#69400 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 9:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) hantun1 Dear Christine and others, Christine: It was also such a relief to me to read Maurice Walshe's remarks (trans. of the Dighan Nikaya) in this excerpt from "Giving from the Heart": Han: “Giving from the Heart” is one of the 5 essays compiled by Bhikkhu Bodhi in this document. We will be reading it as we proceed. Respectfully, Han #69401 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 9:27 pm Subject: Daana Corner (15) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla. Susan wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: * The Factor of Volition * The Recipient of Gifts * The Objects to be Given * The Perfection of Giving * The Ultimate Goal of Giving The following is *The Ultimate Goal of Giving* Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The Ultimate Goal of Giving The goal of the Buddhist path is emancipation from the suffering of repeated existence in samsara. The Buddha taught that uprooting ignorance and the mental defilements it nurtures will bring us to Nibbana, the utter cessation of suffering. Unwholesome mental tendencies make us cling to what we mistakenly take to be our "selves," they keep us struggling to satisfy our insatiable sense desires with objects that are inherently transitory and thus unsatisfying. The Buddha said that the practice of giving will aid us in our efforts to purify the mind. Generous gifts accompanied by wholesome volition help to eradicate suffering in three ways. First, when we decide to give something of our own to someone else, we simultaneously reduce our attachment to the object; to make a habit of giving can thus gradually weaken the mental factor of craving, one of the main causes of unhappiness. Second, giving accompanied by wholesome volition will lead to happy future births in circumstances favorable to encountering and practicing the pure Buddha Dhamma. Third, and most important, when giving is practiced with the intention that the mind becomes pliant enough for the attainment of Nibbana, the act of generosity will help us develop virtue, concentration and wisdom (sila, samadhi, pañña) right in the present. These three stages make up the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path, and perfecting the path leads to the extinction of suffering. If we give in the hope of winning luxury in future lives, we may attain our aim providing that we adhere to the principles of virtuous conduct. According to the Buddha, however, the motivation of working for liberation is far superior to that of aiming at mundane happiness in future births. This is because a gift made with the desire for pleasure is accompanied in part by the unwholesome psychological root craving (tanha). The merits earned by such gifts are exhausted in transient pleasure, and such mundane happiness keeps us revolving in the round of rebirth, which in the deepest sense is always dukkha, subject to suffering. Giving associated with craving cannot contribute to the one form of happiness that does not perish, release from the round, which comes only with the full elimination of craving. Gifts untainted by craving and attachment can only be made during a Buddha Sasana, the period when the teachings of a Buddha are available. So when we give now, during such a time, we should do so with the aim of putting an end to craving. With the end of craving, suffering ceases, and that is liberation. May the merits of this gift of the Dhamma be shared by all beings! ------------------------------ This is the end of “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla. “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva will start from next post. Han #69402 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 9:26 pm Subject: The Five Basics! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 5 Basic Rules Guiding Behaviour? The Blessed Buddha once said to Anathapindika : Whoever, householder, has not overcome five terrible evils, such one is without morality, is without control, and will be reborn in hell. And what are those five terrible evils? They are killing, stealing, sexual abuse, lying, and taking intoxicants. But whoever has overcome these five terrible evils, such one is pure, well controlled and will be reborn in a happy world. One who is doing these 5 things, creates both present and future extreme misery, and will thus experience much mental pain & regret! One who abstains from these 5 things produces neither present nor future terrible misery, nor will he experience mental pain or grief. Such terrible evil is thus eliminated by him and extinguished in him... Whoever murders living beings, Speaks words that are not true, Takes what does not belong to him, Seduces wives of other men, And drinks intoxicating drinks, To which he ever strongly clings: A man who does not shun these evils, Has no morality indeed; And when his body once dissolves, That fool will fall to deepest hell... Who does no harm to anyone, Who never utters any lie, Who never takes what is not his, Nor seduces his neighbour's wife, Nor ever wishes in all his life To drink intoxicating drinks: A man who shuns these five evils Is rightly called a virtuous man; And when his body once dissolves, This wise man rises heavenward. Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 5:174 More on this Mighty Morality: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Good.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Prime_Benefits.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Truth_Triumphs.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Happy_Habbit.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Best_Protection.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Mighty_is_Morality.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Action.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Best_Buddhist_Praxis.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Speech.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/ay/anaathapindika.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/What_is_Sensual_and_Sexual_Misbehaviour.htm The Five Basics! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69403 From: Ren Bin Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 9:39 pm Subject: Theravada groups in Germany inner_silence Dear all, Does anyone in the group know of any English speaking Theravada groups in the German city of Halle, near Leipzig ? Would appreciate it very much if someone could provide me with some contacts. Thanks, Renbin #69404 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 11:06 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (14) corvus121 Hello Christine, Herman, Han & all When looking at Jataka commentary stories like this one, I wish I were a well-versed Indologist so that I could get the full contemporary context. Giving away children has a long history in European culture too. The Germanics in northern Europe often gave away children to people they wanted to cement a relationship with. "Take my son and raise him as your own" transactions were considered honourable for both giver and recipient. In terms of conventional morality, it's not hard to think of circumstances in which such a donor (perhaps due to poverty or other circumstance) might be wanting the best for child and recipient when making such a gift. Would *that* be ethical conduct, I wonder? Or is it inherently unethical to give away a child? I think it is pretty clear that in Dhamma terms giving a away a child is not inherently akusala (but in practice usually would be). In terms of looking for a Dhamma message beyond that in this Jataka story, I'm not sure I get it, although I suspect it can be found in this remark: "Neither child was disagreeable to > me, the Lady Maddi was not disagreeable. Omniscience > was dear to me, therefore I gave away those who were > dear" (I, 9). The reference to omniscience (which I take as a reference to a perfect Buddha) suggests to me that the true significance of the story will be difficult for a worldling to grasp. I agree totally with Christine when she says using these stories can be unwise for that reason. Just some thoughts ... no need to respond. Best wishes Andrew #69405 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Mar 9, 2007 11:43 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (14) matheesha333 AN 7.49 Dana Sutta Giving Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A iv 59 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Campa, on the shore of Gaggara Lake. Then a large number of lay followers from Campa went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there they said to Ven. Sariputta: "It has been a long time, venerable sir, since we have had a chance to hear a Dhamma talk in the Blessed One's presence. It would be good if we could get to hear a Dhamma talk in the Blessed One's presence." "Then in that case, my friends, come again on the next Uposatha day, and perhaps you'll get to hear a Dhamma talk in the Blessed One's presence." "As you say, venerable sir," the lay followers from Campa said to Ven. Sariputta. Rising from their seats, bowing down to him, and then circling him — keeping him on their right — they left. Then, on the following Uposatha day, the lay followers from Campa went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, stood to one side. Then Ven. Sariputta, together with the lay followers from Campa, went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "Might there be the case where a person gives a gift of a certain sort and it does not bear great fruit or great benefit, whereas another person gives a gift of the same sort and it bears great fruit and great benefit?" "Yes, Sariputta, there would be the case where a person gives a gift of a certain sort and it does not bear great fruit or great benefit, whereas another person gives a gift of the same sort and it bears great fruit and great benefit." "Lord, what is the cause, what is the reason, why a person gives a gift of a certain sort and it does not bear great fruit or great benefit, whereas another person gives a gift of the same sort and it bears great fruit and great benefit?" "Sariputta, there is the case where a person gives a gift seeking his own profit, with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a priest or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?" "Yes, lord." "Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world. "Then there is the case of a person who gives a gift not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached [to the reward], not seeking to store up for himself, nor [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death.' Instead, he gives a gift with the thought, 'Giving is good.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a priest or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?" "Yes, lord." "Having given this gift with the thought, 'Giving is good,' on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Thirty-three. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world. "Or, instead of thinking, 'Giving is good,' he gives a gift with the thought, 'This was given in the past, done in the past, by my father & grandfather. It would not be right for me to let this old family custom be discontinued'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Hours. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world. "Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'I am well-off. These are not well-off. It would not be right for me, being well-off, not to give a gift to those who are not well-off'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Contented Devas. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world. "Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'Just as there were the great sacrifices of the sages of the past — Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa, & Bhagu — in the same way will this be my distribution of gifts'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas who delight in creation. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world. "Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas who have power over the creations of others. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world. "Or, instead of thinking, 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise,' he gives a gift with the thought, 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a priest or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?" "Yes, lord." "Having given this, not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached [to the reward], not seeking to store up for himself, nor [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death,' " — nor with the thought, 'Giving is good,' " — nor with the thought, 'This was given in the past, done in the past, by my father & grandfather. It would not be right for me to let this old family custom be discontinued,' " — nor with the thought, 'I am well-off. These are not well-off. It would not be right for me, being well-off, not to give a gift to those who are not well-off,' nor with the thought, 'Just as there were the great sacrifices of the sages of the past — Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa, & Bhagu — in the same way this will be my distribution of gifts,' " — nor with the thought, 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise,' " — but with the thought, 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of Brahma's Retinue. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a non- returner. He does not come back to this world. "This, Sariputta, is the cause, this is the reason, why a person gives a gift of a certain sort and it does not bear great fruit or great benefit, whereas another person gives a gift of the same sort and it bears great fruit and great benefit." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- See also: AN 5.148. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Revised: Sunday 2006-06-18 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.049.than.html #69406 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (14) hantun1 Dear Matheesha, Thank you so much for sharing with us AN 7.49 Dana Sutta, where the Buddha describes some of the motivations one might have for being generous, and the karmic fruits of giving depending heavily on one's motives. Based on this sutta, I would like to conclude that the best motives for giving are as follows: "Giving without seeking his own profit, without mind attached (to the reward), without seeking to store up for himself (without the thought of enjoying this after death), but giving with the thought, 'this is an ornament for the mind (citta-lankaara), a support for the mind (citta-parikkhaara)'" Am I correct? Respectfully, Han --- matheesha wrote: > > > AN 7.49 > Dana Sutta > Giving > Translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A iv 59 > #69407 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:28 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (42) nichiconn Dear Friends, I forgot to add Mrs. Rhys Davids translation of Therii Nanduttaraa's verses to compare with Mr. Pruitt's, so here, with a final footnote for those who like to note what might be discrepancies, is the story from http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html XLII -- Nanduttaraa. She, too, faring in the past as the aforementioned Sisters, was, in this Buddha-age, born in the kingdom of the Kurus at the town of Kammaasadamma, *208 in a brahmin family. And when she had learnt from some of them their arts and sciences, she entered the Order of the Niga.n.thas, *209 and, as a renowned speaker, took her rose-apple bough, like Bhaddaa Curlyhair, *210 and toured about the plain of India. Thus she met Mahaa-Moggallaana the Elder, and in debate suffered defeat. She thereupon listened to his advice, entered the Order, and not long after attained Arahantship, together with thorough grasp of the letter and meaning of the Norm. And meditating on her victory, she exulted thus: Fire and the moon, the sun and eke the gods I once was wont to worship and adore, Foregathering on the river-banks to go Down in the waters for the bathing rites. (87) Ay, manifold observances I laid Upon me, for I shaved one-half my head, Nor laid me down to rest save on the earth, Nor ever broke my fast at close of day. (88) I sought delight in decking out myself With gems and ornaments and tricks of art. By baths, unguents, massage, I ministered Unto this body, spurred by lusts of sense. (89) Then found I faith, and forth from home I went into the homeless life, for I Had seen the body as it really is, And nevermore could lusts of sense return. (90) All the long line of lives was snapt in twain, Ay, every wish and yearning for it gone. All that had tied me hand and foot was loosed, Peace had I won, peace throne'd in my heart. (91) ***** *208 On this interesting place, see J.P.T.S., 1909, art. by Dr. Watanabe. *209 Lit., the Unbound or Free Brethren - i.e., the Jains. *210 See Ps. xlvi. The autobiographical evolution hinted at in verse 89 of the Psalm fits ill with the career sketched in the Commentarial tradition. === peace, connie #69408 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:56 am Subject: Re: Theravada groups in Germany moellerdieter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ren Bin wrote: > > Dear all, > > Does anyone in the group know of any English speaking Theravada groups in the German city of Halle, near Leipzig ? Would appreciate it very much if someone could provide me with some contacts. > > Thanks, > Renbin > Hi Renbin, it is very unlikely that you will find such a group in the region, not sure even in the country. But it may be worthwhile to get in touch with the German Buddhist Union ( http://www.dharma.de/dbu/frameset.php ) with greetings from Hamburg Dieter #69409 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (14) matheesha333 Hi Han, > "Giving without seeking his own profit, without mind > attached (to the reward), without seeking to store up > for himself (without the thought of enjoying this > after death), but giving with the thought, 'this is an > ornament for the mind (citta-lankaara), a support for > the mind (citta-parikkhaara)'" > You are indeed correct. Also an important part of that sutta was that when giving is done in this manner, the person is reborn as a non- returner destined for enlightenment, after falling away from the brahma worlds. So it is a very powerful form of practice. with metta Matheesha #69410 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (14) hantun1 Dear Matheesha (and all), When I studied AN 7.49, the translator, Thanissaro Bhikkhu, suggested we also read AN 5.148. So I read the following link. AN 5.148 Sappurisadana Sutta: A Person of Integrity's Gifts Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.148.than.html In this sutta, five ways of giving by a person of integrity (sappurisa) are described: (1) "Having given a gift with a sense of conviction, he — wherever the result of that gift ripens — is rich, with much wealth, with many possessions. And he is well-built, handsome, extremely inspiring, endowed with a lotus-like complexion. (2) "Having given a gift attentively, he — wherever the result of that gift ripens — is rich, with much wealth, with many possessions. And his children, wives, slaves, servants, and workers listen carefully to him, lend him their ears, and serve him with understanding hearts. (3) "Having given a gift in season, he — wherever the result of that gift ripens — is rich, with much wealth, with many possessions. And his goals are fulfilled in season. (4) "Having given a gift with an empathetic heart, he — wherever the result of that gift ripens — is rich, with much wealth, with many possessions. And his mind inclines to the enjoyment of the five strings of lavish sensuality. (5) "Having given a gift without adversely affecting himself or others, he — wherever the result of that gift ripens — is rich, with much wealth, with many possessions. And not from anywhere does destruction come to his property — whether from fire, from water, from kings, from thieves, or from hateful heirs. ------------------------------ Han: I would like to draw the kind attention of the readers to the fifth way, viz., giving a gift without adversely affecting himself or OTHERS. Respectfully, Han --- matheesha wrote: > > > AN 7.49 > Dana Sutta > Giving > Translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A iv 59 > #69411 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:53 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner (14) nichiconn Dear Herman, H: Cold comfort to be told by kamma experts that I had it coming to me :-) C: Some, perhaps, in being able to explain to somehow how the stories are but like (bad) dreams. But I don't think a kamma expert would say someone had this or that coming to them / deserved whatever. They would be more likely, I think, to talk about contacts, feelings, wise attention, etc. -- getting out of the story modes and into, pardon the expression, what's real. peace, connie. #69412 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:07 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (14) scottduncan2 Dear connie and Herman, Heavy stuff: H: "Cold comfort to be told by kamma experts that I had it coming to me :-)" C: "Some, perhaps, in being able to explain to somehow how the stories are but like (bad) dreams. But I don't think a kamma expert would say someone had this or that coming to them / deserved whatever. They would be more likely, I think, to talk about contacts, feelings, wise attention, etc. -- getting out of the story modes and into, pardon the expression, what's real." Having been a five year old once, and having met with a 'trawler' in the form of an uncle with unsavoury predilections, and thinking about the five year old, I sure wouldn't say I had it coming to me. But this is qualifiable, I think. Considering kamma and kamma result, one could say the pain was, technically, kamma-result... Merely thinking in terms of kamma result, though, wouldn't have alleviated any of the 'damage' to the boy and the man he grew into either, without the right conditions. No matter how true it might be. The 'damage' was all about being lost in samsaara. Now for me though, for certain, calm follows upon knowing that this 'bad dream' in which a boy met with a particularily perverse yakkha - and all the terror and pain of the moment - was merely the fruition of past kamma. I guess this is due to conditions as well. And no point considering the yakkha - the act is accumulated in his own 'stream'. I'll mind my own business and enjoy that there can be kindness to children I know! That was then, this is now, as you imply, connie. Sincerely, Scott #69413 From: "colette" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) ksheri3 Hi James, Hmmmmm, quite a predickament you've wandered into. Kindo makes ya wonder that "just maybe it is a mine field" and I better watch where it is I step. > > As a courtesy, I am telling you that if you intend to post anything > > that gives a stamp of approval to the trading of children in a > > spiritual quest, I will hold make you accountable for those > > statements. > colette: I have worked in the "Sex-For-Sale" industry and am very intement with it's operations. Way back in the early 1970s I was in 6th grade and went to my first group sex thing, I guess something of an orgy, but we were young and it was the Washington D.C. suburbs, and love was everywhere. It also happens that I was/am a West Pack Sailor, my first duty station was on Coronado island, making me a West Pack Sailor and I cannot tell you about the amount of sex-for- sale you will find in many ports of call. One may say an international language, no? I also know of the operations of Publishing adult entertainment. I cannot tell you how it boils my blood to find people deliberately and intentionally introducing the behavior characteristics of a "Libertien"-type of person to a child that has not yet reached its maturity. Some people are known to NEVER, EVER, IN THEIR ENTIRE LIFETIME REACH A LEVEL OF MATURITY, however I speak of it in terms of Time & Space, years-of-age, I also know a lot about the BLACK MARKET. I know that there is a market for human bodies, alive & dead, since there is a market for body parts, please reveiw your history, see THE BODY SNATCHERS, maybe watch the movie COMA. Alas, as I state everywhere I go, since it has been a trademark operation of the people in the USA to deny me the rights of a citizen, a veteran, a disabled person, any employment other than slavery that does not give monetary compensation (they lust for money, greed, avarice, etc), a human being, then I can and will say that I cannot do anything for you which is why I've always used the song by Ten Years After called: "I'd Like To Change The World". So, since I cannot have an effect on the existance of the sale of human bodies, and you people really do not care to listen to what I have to say about the practice since it is not knocking on your door (see Deep Purple: Perfect Strangers), NIMBY-NOT-IN-MY-BACK- YARD, then I have no need to waste my time banging my head against a brick wall to find out if banging my head against a brick wall will cause pain in my head and not in their heads. I will stand by the statement somebody made: I will hold make you accountable for those > > statements. Now for your statement: > Just chill, man. colette: NO, THERE IS NO ROOM TO CHILL HERE. The statement is clear, the action is DEVIANT so deviant that it envolves the torture of another human, <....> >(I > forget his name now) colette: Abraham, the Jewish partriarch. > Han reporting a myth to this group (even if he thinks > it might have happened) doesn't make him accountable for anything. colette: It should be labeled as mythology or metaphor, yet even the most ignorant of buddhist students know that Karma automatically makes the individual ACCOUNTABLE for anything and everything they say and do. Even Johnny Appleseed knew that he had to impregnate the earth, the dirt, with the apple seed before the apple tree would grow. Thus, it sounds like the person that advocates the sale of humans is the same person that ADVERTISES the sale, SPEAKS HIGHLY OF THE PRACTICE, etc. > Buddhists wouldn't give away their children to practice dana. colette: ah, such a trusting field mouse. You think that Barn Owls are such humourous jokes, mythology, well, guess what may be in your future. <....> > It is > just a myth to illustrate a point. colette: I do that EVERY CHANCE I GET so as to remove any MISS INTERPRETATION, MISS DIRECTION, MISS UNDERSTANDING, etc. -- it's an assembly line thing, barbie and ken dolls are all made on the same assembly line and through a process of graduated education, are manufactured for sale to the open market by means of a warranty, guarantee, from the institution of manufacture, University. At least, I make sure I illuminate my metaphors, examples, etc. by some very Skillful Means. toodles, colette <....> #69414 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi James, > > On 10/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > > This reaction is quite strange. Have you considered that perhaps you > > have unresolved issues from childhood abuse? > > > > Thanks, James. The thought has crossed my mind. Cold comfort to be > told by kamma experts that I had it coming to me :-) I don't believe that there are any "kamma experts" in this group. No one can know all of the features of another person's kamma. Kamma is a useful guide, but it should never be used as a weapon (in judgement)- against others or oneself. Some people in this group see the wisdom of "cold showers"- I don't see the wisdom in such an approach. Loving-kindness and compassion are much more powerful and effective than "cold showers". Metta, James #69415 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) buddhatrue Hi colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi James, > > Hmmmmm, quite a predickament you've wandered into. Kindo makes ya > wonder that "just maybe it is a mine field" and I better watch where > it is I step. James: Yes, it is somewhat a minefield, so I will be careful. I will try to respond to you with skillful means; but, if I don't, please forgive me. > colette: I have worked in the "Sex-For-Sale" industry and am very > intement with it's operations. Way back in the early 1970s I was in > 6th grade and went to my first group sex thing, I guess something of > an orgy, but we were young and it was the Washington D.C. suburbs, > and love was everywhere. James: I am very sorry to hear that this happened to you. However, I think you are very brave to share this information and I applaud you. Secrets only enslave us. > Now for your statement: > > > Just chill, man. > > colette: NO, THERE IS NO ROOM TO CHILL HERE. The statement is clear, > the action is DEVIANT so deviant that it envolves the torture of > another human, <....> James: We are in this group because we want to purify our minds. We want to experience a happiness that is not dependent on the six senses and their objects. Therefore, to examine this situation mindfully and with equanimity is the best approach. "Righteous Anger" is just anger and is never benefical to anyone. Colette, when something this terrible happens to a person in his/her past, he/she can either cling to it, supress it, or let it go. The most wise approach is to let it go. That doesn't mean to pretend that it didn't happen or that it wasn't a terrible thing; that means to start each day (even each moment) new and fresh so that you can move forward with wisdom. There is a Chinese saying "You can't stop the bird of sadness from flying overhead, but you can stop it from making a nest in your hair!" We all experience sadness and suffering, but we should let it go. Toodles and Metta, James #69416 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: .... > Howard: > When we're lost in thought (or stupor) so that we don't even know > we are distracted, > the distraction and all else may be real, but it is not known as > anything! > --------------------------------------- ... S: That's very true. However, the point is that it's like that already by conditions. So the answer is to develop awareness an understanding of such present dhammas when they arise rather than thinking another situation might be preferable. I liked this recent extract Nina gave (from one of her old letters, quoting K.Sujin on a tape we sent her): >"Khun Sujin said: "One can benefit from having lobha or dosa. One can see to what extent one has accumulated these realities. Isn't it useful? One can see one's akusala. Otherwise one could not know how much one has. No one likes it, but instead of disliking it why not use it as an opportunity for the development of understanding. It is very beneficial to understand akusala in detail. It always arises and it is there, from morning to night, but it is not understood as such. Paññå can see akusala as a conditioned nåma, so that the idea of self will be eliminated from all akusala of all levels. If there is no understanding of akusala how can one know whether one has less akusala or more? If there is no understanding of akusala can one say that one has developed understanding? " Several times during the discussions Khun Sujin pointed out that awareness can "slip in" very naturally, and then "slip out", just as naturally as thinking or hearing which slip in and out. They come and go and we do not have to do anything about these realities, since they arise because of conditions. We should understand the nature of anattå of awareness instead of trying to have awareness. Are we glad when there is a moment of awareness? That shows our clinging. There are many conditions necessary for the arising of awareness, such as reading, discussing and considering the characteristic of the reality which appears as not self. When we remember that many conditions are necessary we shall be less inclined to induce sati. If one tries hard to make awareness arise one thinks that there is awareness, but it is not right awareness."