#64200 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Object of the three cittas hantun1 Dear Nina and others, Nina: The patisandhi-citta of the next life can take B as object, if the last javanacittas of the preceding life had B. It is possible that a similar kamma (similar to the kamma that conditioned the patisandhicitta of the present life) conditions again A as object during the last javanacittas. We read that generosity could condition a happy rebirth for seven lives. There are many scenarios and not many texts give details. I found one text in the Patthana, and I wrote this in my Conditions (Ch 4, proximity-condition): < We read in the "Paììhåna'' (Feeling Triplet, Vedanå-ttika, VII, Investigation Chapter, Conditions: Positive, Classification Chapter, Proximity 7,§ 45,2): 'State associated with pleasant feeling is related to state associated with neither painful nor pleasant feeling by proximity-condition. Death-consciousness associated with pleasant feeling is related to rebirth-consciousness associated with neither painful nor pleasant feeling by proximity-condition.' When rebirth-consciousness is accompanied by indifferent feeling, it may be kusala vipåkacitta, but it can also be akusala vipåkacitta and in that case there is rebirth in an unhappy plane.> Here you see that there is a change of scenario: the patisandhi-citta that suceeds the cuti-citta of the previous life is not identical to it. This may clarify matters. I miss Htoo, has he written about it on his web? I do not know whether Kel is around, he could also ask his teacher. It is good also to listen to others. ------------------------------ Han: Here, I would like to quote pages 222-223 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Mahathera Narada and revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Quote: [To one who is on the verge of death: The last cognitive process begins when the bhavanga is interrupted, vibrates for one moment, and is then arrested. Thereafter follows either a sense-door process taking as object some sense object presenting itself at one of the five sense doors, or a bare mind-door process taking as object either some sense object or a mental object presenting itself at the mind door. Within this terminal process the javana phase, by reason of its weakness, runs for only five mind-moments rather than the usual seven. This process lacks original productive kammic potency, but acts rather as the channel for the past kamma that has assumed the rebirth-generative function. Following the javana stage two registration cittas (tadaarammana) may or may not follow. In some cases the bhavanga may follow the last process cittas. Then, as the very last citta, the death consciousness arises performing the function of passing away from the present life. With the ceasing of the death consciousness, the life faculty is cut off. Then the body remains a mass of inanimate material phenomena born of temperature, and continues as such until the corpse is reduced to dust. Immediately after that has ceased: Following the dissolution moment of the death consciousness, there arises in a new existence the rebirth-linking consciousness apprehending the object thus obtained in the final javana process of the previous life. This citta is supported by the heart-base in realms which include matter, but is baseless in the immaterial realms. It is generated by a volitional formation, i.e. the kamma of the previous javana process, which in turn is grounded in the twin roots of the round of existence, latent ignorance and latent craving. The rebirth consciousness is conjoined with its mental adjuncts, i.e. the cetasikas, which it serves as a forerunner not in the sense that it precedes them, but in that it acts as their locus (or foundation).] End Quote. ------------------------------ Han: The important point from the above quote is that the last javana process takes as object some sense object presenting itself at one of the five sense doors, or either some sense object or a mental object presenting itself at the mind door. These sense object and mental object are the Signs of the Time of Death (maranasanna nimittas). These maranasanna nimittas are described in the same book on page 221. These are (i) a kamma that is to produce rebirth-linking in the next existence, which according to circumstances confronts (the dying person); or (ii) a sign of kamma, that is, a form, etc., that had been apprehended previously at the time of performing the kamma or something that was instrumental in performing the kamma; or (iii) a sign of destiny, that is, (a symbol of the state) to be obtained and experienced in the immediately following existence. Thus, from the above quotes, it is clear that the cuticitta takes one of the Signs of the Time of Death (maranasanna nimittas) as its object during the last javana process. This maranasanna nimitta could not have been experienced by the bhavanga cittas that had been flowing in the person since the patisandhi citta. That’s why I said the object taken by the patisandhi citta of present life and bhavanga cittas of present life is different from the object taken by the cuti citta of the present life, which depends on the last javana process that could not occur before-hand. ------------------------------ Han: However, my Abhidhamma knowledge is nothing compared to that of Nina and other members. If you think that I am wrong, I will most humbly withdraw my statement. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han (and Matheesha). > The patisandhi-citta of the next life can take B as > object, if the > last javanacittas of the preceding life had B. #64201 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu nilovg Hallo Joop, yes, this passage is explained in the Vis., but we come to that with Larry. Follow it along, if you like! Nina. Op 10-okt-2006, om 9:26 heeft Joop het volgende geschreven: > With the arising of the taints there is the arising of ignorance >  > ^ > With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints #64202 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind - need a favor nilovg Dear Charles D, You find a lot in Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, with many quotes from suttas. I wish you all the best with your forthcoming ordination. Let us know about it. Nina. Op 9-okt-2006, om 22:06 heeft Charles DaCosta het volgende geschreven: > Does any one have the time and know how to generate a reference > list of all > the texts that describe or just talk about the 5 aggregates? #64203 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:35 pm Subject: cuticitta. nilovg Dear Han, the quote is clear. Also this: It does not say that the cuti-citta takes that object conditioned by kamma. We read this differently, I think. It merely says that it is the last citta. Do you have the Guide to conditional Relations by U Narada? I found more texts. Nina. #64204 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:55 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi Howard, It is a good idea to view the list of nouns I gave (e.g. the watcher) as just events. However, what I am getting at is - what are the functions of the mind, and are the usual 5 aggregates the aggregates of clinging or the Mind as a whole? And the statement "Mind - that is, mental operations - may be defiled or undefiled" will also be very useful later. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 17:39 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/9/06 11:11:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@POST10. TELE.DK writes: > Hi Howard, > Now, do you consider these the aggregates of the Mind as a whole or just > Clinging? > -------------------------------------- Howard: Mind - that is, mental operations - may be defiled or undefiled. When clung to, they are defiled. -------------------------------------- In other words, what is the mind? Is it the Watcher, Clinger,> > Maintainer, Seeker, Re-actor, or all the above (what else)? ------------------------------------- Howard: There is no watcher, no clinger, no maintainer, no seeker, and no reactor. There are merely "watching", clinging, and so on. These are events - mere empty conditions occurring and ceasing. ==================== <...> #64205 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:40 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] How to explain kamma to a newcomer to Buddhism? ( was Re: Books on Dhamma dacostacharles Hi Phil, Kamma is a confusing subject, especially when you mix in the Hindu/Brahmin view (I am getting what I deserve - my bad karma). I always start explaining karma as just another name for cause-&-effect, and leave out the view that it is punishment. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:27 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] How to explain kamma to a newcomer to Buddhism? ( was Re: Books on Dhamma Hi again all (ps to Jon) I'll just add that one problem I have when talking about Dhamma with Naomi is that it always becomes about kamma - do these bad things happen to me because of kamma, what did I do to deserve to have such a terrible childhood, is the bad way people treat me at work because I did a bad thing in another life? It's always about kamma, kamma, kamma, this life, past lives. It's so hard to get her to appreciate that it is the moment that counts, that trying to work out the way kamma works is just a maddening imponderable. It's also hard to say yes, the bad things that happen to you are because of kamma. That's not a very palatable pill, so I don't say it, I know it'll result in a kind of depressed feeling - "I was a bad person before so this is happening to me now so that means I am a bad person" kind of thing. Yes, telling her it's *not* about "you" it's about a stream of cittas - not so easy. So how do you all explain kamma to newcomers, kids etc. <...> #64206 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:00 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi Howard, I get confused because I still don't know the translation of most of the pali words. However, we agree that feeling is a better word to use instead of sensation? Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 17:07 <....> ====================== I don't understand the confusion, Charles. When I use the English word 'sensation' I mean a rupa, usually a body-door rupa, that is experienced (in a variety of ways, but most basically as mere object of consciousness). I do not consider that rupa as nama. An itch or felt pressure or bodily warmth or whatever is not a knowing of anything - it is merely known. Vedana, on the other hand, which I render in English by 'feeling' is the mental operation of experiencing an object as pleasant, unpleasant, or affectively neutral. With metta, Howard __ #64207 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cuticitta. hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: It does not say that the cuti-citta takes that object conditioned by kamma. We read this differently, I think. It merely says that it is the last citta. Do you have the Guide to conditional Relations by U Narada? I found more texts. ------------------------------ Han: Then, what object does the cuti citta take? If the cuti citta does not take one of the maranasanna nimittas as its object, how can maranasanna nimittas affect the next rebirth? Cuti citta is immediately followed by patisandhi citta of next life. There is no opportunity for any object or citta to come in between cuti citta and patisandhi citta. But as I said, you know very much better than me. So, I will accept whatever you say. No, I do not have the Guide to conditional Relations by U Narada Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, the quote is clear. > Also this: javana stage two registration cittas (tadaarammana) > may or may not follow. In some cases the bhavanga > may > follow the last process cittas. Then, as the very > last > citta, the death consciousness arises performing the > function of passing away from the present life. With > the ceasing of the death consciousness, the life > faculty is cut off. > > It does not say that the cuti-citta takes that > object conditioned by > kamma. We read this differently, I think. It merely > says that it is > the last citta. > Do you have the Guide to conditional Relations by U > Narada? I found > more texts. > Nina. > #64208 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/10/06 5:20:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > > I get confused because I still don't know the translation of most of the > pali words. However, we agree that feeling is a better word to use instead > of sensation? > > > > > > > > Charles DaCosta > ======================== If you mean as a translation of 'vedana', yes, I think it is far better. :-) With metta, Howard #64209 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] fear??? lbidd2 Hi Sarah, S: "This is all good material, but weren't you discussing bhaya-~naa.na (insight into the fearfulness or danger of all conditioned dhammas)?" L: No, that's the only place I could see fear discussed in an abhidhamma context, but I was mostly just interested in fear, proximate cause, etc. Larry #64210 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:55 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind - need a favor lbidd2 Hi Charles, "The 'Khandha Passages' in the Vinayapitaka and the Four Main Nikayas" by Tilmann Vetter, Verlag der Osterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Wien 2000 lists every mention of the 5 khandhas in the Nikayas and Vinaya. And beside Visuddhimagga "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi is very thorough and gives some commentarial references. For modern academic analysis I would recommend "The Five Aggregates: Understanding Theravada Psychology and Soteriology" by Mathieu Boisvert, Wilfred University Press, Canada and "Identity and Experience: The Constitution of the Human Being According to Early Buddhism" by Sue Hamilton, Luzac Oriental, 1996. I particularly like Tilman Vetter but his stuff is difficult to get in U.S. and not always available in english. You might also take a look at your local university library. Larry #64211 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:44 pm Subject: Re: Books on Dhamma scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Sorry for the delay - Hoser Thanksgiving, eh. P: "...And then came Abhidhamma. The answers are laid out, albeit in a way that makes it clear that they are not for us, not yet. But at least everything is explicitly and very clearly laid out in theory. Very thrilling. And now I find myself going back to meditation as taught in those popular books and benefiting from it thanks to understanding a little Abhidhamma that helps me not to take the meditation too seriously, helps me to see that it is not bhavana just by virtue of being a pale imitation of the bhavana described in the suttas." This touches on what I've been pondering lately, amongst other things. I've seen often a sort of "sutta-only" method, if method it is, where one says that if something is not in the suttas it is therefore suspect. And then the adherent of such a method goes on to opine about the meaning of the sutta in question. And this opinion at times seems rather, well, divergent. The sutta descriptions seem in need of elaboration and penetration. I fail to see the wisdom behind a refusal to consider the abhidhamma method or commentarial exposition as a relevant adjunct to the suttas. Is this sutta-only stance merely a transposition of fundamenalist dogmatism? Is it arrogance to claim to have the wisdom to refute what the Ancients elaborated centuries ago? On what basis does one do this, certainly not, for the majority of sutta-onlyists, on any claim to linguistic or much scholarly merit. It all seems to be hearsay-as-fact or some such. Oh well, a wee rant, eh? What do you think? P: "I sometimes wonder how it is for you at work, whether you want to offer Dhamma to your patients/clients but hesitate for professional ethical reasons or other reasons or what. I will ask you about that some day but not now. (But I guess I just did, so you can answer if you'd like.)" Okay. Taking abhidhamma as dhamma and as pristine psychology (and a dynamic one at that) I find that the shift inside me conditioned by a study of the Dhamma is not at all a difficult transition in work, since abhidhamma-cum-psychology is compatible with conventional dynamic psychology. For example, the truth of no-self is quite refreshing to one who suffers under the illusion that he or she actually has control over things and others. I don't have to put it in "Buddhist" terms, I just point out that the person seems to believe in control and that there is none, and those to whom this makes sense were ready to hear it. And then the work is to seek for the conventional roots to this. My point, badly made, is that Dhamma is good psychology as well as Truth. With loving kindness, Scott. #64212 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop & all, > >. > .... > S: How do you translate samsara? > Hallo Sarah, Nina, Jon, all Sarah, my first DSG-rule is: thread discipline. When I started this thread I wanted to discuss Stephen Batchelor and especially Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. So when Nina in fact says: "I'm not interested in the texts of Buddhadasa then I had to say - as polite as possible - "I'm not interested now in the texts of Buddhoghosa. Buddhaghosa is off-topic here. In your message #64190 you ask about 'samsara'; of course I know this (very conventional) concept. And as you could have seen in my #64176, DO contains a (my words) mini-cycle between birth and death: 11--> 12 and 12 --> 11. (It also contains a mini-cycle 1 --> 2 and 2 --> 1) I do not deny that samsara can be seen as a mini-cycle within DO, I stated that samsara is not the same as DO, it's only an aspect of DO; DO is much deeper than silly samsara. Thanks for calling the Patisambhidamagga (although in your quotes I don't know where the Visuddhimagga begins and the Patisambhidamagga ends; why do you quote it via the Vism, isn't there a direct source?) But if I understand your positive intention then the Buddha (and not only Buddhaghosa) said in the Patisambhidamagga: "becoming is condition for delusion" I agree it's in the direction but still this quote is not about the "missing link"; it's not "Ignorance is conditioned by ageing-and-death " But this question I raised some months ago and only repeated because the term 'round' for DO was used, is not my main topic. That main topic is: is that what I understand of DO (not so much) consonant with the texts of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu? I'm not sure; all I know now is that Buddhadasa is clear in his denial that DO is about three lifetimes. But the rest I'm still studying (DO and Buddhadasa) Sarah, you asked about my retreat. You know my third DSG-rule, not being too personal. So I can say: it inspired me to write a reaction on a blog of Batchelor about the 'two truths' (see www.tricycle.com/blog/stephen_batchelor) I quote myself: " In (Theravada-)Abhidhamma the two-truths-theory distinguishes: ultimate realities and conventional ones, also called 'concepts' (cf A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi) I think in fact it's not about two truths or two (kind of) realities but about two languages to describe the undescribable. This can be compared with two languages to describe phenomena in natural science, for example in astrophysics: a natural language (english, dutch etc) or mathematics. To scientists the advantages of mathematics are evident, because of it's build-in logic, but it's still only a language, not 'truth' itself. The same with the abhidhamma language with the processes of dhamma's (phemomena): it has the build-in anatta characteristic (the not- existing of a self). That is really an advantage, it's helpfull in understanding a (insight) meditation session, but no reason to give it the name 'ultimate' or state this 'dhammas' have their own intrinsic nature." Metta Joop #64213 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:40 pm Subject: Re: Books on Dhamma ken_aitch Hi Phil, ------------------ Ph: > These days I'm feeling more and more that it's good for people to benefit from the Buddha's teaching even if they benefit in a way that is full of clinging, full of lobha. (Well, of course it is for all of us, but you know what I mean.) ------------------- Yes, but you and I have DSG dinosaurs standing by with buckets of cold water. As soon as lobha invites wrong view to join the party: look out! :-) ------------------------------ Ph: > Better if it's a deeper way, but even a shallow understanding of Dhamma that is all about becoming a more loving person etc is so superior to the other self- help approaches out there. -------------------- You could be right. But (just thinking aloud) I suspect a first-rate self-help course would be preferable to a second-rate Dhamma course. ------------------------------- <. . .