#75000 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 5:30 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah, - Please allow me to combine the two parts of your reply together, so I can answer both with one comment. >T: I also find that it is not easy to accept the single-moment approach (when all the dhammas simultaneously arise with no intention) that rejects all doings/practice/sequential development. Sarah: Er...remember, cetana (intention) arises with every citta...by conditions:-) Er...I don't think there is any rejection of 'doings/practice/sequential development', but there is a rejection of Self or Atta being involved. However long the development, however many aeons it may take, there is still only ever the dhammas of the present moment existing! No conflict here. T: How can I deny that cetana arises with every citta by conditions ! No conflict if intention is accompanied by manasikara, and mental development has enough time to produce an intended result. Please advise if you see an error in this reply. Thanks. Tep === #75001 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 9:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Howard Thanks for coming in with these comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: ... > > To answer your question another way, there is nothing about the > > attainment of jhana per se that predisposes a person towards > > enlightenment. > > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not so, Jon. Concentration leads other factors, as seen in one or more > of those "spiral suttas" Iwrote you about long ago. When we read in a sutta that concentration is a condition for insight (or for some other factor in a chain of factors leading to insight), we need to know what concentration is being referred to. Is it: - any concentration at all (in which case it would include the concentration that accompanies akusala citta) - the concentration of any kusala citta (i.e., dana, sila, samatha, vipassana) - the concentration of samatha only - the concentration of satipatthana only? To my understanding, the commentaries make it clear that it is the concentration of satipatthana that is being spoken of, unless the situation being referred to is one of enlightenment with jhana as basis. > Moreover, Jhana is right concentration. I don't think the teachings say that [mundane] jhana is right concentration. What they say is that right concentration as a path factor (i.e., at the moment of path consciousness) is jhana of one level or another. If mundane jhana was right concentration (and so on for the other path factors), then persons who had never heard the teachings could be developing the NEP. This cannot be so, as the NEP is a teaching peculiar to a Buddha. > -------------------------------------------- > Enlightenment is the outcome of highly developed > > > insight, and insight can only be developed (a) during a Buddha's > > dispensation, and (b) by one who has a correct understanding of the > > teachings on insight. Jhana + wrong view = no enlightenment! > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Counterexample: paccekabuddhas. Correct. All Buddhas are fully self-enlightened; that is what makes a Buddha a Buddha. > In any case, we are still in a Buddha's dispensation. Yes, but this does not have any bearing on the question of whether or not the attainment of jhana predisposes a person towards enlightenment. The key is the understanding of the teachings on the development of the path, regardless one's level of development of samatha. Jhana + wrong practice = no insight development. Hence the importance of a proper grasp of the teachings. (I'm not saying I have all the answers; only that a proper intellectual understanding is the only basis for development of the path.) Jon #75002 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 12:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas sarahprocter... Hi Mike (& Han), One of Mike's messages that didn't make it to the list was this: > Hi Sarah (and Han), > > >Sarah: I think it's important to remember that sanna and citta vipallasas >> arise >> with all akusala cittas .... Mike: Somehow I seem to have missed this--very interesting. Could you please (re)post the source? Thanks in Advance, mike .... S: Lots in U.P. under vipallasas with various sources, such as in the following: #17224, 24435. 39162, 55019, 60283, 62313, 65519, 65801, 65808 Whenever there's ignorance (i.e with all akusala), there are the vipallaasas of citta and sanna. Only the anagami has eradicated the vipallaasa of taking the asubha for subha and only the arahant has eradicated the taking of what is dukkha for sukha. To pick one of the above, Larry's Vism ref as given in #55019: >L: The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 227. One who sees feeling as pain fully understands nutriment consisting of contact. He abandons the perversion of perceiving pleasure in the painful. He crosses the flood of becoming. He is loosed from the bond of becoming. He becomes canker-free as regards the canker of becoming. He breaks the bodily tie of ill will. He does not cling with rites-and-ritual clinging. ***************************** 227. vedana.m dukkhato passanto phassaahaara.m parijaanaati, dukkhe sukhanti vipallaasa.m pajahati, bhavogha.m uttarati, bhavayogena visa.myujjati, bhavaasavena anaasavo hoti, byaapaadakaayagantha.m bhindati, siilabbatupaadaana.m na upaadiyati.< ***** Also, an extract from Nina's message #65519: >N: As we read in the text of the Visuddhimagga: < he figures that formations are self, belong to a self, are lasting, pleasant, beautiful.> Here the text refers to the perversions, vipallaasa, of perception (sa��aa), of citta, of wrong view. Through these perversities one regards: what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness); what is non-self (anattaa) as self; what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful. Thus, there are four perversions. The sotaapanna has eliminated the perversions of perception, citta and wrong view, that the impermanent is permanent and what is non- self as self; further, the perversion of wrong view that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. The annaagaami has eliminated: the perversions of perception and citta that the impure is pure. The arahat has eliminated the perversions of perception and citta that the painful is pleasant (Vis. XXII, 68). Thus we see that not all perversions are conditioned by wrong view. However, all of them are conditioned by ignorance.< ***** Let us know if either of you have any further reflections to add. Metta, Sarah ========= #75003 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 1:00 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon (& Howard), --- nidive wrote: >SB: .... As I remember the Buddha said somewhere, it takes a > very long time to really know a person inside & out. ... Sarah: Good point! These maybe the suttas you have in mind: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46520 Sarah:>....from SN3:11 Seven Jatilas briefly on how it’s possible to know someone’s virtue, honesty, courage and wisdom: 1.“It is by living together with someone, great king, that his virtue is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. 2.“It is by dealing with someone, great king, that his honesty is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. 3.“It is in adversities, great king, that a person’s fortitude is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. 4.“It is by discussion with someone, great king, that his wisdom is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard.” ***** Another sutta, AN 4s, 192, [PTS ‘Conditions’,(Thaanaani Sutta)], adds more detail after giving exactly the same summary as above with the same emphasis on ‘after a long time’. I’ll just select further extracts on these four topics as I find them interesting: 1. Virtue (siila) “In this case, monks, a person knows thus of another person by associating with him: For a long time this worthy has been one whose deeds are incongruous, inconsistent, shady and spotted. His deeds are not consistent, his habits are not consistent with morals. This worthy is immoral, he is not virtuous. "Herein again, monks, by associating with him one knows of another person: For a long time this worthy has been one whose deeds are congruous, consistent, not shady, not spotted. His deeds are consistent, his habits are consistent with morals. This worthy is moral, he is virtuous. "Indeed, monks, it is by association that one’s virtue is to be understood and that too after a long time......” 2. Integrity/Honesty (soceyya”n) “In this case, monks, a person knows thus of another person by living with him: This worthy, when with one person, behaves in one way; when with two persons, in another way; when with three, in yet another way; again otherwise when with many. In his former behaviour he departs from his latter behaviour. This worthy is not honest in his behaviour. This worthy is dishonest. "In this case again, monks, a person knows another by living with him. (So he concludes:) This worthy when with one person behaves just as he does with two, three or many. In his former behaviour he dparts not from his latter behaviour. This worthy is honest, he is not dishonest. "Indeed, monks, it is by living with him that a man’s integrity is to be understood....” 3. Courage/Fortitude (thaamo) “In this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives or loss of wealth or by the misfortune of sickness, thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is this living in the world. Thus-come-to-be is the getting of a personality. According to this coming-to-be of living in the world and getting a personality eight world-conditions keep the world a-rolling and the world keeps a-rolling with world-conditions, to with: - gain and loss, disrepute and fame, blame and praise, happiness and unhappiness. So he, afflicted by loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, sorrows, laments, is distressed and knocks his breast, wails and falls into utter bewilderment. "But in this case, monks, a certain one, afflicted by the loss of relatives.....thus reflects: Verily thus-come-to-be is thus living in the world.....and unhappiness. He, afflicted by the loss of relatives, loss of wealth or the misfortune of sickness, does not sorrow, does not falter,....nor falls into utter bewilderment......” 4. Wisdom (pa~n~naa) “In this case, monks, a person by conversing with another knows thus of him: Judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is weak in wisdom, he is not wise. What is the cause of that? In the case in question this worthy utters no profound profitable sentence (attha-padda”n) that calms, is sublime, is beyond the sphere of mere reasoning (atakkaavacara”n), that is subtle and intelligible to the wise. As to Dhamma that this worthy talks, he is not competent, either in brief or in detail, to explain its meaning, to show it forth, expound it, lay it down, open it up, analyse and make it plain. This worthy is weak in wisdom, he is not wise..... "Herein again, monks, a person by conversing with another knows thus of him: Judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom (pa~n~navaa). What is the cause of that? "In the case in question this worthy can utter a profound, profitable sentence, that calms, that is sublime, is beyond the sphere of mere reasoning, that is subtle and intelligible to the wise. As to Dhamma that this worthy talks, he is competent, both in brief and in detail, to explain its meaning, to show it forth, expound it, lay it down, open it up, analyse and make it plain. This worthy is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom. "Just as if, monks, a man with good eyesight, standing on the bank of a pool of water, were to see a big fish rising, he would think: Judging by the uprise of this fish, judging by the size of the ripple it makes, judging by its speed, this is a big fish; this is not a small fish: - just in the same way, monks, a person, by conversing with another, knows thus of him: judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom.”< ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #75004 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 7, 2007 9:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/8/07 12:24:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Thanks for coming in with these comments. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > >>To answer your question another way, there is nothing about the > >>attainment of jhana per se that predisposes a person towards > >>enlightenment. > >> > >--------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Not so, Jon. Concentration leads other factors, as seen in > one or more > >of those "spiral suttas" Iwrote you about long ago. > > When we read in a sutta that concentration is a condition for insight > (or for some other factor in a chain of factors leading to insight), > we need to know what concentration is being referred to. Is it: > - any concentration at all (in which case it would include the > concentration that accompanies akusala citta) > - the concentration of any kusala citta (i.e., dana, sila, samatha, > vipassana) > - the concentration of samatha only > - the concentration of satipatthana only? > > To my understanding, the commentaries make it clear that it is the > concentration of satipatthana that is being spoken of, unless the > situation being referred to is one of enlightenment with jhana as > basis. > > >Moreover, Jhana is right concentration. > > I don't think the teachings say that [mundane] jhana is right > concentration. What they say is that right concentration as a path > factor (i.e., at the moment of path consciousness) is jhana of one > level or another. > > If mundane jhana was right concentration (and so on for the other > path factors), then persons who had never heard the teachings could > be developing the NEP. This cannot be so, as the NEP is a teaching > peculiar to a Buddha. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, a requisite condition need not be sufficient! Conentration is insufficient, and I never claimed otherwise. The investigation of dhammas, for example, is another critical requisite. I, it happens, do not believe the jhanas taught by the Buddha are the same as the absorptive states taught by his predecessor, or, for that matter, the same as even some Buddhists assume. The abilities available in Buddhist jhanas as given in the Anupada Sutta (and also, I believe, in the sutta that describes the Buddha's awakening) are not available in the absorptive states of his predecessors. ------------------------------------------------- > > >-------------------------------------------- > > Enlightenment is the outcome of highly developed > > >>insight, and insight can only be developed (a) during a Buddha's > >>dispensation, and (b) by one who has a correct understanding of > the > >>teachings on insight. Jhana + wrong view = no enlightenment! > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Counterexample: paccekabuddhas. > > Correct. All Buddhas are fully self-enlightened; that is what makes > a Buddha a Buddha. > > >In any case, we are still in a Buddha's dispensation. > > Yes, but this does not have any bearing on the question of whether or > not the attainment of jhana predisposes a person towards > enlightenment. > ----------------------------- Howard: You brought up the dispensation, not I. ------------------------------- The key is the understanding of the teachings on the > > development of the path, regardless one's level of development of > samatha. Jhana + wrong practice = no insight development. > ----------------------------- Howard: The Buddha's jhana is part of right practice. It is simply not all of it. ------------------------------ Hence the > > importance of a proper grasp of the teachings. (I'm not saying I > have all the answers; only that a proper intellectual understanding > is the only basis for development of the path.) > > ----------------------------- Howard: But you *are* implying that you do have proper grasp of the teachings, but I do not. Enjoy. ;-) ===================== With metta, Howard #75005 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Dear Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: I am at times on "unsure ground" too, Sarah -- until 'yathabhuta > dassana' arises. .... S: Of course, there is a)'unsure ground' based on a lack of panna, suggestive of doubt which has been eradicated by the sotapanna and there is b) 'unsure ground' about conceptual terms which any ariyan might share. For example, someone who is enlightened would have no doubt about the dhammas involved, but would not necessarily know what the terms and details of the stages of insight are. ... > Yes, before the development of samaadhi that is marked by the first > jhaana state (Read MN 125 to see what I mean). Thank you for agreeing > with that use of nimitta, Sarah. ... S: I haven't checked MN125 (limited on-line time and no texts here), but we were talking about samma samaadhi of the eightfold path. At moments of enlightenment, the samaadhi is of a degree *equivalent* to that of first jhaana at least, but I'm not sure we can say it is 'marked by the first jhaana'. Maybe just a question of terminology or maybe a reflection of the old debate on whether jhana as basis is a necessity. On nimitta in the context, I'm just following BB's transl and the various translations given in the dict ref you quoted. It's interesting. I may check further at some stage. Metta, Sarah ======== #75006 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) sarahprocter... Hi Tep,. --- Tep Sastri wrote: >S: The first stage is: 1. naama-ruupa paricchedcheda-~naa.na, at which > stage panna clearly understands the distinction between nama and rupa > The second stage is: 2. paccaya-pariggaha-~naana, at which stage, > panna clearly understands the conditioned nature of dhammas. At this > stage, the anatta nature of dhammas is seen more clearly. > > T: Thank you for the Pali terms which help my recallection. Does the > naama-ruupa paricchedcheda-~naa.na correspond to the right 'dassana' > of the cula-sotapanna? ... S: (Without checking), I'm pretty sure it's the second stage above, that of paccaya-pariggaha-~naana (knowledge of conditioned dhammas) which corresponds with the cula-sotapanna's wisdom. It's interesting that at this stage, the defilements have been attenuated to the degree that there will be no more woeful rebirths. I think it indicates the power of wisdom, the clear understanding of conditioned dhammas, of anatta, to affect the development of morality and calm to such a degree. ... > S: As the Vism quote indicates, by clearly understanding that the > occurrence of namas and rupa is due to conditions ... So there is > no more inclination to think with doubt about 'Was I...', 'Will I > be....' Mere dhammas rolling on, due to conditions. No atta involved. > > T: According to MN 2, those questions result from ayoniso-manasikara > that involves thoughts about 'I' in past, future, and present. ... S: Yes, ayoniso-manasikara with wrong view. ... > It is interesting to notice that yoniso-manasikara about the Four > Noble Truths can abandon the lower three fetters, one of which is the > twenty identity views(sakkaaya-ditthi). It is clear this appropriate > attention about the FNTs has "no atta involved" too. ... S: Exactly so. The yoniso-manasikara in this case is with panna to the degree of fully penetrating the 4NT, fully eradicating any idea of self (and all other wrong views) completely. Nicely put. ... > S: Yes, no wise attention when there's any thinking like this, > because it's all about 'Me' or 'Atta', no understanding at such times > about conditioned dhammas. > > T: I agree that wise attention about the FNTs involves conditioned > dhammas. And I believe that in most people such wise attention must > be supported by practice of the magga factors. ... S: What do you mean here by 'in most people.....practice of the magga factors'? .... > > Do you see yoniso-manasikara about the FNTs as just thoughts that > accompany "good listening" with no practice of the Noble eightfold > Path, or both thoughts and practice? ... S: Thoughts and good listening (with yoniso-manasikara) is pariyatti. It can never in itself be the Noble 8fold path or lead to the penetration of the 4NT. However, the pariyatti is essential for the development of practice (patipatti), leading to pativedha (direct knowledge of these). How do you understand 'practice' in your statement and question above? ... > Thank you for the good discussion, Sarah. ... S: Likewise! Btw, in Mike's string of posts that missed the list, there was a one-liner addressed to you to just say how glad he was to read your posts here again. Metta, Sarah ======= #75007 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 3:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - ... > > If mundane jhana was right concentration (and so on for the other > > path factors), then persons who had never heard the teachings could > > be developing the NEP. This cannot be so, as the NEP is a teaching > > peculiar to a Buddha. > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Jon, a requisite condition need not be sufficient! True enough! However, in the case of the NEP, the factors *are* the path. In other words, the 8 factors are both requisite and sufficient. > Conentration is insufficient, and I never claimed otherwise. Here you are referring I think to the series of conditioning factors mentioned in various suttas (i.e., other than the NEP). In this context, "concentration" need not necessarily mean "samatha/jhana" > The investigation of dhammas, for > example, is another critical requisite. Yes, but in the list that includes both concentration and investigation of dhammas, is it said that "concentration" means "samatha/jhana" (and if it is, is the passage describing the special case of attainment of enlightenment with jhana as basis)? Context is all-important. We cannot simply 'transport' the text from the NEP factors and apply it to references to concentration elsewhere. > I, it happens, do not believe the jhanas taught by the Buddha are the > same as the absorptive states taught by his predecessor, or, for that matter, > the same as even some Buddhists assume. The abilities available in Buddhist > jhanas as given in the Anupada Sutta (and also, I believe, in the sutta that > describes the Buddha's awakening) are not available in the absorptive states of > his predecessors. Are the "jhanas taught by the Buddha" something you deduce from these 2 suttas, or are they something described in the texts such that a person would be able to understand from that how the actual development of samatha leading to one kind of jhana differs from the development of samatha leading to the other? If you contemplate "Buddha's jhana" (as distinct from the jhana of his predecessors) then there must also be "Buddha's samatha". > > The key is the understanding of the teachings on the > > > development of the path, regardless one's level of development of > > samatha. Jhana + wrong practice = no insight development. > > > ----------------------------- > Howard: > The Buddha's jhana is part of right practice. It is simply not all of > it. I would consider the Satipatthana Sutta to be one of the best sources of "right practice". What does it tell us about "the Buddha's jhana"? > ------------------------------ > Hence the > > > importance of a proper grasp of the teachings. (I'm not saying I > > have all the answers; only that a proper intellectual understanding > > is the only basis for development of the path.) > > > > > ----------------------------- > Howard: > But you *are* implying that you do have proper grasp of the teachings, > but I do not. Enjoy. ;-) I'm certainly not going to rise to that one ;-)). Jon #75008 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 3:57 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) jonoabb Hi Andrew (and absent Scott) I've enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > Hi Scott ... > Andrew: No, not irony but protection is obviously the wrong word. It > may just be testament to the effect of awareness and panna. Poor > language skills *force* me to reflect thus: "How do you say *go to > hell*?" I reach for the dictionary ... and then I reflect on the > state of my present consciousness and its akusala jati ... and before > too long, I've closed the dictionary and instead of writing "go to > hell, you fool", I write "is that correct? I think the correct answer > is ... because ..." > Saddha arises! I've had similar experiences as you, in the way that trying to express myself in a second language (or express myself to people for whom English is a second language) has made me more aware of some of the different kinds of akusala that are present. It is tempting to think one is able to learn something from these experiences, and no doubt one is to some extent, but it is worth remembering that the latent tendencies that are to blame for the akusala are not thereby reduced one iota! Oh well.. Jon #75009 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 6:07 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn dear friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 11 Txt: Athaaparabhaage kulaghara.m gataa ekadivasa.m saamikassa khetta.m yaagu.m haramaanaa tesa.m attano puttaana.m antare a.t.tha paccekabuddhe bhikkhaacaaravelaaya aakaasena gacchante disvaa siigha.m siigha.m gantvaa saamikassa aarocesi- "passa, ayya, paccekabuddhe, ete nimantetvaa bhojessaamaa"ti So aaha- "sama.nasaku.naa naamete a~n~natthaapi eva.m caranti, na ete paccekabuddhaa"ti te tesa.m kathentaana.myeva aviduure .thaane otari.msu. Saa itthii ta.m divasa.m attano bhattakhajjabhojana.m tesa.m datvaa "svepi a.t.tha janaa mayha.m bhikkha.m ga.nhathaa"ti aaha. "Saadhu, upaasike, tava sakkaaro ettakova hotu, aasanaani ca a.t.theva hontu, a~n~nepi bahuu paccekabuddhe disvaa tava citta.m pasiideyyaasii"ti. Pruitt: She was born in a village outside the gates of the town of Raajagaha where she made her livelihood working with her own hands. Afterwards, she went to the home of a [good] family [in marriage], and one day, when she was bringing gruel to her husband's field, she saw eight Pacceka Buddhas from among those sons of hers going through the sky when they were on their alms rounds. She went very quickly and told her husband, "Sir, look at those Pacceka Buddhas. Let us invite them in and feed them." He said, "They are bird recluses, so they wander elsewhere. They are not Pacceka Buddhas." [The Pacceka Buddhas] descended not far from where they were talking. That woman on that day gave them the food of her own meal. Then she said, "May eight people take their meal with me tomorrow." "Very well, lay follower," they said. "May your hospitality be this much. May you have eight seats. When you see many other Pacceka Buddhas, may your mind be pleased." Saa punadivase a.t.tha aasanaani pa~n~naapetvaa a.t.thanna.m sakkaarasammaana.m pa.tiyaadetvaa nisiidi. Nimantitapaccekabuddhaa sesaana.m sa~n~na.m ada.msu- "maarisaa ajja a~n~nattha agantvaa sabbeva tumhaaka.m maatu sa"ngaha.m karothaa"ti. Te tesa.m vacana.m sutvaa sabbeva ekato aakaasena aagantvaa maatugharadvaare paaturahesu.m. Saapi pa.thama.m laddhasa~n~nataaya bahuupi disvaa na kampittha. Sabbepi te geha.m pavesetvaa aasanesu nisiidaapesi. Tesu pa.tipaa.tiyaa nisiidantesu navamo a~n~naani a.t.tha aasanaani maapetvaa saya.m dhuraasane nisiidati, yaava aasanaani va.d.dhanti, taava geha.m va.d.dhati. Eva.m tesu sabbesupi nisinnesu saa itthii a.t.thanna.m paccekabuddhaana.m pa.tiyaadita.m sakkaara.m pa~ncasataanampi yaavadattha.m datvaa a.t.tha niiluppalahatthake aaharitvaa nimantitapaccekabuddhaana.myeva paadamuule .thapetvaa aaha- "mayha.m, bhante, nibbattanibbatta.t.thaane sariirava.n.no imesa.m niiluppalaana.m antogabbhava.n.no viya hotuu"ti patthana.m akaasi. The next day, she spread out eight seats, made preparations to honour and esteem the eight, and sat down. The Pacceka Buddhas who had been invited made a sign to the others. "Friends," they said, "do not go anywhere else to day. Let all of you render assistance to your mother." Hearing what was said, they all went together through the sky and appeared at the door of their mother's house. Because of the sign she had just received [the day before], she did not tremble when she saw so many. They sat down, one after the other, and each ninth one created another eight seats and sat in the first seat himself. As the seats increased, the house increased as well. When they were all seated in that manner, that woman gave the hospitality that had been prepared for eight Pacceka Buddhas and it was sufficeient for the 500. Then she brought eight handfuls of blue lotuses. She placed them at the feet of the invited Pacceka Buddhas and made an aspiration, saying, "In every place where I am born, venerable sirs, may my body's complexion be like the colour of the hearts inside these blue lotuses." Paccekabuddhaa maatu anumodana.m katvaa gandhamaadana.myeva agama.msu. Saapi yaavajiiva.m kusala.m katvaa tato cutaa devaloke nibbattitvaa imasmi.m buddhuppaade saavatthiya.m se.t.thikule pa.tisandhi.m ga.nhi. Niiluppalagabbhasamaanava.n.nataaya cassaa uppalava.n.naatveva naama.m aka.msu. Athassaa vayappattakaale sakalajambudiipe raajaano ca se.t.thino ca se.t.thissa santika.m duuta.m pahi.ni.msu "dhiitara.m amhaaka.m detuu"ti. Apahi.nanto naama naahosi. Tato se.t.thi cintesi- "aha.m sabbesa.m mana.m gahetu.m na sakkhissaami, upaaya.m paneka.m karissaamii"ti dhiitara.m pakkosaapetvaa "pabbajitu.m, amma, sakkhissasii"ti aaha. The Pacceka Buddhas rejoiced [in the good deeds] of their mother and returned to Gandhamaadana [Mountain]. Throughout her life, she did good actions, then dying there, she was born in a deva world. In this Buddha era, she obtained rebirth in a merchant's home in Saavatthi. And because she had a complexion like the heart of a blue lotus, her name was Uppalava.n.naa ("Lotus complexion"). Then, when she came of age, kings and merchants all over Jambudiipa [India], sent messenger to the merchant saying, "Give us your daughter." There was not one who did not send [a messenger]. Then the merchant thought, "I will not be able to satisfy them all. I must devise a strategem." He summoned his daughter and said, "My dear, you will be able to go forth." RD: In this Buddha-age, she was reborn at Saavatthii as the daughter of the Treasurer. And because her skin was of the colour of the heart *319 of the blue lotus, they called her Uppalava.n.naa. *320 Now, when she was come of age, kings and commoners from the whole of India sent messengers to her father, saying: 'Give us your daughter.' Thereupon the Treasurer thought: 'I cannot possibly meet the wishes of all. I will devise a plan.' And, sending for his daughter, he said: 'Dear one, are you able to leave the world?' *319 Gabbha, or matrix. So also Ang. Nik. Commentary. But cf. Dr. Neumann's note. And below, verse 257. *320 Lotus-hued. The lengthy legend, or chain of legends, associating the past lives of this famous Therii with the lotus-flower is fully translated from the Anguttara Commentary in Mrs. Bode's Women Leaders, etc., J.R.A.S., 1893, 540-551. It is only interesting as folk-lore, and not as illustrating any point in her Psalm, hence is here omitted. ===tbc, connie #75010 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/8/07 6:41:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Jon - > ... > >>If mundane jhana was right concentration (and so on for the other > >>path factors), then persons who had never heard the teachings > could > >>be developing the NEP. This cannot be so, as the NEP is a > teaching > >>peculiar to a Buddha. > > > >-------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Jon, a requisite condition need not be sufficient! > > True enough! However, in the case of the NEP, the factors *are* the > path. In other words, the 8 factors are both requisite and > sufficient. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Not individually. The aggregate of all the factors is sufficient, but no proper subset is. ------------------------------------------- > > >Conentration is insufficient, and I never claimed otherwise. > > Here you are referring I think to the series of conditioning factors > mentioned in various suttas (i.e., other than the NEP). In this > context, "concentration" need not necessarily mean "samatha/jhana" ------------------------------------------ Howard: Right concentration is jhana. ------------------------------------------- > > >The investigation of dhammas, for > >example, is another critical requisite. > > Yes, but in the list that includes both concentration and > investigation of dhammas, is it said that "concentration" means > "samatha/jhana" (and if it is, is the passage describing the special > case of attainment of enlightenment with jhana as basis)? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Right concentration is defined to be the jhanas. ------------------------------------------ > > Context is all-important. We cannot simply 'transport' the text from > the NEP factors and apply it to references to concentration elsewhere. ------------------------------------------ Howard: We do not see this the same way.We are talking a different "language" here, Jon. As far as I'm concerned, the path factors are traits that are cultivated, and not aspects of path consciousness. For me, the path consists of cultivating the 8 path factors over a long period of time. ------------------------------------------- > > > I, it happens, do not believe the jhanas taught by the > Buddha are the > >same as the absorptive states taught by his predecessor, or, for > that matter, > >the same as even some Buddhists assume. The abilities available in > Buddhist > >jhanas as given in the Anupada Sutta (and also, I believe, in the > sutta that > >describes the Buddha's awakening) are not available in the > absorptive states of > >his predecessors. > > Are the "jhanas taught by the Buddha" something you deduce from these > 2 suttas, or are they something described in the texts such that a > person would be able to understand from that how the actual > development of samatha leading to one kind of jhana differs from the > development of samatha leading to the other? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think these suttas are clear, most especially the Anupada Sutta as regards available namas. -------------------------------------------- > > If you contemplate "Buddha's jhana" (as distinct from the jhana of > his predecessors) then there must also be "Buddha's samatha". --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what you are talking about, Jon. Calm is calm. But the jhanas of the Buddha do not seem to me to be bereft of contact, feeling, perception, volition, decision, and attention. The Anupada Sutta says that these are all present in every jhana except the eighth (and ninth). -------------------------------------------- > >>The key is the understanding of the teachings on the > > >>development of the path, regardless one's level of development of > >>samatha. Jhana + wrong practice = no insight development. > >> > >----------------------------- > >Howard: > > The Buddha's jhana is part of right practice. It is simply > not all of > >it. > > I would consider the Satipatthana Sutta to be one of the best sources > of "right practice". What does it tell us about "the Buddha's jhana"? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Satipatthana focusses on investigation of dhammas. Not every sutta deals with everything. Is not right concentration part of right practice, Jon. -------------------------------------------------- > > >------------------------------ > > Hence the > > >>importance of a proper grasp of the teachings. (I'm not saying I > >>have all the answers; only that a proper intellectual > understanding > >>is the only basis for development of the path.) > >> > >> > >----------------------------- > >Howard: > > But you *are* implying that you do have proper grasp of the > teachings, > >but I do not. Enjoy. ;-) > > I'm certainly not going to rise to that one ;-)). > > Jon > ======================== With metta, Howard #75011 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 6:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Scalpel please ashkenn2k Hi Colette there is no two pre-requisites on a same mind, either you are angry or you are jealousy because they are both different mental states with the same unpleasant feelings. If you are saying that jealousy must come together with delusion, then it is correct to say two pre-requisites come together at the exact moment in the same mind. Yes the three mind poisons are the states of the mind poison, in fact it is the taints of these three mind poisons that cause us go merry circle. I would find you the text but not now because I am too tired to find it. hmm I am not good at word playings, whether attainment is the end of the road, it should be or not why do people wants to be Buddha :-) cheers Ken O #75012 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 6:56 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nilovg Dear Scott and Swee Boon, We are all strange, weird, eccentric, unusual, mentally disturbed (this I got from Mike) until we are arahats. The lobha, dosa and moha makes us this way. The latent tendencies are very, very weird. Scott, did you really fell into a pool or was this figurative? Happy camping days, great for your children. Nina. Op 4-aug-2007, om 5:50 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > SB: "I find you a strange and weird person." > > Scott: I'll trade you 'strange' and 'weird' for 'unusual' and > 'eccentric' and we have a deal!! #75013 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 3:13 am Subject: Proper Training as a Contemplative upasaka_howard Hi, all - I have just reread MN 39 at the following ATI link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html I think this sutta gives a marvelous description of what I attempt to make my path of practice. Please note that at each step of the practice given (except the last), it is said that there is more to be done, and the Buddha then continues with the subsequent step. Note that the jhanas is one of the steps to be gone on to. I pass this on for your consideration. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #75014 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) ashkenn2k Hi Connie > When they were sixteen, they played all together in the > royal garden in the festive ponds covered with lotuses, and they > saw young lotuses in bloom and old lotuses with stalks falling > down. > They thought, "If old age comes for something like this that is > not a conscious organism, then how much more so [will it come] for > our bodies. Such will be our destiny here." > Taking that as support [for contemplation], they all produced the > knowledge of awakening by oneself (pacceka-bodhi-~naa.na.m), and > they all rose up and sat cross-legged on top of the lotuses. KO - I like these verse, I remember I heard story of monks become Arahant by looking at teeth. Isnt that wonderful, we never knew when our panna would ripen. (sometime I wish I had just that --- hmm this is lobha :-)) One thousand of them become Arahant just by listening to Buddha sermon the Aditta-pariyaya Sutta so when it was said one cannot simply do not want to grow old by mere wishing....this is call anatta. Since it is not self, hence it leads to afflictions, none could say let my form be thus or let my form not be thus. If we can control our body, we would be Forever Young :-)...this reminds me of a good song....sana and lobha at work :-) Cheers Ken O #75015 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 9:39 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon, > To answer your question another way, there is nothing about the > attainment of jhana per se that predisposes a person towards > enlightenment. Enlightenment is the outcome of highly developed > insight, and insight can only be developed (a) during a Buddha's > dispensation, and (b) by one who has a correct understanding of the > teachings on insight. Jhana + wrong view = no enlightenment! I think FULL Enlightenment is the outcome of highly developed insight as well as highly developed calm. This is evident in the Kimsuka Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.204.than.html Swee Boon #75016 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 9:56 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nidive Hi Sarah, > >SB: .... As I remember the Buddha said somewhere, it takes a > > very long time to really know a person inside & out. > ... > Sarah: Good point! These maybe the suttas you have in mind: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46520 > Sarah:>....from SN3:11 Seven Jatilas briefly on how > it's possible to know someone's virtue, honesty, courage and wisdom: Yes, they are what I have in mind. Thanks! Swee Boon #75017 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 9:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Sarah, Thank you for the answers. > 1.the answer lies in the following paccavekkha.na (reviewing) > cittas in the next process (vithi) of cittas which 'review' the > magga and phala cittas which have just occurred. > > 2. After each process of cittas, there are always bhavanga > (life-continuum) cittas. Now, between each sense-door and mind-door > or each mind-door and next mind-door process, there are bhavanga > cittas. > > 3. As I said, it is the paccavekkha.na cittas which do it. They do > it by way of 'na'vatabba'. This means that the characteristic of > those dhammas is clearly understood as 'present' objects, even > though they have in fact fallen away. Are these cittas a special class of cittas by themselves? > This is also how mental states, cittas and rupas in the mind-door > process are known as 'present objects', even though they too have > fallen away. I wonder if recollection of past lives involves the same mechanism as 'na'vatabba'. What does that Pali word mean anyway? Swee Boon #75018 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 2:39 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah, - Thank you for your time and good consideration. Sarah: Of course, there is a)'unsure ground' based on a lack of panna, suggestive of doubt which has been eradicated by the sotapanna and there is b) 'unsure ground' about conceptual terms which any ariyan might share. For example, someone who is enlightened would have no doubt about the dhammas involved, but would not necessarily know what the terms and details of the stages of insight are. T: That makes sense. I do not expect even the arahants to know how to prove a mathematical theory either. [But if you gave them the basic ideas then they would be able to deliver the best proof.] ............ S: At moments of enlightenment, the samaadhi is of a degree *equivalent* to that of first jhaana at least, but I'm not sure we can say it is 'marked by the first jhaana'. Maybe just a question of terminology or maybe a reflection of the old debate on whether jhana as basis is a necessity. T: You're right about the terminology problem we may have here. To be 'marked by the first jhaana' is my own wording. What I mean to say is: it is the beginning of samaadhi that has both vitakka & vicara. For example, MN 125 (Dantabhumi Sutta) states as follows. "The Tathagata then disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, fare along contemplating the body in the body, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with the body; fare along contemplating the feelings in the feelings... the mind in the mind... mental states in mental states, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with mental states.' "He by allaying initial thought and discursive thought, with the mind subjectively tranquilized and fixed on one point, enters on and abides in the second meditation which is devoid of initial and discursive thought, is born of concentration and is rapturous and joyful. .......... S: On nimitta in the context, I'm just following BB's transl and the various translations given in the dict ref you quoted. It's interesting. I may check further at some stage. T: That sounds very good, Sarah. I trust that your genious in doing research will, without any question, come up with useful findings that will benefit everyone. Tep === #75019 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 3:02 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge kenhowardau Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi KenH (and aother members) - > > A wise friend once said, "There are four types of people. > 1. They think they know but they do not. > 2. They think they know and they really know. > 3. They think they don't know and they don't know. > 4. They think they don't know but they actually know. > So, only 50% of people have the right knowing. > Sorry to disagree right from the start, Tep, but I don't see much wisdom in that. What is it that these people either know or don't know? How did your friend arrive at the figure, 50%? Can you give an example of where a person thinks he doesn't know, but actually knows? You made no comment on any of my answers to your questions. Instead you wrote: ------------ > I am sorry to disappoint you, Ken. But any conversation is a two- way street. When there two different interpretations of the Dhamma, you have to have the right vision (yathabhuta dassana) in order to make a correct judgement. You seem to believe that you have the right vision and any view that is not exactly as yours must be wrong. In the future you are welcome to butt into any conversation I may have with anyone here anytime, Ken. Your argument will always be treated politely with no insult or blaming, regardless of the qualities of your opinion. Tep > ------------- Hmm, I'm not sure what that means, but I gather I got nowhere with you. :-) You remind me of a former DSG member (before your time, I think) called Victor. He adopted Thanissaro's 'Anatta as Strategy' line. No amount of reasoning (and we tried really hard for years!) had any effect on him. Like you, he would point to the suttas where they referred to 'person' 'myself' 'yourself' 'them' 'us' 'Rahula' (etc.) and claim it was proof that people and selves really existed. No amount of reasoning will ever shift that kind of belief, and I think you are just as immoveable as Victor was. The last I heard of him, he was seeking ordination under Ven. T at Wat Metta. I wish him well, but I would much rather he sought ordination at a Christian monastery. If someone wants to believe in a soul that lives happily ever after they should turn to a religion that teaches that. Why would anyone want to pervert the beautiful, unique, Dhamma into just another eternity belief? Ken H #75020 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 3:48 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Hi KenO, > When they were sixteen, they played all together in the > royal garden in the festive ponds covered with lotuses, and they > saw young lotuses in bloom and old lotuses with stalks falling > down. > They thought, "If old age comes for something like this that is > not a conscious organism, then how much more so [will it come] for > our bodies. Such will be our destiny here." c: Here's another one ppl like to argue about: whether or not plants are sentient beings! I don't suppose it's something we need to know. My kid just says she doesn't eat anything that used to have friends. She and her family were visiting me the last few days. > Taking that as support [for contemplation], they all produced the > knowledge of awakening by oneself (pacceka-bodhi-~naa.na.m), and > they all rose up and sat cross-legged on top of the lotuses. KO - I like these verse, I remember I heard story of monks become Arahant by looking at teeth. Isnt that wonderful, we never knew when our panna would ripen. (sometime I wish I had just that --- hmm this is lobha :-)) One thousand of them become Arahant just by listening to Buddha sermon the Aditta-pariyaya Sutta so when it was said one cannot simply do not want to grow old by mere wishing....this is call anatta. Since it is not self, hence it leads to afflictions, none could say let my form be thus or let my form not be thus. If we can control our body, we would be Forever Young :-)...this reminds me of a good song....sana and lobha at work :-) c: and if it were controllable, i'd never choose to feel like crying. Boo hoo! The kids were still here when I left for work this morning and now it's just me and the dog... and cat, but she is mostly outdoors. Sanya with Lobha and Dosa, yes, & here, on my part, Heavy on the delusional! I actually believe things I'd rather not admit, but maybe that's part of why some say 'confession is good for the soul'... which could also be an example of thatta (= 'that there') kind of belief. Dunno, tho, I never really cared all that much for being young, either. Not for long anyway! Discontentment creeps in. Who is ever going to learn to be content with little with all of that? you don't even know you have wishes until they get made, I guess... and what comes true? affliction. and there we are. jeez! and to think I actually blew both my chances to drown yesterday in the big pond we call omak lake. next time I'd like to try a kite instead of tubing. fast boat, BIG kite. peace. #75021 From: "colette" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 3:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Scalpel please ksheri3 Hi Ken, Why do I have to possess negative characterristics? ARe you unable to possess negativity? Is Negativity only something that others that are beneath you ab le to possess? <...> So, I've gotta bit jealous and/or angry. Jealousy is a nourishment, like money is a fertilizer, for the root cause. Jealousy is an emotion. Emotions are not tangible and are entirely INTERNAL which clearly shows that jealousy is contained in a Vessel, could even be a Hermetic Vessel. As long as jealousy exists and festers then it feeds something else. Anger, Dosa, is quite the same although anger tends to generate a lot of chemicals in the body that play havoc with the micro-processor, I mean brain, mind. The delusion is a result, a fruit, of the negative emotions, and well, you rich suckers seem to go on your merry way of hallucinations everyday don't you? <...> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Hi Colette > > there is no two pre-requisites on a same mind, either you are angry > or you are jealousy because they are both different mental states > with the same unpleasant feelings. If you are saying that jealousy > must come together with delusion, then it is correct to say two > pre-requisites come together at the exact moment in the same mind. > > Yes the three mind poisons are the states of the mind poison, in fact > it is the taints of these three mind poisons that cause us go merry > circle. I would find you the text but not now because I am too tired > to find it. > > hmm I am not good at word playings, whether attainment is the end of > the road, it should be or not why do people wants to be Buddha :-) <...> #75022 From: "colette" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 4:42 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) ksheri3 Hi connie, I loved your response below but I've gotta ask why is it worth even putting up with? I mean you know Ken is exactly duplicated from all the otehr beggars that sit in their lofty towers with their wealth and the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS A TINKERS DAMN IS KEEPING THEIR WEALTH. Buddhism is nothing but a trivial pursuit in their suburban nightmare. They focus on ONE THING, on ONE SUTTA, on ONE CONCEPT, ect. and that's the extent of their recognition that buddhism even exists. by playing with them and feeding their delusions you simply lower yourself to submission and obedience to their WRONG VIEWS, which is the definition of SLAVERY. Challange them, place them in Jeopardy where no decision surely means Death. I've had some very good relations going in my time spent on the buddhist traditions, Tep first showed me he realizes that the mind is a major part of this when we discussed the states of consciousness, Larry a good jester to banty around with, love ya man if you're out there listening, Scott and Howard both have great qualities that brought me many a night's joy contemplating "WHAT?". But it all gets back down to the root and when push comes to shove they will all CLING TO their delusions and not give rise to any potential competition to their delusion which just means that they can't allow another taking their status, their position, since they transffer their delusions of status in a community to the status here in buddhism. This past weekend I've had it, I've got no support from any person outside of a two dimensional cheap talkin' world, I have no contact with any person that I choose , no money to do anything aother than listen to the people upstairs and their chidlren mock me as if my name was STEP & FETCHIT. Community, huh, there is no community outside of the greed and sloth of the single minded and they are the most prevelent posters here in the buddhist community. <...> The Individuals have to learn for themselves that they are part of a larger picture, see Buddha-nature, or see the Divine Sparks of the Kaballah, but they've gotta stop thinkin' of ME. Nothing is ME they've gotta start thinking in terms of WE. Now, if I'm part of the picture then I can do very little since society here in chicago will not allow me to have income over the povery line. So, if ya think you can lay the blame on me for that one then you'll have to check out the employers that I've tried since 1978 and have been soundly denied the right to live. gotta go, thanx for the good post! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > Hi KenO, > > > When they were sixteen, they played all together in the > > royal garden in the festive ponds covered with lotuses, and they > > saw young lotuses in bloom and old lotuses with stalks falling > > down. > > They thought, "If old age comes for something like this that is > > not a conscious organism, then how much more so [will it come] for > > our bodies. Such will be our destiny here." > > c: Here's another one ppl like to argue about: whether or not plants are sentient beings! I don't suppose it's something we need to know. My kid just says she doesn't eat anything that used to have friends. She and her family were visiting me the last few days. <...> #75023 From: "m_nease" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 6:37 pm Subject: Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas m_nease Hi Sarah, Thanks for this--I have no doubt at all of the importance of the vipallaasas. In fact I think they're often underestimated, especially sa~n~na vipallaasa, in 'favor' of e.g. micchaadi.t.thi. I was only surprised to read that they arise with ALL akusala cittas. This makes them even more important than I had thought. Thanks again for all the good citations. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 12:28 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas Hi Mike (& Han), One of Mike's messages that didn't make it to the list was this: > Hi Sarah (and Han), > > >Sarah: I think it's important to remember that sanna and citta vipallasas arise >> with all akusala cittas #75024 From: stephen jackson Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 7:19 pm Subject: Hello and intro sjackson07513 Hello, Thank for the chance to introduce myself and share in the group. After some explorations I have settled down in Theravadin Buddhism. I love the Suttas. My own practice is anchored in the 4 protective meditations. I would be intersted in sharing thoughts on practice especially pertinent and fruitful for laypersons. I am by profession a Registered Nurse specializing in psychiatric care. With metta, Steve #75025 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 9:00 pm Subject: original relic leoaive Hi Some time ago, I have seen in one book on Indian religions that Buddha on being asked how Buddhist Art should be done, Buddha replied that it should be done on cloth. Later, I was reading Vinaya and it says that color of body should be golden. I was searching long time for Buddha on fabric with golden body and orange robes. And possibly with a tree and grass. And I can not find anything like that. Even if I look long time, it is not helpfull. Do you know anyone who is selling such a piece of art? If you do, please let me know. With Metta Leo #75026 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello and intro sarahprocter... Hi Stephen, Welcome to DSG and thank you for kindly introducing yourself. --- stephen jackson wrote: > After some explorations I have settled down in > Theravadin Buddhism. I love the Suttas. My own > practice is anchored in the 4 protective meditations. > I would be intersted in sharing thoughts on practice > especially pertinent and fruitful for laypersons. I > am by profession a Registered Nurse specializing in > psychiatric care. With metta, Steve ... S: Pls do share any of your thoughts and reflections as you suggest. Either start a new thread anytime or jump into an ongoing one. Thx for also mentioning your profession. Where do you live/work? There are a few of us who have backgrounds in psychiatric/psychological areas, so share any thoughts relating Theravadin Buddhism to your work too. I'll look forward to talking to you later. Metta, Sarah ======== #75027 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 8, 2007 11:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello and intro nilovg Dear Stephen, welcome to dsg. Thank you for your interesting intro. Sharing thoughts on practice: what is your opinion on the practice the Buddha taught? Nina. Op 9-aug-2007, om 4:19 heeft stephen jackson het volgende geschreven: > I would be intersted in sharing thoughts on practice > especially pertinent and fruitful for laypersons. #75028 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 1:03 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > I've had similar experiences as you, in the way that trying to > express myself in a second language (or express myself to people for > whom English is a second language) has made me more aware of some of > the different kinds of akusala that are present. > > It is tempting to think one is able to learn something from these > experiences, and no doubt one is to some extent, but it is worth > remembering that the latent tendencies that are to blame for the > akusala are not thereby reduced one iota! Hi Jon You're making a big assumption here, namely that I'm not an Ariyan! Want some more time to think about that? LOL! Seriously, a good (shattering?) reminder ... thanks. Best wishes Andrew #75029 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 1:34 am Subject: Synopsis of MN 39 upasaka_howard Hi, all - The following is my synopsis of this sutta. ______________________________________ The Buddha says to certain monks that when asked, they describe thenselves as "contemplatives", and that for this to be a correct self-description, this is how they should act: 1) Train themselves to have conscience and concern. (But more is needed.) 2) Train themselves to act morally with their bodies.(But more is neede.) 3) Train themselves to act morally with their speech. (But more is needed.) 4) Maintain a pure livelihood. (But more is needed.) 5) Guard the sense doors; i.e., engage in right effort. (But more is needed.) 6) Be moderate in eating. (But more is needed.) 7) Maintain wakeful alertness, even at night, engaging in sitting and walking mindfulness practice, and only during the second watch of the night allow lying down, and even that done mindfully. (But more is needed.) 8) During all activities, act with alertness, being mindful of all physical states. (But more is needed.) 9) While sitting, hold the hindrances at bay, and enter the four jhanas. 10) With the mind made ready by the 4th jhana, direct the mind toward: a) recollection of past lives, b) the death and rebirth of beings , c) the four noble truths, the ending of the fermentations, and release. With metta, Howard #75030 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 6:17 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 12 txt: Tassaa pacchimabhavikattaa pitu vacana.m siise aasittasatapaakatela.m viya ahosi. Tasmaa pitara.m "pabbajissaami, taataa"ti aaha. So tassaa sakkaara.m katvaa bhikkhunupassaya.m netvaa pabbaajesi. Tassaa acirapabbajitaaya eva uposathaagaare kaalavaaro paapu.ni. Saa padiipa.m jaaletvaa uposathaagaara.m sammajjitvaa diipasikhaaya nimitta.m ga.nhitvaa .thitaava punappuna.m olokayamaanaa tejokasi.naaramma.na.m jhaana.m nibbattetvaa tadeva paadaka.m katvaa arahatta.m paapu.ni. Arahattaphalena saddhi.myeva ca abhi~n~naapa.tisambhidaapi ijjhi.msu. Visesato pana iddhivikubbane ci.n.navasii ahosi. Pruitt: Because this was her last birth, her father's voice was like having oil refined a hundred times poured over her head. Therefore she said to her father, "I will go forth, papa." He honoured her, led her to the bhikkhuniis' monastery, and she went forth. Shortly after going forth, her turn came in the observance hall. She lit the lamps, swept the observance hall, and took the flame of a lamp as a sign. She stood there, observed it again and again, and produced an absorption state with the fire kasi.na as support. Making that her basis, she attained Arahatship. Together with the ruition state of Arahatship, she succeeded in discrimination and direct knowledge. But she excelled as one who has mastery of transformation by supernormal power. RD: To her, because she was in her final stage of life, his words were as if oil a hundred times refined had anointed her head. Therefore she said: 'Dear father, I will renounce the world!' He, honouring her, brought her to the Bhikkhuniis' quarters, and let her be ordained. A little while afterwards it became her turn for office in the house of the Sabbath. *321 And, lighting the lamp, she swept the room. Then taking the flame of the lamp as a visible sign, and contemplating it continually, she brought about Jhana by way of the Lambent Artifice, *322 and making that her stepping-stone, she attained Arahantship. With its fruition, intuition and grasp of the Norm were achieved, and she became especially versed in the mystic potency of transformation. *323 *321 Uposathaagaare kaalavaaro paapu.ni, a phrase I have not yet met with elsewhere. *322 See Buddhist Psy., 43, n. 4; 57, n. 2; 58. *323 The standard description of the modes of Iddhi are given in English in Rhys Davids' Dialogues of the Buddha, i. 277. ===tbc, connie #75031 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Synopsis of MN 39 nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you for the sutta. Op 9-aug-2007, om 14:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha says to certain monks that when asked, they describe > thenselves as "contemplatives", and that for this to be a correct > self-description, > this is how they should act: > > 1) Train themselves to have conscience and concern. (But more is > needed.) -------- N: The Co. is very long, but I read the beginning: they have to train themselves to be samanas, recluses. Hiri, shame, and ottappa,fear of blame are samana dhammas. The duties of recluses. A III, 371, speaks about samana dhammas: 'A recluse returns not the insult of the insulter, the anger of the angry, the abuse of the abuser- thus keeps a recluse recluse-dhamma.' Here is already much to be contemplated. When we are with others we speak all the time. And also on internet we speak as it were. Good speech can be fulfilled by satipatthana. One can become an understanding person; understanding that one's own and others' accumulations are conditioned. When others are angry, there are conditions for it and nobody can prevent them from being hurtful. There has to be a refined discrimination of one's cittas, akusala citta and kusala citta. This can be gradually learnt by satipatthana. It is so easy to retort anger with anger, speech is uttered so quickly. But we learn to see how ugly dosa is. Hiri and ottappa keep one from akusala. They arise with every kusala citta, they are indispensable for the performing of each kind of kusala through body, speech and mind. We need pa~n~naa all the time, it accompanies sati of satipatthana. Even this one short passage is an exhortation not to be forgetful, but to develop satipatthana, right understanding of whatever reality appears through one of the six doors. When there is a harsh sound to be heard, it is only sound appearing through the ears. Sound is heard, not the voice of an angry person, that is the object of thinking. Thinking and hearing each experience their own objcet, they are quite different. Thinking can be done with kusala citta or with akusala citta. The co. continues: what is recluseship? The ariyan eightfold Path. The benefit of being a recluse is the end of lobha, dosa and moha. Magga and phala, fruition, are are the benefits of recluseship. The Buddha describes the fulfilment of the life of the perfect recluse: it never is enough until he reaches arahatship. Satipatthana has to be developed all the way, without it he will not reach the goal. Thus with each of the phases described in this sutta there has to be sati sampaja~n~na, sati and pa~n~naa, awareness and understanding of paramattha dhammas, so that the goal will be reached. Nina. #75032 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 7:53 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 9, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Citta is postnascence-condition for the previously arisen rúpas of the body which have been produced by the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition and which have not fallen away yet. Citta supports and consolidates these rúpas. The patisandhi-citta cannot be postnascence-condition, since there is no previously arisen rúpa at the first moment of life. At the first moment of life kamma produces rúpas simultaneously with the patisandhi-citta, but after that, throughout our life, citta is postnascence-condition for the previously arisen rúpas of the body. The five pairs of sense- cognitions do not produce rúpa, but they condition the previously arisen rúpas of the body by way of postnascence, they consolidate these [1]. The arúpåvara vipåkacittas [2] which arise in the arúpa- brahma planes cannot be postnascence-condition, since there is no rúpa in those planes. In the case of base and object which are prenascence-condition, rúpa conditions nåma, whereas in the case of postnascence-condition nåma conditions rúpa. The teaching of prenascence-condition, purejåta- paccaya, conascence-condition, sahajåta-paccaya, and postnascence- condition, pacchajåta-paccaya, reminds us of the intricacy of the relationship between different phenomena. Seeing, for example, is the result of kamma and it is dependent on the previously arisen eye-base which is also produced by kamma. Seeing experiences visible object which has previously arisen but which does not last longer than seventeen moments of citta. There is no self who could arrange for seeing to find its proper base; the eye-base has previously arisen and is already there when seeing arises. There is no self who could fetch visible object at the right moment so that seeing can see it and the other cittas of the eye-door process can also experience it, before it falls away. Visible object arises together in a group of rúpas including the four Great Elements and these condition it by way of dependence-condition, nissaya-paccaya, and by conascence- condition, sahajåta-paccaya, but seeing does not experience the other rúpas which arise together with visible object; it only sees visible object, that is, what appears through eyesense. Several conditions coincide and this makes it possible for seeing to arise at the eye- base and to see visible object. We take the experiences which occur time and again in our daily life for granted, but they all are dependent on several conditions, they are interrelated in different ways. Cittas and the rúpas of the body are interrelated, they need one another. Seeing and the other cittas support and consolidate the rúpas of the body which have already arisen, they condition them by way of post-nascence. The different conditions for the phenomena of our life are operating right at this moment. Shortly before death kamma does not produce the heart-base anymore. The cittas arising shortly before death are depending on one last heart-base and this ceases with the ceasing of the dying- consciousness. When there is the simultaneous arising of the heart- base and citta there is birth and when there is the simultaneous ceasing of the heart-base and citta there is death. The dying- consciousness produces rúpa (except in the case of the arahat) and this lasts only seventeen moments of citta. At death, also nutrition ceases to produce rúpa and only temperature, which produces rúpas both in the body and in dead matter, keeps on producing rúpas of the corpse that is left. All this reminds us of the frailty of life which consists of only nåma and rúpa depending on conditions. --------- 1.The cittas which produce rúpa condition their arising by way of conascence-condition and dependence-condition, see Ch 5 and 6. As explained, the five sense-cognitions of seeing, hearing, etc., do not produce rúpas, but they consolidate the rúpas which have been produced before by one of the four factors. 2. These cittas are the results of arúpa-jhåna and they perform the function of rebirth and of bhavanga. ******** Nina. #75033 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 7:57 am Subject: Asoka, intro 4. nilovg Dear friends, It was festival time for the Hindus, Durka Pújå. On this occasion processions were held in the villages with the statues of the deities which were venerated and at the end of the festival the statues were thrown into the river so that they would float to the sea. We had several rainy days: in Nålanda where we visited the Thai monastery; when we climbed the Vulture’s Peak (Gijjhakúìa) near Råjagaha; when we walked in the Bamboo Grove (Veîuvana); when we were in Bodh Gaya. Vulture’s Peak is on one of the five hills encircling the old city of Råjagaha. The Buddha used to stay here and once, when he was walking on the slopes, Devadatta hurled down a large rock in order to kill him. However, only a splinter hurt his foot. We walked around in the Bamboo Grove near Råjagaha where the Buddha preached the Discourse on the three characteristics of realities: impermanence, dukkha (suffering) and anattå. When we were in Bodh Gaya, the place of the Buddha’s enlightenment, we walked in the rain on wet pavement while going around the place near the Bodhi-tree three times. Usually many pilgrims of different nationalities walk around but this time the place was quite deserted because of the rain. This reminded Khun Sujin of the time which will come in the future when the teachings will decline and then disappear. Khun Sujin gave Dhamma talks on the way as much as she could. Sometimes the discussions were in the hotels and sometimes outside when we could sit on the grounds. At the Cremation Stupa near Kusinåra and in the Jeta Grove, near Såvatthí, we went on with the discussions until after dark. In the bus we listened to tapes referring to the holy places and tapes about phenomena as they appear through the senses and the mind-door, about all the realities the Buddha taught. Ell Walsh was holding the tape recorder all day in the bus so that we were able to listen. She helped all of us in many ways. For the writing of this book I used the discussions we held, material from tapes and from the scriptures and commentaries we discussed. I greatly appreciate Khun Sujin’s untiring efforts to explain the Dhamma, exhorting us to verify the Dhamma ourselves. She was stressing all the time that the Dhamma is not theory, that it has to be realized by being mindful of realities at this very moment. She showed us time and again that only through the development of satipaììhåna we can have direct understanding of realities. I also appreciate the many explanations of Påli terms Acharn Somporn gave, reminding us that these refer to the reality appearing now. ******** Nina. #75034 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 8:03 am Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative abhidhammika Dear Howard W, Nina, Scott D, Mike N, Robert K, Christine F How are you? I come to have reservations about this group (dhammastudygroup) being a genuine proper Theravada group because I came to notice some wrong speeches (as reported by Ken H) of K Sujin who has been portrayed to be someone who is against formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa. A true follower of Theravada would never do such a thing. As she is merely a lay householder, she is not a siilavanta (a Buddhist nun) and cannot represent proper Theravada teachings. As reported by her students or sympathisers, she seems to have been generalizing her lay narrow householder views, and peddling them through these people. I have been watching you, Howard, trying your best to speak on behalf of formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa (Sama.na Dhamma in commentary parlance) even though you are a householder yourself. Let me recite "Saadhu, Saadhu, Saadhu" for your defense of Sama.na Dhamma. When Sama.na Dhamma has been finally and universally reduced to informal partial lay householder practices (mindfulness or otherwise), Sakyamuni Gotama's Saasanaa (Theravada Taming System) will vanish. Only Sama.na Dhamma can protect Gotama the Buddha's Dhamma Vinaya Saasanaa. Informal, partial, lay, householder practices of mindfulness cannot save Gotama the Buddha's Theravada Saasanaa. Thank you for your Sama.na Dhamma efforts, and please do keep up the noble work. When I have spare time and energy, I will send some heavy Dhamma guns and amunitions as re-enforcement. Patience is always desirable! With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #75035 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 8:56 am Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative buddhatrue Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Howard W, Nina, Scott D, Mike N, Robert K, Christine F > > How are you? > > I come to have reservations about this group (dhammastudygroup) > being a genuine proper Theravada group because I came to notice some > wrong speeches (as reported by Ken H) of K Sujin who has been > portrayed to be someone who is against formal practice of samatha > and vipassanaa. A true follower of Theravada would never do such a > thing. As she is merely a lay householder, she is not a siilavanta > (a Buddhist nun) and cannot represent proper Theravada teachings. As > reported by her students or sympathisers, she seems to have been > generalizing her lay narrow householder views, and peddling them > through these people. Ouch! Awfully strong words. Reminds me of something I would write! ;-)). I have often wondered about something: would K. Sujin become a Buddhist nun if she was able to do so? After all, the Bhikkhuni Sangha is defunct in Thailand (Theravada) and evidently has no chance of being reborn due to Vinaya rules. Would KS become a nun if she could? Do others view her as a Buddhist nun who can't become a nun? Does she view herself as a Buddhist nun who can't truly become a nun? These are all interesting and relevant questions, I believe. As far as if K.S. is peddling her householder views against formal meditation through the members of this group, that is very hard to say. Nina represents her as saying one thing; Sarah represents her as saying something else; Ken H. represents her as saying something entirely different from the others. Actually, it is quite ridiculous when you consider it. KS is like the 'Phantom Menace' to DSG and it would be very helpful if she, herself, began posting to DSG. (If Nina can do it, so can KS!). Additionally, my viewpoint, after years of DSG participation and considering what everyone posts about her, is that she isn't against formal meditation, she just believes it is only suited for very rare and elevated individuals (a nebulous classification which doesn't correspond to the paths and fruits and can't be found in the texts). Additionally, she believes that meditation isn't a necessary component of the Noble Eightfold Path as there is the path of the "Dry Insight Worker" who, she mistakenly believes, doesn't practice any type of formal meditation. This is based on a faulty reading/interpretation of the texts, as the Vipassanasukha does achieve the first jhana (according to the Vism.). This difference in viewpoint probably won't ever be resolved so it fuels endless DSG discussion. No reason, Suan, to pass judgement and avoid those who you believe misrepresent the Dhamma. Rather than praise Howard for defending the Dhamma, participate yourself in DSG and patiently point out the inconsistencies in interpretation of Dhamma as you see them. Metta, James #75036 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 9:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from America buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: That would be a good idea. I expect you'll be returning around the end > of this month? James: I will be back in Taiwan in about a week. > ... > S: Actually, even when I lived in London, I wasn't a 'regular'. I also > used to occasionally visit and offer dana at other temples too. In Hong > Kong, we've seldom visited the Buddhist temples here for various reasons, > one being that none of them are Theravada temples, another being that > until recently we've both always been working 6 days a week and preferred > rest and to get into the countryside on Sundays. I think it also makes a > difference being two of us - never short of Dhamma company! And then > there's DSG....! James: I don't think that DSG is an adequate substitute for visiting a Buddhist temple. It is important to be in close proximity with those who follow the Dhamma. I'm not judging you and Jon, I am just pointing this out for the benefit of other members. Those who live in isolation from anyone who practices the Dhamma (a real, live person) should do whatever possible to change that isolation. > ... > > James: Sure, no problem. Thanks for your response. :-) > ... > S: Send another e-card if you have time. James: Sorry, nothing else to post about. Will post from the booklet when I get back to Taiwan. Metta, James #75037 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Synopsis of MN 39 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/9/07 10:46:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Thank you for the sutta. ----------------------------------- Howard: :-) --------------------------------- > Op 9-aug-2007, om 14:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >The Buddha says to certain monks that when asked, they describe > >thenselves as "contemplatives", and that for this to be a correct > >self-description, > >this is how they should act: > > > >1) Train themselves to have conscience and concern. (But more is > >needed.) > -------- > N: The Co. is very long, but I read the beginning: they have to train > themselves to be samanas, recluses. Hiri, shame, and ottappa,fear of > blame are samana dhammas. The duties of recluses. > A III, 371, speaks about samana dhammas: 'A recluse returns not the > insult of the insulter, the anger of the angry, the abuse of the > abuser- thus keeps a recluse recluse-dhamma.' > > Here is already much to be contemplated. When we are with others we > speak all the time. And also on internet we speak as it were. Good > speech can be fulfilled by satipatthana. One can become an > understanding person; understanding that one's own and others' > accumulations are conditioned. When others are angry, there are > conditions for it and nobody can prevent them from being hurtful. > There has to be a refined discrimination of one's cittas, akusala > citta and kusala citta. This can be gradually learnt by satipatthana. > It is so easy to retort anger with anger, speech is uttered so > quickly. But we learn to see how ugly dosa is. Hiri and ottappa keep > one from akusala. They arise with every kusala citta, they are > indispensable for the performing of each kind of kusala through body, > speech and mind. > We need pa~n~naa all the time, it accompanies sati of satipatthana. > Even this one short passage is an exhortation not to be forgetful, > but to develop satipatthana, right understanding of whatever reality > appears through one of the six doors. When there is a harsh sound to > be heard, it is only sound appearing through the ears. Sound is > heard, not the voice of an angry person, that is the object of > thinking. Thinking and hearing each experience their own objcet, they > are quite different. Thinking can be done with kusala citta or with > akusala citta. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that this is already much to be contemplated. It is one of the things that I am working on. And yes, one needs to be aware of one's inclination to react with anger. I am very much aware of that in myself. The awareness is a beginning. Guarding the mind-door to see the inclination about to express itself "in the moment" and let it go without reaction is the necessary continuation. Also needed as background support is ongoing cultivation not only of mindfulness and insight but also of calm. ------------------------------------------ > The co. continues: what is recluseship? The ariyan eightfold Path. > The benefit of being a recluse is the end of lobha, dosa and moha. > Magga and phala, fruition, are are the benefits of recluseship. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, the eventual benefits. ------------------------------------------ > The Buddha describes the fulfilment of the life of the perfect > recluse: it never is enough until he reaches arahatship. Satipatthana > has to be developed all the way, without it he will not reach the > goal. Thus with each of the phases described in this sutta there has > to be sati sampaja~n~na, sati and pa~n~naa, awareness and > understanding of paramattha dhammas, so that the goal will be reached. > Nina. > > ======================= With metta, Howard #75038 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 9:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Howard, > I, it happens, do not believe the jhanas taught by the Buddha are > the same as the absorptive states taught by his predecessor, or, > for that matter, the same as even some Buddhists assume. The > abilities available in Buddhist jhanas as given in the Anupada > Sutta (and also, I believe, in the sutta that describes the > Buddha's awakening) are not available in the absorptive states of > his predecessors. I think you have a very good point here that needs serious studying! In the Anupada Sutta, there is no requirement of emerging from the jhanas (except the last two) before one can begin the investigation of dhammas. I am also puzzled as to why the four immaterial jhanas are not included as Right Concentration, yet it is mentioned in the Anupada Sutta. Right Concentration must take one of the four frames of reference as its theme. This means that all of the items in DN 22 are capable of leading to the first four jhanas provided we "remain focused". I postulate that this type of jhana that takes the four frames of reference as its theme has a different sort of characteristics from the pre-Buddha type of jhanas. The pre-Buddha type of jhanas focus on the wrong frames of reference. Kasinas are not included in the four frames of reference, yet we read of kasina absorption as a means of practicing samatha. There are ten types of kasinas as pointed out by the Buddha: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72600 earth, water, fire, wind, blue, yellow, red, white, space, consciousness. Absorption into jhanas using these kasina devices lead to wrong samatha ('dead' samatha!) and nil insight! It's a dead end indeed. Even though one may go on to achieve the dimension of nothingness and the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, it's still a dead end because there is no support of Right Mindfulness. One can only expect a supreme rebirth in a supreme destination. In contrast, the Buddha's jhanas that takes the theme of the four frames of reference allows an advanced form of samatha that is capable of allowing insight investigation at the same time. With this advanced form of fourth jhana as support, Sariputta is capable of entering the dimensions of space, consiousness and nothingness and still retain the ability to investigate dhammas right within those jhana states. This all boils down to Right Concentration and Wrong Concentration, I think. A person with Right Concentration enters the immaterial dimensions for the sake of relinquishment, but a person with Wrong Concentration enters the immaterial dimensions for the sake of piling up! Swee Boon #75039 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 8/9/07 1:47:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > >I, it happens, do not believe the jhanas taught by the Buddha are > >the same as the absorptive states taught by his predecessor, or, > >for that matter, the same as even some Buddhists assume. The > >abilities available in Buddhist jhanas as given in the Anupada > >Sutta (and also, I believe, in the sutta that describes the > >Buddha's awakening) are not available in the absorptive states of > >his predecessors. > > I think you have a very good point here that needs serious studying! > > In the Anupada Sutta, there is no requirement of emerging from the > jhanas (except the last two) before one can begin the investigation > of dhammas. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly so! The same is true in other suttas as well, including the one which describes the night that Gotama became a Buddha. BTW, do you or anyone else here know what sutta that is? (I've asked before but no one replied.) ----------------------------------------- > > I am also puzzled as to why the four immaterial jhanas are not > included as Right Concentration, yet it is mentioned in the Anupada > Sutta. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I've heard it said that the jhanas above the 4th are variants of the 4th, not differing in factors but only in object-content. ----------------------------------------- > > Right Concentration must take one of the four frames of reference as > its theme. This means that all of the items in DN 22 are capable of > leading to the first four jhanas provided we "remain focused". I > postulate that this type of jhana that takes the four frames of > reference as its theme has a different sort of characteristics from > the pre-Buddha type of jhanas. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I think so. Also, I think that one should not minimize the power of mind-door functioning. I suspect that in the Buddhist jhanas there are namic capabilities that far outrun those accompanying ordinary mind-door consciousness. Consider, just as an example, the "seeing" of beings dying and being reborn. -------------------------------------------- > > The pre-Buddha type of jhanas focus on the wrong frames of reference. > Kasinas are not included in the four frames of reference, yet we read > of kasina absorption as a means of practicing samatha. There are ten > types of kasinas as pointed out by the Buddha: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72600 > > earth, water, fire, wind, blue, yellow, red, white, space, > consciousness. > > Absorption into jhanas using these kasina devices lead to wrong > samatha ('dead' samatha!) and nil insight! It's a dead end indeed. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Unless, of course, the mind-door object switches from the kasina to the thinking that produces it. ---------------------------------------- > > Even though one may go on to achieve the dimension of nothingness and > the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, it's still a > dead end because there is no support of Right Mindfulness. One can > only expect a supreme rebirth in a supreme destination. --------------------------------------- Howard: Again, unless the mind-door object switches away from the projected concept to the mind itself that produces that concept. -------------------------------------- > > In contrast, the Buddha's jhanas that takes the theme of the four > frames of reference allows an advanced form of samatha that is > capable of allowing insight investigation at the same time. ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, calm and clarity along with the capacity to direct attention and see clearly what is going on. And there are paramattha dhammas among mind-door objects, not just concepts. You have actually hit on here what is my main point: There is no indication in any sutta that I have seen that investigation of dhammas cannot be carried out while in jhana. In fact, a straightforward reading of relevant suttas is that it certainly can be. It is true, I believe, that in the jhanas no door is operative except the mind door, but that is no problem at all, for the mind has enormous capacity beyond that of apprehending pa~n~natti. ---------------------------------------- > > With this advanced form of fourth jhana as support, Sariputta is > capable of entering the dimensions of space, consiousness and > nothingness and still retain the ability to investigate dhammas right > within those jhana states. ------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly! ------------------------------------ > > This all boils down to Right Concentration and Wrong Concentration, I > think. A person with Right Concentration enters the immaterial > dimensions for the sake of relinquishment, but a person with Wrong > Concentration enters the immaterial dimensions for the sake of piling > up! ----------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. The Buddhist jhanas are not mere blissful trances lacking capacity for will and insight. ----------------------------------------- > > Swee Boon > > > > ======================= With metta, Howard #75040 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative nilovg Dear Suan, I read your post and I think it good to consider what James writes here. Op 9-aug-2007, om 17:56 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > No reason, Suan, to pass judgement and > avoid those who you believe misrepresent the Dhamma. Rather than > praise Howard for defending the Dhamma, participate yourself in DSG > and patiently point out the inconsistencies in interpretation of > Dhamma as you see them. ------------ N: Suan, the matter is really more complex. I believe that you do not understand what Kh Sujin always emphasizes: see anatta, do not have an idea of self who practises. The goal of the teachings is detachment. But lobha follows us everywhere and makes us impatient, wanting to see results quickly. She is not against jhana at all, but she points out that it is crucial to find out that concentration has to be samma sammadhi, not micha-sammaadhi, mixed with lobha, with an idea of self. It may take along time to find this out. She gently leads people to consider for themselves what is the right Path and what the wrong Path. She does so by asking people questions so that they would find out themselves. The Buddha taught us so that we can ourselves develop understanding, not following other people. In order to understand what she explains it is indeed necessary to discuss a great deal about these matters. At first sight one might misunderstand what she emphasizes. I hope you will discuss more with us, so that you may see things in the right perspective, not misjudging Kh Sujin or believing that she has wrong speech. She is extremely careful in checking with the texts and often asks experts in Pali around her about the texts of the Tipitaka and Commentaries. Nina. #75041 From: "sjackson07513" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 3:25 am Subject: Re: Hello and intro sjackson07513 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Stephen, > > Welcome to DSG and thank you for kindly introducing yourself. > > --- stephen jackson wrote: > > After some explorations I have settled down in > > Theravadin Buddhism. I love the Suttas. My own > > practice is anchored in the 4 protective meditations. > > I would be intersted in sharing thoughts on practice > > especially pertinent and fruitful for laypersons. I > > am by profession a Registered Nurse specializing in > > psychiatric care. With metta, Steve > ... > S: Pls do share any of your thoughts and reflections as you suggest. > Either start a new thread anytime or jump into an ongoing one. > > Thx for also mentioning your profession. Where do you live/work? There are > a few of us who have backgrounds in psychiatric/psychological areas, so > share any thoughts relating Theravadin Buddhism to your work too. > > I'll look forward to talking to you later. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== >Good morning, Sarah, and thank you. I live and work in NJ. As far as applying the teachings of the Buddha to my work, I keep it simple. The people we care for are in an acute setting and come in during crisis. Diagnoses vary: schizophrenia, bipolar, suicidal ideation (or post-attempt), subtance abuse withdrawal, and now gero- psychiatric patients. Along with meds and so called therapeutic use of self, group activities including recreation, I try to be specific to the particular patient, esp. during 1:1. Of late I have a renewed appreaciation for the "unit rules" what would be our "precepts." Also, during 1:1 I try in the midst of ongoing assessment to build on strengths. I try also to help patients realize the extent to which they overidentify with particular symptoms or the extent to which they create a Self, esp with unwholesome thoughts or pattenns of thoughts. One recovering drug addict was very into noting the origin of his feelings through the six sense doors. The five aggregates emd up in my notes so to speak and in my exhanges. Delusional patients imrpess upon me the delusion of a permanent self. Nurses say, "That delusion is fixed." The Buddha knew that delusion a long time ago and revealed anatta. Well, most of all I look and listen. It all comes down to "stopping." I look forwatd to posting meditation questions in particular. With metta, Steve #75042 From: "sjackson07513" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 3:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello and intro sjackson07513 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Stephen, > welcome to dsg. Thank you for your interesting intro. > Sharing thoughts on practice: what is your opinion on the practice > the Buddha taught? > Nina. > Op 9-aug-2007, om 4:19 heeft stephen jackson het volgende geschreven: > > > I would be intersted in sharing thoughts on practice > > especially pertinent and fruitful for laypersons. > > > > > Good morning Nina, It's a pleasure to hear from you. I just finished reading your chapter on Samatha in Abhidhamma in Daily Life! Thanks for the help already. To be very specific, I am interested in developing one of the 4 protectives as a base for insight. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I had read in The Buddha's Path of Deliverance that even Buddhanussati could serve as such a base? Could metta? My own experience of course confirms your statement how mindfulness of breathing is a difficult subject... As far as my opinion about the Buddha and his teachings, first I feel a great sense of gratitude for having encountered the Dhamma, esp. in the Suttas. Even suttas such as MN28 have become methods for me at times. In one word my opinion: liberation. Well for now, I send you my metta and gratitude for your own sharing and teaching throughout the years. With metta, Steve #75043 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 3:56 pm Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative kenhowardau Hi James, Thanks for this nicely written post. ------------ <. . .> J: > As far as if K.S. is peddling her householder views against formal meditation through the members of this group, that is very hard to say. Nina represents her as saying one thing; Sarah represents her as saying something else; Ken H. represents her as saying something entirely different from the others. ------------ One thing for sure - without any false modesty - my understanding is that of a beginner. Therefore, in that way, it is not the same as K Sujin's understanding. Nor is it the same as any of her students. All of us who agree with KS's perspective (which, I must stress, is also the perspective of the ancient commentaries, the Abhidhamma and the Pali texts as a whole) have different levels of intellectual understanding. However, I think we all have a grasp of the following basics: There are only dhammas: there is no self: therefore, ultimate reality is very different from conventional reality: and real practice very different from formal practice. Unfortunately, it seems that this grasp of the basics put us at odds with 99.99% of today's Buddhist World. Ken H #75044 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 4:46 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,177 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 177. Herein, firstly as regard the 'formation of merit': the formation of merit comprising the eight volitions of the sense sphere ((1)-(8)) is a condition in two ways, as kamma condition acting from a different time and as decisive-support condition, equally for all the nine kinds of resultant consciousness ((41)-(49)) in rebirth-linking in a happy destiny in the sense-sphere becoming. That formation comprising the five profitable volitions of the fine-material sphere ((9)-(13)) [is a condition] in like manner for the five kinds of rebirth-linking in the fine-material becoming ((57)-(61)). ********************** 177. tattha pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaare taava kaamaavacaraa.t.thacetanaabhedo pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaro avisesena kaamabhave sugatiya.m navanna.m vipaakavi~n~naa.naana.m pa.tisandhiya.m naanakkha.nikakammapaccayena ceva upanissayapaccayena caati dvedhaa paccayo. ruupaavacarapa~ncakusalacetanaabhedo pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaro ruupabhave pa.tisandhiya.m eva pa~ncanna.m. #75045 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 5:20 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,177 nichiconn "The Path of Purity" {p.667} Of these as regards preparations for merit, the preparation for merit classified as the eight volitions of the realm of sense is generally a twofold cause, by way of kamma lasting various moments, and by way of sufficing condition to nine classes of resultant consciousness at rebirth in a world of sense. And the preparation for merit classified as the five moral volitions of the world of form is a twofold cause of five classes of consciousness at rebirth in the world of form. #75046 From: "sjackson07513" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 7:22 pm Subject: Samayutta Nikayas/Abhidhamma?Khun Sujin/Nina VanGorkom sjackson07513 May I say to all that I feel quite happty even at the end of a somewhat tough shift as a nurse on a psychiatric unit. And I have to be there tomorrow at 6 am! Please help my understanding of the type of vipassana Khun Sujin teaches, which it seems, I am so inclined. Fairly early on aside from the 4 protective meditations, after establishing a certain calm I felt inclined to directly look at impermanence. Later as I studied more Dhamma esp. the Samayutta Nikayas I felt very inclined to apply Satipatthana very directly in my daily life. I came to see the Satipatthana Sutta in a subtlely paradoxical way in that the way out of suffering was somehow life itself, that what was contained in the 4 Foundations was life now looked at! I especially feel inclined even now to the practice of the six sense bases in the Samayutta and I am picking up some Abhidhamma along the way. This notion of not identifying "practice" with "sitting" makes semse to me since the three other postures seems always included... in many places in the Pali canon. Well, any time anyone want to jump in... I especially relate to the starting refernce point/purpose...anatta... With metta, Steve #75047 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 7:43 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,177 indriyabala Hi Larry, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII > > 177. Herein, firstly as regard the 'formation of merit': the formation of merit comprising the eight volitions of the sense sphere ((1)-(8)) is a condition in two ways, as kamma condition acting from a different time and as decisive-support condition, equally for all the nine kinds of resultant consciousness ((41)-(49)) in rebirth- linking in a happy destiny in the sense-sphere becoming. That formation comprising the five profitable volitions of the fine- material sphere ((9)-(13)) [is a condition] in like manner for the five kinds of rebirth-linking in the fine-material becoming ((57)- (61)). > ********************** T: It is hard for me to clearly understand what the above paragraph means. Thus I am interested in your kind explanation with a few real- world examples -- and all that in plain English, please. Thanks. Tep === #75048 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 9:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hi Sarah (& Mike), - I am now replying to your message #75006. > T: Thank you for the Pali terms which help my recallection. Does the > naama-ruupa paricchedcheda-~naa.na correspond to the right 'dassana' > of the cula-sotapanna? ... S: (Without checking), I'm pretty sure it's the second stage above, that of paccaya-pariggaha-~naana (knowledge of conditioned dhammas) which corresponds with the cula-sotapanna's wisdom. It's interesting that at this stage, the defilements have been attenuated to the degree that there will be no more woeful rebirths. I think it indicates the power of wisdom, the clear understanding of conditioned dhammas, of anatta, to affect the development of morality and calm to such a degree. T: It sounds convincing enough. .... > T: I agree that wise attention about the FNTs involves conditioned > dhammas. And I believe that in most people such wise attention must > be supported by practice of the magga factors. ... S: What do you mean here by 'in most people.....practice of the magga factors'? T: It means there are exceptions -- but they are possibly not the majority of Buddhist practitioners. Of course, this is my opinion that is based on personal experiences. .... S: Thoughts and good listening (with yoniso-manasikara) is pariyatti. It can never in itself be the Noble 8fold path or lead to the penetration of the 4NT. However, the pariyatti is essential for the development of practice (patipatti), leading to pativedha (direct knowledge of these). How do you understand 'practice' in your statement and question above? T: IMO practicing the NEP is defined through the right effort to develop right view and four other magga factors, i.e. right resolve (sankappa) through right livelihood, according to MN 117. For example, "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort." Further, the development and culmination of kusala dhammas (that have arisen) is the fourth aspect of right effort [see SN 45.