< **** S: You'll ask what the conditions are for awareness to 'slip in'. Considering dhammas now as dhammas, as anatta - realities which arise by conditions, including distraction, attachment or whatever else - is a condition for such awareness, very naturally, to arise whether playing with Sophie or sitting cross-legged. Metta, Sarah > Hope Sophie's grown into a healthy toddler by now... > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thanks! She's doing great! :-) .... S: ....and naturally means that enjoying Sophie is no obstacle to the Path. Any dhammas, including such enjoyment, can be known for what they are! =========== #69417 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-))( Re: New Pic!) sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Btw, w/r to your little rave in #69093, > > James: A rave? I didn't really think it was a rave; I just thought I > was thinking out loud. But, I guess when Phil does that it is > rambling and when I do that it is raving?? ;-)) .... S: ;-)) .... > > when have Nina, Jon or I compared > > 'parinibbana to annihilation' > > James: Of course none of you use those exact words, but that is in > essence what you say. If anyone asks you, "What happens to the > arahant at paranibbana?" Any answer other than: "That is beyond the > scope of the teaching" is either going to be annihilation or > eternalism. You, Jon, and Nina tend to describe the experience in > terms of annihilation- that it is like a candle being blown > out. "Poof" you're gone!! .... S: Well the Buddha did refer to rebirth when there is fuel and not without, just like for a fire. Of course, it's not a question of any person being 'gone', because there was never a person in the first place. The khandas are the fire and lobha is the fuel. .... >Mahayanists tend to describe the > experience in terms of eternalism: becoming cosmic "Buddha-mind" or > being reborn in "Pure Land". Either description is inappropriate. > The experience is beyond the comprehension of our thinking minds. > Therefore, the only description of the experience of paranibbana > is "That is beyond the scope of the teaching." .... S: Ok. Still, as Nina said, the last citta of the present life is always cuti-citta (death consciousness), even for an arahant. For the arahant, this is not succeeded by a patisandhi citta (birth consciousness)as usual. .... >And, I only > mentioned this (raved about it ;-)) is because Herman appears to have > a real fear of being annihilated and believes that that is the goal > of Buddhism. I wanted to assure him that annihilation isn't the goal > of Buddhism. ... S: All our fears about death are related to our attachment to a Self and what becomes of *me*, of course. .... > > or suggested that the teachings can all be > > 'intellectually figured out' without FAITH (I prefer confidence)? > > James: Well, I have never heard `The Sons of KS' ;-)) talk about the > importance of faith. And Sarah, "confidence" has a slightly > different meaning than "faith". From the Buddhist Dictionary by > Nyanatiloka: > > "Faith is called the seed (Sn. v. 77) of all wholesome states > because, according to commentarial explanations, it inspires the mind > with confidence (okappana, pasâda) and determination (adhimokkha), > for 'launching out' (pakkhandhana; s. M. 122) to cross the flood of > samsâra." .... S: Faith as the seed is saddha cetasika. It is saddha which I refer to when I speak of confidence. .... > > Faith has a fuller meaning than `confidence' because it includes the > states of right effort and right action. Faith is a more emotional, > rounded feeling. Confidence, on the other hand, is simply an > intellectual agreement with something. Confidence doesn't include > the desire for action. ... S: Let's stick to saddha. Saddha doesn't include right effort and right action, but whenever there is right effort or right action, saddha is there. It arises with all wholesome states, 'the seed'. When understanding grows, saddha grows. It's not an 'intellectual agreement', but a firm confidence in what is wholesome, skilful or beneficial. I agree that it doesn't include 'the desire for action' or desire for anything. (You might like to review the chapter on 'Saddha' in 'Cetasikas' to understand how the texts use the term. .... Sarah, why is it that you prefer the > secondary definition of saddha- which is confidence rather than > faith? Because `confidence' is dry, unemotional, and passive- the > earmarks of the sons of KS. .... S: When there is confidence there is calm, mindfulness and equanimity too. If this is what you mean by 'dry, unemotional, and passive', ok:-). .... > > 'A dry > > exercise in futility'......I assure you that none of us would be > spending > > all our time here if it was this!! > > James: Hmmmm...now who's raving?? ;-)) I described this as the > manner in which you describe the Dhamma, not the manner in which you > practice it. ... S: ;-) At least you agree that righteous anger and emotional outbursts are not the 'practice' of saddha (faith/confidence)! .... Sarah, your tai chi, yoga, and surfing activities, even > though you are dane to admit it, are forms of meditation. They > require increased and prolonged concentration on singular objects. > Sarah, you are a closet meditator! LOL! .... S: I'm happy to use the term 'meditate' in its common useage of 'reflect' or 'contemplate'. In this sense, I'm happy to come out as a meditator in my Tai chi, yoga or surf:-) (We're even going on a surf camp/retreat soon!!) .... > And your pilgrimages to India and Thailand are not just > demonstrations of confidence, they are expressions of faith. You are > also a closet faith-follower! LOL! ... S: A very open faith/confidence follower! ... > > No need to respond - just registering a > > little protest as I expect you were waiting for one:-). > > James: Actually, I have so many threads going that I wasn't really > waiting for a response. However, I'm sure you know that I wouldn't > pass up the opportunity to respond to this post!! ;-)) .... S: ;-)) Actually, you've been involved in many good threads recently, I know. Lots of metta in action to various friends, evident in some of the kind and gentle posts. .... Metta, Sarah p.s >James: Yeah, we have a lot of closet cases around here! lol .... S: lol too... ========= #69418 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theravada groups in Germany sarahprocter... Hi Renbin & Dieter, Renbin, welcome to DSG! I hope you find some friends or a group in Halle. Perhaps you can start one otherwise! If you'd care to tell us a little about your background and interest in Buddhism, that would be interesting. Also, I'm sure you'll make many good friends here and have a lot of support if you ask any questions or join in any discussions. Dieter, thanks for your assistance. When I saw Renbin's message, I really wondered whether anyone would have any suggestion. I believe you posted a long time back. Nice to see you again. Pls help us assist any other new members or chip in on any threads! I hope it's getting warmer in Hamburg now. A friend of mine moved there a few months ago and found it very cold after Hong Kong! Metta, Sarah ====== --- Dieter Moeller wrote: <..> > Hi Renbin, > > it is very unlikely that you will find such a group in the region, > not sure even in the country. But it may be worthwhile to get in touch > with the German Buddhist Union ( http://www.dharma.de/dbu/frameset.php ) > > with greetings from Hamburg #69419 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where does Anger start from? sarahprocter... Hi James (Nitesh & all), I like your further reflections here.... --- buddhatrue wrote: > > S: As you correctly suggest, metta cannot be 'radiated' (or shown) > to > > oneself. > > James: I'm glad you agree with my suggesstion. ... S: Yes, a good one. .... > Sarah, the Vism. in this regard is very, very confusing. Here is > what the text states: > > "First of all it [metta] should be developed only towards oneself, > doing it repeatedly thus: `May I be happy and free from suffering' > or `May I keep myself free from enmity, affliction and anxiety and > live happily'. If that is so, does it not conflict with what is said > in the texts? For there is no mention of any development of it > towards oneself in what is said in the Vibhanga…Patisambhida…and what > is said in the Metta-sutta…. > > James: So, Buddhaghosa writes that one must begin by radiating metta > to oneself. However, he acknowledges that such advice can't be found > anywhere in the texts! .... S: Let's go slowly through it. First it *seems* as though it's suggesting developing metta towards oneself. If this were so, it would conflict with the other texts which clearly indicate that metta is developed towards others only. .... >Then he goes on to justify this instruction: > > "It does not conflict. Why not? Because that refers to absorption. > But this [initial development towards oneself] refers to [making > oneself] an example. For even if he developed lovingkindness for a > hundred or a thousand years in this way `I am happy' and so on, > absorption would never arise. But if he develops it in this way `I > am happy. Just as I want to be happy and dread pain, as I want to > live and not to die, so do other beings, too', making himself the > example, then desire for other beings' welfare and happiness arises > in him. .... S: So above, when it *seemed* to suggest the development of metta towards oneself, what is meant is that when we appreciate just as we'd like to be happy and avoid pain, so would others, it is a condition for metta to develop. In this way, knowing our own attachments and wishes, we can also appreciate others' concerns. So oneself is used as an example. It is not the development of metta towards oneself that is meant at all. .... >And this method is indicated by the Blessed One's saying: > `I visited all quarters with my mind > Nor found I any dearer than myself; > `Self is likewise to every other dear; > `Who loves himself will never harm another' > > James: Talk about a leap in logic!! Buddhaghosa is saying that we > should radiate metta towards ourselves and he uses a quote by the > Buddha, in support, which states that we all already have metta > toward ourselves. ... S: Buddhaghosa is saying we should develop metta to others because, just like us, no one is ever dearer than 'Self'. The quote (used by the Buddha to King Pasenadi after the King's conversation with Q.Mallika, see Udana 5-1) is to indicate the attachment, *not* the metta towards ourselves! ... >If we all already hold ourselves dear, why radiate > metta toward oneself? Additionally, the Buddha doesn't teach that > this additional, initial step is necessary. ... S: We hold ourselves very dear with attachment. No need to hold ourselves any dearer! We're already obsessed with our own wishes! But as inidicated in the Udana, the Buddha reminded us to appreciate that just as we hold ourselves so 'dear', we can also appreciate the same is true for others. Therefore we should treat everyone with friendliness and kindness when we have the chance. From the commentary to these lines in the Udana: "...since each being holds the self dear in that way, is one desiring happiness for that self, one for whom dukkha is repulsive, therefore one desiring self, in wanting well-being and happiness for that self, should not harm, should not kill, should not even antagonise with the hand, a clod of earth or a stick and so on, another being, upwards from and including even a mere ant or other small insect. For when dukkha is caused by oneself to some other, that dukkha is, after an interval of time, observed in one's own self, as though it were passing over therefrom. For this is the law of karma." ... > I think that by doing by radiating metta toward ourselves we are > telling ourselves that we don't already hold ourselves dear. If I > keep telling myself, "May I be happy, May I be happy", that will mean > that I am not already happy and could never really get happiness. > Such a practice will increase anxiety rather than decrease it. ... S: I think it just increases attachment to ourselves. The danger is that such a practice is taken for being skilful and part of the path the Buddha taught. ... > (This part of the Vism. demonstrates that Buddhaghosa has no qualms > whatsoever with extrapolating on the teachings and he will use the > most far-out logic to justify his extrapolations.) ... S: Either that or else Buddhaghosa is misunderstood....:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #69420 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Where does Anger start from? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Either that or else Buddhaghosa is misunderstood....:-) > Oh yes, poor, misunderstood Buddhaghosa...tsk, tsk, tsk...;-)) > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= Metta, James #69421 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for help with Pali pronunciation jonoabb Hi All If anyone has managed to download the sound files referred to be Ven Dhammanando in his message to RobK below, I'd be grateful if they could send me a copy, as I'm not able to open them. Thanks. Jon Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Dear Robert, > > >> This may help to isolate the sound:) >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhQf36GYd68 >> > > :D > > I think the sound files on this site might be more convenient to use: > http://www.jamaicans.com/speakja/sound.htm > > The way the speaker pronounces the c in 'car' is a good example of a > palatal plosive like the Pali 'c'. For the Pali 'j' listen to the > pronunciation of the two g's in the sentence "Gwaan go heat" ("go on > and eat"). > > Best wishes, > Dhammanando > > #69422 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/11/07 5:39:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > .... > >Howard: > > When we're lost in thought (or stupor) so that we don't even know > >we are distracted, > >the distraction and all else may be real, but it is not known as > >anything! > >--------------------------------------- > ... > S: That's very true. However, the point is that it's like that already by > conditions. So the answer is to develop awareness an understanding of such > present dhammas when they arise rather than thinking another situation > might be preferable. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree completely. What is already present is over and done with. It is seeing the nature of what arises when it arises and how phenomena, both useful and harmful, arise due to conditions, that cultivate the mind and lead towards wisdom and awakening. Looking for "better times" is just craving, the primary condition for suffering. -------------------------------------------- > > I liked this recent extract Nina gave (from one of her old letters, > quoting K.Sujin on a tape we sent her): > > >"Khun Sujin said: > > "One can benefit from having lobha or dosa. One can see to what > extent one has accumulated these realities. Isn't it useful? One can > see one's akusala. Otherwise one could not know how much one has. No > one likes it, but instead of disliking it why not use it as an > opportunity for the development of understanding. It is very > beneficial to understand akusala in detail. It always arises and it > is there, from morning to night, but it is not understood as such. > Paññå can see akusala as a conditioned nåma, so that the idea of self > will be eliminated from all akusala of all levels. If there is no > understanding of akusala how can one know whether one has less > akusala or more? If there is no understanding of akusala can one say > that one has developed understanding? " ----------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly concur. Even suffering is useful - it is the spur to change that eventually undoes the roots of suffering itself, and, moreover, our own suffering can lead to compassion for others when other requisite conditions are also in place. ----------------------------------------- > > Several times during the discussions Khun Sujin pointed out that > awareness can "slip in" very naturally, and then "slip out", just as > naturally as thinking or hearing which slip in and out. They come and > go and we do not have to do anything about these realities, since > they arise because of conditions. We should understand the nature of > anattå of awareness instead of trying to have awareness. Are we glad > when there is a moment of awareness? That shows our clinging. > ------------------------------------ Howard: There is also the simple appreciation of what is useful. I would add, that mindfulness, monitoring the mind to stay alert and present, is usefully engaged in. The simple keeping in mind of the usefulness of such monitoring, frequently *reflecting* on it's usefulness, can cultivate a habit of "automatic" mindfulness. I have found that to be the case, with an ongoing introspection being almost a way of life for me. ------------------------------------ There> > are many conditions necessary for the arising of awareness, such as > reading, discussing and considering the characteristic of the reality > which appears as not self. When we remember that many conditions are > necessary we shall be less inclined to induce sati. If one tries hard > to make awareness arise one thinks that there is awareness, but it is > not right awareness."< > **** > S: You'll ask what the conditions are for awareness to 'slip in'. > Considering dhammas now as dhammas, as anatta - realities which arise by > conditions, including distraction, attachment or whatever else - is a > condition for such awareness, very naturally, to arise whether playing > with Sophie or sitting cross-legged. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Please see my remarks above. I'm not sure that we really differ on this matter, but possible differ only in our descriptions. ------------------------------------------ > > Metta, > > Sarah > > >Hope Sophie's grown into a healthy toddler by now... > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Thanks! She's doing great! :-) > .... > S: ....and naturally means that enjoying Sophie is no obstacle to the > Path. Any dhammas, including such enjoyment, can be known for what they > are! > ====================== With metta, Howard #69423 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:59 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (43) nichiconn Dear Friends, Mittaakaa.liitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa = The commentary on the verses of Therii Mittaakaali. Saddhaaya pabbajitvaanaati-aadikaa mittaakaa.liyaa theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii imasmi.m buddhuppaade kurura.t.the kammaasadhammanigame braahma.nakule nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m pattaa mahaasatipa.t.thaanadesanaaya pa.tiladdhasaddhaa bhikkhuniisu pabbajitvaa satta sa.mvaccharaani laabhasakkaaragiddhikaa hutvaa sama.nadhamma.m karontii tattha tattha vicaritvaa aparabhaage yoniso ummujjantii (*) sa.mvegajaataa hutvaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa na cirasseva saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa udaanavasena- 92. "Saddhaaya pabbajitvaana, agaarasmaanagaariya.m; vicari.mha.m tena tena, laabhasakkaara-ussukaa. 93. "Ri~ncitvaa parama.m attha.m, hiinamattha.m aseviha.m; kilesaana.m vasa.m gantvaa, saama~n~nattha.m na bujjhiha.m. 94. "Tassaa me ahu sa.mvego, nisinnaaya vihaarake; ummaggapa.tipannaamhi, ta.nhaaya vasamaagataa. 95. "Appaka.m jiivita.m mayha.m, jaraa byaadhi ca maddati; puraaya.m bhijjati kaayo, na me kaalo pamajjitu.m. 96. "Yathaabhuutamavekkhantii, khandhaana.m udayabbaya.m; vimuttacittaa u.t.thaasi.m, kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. The verses beginning I went forth in faith are Therii Mittaakaalii's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. In this Buddha era, she was born in a brahman family in the town of Kammaasadhamma in the kingdom of Kuru. When she came of age, she gained faith through [hearing] the Greater Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness and went forth among the bhikkhuniis. For seven years she was greedy for gain and honour while performing the duty of a recluse. She wandered here and there. Then afterwards, through understanding properly, a profound stirring arose, and she established insight (*). She attained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations after a very short time. Looking over her attainment, she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: 92. I went forth from the home to the homeless state and wandered here and there, greedy for gain and honour. 93. I missed the highest goal and pursued the lowest goal. Gone under the mastery of the defilements, I did not know the goal of the ascetic's state. 94. I experienced a profound stirring as I sat in my little cell, thinking, "I have entered upon the wrong road. I have come under the mastery of craving. 95. "My life is short. Old age and sickness are destroying it. There is no time for me to be careless before this body is broken." 96. Looking at the arising and passing away of the aggregates as they really are, I stood up with my mind completely released. I have done the Buddha's teaching. (*)Mrs R-D: "Later on she was reborn intellectually"; noting "Yoniso uppajjantii, a most unusual phrase for mental growth." Her translation of the verses reads: Leaving my home through call of faith, I sought The homeless life, and dwelt with eye intent On offerings from the faithful and the praise Of this one and the gratitude of that. (92) The path of insight I neglected, turned From highest good to follow baser ends. I lay enthralled to worldly vice, and naught To win the goal of my high calling wrought. (93) But anguish crept upon me, even me, Whenas I pondered in my little cell: Ah me! how have I come into this evil road! Into the power of Craving have I strayed! (94) Brief is the span of life yet left to me; Old age, disease, hang imminent to crush. Now, ere this body perish and dissolve, Swift let me be; no time have I for sloth. (95) And contemplating, as they really are, The Aggregates of life that come and go, I rose and stood with mind emancipate! For me the Buddha's word had come to pass. (96) Tattha vicari.mha.m tena tena, laabhasakkaara-ussukaati laabhe ca sakkaare ca ussukaa yuttappayuttaa hutvaa tena tena baahusaccadhammakathaadinaa laabhuppaadahetunaa vicari.m aha.m. 92. There, [I] wandered (vicari.m 'ha.m) here and there, greedy for gain and honour (laabha-sakkaara-ussukaa) means: greedy for (ussukaa), devoted to and intent on gain (laabhi) and honour (sakkaare). Being very intent upon that, I wandered (vicari.m aha.m) here and there in order to gain profit through discourses on the Doctrine and my great learning, etc. Ri~ncitvaa parama.m atthanti jhaanavipassanaamaggaphalaadi.m uttama.m attha.m jahitvaa cha.d.detvaa. Hiinamattha.m asevihanti catupaccayasa"nkhaata-aamisabhaavato hiina.m laamaka.m attha.m ayoniso pariyesanaaya pa.tisevi.m aha.m. Kilesaana.m vasa.m gantvaati maanamadata.nhaadiina.m kilesaana.m vasa.m upagantvaa saama~n~nattha.m sama.nakicca.m na bujjhi.m na jaani.m aha.m. 93. I missed the highest goal (parama.m attha.m) means: I abandoned, I gave up the highest goal (uttma.m attha.m) of the absorption states, insight, the paths, and the fruition states, etc. I pursued (asevi 'ha.m) the lowest goal means: I pursued (pa.tiseva.m aha.m) through improper search the lowest, inferior goal that is the worldly goods called the four requisites. Gone (gantvaa) under the mastery of the defilements means: arrived at (upagantvaa) the mastery of the defilements, pride, intoxication, and craving, etc, I did not know (na bujjhi.m), I did not know (na jaani.m aha.m) the goal of the ascetic's state, the duty of a recluse. Nisinnaaya vihaaraketi mama vasanaka-ovarake nisinnaaya ahu sa.mvego. Kathanti ce, aaha "ummaggapa.tipannaamhii"ti. Tattha ummaggapa.tipannaamhiiti yaavadeva anupaadaaya parinibbaanatthamida.m saasana.m, tattha saasane pabbajitvaa kamma.t.thaana.m amanasikarontii tassa ummaggapa.tipannaa amhiiti. Ta.nhaaya vasamaagataati paccayuppaadanata.nhaaya vasa.m upagataa. 94. As I sat in my little cell (vihaarake) means: as I sat in my cell of residence (mama vasanaka-ovarake) I experienced a profound stirring. If it is asked, "Why?," she said, I have entered upon the wrong road. There, I have entered upon the wrong road (ummagga-pa.tipannaa 'mhii) means: although this teaching has quenching without clinging as its goal, after going forth in that teaching, I did not pay attention to my subject of meditation, I (amhii) have entered upon the wrong road. I have come under (aagataa) the mastery of craving (ta.nhaaya) means: I arrived at (upagataa) [being under] the mastery of craving for the production of the requisites. Appaka.m jiivita.m mayhanti paricchinnakaalaa vajjitato bahuupaddavato ca mama jiivita.m appaka.m paritta.m lahuka.m. Jaraa byaadhi ca maddatiiti ta~nca samantato aapatitvaa nippothentaa pabbataa viya jaraa byaadhi ca maddati nimmathati. "Maddare"tipi paa.tho. Puraaya.m bhijjati kaayoti aya.m kaayo bhijjati puraa. Yasmaa tassa eka.msiko bhedo, tasmaa na me kaalo pamajjitu.m aya.m kaalo a.t.thakkha.navajjito navamo kha.no, so pamajjitu.m na yuttoti tassaahu.m sa.mvegoti yojanaa. 95. My (mayhan) life is short means: my time is restricted, circumscribed, and of great danger. My (mama) life is short, limited, trifling. My (mayhan) life is short means: my (mama) life is short, limited, insignificant, because it is not excluded from a fixed period of time and because it has many dangers. Old age and sickness are destroying it means: now all of that falls upon it like mountains crushing it. Old age and sickness are destroying it, crushing it out. This is also the reading maddare [for maddati ("are destroying")]. Before this body is broken (puraaya.m bhijjati kaayo) means: before this body is broken (aya.m kaayo bhijjati puraa). This time is my ninth opportunity. Leaving behind the [former] eight opportunities, do not be intent on carelessness. She was profoundly stirred is to be understood. Yathaabhuutamavekkhantiiti eva.m jaatasa.mvegaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa aniccaadimanasikaarena yathaabhuutamavekkhantii. Ki.m avekkhantiiti aaha "khandhaana.m udayabbayan"ti. "Avijjaasamudayaa ruupasamudayo"ti-aadinaa (pa.ti. ma. 1.50) samapa~n~naasappabhedaana.m pa~ncanna.m upaadaanakkhandhaana.m uppaadanirodha~nca udayabbayaanupassanaaya avekkhantii vipassana.m ussukkaapetvaa maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa sabbaso kilesehi ca bhavehi ca vimuttacittaa u.t.thaasi.m, ubhato u.t.thaanena maggena bhavattayato caati vu.t.thitaa ahosi.m. Sesa.m vuttanayameva. Mittaakaa.liitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 96. Looking at [them] as they really are means: being one for whom a profound stirring has arisen, having established insight through paying attention to impermanence, etc, looking at [them] as they really are. Looking at what? At the arising and passing away of the aggregates. Eagerly practising insight, obvserving, contemplating arising and passing away, the arising and cessation of the five aggregates of clinging with exactly fifty divisions by means of such statements as, "With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of materiality, etc." With my mind completely released from defilements and existences through the paths, one after the other, I stood up, I rose up from the three states of existence both through the paths and by standing up. The meaning of the rest has been explained. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Mittaakaalii. === peace, connie #69424 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (43) upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 3/11/07 12:04:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: > Dear Friends, > > Mittaakaa.liitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa = The commentary on the verses of > Therii Mittaakaali. > > ============================= I've been skimming through many of these, Connie, but I read this one thoroughly, and I thoroughly enjoyed it! :-) A very nice piece of commentary, IMO. I thank you for all your work in posting this material! :-) With metta, Howard #69425 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:36 pm Subject: fishies and snakes nichiconn Good Afternoon, Colette, Colette: I have my own pet-pieves about the trawling industry but that's another story. You give mystical thought, and I like the fragrance I smell and am attracted to, huh. ;-) Connie: LOL! "All the young girls love Alice." Seems we've done a bit of swimming around the same waters, eh? Anyway, still in the basement reading Path of Purity on the "Great Elements" and thought you might get an appreciative kick out of the poem following after the deceitfulness of the "seductive transformations of their external appearance": << "Of the immensity of their metamorphoses" means, because of the great changes [undergone by] the elements in material forms, derived as well as underived. Of these, the vastness of the change in the underived is manifested at the destruction of a world-cycle; that of the derived is manifested when the elements are disturbed. Therefore: -- When heat consumes the world, the flame of fire Leaps upward even to the Brahmaa world. When angry waters whelm the universe, The whole world of ten myriad ko.tis falls. When perturbation of the element Of motion overwhelms the universe, The whole world of ten myriad ko.tis falls. As bodies that the ka.t.thamukha bites, Stiffen, so bodies from the tottering Of the extension-element grow stiff As though they entered ka.t.thamukha's mouth. As bodies that the puutimukha bites Grow putrid, bodies from the tottering Of the cohesion-element will rot As though they entered puutimukha's mouth. [368] As bodies that the aggimukha bites Grow hot, so bodies from the tottering Of the heat-element wax also hot As though they entered aggimukha's mouth. As bodies that the satthamukha bites Are cut up, bodies from the tottering Of the element of motion are cut up As though they entered satthamukha's mouth. Such mighty changes are implied in the name "great phenomena," or primaries. >> Take care, connie. #69426 From: "Ren Yang" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Theravada groups in Germany inner_silence Dear Dieter and Sarah, Thanks for providing the information. I'm from Malaysia and I will be going to Halle to further my studies soon. I've come into contact with a group of Theravadan Buddhists in Leipzig (http://www.budd-ges.de/). They meet at different places once a month as they do not have a fixed venue for activities at the moment. I would be very happy to join them but I'm afraid my being not fluent in Deutsch might be a problem. Will need some time to learn the language! I'm interested in Buddhism because it allows inquiry about the teachings and it also addresses the issues of the mind, which is very rare in other religions that I know of. I'm still a novice although I have called myself a Buddhist all my life. Hope to learn more through the conversations in this group. Thanks again, Renbin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Renbin & Dieter, > > Renbin, welcome to DSG! I hope you find some friends or a group in Halle. > Perhaps you can start one otherwise! > > If you'd care to tell us a little about your background and interest in > Buddhism, that would be interesting. Also, I'm sure you'll make many good > friends here and have a lot of support if you ask any questions or join in > any discussions. <.....> #69427 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:57 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (43) nichiconn Hey there, Howard, > Therii Mittaakaali. ============================= I've been skimming through many of these, Connie, but I read this one thoroughly, and I thoroughly enjoyed it! :-) A very nice piece of commentary, IMO. I thank you for all your work in posting this material! :-) ======= C: No sarcasm there! Or here :) Thanks. Actually, it's fun to me. Say, did you ever consider Mt Sineru as being descriptive of how our part of the universe appears and not just some 'this world' thing? :) peace, connie #69428 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (43) upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 3/11/07 4:59:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: > Say, did you ever consider Mt Sineru as being descriptive of how our part > of the universe appears and not just some 'this world' thing? :) > =========================== Actually, that's an idea raised at one time by Amara (if you remember her), and I thought it was an interesting one. :-) With metta, Howard #69429 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:47 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (14) ken_aitch Hi Andrew and Rob K, ----------- <. . .