#74000 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nilovg Dear Connie, I do not have the text either. I suspect where the trouble is. Modern linguists accuse the commentators of being unscientific with word derivations. But the Commentators had no intention to be linguistics. They gave word associations in order to help people to understand the real meaning of dhammas. This is another field, different from linguistics. Nina. Op 3-jul-2007, om 19:45 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > I quite agree & hoped someone else might look, but I don't have > Norman's > Elders' Verses. > I'm curious as to the entire "list of words" and why the translator > thinks > he knows better than Dhammapaala #74001 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 3:11 am Subject: Death, just like now. nilovg Dear Ramesh, thank you for your post. ---------- R: Helping done with wrong view is the totally failure to overcome others dhukkha..instead of that it increases others more intensivelly..and why to crave for kusala..try to remove ours suffering first..removing impurity from our citta feels every one happy and very much peace.. -------- N: You are right, helping is not effective when done with wrong view. I could add: or with conceit. We should realize our cittas when helping. Abhidhamma! In the ultimate sense there is not me nor the other person. If we understand this more deeply helping can become more effective. ------- R: if u try to overcome others dhukkha to help him but he can not able to understand the reason behind it then u can not do anything..don't morn for this thing that u can not able to do kusala and failed to remove that person from misery..buddha also shows path of nibbana to so much people but only few are succeded in it...in becoming arahant..but on this buddha never feels that they r hardly do any kusala..on that they told practically that I am here only to show the Path ..It depends upon everones capability to reach the final destination.. ------ N: If we think of a result in our efforts to help others it is useless. As you say: < I am here only to show the Path ..It depends upon everones capability to reach the final destination.> Nina. #74002 From: connie Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 4:29 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nichiconn dear friends, 8. A.t.thakanipaato 1. Siisuupacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 6 On verse: 200. "Sabbo aadiipito loko, sabbo loko padiipito; sabbo pajjalito loko, sabbo loko pakampito. 200. The whole world is ablaze. The whole world has flared up. The whole world is blazing. The whole world is shaken. txt: Sabbo aadiipito lokoti, maara, na kevala.m tayaa vuttakaamalokoyeva dhaatuttayasa~n~nito, sabbopi loko raagaggi-aadiihi ekaadasahi aaditto. Tehiyeva punappuna.m aadiipitataaya padiipito. Nirantara.m ekajaaliibhuutataaya pajjalito. Ta.nhaaya sabbakilesehi ca ito cito ca kampitataaya calitataaya pakampito. Pruitt: 200. The whole world is ablaze means: not only the world of sensual pleasures you speak of that is called the three elements, Maara, but the whole world is burning with the eleven fires of passion, etc.* And because of the fact of being ablaze (aadipita-taaya) with them over and over again, it has flared up (padiipito); because it has become a continuous single flame, it blazed forth; because it is unsteady through being shaken (kampitataaya) here and there by craving and all the defilements, it is shaken (pakampito). * The eleven fires are enumerated in the discourse given by the Buddha to the Kassapa brothers and their followers, all of whom had been fire worshippers (Vin I 34 [BD IV], S IV 19 [KS IV 10f.] {"Bhikkhus, all is burning..."}): passion (raaga), hatred (dosa), delusion (moha), birth (jaati), old age (jara), death (mara.na), grief (soka), lamentation (parideva), misery (dukkha), distress (domanassa), and despair (upaayaasa). These references should be added in CPD s.vv. 'ekaadasa and akaadas'-aggi, q.v. for other references. (Dhp-a III 103 should read line 6 rather than line 16). The first three fires are given at D III 217 [LDB 484, 32). ===tbc, connie #74003 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. TGrand458@... Hi Nina In a message dated 7/4/2007 2:48:45 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: you made me laugh. .............................................. NEW TG: Well that's good! Cause this post may make you cry. ;-) ............................................ I am glad my Abh in DL helped you to some extent. The example of seeing and hearing I gave you was not a case of absence condition, but I wanted to show, that in general seeing has to be absent for hearing to arise. I wanted to spare you all the details of the sense-door adverting-consciousdetails of Absence condition is very precise. It only concerns citta, no tripod. When you study Abhidhamma you will notice that every item has a very precise meaning. There is no room for speculating and giving one's own interpretation about the conventional terms used. This is not meant personal, TG. There is Abhidhamma in the Suttanta and also in the Vinaya. You wrote something I find significant: See, that is it: An example from the Vinaya (Mahaavagga, I, 20. 24-21.4, Fire sutta): < Monks, everything is burning. And what is everything that is burning? The eye...visible object...seeing.burning? The burning? Th words the feeling which arises from impingement on the eye, be it pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that too is burning. With what is it burning? I say it is burning with the fire of passion, with the fire of hatred, with the fire of stupidity; it is burning because of birth, ageing, dying, because of grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair...The ear is burning, sounds are burning...the nose is burning....Seeing it thus, monks, the instructed disciple of the ariyans disregards the eye...disregarding he is dispassionate; through dispassion he is freed; in freedom the knowledge comes to be, 'I am freed', and he comprehends: Destroyed is birth, lived is the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such." And while this discourse was being uttered, the minds of these thousand monks were freed from the cankers without grasping.> Note the end. They could not become arahats without the development of vipassana/satipatthof vip ................................................... NEW TG: Not arguing against that. My whole deal is insight development and mindfulness...(though insight also incorporates much analytical reasoning which you under-credit in your writings IMO.) Note in the Sutta you provided... It is not seeing the elements as "utimate realities with their own characteristics" which is at issue. It is seeing them as "afflicting" which is at issue. Then, the higher insight "disregards" the elements. Disregards! This is the same stuff I've been saying all along. "Ultimate Realities" is a non-issue. Not only that, its the wrong issue. .................................................... Direct awareness and understanding of all realities ............................................. NEW TG: Replace the word "realities" with "elements" and I could agree. Elements are better described and understood as "conditional resultants" without "their own" characteristics. This does not mean that they cannot still be monitored with mindfulness. They can be and they should be. But the conditional make-up of the elements needs to be well embedded as part of the insight process. I feel that seeing them as "ultimate realities with their own characteristics" is a big step in the wrong direction. ................................................ that appeared through six doorways. Perhaps our sensibilities are different. I see here Abhidhamma and satipatthana in the sutta. Realities as they appear through each of the doorways separately, one at a time, mentioned in this sutta should be seen as impermanent and non-self. ................................................. NEW TG: You are "reading into" this Sutta a whole lot of stuff that it doesn't say. Your "sensibility" of the Suttas is highly affected by a whole lot of commentary that is not part of the Suttas IMO. Therefore, your "Sutta sensibility" is not garnered from the Suttas. Or at least, much of it is not. .................................................... I am thinking of what Connie and Rob K wrote as to the Abhidhamma: < 'It was, after all, empty-headed and foolish of my teacher to leave the rest of the Buddha's word aside, and teach me the Abhidhamma first!' -- Naagasena (at his second day of going forth). And the lady said to Naagasena: 'I am old, friend Naagasena. Let the thanksgiving be from the deeper things of the faith.'> Let the thanksgiving be from the Abhidhamma, which enables us to know the deeper things of the faith. It depends on your interest how many details of the Abhidhamma you wish to study, but the basics, such as seeing, visible object, eyedoor, the dhammas appearing through the different doorways are an essential support for satipatthana. Thanksgiving, thanksgiving. Nina. ........................................... NEW TG: I think we're in pretty good agreement as to the process and importance of mindfulness and insight. The disagreement comes in how the elements are characterized. I honestly believe that you make "entities" (mentally) when you give such lofty status to these mere "afflicting conditions" by calling them "Dhammas" that are "ultimate realities with their own characteristics." There's simply no need to do so. At the very least, this "builds them up" and substantiates them, when what they really need is to be "knocked down"; i.e., detached from. I think from your point of view you think you are making an important point in distinguishing "actualities" from "concepts." That's an interesting point that sometimes does need to be made, but I think your approach pays too high a price and goes overboard by creating a whole new problem of over-substantiating phenomena. In doing so, I'd suspect that detachment becomes more difficult for those following this outlook. I'm still hoping you to prove me wrong by becoming enlightened! TG OUT #74004 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 5:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for your reply, and your very kind words (with which I am trying to be patient): TG: "Sorry about your wife passing." Scott: As strange as it seems this event was, while having been the most difficult thing to have arisen for me thus far, also the best since it was condition for an encounter with the Dhamma. You know, we all debate heartily, but we've all had Dhamma arise for us - how great is that? A human birth and encountering Dhamma. Its beautiful, man. We discuss impermanence, and although I have no problem with seeing that impermanence finds its deepest definition in reference to the momentaneity of dhammas, it was with a consideration of the concept of impermanence applied to the grosser level of concepts is where the lesson began. Dead is really dead and gone is really gone. Here today, gone tomorrow - stuff like that. And the total lack of control one has over these events is so staggering that it becomes pristine. And then there is the chance to see that letting go is not something one agrees to do or decides to do - it happens. The house we worked to build on the land we searched to find - all sold and gone in weeks. With the Dhamma all these things can subside. I clung to a wife, to a house, to a small farm - to everything - I still do (this coffee is really delicious this morning; what a sunrise; and 'man, is that bass line that McCartney plays on 'I Want You You're So Heavy ever great'), I guess, but something has changed. The chance to see that one's strivings are impersonal, that all the work one imagines one does to lay claim to one's corner of the world is really the result of complex conditions and that all this rolls on with complete and utter disregard for this bubble I call myself - this impudent, conceited little bubble. TG: "Being lazy, I decided to become the first person enlightened in English only. LOL...Your diligence in handling Pali in your analysis is very commendable." Scott: I like that. Perhaps there will be Pali subtitles. Regarding the Pali, I just like to see what has come down to us, what the suttas say 'in the original'. I really don't care a whit to know what my opinion on Dhamma is - I don't like to have one (although I do). I want to know what the Dhamma is. TG: "I also meandered through various doctrine (mostly Mahayana) for two years and ended up, in that phase, somewhat specializing in Nagarjuna due to his relentless no-self position. Then I picked up the Suttas and started reading them. Took about two months to realize that this was something incredibly deeper and more real (or actual) than what I had read before. Never looked back, rarely read secondary material, but did study Abhidhamma stuff pretty intently for 4 or 5 years. Even read Nina's book 3 times... Scott: Thanks for the brief history. There is so much confusing stuff when one first encounters Buddhism. Although likely controversial, here is where the difficult (for me) to conceptualise stuff about accumulations comes in. Although I don't understand it yet - as in thinking about it isn't the way to go - experience shows that 'accumulations' have an effect. The Pa.t.thana describes conditioning dhammas, conditioned dhammas, and conditioning forces. This thing with anusaya - all the latent tendencies which lie dormant within the citta, don't arise, yet have an effect. Nina wrote: N: "It is somewhat complicated here, because anusaya itself does not arise, it is dormant in the citta. I did not follow the original thread and the sutta, so I do not know whether it is only in mind- door processes. But as soon as I see anusaya, I remember: it does not arise in any process. It can condition the arising of akusala citta." Scott: While not having a good conceptual grasp of this, I know from experience how things not present before are suddenly present and how this depends on various other things - like the variously constituted moments of consciousness arising in relation to 'the death of a wife', for example - to be so. Old Scott: "Yeah, I can really say I'm a beginner and have a lot to read. You are so bright." NEW TG: "LOL Now you're just toying with me huh?" Scott: No, I was trying to say you are smart. Me too - ("Three years is good enough. I think you're a Buddhist prodigy...") So what? Its hard to be patient with one's so-called intellect. Better to remember that it is only dhammas - TG and Scott are not geniuses - they don't even exist, really - not to court controversy. TG: "The Suttas need years of examining and reflection. When I write my "wild theories," its something I've been considering, through analysis and direct observation, for decades. How could someone, hearing them for the first time, "see in them" what I see? They really can't ... especially if they reject them out of hand without even trying to insightfully see what it is I'm saying...which is usually what happens in this group. (We're all pretty locked into our thinking.) And I would say that pretty much all my ideas on the suttas come from the suttas in conjunction with direct observation." Scott: Its true. I'm guilty of wanting to dismiss all obvious 'own theories' but I start with my own. As I mentioned, I don't care one bit to know what sort of theory I can come up with about anything. I see them come up. I'll get it wrong. Just the facts, please. TG: "That said, I admit to seeing the Four Great Elements in a more radical way than can be garnered from a "straight" reading of the suttas. I just wish the Buddha was around so I could ask him about it. :-)" Scott: Yeah, that would be something. It humbling to think that, while a Buddha had arisen and was in the world, this 'continuity' was busy 'fluxing' in some realm or other with no conditions to see the Teacher. As I said, what a chance now to have come, even in this late era, to the Dhamma while it is here in some form to be encountered. TG: "IMO, years of studying Suttas is not only for becoming well informed by its contents, but even more importantly, to develop the sensibility to the teachings that allow one to put in its proper perspective the various levels and intents of the teachings. (I'm not sure if this "sensibility" can be developed or if someone just has to have it to begin with...but probably both.) Without this, one can take any position based on the Suttas because the suttas say opposite things at various times. The teaching is actually consistent, but due to the various circumstances and levels it is taught at, it may sound like conflicting statements at times." Scott: I'd say, as well, that the 'sensibility' can arise, due to conditions, and that it develops, again due to conditions. No one does the developing of course, but you've heard that elsewhere... Thanks for the discussion. Sincerely, Scott. #74005 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:42 am Subject: Condiitons, Ch 6, no 1. Dependence-condition. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 6 Dependence-Condition (Nissaya-Paccaya) The dependence-condition, nissaya-paccaya, refers to realities which condition other realities by being their support or foundation. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XVII, 79) about dependence-condition, which is here translated as support-condition: A state (dhamma) that assists in the mode of foundation and in the mode of support is a support-condition, as the earth is for trees, as canvas is for paintings, and so on. This type of condition refers to phenomena which are conascent (arising together) with the phenomena they condition as well as to phenomena which have arisen previously to the phenomena they condition. We read in the “Patthåna” (Analytical Exposition, 8) as to the dependence-condition for conascent phenomena: 1. The four immaterial khandhas are mutually related to one another by dependence-condition. 2. The four great Elements are mutually related to one another by dependence-condition. 3. At the moment of conception, nåma and rúpa are mutually related to one another by dependence-condition. 4. States, citta and cetasikas, are related to mind-produced rúpa by dependence condition. 5. The four Great Elements condition the derived rúpas by dependence- condition. As to the first class, the four nåma-kkhandhas are mutually related to one another by conascent dependence-condition: citta and cetasikas always arise together and they are depending on one another. Citta cannot arise without cetasikas and cetasikas cannot arise without citta. As we have seen, they are also related to one another by way of conascence, sahajåta, and by way of mutuality, aññamañña. The teaching of dependence-condition, nissaya paccaya, reminds us that citta and cetasikas need one another to perform their functions. Citta is the “chief” in cognizing an object, and cetasikas share the same object while they perform each their own function. Feeling, vedanå, and remembrance, saññå, are cetasikas which arise with each citta. Citta is different from cetasika, it does not feel or remember; citta cognizes or knows the object. Through awareness and right understanding developed in vipassanå the difference between citta and cetasika can gradually be known. Without awareness and right understanding there will only be theoretical knowledge of the way citta and cetasika condition each other by dependence-condition. ****** Nina. #74006 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:47 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 4, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the following sutta about three characteristics of a “believer”, someone who has great confidence in the teachings, and these are actually the characteristics of a sotåpanna who has eradicated stinginess and who has the “power” of confidence, saddhå, that is, unshakable confidence in the teachings. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Threes, Ch V, 42, Characteristics) that the Buddha said: “Monks, a believer is to be recognized by three characteristics. What three? He desires to see the virtuous; he desires to hear Saddhamma; with heart free from the taint of stinginess he dwells at home, a generous giver, clean handed, delighting in giving up, one to ask a favour of, one who delights to share gifts with others. By these three characteristics a believer is to be recognized as such....” The Commentary to this sutta, the “Manorathapúraní” relates a story of a woman with strong confidence who wanted to listen to the Dhamma. She put her small child under a tree and stood listening to the preaching of the Dhamma during the night. She saw that a snake bit her child, but she thought that if she would speak about this it would disturb the listening to the Dhamma. She thought about the fact that her child was going around in the cycle of birth and death and that in former lives he was many times her child. She wanted to practise the Dhamma, and she stood listening the whole night, developing understanding so that she became a sotåpanna. At daybreak the poison was withdrawn from the child’s body because of her realisation of the truth and her strong confidence in the truth. She took up her child and went away. The commentary adds that people who are like that are persons who have the wish to listen to the Dhamma. Some people may misunderstand this story and believe that the mother neglected her child. However, we should grasp the point brought forward by this story. When vipassanå has been developed paññå clearly sees the conditions for all that happens, it directly understands that vipåka is produced by kamma. When it is the right time for akusala vipåka nobody can prevent it. She saw the disadvantages of being in the cycle of birth and death, of being born again and again. In the course of the development of vipassanå, paññå sees more and more the disadvantages of the arising of nåma and rúpa. What arises has to fall away, it is dukkha. She had clearly understood that in the ultimate sense there is no mother, no child, only conditioned nåma and rúpa. She had the courage to face the truth and because of her confidence in the truth the poison in her child’s body was removed. ***** Nina. #74007 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nilovg Dear Connie, Thank you. I just posted to TG: All is on fire, Vinaya. Nina. Op 4-jul-2007, om 13:29 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > The eleven fires are enumerated in the discourse given by the > Buddha to > the Kassapa brothers and their followers, all of whom had been fire > worshippers (Vin I 34 [BD IV], S IV 19 [KS IV 10f.] {"Bhikkhus, all is > burning..."}): passion (raaga), hatred (dosa), delusion (moha), birth > (jaati), old age (jara), death (mara.na), grief (soka), lamentation > (parideva), misery (dukkha), distress (domanassa), and despair > (upaayaasa). #74008 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. nilovg Hi TG, Op 4-jul-2007, om 13:59 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > NEW TG: Well that's good! Cause this post may make you cry. ;-) ------- N: Not at all ;-)) Need some more time, I have lack of time and cannot answer all mails, because of my (not so serious) ailment, physical therapy, etc. It is so amazing, because of kamma and vipaaka I meet so many different people here with different ideas, interpretations of dhamma, inclinations. But where are the people? Where is my ailment, my thoughts while thinking over posts addressed to me? All gone in a moment. If we consider different moments we come closer to the truth. May you consider different moments, Nina. #74009 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:17 am Subject: Dhammas and impermanence nilovg Dear Scott, Thank you for your post, I can learn from it. ------- S: A human birth and encountering Dhamma. Its beautiful, man. We discuss impermanence, and although I have no problem with seeing that impermanence finds its deepest definition in reference to the momentaneity of dhammas, it was with a consideration of the concept of impermanence applied to the grosser level of concepts is where the lesson began. Dead is really dead and gone is really gone. Here today, gone tomorrow - stuff like that. And the total lack of control one has over these events is so staggering that it becomes pristine. ------ N: These are words we may overlook, but hearing it from you, knowing the bakground, makes it all more convincing. Dead is dead, gone is gone. -------- S: And then there is the chance to see that letting go is not something one agrees to do or decides to do - it happens. The house we worked to build on the land we searched to find - all sold and gone in weeks. With the Dhamma all these things can subside. ------- N: Letting go happens by conditions. All gone and it can happen so fast. --------- S: The chance to see that one's strivings are impersonal, that all the work one imagines one does to lay claim to one's corner of the world is really the result of complex conditions and that all this rolls on with complete and utter disregard for this bubble I call myself.. ------ N: Very well expressed: the chance to see that one's strivings are impersonal. Through the Dhamma we have a chance to understand this better. It is a chance we have. Great lesson in Dhamma. Nina. #74010 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Nina) -    TG, Your quoting the Buddha with regard to "disregarding" reminds me of the following from the sutta SN 23.2: "Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:4 as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play. "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding." -----Original Message----- From: TGrand458@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. Hi Nina Note in the Sutta you provided... It is not seeing the elements as "utimate realities with their own characteristics" which is at issue. It is seeing them as "afflicting" which is at issue. Then, the higher insight "disregards" the elements. Disregards! This is the same stuff I've been saying all along. "Ultimate Realities" is a non-issue. Not only that, its the wrong issue. ========================================== With metta, Howard #74011 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. TGrand458@... Hi Howard Hope your travels are going well if not already ended. Actually the quote I referenced was provided by Nina. I just went "along for the ride." ;-) The quote you provided is one of my favorites. The reason it is one of my favorites is because it "drives home" detachment in such an overwhelmingly effective manner. (We better keep this hush-hush...lest we be accused on being Mahayana again.) ;-) TG In a message dated 7/4/2007 9:10:06 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: TG, Your quoting the Buddha with regard to "disregarding" reminds me of the following from the sutta SN 23.2: "Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:4 as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play. "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications. "You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding." -----Original Message----- From: _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) To: _dhammastudygroup@dhammastudygdha_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) Sent: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. Hi Nina Note in the Sutta you provided... It is not seeing the elements as "utimate realities with their own characteristics" which is at issue. It is seeing them as "afflicting" which is at issue. Then, the higher insight "disregards" the elements. Disregards! This is the same stuff I've been saying all along. "Ultimate Realities" is a non-issue. Not only that, its the wrong issue. ========================================== With metta, Howard #74012 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) nilovg Hi Larry, Op 4-jul-2007, om 1:16 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: N: "But then faith has to be accompanied by understanding that begins to investigate realities, even though understanding has not reached yet the level of vipassana, that is, the realization of a stage of insight." > L: Faith is always accompanied by sati, so I would say yes there is > some > investigation going on. ------- N:Saddha accompaies each kusala citta, true. And so does sati, but it is sati of different levels, depending on the type of kusala citta. it may be dana, sila or bhavana. But in the case of bhavana there has to be pa~n~naa as well. Thus, when there is investigation, study, considering of the dhamma, there must be a degree of pa~n~naa. If there is a beginning of awareness there is understanding as well, even when it is still weak. Awareness without any understanding is meaningless. Awareness of what? One has to understand about dhammas and the different doorways through which they appear. ------- > L: My basic idea is that any kusala citta is right > path, just as any akusala citta is wrong path. There couldn't be a > kusala citta that is wrong path. ------ N: When we speak about the noble Path there has to be right understanding that comes first. There is a sutta in the Kindred Sayings that compares the Path leading out of the cycle with the path that does not. Samatha in this comparison is called the wrong Path, because samatha alone does not lead out of the cycle. Only the Path leading out of the cycle: vipassana, is the right Path. Nina. #74013 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 4-jul-2007, om 1:40 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > In this part of dependent arising we are dealing only with resultant > feeling. This resultant feeling conditions the arising of three > kinds of > craving: sensuous craving, craving for becoming, and craving for > annihilation. It would seem that sensuous craving and craving for > becoming would be conditioned by a pleasant feeling. The only one > available for eye, ear, nose, and tongue contact is the feeling that > accompanies investigation consciousness. Right? ------- N: No. That is not the case. We have to think of seeing that is accompanied by neutral feeling. It does not matter that the feeling is neutral. We have to consider the vipaakacitta; citta and cetasikas, feeling included. On account of what is seen there can, later on, during the javanacittas, be pleasant feeling accompanying craving. Upanissaya paccaya, decisive support. -------- > > As for the third kind of craving, it would make sense to me that an > unpleasant feeling would condition craving for annihilation, but there > is no resultant unpleasant feeling in eye, ear, nose, or tongue > contact. > So how does this work? -------- N: Craving: you want something, even if you want it to cease there is still wanting, thus craving. No aversion. --------- > > L: This seems like an important point because pleasant or unpleasant > feeling arises with sense contact all the time, -------- N: They arise on account of desirable or undesirable objects, and these feelings of like and dislike are akusala. There are many ways of classifying feelings. One way is according to the D.O. and then we learn: vipaaka feeling conditions craving. This is not easy to understand, but we shall come to the whole section later on. -------- > L: and we need to know > where this feeling comes from in order to understand the cause and > condition of nama and rupa. ------- N: Ignorance, the first link. Nama and rupa keep on arising because we are in the cycle. Nina. #74014 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 7/4/2007 6:06:31 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Thanks for your reply, and your very kind words (with which I am trying to be patient): TG: "Sorry about your wife passing." Scott: As strange as it seems this event was, while having been the most difficult thing to have arisen for me thus far, also the best since it was condition for an encounter with the Dhamma. You know, we all debate heartily, but we've all had Dhamma arise for us - how great is that? A human birth and encountering Dhamma. Its beautiful, man. ............................ NEW TG: Yes. That part is lucky, or if not lucky, at least fortunate. ......................... We discuss impermanence, and although I have no problem with seeing that impermanence finds its deepest definition in reference to the momentaneity of dhammas, it was with a consideration of the concept of impermanence applied to the grosser level of concepts is where the lesson began. Dead is really dead and gone is really gone. Here today, gone tomorrow - stuff like that. And the total lack of control one has over these events is so staggering that it becomes pristine. And then there is the chance to see that letting go is not something one agrees to do or decides to do - it happens. The house we worked to build on the land we searched to find - all sold and gone in weeks. With the Dhamma all these things can subside. I clung to a wife, to a house, to a small farm - to everything - I still do (this coffee is really delicious this morning; what a sunrise; and 'man, is that bass line that McCartney plays on 'I Want You You're So Heavy ever great'), I guess, but something has changed. The chance to see that one's strivings are impersonal, that all the work one imagines one does to lay claim to one's corner of the world is really the result of complex conditions and that all this rolls on with complete and utter disregard for this bubble I call myself - this impudent, conceited little bubble. ................................... NEW TG: Awesome stuff! I couldn't agree more with all of that. ................................... TG: "Being lazy, I decided to become the first person enlightened in English only. LOL...Your diligence in handling Pali in your analysis is very commendable.i Scott: I like that. Perhaps there will be Pali subtitles. Regarding the Pali, I just like to see what has come down to us, what the suttas say 'in the original'. I really don't care a whit to know what my opinion on Dhamma is - I don't like to have one (although I do). I want to know what the Dhamma is. ........................................ NEW TG: Great approach and using the Pali is excellent. I mean after all, how much do I really want to be trusting Bhikkhu Bodhi? ;-) ........................................ TG: "I also meandered through various doctrine (mostly Mahayana) for two years and ended up, in that phase, somewhat specializing in Nagarjuna due to his relentless no-self position. Then I picked up the Suttas and started reading them. Took about two months to realize that this was something incredibly deeper and more real (or actual) than what I had read before. Never looked back, rarely read secondary material, but did study Abhidhamma stuff pretty intently for 4 or 5 years. Even read Nina's book 3 times... Scott: Thanks for the brief history. There is so much confusing stuff when one first encounters Buddhism. Although likely controversial, here is where the difficult (for me) to conceptualise stuff about accumulations comes in. Although I don't understand it yet - as in thinking about it isn't the way to go - experience shows that 'accumulations' have an effect. The Pa.t.thana describes conditioning dhammas, conditioned dhammas, and conditioning forces. This thing with anusaya - all the latent tendencies which lie dormant within the citta, don't arise, yet have an effect. Nina wrote: N: "It is somewhat complicated here, because anusaya itself does not arise, it is dormant in the citta. I did not follow the original thread and the sutta, so I do not know whether it is only in mind- door processes. But as soon as I see anusaya, I remember: it does not arise in any process. It can condition the arising of akusala citta." Scott: While not having a good conceptual grasp of this, I know from experience how things not present before are suddenly present and how this depends on various other things - like the variously constituted moments of consciousness arising in relation to 'the death of a wife', for example - to be so. ....................................... NEW TG: I think of these "latent tendencies" as "momentums" or "pathways" that have been built by past conditioning ... so that when the appropriate conditions come together, they "slip or slide" in that direction easily. Various mental configurations follow that "pathway" that has been repetitively built because its the "path of least resistance." In that sense, I think of the tendencies as "formational structures" of the present. Would this be related to repetition condition? Sure, why not. ;-) Is this theory? Maybe. But it is a way to see actual conditions doing actual work. To say that tendencies "don't arise but affect other conditions," not only seems theoretical, but not practical or logical. So to me, somehow they must be present structures/formations that affect other structures/formations. That being said, there are just some things, such as kamma, that were not going to be able to fully understand in terms of its "mechanics." ...................................... Old Scott: "Yeah, I can really say I'm a beginner and have a lot to read. You are so bright." NEW TG: "LOL Now you're just toying with me huh?" Scott: No, I was trying to say you are smart. Me too - ("Three years is good enough. I think you're a Buddhist prodigy...") So what? Its hard to be patient with one's so-called intellect. Better to remember that it is only dhammas - TG and Scott are not geniuses - they don't even exist, really - not to court controversy. ............................................... NEW TG: Yea, its not so much intellectual power, but more of a "smart attitude/sensibility" that allows some of us to see the Dhamma to the extent we do. And yes to your last sentence. ............................................ TG: "The Suttas need years of examining and reflection. When I write my "wild theories," its something I've been considering, through analysis and direct observation, for decades. How could someone, hearing them for the first time, "see in them" what I see? They really can't ... especially if they reject them out of hand without even trying to insightfully see what it is I'm saying...which is usually what happens in this group. (We're all pretty locked into our thinking.) And I would say that pretty much all my ideas on the suttas come from the suttas in conjunction with direct observation.s Scott: Its true. I'm guilty of wanting to dismiss all obvious 'own theories' but I start with my own. As I mentioned, I don't care one bit to know what sort of theory I can come up with about anything. I see them come up. I'll get it wrong. Just the facts, please. ........................................ NEW TG: I speak of "wild theories" facetiously and agree...just the facts. There seems to me to be much material in the "Abhidhamma venue" that is theoretical. I find that type of theory lacking in the Suttas. However, many "Abhidhamma initiates" are so "tuned in" to that doctrine that I think they are taking several assumptions/theories as facts. This can happen to anybody of course, just not me. ;-) The Buddha was somewhat of a "generalist" I think because he knew that too much detail actually starts to "move away" from the truth and probably would also diminish his main theme...that of suffering. The "leaves in the hand" Suttas back up this point I think. .......................................... TG: "That said, I admit to seeing the Four Great Elements in a more radical way than can be garnered from a "straight" reading of the suttas. I just wish the Buddha was around so I could ask him about it. :-)" Scott: Yeah, that would be something. It humbling to think that, while a Buddha had arisen and was in the world, this 'continuity' was busy 'fluxing' in some realm or other with no conditions to see the Teacher. As I said, what a chance now to have come, even in this late era, to the Dhamma while it is here in some form to be encountered. TG: "IMO, years of studying Suttas is not only for becoming well informed by its contents, but even more importantly, to develop the sensibility to the teachings that allow one to put in its proper perspective the various levels and intents of the teachings. (I'm not sure if this "sensibility" can be developed or if someone just has to have it to begin with...but probably both.) Without this, one can take any position based on the Suttas because the suttas say opposite things at various times. The teaching is actually consistent, but due to the various circumstances and levels it is taught at, it may sound like conflicting statements at times." Scott: I'd say, as well, that the 'sensibility' can arise, due to conditions, and that it develops, again due to conditions. No one does the developing of course, but you've heard that elsewhere... ......................................... NEW TG: Agreed. Its just conditions. Imagine Barabara Streisand singing for a moment.... ... Conditions ....... conditions that condition ..... are the luckiest conditions ..... in the world.... OK, so I may never be a lyricist. LOL TG OUT ...................................... Thanks for the discussion. Sincerely, Scott. #74015 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/4/2007 7:59:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Not at all ;-)) Need some more time, I have lack of time and cannot answer all mails, because of my (not so serious) ailment, physical therapy, etc. It is so amazing, because of kamma and vipaaka I meet so many different people here with different ideas, interpretations of dhamma, inclinations. But where are the people? Where is my ailment, my thoughts while thinking over posts addressed to me? All gone in a moment. If we consider different moments we come closer to the truth. May you consider different moments, Nina. ............................... Hi Nina I'll give "moments" some momentary consideration. Just for you. But it seems to me your ailment isn't gone in a moment. Wish it was. True, nothing endures through time as "the same thing." That's because things are changing all the time. TG #74016 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 1:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. upasaka_howard Hi, TG - -----Original Message----- From: TGrand458@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 1:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. Hi Howard Hope your travels are going well if not already ended. ----------------------------- Howard: Thanks, they're great. We return Friday night. ----------------------------- Actually the quote I referenced was provided by Nina. I just went "along for the ride." ;-) The quote you provided is one of my favorites. The reason it is one of my favorites is because it "drives home" detachment in such an overwhelmingly effective manner. (We better keep this hush-hush...lest we be accused on being Mahayana again.) ;-) ------------------------------ Howard: LOLOL! Worse than being a Communist, ya know! ;-)) ------------------------------ TG ============================= With heretical metta, Howard #74017 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 4:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Nina, N: "Only the Path leading out of the cycle: vipassana, is the right Path." L: Does that mean that kusala citta can be wrong path? Larry #74018 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 4:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Are you saying neutral feeling conditions sensuous craving????? Larry #74019 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 5:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > N: "Only the Path leading out of the cycle: vipassana, is the right > Path." > > L: Does that mean that kusala citta can be wrong path? Dear Larry The Sammohavinodani (page227): "The ordinary man is like a madman and without considering 'Is this right or not' and aspiring by means of clinging ...he performs any of the kinds of kamma (good or bad)... Thus silabataparamasa (clinging to rules and rituals)is a condition for all three, namely the sense desire world, fine material and immaterial kinds of existence with their divisions and what they include" Robert #74020 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Robert, Robert: "The Sammohavinodani (page227): "The ordinary man is like a madman and without considering 'Is this right or not' and aspiring by means of clinging ...he performs any of the kinds of kamma (good or bad)... Thus silabataparamasa (clinging to rules and rituals)is a condition for all three, namely the sense desire world, fine material and immaterial kinds of existence with their divisions and what they include"" Larry: Does this mean that kusala citta can be wrong path? Larry #74021 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:22 pm Subject: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas philofillet Hi Howard and all The below passage made me think of other suttas in which rather vigorous verbs (in translation at least) are used to get at what the wise ones do. For example, SN 35: 96 "Decline." "And how, bhikkhus is one subject to decline? Here, bhikkkhus, when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye, there arise in him evil unwholesome states, memories and intentions connected with the fetter. If the bhikkhu tolerates them and does not abandon them, dispel them, put an end to them, and obliterate them, he sould understand this thus: 'I am declining away from wholeomse states.For this has been called decline by the Blessed One." This passage and the one below seem different in that the former is provisional - stopping proliferation (similar to the one about stamping out the grass fire) - and the latter is far more liberating and I'm sure much, much rarer, but I'm always interested in these listing of verbs. I guess the commentaries provide detailed explanation of the implication of each word, but I tend to take the repetitive aspect of these passages to add impetus by force of repetition or something like that. And I'm aware that lazy people like myself are likely to cling to this sort of vigorous language, but I personally think that's ok - as long as it gets that samvega going. I don't know what my question is anymore. It's so hot I can hardly think! Any thoughts on the implications of the verbs in the SN 35:96?@ passage compared to the below, and on their repetitive, vigorous tone? Metta, Phil > "Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:4 > as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, > & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have > fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive > of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, > fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash > them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make > them unfit for play. > > > "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & > demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of > craving for form. > > #74022 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 7:30 pm Subject: dhamma discussion bangkok gazita2002 Hello Nina and other dsg-ers Full day of discussion broken only by wonderful opportunity to offer lunch to the monks who also attended the discussion. Then our own lunchbreak of delicious food supplied by Khun Duangdern, served at her house. The development of satipatthana was the main topic [of course] for most of the day. Achan Sujin has unique ability to bring most topics back to the present moment, as this is the only time that the development of understanding can happen - 'just develop understanding and it will lead to more understanding'. Further on, there was talk about the criticism of teachers [I apologise for not noting where this came from]. Teachers being liable for criticism if trying to teach dhamma to people who are not at all interested. I found this aspect interesting, but it makes sense to me because it seems like a waste of time trying to guide people out of samsara if they prefer to have differing views and do not want to hear about satipatthana. In fact, it is only the teaching of satipatthana that leads out of samsara and this teaching is only suitable to those wth accumulations to understand what the development actually means - to know this present moment, not thro thinking about it but know that it is not self that knows, that it is panna; and it is a difficult path because panna is very weak when compared to other cetasikas eg lobha. Little by little, slowly, slowly panna can grow, but only when it arises and at first it is so weak that its hardly noticeable. Missing your presence here Nina, hope all is well, regards to Lodewijk. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. #74023 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 10:11 pm Subject: Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas kenhowardau Hi TG, Howard and Phil. I am surprised that you see this sutta as supporting your "deliberate practice" interpretations of the Dhamma. When little children play with sandcastles do they say, "We must smash these sandcastles in order to stop having attachment for them?" No, they don't. But things eventually happen that way. Children at first have attachment, and later - by conditions - have no attachment. It is only while they have no attachment that they can smash their sandcastles. Ken H > > > "Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:4 > > as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, > fever, > > & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have > > fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel > possessive > > of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, > thirst, > > fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash > > them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make > > them unfit for play. > > > > > > "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & > > demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending > of > > craving for form. > > > > > #74024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 4, 2007 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma discussion bangkok nilovg Dear Azita, Thank you very much for your report. Very useful remarks. Op 5-jul-2007, om 4:30 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > In fact, it is only the teaching of satipatthana that leads out of > samsara > and this teaching is only suitable to those wth accumulations to > understand what the development actually means - to know this present > moment, not thro thinking about it but know that it is not self that > knows, that it is panna; ------- N: Not self that knows, but pa~n~naa. One may know this in theory, but when it comes to this moment, there is forgetfulness of this truth. There may still be an idea of self who tries to understand or who wants to cultivate the right conditions. ---------- > A: and it is a difficult path because panna is very > weak when compared to other cetasikas eg lobha. Little by little, > slowly, > slowly panna can grow, but only when it arises and at first it is > so weak > that its hardly noticeable. --------- N: Pa~n~naa is hardly noticeable in the beginning, so weak. But this does not matter. When the beginning is right it can develop. The words slowly, slowly, I often hear also in the Thai sessions. How could it be fast, we have accumulated so much ignorance. Lodewijk says; I am already studying for more than forty years and I know nothing. But then I say: 'you are thinking of a self who wants to know. What you learnt is not lost even though you find that it does not stay with you. It is accumulated little by little. ' As the late Abbot of the Dong Devi temple said: peope are hotheaded. They want to see a result immediately. That is not the way of pa~n~naa. Pa~n~naa can only grow when it arises, Kh Sujin said and this is very meaningful. One moment now, and then gone. Then another moment and then gone. But it is accumulated in the citta. Looking forward to more reports from you! ****** Nina. #74025 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re. Abhidhamma and Vipassana. (was: Dhammas and Impermanence) nilovg Hi TG, ------- TG: There seems to me to be much material in the "Abhidhamma venue" that is theoretical. I find that type of theory lacking in the Suttas. However, many "Abhidhamma initiates" are so "tuned in" to that doctrine that I think they are taking several assumptions/theories as facts. This can happen to anybody of course, just not me. ;-) --------- N: It may seem theoretical to ignorant worldlings, but the subject is reality here, now. It is very detailed and we cannot understand all details and we do not have to try. But the basics are essential for satipatthana. Abhidhamma and Satipatthana go together. Here is an article from Rob K's web Abhidhamma: ( Note: - This is the talk , Sitagu Sayadaw gave on a special occasion of Abhidhamma, translated into English by the Department of Research and Compilation, International Buddhist Academy, Sagaing Hill, Myanmar ) Nina. #74026 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. nilovg Hi TG, Thanks for your good wishes. Yes, it is momentary. Seeing arises and then there cannot be painful feeling, though it may seem to stay. Then painful feeling arises again, and once more it is interspersed with other dhammas. So is daily life. We do not see eye to eye as to change and impermanence, I know. Nina. Op 4-jul-2007, om 21:50 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > But it > seems to me your ailment isn't gone in a moment. Wish it was. #74027 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:26 am Subject: Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas philofillet Hi Ken > > I am surprised that you see this sutta as supporting your "deliberate > practice" interpretations of the Dhamma. I wouldn't lump Howard and TG in with me. They have much deeper understanding of the teaching, I think. When little children play > with sandcastles do they say, "We must smash these sandcastles in > order to stop having attachment for them?" > > No, they don't. But things eventually happen that way. Children at > first have attachment, and later - by conditions - have no > attachment. It is only while they have no attachment that they > can smash their sandcastles. Well said! And as I think I said, this passage is dealing with a much deeper, more sophisticated form of liberation than the other one I posted. A kind of detachment that can't be had by intending to have it. (Thus I don't really like the teaching "there must be detachment from the beginning." I really think it doesn't work that way, can't work that way.) As for the other one I quoted, about getting rid of, not tolerating, obliterating (?) akusala as soon as it arises, well, we can intend to do that and we won't, but the intention to do so is one of the very key factors in doing it far more often than not, eventually. Of course as you say it's all conditions at work. The intention arises as a result of listening to the Buddha's teaching and guidance from Dhamma friends, I guess. I'll drop it there. :) Metta, Phil #74028 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:46 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 44. "Saying, 'Good, friend,' the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Saariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: 'But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma? Saadhaavusoti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m uttari.m pa~nha.m aapucchu.m: " siyaa panaavuso a~n~nopi pariyaayo yathaa ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato' aagato ima.m saddhammanti?" 45. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands contact, the origin of contact, the cessation of contact, and the way leading to the cessation of contact, in that way is he one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma. Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako phassa~nca pajaanaati, phassasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, phassanirodha~nca pajaanaati, phassanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. 46. "And what is contact, what is the origin of contact, what is the cessation of contact, what is the way leading to the cessation of contact? There are these classes of contact: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, mind-contact. With the arising of six-fold base there is the arising of contact. With the cessation of the six-fold base there is the cessation of contact. The way leading to the cessation of contact is just the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view...right concentration. Katamo panaavuso phasso? Katamo phassasamudayo? Katamo phassanirodho? Katamaa phassanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa'ti?. Chayime aavuso phassakaayaa: cakkhusamphasso sotasamphasso ghaanasamphasso jivhaasamphasso kaayasamphasso manosamphasso. Sa.laayatanasamudayaa phassasamudayo. Sa.laayatananirodhaa phassanirodho. Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo phassanirodhagaaminii - pa.tipadà seyyathiida.m: sammaadi.t.thi sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo sammaavaayaamo sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi. 47. "When a noble disciple has thus understood contact, the origin of contact, the cessation of contact, and the way leading to the cessation of contact...he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma. 4. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m phassa.m pajaanaati, eva.m phassasamudaya.m pajaanaati, eva.m phassanirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m phassanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa.tighaanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja.m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassanta"nkaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Sincerely, Scott. #74029 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Jon and Nina, > > Right you are. I forgot all about this: > > Nina: "In order to become lokuttara pa~n~naa, there must be first > mundane right view, insight to be developed in stages." > > L: Still, I would maintain that faith without insight constitutes a > level of mundane right view. To my understanding, both 'insight' and 'mundane right view' refer to a moment of consciousness that is accompanied by panna of the level of satipatthana, i.e. that understands the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. On that basis, it would be a contradiction in terms to say that faith without insight constitutes a level of mundane right view. Jon #74030 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:42 am Subject: e-card from Bangkok 2 sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, Tuesday afternoon, 3rd July with Ven Pannabahulo, Ven Dhammanando, Azita, Betty, Sukin, Pinna, Betty, us, Thai friends.... Topics that come to mind, order jumbled ***************************** - [pariyatti/suta maya-panna. Cinta maya-panna - better and better understanding - factors (as referred to recently by Ken H) for becoming a sotapanna - 1st 3 as pariyatti, leading to patipatti *without wishing for satipatthana!