> Ph: > unfortunately, I am not good at *talking* about Dhamma (maybe I should send her e-mails, I'm serious!) ------------------------------- I have tried that with an old school-friend I meet once every few years. Having no success with real-time conversations (mainly because he never stops talking about his own beliefs and philosophies) I sent him an email about paramattha dhammas. He showed no comprehension, no interest, nothing! :-) ------------------------------------- Ph: > On the other hand, she can see that we don't fight any more, haven't had a fight for months now that I'm much more easy going than I used to be, longer-tempered, that sort of thing, -------------------------------------- It's exactly the same with me. After at first being worried and suspicious about my DSG obsession, my wife is now very relaxed and content with it. ------------------------------------------ Ph: > so is interested. So I would like to buy her one of the beginning books, something like Sharon Salzberg's "Loving Kindness", something like that, if they were translated into Japanese. I do not believe that reading Nina's book translated into Japanese (by Robert K's students) will do it, but I should try. Not everyone responds to the Paramattha Dhamma theory. I don't believe she will, somehow. I think one of the popular cozy Dhamma books will be more helpful for her, to begin with - they still contain a lot of good medicine. -------------------------------------------- Hmmm . . . . .. No comment. :-) Ken H PS: BTW, don't feel obliged to reply to this. Put your limited internet time to the best possible use. :-) #64214 From: connie Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:48 pm Subject: Dear Luke-Sky-Watcher, nichiconn I think Octobers might be my favorite months... especially one with a blue moon. Most of this fire season we've seemed to see a lot of orange suns as well. Last night, wispy white clouds seemed to be escaping the red halo encircling the thicker clouds hiding the rabbit on the moon's face but not the fact of the moon being swallowed again. Long live eclipse demons and halloween: "The first truth is vile because it is the 'haunt of many dangers'." but a bit of Designation of Human Types, IV,8: 4 persons comparable to a cloud - What are the four types of persons comparable to the cloud? The four kinds of clouds are: - That which thunders but rains not, that which rains but thunders not, that which both thunders and rains, that which neither thunders nor rains. Thus are to be found in this world four types of persons who are comparable to these four kinds of clouds. And who are they? One who thunders but rains not, one who rains but thunders not, one who rains and also thunders, one who neither thunders nor rains. What sort of person is one who thunders but rains not? Here a certain person does not act up to what he says. Such a man is said to be one who thunders but rains not. Just as the cloud that thunders but rains not, so also is this person. What sort of person is one who rains but thunders not? Here a certain person acts but does not speak. Such a person is said to be one who rains but thunders not. Just as a cloud that rains but thunders not, so also is this person. What sort of person is one who thunders as well as rains? Here a certain person speaks and acts. Such a person is said to be one who thunders as well as rains. Just as the cloud that thunders and rains, so also is this person. What sort of person is one who neither thunders nor rains? Here a certain person neither speaks nor acts. Such a person is said to be one who neither thunders nor rains. Just as the cloud that neither thunders nor rains, so also is this person. These are the four types of men that are found in this world comparable to the cloud. best wishes for fewest clouds of dust! connie ps. i hope the above is in order; you might compare it with this other version: 157. Tattha katame cattaaro valaahakuupamaa puggalaa? Cattaaro valaahakaa- gajjitaa no vassitaa, vassitaa no gajjitaa, gajjitaa ca vassitaa ca, neva gajjitaa no vassitaa. Evameva.m cattaarome valaahakuupamaa puggalaa santo sa.mvijjamaanaa lokasmi.m. Katame cattaaro Gajjitaa no vassitaa, vassitaa no gajjitaa, gajjitaa ca vassitaa ca, neva gajjitaa no vassitaa. Katha~nca puggalo gajjitaa hoti no vassitaa? Idhekacco puggalo bhaasitaa hoti, no kattaa. Eva.m puggalo gajjitaa hoti, no vassitaa. Seyyathaapi so valaahako gajjitaa no vassitaa, tathuupamo aya.m puggalo. Katha~nca puggalo vassitaa hoti no gajjitaa? Idhekacco puggalo kattaa hoti, no bhaasitaa. Eva.m puggalo vassitaa hoti no gajjitaa. Seyyathaapi so valaahako vassitaa no gajjitaa, tathuupamo aya.m puggalo. Katha~nca puggalo gajjitaa ca hoti vassitaa ca? Idhekacco puggalo bhaasitaa ca hoti, kattaa ca. Eva.m puggalo gajjitaa ca hoti vassitaa ca. Seyyathaapi so valaahako gajjitaa ca vassitaa ca, tathuupamo aya.m puggalo. Katha~nca puggalo neva gajjitaa hoti no vassitaa? Idhekacco puggalo neva bhaasitaa hoti no kattaa. Eva.m puggalo neva gajjitaa hoti no vassitaa. Seyyathaapi so valaahako neva gajjitaa no vassitaa, tathuupamo aya.m puggalo. Ime cattaaro valaahakuupamaa puggalaa santo sa.mvijjamaanaa lokasmi.m. #64215 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:52 pm Subject: Wise attention ( was Re: The coin merchant simile (Sarah) gazita2002 Hello Phil, this reply is a bit late in coming, cos dont have much computor time these days. I think the comment 'it has fallen away already' is a good reminder that all is anatta. Its true that we sometimes 'see akusala looming' but its not true that it always occurs. for examplle we think we may do something akusala in the very immediate future but theres no garantee that we will. Yoniso manasikara may arise and stop us! however, I take your point. its amazing how sights and smells can conjure up past events, shows me that sanna is working well. In fact, these days I think I have more confidence in the Buddhas word than ever before. I think its because in my daily life I can see on some level, truth in dhamma and abhidhamma. this has come about not by any trying on my part but that it seems to have just happened. Yes, I listen and read and contemplate so I guess there is 'doing something' but it conditions more confidence when I can see some truth in what I learn. may we all grow in wisdom and understanding, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi again Azita > > > > I think we can fool ourselves that we can 'turn away' from > > > akusala, but dont forget that ea moment has arisen and gone > > > before 'we' have had time to have wise attention. > > I sometimes hear Acharn Sujin say that akusala is "already gone" - > and of course this is true. But the akusala *situation* is still > around, and it seems wise attention can arise to it. For example, > something I have imagined at times as a hypothetical situation which > could *easily* happen. Say I go to Bangkok and am at a Dhamma > discussion, and am trying to concentrate, but the smells and sights > of Bangkok have conditioned akusala proliferation based on memories > of the very bad but at the time very fun things I did there many > years ago. The sights and smells have me itching to head out into > the night to buy some drugs and go to a brothel. Could it be said in > this case that the akusala has already fallen away? So I appreciate > the way the Buddha's teaching guides us in these very non-momentary > situations. Yes, in paramattha terms, we have no freedom of choice, > that's true. But this "the akusala has already fallen away" I hear > from Acharn Sujin quite often - don't quite get it yet because I > often sense grave akusala looming, see it coming, so have trouble > understanding how for someone of my limited insight it can be said > to have already fallen away. Not to worry, will keep listening and > reflecting. > > Phil > #64216 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Att.Sarah. HK gazita2002 Hello Sarah, and other dhamma friends, Now another time and place and HK seems far away. new job, new faces, new places...... great comments from our talk Sarah. think I'm learning that its so helpful to take some notes during these chats as some little gems 'pop' up and then I forget them. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear all, (esp Azita, Sukin & Matt) > > --- sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Azita, > A long, long journey back to Cairns with extra flights now and more > airports in store. But an even longer journey on the Path. One citta at a > time, girl:-) azita: exactly, one citta at a time. how easy to forget this, or no conditions to remember. Sukin kept reminding me while in Bkk, that it is only one citta at a time. All the stories we have going on, hour after hour, day after day, lifetime after lifetime - missed planes, new job, etc. Its interesting, this no-control bit does not make me feel helpless or hopeless but more calm or rather less anxious to change things. Mostly its just lobha instead of dosa !!!!!!!! patience, courage and good cheer, azita. #64217 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:18 am Subject: cuti-citta nilovg Dear Han, ----------- H: But as I said, you know very much better than me. So, I will accept whatever you say. --------- N: No, that is wrong. I am a student, not an expert. Do not accept what someone else says. It is best to check the old texts, such as Patthana. I just quote from Survey, but no need to accept this. -------- H: Then, what object does the cuti citta take? ------ N: The same as the patisandhi-citta and all bhavangacittas of the life that is going to end. --------- H: If the cuti citta does not take one of the maranasanna nimittas as its object, how can maranasanna nimittas affect the next rebirth? Cuti citta is immediately followed by patisandhi citta of next life. --------- N: Correct, it is proximity condition for the patisandhi citta of next life. But this does not mean that the same kamma produces these two kinds of vipaaka. If that would be the case, they would always be of the same type which is not so. I show this below again. -------- H: There is no opportunity for any object or citta to come in between cuti citta and patisandhi citta. ------- N: Right. The force of kamma is powerful, it propells forward to the next life, producing its vipaka accordingly. Kamma falls away but it can produce vipaaka afterwards, because its force is accumulated from moment to moment. Kamma of long ago can produce vipaaka now. It is only in the case of lokuttara cittas that kamma produces vipaaka in the same process, it is akalika. In the quote of Ven. Bodhi it was mentioned that after the last javanacittas there can be bhavangacittas and then cuticitta. Those bhavangacittas are still the results of the kamma that produces all bhavangacittas in the life that is ending, no change. How could they be results of a new kamma? And this also goes for the cuticitta. -------- H: No, I do not have the Guide to conditional Relations by U Narada ------- N: I can recommend it. In Ch IV it gives a list of rebirth after death consciousness. (p. 157). But first we have to remember that there are 19 types of vipaakacittas that can perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti. There are 10 types of kåmåvacara vipåkacittas which can perform the function of rebirth in 11 planes of existence of the sense sphere (kåma bhúmi): investigating-consciousness accompanied by indifferent feeling which is akusala vipåka. investigating-consciousness accompanied by indifferent feeling which is kusala vipåka. 8. kåmåvacara sahetuka kusala vipåkacittas (mahå-vipåka) These are the ten kåmåvacara vipåkacittas which can perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti. Then there are 9 jhanacittas. ------ I take just the first scenario mentioned in the Guide: 4 two-rooted and 2 rootless death-consciousness are related to 10 sensuous rebirth-consciousness. This means that even if you are born with two roots, you can be in the next life be reborn with any of the ten types, and this means: you may be reborn with three roots. The next one in the list (of seven): 4 sensuous three-rooted death consciousness are related to 19 rebirth-consciousness. This means, you are reborn with three roots in this life, thus with pa~n~naa, and then in the next life you may be reborn with vipaakacitta that is ruupavacara or arupavacaara, thus, the result of jhaanacitta. These arise in higher planes. -------- These examples show that the death-consciousness of the present life and the rebirth-consciousness of the next life do not have to be of the same type. Why is that? Because they are produced by different kammas. If you still find this difficult, it does not matter. We can give it a rest. NIna. #64218 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind - need a favor nilovg Hi Charles D, Of course there is in the Kindred Sayings III, a whole book on the khandhas: khandavagga. And all over the Tipitaka the khandhas are dealt with. After all, they are not other than the conditioned dhammas of citta, cetasika and rupa. Nina. #64219 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:35 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 546- Compassion/karu.naa and Sympathetic Joy/muditaa(c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Compassion(karu.naa)and Sympathetic Joy(muditaa) Compassion is different from loving kindness. Loving kindness is the cetasika which is non-aversion, adosa. This cetasika arises with every sobhana citta, but when it has the special quality of loving kindness, mettå, it is directed towards beings; it “sees the lovableness of beings”, according to the Visuddhimagga and and promotes their welfare. When there is loving kindness one treats others as friends. Compassion wants to allay beings’ suffering. Thus, the objectives of loving kindness and compassion are different. For example, in the case of visiting a sick person, there can be moments of loving-kindness when we give him flowers or wish him well, but there can also be moments of compassion when we notice his suffering. We may think that since compassion is directed towards beings who are suffering, there cannot be pleasant feeling accompanying it. However, compassion can arise with pleasant feeling or with indifferent feeling. One can with joy alleviate someone’s suffering. ***** Compassion(karu.naa) and Sympathetic Joy(muditaato) be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #64220 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, Firstly, thank you for the excellent set of answers you gave to the Virati cetasikas questions. --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > First of all I would like to thank you very much for > your patience with me. > Please do not pay too much attention to what I write. > It is like most of what I talked during our meeting at > the Peninsula Hotel - only “idle talks.” .... S: There have been quite a few comments about 'idle talk' recently and you've referred to this from time to time. I'd like to just stress that we are (mostly) here lay-people and we are not anagamis or arahants. There is bound to be idle or worldly talk during the day and yes, there are bound to be lots of akusala cittas arising at such times. But when we are quiet too, there are also lots of akusala cittas in our thoughts and in our bodily actions too. In the texts, they distinguish between ordinary(sama) and extraordinary(visama) lobha. Most of the time when we chatter with family and friends, it's just with ordinary lobha. We're not breaking the precepts or causing any harm to others. There can be awareness anytime of the accumulations which are apparent at these times. In between the idle chat, we also show consideration for the others by asking after their well-being and so on. If we think we shouldn't have fun with friends and family or shouldn't discuss any topics which are not directly related to the Dhamma, I think it's wrong because it's unnatural. For example, when I see Lodewijk