#63400 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:41 pm Subject: Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His pgradinarov Dear Howard, Probably the answer is in the rest of the article - if there are namas independent of citta (like space, time, etc.) why should we postulate rupas to be dependent? http://www.ratnavali.com/dharma/teachings/materialism_and_idealism_76 38.html The other answer is already present in your question - knowing something dependently does not make it ontologically dependent on what we find it to be epistemologically. There is a well-known reciprocal law concerning the ontological and epistemological constructions. What comes first in epistemology is last in ontology, and vice versa. The knowledge of rupa is dependent on nama because the knowledge of rupa is itself nama. And the third answer is $1.4 million worth http://www.templetonprize.org/bios.html i.e., citta exerts reverse teleological influence on the rise and evolution of Universe. The problem with the mutual dependence is that we first declare this world to be a beginningless Ignorance and then make it dependent on Knowledge and Consciousness. This kind of flawed argumentation in Indian logic is called sadhyasama because the first assumption itself needs to be proved (sadhya) or taken as self-evident axiom. Fortunately Theravada is more realistic in this respect and does not deny the existence of the external reality. Allow me to conclude on a more optimistic note: This world may not have originated in dependence on our consciousness but the probability is high of its possible destruction because of us. Ask yourselves: When the final goal of Bauddhadharma gets realised and all living beings attain the remainderless nirvana, will this material Universe continue to exist? Kindest regards, Plamen #63401 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His upasaka_howard Hi, Plamen - In a message dated 9/17/06 4:53:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pgradinarov@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Probably the answer is in the rest of the article - if there are > namas independent of citta (like space, time, etc.) why should we > postulate rupas to be dependent? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand this. Space and time are namas? What do they know, and in what way? Namas know. Rupas do not. Space and time are either rupas or merely imagined phenomena (pa~n~natti), but they are surely not namas! Also, my point with regard to rupas being dependent on namas was a matter of pragmatism. Whatever rupas we actually experience are known rupas. We may hypothesize the existence of unknown but existent (i.e. arising and then ceasing) rupas, but, in principle, they are unknown. Could there be such? Who knows! Who CAN know!! ---------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.ratnavali.com/dharma/teachings/materialism_and_idealism_76 > 38.html > > The other answer is already present in your question - knowing > something dependently does not make it ontologically dependent on > what we find it to be epistemologically. There is a well-known > reciprocal law concerning the ontological and epistemological > constructions. What comes first in epistemology is last in ontology, > and vice versa. The knowledge of rupa is dependent on nama because > the knowledge of rupa is itself nama. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: The knowledge (actual knowledge, and not speculation) of *unknown* rupas, however, does not exist. ------------------------------------------------ > > And the third answer is $1.4 million worth > http://www.templetonprize.org/bios.html > i.e., citta exerts reverse teleological influence on the rise and > evolution of Universe. > > The problem with the mutual dependence is that we first declare this > world to be a beginningless Ignorance and then make it dependent on > Knowledge and Consciousness. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I don't take "this world to be a beginningless ignorance" (with or without an upper-case 'I'). I take it to be a reality misperceived. ---------------------------------------- This kind of flawed argumentation in > > Indian logic is called sadhyasama because the first assumption > itself needs to be proved (sadhya) or taken as self-evident axiom. > > Fortunately Theravada is more realistic in this respect and does not > deny the existence of the external reality. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't either, but I simply think that the term 'external' is unnecessary and misleading. The only hardness that I encounter is felt hardness. The only odors I encounter are smelled odors. The only rupas I encounter are known rupas. "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Neither internal nor external, neither a tangle within nor a tangle without. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Allow me to conclude on a more optimistic note: > > This world may not have originated in dependence on our > consciousness but the probability is high of its possible > destruction because of us. > > Ask yourselves: When the final goal of Bauddhadharma gets realised > and all living beings attain the remainderless nirvana, will this > material Universe continue to exist? ----------------------------------------- Howard: If, as according to you, rupas are independent of namas, then yes! The unknown but existent rupas will still be such. Why not? Are you saying that rupas can only arise in mindstreams that can know them? If yes, you are contradicting your own position. ------------------------------------- > > Kindest regards, > > Plamen > ================== With metta, Howard #63402 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:04 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,101 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII [How Ignorance is a condition for Formations] 101. Now as regards these twenty-four conditions: For those of merit ignorance Is a condition in two ways And for the next in many ways But for the last kind only once. *********************** avijjaapaccayaasa"nkhaarapadavitthaarakathaa 101. evamimesu catuviisatiyaa paccayesu aya.m avijjaa, paccayo hoti pu~n~naana.m, duvidhaanekadhaa pana. paresa.m pacchimaana.m saa, ekadhaa paccayo mataati.. #63403 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:25 pm Subject: Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > I am glad. But please, do not think in the way of camps. You used the > word re Kom's post, he had used it. But though people think > differently, is it not better just to exchange views? > Nina. Well, I don't mean any offense by using the word "camp" to describe the followers of KS. I looked up the word to see if I am using it improperly (dictionary.com): a group of people favoring the same ideals, doctrines, etc.: Most American voters are divided into two camps, Republicans and Democrats. 9. any position in which ideals, doctrines, etc., are strongly entrenched: After considering the other side's argument, he changed camps. I think I am using the term properly and there should be no offence to anyone with my use of that term. You say that I shouldn't think in those terms, but that seems like a bizarre request to me. I don't see any reason to deny reality. Metta, James #63404 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >Do you mean the general population? No, the Buddha didn't encourage > >jhana for the general population because not all of them are > >Buddhist. The Buddha had encouraged jhana for those who had taken > >refuge in the Triple Gem. > > > > I'm aware of course of suttas in which the Buddha extolled the > advantages of jhana and encouraged its development. But I know of no > suttas where the development of jhana is encouraged for lay followers in > general. There is a sutta where the Buddha advises a particular group > of lay followers to develop jhana, but I do not read this as applying to > all lay followers generally. Please explain why you don't see this sutta as applying to all lay followers of the Buddha. I know that you don't see it as that way, so please explain why you don't see it as that way. > > >>But you have given a sort of definition of jhana, rather than a > >>description of what it development involves. On that latter I > >>am sure we will manage to find some disagreement, if we discuss ;-)) > >> > >> > > > >Probably the only disagreement we would run into is your belief that > >a person's accumulations is of paramount importance in the > >development of jhana, and my belief that it is of minor importance. > > > > This is an interesting observation on your part, James, and a perceptive > one. Thank you. > > But to get down to specifics, if I was asked to state briefly how I saw > the development of jhana, I'd say that it begins with the development of > samatha in daily life. > > Any disagreement from you so far? ;-)) Yes, I disagree with your use of the word "begins". Jhana doesn't "begin" with samatha in daily life, it is further cultivated and supported by samatha in daily life. It BEGINS with the practice of sitting down, cross legged. with spine erect and focusing on a kasina. > > >;-)) I don't have any 'rules'. If you want to ask me leading > >questions, ask away. But, of course, I will call you on it. Jon, > >you are an attorney so you know what leading questions are. I > >shouldn't have to define them for you. > > > >The significance of leading questions is that the questioner has a > >specific answer in mind. It isn't a genuine question where the > >questioner is seeking information. I believe it is best for > >dialogue between equals to avoid leading questions because they can > >become rather pedantic. (After all, you are not Socrates and I am > >not your student. ;-)) > > > > I'm glad you've clarified this. I'll try to avoid that manner of > expression in future. (After all, I have no wish to be Socrates to > anyone ;-)) Thank you. That would facilite communication much more effectively. > > >>He would not have read that on DSG, I feel sure. > >> > >> > > > >Perhaps I have been reading a different DSG. ;-)) > > > > > > Beware of counterfeits and imitations ;-)) > > >>Anapanasati is the only one of the 38 or 40 'kammatthana' that is > >>said to be the object of samatha of Buddhas and Buddhas' sons, so > >>I think it must require especially great wisdom for its development. > >> > >> > > > >It doesn't 'require' great wisdom, it can develop great wisdom. > > > > > > Jhana is accompanied by the mental factor of panna, which is why it is > such a high level of kusala. Even the development of samatha leading to > jhana requires panna. Otherwise there cannot be direct understanding of > the kusala or aksuala nature of the present mind-state. "Panna" is a rather nebulus term and can be used to apply to many things. What you wrote here doesn't have much meaning to me because it is unspecific. > > Jon > > PS On leading questions: > In the legal context, an attorney is not permitted at trial to ask a > leading question of his own client or witness, as this 'tells' the > client or witness the answer to be given. > However, there is no rule against asking leading questions when > cross-examining the other party or his witnesses. > How this applies in the DSG context depends, I suppose, on whether you > see there being opposing camps (if you do, then you should not object to > leading questions from the other camp ;-)). :-)) Clever. However, this isn't a trial and you shouldn't be trying to discredit my testimony ;-)). Offer your own testimony and let the jury decide. ;-)) > #63405 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:22 pm Subject: Fwd: Love and compassion from Seelagawesi Thero sarahprocter... All, I assume this was meant for DSG.....Sarah ..... --- Wellawatte Seelagawesi Thero wrote: > Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 22:27:36 +0600 > From: "Wellawatte Seelagawesi Thero" > Dear beloved Dhamma friends, > > I am happy to say that we are aware of our Rain Retreat to complete with > selfless joy. So far we have a good feeling of our mission. Sometime > we > experience the failure. We concentrate on that particular incident and > try > to understand the important to find the way to success. Failure does > not > bring any harm. Disappointment regarding the failure brings the harm in > everyway. > > > > We should focus our mind to have a hopeful feeling to achieve the goal > with > right administration. It is very important to understand how to > administrate the failure with full of confidence and concentration. > > > > The following method may help us. > > Be honest and accept the failure. > > Avoid blaming for the failure. > > Try to understand the reason of it. > > Make the mind to be strong to start again. > > Be aware of avoiding haste and restlessness. > > Be aware of inviting calmness and concentration. > > Finding the help with full of mindfulness. > > Make sure that the mind is stable for success. > > Be aware of appropriate application in time. > > Make sure of correct reestablishment of the task. > > Effortless wait for the success. > > > > I hope this will be useful for all of us to be strong with our failure. > This > will also bring us joy to grow with acquired experiential knowledge. > > > > Thank you very much for your kind attention. Make sure that you are > wise to > experience the serenity of the life. May you gain energy for > contentment of > the life! > > > > With much love and compassion, > > > > Seelagawesi Thero > #63406 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:12 pm Subject: Re: Multiple-Mindstream Interaction Revisited sukinderpal Hi Howard, ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > What an arrogant presumption! From the time of the Buddha. monks, > nuns, and laypersons meditated, correctly meditated. Those who do *not* meditate > are out of step with the Dhamma, not the meditators! I think that I will bow > out now. I see no gain in this. > ---------------------------------------- Not only is there always a better way to state one's opinions, but also a better time. Some view points may better be expressed in small installments, and this requires not only discernment, but also patience. I got carried away as I often do and expressed myself on matters which may not have been necessary at this point. In fact on some points I was thinking about the larger audience, instead I should have addressed only those points that were more relevant, and should not have thrown that whole thing upon you. I apologize for this Howard, and will try to be more careful in the future. But of course we can drop this discussion; my writing this is not in any way meant to persuade you to change your mind about this. Metta, Sukin #63407 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His pgradinarov Dear Howard, > Space and time are namas? What do they know, > and in what way? Namas know. Rupas do not. Space and time are either rupas or > merely imagined phenomena (pa~n~natti), but they are surely not namas! This is a matter of Abhidharma. Local Space (desa) and time (kala) are listed among the regular samskaras in ant 100-dharma Abhidharma list. And are not listed as rupas in any list. Ether (akasa) again, which is the cosmological Space, is neither rupa, nor samskara - how could it be conditioned by citta if it is unconditioned (asamskrta)? And finally, how would abhidhammikas explain the citta-dependence of the sankkhara-dhammas that are by default visamyutta (undependent, dissociated) from citta? > Also, my point with regard to rupas being dependent on namas was a > matter of pragmatism. Whatever rupas we actually experience are known rupas. We > may hypothesize the existence of unknown but existent (i.e. arising and then > ceasing) rupas, but, in principle, they are unknown. Could there be such? Who > knows! Who CAN know!! Buddha can. He is omniscient. Just because we can't does not mean Buddhism is practical agnosticism. > The knowledge (actual knowledge, and not speculation) of *unknown* > rupas, however, does not exist. There are lots of things in the Universe still unknown to this limited human mind. Does the fact of their stil-unknown-ness make them inexistent? > The only hardness that I encounter is felt hardness. The > only odors I encounter are smelled odors. The only rupas I encounter are known > rupas. This is exactly my point. We make our ignorance ontological factor, we turn our human limitations into constituents of matter. How is this different from the famous slogan of subjective idealism, Esse is percipi? The fact that officially there is no subject does not make this kind of idealism less subjective. Kindest regards, Plamen #63408 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] just like now. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > You put that very well. We expect another answer, but this is more > helpful. .... S: And as you wrote in Letter 56 "we should understand the goal of his teachings: purification through the development of right understanding now, always now, whether one likes to hear it or not." You stressed the reminders K.Sujin always gives us about just how ordinary the development of satipatthana is and her words that "all that matters is the development of understanding". Metta, Sarah > Op 17-sep-2006, om 15:15 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > I think a reminder along these lines is more useful than any > > description > > of the actual thoughts or reactions experienced at the time. Of > > course, > > it may not be the kind of answer we were looking for ;-)) #63409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: camps, loss and death nilovg Hi James, I get your point. You are a good and patient teacher of English. How is it going in Taiwan? No matter in what camp, we are all studying Dhamma. No matter in what camp, we all have losses and experience the death of dear ones. A question is on my mind I wanted to ask you for some time. Lodewijk and I are two oldies and naturally loss through death comes to our minds. I know it is just thinking, but it is conditioned. Some time ago there were helpful posts on death by Han, Scott and others, but I missed your input. You experienced the loss of brother and sister, and how did you overcome your losses? If others also have an input, it is not too late. Nina. Op 18-sep-2006, om 5:25 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > any position in which ideals, doctrines, etc., are strongly > entrenched: After considering the other side's argument, he changed > camps. #63410 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:09 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 523- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (t) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The last pair of sobhana cetasikas is: uprightness of cetasika, kåya-ujukatå uprightness of citta, citta-ujukatå According to the Dhammasangaùi (§ 50, 51) this pair of cetasikas consists in straightness and rectitude, being without deflection, twist or crookedness. The Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part IV, Chapter I, 131) explains that uprightness of cetasikas and of citta crush crookedness and that they are the opponents of the corruptions, such as deception and craftiness, which cause crookedness in mental factors and consciousness(1). *** 1) See also the Visuddhimagga, X1V, 149 ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63411 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] just like now. nilovg Dear Sarah, this is certainly true. At the same time I would like to say that Kh Sujin has written a whole book about the perfections to be developed, and how? In our social live together with other people. She also wrote a book about metta: to be developed with right understanding and in our social life. I like to add this because it possibly may seem to others that we only want to live in the world of paramattha dhammas, and this is not according to fact. Perhaps we should explain again and again that we do not deny our socail life and that we do not wish to think of concepts. I know that some people, like Lodewijk, get this impression. On us the task to show that there is no contradiction, that there should always be a balance. Nina. Op 18-sep-2006, om 9:36 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: And as you wrote in Letter 56 "we should understand the goal of his > teachings: purification through the development of right understanding > now, always now, whether one likes to hear it or not." > > You stressed the reminders K.Sujin always gives us about just how > ordinary > the development of satipatthana is and her words that "all that > matters is > the development of understanding". #63412 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His jonoabb Hi Howard and Plamen upasaka@... wrote: >Hi, Plamen - > >In a message dated 9/17/06 4:53:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >pgradinarov@... writes: > > > >>Dear Howard, >> >>Probably the answer is in the rest of the article - if there are >>namas independent of citta (like space, time, etc.) why should we >>postulate rupas to be dependent? >> >> > >-------------------------------------------------- >Howard: > I don't understand this. Space and time are namas? What do they know, >and in what way? Namas know. Rupas do not. Space and time are either rupas or >merely imagined phenomena (pa~n~natti), but they are surely not namas! > > Plamen, I agree with what Howard says here. (Conventional) time and space are mere concepts. > Also, my point with regard to rupas being dependent on namas was a >matter of pragmatism. Whatever rupas we actually experience are known rupas. We >may hypothesize the existence of unknown but existent (i.e. arising and then >ceasing) rupas, but, in principle, they are unknown. Could there be such? Who >knows! Who CAN know!! > > Howard, if you are saying that even a Buddha could not know this from direct experience, then I'm wondering on what basis. The scope of a Buddha's knowledge is one of the 'imponderables'. Do you find the logic of what you say here so compelling? But I can in fact conceive of more than one way in which the matter could be known or safely inferred. If in regard to rupas that are actually experienced either: (a) it is known that they had already arisen by the time they became the object of that experience, or (b) the conditions for their arising are known and those conditions do not include being the object of consciousness, then it would be apparent that those rupas at least had an 'existence' that was independent of namas. Regardless of whether we think the matter is capable of verification, however, I'd suggest we cannot just say that we will not contemplate the possibility because we have come to the conclusion that the matter is beyond proof. That seems to be a rather 'head in the sand' approach ;-)). Why not leave it as an open question? Jon #63413 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Vis. 96, postnascence. sarahprocter... Dear Howard (& Nina), I thought you were raising good questions about postnascence (and prenascence) conditions. Even though we cannot directly know a lot of the details about dhammas that we read about, slowly by developing more firm confidence in the nature of conditions, we come closer to really understanding how all namas and rupas interract and are conditioned. You often refer to (rightly) how other rupas than the one appearing now are not directly known. This could also be said about the interraction of namas and rupas at this moment which you have a lot of confidence in. At the moment a rupa is experienced, just that rupa appears, for example. This was a good point too: .... > > H: When the rupa first arose "one citta" was aware of it, and now > it is > > "another citta" being aware of it, but the knowing is always "in the > > present" and > > not something going backwards in time, right? > > -------- > > N: It seems that your take is that each rupa that arises is known but > > this is not so. ... > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > That wasn't my point. I'm talking about the rupas that are known. > --------------------------------------- > N: These are ruupas appearing now. .... S: I think I know what you (Howard) were getting at. The rupa has already risen by prenascence condition, but the namas arising now are 'consolidating' or supporting it in the present. Yes, it just means present support for the rupa now which has already arisen prior to such support. Appreciating this helps us to understand that namas and rupas arise by their own complex conditions and do not arise together at the same moment (with the exception of the patisandhi citta and rupas at the first moment of life). I'm just picking up on this point because I think you and Nina were having a good discussion and that there's something significant with regard to this detail which may affect your view of the arising and falling away of countless rupas all the time. Please let us know if it all 'hangs together' better now. ***** Nina, at the end of this good discussion with Howard, you refer to K.Sujin referring to a commentary which talks about how "there are 52 cetasikas, but with citta in addition we could speak of 53". You've mentioned this before and I've also heard her mention it, but I think K.Sujin is referring to there being 53 namas, not 53 cetasikas. *** On the interesting point (briefly referred to) about the translation of chanda (as 'wish' or 'interest in', I personally think that 'wish' is a more common translation but 'interest in' is more accurate. Howard may have some ideas too. It would be good to have other input. Usually when we use 'wish' in English, it seems to me that it always has a connotation of attachment involved. It's difficult to think of an example of a wholesome 'wish'. When it comes to 'interest in', I think it's more of a neutral term that can be used in a wholesome or unwholesome sense, more appropriate to kusala or akusala chanda. For example, one may have a kusala interest in considering the Dhamma or an akusala interest in the latest news or even one's Dhamma study for that moment. It can change from moment to moment. I think many terms we use in translation of Pali terms are inaccurate and sometimes we just follow conventional translations, so we don't need to be over-concerned. It's the understanding that counts:-). Metta, Sarah ========= #63414 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi James (and all) buddhatrue wrote: >>There is a sutta where the Buddha advises a particular group >>of lay followers to develop jhana, but I do not read this as >>applying to all lay followers generally. >> >> > >Please explain why you don't see this sutta as applying to all lay >followers of the Buddha. I know that you don't see it as that way, >so please explain why you don't see it as that way. > > Happy to do so, but need to find the sutta first. Any ideas which sutta this is, anyone? Jon #63415 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. nilovg Dear Scott, this is a letter you wrote before my trip. It is natural that expectation, which is lobha cetasika, arises time and again. We have not eradicated lobha. It is good if there is understanding that knows when we are going off track, even a little. Even after having realised stages of insight one can still mislead oneself, be attached to moments of sati, as I understood from Kh Sujin. Anyway, it is good to know this. Nina. Op 10-sep-2006, om 21:42 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > N: "...It is understandable that one hopes for the arising of sati, > but, as Kh Sujin often reminds us, expectation is counteractive. When > we hope, then the case is hopeless! There is more to say, but I have > to leave it at this now." > > I'd like to learn more of this. Let's say, as it seemed, that the > thought, "I hope for the arising of sati," for example, just arose, > was expressed then fell away. How might this make the case hopeless? > > Is this merely subtle self? Is "expectation" a cetasika or just > thinking? I suppose wrong view and ignorance could condition the > thought "I hope..." #63416 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His sarahprocter... Hi Howard & Plamen, --- upasaka@... wrote: P:> > Probably the answer is in the rest of the article - if there are > > namas independent of citta (like space, time, etc.) why should we > > postulate rupas to be dependent? > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't understand this. Space and time are namas? What do they > know, > and in what way? Namas know. Rupas do not. Space and time are either > rupas or > merely imagined phenomena (pa~n~natti), but they are surely not namas! ... S: Yes, I also wondered what was meant. Well said. Time is a concept, an idea and space has two or three meanings, but can refer to the rupa arising between groups of rupas and dependent on them. ... > Also, my point with regard to rupas being dependent on namas was > a > matter of pragmatism. Whatever rupas we actually experience are known > rupas. We > may hypothesize the existence of unknown but existent (i.e. arising and > then > ceasing) rupas, but, in principle, they are unknown. Could there be > such? Who > knows! Who CAN know!! ... S: Even what you refer to as the 'known rupas', ie 'experienced by cittas' rupas are mostly not directly understood or the object of any awareness. However, I think it's important to understand even theoretically what is right in order to 'wear away' our erroneous ideas about what is experienced and what can be known and so on. .... > Howard: > I don't either, but I simply think that the term 'external' is > unnecessary and misleading. The only hardness that I encounter is felt > hardness. ... S: I agree that we don't have to think in terms of 'internal' and 'external'. Hardness is hardness when experienced. ... >The > only odors I encounter are smelled odors. The only rupas I encounter are > known > rupas. > "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to > the > seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the > heard. In > reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, > only > the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there > will be > only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to > the > heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in > reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of > that. When there > is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you > there, > you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is > the > end of stress." .... S: And appreciating that these are the dhammas experienced can be a condition for them to be directly known at this moment. ... > Howard: > If, as according to you, rupas are independent of namas, then > yes! The > unknown but existent rupas will still be such. Why not? Are you saying > that > rupas can only arise in mindstreams that can know them? If yes, you are > contradicting your own position. > ------------------------------------- ... S: :-) Well said. A good discussion! I can think of other friends who're not around at the moment who'd be enjoying it too. Metta, Sarah ====== #63417 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nilovg Hi Jon, James, Before James quoted a sutta I think about Anathapindika together with a few hundred layfollowers, his friends, and they were encouraged to retire. Difficult for James to find, because he does not have the suttas with him. Gradual S. or S.N.? We discussed this with Kh Sujin who said that at that time people did not have misunderstandings about samatha and vipassana. I think, that they would understand how to develop calm together with satipatthana. Nina. Op 18-sep-2006, om 11:05 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > Any ideas which sutta this is, anyone? #63418 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Vis. 96, postnascence. nilovg Dear Sarah, just a point to add: the citta that produces rupas such as gestures arises together with rupa. All over the body citta is one of the factors that produces rupas and also in that case, if I am not mistaken, citta arises at the same time with those rupas. Perhaps Larry can add something. Nina. Op 18-sep-2006, om 10:39 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Appreciating this helps us to understand that namas and rupas arise by > their own complex conditions and do not arise together at the same > moment > (with the exception of the patisandhi citta and rupas at the first > moment > of life). #63419 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:32 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 101, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 101. Intro: After having dealt with the twentyfour conditions as taught by the Buddha in the Pa.t.thaana, the Visuddhimagga now begins to explain the Dependent Origination, the conditional arising of the factors that cause us to be in the cycle of birth and death, beginning with ignorance. The Dependent Origination cannot be understood without having studied the twentyfour conditions and these have to be reviewed time and again. The Dependent Origination pertains to the conditions for the arising of naama and ruupa in our daily life. For each link of the Dependent Origination the relevant conditioning factors should be understood. The Tiika reviews the twentyfour conditions in classifying them in various ways. Summarizing them, they are: root-condition (hetu-paccaya) object-condition (åramma.na-paccaya) predominance-condition (adhipati-paccaya) proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya) contiguity-condition (samanantara-paccaya) conascence-condition (sahajåta-paccaya) mutuality-condition (aññamañña-paccaya) dependence-condition (nissaya-paccaya) decisive support-condition (upanissaya-paccaya) prenascence-condition (purejåta-paccaya) postnascence-condition (pacchåjåta-paccaya) repetition-condition (åsevana-paccaya) kamma-condition (kamma-paccaya) vipåka-condition (vipåka-paccaya) nutriment-condition (åhåra-paccaya) faculty-condition (indriya-paccaya) jhåna-condition (jhåna-paccaya) path-condition (magga-paccaya) association-condition (sampayutta-paccaya) dissociation-condition (vippayutta-paccaya) presence-condition (atthi-paccaya) absence-condition (natthi-paccaya) disappearance-condition (vigata-paccaya) non-disappearance-condition (avigata-paccaya) __________ The Tiika explains that nine conditioning factors pertain only to naama, and these are the conditions of object, proximity, contiguity, strong-dependence, repetition, association, absence and disappearance. Object is only a condition for naama, ruupa does not experience any object. As to proximity, contiguity, absence and disappearance, these pertain to each citta that conditions the arising of the next citta. As to repetition-condition, this pertains to javana-citta that conditions the arising of the next javana-citta. As to association-condition, this pertains to the citta and cetasikas that arise together and are closely associated. The Tiika explains that prenascence-condition only pertains to ruupa. The ruupa that is the physical base and the ruupa that is sense- object have to arise before the citta which it conditions. The Tiika explains that the remaining fourteen conditions pertain to naama and ruupa. The conditioning factors that are only naama are the following: the conditions of root, proximity, contiguity, repetition, postnascence, kamma, vipaaka, jhaana, magga, association, absence and disappearance. The conditioning factor of prenascence is only ruupa. The conditioning factors can be classified as past, present and future. Those which are only of the past are: proximity, contiguity, repetition, absence and disappearance. They condition the arising of the next citta after they have fallen away. The conditions of object, predominance of object, and decisive support of object are of the past, the present and the future (tikalika). Citta can cognise an object of the past, a present object or a future object. Nibbaana and concepts are time-freed (kaala vinimutta). Nibbaana is the unconditioned dhamma, it does not arise and fall away. Therefore, past, present and future are not applicable to nibbaana. Concepts are not ultimate realities, they do not arise and fall away, they are merely objects of thinking. As to kamma-condition this can be of the past and the present. Kamma is cetanaa cetasika, and this can refer to kamma that has fallen away and can produce vipaaka later on, thus, kamma operating from a different time. Or it can refer to the cetanaa cetasika that accompanies each citta, and thus, that is conascent kamma. As to the remaining fifteen conditioning factors, these pertain to the present. The conditioning dhammas can assist the conditioned dhammas by way of producing, by way of support or by way of both. The Tiika explains that proximity-condition, contiguity-condition, decisive support of proximity, natural decisive support-condition, repetition-condition, kamma-condition operating from a different time, absence-condition and disappearance-condition are only producing conditions, not supporting conditions. Postnascence-condition is only a supportive condition. Each citta supports the prearisen ruupas. The other conditioning factors are producing and supporting conditions. ------------------- Text Vis. 101. [How Ignorance is a condition for Formations] Now as regards these twenty-four conditions: For those of merit ignorance is a condition in two ways and for the next in many ways but for the last kind only once. --------- The Tiika states that this is an explanation in detail of the fact that ignorance conditions formations. In the following paragraphs it will be explained how ignorance is a condition in two ways for kusala kamma, in many ways for akusala kamma and in one way for imperturbable kamma (aruupa jhaana). ------- Conclusion: The Buddha taught the conditions for each reality which arises. Everything that arises must have conditions, otherwise it could not arise. These conditions are not abstractions, they occur now, in our daily life. What we take for our mind and our body are only elements which arise because of their appropriate conditions and are devoid of self. The study of conditions helps us to have more understanding of the factors which cause us to continue being in the cycle of birth and death. Because of ignorance and clinging life has to go on and on, until there is the elimination of the cause of rebirth. There is no self who chose to be in the cycle of birth and death and there is no self who can eliminate the cause of rebirth. Everything occurs according to conditions, but this should not make us desperate. When we hear the Dhamma and consider it, we learn how to develop the right conditions leading to the end of dukkha. It is fully developed pa~n~naa that can eradicate ignorance. ******* Nina. #63420 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:34 am Subject: RE: [dsg] too distracted, and renunciation. sarahprocter... Dear Sukin (Scott,Ken H), --- sukinder wrote: > S: I think this quote from 'Perfections' is also relevant to the > discussions we were having about the development of the perfections even > in those lives when there was no Buddha's teaching and so on. KS was > talking on this topic of the effect of satipatthana in other lives, > depending on its strength. Do you have any further comments, Sukin? > Sukin:> Nothing useful I guess, but since you ask I began speculating a bit and > this > is what came to mind. > > Surely the quality of citta is different, one that has in the past > accumulated much right view from the one that hasn't. So at any given > lifetime where the Teachings do not