#63600 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:20 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe 81 nilovg Dear friends, The kusala kamma producing a patisandhi-citta which is sahetuka vipåka (with beautiful roots) is of a higher degree than the kusala kamma producing an ahetuka paìisandhi-citta. Kåmåvacara kusala kammas (kusala kammas of the ``sense sphere'') can produce eight different types of sahetuka vipåkacittas which can perform the function of patisandhi. Which type of vipåkacitta performs this function in the case of a particular being depends on the kusala kamma which produces it. People are born with different characters and with different capacities; they are born with different degrees of wisdom or without wisdom. The patisandhi-cittas of people are different. When the patisandhi-citta is sahetuka, it is always accompanied by alobha (non- attachment or generosity) and adosa (non-aversion or kindness), but not always by wisdom. It can be accompanied by wisdom or it can be without wisdom, depending on the kamma which produces it. When the patisandhi-citta is accompanied by wisdom, one is born with three sobhana hetus (beautiful roots): alobha, adosa and paññå. Someone who is born with wisdom is more inclined to develop wisdom in the course of his life than someone who is born without wisdom. Those who are born with a patisandhi-citta accompanied by wisdom can attain enlightenment if they cultivate the eightfold Path. If one is born without wisdom one can still develop right understanding, but in that life one cannot attain enlightenment. Thus we see that everything in our life depends on conditions. Apart from the difference in the number of roots (two hetus or three hetus) which accompany the sahetuka patisandhi-citta there are other differences. Kusala kamma which produces the patisandhi-citta can be kamma performed by kusala citta with somanassa, pleasant feeling, or with upekkhå, indifferent feeling; by kusala citta which is ``unprompted'' (not induced, asankhårika) or by kusala citta which is ``prompted'' (induced, sasankhårika). Several factors determine the nature of kusala kamma which produces its result accordingly. ***** NIna. #63601 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:37 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 62 nilovg Dear friends, 'Without studying realities which appear panna cannot grow', Khun Sujin so often repeated. It is not one step from theoretical understanding to clear understanding, it is a long process of stumbling and falling, then realizing that you are wrong and beginning again. It is important not to forget that sati is not self and that panna is not self. That means, when it is the right time for sati it arises already, it is aware already of hardness, visible object or whatever other object it may be. These moments are again conditions for the growing of panna which is not self, which arises when there are the right conditions for it. We may be able to admit the truth that there is not a self who sees, hears or thinks. But can we also realize that there is not a self who is aware? This may be hard, if we are honest, we like to do many things to arouse sati, to create conditions, and we cling to an idea of 'my sati'. Should we then be passive, just lazy, since it is no use to try? This is a question which is often asked. Can there be study with awareness of the present moment also while we ask such a question? Then we would know more about our different cittas. This is the meaning of 'study': making an effort to understand what appears now, but at the same time realizing that there is no self who can make an effort. When we see the urgency of eradicating clinging to the self, it is a condition not to waste our life away with akusala. There will be many opportunities for different kinds of kusala. When there is an opportunity for reading the teachings we will use it, tomorrow there may not be time, better do it today. Or, if there is no opportunity for reading, there are so many living reminders around us of the truth of Dhamma. Our own defilements, decay, sickness and death. The world of the sixth doorways. We may have discussed many times about visible object, which is not a person or thing. We may be surrounded by what we believe are people, but sometimes there may be a short moment of realizing that what appears through the eyes is not a person, just colour or visible object. ***** Nina #63602 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:44 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 63 nilovg Dear friends, In this context I like to quote from your (Susie's) letter: 'Dhamma is completely about life. It is so simple that we all miss it all the time. Seeing now. Too easy. And because there is no great verbalisation it doesn't fit into our definition of something to be understood. I was drawn to the Dhamma because it was so straight forward, no nonsense. It really makes sense.' Yes, the Buddha spoke about the six doors and the objects to be experienced through the six doors. No long theoretical treatises, because he taught about realities which can be directly experienced. How do you like the following quotation about feeling: 'Feeling is that which feels'. It feels. That is all. Hard to detach from it, it is so much 'my feeling'. We read in the 'Middle Length Sayings' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta) that Kotthita asked Sariputta: 'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing wise attention into existence.' Listening to the right Dhamma and wise attention, that is, wisely considering the Dhamma we have heard. Realities have to be 'studied' so that panna can grow. Panna is for 'getting rid of', getting rid of wrong view and the other defilements. The other day the Burmese Ambassador said to me, while we were standing at a cocktail party: 'If you don't try, you will not reach nibbana.' Now, such an advice one may take in the wrong way or in the right way. There may be clinging to an idea of: 'I shall reach nibbana', and an idea of self who tries. No matter how hard one tries, there may not be conditions for attaining nibbana. It is not very fruitful to think too much of nibbana, also the Bodhisatta had to develop wisdom for innumerable lives before he became the Buddha. However, we can take such an advice also in the right way. Nibbana is the reality which extinguishes defilements and we should not forget that it is urgent to develop the way which eventually leads to it. ****** Nina #63603 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:15 pm Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Is it not possible to prevent the conditions necessary for the arising > of conditions necessary for the arising of dosa from appearing? > > By the way, can conditions be said to "fall away"? > Hi Swee Boon, Thanks for another good question. As I see it, conditions are ultimately dhammas. The conditions for the dhammas of the present five khandhas were contained in the dhammas of the immediately preceding five khandhas, and the conditions for next five khandhas to come are all contained in the dhammas that are present now. It is true that a kamma (cetana cetasika), for example, that arose in the long distant past can condition the next vipaka citta, but that kamma is not sitting out in space somewhere waiting for its chance. It fell away permanently as soon as it arose. However, its conditioning influence has been bound up in the dhammas of every moment that followed it. So, coming back to our original question: where, in all of this, is there any control over the arising/non-arising, of dosa? Ken H #63604 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions at the Foundation contd (a) kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah and RobK, > S: Before we get to BB's translation note, I believe the reference is to > the path of the bodhisatta. Once the supramundane purification of > knowledge and vision is attained, of course we're no longer talking about > the bodhisatta, but about the Buddha. As for when the insights leading up > to this(vipassana)were developed, where in the text does it say that these > were in previous lives as opposed to just before his enlightenment in his > last life? Kel: Simply look at the beginning of the text: We now undertake a detailed explanation of the paramis for clansmen following the suttas who are zealously engaged in the practice of the vehicle to great enlightenment (mahabodhiyana), in order to improve their skilfulness in accumulating the requisites for enlightenment. Kel: This text isn't for someone in their last life to become a Buddha. Here's another portion that points to the audience. If the bodhisattva has attained to the direct knowledges, he may inspire a sense of spiritual urgency (samvega) in the negligent by showing them the fate of those in hell, etc., as is fit. Thereby he establishes the faithless (immoral, ignorant, stingy, and dull- witted) in faith (virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom). He makes them enter the Buddha's Dispensation and brings to maturity those already endowed with these qualities. In this way, through his virtuous conduct, the Great Man's immeasurable flood of merit and goodness ascends to ever increasing heights. Kel: This refers to a bodhisattva that is not in a dispensation of his own. There are more quotes in that article that goes to this point: Through wisdom he understands the suffering of others, through compassion he strives to alleviate their suffering Through wisdom he becomes disenchanted with suffering, through compassion he accepts suffering. Through wisdom he aspires for nibbana, through compassion he remains in the round of existence. Through compassion he enters samsara, through wisdom he does not delight in it. Through wisdom he destroys all attachments, but because his wisdom is accompanied by compassion he never desists from activity that benefits others. Through compassion he shakes with sympathy for all, but because his compassion is accompanied by wisdom his mind is unattached. Through wisdom he is free from "I-making" and "mine-making," through compassion he is free from lethargy and depression. > > 25. Purification by knowledge and vision is the supramundane wisdom > > of the four noble paths. Because this purification issues in the > > realization of nibbana, the bodhisattva-aspirant must stop short of > > this attainment so that his realization of nibbana will coincide > > with his perfect enlightenment. > ... > S: This is a footnote of B.Bodhi's I believe. I think it is a popular > understanding but misleading. Kel: Where's you source to back this statement? Especially given the fact I've pasted the same position of three Abhidhamma scholars from Burma. For example, U Silananda's statement was similar to Ledi sayadaw but clarified it further in second paragraph (#60183). I understand commentaries to use cula-sotapanna with a bit of poetic license in the praise heaped on them. Technical understanding is clear and consistent in Burma as far as I understand. How can you dismiss it as just BB's footnote that leads to some misunderstanding? The way I see it Sarah, as stated in your post #63255, you don't have any proof. You just have general reading of Visuddhimagga descriptions. I'm confident that Abhidhamma teachers from Burma understanding of this issue is more solid. My only sobering thought from this discussion is how small difference in understanding and accepting the same words/texts can lead to a big fundamental difference. I've pretty much contributed to this as I can and we have reached a stalemate. - Kel #63605 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:31 pm Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self nidive Hi Ken H, > Thanks for another good question. As I see it, conditions are > ultimately dhammas. The conditions for the dhammas of the present > five khandhas were contained in the dhammas of the immediately > preceding five khandhas, and the conditions for next five khandhas > to come are all contained in the dhammas that are present now. It > is true that a kamma (cetana cetasika), for example, that arose in > the long distant past can condition the next vipaka citta, but that > kamma is not sitting out in space somewhere waiting for its chance. > It fell away permanently as soon as it arose. However, its > conditioning influence has been bound up in the dhammas of every > moment that followed it. In that case, am I right to say that whatever mental feelings of pleasure that I experience now is all conditioned by the past? Am I right to say that whatever mental feelings of pain that I experience now is all conditioned by the past? Am I right to say that whatever mental feelings of neither-pleasure- nor-pain that I experience now is all conditioned by the past? > So, coming back to our original question: where, in all of this, is > there any control over the arising/non-arising, of dosa? In that case, I agree with you that there is no control over the arising and non-arising of dosa. Why is that so? Because whatever mental feelings of pain that I experience now is all conditioned by the past. Regards, Swee Boon #63606 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The coin merchant simile (Sarah) lbidd2 Hi Phil and Sarah, I think consciousness in this simile refers to yoniso manasikaara (wise attention). When combined with sati it is mindfulness. Otherwise it is just keeping your eye on the ball. Still very useful and relatively rare. You might call it presence or wakefulness. It is addressing reality rather than story or speculation, but there isn't understanding (pa~n~naa) yet. Larry #63607 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:57 pm Subject: The Straight View !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the Starting Point of Advantageous States? Venerable Bahiya once approached the Blessed Buddha and asked: Sir, Please teach me the Dhamma in brief, so that I can withdraw into retreat and dwell secluded, keen, alert and resolute Well then, Bahiya, purify the very starting point of advantageous states. And what is the starting point of advantageous states? Morality that is well purified and a view that is made straight #... Then, Bahiya, when your Morality is well purified and your view is straight, based upon Morality, established upon Morality, you should develop these Four Foundations of Awareness. What four? Here, Bahiya, live reflecting on: 1: The Body merely as a transient & compounded Form.. 2: Feelings just as vanishing Reactions to sense-contact.. 3: Mind only as a group of habitual & temporary Moods.. 4: Phenomena simply as discrete momentary Mental States.. Thereby removing desire jealousy, envy & discontent rooted in this world.. When, Bahiya, based upon Morality, established upon Morality, you develop these Four Foundations of Awareness in such a way, then both night & day, you will grow in all advantageous states, and not decline into degradation! Then the Venerable Bahiya, delighted, enjoying and rejoicing in what the Blessed Buddha had explained, rose from his seat, and, after kneeling for the Blessed One, keeping him on his right, he left. Then dwelling all alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute, the Venerable Bahiya, realizing it by direct experience, in this very life entered that incomparable goal of the Noble life for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from this household life into homelessness. He directly knew: Destroyed is rebirth, the Noble life is completed, done is what had to be done, there is no more coming into any state of being. And the Venerable Bahiya became another one of the perfected and awakened Arahats. Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 165-6] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 47 Bahiya... Details On Foundations of Awareness (Sati): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Causes_of_sati.htm Comment #: Efficacy of Kamma! The Straight View is understanding that everyone is responsible for their own actions & that all beings experience the delayed resulting effects - good as bad - not only in this life, but in many future lives! Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63608 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 5. matheesha333 Hi Sarah, > Before I answer, pls tell me what exact you mean by 'control in the > conventional sense'. > M: If you feel like having a cup of tea you are capable of making one. You have control over the ability to do that. Contrast that with.. You cannot telepathically move an object beyond your reach, with your mind. You do not have control over that. with metta Matheesha #63609 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:56 pm Subject: Re: Intellectual and Emotional matheesha333 Hi Plamen, > > M: I was thinking of nibbida and the likes of bhayatupatthana when I > > was refering to emotions here > >P: Isn't nibbida lack of desire to have an object rather than negative > emotion of the sort of disgust? The arahant turns away from the > objects not because he is disgusted with them but because he is no > more attracted by them. Disgust and revulsion are negative emotions > while niddida is lack of emotions which are out of place (nih vindati) > when talking about arahant, because of which it is listed in one line > with viraaga and vimutti. M: Nibbida is 'turning away in disgust', more strongly 'revulsion'. It would arise first, in someone training to become a sotapanna who has all his defilements intact. Upon seeing arising and passing away, realising it's unsatisfactory nature, he would turn away from it in disgust. It is after nibbida that 'the path is born'. No doubt at higher stages of the path, the emotional reaction would be less and something like 'a movement towards detachment' would be more appropriate. It seems to arise, as far as I have found in the suttass, as part of the series of mental mechanisms which give rise to a magga-phala experience, rather than something which is generally present afterwards. Quite apart from that, an arahath would not have coarse emotions, but would he not have subtle blissful ones I wonder (such as in the sutta about the moonlit Gosinga forest)? with metta Matheesha #63610 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:52 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 102 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 102. Intro: Ignorance is the first link of the Dependent Origination. It conditions the performing of kamma through body, speech and mind, and kamma will produce vipaaka in the form of rebirth or in the form of pleasant and unpleasant experiences through the senses. So long as the latent tendency of ignorance is not eradicated there will be rebirth and we shall continue being in the cycle of birth and death. Each akusala citta is rooted in ignorance, the root or hetu which is moha cetasika. Ignorance does not arise with kusala citta, but it still can condition kusala citta. In this paragraph it is explained in which ways ignorance is a condition for formations of merit, kusala kamma. ------------ Text Vis.: 102. Herein, 'for those of merit ignorance is a condition in two ways': it is a condition in two ways, namely, as object condition and as decisive-support condition. For ignorance is a condition, as object condition, for formations of merit of the sense sphere at the time of comprehending [by means of insight] ignorance as liable to destruction and fall; and it is likewise for those of the fine-material sphere at the time of knowing a confused mind by means of direct-knowledge consciousness [through penetrating others' minds, and so on]. ---------- N: The direct-knowledge consciousness stands for the Pali abhi~n~naa which are the higher spiritual powers developed through samatha. The Tika mentions that this is reckoned as penetration of the minds (of others), knowledge of one’s former lives and of the future. Ignorance of someone else can be object of abhi~n~naa in the case of penetrating the mind of others. Then ignorance conditions kusala citta with abhi~n~naa in being its object. The Tiika adds that also one’s own ignorance can be the object of citta at the time of comprehending it. As we read in the Text: ‘at the time of comprehending [by means of insight] ignorance as liable to destruction and fall...’ Thus, ignorance can be the object of insight and then it conditions kusala citta by way of object-condition. -------- Text Vis.: But it is a condition, as decisive-support condition, in two cases, that is to say, [for sense-sphere formation] in one who, for the purpose of surmounting ignorance, fulfills the various instances of sense-sphere merit-making consisting in giving, etc., and [for the fine-material-sphere formation] in one who arouses the fine-material jhanas [for the same purpose]. ---------- N: The decisive-support-condition includes natural decisive-support- condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya). Akusala can condition kusala by way of this condition. When one sees the disadvantage of akusala one may be exhorted to develop kusala. The Tiika explains that when someone sees the danger of ignorance as the precursor of all akusala that occurs and the danger of all misfortunes that have ignorance as root-cause, he realizes the benefit of surmounting it, he aspires for the end of the cycle (viva.t.ta). ------------ Text Vis.: Likewise in one who effects that merit while aspiring to the delight of sense-sphere becoming and fine-material becoming because he is confused by ignorance. ------- N: The Tiika adds: he is confused by ignorance that conceals the danger of rebirth. Ignorance is a decisive support-condition for kusala in the case of someone who performs daana, siila, or develops jhaana with the expectation of a happy rebirth. We may develop good deeds with a view on a happy rebirth, but then we fail to see the danger of being in the cycle. One does not see that even a happy rebirth is dangerous, because when one’s lifespan in a happy plane is finished, one cannot be sure whether akusala kamma will produce an unhappy rebirth. Thus, in the first-mentioned case someone sees the danger of rebirth and develops kusala because he wants to overcome ignorance. In the second-mentioned case, someone does not see the danger of rebirth and develops kusala because he aspires for a happy rebirth. In both cases, ignorance conditions kusala kamma by way of natural decisive - support-condition. ------------ Conclusion: Ignorance does not know the true nature of paramattha dhammas and the intricate ways they condition each other. Ignorance conceals also at this very moment the danger of rebirth. We may perform many kinds of kusala, but what is our motivation? When understanding of dhammas is not developed, we take kusala for ‘my kusala’ and we wish to accumulate it so as to ensure a happy rebirth. We are intent on accumulation and not on eradication. At the moment of generosity, helping others or abstaining from akusala, the citta is kusala citta and it is not accompanied by ignorance. However, ignorance can condition kusala citta by way of natural decisive-support-condition. When we see the danger of ignorance and want to overcome it, kusala can be performed with the aim to have less defilements. Kusala can be performed together with satipa.t.thaana so that wrong view and eventually ignorance can be eradicated. Ignorance can condition kusala by way of natural decisive-support-condition when one’s aim is to overcome ignorance by right understanding of realities. As we have seen, ignorance can be the object of insight. When ignorance arises it can be known as it is, as a conditioned dhamma. When insight is developed more ignorance can be seen as ‘ liable to destruction and fall’, its arising and ceasing can be realized. Then ignorance conditions the kusala citta with insight by way of object- condition. Insight can become supramundane pa~n~naa which realizes the four noble Truths and eradicates defilements. There are four stages of enlightenment and when the fourth stage, the stage of the arahat, has been reached, ignorance is completely eradicated. The arahat will not be reborn, he has reached the end of the cycle . ****** Nina. #63611 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:59 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 82 nilovg Dear friends, The sahetuka patisandhi-cittas which are the results of kåmåvacara kusala kammas can be classified as eight different types in all. Summing them up they are: 1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-sampayutta.m, asa.nkhaarikam eka.m). 2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, prompted. (Somanassa- sahagata.m, ~naa.na-sampayutta.m, sasa.nkhaarikam eka.m). 3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, unprompted. (Somanassa-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-vippayutta.m, asa.nkhaarikam eka.m). 4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, prompted. (Somanassa-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-vippayutta.m, sasa.nkhaarikam eka.m). 5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, unprompted. (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-sampayutta.m, asa.nkhaarikam eka.m). 6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, prompted. (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-sampayutta.m, sasa.nkhaarikam eka.m). 7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, unprompted. (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-vippayutta.m, asa.nkhaarikam eka.m). 8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, prompted. (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-vippayutta.m, sasa.nkhaarikam eka.m). It is useful to know more details about patisandhi-citta, because it can help us to understand why people are so different. The eight types of sahetuka paìisandhi-citta which are the results of kåmåvacara kusala kammas do not arise only in the human plane, but they also arise in those heavenly planes of existence which are ``sensuous'' planes of existence, kåma-bhúmi. ****** Nina #63612 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:59 am Subject: Rob's forum on jhana, no 12 nilovg Dear friends, Wolfgang: Dear Robert and Scott, As I said and understood the Visuddhi-magga: Only 1 out of 1 - 10 millions who try would succeed in the mastery of only the first Jhana. However, because no one, and certainly not a recluse, can know so many people personally - for me this remains a futile speculation - and a sign that the whole of the Visuddhimagga is written out of book-knowledge - and not out of personal experience of the path. This holds valid for me only! ---------- Rob: Dear Wolfgang, When The Visuddimagga talks about mastery it means having the ability to leave and enter at will in any situation at any time. One who has mastery could be listening to a talk while rapidly entering and exiting jhana. There were many monks like Sariputta and Moggalana who could do that in the Buddha's day, but I believe no one at this time would have such abilities. Thus to be able to attain first jhana Buddhaghosa is saying only one in 10,,000 - 100,000 can do it (not 1 in 10million). In another commentary he says that there are still many now (at his time) who are arahants (which is much harder than even attaining jhana). You see those who have genuine abilities will tend to associate- like at the Mahavihara in Sri lanka where Buddhaghosa lived, thus you get a concentration of great beings . Among those beings the odds of attaining jhana are astronomically reduced. I think we should be cautious in assuming Buddhaghosa had no personal experience. In any event he was editing the ancient Commentaries brought to sri lanka by venerable Mahinda, it is not his opinion, it is that of the ancients of Theravada. And Buddhaghosa's commentaries have been accepted, recited and carried on by the wise elders of Theravada for over a millenia; we are not so wise in this later half of the sasana. Robert ------------ Wolfgang: Dear Robert and Scott, Of course, this was not Jhana, jet. It was just being removed from the hindrances. As it is described in the Kevaddha Sutta and through which - according to the Sutta - one would proceed to the Jhanas, if persisted long enough. This removal of the hindrances is called access-concentration, Upacara-samadhi in the commentaries. A word, I may add, not existing in the old Sutta text - but in this meaning it is. The Burmese laypeople coming to give alms-food, didn't particularly liked me. Because in the beginning I wore a beard and long hair - like the Muslims brothers in the vicinity, which were equally not particularly liked. But in these periods, there was no way for my to avoid the rumor from spreading: I allegedly would have attained Jhana. Simply because my happiness radiated out of every gesture of mine, at that time. (anicca...) --------- Rob: Dear Wolfgang, Only we ourselves can really know, but I mention an experience I had. In the late eighties I was staying at a vipassana center in Thailand, several months. One day I had to go into the town to renew my visa or something. I went into a shop and someone said my complexion was so clear. And then in another shop a girl asked me why I looked so bright and glowing. I told her I was staying at a the center (which she knew) and she went and got her father (or uncle or someone). He came out and asked me about Dhamma and meditation and so on. All based on this glowing skin. Actually I found out (eventually), that what it was, was a purified type of lobha was conditioning this phenomena. But I was proud of it and thought it a good thing. Delusion - but taken as the right way. So wrong effort was producing wrong concentration and ..... The teacher was well-known, had written Dhamma books, was 85 years old, he thought I had made special progress, I was happy... This type of subtle lobha is pleasant, and if it can be maintained you feel calmer than normal daily life with its constant interupitions and distractions. And it takes much effort to maintain it- but it is still only lobha. I am not suggesting this is related to you but I mention it to show how it is possible to go wrong. Especially I think we should not be excited by how others estimate us, or how they estimate others. I read on esangha yesterday about the very famous Luang por Koon in Thailand, many people think he is arahant but he gives out amulets, and gives special auspicious taps, magical things. People are exceedingly impressed by rumor and reputation. Robert (end quotes) ***** Nina. #63613 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:02 am Subject: Right intention/samma sankappa (Nina) nilovg Hi Phil and all, I shall see to this after Oct 2, since I go away tomorrow and have to close my Email until Oct 2. Nina. #63614 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Vis. 96, postnascence. sarahprocter... Hi Larry, I meant to also thank you for the excellent quotes. Nina already answered the questions at the end. I always appreciate the text material you come in with. Metta, Sarah --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah and Nina, > > Here's the scoop on consciusness produced rupas from CMA*. I have a > couple of questions at the end. > > CMA, p.247: "The seventy-five types of consciousness, excluding the > immaterial-sphere resultants and the two sets of fivefold sense > consciousness, produce material phenomena originating from consciousness > beginning with the first moment of the life-continuum, but they do so > only (at the moment of) arising. #63615 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:16 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 528- The Three Abstinences/virati-cetasikas (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Chapter 32 The Three Abstinences(virati-cetasikas) There are twenty five sobhana cetasikas in all which arise only with sobhana cittas. Nineteen among these arise with every sobhana citta, whereas six of them do not arise with every sobhana citta. Among these six sobhana cetasikas there are three which are abstinences or virati-cetasikas. They are: abstinence from wrong speech, vaci-duccarita virati abstinence from wrong action, kåya-duccarita virati abstinence from wrong livelihood, åjíva-duccarita virati As regards abstinence from wrong speech, this is abstinence from lying, slandering, harsh speech and idle, frivolous talk. Abstinence from wrong action comprises abstinence from killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. Abstinence from wrong livelihood is abstinence from wrong speech and wrong action committed for the sake of one’s livelihood. ***** The Three Abstinences(virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63616 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >>What are your own thoughts? >> >> > >You should already know my thoughts. I find the sutta to be >applicapable to all lay followers of the Buddha. Additionally, in >the sutta, Sariputa reiterates what the Buddha suggests and tells >the benefits of such a jhana practice. > > Well I was rather hoping for some reasons, and perhaps some discussion on the reasons I gave ;-)) >I also think that you are simply trying to look for loopholes out of >this sutta but there really aren't any. Unless you can state >SPECIFICALLY what was special or unique about those 500 >householders, then what the Buddha taught to them is applicapable to >all householders. > > Well accepting that you are right and the sutta is applicable to all lay-followers, what do you think this means in practical terms? The sutta is usually quoted to show that the attainment of jhana by householders is possible. Do you read it as going further than that? If so, what is the significance of the fact that the lay followers in question were already practised in giving support to the Sangha of monks, since this was specifically mentioned by the Buddha in giving his advice to them? Jon #63617 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon (& Howard), You gave some good quotes on internal and external rupas and so on. --- nidive wrote: > A car is real, yet it is not a self-existent entity. If it were a > self-existent entity, it would not be subject to corrosion, decay and > destruction. The same logic applies for trees, TV sets, concrete > pavements and all else external to the body. .... S: When you say 'a car is real', what do you mean by this, if I may ask? I think we can say that we take 'people, trees and cars' for 'atta', for 'wholes' rather than appreciating that only namas and rupas arise and fall away. <...> ... > If your heart is not real, you wouldn't be posting messages here. .... S: Again, isn't what we take for heart really made up of many different rupas? Of course, usually when we refer to 'heart' it's just for convenience without any wrong view of substance or atta associated with it. Btw, I thought you, Howard (and Nina) were having a useful and interesting discussion on Dukkha while we were away. All the khandhas are dukkha as you say. All the khandhas (excepting the lokuttara cittas) can be upadana khandha when clung to. Even the arahant's khandhas are upadana khandha when clung to by others. Now, the rupas of the rocks on the moon are therefore dukkha, but never upadana khandha (unless we happen to visit the moon). Do you see any significance in the description of the 1st Noble Truth of dukkha when it says 'in short, the 5 *upadana* khandhas are dukkha'? I'm just curious about this point. Thanks again for the good quotes and threads. Metta, Sarah ====== #63618 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] too distracted, and renunciation. sarahprocter... Hi Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Sorry, almost missed this one. > > S: "Scott, thanks for the clarification of your e-card from the > Patthana. I wasn't sure if it was a meditation induced bliss or a > textual induced one:-))." > > I think textual-induced, actually, although the meanings of bhavana > seem broad and I would say include certain states which accompany > textual comtemplation. That being said, perhaps it was bliss of a > "meditational" variety. ;-) .... S: Ah yes - bhavana - the samatha or vipassana kind - can be at any time, including while we reflect on dhamma now. As for the bliss - well, we all know that it can accompany kusala or akusala cittas, also whilst reflecting on the texts:-). Only sati can be aware of it and panna can know it for what it is. ... > > S: "Why not let us know what you're finding of special interest/help?" > > Well, I just read the material in Nina's work, in Pa.t.thaana itself, > and in Visuddhimagga and just got this sense that "accumulations" > suddenly made more sense in a sort of exciting, albeit rather > non-intellectual way if that makes sense. As such I don't have many > content-related remarks to make. It just is cool. ... S: You obviously have 'accumulations' to really appreciate the value and detail, Scott. If you care to elaborate on your comment above, it may encourage others and who knows, they may get blissed out too:-). Metta, Sarah ========= #63619 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi James Thanks for deciding to continue the thread. buddhatrue wrote: >Oh, on second thought, I guess I could give it one more go. Here is >some information: > >The area of practice must be quiet and well-lit. One must make sure >the practice area is also clean and tidy. The background against >which the kasina device is placed must not be cluttered or show >visually-distracting features. One's sitting posture must be >comfortable (any arrangement of the legs/arms will do as long as the >back is self-supported and straight). The image should be imprinted >on a suitable surface such as a plate. Usually a coloured or white >circle with a black border centred on a square white surface will do >(squares, triangles or other regular polygons could be used as >suitable images, as well). >http://www.birken.ca/texts/Kasina_final.html > > I've had a look at the article. There is a lot of talk about concentrating on a kasina, and the kinds of images that may arise. In terms of what is being suggested as a form of 'practice', the crux of the article is in the following passage: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< The /kasina/ device should be placed between 1.5 and 3 meters away from the eyes. One then stares at the centre of the coloured image without considering the border or the remaining white area. One may blink one’s eyes to relieve them of tension or fatigue. Focusing on the colour one may initially repeat to oneself (mantra-like) the corresponding name of the colour (e.g. “blue, blue, …”) for a short while until the initial focus on the object has been established and one is increasingly less distracted. Then all verbalization is abandoned and one focuses exclusively on the “blueness,” with firm intent to subdue or keep at bay other thoughts or sensory experiences. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The question that come to my mind is, What is the kusala involved in this? Nowhere in the texts does it suggest that staring at a kasina is kusala of any kind. And if the consciousness is not kusala, then it is not samatha that is being developed. So I'd be wary of simply following a set of instructions such as these. Jon #63620 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, Butting in here as well.... --- nidive wrote: > Actually metta, when systematically developed, does indeed lead to > jhanas even without panna. But this will only lead to a happy rebirth > in the Brahma worlds. ..... S: I understand that for any kind of bhavana -- samatha or vipassana bhavana -- panna is necessary from the start. So metta can arise anytime in a day because of our inclinations for such, but unless there is any panna which understands such moments of metta, which understands the distinction between metta and clinging and so on, there cannot be any development of samatha at all, let alone to jhana. As you say, even jhana can only lead to happy rebirths in Brahma worlds. ... > > How then does the development of metta in conjunction with panna lead > to awakening? The Buddha provides an answer. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an11/an11.017.than. > html#brahma <...