we usually chat a little bit about politics or world affairs. When we were last with K.Sujin in the countryside, she'd been watching the news on T.V. and started to tell us about the new Japanese royal baby. With Jon, a lot of our discussions at home are about domestic affairs, bills, investments, chores, work, sport and so on. It's the same when I meet friends who have no interest in the Dhamma. When we have confidence in the path of satipatthana, we know that any dhammas appearing can be the object of sati and panna, so we don't need to be concerned when we meet friends as to whether the discussion is only about the Dhamma. Even when the cittas are clearly akusala, it's an opportunity at such times for panna to know the deeply accumulated tendencies for such. Again, not *my* akusala - just elements:-). Please let me know if you have any comments on this as I always appreciate your feedback. Also, I'd like to say that we thoroughly enjoyed your anecdotes in between our interesting dhamma discussion when we met. It was a most memorable occasion. Thank you for being patient with me as well. Metta, Sarah ======= #64221 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, We've been in agreement in quite a few threads recently....probably won't last:-)) --- upasaka@... wrote: S:> > I'm not exactly sure what Howard had in mind, but I have met people > who've > > really gone off the track in terms of focussed meditations on foulness > and > > I think it can be dangerous too. > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is exactly what I have in mind. A certain mental and > emotional > balance and stability is required for such meditation, .... S: Even here, I'd say there's a big difference between having wise reflection on the foulness of the body (or of any conditioned dhammas for that matter) with equanimity or even joy vs a forced focussing on particular objects in an attempt to see foulness. Usually the latter is with distaste, a kind of dosa and an idea of self selecting the object and trying to see foulness. .... > and for those who > > obviously lack this and also for those who are vulnerable without > realizing their > vulnerability, such practice could lead to depression or worse. ... S: Yes, I agree. .... > For the wrong persons, or the right persons at the wrong time, or > for > the right persons at the right time but inexpertly supervised, even > without > the truly dire results, there is at least the danger of cultivating > aversion > instead of kusala disechantment. These are my concerns. .... S: Exactly, my concerns too. It can also lead to self-inflicted health issues. .... > But not to be completely negative: For the right person at the > right > time and when expertly supervised, meditation on foulness could be just > what > the doctor (a.k.a. the Buddha) ordered. .... S: I think it always comes back to the right understanding of the middle way. If one happens to be reflecting wisely on foulness, even at such times, sati can develop and this reflection too can be seen as a condition dhamma - not something to cling on to. Let me know if you or anyone else has anything further on this rather important thread (imho). Thanks for your perceptive comments and to Scott and Connie for the great extracts:-)). Metta, Sarah ========= #64222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:36 am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 105, 106 and Tiika. nilovg Vis. 105 : [No Single Fruit from Single Cause] Intro: Ignorance conditions kamma-formations, this is the first link of the Dependent Origination. It seems as if there is only one cause that brings one fruit. However, the truth is more intricate. In the following sections it is explained that there are multiple causes that bring multiple fruits, but one cause and fruit as representative are mentioned by the saying: Ignorance conditions kamma-formations. There are several reasons for this and these are explained in the following sections. ------- Text Vis.105: Here it may be asked: But how is this? Is ignorance the only condition for formations, or are there other conditions? ----------- N: The Tiika renders the refutations of a person who reproves (codaka). He says that there are also other conditions that cooperate and which should not be disregarded. There are also the conditioning factors of lobha and so on which are the source of kamma, clinging, the physical base, the object, attention (manasikara) etc. ------------- Text Vis.: What is the position here? For firstly, if it is the only one, there follows the assertion of a single cause;[17] ----------- N: The Tiika explains that the teacher says: What is the position here? Then follows note 17, taken from the Tiika: 'The assertion of a single cause (kaara.na) is undesirable because it follows that there would be production of everything all the time, and because it follows that there would be a single homogeneous state' (Pm.599). N: One identical (ekasadisa) nature (sabhaava) or reality would produce everything. ------------ Text Vis.: but then if there are others, the description of it as a single cause, namely, 'With ignorance as condition there are formations', is incorrect. ------- N: The person who refutes states that many kinds of kamma-formations cannot be conditioned by a single cause. --------------- Text Vis.: --It is not incorrect. Why not? Here is the reason: Nor from a single cause arise one fruit or many, nor one fruit from many; 'tis helpful, though, to utilize one cause and fruit as representative. ------------------------ N: The Tiika gives four possibilities: from a single cause arise one fruit, or arise many, or from multiple causes arises one fruit, or from multiple causes there is multiple fruit. The Tiika states that only the fourth possibility is correct. -------------- Text Vis. 106: Here there is no single or multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. So from multiple causes, in other words, from temperature, earth, seed, and moisture, is seen to arise a multiple fruit, in other words, the shoot, which has visible form, odour, taste, and so on. But one representative cause and fruit given in this way, 'With ignorance as condition there are formations; with formations as condition, consciousness', have a meaning and a use. ---------- Conclusion: In the following paragraphs the reasons are explained why one representative cause and fruit are given. They are basic factors and they are the more obvious factors. Ignorance can accompany wrong view of self. Also clinging to the wrong view of self is a condition for kusala kamma or akusala kamma. One may cling to the idea of a self who will have a happy rebirth and this may motivate one to perform many good deeds. Also at this moment there are multiple causes that can bring multiple fruit. ************ Nina. #64223 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cuti-citta hantun1 Dear Nina, Once again, I thank you very much for your kindness and patience, and your sincere cetana wishing me to understand the subject matter. I have taken note of your points and I will study them carefully. No, I do not find this difficult any more. We can give it a peaceful rest. Thank you very much. With metta and deepest respect, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > ----------- > H: But as I said, you know very much better than me. > So, I will accept whatever you say. > --------- > N: No, that is wrong. I am a student, not an expert. > Do not accep what someone else says. It is best to > check the old texts, such as Patthana. > I just quote from Survey, but no need to accept > this. > > > > > > > > If you still find this difficult, it does not > matter. We can give it a rest. > NIna. > #64224 From: "Cerini Pablo" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:15 am Subject: bhavangacittas cerini_pablo Hi Nina, Howard and all friends, Before posting this, I've read the useful posts of DSG and some pages from Nina and Buddhaghosa about this subject. My mind is building a strange theory about bhavanga. I don't know what to feel about this curious point of view that has arisen in me , so I post it here asking for input. What I'm writing is bizzarre, I know, and probably is dued to my "esoteric" background of readings during my teenhood. In his message 63160 Howard asks if there is a way of experiencing the object of a bhavanga-citta. If "one" should experience it, provided everything has been written about the nature of bhavanga-citta until now, won't the object of a bhavanga-citta be in some way similar to what Crowley could call an "astral body" ? I know this could sound idiot. If so, I beg your pardon, but I had to ask it. Can you please me answer what you think about it, or suggest further readings about the subject ? thank you very much, pablo nina van gorkom wrote: > Bhavangacittas 1. > Dear friends, > Bhavanga-cittas arise when we are in deep sleep and not dreaming. >When we > are in deep sleep, we do not know who we are, where we are, who our >parents > are. But when we wake up there are again objects impinging on the > sense-doors and the mind-door and cittas arising in processes >experience > these objects. Bhavanga-cittas also arise in between the processes of > cittas, they demarcate the different processes. If there were no > bhvanga-cittas in between the processes we would die. The bhavanga- >citta > keeps the continuity in the life of an individual. #64225 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 530- The Three Abstinences /Virati cetasikas (c) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind note. Sarah: Please let me know if you have any comments on this as I always appreciate your feedback. ------------------------------ Han: Yes, I only have deep appreciation for your valuable comments, in particular: (1) speaking about ‘idle talks’, we (mostly) here are lay-people and we are not anagamis or arahants. (2) In the texts, they distinguish between ordinary (sama) and extraordinary (visama) lobha. Most of the time when we chatter with family and friends, it's just with ordinary lobha. We're not breaking the precepts or causing any harm to others. (3) If we think we shouldn't have fun with friends and family or shouldn't discuss any topics which are not directly related to the Dhamma, I think it's wrong because it's unnatural. (4) When we have confidence in the path of satipatthana, we know that any dhammas appearing can be the object of sati and panna, so we don't need to be concerned when we meet friends as to whether the discussion is only about the Dhamma. Even when the cittas are clearly akusala, it's an opportunity at such times for panna to know the deeply accumulated tendencies for such. Again, not *my* akusala - just elements:-). With metta and deepest respect, Han, just the elements (:>) #64226 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:35 am Subject: Re: Dear Luke-Sky-Watcher, scottduncan2 connie, When it rains, it pours... Scott. #64227 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:48 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 105, 106 and Tiika. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Vis. 105 : [No Single Fruit from Single Cause] > Hallo Nina, all N: The Tiika gives four possibilities: from a single cause arise one fruit, or arise many, or from multiple causes arises one fruit, or from multiple causes there is multiple fruit. The Tiika states that only the fourth possibility is correct. J: Perhaps i can repeat my warning of some days ago, (special for readers who meet buddhists of other traditions): One has to take care that this does not end in a non-dual, or said more popular, in a holistic idea in which paticca samuppada (or the sankrit term) is translated as 'interdependent co-arising': everything conditions everything, as is done in some Mahayanic schools. Metta Joop #64228 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:49 am Subject: Dhamma in New York, part 3. nilovg Part 3. Continuation of our discussion with Howard. No Nina, No Lodewijk. N: We are dreaming when we think that things exist. Also when we are awake we are dreaming. But there can be a beginning of awareness of one reality at a time. When there is no mindfulness the situation is the same as in a dream. We think that persons, or food are there already. H: When we say: there is no Nina, no Lodewijk we have to know that there are realities underlying what we call the person Lodewijk. There are processes, emotions, happiness and sadness. They arise and cease. It is an ungoing flow that goes up and down, backwards and forwards. If we say that there are only nama and rupa, no person, then we ignore the relationships among phenomena, they are related in a particular way. When one says that this self is real one goes too far into one direction, and when one says that there is nothing at all one also goes too far into another direction. L: There is no Lodewijk makes no sense to me. There is this or that individual with particular accumulations, latent tendencies, we call character. N: We cling so much to persons. When I think of death I realize how much I cling to the other person. H: In case of loss of my wife my whole life would be ripped apart. I am attached, life would be worth nothing. N: I always think that the understanding of ultimate realities helps our social life. H: If one trains one’s thinking in that way one tends to create a sense of impersonality, one creates detachment. (Nina: an addition now: I believe that it is rather a matter of considering more deeply and understanding more and more that dhammas are elements which are beyond control, non-self. Rather than training one’s thinking I would emphasize understanding that can lead to detachment.) N: Khun Sujin always stresses that the development of understanding begins with detachment. It has to be developed during all one’s daily activities. If one tries to do something other than this one goes off track. We have to go straight by understanding the reality that appears at this moment through one of the six doors. We need to have patience. There are many things we do not understand yet, and we need patience to listen more, to have more understanding. H: Absolutely, this is very important. We have to listen, reflect, understand more. This is watching what happens and realizing it in the moment, as best as you can. N: If one thinks of realizing the arising and falling away of realities, this step is too fast. H: The more you watch, the finer you can see. You can never see reality exactly as it is if you do not watch. N: In which way? H: What are the choices ;-) ? N: Just now, this moment. H: I do think formal meditation can calm the mind, it helps not to go to extremes of distraction. It makes it easier to pay attention to what is happening in the moment. I do not think of having unusual states of mind or seeing infinite light. It removes some of the excess of distractions. When we are wildly distraught there is no way that we can adequately attend to what is happening. N: You could realize that even this is conditioned. H: I think it is very, very useful to cultivate the mind to be a bit calmer, a bit less distracted. Kusala qualities can be cultivated. We can do things for the future: study and contemplation. This conditions good results for the future. N: You can say that there is also an opportunity for calm when listening to tapes, reading suttas, reflection. For everybody it will be different. H: We do not start where we want to be, we start where we are. Mindfulness is a skill, it has to be cultivated, it does not come by good luck. Not by wishing, but by practice. N: It is better if we let it happen. Sati arises by its own conditions. It arises so unexpectedly. --------------- Nina. #64229 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:32 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 91 nilovg Dear friends, When a sense-door process of cittas begins, the rúpa which has impinged on that sense-door is experienced. When the sense-door process of cittas which experience a rúpa such as visible object or sound is over, that object has also fallen away. Cittas succeed one another extremely rapidly and very shortly after the sense-door process of cittas is over, a mind-door process of cittas begins. The cittas of the mind-door process which follows upon the sense-door process experience through the mind-door the rúpa which has just fallen away. Before the mind-door process begins, however, there are bhavanga-cittas. Bhavanga-cittas arise in between the different processes of cittas. The last two bhavanga-cittas arising before the mano-dvåråvajjana-citta, the mind-door-adverting consciousness, are the bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) and the bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga)1). Then the mano-dvåråvajjana-citta adverts to the object through the mind-door and it is succeeded by seven kusala cittas or akusala cittas (in the case of non-arahats). Summarizing these cittas, they are: bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga) mano-dvåråvajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting- consciousness) seven akusala or kusala cittas (or, for the arahat: kiriyacittas) When the mind-door process is over, the stream of bhavanga-cittas is resumed until there is again a process of cittas experiencing an object through one of the sense-doors or through the mind-door. There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising throughout our life in between the processes of cittas experiencing an object through one of the sense-doors or through the mind-door. -------- 1) The atiita bhavanga, which is merely one moment of bhavanga which elapses before the bhavanga-calana and the bhavangupaccheda preceding a sense-door process, is not counted again before the mind-door process starts. ******** Nina. #64230 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:37 am Subject: Letters from Nina, no 72 nilovg Dear friends, We read in the 'Mughapakkha Jataka' that the Bodhisatta was born as the son of the King of Kasi and received the name 'Temiya'. He remembered that in a former life when he was a King he condemned people to death. As a result of akusala kamma he was reborn in hell. After that he was reborn as Prince Temiya. When he remembered these former lives he decided that he did not want to succeed his father as King and therefore he pretended to be cripple, deaf and dumb. Five hundred infants born to the concubines of the King were his companions. When they cried for milk