exist, perhaps there is a strong > tendency to cling to kusala with 'self-view' on the part of the latter > and > not so much with the former? .... S: I think that the more satipatthana has been developed previously, the less wrong views of all kinds are likely to arise. Also, kilesa are not likely to be as gross - less likely to breach the precepts for example than if no satipatthana had ever been developed perhaps. ... >In this way there is in the case of one > with > much accumulated right view, the possibility of some kusala cittas being > parami ..? :-/ ... S: Yes, again, we don't need to think about the word 'parami', but 'goodness' (to use KS's term) of all kind is likely to be conditioned by pakatupanissaya paccaya (which Scott's floating along in these days:-)). The effect of accumulations can be anytime, of course. This also touched on a point of Ken H's which I raised about those reborn in heavenly realms being able to remember having heard the teachings and so on and to develop satipatthana even if no teachings are available. Scott, thanks for the clarification of your e-card from the Patthana. I wasn't sure if it was a meditation induced bliss or a textual induced one:-)). Why not let us know what you're finding of special interest/help? Metta, Sarah p.s Sukin, I think you and Howard are having a good discussion. Of course we all sometimes press the wrong button, but 'it's gone' and we just keep doing our best according to our very limited understandings. We never know what the effect will be on others according to (their)accumulations and pakatupanissaya. As we discussed, some people get upset about K.Sujin's comments too, but it doesn't mean that she (or you) should keep quiet. =================== #63421 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >>But to get down to specifics, if I was asked to state briefly how >>I saw the development of jhana, I'd say that it begins with the >>development of samatha in daily life. >> >>Any disagreement from you so far? ;-)) >> >> > >Yes, I disagree with your use of the word "begins". Jhana >doesn't "begin" with samatha in daily life, it is further cultivated >and supported by samatha in daily life. It BEGINS with the practice >of sitting down, cross legged. with spine erect and focusing on a >kasina. > > Then it seems we disagree right from the beginning ;-)). But let us discuss. What is the basis for your view that the development of jhana begins with the practice of sitting cross-legged etc? >>Jhana is accompanied by the mental factor of panna, which is why >>it is such a high level of kusala. Even the development of >>samatha leading to jhana requires panna. Otherwise there cannot >>be direct understanding of the kusala or aksuala nature of the >>present mind-state. >> >> > >"Panna" is a rather nebulus term and can be used to apply to many >things. What you wrote here doesn't have much meaning to me because >it is unspecific. > > OK, let me give an example to illustrate. Metta is a mental quality. When metta arises in daily life, as it no doubt does for all of us from time to time, the consciousness is kusala (wholesome). In the suttas kusala consciousness is classified as 3-fold: dana (generosity), sila (restraint, morality) and bhavana (mental development) being either samatha (tranquility) or vipassana (insight). Under this classification moments of metta are samatha (although they may also be considered as a form of dana, or sila). But without the co arising of panna, such moments of metta are not samatha of the degree that leads to the development of jhana. The mere accumulation of metta will never lead to jhana. It is the arising of metta accompanied by panna of the appropriate degree that does this. I hope this makes my earlier statement clearer. >>However, there is no rule against asking leading questions when >>cross-examining the other party or his witnesses. >>How this applies in the DSG context depends, I suppose, on whether >>you see there being opposing camps (if you do, then you should not >>object to leading questions from the other camp ;-)). >> >> > >:-)) Clever. However, this isn't a trial and you shouldn't be >trying to discredit my testimony ;-)). Offer your own testimony and >let the jury decide. ;-)) > > I have already rested my case (and stared at the jurors with my piercing blue eyes; I hope you're ready for an unfavourable verdict). Jon #63422 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: too distracted sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Connie), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Yeah so the pleasure and pain are already just the show. Enjoying the > band is not the result. ... S: You got it! ... Deafened by loud sound only. ... S: Well maybe also by the impact on the body-sense (around what we take for the ear) too! .... >Seeing and > hearing, smelling and tasting alone is eyes, ears, nose, mouth and > objects. Only result. ... S: Yes. And then the rest are the accumulations which cannot be blamed on anyone or anything at all, no matter how unpleasant those sounds might seem:-). ... >She dreamt of being scared of water and floods > but woke up only wet and suddenly I'm all indifferent except body and > now its pleasant or unpleasant body sense right from the start and I'm > like huh? .... S: And do you remind me of Connie-girl:-) You see, Connie, one person who completely understands you:-)). A good example of the experience of rupas conditioning all sorts or weird dreams (just like when we're awake too) and those dreams can be a condition for the experience of other rupas too, like nervousness or worry conditioning sweaty rupas.... .... > > (S): "(Scott, I never worked out your one-liner about being in the > bliss of the ocean of pakatupanissaya paccaya.....did I miss > something?)" > > (No, I was just posting to show I was still around since I've been > studying and reading a lot more than posting these days; I just was > into pakatupanissaya paccaya at the moment and found it cool.) ... S: I may as well respond twice as I'm here and say I'm glad you're finding this ocean cool rather than too wet. Pls share any extracts that you think others would also find cool. Metta, Sarah ======= #63423 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His pgradinarov Dear Jon and Sarah! > (Conventional) time and > space are mere concepts. I agree. Conventional space (desa) is dependent on the distance between (collocation) and velocity of the material systems. Time is the measure of mental phenomena and the "substance" of vitarka and vicara, so it is instrumental to acquiring prajna. It is also concomitant with such namas as jati, sthiti, jara, aniyata. Hence time is contingent on citta and there are many philosophers who think that time is the citta-rahasya (the secret of consciousness). BTW, I don't think there is absolute time in Buddhism as there is absolute space (akasa). Yet, if we concede that there is a kind of bhavanga-sota of Bauddha- darsana, continuity of Buddhist philosophy, we will have to answer this question: What made the authors of the extended Abdhidharma lists include both desa and kala in the group of citta-viprayukta-samskara-dharmas (citta-vippayutta-sankkhara-dhammas)? Why are they listed as regular namas possessing dravya-sat rather than merely prajnapti-sat? Isn't citta-viprayukta pointing to the fact that desa and kala are dependent on rupa but independent of citta? Thank you for the interesting discussion! Kindest regards, Plamen #63424 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: too distracted scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. A little help still required: Me: "She dreamt of being scared of water and floods but woke up only wet and suddenly I'm all indifferent except body and now its pleasant or unpleasant body sense right from the start and I'm like huh?" That was a (too) cryptic request for clarification, actually. Is body sense vipaaka pleasant or unpleasant (either 'pleasure' or 'pain') simply because there is no indifferent body sense? S: "...I'm glad you're finding this ocean cool rather than too wet." Like I said, beautiful. With loving kindness, Scott. #63425 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Vis. 96, postnascence. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Larry, Yes, good examples. I was not specific enough. In the context of the discussion I was thinking of the bases (body-sense etc) necessarily arising before the consciousness (body-consciousness etc) by prenascence condition and the cittas giving support by postnascence condition which I thought Howard picked up on. As you suggest, I'm sure cittas can also condition rupas to arise together. You mention rupas such as gestures, but I think other rupas too, such as when someone blushes or sweats when nervous. Yes, Larry, we don't hear much from you these days. Maybe you can add some helpful Vism or CMA quotes! Metta, Sarah --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > just a point to add: the citta that produces rupas such as gestures > arises together with rupa. All over the body citta is one of the > factors that produces rupas and also in that case, if I am not > mistaken, citta arises at the same time with those rupas. Perhaps > Larry can add something. #63426 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:21 pm Subject: Clear & Aware Comprehension !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is Awareness and Clear Comprehension! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu should dwell aware and clearly comprehending! This is our instruction to you. How, Bhikkhus, is a Bhikkhu Aware? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu lives contemplating these four objects: 1: Body as a mere form: Just a group of foul & fragile organs... 2: Feeling as a reactive response assigned to any contact... 3: Mind as only a changing set of mentalities & moods... 4: Phenomena simply as momentary mental states... While being keen, ardent, clearly comprehending, and acutely aware, thereby removing covetousness, lust, greed, envy and any discontent, displeasure and frustration rooted in this world. It is in this very way, Bhikkhus, that a Bhikkhu is Aware... And how, Bhikkhus, does a Bhikkhu train clear comprehension? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu is one who acts clearly comprehending just exactly whatever he is doing right now, while going forward or back; when looking ahead or looking aside; when flexing or extending limbs; when wearing robes & carrying his bowl; when eating, drinking, tasting & chewing food; when defecating & urinating; when walking, standing, sitting; when falling asleep, waking up, speaking, & when keeping silent! It is indeed in such a way that a Bhikkhu lives in clear comprehension... Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu should dwell aware and clearly comprehending. This is our instruction to you! Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 142] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 2 Mindful... See also these inspirations on Acute Awareness & Clear Comprehension: Awareness (Sati): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm The Four Foundations of Awareness (satipatthana) http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Causes_of_sati.htm The Right Awareness Path Factor (samma-sati-magganga) http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm Training of Clear Comprehension (sampajanna): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Clear_Comprehension.htm Training of the Four Foundations of Awareness (satipatthana): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/Manual/Meditation.Manual.htm Further studies in this universally superb & open mental state: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Sati_Studies.htm ---------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63427 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you for: N: "It is natural that expectation, which is lobha cetasika, arises time and again. We have not eradicated lobha. It is good if there is understanding that knows when we are going off track, even a little. Even after having realised stages of insight one can still mislead oneself, be attached to moments of sati, as I understood from Kh Sujin. Anyway, it is good to know this. It is good to know and hard. Clinging to self-view one would like to think that one can hope for good things, or that hoping for good things is a good thing. That this is lobha cetasika arising time and again and nothing more is a blow to self-view and shakes it to its core yet it persists. Would it be fair to say that, conditioned by or due to ignorance, even sati can be subsumed by lobha? Maybe 'consumed' is a better word since lobha is like a mouth that is always hungry and a belly that is never satisfied. With loving kindness, Scott. #63428 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] too distracted, and renunciation. jonoabb Hi Sukin (and Sarah) sukinder wrote: >Dear Sarah, > >... >Surely the quality of citta is different, one that has in the past >accumulated much right view from the one that hasn't. > > I'm not sure, but I think sanna has a role to play here. If sanna in the past has as it were done its marking of objects with right view then when objects are recognised in subsequent lives it carries more of a flavour of right view. Something like that. Similar to what you say below, perhaps? Jon >So at any given >lifetime where the Teachings do not exist, perhaps there is a strong >tendency to cling to kusala with 'self-view' on the part of the latter and >not so much with the former? In this way there is in the case of one with >much accumulated right view, the possibility of some kusala cittas being >parami ..? :-/ > > #63429 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 6 jonoabb Hi Nina I was interested to see the reference to samatha jhana and vipassana jhana. Just a couple of questions if I may. Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Dear friends, > >Continuation of Dhamma talk by Venerable Sujivo. > >does not necessary mean something that occurs in samatha, pure >tranquillity meditation, alone. It can also be applied to experiences >of concentration within the vipassana meditation. Therefore there are >such things as samatha jhanas, that means the jhanas or the type of >absorptions that occur in pure tranquillity meditations, and >vipassana jhanas, the other type of tranquillity or absorptions that >occur in vipassana meditation. > >What is the general idea behind the word 'jhana'? 'Jhana' usually >means strong concentration fixed on the object. Here we quote an >excerpt from a book written by Mahasi Sayadaw, The Wheel of Dhamma: > >"Jhana means closely observing an object with fixed attention. >Concentrated attention given to a selected object of meditation, such >as breathing for tranquillity concentration, gives rise to samatha >jhana, whereas noting the characteristic nature of mind and body and >contemplating on their impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and >insubstantiality brings about vipassana jhana. There are two types of >jhanasamatha jhana and vipassana jhana. Fixed attention that develops >into tranquillity is called samatha jhana. Contemplating on the three >characteristics constitutes vipassana jhana. There are also three >kinds of samadhi (concentration): momentary, access and absorption >concentration." > > My questions are: 1. Did the Ven. author give any references for the use of the terms samatha jhana and vipassana jhana? 2. I have always assumed that the terms upacara samadhi and appana samadhi apply only in the context of samatha jhana and not in the context of vipassana jhana (which would be khanika samadhi). Is this in fact so? Thanks in advance. Jon #63430 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi Nina (and James) Thanks for taking the trouble to come in here. With a little help from Sarah, I've found the sutta (it's AN V, 176, included in the Bodhi anthology). It gets a passing mention in the DPPN also. Jon Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Hi Jon, James, >Before James quoted a sutta I think about Anathapindika together with >a few hundred layfollowers, his friends, and they were encouraged to >retire. Difficult for James to find, because he does not have the >suttas with him. Gradual S. or S.N.? >We discussed this with Kh Sujin who said that at that time people did >not have misunderstandings about samatha and vipassana. >I think, that they would understand how to develop calm together with >satipatthana. >Nina. > > #63431 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Multiple-Mindstream Interaction Revisited upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 9/18/06 1:15:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > What an arrogant presumption! From the time of the Buddha. > monks, > >nuns, and laypersons meditated, correctly meditated. Those who do > *not* meditate > >are out of step with the Dhamma, not the meditators! I think that I > will bow > >out now. I see no gain in this. > >---------------------------------------- > > Not only is there always a better way to state one's opinions, but also a > better time. Some view points may better be expressed in small > installments, and this requires not only discernment, but also patience. I > got carried away as I often do and expressed myself on matters which > may not have been necessary at this point. In fact on some points I was > thinking about the larger audience, instead I should have addressed only > those points that were more relevant, and should not have thrown that > whole thing upon you. I apologize for this Howard, and will try to be > more careful in the future. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sukin, I thank you and admire you for saying this. Your words could (and should) have well been mine also. After I wrote my angry reply, while I didn't (and still do not) disagree with much of the substance of what I wrote, I did (and do) feel great regret for the unkindness of its expression and for not censoring my speech. But I held back in saying this to you. You have done better in this than I. You have my apology as well, my friend. ------------------------------------------------- > > But of course we can drop this discussion; my writing this is not in any > way meant to persuade you to change your mind about this. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you. I do think that it might be best to at least postpone our discussion of this particular matter for a while. There may just be too great a distance between our perspectives, and the topic appears to be too "touchy" (too basic, perhaps) to fruitfully continue with discussing it right now. Perhaps we can come back to it at some time. ------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sukin > ======================== Again, I appreciate your admirable response in this! With metta, Howard #63432 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:44 am Subject: How do the great elements appear? pgradinarov Dear Nina, > What would the body be like without citta that supports it? It would > collapse, be a dead body. We all agree on this. But provided this is the only meaning of Buddhist category of rupa, then whatever rupa is found outside the human (or any sentient) body should not be included in the volume of this category, because it does not demonstrate whatever dependence on citta (except ecological in the limited space of Earth and the near cosmos). Would the sun collapse if no consciousness is supporting it? Which are the conditions for the rise of the sun? According to Lokapannatti, these are the four mahabhutani (evolving from subtle to more coarse) and the accumulated karma which is the ultimate causa efficiens of the cosmogonic process. No citta. It is even not clear where the citta comes from in terms of evolution of Universe. Except what is said in Agganna-Sutta. Best regards, Plamen #63433 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/18/06 4:40:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard and Plamen > > upasaka@... wrote: > > >Hi, Plamen - > > > >In a message dated 9/17/06 4:53:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >pgradinarov@... writes: > > > > > > > >>Dear Howard, > >> > >>Probably the answer is in the rest of the article - if there are > >>namas independent of citta (like space, time, etc.) why should we > >>postulate rupas to be dependent? > >> > >> > > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't understand this. Space and time are namas? What do they know, > >and in what way? Namas know. Rupas do not. Space and time are either rupas > or > >merely imagined phenomena (pa~n~natti), but they are surely not namas! > > > > > > Plamen, I agree with what Howard says here. (Conventional) time and > space are mere concepts. > > > Also, my point with regard to rupas being dependent on namas was a > >matter of pragmatism. Whatever rupas we actually experience are known > rupas. We > >may hypothesize the existence of unknown but existent (i.e. arising and > then > >ceasing) rupas, but, in principle, they are unknown. Could there be such? > Who > >knows! Who CAN know!! > > > > > > Howard, if you are saying that even a Buddha could not know this from > direct experience, then I'm wondering on what basis. The scope of a > Buddha's knowledge is one of the 'imponderables'. Do you find the logic > of what you say here so compelling? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: When a buddha or anyone knows a rupa, it is a known rupa. But an alleged rupa that arose and ceased without a buddha or anyone having been conscious of it was, as already indicated, not known and now gone, and hence only hypothesized. An unknown is, in fact, not known. That is what 'unknown' means. Also, when a buddha is aware of something with wisdom, the wisdom is concomitant to citta. Wisdom doesn't operate on its own. What is not the object of a citta is not known at all. The issue at hand is the presumption that there exist rupas that are not known at all, that are entirely unknown. My reply is that, by definition, that is not knowable. This is utterly straightforward and without doubt. The only phenomena that anyone can be certain of are observed phenomena. May unobserved ones exist? Perhaps. But that is not knowable. ---------------------------------------------------- > > But I can in fact conceive of more than one way in which the matter > could be known or safely inferred. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: So can I, Jon. That isn't the issue. I'm talking about certainty, not surmising or conceiving. I could come up with plausible scenarios as well. Of course. ---------------------------------------------------- If in regard to rupas that are > > actually experienced either: > (a) it is known that they had already arisen by the time they became the > object of that experience, or > (b) the conditions for their arising are known and those conditions do > not include being the object of consciousness, > then it would be apparent that those rupas at least had an 'existence' > that was independent of namas. > > Regardless of whether we think the matter is capable of verification, > however, I'd suggest we cannot just say that we will not contemplate the > possibility because we have come to the conclusion that the matter is > beyond proof. That seems to be a rather 'head in the sand' approach > ;-)). Why not leave it as an open question? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: It IS an open question. That is exactly my point. I do not claim any certainty at all that there are no unobserved rupas. How could I? I merely dispute a claim of certainty of the existence of unobserved rupas. -------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ======================= With metta, Howard #63434 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] just like now. jonoabb Hi Nina (and Sarah) Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Dear Sarah, > >this is certainly true. At the same time I would like to say that Kh >Sujin has written a whole book about the perfections to be developed, >and how? In our social live together with other people. She also >wrote a book about metta: to be developed with right understanding >and in our social life. > >I like to add this because it possibly may seem to others that we >only want to live in the world of paramattha dhammas, and this is not >according to fact. > > This is true, of course, but nonetheless very difficult for others to see, even among the members of this list ;-)). I doubt that our protestations to the contrary can ever count for much in the eyes of those who do not appreciate the teachings as we do. >Perhaps we should explain again and again that we do not deny our >socail life and that we do not wish to think of concepts. I know that >some people, like Lodewijk, get this impression. > > I'm sure Lodewijk sees these things today in a way much more similar to you than was the case even 2 or 3 years ago. But because he is listening more, he is hearing things for the first time now that he finds somewhat difficult to swallow! >On us the task to show that there is no contradiction, that there >should always be a balance. > > Some of us live unashamedly unbalanced lives when it comes to conventional ideas of social contact (but not, I hope, of sociability ;-)). This may be taken against us/the teachings. In fact of course is a matter of accumulated tendency, rather than of any idea about it being the kind of life that *should* be led . And it does not mean there is any less metta, karuna etc in one's life. But how successful we can be in explaining this apparent 'contradiction' to another is very much dependent on how receptive the other person is to our explanation. No expectations, I'd say ... What do you think? Jon #63435 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Vis. 96, postnascence. upasaka_howard Hi again, Sarah - I wrote "Yes, you understood what I was aiming at Sarah. And at present I have a better understanding of what is meant by prenascence condition, and my "problems" have evaporated." What I should have written here was 'postnascence' instead of 'prenascence'. With metta, Howard #63436 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Vis. 96, postnascence. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah = In a message dated 9/18/06 4:41:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: I think I know what you (Howard) were getting at. The rupa has already > risen by prenascence condition, but the namas arising now are > 'consolidating' or supporting it in the present. Yes, it just means > present support for the rupa now which has already arisen prior to such > support. > > Appreciating this helps us to understand that namas and rupas arise by > their own complex conditions and do not arise together at the same moment > (with the exception of the patisandhi citta and rupas at the first moment > of life). > > I'm just picking up on this point because I think you and Nina were having > a good discussion and that there's something significant with regard to > this detail which may affect your view of the arising and falling away of > countless rupas all the time. > > Please let us know if it all 'hangs together' better now. > ========================= Yes, you understood what I was aiming at Sarah. And at present I have a better understanding of what is meant by prenascence condition, and my "problems" have evaporated. :-) With metta, Howard #63437 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:44 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 77. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 11 Different Types of Rebirth-Consciousness We see many different beings in this world, men and animals, all with a different appearance and with a different character. They must have been different from the first moment of their lives, from the moment of rebirth-consciousness, paìisandhi-citta. We may be inclined to think that there must be many types of paìisandhi-citta, but, on the other hand, beings who are born in this world also have many things in common. We share the same world and we receive impressions through the senses, no matter whether we are rich or poor. On account of the objects which we experience through the six doors, kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise. All these cittas, arising in daily life, are cittas of the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas. ``Kåma'' means ``sensual enjoyment'' or ``object of sensual enjoyment''. However, kåmåvacara cittas are not only cittas rooted in attachment, lobha; they are all the cittas pertaining to the sense sphere. Human birth is the result of kusala kamma. The paìisandhi-citta arising in the human plane of existence where there are sense impressions is the result of kusala kamma performed by kåmåvacara cittas, cittas pertaining to the ``sense-sphere''. It cannot be the result of jhånacittas which are not kåmåvacara cittas. The jhånacittas arising when there is calm to the degree of ``absorption'' do not experience objects which present themselves through the five senses. Jhånacittas cannot cause birth in this world. Thus, beings born in the human plane of existence have in common that their paìisandhi-citta is the result of kusala kamma performed by kåmåvacara cittas. As regards the many varieties of human birth, this is due to the degree of kusala kamma which produced the paìisandhi-citta. One could divide human beings as regards their birth into two classes, but each of these two classes includes many degrees of vipåka. The two classes are: 1. Those who are born with a paìisandhi-citta which is ahetuka kusala vipåka (which means that the kusala vipåkacitta is not accompanied by beautiful roots: by alobha or non-attachment, by adosa or non- aversion, or by paññå or wisdom) 2. Those who are born with a paìisandhi-citta which is sahetuka kusala vipåka (kusala vipåka accompanied by beautiful roots) ****** Nina. #63438 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:50 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 58 nilovg Dear friends, This letter is at the same time my answer to Blanche's last letter. Since I am almost going on leave I sent the letter to Sarah. I do not understand anything about the quotations from the meditation teachers, and thus I cannot discuss it. To me it is such a tangle: the citta which does not quiver, what is the meaning? Naturally everyone has to decide for himself what way he wants to go in life. But before one does that it is useful to have a foundation knowledge of all the realities, including calm, so that one knows exactly with what types of cittas calm arises. One has to know about the different processes of cittas, about the different cetasikas accompanying cittas. So hopefully the reprint of the Abhidhamma book will be sent soon from Sri Lanka to Blanche. At the end of her letter I see some real concern to know the truth. Blanche felt that not too much time is left. It makes me think of the 'Sister' (in the Therigatha 57, Vijaya), who had been going around in circles, never finding what she needed. And then she heard about the elements, the namas and rupas and found that the clear, exact foundation knowledge is needed first. In the meantime it makes no sense to have discussions about calm. We read in the Therigatha, that Vijaya, after she had attained arahatship, said: Four times, nay five, I sallied from my cell, And roamed afield to find the peace of mind I lacked, and governance of thoughts I could not bring into captivity. Then to a bhikkhuni (nun) I came and asked Full many a question of my doubts. To me she taught Dhamma: the elements, Organ and object in the life of sense, And then the factors of the Nobler life: The ariyan Truths, the Faculties, the Powers, The Seven Factors of Enlightenment, The Eightfold Way, leading to utmost good. I heard her words, her bidding I obeyed. While passed the first watch of the night there rose Long memories of the bygone line of lives. While passed the second watch, the Heavenly Eye, Purview celestial, I clarified. While passed the last watch of the night, I burst And rent aside the gloom of ignorance. Then, letting joy and blissful ease of mind, Suffuse my body, seven days I sat, Ere stretching out cramped limbs I rose again. Was it not rent indeed, that muffling mist? ****** Nina #63439 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:57 am Subject: Rob's forum on jhana, no 7 nilovg Dear friends, Continuation of Dhamma talk by Venerable Sujivo Thus, in the process of developing concentration, after reaching upacara samadhi where the hindrances have been put aside, one still has to go much further in the concentration before attaining the actual absorption, samatha jhana which we call appana jhana. In certain objects, you can see very clearly that they become finer and finer. Take for example, upacara samadhi, access concentration just before going into the first jhana and upacara samadhi just before going into the second jhana. Both are upacara samadhi but they are different in experience. And when you go to the third and fourth upacara samadhi, just before going into third and fourth jhana respectively, it is again different. The samadhi is finer and more still. The object also becomes much finer. So there are actually different levels of upacara samadhi which can be experienced. We take an example from the kasinas meditative objects like colours, earth, etc. Let's say someone is doing a type of kasinawater kasina. Water kasina involves the visualisation of water. Before reaching absorption there arises what we call a nimitta, a mental sign, called uggaha nimitta. Uggaha nimitta is the 'grasped object'. That means it is a direct replica of what you see as water. When you can do that the mind is already very calm . Usually in this state you cannot be thinking here and there. Thisis because when you're thinking here and there you not only see water, you see other things as well. You may see fish inside the water or you may even see insects moving about. Sometimes you may see your friend swimming in the water and if you have craving arising, you may even see ladies swimming in the water! You may see them very clearly. When you have the uggaha nimitta you see the water very clearly but the water may be moving. You see the water moving and the mind becoming one with the water. It is as if the mind is the water and the water is the mind. And it can be moving. At that time it is not very close to blissful absorption yet. It is still some way off. But if the mind can almost be one with the water and is sticking to the surface of the water, you cannot think of anything else. You cannot be having the idea of the body or anything. You cannot be hearing what is outside, you cannot think where you are either. At that time the nimitta is called uggaha nimitta, grasped object. It is upacara samadhi but not the one very close to the jhana yet. From here you can understand that the samatha concentration should be deep even before getting very close to the jhana. Now if one is doing the water kasina when the uggaha nimitta arises, the mind is one with the object as if the mind is the water and the water is the mind. As the mind at this moment isn't yet completely still there will be movement. That means the water which is the mind and the mind which is the water are still moving. At that time you might find that it is a bit similar to the vipassana experience, but it is not the same. Another example is when doing the wind kasina, the stage is reached where the mind is like the wind and the wind is like the mindthe mind could be moving as if the wind is blowing. It is a bit like vipassana rising and falling, wind going up and down. But if you're sharp enough you know it is not the same. As you progress and the concentration deepens, any movements within the object will stop, it will become very still. The mind which is the water and the water which is the mind become very still and very clear, completely transparent. Very bright. At that point the mind will approach a stage which is extremely clear and extremely bright. When that happens excitement sometimes comes up and the concentration is broken. At that point the mind goes into what we call patibhaga nimitta, the 'mirror image', which is very purified. This is now much closer to blissful absorption, first jhana. But still it is not yet absorption . (end quote) ******** Nina. #63440 From: Daniel Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:13 am Subject: Existence sbhtkk Hi all, I am wondering about the term "existence". How can we define it? What does it mean, and what can it mean? In a buddhist system of thinking what Tibetan Buddhism refers to as "Sautrantika school" , "existent" is defined as "a suitable object for a valid cognition". I do not remember what is the whole definition of "valid cognition", but at least part of the definition for a "valid cognition" is "a cognition that does not contradict other cognitions". (I am giving the definitions by memory, so perhaps I (1) remember them incorrectly (2) ignore the part of them which I do not understand, or change the terms so they would be more understandable for me. So do not rely on this information as accurate! ) This is a very interesting way of looking in the world. "A pink elephant that is in the same room with me right now" is not existent because it is not a suitable object for a valid cognition. I can talk about it and think about it, but probably if it were to exist, I would be able to see it. "Water on a road on a hot day" is not existent even though we see it, because when we look closer, we have other cognitions that contradict the appearance of its existence. So it seems to make sense. But I am used to think in other terms, in terms borrowed from science. I think that "existent" means "that which would still be there if there would be no cognition to experience it". Do you think that is a good definition, that it is a meaningful one? Yours, Daniel P.S. Perhaps someone could recommend me other good, quality YahooGroups? Not even those which are neccessarily related to buddhism - simply other YahooGroups that are of a high quality, that you enjoy participating in? I enjoy this group very much, so perhaps I would enjoy also groups that people from this group would recommend me... #63441 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Vis. 96, postnascence. nilovg Dear Sarah (and Howard), I thought it over more. All over the body there are rupas produced by citta, one of the four factors that produces rupas of the body. Citta is only capable of doing this at its arising moment, then it is strong. Thus citta and the rupas originating from it must arise together. It is perhaps interesting for Howard to know that also rupa produces rupa, no involvement with nama here. Temperature which is rupa originates another rupa, namely of the body or rupa outside, and nutrition, a rupa, originates other rupas of the body. I know rupas outside and nutrition are sensitive issues to Howard. Nina. Op 18-sep-2006, om 13:36 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > As you suggest, I'm sure cittas can also condition rupas to arise > together. You mention rupas such as gestures, but I think other > rupas too, > such as when someone blushes or sweats when nervous. #63442 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Multiple-Mindstream Interaction Revisited nilovg Hi Howard and Sukin, Forgiving is a kind of daana, and by expressing this on the list you give others the opportunity to rejoice, which is anumodana daana. With appreciation, Nina. Op 18-sep-2006, om 15:43 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Again, I