> > Seeing for yourself that metta is actually fabricated, inconstant, > not-self and subject to cessation is the key to awakening. ... S: Yes, I think that understanding metta (and all other conditioned dhammas) are this way is the key. Metta, Sarah ======= #63621 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >>What are your own thoughts? >> >> > >You should already know my thoughts. I find the sutta to be >applicapable to all lay followers of the Buddha. Additionally, in >the sutta, Sariputa reiterates what the Buddha suggests and tells >the benefits of such a jhana practice. > > Well I was rather hoping for some reasons, and perhaps some discussion on the reasons I gave ;-)) Oh, sorry, but I didn't really see what you gave as reasons. I just saw it as conjecture on your part. Why discuss conjecture? I would rather just go on what the sutta specifically states. >I also think that you are simply trying to look for loopholes out of >this sutta but there really aren't any. Unless you can state >SPECIFICALLY what was special or unique about those 500 >householders, then what the Buddha taught to them is applicapable to >all householders. > > Well accepting that you are right and the sutta is applicable to all lay-followers, what do you think this means in practical terms? The sutta is usually quoted to show that the attainment of jhana by householders is possible. Do you read it as going further than that? No, I just read it as stating that the attainment of jhana by householders is possible, that's all. The Buddha was giving the householders something more that they could do rather than just giving requisites. He cared for their well-being, he wasn't just greedy to get things (of course). If they should choose to follow this extra bit of advice or not is up to them. I was just some advice, not a commandment. Even Sariputta saw it as such and told the benefits of such jhana practice, in order to let them know the benefits. He didn't say, "Oh yes, you must do this!" I think the message is pretty clear. I'm not sure why we are over-anaylzing this thing to death! ;-)) If so, what is the significance of the fact that the lay followers in question were already practised in giving support to the Sangha of monks, since this was specifically mentioned by the Buddha in giving his advice to them? This question is moot in relation to my previous answer. Jon Metta, James #63622 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:21 am Subject: Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > The question that come to my mind is, What is the kusala involved in > this? Nowhere in the texts does it suggest that staring at a kasina is > kusala of any kind. And if the consciousness is not kusala, then it is > not samatha that is being developed. Jon, just like "panna", "kusala" is one of those Pali words you often abuse. What you wrote above doesn't have any meaning because you are not properly defining "kusala" or "samatha". Where is your textual support? Where is your reasoning? Remember, I am not convinced or impressed by the use of Pali words, especially when I see them as being misused. > > So I'd be wary of simply following a set of instructions such as these. Well, of course you can be wary of following anything you feel; however, with all due respect, I would rather follow the instructions of a respected bhikkhu (of Mexican descent), rather than a retired attorney. Who do you think is the most credible dhamma expert? What should the jury conclude? ;-)) > > Jon > Metta, James P.S. Here is the bhikkhú's autobiography: Miguel A. Romero, de origen mexicano-canadiense, fue monje buddhista theravâda por casi seis años, residente del Birken Forest Monastery. Su nombre como monje era Venerable Thitapuñño Bhikkhu. Habiendo obtenido un Doctorado en Química (UBC) se dedicó a la enseñanza y la investigación en ese campo hasta su ordenación como novicio (sâmanera) en 1997, en el Birken Forest Monastery, Canadá. En 1998 recibió la ordenación monástica superior (upasampâdâ) en el Abhayagiri Buddhist Monastery, California, siendo su preceptor el Venerable Achaan Pasanno. En mayo de 2004 decidió retornar a la vida de buddhista laico. Translated: Miguel A. Romero, of Mexican-Canadian origin, was buddhista monk theravâda by almost six years, resident of the Birken Forest Monastery. Its name like monk was Venerable Thitapuñño Bhikkhu. Having obtained a Doctorate in Química (UBC) one dedicated to education and the investigation in that field until his arrangement like beginner (sâmanera) in 1997, in the Birken Forest Monastery, Canada. In 1998 it received the superior monástica arrangement (upasampâdâ) in the Abhayagiri Buddhist Monastery, California, being his teacher the Venerable Achaan Pasanno. In May of 2004 it decided to return to the life of lay buddhista. #63623 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner - Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas hantun1 Dear Sarah, Nina and others, I had not received any messages on Cetasikas’ study corner in my mail box for a very long time. (But I received all other DSG messages.) The most recent one that I received on Cetasikas’ study corner was on the beginning paragraph of The Three Abstinences. Anyway, I would like to answer the questions on The Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas. Questions (i ) Why are pliancy of cetasikas and of citta the opponents of wrong view and conceit? They have the characteristic of suppressing the rigidity of mental factors and of consciousness (kaaya-citta thaddhataasama lakkhanaa); the function of crushing the same in both (tassaa nimmaddana rasaa); the manifestation or effect of setting up no resistance (appatighaatupatthaanakaa); and have mental factors and consciousness as proximate cause (kaaya-citta padatthaanaa). They are the opponents of the corruptions, such as wrong view and conceit which cause mental rigidity (ditthi maana paccanikaa). Wrong view causes rigidity and inflexibility. When someone, for example, is attached to wrong practice, he may stick to his old habits and way of thinking and then it is very difficult to eradicate wrong view. Similarly, when there is conceit there is mental rigidity, we are inclined to compare ourselves time and again with others in a conceited way as regards health, appearance, gain, honour or intelligence. The pliancy of cetasikas and of citta, by virtue of their characteristic and function, are the opponents of such wrong views and conceit. ------------------------------ (ii) Why is it said that there is freedom from illness when there is proficiency of cetasikas and of citta? The proficiency of cetasikas and of citta have the characteristic of suppressing the sickness of mental factors and of consciousness (kaaya-citta gelannasama lakkhanaa); the function of crushing the same in both (tassaa nimmaddana rasaa); the manifestation of not besetting with dangers (niraadiinavaupatthaanaakaa); and have mental factors and consciousness as proximate cause (kaaya-citta padatthaanaa). They are the opponents of kilesas born out of lack of faith, asaddha (asaddhiyapaccanikaa). When the citta is akusala citta, there is diffidence, lack of confidence in kusala and then there is mental sickness. Mental proficiency assists the kusala citta and then citta and cetasikas are healthy and skilful so that they can perform their functions in the most efficient way. Therefore, there will be freedom from mental illness when there is proficiency of cetasikas and of citta. ------------------------------ (iii) Why is diffidence, lack of faith (saddhå), the cause of mental illness? The saddha has the characteristic of placing faith or of trusting (saddahana lakkhanaa); its function is to clarify (pasaadana rasaa), as a water-clearing gem causes muddy water to become clear; or its function is to set forth, as one might set forth to cross a flood. It is manifested as non-fogginess (akaalusiya upatthaanaa), i.e., the removal of the mind’s impurities, or as resolution. Its proximate cause is something to place faith in (saddheyya-vatthu padatthaanaa), or the hearing of the Good Dhamma, etc., that constitute the factors of stream-entry. When there is no faith, there cannot be purity of mind (pasaadana), the mind will be foggy (kaalusiya), and cannot remove the mind’s impurities. Therefore, the lack of faith can cause of mental illness. ------------------------------ (iv) Why has the sotåpanna a higher degree of proficiency in kusala than the non-ariyan? The sotapanna has eradicated wrong view (sakkaya ditthi), doubt, and wrong rites and rituals, and he will never neglect the five moral precepts. His generosity and his observance of morality is purer than the generosity and morality of the non-ariyan, he has no clinging to a wrong idea of "my kusala". His confidence in the Buddha's teachings has become unshakable, it has become a "power". Thus he has, in comparison to the non-ariyan, a higher degree of efficiency and competence with regard to kusala. ------------------------------ (v ) Why does uprightness develop to the extent that right understanding of realities develops? The uprightness of cetasikas and of citta has the characteristic of straight or uprightness (kaaya-citta ajjava lakkhanaa); its function is to crush crookedness (kotilla nimmadana rasaa); it is manifested as non-crookedness (ajimhataa upatthaanaa), and have mental factors and consciousness as proximate cause (kaaya-citta padatthaanaa). They are the opponents of the corruptions, such as deception and craftiness (maayaa saatheya paccanikaa). In crushing such insincerity and corruptions as deception and craftiness, there are many degrees of uprightness. To the extent uprightness develops right understanding develops; and to the extent right understanding develops uprightness also develops. ------------------------------ (vi) Why is the ariyan called a person who walks straight? The ariyan is called the person who walks straight because he is on the straight, true and proper way (ujupatipanno). He is on the middle Path, avoiding extremes; he is on the Path which leads to the eradication of defilements. One is on the middle Path when there is the development of understanding of whatever reality appears, even if it is akusala. One walks straight when one develops right understanding in daily life, and learns the truth that each reality which arises is conditioned and that it is non-self. -------------------- (vii) Which factor conditions most of all the growth of all wholesome qualities? Right understanding is the factor which conditions most of all the development of all the wholesome qualities represented by the six pairs of beautiful cetasikas. In the arahat they have reached perfection. Respectfully, Han #63624 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:36 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner - Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas nilovg Dear Han, I was hoping to hear from you:-)) ------------- Questions (i ) Why are pliancy of cetasikas and of citta the opponents of wrong view and conceit? They have the characteristic of suppressing the rigidity of mental factors and of consciousness... Wrong view causes rigidity and inflexibility. When someone, for example, is attached to wrong practice, he may stick to his old habits and way of thinking and then it is very difficult to eradicate wrong view. Similarly, when there is conceit there is mental rigidity, we are inclined to compare ourselves time and again with others in a conceited way as regards health, appearance, gain, honour or intelligence. The pliancy of cetasikas and of citta, by virtue of their characteristic and function, are the opponents of such wrong views and conceit. ------------------------------ N: I am glad you give the Pali, and also your answer is very good. ---------- H: (ii) Why is it said that there is freedom from illness when there is proficiency of cetasikas and of citta? The proficiency of cetasikas and of citta have the characteristic of suppressing the sickness of mental factors and of consciousness (kaaya-citta gelannasama lakkhanaa); ... When the citta is akusala citta, there is diffidence, lack of confidence in kusala and then there is mental sickness. Mental proficiency assists the kusala citta and then citta and cetasikas are healthy and skilful so that they can perform their functions in the most efficient way. Therefore, there will be freedom from mental illness when there is proficiency of cetasikas and of citta. ------------------------------ H: (iii) Why is diffidence, lack of faith (saddhå), the cause of mental illness? The saddha has the characteristic of placing faith or of trusting (saddahana lakkhanaa); its function is to clarify (pasaadana rasaa), as a water-clearing gem causes muddy water to become clear; or its function is to set forth, as one might set forth to cross a flood. It is manifested as non-fogginess (akaalusiya upatthaanaa), i.e., the removal of the mind’s impurities, or as resolution. Its proximate cause is something to place faith in (saddheyya-vatthu padatthaanaa), or the hearing of the Good Dhamma, etc., that constitute the factors of stream-entry. When there is no faith, there cannot be purity of mind (pasaadana), the mind will be foggy (kaalusiya), and cannot remove the mind’s impurities. Therefore, the lack of faith can cause of mental illness. ------------------------------ N: Listening to the dhamma is mentioned as an important condition for saddhaa. It is manifested as resolution: resolution or determination to keep on developing understanding of whatever dhamma presents itself, without becoming disheartened when there is not much progress. Without becoming disheartened by one's defilements. ----------- H: (iv) Why has the sotåpanna a higher degree of proficiency in kusala than the non-ariyan? The sotapanna has eradicated wrong view (sakkaya ditthi), doubt, and wrong rites and rituals, and he will never neglect the five moral precepts. His generosity and his observance of morality is purer than the generosity and morality of the non-ariyan, he has no clinging to a wrong idea of "my kusala". His confidence in the Buddha's teachings has become unshakable, it has become a "power". Thus he has, in comparison to the non-ariyan, a higher degree of efficiency and competence with regard to kusala. ------------------------------ N: Clinging to my kusala: but it is very hard to know this right at the moment, I discussed this with Lodewijk. We can notice all sorts of akusala interspersed with kusala, for example conceit, we find ourselves so good. We concluded that insight must be developed to know exactly when one takes kusala for my kusala. Now we know this only in a 'foggy' way. When we notice so many defilements it is also a good lesson, here dhammas are our teacher, to use Matheesha's expression. We are motivated to continue developing satipatthanaa. ---------- H: (v ) Why does uprightness develop to the extent that right understanding of realities develops? The uprightness of cetasikas and of citta has the characteristic of straight or uprightness (kaaya-citta ajjava lakkhanaa); .... In crushing such insincerity and corruptions as deception and craftiness, there are many degrees of uprightness. To the extent uprightness develops right understanding develops; and to the extent right understanding develops uprightness also develops. ------------------------------ N: Very well said, an interaction. Lodewijk and I have often discussed sincerity, not pretending anything to oneself. Not pretending that the citta is pure kusala when there are also many other motives. We cannot expect much from ourselves as regards kusala, can't we? But we can say this with gratefulness to the Buddha, because without his teachings where would we be? We would not know anything. The Brahma viharas are difficult, because there are all these near enemies, unnoticed! ------------ H: (vi) Why is the ariyan called a person who walks straight? The ariyan is called the person who walks straight because he is on the straight, true and proper way (ujupatipanno). He is on the middle Path, avoiding extremes; he is on the Path which leads to the eradication of defilements. One is on the middle Path when there is the development of understanding of whatever reality appears, even if it is akusala. One walks straight when one develops right understanding in daily life, and learns the truth that each reality which arises is conditioned and that it is non-self. -------------------- N: For him sati and pa~n~naa have become powers, they arise in whatever situation he is in, no matter how difficult, no matter how miserable. He very keenly and sharply sees what is kusala and what is akusala, right at the moment it appears. He has pure motivations for dana. siila and bhaavana, he develops kusala with the aim to have less defilements and to eventually be freed form the cycle of birth and death. -------- H:(vii) Which factor conditions most of all the growth of all wholesome qualities? Right understanding is the factor which conditions most of all the development of all the wholesome qualities represented by the six pairs of beautiful cetasikas. In the arahat they have reached perfection. --------- Han, it is always a privilege to listen to your wise words. It helps me to consider the teachings more, it never is enough. I find these days that I think that I have understood some things, but I haven't yet. Thank you very much. Nina. #63625 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:21 am Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Sarah, > S: When you say 'a car is real', what do you mean by this, if I may > ask? I think we can say that we take 'people, trees and cars' for > 'atta', for 'wholes' rather than appreciating that only namas and > rupas arise and fall away. What is real? Form that is anicca, dukkha and anatta is real. > > If your heart is not real, you wouldn't be posting messages here. > .... > S: Again, isn't what we take for heart really made up of many > different rupas? Of course, usually when we refer to 'heart' it's > just for convenience without any wrong view of substance or atta > associated with it. What exists? Form that is anicca, dukkha and anatta exists. > All the khandhas are dukkha as you say. All the khandhas (excepting > the lokuttara cittas) can be upadana khandha when clung to. Even the > arahant's khandhas are upadana khandha when clung to by others. > Now, the rupas of the rocks on the moon are therefore dukkha, but > never upadana khandha (unless we happen to visit the moon). > Do you see any significance in the description of the 1st Noble > Truth of dukkha when it says 'in short, the 5 *upadana* khandhas > are dukkha'? I'm just curious about this point. I have thought of this before. Some people might misconstrue this to mean that the five aggregates are not dukkha if there is no clinging. But this would contradict the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta where the Buddha referred to the five khandhas (without referring to the word upadana) as anicca, dukkha and anatta. Therefore, the *upadana* in the term "upadana khandhas" in the First Noble Truth is to emphasize the fact that the five khandhas can be clung on to, and if clung on to, propagates the whole chain of dependent co-arising in forward order, that is, it propagates the whole chain of dukkha back to the five khandhas again. It is interesting to note that the Buddha defines birth in dependent co-arising as the "appearance of aggregates". Regards, Swee Boon #63626 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:43 am Subject: Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nidive Hi Sarah, > S: I understand that for any kind of bhavana -- samatha or vipassana > bhavana -- panna is necessary from the start. How do you define panna? Is it not possible to attain the jhanas without knowledge of the Dhamma? Regards, Swee Boon #63627 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:27 pm Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Swee Boon, ----------------- SB: > In that case, am I right to say that whatever mental feelings of pleasure that I experience now is all conditioned by the past? ----------------- I'm not an expert on this, but I know that some dhammas, having been conditioned to arise, condition (or help to condition) other dhammas to arise with them. Once arisen, all dhammas condition each other (to perform their functions and to fall away, I suppose). ---------------------------- SB: > Am I right to say that whatever mental feelings of pain that I experience now is all conditioned by the past? --------------------------- That might not be a good example. When mental pain (painful vedana, domanassa) has arisen to experience an object and then, itself, becomes an object of experience, that pain is a dhamma that has just fallen away (that arose in an immediate preceding citta process). Perhaps you meant to ask, is the painful mental feeling that arises now, conditioned by the past? I think it is largely conditioned by the dosa that arose with it. I will agree, however, that if you follow the chain back far enough, you will find that all present conditions owe their existence to past conditions. ---------------------------------- SB: > Am I right to say that whatever mental feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain that I experience now is all conditioned by the past? > So, coming back to our original question: where, in all of this, is > there any control over the arising/non-arising, of dosa? In that case, I agree with you that there is no control over the arising and non-arising of dosa. Why is that so? Because whatever mental feelings of pain that I experience now is all conditioned by the past. ---------------------------------- I'm glad you agree. I think it is sufficient to say they are conditioned: the addition of "by the past" or "by dhammas that existed in the past" does not make any difference to their non-controllability, does it? Ken H #63628 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner - Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas hantun1 Dear Nina (and Sarah), Thank you very much for your further very valuable explanations. It makes me understand the subject better. Yes, it is never enough to learn. I like your question: “But we can say this with gratefulness to the Buddha, because without his teachings where would we be?” Without his teachings, we would not know anything. I can only revere most humbly the immense wisdom of our Blessed One. I also take note of your statement that the Brahma viharas are difficult, because there are all these near enemies, unnoticed! At the very beginning I thought it would be easy to live with Brahma viharas, but I realized later that it is not that easy because, as you said, of the near enemies. Listening to the dhamma is indeed an important condition for saddhaa. I am also encouraged by your words: “without becoming disheartened when there is not much progress, and without becoming disheartened by one's defilements.” It is necessary that we keep on developing right understanding of whatever dhamma that presents itself. I thought I would never achieve any significant progress in this life, because of my very late start when my faculties are already in the process of deterioration. But your words are an encouragement. My best regards to Lodewijk. With deep appreciation and respect, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > I was hoping to hear from you:-)) > ------------- #63629 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? jonoabb Hi Howard I've been following the discussion on this thread with interest. I hope you don't mind if I come in on your original post. upasaka@... wrote: >Hi all - > > Let us consider the rupas of hardness. As far as I'm concerned, it is >a sensation. It exists, momentarily arising & ceasing, only as an object of >body consciousness. Were it to arise in any other fashion, how would it do so, >and where would it do so? > These questions may equally be asked in relation to the rupa of hardness that is the present object of body consciousness: how does it arise, and where does it arise? The assumption that the presently experienced rupa arises because (and only because) it is the object of consciousness is just that: an assumption. I'm wondering if your assumption based on subjective experience or on conceptual thinking. Is there anything about the actual experience of presently-hardness that suggests to you that that rupa could not have arisen already before becoming the object of that experience? >It does not arise as a property of conventional >objects such as trees, tables, keyboards, and kyacks, for they are not realities >but only mentally concocted (on a sound basis, of course - they aren't >unicorns). So, if hardness could arise, in reality, as neither the quality of a >conventional entity, which I expect no argument about from the "core" DSG-ers, nor as >a felt bodily sensation, which is what is claimed possible by those who >assert independence of rupa from nama, what would that hardness be, and where would >it be? (It is such a question that induced me a while back to introduce the >term 'The land of lost rupas'.) > > I'd like to know more about the difficulty you are trying to describe in this paragraph, as it doesn't strike a bell with me (but I'm sure there's something to it). Could you explain a little what you mean by 'lost' in this context? Thanks. Jon PS Rupas depend on namas for being experienced, but not (with some exceptions) for their arising. As I see it, the dictum in the 'sheaves of reeds' sutta refers to the experiencing of rupas, not to their arising. #63630 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:12 pm Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self nidive Hi Ken H, > I'm not an expert on this, but I know that some dhammas, having been > conditioned to arise, condition (or help to condition) other dhammas > to arise with them. Once arisen, all dhammas condition each other > (to perform their functions and to fall away, I suppose). It must be possible to condition the mind such that anger and aversion is reduced or eliminated, otherwise there would be no release from anger and aversion. Is that agreeable with you? As to the mechanisms of conditioning the mind such that anger and aversion is reduced or eliminated, I will ask you again when you have become an expert. Regards, Swee Boon #63631 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Jon & Howard, > PS Rupas depend on namas for being experienced, but not (with some > exceptions) for their arising. As I see it, the dictum in the > 'sheaves of reeds' sutta refers to the experiencing of rupas, not > to their arising. Name-&-form depends on consciousness & consciousness depends on name- &-form. Are these two dependencies to be understood as a one-way traffic converging on the "experiencing" process? I think it is good to see how the Buddha interprets these two dependencies. How the Buddha interprets "name-&-form depends on consciousness": -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html "'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name- and-form take shape in the womb?" "No, lord." "If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?" "No, lord." "If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?" "No, lord." -------------------------------------------------------------------- How the Buddha interprets "consciousness depends on name-&-form": -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html "'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress in the future be discerned? -------------------------------------------------------------------- The meaning of "gaining a foothold in name-&-form" is explained in the Chachakka Sutta MN 148: -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html "'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. 'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the third sextet. -------------------------------------------------------------------- "Origination of birth, aging, death, and stress in the future" refers to "craving that makes for further becoming", that is the Second Noble Truth. (By the way, this version of the Second Noble Truth actually violates the sacred grounds that Howard holds on to. He sees this as a distortion.) The Chachakka Sutta continues with how the meeting of the eye, forms and eye consciousness is contact, with contact as requisite condition, there is feeling, and with feeling as requisite condition, there is a coming-into-play of craving. As I see it, only the dependency of "consciousness depends on name-&- form" describes the 'experiencing' process. The other dependency of "name-&-form depends on consciousness" does not describe the 'experiencing' process. Regards, Swee Boon #63632 From: "Leo" Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:36 am Subject: some points on art leoaive Hi It looks sometimes that there is an issue regarding art on fabric in terms of: it is reminding lady with her fabrics. From my readings and meditations I found that fabric is not really a mattress. Also, a city with rock walls have prostitutes. I guess it is ok to post it. We just analyse a little more that subject. With Metta Leo #63633 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:43 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 529- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd We read in the Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part IV, Chapter I, 133) about the three kinds of abstinences: * "… As regards characteristic, etc., it has been said that each of these three does not trespass nor tread on objects of the other two. They have the function of shrinking from the same; and they have faith (saddhå), sense of shame (hiri), fear of blame (ottappa), contentment and more, as proximate antecedents. They should be regarded as produced by the averted state of the mind from evil action." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 155) gives a similar definition. We read that each of the three does not tread on objects of the other two. In the case of cittas of the sense-sphere (kåmåvacara cittas) these three kinds of abstinence arise one at a time, since there is abstinence from one kind of evil at a time. When we, for example, abstain from harsh speech, the cetasika which is abstinence from wrong speech accompanies the mahå-kusala citta and we do not abstain from wrong action at the same time, since there is only one citta at a time. When we are harshly spoken to and we do not answer back there is not always kusala citta with abstinence from wrong speech. We may keep silent with citta rooted in ignorance or with citta rooted in aversion and then there is akusala citta. If we abstain from retorting unpleasant speech with kindness and patience there is kusala citta accompanied by the cetasika which is abstinence from wrong speech. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63634 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner - Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, I thought you gave great and detailed answers and it's very helpful to read the Pali terms you inserted. Thank you very much. I've always appreciated the chapter on 'The six Pairs' and especially the reflections on kaya and citta-ujukataa (uprightness) a lot. 'Uprightness is the opponent of deception and craftiness'. With understanding, there is more and more sincerity and straigtness or rectitude. On your other point: --- han tun wrote: > I had not received any messages on Cetasikas’ study > corner in my mail box for a very long time. > (But I received all other DSG messages.) .... S: It's a mystery! If anyone has any suggestions for Han on this, pls send him a note off-list and maybe cc to me or Jon. I still wonder if there's a filter operating in your yahoo account which treats them as spam or something. Metta, Sarah ========= #63635 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:39 am Subject: Re: some points on art nidive Hi Leo, > It looks sometimes that there is an issue regarding art on fabric in > terms of: it is reminding lady with her fabrics. From my readings > and meditations I found that fabric is not really a mattress. > Also, a city with rock walls have prostitutes. I guess it is ok to > post it. We just analyse a little more that subject. I just quote a passage on sensuality for you to consider. ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html "'Sensuality should be known. The cause by which sensuality comes into play... The diversity in sensuality... The result of sensuality... The cessation of sensuality... The path of practice for the cessation of sensuality should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? "There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. But these are not sensuality. They are called strings of sensuality in the discipline of the noble ones. The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality, not the beautiful sensual pleasures found in the world. The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. The beauties remain as they are in the world, while the wise, in this regard, subdue their desire. "And what is the cause by which sensuality comes into play? Contact is the cause by which sensuality comes into play. "And what is the diversity in sensuality? Sensuality with regard to forms is one thing, sensuality with regard to sounds is another, sensuality with regard to aromas is another, sensuality with regard to flavors is another, sensuality with regard to tactile sensations is another. This is called the diversity in sensuality. "And what is the result of sensuality? One who wants sensuality produces a corresponding state of existence, on the side of merit or demerit. This is called the result of sensuality. "And what is the cessation of sensuality? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of sensuality; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the way leading to the cessation of sensuality. "Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns sensuality in this way, the cause by which sensuality comes into play in this way, the diversity of sensuality in this way, the result of sensuality in this way, the cessation of sensuality in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of sensuality in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of sensuality. "'Sensuality should be known. The cause by which sensuality comes into play... The diversity in sensuality... The result of sensuality... The cessation of sensuality... The path of practice for the cessation of sensuality should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon #63636 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner - Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your comments. As regards the messages on Cetasikas’ study corner, it really is a mystery, because I received all other DSG messages. I don’t think it is due to spam filter. If it were so, I would not have received other DSG messages as well. I have a copy of Nina’s Cetasikas, and if you would let me know by direct-email when you have reached the end of each chapter I think it will be alright. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han & all, > > On your other point: > > S: It's a mystery! If anyone has any suggestions for > Han on this, pls send > him a note off-list and maybe cc to me or Jon. I > still wonder if there's a > filter operating in your yahoo account which treats > them as spam or > something. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > > > #63637 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:54 am Subject: Re: some points on art buddhatrue Hi Leo and Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Leo, > > > It looks sometimes that there is an issue regarding art on fabric in > > terms of: To be a bit confessional on this topic, I have always had a problem with the Buddha's teaching on revulsion of the body. This isn't because I am overly lusty (though I have my moments ;-)) it is because I view the human body as a work of art. I see great beauty in the works of Michelangelo, Raphael, Da Vinci, and the Greek masters. I also see great beauty in nature and really appreciate the works of Van Gogh and Monet. I really do have somewhat of an eternal conflict with my love of art and my love of the dhamma. I don't want to give either up- but I do see a conflict. Art is sensual desire. Granted, it is a very high and refined form of sensual desire, but it is sensual desire all the same. But, often for me, art is what gets me through the day. Metta, James #63638 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/24/06 12:13:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > I've been following the discussion on this thread with interest. I hope > you don't mind if I come in on your original post. > > upasaka@... wrote: > > >Hi all - > > > > Let us consider the rupas of hardness. As far as I'm concerned, it is > >a sensation. It exists, momentarily arising &ceasing, only as an object of > >body consciousness. Were it to arise in any other fashion, how would it do > so, > >and where would it do so? > > > > These questions may equally be asked in relation to the rupa of hardness > that is the present object of body consciousness: how does it arise, and > where does it arise? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: That's true, Jon, and it is a good point. For me, it is sufficient to say that it arises as object of consciousness. (And, likewise, consciousness arises only as awareness of object.) As I see it, they are mutually dependent, with neither existing on its own or taking primacy. I admit that there is the seeming of hardness as arising "in" some conventional object such as a table, roadway surface, or fingernail, but I think we agree that that is a mere seeming. My stance is a pragmatic one: The only arising of consciouness that "I" ever experience is as the knowing of an object (rupa or nama), and the only arising of a rupa "I" ever experience is as the content of consciousness. I suspect, though I don't know for a fact, that there is no objectless consciousness, and I suspect there are no rupas arising except as objects of consciousness, though possibly at a subliminal level. If there were such a thing as objectless consciousness, I suppose that after the fact, it might be realized that it had occurred. At the opposite pole, however, if there were rupas arising unaccompanied by consciousness, that would necessarily be unknowable, as it is consciousness that is the experiencing. Thus, the pragmatic case for assuming no unexperienced rupas is the stronger of the two. Now, Jon, that's about the best that I can explain my position. It isn't a statement of unequivocal certainty, but only one of my tentative belief. And I have neither aim nor desire to force that belief on anyone else. I am rather perplexed at how much some other folks want to push the opposite position on me. (I'm not saying that you do. You are merely putting forward reasonable questions with regard to my position.) ------------------------------------------------- The assumption that the presently experienced rupa > > arises because (and only because) it is the object of consciousness is > just that: an assumption. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are correct. The facts are unknowable. I've explained the pragmat ic basis for my making the assumption. I can't do more. -------------------------------------------------- > > I'm wondering if your assumption based on subjective experience or on > conceptual thinking. Is there anything about the actual experience of > presently-hardness that suggests to you that that rupa could not have > arisen already before becoming the object of that experience? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that the "hardness-content-of-conciousness" would be something different from, though related to, an alleged unexperienced "hardness-thing". I cannot, however, assert with any assurance that there does not exist such a consciousness-independent thing that serves to create the felt-hardness experience. It might well exist, but it is merely hypothesized, and not a matter of experience. --------------------------------------------------- > > >It does not arise as a property of conventional > >objects such as trees, tables, keyboards, and kyacks, for they are not > realities > >but only mentally concocted (on a sound basis, of course - they aren't > >unicorns). So, if hardness could arise, in reality, as neither the quality > of a > >conventional entity, which I expect no argument about from the "core" > DSG-ers, nor as > >a felt bodily sensation, which is what is claimed possible by those who > >assert independence of rupa from nama, what would that hardness be, and > where would > >it be? (It is such a question that induced me a while back to introduce the > > >term 'The land of lost rupas'.) > > > > > > I'd like to know more about the difficulty you are trying to describe in > this paragraph, as it doesn't strike a bell with me (but I'm sure > there's something to it). Could you explain a little what you mean by > 'lost' in this context? Thanks. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm afraid I cannot do any better on this, Jon. ----------------------------------------- > > Jon > > PS Rupas depend on namas for being experienced, but not (with some > exceptions) for their arising. As I see it, the dictum in the 'sheaves > of reeds' sutta refers to the experiencing of rupas, not to their arising. > > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't find that in the sutta, Jon. ====================== With metta, Howard #63639 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:20 pm Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Swee Boon, ---------------------- SB: > It must be possible to condition the mind such that anger and aversion is reduced or eliminated, otherwise there would be no release from anger and aversion. Is that agreeable with you? ----------------------- I think you might be referring to the mind in a conventional way. That is, as a continually existing organ that behaves sometimes in one way and sometimes in another. When understood in that way, the mind can, of course, be trained to have less anger. For our discussions, however, we need to understand the mind in an Abhidhamma way - as the presently arisen citta (and cetasikas). It is too late to predetermine this kind of mind because it has already arisen, and it is too late to change its nature because, before we can try, it has already fallen away. ----------------------- SB: > As to the mechanisms of conditioning the mind such that anger and aversion is reduced or eliminated, I will ask you again when you have become an expert. ------------------------ I am not looking for any kind of mechanism; my interest lies in understanding the presently arisen reality. So I would be happy to continue this discussion with you, or with anyone else. I still don't know your current understanding of the "control" issue. I don't know if you see a possibility (let alone a need) for making the mind less angry. Ken H #63640 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/23/06 6:25:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Now, the rupas of the rocks on the moon are therefore dukkha, but never > upadana khandha (unless we happen to visit the moon). > ===================== What *are* the rupas of the rocks on the moon? Hardnesses hiding out 238, 000 or so miles away from us? Hardnesses constantly arising and ceasing "out there"? Are there rupas "in" those rocks other than hardnesses? Are there (very cold) heat rupas arising and ceasing "there"? Are there cohesion rupas in those rocks? Is that whole picture not just a *bit* odd, Sarah, if taken literally without according any reality to the rocks themselves? Are these alleged external hardnesses and other external rupas theory-competition for the molecules and atoms and subatomic particles of chemistry and physics? It would seem so. Are the "science particles" mere (useful) concept and story, but the external rupas realities? Also, as far as clinging to those rupas (or not), there are astronauts who came across moon rocks and even brought some back. Do they or did they cling to the rupas "in those rocks"? What does it mean to cling to a rupa? Isn't it really clinging to sensations and ideas? Could those astronauts possibly cling to the rock rupas? Which rupas would they cling to? The hardnesses? The coldnesses? The cohesions? Or, if they cling to anything at all, is it not a clinging to the remembered view of the ground, the horizon, and the beautiful blue earth in the lunar heavens, and a fond recollection of the thinking that went on at the time - the marveling over where they were and what they were doing, and the pleasantness that accompanies all this recollection? Was not all the clinging an internal matter? Is not all clinging a clinging to sensations, emotions, and ideas? Is the Dhamma a competitor to the sciences of biology, psychology, chemistry, physics, and astronomy, or is it a phenomenological theory and practice for the awakening and liberating of sentient beings? (Guess which is my take! ;-) With metta, Howard P.S. This post is full of rhetorical questions, and no reply is actually expected. It was just my way of "thinking out loud" to give some sort of a clearer idea of "where I am coming from" on all this. It is not intended as a challenge to anyone, but is intended only to attempt to make my own perspective less murky to others. It was an attempt to let you all look a bit "inside my head". (Frightening, huh? LOLOL!) #63641 From: "kanchaa" Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ten Parmitas! kanchuu2003 Dear Nina, We have a misunderstanding.. I thought you are on a holiday and would be back after a week but checking the mails after a week, I discovered that you are out for a holiday this week.. Please send me a message once you are back. Then we could start Ten Parimitas one by one.. Sincerely, Kanchuu #63642 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:20 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd As we have seen, confidence in wholesomeness (saddhå), shame (hiri), fear of blame (ottappa) and contentment are among the proximate causes of the abstinences. When there is contentment or fewness of wishes there are favourable conditions for observing morality. As regards abstinence from wrong livelihood for laymen, we read in the Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Chapter XVIII, § 7) about five kinds of trades laymen should abstain from: * "Monks, these five trades ought not to be plied by a lay-disciple. What five? Trade in weapons, trade in human beings, trade in flesh, trade in spirits and trade in poison. Verily, monks, these five trades ought not to be plied by a laydisciple." * As to trade in flesh, the commentary (Manorathapúraùi) explains: “He breeds and sells pigs, deer, etc.” It is also wrong livelihood to receive bribes for services which are one’s duty to perform, or bribes for something one ought not to do. There is also wrong livelihood for monks. The monk should not try to obtain the requisites of robes, almsfood, dwelling and medicine with unlawful means, such as by way of hinting or talking in a clever way. He should not disparage others in order to obtain gain and honour(1). The monk’s life should be a life of contentment with little. If he realizes that the observance of the Vinaya should not be separated from the development of right understanding he will be able to lead a life of purity. *** 1) See Visuddhimagga I, 60 and following. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63643 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The coin merchant simile (Sarah) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > S: I know it's a bit confusing. I think of sanna as just marking and > then > > citta as experiencing everything. But, of course, sanna arises with > every > > single citta and marks everything too. > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understood sa~n~na as a two-part operation: 1) initial marking > that > enables future recognition, and 2) subsequent recognition. > --------------------------------------------------- .... S: Yes, it 'marks' and 'recognizes' the object. Of course, these characteristics and functions occur whenever sanna arises. It recognizes and marks the object and then it can be recognized again later and so on. ... <..> > > S: Yes, I've heard her say two or three times that she doesn't find it > > very helpful for the reason above - that citta and sanna mark every > object > > and so we get the child and villager mixed up as you suggested too. > Howard > > also said recently he didn't find it so helpful. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't recall having said that, but that is indeed my > evaluation. ..... S: You made a passing comment to someone about finding it not relevant culturally or something along those lines. Of course, we can refer to a child, a New-Yorker and a financial analyst if that helps:-) Metta, Sarah ======= #63644 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Robes of Bhikkhu sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon (& Leo), I like your kind replies to Leo: --- nidive wrote: L:> > What do you mean by fabricated? Any cloth or fabric is fabricated, > > the same with bowls. ... SB:> The all that is fabricated refers to the five clingable-aggregates: > the clingable-aggregate of material form, the clingable-aggregate of > feeling, the clingable-aggregate of perception, the clingable- > aggregate of mental formations and the clingable-aggregate of > consciousness. > > They are fabricated because they arise with a cause, and having > arisen, they are subject to dissolution. .... S :-) An interesting discussion on the meaning of 'fabricated'! I've always been a bit puzzled by it as a translation for sankhara dhammas, because I think of 'fabricated' as meaning 'constructed' or 'invented' rather than conditioned or formed up. What do you think? Howard or others may have ideas too. As for fabric being fabricated, Leo, I don't think this would work in English:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #63645 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ten Parmitas! sarahprocter... Dear Kanchuu, I know Nina is very keen to have a discussion on the paramis with you because she particularly asked me to draw any posts from you on the topic to her attention on return. Perhaps you might start with selecting an extract on the first parami (dana) from any source and asking any questions for her to see on her return or for others to start discussing first. You might like to look at the chapter on dana in her translation of 'The Perfections' or under 'Generosity' in 'useful posts'. Also, B.Bodhi's translation of the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka (on-line) contains a wealth of good detail on the Parami. If you (or someone else) would like to go through this text quoting short extracts (one paragraph at a time) for discussion, that would be helpful for everyone, I think. Metta, Sarah --- kanchaa wrote: > Dear Nina, > > We have a misunderstanding.. I thought you are on a holiday and would > be back after a week but checking the mails after a week, I discovered > that you are out for a holiday this week.. > > Please send me a message once you are back. Then we could start Ten > Parimitas one by one.. #63646 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon,(Han*) --- nidive wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > S: When you say 'a car is real', what do you mean by this, if I may > > ask? I think we can say that we take 'people, trees and cars' for > > 'atta', for 'wholes' rather than appreciating that only namas and > > rupas arise and fall away. > SB:> What is real? Form that is anicca, dukkha and anatta is real. .... S: By form, do you mean rupa? If so, I agree that form (rupa) is anicca, dukkha and anatta. Is a car a rupa? .... > > > >S: If your heart is not real, you wouldn't be posting messages here. > > .... > > S: Again, isn't what we take for heart really made up of many > > different rupas? <...> ... SB:> What exists? Form that is anicca, dukkha and anatta exists. .... S: Same question back to you. When you refer to my heart, are you referring to a rupa or an idea of a collection of rupas? ***** <...