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta, DN 22, etc.]. .... S: Btw, in Mike's string of posts that missed the list, there was a one-liner addressed to you to just say how glad he was to read your posts here again. T: Thank you, Mike. I am also very glad to see your posts again. Tep === #75049 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,177 lbidd2 Hi Tep, Nina will explain all in a couple of days. It has to do with how "formations" is a condition for "consciousness" in dependent arising. Beginning with "formations of merit", i.e., wholesome volitional consciousness which is 1. accompanied by joy, prompted, with knowledge, 2. accompanied by joy, unprompted, with knowledge, 3. accompanied by joy, prompted, without knowledge, 4 accompanied by joy, unprompted, without knowledge, 5. accompanied by equanimity, prompted, with knowledge, 6. accompanied by equanimity, unprompted, with knowledge, 7. accompanied by equanimity, prompted without knowledge, 8. accompanied by equanimity, unprompted, without knowledge, these 8 consciousnesses condition 9 kinds of rebirth-linking consciousness by way of kamma condition and decisive support condition. Also, 5 kinds of jhana volitional consciousness condition 5 kinds of resultant rebirth-linking consciousness. In the dependent arising formula "formations" is kamma and "consciousness" is kamma result. Larry #75050 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 9:37 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nichiconn kenH: If someone wants to believe in a soul that lives happily ever after they should turn to a religion that teaches that. Why would anyone want to pervert the beautiful, unique, Dhamma into just another eternity belief? cp: bravo! and quoting out of context: Path of Purification VI, 91: <... they take it as agreeable, desirable, permanent, [196] pleasant, self, because they are wrapped in the murk of ignorance and dyed with affection and greed for self...> peace. #75051 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 10:04 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) jonoabb Hi Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott and Swee Boon, ... > Scott, did you really fell into a pool or was this figurative? Clue: Grk mytholog. character (9 letters beg. 'N') ;-)) Jon #75052 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 10:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: ... > > True enough! However, in the case of the NEP, the factors *are* the > > path. In other words, the 8 factors are both requisite and > > sufficient. > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not individually. The aggregate of all the factors is sufficient, but > no proper subset is. > ------------------------------------------- Do you have any specific examples from the suttas of subsets of the NEP factors in mind? In terms of the moment of path consciousness (magga citta), I would say there are no such subsets. That is to say, all path factors (with the possible exception of one) arise together at path moment. As far as I know, there is no sutta that talks about subsets of the factors of the NEP (unless you want to count the groupings mentioned in MN 117), or of the development of individual factors of the NEP. > > Here you are referring I think to the series of conditioning factors > > mentioned in various suttas (i.e., other than the NEP). In this > > context, "concentration" need not necessarily mean "samatha/jhana" > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Right concentration is jhana. > ------------------------------------------- Right Concentration *as a factor of the NEP* is jhana of one level or another. However, I think you'll find that the suttas that deal with concentration as one of a series of factors each conditioning the next are not referring to *Right Concentration as a factor of the NEP*. > > Yes, but in the list that includes both concentration and > > investigation of dhammas, is it said that "concentration" means > > "samatha/jhana" (and if it is, is the passage describing the special > > case of attainment of enlightenment with jhana as basis)? > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Right concentration is defined to be the jhanas. > ------------------------------------------ The only concentration that is defined in the suttas to be the jhanas is Right Concentration as a factor of the NEP. > > Context is all-important. We cannot simply 'transport' the text from > > the NEP factors and apply it to references to concentration elsewhere. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > We do not see this the same way.We are talking a different "language" > here, Jon. Yes, we do differ on the interpretation of the factors of the NEP. However, that aside, there is clearly a distinction made in the suttas between: (a) Right Concentration as a factor of the NEP, and (b) concentration as one of several factors each conditioning the next, leading to enlightenment. It is the former that is equated with the jhanas, not the latter (speaking generally). > As far as I'm concerned, the path factors are traits that are > cultivated, and not aspects of path consciousness. For me, the path consists of > cultivating the 8 path factors over a long period of time. > ------------------------------------------- It is based on your interpretation of the path factors as 'traits that are separately cultivated' that you equate the second kind of concentration (at (b) above) with the first (at (a) above). Then, by transposing the description from the first kind of concentration, you conclude that the second kind of concentration also means the jhanas. However, neither the suttas themselves nor the commentaries support such an approach, to my knowledge. Will respond to the rest of your post (on samatha as taught by the Buddha) separately. Jon #75053 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 10:16 pm Subject: Samatha as taught by the Buddha jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - ... > > Are the "jhanas taught by the Buddha" something you deduce from these > > 2 suttas, or are they something described in the texts such that a > > person would be able to understand from that how the actual > > development of samatha leading to one kind of jhana differs from the > > development of samatha leading to the other? > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I think these suttas are clear, most especially the Anupada Sutta as > regards available namas. > -------------------------------------------- So the idea of "jhanas taught by the Buddha" is something you deduce from the "available namas" mentioned in the 2 suttas and especially the Anupada Sutta. It would be surprising I think if there was nothing more specific than this in the whole of the Tipitaka. > > If you contemplate "Buddha's jhana" (as distinct from the jhana of > > his predecessors) then there must also be "Buddha's samatha". > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't know what you are talking about, Jon. Calm is calm. Yes, but jhana is the outcome of the development of samatha, to its highest degree. If the jhanas taught by the Buddha are different from those taught by his predecessors (for convenience, "ordinary jhanas"), then the development of samatha leading to them must also be different. How else could there be a difference between the two? To put my question another way, how does a person developing samatha know whether the resulting jhana will be the jhanas taught by the Buddha or ordinary jhanas? > But the jhanas of the Buddha do not seem to me to be bereft of > contact, feeling, perception, volition, decision, and attention. The Anupada Sutta > says that these are all present in every jhana except the eighth (and ninth). > -------------------------------------------- So is it your understanding that the ordinary jhanas are bereft of the mental factors of passa, vedana, sanna, cetana, manasikara? To my understanding, these are all universal cetasikas, i.e., present in every citta. > > I would consider the Satipatthana Sutta to be one of the best sources > > of "right practice". What does it tell us about "the Buddha's jhana"? > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The Satipatthana focusses on investigation of dhammas. Not every sutta > deals with everything. But in view of the assurance of enlightenment given at the end, the Satipatthana Sutta surely covers everything that is requisite. Or do you see it differently? > Is not right concentration part of right practice, Jon. > -------------------------------------------------- We are now talking about whether there is such a thing as the jhanas taught by the Buddha that are different from ordinary jhanas. I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of this comment to that issue. Jon #75054 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Aug 9, 2007 10:17 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > kenH: If someone wants to believe in a soul that lives happily ever after they should turn to a religion that teaches that. Why would anyone want to pervert the beautiful, unique, Dhamma into just another eternity belief? > > cp: bravo! and quoting out of context: Path of Purification VI, 91: <... they take it as agreeable, desirable, permanent, [196] pleasant, self, because they are wrapped in the murk of ignorance and dyed with affection and greed for self...> > peace. Thanks, Connie, and bravo to you too! I was worried when I sent that post that it might be a bit OTT. It was my birthday, and I had a nasty flu virus, and maybe (just maybe) was feeling sorry for myself and taking it out on Tep. (Heaven forbid such akusala!) But no, Sarah had given me some very useful advice twelve months earlier when I had a similar virus. Where was the so-called self that had been coughing and spluttering all week? Nowhere! So how could I feel sorry for myself when the present moment was so completely new? Who's to feel sorry for? Actually, Sarah put it much more diplomatically, but that was the message I got. So you see, I couldn't have been feeling grumpy and sorry for myself! I wouldn't make the same mistake twice would I? :-) Ken H #75055 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thank you, once again sarahprocter... Hi Connie (& Andrew), --- L G SAGE wrote: > > It's a nice long section. A footnote says no characteristic mark is > > given for yoniso manasikaara in "the long list of the distinguishing > > charateristics of ethical qualities given by Buddhaghosa in the > > Sumangala". > ... > S: Because it's what Andrew refers to as a 'composite term' perhaps? > ... > c: Do you mean where 74968 reads "Do the inherent characterisitics > include the hetu, the relational aspects, the anusayas etc. ... S: No, I was referring to earlier discussions in which certain Pali terms refer to a combination of dhammas. Yoniso manasikara, as discussed before, refers to all the cittas in a kusala mind-door process, not just to the universal manasikara. The 'ethical qualities' above, presumably refers to sobhana cetasikas. As for Andrew's qu, I forget the context, but we can't say that the anusayas, for example, are aspects of the characteristics of visible object or lobha, say. Take this further if you like and add your own comments..... .... >In asking > this, I recognise that, as soon as you start weaving this web, it is > very easy to come to a conclusion that "I am the sum of all this > fluctuating process" i.e. atta view via the back door." ?? ... S: I'm pretty lost in this web you've been weaving, but for sure, atta view is always ready to make an appearance through any door it can find... Metta, Sarah ========== #75056 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:22 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nilovg Dear Jon, I am puzzled. Nina. Op 10-aug-2007, om 7:04 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Scott, did you really fell into a pool or was this figurative? > > Clue: Grk mytholog. character (9 letters beg. 'N') ;-)) #75057 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Tep), --- upasaka@... wrote: > > S: This is why bhavana (mental development/practice) refers to the > > development of panna and associated dhammas, not a person doing > anything. > > > > Do we all agree on this as well? > > > ========================= > ;-) I agree with what I said. LOL! > I ALSO agree with what you said, Sarah, so long as people (not > you, > and not me) don't take the true literal-level statement "There is no > person > doing anything" and understand it to be a true conventional statement, > because as > a conventional statement it is false. .... S: I don't know, Howard. I think everyone's already an expert at knowing what are true conventional statements.....not sure we need to explain this! As infants, we soon learn that 'Howard is doing this....Sarah is doing that....' .... ><....> >I believe that part of the problem that > people > have with the not-self teaching stems from conflating paramattha sacca > with > samutti sacca. ... S: I'm not sure. I think the problem is the deep-rooted ignorance about paramattha sacca. As more understanding of paramattha sacca grows, there is less and less confusion or conflating of these different 'truths'. You mentioned the care that needs to be taken, but as I see it, ignorance and wrong view are what take us off-track, not a lack of clarity in explanations. In any case, thanks for your helpful comments. Metta, Sarah >BTW, I of *course* realize that you DO know what you are > talking > about. I'm not writing this for your benefit, but for general > consideration. <...> #75058 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Scott, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: <...> > Concerning concentration focus on an object, I understand that there > are 55 kinds of concentration as expounded in the Patisambhidamagga. > For example, void-, signless-, and desireless-concentration. > [Treatise I, Chapter III : Concentration. Page 49] Perhaps, the > signless concentration has no object. Don't you think so? ... S: I think the object is nibbana, the animitta (signless) dhamma. ***** Scott, hope you're having/had good camping. Mike also sent you a message which didn't make it to the list, so I'll add it on here as well before I forget (feel free to put it in its proper thread): Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:26:58 -0700 Hi Scott, >Scott: This is quite clear, clarifying elegantly the lack of necessity for attempting to perform a 'walking meditation' since ordinary, everyday walking is exactly the same and clear comprehension is not subject to being forced to arise.< Agreed--clear, elegant and generally excellent, thanks--though it seems to me that clear comprehension could be said to be 'forced to arise' when the conditions for its arising are present--just no 'forcer' and of course only moment (kha.na) by moment. mike ******** Metta, Sarah ========= #75059 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello and intro nilovg Dear Stephen, thanks for your kind post. Op 9-aug-2007, om 12:39 heeft sjackson07513 het volgende geschreven: > To be very specific, I am interested in developing one of the 4 > protectives as a base for insight. Any suggestions would be > appreciated. I had read in The Buddha's Path of Deliverance that > even Buddhanussati could serve as such a base? Could metta? My own > experience of course confirms your statement how mindfulness of > breathing is a difficult subject... ---------- N: I understand that the 4 protectives are the brahmaviharas? I think it is the opposite: by the development of insight the four brahmaviharas become more fulfilled. I go into this more in my other post to you. Also as to Buddhanussati, one's confidence and gratitude grows as one has more understanding of satipatthana, his teaching par excellence. The truth he taught can be proved and at each moment of consideration of realities there can be Buddhanussati. --------- > > S: As far as my opinion about the Buddha and his teachings, first I > feel > a great sense of gratitude for having encountered the Dhamma, esp. in > the Suttas. Even suttas such as MN28 have become methods for me at > times. In one word my opinion: liberation. -------- N: This is an important sutta, the Elephant's Foootprint, so helpful for daily life. If others abuse you, you know that what is heard is only sound. We can cut out the stories about persons and situations, and this leads to liberation from wrong view. When there is no aversion about other people's behaviour, there is more room for metta. Nina. #75060 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thank you for the answers. > > > 1.the answer lies in the following paccavekkha.na (reviewing) > > cittas in the next process (vithi) of cittas which 'review' the > > magga and phala cittas which have just occurred. > > > > 2. After each process of cittas, there are always bhavanga > > (life-continuum) cittas. Now, between each sense-door and mind-door > > or each mind-door and next mind-door process, there are bhavanga > > cittas. > > > > 3. As I said, it is the paccavekkha.na cittas which do it. They do > > it by way of 'na'vatabba'. This means that the characteristic of > > those dhammas is clearly understood as 'present' objects, even > > though they have in fact fallen away. > > Are these cittas a special class of cittas by themselves? .... S: The paccavekkhana cittas are sobhana cittas with panna that only arise in specific contexts - here after the lokuttara cittas have fallen away. It is the 16th vipassana nana. (Magga nana being the 14th and phala nana being the 15th). Also, paccavekkhana cittas after jhana cittas have fallen away. The panna accompanying these know precisely the jhana factors involved, the object and so on. So there can never be any doubt about whether nibbana or jhana has been realised. (Of course, the panna is of a different nature in the reviewing of lokuttara cittas and nibbana and the reviewing of jhana cittas). ... > > This is also how mental states, cittas and rupas in the mind-door > > process are known as 'present objects', even though they too have > > fallen away. > > I wonder if recollection of past lives involves the same mechanism as > 'na'vatabba'. What does that Pali word mean anyway? .... S: It means literally 'not-so classifiable'. I like your line of enquiry - I think it's helpful. Yes, I think the direct recollection of past lives (as in the case of the Buddha and great disciples, whereby any dhamma could be known that was attended to), it is exactly the same kind of mechanism/principle. The following is something I wrote on this topic before (more in U.P. under 'navattabba'): S: "For example, questions raised about whether it is the reality of nibbana experienced by reviewing consciousness cittas following magga and phala cittas, how defilements eradicated could be reviewed, paramattha dhammas known by the Buddha from the past or in other beings etc can all be clarified in a similar way. The characteristics of the paramattha dhammas are known precisely, but by way of na-vatabba objects. To take this even further, the long-standing questions about how sense door objects or just fallen away namas can be known through the mind-door can also be answered in this way if we are precise. The characteristics are directly experienced, but in fact it is by way of being unclassifiable objects as past dhammas have gone. Conversely the nimitta or concepts experienced by jhana cittas are concepts experienced by way of unclassifiable objects, similarly representing concepts of other objects. In fact all concepts can be classified in this way. So we have both paramattha dhammas and concepts classified by way of unclassifiable objects;-)." **** S: Hope this helps. Good to see your keen interest in these deep aspects of Abhidhamma, Swee Boon. Metta, Sarah ======= #75061 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samayutta Nikayas/Abhidhamma?Khun Sujin/Nina VanGorkom nilovg Dear Steve, Op 10-aug-2007, om 4:22 heeft sjackson07513 het volgende geschreven: > Later as I studied > more Dhamma esp. the Samayutta Nikayas I felt very inclined to apply > Satipatthana very directly in my daily life. I came to see the > Satipatthana Sutta in a subtlely paradoxical way in that the way out > of suffering was somehow life itself, that what was contained in the > 4 Foundations was life now looked at! I especially feel inclined > even now to the practice of the six sense bases in the Samayutta and > I am picking up some Abhidhamma along the way. This notion of not > identifying "practice" with "sitting" makes semse to me since the > three other postures seems always included... in many places in the > Pali canon. --------- N: As you study the Kindred Sayings IV, you will see that what we take for the world or our life are the objects as they appear one at a time through the six doors. See for example §82, 84, 85. You can prove to yourself that when visible object appears none of the other objects appear at the same time. Actually, our life is only the experience of one object through one doorway at a time. When hardness appears through the bodysense, there is no thought of posture. We can think of the whole body that is sitting and it is because of remembrance, sa~n~na, that we perceive a posture of the body. We cling to an idea of my body that takes a specific posture but in the ultimate sense there is no body, no posture. This understanding can be gradually developed. We should understand the difference between concepts and ultimate realities. Someone asked how one can have metta when there is no person in the ultimate sense. Kh Sujin asked: who had the greatest metta? It was the Buddha. When there is right understanding of anatta one does not take metta for self, metta becomes purer. One is not misled by stories about other people who say or do this or that and behave in a disagreeable way. The satipatthanasutta teaches us about daily life. At first sight it seems that it deals with conventional notions, but these are ways of bringing us back to the reality appearing at the present moment so that is can be seen as it is: as anatta. That is the goal of this sutta and all other suttas. ---------- S: Please help my understanding of the type of vipassana Khun Sujin teaches, which it seems, I am so inclined. ------------ Kh. Sujin does not teach differently from the Tipitaka, and it is not her personal teaching. Nina. #75062 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to E-card from Bangkok 3 (1) - Vipallaasas sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- m_nease wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for this--I have no doubt at all of the importance of the > vipallaasas. In fact I think they're often underestimated, especially > sa~n~na vipallaasa, in 'favor' of e.g. micchaadi.t.thi. I was only > surprised to read that they arise with ALL akusala cittas. This makes > them even more important than I had thought. > > Thanks again for all the good citations. ... S: Yes, sa~n~naa vipallaasa is interesting. Sometimes we read examples of what we know conventionally as wrong memory. For example, we often mistake divers for dolphins here. Yes, this is sa~n~naa vipallaasa, but so is when we note the dolphins as dolphins too! Whenever, the citta isn't dana, sila or bhavana, there's sa~n~naa vipallaasa involved. Perversions all the time! Would you like to say any more on your comment about 'even more important'? I'd be glad to hear your reflections. Metta, Sarah p.s You'd appreciate all the bird-life here on Sydney beaches - herons, shags, colourful parrots, kukkaburrahs....lots I don't know...So many opportunities of sa~n~naa vipallaasa in a day! ============= #75063 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Howard & all), Thx for highlighting some of your comments in the thread with Ken H and being willing to discuss these points further: --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: (#74911) At the paramattha-dhamma level there are only cittas, > cetasikas, ruupa and nibbana. These dhammas are all anatta, but it is > a different matter to say too strongly that "anatta means no one > practises". Why? Because if there is no 'patipatti', or there is > no 'patipada', then there will not be eradication of dukkkha through > the cessation of kamma. .... S: Why does saying strongly "anatta means no one practises" imply "there is no 'patipatti', or there is no 'patipada'"? .... >Both Kamma and Dukkha were defined by the > Great Sage with beings in mind. .... S: So why do we read about anatta at all or about 'suffering, but no sufferer' etc? Why is kamma said to refer to cetana, a mental state, and vipaka to more cittas and mental states? I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but I don't follow your logic here, Tep. ... > > T: (#74921) We should not be confused by these two different > perspectives, because they are both correct: the paramattha-dhamma > view and the conventional view that are co-existing. In the world of > paramattha principles there are only the four realities, while beings > live and die in their worlds of beings (as defined in the sutta that > I quoted earlier). ... S: This is correct sammuti sacca or vohara sacca as long as we know that we are only using the terms like the Buddha conventionally and for convenience, like the chariot. We say "I see, I hear", but really there is no "I" to do anything, surely? ... >The no self/not self principle is easily > understood in the world of atoms where there are no humans, animals, > or things. Yet, in every human, animal, and non-living thing there > are atoms and empty spaces! .... S: I think that even when scientists talk about atoms, they are not any closer to understanding anatta. It's not scientific theory, as you'll agree, but the ultimate truth about all dhammas, to be directly experienced in 'practice', 'patipatti'. ... > ......... > T: My answer to your question[Sarah: "This is why bhavana (mental > development/practice) refers to the development of panna and > associated dhammas, not a person doing anything. Do we all agree on > this as well?"],therefore, is: it depends on your perspective -- the > real-world perspective, or the paramattha-dhamma perspective. In the > real world there are both persons doing mental practice and the > development of panna and associated dhammas. When the Paramattha- > dhamma perspective is used, there is no person doing anything. .... S: Can we say that whatever language or perspective we are using, in truth there are no persons doing anything and that bhavana is never performed by a person? ..... > The following sutta is a good example that supports my real-world > perspective view. > > [MN 61] Therefore, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify > my bodily acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal > acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental acts > through repeated reflection.' Thus you should train yourself. > > T: MN 61 shows that there was a person (named Rahula) who followed > the Buddha's advice about the development of three right conducts. > Later after more listening and more practices, he became an arahant. > Did ultimate realities, or Rahula, become arahant? ... S: Thx for your good question. The magga citta (of the arahant) which eradicated all defilements was an impermanent lokuttara citta accompanied by the various path factors beginning with the highest degree of right understanding (samma ditthi). Referring to such states as Rahula or the arahant is for conventional convenience only. In your view, Tep, what dhammas does Rahula consist of? If we had met Rahula, what dhammas would have been experienced? I know this is a sensitive topic which touches on aspects of practice and core understanding and I know you're discussing related aspects with others as well. I think it's a useful one too,so hope you don't mind these further comments. I'll look forward to hearing anyone else's views too. Metta, Sarah =========== #75064 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello and intro sarahprocter... Hi Steve, Thanks for all your good reflections which I can relate to, having worked in psychiatric centres in London a long time ago. --- sjackson07513 wrote: <...> > Also, during 1:1 I try in the midst of ongoing assessment to build on > strengths. I try also to help patients realize the extent to which > they overidentify with particular symptoms or the extent to which > they create a Self, esp with unwholesome thoughts or pattenns of > thoughts. ... S: Yes, we all do this in different ways, all 'mad' according to the texts, unless the bondage of wrong view has been removed at the stage of sotapanna. It can become a real obsession, of course. MN18, The Honeyball Sutta, puts it well: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel405.html "Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition there is feeling. What one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mental proliferation beset a person with respect to past, future, and present forms cognizable through the eye." ... >One recovering drug addict was very into noting the origin > of his feelings through the six sense doors. The five aggregates emd > up in my notes so to speak and in my exhanges. Delusional patients > imrpess upon me the delusion of a permanent self. Nurses say, "That > delusion is fixed." The Buddha knew that delusion a long time ago > and revealed anatta. Well, most of all I look and listen. It all > comes down to "stopping." I look forwatd to posting meditation > questions in particular. .... S: Yes, delusion and wrong view are the real impediments to the development of satipatthana. It's a challenge to give some guidence about the Dhamma in a language that can be understood. What do you mean by "stopping" here? I'll look forward to reading your questions (and brace yourself for a wide selection of answers:-)). Thanks again for joining us, Steve. I like the way you consider the development of understanding in relation to your day-to-day life and the fact that you enjoy your work. I'm sure your presence is greatly appreciated. Understanding more about the present moment helps us see that anytime, any place is the opportunity for satipatthana to develop. I know Scott will also be delighted to 'meet' you when he returns from camp. Metta, Sarah ======= #75065 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:19 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) jonoabb Hi Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Jon, > I am puzzled. > Nina. Sorry to have been so cryptic. Scott's account of seeing his reflection in the pool reminded me of the story of Narcissus, and I thought he was alluding to that. It's the kind of thing one is likely to come across in crossword puzzles, hence the format of my post ;-)) Jon > Op 10-aug-2007, om 7:04 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > > > Scott, did you really fell into a pool or was this figurative? > > > > Clue: Grk mytholog. character (9 letters beg. 'N') ;-)) #75066 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:32 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > To answer your question another way, there is nothing about the > > attainment of jhana per se that predisposes a person towards > > enlightenment. Enlightenment is the outcome of highly developed > > insight, and insight can only be developed (a) during a Buddha's > > dispensation, and (b) by one who has a correct understanding of the > > teachings on insight. Jhana + wrong view = no enlightenment! > > I think FULL Enlightenment is the outcome of highly developed insight > as well as highly developed calm. > > This is evident in the Kimsuka Sutta: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.204.than.html Thanks for the sutta refernce. I think you are referring in particlur to the simile of the royal frontier fortress at the end of the sutta, and the mention there of the pair of swift messengers representing samatha and vipassana. I do not find this simile an easy one to understand, even with the detailed explanation of who or what represents who or what. Perhaps you could say a few words about it. Thanks. I notice there are four pairs of messengers in all. Would they represent the 4 stages of enlightenment, do you think? Jon #75067 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:47 am Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative jonoabb Hi Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Howard W, Nina, Scott D, Mike N, Robert K, Christine F > > How are you? > > I come to have reservations about this group (dhammastudygroup) > being a genuine proper Theravada group because I came to notice some > wrong speeches (as reported by Ken H) of K Sujin who has been > portrayed to be someone who is against formal practice of samatha > and vipassanaa. A true follower of Theravada would never do such a > thing. As she is merely a lay householder, she is not a siilavanta > (a Buddhist nun) and cannot represent proper Theravada teachings. As > reported by her students or sympathisers, she seems to have been > generalizing her lay narrow householder views, and peddling them > through these people. I don't want to make an issue of this, but would simply urge you not to jump to conclusions without checking to clarify (and verify) anything you might have heard. If you find anything has been said or written that you consider to be contrary to the Tipitaka and the ancient commentaries, you are most welcome to mention it here so that it can be discussed and considered against the texts. > I have been watching you, Howard, trying your best to speak on > behalf of formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa (Sama.na Dhamma > in commentary parlance) even though you are a householder yourself. I'm not familiar with the commentary term 'Sama.na Dhamma', and would be grateful for a reference to it. Jon #75068 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Howard (& Jon), > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he > lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives > contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. > > He lives contemplating origination-things in the body, or he lives > contemplating dissolution-things in the body, or he lives > contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things in the body. > > Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body > exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, > and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As I read your post, a certain thought came to me. I think the 3 > paragraphs above relates to 3 of the 7 factors of enlightenment. > > In the first paragraph, the Buddha exhorts us to develop the > enlightenment factor of mindfulness. > > In the second paragraph, the Buddha exhorts us to develop the > enlightenment factor of investigation. > > In the third paragraph, the Buddha exhorts us to develop the > enlightenment factor of equanimity. An interesting observation. As someone who likes to get the commentary perspective on the suttas, I have checked Soma Thera's translation for the commentary to this passage (which is from the section on anapanasati in the Satipatthana Sutta). There is not mention there of the enlightenment factors. The enlightenment factors are however mentioned in the section dealing with the Contemplation of Mental Objhects. The 4th item under this section (after the 5 hindrances, the 5 aggregates of clinging and the 12 sense-bases) is the enlightenment factors. Jon #75069 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/10/07 1:14:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ... > >>True enough! However, in the case of the NEP, the factors *are* > the > >>path. In other words, the 8 factors are both requisite and > >>sufficient. > > > >------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Not individually. The aggregate of all the factors is > sufficient, but > >no proper subset is. > >------------------------------------------- > > Do you have any specific examples from the suttas of subsets of the > NEP factors in mind? -------------------------------------- Howard: No. My understanding from the suttas is that none of the 8 is expendable. -------------------------------------- > > In terms of the moment of path consciousness (magga citta), I would > say there are no such subsets. That is to say, all path factors > (with the possible exception of one) arise together at path moment. --------------------------------------- Howard: I already pointedout to you that we do not see the path factorsin the same way. BTW, which one do you exclude? Right livelihood? What about right speech? Not much speaking going on a a moment of path consciousness. The definition of right speech is "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech." Not much idle chatter at the time of path consciousness, hmmm? How about right action? It's definition is "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity. This is called right action." Again, at a moment of path consciousness, one certainly has no need to abstain from killing, stealing, and engaging is sexual misbehavior! Well, I could go on, but perhaps you take my point. I don't see the factors ofthe noble eightfold path at all as you do. I alsoexpect that neither of us is about to be persuaded to the contrary. -------------------------------------------- > > As far as I know, there is no sutta that talks about subsets of the > factors of the NEP (unless you want to count the groupings mentioned > in MN 117), or of the development of individual factors of the NEP. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: There doesn't need to be. Don't the suttas make it clear that no factors are dispensable? That's all I'm saying. If all 8 are needed, nothing less will do - that's straightforward tautology. (Or are you claiming that not all 8 are essential?) --------------------------------------------- > > >>Here you are referring I think to the series of conditioning > factors > >>mentioned in various suttas (i.e., other than the NEP). In this > >>context, "concentration" need not necessarily mean "samatha/jhana" > > > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Right concentration is jhana. > >------------------------------------------- > > Right Concentration *as a factor of the NEP* is jhana of one level or > another. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I am unaware of such a distinction in the suttas. There is but one NEP taught in the suttas that I am aware of. ----------------------------------------------- > > However, I think you'll find that the suttas that deal with > concentration as one of a series of factors each conditioning the > next are not referring to *Right Concentration as a factor of the > NEP*. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: As I said, I'm aware of only one sense in the suttas. Also, I haven't gotten the impression at all that the path factors are said to develop sequentially. In fact, 1and 2 most prominently appear later in development, being quite weak at first. ------------------------------------------------- > > >>Yes, but in the list that includes both concentration and > >>investigation of dhammas, is it said that "concentration" means > >>"samatha/jhana" (and if it is, is the passage describing the > special > >>case of attainment of enlightenment with jhana as basis)? > > > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Right concentration is defined to be the jhanas. > >------------------------------------------ > > The only concentration that is defined in the suttas to be the jhanas > is Right Concentration as a factor of the NEP. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, indeed. And we do not at all view the NEP the same way. ------------------------------------------------------ > > >>Context is all-important. We cannot simply 'transport' the text > from > >>the NEP factors and apply it to references to concentration > elsewhere. > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > We do not see this the same way.We are talking a different > "language" > >here, Jon. > > Yes, we do differ on the interpretation of the factors of the NEP. > > However, that aside, there is clearly a distinction made in the > suttas between: > (a) Right Concentration as a factor of the NEP, and > (b) concentration as one of several factors each conditioning the > next, leading to enlightenment. -------------------------------------- Howard: Not in my understanding. -------------------------------------- > > It is the former that is equated with the jhanas, not the latter > (speaking generally). > > >As far as I'm concerned, the path factors are traits that are > >cultivated, and not aspects of path consciousness. For me, the path > consists of > >cultivating the 8 path factors over a long period of time. > >------------------------------------------- > > It is based on your interpretation of the path factors as 'traits > that are separately cultivated' that you equate the second kind of > concentration (at (b) above) with the first (at (a) above). > > Then, by transposing the description from the first kind of > concentration, you conclude that the second kind of concentration > also means the jhanas. > > However, neither the suttas themselves nor the commentaries support > such an approach, to my knowledge. -------------------------------------- Howard: I think you superimpose ideas from the commentaries and Abhidhamma to the suttas. In the suttas, NEP consists of traits cultivated over a period of time, not unlike the perfections. ---------------------------------------- > > Will respond to the rest of your post (on samatha as taught by the > > Buddha) separately. > > Jon > ======================== With metta, Howard #75070 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Synopsis of MN 39 nilovg Hi Howard, Op 9-aug-2007, om 18:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > And yes, one needs to be aware of one's > inclination to react with anger. I am very much aware of that in > myself. The awareness > is a beginning. Guarding the mind-door to see the inclination about to > express itself "in the moment" and let it go without reaction is > the necessary > continuation. Also needed as background support is ongoing > cultivation not only of > mindfulness and insight but also of calm. ------- N: As I see it, understanding. But calm arises anyway with each kusala, and thus also with understanding. There are many degrees of hiri and ottappa and these grow when pa~n~naa grows. It is already a beginning to see with understanding of the level of pariyatti akusala as akusala. When aversion inspires one's writing, kusala citta with hiri and ottappa can make the hand move so that the delete key is pressed and one begins anew. This happened to me the other day, guess when :-)) I learnt that it is essential to be aware and understand anger as nama, kusala as nama, otherwise it is all the time my anger, my kusala. I said: I learnt that... because this is most difficult for me. Nina. #75071 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha as taught by the Buddha upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/10/07 1:17:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Jon - > ... > >>Are the "jhanas taught by the Buddha" something you deduce from > these > >>2 suttas, or are they something described in the texts such that > a > >>person would be able to understand from that how the actual > >>development of samatha leading to one kind of jhana differs from > the > >>development of samatha leading to the other? > > > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > I think these suttas are clear, most especially the Anupada > Sutta as > >regards available namas. > >-------------------------------------------- > > So the idea of "jhanas taught by the Buddha" is something you deduce > from the "available namas" mentioned in the 2 suttas and especially > the Anupada Sutta. > > It would be surprising I think if there was nothing more specific > than this in the whole of the Tipitaka. > > >>If you contemplate "Buddha's jhana" (as distinct from the jhana > of > >>his predecessors) then there must also be "Buddha's samatha". > > > >--------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't know what you are talking about, Jon. Calm is calm. > > Yes, but jhana is the outcome of the development of samatha, to its > highest degree. > > If the jhanas taught by the Buddha are different from those taught by > his predecessors (for convenience, "ordinary jhanas"), then the > development of samatha leading to them must also be different. How > else could there be a difference between the two? > > To put my question another way, how does a person developing samatha > know whether the resulting jhana will be the jhanas taught by the > Buddha or ordinary jhanas? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Plant grass seed, get grass. The way of assuring oneself is by following the Buddha's practice teachings, not another's. ------------------------------------------- > > > But the jhanas of the Buddha do not seem to me to be bereft > of > >contact, feeling, perception, volition, decision, and attention. > The Anupada Sutta > >says that these are all present in every jhana except the eighth > (and ninth). > >-------------------------------------------- > > So is it your understanding that the ordinary jhanas are bereft of > the mental factors of passa, vedana, sanna, cetana, manasikara? To > my understanding, these are all universal cetasikas, i.e., present in > every citta. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: The ordinary absorptive jhanas are trances without possibility of directing attention and otherwise exercising will. ------------------------------------------------- > > >>I would consider the Satipatthana Sutta to be one of the best > sources > >>of "right practice". What does it tell us about "the Buddha's > jhana"? > > > >------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > The Satipatthana focusses on investigation of dhammas. Not > every sutta > >deals with everything. > > But in view of the assurance of enlightenment given at the end, the > Satipatthana Sutta surely covers everything that is requisite. Or do > you see it differently? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, jhana arises with it as well, but that is not emphasized in the sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > >Is not right concentration part of right practice, Jon. > >-------------------------------------------------- > > We are now talking about whether there is such a thing as the jhanas > taught by the Buddha that are different from ordinary jhanas. I'm > afraid I don't see the relevance of this comment to that issue. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm afraid we are going around in circles. Your perspective is based on the Khun Sujin analysis, whereas mine is based on my understanding of what I read in the suttas, and we are very far apart. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Jon > ======================== With metta, Howard #75072 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/10/07 3:25:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard (& Tep), > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > >>S: This is why bhavana (mental development/practice) refers to the > >>development of panna and associated dhammas, not a person doing > >anything. > >> > >>Do we all agree on this as well? > >> > >========================= > > ;-) I agree with what I said. LOL! > > I ALSO agree with what you said, Sarah, so long as people (not > >you, > >and not me) don't take the true literal-level statement "There is no > >person > >doing anything" and understand it to be a true conventional statement, > >because as > >a conventional statement it is false. > .... > S: I don't know, Howard. I think everyone's already an expert at knowing > what are true conventional statements.....not sure we need to explain > this! As infants, we soon learn that 'Howard is doing this....Sarah is > doing that....' -------------------------------------------- Howard: I think there are one or two folks here who DO conflate ultimate and conventional speech and end up with mundane wrong view. (Or at least that talk in such a way.) -------------------------------------------- > .... > ><....