appreciate your admirable response in this! #63443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 6 nilovg Dear Jon, He gave no references, and I have no idea what he means. No 2: I think like you. I find the article not clear, but since after this there were questions I thought it fair to post the whole article from Rob's forum. Nina. Op 18-sep-2006, om 15:15 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > My questions are: > > 1. Did the Ven. author give any references for the use of the terms > samatha jhana and vipassana jhana? > 2. I have always assumed that the terms upacara samadhi and appana > samadhi apply only in the context of samatha jhana and not in the > context of vipassana jhana (which would be khanika samadhi). Is > this in > fact so? #63444 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. nilovg Dear Scott. Important points. Anything is possible with lobha, we may take for sati what is lobha. An example: Hardness appears and this is experienced by the vipaakacitta body-consciousness, and this is closely followed in another process by thinking of it with lobha, or naming it with lobha, and we may not notice this. We take it for awareness. It is all so difficult to explain, but best is, not planning anything. Then there can suddenly sometimes be a moment of considering (or imperfect sati) sound, or hardness. When it occurs suddenly it can be seen as conditioned, entirely conditioned, not planned by anybody. I very well understand people who say: just doing nothing will not lead to any sati. But all the listening and considering before are natural decisive support condition for the arising of genuine sati and not what one believes is sati. Yes, this is an important condition, we can have more confidence in natural decisive support condition. People want to be active, want to do something, but understanding of the right conditions is the most beneficial. I appreciate your input. Nina. Op 18-sep-2006, om 14:28 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Would it be fair to say that, conditioned by or > due to ignorance, even sati can be subsumed by lobha? Maybe > 'consumed' is a better word since lobha is like a mouth that is always > hungry and a belly that is never satisfied. #63445 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How do the great elements appear? nilovg Dear Plamen, The support for rupa by citta only pertains to the rupas of the body. As I understand, kamma is inward, it is good and bad intention, accumulated in the cittas of this or that individual, it does not cause the sun. I read the link about you Sarah reminded us of, very interesting, you did a lot of study and work. Nina. Op 18-sep-2006, om 15:44 heeft Plamen Gradinarov het volgende geschreven: > Would the sun collapse if no consciousness is > supporting it? > > Which are the conditions for the rise of the sun? According to > Lokapannatti, these are the four mahabhutani (evolving from subtle > to more coarse) and the accumulated karma which is the ultimate > causa efficiens of the cosmogonic process. #63446 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] just like now. nilovg Dear Jon, I think that it is a matter of emphasis which could possibly onesided. If the emphasis is only and all the time on the ultimate, then others get the wrong impression. Lodewijk always says: read the suttas. The Buddha was so full of compassion, and (as Han also remarked) when people were in trouble and visited him he would not say all the time: there is no Tissa, there is no Jivaka (in our terms: there is no Nina, there is no Lodewijk). So it depends on time, place, occasion what is emphasized. I see it as not kind to disregard the other's accumulations, not to care at all. This is my personal opinion, but it would be good to hear others as well. Nina. Op 18-sep-2006, om 16:05 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > But how successful we can be > in explaining this apparent 'contradiction' to another is very much > dependent on how receptive the other person is to our explanation. No > expectations, I'd say ... > > What do you think? #63447 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How do the great elements appear? pgradinarov Dear Nina, > The support for rupa by citta only pertains to the rupas of the body. Exactly. There are two types of dependent origination described with great detail in 'Saalistamba-suutra. Dependent origination is said to be external and internal. External DO does not depend on citta and namas, this is the world outside - from the rice in the filed to the evolution of the Universe. The seed does not think, "I am generating the sprout." The sprout does not think, "I am generating the bud." The bud does not think, "I am generating the fruit." The outside world develops because of the connection of bases and elemental causes. Basic conditions are the phases in the evolution of anything - from the seed to the fruit, the elemental causes of the external DO are the four mahabhutani, akasa and the seasoned time - even the Universe has its seasons of ups and downs. Any one of the elemental cause creates in the seed its particular effect - hardness, cohesion, etc. up to the effect of transformation created by the seasoned time. Without them, there will be no arising emerging from the seed, etc. The sprout is not created by itself, not created by something else, not created by God or by prakriti, is not dependent on a single factor, but does not originate without cause. By accumulating the effects of the earth, water, firem wind, akasa and time, the seeds dies and the sprout is born. This is the external dependent origination which is not contingent on citta. It has to be regarded also as fivefold: Not as eternal, not as destruction, not as transition (samkranti) but rather as origination (utpada) of bigger effect from a smaller cause and as a result of something similar. Kindest regards, Plamen #63448 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Vis. 96, postnascence. lbidd2 Hi Sarah and Nina, Here's the scoop on consciusness produced rupas from CMA*. I have a couple of questions at the end. CMA, p.247: "The seventy-five types of consciousness, excluding the immaterial-sphere resultants and the two sets of fivefold sense consciousness, produce material phenomena originating from consciousness beginning with the first moment of the life-continuum, but they do so only (at the moment of) arising. "Therein, the javanas of absorption also uphold the bodily postures. But the determning consciousness, javanas of the sense sphere, and direct-knowledge consciousness produce also (bodily and vocal) intimation. Herein, the thirteen javanas accompanied by joy produce smiling too. "Guide: 'Material phenomena originating from consciousness': Material phenomena produced by consciousness spring up starting from the arising moment of the first bhavanga citta immediately after the rebirth consciousness. The rebirth consciousness does not produce consciousness-born matter, since at the moment of reirth the matter that arises is born of kamma, and because this consciousness is a newcomer to the new existence. The tenfold sense consciousness lacks the power to produce matter, and the four immaterial resultants cannot do so since they arise only in the immaterial realms. According to the commentators mental phenomena are strongest at the moment of arising, material phenomena strongest at the moment of presence. Consciousness therefore produces matter only at its arising moment, when it is strongest, not at the moments of presence and dissolution. " 'The javanas of absorption, etc.': The maintenance or upholding of the bodily postures is a function of states of consciousness. The twenty-six javanas of absorption perform this function minimally, by maintaining the body in a sitting, standing, or lying position. The other thirty-two cittas mentioned--the determining cosciousness, sense-sphere javanas, and direct-knowledge cittas--not only uphold the postures but also activate bodily and vocal intimation. " 'Thirteen ... produce smiling too': An ordinary worlding may smile or laugh with any of the four cittas rooted in greed and accompanied by joy, or with any of the four great wholesome cittas accompanied by joy. Trainees smile with six of these cittas, the two connected with wrong view being excluded. Arahants may smile with one of five cittas--the four joyful great functionals and the rootless smile-producing citta. "On how different types of consciousness produce various material phenomena, see Table 6.2." L: I won't reproduce the chart but some of the interesting points are that there are four categories of rupa: 'Consciousness-born matter', 'Postures, 'Intimation', and 'Smiling'. Some consciousnesses produce only one kind of these rupas, some produce two kinds, some three kinds, and some all four. It seems that they are all produced at the moment of arising of the consciousness. There are other bodily rupas, such as the five sense faculties, sex faculties, life faculty and heart-base which are kamma produced. Questions: What is 'consciousness-born matter'? I notice that receiving, investigating, and five-door adverting consciousnesses produce consciousness-born matter. What sort of intimation do direct-knowledge and determining conscousnesses produce? Descriptions? Larry *CMA = "Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma", B. Bodhi's translation of the "Abhidhamattha Sangaha" with a 'Guide" taken from the mahatika. #63449 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks again for your thoughtful reply. N: "Anything is possible with lobha, we may take for sati what is lobha. An example: Hardness appears and this is experienced by the vipaakacitta body-consciousness, and this is closely followed in another process by thinking of it with lobha, or naming it with lobha, and we may not notice this. We take it for awareness." Yes, especially if one goes about waiting for sati to arise. I'd be inclined to think that pa~n~na would have to arise with sati, knowing it as sati, otherwise it would be as you say. N: "It is all so difficult to explain, but best is, not planning anything. Then there can suddenly sometimes be a moment of considering (or imperfect sati) sound, or hardness. When it occurs suddenly it can be seen as conditioned, entirely conditioned, not planned by anybody." Is there a term in paa.li for this "not planning anything?" I was looking just now. I find words for "waiting" such as "apekkhati" or "paccaasi.msita" but these seem to imply lobha. I found "anupaya" meaning "unattached" or "aloof" and this, if I've got it correct, might fit at least the spirit of the law, so to speak. N: "I very well understand people who say: just doing nothing will not lead to any sati. But all the listening and considering before are natural decisive support condition for the arising of genuine sati and not what one believes is sati." Good. I'll listen harder and consider more. I think its difficult, given the way things are presented, to accept the apparently passive stance "required" in all this. Many seem unable to accept that listening, reading, considering, studying can lead to anything good. N: "...we can have more confidence in natural decisive support condition. People want to be active, want to do something, but understanding of the right conditions is the most beneficial." I agree. I've gained an appreciation of natural decisive support of late. It is indeed something one can have confidence in. With loving kindness, Scott. #63450 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] too distracted, and renunciation. scottduncan2 Hi Sarah, Sorry, almost missed this one. S: "Scott, thanks for the clarification of your e-card from the Patthana. I wasn't sure if it was a meditation induced bliss or a textual induced one:-))." I think textual-induced, actually, although the meanings of bhavana seem broad and I would say include certain states which accompany textual comtemplation. That being said, perhaps it was bliss of a "meditational" variety. ;-) S: "Why not let us know what you're finding of special interest/help?" Well, I just read the material in Nina's work, in Pa.t.thaana itself, and in Visuddhimagga and just got this sense that "accumulations" suddenly made more sense in a sort of exciting, albeit rather non-intellectual way if that makes sense. As such I don't have many content-related remarks to make. It just is cool. Sincerely, Scott. #63451 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:32 pm Subject: Re: camps, loss and death buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > A question is on my mind I wanted to ask you for some time. Lodewijk > and I are two oldies and naturally loss through death comes to our > minds. I know it is just thinking, but it is conditioned. Some time > ago there were helpful posts on death by Han, Scott and others, but I > missed your input. You experienced the loss of brother and sister, > and how did you overcome your losses? > If others also have an input, it is not too late. > Nina. I'm not sure how I could really offer any great insight into this matter, but I will give you my thoughts since you ask. It seems like you are asking about two areas: how to deal with one's own impending death, and how to deal with the death of others. I think that when it comes to one's own impending death, specifically you and Lodewijk, it is important to always, always, always keep it in mind! When elderly people talk about death, people usually say, "Oh, don't think about that." But I disagree, you should think about it a lot. And the thoughts shouldn't be morose or depressing; they should be of urgency. You have been given this rare opportunity of a human birth, to hear and practice the dhamma, so what have you done with that? The goal is that during your final hour, or even your final minute, you can be satisfied that you did everything you could to follow the Buddha's path. Specifically, when it comes to you and Lodewijk, I think that you both should be quite satisfied that you lived a worthwhile life. You have lived the dhamma and taught the dhamma to hundreds, if not thousands, of people. You have accumulated great merit and a fortuitous rebirth is practically guaranteed. You should feel thankful and blessed that you came across the dhamma and had the opportunity to practice it. So, I would imagine that you both can face death with a calm and happy heart. As far as dealing with other's death, it is helpful to remember kamma. Everything happens for a reason and life isn't permanent. My brother and sister died under very unfortunate circumstances, and they didn't have the inclination to learn the dhamma, so their rebirth was probably not so fortunate. However, I can perform merit on their behalf and wish for better circumstances for them in the future. After my sister died, my family took her ashes to my Buddhist temple and performed a transfer of merit ceremony. This was the only funeral she had- a Buddhist funeral. Overall, I think that one can deal with death better if they practice the brahma-viharas for all beings (knowing that death isn't the end of the life continuum). It is important to practice all of the brahma-viharas to achieve balance. Just as when the primary colors of light are added together they become white, the brahma- viharas added together create a luminous mind. A luminous mind can withstand the vicissitudes of life and death. Metta, James #63452 From: connie Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:47 pm Subject: oldies! nichiconn Just to quote the commentary on Sumanaa Therii (v16 @ p35): <> wondering, tho, what are the << four young creatures, O king {Pasenadi}, that are not to be despised, etc" >>. peace, connie 16. "Sukha.m tva.m vu.d.dhike sehi, katvaa co.lena paarutaa; upasanto hi te raago, siitibhuutaasi nibbutaa"ti.- 16. Lie down happily, old lady, clad in the garment that you have made, for your desire is stilled. You have become cool, quenched. #63453 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:55 pm Subject: Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >>But to get down to specifics, if I was asked to state briefly how > >>I saw the development of jhana, I'd say that it begins with the > >>development of samatha in daily life. > >> > >>Any disagreement from you so far? ;-)) > >> > >> > > > >Yes, I disagree with your use of the word "begins". Jhana > >doesn't "begin" with samatha in daily life, it is further cultivated > >and supported by samatha in daily life. It BEGINS with the practice > >of sitting down, cross legged. with spine erect and focusing on a > >kasina. > > > > > > Then it seems we disagree right from the beginning ;-)). But let us > discuss. What is the basis for your view that the development of jhana > begins with the practice of sitting cross-legged etc? Oh, I don't know Jon, I think I read it on the back of a cereal box – "Jhana Puffs, Blissfully Delicious!!" ;-)) There are many articles by qualified monks who write about the jhanas and how to practice them- and these articles cite the ancient texts. I'm not going to go into right now because you won't listen anyway. However, for those who are interested here are some links: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/suwat/concentration.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html > > >>Jhana is accompanied by the mental factor of panna, which is why > >>it is such a high level of kusala. Even the development of > >>samatha leading to jhana requires panna. Otherwise there cannot > >>be direct understanding of the kusala or aksuala nature of the > >>present mind-state. > >> > >> > > > >"Panna" is a rather nebulus term and can be used to apply to many > >things. What you wrote here doesn't have much meaning to me because > >it is unspecific. > > > > > > OK, let me give an example to illustrate. Metta is a mental quality. > When metta arises in daily life, as it no doubt does for all of us from > time to time, the consciousness is kusala (wholesome). > > In the suttas kusala consciousness is classified as 3-fold: dana > (generosity), sila (restraint, morality) and bhavana (mental > development) being either samatha (tranquility) or vipassana (insight). > Under this classification moments of metta are samatha (although they > may also be considered as a form of dana, or sila). > > But without the co arising of panna, such moments of metta are not > samatha of the degree that leads to the development of jhana. The mere > accumulation of metta will never lead to jhana. It is the arising of > metta accompanied by panna of the appropriate degree that does this. > > I hope this makes my earlier statement clearer. Okay, so let me see if I get this straight: Metta= A Kusala= B Samatha= C Dana= X Sila= Y Bhavana= Z Panna= O When A arises in daily life, it is B. When B arises in daily life, it is either X, Y, or Z. When X, Y, or Z arises in daily life, it is C. Without O, A isn't C enough to become jhana. Jon, is this the dhamma or the Da Vinci Code? ;-)) Such mental gymnastics aren't necessary to figure out the dhamma, and anything that requires such gymnastics is immediately suspect. Remember KISS- Keep It Simple Stupid. > > >>However, there is no rule against asking leading questions when > >>cross-examining the other party or his witnesses. > >>How this applies in the DSG context depends, I suppose, on whether > >>you see there being opposing camps (if you do, then you should not > >>object to leading questions from the other camp ;-)). > >> > >> > > > >:-)) Clever. However, this isn't a trial and you shouldn't be > >trying to discredit my testimony ;-)). Offer your own testimony and > >let the jury decide. ;-)) > > > > > > I have already rested my case (and stared at the jurors with my piercing > blue eyes; I hope you're ready for an unfavourable verdict). I would imagine that the jury is still scratching its head over that one!! ;-)) > > Jon > Metta, James #63454 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] just like now. ken_aitch Hi Nina and all, This looks like one of those easy debates in which both sides can be right. I'll put in my 2 cents worth for the "paramattha only" side. ------------------- N: > I think that it is a matter of emphasis which could possibly onesided. ------------------- I can't think of a situation where the emphasis should be on the conventional rather than the paramattha reality. Consider, for example, meetings of the World Council of Churches and similar organizations - such as the one Matheesha will be addressing soon. Wouldn't there be a temptation there to water down the Dhamma - to let people believe, for the sake of harmony, that all teachings, including the Dhamma, were ultimately the same (i.e., conventional)? In my opinion, no, certainly not! ------------------------------------- N: > If the emphasis is only and all the time on the ultimate, then others get the wrong impression. ------------------------------------- Maybe so, but what harm is done so long as they don't get the ultimately wrong impression - that the Middle Way is travelled by a conventional being or self. ----------------------------------------------- N: > Lodewijk always says: read the suttas. The Buddha was so full of compassion, and (as Han also remarked) when people were in trouble and visited him he would not say all the time: there is no Tissa, there is no Jivaka (in our terms: there is no Nina, there is no Lodewijk). ------------------------------------------------- I could be wrong, but when people visited the Buddha didn't they have prior knowledge that he was the teacher of the Middle Way - the way of anatta? So wouldn't they have known that everything he said concerned right understanding of paramattha dhammas? I'm sorry I can't remember the suttas about Tissa and Jivaka. Was one of those people the grieving mother who was told by the Buddha to try to find just one household that was not affected by pain and loss? Even in that case, wasn't the Buddha really describing conditioned dhammas rather than households? ----------------------------------- N: > So it depends on time, place, occasion what is emphasized. I see it as not kind to disregard the other's accumulations, not to care at all. This is my personal opinion, but it would be good to hear others as well. ------------------------------------ To repeat my opinion; the worst wrong impression we can give anyone is that the Buddha taught a conventional way out. Ken H #63455 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His jonoabb Hi Plamen Plamen Gradinarov wrote: >Dear Jon and Sarah! > > > >>(Conventional) time and >>space are mere concepts. >> >> > >I agree. Conventional space (desa) is dependent on the distance >between (collocation) and velocity of the material systems. > >Time is the measure of mental phenomena and the "substance" of >vitarka and vicara, so it is instrumental to acquiring prajna. It is >also concomitant with such namas as jati, sthiti, jara, aniyata. >Hence time is contingent on citta and there are many philosophers >who think that time is the citta-rahasya (the secret of >consciousness). > >BTW, I don't think there is absolute time in Buddhism as there is >absolute space (akasa). > > I'm not sure about the idea of absolute space. There is a rupa which is given the name 'space' because it is what separates one rupa from another. >Yet, if we concede that there is a kind of bhavanga-sota of Bauddha- >darsana, continuity of Buddhist philosophy, we will have to answer >this question: > >What made the authors of the extended Abdhidharma lists include both >desa and kala in the group of citta-viprayukta-samskara-dharmas >(citta-vippayutta-sankkhara-dhammas)? Why are they listed as regular >namas possessing dravya-sat rather than merely prajnapti-sat? Isn't >citta-viprayukta pointing to the fact that desa and kala are >dependent on rupa but independent of citta? > > I'd be happy to have a go at this question if I could understand it ;-)), but I'm not aware of the nama-dhammas of desa and kala. Could you identify them further, please? Thanks. Jon #63456 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:32 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 524- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (u) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== uprightness of cetasika, kåya-ujukatå uprightness of citta, citta-ujukatå Uprightness is the opponent of deception and craftiness. There may be moments that one’s behaviour is insincere. We read in the Visuddhimagga (I, 60-84) about the behaviour of the monk who tries to obtain the requisites by hypocrisy, by hinting, flattery, indirect talk, grimaces and gestures. He pretends to be better than he in reality is in order to be admired. We read (I, 70): * "Here someone of evil wishes, a prey to wishes, eager to be admired, (thinking) “Thus people will admire me”, composes his way of walking, composes his way of lying down; he walks studiedly, stands studiedly, sits studiedly, lies down studiedly; he walks as though concentrated, stands, sits, lies down as though concentrated; and he is one who meditates in public…" * We all want to be admired and therefore we may pretend to be better than we really are. Even when it seems that we are generous there tend to be selfish motives for our actions. We may expect something in return, we want to be praised, to be popular. Speech which seems pleasing may be directed towards selfish gain. Uprightness crushes such insincerity. It assists each kusala citta. There are many degrees of uprightness. To the extent that right understanding develops also uprightness develops. The ariyan is called the person who is on the straight, true and proper way (ujupatipanno, Vis. VII, 90-92). He is on the middle Path, avoiding extremes; he is on the Path which leads to the eradication of defilements. One is on the middle Path when there is the development of understanding of whatever reality appears, even if it is akusala. We can develop right understanding in daily life, no matter whether we laugh or cry, no matter whether we are angry or generous. Thus we will learn the truth, we will learn that each reality which arises is conditioned and that it is non-self. In the above quoted explanation of insincerity in the Visuddhimagga we read about the monk who walks, stands, sits and lies down as though concentrated. Someone may believe that he is doing these things with concentration which is kusala, although this is not so. When there is mindfulness of realities we can find out whether the citta which presents itself is kusala citta or akusala citta. We will come to know ourselves and thus we will become more sincere. The person who is on the middle Way is honest with himself and he does not pretend that he is without defilements. Defilements can only be eradicated if they are known as they are. Straightness of cetasikas and of citta accompany the citta which develops understanding and they assist the citta in this task. ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63457 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: too distracted sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Thanks for the clarification of the question! --- Scott Duncan wrote: >... Is body > sense vipaaka pleasant or unpleasant (either 'pleasure' or 'pain') > simply because there is no indifferent body sense? .... S: Body sense vipaka is said to be pleasant or unpleasant because the impact is greater than that on the other senses. We read about this in various commentaries. Here, quoting from 'Cetasikas' under vedana: "The Paramattha Manjusa, a commentary to the Visuddhimagga (XIV, note 56) explains why kaya-vinnana is accompanied by either pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling. This is because of the 'violence of the impact's blow '; there is the direct impact of tangible object on the bodysense. Tangible objects which are experienced through the rupa which is the bodysense are the following rupas: soIidity, appearing as hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as oscillation or pressure. By way of a simile the difference is explained between the impact of tangible object on the bodysense and the impact of the other sense objects on the relevant senses. When a man places cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it with an iron hammer, the hammer goes right through the cottonwool because of the violence of the impact. In the case, however, of the other panca-vinnanas, the impact is gentle, like the contact between two pieces of cottonwool. Thus, they are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The 'impact' of visible object on the eye-sense is gentle when compared with the direct physical contact of tangible object with the bodysense. We may believe that bodily feeling can be indifferent, but this is not so. The moment of body-consciousness (kaya-vinnana) is extremely short; it is only one moment of vipaka and after it has fallen away akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise. Body-consciousness Is accompanied either by pleasant bodily feeling or by painful bodily feeling. The akusala cittas or kusala cittas which arise shortly afterwards are accompanied by feelings which are different from bodily feeling. They can be accompanied by happy feeling, unhappy feeling or indifferent feeling." ..... S: I hope this is the answer you're looking for this time:-) Metta, Sarah ======== #63458 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 6 jonoabb Hi Nina Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Dear Jon, >He gave no references, and I have no idea what he means. >No 2: I think like you. > > Thanks, Nina. >I find the article not clear, but since after this there were >questions I thought it fair to post the whole article from Rob's forum. > > I must say I had been wondering why you felt the article merited our attention, but this explains it. Looking forward to the questions and answers. Jon #63459 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His jonoabb Hi Howard (and Plamen) upasaka@... wrote: >---------------------------------------------- >Howard: > When a buddha or anyone knows a rupa, it is a known rupa. But an >alleged rupa that arose and ceased without a buddha or anyone having been conscious >of it was, as already indicated, not known and now gone, and hence only >hypothesized. An unknown is, in fact, not known. That is what 'unknown' means. >Also, when a buddha is aware of something with wisdom, the wisdom is concomitant >to citta. Wisdom doesn't operate on its own. What is not the object of a citta >is not known at all. > The issue at hand is the presumption that there exist rupas that are >not known at all, that are entirely unknown. My reply is that, by definition, >that is not knowable. This is utterly straightforward and without doubt. The >only phenomena that anyone can be certain of are observed phenomena. May >unobserved ones exist? Perhaps. But that is not knowable. >---------------------------------------------------- > > I think the issue under discussion has morphed somewhat from the original. Let's go back to the beginning. Plamen: ... [N]ama cannot exist without rupa, while rupa can, and in fact does predominantly exist without being conjoined to nama. Howard: ... I do maintain that there is, in principle, no way of knowing the alleged independence of rupa from nama, inasmuch as unknown rupa is exactly that - unknown. The issue is whether or not rupa can exist without being conjoined to nama. This is a question that can be discussed in the context of rupas that are experienced. We do not have to postulate unknown/unexperienced rupas to consider what the answer to that question might be. A rupa can be the object of experience and still be 'independent' of that consciousness in its arising (especially if its arising preceded that of the consciousness) or even in its presence as object. (Of course, once the issue is defined as one of knowing the unknown all sorts of semantic possibilities arise and the discussion quickly gets nowhere. But I don't think anyone is actually saying that. Plamen may wish to comment.) As I said in my previous reply, if it was known, in regard to a rupa that is actually experienced, that it had already arisen by the time it became the object of that experience, this would be enough to substantiate the statement that 'rupas can [and do] exist without being conjoined to nama'. Even more so, if the conditions for the arising of a presently-experienced rupa are known and those conditions do not include its being the object of that consciousness, then the statement is also substantiated. >------------------------------------------------- >Howard: > It IS an open question. That is exactly my point. I do not claim any >certainty at all that there are no unobserved rupas. How could I? I merely >dispute a claim of certainty of the existence of unobserved rupas. >-------------------------------------------------- > > The so-called 'claim of certainty of the existence of unobserved rupas' is not quite the claim being made. I appreciate that you see that as being a necessary implication of the claim, but that is another matter. I see the claim as being in effect that while all namas depend on rupa for their arising, there are rupas that do not depend on nama for their arising. It is a matter of conditions. Jon #63460 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How do the great elements appear? jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Plamen Gradinarov" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > There are two types of dependent origination described with > great detail in 'Saalistamba-suutra. Dependent origination is said to > be external and internal. External DO does not depend on citta and > namas, this is the world outside - from the rice in the filed to the > evolution of the Universe. The seed does not think, "I am generating > the sprout. ..... Hallo Plamen, Nina, Jon, all Plamen, two remarks. The first is I like it when there in this Theravada-based forum contributions are given from non-Theravada sources, these can enriche our thinking. But when you do so, you can not simply say "There are two types of dependent origination described with great detail in Saalistamba-suutra" without giving much information. You must know (nearly) nobody in DSG has ever heard of this "Suutra". The second remark is that I got after some googling information about this "Suutra" Much about it is still unclear; for example: is it a (mahayana-) buddhistic or a hinduistic text? I found for example "DO The Indo-Tibetan Tradition" by Alex Wayman http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-JOCP/jc26696.htm Wayman explain indeed that DO has two meaning, two ways of using. But not, as far as I understand, an external and a internal one, as you state. That is: not with "external" in the meaning you give to it: Plamen: "External DO does not depend on citta and namas, this is the world outside - from the rice in the field to the evolution of the Universe." This is double wrong. First: the Buddha was silent about the evolution of the universe; and second: this is not what the Saalistamba-suutra, according Wayman, gives: "since there are two distinct and contrasting interpretations of the series [of DO], the first one which I label 'discovery and seeing', and the second 'lives of a person', and since both interpretations are required for understanding the formula." Or do you have other information about the Saalistamba-suutra in which also the external function of DO (for example explaining the evolution of the universe) is given. And if you have this information: do you think this is compatible with the Theravada understanding? Joop BTW A very good essay about time and spice is: Time and Space: The Abhidhamma Perspective By Y. Karunadasa http://www.orientalia.org/article594.html #63461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:00 am Subject: re: Vis. 96, postnascence. nilovg Hi Larry, thank you for all the info put together. This can also be found in Topics of Abh, from p.238. ------------ L: I won't reproduce the chart but some of the interesting points are that there are four categories of rupa: 'Consciousness-born matter', 'Postures, 'Intimation', and 'Smiling'. Some consciousnesses produce only one kind of these rupas, some produce two kinds, some three kinds, and some all four. It seems that they are all produced at the moment of arising of the consciousness. ---------- N: It could not be otherwise. ------- L: Questions: What is 'consciousness-born matter'? I notice that receiving, investigating, and five-door adverting consciousnesses produce consciousness-born matter. ------ N: of the sense-sphere cittas only the five pairs of seeing etc. are excepted, these are too weak. The other cittas produce rupas all over the body, but we cannot specify them. The rebirth-consciousness does not produce rupas, but as the Co states, this is not mentioned since, being included among the types of bhavangacittas it is not a different type of citta. -------- L:What sort of intimation do direct-knowledge and determining conscousnesses produce? Descriptions? ------- N: abhi~n~naa is based on the fifth rupa-jhanacitta. It can create forms such as many bodies similar to one's own, or a miracle such as the Buddha did consisting of the emission of water and fire. Such a miracle was a way of conveying a message. Votthapanacitta is the mind-door adverting-consciousness arising in a sense-door process and it also conditions rupas, which cannot be specified. When kusala citta or akusala citta produces rupas such as facial expressions, it is easier to understand that citta conditions rupas. As to determining-consciousness it is concealed where exactly rupas are produced. But anyway, we know that four factors originate rupas: kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature. Nina #63462 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] just like now. jonoabb Hi Nina Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Dear Jon, >I think that it is a matter of emphasis which could possibly >onesided. If the emphasis is only and all the time on the ultimate, >then others get the wrong impression. > Right, but when a discussion is being held at the Foundation, those who have come out of a genuine interest in the teachings want to hear what they do not get to hear otherwise. (And even more so if there's a trip to somewhere like KK, it is surely time for the ultimate not the conventional ;-)). >Lodewijk always says: read the >suttas. The Buddha was so full of compassion, and (as Han also >remarked) when people were in trouble and visited him he would not >say all the time: there is no Tissa, there is no Jivaka (in our >terms: there is no Nina, there is no Lodewijk). > > Lodewijk is right: we should study the suttas more. But we can never hope to emulate the Buddha in knowing the most appropriate and most helpful thing to say! If I get sick and am confined to bed (as I was the other day), I find the only thing I want to do is listen to recordings of the discussions (and I'd be surprised if it was not the same for you ;-)). >So it depends on time, place, occasion what is emphasized. >I see it as not kind to disregard the other's accumulations, not to >care at all. > > I agree in general with these remarks (but I'm not quite sure how they relate to this thread). >This is my personal opinion, but it would be good to hear others as >well. > > Yes, I'd like to hear the views of others, too. Jon #63463 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His sarahprocter... Dear Plamen, --- Plamen Gradinarov wrote: > What made the authors of the extended Abdhidharma lists include both > desa and kala in the group of citta-viprayukta-samskara-dharmas > (citta-vippayutta-sankkhara-dhammas)? Why are they listed as regular > namas possessing dravya-sat rather than merely prajnapti-sat? Isn't > citta-viprayukta pointing to the fact that desa and kala are > dependent on rupa but independent of citta? > > Thank you for the interesting discussion! .... S: I don't know anything about the 'extended Abhidharma lists', but in the Theravada Tipitika Abhidhamma, time is not included as a paramatha dhamma - it's a concept. There are 2 or 3 kinds of space referred to, so it's more tricky. In one meaning it's a concept and in another it's classified as a rupa as we've said, pariccheda akasa rupa. This aakaasadhaatu or space element has the characteristic of delimiting groups of rupas and it is therefore dependent on them, regardless of whether they are ever experienced by namas or not. See more under 'Time' and 'Space' in 'Useful Posts'. I think it's very difficult to 'mesh' different schools of thought. It might be easier to just start a fresh study of Abhidhamma according to the Theravada tradition and then come to your own conclusion about what's right and what can be proben now. For example, when we think about 'time', I think it's easy to see it's a concept and not a nama or any other kind of reality. What do you think? Metta, Sarah ======= #63464 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters from Nina, 58 sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Lodewijk (& Matt), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear friends, > > This letter is at the same time my answer to Blanche's last letter. > Since I am almost going on leave I sent the letter to Sarah. ... S: I remember that you asked me to also reply to her and try to help which I did as I recall. .... <...