> > >S: Do you see any significance in the description of the 1st Noble > > Truth of dukkha when it says 'in short, the 5 *upadana* khandhas > > are dukkha'? I'm just curious about this point. > SB:> I have thought of this before. Some people might misconstrue this to > mean that the five aggregates are not dukkha if there is no clinging. > But this would contradict the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta where the Buddha > referred to the five khandhas (without referring to the word upadana) > as anicca, dukkha and anatta. .... S: I agree with you (that it can be misconstrued to suggest some khandhas are not dukkha). All khandhas are dukkha, but only those that are clung to cause problems. For an arahant, there's no problem on account of the khandhas which are dukkha because there's no clinging. .... > SB:> Therefore, the *upadana* in the term "upadana khandhas" in the First > Noble Truth is to emphasize the fact that the five khandhas can be > clung on to, and if clung on to, propagates the whole chain of > dependent co-arising in forward order, that is, it propagates the > whole chain of dukkha back to the five khandhas again. .... S: Yes, I agree. I'd go a little further and say it refers to what is clung to at this moment. .... > > It is interesting to note that the Buddha defines birth in dependent > co-arising as the "appearance of aggregates". .... S: I'm not quite sure what the significance of this is. If there is no clinging, there's no more birth, no more "appearance of aggregates"? I wonder what the Pali is anyone? *Perhaps Han or someone has some idea? It's helpful talking to you Swee Boon as I know you've considered these areas a lot. Metta, Sarah ====== #63647 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > S: I understand that for any kind of bhavana -- samatha or vipassana > > bhavana -- panna is necessary from the start. > > How do you define panna? ... S: Right Understanding or wisdom. With any kind of bhavana (development), there has to be panna arising. Otherwise, it's not bhavana. .... > > Is it not possible to attain the jhanas without knowledge of the > Dhamma? .... S: Yes. Before people heard the Buddha's teachings, they attained jhana. Jhana is not confined to Buddhists (unless one is talking about lokuttara jhana). So the panna that arises with the development of samatha and jhana has a different object to the panna which arises in the development of satipatthana. In the first case, it's a concept or sign (with a couple of arupa jhana exceptions). In the latter case, it's a nama or rupa. I think this is an important point to keep discussing. So please share any further comments or questions on it. Metta, Sarah ======= #63648 From: connie Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:30 am Subject: not fond of foul nichiconn We know who we are! From the commentary on the verses of Therii Sundarii-Nandaa: << "Youth is controlled by old age, beauty is to be considered as unclean, and even good health has disease as its end. Life ends up in death. >> It goes on with a great "contemplation of the unpleasant" story and just when you're all grossed out, "Your ears like waving swings have lost their colour" makes you smile until "You, (snip) have become full of impurities like arisen defects leading to a slaughterhouse" and already "as loathsome as a cemetery that [only] the ignorant delight in". That derelict vigilance! but another one, from nigrodhamiga jataka (www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j1/j1015.htm): <<"My lord and master," she replied, "the body is filled with two-and-thirty component parts. Wherefore should it be adorned? This bodily frame is not of angelic or archangelic mould; it is not made of gold, jewels, or yellow sandal-wood; it takes not its birth from the womb of lotus-flowers, white or red or blue; it is not filled with any immortal balsam. Nay, it is bred of corruption, and born of mortal parents; the qualities that mark it are the wearing and wasting away, the decay and destruction of the merely transient; it is fated to swell a graveyard, and is devoted to lusts; it is the source of sorrow, and the occasion of lamentation; it is the abode of all diseases, and the repository of the workings of Karma. Foul within,--it is always excreting. Yea, as all the world can see, its end is death, passing to the charnel-house, there to be the dwelling-place of worms* [147]. What should I achieve, my bridegroom, by tricking out this body? Would not its adornment be like decorating the outside of a close-stool?">> *missing 'graphics' here, alas! but makes for a bit more pleasant shower that way? peace, connie #63649 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:30 pm Subject: Noble Awareness ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to be Released into the very End of Suffering? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, these Four Foundations of Awareness, when firmly established by development and cultivation, are both Noble and Liberating! They lead one out into the complete elimination of all Suffering. What four? Here, Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu lives & dwells, aware & clearly comprehending, while continuously contemplating & reflecting upon: 1: The Body merely as a decaying & ownerless Formation.. 2: The Feelings just as conditioned Responses fading away.. 3: The Mind only as a set of ingrained & routine Mentalities.. 4: Any Phenomenon simply as a constructed mental Appearance.. Thereby removing yearning, urge, envy & frustration rooted in this world.. These Four Foundations of Awareness, Bhikkhus, when firmly established by development and cultivation, are both Noble and Releasing! They guide one to the Exit, to the Escape by an absolute destruction of all Suffering! Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 166-7] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 17 Noble... Details On Foundations of Awareness (Sati): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63650 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The coin merchant simile (Sarah) sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Phil and Sarah, > > I think consciousness in this simile refers to yoniso manasikaara (wise > attention). ... S: I don't think so. See Vism X1V, 3 again. Cognizing is vijaanana. "..perception is only the mere perceiving of an object as, say, 'blue' or 'yellow'.....Consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it brings about the penetration of its characteristics.....Understanding knows the object in the way already stated.......and it brings about, by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path." "....The child without discretion knows merely that the coins are figured and ornamented, long, square or round.......And the villager knows that they are figured and ornamented, etc, and that they are reckoned as valuable.....but he does not know distinctions as 'This one is genuine, this is fals, this is half-value.' The money-changer knows all those kinds.......etc" ..... S: Of course, when there's understanding, there's also yoniso manasikara and sati. Nina may have added more from the Tiika. ... >When combined with sati it is mindfulness. .... S: Mindfulness (sati) arises with all wholesome consciousness. So, whenever there's yoniso manasikara, there's sati. Same for understanding. However, there can be sati without understanding. .... >Otherwise it is > just keeping your eye on the ball. Still very useful and relatively > rare. You might call it presence or wakefulness. It is addressing > reality rather than story or speculation, but there isn't understanding > (pa~n~naa) yet. .... S: I think that every citta which arises (or vinnana) 'knows' in the sense of 'experiences' its object just as it is. However, it doesn't understand or be aware. These are the functions of panna and sati. Even when it's an akusala citta arising, it 'knows' or experiences its object or characteristic exactly. Let me know if you still disagree, in which case, perhaps we can look at Nina's Tiika translation again. Metta, Sarah ======== #63651 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:44 am Subject: Re: not fond of foul scottduncan2 c: "...Foul within,--it is always excreting. Yea, as all the world can see, its end is death, passing to the charnel-house, there to be the dwelling-place of worms* [147]. What should I achieve, my bridegroom, by tricking out this body? Would not its adornment be like decorating the outside of a close-stool?" I'll cancel the makeover immediately and sign up for a fleet enema instead... Scott. #63652 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:25 am Subject: [dsg] Cars are upadana-khandhas pgradinarov Dear Sarah and All, > Now, the rupas of the rocks on the moon are therefore dukkha, but never > upadana khandha (unless we happen to visit the moon). Cars beyond doubt are upadana-khandhas, otherwise no one would buy them. They are outside the 12 links of the internal dependent origination, but nevertheless are not entirely under the sway of the natural necessity, or the external dependent origination; because we have lots of reified namas incorporated in the design and the functional dynamics of a car, even khandhas that can be considered nirmana-cittas (artificial intelligence) like the board-computer and GPS. Kindest regards, Plamen Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:58 am Subject: On what Citta is the Universe Dependent? pgradinarov Dear Swee Boon and All, > The other dependency of "name-&-form depends on consciousness" does > not describe the 'experiencing' process. True, it rather describes the reincarnation process (which is only a wishful soteriological thinking not confirmed by science and regular experience), and in this sense it describes the form and name as pancakkhandha, not the rise of the external rupas which can well be outside any pancakkhandha and hence independent of any namas (or citta). If the extrenal universe is dependent on consciousness, I am very curious to learn on what particular citta is the Big Bang contingent. I would also appreciate avoiding answers of the type: On the citta of the evolutionary cosmologists or on the collective bhavanga-citta of all sentient beings left over after the Brahma palaces have been destroyed here and in every hiliocosm. Kindest regards, Plamen #63654 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Jon, just like "panna", "kusala" is one of those Pali words you often >abuse. What you wrote above doesn't have any meaning because you are >not properly defining "kusala" or "samatha". Where is your textual >support? Where is your reasoning? Remember, I am not convinced or >impressed by the use of Pali words, especially when I see them as >being misused. > [OK, I shall add 'serial word-abuser' to the list of my posting defects to be worked on ;-))] Kusala means 'wholesome' and references to consciousness (or its accompanying mental factors) of that quality. Samatha (tranquility, serenity) is one kind of kusala consciousness, characterised by the mental factor of passadhi (calm). At higher levels the mental factor of concentration (samadhi) becomes more prominent, and this may lead to absorption of the mental object and, eventually, jhana consciousness. The point I was making in my previous message is that concentration can be developed without it being the calm that is the kusala factor of samatha. When the suttas talk about concentration (samadhi) they of course mean kusala samadhi, but samadhi can only be kusala if it accompanies a kusala mind-state. So unless there is understanding of how there may be kusala when the object of consciousness is a kasina, there cannot the the development of samatha. (I can add further detail on the Pali terms samatha and kusala if you'd like. I'm just trying to walk the fine line between your twin criteria avoiding of too much detail yet being sufficiently specific. Of course, if you'd been reading my posts over the years you'd be quite familiar with these terms ;-)) >>So I'd be wary of simply following a set of instructions such as >>these. >> > >Well, of course you can be wary of following anything you feel; >however, with all due respect, I would rather follow the instructions >of a respected bhikkhu (of Mexican descent), rather than a retired >attorney. Who do you think is the most credible dhamma expert? What >should the jury conclude? ;-)) > Correction: a respected ex-bhikkhu. According to the bio you have supplied, the author disrobed in May 2004, after spending about 6 years as a bhikkhu. May I suggest: consider, rather than 'follow'. That is to say, consider by reference to what is in the texts. The occupation or livelihood of the speaker is not that relevant. Jon #63655 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >No, I just read it as stating that the attainment of jhana by >householders is possible, that's all. The Buddha was giving the >householders something more that they could do rather than just >giving requisites. He cared for their well-being, he wasn't just >greedy to get things (of course). If they should choose to follow >this extra bit of advice or not is up to them. I was just some >advice, not a commandment. > Your comments on the sutta (AN V, 176) come as a pleasant surprise. We are not so far apart on it after all. Our main difference seems to be the extent to which Mr/Ms Average Lay-follower should think that he/she has the same chance of attaining jhana as the 500 lay-followers in the sutta, in other words, the relative ease or difficulty with which jhana may be attained. Now if I happen to think that the attainment of jhana is more difficult (much more difficult, even) than you do, that doesn't make me anti-jhana , surely ;-)). After all, your view could be an unduly optimistic one. Who is to say whose view is the more realistic? (Note: a rhetorical question not a leading one) >Even Sariputta saw it as such and told the benefits of such jhana >practice, in order to let them know the benefits. He didn't >say, "Oh yes, you must do this!" I think the message is pretty >clear. I'm not sure why we are over-anaylzing this thing to >death! ;-)) > > Perhaps because we assumed our views must be quite different ;-)), ;-)) >If so, what is the significance of the fact that the lay followers >in question were already practised in giving support to the Sangha >of monks, since this was specifically mentioned by the Buddha in >giving his advice to them? > >This question is moot in relation to my previous answer. > But the words do have some relevance for us, I think. For one, the successful development of jhana requires highly developed dana and sila. Jon #63656 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:49 am Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Sarah, > S: By form, do you mean rupa? If so, I agree that form (rupa) is > anicca, dukkha and anatta. Is a car a rupa? Yes, I mean rupa. > S: Again, isn't what we take for heart really made up of many > different rupas? <...> A car and a heart are made up of many different rupas. > S: Same question back to you. When you refer to my heart, are you > referring to a rupa or an idea of a collection of rupas? I won't say its an idea. It's just composed of many different rupas, not just one single rupa. > > It is interesting to note that the Buddha defines birth in > > dependent co-arising as the "appearance of aggregates". > .... > S: I'm not quite sure what the significance of this is. If there is > no clinging, there's no more birth, no more "appearance of > aggregates"? I wonder what the Pali is anyone? *Perhaps Han or > someone has some idea? I checked up the Pali in www.metta.lk. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta2/ 12-Abhisamaya-Samyutta/01-Buddhavaggo-p.html There is this line that contains the word jati (jati means birth right?) and in that line there is this word khandhanau (I don't know what this means, but it must be related to the word khandhas == aggregates). The reference translated work at www.accesstoinsight.org is: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html If there is no more further birth for an arahant, surely this means that there is no more further appearance of the five khandhas for that arahant, doesn't it? Regards, Swee Boon #63657 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:44 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner - Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas philofillet Hello Han, Nina, Sarah and others > (i ) Why are pliancy of cetasikas and of citta the > opponents of wrong view and conceit? > > They have the characteristic of suppressing the > rigidity of mental factors and of consciousness > (kaaya-citta thaddhataasama lakkhanaa); As Nina said you wrote very well about this topic, Han, with very thorough understanding. For some reason, however, I found (I have found) that these six pairs of beautiful cetasikas are the first aspect of Abhidhamma that I have ever had consistent doubts about, ever since I first read about them a couple of years ago. Now I must emphasize that when there are doubts about Abhidhamma, it is a reflection of our own ignorance, the inability of our understand to pentrate to the depths of Abhidhamma rather than any flaw in Abhidhamma, which is of course flawless. Nevertheless I have always found it difficult to accept these six pairs. Pliancy, and proficency, and the others. as cetasikas, active in the citta stream like multivitamins in the bloodstream performing this and that wholesome function. I couldn't figure out why but was thinking about it a lot. Today waiting for a train I glanced at a notebook and found this "alobha doesn't overrate the attractive object, adosa doesn't underrate the disagreeable object" or words to that effect, that I had pulled from "Roots of Good and Evil" the very good Wheel Publication by N. Thera, from a commentary. So then I realized that at this point for me I see the three kusala roots of alobha, adosa and amoha at work doing what the ancient texts themselves teach is done by the six pairs. So rather than a cetasika that is the pliancy/non-rigidity of a citta, for example, I see adosa and alobha and amoha along with other wholesome cetasikas conditioning the citta stream in a way that makes for less rigidity, without a necessary role for a cetasika that is non-rigidity in and of itself. But that is a simplistic view and my inability to appreciate these six pairs is a reflection of ignorance, obviously, rather than any flaw in Abhidhamma. Well, no kidding. But I was happy to figure out what was bugging me about them. Phil #63658 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nidive Hi Sarah, > S: Yes. Before people heard the Buddha's teachings, they attained > jhana. Jhana is not confined to Buddhists (unless one is talking > about lokuttara jhana). So the panna that arises with the > development of samatha and jhana has a different object to the > panna which arises in the development of satipatthana. In the first > case, it's a concept or sign (with a couple of arupa jhana > exceptions). In the latter case, it's a nama or rupa. In that case, my definition of panna is the latter: that is, the panna which arises in the development of satipatthana. By the way, why can't satipatthana take on a concept? Regards, Swee Boon #63659 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >Jon, just like "panna", "kusala" is one of those Pali words you often > >abuse. What you wrote above doesn't have any meaning because you are > >not properly defining "kusala" or "samatha". Where is your textual > >support? Where is your reasoning? Remember, I am not convinced or > >impressed by the use of Pali words, especially when I see them as > >being misused. > > > > [OK, I shall add 'serial word-abuser' to the list of my posting defects > to be worked on ;-))] Hmmm...I'm not quite sure how to take this comment. What I wrote wasn't really meant as a joke nor do I think it should be treated as a joke. I would hope that you could take some constructive criticism without turning it into some sort of joke. > > Kusala means 'wholesome' and references to consciousness (or its > accompanying mental factors) of that quality. Yes, I know that kusala mean wholesome, but there are many different degrees of wholesome, just as there are many different degrees of wisdom (I was glad to see that Nina agreed with me on the importance of being careful with the words we use). Language, by its very nature, is imperfect; and some words are more imperfect than other words. And Pali translated into English presents a great variety of problems. To use a word and think that it completely covers the meaning and that everyone should be in agreement, is a mistake in my view. > > Samatha (tranquility, serenity) is one kind of kusala consciousness, > characterised by the mental factor of passadhi (calm). At higher levels > the mental factor of concentration (samadhi) becomes more prominent, and > this may lead to absorption of the mental object and, eventually, jhana > consciousness. Agreed. > > The point I was making in my previous message is that concentration can > be developed without it being the calm that is the kusala factor of > samatha. Here, I either don't agree or I don't follow your meaning (I can't tell which ;-)). First, concentration cannot be developed without calm. It is impossible to be agitated and highly concentrated- they contradict each other. Second, it is possible to be calm and concentrated and yet it isn't kusala; such as an expert sniper aiming his gun at a potential, living target. When the suttas talk about concentration (samadhi) they of > course mean kusala samadhi, but samadhi can only be kusala if it > accompanies a kusala mind-state. > > So unless there is understanding of how there may be kusala when the > object of consciousness is a kasina, there cannot the the development of > samatha. Focusing on a kasina can be kusala is there is calm and non- attachment present. Do you not agree with the Vism.? Have you practiced kasina meditation in the past or are you speaking theoretically? > > (I can add further detail on the Pali terms samatha and kusala if you'd > like. I'm just trying to walk the fine line between your twin criteria > avoiding of too much detail yet being sufficiently specific. Of course, > if you'd been reading my posts over the years you'd be quite familiar > with these terms ;-)) > > >>So I'd be wary of simply following a set of instructions such as > >>these. > >> > > > >Well, of course you can be wary of following anything you feel; > >however, with all due respect, I would rather follow the instructions > >of a respected bhikkhu (of Mexican descent), rather than a retired > >attorney. Who do you think is the most credible dhamma expert? What > >should the jury conclude? ;-)) > > > > Correction: a respected ex-bhikkhu. According to the bio you have > supplied, the author disrobed in May 2004, after spending about 6 years > as a bhikkhu. Yes, I am aware of that; I provided the bio after all.;-)) Regardless of his disrobing, he was still a bhikkhu when he wrote the article, and I view a bhikkhu as more of an expert on the dhamma than a layperson. I know that this doesn't suit well with the KS camp since KS isn't a bhikkhuni, but that's the way I feel. You can call it my personal bias if you like. ;-)) > > May I suggest: consider, rather than 'follow'. That is to say, > consider by reference to what is in the texts. The occupation or > livelihood of the speaker is not that relevant. I disagree. A bhikkhu has practical knowledge while a layperson usually has predominately theoretical knowledge with limited practical knowledge. > > Jon > Metta, James #63660 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:33 am Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self nidive Hi Ken H, > I am not looking for any kind of mechanism; my interest lies in > understanding the presently arisen reality. If that is the case, then may I ask *how* do you understand the presently arisen reality? > I don't know if you see a possibility (let alone a need) for making > the mind less angry. If the mind cannot be conditioned to be less angry, then we are not following the Buddha's instructions. Regards, Swee Boon #63661 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >No, I just read it as stating that the attainment of jhana by > >householders is possible, that's all. The Buddha was giving the > >householders something more that they could do rather than just > >giving requisites. He cared for their well-being, he wasn't just > >greedy to get things (of course). If they should choose to follow > >this extra bit of advice or not is up to them. I was just some > >advice, not a commandment. > > > > Your comments on the sutta (AN V, 176) come as a pleasant surprise. We > are not so far apart on it after all. Our main difference seems to be > the extent to which Mr/Ms Average Lay-follower should think that he/she > has the same chance of attaining jhana as the 500 lay-followers in the > sutta, in other words, the relative ease or difficulty with which jhana > may be attained. > > Now if I happen to think that the attainment of jhana is more difficult > (much more difficult, even) than you do, that doesn't make me anti- jhana > , surely ;-)). Since when has this discussion involved the relative ease or difficulty of attaining jhana?? I have never said that attaining jhana was easy or non-difficult- it is very difficult. I have practiced meditation for years and I have never even come close to attaining jhana (but of course I wasn't trying). This is completely beside the point. The issue has been if it is possible for a householder to attain jhana and if the Buddha taught such a thing. If you agree that it is possible and that the Buddha did teach that, then there is nothing left to discuss. As far as how difficult you or I think it is, that is beside the point. Our knowledge is only theoretical. After all, your view could be an unduly optimistic one. > Who is to say whose view is the more realistic? (Note: a rhetorical > question not a leading one) > > >Even Sariputta saw it as such and told the benefits of such jhana > >practice, in order to let them know the benefits. He didn't > >say, "Oh yes, you must do this!" I think the message is pretty > >clear. I'm not sure why we are over-anaylzing this thing to > >death! ;-)) > > > > > > Perhaps because we assumed our views must be quite different ;- )), ;-)) > > >If so, what is the significance of the fact that the lay followers > >in question were already practised in giving support to the Sangha > >of monks, since this was specifically mentioned by the Buddha in > >giving his advice to them? > > > >This question is moot in relation to my previous answer. > > > > But the words do have some relevance for us, I think. For one, the > successful development of jhana requires highly developed dana and sila. I'm not sure what you mean by "highly developed", but jhana does require sila to be present as well (I haven't really read about dana). > > Jon > Metta, James #63662 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:20 am Subject: Re: On what Citta is the Universe Dependent? nidive Hi Plamen Gradinarov, > True, it rather describes the reincarnation process ,and in this > sense it describes the form and name as pancakkhandha, not the rise > of the external rupas which can well be outside any pancakkhandha > and hence independent of any namas (or citta). If the external > universe is dependent on consciousness, I am very curious to learn > on what particular citta is the Big Bang contingent. I can't give you an answer. This is beyond my knowledge. I think it is valid to say that rupas depend on other rupas for their arising. There is an interesting article by the late Ledi Sayadaw, the Manual of Cosmic Order, that may provide some food for thought. http://www.triplegem.plus.com/ledinyma.htm Regards, Swee Boon #63663 From: "kanchaa" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ten Parmitas! kanchuu2003 Dear Sarah, Thank you for your support. I dont have much litrature about it. I am just refering the site http://www.zolag.co.uk/Perfections.html, the one that you recommended last time. If you know any other sites that could be helpful, please forward it to me.. Sincerely, Nitesh #63664 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 9/25/06 2:16:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > : "...Foul within,--it is always excreting. Yea, as all the world > can see, its end is death, passing to the charnel-house, there to be > the dwelling-place of worms* [147]. What should I achieve, my > bridegroom, by tricking out this body? Would not its adornment be like > decorating the outside of a close-stool?" > > I'll cancel the makeover immediately and sign up for a fleet enema > instead... > > Scott. > ======================= LOL! My opinion on this sort of teaching: It is a kind of shock therapy for those who are overwhelmed by sensual cravings. It is also a dangerous therapy that can easily lead to aversion instead of disenchantment, and it is best left to a buddha or arahant who will know exactly how to apply such therapy to a particular individual successfully. With metta, Howard #63665 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner - Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your thoughtful note. It is very true that alobha, adosa, amoha are the main wholesome roots that will really help us out of this samsara. Venerable Sariputta, when asked by the wanderer Jambukhaadaka what is Nibbana, replied that the destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion is called Nibbana. (SN 38.1) The six pairs of beautiful cetasikas belong to 19 beautiful cetasikas. In the Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma, Dr. Mehm Tin Mon wrote that the 19 beautiful cetasikas become prominent in people who regularly perform the act of alms-giving, morality and meditation. As they associate together in all sobhana cittas, they are known as sobhana-saadhaarana cetasikas. Therefore, the six pairs of beautiful cetasikas may be considered as very useful adjuncts to the main wholesome roots. They are indeed like multivitamins that one might take together with the main medicine for any specific illness. Besides, if you look at what they are opponents of, you may find their usefulness. (1) The tranquility of cetasikas and citta are the opponents of distraction (uddhacca). (2) The lightness of cetasikas and citta are the opponents of sloth and torpor (thina-middha). (3) The pliancy of cetasikas and citta are the opponents of wrong view (ditthi) and conceit (maana). (4) The wieldiness of cetasikas and citta are the opponents of sensuous desire (kamacchanda). (5) The proficiency of cetasikas and of citta are the opponents of lack of faith (asaddhaa). (6) The uprightness of cetasikas and of citta are the opponents of deception (maayaa) and craftiness (saatheya). But one may not have to do any specific activities to develop just these six pairs of beautiful cetasikas. As Dr. Mehm Tin Mon has written, if one does regularly, daana, siila, and bhaavanaa, (or silla, samaadhi, and pannaa) all 19 beautiful cetasikas and pannindriya can be developed. Respectfully, Han --- Phil wrote: > Hello Han, Nina, Sarah and others > > > > (i ) Why are pliancy of cetasikas and of citta the > > opponents of wrong view and conceit? #63666 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:38 pm Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Swee Boon, ----------------- KH: > > I am not looking for any kind of mechanism; my interest lies in understanding the presently arisen reality. > > SB: > If that is the case, then may I ask *how* do you understand the presently arisen reality? ----------------- Right understanding of a presently arisen reality is the function of panna. Like all conditioned dhammas, panna arises when the conditions for its arising are in place. ----------------------------- KH: > > I don't know if you see a possibility (let alone a need) for making the mind less angry. > > SB: > If the mind cannot be conditioned to be less angry, then we are not following the Buddha's instructions. ----------------------------- What did you think of my interpretation of "mind" (as a fleeting paramattha dhamma)? Can anything make that sort of mind less angry than it is? Ken H #63667 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul scottduncan2 Dear Howard, H: "LOL!" I've read all about the above sort of behaviour... H: "My opinion on this sort of teaching: It is a kind of shock therapy for those who are overwhelmed by sensual cravings. It is also a dangerous therapy that can easily lead to aversion instead of disenchantment, and it is best left to a buddha or arahant who will know exactly how to apply such therapy to a particular individual successfully." Makes sense. With loving kindness, Scott. #63668 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The coin merchant simile (Sarah) lbidd2 Hi Sarah, S: "I think that every citta which arises (or vinnana) 'knows' in the sense of 'experiences' its object just as it is." L: Exactly! Phil described it as 'bare attention'. In everyday consciousness we don't notice this because it is covered over by ignorance. But as yoniso manasikara it is very noticeable. This is a very important stepping stone to panna, and, as you say, it is always available because it is every consciousness. Nyanaponika Thera also described it as 'bare attention'. It is attending to (experiencing) presently arising reality, but not quite understanding it. Larry #63669 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The coin merchant simile (Sarah) philofillet Hi Larry (and Sarah and Jon at end) > S: "I think that every citta which arises (or vinnana) 'knows' in the > sense > of 'experiences' its object just as it is." > > L: Exactly! Phil described it as 'bare attention'. In everyday > consciousness we don't notice this because it is covered over by > ignorance. But as yoniso manasikara it is very noticeable. This is a > very important stepping stone to panna, and, as you say, it is always > available because it is every consciousness. Nyanaponika Thera also > described it as 'bare attention'. It is attending to (experiencing) > presently arising reality, but not quite understanding it. Actually, I think I said bare "cognition" rather than attention, which I would have though was different. Cognition with every object that arises, but not attention, something like that. This is the sort of case where we best get right to the Pali, I guess. (Note, James, and other people who are skeptical about the value of using Pali words.) So cognition as vinnana and attention as manasikara? ...sorry I haven't read your exchange with Sarah so am probably just covering the same ground. Phil p.s Sarah and Jon, I am looking forward to considering our discussion thread but there are two more I want to post today - back to you in a few days, or when Nina is back maybe. Nice to have her looking over our shoulder... :) #63670 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:56 pm Subject: Re: The coin merchant simile (Sarah) philofillet Hi again Larry > > This is a > > very important stepping stone to panna, and, as you say, it is always > > available because it is every consciousness. Nyanaponika Thera also > > described it as 'bare attention'. It is attending to (experiencing) > > presently arising reality, but not quite understanding it. > > > Actually, I think I said bare "cognition" rather than attention, > which I would have though was different. Cognition with every object > that arises, but not attention, something like that. Slef-correction -as you mention above, there is manasikara (attention) with every moment of consciousness. This is one area where I sometimes sense a gap (due to ignorance) between the Abhidhamma treatment of manasikara and the suttanta treatment. In the suttas, it seems to have such a dramatic role, being the factor that is taught to be (if I recaall correctly) the singlemost important in cutting short proliferation of akusala. It's hard to ascribe that role to a universal cetasika that is tucked in there somewhere quietly doing its job... Phil #63671 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:13 pm Subject: Re: some points on art philofillet Hi James (and Leo and Swee Boon) I came across a sutta this morning that made me think of this post.It's SN 12:66. I imagine you already know it. "Whatever ascetics and brahmins at present (and past and future) regard that in the world with a pleasant and agreeable nature as permanent, as happiness, as self, as healthy, as secure: they are naturing craving. In nurturing craving, they are naurturing acquisition. In nurturing acquisition theya re nurturing suffering. In nurturting suffering, they are... (well you get the idea) suppose, bhikkkhus, there was a bronze cup of a beverage having a fine colour, aroma and taste, but it was mixed with poison. Then a man would come along, oppressed and afflicted by the heat, tired, parched and thirsty. They would tell him: 'Good man, this beverage in the bronze cup has a fine colour, aroma and taste, but it is mixed with poison. Drink it if you wish, If you drink it, it will gratify you with its colour, aroma and taste, but..(well you get the idea) (But the wise man reflects) "I can quench my thirst with water, whey, porridge and soup, but I should not drink that beverage since to do so would lead to my harm and suffering for a long time." You know me, James. I drink quite readily of life's pleasures and beautiful things. It would be perverse and against the Buddha's teaching of the middle way to become strict and sour about sensual pleasures. But reflecting on suttas like the above also provides helpful reminders to help us keep balance, yeah? It's also interting to note how our interest in certain things that used to provide a lot of pleasure just kind of dwindles as we continue to enjoy the pleasure in question. If we starved ourselves of it in the belief that we were being wise and decisive the desire for the pleasure just germinates and gets stronger...in my case this has been the case with alcohol. I still enjoy it on occasion, but just finding less and less pleasure in it naturally and more and more sensitivity to the way even a little bit clouds clarity of mind the next day. If I cut it off cold turkey I would be less free from it rather than more free, I think. That's another topic, and it doesn't apply to all of life's pleasures. Anything that is akusala kamma patha cannot be approached in this way. Phil > To be a bit confessional on this topic, I have always had a problem > with the Buddha's teaching on revulsion of the body. This isn't > because I am overly lusty (though I have my moments ;-)) it is > because I view the human body as a work of art. I see great beauty > in the works of Michelangelo, Raphael, Da Vinci, and the Greek > masters. I also see great beauty in nature and really appreciate > the works of Van Gogh and Monet. > > I really do have somewhat of an eternal conflict with my love of art > and my love of the dhamma. I don't want to give either up- but I do > see a conflict. Art is sensual desire. Granted, it is a very high > and refined form of sensual desire, but it is sensual desire all the > same. > > But, often for me, art is what gets me through the day. > #63672 From: connie Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:39 pm Subject: Re: not fond of foul nichiconn Hi Howard, Scott, Maybe this one will sit better. peace, connie Illustrator, ch iii, The Thirty-Two-Fold Aspect (Dvatti"msakaara"m) 1. Now begins the meditation-subject (working-site) consisting of the Thirty-two-fold Aspect [of the body], which is a treatise on maintaining [concentration] in being, etc., by means of the [bodily] parts under Mindfulness Occupied With the Body (M. Sutta 119; Vis. Ch. viii). [38] When a clansman is already established in virtue and has purifed his means by the Training Precepts in the way stated, this [meditation subject] has for its purpose the purification of his ends and it has for its aim his maintaining profitable cognizance in being. It is never promulgated except after an Enlightened One's arising and is outside the province of any sectarians. It has been commended by the Blessed One in various ways in different Suttas thus 'Bhikkhus, when one idea is maintained in being and developed it leads to a great sense of urgency, to great benefit, to great safety from bondage, to great mindfulness and full awareness, to obtainment of knowledge and seeing, to a pleasant abiding here and now, to realization of the fruit of true-knowledge and deliverance. What is that one idea? It is mindfulness occupied with the body' (A.i.43). And thus 'Bhikkhus, they do not savour the deathless who do not savour mindfulness occupied with the body, they savour the deathless who savour mindfulness occupied with the body. They have not savoured the deathless [who have not savoured mindfulness occupied with the body], they have not savoured ... They have neglected ... They have not neglected ... They have missed ... They have found the deathless who have found mindfulness occupied with the body' (A.i.45). And it has been taught thus 'And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu maintain mindfulness occupied with the body in being? ... Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reviews this body up from the soles of the feet and down from the top of the hair and contained within the skin as full of many kinds of impurity thus: [] in this body there are head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin; flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidney; heart, liver, midriff, spleen, lights; bowels, entrails, gorge, dung; bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat; tears, grease, spittle, snot, oil-of-the-joints, urine' (M.iii.90) and [] 'brain in the head' (cf. Ps. i. 6-7), including 'brain' under bone-marrow in numerous contexts [in which this description appears]. So here is the commentary on the meaning of that [meditation subject]. 2. Herein, ] they are factually known. : in this, which is expressed thus 'up from the soles of the feet and down from the top of the hair and contained within the skin as full of many kinds of impurity'. : the physical frame; for it is the physical frame that is called 'body' (kaaya) because it is a conglomeration of impurity, since such vile (Kucchita) [things] as the head-hairs, etc., have it as their origin (AAYA). 3. Head-hairs, ... brain: these [things] beginning with head-hairs are thirty-two aspects (constituents) [of it]. The construction here should be understood in this way: In this body there are head-hairs, in this body there are body-hairs. 