> A: > The reference to omniscience (which I take as a reference to a perfect Buddha) suggests to me that the true significance of the story will be difficult for a worldling to grasp. ------------ Like all Dhamma stories, this must be about paramattha dhammas, mustn't it? And yet, people insist on looking to the story itself for guidance. That will never get them anywhere because stories (concepts) do not contain absolute characteristics. The story is about a generous, kind, wise man who gives his wife and children to a mean, cruel, foolish man. Let's have a little confidence in dana, sila and bhavana and assume unreservedly that it is a good story. We can assume the opposite when we read about a mean, cruel foolish man giving his wife and children away. (Even though, on the face of it, the story will be exactly the same.) I expect this will have a bearing on two other stories (one about a bombardier who does his duty without intending to kill, and another (which I have forgotten) about an abortionist) – that Robert has alluded to. It will be interesting to get Robert's view on this thread as well. Ken H #69430 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:02 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (43) nichiconn Hi again, Howard > Say, did you ever consider Mt Sineru as being descriptive of how our part > of the universe appears and not just some 'this world' thing? :) > =========================== Actually, that's an idea raised at one time by Amara (if you remember her), and I thought it was an interesting one. :-) ===== Yes and yes... and yes again! Actually, it didn't impress me all that much at the time... 'atlas shrugged' ;) but for some reason (or none) it just came back to me when I was reading about how the different elements 'support' each other. You're back home? Another friend's grand-daughter, Serenity, is a "Miss July" (when she turns 8) on a Down's Syndrome Awareness Outreach calendar for this year. Pretty cool, I think. peace, connie #69431 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika robmoult Hi Larry (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Nina (and Rob), > > N: " The kamma committed before and 'remembered' during the last > javanacittas is the janaka kamma, producing kamma, that produces rebirth > of the next life. > The last javanacittas themselves are weak (dubbala), and the previous > kamma that is their object is the object conditioned by the janaka > kamma. That former kamma that is 'done and accumulated' (katatta > upacita) is the janaka kamma that produces the rebirth." > > L: What is the term for objects of consciousness that arise because of > kamma? "Kamma produced"? > ===== I am quoting from CMA, V.35 (p 221): Now in the case of those who are about to die, at the time of death one of the following presents itself, according to circumstances, through any of the six (sense) doors by the power of kamma: (i) a kamma that is to produce rebirth-linking in the mext existence (ii) a sign of kamma, that is a form, etc., that had been apprehended previously at the time of performing the kamma or something that was instrumental in performing the kamma (iii) a sign of destiny, that is (a symbol or state) to be obtained and experienced in the immediately following existence So the object of the death process is driven by the power of kamma (the productive, rebirth-linking kamma which drives the new existence). The object of the death process can be one of the three things listed above. In the case of (i), the object would be a memory arising in the mind door. In the case of (ii) or (iii), the object could be a memory arising in the mind door or a present object arising at one of the sense doors. Larry, does this help? ===== > It occurred to me that when a volitional consciousness is the object of > any kind of consciousness it has no volitional potency in the sense that > it can't condition kamma vipaka or accumulate. Does this have something > to do with the nature of an object of consciousness? For example, an > object of consciousness is implicitly other than present consciousness. > ===== You are correct that memories or ideas (objects of mind-door processes) do not themselves create kamma - rather the javana cittas (the mental states which are aware of the object) are the things which create kamma. Metta, Rob M :-) #69432 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:57 pm Subject: Re: All about formless planes robmoult Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Thanks for the fire-hose, RobM! > I'm glad it seems you might have a bit of "free time"! > Not to ignore the rest, but I was surprised to read that << while in the > formless plane, a uninstructed worldling can attain a change-of- lineage > and become a sotapanna. Of course, once a sotapanna, the being can enjoy > the associated fruit citta. >> Can you say more about how this could > happen without rupa? I guess s/he would already have had to attain to > some levels of insight... ?? ===== Your entry ticket into the formless planes is having achieved an arupajhana. If this is what you mean by "some levels of insight...", then yes, it is a prerequisite. Achieving stages of sainthood is purely a mental phenomena. I am curious as to why you would consider it necessary to have a body to do so. Please help me to understand better. Metta, Rob M :-) #69433 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:05 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (14) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > > The story is about a generous, kind, wise man who gives his wife and > children to a mean, cruel, foolish man. Let's have a little > confidence in dana, sila and bhavana and assume unreservedly that it > is a good story. We can assume the opposite when we read about a > mean, cruel foolish man giving his wife and children away. (Even > though, on the face of it, the story will be exactly the same.) > > I expect this will have a bearing on two other stories (one about a > bombardier who does his duty without intending to kill, and another > (which I have forgotten) about an abortionist) ?Ethat Robert has > alluded to. It will be interesting to get Robert's view on this > thread as well. > Dear Ken(and Andrew) I think you put it well. The Bodhisatta was in his last human life before the life when he became a Sammasambuddha. He had accumulated parami for unthinkably long periods of time, and so he was overflowing with all good qualities including giving. How could he not give when asked, it would be like trying to stop the moon going round the earth. It was certainly maha kusala. Nevertheless even Vessantara had some pain and emotion about this giving, it was indeed the limit of dana, it cannot be exceeded. This does not mean that all Buddhist are supposed to copy the Bodhisatta as only a bodhisatta performs giving to the extent of giving away his children or throwing himself off a cliff to feed a tiger. Normal Buddhists only aspire to savaka status and so the degree of parami they perform is comparative lesser. So there is no danger in telling this story, and in Thailand it is the most popular Jataka and engraved on many temple walls, I think all Thai know the story. But while the chidren experienced discmonfort, they were soon back among friends and family, it was indeed a most happy story IMO. Even the gods were watching over the chidren as Jujaka took them away. At night the gods would free the chidren and rub their legs and hands, and give them food: "thus by the help of the gods the chidren went on their way unhurt". When Jujaka brought them to a city and told the king that he had been given the children by Vessantara the court was upset and people?@spoke in disprise of Vessantara but the boy spoke out in defense of his father.?@ There were some comments from the Australian contingent condemming it as "sickening', or not a genuine Buddhist story. As a slightly off topic point I would be interested to know if there is any comments about abortion in Australia. Especially that it is legal and that thousands of expectant mothers have them every year. It might help to put perspective on any distress the chidren of Vessantara suffered in those few days. With regard to your comments about the bombadier, Sukinder might remember I brought this up with Khun Sujin when we were having a rather exquisite lunch in the Marriot Riverside. She asked were their people below whe the bombs were being dropped, it was not just a training exercise? If it was only training exercise then of course no kamma, but if people were dying ..She said that although the bombadier mightn't be thinking of klling there was still intention to push the button that dropped the bomb....we talked about the hypothetical bombing captain who really never thinks for second that dropping bombs on factories and populated areas is going to kill someone. But does such a man exist? Clearly it is less akusala when someone is only doing there duty as a soldier - and not relishing any combat - compared with a soldier who is excited by the chance to inflict pain and death. The cittas are much more coarse and ugly in the second case. Robert #69434 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika lbidd2 Hi RobM, Thanks for your reply but it doesn't quite answer my question: what is the term for an object of consciousness that arises because of kamma? The correct term obviously isn't 'kamma vipaka'. 'Kamma produced' (nipphanna) or 'kamma originated' (samu.t.thaana) are used with certain kinds of rupa but that seems to refer to the origin of the rupa, not necessarily to the principal condition for that rupa becoming an object of consciousness. [Nina recently clarified this.] Maybe there isn't a specific term. As to the difference between a volitional consciousness and a remembered volitional consciousness, why doesn't a remembered volitional consciousness (javana citta) have any kammic power? And why doesn't a volitional consciousness that is repeated countless times as an object of certain bhavanga cittas not have any kammic power? And finally, does the bhavanga citta have a power to shape the general theme or personality of a life continuum? Is it like DNA? Larry #69435 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:09 pm Subject: Re: All about formless planes rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Connie, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie > wrote: > > > > Thanks for the fire-hose, RobM! > > I'm glad it seems you might have a bit of "free time"! > > Not to ignore the rest, but I was surprised to read that << while in > the > > formless plane, a uninstructed worldling can attain a change-of- > lineage > > and become a sotapanna. Of course, once a sotapanna, the being can > enjoy > > the associated fruit citta. >> Can you say more about how this could > > happen without rupa? I guess s/he would already have had to attain > to > > some levels of insight... ?? > > ===== > > Your entry ticket into the formless planes is having achieved an > arupajhana. If this is what you mean by "some levels of insight...", > then yes, it is a prerequisite. > > Achieving stages of sainthood is purely a mental phenomena. I am > curious as to why you would consider it necessary to have a body to do > so. Please help me to understand better. > >======= Dear Rob and Connie, I would like to read the full context of this passage. In arupa brahma worlds if one is putthujana there can be no nama rupa parichedda nanaa, because no sense doors.. Robert #69436 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:42 pm Subject: Re: All about formless planes nichiconn Hi RobM :) ... << while in the formless plane, a uninstructed worldling can attain a change-of-lineage and become a sotapanna. Of course, once a sotapanna, the being can enjoy the associated fruit citta. >> Can you say more about how this could happen without rupa? I guess s/he would already have had to attain to some levels of insight... ?? ===== Your entry ticket into the formless planes is having achieved an arupajhana. If this is what you mean by "some levels of insight...", then yes, it is a prerequisite. Achieving stages of sainthood is purely a mental phenomena. I am curious as to why you would consider it necessary to have a body to do so. Please help me to understand better. ======= c: Not that the attainer has to have a body; I accept that, given that the being is already a learner. And I don't mean the attainment of jhaana as some level of insight; how is a being with no way to experience rupa going to develop any understanding of rupa or the difference between nama and rupa? That's where I'm stuck. Unless they can do it from memory? Which would make me wonder what the big deal is about "understanding the present reality" in this lifetime. Does that make my problem any clearer for you? I hope... thanks, connie #69437 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi RobM, > > Thanks for your reply but it doesn't quite answer my question: what is > the term for an object of consciousness that arises because of kamma? > The correct term obviously isn't 'kamma vipaka'. 'Kamma produced' > (nipphanna) or 'kamma originated' (samu.t.thaana) are used with certain > kinds of rupa but that seems to refer to the origin of the rupa, not > necessarily to the principal condition for that rupa becoming an object > of consciousness. [Nina recently clarified this.] Maybe there isn't a > specific term. > ====== Reading the Pali version of the section quoted, there term appears to be, "ta.mkammakara.nakaale". You will somebody more skilled in Pali than I to provide an etymology. ===== > > As to the difference between a volitional consciousness and a remembered > volitional consciousness, why doesn't a remembered volitional > consciousness (javana citta) have any kammic power? > ===== Kamma implies volition (centana). An idea (object of a mental state) does not have volition but the mental state which takes the idea as object does experience volition. ===== > And why doesn't a > volitional consciousness that is repeated countless times as an object > of certain bhavanga cittas not have any kammic power? ===== The bhavanga is a vipaka (resultant) mental state. Vipaka mental states do not create new kamma, they are the result of old kamma. ===== > > And finally, does > the bhavanga citta have a power to shape the general theme or > personality of a life continuum? Is it like DNA? ===== Within a specific plane of existence, there are a limited number of options for bhavanga cittas. For example, all beings in the four woeful states (hell, animal, ghost, asura) have the same bhavanga. Congenitally disabled people/gods (deaf, blind, etc.) have a distinct bhavanga. Humans who are not congenitally disabled and earth-bound devas are classed as having "two roots" or "three roots". Those with two roots cannot achieve jhana or sainthood in that existence. Within each of these classifications (two-roots or three-roots) there are four options: - Bhavanga with or without pleasant feeling - Bhavanga which is prompted or not prompted I remember hearing/reading (but I cannot remember the source) that beings whose bhavanga have pleasant feeling are more jolly than beings whose bhavanga have indifferent feeling and that beings whose bhavanga is prompted are more passive than beings whose bhavanga is unprompted. The idea of a general theme of a personality (carita) is covered in some depth in the Visuddhimagga but I don't think that there is any linkage to the type of bhavanga (I don't have my Visuddhimagga with me at the moment). Some schools of Buddhism posit the existence of an ayuhana-vinnana (storehouse of consciousness) which guides the general theme of a personality but the Theravadins reject this idea as coming too close to the idea of a soul. My view is that accumulations play a huge role in determining the general theme of a personality through natural decisive support condition. Larry, I hope that I answered your questions. Metta, Rob :-) #69438 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:04 am Subject: Daana Corner (16) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi had compiled and edited the following essays in a document titled “Dana: The Practice of Giving.” (1) The Practice of Giving (Susan Elbaum Jootla) (2) Giving in the Pali Canon (Lily de Silva) (3) Giving from the Heart (M. O'C. Walshe) (4) Generosity: The Inward Dimension (Nina van Gorkom) (5) The Perfection of Giving (Acariya Dhammapala) We have just finished “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla, and we have four more to read. We will now start with “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva is Professor of Pali and Buddhist Studies at the University of Peradeniya in Sri Lanka. A regular contributor to Buddhist scholarly and popular journals, she is also the editor of the subcommentary to he Digha Nikaya, published by the Pali Text Society of London. ------------------------------ Lily de Silva’s essay starts with the following paragraph: Dana, giving, is extolled in the Pali canon as a great virtue. It is, in fact, the beginning of the path to liberation. When the Buddha preaches to a newcomer he starts his graduated sermon with an exposition on the virtues of giving (danakatha, Vin.i,15,18). Of the three bases for the performance of meritorious deeds (punnakiriyavatthu), giving is the first, the other two being virtue and mental culture (A.iv,241). It is also the first of the ten paramita perfected by a Buddha. Therefore, on the march towards liberation as an arahant or a Buddha, one initially has to practice dana. ---------------------------- Han: From this point on, she wrote it under the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* We will take them up one by one. Han #69439 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (14) sarahprocter... Dear All, (Kelvin & Ven Dhammanando***) The Vessantara Jataka is always controversial! In the Cariyaapi.taka (part of the Khuddaka-Nikaaya, Sutta-pi.taka), we read the Buddha as saying: "Neither child was disagreeable to me, the Lady Maddi was not disagreeable. Omniscience was dear to me, therefore I gave away those who were dear' (1.9). Simply put, without the events as told in the Vessantara Jataka, there would have been no omniscience, no perfection of the highest paramis, no Buddha, no teachings, no chance to hear the dhamma today! In the commentary to the Cariyapitaka, under "The Meaning of the Word 'Tathaagata' " (transl. by B.Bodhi in "The Discourse on The All-Embracing Views"), we read about why the Exalted One is called the Tathagata because he has "thus-come": "Because he has come in the same way that the previous perfectly enlightened Buddhas came, engaged in exertion for the welfare of the whole world - that is, the Exalted Vipassii, Sikhii, Vessabhuu, Kakusandha, Ko.naagamana, and Kassapa.[note: These are the six Buddhas mentioned in the most ancient canonical texts as the immediate predecessors of the Buddha Gotama. See Mahaapadaana Sutta, D 14]. "What is meant? Our Exalted One (the Buddha Gotama) has come through the very same aspiration (abhinthaara) that these Exalted Ones came through. Or just as the Exalted Vipassii.....the Exalted Kassapa came after they had fulfilled the fully thirty paramiis - i.e. the ten basic, ten intermediate, and ten ultimate paaramiis of giving, virtue, renunciation, wisdom, energy, patience, truthfulness, determination, loving-kindness, and equanimity; *made the five great relinquishings - i.e. the relinquishing of limbs, eyes, wealth, kingdom, and children and wife*; fulfilled the preliminary effort, the preliminary conduct, the preaching of the Dhamma, conduct for the good of kinsmen, etc.; and reached the summit in conduct developing intelligence - exactly thus has our Exalted One come (tathaa amhaakam pi Bhagavaa aagato)....." .... S: The sub-commnetary then elaborates on the following: *made the five great relinquishings - i.e. the relinquishing of limbs, eyes, wealth, kingdom, and children and wife*: "Though the five great relinquishings belong to the perfection of giving, they are mentioned separately in order to show that they are distinct forms of relinquishing, that they are extremely difficult to practice [and that they are distinct requisites for enlightenment]. For the same reason, the relinquishing of the eyes is mentioned separately from the relinquishing of the limbs. And though they all involve possessions, the relinquishing of children and wife is mentioned separately from the relinquishing of wealth and kingdom." ..... S: Perhaps, with enough parami developed, we would be prepared to be relinquished too to help a bodhisatta attain omniscience! Metta, Sarah *** an interesting note here on pubbayoga ('preliminary effort') which may relate to our previous discussions: " 'The preliminary effort" ' (pubbayoga) is the achievement of the meditative attainments and the (five) abhi~n~naas, together with the preliminary portion of practice for these consisting in the duties of advancing and retreating (to and from the village for alms)." ===================== #69440 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:34 pm Subject: All Phenomena are just Mental States! bhikkhu5 Friends: Awareness of Phenomena just as Mental States! The Blessed Buddha said about Contemplation of Mental Objects: How does one reflect on Phenomena just as Mental States? The 5 Hindrances: One notes & knows when mind is dominated by sense-desire, anger, lethargy & laziness, restlessness & regret, & doubt and uncertainty! One notes & knows when mind is released from sense-desire, anger, lethargy & laziness, restlessness & regret, & doubt and uncertainty! One understands how there is emergence of sense-desire, anger, lethargy & laziness, restlessness & regret, & doubt and uncertainty. One understands how there is overcoming of sense-desire, anger, lethargy & laziness, restlessness & regret, & doubt and uncertainty. One understands how there is elimination of sense-desire, anger, lethargy & laziness, restlessness & regret, & doubt and uncertainty. The 5 Clusters of Clinging: One understands such is form, feeling, perception, construction, and consciousness. One understands such is the causes of origin of form, feeling, perception, construction, and consciousness. One understands such is the causes of ceasing of form, feeling, perception, construction, and consciousness.... The 6 Sense Sources: One notes & understands such is the eye and the forms and the consequent obsessive sense-addiction arising dependent on both. One notes & understands such is the ear and the sounds, the nose and the smells, the tongue and the flavours, the body and touches, the mind & the thoughts & the consequent obsessive & compulsive sense-addiction there arise dependent on both. The 7 Links to Awakening: One notes & knows when mind contains awareness, investigation, energy, joy, tranquillity, concentration, and equanimity. One notes & knows when mind is without awareness, investigation, energy, joy, tranquillity, concentration, and equanimity. One understands how there is arising of awareness, investigation, energy, joy, tranquillity, concentration, and equanimity. One understands how there is complete fulfilment of awareness, investigation, energy, joy, tranquillity, concentration & equanimity. The 4 Noble Truths: One notes, understands, and knows as it actually is: This is Suffering! This is the Cause of Suffering! This is the End of Suffering! This is the Way to End Suffering! Thus one lives while considering own internal mental states, or the external mental states of others, or the mental states of both. One notices how any new mental state arises, & how it passes away. Or one is simply aware: There is this mental state now; just enough for mindful & clear comprehension of the present mental state. Caused by this acute aware presence and clear comprehension of any current momentary mental state, one comes to live independent, unattached, and not clinging to anything in this world whatsoever.... Thus does one dwell immersed in contemplation of the mental states! Remembered easily after some training by this Key: 5-5-6-7-4 Source Text (extract): Majjhima Nikaya 10: Satipatthana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html The 5 Hindrances: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_5_Mental_Hindrances.htm The 5 Clusters of Clinging: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_are_the_5_Clusters_of_Clinging.htm The 6 Sense Sources: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/a/aayatana.htm The 7 Links to Awakening: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_7_Links_to_Awakening.htm The 4 Noble Truths: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_4_Noble_Truths.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69441 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika gazita2002 dear RobM and Larry, thanks for this Rob - very interesting - I have been following this thread and I am a little puzzled about how it comes about that the javana cittas just before cuticitta have this 'sign of past kamma' as object. Are these javana cittas different from other javana cittas? Is there some 'rule' that states that this kamma-sign thingie must arise just before cuti citta? I'm having some difficulty wording this question because it seems like 'an odd one out'. Can javana cittas thro out one lifespan have this sign of kamma or is it only that one particular set of javanas? patience, courage and good cheer, azita #69442 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:15 am Subject: Arupa Spheres- Rob M. buddhatrue Hi Rob M., Good to see that you have time to post lately. I have a question for you I have always wondered about but have never seen the answer. It is said that those who achieve the arupa jhanas are reborn into the arupa spheres. Now, I assume that this means the person, even if not in jhana at the moment of death, is going to be reborn into an arupa sphere. It is my understanding that the last consciousness is what determines the next rebirth, so there must be something unique about that person's last consciousness. What is it that makes it guaranteed the person will be reborn in the arupa sphere? Metta, James #69443 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika robmoult Hi Larry, A correction to the Pali term below... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Some schools of Buddhism posit the existence of an ayuhana-vinnana > (storehouse of consciousness) which guides the general theme of a > personality but the Theravadins reject this idea as coming too close > to the idea of a soul. ===== The correct term is alaya-vinnana (though it comes from the Sanskrit, so it is ususally alaya-vij"nana). Sorry for any confusion... Metta, Rob M :-) #69444 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:33 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner (14) gazita2002 Hello friends, today while sitting at a table and watching/feeling a mosquito biting me or rather it had bitten me already and was back for more! I thought of the Buddha and his generosity in giving himself to the hungry tiger, however I realised that all I felt was some anger towards the mozzie and no generosity at all. It was hurting ME and I flicked it away, got up and put on some insect repellant. I cant imagine ever being that generous, but I also cant imagine 'knowing' a citta when it arises and when it falls away. I trust that some future time there may be enuff wisdom to know and then there may be enuff generosity to give away 'my' life. Until then...... Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #69445 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! sarahprocter... HI Howard (& Herman), --- upasaka@... wrote: >S: 3. When it is conscious of consciousness, such as seeing consciousness, > it > is not conscious of visible object or any other object at the same time. > -------------------------------- > Howard: > With regard to item #3: Where is the consciousness that is the > object, e.g., a seeing consciousness > at the time it is the object of consciousness? The only possible answer > is that it cannot exist! > And in that case, what does it mean for there to be a consciousness of > "it"? .... S: I think that whether we say it is the present object (existing) or that it is the characterisitic of the citta which has just fallen away doesn't really matter. What's important (from a phenomenological pov as well, I'd have thought) is that it can be known, it can be the object of awareness at that moment, i.e. at this very moment, when it appears! When there is awareness of seeing consciousness or any other citta, the awareness is just aware of its characteristic then and there. Neither it, the wisdom or any other wholesome mental factors care in the slightest where it is exactly at that instant of appearing or being known! It's only thinking about it now which cares. ... >Please > don't gloss over this by saying "It has just fallen away," for that is > not a real answer. The situation > seems to be that of a consciousness of a nonexisting consciousness. Now, > this is a real problem, Sarah! .... S: Again, it's not a problem for sati or panna. It's only a problem if we think it's a problem! I understand the difficulty, but I think like the discussions on conditioned dhammas vs determinism etc, the problems really do just disappear when characteristics of dhammas are known, including thinking as just another dhamma. I know this won't be very satisfactory, but I've tried to give a slightly different angle to see if it helps. Metta, Sarah ========== #69446 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:26 am Subject: Re: Theravada groups in Germany moellerdieter Hi Sarah (and all), you wrote : 'Dieter, thanks for your assistance. When I saw Renbin's message, I really wondered whether anyone would have any suggestion. I believe you posted a long time back. Nice to see you again. Pls help us assist any other new members or chip in on any threads! I hope it's getting warmer in Hamburg now. A friend of mine moved there a few months ago and found it very cold after Hong Kong!' It is getting warmer in Hamburg ..yesterday a beautiful sunny day around 16° and today it looks likewise . B.T.W. the weather people told us that is has been the mildest winter since temperatures were noticed.. difficult to neglect the issue of climate change , isn't it? Thanks for your wellcome and I like to use the opportunity to say hello to the members who may remember me from other lists. Actually I joined DSG long time ago , but with the many messages and being a bit slow with my postings , I usually missed the oportunity to 'chip in' time... however will try in future ;-) Finally a suggestion for Renbin: Nyantiloka's Buddhist dictionary is available online in both English and German, hence there is good bridge to overcome the language barrier and finding an additional support for studies of the language... with Metta Dieter #69447 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner & Vessantara panha sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Herman), --- han tun wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Thank you very much. > Based on the link you have kindly provided, I found > the specific panha in the following link: > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3606.htm > > I will print it and study it carefully. As it is a > lengthy one, it will take me some time. ... S: Actually, posting this in short extracts would be an interesting sub-series in the Daana Corner if either you or anyone else feels inclined to post them for further study and discussion... Metta, Sarah ======== #69448 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theravada groups in Germany sarahprocter... Hi Dieter & Renbin --- Dieter Möller wrote: > Actually I joined DSG long time ago , but with the many messages and > being a bit slow with my postings , I usually missed the oportunity to > 'chip in' time... however will try in future ;-) .... S: ;-) I think we all understand this. Jon and I are often very slow when 'chipping in'.....Never mind, how late it is! .... > > Finally a suggestion for Renbin: Nyantiloka's Buddhist dictionary is > available online in both English and German, hence there is good bridge > to overcome the language barrier and finding an additional support for > studies of the language... ... S: That's a good idea! It could be taken to any meetings too. Also, I believe the German Visuddhimagga is on-line and is very good with direct links to the suttas in question. If Renbin has the English Visuddhimagga, they could be compared perhaps....