* - Ayatanas - a better translation? DO- all ayatana included. Understanding citta as manindriya, 'chief' as leading cetasikas. Subtle rupas and nibbana only experienced thr' the mind door. - dreams, no sense-door activity. Thinking is real - wisely or unwisely. -seeing, followed by unseen lobha all the time. 6 doorways. -Patipada, samma & micha. If it's not samma, it's micha, inc. all jhanas. - 3 cariyas, a)vinnana cariya (all ahetuka vipaka cittas), b)anana cariya (all akusala cittas), c)nana cariya (just the development of satipatthana up to before vipassana nanas). The only way leading to the overcoming of akusala, i.e samma patipada. - Betty liked a lot and therefore read out Nina's recent comments (on DSG) about finding it so helpful to see that all akusala, esp. all dosa is not caused by other people or the situation, but is the accumulated tendency. - Calm, understand it for the development of samatha. The beginning is not arranging place and so on, but understanding now. Seclusion now with understanding. Death reflection & going into 'solitary retreat' - this moment! Not avoiding impediments. Samatha & jhana. - Understanding all kinds of dhamams, namas and rupas as leading to development of all kinds of kusala. Natural awareness. Nama and rupa, not just applying the term, but direct understanding, however referred to. A long, hard taks. Understand reality with non-attachment! Without understanding the difference between nama and rupa, it's attanuditthi, always something, not anatta. With und., come the paramis of patience, truth, resolution etc. Cannot understand how they work without development of und. There can't be any elimination of akusala. - Sisters [Connie] - pubbakicca, beyond expectation what accumulations will arise. Maybe jhana in previous lives. Who knows? - Wishing others well, Nina's concern about Day 1 comments, i.e self! When there's rt und., the social aspect will be better with metta etc. No need to wish, lobha always follows. No expectation. What appears now is because of past wishing. We have all we wanted. Rt understanding will lead to more metta and all that's good. The World & Buddhism, the social aspect - no expectations, just for understanding. - Understanding the world - no expectations. The only way of und. and being aware. - Accumulations. Used to think of 'doing' all the time instead of und. No need to worry about what will come next. - Vatthu - different meanings as base, punna kiriya vatthu, ayatanas under vatthu.... - Struggling? Anicca. Cittas pass so fast. Like the magician - what apears through his magic tricks. - The absolute truth, no self. Whatever appears by conditions. Vis object, seeing etc. Without und., seems to be a big world, but no self. Just different realities in succession. - Where is avijja? The moment when there is no understanding of reality now. Und. must be natural just as avijja is natural! So awareness and und. can arise after the sense door process immediately, naturally. Otherwise, not the right path.... My time-slot's up - so apologies for typos and short-hand! More tomorrow on Wed and today (Thurs) if I can.... Maybe others can help too with any points.... Metta, Sarah ======= #74031 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: ... > Hi Jon > > Insight has many levels and many aspects. One starts by dealing with all > these levels and aspects and builds insight the best one can gradually. The > one you mention above is one of those aspects and somewhat elementary. Yes, I was describing the beginning level of the development of insight ("awareness of a presently arising dhamma as it is, for example, of visible object as just visible object, a rupa"). But I wouldn't say it was too elementary. Not for me, anyway ;-)) > My question remains, just when do you feel you will know these elements well > enough to start doing to real work of abandoning them? Seems to me some > folks here are so intrigued with "ultimate realities" that they think "knowing > them" is the heart and soul of the Buddha's teaching. I don't see that they > are even interested in trying to abandon them. But rather, wish to keep > seeing them and seeing them and seeing them. I rather think the Buddha broke > things into elements and aggregates merely to help the mind reflect off of and > detach from these same things. And the sooner the better. If I've understood you correctly, you would see the *understanding* of dhammas/elements as the beginning level, and their *abandoning* as a more advanced level of insight development. I do not see any essential difference between the understanding of dhammas and their abandoning. It is the developed understanding of dhammas/elements that leads to the abandonment of clinging to them. In other words, it is developed panna that abandons attachment. > (NOTE: In rereading your above, apparently you don't understand where I'm > coming from about detaching (letting go) from conditions? I find that > astonishing. If that's really the case, then there's nothing we can share in > discussing Buddha's teaching and you may want to ignore this post.) You talk about detaching from conditions. I have not come across this particular turn of phrase in the texts. As I see it, conditions are aspects of dhammas that are gradually realised as the understanding of dhammas is developed. > You did not say the above about knowing in all respects etc. I did. If you > understand the meaning, then please answer accordingly. Thanks for the clarification. I do not see the aim as being "to know present reality perfectly in all respects and in perfect detail." I see the aim as being the development of understanding realities to the degree necessary to eradicate wrong view of them and to penetrate their characteristics. > If not, I'm sorry I > wasn't more clear. As far as debating games and equivocations go, I'm > getting tired of them. Well the frustration is mutual, I can assure you ;-)). However, the benefit is well worth the effort, I find. Jon #74032 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > In a message dated 7/2/2007 4:50:48 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > Again, my question is what difference it makes, in terms of the development > of insight, whether one considers dhammas to have their "own" > characteristics or not? > > Jon > > > > .................................. > > Hi Jon > > I'm answering that question with great effort but it doesn't seem to > register with you. Oh well. Best wishes. Well let me put my question like this: As the understanding of dhammas is developed, any misunderstanding as to whether or not they have their own characteristic will be overcome. So it should make no difference in the long run. Right? Jon #74033 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and TG & Phil) - -----Original Message----- From: kenhowardau To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 12:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas Hi TG, Howard and Phil. I am surprised that you see this sutta as supporting your "deliberate practice" interpretations of the Dhamma. When little children play with sandcastles do they say, "We must smash these sandcastles in order to stop having attachment for them?" No, they don't. But things eventually happen that way. Children at first have attachment, and later - by conditions - have no attachment. It is only while they have no attachment that they can smash their sandcastles. Ken H > > > "Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:4 > > as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, > fever, > > & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have > > fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel > possessive > > of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, > thirst, > > fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash > > them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make > > them unfit for play. > > > > > > "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & > > demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending > of > > craving for form. > > > > > ==================================== I wasn't writing TG with regard to the matter of intentional action, though, of course, such action is a reality, but with regard to TG's point that dhammas are to be disregarded because of their afflictive nature rather than dealt with as entities/"realities" to be known in every possible way. Please reread my post to see what I quoted of TG's post to reply to. (I would quote it, but I'm having a bit of trouble with AOL's features using their "remote" website.) With metta, Howard #74034 From: connie Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 6:14 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) nichiconn dear friends, 8. A.t.thakanipaato 1. Siisuupacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 7 On verse: 201. "Akampiya.m atuliya.m, aputhujjanasevita.m; buddho dhammamadesesi, tattha me nirato mano. 201. The Buddha taught me the Doctrine, unshakable, incomparable, not cultivated by ordinary people. My mind was deeply attached to it. txt: Eva.m aaditte pajjalite pakampite ca loke kenacipi kampetu.m caaletu.m asakku.neyyataaya akampiya.m, gu.nato "ettako"ti tuletu.m asakku.neyyataaya attanaa sadisassa abhaavato ca atuliya.m.Buddhaadiihi ariyehi eva gocarabhaavanaabhigamato sevitattaa aputhujjanasevita.m. Buddho bhagavaa maggaphalanibbaanappabheda.m navavidha.m lokuttaradhamma.m mahaakaru.naaya sa~ncoditamaanaso adesesi sadevakassa lokassa kathesi pavedesi. Tattha tasmi.m ariyadhamme mayha.m mano nirato abhirato, na tato vinivattatiiti attho. Sesa.m he.t.thaa vuttanayameva. Pruitt: 201. In this world that is burning, blazing, and being shaken in this way, [the Doctrine] cannot be shaken or moved by anyone, it is unshakable. Because it is impossible to compare (tuletu.m) it, saying, "It is of this much quality"; because of the absence of anything similar to it, it is incomparable (atuliya.m). Because it is cultivated through the sphere of mental development by such noble ones as the Buddhas, it is not cultivated by ordinary people [but by] the Buddha, the Blessed One, through great compassion and with his mind stimulated, who taught the supramundane mental states, the ninefold paths, fruition states, and quenching;* he informed, made known the world with its [men and] devas. To it means; my mind was deeply attached (nirato), greatly rejoiced (abhirato) in the Doctrine of that Noble One. It does not turn away from that. That is the meaning. The meaning of the rest has been explained already. *Four paths, four fruition states, and quenching. Siisuupacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. A.t.thakanipaatava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Siisuupacaalaa. Here ends the commentary on the section of eight [verses]. c. #74035 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. nilovg Hi Larry, When we say: it conditions, we have to consider which one of the twentyfour conditions one dhamma conditions another dhamma. That is why the Vis. in the beginning went through all the types of conditions. Going to Vis. XVII, 237, 238: in the D.O. method the feeling that is vipaaka conditions craving. It is said: by way of decisive support, and this is natural decisive support, pakatupanissaya paccaya. This is not conescent. There is also the latent tendency to craving to be considered. See footnote 40 that elaborates on the latent tendency. It is said that the latent tendency of craving conditions also the arising of craving, without it craving could not arise. Sensuous craving is craving for the sense objects, such as visible object, sound, etc. We should not forget that, as the footnote states, with regard to 'feeling conditions craving', we are dealing with an exposition on D.O. There are also other methods of seeing feeling and craving. Nina. Op 5-jul-2007, om 1:23 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Are you saying neutral feeling conditions sensuous craving????? #74036 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:30 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 5, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 5 The Objects of Insight During our sessions we went into the details of the Abhidhamma. Without knowledge of the Abhidhamma we cannot understand the different cittas which arise, we cannot understand that our life is nåma and rúpa. Nåma and rúpa are paramattha dhammas, they are real in the ultimate sense. We cannot be reminded often enough that the objects of sati and paññå are paramattha dhammas which appear now through the six doors. We should not believe too soon that we have understood this already. We may have only theoretical knowledge of paramattha dhammas. Acharn Somphon reminded us: “What appears through the eyes cannot be anything else but visible object, it is not a concept.” We keep on forgetting this, we often forget that concepts of persons and things are not real in the ultimate sense. So long as concepts hide paramattha dhammas, realities cannot be known as non-self. We still believe that it is I who is seeing, instead of dhamma which sees. We think of a thing which is hard instead of knowing that hardness is dhamma. During the sessions we were reminded time and again that listening and considering are conditions for the arising of awareness of nåma and rúpa. Listening is never lost because during these moments understanding is accumulated. Before we listened to the Dhamma we did not pay attention to the characteristics of realities. We touched many things which were hard but we did not pay attention to the reality of hardness. We were absorbed in conventional truth, in the things we touched. After having listened to the Dhamma we begin to realize that hardness is a rúpa appearing through the bodysense. When sati arises we come to understand the difference between the moments we are absorbed in concepts and the moments paramattha dhammas appear one at a time through one of the six doors. Sati can be aware of the characteristic of hardness without thinking of names. At the moment we think of words or names the reality of hardness has vanished already. When paññå knows this reality as nåma and that reality as rúpa, it means that realities are seen as non-self. The benefit of satipatthåna is having less ignorance of paramattha dhammas. When there is a moment of sati its benefit can be understood; during that moment one begins to understand what dhamma is: a reality which does not last and which is non-self. Seeing the benefit of satipatthåna is a condition for its arising. ***** Nina. #74037 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:23 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 6, no 2, Dependence-condition. nilovg Dear friends, When lobha-múla-citta arises it is dependent on the accompanying cetasikas. The roots of moha and lobha condition that citta and the other cetasikas by way of root-condition, hetu-paccaya, and also by way of dependence-condition, nissaya-paccaya. Ignorance and attachment are a support for the lobha-múla-citta. There are also chanda, desire-to-do, and viriya, energy, accompanying the lobha-múla- citta. Chanda can be predominance-condition, adhipati-paccaya, while one tries to acquire the things one clings to. Lobha-múla-citta just cognizes the desirable object which presents itself, it needs chanda to accomplish something, such as acquiring the object. Viriya can also be predominant when one tries to obtain something. When kusala citta arises it is dependent on alobha, non-attachment, and adosa, non-aversion, and also on other cetasikas. It needs for example chanda and viriya for the performance of dåna, the observance of síla or the development of right understanding. Each of the accompanying cetasikas which performs its own task supports citta and conditions it by way of dependence-condition. As to the second class, the four great Elements which are the rúpas of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion, condition one another by way of conascent dependence-condition, sahajåta-nissaya-paccaya. They are a support for one another. Solidity cannot arise without cohesion, temperature and motion, and this is also true for the other three great Elements. They also condition one another by way of conascence-condition, sahajåta-paccaya, and mutuality-condition, aññamañña-paccaya. As to the third class, at the moment of birth the patisandhi-citta and the hadaya-vatthu (heart-base) are mutually related to one another by way of dependence. In the planes where there are five khandhas, nåma and rúpa, kamma produces the rúpa which is heart-base at the same time as the patisandhi-citta which arises at the heart- base. The paìisandhi-citta and the heart-base support each other and they cannot arise without each other. They are also related by way of conascence, sahajåta and by way of mutuality, aññamañña. As to the fourth class, citta and cetasikas are related to mind- produced rúpa by way of dependence-condition. As we have seen, citta is one of the four factors which produce rúpas of the body. Citta and its accompanying cetasikas are a support to the rúpa produced by them, but that rúpa does not reciprocally condition the citta and cetasikas by way of dependence. When we, for example, speak kind words, the rúpa which is speech intimation is conditioned by kusala citta and accompanying cetasikas by way of dependence-condition. If there are no conditions for the arising of kusala citta it is impossible to speak kindly. ******** Nina. #74038 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - Hi Howard and all The below passage made me think of other suttas in which rather vigorous verbs (in translation at least) are used to get at what the wise ones do. For example, SN 35: 96 "Decline." "And how, bhikkhus is one subject to decline? Here, bhikkkhus, when a bhikkhu has seen a form with the eye, there arise in him evil unwholesome states, memories and intentions connected with the fetter. If the bhikkhu tolerates them and does not abandon them, dispel them, put an end to them, and obliterate them, he sould understand this thus: 'I am declining away from wholeomse states.For this has been called decline by the Blessed One." This passage and the one below seem different in that the former is provisional - stopping proliferation (similar to the one about stamping out the grass fire) - and the latter is far more liberating and I'm sure much, much rarer, but I'm always interested in these listing of verbs. I guess the commentaries provide detailed explanation of the implication of each word, but I tend to take the repetitive aspect of these passages to add impetus by force of repetition or something like that. And I'm aware that lazy people like myself are likely to cling to this sort of vigorous language, but I personally think that's ok - as long as it gets that samvega going. I don't know what my question is anymore. It's so hot I can hardly think! Any thoughts on the implications of the verbs in the SN 35:96Â?@ passage compared to the below, and on their repetitive, vigorous tone? Metta, Phil > "Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:4 > as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, > & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have > fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive > of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, > fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash > them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make > them unfit for play. > > > "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & > demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of > craving for form. > > ================================== I see the sand-castle material as reportage. It simply indicates that so long as the "fun" remains, we cling, but when dispassion and disenchantment set in, the clinging is fully abandoned and the previous objects of clinging are disregarded - even disdainfully dismissed. OTOH, the material from SN 35:96 pertains to intentional cultivation - specifically, to right effort. It is such cultivation, along with other sorts, that leads to the arising of the wisdom that bears the fruit of dispassion, disenchantment, and relinquishment. With metta, Howard #74039 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re. Abhidhamma and Vipassana. (was: Dhammas and Impermanence) TGrand458@... Hi Nina In a message dated 7/5/2007 3:50:57 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG, ------- TG: There seems to me to be much material in the "Abhidhamma venue" that is theoretical. I find that type of theory lacking in the Suttas. However, many "Abhidhamma initiates" are so "tuned in" to that doctrine that I think they are taking several assumptions/I think they are taking several happen to anybody of course, just not me. ;-) --------- N: It may seem theoretical to ignorant worldlings, ........................................... NEW TG: LOLOL (And Scott thought HE was rude!) LOL Just kidding. I think I'll have a T-Shirt made that proudly says "Ignorant Worldling" on BOTH sides! LOL In small print it will say -- "Your gifts to me are of little value, but I'll take them just the same." ;-) ................................................ but the subject is reality here, now. It is very detailed and we cannot understand all details and we do not have to try. ............................................... NEW TG: Never mind. Changed my mind about commenting. LOL ........................................... But the basics are essential for satipatthana. Abhidhamma and Satipatthana go together. Here is an article from Rob K's web Abhidhamma: ( Note: - This is the talk , Sitagu Sayadaw gave on a special occasion of Abhidhamma, translated into English by the Department of Research and Compilation, International Buddhist Academy, Sagaing Hill, Myanmar ) ............................................. NEW TG: Cheers and Applause roar from the Abhidhamma Quarter!!! This reminds me of Suan Lu Zaw's case about all Theradada accepting the Abhidhamma, therefore, all Abhidhamma thought is Buddha's teaching...or something to that effect. Basically a "self serving" internal argument designed to shut out opposing views. Seriously though, I only have a problem with about 1 or 2 % of Abhidhamma thought and it is commentarial analysis. Unfortunately, that 1 or 2 % is taking the lead in interpreting the whole of Abhidhamma as well as Sutta material. Therefore, tarnishing both IMO. Ignorant Worldling (TG) OUT ............................................... #74040 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Jon In a message dated 7/5/2007 6:59:28 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: If I've understood you correctly, you would see the *understanding* of dhammas/elements as the beginning level, and their *abandoning* as a more advanced level of insight development. I do not see any essential difference between the understanding of dhammas and their abandoning. It is the developed understanding of dhammas/elements that leads to the abandonment of clinging to them. In other words, it is developed panna that abandons attachment. ........................................ NEW TG: I agree. But detachment is the "end result" of insight ... but both of us agree as to that I think. Now, as to what exactly insight is, on that we may not agree...then again, maybe we would. .............................................. > (NOTE: In rereading your above, apparently you don't understand where I'm > coming from about detaching (letting go) from conditions? I find that > astonishing. If that's really the case, then there's nothing we can share in > discussing Buddha's teaching and you may want to ignore this post.) You talk about detaching from conditions. I have not come across this particular turn of phrase in the texts. As I see it, conditions are aspects of dhammas that are gradually realised as the understanding of dhammas is developed. ........................................... NEW TG: Do you need to come across a "particular turn of phrase in the texts" in order to understand that it is conditions that are being detached from? To me, conditions are not "aspects of dhammas" but rather, conditions are the "dhammas" (as you call them). ................................................... > You did not say the above about knowing in all respects etc. I did. If you > understand the meaning, then please answer accordingly. Thanks for the clarification. I do not see the aim as being "to know present reality perfectly in all respects and in perfect detail." I see the aim as being the development of understanding realities to the degree necessary to eradicate wrong view of them and to penetrate their characteristics. ...................................... NEW TG: To me, conditions are conditions and all of conditionality is included. When you guys talk about "realities," it is as if there are conditions that are not actual. So you seem to think there are at least two levels of conditionality. I don't. But we won't agree on this from past experience. ..................................................... > If not, I'm sorry I > wasn't more clear. As far as debating games and equivocations go, I'm > getting tired of them. Well the frustration is mutual, I can assure you ;-)). However, the benefit is well worth the effort, I find. Jon TG OUT #74041 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Jon, All "And what is it that he dismantle and does not build up? He dismantles form and does not build it up. He dismantles feeling ... perception ... volitional formations ... consciousness and does not build it up. "And what is it that he abandons and does not cling to? He abandons form and does not cling to it. He abandons feeling ... perception ... volitional formations ... consciousness and does not cling to it. "And what is it that he scatters and does not amass? He scatters form and does not amass it. He scatters feeling ... perception ... volitional formations ... consciousness and does not amass it. "And what is it the he extinguishes and does not kindle? He extinguishes form and does not kindle it. He extinguishes feeling ... perception ... volitional formations ... consciousness and does not kindle it." Samyutta Nikaya (Connected Discourses of the Buddha, page 916 - 917) TG #74042 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 8:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas TGrand458@... Hi Phil, Howard, ALL The repetitive vigorous tone is done to "drive" the point home as forcefully as possible. Each repetition, IMO, adds a layer of force to the statement. While one can rather academically read through a Sutta that might just have the one verb, the repetition has the affect (on my mind) to actually experience detachment as I read it. It makes the mind more reflective about the point (detachment from conditions/experiences) and keeps the mind focused on detachment longer. Reading, therefore, become a "practice" and not just academic. To no small extent, this is one of the big advantages the Suttas have over the Abhidhamma. They are much more inspirational and affecting. TG (Ignorant Worldling) I'll be signing off "IW" in the near future. ;-) In a message dated 7/5/2007 8:52:22 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Any thoughts on the implications of the verbs in the SN 35:96?@ passage compared to the below, and on their repetitive, vigorous tone? Metta, Phil > "Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:4 > as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, > & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have > fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive > of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, > fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash > them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make > them unfit for play. > > > "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & > demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of > craving for form. > > ================================== I see the sand-castle material as reportage. It simply indicates that so long as the "fun" remains, we cling, but when dispassion and disenchantment set in, the clinging is fully abandoned and the previous objects of clinging are disregarded - even disdainfully dismissed. OTOH, the material from SN 35:96 pertains to intentional cultivation - specifically, to right effort. It is such cultivation, along with other sorts, that leads to the arising of the wisdom that bears the fruit of dispassion, disenchantment, and relinquishment. With metta, Howard #74043 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 3:47 pm Subject: E-card from Bangkok 3 sarahprocter... Wednesday morning session report ------------------------------------ Dear Han, Ven Pannabhaulo, Nina & all, I see Sukin has kindly put a photo of Ven Pannabahulo in the DSG member album. It was taken in a little garden covered seating area where we've had the most enjoyable pre-discussion chats with him, Ven Dhammanando and others who've arrived early every day. These have often prompted the questions for the main sessions with A.Sujin. For this (Wed morning session), Han also came with us. We had met at our hotel and so we'd had some pre-pre discussion already! It's always a delight to spend time with him and I know he'll be elaborating on some of the topics I list. (As usual, I'll be happy to elaborate on any points as best I can). A very lively session. - Impermanence of dhammas. PB was commenting that it's just as much a theory as science and atoms. There has to be a beginning however - a beginning of 'right' theory, pariyatti, so we realise cittas don't last. - Listen, hear the reminders and leave the development to sankhara khandha. No control. - Han's 'simple approach': Don't do evil, do good, purify the mind! Can anyone do that? But, akusala will arise. After seeing, there is akusala. No one can stop it. This is the difference between an arahat and worldlings. Understand! - Seeing a bhikkhu, is it kusala? Is it always a desirable object? Akusala following seeing all the time. - Prox. cause of faith? 3 jewels? First must understand what faith/saddha is. Then it depends on accumulations whether saddha will be conditioned. Not everyone who saw/sees bhikkhus has saddha. - 'Work out your salvation with diligence', PB- use 'all the tools'. One has to study carefully for one's own understanding. Others' panna cannot liberate one, so cannot depend on others' panna. Panna by listening, not by doing! - Atta/anatta, the softness of the body or the softness of the pillow - just softness experienced, anatta! - Reflection every day on the 5 factors Phil & Han like to quote (old age, sickness, death, parting, own kamma). The usefulness is that it's all not self. Why is there then a distinction between others and self? Without absolute reality, can there be any idea of this? Can there be any understanding of the 1st NT if there's no understanding of the arising and falling away? For all, 5 khandhas. Not 'I' who abstains. - Sila as foundation with panna leading to adhi sila. Sila leading to concentration, again with understanding. - sila as kusala, akusala, avyakata. See sutta in MN, middle 50s, after Maha Sakula (?) on akusala sila. Know what sila is. In the development of understanding, must be kusala citta. Indriya samvara sila in different ways, depending on the context. - Frivolous speech. Akusala kamma atha if one deliberately hurts the other. - Prayer beads. By tradition? In the Buddha's time? What about understanding? For protection? For results? Akusala? Ven Pannabahulo, I hope you've had a good trip back to Chengmai. Pls share any of your reflections or any points you found especially helpful/interesting. ******* Metta, Sarah ========= #74044 From: connie Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:01 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) nichiconn Dear Friends, How's the shoulder, Howard? May you have the strength of a 120 year old woman! After: [Then the Buddha said,] "O Gotamii, in order to overcome their wrong views, show your supernormal power[s] to the young women who comprehended the Doctrine [but] who have become confused." ... {c: then, among other things:} ... She made [Mount] Sineru into a stick; and turning over the great earth with its roots, she made it into a sunshade. Then carrying it, she walked up and down in the sky. The following is rather long for a post, but enjoy. peace, connie Mahaavaggapaa.li 2. Mahaanidaanasutta.m Pa.ticcasamuppaado 95. Eva.m me suta.m– eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa kuruusu viharati kammaasadhamma.m naama [kammaasadamma.m naama (syaa.)] kuruuna.m nigamo. Atha kho aayasmaa aanando yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami, upasa"nkamitvaa bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa aanando bhagavanta.m etadavoca– << acchariya.m, bhante, abbhuta.m, bhante! Yaava gambhiiro caaya.m, bhante, pa.ticcasamuppaado gambhiiraavabhaaso ca, atha ca pana me uttaanakuttaanako viya khaayatiiâ€?ti. >> Maa heva.m, aananda, avaca, maa heva.m, aananda, avaca. Gambhiiro caaya.m, aananda, pa.ticcasamuppaado gambhiiraavabhaaso ca. Etassa, aananda, dhammassa ananubodhaa appa.tivedhaa evamaya.m pajaa tantaakulakajaataa kulaga.n.thikajaataa [gulaagu.n.thikajaataa (sii. pii.), gu.naga.n.thikajaataa (syaa.)] muñjapabbajabhuutaa apaaya.m duggati.m vinipaata.m sa.msaara.m naativattati. THE GREAT DISCOURSE ON CAUSATION The Mahaanidaana Sutta and Its Commentaries Translated from the Pali by BHIKKHU BODHI BPS 2000 p45, PART ONE: THE MAHAANIDAANA SUTTA Dependent Arising 1. [55] Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Exalted One was living among the Kurus, where there was a town of the Kurus named Kammaasadhamma. Then the Venerable Aananda approached the Exalted One, paid homage to him, and sat down to one side. Seated, he said to the Exalted One: "It is wonderful and marvellous, venerable sir, how this dependent arising is so deep and appears so deep, yet to myself it seems as clear as clear can be." "Do not say so, Aananda! Do not say so, Aananda! This dependent arising, Aananda, is deep and it appears deep. Because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma, Aananda, this generation has become like a tangled skein, like a knotted ball of thread, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not pass beyond sa.msaara with its plane of misery, unfortunate destinations, and lower realms. pp58-61 PART TWO : THE COMMENTARIAL EXEGESIS OF THE MAHAANIDAANA SUTTA 1. Introductory Section 1. THE THE VENERABLE AANANDA APPROACHED THE EXALTED ONE ... CY. [484] At what time, and for what reason, did the Venerable Aananda approach the Exalted one? He approached in the evening, for the purpose of asking a question about the principle of conditionality. It is said that on that day the Venerable Aananda, in order to benefit families, walked for alms in the village of Kammaasadhamma, (going along) as if depositing a bundle of a thousand gold pieces at the door of each home [because, by accepting their almsfood, he enabled them to generate a great mass of merit]. When he returned from his almsround he did his duties to the Teacher. When the Teacher entered the Fragrant Cottage, he venerated him, went to his own day-quarters, and did his duties to his own pupils. After they departed, he swept his quarters, prepared his leather mat, cooled off his hands and feet with water from the waterpot, and sitting down cross-legged, he attained to the attainment of the fruit of stream-entry. Emerging from the attainment at the predetermined time, he immersed his mind in the principle of conditionality. He explored the twelve-factored principle of conditionality three times, first starting from the beginning thus: "With ignorance as condition volitional formations come to be," and working down to the end, then working from the end back to the beginning, and then working from both ends to the midddle and from the middle to both ends. As he explored it, the principle of conditionality [485] became transparent to him and it appeared "as clear as clear can be." Thereupon he considered: "The Buddhas all say that the principle of conditionality is deep and appears deep; yet to myself, a disciple with limited knowledge, it appears clear, transparent, and evident. Does it appear so only to myself or to others as well?" Then he thought: "Let me take this question to the Exalted One. For surely the Exalted One will treat this question of mine as an opportunity for teaching and, as if lifting up Mount Sineru along with its surroundings, he will elucidate the matter by explaining a discourse. For there are four areas where the proper field, the greatness of the Buddha-knowledge is discerned, and connected with emptiness, namely, the promulgation of the Vinaya, the classification of the diversity of planes, the exposition of the principle of conditionality, and the classification of the diversity of tenets. *1 Though the Venerable Aananda ordinarily approached the Exalted One a hundred or a thousand times a day, he never approached without a cause or reason. So that day he rose up from his day-quarters, shook out his leather mat and, taking it along, in the evening he approached the Buddha with his question in mind, thinking: "I will confront the elephant-like Buddha and hear his trumpeting cry of knowledge, I will confront the lion-like Buddha and hear his lion's roar of knowledge. I will confront the stallion-like Buddha and see his stride of knowledge." Thus it was said above: "He approached in the evening, for the purpose of asking a question about the principle of conditionality." SUB. CY. "As if lifting up Mount Sineru along with its surroundings": by this phrase he expresses the great difficulty of expounding such teaching. "The thundering of the Buddhas becomes great": this passage is undertaken to show that just as the understanding of the promulagation of the Vinaya, the diversity of planes, and the diversity of tenets is the domain only of the omniscient knowledge, not shared by others, so too is the analysis of conditionality, which is free from the two extremes and devoid of an independent agent and experiencer.*2 "Their thundering becomes great": the thundering of their teaching, occurring with diverse methods, becomes great, vast, and many faceted because of the complexity and difficulty of the subject to be taught. "Their knowledge enters its proper sphere": hence their knowledge of how to teach repeatedly enters into the phenomena to be taught, laying bare their divisions. "The greatness of the Buddha-knowledge is discerned": in the teaching and penetration of such a Dhamma, the loftiness of the Buddha's knowledge of how to teach and this knowledge of penetration becomes evident. Herein, the canonical statement "All the Exalted Buddha's verbal action is preceded and accompanied by knowledge" (M.Nd. p.178) establishes that the Exalted One's teaching is never devoid of knowledge and always occurs like a lion's roar. Nevertheless, because of the subject to be taught, this present teaching can be considered deeper than the others and the sphere to be distinctively entered upon by his knowledge. THIS DEPENDENT ARISING IS SO DEEP AND APPEARS SO DEEP. CY. Being deep, it appears deep. For something ( a body of water) might be shallow yet appear deep, like stagnant water having a dark colour because of rotting leaves, etc.; this might be only knee-deep, yet appear to be a hundred fathoms.*3 Another body of water might be deep yet appear shallow, like the serene water of the Jewel River, which is a hundred fathoms deep yet seems to be knee-deep. Other water might be shallow and appear shallow, like the water in a pot, etc. And still other water might be deep and appear deep, like the water in the ocean at the foot of Mount Sineru. Thus water can be described in four ways. But this is not so in regard to dependent arising. This can be described in only one way: "it is deep and appears deep." But though this is so, the Venerable Aanada says: "To myself it seems as clear as clear can be. How wonderful and marvellous, venerable sir!" Thus revealing his own astonisment, he asked a question, sat down, and became silent. SUB. CY. Query: Isn't it true that dependent arising is exclusively deep? Then why is its deep appearance mentioned? Reply: It is mentioned to show that it is exclusively deep. To show by way of contrast that it is exclusively deep, the commentator describes four alternatives that apply to something else and then shows that, of the four, only the last is applicable to dependent arising. DO NOT SAY SO, AANANDA! CY. Hearing his statement, the Exalted One thought to himself: "Aananda says that a matter which belongs to the domain of the Buddhas is clear to himself. This is like stretching out one's hand to take hold of the highest plane of existence, like trying to cut through Mount Sineru and remove it's core, like wanting to cross the ocean without a ship, or like turning over the earth and trying to take it's nutritive essence. Let my point out its depth to him." Then he said: "Do not say so, Aananda!" SUB CY. By means of four similes the commentator illustrates those deep qualities on account of which dependent arising is called "deep." Just as it is not possible to stretch out one's hand and take hold of the highest plane of existence because of its distance, so it is not possible for one with ordinary knowledge to grasp the meaning of the volitional formations being originated and sustained with ignorance as condition, etc. Just as it is not possible for an ordinary person to break open Mount Sineru and remove its core, so it is not possible for one with ordinary knowledge to penetratively understand, through division and analysis, the phenomena and meanings involved in dependent arising. Just as it is not possible for an ordinary person to cross the ocean by the strength of his arms, so it is not possible for one with ordinary knowledge to cross dependent arising by way of teaching it. And just as it is not possible for an ordinary person to turn over the earth and take its nutritive essence, so it is not possible for one with ordinary knowledge to uncover and grasp the conditioning nature of the conditions thus: "In such and such ways ignorance, etc., is a condition for volitional formations, etc." Thus the four similes can be interpreted by way of the fourfold depth of dependent arising.*4 This interpretation of the meaning is made by way of ordinaryknowledge, since all those who have seen the truths*5 possess penetration (of dependent arising). Nevertheless, because disciples and paccekabuddhas have only limited knowledge of it while Buddhas alone have unlimited knowledge, dependent arising is called "a matter which belongs to the domain of the Buddhas." pp.121-2 NOTES Introduction 1. Imasmim. sati idam. hoti; imass' uppaadaa idam. uppajjati. Imasmim. asati idam. na hoti; imassa nirodhaa idam. nirujjhati (e.g. S.XII.21; ii, 28). 2. It will be noted that, as the twelvefold formula accounts for the origin and cessation of suffering, it offers an expanded version of the second and third noble truths. In fact, in one sutta (A.III.61; i, 177) the two sides of the formula are stated in full in explanations of these two truths. 3. For a tabular comparison of the two versions, see Table 1. 4. The two words attha and dhamma have been rendered here as "meaning" and "phenomena" for the sake of consistency with the rest of the translation and because that seems to be their intended literal meaning. Puzzlement may arise over the connection between the commentary's explanation of the two "depths" and the terms "meaning" and "phenomena." The key to this connection is found in the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 22-23), which in elucidating the two terms atthapa.tisambhidaa, "analytical knowledge of meaning," and dhammapa.tisambhidaa, "analytical knowledge of phenomena," explains attha as a term for the effect of a cause (Hetuphala) and dhamma as a condition (paccaya). In support of this interpretation, the comentator quotes the Vibha"nga (of the Abhidhamma Pi.taka): "Knowledge about aging and death is the analytical knowledge of meaning; knowledge about the origin of aging and death is the analytical knowledge of phenomena ... Knowledge about formations is the analytical knowledge of meaning; knowledge about the origin of formations is the analytical knowledge of phenomena." 5. Attano pana sabhaava.m dhaarenti ti dahmmaa. Dhs.A.39. Despite this definition, the comentaries allow to dhamma a wider range of meaning than to sabhaava. Thus there are dhammaa which do not support a sabhaava, namely, certain conceptual entities and the attainment of cessation. See the note on the two terms by ~Naa.namoli, Vism., VIII, n.68. #74045 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon, Jon: "To my understanding, both 'insight' and 'mundane right view' refer to a moment of consciousness that is accompanied by panna of the level of satipatthana, i.e. that understands the true nature of a presently arising dhamma." Larry: That's news to me. Is it your view then that kusala citta can be wrong path? Larry #74046 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. lbidd2 Hi Nina again, Correction: it should be the neutral feeling that arises with ear contact conditions craving for sound. Larry #74047 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 4:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. lbidd2 Hi Nina, I take it that your answer is that the neutral feeling of sound conditions craving for sound. Larry #74048 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:39 pm Subject: Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas philofillet Hi TG and all > The repetitive vigorous tone is done to "drive" the point home as forcefully > as possible. Each repetition, IMO, adds a layer of force to the statement. This is the way I see it as well. The suttas are conditioning factors stirring a sense of urgency. In the past I would have said that because there is a lot of clinging to the emotional comfort of believing onself to be a person who has been stirred towards wise ways by a sutta, the whole operation is tainted, but for the time being at least I reject that notion. Anything that gets us more involved in carrying out the Buddha's teaching is good, even if cliging to self-image, self-comfort is involved, I think. It will be involved in whatever we're doing related to Dhamma anyways - it's so pervasive. > While one can rather academically read through a Sutta that might just have > the one verb, the repetition has the affect (on my mind) to actually > experience detachment as I read it. Hmmm. I don't think I could say this about myself. There is a different kind of attachment, a more wholesome attachment, I think. There are seeds of detachment in that attachment to following the Buddha's teaching, something like that - I don't know. It's breakfast. I'm going to read some suttas and deepen my attachment to them! :) Metta, Phil #74049 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 5:53 pm Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok 3 philofillet Hi Sarah and all Sounds like you're having a nice time in Bangkok. > - Reflection every day on the 5 factors Phil & Han like to quote (old age, > sickness, death, parting, own kamma). The usefulness is that it's all not > self. Why is there then a distinction between others and self? Without > absolute reality, can there be any idea of this? Can there be any > understanding of the 1st NT if there's no understanding of the arising and > falling away? For all, 5 khandhas. Not 'I' who abstains. Too soon, too soon. I think reflecting on others, other people, is very helpful. We are all owners of our kamma, but because "the all" is burniing with greed, hatred and delusion, we all go wrong. We do our best, but we all go wrong. Reflecting on people (including myself) in this way, on conceptual objects, conditions a lot of patience in daily life, friendliness, non-harmfulness. The mind is less agitated therefore, and settles easier into meditation. And it is through meditation that there will be deeper insight into the kind of things you mention above. I know we disagree there, but that's cool. Reflection on the paramatttha side of things, the deeper truth, does come up now and then for me but now I think it is best not to insist on it. My understanding will gradually become more paramattish. BTW, I think the sutta on the acrobats is very helpful here. By looking after ourselves, through satipatthana meditation, we produce conditions for taking care of others. (There is deeper paramattha understanding, so less attachment and the bad behaviour to others that that causes.) By taking care of others, through conceptual reflection on their suffering (we're in the same boat) we produce conditions for less remorse and agitation, so the mind settles more readily into satipatthana meditation. Something like that. I don't know. I imagine you will want to write something in response to this, Ken, and that's great, but I'll let you have the last word. Metta, Phil #74050 From: han tun Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] E-card from Bangkok 3 hantun1 Dear Sarah and All, I still cannot use my computer at home (it may be like this for another week or so). I am typing this on a friend's lab-top which I am not familiar with. I thank you very much for: (1) compiling my previous posts to serve as discussion points at the meeting; (2) helping me to understand Khun Sujin's questions; and (3) making a list of our discussion points. When my computer is fully operational once again, I will pick up some of the discussion points and elaborate on them. Meanwhile, I just wish to thank you and Jon for taking me to the meeting. It has always been a tremendous pleasure to see you and talk with you. With metta and deepest respect, Han #74051 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 9:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG Thanks for the sutta quote. Does it relate to a particular comment of yours or mine (sorry if I'm missing the obvious)? Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Jon, All > > "And what is it that he dismantle and does not build up? He dismantles form > and does not build it up. He dismantles feeling ... perception ... > volitional formations ... consciousness and does not build it up. > "And what is it that he abandons and does not cling to? He abandons form > and does not cling to it. He abandons feeling ... perception ... volitional > formations ... consciousness and does not cling to it. > "And what is it that he scatters and does not amass? He scatters form and > does not amass it. He scatters feeling ... perception ... volitional > formations ... consciousness and does not amass it. > "And what is it the he extinguishes and does not kindle? He extinguishes > form and does not kindle it. He extinguishes feeling ... perception ... > volitional formations ... consciousness and does not kindle it." > > Samyutta Nikaya (Connected Discourses of the Buddha, page 916 - 917) > > TG #74052 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Jul 5, 2007 11:33 pm Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok 3 avalo1968 Hello Sarah, Glad you are having a good time in Bangkok. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > - Han's 'simple approach': Don't do evil, do good, purify the mind! Can > anyone do that? Actually the Dhammapada verse our friend Han is quoting has a different last line than the one you cited above. Verse 183 says: Don't do evil, Do good, Purify the mind. This is the teaching of the Buddhas. Hope your stay in Thailand is a productive one for you. Robert A. #74053 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 12:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suttanta and Abhidhamma. TG. nilovg Hi TG, I appreciate your sense of humour (as to ignorant worldling), ha, ha. But I am included. Now more seriously. --------- Op 5-jul-2007, om 21:23 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > To no small extent, this is one of the big advantages the Suttas > have over > the Abhidhamma. They are much more inspirational and affecting. > > TG (Ignorant Worldling) I'll be signing off "IW" in the near > future. ;-) ---------- N: Sutta and Abhidhamma: I agree that the suttas have very impressive reminders and we sure need them together with the Abhidhamma. The suttas can work like a blow of a hammer on the head, or they can give much consolation, absolutely. But the Abhidhamma helps us to understand the deepest meaning of what is taught and points directly to satipatthana. It is wonderful that we have the three parts of the Tipitaka, what a gift. We read in the suttas all the time about the six doors, the experiences through these six doors, the arising of defilements on account of what is experienced, and the way leading to their eradication by pa~n~naa. We learn in detail about the objects understanding has to be developed of. I quote part from what I wrote for our Pali group (as I mentioned to Howard): In the Suttanta we read that the Buddha explained the Dhamma to > different people at different places and adapted his way of > explanation to the dispositions of people. He spoke about persons, > living beings. Through the Abhidhamma we learn that what we call a > person or being are mental phenomena and physical phenomena which are > non-self. > We read in the 'Expositor' (the Co. to the Dhammasangani, the first > book of the Abhidhamma), p. 3,4 that Abhi is used in the sense of > preponderance and distinction. > Also in the Suttanta there is the teaching of Abhidhamma, such as the > teaching about the khandhas, the elements, the aayatanas, but in the > Abhidhamma these are classified in more detail. Also in the Suttanta > the Buddha taught about kamma and vipaaka, but in the Abhidhamma > these are taught in more detail. We learn about all the different > kinds of volition and about all the different kinds of vipaakacitta. > We learn about all the different cetasikas that acompany citta. We > learn about the twentyfour classes of conditions by which phenomena > are related to each other. > In the Suttanta the Buddha taught about the Paticca Samuppada, but > when we apply the twentyfour conditions to this teaching, we gain a > deeper understanding of the links of the Paticca Samuppada, and of > the ways by which each link conditions the following link. > In the Suttanta we receive strong reminders in brief to cultivate > kusala, avoid akusala and purify the mind. Such impressive reminders > are most helpful. If we, next to the Suttanta also study the > Abhidhamma we receive great support so that we come to know exactly > what kusala is and what akusala. We also learn that what we used to > take for kusala and noble conduct is in fact often akusala. We learn > about the deep underlying motives of our actions and speech. We learn > what we did not know before. > When a person speaks harsh words to us we are likely to blame the > other person as the cause of our unhappiness. Through the Abhidhamma > we learn about the real causes of the events of life. Hearing an > unpleasant sound is vipaakacitta, the result of kamma performed in > the past. Unhappy feeling is akusala, and this arises due to the > latent tendency of dosa that has been accumulated. Thus, when we > apply the Abhidhamma we do not blame others but we know that we > ourselves are at fault. > The teaching of the Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma is one teaching > and we can profit from each part of the teachings, we need them all. > This does not mean that everybody should study the whole of the > Abhidhamma, but a basic understanding of some details is most > helpful. It helps us to gain more understanding of the deep meaning > of the Suttanta.> Nina. #74054 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 12:37 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 168, 169 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 168, 169. Intro: In this section the question is dealt with how there can be fruit of past kamma in a following life. How could this happen when there is no transmigration from the past life to the present life? If one believes that there is a person who transmigrates from a past life to the present life, there is eternalism. The questioner asks who experiences the fruit if there is no person who experiences it. In the following sections it is explained again in different ways that there is no absolute identity nor absolute otherness, since there are mere dhammas arising in a continuity of past lives and the present life. --------- Text Vis.168: Here it might be asked: 'If no transmigration is manifested, then after the cessation of the aggregates in this human person, that fruit could be another person's or due to other [kamma], since the kamma that is the condition for the fruit does not pass on there [to where the fruit is]? And whose is the fruit since there is no experiencer? Therefore this formulation seems to be unsatisfactory'. 169. Here is the reply: In continuity the fruit Is neither of nor from another; Seed's forming processes will suit To show the purport of this matter. ****** N: The Tiika elaborates on (the fruit) of another and (kamma) from another as (the belief of) kamma performed by another, kamma generated by another and then states: ‘A mere dhamma (dhammamatta.m) comes to the next life. This should be applied as answer to the question, ‘ whose is the fruit since there is no experiencer.’ The Tiika elaborates on the expression, ‘in one continuity (ekasantaane)’. The meaning is, the continuity of the ‘heap’ of dhammas in which kamma has arisen. As to the text, ‘to show the meaning of this matter’, the Tiika explains that it should not be stated that the fruit is of another or due to another, because of the continuity of cause and fruit. --------- Conclusion: in the following sections this will be further explained. We read in M. III, no 109, Greater Discourse on a full Moon that the Buddha explained what the five khandhas of grasping are and answered questions. He explained what sakkaya di.t.thi, personality belief is which pertains to each of the five khandhas and said that the five khandhas should be seen as “this is not mine, this am I not, this is not myself.” We read that a monk asked: “Then what self do deeds affect that are done by not-self?”The Commentary states that he had the view of eternalism. The Buddha said: “You, monks, have been trained by me (to look for) conditons, now here, now there, in these things and in those.” The Buddha then asked the monks with regard to each of the khandhas whether they were permanent or impermanent, whether what was impermanent painful or pleasant. He asked “ And is it right to regard that which is impermanent, suffering, liable to change, as, ‘This is mine, this am I, this is myself’? The answer was no. In the ultimate sense there is no person who performs kamma and no person who experiences the result of kamma. There are mere dhammas arising and falling away due to conditions, and this is true for the past, the present and the future. There is a heap or pile (pu~nja) of dhammas. Naama-dhammas arise and fall away succeeding one another in continuity. They are as it were a pile of dhammas. Past lives and the present life are all in one continuity, the continuity of the cycle of birth and death. This helps us to see that kamma is accumulated so that it bears fruit later on, also in future lives. There are mere dhammas arising because of their appropriate conditions. ****** Nina. #74055 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. nilovg Hi Larry, It should be formulated more precisely: we are dealing with the order of the D.O.: see XVII, 228: with contact as condition feeling, and feeling (which is vipaaka) conditions craving. What you state here is not said in the Exposition of the D.O. Nina. Op 6-jul-2007, om 1:51 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Correction: it should be the neutral feeling that arises with ear > contact conditions craving for sound. #74056 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 1:29 am Subject: e-card from Bangkok 4b sarahprocter... contd from 4a- - Meaning of far-sighted is patience. Avijja for so long, so must be patience for kusala. Panna understands inclinations and appreciates what is good and useful. - Listening to a lay-person (for a bhikkhu)? Nothing against it in the Vinaya. Mana for some? Sangha referring to ariyans. Panna is not lay or a monk! - Patipatti practice. Without pariyatti, not patipatti. Just practice? Without understanding of pariyatti, cannot be. Don't expect! It doesn't hurt to know, to und. realities now! - Contact leading to vedana. Must be an understanding of nama from the outset, in order to differentiate between phassa, vedana, jivtindriya, manasikara or any other namas.....If don't know, just wandering around, focussing on feeling.... - 'I' there with doubt in darkness. No other way than through understanding. Pariyatti - all realities conditioned. When they arise, only one to be known. When not known, past all the time. - Rt und. knows the difference between calm & attachment. How can there be detachment from vis. object all the time? We think about other kinds of calm, but what about detachment from vis. object now? The way to be free from 'practice disease'!! - Music & tastes (Scott & Nina's discussion). Different tastes. Depends on a)arammanutipitipaccaya (sp?) and b)arammanupanissaya a) as particularly desirable object, so that it becomes b)a decisive support for that object. Depends on accumulations what is seen as particularly desirable. Once you like it, it keeps being a condition for attachment again. Like some like sour foods, some sweet. Some like rain (like KS & Azita) and others like sun (me!). [Also, Nina - there was no coma for K. Kulin as you'd been told/understood and KS didn't use a tape or ear-plugs or anything!] - The controversial 3 baskets...! Cannot be a monk without observing sila, but there must also be panna to be called the teachings. The monk has to develop understanding, but we have to use conventional terms. In the absolute sense, only paramattha dhammas as enumerated in the Abhid. It is abhid. by using of sutta or vinaya. Without the suttas, can understand Abhid, but without enough understanding of realities, can we become enlightened from a line of a sutta? Reading suttas - feeling calm, but if no und. of dhamma, we're lost....There will always be a 'why, why, why?' when reading the Vinaya and the suttas will be read full of self. When there's rt und., there's abstention from evil - no one! - Devadatta (brief discussion bet. Rob K and Ken H #68342). Ordaining as a bhikkhu - just at that moment, great merit for Devadatta. For others not. Depends on accumulations and different times.... - Scott's viriya quote (#72573) on 'initiating' etc. 1st moment weaker etc, the 'stronger' etc, depending on other cetasikas. Also on 4rt efforts as referred to as mixed mundane & supramundane or s'times just supramundante. In the latter, 'completed'. Mundane, when not referring to this, like now! (All discussions lead back to 'like now'!)More on the functions of viriya. - 2nd stage of insight - no more doubt about past and future lives (as Nina with Herman discussed), because of the und. of the succession of cittas. Death known as just a concept! - Ariyans listening/being taught? (Andrew T's qu, if I recall). What else to do? [For an arahant, no samvegga.] - 'laypeople can also practice these four meditation subjects'(#72392, RobK quoting KS), BUT only with an und. of calm and no selection! Also, why she places most emphasis on satipatthana and anatta: 'because it's the absolute truth' to be appreciated/understood 'for those with the accumulations'. - Mike's good quote of KS (#72681)'Cetana plays a very important role because everyone clings to vedanaa'. That's why it's abhisankhara ('great'). That which seeks or searches, always searching for pleasant feeling.... phew! Sukin, Azita, Ven sirs, - pls do add any comments the summaries may have reminded you of! ****************** Comments/questions welcome... Metta, Sarah p.s Han, thanks for you kind post. Pls take your time. I always enjoy having you with me in the discussions a lot. Good team-work! Phil, Rob A, Nina any anyone else - thx for yr welcome feedback. ================ #74057 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) nilovg Dear Connie, very good. This is also food for TG (if he can swallow it ;-)). I find it helpful to remember that in this connection, meaning, attha, can mean effect and dhamma can mean cause. The note ism., VIII, n.68, gives along explanation about sabhaava dhamma. I would avoid the word essence which may be misleading. Later on more on this subject. Nina. Op 6-july-2007, om 1:01 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 22-23), which in > elucidating the two terms atthapa.tisambhidaa, "analytical > knowledge of > meaning," and dhammapa.tisambhidaa, "analytical knowledge of > phenomena," > explains attha as a term for the effect of a cause (Hetuphala) and > dhamma > as a condition (paccaya). In support of this interpretation, the > comentator quotes the Vibha"nga (of the Abhidhamma Pi.taka): > "Knowledge > about aging and death is the analytical knowledge of meaning; > knowledge > about the origin of aging and death is the analytical knowledge of > phenomena ... Knowledge about formations is the analytical > knowledge of > meaning; knowledge about the origin of formations is the analytical > knowledge of phenomena." > 5. Attano pana sabhaava.m dhaarenti ti dahmmaa. Dhs.A.39. Despite this > definition, the comentaries allow to dhamma a wider range of > meaning than > to sabhaava. Thus there are dhammaa which do not support a sabhaava, > namely, certain conceptual entities and the attainment of > cessation. See > the note on the two terms by ~Naa.namoli, Vism., VIII, n.68. #74058 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 1:22 am Subject: e-card from Bangkok 4a sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Wednesday afternoon, after lunch and during some thunderstorms. Ven Dhammanando and Han had left, Sukin had arrived...otherwise, the same participants as in the morning.....some a little sleepy by now! ---------- - Just listening and considering as the conditions for understanding to develop. With listening and understanding, the paramis will develop naturally. - the Lohicca Sutta, DN 12, which JC had quoted on DSG before. He had questioned the passage about the teacher who was enlightened (an arahat, if I recall), but was criticised for teaching those with no interest in the Dhamma. Rightly so, if it's the wrong people at the wrong time in the wrong place. This was the point that Azita elaborated on before. (JC are you still around? If so, we can discuss further if you like. We also checked the Thai & Pali). - the Vimutti Sutta, AN 98 in BB's anthology(#66281)as quoted originally by Mateesha (Are you there, Matheesha?). The last way of release mentioned. Here the bhikkhu doesn't get taught,nor does he teach, nor does he recite,nor does he consider what has been heard. 'Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is penetratingly seen....'