4. [39] What is expressed by that? It is that no one who searches earnestly throughout the whole of this fathom-long carcase, starting from the soles of the feet upwards, starting from the top of the hair downwards, and starting from the skin all round, ever sees even the minutest atom of pureness in it such as a pearl or a crystal or a beryl or aloes or sandalwood or saffron or camphor or talcum-powder, etc.; on the contrary, he sees nothing but various very malodorous offensive drab-looking sorts of impurity consisting of the head-hairs, body-hairs, and the rest. This is the commentary on the word-construction here, in the first place. #63673 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner - Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas philofillet Dear Han Thank you for the feedback. Very helpful. > The six pairs of beautiful cetasikas belong to 19 > beautiful cetasikas. In the Essence of Buddha > Abhidhamma, Dr. Mehm Tin Mon wrote that the 19 > beautiful cetasikas become prominent in people who > regularly perform the act of alms-giving, morality and > meditation. I think this is it - the beautiful cetasikas become more prominent, gradually, as we practice. I would add that moments of understanding dhammas to the degree where are capable also help to condition the development of the beautiful cetasikas, but of course the acts you mention above help to condition understanding of dhammas. (I am not sure about alms-giving, though. I have some problems or biases understanding it because of living in Japan, where there is a horrible amount of money involved in alms-giving, people buying better post-death destinations, university entrance exams success, that kind of thing. But this has nothing to do with the true teaching of the Buddha so it is a misunderstanding that I am confident I will overcome some day. As they associate together in all sobhana > cittas, they are known as sobhana-saadhaarana > cetasikas. Therefore, the six pairs of beautiful > cetasikas may be considered as very useful adjuncts to > the main wholesome roots. They are indeed like > multivitamins that one might take together with the > main medicine for any specific illness. Yes, and as long as we don't try to speed up the effectivenes of this bit or that bit of the multi-vitamin. Just let it do its wholesome work without thinking about it too much. > > Besides, if you look at what they are opponents of, > you may find their usefulness. > > (1) The tranquility of cetasikas and citta are the > opponents of distraction (uddhacca). > (2) The lightness of cetasikas and citta are the > opponents of sloth and torpor (thina-middha). > (3) The pliancy of cetasikas and citta are the > opponents of wrong view (ditthi) and conceit (maana). > (4) The wieldiness of cetasikas and citta are the > opponents of sensuous desire (kamacchanda). > (5) The proficiency of cetasikas and of citta are the > opponents of lack of faith (asaddhaa). > (6) The uprightness of cetasikas and of citta are the > opponents of deception (maayaa) and craftiness > (saatheya). OK. Again, I see the wholesome roots and other cetasikas performing here, but they are all together, of course. > But one may not have to do any specific activities to > develop just these six pairs of beautiful cetasikas. > As Dr. Mehm Tin Mon has written, if one does > regularly, daana, siila, and bhaavanaa, (or silla, > samaadhi, and pannaa) all 19 beautiful cetasikas and > pannindriya can be developed. Yes, we patiently follow the Buddha's teaching and the beautiful cetasikas may develop. This cannot be sped up. I remember when I first read Abhdihamma in Daily Life by Nina I was surprised that the beautiful cetasikas were in the back of the book. That's because I came from the approach to Buddhism that predominates in the west, putting an emphasis on fairly immediate awards in terms of becoming more wholesome, more loving, more generous. That's what people want. There is not as much of an emphasis on eradicating defilements. Defilements is a dirty word in the West, so to speak. So I wanted more wholesomeness, as soon as possible. Now I feel it is better to understand the defilements and the wholesomeness will be conditioned by that without needing to think *too* much about it. But in the case of your posts on the six pair of beautiful cetasikas I get refreshment and energy to study harder. Thanks. Phil #63674 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The coin merchant simile (Sarah) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Larry, Sarah, and Jon) - In a message dated 9/25/06 8:17:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Hi Larry (and Sarah and Jon at end) > > >S: "I think that every citta which arises (or vinnana) 'knows' in the > >sense > >of 'experiences' its object just as it is." > > > >L: Exactly! Phil described it as 'bare attention'. In everyday > >consciousness we don't notice this because it is covered over by > >ignorance. But as yoniso manasikara it is very noticeable. This is a > >very important stepping stone to panna, and, as you say, it is always > >available because it is every consciousness. Nyanaponika Thera also > >described it as 'bare attention'. It is attending to (experiencing) > >presently arising reality, but not quite understanding it. > > > Actually, I think I said bare "cognition" rather than attention, > which I would have though was different. Cognition with every object > that arises, but not attention, something like that. > ------------------------------------ Howard: The term bare cognition makes good sense to me, Phil. Larry, if I remember correctly, I think that Nyanaponika Thera may have used 'bare attention' to refer to a pure mindfulness that arises at the beginning of a process. As I recall, he recommended extending that. ---------------------------------------------- This is the sort > > of case where we best get right to the Pali, I guess. (Note, James, and > other people who are skeptical about the value of using Pali words.) > > So cognition as vinnana and attention as manasikara? > > ...sorry I haven't read your exchange with Sarah so am probably just > covering the same ground. > > Phil > > p.s Sarah and Jon, I am looking forward to considering our discussion > thread but there are two more I want to post today - back to you in a > few days, or when Nina is back maybe. Nice to have her looking over our > shoulder... :) > > ======================= With metta, Howard #63675 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:54 pm Subject: Anger/Phil (Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self) philofillet Hi Howard > For the most part, by which I mean "most of the time", anger arises > weakly and infrequently "in me", and when it does arise it is short lived. (More > technically, I would suppose that "short lived" actually comes down to > repeatedly arising only during a short period of time. Each "individual" occurrence > of anger is, I agree with the Abhidhammikas, very brief.) Yes, I think anger comes and goes more quickly than greed (lobha), which is more lingering and pervasive. "Greed is a lesser fault and fades away slowly; hatred is a great fault and fades away quickly; delusion is a great fault and fades away slowly." (AN 3:68) > I have a strong habit of introspection, and I almost always know what > is going on "in me". Very recently, especially in dreams, the anger has been > very frequent and very strong. I do have a good idea, psychologically, why this > is so. In fact I am certain of the reason. This is the anniversary of my > father's death. I hope it was not too painful for you. My recent dreams have been involving him with unusual regularity. > He died many years ago, but the deeper layers of mind pay little heed to that. > There is also an association with one of my sons who was named after him and > who has an important event coming up very soon. > So I know exactly what is going on. I also know how strongly rooted > this anger is rooted in both craving, aversion, attachment, and ego. The issues > are complex but known to me. "The issues are complex but known to me." That's the way I feel as well. I can identify sources of anger, the issues at work. Perhaps we are overconfident about this. Something to reflect on. > Anger is a major source of suffering. The Buddha likened it to a hot > coal that we pick up to hurl. Unfortunately it is pointless for us just to > think "Let there be no anger" when the conditions for anger are in place. What can > be done, and I'm doing it, is to see the anger clearly, face to face, without > running from it, to see its arising and what triggers that arising, seeing it > as early-on as possible and just "letting it go" without proliferating it by > thought-process-nutriment. I find the cliche expression "don't got there!" to be very helpful. And understanding full well that I *will* go there at times, "went there!" is also helpful. A little bit like the first and second right efforts I think. It's very liberating not to get to upset about our anger and hatred, which is of course not "us" but just factors at work. When I went through the period of feeling hateful towards people (including you) at DSG who didn't share my views, I didn't fret or do any special metta work towards them (you) or anything like that. I knew that other sources of dosa in daily life had been diminishing, so the accumulated dosa had to find an object and was going after people at DSG. I felt *ver* confident that it would pass, and it has. It will probaly come back at some point. That's ok. Another interesting anger anecdote. For a while, every time I saw/heard a motorcycle, I imagined it exploding! I really have an aversion to noisy motorcycles. Of course, imagining that sort of thing is akusala kamma patha, very dangerous, but I didn't fret. Again, I felt confident that it was just something that was working its way out. And occasionally I still imagine motorcycles exploding, but hardly ever now, thankfully! Now there is much more metta for drivers who have to rush around and less anger towards them. Again, no intentional metta work. Just developing understanding conditioning more metta, I think. (It disperses unless given further sustenance.) > Samatha meditation provides background support as well, of course, by it's > general calming effect. Yes, I think so. I do non-Buddhist visualization exerices using light imagery, healing imagery and it is very helpful. If there are ever conditions for me to develop samattha meditation I'm sure it will be even more helpful. Phil #63676 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:11 pm Subject: What's so great about being a bhikkhu these days? philofillet Hi James >I view a bhikkhu as more of an expert on the dhamma > than a layperson. I know that this doesn't suit well with the KS > camp since KS isn't a bhikkhuni, but that's the way I feel. You can > call it my personal bias if you like. ;-)) Nothing whatsoever to do with KS, but I don't understand the logic of why a person understands Dhamma better by virtue of being a bhikkhu. Of course, the probability might increase because of better conditions for concentrating on the teaching, but it doesn't seem like a sure thing. I have come across at least one bhikkhu on the internet (not referring to our friend Bhikkhu Samahita) who seemed frankly fraudulent to me. If that is a Buddhist sin against the Triple Gem to say, so be it. Living in Japan has deprived me, for the time being, of faith that there is any longer anything intrinsically noble about being a Buddhist bhikkhu/monk/priest. (I guess it's all the whiskey drinking, rolex- wearing, Mercedes driving, wife-having "monks" I have come across here! :) (How is it in Taiwan? Are Buddhist monks all filthy rich? Not all of them are here, I have heard that the Zen monks maintain more simple lifestyles, and there are probably others) Sorry if this is an offensive topic to anyone. Again, my ignorance at work. Phil #63677 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The coin merchant simile (Sarah) lbidd2 Hi Phil, In this simile consciousness is definitely a middle level of knowing, superior to perception in knowing the basic ground of reality. I called it yoniso manasikara because with that kind of attention is the only time when this virtue of consciousness is evident. But it functions as the basic knowing of reality all the time. However, most of the time it is obscured by ignorance. I think we might be able to make another distinction as well. I know I am treading on sacred ground here, but maybe we could look at baseball ;-) In the skillful playing of a sport the presently arising dhammas occupy much of our experience. This is similar but different from satipatthana because there isn't the memory of the dhamma. Even though there is no remembrance of the dhamma I think there is some skillfulness (kusala citta) there. Perhaps on a microscopic level being 'in the moment' _is_ remembrance of the dhamma (sati), even if you've never heard of such a thing. Larry #63678 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:45 pm Subject: Where is the Buddha? bhikkhu_ekamuni WHERE IS THE BUDDHA? The last book written by The late Venerable Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda Nayaka Maha Thera Born March 18, 1919 - Died Aug 31, 2006. It is freely available here: www.buddhistchannel.tv Some Pearls: What is mind? No matter. What is matter, Never mind! ;-) Hehehe! Buddhism is strong enough to face any modern theory challenging religion! The Buddha said that all things changes, decays and reach extinction... He discovered there is no God who created the universe... Buddhists do not ‘believe’ anything... Instead of believing, they practice... We crave not only for sense-pleasure, but also for existence itself... If the medicine is effective, do we need to know where the doctor is? The Buddha is in every mind, that has realised the Ultimate Truth! ----- Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63679 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and Scott) - In a message dated 9/25/06 9:40:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, connieparker@... writes: > Hi Howard, Scott, > Maybe this one will sit better. > peace, > connie > =========================== It is a bit milder. But, again, for some folks even stronger fare would be appropriate, and for others far weaker. What is appropriate all depends on person, context, and correct conditions. Just as psychoanalysis shouldn't be done by any old person, such extreme therapy would be dangerous, I think, when applied by anyone except a Dhammic expert - that is, one who has gone very far on the path *and* who has mastered the needed perfections. With metta, Howard #63680 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:01 pm Subject: Re: Anger/Phil (Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/25/06 9:56:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > > For the most part, by which I mean "most of the time", > anger arises > >weakly and infrequently "in me", and when it does arise it is > short lived. (More > >technically, I would suppose that "short lived" actually comes > down to > >repeatedly arising only during a short period of time. > Each "individual" occurrence > >of anger is, I agree with the Abhidhammikas, very brief.) > > Yes, I think anger comes and goes more quickly than greed (lobha), > which is more lingering and pervasive. "Greed is a lesser fault and > fades away slowly; hatred is a great fault and fades away quickly; > delusion is a great fault and fades away slowly." (AN 3:68) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, greed is generally more repetitive, I think. Still, when one has the propensity to anger, it is a strong "competitor"! ;-) ------------------------------------------ > > > > > I have a strong habit of introspection, and I almost always > know what > >is going on "in me". Very recently, especially in dreams, the > anger has been > >very frequent and very strong. I do have a good idea, > psychologically, why this > >is so. In fact I am certain of the reason. This is the anniversary > of my > >father's death. > > I hope it was not too painful for you. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! :-) It was tough. The circumstances were difficult. And generally, loss of one for whom there is great love and also great attachment is always tough. ---------------------------------------------- > > My recent dreams have been involving him with unusual regularity. > >He died many years ago, but the deeper layers of mind pay little > heed to that. > >There is also an association with one of my sons who was named > after him and > >who has an important event coming up very soon. > > So I know exactly what is going on. I also know how > strongly rooted > >this anger is rooted in both craving, aversion, attachment, and > ego. The issues > >are complex but known to me. > > "The issues are complex but known to me." That's the way I feel as > well. I can identify sources of anger, the issues at work. Perhaps > we are overconfident about this. Something to reflect on. > > > Anger is a major source of suffering. The Buddha likened it to > a hot > >coal that we pick up to hurl. Unfortunately it is pointless for us > just to > >think "Let there be no anger" when the conditions for anger are in > place. What can > >be done, and I'm doing it, is to see the anger clearly, face to > face, without > >running from it, to see its arising and what triggers that > arising, seeing it > >as early-on as possible and just "letting it go" without > proliferating it by > >thought-process-nutriment. > > I find the cliche expression "don't got there!" to be very > helpful. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, "Don't go there!" is a good expression, related to two parts of right effort: the effort to prevent the arising of akusala states, and the effort to abandon such states if already arisen. ------------------------------------------ And understanding full well that I *will* go there at > > times, "went there!" is also helpful. A little bit like the first > and second right efforts I think. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Ha! I jumped the gun! I should have read ahead!! ;-)) ---------------------------------------- > > It's very liberating not to get to upset about our anger and > hatred, which is of course not "us" but just factors at work. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, upset is just aversion that only compounds matters. However, regret and the determination-not-to-repeat are wholesome and useful I believe. ---------------------------------------- When I > > went through the period of feeling hateful towards people (including > you) at DSG who didn't share my views, I didn't fret or do any > special metta work towards them (you) or anything like that. I knew > that other sources of dosa in daily life had been diminishing, so > the accumulated dosa had to find an object and was going after > people at DSG. I felt *ver* confident that it would pass, and it > has. It will probaly come back at some point. That's ok. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I find mindfulness and right effort to the best techniques for me. It happens, for whatever precise reasons I cannot say, that I really love people (and animals also), and I'm more inclined to feel sorry for "bad" people - who I think suffer a great deal, so anger is usually very infrequent with me and very shortlived, and, thus I find metta bhavana through the standard meditative approach to be wasted on me, and I happen to personally find it very artificial. But at the same time, I would bet that there are loads of folks who could benefit from standard "metta meditation", and who, in fact, might find it to be the very best approach of all for them. "To each according to his needs." (And I'm not even a left-winger! LOLOL!) -------------------------------------------------- > > Another interesting anger anecdote. For a while, every time I > saw/heard a motorcycle, I imagined it exploding! I really have an > aversion to noisy motorcycles. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Hey, man - maybe you *should* try some metta meditation, becuse not only does it cultivate metta, but also placidity! ;-)) -------------------------------------------------- Of course, imagining that sort of > > thing is akusala kamma patha, very dangerous, but I didn't fret. > Again, I felt confident that it was just something that was working > its way out. And occasionally I still imagine motorcycles exploding, > but hardly ever now, thankfully! Now there is much more metta for > drivers who have to rush around and less anger towards them. Again, > no intentional metta work. Just developing understanding > conditioning more metta, I think. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, looking right at the anger that arises "in you", seeing its painfulness, and seeing what triggers it are the best first-hand means of developing that understanding - that along with information from the tipitaka. And not embellishing the anger you see but letting it go will go a long way to reducing the hold of anger on you. ------------------------------------------ > > > (It disperses unless given further sustenance.) > >Samatha meditation provides background support as well, of course, > by it's > >general calming effect. > > Yes, I think so. I do non-Buddhist visualization exerices using > light imagery, healing imagery and it is very helpful. If there are > ever conditions for me to develop samattha meditation I'm sure it > will be even more helpful. > > Phil > ======================= With genuine metta, Phil! Howard #63681 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: >Hi Jon & Howard, > > >>PS Rupas depend on namas for being experienced, but not (with some >>exceptions) for their arising. As I see it, the dictum in the >>'sheaves of reeds' sutta refers to the experiencing of rupas, not >>to their arising. >> >> > >Name-&-form depends on consciousness & consciousness depends on name- >&-form. > >Are these two dependencies to be understood as a one-way traffic >converging on the "experiencing" process? > >I think it is good to see how the Buddha interprets these two >dependencies. > > Thanks for quoting the exact text from the Sheaves of Reeds sutta SN 12:67. I should have checked the text myself before making my earlier comment, as the sutta text is not about the mutual dependency between nama and rupa, but about the mutual dependency between vinnana and nama-rupa. So I don't seek to maintain my comments as being an accurate summary of the vinnana/nama-rupa part of the sutta. >How the Buddha interprets "name-&-form depends on consciousness": > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html > >"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' >Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from >consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If >consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name- >and-form take shape in the womb?" > >"No, lord." > >"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, >would name-and-form be produced for this world?" > >"No, lord." > >"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, >would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?" > >"No, lord." >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >How the Buddha interprets "consciousness depends on name-&-form": > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html > >"'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' >Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from >name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If >consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a >coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress >in the future be discerned? >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for these passages from DN 15. I am with you so far. As a matter of interest, the commentarial and abhidhammic explanation of the relationship between vinnana and nama-rupa is as follows: - 'Vinnana' refers to patisandhi citta (the rebirth consciousness) and the subsequent vipaka cittas in the same life - 'Nama' of 'nama-rupa' refers to the mental factors that accompany the patisandhi citta and the subsequent vipaka cittas - 'Rupa' of 'nama-rupa' refers to the kamma-produced rupas that arise together with the patisandhi citta and the subsequent vipaka cittas (This analysis refers to realms where all 5 aggregates arise; slightly different details apply as regards realms in which not all 5 aggregates arise.) Actually, this subject has been discussed before, in a thread in which you were involved. See a post of Sarah's at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52086 >The meaning of "gaining a foothold in name-&-form" is explained in the >Chachakka Sutta MN 148: > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html > >"'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. >In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there >arises consciousness at the eye. Dependent on the ear & sounds there >arises consciousness at the ear. Dependent on the nose & aromas there >arises consciousness at the nose. Dependent on the tongue & flavors >there arises consciousness at the tongue. Dependent on the body & >tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. Dependent >on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. >'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. >And in reference to this was it said. This is the third sextet. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > You have lost me here, I'm afraid. I cannot see the connection between the quoted text and the expression "gaining a foothold in name-and-form". Would you mind elaborating a little further. Thanks. >"Origination of birth, aging, death, and stress in the future" refers >to "craving that makes for further becoming", that is the Second Noble >Truth. (By the way, this version of the Second Noble Truth actually >violates the sacred grounds that Howard holds on to. He sees this as a >distortion.) > > Likewise with this quote from the Second Noble Truth. How do you see it as linking to the preceding discussion? Thanks. >The Chachakka Sutta continues with how the meeting of the eye, forms >and eye consciousness is contact, with contact as requisite condition, >there is feeling, and with feeling as requisite condition, there is a >coming-into-play of craving. > >As I see it, only the dependency of "consciousness depends on name-&- >form" describes the 'experiencing' process. > >The other dependency of "name-&-form depends on consciousness" does >not describe the 'experiencing' process. > > You may well be right here, but I'd like to understand your reasoning better before I make any further comment. Jon #63682 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:19 am Subject: Re: some points on art buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James (and Leo and Swee Boon) > > > I came across a sutta this morning that made me think of this > post.It's SN 12:66. I imagine you already know it. > > "Whatever ascetics and brahmins at present (and past and future) > regard that in the world with a pleasant and agreeable nature as > permanent, as happiness, as self, as healthy, as secure: they are > naturing craving. In nurturing craving, they are naurturing > acquisition. In nurturing acquisition theya re nurturing suffering. > In nurturting suffering, they are... (well you get the idea) > > suppose, bhikkkhus, there was a bronze cup of a beverage having a > fine colour, aroma and taste, but it was mixed with poison. Then a > man would come along, oppressed and afflicted by the heat, tired, > parched and thirsty. They would tell him: 'Good man, this beverage > in the bronze cup has a fine colour, aroma and taste, but it is > mixed with poison. Drink it if you wish, If you drink it, it will > gratify you with its colour, aroma and taste, but..(well you get the > idea) > > (But the wise man reflects) "I can quench my thirst with water, > whey, porridge and soup, but I should not drink that beverage since > to do so would lead to my harm and suffering for a long time." > > > You know me, James. I drink quite readily of life's pleasures and > beautiful things. It would be perverse and against the Buddha's > teaching of the middle way to become strict and sour about sensual > pleasures. But reflecting on suttas like the above also provides > helpful reminders to help us keep balance, yeah? Most people's "Middle Way" is not the middle way taught by the Buddha. The Buddha taught to avoid the extremes of self-deprivation and hedonism. Deciding to buy one CD at the music store instead of two is not "The Middle Way". LOL! The Buddha taught "The Middle Way" to monks and I think it applies best and in proper spirit to the ascetic lifestyle. > > It's also interting to note how our interest in certain things > that used to provide a lot of pleasure just kind of dwindles as we > continue to enjoy the pleasure in question. If we starved ourselves > of it in the belief that we were being wise and decisive the desire > for the pleasure just germinates and gets stronger I really don't believe this. The Buddha taught monks that they should follow the precepts even if it causes them such pain that tears streak their faces. After that struggle, the desire will be greatly conquered. Desire is not overcome by giving in to desire. You seem to think that we will naturally get bored with the desired object and turn away from it, but that isn't a true turning away. That is simply looking for another sensual object to replace the first. It is a never ending search for sensual objects and it doesn't stop without some strong intervention. ...in my case this > has been the case with alcohol. I still enjoy it on occasion, but > just finding less and less pleasure in it naturally and more and > more sensitivity to the way even a little bit clouds clarity of mind > the next day. This is good. In this case wisdom is lessening the desire for alcohol, not a boredom with the alcohol. If I cut it off cold turkey I would be less free from > it rather than more free, I think. Again, I completely disagree. Alcoholics must stop consuming alcohol cold turkey if they ever hope to be free of it. Alcohol is an addictive drug, it isn't your average sensual pleasure. There is a zen saying (did you know zen monks occassionally drink alcohol?), the man may drink his drink but he musn't let his drink drink him. That's another topic, and it > doesn't apply to all of life's pleasures. Anything that is akusala > kamma patha cannot be approached in this way. I'm not sure what you mean here, but I do agree that alcohol is a tricky topic. > > Phil Metta, James #63683 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:35 am Subject: Re: What's so great about being a bhikkhu these days? buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James > > >I view a bhikkhu as more of an expert on the dhamma > > than a layperson. I know that this doesn't suit well with the KS > > camp since KS isn't a bhikkhuni, but that's the way I feel. You can > > call it my personal bias if you like. ;-)) > > Nothing whatsoever to do with KS, but I don't understand the logic of > why a person understands Dhamma better by virtue of being a bhikkhu. Frankly, I can't understand why you can't understand. It seems plainly obvious to me. Granted, there are corrupt bhikkhus and the sangha, all over the world, is in a shambles, but I still believe that a good monk is much better capable of teaching the dhamma than a good householder. The Buddha also thought so: This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Monks, brahmans & householders are very helpful to you, as they provide you with the requisites of robes, alms food, lodgings, & medical requisites for the sick. And you, monks, are very helpful to brahmans & householders, as you teach them the Dhamma admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end; as you expound the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely complete, surpassingly pure. In this way the holy life is lived in mutual dependence, for the purpose of crossing over the flood, for making a right end to stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.4.100- 112.than.html#iti-107 Monks are supposed to teach the dhamma to householders. Householders are not supposed to teach the dhamma to monks or to each other. This is one reason why I would never accept KS or Nina as my dhamma teachers, they are householders. That is why, though I would love to write a book on the dhamma for the general public, I won't do so because I am a householder. I am not qualified to teach the dhamma. (However, I might write a book for children introducing them to the dhamma, since it would be just an introduction to spark interest and not a full teaching.) Of > course, the probability might increase because of better conditions for > concentrating on the teaching, but it doesn't seem like a sure thing. I > have come across at least one bhikkhu on the internet (not referring to > our friend Bhikkhu Samahita) who seemed frankly fraudulent to me. If > that is a Buddhist sin against the Triple Gem to say, so be it. Living > in Japan has deprived me, for the time being, of faith that there is > any longer anything intrinsically noble about being a Buddhist > bhikkhu/monk/priest. (I guess it's all the whiskey drinking, rolex- > wearing, Mercedes driving, wife-having "monks" I have come across > here! :) (How is it in Taiwan? Are Buddhist monks all filthy rich? Of the Buddhist monks I have met here in Taiwan, so far, I would not say that any of them have any money at all. They live in the temple, wear simple smocks, and do not travel out. Unfortunately, though, I haven't met one yet who can speak English well enough to get a better idea than that. Not > all of them are here, I have heard that the Zen monks maintain more > simple lifestyles, and there are probably others) > > Sorry if this is an offensive topic to anyone. Again, my ignorance at > work. It's better to raise doubts than to supress them. > > Phil > Metta, James #63684 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:04 am Subject: Internal and External Dependent Origination Reiterated pgradinarov Dear Swee Boon, > There is an interesting article by the late Ledi Sayadaw, the Manual > of Cosmic Order, that may provide some food for thought. > http://www.triplegem.plus.com/ledinyma.htm Many thanks for this link! It is another evidence that there are two types of dependent origination - External and Internal. The first two niyamas (utu- and bija-niyama which, BTW, is described in the same way as in the Salistamba-sutra) are summarizing the External DO, the next two (karma- and citta-niyama) are presenting the essence of the Internal DO, while dhamma-niyamata is expressing the stability (sthiti) in the instability of all rising phenomena, the unchanging character of the Law of DO which makes up the nature of dharmas. Who knows DO does really know dhammata. Thanks again for the quality read! Kindest regards, Plamen #63685 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:03 am Subject: Re: What's so great about being a bhikkhu these days? philofillet Hi James (and Howard) > > Sorry if this is an offensive topic to anyone. Again, my > ignorance at > > work. > > It's better to raise doubts than to supress them. > Thanks. It's something I vent on every six months or so. No big deal. Good that you have met bhikku-ish monks in Taiwan. Thanks also for your comments in the other thread. Thanks also Howard for your comments in the anger-related thread. Nice talking with you. Phil #63686 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon (Leo, James, Phil & all), I thought you quoted a very good sutta: --- nidive wrote: > I just quote a passage on sensuality for you to consider. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html > > "'Sensuality should be known. The cause by which sensuality comes into > play... The diversity in sensuality... The result of sensuality... The > cessation of sensuality... The path of practice for the cessation of > sensuality should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to > what was it said? > > "There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms > cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, > fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas > cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... > tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, > charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. But these are not > sensuality. They are called strings of sensuality in the discipline of > the noble ones. > > The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality, > not the beautiful sensual pleasures > found in the world. > The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. > > The beauties remain as they are in the world, > while the wise, in this regard, > subdue their desire. <...> ..... S: I was interested to look at the Pali and a couple of other translations for this verse, so would like to share what I found because I think it's so very appropriate for the discussions on this topic: * "Sa'nkapparaago purisassa kaamo Nete kaamaa yaani citraani loke, Sa'nkapparaago purisassa kaamo Ti.t.thanti citraani tatheva loke, Athettha dhiiraa vinayanti chandanti" * B.Bodhi translation: "Sensuality does not lie in the world's pretty things; A man's sensuality lies in thoughts of passion. While the world's pretty things remain as they are, The wise remove the desire for them." [BB footnote: "This verse, which plays upon the double meaning of kaama, emphasizes that purification is to be achieved by mastering the defilement of sensuality, not by fleeing sensually enticing objects." .... PTS (Hare) translation: "In passionate purpose lies man's sense-desire The world's gay glitters are not sense-desires, In passionate purpose lies man's sense-desires. The world's gay glitters as they are abide, But wise men hold desire therefor in check." .... S: In the Katthavathu, V111,4 (PTS "Points of Controversy", there is a controverted point about whether 'the subjective sense-desires or the objective five fields constitute kaama's'. Apparently some sects held the latter view. The Theravadin showed that only the kilesa (defilements)can be referred to as sensuality or kaama. "Theravadin: But was it not also said by the Exalted One: 'There are these fivefold pleasures of sense, bhikkhus: which are the five? Objects desirable,......adapted to sense-desires (kaama), and seductive are cognizable by sight, hearing, etc....five kinds of [objects associated with] sense-pleasure. Nevertheless, bhikkhus, these are not sense-desires; they are called in the Ariyan discipline [objects of] sense-pleasures [kaama-gu.naa]. For kaama is a man's lustful intention; 'The manifold of objects (yaani citraani - 'the varied things which') in the world- This in itself is not 'desire of sense.' Lustful intention is man's sense-desires. That manifold of objects doth endure; The will thereto the wise exterminate (or 'discipline'(vinayanti))' Hence it is wrong to say that just the five kinds of sense-objects constitute sense-desires." ***** Metta, Sarah ======= #63687 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Phil & all, --- sarah abbott wrote: > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd > > As we have seen, confidence in wholesomeness (saddhå), shame > (hiri), fear of blame (ottappa) and contentment are among the > proximate causes of the abstinences. When there is contentment > or fewness of wishes there are favourable conditions for observing > morality. ... S: This was given in the earlier Atthasalini quote. I've been reflecting on how true it is that we only speak or act wrongly when there isn't presently arising confidence in the value of kusala, hiri, ottappa (moral shame and scruples) and contentment or fewness of wishes at the time. Reflecting on these details doesn't mean at all that there won't be harsh speech and so on, but I think it helps to appreciate and understand a little more about the value of these supporting conditions for kusala. Of course, they too are conditioned, anatta and not worth clinging on to either. Even as I write, the clinging to having more kusala slips in very quickly! Of course, it can be known too:-) Any further comments? Metta, Sarah ======= #63688 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:40 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 531- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd When someone lies or uses dishonest means in order to obtain something for himself he acts in this way because of selfish desire. He hopes to gain something, but sooner or later he will suffer unpleasant results. Whenever we give in to wrong speech or wrong action we are enslaved and we are blinded, we do not realize the consequences. At that moment there is no shame which shrinks from evil and no fear of the consequences of evil. While we abstain from evil there are confidence in wholesomeness, shame and fear of blame and there is no selfish desire. Understanding, paññå, may or may not accompany the kusala citta which abstains from evil. As right understanding develops there will be less clinging to the concept of self and consequently there will be more conditions to abstain from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63689 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions at the Foundation contd (a) sarahprocter... Hi Kel (RobK & all), --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > Hi Sarah and RobK, > > > S: Before we get to BB's translation note, I believe the reference > is to > > the path of the bodhisatta. Once the supramundane purification of > > knowledge and vision is attained, of course we're no longer > talking about > > the bodhisatta, but about the Buddha. As for when the insights > leading up > > to this(vipassana)were developed, where in the text does it say > that these > > were in previous lives as opposed to just before his enlightenment > in his > > last life? > > Kel: Simply look at the beginning of the text: > > We now undertake a detailed explanation of the paramis for clansmen > following the suttas who are zealously engaged in the practice of > the vehicle to great enlightenment (mahabodhiyana), in order to > improve their skilfulness in accumulating the requisites for > enlightenment. > > Kel: This text isn't for someone in their last life to become a > Buddha. .... S: Isn't it for anyone who can appreciate the value of the teachings and the paramis as perfected by the Buddha? ... >Here's another portion that points to the audience. > > If the bodhisattva has attained to the direct knowledges, he may > inspire a sense of spiritual urgency (samvega) in the negligent by > showing them the fate of those in hell, etc., as is fit. Thereby he > establishes the faithless (immoral, ignorant, stingy, and dull- > witted) in faith (virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom). He > makes them enter the Buddha's Dispensation and brings to maturity > those already endowed with these qualities. In this way, through his > virtuous conduct, the Great Man's immeasurable flood of merit and > goodness ascends to ever increasing heights. > Kel: This refers to a bodhisattva that is not in a dispensation > of his own. ... S: I don't pretend to understand all the details in the good quotes, Kel. Just a couple of comments: a)If there is no Buddha sasana at the time, could he or anyone else encourage others to 'enter' it? b)Now, we are following the Buddha's teachings and we encourage others to 'enter', but does this mean we must have attained high insights? c)By encouraging all that is good and noble, don't such qualities act as conditions for later enlightenment? For example, in innumerable lives the (later) Great Disciples were attendants, companions and so on of the bodhisatta, developing parami ready for full enlightenment in their last lives. .... <...> (BB quote): > > > 25. Purification by knowledge and vision is the supramundane > wisdom > > > of the four noble paths. Because this purification issues in the > > > realization of nibbana, the bodhisattva-aspirant must stop short > of > > > this attainment so that his realization of nibbana will coincide > > > with his perfect enlightenment. > > ... > > S: This is a footnote of B.Bodhi's I believe. I think it is a > popular > > understanding but misleading. > > Kel: Where's you source to back this statement? ... S: Perhaps there's some misunderstanding. I was questioning: a)the suggestion that anyone can 'stop short' or control in any sense the arising of any citta or of final enlightenment. As I mentioned, it reminds me of a popular understanding about 'putting off one's enlightenment' etc, all suggestive of an idea of self. Do you disagree? b) There's no doubt that 'the realization of nibbana will coincide with his perfect enlightenment', but this is by the conditions of becoming a samasambuddha, not by dint of self-will, surely? .... >Especially > given the fact I've pasted the same position of three Abhidhamma > scholars from Burma. For example, U Silananda's statement was > similar to Ledi sayadaw but clarified it further in second paragraph > (#60183). I understand commentaries to use cula-sotapanna with a > bit of poetic license in the praise heaped on them. .... S: Didn't you tell me that Ledi Sayadaw understood that a cula-sotapanna wouldn't again be reborn in lower realms? RobK also quoted him as saying this recently. You suggest that the commentaries are using 'poetic license', but aren't the commentaries the most reliable source of explanation? How much poetic license should we attribute to them when the explanations are different from those of more modern scholars? Ages ago I gave a quote from I.B.Horner in her Preface to the commentary of the Buddhavamsa: "Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The commentaries are the armour and protection agains such an eventuality. As they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true Dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as 'closed' now as is the Pali Canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included within it." S: I know you also have a lot of confidence in the texts, Kel, so I'm not suggesting you're saying anything different here. .... >Technical > understanding is clear and consistent in Burma as far as I > understand. How can you dismiss it as just BB's footnote that leads > to some misunderstanding? .... S: I think you slightly missed my point which was about the suggestion of any control over dhammas. I'm not sure if the 'technical understanding' is completely consistent in Burma. You'd know better. When we met Han (who is in his 80s now), he could remember as a child how controversial the teachings of some famous Burmese teachers and scholars were considered at the time. ... > > The way I see it Sarah, as stated in your post #63255, you don't > have any proof. You just have general reading of Visuddhimagga > descriptions. I'm confident that Abhidhamma teachers from Burma > understanding of this issue is more solid. ... S: You may well be right! However, what we read and consider has to be in conformity with the rest of the teachings. So, no matter what we read, no cittas can be controlled or stopped in anyway when the conditions are ready for them to arise. .... >My only sobering thought > from this discussion is how small difference in understanding and > accepting the same words/texts can lead to a big fundamental > difference. I've pretty much contributed to this as I can and we > have reached a stalemate. .... S: In any case, you always help me to consider and reflect a lot on what I say and on the teachings. So, I'm very grateful for your probing questions, Kel. As you say, it's not just a matter of what the texts say, but the understanding that's important. In the end, the Abhidhamma or dhamma is not in any Tipitaka or commentary, but is that which is being experienced at this moment. I apologise for any frustration my comments and lack of understanding may have conditioned. Not my intention, of course! Let's keep the topic on the back-burner in any case either of us comes up with anything else. Metta, Sarah ======== #63690 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions at the Foundation contd (a) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Kel) - I would like to give my reading of the following portion of your conversation: In a message dated 9/26/06 7:30:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > ... > > >Here's another portion that points to the audience. > > > >If the bodhisattva has attained to the direct knowledges, he may > >inspire a sense of spiritual urgency (samvega) in the negligent by > >showing them the fate of those in hell, etc., as is fit. Thereby he > >establishes the faithless (immoral, ignorant, stingy, and dull- > >witted) in faith (virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom). He > >makes them enter the Buddha's Dispensation and brings to maturity > >those already endowed with these qualities. In this way, through his > >virtuous conduct, the Great Man's immeasurable flood of merit and > >goodness ascends to ever increasing heights. > > > Kel: This refers to a bodhisattva that is not in a dispensation > >of his own. > ... > S: I don't pretend to understand all the details in the good quotes, Kel. > Just a couple of comments: > > a)If there is no Buddha sasana at the time, could he or anyone else > encourage others to 'enter' it? > -------------------------------------- Howard: As I understand this specific portion, the bodhisatta referred to took training under, and made thr vow to, an earlier Buddha who is no longer alive. The dispensation has not yet ceased, however, and the bodhisatta who is currently instructing people is truly already a buddha-to-be though not necessarily the upcoming one, and not a paccekabuddha either, but someone who is a buddha-to-be at the time the the last buddha's dispensation is still in force, with the Dhamma still extant in the land, and this bodhisatta one of those maintaining it. Even where the text speaks of having "attained to the direct knowledges", it refers not to a buddha, but to the bodhisatta, saying "If the bodhisattva has attained to the direct knowledges, ... ." Now, I can understand how one might infer that speaking, conditionally, of a bodhisatta having attained to the direct knowledge means that he is now a buddha, and the dispensation referred is his However the last two sentences I quoted above seem to disallow that reading. They say "He makes them enter the Buddha's Dispensation and brings to maturity those already endowed with these qualities. In this way, through his virtuous conduct, the Great Man's immeasurable flood of merit and goodness ascends to ever increasing heights." If he were the buddha referred to and this were his dispensation, the final sentence would make no sense, for a buddha has no need or possibilty of having his "immeasurable flood of merit and goodness ascend to ever increasing heights". There is no increase in merit or goodness for a buddha, but there can be for a bodhisatta. ==================== With metta, Howard #63691 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions at the Foundation contd (a) sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Kel), Thanks for your helpful input. --- upasaka@... wrote: > > a)If there is no Buddha sasana at the time, could he or anyone else > > encourage others to 'enter' it? > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > As I understand this specific portion, the bodhisatta referred to > took > training under, and made thr vow to, an earlier Buddha who is no longer > alive. The dispensation has not yet ceased, however, and the bodhisatta > who is > currently instructing people is truly already a buddha-to-be though not > necessarily the upcoming one, and not a paccekabuddha either, but > someone who is a > buddha-to-be at the time the the last buddha's dispensation is still in > force, with > the Dhamma still extant in the land, and this bodhisatta one of those > maintaining it. .... S: S: Yes, I tend to agree with your comments. This was partly my point. Like for us now even -- we can only encourage others in the path of satipatthana because there is still a Buddha sasana or as you put it, 'the last Buddha's dispensation is still in force'. It doesn't mean that we have any attainments. When there is no Buddha's dispensation, which there wasn't for innumerable lives of the Bodhisatta (or for any Bodhisatta for that matter), then others cannot be encouraged on the path. It then requires another Sammasambuddha to become enlightened and establish a new sasana .... >Even where the text speaks of having "attained to the > direct > knowledges", it refers not to a buddha, but to the bodhisatta, saying > "If the > bodhisattva has attained to the direct knowledges, ... ." .... S: Again, I agree. I take it that these are referring