> > >I believe that part of the problem that > >people > >have with the not-self teaching stems from conflating paramattha sacca > >with > >samutti sacca. > ... > S: I'm not sure. I think the problem is the deep-rooted ignorance about > paramattha sacca. As more understanding of paramattha sacca grows, there > is less and less confusion or conflating of these different 'truths'. You > mentioned the care that needs to be taken, but as I see it, ignorance and > wrong view are what take us off-track, not a lack of clarity in > explanations. > > In any case, thanks for your helpful comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > >BTW, I of *course* realize that you DO know what you are > >talking > >about. I'm not writing this for your benefit, but for general > >consideration. <...> > =========================== With metta, Howard #75073 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:16 am Subject: Re: Interludes (Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge) nilovg Hi Howard, Op 3-aug-2007, om 22:11 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >Howard: > > >I consider that nonsense. Nothing comes from nothing. What may > or may > > >not happen, randomly, by which I mean without basis in volition, is > > >of no > > >relevance to Dhamma practice. The Dhamma doesn't involve dumb luck. > > >It involves > > >intentional cultivation. > > -------- > > N: I said: > > I did not say: without conditions. The condition is understanding, > > nothing else. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Ahh, now I get it - 1st comes wisdom,and with that as (sole) > condition, then arises mindfulness. Hmm - I'll have to think about > that! ;-) > ------------------------------------------- > ===================== > Sorry, Nina, I just don't buy it. For me, and with apologies for > saying so, this is not the true Dhamma. ------- N: You said: 'It involves intentional cultivation.' But in order to know whether there is kusala intention or intention with lobha, thus akusala, you cannot forego pa~n~naa. Whatever you do, you need understanding. Usually intention is with lobha and what do you get: more lobha. When there is a little understanding of one's cittas there can be more understanding. What do you prefer? This is the question. Nina. #75074 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:13 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn Dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 13 txt: Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.2.uppalava.n.naatherii-apadaana, a~n~nama~n~navisadisa.m)- "Padumuttaro naama jino, sabbadhammaana paaraguu; ito satasahassamhi, kappe uppajji naayako. "Tadaaha.m ha.msavatiya.m, jaataa se.t.thikule ahu.m; naanaaratanapajjote, mahaasukhasamappitaa. "Upetvaa ta.m mahaaviira.m, assosi.m dhammadesana.m; tato jaatappasaadaaha.m, upemi sara.na.m jina.m. "Bhagavaa iddhimantiina.m, agga.m va.n.nesi naayako; bhikkhuni.m lajjini.m taadi.m, samaadhijhaanakovida.m. "Tadaa muditacittaaha.m, ta.m .thaana.m abhika"nkhinii; nimantitvaa dasabala.m, sasa"ngha.m lokanaayaka.m. PRUITT: As it is said in the Apadaana:* One hundred thousand aeons ago, the Conqueror and Leader named Padumuttara, who reached the far shore of all phenomena, was born. At that time, I was born in Ha.msavatii in the family of a wealthy merchant, gleaming with all kinds of jewels, and I enjoyed great happiness. I went to the Great Hero and heard the teaching of the Doctrine. Then faith arose in me and I went to the Conqueror for refuge. The Blessed One, the Leader, praised a bhikkhuni as best of those possessing supernormal powers. She was modest, unique, and skilled in concentration and the absorption states. Then, with a joyful mind, longing for that position, I invited the One of Ten Powers, the Leader of the World, together with the Order. *Verses 14-60 are found in Ap 551-557, n*19 (attributed to Uppalava.n.na) but in a different order. {rest of note cut}. "Bhojayitvaana sattaaha.m, datvaana ca ticiivara.m; sattamaala.m gahetvaana, uppalaadevagandhika.m. "Satthu paade .thapetvaana, ~naa.namhi abhipuujayi.m; nipacca sirasaa paade, ida.m vacanbravi.m. "Yaadisaa va.n.nitaa viira, ito a.t.thamake muni; taadisaaha.m bhavissaami, yadi sijjhati naayaka. "Tadaa avoca ma.m satthaa, vissa.t.thaa hoti daarike; anaagatamhi addhaane, lacchase ta.m manoratha.m. "Satasahassito kappe, okkaakakulasambhavo; gotamo naama gottena, satthaa loke bhavissati. I fed them for seven days, and I gave [him] the triple robes. Taking a garland of seven divine smelling lotuses, I placed them at the Teacher's feet to honour his knowledge. I fell down head first at his feet and spoke these words: "O Hero, I shall be like the one praised by you a week ago, O Sage, if it is suitable, O Leader." Then the Teacher said to me, "Be confident, young woman. In a future lifetime you will fulfil this desire. "One hundred aeons from now there will be a Teacher in the world named Gotama through his lineage, a descendant of the Okkaaka clan. "Tassa dhammesu daayaadaa, orasaa dhammanimmitaa; naamenuppalava.n.naati, ruupena ca yasassinii. "Abhi~n~naasu vasippattaa, satthusaasanakaarikaa; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, hessasii satthu saavikaa. "Tadaaha.m muditaa hutvaa, yaavajiiva.m tadaa jina.m; mettacittaa paricari.m, sasa"ngha.m lokanaayaka.m. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Tato cutaaha.m manuje, upapannaa sayambhuno; uppalehi pa.ticchanna.m, pi.n.dapaatamadaasaha.m. "There will be an heir to his Doctrine, a legitimate offspring of the Doctrine named Uppalava.n.naa, renowned for her beauty. "You will be one who attains mastery of direct knowledge, one who does the Teacher's teaching, a disciple of the Teacher with all your taints exhausted." As soon as I heard this, I was filled with appreciative joy, and throughout my life I served the Leader, the Great Seer, with the requisites with my heart full of loving kindness. As a result of that virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. Then I died there, and I was reborn among human beings. I gave alms covered with lotuses to a Self-Dependent One.* *Used as an epithet of Pacceka Buddhas (Vism 234) and teaching Buddhas (Miln 214, 227, 236 [MQ 6, 27, 39]). As a name is not given, this probably refers to a Pacceka Buddha. ===tbc, connie. #75075 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Re: Interludes (Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/10/07 9:18:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Whatever you > do, you need understanding. --------------------------------------- Howard: Do you think I doubt this? -------------------------------------- > Usually intention is with lobha and what do you get: more lobha. > When there is a little understanding of one's cittas there can be > more understanding. What do you prefer? This is the question. > > -------------------------------------- Howard: What do I prefer? What do you suppose? In any case, I study the Dhamma, Nina, and I study my mind. One without the other is incomplete practice. ==================== With metta, Howard #75076 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:25 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Nina and Jon, Sorry to have left such a mystery: N: "Scott, did you really fell into a pool or was this figurative?" J: "Clue: Grk mytholog. character (9 letters beg. 'N') ;-))" N: "I am puzzled." J: "Scott's account of seeing his reflection in the pool reminded me of the story of Narcissus, and I thought he was alluding to that. It's the kind of thing one is likely to come across in crossword puzzles, hence the format of my post ;-))" Scott: Yep, the myth of Narcissus. I was just goofing off. I didn't see a reflection of myself for a few days of camping and when I did appear before the mirror, the thing cracked due to the view. I'll get to other posts once I clean and put all the gear away. Sincerely, Scott. #75077 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:43 am Subject: The sutta on enlightenment. nilovg Hi Howard, you asked which sutta described the night the Buddha attained enlightenment, and I quoted it in my Asoka: We read in the “Middle Length Sayings” (I, 4, “Discourse on Fear and Dread”) that the Buddha related to the brahman Jåùussoùi how he spent the three watches of the night during which he attained enlightenment. In the first watch he recollected his former lives, in the second watch he directed the mind to the passing away and rebirth of beings. In the third watch he realized the four noble Truths. We read: 'Then with the mind composed... fixed, immovable, I directed my mind to the knowledge of the destruction of the cankers. I understood as it really is: This is dukkha (suffering), this is the arising of dukkha, this is the stopping of dukkha, this is the course leading to the stopping of dukkha. I understood as it really is: These are the cankers, this is the arising of the cankers, this is the stopping of the cankers, this is the course leading to the stopping of the cankers. Knowing this thus, seeing thus, my mind was freed from the canker of sense-pleasures, and my mind was freed from the canker of becoming, and my mind was freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom the knowledge came to me: I am freed; and I comprehended: Destroyed is birth, brought to a close is the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such. This, brahman, was the third knowledge attained by me in the last watch of the night; ignorance was dispelled, knowledge arose, darkness was dispelled, light arose even as I abided diligent, ardent, self- resolute.' He certainly emerged from jhana when realizing the four noble truths. -------- Nina. #75078 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The sutta on enlightenment. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/10/07 9:57:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > you asked which sutta described the night the Buddha attained > enlightenment, and I quoted it in my Asoka: > > We read in the “Middle Length Sayingsâ€? (I, 4, “Discourse on Fear and > Dreadâ€?) that the Buddha related to the brahman Jåùussoùi how he spent > the three watches of the night during which he attained > enlightenment. In the first watch he recollected his former lives, in > the second watch he directed the mind to the passing away and rebirth > of beings. In the third watch he realized the four noble Truths. We > read: > > 'Then with the mind composed... fixed, immovable, I directed my mind > to the knowledge of the destruction of the cankers. I understood as > it really is: This is dukkha (suffering), this is the arising of > dukkha, this is the stopping of dukkha, this is the course leading to > the stopping of dukkha. I understood as it really is: These are the > cankers, this is the arising of the cankers, this is the stopping of > the cankers, this is the course leading to the stopping of the > cankers. Knowing this thus, seeing thus, my mind was freed from the > canker of sense-pleasures, and my mind was freed from the canker of > becoming, and my mind was freed from the canker of ignorance. In > freedom the knowledge came to me: I am freed; and I comprehended: > Destroyed is birth, brought to a close is the Brahma-faring, done is > what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such. This, > brahman, was the third knowledge attained by me in the last watch of > the night; ignorance was dispelled, knowledge arose, darkness was > dispelled, light arose even as I abided diligent, ardent, self- > resolute.' > > He certainly emerged from jhana when realizing the four noble truths. > > -------- > Nina. ========================== Thanks you very much for this, Nina! I've saved the link. BTW, isn't there another sutta detailing the Buddha's awakening that begins with his recollection of attaining jhanas as a child while sitting under a rose-apple tree? With metta, Howard #75079 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:05 am Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative abhidhammika Dear Jon, Howard, Nina, James, Ken H, Scott D, Mike N How are you? Jon asked: "I'm not familiar with the commentary term 'Sama.na Dhamma', and would be grateful for a reference to it." There are too many references to 'Sama.na Dhamma' in the Nikaaya Commentaries. Over 400, in fact! Here is one reference from Samyutta Nikaaya A.t.thakathaa. "ekapallanke nisinnassa sama.nadhamma.m karontassa aggaphalappatti,.." Section 55, Mahaarukkhasuttava.n.naa, Nidaana Samyutta A.t.thakathaa. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: I don't want to make an issue of this, but would simply urge you not to jump to conclusions without checking to clarify (and verify) anything you might have heard. If you find anything has been said or written that you consider to be contrary to the Tipitaka and the ancient commentaries, you are most welcome to mention it here so that it can be discussed and considered against the texts. > I have been watching you, Howard, trying your best to speak on > behalf of formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa (Sama.na Dhamma > in commentary parlance) even though you are a householder yourself. I'm not familiar with the commentary term 'Sama.na Dhamma', and would be grateful for a reference to it. Jon #75080 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:04 am Subject: In Asoka's Footsteps, Ch 1, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 1 The Holy Places The Buddha was born 623 B.C. in Lumbini as Prince Siddhattha, son of Suddhodana, King of the Såkyas and Queen Måya. He attained enlightenment at the age of thirtyfive in Bodh Gaya; he delivered his first sermon in Sarnath, at the Deerpark of Isipatana, and, after having taught for fortyfive years, he passed finally away in Kusinåra. Countless people have visited the holy places, century after century, and also today people visit the place where the Buddha was born, where he attained enlightenment, where he delivered his first sermon and where he passed finally away. The Buddha had, as a Bodhisatta, accumulated all the “perfections” (påramís) during aeons. These perfections are: liberality (dåna), morality (síla), renunciation (nekkhamma), wisdom (paññå), energy (viriya), patience (khanti), truthfulness (sacca), resolution (aditthåna), loving kindness (mettå) and equanimity (upekkhå). Before he was to be born as a human being in his last life, he stayed in the “Tusita Heaven”. He had fulfilled all the perfections and now the time had come for his last birth as Prince Siddhattha Gotama. In the “Discourse on Wonderful and Marvellous Qualities” (Middle Length Sayings III, 123) we read that the Buddha asked Ånanda to deliver to the monks a Discourse on the wonderful and marvellous qualities of the Tathågata. We read that he arose in Tusita Heaven mindful and clearly conscious, remained there mindful and clearly conscious, and stayed there as long as his lifespan lasted. These were wonderful and marvellous qualities of the Lord. We read in the same sutta that he ascended in the womb of Queen Måya who gave birth in Lumbini Gardens after ten months, while standing, and that four devas received the new-born and placed him in front of his mother. There appeared then from the sky two streams of water, one cool and one warm, which were used for a water-libation for the Bodhisatta and his mother. In Lumbini we saw the pillar King Asoka had erected 249 B.C. when he payed hommage at the place where the Buddha was born. An inscription on the pillar says that King Asoka, after having been anointed for twenty years, came himself and worshipped this spot, because the Buddha Sakyamuni was born here. The inscription also says that King Asoka made the village of Lumbini free of taxes and that it had to pay only an eighth share of the produce. There is also a temple in honour of Queen Måya erected on an older structure, but today this temple is not accessible. Queen Måya died on the seventh day after the birth of the Bodhisatta, as is always the case for the Bodhisatta’s mother [1]. We paid respect going around the pillar with chanting and we sat near a pool which reminds us of the water- libation for the Bodhisatta and his mother. We recited texts from the scriptures and the commentary on the Chronicle of Buddhas (Buddhavamsa, the “Clarifier of Sweet Meaning”) concerning the birth of the Bodhisatta. Afterwards we had a Dhamma discussion. ---------- 1.Before the Buddha Gotama there were other Buddhas who also found the Truth all by themselves. Also in the case of former Buddhas the mother of the Bodhisatta died on the seventh day after his birth. ******* Nina. #75081 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:24 am Subject: Re: Interludes (Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge) nilovg Hi Howard, Op 10-aug-2007, om 15:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Whatever you > > do, you need understanding. > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Do you think I doubt this? ------- N: you gave me reasons to wonder. I wrote: > I did not say: without conditions. The condition is understanding, > nothing else. you answered: Ahh, now I get it - 1st comes wisdom,and with that as (sole) condition, then arises mindfulness. Hmm - I'll have to think about that! ;-) Sorry, Nina, I just don't buy it. For me, and with apologies for saying so, this is not the true Dhamma. -------- N: so, what is not true dhamma, perhaps I misunderstood? Nina. #75082 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:13 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Howard, > Exactly so! The same is true in other suttas as well, including the > one which describes the night that Gotama became a Buddha. BTW, do > you or anyone else here know what sutta that is? (I've asked before > but no one replied.) There are quite a few of them: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036x.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.004.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.019.than.html > > I am also puzzled as to why the four immaterial jhanas are not > > included as Right Concentration, yet it is mentioned in the > > Anupada Sutta. > > Howard: I've heard it said that the jhanas above the 4th are > variants of the 4th, not differing in factors but only in > object-content. My view is that because the objects of the four immaterial jhanas cannot be the four frames of reference, hence they technically cannot be classified under Right Concentration of the NEP. The Buddha can't be shooting himself in the foot! But a Buddha disciple may at his discretion, attain the four immaterial jhanas and the cesstion of perception & feeling by utilizing the Buddhist fourth jhana as a platform and subsequently carry out insight investigation of the states within those jhanas. Such activities are within the framework of the NEP, and does not constitute Wrong Concentration. > > Absorption into jhanas using these kasina devices lead to wrong > > samatha ('dead' samatha!) and nil insight! It's a dead end indeed. > > Howard: Unless, of course, the mind-door object switches from the > kasina to the thinking that produces it. But this is impossible while being absorbed in these kasina-based jhanas, isn't it? > Howard: It is true, I believe, that in the jhanas no door is > operative except the mind door, but that is no problem at all, > for the mind has enormous capacity beyond that of apprehending > pa~n~natti. I don't know if that is true. In the Samadhanga Sutta, the Buddha speaks of "permeating the body" while in the jhanas. ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.028.than.html ... There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. ... Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure. ... And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful and alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters and remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous and mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. ... And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Therefore I am of the opinion that all six sense doors can be operative even while in the fourth jhana. Imagine the pure bright awareness of all the sense objects coming through the six sense doors. Ripe for insight investigation! Swee Boon #75083 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:04 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 10, Repetition-condition, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 10 Repetition-Condition (Åsevana-Paccaya) Repetition-condition, åsevana-paccaya, pertains only to nåma, namely to the javana-cittas arising in a process of cittas. Javana-cittas are kusala, akusala or, in the case of arahats, kiriya. With regard to cittas of the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas, there are usually seven javana-cittas in a process of cittas and these are all of the same jåti, kusala, akusala or kiriya [1]. The first javana-citta conditions the second javana-citta by repetition-condition, åsevana- paccaya, thus, the first javana-citta is the conditioning dhamma (paccaya dhamma) and the second one is the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). After that the second javana-citta which is in its turn the conditioning dhamma, conditions the third one, and so on, until the seventh javana-citta which does not condition the succeeding citta in this way since it is the last javana-citta. We read in the “Patthåna (Analytical Exposition, Repetition-condition): Preceding faultless states (kusala dhammas) are related to subsequent faultless states by repetition-condition. Preceding faulty states (akusala dhammas) are related to subsequent faulty states by repetition-condiiton. Preceding functional indeterminate states [2] are related to subsequent functional indeterminate states by repetition-condition. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XVII, 87) about repetition-condition: A dhamma that assists the efficiency and power of the proximate (next) in the sense of repetition-condition, like repeated application to books, and so on.... Just as one, in learning by heart, through constant repetition, becomes more proficient in reciting texts, evenso supports the preceding javana-citta the succeeding one by repetition-condition. ------------ 1.Cittas can be of four jåtis, or classes, namely: kusala, akusala, vipåka and kiriya. Jåti literally means “birth” or nature. 2. avyakata dhammas, neither kusala nor akusala, which are in this case functional, kiriya. ******* Nina. #75084 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:19 am Subject: Re: Interludes (Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/10/07 11:40:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > Op 10-aug-2007, om 15:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >Whatever you > >>do, you need understanding. > > > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >Do you think I doubt this? > ------- > N: you gave me reasons to wonder. > I wrote: > >I did not say: without conditions. The condition is understanding, > >nothing else. > > you answered: Ahh, now I get it - 1st comes wisdom,and with that as > (sole) > condition, then arises mindfulness. Hmm - I'll have to think about > that! ;-) > > Sorry, Nina, I just don't buy it. For me, and with apologies for > saying so, this is not the true Dhamma. > -------- > N: so, what is not true dhamma, perhaps I misunderstood? > Nina. =========================== My point was that although every path factor is a condition for every other one, mindfulness (and concentration also, for that matter) is far more prerequisite for wisdom than the other way around. I don't think the opposite teaching is true Dhamma. In fact, if Dhamma practice must await the arising of a wisdom that is anything more than the intellectual knowledge of the basics of the Dhamma, then it will never commence at all. We begin with little in the way of true wisdom, and true wisdom will not arise just by studying the Dhamma any more than reading a cake recipe will provide dessert. We are, however, already directly familiar with mindfulness and concentration on the basis of everyday functioning. These namic abilities are present in all normally functioning humans, but they need to be enhanced, and, of course, they need to be applied usefully. Obviously if they are not applied as the Buddha taught they will not lead to good results. The Buddhadhamma is the map, and without a map we just get lost, just as there is no way to bake a cake without knowing the proper ingredients. But that goes pretty much without saying. There is no being a Buddhist without studying the Dhamma. Nina, you have been reading my posts for a good while now. You say I gave you reasons to wonder whether one needs understanding. After all this time of reading my posts, I don't see how one sentence of mine should make you wonder that. If anything, it seems to me that you should assume that I simply didn't make myself clear, and ask for further detail or a reformulation instead of wondering about something that you have ample evidence of long standing is not the case. With metta, Howard #75085 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 8/10/07 12:17:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > >Exactly so! The same is true in other suttas as well, including the > >one which describes the night that Gotama became a Buddha. BTW, do > >you or anyone else here know what sutta that is? (I've asked before > >but no one replied.) > > There are quite a few of them: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036x.than.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.004.than.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.019.than.html ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! :-) -------------------------------------------- > > >>I am also puzzled as to why the four immaterial jhanas are not > >>included as Right Concentration, yet it is mentioned in the > >>Anupada Sutta. > > > >Howard: I've heard it said that the jhanas above the 4th are > >variants of the 4th, not differing in factors but only in > >object-content. > > My view is that because the objects of the four immaterial jhanas > cannot be the four frames of reference, hence they technically cannot > be classified under Right Concentration of the NEP. The Buddha can't > be shooting himself in the foot! --------------------------------------- Howard: You may be right. --------------------------------------- > > But a Buddha disciple may at his discretion, attain the four > immaterial jhanas and the cesstion of perception &feeling by > utilizing the Buddhist fourth jhana as a platform and subsequently > carry out insight investigation of the states within those jhanas. > > Such activities are within the framework of the NEP, and does not > constitute Wrong Concentration. > > >>Absorption into jhanas using these kasina devices lead to wrong > >>samatha ('dead' samatha!) and nil insight! It's a dead end indeed. > > > >Howard: Unless, of course, the mind-door object switches from the > >kasina to the thinking that produces it. > > But this is impossible while being absorbed in these kasina-based > jhanas, isn't it? --------------------------------------- Howard: I think you are correct. -------------------------------------- > > >Howard: It is true, I believe, that in the jhanas no door is > >operative except the mind door, but that is no problem at all, > >for the mind has enormous capacity beyond that of apprehending > >pa~n~natti. > > I don't know if that is true. > > In the Samadhanga Sutta, the Buddha speaks of "permeating the body" > while in the jhanas. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but I do not think the knowing is via the body-door. ==================== With metta, Howard #75086 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:58 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply. There was pondering while slogging through the bush. May I first critique my own hasty statement: Me: "And so, to me, 'continuity' is the illusion, and the ultimate, ongoing situation is one of contiguity. I believe the Abhidhamma clarification is that there is no gap between the ceasing of one moment and the arising of the next...." Scott: Continuity is not the 'illusion' as I believe I incorrectly noted above. The misunderstanding of the perception of continuity leads to a taking for wholes that which is the arising and ceasing of dhammas. Tep: "I don't know about the "Abhidhamma clarification". What I think I know is that continuity is not an illusion. If it were illusion, then that would be the same as saying "there is no flame in the real world". We know there are flames that can burn a finger or a forest! A rainbow is real, and a mirage is also a real physical phenomena, and they are conditioned reality caused by a number of factors. Flows of electron are real (since we see a motor is turned and a light bulb is lit). The fact that we do not see electrons only the effects of the electron flows does not mean that electrons are illusion. Forgive me if I missed your point." Scott: So, as I tried to correct above, 'continuity' is the process of dhammas arising and ceasing and is 'real' in that sense. You correctly disabuse me of the statement I made. However, the next points diverge. I'd suggest that 'flame', 'finger', 'forest', 'rainbow', 'electrons', are all concepts and refer to illusory objects created out of the misunderstanding of continuity and thinking about this. There are, ultimately, no 'wholes'. Why is it necessary to assert the 'reality' of things we might see as 'whole' but saddhaa allows are not as they seem? While camping, as the kids were wading around in the shallows of the Bighorn River, I sat and noticed I was listening to the river flowing by. This was hearing. Hearing or listening, I think, is naama, and the sound was ruupa. This experience seemed to be whole (and continuous in the misapprehended sense of the word). I was thinking of river, water, the flowing of water, the rocks and boulders forming the bed of the river, the various currents and eddies structured thereby - I was thinking of the Bighorn River. Despite all appearances to the contrary, there is no river ultimately. Of course I perceive 'river' because of the many moments of naama that intervene between the clear moment of seeing and the moment of perception where atta-sa~n~na creates the illusion. I opened my eyes and could see the river, the boulders, the banks, the lodgepole pine and white spruce trees on the slopes which rose to meet the mountains on either side of the valley. Again, this was looking and thinking and naama. I was thinking of trees, mountains, scenery - of wholes. Anyways, I suppose you get my drift here. No rainbows, just colour. And a whole lot of clinging and enjoyment and total immersion in samsaara. We can discuss continuity further if you wish. As it says in Note 72 to Visuddhimagga XIV (p.818-819): "The explanation of continuity and period are given in the Commentaries for the purpose of helping the practise of insight." Since we are discussing satipa.t.thaana, I think a further critical examination of continuity is warranted. Interested? Sincerely, Scott. #75087 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:31 am Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative buddhatrue Hi Ken H., Just a few quick comments: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > One thing for sure - without any false modesty - my understanding is > that of a beginner. James: How could a beginner know that his understanding is that of a beginner? It would take someone of advanced understanding to tell that person that his/her understanding is that of a beginner. Did someone tell you that you have the understanding of a beginner? If not, and you have determined for yourself that "I have the understanding of a beginner", than that is false modesty. After all, if you have weak (beginner's) understanding, then you couldn't determine the understanding of others or yourself. Frankly, I believe it is equally harmful to claim false expertise (to state "I am enlightened" when one isn't) as it is to claim false ignorance ("I am just a beginner" when one has been studying Buddhism for decades). Better just to say nothing about such personal status and leave the evaluations to others. (This is one of my pet peeves and I have confronted Sarah, Nina, and Jon on this issue more than once- so I hope you don't feel picked on ;-)). Therefore, in that way, it is not the same as K > Sujin's understanding. James: Again, it is not helpful to compare oneself to others. From what I have read, KS also discourages this type of comparison. Nor is it the same as any of her students. James: When I wrote that Sarah, Nina, and you all have different takes on KS, I mean that there are different interpretations based on personal accumulations and preferences, I didn't mean at all "levels of insight". It seems strange to me that you would take my words in such a way. All > of us who agree with KS's perspective (which, I must stress, is also > the perspective of the ancient commentaries, the Abhidhamma and the > Pali texts as a whole) James: I have to disagree. It is a perspective which gives an over- emphasis on the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. If the perspective was balanced there wouldn't be any disagreement. have different levels of intellectual > understanding. James: You each have different perspectives, there is no need to think about "levels of intellectual understanding". However, I think we all have a grasp of the following > basics: > > There are only dhammas: there is no self: therefore, ultimate > reality is very different from conventional reality: and real > practice very different from formal practice. James: Real practice is formal practice. At the ultimate level is there is no practice- practice occurs at the conventional level. > > Unfortunately, it seems that this grasp of the basics put us at odds > with 99.99% of today's Buddhist World. James: This is yet another form of conceit. You are putting yourself and your fellow students of KS into the category of martyrs, "the disenfranchised", and "the misunderstood"- then it becomes an "US vs. THE WORLD" situation. That is grandiose thinking and very inaccurate. > > Ken H > Metta, James #75088 From: "sjackson07513" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:38 am Subject: Re: Samayutta Nikayas/Abhidhamma?Khun Sujin/Nina VanGorkom sjackson07513 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Steve, > > Op 10-aug-2007, om 4:22 heeft sjackson07513 het volgende geschreven: > > > Later as I studied > > more Dhamma esp. the Samayutta Nikayas I felt very inclined to apply > > Satipatthana very directly in my daily life. I came to see the > > Satipatthana Sutta in a subtlely paradoxical way in that the way out > > of suffering was somehow life itself, that what was contained in the > > 4 Foundations was life now looked at! I especially feel inclined > > even now to the practice of the six sense bases in the Samayutta and > > I am picking up some Abhidhamma along the way. This notion of not > > identifying "practice" with "sitting" makes semse to me since the > > three other postures seems always included... in many places in the > > Pali canon. > --------- > N: As you study the Kindred Sayings IV, you will see that what we > take for the world or our life are the objects as they appear one at > a time through the six doors. See for example §82, 84, 85. You can > prove to yourself that when visible object appears none of the other > objects appear at the same time. Actually, our life is only the > experience of one object through one doorway at a time. > When hardness appears through the bodysense, there is no thought of > posture. We can think of the whole body that is sitting and it is > because of remembrance, sa~n~na, that we perceive a posture of the > body. We cling to an idea of my body that takes a specific posture > but in the ultimate sense there is no body, no posture. > This understanding can be gradually developed. We should understand > the difference between concepts and ultimate realities. > Someone asked how one can have metta when there is no person in the > ultimate sense. Kh Sujin asked: who had the greatest metta? It was > the Buddha. When there is right understanding of anatta one does not > take metta for self, metta becomes purer. One is not misled by > stories about other people who say or do this or that and behave in a > disagreeable way. > The satipatthanasutta teaches us about daily life. At first sight it > seems that it deals with conventional notions, but these are ways of > bringing us back to the reality appearing at the present moment so > that is can be seen as it is: as anatta. That is the goal of this > sutta and all other suttas. > ---------- > S: Please help my understanding of the type of vipassana Khun Sujin > teaches, which it seems, I am so inclined. > ------------ > Kh. Sujin does not teach differently from the Tipitaka, and it is not > her personal teaching. > > Nina. > > Nina, Thank you very much for this response which is a kind of green light, so to speak, to practice in the way I felt inclined fairly early on. I had had the chance to speak to Bhikkhu Bodhi about practcing the satipattha sutta without reference to a particulat method, per se, such as the Mahasi, but gradually, especially with refernce to the six sense bases, in the context of my life. I will continue to study, esp. the Samayutta Nikaya, some Abhidhamma, and of course, the Satipattha Sutta itself. I will reference your own writings and those of Khun Sujin. With metta, Steve > > > > #75089 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,177 indriyabala Hi Larry (and Nina) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Nina will explain all in a couple of days. It has to do with how > "formations" is a condition for "consciousness" in dependent arising. > Beginning with "formations of merit", i.e., wholesome volitional > consciousness which is 1. accompanied by joy, prompted, with knowledge, > 2. accompanied by joy, unprompted, with knowledge, 3. accompanied by > joy, prompted, without knowledge, 4 accompanied by joy, unprompted, > without knowledge, 5. accompanied by equanimity, prompted, with > knowledge, 6. accompanied by equanimity, unprompted, with knowledge, 7. > accompanied by equanimity, prompted without knowledge, 8. accompanied by > equanimity, unprompted, without knowledge, these 8 consciousnesses > condition 9 kinds of rebirth-linking consciousness by way of kamma > condition and decisive support condition. Also, 5 kinds of jhana > volitional consciousness condition 5 kinds of resultant rebirth- linking > consciousness. In the dependent arising formula "formations" is kamma > and "consciousness" is kamma result. > > Larry > Thank you very much for replying to the request. Since your explanation is clear and useful for me already, I think we should not ask Nina to give me an expert help. Tep === #75090 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:06 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah (and Scott), - >T: Perhaps, the signless concentration has no object. Don't you think so? S: I think the object is nibbana, the animitta (signless) dhamma. T: Interesting! What about void and desireless concentrations -- is nibbana their object too? Tep === #75091 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,177 lbidd2 Hi Tep, This is an on-going project in which I post a paragraph from the Visuddhimagga from the chapter on dependent arising and then a couple of days later Nina explains it using the untranslated commentary as a main reference point. Larry #75093 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:21 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah (and KenH), - I am now replying to your message #75063. S: Thx for highlighting some of your comments in the thread with Ken H and being willing to discuss these points further. T: Thank you for not immediately rejecting those comments right away like Ken did! .......... > T: (#74911) At the paramattha-dhamma level there are only cittas, cetasikas, ruupa and nibbana. These dhammas are all anatta, but it is a different matter to say too strongly that "anatta means no one practises". Why? Because if there is no 'patipatti', or there is no 'patipada', then there will not be eradication of dukkkha through the cessation of kamma. .... S: Why does saying strongly "anatta means no one practises" imply "there is no 'patipatti', or there is no 'patipada'"? T: Because if there is no one practices the "sekha patipada", then there is no arahant. The one who practices exists in the real world where '... there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' It is a wrong view to deny that (see MN 117). ..... S: So why do we read about anatta at all or about 'suffering, but no sufferer' etc? Why is kamma said to refer to cetana, a mental state, and vipaka to more cittas and mental states? I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but I don't follow your logic here, Tep. T: First, I have to say that what I have written so far is not based on my logic, Sarah. Indeed, it is based on the Biddha's words of great wisdom. If there was "no sufferer", then there would be no motivation for people like you and me to find the way to eradicate suffering -- i.e. by practicing according to the Noble Eightfold Path. The "no sufferer" is the perspective of the 'ariya puggala' who has complete detachment from 'naama & ruupa'. We should not confuse the real world that we see with the paramattha world that the arahants see -- both worlds are real; the confusion is caused by having a confused perspective of the non-ariyans. BTW I do not recall any sutta with 'suffering, but no sufferer', except the Vism. ......... S: This is correct sammuti sacca or vohara sacca as long as we know that we are only using the terms like the Buddha conventionally and for convenience, like the chariot. We say "I see, I hear", but really there is no "I" to do anything, surely? T: I think the vohara sacca is a poor terminology. The "I" conceit results from clinging to the khandhas of a non-arahant, as you know it. Thus there is the 'I', but no conceit due to attachment. So we should say there was 'Rahula', who had practiced according to the Buddha's instruction, before "he" attained the arahantship (in a single moment?). Other monka saw arahant Rahula walking and talking, but Rahula's "I- conceit" had terminated. So there was no Rahula being perceived by the arahant himself; but for others the great monk Rahula existed. That's how I understand it. Reject it if you think it is wrong -- it is a discussion, anyway. ......... S: I think that even when scientists talk about atoms, they are not any closer to understanding anatta. It's not scientific theory, as you'll agree, but the ultimate truth about all dhammas, to be directly experienced in 'practice', 'patipatti'. T: How can scientists who have not developed anatta-sa~n~na understand 'anatta' in the All? IMHO the ultimate truth is experienced only by the trainers(sekha)after they have developed and cultivated the sekha-patipada (e.g. MN 53). "He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. This is how the disciple of the noble ones is consummate in virtue. ... the disciple of the noble ones guards the doors to his sense faculties ...the disciple of the noble ones knows moderation in eating ... is devoted to wakefulness ... the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with seven qualities (1. is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening, 2. hiri, 3. ottappa, 4. well- penetrated in terms of his views, 5. is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities, 6. is mindful and highly meticulous, 7. is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away)." .......... S: Can we say that whatever language or perspective we are using, in truth there are no persons doing anything and that bhavana is never performed by a person? T: (That is a tricky question.) No, since the truth depends on which perspective it is based on. The thought that there are beings or persons (instead of only naama & ruupa) is conditioned by upadana. Because there is upadana, there is bhava and birth, and the whole mass of suffering cannot be avoided. To terminate upadana one practices the Dhamma, according to the noble eightfold path. Given the ariyan's view, there is no perception (of one who practices rightly with yathabhta-dassana) that there is a person ('I') who practices to eradicate dukkha. This is due to anatta-sa~n~na, I believe. Yet, the five aggregates (of clinging) right now and those in the past (that already passed away) cannot be said to be totally separate (see Milinda Panha) such that there is no vipaka of kamma that passed from the past. Thus we should not have a view too strong as follows: "in truth there are no persons doing anything and that bhavana is never performed by a person". Again, please be welcome to reject this argument. .......... T: This post is too long already, so I am stopping now. I believe your remaining questions about Rahula can be answered by my above "arguments". Thank you very much for the patience to read thus far. KenH, this long post was written with "you" in mind. Thanks. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, (Howard & all), > > Thx for highlighting some of your comments in the thread with Ken H and being willing to discuss these points further: > > > The following sutta is a good example that supports my real-world > > perspective view. > > > > [MN 61] Therefore, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify my bodily acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal acts through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental acts > > through repeated reflection.' Thus you should train yourself. > > > > T: MN 61 shows that there was a person (named Rahula) who followed the Buddha's advice about the development of three right conducts. Later after more listening and more practices, he became an arahant. > > Did ultimate realities, or Rahula, become arahant? > ... > S: Thx for your good question. > > The magga citta (of the arahant) which eradicated all defilements was an impermanent lokuttara citta accompanied by the various path factors beginning with the highest degree of right understanding (samma ditthi). > > Referring to such states as Rahula or the arahant is for conventional convenience only. > > In your view, Tep, what dhammas does Rahula consist of? If we had met Rahula, what dhammas would have been experienced? > > I know this is a sensitive topic which touches on aspects of practice and core understanding and I know you're discussing related aspects with others as well. I think it's a useful one too,so hope you don't mind these further comments. > > I'll look forward to hearing anyone else's views too. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========== #75094 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:50 pm Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative kenhowardau Hi James, ---------- KH: > > One thing for sure - without any false modesty - my understanding is that of a beginner. > > James: > How could a beginner know that his understanding is that of a beginner? ----------- We might be talking at cross purposes here. I meant what I said in the ordinary sense of "beginner." To give an example; if you were to ask me which citta followed immediately after the sense-cognition citta I would have to look it up (as I have just done). Some others here could tell you straight away it was 'receiving consciousness' (sampathcchana-citta) and they would be able to add helpful explanations. Therefore, by comparison with them, I am a beginner, aren't I? There is a sense in which it is not so easy to tell who is, and is not, a beginner, and I suppose that is what you are talking about. I would agree that none of us knows how much right study and right practice has taken place in previous existences. Angulimalia, to give an extreme example, was a crazy serial killer who was trying to spear the Buddha. Only a Buddha could have known there were conditions for Anguliamalia to attain Stream-entry right there and then. ----------------------- J: > It would take someone of advanced understanding to tell that person that his/her understanding is that of a beginner. Did someone tell you that you have the understanding of a beginner? If not, and you have determined for yourself that "I have the understanding of a beginner", than that is false modesty. After all, if you have weak (beginner's) understanding, then you couldn't determine the understanding of others or yourself. ----------------------- That sounds right to me. But you are talking about the second kind of knowing. In the first kind there can be no doubt. Give me an Abhidhamma test and I will do very poorly in comparison with K Sujin's students - let alone with K Sujin herself. Even though I began Abhidhamma studies about seven years ago I haven't made much progress. That is simply due to laziness. Energetic students (like Scott, for example) overtake me in just a few months. It's no big deal, and I am beginning to wish I hadn't mentioned it!:-) -------------------------------- J: > Frankly, I believe it is equally harmful to claim false expertise (to state "I am enlightened" when one isn't) as it is to claim false ignorance ("I am just a beginner" when one has been studying Buddhism for decades). --------------------------------- That is something the "no-controllers" at DSG have been telling the formal meditators all along: Leave self out of your Dhamma studies! Learn how everything is ultimately just conditioned dhammas performing their functions. Why would you want to be thinking about "James" and "James's progress" when there are no conditioned dhammas called James? --------------------------------------------- J: > Better just to say nothing about such personal status and leave the evaluations to others. --------------------------------------------- I don't know of anyone who claims the ability to evaluate accumulated conditions for enlightenment. It sounds like hocus pocus to me. ---------------------------------- J: > (This is one of my pet peeves and I have confronted Sarah, Nina, and Jon on this issue more than once- so I hope you don't feel picked on ;-)). ---------------------------------- No, don't worry about me. :-) I wonder if you had the same misunderstanding with them as you are having with me. Perhaps they too were talking about the ordinary (academic) meaning of "beginners understanding." -------------------------- > Therefore, in that way, it is not the same as K > Sujin's understanding. James: Again, it is not helpful to compare oneself to others. From what I have read, KS also discourages this type of comparison. Nor is it the same as any of her students. James: When I wrote that Sarah, Nina, and you all have different takes on KS, I mean that there are different interpretations based on personal accumulations and preferences, I didn't mean at all "levels of insight". It seems strange to me that you would take my words in such a way. ------------------------- No, I didn't take your words that way. You (along with Howard and Suan and several others) think that I take anatta and the momentary nature of existence to an extreme that others here avoid. That is understandable, but I disagree. I have my own way of expressing these things, but my understanding of Abhidhamma principles is pretty much the same as all the other "no-controllers" at DSG (I hope). You know how strict Sarah can be: if she thought I was espousing a Dhamma of my own she would soon put me in my place. :-) ----------------------- All > of us who agree with KS's perspective (which, I must stress, is also > the perspective of the ancient commentaries, the Abhidhamma and the > Pali texts as a whole) James: I have to disagree. It is a perspective which gives an over- emphasis on the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. If the perspective was balanced there wouldn't be any disagreement. ------------------------ So it seems to you, but to my way of thinking there is no imbalance. The teaching that is sometimes given in brief is the same teaching that is given in detail. Any preceived difference between the two is a misperception. There are no conflicts between the various parts of the Tipitaka. --------------------------------- <. . .