. When you go to a funeral, what do you think of? It depends on the accumulation of understanding anytime for any kind of thinking. Any reality, depending on each's panna. There must be conditions for panna to arise. When we wake up, we might think 'more seeing, more visible objects!'. At funerals, we may be smiling. No one could imagine what will happen. Just very natural, like now! - The Piiti Sutta, AN 109 in the anthology (#?, by James, 29th Dec, 2006, 'The Rapture of Seclusion' about Anathapindika and his followers. James, Scott and many of us have discussed this.....Anyone with accumulations for jhana. The sutta is referring to kusala and vipassana of all kinds. For those like the monks who had accumulations for samadhi, not excluding anyone... - Gone to the forest....breathing..(#72098, James's quote). For those who have accumulations for such, even though there is the ref. to 'runs off track'. No matter what is said, always comes back to accumulations... Development of samatha, impediments etc - understanding, 'is there calm now?' etc as leading to more kusala. No selection! Anatta. (#72313, Mike's quote). - Meditation!!! What for? Knowing what? Noting vs Understanding. Practice - what is it? To get what? PB- 'without tools, less kusala': KS -best is panna, base is rt understanding from the beginning. For the base, why not study, consider....? Meditation on vedana? 'Self!'. [to be contd after that last item has been digested:-)] Sarah ========== #74059 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 3:24 am Subject: Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi Colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Morning Jonothan, ... > There is a large portion of society that simply cannot throw > EXPERIENCE nor it's twin, it's duplicate, EDUCATION away but still > that is a major requirement for the stratified society, the society > built on class distinctions and pre-requisites before there is any > verification that the sentient being has a beating, pumping, heart, a > functioning brain, etc. Expereince and Eduation are inseperable. And > so to say that one is of greater value than the other is a > disqualification of both. > ---------------------------- Well said! > > As I see it, an intellectual understanding of the texts does not > necessarily involve > > memorization of the texts. > > colette: memorization of anything has little to no value whatsoever, > in this life. I can memorize thousands of test answers and simply > function as a robot by marking the memorized responses and receiving > gratification for the memorization. That memorization has NO VALUE. > That memorization is such an obviously EMPTY ACT. Judging from your remarks here, I misunderstood your comments about memorization in an earlier post. We don't have any disagreement of substance on this! > sorry, I've gotta go. Thank you for the reply and the inquirey. You're welcome. Sorry I couldn't respond to more parts of your post. Jon #74061 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 3:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? jonoabb Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Jon > > > > Continuing my reply to this post of yours. > > > I find your persistence in communicating with me really stirring, > Jon. I can feel your commitment to the Dhamma. Thanks for the compliment. I sense that you have a similar commitment, but are finding the going a little tough at the moment. I encourage you to hang in there, and to have the confidence that the appreciation of satipatthana is the greatest asset one has. > But I'll back out out of this thread. I don't have the capacity ( > including time-wise) to do anything but repeat my shallow > generalizations. I'm going to avoid talking/writing about sila from > now on at DSG. There are intentional practices taught for the > development of sila, and one of them is avoiding discussions that > one knows from experience always leads to wrong speech. This is a highly questionable proposition, Phil, but I'll let it pass on this occasion ;-)) > On the other hand I am finding other topics that interest me that > I may be able to benefit from discussing here, such as the sutta in > SN on the four kinds of nutrition (edible food, contact, > consciousness and volition.) This really caught Naomi's interest as > well, as no other Dhamma point has before. So I may be asking about > that when I have more time. > > Thanks and have a nice time in Bangkok. Thanks, we're managing to do that. Looking forward to your posts on nutrition (and anything else). Jon #74062 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 4:44 am Subject: e-card from Bkk-5 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Thursday afternoon discussion - Ven Pannabahulo and the 'usual suspects'. Lots of goods 'basics' on realities now, interspersed by the pulling out of lots of texts in English, Pali and Thai for some detailed points. Fun all round.... ----------------------------- - Different techniques? The purpose is to understand reality as not self. The purpose is not to find different ways. - The anattaness of realities, not 'have to do this or that' - Seeing and visible object. No understanding of vis. object if one thinks in terms of details, different colours, shapes and so on. Vis. objects in kalapas and thereby different all the time, conditioned by the other rupas, such as heat. Always different, always affecting each other. Vis. object in turn affects the other rupas. - Meditation again....an activity of mind? What citta? Wrong understanding? Mind focussing on, no understanding, not satipatthana. Just thinking. - Understanding and paramis, if it's not with rt understanding of realities, it's just thinking about paramis. Listening and understanding again... - Space - the 2 kinds - a) open and b)pariccheda, the 3 asankhata dhammas - space, nibbana, concepts. [I plan to write a separate post on this as it's a tricky topic.] - For SCOTT (& TG)! - adhittana-abhinivesa-anusaya We pulled out all the texts for this and adhittana seemed to boil down to being a synonym for upadana (strong clinging). It's a separate word from anusaya (or abhinivesa anusaya). - For Larry & TG again, we had a discussion before on the Psm section under 'vatthus' with the reference to mano at the end. I said I thought it was referring here to the internal ayatanas and this seems correct. A little unusual that here vatthu is referring to these ayatanas. - For Connie & Mike, the big topic was AHOSI. 'Has been done' as heard on the Benares/Varanasi tape is correct. Kammagata. I put up a very spirited defence for the common view (also amongst all the Thais present) that ahosi refers only to deeds that will no longer bring fruit, but KS was adamant and we looked at the evidence. [Also, another post to come on return to home texts]. - Nama and rupa here. Not 'finding', not 'identifying', not nec. to be called any names. - Thinking unknown because of no awareness. Reality arises and falls away in split secs. - For Nina, on panna in mind vs sense door. Panna in the mind door process can und. anything. In the beginning in the mind door, but not a rule. Cannot be known however, as they follow so quickly, so no need to mention. During vipassana nanas can be in both. - 'Observing in the mind', wanting, not understanding. - Awareness slipping in as clinging is usually slipping in......and out! - For Kel (Kel, hope you're there!), (#63689)discussing the text you provided from the comy to the Cariyapitaka on the bodhisattva inspiring samvegga, establishing the faithless and so on. I still think my response was OK. Like now, we're not enlightened, but can still encourage each other in the Dhamma. - For Swee Boon (from Tues or Wed) on D.O. You raised the good question about 'penetrating all stages' vs 'the gist' of DO, ignorance & craving, sankhara, bhava.... Degrees of understanding, just as first there has to be an understanding of realities (nama & rupa), then of conditioned realities, arising and falling away and so on. Not necessary to state all the details, und. without words, but the deeper understanding clearly knows more and more about the DO factors. Understand avijja now! (AT, on the arahants, they listen to dhamma because nothing else can compare to it. No more work, no more samvegga). - beginning of samatha development, again depends on direct understanding and awarenes, not on a 'situation'. Depends on panna, not on wanting to use or have a meditation object. Those who know 'calm' can develop. ****** One more Sat session (for us) tomorrow....We return to H.K. on Sunday eve. Enjoying all the posts while we're away... Metta, Sarah p.s.On the point for Wed on absndoning of doubt about rebirths and the und. of the succession of cittas and death as samutti sacca, I meant to also refer to the good quote Nina gave, #73180 ========== #74063 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 5:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Jon ... > I do not see any essential difference between the understanding of > dhammas and their abandoning. It is the developed understanding of > dhammas/elements that leads to the abandonment of clinging to them. > > In other words, it is developed panna that abandons attachment. > ........................................ > > NEW TG: I agree. But detachment is the "end result" of insight ... but > both of us agree as to that I think. Yes, agreed. > Now, as to what exactly insight is, on > that we may not agree...then again, maybe we would. Well, let's see how we go. To my understanding, insight refers to the direct understanding a presently arising dhamma. This understanding will be of a level appropriate to the individual. But even beginning level insight is insight nonetheless. Insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma is the outcome of satipatthana (indeed, satipatthana can be used to refer to insight). > NEW TG: Do you need to come across a "particular turn of phrase in the > texts" in order to understand that it is conditions that are being detached from? > To me, conditions are not "aspects of dhammas" but rather, conditions are > the "dhammas" (as you call them). OK, if you want to treat conditions as dhammas, I'm happy with that, as each of the links in the chain of DO is a dhamma, and each of the 24 conditions described in the Patthana is described in terms of particular dhammas. So more agreement here ;-)) > I do not see the aim as being "to know present reality perfectly in > all respects and in perfect detail." I see the aim as being the > development of understanding realities to the degree necessary to > eradicate wrong view of them and to penetrate their characteristics. > ...................................... > > NEW TG: To me, conditions are conditions and all of conditionality is > included. When you guys talk about "realities," it is as if there are conditions > that are not actual. So you seem to think there are at least two levels of > conditionality. I don't. But we won't agree on this from past experience. I'm not sure what you mean by "conditions that are not actual" and "at least two levels of conditionality", but whatever it is I'm happy to say that is not how I see things at all ;-)) Perhaps I could ask you to go back to my earlier remarks and elaborate a little on where you disagree. I said: <> Thanks. Jon #74064 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 5:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > Jon: "To my understanding, both 'insight' and 'mundane right view' refer > to a moment of consciousness that is accompanied by panna of the level > of satipatthana, i.e. that understands the true nature of a presently > arising dhamma." > > Larry: That's news to me. Is it your view then that kusala citta can be > wrong path? Only moments of insight/right view are path moments. Other kusala cittas cannot be path moment. So for example, samatha/jhana moments developed as path would be wrong path. Jon #74065 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 5:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply. There was a lot in it and this part gave some pause: NEW TG: "I think of these 'latent tendencies' as 'momentums' or 'pathways' that have been built by past conditioning ... so that when the appropriate conditions come together, they 'slip or slide' in that direction easily. Various mental configurations follow that 'pathway' that has been repetitively built because its the 'path of least resistance.' In that sense, I think of the tendencies as 'formational structures' of the present." Scott: Here, I think, I see some mixture of concepts and would like to comment. To speak in terms of 'past conditioning' versus 'conditions' highlights a conceptual hybridisation, mixing Dhamma with ordinary psychology. To me, 'conditioning' might fit more with a conventional and mundane explanation of psychological process, and might not reflect the sense of the effect of 'conditions' as I understand it. Above, the language is loosely about conceptual psychological structures and their effects. Also, there seems to be a subtle reference to some sort of neuropsychological learning theory and one can imagine that it is neural pathways being strengthened by repeated use and leading to experience and behaviour. The word 'conditioning' certainly has baggage related to behavioural learning theory. I understand, likely wrongly, that the effect of conditions is only in the moment. That there exist latent realities (anusaya) having an effect is again, paradoxically, only in the moment. The above view seems to require a structure which persists and has its effect due to persistent and underlying presence. If the above refers to a 'structuring' effect, and not to 'structures', it might conform to conditionality a-la Pa.t.thana. Psychological structures, at least from within psychoanalytic ego psychology parlance, refer to lasting entities with slow rates of change. This wouldn't be Dhamma since it doesn't conform to the strictures imposed by the characteristics of anatta and anicca. Classical psychoanalytic theory, from Freud's 'structural' period, refers to structures which actually are persistent complexes of functions and memories which are unconscious topographically and which have an effect. These theories do not, as I understand them, contain any sense that consciousness is momentary and rely on a sense of permanence. TG: "Would this be related to repetition condition? Sure, why not. ;-)" Scott: I'm not sure. This is defined in the Pa.t.thana as: "Preceding faultless states are related to subsequent faultless states by repetition condition. Preceding faulty states are related to subsequent faulty states by repetition condition. Preceding functional indeterminate states are related to subsequent functional indeterminate states by repetition condition." U Narada clarifies (pp.47-50): "The condition where a conditioning state relates by causing similar states, the conditioned states, to arise repeatedly after it ceases is known as repetition condition. Or, the condition where a conditioning state relates by habitually causing states similar to itself, the conditioned states, to arise after it ceases is known as repetition condition. "When clothes are kept in a sandalwood casket or box, the fragrant odour of the sandalwood is given to the clothes. This is an example of a thing which has the tendency of giving its attribute to another and strengthening the latter's attribute. Also, when the study is taken up, it is difficult at the beginning but as time goes on and progress is made, it becomes easier by repetition. What was learnt earlier helps to make the study become gradually easier later on. Similarily, in this condition, the preceding impulsion relates by causing the subsequent impulsion of the same class to arise and strengthen it." He also makes the following statement: "The arising of faultless and faulty states at any time or in any existence is due to natural strong-dependence condition but the increase in the powers of these states is due to repetition condition. In this world, all the great and wonderful discoveries, jhaana, supernormal power, Attainment, Path, Fruition and the practice of the Perfections to become a Buddha such as charity and the rest are not possible without repetition condition." TG: "...To say that tendencies 'don't arise but affect other conditions,' not only seems theoretical, but not practical or logical. So to me, somehow they must be present structures/formations that affect other structures/formations." Scott: If the moment of consciousness as it is constituted, and in its complex entirely is being referred to, I'd tend to agree with the above. That is, a given moment of consciousness is 'the entire world' and is very complex and full of 'structure', including, apparently, 'latent' aspects of 'structure' which accompany (but don't arise) each moment. The important caveat which distinguishes this as Dhamma and not just an ancient psychological theory is that this 'world' falls away entirely. The next moment is multiply conditioned, is multiply conditioning, and is present by conditions only - not by 'luck' or 'fortune'. Other conditions are also active in a given moment of consciousness, and the moment consists of many mental factors which also 'flavour' it. I find it very complex (not a flaw). Sincerely, Scott. #74066 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 7:17 am Subject: Ch 6, no 3. Dependence-condition. nilovg Dear friends, As to the fifth class, the four great Elements condition the derived rúpas (upåda rúpas, the rúpas other than the four great Elements [1]) by way of dependence-condition, but the opposite does not apply. Odour is a derived rúpa. It cannot arise by itself, it needs solidity, cohesion, heat and motion. When odour is experienced through the nose, only odour appears, the other rúpas which arise together with it in one group are not experienced. Visible object which is experienced through the eyes and sound which is experienced through the ears need the four great Elements as a foundation, they are conditioned by them by way of dependence. Some phenomena which condition other phenomena by way of dependence have arisen previously to the phenomena they condition and, at that moment, they have not fallen away yet. These are the rúpas which serve as vatthus or bases for the cittas they condition. They cannot be base at their arising moment since they are then too weak. Rúpa can only at the moment of its presence perform the function of vatthu [2]. Thus, it must be prenascent, arisen previously to the citta it conditions by dependence-condition. As we have seen, only at the moment of birth the heart-base arises together with the paìisandhi- citta and serves as its base, but throughout life it arises previously to the cittas for which it serves as base and it conditions them by way of prenascent dependence-condition [3]. We read in the “Patthåna” ( Analytical Exposition, 8. Dependence Condition): (vi )Eye-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by dependence-condition. ( vii) Ear-base is related to ear-consciousness element and its associated states by dependence-condition. (viii) Nose-base is related to nose-consciousness element and its associated states by dependence-condition. (ix) Tongue-base is related to tongue-consciousness element and its associated states by dependence-condition. (x) Body-base is related to body-consciousness element and its associated states by dependence-condition. The five sense-bases have to arise previously to the corresponding sense-cognitions they condition by way of dependence-condition. The previously arisen eyebase is related to seeing-consciousness and the accompanying cetasikas by way of prenascent dependence-condition. Without eyesense, which serves as physical base and doorway, seeing could not arise. The eyebase itself is also conditioned, it is produced by kamma, and it lasts only seventeen moments of citta, which is extremely short. We cling to the notion of “my eyes”, or “my ears”, but they are only rúpas produced by kamma which fall away immediately. The following sutta reminds us of the fact that whatever reality arises because of conditions has to be impermanent. Conditioned nåma and rúpa cannot last. Eyesense and seeing, earsense and hearing are impermanent and not self. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Salåyatana vagga, Third Fifty, Ch 4, The Chapter on Devadaha, § 139, The personal, by way of condition): The eye, monks, is impermanent. Whatever condition, whatever cause there be for the appearance of the eye, that also is impermanent. Owing to impermanence the eye has come into being, monks. How could the eye be permanent? (And it is the same with the other organs of sense). The mind is impermanent.... Owing to impermanence the mind has come into being, monks. How could mind be permanent? So seeing, the well-taught ariyan disciple is repelled by the eye... tongue... mind. Being repelled he lusts not for it... so that he realizes, “for life in these conditions there is no hereafter." ---------- 1. There are twentyeight types of rúpa in all. Apart from the four great Elements there are twentyfour rúpas which are the derived rúpas. Among them are for example colour, odour, flavour, nutritive essence, the eye-base, the other sense-bases and the heart-base. 2. Rúpa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. After its arising moment it lasts sixteen more moments, fifteen moments of its presence and then there is its dissolving moment. 3. The vatthus are during life for the cittas they condition a base- prenascence-dependence-condition, vatthu-purejåta-nissaya-paccaya. *********** Nina. #74067 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 7:43 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Some people think that they should be in quiet surroundings in order to concentrate on the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. However, they merely think of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa and there is no paññå which knows one characteristic of nåma and of rúpa at a time as impermanent and non-self. The goal of the development of satipaììhåna is the eradication of the wrong view of self and later on of all other defilements. The different stages of vipassanå ñåna arise in a specific order; the first stage of mahå-vipassanå, knowledge of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, cannot arise before the preceding three stages which are “tender insight”, taruna vipassanå. If paññå does not distinguish between the characteristic of nåma and of rúpa and if it does not know all kinds of realities as they appear one at a time through the six doors, how could the arising and falling away of one nåma and of one rúpa at a time be experienced? We may find it complicated to study the different stages of vipassanå, but ignorance of these stages may lead to wrong practice. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (II, Book of the Fours, Ch V, 1, Concentration) that the Buddha explained about four ways of developing concentration [1]. The first kind, concentration in samatha leading to jhåna, is the concentration which leads to “happy living in this very life”. The second kind, concentration on “light”, is also developed in samatha. When it is more developed it leads to “ñåna dassana”, “knowledge and vision” [2]. The Commentary, the “Manorathapúraùí” explains that this is the “divine eye” or clairvoyance, a power acquired in samatha. The third kind of concentration leads to “mindfulness and well-awareness”. We read: Herein, monks, the feelings which arise in a monk are evident to him, the feelings which abide with him are evident to him, the feelings which come to an end in him are evident to him. The perceptions (saññå) which arise in him... the trains of thought (vitakka) which arise in him, which abide with him, which come to an end in him are evident to him. This, monks, is called “the making- concentration-to-become which conduces to mindfulness and well- awareness.” As to the fourth kind of concentration, this leads, when it is developed, to the destruction of the åsavas [3]. We read: Herein a monk dwells observing the rise and fall in the five khandhas of grasping [4], thus: Such is rúpa, such is the arising of rúpa, such its vanishing. Such is feeling... such is perception... such are the activities, such the arising of the activities, such their vanishing. Such is consciousness... such the arising of consciousness, such its vanishing. This, monks, is called “the making- concentration-to-become which conduces to the destruction of the åsavas”.... ------------ 1.Samådhi. Samådhi is ekaggatå cetasika, arising with each citta. It focusses on one object and it is the condiiton that citta experiences only one object at a time. There are many degrees of this cetasika. When it is developed in samatha, the development of calm, it focusses on the object of calm and when it is more developed it is a condition for the attainment of jhåna, absorption. In vipassanå samådhi accompanies paññå which sees realities as they are. 2. This is translated as knowledge and insight, but the meaning here is not vipassanå. 3. This is a group of defilements, the “intoxicants”. 4.All conditioned realities, citta, cetasika and rúpa, can be classified as five khandhas or aggregates: rúpakkhandha, including rúpas, vedanåkkhandha, including feeling, saññåkkhandha, perception or remembrance, sankhåra-kkhandha, the khandha of “formations” or “activities”, inccluding all cetasikas other than feeling and perception, viññåùakkhandha, including cittas. ********** Nina. #74068 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 7:59 am Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? philofillet Hi Jon and all > Thanks for the compliment. I sense that you have a similar > commitment, but are finding the going a little tough at the moment. The only thing I'm struggling is the tendency to say shallow, ungenerous things about AS. Other than that, Dhamma is very simple and straightforward for me these days. As Han was quoted as saying by Sarah: "Avoid evil, do good and purify the heart." > I encourage you to hang in there, and to have the confidence that the > appreciation of satipatthana is the greatest asset one has. This was a very helpful comment. Afterwards, I listened to Sayadaw U Silanada's excellent introduction to satipatthana talk, and I think I'll transcribe it as an exercise for myself. (As far as I know, his excellent talks that are up online are not up in transcribed form.) If it seems like I can do it in a nice way, I'll post it. The sayadaws teach Abhidhamma (with plenty of references to "the ancient commentaries) *and* meditation. An appreciation of satipatthana without meditation is like an appreciation of sailing without a boat, or something like that! :) Metta, Phil #74069 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 9:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - Dear Friends, How's the shoulder, Howard? May you have the strength of a 120 year old woman! ------------------------------ Howard: ;-)) Thanks, the shoulder's doing well. ------------------------------ After: [Then the Buddha said,] "O Gotamii, in order to overcome their wrong views, show your supernormal power[s] to the young women who comprehended the Doctrine [but] who have become confused." ... {c: then, among other things:} ... She made [Mount] Sineru into a stick; and turning over the great earth with its roots, she made it into a sunshade. Then carrying it, she walked up and down in the sky. The following is rather long for a post, but enjoy. peace, connie ================================ I'll save this to look at when I return home. We're leaving one day later than anticipated to avid bad flying conditions. With metta, Howard #74070 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 7:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Jon In a message dated 7/6/2007 6:16:32 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: To my understanding, insight refers to the direct understanding a presently arising dhamma. This understanding will be of a level appropriate to the individual. But even beginning level insight is insight nonetheless. Insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma is the outcome of satipatthana (indeed, satipatthana can be used to refer to insight). ............................... TG: Basically we agree on most of the post that contained this part ... but I'd like to make a few comments about this part. The use of the word "Dhamma" may bring with it different meanings to you than to me. It kind of cloaks (for me) the meaning of what your saying. Can we agree that when you refer to a "Dhamma" that it is the same as saying "element" as in the 18 elements? What I might suspect, coming from perhaps a more abhidhamma oriented tradition, is that you will want to consider the 108 consciousnesses as "Dhammas," the 28 rupas as Dhammas, etc. (Sorry if my number are off, I'm a bit rusty.) Now, what I see happen from here, not necessarily with you, is that all these start becoming characterized as "Dhammas" and considered "Ultimate Realities with their own chatacteristics." And what happens is an ontological schemata of "Particle Realities" results. At this level, I can no longer accept that this is what the Buddha taught, and in fact IMO, goes against the stream of the Buddha's teaching. Second point) Insight to me is very importantly what you described above. However, insight is far more comprehensive. Insight is inclusive about understanding principles of conditionality: -- impermanence, affliction, nonself, and applying those principles to such things as "past phenomena,"future phenomena," "external phenomena," etc. This is obviously a conceptual and analytical process. And this is clearly and obviously contained in and instructed in the Satipatthana Sutta. I would agree that applying those principle as a "direct realization" of what "present experiences" are; is even more important. (As long as "what the experiences are" = conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, nonself.) But the conceptual/analytical aspects of insight should not be overlooked, and if they are overlooked, one is not really being truthful as to what the Suttas teach. Also, it needlessly removes a very effective insight tool taught over and over by the Buddha. TG #74071 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott Just briefly... If something is "lying latent" within "present states" and it can affect states in the future, don't you think there is some type of structure (whether physical or psychical or both) to that "latency"? If not, how could something that doesn't exist affect anything? Magic? 2) Do you regard all modern scientific thought as providing no clues or useful information as to how physical or mental states function and interact? The Buddha adopted several Brahmin schemata, including the 5 aggregates, when he saw that they were useful. Do to his teaching of nonself, they took on a new level of meaning. TG #74072 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 2:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas kenhowardau Hi Howard and TG, --------------- H: > I wasn't writing TG with regard to the matter of intentional action, though, of course, such action is a reality, but with regard to TG's point that dhammas are to be disregarded because of their afflictive nature rather than dealt with as entities/"realities" to be known in every possible way. Please reread my post to see what I quoted of TG's post to reply to. (I would quote it, but I'm having a bit of trouble with AOL's features using their "remote" website.) ------------------ Yes, I think I have found the post you are referring to. Like your good self, TG is strongly opposed to the idea that dhammas have their own sabhava or are "entities" in their own right. But this fixation is just the tip of the iceberg. Rather than learning more and more about conditioned dhammas, TG goes so far as to say we should be *disregarding* them. (!) I'm not sure how far you support TG in this. We have discussed it before and several of us have tried to convince him that "disregarding" is a function of fully developed panna, which knows conditioned dhammas in all their intricate details. Perhaps he'll listen to you. :- ) Ken H #74073 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 3:05 pm Subject: Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas kenhowardau Hi Phil, -------------- <. . .> H: > And as I think I said, this passage is dealing with a much deeper, more sophisticated form of liberation than the other one I posted. A kind of detachment that can't be had by intending to have it. --------------- There is no other kind! Don't try to have detachment, Phil, just understand what the Dhamma says about it. Right understanding will see the benefits of detachment and the dangers of attachment, and the rest will follow. --------------------------- Ph: > (Thus I don't really like the teaching "there must be detachment from the beginning." ---------------------------- You misunderstand what people mean by that. They are simply saying that the beginning of the Path (like the middle and the end) is wholesome. Would you really disagree with that? I think you want to encourage beginners, but there is a right way and a wrong way of doing it. We certainly shouldn't be kidding them that their clumsy first steps are the way taught by the Buddha. ------------------------------------- Ph: > I really think it doesn't work that way, can't work that way.) As for the other one I quoted, about getting rid of, not tolerating, obliterating (?) akusala as soon as it arises, well, we can intend to do that and we won't, but the intention to do so is one of the very key factors in doing it far more often than not, eventually. Of course as you say it's all conditions at work. The intention arises as a result of listening to the Buddha's teaching and guidance from Dhamma friends, I guess. I'll drop it there. :) ------------------------------------- You often say that B.Bodhi and the Burmese sayadaws support this view (of the centrality of intention). Can you quote anything they have said to that effect? Not that I doubt you, of course! :-) Stop the presses! I have just seen your latest post, and I think you are intending to do just that. Looking forward to it! Ken H #74074 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. lbidd2 Hi Nina, I have thought and thought about this problem of how could neutral feeling condition craving for sense object and the only thing I could come up with is that it must condition craving by being imperceptible. Because hearing arises with neutral feeling the true flavour of sound is experienced, unmixed with pleasant feeling. Hence there is craving for inherently good sound and craving to quit inherently bad sound. The main problem with this theory is that no one teaches feeling in this way, neither the Buddha nor the commentators. Everyone makes a big deal out of the obvious relationship between feeling and desire: desire desires pleasant feeling and desires to be rid of unpleasant feeling. But looked at in this other way, most of the time desire does not desire pleasant feeling. Rather, desire desires good food, beautiful sights, beautiful scents, and beautiful sounds. These 'good' and 'beautiful' characteristics refer to the inherently desirable rather than pleasant feeling. Pleasant feeling is still an object of desire, but it certainly isn't the only object of desire. Perhaps the reason the guy in charge of heating and air conditioning is never considered an artist is because the experience of temperature is always mixed with pleasant or unpleasant feeling;-) There's no focus. Larry btw someone might wonder why feeling is limited to resultant feeling in the dependent arising formula. This is because each link is either kamma or kamma result and it wouldn't make sense for kamma to be immediately conditioned by contact. L. #74075 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Humourously swimming in a bottle? ksheri3 Good Morning Charles, Do I actually live? That's the question I've been trying to get people to ask for more than 25 years since I always apply the term DEath for life since people, my peers, my compettion, my colleagues, my friends, my enemies, ONLY GIVE death to me as a form of life. This being the case I call a spade a spade and not a heart. Now, if you're in Jonothan's position of having to go back and review what I thought has always been perfectly clear about my self then I'd say what kind of stinking existance do you have where you are forced on a continuous basis to re-assess every action you've done all because you are completely cognizant that your life is built around and on WRONG VIEW? So, playing your game when you ask what country I live in I guess we'll have to suggest that life is where my body is buried and right now I'm still verticle and in Chicago IL U.S.A. <...> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Dear Colette, > > > > I am sorry if the following is considered personal info, I just had to ask. > What nationality are you and in which country do you live? <....> #74076 From: "Leo" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 3:37 pm Subject: Re: ancient place leoaive Hi As far as I know it is good to visit places where Maha Theras were walking. Visiting Vihara? It is nothing left there. I am planning to visit fields and parks. For me mind is mind, vihara is vihara. Leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Leo, > > Thanks for the reflection: <....> > I had this thought: > > The Path arises and falls away. That precise moment of consciousness > is also the Visitor. At the moment the Path arises, the Visitor > arrives. It would be only a brief but powerful visit, I have heard. > Taking the word 'vihaara' in one of its senses, that of 'condition of > life', then this Ancient Way can be visited at the moment of the Path. > This would be an excellent place to visit. > > What do you think of this thought I had? <....> #74077 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon, J: "Only moments of insight/right view are path moments. Other kusala cittas cannot be path moment. So for example, samatha/jhana moments developed as path would be wrong path." L: Here's a counterpoint: MN117.7: "And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment? 'There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.' This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment." L: This seems to me to be a pretty minimum requirement for "right view". At best, simple faith. There is definitely wrong concentration, but my contention is that wrong concentration is not kusala citta. Larry #74078 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 7/6/2007 6:42:15 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Thanks for the reply. There was a lot in it and this part gave some pause: NEW TG: "I think of these 'latent tendencies' as 'momentums' or 'pathways' that have been built by past conditioning ... so that when the appropriate conditions come together, they 'slip or slide' in that direction easily. Various mental configurations follow that 'pathway' that has been repetitively built because its the 'path of least resistance.' In that sense, I think of the tendencies as 'formational structures' of the present." Scott: Here, I think, I see some mixture of concepts and would like to comment. To speak in terms of 'past conditioning' versus 'conditions' highlights a conceptual hybridisation, mixing Dhamma with ordinary psychology. To me, 'conditioning' might fit more with a conventional and mundane explanation of psychological process, and might not reflect the sense of the effect of 'conditions' as I understand it. Above, the language is loosely about conceptual psychological structures and their effects. Also, there seems to be a subtle reference to some sort of neuropsychological learning theory and one can imagine that it is neural pathways being strengthened by repeated use and leading to experience and behaviour. The word 'conditioning' certainly has baggage related to behavioural learning theory. I understand, likely wrongly, that the effect of conditions is only in the moment. That there exist latent realities (anusaya) having an effect is again, paradoxically, only in the moment. The above view seems to require a structure which persists and has its effect due to persistent and underlying presence. If the above refers to a 'structuring' effect, and not to 'structures''structuring' effect, and conditionality a-la Pa.t.thana. Psychological structures, at least from within psychoanalytic ego psychology parlance, refer to lasting entities with slow rates of change. This wouldn't be Dhamma since it doesn't conform to the strictures imposed by the characteristics of anatta and anicca. Classical psychoanalytic theory, from Freud's 'structural' period, refers to structures which actually are persistent complexes of functions and memories which are unconscious topographically and which have an effect. These theories do not, as I understand them, contain any sense that consciousness is momentary and rely on a sense of permanence. ................................... NEW TG: I'm not sure about psychological structures requiring a view of "entities" associated with it. At any rate, you said something to the effect that you didn't understand how these latent tendencies could function. I merely offered a hypothetical way in which they might function. If it doesn't suit your fancy, that's fine. ............................................. TG: "Would this be related to repetition condition? Sure, why not. ;-)" Scott: I'm not sure. This is defined in the Pa.t.thana as: "Preceding faultless states are related to subsequent faultless states by repetition condition. Preceding faulty states are related to subsequent faulty states by repetition condition. Preceding functional indeterminate states are related to subsequent functional indeterminate states by repetition condition." U Narada clarifies (pp.47-50): "The condition where a conditioning state relates by causing similar states, the conditioned states, to arise repeatedly after it ceases is known as repetition condition. Or, the condition where a conditioning state relates by habitually causing states similar to itself, the conditioned states, to arise after it ceases is known as repetition condition. "When clothes are kept in a sandalwood casket or box, the fragrant odour of the sandalwood is given to the clothes. This is an example of a thing which has the tendency of giving its attribute to another and strengthening the latter's attribute. Also, when the study is taken up, it is difficult at the beginning but as time goes on and progress is made, it becomes easier by repetition. What was learnt earlier helps to make the study become gradually easier later on. Similarily, in this condition, the preceding impulsion relates by causing the subsequent impulsion of the same class to arise and strengthen it." ................................. NEW TG: That's exactly my understanding of repetition condition. Its how we learn, among other things. ............................................ He also makes the following statement: "The arising of faultless and faulty states at any time or in any existence is due to natural strong-dependence condition but the increase in the powers of these states is due to repetition condition. In this world, all the great and wonderful discoveries, jhaana, supernormal power, Attainment, Path, Fruition and the practice of the Perfections to become a Buddha such as charity and the rest are not possible without repetition condition." TG: "...To say that tendencies 'don't arise but affect other conditions,' not only seems theoretical, but not practical or logical. So to me, somehow they must be present structures/formatiostructures/formations that affect otherstru Scott: If the moment of consciousness as it is constituted, and in its complex entirely is being referred to, I'd tend to agree with the above. That is, a given moment of consciousness is 'the entire world' and is very complex and full of 'structure', including, apparently, 'latent' aspects of 'structure' which accompany (but don't arise) each moment. The important caveat which distinguishes this as Dhamma and not just an ancient psychological theory is that this 'world' falls away entirely. The next moment is multiply conditioned, is multiply conditioning, and is present by conditions only - not by 'luck' or 'fortune'. Other conditions are also active in a given moment of consciousness, and the moment consists of many mental factors which also 'flavour' it. I find it very complex (not a flaw). ............................................ NEW TG: Very complex indeed. "The present moment" is not actually something one can encapsulate as a static structure. It is continually flowing....continually changing. There is a sequence of "happens," which actually are happening, but there probably is no such thing as "a present moment." There is the present, but nothing "stops" to be a "moment." As it is constantly changing, to think of phenomena as configured in a certain way at any given moment is just hypothetical. As I think Nina would agree, we can only be mindful of one thing at a time. Therefore, the view of a constellation of mental states making up experience as the Abhidhamma and Suttas would support, cannot be directly realized, but is conceptually realized through analysis. I.E., we can piece together various direct experiences and then come to a "reasoned" conclusion. There's nothing wrong with this, it is the way it is. (This paragraph is slightly off our discussions topic perhaps.) As far as "falls away entirely" goes, it seems to follow the Commentarial line of -- each moment things arise and the next moment they altogether cease. This is certainly not the "flavor" that the Suttas project when they speak of impermanence. The Suttas present impermanence as a "gradual change." Not a "digital on/off" type change. “Imposthume, brethren, is a term for body, of the four elements compounded, of parents sprung, on rice and gruel fed, impermanent, of a nature to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered.â€? (The Buddha . . . Book of the Kindred Sayings (KS), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 4, pg. 50) I like this line of yours -- The next moment is multiply conditioned, is multiply conditioning, and is present by conditions only - not by 'luck' or 'fortune'. TG OUT #74079 From: connie Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 7:00 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) / sabhaava nichiconn Dear Nina, All, Also, Larry posted the Vism VIII note 68 in dsg #24246, subject: Vism. XIV, 7; "...it is important to approach the subject with an open mind". peace, connie Nina: I find it helpful to remember that in this connection, meaning, attha, can mean effect and dhamma can mean cause. The note Vism., VIII, n.68, gives a long explanation about sabhaava dhamma. I would avoid the word essence which may be misleading. Later on more on this subject. Nina. #74080 From: connie Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 7:12 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (25) nichiconn Dear Friends, Sorry! The second half of this story was given in #68377. part one RD: XXV -- Mittaa. *135 Born in the time of Vipassi Buddha of a noble family, and become a lady of his father's court, she won meritorious karma by bestowing food and precious raiment on an Arahant Elder Sister. *136 Born finally, in this Buddha-dispensation, in the princely family of the Saakiyas, at Kapilavatthu, she left the world together with Great Pajaapatii the Gotamid, and, going through the requisite training for insight, not long after won Arahantship. *135 Mettaa in the Commentary. Mittaa = amica. Cf. Ps. viii. Both Mittaa and Mettikaa (Ps. xxiv.) may be patronymics, derived ultimately from Mitra (Mithra), the Vedic propitious, friendly Day or Sun god. *136 In the Apadaana it is 'a religieux' of no specified Order. txt: 7. Mittaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 7. The commentary on the verses of [another] Therii Mittaa Caatuddasi.m pa~ncadasinti-aadikaa aparaaya mittaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii vipassissa bhagavato kaale khattiyakule nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa bandhumassa ra~n~no antepurikaa hutvaa vipassissa bhagavato saavika.m eka.m khii.naasavattheri.m disvaa pasannamaanasaa hutvaa tassaa hatthato patta.m gahetvaa pa.niitassa khaadaniiyabhojaniiyassa puuretvaa mahagghena saa.takayugena saddhi.m adaasi. The verses beginning The fourteenth, the fifteenth are Therii Mittaa's. She too performed meritorious deed under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. She was reborn in a Khattiya family at the time of the Blessed One Vipasii. When she came of age, she became a member of the harem of [King] Bandhumaa. She saw a certain therii who had destroyed all her taints and who was a disciple of the Blessed One Vipassii. With her mind favourably disposed towards her, she took the bowl from that therii's hand, filled it with all sorts of excellent food, and gave it to her with a pair of valuable robes. Saa tena pu~n~nakammena devamanussesu sa.msarantii imasmi.m buddhuppaade kapilavatthusmi.m sakyaraajakule nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa satthu santike dhamma.m sutvaa pa.tiladdhasaddhaa upaasikaa ahosi. Saa aparabhaage mahaapajaapatigotamiyaa santike pabbajitvaa katapubbakiccaa vipassanaaya kamma.m karontii na cirasseva saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. Pruitt: Through that meritorious deed she journeyed on among devas and men, and in this Buddha era she was born in the Sakyan royal family in Kapilivatthu. When she came of age, she heard the Doctrine in the presence of the Buddha and became a lay follower who had gained faith. Afterwards, she went forth in the presence of Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii, fulfilled the preliminary duties, devoted herself to the gaining of insight, and she attained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations after a very short time. Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.1.46-59)- "Nagare bandhumatiyaa, bandhumaa naama khattiyo; tassa ra~n~no ahu.m bhariyaa, ekajjha.m caarayaamaha.m. "Rahogataa nisiiditvaa, eva.m cintesaha.m tadaa; aadaaya gamaniiya~nhi, kusala.m natthi me kata.m. "Mahaabhitaapa.m ka.tuka.m, ghoraruupa.m sudaaru.na.m; niraya.m nuuna gacchaami, ettha me natthi sa.msayo. As it is said in the Apadaana: In the town of Bandhumatii, the Khattiya named Bandhumaa [was king]; I was that king's wife and lived together with him. [One day] seated alone, I thought to myself, "Indeed, I have not done any good that I can take with me [to a future life]. "Now I shall go to a hell that is extremely hot, terrible, of frightening appearance, completely pitiless. I have no doubt about that." "Raajaana.m upasa"nkamma, ida.m vacanamabravi.m; eka.m me sama.na.m dehi, bhojayissaami khattiya. "Adaasi me mahaaraajaa, sama.na.m bhaavitindriya.m; tassa patta.m gahetvaana, paramannena puurayi.m. "Puurayitvaa paramanna.m, gandhaalepa.m akaasaha.m; jaalena pidahitvaana, vatthayugena chaadayi.m. I went to the king and said these words to him: "Give me a recluse, O Khattiya, and I shall feed him." The great king gave me an ascetic with developed faculties. I took his bowl and had it filled with the most excellent [food]. Having had [his bowl] filled with excellent food, I annointed it with perfume, having covered it with a net and having covered it with a pair of cloths. "Aaramma.na.m mama.m eta.m, saraami yaavajiivita.m; tattha citta.m pasaadetvaa, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Ti.msaana.m devaraajuuna.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m; manasaa patthita.m mayha.m, nibbattati yathicchita.m. "Viisaana.m cakkavattiina.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m; ocitattaava hutvaana, sa.msaraami bhavesvaha.m. Throughout my life, I remembered that as my support [for contemplation]. My mind was gladdened through that, and I went to the Taavati.msa realm. I ruled as the chief queen of thirty deva kings. Whatever I wished for in my mind came to be just as I wanted it. I ruled as the chief queen of twenty wheel-turning monarchs. My mind having been strengthened, I journeyed on in [many] lives. "Sabbabandhanamuttaaha.m apetaa me upaadikaa; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi daani punabbhavo. "Ekanavutito kappe, ya.m daanamadadi.m tadaa; duggati.m naabhijaanaami, pi.n.dapaatassida.m phala.m. I am free from all bonds. All my attachment is gone. All my taints are consumed. Now there is no renewed existence. Ninety-one aeons since I gave that gift, I am not aware of [having lived in] a realm of misery. This is the consequence of that alms food. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. === connie #74081 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 3:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] suttanta and Abhidhamma. TG. TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/6/2007 1:34:35 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > This does not mean that everybody should study the whole of the > Abhidhamma, but a basic understanding of some details is most > helpful. It helps us to gain more understanding of the deep meaning > of the Suttanta.> Nina. ............................. TG: I agree. #74082 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 8:28 pm Subject: A Siila Perspective corvus121 Hi all Yes, we have all been enjoying the Siila Corner thread. Here is another perspective I came across recently. Is it the right perspective? Is it different from Siila Corner or the same? YOU be the judge! ;-) "There are two ideas of morality: to be good and to do good. Only the first one is real morality. The second one may be a means: one can do good in order to become good, but this is rare. People do good actions, which appear entirely altruistic; yet fundamentally they are egoistic, motivated by acquisitiveness, desire for merit, bliss, heaven, reward, or even motivated by fear to avoid punishment, purgatory, hell. All these so-called good actions are inspired by selfishness. But if the doctrine of soullessness is well understood, all selfish motives will be absent. Then one will only strive to become good, to be good, to be in harmony with all through the absence of selfish isolation. Then alone will love be pure and perfect by necessity; it will be without limitation, restriction and bondage, because it does not make a distinction between self and others. Love which loves some is self-love, because it is based on choice. Love which is limited is hatred, because it is exclusive. 