to the 5 mundane abhi~n~naas. .... > Now, I can understand how one might infer that speaking, > conditionally, of a bodhisatta having attained to the direct knowledge > means that he is now > a buddha, and the dispensation referred is his However the last two > sentences > I quoted above seem to disallow that reading. They say "He makes them > enter > the Buddha's Dispensation and brings to maturity those already endowed > with > these qualities. In this way, through his virtuous conduct, the Great > Man's > immeasurable flood of merit and goodness ascends to ever increasing > heights." If he > were the buddha referred to and this were his dispensation, the final > sentence would make no sense, for a buddha has no need or possibilty of > having his > "immeasurable flood of merit and goodness ascend to ever increasing > heights". > There is no increase in merit or goodness for a buddha, but there can be > for a > bodhisatta. > ==================== .... S: I agree with your conclusion and don't see a problem with it. Often in the texts, I believe, when the abhinnas (direct knowledges) are referred to, it is the 5 mundane abhinnas referred to. See Vism X1-X111 for detail on these 5. The 6th abhinna is the extinction of all cankers (aasavakkhaya). Obviously, if this were to be included, it would be referring to his attainment of Buddhahood! Thanks for your helpful comments and interest in the thread, Howard. It's useful to have different input in the thread at this point. Metta, Sarah ======== #63692 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am sorry I do not quite understand what you are trying to say. Are you confirming the following statement? As we have seen, confidence in wholesomeness ( saddha), shame (hiri), fear of blame (ottappa) and contentment are among the proximate causes of the abstinences. When there is contentment or fewness of wishes there are favourable conditions for observing morality. Or, are you saying that although there may be the above mentioned conditions for observing morality, in actual fact, it is not so easy to do so, and it doesn't mean that there won't be harsh speech and so on? Respectfully, Han #63693 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:16 am Subject: Re: Internal and External Dependent Origination Reiterated nidive Hi Plamen Gradinarov, > > There is an interesting article by the late Ledi Sayadaw, the > > Manual of Cosmic Order, that may provide some food for thought. > > http://www.triplegem.plus.com/ledinyma.htm > > Many thanks for this link! It is another evidence that there are two > types of dependent origination - External and Internal. The first > two niyamas (utu- and bija-niyama which, BTW, is described in the > same way as in the Salistamba-sutra) are summarizing the External > DO, the next two (karma- and citta-niyama) are presenting the > essence of the Internal DO, while dhamma-niyamata is expressing the > stability (sthiti) in the instability of all rising phenomena, the > unchanging character of the Law of DO which makes up the nature of > dharmas. > > Who knows DO does really know dhammata. > > Thanks again for the quality read! If you would like to show your appreciation, you can also sign the guestbook at www.nibbana.com, of which Dr U Maung Maung Lwin is the webmaster who put up the article on his website. Whoever sees Dependent Origination in both forward and reverse orders sees the Dhamma! Never again is he/she destined for an eighth existence. By this truth spoken of by the Blessed One, may there be happiness. Regards, Swee Boon #63694 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: some points on art nidive Hi Sarah, > "Sensuality does not lie in the world's pretty things; > A man's sensuality lies in thoughts of passion. > While the world's pretty things remain as they are, > The wise remove the desire for them." > ... Thank you for all your good quotes. They are all agreeable with me. But still I am not free from sensuality. Do you know why it takes two path moments in order to completely eradicate sensuality? I think sensuality must be a very strong defilement. Regards, Swee Boon #63695 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Jon, > You have lost me here, I'm afraid. I cannot see the connection > between the quoted text and the expression "gaining a foothold in > name-and-form". Would you mind elaborating a little further. Name-&-form acts as a foothold for the arising of consciousness. Where consciousness arises in dependence on name-&-form, consciousness is said to gain a foothold in name-&-form. The five external mediums (the form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium) with the exception of the idea-medium are all variations of form. The six internal mediums (the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose- medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium) arises in dependence on name-&-form. Therefore, the five external mediums and the six internal mediums can be summarized as just name-&-form. It is worthwhile to take note that the Buddha skips over the six sense media in DN 15: -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html "'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact.' Thus it has been said. -------------------------------------------------------------------- The usual way of DO includes the six sense media as in between name-&- form and contact: -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Now, in dependence on the external medium and the internal medium, there arises the corresponding consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact, with contact, there is feeling, with feeling, there is the coming into play of craving that makes for further becoming. This is how I understand the dependency of "consciousness depends on name-&-form" as the 'experiencing' process. Regards, Swee Boon #63696 From: Daniel Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:19 am Subject: Re: Existence sbhtkk Hi Sarah, Sarah : > In another sense, because there is only ever the present consciousness > cognizing its present object, nothing else exists. Just one world at a > time. What do you think? The wall behind the screen of your computer at this moment, is not cognized by any consciousness, at least not by a human consciousness. And yet, it seems to "exist" somehow, even though not cognized... You can look at it, and then you would see it, even though now you do not see it... Or would you say that everything dissapears when you don't cognize it, and then reappears when you cognize it??? That is a scary position to make... Daniel #63697 From: Daniel Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:38 am Subject: Self sbhtkk Hi all, When adressing the assertion that there a "self" that is different from all of the aggregates exists and stands at its own right (as claimed by some non-buddhist schools for examples) , a monk told me "If it were so, then we could not say 'John is here'. Also, we could not say 'John is old' or 'John is writing a letter'. Or 'John is a man'. These are imputed on the basis of the body". (Quoting from memory, hope it is correct... ) I assume that we also could not say 'John is happy' or 'John is sad' or 'John is seeing a dog'. All those are said on the basis of the aggregates. About the "self" which is different from all of the six-consciousnesses, there is very little we can actually say... (It was a tibetan monk. As far as I understand, in Tibetan Buddhism, it is said that a "conventional me" does exist. As far as I understand, it would be valid to say those things about a "conventional me", but would not be valid to say those things about the self that is different from all aggregates, and does not change. That is what the argument is based upon. About the "conventional me" which does exist, according to Tibetan Buddhism, one can read about it at the first 5 paragraphs of http://www.berzinarchives.com/e-books/spiritual_teacher/spiritual_teacher_16.htm\ l ) Anyway, what I wanted to ask is whether you agree with the argument? I am not sure that it refutes the idea of a "solid me". Because I could reply "yes, exactly. You cannot say 'John is happy' or 'John is sad' or 'John is old' or 'John is a man'. These are things that change. John himself does not change, you were just talking about the aggregates that belong to John. If we were to describe reality as it is , we would have to say ' the feeling of John is sadness', 'the body of John is old', 'the body of john is a man'. To me the idea, which perhaps is a Hindu one that the true self is the self which does not change, and that liberation is achieved via uniting with this unchanging self seems very plausible... What do you think about it? Yours, daniel #63698 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Existence matheesha333 AN 10.6 Samadhi Sutta Concentration Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A v 7 Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?" "Yes, Ananda, he could..." "But how, lord, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?" "There is the case, Ananda, where the monk would be percipient in this way: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' It's in this way that a monk could have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- See also: AN 9.36; AN 10.7. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sunday 2006-06-18 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.006.than.html #63699 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Existence upasaka_howard Hi, Daniel (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/26/06 1:27:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, daniell@... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > > > Sarah : > > >In another sense, because there is only ever the present consciousness > >cognizing its present object, nothing else exists. Just one world at a > >time. What do you think? > > > > The wall behind the screen of your computer at this moment, is not cognized > by > any consciousness, at least not by a human consciousness. And yet, it seems > to > "exist" somehow, even though not cognized... You can look at it, and then > you > would see it, even though now you do not see it... Or would you say that > everything dissapears when you don't cognize it, and then reappears when you > cognize it??? That is a scary position to make... > > Daniel > ===================== The matter of the existence or nonexistence of real external walls or external rupas (for that matter) notwithstanding, do you really need the existence of an actual, self-existent wall to "lean on" emotionally? Would not an experiential story shared with others serve as well? What would be helpful and important for you to see, I think, is that you want an emotional anchor. (We all are so afflicted.) You speak of a "scary position" to take. But realizing that there is nothing anywhere in any sense to hold onto or even to grasp, and that there is really no "one" to do the grasping is, in fact, the Buddhist goal. What Buddhists are doing is moving towards a relinquishment that, on the face of it, IS scary. Letting go of fear, however, is an important part of the process. Ultimately there is nothing to fear, for there is no essential danger. Remember, one of the mudras (hand gestures) shown in Buddhist iconography is the "Fear not" gesture. That reminds me of the New Testament annunciation: "Fear not, for I bring you great tidings of joy!" The realization of the freedom that is nibbana is not to be feared, though fear may arise as we move towards it. With metta, Howard #63700 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art jonoabb Hi James (and Leo and Swee Boon) buddhatrue wrote: >To be a bit confessional on this topic, I have always had a problem >with the Buddha's teaching on revulsion of the body. This isn't >because I am overly lusty (though I have my moments ;-)) it is >because I view the human body as a work of art. I see great beauty >in the works of Michelangelo, Raphael, Da Vinci, and the Greek >masters. I also see great beauty in nature and really appreciate >the works of Van Gogh and Monet. > >I really do have somewhat of an eternal conflict with my love of art >and my love of the dhamma. I don't want to give either up- but I do >see a conflict. Art is sensual desire. Granted, it is a very high >and refined form of sensual desire, but it is sensual desire all the >same. > > An appreciation of art need not be seen as being in conflict with an appreciation of the Dhamma. I think the texts make it clear that while all worldly attachments will be given up eventually, there is no need for them to be somehow 'dealt with' first in order for the development of insight to proceed. The position is the same as regards the development of samatha: that development can occur without the need to do anything special about the defilements (although slightly different considerations may apply as regards the development of samatha at the high levels spoken of in the Vism). As understanding is developed and the interest in Dhamma is strengthened, various 'distractions' will fall away without us having to 'do' anything about it. Some of those distractions will remain with us right up until the end, but there's no knowing which these will be. >But, often for me, art is what gets me through the day. > > And for others it's coffee or food or social interaction or venting anger or whatever. There's nothing special about any of them (except of course that they're 'mine!'). Jon #63701 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The coin merchant simile (Sarah) lbidd2 Hi Howard, H: "Larry, if I remember correctly, I think that Nyanaponika Thera may have used 'bare attention' to refer to a pure mindfulness that arises at the beginning of a process. As I recall, he recommended extending that." L: Maybe so. I don't think it matters too much what we call it. I was just trying to point to the experience of this here now. On the one hand this experience is common and ordinary. On the other hand, it is a significant step into reality. Larry #63702 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:09 pm Subject: Re: Existence nidive Hi Daniel & Sarah, > > In another sense, because there is only ever the present > > consciousness cognizing its present object, nothing else exists. > > Just one world at a time. What do you think? > The wall behind the screen of your computer at this moment, is not > cognized by any consciousness, at least not by a human > consciousness. And yet, it seems to "exist" somehow, even though > not cognized... You can look at it, and then you would see it, even > though now you do not see it... Or would you say that > everything dissapears when you don't cognize it, and then reappears > when you cognize it??? That is a scary position to make... That is indeed a scary position to make and I think anyone who makes that kind of position is very likely a patient at the Institute of Mental Health. I don't think that's what Sarah means, but we will wait for her reply before we 'interrogate' her further. Regards, Swee Boon #63703 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: some points on art buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James (and Leo and Swee Boon) > > buddhatrue wrote: > > >To be a bit confessional on this topic, I have always had a problem > >with the Buddha's teaching on revulsion of the body. This isn't > >because I am overly lusty (though I have my moments ;-)) it is > >because I view the human body as a work of art. I see great beauty > >in the works of Michelangelo, Raphael, Da Vinci, and the Greek > >masters. I also see great beauty in nature and really appreciate > >the works of Van Gogh and Monet. > > > >I really do have somewhat of an eternal conflict with my love of art > >and my love of the dhamma. I don't want to give either up- but I do > >see a conflict. Art is sensual desire. Granted, it is a very high > >and refined form of sensual desire, but it is sensual desire all the > >same. > > > > > > An appreciation of art need not be seen as being in conflict with an > appreciation of the Dhamma. I think the texts make it clear that while > all worldly attachments will be given up eventually, there is no need > for them to be somehow 'dealt with' first in order for the development > of insight to proceed. Oh, it really isn't a big deal. I didn't write anything about "dealing with" my love of art; I just stated that I have it. But really, this post of mine is really stupid and it should be disregarded. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it! ;-)) > > The position is the same as regards the development of samatha: that > development can occur without the need to do anything special about the > defilements Jon, you must be the most relaxed person in the world! You are practically practicing samatha all day!! ;-)) (although slightly different considerations may apply as > regards the development of samatha at the high levels spoken of in the > Vism). I just got my copy of the Vism. yesterday! I have started to read it. So far, I think that everything I have read is contrary to what you believe. > > As understanding is developed and the interest in Dhamma is > strengthened, various 'distractions' will fall away without us having to > 'do' anything about it. Of course. But something must be 'done' in order for this understanding to be developed. Just read the Vism. Jon! Some of those distractions will remain with us > right up until the end, but there's no knowing which these will be. Could be. > > >But, often for me, art is what gets me through the day. > > > > > > And for others it's coffee or food or social interaction or venting > anger or whatever. There's nothing special about any of them (except of > course that they're 'mine!'). Okay, thank you. I would be irritated but it's my fault for writing such a stupid post in the first place. > > Jon > Metta, James #63704 From: "sofgld" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:36 pm Subject: Deva uses devine power to change human karma. sofgld Hi all, I am a newbie looking for the title of a story and links. The story is about a tricky deva king..it goes like this... Once a deer drank the urine of a hermit meditating in a forest. She gave birth to a human son, (no contact between the deer and the hermit) the hermit raised the infant by feeding milk produced from his finger tip. The hermit taught dhamma and meditation, making the boy the purest and holiest (he doesn't know any female nor sex)in the human realm. The deva king found out about this and was SO scared to loose his position to this pure and holy boy. So he went down to human realm and persuaded someone(name?) who has a daughter or niece(?)to seduce the boy. The girl went to the forest and managed to seduced the boy and tainting the purity of the boy. She lied the boy that she had a disease that the boy could cure by having sex. Can anyone who knows the story please give/guide me to the full story and links.. Thanks in advance Metta Sof #63705 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:44 pm Subject: Baseball came up!!! I'm so happy. ( was [dsg] Re: The coin merchant simile) philofillet Hi Larry > In this simile consciousness is definitely a middle level of knowing, > superior to > perception in knowing the basic ground of reality. It certainly does sound that way in the simile, doesn't it? I called it yoniso > manasikara because with that kind of attention is the only time when > this virtue of consciousness is evident. But it functions as the basic > knowing of reality all the time. However, most of the time it is > obscured by ignorance. But what is it in the Pali? Vinnana? If it is vinanna it can't be yoniso manasikara, can it? It doesn't matter so much, of course. The simile helps us to reflect deeper, gives hints for our further examination. That's helpful enogh. > > I think we might be able to make another distinction as well. I know I > am treading on sacred ground here, but maybe we could look at baseball > ;-) Oh yeah, baby. Now you're talking my language. >In the skillful playing of a sport I wouldn't know about that. But I know a lot about the skillful watching of the playing of a sport! the presently arising dhammas > occupy much of our experience. This is similar but different from > satipatthana because there isn't the memory of the dhamma. Is that small "d" dhamma as in paramattha dhamma or big D "Buddha's teaching" Dhamma. There must be remembrance (in the "sanna marks an object" sense) of paramattha dhammas to be able to function on the baseball diamond, right? All that sanna picking up on the spin of the pitch, sati of some kind or other that is mindful, samadhi of the universal-cetasika kind tuning in on sense objects, which of course happens no matter where we are and what we are doing. What do you mean "memory of the dhamma" here? >Even though > there is no remembrance of the dhamma I think there is some skillfulness > (kusala citta) there. Perhaps on a microscopic level being 'in the > moment' _is_ remembrance of the dhamma (sati), even if you've never > heard of such a thing. Sure, it must be, I'd have thought. These processes go on whether we've heard the Buddha's teaching or not, yeah? Thanks you, Larry. You made my day by bringing up baseball. Deep in my heart I have been longing without knowing it for a bridge between two of my three passsions, and you provided it. Now if I can bridge Buddhism, baseball and Japanese children's literature I will be blissed right out. But it can't be forced. If conditions arise for it, they arise. I suppose, ideally, my darling Naomi will arise in the mix as well. Phil #63706 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:29 pm Subject: The One & Only Way ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the One & Only Way of Purification of Being? Just after enlightenment the Blessed Buddha stayed under a great Banyan tree at Uruvela on the bank of the river Neranjara. There he reflected: There is this is the one and only direct way for the purification of beings, for the relief from all sorrow & grief, for the fading away of all pain and frustration, for achieving the right method, for the realization of Nibbana, that is, these Four Foundations of Awareness. What four? When a Bhikkhu lives & dwells, aware & clearly comprehending, while always contemplating & reflecting upon: 1: The Body merely as a disgusting & fragile accumulation.. 2: The Feelings just as instantly passing conditioned reactions.. 3: The Mind only as a set of recurring, banal & habituated Moods.. 4: Phenomena only as mentally manifested phoney Appearances.. He thereby removes any lust, urge, envy & frustration rooted in this world.. This is indeed verily the one & only direct way for the purification of beings, for the relief from all sorrow & grief, for the fading away of all pain and frustration, for achieving the right method, for the realization of Nibbana, that is, these Four Foundations of Awareness... Then the Brahma Samapatti, knowing this, instantly appeared before the Blessed One & having arranged his upper robe over one shoulder, he raised his joined palms towards the Blessed One, and said to him: So it is. Blessed One! So it is. Fortunate One! Venerable sir, this is the one & only direct way for purification of beings... The Great Seer of the Stilling of all Becoming, Compassionate, understands this unique 1 Way: By which they all in the past crossed the flood, By which they all cross now in the present, and By which they all will cross ever in any future... Comment: The 'Flood' (Ogha) here means: The Flood of sense-desire (kama-ogha) The Flood of desiring becoming (bhava-ogha) The Flood of wrong views (dittha-ogha) The Flood of ignorance (avijja-ogha) Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 167-8] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 18 Brahma... Details On Foundations of Awareness (Sati): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63707 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhavangacitta and object, no 3. sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, (Howard & all), You added a good sutta to the discussion on the 'luminous mind' which I recall Howard appreciating a lot. --- nidive wrote: > I discovered a sutta that may help to explain the meaning of > "luminous". > > Muluposatha Sutta > The Roots of the Uposatha > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.070.than.html > > "There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones recollects his > own virtues, thus: '[They are] untorn, unbroken, unspotted, > unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, conducive > to concentration.' As he is recollecting virtue, his mind is calmed, > and joy arises; the defilements of his mind are abandoned, just as > when a mirror is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is a > mirror cleansed through the proper technique? Through the use of oil & > ashes & chamois & the appropriate human effort. This is how a mirror > is cleansed through the proper technique. In the same way, the defiled > mind is cleansed through the proper technique. And how is the defiled > mind cleansed through the proper technique? There is the case where > the disciple of the noble ones recollects his own virtues... As he is > recollecting virtue, his mind is cleansed, and joy arises; the > defilements of his mind are abandoned. He is thus called a disciple of > the noble ones undertaking the virtue-Uposatha. He lives with virtue. > It is owing to virtue that his mind is calmed, that joy arises, and > that whatever defilements there are in his mind are abandoned. This is > how the mind is cleansed through the proper technique. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: There are a few similar suttas, such as the ones about the refining of gold of impurities which give good analogies for the development of wholesome states. However, I don't think we should take them too literally, otherwise we end up with an understanding akin to those who believe cosnciousness really is good and splendid if only we could remove the dirt and see it clearly for what it is. .... > SB: > The mind is like a mirror (luminous). If the surface of the mirror is > dusty (defiled by incoming defilements), what it reflects is distorted > (doesn't discern things as they actually are present). > The mind is like a mirror (luminous). If the surface of the mirror is > clean (undefiled by incoming defilements), what it reflects is clear > (discerns things as they actually are present). > > It is related to the five hindrances. .... S: I think you've given good examples, but in the AN sutta being discussed, I believe 'luminous' refers to the previous 'untainted' (bhavanga) cittas as clarified in the commentary. As I mentioned, although all cittas can be said to be clear (pandara), luminous (pabhassara - as used in the quote you gave from the sutta) is never used to refer to the defiled mind. However, I believe the essence of your comments is correct and the sutta you quote is very apt. Btw, B.Bodhi gives this helpful footnote to the Pabhassara Sutta in his anthology of AN. (He has more recently written other comments on the sutta to me which I find less in conformity with the texts.): "Luminous (pabhasara'm). AA states that here "the mind" (citta) refers to the bhava'nga-citta, the 'life-continuum' or underlying stream of consciousness which supervenes whenever active consciousness lapses, most notably in deep sleep. The 'adventitious defilements' are greed, hatred and delusion, which appear at a stage of the cognitive process, which, in later Buddhist literature, is called 'javana', 'impulsion'. AA says that the defilements do not arise simultaneously with the bhava'nga, but they 'arrive' later, at the phase of javana. The fact that this expression 'luminous mind' does not signify any 'eternal and pure mind-essence' is evident from the preceding text, in which the mind is said to be extremely fleeting and transitory. The 'uninstructed worldling' (assutavaa puthujjana) is one who lacks adequate knowledge of the Dhamma and training in its practice." ***** Thanks again for your helpful input in this thread. Metta, Sarah p.s Lots and lots under 'Luminous' in 'Useful Posts'. The various threads can be followed by clicking on the other posts at the bottom of the posts quoted. ======= #63708 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Swee Boon), A good discussion on the control of dosa! --- ken_aitch wrote: > Thanks for another good question. As I see it, conditions are > ultimately dhammas. The conditions for the dhammas of the present five > khandhas were contained in the dhammas of the immediately preceding > five khandhas, .... S: Yes and of course also in long past dhammas, the accompannying dhammas and the present object which may be any kind of concept too. (You clarify all this is your next post as I recall) ... > and the conditions for next five khandhas to come are > all contained in the dhammas that are present now. ... S: With same additional comments perhaps? ... >It is true that a > kamma (cetana cetasika), for example, that arose in the long distant > past can condition the next vipaka citta, but that kamma is not > sitting out in space somewhere waiting for its chance. It fell away > permanently as soon as it arose. However, its conditioning influence > has been bound up in the dhammas of every moment that followed it. .... S: I like the way you put this. 'Conditioning influence has been bound up..' A nice change to 'accumulated ' and 'force'. .... > > So, coming back to our original question: where, in all of this, is > there any control over the arising/non-arising, of dosa? .... S: That's it! Only dhammas arising and falling, performing their functions, accumulating and so on. Of course, the effect of the present dhammas now - the wise or unwise attention, the sati and so on cannot be overestimated either. Metta, Sarah p.s Well and truly back 'Plastic Bag Bay' for our surfs and what a friendly community it is in this big city! Difficult to catch a wave when dozens of people are chatting to one, competing for the same wave and now, the latest, talking on mobile phones as well out there! Certainly different etiquette applies to all we learnt in Noosa:-)). Just shows that sila isn't bound up in a set of rules, perhaps? ============= #63709 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rob's forum on jhana, no 5. sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > Before I answer, pls tell me what exact you mean by 'control in the > > conventional sense'. > > > > M: If you feel like having a cup of tea you are capable of making one. > You have control over the ability to do that. .... S: Good example. Now, even when we speak or think in this way, what is the 'truth' of the matter? Is there really any kind of control involved would you say? .... > > Contrast that with.. > > You cannot telepathically move an object beyond your reach, with your > mind. You do not have control over that. .... S: What is the difference in dhamma terms between a) and b)? What has more control in the first case? (Just to remind others, this discussion started with my comments on the article on jhana which suggested there could be control over the development of jhana or vipassana and a selection of particular states or bhavana by oneself as I recall). Metta, Sarah ======== #63710 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cars are upadana-khandhas sarahprocter... Dear Plamen & all, --- Plamen Gradinarov wrote: > Dear Sarah and All, > > > Now, the rupas of the rocks on the moon are therefore dukkha, but > never > > upadana khandha (unless we happen to visit the moon). > > Cars beyond doubt are upadana-khandhas, otherwise no one would buy > them. ... S: First of all, we need to be very clear what the 5 khandhas are. They are rupa khandha, vedana khandha, sanna khandha, sankhara khandha and vinnana khandha. As to rupa khandha, this consists of the 4 primary rupas and the other 24 rupas which depend on them. Although what we call a car consists of many rupas, the car itself is a concept, an idea of a 'whole'. The clinging to the idea of the car definitely depends on the experience of various rupas through the senses, it's true. But cars are not upadana-khandhas. .... > > They are outside the 12 links of the internal dependent origination, ... S: What do you mean by the internal D.O.? Are you referring to the internal ayatanas, i.e eye-sense, ear-sense, nose-sense, taste-sense, body-sense and cittas? I agree, no cars involved if so. .... > but nevertheless are not entirely under the sway of the natural > necessity, or the external dependent origination; .... S: Again, are you referring to the external ayatanas here? Visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, cetasikas and subtle rupas? Again, no cars. .... >because we have lots > of reified namas incorporated in the design and the functional > dynamics of a car, even khandhas that can be considered nirmana-cittas > (artificial intelligence) like the board-computer and GPS. ... S: What you refer to are neither namas or rupas, but ideas. Metta, Sarah ======== #63711 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, Let me say at the outset that I've read your PS and am aware that your post is full of rhetorical questions. Any comments I add are also a 'thinking out loud':-). --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > In a message dated 9/23/06 6:25:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > > Now, the rupas of the rocks on the moon are therefore dukkha, but > never > > upadana khandha (unless we happen to visit the moon). > > > ===================== > What *are* the rupas of the rocks on the moon? Hardnesses hiding > out > 238, 000 or so miles away from us? Hardnesses constantly arising and > ceasing > "out there"? Are there rupas "in" those rocks other than hardnesses? Are > there > (very cold) heat rupas arising and ceasing "there"? Are there cohesion > rupas in > those rocks? Is that whole picture not just a *bit* odd, Sarah, if taken > literally without according any reality to the rocks themselves? .... S: Not just 'hardnesses' but kalapas (groups) of rupas conditioned by temperature. Hardness (pathavi rupa) can never arise on its own - there are always a minimum of 8 different inseperable rupas which include earth,water, fire, wind, colour, odour, flavour & nutritive essence. These tiny kalapas of rupas rise and fall away all the time. The various kalapas are separated by space (pariccheda rupa). In addition to the kapapas consisting of only these 8 inseperable rupas on the moon, there are also kalapas which include sound in addition such as in the case of falling rocks, for example. If you happen to receive a copy of 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', see ch 4 and also appendix 3 for a lot more detail! .... >Are > these alleged > external hardnesses and other external rupas theory-competition for the > molecules and atoms and subatomic particles of chemistry and physics? It > would seem > so. Are the "science particles" mere (useful) concept and story, but the > external rupas realities? .... S: When it comes to this kind of theory, there's probably much in common. The kalapas are minute particles which cannot be divided or separated again. But when science starts talking about 'energy' and so on, it loses what can be directly experienced at this moment. For example, now hardness (pathavi)can be experienced. Motion (vayo) can be experienced. I think it's easy to accept that each rupa must be supported by other rupas. But from your 'phenomenological' viewpoint or from the arising of awareness viewpoint, all that really matters is what can be experienced and known now. So anything on the moon or about the moon is a concept as you say. Concepts are concepts regardless of how accurate or not they are. Only the thinking at such times can be known. The point in my comment at the top of this post was merely to indicate that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha, regardless of whether there's any experience of them or not. But only those which are upadana khandha are a cause of dukkha in the sense of perpetuating the cycle in samsara. .... > Also, as far as clinging to those rupas (or not), there are > astronauts > who came across moon rocks and even brought some back. Do they or did > they > cling to the rupas "in those rocks"? ... S: I was giving an example for us, not for any unknown astronaut members:-). of course, if they are on the moon or carrying moon-rocks back home, there is bound to be clinging to what's seen, touched and thought about with regard to them. ... >What does it mean to cling to a > rupa? Isn't > it really clinging to sensations and ideas? ... S: Like now - not just clinging to sensations, but clinging to visible objects, sounds and so on. Yes, to ideas about what has just been seen, touched and so on too. ... >Could those astronauts > possibly > cling to the rock rupas? Which rupas would they cling to? The > hardnesses? The > coldnesses? The cohesions? Or, if they cling to anything at all, is it > not a > clinging to the remembered view of the ground, the horizon, and the > beautiful > blue earth in the lunar heavens, and a fond recollection of the thinking > that > went on at the time - the marveling over where they were and what they > were > doing, and the pleasantness that accompanies all this recollection? Was > not all > the clinging an internal matter? Is not all clinging a clinging to > sensations, > emotions, and ideas? ... S: To objects experienced through all the 5 sense doors and to mind door objects too. Just like now!! .... >Is the Dhamma a competitor to the sciences of > biology, > psychology, chemistry, physics, and astronomy, or is it a > phenomenological theory > and practice for the awakening and liberating of sentient beings? (Guess > which is my take! ;-) .... S: So that's why it has to come back to now!! There can only be direct understanding of the khandha appearing now, but this is the way we learn to appreciate what is really meant by khandha. Rupa khandha, for example, refers to any rupa - far, near, past, present and so on. By knowing present dhammas, we have more confidence that in the past dhammas were just like now, in the future they will be just like now, on other planets or in other realms they will be just like now. Nothing could ever be experienced through the body-sense apart from tangible objects. Nothing could ever be experienced through the eyes except for visible objects. We don't need any instruments or experimentation to show us the truth. It can be experienced now as you stress. ... > P.S. This post is full of rhetorical questions, and no reply is actually > > expected. It was just my way of "thinking out loud" to give some sort of > a clearer > idea of "where I am coming from" on all this. It is not intended as a > challenge to anyone, but is intended only to attempt to make my own > perspective less > murky to others. It was an attempt to let you all look a bit "inside my > head". > (Frightening, huh? LOLOL!) ... S: Can I say 'cute' instead:-). Metta, Sarah ========= #63712 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna sarahprocter... Hi Swee boon, --- nidive wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > S: Yes. Before people heard the Buddha's teachings, they attained > > jhana. Jhana is not confined to Buddhists (unless one is talking > > about lokuttara jhana). So the panna that arises with the > > development of samatha and jhana has a different object to the > > panna which arises in the development of satipatthana. In the first > > case, it's a concept or sign (with a couple of arupa jhana > > exceptions). In the latter case, it's a nama or rupa. > > In that case, my definition of panna is the latter: that is, the panna > which arises in the development of satipatthana. .... S: Yes, often that's what is referred to as panna. I think it's helpful to know that there also has to be panna for any samatha bhavana as well, right from the outset. .... > > By the way, why can't satipatthana take on a concept? .... S: Because satipatthana is the development of understanding and awareness of realities, of truths, leading to the full penetration of the Noble Truths. The understanding of concepts will never lead us along the Path. This is what distinguishes the Middle Way or Eightfold Path from all other paths. This is the way that dhammas are seen for what they are -- namas and rupas only which are anicca, dukkha and anatta. The One Way! Please ask for any further clarification as I think this is a very good question of yours. Metta, Sarah ====== #63713 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:58 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 532- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd It is not easy to know when there is kusala citta accompanied by one of the three abstinences. So long as it is not known precisely when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta, the characteristics of the cetasikas which are abstention from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood cannot be known either. It is of no use to try to focus on these realities since there are many sobhana cetasikas accompanying the kusala citta while we abstain from evil and it is difficult to know their different characteristics. When the characteristic of abstinence appears there can be mindfulness of it in order to be able to realize that it is not self who abstains. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63714 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:28 am Subject: Dasadhamma Sutta - Ten Things leoaive Buddha once said: There are these ten things that a person gone-forth should reflect on often. Which ten? I have become casteless, jobless and without family: a person gone forth should often reflect on this. My life is dependent on others... My behavior should be different [from that of householders]... Can I blame myself with regard to my morality?... Can noble friends blame me with regard to my morality?... I will grow different, separate from dear & appealing to me... I am the owner of my actions, inheritor to my actions, born of my actions, linked to my actions, the consequence of whatever I do will be all min... Am I making any progress as these days & nights fly past?... Do I delight in being alone in a solitary dwelling?... Have I attained any superior state, a truly noble knowledge & vision, such that — when my fellows in the holy life question me in the last days of my life — I wont feel ashame? A person gone forth should often reflect on this. These are the ten things that a person gone-forth should reflect on often. Source: AN 10.48 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.048.than.html I found it is interesting to post it With Metta Leo #63715 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:53 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Self dacostacharles Hi Daniel, When ever I see post about stuff like this red flags are flown in my mind. This is because my interpretation/opinion is totally different. I have to ask, are you new to Buddhism or this type on "no such thing as a self" view? Charles DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel <...> When adressing the assertion that there a "self" that is different from all of the aggregates exists and stands at its own right (as claimed by some non-buddhist schools for examples) , a monk told me "If it were so, then we could not say 'John is here'. Also, we could not say 'John is old' or 'John is writing a letter'. Or 'John is a man'. These are imputed on the basis of the body". (Quoting from memory, hope it is correct... ) I assume that we also could not say 'John is happy' or 'John is sad' or 'John is seeing a dog'. All those are said on the basis of the aggregates. About the "self" which is different from all of the six-consciousnesses, there is very little we can actually say... (It was a tibetan monk. As far as I understand, in Tibetan Buddhism, it is said that a "conventional me" does exist. As far as I understand, it would be valid to say those things about a "conventional me", but would not be valid to say those things about the self that is different from all aggregates, and does not change. That is what the argument is based upon. About the "conventional me" which does exist, according to Tibetan Buddhism, one can read about it at the first 5 paragraphs of http://www.berzinarchives.com/e-books/spiritual_teacher/spiritual_teacher_16 .html ) <...