> > and real > practice very different from formal practice. James: Real practice is formal practice. At the ultimate level there is no practice- practice occurs at the conventional level. ------------- I don't expect you to agree with it, but, for some reason, you flatly refuse to even see the paramattha dhamma explanation. In ultimate reality, the practice of satipatthana is a fleeting moment of consciousness in which a conditioned dhamma is directly known by samma-ditthi and samma-sati, etc, etc. The idea that there is a person who sits down and makes satipatthana happen is (according to this explanation) a wrong idea. And it will never lead to satipatthana. --------------------------- > > Unfortunately, it seems that this grasp of the basics put us at odds > with 99.99% of today's Buddhist World. James: This is yet another form of conceit. You are putting yourself and your fellow students of KS into the category of martyrs, "the disenfranchised", and "the misunderstood"- then it becomes an "US vs. THE WORLD" situation. That is grandiose thinking and very inaccurate. --------------------------- You, and other critics of KS, are constantly pointing out that none of the other well known Dhamma teachers say exactly what she says (e.g., that anatta means there is no control). But now when I agree with you you tell me I am conceited! :-) Ken H #75095 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:13 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Scott, - The insight you gained during the camping is fascinating. >Tep: A rainbow is real, and a mirage is also a real physical phenomenon, and they are conditioned realities caused by a number of factors. Flows of electrons are real (since we see a motor turned and a light bulb lit). The fact that we do not see electrons, but only the effects of the electron flows, does not mean that electrons are illusion. Scott: I'd suggest that 'flame', 'finger','forest', 'rainbow', 'electrons', are all concepts and refer to illusory objects created out of the misunderstanding of continuity and thinking about this. There are, ultimately, no 'wholes'. Why is it necessary to assert the 'reality' of things we might see as 'whole' but saddhaa allows are not as they seem? T: I can see a "coming together", or a "whole", that is due to clinging(upadana) as an illusion (wrong view, e.g. seeing the five aggregates of clinging as 'mine, I, my self'.). So I agree that illusory (mind)objects are "created out of the misunderstanding of continuity and thinking about this". Thus no (mental)illusion results if there is pa~n~na that overcomes clinging, but the five senses still detect presence of a person. If the monks and the Buddha were illusory, then there would be no Teachings and hearing of the Dhamma. (I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks replied.) But a rainbow (also a flame, a finger,..) is a coming together of physical conditions, e.g. in the rainbow case, water vapors in the air, sunlight, air temperature, and position of the viewer that has nothing to do with perception. How do you see "saddhaa" as a part of the problem? ............... Scott: I was thinking of river, water, the flowing of water, the rocks and boulders forming the bed of the river, the various currents and eddies structured thereby - I was thinking of the Bighorn River. Despite all appearances to the contrary, there is no river ultimately. Of course I perceive 'river' because of the many moments of naama that intervene between the clear moment of seeing and the moment of perception where atta-sa~n~na creates the illusion. I opened my eyes and could see the river, the boulders, the banks, the lodgepole pine and white spruce trees on the slopes which rose to meet the mountains on either side of the valley. Again, this was looking and thinking and naama. I was thinking of trees, mountains, scenery - of wholes. Anyways, I suppose you get my drift here. No rainbows, just colour. And a whole lot of clinging and enjoyment and total immersion in samsaara. T: Beautiful writing! And I particularly like the atta-sa~n~na idea. In another discussion with Sarah I talked about 'anatta-sa~n~na' in an arahant that was responsible for seeing no 'I' (due to mana -- conceit). But it doesn't mean that the arahants were invible to each other and to other humans. ............. Scott: Since we are discussing satipa.t.thaana, I think a further critical examination of continuity is warranted. Interested? Tep: I am truly interested, Scott. I think you have a way with words that are clarifying and convincing. Thank you for the post. Tep === #75096 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:23 pm Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative scottduncan2 Dear Suan, I hope you are well. Thanks for the reference: Suan: "There are too many references to 'Sama.na Dhamma' in the Nikaaya Commentaries. Over 400, in fact! Here is one reference from Samyutta Nikaaya A.t.thakathaa. "ekapallanke nisinnassa sama.nadhamma.m karontassa aggaphalappatti,.." Section 55, Mahaarukkhasuttava.n.naa, Nidaana Samyutta A.t.thakathaa." Scott: Here's my attempt at translation. Please correct and elucidate if you would: "A certain recluse, sitting cross-legged, and thus seated forms the highest result of attainment, the most excellent fruit..." Scott: I'd hazard a guess that the sama.nadhamma refers to the arising of the path at the level of the arahant. What is the context of this reference? Sincerely, Scott. #75097 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative nilovg Dear Scott, this is very interesting. I read in the Co (I believe that one on the eggs that should be well hatched) that some could attain arahatship 'in one session'. Nina. Op 11-aug-2007, om 5:23 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Scott: Here's my attempt at translation. Please correct and > elucidate if you would: > > "A certain recluse, sitting cross-legged, and thus seated forms the > highest result of attainment, the most excellent fruit..." > > Scott: I'd hazard a guess that the sama.nadhamma refers to the > arising of the path at the level of the arahant. What is the context > of this reference? #75098 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Samayutta Nikayas/Abhidhamma?Khun Sujin/Nina VanGorkom sarahprocter... Hi Steve, Back sooner that I thought... --- sjackson07513 wrote: > May I say to all that I feel quite happty even at the end of a > somewhat tough shift as a nurse on a psychiatric unit. And I have to > be there tomorrow at 6 am! ... Sarah: As we both agree, cittas, cetasikas and rupas are arising and just as real whilst working on a tough shift! Just to stress the point, as you rightly say: ... >This notion of not > identifying "practice" with "sitting" makes semse to me since the > three other postures seems always included... in many places in the > Pali canon. ... Sarah: Yes, as we read in the Satipatthana Sutta and throughout the teachings, there can be the development of satipatthana in any position. Positions are concepts we have after all. People in the Buddha's time developed insight whilst following all kinds of activities. Back to the question at the beginning of #75046: .... > Please help my understanding of the type of vipassana Khun Sujin > teaches, which it seems, I am so inclined. .... Sarah: As I read the texts, there is only one kind of vipassana - that referring to insight, the vipassana nanas. These refer to the developed wisdom or panna which directly understands the nature of dhammas (namas and rupas). To clarify further, here is a transcript Nina posted (#50638) of a discussion between a Cambodian dhamma teacher, But Sawong, and Khun Sujin on this question: ***** >But Sawong: Everybody has heard the term satipaììhåna, and sometimes also the term vipassanå. One may wonder what the difference is between satipaììhåna and vipassanå. There are two kinds of tasks in Buddhism: the occupation with the texts, that is, the study of the Buddha¹s words, and the task of vipassanå, the development of vipassanå. Sujin: Vipassanå is the paññå that clearly penetrates the characteristics of dhammas and knows them as they are. When people hear about the characteristics of the realities that are citta, cetasika and rúpa, they do not penetrate the characteristics of these dhammas. They merely hear about the different dhammas which are citta, cetasika and rúpa. This does not mean that there is paññå that clearly realizes the characteristics of citta, cetasika and rúpa. The right cause, thus, paññå, should be developed so that the characteristics of citta, cetasika and rúpa can be realized as they are. Paññå cannot arise immediately if it has not been developed first. Paññå should gradually be developed and then it can grow a little at a time. If someone says that it is not necessary to develop paññå and that one does not need to know much in order to clearly realize the characteristics of dhammas, can we believe him? If that were true the paññå of the Sammåsambuddha and his teaching would be of no use, it would not have any meaning. However, the Buddha taught the Dhamma for fortyfive years, he taught the Dhamma also to us who are living at this time.> ... > I especially relate to the starting refernce point/purpose...anatta... ... Sarah: I'm glad to hear this. This is the true significance of the Buddha's teachings as I see it. Btw, more on 'vipassana' in 'Useful Posts' in the files under 'v'. Metta, Sarah ========= #75099 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Thx for your further clarifications on samaadhi... --- Tep Sastri wrote: > S: At moments of enlightenment, the samaadhi is of a degree > *equivalent* to that of first jhaana at least, but I'm not sure we > can say it is 'marked by the first jhaana'. Maybe just a question of > terminology or maybe a reflection of the old debate on whether jhana > as basis is a necessity. > > T: You're right about the terminology problem we may have here. To > be 'marked by the first jhaana' is my own wording. What I mean to say > is: it is the beginning of samaadhi that has both vitakka & vicara. .... S: I thought we were discussing the samma samaadhi of the noble eightfold path at the time of enlightenment. As you say, vitakka (samma sankappa in the NEP) and vicara are present, unless higher jhanas were attained and were the 'basis' for the subsequently arising NEP. .... > For example, MN 125 (Dantabhumi Sutta) states as follows. > > "The Tathagata then disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, > fare along contemplating the body in the body, but do not apply > yourself to a train of thought connected with the body; fare along > contemplating the feelings in the feelings... the mind in the mind... > mental states in mental states, but do not apply yourself to a train > of thought connected with mental states.' .... S: I can't check other translations now, but so far this sounds like the development of satipatthana. .... > > "He by allaying initial thought and discursive thought, with the mind > subjectively tranquilized and fixed on one point, enters on and abides > in the second meditation which is devoid of initial and discursive > thought, is born of concentration and is rapturous and joyful. ... S: This is referring of course to the attainment of the jhanas. As you say, here vitakka and vicara do not arise. As often discussed, not all who become enlightened have developed the mundane jhanas however. In the sutta, the Buddha addresses those who become arahats having attained the highest jhanas and thereby all abhinnas. Do we still agree here? Thx again for the sutta refs you provide in context - v.helpful. Metta, Sarah ======== #75100 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative sarahprocter... Dear Suan, I was also interested to read your comments! Thanks for keeping us on our toes here:-) Just a few further questions (and a few comments along the way), if I may: --- abhidhammika wrote: >.....K Sujin who has been > portrayed to be someone who is against formal practice of samatha > and vipassanaa. ... S: Getting back to basics, let's start with vipassanaa (as this we all agree is what leads to enlightenment and only taught by a Buddha). Can you give me any references in the texts (Suttanta, Vinaya, Abhidhamma OR ancient commentaries) which refer to a 'formal practice of vipassanaa' or anything close to this? ..... >A true follower of Theravada would never do such a > thing. ... S: Again, I'd be interested to stick to the texts and discuss what vipassanaa is and whether any 'formal practice of vipassanaa' is referred to. After we agree on this, then lets look at 'formal practice of samatha' in the texts as well. .... >As she is merely a lay householder, she is not a siilavanta > (a Buddhist nun) and cannot represent proper Theravada teachings. ... S: In suttas such as the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, didn't the Buddha refer to four kinds of disciples, i.e bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, lay-men and lay-women? And in the highest sense, don't the texts repeatedly remind us that the meaning of 'bhikkhu' or 'recluse' is that of the one following the path, developing satipatthana. From the comy to the Satipatthana Sutta, Larry quoted this before (#18382): >Further, when that highest kind of person, the bhikkhu, is reckoned, the rest too are reckoned, as in regard to a royal procession and the like, when the king is reckoned, by the reckoning of the king, the retinue is reckoned. Also the word "bhikkhu" was used by the Buddha to point out the bhikkhu-state through practice of the teaching in this way: "He who practices this practice of the Arousing of Mindfulness is called a bhikkhu." He who follows the teaching, be he a shining one [deva] or a human, is indeed called a bhikkhu. Accordingly it is said: "Well-dressed one may be, but if one is calm, Tamed, humble, pure, a man who does no harm To aught that lives, that one's a brahman true. An ascetic and mendicant too."< ***** Nina also quoted the following from the same text (#16769) >bhikkhugocaraa ete dhammaa, yadida.m kaayaanupassanaadayo. N: These dhammas are the field (object) of the bhikkhu, namely, contemplation of the Body, etc. tattha yasmaa kaayaanupassanaadipa.tipattiyaa bhikkhu hoti, tasmaa ``kaayaanupassii viharatii''tiaadinaa bhikkhu.m dasseti, bhikkhumhi ta.m niyamatoti aaha ``pa.tipattiyaa bhikkhubhaavadassanato''ti. N: Here, in as far as he is a bhikkhu by the practice of contemplation of the Body, etc., therefore, with the words, "he abides in contemplation of the body", etc., he shows him as a bhikkhu. Then, he says bhikkhu with this definition, saying, "because of the excellence of the bhikkhu state by way of practice". satthu cariyaanuvidhaayakattaa sakalasaasanasampa.tiggaahakattaa ca sabbappakaaraaya anusaasaniyaa bhaajanabhaavo. N: Since he follows the practice of the Teacher, and accepts the entire dispensation, he is fit to receive manifold instruction.< **** S: Recently, Nina also referred to the comy to MN39 (#75031): >N: The co. continues: what is recluseship? The ariyan eightfold Path. The benefit of being a recluse is the end of lobha, dosa and moha. Magga and phala, fruition, are are the benefits of recluseship. The Buddha describes the fulfilment of the life of the perfect recluse: it never is enough until he reaches arahatship.< **** S: So, can we agree that it is through the development of satipatthana, leading to the ariyan eightfold path that we represent the 'proper Theravada teachings'? When we pay respect to the Sangha in the highest sense, is it not to the developed wisdom of those who have followed the Buddha's Path? From the Abhidhamma perspective, that we both appreciate, in terms of paramattha dhammas, what are 'householder', 'bhikkhu' and sangha'? ... > Informal, partial, lay, householder practices of mindfulness cannot > save Gotama the Buddha's Theravada Saasanaa. ... S: Another topic which I'd be glad to discuss with you and read your references on (preferably with translations!) is: What exactly do the texts say is the cause of the decline of the Sasana? What exactly do they say is the cause of the continuation of the Theravada Saasanaa? .... > When I have spare time and energy, I will send some heavy Dhamma > guns and amunitions as re-enforcement. Patience is always desirable! ... S: Looking forward to it, Suan with patience! Many useful topics to discuss further arising from your comments. Perhaps you could start a new series with all those guns and amunitions! Metta, Sarah ========= #75101 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Ouch! Awfully strong words. Reminds me of something I would > write! ;-)). ... S: You said it ;-)) Seriously, good to read your helpful comments. ... >Would KS become a nun > if she could? Do others view her as a Buddhist nun who can't become > a nun? Does she view herself as a Buddhist nun who can't truly > become a nun? These are all interesting and relevant questions, I > believe. ... S: I've never heard her hint at the slightest regret at not being able to become a nun and she definitely doesn't view herself as one in any way and no one views her as one in any way either. She lives and enjoys a normal lay-life, spending time with family, watching TV, previously going on many trips, attending to her appearance etc as well as talking and assisting with Dhamma. As for representations of her - as Scott always emphasises, the Dhamma is the real teacher, but we all quote, paraphrase or recall comments we find helpful and her huge volume of lectures over the years have provided the source and reference for many, many books (inc. Nina's) and further talks. I'd encourage anyone to also listen and come to their own conclusions. As you know we've been editing many of the discussions in English and uploading them onto the web at www.dhammastudygroup.com ... <...> > Additionally, she believes that meditation isn't a necessary > component of the Noble Eightfold Path as there is the path of > the "Dry Insight Worker" who, she mistakenly believes, doesn't > practice any type of formal meditation. This is based on a faulty > reading/interpretation of the texts, as the Vipassanasukha does > achieve the first jhana (according to the Vism.). ... S: Just before you went away, I think you were discussing this point with Nina and maybe others of us. According to the texts, as I read them, the "dry-insight worker" (sukkha-vipassana) experiences nibbana with an intensity equivalent to first jhana. This is 'mainstream' Theravada teaching, not KS's mistaken belief. For example, in the Guide to #30,31 'Compendium of Consciousness' in 'Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' ed by B.Bodhi: "Those who develop insight without a basis of jhaana are called practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When they reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level corresponding to the first jhaana. "Those who develop insight on the basis of jhaana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhaana they had attained before reaching the path." ... S:There are also two meanings of jhana as given in the texts - one refers to mundane jhana and one refers to lokuttara jhana. It's a complicated area. Again, it's 'mainstream' Theravada. ... >.....participate yourself in DSG > and patiently point out the inconsistencies in interpretation of > Dhamma as you see them. ... S: Nicely put. Thx for encouraging friends with different interpretations. This is what we're all here to discuss. Have a good trip back to Taiwan. Lots of typhoons in the Hong Kong/Taiwan area which we're missing there but finding here:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #75102 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from America sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: I don't think that DSG is an adequate substitute for visiting > a Buddhist temple. It is important to be in close proximity with > those who follow the Dhamma. I'm not judging you and Jon, I am just > pointing this out for the benefit of other members. Those who live > in isolation from anyone who practices the Dhamma (a real, live > person) should do whatever possible to change that isolation. ... S: I agree that it's helpful to have live contact, whether at a Buddhist temple or elsewhere. Having a small, informal discussion group can be very encouraging and helpful too, I used to find. I think the internet medium is really fabulous as well though. We discovered how useful internet discussion groups can be when Jon had a tumour and we had very limited time. Easy to ask questions at any time (day or night) and just listen to the answers one finds helpful! .... > James: Sorry, nothing else to post about. Will post from the booklet > when I get back to Taiwan. ... S: Good! Metta, Sarah ========== #75103 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:00 am Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative jonoabb Hi Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Dear Jon, Howard, Nina, James, Ken H, Scott D, Mike N > > How are you? > > Jon asked: > > "I'm not familiar with the commentary term 'Sama.na Dhamma', and > would be grateful for a reference to it." > > There are too many references to 'Sama.na Dhamma' in the Nikaaya > Commentaries. Over 400, in fact! > > Here is one reference from Samyutta Nikaaya A.t.thakathaa. > > "ekapallanke nisinnassa sama.nadhamma.m karontassa > aggaphalappatti,.." > > Section 55, Mahaarukkhasuttava.n.naa, Nidaana Samyutta A.t.thakathaa. Many thanks for this. I see Scott has asked for a translation and your views on the meaning, and I look forward to seeing your reply. Jon #75104 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha as taught by the Buddha jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - ... > > To put my question another way, how does a person developing samatha > > know whether the resulting jhana will be the jhanas taught by the > > Buddha or ordinary jhanas? > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Plant grass seed, get grass. The way of assuring oneself is by > following the Buddha's practice teachings, not another's. > ------------------------------------------- If we take for example a kasina as object, what do you say is the development of samatha/jhana as taught by the Buddha? I am not aware of any specific mention of this in the suttas. > > So is it your understanding that the ordinary jhanas are bereft of > > the mental factors of passa, vedana, sanna, cetana, manasikara? To > > my understanding, these are all universal cetasikas, i.e., present in > > every citta. > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The ordinary absorptive jhanas are trances without possibility of > directing attention and otherwise exercising will. > ------------------------------------------------- Now I'm confused about the difference between the two. Is it the mental factors you mentioned in an earlier post that marks the difference between the 2 kinds of samatha/jhana, or is it the possibility of directing attention and exercising will (and if the latter, what is the passage in the Anupada Sutta that you rely on as showing this)? > > But in view of the assurance of enlightenment given at the end, the > > Satipatthana Sutta surely covers everything that is requisite. Or do > > you see it differently? > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, jhana arises with it as well, but that is not emphasized in the > sutta. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Not only is jhana not emphasized in the Satipatthana Sutta, it is not mentioned at all, except in the secion on anapanasati under mindfulenss of the body. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm afraid we are going around in circles. Your perspective is based > on the Khun Sujin analysis, whereas mine is based on my understanding of what I > read in the suttas, and we are very far apart. > ------------------------------------------------------ This is an odd comment! The idea that samatha taught by the Buddha differs from ordinary samatha was one I first heard propounded by you quite recently. Are you now suggesting that this view is the norm in the Buddhist world? In any event, I have been discussing solely on the basis of the suttas and commentaries, and am happy to continue doing so. Jon #75105 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - ... > > Do you have any specific examples from the suttas of subsets of the > > NEP factors in mind? > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > No. My understanding from the suttas is that none of the 8 is > expendable. > -------------------------------------- I think we have been talking at cross-purposes on this matter of subsets. We in fact both say that all 8 path factors are both requisite and sufficient. So perhaps we can leave it at that ;-)) (The one possible exception I mentioned is a 'technical' one. The path factor of samma sankappa (vitakka cetasika) does not arise with path consciousness where the second jhana or higher is the basis for enloightenment.) ... > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think you superimpose ideas from the commentaries and Abhidhamma to > the suttas. In the suttas, NEP consists of traits cultivated over a period of > time, not unlike the perfections. > ---------------------------------------- You seem to be implying that the idea of the NEP factors as traits to be cultivated (separately and individually, as I understand you), is something mentioned expressly in the suttas, and that the commentary and Abhidhamma interpretation is inconsistent with the suttas. I'd be interested to see any sutta passages you have in mind on this. Jon #75106 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha as taught by the Buddha upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/11/07 7:24:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Jon - > ... > >>To put my question another way, how does a person developing > samatha > >>know whether the resulting jhana will be the jhanas taught by the > >>Buddha or ordinary jhanas? > > > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Plant grass seed, get grass. The way of assuring oneself is > by > >following the Buddha's practice teachings, not another's. > >------------------------------------------- > > If we take for example a kasina as object, what do you say is the > development of samatha/jhana as taught by the Buddha? I am not aware > of any specific mention of this in the suttas. ----------------------------------------- Howard: As far as I know, there is very little discussion of kasinas in the suttas. -------------------------------------- > > >>So is it your understanding that the ordinary jhanas are bereft > of > >>the mental factors of passa, vedana, sanna, cetana, manasikara? > To > >>my understanding, these are all universal cetasikas, i.e., > present in > >>every citta. > > > >------------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > The ordinary absorptive jhanas are trances without > possibility of > >directing attention and otherwise exercising will. > >------------------------------------------------- > > Now I'm confused about the difference between the two. Is it the > mental factors you mentioned in an earlier post that marks the > difference between the 2 kinds of samatha/jhana, or is it the > possibility of directing attention and exercising will (and if the > latter, what is the passage in the Anupada Sutta that you rely on as > showing this)? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: In the Anupada Sutta there are mentioned volition, decision, and attention within jhanas. In MN 19, the Buddha mentioned that in the 4th jhana "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives, ... I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings, ... I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations." It is such willful directing of attention to which I refer. I'm not worrying about whether this is in terms of cetasikas or anything else. It seems clear to me. And also, there is NO indication of leaving the jhana to do this. -------------------------------------------------- > > >>But in view of the assurance of enlightenment given at the end, > the > >>Satipatthana Sutta surely covers everything that is requisite. > Or do > >>you see it differently? > > > >--------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Yes, jhana arises with it as well, but that is not > emphasized in the > >sutta. > >---------------------------------------------------------- > > Not only is jhana not emphasized in the Satipatthana Sutta, it is not > mentioned at all, except in the secion on anapanasati under > mindfulenss of the body. ------------------------------------------- Howard: So, is that a mention or not? ------------------------------------------ > > >------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I'm afraid we are going around in circles. Your perspective > is based > >on the Khun Sujin analysis, whereas mine is based on my > understanding of what I > >read in the suttas, and we are very far apart. > >------------------------------------------------------ > > This is an odd comment! The idea that samatha taught by the Buddha > differs from ordinary samatha was one I first heard propounded by you > quite recently. Are you now suggesting that this view is the norm in > the Buddhist world? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't think it is. I have seen it expressed only by two Theravadins - Sayadaw U Pandita and Bhikkhu Vimalaramsi, and by one Ch'an master, Venerable Sheng-Yen. But I see it as having a clear basis in the suttas, and that is how I view the matter. If you and others can adopt the extreme minority position of opposition to formal meditation, then I'm not so concerned about standing at short-stop position on this issue, which is not as far out as being in left field! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------------- > > In any event, I have been discussing solely on the basis of the > suttas and commentaries, and am happy to continue doing so. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: And I've been discussing solely on the basis of the suttas, and I am happy to continue doing so. LOLOL! ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================= With metta, Howard #75107 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/11/07 7:48:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Jon - > ... > >>Do you have any specific examples from the suttas of subsets of > the > >>NEP factors in mind? > > > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No. My understanding from the suttas is that none of the 8 > is > >expendable. > >-------------------------------------- > > I think we have been talking at cross-purposes on this matter of > subsets. We in fact both say that all 8 path factors are both > requisite and sufficient. So perhaps we can leave it at that ;-)) ---------------------------------------- Howard: Sounds good. :-) ---------------------------------------- > > (The one possible exception I mentioned is a 'technical' one. The > path factor of samma sankappa (vitakka cetasika) does not arise with > path consciousness where the second jhana or higher is the basis for > enloightenment.) > > ... > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I think you superimpose ideas from the commentaries and > Abhidhamma to > >the suttas. In the suttas, NEP consists of traits cultivated over a > period of > >time, not unlike the perfections. > >---------------------------------------- > > You seem to be implying that the idea of the NEP factors as traits to > be cultivated (separately and individually, as I understand you), is > something mentioned expressly in the suttas, and that the commentary > and Abhidhamma interpretation is inconsistent with the suttas. I'd > be interested to see any sutta passages you have in mind on this. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'll give one example, which shows that right speech and its cultivation is a very conventional matter pertaining to ordinary, daily activities: _______________ "And how is one made pure in four ways by verbal action? "There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world. "Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord."Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large. "Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal. "This is how one is made pure in four ways by verbal action."— AN 10.176 -------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================= With metta, Howard P.S. During a moment of path consciousness, there is neither right speech nor wrong speech nor refraining with regard to either; there is no speech at all or anything pertaining to speech. The moment is utterly lokuttara. #75108 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:14 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn dear friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 14 txt: "Ekanavutito kappe, vipassii naama naayako; uppajji caarudassano, sabbadhammesu cakkhumaa. "Se.t.thidhiitaa tadaa hutvaa,Lea baaraa.nasipuruttame; nimantetvaana sambuddha.m, sasa"ngha.m lokanaayaka.m. "Mahaadaana.m daditvaana, uppalehi vinaayaka.m; puujayitvaa cetasaava, va.n.nasobha.m apatthayi.m. "Imamhi bhaddake kappe, brahmabandhu mahaayaso; kassapo naama gottena, uppajji vadata.m varo. "Upa.t.thaako mahesissa, tadaa aasi narissaro; kaasiraajaa kikii naama, baaraa.nasipuruttame. Pruitt: Ninety-one aeons ago, there was a leader named Vipassii who was born, pleasant to behold, clearly seeing all phenomena. At that time, I was the daughter of a merchant in the magnificent town of Baaraa.nasii. I invited the Fully Awakened One, the Leader of the World, together with the Order. I gave a great offering, honoured the Leader with lotuses, and in my mind I asked for a beautiful complexion. In this auspicious aeon, the Brahmaa Kinsman of Great Fame, Kassapa by name, the Best of Speakers, was born. At that time, the Great Sage's servant was the ruler named Kikii, who was the king of Kaasi in the great city Baraa.nasii. "Tassaasi.m dutiyaa dhiitaa, sama.naguttasavhayaa; dhamma.m sutvaa jinaggassa, pabbajja.m samarocayi.m. "Anujaani na no taato, agaareva tadaa maya.m; viisavassasahassaani, vicarimha atanditaa. "Komaaribrahmacariya.m, raajaka~n~naa sukhedhitaa; buddhopa.t.thaananirataa, muditaa sattadhiitaro. "Sama.nii sama.naguttaa ca, bhikkhunii bhikkhudaayikaa; dhammaa ceva sudhammaa ca, sattamii sa"nghadaayikaa. "Aha.m khemaa ca sappa~n~naa, pa.taacaaraa ca ku.n.dalaa; kisaagotamii dhammadinnaa, visaakhaa hoti sattamii. I was his second daughter, Saua.naguttaa by name, of great fame. Having heard the Doctrine of the Best of Conquerors, I had a strong inclination to go forth. At that time, our father did not give us permission [to go forth], [so] we seven daughters grew up in comfort as princesses, and unwearying we followed the holy life as virgins for twenty thousand years in our home, delighting in the service of the Buddha with appreciative joy. We were Samani, Sama.naguttaa, Bhikkhunii, Bhikkhudaayikaa, Dhammaa, Sudhammaa, and, the seventh, Sa"nghadaayikaa. [In the present age we are] me [Uppalava.n.naa], Khemaa, Pa.taacaaraa the wise, Ku.n.dalaa, Kisaa-Gotamii, Dhammadinnaa, and, the seventh is Visaakhaa. "Tehi kammehi sukatehi, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Tato cutaa manussesu, upapannaa mahaakule; piita.m ma.t.tha.m vara.m dussa.m, ada.m arahato aha.m. "Tato cutaari.t.thapure, jaataa vippakule aha.m; dhiitaa tiri.tivacchassa, ummaadantii manoharaa. "Tato cutaa janapade, kule a~n~natare aha.m; pasuutaa naatiphiitamhi, saali.m gopemaha.m tadaa. "Disvaa paccekasambuddha.m, pa~ncalaajasataaniha.m; datvaa padumacchannaani, pa~nca puttasataaniha.m. "Patthayi.m tepi patthesu.m, madhu.m datvaa sayambhuno; tato cutaa ara~n~neha.m, ajaayi.m padumodare. As a result of those virtuous deeds and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Tavati.msa realm. After I died there, I was reborn among men in an important family. I gave an excellent, burnished yellow cloth to an Arahat. After I died there, I was born in the town of Aari.t.tha in a brahman family. I was the delightful daughter of Titi.tivaccha named Ummaadantii. After I died there, I was born in the country in a certain family that was not well off, and I guarded the rice field ther. I saw a Pacceka Buddha and gave him 500 [grains of] puffed rice covered with a lotus. I requested 500 sons. And they [the future sons] made an aspiration and gave honey to a Self-Dependent One. When I died there, I was born in a forest inside a lotus. ===tbc, connie. #75109 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:16 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Andrew: Thanks for your reply and sorry for the delay in replying - I'm trying to get the house back in order after hauling all the wet camping stuff back in. Andrew: "There is a lot of shattering going on in this thread. Maybe we should adjourn to a Greek cafe and start throwing plates??" Scott: Opa! A: "...Seriously, I was shattered by anusaya. Why, I don't know. We're all brought up with the homespun wisdom that we are all "creatures of habit" - but I don't think we ever truly get it (and certainly not in an anatta sense)." Scott: No, I agree. We all think that we learn our habits and can use will-power to change them. One thing I notice is that, although things do change for a person who works through a lot of stuff in a thorough and well-conducted psychotherapy, that person remains essentially 'the same' in terms of temperament and personality style. I'd be interested to get your take on the role of anusaya in this regard. My older daughter has a cat who I'd swear retains many bird-like qualities causing me to idly speculate about the amount of time spent in avian forms - he's real owly. A: "I once read about a neuroscience experiment years ago at the Uni of Pennsylvania (?). The scientists had decided that they at last had the technology to determine the point at which a conscious decision is made. To their surprise, they found that the body was preparing to carry out an action *before* their equipment registered the making of a "conscious choice". The idea that there is no controlling "me" "shaping my destiny", that the process is driven by conditions and tendencies outside of "my" awareness (alot of them "hideous") was quite a jolt!" Scott: Yeah, I can't recall the reference either but I do recall the study. The psychoanalysts have appropriated this finding to support the concept of unconscious mental dynamics, which I think is a fair claim, given that level of discourse. A: "The example I gave before of poor language skills meaning I had to take dictionary pauses and this allowing me to reflect is an example of the Buddha's advice to Rahula (that Phil often quotes) that you should reflect before you do things. Great advice to be followed, but I feel that it has to be read in a conditionality context and the conditions for it don't often arise, do they? [the same point is made against utilitarian ethics theories that require a "weighing up" of stakeholder interests before a reasoned choice is made - humans, it is argued, just don't behave in that way as a rule]." Scott: A good point regarding conditions. I know they haven't arisen for reflection once the thing is done and then, at least, I can close the barn door after the horses are out. At least sometimes they can arise after the fact, and then one is prone to cling to all sorts of other things like guilt, etc. Would you say it in this way: If there is reflection and pause now then the conditions must be in place? I can see how this might be tricky since one has to know whether what is arising is truly the dhamma one thinks it is, and not just some deeply rationalised thing. Me: "When satipa.t.thaana arises its object is known, not for its place in the psyche, not for its 'meaning' in the broader tapestry of a self with history, but only for its inherent characteristics." Andrew: I wonder if this is too simplistic? Do the inherent characteristics include the hetu, the relational aspects, the anusayas etc. In asking this, I recognise that, as soon as you start weaving this web, it is very easy to come to a conclusion that "I am the sum of all this fluctuating process" i.e. atta view via the back door." Scott: This is true. All the other factors - its so complex - must be in the works all the time, right? Yeah, I think the above was meant really to point out that satipa.t.thaana is not simply equivalent (not equivalent at all, actually) to free association or mundane introspection or to any sort of navel-gazing. The statement was sparse for that reason, I think. You're quite right to bring in all the complexity. Although many of the same things I do in my work introspection-wise seem to be satipa.t.thaana-like - noticing feelings, thoughts, fantasies, and the like - it is not satipa.t.thaana since I have the feeling that I am directing it. To me, this sense - I am directing this process - is the hallmark of something that is not satipa.t.thaana. I guess this feed back into that ongoing dialogue regarding formal practise. And as for 'I am the sum of all this fluctuating process', it is so easy to get caught in this, isn't it? Thanks for the discussion, Andrew. Sincerely, Scott. #75110 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah, - I have observed (and appreciated) how you discuss the Dhamma without getting involved as if "there is discussion but there is no one discussing". But to me there is always someone discussing the Dhamma with me (not just the pixels and light visible on the computer screen), but the important thing is that I have no atta-ditthi in that moment. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Thx for your further clarifications on samaadhi... > ... ... > T: You're right about the terminology problem we may have here. To be 'marked by the first jhaana' is my own wording. What I mean to say is: it is the beginning of samaadhi that has both vitakka & vicara. S: I thought we were discussing the samma samaadhi of the noble eightfold path at the time of enlightenment. As you say, vitakka (samma sankappa in the NEP) and vicara are present, unless higher jhanas were attained and were the 'basis' for the subsequently arising NEP. T: Yes, I was aware of the samma samaadhi all the time. Please review DN 22 on samma samaadhi and you will recall that it is the same issue as the four rupa-jhaanas. Read further and you'll see why. > T: For example, MN 125 (Dantabhumi Sutta) states as follows. "The Tathagata then disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, fare along contemplating the body in the body, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with the body; fare along contemplating the feelings in the feelings... the mind in the mind... mental states in mental states, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with mental states.' .... S: I can't check other translations now, but so far this sounds like the development of satipatthana. T: Of course it is the development of satipatthana that involves vitakka & vicara which are the supporting factors of the first jhaana. > "He by allaying initial thought and discursive thought, with the mind subjectively tranquilized and fixed on one point, enters on and abides in the second meditation which is devoid of initial and discursive thought, is born of concentration and is rapturous and joyful. > ... S: This is referring of course to the attainment of the jhanas. As you say, here vitakka and vicara do not arise. T: Right. Vitakka and vicara subside as the first jhaana (conditioned by the satipatthana bhavana) is replaced by the second jhaana. So this is a proof that developing samma-sati supports samma-samaadhi as stated in MN 117. It is the same as saying "satipatthana is samaadhinimitta" in the other sutta (MN 44). .............. S: As often discussed, not all who become enlightened have developed the mundane jhanas however. In the sutta, the Buddha addresses those who become arahats having attained the highest jhanas and thereby all abhinnas. Do we still agree here? T: Yes, mostly so except the word "mundane". In the past (three years ago) I would disagree and insist that the jhaanas through samatha bhavana must be developed first. However, I still believe in the only kind of jhaanas called samma-samaadhi as defined in the suttas, no mundane or lokuttara categorization. S: Thx again for the sutta refs you provide in context - v.helpful. T: But my view (or interpretation) is not, right? I will continue to discuss the Dhamma only when the person(or persons) on the other side says "very helpful". Otherwise, why continue? Similarly, why discuss the Dhamma when "there is no one discussing" ! Tep === #75111 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking and General Deportment of the Body scottduncan2 Dear Mike, Thanks for the reply. I'm a bit all over the place. The holiday has gone on long enough for me to be forgetting what the date is, what the day of the week is, not to mention that I have a whole day of cleaning house ahead of me... Me: "This is quite clear, clarifying elegantly the lack of necessity for attempting to perform a 'walking meditation' since ordinary, everyday walking is exactly the same and clear comprehension is not subject to being forced to arise." Mike: "...it seems to me that clear comprehension could be said to be 'forced to arise' when the conditions for its arising are present--just no 'forcer' and of course only moment (kha.na) by moment." Scott: I was just starting to discuss this aspect of conditionality with Andrew. Yes, it is not 'I' who forces or makes clear comprehension - or anything - happen, rather, if it is happening, it is due to conditions. And 'conditions' doesn't mean 'me' either, although, again, the trap is to think it does - 'think' in a very subtle or deep way I'm guessing. This also reminds me of the ongoing discussion I'm having with Tep, where we are looking at this question of who does things, or to whom do things occur. In a way this gets to the whole question of what Dhamma is or is not. The Dhamma, it seems to me, is not merely a theory which offers an alternative to other theories of human behaviour or the workings of the psyche. If it were then who cares? The Dhamma shatters all other systems of explanations. The Dhamma is, to me, essentially incomparable. I've ranted about this before: The Dhamma is not science, not psychology and is hermetically in and of itself a stand-alone, all-encompassing Truth. I personally don't look to other doctrines to seek points of comparison. I don't prefer to come up with opinions or theories about how apples and oranges are alike (other than they're both fruit, right?) Ah, well, I've gone off again... Thanks, Mike. Sincerely, Scott. #75112 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:05 am Subject: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contempla scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply: N: "this is very interesting. I read in the Co (I believe that one on the eggs that should be well hatched) that some could attain arahatship 'in one session'." Scott: I'm not at all sure of my amateurish attempt at translation but the small passage does seem to refer to this. Just a thought though, if it does: I'm reminded of the man who attained arahatship 'in one session' after the Buddha gave him a piece of cloth to rub. The fact that the Path can arise while one's legs are crossed while sitting or while rubbing a cloth in no wise, to me, suggests then that sitting with legs crossed or rubbing cloths should be turned into deliberate modes of practise. How would you translate the phrase supplied by Suan? Sincerely, Scott. #75113 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samayutta Nikayas/Abhidhamma?Khun Sujin/Nina VanGorkom nilovg Dear Steve, Op 10-aug-2007, om 20:38 heeft sjackson07513 het volgende geschreven: > Thank you very much for this response which is a kind of > green light, so to speak, to practice in the way I felt inclined > fairly early on. I had had the chance to speak to Bhikkhu Bodhi > about practcing the satipattha sutta without reference to a > particulat method, per se, such as the Mahasi, but gradually, > especially with refernce to the six sense bases, in the context of my > life. I will continue to study, esp. the Samayutta Nikaya, some > Abhidhamma, and of course, the Satipattha Sutta itself. -------- N: Sarah and Jon know Bhikkhu Bodhi and Sarah had a very good correspondance with him. could you mention what he adviced? Would you share with us what you read in the Samyutta Nikaya and what Abhidhamma you absorb, because it is useful for us too. I hope you often write, when you can find time. I write about reminders from Kh Sujin because I need them myself. She says that if the study does not lead us to considering the present moment it is not of much use. We read about seeing and visible object, but they appear right now. Then it is the time to study them. It is the same with regard to the Abhidhamma: it relates to the present moment. What we call a person are citta, cetasika and rupa, arising and falling away now. She also emphasizes very much that all the teachings point to detachment. We have to remember this from the beginning. I have known her for more than forty years and when I lived in Thailand I went around with her to different temples where she lectured. She said: do not have any expectations. When we are expecting or hoping, it is attachment. Hoping for results, thinking that we can achieve something, hoping to attain enlightenment soon, or hastening the development of pa~n~naa, it is attachment, the second noble Truth. Also in relationships with others she said: do not expect anything. Do not expect people to be nice and friendly or appreciative. Whatever hapopens, it all depends on conditions and it is beyond control. Nina. #75114 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:26 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 1, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the same sutta about the wonderful and marvellous qualities of the Buddha concerning the moments just after his birth: Face to face with the Lord, revered sir, have I heard, face to face have I learnt: “The moment, Ånanda, the Bodhisatta has come to birth, standing on even feet and facing north, he takes seven strides, and while a white sunshade is being held over him, he scans all the quarters and utters as with the voice of a bull: ‘I am chief in the world, I am best in the world, I am eldest in the world. This is the last birth, there is not now again-becoming’...” The Bodhisatta was leading a life full of sense-pleasures, but after he saw an old man, a sick man and a corpse he realized the futility of such a life. When he saw a recluse, wearing a yellow robe, he decided to go forth and become a monk in order to seek the truth. He took instructions first from Ålåra Kålåma who could attain arúpa- jhåna (immaterial absorption) as far as the “plane of nothingness”, but he found that this did not lead to enlightenment. He then took instructions from Uddaka who could attain the highest stage of arúpa- jhåna, the “plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception”, but he found that this did not lead to enlightenment either. The Bodhisatta decided to search for the truth alone, and he practised rigid austerities. He ate so little that he became like a skeleton. He found that this was not the way to enlightenment either. On the full- moon day of Visåkha (May) he accepted boiled rice and sour milk from Sujåtå, near Uruvela. He threw the bowl upstream into the river Nerañjarå and he knew that on that day he would attain enlightenment. We walked along the river Nerañjarå and saw statues which represent the scene of Sujåtå giving the rice and sour milk to the Bodhisatta. In the evening of that same day the Bodhisatta walked to the Bodhi- tree and sat down under it. We read in the “Middle Length Sayings” (I, 4, “Discourse on Fear and Dread”) that the Buddha related to the brahman Jåùussoni how he spent the three watches of the night during which he attained enlightenment. In the first watch he recollected his former lives, in the second watch he directed the mind to the passing away and rebirth of beings. In the third watch he realized the four noble Truths. ************ Nina. #75115 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:25 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 10, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, In the sense-door process the javana-cittas follow upon the determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) and in the mind-door process upon the mind-door adverting-consciousness (mano-dvåråvajjana- citta). The javana-cittas experience the same object as the preceding cittas in the process, they “run through” the object [1], but, except in the case of the arahat, they experience it in a wholesome way or in an unwholesome way. Whether the javana-cittas are kusala cittas or akusala cittas depends on natural decisive support-condition which includes one’s accumulated inclinations, and also on root-condition and on several other conditions. When we experience a pleasant object through one of the senses, there may be wise attention or unwise attention to the object. We have accumulated a great deal of attachment and therefore lobha-múla-cittas tend to arise on account of a pleasant object. When the first javana-citta is lobha-múla-citta without wrong view and accompanied by pleasant feeling [2], the succeeding javana-citta which is conditioned by the preceding one by way of repetition-condition, is of the same type and so it is with the following ones. During these moments we accumulate more lobha. When the first javana-citta is kusala citta with paññå, the following javana-cittas are of the same type. During these moments pannñå is accumulated. As we have seen (in Ch 4), each citta conditions the succeeding citta by way of proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya, and by way of contiguity-condition, samanantara-paccaya. Moreover, a preceding citta can condition a succeeding citta by way of decisive support of proximity, anantårupanissaya-paccaya (see Ch 7). Javana-citta, besides being a condition for the next one by way of repetition, is also a condition for the next one by way of proximity, contiguity and decisive support of proximity. Realities can be related to each other by way of several conditions. Repetition-condition only pertains to javana-cittas. The last javana-citta in a process does not condition the next one by way of repetition-condition, because it is succeeded by a citta of a different jåti [3]. The cittas which are repetition- condition have to be of the same jåti. Thus, if the first javana- citta is akusala, the following ones are also akusala, and if the first javana-citta is kusala, the following ones are also kusala. The javana-cittas which are repetition-condition are the following: akusala cittas, mahå-kusala cittas (of the sense-sphere), mahå- kiriyacittas (of the arahat), the smile-producing citta of the arahat (ahetuka kiriyacitta), the rúpåvacara kusala cittas and kiriyacittas (rúpa-jhånacittas) and the arúpåvacara kusala cittas and kiriyacittas (arúpa-jhånacittas). The performing of akusala kamma or kusala kamma occurs during the moments of javana and these can produce results later on. Moreover, during the moments of javana unwholesome or wholesome tendencies are being accumulated. Thus, the moments of javana condition our life in the future. ----------- 1. Javana can be translated as “running”, impulse. 2. There are eight types of lobha-múla-citta. 3. It may be succeeded by tadårammana-citta, registering- consciousness, which is vipåkacitta produced by kamma and which still experiences the same object. Or it may be followed by bhavanga-citta. ******* Nina. #75116 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contempla nilovg Dear Scott, Op 11-aug-2007, om 16:05 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: "ekapallanke nisinnassa sama.nadhamma.m karontassa aggaphalappatti,.." Section 55, Mahaarukkhasuttava.n.naa, Nidaana Samyutta A.t.thakathaa." Scott: Here's my attempt at translation. Please correct and elucidate if you would: "A certain recluse, sitting cross-legged, and thus seated forms the highest result of attainment, the most excellent fruit..." N: aggaphalappatti: agga is topmost, the attainment of the topmost fruit: that points to arahatship. ------------ > Scott: I'm not at all sure of my amateurish attempt at translation but > the small passage does seem to refer to this. Just a thought though, > if it does: I'm reminded of the man who attained arahatship 'in one > session' after the Buddha gave him a piece of cloth to rub. > Nina; For the person who practises the dhamma of the recluse, sama.nadhamma, and sits crosslegged, there is the attainment of the highest fruit. > > S: The fact that the Path can arise while one's legs are crossed while > sitting or while rubbing a cloth in no wise, to me, suggests then that > sitting with legs crossed or rubbing cloths should be turned into > deliberate modes of practise. -------- N: In the Buddha's time there were arahats, also arahats with the four discriminations, patisambhidas, how could one imitate them today? And attaining in one session, does that mean that we today should do the same? Lots of question marks. Deliberate modes of practice: one should ask oneself: is there any attachment to special attainments? Are there certain expectations? Are we tricked by tanhaa? It is useful to discuss detachment often. Nina. #75117 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:06 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nilovg Dear Scott and Andrew, I read your dialogue with interest. Op 11-aug-2007, om 15:16 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Although many of the same things I do in my work introspection-wise > seem to be satipa.t.thaana-like - noticing feelings, thoughts, > fantasies, and the like - it is not satipa.t.thaana since I have the > feeling that I am directing it. To me, this sense - I am directing > this process - is the hallmark of something that is not > satipa.t.thaana. I guess this feed back into that ongoing dialogue > regarding formal practise. ------- N: These words are important, I think. Noticing feelings, etc. People 'know what is going on inside', but this is not vipassana. I think of Kh Sujin's many reminders to bring us to reality now: who is noticing? who knows what is going on inside him? And yes, formal practice: who is doing this? People may answer: not a self, but one has to be very truthful. Reminders help us to be sincere. At first we may think that we know already, and then we can find out that this is not so, which shows that pa~n~naa is developing. We learn that feeling etc. are conditioned nama, and at first we know only in theory. But they have to be known as just dhamma, and this needs detachment. I find it useful to have more conversations about this subject. Nina. #75118 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:15 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "I can see a 'coming together', or a 'whole', that is due to clinging(upadana) as an illusion (wrong view, e.g. seeing the five aggregates of clinging as 'mine, I, my self'.). So I agree that illusory (mind)objects are 'created out of the misunderstanding of continuity and thinking about this'. Thus no (mental) illusion results if there is pa~n~na that overcomes clinging, but the five senses still detect presence of a person. If the monks and the Buddha were illusory, then there would be no Teachings and hearing of the Dhamma. (I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks replied.)But a rainbow (also a flame, a finger,..) is a coming together of physical conditions, e.g. in the rainbow case, water vapors in the air, sunlight, air temperature, and position of the viewer that has nothing to do with perception." Scott: The five senses don't detect 'presence of a person' if one goes by a precise Abhidhamma-informed and strictly theoretical (for now) understanding. As you know, I take this level of explanation to reflect reality as it is deeply and always. Since this reality is the bedrock, anything else one thinks one detects in the absence of well-developed pa~n~naa, is not what it seems. The five senses must be expanded to six, given that mind-door process significantly contributes to the genesis of illusion. And then it must be remembered that each of the six doors experiences objects one at a time. This fact alone, when considered, ought to be enough to dispel any notion of monks, etc. I think that one needs to give serious consideration as to what 'monks' or 'the Buddha' mean. This consideration, it seems to me, boils down to knowing what ruupa is. You are thinking of the Buddha and the monks, I imagine, in the way you are thinking of anyone you might see in a day. The Buddha's final existence was in the human realm, hence, it included the kamma-conditioned ruupa which we think of as his body - which allows us to imagine the features of his body (as these have been described, for one thing, and since we also have a body, being in the same realm). When you speak of monks or the Buddha, as above, you are, in my opinion, only speaking of (past) ruupa, which arose and ceased (albeit seventeen times slower than (past) naama). Ruupa is the dhamma that doesn't experience anything. There can be no question of monks or the Buddha when one really thinks about it. This isn't to deny anything. We still have the Dhamma as it has come down to us. Here, in Visuddhimagga (XI Note 38, p. 798), is what I think is a way of considering 'monks' and 'the Buddha' (or 'me' or 'you' for that matter). You'll see it all boils down to elements and conditions: "'A great primary (mahaabhuuta) is a great wonder (mahanto abbhuto) because it shows various unreal things (abhuuta), various wonders (abhuuta), and various marvels (acchariya). Or alternatively: there are great wonders (abhuuta) here, thus there are magicians. And spirits, etc., are huge (mahant) creatures (bhuuta) owing to being born from them, thus they are great primaries. Or alternatively: this term 'great primary' can be regarded as a generic term for all of them. But earth element, etc., are great primaries because they deceive, and because, like the huge creatures, their standing place cannot be pointed to. The deception lies in causing the apparent individual essences of blue-black, etc., and it lies in causing the appearance of what has the aspect of woman and man, and so on. Likewise, there undemonstrability, since they are not found inside or outside each other though they rely upon each other for support. For if these elements were found inside each other, they would not each perform perform their particular functions, owing to mutual frustration. And if they were found outside each other, they would be already resolved (separate), and that being so, any description of them as unresolved (inseparable) would be meaningless. So although their standing place is undemonstrable, still each one assists the other by its particular function - the functions of establishing, etc., whereby each becomes condition for the others as conascence condition and so on' (Pm. 363)." T: "How do you see "saddhaa" as a part of the problem?" Scott: Sorry, I was unclear. I don't see saddhaa as a problem. I was suggesting that saddhaa might serve to allow the undeveloped dhammas scope for development. By knowing the Dhamma intellectually and theoretically, before pa~n~naa develops and realises it, saddhaa can support patience and the like. T: "...In another discussion with Sarah I talked about 'anatta-sa~n~na' in an arahant that was responsible for seeing no 'I' (due to mana -- conceit). But it doesn't mean that the arahants were invisible to each other and to other humans." Scott: Yeah, I'm following the discussion with Sarah. I find it very hard to put into words why this doesn't bother me as it seems to bother you. I think this used to exasperate Herman as well. I guess I just don't see it as you do. I know I can see, touch, smell, listen to, talk to, write to, and a multitude of other things to 'other humans' but I just know that all this is going on from moment to moment and the rest is the illusion. Of course 'arahants' weren't invisible to each other and to other humans.' Of course the Buddha arose and taught and ceased. I just don't think in terms of people when I think of all this. Maybe I'll be able to put this into words at another time. Sincerely, Scott. #75119 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:21 am Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative abhidhammika Dear Scott D, Nina, Jon, Sarah, Howard, Rob K, Mike N, Ken H, James How are you? This is only a brief reply to tell you that I will translate the Pali passage, and post it together with the context. Being a lay householder myself prevents me doing this as promptly as I would wish. I have busy weekdays and weekends. This my own situation convinces me that the lifestyle of a lay householder is not as efficient as that of a sama.na in following the Noble EIGHTFOLD Path, the Right Speech being one component of the Middle Way, such as translating Pali texts and passages! And, Sarah, I will also reply to you with relevant Pali references regarding formal practices – with even further delay. This makes me a very informal replier, being a lay householder resulting in inefficient practices.:-) With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: Dear Suan, I hope you are well. Thanks for the reference: Suan: "There are too many references to 'Sama.na Dhamma' in the Nikaaya Commentaries. Over 400, in fact! Here is one reference from Samyutta Nikaaya A.t.thakathaa. "ekapallanke nisinnassa sama.nadhamma.m karontassa aggaphalappatti,.." Section 55, Mahaarukkhasuttava.n.naa, Nidaana Samyutta A.t.thakathaa." Scott: Here's my attempt at translation. Please correct and elucidate if you would: "A certain recluse, sitting cross-legged, and thus seated forms the highest result of attainment, the most excellent fruit..." Scott: I'd hazard a guess that the sama.nadhamma refers to the arising of the path at the level of the arahant. What is the context of this reference? Sincerely, Scott. #75120 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:25 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon (& Howard), > I think you are referring in particlur to the simile of the royal > frontier fortress at the end of the sutta, and the mention there of > the pair of swift messengers representing samatha and vipassana. > > I do not find this simile an easy one to understand, even with the > detailed explanation of who or what represents who or what. > Perhaps you could say a few words about it. Thanks. Since insight and samatha must come in a pair, this means that mere insight alone would not lead to nibbana. > I notice there are four pairs of messengers in all. Would they > represent the 4 stages of enlightenment, do you think? My opinion is that they represent the four frames of reference. In MN 118, the Buddha explained how the four frames of reference are developed & pursused so as to bring the seven factors of awakening to their culmination. There, he described the development of the seven factors of awakening in the context of each of the four frames of reference. I think there is another somewhat related post of mine to which you replied in message 75068. The Buddha groups the seven factors of awakening into 3 groups. Group 1 - Mindfulness. Group 2 - Investigation, Persistence, Rapture Group 3 - Serenity, Concentration, Equanimity This is from SN 56.53 as cited in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/ part2.html#part2-g The Buddha said development of mindfulness is beneficial all the time, but the development of Group 2 should be carried out when the mind is sluggish, and the development of Group 3 should be carried out when the mind is restless. It is in my (modified) opinion that when the Buddha said in DN 22: > "Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he > lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives > contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. He refers to the development of the factor of mindfulness. > He lives contemplating origination-things in the body, or he lives > contemplating dissolution-things in the body, or he lives > contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things in the body. He refers to the development of the factors of investigation, persistence and rapture. > Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body > exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, > and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. He refers to the development of the factors of serenity, concentration and equanimity. It is also in my opinion that Group 2 is collectively known as INSIGHT and Group 3 is collectively known as SAMATHA in the Kimsuka Sutta (and perhaps many others as well). I think you were asking Howard in another post why jhanas are not mentioned in DN 22. My opinion is that jhanas are actually mentioned indirectly by way of 'Paragraph 3' (of DN 22) quoted above: > Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body > exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, > and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. This, I think describes the development of serenity, concentration and equanimity. The Buddha never actually left out the seven factors of enlightenment (and neither 'Buddhist' jhanas) in DN 22. If you could "read in between the lines", you would see how perfectly formulated (I would say perfectly and mathematically formulated) this Dhamma actually is. I think you were also asking Howard if the concentration of the seven factors of awakening and the concentration of the NEP are actually the same concentration. My answer would be a resounding YES. From SN 56.52 cited in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/ part2.html#part2-g the Buddha said that: [6] Any concentration accompanied by directed thought & evaluation is concentration as a factor for Awakening. And any concentration unaccompanied by directed thought & evaluation is also concentration as a factor for Awakening. Thus this forms the definition of 'concentration as a factor for Awakening,' and it is in this manner that it is two. In short, the four Buddhist jhanas form the basis of concentration in the seven factors of awakening as well as the NEP. Swee Boon #75121 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Sarah, > Conversely the nimitta or concepts experienced by jhana cittas are > concepts experienced by way of unclassifiable objects, similarly > representing concepts of other objects. In fact all concepts can be > classified in this way. So we have both paramattha dhammas and > concepts classified by way of unclassifiable objects;-)." This is mind boggling. When experiencing an unclassifiable object, how does one know that it is of a paramattha dhamma or of a concept? Does it come with a mental marker or label? If it is not possible to know, of what good is the distinction between a paramattha dhamma and a concept? Swee Boon #75122 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi, Scott (also, Sarah) - Thank you for your well-written message #75118. Here is a list of things you wrote. I also give some comments. 1. The five senses don't detect 'presence of a person' if one goes by a precise Abhidhamma-informed and strictly theoretical (for now) understanding. ... And then it must be remembered that each of the six doors experiences objects one at a time. This fact alone, when considered, ought to be enough to dispel any notion of monks, etc. T: Of course, that view/perspective is strictly theoretical, because it is purely about khandhas, ayatanas, and dhatus that are empty of owners. But when you are back to the real world (like "back from the future", the movie) it is a different story. 2. You are thinking of the Buddha and the monks, I imagine, in the way you are thinking of anyone you might see in a day. T: Right, conventionally speaking that is based on the real world perspective. But that perspective is not the only one that I have. 3. Here, in Visuddhimagga (XI Note 38, p. 798), is what I think is a way of considering 'monks' and 'the Buddha' (or 'me' or 'you' for that matter). You'll see it all boils down to elements and conditions. T: Now you are using the abhidhamma-dhamma perspective again. Of course, I have no doubt about dhatus and paccayas. Both views -- the me-and-you view versus the paramattha view -- are perfectly alright without contradiction or denial, as long as we know what we are talking about (i.e. not confusing one view with the other). 4. I was suggesting that saddhaa might serve to allow the undeveloped dhammas scope for development. By knowing the Dhamma intellectually and theoretically, before pa~n~naa develops and realises it, saddhaa can support patience and the like. T: Definitely, Scott. You are right to say that intellectual knowledge and theoretical knowledge (from reading books and listening) are valuable for mental development. I also would add experiential knowledges as well. ........... >T: "...In another discussion with Sarah I talked about 'anatta- sa~n~na' in an arahant that was responsible for seeing no 'I'(due to mana -- conceit). But it doesn't mean that the arahants were invisible to each other and to other humans." Scott: Yeah, I'm following the discussion with Sarah. I find it very hard to put into words why this doesn't bother me as it seems to bother you. I think this used to exasperate Herman as well. I guess I just don't see it as you do. I know I can see, touch, smell, listen to, talk to, write to, and a multitude of other things to 'other humans' but I just know that all this is going on from moment to moment and the rest is the illusion. Of course 'arahants' weren't invisible to each other and to other humans.' Of course the Buddha arose and taught and ceased. I just don't think in terms of people when I think of all this. Maybe I'll be able to put this into words at another time. T: The above comment is interesting. Thank you for talking to me using the conventional language of the real world. Why did you think the discussion with Sarah exasperated me? I wonder if Sarah feels the same as you do. It is close to impossible to see two persons think/see same things the same way all the time. The reason I discuss the various dhammas or dhamma-related issues here is not to seek approval, but rather to have an apportunity to let go of wrong views and improve my understanding of the Teachings (including the Abhidhamma). I believe, like you have pointed out, right choice of words is (always) an issue. Anyway there is no good reason for any dhamma discusser to be bothered by views that are different from his/her own. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for the reply: > > T: "I can see a 'coming together', or a 'whole', that is due to > clinging(upadana) as an illusion (wrong view, e.g. seeing the five > aggregates of clinging as 'mine, I, my self'.). So I agree that #75123 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:43 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the carefully thought out reply: T: "Of course, that view/perspective is strictly theoretical, because it is purely about khandhas, ayatanas, and dhatus that are empty of owners. But when you are back to the real world (like 'back from the future', the movie) it is a different story." Scott: The above view is oft stated. I contend that the Abhidhamma method is not theoretical at all. This is, in my opinion, a serious misunderstanding shared by many. It is, rather, entirely descriptive of reality. Take a look at the definition of the word 'conventional', from the Oxford Dictionary: "conventional: adjective 1) based on or in accordance with convention. 2) following social conventions..." And convention is defined as follows: "convention: noun 1) a way in which something is usually done. 2) socially acceptable behaviour...ORIGIN Latin, ‘meeting, covenant’." Scott: Convention is merely a consensual sort of thing - that arrived at by committee, as it were, and very likely to approximate the lowest common denominator. Do you mean to suggest that you consider that which is conventional to be more relevant and real than 'khandhas, ayatanas, and dhatus that are empty of owners'? That which the Abhidhamma method demonstrates above all else is this basic truth of anatta (or voidness which I consider to be used synonymously). There are those who do not consider that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha, and these sort of arguments of of no use in that case. If one merely considers the conventional as recommended above then the Buddha's utterance in SN 6 1(1) does not make much sense: "...This Dhamma that I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, not within the sphere of reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise... "Enough now with trying to teach What I found with so much hardship; This Dhamma is not easily understood By those oppressed by lust and hate. "Those fired by lust, obscured by darkness, Will never see this abstruse Dhamma, Deep, hard to see, subtle, Going against the stream..." Scott: What is this 'real world' of which is spoken? Is this not that which everyone can see and has seen? If this is 'reality' then why would the Buddha speak as he did above about his own penetration? No, I'm afraid I can't agree with the way the 'real world' is being depicted in the above assertion. T: "Now you are using the abhidhamma-dhamma perspective again. Of course, I have no doubt about dhatus and paccayas. Both views -- the me-and-you view versus the paramattha view -- are perfectly alright without contradiction or denial, as long as we know what we are talking about (i.e. not confusing one view with the other)." Scott: It has yet to be dealt with, as I see it, the way in which the conventional view is somehow granted some sort of reality - not that you have to justify anything to me; its just that, in my opinion, the argument lacks tightness in this regard. Unless one considers 'the-you-and-me view' to be only a matter of communicational convenience then I can't agree with you. We interact and experience and all that and we are not what we think we are when we think of 'we'. Over to you... Sincerely, Scott. #75124 From: "tom" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 10, no 2. zorroelbueno --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > In the sense-door process the javana-cittas follow upon the > determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) and in the mind-door > process upon the mind-door adverting-consciousness (mano- dvåråvajjana- > citta). The javana-cittas experience the same object as the preceding > cittas in the process, they "run through" the object [1], but, except > in the case of the arahat, they experience it in a wholesome way or > in an unwholesome way. Whether the javana-cittas are kusala cittas or > akusala cittas depends on natural decisive support-condition which > includes one's accumulated inclinations, and also on root- condition > and on several other conditions. <...> I must say that all this naming and tagging and thinking---what about the good old justhappening non-namable world of direct experience? Lost, lost,lost. Zorro #75125 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:01 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Tep, > Scott: I was thinking of river, water, the flowing of water, the > rocks and boulders forming the bed of the river, the various > currents and eddies structured thereby - I was thinking of the > Bighorn River. Despite all appearances to the contrary, there is no > river ultimately. Of course I perceive 'river' because of the many > moments of naama that intervene between the clear moment of seeing > and the moment of perception where atta-sa~n~na creates the > illusion. > T: Beautiful writing! And I particularly like the atta-sa~n~na > idea. In another discussion with Sarah I talked about 'anatta- > sa~n~na' in an arahant that was responsible for seeing no 'I' (due > to mana -- conceit). But it doesn't mean that the arahants were > invible to each other and to other humans. Does that mean an arahant would never perceive the Bighorn River because of lack of atta-sa~n~na? Sorry for interrupting, but I am just curious how this sort of contemplation on a 'river' lies within the framework of the four frames of reference. An explanation would be very much appreciated. Swee Boon #75126 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:37 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Scott, - I am glad that you have given me more details to understand the Abhdhamma as you see it. Exchanging Dhamma thoughts does not have to become a "hot debate", right? >T: "Of course, that view/perspective is strictly theoretical, because it is purely about khandhas, ayatanas, and dhatus that are empty of owners. But when you are back to the real world (like 'back from the future', the movie) it is a different story." Scott: I contend that the Abhidhamma method is not theoretical at all. This is, in my opinion, a serious misunderstanding shared by many. It is, rather, entirely descriptive of reality. T: Theoretical in the sense of not being "seen" experientially yet by non-ariyans -- like you and me -- in the real world of worldlings. ........... Scott: Convention is merely a consensual sort of thing - that arrived at by committee, as it were, and very likely to approximate the lowest common denominator. Do you mean to suggest that you consider that which is conventional to be more relevant and real than 'khandhas, ayatanas, and dhatus that are empty of owners'? That which the Abhidhamma method demonstrates above all else is this basic truth of anatta (or voidness which I consider to be used synonymously). There are those who do not consider that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha, and these sort of arguments of of no use in that case. If one merely considers the conventional as recommended above then the Buddha's utterance in SN 6 1(1) does not make much sense ... T: I did not invent the word conventional truth, Scott. It is from the Pali 'vohaara-sacca' that means commonly accepted truth. (See Nyanatiloka Dictionary.) There is no contradiction between the two perspectives/truths for people who are not confused. Now, concerning the Abhidhamma component of the Tipitaka, I am a believer that it was taught by the Buddha to his Chief Disciple, the Arahant Sariputta. Tell you, I am not against the Abhidhamma as you (and Kenh) might think of me. I understand that there is no conflict between the Sutta and the Abhidhamma components of the Tipitaka -- they are two aspects that co-exist. Same may be said about the conventional truth and the ultimate truth. So SN 1(1) does make a lot of sense to me, Scott. .......... Scott: What is this 'real world' of which is spoken? Is this not that which everyone can see and has seen? If this is 'reality' then why would the Buddha speak as he did above about his own penetration? No, I'm afraid I can't agree with the way the 'real world' is being depicted in the above assertion. T: Let me go back to your sutta quote. "...This Dhamma that I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, not within the sphere of reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise..." The Dhamma world of paramattha dhammas is experienced by the wise -- the ariyans. This Dhamma world that the Buddha discovered, as I understand it, is not the same as the real world of conventional truths seen by worldlings. .......... Scott: It has yet to be dealt with, as I see it, the way in which the conventional view is somehow granted some sort of reality - not that you have to justify anything to me; its just that, in my opinion, the argument lacks tightness in this regard. Unless one considers 'the- you-and-me view' to be only a matter of communicational convenience then I can't agree with you. We interact and experience and all that and we are not what we think we are when we think of 'we'. Over to you... T: I gladly take it from you, Scott. In your quote the Buddha said so clearly about the Dhamma world of ultimate realities as being "sublime, not within the sphere of reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise". It is clear to me that we who live in the real world are unable to experience the Dhamma, so we only talk and think about it. "The wise" who has experiential knowledge of the Dhamma can see both ways : the real world of beings and the ultimate realities. We are not that fortunate, Scott. Well, agreeing or not agreeing with me is not important at all. We have to seek the Truths through our own efforts. Tep === #75127 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Connie), --- kenhowardau wrote: > > cp: bravo! and quoting out of context: Path of Purification VI, > 91: <... they take it as agreeable, desirable, permanent, [196] > pleasant, self, because they are wrapped in the murk of ignorance and > dyed with affection and greed for self...> > > peace. > > Thanks, Connie, and bravo to you too! ... S: Yes, a nice quote. That's all of us - 'wrapped in the murk of ignorance and dyed with affection and greed for self....' ... > I was worried when I sent that post that it might be a bit OTT. It > was my birthday, and I had a nasty flu virus, and maybe (just maybe) > was feeling sorry for myself and taking it out on Tep. (Heaven > forbid such akusala!) ... S: Many Happy Returns! Was it the 8th of the 8th? That would be a really auspicious birthday for Hong Kongers.... Hope the virus is on the mend too. Tep and I were having a chat the other day about such conditioned and impermanent kinds of akusala (if that's what it was), so I know he understands such things... ... > > But no, Sarah had given me some very useful advice twelve months > earlier when I had a similar virus. Where was the so-called self that > had been coughing and spluttering all week? Nowhere! So how could I > feel sorry for myself when the present moment was so completely new? > Who's to feel sorry for? Actually, Sarah put it much more > diplomatically, but that was the message I got. ... S: Actually, I like your direct turns of expression:-) The point was just that we waste time dwelling on the coughing, the spluttering, the sleepless nights or whatever, when it's all long since gone. At a moment of kusala or wise reflection now, where's the virus? Just a name. The thinking about the story of the sickness makes it so many, many times worse. One moment of unpleasant bodily feeling only, but followed by javana cittas with dosa and then so many mind-door cittas with more dosa. Thanks for always reminding us that there really only ever is this present moment! We can't hear your comments enough:-) ... > > So you see, I couldn't have been feeling grumpy and sorry for myself! > I wouldn't make the same mistake twice would I? :-) ... S: Let alone lifetime after lifetime.... Anyway, all long gone, Grumps! Metta, Sarah p.s Apart from a couple of posts I'm finishing with now, I'll speak to anyone else a couple of days later, back in Hong Kong ============ #75128 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:01 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Swee (and Scott), - I am glad to have this opportunity to discuss Dhamma with you again. But are you sure that you wanted to talk to me instead of Scott ? You know, the Bighorn River and "atta-sa~n~na creates the illusion" are his story. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > Scott: I was thinking of river, water, the flowing of water, the > > rocks and boulders forming the bed of the river, the various > > currents and eddies structured thereby - I was thinking of the > > Bighorn River. Despite all appearances to the contrary, there is no > > river ultimately. Of course I perceive 'river' because of the many > > moments of naama that intervene between the clear moment of seeing > > and the moment of perception where atta-sa~n~na creates the > > illusion. > > > T: Beautiful writing! And I particularly like the atta-sa~n~na > > idea. In another discussion with Sarah I talked about 'anatta- > > sa~n~na' in an arahant that was responsible for seeing no 'I' (due > > to mana -- conceit). But it doesn't mean that the arahants were > > invible to each other and to other humans. > > Does that mean an arahant would never perceive the Bighorn River > because of lack of atta-sa~n~na? > > Sorry for interrupting, but I am just curious how this sort of > contemplation on a 'river' lies within the framework of the four > frames of reference. > > An explanation would be very much appreciated. > > Swee Boon > I would think an arahant does not concoct things up as we worldlings do in the real world (of sammuti-sacca). So, without the thought formations, that are supported by ignorance, the mind of the arahant is empty and still, unaffected by contacts at the sense doors. You may say the arahant's mind lets go of external signs of all kinds. In other words, the eyes see the river, but the detached mind does not process the sensed information further. Scott possibly disagrees with me. Tep ==== #75129 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep (Scott & all), --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Hi Sarah (and Scott), - > > >T: Perhaps, the signless concentration has no object. Don't you > think so? > > S: I think the object is nibbana, the animitta (signless) dhamma. > > T: Interesting! What about void and desireless concentrations -- is > nibbana their object too? ... S: Yes. One of the 3 characteristics of dhammas appears as someone is about to become enlightened (i.e in that process) and so the way of liberation is different accordingly. When it refers to animitta ceto samadhi etc, I believe it's referring to such liberation following the attainment of jhana. As a result, after liberation, there can then be phala samapatti (abiding in fruition), again of the 3 kinds - animitta samapatti, apanihita-samapatti or sunnatta-samapatti. See this extract from 'Survey': http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf "Nibbåna paramattha dhamma can be classified according to three characteristics: voidness, suññatta signlessness, animitta desirelessness, appaùihita Nibbåna is called voidness, suññatta, because it is void of all conditioned realities (saòkhåra dhammas). It is called signlessness, animitta, because it is void of “signs”, characteristics, of conditioned realities. It is called desirelessness, appaùihita, because it is without any basis of desire, namely, conditioned realities. When someone has developed paññå to the degree that he is about to attain enlightenment, he may penetrate the dhammas that appear at those moments as impermanent, as dukkha, or as anattå. Only one of these three general characteristics can be realized at a time. When he attains nibbåna his way of emancipation is different depending on which of the three general characteristics of conditioned dhammas he has realized in the process during which enlightenment is attained. When he realizes dhammas that appear as impermanent he becomes liberated (realizes the four noble Truths) by the emancipation of signlessness (animitta vimokkha 18). When he realizes dhammas as dukkha he becomes liberated by the emancipation of desirelessness (appaùihita vimokkha) 19. When he realizes dhammas as anattå, non-self, he becomes liberated by the emancipation of voidness (suññatta vimokkha) 20. With regard to these three ways of emancipation, vimokkha, four different aspects can be discerned 21: 25 1. By predominance: when someone realizes dhammas as impermanent, the signlessness emancipation, animitta vimokkha, is predominant. When he realizes dhammas as dukkha, the desirelessness emancipation, appaùihita vimokkha, is predominant. When he realizes dhammas as anattå, the voidness emancipation, suññatta vimokkha, is predominant. 2. By steadfastness: when someone realizes dhammas as impermanent the citta is steadfast by the signlessness emancipation. When he realizes dhammas as dukkha, the citta is steadfast by the desirelessness emancipation. When he realizes dhammas as anattå, the citta is steadfast by the voidness emancipation. 6. By inclination: when someone realizes dhammas as impermanent, the citta is guided by the inclination to signlessness emancipation. When he realizes dhammas as dukkha, the citta is guided by the inclination to desirelessness emancipation. When he realizes dhammas as anattå, the citta is guided by the inclination to voidness emancipation. 3. By the way to liberation at the moment of attaining nibbåna: when someone realizes the aspect of impermanence the citta is being led unto nibbåna, cessation, by the influence of signless emancipation. When he realizes the aspect of dukkha, the citta is being led unto nibbåna, cessation, by the influence of desirelessness emancipation. When he realizes the aspect of anattå, he is being led unto nibbåna, cessation, by the influence of voidness emancipation." **** S: See also this brief quote from MN, Sunnatta Sutta, (?I think), #52697 >5.”Again, Ananda, a bhikkhu.....- attends to the singleness dependent on the signless concentration of mind. His mind enters into that signless concentration of mind and acquires confidence, steadiness and decision. He understands thus: ‘This signless concentration of mind is conditioned and volitionally produced. But whatever is conditioned and volitionally produced is impermanent, subject to cessation.’” ..... Note: “MA calls this ‘counter-insight’ (pa.tivipassanaaa), i.e the application of the principles of insight to the act of consciousness that exercises the function of insight. On the basis of this he attains arahantship.” ..... S: No matter what the prior experiences, whether jhana experiences or any other states, whatever appears has to be known as being conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta in order for the realization of the unconditioned state and the eradication of defilements.< ..... S: I'll be interested to read your (or any other)comments on all/any of this Tep or anyone else. Corrections welcome. Apologies for delayed replies from now on. Metta, Sarah =========== #75130 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:18 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Tep, > I am glad to have this opportunity to discuss Dhamma with you > again. But are you sure that you wanted to talk to me instead of > Scott ? You know, the Bighorn River and "atta-sa~n~na creates the > illusion" are his story. Oh, I see. I thought you were endorsing his story. Sorry for misreading you. > I would think an arahant does not concoct things up as we > worldlings do in the real world (of sammuti-sacca). So, without the > thought formations, that are supported by ignorance, the mind of > the arahant is empty and still, unaffected by contacts at the sense > doors. You may say the arahant's mind lets go of external signs of > all kinds. In other words, the eyes see the river, but the detached > mind does not process the sensed information further. Yes, I agree. An arahant sees the river, but has no attachment on seeing a beautiful river and no aversion on seeing a ferocious river. He remains mindful and equanimous of what is seen. Being thus mindful and equanimous, he has no ignorance on account of what is seen. Swee Boon #75131 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, last reply for the time being... --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > T: I agree that wise attention about the FNTs involves conditioned > > dhammas. And I believe that in most people such wise attention must > > be supported by practice of the magga factors. > ... > S: What do you mean here by 'in most people.....practice of the magga > factors'? > > T: It means there are exceptions -- but they are possibly not the > majority of Buddhist practitioners. Of course, this is my opinion > that is based on personal experiences. ... S: I don't understand what you mean by 'practice of the magga factors'. Also, isn't there 'one path' only? .... > T: IMO practicing the NEP is defined through the right effort to > develop right view and four other magga factors, i.e. right resolve > (sankappa) through right livelihood, according to MN 117. For > example, "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: > This is one's right effort." Further, the development and culmination > of kusala dhammas (that have arisen) is the fourth aspect of right > effort [see SN 45.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta, DN 22, etc.]