> Blanche felt that not too much time > is left. It makes me think of the 'Sister' (in the Therigatha 57, > Vijaya), who had been going around in circles, never finding what she > needed. And then she heard about the elements, the namas and rupas > and found that the clear, exact foundation knowledge is needed first. ... S: This is the point. We go round and round in circles until we learn to appreciate that no matter what our lifestyle, whether we're very sociable or live very quietly, there are only namas and rupas to be known. I've always been very sociable, especially in my work as a psychologist and teacher, but I've never found any conflict between the study of dhammas, the study of elements and my duties or engagement with other people. Metta is a dhamma, an element, the other paramis are dhammas too. The Buddha taught about all dhammas to be understood and about all kinds of kusala to be developed with detachment and without clinging to an idea of self that develops them. For me, it is the understanding of namas and rupas which has always been the greatest of assistance in my work and social interactions. No conflict at all. The teaching is not 'in the book' as we always hear, but in our daily life at this very moment. Regardless of our lifestyles or accumulations, there are only paramattha dhammas. Of course, different people respond to different kinds of emphasis, I know and this doesn't appeal to all! When we're interacting with others in a social way or in our work, we talk about ordinary topics in ordinary ways. For example, this morning in the surf, I chatted to other surfers about the tides and other surf topics. When I got back, I was helping the workmen and giving them drinks. This of course can be with kindness and consideration too. It never occurs to me to 'wish not to think of concepts'. However we think is conditioned in any case. However, when it's a dhamma discussion, we talk about dhammas, such as when we're at the Foundation, at Kaeng Krajan or here on DSG as I see it. As I mentioned, when a friend started talking about her family members and some problems recently, K.Sujin reminded her that it was time to discuss about dhammas. When we dwell on others' words and deeds, we usually forget that the only problem is the lack of awareness of the present (unwise)thinking, not the others. K.Sujin's comments to meditators and the ones I reported recently which you mentioned seemed rather harsh or unsympathetic are in the context of a discussion about dhammas for those who might appreciate them at the time or later. Of course we don't go round telling our family members and friends without any interest in the teachings that the cremation is 'just like now' or that they don't exist and so on. It wouldn't be appropriate at all, I agree. I don't see any contradiction or dilemma and no need to compartmentalise our activities at all when it comes to the development of understanding. Otherwise again we think our ordinary activities such as shopping, socialising and surfing interfere with the Dhamma and this isn't right. ... <...> > Then to a bhikkhuni (nun) I came and asked > > Full many a question of my doubts. > > To me she taught Dhamma: the elements, > > Organ and object in the life of sense, > > And then the factors of the Nobler life: > > The ariyan Truths, the Faculties, the Powers, > > The Seven Factors of Enlightenment, > > The Eightfold Way, leading to utmost good. <...> ... S: Yes, great quote and the only way to really overcome our doubts is through the direct understanding of the elements which appear now. Of course I don't wish my comments to cause you any dismay or anxiety, Lodewijk. We all find different aspects of the teachings uplifting and helpful, I know. Please ignore my summaries of discussions if these seem too direct or uncaring in anyway. It's certainly not how they are intended. I'll look forward to hearing any further reflections. Lodewijk, you mentioned (off-list) that you might be responding and I'll look forward to that. Matt, you indicated some interest in these topics in Thailand. Do you have anything to add? Metta, Sarah ======== #63465 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Ken: Touching Base and Clarifying My Position sarahprocter... hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > Everything that people (conventionally) do involves a lot of > ignorance. We are beset by craving, aversion, and ignorance, most > especially by a sense > of self in "the person" and in conventional and paramatthic phenomena, > and th > at remains so until final awakening. So what? ... S: So, isn't it better to know? If we think a certain kind of cetana or willing can be mustered up somehow now as we decide to sit here or in another quieter room, isn't it better to know that even such thinking and willing is conditioned? Metta, Sarah ====== #63466 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] An article on the mind sarahprocter... Hi Daniel, --- Daniel wrote: > Hi all, > > > This seems to be an interesting article : > > > http://www.alanwallace.org/ChoosingReality23.pdf > > > > If you have any thoughts regarding it, please share! .... S: I'm responding because I don't think anyone else did! When I clicked on the link I got a blank page. In any case, I find the subject matter 'Choosing Reality' rather suspect. Do you think there can be any choosing of any reality? Metta, Sarah ========= #63467 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice sarahprocter... Dear Joop, --- Joop wrote: > J: What surprises me is that you state that one can überhaupt TRY > something, even if it's akusala or have akusala results. Or a human > being has the build in possibility to try something or not. ... S: No, in case it's escaped your notice, I don't think there are human beings or that in reality there's any self that can TRY anything. I was referring to the wrong idea of self that is trying when I wrote: >When we are TRYING to have awareness or follow activities in order for wholesome states to arise, attachment is bound to be there, assisted by akusala viriya, driving the attachment along." (capitals me, Joop)< .... > About about accumulations. Now you are using another metaphore with > the term 'piling up'. This gives a new problem: piling up in what > medium etc. ... S: OK, don't take it literally. Like adding more salt to the sea water. It 'adds up' or accumulates, but doesn't literally 'pile up'. ... > > About 'anatta'. I can understand that you think 'anatta' cannot be > evident for a wordling like me. But my main point was and is: for > me 'anicca' is more important than 'anatta' ... S: I think that the anatta characteristic of dhammas has to become more and more apparent for worldlings like you and me:-) I appreciate all your reminders about the anicca characteristic of dhammas too. Have a good trip. Send us an e-card when you have a chance! Metta, Sarah ====== #63468 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Existence sarahprocter... Hi Daniel, --- Daniel wrote: > I am wondering about the term "existence". How can we define it? > What does > it mean, and what can it mean? > ... S: Why don't we consider what 'exists' now? What would you say exists now? Are not 'pink elephands' and 'water on a road on a hot day' merely ideas we have? Does seeing exist? Does visible object exist? Does thinking about them exist? What about when we touch the computer. What exists? Metta, Sarah ========= #63469 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 5. sarahprocter... Dear Nina and RobK, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear friends, > > Access & Fixed Concentration > Dhamma talk by Venerable Sujivo, Kota Tinggi, January 1993 > Transcribed by Bhikkhu Bodhisara > > > There are two approaches in the practice of meditation. The first > approach is called samatha yanika. Those meditators who follow this > approach practise initially by using concentration, or tranquillity, > as a base. This means they practise pure tranquillity meditations > like kasinas, visualisations; asubhas, meditations on loathsomeness > of the body. There are forty such objects enumerated in the > Visuddhimagga. They usually practise until they have reached an > established state: At least to upacara samadhi, or to any of the > jhanas, the blissful absorptions. When they are established here, > they go further and practise vipassana. .... S: I've also been curious. The whole article seems to be riddled with an idea of someone practising and with little understanding of what samatha or vipassana are. I think there's a difference between reading suttas such as the oft-quoted Yuganaddha Sutta or the Vism with an idea that someone practices and makes choices about 'the most suitable' way and appreciating that we everyone has different accumulations and dhammas (even jhanas or lokuttara dhammas) arise at different times and in different ways accordingly. I'm sure you'd both agree and I'll look forward to any further comments from anyone. Metta, Sarah ======== #63470 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: too distracted scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, S: "I hope this is the answer you're looking for this time:-)" Thank you very much! One for the archives. With loving kindness, Scott. #63471 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice jwromeijn Dear Sarah Thanks; I'm leaving in an hour or so. I agree with you on your remarks today to Plamen, cf my message to him Metta Joop #63472 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Plamen) - In a message dated 9/19/06 5:32:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard (and Plamen) > > upasaka@... wrote: > > >---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > When a buddha or anyone knows a rupa, it is a known rupa. But an > >alleged rupa that arose and ceased without a buddha or anyone having been > conscious > >of it was, as already indicated, not known and now gone, and hence only > >hypothesized. An unknown is, in fact, not known. That is what 'unknown' > means. > >Also, when a buddha is aware of something with wisdom, the wisdom is > concomitant > >to citta. Wisdom doesn't operate on its own. What is not the object of a > citta > >is not known at all. > > The issue at hand is the presumption that there exist rupas that are > >not known at all, that are entirely unknown. My reply is that, by > definition, > >that is not knowable. This is utterly straightforward and without doubt. > The > >only phenomena that anyone can be certain of are observed phenomena. May > >unobserved ones exist? Perhaps. But that is not knowable. > >---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > I think the issue under discussion has morphed somewhat from the > original. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not sure that it has. ------------------------------------ Let's go back to the beginning.> > > Plamen: ... [N]ama cannot exist without rupa, while rupa can, and in > fact does predominantly exist without being conjoined to nama. > Howard: ... I do maintain that there is, in principle, no way of > knowing the alleged independence of rupa from nama, inasmuch as unknown > rupa is exactly that - unknown. > > The issue is whether or not rupa can exist without being conjoined to nama. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: The issue, AFAIK, is how we could know one way or the other. --------------------------------------------- > > This is a question that can be discussed in the context of rupas that > are experienced. We do not have to postulate unknown/unexperienced > rupas to consider what the answer to that question might be. A rupa can > be the object of experience and still be 'independent' of that > consciousness in its arising (especially if its arising preceded that of > the consciousness) or even in its presence as object. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: 1) Independent in what sense? Not being the object of awareness? 2) How would one know that a rupa arose prior to the consciousness of it? How would that be more than plausible speculation? ---------------------------------------------- > > (Of course, once the issue is defined as one of knowing the unknown all > sorts of semantic possibilities arise and the discussion quickly gets > nowhere. But I don't think anyone is actually saying that. Plamen may > wish to comment.) > > As I said in my previous reply, if it was known, in regard to a rupa > that is actually experienced, that it had already arisen by the time it > became the object of that experience, this would be enough to > substantiate the statement that 'rupas can [and do] exist without being > conjoined to nama'. ---------------------------------------- Howard: The question is HOW would such a rupa be known (KNOWN!) to have existed prior to an awareness of it? IF apples were oranges, then apple juice would be orange juice. Saying "if" here establishes nothing. The whole point is how an "if" is to be determined. -------------------------------------- > > Even more so, if the conditions for the arising of a > presently-experienced rupa are known and those conditions do not include > its being the object of that consciousness, then the statement is also > substantiated. -------------------------------------------- Howard: You're going on in the same way, Jon. It doesn't establish anything. --------------------------------------------- > > >------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It IS an open question. That is exactly my point. I do not claim any > >certainty at all that there are no unobserved rupas. How could I? I merely > >dispute a claim of certainty of the existence of unobserved rupas. > >-------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > The so-called 'claim of certainty of the existence of unobserved rupas' > is not quite the claim being made. I appreciate that you see that as > being a necessary implication of the claim, but that is another matter. > > I see the claim as being in effect that while all namas depend on rupa > for their arising, there are rupas that do not depend on nama for their > arising. It is a matter of conditions. -------------------------------------------- Howard: You merely make a claim here, unsubstantiated, and with no means of substantiation provided, that rupas can arise independently of namas - unknown. --------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ====================== With metta, Howard #63473 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Ken: Touching Base and Clarifying My Position upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/19/06 6:31:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >Howard: > > Everything that people (conventionally) do involves a lot of > >ignorance. We are beset by craving, aversion, and ignorance, most > >especially by a sense > >of self in "the person" and in conventional and paramatthic phenomena, > >and th > >at remains so until final awakening. So what? > ... > S: So, isn't it better to know? > ----------------------------------------- Howard: And I DO know it. What serious Buddhist does not? ----------------------------------------- If we think a certain kind of cetana or> > willing can be mustered up somehow now as we decide to sit here or in > another quieter room, isn't it better to know that even such thinking and > willing is conditioned? ----------------------------------------- Howard: It is good to know that all conditions are, themselves, conditioned. It is best to know this by following the Buddha's training, to cultivate the mind so that the knowing can be direct and real and not just a matter of book learning. -------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========================= With metta, Howard #63474 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Existence upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Daniel) - In a message dated 9/19/06 6:50:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: Why don't we consider what 'exists' now? > > What would you say exists now? Are not 'pink elephands' and 'water on a > road on a hot day' merely ideas we have? > > Does seeing exist? > Does visible object exist? > Does thinking about them exist? > > What about when we touch the computer. What exists? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahhh! Would the answer be be what is perceived? ;-) The rupa (of hardness) that is known by the nama of vi~n~nana? [And also the knowing of it is known, but not then as an object.] ==================== With metta, Howard #63475 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 5. matheesha333 Hi Sarah, > S: I've also been curious. The whole article seems to be riddled with an > idea of someone practising and with little understanding of what samatha > or vipassana are. You are suggesting that people who have made buddhism their life dont know that there is no self in buddhism and havent thought about it. You are also suggesting that your understanding of samatha and vipassana is the one and only RIGHT way. Could it be possible that there might be another way that you haven't grasped yet (or your theoretical structure is not letting you grasp)? Perhaps you consider that 99.9% of scholars and practitioners of buddhism have got it wrong, and that only the KS band have got it right. heavens... there is a word for that... come to reality please.. (mind the pun) Jokes apart, you Sarah need to seriously think about this amazing disparity. Could thay be ALL wrong? with metta Matheesha #63476 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Nina & Rob) - In a message dated 9/19/06 6:55:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: I've also been curious. The whole article seems to be riddled with an > idea of someone practising and with little understanding of what samatha > or vipassana are. > > I think there's a difference between reading suttas such as the oft-quoted > Yuganaddha Sutta or the Vism with an idea that someone practices and makes > choices about 'the most suitable' way and appreciating that we everyone > has different accumulations and dhammas (even jhanas or lokuttara dhammas) > arise at different times and in different ways accordingly. > > I'm sure you'd both agree and I'll look forward to any further comments > from anyone. > > ========================= I agree with you, Sarah. I would only add that there can be people who use language suggesting an actor but don't have a belief in such or a very strong sense of such, and, on the other hand, there can be people who make great effort to not talk that way but have a (suppressed) belief in an actor and a very strong sense of one. It isn't easy for us to correctly judge. With metta, Howard #63477 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:20 am Subject: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self upasaka_howard Hi all - When anger arises, it is sense of self asserting itself. If anger arises frequently and strongly, it points to a strong sense of self. It is good to watch "our" anger. Seeing it helps disabuse us of the thought of appreciable attainment. ;-) With metta, Howard #63478 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:04 am Subject: Rob's forum on jhana, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, continuation of Dhamma talk by Venerable Sujivo, abridged. <...What I want is to give you a good idea of what access concentration and what actually fixed concentration is in what we call pure samatha jhana, when we talk about first, second, third and fourth jhana as samatha jhana. According to our experience it is important to have a certain degree of understanding. It is because of a lack of this type of understanding that wrong views arise. You find that in the Brahmajala Sutta, the discourse on wrong views, a large extent of wrong views do not come through thinking or philosophies, they come from meditative experiences. Because people hold on to their meditative experiences as something which is true and good but which in reality is very false, it gives rise to many types of wrong views. For example, one of them is dittha dhamma nibbana dittha dhamma vada. Nibbana you understand, dittha dhamma is a present state, vada is a view. This is the view regarding the present state as nibbana. For example if a person gets attached to the jhana as nibbana then he goes into wrong views. Of course there is nobody who can argue with him because he thinks "I have experienced it and you not". At certain times entering into jhana is as if going into a void, the object becomes so subtle that it is very easy to fall into false views if one does not have a proper teacher. Even before going to the blissful absorptions one can experience many subtle states which can be misunderstood. Therefore tonight's talk is to give you an idea so that you do not get attached to these experiences. If you cannot differentiate between upacara samadhi and appana samadhi, access concentration and fixed concentration, it's even easier for you to make a mistake between what is nibbana and what is not nibbana because nibbana is something more subtle and deeper than jhana. For example, when people are practising meditation and everybody starts saying, "I've got first jhana, second jhana, third jhana, fourth jhana, this magga- phala, that magga-phala", we don't say that they are wrong because we don't really know what their experiences are, but the fact that they are saying all these things so easily and so happily makes it obvious that there are attachments. And you can see sometimes when they say it, they are very proud of it. If they are actually attached to wrong views it is even worse. We hope that this will not happen among the Buddhists here. If a person has really gone through all these practices he will know that it is not easy to know whether somebody has this jhana or that jhana, this magga-phala or that magga-phala. One would be very reserved in making such statements. Therefore, if somebody says all these things too freely, we don't say directly that he is wrong, we say, be very careful with him, you may go into wrong views.> (end article). ******* Robert K: (end quote) ____________ Nina. #63479 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:29 am Subject: camps, loss and death. nilovg Hi James, I appreciate your post, thank you very much. ----------- J: And the thoughts shouldn't be morose or depressing; they should be of urgency. You have been given this rare opportunity of a human birth, to hear and practice the dhamma, so what have you done with that? The goal is that during your final hour, or even your final minute, you can be satisfied that you did everything you could to follow the Buddha's path. ------- N: A sense of urgency is necessary, not wasting one's life. And also gratefulness for that little bit of understanding one acquired. Did I do everything I could? I cannot say so. ---------- J: Specifically, when it comes to you and Lodewijk, I think that you both should be quite satisfied that you lived a worthwhile life. You have lived the dhamma and taught the dhamma to hundreds, if not thousands, of people. You have accumulated great merit and a fortuitous rebirth is practically guaranteed. You should feel thankful and blessed that you came across the dhamma and had the opportunity to practice it. So, I would imagine that you both can face death with a calm and happy heart. ------ N: This is very kindly said, but we cannot sit back quietly. There are many kammas of the past, also akusala kamma and one of them may get the opportunity to produce an unhappy rebirth. Nobody ever knows. But, instead of worrying and thinking to much, there are the perfections to be developed now, including the Brahmaviharas. ------ J:As far as dealing with other's death, it is helpful to remember kamma. Everything happens for a reason and life isn't permanent. ------ N: This certainly helps. Good to be reminded. It is the most beneficial to face losses, I think. -------- J:My brother and sister died under very unfortunate circumstances, and they didn't have the inclination to learn the dhamma, so their rebirth was probably not so fortunate. However, I can perform merit on their behalf and wish for better circumstances for them in the future. After my sister died, my family took her ashes to my Buddhist temple and performed a transfer of merit ceremony. This was the only funeral she had- a Buddhist funeral. ----- N: Thank you for sharing your experiences. ---------- J: Overall, I think that one can deal with death better if they practice the brahma-viharas for all beings (knowing that death isn't the end of the life continuum). It is important to practice all of the brahma-viharas to achieve balance. -------- N: Yes, and what you said about kamma reminds me of the brahma-vihara of equanimity: understanding that we are heirs to kamma. It helps to face praise and blame. I wrote before on the brahmaviharas and I should remind myself of this: <...we need to develop the Brahmavihåra of equanimity: what has to happen has to happen and it all occurs because of the appropriate conditions. If we do not develop equanimity there is likely to be aversion because of unpleasant sights and smells or difficult situations. The Brahmavihåras are most beneficial in our everyday social life, when we are with other people or thinking of other people. We think more often with akusala cittas than with kusala cittas, but the Brahmavihåras can condition kusala in action speech and thought. They can be gradually developed together with satipaììhåna so that we come to understand that kusala is not self and does not belong to us. Acharn Sujin says at the end of her book on “Mettå”: “The Buddha said that mettå is the dhamma which is the foundation of the world, it is kusala dhamma which supports beings in the world so that they can live free from danger, free from the sorrow resulting from akusala citta which is without mettå.” All four Brahmavihåras are essential for our social life in the world.> We need understanding to develop equanimity and the other brahmaviharas. I am just reflecting on the D.O.: ignorance conditions formations of merit, kusala kamma. Ignorance conceals the danger of rebirth, and one may do all kinds of good deeds, including development of the brahmaviharas, but if ignorance is not eradicated by right understanding we will continue in the cycle of birth and death. We may develop good deeds with a view on a happy rebirth, but then we fail to see the danger of being in the cycle. Your post was an inspiration to reflect on the brahmaviharas. Thank you for your sympathetic post, Nina. #63480 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:30 am Subject: Buddhism - Materialism or Idealism? pgradinarov Dear All, Mixing up traditions is bad. Fortunately no one is meshing them up, only pointing to traditions that are supposed to be in close evolutionary dependence, otherwise they would not have been called Buddhist. It is not only the anatomy of the ape that is the key for the anatomy of the man - we can revert the symmetry... While I agree that akasa-dhatu is an empirical element because this is the All-Indian tradition of pancabhutavada, I would like to point out that desa (local space) is not a mahabhuta, and that it is listed in any 100-dharma Abhidharma list along with time (kala). As for the time you refer as rupa, these are rather the seasons as the sixth factor in the External Dependent Origination. In any case, there is no absolute Time in Buddhism, as there is, say, in Nyaya- Vaisesika. Yet, what is more important here is the fact the absolute akasa is invariably listed as asankhata (asamskrita) dharma in any Abhidhamma/Abhidharma list, so there is no way for it to be part of rupa-skandha. Now I would like to return to the main topic of Materialism/Idealism. Sarah said with reference to an article of Alan Wallace on Mind, > When I clicked on the link I got a blank page. In any case, I find the > subject matter 'Choosing Reality' rather suspect. The main thesis of Dr. Wallace seems to be this: "The Buddhist centrist view regards both materialism and idealism as extremes. The objective physical world is empirically knowable in relation to our modes of experience, as is the subjective cognitive world. The terms subject and object are used, but they denote a mere conventional duality, rather than the absolute duality that we encounter in Cartesian-based Western thinking." From this and many other similar quotes, it is clear that by Idealism Dr. Wallace understands subjective idealism only because it is obvious that objective idealists do not fit into his idea of idealists not recognizing the objectivity of physical reality. On the other hand, by Materialism Dr. Wallace understands only the obsolete forms of physical and physiological reductionism characteristic of the first half of 19th century (and earlier mechanistical models ala Democritus). Recognizing the conventionality of both subject and object does not result in overcoming the idealism-materialism dilemma, becuase the basic question of philosophy remains - What are the subject and the object reduced to? If the answer is - matter, capable of self- evolution and generating at some developed stage the disctinction of subject and objecth, then we have materialism - evolutionary, like the philosophy of the ancient Samkhya, or dialectical - like the modern Marxist philosophy. If the answer is Mind (Citta or Ekacitta or Vijnana), then we have idealism claiming that all external (objective) and internal (subjective) reality are defilements on the surface of the self- luminous Immortal Mind. It was only yesterday that I have cited an article of Rupert Gethin on early Buddhist cosmology suggesting that Buddha taught absolute idealism in Kevaddha-sutta by telling an inquisitive bhikkhu that the four great elements cease not out there, in the objective reality, but rather in consciousness (vinnana). www.ratnavali.com/forum/topic,272.msg2963#msg2963 Today, I opened the translation of Thanissaro Bhikkhu and found that the meaning of the above referred teaching is quite the opposite: "Your question should not be phrased in this way: Where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder? Instead, it should be phrased like this: Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end? And the answer to that is: Consciousness without feature (vinnana anidassanam), without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here brought to an end." www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html#t-2 I would appreciate your comments on this: "Here (in the anidassana vinnana) water, earth, fire, and wind have no footing." Does "having no footing" means that the great elements do not reside and resp., do not rise in the anidassana vinnana? And a second question concerning the semantic field of anidassana when conjoined with vinnana. What is it that vinnana is no more pointing at? If there are no more characteristics in anidassana vinnana and it is not pointing to anything, why is it still pointing to the sopadhisesa-nirvana-dhatu of the living arahat? Kindest regards, Plamen #63481 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] oldies! nilovg Dear Connie, you always manage to find a suitable text! Old does not always have to have an unfavorable sense. In the text she has reached arahatship. Nina. Op 19-sep-2006, om 4:47 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Just to quote the commentary on Sumanaa Therii (v16 @ p35): < verse, old lady (vu.d.dhike) means: old woman (vu.d.dhe), old in age > (vayo-vu.d.dhe), but also old (vu.d.dhaa) in the [good] qualities of > virtuous conduct, etc.>> #63482 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:55 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 78 nilovg Dear friends, When a human being is born with a pa.tisandhi-citta which is ahetuka, his birth is the result of kåmåvacara kusala kamma (kamma performed by kusala cittas of the sense-sphere), but the degree of the kusala kamma is less than the kusala kamma which produces a sahetuka pa.tisandhi-citta, a pa.tisandhi-citta with ``beautiful'' roots (sobhana hetus). People who are born with an ahetuka pa.tisandhi- citta are handicapped from the first moment of life. Eyesense or earsense does not develop or they have other defects. However, when we see someone who is handicapped we cannot tell whether there was at the first moment of his life an ahetuka pa.tisandhi-citta or a sahetuka pa.tisandhi-citta. We cannot tell whether someone was handicapped from the first moment of his life or whether he became handicapped later on, even while he was still in his mother's womb, and thus we do not know which type of pa.tisandhi-citta he was born with. The fact that a person is handicapped has not happened by chance; it is due to one's kamma. There is only one type of pa.tisandhi-citta which is ahetuka kusala vipåka, but there are many degrees of this vipåka depending on the kamma which produces it: there can be birth in different surroundings, in unpleasant surroundings, though not in woeful planes, and in pleasant surroundings. This type of pa.tisandhi-citta can even arise in the lowest heavenly plane. There is also an ahetuka pa.tisandhi-citta which is akusala vipåka. This type of citta does not arise in the human plane, but in a woeful plane. Only one type of pa.tisandhi-citta is akusala vipåka, but it is of many degrees. There are many varieties of akusala kamma and thus there must be many varieties of unhappy rebirth. The unhappy rebirth we can see in this world is birth as an animal. There are three more classes of woeful planes, which we cannot see; they are the world of petas (ghosts), the world of asuras (demons), and the hell planes. There are different kinds of hell planes because there are many degrees of akusala kamma which produce different kinds of unhappy rebirth. The function of pa.tisandhi can be performed by different types of vipåkacittas which are the results of different kammas. It depends on kamma which type of vipåkacitta performs the function of pa.tisandhi in the case of a particular being. The pa.tisandhi-citta, the first citta in life, does not arise within a sense-door process or a mind- door process of cittas experiencing an object which impinges on one of the six doors. It merely performs the function of rebirth. ****** Nina. #63483 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:12 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 59 nilovg Dear friends, March 2nd, '83. Jakarta. Dear Susie, In your last letter you asked a question about the difference between thinking of a reality such as hardness and direct awareness of it. Of course, there are questions which often preoccupy us. I will first quote from your letter: (end quote) There is thinking of realities and then another step has to be taken to immediate, direct, clear knowledge of them. We keep on wondering when this may happen and long so much for clear knowledge; we like to create the conditions for it. First of all, before going more deeply into the steps which have to be taken, it may be useful to consider what our purpose is. Is there something wrong with our attitude? When we read the scriptures we notice that the Buddha reminded both monks and laypeople time and again of dana (generosity), of sila (morality), of samatha and of the development of right understanding of realities. People knew already that dana, sila and samatha were ways of kusala, but when they had not heard the Buddha's teaching they did not know that through the development of the eightfold Path the wrong view of self and all other defilements can be eradicated. We have heard the Buddha's teaching and thus we may understand, at least in theory, that there are only nama and rupa, no self, and then, when we see that it is wrong to cling to a self, our purpose will be the eradication of clinging to self. We may realize that we often think of 'self' and that we will continue to be dissatisfied in life because of our clinging to 'self'. Then we shall be more urged to grasp every opportunity to think less of 'I,I, I' , and thus we shall, more than we used to, also see dana, sila and samatha as means to be less selfish. ***** Nina. #63484 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:55 am Subject: Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nidive Hi James, > > But without the co arising of panna, such moments of metta are > > not samatha of the degree that leads to the development of jhana. > > The mere accumulation of metta will never lead to jhana. It is > > the arising of metta accompanied by panna of the appropriate > > degree that does this. > > Okay, so let me see if I get this straight: > Metta= A > Kusala= B > Samatha= C > Dana= X > Sila= Y > Bhavana= Z > Panna= O > > When A arises in daily life, it is B. When B arises in daily life, > it is either X, Y, or Z. When X, Y, or Z arises in daily life, it > is C. Without O, A isn't C enough to become jhana. Actually metta, when systematically developed, does indeed lead to jhanas even without panna. But this will only lead to a happy rebirth in the Brahma worlds. How then does the development of metta in conjunction with panna lead to awakening? The Buddha provides an answer. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.017.than. html#brahma "Then again, a monk keeps pervading the first direction2 with an awareness imbued with good will, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This awareness-release through good will is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma- passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Seeing for yourself that metta is actually fabricated, inconstant, not-self and subject to cessation is the key to awakening. Regards, Swee Boon #63485 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:29 am Subject: Re: To Ken: Touching Base and Clarifying My Position nidive Hi RobertK, > I have quoted this before: > The Burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the > DhatuKathu (PTS) xxvii > > "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > > 1) the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to > be performed and > > 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed > to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > > 3) "I can perform" and > > 4) "I can feel". > > Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence.But the > elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such > functions" (endquote Thein Nyun) I have thought about it and I have no idea how these four functions are imaginary. For functions (1) & (2), I assume they are a series of dhammas occurring that performs the respective functions. Cetanas provide the "mental sparks" along the way that keep the functions "on track". For functions (3) & (4), they are defilements. For a person who thinks "I can perform" or "I can feel", that thinking is real and is not imaginary. It is a defilement, a real dhamma. (1) & (2) will not always lead to (3) & (4) if one follows the True Dhamma of the Buddha. What you quoted doesn't quite make any sense to me at all. Regards, Swee Boon #63486 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Salistamba-sutra pgradinarov Dear Joop, 1. Salistamba-sutra is a Sanskrit sutra with several (at least five) Chinese translations and less Tibetan. Judging from its beginning, it's a standard Mahayana sutra, but the topic of the External Dependent Origination explained in the way it is explained makes it hardly Mahayanistic in spirit. > Wayman explain indeed that DO has two meaning, two ways of using. But > not, as far as I understand, an external and a internal one, as you > state. 2. This would be true only if proven that bahya is not external in the sense of physical and adhyatmika is not internal in the sense of psychological. Here is the Sanskrit text of the EDO part of Salistamba-sutra and an ongoing English translation http://www.ratnavali.com/forum/topic,295.0/ Kindest regards, Plamen BTW > A very good essay about time and spice is: > Time and Space: The Abhidhamma Perspective > By Y. Karunadasa http://www.orientalia.org/article594.html Thanks for the link to Orientalia - it is my first online project. #63487 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:37 am Subject: Re: Letters from Nina, 55. nilovg Dear Scott, ---------- S:Yes, especially if one goes about waiting for sati to arise. I'd be inclined to think that pa~n~na would have to arise with sati, knowing it as sati, otherwise it would be as you say. ---------- N: Sati sampaja~n~na are mentioned together in connection with satipatthana. It begins with a good foundation knowledge, which is a kind of pa~n~naa. For any kind of bhavana there must be pa~n`naa, even a beginning pa~n~naa. --------- S: Is there a term in paa.li for this "not planning anything?" I was looking just now. I find words for "waiting" such as "apekkhati" or "paccaasi.msita" but these seem to imply lobha. I found "anupaya" meaning "unattached" or "aloof" and this, if I've got it correct, might fit at least the spirit of the law, so to speak. ------- N: The idea of planning is pretty well covered by tanhaa, and it is accompanied by ignorance, this dangerous rootcause of all akusala. Also wrong view plays a part. Not planning is the opposite of all this, but I do not know any Pali term for this. --------- S:Good. I'll listen harder and consider more. I think its difficult, given the way things are presented, to accept the apparently passive stance "required" in all this. Many seem unable to accept that listening, reading, considering, studying can lead to anything good. ------- N: In her book on the Perfections Kh Sujin says that people may find that sati of satipatthana hardly arises and that the cause of this is a deficiency in the development of the perfections. All of them should be developed and not one of them should be neglected. This is not a passive attitude. We may have read this before, but, to use a Thai expression Sukin also used: it should go to the very bone. It has to do with our basic attitude, as I explained in my Letter 56 and I will elaborate more on this as you will read. By the way, reading my old Letters, I find that I have to start all over again. It is as I often heard: begin again, begin again. I do not mind. It is good Sarah also quotes and reminds. I wrote those long ago, but now I begin to understand better what I wrote at that time. The attitude I wrote about is thinking 'I,I,I' , and true: when wondering: is this sati or thinking of hardness, there is a bending towards oneself, always busy with one's own development. When one develops the perfections in one's daily life one can gradually unlearn such an attitude. But I do not say that it is easy. Nina. #63488 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:46 am Subject: How do the great elements appear? nilovg Dear Plamen and Joop, ------- P:There are two types of dependent origination described with > great detail in 'Saalistamba-suutra. Dependent origination is said to > be external and internal. External DO does not depend on citta and > namas, this is the world outside - from the rice in the filed to the > evolution of the Universe. The seed does not think, "I am generating > the sprout. ------- N: Like Joop I do not understand. The only thing that comes close is the idea of niyama, natural law. Text of the Saddaniti: <.Thitaavasaa dhaatu dhamma.t.thitataa dhammaniyaamataa"ti-aadiisu paccayuppanne. In the passage such as “An element that is beyond control because of the causal law of dhamma, the natural order of dhamma”, dhamma means what is subject to conditions. > --------- Ven. Nyanatiloka explains niyaama: Fixedness of Law regarding all things. There is a fivefold natural order, that governs: 1. temperature, season. 2. plant life. 3. kamma. 4. functions of citta in the processes. 5. certain events occurring in the lives of the Buddhas. ------ It comes close to no 1. Nina. #63489 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His, eyebase. nilovg Hi Howard, knowing by inference, not speculation. It also depends on how you see the Patthaana. How could seeing arise without eyesense, that is the question. Eyesense does not arise at the same time as seeing, visible object or colour has impinged already on eyesense, there is the eye-door adverting citta and then seeing arises. See your book Guide to Conditional Relations, p. 32. But you may also doubt eyesense, it can be experienced by insight only. You know you have it because you can see. That is inference again. Nina. Op 19-sep-2006, om 14:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > How would one know that a rupa arose prior to the consciousness of > it? How would that be more than plausible speculation? #63490 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:17 am Subject: Thai Coup D'Etat upasaka_howard Hi to all Thai embers of DSG - Is everyone ok? Was the coup quick, localized, and not harmful to the general populace? I certainly hope so! With metta, oward #63491 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:19 am Subject: Spelling Correction upasaka_howard Hi, all - I just wrote "Hi to all Thai embers of DSG". I missed the first 'm' of 'members'! ;-) With metta, Howard #63492 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His, eyebase. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/19/06 3:15:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > knowing by inference, not speculation. It also depends on how you see > the Patthaana. > How could seeing arise without eyesense, that is the question. > Eyesense does not arise at the same time as seeing, visible object or > colour has impinged already on eyesense, there is the eye-door > adverting citta and then seeing arises. See your book Guide to > Conditional Relations, p. 32. > But you may also doubt eyesense, it can be experienced by insight > only. You know you have it because you can see. That is inference again. > Nina. ========================= Yes, I believe in sense doors, and I believe they are knowable rupas of a sort. I do *not*, however, see a means of valid reasoning towards their existence except with reasoning from other unconfirmed assumptions. With metta, Howard #63493 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:44 am Subject: Where are the Independent Rupas? upasaka_howard Hi all - Let us consider the rupas of hardness. As far as I'm concerned, it is a sensation. It exists, momentarily arising & ceasing, only as an object of body consciousness. Were it to arise in any other fashion, how would it do so, and where would it do so? It does not arise as a property of conventional objects such as trees, tables, keyboards, and kyacks, for they are not realities but only mentally concocted (on a sound basis, of course - they aren't unicorns). So, if hardness could arise, in reality, as neither the quality of a conventional entity, which I expect no argument about from the "core" DSG-ers, nor as a felt bodily sensation, which is what is claimed possible by those who assert independence of rupa from nama, what would that hardness be, and where would it be? (It is such a question that induced me a while back to introduce the term 'The land of lost rupas'.) With metta, Howard #63494 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:45 am Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? upasaka_howard Hi, all - In a message dated 9/19/06 4:44:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes: > Let us consider the rupas of hardness. ===================== Please change "rupas" to "rupa". With metta, Howard #63495 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:19 pm Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Howard, > Let us consider the rupas of hardness. As far as I'm concerned, > it is a sensation. It exists, momentarily arising & ceasing, only > as an object of body consciousness. I don't know if I am understanding you correctly, but the Buddha teaches that the four great physical properties can be either internal (to one's body) or external (to one's body). Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta The Great Elephant Footprint Simile http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html It is not merely a sensation. There are real whether we sense it or not. Regards, Swee Boon #63496 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:51 pm Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Howard, I'm not sure how to interpret this message - whether it was meant as a general reminder of dosa and the dangers of it, or whether it was a continuation of the 'control' debate. In either case, I'll make a few comments. My apologies in advance if they sound pernickety or nit-picking. ---------- H: > When anger arises, it is sense of self asserting itself. ---------- I think this needs further explanation. I don't think you could be talking about wrong view (miccha-ditthi) in this instance. As I understand it, miccha-ditthi arises with lobha but not with dosa. ------------------- H: > If anger arises frequently and strongly, it points to a strong sense of self. ------------------- I think I can agree with that, and maybe it provides the further explanation I was looking for. If dosa arises strongly (strongly enough to break the precepts, for example) it points to the fact that wrong view has been accumulated. In other words, wrong view has not been eradicated - or significantly reduced or even temporarily suppressed - and it arises [not with the dosa-mula-citta itself, but] with other cittas. ---------------------------- H: > It is good to watch "our" anger. ---------------------------- This is where we might disagree. It is good to understand anger as a cetasika. However, whenever there is the identification "my anger" or "trying to observe" anger, the understanding of dosa as a cetasika is lost (for the time being, at least). Intentional watching (formal vipassana practice) can only know "ideas" of anger - it cannot know dosa cetasika. As for timing: If I hit my thumb with a hammer, and start swearing and throwing the hammer at things, is that an especially good time to "watch" anger? No, I don't think so. That kind of watching (especially at that time) would intensify ideas of "my anger." I agree it is good to know that dosa and the other kilesas do frequently arise. By so knowing, one is not deluded into thinking one is better (more advanced along the Path) than one is. But, again, this kind of knowing depends on the conditions for knowing - not on an intention to know (or a formal practice of "knowing"). ------------------------------------------------------------ H: > Seeing it helps disabuse us of the thought of appreciable attainment. ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------- Agreed! Ken H #63497 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 5. ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > > S: I've also been curious. The whole article seems to be riddled > with an > > idea of someone practising and with little understanding of what > samatha > > or vipassana are. > > You are suggesting that people who have made buddhism their life > dont know that there is no self in buddhism and havent thought about > it. > Hi Matheesha (and Sarah), There are some tantalizing questions here, but I will leave them for Sarah. I'd just like to draw some parallels with the Christian church that I was once a member of. Priests, ministers and other people who had made Christianity their life did not necessarily know God, or goodness, or Christian charity (etc) however much they wanted to or claimed to. Some of them are in jail for terrible crimes. Even the majority (who have stayed out of jail) had some extremely dubious interpretations of their religion. How, for example, could army chaplains and priests in countries that were at war with other Christin countries, brazenly claim that God was on their side and that Satan was on the other? Priests (and other people who have made Christianity their lives) can interpret the Bible in ways that are unrecognisable from the interpretations of other priests. One can have a forgiving god, and another a jealous unforgiving god: one a god that watches from afar, and another a god that intervenes in every little thing: one a god of love, another a god of vengeance, and so on and so forth. And yet there is this facade that, just by calling themselves Christians, people have unity-of-belief! I'll leave it there for now, and look forward to reading more on this thread. Ken H #63498 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/19/06 8:29:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >Let us consider the rupas of hardness. As far as I'm concerned, > >it is a sensation. It exists, momentarily arising &ceasing, only > >as an object of body consciousness. > > I don't know if I am understanding you correctly, but the Buddha > teaches that the four great physical properties can be either > internal (to one's body) or external (to one's body). ----------------------------------------- Howard: That's how one experiences it. From the ultimate perspective, there is no body. It is mere concept. -------------------------------------- > > Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta > The Great Elephant Footprint Simile > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html > > It is not merely a sensation. There are real whether we sense it or > not. ------------------------------------ Howard: How do you know?How *could* you know? ----------------------------------- > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ==================== With metta, Howard #63499 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/19/06 9:13:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I'm not sure how to interpret this message - whether it was meant as a > general reminder of dosa and the dangers of it, or whether it was a > continuation of the 'control' debate. In either case, I'll make a few > comments. My apologies in advance if they sound pernickety or nit-picking. ------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! Don't go getting paranoid on me, Ken! What I had to say had two bases: 1) It was a general comment about anger, and 2) It was a referencing back to my apology to Sukin for expressing anger. It was MYSELF I mainly had in mind, Ken. ------------------------------------- > > ---------- > H: > When anger arises, it is sense of self asserting itself. > ---------- > > I think this needs further explanation. I don't think you could be > talking about wrong view (miccha-ditthi) in this instance. As I > understand it, miccha-ditthi arises with lobha but not with dosa. ------------------------------------- Howard: I'll stick with what I said. :-) ----------------------------------- > > ------------------- > H: >If anger arises frequently and strongly, it points to a strong > sense of self. > ------------------- > > I think I can agree with that, and maybe it provides the further > explanation I was looking for. If dosa arises strongly (strongly > enough to break the precepts, for example) it points to the fact that > wrong view has been accumulated. In other words, wrong view has not > been eradicated - or significantly reduced or even temporarily > suppressed - and it arises [not with the dosa-mula-citta itself, but] > with other cittas. > > ---------------------------- > H: >It is good to watch "our" anger. > ---------------------------- > > This is where we might disagree. It is good to understand anger as a > cetasika. However, whenever there is the identification "my anger" or > "trying to observe" anger, the understanding of dosa as a cetasika is > lost (for the time being, at least). Intentional watching (formal > vipassana practice) can only know "ideas" of anger - it cannot know > dosa cetasika. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I stick with what I said here as well, but I'll elaborate on it: It is *important* to watch one's anger. ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- > > As for timing: If I hit my thumb with a hammer, and start swearing and > throwing the hammer at things, is that an especially good time to > "watch" anger? No, I don't think so. That kind of watching (especially > at that time) would intensify ideas of "my anger." --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree. Not being aware of what's going on is always the worst. As has been frequently pointed out on DSG, *every* time is a good time to be aware of what is happening right then and there. There is no need to wait for "good" times. ---------------------------------------------- > > I agree it is good to know that dosa and the other kilesas do > frequently arise. By so knowing, one is not deluded into thinking one > is better (more advanced along the Path) than one is. But, again, this > kind of knowing depends on the conditions for knowing - not on an > intention to know (or a formal practice of "knowing"). ------------------------------------------- Howard: When there is the habituated inclination to attend to what is happening, it is to the good. Geez, Ken - you and your "formal practice" preoccupation! ;-) ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > H: >Seeing it helps disabuse us of the thought of appreciable > attainment. ;-) > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Agreed! > > Ken H > > ========================== With metta, Howard #63500 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > As for timing: If I hit my thumb with a hammer, and start swearing and > > throwing the hammer at things, is that an especially good time to > > "watch" anger? No, I don't think so. That kind of watching (especially > > at that time) would intensify ideas of "my anger." > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I disagree. Not being aware of what's going on is always the worst. As > has been frequently pointed out on DSG, *every* time is a good time to be > aware of what is happening right then and there. There is no need to wait for > "good" times. > ---------------------------------------------- > Dear Ken and Howard Have to agree with Howard here. If there is no awareness of anger when it is strong and intrusive when will there be awareness of anger? Robert #63501 From: "sukinder" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:40 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self sukinderpal Dear Robert, Howard, Ken, I think Ken's point is that it is better at the moment to know the thinking of 'my anger' as "thinking"? Besides any intentional watching is likely going to miss this point. Sorry if I've misunderstood the point, I'm behind in my reading and haven't read the original post yet. Metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > As for timing: If I hit my thumb with a hammer, and start swearing and > > throwing the hammer at things, is that an especially good time to > > "watch" anger? No, I don't think so. That kind of watching (especially > > at that time) would intensify ideas of "my anger." > > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I disagree. Not being aware of what's going on is always the worst. As > has been frequently pointed out on DSG, *every* time is a good time to be > aware of what is happening right then and there. There is no need to wait for > "good" times. > ---------------------------------------------- > Dear Ken and Howard Have to agree with Howard here. If there is no awareness of anger when it is strong and intrusive when will there be awareness of anger? Robert #63502 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism - Materialism or Idealism? lbidd2 Plamen: "Does "having no footing" means that the great elements do not reside and resp., do not rise in the anidassana vinnana? And a second question concerning the semantic field of anidassana when conjoined with vinnana. What is it that vinnana is no more pointing at? If there are no more characteristics in anidassana vinnana and it is not pointing to anything, why is it still pointing to the sopadhisesa-nirvana-dhatu of the living arahat?" Hi Plamen, I read 'anidassana vinnana' to refer to the base of infinite consciousness, the object of the second immaterial jhana (infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, and neither perception nor non-perception). Obviously materiality doesn't find a footing here. However, only in nibbana does consciousness cease. According to the Visuddhimagga both the base of infinite consciousness and the base of neither perception nor non-perception have an own nature (sabhava), therefore we might say this is consciousness itself taken as object. [Actually it is the consciousness (jhana citta) of the idea (nimitta) of infinite space, without that idea, using the jhana method of deepening tranquility by dropping an element of the meditation.] I also suspect this particular sutta, subtitled "What Brahma Didn't Know" is a poke at the Vedantists since consciousness is deemed to be Atman (Self). Larry "Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short,coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end? And the answer to that is: Consciousness without feature (vinnana anidassanam), without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here brought to an end." #63503 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:05 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self lbidd2 Hi guys, Another thing to notice is that 'sense of self' is the conceit "I am" (asmi mana). This is a cetasika. The way to get rid of it is said to be 'more mindfulness', which you are all advocating ;-) Larry #63504 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism - Materialism or Idealism? sarahprocter... Dear Plamen, --- Plamen Gradinarov wrote: > Mixing up traditions is bad. Fortunately no one is meshing them up, > only pointing to traditions that are supposed to be in close > evolutionary dependence, otherwise they would not have been called > Buddhist. ... S: By 'mesh', I only meant, trying to integrate or harmonise them which can sometimes be difficult, don't you think? The following may be an example: P:> I would appreciate your comments on this: "Here (in the anidassana > vinnana) water, earth, fire, and wind have no footing." > > Does "having no footing" means that the great elements do not reside > and resp., do not rise in the anidassana vinnana? .... S: I think I can help here with two sets of quotes: 1. Referring to the verse in MN49, Brahmanimantanika Sutta and also DN11, Kevaddha Sutta Anidassana vinnana clearly refers to nibbana. In an old post I wrote: “The word 'consciousness' is translated from 'vi~n~naa.na.m' to be understood as 'cognizable' (vijaanitabba.m) and not consciousness according to the Pali com. as Jim explained to me. As I mentioned, B.Bodhi also added in his notes (513). , "MA takes the subject of the sentence to be Nibbana, called 'consciousness' in the sense that "it can be cognized" '. ----------------------------------- See the following posts, with many detailed notes of Suan's (all under 'Vinnana - anidassana' in Useful Posts. The last one of Rob K's is very clear, I think) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16916 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/16922 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43148 ..... 2. Nibbana cannot be found amongst any conditioned elements, it's the unconditioned dhamma. So there is no support from the primary elements or any other conditioned dhammas for it. Here, see 'Udana -nibbana' in U.P. for a lot more detail I gave from the commentary to the Udana. For example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8908 > Udana VIII.1 > "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of > nothingness, .................... S:> From the Masefield translation and Com ‘(p.1012 Udana com): “...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says ‘Wherein there is neither earth, nor water’ and so on so as to indicate its own nature via an elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations (sankhara), so are all conditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is that of hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, nor the fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the four great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), ‘Nor that base consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception’.” ******************** In other words, as I understand ‘endless space.....non-perception’, these lines are referring to the arupa planes where there are already an absence of the elements and all rupas. They are referred to here to indicate that even so, all ‘states belonging’ to these planes (i.e. all conditioned realities) are also absent.< ***** P:> And a second question concerning the semantic field of anidassana > when conjoined with vinnana. What is it that vinnana is no more > pointing at? If there are no more characteristics in anidassana > vinnana and it is not pointing to anything, why is it still pointing > to the sopadhisesa-nirvana-dhatu of the living arahat? .... S: Nibbana is the one signless (animitta dhamma) that is unconditioned. It cannot be experienced by mundane cittas. It does have its characteristic or sabhava however. There are two kinds of nibbana: a) sa-upaadisesa nibbaana which refers to Nibbana as realized by the arahant. The khandhas still remain. b) an-upaadisesa nibbana which refers to parinibbana (at the death of the arahant). The khandhas do not remain. Occasionally both occur at the same time. "This, O monks, truly is the peace, this is the highest, namely the end of all formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving, detachment, extinction, Nibbana." (A iii 32) See more detail with references such as this one in Nyantiloka's dictionary (on-line) under 'Nibbana'. Hope this helps! Metta, Sarah ====== #63505 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:49 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 525- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (v) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Summarizing the six pairs of sobhana cetasikas, they are: calm of cetasikas, kåya-passaddhi calm of citta, citta-passaddhi lightness of cetasikas, kåya-lahutå lightness of citta, citta-lahutå pliancy of cetasikas, kåya-mudutå pliancy of citta, citta-mudutå wieldiness of cetasikas, kåya-kammaññatå wieldiness of citta, citta-kammaññatå proficiency of cetasikas, kåya-påguññatå proficiency of citta, citta-påguññatå uprightness of cetasikas, kåya-ujukatå uprightness of citta, citta-ujukatå These six pairs accompany all sobhana cittas. They are necessary for each kind of kusala, be it generosity (dåna), morality (síla), the development of calm (samatha) or insight (vipassanå). They assist the kusala citta and its accompanying cetasikas, so that wholesomeness can be performed in an efficient way. They are counteractive to the hindrances of sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and regret, and doubt. When the six pairs are present the hindrances do not arise; citta and cetasikas are healthy and skilful in performing their functions. Right understanding is the factor which conditions most of all the development of all the wholesome qualities represented by the six pairs. In the arahat they have reached perfection. ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63506 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 5. sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha (Howard & Ken H), Thanks for all your comments. --- matheesha wrote: > > S: I've also been curious. The whole article seems to be riddled > with an > > idea of someone practising and with little understanding of what > samatha > > or vipassana are. > > You are suggesting that people who have made buddhism their life > dont know that there is no self in buddhism and havent thought about > it. ... S: People may have thought about it, but either rejected the truth or have accepted a kind of compromise version. This is often apparent in translations, even translations of Abhidhamma. .... > You are also suggesting that your understanding of samatha and > vipassana is the one and only RIGHT way. .... S: I'd suggest that there is one and only one RIGHT way that any conditioned dhammas (including those under these umbrellas) should be understood: as anicca, dukkha and anatta. Anatta means they are not and never will be under anyone's control or selection. ... > Could it be possible that there might be another way that you > haven't grasped yet (or your theoretical structure is not letting > you grasp)? Perhaps you consider that 99.9% of scholars and > practitioners of buddhism have got it wrong, and that only the KS > band have got it right. ..... S: Don't we read that whether a Tathagata appears in the world or not, the fact remains that all conditioned formations are anicca, dukkha and anatta. In other words, a time may well come when 100% of the scholars and practitioners of Buddhism will have got it wrong, will be convinced that dhammas can be controlled and selected and that they can decide what order to experience jhana and nibbana. There will be a time when only the briefest kind of lip-service is given to what the Buddha actually taught. Regardless of whether there is any understanding of the teachings or not, dhammas are conditioned and WE cannot practice or do anything. ..... > heavens... > > > there is a word for that... > > > come to reality please.. (mind the pun) > > Jokes apart, you Sarah need to seriously think about this amazing > disparity. > > Could thay be ALL wrong? .... S: They could ALL be wrong and so could we ALL too!! Of course, as Howard suggested, we can always misinterpret another's words. They might say 'apples', but really mean 'oranges'. However, we just base our discussions on what is said and our limited understanding. If there are any aspects of the text (or ideas behind it) which you'd like to discuss in detail, please quote a little at a time and we could look at our different understandings in more detail, Matheesha. I'd be glad to do so. I apologise if my comment caused any offence or horror! Put it down to my ignorance if you like:-). Metta, Sarah ====== #63507 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: How could you know? pgradinarov Dear Howard, > How do you know? How *could* you know? Without the external realities, you could not know anything. This is what Sariputta clearly states in the Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta. To make the things worse for the subjective idealists, he concludes: "Now if internally the intellect (manas) is intact but externally ideas do not come into range, nor is there a corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html Kindest regards, Plamen #63508 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Howard, Robert, Sukin and Larry, ------ R: > If there is no awareness of anger when it is strong and intrusive when will there be awareness of anger? ------ Robert, I know your views on the uncontrollability of dhammas, and so I have to wonder what you are driving at here. One could get the impression that you see a set of steps (or instructions) for right mindfulness. (!) When I become angry - or when I become very angry - is there something I "should do" in order to know dosa cetasika (or any other cetasika)? Surely not - mindfulness is a conditioned dhamma. And yet I get the impression that you see some particular opportunity at such times. Back to you for clarification! :-) Ken H #63509 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:23 am Subject: Robes of Bhikkhu leoaive Hi I was reading Vinaya about the right size of Buddhist Monk Robes and later made one for myself for meditation purposes. I made it out of two colors: red and green and the size close to buddhist monk robes, maybe a little longer, but that is close to 2 armspread by 1.5. After I put that on, I realised that: not by clothes one is wise (which is said in Dhammapada I beleive). But it is comfortable and giving you a feeling of freedom I would say. Later I was meditating on that, and subject of my meditation was: "Why that kind of robes are a perfect decision?" (since it was made by Buddha). The only I can come up to is: 1)It can be used as a tent or for shade 2)It can hide attractive male curves if lady sees monk. (Buddha said that his teaching is not for sensual pleasures) 3)It can be a blanket when sleeping when it is cold at night. I did not see anything about using buttons and still do not understand why not to use them. They would improve holding of robes together. What else can be added to the list why robes of that size is a perfect decision? Please let me know With Metta Leo #63510 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Howard, We might have said enough on this for the time being, but I'd like to comment on one part: ------------------ H: > As has been frequently pointed out on DSG, *every* time is a good time to be aware of what is happening right then and there. There is no need to wait for "good" times. -------------------- Yes, in good times and bad, the stage is always set for panna to make its appearance. But it can't be forced. It will arise when . . .. Well, you know the rest. :-) Ken H #63511 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:00 am Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Howard, > > Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta > > The Great Elephant Footprint Simile > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html > > > > It is not merely a sensation. They are real whether we sense it > > or not. > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > How do you know?How *could* you know? > ----------------------------------- Logic & Common Sense. I don't live in a closed world of my own. If you are walking on a concrete pavement, you know that through logic & common sense that on the next step when you land your foot, your foot will feel hardness. This is what gives you the confidence to land your foot. If you think that the concrete you are going to land on might not be real, we can all forget about walking meditation. You will be too preoccupied thinking about whether the concrete is real or not. Regards, Swee Boon #63512 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:17 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, no 79 nilovg Dear friends, There are two ahetuka vipåkacittas which can perform the function of patisandhi , namely: santírana akusala vipåkacitta and santírana kusala vipåkacitta. As we have seen (in chapter 9), santírana-citta is an ahetuka vipåkacitta. When santírana-citta arises in a sense- door process of cittas experiencing an object through one of the five senses, it performs the function of investigating (santírana) the object. However, santírana-citta can also perform the function of rebirth, and this is the case when the patisandhi-citta is ahetuka vipåka. The same type of citta can perform more than one function, but at different moments and at different occasions. When santírana- citta performs the function of patisandhi it does not arise in a sense-door process and it does not investigate an object. As we have seen (in chapter 9), there are three kinds of santírana- citta: 1 Santírana-citta which is akusala vipåka, accompanied by upekkhå (indifferent feeling) 2 Santírana-citta which is kusala vipåka, accompanied by upekkhå 3 Santírana-citta which is kusala vipåka, accompanied by somanassa (pleasant feeling) The santírana-citta which is akusala vipåka, accompanied by upekkhå, can perform the function of patisandhi in woeful planes. This means that the type of patisandhi-citta arising in woeful planes is of the same type as the akusala vipåkacitta which is santírana-citta performing the function of investigating in a sense-door process of cittas. The santírana-citta which is kusala vipåka, accompanied by upekkhå, can, apart from the function of investigating in a sense-door process, also perform the function of patisandhi in the human plane and in the lowest heavenly plane. The santírana-citta which is kusala vipåka, accompanied by somanassa, does not perform the function of patisandhi. ****** Nina #63513 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:22 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 60 nilovg Dear friends, When we give something away with generosity, we do not, at such a moment, cling to our possessions. If we hold on to what is 'ours' how can we become detached from the idea of 'self'? We may consider sila as a way of being more thoughtful to others, not wanting to hurt them. Sila comprises also helping others and paying respect to those who deserve respect. As to samatha, this is a means to cultivate wholesome thoughts and at such moments there are no selfish thoughts. When we are with other people we may remember to cultivate loving kindness and compassion. Or there may be opportunities to cultivate sympathetic joy when we rejoice in their good fortune. We cling to our body, but when we see a corpse we may realize that there are only rupas, empty phenomena, which do not know anything and do not belong to a self. We can then be reminded that also the living body consists of rupas which are impermanent and not self. Studying the teachings and considering them is a necessary foundation for the development of vipassana. In studying the teachings we will understand more about the reality of sati (mindfulness) which is not self, and the reality of panna (wisdom) which is not self. Then we will be less inclined to just sit and wait for the arising of sati we are longing for. It is important to consider more our basic attitude, to get to know ourselves. Are we seeking ourselves, our awareness, our knowledge? We may think that we go the right way while we in fact keep on 'creating' conditions with an idea of self. The goal of the development of right understanding should be, from the beginning, to have less clinging to 'self'. ******* Nina. #63514 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:22 am Subject: Re: Robes of Bhikkhu nidive Hi Leo, > Later I was meditating on that, and subject of my meditation > was: "Why that kind of robes are a perfect decision?" (since it was > made by Buddha). The only I can come up to is: > 1)It can be used as a tent or for shade > 2)It can hide attractive male curves if lady sees monk. (Buddha said > that his teaching is not for sensual pleasures) > 3)It can be a blanket when sleeping when it is cold at night. > What else can be added to the list why robes of that size is a > perfect decision? > Please let me know Because that kind of robes symbolizes the renunciation of all that is fabricated, that's why they are the perfect decision. Regards, Swee Boon #63515 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:34 am Subject: Rob's forum on jkhana, no 9 nilovg Dear friends, Rob K: There is so much jhana teaching in the suttas because the Buddha taught a complete path from the lowest to the highest. In the Budda's time there were many arahants of the highest order- those with complete mastery of jhana, like Sariputta or Rahula. It is different now. Sarah gave this sutta recently I think: AN, Bk of 4s, X1V, iii(133) Quick-Witted (PTS) "Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four? He who learns by taking hints [uggha.tita~n~nu= (brief-learner)= sankhepa~n~nu]: he who learns by full details [vipa~ncit~n~nu (diffuse-learner)= vitthaarita~n~nu]: he who has to be led on (by instruction)[neyyo=netabba]: he who has just the word (of the text) at most [padaparamo=vya~njana- padam eva parama.n assa, one who learns by heart, is word-perfect but without understanding it]. These are the four." At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. The extremely wise types with high accumulations of parami called Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu are now extinct. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We, at this time, - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details so we have to study and consider a great deal as a condition for understanding. From Ledi sayadaw http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/individu.htm ""(1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual whoï½· encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse. (2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who ï½· encounters a Buddha in person, but ï½· who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length. At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain. (3) A Neyya : an individual who needs ï½· to study the sermon and the exposition, and then ï½· to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher. (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. ""endquote Ledi sayadaw. -- According to the texts there are 3 ways by which nibbana is attained: that is by samathayanika (the one who has mastery of jhana); By samatha and vipassana combined ; and by vipassana alone. The Netti- pakarana (587) "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati." Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. -- Relating this to the earlier quotes the only path now available is that of pure vipassana, as we are all mudindriyassa (blunt or dull facultied). This doesn't totaly rule out the possibilty of someone attaining genuine jhana - but even if they did they could not use it as a basis for insight, because for that mastery of jhana is needed. It would nevertheless be advantageous because of giving a respite from sense desire. But anyway what is most urgent is the development of vipassana. Robert (end quote). ****** Nina. #63516 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thai Coup D'Etat nilovg Hi Howard, I just had a letter from Trasvin: Nina. Op 19-sep-2006, om 21:17 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Is everyone ok? Was the coup quick, localized, and not harmful to the > general populace? I certainly hope so! #63517 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? nilovg Hi Howard, I am picking just on the word sensation, which is nama. Hardness, as you know is rupa. Where is it? It can appear all over the body or inside the body, namely, wherever it hits the body-door. You wonder about hardness outside, I think. Rupas are also classified as external, and in each group there is hardness or solidity. These rupas are produced by the element of heat. When hardness impinges on the bodysense it is not necessary to think of external or internal. The main thing is to get to know the characteristic of hardness. But we should not wait for it, expect it, plan for it (the planning, discussed with Scott). This would hinder knowing it as conditioned, as non-self, beyond control. Nina. Op 19-sep-2006, om 22:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Let us consider the rupas of hardness. As far as I'm concerned, it is > a sensation. It exists, momentarily arising & ceasing, only as an > object of > body consciousness. Were it to arise in any other fashion, how > would it do so, > and where would it do so? #63518 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:01 am Subject: Re: How could you know? nidive Hi Plamen Gradinarov, > Without the external realities, you could not know anything. This is > what Sariputta clearly states in the Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta. To > make the things worse for the subjective idealists, he concludes: > > "Now if internally the intellect (manas) is intact but externally > ideas do not come into range, nor is there a corresponding > engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of > consciousness." I thought the following would make a better case: -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html If internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, but there is no corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Externally forms come into range and there is NO appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness ... Nice food for thought! Regards, Swee Boon #63519 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:35 am Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self nidive Hi Ken H (& RobertK), > ------ > R: > If there is no awareness of anger when it is strong > and intrusive when will there be awareness of anger? > ------ > Robert, I know your views on the uncontrollability of dhammas, and > so I have to wonder what you are driving at here. One could get the > impression that you see a set of steps (or instructions) for right > mindfulness. (!) > > When I become angry - or when I become very angry - is there > something I "should do" in order to know dosa cetasika (or any > other cetasika)? Surely not - mindfulness is a conditioned dhamma. > And yet I get the impression that you see some particular > opportunity at such times. > > Back to you for clarification! :-) Yes, anger can be controlled. That's what RobertK is telling you. LOL! Swee Boon #63520 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism - Materialism or Idealism? upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Plamen) - In a message dated 9/19/06 11:59:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Plamen: "Does "having no footing" means that the great elements do not > reside and resp., do not rise in the anidassana vinnana? > And a second question concerning the semantic field of anidassana when > conjoined with vinnana. What is it that vinnana is no more pointing at? > If there are no more characteristics in anidassana vinnana and it is not > pointing to anything, why is it still pointing to the > sopadhisesa-nirvana-dhatu of the living arahat?" > > Hi Plamen, > > I read 'anidassana vinnana' to refer to the base of infinite > consciousness, the object of the second immaterial jhana (infinite > space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, and neither perception nor > non-perception). Obviously materiality doesn't find a footing here. > However, only in nibbana does consciousness cease. > > According to the Visuddhimagga both the base of infinite consciousness > and the base of neither perception nor non-perception have an own nature > (sabhava), therefore we might say this is consciousness itself taken as > object. [Actually it is the consciousness (jhana citta) of the idea > (nimitta) of infinite space, without that idea, using the jhana method > of deepening tranquility by dropping an element of the meditation.] > > I also suspect this particular sutta, subtitled "What Brahma Didn't > Know" is a poke at the Vedantists since consciousness is deemed to be > Atman (Self). > > Larry > > "Where do water, earth, fire, &wind > have no footing? > > Where are long &short,coarse &fine, > fair &foul, name &form brought to an end? > > And the answer to that is: > > Consciousness without feature (vinnana anidassanam), without end, > luminous all around: > > Here water, earth, fire, &wind have no footing. > > Here long &short coarse &fine > fair &foul name &form > are all brought to an end. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Larry, it doesn't just say "form". It says "name & form", possibly suggesting that with vi~n~nana anidassanam, nama may be out of the picture as well, and not just rupa. On that reading, it would seem that vi~n~nana anidassanam is being distinguished from ordinary vi~n~nana, though, admittedly, it is terminologically odd to do so. One thought is that 'vi~n~nana' indicates dualistically reified experience [with (sense of) self-sufficient subject and self-sufficient object], and that 'vi~n~nana anidassanam' indicates experience that is undefiled by such a hard bifurcation. However, I readily admit that your proposal of 'vi~n~nana anidassanam' referring to infinite consciousness is very reasonable. As to the matter of "name & form" being brought to an end, perhaps the Pali is 'namarupa' with the (old) sense of "sentient body" or "person", and the implication of name & form being brought to an end is merely that there is no awareness of the mind-body (or conventional person) in that state. -------------------------------------------- > > With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here > brought to an end." > ====================== With metta, Howard #63521 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How could you know? upasaka_howard Hi, Plamen - In a message dated 9/20/06 3:15:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pgradinarov@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > >How do you know? How *could* you know? > > Without the external realities, you could not know anything. This is > what Sariputta clearly states in the Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta. To > make the things worse for the subjective idealists, he concludes: > > "Now if internally the intellect (manas) is intact but externally > ideas do not come into range, nor is there a corresponding engagement, > then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html > > Kindest regards, > > Plamen > ======================== What Sariputta meant is up for grabs, depending on what is meant by 'internal' and 'external'. With metta, Howard #63522 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/20/06 10:13:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >>Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta > >>The Great Elephant Footprint Simile > >>http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html > >> > >>It is not merely a sensation. They are real whether we sense it > >>or not. > > > >------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > How do you know?How *could* you know? > >----------------------------------- > > Logic &Common Sense. I don't live in a closed world of my own. > > If you are walking on a concrete pavement, you know that through logic > &common sense that on the next step when you land your foot, your > foot will feel hardness. This is what gives you the confidence to land > your foot. > > If you think that the concrete you are going to land on might not be > real, we can all forget about walking meditation. You will be too > preoccupied thinking about whether the concrete is real or not. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > > ======================= Logic & common sense also tell most people that trees and cars and TV sets and concrete pavements and persons are all real, self-existent entities. Common sense also used to tell people, and still tells some, that the sun revolves around the earth, rising and setting at opposite horizons, with the earth being a flat disk above which is a sky-dome. So, I don't consider saying basically that "Well, it is clear that there is an objective, self-existent external world" as constituting proof of same. I am convinced that you believe this. And that's just fine. :-) With metta, Howard #63523 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thai Coup D'Etat upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Wonderful, Nina! Thank you! :-) With metta, Howard #63524 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/20/06 11:12:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I am picking just on the word sensation, which is nama. Hardness, as > you know is rupa. ---------------------------------------- Howard: That isn't what I meant by sensation, Nina. If I feel a pressure on my arm, the knowing of it is nama, but the felt pressure is rupa, and that is what I meant by "sensation". Likewise, I think if a stinging or an itching as a rupa that I call a "sensation", and which I distinguish from the feeling (i.e. consciousness) of it. I know that some people occasionally translate 'vedana' as 'sensation'. That is not what I mean by 'sensation'. I mean body-door rupa. --------------------------------------- > Where is it? It can appear all over the body or inside the body, > namely, wherever it hits the body-door. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I find this a confusing mix of conventional and ultimate speech. There IS no body. It is pa~n~natti. To say that sensation appears all over the body is to merely describe conventional experience. Conventionally of course that is so. But I was addressing literal reality, not figurative. ---------------------------------------- > You wonder about hardness outside, I think. Rupas are also classified > as external, and in each group there is hardness or solidity. These > rupas are produced by the element of heat. > When hardness impinges on the bodysense it is not necessary to think > of external or internal. The main thing is to get to know the > characteristic of hardness. But we should not wait for it, expect it, > plan for it (the planning, discussed with Scott). This would hinder > knowing it as conditioned, as non-self, beyond control. > Nina. > ====================== With metta, Howard #63525 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:46 am Subject: how could you know nilovg Hi Howard, --------- H: Likewise, I think if a stinging or an itching as a rupa that I call a "sensation", and which I distinguish from the feeling (i.e. consciousness) of it. -------- N: I know what you mean, but sensation is still confusing. If we now avoid conventional talk, and look at the list of rupas, there is no 'sensation' on it. Just the four mahaabhuuta ruupas and the derived ruupas. Twentyeight in all. Oxford dictionnary: sensation: bodily feeling, mental feeling, excitement. ------- Howard: I find this a confusing mix of conventional and ultimate speech. There IS no body. It is pa~n~natti. To say that sensation appears all over the body is to merely describe conventional experience. Conventionally of course that is so. But I was addressing literal reality, not figurative. ______ N: Yes, here I have to explain by means of figurative language, how else? I speak of rupas of the body, to distinguish them from outer rupas. Like in the suttas quoted by Swee Boon, very appropriate, I think. Ajjhatta, inward, and bahidda, outward. The Elephant's Footprint explains it very clearly. Also the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. NIna. #63526 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: How could you know? pgradinarov > What Sariputta meant is up for grabs, depending on what is meant by > 'internal' and 'external'. Dear Howard, Probably this will help differentiate between external and internal: Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html Kindest regards, Plamen #63527 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How could you know? upasaka_howard Hi, Plamen - In a message dated 9/20/06 3:23:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pgradinarov@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Probably this will help differentiate between external and internal: > > Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html > > Kindest regards, > > Plamen > ====================== This is all conventional explication, Plamen. It is not what I am after on this topic. But I thank you for sending the reference! :-) With metta, Howard #63528 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] how could you know upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/20/06 2:54:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > --------- > H: Likewise, I think if a stinging or an itching as a > rupa that I call a "sensation", and which I distinguish from the > feeling (i.e. > consciousness) of it. > -------- > N: I know what you mean, but sensation is still confusing. If we now > avoid conventional talk, and look at the list of rupas, there is no > 'sensation' on it. Just the four mahaabhuuta ruupas and the derived > ruupas. Twentyeight in all. > Oxford dictionnary: sensation: bodily feeling, mental feeling, > excitement. ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, you are correct. The 1st dictionary meaning for 'sensation' is a mental state. However, the second meaning is along my lines. Merriam-Webster gives the following second meaning: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 2 : something (as a physical object, sense-datum, pain, or afterimage) that causes or is the object of sensation - -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- That is what I had in mind. It is the way that I use 'sensation', as a sense-datum, a body-door rupa such as felt hardness, warmth, an itch, pressure, stinging, nausea, and so on. BTW, 'experience' is a similarly ambiguous word. It may refer to knowing or to known. ------------------------------------------------- > ------- > > Howard: > I find this a confusing mix of conventional and ultimate speech. There > IS no body. It is pa~n~natti. To say that sensation appears all over > the body > is to merely describe conventional experience. Conventionally of > course that > is so. But I was addressing literal reality, not figurative. > ______ > N: Yes, here I have to explain by means of figurative language, how > else? > I speak of rupas of the body, to distinguish them from outer rupas. ------------------------------------------ Howard: The "all" consists of eye & sights, ear & sounds, nose and odors, tongue and flavors, body & sensations (i.e. body-door rupas), and mind & mind-objects. What are the "outer rupas"? Are sights "outer rupas"? Are flavors "outer rupas"? --------------------------------------- > Like in the suttas quoted by Swee Boon, very appropriate, I think. Ajjhatta, inward, and bahidda, outward. The Elephant's Footprint > > explains it very clearly. Also the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. -------------------------------------- Howard: I can sense an "internal" pain and an "external" pain. Is one "in here" and the other "out there"? I see things "outside my body", like the computer screen. Is that something "out there", or is "out there" just a way of experiencing? Is there a body to be inside of and outside of - in reality? Shall namas be considered "internal" and rupas "external"? Is the "hardness of a table" anything more than concept? Isn't there just the felt hardness as a reality? There after all is no table for that hardness to reside in or be a quality of. --------------------------------------- > NIna. > > =================== With metta, Howard #63529 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 5. matheesha333 Hi Sarah, > If there are any aspects of the text (or ideas behind it) which you'd like > to discuss in detail, please quote a little at a time and we could look at > our different understandings in more detail, Matheesha. I'd be glad to do > so. M: There is control in the conventional sense but not in the absolute sense. Agree or disagree? :) with metta Matheesha #63530 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:12 pm Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Swee Boon, ------------------------ SG: > Yes, anger can be controlled. That's what RobertK is telling you. LOL! ------------------------ In what way can anger (dosa) be controlled? If all the necessary conditions exist now for the arising of dosa, can it be prevented from arising? Once it has arisen, can it be prevented from performing its functions? Having performed its functions, can it be prevented from immediately falling away (so that we may (for example) examine it at our leisure)? Ken H #63531 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? matheesha333 Hi Howard, What clarifies for me best is what the buddha said: since it arises, we cannot say it doesnt exist, since it passes away, we cannot say it does exist. I think we just need to hold the contradiction, and understand the causal nature of arising. with metta Matheesha #63532 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 9/20/06 5:29:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > What clarifies for me best is what the buddha said: since it arises, > we cannot say it doesnt exist, since it passes away, we cannot say it > does exist. > > I think we just need to hold the contradiction, and understand the > causal nature of arising. > > with metta > > Matheesha > > ======================== I certainly agree with that, and, in fact, I don't see it as a contradiction. I do not question in the slightest the middle-way actuality of phenomenal existence. The question of rupas that arise as other than objects of awareness and not as experiential content, however, is a separate issue. I don't assert that there do or that there don't, but that the matter is in principle unknowable. Pragmatically, I personally presume that there do not. I also interpret the Bahiya Sutta as urging not going beyond the mere seen, heard, sensed, and cognized; that is, not going beyond mere elements of experience (i.e., phenomena in the philosophical sense). I am not suggesting that anyone else adopt my stance in this or my interpretation of the Bahiya Sutta. I have seen others interpret it the same way, though, including Bhikkhu Nanananda and the Theravadin academic, David Kalupahana. With metta, Howard #63533 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:06 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,102 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 102. Herein, 'for those of merit ignorance is a condition in two ways': it is a condition in two ways, namely, as object condition and as decisive-support condition. For ignorance is a condition, as object condition, for formations of merit of the sense sphere at the time of comprehending [by means of insight] ignorance as liable to destruction and fall; and it is likewise for those of the fine-material sphere at the time of knowing a confused mind by means of direct-knowledge consciousness [through penetrating others' minds, and so on]. But it is a condition, as decisive-support condition, in two cases, that is to say, [for sense-sphere formation] in one who, for the purpose of surmounting ignorance, fulfills the various instances of sense-sphere merit-making consisting in giving, etc., and [for the fine-material-sphere formation] in one who arouses the fine-material jhanas [for the same purpose]. Likewise in one who effects that merit while aspiring to the delight of sense-sphere becoming and fine-material becoming because he is confused by ignorance. *************************** 102. tattha pu~n~naana.m duvidhaati aaramma.napaccayena ca upanissayapaccayena caati dvedhaa paccayo hoti. saa hi avijja.m khayato vayato sammasanakaale kaamaavacaraana.m pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaraana.m aaramma.napaccayena paccayo hoti. abhi~n~naacittena samohacitta.m jaananakaale ruupaavacaraana.m. avijjaasamatikkamatthaaya pana daanaadiini ceva kaamaavacarapu~n~nakiriyavatthuuni puurentassa, ruupaavacarajjhaanaani ca uppaadentassa dvinnampi tesa.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo hoti. tathaa avijjaasammuu.lhattaa kaamabhavaruupabhavasampattiyo patthetvaa taaneva pu~n~naani karontassa. #63534 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] how could you know ken_aitch Hi Howard (and Nina), Butting in if I may: I'd like to offer a few thoughts on unexperienced rupas. -------------- Howard: The "all" consists of eye & sights, ear & sounds, nose and odors, tongue and flavors, body & sensations (i.e. body-door rupas), and mind & mind-objects. What are the "outer rupas"? Are sights "outer rupas"? Are flavors "outer rupas"? ------------- In the strictest sense, the all consists of just one of those six worlds - the one existing in the present moment. Therefore, it might be argued that if seeing (for example) exists now, there is no such reality as hearing. But that would be an incorrect deduction. The dhammas of all six worlds have existed countless times in the past (and will exist again in the future). So we know they are all real. In countless past worlds rupas of many kinds have been the objects of consciousness. And in some past worlds (not of ours, but of omniscient Buddhas) rupas of *every* kind (including those that ordinary people will never know) have been the objects of consciousness. (And, in some future worlds [of omniscient Buddhas] they will be known again.) So there is just as much reason to believe they are real as there is to believe that hearing (etc) is real. That's a bit jumbled - it's a big topic to fit into two paragraphs - but I think I have got it reasonably right. Corrections welcome. Ken H #63535 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:41 pm Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Howard, > Logic & common sense also tell most people that trees and cars and > TV sets and concrete pavements and persons are all real, self- > existent entities. Common sense also used to tell people, and still > tells some, that the sun revolves around the earth, rising and > setting at opposite horizons, with the earth being a flat disk > above which is a sky-dome. So, I don't consider saying basically > that "Well, it is clear that there is an objective, self-existent > external world" as constituting proof of same. I am convinced that > you believe this. And that's just fine. :-) A car is real, yet it is not a self-existent entity. If it were a self-existent entity, it would not be subject to corrosion, decay and destruction. The same logic applies for trees, TV sets, concrete pavements and all else external to the body. A heart is real, yet it is not a self-existent entity. If it were a self-existent entity, it would not be subject to aging, wear & tear and heart attacks. The same logic applies for livers, kidneys and all else internal to the body. If your heart is not real, you wouldn't be posting messages here. I see that you are enjoying a convoluted Dhamma. My sympathies to you. Regards, Swee Boon #63536 From: "Kenneth" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The svabhava of svabhava ashkenn2k Hi Plamen if ultimate dhamma can still be predicated (I assuming you are using derive) into sub components, why did not Buddha mentioned about sub- khandha? Ken O #63537 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Letters from Nina, 55. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, I'm replying to a portion of your post to me, the rest I've still got in the ponder-machine. S: "Is there a term in paa.li for this "not planning anything?" I was looking just now. I find words for "waiting" such as "apekkhati" or "paccaasi.msita" but these seem to imply lobha. I found "anupaya" meaning "unattached" or "aloof" and this, if I've got it correct, might fit at least the spirit of the law, so to speak." ------- N: "The idea of planning is pretty well covered by tanhaa, and it is accompanied by ignorance, this dangerous rootcause of all akusala. Also wrong view plays a part. Not planning is the opposite of all this, but I do not know any Pali term for this." --------- I was reading in Visuddhimagga, XVII, 309 (the Dependent Origination chapter) regarding 'methods' to knowing the meaning of the four truths: "Then there are four methods of treating the meaning here. They are (a) the method of identity, (b) the method of diversity, (c) the method of uninterest, and (d) the method of ineluctable regularity. So this Wheel of Becoming should also be known accordingly 'as to the kinds of method.'" There is a footnote relating to the word 'uninterest' which is as follows: "Avyaapaara - 'uninterest': here the equivalent of anaabhoga...The perhaps unorthodox form 'uninterest' has been used to avoid the 'unselfish' sense sometimes implied by 'disinteredness'. Vyaapaara is clearly intended throughout this work as 'motivated action' in contrast with 'blind action of natural forces'. The word 'interest' has therefore been chosen to bring out this effect." Might "avyaapaara" translated in the sense used by ~Naa.namoli work for the question I've asked above? I'm not familiar with the word but you may be. With loving kindness, Scott. #63538 From: "Kenneth" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] insubstaintial as in Dispeller of Delusion ashkenn2k --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 8/27/06 10:17:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > ashkenn2k@... writes: > > > Hi Howard > > > > I remember we discuss this before and if I am not wrong your position > > is that dhamma lack substance. After thinking about this for a > > while, I would like to discuss this again. My position is that it > > lacks a permanent substance but not susbtance itself. As substance > > is to me, the essential characteristics of a dhamma, it does not > > meant to be lasting. > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > That is one sense of "substance". But it doesn't apply to paramattha dhammas. They do not *have* essential characteristics. They are exactly what they are. Hardness is not something having a quality. It *is* a "quality". In any case, what I object to is the sense of substance as an individuating core of separateness. That usage points away from anatta. > -------------------------------------- k: You are contradicting yourself, if a dhamma is a quality, isn't this meant it has unique characteristics. A dhamma have a quality does not mean that it is self-substanting dhamma. It does not meant that it is an individual entity. To me a dhamma have a quality just simply meant it is the unique charateristics of a dhamma. The usage of foams, dreams does not mean dhamma is coreless, it meant self is an illussion. Because it simply meant, IMHO if a dhamma is coreless, it would not exist in the first place. There will be no quality or unique characteristics. Ken O #63539 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:23 pm Subject: Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon (and Jon), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Actually metta, when systematically developed, does indeed lead to > jhanas even without panna. But this will only lead to a happy rebirth > in the Brahma worlds. Actually, I thought of making the same argument against Jon's position; however, I don't believe in speaking decisively either for or against "panna", used as a specific noun. "Panna" is too vague to speak of in such decisive terms. Actually, as far as I can tell from my limited research, in the Pali language, panna isn't even an independent word. It is used as the suffix to many other anticidents in order to form words. So, you can have 'this kind of wisdom' and 'that kind of wisdom', but not just 'wisdom'. I feel that the KS camp continually uses this term inappropriately and inconsistently with the ancient texts and with the Pali language. Metta, James #63540 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/20/06 8:48:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > I see that you are enjoying a convoluted Dhamma. My sympathies to you. > > ===================== My, my. Not so very kindly put! Perhaps I should start an "Insult Folder". I could include this one, and, oh yes, also the one that said to me "you reserve the right to interpret the Buddha's Dhamma to suit your poetic highs." Hmmm, that was from you too. Maybe I ought to just name the folder Swee Boon's Kindly Communications! As far as I'm concerned, I do think it's possible to disagree without being disagreeable. I hope you'll give it a try. With metta, Howard #63541 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi Howard, Robert, Sukin and Larry, > > ------ > R: > If there is no awareness of anger when it is strong and intrusive > when will there be awareness of anger? > ------ > > Robert, I know your views on the uncontrollability of dhammas, and so > I have to wonder what you are driving at here. One could get the > impression that you see a set of steps (or instructions) for right > mindfulness. (!) > > When I become angry - or when I become very angry - is there something > I "should do" in order to know dosa cetasika (or any other cetasika)? > Surely not - mindfulness is a conditioned dhamma. And yet I get the > impression that you see some particular opportunity at such times. > > Back to you for clarification! :-) > > Ken H _______ Dear Ken I don't know of any steps to take to be aware. But if you believe there cannot be awareness of anger when it is strong that is limiting the objects for awareness. I think strong defilements are an opportunity- to see that actually satisampajana can insight even with these unwelcome objects. Robert #63542 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:00 pm Subject: Re: Robes of Bhikkhu leoaive > Because that kind of robes symbolizes the renunciation of all that is > fabricated, that's why they are the perfect decision. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > What do you mean by fabricated? Any cloth or fabric is fabricated, the same with bowls. Leo #63543 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:01 pm Subject: Accumulating Advantage ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How does one Accumulate a Heap of Advantage? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, if one should call anything a heap of the disadvantage, then it is the five hindrances that one could rightly call this. For these are verily only a heap of evil disadvantage, these five mental hindrances... What five? 1: The Mental Hindrance of Desire for Sensing... 2: The Mental Hindrance of Aversion & Ill-Will... 3: The Mental Hindrance of Lethargy & Laziness... 4: The Mental Hindrance of Restlessness & Regret... 5: The Mental Hindrance of Doubt & Uncertainty... If one were call anything a hoard of the disadvantage, then it is about these five hindrances that one could rightly say this. Since indeed are these five mental hindrances an immense mountain of damage & loss!!! If, Bhikkhus, one were to call anything a heap of the Advantage, then it is the Four Foundations of Awareness that one could rightly call this. For these are verily a complete heap of sole Advantage, that is, these Four Foundations of Awareness... What four? 1: Awareness of the Body merely as a transient & compounded Form.. 2: Awareness of Feelings just as passing emotional Responses.. 3: Awareness of Mind only as a group of habitual & temporary Moods.. 4: Awareness of Phenomena simply as momentary Mental States.. If, Bhikkhus, one were to call anything an Accumulation of Advantage, then it is these Four Foundations of Awareness, that one could rightly call this. For these are verily a pure & massive abundance of Advantage, that is, these Four Foundations of Awareness... !!! Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 146] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 5 Heap of Good... See also these inspirations on the Advantageous & the Detrimental: On Foundations of Awareness (Sati): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Causes_of_sati.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Clear_Comprehension.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/Manual/Meditation.Manual.htm On the Five Mental Hindrances (Nivarana): http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/The_5_Mental_Hindrances.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/Colourful_but_Muddy.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/Boiling_but_burnt.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/Lethargy_and_Laziness.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/Restlessness_and_Regret.