> #63716 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:20 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Existence dacostacharles Hi Sarah and Daniel, I did not have time to read the replies in this thread so I am jumping in at the bottom (post dated the 26 of Sept.). The idea that things "exist" or "don't really exist" is really based on location not the concept of "reality." What I mean is that things "exist" or "don't really exist" in the mind. This does not relate to the individual existence of something. The tree really exist as the concept tree and yet exist in the mind when we cognize it. But in the "mind" it does not exist when not cognized by mind. Yet in the forest the tree exist. Charles DaCosta -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 19:19 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Existence Hi Sarah, Sarah : > In another sense, because there is only ever the present consciousness > cognizing its present object, nothing else exists. Just one world at a > time. What do you think? The wall behind the screen of your computer at this moment, is not cognized by any consciousness, at least not by a human consciousness. And yet, it seems to "exist" somehow, even though not cognized... You can look at it, and then you would see it, even though now you do not see it... Or would you say that everything dissapears when you don't cognize it, and then reappears when you cognize it??? That is a scary position to make... Daniel #63717 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:05 am Subject: Re: Bhavangacitta and object, no 3. nidive Hi Sarah, > However, I don't think we should take them too literally, otherwise > we end up with an understanding akin to those who believe > cosnciousness really is good and splendid if only we could remove > the dirt and see it clearly for what it is. But that's not what the Buddha said in that sutta. He didn't say that: "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that cosnciousness really is good and splendid, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." Instead, he said that: "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." One who discerns that as it actually is present discerns also that consciousness is anicca, dukkha and anatta, neither good nor splendid. > S: I think you've given good examples, but in the AN sutta being > discussed, I believe 'luminous' refers to the previous 'untainted' > (bhavanga) cittas as clarified in the commentary. As I mentioned, > although all cittas can be said to be clear (pandara), luminous > (pabhassara - as used in the quote you gave from the sutta) is > never used to refer to the defiled mind. > > However, I believe the essence of your comments is correct and the > sutta you quote is very apt. As you said, the essence of my comments is correct and the sutta quoted is apt, I see no point in challenging the commentaries of old. I don't take the commentaries of old as something uttered by the Buddha. And I don't see any point in complicating my understanding of this sutta with those commentaries of old. As I see it, my understanding of it is simple, easy, coherent, logical and brings out the whole meaning of the sutta. Regards, Swee Boon #63718 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nidive Hi Sarah, > > By the way, why can't satipatthana take on a concept? > S: Because satipatthana is the development of understanding and > awareness of realities, of truths, leading to the full penetration > of the Noble Truths. The understanding of concepts will never lead > us along the Path. This is what distinguishes the Middle Way or > Eightfold Path from all other paths. This is the way that dhammas > are seen for what they are -- namas and rupas only which are anicca, > dukkha and anatta. The One Way! > > Please ask for any further clarification as I think this is a very > good question of yours. Is it not possible to cling on to concepts? If the answer is yes and satipatthana can't take on a concept, how then is the release of clinging on to concepts to be discerned? Don't ideas "arise" dependent on namas, and with the ceasing of those namas, ideas also "cease" to be? Regards, Swee Boon #63719 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/27/06 9:19:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > >>By the way, why can't satipatthana take on a concept? > > >S: Because satipatthana is the development of understanding and > >awareness of realities, of truths, leading to the full penetration > >of the Noble Truths. The understanding of concepts will never lead > >us along the Path. This is what distinguishes the Middle Way or > >Eightfold Path from all other paths. This is the way that dhammas > >are seen for what they are -- namas and rupas only which are anicca, > >dukkha and anatta. The One Way! > > > >Please ask for any further clarification as I think this is a very > >good question of yours. > > Is it not possible to cling on to concepts? > > If the answer is yes and satipatthana can't take on a concept, how > then is the release of clinging on to concepts to be discerned? > > Don't ideas "arise" dependent on namas, and with the ceasing of those > namas, ideas also "cease" to be? > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ============================ My understanding is that the "concepts" that Sarah and others are saying cannot be the objects of pa~n~na are the intended *referents* of thinking, and, in fact do not actually exist as direct experiential phenomena. These would include include all the non-paramatthic "things" thought of, including tables, autos, computers, trees, ... without end. Even the paramatthic concepts are illusory, because the paramatthic concepts, the supposed paramattha dhammas *thought* of are *not* paramattha dhammas actually experienced. These concepts are not actual elements of direct experience. However, and this is of great importance I think: The unreal nature of concepts can still be "known" by pa~n~na by means of the examination, not of them (since they are unreal), but of the various mental operations that go under the name of 'thinking'. These sankharic operations are actual occurrences, and they and their nature *are* observable and understandable. By understanding these "thought activities" with wisdom, and seeing how various forms of avijja enter into them, it is possible to know the unreal nature of concepts. As to the apparent arising and ceasing of "ideas", as I see it. it is the various thinking activities that arise and cease, but the ideas themselves have no existence, and thus neither actually arise nor actually cease. So, you see, even my phenomenalism as such is odd, hmmm, Swee Boon? ;-)) With metta, Howard P.S. Yes, we sure do cling to concepts. In fact, I think that is the primary mode of clinging. We imagine unreal things (such as selves) as real, and our emotions and thinking are constantly engaged in proliferation with regard to such dreamed of things. Something needn't exist for us to be "involved with it"! To speak and think about and desire or despise an imagined-to-exist entity in no way requires its actual existence. (Our language habits are such that to use a name suggests an actual named entity. And that is a big problem for us.) #63720 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:59 am Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Sarah, > > Also, as far as clinging to those rupas (or not), there are > > astronauts who came across moon rocks and even brought some back. > > Do they or did they cling to the rupas "in those rocks"? > ... > S: I was giving an example for us, not for any unknown astronaut > members:-). of course, if they are on the moon or carrying moon- > rocks back home, there is bound to be clinging to what's seen, > touched and thought about with regard to them. It is interesting to see how the Buddha defines how there is clinging: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Saying, "Very good, lord," the monk... asked him a further question: "Is clinging the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, or is clinging separate from the five clinging-aggregates?" "Monk, clinging is neither the same thing as the five clinging- aggregates, nor is it separate from the five clinging-aggregates. Just that whatever passion & delight is there, that's the clinging there." ------------------------------------------------------------------- Did the astronauts on Apollo have delight with regard to those moon rocks upon making contact with them, even for just a few fleeting insignificant moments? Who are we to know? But for sure, I know I would and the delight would be greater if I were to land on Mars. Talk about sensuality again. Are there space scientists who were fascinated with those moon rocks, who are eager to analyse them? I am sure there are, that's why they brought them back. Do they have delight with regard to those moon rocks brought back from the moon, even for just a few fleeting insignificant moments? I am pretty sure they do. Also not to mention the fascination with Mars rocks. NASA sent the Spirit Rover recently to Mars equiped with instruments that can analyse those Mars rocks. It shows how there can be delight even with things that are so far away from us. Even clinging for just one moment is still clinging, and for the most part, you may not even notice it at all. Regards, Swee Boon #63721 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:31 am Subject: Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nidive Hi Howard, > My understanding is that the "concepts" that Sarah and others are > saying cannot be the objects of pa~n~na are the intended *referents* > of thinking, and, in fact do not actually exist as direct > experiential phenomena. These would include include all the non- > paramatthic "things" thought of, including tables, autos, computers, > trees, ... without end. I agree that thinking about a table is different from touching an actual real table. > Even the paramatthic concepts are illusory, because the paramatthic > concepts, the supposed paramattha dhammas *thought* of are *not* > paramattha dhammas actually experienced. These concepts are not > actual elements of direct experience. I don't quite agree here. In the Chachakka Sutta, the Buddha did say that the external idea-medium does in fact arise and fall away. If the external idea-medium is not concepts/ideas, then what is it, I am wondering? -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html "If anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of the intellect are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self.' So the intellect is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Ideas are the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the intellect is not-self and ideas are not-self. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > However, and this is of great importance I think: The unreal nature > of concepts can still be "known" by pa~n~na by means of the > examination, not of them (since they are unreal), but of the > various mental operations that go under the name of 'thinking'. > These sankharic operations are actual occurrences, and they and > their nature *are* observable and understandable. By understanding > these "thought activities" with wisdom, and seeing how various > forms of avijja enter into them, it is possible to know the unreal > nature of concepts. As to the apparent arising and ceasing of > "ideas", as I see it. it is the various thinking activities that > arise and cease, but the ideas themselves have no existence, and > thus neither actually arise nor actually cease. I see these sankharic operations as the internal intellect-medium that performs a double function of: (1) giving rise to ideas, and after giving rise to ideas, (2) acting as a condition for the arising of the intellect consciousness in conjunction with the ideas that it previously gave rise to. But I could possibly be wrong here. > So, you see, even my phenomenalism as such is odd, hmmm, Swee Boon? > ;-)) About physical form that is not cognized being not real and not existing, yes, that is very strange. What do you think of the Malunkyaputta Sutta? -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.095.than.html "What do you think, Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye that are unseen by you — that you have never before seen, that you don't see, and that are not to be seen by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?" "No, lord."1 "The sounds cognizable via the ear... "The aromas cognizable via the nose... "The flavors cognizable via the tongue... "The tactile sensations cognizable via the body... "The ideas cognizable via the intellect that are uncognized by you — that you have never before cognized, that you don't cognize, and that are not to be cognized by you: Do you have any desire or passion or love there?" "No, lord." -------------------------------------------------------------------- If form that is unseen by you is not real and don't exist, how can it still possibly be spoken of as "cognizable via the eye" by the Buddha, I am wondering? > P.S. Yes, we sure do cling to concepts. In fact, I think that is the > primary mode of clinging. We imagine unreal things (such as selves) > as real, and our emotions and thinking are constantly engaged in > proliferation with regard to such dreamed of things. Something > needn't exist for us to be "involved with it"! To speak and think > about and desire or despise an imagined-to-exist entity in > no way requires its actual existence. (Our language habits are such > that to use a name suggests an actual named entity. And that is a > big problem for us.) I agree that we do cling to ideas a lot. But I think ideas do in fact exist as something real "inside the mind". And it is possible to discern the arising and falling away of ideas. Regards, Swee Boon #63722 From: Daniel Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:48 pm Subject: Re: Self sbhtkk Hello Charles, Yes, I am new to buddhism. I tried to read books on Tibetan Buddhism for a while, but this was mostly on myself. As far as I understood, some "false me" is refuted after all, isn't it... from http://www.berzinarchives.com/e-books/spiritual_teacher/spiritual_teacher_16.htm\ l " Specifically, we need at least an intellectual understanding of the differentiation that Buddhism makes between a conventionally existent "me" and a totally fictitious or false "me." Western psychology speaks of a healthy ego and an inflated ego. A healthy ego is a sense of a conventionally existent "me." An inflated ego is a conception and belief that one's conventional "me" exists in the manner of a false "me." " Daniel ================== Hi Daniel, When ever I see post about stuff like this red flags are flown in my mind. This is because my interpretation/opinion is totally different. I have to ask, are you new to Buddhism or this type on "no such thing as a self" view? Charles DaCosta #63723 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >>[OK, I shall add 'serial word-abuser' to the list of my posting >>defects to be worked on ;-))] >> >> > >Hmmm...I'm not quite sure how to take this comment. What I wrote >wasn't really meant as a joke nor do I think it should be treated as >a joke. I would hope that you could take some constructive >criticism without turning it into some sort of joke. > > [You're quite right. I shall add 'Always take constructive criticism seriously :-(( ' to the list.] >> Kusala means 'wholesome' and references to consciousness (or its >>accompanying mental factors) of that quality. >> >> > >Yes, I know that kusala mean wholesome, but there are many different >degrees of wholesome, just as there are many different degrees of >wisdom (I was glad to see that Nina agreed with me on the importance >of being careful with the words we use). Language, by its very >nature, is imperfect; and some words are more imperfect than other >words. And Pali translated into English presents a great variety of >problems. To use a word and think that it completely covers the >meaning and that everyone should be in agreement, is a mistake in my >view. > Good points. I agree with what you say here. >>Samatha (tranquility, serenity) is one kind of kusala >>consciousness, characterised by the mental factor of >>passadhi (calm). At higher levels the mental factor >>of concentration (samadhi) becomes more prominent, >>and this may lead to absorption of the mental object >>and, eventually, jhana consciousness. >> > >Agreed. > > ;-)) >>The point I was making in my previous message is that >>concentration can be developed without it being the >>calm that is the kusala factor of samatha. >> >> > >Here, I either don't agree or I don't follow your meaning (I can't >tell which ;-)). > Neither, as it turns out ;-)) (you have followed my meaning, and we agree). >First, concentration cannot be developed without >calm. It is impossible to be agitated and highly concentrated- they >contradict each other. Second, it is possible to be calm and >concentrated and yet it isn't kusala; such as an expert sniper >aiming his gun at a potential, living target. > > Yes, this part of what I meant. For the rest, see my next comment. >>When the suttas talk about concentration (samadhi) they of >>course mean kusala samadhi, but samadhi can only be kusala >>if it accompanies a kusala mind-state. >> >>So unless there is understanding of how there may be kusala >>when the object of consciousness is a kasina, there cannot >>the the development of samatha. >> >> > >Focusing on a kasina can be kusala is there is calm and non- >attachment present. Do you not agree with the Vism.? > > Yes, there can be kusala citta that has a kasina as its object. But the question is, if the citta with kasina as object is to be kusala, by virtue of what will it be so? Merely having a kasina as object, even with the intention of developing samatha, does not make the citta kusala, and nowhere in the Vism does it say that that is so. >Have you >practiced kasina meditation in the past or are you speaking >theoretically? > > We are both speaking theoretically here because we are discussing our understanding of the position according to texts such as Vism. I don't think either of us would be impressed by the other's claim to have 'done it' ;-)), and anyway any such claim would need to be evaluated against the texts. >>Correction: a respected ex-bhikkhu. According to the bio you >>have supplied, the author disrobed in May 2004, after spending >>about 6 years as a bhikkhu. >> >> > >Yes, I am aware of that; I provided the bio after all.;-)) >Regardless of his disrobing, he was still a bhikkhu when he wrote >the article, and I view a bhikkhu as more of an expert on the dhamma >than a layperson. I know that this doesn't suit well with the KS >camp since KS isn't a bhikkhuni, but that's the way I feel. You can >call it my personal bias if you like. ;-)) > > ;-)) ;-)). >>May I suggest: consider, rather than 'follow'. That is to say, >>consider by reference to what is in the texts. The occupation or >>livelihood of the speaker is not that relevant. >> > >I disagree. A bhikkhu has practical knowledge while a layperson >usually has predominately theoretical knowledge with limited >practical knowledge. > > There is no such 'rule' to be found in the teachings. There were lay teachers (of monks) in the time of the Buddha (for example, Citta the householder, who has a section of his own in SN). In any event, practical knowledge is only of use if it is based on a correct intellectual understanding of the teachings. Anyone can 'practice' and gain knowledge, but unless the 'practice' is in accordance with the teachings the knowledge gained is of no use. Besides, even among bhikkhus there are widely differing views on the teachings, so you still have to discriminate between them somehow. Jon #63724 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? jonoabb Hi Howard Thanks for this detailed and well stated reply. upasaka@... wrote: > That's true, Jon, and it is a good point. For me, it is sufficient to >say that it arises as object of consciousness. (And, likewise, consciousness >arises only as awareness of object.) As I see it, they are mutually dependent, >with neither existing on its own or taking primacy. I admit that there is the >seeming of hardness as arising "in" some conventional object such as a table, >roadway surface, or fingernail, but I think we agree that that is a mere >seeming. > The presently experienced rupa is certainly *experienced* as object of consciousness. Whether it can also be said to *arise* as object of consciousness is the question I am raising for consideration. > My stance is a pragmatic one: The only arising of consciouness that >"I" ever experience is as the knowing of an object (rupa or nama), and the only >arising of a rupa "I" ever experience is as the content of consciousness. > By definition, the only rupas that are *experienced* are those that are object of consciousness. There is nothing of any significance in this. But the question of what conditions the *arising* of those rupas, and whether that arising precedes their being the object of consciousness, remains. I think it's a question that needs to be discussed independently of any assumptions we may make in regard to that matter. >>The assumption that the presently experienced rupa >>arises because (and only because) it is the object of consciousness is >>just that: an assumption. >> > >-------------------------------------------------- >Howard: > You are correct. The facts are unknowable. > > I would not say 'unknowable'. The facts are *unknown* to you and me, but are not in principle *unknowable*, since we are here talking about properties of actually experienced rupas. >I've explained the pragmatic basis for my making the >assumption. I can't do more. >-------------------------------------------------- > > I thought we had agreed it was an open question. What if the assumption we make is wrong? Why the need to make an assumption in the first place? An assumption is after all only a 'best guess' (based on personal bias ;-)). >>I'm wondering if your assumption based on subjective experience or on >>conceptual thinking. Is there anything about the actual experience of >>presently-hardness that suggests to you that that rupa could not have >>arisen already before becoming the object of that experience? >> > >------------------------------------------------- >Howard: > It seems to me that the "hardness-content-of-conciousness" would be >something different from, though related to, an alleged unexperienced >"hardness-thing". I cannot, however, assert with any assurance that there does not exist >such a consciousness-independent thing that serves to create the >felt-hardness experience. It might well exist, but it is merely hypothesized, and not a >matter of experience. >--------------------------------------------------- > The only question I am raising is whether the experienced rupa itself is consciousness-independent (as you put it). It is of course true (by definition) that experienced rupas are only ever experienced as objects of consciousness, but this observation does not tell us anything about their arising. Again, while the facts of this may be unknown to the likes of you and me, they are not in principle unknowable, being matters relating to actually experienced rupas. I seem to be repeating things said in previous posts, for which I apologise. Perhaps we have taken things about as far as they can go for this round ;-)). You're welcome to have the last say on it. Jon #63725 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. hantun1 Dear Sof, It is Jataka story 526. The young boy or the young hermit was named “Isisinga.” The deva king persuaded King Brahmadatta, who sent his daughter “Nilikaa” to seduce the young hermit. The deva king first stopped raining in the country for three years. He threatened the King that he would continue the drought till the young hermit was seduced and his siila broken. So the King had to send his daughter. The daughter went to the young hermit while the Father Hermit was away, dressed as a hermit. The young hermit who had never seen a woman before thought she was like him, so he invited her inside his hut. Once inside, she showed him her private part and said that “it” was bitten off by a bear. She asked him to treat her by putting “his” inside her. That was how the young hermit’s siila was broken. When the Father Hermit came back and heard the story he admonished him and asked him to observe siila again, and the young hermit regained his former jhaana states. I do not have English translation. Han --- sofgld wrote: > Hi all, > I am a newbie looking for the title of a story and > links. #63726 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/27/06 11:34:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >My understanding is that the "concepts" that Sarah and others are > >saying cannot be the objects of pa~n~na are the intended *referents* > >of thinking, and, in fact do not actually exist as direct > >experiential phenomena. These would include include all the non- > >paramatthic "things" thought of, including tables, autos, computers, > >trees, ... without end. > > I agree that thinking about a table is different from touching an > actual real table. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I see it as a bit more than that. When we "touch the actual table" I would say that we are not experiencing table, but hardness. There is thinking that includes many different experiences thought of as a unit and called "table". -------------------------------------------- > > >Even the paramatthic concepts are illusory, because the paramatthic > >concepts, the supposed paramattha dhammas *thought* of are *not* > >paramattha dhammas actually experienced. These concepts are not > >actual elements of direct experience. > > I don't quite agree here. In the Chachakka Sutta, the Buddha did say > that the external idea-medium does in fact arise and fall away. If the > external idea-medium is not concepts/ideas, then what is it, I am > wondering? -------------------------------------- Howard: That term 'external idea-medium' is interesting. I shall have to look over this sutta carefully. I would find it interesting to see the Buddha pointing to ideas as mental objects that have the same experiential reality as hardness, for example, and that arise and cease. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest to adjust my thinking on this particular matter should I see the Buddha get explicit with regard to it. ------------------------------------ > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html > > "If anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self,' that wouldn't be > tenable. The arising &falling away of the intellect are discerned. ------------------------------------ Howard: Arising and falling away of thought processes is perfectly clear and acceptable to me. --------------------------------- > And when its arising &falling away are discerned, it would follow > that 'My self arises &falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable > if anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self.' So the intellect > is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Ideas are the self,' that > wouldn't be tenable... Thus the intellect is not-self and ideas are > not-self. --------------------------------------- Howard: Well, just because he speaks of ideas is not sufficient to conclude that they are intended to be paramattha dhammas. --------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >However, and this is of great importance I think: The unreal nature > >of concepts can still be "known" by pa~n~na by means of the > >examination, not of them (since they are unreal), but of the > >various mental operations that go under the name of 'thinking'. > >These sankharic operations are actual occurrences, and they and > >their nature *are* observable and understandable. By understanding > >these "thought activities" with wisdom, and seeing how various > >forms of avijja enter into them, it is possible to know the unreal > >nature of concepts. As to the apparent arising and ceasing of > >"ideas", as I see it. it is the various thinking activities that > >arise and cease, but the ideas themselves have no existence, and > >thus neither actually arise nor actually cease. > > I see these sankharic operations as the internal intellect-medium that > performs a double function of: > (1) giving rise to ideas, and after giving rise to ideas, > (2) acting as a condition for the arising of the intellect > consciousness in conjunction with the ideas that it previously gave > rise to. > > But I could possibly be wrong here. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I very much appreciate that sort of attitude! I also can be quite wrong - about a great deal! Unless we truly *know* something, a rare occurrence I think, we should not be overy certain. I really like the brief statement by a Korean Son master: "Only don't know!" ------------------------------------------ > > >So, you see, even my phenomenalism as such is odd, hmmm, Swee Boon? > >;-)) > > About physical form that is not cognized being not real and not > existing, yes, that is very strange. What do you think of the > Malunkyaputta Sutta? > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.095.than.html > > "What do you think, Malunkyaputta: the forms cognizable via the eye > that are unseen by you — that you have never before seen, that you > don't see, and that are not to be seen by you: Do you have any desire > or passion or love there?" > > "No, lord."1 > > "The sounds cognizable via the ear... > > "The aromas cognizable via the nose... > > "The flavors cognizable via the tongue... > > "The tactile sensations cognizable via the body... > > "The ideas cognizable via the intellect that are uncognized by you — > that you have never before cognized, that you don't cognize, and that > are not to be cognized by you: Do you have any desire or passion or > love there?" > > "No, lord." > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If form that is unseen by you is not real and don't exist, how can it > still possibly be spoken of as "cognizable via the eye" by the Buddha, > I am wondering? ------------------------------------------- Howard: These may be cognized in other mindstreams. Or they might be mere unrealized potentials. Or they might be present in one's mindstream, but subliminally, below the level of awareness. But I must admit that the example is a good one. --------------------------------------- > > >P.S. Yes, we sure do cling to concepts. In fact, I think that is the > >primary mode of clinging. We imagine unreal things (such as selves) > >as real, and our emotions and thinking are constantly engaged in > >proliferation with regard to such dreamed of things. Something > >needn't exist for us to be "involved with it"! To speak and think > >about and desire or despise an imagined-to-exist entity in > >no way requires its actual existence. (Our language habits are such > >that to use a name suggests an actual named entity. And that is a > >big problem for us.) > > I agree that we do cling to ideas a lot. But I think ideas do in fact > exist as something real "inside the mind". And it is possible to > discern the arising and falling away of ideas. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I used to think so as well, and I know exactly what you mean, but I tend not to think so now. Ah, well! ;-) --------------------------------------- > > Regards, > Swee Boon > > ==================== With metta, Howard #63727 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/27/06 6:44:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > I seem to be repeating things said in previous posts, for which I > apologise. Perhaps we have taken things about as far as they can go for > this round ;-)). You're welcome to have the last say on it. > ======================= I think we may well have taken things as far as possible, at least for now. It is clear to me that I am speaking of something that is different from what you are understanding me to be speaking of, but I cannot find a way to make myself clear to you on this. The problem, and I can see it clearly, is that our perspective is different. We are trying to compare apples and oranges. There is a perspective gap between us on this issue, but it is one that I am unable to properly express. Sorry - I very much wish I could do better. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard #63728 From: "sofgld" Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. sofgld Hi Han Thank you very much for your help. You're full of knowledge! I asked this in 3 places, only u can give me a correct answer! Now I can dig deeper about this story via search engine. Once again, thank you ! Kind regards Sof --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sof, > > It is Jataka story 526. > #63730 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Sarah and Swee Boon, ----------------- S: > A good discussion on the control of dosa! ------------------ Thanks, but I think Swee Boon and I have reached a standoff. Either dosa can be controlled (in the ultimate sense) or it can't. The entire Dhamma depends on the answer. Of course, the same could be said for many other questions. For example, you and Swee Boon (among others) are currently asking, "Do ideas arise and fall away (in the ultimate sense)?" Ven. Thanissaro and the Access to Insight people would have us believe they do. The fate of the Dhamma depends on your decision! Well, maybe it's not as dramatic as that, but you know what I mean. :-) ------------------------- KH: > > The conditions for the dhammas of the present five > khandhas were contained in the dhammas of the immediately preceding > five khandhas, .... S: Yes and of course also in long past dhammas ------------------------- Also? Aren't there are only the presently arisen dhammas! At the time of the immediately preceding dhammas, weren't there only the then-presently-arisen dhammas? :-) ------------------------- S: > , the accompanying dhammas and the present object which may be any kind of concept too. (You clarify all this is your next post as I recall) ------------------------ I think I left concepts out. As I remember, a concept can condition dhammas by object condition and by natural decisive support condition. But, as you have explained many times, it is not the concept itself that does the conditioning. Namas, by taking a concept as their object, are ultimately responsible for object condition. And the same namas, by creating that concept, are ultimately responsible for its NDS conditioning ability. ------------------------------------ KH: > > and the conditions for next five khandhas to come are > all contained in the dhammas that are present now. ... S: With same additional comments perhaps? -------------------------------------- Perhaps! :-) ----------------------------------------------------- KH: > >It is true that a > kamma (cetana cetasika), for example, that arose in the long distant > past can condition the next vipaka citta, but that kamma is not > sitting out in space somewhere waiting for its chance. It fell away > permanently as soon as it arose. However, its conditioning influence > has been bound up in the dhammas of every moment that followed it. .... S: > I like the way you put this. 'Conditioning influence has been bound up..' A nice change to 'accumulated ' and 'force'. --------------------- Thanks! The conventional world contains some excellent similes for the way conditions accumulate, doesn' it? A beautiful shady tree, for example might contain a hollow limb that is liable to fall on anyone sheltering below. So it is like a kusala citta that contains accumulations for akusala. And a wet, stormy day contains the all the meteorological ingredients for a beautiful sunny change. Who knows which accumulated qualities will have their effects and when? (Not the Bureau of Meteorology, that's for sure!) :-) ----------------------------------- KH: > > So, coming back to our original question: where, in all of this, is there any control over the arising/non-arising, of dosa? .... S: > That's it! Only dhammas arising and falling, performing their functions, accumulating and so on. Of course, the effect of the present dhammas now - the wise or unwise attention, the sati and so on cannot be overestimated either. --------------------------------------- No, it can't, which brings us back to the beginning of the discussion. Howard mentioned being aware of anger whenever it was noticeably present. But, as soon as there is any idea of trying, or of directing sati, the intended object has gone, hasn't it? And a concept has arisen in its place. Can dhammas possibly be controlled in any way whatsoever? I hope Swee Boon's will give us his decision soon. Ken H PS: Glad to hear you've settled in again at Big Wave Bay. I imagine only locals are allowed to use that other name. Or is it a trick to keep tourists away? > Certainly > different etiquette applies to all we learnt in Noosa:-)). Just shows that > sila isn't bound up in a set of rules, perhaps? Leaving sila aside for the moment: if I had my way, there'd be only one rule in surfing - RIDE THE SHORTEST BOARD YOU CAN! :-) #63731 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:09 am Subject: Kasina meditation is evil? (Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna) buddhatrue Hi Jon, Jon: Yes, there can be kusala citta that has a kasina as its object. But the question is, if the citta with kasina as object is to be kusala, by virtue of what will it be so? Merely having a kasina as object, even with the intention of developing samatha, does not make the citta kusala, and nowhere in the Vism does it say that that is so. James: What is your point? Could you please just state your point? I am trying to read between the lines of your comments, to get to your point, but I'm not sure how successful I am. It sounds as if you believe that focusing on a kasina isn't kusala, that it isn't wholesome. That possibly it could be evil? Maybe if someone meditated on a kasina they could become possessed by the devil?? ;-)) Ohhhhh…how spooky! ;-)) Seriously, though, I don't get your point. We seem to get as far as: focusing on a kasina may or may not be kusala…and then that's it. What's your final point? Jon: I don't think either of us would be impressed by the other's claim to have 'done it' ;-)), and anyway any such claim would need to be evaluated against the texts. James: Don't assume such a thing for me- I would be impressed and would take you very seriously if you stated that you had achieved jhana (and I had reason to believe you). In that case, you would know more about the subject than myself. And, no, I would not need to evaluate your comments against the texts! That would be really stupid! Good lord, Jon, there is a real life out there!!! Not everything is in the texts. Jon: There were lay teachers (of monks) in the time of the Buddha (for example, Citta the householder, who has a section of his own in SN). James: As far as I know, Citta the householder did not teach monks, he learned the dhamma from monks. The Buddha declared him to be a great expounder of the dhamma, but not a teacher of the dhamma. In other words, he had memorized a lot of dhamma by asking monks a lot of questions, and he could answer monk's questions when they tested his knowledge of the dhamma- but that doesn't mean he taught the dhamma to monks. (I don't have my copy of SN anymore so I am not entirely sure of this. Please give me a sutta reference where he teaches monks the dhamma.) Jon: Besides, even among bhikkhus there are widely differing views on the teachings, so you still have to discriminate between them somehow. James: This is true, but I am still more apt to listen to a monk over a householder. Like I said, it is my personal bias. ;-) Metta, James #63732 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:35 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 533- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd There are different degrees of abstinence and the Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part III, Chapter VI, 103, 104) distinguishes between three kinds: abstaining “inspite of opportunity obtained”, abstaining because of observance (of precepts) and abstaining by way of eradication. As to the first kind we read: * "When they who have not undertaken to observe any precept, but who reflecting on their own birth, age, experience, etc. and saying “It is not fit for us to do such a bad thing”, do not transgress an object actually met with, the abstinence is to be considered as “in spite of opportunity”…" * Thus, also those who have not undertaken the precepts can have shame and fear of blame and abstain from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. Although the opportunity for wrong speech or wrong action presents itself, they abstain from it when they take into consideration the family they belong to, the education they have had and their experience. They do not want to behave like fools and they fear the consequences of evil conduct. The second kind of abstention is by way of observance of the precepts. When someone has undertaken the precepts and he considers it beneficial to observe them this can be a condition to abstain from wrong conduct. There are many degrees of observing the precepts. One’s morality, síla, may be limited (Vis. I, 31). Someone may have the intention not to kill living beings, but when his health or his life is in danger, or his relatives insist that he should kill, for example, insects, he may not be able to observe the precept which is abstention from killing. Thus his morality is limited, it is not enduring. Only through the development of right understanding can morality become enduring. The sotåpanna has eradicated wrong view and thus, when he observes the precepts, he does not take the observing for self. He will never transgress the five precepts, even if his life is in danger, and thus his morality is of a higher degree than the morality of the non-ariyan. We read about the third kind of abstinence, abstinence by way of eradication, mentioned by the Atthasåliní, that it should be understood as associated with the ariyan path: * "… When that Path has once arisen, not even the thought, “we will kill a creature”, arises in the ariyans." * ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63733 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, Apologies for the slow response. --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I am sorry I do not quite understand what you are > trying to say. > > Are you confirming the following statement? > As we have seen, confidence in wholesomeness ( > saddha), shame (hiri), fear of blame (ottappa) and > contentment are among the proximate causes of the > abstinences. When there is contentment or fewness of > wishes there are favourable conditions for observing > morality. ... S: Yes! ... > > Or, are you saying that although there may be the > above mentioned conditions for observing morality, in > actual fact, it is not so easy to do so, and it > doesn't mean that there won't be harsh speech and so > on? ... S: Yes, this also! However, I don't think so much in terms of 'to do'. If the above conditions are in place there will be the abstinence from wrong speech and so on at that time. If these conditions are not in place a few moments later, then again there may be conditions for harsh speech or deeds. No one to do anything, but just the understanding of these various factors, such as saddha, hiri, ottappa and contentment to be developed as I see it. I think the third point I was also reflecting out loud on was that easily there can also be clinging to having/developing wholesome states such as these when we read about these reminders. Don't we often wish to be good people, people who refrain from harsh speech and so on in a day? There's been a lot of discussion on the list recently about anger and harsh speech, so I thought this was relevant. I only included your name (& Phil's) because you both kindly take a keen interest in the 'Cetasikas' and I'm always glad when you add any of your comments, like the helpful ones you added on the 6 pairs and their opposites (which I know Nina will be glad to see as well). Metta, Sarah ======== #63734 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: <...> > Also not to mention the fascination with Mars rocks. NASA sent the > Spirit Rover recently to Mars equiped with instruments that can > analyse those Mars rocks. It shows how there can be delight even with > things that are so far away from us. .... S: Good points. Clinging to any object appearing now through the senses or to concepts about past, future or present objects too. .... > > Even clinging for just one moment is still clinging, and for the most > part, you may not even notice it at all. .... S: Exactly so. Clinging arises all the time during a day. We don't need to be concerned with the astronauts' clinging -- plenty arising directly to be known:-). I don't think we have any disagreement here? Metta, Sarah ======== #63735 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhavangacitta and object, no 3. sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: <...