(Dieter would know more about all of this, I'm sure). I'm sure the same could be done with other books like any of Nyanaponika's, for example. Nina's Abhidhamma in Daily Life has been translated into German, but I don't know if it's on-line. It could then be compared also. You might like to check with here on return. She may have copies. A little warming (even if it's the 'global' type) is probably rather welcome in Germany in winter! Metta, Sarah ====== #69449 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:36 am Subject: Welcome Dieter .. was (Re: Theravada groups in Germany) christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > It is getting warmer in Hamburg ..yesterday a beautiful sunny day around 16° and today it looks likewise . B.T.W. the weather people told us that is has been the mildest winter since temperatures were noticed.. difficult to neglect the issue of climate change , isn't it? > > Thanks for your wellcome and I like to use the opportunity to say hello to the members who may remember me from other lists. > Actually I joined DSG long time ago , but with the many messages and being a bit slow with my postings , I usually missed the oportunity to 'chip in' time... however will try in future ;-) Hello Dieter, It's surprising just who is 'lurking' here and there. :-) Welcome and congratulations on your "going public". :-) Please send some of that 16C over here ~ it was 37C and high humidity in Brisbane yesterday ... and the dams for a couple of million people at only 21% of their capacity. Level 5 water restrictions in place. "Please explain!" requests being issued for high water usage. I'm really glad that I'm on tank water. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #69450 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:28 am Subject: Re: Request for help with Pali pronunciation dhammanando_... Hi Jon, > If anyone has managed to download the sound files referred to be Ven > Dhammanando in his message to RobK below, I'd be grateful if they > could send me a copy, as I'm not able to open them. I too don't know how to download them. You might, however, tell your friend that there are sound files of Pali c and j, along with a full phonetic description, on these two Wikipedia pages: C http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal_plosive J http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palatal_plosive If you click on the help button near each sound file you will be provided with info on the software needed to play them. And it seems I was mistaken in thinking that Turkish and Black British English were the only European languages with both sounds; they are also found in Albanian, Auvergnat, Czech, Greek, Hungarian, Latvian, Limousin, and Macedonian. Best wishes, Dhammanando #69451 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:30 am Subject: Suttas on appamada ( was[dsg] Re: Daana Corner (10) ) philofillet Hello Han and all Sorry I haven't had time to participate more. > This has also relevance to the sutta that you > mentioned about the Buddha giving advice to Rahula. > And you are right. It is MN 61 Ambalatthika-rahulovada > Sutta. > > MN 61 Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta: Instructions to > Rahula at Mango Stone > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html > > > Some excerpts: > > "What do you think, Rahula: What is a mirror for?" > "For reflection, sir." > "In the same way, Rahula, bodily actions, verbal > actions, & mental actions are to be done with repeated > reflection. I have found 4 or 5 suttas I called "mirror suttas" - I'm afraid I don't have time to quote them, but the common feature in all of them is that one looks into one's tendencies in bodily actions, verbal actions and mental actions, and one makes a judgement, and then one moves close to acting in a wholesome way. Always, this word "repeated" is used, or words like "unremitting", "often" etc. It is really impossible to understand these suttas in the light of an approach to Dhamma that places faith in rare moments of wholesomeness. Han, I think you are not an advocate of that approach to Dhamma, so there is no need to tell you this, and those who are advocates won't hear the message - these clearcut suttas are interpreted in a way that makes them fit Acharn Sujin's teaching. I don't know how "repeated" and "unremitting" can possibly mean anything other that "repeated" and "unremitting", but nevermind. > Then the Buddha instructed how to reflect whenever > Rahula wants to do a bodily action, while doing a > bodily action, and having done a bodily action. The > Buddha gave the same instruction with regard to verbal > action and mental action. Finally, the Buddha said: > > "Thus, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will > purify my bodily actions through repeated reflection. > I will purify my verbal actions through repeated > reflection. I will purify my mental actions through > repeated reflection.' That's how you should train > yourself." Also, the Buddha says that if there has been a transgression of bodily action or speech, one should confess it to a trusted Dhamma friend, and vow earnestly to mend the bad habit. I think you are the kind of person I would like to share any transgressions with, but I won't in this forum because the Acharn Sujin approach to guarding the sense doors and the subsequent sila is incorrect (this progressions is not recongnized) and fails to provide support and encouragement re sila. (It's very nice for panna, this forum.) > -------------------- > In both the suttas, the essential thing is appamada, > bearing in mind your warning that we cannot become > "established" in appamada just by deciding to be. > > You are lucky to have heard Sayadaw U Silananda (or > other Sayadaws?) speak on it. I have cassette tapes by > other Sayadaws such as Mahasi Sayadaw, Mogok Sayadaw, > Mingun Sayadaw U Vicittasarabhivamsa, Ashin > Janakabhivamsa., but not by Sayadaw U Silananda. Han, you do know that there are many websites that have these talks in Myanmar language, don't you? IIf not, I will provide links next time. Now I must run! Metta, Phil > #69452 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:34 am Subject: Request for post# and sutta ref philofillet Hi Jon (or Sarah or all) Sorry for the trouble, but would you be able to guide me to the post of yours I am due to respond to? If you recall it... Also, could anyone point me to the sutta that encourages us to reflect on any blemish we have that we would not want to have if we wer to die tonight, or something like that. Very strong on the samvega... Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil #69453 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Request for post# and sutta ref jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: > Hi Jon (or Sarah or all) > > Sorry for the trouble, but would you be able to guide me to the post > of yours I am due to respond to? If you recall it... > Try this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/68211 No need to rush, though ;-)) Jon #69454 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:32 am Subject: Re: Suttas on appamada ( was[dsg] Re: Daana Corner (10) ) hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your kind note. Phil: I have found 4 or 5 suttas I called "mirror suttas" - I'm afraid I don't have time to quote them, but the common feature in all of them is that one looks into one's tendencies in bodily actions, verbal actions and mental actions, and one makes a judgement, and then one moves close to acting in a wholesome way. Always, this word "repeated" is used, or words like "unremitting" , "often" etc. It is really impossible to understand these suttas in the light of an approach to Dhamma that places faith in rare moments of wholesomeness. Han, I think you are not an advocate of that approach to Dhamma, so there is no need to tell you this, and those who are advocates won't hear the message - these clearcut suttas are interpreted in a way that makes them fit Acharn Sujin's teaching. I don't know how "repeated" and "unremitting" can possibly mean anything other that "repeated" and "unremitting" , but nevermind. Han: When you have time (it is not urgent) I would very much like to study those “mirror suttas.” If you just give me the sutta numbers or their titles I can search for them myself. ------------------------------ Phil: Also, the Buddha says that if there has been a transgression of bodily action or speech, one should confess it to a trusted Dhamma friend, and vow earnestly to mend the bad habit. I think you are the kind of person I would like to share any transgressions with, but I won't in this forum because the Acharn Sujin approach to guarding the sense doors and the subsequent sila is incorrect (this progressions is not recongnized) and fails to provide support and encouragement re sila. (It's very nice for panna, this forum.) Han: I will be honoured if you share any transgressions with me by direct e-mail. I may also have my transgressions to share with you. ------------------------------ Han: You are lucky to have heard Sayadaw U Silananda (or other Sayadaws?) speak on it. I have cassette tapes by other Sayadaws such as Mahasi Sayadaw, Mogok Sayadaw, Mingun Sayadaw U Vicittasarabhivamsa , Ashin Janakabhivamsa, but not by Sayadaw U Silananda. Phil: Han, you do know that there are many websites that have these talks in Myanmar language, don't you? If not, I will provide links next time. Han: I would be most grateful to have those links when you have time to provide. Respectfully, Han #69455 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner & Vessantara panha hantun1 Dear Sarah, I agree with you that the Vessantara panha would be an interesting sub-series. But I think I would rather not post it. You have an English saying: “once bitten, twice shy.” In Burmese, we say that a bird once hit by a pellet (and survived) is afraid even to look at a catapult. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han (& Herman), > > S: Actually, posting this in short extracts would be > an interesting > sub-series in the Daana Corner if either you or > anyone else feels inclined > to post them for further study and discussion... > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > #69456 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (43) upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 3/11/07 9:02:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: > Actually, that's an idea raised at one time by Amara (if you > remember > her), and I thought it was an interesting one. :-) > ===== > Yes and yes... and yes again! Actually, it didn't impress me all that > much at the time... 'atlas shrugged' ;) ------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) ------------------------------------ but for some reason (or none) it > > just came back to me when I was reading about how the different elements > 'support' each other. > > You're back home? ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, thanks. We returned late Thursday night. ------------------------------------- > > Another friend's grand-daughter, Serenity, is a "Miss July" (when she > turns 8) on a Down's Syndrome Awareness Outreach calendar for this year. > Pretty cool, I think. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Very nice. A sweet and fitting name, Serenity, BTW. -------------------------------------- > > peace, > connie > > ===================== With metta, Howard #69457 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:59 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (44) nichiconn Dear Friends, part 1 of 3, Sakulaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa; The commentary on the verses of Therii Sakulaa: Agaarasmi.m vasantiiti-aadikaa sakulaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Aya.m kira padumuttarassa bhagavato kaale ha.msavatiinagare aanandassa ra~n~no dhiitaa hutvaa nibbattaa, satthu vemaatikabhaginii nandaati naamena. Saa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa ekadivasa.m satthu santike dhamma.m su.nantii satthaaraa eka.m bhikkhuni.m dibbacakkhukaana.m agga.t.thaane .thapenta.m disvaa ussaahajaataa adhikaarakamma.m katvaa sayampi ta.m .thaanantara.m patthentii pa.nidhaanamakaasi. Saa tattha yaavajiiva.m bahu.m u.laara.m kusalakamma.m katvaa devaloke nibbattitvaa aparaapara.m sugatiisuyeva sa.msarantii The verses beginning Living in a house are Therii Sakulaa's. It is said she was bron as the daughter of King Aananda in the town of Ha.msavati at the time of the Blessed One Padumuttara. She was the Teacher's stepsister, and her name was Nandaa. When she came of age, she heard the Doctrine in the presence of the Teacher one day. Seeing the Teacher place a bhikkhunii in the foremost position of those with the divine eye, she became full of energy and performed a meritorious act. Then she made an aspiration, wishing for that position for herself. Throughout her life there, she performed many excellent good action[s]. She was born in a deva world again and again, journeying on in only happy existences. kassapassa bhagavato kaale braahma.nakule nibbattitvaa paribbaajakapabbajja.m pabbajitvaa ekacaarinii vicarantii ekadivasa.m telabhikkhaaya aahi.n.ditvaa tela.m labhitvaa tena telena satthu cetiye sabbaratti.m diipapuuja.m akaasi. Saa tato cutaa taavati.mse nibbattitvaa suvisuddhadibbacakkhukaa hutvaa eka.m buddhantara.m devesuyeva sa.msaritvaa At the time of the Blessed One Kassapa, she was born in a brahman family. And she went forth, ordaining as a wanderer. Wandering all alone, one day, she roamed about for oil as alms. Having received oil, she made an offering of lamps all night long at the shrine for the Teacher with that oil. Then when she died, she was born in the Taavati.msa realm, becoming one whose divine eye was very clear. During one interval between Buddhas, she journeyed on only among the devas. imasmi.m buddhuppaade saavatthiya.m braahma.nakule nibbatti. Sakulaatissaa naama.m ahosi. Saa vi~n~nuta.m pattaa satthu jetavanapa.tiggaha.ne pa.tiladdhasaddhaa upaasikaa hutvaa aparabhaage a~n~natarassa khii.naasavattherassa santike dhamma.m sutvaa sa~njaatasa.mvegaa pabbajitvaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa gha.tentii vaayamantii na cirasseva arahatta.m paapu.ni. In this Buddha era, she was born in a brahman family in Saavatthi. She was named Sakulaa. When she came of age, she gained faith when the Teacher accepted the Jeta Grove, and she became a lay follower. Afterwards, she heard the Doctrine from a certain thera who had destroyed all the taints. A profound stirring arose in her, and she went forth. She established insight united with making effort, and after a very short time, she attained Arahatship. Mrs RD: when this Buddha was living, she was born a brahminee at Saavatthii, and called Pakulaa. Assisting at the Master's acceptance of the gift of the Jeta Grove, she became a believer; and, later on, convinced by the preaching of an Arahant brother, she grew anxious in mind, entered the Order, strove and struggled for insight, and soon won Arahantship. Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.3.131-165)- "Padumuttaro naama jino, sabbadhammaana paaraguu; ito satasahassamhi, kappe uppajji naayako. "Hitaaya sabbasattaana.m, sukhaaya vadata.m varo; atthaaya purisaaja~n~no, pa.tipanno sadevake. "Yasaggapatto sirimaa, kittiva.n.nagato jino; puujito sabbalokassa, disaa sabbaasu vissuto. "Utti.n.navicikiccho so, viitivattakatha.mkatho; sampu.n.namanasa"nkappo, patto sambodhimuttama.m. "Anuppannassa maggassa, uppaadetaa naruttamo; anakkhaata~nca akkhaasi, asa~njaata~nca sa~njanii. As it is said in the Apadaana: One hundred thousand aeons ago, the Conqueror and Leader named Padumuttara, who reached the far shore of all phenomena, was born. For the benefit and happiness of all beings, he was the Best of Speakers. He was a Thoroughbred of Men. He set out for the goal of [men] and devas. The Conqueror obtained the highest fame with respect to praise, was glorious, honoured by the whole world, renowned in all directions. He has overcome doubt, passed beyond perplexity, fulfilled his mental intention, attained the highest full awakening. That Best of Men caused the path that had not arisen to arise. He taught what had not been taught and produced what had not been produced. "Magga~n~nuu ca maggaviduu, maggakkhaayii naraasabho; maggassa kusalo satthaa, saarathiina.m varuttamo. "Mahaakaaru.niko satthaa, dhamma.m deseti naayako; nimugge kaamapa"nkamhi, samuddharati paa.nine. "Tadaaha.m ha.msavatiya.m, jaataa khattiyanandanaa; suruupaa sadhanaa caapi, dayitaa ca siriimatii. "Aanandassa mahaara~n~no, dhiitaa paramasobhanaa; vemaataa bhaginii caapi, padumuttaranaamino. "Raajaka~n~naahi sahitaa, sabbaabhara.nabhuusitaa; upaagamma mahaaviira.m, assosi.m dhammadesana.m. And he was a Knower of the Path, Skilled in the Path, an Announcer of the Path, a Bull Among Men, the Teacher of the Good Path, the Most Excellent Charioteer. He was of great sympathy, a Teacher who taught the Doctrine, a Leader who lifted up living beings who were sunk in the mud of sensual pleasures. At that time, I was born in Ha.msavati, in a delightful Khattiya [family]. I was very beautiful and wealthy, beloved, and with a splendid mind. I was the daughter of the great King Aananda. I had the greatest beauty, and I was the stepsister of one called Padumuttara. Adorned with all my ornaments, I went together with the other princesses to hear a discourse on the Doctrine from the Great Hero. === to be continued, connie #69458 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:39 am Subject: Re: All about formless planes nichiconn Dear RobK, RobM's post #69361. peace, connie I would like to read the full context of this passage. In arupa brahma worlds if one is putthujana there can be no nama rupa parichedda nanaa, because no sense doors.. #69459 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:56 am Subject: Re: All about formless planes robmoult Hi Rob K and Connie, > > > Not to ignore the rest, but I was surprised to read that << > while in > > the > > > formless plane, a uninstructed worldling can attain a change-of- > > lineage > > > and become a sotapanna. Of course, once a sotapanna, the being > can > > enjoy > > > the associated fruit citta. >> Can you say more about how this > could > > > happen without rupa? I guess s/he would already have had to > attain > > to > > > some levels of insight... ?? > > > > ===== > > > > Your entry ticket into the formless planes is having achieved an > > arupajhana. If this is what you mean by "some levels of > insight...", > > then yes, it is a prerequisite. > > > > Achieving stages of sainthood is purely a mental phenomena. I am > > curious as to why you would consider it necessary to have a body > to do > > so. Please help me to understand better. > > > >======= > Dear Rob and Connie, > I would like to read the full context of this passage. In arupa > brahma worlds if one is putthujana there can be no nama rupa > parichedda nanaa, because no sense doors.. > Robert > ===== As I recall, this was taken from some abhidhamma charts by U Silananda (many of which appear in BB's CMA). I beleive that nama rupa parichedda nanaa falls under "purity of view"; which does not require that every possible nama and rupa be analyzed into characterisitc, function, manifestation and proximate cause. I beleive that "purity of view" implies the *ability* to analyze namas and rupas into characterisitc, function, manifestation and proximate cause. In the arupa planes, where there is no rupa to analyze, if a putthujana has analyzed the dhammas available to him (nama only) and is able to differentiate them according to characterisitc, function, manifestation and proximate cause, then I suspect that the putthujana qualifies to proceed to the next stage of purification. Metta, Rob M :-) #69460 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:14 am Subject: Re: All about formless planes robmoult Hi Connie (and Rob K), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Hi RobM :) > > ... << while in the formless plane, a uninstructed worldling can attain a > change-of-lineage and become a sotapanna. Of course, once a sotapanna, the > being can enjoy the associated fruit citta. >> > > Can you say more about how this could happen without rupa? I guess s/he > would already have had to attain to some levels of insight... ?? > ===== I touched on this subject in my last post to Rob K. All the steps of purification required to become a Sotapanna (move from worldling to learner stage) are quite involved and I have to admit that this is an area of the Abhidhamma that I have not studied carefully. PS: BTW, there is no gender in the brahma realms or above ===== > ===== > Your entry ticket into the formless planes is having achieved an > arupajhana. If this is what you mean by "some levels of insight...", then > yes, it is a prerequisite. > > Achieving stages of sainthood is purely a mental phenomena. I am curious > as to why you would consider it necessary to have a body to do so. Please > help me to understand better. > ======= > c: Not that the attainer has to have a body; I accept that, given that > the being is already a learner. ===== Sorry, the being is not a "learner" (a "learner" is a Sotapanna, Sakadagami or Anagami). The being can also be a worldling (such as we are). ===== > > And I don't mean the attainment of jhaana > as some level of insight; how is a being with no way to experience rupa > going to develop any understanding of rupa or the difference between nama > and rupa? That's where I'm stuck. Unless they can do it from memory? > Which would make me wonder what the big deal is about "understanding the > present reality" in this lifetime. Does that make my problem any clearer > for you? I hope... > ===== As mentioned to Rob K, to progress along the path of purification, it is not necessary that one understands and analyze every single possible dhamma. In fact, this is impossible as, being male, how could I understand the itthi-bhava rupa (that which makes a person female) as it does not exist in me? In my opinion, to progress along the path of purification, one must have the ability to analyze the dhammas available to you (if that be only nama, so be it...), differentiate the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of each dhamma available. This can be taken as the "understanding of the known (nataparinna)" as described in the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta. This is then followed by an understanding of scrutinization (tiranaparinna), an analysis of the three characterisitics of dhammas (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and finally an understanding of abandoning (pahanaparinna) wherein desire and lust are eliminated. Of course, this is a simplified high-level view from the commentary whereas the Abhdihammattasangha gives a lot more detail. Metta, Rob M :-) #69461 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:24 am Subject: Re:Welcome Dieter .. was (Re: Theravada groups in Germany) moellerdieter Hi Christine, always a pleasure to meet you .. ;-) you wrote: It's surprising just who is 'lurking' here and there. :-) Welcome and congratulations on your "going public". :-) thanks for the wellcome and let's see about ' going public' :-) 'Please send some of that 16C over here ~ it was 37C and high humidity in Brisbane yesterday ... and the dams for a couple of million people at only 21% of their capacity. Level 5 water restrictions in place. "Please explain!" requests being issued for high water usage. I'm really glad that I'm on tank water.' done .. the Middle Way applied ;-) reminds me on Bangkok..though fortunately (still) without water restrictions .. The global warming is a 'hot ' political issue here .. CO2 & Co. .. let us hope that the dangerous process can be slowed down by more environmental awareness with Metta Dieter #69462 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika robmoult Hi Azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > dear RobM and Larry, > thanks for this Rob - very interesting - I have been following > this thread and I am a little puzzled about how it comes about that > the javana cittas just before cuticitta have this 'sign of past > kamma' as object. > ===== According to the Abhidhammattasangaha, it is kamma (the kamma which is going to push you into your next life) which causes the arising of the object of the death process. The object can be kamma, sign of kamma or sign of destiny. ===== > > Are these javana cittas different from other javana cittas? Is > there some 'rule' that states that this kamma-sign thingie must > arise just before cuti citta? I'm having some difficulty wording > this question because it seems like 'an odd one out'. Can javana > cittas thro out one lifespan have this sign of kamma or is it only > that one particular set of javanas? > > patience, courage and good cheer, > azita ===== Again, according to the Abhidhammatthasangaha, the javana cittas in the death process are weaker than other javana cittas; they run for only five mind moments rather than the seven mind moments of other javana cittas (it is said that the mind door process just before fainting is also weak and the javanas run for only five mind moments). In any case, according to CMA V.37 (p 233), "the [death] process lacks original kamma productive kammic potency, but acts rather as the channel for the past kamma that has assumed the rebirth- generative function." Azita, I think that I have answered part of your question... please re-ask the part that is still concerning you. Metta, Rob M :-) #69463 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:06 am Subject: Re: Arupa Spheres- Rob M. robmoult Hi James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Rob M., > > Good to see that you have time to post lately. I have a question for > you I have always wondered about but have never seen the answer. It is > said that those who achieve the arupa jhanas are reborn into the arupa > spheres. Now, I assume that this means the person, even if not in > jhana at the moment of death, is going to be reborn into an arupa > sphere. > > It is my understanding that the last consciousness is what determines > the next rebirth, so there must be something unique about that person's > last consciousness. What is it that makes it guaranteed the person > will be reborn in the arupa sphere? > > Metta, > James > ===== At the time of death, the kamma which performs the function of rebirth-linking has a specific order of ripening as follows: 1. Weighty kamma 2. Death-proximate kamma 3. Habitual kamma 4. Reserve kamma An Analogy ========== Suppose that many cattle are kept in a big shed for the night. In the morning the door of the shed is opened to let the cattle go out to the pasture. Now which one will come out first? All the cattle wait to get out as soon as possible. If there is a leader among them whom everyone respects, this one will walk majestically to the door and come out first. This one is like a weighty kamma which is uncontested to bear its result in the next life. Now, if there is no leader, the one nearest the door may come out first. This is similar to the death proximate kamma bearing its fruit in the next life. Because of death proximate kamma, it is good to remind people who are dying of all the good things that they have done. Because of death proximate kamma, it is not good to cry in front of a dying person and tell them how much they will be missed. Sometimes a vigilant one, which has regularly noticed the time when the shed is opened, may walk to the door just before it is opened and come out first when the door is opened. This is like the habitual kamma producing its result in the next life. This is why regular meditation (even without the jhanas) is important - this creates a habit that can help at time of rebirth and help in future existences as well. Sometimes an unexpected frail one, by being pushed by stronger ones, may come out of the shed first. This is similar to the case when an unexpected reserve-kamma has the chance to condition the next life. Weighty Kamma ============= People who do one of the following actions generate weighty unwholesome kamma which guarantees a rebirth in a woeful plane: - Killing of mother - Killing of father - Killing an Arahant - Wounding a Buddha - Maliciously causing a split in the sangha People who acheive jhana generate weighty wholesome kamma which almost guarantees a rebirth in a brahma or formless plane, depending on the jhana achieved. I say "almost guarantees" because if after achieving a jhana, if one performs one of the five henious acts listed above, then one still goes to a woeful plane (the jhana is "wiped out" as a weighty kamma). On the other hand, if one first performs one of the five henious acts, this action will stop you from achieving jhana or sainthood in the same existence (for example, King Ajatasattu could not achieve sainthood even after listending to the Samannaphala Sutta because he had killed his father, King Bimbasara). So how does this work? Performing one of the five henious deeds or achieving jhana leaves a huge impression on the mind. It is literally a "life changing experience" (or a "death fixing experience"). Through natural decisive support condition, this strong past mental state has the ability to condition all subsequent mental states, including the rebirth-linking process. In a similar way, when one experiences Nibbana for the first time (upon achieving the stage of Sotapanna), this experience leaves such a deep impression that it blocks doubt from ever arising in any future mental state (it also blocks any actions which may lead to an unfortunate rebirth). Here is an analogy to explain further. I am on one side of a stream and I want to go to the other side of the stream. I psyche myself up and tell myself, "I know that I can jump the stream". THis is blind faith - there is still a possibility of doubt arising. Now I watch as others jump the stream, I study how they jump the stream, I practice steam-jumping on my side of the steam until the point that I am an Olympic-level steam jumper. Now when I tell myself, "I know that I can jump the stream", it is a reasoned faith but there is still a possibility of doubt. Now I have jumped over the stream. Having jumped over the stream, when I tell myself "I know that I can jump the stream", there is no possibility of doubt, There are no conditions for doubt any more. Doubt just cannot arise in the future because of my "life-changing experience" of jumping the stream. Metta, Rob M :-) #69464 From: "Bill Zenn" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:12 am Subject: head's up bill_zenn I was sent this from another list, but thought I pass it along to all the yahoo groups I'm on. Bill Zenn Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:05 pm (PST) Here's something I just learned today, though it's old news. I'm thinking others may not have heard it either and might like to take advantage of the opt-out. Yahoo is now using something called "Web Beacons" to track Yahoo Group users around the net and see what you're doing and where you are going similar to cookies. Yahoo is recording every website and every group you visit. Take a look at their updated privacy statement: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy About half-way down the page, in the section on cookies, you will see a link that says web beacons. Click on the phrase web beacons. That will bring you to a paragraph entitled "Outside the Yahoo Network." In this section you'll see a little "click here to opt out" link that will let you "opt-out" of their new method of snooping. Once you have clicked that link, you are exempted. Notice the "Success" message on the top of the next page. Be careful because on that page there is a "Cancel Opt-out" button that, if clicked, will *undo** the opt-out. Feel free to forward this to other groups. May all beings be at peace #69465 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:18 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Han and All, Here is the firt extract from: www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3606.htm BOOK IV. CHAPTER 8. DILEMMA THE SEVENTY-FIRST. VESSANTARA'S GIVING. 1. 'Venerable Naagasena, do all the Bodisats give away their wives and children, or was it only Vessantara the king who did so?' 'All of them do so, not Vessantara only.' [275] 'Do they then give them away with their own consent?' 'The wife, O king, was a consenting party. But the children, by reason of their tender age, lamented. Had they thoroughly understood, they too would have approved.' 'A hard thing, Naagasena, was it that the Bodisat carried out, in that he gave away his own children, his only ones, dearly beloved, into slavery to the Brahman. And this second action was harder still, that he bound his own children, his only ones, and dearly beloved, young and tender though they were, with the jungle rope, and then, when he saw them being dragged along by the Brahman,--their hands bruised by the creeper,--yet could look on at the sight. And this third action was even harder still, that when his boy ran back to him, after loosing the bonds by his own exertion, then he bound him again with the jungle rope and again gave him away. And this fourth action was even harder still, that when the children, weeping, cried: "Father dear, this ogre is leading us away to eat us!" he should have appeased them by saying: "Don't be afraid." And this fifth action was even harder still, that when the prince, Gaali, fell weeping at his feet, and besought him, saying: "Be satisfied, father dear, only keep Kanhaaginaa (his little sister). I will go away with the ogre. Let him eat me!"