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/Doubt_and_Uncertainty.htm Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63544 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. nilovg Dear Scott (and Swee Boon, James), I have met Vyaapaara several times in the Tiika, and I understood it as suggested. Active, with interest. As to avyaapaara, I am not sure. It depends on the citta. It could also be a lazy passivity. Here it is one of the methods to know the four noble Truths, and this is interesting. I have not come to it yet, but please keep your notes. I would have to study the tiika to XVII, 309. In two years?? There are some references: unconcern, impartiality. It seems close to equanimity. Whatever object presents itself, pleasant or unpleasant, kusala or akusala, it does not matter. it can be object of right understanding. This, 'it does not matter' is easily said, but, in the practice? Understanding has to become firm and steadfast but for myself I cannot say this yet. James rightly warns against using the word pa~n~naa, we should not use the word thoughtlessly. Understanding develops from very weak to more steadfast, by listening, considering again and again, gaining more confidence by listening. The understanding indispensable for the development of samatha: knowing, realizing when the citta is akusala, overwhelmed by the hindrances, and when kusala with calm, removed from the hindrances. How else could calm be developed? Nina Op 21-sep-2006, om 3:27 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Vyaapaara is > clearly intended throughout this work as 'motivated action' in > contrast with 'blind action of natural forces'. The word 'interest' > has therefore been chosen to bring out this effect." > > Might "avyaapaara" translated in the sense used by ~Naa.namoli work > for the question I've asked above? #63545 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:19 am Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? pgradinarov Dear Swee Boon, Howard, and All -- > A car is real, yet it is not a self-existent entity. If it were a > self-existent entity, it would not be subject to corrosion, decay and > destruction. If something is not subject to corrosion, decay and destruction, are we ready to call it self-existent? If yes, be prepared to call the asankhata dhammas self-existent; if no, this kind of arguments are not valid and the fact of their being used in the canon (see Anattalakkhana-sutta) does not make them less flawed. Kindest regards, Plamen #63546 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? matheesha333 Hi Howard, > > > >M: What clarifies for me best is what the buddha said: since it arises, > > we cannot say it doesnt exist, since it passes away, we cannot say it > > does exist. > > > > I think we just need to hold the contradiction, and understand the > > causal nature of arising. > > > > with metta > > > > Matheesha > > > > > ======================== > I certainly agree with that, and, in fact, I don't see it as a > contradiction. I do not question in the slightest the middle-way actuality of > phenomenal existence. > The question of rupas that arise as other than objects of awareness > and not as experiential content, however, is a separate issue. I don't assert > that there do or that there don't, but that the matter is in principle > unknowable. M: Yes, it is a matter of unknowability. What follows on from that should be detachment. Not further speculation. One goes the way of letting go of samsara. The other - digging deeper and attaching further onto samsara. I am often sorry to see deep minutiae of existence being discussed without even the hint of nibbida or detachment. I guess the there is a leap at that point from the intellectual to the emotional which can mainly come about from direct experiencing. with metta Matheesha #63547 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina, 55. matheesha333 Hi Nina, >N: Whatever object presents itself, pleasant or unpleasant, kusala or > akusala, it does not matter. it can be object of right understanding. > This, 'it does not matter' is easily said, but, in the practice? > Understanding has to become firm and steadfast but for myself I > cannot say this yet. > James rightly warns against using the word pa~n~naa, we should not > use the word thoughtlessly. Understanding develops from very weak to > more steadfast, by listening, considering again and again, gaining > more confidence by listening. M: ..Then followed by further understanding from direct experiencing? > The understanding indispensable for the development of samatha: > knowing, realizing when the citta is akusala, overwhelmed by the > hindrances, and when kusala with calm, removed from the hindrances. > How else could calm be developed? M: Nicely put, Nina. with metta Matheesha #63548 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? In faith. nilovg Dear Matheesha and Howard, Matheesha your post is worth while pondering on, I appreciate it. Indeed, not many people point to detachment. That is what I greatly appreciate in Kh. Sujin's explanations: she always emphasizes detachment, from the beginning to the end. It is understanding that directly experiences realities, without thinking or speculating that leads to detachment. But, before this is realized there has to be a great deal of listening, considering, the development of all the perfections together with understanding. A very, very gradual process! Quite a task ahead. Meanwhile while we study the Tipitaka, there are many things that we cannot prove ourselves, we cannot know everything. But certainly part of it we can and we do verify in daily life, and we find that they are most beneficial to us when facing all the problems and challenges we meet every day. This can give us enough confidence to also accept in faith what we cannot verify yet but what we find reasonable intellectually. Nina. Op 21-sep-2006, om 9:48 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > What follows on from that should be detachment. Not further > speculation. > > One goes the way of letting go of samsara. The other - digging > deeper and attaching further onto samsara. > > I am often sorry to see deep minutiae of existence being discussed > without even the hint of nibbida or detachment. I guess the there is > a leap at that point from the intellectual to the emotional which > can mainly come about from direct experiencing. #63549 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Robert (and Howard), ------------- R: > I don't know of any steps to take to be aware. But if you believe there cannot be awareness of anger when it is strong that is limiting the objects for awareness. I think strong defilements are an opportunity- to see that actually satisampajana can insight even with these unwelcome objects. -------------- The issue in my discussion with Howard was whether or not there was some benefit in trying to have the awareness (in the conventional sense) "There is anger." Naturally, we are aware of such things in daily life. Just as when crossing the street we are aware of cars, so too at various times we are aware of moods. There is nothing Buddhist (or non-Buddhist) about that. The thought, "I am angry - I should calm down before I do something harmful," often precedes a lessening of anger. It is normal for people to think that the former causes the latter. * Of course, they find out in time that there is no magic bullet. No mere recitation of words will prevent anger. One person will, in fact, calm down, but another will act violently. I'm not sure of the various conditions involved, but I think the difference [all other things being equal] lies in their relative accumulations of dosa. Ken H * BTW, I liked your quotation from Thein Nyun. If I understand it correctly, it is relevant to this discussion (although I am not sure why he includes the fourth function, "I can feel"): "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1) the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions" KH #63550 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:50 am Subject: Intellectual and Emotional pgradinarov Dear Matheesha and All, > There is a leap from the intellectual to the emotional which > can mainly come about from direct experiencing. Detachment in my understanding is a leap from direct emotional experiencing of reality to direct intellectual experiencing of it. Seeing the things as they are with the eye of wisdom (pa~n~naa) requires detachment (viraaga - lack of emotions) and samatha (equipoise) to help the mind stand ekaaggata. Emotions, even the most positive ones, are vikappas. Sooner or later one should come to the stage of nibbikappa-samaapatti where there are no more doubts, hesitations, or emotional perturbations. Then the mind is said to be free. Cittavimutti is freedom of vikappas, rather than freedom of citta. Kindest regards, Plamen #63551 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:53 am Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? In faith. matheesha333 Hi Nina. >N: Matheesha your post is worth while pondering on, I appreciate it. > Indeed, not many people point to detachment. That is what I greatly > appreciate in Kh. Sujin's explanations: she always emphasizes > detachment, from the beginning to the end. M: That is indeed a good thing. I think it is worthwhile remembering that it is a mark of identifying the buddha's dhamma. >N: It is understanding that directly experiences realities, without > thinking or speculating that leads to detachment. M: There seem to be two methods here. One is the KS method of knowing a lot of dhamma to begin with and understanding with only a flash of mindfulness (direct experiencing). Then there is the other method of knowing only a little but having the dhammas as the teacher and understanding through prolonged mindfulness from the dhammas themselves. Your method, which is valid option, requires a lot of precision and pre-peration in thinking, I would think, to minimise any wrong view. In view of that I think it might be preferable to think of there being only 'understanding' as an action, rather than in the sense of a noun (as in understanding/panna that experiences realities) because for someone who hasnt erradicated self view, it can hide in that paramatta dhamma. The suttas I noticed never use the word panna in that way. It is always talked of in an impersonal manner as a category or a faculty. It wouldnt say 'panna understands' but rather say 'understanding belongs in the category of panna' or say 'there is understanding/knowing'. I think if someone has seen directly that there is no self, it does not matter how one uses language though, as can be seen in the buddha himself. But, before this is > realized there has to be a great deal of listening, considering, the > development of all the perfections together with understanding. A > very, very gradual process! Quite a task ahead. > M: :), There is this knowledge + mindfulness = insight. Now having quite a bit of knowledge, maybe to balance the equation, it is best to look at ways of increasing the chances of mindfulness arising. > Meanwhile while we study the Tipitaka, there are many things that we > cannot prove ourselves, we cannot know everything. But certainly part > of it we can and we do verify in daily life, and we find that they > are most beneficial to us when facing all the problems and challenges > we meet every day. This can give us enough confidence to also accept > in faith what we cannot verify yet but what we find reasonable > intellectually. M: quite true. with metta Matheesha #63552 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:33 am Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self philofillet Hi Howard As you know, I am prone to anger (as we all are, but...) so this topic interests me. I ahven't read the whole thread, but will just toss in a few thoughts. > When anger arises, it is sense of self asserting itself. I don't know if this is true. Dosa has been accumulated, and the conditions arise that give anger a chance to come out and stretch its legs. But yeah, I know what you mean. We value self-image, and various comforts of self, there is lobha, and when the lobha is frustrated anger arises. I see more of a lobha >>> dobha >>>>dosa dymamic at work. Dobha was a typo but lobha and dosa are so closely intertwined, what the hell, I will leave it. If anger > arises frequently and strongly, it points to a strong sense of self. It is good to > watch "our" anger. Seeing it helps disabuse us of the thought of appreciable > attainment. ;-) Very good to watch it. But seeing it arise can, ironically, be a condition for confidence in the Buddha's teaching, because we are understanding our accumulated defilements better, and understanding them is the only way to get rid of them, so to speak. I could write a book on anger, but I will stop there. The anger *will* arise - there is no stopping it for those of us who have accumulated a lot of it. But it can be seen and understood and detachment from it is gained a little. Phil p.s saw an interesting movie called "the History of Violence" about a man who thought he had left his violent past behind, and learned that that is not possible, not entirely. One of the most "buddhist" movies I've seen. #63553 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:52 am Subject: how could you know, internal, external rupa. nilovg Hi Howard, I appreciate your questions they help me also. I first want to go over some texts of the Vis. and Tiika. Vis. Ch XIV, 73: --------- Vis. 192: One of the meanings of internal is: The six internal aayatanas, bases are: the physical bases of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-base or consciousness (manåyatana), the six external aayatanas, bases are six classes of objects: visible object, sound, odour, taste, tactile object and mind-object (dhammåyatana), comprising: cetasikas, subtle rúpas and nibbåna. > ------- In the suttas the phrase: the khandhas are internal or external is repeated time and again. Let us keep to rupakkhandha for now. Above different meanings are given: external: the rest are 'external' because they are external to that selfhood (personality). Moreover, external is treated under the aspect of the aayatanas. I think that a figurative way of explanation is allowable, such as: of the body, or of the individuality, attabhaava. See the frequent use in the suttas of kaya. The satipatthaanasutta: one's own body, someone else's body. The aim is to explain paramattha dhammas. Also: one's own continuity (or stream of cittas) and some one else's (santati). This cannot be avoided. ---------- Howard: I can sense an "internal" pain and an "external" pain. ------ N: the experience of pain is a citta, hence an inward reality. It does not matter whether there is hardness or fire inside the body or on the surface of it. Here we consider painful feeling, caused by a tangible object. -------- Is one "in here" and the other "out there"? I see things "outside my body", like the computer screen. Is that something "out there", or is "out there" just a way of experiencing? ------ N: A way of thinking. Citta thinks. But I am careful now in saying this. Far from realizing it!! ------- H: Is there a body to be inside of and outside of - in reality? Shall namas be considered "internal" and rupas "external"? ----- N: Here the Vis. and tiika can help us. The five khandhas are internal or external. See text above. ---------- H: Is the "hardness of a table" anything more than concept? Isn't there just the felt hardness as a reality? There after all is no table for that hardness to reside in or be a quality of. --------------------------------------- N: Table is a useful concept and we need this in daily life. We work with it. This is the world of conventional realities. There is also the world of ultimate realities: one dhamma at a time through one doorway, such as hardness when touching the table. Or it may be heat, who knows? Now coming back to detachment, so appropriately mentioned by Matheesha. We keep on clinging to tables and persons throughout life, we cannot prevent this by saying: we should not cling. But there is a way leading to less clinging if we see the benefit of it. That is, beginning to see that there is not only the conventional world but also the world in the ultimate sense. Lodewijk is very keen in discussing this subject with you, he is very emotional about all this. Let me conclude with a few quotes from the Co. to Mahaarahulovaadasutta, I think that I myself should consider again and again. ----------- N: These words impress me: we should very carefully consider all the words of the Tipitaka. When again will we have such opportunity? We should deeply consider in what way exactly understanding can lead to detachment. Understanding of what? Of paramattha dhammas. Of which one, and when? Not theoretical understanding, but very precise understanding of one dhamma appearing now, not more than one. If there are more than one we think of a whole. -------- Sutta Text: < Apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, Rahula, For, Rahula, agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, will not persistently overwhelm the mind. > Co: < Now he said, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), “like the earth” and so on. not being attached nor having aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable is “suchness”. With regard to the words agreeable and disagreeable, here the eight types of consciousness accompanied by attachment are agreeable, and two types of consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling are disagreeable. With reference to the expression, they do not persistently obsess the mind, this means, when these impressions have arisen, they cannot persistently overwhelm your mind when you have mastered them, by putting them as it were inside a clenched fist. With regard to thoughts such as, “I am beautiful, my appearance is splendid”, attachment that is dependent on the body does not arise again. > Subco: < The explanation of the characteristic of (development) like the earth and so on has as purpose a happy course of insight.> ----- N: Here is emphasized that insight leads to detachment, becoming like the earth. And how beneficial for social life. People may speak harsh words, but only sound impinges on the earsense (see Elephant's Footprint). The earth does not mind whether filthy things are thrown upon it, and eventually we can learn to become like the earth. Nina. #63554 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:00 am Subject: Re: camps, loss and death philofillet Hi James This was another really well-written, heartfelt post by you. I disagree with some points in it (what else is new) but reading it helped to condition samvega and appreciation for the Buddha's teaching. Thanks. Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > > I'm not sure how I could really offer any great insight into this > matter, but I will give you my thoughts since you ask. It seems > like you are asking about two areas: how to deal with one's own > impending death, and how to deal with the death of others. > > #63555 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:31 am Subject: The coin merchant simile (Sarah) philofillet Hi Sarah I'd like to launch a discussion with you about the coin merchant simile. I heard an interesting talk about it yesterday. Sanna is the child that picks up the coin but doesn't know what it is. Citta is a village who knows it's a coin but doesn't know the value of it. Panna knows the value of it, panna is the coin merchant. Is that right? It sounds the other way around. I would have thought that citta is bare cognizing and sanna is what would recognize the coin. I thought it was interesting that Acharn Sujin discouraged the people in the talk from paying *too* much attention to this simile - it can make us overconfident about what we understand about citta, sanna and panna - I think that was her point, which was well taken. BTW, in the talk, the etymological (does that mean words or insects) relation of panna, sanna and one more cetasika was points out, all ending with that "nya" - what was the third? Maybe in this thread we can discuss the relationship between sanna and panna and....that third on. Phil p.s anyone else pop on in, of course. I want to have ongoing discussions with certain people (my mentor types) but not closed, of course. #63556 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ditthi (Jon) philofillet Hi Jon > Happy to discuss any time! >It's a topic I think is important to know > more about (because it's so prevalent yet so 'hidden'). Hidden in the way lobha is hidden, because it doesn't appear as the enemy in the way dosa does? Today I saw a helpful line from a sutta - lobha or wrong view, I forget which now, is our "intimate companion" We are so comfortable with it, soaking in it like in a tub, subtly adjusting things in a way that leads us to accumulate more and more and more of it. I say that of lobha - still not sure what ditthi is. > >> But wrong view (miccha ditthi, but ditthi for short) is not so much a > matter of the way we *think* about things, as about the way things are > inherently perceived. This is the crux of my confusion. Is wrong view about failing to see realities, or is it thinking that there is no result of deeds etc, those big "wrong views." When I see a person and think the person is beautiful and lasting and a source of happiness, is there wrong view? What is the connection between wrong view and sanna vipalassa? (Which if I recall means seeing the impermanent as permanent, the foul as beautiful, the suffering as happiness and one more I forget.) > > I think there is a common misconception about this. One hears people > who have studied and accepted the teachings saying that they no longer > have any idea of, or belief in, a self. Yes, I have seen that here, a lot. What they mean is that they no > longer engage in conscious thinking that admits of a self. But until > the underlying tendency of wrong view has been eradicated (at > stream-entry) the defilement remains and the wrong view must manifest > when the conditions are appropriate. I will talk about this topic with you a lot more, bit by bit. Today I looked up Right View in MN 117 There is "right view that is affected by the taints, partkaing of merit, ripening in acquisitions" -this seems to deal with those big "wrong views" there is fruit and result of good and bad actions etc. And then there is "right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path?" This is referring to the "faculty of wisdom", to the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor (vimsama? panna? are they the same?) Maybe these two branches or levels or varieties of right view is what is confusing for me. No hurry to get back to me. I'll be coming by about once a week. Phil p.s sorry that i can't be as organized and thorough as some of the people you discuss with. I'll probably chop off whole bits of posts without even reading them or reflecting on them! #63557 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:43 am Subject: Right intention/samma sankappa (Nina) philofillet Hi Nina I'd like to launch a discussion thread with you about samma sankappa, which is usually translated as "right intention" (even by BB, who recognizes samma sankappa as a cetasika.) It seems to me that there is consideration in suttas of wholesome content of thought, things that it is better to think of, and things that it is better not to. But samma sankappa is vitakka (?) which strikes or lashes the object, it is not thinking about concepts, right? So samma sankappa "is the cetasika of inital application (vitakka) directed towards renunciation, good will, and harmlessness." (CMA) Does this vitakka help us to reflect on these things? What does yoniso manisakara do? The latter is a universal, the former is almost always present. Do they work together, and with sati, and panna, and a whole team of wholesome cetasikas (Go Team Go!!!) to condition reflection on "renunciation, good will and harmlessness?" I'll leave it at that. As I said to Jon, no hurry because I'll be coming by once a week or so. (Ha! that means I'll be back tomorrow.) Phil #63558 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Please explain why you don't see this sutta as applying to all lay >followers of the Buddha. I know that you don't see it as that way, >so please explain why you don't see it as that way. > > The relevant part of the sutta reads as follows: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay followers, approached the Blessed One.... The Blessed One said to them: "Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: 'How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?' Thus should you train yourselves. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I read the sutta, it is directed to those to whom it is spoken, and does not make a general statement about lay-followers and jhana. It is the only instance of such advice given to lay-followers, as far as I know. There may have been a reason (unstated in the sutta) why the advice given was given to this particular group of lay followers. (Another observation: it is not a direct exhortation to develop jhana, but rather a suggestion to consider doing so.) What are your own thoughts? Jon #63559 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:59 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 526- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (w) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== As we have seen, there are at least nineteen sobhana cetasikas which accompany each sobhana citta(1). All these cetasikas accompany the sobhana cittas of the sense-sphere (kåmåvacara sobhana cittas), the sobhana cittas which are rúpa-jhånacittas (of fine-material jhåna) and arúpa-jhånacittas (of immaterial jhåna), and the sobhana cittas which are lokuttara cittas. This does not mean that all these sobhana cittas are accompanied by only nineteen sobhana cetasikas. In addition to the nineteen sobhana cetasikas which accompany each sobhana citta, there are six more, and I shall deal with these in the following chapters. *** 1)See Appendix 8 for a summary of them and of the sobhana cittas they accompany. ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63560 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:20 am Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Plamen Gradinarov, > If something is not subject to corrosion, decay and destruction, are > we ready to call it self-existent? If yes, be prepared to call the > asankhata dhammas self-existent; if no, this kind of arguments are > not valid and the fact of their being used in the canon (see > Anattalakkhana-sutta) does not make them less flawed. I am not good in Pali. By "asankhata dhammas", I assume you mean nibbana. Yes, nibbana can be called self-existent in the sense that it does not depend on anything that is conditioned for its existence. But that does not mean that nibbana is "mine", "my self" or "I". Regards, Swee Boon #63561 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 9/21/06 3:52:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: > > I certainly agree with that, and, in fact, I don't see it > as a > >contradiction. I do not question in the slightest the middle-way > actuality of > >phenomenal existence. > > The question of rupas that arise as other than objects of > awareness > >and not as experiential content, however, is a separate issue. I > don't assert > >that there do or that there don't, but that the matter is in > principle > >unknowable. > > > M: Yes, it is a matter of unknowability. > > What follows on from that should be detachment. Not further > speculation. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, you're right. :-) As the Korean Son master, Seung Sahn would say: "Only don't know." Thanks you for a crucial point. ------------------------------------------- > > One goes the way of letting go of samsara. The other - digging > deeper and attaching further onto samsara. > > I am often sorry to see deep minutiae of existence being discussed > without even the hint of nibbida or detachment. I guess the there is > a leap at that point from the intellectual to the emotional which > can mainly come about from direct experiencing. > > > with metta > > Matheesha > ======================== With much metta, Howard #63562 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:38 am Subject: Re: Intellectual and Emotional matheesha333 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Plamen Gradinarov" wrote: > Hi Plamen, > M:> There is a leap from the intellectual to the emotional which > > can mainly come about from direct experiencing. > >P: Detachment in my understanding is a leap from direct emotional > experiencing of reality to direct intellectual experiencing of it. > Seeing the things as they are with the eye of wisdom (pa~n~naa) > requires detachment (viraaga - lack of emotions) and samatha > (equipoise) to help the mind stand ekaaggata. M: I was thinking of nibbida and the likes of bhayatupatthana when I was refering to emotions here, which arises after seeing arising and passing away (udaya-vaya nana). Saying that I agree with what you have said, which is a later stage in the process. Emotions, even the most > positive ones, are vikappas. Sooner or later one should come to the > stage of nibbikappa-samaapatti where there are no more doubts, > hesitations, or emotional perturbations. Then the mind is said to be > free. Cittavimutti is freedom of vikappas, rather than freedom of > citta. with metta Matheesha #63563 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >>What is the basis for your view that the development of >>jhana begins with the practice of sitting cross-legged etc? >> >> > >Oh, I don't know Jon, I think I read it on the back of a cereal box – >"Jhana Puffs, Blissfully Delicious!!" ;-)) There are many articles >by qualified monks who write about the jhanas and how to practice >them- and these articles cite the ancient texts. I'm not going to >go into right now because you won't listen anyway. However, for >those who are interested here are some links: > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/suwat/concentration.html >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html > > I've had a look at the 2 articles. Neither of them actually mentions going and sitting cross-legged etc (and as far as citations from the ancient texts is concerned, there are none in the first article). The second article is a comprehensive one and contains some interesting material. The author seems to accept that enlightenment may be attained without the prior development of mundane jhana. As regards the path factor of samma-samadhi being explained in terms of the 4 jhanas, he says: "The supramundane paths and fruits always arise as states of jhanic consciousness. They occur as states of jhana because they contain within themselves the jhana factors elevated to an intensity corresponding to that of the jhana factors in the mundane jhanas. Since they possess the jhana factors these states are able to fix upon their object with the force of full absorption. Thence, taking the absorptive force of the jhana factors as the criterion, the paths and fruits may be reckoned as belonging to either the first, second, third or fourth jhana of the fourfold scheme, or to the first, second, third, fourth or fifth jhana of the fivefold scheme." >>But without the co arising of panna, such moments of metta are >>not samatha of the degree that leads to the development of jhana. >>The mere accumulation of metta will never lead to jhana. It is >>the arising of metta accompanied by panna of the appropriate >>degree that does this. >> >> >Okay, so let me see if I get this straight: >Metta= A >Kusala= B >Samatha= C >Dana= X >Sila= Y >Bhavana= Z >Panna= O > >When A arises in daily life, it is B. When B arises in daily life, >it is either X, Y, or Z. When X, Y, or Z arises in daily life, it >is C. Without O, A isn't C enough to become jhana. > >Jon, is this the dhamma or the Da Vinci Code? ;-)) Such mental >gymnastics aren't necessary to figure out the dhamma, and anything >that requires such gymnastics is immediately suspect. Remember KISS- > Keep It Simple Stupid. > > Er, OK, James, I'll add this to the list of do's and don't's for my posts to you ;-)) Actually, I wouldn't normally have gone to such detail in a post to you, except that in your previous message in this thread you commented was that I had not been specific enough. In particular, you said that panna was a nebulous term that could be used to apply to many things. Hence my attempt to indicate the connection between panna and jhana. I'm sorry if you found it too detailed. Not sure where to go from here. Will wait to see if you care to continue the thread. Jon #63564 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:51 am Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Howard, > My, my. Not so very kindly put! Perhaps I should start an "Insult > Folder". I could include this one, and, oh yes, also the one that > said to me "you reserve the right to interpret the Buddha's Dhamma > to suit your poetic highs." Hmmm, that was from you too. Maybe I > ought to just name the folder Swee Boon's Kindly Communications! Did I hurt your pride? By the way, insult is also another litmus test for strong sense of self. The fact that you chose to interpret my messages as insults shows that you still have a strong sense of self. You need to work on it harder, Howard. My sympathies are indeed with you. Regards, Swee Boon #63565 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:19 am Subject: Anger/Phil (Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/21/06 5:40:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Very good to watch it. But seeing it arise can, ironically, be a > condition for confidence in the Buddha's teaching, because we are > understanding our accumulated defilements better, and understanding > them is the only way to get rid of them, so to speak. > > I could write a book on anger, but I will stop there. > > The anger *will* arise - there is no stopping it for those of us > who have accumulated a lot of it. But it can be seen and understood > and detachment from it is gained a little. > ======================= You are right on target, IMO! For the most part, by which I mean "most of the time", anger arises weakly and infrequently "in me", and when it does arise it is short lived. (More technically, I would suppose that "short lived" actually comes down to repeatedly arising only during a short period of time. Each "individual" occurrence of anger is, I agree with the Abhidhammikas, very brief.) I have a strong habit of introspection, and I almost always know what is going on "in me". Very recently, especially in dreams, the anger has been very frequent and very strong. I do have a good idea, psychologically, why this is so. In fact I am certain of the reason. This is the anniversary of my father's death. My recent dreams have been involving him with unusual regularity. He died many years ago, but the deeper layers of mind pay little heed to that. There is also an association with one of my sons who was named after him and who has an important event coming up very soon. So I know exactly what is going on. I also know how strongly rooted this anger is rooted in both craving, aversion, attachment, and ego. The issues are complex but known to me. Anger is a major source of suffering. The Buddha likened it to a hot coal that we pick up to hurl. Unfortunately it is pointless for us just to think "Let there be no anger" when the conditions for anger are in place. What can be done, and I'm doing it, is to see the anger clearly, face to face, without running from it, to see its arising and what triggers that arising, seeing it as early-on as possible and just "letting it go" without proliferating it by thought-process-nutriment. (It disperses unless given further sustenance.) Samatha meditation provides background support as well, of course, by it's general calming effect. With metta, Howard #63566 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:18 am Subject: Re: Robes of Bhikkhu nidive Hi Leo, > > Because that kind of robes symbolizes the renunciation of all that > > is fabricated, that's why they are the perfect decision. > > What do you mean by fabricated? Any cloth or fabric is fabricated, > the same with bowls. The all that is fabricated refers to the five clingable-aggregates: the clingable-aggregate of material form, the clingable-aggregate of feeling, the clingable-aggregate of perception, the clingable- aggregate of mental formations and the clingable-aggregate of consciousness. They are fabricated because they arise with a cause, and having arisen, they are subject to dissolution. Regards, Swee Boon #63567 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:39 am Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self nidive Hi Ken H, > In what way can anger (dosa) be controlled? If all the necessary > conditions exist now for the arising of dosa, can it be prevented > from arising? Once it has arisen, can it be prevented from > performing its functions? Having performed its functions, can it be > prevented from immediately falling away (so that we may (for > example) examine it at our leisure)? Is it not possible to prevent the conditions necessary for the arising of dosa from appearing? Regards, Swee Boon #63568 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:21 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 80 nilovg Dear friends, Akusala kamma and kusala kamma of different beings can produce nineteen different types of paìisandhi-citta in all, arising in different planes of existence. One of these types is akusala vipåka and eighteen types are kusala vipåka. Of the types of citta which are kusala vipåka, one type is ahetuka kusala vipåka and seventeen types are sahetuka kusala vipåka (accompanied by beautiful roots). There are many degrees of each of these nineteen types of paìisandhi-citta because kamma can be of many degrees. It is due to kamma that people are born ugly or beautiful and that they are born in unpleasant or in pleasant surroundings. The fact that one is born into miserable circumstances does not mean that one's next birth will also be into miserable circumstances. It all depends on the kamma which has been accumulated and which produces result. As regards people who are born into happy circumstances, if akusala kamma produces their next birth, this will be an unhappy one. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fours, chapter IX, §5, Darkness): Monks, these four persons are found existing in the world. What four? He who is in darkness and bound for darkness; he who is in darkness but bound for light; he who is in light but bound for darkness; he who is in light and bound for light. And how, monks, is a person in darkness bound for darkness? In this case a certain person is born in a low family, the family of a scavenger or a hunter or a basket-weaver or wheelwright or sweeper, or in the family of some wretched man hard put to it to find a meal or earn a living, where food and clothes are hard to get. Moreover, he is ill-favoured, ugly, dwarfish, sickly, purblind, crooked, lame or paralysed, with never a bite or sup, without clothes, vehicle, without perfumes or flower-garlands, bed, dwelling or lights. He lives in the practice of evil with body, speech and thought; and so doing, when body breaks up, after death, he is reborn in the waste, the way of woe, the downfall, in hell. Thus, monks, is the person who is in darkness and bound for darkness. And how, monks, is a person in darkness but bound for light? In this case a certain person is born in a low family... without bed, dwelling or lights. He lives in the practice of good with body, speech and thought... and so doing, when body breaks up, after death he is reborn in the happy bourn, in the heaven-world. And how, monks, is a person in light but bound for darkness? In this case a certain person is born in a high family... And that man is well-built, comely and charming, possessed of supreme beauty of form. He is one able to get clothes, vehicle, perfumes and flower-garlands, bed, dwelling and lights. But he lives in the practice of evil with body, speech and thought. So doing, when body breaks up, after death he is reborn in the waste, the way of woe, the downfall, in hell. Thus, monks, is the person who is in light but bound for darkness. And how, monks, is a person who is in light and bound for light? In this case a person is born in a high family... able to get clothes... bed, dwelling and lights. He lives in the practice of good with body, speech and thought. So doing, when body breaks up after death, he is reborn in the happy bourn, in the heaven-world. Thus, monks, is one who is in light and bound for light. These, monks, are the four persons found existing in the world. ***** Nina. #63569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:19 am Subject: Rob's forum on jhana, 10 nilovg Dear friends: Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:35 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 61 nilovg Dear friends, Sati and panna arise because of different conditioning factors. One condition is having listened to the right teachings, and this may have been also in former lives, although we do not remember that now. Moreover, accumulated dana, sila and samatha are conditioning factors. They are beneficial, since they can help us to become less selfish. We have to consider the teachings and practise them in daily life. We cannot fathom the many kinds of conditions which have to work together so that panna can be developed. We were discussing about the step from theoretical knowledge to direct understanding which has to be taken. There is not just one step. It is a whole process of 'studying' characteristics of realities which appear now. We may still try to 'select' the object of awareness, we may select hardness or visible object. We may keep on thinking about realities, and then the reality arising at that moment is thinking. When there is, for example, thinking about hardness, thinking experiences a concept. The reality of hardness is not directly known at that moment. Do we know the reality of thinking? Is there thinking with lobha (attachment) or dosa (aversion)? We know so little about thinking, we do not even know whether there is thinking which is wholesome or thinking which is unwholesome. How much selfishness is there with our thinking? We already discussed many times what should be known by panna: any reality which appears through one of the six doors. But it may still be difficult to realize this in the practice. When, for example, hardness appears, what should panna know and how do we know that there is panna? When hardness presents itself, it is experienced by body-consciousness and then most likely by lobha-mula-citta, but we do not even notice this. When we realize, 'There is hardness', there may be subtle clinging. It should be stressed that panna should know hardness as only a kind of rupa; it should know this with a degree of detachment. When panna grows there will be more detachment. In order to know the falling away of what is only a nama or a rupa a higher degree of detachment is needed. It cannot be known in the beginning. ***** Nina #63571 From: Daniel Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:28 am Subject: Re: Existence sbhtkk Hi all, > Sarah: Why don't we consider what 'exists' now? > What would you say exists now? Are not 'pink elephands' and 'water on a > road on a hot day' merely ideas we have? > > Does seeing exist? > Does visible object exist? > Does thinking about them exist? > What about when we touch the computer. What exists? > Metta, Sarah ========= I will try to rephrase my question to make it more clear. What can we say about "that-which-is-not-cognized-by-any-of-the-six-types-of-consciousnesses"? We definitely can "talk about it". I just wrote an email "about it". But it might be that the term "about it" is misleading in such a case. When I am talking about the computer in front of me, the expression "about" is used in a different sense compared to when I am talking of a pink cat that is sitting on the computer in front of me. What do you think about "that-which-is-not-cognized-by-any-of-the-six-types-of-consciousness"? (By the way, I find that the idea of a "mysterious god" in abrahamic religions is somehow related to that... Do you?) Daniel #63572 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:30 pm Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > > In what way can anger (dosa) be controlled? If all the necessary > > conditions exist now for the arising of dosa, can it be prevented > > from arising? Once it has arisen, can it be prevented from > > performing its functions? Having performed its functions, can it be > > prevented from immediately falling away (so that we may (for > > example) examine it at our leisure)? > > Is it not possible to prevent the conditions necessary for the arising > of dosa from appearing? > Hi Swee Boon, In what way can the conditions for dosa be controlled? If all the necessary conditions exist now for the arising of the conditions for dosa can they be prevented from arising? Once they have arisen, can they be prevented from performing their functions (of conditioning dosa)? Having performed their functions, can they be prevented from immediately falling away? Your question was a good one, so I am sorry if my answer sounded frivolous. It was not meant that way - repetitious maybe, but certainly not frivolous: :-) Ken H #63573 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:14 pm Subject: Re: camps, loss and death buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > Hi James > > This was another really well-written, heartfelt post by you. I > disagree with some points in it (what else is new) but reading it > helped to condition samvega and appreciation for the Buddha's > teaching. Thanks. > > Phil Glad you appreciated it and it inspired such strong feelings! Feel free to tell my what you disagreed with if you like. Metta, James #63574 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >Please explain why you don't see this sutta as applying to all lay > >followers of the Buddha. I know that you don't see it as that way, > >so please explain why you don't see it as that way. > > > > > > The relevant part of the sutta reads as follows: > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay > followers, approached the Blessed One.... The Blessed One said to them: > "Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, almsfood, > lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of sickness. But you > should not remain satisfied merely with this. Rather, householders, you > should train yourselves thus: 'How can we enter and dwell from time to > time in the rapture of seclusion?' Thus should you train yourselves. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > As I read the sutta, it is directed to those to whom it is spoken, and > does not make a general statement about lay-followers and jhana. It is > the only instance of such advice given to lay-followers, as far as I know. > > There may have been a reason (unstated in the sutta) why the advice > given was given to this particular group of lay followers. > > (Another observation: it is not a direct exhortation to develop jhana, > but rather a suggestion to consider doing so.) > > What are your own thoughts? > > Jon > You should already know my thoughts. I find the sutta to be applicapable to all lay followers of the Buddha. Additionally, in the sutta, Sariputa reiterates what the Buddha suggests and tells the benefits of such a jhana practice. I also think that you are simply trying to look for loopholes out of this sutta but there really aren't any. Unless you can state SPECIFICALLY what was special or unique about those 500 householders, then what the Buddha taught to them is applicapable to all householders. Metta, James #63575 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Not sure where to go from here. Will wait to see if you care to continue > the thread. Nah, I don't really care to continue the thread. It has become too much a cat and mouse game. > > Jon > Metta, James #63576 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: too distracted scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks again! Me: "Yeah so the pleasure and pain are already just the show. Enjoying the band is not the result." S: "You got it!" I had a very clear Unthought about the Wheel of Becoming, gone almost gone before it was known then I felt the wind and looked and saw it was all result and "etc." and the immeasurable flow and then it was back to reading and going to get a coffee (and wanting more - alas - still a junkie.) With loving kindness, Scott. #63577 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nilovg Dear Jon, please, give me the location of the sutta, I want to look at the Thai Co., Nina. Op 21-sep-2006, om 13:31 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > The relevant part of the sutta reads as follows: > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay > followers, approached the Blessed One.... #63578 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Jon & James) As you're going away soon, you may like it quickly. It's AN, 5s, 176 (vol 3, p152 in PTS copy) In the PTS transl, it's called 'Zest' (Piiti). It'll be interesting to read your notes from the commentary. Metta, Sarah --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > please, give me the location of the sutta, I want to look at the Thai > Co., > Nina. > Op 21-sep-2006, om 13:31 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > The relevant part of the sutta reads as follows: > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay > > followers, approached the Blessed One.... > #63579 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:24 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 527- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (x) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Questions i Why are pliancy of cetasikas and of citta the opponents of wrong view and conceit? ii Why is it said that there is freedom from illness when there is proficiency of cetasikas and of citta? iii Why is diffidence, lack of faith (saddhå), the cause of mental illness? iv Why has the sotåpanna a higher degree of proficiency in kusala than the non-ariyan? v Why does uprightness develop to the extent that right understanding of realities develops? vi Why is the ariyan called a person who walks straight? vii Which factor conditions most of all the growth of all wholesome qualities? ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas finished! Metta, Sarah ====== #63580 From: "Leo" Date: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:37 pm Subject: Re: Robes of Bhikkhu leoaive Hi But if I am a monk, walking at the beach side and see a nice lady with sexy dress, I still have perception of it. One one side I renounced, but on other side it is still fabrication, where mind participate in perception and discrimination of it. Leo #63581 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi Nina Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Dear Jon, >please, give me the location of the sutta, I want to look at the Thai >Co., >Nina. > > Thanks. I'd be interested to know what you find. The refernce is AN V, 176, or A. iii. 206-7. Jon >Op 21-sep-2006, om 13:31 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > >>The relevant part of the sutta reads as follows: >> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay >>followers, approached the Blessed One.... >> >> #63582 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > > Not sure where to go from here. Will wait to see if you care to > continue > > the thread. > > Nah, I don't really care to continue the thread. It has become too > much a cat and mouse game. > > > > > Jon > > > > Metta, > James > Oh, on second thought, I guess I could give it one more go. Here is some information: The area of practice must be quiet and well-lit. One must make sure the practice area is also clean and tidy. The background against which the kasina device is placed must not be cluttered or show visually-distracting features. One's sitting posture must be comfortable (any arrangement of the legs/arms will do as long as the back is self-supported and straight). The image should be imprinted on a suitable surface such as a plate. Usually a coloured or white circle with a black border centred on a square white surface will do (squares, triangles or other regular polygons could be used as suitable images, as well). http://www.birken.ca/texts/Kasina_final.html Metta, James #63583 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The coin merchant simile (Sarah) sarahprocter... Hi Phil,(& Howard) --- Phil wrote: > I'd like to launch a discussion with you about the coin merchant > simile. I heard an interesting talk about it yesterday. > > Sanna is the child that picks up the coin but doesn't know what it is. > > Citta is a village who knows it's a coin but doesn't know the value > of it. > > Panna knows the value of it, panna is the coin merchant. > > Is that right? It sounds the other way around. ... S: Yes, you got it right. See the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 3-5) ... >I would have thought > that citta is bare cognizing and sanna is what would recognize the > coin. .... S: I know it's a bit confusing. I think of sanna as just marking and then citta as experiencing everything. But, of course, sanna arises with every single citta and marks everything too. .... > I thought it was interesting that Acharn Sujin discouraged the people > in the talk from paying *too* much attention to this simile - it can > make us overconfident about what we understand about citta, sanna and > panna - I think that was her point, which was well taken. .... S: Yes, I've heard her say two or three times that she doesn't find it very helpful for the reason above - that citta and sanna mark every object and so we get the child and villager mixed up as you suggested too. Howard also said recently he didn't find it so helpful. K.Sujin stresses that it's more important to understand about the nature of citta and sanna and their particular functions.. .... > > BTW, in the talk, the etymological (does that mean words or insects) ... S: You're OK - words:-) ... > relation of panna, sanna and one more cetasika was points out, all > ending with that "nya" - what was the third? ... S: It would be vinnana (vi~n~naa.na). Also ~naa.na is another one. I believe the root ~naa refers to knowing. They all 'know' the object in their own ways. (Again, Howard likes to stress 'knowing' as a function of citta too). Without panna, no 'penetration' or insight into the object like the coin merchant, of course. .... > Maybe in this thread we can discuss the relationship between sanna > and panna and....that third on. .... S: Fire ahead! Without sanna marking what we see, hear, consider and reflect on, there could be no development of panna. Good to remember that there are different kinds and degrees of panna. Panna in the development of samatha and panna in the development of satipatthana etc. I won't say more now as you may chop it off without reading if it's any longer:-). Look forward to any more of your comments as usual. Metta, Sarah ====== #63584 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 5. sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, --- matheesha wrote: > M: There is control in the conventional sense but not in the absolute > sense. > > Agree or disagree? :) .... S: Let's be sure we're using the same language. Before I answer, pls tell me what exact you mean by 'control in the conventional sense'. Certainly agree that no control in the absolute sense, so we can drop that one:) Metta, Sarah ========= #63585 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:09 am Subject: Re: Intellectual and Emotional pgradinarov Dear Matheesha, Thank you very much for deepening the subject! > M: I was thinking of nibbida and the likes of bhayatupatthana when I > was refering to emotions here Isn't nibbida lack of desire to have an object rather than negative emotion of the sort of disgust? The arahant turns away from the objects not because he is disgusted with them but because he is no more attracted by them. Disgust and revulsion are negative emotions while niddida is lack of emotions which are out of place (nih vindati) when talking about arahant, because of which it is listed in one line with viraaga and vimutti. Kindest regards, Plamen Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3) #63586 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How could you know? sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Plamen), --- upasaka@... wrote: > pgradinarov@... writes: > > > Dear Howard, > > > > Probably this will help differentiate between external and internal: > > > > Dhatu-vibhanga Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html > > > > Kindest regards, > > > > Plamen > > > ====================== > This is all conventional explication, Plamen. It is not what I am > > after on this topic. But I thank you for sending the reference! :-) .... S: Just to add a little more, from the reference: "And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property? Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind." .... S: I understand your point, Howard, that when hardness or softness are experienced, it is simply the characteristic of pathavi dhatu (earth element) that is experienced. As it says here, "Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property". When there's awareness, it doesn't distinguish between internal and external, it is just aware of that characteristic. Even so, although the sutta is using conventional language, it's referring to the earth element (and all the other elements too in the text) that arise both within our so-called bodies and outside these so-called bodies. There can be touching of the hardness of the so-called computer and touching of the hardness of the so-called arm. These hardness elements which are experienced are conditioned by different causes and although they are both rupa khandha, they are not the same. There have been other helpful suttas quoted and comments made. The use of internal and external in the texts have several different meanings depending on context, of course. Sometimes the terms refer to the inner and outer (or internal and external) ayatanas which is another sense. In suttas like the Satipatthana Sutta, reference is made to being aware of internal and external objects including external cittas and so on. People read this as suggesting they should be aware of others' minds and mental states. Of course, this is not the meaning. It refers (as I think you'll agree) to the the cittas and mental states appearing now whilst thinking of others or whilst being affected by others. As you stress, the path always comes down to understanding and being aware of what directly appears as indicated in the Bahiya Sutta. But this doesn't mean that other rupas which are not experienced and not known do not arise and fall away all the time. Otherwise the body could not function and there'd be nothing to be taken for the tree outside your window:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #63587 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Spelling Correction sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Your note was the first I knew of any coup. --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, all - > > I just wrote "Hi to all Thai embers of DSG". I missed the first > 'm' of > 'members'! ;-) ... S: Fortunately all is peaceful and none of the Thai members have become embers from it :-). Still, it's just a matter of time before we all turn into embers... Metta, Sarah p.s I appreciate your concern for everyone. ======= #63588 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Existence sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Daniel), --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah (and Daniel) - > > In a message dated 9/19/06 6:50:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: <..> > > What about when we touch the computer. What exists? > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ahhh! Would the answer be be what is perceived? ;-) The rupa (of > hardness) that is known by the nama of vi~n~nana? [And also the knowing > of it is > known, but not then as an object.] > ==================== .... S: What can be perceived at the moment of touch can only be what is experienced by the citta through the body-sense. So yes, the rupa of hardness is experienced. Also, the rupa of temperature may be experienced (different moments). When we're typing, the rupa of motion (vayo dhatu) may also be experienced. The body-sense experiencing of these rupas may or may not be experienced or known following the experience of the rupas. Of course, it is quite one thing for these dhammas to be experienced as they are all day long and another thing for awareness to be aware of them when they are experienced. Getting the theory straight, is important for this. Thanks, Howard.....I know we agree here. Metta, Sarah ======= #63589 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Existence sarahprocter... Hi Daniel, --- Daniel wrote: > > What about when we touch the computer. What exists? > > Metta, > Sarah > > ========= > > I will try to rephrase my question to make it more clear. > > > > What can we say > about > "that-which-is-not-cognized-by-any-of-the-six-types-of-consciousnesses"? .... S: There may be some types of consciousness which themselves are never cognized perhaps. But in general, I would say that that which is not cognized as you write above does not exist. In another sense, because there is only ever the present consciousness cognizing its present object, nothing else exists. Just one world at a time. What do you think? .... > We definitely can > "talk about > it". I just wrote an email "about it". But it might be that the term > "about it" > is misleading in such a case. When I am talking about the computer in > front of > me, the expression "about" is used in a different sense compared to when > I am > talking of a pink cat that is sitting on the computer in front of me. ... S: And yet, both the computer and the pink cat are concepts, not realities. They are different kinds of concepts or ideas, one conventionally true and one conventionally imaginary, but still they are both concepts, different from the hardness directly experienced. .... What > do you > think about > "that-which-is-not-cognized-by-any-of-the-six-types-of-consciousness"? .... S: Something imaginary, but yet even this imaginary object is thought about. .... > > (By the way, I > find that > the idea of a "mysterious god" in abrahamic religions is somehow related > to > that... Do you?) .... S: Another imaginary object thought about at this moment. The thinking is real or 'exists' while the imaginary object is a fantasy, wouldn't you say? Metta, Sarah ======= #63590 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Ken: Touching Base and Clarifying My Position sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >Howard: > > > Everything that people (conventionally) do involves a lot of > > >ignorance. We are beset by craving, aversion, and ignorance, most > > >especially by a sense > > >of self in "the person" and in conventional and paramatthic > phenomena, > > >and th > > >at remains so until final awakening. So what? > > ... > > S: So, isn't it better to know? > > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > And I DO know it. What serious Buddhist does not? > ----------------------------------------- ... S: Whether serious or not, the knowing has to develop on and on and on. Never enough as you DO know:-). .... <..> > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is good to know that all conditions are, themselves, > conditioned. > It is best to know this by following the Buddha's training, to cultivate > the > mind so that the knowing can be direct and real and not just a matter of > book > learning. > -------------------------------------------- .... S: AGREED!! Metta, Sarah ======== #63591 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna sarahprocter... Hi James (Jon & Phil), --- buddhatrue wrote: >>What is the basis for your view that the development of > jhana > > begins with the practice of sitting cross-legged etc? > > Oh, I don't know Jon, I think I read it on the back of a cereal box – > "Jhana Puffs, Blissfully Delicious!!" ;-)) ... S: There was an audible laugh as I LOL-ed on that one. 'Snap, Crackle, Pop' or rather 'Smile, Chuckle, Pop' perhaps? I haven't read cereal boxes since I was a child. Time to start again? Metta, Sarah ======== #63592 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ditthi (Jon) jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: > Hidden in the way lobha is hidden, because it doesn't appear as >the enemy in the way dosa does? > Yes, all forms of lobha (of which wrong view is one) tend to be welcomed because they are accompanied by either pleasant or neutral feeling, never by unpleasant feeling. However, wrong view is particularly pernicious because by definition it involves the idea that it is right (otherwise it wouldn't be a *view*). > This is the crux of my confusion. Is wrong view about failing to >see realities, or is it thinking that there is no result of deeds >etc, those big "wrong views." > Wrong view is the held belief that things are other than they truly are. So the (mere) failure to see things as they truly are is not wrong view. Even taking things to be a certain way that they are not is not necessarily wrong view, i.e., if it is a matter of (mere) perception rather than of a held belief. >When I see a person and think the >person is beautiful and lasting and a source of happiness, is there >wrong view? > Not necessarily, for the reason just given. >What is the connection between wrong view and sanna >vipalassa? (Which if I recall means seeing the impermanent as >permanent, the foul as beautiful, the suffering as happiness and one >more I forget.) > > Of the sanna vipallassas, only those that perceive the impermanent as permanent and the not-self as self are eradicated at stream-entry (along with wrong view). Those that perceive the perceive the impure as pure and the painful as pleasant remain and are not eradicated until later stages. > Today I looked up Right View in MN 117 There is "right view that >is affected by the taints, partkaing of merit, ripening in >acquisitions" -this seems to deal with those big "wrong views" there >is fruit and result of good and bad actions etc. And then there >is "right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of >the path?" This is referring to the "faculty of wisdom", to the >investigation-of-states enlightenment factor (vimsama? panna? are >they the same?) > > Maybe these two branches or levels or varieties of right view is >what is confusing for me. > > Yes, it is confusing. There are levels of right view (panna). Only panna of the level of insight is a factor of the path. So the panna that, for example, correctly understands an aspect of the teachings at a conceptual level is still a condition for continued existence in samsara. > No hurry to get back to me. I'll be coming by about once a week. > > Fine. Once a week is a fast pace for me ;-)) Jon #63593 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:05 am Subject: where are the independent rupas. In faith. nilovg Hi Matheesha, ----------- M: There seem to be two methods here. One is the KS method of knowing a lot of dhamma to begin with and understanding with only a flash of mindfulness (direct experiencing). Then there is the other method of knowing only a little but having the dhammas as the teacher and understanding through prolonged mindfulness from the dhammas themselves. -------- N: Methods? I hesitate to use this word. Knowing a lot of dhamma? As I see it: it is not in the quantity. 'Only a flash of mindfulness': true it does not last, but there has to be mindfulness over and over again so that pa~n~naa can develop, that is, understanding of the characteristic that is object of mindfulness. They arise together. The dhammas that appear are teacher, that is an interesting remark. They teach me something, namely that it is so inpredictable what dhammas appear. Prolonged mindfulness: but it is different from concentration. It is not like fixing attention for a long time on one dhamma, but perhaps you do not mean this. --------- M: Your method, which is valid option, requires a lot of precision and pre-peration in thinking, I would think, to minimise any wrong view. In view of that I think it might be preferable to think of there being only 'understanding' as an action, rather than in the sense of a noun (as in understanding/panna that experiences realities) because for someone who hasnt erradicated self view, it can hide in that paramatta dhamma. The suttas I noticed never use the word panna in that way. ------ N: You see the danger of taking pa~n~naa for self when people say: pa~n~naa understands. There is always this danger, we may also take sati for self, although we say: they are non-self. When one has intellectual understanding that pa~n~naa and sati cannot be manipulated, that we cannot make them arise, whatever we do, it can help. Then in being aware there can be a decrease of wrong view. In the suttas it is said, for example, : 'And having seen this thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom...' (for example, M. II, no 54, Discourse to Potaliya). ------- M:It is always talked of in an impersonal manner as a category or a faculty. It wouldnt say 'panna understands' but rather say 'understanding belongs in the category of panna' or say 'there is understanding/knowing'. ------ N: There are many ways of saying. As in the sutta: having seen, a person has seen, and this is conventional language, but we know what is meant. In the Vis. XIV, 143, non-delusion has as function to illuminate the objective field, like a lamp. -------- (snipped) M: :), There is this knowledge + mindfulness = insight. Now having quite a bit of knowledge, maybe to balance the equation, it is best to look at ways of increasing the chances of mindfulness arising. ------- N: It depends on the citta that thinks in that way. It could be lobha. Such danger can be counteracted if one is interested in more understanding of dhammas that arise because of their own conditions. Nobody can make them arise, and it is always a surprise what dhamma arises at a particular moment. This teaches me the truth of anattaa. I can only speak for myself. Suppose, I would think of means to have more mindfulness, that would be to me that I am the possessor of mindfulness. And what would I do? Mindfulness of what? Seeing, anger or attachment arise already, but how could I direct mindfulness deliberately to these dhammas. They have already fallen away before one can do anything. There is no time. I cannot hold them to be objects of mindfulness. Nina. #63594 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:06 am Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self nidive Hi Ken H, > In what way can the conditions for dosa be controlled? If all the > necessary conditions exist now for the arising of the conditions for > dosa can they be prevented from arising? Once they have arisen, can > they be prevented from performing their functions (of conditioning > dosa)? Having performed their functions, can they be prevented from > immediately falling away? Is it not possible to prevent the conditions necessary for the arising of conditions necessary for the arising of dosa from appearing? By the way, can conditions be said to "fall away"? Regards, Swee Boon #63595 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question for Plamen on an Article of His jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >>This is a question that can be discussed in the context of rupas that >>are experienced. We do not have to postulate unknown/unexperienced >>rupas to consider what the answer to that question might be. A rupa can >>be the object of experience and still be 'independent' of that >>consciousness in its arising (especially if its arising preceded that of >>the consciousness) or even in its presence as object. >> >> > >---------------------------------------------- >Howard: > 1) Independent in what sense? Not being the object of awareness? > > We are talking now only about rupas that are experienced, i.e., that are in fact the object of consciousness. The fact that a rupa is the object of consciousness does not make the rupa dependent on that consciousness for its (the rupa's) arising. It may or may not have an 'existence' independent of its status as an object of the consciousness. That is actually the whole point under discussion. > 2) How would one know that a rupa arose prior to the consciousness of >it? How would that be more than plausible speculation? > > We are in a realm here that is beyond our imagination. But as far as actually experienced rupas are concerned, there is no question of the matter being 'in principle unknowable'. > The question is HOW would such a rupa be known (KNOWN!) to have >existed prior to an awareness of it? IF apples were oranges, then apple juice would >be orange juice. Saying "if" here establishes nothing. The whole point is how >an "if" is to be determined. > > As Mateesha has said, we don't really have to speculate too much on the mechanism by which the conditions for the arising of an actually experienced rupa can be known by someone like the Buddha. But it is certainly not a matter of this being 'by definition not knowable'. Jon #63596 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:01 am Subject: Re: Robes of Bhikkhu nidive Hi Leo, > But if I am a monk, walking at the beach side and see a nice lady > with sexy dress, I still have perception of it. One one side I > renounced, but on other side it is still fabrication, where mind > participate in perception and discrimination of it. Regarding sensuality, I am not beyond sensuality and it would be inappropriate of me to tell you anything regarding the abandoning of sensuality. If one day I attain the path of never return, maybe I can tell you more. There is a wealth of Dhamma suttas at www.accesstoinsight.org where you can study them at your own pace. But first and foremost, eradicate self-identification views. Regards, Swee Boon #63597 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The coin merchant simile (Sarah) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Phil) - In a message dated 9/22/06 5:02:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Phil,(& Howard) > > --- Phil wrote: > > > I'd like to launch a discussion with you about the coin merchant > >simile. I heard an interesting talk about it yesterday. > > > > Sanna is the child that picks up the coin but doesn't know what it is. > > > > Citta is a village who knows it's a coin but doesn't know the value > >of it. > > > > Panna knows the value of it, panna is the coin merchant. > > > > Is that right? It sounds the other way around. > ... > S: Yes, you got it right. See the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 3-5) -------------------------------------------------- Howard: With Phil, I also have thought that seems backwards: Citta should be mere awareness of object, sa~n~na should be recognition of it. ---------------------------------------------------- > ... > >I would have thought > >that citta is bare cognizing and sanna is what would recognize the > >coin. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly! -------------------------------------------------- > .... > S: I know it's a bit confusing. I think of sanna as just marking and then > citta as experiencing everything. But, of course, sanna arises with every > single citta and marks everything too. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understood sa~n~na as a two-part operation: 1) initial marking that enables future recognition, and 2) subsequent recognition. --------------------------------------------------- > .... > > I thought it was interesting that Acharn Sujin discouraged the people > >in the talk from paying *too* much attention to this simile - it can > >make us overconfident about what we understand about citta, sanna and > >panna - I think that was her point, which was well taken. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: A while back I chose to ignore the simile, as it made no sense to me. --------------------------------------------------- > .... > S: Yes, I've heard her say two or three times that she doesn't find it > very helpful for the reason above - that citta and sanna mark every object > and so we get the child and villager mixed up as you suggested too. Howard > also said recently he didn't find it so helpful. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't recall having said that, but that is indeed my evaluation. ---------------------------------------------- K.Sujin stresses that> > it's more important to understand about the nature of citta and sanna and > their particular functions.. > .... > > > > BTW, in the talk, the etymological (does that mean words or insects) > ... > S: You're OK - words:-) > ... > >relation of panna, sanna and one more cetasika was points out, all > >ending with that "nya" - what was the third? > ... > S: It would be vinnana (vi~n~naa.na). Also ~naa.na is another one. > I believe the root ~naa refers to knowing. They all 'know' the object in > their own ways. (Again, Howard likes to stress 'knowing' as a function of > citta too). Without panna, no 'penetration' or insight into the object > like the coin merchant, of course. > .... > > Maybe in this thread we can discuss the relationship between sanna > >and panna and....that third on. > .... > S: Fire ahead! Without sanna marking what we see, hear, consider and > reflect on, there could be no development of panna. Good to remember that > there are different kinds and degrees of panna. Panna in the development > of samatha and panna in the development of satipatthana etc. > > I won't say more now as you may chop it off without reading if it's any > longer:-). > > Look forward to any more of your comments as usual. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================== With metta, Howard #63598 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:47 am Subject: Rob's forum on jhana, 11. nilovg Dear friends, Wolfgang: I want to add that for a monk it is indeed a defeating Sila, to announce the attainment of Jhana, but only if he consciously lied. For example, it is not a breaking of the defeating rules - if it is true, or if the monk simple has been mistaken! -------- Robert: Dear Wolfgang, Lots of point in your post! I just reply to the above point now. Yes, this is correct. It should also be noted that: http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoins...mc1/ch08-1.html QUOTE Should any bhikkhu report (his own) factual superior human state to an unordained person, it is to be confessed. The factors for the full offense here are three: 1) Object: an unordained person, i.e., anyone -- human or not -- who is not a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni. 2) Effort: One reports one's actual attainment of a superior human state[these states include jhana and higher] to such a person. 3) Result: The person immediately understands. Only two of these factors -- effort and result -- require explanation. Effort. The meaning of superior human state is discussed at length under Parajika 4. In brief, it covers (a) jhana, the cognitive powers that can arise as its result, and © the transcendent states. Factual is not explained in the texts, but probably means factual from the bhikkhu's own point of view. In other words, whether or not he has actually attained a superior human state, if he thinks he has and reports it to an unordained person, he commits an offense all the same. If he actually has attained such a state, e.g., jhana, but thinks he hasn't, and yet claims that he has -- in other words, he is telling what he thinks to be a lie -- he incurs a parajika. To report, says the Vibhanga, means to speak directly of one's own attainments. To speak indirectly of one's own attainments -- e.g., "The bhikkhu who lives in this dwelling enters jhana at will" -- entails a dukkata. According to the Commentary, gestures fall under this rule as well. Thus, if a lay person asks a bhikkhu who has attained Stream-entry if he has reached any of the noble attainments, and the bhikkhu nods, his nod would fulfill the factor of effort here. Result. As noted above, the bhikkhu incurs the full penalty only if his listener immediately understands what he has said. If the listener does not understand, the bhikkhu incurs a dukkata regardless of whether he spoke directly or indirectly of his attainments. Whether or not the person addressed believes what is said, is of no account in determining the offense. Non-offenses. The Vibhanga states that to report one's own superior human attainments to another bhikkhu or to a bhikkhuni carries no penalty. Summary: To tell an unordained person of one's actual superior human attainments is a pacittiya offense. Robert (end quote) ****** Nina. #63599 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:53 am Subject: With Appreciation/Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - You are always kindly and friendly, but I have noticed an increased expression of warmth in your recent posts to me and in posts mentioning me, and I want you to know that I have not been unaware of this and that I much appreciate it! :-) With metta, Howard