'Moral standards,' said Jawaharlal Nehru, 'should not be based on a highly metaphysical doctrine of sin, but should be in relation to social needs.' Good in Buddhism stands for mental brightness (sobhana)and for skilfulness (kusala), while any wrong action is rooted in ignorance and delusion (moha). It is the not-understanding of the real value of things which makes man crave and cling to that which leads to harm." From "Basic Buddhism" by Bhikkhu Dhammapala (All-Ceylon Buddhist Students'Union, 1945). Best wishes Andrew #74083 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 6, 2007 11:56 pm Subject: Re: A Siila Perspective kenhowardau Hi Andrew, This Bhikkhu explains things differently from any way we are used to at DSG. So I don't know whether to agree or disagree - so much needs further explanation. Or so it seems to me. He talks about 'good actions inspired by selfishness,' and I think such things are possible provided we are talking about two or more different mind moments. But is that what he is talking about? Another of the many things that need further explanation is, "Love which is limited is hatred, because it is exclusive." It is attachment, surely, not hatred. What is he on about? And then there is: "It is the not-understanding of the real value of things which makes man crave and cling to that which leads to harm." Fair enough: but when he says 'things' here is he referring to paramattha dhammas, or pannatti? More information, please Andrew! Ken H #74084 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 2:24 am Subject: Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas philofillet Hi Ken > You often say that B.Bodhi and the Burmese sayadaws support this view > (of the centrality of intention). Can you quote anything they have > said to that effect? Not that I doubt you, of course! :-) > > Stop the presses! I have just seen your latest post, and I think you > are intending to do just that. Looking forward to it. Yes, this might be a good way for me to participate without taking cheap potshots at AS, which I really don't enjoy doing, except at the very moment that I am doing it. I think if I were to transcribe portions of BB's MN talks people would be aghast! On the other hand, maybe I would be aghast to find he wasn't being as straight-forward as I thought. It'll probably have to wait until the autumn, when the baseball season is finished. Metta, Phil #74085 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 7-jul-2007, om 1:20 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > btw someone might wonder why feeling is limited to resultant > feeling in > the dependent arising formula. This is because each link is either > kamma > or kamma result and it wouldn't make sense for kamma to be immediately > conditioned by contact. -------- N: I think that solves the question. Under contact, it is contact, phassa arising with vipaakacittas: Vis. XVII, 231, 232: 32 contacts with vipaakacittas. Same is said in the Co. to Sammaadi.t.thi sutta, and I did some counting, because there details were not given. These Co are very short and therefore I did not mention it. Ten vipaakacittas at the fivefold bases (kusala vipaakacitta and akusala vipaakacitta). In each doorway (mindcontact included) taking into account sensuous clinging, eternalism, annihilationism, makes three times six, is eighteen. Thus far we have twentyeight vipaakas. Then we have: registration, rebirthconsciousness, bhavangacitta and cuticitta, four more. Thus, thirtytwo in all. We have to remember Connie's post with the Co. and subco to the Mahaaniddesasutta: how deep the D.O. is. We have to accept that we cannot understand all of it. We should not follow our own interpretation. Nina. #74086 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 4:04 am Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? jonoabb Hi Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > Hi Jon and all > > > Thanks for the compliment. I sense that you have a similar > > commitment, but are finding the going a little tough at the > moment. > > The only thing I'm struggling is the tendency to say shallow, > ungenerous things about AS. Other than that, Dhamma is very simple > and straightforward for me these days. As Han was quoted as saying > by Sarah: "Avoid evil, do good and purify the heart." Yes, simple and straightforward. As long as we remember that kusala includes right view (the path factor), akusala includes wrong view, and purification means the eradication of kilesa rather than their mere suppression ;-)) > > I encourage you to hang in there, and to have the confidence that > the > > appreciation of satipatthana is the greatest asset one has. > > This was a very helpful comment. Afterwards, I listened to Sayadaw > U Silanada's excellent introduction to satipatthana talk, and I > think I'll transcribe it as an exercise for myself. (As far as I > know, his excellent talks that are up online are not up in > transcribed form.) If it seems like I can do it in a nice way, I'll > post it. The sayadaws teach Abhidhamma (with plenty of references > to "the ancient commentaries) *and* meditation. An appreciation of > satipatthana without meditation is like an appreciation of sailing > without a boat, or something like that! :) Good. Looking forward to reading the sayadaw's material (I probably won't comment). Jon #74087 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 4:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > J: "Only moments of insight/right view are path moments. Other kusala > cittas cannot be path moment. So for example, samatha/jhana moments > developed as path would be wrong path." > > L: Here's a counterpoint: > > MN117.7: "And what, bhikkhus, is right view that is affected by the > taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment? 'There > is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is > fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the > other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn > spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and > brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and > declare this world and the other world.' This is right view affected by > taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment." > > L: This seems to me to be a pretty minimum requirement for "right view". In this thread to date we have been using the term 'right view' to refer to right view as a factor of the NEP. For instance, I gave this definition the other day: <> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74029 This is the context in which right view is usually mentioned in discussions here. However, right view may also refer to non-NEP consciousness, for example, the view held by someone who believes in kamma but has never heard the teachings about insight. In this case there is no panna of the level of satipatthana involved (although there may be panna of the level of samatha). The consciousness is actually a kind of samatha. This is the kind of right view being referred to in the passage from MN 117. Right view but not of the path. So we need to distinguish between 'right' as indicating path-factor and 'right' as meaning the same as kusala (and 'wrong' taking its meaning accordingly). > At best, simple faith. In either meaning of right view, the consciousness is accompanied by the mental factor of saddha. Saddha accompanies every kusala citta (including those not accompanied by either kind of right view). > There is definitely wrong concentration, but my > contention is that wrong concentration is not kusala citta. See my comments above regarding the 2 kinds of 'right' and 'wrong'. If one is talking specifically about path factors, then kusala that is not of the level of satipatthana, and hence the accompanying concentration, may be considered to be wrong path. Hoping this clarifies. Jon #74088 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 6:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and TG) - H: > I wasn't writing TG with regard to the matter of intentional action, though, of course, such action is a reality, but with regard to TG's point that dhammas are to be disregarded because of their afflictive nature rather than dealt with as entities/"realities" to be known in every possible way. Please reread my post to see what I quoted of TG's post to reply to. (I would quote it, but I'm having a bit of trouble with AOL's features using their "remote" website.) ------------------ Yes, I think I have found the post you are referring to. Like your good self, TG is strongly opposed to the idea that dhammas have their own sabhava or are "entities" in their own right. But this fixation is just the tip of the iceberg. Rather than learning more and more about conditioned dhammas, TG goes so far as to say we should be *disregarding* them. (!) ------------------------------------ Howard: First of all, you have no basis to speak of "fixation". Should I, with regard to your emphasis on present moment speak of "fixation"? Should I speak of obsession? Or should I simply speak of considering a matter to be of importance? As for 'disregarding', I took that to mean "not fixating on", and "permitting disenchantment with respect to". Nothing whatsoever should be clung to, but, instead should be known (by means of serious attention and with developed wisdom) as it is: anicca, dukkha, and anatta, and should thus be relinquished. (Incidentally, as I recall, TG didn't initiate the word 'disregard' but merely emphasized its being used.) ------------------------------------- I'm not sure how far you support TG in this. We have discussed it before and several of us have tried to convince him that "disregarding" is a function of fully developed panna, which knows conditioned dhammas in all their intricate details. Perhaps he'll listen to you. :- ) ------------------------------------- Howard: All details are, no doubt, available to be known, but as far as I'm concerned, liberating wisdom consists in knowing the tilakkhana in all phenomena, and most especially in knowing dependent origination directly, inasmuch as D.O. is the reality that really is the basis for the tilakkhana. When, for example, hardness or visible object is what is experienced, the knowing of it with wisdom would consist in seeing its dependently arisen nature which makes it impermanent, unsatisfying, and not-self, and the result would be an internal letting go of it. As far as admonishing TG or anyone else, I'll leave that for others to do, because doing so involves either more wisdom than I have or more presumptuousness. I will, and do, offer my opinions, as do you. They are put out there for the consideration of others but not for getting them to "listen" to me (i.e., to agree ;-). ---------------------------------------- Ken H ====================================== With metta, Howard #74089 From: connie Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 6:26 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (62) nichiconn Dear Friends, 9. Navakanipaato IX. The Section of the Group of Nine [Verses] 1. Va.d.dhamaatutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 1. The commentary on the verses of Therii Va.d.dha-Maataa part 1 of 5 Navakanipaate maa su te va.d.dha lokamhiiti-aadikaa va.d.dhamaataaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii, anukkamena sambhatavimokkhasambhaaraa hutvaa Pruitt: In the section of nine [verses], the verses beginning May you not have, Va.d.dha, [craving] for the world are Therii Va.d.dha-Maataa's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. In due course she accumulated the prerequisites for complete release. imasmi.m buddhuppaade bhaarukacchakanagare kulagehe nibbattitvaa vayappattaa patikula.m gataa eka.m putta.m vijaayi. Tassa va.d.dhoti naama.m ahosi. Tato pa.t.thaaya saa va.d.dhamaataati vohariiyittha. Saa bhikkhuuna.m santike dhamma.m sutvaa pa.tiladdhasaddhaa putta.m ~naatiina.m niyyaadetvaa bhikkhunupassaya.m gantvaa pabbaji. Ito para.m ya.m vattabba.m, ta.m va.d.dhattherassa vatthumhi (theragaa. a.t.tha. 2.va.d.dhattheragaathaava.n.nanaa) aagatameva. Va.d.dhatthera~nhi attano putta.m santaruttara.m ekaka.m bhikkhunupassaye attano dassanatthaaya upagata.m aya.m therii "kasmaa tva.m ekako santaruttarova idhaagato"ti codetvaa ovadantii- 204. "Maa su te va.d.dha lokamhi, vanatho ahu kudaacana.m; maa puttaka punappuna.m, ahu dukkhassa bhaagimaa. 205. "Sukha~nhi va.d.dha munayo, anejaa chinnasa.msayaa; siitibhuutaa damappattaa, viharanti anaasavaa. 206. "Tehaanuci.n.na.m isiihi, magga.m dassanapattiyaa; dukkhassantakiriyaaya, tva.m va.d.dha anubruuhayaa"ti.- Imaa tisso gaathaa abhaasi. In this Buddha era, she was born in the home of a [good] family in the town of Bhaarukacchaka. When she came of age, she went to her husband's household, and she gave birth to a son. He was named Va.d.dha. From that time on, she was called Va.d.dha-Maataa ("Va.d.dha's mother"). She heard the Doctrine in the presence of a bhikkhu, obtained faith, and handing her son over to relatives, she went to the bhikkhuniis' monastery and went forth. What happened after that has come down in the story of Thera Va.d.dha {Ps. ccii}. When her son, Thera Va.d.dha, [dressed in] his inner and outer [robes only] went alone to the bhikkhuniis' monastery to show himself [to her], the therii asked him, "Why have you come here alone [dressed in only] your inner and outer [robes]?" And urging him on, she exhorted him through speaking these three verses: 204. May you not have, Va.d.dha, craving for the world at any time. Child, do not share in pain again and again. 205. The sages dwell happily indeed, Va.d.dha, free from lust, with doubts cast off, become cool, having attined self-taming, being without taints. 206. Va.d.dha, devote yourself to the way practised by those seers for the attainment of insight, for the putting of an end to pain. RD: O nevermore, my Va.d.dha, do thou stray Into the jungle of this world's desires. Child of my heart! come thou not back and forth To share, reborn, in all the ills of life. (204) True happiness, O Va.d.dha mine, is theirs Who, wise and freed from longing and from doubt, Cool and serene, have tamed the craving will, And dwell immune from all the deadly drugs. (205) The Way that Sages such as these have trod - Leading to that pure vision how they may Make a sure end of Ill - do thou, dear lad, Study and cause to grow *305 to thine own weal. (206) *305 Anubruuhaya = va.d.dheyyaasi (Commentary). The name Va.d.dha means grow, increase, develop; often applied to religious culture. ===tbc, connie *CAF Rhys Davids: Psalms of the Sisters, with the Chronicle from the Commentary by Dhammapaala entitled 'The Elucidation of the Highest Meaning'. PTS 1909 @ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html *Wm Pruitt: The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis: Theriigaathaa-A.t.thakathaa, Paramatthadiipanii VI by Aacariya Dhammapaala. PTS 1999 *txt/cy: vri #74090 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 6:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for continuing the discussion: TG: "Just briefly... If something is 'lying latent' within 'present states' and it can affect states in the future, don't you think there is some type of structure (whether physical or psychical or both) to that "latency"? If not, how could something that doesn't exist affect anything? Magic? Scott: I don't understand anusaya completely. I can say that I don't think that there will be any 'physical' structure at all - anusaya has to do with naama (as far as I understand it). And, given that I don't see impermanence operating on a 'slow-rate-of-dissolution' basis, I don't think that there can be any 'structure' that persists beyond the moment. As far as 'psychichal structure' goes, this would be concept, in my mind, since 'the psyche' is a concept. I think of kamma - the result occurs at a moment future to the action which inevitably causes it to arise. The metaphor of storage can't work if one accepts that the moment ceases. Some other 'mechanism of action' must account for 'latency' or 'dormancy'. I know that the example of a lamp, flame, and wick has often been cited, for example - the flame is never the same at any moment yet it burns on the basis of the moment it was first ignited until the fuel is exhausted. Anusaya doesn't seem to refer to actually arisen dhammas, but rather to some sort of potential for their arising and - here is the important part for me - the arising of any dhamma 'held in potential' depends on conditions. This is my own thinking and so dismiss it immediately. Someone who knows ought to correct me and stop this useless speculating. TG: "Do you regard all modern scientific thought as providing no clues or useful information as to how physical or mental states function and interact?" Scott: I don't think 'modern scientific thought' is comparable to Dhamma. I don't look there at all. It is rife with theories but no Dhamma. I just try to understand Dhamma qua Dhamma. Sorry. NEW TG: "I'm not sure about psychological structures requiring a view of 'entities' associated with it." Scott: From the Oxford dictionary: "structure • noun 1 the arrangement of and relations between the parts of something complex. 2 a building or other object constructed from several parts. 3 the quality of being well organized. • verb give structure to. â€" ORIGIN Latin structura, from struere ‘to build’." And: "entity • noun (pl. entities) a thing with distinct and independent existence. â€" ORIGIN French entité, from Latin ens ‘being’." Scott: This is the old debate, right? I think that to posit a 'structure' is to posit an 'entity'. Here we enter the territory of sabhaava - a given dhamma has its characteristic. I think I refer to the verb 'structuring' when I consider anusaya and related effects. NEW TG: "...'The present moment' is not actually something one can encapsulate as a static structure. It is continually flowing ....continually changing. There is a sequence of 'happens,' which actually are happening, but there probably is no such thing as 'a present moment.' There is the present, but nothing 'stops' to be a 'moment.' As it is constantly changing, to think of phenomena as configured in a certain way at any given moment is just hypothetical'..." Scott: Here we grind to a halt since I accept the commentarial explanation that citta arises and falls away completely, serving as condition for the next, and so on. The view above, to me, is permanence, not impermanence. 'Continual change', without making clear a seamless end and beginning of moments, is permanence, in my opinion. TG: "As far as "falls away entirely" goes, it seems to follow the Commentarial line of -- each moment things arise and the next moment they altogether cease. This is certainly not the "flavor" that the Suttas project when they speak of impermanence. The Suttas present impermanence as a "gradual change." Not a "digital on/off" type change." Scott: Without the Abhidhamma, one is prone to misunderstand the suttas. as far as I'm concerned. But we just see it differently. Sincerely, Scott. #74091 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 7:28 am Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? philofillet Hi Jon "Avoid evil, do good and purify the heart." > > Yes, simple and straightforward. As long as we remember that kusala > includes right view (the path factor), Maybe this is the gist of my discontent with AS. Am I right in suspecting that you folks only recognize the supra-mundane path factor as a path factor? If so, it certainly isn't surprising why we just aren't on the same page - I am not a supra-mundane path factor kind of guy. If I had followed past debates more closely I would know what answer will be coming, because the same answer always comes from dedicated students of Acharn Sujin. I respect that, actually. Consistency of view, unwavering. All good Dhamma teachers have that. But some are more correct than others, obviously. Maybe she is the correct one. Quite possible. So I'll ask again. Does she recongnize mundane path factors? Thanks. This will probably help settle my "troubles." akusala includes wrong view, > and purification means the eradication of kilesa rather than their > mere suppression ;-)) Yes, the "purify the mind" part - I don't pay much attention to that. That will come, or it won't. For now, avoiding evil is enough, and doing good results from that. And that good helps to provide conditions for a deeper good. If someone tells me that avoiding evil is only kusala when it is a suprama-mundane path factor - well, is that what you're saying? If so, we'll have to agree to disagree. And I'll suspect you folks are misguided elitists, because all other teachers I've heard praise mundane path factors. > > > > I encourage you to hang in there, and to have the confidence > Good. Looking forward to reading the sayadaw's material (I probably > won't comment). Won't be any day soon. Not until I've seen my aversion towards AS eased, otherwise it'll just be an exercise in stirring up discord. I think that day will come, when I understand more clearly what she is getting at. You said once of her -"she always ends with a riddle." I thought that was interesting. I don't find many riddles in the tipitaka. I guess koans are riddles, but they aren't in the tipitaka, are they? I used to think the enigmatic aspect of AS talks (which you yourself acknowledged with that "she always ends with a riddle") was a sign of their depth - and maybe I was right. I want to reserve the right to say I was wrong and come leaping happily back into the fold! Metta, Phil #74092 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 7:38 am Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? philofillet Hi again > For now, avoiding evil is enough, > and doing good results from that. And that good helps to provide > conditions for a deeper good. I was just thinking out loud here. It's not a chain reaction like that! But I think there is a reason that "avoid evil" is always mentioned before "do good." Good to keep that in mind, because I've heard people in the recorded talks quote it as "do good, avoid evil, purify the mind." That could be an important misquote to consider, I don't know. Metta, Phil #74093 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) nilovg Dear Scott, well said. The condition that operates is actually pakatupanissaya paccaya, natural strong dependence-condition. Kh Sujin used to refer here to accumulations. Nina. Op 7-jul-2007, om 15:29 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Anusaya doesn't seem to refer to actually arisen dhammas, but rather > to some sort of potential for their arising and - here is the > important part for me - the arising of any dhamma 'held in potential' > depends on conditions. #74094 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 7:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and TG) - Dear TG, Thanks for continuing the discussion: TG: "Just briefly... If something is 'lying latent' within 'present states' and it can affect states in the future, don't you think there is some type of structure (whether physical or psychical or both) to that "latency"? If not, how could something that doesn't exist affect anything? Magic? Scott: I don't understand anusaya completely. I can say that I don't think that there will be any 'physical' structure at all - anusaya has to do with naama (as far as I understand it). And, given that I don't see impermanence operating on a 'slow-rate-of-dissolution' basis, I don't think that there can be any 'structure' that persists beyond the moment. As far as 'psychichal structure' goes, this would be concept, in my mind, since 'the psyche' is a concept. I think of kamma - the result occurs at a moment future to the action which inevitably causes it to arise. The metaphor of storage can't work if one accepts that the moment ceases. Some other 'mechanism of action' must account for 'latency' or 'dormancy'. I know that the example of a lamp, flame, and wick has often been cited, for example - the flame is never the same at any moment yet it burns on the basis of the moment it was first ignited until the fuel is exhausted. Anusaya doesn't seem to refer to actually arisen dhammas, but rather to some sort of potential for their arising and - here is the important part for me - the arising of any dhamma 'held in potential' depends on conditions. This is my own thinking and so dismiss it immediately. Someone who knows ought to correct me and stop this useless speculating. TG: "Do you regard all modern scientific thought as providing no clues or useful information as to how physical or mental states function and interact?" Scott: I don't think 'modern scientific thought' is comparable to Dhamma. I don't look there at all. It is rife with theories but no Dhamma. I just try to understand Dhamma qua Dhamma. Sorry. NEW TG: "I'm not sure about psychological structures requiring a view of 'entities' associated with it." Scott: From the Oxford dictionary: "structure • noun 1 the arrangement of and relations between the parts of something complex. 2 a building or other object constructed from several parts. 3 the quality of being well organized. • verb give structure to. â€" ORIGIN Latin structura, from struere ‘to build’." And: "entity • noun (pl. entities) a thing with distinct and independent existence. â€" ORIGIN French entité, from Latin ens ‘being’." Scott: This is the old debate, right? I think that to posit a 'structure' is to posit an 'entity'. Here we enter the territory of sabhaava - a given dhamma has its characteristic. I think I refer to the verb 'structuring' when I consider anusaya and related effects. NEW TG: "...'The present moment' is not actually something one can encapsulate as a static structure. It is continually flowing ....continually changing. There is a sequence of 'happens,' which actually are happening, but there probably is no such thing as 'a present moment.' There is the present, but nothing 'stops' to be a 'moment.' As it is constantly changing, to think of phenomena as configured in a certain way at any given moment is just hypothetical'..." Scott: Here we grind to a halt since I accept the commentarial explanation that citta arises and falls away completely, serving as condition for the next, and so on. The view above, to me, is permanence, not impermanence. 'Continual change', without making clear a seamless end and beginning of moments, is permanence, in my opinion. TG: "As far as "falls away entirely" goes, it seems to follow the Commentarial line of -- each moment things arise and the next moment they altogether cease. This is certainly not the "flavor" that the Suttas project when they speak of impermanence. The Suttas present impermanence as a "gradual change." Not a "digital on/off" type change." Scott: Without the Abhidhamma, one is prone to misunderstand the suttas. as far as I'm concerned. But we just see it differently. Sincerely, Scott. ======================================= It occurs to me that if "moment" is taken to the ultimate, radical point of zero-duration, this dispells the "antagonism" between staccato view and continuous view. As I conceive of matters, "during" a zero-duration moment nothing happens but is in the midst of happening. On that occasion, there is knowing of object-content in a variety of ways: mere being conscious of it, feeling it, recognizing it, attending to it, and so on. On every subsequent occasion, either the object-content or some aspect of the knowing of it is different, and thus the prior state of affairs "has ceased". As I see it, impermanence of phenomena requires nothing more than that whatever is in effect at the moment will, at some subsequent time, no longer be in effect. This perspective on impermanence is neutral between the contiguous, positive-duration, citta-packet view and a continuous, transformational view, and, in any case, considering "moments" to have zero duration harmonizes the two perspectives. With metta, Howard #74095 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 8:07 am Subject: Natthi Paccayo - To Scott Duncan --- Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence abhidhammika Dear Scott How are you? I am intervening again, uninvited! When TG asked "how could something that doesn't exist affect anything? Magic?", I thought you might have cited a Pa.t.thaana condition 'Natthi paccayo'. As you didn't (perhaps you have your reasons), I briefly dropped by without properly following the thread. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org TG: "Just briefly... If something is 'lying latent' within 'present states' and it can affect states in the future, don't you think there is some type of structure (whether physical or psychical or both) to that "latency"? If not, how could something that doesn't exist affect anything? Magic? . #74096 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, When right understanding of nåma and rúpa is developed in vipassanå, there is also concentration, samådhi cetasika, which accompanies paññå, but one does not have to think of concentration. If one tries to concentrate, there may be lobha, attachment, accompanied by wrong view. The Commentary to the above quoted text gives a clear explanation about awareness of only one object at a time, in the context of the knowledge of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. The objects of paññå are the same, no matter one begins to develop satipatthåna or later on when paññå becomes more accomplished as the stages of vipassanå ñåna arise. The objects are all conditioned nåma and rúpa which are here classified as the five khandhas. We read that the monk who realizes “udayabbaya ñåna” [1] sees the arising and falling away of realities. He knows that this is rúpa, that only this rúpa appears and that apart from this rúpa no other rúpa appears. He realizes that this is the origination of rúpa, the arising of this rúpa, and he realizes its extinction. And it is the same for feeling and the other khandhas. In the case of right mindfulness of the feeling which appears there is only that object, no other object appears at that moment. It is the same for saññå, remembrance or perception, for the other cetasikas apart from feeling and perception (sakhårakkhandha, the khandha of formations), and for citta. At this moment it seems that seeing and hearing appear at the same time, but there is only one citta experiencing one object at a time. When seeing is the object of mindfulness, just that reality appears, and no other reality appears at that moment. When seeing appears there cannot be thinking at the same time. When we hear the sound of a fan we may think of the concept “fan”, but we do not think all the time of concepts, also hearing arises in between. Sati can begin to notice one characteristic at a time, such as hearing or sound. If that is the case we should remember that sati is conditioned by listening, that it is not self who notices different characteristics. If we forget this there is clinging to the self. So long as the difference between nåma and rúpa is not known doubt will arise about their characteristics, but doubts disappear by the development of satipatthåna, Acharn Santi reminded us. -------- 1. The first stage of maha-vipassanå ñåna. ******* Nina. #74097 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 11:25 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 7, no 1. Decisive Support-Condition. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 7 Decisive Support-Condition (Upanissaya-Paccaya) Part I Upanissaya-paccaya, which can be translated as decisive support- condition or strong dependence-condition, occurs when a phenomenon assists another phenomenon by being a powerful inducement [1]. There are three kinds of upanissaya-paccaya: 1. decisive support of object, årammanúpanissaya-paccaya 2. decisive support of proximity, anantarúpanissaya-paccaya 3. decisive support of natural condition, pakatúpanissaya-paccaya As to strong dependence or decisive support-condition of object, the object is the paccaya, condition, for the citta which experiences it, the paccayupanna dhamma, conditioned dhamma, and that object conditions the citta by way of strong dependence. We see in the “Patthåna” (Faultless Triplet, VII, Investigation Chapter, Strong Dependence, § 423), that the objects which are the conditioning factors are the same as in the case of object predominance-condition, årammaùådhipati paccaya (see Ch 3), thus, they have to be desirable objects. The cittas which are conditioned by way of decisive support of object are also the same types as in the case of object predominance-condition. Thus, the realities involved in these two kinds of conditions are the same, but there is a difference in the conditioning force of object predominance-condition and of decisive support-condition of object. In the case of object predominance- condition the desirable object is highly esteemed by the citta and cetasikas concerned so that they give preponderance to it. In the case of decisive support-condition of object the desirable object is a powerful inducement, a cogent reason, for the arising of the citta and cetasikas concerned, which are strongly dependent on that object. Desirable objects which are object predominance-condition can also, at the same time, be decisive support-condition of object, a powerful inducement for the arising of the cittas concerned. Phenomena can be conditioned by several types of conditions at the same time. Certain objects cannot be object predominance-condition nor decisive support-condition of object, because they are undesirable. Among them is the type of body-consciousness which is akusala vipåka, accompanied by painful feeling. The two types of dosa-múla-citta (one unprompted and one prompted) and the two types of moha-múla-citta (one accompanied by doubt and one accompanied by restlessness) are not desirable objects and thus they cannot be decisive support- condition of object. The akusala cetasikas which accompany dosa-múla- citta, such as regret, jealousy and stinginess, and those which accompany moha-múla-citta are not desirable either, thus, they cannot be decisive support-condition of object. ------------ 1. The Påli term upa means strong or powerful, and nissaya means dependence or support. ******* Nina #74098 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 8:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 7/7/2007 7:30:11 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Anusaya doesn't seem to refer to actually arisen dhammas, but rather to some sort of potential for their arising and - here is the important part for me - the arising of any dhamma 'held in potential' depends on conditions. This is my own thinking and so dismiss it immediately. Someone who knows ought to correct me and stop this useless speculating. .............................................. NEW TG: I think of it like an "impression." The impression remains and will affect those things that are able to be influenced by it. However, there is structure to the impression. It may be just mental structure. Most of us do call the 4th aggregate -- mental FORMATIONS. ............................................ TG: "Do you regard all modern scientific thought as providing no clues or useful information as to how physical or mental states function and interact?" Scott: I don't think 'modern scientific thought' is comparable to Dhamma. I don't look there at all. It is rife with theories but no Dhamma. I just try to understand Dhamma qua Dhamma. Sorry. ............................... NEW TG: Nothing to be sorry about. I, on the other hand, look for Dhamma in anything and everything. ....................................... NEW TG: "I'm not sure about psychological structures requiring a view of 'entities' associated with it." Scott: From the Oxford dictionary: "structure • noun 1 the arrangement of and relations between the parts of something complex. 2 a building or other object constructed from several parts. 3 the quality of being well organized. • verb give structure to. â€" ORIGIN Latin structura, from struere ‘to build’." And: "entity • noun (pl. entities) a thing with distinct and independent existence. â€" ORIGIN French entité, from Latin ens ‘being’." Scott: This is the old debate, right? I think that to posit a 'structure' is to posit an 'entity'. ............................... NEW TG: I see "structure" as synonymous to "formation." Anything identifiable has "structure" IMO. To view it as "having self" is merely in the "delusional eye" of the "beholder." Such folks will view anything and everything with self view so the distinction of thinking "structure is entity" is meaningless IMO. ........................................ Here we enter the territory of sabhaava - a given dhamma has its characteristic. I think I refer to the verb 'structuring' when I consider anusaya and related effects. NEW TG: "...'The present moment' is not actually something one can encapsulate as a static structure. It is continually flowing ....continually changing. There is a sequence of 'happens,' which actually are happening, but there probably is no such thing as 'a present moment.' There is the present, but nothing 'stops' to be a 'moment.' As it is constantly changing, to think of phenomena as configured in a certain way at any given moment is just hypothetical'conf Scott: Here we grind to a halt since I accept the commentarial explanation that citta arises and falls away completely, serving as condition for the next, and so on. The view above, to me, is permanence, not impermanence. 'Continual change', without making clear a seamless end and beginning of moments, is permanence, in my opinion. ...................................... NEW TG: Yes, we fully disagree. I do not accept the "bubble on/off Dhamma/citta theory." The Suttas make it very clear... Consciousness arises do to conditions. Whatever the conditions do, consciousness will follow accordingly. That being said, as conditions are continuously changing, consciousness will continuously change accordingly. I think the "bubble on/off theory" is just that ... theory of the highest order. One really has to ignore an awful lot of Sutta material to subscribe to that theory IMO. The ceasing of one thing being the cause of the arising of something else is in direct conflict with the principles of Dependent Arising...as laid out in the Suttas: -- This being, that is, etc. ........................................... TG: "As far as "falls away entirely" goes, it seems to follow the Commentarial line of -- each moment things arise and the next moment they altogether cease. This is certainly not the "flavor" that the Suttas project when they speak of impermanence. The Suttas present impermanence as a "gradual change." Not a "digital on/off" type change." Scott: Without the Abhidhamma, one is prone to misunderstand the suttas. as far as I'm concerned. But we just see it differently. ................................................ NEW TG: And vice versa! TG OUT #74099 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 8:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 7/7/2007 8:55:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: It occurs to me that if "moment" is taken to the ultimate, radical point of zero-duration, this dispells the "antagonism" between staccato view and continuous view. As I conceive of matters, "during" a zero-duration moment nothing happens but is in the midst of happening. ............................... NEW TG: Nothing could be occurring. All would be "frozen" or "stopped." ............................... On that occasion, there is knowing of object-content in a variety of ways: mere being conscious of it, feeling it, recognizing it, attending to it, and so on. On every subsequent occasion, either the object-content or some aspect of the knowing of it is different, and thus the prior state of affairs "has ceased". ......................................... NEW TG: None of this could happen in a "frozen" "moment of time." All of these experiences are dynamic processes that occur over a "period of time." (Time is just a measurement for me, not a "thing.") Side Note: This gets close to what I discussed with Sarah of my belief that some Abhidhamma thinker came up the "on/off dhamma/citta" theory because someone believed that nothing could endure through a moment, so they must be fully on and then fully off as each moment passes by. Sarah disagreed with that reasoning, but I still have my suspicions. However, the flaw in that outlook is that Abhidhamma maintains that Rupa last 17 cittas worth. Therefore, Abhidhamma has a new problem of thinking that something persists as a "same thing" through time. Its basically a mess as far as I'm concerned. LOL TG OUT #74100 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 1:23 pm Subject: Natthi Paccayo - To Scott Duncan --- Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Greetings, I like when you drop in. Come more often. S: "How are you?" Scott: I'm well, thanks. House fairly clean, errands half-over.. S: "When TG asked "how could something that doesn't exist affect anything? Magic?", I thought you might have cited a Pa.t.thaana condition 'Natthi paccayo'. As you didn't (perhaps you have your reasons), I briefly dropped by without properly following the thread." Scott: No, not by 'magic' at all. I'd thought of natthi-paccayo, but recalled what TG wrote to Nina regarding absence condition: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73984 TG: "I do not say -- The past never was. Nor do I say that absence means -- there never was. But I do say, the past cannot work on the present. The past is done doing work. The present "outcomes" are now what are doing work. "The interactions of the present are conditioning what will be the future once the present is past in which case that "future" will be present. ;-) "Interesting...you guys want arising and then immediate ceasing, yet want the past to continue to work on the present. Its a wild wacky world you suggest! ;-)" Scott: This seemed a fairly clear statement and I thought it not in the interest of finding some sort of middle ground on which to discuss conditions with TG to push the matter any further. I don't see it as does TG. Were the past not able to work on the present, the whole doctrine of kamma would be without validity, for one thing. I'd be interested to read more of how you see the role and function of natthi-paccayo, were you to return. I hope you are well. Sincerely, Scott. #74101 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 1:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thank you very much for the comments: H: "It occurs to me that if 'moment' is taken to the ultimate, radical point of zero-duration, this dispels the 'antagonism' between staccato view and continuous view. As I conceive of matters, 'during' a zero-duration moment nothing happens but is in the midst of happening. On that occasion, there is knowing of object-content in a variety of ways: mere being conscious of it, feeling it, recognizing it, attending to it, and so on. On every subsequent occasion, either the object-content or some aspect of the knowing of it is different, and thus the prior state of affairs 'has ceased'. As I see it, impermanence of phenomena requires nothing more than that whatever is in effect at the moment will, at some subsequent time, no longer be in effect. This perspective on impermanence is neutral between the contiguous, positive-duration, citta-packet view and a continuous, transformational view, and, in any case, considering 'moments' to have zero duration harmonizes the two perspectives." Scott: I'm sorry to say that I still cannot see this as you do. I've not found the 'zero-duration' theory to be tenable, and don't now, more's the pity. Since I concede that dhammas have sabhaava, this makes it impossible for me to concede to the notion of zero duration. Without meaning to offend, this notion is implausible. Statements like, ". . . 'during' a zero-duration moment nothing happens but is in the midst of happening . . , " are, to me, like statements about how air can be shaped into invisible delicious muffins for smoke-leprechauns to have for tea after they have died. I've decided that the problem for me is a refusal to go beyond the bounds of a certain sort of Theravada orthodoxy (decided upon by what seems correct to me) and bring in certain other philosophical innovations. Sticking entirely with views, I seek to understand only a certain set, I don't try to forge my own theories if I can at all help it, and can't really get into the whole creative neo-commentarial endeavour. These caveats are what makes me such an impossible correspondent, I am sure. My apologies. 'Zero-duration moments' cannot exist, as I see it. They are, I think, entirely conceptual. I'm afraid I just can't follow you into this realm of thinking about things, Howard, and no offense meant - again. It makes no sense to me. Sorry. Sincerely, Scott. #74102 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 11:25 am Subject: Vicikiccha? ksheri3 Good Day Group, I was considering some modes of operations finding that "others" were of the mindset to GENERATE DESIRES within myself and others, basically all they came into contact with. As they performed their act and spoke eloquently concerning their rupas as a sign, a guide, a recognition of their PERMANENCE and RIGHTEOUSNESS, I pondered: which came first: The Known or The Mind that Knows? toodles, colette #74103 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 4:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sammaadi.t.thi studycorner. lbidd2 Hi Nina, N: "We have to accept that we cannot understand all of it. We should not follow our own interpretation." L: Yes, dsg is controversial enough without adding fuel to the fire;-)) Larry #74104 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 4:16 pm Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? philofillet Hi again Jon I rambled on in the previous post. Please allow me to reduce it to the following question and disregard the rest, if you can. (If you can't, that's ok too, of course.) Thanks! > So I'll ask again. Does she recongnize mundane path factors? > Thanks. This will probably help settle my "troubles." Metta, Phil p.s I will add this - is the word "factors" only used with the supramundane? Is "factor" in itself something supra-mundane in Dhamma terms. Thanks again. #74105 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 4:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Jon, J: "In this thread to date we have been using the term 'right view' to refer to right view as a factor of the NEP. For instance, I gave this definition the other day: <> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/74029 This is the context in which right view is usually mentioned in discussions here." L: I think that is a different thread you are talking about. This thread has to do with specific index references to "wrong view" in MN (notice the subject heading). There are only a half dozen or so and they all follow the same format in distinguishing between right path and wrong path. Within the category of right path under the sub-category of right view, there are two kinds of right view, mundane and supramundane. Mundane right view includes both the passage I quoted about mothers and fathers and sacrifices, and, as Nina reminded me, mundane right view also includes the insight knowledges. Mundane right view has quite a range, from simple faith to insight knowledge. I don't see how wrong view could be kusala, so how could kusala citta be wrong view? Larry #74106 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 1:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Natthi Paccayo - To Scott Duncan --- Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/7/2007 2:26:29 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: I don't see it as does TG. Were the past not able to work on the present, the whole doctrine of kamma would be without validity, for one thing. ........................ Hi Scott Its like this... The Buddha's teaching are still affecting us now BECAUSE they have continued down through the present due to memories, books, etc. Kamma is like that. The "force" (impression) of a past act continues through the present to affect the conditions that meet up with it and are able to be affected by it. (How that force is stored is another question.) Surely something that is past and utterly gone cannot not affect something down the road. If so, I think the Buddha's teaching on CONDITIONALITY is proven very wrong. "Absence condition" is conceptual hocus-pocus. The ONLY "absence" is the ABSENCE of understanding how it works. TG #74107 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 6:19 pm Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) philofillet Hi Jon Perhaps I have here the answer to the question I asked in the other thread. > < a moment of consciousness that is accompanied by panna of the level of > satipatthana, i.e. that understands the true nature of a presently > arising dhamma.>> If you could present some textual support for this understanding it would help me to sort out my troubles. It sounds very different from what I've heard from Bhikkhu Bodhi, but I might have misheard (heard what I wanted to hear.) I am quite eager to drop my grievances. Life is so short.... No hurry Thanks! :) Metta, Phil #74108 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 7:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. kenhowardau Hi all, The following snippet of conversation strikes me as very poignant. I can't let it go without comment. ------------------- Nina: > > . . . Where is my ailment, my thoughts while thinking over posts addressed to me? All gone in a moment. If we consider different moments we come closer to the truth. May you consider different moments, Nina. TG: > Hi Nina I'll give "moments" some momentary consideration. Just for you. But it seems to me your ailment isn't gone in a moment. Wish it was. ---------------------- It *is* gone in a moment.(A moment of pain is followed by a moment of no pain.) even though it certainly doesn't seem that way. There is so much to say about this! :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/4/2007 7:59:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > N: Not at all ;-)) > Need some more time, I have lack of time and cannot answer all mails, > because of my (not so serious) ailment, physical therapy, etc. > It is so amazing, because of kamma and vipaaka I meet so many > different people here with different ideas, interpretations of > dhamma, inclinations. But where are the people? #74109 From: connie Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 7:54 pm Subject: Re: Vicikiccha? nichiconn dear colette, in answer to: ... which came first: The Known or The Mind that Knows? ... from the Questions of King Milinda: << 7. The king said: 'Does thought-perception arise wherever sight arises?' 'Yes, O king, where the one is there is the other.' 'And which of the two arises first?' 'First sight, then thought.' 'Then does the sight issue, as it were, a command to thought, saying: "Do you spring up there where I have? or does thought issue command to sight, saying: Where you spring up there will I."' 'It is not so, great king. There is no intercourse between the one and the other.' 'Then how is it, Sir, that thought arises wherever sight does?' 'Because of there being a sloping down, and because of there being a door, and because of there being a habit, and because of there being an association.' >> sacred-texts/www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3506.htm my favorite part of this page is from section 3: ...'Formerly, O king, everything in every form, everything in every mode, was ignorance. It is to us as if it were not. In reference to that the ultimate beginning is unknown. But that, which has not been, becomes; as soon as it has begun to become it dissolves away again. In reference to that the ultimate beginning is known.' 'But, reverend Sir, if that which was not, becomes, and as soon as it has begun to become passes again away, then surely, being thus cut off at both ends, it must be entirely destroyed?' 'Nay, surely, O king, if it be thus cut off at both ends, can it not at both ends be made to grow again?' 'Yes, it might. But that is not my question. Could it grow again from the point at which it was cut off?' peace, connie #74110 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 8:51 pm Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > >> Maybe this is the gist of my discontent with AS. Am I right in > suspecting that you folks only recognize the supra-mundane path > factor as a path factor? If so, it certainly isn't surprising why we > just aren't on the same page - I am not a supra-mundane path factor > kind of guy. > Dear Phil http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25348 > N: Path, magga, can refer to several things, it is difficult and we have to look at the context. The eightfold Path that is to be developed: the pathfactors which are cetasikas are to be developed together, panna taking the lead. Then the path is still mundane, pre-awakening as Suan would say. The mundane Path can be fivefold or sixfold, depending on whether one of the three factors that are sila arise or not. (See Dhamma Issue) Robert #74111 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 9:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Natthi Paccayo - To Scott Duncan --- Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: TG: "Its like this... The Buddha's teaching are still affecting us now BECAUSE they have continued down through the present due to memories, books, etc..." Scott: The above would be a simile, I think. TG: "...Kamma is like that. The "force" (impression) of a past act continues through the present to affect the conditions that meet up with it and are able to be affected by it. (How that force is stored is another question.)" Scott: Isn't this saying what I'm saying? This is how the past has impact on the present. It still seems to me, no one really, that similes aren't well used - this is a rather tenuous explanation of a rather concrete simile. I don't see them as matching up, really. The Buddha's teachings are affecting us because of accumulations which condition an appreciation of the Dhamma. TG: "Surely something that is past and utterly gone cannot not affect something down the road..." Scott: Its like this: You walk into the Franz Kafka Movie Theatre in the Twilight Zone. Its a must see film. Every single seat is occupied. You are told by the Usher to stand in the atrium, just outside the door to the theatre, and wait because you are not allowed see the film unless you are seated. You stand through showing after showing. Finally, someone gets up and leaves, opening the door and walking past you. Now, there is an empty seat. The Usher gestures for you to enter. You go in and sit down. Now you watch the film. You were able to do this only because the previous occupant left the seat. A question: Are things 'continuous' or 'contiguous'? Sincerely, Scott. #74112 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 9:29 pm Subject: e-card from Bangkok 6 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Our last discussion session ywas est. afternoon with A.Sujin and also with Sukin, Azita, Ivan/Matt, Num and a few other regulars. A heavy downpour yest. gave me the opportunity to give my last summary. ***** - On Nyantiloka's entry on khandhas as quoted before by Herman (#70484). An 'abstract classification....'? The understanding of khandha is that any particular reality in a group is not the same as another. It has to be different from one reality/khandha to another at the moment of arising. The classification is to have more understanding of these realites. Not abstract, but each dhamma is khandha. That's why we have the details about 'far and near, gross and subtle etc...' Other groups show different aspects to help us see realities as not self. (near -not as difficult to know by panna). - Ayatanas, again to show realities as not self. The meeting. - Elements, the dhatu of not self. Dosa is an element, not self. - Vikara rupas such as lightness (lahuta), malleability (muduta) and wieldiness (kammannata sp?) as asabhava. Hardness which has and hardness which doesn't have these 3 vikara rupas. Rupas in the body conditioned by citta, utu (temperature) and ahara (nutriment) in the body can have vikara. Not those conditioned by kamma. The simile of gold was used. When it's heated, it's malleable. - Tusita, teaching his mother the Abhidhamma? All sense experiences in the deva realms, so why not? - One-facultied devatas in the Vinaya? Impossible. Devas, like humans have 6 senses. Must mean thr' the one faculty of body-sense. - 'internally contemplating breathing in his own body, externally contemplating breathing in the body of another.....' Prompted by his breathing, understanding of any dhamma. Breathing is a concept. When not understanding, must be idea of self. - Detachment from the beginning means detachment from wrong view. Lobha doesn't let go of wrong view that 'I can do something'. - Dukkha, that which appears. - Pakatupanissaya paccaya in the texts? One citta at a time! All kusala and akusala, pakatupanissaya for kamma. Last javanas conditioned by kamma which conditioned pakatupanissaya which conditioned the javanas. -Sukkha and dukkha referrring to feelings with vipaka citta of body-consciousness only. - The 3 cariyas 'behaviours' again. Vinnana cariya, the first one, refers to all ahetuka cittas inc. vipaka. (maybe a mistake the other day...) - A cula sotapanna may deviate from the 8fold path to a limited degree only. Death is only a conventional moment. Insight can continue. No more woeful planes. Even though it's 'tender insight', cannot seriously deviate. - Concentration bhojjanga as in SN46, Bhojjanga Samyutta (#61875). 2 conditions given for it: a) sign of calm, serenity -samatha b) sign of non-distraction, non-dispersal. Comy adds 10 more factors. Refers to panna with that degree of concentration. With the development of panna, calm can appear (at vipassana nanas)and becomes clearer. With wisdom, concentration becomes more prominent. Faculty of concentration develops. Otherwise we'll think we must have a different samadhi. One of the factors given was 'avoiding unconcentrated people...'. It's the nature of satipatthana to know who's who! Whatever conditions given, includes all. - Jhana, very natural, no wish, no desire! Mastery depends on degree of skill, depends on whether jhana arises or not. Even a small wish hinders. - (Connie)Paccevekatha as in Sisters (#73206) - its ordinary meaning of just 'consider'. Ordinary words were given special meanings as in 'paccavekhana cittas'. - Sound from the tape-recorder - conditioned by temperature only! - (Rob k & Herman) Good news! We can't say all or most wrong view such as sakkaya ditthi leads to hell realms as Ledi Sayadaw suggests! There are many devas with wrong view! Only certain deeds... Most wrong view is not akusala kamma patha! Sakkaya ditthi is not. LS as quoted by Rob (?, 25th April) 'Although the beings with sakkaya-ditthi are bound for hell....'!! That would mean all those who are not ariyans must be born in hell! Just akusala sila again. People today know little about silla. The Vinaya is referring to kusala and akusala sila. - 3 kinds of dukkha referring to feelings. a) dukkha dukkha or unpleasant feeling, b) viparinama or pleasant feeling. The last, sankhara dukkha, referring to neutral feeling and all other sankhara dhammas is wider. Ledi Sayadaw's comment is not right (#71023)referring to 'viparinama at the end which is passing away'....'. Also, we need to remember that there cannot be akusala kamma without pakatupanissaya paccaya supporting it....all those accumulations.... - The arising of sati as natural as lobha is now. - 4 right efforts. Sv refers to the kusala that's arisen as samatha and vipassana (all kusala) and that which hasn't arisen as vipassana and the path. Only this matters. - (Connie, Sisters #67941)'the development of insight through this mental concentration'. The concentration is there already like now. More prominent with panna until it appears.....'This means by the inclusion of right concentration, which is a characteristic of the path, the constituents of the path such as right view, etc....are included.' We shouldn't forget the common meanings of terms used at the time! - Killing, intention, stories in the news...and more long stories! Always back to realities now! - Rt view, 2-fold, M117....Jon will have to elaborate as I missed it! - (Nina), a little on all those complicated present, past, navatabba objects of dying consciousness, birth consciousness etc. The main point to stress is just that the following birth (and bhavanga and cuti cittas)have the 'same' object as the last javana cittas, no matter what it's called. *********** These notes have been cryptic and I know they will only make sense to a few people who regularly read most the posts here. We'll be leaving Bkk very soon and I'll be happy to elaborate on any of the points to the best of my limited understanding! Many thanks to all the other attendees at the discussions for making them so enjoyable and worthwhile for us! Metta, Sarah ====== #74113 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 9:33 pm Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > >> Maybe this is the gist of my discontent with AS. Am I right in > > suspecting that you folks only recognize the supra-mundane path > > factor as a path factor? If so, it certainly isn't surprising why we > > just aren't on the same page - I am not a supra-mundane path factor > > kind of guy. > > > Dear Phil This is also explained in books by Nina and Khun Sujin. Eg Dhamma and Cambodia http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html ..But Sawong: Someone has a question about right understanding, sammaditthi. He asks whether sammaditthi arises when someone practises satipatthana in daily life. Can he at such a moment consider rœpa dhamma and nama dhamma? Or are there other dhammas arising together with samma ditthi(right understanding) that he can consider? Sujin: There are eight Path factors, but usually five factors count, because the three factors which are the abstinences (virati cetasikas) cannot arise together with the citta which is not supramundane citta, lokuttara citta 4 . These five Path factors are: right understanding (samma ditthi), right thinking (sammŒ-sankappa), right effort (samma-vayama), right mindfulness (samma-sati) and right concentration (samma sammadhi)......>>> Robert #74114 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 9:53 pm Subject: Re: e-card from Bangkok 6 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > - (Rob k & Herman) Good news! We can't say all or most wrong view such as > sakkaya ditthi leads to hell realms as Ledi Sayadaw suggests! There are > many devas with wrong view! Only certain deeds... Most wrong view is not > akusala kamma patha! Sakkaya ditthi is not. LS as quoted by Rob (?, 25th > April) 'Although the beings with sakkaya-ditthi are bound for hell....'