--that even then he would not yield. And this sixth action was even harder still, that when the boy Gaali, lamenting, exclaimed: "Have you a heart of stone then, father, that you can look upon us, miserable, being led away by the ogre into the dense and haunted jungle, and not call us back?"--that he still had no pity. And this seventh action was even harder still, that when his children were thus led away to nameless horrors until they passed gradually to their bitter fate, out of sight--that then his heart did not break, utterly break! What, pray, has the man who seeks to gain merit to do with bringing sorrow on others! Should he not rather give himself away?' === to be continued, connie #69466 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:23 pm Subject: Re: All about formless planes nichiconn Dear RobM, I'm still not convinced, but I appreciate your trying to help. thank you, connie #69467 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:23 pm Subject: Re: All about formless planes robmoult Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Dear RobM, > I'm still not convinced, but I appreciate your trying to help. > thank you, > connie > ===== I view the teachings as a set of concentric rings shaped like a target. - At the core, in the bulls-eye are the Suttas. - A tight ring around the core is the material in the seven books of the Abhidhamma (with the Kathavatthu at the outside of this ring) - The next ring are the commentaries - The following ring is the Abhidhammatthasangaha - The final ring is material by more recent authors The later additions to the Suttas are not necessarily wrong or embellishments, but they can be viewed as non-core teachings. Though non-core teachings may be interesting to discuss, they should not distract us from the important themes contained in the Tipitaka. The Abhidhamma should not be viewed as an "intellectual exercise". The Abhidhamma provides a framework for the understanding of our everyday experience and this understanding will act as a condition for the arising of insight. For example, in the Anupada Sutta (MN 111), the Buddha praised Sàriputta for being able to detect some twenty dhammas occurring together with the jhanas (including the jhana factors) as they arise, persist and disappear. Metta, Rob M :-) #69468 From: "colette" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:45 pm Subject: Re: fishies and snakes ksheri3 Good Day connie, Loved the reply, thanx. I didn't have time right now to read it all, I'm moving to another library, a university outlet, community center, where I can get ten more pages of this paper I'm reading concerning SVABHAVA and SVAHAVATA, ANATMAN and SHUNYATA. These all fit very well with my study on the ALAYAVIJNANA, and it seems I've somehow acquired some material from our Japanese friends in the ZEN aspect. One day I hope to share this Zen passage with the group here, boy, those Japs definately have a little attitude problem with the Chinese/Indian/Buddhism. They're taking apart the Hinayanas and the different Mahayanas. Yes, connie, I remember quite well, the viel you threw upon my countenance concerning the Sautrantikas or was it the Svatantrikas -- but we've got time for the Madhyamika sects later. I'll read the rest when I get there. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Good Afternoon, Colette, > > Colette: I have my own pet-pieves about the trawling industry but that's > another story. You give mystical thought, and I like the fragrance I smell > and am attracted to, huh. ;-) > > Connie: LOL! "All the young girls love Alice." Seems we've done a bit > of swimming around the same waters, eh? Anyway, still in the basement > reading Path of Purity on the "Great Elements" and thought you might get > an appreciative kick out of the poem following after the deceitfulness of > the "seductive transformations of their external appearance": <....> #69469 From: "colette" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:57 pm Subject: Re: All about formless planes ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > Dear RobK, > RobM's post #69361. > peace, > connie > > > I would like to read the full context of this passage. In arupa > brahma worlds if one is putthujana there can be no nama rupa > parichedda nanaa, because no sense doors.. As you can see I've reached my next step in RE-production. Have you, connie, ever meditated on this concept of PRODUCTION and then RE- PRODUCTION. Since in todays society of gentrification the total objective is to RE-produce something that is latent, or past, and not extent or dynamic? this prefix called RE is very applicable to the operation of maintaining a mass of flesh, individuals that are not yet programmed to serve the thought processes of the "individual" (we can and I most certainly do, associate this thought process of a SINGULARITY, as being that of a "god" soon we'll have the micro- managers that, as the Hydra's heads, fall by the wayside, but that is another time. <...> connie, I see something, if you travel in the worlds of hermetics then maybe you see it too. We shall find out now won't we? toodles, colette > #69470 From: "colette" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:27 pm Subject: "Shoot it for me" by UFO from Love Drive ksheri3 Hi group, Things happen, we in buddhism are of the charade that if that if is to another perons THEN it is not to ouself. Here we find this CONFLICT between Buddhism and Hinduism since the INDHU require for their entire system an ATMAN, we can go through every system of Wesrtern Religous Traditon and find this, an atman, a soul, a self, which is EXACTLY what buddhism is attempting to reconcile. I can't go into my usual rants since I've just disvovered this aspect and know that it will play out <....> This is a good time to examine another aspect, divert attention, divert magnetism, divert force, from the sutiuation that I know is growing in a petri dish or maybe that petri dish is another person's mind, or maybe..., however we can view this aspect without disturbing the fungi, or maybe that fungi is a group of people in a fraternal order that possesses the delusion of their existance, etc.. I am building up a very powerful connection here with you Dhammastudy and since you are in Hong Kong I will certainly advise you to speak with me about the problems that will occur through our connection. The Communist Chinese Government is well aware of this aspect. Rmember who you are, where you are, and your environment. <......> I ask that you examine the article: http://www.mrfire.com/article-archives/new-articles/worlds-most- unusual-therapist.html where you may be able to see that this Mahayana schtick of becoming a buddhistva is rather mundane, I'm reserving my Zen friends for a latter date. <....> Every baby needs a bottle: "Some folks say I'm crazy. Crazy as a lune. Cause I get drunk in the mornin'. I get stoned in the after noon." Charlie Daniels Band (CDB) remember that. "If you don't like the way I'm livin', ya just leave this long haired country boy alone." toodles, colette #69471 From: "Larry" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika lbidd2 Hi Rob, R: "Kamma implies volition (centana). An idea (object of a mental state) does not have volition but the mental state which takes the idea as object does experience volition." L: Are you saying a memory of a volitional consciousness is only an idea or that all objects of mental states are ideas? What about mindfulness of a volitional consciousness? I would like to pin down why a volitional consciousness looses its volitional or kammic power when it becomes an object of a consciousness. If you give a gift mindfully does that giving not have any kammic consequences? Certainly the mindfulness would have kammic consequences, but I wonder about the giving. Suppose you are mindfull of a moment of anger that arises now, and then mindful of a moment of anger that happened yesterday. What is the sum total of your kammic debt? What you wrote about bhavanga cittas is interesting. How can they be prompted? What does it mean for a bhavanga citta with 2 roots to have a kamma as object? Would that be like hating hate or loving love or loving hate or hating love? Larry #69472 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:53 pm Subject: Re: Arupa Spheres- Rob M. buddhatrue Hi Rob M., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi James, > > At the time of death, the kamma which performs the function of > rebirth-linking has a specific order of ripening as follows: > 1. Weighty kamma > 2. Death-proximate kamma > 3. Habitual kamma > 4. Reserve kamma A million thanks for your thorough answer! I understand the process much more now. I knew I asked the right person! :-) (I wish you would stick around in this group more. It is so nice to read the proper Dhamma rather than the KS version.) Metta, James #69473 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:55 pm Subject: Rants and Raves ;-))( Re: New Pic!) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Btw, w/r to your little rave in #69093, > > > > James: A rave? I didn't really think it was a rave; I just thought I > > was thinking out loud. But, I guess when Phil does that it is > > rambling and when I do that it is raving?? ;-)) > .... > S: ;-)) > .... > > > > when have Nina, Jon or I compared > > > 'parinibbana to annihilation' > > > > James: Of course none of you use those exact words, but that is in > > essence what you say. If anyone asks you, "What happens to the > > arahant at paranibbana?" Any answer other than: "That is beyond the > > scope of the teaching" is either going to be annihilation or > > eternalism. You, Jon, and Nina tend to describe the experience in > > terms of annihilation- that it is like a candle being blown > > out. "Poof" you're gone!! > .... > S: Well the Buddha did refer to rebirth when there is fuel and not > without, just like for a fire. > > Of course, it's not a question of any person being 'gone', because there > was never a person in the first place. The khandas are the fire and lobha > is the fuel. Realize it or not, what you are promoting here is the wrong concept of annihilation. You don't use that word, but it is annihilation. The problem is that you do not understand the Buddha's use of the metaphor of "fire". As I wrote to TG lately, the 4 Great Elements as taught by the Buddha do not correspond to our modern, scientific concepts of the elements. Sarah, you are using the concept of "fire" in the modern, scientific sense- that fire is the release of energy from a material based on a chemical reaction. When that chemical reaction is over, the fire is gone, extinguished, annihilated- because it never really existed in the first place. So, to you, paranibbana is like a fire going out, in the modern sense. What was there is now no longer there. It is annihilated. Sorry, but that is not the proper teaching. To the Buddha, and his listeners, the element of "fire" was an element that existed quite on its own, within the air element, and didn't come to existence (as visible fire) until there was fuel for the fire to come to existence. So, when there was no fuel for the fire, the fire didn't become annihilated, it just went back to its unattached state. The Buddha used this metaphor for paranibbana because his listeners would understand that paranibbana was like the fire which had gone out- it wasn't annihilated, it just went back to its unattached state. This state is described as unattached consciousness or surfaceless consciousness; but we can't really comprehend such a thing. Most importantly, this metaphor of fire is just a metaphor. If you view the metaphor in the incorrect manner, the teaching becomes lost. Sarah, please, stop implying that paranibbana is annihilation of the five khandas, because it isn't. You are unnecessarily frightening people. > .... > > >Mahayanists tend to describe the > > experience in terms of eternalism: becoming cosmic "Buddha-mind" or > > being reborn in "Pure Land". Either description is inappropriate. > > The experience is beyond the comprehension of our thinking minds. > > Therefore, the only description of the experience of paranibbana > > is "That is beyond the scope of the teaching." > .... > S: Ok. Still, as Nina said, the last citta of the present life is always > cuti-citta (death consciousness), even for an arahant. James: No, this could not possibly be true!! If the Abhidhamma states this, it is quite mistaken. The arahant doesn't experience any type of death consciousness. HELLO!! The Buddha specifically called nibbana the "deathless". He didn't call it the "one more death and then deathless"...it is the "deathless" period, the end. For the arahant, > this is not succeeded by a patisandhi citta (birth consciousness)as usual. James: Of course not because there is no clinging, because there is no death consciousness in the first place! (You might > like to review the chapter on 'Saddha' in 'Cetasikas' to understand how > the texts use the term. James: No thanks. I would rather eat broken glass. ;-)) > .... > > Sarah, why is it that you prefer the > > secondary definition of saddha- which is confidence rather than > > faith? Because `confidence' is dry, unemotional, and passive- the > > earmarks of the sons of KS. > .... > S: When there is confidence there is calm, mindfulness and equanimity too. > If this is what you mean by 'dry, unemotional, and passive', ok:-). James: Sarah, I can see that we are going to disagree on this one too. I don't know why you see everything associated with Buddhism as being calm, mindful, and full of equanimity. Samvega and Saddha are not unemotional states. Does an arahant have either samvega or saddha? No. An arahant doesn't have a sense of urgency because he/she has done what needs to be done, and an arahant doesn't have faith in the teachings because he/she directly knows the teachings. Okay, I know you aren't going to get it- I keep trying and trying. But maybe this post will be of benefit to someone else. > ... > S: ;-) At least you agree that righteous anger and emotional outbursts are > not the 'practice' of saddha (faith/confidence)! James: I'm not sure where this came from, but, yes, I don't think that righteous anger and emotional outbursts are the proper practice of saddha. However, that doesn't mean saddha is dry and unemotional. It contains an element of heart-felt emotion. (And, as far as myself, I can have a lot of anger and emotional outbursts when I see people misrepresenting the Dhamma- but that doesn't mean it is right. I still have work to do.) Metta, James #69474 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:33 pm Subject: (re)productions nichiconn Dear Colette, Colette: connie, I see something, if you travel in the worlds of hermetics then maybe you see it too. Connie: I've just been watching in the cinema of my mind, the venerable Moggallaana tame the Naaga king... narration by Buddhaghosa in the Visuddhimagga's exposition of psychic power. Great story with lots of shape-shifting & all. Colette: As you can see I've reached my next step in RE-production. ... todays society of gentrification .... Connie: And then, a bit after the Naaga king is tamed, we read of the possessor of psychic power that: << He makes not only the few many, but also accomplishes through psychic power whatever he likes such as making a sweet thing not sweet, and a not sweet thing sweet. For instance, the elder Mahaa Anu.la saw a number of monks who, having collected alms and obtained nothing but dry food, had sat down on the river-bank and were eating it. He resolved that the river-water should be turned into butter-cream, and gave a sign to the novices, who took it in cups and gave it to the assembly of monks. All enjoyed the sweet butter-cream. >> I don't know what you see but wish you be safe and that the not sweet becomes sweet for you. It is not, for me, a matter of what outside "society" does, but the thoughts that populate my mind. peace, connie #69475 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:56 am Subject: Daana Corner (17) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “Functions of Giving” Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ Function of Giving Giving is of prime importance in the Buddhist scheme of mental purification because it is the best weapon against greed (lobha), the first of the three unwholesome motivational roots (akusalamula). Greed is wrapt up with egoism and selfishness, since we hold our personalities and our possessions as "I" and "mine". Giving helps make egoism thaw: it is the antidote to cure the illness of egoism and greed. "Overcome the taint of greed and practice giving," exhorts the Devatasamyutta (S.i,18). The Dhammapada admonishes us to conquer miserliness with generosity (jine kadariyam danena, Dhp. 223). It is difficult to exercise this virtue of giving proportionate to the intensity of one's greed and selfishness. As such the Devatasamyutta equates giving to a battle (danan ca yuddhan ca samanam ahu, S.i,20). One has to fight the evil forces of greed before one can make up one's mind to give away something dear and useful to oneself. The Latukikopama Sutta illustrates how a man lacking in spiritual strength finds it hard to give up a thing he has been used to (M.i, 449). A small quail can come to death when it gets entangled even in a useless rotten creeper. Though weak, a rotten creeper is a great bond for the small bird. But even an iron chain is not too big a bond for a strong elephant. Similarly, a poor wretched man of weak character would find it difficult to part with his shabby meager belongings, while a strong-charactered king will even give up a kingdom once convinced of the dangers of greed. Miserliness is not the only hindrance to giving. Carelessness and ignorance of the working of kamma and survival after death are equally valid causes (macchera ca pamada ca evam danam na diyati, S.i,18). If one knows the moral advantages of giving, one will be vigilant to seize opportunities to practice this great virtue. Once the Buddha said that if people only knew the value of giving as he does, they would not take a single meal without sharing their food with others (It.p,18). ------------------------------ “Qualities of the Donor” will be in next post. Han #69476 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:57 am Subject: Re: All about formless planes kelvin_lwin Hi Connie, RobK and RobM, RobM in 69361: It is possible to progress through the path cittas associated with sainthood while in the formless planes. For example, while in the formless plane, a uninstructed worldling can attain a change-of- lineage and become a sotapanna. Of course, once a sotapanna, the being can enjoy the associated fruit citta. Kel: This is wrong as far as I know and part of your difficulities Connie. Sotapanna-magga citta is the only lokuttara citta that doesn't arise in arupa realms. You can already be a sotapanna and be reborn into arupa thus sotapanna-phala citta can arise. Once a learner, they can reach higher stages in arupa, definitely not as a worldling. It's pretty clear on this issue. - Kel #69477 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:09 am Subject: Re: All about formless planes robmoult Hi Kel, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Connie, RobK and RobM, > > RobM in 69361: It is possible to progress through the path cittas > associated with > sainthood while in the formless planes. For example, while in the > formless plane, a uninstructed worldling can attain a change-of- > lineage and become a sotapanna. Of course, once a sotapanna, the > being can enjoy the associated fruit citta. > > Kel: This is wrong as far as I know and part of your difficulities > Connie. Sotapanna-magga citta is the only lokuttara citta that doesn't > arise in arupa realms. You can already be a sotapanna and be reborn > into arupa thus sotapanna-phala citta can arise. Once a learner, they > can reach higher stages in arupa, definitely not as a worldling. It's > pretty clear on this issue. ===== You may be correct, but I am not sure. Unfortunately, I am on the road, and so I am away from most of my texts. Can you provide a source reference? Metta, Rob M :-) #69478 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:13 am Subject: Re: PoP quiz - next question. sarahprocter... Dear All & Connie, Connie has been setting a little PoP quiz off-list which I'm now responding to on-list as others may be able to help if I still can't. First she asked: Question 1: "say, Sarah, you don't happen to have THE PATH OF PURITY, do you? I'm just wondering where the little 1 goes on page 594 since the changes page gives the footnote it's supposed to refer to. or is it already hiding there somewhere and my eyes really aren't working as well as i've been thinking?" .... S: That was a simple one - I just replied that I don't have the PoP in question. Next, she asked: Question2: >C: If you have Itivuttaka, > what's on page 43 that might relate to Path of Purification xvi 38-43? > > Don't ask what edition or anything of Iti. -- I've looked for but > haven't > seen a listing in this book. I glanced thru the Minor Anthology > version, > but nothing jumped out at me. .... S: Now I'm checking texts as I write. First, Path of Purification XV1 38-43: Takes us to the pain of the baby in a mother's womb, the suffering during an abortion, the pain during birth, the pain after birth, the pain during existence, "birth is pain"! "But why elaborate? At any time or anywhere Can there exist a painful state if birth do not precede? Indeed this Sage so great, when he expounded pain, took care First to declare rebirth as pain, the condition needed there." Maybe, lots here relevant to Vessantara? .... Now checking Itivuttaka, p43 1) PTS, transl by Woodward: Meghiya - "a monk is possessed of insight, endowed with the insight that goes on to discern the rise and fall, with the Ariyan penetration which goes on to penetrate the perfect ending of Ill." Oh. that was from the Udana of course....Itivuttaka is well-past p.43 2) BPS, transl by John Ireland same applies - p43 is still the Udana. 3) PTS, transl by Peter Masefield takes us to a page of cryptic footnotes, mostly related to variations in Pali in different editions, connected with "The Euphoria Sutta"(37) and "The Thought Sutta" (38). 4) BPS, transl by John Ireland, but this time just the Itivuttaka. Let's see: 2 suttas: 1) "Faculties" (62) 2) "Time" (63) "Perceiving what can be expressed through concepts, Beings take their stand on what is expressed. Not fully understanding the expressed, They come under the bondage of Death...." Hmm, not sure I've passed the PoP quiz, but it's been fun all the same. Awaiting the next question! Maybe others can meanwhile do better with the first 2 questions. Metta, Sarah ========= #69479 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: All about formless planes sarahprocter... Hi RobM & all, Good to see you and Kel around! >Kel: Sotapanna-magga citta is the only lokuttara citta that > doesn't > > arise in arupa realms. You can already be a sotapanna and be > reborn > > into arupa thus sotapanna-phala citta can arise. Once a learner, > they > > can reach higher stages in arupa, definitely not as a worldling. > It's > > pretty clear on this issue. > > ===== > >RobM: You may be correct, but I am not sure. Unfortunately, I am on the > road, and so I am away from most of my texts. Can you provide a > source reference? ... S: I think Kel has expressed this clearly. For a ref, see CMA 111,21 uner 'Compendium of Bases'. It is referring to cittas which *always* depend on the heart-base (which cittas in the arupa-brahma plane do not). After mentioning that the sense consciousness cittas depend on the sense bases, it says: "But the mind element-namely, the five-door-adverting consciousness and the (two types of) receiving consciousness - occurs in dependent on the heart. Likewise those that remain - namely, the mind-consciousness element comprising the investigating consciousness, ***the first path consciousness***, smiling consciousness, the fine-material-sphere consciousness - occur in dependence on the heart." S: It goes on to say that the remaining classes of consciousness may be either dependent or not on the heart-base. These would include the other path cittas. The Guide note says: "The first path consciousness, the path consciousness of stream-entry, cannot occur in the immaterial realms because it is contingent on hearing the Dhamma, which presupposes the ear faculty." It goes on to say that 42 cittas are included in the 'remaining classes of consciousness" which may or may not be dependent on the heart-base and that these include the other 7 lokuttara cittas. There is one of those charts you like which sets it all out (3.8). The commentary to the Abhidhammatyha Sangaha gives more detail as to why the various cittas cannot arise in the arupa-brahma realm (due to the absence of sense-doors and the functions of investigating and retention etc). "Thus all these 33 consciousnesses (inc. sotapatti-magga) occur exclusively supported by the heart." It also mentions the condition of hearing another's voice for sotapatti magga. As Connie, RobK and others have suggested, clearly distinguishing namas and rupas and understanding their characterisitics when they arise is essential for the development of insight and sotapatti magga. Metta, Sarah ======== #69480 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) sarahprocter... Hi James & all, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Some people in this group see the wisdom of "cold showers"- I don't > see the wisdom in such an approach. Loving-kindness and compassion > are much more powerful and effective than "cold showers". .... S: I generally agree with you, but can there be "compassionate cold showers"? Also, isn't the "cold shower" in the perception (or body-consciousness!) of the listener, I wonder? One person's 'cold' may be another's 'warm':-) Of course, no one but a Buddha would know exactly what the effects of any shower might be. Take the 'Sister' extract you commented on: > Vimalaatheriigaatha ava.n.nanaa / 2. The commentary on the verses of Theri > Vimalaa James: "This is a very nice and worthwhile story. A tale of a prostitute who goes to Mahaa-Moggallaana to seduce him and is shamed into becoming a nun. It is a very important story to reflect on, I think. I especially like the way Mahaa-Moggallaana describes the putridness of the body to the prostitute because she is so enamoured with the body." ...... S: Not too warm for her at the time: "....The thera instructed her, having frightened her with an explanation of the impure.....: "You little hut(S:?), made of chain of bones, sewn together with flesh and sinew. Fie upon the evil-smelling body. You cherish those who have another's limbs. "You bag of dung, tied up with skin, you demoness with lumps on your breast. There are nine streams in your body which flow all the time..." ... S: And so on....But of course, for her it was the condition for samvegga, for a sense of urgency and for the arising of hiri and ottappa - a sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing. And of course she became an arahant. The texts also say that all Buddhas would give the Jataka accounts at appropriate times. And talking of (cold) showers, this is just what led to the telling of the Vessantara Jataka. The Buddha had made his proud kinsfolk pay obeisance to him by the performing of miracles. When they were sitting quietly and prepared to listen to him, there was a great shower of rain with a lot of noise. Those who wished to become wet were and those who didn't remained dry. The Buddha said it was not the first time that such a great shower had fallen on his kinsfolk. He ten proceeded to tell the Vessantara Jataka. At the end of the account, it says that when King Vessantara entered the city, Sakka's thrown grew hot and he "brought down a rain of the seven kinds of jewels like a thundershower, filling the back and front of the palace with them waist-high, and over all the city knee-deep." Of course the extremely cold showers Vessantara's wife and children endured were conditions for their favourable rebirths during the Buddha's life and attainment of arahantship too. Rahula was of course the son, his mother was Vessantara's wife and Uppalavanna was the daughter. So, I think there are all kinds of showers and we never know what kind of shower may be a condition for samvegga and wisdom to arise.... Clearly, it was the right time for the Buddha's proud kinsfolk to reflect on this shower, otherwise it wouldn't have been told! Metta, Sarah ========= #69481 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:01 am Subject: Birth & Death Consciousness and Time [Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-)) ...] upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Sarah, and all) - In a message dated 3/12/07 9:59:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > >Hi James, > > > >--- buddhatrue wrote: > >>>Btw, w/r to your little rave in #69093, > >> > >>James: A rave? I didn't really think it was a rave; I just > thought I > >>was thinking out loud. But, I guess when Phil does that it is > >>rambling and when I do that it is raving?? ;-)) > >.... > >S: ;-)) > >.... > >> > >> when have Nina, Jon or I compared > >>>'parinibbana to annihilation' > >> > >>James: Of course none of you use those exact words, but that is > in > >>essence what you say. If anyone asks you, "What happens to the > >>arahant at paranibbana?" Any answer other than: "That is beyond > the > >>scope of the teaching" is either going to be annihilation or > >>eternalism. You, Jon, and Nina tend to describe the experience > in > >>terms of annihilation- that it is like a candle being blown > >>out. "Poof" you're gone!! > >.... > >S: Well the Buddha did refer to rebirth when there is fuel and not > >without, just like for a fire. > > > >Of course, it's not a question of any person being 'gone', because > there > >was never a person in the first place. The khandas are the fire and > lobha > >is the fuel. > > Realize it or not, what you are promoting here is the wrong concept > of annihilation. You don't use that word, but it is annihilation. > > > =========================== James, there is something I've been thinking about that is related, though tangentially, to what you wrote here. It has to do with the view of time incorporated in a world view. It seems to me that the world view of Abhidhamma or at least of the commentaries, though not the suttas, is that of a discrete time proceeding like the integers, so that for each moment of time, there is an immediately preceding moment and an immediately succeeding one. This is not the view of time incorporated in the mathematics of modern physics, whose time line consists of the real numbers. In this view of time, at any moment of time, there is no immediate predecessor moment and no immediate successor moment! Between any two moments are infinitely many intermediate moments, with the real line being "dense". In that model of time, any moment is either a moment preceded by infinitely many moments within that lifetime or succeeded by infinitely many moments within that lifetime or both. It may be a first, last, or intermediate moment of that life, but whichever it is, there is no immediate predecessor and no immediate successor. If that moment is the last of the current life, there is no first moment of the next, for there is no immediate-successor moment. If that moment is the first of the next life, there is no last moment of the prior life, for there is no immediate-predecessor moment. The real-line view of time is one which enables all the successes of modern physics, and, moreover, the integers are all incorporated within the reals, so it is complete in that sense. The integer-view is an inadequate one except for certain restricted applications. The real-number system, however, in a technical mathematical sense, is complete, constituting a so called complete, ordered field, and it has proven to be an excellent model of time. With metta, Howard #69482 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:21 am Subject: Re: Birth & Death Consciousness and Time [Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-)) ...] upasaka_howard Hi again, James, Sarah, and all - I would add one more thought: The real-line model of time would allow for a last *consciously registering* moment of a lifetime followed later on by a first *consciously registering* moment of the next lifetime, despite the fact that infinitely many mind moments, none consciously registering, intervene. So, it