he did not cry, reflecting that to die of thirst would be better than to reign as king and risk rebirth in hell. In order to test him he was given milk after the proper time or not at all, but he did not cry. The nurses spent one year in trying him but did not discover any weak point. In order to test him the other children were given cakes and dainties and they quarreled and struck one another. The Bodhisatta would not look at the cakes and dainties. He said : 'O Temiya, eat the cakes and dainties if you wish for hell'. People kept on trying him in many ways but he was always patient and composed, realizing the danger of an unhappy rebirth. People tried to frighten him with a wild elephant and with serpents but they did not succeed. They tempted him with pleasant objects. Performances of mimes were given and the other children shouted 'bravo' and laughed, but Temiya did not want to look and remained motionless, reflecting that in hell there never would be a moment of laughter and joy. In order to find out whether he was really deaf they let conch blowers make a burst of sound , but they could not through a whole day detect in him any confusion of thought or any disturbance of hand or foot, or even a single start. They smeared his body with molasses and put him in a place infested with flies which bit him, but he remained motionless and perfectly apathetic. When he was sixteen years old they tried to tempt him with beautiful women who were dancing and singing. We read: '...but he looked at them in his perfect wisdom and stopped his inhalations and exhalations in fear lest they should touch his body, so that his body became quite rigid.' ********** Nina. #64231 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 105, 106 and Tiika. nilovg Hallo Joop, > Everything conditions everything. That sounds rather vague. No > danger here. It is indicated very precisely by which conditioning > factors (of the twentyfour conditions as taught in the Patthana) > one link conditions the next link. That is why we went over all the > twentyfour conditions before arriving at this section. Nina. Op 11-okt-2006, om 15:48 heeft Joop het volgende geschreven: > One has to take care that this does not end in a non-dual, > or said more popular, in a holistic idea in which > paticca samuppada (or the sankrit term) is translated > as 'interdependent co-arising': everything conditions everything, > as is done in some Mahayanic schools. #64232 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: not fond of foul upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/11/06 5:25:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard &all, > > We've been in agreement in quite a few threads recently. ------------------------------------------ Howard: LOL! Yes, amazing, isn't it! LOLOL! ------------------------------------------ ...probably won't> > last:-)) ------------------------------------------- Howard: No doubt! ;-)) Anicca, you know! ;-) ------------------------------------------- > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > S:> >I'm not exactly sure what Howard had in mind, but I have met people > >who've > >>really gone off the track in terms of focussed meditations on foulness > >and > >>I think it can be dangerous too. > >> > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > This is exactly what I have in mind. A certain mental and > >emotional > >balance and stability is required for such meditation, > .... > S: Even here, I'd say there's a big difference between having wise > reflection on the foulness of the body (or of any conditioned dhammas for > that matter) with equanimity or even joy vs a forced focussing on > particular objects in an attempt to see foulness. Usually the latter is > with distaste, a kind of dosa and an idea of self selecting the object and > trying to see foulness. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Comtemplation of "foulness" may be just the right medicine for certain people, but I suspect not so good for many folks, and, without proper guidance sightly-to-extremely dangerous for most. For me, because I do have a "sensuous" nature, I find a brief thought or two in the direction of "seeing through" deceptive, superficial beauty to be occasionally salutory, but beyond that I would find the practice to be pretty much ineffectual (for myself) due to what I see as an "artificiality" to it. The "artificiality" aspect is even stronger for me as regards intentional cultivation of metta, karuna, and mudita, which I am inclined to anyway, and perhaps *because* I am so inclined, whereas cultivation of upekkha seems less artificial to me, no doubt because I am more in need of that! LOL! One thing, BTW, that I am happy about is that I tend towards easy and effective introspection, and I am rarely fooled with regard to "my" tendencies, both bad and good. ------------------------------------------------------- > .... > >and for those who > > > >obviously lack this and also for those who are vulnerable without > >realizing their > >vulnerability, such practice could lead to depression or worse. > ... > S: Yes, I agree. > .... > > For the wrong persons, or the right persons at the wrong time, or > >for > >the right persons at the right time but inexpertly supervised, even > >without > >the truly dire results, there is at least the danger of cultivating > >aversion > >instead of kusala disechantment. These are my concerns. > .... > S: Exactly, my concerns too. It can also lead to self-inflicted health > issues. > .... > > But not to be completely negative: For the right person at the > >right > >time and when expertly supervised, meditation on foulness could be just > >what > >the doctor (a.k.a. the Buddha) ordered. > .... > S: I think it always comes back to the right understanding of the middle > way. If one happens to be reflecting wisely on foulness, even at such > times, sati can develop and this reflection too can be seen as a condition > dhamma - not something to cling on to. > > Let me know if you or anyone else has anything further on this rather > important thread (imho). > > Thanks for your perceptive comments and to Scott and Connie for the great > extracts:-)). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================== With metta, Howard #64233 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:23 am Subject: bhavangacittas nilovg Dear Pablo, I appreciate your interest. No question is silly. It is good you ask, but forgive my ignorance about Crowley. I try to answer anyway, sensing what you mean. ---------- P: In his message 63160 Howard asks if there is a way of experiencing the object of a bhavanga-citta. If "one" should experience it, provided everything has been written about the nature of bhavanga-citta until now, won't the object of a bhavanga-citta be in some way similar to what Crowley could call an "astral body" ? -------- N: The object of bhavangacitta cannot be known by us, since bhavangacitta does not arise in a process of cittas experiencing an object through the senses or the mind-door. Since it is citta, it must experience an object. It is the 'same' object as the first citta in life and this is the 'same' as the object of the last javanacittas of the preceding life which were conditioned by the kamma that produces the first citta in this life. It is very beneficial that the Buddha taught us about bhavangacittas, although we cannot experience its object. As I said, the Patthana, the book of the Abhidhamma on Conditions (much respected), deals with the bhavangacitta. Thus it is not merely a subject dealt with in the commentaries. The Commentaries which are completely in agreement with the Tipitaka, give us more details. Why is it useful to learn about bhavangacitta? It teaches us that our life is an uninterrupted current of cittas. One citta falls away and then it is succeeded by the next one. Also when we are in deep sleep, or unconscious, and in between the processes of cittas there is still citta, the bhavangacitta. All kammas that were performed, even in the far past, all good and bad inclinations are accumulated in each citta, from moment to moment. That is why results of kamma can be experienced later on, even in the far future. That is why suddenly akusala citta can arise, or kusala citta. That is why understanding can grow little by little! Thus, the teaching of bhavangacitta helps us to understand our life: why we have to receive pleasant or unpleasant results, why this sorrowful event has to happen, why defilements often get the better of us. Is it not beneficial to have more understanding of the ups and downs of life? Nina. #64234 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:56 am Subject: Mind. The Pentad of sense impression. nilovg Hi Howard and Charles D, ------- H:In the list given in MN 9, there are vedana and sa~n~na explicity. I suppose that volition is representative of the larger sankharakkhandha, and that phassa is standing in for vi~n~nana. In that list, attention is being given attention, it seems! ;-) I don't know why the Buddha in that teaching broke nama down as he did. Perhaps the commentaries have some light to shed on that. It is exactly the sort of thing I would look to the commentaries for. :-) ----------- This was given in MN 9: three mental khandhas are mentioned as: vedanaa, sa~n~naa, and sankhaarakkhandha including volition, phassa, manasikaara (attention). This in the talk on nama-rupa, that is the link of D.O. comprising: cetasikas and rupa. Not citta. In the list of the dhammasangani the classification is different: (at the beginning): contact, feeling, sa~n~naa, volition, citta, and then follow many other cetasikas, and attention is not mentioned but implied by the what-so-evers, yevaapanakaa. The Pentad of phassa: here phassa is mentioned first. This is in the satipatthanasutta. See also the Netti (the Guide), footnote on p. 28. As Ven. Nyanaponika says, these lists are not rigid classifications, and they are not exhaustive. We find different enumerations in different contexts. To help those who need to be guided to enlightenment (veneyya). Nina. #64235 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:50 pm Subject: How to explain kamma to a newcomer to Buddhism? ( was Re: Books on Dhamma ken_aitch Hi again Phil, I've been thinking about this for hours, and still haven't come up with the prefect advice for children and newcomers. (No surprises there!) As with all meaningful-advice-giving, the trick is to first understand it yourself. :-) ---------------- <. . .> Ph: > It's so hard to get her to appreciate that it is the moment that counts, that trying to work out the way kamma works is just a maddening imponderable. It's also hard to say yes, the bad things that happen to you are because of kamma. That's not a very palatable pill, so I don't say it, I know it'll result in a kind of depressed feeling - "I was a bad person before so this is happening to me now so that means I am a bad person" kind of thing. Yes, telling her it's *not* about "you" it's about a stream of cittas - not so easy. ----------------- I know what you mean by 'streams of cittas' but it is not a term we see very often in the texts, and I wonder if it is any more helpful, or meaningful, than the usual concepts - 'people' and 'individuals.' Perhaps concepts would be helpful if we could know, 'This stream of cittas has performed good kamma and has good vipaka coming to it, while that stream of citta has performed bad kamma and has bad vipaka coming to it.' But we can't know that. Similarly, they would be useful if we could know, 'This stream of cittas has accumulated good tendencies and will therefore perform more good kamma, while that stream of cittas has bad accumulations and will perform bad kamma.' As Sarah has been explaining lately, our current good (or bad) habits might be due to various past and present temporary circumstances. We can't know what extremes of behaviour we are capable of given other circumstances (as will probably be encountered in the future). So, it seems we worldlings have no meaningful way of distinguishing one [conceptual] being from another. ----------------- Ph: > So how do you all explain kamma to newcomers, kids etc. Especially re horrific things like child abuse? The truth is that harsh vipaka *is*, of course, a resultant of kamma. Is this a case where it's best to sweeten the truth? ----------------- Somehow, you have to explain that no instance of vipaka (a reality) can tell us anything meaningful about a person (a concept). For example, when a rock landed on the Buddha's foot and crushed it painfully, the people standing by were unharmed. (!) What did that tell us? Vipaka is simply the result of long ago kamma - it doesn't tell us anything about the person, or stream of cittas it "happens to." Ken H #64236 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:28 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: self dacostacharles Daniel, Your lack of a response leads me to believe you don't (for what ever reason). If you just want the information then it doesn't matter what you believe. I use to pride my self on being a walking textbook, however life got really tough so I need help. This made me need a practical approach, after all I needed help. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles DaCosta Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 17:32 Daniel, Do you believe the 4 noble truths are correct? Do you believe the 8 Fold path is the way to live ones life? Charles DaCosta <...> #64237 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:49 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind dacostacharles Hi Howard, So the aggregates of "mentality" (i.e., the Mind) are: 1) Feelings, a state from: pleasant to unpleasant, including affectively neutral. 2) Perception, 3) Volition, 4) Contact and attention. Are they considered the aggregates of clinging or the Mind as a whole? I must admit that I think the term "Awareness" covers the terms "Contact and attention." What do you think/feel? Awareness can be defined as a state ranging from: unaware to contact with full attention. How do we define each of these aggregates? I am beginning to see these aggregates more as abilities (i.e., the actually component of the mind is the mechanism for Awareness, Perception, Feelings, Volition). What do you see as the functions of the mind? Charles DaCosta PS: Please say something if you think I am wrong. #64238 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:23 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Existence dacostacharles Hi Sarah, In Humans there is a sense of balance (not mentioned by the Buddha since it is unrelated to suffering). In birds there is a sense of direction (they appear to have a compass in their heads). Sharks can sense, from a distance, the electrical discharges of working muscles. Got to hit the sack Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sarah abbott Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:21 Hi Charles, <...> > Would you really limit all non-human sentient beings to having 6 senses > only? .... S: Only 6 worlds no matter who or what. Perhaps you'd give me an example of a 7th doorway or 'sense'. Metta, Sarah ======== #64239 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/11/06 6:09:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > > So the aggregates of "mentality" (i.e., the Mind) are: > > 1) Feelings, a state from: pleasant to unpleasant, including affectively > neutral. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: When you speak of feelings, I suspect you mean mental "things" that are objects of consciousness. I don't think of them that way. I think of them as mental activities that consist of "knowing" an object affectively; i.e., "knowing" it as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. ------------------------------------------------ > > 2) Perception, ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I personally prefer to translate 'sa~n~na' as 'recognition' instead of 'perception'. ---------------------------------------------- > > 3) Volition, > > 4) Contact and attention. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The items (1) - (4) constitute one list. There are many sorts of mental operations and states. ----------------------------------------------- > > > > Are they considered the aggregates of clinging or the Mind as a whole? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not sure I understand your question. They are particular mental operations. Very frequently, in worldlings and even in ariyans who are not arahants, they are ignorantly clung to - as "me" or "mine", as objects of desire, as objects of aversion, and as seemingly self-existent (independent) "things". But "mind as a whole" is just concept. ------------------------------------------------ > > > > I must admit that I think the term "Awareness" covers the terms "Contact and > attention." What do you think/feel? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Usually, the term 'awareness' is used either for mindfulness or consciousness. Contact is the coming together (or co-occurrence) of consciousness, sense-door (activation), and sense-object. Actually, when any one of those three occurs, they all occur. I view them as mutually dependent. So, I personally don't think of contact as a mental concomitant of its own, but just as a term for the tripartite event of knowing an object via a sense door. Attention is a true concomitant, IMO. It is not just the knowing of an object but is a kind of highlighting of the object. The greater the attention, the more clearly is the object known. ------------------------------------------------- > > Awareness can be defined as a state ranging from: unaware to contact with > full attention. > > > > How do we define each of these aggregates? ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'll leave that for someone else. ;-) ------------------------------------------ > > > > I am beginning to see these aggregates more as abilities (i.e., the actually > component of the mind is the mechanism for Awareness, Perception, Feelings, > Volition). ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, abilities - or activities or operations. ----------------------------------------- > > > > What do you see as the functions of the mind? > > > > > > > > Charles DaCosta > > > > PS: Please say something if you think I am wrong. > ========================== Charles, I speak largely from my own introspection on this topic, and not based on Abhidhamma or even that much on the detailed discussions in the Samyutta Nikaya, which, BTW, might be very much to your liking. I hope that some others here will participate a bit more in this thread to provide you with a more "official" Theravadin perspective. BTW, someone mentioned the Boisvert book on the aggregates. That might be a good source for you. With metta, Howard #64240 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Nina, and Joop, Apologies if this is forward of me; I'm interested in this as well and have been reading in this section lately: J: "I'm interested in this and would like to follow it along a bit further. Can you refer me to the passages in Vism or the commentaries where DO is described in terms of a wheel or cycle? Thanks. (I think I asked you for this when you brought the matter up before ..." Visuddhimagga XVII, 273 (Section C. The Wheel of Becoming) [(i)The Wheel] "Now here at the end sorrow, etc., are stated. Consequently, the ignorance stated at the beginning of the Wheel of Becoming thus, 'With ignorance as condition there are formations', is established by the sorrow and so on. So it should be accordingly understood that: *Becoming's Wheel reveals no known beginning; No maker, no experiencer there; Void with a twelvefold voidness, and nowhere It ever halts; forever it is spinning." (*Sokaadiihi aviija, siddhaa bhavacakkamaviditaadimicada.m Kaarakavedakarahita.m, dvaadasavidhasu~n~nataasu~n~na.m. Satata.m samita.m pavattatiiti veditabha.m.) The paali "bhavacakkakathaa" appears to have been translated as "Wheel of Becoming" in this instance, at least. With loving kindness, Scott. #64241 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma ken_aitch Hi Howard, ---------------- <. . .> KH: > > In reality there is only one citta, and that is the citta of the present moment. H: > Does that one present citta cease? Is it replaced by a new one? Or does it somehow remain, yet change? ----------------- It ceases after conditioning another to arise in its place. Nothing remains in any sense whatsoever. -------------------------- H: > Are you *certain* there is but *one* citta -------------------------- Yes. Occasionally I consider the possibility of two or more simultaneous cittas, and it just doesn't work. There would be multiple vipakas, multiple kammas, . . multiple personalities. --------------------------------- H: > - the " present one? --------------------------------- Of course! What else? ----------------- H: > It seems to me that when we take any of these notions too seriously, we get lost in a "maze of impossibility". Words and concepts fail when it comes to reality. ----------------- To me, it is the opposite. It all fits so well together I can't imagine ultimate reality any other way. But perhaps that is not what you meant. Please elaborate if need be. ------------------------- <. . .> H: > Yes it is all, in reality, impersonal, conditioned, and empty. Do you SEE that? -------------------------- I am tempted to reply, "Does *who* see that?" but don't want to be annoying. :-) Again, if I am missing your point, please elaborate. Ken H #64242 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:52 pm Subject: Happy news! philofillet Hi all I just want to share some very happy news. As I said in another post, I've never been successful in getting my wife (and more importantly best friend) Naomi interested in Dhamma. Never really pursued it too hard, and when I did she rejected the attempts. Yesterday, conditioned by having posted on the topic, I brought up a sutta that I am very interested in these days, MN 19. I asked her to read it together with me. "Don't tell me what to read! I don't like it when people tell me what to read!" (Sorry if I make her sound like a shrew, she's not - there are reasons she doesn't like to be told what to do.) But at some point I had read out some lines from it "these thoughts of ill will lead to my harm, to the harm of others, and to the harm of both, the obstruct wisdom, cause difficulties and lead away from nibbana" or words to that effect. And those words caught her, she asked me a bit later what I had said. And we studied it together, I made a funny chart laying it out, put it on the wall. I'm so happy that I am crying bit right now - to think that Naomi will have refuge in the Dhamma as well - or steps have been taken in that direction at least. Of course a lot of attachment there as well, but so be it. Phil p.s thanks for responses in the questions I asked - back in a few days. #64243 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:10 pm Subject: Re: Happy news! scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Re: the below: P: "...I'm so happy that I am crying bit right now - to think that Naomi will have refuge in the Dhamma as well - or steps have been taken in that direction at least. Of course a lot of attachment there as well, but so be it." This is very good and happy news, Phil! With loving kindness, Scott. #64244 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/11/06 9:46:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ---------------- > <. . .> > KH: >>In reality there is only one citta, and that is the citta of > the present moment. > > H: >Does that one present citta cease? Is it replaced by a new one? > Or does it somehow remain, yet change? > ----------------- > > It ceases after conditioning another to arise in its place. Nothing > remains in any sense whatsoever. > > -------------------------- > H: >Are you *certain* there is but *one* citta > -------------------------- > > Yes. Occasionally I consider the possibility of two or more > simultaneous cittas, and it just doesn't work. There would be multiple > vipakas, multiple kammas, . . multiple personalities. > > --------------------------------- > H: >- the " present one? > --------------------------------- > > Of course! What else? -------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that at any given time there is but one mindstate - there is awareness of one object, and there are specific mental activities occurring with respect to that object. But there were prior, different states, and there will be yet other ones. How do you picture this? Do you see a slot, with new cittas appearing in it as "time passes by"? Or is there just one time? Don't you find an incredible unreality to every one of these schemes? I sure do! I don't really believe ANY of these pictures. It is all a grand illusion! Everything changes. And there is nothing that changes at all! Time is illusion, and yet it rolls on! Ken, there is no sense to be made of this. We must let it all go. It is all emptiness, and that emptiness itself is empty. All smoke and mirrors, Ken. It seems to me that we need to look, and look, and look - only to see that whatever we think "it" is, it really isn't. And that's just fine! (So long as we just let it all go!) ----------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > H: >It seems to me that when we take any of these notions too > seriously, we get lost in a "maze of impossibility". Words and > concepts fail when it comes to reality. > ----------------- > > To me, it is the opposite. It all fits so well together I can't > imagine ultimate reality any other way. > > But perhaps that is not what you meant. Please elaborate if need be. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I said it above. It just flowed out, and I avoided interposing "my self" on that flow, for that would have ruined it. ----------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------- > <. . .> > H: >Yes it is all, in reality, impersonal, conditioned, and empty. Do > you SEE that? > -------------------------- > > I am tempted to reply, "Does *who* see that?" but don't want to be > annoying. :-) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Or artificial. ------------------------------------------- > > Again, if I am missing your point, please elaborate. > > Ken H > ====================== With metta, Howard #64245 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:26 pm Subject: Re: Happy news! philofillet Hi Scott Thanks! Let's let Scott be the designated respondent to this - no need for other folks to chip in. I'm confident you share my joy on this. (mudita) Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Phil, > > Re: the below: > > P: "...I'm so happy that I am crying bit right now #64246 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:36 pm Subject: Re: Happy news! (Matheesha) philofillet HI again Also a word of thanks to Matheesha because his link to the Bhikkhu Bodhi MN talks have been very important in this - plus his question about Dhamma books is what got me thinking.... Phil #64247 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cuti-citta kelvin_lwin Hi Nina and Han, I know you have given this subject a rest but since you referred to me in earlier post, I thought I respond anyway but you don't need to read further. :) - Kel What Nina said is my understanding according to my teacher also. Pati, Bhavanga and Cuti are the same citta with the same object in a given life. I think the sticky point is the rapid change of object from Ja to Cuti for you. Consider the following from vithi I copied from Min Tin Mon book. Pa–Ca–Sam–Na–Vo–Ja–Ja–Ja–Ja–Ja–Bha–Cuti–Pañi In this maransana-vithi, Bha arises after Ja has a different object from Ja. So it makes sense that Cuti can also have different object by the nature of these cittas and how they're just "space fillers". Cuti just happen to be the name of last space filler citta of a particular life. #64248 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 105, 106 and Tiika. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hallo Joop, ... Hallo Nina, all Nina: "The Tiika gives four possibilities: from a single cause arise one fruit, or arise many, or from multiple causes arises one fruit, or from multiple causes there is multiple fruit. The Tiika states that only the fourth possibility is correct." I responded to your quote with some doubts; you responded to it with: Nina: "Everything conditions everything. That sounds rather vague. No danger here. It is indicated very precisely by which conditioning factors (of the twentyfour conditions as taught in the Patthana) one link conditions the next link. That is why we went over all the twentyfour conditions before arriving at this section." A longer quote to make my doubt more clear. 'Doubt' namely that the Tiika changed the dependent origination from the way Buddha explained it in the Suttas to a non-dual (cf advaita vedanta) direction of interdependent co-arising So I'm not sure that the Tiika is correct. "According the theory of dependent origination, things arise from conditions. It is a theory of how one thing arises from another, or from a group of others. The arising is sequential. One thing leads to another. The purpose and merit of this theory was that; - it provides a sense of purpose - it provides a basis for ethics, since things have consequences - it does anway with the need for either a god above or a metaphysical substratum below The Buddha's ideology, therefore, was essential constructive, moral and ontologically nonhierarchical. DO provides a theory of how things are interrelated. … In the Chinese version, the theory comes to be called 'interdependent co-arising, a completely different theory… Co-arising is nonsequential and not really causative … All the apparently separate things arise together [in this co-arising theory] … Interdependent co-arising, leaves us rudderless. If we consider the three virtues of the theory of DO, we see that interbeing undermines them all. Interdependent co-arising has the following characteristics: - It is essentially a steady state theory rather than a progressibve one. If things progress it is not through our agencay. - It does not, therefore, provide much foundation for ethics, since all things, good and bad, are a consequence of all other things … - It cries for a methaphysical basis - for some supramundane Unity or metaphysical substratum from which all things arise. … This theory, therefore, is intrinsically conservative, whereas the original theory of dependent origination was not. " (D. Brazier, The new buddhism, p 102-106) Metta Joop #64249 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cuti-citta nilovg Dear Kel, Thank you for asking your teacher, I was hoping you would. Spacefiller: it arises in the space or gap between different processes of cittas. Nina. Op 12-okt-2006, om 8:00 heeft kelvin_lwin het volgende geschreven: > So it makes sense that Cuti can also have different object > by the nature of these cittas and how they're just "space fillers". > Cuti just happen to be the name of last space filler citta of a > particular life. #64250 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarvatraga-caitasika-dharma pgradinarov Dear All, > In MN 9, the Buddha said "Feeling, > perception, volition, contact and attention - these are called mentality." Of course, these are not the five aggregates. The five dharmas listed above are generally referred to as sarvatraga caitasika- or citta-samprayukta-dharmas, the dharmas that always accompany the operational modes of consciousness (citta-vrtti). Neither are the rupas sensation. One cannot say eye (caksu) is a sensation; neither is the object of the visual organ sensation - the visible objects are not sensations in our mind, they are considered as objective qualities existing out there. The same with sparsa (contact). It is an universally accompanying condition for the rise of citta, there is no citta arising without the preceding contact between the sense-organ and its object, say, the touchable objects (sprastavya) and the tactile organ distributed all over the body skin. In Indian epistemology, there is no difference between sensation and perception; both are considered pratyaksa - the only difference probably being that perception is a fully identified (tadalambana) sensation, so it is nirvikalpika-pratyaksa while sensation is savikalpika-pratyaksa (yet to be identified as such). Kindest regards, Plamen P.S. Sorry for my extensive use of Sanskrit terms, I believe they are easy to be traced down to their Pali equivalents. #64251 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 105, 106 and Tiika. nilovg Hallo Joop, Thanks for the article, but, but... I am only at the beginning of my study of D.O. and thus far I find the Vis. text and tiika most helpful. See below. Op 12-okt-2006, om 9:16 heeft Joop het volgende geschreven: > DO provides a theory of how things > are interrelated. N: More than a theory. Abhidhamma is not theory at all. It is to be applied in life, but you also find this, don't you? Brazier says: All this is said in a complicated, rather speculative way. It is not direct, straight to the point, such as the Visuddhimagga and Tiika. Nina. #64252 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cuti-citta hantun1 Dear Kel (and Nina), Thank you very much for your kind explanation quoting a passage from Dr. Mehm Tin Mon’s book. You wrote: [In this maransana-vithi, Bha arises after Ja has a different object from Ja. So it makes sense that Cuti can also have different object by the nature of these cittas and how they're just "space fillers". Cuti just happen to be the name of last space filler citta of a particular life.] But, Kel, "Bha" is not always there. Please see the following: Cakkhu-dvaara Maranaasanna Viithis (1) Pa-Ca-Sam-Na-Vo-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Da-Da-Bha-Cuti-Pati (2) Pa-Ca-Sam-Na-Vo-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Da-Da-Cuti-Pati (3) Pa-Ca-Sam-Na-Vo-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Bha-Cuti-Pati (4) Pa-Ca-Sam-Na-Vo-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Cuti-Pati [same for other sense-doors] Mano-dvaara Maranaasanna Viithis (1) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Da-Da-Bha-Cuti-Pati (1) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Da-Da-Cuti-Pati (1) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Bha-Cuti-Pati (1) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Cuti-Pati There is no “Bha” in half of the different kinds of Maranaasanna Viithis. Thank you anyway for your kind note. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Kel, > Thank you for asking your teacher, I was hoping you > would. > Spacefiller: it arises in the space or gap between > different > processes of cittas. > Nina. #64253 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cuti-citta hantun1 Dear Kel, Please renumber the following. Sorry for the typing mistake; Mano-dvaara Maranaasanna Viithis (1) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Da-Da-Bha-Cuti-Pati (2) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Da-Da-Cuti-Pati (3) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Bha-Cuti-Pati (4) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Cuti-Pati Han --- han tun wrote: > Dear Kel (and Nina), > > Mano-dvaara Maranaasanna Viithis > (1) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Da-Da-Bha-Cuti-Pati > (1) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Da-Da-Cuti-Pati > (1) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Bha-Cuti-Pati > (1) Ma-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Cuti-Pati > #64254 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:00 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 547- Compassion/karu.naa and Sympathetic Joy/muditaa(d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Compassion(karu.naa) and Sympathetic Joy(muditaa) At the moment of compassion there is calm. Compassion can be developed as a meditation subject of samatha by those who have accumulations to do so. The Visuddhimagga (Chapter IX, 77-124) describes how compassion as one of the divine abidings is to be developed as meditation subject leading to the attainment of jhåna(1). Compassion is developed for the purpose of purification from cruelty. When jhåna is attained compassion can be extended to all beings, and then it has become unlimited. *** 1) With compassion as meditation subject different stages of rúpa-jhåna can be attained, but not the highest stage, since the jhånacittas of the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna are accompanied by indifferent feeling. Compassion can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling and thus it is not the object of the jhånacittas of the highest stage. ***** Compassion(karu.naa) and Sympathetic Joy(muditaato) be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #64255 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:14 am Subject: Dhamma in New York, part 4. nilovg Continuation of our Discussion with Howard. Part 4. H: (This was an experience Howard had years ago at a meditation retreat.) A sense of no self arose unexpectantly, but it did not arise in a vacuum. There was training, meditation, three days in a row for seven hours a day. I paid attention to sensations in the body. There was clear seeing of physical phenomena. I had no sense of personal identity, and it was frightening. Had I been trained in jhana there would have been more calm, not such extreme fear. This experience had a very good effect on my life. There was no intention to create it, but it did not come from nothing. N: The conditions came from the past, your mysticism, accumulated inclinations to Kabala, maybe in past lives. It cannot be the same for everybody. If you try, there may be a sense of self who is doing it. H: Everything one does is defiled by a sense of self. N: When kusala citta arises there is no sense of self, no wrong view. But kusala cittas alternate with akusala cittas. It is important to know their difference and this can be learnt little by little. H: Why should occasional kusala have more effect than the many moments of akusala? N: Kusala can be accumulated. H: You have accumulated akusala as well. N: Yes. H:How should there ever be release from akusala? N: I think of this moment, not of release in the future. Understanding can be accumulated. H: And confusion can gain too. N: Understanding can become stronger. H: Confusion also. N: I have confidence in the Buddha’s teachings. One can develop understanding little by little. H: You can or you might not. N: The Buddha said kusala can be developed. He said in the sutta that it can be done. If it could not be done he would not have told us. (The three of us referred to this sutta, reciting it: (Ang. N. Book of the Twos, Ch 2, §9). H: I do not think both of us interprete it in the same way. N: No, not quite in the same way, we disagree ;-) ;-) I understand that this is your way, your background, your accumulations. How could you force yourself to be otherwise? H: Some things make sense to me, others don’t. --------- Nina. #64256 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Object of the three cittas jonoabb Hi Han (and Nina) After reviewing the passage from CMA you say: "Thus, from the above quotes, it is clear that the cuticitta takes one of the Signs of the Time of Death (maranasanna nimittas) as its object during the last javana process." On my reading, the passage does not say that. What it says is that it's the *sense or mind-door process preceding the cuti citta* that takes the maranasanna nimittas as object. The cuti citta is not part of a process; like the other bhavangas it is vitthi vimutti (process freed). Does this help clarify things? Jon han tun wrote: > Han: > Here, I would like to quote pages 222-223 of A > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Mahathera Narada > and revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi. > > Quote: [To one who is on the verge of death: The last > cognitive process begins when the bhavanga is > interrupted, vibrates for one moment, and is then > arrested. Thereafter follows either a sense-door > process taking as object some sense object presenting > itself at one of the five sense doors, or a bare > mind-door process taking as object either some sense > object or a mental object presenting itself at the > mind door. Within this terminal process the javana > phase, by reason of its weakness, runs for only five > mind-moments rather than the usual seven. This process > lacks original productive kammic potency, but acts > rather as the channel for the past kamma that has > assumed the rebirth-generative function. Following the > javana stage two registration cittas (tadaarammana) > may or may not follow. In some cases the bhavanga may > follow the last process cittas. Then, as the very last > citta, the death consciousness arises performing the > function of passing away from the present life. With > the ceasing of the death consciousness, the life > faculty is cut off. Then the body remains a mass of > inanimate material phenomena born of temperature, and > continues as such until the corpse is reduced to dust. > > > Immediately after that has ceased: Following the > dissolution moment of the death consciousness, there > arises in a new existence the rebirth-linking > consciousness apprehending the object thus obtained in > the final javana process of the previous life. This > citta is supported by the heart-base in realms which > include matter, but is baseless in the immaterial > realms. It is generated by a volitional formation, > i.e. the kamma of the previous javana process, which > in turn is grounded in the twin roots of the round of > existence, latent ignorance and latent craving. The > rebirth consciousness is conjoined with its mental > adjuncts, i.e. the cetasikas, which it serves as a > forerunner not in the sense that it precedes them, but > in that it acts as their locus (or foundation).] End > Quote. > > ------------------------------ > > Han: > The important point from the above quote is that the > last javana process takes as object some sense object > presenting itself at one of the five sense doors, or > either some sense object or a mental object presenting > itself at the mind door. These sense object and mental > object are the Signs of the Time of Death (maranasanna > nimittas). These maranasanna nimittas are described in > the same book on page 221. These are (i) a kamma that > is to produce rebirth-linking in the next existence, > which according to circumstances confronts (the dying > person); or (ii) a sign of kamma, that is, a form, > etc., that had been apprehended previously at the time > of performing the kamma or something that was > instrumental in performing the kamma; or (iii) a sign > of destiny, that is, (a symbol of the state) to be > obtained and experienced in the immediately following > existence. > > Thus, from the above quotes, it is clear that the > cuticitta takes one of the Signs of the Time of Death > (maranasanna nimittas) as its object during the last > javana process. This maranasanna nimitta could not > have been experienced by the bhavanga cittas that had > been flowing in the person since the patisandhi citta. > That’s why I said the object taken by the patisandhi > citta of present life and bhavanga cittas of present > life is different from the object taken by the cuti > citta of the present life, which depends on the last > javana process that could not occur before-hand. > > ------------------------------ > > > #64257 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:33 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind - need a favor sarahprocter... Hi Charles, --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi all DSG, > > > > Does any one have the time and know how to generate a reference list of > all > the texts that describe or just talk about the 5 aggregates? ... S: In addition to all Larry's good references and Howard's comments, see Nyantiloka's dictionary: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/khandha.htm for a full explanation of the khandhas. Metta, Sarah ======== #64258 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alayavijnana and bhavanga-citta sarahprocter... Dear Plamen, --- Plamen Gradinarov wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > S: Bhavanga cittas are cittas - they don't 'link cittas', but arise > > between sense door and mind door processes. They are > not 'subliminal'. > > Anga is link, or limb. Bhava is existence, so bhavanga-citta is the > citta that serves as the connecting link between two "manifested" > cittas or caitasikas (capable of conscious apprehension). .... S: It is the vital link between processes of cittas and essential for the continuous flow of cittas as in deep sleep. However, let's be clear that bhavanga cittas ARE cittas and that all cittas (including these) are accompanied by a number of cetasikas. For those with great wisdom, the bhavanga cittas are also 'manifested', i.e their characteristic can be known when they appear as object in the mind door process. Their object, however, can never be known because it is only ever experienced by bhavanga cittas and this is outside the sense and mind door processes. .... > > > It's just that the object is never known and they don't arise > through > > sense or mind door-ways. > > Agreed, it is too subtle for that. And because of that it remains > under the treshold of the sevenfold consciousness, i.e., subliminal. .... S: There is no sevenfold consciousness that I know of nor anything subliminal. Simply, bhavanga cittas experience their object outside the vithi (processes) as I said. It's not a question of being suble or not. .... > > > S: Let's just say that the only dhamma apart from the 5 khandhas > (cittas, > > cetasikas and rupas) is nibbana. > > And akasa. .... S: If you are referring to pariccheda akaasa, this is a derived rupa and comes under rupa khandha. It is also classified as a dhatu (element). If you are referring to an-antaakaasa (endless space) as in the object of the first arupa jhana, then this is a concept. Do you have something else in mind? (see Nyantiloka's dictionary on 'akasa'). .... > > > It is not a citta of any kind. When it is > > experienced, it is done so by lokuttara (supramundane) cittas only. > > Like nirodha-samapatti. .... S: I don't think so. Nirodha samapatti refers to a temporary cessation of consciousness (no citta at all), a state only possible for those who have full mastery of all 8 jhanas and are either anagamis or arahants. (again, see lots of detail in Nyantiloka's dictrionary under this term and for both 'akasa' and 'nirodha samapatti', see also U.P.) ... > > > How are we doing? > > We are bridging gaps perfectly well. :-) > > Here is another bridge. Buddhism is Yoga, the yoga of turning > consciousness from its pravartana mode of existence to its > nivartana, from pravrtti to nivrtti which is nirvana. This > fundamental turn of consiousness is referred to in Yogacara as > asraya-paravrtti, reversal of the basis. ... S; I don't believe that any consciousness (citta) can be 'turned' into any other consciousness, let alone nibbana. All cittas are conditioned and fall away as soon as they have arisen. They can never be changed. Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma. Nothing can be turned or transformed into it. I did come across the terms pravrtti and nivrtti recently and I thought it was in a Theravada context - something interesting, but I can't think where now. Yes, let's keep bridging those gaps... Thanks Plamen, fun talking to you:-) Metta, Sarah ======== #64259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cuti-citta nilovg Dear Han and Kel, to me this is no problem. If there are some bhavangacittas after the maranaviithi, these just have the same object as all preceding, innumerable bhavangacittas of that life. Or if there are no bhavangacittas after the maranavithi, there is only the cuticitta, similar to all those bhavangacittas. Nina. Op 12-okt-2006, om 11:02 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But, Kel, "Bha" is not always there. Please see the > following: #64260 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 105, 106 and Tiika. pgradinarov > Brazier says: "The Buddha's ideology, therefore, was essential > constructive, moral > and ontologically nonhierarchical. DO provides a theory of how things > are interrelated." > N: All this is said in a complicated, rather speculative way. And wrong in the assessment of Buddha's critique of experience. Because his critique was essental deconstructive rather than essental constructive - the ultimate goal of Buddha's method is to destroy the mental constructions and provide means for avoiding the process of constructing new essences. "Ontologically nonhierarchical" is also begging the question because although formally all the 12 links are unprivilledged, still avidya is the mulapratyaya of samsara. Kindest regards, Plamen #64261 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cuticitta. jonoabb Hi Han (and Nina) han tun wrote: > Dear Nina, > > Nina: > It does not say that the cuti-citta takes that object > conditioned by kamma. We read this differently, I > think. It merely says that it is the last citta. > Do you have the Guide to conditional Relations by U > Narada? I found more texts. > ------------------------------ > Han: > Then, what object does the cuti citta take? > If the cuti citta does not take one of the maranasanna > nimittas as its object, how can maranasanna nimittas > affect the next rebirth? > As I understand it, the arising of the maranasanna nimittas in the last sense/mind-door process of the preceding life, and the patisandhi citta of the succeeding life, are both conditioned by the same kamma. There is no particular reason why the intervening cuti citta should take the same object. It is vipaka citta, and in particular is the vipaka of the kamma that conditioned the preceding life (how could it be vipaka of the kamma that conditions the succeeding life?!). > Cuti citta is immediately followed by patisandhi citta > of next life. > There is no opportunity for any object or citta to > come in between cuti citta and patisandhi citta. > Correct, there is no intervening mind-moment. But the 2 successive vipaka cittas take different objects because they are the vipaka of different kamma. Jon #64262 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] fear??? jonoabb Hi Larry (and Sarah) LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > S: "This is all good material, but weren't you discussing bhaya-~naa.na > (insight into the fearfulness or danger of all conditioned dhammas)?" > > L: No, that's the only place I could see fear discussed in an abhidhamma > context, but I was mostly just interested in fear, proximate cause, etc. > As I understand it, there is no specific 'fear' cetasika (it's a combination of different akusala mental factors of the dosa variety). Would this perhaps explain why there's no particular treatment of it in the texts? Jon #64263 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right On !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, --- Bhikkhu samahita wrote: > Sarah asked: > > > 1: The Body as an Accumulation... > > 2: The Feeling as a Sensation... > > 3: The Mind as a Mood... > > 4: The Phenomenon as a Mental State.. > > S: > >>1: Do you see these as referring to dhammas as objects of clear > comprehension (sati-sampajanna)? > A1: yes indeed > > >2:If so, what dhammas do you see them as referring to? > >2:Would you also mind clarifying what you mean above by the terms. > 1 is referring to all form as something heaped together. > 2 is referring to all feeling as something created by contact. > 3 is referring to all mentality as something conditioned by > circumstances. > 4 is referring to all phenomena as something partly created by mind. .... S: Would you agree that in the text you quoted (SN 47:35): 1) refers to kaayaanupassanaa - the awareness and understanding of the rupas making up the body 2) refers to vedaanupassanaa - the awareness and understanding of feelings 3) refers to cittaanupassanaa - the awareness and understanding of cittas (consciousness) 4) refers to dhammanupassana - the awareness and understanding of any dhammas (realities, not concepts) .... > > When seeing that one understands that they all must pass away > as they are emerged in dependence on something transient... ... S: Would you agree that the passing away refers only to paramattha dhammas, not to 'phenomena partly created by the mind'? ... > > When seeing that one looses gradually lust for these vanishing objects. > Why so? They cannot ever be kept and spontaneously decays & is lost... > This is what is means by: > "he thereby removes any urge, envy, jealousy, frustration & discontent" .... S: Would you agree that it is by the development of satipatthana alone - the development of the eightfold path that all such kilesa are eradicated without the involvement of any self at all? Metta, Sarah ====== #64264 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind sarahprocter... Hi Howard & Charles, --- upasaka@... wrote: C:> > I got confused by your statements, "It's not what I believe or > consider. > > There are the usual 5 aggregates. > In MN 9, the Buddha said "Feeling,> > > perception, volition, contact and attention - these are called > mentality." > > That is his definition of nama. And these namic elements may be > defiled or > > freed from defilement." > > Are you saying you do not believe the "5 aggregates" you listed? If I > am > > right, then what do you consider to be the best list? > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > My original primary point was that the aggregate of rupa should > be > excluded in the definition of "mind". In the list given in MN 9, there > are vedana > and sa~n~na explicity. I suppose that volition is representative of the > larger sankharakkhandha, and that phassa is standing in for vi~n~nana. .... S: As Jon & Nina have pointed out in other contexts, the cetasikas above are given as 'representative' of nama. They are all universal cetasikas (namas), arising with every citta. Phassa is included in sankhara khandha. Vinnana only refers to cittas. .... > In that > list, attention is being given attention, it seems! ;-) I don't know why > the > Buddha in that teaching broke nama down as he did. Perhaps the > commentaries have > some light to shed on that. It is exactly the sort of thing I would look > to the > commentaries for. :-) .... S: Attention is a translation of manasikara, a universal cetasika arising with every citta at every moment. Jon gave a commentary note recently to another similar passage, showing that just common, always-occurring cetasikas are given. We could add an 'etc' at the end. ... C:> > I must also admit that I have never seen "contact and attention" in > the list > > of aggregates, ... S: They are included in the 50 cetasikas in sankhara khandha. ... C:> > Would you consider replacing "Attention" with awareness? ... S: That might be misleading. Attention (manasikara) also arises with unwholesome cittas, with vipaka cittas (such as seeing and hearing) and with kiriya (inoperative) cittas, i.e with all cittas. Metta, Sarah ======== #64265 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind sarahprocter... Hi Howard & Charles, --- upasaka@... wrote: C:> > I got confused by your statements, "It's not what I believe or > consider. > > There are the usual 5 aggregates. > In MN 9, the Buddha said "Feeling,> > > perception, volition, contact and attention - these are called > mentality." > > That is his definition of nama. And these namic elements may be > defiled or > > freed from defilement." > > Are you saying you do not believe the "5 aggregates" you listed? If I > am > > right, then what do you consider to be the best list? > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > My original primary point was that the aggregate of rupa should > be > excluded in the definition of "mind". In the list given in MN 9, there > are vedana > and sa~n~na explicity. I suppose that volition is representative of the > larger sankharakkhandha, and that phassa is standing in for vi~n~nana. .... S: As Jon & Nina have pointed out in other contexts, the cetasikas above are given as 'representative' of nama. They are all universal cetasikas (namas), arising with every citta. Phassa is included in sankhara khandha. Vinnana only refers to cittas. .... > In that > list, attention is being given attention, it seems! ;-) I don't know why > the > Buddha in that teaching broke nama down as he did. Perhaps the > commentaries have > some light to shed on that. It is exactly the sort of thing I would look > to the > commentaries for. :-) .... S: Attention is a translation of manasikara, a universal cetasika arising with every citta at every moment. Jon gave a commentary note recently to another similar passage, showing that just common, always-occurring cetasikas are given. We could add an 'etc' at the end. ... C:> > I must also admit that I have never seen "contact and attention" in > the list > > of aggregates, ... S: They are included in the 50 cetasikas in sankhara khandha. ... C:> > Would you consider replacing "Attention" with awareness? ... S: That might be misleading. Attention (manasikara) also arises with unwholesome cittas, with vipaka cittas (such as seeing and hearing) and with kiriya (inoperative) cittas, i.e with all cittas. Metta, Sarah ======== #64266 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 105, 106 and Tiika. jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Plamen Gradinarov" wrote: Hallo Plamen That I don't know the term "mulapratyaya" is not so strange But even google rests silent So before I can react: what are you talking about? Joop > > > Brazier says: "The Buddha's ideology, therefore, was essential > > constructive, moral > > and ontologically nonhierarchical. DO provides a theory of how things > > are interrelated." > > N: All this is said in a complicated, rather speculative way. > > And wrong in the assessment of Buddha's critique of experience. > Because his critique was essental deconstructive rather than essental > constructive - the ultimate goal of Buddha's method is to destroy the > mental constructions and provide means for avoiding the process of > constructing new essences. > > "Ontologically nonhierarchical" is also begging the question because > although formally all the 12 links are unprivilledged, still avidya is > the mulapratyaya of samsara. > > Kindest regards, > Plamen > #64267 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cuticitta. hantun1 Dear Jon, > (1) Jon: As I understand it, the arising of the maranasanna nimittas in the last sense/mind-door process of the preceding life, and the patisandhi citta of the succeeding life, are both conditioned by the same kamma. > (2) Jon: Correct, there is no intervening mind-moment. But the 2 successive vipaka cittas take different objects because they are the vipaka of different kamma. ------------------------------ Han: If No. (1) is the case, it solves the problem. If No. (2) is the case, say, cuti citta of present life takes “A” as an object (like patisandhi citta of present life and bhavanga cittas of present life), the patisandhi citta of next life will then take “B” as an object. Object “A” taken by the cuti citta of present life is the result of the kamma of the last javan process of the past life. Object “B” taken by the patisandhi citta of next life is the result of the kamma of the last javana process of the present life. Is that correct? If so, then the problem is solved. Respectfully, Han --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > As I understand it, the arising of the maranasanna > nimittas in the last > sense/mind-door process of the preceding life, and > the patisandhi citta > of the succeeding life, are both conditioned by the > same kamma. > > > > > > Correct, there is no intervening mind-moment. But > the 2 successive > vipaka cittas take different objects because they > are the vipaka of > different kamma. > Jon > > > #64268 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:25 am Subject: Re: Alayavijnana and bhavanga-citta pgradinarov Dear Sarah, > For those with great wisdom, the > bhavanga cittas are also 'manifested', i.e their characteristic can be > known when they appear as object in the mind door process. Their object, > however, can never be known because it is only ever experienced by > bhavanga cittas and this is outside the sense and mind door So the can be the object of manas thus falling into the class of manovijnana, i.e., manifested citta, but still remaining noumenal, without confirmed object. Then, if even the wisest among humans cannot identify the object of bhavanga-cittas, how do we know that they are at all sarammana (salambana)? It turns out that even Buddha cannot tell the object of bhavanga-citta. Which is not acceptable. If the arhats in their yogaja-pratyaksa, which in fact is the state of nirvikalpa-samapatti, are able to ascertain the salambanatva of the bhavanga-cittas, they do so only because they discriminate the object of bhavanga-citta, i.e., they must know it. We are not going to tell the aspiring public that the omniscient Buddha didn't know the objects of bhavanga-citta. If he knew them, then they fall in the sphere of the knowable (jneyagocara); if even he didn't then it is safe to assume that bhavanga-cittas are objectless (niralambana). There is no middle way between these two options. > S: There is no sevenfold consciousness that I know of There is a sevenfold consciousness and it is widely known as vijnana- skandha (vinnana-kkhandha). > nor anything subliminal. > Simply, bhavanga cittas experience their object outside the > vithi (processes) as I said. So did I. If their object is not manifested, and we cannot tell what about are they, the bhavanga-cittas are subliminal. This is the meaning of the word subliminal in modern psychology. > It's not a question of being subtle or not. Then the only question is of being existent and non-existent. Existent object are gross (sthula) and subtle (suksma), non-existent objects are imaginary (parikalpita) or absent in a particular cognitive situation. Are you saying the objects of bhavanga-cittas are parikalpita, or that they are just incidentally absent? > If you are referring to an-antaakaasa (endless space) as in the object of > the first arupa jhana, then this is a concept. Got it. This gap cannot be possibly bridged. In Hinayana and Mahayana Abhidharma, there are three (or more) asankhata-dhammas, and these are akasa and the two nirodhas, representing the two aspects of nibbana - as cessation and as nonproliferation. > S; I don't believe that any consciousness (citta) can be 'turned' into any > other consciousness There are some who believe that mind can be turned from conditioned to unconditioned, like Ajahn Chah: "Asankhata dhamma, the unconditioned, refers to the mind which has seen the Dhamma, the truth, of the Five Khandhas as they are -- as Transient, Imperfect and Ownerless. All ideas of "me" and "them," "mine" and "theirs," belong to the determined reality. Really they are all conditions. When we know the truth of conditions, as neither ourselves nor belonging to us, we let go of conditions and the determined. When we let go of conditions we attain the Dhamma, we enter into and realize the Dhamma. When we attain the Dhamma we know clearly. What do we know? We know that there are only conditions and determinations, no being, no self, no "us" nor "them." This is knowledge of the way things are." http://www.zencomp.com/greatwisdom/ebud/livdhamma/livdham09.htm > Yes, let's keep bridging those gaps... This is a fascinating task, thank you for this discussion, Sarah! Kindest regards, Plamen #64269 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mulapratyaya pgradinarov Dear Joop, > "mulapratyaya" : what are you talking about? Is there any condition (pratyaya) that can be considered fundamental (mula) for the pravartana (activation) of the mechanism of dependent origination. The two most like candidates for this are Ignorance (avidya, P. avijja) and Desire (trsna, P. tanha). To answer this question we'd better ask ourselves the "retrocausal" question. By removal of which cause/condition will samsara cease ultimately? Kindest regards, Plamen #64271 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 105, 106 and Tiika. upasaka_howard Hi, Joop (and Nina) - In a message dated 10/12/06 3:27:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > >Hallo Joop, > ... > > Hallo Nina, all > > Nina: "The Tiika gives four possibilities: from a single cause arise > one > fruit, or arise many, or from multiple causes arises one fruit, or > from multiple causes there is multiple fruit. The Tiika states > that only the fourth possibility is correct." > > I responded to your quote with some doubts; you responded to it with: > Nina: "Everything conditions everything. That sounds rather vague. No > danger here. It is indicated very precisely by which conditioning > factors (of the twentyfour conditions as taught in the Patthana) > one link conditions the next link. That is why we went over all the > twentyfour conditions before arriving at this section." > > A longer quote to make my doubt more clear. > 'Doubt' namely that the Tiika changed the dependent origination from > the way Buddha explained it in the Suttas to a non-dual (cf advaita > vedanta) direction of interdependent co-arising > So I'm not sure that the Tiika is correct. > > "According the theory of dependent origination, things arise from > conditions. It is a theory of how one thing arises from another, or > from a group of others. The arising is sequential. One thing leads to > another. The purpose and merit of this theory was that; > - it provides a sense of purpose > - it provides a basis for ethics, since things have consequences > - it does anway with the need for either a god above or a > metaphysical substratum below > The Buddha's ideology, therefore, was essential constructive, moral > and ontologically nonhierarchical. DO provides a theory of how things > are interrelated. > … > In the Chinese version, the theory comes to be called 'interdependent > co-arising, a completely different theory… Co-arising is > nonsequential and not really causative > … > All the apparently separate things arise together [in this co-arising > theory] > … > Interdependent co-arising, leaves us rudderless. If we consider the > three virtues of the theory of DO, we see that interbeing undermines > them all. Interdependent co-arising has the following characteristics: > - It is essentially a steady state theory rather than a progressibve > one. If things progress it is not through our agencay. > - It does not, therefore, provide much foundation for ethics, since > all things, good and bad, are a consequence of all other things … > - It cries for a methaphysical basis - for some supramundane Unity or > metaphysical substratum from which all things arise. > … > This theory, therefore, is intrinsically conservative, whereas the > original theory of dependent origination was not. " (D. Brazier, The > new buddhism, p 102-106) > > Metta > > Joop =========================== I find myself in support of the tika in this case. Aside from the fact that "everything [directly or indirectly] conditions everything" makes sense to me, and aside from the fact that this seems to be the position of both Theravada and Mahayana, it seems to me to be a plausible way of understanding even the 12-link D.O. given in the suttas. As I interpret that, each link is a a requisite condition for the next. I don't see any implication that each link is the *sole* condition for the next, and it clearly is not (!), nor do I see any implication that each subsequent link is the sole result of the preceding link, and it clearly is not. The aim of this scheme, as I see it, is to point to a chain of critical (primary) conditionality explaining arising of suffering and continuation of the three poisons. As each link is requisite for the next, the very same scheme serves to indicate a primary path towards liberation. Another purpose of this scheme, as I see it, is to point to the impersonality and objectivity of the primary conditions leading towards suffering, enabling the viewing of the process as a natural and objective one, neither involving unchangeable fate nor the dictates of an authoritarian god. With metta, Howard #64272 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:47 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind - need a favor dacostacharles Larry & Nina Thanks for the Info. I will start the process of trying to track down the works you both have mentioned. I am home all day so I think this will be my new job. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LBIDD@... Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 01:55 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind - need a favor Hi Charles, "The 'Khandha Passages' in the Vinayapitaka and the Four Main Nikayas" by Tilmann Vetter, Verlag der Osterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Wien 2000 lists every mention of the 5 khandhas in the Nikayas and Vinaya. And beside Visuddhimagga "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma" translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi is very thorough and gives some commentarial references. For modern academic analysis I would recommend "The Five Aggregates: Understanding Theravada Psychology and Soteriology" by Mathieu Boisvert, Wilfred University Press, Canada and "Identity and Experience: The Constitution of the Human Being According to Early Buddhism" by Sue Hamilton, Luzac Oriental, 1996. I particularly like Tilman Vetter but his stuff is difficult to get in U.S. and not always available in english. You might also take a look at your local university library. Larry #64273 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:40 am Subject: RE: [dsg] What is Mind dacostacharles I should have added that the books on the Abidharma have always put me to sleep so I end up read the same thing 10 times to get a good paragraph out of the text. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles DaCosta Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 23:01 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] What is Mind Hi Plamen, Thanks, and you are right. To begin, I should go back to the "Intro's to the Abidharma." I guess I am running out of excuses so I will dig them up. <...> #64274 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:25 am Subject: RE: [dsg] How to explain kamma to a newcomer to Buddhism? ( was Re: Books on Dhamma dacostacharles Hi Phil, I realize now that what I said may not be enough for you so I will go to what I call the next stage (i.e., after understanding cause-&-effect). In the Buddhist view, Karma is not really reward and punishment; it is the results of events. Karma is more about how you deal with experiences (the Buddhist view), not the actual experiences (the Hindu view). The following are examples: 1) The Buddha was poisoned to death: a) Hindus would say the Buddha must have done something terrible in a past life; this is the result of that "bad-karma." The Buddha was being punished. b) The Buddha would say "No, things just happen." The sutras present the Buddha as not suffering, therefore this is the result of "good-karma," i.e., in the past the Buddha must have mastered dealing with what can be perceived as "unpleasant", and still could in the present. 2) Jesus was crucified to death: a) Hindus would say, he had to have done something really, really terrible in a past life; the crucifixion is the result of "extremely bad-karma." Jesus was being punished. b) The Buddha would say "No, things just happen." The bible presented Jesus as troubled at first but then accepting "a fate" (he had a choice) as his destiny, and seeking forgiveness for those that acted immorally towards him (i.e., Jesus is still full of compassion, a Buddhist virtue). This must be the result of "good-karma," i.e., in the past he must have mastered dealing with what can be perceived as "bad experiences", and still could in the present. In a nut shell - Karma is more about how you deal with experiences, not the actual experiences. So when she says, "What did I do to deserve this?" You should say, "Not learned how to deal with it!!!!" Tell your friend that the real punishment is caused by ignorance, self-centeredness, and mental weakness. So LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH the bad and unpleasant. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles DaCosta Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 22:40 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] How to explain kamma to a newcomer to Buddhism? ( was Re: Books on Dhamma Hi Phil, Kamma is a confusing subject, especially when you mix in the Hindu/Brahmin view (I am getting what I deserve - my bad karma). I always start explaining karma as just another name for cause-&-effect, and leave out the view that it is punishment. Charles DaCosta yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:27 To: dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] How to explain kamma to a newcomer to Buddhism? ( was Re: Books on Dhamma Hi again all (ps to Jon) I'll just add that one problem I have when talking about Dhamma with Naomi is that it always becomes about kamma - do these bad things happen to me because of kamma, what did I do to deserve to have such a terrible childhood, is the bad way people treat me at work because I did a bad thing in another life? It's always about kamma, kamma, kamma, this life, past lives. It's so hard to get her to appreciate that it is the moment that counts, that trying to work out the way kamma works is just a maddening imponderable. <...