!! > That would mean all those who are not ariyans must be born in hell! > Just akusala sila again. People today know little about silla. The Vinaya > is referring to kusala and akusala sila. > +++++++++ Dear Sarah Your good news is something that has been discussed before and I have not seen anywhere on the list where there was any doubt about it. You seem to have misunderstood the exchnage. Of course sakkkya ditthi alone cannot directly result in going to hell.If you study the article by Ledi Sayadaw it is clear that he meant those with sakkya Ditthi will tend towards hell mainly by remaining in samsara where commiting wrong deeds is inevitable. The whole context of the posts with Howard and Herman was about extreme wrong views that deny rebirth or kamma- And that type of wrong view has such eower as to almost certainly result in hell or animal birth. Robert T #74115 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 10:17 pm Subject: Re: A Siila Perspective corvus121 Hi KenH --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > This Bhikkhu explains things differently from any way we are used to > at DSG. Do you want a poem? ;-)) > He talks about 'good actions inspired by selfishness,' and I think > such things are possible provided we are talking about two or more > different mind moments. But is that what he is talking about? Do you remember all those posts on DSG about the sorrow we experience when someone close to us dies and how (to be brutally honest) most of it is ego-centred "poor me"? I think that, in the same way, the Bhikkhu is being brutally honest about "our good actions". You really shouldn't be any more confused than you have been on lots of other threads here. :-{ > Another of the many things that need further explanation is, "Love > which is limited is hatred, because it is exclusive." It is > attachment, surely, not hatred. What is he on about? > > And then there is: "It is the not-understanding of the real value of > things which makes man crave and cling to that which leads to harm." > > Fair enough: but when he says 'things' here is he referring to > paramattha dhammas, or pannatti? This bhikkhu was a westerner (Dutch) and a former Jesuit priest who was well versed in western philosophy. It seems to me that he writes in that style or tradition and the style of his era - which makes things interesting for some and not for others. As to his "things" - paramattha or pannatti? He knew Pali and was well versed in Abhidhamma. But I suspect that his lectures were full of pannatti "things" as much as the suttas are, with the reminder that they are not ultimately real. Could we expect otherwise? Do you have the style of writing of some other author in mind as an example that satisfies your exacting standards? More information please, Ken! Dhammapala didn't shy away from the implications of anatta in the way that pop Buddhism does today. But I can't claim to be an expert on him as I only have a few of his many writings. As the title said, it's just another perspective that may interest some. Best wishes Andrew #74116 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 10:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Bangkok 6 sarahprocter... Hi Rob K, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Sarah > Your good news is something that has been discussed before and I > have not seen anywhere on the list where there was any doubt about > it. You seem to have misunderstood the exchnage. ... S: I was just referring to the quotes you gave in this message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/71069 It's true that I haven't read LS's entire article. Thx for your clarifications. Metta, Sarah ======== #74117 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jul 7, 2007 10:46 pm Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Phil Thanks for the messages raising your queries. A brief reply at this stage as we check out of our hotel in Bangkok for the trip back to Hong Kong, to supplement RobK's reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Jon > > Perhaps I have here the answer to the question I asked in the other > thread. > > > < to > > a moment of consciousness that is accompanied by panna of the level of > > satipatthana, i.e. that understands the true nature of a presently > > arising dhamma.>> The mundane path is that which leads to the supramundane path. Thus, the development of satipatthana (awareness accompanied by wisdom). > If you could present some textual support for this understanding it > would help me to sort out my troubles. It sounds very different from > what I've heard from Bhikkhu Bodhi, but I might have misheard (heard > what I wanted to hear.) I am quite eager to drop my grievances. Life is > so short.... ;-)) The primary textual support is the Satipatthana Sutta and its commentary. But there is much more, also. We can discuss further when I'm back in HK. Jon #74118 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. nilovg Hi TG, Op 4-jul-2007, om 13:59 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > I honestly believe that you make "entities" (mentally) > when you give such lofty status to these mere "afflicting > conditions" by > calling them "Dhammas" that are "ultimate realities with their own > characteristics." There's simply no need to do so. > > At the very least, this "builds them up" and substantiates them, > when what > they really need is to be "knocked down"; i.e., detached from. ----------- N: I still have an old post of you unanswered. it all boils down to paramattha dhammas each with their own characteristic. But we can find each other by elements. Elements are devoid of self. Nama elements and rupa elements, in the suttas. I was going to write to Howard about the five khandhas, which are the same as paramattha dhammas. You may wonder, where is all this in the Suttas. As I wrote before: the Abhidhamma classifies fully what is in brief in the Suttas. I want to add an old post by Sarah (taken from Rob's study forum) about sabhava dhammas, I believe directed to you some time ago. Let me give you first a few examples from daily life. You are concerned that by the notion of paramattha dhammas there is a wrong idea about realities, which become (according to you) entities, substances which exist. The opposite is true. Sarah often explains in a simple way that there are stories, wholes we cling to, and paramattha dhammas. A story: I have a lot of pain in my leg when walking. Paramattha dhammas: there are mere dhammas, such as vipaakacittas produced by kamma and akusala cittas with dosa which think about my pain. They all fall away immediately, they are not self. Smiling when at a funeral. I admit, very hard when it would be Lodewijk's funeral. A situation versus nama elements and rupa elements that arise and fall away immediately. It is a hard practice, and very slowly there will be more understanding of elements. But it is the way! That is why I look at Scott, who took it all so exemplarily. I can learn from him. There is sorrow, only nama, non-self. There is seeing, nama, non- self. When we learn to see events as nama and rupa it means also that we learn to see them as non-self. Someone shouts at me. An event, a story. There is no he and me. I am inclined to think in that way and that is conceit. Conceit is a nama, non-self. Hearing is a nama, non-self. Sound is a rupa, non-self. The whole world is broken down into elements that do not last for a moment. Where are the entities, where is substantialism? Now Sarah's post: -------- Sarah: The majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the following to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39. It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas." The tika(subcommentary ) notes, "although there are no dhammas devoid of their own characteristics this is said for the purpose of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such entities as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be discovered as ultimately real actualities, these dhammas (ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these dhammas are discovered as actually real actualties. And although there IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding, the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known , acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas" S: It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence etc. this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the change of dhamma ********** Questioner: Is there any example anywhere of the sabhava for any dhamma? To be consistent, sabhava (leaving nibbana aside) has to be causal/conditioned, then how can it be a dhamma's own-being? Or is it that sabhava = the causal/conditioned nature...which would be like saying that sabhava is sunyata...which is where my questions probably started from... .......... S: In the Vism quote above it mentions the nature (sabhava) of hardness. As I understand (just from my own considering now), the nature of hardness when touched now is quite different to the nature of heat or cold. Furthermore the sabhava of the hardness experienced at this moment of touching is very different again from the sabhava of hardness experienced a moment later. Each reality has its own sabhava even though they have common characteristics (lakkhana) such as the tri-lakkhana which themselves are asabhava (without sabhava). If these realities had no sabhava and no lakkhana, they would not arise, fall away and be inherently unsatisfactory. Anatta (sunyata) is one of the lakkhana of all realities. We don’t talk about the conditioned nature of anatta, lakkhana or sabhava because they are always the characteristics and nature of the paramattha dhammas. sarah (end quote) Nina. #74119 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:16 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 7, no 2. decisive support-condition nilovg Dear friends, Kusala such as dåna or síla which one performed can be object predominance-condition for kusala citta which esteems and gives preponderance to the wholesome deed one performed. The wholesome deed can at the same time also be decisive support-condition of object, it can be a powerful inducement, a cogent reason, for the arising again and again of kusala citta which sees the benefit of kusala. Kusala which one performed can condition attachment or wrong view, as we have seen, by way of object predominance-condition, and it can also condition attachment and wrong view by way of decisive support- condition of object. It is then a powerful inducement for the arising of attachment and wrong view. Attachment can be object predominance-condition and also decisive support-condition of object, a powerful inducement for the arising of attachment again and again in the case of all those who have not eradicated attachment. Akusala cannot be object predominance-condition nor decisive support- condition of object for kusala citta, since kusala citta cannot consider akusala with esteem and high regard. Desirable rúpas which are object predominance-condition can also be decisive support-condition of object for lobha-múla-citta. Beautiful colours or delicious flavours are a powerful inducement for the arising of lobha-múla-citta which wants such objects again and again. As soon as delicious food is on the tongue its flavour is irresistable for attachment. Someone may highly regard the sound of music which is then object predominance-condition for lobha-múla- citta. The sound of music can also be a decisive support-condition of object, a powerful inducement for the arising again and again of lobha-múla-citta, for example, when someone dedicates his whole life to music. The rúpas which are the five sense-bases, the heart-base and the sense objects can be decisive support-condition of object for lobha- múla-citta but, just as in the case of object predominance-condition, they cannot be decisive support-condition of object for kusala citta [1]. Only the rúpas which each have their own distinctive nature and are produced by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition, can be, just as in the case of object predominance- condition, decisive support-condition of object for lobha-múla-citta[2]. ------------- 1. See Ch 3. Kusala citta does not give preponderance, for example, to a pleasant sense object, it is inclined to give it away. Thus, it is not strongly dependent on that rúpa as object. 2. These are sabhåva rúpas (see Ch 3), such as the four great Elements, the sense objects and the sense organs. Asabhåva rúpas, rúpas which do not have their own distinct nature, cannot be decisive support-condition. ******* NIna. #74120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:28 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 5, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The objects of paññå are all the objects appearing at this moment in our daily life: they may be pleasant or unpleasant, kusala or akusala. We read about the objects of vipassanå in the “Path of Discrimination”, the “Patisambhidåmagga”. We read in the First or Great Division, I, Treatise on Knowledge, Ch XV, Defining Internally, that one “defines” or develops understanding of the internal realities and these are the internal åyatanas. We read: How is it that understanding of defining internally is knowledge of difference in the physical bases? How does he define dhammas internally? He defines the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind internally. When paññå is developed in vipassanå one does not confuse the different doorways with each other, there is only one reality appearing at a time through one doorway. We read that he considers the conditions for the arising of the bases, namely ignorance and craving. He considers the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå. In the course of the development of paññå clinging to the bases is abandoned. The Commentary, the Saddhammapakåsiní, states that the eye does not exist before its arising, that it is there after its arising, that after its falling away it will not return. The commentary states that it is not stable, that it cannot last, that it is unsure and insignificant (viparinåma). It is subject to change because of decay and death. When we consider the impermanence of realities we think of different terms which describe impermanence, but when paññå of vipassanå arises it can penetrate immediately the nature of impermanence. ******* Nina. #74121 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 2:42 am Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? philofillet Hi Robert Thanks for this.To be honest I don't really understand, but I will try to stay open to these deep teachings. > Sujin: There are eight Path > factors, but usually five factors count, because the three > factors which are > the abstinences (virati cetasikas) cannot arise together with > the citta > which is not supramundane citta, lokuttara citta 4 . I guess this is a different topic, but does this mean that virati cetasikas only arise with lokuttara citta? And if so do this mean abstinence which is kusala only occurs with lokuttara citta? I find abstinence is not easy but brings great confidence in the Buddha's teaching, so I celebrate abstinence. It certainly isn't lokuttara citta, but I still celebrate it. Yay for mundane abstinence! We wouldn't get anywhere without it because we would constantly be at the beck and call of our worst tendencies if we didn't develop a counter-tendency to resist them, I think. And yet according to abhidhamma this counter-tendency is not kusala? That's ok if it isn't. I will still celebrate it. Thanks again Robert. Metta, Phil These five > Path > factors are: right understanding (samma ditthi), right thinking > (samm?Esankappa), right effort (samma-vayama), right mindfulness > (samma-sati) > and right concentration (samma sammadhi)......>>> > > Robert > #74122 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 2:51 am Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) philofillet Hi Jon Thanks for your speedy reply. > The mundane path is that which leads to the supramundane path. Thus, > the development of satipatthana (awareness accompanied by wisdom). OK. I guess I am feeling that the approach to satipatthana that is suitable for busy worldlings is not quite so deep that it sees into dhammas. I quote this from Soma Thera's introduction to his translation of the satipatthana sutta. (Which you and Sarah were kind enough to send to me - thanks again!) "The Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness deals with the preparatory part, the Mundane Way of Mindfulness which is of immediate practical value to worldlings still in the valleys of the spirit far from the supramundane peaks." I don't feel the "immediate practical value" in the deep teachings you favour, whereas I do find it and do experience it in less deep approaches. However, the truth is the truth and rather than looking at a vague note by the translator in the introduction, the main thing is the commentary itself. > > > If you could present some textual support for this understanding > it > > would help me to sort out my troubles.> > ;-)) The primary textual support is the Satipatthana Sutta and its > commentary. But there is much more, also. We can discuss further > when I'm back in HK. Thanks. We'll see where I'm at when we get back from Canada. (Going next week.) Today I feel amiable and open to patient discussion. That won't last for long, probably. But who knows! Metta, Phil #74123 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:10 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (62) nichiconn dear friends, 9. Navakanipaato 1. Va.d.dhamaatutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 2 On verse: 204. "Maa su te va.d.dha lokamhi, vanatho ahu kudaacana.m; maa puttaka punappuna.m, ahu dukkhassa bhaagimaa. 204. May you not have, Va.d.dha, craving for the world at any time. Child, do not share in pain again and again. txt: Tattha maa su te va.d.dha lokamhi, vanatho ahu kudaacananti suuti nipaatamatta.m. Va.d.dha, puttaka, sabbasmimpi sattaloke, sa"nkhaaraloke ca kilesavanatho tuyha.m kadaacipi maa ahu maa ahosi Tattha kaara.namaaha- "maa, puttaka, punappuna.m, ahu dukkhassa bhaagimaa"ti vanatha.m anucchindanto ta.m nimittassa punappuna.m aparaapara.m jaati-aadidukkhassa bhaagii maa ahosi. Pruitt: 204. There, in may you not have, Va.d.dha, (maa su te Va.d.dha) craving (vanatho) for the world at any time, su [not translated] is only a particle. Va.d.dha, my child, may you not have (maa ahu = maa ahosi) at any time craving for the defilements, (kilesa-vanatho)* of every world of beings and world of formations. Then she explains the cause of this: child, do not share (maa ... ahu ... bhaagimaa) in pain (dukkhassa) again and again, which means: after cutting off craving, as a result of that, do not be one who shares in (bhaagii maa ahosi) the pain of birth, etc. (jaati-aadi-dukkhassa), again and again, over and over. *See EV I, p.183 ad v. 338, for a discussion of vanatho. On verse: 205. "Sukha~nhi va.d.dha munayo, anejaa chinnasa.msayaa; siitibhuutaa damappattaa, viharanti anaasavaa. 205. The sages dwell happily indeed, Va.d.dha, free from lust, with doubts cast off, become cool, having attined self-taming, being without taints. txt: Eva.m vanathassa asamucchede aadiinava.m dassetvaa idaani samucchede aanisa.msa.m dassentii "sukha~nhi va.d.dhaa"ti-aadimaaha. Tassattho- puttaka, va.d.dha moneyyadhammasamannaagatena munayo, ejaasa"nkhaataaya ta.nhaaya abhaavena anejaa, dassanamaggeneva pahiinavicikicchataaya chinnasa.msayaa, sabbakilesapari.laahaabhaavena siitibhuutaa, uttamassa damathassa adhigatattaa damappattaa anaasavaa khii.naasavaa sukha.m viharanti, na tesa.m etarahi cetodukkha.m atthi, aayati.m pana sabbampi dukkha.m na bhavissateva. Pruitt: 205. Showing in this way the danger of not cutting off craving, she now shows the advantage of cutting it off, saying, [the sages dwell] happily indeed, Va.d.dha, etc. This is the meaning: Va.d.dha, they are sages (munayo) through being possessed of the qualities of the state of being a sage (moneyya-dhamma-samannaagamenta). They are free from lust (anejaa) through the absence of the craving (ta.nhaaya) that is called lust (ejaa-sa"nkhaataaya).* They are with doubts cut off because of the fact they have eliminated uncertainty through the vision of the path. Become cool through the absence of the burning fever of all the defilements. Having attained self-taming (damappattaa) because of the fact they have reached the highest restraint (damathassa). Being without taints (anaasavaa) they live happily with taints annihilated (khii.naasavaa). There is no mental pain for them in the present, and all pain will be inexistent [for them] in the future. *For a comparison with other commentaries on anejaa, see EV II, p. 98. ===tbc, connie #74124 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:13 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 48. "Saying, 'Good, friend,' the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Saariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma?' - 'There might be, friends. Saadhaavusoti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m uttari.m pa~nha.m aapucchu.m: " siyaa panaavuso a~n~nopi pariyaayo yathaa ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato' aagato ima.m saddhammanti?" 49. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the sixfold base, the origin of the sixfold base, the cessation of the sixfold base, and the way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base, in that way he is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma. Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako sa.laayatana~nca pajaanaati, sa.laayatanasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, sa.laayatananirodha~nca pajaanaati, sa.laayatananirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. 50. "And what is the sixfold base, what is the origin of the sixfold base, what is the cessation of the sixfold base, what is the way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base? There are these six bases: the eye-base, the ear-base, the nose-base, the tongue-base, the body-base, the mind-base. With the arising of mentality-materiality there is the arising of the sixfold base. With the cessation of mentality-materiality there is the cessation of the sixfold base. The way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view...right concentration. Katama.m panaavuso sa.laayatana.m? Katamo sa.laayatanasamudayo? Katamo sa.laayatananirodho? Katamaa sa.laayatananirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa?Ti. Chayimaani aavuso aayatanaani: cakkhaayatana.m, sotaayatana.m, ghaanaayatana.m, jivhaayatana.m, kaayaayatana.m, manaayatana.m. Naamaruupasamudayaa sa.laayatanasamudayo. Naamaruupanirodhà sa.laayatananirodho. Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo sa.laayatananirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa seyyathiida.m: sammaadi.t.thi sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo sammaa vaayaamo, sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi. 51. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the sixfold base, the origin of the sixfold base, the cessation of the sixfold base, and the way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base...he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m sa.laayatana.m pajaanaati, eva.m sa.laayatanasamudaya.m pajaanaati, eva.m sa.laayatananirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m sa.laayatananirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa.tighaanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja,m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassanta"nkaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di,t,thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Sincerely, Scott. #74125 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:31 am Subject: Hmmmm.... onco111 Deitrich Bonhoeffer wrote: "At the end of a life spent in the pursuit of knowledge Faust has to confess: 'I now do see that we can nothing know.' That is the answer to a sum; it is the outcome of a long experience. But as Kierkegaard observed, it is quite a different thing when a freshman comes up to the university and uses the same sentiment to justify his indolence. As the answer to a sum it is perfectly true, but as the initial data it is a piece of self-deception." Is the KS and DSG skepticism toward meditation, goals, directed training, etc. a similar answer to a sum? The answer only makes sense after a long and arduous road of effort to determine for oneself through practice which Efforts are Right and which are Wrong. Dan #74126 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 7/7/07 3:55:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > In a message dated 7/7/2007 8:55:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > It occurs to me that if "moment" is taken to the ultimate, radical point of > > zero-duration, this dispells the "antagonism" between staccato view and > continuous view. > As I conceive of matters, "during" a zero-duration moment nothing happens > but is in the > midst of happening. > ............................... > > NEW TG: Nothing could be occurring. All would be "frozen" or "stopped." > > ............................... ----------------------------------------- Howard: That's basically what I said. My words were << 'during' a zero-duration moment nothing happens but is in the midst of happening. >> --------------------------------------- > > > > On that occasion, there is knowing of object-content in a variety of ways: > > mere being conscious of it, feeling it, recognizing it, attending to it, > and > so on. On every > subsequent occasion, either the object-content or some aspect of the > knowing > of it is > different, and thus the prior state of affairs "has ceased". > ......................................... > > NEW TG: None of this could happen in a "frozen" "moment of time." All of > these experiences are dynamic processes that occur over a "period of time." > > (Time is just a measurement for me, not a "thing.") ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear on whether you think you are disagreeing with me or not. To me, we seem to be agreeing. I'm saying that it makes sense to say that at any point in time there is mental content, the so called object, and a variety of mental operations in force, and that the aggregate of those operations constitutes the current mindstate, the state of mind at that time. All those operations are, at that time, *in process*, but a positive elapsing of time is required for their execution - nothing happens in zero time. My primary point is that the notion of "mindstate" (citta plus cetasikas) is both meaningful and compatible with "continuous change" provided that it is not thought of as a packet of namas beginning at time A and ending at time B, but as the aggregate of namic operations *in the midst of execution* at a time. Note that points in time are *not* discrete successors like the integers (1, 2, 3, ...). Rather, between any two points in time there are infinitely many others. There is no immediate-successor relation between points in time, though there are between conventional events. --------------------------------------------- > > Side Note: This gets close to what I discussed with Sarah of my belief > that > some Abhidhamma thinker came up the "on/off dhamma/citta" theory because > someone believed that nothing could endure through a moment, so they must > be > fully on and then fully off as each moment passes by. Sarah disagreed with > that > reasoning, but I still have my suspicions. > > However, the flaw in that outlook is that Abhidhamma maintains that Rupa > last 17 cittas worth. Therefore, Abhidhamma has a new problem of thinking > that > something persists as a "same thing" through time. Its basically a mess as > > far as I'm concerned. LOL -------------------------------------- Howard: As far as I'm concerned, rupas change during the period of their existence, probably in various ways but certainly in terms of "intensity" (the stages of arising, stasis, and decline), and namas change in an even more complex fashion in order to function, which makes the view of them as irreducible entities (and not conventional objects) an incorrect perspective. Reality, per se, as I've said before, lies beyond our conceptual, verbal, "communicational" attempts, and those attempts are at best "pointings to" of varying satisfactoriness. The Buddha's "pointing to" that is the tilakkhana is, for me, the most satisfactory. ----------------------------------------- > > TG OUT > > ............................................ > > > As I see it, impermanence of phenomena requires nothing more than that > whatever is in > effect at the moment will, at some subsequent time, no longer be in effect. > > This perspective on > impermanence is neutral between the contiguous, positive-duration, > citta-packet view and a > continuous, transformational view, and, in any case, considering "moments" > to have zero duration > harmonizes the two perspectives. > > With metta, > Howard > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74127 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/7/07 4:50:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thank you very much for the comments: > > H: "It occurs to me that if 'moment' is taken to the ultimate, radical > point of zero-duration, this dispels the 'antagonism' between staccato > view and continuous view. As I conceive of matters, 'during' a > zero-duration moment nothing happens but is in the midst of happening. > On that occasion, there is knowing of object-content in a variety of > ways: mere being conscious of it, feeling it, recognizing it, > attending to it, and so on. On every subsequent occasion, either the > object-content or some aspect of the knowing of it is different, and > thus the prior state of affairs 'has ceased'. As I see it, > impermanence of phenomena requires nothing more than that whatever is > in effect at the moment will, at some subsequent time, no longer be in > effect. This perspective on impermanence is neutral between the > contiguous, positive-duration, citta-packet view and a continuous, > transformational view, and, in any case, considering 'moments' to have > zero duration harmonizes the two perspectives." > > Scott: I'm sorry to say that I still cannot see this as you do. I've > not found the 'zero-duration' theory to be tenable, and don't now, > more's the pity. Since I concede that dhammas have sabhaava, this > makes it impossible for me to concede to the notion of zero duration. > Without meaning to offend, this notion is implausible. Statements like, > > ". . . 'during' a zero-duration moment nothing happens but is in the > midst of happening . . , " > > are, to me, like statements about how air can be shaped into invisible > delicious muffins for smoke-leprechauns to have for tea after they > have died. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm sorry you cannot conceive of this. For me it is clear, and clearly the way things are. ------------------------------------------ > > I've decided that the problem for me is a refusal to go beyond the > bounds of a certain sort of Theravada orthodoxy (decided upon by what > seems correct to me) and bring in certain other philosophical > innovations. Sticking entirely with views, I seek to understand only > a certain set, I don't try to forge my own theories if I can at all > help it, and can't really get into the whole creative neo-commentarial > endeavour. These caveats are what makes me such an impossible > correspondent, I am sure. My apologies. ------------------------------------------- Howard: You view things as you view them. We both do. ------------------------------------------- > > 'Zero-duration moments' cannot exist, as I see it. They are, I think, > entirely conceptual. I'm afraid I just can't follow you into this > realm of thinking about things, Howard, and no offense meant - again. > It makes no sense to me. Sorry. --------------------------------------------- Howard: What do you consider the arising point and cessation point of a citta to be if not zero-duration moments? :-) All our talk is entirely conceptual, Scott. That's one of the important things for us to grasp, I believe. -------------------------------------------- > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74128 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 9:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for your reply: Howard: "...What do you consider the arising point and cessation point of a citta to be if not zero-duration moments? :-) All our talk is entirely conceptual, Scott. That's one of the important things for us to grasp, I believe." Scott: While it is totally and entirely obvious to any discussant, and therefore no stretch for one to grasp, that thinking and talking about things is 'entirely conceptual', there is also a reality to certain things. I don't wish to belabour the point, since I simply don't think that the Theory of Zero-duration Moments holds any water. I don't call arising and cessation 'zero-duration moments.' Arising is arising and cessation is cessation. The important thing for all to consider is that there is something which arises and ceases. If a view is essentially insubstantialist then of course conceptual air-castles can be built. When one considers that there is a reality to that which arises and then falls away - that is this thing exists irreducibly with its own nature - this reality subjects insubstantialist arguments to limitations which, for all intents and purposes, causes them to evaporate. I've not read you to have conceded that dhammas have their own nature, and so I don't know exactly what, within the Theory of Zero-duration Moments, is considered to arise and to fall away. Don't forget, Howard: oil and water... Sincerely, Scott. #74129 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 7/8/2007 9:50:10 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG - In a message dated 7/7/07 3:55:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: > Hi Howard > > In a message dated 7/7/2007 8:55:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > _upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...) writes: > > It occurs to me that if "moment" is taken to the ultimate, radical point of > > zero-duration, this dispells the "antagonism" between staccato view and > continuous view. > As I conceive of matters, "during" a zero-duration moment nothing happens > but is in the > midst of happening. > ............ .... .... > > NEW TG: Nothing could be occurring. All would be "frozen" or "stopped." > > ............ .... .... ----------------------------------------- Howard: That's basically what I said. My words were << 'during' a zero-duration moment nothing happens but is in the midst of happening. ---------------------------------------- > > > > On that occasion, there is knowing of object-content in a variety of ways: > > mere being conscious of it, feeling it, recognizing it, attending to it, > and > so on. On every > subsequent occasion, either the object-content or some aspect of the > knowing > of it is > different, and thus the prior state of affairs "has ceased". > ............ .... .... .... > > NEW TG: None of this could happen in a "frozen" "moment of time." All of > these experiences are dynamic processes that occur over a "period of time." > > (Time is just a measurement for me, not a "thing.") ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not clear on whether you think you are disagreeing with me or not. ................................... NEW TG: I was just clarifying my position. It appears to me also we are in agreement but just expressing it a little differently. I think my explanation involved a complete "frozen" whereby nothing would be happening. I think yours dealt with a "point of time" whereby the "flow of time" was still in operation. Therefore, for you, phenomena were still "in process." Of course my scenario was impossible ... unless it indicates what Nibbana is like...but I'm not claiming that either...too chicken! LOL ....................................... To me, we seem to be agreeing. I'm saying that it makes sense to say that at any point in time there is mental content, the so called object, and a variety of mental operations in force, and that the aggregate of those operations constitutes the current mindstate, the state of mind at that time. All those operations are, at that time, *in process*, but a positive elapsing of time is required for their execution - nothing happens in zero time. My primary point is that the notion of "mindstate" (citta plus cetasikas) is both meaningful and compatible with "continuous change" provided that it is not thought of as a packet of namas beginning at time A and ending at time B, but as the aggregate of namic operations *in the midst of execution* at a time. Note that points in time are *not* discrete successors like the integers (1, 2, 3, ...). Rather, between any two points in time there are infinitely many others. There is no immediate-successor relation between points in time, though there are between conventional events. .................................. NEW TG: Yes, I agree with that (I think). LOL Anyway, seems to support my reasoning that change has to be a continuous process...although maybe not explicitly. Let me clarify...does it make sense to compare what we often hear as the Abhidhamma position, and the way that more accords to my outlook... Abhi Commentarial sees conditions as discrete (staccato) phenomenal elements that have their own characteristics including (apparently) a "self contained" limited life span (very short) that is "internally based," not "externally based." I.E., internally based meaning -- based on "their own" nature. Impermanence, for them, does not entail that such phenomena change; but rather merely appear, and disappear. The cause of the "appearance" ... apparently other non-changing elements that have already disappeared prior to effectuating a new condition. The cause of the "disappearance" ... unknown ... but merely stated as "they are impermanent." At this stage, I'm thinking ... believing in Greek Gods doesn't looks so bad. LOL I, on the other hand, see conditions as a dynamic continuously flowing alteration whereby it is the interaction of phenomena that generate the "flow" and forge impermanence. "My" vision "sees" elements as "fundamental structural discriminations" which we can reflect off of, both through experience and analysis, so as to penetrate the tilakkhana and detach from all conditionality. Therefore, my vision is the antithesis of seeing elements as discrete "Ultimate Realities with Their Own Characateristics." This latter vision, in my view, is the opposite of "seeing things for what they really are." .......................................... --------------------------------------------- > > Side Note: This gets close to what I discussed with Sarah of my belief > that > some Abhidhamma thinker came up the "on/off dhamma/citta" theory because > someone believed that nothing could endure through a moment, so they must > be > fully on and then fully off as each moment passes by. Sarah disagreed with > that > reasoning, but I still have my suspicions. > > However, the flaw in that outlook is that Abhidhamma maintains that Rupa > last 17 cittas worth. Therefore, Abhidhamma has a new problem of thinking > that > something persists as a "same thing" through time. Its basically a mess as > > far as I'm concerned. LOL -------------------------------------- Howard: As far as I'm concerned, rupas change during the period of their existence, probably in various ways but certainly in terms of "intensity" (the stages of arising, stasis, and decline), and namas change in an even more complex fashion in order to function, which makes the view of them as irreducible entities (and not conventional objects) an incorrect perspective. Reality, per se, as I've said before, lies beyond our conceptual, verbal, "communicational" attempts, and those attempts are at best "pointings to" of varying satisfactoriness. The Buddha's "pointing to" that is the tilakkhana is, for me, the most satisfactory. ............................................ NEW TG: Your two last sentences are particularly right on in accordance to the way I think. I would probably use a different approach to explain the first part but we probably are in general agreement there. TG OUT #74130 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 7/8/07 1:59:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > In a message dated 7/8/2007 9:50:10 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Hi, TG - > > In a message dated 7/7/07 3:55:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) > writes: > > >Hi Howard > > > >In a message dated 7/7/2007 8:55:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > >_upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...) writes: > > > >It occurs to me that if "moment" is taken to the ultimate, radical point > of > > > >zero-duration, this dispells the "antagonism" between staccato view and > >continuous view. > >As I conceive of matters, "during" a zero-duration moment nothing happens > >but is in the > >midst of happening. > > ............ .... .... > > > >NEW TG: Nothing could be occurring. All would be "frozen" or "stopped." > > > > ............ .... .... > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's basically what I said. My words were <<'during' a > zero-duration moment nothing happens but is in the midst of happening. > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > >On that occasion, there is knowing of object-content in a variety of ways: > > > > >mere being conscious of it, feeling it, recognizing it, attending to it, > >and > >so on. On every > >subsequent occasion, either the object-content or some aspect of the > >knowing > >of it is > >different, and thus the prior state of affairs "has ceased". > > ............ .... .... .... > > > > NEW TG: None of this could happen in a "frozen" "moment of time." All of > >these experiences are dynamic processes that occur over a "period of > time." > > > >(Time is just a measurement for me, not a "thing.") > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not clear on whether you think you are disagreeing with me or not. > ................................... > > NEW TG: I was just clarifying my position. It appears to me also we are > in > agreement but just expressing it a little differently. I think my > explanation involved a complete "frozen" whereby nothing would be > happening. I think > yours dealt with a "point of time" whereby the "flow of time" was still in > operation. Therefore, for you, phenomena were still "in process." ----------------------------------- Howard: Exactly. :-) ------------------------------------ Of course > > my scenario was impossible ... unless it indicates what Nibbana is > like...but > I'm not claiming that either...too chicken! LOL ------------------------------------ Howard: Just between you and me, and I'm just whispering this in your ear, for me nibbana is the vast, free, inconceivable, ungraspable, unconditioned, and sole reality upon which we (seem to) impose all our concepts, views, perspectives, and imputations, and the direct realization of which is perfect freedom, release, and unsurpassable joy. (But please don't pass this on! LOL!) ------------------------------------- > > ....................................... > > > > To me, we seem to be agreeing. I'm saying that it makes sense to say that > at > > any point in time there is mental content, the so called object, and a > variety > of mental operations in force, and that the aggregate of those operations > constitutes the current mindstate, the state of mind at that time. All > those > operations are, at that time, *in process*, but a positive elapsing of time > > is > required for their execution - nothing happens in zero time. > My primary point is that the notion of "mindstate" (citta plus > cetasikas) is both meaningful and compatible with "continuous change" > provided that > it is not thought of as a packet of namas beginning at time A and ending at > > time B, but as the aggregate of namic operations *in the midst of > execution* > at a > time. Note that points in time are *not* discrete successors like the > integers (1, 2, 3, ...). Rather, between any two points in time there are > infinitely > many others. There is no immediate-successor relation between points in > time, > though there are between conventional events. > .................................. > > NEW TG: Yes, I agree with that (I think). LOL Anyway, seems to support > my reasoning that change has to be a continuous process...although maybe > not > explicitly. > > Let me clarify...does it make sense to compare what we often hear as the > Abhidhamma position, and the way that more accords to my outlook... > > Abhi Commentarial sees conditions as discrete (staccato) phenomenal > elements > that have their own characteristics including (apparently) a "self > contained" limited life span (very short) that is "internally based," not > "externally > based." I.E., internally based meaning -- based on "their own" nature. > Impermanence, for them, does not entail that such phenomena change; but > rather > merely appear, and disappear. The cause of the "appearance" ... apparently > > other non-changing elements that have already disappeared prior to > effectuating > a new condition. The cause of the "disappearance" ... unknown ... but > merely > stated as "they are impermanent." --------------------------------------- Howard: I see the continuous-change view and the stacatto view as conceptual alternatives neither of which is perfectly correct. I think viewing "moments" as single points in time rather than as intervals, and thinking of the mindstate at any moment as a citta-cetasika aggregate can harmonize those perspectives, but that scheme also is but a very shaky finger pointing at the moon. These days I find myself increasingly content to follow the Buddha's practice teachings, keeping in mind the four noble truths, the tilakkhana, and paticcasamupada, and, most of all, to just "look". Reality is right here - we needn't search, we need only see. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > At this stage, I'm thinking ... believing in Greek Gods doesn't looks so > bad. LOL ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! ----------------------------------------------------- > > I, on the other hand, see conditions as a dynamic continuously flowing > alteration whereby it is the interaction of phenomena that generate the > "flow" and > forge impermanence. "My" vision "sees" elements as "fundamental structural > > discriminations" which we can reflect off of, both through experience and > analysis, so as to penetrate the tilakkhana and detach from all > conditionality. > > Therefore, my vision is the antithesis of seeing elements as discrete > "Ultimate Realities with Their Own Characateristics." This latter vision, > in my > view, is the opposite of "seeing things for what they really are." ------------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly tend more in your direction, but I find myself increasingly sceptical of all conceptual schemes. -------------------------------------------- > > .......................................... > > > > > --------------------------------------------- > > > > >Side Note: This gets close to what I discussed with Sarah of my belief > >that > >some Abhidhamma thinker came up the "on/off dhamma/citta" theory because > >someone believed that nothing could endure through a moment, so they must > >be > >fully on and then fully off as each moment passes by. Sarah disagreed with > > >that > >reasoning, but I still have my suspicions. > > > >However, the flaw in that outlook is that Abhidhamma maintains that Rupa > >last 17 cittas worth. Therefore, Abhidhamma has a new problem of thinking > > that > >something persists as a "same thing" through time. Its basically a mess as > > > > >far as I'm concerned. LOL > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > As far as I'm concerned, rupas change during the period of their > existence, probably in various ways but certainly in terms of "intensity" > (the > stages of arising, stasis, and decline), and namas change in an even more > complex > fashion in order to function, which makes the view of them as irreducible > entities (and not conventional objects) an incorrect perspective. Reality, > per se, > as I've said before, lies beyond our conceptual, verbal, "communicational" > attempts, and those attempts are at best "pointings to" of varying > satisfactoriness. The Buddha's "pointing to" that is the tilakkhana is, for > > me, the most > satisfactory. > ............................................ > > NEW TG: Your two last sentences are particularly right on in accordance to > > the way I think. I would probably use a different approach to explain the > first part but we probably are in general agreement there. > > TG OUT > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74131 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Howard (and Howard only) In a message dated 7/8/2007 3:31:16 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: Just between you and me, and I'm just whispering this in your ear, for me nibbana is the vast, free, inconceivable, ungraspable, unconditioned, and sole reality upon which we (seem to) impose all our concepts, views, perspectives, and imputations, and the direct realization of which is perfect freedom, release, and unsurpassable joy. (But please don't pass this on! LOL!) ------------------------------------- .................................... NEWER TG: I hope you're right. Sounds better than my outlook of mere ceasing of perception and feeling. LOL (You don't happen to include a few virgins in your scheme do you? You see ... I'm not greedy, I'll even accept single digit numbers.) ;-) ...................................... > > ............ .... .... .... > > > > To me, we seem to be agreeing. I'm saying that it makes sense to say that > at > > any point in time there is mental content, the so called object, and a > variety > of mental operations in force, and that the aggregate of those operations > constitutes the current mindstate, the state of mind at that time. All > those > operations are, at that time, *in process*, but a positive elapsing of time > > is > required for their execution - nothing happens in zero time. > My primary point is that the notion of "mindstate" (citta plus > cetasikas) is both meaningful and compatible with "continuous change" > provided that > it is not thought of as a packet of namas beginning at time A and ending at > > time B, but as the aggregate of namic operations *in the midst of > execution* > at a > time. Note that points in time are *not* discrete successors like the > integers (1, 2, 3, ...). Rather, between any two points in time there are > infinitely > many others. There is no immediate-successor relation between points in > time, > though there are between conventional events. > ............ .... .... > > NEW TG: Yes, I agree with that (I think). LOL Anyway, seems to support > my reasoning that change has to be a continuous process...although maybe > not > explicitly. > > Let me clarify...does it make sense to compare what we often hear as the > Abhidhamma position, and the way that more accords to my outlook... > > Abhi Commentarial sees conditions as discrete (staccato) phenomenal > elements > that have their own characteristics including (apparently) a "self > contained" limited life span (very short) that is "internally based," not > "externally > based." I.E., internally based meaning -- based on "their own" nature. > Impermanence, for them, does not entail that such phenomena change; but > rather > merely appear, and disappear. The cause of the "appearance" ... apparently > > other non-changing elements that have already disappeared prior to > effectuating > a new condition. The cause of the "disappearance" ... unknown ... but > merely > stated as "they are impermanent. --------------------------------------- Howard: I see the continuous-change view and the stacatto view as conceptual alternatives neither of which is perfectly correct. I think viewing "moments" as single points in time rather than as intervals, and thinking of the mindstate at any moment as a citta-cetasika aggregate can harmonize those perspectives, but that scheme also is but a very shaky finger pointing at the moon. These days I find myself increasingly content to follow the Buddha's practice teachings, keeping in mind the four noble truths, the tilakkhana, and paticcasamupada, and, most of all, to just "look". Reality is right here - we needn't search, we need only see. ---------------------------------------------------------- ........................................ NEWER TG: I'll certainly agree that all these things are just "pointings." The better the "pointing" though, the more efficient our Path will be...probably. Far more important that expressing "realities," is seeing the afflicting nature of conditionality in whatever manner leads to detachment...IMO. I think that's basically your idea as well. ...................................... > > At this stage, I'm thinking ... believing in Greek Gods doesn't looks so > bad. LOL ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! ----------------------------------------------------- > > I, on the other hand, see conditions as a dynamic continuously flowing > alteration whereby it is the interaction of phenomena that generate the > "flow" and > forge impermanence. "My" vision "sees" elements as "fundamental structural > > discriminations" which we can reflect off of, both through experience and > analysis, so as to penetrate the tilakkhana and detach from all > conditionality. > > Therefore, my vision is the antithesis of seeing elements as discrete > "Ultimate Realities with Their Own Characateristics. "Ultimate Realities with > in my > view, is the opposite of "seeing things for what they really are." ------------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly tend more in your direction, but I find myself increasingly sceptical of all conceptual schemes. .................................................... NEWER TG: That's a healthy standpoint in my view. TG OUT #74132 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott, Howard In a message dated 7/8/2007 10:42:08 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: If a view is essentially insubstantialist then of course conceptual air-castles can be built. When one considers that there is a reality to that which arises and then falls away - that is this thing exists irreducibly with its own nature - this reality subjects insubstantialist arguments to limitations which, for all intents and purposes, causes them to evaporate. ..................................... Hi Scott Repeating... The Buddha said regarding the 5 Aggregates that -- "A Bhikkhu inspects them, ponders them, and carefully investigates them, and they would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in the 5 Aggregates?" The Buddha SN (Connected Discourses of the Buddha, page 951 -- 952) Completely contradicts your above in virtually every respect that I can see. Now, is there anywhere in the suttas where the Buddha describes the 5 Aggregates as "Ultimate Realities"? I believe the answer is no. It seems to me that the "insubstantialist argument" that the Buddha makes, for all intents and purposes, causes your "substantialist argument" to evaporate! TG #74133 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG: Good one! TG: "Repeating... The Buddha said regarding the 5 Aggregates that -- "A Bhikkhu inspects them, ponders them, and carefully investigates them, and they would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in the 5 Aggregates?" The Buddha SN (Connected Discourses of the Buddha, page 951 -- 952) Completely contradicts your above in virtually every respect that I can see. Now, is there anywhere in the suttas where the Buddha describes the 5 Aggregates as "Ultimate Realities"? I believe the answer is no. It seems to me that the "insubstantialist argument" that the Buddha makes, for all intents and purposes, causes your "substantialist argument" to evaporate!" Scott: What are 'the five aggregates'? Sincerely, Scott. #74134 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 7/8/07 5:52:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Howard only) --------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! (Shhhh!) ------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 7/8/2007 3:31:16 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Howard: > Just between you and me, and I'm just whispering this in your ear, for > me nibbana is the vast, free, inconceivable, ungraspable, unconditioned, > and > sole reality upon which we (seem to) impose all our concepts, views, > perspectives, and imputations, and the direct realization of which is > perfect freedom, > release, and unsurpassable joy. (But please don't pass this on! LOL!) > ------------------------------------- > .................................... > > NEWER TG: I hope you're right. Sounds better than my outlook of mere > ceasing of perception and feeling. LOL (You don't happen to include a few > > virgins in your scheme do you? You see ... I'm not greedy, I'll even > accept single > digit numbers.) ;-) ---------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, I'm not so much for virgins. (Keep in mind how much I value practice!) --------------------------------------- > > ...................................... > > > > > > > > ............ .... .... .... > > > > > > > >To me, we seem to be agreeing. I'm saying that it makes sense to say that > >at > > > >any point in time there is mental content, the so called object, and a > >variety > >of mental operations in force, and that the aggregate of those operations > > >constitutes the current mindstate, the state of mind at that time. All > >those > >operations are, at that time, *in process*, but a positive elapsing of > time > > > >is > >required for their execution - nothing happens in zero time. > >My primary point is that the notion of "mindstate" (citta plus > >cetasikas) is both meaningful and compatible with "continuous change" > >provided that > >it is not thought of as a packet of namas beginning at time A and ending > at > > > >time B, but as the aggregate of namic operations *in the midst of > >execution* > >at a > >time. Note that points in time are *not* discrete successors like the > >integers (1, 2, 3, ...). Rather, between any two points in time there are > >infinitely > >many others. There is no immediate-successor relation between points in > > time, > >though there are between conventional events. > > ............ .... .... > > > >NEW TG: Yes, I agree with that (I think). LOL Anyway, seems to support > >my reasoning that change has to be a continuous process...although maybe > > not > >explicitly. > > > >Let me clarify...does it make sense to compare what we often hear as the > >Abhidhamma position, and the way that more accords to my outlook... > > > >Abhi Commentarial sees conditions as discrete (staccato) phenomenal > >elements > >that have their own characteristics including (apparently) a "self > > contained" limited life span (very short) that is "internally based," not > > >"externally > >based." I.E., internally based meaning -- based on "their own" nature. > >Impermanence, for them, does not entail that such phenomena change; but > >rather > >merely appear, and disappear. The cause of the "appearance" ... apparently > > > > > other non-changing elements that have already disappeared prior to > > effectuating > >a new condition. The cause of the "disappearance" ... unknown ... but > >merely > >stated as "they are impermanent. > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I see the continuous-change view and the stacatto view as conceptual > alternatives neither of which is perfectly correct. I think viewing > "moments" > as single points in time rather than as intervals, and thinking of the > mindstate at any moment as a citta-cetasika aggregate can harmonize those > perspectives, but that scheme also is but a very shaky finger pointing at > the moon. These > days I find myself increasingly content to follow the Buddha's practice > teachings, keeping in mind the four noble truths, the tilakkhana, and > paticcasamupada, and, most of all, to just "look". Reality is right here - > we needn't > search, we need only see. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > ........................................ > > NEWER TG: I'll certainly agree that all these things are just "pointings." > > The better the "pointing" though, the more efficient our Path will > be...probably. Far more important that expressing "realities," is seeing > the > afflicting nature of conditionality in whatever manner leads to > detachment...IMO. I > think that's basically your idea as well. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes indeed! ------------------------------------------ > > ...................................... > > > > > > > >At this stage, I'm thinking ... believing in Greek Gods doesn't looks so > >bad. LOL > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > LOLOL! > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > >I, on the other hand, see conditions as a dynamic continuously flowing > >alteration whereby it is the interaction of phenomena that generate the > >"flow" and > >forge impermanence. "My" vision "sees" elements as "fundamental structural > > > > >discriminations" which we can reflect off of, both through experience and > >analysis, so as to penetrate the tilakkhana and detach from all > >conditionality. > > > >Therefore, my vision is the antithesis of seeing elements as discrete > >"Ultimate Realities with Their Own Characateristics. "Ultimate Realities > with > >in my > >view, is the opposite of "seeing things for what they really are." > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I certainly tend more in your direction, but I find myself > increasingly sceptical of all conceptual schemes. > > > .................................................... > > NEWER TG: That's a healthy standpoint in my view. > > TG OUT > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74135 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/8/2007 4:26:33 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: Mmm, I'm not so much for virgins. (Keep in mind how much I value practice!) ROTF Your right again! The "sadder but wiser girl" eh?. Damn you're wise! LOL TG #74136 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 7/8/2007 4:25:32 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG: Good one! ...................... NEW TG: LOL .......................... TG: "Repeating..T The Buddha said regarding the 5 Aggregates that -- "A Bhikkhu inspects them, ponders them, and carefully investigates them, and they would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in the 5 Aggregates?" The Buddha SN (Connected Discourses of the Buddha, page 951 -- 952) Completely contradicts your above in virtually every respect that I can see. Now, is there anywhere in the suttas where the Buddha describes the 5 Aggregates as "Ultimate Realities"? I believe the answer is no. It seems to me that the "insubstantialist argument" that the Buddha makes, for all intents and purposes, causes your "substantialist argument" to evaporate!" Scott: What are 'the five aggregates'? ............................... NEW TG: Suffering TG OUT #74137 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:42 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,170 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 170. When a fruit arises in a single continuity, it is neither another's nor from other [kamma] because absolute identity and absolute otherness are excluded32 there. The formative processes of seeds establish the meaning of this. For once the formative processes of a mango seed, etc., have been set afoot, when the particular fruit arises in the continuity of the seed's [growth], later on owing to the obtaining of conditions, it does so neither as the fruit of other seeds nor from other formative processes as condition; and those seeds or formative processes do not themselves pass on to the place where the fruit is. This is the analogy here. And the meaning can also be understood from the fact that the arts, crafts, medicine, etc., learnt in youth give their fruit later on in maturity. ------------------------- Note 32. Pa.tisiddhattaa--'because ... excluded': pa.tisiddha is not in P.T.S. Dict. Abhisa"nkhaara here might mean 'planting work', not 'formative processes'. ************************* 170. ekasantaanasmi.m hi phala.m uppajjamaana.m tattha ekanta ekattanaanattaana.m pa.tisiddhattaa a~n~nassaati vaa a~n~natoti vaa na hoti. etassa ca panatthassa biijaana.m abhisa"nkhaaro saadhako. ambabiijaadiina.m hi abhisa"nkhaaresu katesu tassa biijassa santaane laddhapaccayo kaalantare phalaviseso uppajjamaano na a~n~nabiijaana.m, naapi a~n~naabhisa"nkhaarapaccayaa uppajjati, na ca taani biijaani, te abhisa"nkhaaraa vaa phala.t.thaana.m paapu.nanti, eva.msampadamida.m veditabba.m. vijjaasipposadhaadiihi caapi baalasariire upayuttehi kaalantare vu.d.dhasariiraadiisu phaladehi ayamattho veditabbo. #74138 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG: Another good one!! Me: What are 'the five aggregates'? NEW TG: Suffering Scott: No, what are they? Its nigh on impossible to pin down an Insubstantialist, especially one who is a 'wise-acre'. Q: By the way, how many Insubstantialists does it take to change a light bulb? A: What light bulb? Sincerely, Scott. #74139 From: "colette" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:38 pm Subject: Re: Vicikiccha? ksheri3 Good Day connie, Delicious quotes, where do you come up with these ingredients? Too bad you're in FLA. since I might've thought you had the OCD that the British have, gardening. If you did then I could answer the question you ended the quotes on. Dear me, bonsai trees, the Japanese are quite keen on growning Tiny Trees. Just a thought, as I wrote that I considered that the Japanese may also be keen on growning Tiny Bubbles, but that's a Bing thing, no? Actually I don't have a clue who wrote and sung that song, Tiny Bubbles, I just know that it was around the age of the crooner, and there were a lot of crooners back then, no? So maybe pruning isn't simply a British gardening compulsion it could also be a Japanese compulsion as well. The tree's limb that was severed at both ends can still grow however it is like fire, it needs: spark (ignition), fuel (that whihc is to be consumed), and oxygen. thanks for the quote. When I get to a library I'm gonna look into that sacred text and possibly copy it. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > dear colette, > in answer to: > ... > which came first: > The Known > or The Mind that Knows? > ... > > from the Questions of King Milinda: > << > 7. The king said: 'Does thought-perception arise wherever sight arises?' > 'Yes, O king, where the one is there is the other.' > 'And which of the two arises first?' > 'First sight, then thought.' > 'Then does the sight issue, as it were, a command to thought, saying: "Do > you spring up there where I have? or does thought issue command to sight, > saying: Where you spring up there will I."' > 'It is not so, great king. There is no intercourse between the one and the > other.' <....> #74140 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:54 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,170 nichiconn The Path of Purity, ch.17, p6.665-6: A fruit arising in a certain continuity does not belong to "any other, nor is it from any other cause," because of the inhibition of a decided oneness or otherness. And "this purport is effected by preparing (growth) of seeds": - When preparations have been made, the particular fruit, which arises in time from the conditions obtained in the continuity of that seed, is not the fruit of other seeds, nor is it due to the preparations of other seeds. Neither do the seeds nor the preparations reach the place of the fruit. Thus should the fulfilment (of this simile) be understood. The meaning is to be understood also by the result that is ultimately given to the graduates in arts and sciences and medicine studied by them when young. #74141 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:53 pm Subject: Re: A Siila Perspective kenhowardau Hi Andrew, ------------ <. . .> A: > Do you want a poem? ;-)) ------------ Let me think . . . what rhymes with sarcasm? :-) ---------------- KH: > > > He talks about 'good actions inspired by selfishness,' and I think > such things are possible provided we are talking about two or more > different mind moments. But is that what he is talking about? > > A: > Do you remember all those posts on DSG about the sorrow we experience when someone close to us dies and how (to be brutally honest) most of it is ego-centred "poor me"? I think that, in the same way, the Bhikkhu is being brutally honest about "our good actions". You really shouldn't be any more confused than you have been on lots of other threads here. :-{ -------------- I see. So, when he said the actions were good he was speaking in conventional - not paramattha - terms. ----------------------- <. . .> A: > As to his "things" - paramattha or pannatti? He knew Pali and was well versed in Abhidhamma. But I suspect that his lectures were full of pannatti "things" as much as the suttas are, with the reminder that they are not ultimately real. Could we expect otherwise? Do you have the style of writing of some other author in mind as an example that satisfies your exacting standards? ----------------- Yes, of course I do. Nina would be one [shining] example, would she not? If an author is going to write in conventional terminology he/she needs to give constant reminders that he is ultimately talking about paramattha dhammas. The no-control perspective we are learning at DSG is not widely known today, let alone 50 years ago (in BD's time). So, brilliant though he obviously was, I think we can safely assume he didn't fully twig to the Abhidhamma. -------------- A: > Dhammapala didn't shy away from the implications of anatta in the way that pop Buddhism does today. But I can't claim to be an expert on him as I only have a few of his many writings. As the title said, it's just another perspective that may interest some. --------------- Yes, of course. I just needed a bit of help (labelling him, and slotting him into a category). :-) I give him 8 out of 10 and a koala stamp. Had he been alive today he would have loved DSG, that's for sure. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > Hi KenH > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > This Bhikkhu explains things differently from any way we are used > to > > at DSG. > #74142 From: "colette" Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 9:28 pm Subject: Re: A Siila Perspective ksheri3 Hi Ken H, Okay, I'll take the bait knowing full well the booby-traps that are attached to it: A Siila Perspective: so the rules of the game have been set in that it's about "morality". I've gotta ask, is the "perspective" from the POV wearing 4 inch mules, f*ck me pumps? So then, the morality as suggested here is open for debate and, well, the doctor sure can't examine the patient while it's fully clothed no can she/he? Okay, lets suggest that there is a possibility that the perspectives can only be conventional and ultimate. What a stick in the mudd huh? > > Let me think . . . what rhymes with sarcasm? :-) > colette: you must've done a lot of thinking for that one, but it could be that you have this routine down pattented so you can do it in your sleep, this denotes CONDITIONING and boy does that stink (have you been eating refried beens), man there ain't no way I'll go poking around that one at the moment since there are other conditions that have to be met before disarming a potential threat. We'll just say that you're thinking about your middle-managers in the DISTRIBUTION part of the food-chain so you're suggesting the BIG O, as in OVERSTOCK. ---------------- > KH: > > > He talks about 'good actions inspired by selfishness,' and > I think > > such things are possible provided we are talking about two or more > > different mind moments. But is that what he is talking about? > > > colette: it's very possible that I'm missing the point of this post but the above from KH is well written. the "...two or more different mind moments." was very good as to wake people up to the need to be observant, the need for the mind to perform it's own Yogas. The potentials it elicits flavor the msg. all that much more. It's like savouring a mouthfull and then you say "...what he is talking about" and this excentuates the flavor all that much more since now the student has to think inside another's perspective. -------------------------------------------- colette: This reply seems to miss the mark completely since it entirely focuses on an individual's thoughts, concepts, of themselves (the proverbial I that "is" and we all know better than to raise the thornyness of the principles of Anatta) ----------- > A: > Do you remember all those posts on DSG about the sorrow we > experience when someone close to us dies and how (to be brutally > honest) most of it is ego-centred "poor me"? colette: while I was away last summer my roomates wrote me that one of their grandmothers died. I told them that they shouldn't be sorry and greive very long since they should rejoice that she has been freed from the suffering of this world. My attitudes of death have been flavoured by the time I spent living in New Orlens LA so you'll have to excuse them since permenence is what Andrew is speaking of here. I made it very clear to my roomates that while they are understandable to morn the passing but they should realize that this passing is a blessing in disguise, that clinging to the memories that CONDITION their consciousness would be disrespectful to her since they would be restraining her from progressing on the path. She is still the same person and therefore they shouldn't bring sorrow to her progress. Rather a greedy way to live, no? ---------------- > I see. So, when he said the actions were good he was speaking in > conventional - not paramattha - terms. > colette: this is what raised the consciousness that this piece of work is highly booby-trapped. While I am first in line to be using/applying SARDONIC HUMOUR and sarcasm (abyss, that gaping black hole that not even light escapes from) A crafty one you seem to be tonight KH. Ever practice in the Wiccan community? > ----------------------- > <. . .> > A: > As to his "things" - paramattha or pannatti? He knew Pali and was > well versed in Abhidhamma. But I suspect that his lectures were > full of pannatti "things" as much as the suttas are, with the > reminder that they are not ultimately real. Could we expect > otherwise? Do you have the style of writing of some other author in > mind as an example that satisfies your exacting standards? > ----------------- > > Yes, of course I do. Nina would be one [shining] example, would she > not? If an author is going to write in conventional terminology > he/she needs to give constant reminders that he is ultimately talking > about paramattha dhammas. colette: while I don't doubt that Nina has a lot of wisdom learned through the practice of the suttas I tend to shy away since her aspects of control are too heavy for me. I have no arguments that the only way to develope quality skills is to practice the fundementals daily, that isn't my way of learning the process. That, too, has been a learned behavior since I've had to develope my own techniques in learning the esoteric, mainly anything that doesn't agree with fundamentalist christianity, I've had to do it solatarily, singularly, and while being mocked. Surely you must've noticed my ability to remain focused on MY ops. while others have been trying their best to get me to do my worst, which would be to redirect my concentration. ------ > > The no-control perspective we are learning at DSG is not widely known > today, let alone 50 years ago (in BD's time). So, brilliant though he > obviously was, I think we can safely assume he didn't fully twig to > the Abhidhamma. > colette: my understanding of the Abhidhamma is that it was a formulation after the Buddha and it was a formulation of the Sangha therefore it was a deep analysis of the Suttas. With this as the case then, well, there are many mystics that would be very open to such a deep, profound, examination of the Buddha and disciples. I've said it many a times: the Abhidhamma is as dry as dust. the only reason it appeals to me so much is that this is a very good example of how I've operated since 1982. It places into words such operations that I've spent months on. Have you, for instance, ever considered attempting THE SACRED MAGIC OF ABREMELIN THE MAGE? That ordeal takes soooooo long and it's so subtle. I gave up on in the late-80s. > -------------- > A: > Dhammapala didn't shy away from the implications of anatta in the > way that pop Buddhism does today. But I can't claim to be an expert > on him as I only have a few of his many writings. > > As the title said, it's just another perspective that may interest > some. > --------------- > > Yes, of course. I just needed a bit of help (labelling him, and > slotting him into a category). :-) > colette: Watch out Andrew, he's gotcha here but now he's gotta stick with it since he's labeled himself. Sarcasm included. Labeling is one trait that is VERY DIFFICULT TO OVERCOME, I tend to hide my labeling characteristics within the sarcasm, the dribble, the non-sense, I lay out trying to bring levity to the bad characteristic and to show how trivial labeling is/can be. toodles, colette > I give him 8 out of 10 and a koala stamp. Had he been alive today he > would have loved DSG, that's for sure. > > Ken H > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > > > Hi KenH > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > > wrote: > > > This Bhikkhu explains things differently from any way we are used > > to > > > at DSG. > > > #74143 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:41 pm Subject: Change and Alteration Reference -- "An alteration of that which stands" TGrand458@... Hi Howard, Nina, Sarah, Scott, All Looking for something else, I came across this reference about the 5 Aggregates changing and altering. The question regarding "change/alteration" has been somewhat in question with some here. " The Blessed One then said to the Venerable Ananda as he was sitting to one side: If, Ananda, they were to ask you: 'Friend Ananda, what are the things of which an arising WAS discerned, a vanishing WAS discerned, an alteration of that which stands WAS discerned? What are the things of which an arising WILL BE discerned, a vanishing WILL BE discerned, an alteration of that which stands WILL BE discerned? What are the things of which an arising IS discerned, a vanishing IS discerned, an alteration of that which stands IS discerned? -- being asked that Ananda, how would you answer? Venerable sir, if they were to ask me this, I would answer thus: Friends, with form that has passed, ceased, changed, an arising was discerned, a vanishing was discerned, an alteration of that which stands was discerned. With feeling ... perception ... volitional formations ... consciousness that has passed, ceased, changed, an arising was discerned, a vanishing was discerned, an alteration of that which stands was discerned. Its is of these things, friends, that an arising was discerned, that a vanishing was discerned, that an alteration of that which stands was discerned." TG: In short ... The above is repeated for future and present states. The Buddha approves of and repeats the same formula. Samyutta Nikaya (Connected Discourses of the Buddha page 881) TG: There are many other Suttas that express change in this manner. Not to mention those I've posted many times of late describing things as wearing away, rubbing away, etc. TG #74144 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:40 pm Subject: drought? nichiconn hiya christine, others, hope y'all got water and all is 'well'. Don't take me wrong here, but I remembered your plight when I was reading in Q's of King M, the 2nd paragraph of King Sivi - << 43. 'What then, O king? Is there in the world such a thing as Truth, by the asseveration of which true believers can perform the Act of Truth 1?' 'Yes, Lord, there is. And by it true believers make the rain to fall, and fire to go out 2, and ward off the effects of poison, and accomplish many other things they want to do.' 'Then, great king, that fits the case, that meets it on all fours. It was by the power of Truth that those divine eyes were produced for Sivi the king. By the power of the Truth the divine eye arose when no other cause was present, for the Truth itself was, in that case, the cause of its production. Suppose, {p. 181 [paragraph continues]} O king, any Siddha (accomplished one 1) on intoning a charm 2, and saying: "Let a mighty rain now fall!" were to bring about a heavy rainfall by the intoning of his charm--would there in that case be any cause for rain accumulated in the sky by which the rain could be brought about?' 'No, Sir. The charm itself would be the cause.' 'Just so, great king, in the case put. There would be no ordinary cause. The Truth itself would be sufficient reason for the growth of the divine eye!' >> failing that, we can hope for dry insight. best wishes, connie #74145 From: connie Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:40 pm Subject: Re: Vicikiccha? nichiconn colette ~ The tree's limb that was severed at both ends can still grow however it is like fire, it needs: spark (ignition), fuel (that which is to be consumed), and oxygen. (#74139) connie ~ also like fire in that neither of them is really there when out? it'll be fire season here soon enough. not fla! that was moon doggie, dino's mother. she was probably crooner era. but these are past connections. and future? i don't have deep thoughts. i live in fantasy land. scott seems to think i should let the leprechauns out. for all i know, you are one. oxygen isn't flame's fuel? spark and flame aren't fire? yes, do read The Questions of King Milinda! www.sacred-texts.com/bud/milinda.htm i myself drool and pore over bits and pieces of the nine course meal: << --though I have received the traditions, and been devoted to study, and to hearing the law, and to learning by heart, and to the acquirements of discipleship, and though I have been ready to learn, and to ask and to answer questions, and to sit at the feet of teachers--I too have never heard >> p. 173 see you in the garden, connie. #74146 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 12:31 am Subject: Re: ahosi kamma sarahprocter... Hi Connie, Mike & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > Path of Purification, xix, 14: Herein, kamma is fourfold: to be > experienced here and now, to be experienced on rebirth, to be experienced > in some subsequent becoming, and lapsed kamma.<..> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69928 S: I believe 'lapsed kamma' is not a good translation. As I mentioned before (and as you heard on tape). K.Sujin always corrects this and says 'ahosi kamma' just means 'past kamma': See the 'to the bailiff post': http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69994 Time to look at Ps ii.78 in more detail as partially quoted in the Vism ref, X1X, 14: Patisambhidamagga ii. 78, Treatise V11 - On Action (Kammakathaa) (PTS, Nanamoli transl., Pali inserted): "There has been action (Ahosikamma.m), there has been action-result (ahosikammavipaako); there has been action(ahosikamma.m), there has been no action-result (naahosikammavipaako). There has been action (Ahosikamma.m), there is action-result (atthikammavipaako); there has been action (ahosikamma.m), there is no action-result (naatthikammavipaako). There has been action (Ahosikamma.m), there will be action-result (bhavissatikammavipaako); there has been action (ahosikamma.m), there will be no action-result (nabhavissatikammavipaako). There is action (atthikamma.m), there is action-result (atthikammavipaako); there is action (atthikamma.m), there is no action-result (natthikammavipaako. There is action (atthikamma.m), there will be action-result (bhavissatikammavipaako); there is action (atthikamma.m), there will be no action-result (vabhavissatikammavipaako). There will be action (Bhavissatikamma.m), there will be action-result (bhavissatikammavipaako); there will be action (bhavissatikamma.m), there will be no action-result (nabhavissatikammavipaako). [and so on as for all the above., but profitable action (ahosi kusala.m kamma.m) etc. and profitable action result (ahosi kusalasasa kammassa vipaako) etc for all 6 cases, then with .unprofitable action (ahosi akusala.m kamma.m) etc. and unprofitable action result (ahosi akusalassa kammassa vipaako) etc., followed by: There has been represhensible action (ahosi saavajja.m kamma.m) for all 6 cases...... ....unreprehensible action (anavajja.m).......dark action (ka.nha.m) ....bright action (suka.m)....action productive of pleasure (sukhundriya.m)...of pain (dukkhundriya.m).....action resulting in pleasure(sukhavipaaka.m)....in pain (dukkhavipaaka.m) for all 6 cases above.]" ******** S: We went through this text in Bangkok. As KS pointed out, ahosikamma refers to 'past' action, as opposed to present or future action. It clearly indicates such ahosi kamma may or many not a) have brought results, b)be bringing results now or c)bring results in future. So, I think she seems to be correct when she stresses that 'lapsed' or 'inoperative kamma' is not an adequate translation or understanding of ahosi kamma. Of course, the Pali term also simply points to 'past'! Let me know if the 'jury is still out' on this one. Metta, Sarah ======= #74147 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 1:00 am Subject: Re: A Siila Perspective corvus121 Hi Collette (and KenH) Thanks for "taking the bait"! :-)) Limited time so just a few snipped comments below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > colette: while I was away last summer my roomates wrote me that one > of their grandmothers died. I told them that they shouldn't be sorry > and greive very long since they should rejoice that she has been > freed from the suffering of this world. My attitudes of death have > been flavoured by the time I spent living in New Orlens LA so you'll > have to excuse them since permenence is what Andrew is speaking of > here. I made it very clear to my roomates that while they are > understandable to morn the passing but they should realize that this > passing is a blessing in disguise, that clinging to the memories that > CONDITION their consciousness would be disrespectful to her since > they would be restraining her from progressing on the path. She is > still the same person and therefore they shouldn't bring sorrow to > her progress. Rather a greedy way to live, no? Andrew: Nice advice. Although I'm not sure I understand how the living can affect the path progress of the dead. Is there a sutta about that? > A crafty one you seem to be tonight KH. Ever practice in the Wiccan > community? Andrew: I'd like to hear your answer to this question, too, Ken. Do you have the style of writing of some other author in > > mind as an example that satisfies your exacting standards? > > ----------------- > > > > Yes, of course I do. Nina would be one [shining] example, would she > > not? If an author is going to write in conventional terminology > > he/she needs to give constant reminders that he is ultimately > talking > > about paramattha dhammas. > colette: while I don't doubt that Nina has a lot of wisdom learned > through the practice of the suttas I tend to shy away since her > aspects of control are too heavy for me. I have no arguments that the > only way to develope quality skills is to practice the fundementals > daily, that isn't my way of learning the process. That, too, has been > a learned behavior since I've had to develope my own techniques in > learning the esoteric, mainly anything that doesn't agree with > fundamentalist christianity, I've had to do it solatarily, > singularly, and while being mocked. Surely you must've noticed my > ability to remain focused on MY ops. while others have been trying > their best to get me to do my worst, which would be to redirect my > concentration. Andrew: I do agree with Ken here - Nina does write clearly with many reminders that conventional terms have another level of meaning. I think the issue is not so much the writers but the limitations of language itself. Direct knowing is beyond language but, if Ken is right, the early way towards direct knowing necessarily involves language ("hearing the true Dhamma" etc.) As far as I can tell, KS herself has no aversion to language - pannatti has a vital role in the passing of meaning (or the arising of understanding). As you rightly point out, we all develop our own (language-using) learning techniques. >I can't claim to be an expert > > on him as I only have a few of his many writings. > > > > As the title said, it's just another perspective that may interest > > some. > > --------------- > > > > Yes, of course. I just needed a bit of help (labelling him, and > > slotting him into a category). :-) > > > colette: Watch out Andrew, he's gotcha here but now he's gotta stick > with it since he's labeled himself. Sarcasm included. Labeling is one > trait that is VERY DIFFICULT TO OVERCOME, I tend to hide my labeling > characteristics within the sarcasm, the dribble, the non-sense, I lay > out trying to bring levity to the bad characteristic and to show how > trivial labeling is/can be. Andrew: Agreed! A bad or wrong label is blinding. For many years, I labelled Abhidhamma "a valley of dry bones" and never went there. Glad to hear you didn't make the same mistake! Bye for now Andrew #74148 From: connie Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 2:49 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (62) nichiconn Dear Friends, 9. Navakanipaato 1. Va.d.dhamaatutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 3 On verse: 206. "Tehaanuci.n.na.m isiihi, magga.m dassanapattiyaa; dukkhassantakiriyaaya, tva.m va.d.dha anubruuhayaa"ti.- 206. Va.d.dha, devote yourself to the way practised by those seers for the attainment of insight, for the putting of an end to pain. txt: Yasmaa ceteva.m, tasmaa tehaanuci.n.na.m isiihi…pe… anubruuhayaati tehi khii.naasavehi isiihi anuci.n.na.m pa.tipanna.m samathavipassanaamagga.m ~naa.nadassanassa adhigamaaya sakalassaapi va.t.tadukkhassa antakiriyaaya va.d.dha, tva.m anubruuhaya va.d.dheyyaasiiti. Pruitt: 206. Since this is so, therefore [Va.d.dha,] devote yourself [to the way] practised by those seers ... [an end of pain (dukkhass')]; [and this] means: Va.d.dha devote yourself to, you should cultivate (va.d.dheyyaasi), the path of calm and insight practised by, followed by, those seers with their taints annihilated for attaining knowing and seeing, for the putting of an end to the pain of continued existence (va.t.ta-dukkhassa) in its entirety. txt: Ta.m sutvaa va.d.dhatthero "addhaa mama maataa arahatte pati.t.thitaa"ti cintetvaa tamattha.m pavedento- 207. "Visaaradaava bha.nasi, etamattha.m janetti me; ma~n~naami nuuna maamike, vanatho te na vijjatii"ti.- Gaathamaaha. Pruitt: When he heard that, Thera Va.d.dha thought to himself, "Surely my mother is established in Arahatship." And he proclaimed this matter, speaking this verse: 207. Confident indeed you speak this matter to me, mother. Now indeed, I think, craving is not found in you, mother. RD: And Va.d.dha, thinking, 'My mother is surely established in Arahantship,' expressed himself thus: Now in good hope and faith thou speakest thus, O little mother! well I trow, for thee. Dear mother mine, no jungle bars the way. (207) txt: Tattha visaaradaava bha.nasi, etamattha.m janetti meti "maa su te va.d.dha lokamhi, vanatho ahu kudaacanan"ti etamattha.m eta.m ovaada.m, amma, vigatasaarajjaa katthaci alaggaa analliinaava hutvaa mayha.m vadasi. Tasmaa ma~n~naami nuuna maamike, vanatho te na vijjatiiti, nuuna maamike mayha.m, amma, gehasitapemamattopi vanatho tuyha.m mayi na vijjatiiti ma~n~naami, na maamikaati attho. Pruitt: 207. There, confident indeed you speak this matter to me, mother means: Mother, you speak to me about this matter, with this instruction, "May you not have, Va.d.dha, craving for the world at any time," and your timidity is gone; you are not devoted to, you do not adhere to anything. Therefore, now indeed, I think, craving is not found in you (te) mother means: I think (ma~n~naami), now indeed, mother, my mother, craving, even mere affection connected with the home, is not found in you (tuyha.m) for me - [that is to say,] not [in you] mother. That is the meaning. ===tbc, connie. #74149 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 5:20 am Subject: Re: Change and Alteration Reference -- "An alteration of that which stands" scottduncan2 Dear TG, et al, Regarding: "If, Ananda, they were to ask you: 'Friend Ananda, what are the things of which an arising WAS discerned, a vanishing was discerned, an alteration of that which stands was discerned? What are the things of which an arising will be discerned, a vanishing will be discerned, an alteration of that which stands will be discerned? What are the things of which an arising is discerned, a vanishing is discerned, an alteration of that which stands IS discerned? -- being asked that Ananda, how would you answer? "Venerable sir, if they were to ask me this, I would answer thus: Friends, with form that has passed, ceased, changed, an arising was discerned, a vanishing was discerned, an alteration of that which stands was discerned. With feeling ... perception ... volitional formations ... consciousness that has passed, ceased, changed, an arising was discerned, a vanishing was discerned, an alteration of that which stands was discerned. Its is of these things, friends, that an arising was discerned, that a vanishing was discerned, that an alteration of that which stands was discerned." Samyutta Nikaya (Connected Discourses of the Buddha page 881) The Pali: ... sace ma.m bhante, eva.m puccheyyu.m: katamesa.m aavuso aananda, dhammaana.m uppaado pa~n~naayati. Vayo pa~n~naayati, .thitassa a~n~nathatta.m pa~n~naayatii ti .Eva.m pu.t.thoha.m bhante, eva.m khyaakareyya.m: ruupassa kho aavuso, uppaado pa~n~naayati. Vayo pa~n~naayati, .thitassa a~n~nathatta.m pa~n~naayati, vedanaaya uppaado pa~n~naayati, vayo pa~n~naayati, .thitassa a~n~nathatta.m pa~n~naayati, sa~n~naaya uppà do pa~n~naayati, vayo pa~n~naayati, .thitassa a~n~nathatta.m pa~n~naayati, sa.mkhaaraana.m uppaado pa~n~naayati, vayo pa~n~naayati, .thitassa a~n~nathatta.m pa~n~naayati. Vi~n~naa.nassa uppaado pa~n~naayati, vayo pa~n~naayati, .thitassa a~n~nathatta.m pa~n~naayati, imesa.m kho aavuso. Dhammaana.m uppaado pa~n~naayati, vayo pa~n~naayati. .Thitassa a~n~nathatta.m pa~n~naatiiti, eva.m pu.t.thoha.m bhante, eva.m khyaakareyyanti. Key words (PED PTS): ".Thiti (f.)... state (as opposed to becoming), stability, steadfastness; duration, continuance, immobility; persistence, keeping up (of: c. gen.); condition of ( --Ëš) relation ..." "Pa~n~naayati [Pass. of pajaanaati] to be (well) known, to be clear or evident, to be perceived, seen or taken for, to appear ..." "...Uppaada2 [Sk. utpaada, ud + pad] coming into existence, appearance, birth ... (cittËš state of consciousness)" "Uppaadeti [Caus. of uppajjati, ud + pad] -- 1. to give rise to, to produce, put forth, show, evince, make ... cittaÅ‹ u. to give a (temporary) thought to ..." "Uppajjati [ud + pajjati of pad] to come out, to arise, to be produced, to be born or reborn, to come into existence ... " "A~n~nathatta (nt.) [a~n~nathaa + tta] 1. change, alteration 2. difference 3. erroneous supposition, mistake 4. fickleness, change of mind, doubt, wavering ..." I'll add: SN 35 84(1) Subject to Disintegration (Bh. Bodhi, p.1163) "At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Aananda approached the Blessed One ... and said to him: "Venerable sir, it is said, 'the world, the world.' In what way, venerable sir, is it said 'the world'? "Whatever is subject to disintegration, Aananda, is called the world in the Noble One's Discipline. And what is subject to disintegration? The eye, Aananda, is subject to disintegration, forms ... eye-consciousness ... eye-contact ... whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition ... that too is subject to disintegration. The ear is subject to disintegration ... The mind is subject to disintegration ... Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition ... that too is subject to disintegration. Whatever is subject to disintegration, Aananda, is called the world in the Noble One's Discipline." Palokadhammasutta.m 84. Saavatthiya.m atha kho aayasmaa aanando yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami. Upasa"nkamitvaa bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. Ekamanta.m nisinno kho aayasmaa aanando bhagavanta.m etadavoca: loko lokoti bhante vuccati, kittaavataa nu kho bhante lokoti vuccatiiti. Ya.m kho aananda palokadhamma.m aya.m vuccati ariyassa vinaye loko. Ki~nca aananda palokadhamma.m? Cakkhu.m kho aananda palokadhamma.m, ruupaa palokadhammaa, cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m palokadhamma.m, cakkhusamphasso palokadhammo, yampida.m cakkhusamphassapaccayaa uppajjati vedayita.m sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi palokadhamma.m. Sota.m palokadhamma.m, saddaa palokadhammaa, sotavi~n~naa.na.m palokadhamma.m, sotasamphasso palokadhammo, yampida.m sotasamphassapaccayaa uppajjati vedayita.m sukha.m và dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi palokadhamma.m. Ghaana.m palokadhamma.m, gandhaa palokadhammaa, ghaanavi~n~naa.na.m palokadhamma.m, ghaanasamphasso palokadhammo, yampida.m ghaanasamphassapaccayaa uppajjati vedayita.m sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi palokadhamma.m. Jivhaa palokadhammaa, rasaa palokadhammaa, jivhaaaai~n`naa.na.m palokadhamma.m, jivhaasamphasso palokadhammo, yampida.m jivhaasamphassapaccayaa uppajjati vedayita.m sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi palokadhamma.m. Kaayo palokadhammo, pho.t.thabbaa palokadhammaa, kà yavi~n~naa.na.m palokadhamma.m, kaayasamphasso palokadhammo, yampida.m kaayasamphassapaccayaa uppajjati vedayita.m sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi palokadhamma.m. Mano palokadhammo, dhammaa palokadhammaa, manovi~n~naa.na.m palokadhamma,m, manosamphasso palokadhammo, yampida.m manosamphassapaccayaa uppajjati vedayita.m sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi palokadhamma.m. Ya.m kho aananda, palokadhammà .m aya.m vuccati ariyassa vinaye lokoti. Scott: What to take figuratively, and what to take literally - difficult without guidance... Sincerely, Scott. #74150 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Complexity of Kamma: Unraveling the Kusala-Akusala Mix upasaka_howard Hi, all - I was just reading a couple modern commentaries about the "pagan" soothsayer, Balaam, in the Judaic Torah tradition, who, while having blessed Israel (with words that even made it into the Jewish prayerbook!), but who eventually died by the sword. The commentary with regard to him got me to thinking about the complexity of kamma and of how right the Buddha was in cautioning against trying to figure out its details. In the course of my musings on this, I was thinking about the categorization of what "happens to us" in terns of kusala versus akusala and in terms of causality. For one thing, it seems so, as the Buddha has indicated, that whatever befalls us is not independent of our kamma nor is it entirely determined by our kamma, but is multiply conditioned, with "input" consisting of our own kamma and that of others, manifested through direct action and through "nature". Also, the matter is so complex that it is often far from obvious how to evaluate macroscopic events along the kusala-akusala spectrum. For one thing, any such event consists of millions of microscopic occurrences, most of which escape our purview, and these microscopic elements may be variously conditioned. Moreover, the matter is extremely subtle. Consider the being who has attained rebirth as a human in a loving family and in good health, but, as an infant, is accidentally shot and killed in the crossfire of a "drive-by shooting." Was the human birth kusala? If yes, in what respect? It *was* one condition for this tragic killing. If that birth was kusala, then we have the situation of a kusala event serving as condition for a tragedy, which may be "unacceptable" to some. On the other hand, the birth may have been kusala vipaka for child and parents, offering great potential, and the tragic death the kammic fruition (in part, of course) of *other* past actions of that infant and his/her parents. (I say "in part", because the immoral action of the killers is the most direct condition.) When it comes to the "events of the world", it is incredibly difficult to determine what leads to what and to distinguish "good" from "bad". It may be useful to consider, and I do think it is, but great caution should be observed in reaching conclusions, it seem to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74151 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 7:10 am Subject: delayed letter to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, Due to new pain in the other leg and therapy, I could not write much. And now the therapist forbids me to sit long at the computer (not longer than half an hour), to stand or to lie down. What posture is left: walking. But the following is about our last outing. You wrote to me beforehand to be aware of realities while walking, at my ease, and I wrote back that I did not plan anything. Due to your kind concern I was indeed reminded. I thought of what you wrote and I had to laugh while walking. Lodewijk said that I should tell you this. I also read to him your good post to us about life and death. Lodewijk was impressed and he said that it is so sincere, kind and well thought out: H: < Please let your thoughts be directed not so much to death itself but to the great importance of this life, right here and now, of living it to its fullest in the best Buddhist sense, and for sharing love and good will and compassion for all the beings we encounter. As many of us point out here, at any time it is only this very moment that we have. Enjoy it, Nina, you and Lodewijk together. Make it worthwhile, filled with love and the Dhamma, and without thoughts of death except as a reminder to attend to this moment all the more.> As I said, shortly after 'our disagreement' about that commentary text (as you know, I do not take this personally;-) ) , someone on the Pali list asked me about the difference between Sutta and Abhidhamma. I quoted this to TG. All this made me reflect more on the difference between Sutta and Abhidhamma. I also thought of what you previously said about the five khandhas. Now I do not want to make any issues, but I only like investigate myself in what way the Abhidhamma can help us to see things in a very concrete way, not in a theoretical way. First let me highlight a few points from the Expositor. p. 4: I am thinking of the beginning of the Book of Analysis, the Analysis of the Aggregates. Of each of the five khandhas (just as in the Suttas) it is said that they are past, future, present, etc. After that there is the Abhidhamma division with all the details. The first Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, that enumerates all the cetasikas accompanying the kusala citta that is associated with pa~n~naa also helps us to understand the khandhas. It is actually a practical approach to the Dhamma taught by the Buddha. I remember former discussions about the khandhas being a concept, although you agree that what they are composed of are not concepts. I am not inclined to think too much about the fact whether they are concepts or not. I would rather see the khandhas in relation to the present moment, now. I think the Abhidhamma can help here. Take for example confidence in kusala, saddhaa. This is khandha, it can be said that it is past, future and present. It arises and falls away. When we study the teachings and reflect on it, correspond on it, there is saddhaa. There is a degree of alobha, we do not cling to our own confort or to any fun like T.V. Alobha is khandha. There is adosa (I hope!), no aversion about the other's views. Adosa is khandha. All these cetasikas are realities, each with their own characteristics. Many of them are also mentioned in the Sutta, but in the Abhidhamma they are fully classified. Expositor p. 14, is about the 'ocean of method', the three Pi.takas. Infinite rapture and joy arises in reflecting on the Vinaya and Sutta. And as to the Abhidhamma: The distinction between nama and rupa is emphasized: this is realized from the first stage of tender insight on. I find it very meaningful that the Abhidhamma points to this. It is the practice of vipassana. On p. 26 of the Expositor, the three parts of the Tipitaka are compared again. Respectively they are: Again: nama and rupa. After that comes the text you did not appreciate, but perhaps we talked about that enough already. My computer time is up. Nina. #74152 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 7:49 am Subject: Conditions Ch 7, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, The objects which are decisive support-condition are a powerful inducement, a cogent reason for the arising of the cittas concerned. However, we should remember that there are also other conditions. It depends on someone’s accumulated inclinations whether he has “wise attention” or “unwise attention” to an object. Which objects are powerful inducements for the arising of kusala citta and which objects for the arising of lobha-múla-citta in our life? Most of the time we are intent on acquiring pleasant objects for ourselves, objects which can be a decisive support-condition for clinging. There can be awareness of the realities which appear, also of clinging. We should not ignore clinging or despise it as an object of awareness. It arises naturally in our daily life because there are still conditions for its arising. If we do not know its true nature we will take it for self and then it cannot be eradicated. Nibbåna and the eight types of lokuttara citta which experience it [1] cannot be object predominance-condition for lobha-múla citta, nor can they be decisive support-condition of object for lobha-múla- citta. We read in the “Patthåna” (Faultless Triplet, VII, Investigation Chapter, Conditions, Positive, Classification Chapter, Strong Dependence, § 423), that nibbåna is related to the eight lokuttara cittas which experience it and also to mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå and mahå-kiriyacitta (of the arahat) accompanied by paññå, by way of decisive support-condition of object. The second condition classified under decisive support-condition is proximate decisive support-condition, anantarúpanissaya-paccaya. This condition is similar to proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, see Ch 4). Both conditions pertain to each preceding citta which conditions the succeeding citta without any interval. However, a distinction between these two conditions has to be made. The teaching of proximate decisive support-condition, anantarúpanissaya paccaya, stresses the aspect of powerful inducement of the conditioning force in the relationship between the conditioning reality, the preceding citta, and the conditioned reality, the succeeding citta. We read in the “Visuddhimagga”( XVII, 82) about the difference between the two conditional relations: ... Nevertheless proximity may be understood as the ability to cause the occurrence of an appropriate consciousness arising proximate (next) to itself, and decisive support as the preceding consciousness’s cogency in the arousing of the succeeding consciousnesses.... We then read that there can be the arising of citta without root- condition and other conditions, but that citta cannot arise without being conditioned by the preceding citta. Thus, the preceding citta as conditioning factor is a powerful inducement or cogent reason for the arising of the succeeding citta. -------- 1. There is one type of lokuttara kusala citta and one type of lokuttara vipåkacitta arising in the case of each of the four stages of enlightenment, thus there are eight types of lokuttara citta. ******* Nina. #74153 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:30 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 5, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, In Ch XVI of the “Patisambhidåmagga” we read about “Defining Externally”. The understanding of the “defining” of the external realities is knowledge of the difference in the objects experienced through the different doorways and these are the external åyatanas. Someone who develops understanding of the objects experienced through the six doors does not confuse these objects with one another as they appear through the different doorways. He realizes that these objects are different, arising because of different conditions. Paññå realizes that visible object is different from sound, paññå does not join different realities together as a whole, as the world of persons and things. We read: How does he define dhammas externally? He defines visible objects externally, he defines sounds... odours... flavours... tangible objects... he defines dhammas externally. We read that he considers the conditions for the arising of external realities, namely ignorance and craving. He considers the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå and in the course of the development of paññå clinging to the external objects is abandoned. In Chapter XVI, we read about the understanding of “defining behaviour”, cariya. Cariya, behaviour or conduct is, according to the Commentary, conduct of citta towards the object it experiences. There are three kinds of behaviour: behaviour of consciousness, behaviour of unknowing, and behaviour of knowledge. This is not theory, but it concerns our life all day long. Behaviour of consciousness, citta, includes the cittas which arise in processes and which experience objects through the six doors, except the mind- door adverting- consciousness preceding the javana cittas which can be kusala or akusala, and the javana cittas themselves, since these are classified in the following sections. In the following section in the “Patisambhidåmagga” we read about the “behaviour of unknowing”, which includes the mind-door adverting- consciousness (mano-dvåråvajjana-citta), a kiriyacitta, neither kusala nor akusala [1], and the akusala javana cittas which follow. This reminds us that ignorance is the root of everything which is akusala. We read about cittas with greed for agreeable visible objects, sounds, and the other sense objects, cittas with hate for disagreeable objects. We read about cittas with delusion, with conceit, wrong view, agitation and doubt. All day long there are cittas arising in processes and when they appear they can be objects of right understanding. --------- 1.The citta preceding the javana-cittas in the mind-door process is the mind-door adverting-consciousness, mano-dvåråvajjana-citta, and the citta preceding the javana-cittas in the sense-door process is called “votthapana-citta”, determining-consciousness. It is the mano- dvåråvajjana-citta which performs in the sense-door process the function of votthapana, determining. ******** Nina. #74154 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 5:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Change and Alteration Reference -- "An alteration of that which sta... upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and others) - In a message dated 7/9/07 12:43:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard, Nina, Sarah, Scott, All > > Looking for something else, I came across this reference about the 5 > Aggregates changing and altering. The question regarding > "change/alteration" has > been somewhat in question with some here. > > " The Blessed One then said to the Venerable Ananda as he was sitting to > one > side: > > If, Ananda, they were to ask you: 'Friend Ananda, what are the things of > which an arising WAS discerned, a vanishing WAS discerned, an alteration of > that > which stands WAS discerned? What are the things of which an arising WILL > BE > discerned, a vanishing WILL BE discerned, an alteration of that which > stands > WILL BE discerned? What are the things of which an arising IS discerned, > a > vanishing IS discerned, an alteration of that which stands IS discerned? -- > > being asked that Ananda, how would you answer? > > Venerable sir, if they were to ask me this, I would answer thus: Friends, > with form that has passed, ceased, changed, an arising was discerned, a > vanishing was discerned, an alteration of that which stands was discerned. > With > feeling ... perception ... volitional formations ... consciousness that has > > passed, ceased, changed, an arising was discerned, a vanishing was > discerned, an > alteration of that which stands was discerned. Its is of these things, > friends, that an arising was discerned, that a vanishing was discerned, that > an > alteration of that which stands was discerned." > > TG: In short ... The above is repeated for future and present states. The > > Buddha approves of and repeats the same formula. > > Samyutta Nikaya (Connected Discourses of the Buddha page 881) > > TG: There are many other Suttas that express change in this manner. Not > to > mention those I've posted many times of late describing things as wearing > away, rubbing away, etc. > > TG > ============================ Yes, indeed - alteration and transformation, which, IMO, can also be looked at as (or as reducing to) instantaneous arising and/or ceasing, where by 'instantaneous' I mean at a single (zero-duration) point in time. As I see it, there is no alteration or transformation without instantaneous arising and/or cessation. In fact, I see these two, i.e., (flowing) alteration-transformati on and (momentary) arising-cessation, as different conceptual "takes" on the same reality. The reality, itself, of course, goes on and "does quite well on its own" independently of our conceptual schemes. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74155 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Change and Alteration Reference -- "An alteration of that which sta... TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 7/9/2007 10:28:09 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Yes, indeed - alteration and transformation, which, IMO, can also be looked at as (or as reducing to) instantaneous arising and/or ceasing, where by 'instantaneous' I mean at a single (zero-duration) point in time. As I see it, there is no alteration or transformation without instantaneous arising and/or cessation. In fact, I see these two, i.e., (flowing) alteration-transforand/ on and (momentary) arising-cessation, as different conceptual "takes" on the same reality. The reality, itself, of course, goes on and "does quite well on its own" independently of our conceptual schemes. With metta, Howard .................................... TG: Yes indeed on our conceptual schemes. My whole idea is that the Buddha was just speaking about impermanence, in these cases, just like an ordinary non-Buddhist would understand impermanence. Sorry, I have to exclude Buddhists because we have theorized everyday regular impermanence (wearing away) into oblivion. LOL So much so that the idea is repulsive to many in this group! LOL As I see it, in an ultimate sense, nothing really arises or ceases but just transforms. In a practical sense, we speak of things arising and ceasing and no harm done. In fact, the "practical" strikes at the inspirational/emotional level better and therefore, IMO, is more effective in detaching the mind. TG #74156 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 7/8/2007 5:52:58 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG: Another good one!! Me: What are 'the five aggregates'? NEW TG: Suffering Scott: No, what are they? Its nigh on impossible to pin down an Insubstantialist, especially one who is a 'wise-acre'. .................................... NEWER TG: I'm sorry if you don't like the answer Scott. I'm quite sure the Buddha said the same thing in several places in the Suttas... Things such as -- Its just suffering that arises, its just suffering that ceases. Formerly as well as now, it is just suffering that I teach. Etc. Found one -- "He has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only suffering arising, what ceases is only suffering ceasing." (The Buddha, Samyutta Nikaya, Connected Discourses of the Buddha, page 544.) The Buddha's hard to "pin down" too when it comes to proclaiming "Dhammas as substantive." So I'm in good company. (Please see future post dealing with existence and non-existence.) TG: Conditionally dependent states, whether identified or not; arise, change, and cease due to conditions...(not due to the absence of conditions.) These states are mere "hollow dependencies" (empty of anything 'of their own'), propped up by other conditions which are of the same nature -- conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, nonself. They do indeed occur. TG OUT #74157 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 10:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] delayed letter to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/9/07 10:11:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Due to new pain in the other leg and therapy, I could not write much. > And now the therapist forbids me to sit long at the computer (not > longer than half an hour), to stand or to lie down. What posture is > left: walking. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I'm so sorry to hear of this, Nina. Please follow your therapist's orders and take good care of yourself! -------------------------------------- But the following is about our last outing.> > You wrote to me beforehand to be aware of realities while walking, at > my ease, and I wrote back that I did not plan anything. Due to your > kind concern I was indeed reminded. I thought of what you wrote and I > had to laugh while walking. > -------------------------------------- Howard: And I am smiling - thinking of "prompting". ;-) -------------------------------------- > Lodewijk said that I should tell you this. ------------------------------------- Howard: :-) ------------------------------------- > I also read to him your good post to us about life and death. > Lodewijk was impressed and he said that it is so sincere, kind and > well thought out: H: much to death itself but to the great importance of this life, right > here and now, of living it to its fullest in the best Buddhist sense, > and for sharing love and good will and compassion for all the beings > we encounter. As many of us point out here, at any time it is only > this very moment that we have. Enjoy it, Nina, you and Lodewijk > together. Make it worthwhile, filled with love and the Dhamma, and > without thoughts of death except as a reminder to attend to this > moment all the more.> > > As I said, shortly after 'our disagreement' about that commentary > text (as you know, I do not take this personally;-) ) > ------------------------------------- Howard: Good. Of course there was no personal element involved in what I wrote. ------------------------------------ , someone on > > the Pali list asked me about the difference between Sutta and > Abhidhamma. I quoted this to TG. All this made me reflect more on the > difference between Sutta and Abhidhamma. I also thought of what you > previously said about the five khandhas. Now I do not want to make > any issues, but I only like investigate myself in what way the > Abhidhamma can help us to see things in a very concrete way, not in a > theoretical way. > > First let me highlight a few points from the Expositor. p. 4: Suttanta, the five 'aggregates' are classified partially and not > fully. In the Abhidhamma they are classified fully by the methods of > Suttanta-classification, Abhidhamma-classification and catechism.> > I am thinking of the beginning of the Book of Analysis, the Analysis > of the Aggregates. > Of each of the five khandhas (just as in the Suttas) it is said that > they are past, future, present, etc. After that there is the > Abhidhamma division with all the details. > The first Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, that enumerates > all the cetasikas accompanying the kusala citta that is associated > with pa~n~naa also helps us to understand the khandhas. It is > actually a practical approach to the Dhamma taught by the Buddha. > I remember former discussions about the khandhas being a concept, > although you agree that what they are composed of are not concepts. > I am not inclined to think too much about the fact whether they are > concepts or not. I would rather see the khandhas in relation to the > present moment, now. I think the Abhidhamma can help here. Take for > example confidence in kusala, saddhaa. This is khandha, it can be > said that it is past, future and present. It arises and falls away. > When we study the teachings and reflect on it, correspond on it, > there is saddhaa. There is a degree of alobha, we do not cling to > our own confort or to any fun like T.V. Alobha is khandha. > There is adosa (I hope!), no aversion about the other's views. Adosa > is khandha. All these cetasikas are realities, each with their own > characteristics. Many of them are also mentioned in the Sutta, but in > the Abhidhamma they are fully classified. > Expositor p. 14, is about the 'ocean of method', the three Pi.takas. > Infinite rapture and joy arises in reflecting on the Vinaya and Sutta. > And as to the Abhidhamma: Abhidhamma, experience infinite rapturous joy in reflecting. As > though grouping the multitude of stars in the sky (into > constellations), the Teacher taught things mental and material, > dividing them into various parts and portions-- things subtle and > abstruse such as the unique content of aggregates, sense-organs, > elements, controlling faculties, powers, factors of wisdom, kamma and > its result; and the distinction between mind and matter...