is a model with respect to which one might have his/her cake and eat it too! ;-) With metta, Howard #69483 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:55 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner (14) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James & all, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Some people in this group see the wisdom of "cold showers"- I don't > > see the wisdom in such an approach. Loving-kindness and compassion > > are much more powerful and effective than "cold showers". > .... > S: I generally agree with you, but can there be "compassionate cold > showers"? James: I don't think so; if it is compassionate it isn't a "cold shower". People should be treated with compassion, not given "cold showers". Let me explain, in the suttas there are stories of some ascetics and various other people who go to the Buddha and ask him where they were going to be reborn. If the person was bound for a bad destination, the Buddha refused to answer the question. Why? Because it wouldn't be compassionate to that person. Sure, it would be a mighty "cold shower" to tell them that they were going to be reborn in hell or as an animal, but the Buddha had compassion. He would only tell the person if he/she kept insisting to know. The Buddha could have just gone around telling everyone; giving cold showers here and there to people; but that wouldn't be compassionate. Compassion is more important and more powerful than a cold shower. Also, isn't the "cold shower" in the perception (or > body-consciousness!) of the listener, I wonder? One person's 'cold' may be > another's 'warm':-) James: If it is bound to upset the person for a long time, it is a "cold shower". Of course, no one but a Buddha would know exactly what > the effects of any shower might be. James: I think that everyday people can use their common sense in this regard- it doesn't take a Buddha to not hurt someone's feelings. > > Take the 'Sister' extract you commented on: > > > Vimalaatheriigaatha ava.n.nanaa / 2. The commentary on the verses of > Theri > > Vimalaa > > > > James: "This is a very nice and worthwhile story. A tale of a prostitute > who goes to Mahaa-Moggallaana to seduce him and is shamed into becoming a > nun. It is a very important story to reflect on, I think. > > I especially like the way Mahaa-Moggallaana describes the putridness > of the body to the prostitute because she is so enamoured with the > body." > ...... > S: Not too warm for her at the time: > > "....The thera instructed her, having frightened her with an explanation > of the impure.....: > > "You little hut(S:?), made of chain of bones, sewn together with flesh and > sinew. Fie upon the evil-smelling body. You cherish those who have > another's limbs. > > "You bag of dung, tied up with skin, you demoness with lumps on your > breast. There are nine streams in your body which flow all the time..." > ... > S: And so on....But of course, for her it was the condition for samvegga, > for a sense of urgency and for the arising of hiri and ottappa - a sense > of shame and fear of wrongdoing. And of course she became an arahant. James: That wasn't a "cold shower", that was a teaching on the dhamma. If that prostitute hadn't been ready to hear that teaching, it wouldn't have affected her one bit! If she wasn't ready to hear that teaching, when Maha-Mogallana said to her, "You bag of dung, tied up with skin, you demoness with lumps on your breast. There are nine streams in your body which flow all the time...", she would have just thought to herself, "Okay, I'm not going to get any action with this guy. Guess I will go find another customer." Maha-Mogallana didn't give her a cold shower. A cold shower would have been telling her that because she had propositioned a monk of the highest order, she was going to be reborn in hell to suffer for aeons. That information would have disturbed her for a long time- that would have been a "cold shower", but it wouldn't have been compassionate. Maha- Mogallana gave her a compassionate teaching. When KS says things to people about you shouldn't have attachment because "there is no Nina and there is no Lodewijk", that isn't compassionate. Can't you see how upset that has made Lodewijk? That isn't compassion! Or when KS talks about a funeral as "just seeing and hearing", that isn't compassionate either! And stating that the victims of child abuse receive that abuse because of bad kamma isn't compassionate either! Hurting someone's feelings for a very long time in the name of a "cold shower" isn't compassion. > > The texts also say that all Buddhas would give the Jataka accounts at > appropriate times. And talking of (cold) showers, this is just what led to > the telling of the Vessantara Jataka. > > The Buddha had made his proud kinsfolk pay obeisance to him by the > performing of miracles. James: Sarah, I believe hardly a single one of the Jataka tales is true. Even the beginning of this one is suspect. The Buddha performing psychic miracles to get the people to worship him? Hello?? The Buddha specifically taught against doing any such thing! When they were sitting quietly and prepared to > listen to him, there was a great shower of rain with a lot of noise. Those > who wished to become wet were and those who didn't remained dry. The > Buddha said it was not the first time that such a great shower had fallen > on his kinsfolk. He ten proceeded to tell the Vessantara Jataka. > > At the end of the account, it says that when King Vessantara entered the > city, Sakka's thrown grew hot and he "brought down a rain of the seven > kinds of jewels like a thundershower, filling the back and front of the > palace with them waist-high, and over all the city knee-deep." > > Of course the extremely cold showers Vessantara's wife and children > endured were conditions for their favourable rebirths during the Buddha's > life and attainment of arahantship too. Rahula was of course the son, his > mother was Vessantara's wife and Uppalavanna was the daughter. > > So, I think there are all kinds of showers and we never know what kind of > shower may be a condition for samvegga and wisdom to arise.... > > Clearly, it was the right time for the Buddha's proud kinsfolk to reflect > on this shower, otherwise it wouldn't have been told! James: It wasn't told. It is a myth. > > Metta, > > Sarah Metta, James #69484 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: All about formless planes robmoult Hi Sarah, Connie, Kel, Rob K (and others) I agree that it is clear that I was mistaken in my post regarding the arising of sotapanna-magga citta in the arupa planes. My apologies. Thank you for finding this mistake. I will update my notes. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi RobM & all, > > Good to see you and Kel around! > > >Kel: Sotapanna-magga citta is the only lokuttara citta that > > doesn't > > > arise in arupa realms. You can already be a sotapanna and be > > reborn > > > into arupa thus sotapanna-phala citta can arise. Once a learner, > > they > > > can reach higher stages in arupa, definitely not as a worldling. > > It's > > > pretty clear on this issue. > > > > ===== > > > >RobM: You may be correct, but I am not sure. Unfortunately, I am on the > > road, and so I am away from most of my texts. Can you provide a > > source reference? > ... > S: I think Kel has expressed this clearly. For a ref, see CMA 111,21 uner > 'Compendium of Bases'. It is referring to cittas which *always* depend on > the heart-base (which cittas in the arupa-brahma plane do not). After > mentioning that the sense consciousness cittas depend on the sense bases, > it says: > > "But the mind element-namely, the five-door-adverting consciousness and > the (two types of) receiving consciousness - occurs in dependent on the > heart. Likewise those that remain - namely, the mind-consciousness element > comprising the investigating consciousness, ***the first path > consciousness***, smiling consciousness, the fine-material-sphere > consciousness - occur in dependence on the heart." > > S: It goes on to say that the remaining classes of consciousness may be > either dependent or not on the heart-base. These would include the other > path cittas. > > The Guide note says: "The first path consciousness, the path consciousness > of stream-entry, cannot occur in the immaterial realms because it is > contingent on hearing the Dhamma, which presupposes the ear faculty." It > goes on to say that 42 cittas are included in the 'remaining classes of > consciousness" which may or may not be dependent on the heart-base and > that these include the other 7 lokuttara cittas. There is one of those > charts you like which sets it all out (3.8). > > The commentary to the Abhidhammatyha Sangaha gives more detail as to why > the various cittas cannot arise in the arupa-brahma realm (due to the > absence of sense-doors and the functions of investigating and retention > etc). "Thus all these 33 consciousnesses (inc. sotapatti-magga) occur > exclusively supported by the heart." It also mentions the condition of > hearing another's voice for sotapatti magga. > > As Connie, RobK and others have suggested, clearly distinguishing namas > and rupas and understanding their characterisitics when they arise is > essential for the development of insight and sotapatti magga. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > #69485 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:00 am Subject: Birth & Death Consciousness and Time [Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-)) ...] buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and Sarah, and all) - I will give this post some pondering and get back to you. Math is not my strength! ;-)) Metta, James ps. I read this article by Thanissaro the other day and I couldn't understand it at all because it heavily uses math (maybe you can appreciate/understand it): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/resonance.html #69486 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:22 am Subject: Re: Birth & Death Consciousness and Time [Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-)) ...] upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 3/13/07 8:01:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, James (and Sarah, and all) - > > I will give this post some pondering and get back to you. Math is not > my strength! ;-)) --------------------------------------- Howard: That's true for almost everyone! ;-) The main point is that matters can be far more complex and subtle, even based on common mathematics [nothing esoteric about ther reals], than a common-sense view might suggest. BTW, I think my brief follow-up "have your cake & eat it too" post may be important for harmonizing views. ----------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ps. I read this article by Thanissaro the other day and I couldn't > understand it at all because it heavily uses math (maybe you can > appreciate/understand it): > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/resonance.html > --------------------------------------- Howard: I'll look it over, but I suspect in advance that it goes beyond math, as Ven T is much into chaos theory and related matters. ================== With metta. Howard #69487 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:42 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Friends, 2nd installment: 2. 'It is because what he did, O king, was so difficult, that the sound of the fame of the Bodisat was spread abroad among gods and men through the ten thousand world systems--[276] that the gods exalt him in heaven; and the Titans in the Titan-world, and the Garudas in their abodes, and the Naagas in the Naaga-world, and the Yakshas where they dwell--that through the ages the reputation of this his glory has been handed down by successive tradition--till now, to-day, it has reached to this meeting of ours, at which we sitting are, forsooth, disparaging and casting a slur on that gift, debating whether it were well given or ill! But that high praise, O king, shows forth the ten great qualities of the intelligent, and wise, and able, and subtle-minded Bodisats. And what are the ten? Freedom from greed, the not clinging (to any worldly aim), self-sacrifice, renunciation, the never turning back again (to the lower state), the equal delicacy and greatness, the incomprehensibility, the rarity, and the peerlessness of Buddhahood. In all these respects is it that the fame of that giving shows forth the great qualities of the Bodisats.' 3. 'What, venerable Naagasena? he who gives gifts in such a way as to bring sorrow upon others--does that giving of his bring forth fruit in happiness, does it lead to rebirth in states of bliss?' 'Yes, O king. What can be said (to the contrary)?' 'I pray you, Naagasena, give me a reason for this.' 'Suppose, O king, there were some virtuous Samana or Brahman, of high character, and he were paralysed, or a cripple, or suffering from some disease or other, and some man desirous of merit were to have him put into a carriage, and taken to the place he wished to go to. Would happiness accrue to that man by reason thereof, would that be an act leading to rebirth in states of bliss?' 'Yes, Sir. What can be said (to the contrary)? That man would thereby acquire a trained elephant, or a riding-horse, or a bullock-carriage, on land a land-vehicle and on water a water-vehicle, in heaven a vehicle of the gods and on earth one that men could use,--from birth to birth there would accrue to him that which in each would be appropriate and fit,--and joys appropriate would come to him, and he would pass from state to state of bliss, and by the efficacy of that act mounting on the vehicle of Iddhi he would arrive at the longed-for goal, the city of Nirvaana itself.' 'But then, O king, a gift given in such a way as to bring sorrow upon others does bring forth fruit in happiness, does lead to rebirth in states of bliss [277],--inasmuch as that man by putting the cart-bullocks to pain would attain such bliss. === to be continued, connie #69488 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > R: "Kamma implies volition (centana). An idea (object of a mental state) > does not have volition but the mental state which takes the idea as object does experience > volition." > > L: Are you saying a memory of a volitional consciousness is only an idea or that all objects > of mental states are ideas? What about mindfulness of a volitional consciousness? I would > like to pin down why a volitional consciousness looses its volitional or kammic power > when it becomes an object of a consciousness. ===== Yes, I am saying that objects of mind-door processes are ideas or concepts, and "memories" fall under this classification. [note: to be technically accurate, there is one type of mind door process which takes rupas as object]. Objects of mental states have no volition or kammic power; it is the mental state (which is conscious of the object) which has the kammic power. At the moment that I am doing dana, the mental state is wholesome and kamma is created. Later, when I am reflecting on that past mental state, the mental state doing the reflection creates new kamma. Imagine that pain arises as I sit during meditation. There is a sense door process which "introduces the pain into the mental stream". There are then a large number of mind-door processes which respond to the pain (at this point, it is an idea of pain because the actual pain rupa has long since fallen away). In the mind of a worldling (but not an Anagami, Arahant or Buddha), aversion to the pain will probably arise and this aversion will create unwholesome kamma as it arises. A few seconds later, as part of my vipassana meditation practice, I note this arising of aversion and, without taking it as "mine", I observe this aversion. This noting or observing is a fresh new mental state taking a past mental state as object. This fresh new mental state is in fact wholesome because it involves mindfulness (even though the object was an unwholesome mental state). I do not have my Visuddhimagga with me at the moment, but as I recall, the idea of a past unwholesome mental state being able to be the object of a present wholesome mental state is covered in Chapter XVII paragraph 102 or 103. ===== > If you give a gift mindfully does that giving > not have any kammic consequences? Certainly the mindfulness would have kammic > consequences, but I wonder about the giving. ===== To get the maximum "kammic impact" out of your dana, I recommend: - Spend time planning and visualizing the act of giving; each of these moments will likely be wholesome and it will reinforce an accumulation / habit of giving which will facilitate future generosity in this life and subsequent lives - Perform the act of giving with mindfulness and clear comprehension; giving hoping to get a reward is weak, giving knowing that it is the correct thing to do is medium, giving as part of an effort to perfect a parami is strongest - Share the merits of giving with unseen beings; this sharing is itself wholesome - Reflect on the wholesome deed; like the planning thoughts, each of these reflections will likely be wholesome and will reinforce an accumuation of giving which will facilitate future generosity in this life and subsequent lives ===== > Suppose you are mindfull of a moment of > anger that arises now, and then mindful of a moment of anger that happened yesterday. > What is the sum total of your kammic debt? > ===== I think that I covered that above when I talked about mindfulness of pain and Vism XVII 102-103 (I think). I am not comfortable with the phrase "sum total of your kammic debt". This implies a very two-dimensional way of looking at kamma and implies that good deeds can "cancel" bad deeds. Kamma result from bad deeds may still arise when conditions support their arising (even the Buddha experienced painful effects of past bad deeds committed before His enlightenment). ===== > What you wrote about bhavanga cittas is interesting. How can they be prompted? What > does it mean for a bhavanga citta with 2 roots to have a kamma as object? Would that be > like hating hate or loving love or loving hate or hating love? > ===== Applying the term "prompted" or "unprompted" to bhavanga mental states is probably misleading. Rather than "prompted", perhaps we could say "accompanied by sloth & torpor". This would convey the correct impression that these types of bhavanga mental states are more passive than their unprompted/spontaneous cousins which are not accompanied by sloth & torpor. All bhavanga mental states in this existence take the same object. The object taken by the bhavanga mental states was the object of the death process from the previous existence. It can be kamma, sign of kamma or sign of destiny. A bhavanga mental state with two roots has the mental factors of non-attachment (alobha) and non-aversion (adosa) toward the object. A bhavanga mental state with three roots also has wisdom (panna) towards the object. Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Larry, I really appreciate your questions. They give me a chance to think how to explain clearly some difficult ideas and this helps me as a teacher of Abhidhamma. Over the years, there have been many times that I have "recycled" our conversations when teaching my class. #69489 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:43 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (44) nichiconn Dear Friends, part 2 of 3, Therii Sakulaa: "Tadaa hi so lokagaru, bhikkhuni.m dibbacakkhuka.m; kittaya.m parisaamajjhe, agga.t.thaane .thapesi ta.m. "Su.nitvaa tamaha.m ha.t.thaa, daana.m datvaana satthuno; puujitvaana ca sambuddha.m, dibbacakkhu.m apatthayi.m. "Tato avoca ma.m satthaa, nande lacchasi patthita.m; padiipadhammadaanaana.m, phalameta.m sunicchita.m. "Satasahassito kappe, okkaakakulasambhavo; gotamo naama gottena, satthaa loke bhavissati. "Tassa dhammesu daayaadaa, orasaa dhammanimmitaa; sakulaa naama naamena, hessati satthu saavikaa. Then that Teacher of the World praised a bhikkhunii who possessed the divine eye in the midst of the assembly and placed her in the foremost position for that. When I heard that I was happy, and I gave a gift to the Teacher. I honoured the Fully Awakened One and asked for the divine eye. Then the Teacher said to me, "Nandaa, you will obtain what you have requested as the well-desired result of your gift of lamps to the Doctrine. "One hundred aeons from now there will be a Teacher in the world, named Gotama through his lineage, a descendant of the Okkaaka clan. "There will be an heir to his Doctrine, a legitmate offspring of the Doctrine named Sakulaa, a disciple of the Teacher." "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Imamhi bhaddake kappe, brahmabandhu mahaayaso; kassapo naama gottena, uppajji vadata.m varo. "Paribbaajakinii aasi.m, tadaaha.m ekacaarinii; bhikkhaaya vicaritvaana, alabhi.m telamattaka.m. "Tena diipa.m padiipetvaa, upa.t.thi.m sabbasa.mvari.m; cetiya.m dvipadaggassa, vippasannena cetasaa. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. As a result of that virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. In this auspicious aeon, the Brahmaa Kinsman of Great Fame, Kassapa by name, the Best of Speakers, was born. I was a wanderer at that time, all alone. I wandered about for alms and obtained a measure of oil. Then I lit a lamp and tended the shrine of the Foremost of Men all night long with a purified mind. As a result of that virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. "Yattha yatthuupapajjaami, tassa kammassa vaahasaa; pajjalanti mahaadiipaa, tattha tattha gataaya me. "Tiroku.t.ta.m tirosela.m, samatiggayha pabbata.m; passaamaha.m yadicchaami, diipadaanassida.m phala.m. "Visuddhanayanaa homi, yasasaa ca jalaamaha.m; saddhaapa~n~naavatii ceva, diipadaanassida.m phala.m. "Pacchime ca bhave daani, jaataa vippakule aha.m; pahuutadhanadha~n~namhi, mudite raajapuujite. "Aha.m sabba"ngasampannaa, sabbaabhara.nabhuusitaa; purappavese sugata.m, vaatapaane .thitaa aha.m. Wherever I was reborn, thanks to that deed, great lamps blazed forth for me wherever I went. I could see whatever I wanted to beyond the wall, beyond the rock, reaching beyond a mountain. This was the result of the gift of the lamp. I possessed a purified eye and fame. I shone, protecting my faith and wisdom. This was the result of the gift of the lamp. Now, in my last existence, I was born in a brahman family with abundant wealth and grain, joyous, and honoured by the king. I was perfect in all my limbs, adorned with all my ornaments, and standing at the window, I saw the Sublime One on his entrance into the town. "Disvaa jalanta.m yasasaa, devamanussasakkata.m; anubya~njanasampanna.m, lakkha.nehi vibhuusita.m. "Udaggacittaa sumanaa, pabbajja.m samarocayi.m; na cireneva kaalena, arahattamapaapu.ni.m. "Iddhiisu ca vasii homi, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; paracittaani jaanaami, satthusaasanakaarikaa. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; khepetvaa aasave sabbe, visuddhaasi.m sunimmalaa. "Parici.n.no mayaa satthaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m; ohito garuko bhaaro, bhavanettisamuuhataa. He was shining with fame, honoured by devas and men, adorned with the [thirty-two major] marks and possessed of the [eighty] minor marks. With a happy mind, joyful, I had a strong inclination to go forth, and in a very short time, I attained Arahatship. I have mastery of the supernormal powers. By means of the divine ear, I know the thoughts of others. I comply with the teaching of the Teacher. I know my previous lives; my divine eye has been purified. Having destroyed all the taints, I am pure, completely freed of impurity. I have attended on the Teacher. I have done the Buddha's teaching. I have put down the heavy burden. Everything that leads to renewed existence has been rooted out. "Yassatthaaya pabbajitaa, agaarasmaanagaariya.m; so me attho anuppatto, sabbasa.myojanakkhayo. "Tato mahaakaaru.niko, etadagge .thapesi ma.m; dibbacakkhukaana.m aggaa, sakulaati naruttamo. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. The aim for which one goes forth from the home to the homeless state, that aim has been attained by me - all bonds are destroyed. Then the One of Great Sympathy, the Best of Men placed me as foremost, saying, "Sakulaa is foremost of those with the divine eye." My depravities are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. === continues, connie. #69490 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:35 am Subject: Dana robmoult Hi All, In a recent post, I wrote: To get the maximum "kammic impact" out of your dana, I recommend: - Spend time planning and visualizing the act of giving; each of these moments will likely be wholesome and it will reinforce an accumulation / habit of giving which will facilitate future generosity in this life and subsequent lives - Perform the act of giving with mindfulness and clear comprehension; giving hoping to get a reward is weak, giving knowing that it is the correct thing to do is medium, giving as part of an effort to perfect a parami is strongest - Share the merits of giving with unseen beings; this sharing is itself wholesome - Reflect on the wholesome deed; like the planning thoughts, each of these reflections will likely be wholesome and will reinforce an accumuation of giving which will facilitate future generosity in this life and subsequent lives I would like to share with you an idea that you may wish to adopt. I have a clear plastic jar in my house. Each month, I put a fixed amount of cash into that jar so that it is very visible to the entire family (I have a wife and two teenage kids). Over dinner, my family and I discuss how we are going to use that money for charity. My wife scans the newspaper looking for children seeking funds for an operation or collection drives because of earthquakes, etc.. Together as a family we decide how to allocate our charitable donations. This practice encourages a lot of discussion of dana in the family and that discussion itself is wholesome. From time to time, we also discuss how we have used the money and this reflection on dana is also wholesome. Metta, Rob M :-) #69491 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) nichiconn Hi Sarah, > Vimalaatheriigaatha ava.n.nanaa / 2. The commentary on the verses of > Theri Vimalaa James: "This is a very nice and worthwhile story. A tale of a prostitute who goes to Mahaa-Moggallaana to seduce him and is shamed into becoming a nun. It is a very important story to reflect on, I think. I especially like the way Mahaa-Moggallaana describes the putridness of the body to the prostitute because she is so enamoured with the body." ...... S: Not too warm for her at the time: "....The thera instructed her, having frightened her with an explanation of the impure.....: "You little hut(S:?), made of chain of bones, sewn together with flesh and sinew. Fie upon the evil-smelling body. You cherish those who have another's limbs. C: Yep, "hut". Maybe dyslexic when I wrote "(14)", but I remember doing a double take when I copied "hut" but just now went up and re-checked the book anyway. Reminded me of the "house of pain", "dwelling", etc, depending on the translator, in Buddha's Lion's Roar in Dhp vv 153, 154. FM Muller's rendition: << Looking for the maker of this tabernacle, I shall have to run through a course of many births, so long as I do not find (him); and painful is birth again and again. But now, maker of the tabernacle, thou hast been seen; thou shalt not make up this tabernacle again. All thy rafters are broken, thy ridge-pole is sundered; the mind, approaching the Eternal (visankhara, nirvana), has attained to the extinction of all desires. >> Whatever it's called, it's still like those movies where the shower starts out all nice and cozy before the water turns to blood, with or without Hitchcock music. peace, connie #69492 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika nilovg Hi Rob M, but sloth and torpor are akusala cetasikas and these cannot accompany bhavangacittas of human. As humans we have bhavangacittas that are kusala vipaakacittas. But prompted ones are more sluggish than unprompted ones and this depends on the kusala kamma that produced them. Nina. Op 13-mrt-2007, om 16:42 heeft robmoult het volgende geschreven: > Applying the term "prompted" or "unprompted" to bhavanga mental > states is probably misleading. Rather than "prompted", perhaps we > could say "accompanied by sloth & torpor". This would convey the > correct impression that these types of bhavanga mental states are > more passive than their unprompted/spontaneous cousins which are not > accompanied by sloth & torpor. #69493 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:38 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 2, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The “Atthasåliní”(332) gives the following definition of nutriment: As to its characteristic, etc., solid food has the characteristic of nutritive essence, the function of fetching matter (to the eater), of sustaining matter as its manifestation, of substance to be swallowed as proximate cause. Nutritive essence is not only present in rice and other foods, it is also present in what we call a rock or sand. It is present in any kind of materiality. Insects are able to digest what human beings cannot digest, such as, for example, wood. Nutrition is one of the four factors which produce rúpas of the body. As we have seen, the other factors are kamma, citta and temperature. In the unborn being in the mother’s womb, groups of rúpa produced by nutrition arise as soon as the nutritive essence present in food taken by its mother pervades its body (Visuddhimagga XVII, 194). From then on nutrition keeps on producing rúpas and sustaining the rúpas of the body throughout life. We can notice that nutrition produces rúpas when good or bad food affects the body in different ways. Bad food may cause the skin to be ugly, whereas the taking of vitamins for example may cause skin and hair to look healthy. Because of attachment we are inclined to be immoderate as to food. We forget to consider food as a medicine for our body. The Buddha exhorted the monks to eat just the quantity of food needed to sustain the body but not more and to reflect wisely when eating (Visuddhimagga I, 85). The monk should review with understanding the requisites he receives. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (I, 124): ... For use is blameless in one who at the time of receiving robes, etc., reviews them either as (mere) elements or as repulsive, and puts them aside for later use, and in one who reviews them thus at the time of using them. The monk should review robes, and the other requisites of dwelling, food and medicines, as mere elements or as repulsive. If he considers food as repulsive it helps him not to indulge in it. Food consists merely of conditioned elements. This can be a useful reminder, also for laypeople, to be mindful when eating. ******* Nina. #69494 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:43 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, 9, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, (continuation of the dialogue between Khun Sujin and Sarah): Sarah: "Is there more patience because one tries less to control realities?" Khun Sujin: "There is less attachment to self." Sarah: "Will there be less frustration about situations?" Khun Sujin: "And also less disturbance while one thinks about other people. One understands that there is no permanent being. Sound arises and falls away, it does not belong to any one. When people speak the sound is conditioned by the nåma-kkhandhas and these also fall away. There is only the thinking of a story about people and things all the time. It is the same as when we watch T.V., read the newspaper or dream about things. What is seen is only visible object. When there is patience one is not disturbed by any circumstances. One may be inclined to think of a self who cannot bear anymore such or such situation. Patience is a condition not to have aversion. We have to cope with many situations. The growth of the perfections must be in daily life, in any situation." Sarah: "I do not quite understand the perfection of determination or resolution, it seems that it is just thinking." Khun Sujin: "Thinking and taking action." Sarah: "Following the kusala way?" Khun Sujin: "When I go to the Bovornives Temple to give lectures or I am preparing the tapes for the radio I do not have to think about which perfections I am developing. The action shows the perfections. It is not self but sankharakkhandha (the khandha of 'activities' or 'formations') which conditions the thinking, 'I will do as much kusala as possible', and also the action in accordance with the thinking. Resolution is not only thinking. One needs the perfection of sincerity or truthfulness in order to conform one's deeds and speech with one's thinking to perform kusala. For example, you have the intention to have right speech but when the situation arises for right speech it depends on whether you have sincerity to act according to your resolution. Sincerity can condition kusala at such a moment. Then you develop kusala not for fame, admiration and other selfish motives." ******** Nina. #69495 From: "m_nease" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:23 pm Subject: Re: A final venting from phil, probably. m_nease Hi Sarah, Please forgive the long delay--I was away and am just catching up: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > >Mike: OK--but you wouldn't say that it's marking and remembering the > > perception of > > self (i.e. a concept rather than a dhamma?) > .... > S: Yes, it is. Just like the marking now of the visible object and > hardness as a thing, a computer. Remembering 'atta'. > > Did I misunderstand you? Thanks, no, I don't think so. I guess my point is that it seems to me that it is never a single dhamma that is taken for a self or a computer, but an innumerable number of them in retrospect. In other words, I don't think a single eye-door process or a single body-sense-door process is likely to be taken as a computer or as a self, do you? Or do you think it matters at all? mike #69496 From: "colette" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:09 am Subject: Re: (re)productions, "klad pa 'gems pa" or in english "scrambled brains" ksheri3 Good Morning connie, Yea, I like your reply, as usual. I'm reading this TOTALLY INTERESTING STUFF on Svabhava/Svabhavata-Anatman/Shunyata etc. and it gets into "...mind boggling teaching of the Great Madhyamikas was quite chocking to the orthodoxy when brought out in Tibet by Dolpopa..." I think that the students that coined the term "scrambled brains" were speaking of the way I felt when I first began reading Jaq. Derida. VERY COOL STUFF. Last night I had an interesting encountersince I know that MY CONSCIOUS RECOGNITION of a situation that exists when I meditate as I go to sleep pondering the infinite amount of possibilities of life, I found that it definitely is a RESULT of the CONDITIONING that we encounter BECAUSE OF "Name & Form". I got deeper and tried to think of the ORDER in which they occured: Does Name cause Form or does Form cause Name but then I started recalling those wisemen of the Monty Python troupe who portrayed The Gumbies: "My brain hurts" where I ended up recalling the joy officer Harry "snapper" Organs found as he stalked Doug & Dinsdale Perona (the notorious Perona Bros) as I began my treck to the land of nod. > ...cinema of my mind, colette: beautiful phrasology! "naaga" anything to do with "nagpas"? Buddhaghosa? Isn't that a book? Visuddhimagga? One of Vasubandhu's bros.? Shape-shifting: never heard of it, in fact I believe such things are simply re-configurations of the atoms, elements, that already exist and are subjected to the RESULTS of Name & Form. Lets not go off speaking in terms of my perversions here by suggesting that dhatu is/are elements. But your study sounds very interesting. Lots of potential, no? The "churning of the elixir of life" by the dieties using Shakti's form of a turtle to support the battle between these supposed goods & evils. that's what you sound as if you're suggesting through your story of butter cream. Thanx for your wishes to me about my life recieving some butter cream but that is out of our hands, at least it's out of my hands and I have never seen any hands that want to give me something other than the shaft. But such is the case for fraternal orders, groups of neophytes, etc. I'm outahere. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Dear Colette, > > Colette: connie, I see something, if you travel in the worlds of hermetics > then maybe you see it too. > > Connie: I've just been watching in the cinema of my mind, the venerable > Moggallaana tame the Naaga king... narration by Buddhaghosa in the > Visuddhimagga's exposition of psychic power. Great story with lots of > shape-shifting & all. <....> #69497 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dana hantun1 Dear Rob M, Rob M: I would like to share with you an idea that you may wish to adopt. I have a clear plastic jar in my house. Each month, I put a fixed amount of cash into that jar so that it is very visible to the entire family (I have a wife and two teenage kids). Over dinner, my family and I discuss how we are going to use that money for charity. My wife scans the newspaper looking for children seeking funds for an operation or collection drives because of earthquakes, etc.. Together as a family we decide how to allocate our charitable donations. This practice encourages a lot of discussion of dana in the family and that discussion itself is wholesome. From time to time, we also discuss how we have used the money and this reflection on dana is also wholesome. -------------------- Han: A very good idea, Rob! Thank you very much for sharing it with us. I will adopt a similar strategy. Respectfully, Han #69498 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika robmoult Hi Nina (and Larry), Ooooooooooooooooooooooops!!! That is two mistakes in one week (the other being sotapanna-magga citta in arupa planes)! It is important to delfate one's ego every so often. Nina, thank you for keeping an eye on me - something like a guardian angel :-) Larry, I apologize for any confusion that my error caused. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Rob M, > but sloth and torpor are akusala cetasikas and these cannot accompany > bhavangacittas of human. As humans we have bhavangacittas that are > kusala vipaakacittas. But prompted ones are more sluggish than > unprompted ones and this depends on the kusala kamma that produced them. > Nina. > > Op 13-mrt-2007, om 16:42 heeft robmoult het volgende geschreven: > > > Applying the term "prompted" or "unprompted" to bhavanga mental > > states is probably misleading. Rather than "prompted", perhaps we > > could say "accompanied by sloth & torpor". This would convey the > > correct impression that these types of bhavanga mental states are > > more passive than their unprompted/spontaneous cousins which are not > > accompanied by sloth & torpor. > #69499 From: "Larry" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika lbidd2 Hi Rob, Thanks for your interesting reply. Just a couple of comments: R: "Yes, I am saying that objects of mind-door processes are ideas or concepts, and "memories" fall under this classification. [note: to be technically accurate, there is one type of mind door process which takes rupas as object]." L: What about objects of pa~n~naa? Also can't we love love or hate hate even as they arise? It seems so. Plus it seems that some memories are very realistic, not necessarily what I would call a memory of a concept. When kamma is the object of a bhavanga citta is that kamma a concept? With regard to the "sum total of your kammic dept", I was wondering if mindfulness of a crime, for example, would incur akusala vipaka citta? I think the answer is yes if akusala javana citta arises and then that same citta becomes an object of mindfulness. [Notice the stretching of the present moment.] Larry #69500 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika gazita2002 Hello RobM, thank you. there has been something bothering me about this process, and it feels like something is organising this. Like the kamma 'knows' that death is imminent!!! I put this down as wrong understanding on my part and I know that the Buddha has mentioned something about madness if one tries to work out how kamma works. So, for the present moment, I will accept that this is just the way it is - the death process - and leave it at that. thank you again for your help. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #69501 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:01 pm Subject: Audio - edited discussions with A.Sujin sarahprocter... Dear Friends, We're very happy (and honoured) to say we've uploaded another set of edited recordings to http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/. This is a set from March 2005 in Bangkok. It's uploaded amongst the audio recordings below the DSG archives. When you get to the audio recordings, it's under India 2001. I think there is some very useful discussion and the editing makes it easy to listen to, I believe. Many familiar names as usual! It starts with 'yoniso manasikara' and then moves onto many other DSG topics. Vince is his lively best questioning and challenging K.Sujin's comments on practice and present moment - so plenty of meat for everyone:-) We've also re-uploaded India 2004 at the bottom of the audio recordings. We were at our limit with space on the site, so it had been removed. The space has been inceased, so it's back on. Some who've only been listening to these recordings for a year or two may not have heard these - our first editing attempt. (As I mentioned to Scott, the names at the beginning of each session are given 'in order of appearance'. So if you want to know who is who, scribble these down at the start.) The order of the recordings is a bit strange as we've put them up in more or less the order we might recommend to those new to listening to A.Sujin in terms of the complexity and quality of the recording and editing. So, if you haven't listened to any before, the first set in Bkk, July 2001 with Erik & friends is relatively easy to follow. Comments, feedback and disagreements most welcome:-) Happy listening! Metta, Sarah (& Jon) ============= #69502 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Audio - edited discussions with A.Sujin sarahprocter... All, I meant to add that if anyone has any difficulty with downloading recordings (because of relying on slow dial-up etc), pls send me your mail address off-list specifying exactly what you'd like and we can send c.d.s in mp3 format. Pls do this even if we've sent you c.ds before as circumstances change and we don't keep track very well:-). Metta, Sarah p.s Joel - interesting photo in the album, thx! When/where was it taken out of interest? ======== #69503 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:16 pm Subject: Re: Audio - edited discussions with A.Sujin scottduncan2 Dear Sarah and Jon, Re: "We're very happy (and honoured) to say we've uploaded another set of edited recordings..." Yay! And thanks. Scott. #69504 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:27 pm Subject: Birth & Death Consciousness and Time [Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-)) ...] buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and Sarah, and all) - > James, there is something I've been thinking about that is related, > though tangentially, to what you wrote here. It has to do with the view of time > incorporated in a world view. It seems to me that the world view of Abhidhamma > or at least of the commentaries, though not the suttas, is that of a discrete > time proceeding like the integers, so that for each moment of time, there is > an immediately preceding moment and an immediately succeeding one. This is not > the view of time incorporated in the mathematics of modern physics, whose > time line consists of the real numbers. In this view of time, at any moment of > time, there is no immediate predecessor moment and no immediate successor > moment! Okay, I am very, very tired today, so I probably don't get what it is that you are saying, but I will tackle it anyway. Then you can write back to clarify. You write that in the Abhidhamma sense of time, there is always a proceeding moment and a succeeding moment to each dhamma, although in real time there are no such things as "moments" and time is a continuous flow. Am I following you so far? (BTW, I'm really not sure what this has to do with annihilation view. ;-)) Anyway, I don't think that what you believe is the Abhidhamma sense of time is really the Abhidhamma- it's just the Abhidhamma as presented in this group. Allow me to quote from Karunadasa "The Dhamma Theory": "The foregoing observations should show that the mental as well as the material dhammas are not actually separable one from another. In the case of the mental dhammas, the term used is satsattha (conjoined); in the case of the material dhammas, the term used is avinibbhoga (inseparable). This raises the question why the dhammas are presented as a plurality. The answer is that, although they are not actually separable, yet they are distinguishable (vibhagavanta) one from another. It is this distinguishability that serves as the foundation of the dhamma theory." So, dhammas occur during real time, not during discrete intervals. Am I getting anywhere close to what you are talking about?? LOL! Metta, James #69505 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. sarahprocter... Dear Scott (Nina & all), I know you'll appreciate the detail in the new recordings. If I remember rightly, na-vatabba features:). Thx for your further reflections. --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: Yes, right. The na-vatabba object is an object proper - not a > quasi-object, nor some object that is some sort of hybrid thing to be > thought of as in being in the midst of transformation or something. > It is a type object, if this might be said, that is taken and by which > the characteristic of a past object, either paramattha dhamma or > concept, is known - no more, no less. Is this closer to the mark? ... Sarah: Better! I'd just stress that to all intents and purposes, it is a 'present object' and referred to as such. .... > I guess I was casting around in my mind and thought of what seemed to > be an analogous line of reasoning from Non-Dhamma, and considered the > concept discussed by Winnicott <...>all things being > equal, a child 'internalises' the psychological functions once > performed by a mother and finds them operative within him or her self. .... Sarah: An interesting analogy, but I'm not sure how far it can be taken... ... > And so this is how I imagined the na-vatabba object in terms of its > use. I imagined that it is the characteristic of, say, visible object > but one just fallen away, and, while having its own reality - that > being the characteristic of visible object - it is not that particular > visible object. .... Sarah: I think again that it is referred to as being the same 'present' visible object, even though, strictly speaking, the visible object itself has fallen away. It is not a different v.o., like the teddy bear replacing the mother. I like the quote or analogy your posted very much: >Scott: I'm reminded again of the very good analogy from Atthasaalinii we have discussed before: "Just as the bird flying through the sky and alighting on a tree touches the branch of the tree and its shadow strikes the ground, the touching of the branch and the spreading of the shadow taking place in one moment, simultaneously, so the contact with the sensitive organ, etc., by the presented object of sense is simultaneous with its coming into the avenue of the mind-door through its ability to cause the life-continuum to vibrate...these objects present themselves naturally by virtue of having been seen, heard, smelt, tasted, and touched..."< .... Sarah: "these objects present themselves naturally by virtue of having been seen, heard, smelt, tasted, and touched" - in other words, still the same present object, even if by way of a 'shadow'. .... > The na-vatabba object, again I imagine, is taken as object and, while > being a reality, is a representative of the object that has fallen > away but is 'used' by, say sati or pa~n~na in the realisation of that > particular characteristic. In this way it is not concept or thinking > nor is it the 'original' object since this is long gone since it arose > in the sense-door. Anyway, enough of that. .... Sarah: It doesn't just appear (or be 'used') to/by sati and panna, but it appears to any cittas and cetasikas arising in the subsequent mind-door process, whether kusala or akusala. For example, if more commonly lobha arises following the sense-door process, the sense object appears/is used to/by lobha. I wouldn't say the 'original' object has 'long gone', because this only refers to the sense door process (or mind door process in the case of paccavekkana cittas etc)that has just fallen away. .... > Sarah: "One that can be found in the commentaries that I find helpful > is in relation to paccavekhana or reviewing consciousness after the > lokuttara cittas which have experienced nibbana have fallen away. The > succeeding paccavekkhana cittas experience and review the path > factors, nibbana, frution consciousness, the defilements eradicated > and so on. None of this is by thinking but by direct realization. The > path factors, nibbana and so on are paramattha dhammas experienced as > such, by way of navatabba.(The same applies to the reviewing cittas > immediately succeeding jhana experiences and so on.)...The same > principle applies to sense door realities when experienced by the > succeeding mind door process." .... (Sarah: When I gave the example of paccavekkana cittas following the lokuttara cittas, I hadn't read Nina's post and your response to it with the same example!) .... > Scott: So these things - path factors, nibbaana - when objects of > review, if this can be said, are na-vatabba objects. The path, for > example, only arises once. This is then object of review ever after. > This is not thinking about path factors. .... Sarah: Yes, you got it! It's direct understanding/penetration of those dhammas in question. ... >The na-vatabba object is > the particular characteristic of the object fallen-away. .... Sarah: Yes, except in this example, we can't say nibbana has fallen away. The path cittas, however, have fallen away. Both are known by the paccavekkana cittas in rapid successions. Also the defilements eradicated are directly known as such. .... > What role, if any, does sa~n~na play in this? ... Sarah: A very important role! As you know, sanna arises with each citta. Without sanna marking and remembering the object at each of these moments, any such 'rcollection' or marking (with whatever kind of cittas -akusala, kusala or even kiriya cittas of the arahant) would be impossible. This is why it has its own khandha. Thanks for the helpful feedback and consideration, Scott. As usual, it makes quite an impression! Metta, Sarah =========== #69506 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:57 pm Subject: Daana Corner (18) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “Qualities of the Donor” Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ Qualities of the Donor The suttas (e.g., D.i,137) employ a number of terms to describe the qualities of a donor. He is a man with faith (saddha), he has faith in the nobility of a morally sound life, in the teachings of kamma and survival after death. He believes in the possibility of the moral and spiritual perfection of man. In short, he is not a materialist, and he has faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. He is not merely a giver (dayako), he is a lordly giver (danapati). The commentary explains the concept of "lordly giver" in the following words: "He who himself enjoys delicious things but gives to others what is not delicious is a donor who is a slave to the gifts he gives. He who gives things of the same quality as he himself enjoys is one who is like a friend of the gift. He who satisfies himself with whatever he can get but gives delicacies to others is a lordly giver, a senior and a master of the gifts given." The donor is also described as one who keeps an open house for the needy (anavatadvaro). He is like a wellspring (opanabhuto) for recluses, brahmans, the destitute, wayfarers, wanderers and beggars. Being such a one he does meritorious deeds. He is munificent (muttacago) and is interested in sharing his blessings with others (danasamvibhagarato). He is a philanthropist who understands the difficulties of the poor (vadannu). He is open-handed and is ready to comply with another's request (payatapani). He is one fit to be asked from (yacayogo). He takes delight in distributing gifts to the needy (vossaggarato), and has a heart bent on giving (cagaparibhavitacitto). Such are the epithets used in the suttas to describe the qualities of the liberal-minded. A noble giver is one who is happy before, during and after giving (A.iii,336). Before giving he is happy anticipating the opportunity to exercise his generosity. While giving he is happy that he is making another happy by fulfilling a need. After giving he is satisfied that he has done a good deed. The suttas list generosity as one of the important qualities that go to make a gentleman (A.iv,220). The Buddha compares the man who righteously earns his wealth and gives of it to the needy to a man who has both eyes, whereas the one who only earns wealth but does no merit is like a one-eyed man (A.i,129-30). The wealthy man who enjoys his riches by himself without sharing is said to be digging his own grave (Sn. 102). ------------------------------ “The Donations” will be in next post. Han #69507 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:28 pm Subject: Flowers for Phil ( was Re: All about formless planes) philofillet Hi all This might sound like a gripe, or whining, but don't mean it that way - it's just interesting to me... ...have you seen that movie or read the book "Flowers for Algernon" where the mentally challenged guy gets a radical treatment and becomes intelligent, but then loses it at the end and goes back to being mentally challenged? I'm relating to him these days. When I joined DSG a few years ago I had no idea what people were talking about, then I did, and got obsessed with it. Now I still know what people are talking about but don't know why it matters to people like me. Soon I won't even know what people are talking about! :) Again, not meaning to gripe, just interesting to see the way understanding develops/dedevelops and so on...I think it's funny. Metta, Phil #69508 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (35) sarahprocter... Hi Connie & all, Dear Connie & all, Selaa's story is also very inspiring (#68910, #68911) C:" When she was still a young girl, she came into the presence of the Teacher together with the king. She heard the Doctrine, gained faith, and became a lay follower. Afterwards, a profound stirring arose and she went forth with the bhikkhuniis. She fulfilled the preliminary duties, established insight, and mastering the formations, possessing the prerequisites, and being of matured knowledge, after a very short time she attained Arahatship." .... S: 'fulfilled the preliminary duties, established insight' (pabbajitvaa katapubbakiccaa vipassana.m) - Qu: does the fulfilling of the preliminary duties refer to developing vipassana or to satipatthana prior to vipassana or something else, I wonder? I assume it's different from pubbayoga (prior effort) and pubbacariyaa (prior conduct)..... And how old was she when she became an arahant? .... >C: "At the age of seven, I attained Arahatship, and Buddha Gotama, recognizing my merity, had me given full ordination. <...> I have purified my divine eye. I am skilled in concentration and have attained perfection in direct knowledge. < .... S: of course, we read that this wasn't a sudden bit of good fortune to hear the Buddha but that it was a result of her offering of five lamps to a previous Buddha a hundred thousand aeons ago and her good conduct ever since in happy rebirths. Her verses addressed to Mara are always impressive: >C: 58. Sensual pleasures are like swords and stakes. The aggregates are a chopping block for them. What you call "delight in sensual pleasures" is now "non-delight" for me. > 59. Everywhere, enjoyment of pleasure is defeated. The mass of darkness [of ignorance] is torn asunder. In this way, know, evil one, you are defeated, death." .... S: And also attributed to Selaa, the great reminders of the conditioned khandhas that make up this puppet, 'nor yet by other is this evil fashilon'd': .... >C: "9. Selaa. *476 > > . . . . . Now, Bhikkhunii Selaa . . . . . sat down at the root of a > certain tree for siesta. > Then Maara . . . . . went up to her, and addressed her with a verse: > > 'Who was't that made this human puppet's form? > Where, tell me, is the human doll's artificer? > Whence hath the human puppet come to be? > Where, tell me, shall it cease and pass away?' > > Then Bhikkhunii Selaa thought . . . . . ' Sure 'tis Maara!' . . . . . > and > . . . . . replied with verses: > > 'Neither self-made the puppet is, nor yet > By other is this evil fashione'd. > By reason of a cause it came to be; > By rupture of a cause, it dies away. > Like to a given seed sown in the field, > Which, when it lighteth on the taste of earth > And moisture likewise - by these twain doth grow, > So the five aggregates, the elements, > And the six spheres of sense - even all these - > By reason of a cause they came to be; > By rupture of a cause they die away.' > > Then Maara, thinking, 'Bhikkhunii Selaa knows me!' vanished thence, sad > > and dejected. > > *****" .... S: Great work, Connie and thx for also valiantly starting the daana sub-corner:-) Metta, Sarah ======== #69509 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:06 pm Subject: Flowers for Phil ( was Re: All about formless planes) robmoult Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi all > > This might sound like a gripe, or whining, but don't mean it > that way - it's just interesting to me... > > ...have you seen that movie or read the book "Flowers for > Algernon" where the mentally challenged guy gets a radical treatment > and becomes intelligent, but then loses it at the end and goes back > to being mentally challenged? > ===== Great book! ===== > > I'm relating to him these days. When I joined DSG a few years ago > I had no idea what people were talking about, then I did, and got > obsessed with it. Now I still know what people are talking about but > don't know why it matters to people like me. Soon I won't even know > what people are talking about! :) > > Again, not meaning to gripe, just interesting to see the way > understanding develops/dedevelops and so on...I think it's funny. > > Metta, > > Phil > ===== Yesterday, I posted the following message to Connie. You may also find it relevant to your situation: I view the teachings as a set of concentric rings shaped like a target. - At the core, in the bulls-eye are the Suttas. - A tight ring around the core is the material in the seven books of the Abhidhamma (with the Kathavatthu at the outside of this ring) - The next ring are the commentaries - The following ring is the Abhidhammatthasangaha - The final ring is material by more recent authors The later additions to the Suttas are not necessarily wrong or embellishments, but they can be viewed as non-core teachings. Though non-core teachings may be interesting to discuss, they should not distract us from the important themes contained in the Tipitaka. The Abhidhamma should not be viewed as an "intellectual exercise". The Abhidhamma provides a framework for the understanding of our everyday experience and this understanding will act as a condition for the arising of insight. For example, in the Anupada Sutta (MN 111), the Buddha praised Sàriputta for being able to detect some twenty dhammas occurring together with the jhanas (including the jhana factors) as they arise, persist and disappear. Metta, Rob M :-) #69510 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flowers for Phil ( was Re: All about formless planes) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > > Hi all > > This might sound like a gripe, or whining, but don't mean it > that way - it's just interesting to me... > > ...have you seen that movie or read the book "Flowers for > Algernon" where the mentally challenged guy gets a radical treatment > and becomes intelligent, but then loses it at the end and goes back > to being mentally challenged? > > I'm relating to him these days. When I joined DSG a few years ago > I had no idea what people were talking about, then I did, and got > obsessed with it. Now I still know what people are talking about but > don't know why it matters to people like me. Soon I won't even know > what people are talking about! :) .... S: You could always ask/'challenge' the writer of any post to indicate the relevance or 'why it matters to people' like you! Always useful. Perhaps in your polite way, that's what you're doing with flowers. Yes, I vaguely recall the film... Metta, Sarah ======== #69511 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group sarahprocter... Thanks Connie! --- connie wrote: > Thanks, Sarah (and Nina) > > S: ... I just read the following in one of Nina's posts in the Vism > corner > (#68892): > > "The Tiika refers to a sutta text of the Samyutta Nikaya (IV) : ‘When > he, > bhikkhus, takes delight in and is enslaved by the image (the outer > appearance) of something, and his consciousness is fixed > on this and when he takes delight in and is enslaved by the details, at > > the time when he is about to die, then it happens that he will go to one > > of two destinies: he will be reborn in hell or in the womb of an > animal.’" > .... > S: I expect this was what Connie was referring to. > > Does anyone know which sutta in SN (1V) it is referring to? > > C: That's it! I knew I'd just recently read it somewhere. Anyway, #235 > > (8) The Exposition on Burning (pp1233-6 in the 2000 PTS Connected > Discourses) > > << ...better for the eye faculty to be lacerated by a red-hot iron pin > burning, blazing, and glowing, than for one to grasp the sign through > the features in a form cognizable by the eye. For if consciousness should stand tied to gratification in the sign or in the features, and if one should die on that occasion, it is possible that one will go to one of two destinations: hell or the animal realm. Having seen this danger, I speak thus. >> > > similarly for the ear, nose, tongue & body faculties. <...> .... S: Thx for doing my work for me...! Metta, Sarah ======== #69512 From: "robmoult" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Rob, > > Thanks for your interesting reply. Just a couple of comments: > > R: "Yes, I am saying that objects of mind-door processes are ideas or > concepts, and "memories" fall under this classification. [note: to be > technically accurate, there is one type of mind door process which > takes rupas as object]." > > L: What about objects of pa~n~naa? ===== It makes no difference if the mental state has panna or not. ===== > Also can't we love love or hate hate even as they arise? > It seems so. ===== Only one mental state arises at a time. If the current mental state (the mental state which experiences) takes some past mental state as object then the experienced mental state is not in the present moment. Of course, the experienced mental state may be a billionth of a second old, but it is still not in the present moment. Of course we can love love or hate hate, but the first "love" does the experiencing in the present moment and the second "love" is that what is experienced, a past object. ===== > Plus it seems that some memories are very realistic, not necessarily what I > would call a memory of a concept. ===== I would think that a memory of something that arose a billionth of a second ago would be very realistic :-) ===== > When kamma is the object of a bhavanga citta is that kamma a concept? > ===== Yes. Objects of bhavanga cittas are always past objects and that makes them concepts. In fact, when kamma is the object of the death process, it is always a concept (past object) whereas when sign of kamma or sign of destiny are the object of the death process, they may be either past objects (concepts) or present objects. However, once we are talking about bhavanga cittas, then the object is always a past object. ===== > With regard to the "sum total of your kammic dept", I was wondering if mindfulness of a > crime, for example, would incur akusala vipaka citta? I think the answer is yes if akusala > javana citta arises and then that same citta becomes an object of mindfulness. [Notice the > stretching of the present moment.] > ===== You have to be careful of your use of the term "mindfulness". All mental states with "mindfulness" are wholesome. Are you sure that you are not mixing "mindfulness" with "concentration"; when a hunter focuses as he pulls the trigger, there is concentration but no mindfulness. Concentration arises in both wholesome and unwholesome mental states. Metta, Rob M :-) #69513 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika nilovg Hi Larry, you wrote this before my trip, and meanwhile rob M answered. Especially his post today will clarify things. That object of the last javanacittas is condiitoned by kamma. Rather than produced. Anything else I can add? As to jhaanacittas conditioning rebirth, this will come in the next paras. Nina. Op 9-mrt-2007, om 7:14 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > L: What is the term for objects of consciousness that arise because of > kamma? "Kamma produced"? #69514 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika nilovg Dear Azita, The last javanacittas are different from those arising throughout life. They have kamma, sign of kamma or future destiny as object. Then the rebirth-citta and all bhavangacittas take the same object. The javanacittas throughout life are kusala cittas or akusala cittas, and they are conditioned by anusaya, latent tendencies and aasaya, accumulated good and bad inclinations. Nina. Op 12-mrt-2007, om 8:13 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > I am a little puzzled about how it comes about that > the javana cittas just before cuticitta have this 'sign of past > kamma' as object. > > Are these javana cittas different from other javana cittas? Is > there some 'rule' that states that this kamma-sign thingie must > arise just before cuti citta? I'm having some difficulty wording > this question because it seems like 'an odd one out'. Can javana > cittas thro out one lifespan have this sign of kamma or is it only > that one particular set of javanas? #69515 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, --- robmoult wrote: > Ooooooooooooooooooooooops!!! <...