> > Instead, he said that: > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming > defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns > that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the > well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of > the mind." > > One who discerns that as it actually is present discerns also that > consciousness is anicca, dukkha and anatta, neither good nor splendid. ... S: Apart from moments of kusala which are good, but even these are anicca, dukkha and anatta. .... > > > S: I think you've given good examples, but in the AN sutta being > > discussed, I believe 'luminous' refers to the previous 'untainted' > > (bhavanga) cittas as clarified in the commentary. As I mentioned, > > although all cittas can be said to be clear (pandara), luminous > > (pabhassara - as used in the quote you gave from the sutta) is > > never used to refer to the defiled mind. > > > > However, I believe the essence of your comments is correct and the > > sutta you quote is very apt. > > As you said, the essence of my comments is correct and the sutta > quoted is apt, I see no point in challenging the commentaries of old. > I don't take the commentaries of old as something uttered by the > Buddha. And I don't see any point in complicating my understanding of > this sutta with those commentaries of old. As I see it, my > understanding of it is simple, easy, coherent, logical and brings out > the whole meaning of the sutta. .... S: Fair enough. For me, the commentary adds more depth and richness, but it's a personal matter and no one needs to read or consider them further if they don't find it helpful. For most of us, it's a very recent thing to have any access to any of the commentary notes at all and we have to thank B.Bodhi for his role in this access. Thanks again for your comments and the sutta you added. Metta, Sarah ========= #63736 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:35 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Existence sarahprocter... Hi Charles D (& Daniel), --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > The idea that things "exist" or "don't really exist" is really based on > location not the concept of "reality." > > What I mean is that things "exist" or "don't really exist" in the mind. > This > does not relate to the individual existence of something. The tree > really > exist as the concept tree and yet exist in the mind when we cognize it. .... S: When we think about the tree, it only exists in our imagination. ... > But > in the "mind" it does not exist when not cognized by mind. Yet in the > forest > the tree exist. ... S: Yes, when there's no thinking about 'tree' it doesn't exist because it's a concept. In the forest, the rupas of the tree arise and fall away, but all that can ever be directly experienced with regard to the tree are visible object, hardness or tangible object, smell, taste(!) or sound. When the Buddha taught about the 6 worlds, it was with regard to what could be directly experienced. As Howard always stresses, any existing dhamma outside these worlds is completely unknown and for all intents and purposes doesn not exist at all for us. Agree? Metta, Sarah ====== #63737 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Existence sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon (& Daniel), --- nidive wrote: > Hi Daniel & Sarah, > > > > In another sense, because there is only ever the present > > > consciousness cognizing its present object, nothing else exists. > > > Just one world at a time. What do you think? > > > The wall behind the screen of your computer at this moment, is not > > cognized by any consciousness, at least not by a human > > consciousness. And yet, it seems to "exist" somehow, even though > > not cognized... You can look at it, and then you would see it, even > > though now you do not see it... Or would you say that > > everything dissapears when you don't cognize it, and then reappears > > when you cognize it??? That is a scary position to make... > > That is indeed a scary position to make and I think anyone who makes > that kind of position is very likely a patient at the Institute of > Mental Health. .... S: And yet I think it's exactly the position made by the Buddha. In Thai they say 'mai mii, liao mii, liao ha mii mai', literally: 'there isn't, then there is, then gone'. Perhaps someone can quote the verse from the sutta for this as I have to go out now. When we're in a deep sleep, no objects appear through the senses, then we open our eyes and visible object appears, then gone and so on. One world at a time. ... > > I don't think that's what Sarah means, but we will wait for her reply > before we 'interrogate' her further. .... S: Of course, even when we're fast asleep, there are the rupas of the wall behind the computer screen arising and falling away. But they are unknown and not experienced. Satipatthana is the path of being aware and understanding those dhammas which appear, not those which don't appear. Metta, Sarah ======== #63738 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. I have just one thing to clarify. That is on your following statement. [However, I don't think so much in terms of 'to do'. If the above conditions are in place there will be the abstinence from wrong speech and so on at that time. If these conditions are not in place a few moments later, then again there may be conditions for harsh speech or deeds. No one to do anything, but just the understanding of these various factors, such as saddha, hiri, ottappa and contentment to be developed as I see it.] The above statement by itself is very clear. I do not want to jump the gun, but you will soon be presenting the different degrees of abstinence: abstaining in spite of opportunity obtained (sampatta-virati), abstaining because of observance of precepts (samaadaana-virati), and abstaining by way of eradication (samuccheda-virati). Will these viratis also arise only if there are conditions for them to arise, and they will not arise if the conditions are not there, as there is “no one” to do anything, and “no one” to observe the precepts even? Respectfully, Han #63739 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. sarahprocter... Hi Sof (& Han), Welcome to DSG! --- sofgld wrote: > Hi Han > Thank you very much for your help. You're full of knowledge! > I asked this in 3 places, only u can give me a correct answer! > > Now I can dig deeper about this story via search engine. > Once again, thank you ! .... S: Why don't you tell us about your particular interest in the story? I agree that Han is full of knowledge! If there are any other details you'd like from the English translation that you can't find on a search engine, pls ask and we can help. Can I encourage you to introduce yourself a little such as telling us where you live, your interest in the Buddha's teachings and so on? Thanks for your interesting thread! Metta, Sarah ======= #63740 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/28/06 2:24:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > ------------------------- > KH: >>The conditions for the dhammas of the present five > >khandhas were contained in the dhammas of the immediately preceding > >five khandhas, > .... > S: Yes and of course also in long past dhammas > ------------------------- > > Also? Aren't there are only the presently arisen dhammas! At the time > of the immediately preceding dhammas, weren't there only the > then-presently-arisen dhammas? :-) > =========================== I think that Sarah makes an important point here. I don't believe it is said in the tipitaka that all conditioning is via immediate contiguiity. The mere occurrence of A at some time long the past, its mere mere occurrence then, already at that time may well have constituted one of several requisite conditions for the arising of B now. Not all conditioning need reduce to immediate contiguity, though our conventional experiences often suggest otherwise. With metta, Howard #63741 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Existence upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Charles D, and Swee Boon) - Sarah, I am delighted! I copy below material from two consecutive posts of yours in which you express a position that is close to mine as regards the Dhamma being a phenomenological teaching & practice. My position goes further than yours in its willingness to make an "Occam's Razor" jump, but it is clear to me that our perspectives are - or have become - far closer than it seemed previously. With metta, Howard _______________________ S: When we think about the tree, it only exists in our imagination. ... > But > in the "mind" it does not exist when not cognized by mind. Yet in the > forest > the tree exist. ... S: Yes, when there's no thinking about 'tree' it doesn't exist because it's a concept. In the forest, the rupas of the tree arise and fall away, but all that can ever be directly experienced with regard to the tree are visible object, hardness or tangible object, smell, taste(!) or sound. When the Buddha taught about the 6 worlds, it was with regard to what could be directly experienced. As Howard always stresses, any existing dhamma outside these worlds is completely unknown and for all intents and purposes doesn not exist at all for us. --------------------------------------------- > > The wall behind the screen of your computer at this moment, is not > > cognized by any consciousness, at least not by a human > > consciousness. And yet, it seems to "exist" somehow, even though > > not cognized... You can look at it, and then you would see it, even > > though now you do not see it... Or would you say that > > everything dissapears when you don't cognize it, and then reappears > > when you cognize it??? That is a scary position to make... > > That is indeed a scary position to make and I think anyone who makes > that kind of position is very likely a patient at the Institute of > Mental Health. .... S: And yet I think it's exactly the position made by the Buddha. In Thai they say 'mai mii, liao mii, liao ha mii mai', literally: 'there isn't, then there is, then gone'. Perhaps someone can quote the verse from the sutta for this as I have to go out now. When we're in a deep sleep, no objects appear through the senses, then we open our eyes and visible object appears, then gone and so on. One world at a time. ... > > I don't think that's what Sarah means, but we will wait for her reply > before we 'interrogate' her further. .... S: Of course, even when we're fast asleep, there are the rupas of the wall behind the computer screen arising and falling away. But they are unknown and not experienced. Satipatthana is the path of being aware and understanding those dhammas which appear, not those which don't appear. #63742 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:13 am Subject: Re: Existence nidive Hi Sarah & Daniel, > When we're in a deep sleep, no objects appear through the senses, > then we open our eyes and visible object appears, then gone and > so on. One world at a time. > S: Of course, even when we're fast asleep, there are the rupas of > the wall behind the computer screen arising and falling away. But > they are unknown and not experienced. True. We experience only a single sense out of the six senses at any one time. Our experience of the wall may go "on & off", but the physical wall itself don't disappear & reappear in sync with our experience of it. Regards, Swee Boon #63743 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Existence nidive Hi Howard (& Sarah), > My position goes further than yours in its willingness to make an > Occam's Razor" jump, but it is clear to me that our perspectives > are - or have become - far closer than it seemed previously. In what way does your position go further than Sarah's? As far as I know, Sarah did say that the rupas of the wall continue to arise and fall away even though we may have no experience of those rupas at certain points of time. And this is exactly my position as well. Regards, Swee Boon #63744 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Existence upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Sarah, and Daniel) - In a message dated 9/28/06 9:17:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Sarah &Daniel, > > >When we're in a deep sleep, no objects appear through the senses, > >then we open our eyes and visible object appears, then gone and > >so on. One world at a time. > > >S: Of course, even when we're fast asleep, there are the rupas of > >the wall behind the computer screen arising and falling away. But > >they are unknown and not experienced. > > True. We experience only a single sense out of the six senses at any > one time. Our experience of the wall may go "on &off", but the > physical wall itself don't disappear &reappear in sync with our > experience of it. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ========================= I'd like to put forward an alternative scenario, not with the purpose of foisting it on anyone, but only to present it as another possibility. What I'm addressing is the statement "Our experience of the wall may go "on &off", but the physical wall itself don't disappear &reappear in sync with our experience of it." The alternative scenario, unverifiable for sure, and definitely not asserted by me as fact but only as possibility, is that there is no actual external wall or even actual underlying "external rupas", nor has/have there been. Instead, there have been dhammas experienced, contents of conscious, a variety of experiential conditions in various namarupic streams, that led to "internal rupas" repeatedly being experienced that are identified as constituting an external wall that gets repeatedly "seen". The whole matter could be viewed as one of multiple interacting streams of experiential conditions. In this scenario, rupas are experiential phenomena, primary object-content of experience. There is a regularity and pattern to the conditionality involved, and what happens is a matter of causes and conditions, but all experiential - direct, paramatthic (experiential) conditions leading to others, arising and ceasing, and upon which our thought processing serves as a script writer. Another way of putting it: This scenario amounts to saying that so-called external reality is actually a virtual reality. It is *like* a dream. I close with a disclaimer: This alternative scenario is given here just as "food for thought", and not as a thesis I wish to defend. Whether this perspective is correct or not, still dukkha, its cause, the reality of nibbana, and the path to realizing nibbana remain. Relinquishment remains at the core of the Dhamma, and not particular world-views. With metta, Howard #63745 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Existence upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/28/06 9:53:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard (& Sarah), > > >My position goes further than yours in its willingness to make an > >Occam's Razor" jump, but it is clear to me that our perspectives > >are - or have become - far closer than it seemed previously. > > In what way does your position go further than Sarah's? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Please see the "alternative scenario" in the post I wrote just a couple minutes ago. Considering that scenario as possible is something I don't believe Sarah does, but I do. It is in that way that my position probably goes further than Sarah's. ---------------------------------------- > > As far as I know, Sarah did say that the rupas of the wall continue to > arise and fall away even though we may have no experience of those > rupas at certain points of time. And this is exactly my position as > well. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I understand. It is a position that countenances rupas that exist as other than experiential phenomena. It is a position in line with common sense and conventional thought, and it could well be correct. -------------------------------------- > > Regards, > Swee Boon > > ==================== With metta, Howard #63746 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Existence nidive Hi Howard, > The alternative scenario, unverifiable for sure, and definitely not > asserted by me as fact but only as possibility, is that there is no > actual external wall or even actual underlying "external rupas", nor > has/have there been. Instead, there have been dhammas experienced, > contents of conscious, a variety of experiential conditions in > various namarupic streams, that led to "internal rupas" repeatedly > being experienced that are identified as constituting an external > wall that gets repeatedly "seen". The whole matter could be viewed > as one of multiple interacting streams of experiential conditions. > In this scenario, rupas are experiential phenomena, primary object- > content of experience. There is a regularity and pattern to the > conditionality involved, and what happens is a matter of causes and > conditions, but all experiential - direct, paramatthic > (experiential) conditions leading to others, arising and ceasing, > and upon which our thought processing serves as a script writer. > Another way of putting it: This scenario amounts to saying that > so-called external reality is actually a virtual reality. It is > *like* a dream. I must say I don't completely understand the scenario that you are describing. I think it's too complicated (my head spins :-)). In any case, the Buddha did say that the form-medium, the sound- medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium and the tactile-sensation- medium are all external. I take this to mean that there are actual underlying "external rupas". > Yes, I understand. It is a position that countenances rupas that > exist as other than experiential phenomena. It is a position in > line with common sense and conventional thought, and it could well > be correct. I see this as a position that the Buddha takes as well. Regards, Swee Boon #63747 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:14 am Subject: Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self nidive Hi Ken H, > Right understanding of a presently arisen reality is the function of > panna. Like all conditioned dhammas, panna arises when the > conditions for its arising are in place. In that case, panna will never arise. The assumption that there will be conditions that will come into place for the arising of panna is just that, an assumption. It is pure wishful thinking, something like praying to God in vain. > What did you think of my interpretation of "mind" (as a fleeting > paramattha dhamma)? Can anything make that sort of mind less angry > than it is? In that case, the Buddha says of such a person as one who has no development of the mind. Regards, Swee Boon #63748 From: Daniel Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:27 am Subject: Re: Existence sbhtkk Hi all, Sarah: > When the Buddha taught about the 6 worlds, it was with regard to what > could be directly experienced. As Howard always stresses, any existing > dhamma outside these worlds is completely unknown and for all intents and > purposes doesn not exist at all for us. But you just wrote an email about what lies outside the 6 worlds, didn't you? And I just wrote a sentence about it. And while you wrote about that email , you also thought about what is outside of the six worlds, did not you... So perhaps it does exist in some manner... No? What is the definition for "the sixth consciousness\the sixth sense"? What is the sutras definition, and what definition would you give it yourself, to the specific way in which you use it? If I want to check if a certain phenomena is cognized with my sixth consciousness, or not, what check can I perform? What is the definition for "nama" and "rupa" by the way? Yours, Daniel #63749 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Ken) - In a message dated 9/28/06 12:21:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Ken H, > > >Right understanding of a presently arisen reality is the function of > >panna. Like all conditioned dhammas, panna arises when the > >conditions for its arising are in place. > > In that case, panna will never arise. The assumption that there will > be conditions that will come into place for the arising of panna is > just that, an assumption. It is pure wishful thinking, something like > praying to God in vain. ----------------------------------------- Howard: IMO ... exactly! In the past I have used the phrase "relying on dumb luck". ;-) In a recent discussion with good friends in the Dhamma, it was mentioned that beneficial results (pa~n~na being a prime example) may come about due to accumulation of requisite kusala conditions. I pointed out, however, that akusala conditions can accumulate just as well as kusala ones can, and, inasmuch as there are many more akusala states for us than kusala, the prognosis would seem to be a hopeless one if there is reliance on "whatever happens to occur". Of course, to me it is crystal clear that the Buddha urged and detailed the conventional carrying out of conventionally volitional actions that cultivate kusala states and the lessening of akusala ones, and that is exactly the way out of the apparent impass. (Underlying all this "conventional stuff", of course, are realities - but that is beside the point.) ========================= With metta, Howard #63750 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self ken_aitch Hi Howard (and Sarah), At times like these I wish I had been a better student. It would be nice to have a clear mental picture of the paccayas: ----------- H: > I think that Sarah makes an important point here. I don't believe it is said in the tipitaka that all conditioning is via immediate contiguiity. ----------- A quick check of the Buddhist Dictionary reminds me that contiguity condition (samanantara-paccaya) is the way citta and cetasikas condition the immediately following citta and cetasikas. I agree I seemed to be lauding this as the be-all and end-all of conditions, but I am aware of a difference between the present dhammas and the influence of previous dhammas that lies latent in them. (Maybe it doesn't lie *in* them exactly; maybe it lies in the way they are juxtapositioned, or something like that. (?)) ---------------------------------- H: > The mere occurrence of A at some time long the past, its mere mere occurrence then, already at that time may well have constituted one of several requisite conditions for the arising of B now. Not all conditioning need reduce to immediate contiguity, though our conventional experiences often suggest otherwise. ----------------------------------- I take your point. I suppose, though, that even our conventional experiences tell us nothing is as it seems. I gave the example yesterday of a beautiful shady tree with a dangerously hollow limb. Contiguity condition would suggest we are in for a relaxing respite from the heat, but termite condition might have something far less pleasant in store.:-) Ken H PS: Your conversation with Sarah, Swee Boon, Daniel & Co. on external rupas has reached a tantalizing new stage. I will join in when I get back from Brisbane in a day or two. That is, if you haven't reached a unanimous conclusion by then. :-) KH #63751 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:54 pm Subject: Re: some points on art philofillet Hi Jon and all James and his slavish obsession with art, his kneeling in blind adoration at the temple of Da Vinci and Chagal and the other pagan whores of paint and pallette, well, it has me thinking. (haha just kidding james, I know you've said all you want to on this topic and wish you hadn't brought it up. Too late! :) > An appreciation of art need not be seen as being in conflict with an > appreciation of the Dhamma. I think the texts make it clear that while > all worldly attachments will be given up eventually, there is no need > for them to be somehow 'dealt with' first in order for the development > of insight to proceed. As you may know, my sutta study has been devoted over a year to SN 35, the ayatanas, so naturally enough it seems to me that the Buddha did in fact teach in order to gently begin to take the pleasure out of enjoying art and other sensual pleasures that arise through the six doors. There are countless suttas that warn that believing the dhammas which appear as visble object, sound, taste, touch, smeall and mind object are beautiful, clinginging to them, delighting in them, is the way suffering is accumulated. There's not much doubt about that. So the way we enjoy art defintely is a little bit more sober than it used to be. Still enjoying it, but reflecting on it with right intellectual understanding, reflection on vipaka, on javanas, on papanca. We are no longer wandering through the musuem with our sense doors wide open, drinking it all in. Those days are gone, and that's ok. (Well, there are many days when we *are* drinking it all in mindlessly but the days of celebrating that as something wholesome are gone.) There is guarding of the sense doors more and more often, which usually doesn't mean averting the eyes from attractive visible object, for example, before we look at it, but in most suttas refers to wise attention arising to sober-up our attention to the seeing and consequent proliferation that has already arisen. Fascinating stuff. (Lobha and chanda mingling again.) This morning I saw an extraordinary bird - brilliant aquamarine blue plumage - never seen such a bird before. Was there appreciation at the beauty of it like there would have been before? Of course, but also, reflection on the vipaka and javanas involved. That's ok. I'm certainly not a joyless fellow, and when I'm out on a bike ride with Naomi there is a lot of drinking it in and sharing appreciation of beautiful things, but the Buddha's reminders re the dangers of unattentive consumption of sense door objects are often there as well, arising when conditions permit them to. Phil p.s BTW, I like the examle in Acharn Sujin's chapter on concepts in the SPD. A painting of grapes is no more real than the bunch of grapes on the table. This certainly goes against conventional thinking, against the ways of the world. #63752 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: One Litmus Test for Strong Sense of Self upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - Points of view aside, I LOVE the openness of your reply here. I love your willingness to consider other possibilities and to carefully examine your view. Truly it is admirable! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/28/06 6:15:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Sarah), > > At times like these I wish I had been a better student. It would be > nice to have a clear mental picture of the paccayas: > #63753 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:50 pm Subject: Re: some points on art buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Jon and all > > > James and his slavish obsession with art, his kneeling in blind > adoration at the temple of Da Vinci and Chagal and the other pagan > whores of paint and pallette, well, it has me thinking. LOL! Yes, I did actually laugh out loud over that one! Metta, James #63754 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:09 pm Subject: Groundhog Day Reflections buddhatrue Hi All, I watched the movie "Groundhog Day" on cable TV the other day. I love this movie because it is extremely Buddhist (and extremely funny). The protagonist, Bill Murray, has to re-live the same day over and over again. No matter what he does, he wakes up again to the same day. He gets very frustrated with this and kills himself several times, but he just wakes up again to the same day. First, he is a selfish jerk who tries to manipulate people; then he tries to pass his time by learning arts like piano playing and ice sculpting; and finally he becomes selfless and tries to improve the lives of others. It is when he becomes most selfless and stops trying to manipulate others that he is no longer reborn into the same day. Metaphorically, he becomes enlightened. Living our lives, since we don't have memory of our past lives (not most of us), we can't really appreciate how long we have been caught in the cycle of samsara- repeating lifetime after lifetime. So, we don't have the same sense of urgency to get out and frustration that Bill Murray has in "Groundhog Day". Most of us approach the Buddha's path as a way to live a better life now- as a way to rid the mind of the defilements. However, my question (just thinking out loud) is how best to view the Buddha's path? Should we view it as a way to stop the cycle or rebirth or should we view it as a way to purify the mind and have a better life in the here and now? I am reminded of the Pali word samvegno. Thanissaro defines this complicated word this way: Samvega was what the young Prince Siddhartha felt on his first exposure to aging, illness, and death. It's a hard word to translate because it covers such a complex range — at least three clusters of feelings at once: the oppressive sense of shock, dismay, and alienation that come with realizing the futility and meaninglessness of life as it's normally lived; a chastening sense of our own complacency and foolishness in having let ourselves live so blindly; and an anxious sense of urgency in trying to find a way out of the meaningless cycle. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/affirming.html However, isn't simply focusing on ending the cycle or rebirth a form a nihilism, a desire to not exist? I'm just thinking out loud here. Comments would be appreciated. Metta, James Ps. I hope that this post isn't as stupid as my art one. ;-)) #63755 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:48 am Subject: Crucial Foundation !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the Essential Foundation of Mental Purity ? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these Four Foundations of Awareness. What four? When a Bhikkhu keenly contemplates: 1: The formation within all Body... 2: The sensation within all Feeling... 3: The mentation within all Mind... 4: The discrete states within all Phenomena.. while always acutely aware & clearly comprehending, he thereby removes any urge, envy, jealousy, frustration and discontent rooted in this world... These are the Four Foundations of Awareness... Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 173-4] 47 The Foundations of Awareness: 24 Simple.. Details On Foundations of Awareness (Sati): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Awareness_Sati.htm ----- Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #63756 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:02 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 534- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Three Abstinences (Virati cetasikas) contd If right understanding of realities is not developed all kinds of defilements can arise on account of the objects which are experienced. When a pleasant object is experienced through the eyes, we tend to be immediately infatuated with it. We should realize that what is seen is only visible object, a kind of rúpa which does not last. Visible object can be seen just for a moment, it cannot be owned. Still, we make ourselves believe that we can own it. We want to get it for ourselves and because of it we may even commit evil deeds. In the ultimate sense there are no people or things, only nåma and rúpa which arise and then fall away immediately. ***** The Three Abstinences(Virati cetasikas)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #63757 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner - Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Han), --- Phil wrote: > Hello Han, Nina, Sarah and others > > > (i ) Why are pliancy of cetasikas and of citta the > > opponents of wrong view and conceit? > > > > They have the characteristic of suppressing the > > rigidity of mental factors and of consciousness > > (kaaya-citta thaddhataasama lakkhanaa); > > As Nina said you wrote very well about this topic, Han, with very > thorough understanding. For some reason, however, I found (I have > found) that these six pairs of beautiful cetasikas are the first > aspect of Abhidhamma that I have > ever had consistent doubts about, ever since I first read about them > a couple of years ago. Now I must emphasize that when there are > doubts about Abhidhamma, it is a reflection of our own ignorance,<...> ..... S: :-) You already had a good discussion and Han added further comments. I think there's no need to try and pin-point (not that you are trying!)what cetasika is exactly what, but I think we do get a sense of 'lightness', 'non-rigidity' and so on when kusala cittas arise in contrast to akusala cittas. For example, when we're helping others without any thought of ourselves, there's no heaviness, no clinging on, no deviousness, no sluggishness and so on. Like the curry ingredients, there certainly isn't enough panna developed to distinguish all the spices, but we know they're there... Thx for your honest comments! Metta, Sarah p.s I've also drawn your post to Nina's attention as you addressed her too, so I expect she'll have further comments as well. ======= #63758 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. jonoabb Hi Sof (and Han) An intriguing story (and thanks, Han, for tracking down the reference). I'm also interested in the subject heading you have given this thread: 'Deva uses divine power to change human karma'. Would you care to say something on this aspect of the story? Thanks. Jon sofgld wrote: >Hi Han >Thank you very much for your help. You're full of knowledge! >I asked this in 3 places, only u can give me a correct answer! > >Now I can dig deeper about this story via search engine. >Once again, thank you ! > >Kind regards >Sof > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > >>Dear Sof, >> >>It is Jataka story 526. >> >>The young boy or the young hermit was named >>"Isisinga." The deva king persuaded King Brahmadatta, >>who sent his daughter "Nilikaa" to seduce the young >>hermit. The deva king first stopped raining in the >>country for three years. He threatened the King that >>he would continue the drought till the young hermit >>was seduced and his siila broken. So the King had to >>send his daughter. ... >> >> #63759 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon & all, (apologies for replying to posts in a completely random order for now!) --- nidive wrote: <..> > > S: Again, isn't what we take for heart really made up of many > > different rupas? <...> > > A car and a heart are made up of many different rupas. ... S: And just like the verse about the 'chariot' in SN 1, 'chariot' or 'a being' are used for convenience, but actually when we examine the components, in the ultimate sense there is no chariot, no human, no car and no heart. .... > > S: Same question back to you. When you refer to my heart, are you > > referring to a rupa or an idea of a collection of rupas? > > I won't say its an idea. It's just composed of many different rupas, > not just one single rupa. ..... S: Whn you touch the car, only tangible objects are experienced. Only visible object is seen, but an idea of a car is thought about. Of course, like the wall behind the computer, there are lots of rupas arising and falling away all the time, but only one rupa at a time can ever be experienced or known. Anyway, I think we agree on this (from your comments with Howard). .... ******** 2nd discussion which started off with dukkha and upadana dukkha if I recall? > > >SB: It is interesting to note that the Buddha defines birth in > > > dependent co-arising as the "appearance of aggregates". > > .... > > S: I'm not quite sure what the significance of this is. If there is > > no clinging, there's no more birth, no more "appearance of > > aggregates"? I wonder what the Pali is anyone? *Perhaps Han or > > someone has some idea? > > I checked up the Pali in www.metta.lk. > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta2/ > 12-Abhisamaya-Samyutta/01-Buddhavaggo-p.html > > There is this line that contains the word jati (jati means birth > right?) and in that line there is this word khandhanau (I don't know > what this means, but it must be related to the word khandhas == > aggregates). .... S: Yes. I followed your link but couldn't find it at a quick look. I just found the usual Bhavapaccayaa jaati. (Birth conditioned by kamma. From the Mahaanidaana Sutta (BB transl): "It was said: 'With existence as condition there is birth.' How that is so, Ananda, should be understood in this way: If there were absolutely and utterly no existence or any kind anywhere - that is, no sense-sphere existence, fine-material existence, or immaterial existence - then, in the complete absence of existence, with the cessation of existence, would birth be discerned?" "Certainly not, venerable sir." "Therefore, Ananda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for birth, namely, existence." .... S: Having typed this out, I'd like to suggest that in the context of D.O., 'existence' is rather a mis-leading translation of bhava. It has this meaning in other contexts, but here, the meaning is kamma leading to rebirth as I understand. (I don't know what TB uses?) To be honest, Swee Boon, I joined in this discussion just as I got home from a long trip and I've rather forgotten the context. Perhaps you can summarise the discussion for me and otheres:-/ ... > > The reference translated work at www.accesstoinsight.org is: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html .... S: OK, here we go (from this transl): "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth. "And what is becoming? These three are becomings: sensual becoming, form becoming, & formless becoming. This is called becoming. ... S: TB uses 'becoming' for bhava. This refers to the 3 kinds of kamma which condition rebirth. BB uses 'manifestation of aggregates'. Whilst there is birth and the continuation of the cycle, the aggregates (khandhas) manifest or appear. At the moment of patisandhi citta, kamma produced rupas arises and continue to do so throughout life, conditioned by kamma and other causes. BB gives some further notes on bhava and his reasons for using 'existence' in his introduction to SN transl p52-53. He says that in D.O.bhava refers to both 1)"the active side of life that produces rebirth into a particular mode of sentient existence, in other words rebirth-producing kammma;" and 2)"the mode of sentient existence that results from such activity." Ah, now a commentary note (p726): "Spk: In the exposition of existence (bhava), sense-sphere existence is both kamma-existence (kammabhava) and rebirth-existence (upapattibhava). Of these, kamma-existence is just kamma that leads to sense-sphere existence; for the kamma, being the cause for rebirth-existence in that realm is spoken of as 'existence' by assigning the name of the result to the cause. "Rebirth-existence is the set of five kammically acquired aggregates produced by that kamma; for this is called 'existence' in the sense that 'it comes to be there'. The same method of explanation applies to form-sphere and formless-sphere existence (except that in formless-sphere rebirth-existence only the four material aggregates exist.)." .... S: OK, this is interesting....not just the rebirth-producing kamma, but also referring to the resulting khandhas. .... > If there is no more further birth for an arahant, surely this means > that there is no more further appearance of the five khandhas for that > arahant, doesn't it? .... S: Definitely yes (after the parinibbana of course). No conditions for further birth. As I mentioned, I've somewhat forgotten what our main topic was (because of my delayed response) in the second part of this post, but I've had fun checking the references:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #63760 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On what Citta is the Universe Dependent? sarahprocter... Hi Plamen & Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > Hi Plamen Gradinarov, > > > True, it rather describes the reincarnation process ,and in this > > sense it describes the form and name as pancakkhandha, not the rise > > of the external rupas which can well be outside any pancakkhandha > > and hence independent of any namas (or citta). If the external > > universe is dependent on consciousness, I am very curious to learn > > on what particular citta is the Big Bang contingent. > > I can't give you an answer. This is beyond my knowledge. I think it is > valid to say that rupas depend on other rupas for their arising. .... S: Did anyone mention temperature? There are four causes of rupa -- kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. All external rupas (not part of sentient beings) are conditioned by temperature. Metta, Sarah ==== #63761 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Since when has this discussion involved the relative ease or >difficulty of attaining jhana?? I have never said that attaining >jhana was easy or non-difficult- it is very difficult. I have >practiced meditation for years and I have never even come close to >attaining jhana (but of course I wasn't trying). This is completely >beside the point. The issue has been if it is possible for a >householder to attain jhana and if the Buddha taught such a thing. >If you agree that it is possible and that the Buddha did teach that, >then there is nothing left to discuss. > > I agree that, according to the Buddha's teaching, the attainment of jhana is possible for some householders (but not for lay-followers in general). >As far as how difficult you or I think it is, that is beside the >point. Our knowledge is only theoretical. > > Correct. Your view or my view on the question is beside the point. But the question of relative difficulty itself is very much to the point, I believe. Thanks for the discussion. Jon #63762 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ten Parmitas! sarahprocter... Dear Nitesh (& Nina), --- kanchaa wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you for your support. > > I dont have much litrature about it. I am just refering the site > http://www.zolag.co.uk/Perfections.html, the one that you recommended > last time. If you know any other sites that could be helpful, please > forward it to me.. .... S: Yes, also see the translation of the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka (translated by B.Bodhi) which is the most comprehensive source in the ancient texts on the Parami (as far as I know). It's just recently on line here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html Nina will be back around October 2nd (if I recall). Why not start posting short extracts from either or both sources with your questions or comments then? We'd all be glad, I'm sure. Metta, Sarah ======== #63763 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The coin merchant simile (Sarah) sarahprocter... Hi Larry, (Phil & Howard), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > S: "I think that every citta which arises (or vinnana) 'knows' in the > sense > of 'experiences' its object just as it is." > > L: Exactly! Phil described it as 'bare attention'. .... S: I'm not sure he used this phrase for vinnana... [Ah, just seen Phil's clarification. He used 'bare cognition' for vinnana. Citta 'cognizes' or experiences its object. Remember, 'Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that it knows (vijaanaati) an object...' (Summary TA). ... >In everyday > consciousness we don't notice this because it is covered over by > ignorance. But as yoniso manasikara it is very noticeable. This is a > very important stepping stone to panna, and, as you say, it is always > available because it is every consciousness. .... S: I'm not sure this is what I said, but maybe I misunderstand you. Citta or vinnana arises at every instant, one after the other. Yoniso manasikara (wise attention) only arises when wholesome cittas arise in the mind door process. Neither are stepping stones to panna. Panna arises with certain cittas and when there is panna, the process is one of wise attention. .... >Nyanaponika Thera also > described it as 'bare attention'. It is attending to (experiencing) > presently arising reality, but not quite understanding it. .... S: I think Howard clarified NT's use of the term. I think he used it for sati, but to my mind, it's not very appropriate as it sounds to much like the 'attending to' you mention. If it is sati (of satipatthana or a pre-cursor of), then there is understanding already arising with it. No self to attend or have any bare attention, though. Metta, Sarah ======== #63764 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The coin merchant simile (Sarah) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, No hurry or requirement to reply to my post a few days ago to you. I know you're an artist. I've been trying to follow your suggestion to me of 'spontaneous replying' to whatever arises on the top of the pile rather than my old systematic, super-fair in order system. It's fun in a way like catching whatever wave rolls in rather than waiting for the 'right' ones, but it's also getting me in a bit of a muddle too....so I'm looking at a bit of a compromise....a systematic artistic response system. How does that sound? --- Phil wrote (to Larry): > Slef-correction -as you mention above, there is manasikara > (attention) with every moment of consciousness. This is one area > where I sometimes sense a gap (due to ignorance) between the > Abhidhamma treatment of manasikara and the suttanta treatment. In > the suttas, it seems to have such a dramatic role, being the factor > that is taught to be (if I recaall correctly) the singlemost > important in cutting short proliferation of akusala. It's hard to > ascribe that role to a universal cetasika that is tucked in there > somewhere quietly doing its job... .... S: Quick comment- in the suttas the yoniso and ayoniso manasikara referred to are not the 'universal cetasika that is tucked in there somewhere quietly doing its job'. They are referring to the series of cittas (and cetasikas) in the processes when kusala or akusala cittas arise. These of course include manasikara arising with them, but other factors such as awareness too. I think Htoo described manasikara as being like the rudder of a ship. Metta, Sarah ======= #63765 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:54 am Subject: What is Upadana Khandha? pgradinarov Dear DSG Members, My body is an internal rupa-khandha for me but an external rupa- khandha for you and for anybody else, along with all cars, houses, continents, planets, galaxies and finally along with the mahakhandha we are used to call Universe. In the same way, my feelings are internal vedana-khandha for me but external vedana-khandha for you and anybody else. The same with sanna-khandha, sankhara-khandha, and even citta-khandha - they are both internal and external. The external nama-khandhas make up the world of the intersubjective experience. In any case, the five khandhas as we know them from the popular representations of Buddhism, are not real - they are just names for denoting various collections of abstract rupas and namas which, taken in isolation, do not exist. The red color of the rose does not exist independently and apart from the rose - red color is a mere abstraction that has footing only in our mind and is therefore purely pannattical. The odour of the rose does not exist independently of the rose, nonetheless we are easily bound to declare the gandha-rupa a paramattha-dhamma, while, in reality, gandha-rupa is a convenient abstraction, a name for denoting a whole class of flavours and odours that exist only in concrete objects - roses, food, essences, - i.e., in res, rather than in mente. What is it that we are addicted to - our idea of the fragrant rose, or the real fragrant rose out there? If it is the idea of the fragrance or the fast locomotion as represented in the idea of the car, then it is these ideas (namas) that are ultimate objects of our clinging, not the external objects. If this were the case, then only the nama-khandhas would have been declared upadana-khandhas. The rupa-khandha is nothing more than classification idea in our mind for denoting the sum-total of all the various and multifarious subclassess of external and internal rupas. This being the case, the upadana-khandha could refer only to the particular rupa-kalapas that make up the individual bodies and material objects. It is only these individual material aggregates (rupa-khandhas) that can be accepted as legitimate objects of clinging (upadana-arammana). The same applies to the mental and paramental (both related and dissociated) aggregates. We are addicted to individual designation aggregates (wholistic images) rather than to this or that ultimate dhamma. Bloggers are addicted to their blogs, Yahoo members to their mental representation of their group and to the idea of I am (asmita) a member of DSG which makes up my imputed RPG-Self. But this idea has multiple components - and none of these paramattha- dhammas can be found to be an object for craving or clinging. Even if we agree that kusala-dhammas could be such object, there are still lots of akusala and kilesa dhammas that only a pervert or sick man could turn into object of upadana. This all proves to the conclusion that by upadana-khandhas we should understand any physical or psychological individual object rather than the Abhidhamma-listed paramattha-dhammas in their fivefoldness. Kindest regards, Plamen #63766 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul sarahprocter... Hi Scott & Connie, As I've said before, you understand each other at least... ... --- Scott Duncan wrote: > c: "...Foul within,--it is always excreting. Yea, as all the world > can see, its end is death, passing to the charnel-house, there to be > the dwelling-place of worms* [147]. What should I achieve, my > bridegroom, by tricking out this body? Would not its adornment be like > decorating the outside of a close-stool?" .... S: What is a 'close-stool' or shouldn't I ask? Derivation or is that worse? .... > > I'll cancel the makeover immediately and sign up for a fleet enema > instead... .... S: And a *fleet* enema.....? Again, perhaps it's better I don't know. I must say, she had a very understanding bride-groom as I recall. Metta, Sarah ======== #63767 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where are the Independent Rupas? jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: >Name-&-form acts as a foothold for the arising of consciousness. Where >consciousness arises in dependence on name-&-form, consciousness is >said to gain a foothold in name-&-form. > > I follow your reasoning here, but I'm just not sure if this is how the expression 'gain a foothold' is explained in the texts. So although your explanation sounds reasonable, I hesitate to say I agree ;-)) >The five external mediums (the form-medium, the sound-medium, the >aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium) with >the exception of the idea-medium are all variations of form. > >The six internal mediums (the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose- >medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium) >arises in dependence on name-&-form. > > To my understanding, the first 5 internal ayatanas are the (physical) sense bases that are included in the 'form' of 'name and form', while the sixth is all kinds of consciousness. Is this how you see it? >Therefore, the five external mediums and the six internal mediums can >be summarized as just name-&-form. > > To my understanding the expression 'name and form' as used in DO refers to certain cetasikas and certain rupas only, as explained in my earlier post. >It is worthwhile to take note that the Buddha skips over the six sense >media in DN 15: > > Thanks for the following quotes and your comments on the variant forms of DO. Bhikkhu Bodhi discusses this briefly in his translation of SN (do you have access to it?). >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html > >"'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact.' Thus it >has been said. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >The usual way of DO includes the six sense media as in between name-&- >form and contact: > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html > >>From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. >>From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Now, in dependence on the external medium and the internal medium, >there arises the corresponding consciousness. The meeting of the three >is contact, with contact, there is feeling, with feeling, there is the >coming into play of craving that makes for further becoming. > > As explained earlier, the sixth internal ayatana is consciousness. >This is how I understand the dependency of "consciousness depends on >name-&-form" as the 'experiencing' process. > > Thanks for this detailed explanation. Not an easy area to figure out! Jon #63768 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: >Oh, it really isn't a big deal. I didn't write anything >about "dealing with" my love of art; I just stated that I have it. >But really, this post of mine is really stupid and it should be >disregarded. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it! ;-)) > > I didn't see anything stupid about your post. I think everyone has moments of thinking their lifestyle or personality is in conflict with their interest in the Dhamma. Such moments are bound to arise because, even if we know 'rationally' that there is no such conflict, there is still the deep-seated view that there is ;-)) >>The position is the same as regards the development of samatha: >>that development can occur without the need to do anything >>special about the defilements >> >> > >Jon, you must be the most relaxed person in the world! You are >practically practicing samatha all day!! ;-)) > > That wasn't what I was trying to say (or suggest) ;-)) *Despite* our strong defilements, there can be moments of (unbidden) kusala in our day. Who doesn't experience this? >I just got my copy of the Vism. yesterday! I have started to read >it. So far, I think that everything I have read is contrary to what >you believe. > > Well that must make it well worth the price of its acquisition ;-)). Looking forward to being pointed in the right direction in due course. >>As understanding is developed and the interest in Dhamma is >>strengthened, various 'distractions' will fall away without >>us having to 'do' anything about it. >> >> > >Of course. But something must be 'done' in order for this >understanding to be developed. Just read the Vism. Jon! > > Happy to do so. Which particular chapter and paragraphs do you suggest I start with? Jon #63769 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:23 am Subject: Ten External and Two Internal Ayatanas pgradinarov Dear Jon and Swee Boon, > >Therefore, the five external mediums and the six internal mediums can > >be summarized as just name-&-form. I would rather say, the ten external and the two internal. :-) Kindest regards, Plamen #63770 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > "Sensuality does not lie in the world's pretty things; > > A man's sensuality lies in thoughts of passion. > > While the world's pretty things remain as they are, > > The wise remove the desire for them." > > ... > > Thank you for all your good quotes. They are all agreeable with me. > But still I am not free from sensuality. .... S: No, none of us are. Only an anagami or arahant is. Of course, in an ultimate sense, it's not your or my sensuality. Just lobha (or tanha) arising and passing away. Nothing to fret about:-). .... > > Do you know why it takes two path moments in order to completely > eradicate sensuality? I think sensuality must be a very strong > defilement. ... S: Actually three path moments (of the sotapanna, sakadagami and anagami). I think you've given the answer. Yes, it's very, very tenacious. The grossest forms are eradicated first, but still the more subtle attachment to sense pleasures have to be eradicated. As you've said, it's very, very common, even now as we look at our computers or even the curtains or blind or wall behind. Attachment with wrong view is the grossest kind to be eradicated first of course. Metta, Sarah ======== #63771 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) sarahprocter... Dear Han,(Howard* & all) I think that the good points you raise here really get at the heart of the important discussions here. They remind me of the points Howard just mentioned to Ken H and the ones he said he discussed with 'good dhamma friends'* --- han tun wrote: >S: [However, I don't think so much in terms of 'to do'. > If the above conditions are in place there will be the > abstinence from wrong speech and so on at that time. > If these conditions are not in place a few moments > later, then again there may be conditions for harsh > speech or deeds. No one to do anything, but just the > understanding of these various factors, such as > saddha, hiri, ottappa and contentment to be developed > as I see it.] > H:> The above statement by itself is very clear. I do not > want to jump the gun, but you will soon be presenting > the different degrees of abstinence: abstaining in > spite of opportunity obtained (sampatta-virati), > abstaining because of observance of precepts > (samaadaana-virati), and abstaining by way of > eradication (samuccheda-virati). > > Will these viratis also arise only if there are > conditions for them to arise, and they will not arise > if the conditions are not there, as there is “no one” > to do anything, and “no one” to observe the precepts > even? .... S: Yes, that's exactly my understanding, Han. Whichever 'degree' or kind of virati we are referring to, it is to momentary arising cittas and cetasikas. There is nothing else but these cetasikas performing their functions at such moments. By the time there's any idea of 'doing' something, many, many kusala and akusala cittas have already arisen and passed. Do you have any other idea? I'd be glad to hear your further comments. This extract is also relevant, I think (Cetasikas 532, virati (e): "It is not easy to know when there is kusala citta accompanied by one of the three abstinences. So long as it is not known precisely when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta, the characteristics of the cetasikas which are abstention from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood cannot be known either. It is of no use to try to focus on these realities since there are many sobhana cetasikas accompanying the kusala citta while we abstain from evil and it is difficult to know their different characteristics. When the characteristic of abstinence appears there can be mindfulness of it in order to be able to realize that it is not self who abstains." ..... S: This is what we are always reminded of in the teachings and when we visit A.Sujin. I think it's a good topic to discuss, but I know it's controversial. We'll be glad if you join in the controversial topics - let's keep Howard, Ken H and others company:-). Metta, Sarah *p.s Howard, so was that your report on your get-together with Nina & Lodewijk? She asked me to f/w any report you gave. Will we get a more detailed one with some artistic touches for Phil & James as well, lol?? ========= #63772 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul scottduncan2 Hi Sarah,(connie, Howard), S: "As I've said before, you understand each other at least..." Well, I don't know about the reciprocal thing but that one made sense to me. S: "What is a 'close-stool' or shouldn't I ask? Derivation or is that worse?" I think the whole thing meant something like, "Why should I dress all sexy for you, its like dressing up the outhouse (privvy, water-closet, toilet, bathroom - whatever you call that little room.) S: And a *fleet* enema.....? Again, perhaps it's better I don't know. Um. Yeah. High colonics are not for the faint of heart. Best stay away, Sarah. What I find interesting in relation to this sort of "meditation," and in particular its mention these days, even given Howard's cautions, is that it sort of flows in and pops up during my day and is timely. Nearly two years after the death of a wife I notice the unthawing of libido. I'm not looking for a new partner; I do notice I'm looking though. And I think of connie's quotes, or rather they come up, as I said, amidst all the other things (as it were, sorry). Its almost in the form of a rather unstructured inner argument and helpful are the references to close-stools in a perspective-putting sort of way. I imagine these days that some form of celibacy might conduce more favourably to living the spiritual life but I don't know how such a notion will develop, nor do I take it that seriously because it may not be the point: at least, there is no one who can benefit from and no one to choose celibacy as a means of practise. Blah, blah, blah. I hope you all are well. With loving kindness, Scott. #63773 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) hantun1 Dear Sarah and others, If you say that “whichever 'degree' or kind of virati we are referring to, it is to momentary arising cittas and cetasikas; there is nothing else but these cetasikas performing their functions, and at such moments, it is not self who abstains,” although it is correct from point of view of paramattha dhamma, I see it as one extreme. If I say I will observe the precepts, or I will abstain from wrong action and wrong speech, or I will do this or do that, it is another extreme, because in reality, there is no “I”. Therefore, I will try to adjust myself between these two extremes. My only request is that when I write sometimes with my “extreme”, to forgive me and bear with me, or just to ignore me. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han,(Howard* & all) > > I think that the good points you raise here really > get at the heart of the > important discussions here. They remind me of the > points Howard just > mentioned to Ken H and the ones he said he discussed > with 'good dhamma > friends'* > #63774 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten External and Two Internal Ayatanas jonoabb Hi Plamen Plamen Gradinarov wrote: >Dear Jon and Swee Boon, > > > >>>Therefore, the five external mediums and the six internal mediums >>>can be summarized as just name-&-form. >>> >>> > >I would rather say, the ten external and the two internal. :-) > > Yes. You'd be out-of-step with the rest of us, but why not? Idiosyncrasy rules! ;-)) I found your post on upadana khandha an interesting read but, again, non-mainstream ;-)). Does it reflect a school of thought out there? Jon #63775 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:38 am Subject: Re: The coin merchant simile (Sarah) philofillet Hi Sarah Thanks for this. I just want to repost it so I don't forget it. It's something I've always wondered about, how the wise attention of the suttas could be the universal cetasika that accompanies all cittas. It's more clear now thanks to this post, and I'll get back more to this later, I think. Phil > S: Quick comment- in the suttas the yoniso and ayoniso manasikara referred > to are not the 'universal cetasika that is tucked in there > somewhere quietly doing its job'. > > They are referring to the series of cittas (and cetasikas) in the > processes when kusala or akusala cittas arise. These of course include > manasikara arising with them, but other factors such as awareness too. I > think Htoo described manasikara as being like the rudder of a ship. #63776 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas ( scottduncan2 Dear Han, H: "...Therefore, I will try to adjust myself between these two extremes." Me too, then. This is what its all about, man... With loving kindness, Scott. #63777 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deva uses devine power to change human karma. hantun1 Dear Jon, Sarah and Sof, Jataka story 526 Nilinikaa vatthu was told by the Buddha with respect to a monk who wanted to leave monk-hood due to the entreaty of his ex-wife to come back to her. The Father Hermit in the story was our Buddha (as Bodhisatta), the young hermit was the monk who wanted to leave the monk-hood, and Princess Nilinikaa was the ex-wife of the monk. Jon, it was not difficult for me to track it down, because in Burma, before World War II, this story was one of many stories that our Elders used to tell us warning us against the deceitful nature of women and their expertise in seducing men which was very difficult to resist. (If it were today, our Elders would have difficult time with women activists!) Han --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Sof (and Han) > > An intriguing story (and thanks, Han, for tracking > down the reference). > #63778 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Groundhog Day Reflections upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 9/29/06 1:12:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi All, > > I watched the movie "Groundhog Day" on cable TV the other day. I > love this movie because it is extremely Buddhist (and extremely > funny). The protagonist, Bill Murray, has to re-live the same day > over and over again. No matter what he does, he wakes up again to > the same day. He gets very frustrated with this and kills himself > several times, but he just wakes up again to the same day. First, > he is a selfish jerk who tries to manipulate people; then he tries > to pass his time by learning arts like piano playing and ice > sculpting; and finally he becomes selfless and tries to improve the > lives of others. It is when he becomes most selfless and stops > trying to manipulate others that he is no longer reborn into the > same day. Metaphorically, he becomes enlightened. ------------------------------------------- Howard: This is one of my favorite films, James, and, yes, it is a clear allegory of samsara and the escape from samsara. A delightful film! BTW, if you haven't seen The Truman Show, please do see that film as well. The symbolism is similar, and also extremely clever and subtle IMO. I think it is brilliant. (I would love sometime to view it again and discuss elements of it with you, and others here of course as well. ------------------------------------------ > > Living our lives, since we don't have memory of our past lives (not > most of us), we can't really appreciate how long we have been caught > in the cycle of samsara- repeating lifetime after lifetime. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: The way some Mahayanists put it is "from the very no-beginning of time"! ;-) ----------------------------------------- So, we > > don't have the same sense of urgency to get out and frustration that > Bill Murray has in "Groundhog Day". Most of us approach the > Buddha's path as a way to live a better life now- as a way to rid > the mind of the defilements. However, my question (just thinking > out loud) is how best to view the Buddha's path? Should we view it > as a way to stop the cycle or rebirth or should we view it as a way > to purify the mind and have a better life in the here and now? ------------------------------------------ Howard: There is not just the conventional rebirth from lifetime to lifetime, but also the perpetual rebirth of sense of self and of grasping. There is the ongoing rebirth of the sense of me and mine. From a non-annihilationist perspective, I think that purifying the mind here and now and "stopping the cycle" may come down to pretty much the same thing. Let's say that "living in" samsara consists of a rat race on a wheel, and the realization of nibbana is the stepping off that wheel to the freedom that already is a reality. If we think that being on the wheel is "existence" and being off is "non-existence", that is both a substantialist and nihilist perspective, an embracing of two extremes. If, on the other hand, we think of being on the wheel as simply unnecessary obsessive and compulsive and ignorant lunacy, and the stepping off as the relinquishment of a self-imposed torture, it is another matter entirely. ----------------------------------------- > > I am reminded of the Pali word samvegno. Thanissaro defines this > complicated word this way: > > Samvega was what the young Prince Siddhartha felt on his first > exposure to aging, illness, and death. It's a hard word to translate > because it covers such a complex range — at least three clusters of > feelings at once: the oppressive sense of shock, dismay, and > alienation that come with realizing the futility and meaninglessness > of life as it's normally lived; a chastening sense of our own > complacency and foolishness in having let ourselves live so blindly; > and an anxious sense of urgency in trying to find a way out of the > meaningless cycle. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/affirming.html ---------------------------------------- Howard: Interesting, isn't it? On the face of it, such an experience seems to be a "downer" and just the sort of "unpleasant" thing folks wish to avoid. But the facts are that it is a critically important event, and wonderfully deservant of celebration at its occurrence. -------------------------------------- > > However, isn't simply focusing on ending the cycle or rebirth a form > a nihilism, a desire to not exist? I'm just thinking out loud > here. Comments would be appreciated. -------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think of the ending of samsara as the end of experience in eve ry possible sense. Primarily, I think of it as the ending of any felt need for there to be or not be experience of any particular sort, or for experience in general or its absence. It is the awakening from a dream of slavery and illusion to a realization of freedom and wisdom. I think of someone who has been pedaling a bicycle with the gears fixed at the lowest setting so as to require enormous struggle in the pedaling, and who then releases the gears entirely, and with the most delightful ease simply coasts freely. -------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > Ps. I hope that this post isn't as stupid as my art one. ;-)) > --------------------------------------- Howard: You are addressing only the very most important matter there is! How in the world could that be stupid? :-) ===================== With metta, Howard #63779 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 533- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas hantun1 Dear Sarah and Nina and others, I read in the text: There are different degrees of abstinence and the Atthasalini ( I, Book I, Part III, Chapter VI, 103, 104) distinguishes between three kinds: abstaining "in spite of opportunity obtained", abstaining because of observance (of precepts) and abstaining by way of eradication. I would like to write something about abstaining because of observance (of precepts). I notice that some of my dhamma friends do not pay much attention to siila in comparison to samaadhi and pannaa. It is true that when mahaa kusala cittas are arising during vipassanaa meditation, or when mahaggata cittas are ariing during jhaanas, there is no occasion to observe siila, but on other occasions, as long as we are still non-ariyas our siila can be broken; it is not unshakeable yet. Therefore, we should pay particular attention to constantly nourish our siila. In this connection, I like Ven Bkikkhu Bodhi’s comparison of siila to the roots of a tree. In “Nourishing the Roots” he wrote: Quote: [The principal stages of this gradual training are three: the training in sila or virtue, the training in samadhi or concentration, and the training in pañña or wisdom. If we follow through the comparison of the Buddhist discipline to a tree, faith (saddha) would be the seed, for it is faith that provides the initial impulse through which the training is taken up, and faith again that nourishes the training through every phase of its development. Virtue would be the roots, for it is virtue that gives grounding to our spiritual endeavors just as the roots give grounding to a tree. Concentration would be the trunk, the symbol of strength, non-vacillation, and stability. And wisdom would be the branches, which yield the flowers of enlightenment and the fruits of deliverance.] End Quote. Thus siila on one hand and samaadhi and pannaa on the other, are conditioning each other with mutuality condition. To the extent the roots grow the tree will grow, and to the extent the tree grows the roots will grow. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi added that [To say that sila is the precondition for success, however, does not mean, as is too often believed in conservative Buddhist circles, that one cannot begin to meditate until one's sila is perfect. Such a stipulation would make it almost impossible to start meditation, since it is the mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom of the meditative process that bring about the gradual purification of virtue.] This also highlights the mutuality condition. Thus we should always be nourishing our siila, the roots of samaadhi and pannaa. Respectfully, Han #63780 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasika... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/29/06 7:37:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > *p.s Howard, so was that your report on your get-together with Nina & > Lodewijk? She asked me to f/w any report you gave. Will we get a more > detailed one with some artistic touches for Phil &James as well, lol?? > ====================== It was one little piece of what could be a "report". I brought it up only because it was relevant to Swee Boon's post, and I thought it made sense to mention it in that context. As for a fuller report, I await Nina's return for her to take the lead in reporting on technical discussions during our get-together. At that time, I'll add some things, most especially of a personal nature. For now, I'll just say that it was a wonderful afternoon that Nina, Lodewijk, and I spent together. With metta, Howard #63781 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten External and Two Internal Ayatanas pgradinarov Dear Jon, Just count to 10. 5 external senses plus 5 external objects makes 10 external ayatanas. 1 internal mind (manas is antahkarana) plus 1 class of internal objects of mind, makes 2 internal ayatanas. Kindest regards, Plamen #63782 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:52 am Subject: Re: Presently Experienced Rupa pgradinarov Dear Howard and Jon, Presently experienced rupa is given to us either as sanna or as vinnana. There is no other way to experience whatever rupa exists out there. All that does not fit our limited anthropological constitution with 5+1 senses, is _voraussetzungsweise_ doomed to non-existence. If, on the basis of this kind of reasoning, we conclude that whatever exists does so because it is experienced, then we are no doubt followers of Bishop Berkeley, i.e., subjective idealists - like it or not. And there will be no need to postulate the existence of rupa- khandha. Perceptions and cognitions would be more than enough to account for the (always hypothetical) existence of the external world. Kindest regards, Plamen P.S. All these discussions make me feel 30 years younger. :-) #63783 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:38 am Subject: Re: Where are the Independent Rupas? nidive Hi Jon, > >The five external mediums (the form-medium, the sound-medium, the > >aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium) with > >the exception of the idea-medium are all variations of form. > > > >The six internal mediums (the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose- > >medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium) > >arises in dependence on name-&-form. > > To my understanding, the first 5 internal ayatanas are the > (physical) sense bases that are included in the 'form' of > 'name and form', while the sixth is all kinds of consciousness. > Is this how you see it? Not quite agree. The Buddha said depending on the corresponding external medium and the corresponding internal medium, there arises the corresponding consciousness. As such, the internal intellect medium cannot be referring to "all kinds of consciousness". It doesn't make sense. > To my understanding the expression 'name and form' as used in DO > refers to certain cetasikas and certain rupas only, as explained > in my earlier post. Not quite true. Name refers to feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention. Form refers to the four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html Regards, Swee Boon #63784 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Presently Experienced Rupa upasaka_howard Hi, Plamen (and Jon) - In a message dated 9/29/06 11:05:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pgradinarov@... writes: > Dear Howard and Jon, > > Presently experienced rupa is given to us either as sanna or as > vinnana. There is no other way to experience whatever rupa exists out > there. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, I would put that somewhat differently. I would say the mere experiencing of rupa is called "vi~n~nana". The sa~n~na and vedana and so on are additional ways of "knowing" that physical content. Your formulation, of course, speaks of the rupa as existing "out there", which to me, is mere concept. However, I do accept as possible that it is more than concept-only. ---------------------------------------- All that does not fit our limited anthropological constitution > > with 5+1 senses, is _voraussetzungsweise_ doomed to non-existence. If, > on the basis of this kind of reasoning, we conclude that whatever > exists does so because it is experienced, then we are no doubt > followers of Bishop Berkeley, i.e., subjective idealists - like it or > not. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't run in horror from such an association. ;-) However, my perspective doesn't quite match that of the good Bishop's nor does it match the idealism of the Lankavatara Sutra. I do not conceive of rupa as something projected by mind. That perspective seems to reify both nama and rupa. My perspective distinguishes between nama and rupa, it accepts rupa --> rupa, rupa --> nama, nama --> nama, and nama --> rupa modes of conditionality. But my view of rupa is a purely experiential one. ------------------------------------------- And there will be no need to postulate the existence of rupa- > > khandha. Perceptions and cognitions would be more than enough to > account for the (always hypothetical) existence of the external world. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't agree with that. Distinguishability and independence are not one and the same. (The inside and outside of a box are distinguishable but inseparable. Metaphor only, obviously.) -------------------------------------------- > > Kindest regards, > > Plamen > > P.S. All these discussions make me feel 30 years younger. :-) > ---------------------------------------- Howard: That's *wonderful*!!! :-) ==================== With metta, Howard #63785 From: connie Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:11 am Subject: Re: not fond of foul nichiconn Hi Scott, Sarah, Howard, I puzzled a bit over Howard's 'warning': " Just as psychoanalysis shouldn't be done by any old person, such extreme therapy would be dangerous, I think, when applied by anyone except a Dhammic expert - that is, one who has gone very far on the path *and* who has mastered the needed perfections. " I haven't any idea why shrink-wrapping the oldies might be extreme or dangerous therapy, but really I take it his point was just a rephrasing of the first part of the Illustrator's: << When a clansman is already established in virtue and has purifed his means by the Training Precepts in the way stated, this [meditation subject] has for its purpose the purification of his ends and it has for its aim his maintaining profitable cognizance in being. It is never promulgated except after an Enlightened One's arising and is outside the province of any sectarians. >> For now, just another way the same thing is handed down; the commentary on the verses of Mahaa-Pajaapati: "I am disgusted with the body, which is like a snake hole, the abode of disease, a mass of misery, the haunt of old age and death, full of various kinds of impurity, dependent on others, without impulse. Therefore, I wish to be quenched. Give me permission, O son." Nanda, Raahula, and Bhadda, who were free from grief, without taints, firm as mountains standing, reflected on the nature of phenomena: "Woe be to the conditioned state, which is unsteady, without substance like a plantain trunk, like a deceptive mirage, transitory, not lasting. "Indeed, when the Conqueror's aunt, the one who nourished the Buddha, Gotamii, is going to her end, then all conditioned states are impermanent." peace, connie running off to work #63786 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:18 am Subject: Re: Groundhog Day Reflections nidive Hi James, > However, isn't simply focusing on ending the cycle or rebirth a form > a nihilism, a desire to not exist? I'm just thinking out loud > here. Comments would be appreciated. Depending on how you view it. To a person who is resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the ending of rebirth is nihilism for him. To a person who is not resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the ending of rebirth is simply the ending of dukkha & suffering. Regards, Swee Boon #63787 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 9/29/06 12:17:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, connieparker@... writes: > Hi Scott, Sarah, Howard, > > I puzzled a bit over Howard's 'warning': > " Just as psychoanalysis shouldn't be > done by any old person, such extreme therapy would be dangerous, I think, > when applied by anyone except a Dhammic expert - that is, one who has gone > very far on the path *and* who has mastered the needed perfections. " > I haven't any idea why shrink-wrapping the oldies might be extreme or > dangerous therapy, but really I take it his point was just a rephrasing of > the first part of the Illustrator's: < established in virtue and has purifed his means by the Training Precepts > in the way stated, this [meditation subject] has for its purpose the > purification of his ends and it has for its aim his maintaining profitable > cognizance in being. It is never promulgated except after an Enlightened > One's arising and is outside the province of any sectarians. >> ------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not clear on what you mean by "shrink-wrapping the oldies," but just in case you possibly think I was speaking of "old" persons, let me make it clear that by the common expression "any old person" I meant an arbitrary person - a random individual as opposed to one who has gone far on the path. ------------------------------------ > > For now, just another way the same thing is handed down; the commentary on > the verses of Mahaa-Pajaapati: > > "I am disgusted with the body, which is like a snake hole, the abode of > > disease, a mass of misery, the haunt of old age and death, full of various > kinds of impurity, dependent on others, without impulse. Therefore, I wish > to be quenched. Give me permission, O son." > Nanda, Raahula, and Bhadda, who were free from grief, without taints, > firm as mountains standing, reflected on the nature of phenomena: > "Woe be to the conditioned state, which is unsteady, without substance > like a plantain trunk, like a deceptive mirage, transitory, not lasting. > "Indeed, when the Conqueror's aunt, the one who nourished the Buddha, > Gotamii, is going to her end, then all conditioned states are impermanent." > > peace, > connie running off to work > > ====================== With metta, Howard #63788 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Groundhog Day Reflections upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and James) - In a message dated 9/29/06 12:26:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi James, > > >However, isn't simply focusing on ending the cycle or rebirth a form > >a nihilism, a desire to not exist? I'm just thinking out loud > >here. Comments would be appreciated. > > Depending on how you view it. > > To a person who is resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the > ending of rebirth is nihilism for him. > > To a person who is not resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the > ending of rebirth is simply the ending of dukkha &suffering. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Not that it would matter to an arahant (except perhaps with respect to his/her compassion for sentient beings and the help he could otherwise afford them), but would it not be in fact the ending of *everything*? And would that not be as close to an annihilation as anything could be? ----------------------------------------- > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ===================== With metta, Howard #63789 From: "colette" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:56 am Subject: Lost & Found Dept. ksheri3 Good Morning Group, Has any body noticed that there is a focus, a continual attempt, to regard the Dharma as existant, thus the falsehood that Sarvastivans are EXTINCT? This is really cool, Theravadans running around using a Theravadan cloke as a means to obscure their Sarvastivadan intentions, motivations, see "The Knower" and "The Known". I've just made this discovery so please allow me to work it out further so that this topic may be touched upon further. I also have Yogacara and Madhyamaka things to work out. toodles, colette #63790 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten External and Two Internal Ayatanas jonoabb Hi Plamen Plamen Gradinarov wrote: >Dear Jon, > >Just count to 10. 5 external senses plus 5 external objects makes 10 >external ayatanas. 1 internal mind (manas is antahkarana) plus 1 class >of internal objects of mind, makes 2 internal ayatanas. > > Thanks for this explanation. When you say '5 external senses' you are referring to the rupas that are the 5 sense-bases, I believe. In what sense do you see these as being external? Jon #63791 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:38 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas ( philofillet Hi Scott and Han and all > "...Therefore, I will try to adjust myself between these two >extremes." > Me too, then. This is what its all about, man... Too much editing here, hoser! I don't know what the two extremes in question are. Of course I will go and read Han's post. But just to note that the "try to adjust" sounds a little too controlling, like the way I am constantly adjusting the room temperature at work to satisfy my sense of well-being. I am wary of the citta stream being considered as an improved product that can be shaped to be this way or that - though of course improvement (ie cultivation of the wholesome, eradication of the unwholesome) does come our way if we stay open to the Buddha's teaching. I will let this go now and reflect on what the two extremes are before I go to check Han's post. Hope you're still getting blissed out by ndsc and the other paccayas. I look forward to discussing them at length with you some day. (Your enthusiasm conditioned wanting-to-study-them-more for me , thanks.) Phil #63792 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:48 pm Subject: Re: Groundhog Day Reflections nidive Hi Howard, > Not that it would matter to an arahant (except perhaps with respect > to his/her compassion for sentient beings and the help he could > otherwise afford them), but would it not be in fact the ending of > *everything*? Yes, it is in fact the ending of everything that is conditioned. For a person who is resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", he is said to be a person who is resolved on Ignorance. For him who is resolved on Ignorance, the whole chain of Dependent Co-arising in forward order (ie. dependent existence) is propagated. Such is the origination of this entire mass of dukkha & suffering. For a person who is not resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", he is said to be a person who is not resolved on Ignorance. For him who is not resolved on Ignorance, the whole chain of Dependent Co-arising in forward order (ie. dependent existence) is stopped and ceased. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of dukkha & suffering. > And would that not be as close to an annihilation as anything could > be? Again, depending on how you see it. To a person who is resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the ending of rebirth is nihilism for him. To a person who is not resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the ending of rebirth is simply the ending of dukkha & suffering. Regards, Swee Boon #63793 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:57 pm Subject: Re: not fond of foul scottduncan2 Hi connie, Good one: "I am disgusted with the body, which is like a snake hole, the abode of disease, a mass of misery, the haunt of old age and death, full of various kinds of impurity, dependent on others, without impulse. Therefore, I wish to be quenched. Give me permission, O son. "Nanda, Raahula, and Bhadda, who were free from grief, without taints, firm as mountains standing, reflected on the nature of phenomena: "Woe be to the conditioned state, which is unsteady, without substance like a plantain trunk, like a deceptive mirage, transitory, not lasting. "Indeed, when the Conqueror's aunt, the one who nourished the Buddha, Gotamii, is going to her end, then all conditioned states are impermanent." What about this: Visuddhimagga, XVI, 37 (~Naa.namoli): "...When this being is born in the mother's womb, he is not born inside a blue or red or white lotus, etc., but on the contrary, like a worm in rotting fish, rotting dough, cess-pools, etc., he is born in the belly in a position that is below the receptacle for undigested food (stomach), above the receptacle for digested food (rectum), between the belly-lining and the backbone, which is very cramped, quite dark, pervaded by very fetid draughts redolent of various smells or ordure, and exceptionally loathsome. And on being reborn there, for ten months he undergoes excessive suffering, being cooked like a pudding in a bag by heat produced in the mother's womb, and steamed like a dumpling of dough, with no bending, stretching, and so on..." C'mon Hallmark, make a Mother's Day card out of this. No longer hungry, Scott. #63794 From: connie Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:26 pm Subject: Re: not fond of foul nichiconn Howard: I'm not clear on what you mean by "shrink-wrapping the oldies," but just in case you possibly think I was speaking of "old" persons, let me make it clear that by the common expression "any old person" I meant an arbitrary person - a random individual as opposed to one who has gone far on the path. " Just as psychoanalysis shouldn't be done by any old person, such extreme therapy would be dangerous, I think, when applied by anyone except a Dhammic expert - that is, one who has gone very far on the path *and* who has mastered the needed perfections. " connie: my bad, old chap. i meant "shrink rap" of course. interesting, tho. we must be random sorts. made to wander. the path of the arbitrary bricklayer. otherwise, path is momentous. not so many steps, so 'gone far on the path' is the ariya. might even say an elder. *and* (you said &) i thought of master angulimala's perfection / ripe accumulations of the requisites for liberation founded on courses of good [actions] as the basis for release, to paraphrase therii commentary. peace. #63795 From: "nichiconn" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:30 pm Subject: Re: not fond of foul nichiconn > > Visuddhimagga, XVI, 37 (~Naa.namoli): > > "...When this being is born in the mother's womb, he is not born > inside a blue or red or white lotus, etc., {{...}} and so on..." > > C'mon Hallmark, make a Mother's Day card out of this. > > No longer hungry, > > Scott. > Great Scott! I did send that card when my daughter was expecting. O dear, maybe I should reconsider what I think Mac meant when he told her "Your mother IS Slingblade" the other day. #63796 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:40 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas ( scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Beautiful! P: "Too much editing here, hoser! I don't know what the two extremes in question are. Of course I will go and read Han's post." Way to write before you read: "But just to note that the "try to adjust" sounds a little too controlling..." Its a figure of speech, a conventional-language thing. The paradox of putting-it-into-words. See the "two extremes" and you'll see you fell into the trap, as it were. P: "Hope you're still getting blissed out by ndsc and the other paccayas. I look forward to discussing them at length with you some day. (Your enthusiasm conditioned wanting-to-study-them-more for me , thanks.)" I am. Fantastic stuff. The complexity and the anatta! Stunningly somethingorother. Glad your in the ocean. With loving kindness, Scott. #63797 From: connie Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:10 pm Subject: Re: not fond of foul nichiconn Begging your pardon, Scott, I mispoke in my excitement over the Hallmark selection. The version I sent Marisa was from the Dispeller, pp115- v1: "meaning of suffering in birth" << ... birth is not itself suffering. But by being the basis for the arising of suffering [96] it is called suffering. But of what suffering is it the basis? The suffering of the states of woe made evident by the Blessed One by means of simile in such places as the Baalapa.n.dita (M iii 165 ff) & the suffering which arises in a state of bliss [and] in the human world, and is classed as rooted in the descent into the womb, etc. in the human world - it is the basis for all that. 457. Herein, this suffering classed as "rooted in descent into the womb and so on" is this: for when this being is born (cf Vis 500 f and 598) in the mother's womb, he is not born inside a blue or [red] or white lotus, etc., but on the contrary, like a worm in rotting fish, rotting curds, cesspools, etc., he is born in a part of the belly which is below the receptacle for undigested food (stomach); above the receptacle for digested food (rectum), b/n the bell-lining & the backbone, which is very cramped, quite dark, pervaded by the supremely fetid draughts of impurity (21), redolent of various smells of ordure and exceptionally loathsome. And, on being reborn there, for 10 months he undergoes excessive suffering being cooked like a pudding in a bag by the heat produced in the mother's womb and steamed like a dumpling of dough, with no bending and stretching, etc.; so this firstly is the suffering which is rooted in the descent into the womb. 458. But when the mother suddenly stumbles or moves or sits down or gets up or turns round, the extreme suffering he undergoes by being dragged back and forth and jolted up and down, like a kid fallen into the hands of a drunkard, or like a snake's young fallen into the hands of s snake-charmer; and also the sharp pain he undergoes, as though he had appeared in the cold hells, when his mother drinks cold water, and as though deluged by a rain of embers when she swallows hot rice-gruel, rice, etc., and as though come to the torture of the "lye-pickling" (see M i 87) when she swallows what is salt or acid, etc, - this is the suffering rooted in gestation. >> #63798 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:09 pm Subject: Re: not fond of foul scottduncan2 Dear connie, c: "Great Scott! I did send that card when my daughter was expecting." Perfect! "O dear, maybe I should reconsider what I think Mac meant when he told her "Your mother IS Slingblade" the other day." A percipient one, o dark woman...mmh hmm. Scott. P.S. For the wee one, as a consolation: "The pain that arises in him after he is born, and his body, which is as delicate as a tender wound, is taken in the hands, bathed, washed, rubbed with clothes, etc., and which pain is like being pricked with needle points and gashed with razor blades, etc..." Visuddhimagga XVI, 41. #63799 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Groundhog Day Reflections upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/29/06 8:53:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > To a person who is not resolved on his "Self" or his conceit "I", the > ending of rebirth is simply the ending of dukkha &suffering. > > ================= What do you mean by being resolved "on" something? For example, to be resolved on ignorance or on self? I don't understand that usage. I'm not used to seeing "resolved on" except possibly being resolved on doing something or other. I may be resolved on studying Dhamma and on meditating, for example What exactly do you mean by the usage of being resolved on a thing? Do you mean being obsessed by it, or something like that? In any case, as far as I'm concerned, when freedom has been realized, it doesn't matter whether experience arises or not. Once nibbana is realized, there already is perfect freedom. Nothing more is required, neither presence nor absence, for perfection is already there. The rebirth of (sense of) me and mine is already over and done with, the rebirth of (sense of) self is already over and done with, the rebirth of grasping and of the sense of graspable entities is already over and done with. Some folks, though, seem to crave the complete termination of experience. What is there to crave in that? If nibbana is desired because it is thought of, not as an end to the three poisons, but as the end of everything, how does that differ from the escapist wish of any prospective suicide? Despite the form of the word, a suicidal person isn't after the cessation of some thing called his/her "self", but is after the cessation of experience. The realization of no self in the person and no self in dhammas is the goal of the Dhamma, not an aversive fleeing from experience and running towards absolute nothingness. A goal of nothingness is EXACTLY a nihilist goal. The enemies of the Dhamma accuse it of being a nihilism. But nibbana is NOT a nothingness, and the suggestion that it is encourages the view of Buddhism as a species of nihilism, as I see it. With metta, Howard