> > The distinction between nama and rupa is emphasized: this is realized > from the first stage of tender insight on. I find it very meaningful > that the Abhidhamma points to this. It is the practice of vipassana. > On p. 26 of the Expositor, the three parts of the Tipitaka are > compared again. Respectively they are: serious restraint, of the refutation of heretical views, and of the > distinction between mind and matter. > > Again: nama and rupa. > After that comes the text you did not appreciate, but perhaps we > talked about that enough already. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. ;-) But just to reiterate, my objection was only to that specific text, and not to Abhidhamma or commentary in general, certainly not. ----------------------------------------- > My computer time is up. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Good! I'm pleased that you are "behaving" yourself! ;-)) ---------------------------------------- > Nina. ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74158 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 10:17 am Subject: "All exists, Kaccana, this is one extreme..." TGrand458@... Hi All "'All exists': Kaccana, this is one extreme. 'All does not exist': this is the second extreme. Without veering toward either of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle:..." (The Buddha, Samyutta Nikaya, Connected Discourse of the Buddha, page 544.) "How is it Master Gotama: Does all exist?" "'All exists': this, brahmin, is one extreme." "Then Master Gotama, does all not exist?" "'All does not exist, brahmin, this is the second extreme. Without veering toward either of these extremes..." (The Buddha, Samyutta Nikaya, Connected Discourses of the Buddha, page 584 And from the same page (different Sutta) as above... "'All exists': this, brahmin, is the oldest cosmology." ... "'All does not exist': this, brahmin, is the second cosmology." ... "Without veering toward either of these extremes..." All these Suttas go on to state the Dependent Origination chain. Since the topic in none of these Suttas has anything to do with concepts, the questioneers appear to be trying to get the Buddha to express an ontological position regarding phenomena. This is even more clear in the last Sutta where a "Cosmologist" is asking the questions. Provisionally, the Buddha will speak about conditions existing (at least that's the way BB translates it. Perhaps..."manifesting" would be more appropriate?) But when the question is actually directly dealing with the issue of existence in an ultimate sense, the Buddha says such a view is too extreme. That's my take anyway. TG #74159 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 7:00 am Subject: Re: A Siila Perspective ksheri3 Good Morning Andrew, So, you never heard of the "RUN-ON-SENTENCE"? Lets put it together then, shall we? We have this thing called THE WHEEL OF LIFE and it is comprised of BIRTH, LIFE, and DEATH. Along comes a drug dependent that needs assurances that tomorrow will come therefore he asks for money today that he will gladly pay back tomorrow. Although in today's society we find this on the Sunday line-up programming of the media we used to only be peppered with such chanagins while in the church of ORGANIZATION aka Organized Religion, Organized Crime, etc. and so the drug dependents can certainly be seen and felt throughout our existance. They preach RE-INCARNATION which is RESULTANT from the CAUSE of KARMA. While I make light of Re-Incarnation and of Karma I certainly believe that these are a factor in our existance. I don't even chuckle any longer at the threats from the pulpit of slavery found in Western Theological traditions, the slavery of HELL when it is this HELL that they are so fixated on that they are creating on this planet at this very moment. Life is hard enough and I don't need some alcoholic ("a drunkard wants another drink of beer and a politician wants a vote" Charlie Daniels Band) nor any other drug dependent coming along and asking me if I'd like to fight a war for them so that they can sit in their nice cushy chair while masturbating. the Tibetan Book of the Dead, I don't have my notes handy so allow me some band-width here to manuever, clearly states that the soul of the departed needs guidance on it's journey through the nether regions so as to gain the benefits of the 8-Fold Path to Enlightenment, Liberation. The Tibetan Monks chant over the dead body for many a day. Since this is a new form of asking this type of question it'll take me a few days to incorporate it into the other theologies around the world and I know that it does have many similar connections to other religions and theologies, particularly Quantum Physics, String- Theory, etc. As for a specific sutta I don't know of any but my knowledge of Buddhism isn't that great since I've only formally studied it for about four yrs. now. Suffice it to say that we are in contact with the past and the future. -------------------------------------------------- > > Andrew: Nice advice. Although I'm not sure I understand how the > living can affect the path progress of the dead. Is there a sutta > about that? > > > A crafty one you seem to be tonight KH. Ever practice in the Wiccan > > community? > > Andrew: I'd like to hear your answer to this question, too, Ken. > colette: I was being facetious, spelling unknown, adding somewhat of a rhetorical question. If Ken H. practices or has practiced Wicca that is not a "Need-To-Know" thing, he simply made comments that directly associated themselves with Wicca and I happened to notice them. -------------------------------------------- > Andrew: I do agree with Ken here - Nina does write clearly with many > reminders that conventional terms have another level of meaning. I > think the issue is not so much the writers but the limitations of > language itself. colette: "Variety is the Spice of New Orleans" ------------------------- Direct knowing is beyond language but, if Ken is > right, the early way towards direct knowing necessarily involves > language ("hearing the true Dhamma" etc.) colette: so you have read the Tibetan Book of the Dead. Watch this: As has been done since time immemoral, I can't remember how far back it goes, there has been theories that it is not the words themselves that unlock the magik, the mystical powers that be, but is the tone, the resonation of the word itself as a string played on an instrument. As far as I can tell, KS > herself has no aversion to language colette: who, may I ask, is this KS herself? - pannatti has a vital role in > the passing of meaning (or the arising of understanding). As you > rightly point out, we all develop our own (language-using) learning > techniques. > > > colette: Watch out Andrew, he's gotcha here but now he's gotta > stick > > with it since he's labeled himself. Sarcasm included. Labeling is > one > > trait that is VERY DIFFICULT TO OVERCOME, I tend to hide my > labeling > > characteristics within the sarcasm, the dribble, the non-sense, I > lay > > out trying to bring levity to the bad characteristic and to show > how > > trivial labeling is/can be. > > Andrew: Agreed! A bad or wrong label is blinding. For many years, I > labelled Abhidhamma "a valley of dry bones" and never went there. > Glad to hear you didn't make the same mistake! colette: but I did. I wouldn't ever have known of persistance in studying "The Mysteries" if I had other things to do; never have known the continuity of it all, the continuousness of reality, etc. It is only because I accepted it, at the time, that I learned about it and perservered through the dessert whether that dessert be Death VAlley or the Sahara or the Gobi, it's all nothing more than a dessert. The second I began reading the Abhidhamma I found that the past was the present, in a sense of the concept. toodles, colette #74160 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 4:25 pm Subject: Re: e-card from Bangkok 6 kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Thanks for the further claification: ----- S: > Detachment from the beginning means detachment from wrong view. Lobha doesn't let go of wrong view that 'I can do something'. ----- I like that. From the very beginning the important point to remember is that the Dhamma is about dhammas; it is not about self. Unless we realise that, our Dhamma joyage has not yet begun. Ken H #74161 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 5:47 pm Subject: Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas philofillet Hi Ken and all I' ve?@been thinking now and then about what you wrote below. > I think you want to encourage beginners, but there is a right way and > a wrong way of doing it. We certainly shouldn't be kidding them that > their clumsy first steps are the way taught by the Buddha. I realized that it was a post on this very subject that prompted my retreat from the depths I was prematurely trying to fathom. (i,e retreat from Acharn Sujin's approach.) Do you remember about...oh, I don't know, was it a year ago?..Matheesha posted asking what books we would recommend for beginners. Your answer to him about no point unless we may it clear to beginners that there are only dhammas or something like that - it was so extreme that it woke me up, I think. Pushing a teaching of "only dhammas" on beginners is certainly not the "right way" you mention above. I grant that many popular approaches are probably not the right way either. Somewhere in between. The Buddha *did not* proceed direcly to his deepest teachings. Nobody who studies the texts could insist on that. He started with teachings on dana and sila in order to prepare the mind (or in order to be able to see for himself that the mind was ready?) for the deepest teachings. That would seem utterly clear to anyone who only studied the suttanta (and commentarial notes), but since it is so utterly clear I'm sure it has been brought up many times here, and therefore there will be a practiced AS-ish response coming from you. That's fine. It won't take away my confidence that proceeding straight to the deepest teachings is *not* the way to go, nor will it take away an iota of my revitalized interest in the way the Dhamma, when properly taught by teachers with understanding of people's needs, can - in the beginning - help people deal with aspects of their lives that are grossly out of order because of the way their worst tendencies are running unchecked. And by doing so prepare the ground for the deeper understanding. This *is* the Buddha's way - not so easy for modern teachers to teach properly, but they are at least going in the right direction when they acknowledge that the Dhamma is to be taught to different people in different ways according to their different inclinations and needs. It doesn't really matter what AS teaches because her audience is limited - the important thing for me is to pay attention to (and share) the way teachers are effectively teaching beginners in a way that leads them into the gates of Dhamma, where there may be conditions for them to go deeper. (And even if they don't go deeper, there will still be benefits on the surface that surpass any of the self help books, I think.) So I hope that on my return from Canada I will be posting more about what I think are helpful teachings rather than griping about unhelpful teachings. Of course my posts about helpful teachings will oblige me to defend them - I guess participation at DSG will inevitably mean discussing AS' teaching. When I was one of her students and James was griping, I asked him why he didn't just leave the group and discuss Dhamma elsewhere? I guess I should continue asking myself the same question and continue looking elsewhere because life is short - how much more of it do I want to spend attacking other people's teacher, especially at a forum that was established under her influence? It might just come down to having good manners. OK, talk to you all again in a few weeks - probably! :) Metta, Phil #74162 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 5:52 pm Subject: Re: delayed letter to Howard. philofillet Hi Nina Very sorry to hear you've been suffering through this. As you know, I've lost touch with your and Acharn Sujin's approach to Dhamma, but I haven't lost touch with admiration for the way you so diligently strive to help others understand Dhamma. Please take care, and as Howard said, listen to your therapist (and Lodewijk.) Thanks again for all you have done to try to help me, though it came to fall on deaf ears. You know, if people don't have conditions to understand, they won't understand no matter how clear the teacher is so I hope I haven't caused you any undue frustration. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > Due to new pain in the other leg and therapy, I could not write much. > And now the therapist forbids me to sit long at the computer (not > longer than half an hour), to stand or to lie down. What posture is > left: walking. #74163 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 6:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: NEWER TG: "I'm sorry if you don't like the answer Scott. I'm quite sure the Buddha said the same thing in several places in the Suttas... 'He has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only suffering arising, what ceases is only suffering ceasing.' (The Buddha, Samyutta Nikaya, Connected Discourses of the Buddha, page 544.) Scott: The answer is fine, TG. Nothing to like or not to like. The view seems to prefer a literal interpretation of statements such as above. 'Suffering' = what arises; 'Suffering' = what ceases; therefore there is only 'suffering', nothing else exists. I've heard this before [;)]: "Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields. Nothing is real. And nothing to get hung about. Strawberry Fields Forever," John Lennon. 'Suffering' is treated as if it itself is an actuality - some sort of overarching one - which replaces all others, or in which all others somehow participate. Is the next step to link this somehow to some meta-consciousness? Or to Nibbaana? Isn't dukkha one of the ti-lakhana? Isn't dukkha one of the characteristics of all conditioned dhammas? Isn't dukkha dependent on anicca, that is, isn't the fact of impermanence that which gives the characteristic of dukkha to dhammas? And what about anatta? Why the insistence on the non-identification of things which have the above characteristics? The ti-lakhana are not things in and of themselves. They are the characteristics of things. Things exist. TG: "Conditionally dependent states, whether identified or not; arise, change, and cease due to conditions...(not due to the absence of conditions.) These states are mere "hollow dependencies" (empty of anything 'of their own'), propped up by other conditions which are of the same nature -- conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, nonself. They do indeed occur." Scott: Why is it undesirable to allow for an identification of 'states'? The view continues to be one of insubstantiality. To what end? Why is it important not to commit to the reality of anything? Sincerely, Scott. #74164 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 8:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& James), --- Phil wrote: >....So I hope that on my return from Canada I will be posting more > about what I think are helpful teachings rather than griping about > unhelpful teachings. .... S: Do both, no problem! We're just discussing Dhamma or dhammas- it's not personal. It's good to question what we read and hear! Yes, I'd like to see any quotes or extracts from talks you find helpful. If you're listening to them on the flight, maybe you can make a few notes to share with us. .... >Of course my posts about helpful teachings will > oblige me to defend them - I guess participation at DSG will inevitably > mean discussing AS' teaching. .... S: Again, she'd say it's not her teaching, but the Buddha's. Others would say the same, so let's discuss what is said and what the Buddha taught to find out for ourselves! .... >When I was one of her students and James > was griping, I asked him why he didn't just leave the group and discuss > Dhamma elsewhere? I guess I should continue asking myself the same > question and continue looking elsewhere because life is short - how > much more of it do I want to spend attacking other people's teacher, > especially at a forum that was established under her influence? It > might just come down to having good manners. ... S: I'm glad James 'hung around' and I'm glad you do too. I don't see 'disagreements' here as being bad manners at all. Of course, if it was an 'attack' on a person's character, that would be!! Have a good trip to Canada, Phil. If you have time and computer access, do drop us the occasional e-card of any reflections in a Canadian setting. Hope your parents are doing OK with your mother's condition. Look forward to further disagreements on your return:). Metta, Sarah ======= #74165 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:22 pm Subject: Re: Repetitive, vigorous verbs in suttas kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Ken and all > > I've been thinking now and then about what you wrote below. > > > > I think you want to encourage beginners, but there is a right way and > > a wrong way of doing it. We certainly shouldn't be kidding them that > > their clumsy first steps are the way taught by the Buddha. > > > I realized that it was a post on this very subject that prompted my > retreat from the depths I was prematurely trying to fathom. (i,e > retreat from Acharn Sujin's approach.) Do you remember about...oh, I > don't know, was it a year ago?..Matheesha posted asking what books we > would recommend for beginners. Hi Phil, Yes, I remember it well. And I remember that you were less than impressed. ------------------------ Ph: > Your answer to him about no point unless we may it clear to beginners that there are only dhammas or something like that - it was so extreme that it woke me up, I think. Pushing a teaching of "only dhammas" on beginners is certainly not the "right way" you mention above. I grant that many popular approaches are probably not the right way either. Somewhere in between. ------------------------ This is a good topic. What a pity you are off to Canada! I think the Buddha taught either the true Dhamma or nothing at all. Some of those he considered fit to teach would not have understood very much, but they would never have been given an untrue, kiddies' version. You might recall something that Sarah said recently about K Sujin. (I hope I get this right:) Apparently, KS will sometimes tell people something they cannot understand or don't want to hear. And it will make sense to them later. I can't think of any examples, but I have benefited from that sort of thing from time to time. Something I have heard long ago - either here or on the recorded talks - will suddenly make sense to me. I am sure the Buddha would have taught in the same way when the occasion called for it. He certainly would not have taught a non- anatta view of the world. That is not the way out, so why would a Buddha teach it? He taught dana, sila and bhavana (do good, avoid evil and purify the mind). He would never have taught just dana or sila without bhavana. I am sure of it. ------------------------------------ Ph: > The Buddha *did not* proceed direcly to his deepest teachings. Nobody who studies the texts could insist on that. He started with teachings on dana and sila in order to prepare the mind (or in order to be able to see for himself that the mind was ready?) for the deepest teachings. ------------------------------------ Rather than have wrong understanding, wouldn't it be better to know that right understanding was currently beyond our capacity? And wouldn't that then become our right understanding? --------------------------------------------- Ph: > That would seem utterly clear to anyone who only studied the suttanta (and commentarial notes), but since it is so utterly clear I'm sure it has been brought up many times here, and therefore there will be a practiced AS-ish response coming from you. That's fine. It won't take away my confidence that proceeding straight to the deepest teachings is *not* the way to go, nor will it take away an iota of my revitalized interest in the way the Dhamma, when properly taught by teachers with understanding of people's needs, can - in the beginning - help people deal with aspects of their lives that are grossly out of order because of the way their worst tendencies are running unchecked. And by doing so prepare the ground for the deeper understanding. This *is* the Buddha's way - not so easy for modern teachers to teach properly, but they are at least going in the right direction when they acknowledge that the Dhamma is to be taught to different people in different ways according to their different inclinations and needs. ----------------------------------------------- There is only one Dhamma. We can understand it to varying degrees, but the Dhamma remains the same. ------------------- Ph: > It doesn't really matter what AS teaches because her audience is limited - the important thing for me is to pay attention to (and share) the way teachers are effectively teaching beginners in a way that leads them into the gates of Dhamma, where there may be conditions for them to go deeper. ------------------- It doesn't work that way. Even if we study a wrong (pseudo) Dhamma for a hundred years we will still be no closer to the true Dhamma. ---------------------------- Ph: > (And even if they don't go deeper, there will still be benefits on the surface that surpass any of the self help books, I think.) So I hope that on my return from Canada I will be posting more about what I think are helpful teachings rather than griping about unhelpful teachings. Of course my posts about helpful teachings will oblige me to defend them - I guess participation at DSG will inevitably mean discussing AS' teaching. When I was one of her students and James was griping, I asked him why he didn't just leave the group and discuss Dhamma elsewhere? I guess I should continue asking myself the same question and continue looking elsewhere because life is short - how much more of it do I want to spend attacking other people's teacher, especially at a forum that was established under her influence? It might just come down to having good manners. ------------------------------ Don't worry about us, Phil. As you will have noticed, contrary views are great fodder for Dhamma discussion. Even rudeness, on the rare occasion that it happens, is good practice for seeing that there are only conditioned dhammas - no rude person. --------------------------------------- Ph: > OK, talk to you all again in a few weeks - probably! :) --------------------------------------- Good! I hope your baseball team is illuminated before the finals and you have nothing to do but come back to DSG. (Only joking, of course.) :-) Ken H #74166 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 5:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 7/9/2007 7:09:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: 'Suffering' = what arises; 'Suffering' = what ceases; therefore there is only 'suffering', nothing else exists. I've heard this before [;)]: "Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields. Nothing is real. And nothing to get hung about. Strawberry Fields Forever," John Lennon. ........................... NEW TG: Never mind. ................................. 'Suffering' is treated as if it itself is an actuality - some sort of overarching one - which replaces all others, or in which all others somehow participate. Is the next step to link this somehow to some meta-consciousness? Or to Nibbaana? Isn't dukkha one of the ti-lakhana? Isn't dukkha one of the characteristics of all conditioned dhammas? Isn't dukkha dependent on anicca, that is, isn't the fact of impermanence that which gives the characteristic of dukkha to dhammas? And what about anatta? Why the insistence on the non-identification of things which have the above characteristics? ................................... NEW TG: Identifying elements and aggregates is just fine. I haven't heard anyone speak of non-identification except in the latter stages of insight. I identify them, I just don't identify them as you do. ........................... The ti-lakhana are not things in and of themselves. ................................. NEW TG: I think that's a big part of the whole point. The Buddha isn't interesting in identifying things as -- "Things in and of themselves." He just identifies them to the extent necessary to see that what arises is unsatisfactory and to help minds detach and become free of affliction. Repeatedly in the suttas the Buddha says that -- "seeing things as they really are" = seeing them as impermanent, suffering, nonself. ............................................ They are the characteristics of things. Things exist. ............................................. NEW TG: So you say. I'll go as far as saying -- there is the manifestation of experiences and phenomena that support experiences. The nature of this phenomena is conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, nonself. I cannot support a theory of a "constellation of particulate Dhammas" that are "existent ultimate realities with their own characteristics." Way too much baggage for me to carry. ........................................... TG: "Conditionally dependent states, whether identified or not; arise, change, and cease due to conditions..arise, change, and cease due of conditions.) These states are mere "hollow dependencies" (empty of anything 'of their own'), propped up by other conditions which are of the same nature -- conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, nonself. They do indeed occur." Scott: Why is it undesirable to allow for an identification of 'states'? The view continues to be one of insubstantiality. To what end? Why is it important not to commit to the reality of anything? .................................................. NEW TG: 1) Already addressed the "identification" issue above. 2) Insubstantiality? Oh yes...the Buddha's description. Well, that's a good reason to stick with it. 3 & 4) I'll say it again...by seeing "Dhammas" as ultimate realities with their own characteristics ... one (mentally) turns "Dhammas" into entities or at least "pseudo-entities" whether one realizes it or not, IMO. IMO, this is a poor platform to use for detaching the mind. Such a process gives "dhammas" a firm and substantial foundation and structure in the mind. To use an analogy... When the goal is to tear down the house, I don't think we want to be bolstering its strength at the same time. TG OUT #74167 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:37 pm Subject: Re: what is sati sukinderpal Hi Robert, I am not sure if you expected any response, but I wanted to write, just not been able to find the time to do so. ================= Robert: Judging by your last reply I don't think we will be agreeing with each other this lifetime: S> It is hard not read without judgment and a corresponding desire to influence the other. And I think this makes it harder to appreciate the other's perspective, let alone come to agree. But metta can arise from time to time and actually, who knows what other reality will arise when? ;-) ================= Sukinder: The factors for Stream Entry (and other ariyan levels btw) are, hearing the Dhamma; association with the wise; wise reflection; and practice in accordance with the dhamma, i.e. satipatthana. Robert A: In the first place, I don't really worry about Stream Entry or other goals of practice. I do the practice that I do simply because I think it is the right way to live my life. S> But there is something about the Dhamma to which you are attracted and not found in any other teachings, isn't it? Could that be something related to the development of understanding of the way things are? The significance of the "factors for Stream Entry" is not that one aims to achieve that state, but a question of the "right" direction being taken, I think. ================== Robert: In the second place, you already know that I believe there is so much more to the Buddha's teachings that what you listed above. You know I believe that generousity, virtue, patience, and meditation are all part of the path and would be on my list as practices, whereas you only list satipatthana as practice according to the Dhamma. So, we disagree completely and absolutely and I don't think we are going to change each other's view. S> Yes they are part of the Path (except `meditation'). The Paramis in particular are indispensable. But all kusala, no matter how otherwise great, are of little value if not informed by panna of the level of satipatthana / vipassana. As mentioned in another thread, all dhammas kusala and akusala which is not the N8FP, is considered to be the "wrong" path. Should it then be seen as a problem, that one gives great importance to Satipatthana? Besides, what after all is meant by the Eightfold Path being the `One Path'? I think it is due to a mistaken view about the Path, that many have the impression that stressing satipatthana means less interest in other forms of kusala. Perhaps this is from believing that the N8FP are factors to be developed separately, in which case Right Mindfulness is seen as corresponding to Satipatthana? Anyway, I would say the opposite is more likely, since through the eye of satipatthana, kusala becomes less obscured by `self' in any form. Only the "drama" previously fueled by tanha, mana and ditthi, is taken out of the picture. And so it seems to those still taken in by such stories centered on `self' that this particular approach appears tending toward overlooking other forms of kusala. But consider Nina's writings. Do you see anywhere within Buddhist circles, so many reminders about the development of all kinds of kusala in daily life? Only her writing is not charged with any sense of `self' needing to be proactive about the whole thing. Other authors, in being more or less idealistic about their views, impress upon me as being not as down to earth, let alone having a correct view about the Path. Standing out in all their `talk' about what should and should not be done, is "wrong view"! ==================== Robert A: When you are writing a post to this group, don't you sometimes stop and reword something to make it less harsh perhaps and more courteous? S> Yes I do. ==================== Robert: If I have a lack of appreciation of the conditioned and momentary nature of dhammas, perhaps you have a lack of appreciation for the meaningful things you can do here and now to change the experience of your own life and the lives of those with whom you come in contact, meaningful and proactive things. This seems so obvious to me and so obscure to you, so we just don't see things in the same light. S> Again I'll say, if there were real appreciation of satipatthana, such a question won't even arise. Let alone any conflict between the development of kusala of other kinds and Satipatthana, the latter in fact helps to "purify" all forms of the former. The self-referential stories are not so dramatic; however the affect in terms of `conditioning' is far more positive. Perhaps you have experienced moments of what seems like "letting go" of kusala when you realized that it was just another reality? If so, did it not feel "right"? ================= Robert A: My so-called intentions? When I am angry, I see that I want to say something harsh, but I go ahead and do it, I do not practice restraint. There is nothing so-called about my intentions. I was angry, I wanted to cause hurt because of that anger, and I did it. It matters. S> But dhammas do arise and fall in an instant and there is no reason to believe that any anger is going to lead to what we *think* it would. If enough sati and panna has been accumulated and arises to `know' the anger, those stories would be seen for what they are. In the meantime there can be a level of correct intellectual understanding, and this already makes a big difference in how experiences are viewed. If however you continue to believe in your "problem / solution" stories, then it just becomes sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. It would almost seem like you allow yourself to be angry just so that you could then be' the one who restrains'. So really, what *is* the intention? I know this is presuming, but I just want to make a point which may at some level apply. Hope you don't mind. ;-) ================= Robert: Nothing that you say is going to convince me that it does not. When was the last time you did something harmful? Could you have seen that intention and chosen not to act out that intention, but you did act it out anyway? Couldn't you have practiced restraint instead? S> Restraint arises or it does not, this happens by conditions, before or after hearing the Dhamma. After developing some understanding of the Teachings however, restraint on its own is seen as being of little value compared to "understanding". This understanding can arise at any moment, sometimes giving rise to stories about the `particular situation', closer to "reality" than otherwise. For example, even if I went ahead and acted upon my whim, this can be seen as `conditioned', and already such acting out may be very slight. On the other hand, if I succeed in restraining myself without understanding, how should I know if whether other forms of akusala, particularly self-view was not involved in the process? ================== Robert: Wouldn't this be practice? Why is restraint not on your list above? S> Sila is excellent dhamma and I fully encourage it, even if this is unaccompanied by panna. But Sila alone does nothing to reduce ignorance; in fact there is also the danger of silabattaparamasa, hence the need for Satipatthana. And of course Sila is also a Parami, but as with all the other paramis, this needs to be accompanied by wisdom. ================== Robert: What about guarding the sense doors? S> What about this in the true sense of what it actually means? "Guarding the sense doors" is being mindful of the reality of sense experience *before* any akusala arises in relation to the object. And this is exactly, Satipatthana!! ================== Robert: If you guard the sense doors, doesn't this have an effect on how you live your life? Isn't this practice? Why is guarding the sense doors not on your list above as practice? S> I suspect that what you mean by `guarding the sense doors', is not allowing the `thoughts' to build upon an initial thought. I think `the practice' would be more like knowing `thinking as thinking', rather than a matter of shifting attention from one concept to another. ================== Robert: If someone harms you and you choose not to respond, isn't this the practice of patience and isn't it something that matters? Why isn't the practice of patience on your list above as practice? S> Patience is one of my weaker points, actually I'm weak in everything kusala. And admittedly I would be satisfied much of the time just to have any kind of patience, even those that may be something other than. But I do find it more valuable to come to learn about and determine what in the ultimate sense, true patience is and does. And this is possible only through satipatthana. ;-) ================== Robert: My friend, we will have to let this one go. You and I will never agree, as I will never agree with Sarah, Ken, and all the other devotees of Khun Sujin at DSG, but I have great respect and appreciation for the learning and dedication to that learning you all show. I can appreciate your opinions because I don't happen to believe that Buddhism has a catechism or a creed. I believe there are many useful paths to follow under the umbrella of Buddhism. S> Ultimately the Buddha's Teachings is meant to lead one out of ignorance. Some interpretations of Dhamma do not in my opinion point to this happening, now or in the long run. But of course one can't argue with subjective experiences, it all depends on the accumulated paramis, including `truthfulness'. And if this hasn't been accumulated enough to really accept / understand the correct interpretation, being one that necessarily goes against the stream, then I ought to be satisfied with whatever little others may benefit from the Teachings. But let us not forget the very reason for the Buddha to have become one, namely to lead beings out of ignorance by realization of the 4NT. =================== Robert: In the time I have been posting here I have enjoyed it very much, but now I find myself repeating the same thing over and over again, so I think I have run out of useful things to say here. I wish you well with your practice, however you chose to define it. I know you are sincere and am sure you will progress on the path. S> No expectations of what may arise. And not to underestimate the power of repetition. ;-) I wish you well too with whatever you are involved in. Metta, Sukinder #74168 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 9, 2007 10:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& TG), I liked your comments in #73860, further on MN112 on 'mental standpoints', i.e upadana. I think the gist of the quote is the same as your quote in the Sammaditthi corner, #73838, i.e the 4NT. --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: This is a helpful clarification. It is correct to suggest that > it is the clinging to views that is the problem. ... S: Particularly the clinging with wrong view, that's the problem. ... >The view, "...[t]he > Buddha, on the other hand, prescribes to break down and eject such > standpoints..." is a polemical statement expressing a view that there > is something problematic with a consideration of paramattha dhammas; > this is a view taken against a view. This misses the point of the > sutta. ... S: Yes. The sutta is pointing out that the clinging (and wrong view) is with regard to such dhammas. ... >In reading the sutta, the Buddha takes no such stand vis-a-vis > paramattha dhammas. In fact he lists them exhaustively. The sutta > points out the problem with clinging to anything, including views. > There is right view and there is wrong view. Clinging to right view > is a problem. The fact that clinging to the view is a problem says > nothing about the rightness or wrongness of the view. .... S: Usually, if clinging to a view is mentioned, it is wrong view which is implied. Of course, there can still be clinging to right view! Metta, Sarah ======= #74169 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:01 am Subject: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [7] sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Ramesh & all, [Discussion continued on the boat going out to sea...] ***** KS She (K. Sujit, KS's sister) would like to know where he is now, up or down....(laughing) Sujit: Just tell me! Up! J: It depends on those last few moments... Sujit: Because he was with his mother and singing... KS: Singing is lobha... S: You're not a kind sister! (laughing) KS: I'd like her know the truth! Right is right, wrong is wrong. Kusala is akusala, akusala is akusala. S: But it doesn't give her any comfort. KS: Why? Truth is the best comfort S: I think she'd be happier if you said 'certainly he must be....' KS: No, I cannot say that because I cannot see him now... S: It seems terrible that so much depends on those last few moments. If by bad fortune one is singing then instead of considering dhamma.... So much depends on those last few moments. J: The last few moments depend so much on what has gone before. KS: It depends so much on one kamma only that will be the one that should condition rebirth-consciousness. S: Doesn't it seem terrible to you that it depends so much on one kamma? KS: But all kammas are anatta as well. When we think or understand in terms of anatta, it's so just that no one can think of how unjust it is. S: These moments - such significance... KS: By kamma, not by one's will. It's like hearing now. It depends on your kamma. It doesn't depend on (how) you'd like to hear that sound over there or this sound here, but as long as there are ears and conditions for hearing to arise.... S: This isn't so significant... KS: But how do you know that it's not significant because it's conditioned by kamma that can condition rebirth-consciousness. We cannot get away from all the kammas we have done before. J: It may be from many, many lives previously. It may be a seed from before, but the time has come for ripening. So when you say 'the last few moments', it's a lot more. KS: Right. It's conditioned by the kamma. It depends on the ripening of that particular kamma which will be the one which will condition rebirth-consciousness. S: Isn't is just speculation at this moment, because we don't know it. We know now that kamma brings result, but we don't know about (what kamma conditioned) this particular moment. KS: Right. As you cannot know the kamma which conditioned hearing at this moment and the next moment, so before death you cannot know what conditioned the moments before death. If you can tell this moment of hearing what kamma you have done (in)this life or (an)other life, then you can tell what the moments before death come from. S: Sometimes it's hard to have confidence that the first moment of next life must be like this moment, another reality resulting from kamma. KS: You know if there is no direct experience of the arising and falling away of realities at this moment, there cannot be complete confidence. S: Must be speculation. KS: Right. S: Why if there is understanding at this moment of the arising and falling away of realities, can there not be any doubt about the first moments of next life? Must there be complete confidence? KS: There is no conventional belief anymore that there is someone or some person, because only a moment of citta arises and falls away. So through one's whole life or previous life or future life, it has to be like this. **** Metta, Sarah ======= #74170 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) sarahprocter... Hi Larry (& Phil), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I'm not sure, but I think Phil's question was something like, "are all > wrong views included in the wrong view of the eightfold path, or just > the ones listed in MN 117, for example,?" In other words, can one > practice the eightfold path with self view? .... S: I thought that Phil was indicating that most the wrong views mentioned in the suttas do not refer to self-view. I gave a sutta quote to indicate that without self-view, there are no other wrong views. ... > I am inclined to say no, one cannot practice the eightfold path with > self view. ... S: Well I'm inclined to say that 'no one can practice the eightfold path', period. The dhammas of the eightfold path arise by conditions. Certainly, no self-view when the factors arise. (Strictly speaking, the eightfold path refers to the lokuttara cittas, so no more wrong view of any kind. If we're referring to the mundane path factors, wrong view/self-view can arise at different moments before it's been eradicated. .... >It seems to me that, generally speaking, mundane right view > is basically confidence or faith (saddhaa) in the Buddha, dhamma and > sangha. ... S: Right understanding of the nama or rupa appearing now. This leads to such firm confidence. ... >According to abhidhamma this only arises as kusala cetasika. > Therefore, no self view. One might say that the eightfold path is > exclusively kusala citta. So no self view. ... S: Yes. (Here referring to mundane path factors). ... > However, that is not to say that self view must be eradicated in order > to follow it. So there is some back and forth between kusala and > akusala, being on the right path and being on the wrong path. ... S: Right. This is why the Buddha taught a wrong path as well. Rather than referrring to following a path or being on a path, I prefer to think of the path factors as arising. Otherwise, it's easy to think in terms of a self doing this or that again, don't you think? Thx for you helpful comments. Metta, Sarah ======== #74171 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) sarahprocter... Dear Antony & all, --- Antony Woods wrote: > Majjhima 131: > "And how is one taken in with regard to present qualities? > There is the case where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person > who has not seen the noble ones, > is not versed in the teachings of the noble ones, > is not trained in the teachings of the noble ones, > sees form as self, > or self as possessing form, > or form as in self, > or self as in form. <...> > This is called being taken in with regard to present qualities. > > "And how is one not taken in with regard to present qualities? There > is the case where a disciple of the noble ones who has seen the noble > ones, is versed in the teachings of the noble ones, is well-trained in > the teachings of the noble ones, does not see form as self, or self as > possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. <..> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.131.than.html > http://www.suttareadings.net/audio/index.html#mn.131 ... S: Great quote in your post#73855. This clearly points to the importance of understanding the danger of self-view. Otherwise, one is always 'taken in'. ... > When I first listened to the audio I thought it was boring, but now I > laugh when I appreciate that there aren't any loopholes left after the > Buddha has covered all the possible combinations! .... S: Exactly! A good way of putting it. No loopholes at all. No way to avoid understanding namas and rupas as anatta. Please quote any other relevant suttas anytime. You have a nice way of presenting them, Antony. Metta, Sarah ======= #74172 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: >A story: I have a lot of pain in > my leg when walking. Paramattha dhammas: there are mere dhammas, such > as vipaakacittas produced by kamma and akusala cittas with dosa which > think about my pain. They all fall away immediately, they are not self. > Smiling when at a funeral. I admit, very hard when it would be > Lodewijk's funeral. A situation versus nama elements and rupa > elements that arise and fall away immediately. .... S: Yes, nama elements and rupa elements. Of course, we never know how we may respond (or rather what dhammas may arise) in future and no use in speculating, I think. We imagine we won't be smiling because of the pain in the leg or because of our grief, but then we have consideration for others around us and find we are smiling after all. In any case, whatever arises is conditioned and can be known as it is, not me or them. ... > There is sorrow, only nama, non-self. There is seeing, nama, non- > self. When we learn to see events as nama and rupa it means also that > we learn to see them as non-self. > Someone shouts at me. An event, a story. There is no he and me. I am > inclined to think in that way and that is conceit. Conceit is a nama, > non-self. Hearing is a nama, non-self. Sound is a rupa, non-self. The > whole world is broken down into elements that do not last for a > moment. Where are the entities, where is substantialism? ... S: Well said. Understanding paramattha dhammas is the only way to eradicate ideas of substantialism. Sorry to hear about the pain you're experiencing, Nina. I wish you a good recovery. Metta, Sarah ====== #74173 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hmmmm.... jonoabb Hi Dan Nice to see you again. Dan D. wrote: > Deitrich Bonhoeffer wrote: "At the end of a life spent in the pursuit > of knowledge Faust has to confess: 'I now do see that we can nothing > know.' That is the answer to a sum; it is the outcome of a long > experience. But as Kierkegaard observed, it is quite a different thing > when a freshman comes up to the university and uses the same sentiment > to justify his indolence. As the answer to a sum it is perfectly true, > but as the initial data it is a piece of self-deception." > > Is the KS and DSG skepticism toward meditation, goals, directed > training, etc. a similar answer to a sum? The answer only makes sense > after a long and arduous road of effort to determine for oneself > through practice which Efforts are Right and which are Wrong. > I could agree with the analogy in the sense of the Buddha coming up with the 'answer to a sum' after spending many lifetimes in the pursuit of knowledge. We are then urged to adopt that answer, to the extent we are capable of verifying it for ourselves, rather than put ourselves through the same ordeal as the Buddha. As regards the idea of coming to a correct answer after after a long and arduous road of effort to determine for oneself through practice which Efforts are Right and which are Wrong is concerned, do you mean the old 'trial and error' approach? I do not see in that a gradual progression towards right view and diminution of wrong view. I think the chances are that wrong view would prevail at the outset and would thereafter lead one deeper into wrong view. Jon #74174 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Change and Alteration Reference -- "An alteration of that which stands" jonoabb Hi TG TGrand458@... wrote: > Hi Howard, Nina, Sarah, Scott, All > > Looking for something else, I came across this reference about the 5 > Aggregates changing and altering. The question regarding "change/alteration" has > been somewhat in question with some here. > > " The Blessed One then said to the Venerable Ananda as he was sitting to one > side: > > If, Ananda, they were to ask you: 'Friend Ananda, what are the things of > which an arising WAS discerned, a vanishing WAS discerned, an alteration of that > which stands WAS discerned? What are the things of which an arising WILL BE > discerned, a vanishing WILL BE discerned, an alteration of that which stands > WILL BE discerned? What are the things of which an arising IS discerned, a > vanishing IS discerned, an alteration of that which stands IS discerned? -- > being asked that Ananda, how would you answer? > > Venerable sir, if they were to ask me this, I would answer thus: Friends, > with form that has passed, ceased, changed, an arising was discerned, a > vanishing was discerned, an alteration of that which stands was discerned. With > feeling ... perception ... volitional formations ... consciousness that has > passed, ceased, changed, an arising was discerned, a vanishing was discerned, an > alteration of that which stands was discerned. Its is of these things, > friends, that an arising was discerned, that a vanishing was discerned, that an > alteration of that which stands was discerned." > > TG: In short ... The above is repeated for future and present states. The > Buddha approves of and repeats the same formula. > > Samyutta Nikaya (Connected Discourses of the Buddha page 881) > Good sutta quote. However ... > > TG: There are many other Suttas that express change in this manner. Not to > mention those I've posted many times of late describing things as wearing > away, rubbing away, etc. > ... there is clearly a distinction to be made, in my view, between suttas such as this one which describe in detail characteristics of khandhas (or elements or ayatanas) and suttas which make use of conventional objects such as boats and adze-handles for the purpose of giving a simile. In the latter case the 'thing' in question is not being proposed as the object of knowledge (it is merely being used as a teaching device), whereas in the former it is. Jon #74175 From: Jaran Jainhuknan Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. jjnbdal Dear Nina: I login on the group for the first time in a long time. A lot of things have happened. Sorry to hear about your loss and pain. Best Regards, Jaran sarah abbott wrote: Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: >A story: I have a lot of pain in > my leg when walking. Paramattha dhammas: there are mere dhammas, such > as vipaakacittas produced by kamma and akusala cittas with dosa which > think about my pain. They all fall away immediately, they are not self. > Smiling when at a funeral. I admit, very hard when it would be > Lodewijk's funeral. A situation versus nama elements and rupa > elements that arise and fall away immediately. .... S: Yes, nama elements and rupa elements. Of course, we never know how we may respond (or rather what dhammas may arise) in future and no use in speculating, I think. We imagine we won't be smiling because of the pain in the leg or because of our grief, but then we have consideration for others around us and find we are smiling after all. In any case, whatever arises is conditioned and can be known as it is, not me or them. ... > There is sorrow, only nama, non-self. There is seeing, nama, non- > self. When we learn to see events as nama and rupa it means also that > we learn to see them as non-self. > Someone shouts at me. An event, a story. There is no he and me. I am > inclined to think in that way and that is conceit. Conceit is a nama, > non-self. Hearing is a nama, non-self. Sound is a rupa, non-self. The > whole world is broken down into elements that do not last for a > moment. Where are the entities, where is substantialism? ... S: Well said. Understanding paramattha dhammas is the only way to eradicate ideas of substantialism. Sorry to hear about the pain you're experiencing, Nina. I wish you a good recovery. Metta, Sarah ====== #74176 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (61) sarahprocter... Dear Connie & Nina, --- connie wrote: > Dear Nina, > I quite agree & hoped someone else might look, but I don't have Norman's > > Elders' Verses. > I'm curious as to the entire "list of words" and why the translator > thinks > he knows better than Dhammapaala. .... S: Here's the list to get your teeth stuck into! Norman. EV11, intro p xxxv, #37: "It is possible to point to a number of cases where Dhammapaala did not understand the meaning of a word or phrase he was commenting on, e.g. purakkhataa (199), jana-maaraka-majjha-gataa (217), ubho (217), su (258ff), bandhanti (294), khaaditaani (314), mama tuyha.m ca (315), tayaa (383), va.t.to (439) ? (440)[some typo]. Mrs Rhys Davids has pointed out (Sist., pxviii) that Dhammapaala's knowledge of North Indian geography is occasionally suspect.........Nevertheless, on the whole Dhammapaala comments accurately upon Thiig." !! He then refers to some errors in different manuscripts. ... >It ruffles my feathers & I actually > mean > "how the translator dare think". Rueful grin. Am I too dogmatic to > have > feathers? ... S: As Nina suggested, he takes a very linguistic approach. All his footnotes are with regard to linguistic points. I've always been rather disappointed with the translation. No commentary notes other than these. On the other hand, more than 30 yrs later, we have just recd the Pruitt text you are quoting from as our PTS gift this year. A real gem! ... > I looked in PED a bit around purakkhataa, but I don't see where there's > a > problem. > ... > [Are] exposed to (purakkhataa)* means: being put in front of > (purakkhaara-kaarino) ... they honour (purakkhatvaa) individuality. > ... > We're all just little self worshippers. We honour that more than truth. > > It is humbling. We are taught that the dhamma is our life, but we have > > yet to learn to read. > connie. > > > this has to be checked. Where? If a translator says that a > commentator misunderstood I tend to have mistrust. > Nina. > > > On this word see EV I, p.130 ad v. 37, .... A typical foot-note for you to unravel: "Cty: apurakkhato ti, micchaa-vitakkehi ta.nhaadiihi vaa na purakkhato ti, tesa.m vasa.m anupagacchanto. The translations given for purakkhata in PED ("honoured, esteemed, preferred") are certainly inadequate, for although "unhonoured" would not be impossible here, "honoured" would be quite inappropriate for kaama-dhaatu-purakkhato (378), byagghehi purakkhato (glossed: parivaarito) (1113), sa.msaarena purakkhato (1174), sakkaayasmi.m purakkhataa Thiig 199, tasi.naaya purakkhataa (glossed parivaaritaa) Dh 343, siitassa purakkhato u.nhassa purakkhato M i 85. In all these examples the Skt (lex.) meanings "attacked, assailed, accused, etc.", or the attested Skt meanings "accompanied by, possessed of, occupied with" (MW) make better sense." Then he has a few more lines on the semantic development, but no interest here to continue typing... Metta, Sarah ======= #74177 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the ongoing discussion: NEW TG: "Identifying elements and aggregates is just fine. I haven't heard anyone speak of non-identification except in the latter stages of insight. I identify them, I just don't identify them as you do." Scott: In what way are elements and aggregates identified within this view? NEW TG: "I think that's a big part of the whole point. The Buddha isn't interesting in identifying things as -- "Things in and of themselves." He just identifies them to the extent necessary to see that what arises is unsatisfactory and to help minds detach and become free of affliction. Repeatedly in the suttas the Buddha says that -- "seeing things as they really are" = seeing them as impermanent, suffering, nonself." Scott: What is it that 'sees' things as they really are', according to this view? TG: "I'll go as far as saying -- there is the manifestation of experiences and phenomena that support experiences. The nature of this phenomena is conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, nonself. Scott: 1)What are 'the phenomena that support experiences'? 2)What does 'manifestation' mean? NEW TG: "1) Already addressed the "identification" issue above." Scott: See above, as well. 2) "Insubstantiality? Oh yes...the Buddha's description. Well, that's a good reason to stick with it." Scott: Not a convincing statement, really. A discussion sort of slows down a lot with such assertions. This is merely a view about 'the Buddha's description'. How can we discuss anything when one asserts that the view espoused is equal to 'the Buddha's description'? I'm asking you to present reasoned arguments in favour of the view. Can you please say why it is important to consider this as does the view presented? TG: "3 & 4) I'll say it again...by seeing 'Dhammas' as ultimate realities with their own characteristics ... one (mentally) turns 'Dhammas' into entities or at least 'pseudo-entities' whether one realizes it or not, IMO. IMO, this is a poor platform to use for detaching the mind..." Scott: Is it fair to say that here the view is now turning somehow from 'theory' to 'practise'? 1)Again what is it that 'sees dhammas as ultimate realities with their own characteristics'? 