> > It is important to delfate one's ego every so often. .... S: Good point! We all make mistakes and it's another opportunity to appreciate the great wisdom of the Buddha! Nothing to be concerned about unless there's too much attachment to that ego:-). All the points that come up from mistakes are good for further discussion and reflection too. Like James, I think the post you wrote to him was very clearly stated, #69463. Like him, too, I hope you'll stay around to answer more questions:). Metta, Sarah ======== #69516 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-))( Re: New Pic!) sarahprocter... Hi James, (RobM, Han, Phil & all) --- buddhatrue wrote: > Most importantly, this metaphor of fire is just a metaphor. If you > view the metaphor in the incorrect manner, the teaching becomes > lost. Sarah, please, stop implying that paranibbana is annihilation > of the five khandas, because it isn't. You are unnecessarily > frightening people. .... S: What about 'cessation of the five khandhas? SN 12:68 Kosambi "Friend Savi.t.tha, apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it, I know this, I see this: 'Nibbana is the cessation of existence.'" [note: "bhavanirodho nibbaana.m. Spk: Nibbaana is the cessation of the five aggregates."] .... <...> > > S: Ok. Still, as Nina said, the last citta of the present life is > always > > cuti-citta (death consciousness), even for an arahant. > > James: No, this could not possibly be true!! If the Abhidhamma > states this, it is quite mistaken. The arahant doesn't experience > any type of death consciousness. ... S: SN 12:68 again "Friend Savi.t.tha, apart from faith.....I know this, I see this: 'With the cessation of birth comes cessation of aging and death'." CMA 5.37 "Death & Rebirth-Linking" "To one who is on the verge of death, either at the end of a cognitive process or at the dissolution of the life-continuum, the death consciousness, the consummation of the present life, arises and ceases in the way of death." "Guide to #40 on Determination of Rebirth" "Of course those who have reached the path and fruit of Arahantship do not take rebirth in any plane after death." .... >HELLO!! The Buddha specifically > called nibbana the "deathless". He didn't call it the "one more > death and then deathless"...it is the "deathless" period, the end. > > For the arahant, > > this is not succeeded by a patisandhi citta (birth consciousness)as > usual. > > James: Of course not because there is no clinging, because there is > no death consciousness in the first place! ... S: Death consciousness is an unavoidable result of the same kamma which produced the birth consciousness of that life. Whilst there is ignorance which leads to becoming, death is inevitable, even for the Buddha. [Perhaps Rob M can add some comments if you still disagree]. ... > > S: When there is confidence there is calm, mindfulness and > equanimity too. > > If this is what you mean by 'dry, unemotional, and passive', ok:-). > > James: Sarah, I can see that we are going to disagree on this one > too. I don't know why you see everything associated with Buddhism as > being calm, mindful, and full of equanimity. Samvega and Saddha are > not unemotional states. Does an arahant have either samvega or > saddha? No. ... S: Are you sure? Saddha arises with all sobhana cittas. If you don't wish to check in 'Cetasikas', ask Rob M:-). Samvegga refers to viriya (right effort)accompanying panna. Again all sobhana cittas are accompanied by (sobhana) viriya. .... >An arahant doesn't have a sense of urgency because > he/she has done what needs to be done, and an arahant doesn't have > faith in the teachings because he/she directly knows the teachings. ... S: As I said before, saddha refers to the confidence or (grounded)faith in what is pure or wholesome. The arahant has the greatest saddha of all. I presume the same applies to samvegga. ... > Okay, I know you aren't going to get it- I keep trying and trying. > But maybe this post will be of benefit to someone else. ... S: ;-) ... > > S: ;-) At least you agree that righteous anger and emotional > outbursts are > > not the 'practice' of saddha (faith/confidence)! > > James: I'm not sure where this came from, but, yes, I don't think > that righteous anger and emotional outbursts are the proper practice > of saddha. However, that doesn't mean saddha is dry and > unemotional. It contains an element of heart-felt emotion. ... S: Saddha is always accompanied by calm and equanimity - never by any disturbance of any kind. .... >(And, as > far as myself, I can have a lot of anger and emotional outbursts when > I see people misrepresenting the Dhamma- but that doesn't mean it is > right. I still have work to do.) .... S: Well, with regard to Han and Phil's transgression corner too, there's a lot of work to be done in all our cases, I'm very sure. However, just appreciating what's right and what's wrong helps a lot. For example, if one has the idea that anger and emotional outbursts are somehow justified or worthy in some cases (such as when people are misrepresenting the Dhamma like me:)), there will be no urgency or faith in the value of wholesome states at such times. One will think that others and Society really are to blame for our reactions. So appreciating the truths of anatta, of kamma, of accumulations, of conditions, of present realities such as seeing and visible object really is the only way that the work really gets down as I see it. Thanks for the interesting discussion, James. If you still disagree with my comments (and I left the fire as there was still so much heat in it, lol), pls do ask RobM, Han, Phil or others for their comments which may be more to your liking!! Metta, Sarah =========== #69517 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theravada groups in Germany sarahprocter... Dear Renbin (Nina, RobM & Dieter), --- Ren Yang wrote: > Dear Dieter and Sarah, > > Thanks for providing the information. I'm from Malaysia and I will be > going to Halle to further my studies soon. I've come into contact with > a group of Theravadan Buddhists in Leipzig (http://www.budd-ges.de/). > They meet at different places once a month as they do not have a fixed > venue for activities at the moment. I would be very happy to join them > but I'm afraid my being not fluent in Deutsch might be a problem. Will > need some time to learn the language! ... S: I'm partly re-posting this for Nina's benefit as she probably didn't see it while she was on a trip. I hope you learn Deutsch quickly so you can join in easily. I'm sure most the group will also speak English and help you too. I'm sure Dieter and others here will be interested to hear how you find the group and what the activities are. .... > I'm interested in Buddhism because it allows inquiry about the > teachings and it also addresses the issues of the mind, which is very > rare in other religions that I know of. I'm still a novice although I > have called myself a Buddhist all my life. Hope to learn more through > the conversations in this group. .... S: You sound very modest. Do you come from Penang or K.L. or somewhere else? Rob M lives in Malaysia (near K.L.?) and teaches Abhidhamma there. Pls do join in any conversations or start any according to your interest. Nina, I mentioned to Renbin that I believe Abhidhamma in Daily Life is translated into German. Is this correct? Metta, Sarah ======= #69518 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:52 am Subject: Flowers for Phil ( was Re: All about formless planes) philofillet Hi Rob (and Sarah and all) Thanks. And really it's not upsettting or irritating me at all, just maybe an aspect of the clear comprehension of "suitability" - knowing what one can benefit from most in Dhamma at different times. > The Abhidhamma should not be viewed as an "intellectual exercise". > The Abhidhamma provides a framework for the understanding of our > everyday experience and this understanding will act as a condition > for the arising of insight. For example, in the Anupada Sutta (MN > 111), the Buddha praised Sàriputta for being able to detect some > twenty dhammas occurring together with the jhanas (including the > jhana factors) as they arise, persist and disappear. Yes, but what the great, great man of wisdom Sariputta could detect has little to do with what Phil the Recovering Porno Addict can detect! Know what I mean? My focus has to be on guarding the sense doors, making clearcut decisions about what is wholesome or wholesome and dropping the latter, stamping out proliferation, that sort of thing. I found this sutta which I think gets at this. It's An X, 2:"For one who is virtuous and endowed with virtue, there is no need for an acto of will: "May non-remorse arise in me!" It is a natural law, monks, that non-remorse will arise in one who is virtuous." And so on through gladness and the other jhana factors, concentration, and so on. But I think it is interesting to note that there is no inclusion of the development of virtue in this "natural law" - ie. what comes before this chain. There is hard grunt work to do in order to establish virtue. Not the kind of stuff that can be posted about, it's the kind of stuff you do or you don't - like scrubbing the bath. I thought of a simile of teaching a kid how to use a toilet. I don't have kids, as you know, but I imagine if one didn't train the kid to use the potty, he or she would just dump it wherever he or she wanted to. I think the mind has to be rather forcefully trained in this way to develop sila. The fine points that follow can be understood in this natural law way, this beautiful conditionality of the pattaya, (is that part of Abhdihamma or just a port of pleasure in Thailand? I used to know...) but until one has a tidy and morally consistent life, I personally don't think there is great value in getting caught up too deeply in considering fine points of Abhdihamma. But that is me, where I'm at. I just find it interesting and refreshing to have such a clear view of what needs to be done, that's all. I'm not trying to be a paccaya (that sounds better) party pooper! Metta, Phil #69519 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:31 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for helping me learn about this: Sarah: "Better! I'd just stress that to all intents and purposes, it is a 'present object' and referred to as such...I think again that it is referred to as being the same 'present'visible object, even though, strictly speaking, the visible object itself has fallen away. It is not a different v.o., like the teddy bear replacing the mother ... 'these objects present themselves naturally by virtue of having been seen, heard, smelt, tasted, and touched' - in other words, still the same present object, even if by way of a 'shadow'." Scott: Okay, I can see where I'm having trouble with this part at this point. It is not a different object although the 'original' object is gone. A bit paradoxical, but then that is so only because of too much thinking about it. Sarah: "It doesn't just appear (or be 'used') to/by sati and panna, but it appears to any cittas and cetasikas arising in the subsequent mind-door process, whether kusala or akusala. For example, if more commonly lobha arises following the sense-door process, the sense object appears/is used to/by lobha. I wouldn't say the 'original' object has 'long gone', because this only refers to the sense door process (or mind door process in the case of paccavekkana cittas etc)that has just fallen away." Scott: Can you clarify the above? In the case of lobha, say, in relation to sound, are you referring now to concept which is proliferated on the basis of colour? I hear a new song by my favourite band and now I must have the new release which features the track I now like. The sound I heard was not known as just sound but is now 'music' and I want to have it and hear it again and again. The original object has gone. But you're saying the same object appears again at each juncture (or to each subsequent citta) of the process. Sarah: "One that can be found in the commentaries that I find helpful is in relation to paccavekhana or reviewing consciousness after the lokuttara cittas which have experienced nibbana have fallen away. The succeeding paccavekkhana cittas experience and review the path factors, nibbana, frution consciousness, the defilements eradicated and so on. None of this is by thinking but by direct realization. The path factors, nibbana and so on are paramattha dhammas experienced as such, by way of navatabba.(The same applies to the reviewing cittas immediately succeeding jhana experiences and so on.)...The same principle applies to sense door realities when experienced by the succeeding mind door process...The path cittas, however, have fallen away. Both are known by the paccavekkana cittas in rapid successions. Also the defilements eradicated are directly known as such." Scott: In the notation on paccavekkhana-~naana, Nyanatiloka states that this can refer to 'the recollected mental image...[of] any experience just passed'. So, yeah, as you make clear above, this is the process in general, it seems. It is always, if I'm getting it, the na-vatabba object as each citta in a series experiences the object which 'instigated' the process, even though the object itself has long since fallen away. It is said to be the same object. In other words, there are the specific cases of this reviewing, as you give in relation to path factors, etc., and this is also the general process whereby any object comes to be taken by citta, one after another in a series. Is this so? Sarah: "...As you know, sanna arises with each citta. Without sanna marking and remembering the object at each of these moments, any such 'recollection' or marking (with whatever kind of cittas -akusala, kusala or even kiriya cittas of the arahant) would be impossible. This is why it has its own khandha." Scott: Okay, just naturally since sa~n~na always accompanies citta and always performs its function. Thanks, Sarah. Please fine-tune this, if you don't mind the pedantry, so I can get it just so... Sincerely, Scott. #69520 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:06 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. scottduncan2 Sarah, Sorry... Scott: Can you clarify the above? In the case of lobha, say, in relation to sound, are you referring now to concept which is proliferated on the basis of *colour*? I hear a new song by my favourite band and now I must have the new release which features the track I now like. The sound I heard was not known as just sound but is now 'music' and I want to have it and hear it again and again. The original object has gone. But you're saying the same object appears again at each juncture (or to each subsequent citta) of the process. Cursed synaesthesia! ...concept which is proliferated on the basis of 'sound' not 'colour', of course... S. #69521 From: connie Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:28 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (44) nichiconn Dear Friends, part 3 of 3, Therii Sakulaa. arahatta.m pana patvaa kataadhikaarataaya dibbacakkhu~naa.ne ci.n.navasii ahosi; tena na.m satthaa dibbacakkhukaana.m bhikkhuniina.m agga.t.thaane .thapesi; saa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa piitisomanassajaataa udaanavasena- 97. "agaarasmi.m vasantiiha.m, dhamma.m sutvaana bhikkhuno; addasa.m viraja.m dhamma.m, nibbaana.m padamaccuta.m. 98. "Saaha.m putta.m dhiitara~nca, dhanadha~n~na~nca cha.d.diya; kese chedaapayitvaana, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m. 99. "Sikkhamaanaa aha.m santii, bhaaventii maggama~njasa.m; pahaasi.m raagadosa~nca, tadeka.t.the ca aasave. 100. "Bhikkhunii upasampajja, pubbajaatimanussari.m; dibbacakkhu visodhita.m, vimala.m saadhubhaavita.m. 101. "Sa"nkhaare parato disvaa, hetujaate palokite; pahaasi.m aasave sabbe, siitibhuutaamhi nibbutaa"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. Then after attaining Arahatship, because of the fact she had done meritorious deeds, she was one who had mastery of knowledge through the divine eye. Accordingly, the Teacher placed her as foremost among the bhikkhuniis who possess the divine eye. And she looked over her attainment, and joy and gladness having arisen, she spoke these verses as her solemn utterance: 97. Living in a house, I heard the Doctrine from a bhikkhu and saw the stainless Doctrine, quenching, the unshaken state. 98. I abandoned son and daughter and money and gain. I had my hair cut off and went forth into the homeless state. 99. I was a trainee. Developing the straight way, I eliminated desire and hatred and the taints that are combined with these. 100. I was ordained as a bhikkhu and recollected that I had been born before. The divine eye has been purified. It is spotless, well developed. 101. Seeing the formations as other, arisen causally, liable to dissolution, I eliminated all the taints. I have become cool, quenched. Mrs. RD: While yet I dwelt as matron in the house, I heard a Brother setting forth the Norm. I SAW that Norm, the Pure, the Passionless, Track to Nibbana, past decease and birth. (97) Thereat I left my daughter, left my son, I left my treasures and my stores of grain; I called for robes and razors, cut my hair, And gat me forth into the homeless life. (98) And first as novice, virtuous and keen To cultivate the upward mounting Way, I cast out lust and with it all ill-will, And therewith, one by one, the deadly Drugs. (99) Then to the Bhikkhunii of ripening power Rose in a vision mem'ries of the past. Limpid and clear the mystic vistas grew, Expanding by persistent exercise. (100) Act, speech and thought I saw as not myself, *220 Children of cause, fleeting, impermanent. And now, with every poisonous Drug cast out, Cool and serene I see Nibbana's peace. (101) *220 Parato disvaa, lit., having seen as Other - i.e., says the Commentary, following the Pitakas (e.g., Majjh. Nik., i. 500), as without Soul or Ego The oldest books specify compounds of act, word, and thought as sankhaara's. Tattha agaarasmi.m vasantiiha.m, dhamma.m sutvaana bhikkhunoti aha.m pubbe agaaramajjhe vasamaanaa a~n~natarassa bhinnakilesassa bhikkhuno santike catusaccagabbha.m dhammakatha.m sutvaa. Addasa.m viraja.m dhamma.m, nibbaana.m padamaccutanti raagarajaadiina.m abhaavena viraja.m, vaanato nikkhantattaa nibbaana.m, cavanaabhaavato adhigataana.m accutihetutaaya ca nibbaana.m accuta.m, padanti ca laddhanaama.m asa"nkhatadhamma.m, sahassanayapa.tima.n.ditena dassanasa"nkhaatena dhammacakkhunaa addasa.m passi.m. 97. There, living (vasantii) in a house (agaarasmi.m), I heard (sutvaana) the Doctrine (dhamma.m) from a bhikkhu means: before, when I was living (aha.m ... vasamaanaa) amid [the cares of] the household life (araaramajhe), I heard (sutvaa) a talk on the Doctrine (dhamma-katha.m) that contiained the four [noble] truths from a certain bhikkhu who was without defilements. [I] saw (addasa.m) the stainless Doctrine, quenching, the unshaken state means: stainless because of the absence of the impurities of passion ,etc; quenching because of the state of giving up lust. And it received the name quenching, the unshaken state through having reached the state of the absence of passing away and through the condition of not falling [ie, not dying]. I saw (addasa.m = passi.m) the unconditioned state with the divine eye, which is a synonym for seeing (dassana-sa"nkhaatena) and is adorned with a thousand methods. Saahanti saa aha.m vuttappakaarena sotaapannaa homi. 98. I (saaha.m ["that same I"]) means: this is a way of saying, "I (saa asha.m) was a Stream-Winner. Sikkhamaanaa aha.m santiiti aha.m sikkhamaanaava samaanaa pabbajitvaa vasse aparipu.n.ne eva. Bhaaventii maggama~njasanti majjhimapa.tipattibhaavato a~njasa.m uparimagga.m uppaadentii. Tadeka.t.the ca aasaveti raagadosehi sahajeka.t.the pahaaneka.t.the ca tatiyamaggavajjhe aasave pahaasi.m samucchindi.m. 99. I was a trainee means: having gone forth, I was only a trainee, not having completed one year. Developing (bhaaventii) the straight (a~njasa.m) way (maggam) means: producing (uppaadentii) the stright way upwards (uparimaggam) thanks to the existence of the middle way (majjhima-pa.tipatti-bhaavato). The taints that are combined with these (tad-eka.t.the) means: I eliminated, I cut off, the taints, which are combined with being born together (sahajeka.t.the) with hatred and desire and are combined in their abandonment (pahaaneka.t.the), and which are to be destroyed by the third path. Bhikkhunii upasampajjaati vasse paripu.n.ne upasampajjitvaa bhikkhunii hutvaa. Vimalanti avijjaadiihi upakkilesehi vimuttataaya vigatamala.m, saadhu sakkacca sammadeva bhaavita.m, saadhuuhi vaa buddhaadiihi bhaavita.m uppaadita.m dibbacakkhu visodhitanti sambandho. 100. I was ordained as a bhikkhunii means: I was [fully] ordained as a bhikkhuni at the end of a year. Spotless means: because it is free from imputities such as ignorance, etc, it is without stain. Well (saadhu) means: thoroughly, properly developed; or, developed, produced, by good people (saadhuuhi) such as the Buddha, etc, and the connection is with the divine eye that has been properly purified. Sa"nkhaareti tebhuumakasa"nkhaare. Paratoti anattato. Hetujaateti paccayuppanne. Palokiteti palujjanasabhaave pabha"ngune pa~n~naacakkhunaa disvaa. Pahaasi.m aasave sabbeti aggamaggena avasi.t.the sabbepi aasave pajahi.m, khepesinti attho. Sesa.m vuttanayameva. Sakulaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 101. Formations (sa"nkhaare) means: the formations of the three planes [of existence] (te-bhuumaka-sa"nkhaare). Other means: no-self. Arisen causally (hetu-jaate) means: arisen through a cause (paccayu-ppanne). Liable to dissolution means: seeing it with my eye of wisdom as having the nature of breaking up, as being perishable. I eliminated (pahaasi.m) all the taints means: I abandoned (pajahi.m), I destroyed, all the remaining taints through th ehighest path. That is the meaning. The meaning of the rest has been explained. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Sakulaa. ==== peace, connie #69522 From: connie Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:29 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing: 4. 'And hear another reason, O king, for the same thing. Suppose some monarch were to raise from his subjects a righteous tax, and then by the issue of a command were to bestow thereout a gift, would that monarch, O king, enjoy any happiness on that account, would that be a gift leading to rebirth in states of bliss?' 'Certainly, Sir. What can be said against it? On that account the monarch would receive a hundred thousandfold, he might become a king of kings, a god above the gods, or Brahmaa lord of the Brahmaa gods, or a chief among the Samanas, or a leader of the Brahmans, or the most excellent among the Arahats.' 'Then, O king, a gift given in such a way as to bring sorrow upon others does bring forth fruit in happiness, does lead to rebirth in states of bliss--inasmuch as that monarch by giving as a gift what was gained by harassing his people with taxation would enjoy such exceeding fame and glory.' 5. 'But, venerable Naagasena, what was given by Vessantara the king was an excessive gift; in that he gave his own wife as wife to another man, and his own children, his only ones, into slavery to a Brahman. And excessive giving is by the wise in the world held worthy of censure and of blame. Just, Naagasena, as under too much weight the axle-tree of a cart would break, or a ship would sink, as his food would disagree with him who ate too much, or the crops would be ruined by too heavy rain, or bankruptcy would follow too lavish generosity, or fever would come from too much heat, or a man would go mad from excessive lust, or become guilty of an offence through excessive anger, or fall into sin through excessive stupidity, or into the power of robbers through too much avarice, or be ruined by needless fear, or as a river would overflow through excessive inflow, or a thunderbolt fall through too much wind, or porridge boil over through too hot a fire, or a man who wandered about too much 1 would not live long-just, so, Naagasena, is excessive giving held by the wise in the world as worthy of censure and of blame. And as king Vessantara's gift was excessive [278] no good result could be expected from it.' === to be continued, connie. #69523 From: connie Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:29 am Subject: Re: ..."scrambled brains" nichiconn Dear Colette, Not much time today but wanted to apologize. I assumed you knew Buddhaghosa (no relation to Vasubandhu) was the author, or maybe editor would be better, of the more or less encyclopedic over-view of Theravadan thought, the Vissudhimagga (and some other Theravadan Commentarial books)... Nina's going through ch. 17 of the V. and the Commentary on it with us here. see you later, connie #69524 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:41 am Subject: Re: Birth & Death Consciousness and Time [Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-)) ...] upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 3/13/07 10:28:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, James (and Sarah, and all) - > > > James, there is something I've been thinking about that is > related, > >though tangentially, to what you wrote here. It has to do with the > view of time > >incorporated in a world view. It seems to me that the world view of > Abhidhamma > >or at least of the commentaries, though not the suttas, is that of > a discrete > >time proceeding like the integers, so that for each moment of time, > there is > >an immediately preceding moment and an immediately succeeding one. > This is not > >the view of time incorporated in the mathematics of modern physics, > whose > >time line consists of the real numbers. In this view of time, at > any moment of > >time, there is no immediate predecessor moment and no immediate > successor > >moment! > > > Okay, I am very, very tired today, so I probably don't get what it is > that you are saying, but I will tackle it anyway. Then you can write > back to clarify. > > You write that in the Abhidhamma sense of time, there is always a > proceeding moment and a succeeding moment to each dhamma, although in > real time there are no such things as "moments" and time is a > continuous flow. Am I following you so far? (BTW, I'm really not > sure what this has to do with annihilation view. ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- Howard: It has to do with rebirth. In your prior post, there was mentioning of Sarah's comments on death consciousness as the last moment of the current life and birth consciousness as the first moment of life of the next - two successive states, and that led me to the "immediate successor businesss" bringing certain questionable presuppositions with it. It was in that regard that I wrote with respect to the real-line model of time as applied to Buddhist lifetime view "In that model of time, any moment is either a moment preceded by infinitely many moments within that lifetime or succeeded by infinitely many moments within that lifetime or both. It may be a first, last, or intermediate moment of that life, but whichever it is, there is no immediate predecessor and no immediate successor. If that moment is the last of the current life, there is no first moment of the next, for there is no immediate successor moment. If that moment is the first of the next life, there is no last moment of the prior life, for there is no immediate-predecessor moment. The real-line view of time is one which enables all the successes of modern physics, and, moreover, the integers are all incorporated within the reals, so it is complete in that sense." I did then add the disclaimer that this doesn't rule out discretely successive moments of *consciously registered* experience. As I said, this is all just tangential to the main thrust of your post. ------------------------------------------------ > > Anyway, I don't think that what you believe is the Abhidhamma sense > of time is really the Abhidhamma- it's just the Abhidhamma as > presented in this group. Allow me to quote from Karunadasa "The > Dhamma Theory": > > "The foregoing observations should show that the mental as well as > the material dhammas are not actually separable one from another. In > the case of the mental dhammas, the term used is satsattha > (conjoined); in the case of the material dhammas, the term used is > avinibbhoga (inseparable). This raises the question why the dhammas > are presented as a plurality. The answer is that, although they are > not actually separable, yet they are distinguishable (vibhagavanta) > one from another. It is this distinguishability that serves as the > foundation of the dhamma theory." > > So, dhammas occur during real time, not during discrete intervals. > Am I getting anywhere close to what you are talking about?? LOL! ---------------------------------------------- Howard: It's close, but not quite there. I don't think that the Abhidhammic view is a continuous one. Abhidhamma views experience not as a flow but as a sequence of discrete mindstates, each with an immediate predecessor and an immediate successor, and though these states are "contiguous" (as are the integers when intermediate non-integer rationals and irrationals are ignored), between any two mind moments, there are only finitely-many mind moments, which is the discrete topology. (In Abhidhamma, each mindstate needs to be thought of a sharply-delineated event, without "fuzzy edges", perhaps even as a single infinitessimal point, during which no change occurs. Later commentary added three stages of rising, stasis, and decline - a step in the right direction, IMO, but there was no explanation of which I'm aware of the nature of the three stages, i.e. whether they pertained to changing intensity or what, and other than for those stages, I'm not aware of any change or development within a mindstate in the Abhidhammic-commentarial presentation. Also, the sharp boundaries remained, so that each state has immediate predecessor and successor states, maintaining the discrete model.) It seems to me that the staccato, stop-motion, sequence-of-frames perspective is the Abhidhammic one, and, IMO, it is one which takes an unexamined, common-sense conventional perspective that not even most ordinary folks accept except figuratively - as a useful way of speaking [e.g., "the last time I saw you", when a drop of thought shows that there really was no pinpointable precise point in time that can be identified as such], and transforms that conventional perspective into a "theory of reality". ------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > > ========================= With metta, Howard #69525 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:17 am Subject: Re: Birth & Death Consciousness and Time [Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-)) ...] nilovg Hi Howard and James, I am not contending anything of what you say, but I find the Visuddhimagga and Tiika very complete, very precise, considering all aspects. I quote some of my studies re the five khandhas (Vis. Ch XIV): We read in the ‘Expositor” (p. 78):