> #64275 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:55 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind - need a favor dacostacharles Thanks Sarah, This is an excellent starting point (small chunks). Reading and research are two of my weakness. Charles DaCosta <...> S: In addition to all Larry's good references and Howard's comments, see Nyantiloka's dictionary: http://www.palikano n.com/english/wtb/g_m/khandha.htm for a full explanation of the khandhas. <...> #64276 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:40 am Subject: Re: French translation of Abhidhamma in daily life, 1st chapter pgradinarov Louis de La Vallée Poussin could not have translated it better! :-) Good job! P. #64277 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cuticitta. jonoabb Hi Han han tun wrote: > Dear Jon, > >> (1) Jon: As I understand it, the arising of the >> maranasanna nimittas in the last sense/mind-door >> process of the preceding life, and the patisandhi >> citta of the succeeding life, are both conditioned by >> the same kamma. >> >> (2) Jon: Correct, there is no intervening >> mind-moment. But the 2 successive vipaka cittas take >> different objects because they are the vipaka of >> different kamma. >> > ------------------------------ > > Han: If No. (1) is the case, it solves the problem. > I think this is what is said or at least indicated by the CMA passage you quoted (and which I have copied below): "This [final javana] process lacks original productive kammic potency, but acts rather as the channel for the past kamma that has assumed the rebirth-generative function. ... Following the dissolution moment of the death consciousness, there arises in a new existence the rebirth-linking consciousness apprehending the object thus obtained in the final javana process of the previous life." > If No. (2) is the case, say, cuti citta of present > life takes “A” as an object (like patisandhi citta of > present life and bhavanga cittas of present life), the > patisandhi citta of next life will then take “B” as an > object. > > Object “A” taken by the cuti citta of present life is > the result of the kamma of the last javan process of > the past life. > Object “B” taken by the patisandhi citta of next life > is the result of the kamma of the last javana process > of the present life. > > Is that correct? If so, then the problem is solved. > Yes, this is the general idea. I would put it as follows: Object “A” taken by the cuti citta [and the patisandhi citta and bhavanga cittas] of present life is the same object as the object of the last javana process of the past life. The kamma of which that cuti citta [and the patisandhi citta and bhavanga cittas] is vipaka is the same kamma as conditions the object of those javana cittas. Object “B” taken by the patisandhi citta [and bhavanga cittas and cuti citta] of next life is the same object as the object of the last javana process of the present life. The kamma of which that patisandhi citta [and bhavanga cittas and cuti citta] is the vipaka is the same kamma as conditions object of those javana cittas. Jon ************************************* Han's quote from pages 222-223 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Mahathera Narada and revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Quote: [To one who is on the verge of death: The last cognitive process begins when the bhavanga is interrupted, vibrates for one moment, and is then arrested. Thereafter follows either a sense-door process taking as object some sense object presenting itself at one of the five sense doors, or a bare mind-door process taking as object either some sense object or a mental object presenting itself at the mind door. Within this terminal process the javana phase, by reason of its weakness, runs for only five mind-moments rather than the usual seven. This process lacks original productive kammic potency, but acts rather as the channel for the past kamma that has assumed the rebirth-generative function. Following the javana stage two registration cittas (tadaarammana) may or may not follow. In some cases the bhavanga may follow the last process cittas. Then, as the very last citta, the death consciousness arises performing the function of passing away from the present life. With the ceasing of the death consciousness, the life faculty is cut off. Then the body remains a mass of inanimate material phenomena born of temperature, and continues as such until the corpse is reduced to dust. Immediately after that has ceased: Following the dissolution moment of the death consciousness, there arises in a new existence the rebirth-linking consciousness apprehending the object thus obtained in the final javana process of the previous life. This citta is supported by the heart-base in realms which include matter, but is baseless in the immaterial realms. It is generated by a volitional formation, i.e. the kamma of the previous javana process, which in turn is grounded in the twin roots of the round of existence, latent ignorance and latent craving. The rebirth consciousness is conjoined with its mental adjuncts, i.e. the cetasikas, which it serves as a forerunner not in the sense that it precedes them, but in that it acts as their locus (or foundation).] End Quote. #64278 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:50 am Subject: french translation of ADL nilovg Dear Sebastien, thank you very much. I keep it and will study it later on. Nina. #64279 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:25 am Subject: How to explain kamma to a newcomer to Buddhism? ( was Re: Books on Dhamma philofillet Hi Charles I appreciate the feedback. Not that it's not enough - just haven't had time to get to it -probably won't until Saturday. Catch you in a couple of days. Phil > I realize now that what I said may not be enough for you so I will go to > what I call the next stage (i.e., after understanding cause-&-effect). #64280 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is Mind, Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Charles D, I have heard this before. I would like to help if this is so. Perhaps you could indicate where you start to sleep? We can apply the texts to our daily life, and this is the purpose of the Abhidhamma. If we forget the purpose we tend to have a wrong idea about Abhidhamma. Would you like to start with the list of the Dhammasangani, the first book of the Abhidhamma? It is best to look at the texts themselves. Nina. Op 12-okt-2006, om 11:40 heeft Charles DaCosta het volgende geschreven: > I should have added that the books on the Abidharma have always put > me to > sleep so I end up read the same thing 10 times to get a good > paragraph out > of the text. #64281 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:33 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 73. nilovg Dear friends, The Bodhisatta looked with perfect composure and with wisdom at the beautiful women. While he was motionless during his trials and tests he was not idle, he was mindful. In order to attain Buddhahood he had to develop satipatthana with perseverance. He was mindful of realities, no matter in what situation. Although this is not mentioned in the Jatakas all the time, it is implied. Finally the King was adviced to bury him alive. When the charioteer was digging the hole for his grave, Temiya was adorned by Sakka with heavenly ornaments. He then told the charioteer that he was not cripple, deaf and dumb. He became an ascetic and preached to his parents about impermanence: 'It is death who smites this world, old age who watches at our gate, And it is the nights which pass and win their purpose soon or late. As when the lady at her loom sits weaving all the day, Her task grows ever less and less- so waste our lives away. As speeds the hurrying river's course on, with no backward flow, So in its course the life of men does ever forward go; And as the river sweeps away trees from its banks uptorn, So are we men carried along by age and death in headlong ruin.' He explained to his father that he did not want the kingdom, stating that wealth, youth, wife and children and all other joys do not last. He said: 'Do what you have to do today, Who can ensure the morrow's sun? Death is the Master-general Who gives his guarantee to none.' These words can remind us not to put off our task of developing right understanding of any reality which appears. ****** Nina. #64282 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:27 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 92 nilovg Dear friends, What is the mind-door? It is different from the sense-doors. A ``doorway'' is the means through which citta experiences an object. The sense-doors are the following rúpas: eyesense, earsense, smellingsense, tastingsense and bodysense. Bodysense is all over the body. These rúpas are the means through which a sense object is experienced. The mind-door is not one of these rúpas. In order to understand what the mind-door is we should consider what the first citta of the mind-door process is. This citta which performs the function of adverting to the object is the mano-dvåråvajjana-citta, the mind-door-adverting-consciousness. It does not advert to the object through one of the five senses but through the mind-door. The mind-door must be nåma, it is a citta. The citta which precedes the mano-dvåråvajjana-citta is the mind-door, it is the means through which the cittas of the mind-door process, beginning with the mano- dvåråvajjana-citta, receive the object. The citta which precedes the mano-dvåråvajjana-citta is the bhavangupaccheda and this citta is the mind-door. It is the mind-door through which the mano-dvåråvajjana- citta adverts to the object and it is also the doorway for the succeeding cittas of that process. The study of the different sense-door processes and mind-door processes which take their course according to conditions will help us to see realities as elements which are devoid of self, beyond control. We may, for example, be infatuated with a beautiful sound we hear. What we take for a long time of hearing are many different moments of citta which do not last. Even when we do not know yet the origin of the sound, what kind of sound it is, sound has already been experienced through the mind-door since cittas succeed one another extremely rapidly, arising and falling away. Sound does not stay either, it falls away. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, chapter V, §205, The Lute) that the Buddha said to the monks: ...Suppose, monks, the sound of a lute has never been heard by a råjah or royal minister. Then he hears the sound of a lute and says: ``Good men, pray, what is that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind?'' Then they say to him: ``That, lord, is the sound of what is called a lute, that sound so entrancing, so delightful, so intoxicating, so ravishing, of such power to bind.'' Then he says: ``Go, my men. Fetch me that lute.'' So they fetch him that lute and say to him: ``This, lord, is that lute, the sound of which is so entrancing... of such power to bind.'' Then he says: ``Enough of this lute, my men. Fetch me that sound.'' They say to him: ``This lute so called, lord, consists of divers parts, a great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers parts, to wit, owing to the belly, owing to the parchment, the handle, the frame, the strings, owing to the bridge and proper effort of a player. Thus, lord, this lute, so called, consists of divers parts, of a great number of parts. It speaks because it is compounded of divers parts.'' Then that råjah breaks up that lute into ten or a hundred pieces. Having done so, he splinters and splinters it again. Having done so, he burns it in fire, then makes it a heap of ashes and winnows the heap of ashes in a strong wind or lets them be borne down by the swift stream of a river. Then he says: ``A poor thing is what you call a lute, my men, whatever a lute may be. Herein the world is exceeding careless and led astray.'' Even so, monks, a monk investigating body as far as there is scope for body, investigating feeling, perception, the activities (saòkhårakkhandha), investigating consciousness, so far as there is scope for consciousness--in all of these investigations, whatever there be of ``I'' or ``I am'' or ``Mine'', there is none of that for him. ****** Nina #64284 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 105, 106 and Tiika. jwromeijn Whithout a typo Hallo Nina, Plamen, Howard, all Nina, you - and in fact Plamen and Howard too - only comment the first part of my quote, the description of dependent origination, that is not a perfect description. But you neglect the second part, the description of interdependent co- arising, a non-dualistic Taoistic interpretation of DO. What I was asking was if the interpretation of the Tiika wasn't a little bit too far from DO as described in several Suttas, and a little too close to interdependent co-arising. I think it is too close. Of course, Howard, it's not about that "each link is the *sole* condition for the next". As I said earlier this week: If A conditions B and B conditions C, then A conditions (in a indirect way) C. But not every of the 12 items of DO condition every other 11 ones, that will give 11 times 11 =121 conditions and is a wrong interpretation and too much: 11 conditions is enough. N: More than a theory. Abhidhamma is not theory at all. It is to be applied in life, but you also find this, don't you? J: Yes, but the term "theory" doesn't have any negative meaning for me, it is not worse than the socalled "practical". To me we can only have theories about reality, reality itself is unknowable. Some theories are silly (for example that the planet Earth is a pancake); some are very good (for example Abhidhamma, the Big Bang theory) Brazier says: N: "All this [the Brazier-quote] is said in a complicated, rather speculative way. It is not direct, straight to the point, such as the Visuddhimagga and Tiika." J: Nina, don't you think it's possible that you perceive this text as complicated because you are not used to this way of reasoning? To me for example the Visuddhimagga is complicated and rather speculative All I wanted to say, and I really hope Nina responds in a non- defensing way to it, is: take care in the interpretation of the Tiika that the only right answer is: "from multiple causes there is multiple fruit": it does not mean everything conditions everything The Buddha said "When there is this, that is - With the arising of this, that arises. …" He did NOT say, Tiika-like "When there is this, that is or that or that …" As a closing remark: thank you Plamen for your explanation Now I understand what you mean, but I don't agree hundred procent with it: P : "Is there any condition that can be considered fundamental for the activation of the mechanism of dependent origination." J: I don't think one condition (any) is more fundamental than others, does the Buddha talk about "mula" when he described DO in the Suttas? But you are right when you mean that "Ignorance" has a special place in the sequence of DO: it is the A that conditions B that conditions C …that conditions K that conditions L (aging and death). Metta Joop #64285 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi again, Ken - In a message dated 10/11/06 10:27:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > I agree that at any given time there is but one mindstate - there is > awareness of one object, and there are specific mental activities occurring > with respect to that object. But there were prior, different states, and > there > will be yet other ones. How do you picture this? Do you see a slot, with new > > cittas appearing in it as "time passes by"? Or is there just one time? Don't > you > find an incredible unreality to every one of these schemes? I sure do! I > don't > really believe ANY of these pictures. It is all a grand illusion! Everything > > changes. And there is nothing that changes at all! Time is illusion, and yet > > it rolls on! Ken, there is no sense to be made of this. We must let it all > go. > It is all emptiness, and that emptiness itself is empty. All smoke and > mirrors, Ken. It seems to me that we need to look, and look, and look - only > to see > that whatever we think "it" is, it really isn't. And that's just fine! (So > long > as we just let it all go!) > ========================= Ken, a little more: If there is only "now", then how is there change? How is there cessation and arising? Right now there is what there is. "When" does that change if there is only "now"? All this conceptualization just falls apart when pursued relentlessly. Is time said to be concept-only? Mere pa~n~natti? If so, then so is "now" mere pa~n~natti, for "now" depends on "time". And yet it is true that nothing conditioned remains. It is also true that nothing is self. And it is true that nothing conditioned is a source of satisfaction. Most ultimate truths are denials, and even they are no substitute for a direct seeing that "sees through". Looking and seeing is never successful unless it is a looking and seeing *through* - seeing through illusion. And what is found beyond illusion is inexpressible except by denial. As I see it, the perfection of wisdom amounts to understanding "no". We must stop "thinking about", and start "looking". Even our negative assertions miss the target. The Zen folks are right when they say "Look! Look!". With metta, Howard #64286 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to explain kamma to a newcomer to Buddhism? The starkids. nilovg > Dear Phil (and James), Years ago James wrote a series of letters to the starkids, some of his pupils, and explained in a clear, understandable way the principles of the teachings, for beginners. I have no skills to retrieve old posts, but James or Sarah may. Then you could repost here what you use, it is good for everybody. I would like to read them again. Nina. #64287 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Time. nilovg Hi Howard, In Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 189 and 190, we had studies about time and moment. I would like to quote from it, but perhaps it is somewhat long. It may be of interest, but you need not answer. Of the khandhas it is said that they are past, present ,future. Op 12-okt-2006, om 17:25 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "Look! > Look!". ----------- N: We read in the ‘Expositor” (p. 78):