2)Who is it 'mentally [turning] dhammas into entities'? This differentiation is being blurred by the view in question. TG: "Such a process gives 'dhammas' a firm and substantial foundation and structure in the mind. To use an analogy... When the goal is to tear down the house, I don't think we want to be bolstering its strength at the same time." Scott: The problem here is that 'we' don't do anything. There is no one who sees dhammas as having lakkhana. There is no one who tears down the house. Self-view bolsters. Again, the literality and concreteness in the use of analogies is contributing to misunderstanding. In this analogy, the subject is a dhamma with its own characteristics; the analog is the house. In order for this analogy to work, there must be some sort of accepted similarity, which, if this view as proposed is taken into account, doesn't occur - unless some acceptance of the ultimate reality of dhammas has occurred and now the discussion has shifted to the domain of practise. To take the view as I am understanding it, since there are no dhammas with sabhava, then there can be no house either. If the analog is the house, then there must be agreement that there are dhammas with sabhava, since an analogy works on the basis of inferring similarity between two things and then extending this assumed similarity to other aspects. I don't see the view as accepting this and hence the analogy doesn't work in favour of the view expressed. Please clarify, if you wish. Sincerely, Scott. #74178 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply, and welcome back. Looking forward to further notes on the recent conversations in Bangkok: S: "...Usually, if clinging to a view is mentioned, it is wrong view which is implied. Of course, there can still be clinging to right view!" Scott: Yeah, true. Not clinging to views did seem to be the point of the sutta. Right view doesn't cling. Sincerely, Scott. #74179 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) ksheri3 GOOD MORNING SCOTT, I thank you for your vipissana, insight, since you saw something in one of my posts and applied it here, I think -- it is I, colette, that is thinking and seeing an equality that you, Scott, has raised. I posed the question: Which came first that which is known or that which knows and here, below we all can see that you've struck a note highly significant in the rhetorical delusion I posed. (I'm at a computer that has a limitted command line so there are several functions that I don't know how to perform on this computer so please bare with me). > NEW TG: "Identifying elements and aggregates is just fine. I > haven't heard anyone speak of non-identification except in the latter > stages of insight. I identify them, I just don't identify them as > you do." colette: this is a VERY GOOD topic to discuss since I am/was exhibiting equalities between the people of the U.S.A. and the people of Bagdad but now BBC shows me that we have further equalities with the Pakistani government in their battle with the extremists that have taken over the Red Mosque and are now being evicted, but that's another story only tangent here/now. We can discuss this topic of the equality between the act of IDENTIFYING being equal to the act of NOT IDENTIFYING and the exact transposition of a citta rising and ceasing at the same time, in another post. I want to get to the "seeing" business that I noticed Scott found. --------------------------------------- > > Scott: In what way are elements and aggregates identified within this > view? > > NEW TG: "I think that's a big part of the whole point. The Buddha > isn't interesting in identifying things as -- "Things in and of > themselves." He just identifies them to the extent necessary to see > that what arises is unsatisfactory and to help minds detach and become > free of affliction. Repeatedly in the suttas the Buddha says that -- > "seeing things as they really are" = seeing them as impermanent, > suffering, nonself." > colette: this is Pravda, truth, that the Buddha advises "seeing things as they really are" but to do that requires the process of the meditations. One of the avenues, paths, would be the Vipissana meditation, but that isn't the only avenue, path. So, THEN, since we have accepted the truth of the quality of seeing things as the really are means that we've also accepted the rigors and practices of meditations to achieve this sight. This conclusion of the course a practioner takes to reach the truth is not advocated as a means and I think is then ignored by the masses that actually believe in a "magik bullet" that will somehow transform their view in the blink of an eye. ------------------------------------- > Scott: What is it that 'sees' things as they really are', according to > this view? > colette: THANK YOU SCOTT! I love it I love it I love it, great angle, what is it that sees a thing as it really is and does the act of seeing, then, know? The eye consciousness is seperate from the alaya- vijnana (store house consciousness) which is defiled by the perversions it accepted at one time as being pleasurable, non- pleasurable, and neither pleasurable nor non-pleasurable. Does the eye consciousness actually perceive all the characteristics of that which it sees? If so, how are the multitudes of characteristics classified, ranked, in the mind consciousness and storehouse consciousness? As I read further to comment on the rest I'm being struct by sooooo many questions that rise from what Scott is posing here and so I think I'll not waste your time with my un-thought out experiences here. I'll save this for personal meditation(s). thanks Scott. toodles, colette > TG: "I'll go as far as saying -- there is the manifestation of > experiences and phenomena that support experiences. The nature of > this phenomena is conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, nonself. > > Scott: > > 1)What are 'the phenomena that support experiences'? > > 2)What does 'manifestation' mean? > > NEW TG: "1) Already addressed the "identification" issue above." > > Scott: See above, as well. > > 2) "Insubstantiality? Oh yes...the Buddha's description. Well, > that's a good reason to stick with it." > > Scott: Not a convincing statement, really. A discussion sort of slows > down a lot with such assertions. <...> #74180 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG Continuing our thread from last week. TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Jon > > In a message dated 7/6/2007 6:16:32 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > To my understanding, insight refers to the direct understanding a > presently arising dhamma. This understanding will be of a level > appropriate to the individual. But even beginning level insight is > insight nonetheless. > > Insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma is the > outcome of satipatthana (indeed, satipatthana can be used to refer to > insight). > > ............................... > > TG: Basically we agree on most of the post that contained this part > Good. > ... but I'd like to make a few comments about this part. > > The use of the word "Dhamma" may bring with it different meanings to you > than to me. It kind of cloaks (for me) the meaning of what your saying. Can we > agree that when you refer to a "Dhamma" that it is the same as saying > "element" as in the 18 elements? > > What I might suspect, coming from perhaps a more abhidhamma oriented > tradition, is that you will want to consider the 108 consciousnesses as "Dhammas," > the 28 rupas as Dhammas, etc. (Sorry if my number are off, I'm a bit rusty.) > Now, what I see happen from here, not necessarily with you, is that all > these start becoming characterized as "Dhammas" and considered "Ultimate > Realities with their own chatacteristics." And what happens is an ontological > schemata of "Particle Realities" results. At this level, I can no longer accept > that this is what the Buddha taught, and in fact IMO, goes against the stream > of the Buddha's teaching. > Never mind about this. It is theoretical background that doesn't have any directly bearing on the development of insight at the present moment. > Second point) Insight to me is very importantly what you described above. > However, insight is far more comprehensive. Insight is inclusive about > understanding principles of conditionality: -- impermanence, affliction, nonself, > and applying those principles to such things as "past phenomena,"future > phenomena," "external phenomena," etc. This is obviously a conceptual and > analytical process. And this is clearly and obviously contained in and instructed > in the Satipatthana Sutta. > > I would agree that applying those principle as a "direct realization" of > what "present experiences" are; is even more important. (As long as "what the > experiences are" = conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, nonself.) But the > conceptual/analytical aspects of insight should not be overlooked, and if they > are overlooked, one is not really being truthful as to what the Suttas teach. > Also, it needlessly removes a very effective insight tool taught over and > over by the Buddha. > I suspect we differ here. Could you give an example of what you mean by (a) applying principles of conditionality to phenomena as instructed in the Satipatthana Sutta, and (b) applying those principles as a direct realization of what present experiences are. On the face of it, any application of conceptual knowledge/principles to the present moment would not be what I would call direct understanding of a presently arising dhamma (as in our agreed 'definition' above). Jon #74181 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. nilovg Dear Jaran, I am so glad to see you here. You said a lot has happened, and I hope your father is well? Your job? Everything is so unsure these days. I hear from others that they lost their job. I only have pain, no loss. This is an allusion to other discussions we had about funerals. Are you coming to India? We have planned to, but one never knows what will happen. Kamma and vipaaka. We all would be delighted if you come in here with a remark or question. All the best, Nina. Op 10-jul-2007, om 13:03 heeft Jaran Jainhuknan het volgende geschreven: > I login on the group for the first time in a long time. A lot of > things have happened. Sorry to hear about your loss and pain. #74182 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Larry LBIDD@... wrote: > L: I think that is a different thread you are talking about. This thread > has to do with specific index references to "wrong view" in MN (notice > the subject heading). There are only a half dozen or so and they all > follow the same format in distinguishing between right path and wrong > path. Within the category of right path under the sub-category of right > view, there are two kinds of right view, mundane and supramundane. > Mundane right view includes both the passage I quoted about mothers and > fathers and sacrifices, and, as Nina reminded me, mundane right view > also includes the insight knowledges. Mundane right view has quite a > range, from simple faith to insight knowledge. > I'm still not sure about 'simple faith' as right view. What exactly do you have in mind here? > I don't see how wrong > view could be kusala, so how could kusala citta be wrong view? > Correct, kusala citta cannot be wrong view. However, it can be the wrong path (only kusala of the level of satipatthana is reckoned as right path). Jon #74183 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [7] upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and all) - In a message dated 7/10/07 4:13:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... quotes Khun Sujin, saying: > KS: By kamma, not by one's will. =========================== Unless she is emphasizing the "ones's", this is a very odd statement of Khun Sujin's, because the Buddha said precisely that kamma is intention. (And it is unlikely that the "one's" was her emphasis, because KS had no problem speaking conventionally, such as in "No, I cannot say that because I cannot see him now.") BTW, I am mightily unimpressed by the notion that singing is (an expression of) greed. It is often mainly an expression of happiness, even joy. The fact that we worldlings tend to like what is pleasant doesn't demand that those elements that add and express joy our life be avoided, leaving only a hollow, dried up husk! If KS endorses eviction from one's mental household of the joy that singing expresses, she might also consider doing something about that smiling (and even laughing) of hers, don't you think? KS's attitude is so reminiscent to me of certain fundamentalist Protestant sects in parts of the southern U.S. that confuse goodness and spirituality with a gray moroseness that celebrates nothing. There IS healthy joy, and if it consigns one to hell, then that is a price I am more than willing to pay! But the people I have come across in this world who are good, and loving, and generous, and wise are also joyful and unafraid of life, and so I do not accept KS's drab dictum. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74184 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: >> The mundane path is that which leads to the supramundane path. >> Thus, the development of satipatthana (awareness accompanied >> by wisdom). >> > > OK. I guess I am feeling that the approach to satipatthana that is > suitable for busy worldlings is not quite so deep that it sees into > dhammas. I quote this from Soma Thera's introduction to his > translation of the satipatthana sutta. (Which you and Sarah were > kind enough to send to me - thanks again!) > > "The Discourse on the Arousing of Mindfulness deals with the > preparatory part, the Mundane Way of Mindfulness which is of > immediate practical value to worldlings still in the valleys of the > spirit far from the supramundane peaks." > > I don't feel the "immediate practical value" in the deep > teachings you favour, whereas I do find it and do experience it in > less deep approaches. However, the truth is the truth and rather > than looking at a vague note by the translator in the introduction, > the main thing is the commentary itself. > Yes, always better to check against the actual texts, wherever possible. >> ;-)) The primary textual support is the Satipatthana Sutta and >> its commentary. But there is much more, also. We can discuss >> further when I'm back in HK. >> > > Thanks. We'll see where I'm at when we get back from Canada. > (Going next week.) Today I feel amiable and open to patient > discussion. That won't last for long, probably. But who knows! > Some brief extracts below with selected commentary material, to ponder on while you're away. Note the "descriptive" interpretation given to such terms as ardent ("possessed of right energy"), clearly comprehending ("endowed with knowledge") and mindful ("endowed with mindfulness"). Note also the reference to"preliminary practice connected with the mundane path of mindfulness", which was the point you were wondering about. There are plenty of further references to the mundane path/practice/insight in the commentary material. Have a good trip! Jon From The Way of Mindfulness Sutta text: "Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent[1], clearly comprehending (it) [2] and mindful (of it)[3], having overcome[4], in this world[5], covetousness and grief[6] [1] Ardent (atapi) Cy: Ardour is a name for energy. Sub Cy: By taking the word ardent the Master points out the one possessed of right energy or exertion [sammappadhana]. [2] Clearly comprehending (sampajaano) Cy: Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña] [3] Mindful (satimaa) Cy: Endowed with mindfulness ... [4] Having overcome (vineyya) Cy: "Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]. Sub Cy: Preliminary practice connected with the mundane path of mindfulness is pointed out by the commentator here. [5] In this world (loke) Cy: "In this world." In just this body. Here the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing crumbling. [6] Covetousness and grief (abhijjhaa domanassa.m) Cy: As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness, and mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of clinging are the world." Covetousness stands for sense desire; and grief, for anger. As sense desire and anger are the principal hindrances, the abandoning of the hindrances is stated by the overcoming of covetousness and grief. With covetousness are abandoned the satisfaction rooted in bodily happiness, delight in the body, and the falling into erroneous opinion which takes as real the unreal beauty, pleasure, permanence and substantiality of the body. With the overcoming of grief are abandoned the discontent rooted in bodily misery, the non-delight in the culture of body-contemplation, and the desire to turn away from facing the real ugliness, suffering, impermanence and insubstantiality of the body. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html #74185 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sensibility to the teachings, was: "Dhammas" and Impermanence. jonoabb Hi Jaran Jaran Jainhuknan wrote: > Dear Nina: > > I login on the group for the first time in a long time. > Good to hear from you again. Hope you stick around for a while. > A lot of things have happened. > How about an update? ;-)) Jon #74186 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [7] nilovg Dear Sarah and Ramesh, A very good discussion on kamma and vipaaka. This is very helpful: When one has dircetly realized the arising and falling away of nama and rupa by the development of the stages of vipassana, one understands dying and rebirth in the paramatthic sense. This is a deeper understanding than that in the conventional sense. -------- --J: It may be from many, many lives previously. It may be a seed from before, but the time has come for ripening. So when you say 'the last few moments', it's a lot more. KS: Right. It's conditioned by the kamma. It depends on the ripening of that particular kamma which will be the one which will condition rebirth-consciousness. -------- N: Very well said. We cannot choose any experience, there is no 'we' to choose. Kamma that is habitually done is powerful, and that is, for example, the studying and considering of the Dhamma. We can be reminded to cultivate this kamma. But it is not in our hands whether such kamma will condition rebirth. There were so many akusala kammas we do not know about. It is of no use to think much about it. Let us take action! I think Han and Howard would agree here. Understanding anattaa does not mean passivity as to the cultivation of all good dhammas. This is an excellent discussion. Nina. Op 10-jul-2007, om 10:01 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > KS: There is no conventional belief anymore that there is someone > or some > person, because only a moment of citta arises and falls away. So > through > one's whole life or previous life or future life, it has to be like > this. #74187 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:49 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 170 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 170 Intro: In this section it is explained that kamma and its result arise in one continuity. Past lives, the present life and future lives are all in one continuity, they are an unbroken series of cittas. Just as a seed can sprout later on and bear its fruit accordingly, evenso kamma can produce its fruit later on, as rebirth-consciousness in a future life. That is why it is said of kamma and its fruit that there is no absolute identity nor absolute otherness. ----------- Text Vis. 170: When a fruit arises in a single continuity, it is neither another's nor from other [kamma] because absolute identity and absolute otherness are excluded there. The formative processes of seeds establish the meaning of this. For once the formative processes of a mango seed, etc., have been set afoot, when the particular fruit arises in the continuity of the seed's [growth], later on owing to the obtaining of conditions, it does so neither as the fruit of other seeds nor from other formative processes as condition; and those seeds or formative processes do not themselves pass on to the place where the fruit is. This is the analogy here. --------- N: The Tiika refers here as an example to the four sweet drinks, taken as a cure for poison. The flavour comes from different fruits like mango, citron etc. which originate from their respective seeds. As the Vis. text states, a particular fruit sprouts from a particular seed, not from another kind of seed. The Tiika states that the person who performs kamma is like the seed that is planted, kamma is like the process of planting. The rebirth- consciousness of a being that arises in the continuity (of lives) is like the sprouting of a seed in one continuity. It explains that just as a specific fruit comes only from its corresponding seed, so also must the nature of the fruit of a deed committed by a being be seen. It arises in accordance with the kamma that is performed. ---------- Text Vis.: And the meaning can also be understood from the fact that the arts, crafts, medicine, etc., learnt in youth give their fruit later on in maturity. ------------------------- N: A science thoroughly learnt in youth, as well as the training in arts, and the application to medicine performed in youth do not just go on to mature age. They give their fruit later on in maturity because they are not of another, they are included in the continuity of life. They could not give fruit without their being thoroughly learnt in youth. Evenso is the fruit arising in a continuity not of another, nor from another kamma. By the absence of a formation process, there is no fruit. ---------- Conclusion: A deed done in the past brings its fruit in accordance with that deed. An evil deed produces an unpleasant result and a good deed produces an agreeable result. Kamma is actually volition, cetanaa cetasika. Unwholesome volition and wholesome volition arise with the citta. Citta arises and falls away but it is immediately succeeded by the next citta. That is why akusala kamma and kusala kamma are accumulated from moment to moment and can bear fruit later on. There are many degrees of evil and wholesomeness and there are accordingly many degrees of results. We may be inclined to think of our deeds which will bring results to us, but in reality good and bad deeds are mere dhammas and because of the appropriate conditions they produce results which are also mere dhammas. Nobody can prevent kamma from producing its appropriate result. Nobody can choose what type of vipaaka arises. As Kh. Sujin said: < There is no conventional belief anymore that there is someone or some person, because only a moment of citta arises and falls away. So through one's whole life or previous life or future life, it has to be like this.> ******* Nina. #74188 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [7] rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I am mightily unimpressed by the notion that singing is (an > expression of) greed. It is often mainly an expression of happiness, even joy. The > fact that we worldlings tend to like what is pleasant doesn't demand that > those elements that add and express joy our life be avoided, leaving only a > hollow, dried up husk! If KS endorses eviction from one's mental household of the > joy that singing expresses, she might also consider doing something about that > smiling (and even laughing) of hers, don't you think? KS's attitude is so > reminiscent to me of certain fundamentalist Protestant sects in parts of the > southern U.S. that confuse goodness and spirituality with a gray moroseness that > celebrates nothing. > There IS healthy joy, and if it consigns one to hell, then that is a > price I am more than willing to pay! But the people I have come across in this > world who are good, and loving, and generous, and wise are also joyful and > unafraid of life, and so I do not accept KS's drab dictum. > +++++++++ Dear Howard http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara1/3-tikanipata/011-sambodhivaggo-e.html Angutara Nikaya Ru.n.nasutta.m- Crying 108.Bhikkhus, singing is crying in this discipline of the noble ones and dancing is insanity. Robert #74189 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:58 am Subject: The Bangkok Seminars - some thoughts pannabahulo The Bangkok Seminars – Some Thoughts Last week I had the wonderful opportunity to attend 3 days of Abhidhamma seminars with Ajan Sujin that were held in response to a visit to Thailand by Jonothan and Sarah. The first thing of note was that whole group were such kind, warm hearted and intelligent people who have a knowledge and understanding of the real Buddha Dhamma - and commitment to it – that is streets ahead of anything I have experienced, as a Buddhist monk, in the majority of temples, monasteries and meditation centres that I have visited. I learnt a great deal and am still processing a lot of what took place; I will certainly need to read much more and reflect upon it to really derive maximum benefit. Please understand that I was the `toddler' of the group; not by way of age, but by my limited understanding of Abhidhamma. I have written this article with the intention to lay out what I took away from the sessions that was relevant to my current situation. As I try to grasp what are incredibly subtle truths, I feel sure that there may be some gross misunderstandings in all this. Please feel free to correct me whenever I stray off course. For some years now, I have been troubled by several disturbing questions which can be formulated as follows. "Why have I practiced vipassana meditation so very intensely, for many years, yet derived so little benefit from it relative to the effort made?" "Why do so many other people find that, in spite of so much `formal' meditation, they are stuck and can make no real progress?" "Why are there so few who really understand what Vipassana actually is – as opposed to those who hold a belief that it is some kind of walking and/or sitting technique?" "And why are there very few meditators who have attained even to the level of Sotapanna / Stream Enterer - despite the firm guarantees at the close of the Satipatthana Sutta and the effort and commitment they have put into the practice?" These are questions that are now beginning to be answered by the realization that I have been viewing the notion of `meditation practice' in the wrong way. Vipassana means insight and so Vipassana is wisdom. Wisdom is a Cetasika which can arise only when there are conditions for this to happen. This process cannot be forced because all Cetasikas are Anatta (non-self). I, and so many other meditators besides, fall into the trap of practicing to achieve something. But this is to run in the opposite direction to insight. Spending hours walking and sitting will not help the arising of wisdom at all; unless one's kammic accumulations support that arising. But if they do, then wisdom can arise just as easily when one is washing one's clothes as when one is walking and sitting. In fact, it seems to me that, whilst washing one's clothes, the expectations or lobha that is usually present in most meditating yogi's minds is probably minimal - if present at all. And as lobha and wisdom cannot coexist together, there may be better opportunities for wisdom to arise whilst performing normal daily activities. It is generally true; it seems to me, that meditators usually have mind states that arise together with lobha. There is greed and craving for awareness, concentration, mindfulness and attainments; and there is the terrible attachment to the "I" conceit. Most meditators, including myself, think in terms of "my" meditation practice, "my" defilements and "my" hindrances. But, whilst such remains the case, wisdom is not present and so vipassana insight cannot arise. Sati has to be samma sati; and samma sati is not just knowing whether one is standing or sitting. Nor is merely concentrating on the breathe samma samadhi. What is necessary is that wisdom knows the reality of the present moment as rupas and namas arising and falling away; this process is anatta and so is void of "I', "me" and "mine". At such times lobha, dosa and moha are absent. At one point I asked the group if the meditation techniques that are usually labeled "vipassana' were an aid to developing awareness, mindfulness and concentration and so of value in that way. Ajan Sujin immediately asked me if I wanted to be aware. I said "No". She asked me what it was that I wanted and I said I wanted to develop understanding. She asked me what it was that I meditated for; I replied that I wanted an end to suffering. Ajan Sujin then asked me "Are you suffering now?" and I replied "No". This is the incredible metta of Ajan Sujin; always guiding and directing her students back to the "Right Now" present moment. I said that, over the years, I had studied and practiced various so called `vipassana techniques'; along with wise reflections, some accumulation of sutta maya panna, and of course trying to see how this applies to direct experience. But I have followed certain schools of thought that believe that the practice of meditation is enough. All a yogi needs to do is meditate and wisdom will arise by itself. Burn the books!! Just learn from your practice. But clearly this is not the way forward. If enlightenment – arahantship – could be attained by a specific meditation practice, the Buddha would have simply taught that practice to everyone. But he didn't; he spent 45 years going around teaching pariyatti. It is said that every morning he would scour the countryside, with his paranormal vision, to find people who had enough understanding to benefit from his teaching .Often he lived in, or near to, busy cities with thousands of inhabitants; but perhaps there were none there who could understand. So he might travel miles to help someone who was ready for his teaching. We must remember that, immediately after attaining Buddhahood, he hesitated and concluded that none could possibly comprehend what he now understood. And he finally agreed to teach for the benefit of those with only a little dust in their eyes. If enlightenment was just a matter of some sitting and/or walking meditation technique, it wouldn't have taken the Buddha countless kappas to reach his goal. And the story of Sariputta becoming a sotapanna reinforces this need for pariyatti. Sariputta was a very experienced meditator; yet he needed to hear a teaching – to get guidance from – spoken Dhamma; pariyatti; or sutta maya panna: and here are those famous lines that the Ven Assaji spoke: "Of those things that arise from a cause, The Tathagata has told the cause, And also what their cessation is: This is the doctrine of the Great Recluse." So I am now firmly convinced that the need for a map for the journey is vital before even starting on the long road to Nibbana. A lot needs to be understood which cannot possibly just come from what is so often called "vipassana meditation". Wisdom cannot be forced and so we could be in for a further really long haul in Samsara. I am certainly not suggesting that people stop meditating. But what was made clear to me is that meditation becomes just another rite or ritual unless underpinned by Right Understanding. I pointed out that I still sometimes find that making mental notes helps pull me back to the present moment. As a general method of practice I gave up making verbal (mental) notes a year or two ago. I found that they were getting in my way and making sati-sampajanna impossible by taking me out of the present moment. At this point Ajan Sujin asked me what about hardness? I was resting my arms on the table and hardness – a quality of rupa and so a paramattha dhamma – was present as an object of awareness. Why note? The awareness was there. Noting involves concepts and concepts are not real. Vipassana only applies to absolute truth; not concepts. And the most damming critique is that whist a meditator is, for example, noting "Seeing, seeing, seeing", no seeing is actually going on at all. Noting is `thinking': and the meditator should then be aware of thinking!! Noting depends on past dhammas that have already fallen away. Noting has nothing to do with the present moment. These were my lessons; and I will devote more time to studying both Abhidhamma and the Suttas. I will still meditate , but its form – and my understanding of it – must change radically if I am to understand what the present moment really is. Finally, I would like to say a big "Thank you" to Ajan Sujin for her continual help and guidance during last week's seminars and for all the metta that overflowed from her. Thank you so much Ajan for so patiently, and repeatedly, reminding us all of the present moment that is `here and now'. Thank you Jonothan and Sarah by making everything possible by being here on leave from Hong Kong. Please come back quickly!! And thank you for the help you gave me and the stimulating conversations we had in the garden. Thanks also to my good friend the Ven Dhammanando; without you I would never have known anything about this group and would still be in a void believing that my progress in Dhamma had come to a grinding, perhaps permanent, halt. And thank you for allowing me to stay in your temple so that I could, and can, attend these sessions. Thank you also to my good friend Sukinder. Thank you for your lovely warmth, generosity and metta towards me. (Thanks also for the photo; if I were a Bollywood /Hollywood film star I would definitely want you as my publicity agent!!). And thank you all of you; you made those few days an invaluable learning experience for me. I feel that I have made a new and wonderful group of noble friends – true kalyana mittas – I look forward to seeing you all again. You were all so full of mudita and just radiated joy that we were all learning the precious Dhamma together. May you all be well, happy and peaceful. With Metta, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #74190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:11 am Subject: Conditions, ch 7, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The patisandhi-citta, for example, is a cogent reason for the succeeding bhavanga-citta, so that life can continue. If the preceding citta would not be a powerful inducement for the arising of the succeeding citta, there could not be a continuous succession of cittas, even at this moment. In the case of birth as an animal, the patisandhi-citta is akusala vipåkacitta, and this citta conditions the succeeding bhavanga-citta by way of proximity decisive-support- condition. The bhavanga-citta is the same type of citta as the patisandhi-citta, it could not change into kusala vipåkacitta. Birth as an animal is different from birth as a human being, and the bhavanga-citta which succeeds the paìisandhi-citta in the case of these different kinds of births is in conformity with the patisandhi- citta. We can notice that the lives of animals and of human beings are completely different. Beings are born with different potentialities, different capabilities, and these are carried on to the succeeding bhavanga-citta and then to the following cittas which arise in succession throughout life. In between the processes of cittas there are bhavanga-cittas, and they are of the same type as the patisandhi-citta. There is the arising of seeing and thinking at this moment. They are conditioned by proximate decisive support-condition. Each citta which arises falls away immediately, but it has a conditioning force which is a powerful inducement for the arising of the succeeding citta without any interval. Thus, good and bad qualities can be carried on from moment to moment, they can be accumulated. Attachment has been accumulated from life to life. We think time and again with attachment about honour and all the pleasant things we want to obtain for ourselves. We have an interest in the Dhamma because this has been accumulated. We may have listened to the Dhamma in past lives, but we do not remember this anymore. Interest in the Dhamma and also the inclination to develop right understanding can be carried on from life to life because of proximity decisive support-condition. In the development of vipassanå, insight, there is awareness of whatever reality appears at the present moment. Because of proximity- condition and proximate decisive support-condition citta arises and falls away and is then succeeded by the next citta. At one moment there is seeing, at another moment attachment to visible object, at another moment again hearing or attachment to sound. Nobody can choose the object of awareness, because realities appear already because of their own conditions. Cittas which arise in a process of cittas do so according to a fixed order which cannot be changed. Each preceding citta is a powerful inducement for the arising of the next citta. ******** Nina. #74191 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:18 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, The Commentary explains that the “behaviour of unknowing” is conduct with ignorance, conduct because of ignorance, conduct with regard to the object which is not known or conduct which is ignorance. In the following section we read about the “behaviour of knowledge”. This includes the mind-door adverting-consciousness, which is neither kusala nor akusala, and the kusala javana-cittas which contemplate the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå, and which go on developing insight until enlightenment is attained, even to the degree of the phala-cittas (lokuttara vipåka which is fruition-consciousness) of the arahat. The Commentary explains that the “behaviour of knowledge” is conduct with knowledge, conduct because of knowledge, conduct towards the object which has been understood or conduct which is knowledge. “Knowledge” stands for the Påli term ñåna, which is paññå cetasika. We read further on in the “Path of Discrimination” (395): The behaviour of consciousness is one, the behaviour of unknowing is another, the behaviour of knowledge is another. Knowledge is in the sense of that being known and understanding is in the sense of the act of understanding that. Hence it was said: “Understanding of defining behaviour is knowledge of difference in behaviour.” Thus we see that all the different cittas which appear can be object of understanding, nothing is excluded, not even akusala cittas. Also the cittas with paññå which develop vipassanå are objects of understanding, otherwise paññå will be taken for self and there cannot be any progress. Lokuttara paññå, supramundane paññå, which accompanies the magga- citta, path-consciousness, arising when enlightenment is attained, eradicates defilements and experiences nibbåna. Defilements are eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment until they are all eradicated at the attainment of the fourth stage of enlightenment, the stage of the arahat. So long as there are defilements there are conditions for rebirth, we continue to be in the cycle of samsåra, the cycle of birth and death. At this moment we do not see the danger of being in the cycle of birth and death. By the development of vipassanå the danger of rebirth will be seen more and more. Birth as a human being is the result of kusala kamma, but, so long as one has not become a sotåpanna, akusala kamma may produce an unhappy rebirth in the future. The Buddha compared the accumulation of conditions for rebirth with the building of a house, and the freedom from samsåra with the destruction of this house. We read in the Commentary to the “Chronicle of Buddhas” (Buddhavaÿsa), the “Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning” (Madhuratthavilåsiní), in the section on the “Jewel Walk”, that the Buddha, after his enlightenment said: "Seeking but not finding the house-builder, I travelled through countless births in samsåra. Dukkha is birth again and again. House-builder, you have been seen now; you shall not build the house again. All your rafters are broken down, your ridge-pole demolished too. Now my mind has attained what is without constructions, and reached the destruction of cravings...." ****** Nina. #74192 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [7] nilovg Hi Howard, In order to understand what Kh Sujin said we have to scrutinize our different cittas. I can understand your feelings about this. Greed is not exactly the word here, there is not very harmful lobha. But there is likely to be attachment when the objective is not dana, sila or bhavana. Would you consider the different cittas? This point is very important. We are music lovers and play together. At times we like to help someone else who is depressed or in pain, for example, my late father, and now our help in the house who suffers. Then there can be cittas with generosity. There are other moments that we just enjoy, and it is good to know that these are cittas with lobha. We like pleasant sounds. Who can stop that? But this point has to be understood: we never have to avoid such enjoyment, it is not like akusala kamma, unless one is a monk. For amonk it is a different matter, see rob's post. It shows that singing is (usually) is not done by kusala cittas. Liking pleasant things is our natural daily life and there can be awareness of nama and rupa in between, without forcing this. Kh Sujin said that we need not change our lifestyle. Never would she tell someone to stop singing. She asked me before whether I still play the flute. She told the Thai audience about this as an illustration to follow one's life naturally. I know you are in a choir and enjoy singing. Please enjoy. Nobody needs to worry about that. I hope I could clarify something for you. Nina. Op 10-jul-2007, om 15:23 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > BTW, I am mightily unimpressed by the notion that singing is (an > expression of) greed. It is often mainly an expression of > happiness, even joy. The > fact that we worldlings tend to like what is pleasant doesn't > demand that > those elements that add and express joy our life be avoided, > leaving only a > hollow, dried up husk! #74193 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hmmmm.... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Dan) - In a message dated 7/10/07 7:04:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > I could agree with the analogy in the sense of the Buddha coming up with > the 'answer to a sum' after spending many lifetimes in the pursuit of > knowledge. We are then urged to adopt that answer, to the extent we are > capable of verifying it for ourselves, rather than put ourselves through > the same ordeal as the Buddha. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Just "adopt" the answer on the basis of presumed authority and go to no genuine energetic efforts to make a true verification possible? What sort of knowing would that constitute? Not a very deep or direct one, it seems to me,and not a transformative one. What of the following words of the Kalama Sutta? (I mark off a relevant portion by double asterisks.) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; ** nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.** " -- -- -- -- -- -- With regard to that last sentence, for "you yourself" to know, more than idle attempts at easy verification are needed. Sustained, serious - even "formal" - effort is needed. As in The Sound of Music, "Nothing comes from nothing. Nothing ever will." ;-) There is an urgency to put forth effort when it is possible to do so. In SN 2.10, the Buddha taught the following: _ _ _ _ _ _ Get up! Sit up! What's your need for sleep? And what sleep is there for the afflicted, pierced by the arrow, oppressed? Get up! Sit up! Train firmly for the sake of peace, Don't let the king of death, — seeing you heedless — deceive you, bring you under his sway. Cross over the attachment to which human & heavenly beings, remain desiring tied. Don't let the moment pass by. Those for whom the moment is past grieve, consigned to hell. Heedless is dust, dust comes from heedlessness has heedlessness on its heels. Through heedfulness & clear knowing you'd remove your own sorrow. -- -- -- -- -- -- Also, in AN 3.91 the Buddha expressed the urgency for expending genuine effort as follows: _ _ _ _ _ _ "There are these three urgent duties of a farming householder. Which three? "There is the case where a farming householder quickly gets his field well-plowed & well-harrowed. Having quickly gotten his field well-plowed & well-harrowed, he quickly plants the seed. Having quickly planted the seed, he quickly lets in the water & then lets it out. "These are the three urgent duties of a farming householder. Now, that farming householder does not have the power or might [to say:] 'May my crops spring up today, may the grains appear tomorrow, and may they ripen the next day.' But when the time has come, the farming householder's crops spring up, the grains appear, and they ripen. "In the same way, there are these three urgent duties of a monk. Which three? The undertaking of heightened virtue, the undertaking of heightened mind, the undertaking of heightened discernment. These are the three urgent duties of a monk. Now, that monk does not have the power or might [to say:] 'May my mind be released from fermentations through lack of clinging/sustenance today or tomorrow or the next day.' But when the time has come, his mind is released from fermentations through lack of clinging/sustenance. "Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'Strong will be our desire for the undertaking of heightened virtue. Strong will be our desire for the undertaking of heightened mind. Strong will be our desire for the undertaking of heightened discernment.' That's how you should train yourselves." -- -- -- -- -- -- In the foregoing, the Buddha speaks of the urgency to cultivate the mind, such cultivation, like the preparation and cultivation of a farmer's field provides the conditions for fruition and ripening. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > As regards the idea of coming to a correct answer after after a long and > arduous road of effort to determine for oneself through practice which > Efforts are Right and which are Wrong is concerned, do you mean the old > 'trial and error' approach? I do not see in that a gradual progression > towards right view and diminution of wrong view. I think the chances > are that wrong view would prevail at the outset and would thereafter > lead one deeper into wrong view. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that random trial and error would be a fruitless approach. --------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) #74194 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [7] upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 7/10/07 9:51:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard > http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara1/3-tikanipata/011-sambodhivaggo-e.html > > Angutara Nikaya Ru.n.nasutta.m- Crying > > 108.Bhikkhus, singing is crying in this discipline of the noble ones > and dancing is insanity. > Robert > ========================== Bhikkhus and bhikkhunis are single-minded practitioners, fully dedicated to progress on the path. Singing and dancing - in general, music - is a distraction as regards mindfulness and especially as regards jhana cultivation. A melody that loops through ones mind while sitting for meditation can be a real distraction. I see this as the basis for these comments. I do presume, BTW, that you haven't banned all music from your life, Robert. Or am I wrong in that? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74195 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [7] upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/10/07 10:46:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > In order to understand what Kh Sujin said we have to scrutinize our > different cittas. I can understand your feelings about this. Greed is > not exactly the word here, there is not very harmful lobha. But there > is likely to be attachment when the objective is not dana, sila or > bhavana. Would you consider the different cittas? This point is very > important. > We are music lovers and play together. At times we like to help > someone else who is depressed or in pain, for example, my late > father, and now our help in the house who suffers. Then there can be > cittas with generosity. There are other moments that we just enjoy, > and it is good to know that these are cittas with lobha. We like > pleasant sounds. Who can stop that? > But this point has to be understood: we never have to avoid such > enjoyment, it is not like akusala kamma, unless one is a monk. For > amonk it is a different matter, see rob's post. It shows that singing > is (usually) is not done by kusala cittas. Liking pleasant things is > our natural daily life and there can be awareness of nama and rupa in > between, without forcing this. > Kh Sujin said that we need not change our lifestyle. Never would she > tell someone to stop singing. She asked me before whether I still > play the flute. She told the Thai audience about this as an > illustration to follow one's life naturally. > I know you are in a choir and enjoy singing. Please enjoy. Nobody > needs to worry about that. > I hope I could clarify something for you. > Nina. > ========================== As for clarifying Khun Sujin's statement, I'm not sure how much this succeeds in that, but I DO like what *you* have had to say here very much. BTW, as regards music and practice, along the lines of what I wrote in my reply to Robert, it IS true that a melody stuck in one's head is a real impediment to meditation. I make a concerted effort to not listen to music or to sing any time close to when I will be sitting to meditate, because I know first-hand how that has the potential for interfering. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #74196 From: connie Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:31 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (62) nichiconn dear friends, 9. Navakanipaato 1. Va.d.dhamaatutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 4 txt: Ta.m sutvaa therii "a.numattopi kileso katthacipi visaye mama na vijjatii"ti vatvaa attano katakiccata.m pakaasentii- 208. "Ye keci va.d.dha sa"nkhaaraa, hiinaa ukka.t.thamajjhimaa; a.nuupi a.numattopi, vanatho me na vijjati. 209. "Sabbe me aasavaa khii.naa, appamattassa jhaayato; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti.- Ima.m gaathaadvayamaaha. When she heard this, the therii said said, "Not even a defilement of the minutest size in connection with any of the sense is found in me." And explaining the fact that she had done her own duty, he spoke these two verses: 208. Whatever formations, Va.d.dha, are low, high, or in between, no craving - even minute, even of minute size - is found in me for them. 209. All my taints have been annihilated as I meditate, vigilant. I have obtained the three knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. RD: Then the Therii replied, showing her work was done: Ah, no! my Va.d.dha, whatsoe'er I do, Or say, or think, in things or great or small, Not e'en the smallest growth of jungly vice *306 Yet standeth in the onward way for me. (208) For all the deadly poison-plants are killed In me who meditate with strenuous zeal. The Threefold Wisdom have I gotten now, And all the Buddha's word have I fulfilled. (209) *306 Vanatho. Jungle and vice are equally implied in this word. 'Poison-plants' = simply AAsavaa. Txt: Tattha ye keciiti aniyamavacana.m. Sa"nkhaaraati sa"nkhatadhammaa. Hiinaati laamakaa patiku.t.thaa. Ukka.t.thamajjhimaati pa.niitaa ceva majjhimaa ca. Tesu vaa asa"nkhataa hiinaa jaatisa"nkhataa ukka.t.thaa, ubhayavimissitaa majjhimaa. Hiinehi vaa chandaadiihi nibbattitaa hiinaa, majjhimehi majjhimaa, pa.niitehi ukka.t.thaa. Akusalaa dhammaa vaa hiinaa, lokuttaraa dhammaa ukka.t.thaa, itaraa majjhimaa. A.nuupi a.numattopiiti na kevala.m tayi eva, atha kho ye keci hiinaadibhedabhinnaa sa"nkhaaraa. Tesu sabbesu a.nuupi a.numattopi atiparittakopi vanatho mayha.m na vijjati. Pruitt: 208. There, whatever means: it is an indefinite statement. Formations (sa"nkhaaraa) means: conditioned phenomena (sa"nkhata-dhammaa). Low means: inferior, despicable. High, or in between (ukka.t.tha-majjhimaa) means: and even [what is] excellent, and in between (majjhimaa). Or, for these, what is unproductive* is low, what is conditioned by birth is high, and what is a mixture of both is in between. Or, low is the result of low thins such as desire; in between, of tings in between; high, of excellent things. Or, unwholesome states are low, supreamundates states ar high, the rest are in between. Even minute, even of minute size means: not only with regard to you, but also with regard to whatever formations there are, consisting of the low, etc., no craving is found in me for any of these things, even minute, even of minute size, even very small. *Asankhataa, not in the usual sense of "unconditioned" (cf. Ce: na sa"nkhataa). Txt: Tattha kaara.namaaha- "sabbe me aasavaa khii.naa, appamattassa jhaayato"ti. Tattha appamattassa jhaayatoti appamattaaya jhaayantiyaa, li"ngavipallaasena heta.m vutta.m. Ettha ca yasmaa tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, tasmaa kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. Yasmaa appamattaa jhaayinii, tasmaa sabbe me aasavaa khii.naa, a.nuupi a.numattopi vanatho me na vijjatiiti yojanaa. Pruitt: 209. There, she gives the cause, saying: All my taints have been annihilated as I meditate, vigilant. There, as I meditate, vigilant (appa-matassa jhaayato [ie, masuline endings]) means: as I meditate, vigilant (appamatttaaya jhaayantiyaa [ie, feminine endings]). This is called a substitution of gender.* And there, since the three knowledges are attained, the Buddha's teaching has therefore been done. Since I am a diligent meditator, therefore all my taints are annihilated, no craving - even minute, even of minute size - is found in me for them.** *Dhammapaala is attributing this verse to Therii Va.d.dha-Maataa, therefore the need for an explanation for the masculine gender used. If the verses are taken to be spoken by her son (as is the case of the following verses), the masuline is normal (see EV II, p.99). **For "I have obtained ... teaching," see the commentary above on v. 26 (p.48). {A.d.dhakaasii, Sisters 22}. ===tbc, connie #74197 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Change and Alteration Reference -- "An alteration of that which sta... TGrand458@... In a message dated 7/10/2007 5:04:26 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: ... there is clearly a distinction to be made, in my view, between suttas such as this one which describe in detail characteristics of khandhas (or elements or ayatanas) and suttas which make use of conventional objects such as boats and adze-handles for the purpose of giving a simile. In the latter case the 'thing' in question is not being proposed as the object of knowledge (it is merely being used as a teaching device), whereas in the former it is. Jon ........................... Hi Jon My point was to highlight the "an alteration of that which stands" to point out what I think indicates "change in process/progress." Now your point. Let's look at the Satipatthana Sutta. How about the 32 bodily parts, the charnel grounds/corpses contemplations, the bodily postures? Are these things the ultimate realities you speak of? I don't think so. Are they merely "teaching devices" or "objects of knowledge." I'd say both. But in my view, all of the Buddha's teachings are "teaching devices" which are to be discarded like the "raft" when they have achieved their purpose. (Except for maybe that raft simile.) ;-) TG #74198 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 7/10/2007 5:27:33 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Thanks for the ongoing discussion: NEW TG: "Identifying elements and aggregates is just fine. I haven't heard anyone speak of non-identification except in the latter stages of insight. I identify them, I just don't identify them as you do." Scott: In what way are elements and aggregates identified within this view? .................................. NEWER TG: Through experience, mindfulness, observation, analysis, investigation, contemplation, concentration, effort, insight and with guidance from the Suttas. ........................................ NEW TG: "I think that's a big part of the whole point. The Buddha isn't interesting in identifying things as -- "Things in and of themselves." He just identifies them to the extent necessary to see that what arises is unsatisfactory and to help minds detach and become free of affliction. Repeatedly in the suttas the Buddha says that -- "seeing things as they really are" = seeing them as impermanent, suffering, nonself." Scott: What is it that 'sees' things as they really are', according to this view? ...................................... NEWER TG: Insight. .......................................... TG: "I'll go as far as saying -- there is the manifestation of experiences and phenomena that support experiences. The nature of this phenomena is conditioned, impermanent, afflicting, nonself. Scott: 1)What are 'the phenomena that support experiences'1 ............................................ NEWER TG: The 18 elements. ................................................ 2)What does 'manifestation' mean? ................................................ NEW TG: It means "it appears." .............................................. NEW TG: "1) Already addressed the "identification" issue above." Scott: See above, as well. 2) "Insubstantiality? Oh yes...the Buddha's description. Well, that's a good reason to stick with it." Scott: Not a convincing statement, really. A discussion sort of slows down a lot with such assertions. This is merely a view about 'the Buddha's description'Buddha's description'. How can we discuss any that the view espoused is equal to 'the Buddha's description'that the asking you to present reasoned arguments in favour of the view. ........................................ NEWER TG: Hey, I quote from the Suttas to back up points. I try to explain them as well. Generally your not satisfied with either. I've presented about 100 arguments in the last few months. I think the real dissatisfaction is that it doesn't conform to your views. .................................... Can you please say why it is important to consider this as does the view presented? TG: "3 & 4) I'll say it again...by seeing 'Dhammas' as ultimate realities with their own characteristics ... one (mentally) turns 'Dhammas' into entities or at least 'pseudo-entities' whether one realizes it or not, IMO. IMO, this is a poor platform to use for detaching the mind..." Scott: Is it fair to say that here the view is now turning somehow from 'theory' to 'practise'? ................................... NEWER TG: I'd say that the view is tending to generate delusion. But, is there practice involved in making the attempt to understand what elements and aggregates are and how they operate, even if not "on the mark" IMO? Sure. ............................................. 1)Again what is it that 'sees dhammas as ultimate realities with their own characteristics'o .......................................... NEWER TG: Views, Delusions. ........................................ 2)Who is it 'mentally [turning] dhammas into entities'? This differentiation is being blurred by the view in question. ............................................ NEWER TG: There is no "who" involved. It is a particular association of elements that generate views about things, that lack insight, and interpret incorrectly. ........................................... TG: "Such a process gives 'dhammas' a firm and substantial foundation and structure in the mind. To use an analogy... When the goal is to tear down the house, I don't think we want to be bolstering its strength at the same time." Scott: The problem here is that 'we' don't do anything. There is no one who sees dhammas as having lakkhana. There is no one who tears down the house. Self-view bolsters. ..................................... NEWER TG: Gee, I even identified that an analogy was coming. :-( ........................................ Again, the literality and concreteness in the use of analogies is contributing to misunderstanding. In this analogy, the subject is a dhamma with its own characteristics; the analog is the house. In order for this analogy to work, there must be some sort of accepted similarity, which, if this view as proposed is taken into account, doesn't occur - unless some acceptance of the ultimate reality of dhammas has occurred and now the discussion has shifted to the domain of practise. ........................................... NEWER TG: So when the Buddha compares the rubbing together of the fire sticks to sense base and sense object causing consciousness ... does that analogy work for you? For example: is a "fire-stick" analogous enough to the "eye-element" to suit you? .............................................. To take the view as I am understanding it, since there are no dhammas with sabhava, then there can be no house either. If the analog is the house, then there must be agreement that there are dhammas with sabhava, since an analogy works on the basis of inferring similarity between two things and then extending this assumed similarity to other aspects. I don't see the view as accepting this and hence the analogy doesn't work in favour of the view expressed. Please clarify, if you wish. ................................................. NEWER TG: The point of the analogy was this -- if you want to tear something down, you don't do so by trying to strengthen it. Why are you all hung-up about "house." Its a basically non-issue in the analogy. But if you must... The house represents structure. It represents condit ionality. The goal of Buddhism is to escape conditionality and the suffering associated with it by essentially "tearing down" the 5 aggregate complex / "house." So if we're trying to break down the "bonds" that tie us to conditionality, we don't want to strengthen the bonds. Viewing "conditional elements" as "ultimate realities with their own characteristics" in my view strengthens the bonds when, in fact, there is no need to do so, no teaching directed by the Buddha to do so, and I believe incorrect to do so. TG OUT #74199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [7] nilovg Hi Howard, For vipassana nothing is an impediment. Also thinking of a melody is real, it is conditioned. It is remembered because of sa~n~naa. Thinking is different from hearing and we can learn more about all these realities. Also when you are in the choir: do not forget awareness (here is some gentle prompting). Perhaps it is your turn to laugh! The movement of the mouth, the jaws, etc. There are different rupas appearing. Nina. Op 10-jul-2007, om 17:15 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > it IS true that a melody stuck in one's head is a real > impediment to meditation. I make a concerted effort to not listen > to music or to > sing any time close to when I will be sitting to meditate, because > I know > first-hand how that has the potential for interfering.