. > .... S: Perhaps we can discuss more on this topic of 'practicing the NEP' later, especially what is meant by the 4 right efforts etc. It might even be useful to go through MN117 slowly. I'm out of time now. Scott or others may like to take it up. Thx again for all the good discussions. Metta, Sarah ======= #75132 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & James, I can't resist quickly butting in here to say your discussion's a lot of fun:-) Keep it up!! ... --- kenhowardau wrote: >....Some others > here could tell you straight away it was 'receiving consciousness' > (sampathcchana-citta) and they would be able to add helpful > explanations. Therefore, by comparison with them, I am a beginner, > aren't I? ... S: :-) As long as everyone's clear that knowing it was sampaticchana which followed is no indication of any real Dhamma/Abhidhamma understanding!! I'm rather on James's side here...does sound like rather a lot of comparing and ME! lol! ... >K:....Only a Buddha could have known there were > conditions for Anguliamalia to attain Stream-entry right there and > then. ... S: More like it....and had Angulimala ever heard of sampaticchana? ... > K:...Even though I began Abhidhamma studies about seven years ago I > haven't made much progress. That is simply due to laziness. Energetic > students (like Scott, for example) overtake me in just a few months. > It's no big deal, and I am beginning to wish I hadn't mentioned it!:-) ... S: Not surprised!;-) What is progress after all? What is laziness? All sounds oh so conventional for you, Ken H! Just as well you've got James to remind you of paramattha dhammas here....more lol! ... > J: > Frankly, I > believe it is equally harmful to claim false expertise (to state "I > am enlightened" when one isn't) as it is to claim false ignorance ("I > am just a beginner" when one has been studying Buddhism for > decades). > --------------------------------- > >K: That is something the "no-controllers" at DSG have been telling the > formal meditators all along: Leave self out of your Dhamma studies! > Learn how everything is ultimately just conditioned dhammas > performing their functions. Why would you want to be thinking > about "James" and "James's progress" when there are no conditioned > dhammas called James? ... S: So now he's kindly reminding us back... .... > > --------------------------------------------- > J: > Better just to say nothing about such personal status and > leave the evaluations to others. > --------------------------------------------- > >K: I don't know of anyone who claims the ability to evaluate accumulated > conditions for enlightenment. It sounds like hocus pocus to me. ... S: Again, I think James has a point here:-) We can't stop others evaluating whatever they like....but the less ME the better as James appreciates:-)) ... >K: ...You (along with Howard and > Suan and several others) think that I take anatta and the momentary > nature of existence to an extreme that others here avoid. That is > understandable, but I disagree. I have my own way of expressing these > things, but my understanding of Abhidhamma principles is pretty much > the same as all the other "no-controllers" at DSG (I hope). > > You know how strict Sarah can be: if she thought I was espousing a > Dhamma of my own she would soon put me in my place. :-) .... S: :-) For sure! ... >K: You, and other critics of KS, are constantly pointing out that none > of the other well known Dhamma teachers say exactly what she says > (e.g., that anatta means there is no control). But now when I agree > with you you tell me I am conceited! :-) ... S: There you go...that's what dhamma friends are for.... Look forward to more!! Metta, Sarah ======= #75133 From: Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:24 pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Samatha as taught by the Buddha jonoabb Hi Howard > From: upasaka@... > Date: 2007/08/11 Sat PM 08:54:50 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha as taught by the Buddha > > Hi, Jon - ... > > If we take for example a kasina as object, what do you say is the > > development of samatha/jhana as taught by the Buddha? I am not aware > > of any specific mention of this in the suttas. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > As far as I know, there is very little discussion of kasinas in the > suttas. > -------------------------------------- That is my understanding too. My point is, if the Buddha's teaching on samatha/jhana differs from the samatha/jhana known before him, he would surely have taught in detail about the difference. Otherwise, his followers would not know how to develop the Buddha's jhana. But from what you say there is no such teaching of the actual development of this samatha/jhana to be found. > Howard: > In the Anupada Sutta there are mentioned volition, decision, and > attention within jhanas. I don't know about "decision", but as regards volition and attention that would be consistent with those being universal mental factors arising with every citta. > In MN 19, the Buddha mentioned that in the 4th jhana "When > the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of > defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it > to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives, ... I directed it to the > knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings, ... I directed it to the > knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations." It is such willful > directing of attention to which I refer. I'm not worrying about whether this is in > terms of cetasikas or anything else. It seems clear to me. And also, there is NO > indication of leaving the jhana to do this. Although there is no specific mention of the directing being outside jhana, I don't see how that possibility could be ruled out. It seems, if I may say so, a rather flimsy basis on which to postulate the teaching of a different jhana. In fact, on what you have said, there is no actual *teaching* of a different jhana, only a passing reference to it. Is that correct? ... > > This is an odd comment! The idea that samatha taught by the Buddha > > differs from ordinary samatha was one I first heard propounded by you > > quite recently. Are you now suggesting that this view is the norm in > > the Buddhist world? > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, I don't think it is. I have seen it expressed only by two > Theravadins - Sayadaw U Pandita and Bhikkhu Vimalaramsi, and by one Ch'an master, > Venerable Sheng-Yen. But I see it as having a clear basis in the suttas, and that > is how I view the matter. If you and others can adopt the extreme minority > position of opposition to formal meditation, then I'm not so concerned about > standing at short-stop position on this issue, which is not as far out as being in > left field! ;-)) > ---------------------------------------------------- Point taken ;-)). But then, it is not only we "extremists" who are inclined to question the assertion of a new form of samatha/jhana. It is a point which has apparently escaped everyone else for some 2500 years! (BTW, there is no "position of opposition" here to formal meditation; only a difference in view as to whether, on the basis of the texts, it was taught by the Buddha.) > > In any event, I have been discussing solely on the basis of the > > suttas and commentaries, and am happy to continue doing so. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And I've been discussing solely on the basis of the suttas, and I am > happy to continue doing so. LOLOL! > ---------------------------------------------------- ;-)) Jon #75134 From: Date: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:50 pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Howard > From: upasaka@... > Date: 2007/08/11 Sat PM 09:07:24 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness > > Hi, Jon - ... > > You seem to be implying that the idea of the NEP factors as traits to > > be cultivated (separately and individually, as I understand you), is > > something mentioned expressly in the suttas, and that the commentary > > and Abhidhamma interpretation is inconsistent with the suttas. I'd > > be interested to see any sutta passages you have in mind on this. > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'll give one example, which shows that right speech and its > cultivation is a very conventional matter pertaining to ordinary, daily activities: Thanks for the sutta quote that follows. The passage is not in the form of an instruction or exhortation for the (separate) cultivation of right speech. Rather it describes the person who is already "made pure" as regards speech, in other words, who is enlightened. Purity of speech cannot be attained by "practising" in a certain way. True, there may be some apparent improvement by deliberate effort, but because of the underlying tendencies that have been accumulated, only the development of insight can bring purity by the eventual eradication of those underlying tendencies (at enlightenment). _______________ > "And how is one made pure in four ways by verbal action? > "There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains > from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, ... > "Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has > heard here he does not tell there... > "Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, > speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & > the Vinaya... > "This is how one is made pure in four ways by verbal action."¡X AN 10.176 ... > P.S. During a moment of path consciousness, there is neither right speech nor > wrong speech nor refraining with regard to either; there is no speech at all > or anything pertaining to speech. The moment is utterly lokuttara. Yes, it is the lokuttara nature of citta and cetasikas at that moment that makes the moment "utterly lokuttara". The function of lokuttara citta is (among other things) to eradicate certain latent tendencies of akusala that have been accumulated (such as those that are responsible for wrong speech). For this purpose, the 'restraint' mental factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood all arise together with each lokuttara citta. Jon #75135 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:27 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 177 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 177 Intro: This section deals with rebirth-consciousness in the happy sensuous planes that is the result of kusala kamma of the sense- sphere and with rebirth-consciousness in the ruupa-brahma planes that is the result of ruupa-jhaana. --------- Text Vis.177: Herein, firstly as regard the 'formation of merit': the formation of merit comprising the eight volitions of the sense sphere ((1)-(8)) is a condition in two ways, as kamma condition acting from a different time and as decisive-support condition, equally for all the nine kinds of resultant consciousness ((41)-(49)) in rebirth-linking in a happy destiny in the sense-sphere becoming. ------- N: The wholesome deeds motivated by the eight mahaa-kusala cittas of the sense-sphere produce nine kinds of vipaakacittas at rebirth. Of the eight mahaa-kusala cittas, four are associated with pa~n~naa, four are accompanied by happy feeling, four by indifferent feeling, four are unprompted and four are prompted. Of the nine types of vipaakacittas eight types are accompanied by sobhana hetus, and one type is santiira.nacitta which is ahetuka kusala vipaaka accompanied by indifferent feeling. These can arise in the happy sensuous planes: the human plane and the six devaplanes. The text states, ‘kusala kammas are a condition equally for all the nine kinds of resultant consciousness...’ ‘Equally’, is a translation of ‘avisesena’, without distinction, without specifying. The Tiika explains that here an enumeration in general has been given and no distinction is made by classification of three roots, etc.; the vipaakacittas are spoken of as a mass. As to kamma condition acting from a different time (naanakkha.nikakamma) and as to decisive-support condition (upanissaya paccaya), the Tiika explains that only strong kamma, not weak kamma, can be decisive-support condition according to the Pa.t.thaana. There were numerous kammas performed in the past, and for a specific strong kamma to be able to produce result as rebirth-consciousness, not only kamma-condition, but also natural decisive support-condition is operating. --------- Text Vis.: That formation comprising the five profitable volitions of the fine-material sphere ((9)-(13)) [is a condition] in like manner for the five kinds of rebirth-linking in the fine-material becoming ((57)-(61)). --------- N: The ruupaavacara kusala cittas of the five stages of ruupa-jhaana can produce ruupaavacara vipaakacittas as rebirth-consciousness in the next life, provided the jhaana does not decline and jhaanacittas can arise shortly before dying. They produce results as rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes. Also here no specification has been made as to the different types of vipaakacitta and the same method is used here as in the case of vipaakacittas of the sense sphere. The Tiika explains that the cittas that reach abhi~n~naa, supranatural powers, are excepted and cannot produce results. --------- Conclusion: With regard to the different kinds of rebirth in the human plane, people are born with different capacities, they are born beautiful or ugly, strong or weak, with a healthy body or a body that is subject to many illnesses. This depends on the kamma that produces rebirth. Kusala kamma of the sense-sphere has been classified as eight different types, but there are many more variations and intensities of them. That is why their results are varied. People can be reborn with two hetus, with alobha and adosa or with three hetus, that means, with pa~n~naa as well. When they are born with pa~n~naa they can attain enlightenment in that life provided pa~n~naa has been developed. If someone is born with ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta, which is the same type as santiira.nacitta, he is handicapped from the first moment of life. This is a weak vipaakacitta that is the result of a weak kusala kamma. Whatever dhamma arises is conditioned and this is true from birth to death. -------- Nina. #75136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Conditions, Ch 10, no 2. nilovg Dear Zorro, You make a good point and your remark is appreciated. Op 12-aug-2007, om 3:27 heeft tom het volgende geschreven: > Whether the javana-cittas are kusala cittas > or > > akusala cittas depends on natural decisive support-condition > which > > includes one's accumulated inclinations, and also on root- > condition > > and on several other conditions. > <...> > > I must say that all this naming and tagging and thinking---what > about the good old just happening non-namable world of direct > experience? Lost, lost,lost. ----------- N: It is beneficial that the Buddha taught that there are kusala cittas or akusala cittas arising extremely rapidly after seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions. These arise because of kusala and akusala in the past which have been accumulated from life to life. Learning about processes of citta helps us to understand the uncontrollability of the cittas that arise, even now. In other words, it helps us to see their anattaness. This basic understanding is indispensable for the development of vipassanaa. If understanding of the level of pariyatti is not correct, the practice, pa.tipatti cannot be correct and then it does not lead to the goal. You have well understood that direct understanding is not thinking or naming. Direct understanding arises when there are the right conditions for it, namely correct intellectual understanding and above all: consideration of the reality that arises now: seeing or for example attachment to what is seen. Gradually we can learn that just seeing has a characteristic different from attachment. That is a beginning which is right. We learn that nobody can create seeing, and evenso, nobody can create kusala. Nobody can create awareness and understanding. They can only arise when there are the right conditions. If we have not clearly understood this, there may be attachment to having awareness and then one is lost. We read about seven javanacittas, but this does not mean that we have to count, that would be impossible anyway. It is beneficial to know that within a fingersnap there are countless processes of cittas and within them javanacittas. This shows that there is accumulation of kusala or akusala even now. We are reminded of the danger of akusala. Kusala citta is very rare. When we are not intent on dana, siila or bhaavanaa, the cittas that think, motivate speech or action are definitely akusala. This happens the whole day. What the Abhidhamma teaches pertains to our life now. The situation is not hopeless. The Buddha showed the way to develop kusala and above all understanding that eventually can eradicate all akusala. It can be done! You are not writing often, but if there is anything you would like to discuss more, please do so. Your remark shows that you are really considering the Dhamma. Nina. #75137 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:45 am Subject: interludes. nilovg Hi Howard, You certainly bring good points, worth discussing, as always. ---------- Howard: Sorry, Nina, I just don't buy it. For me, and with apologies for > saying so, this is not the true Dhamma. > -------- > N: so, what is not true dhamma, perhaps I misunderstood? =========================== H: My point was that although every path factor is a condition for every other one, mindfulness (and concentration also, for that matter) is far more prerequisite for wisdom than the other way around. I don't think the opposite teaching is true Dhamma. In fact, if Dhamma practice must await the arising of a wisdom that is anything more than the intellectual knowledge of the basics of the Dhamma, then it will never commence at all. ---------- N: There are many levels of wisdom, understanding, and therefore the word understanding may create confusion, not to say misunderstandings. There is intellectual knowledge of the basics of Dhamma, and more than that, there is pariyatti. This is understanding that already considers the reality of the present moment. Remember Sukin: < The understanding that it is all about presently arisen dhammas, with the support of the other sobhana cetasikas bends the mind to the present moment. In the beginning the understanding is weak; perhaps one has had little experience of one `world' at a time, that only intellectual appreciation can arise. However I think that it is by the same kind of conditioning factor that moments of actual experience arises, not by will, but by accumulated understanding. And this leads to greater understanding of the six worlds separately.> As you have often heard, and I think you know: it is indispensable to understand that whatever arises, also sati and pa~n~naa, cannot be controlled or directed. They arise within a process of cittas which arise and fall away extremely rapidly. As for me, I feel that I need constant reminders of this truth, otherwise the idea of self comes in that expects, hopes, wishes, tries. Do you consider this adhamma? -------- H: We begin with little in the way of true wisdom, and true wisdom will not arise just by studying the Dhamma any more than reading a cake recipe will provide dessert. ----- N: I agree that only study and reading are not enough. We have to listen to the good friend in Dhamma who brings us to the right track as soon as we go off track by our clinging. I am so glad Kh Sujin always emphasizes detachment. Is that adhamma? --------- H: We are, however, already directly familiar with mindfulness and concentration on the basis of everyday functioning. These namic abilities are present in all normally functioning humans, but they need to be enhanced, and, of course, they need to be applied usefully. Obviously if they are not applied as the Buddha taught they will not lead to good results. The Buddhadhamma is the map, and without a map we just get lost, just as there is no way to bake a cake without knowing the proper ingredients. But that goes pretty much without saying. There is no being a Buddhist without studying the Dhamma. -------- N: You are right that the Buddha dhamma is indispensable. I would say that mindfulness and concentration on the basis of everyday functioning is led by ignorance and clinging. You mention study of the Dhamma, and that means: understanding, nothing less. --------- H: Nina, you have been reading my posts for a good while now. You say I gave you reasons to wonder whether one needs understanding. After all this time of reading my posts, I don't see how one sentence of mine should make you wonder that. ------- N: I noticed that you study dhamma including the Abhidhamma all the time. You became more interested in the Abhidhamma and this I do appreciate! You are emphasizing mindfulness and concentration and you do not mention understanding right from the beginning. Perhaps we both see pariyatti differently? ------- H: If anything, it seems to me that you should assume that I simply didn't make myself clear, and ask for further detail or a reformulation instead of wondering about something that you have ample evidence of long standing is not the case. ------ N: Our differences lie more deeply. It concerns practice, what is practice. A good topic to discuss. I think no practice, pa.tipatti without pariyatti. Otherwise there will never be realization, pativedha. Another topic Kh Sujin is emphasizing all the time: the three rounds of understanding, and this is based on the "Turning of the Wheel sutta" and Co. Sacca ~naa.na, firm understanding of what the four noble truths are is the first one. We have to see that what arises and falls away now is dukkha. We have to see that the cause of dukkha is clinging. And this has to refer to our life now. There is clinging from early morning on, as soon as we wake up. We want to get things for ourselves. There is clinging to our thoughts, opinions, words, actions. This has to be known and realized. Otherwise the four noble Truths can never be directly realized which is the third round: kata ~naa.na. The second round is the right practice: kicca ~naa.na. Is this adhamma to you? Nina. #75138 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:32 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "...Theoretical in the sense of not being "seen" experientially yet by non-ariyans -- like you and me -- in the real world of worldlings." Scott: With the clarification in mind, can you please elaborate the point that somehow, because we don't 'see' it yet, this doesn't exist? Why would this preclude a learning about and a becoming familiar with? For example, one would discuss with a pre-pubescent child the changes his or her body is likely to soon to undergo when puberty hits. This would be so that when the experience arises, the experience is anticipated and understood. The unprepared child might totally misunderstand the psychophysical events unfolding otherwise. Although, at the moment of the discussion, these changes are 'only theoretical' in the sense given above, this nonetheless doesn't detract from the facts that 1) they are true, and 2) they will come. This analogy breaks down, of course, due to the biological inevitability of puberty onset (it is not inevitable that satipa.t.thaana will arise), but I'm making the point that it is not an illegitimate endeavour to study and familiarise oneself with the truth of paramattha dhammas even though this truth is not yet available to experience. T: "I did not invent the word conventional truth, Scott. It is from the Pali 'vohaara-sacca' that means commonly accepted truth. (See Nyanatiloka Dictionary.) There is no contradiction between the two perspectives/truths for people who are not confused." Scott: I realise you did not create the term, Tep. Here is the portion from Nyanatiloka to which you refer, thank you: "...sacca-vacana-Desanaa 'truth or term, exposition that is true in the highest or ultimate sense', as contrasted with the 'conventional truth' vohÄ?ra-sacca which is also called 'commonly accepted truth' sammuti-sacca...The Buddha, in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance with unconfused insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech vohaara-vacana." Scott: Isn't the distinction here between mode of discourse ('mode of philosophical expression') and not two different realities? Whether ariyan or non-ariyan, reality is only one way; there is still only one Truth. If it isn't too tedious or annoying, could you please elaborate more on how you say, as I read you, there is one reality for the non-ariyan, and another for the ariyan? I contend that this is only a function of the relative development of kusala dhammas, such as satipa.t.thaana, and that there are not two separate realities. T: "Now, concerning the Abhidhamma component of the Tipitaka, I am a believer that it was taught by the Buddha to his Chief Disciple, the Arahant Sariputta...I understand that there is no conflict between the Sutta and the Abhidhamma components of the Tipitaka -- they are two aspects that co-exist. Same may be said about the conventional truth and the ultimate truth. So SN 1(1) does make a lot of sense to me, Scott." Scott: Beautiful, man. I'm totally with you on this. T: "Let me go back to your sutta quote. '...This Dhamma that I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, not within the sphere of reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise...' The Dhamma world of paramattha dhammas is experienced by the wise -- the ariyans. This Dhamma world that the Buddha discovered, as I understand it, is not the same as the real world of conventional truths seen by worldlings...It is clear to me that we who live in the real world are unable to experience the Dhamma, so we only talk and think about it. 'The wise' who has experiential knowledge of the Dhamma can see both ways : the real world of beings and the ultimate realities. " Scott: Again, could you please elaborate this view that there is a 'world of conventional truths?' Do you see it that, until experience of 'the Dhamma world' arises, this 'world' is not occurring - that it is somehow lying dormant? Recapitulating, I'm suggesting that there is only one reality, the one the Buddha awoke to and taught, and that the change that allows this to be seen, more and more clearly, from not at all to a little bit to all, occurs from moment to moment. The Path, I'm thinking, is lokuttara, and these moments of consciousness are not 'of this world', so to speak. Perhaps you are referring to this. Also, it strikes me, that it seems easy to forget that when using the metaphor of 'seeing' to describe the arising of satipa.t.thaana that this isn't about ordinary or mundane perception, I don't think. I'd appreciate any clarification you may wish to make or understand if you've grown weary and wish to break off. Sincerely, Scott. #75139 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:36 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 15 txt: "Kaasira~n~no mahesiiha.m, hutvaa sakkatapuujitaa; ajani.m raajaputtaana.m, anuuna.m satapa~ncaka.m. "Yadaa te yobbanappattaa, kii.lantaa jalakii.lita.m; disvaa opattapaduma.m, aasu.m paccekanaayakaa. "Saaha.m tehi vinaabhuutaa, sutaviirehi sokinii; cutaa isigilipasse, gaamakamhi ajaayiha.m. "Yadaa buddho sutamatii, sutaana.m bhattunopi ca; yaagu.m aadaaya gacchantii, a.t.tha paccekanaayake. "Bhikkhaaya gaama.m gacchante, disvaa putte anussari.m; khiiradhaaraa viniggacchi, tadaa me puttapemasaa. I became the chief queen of the king of Kaasi, honoured and revered. I bore exactly 500 princes. Then, when they were young men, they saw a lotus without leaves* while they amused themselves playing in the water and became Pacceka Leaders. Without those beings, those heroic sons, I was sorrowful. Then I died and was born in a village on the slope of [Mount] Isigili. When I was taking gruel for my husband and sons, longing for the learning of the Buddhas, I saw eight Pacceka Leaders going to the village for alms, and I remembered my [former] sons. Then a stream of milk came out [of my breast] because of my love for my sons. *Opatta-paduma.m. CPD puts this compound under opatta (2), but the meaning is surely apatta (1). "Tato tesa.m ada.m yaagu.m, pasannaa sehi paa.nibhi; tato cutaaha.m tidasa.m, nandana.m upapajjaha.m. "Anubhotvaa sukha.m dukkha.m, sa.msaritvaa bhavaabhave; tavatthaaya mahaaviira, pariccatta~nca jiivita.m. "Dhiitaa tuyha.m mahaaviira, pa~n~navanta jutindhara; bahu~nca dukkara.m kamma.m, kata.m me atidukkara.m. "Raahulo ca aha~nceva, nekajaatisate bahuu; ekasmi.m sambhave jaataa, samaanacchandamaanasaa. "Nibbatti ekato hoti, jaatiyaapi ca ekato; pacchime bhave sampatte, ubhopi naanaasambhavaa. "Purimaana.m jinaggaana.m, sa"ngama.m te nidassita.m; adhikaara.m bahu.m mayha.m, tuyhatthaaya mahaamuni. Then favourably disposed, I gave the gruel to them with my own hands. When I died there, I arose in the Nandana [Park] in [the realm of] the Thirty [Taavati.msa]. Experienceing happiness and misery, I journeyed on in various existences for your sake, Great Hero. And I abandoned my life. I am your daughter, O Great Hero, O Wise One, O Radiant One. I performed acts that were hard to do, very difficult to do. Raahula and I remember many births, and in many births we were together*, being born through similar wishes and intentions. He was born in one place, and I was born in another. In our last birth, we both are successful after many previous births in association with the Best of Conquerors as point out by you. Many meritorious acts were done by me for your sake, O Great Sage. *The Buddha's son Raahula was the son of King Kiki at the time of Buddha Kassapa (so the brother of Uppalava.n.naa), and in several Jaataka stories, he was related to her (these are mentioned in DPPN under her name). { www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/u/uppalavannaa.htm } ===tbc, connie. #75140 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:42 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Swee, - > Swee: Oh, I see. I thought you were endorsing his story. Sorry for > misreading you. T: I endorse the wise consideration (practice/bhavana) of sa~n~a such that an akusaka (e.g. subhasa~n~na) can be abandoned and replaced by its opposite (e.g. asubhasa~n~na). The apology is mine. I think I probably misled everyone ! ............. T: On the arahant's perspective, you said : > Swee: > Yes, I agree. An arahant sees the river, but has no attachment on > seeing a beautiful river and no aversion on seeing a ferocious > river. He remains mindful and equanimous of what is seen. Being > thus mindful and equanimous, he has no ignorance on account > of what is seen. > T: It is very clear and not misleading ! Thanks. Tep === #75141 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:47 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 10, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, When we are not intent on kusala, the javana-cittas are akusala. When we are daydreaming or walking around there are bound to be akusala cittas but we may not notice this. When we speak, we may not lie or use harsh words, but we may not notice how often we are engaged in idle, useless speech. When we, for example, talk about the weather or about what we are going to do tomorrow, we may not notice the many akusala cittas which motivate our speech. Because of natural decisive support-condition one kind of akusala can lead to another kind, and therefore, each kind of akusala is dangerous. So long as we are not an arahat we still have conditions for useless speech, but the study of the Dhamma can remind us to be aware while we speak. By right understanding it can be known whether akusala citta or kusala citta motivates our speech. When we perform good deeds or evil deeds there are many processes with javana-cittas, and each one of these cittas conditions the next one by way of repetition-condition, except the seventh javana-citta. The teaching of repetition-condition reminds us of the danger of akusala citta. When akusala citta arises, there is not only one type but seven types succeeding one another, and during these moments we accumulate the tendency to akusala so that akusala citta will arise again in the future. When we see the disadvantage of akusala there are conditions for the arising of kusala citta. When kusala citta arises there are seven types of kusala citta succeeding one another. When we apply ourselves to kusala, kusala is being accumulated. This should encourage us to perform all kinds of kusala so that there will be kusala citta again in the future. Even when we speak a word of kindness or help someone just for a moment, for example getting something he needs and handing it to him, there are opportunities for kusala cittas. We should not neglect such opportunities or find them insignificant. Each moment of kusala is valuable because at such a moment we do not think of ourselves, there is no lobha, dosa or moha. A wholesome deed is never lost, even if it seems to be of no importance, because kusala is accumulated and it can be a natural decisive support-condition for kusala in the future. ******* Nina. #75142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:51 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 1, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, We read: Then with the mind composed... fixed, immovable, I directed my mind to the knowledge of the destruction of the cankers. I understood as it really is: This is dukkha (suffering), this is the arising of dukkha, this is the stopping of dukkha, this is the course leading to the stopping of dukkha. I understood as it really is: These are the cankers, this is the arising of the cankers, this is the stopping of the cankers, this is the course leading to the stopping of the cankers. Knowing this thus, seeing thus, my mind was freed from the canker of sense-pleasures, and my mind was freed from the canker of becoming, and my mind was freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom the knowledge came to me: I am freed; and I comprehended: Destroyed is birth, brought to a close is the Brahma-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or such. This, brahman, was the third knowledge attained by me in the last watch of the night; ignorance was dispelled, knowledge arose, darkness was dispelled, light arose even as I abided diligent, ardent, self-resolute. The Buddha had become a Sammåsambuddha who could through his teaching of Dhamma help others to be freed from birth, old age, sickness and death. It is said that the location of the temple, adjoining the Bodhi-tree, built on top of a much older structure, is the actual place of the Buddha’s enlightenment. We paid respect in this temple and we paid respect near the Bodhi-tree where candles were placed. We went around the area of the Bodhi-tree three times. Near the Bodhi-tree small monuments have been erected commemorating how the Buddha spent the first weeks after his enlightenment. The fourth week after his enlightenment he contemplated the Abhidhamma, which is commemorated by the “Jewel House”, but we could not reach this monument because it was partly inundated by the rain. We can pay respect to the Buddha with incense and candles, but above all we should pay respect by considering his teaching about realities, by having discussions and by developing right understanding. Because of the rain we could not have a Dhamma discussion near the Bodhi-tree as we used to have at other occasions, but we held it in the evening in the hotel. The Buddha wanted to teach Dhamma to his former teacher Aîåra Kålåma, but he had passed away. The Buddha then wanted to teach Dhamma to Uddaka but he also had passed away. The Buddha decided to teach the five monks who had been his attendants before and who were now staying near Vårånasí (Benares) at Isipatana in the Deer-park. When they saw the Buddha from afar they did not want to attend to him because they believed that he had reverted to a life of abundance after he had accepted solid food from Sujåtå. But when the Buddha came near they changed their minds. The Buddha then preached his first sermon and set rolling the “Wheel of Dhamma”. ******* Nina. #75143 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:09 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah - Thank you very much for the references that support your answer well. > T: Interesting! What about void and desireless concentrations -- is > nibbana their object too? S: Yes. One of the 3 characteristics of dhammas appears as someone is about to become enlightened (i.e in that process) and so the way of liberation is different accordingly. When it refers to animitta ceto samadhi etc, I believe it's referring to such liberation following the attainment of jhana. As a result, after liberation, there can then be phala samapatti (abiding in fruition), again of the 3 kinds - animitta samapatti, apanihita-samapatti or sunnatta-samapatti. See this extract from 'Survey': http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf ......... S: No matter what the prior experiences, whether jhana experiences or any other states, whatever appears has to be known as being conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and anatta in order for the realization of the unconditioned state and the eradication of defilements. T: A proposed deduction: That realization happens in a single moment then disappears along with the citta and associated cetasikas. If that deduction is correct, what about ruupa and nibbana in that moment -- do they disappear too ? If that deduction is incorrect, then please correct it for me. Thanks. Tep === #75144 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) indriyabala Hi Sarah, - Thank you for squeezing out enough time from your busy schedule to answer my questions. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > last reply for the time being... > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > T: I agree that wise attention about the FNTs involves conditioned dhammas. And I believe that in most people such wise attention must be supported by practice of the magga factors. > > ... > > S: What do you mean here by 'in most people.....practice of the magga factors'? > > > > T: It means there are exceptions -- but they are possibly not the > > majority of Buddhist practitioners. Of course, this is my opinion > > that is based on personal experiences. > ... > S: I don't understand what you mean by 'practice of the magga factors'. Also, isn't there 'one path' only? > .... > > T: IMO practicing the NEP is defined through the right effort to > > develop right view and four other magga factors, i.e. right resolve (sankappa) through right livelihood, according to MN 117. For > > example, "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort." Further, the development and culmination of kusala dhammas (that have arisen) is the fourth aspect of right effort [see SN 45.8 Magga-vibhanga Sutta, DN 22, etc.]. > > .... > S: Perhaps we can discuss more on this topic of 'practicing the NEP' > later, especially what is meant by the 4 right efforts etc. It might even be useful to go through MN117 slowly. I'm out of time now. Scott or others may like to take it up. > > Thx again for all the good discussions. > T: There is nothing much to discuss about how to practice according to the Noble Eightfold Path, since a) there are many good discussions on NEP at DSG to read, b) good articles such as Bhikkhu Bodhi's articles on NEP and related Dhamma exist, c) the Buddha said in one sutta that the development of the four frames of reference (cattaaro satipatthaanaa) is also developing the NEP. Likewise, thank you for doing your duty very well. Tep === #75145 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Tep & Scott) - In a message dated 8/11/07 11:02:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Tep, > > >Scott: I was thinking of river, water, the flowing of water, the > >rocks and boulders forming the bed of the river, the various > >currents and eddies structured thereby - I was thinking of the > >Bighorn River. Despite all appearances to the contrary, there is no > >river ultimately. Of course I perceive 'river' because of the many > >moments of naama that intervene between the clear moment of seeing > >and the moment of perception where atta-sa~n~na creates the > >illusion. > > >T: Beautiful writing! And I particularly like the atta-sa~n~na > >idea. In another discussion with Sarah I talked about 'anatta- > >sa~n~na' in an arahant that was responsible for seeing no 'I' (due > >to mana -- conceit). But it doesn't mean that the arahants were > >invible to each other and to other humans. > > Does that mean an arahant would never perceive the Bighorn River > because of lack of atta-sa~n~na? > > Sorry for interrupting, but I am just curious how this sort of > contemplation on a 'river' lies within the framework of the four > frames of reference. > > An explanation would be very much appreciated. > > Swee Boon > ============================ My two cents: We conceive of rivers due to all the direct experiences that serve as the basis, that that conceiving enables us to see the interrelationships among those experiential elements. It is good that we can have this conceiving, else we could never swim in the river, or ferry across the river, or boat down the river, and were we dropped there we would just drown! However, if we lowly ones can readily see that "the river" is a thought construct and that there is no such separate thing discernible without benefit of thinking, how much more so can a buddha see that? But a Buddha could still "see the river". From all that he taught in the suttas, it is clear that the Buddha could and did conceptualize, but it is also clear, I think, that he could distinguish between the directly experienced and the thought-created. As for contemplating the river, if the aim is to see through the conceptualization to the undelying phenomena amenable to direct experiencing, does that differ markedly from contemplating the breath with the aim of breaking through to the underlying interdependent, fleeting, selfless, willow-the-wisp phantoms so boldly called paramattha dhammas, and from there breaking through to emptiness and relinquishment? The breath is a river, surging this way and that. The mindstream is a river, sometimes flowing gently, but more often surging, seething, roiling. Buddhist jhana, supported by sila, Dhamma study, ongoing mindfulness, and guarding the senses permits us to dive in with eyes wide open, seeing with clarity all the exotic flora and fauna below the surface, becoming "at home" by means of careful inspection, and finally relinquishing false ideas and illusions, fears, hates, and attractions - or so I believe. With metta, Howard #75146 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha as taught by the Buddha upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 8/12/07 2:26:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > >From: upasaka@... > >Date: 2007/08/11 Sat PM 08:54:50 HKT > >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [dsg] Samatha as taught by the Buddha > > > >Hi, Jon - > ... > >>If we take for example a kasina as object, what do you say is the > >>development of samatha/jhana as taught by the Buddha? I am not aware > >>of any specific mention of this in the suttas. > > > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > As far as I know, there is very little discussion of kasinas in the > >suttas. > >-------------------------------------- > > That is my understanding too. My point is, if the Buddha's teaching on > samatha/jhana differs from the samatha/jhana known before him, he would surely > have taught in detail about the difference. Otherwise, his followers would not > know how to develop the Buddha's jhana. But from what you say there is no > such teaching of the actual development of this samatha/jhana to be found. -------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha taught the jhanas he wished to teach. There was no need to talk about other meditation teachings. There are many suttas that teach about the jhanas As for meditation "technique" and details, I'm sure that was an individual matter taught directly to the students sometimes by the Buddha himself but more often by his appointees. -------------------------------------------- > > >Howard: > > In the Anupada Sutta there are mentioned volition, decision, and > >attention within jhanas. > > I don't know about "decision", but as regards volition and attention that > would be consistent with those being universal mental factors arising with > every citta. ------------------------------------------- Howard: What do you mean with regard to not knowing about "decision"? Do you mean with respect to exactly what it refers to? It *is* listed. (I don't know what the Pali is.) -------------------------------------------- > > >In MN 19, the Buddha mentioned that in the 4th jhana "When > >the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of > >defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, &attained to imperturbability, I > directed it > >to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives, ... I directed it to the > >knowledge of the passing away &reappearance of beings, ... I directed it to > the > >knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations." It is such willful > >directing of attention to which I refer. I'm not worrying about whether > this is in > >terms of cetasikas or anything else. It seems clear to me. And also, there > is NO > >indication of leaving the jhana to do this. > > Although there is no specific mention of the directing being outside jhana, > I don't see how that possibility could be ruled out. It seems, if I may say > so, a rather flimsy basis on which to postulate the teaching of a different > jhana. -------------------------------------------- Howard: And I think that if leaving the jhana were requisite it would likely be mentioned, for that would be important. There is no suggestion at all to that effect as far as I can see. I, of course, cannot KNOW that there is no leaving, but there is no reason for suspcting it that I'm aware of. -------------------------------------------- > > In fact, on what you have said, there is no actual *teaching* of a different > jhana, only a passing reference to it. Is that correct? -------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha had been taught all the old methods and was dissatisfied. Then he recalled his own meditation under the rose-apple tree as a young boy, and resumed that practice. Specifically, there is the following from MN 36: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Now the Buddha was already familiar with the jhanas of his teachers. So what is going on here? What is going on, IMO, is recalling the different approach of his youth, an approach that he chose to resume. ------------------------------------------------- > > ... > >>This is an odd comment! The idea that samatha taught by the Buddha > >>differs from ordinary samatha was one I first heard propounded by you > >>quite recently. Are you now suggesting that this view is the norm in > >>the Buddhist world? > > > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No, I don't think it is. I have seen it expressed only by two > >Theravadins - Sayadaw U Pandita and Bhikkhu Vimalaramsi, and by one Ch'an > master, > >Venerable Sheng-Yen. But I see it as having a clear basis in the suttas, > and that > >is how I view the matter. If you and others can adopt the extreme minority > >position of opposition to formal meditation, then I'm not so concerned > about > >standing at short-stop position on this issue, which is not as far out as > being in > >left field! ;-)) > >---------------------------------------------------- > > Point taken ;-)). But then, it is not only we "extremists" who are inclined > to question the assertion of a new form of samatha/jhana. It is a point > which has apparently escaped everyone else for some 2500 years! > > (BTW, there is no "position of opposition" here to formal meditation; only a > difference in view as to whether, on the basis of the texts, it was taught > by the Buddha.) ------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! In the context of Buddhism that is opposition! ------------------------------------------- > > >>In any event, I have been discussing solely on the basis of the > >>suttas and commentaries, and am happy to continue doing so. > > > >----------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > And I've been discussing solely on the basis of the suttas, and I am > >happy to continue doing so. LOLOL! > >---------------------------------------------------- > > ;-)) > > Jon > =========================== With much metta, Howard #75147 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:14 am Subject: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Just before you went away, I think you were discussing this point with > Nina and maybe others of us. According to the texts, as I read them, the > "dry-insight worker" (sukkha-vipassana) experiences nibbana with an > intensity equivalent to first jhana. This is 'mainstream' Theravada > teaching, not KS's mistaken belief. For example, in the Guide to #30,31 > 'Compendium of Consciousness' in 'Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' ed > by B.Bodhi: > > "Those who develop insight without a basis of jhaana are called > practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When they reach the path > and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level corresponding > to the first jhaana. > > "Those who develop insight on the basis of jhaana attain a path and fruit > which corresponds to the level of jhaana they had attained before reaching > the path." > ... I don't agree with what B. Bodhi writes about this subject. There are many different interpretations in secondary sources, it is best to stick with the original source- the Vism. What B. Bodhi writes here doesn't correspond with what is in the Vism. itself. Most secondary sources just copy innaccuracies of previous secondary sources due to lack of investigation of primary sources. Let's only stick to primary sources. The Vism. states that the Sukkhavipassaka (dry-insight worker) achieves enlightenment with the first jhana as a basis. It is a jhana which is "access" in nature rather than "absorption", but it is still a jhana. I have quoted extensively about this, and I didn't bring the Vism. with me to the US, so I can't quote the relevant material again. Metta, James #75148 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:15 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Tep, > T: I endorse the wise consideration (practice/bhavana) of sa~n~a > such that an akusaka (e.g. subhasa~n~na) can be abandoned and > replaced by its opposite (e.g. asubhasa~n~na). The apology is mine. > I think I probably misled everyone ! Thank you for your further clarification. By the way Tep, I am interested in your view on jhanas which you made in a reply to Sarah in Post 75110. > T: Yes, mostly so except the word "mundane". In the past (three > years ago) I would disagree and insist that the jhaanas through > samatha bhavana must be developed first. However, I still believe > in the only kind of jhaanas called samma-samaadhi as defined in the > suttas, no mundane or lokuttara categorization. I remember quite a long time ago (some years back I think, how time flies), you were saying that there were two systems of jhanas: one system that is pre-Buddha, and one system that is Buddha-specific. Howard recently proposed such an idea which I find very convincing. He cites the Anupada Sutta and suttas that describe the night Gotama became the Buddha as sources of inspiration. I find that all the confusion about the necessity of jhanas are resolved with such an idea, and I find that there is nothing in the suttas that disputes this. And there is no need to deal with the mind warping categorization of mundane and lokuttara jhanas. Based on this idea, the necessity of the four Buddhist jhanas for full awakening does not come into question: attainment of the first Buddhist jhana is required for anagami-ship and arahant-ship. I am also of the opinion that attainment of the four Buddhist jhanas are not necessary for stream-entry. What are your thoughts if you would care to share? Swee Boon #75149 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] interludes. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/12/07 4:46:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > N: Our differences lie more deeply. It concerns practice, what is > practice. A good topic to discuss. > I think no practice, pa.tipatti without pariyatti. Otherwise there > will never be realization, pativedha. > ======================= We are in agreement on that, Nina, not disagreement. With metta, Howard #75150 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:36 am Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative buddhatrue Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > We might be talking at cross purposes here. I meant what I said in > the ordinary sense of "beginner." To give an example; if you were to > ask me which citta followed immediately after the sense-cognition > citta I would have to look it up (as I have just done). Some others > here could tell you straight away it was 'receiving consciousness' > (sampathcchana-citta) and they would be able to add helpful > explanations. Therefore, by comparison with them, I am a beginner, > aren't I? I don't have a lot of time as I am still in the US getting ready to leave. I see that Sarah wrote a very humorous post in response to our recent discussion. Contrary to her suggestion, I was not trying to give you a deep lesson about anatta. I was just trying to point out that differences of perspective don't always mean better/worse, advanced/beginner, etc., they are just differences. Sometimes it is necessary to evaluate the Dhamma expertise of someone else (i.e. when searching for a teacher) but I don't believe it should be a general outlook that one has toward the Dhamma and/or fellow Dhamma friends. You wrote one comment which really made me smile: "You, and other critics of KS, are constantly pointing out that none of the other well known Dhamma teachers say exactly what she says (e.g., that anatta means there is no control). But now when I agree with you you tell me I am conceited! :-)" This is, again, a matter of perspective. I have pointed out the uniqueness of the KS philosophy as a means of logical argument, not as an evaluation of worth. For example, I just ask those students of KS, who reject formal meditation, to consider that countless other Dhamma teachers, for thousands of years, didn't reach the same conclusions which KS has reached. How likely is it that they all got it wrong, for all that time, while KS is the first to get it right? It is simply a numbers comparison and an examination of numerical odds (which Howard doesn't agree with this argument, because it is superficial in nature). But this is just one argument I have put forward in DSG, and it isn't the strongest argument. However, from my perspective, the way you are approaching this subject is entirely different. Rather than a simple numerical evaluation, your evaluations appears to be based on an "US vs. THEM" mentality where you devalue the outlook of outsiders- "All those other idiots have it wrong, but we alone have it right! We are special, we are unique, we are chosen!". This is cult psychology and can result in extreme fanatacism. I was trying to demonstrate the misperception in such thinking: http://www.deikman.com/wrong.html Metta, James #75151 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Howard, > As for contemplating the river, if the aim is to see through the > conceptualization to the undelying phenomena amenable to direct > experiencing, does that differ markedly from contemplating the > breath with the aim of breaking through to the underlying > interdependent, fleeting, selfless, willow-the-wisp phantoms so > boldly called paramattha dhammas, and from there breaking through > to emptiness and relinquishment? I believe that 'contemplating the river' is contemplating on the wrong frame of reference. Since the river is not part of the body, there would be no self identification with the river. But the breath is different. It is an intrinsic function of the body that you experience and can identify with every day, every moment. The difference is east and west, I think. I also have an interesting thinking that the breakdown of external objects into paramattha dhammas appears to be an exersise in shifting the blame to those external objects. (The illusion of those external objects are to be blamed for attachment, aversion and delusion. If I can see through the illusion, all attachment, aversion and delusion would disappear.) The fetter is not the internal eye or external forms, but whatever defilement that arises in dependence on both. Since the fetter is what should be abandoned, does it matter whether what we see are paramattha dhammas or concepts? Swee Boon #75152 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 8/12/07 12:09:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >As for contemplating the river, if the aim is to see through the > >conceptualization to the undelying phenomena amenable to direct > >experiencing, does that differ markedly from contemplating the > >breath with the aim of breaking through to the underlying > >interdependent, fleeting, selfless, willow-the-wisp phantoms so > >boldly called paramattha dhammas, and from there breaking through > >to emptiness and relinquishment? > > I believe that 'contemplating the river' is contemplating on the > wrong frame of reference. > > Since the river is not part of the body, there would be no self > identification with the river. ----------------------------------------- Howard: When I speak of contemplating the river I don't mean thinking about it, but watching, hearing, feeling, and smelling "the river". The sights, sounds, touch sensations, odors, and the sa~n~na and ongoing thinking involved with the superimposition of the idea of river on the direct sense experiences. With a calmed and clarified mind, insight can arise. But you are right - restricting attention to bodily sensations is an easier and more-likely-to-succeed approach. That is why I favor kayanupassana and anapansati. ---------------------------------------- > > But the breath is different. It is an intrinsic function of the body > that you experience and can identify with every day, every moment. ---------------------------------------- Howard: It is easier and safer to work with - ceratinly less prone to error. ----------------------------------------- > > The difference is east and west, I think. > > I also have an interesting thinking that the breakdown of external > objects into paramattha dhammas appears to be an exersise in shifting > the blame to those external objects. (The illusion of those external > objects are to be blamed for attachment, aversion and delusion. If I > can see through the illusion, all attachment, aversion and delusion > would disappear.) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Seeing through concept is just a beginning. It is what we begin with in contemplating the breath. ------------------------------------------- > > The fetter is not the internal eye or external forms, but whatever > defilement that arises in dependence on both. Since the fetter is > what should be abandoned, does it matter whether what we see are > paramattha dhammas or concepts? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think it does, for so long as we don't see concepts AS concepts, we are stuck. ----------------------------------------- > > Swee Boon > ==================== With metta, Howard #75153 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:38 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Scott (and others), - Thank you very much for your time to write and for the quality of your discussion (sincerity and politeness). It is a surpise for me that you're still "hanging on" with me this long without a blurt of insults. Scott: I'd appreciate any clarification you may wish to make or understand if you've grown weary and wish to break off. T: Likewise ! But may I suggest that when you feel weary, just slow down to a few replies per month (rather than a few every day). But, so far it has been a pleasure to discuss the Teachings with you, and I sincerely mean it. Of course, there are some comments you've made that don't agree with what I understand. But it doesn't matter. Perfect agreement is not what I seek from any discussion -- what I am seeking is a wisdom to clearly understand the Dhamma (including the paramattha dhammas). Otherwise, why discuss it ? ........... >T: "...Theoretical in the sense of not being "seen" experientially yet by non-ariyans -- like you and me -- in the real world of worldlings." Scott: With the clarification in mind, can you please elaborate the point that somehow, because we don't 'see' it yet, this doesn't exist? Why would this preclude a learning about and a becoming familiar with? T: That was not my point in the past, it is not now, and it will not be in the furure. I do not see the Buddha right now and I did not see him before, yet I know that He existed in the past. My saddha in the Teachings is enough to convince me that there was this one-and-only Great Teacher in the last 3000 years and there are his excellent Teachings. The purpose of discussing the Dhamma is to hear what one has not heard as well as to improve the state of knowledge one has. Arguing for the sake of making a valid point, and for penetrating the Truths, is not wrong, IMO. ....... Scott: I'm making the point that it is not an illegitimate endeavour to study and familiarise oneself with the truth of paramattha dhammas even though this truth is not yet available to experience. T: I am glad you made that point. It is clear to me now that you think like that because of the suspicion : "Tep has viciously put down (or belittled) the paramattha truth simply because it is not experiential to him"! That is absolutely a misunderstanding, Scott, since I never once belittle the Buddha's Teachings in the Tipitaka. And the Abhidhamma is clearly one of the "three baskets". But please do not confuse the Abhidhamma teachings and commentaries of the wise men and women, who are not ariyan, with the original Abhidhamma in the Tipitaka. I think I draw a sharp line there. .......... >Nyanatiloka: The Buddha, in explaining his doctrine, sometimes used conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression which is in accordance with unconfused insight into reality. In that ultimate sense, existence is a mere process of physical and mental phenomena within which, or beyond which, no real ego-entity nor any abiding substance can ever be found. Thus, whenever the suttas speak of man, woman or person, or of the rebirth of a being, this must not be taken as being valid in the ultimate sense, but as a mere conventional mode of speech vohaara-vacana." Scott: Isn't the distinction here between mode of discourse ('mode of philosophical expression') and not two different realities? Whether ariyan or non-ariyan, reality is only one way; there is still only one Truth. T: The view of Ven. Nyanatiloka was about the "ultimate sense"; he did not state that there was only one truth. So do you say that the real world, in which the Buddha talked to his monks, using the "conventional language and sometimes the philosophical mode of expression", is not real? If that is the case, where are we now, in the ultimate world? The only answer that is not contradicting with the real world existence -- in the continuity sense, i.e. real in one instant that morphs into the next real instant -- is that there two inseparable realities, each at a different level and both are anatta. BTW 'anatta' does not mean the world of conventional truth does not exist. Read the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta again, please. [AN 22.59] "Now is what is impermanent, what is painful since subject to change, fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'"? — "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness. "When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html T: Even after he was liberated, he was still in the same real world that he had lived and practiced in accordance with the Dhamma. In the real world of 'sammuti sacca' the five khandhas exist in each of those continuous fleeting moments (continuity principle). They are real in a given moment, but unreal in the past or in the future time. Thus the khandhas are impermanent, painful (parinama-dukkha) and are not "fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'" -- i.e. anatta. The Buddha never said, as far as I know, that ultimate realities were the only truth. ................ Scott: If it isn't too tedious or annoying, could you please elaborate more on how you say, as I read you, there is one reality for the non-ariyan, and another for the ariyan? I contend that this is only a function of the relative development of kusala dhammas, such as satipa.t.thaana, and that there are not two separate realities. Again, could you please elaborate this view that there is a 'world of conventional truths?' Do you see it that, until experience of 'the Dhamma world' arises, this 'world' is not occurring - that it is somehow lying dormant? Tep: My first-round elaboration is shown above. I am glad to say more now, and in the future too ! No, I do not say that "there is one reality for the non-ariyan, and another for the ariyan". The non-ariyans do not see the ultimate truths (nibbana is one), but the ariyans see both conventional and ultimate truths intertwined. The two truths are inseparable : for example, the khandhas are seen by both non-ariyan and the ariyan, but differently. The view of the worldling morphs through time into the ariyan's right view, when they become virtuous and contemplate the 'ariya sacca' more and more, and gain more and more understanding toward the ariyan's right view. Because when one can let go of the upadana in the khandhas, he/she becomes an ariyan who sees the Dhamma and has the right view that the khandhas are aniccam, dukkham, anatta. If the arahants do not see the real world of "conventional truths" because it is not real (therefore, not existing even in fleeting moments), then they will not see their bodies, and other arahants or non-arahant monks are also invisible !! And if they do not see their disciples then there will be no teaching, no practice, and no realization of nibbana. Ridiculous, right? Indeed, the ariyans see their khandhas with no mental formation associated with tanha and upadana. Swee Boon has said it very well too. Just like the nibbana dhatu, the Four Noble Truths exist with or without a Buddha arises to discover them. Are the FNTs lying dormant until a Buddha arises? ................ Scott: Recapitulating, I'm suggesting that there is only one reality, the one the Buddha awoke to and taught, and that the change that allows this to be seen, more and more clearly, from not at all to a little bit to all, occurs from moment to moment. The Path, I'm thinking, is lokuttara, and these moments of consciousness are not 'of this world', so to speak. Perhaps you are referring to this. Also, it strikes me, that it seems easy to forget that when using the metaphor of 'seeing' to describe the arising of satipa.t.thaana that this isn't about ordinary or mundane perception, I don't think. T: Seeing one reality or more is a matter of mental abstraction or perspective that is based on each individual's perception and understanding of the Dhamma. However, the single model of reality cannot explain the truth that 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next..". Such understanding is a right view at the level below the lokuttara level. See MN 117. The "model" you have used to support the single world-view, the world of untimate realities, is not wrong; but I am afraid that it is inadequate as I have explained at length above. The path according to MN 117 has two levels, lokiya and lokuttara. The two-level path existence can be used to guide the "sequential" practice of satipatthaana as well, I suppose. Tep === #75154 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:55 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thank you for the interesting discussion. Sincerely, Scott. #75155 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:23 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Swee (and Howard), - Today I am glad to read your good discussion on jhaana requirements. Swee: I remember quite a long time ago (some years back I think, how time flies), you were saying that there were two systems of jhanas: one system that is pre-Buddha, and one system that is Buddha-specific. Howard recently proposed such an idea which I find very convincing. He cites the Anupada Sutta and suttas that describe the night Gotama became the Buddha as sources of inspiration. T: Yes, the non-ariyan jhanas are not samma-samaadhi since although such jhanas are concentration (ekaggata citta) they are not based on kusala. [There is the case where a monk, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana ... .] I am not aware of the Howard's idea you are talking about. Swee: I find that all the confusion about the necessity of jhanas are resolved with such an idea, and I find that there is nothing in the suttas that disputes this. And there is no need to deal with the mind warping categorization of mundane and lokuttara jhanas. Based on this idea, the necessity of the four Buddhist jhanas for full awakening does not come into question: attainment of the first Buddhist jhana is required for anagami-ship and arahant-ship. T: Could you, or Howard, please fill me in with the necessary background information about that "idea"? Based on my study, the sotapanna is perfect in siila and has some command in samaadhi and panna, anagami are perfect in siila and samadhi (both 4 ruupa- and 4 aruupa-jhaanas), and the arahant is perfect in siila, samaadhi and panna. ............... Swee: I am also of the opinion that attainment of the four Buddhist jhanas are not necessary for stream-entry. What are your thoughts if you would care to share? T: That opinion I agree with. I remember we once had a few converations about the sotapanna, and you produced a sutta to show me that the sotapanna must have the first jhana. However several other suttas on sotapatti are not so specific about jhana skill at all. Perfect siila, unshakable saddha (in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha), plus knowledge of the Paticcasamuppada have been cited. MN 2 specifically states that yoniso-manasikara in the Four Noble Truths will eradicate the three fetters. I interpret that MN 2 assumes perfect siila as the pre-requisite, and I do believe that perfect siila is the trade-mark of all sotapannas. [He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.] Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > T: I endorse the wise consideration (practice/bhavana) of sa~n~a > > such that an akusala (e.g. subhasa~n~na) can be abandoned and > > replaced by its opposite (e.g. asubhasa~n~na). The apology is mine. > > I think I probably misled everyone ! > > Thank you for your further clarification. > #75156 From: "colette" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:54 pm Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative ksheri3 Hi James, Before going to that vast A-Broad-ness "outside" of the USA, where so many people fail to consider when casting their political votes, I'll agree with you here: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > However, from my perspective, the way you are approaching this > subject is entirely different. Rather than a simple numerical > evaluation, your evaluations appears to be based on an "US vs. THEM" > mentality where you devalue the outlook of outsiders- "All those > other idiots have it wrong, but we alone have it right! colette: why is this just an example of our group here in context to KS's remarks when your statement actually fits discribing the Model that molds 99% of all US citizens from Womb-to-Tomb? That's nothing more than an idictment of the Blind-Leading-The-Blind, knowingly and willfully to and over the cliff. I agreed completely with you view that it's nothing more than YOUR OPINION from YOUR PERSPECTIVE which is an excellent view to analize as an object: a person's perspective POV, which would help them to better see the concept of the Abhidhamma called CONDITIONING, as well as illuminating the concepts of GRASPING, CLINGING, AND CRAVING, as being parts of the CONDITIONING process; but no, went a spiced up your main course with that "All those other idiots have it wrong, but we alone have it right!' stuff which caught my eye as a better definition of the times in which we exist today, not just here on line, in this forum. --------------------------------- ... This is cult psychology and > can result in extreme fanatacism. colette: darn, you were on a role and me thinks you deliberately used those two words together as to stimulate my oppinion: "cult psychology". My natural fall back position always is the the wealthy republican foundation being that of Joseph Stalin and the KGB so I have to say: "The Cult of Personality" and you were close with "fanaticism" but I'd say that Bolsheviks are far from fanatics they are nothing more than the Blind asking other Blind people to lead them. Who was that, Sharansky? ------------------ I was trying to demonstrate the > misperception in such thinking: > http://www.deikman.com/wrong.html colette: I don't know how you came up with this guy, since I haven't spoken to him in a few yrs. concerning his applications of Sufism and western psychology, it was a printer problem I asked him if he knew of why all of his stuff that I tried to print out to study at home was cut off on the right side. I haven't read the site you gave but I'll check it out soon, when I have computer time. thanx for the post and the platform. Have fun a-broad ;)! toodles, colette #75157 From: "colette" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:50 pm Subject: Memory like a Sieve ksheri3 Good Day Group, Does anybody remember what dharma group that Ronald Epstein is an advisor on? He also does a lot of writing on the Yogacara system through the University of San Francisco's site. toodles, colette #75158 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:36 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Scott, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thank you for the interesting discussion. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > It was my pleasure, Scott. I really appreciated the opportunity to have a valuable and long discussion with you. Warm regards, Tep === #75159 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:57 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) corvus121 Hi Scott Welcome back to the ratrace! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: A good point regarding conditions. I know they haven't arisen > for reflection once the thing is done and then, at least, I can close > the barn door after the horses are out. At least sometimes they can > arise after the fact, and then one is prone to cling to all sorts of > other things like guilt, etc. > > Would you say it in this way: If there is reflection and pause now > then the conditions must be in place? > > I can see how this might be tricky since one has to know whether what > is arising is truly the dhamma one thinks it is, and not just some > deeply rationalised thing. Andrew: This morning, I was outside cleaning cat litter trays from the cattery. I was working with the trays on a table. When I finished the last tray, I decided that I would wipe the table down with the cloth. I then noticed a fly sitting on the table. It had strange shaped wings. I was considering this when, all of a sudden, my arm swept across the table wiping it clean and killing the fly. I then had a moment of shock as I thought "that fly is dead". I then had a moment of guilt, thinking "why did I do that?". What was the cetana? Did I intend to kill that fly? I saw it there on the table *before* I killed it. But, as far as I can tell, my intention to clean the table arose without knowledge of the fly's presence and, at the time of the killing, the intention was not to kill at all, just "clean". Or was it? Scott, I simply don't have the ability to work these kinds of things out. If we accept Abhidhamma theory, over the whole time this incident took place (a matter of seconds), there were thousands of dhammas in conditioned play. The thought that "I" could control them is, to me, laughable and conceited. It is, as you say, "tricky"! The Buddha told Rahula (MN61) that before (and during and after) doing a bodily action, he should reflect "will this action lead to my own affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of both? Is it unwholesome with painful consequences?" Are we to read the Buddha's advice as "before you wipe down a table, check to see there are no living beings on it and go slowly so that you can stop in time if you see a living being"? And if ignorant old me takes that advice on board, am I wiping slowly out of kusala compassion or some dosa-rooted fear of being "un-Buddhist" or of suffering the guilts ex post facto? And does it matter if I am wiping with akusala (at least if I am going slowly there is less chance of me killing something? Sounds rather Jain, doesn't it?). How *can* we read the Buddha's advice to Rahula in a way that is fully consistent with conditionality operating on mega-fast impersonal dhammas? My thoughts on this are that, for the non-Ariyan, the Buddha's advice is simply - get to the stage when you can tell kusala from akusala and you will "abide happy" after kusala, not after akusala. What sometimes exasperates me on this list is, when someone raises questions like those above, someone else will chime in with "oh, you are arguing that it is okay to kill living beings and that effort shouldn't be applied trying to avoid this"!!! Just for the record, I'm not, folks. I'm questioning how the mind works - and does it really work in the way we think it does. Scott: "When satipa.t.thaana arises its object is known, not for its > place in the psyche, not for its 'meaning' in the broader tapestry of > a self with history, but only for its inherent characteristics." > > Andrew: I wonder if this is too simplistic? Do the inherent > characteristics include the hetu, the relational aspects, the > anusayas etc. In asking this, I recognise that, as soon as you start > weaving this web, it is very easy to come to a conclusion that "I am > the sum of all this fluctuating process" i.e. atta view via the back > door." > > Scott: This is true. All the other factors - its so complex - must be > in the works all the time, right? Yeah, I think the above was meant > really to point out that satipa.t.thaana is not simply equivalent (not > equivalent at all, actually) to free association or mundane > introspection or to any sort of navel-gazing. The statement was > sparse for that reason, I think. You're quite right to bring in all > the complexity. > > Although many of the same things I do in my work introspection-wise > seem to be satipa.t.thaana-like - noticing feelings, thoughts, > fantasies, and the like - it is not satipa.t.thaana since I have the > feeling that I am directing it. To me, this sense - I am directing > this process - is the hallmark of something that is not > satipa.t.thaana. I guess this feed back into that ongoing dialogue > regarding formal practise. Andrew: I think you are onto something here and that it somehow relates to what A. Sujin postulates as "natural" growth of wisdom and the oft-repeated phrase in the suttas that "right understanding comes first". As the Buddha said in his second discourse, no one can dictate "Let my consciousness be thus! Let my consciousness not be thus!" If we feel we *are* doing this, the moments of those feelings likely ain't satipatthana. IMHO! (But what about the other moments involved?). Best wishes Andrew #75160 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:33 am Subject: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative kenhowardau Hi Sarah, I am familiar with the idea of "not comparing" and I have parroted it a few times on DSG. Even so, I wonder if you would explain what we mean by it.:-) It is good commonsense advice in conventional situations, where it means we should just get on with doing our best. But does it have a special significance when it applies to the Dhamma? Sorry for being a bit dense. When you tell me what it is I'm going to say, 'Oh yes, I knew that!" :-) ---------------- S: :-) As long as everyone's clear that knowing it was sampaticchana which followed is no indication of any real Dhamma/Abhidhamma understanding!! I'm rather on James's side here...does sound like rather a lot of comparing and ME! lol! ---------------- At least now I know whose side you're on! :-) --------------------------- <. . .> S: More like it....and had Angulimala ever heard of sampaticchana? ---------------------------- No, not in that lifetime. --------------------- <. . .> S: What is progress after all? What is laziness? All sounds oh so conventional for you, Ken H! Just as well you've got James to remind you of paramattha dhammas here....more lol! ---------------------- Shush! This is not good for my image! :-) As I see it, we weren't talking about paramattha dhammas; we were talking about theoretical knowledge of the Abhidhamma. Mine is not good . . . compared with certain other people here. What's wrong with saying that? Ken H #75161 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:32 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ---------- <. . .> S: Many Happy Returns! Was it the 8th of the 8th? That would be a really auspicious birthday for Hong Kongers.... Hope the virus is on the mend too. ----------- Thanks. Not quite; it was the 9th of the 8th. Is there any kudos for coming close? The virus is nearly gone, I think. How is Jon getting on with his frozen shoulder? -------------------- <. . .> > But no, Sarah had given me some very useful advice twelve months > earlier when I had a similar virus. Where was the so-called self that > had been coughing and spluttering all week? Nowhere! So how could I > feel sorry for myself when the present moment was so completely new? > Who's to feel sorry for? Actually, Sarah put it much more > diplomatically, but that was the message I got. ... S: Actually, I like your direct turns of expression:-) The point was just that we waste time dwelling on the coughing, the spluttering, the sleepless nights or whatever, when it's all long since gone. At a moment of kusala or wise reflection now, where's the virus? Just a name. The thinking about the story of the sickness makes it so many, many times worse. One moment of unpleasant bodily feeling only, but followed by javana cittas with dosa and then so many mind-door cittas with more dosa. ---------------------- Oh I see! Thanks, that's very helpful too. My version of what you said is helpful in a paramattha way, of course, but it can also be helpful in a conventional way. Sure we have suffered in the past, but is the pain and discomfort still there? Or are we just thinking about it? It's a bit like something Pollyanna might say - to turn our attention away from the dark side of life. Works a treat! However, when severe physical or mental pain is still there (conventionally speaking, of course), I don't know of any quick fixes. Nina was talking recently (to TG, I think) about strong pain. It really only lasts a moment and is gone, but that is not an easy thing to know. Theoretical knowledge falls a long way short of direct knowledge at such times. :-) I hope you have enjoyed your holiday. Have a safe trip home. Ken H #75162 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nilovg Dear Tep, The anaagaami has eradicated all attachment to sense objects and all aversion. In this sense he is perfect in samaadhi. He does not necessarily master stages of jhaana. Nina. Op 12-aug-2007, om 22:23 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Based on my study, the > sotapanna is perfect in siila and has some command in samaadhi and > panna, anagami are perfect in siila and samadhi (both 4 ruupa- and 4 > aruupa-jhaanas), and the arahant is perfect in siila, samaadhi and > panna. #75163 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn dear friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 16 txt: "Ya.m mayaa puurita.m kamma.m, kusala.m sara me muni; tavatthaaya mahaaviira, pu~n~na.m upacita.m mayaa. "Abhabba.t.thaane vajjetvaa, vaarayanti anaacaara.m; tavatthaaya mahaaviira, catta.m me jiivita.m bahu.m. "Eva.m bahuvidha.m dukkha.m, sampatti ca bahubbidhaa; pacchime bhave sampatte, jaataa saavatthiya.m pure. "Mahaadhanase.t.thikule, sukhite sajjite tathaa; naanaaratanapajjote, sabbakaamasamiddhine. Pruitt: Remember the good actions fulfilled by me, O Sage. I accumulated much merit for your sake, O Great Hero. I have abstained from the [immoral acts Arahats are] incapableof doing, restraining [myself from] misconduct. I have abandoned much life for your sake, Great Hero. Therefore ther is misery of many sorts and many types of prosperity. When I arrived at my last existence, I was born in the town of Saavatthi in the happy, joyous family of a merchant of great wealth, gleaming with all kinds of jewels and surrounded by all sensual pleasures. "Sakkataa puujitaa ceva, maanitaapacitaa tathaa; ruupasiirimanuppattaa, kulesu abhisakkataa. "Atiiva patthitaa caasi.m, ruupasobhasiriihi ca; patthitaa se.t.thiputtehi, anekehi satehipi. "Agaara.m pajahitvaana, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m; a.d.dhamaase asampatte, catusaccamapaapu.ni.m. "Iddhiyaa abhinimmitvaa, caturassa.m ratha.m aha.m; buddhassa paade vandissa.m, lokanaathassa taadino. I was honoured, revered, venerated, esteemed there, having attained personal splendour and being greatly honoured among families. I was highly sought after by those who were splendid with radiant good looks. I was sought after by many hundred of merchants' sons. Abandoning household life, I went forth into the homeless state. Not half a month had gone by when I arrived at [an understanding of] the four [noble] truths. I fashioned a four-horsed chariot by supernormal power, paid homage to the Buddha's feet, the Protector of the World, the Unique One. *Thii 229, this is connected with her offer to perform a marvel to defeat the members of other sects according to the commentary below (p.248). "Iddhiisu ca vasii homi, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; cetopariya~naa.nassa, vasii homi mahaamune. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi daani punabbhavo. "Atthadhammaniruttiisu, pa.tibhaane tatheva ca; ~naa.na.m me vimala.m suddha.m, pabhaavena mahesino. "Ciivara.m pi.n.dapaata~nca, paccaya.m sayanaasana.m; kha.nena upanaamenti, sahassaani samantato. "Jino tamhi gu.ne tu.t.tho, etadagge .thapesi ma.m; aggaa iddhimatiinanti parisaasu vinaayako. I have mastery of the supernormal powers. By means of the divine ear, I know the thoughts of others. I have mastery of the knowledge of penetration of minds, O Great Sage. I know my previous lives; my divine eye has been purified. All my taints are consumed; now there is no renewed existence. Through the power of the Great Sage, the spotless, pure knowledge is mine, and knowledge has arisen in my of comprehension of meaning, states, and language. [In the past] I gave thousands of [sets of] all the requisites of robes, alms food, and beds and couches at the opportune moment. The Conqueror was pleased with that good quality and placed me in a foremost [position]. The Leader in an assembly said, "She is foremost of those possessing supernormal powers." ===tbc, connie. #75164 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:50 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Andrew, Thanks for the reply: A: "Welcome back to the ratrace!" Scott: Yeah, and its back to work today. You know its a good holiday when you lose track of the date and the days of the week - or is that just disorientation due to delirium? I can never remember which it is... Andrew: This morning, I was outside cleaning cat litter trays from the cattery. I was working with the trays on a table. When I finished the last tray, I decided that I would wipe the table down with the cloth. I then noticed a fly sitting on the table...Scott, I simply don't have the ability to work these kinds of things out. If we accept Abhidhamma theory, over the whole time this incident took place (a matter of seconds), there were thousands of dhammas in conditioned play. The thought that "I" could control them is, to me, laughable and conceited. It is, as you say, "tricky"! The Buddha told Rahula (MN61) that before (and during and after) doing a bodily action, he should reflect "will this action lead to my own affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of both? Is it unwholesome with painful consequences?" Are we to read the Buddha's advice as "before you wipe down a table, check to see there are no living beings on it and go slowly so that you can stop in time if you see a living being"?...How *can* we read the Buddha's advice to Rahula in a way that is fully consistent with conditionality operating on mega-fast impersonal dhammas? My thoughts on this are that, for the non-Ariyan, the Buddha's advice is simply - get to the stage when you can tell kusala from akusala and you will "abide happy" after kusala, not after akusala...I'm questioning how the mind works - and does it really work in the way we think it does..." Scott: Those are some very excellent questions. My first thought is, 'How many people actually think twice about killing flies?' This is already, as far as I can tell, a fruit of having read the Buddha's advice. Pariyatti conditions pa.t.tipatti. I think that starting to worry about how to put this in practise is the way that all this deliberate practise stuff comes about. I think it may boil down to undeveloped patience in that case. And self, I guess, since its like, 'Well, that's what I'm supposed to do so I'd better get on with doing it then.' A few techniques later and, voila - practise. Wrong. Its that way for me too in the sense that I find there is often a delay in the onset of reflection on actions of body or speech. For me, the action is usually over or rarely in its presence. It is sometimes just after or perhaps just in the middle of the action that it seems as if something kicks in and the nature of the action becomes a focus. For a brief instant, rarely, there is this sense of knowing the nature of the moment - knowing its flavour, and this seems to be pre-cognitive (or non-cognitive - no thought). Just an instant but, when it arises, it seems clear enough albeit brief. And then there is the thinking and the labelling and the remembering Dhamma and what have you. You ask the very good question: 'How *can* we read the Buddha's advice to Rahula in a way that is fully consistent with conditionality operating on mega-fast impersonal dhammas?' Speaking of cats, yesterday I was cleaning the lower bathroom, which houses the cat litter. I had cleaned it and had it perched on the toilet in order to mop the floor, so I shut the door while getting to something else. The next thing I know I hear this crash and, in an instant, knowing what it was, felt really mad - some kid had opened the door and some cat had decided to have a go in the litter box and it was now all over the floor. Instant anger. Instant reaction. Even though I know that I want to be less upset by stuff like this. And then that sense of whatever I was trying to describe above - an instant of knowing the flavour of the moment - followed by the thinking, 'Calm down, just cat litter, just clean the floor again, its just cats and kids,' and stuff like that. The thinking always comes much later and the thinking is not, in my opinion, satipa.t.thaana. Just thinking. I don't think that labelling dhammas is anything more than thinking - just labelling dhammas post facto. Me: "...To me, this sense - I am directing this process - is the hallmark of something that is not satipa.t.thaana. I guess this feeds back into that ongoing dialogue regarding formal practise." Andrew: "I think you are onto something here and that it somehow relates to what A. Sujin postulates as 'natural' growth of wisdom and the oft-repeated phrase in the suttas that 'right understanding comes first". As the Buddha said in his second discourse, no one can dictate "Let my consciousness be thus! Let my consciousness not be thus!' If we feel we *are* doing this, the moments of those feelings likely ain't satipatthana. IMHO! (But what about the other moments involved?)." Scott: Yeah. In the case of the fly with the beautiful wings, the classical psychoanalyitic analyis might be to suggest that the killing of the fly was a parapraxis - was a behaviour motivated by unconscious aggression. Your thinking of the fly's beauty was a defensive reaction formation against the impulse to kill, of which you were unaware and wasn't strong enough to prevent the act of killing by keeping the impulse from becoming a condition for action. What is conceived of as 'intrapsychic conflict' from within the mundane psychoanalytic paradigm is, perhaps, the intricate succession of kusala and akusala dhammas, each with varying degrees of strength or development, conditioning the ongoing continuity and leading to various effects and events. Maybe it develops patience to simply accept that 'one' simply has to watch it unfold, including the moments of tasting the flavour of things. I think this might also be the development of detachment. And to say this is, in my opinion, a reflection of the natural process of things and requires an acceptance that is hard to just sit with - impatience conditions aversion which conditions thoughts of practise and actions which are supposed to be practise which condition lobha and thoughts filled with relief: Ahh, I'm practising now. All is well. Anyway, the ratrace beckons and I must get myself and the kids out of the house. Later, man. Sincerely, Scott. #75165 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:59 am Subject: Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Sarah) - In a message dated 8/13/07 3:37:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > I am familiar with the idea of "not comparing" and I have parroted it > a few times on DSG. Even so, I wonder if you would explain what we > mean by it.:-) > > It is good commonsense advice in conventional situations, where it > means we should just get on with doing our best. But does it have a > special significance when it applies to the Dhamma? > > Sorry for being a bit dense. When you tell me what it is I'm going to > say, 'Oh yes, I knew that!" :-) > > ---------------- > S: :-) As long as everyone's clear that knowing it was sampaticchana > which followed is no indication of any real Dhamma/Abhidhamma > understanding!! > I'm rather on James's side here...does sound like rather a lot of > comparing and ME! lol! > ---------------- > > At least now I know whose side you're on! :-) > > --------------------------- > <. . .> > S: More like it....and had Angulimala ever heard of sampaticchana? > ---------------------------- > > No, not in that lifetime. > > --------------------- > <. . .> > S: What is progress after all? What is laziness? All > sounds oh so conventional for you, Ken H! Just as well you've got > James to remind you of paramattha dhammas here....more lol! > ---------------------- > > Shush! This is not good for my image! :-) > > As I see it, we weren't talking about paramattha dhammas; we were > talking about theoretical knowledge of the Abhidhamma. Mine is not > good . . . compared with certain other people here. What's wrong with > saying that? > > Ken H > ========================= If I may venture an explanation: I think that making comparisons, whether in terms of superiority, inferiority, or equality, tends to strengthen sense of personal self, and is thus best avoided. With metta, Howard P.S. I have changed the subject line of the post, as I think it makes sense to do so when a thread has gone in a different direction. I would in particular encourage doing this with other posts involving the subject line of "Howard As ...". #75166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:40 am Subject: Re: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) nilovg Dear Scott and Andrew, Your dialogue is interesting. The Buddha would ask Andrew: did you have the intention to kill the fly? If there was no intention, it is not akusala kamma. But it is past, and only sati of satipatthana can know this right at that moment, as Kh Sujin always explains. I looked up the sutta , to Raahula at Ambalatthika. Reflecting before, during and after speech and action. First the Buddha asks Raahula what a mirror is for. For reflection. The Dhamma is like a mirror. It is not just thinking, but reflection with awareness. The Buddha taught Raahula all the time about elements, khandhas, nama and rupa. Through satipatthana the difference between kusala and akusala can be known. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas alternate so quickly, how could one know them by just thinking? As Andrew showed with his vivid example: cittas are so fast, they are hard to trace. The Co states that when he has eaten his meal he should sit and scrutinize his consciousness: he should know from early dawn until now whether he has committed speech or action towards others that is unseemly or not. This is like the duty of the bhikkhu who has to scrutinize his consciousness three times a day. All this implies satipatthana. There is no self who thinks in this way. Without satipatthana it could not be known. As I learnt, after the first stage of tender insight the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta can be known. Nina. Op 13-aug-2007, om 14:50 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > To me, this sense - I am directing this process - is the > hallmark of something that is not satipa.t.thaana. I guess this feeds > back into that ongoing dialogue regarding formal practise." #75167 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) nilovg Hi Howard, LOL:-)) Nina. Op 13-aug-2007, om 15:59 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I have changed the subject line of the post, as I think it makes sense > to do so when a thread has gone in a different direction. I would > in particular > encourage doing this with other posts involving the subject line of > "Howard > As ...". #75168 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:46 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 10, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Atthasåliní” (Expositor I, Part IV, Ch VIII, 159, in the section on the bases of meritorious action) that, when one performs dåna, there can be kusala cittas before, during and after the wholesome deed: Now, as to these bases, when we think, “I will give in charity”, the citta works by one or other of those eight classes of kusala citta of the sense-sphere; in making the gift, we give by one of them; in reflecting, “I have given in charity”, we reflect by one of them.... The same is said about the other ways of kusala. It is beneficial to know that there are opportunities for kusala citta, not only at the moments we perform a deed of generosity, but also before and afterwards, while we consider our wholesome deed. However, it depends on conditions at which moment kusala citta arises, nobody can have control over this. It may happen that after having given a gift we have regret and then there are akusala cittas. We should not have aversion towards akusala citta which arises, because then we accumulate more akusala. Akusala citta arises because of conditions. There can be awareness of akusala so that it can be seen as non-self. At the moment of awareness there is kusala citta. Kusala javana-cittas of the sense sphere are classified as eight types: they can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling, they can be accompanied or unaccompanied by paññå, they can be prompted or unprompted (by external aid or by oneself). However, because of different conditioning factors the variety is much greater. If we have more knowledge of these conditioning factors we shall understand more clearly the great diversity of citta. Cittas are variegated because they are conditioned by different roots which have different intensities. The paññå which may accompany citta can be of many degrees and intensities. It can be intellectual understanding which stems from reading and considering, or it can be direct understanding of the characteristics of realities. Citta can be conditioned by the four predominant factors of chanda (desire-to- do), viriya (energy), (firmness of) citta or vimamsa (investigation of Dhamma, paññå cetasika) and these can be of many degrees. Citta experiences objects and these can condition citta in different ways: by way of object-condition, of object-predominance-condition or of decisive support of object. Kusala citta is accompanied by different sobhana cetasikas which condition the citta. We all have different accumulations and thus the type of kusala citta and its intensity varies for different people. There is a great diversity of kusala cittas but the Buddha classified them as eight types. The “Atthasåliní” (in the same section as quoted above, 160, 161) mentions the eight types of kusala citta and states that the Buddha’s knowledge is more infinite than space, the worldsystems, and the beings in the worldsystems. We read: ... Now, all these classes of kusala cittas experienced in the realm of sense, arising in the countless beings in the countless world- systems, the Supreme Buddha, as though weighing them in a great balance, or measuring them by putting them in a measure, has classified by means of his omniscience, and has shown them to be eight, making them into eight similar groups.... ****** Nina. #75169 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:51 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 1, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, In Sarnath one can see the great Stupa, the place of the first sermon, and excavations of old structures which were once the monks’ dwellings. The Chinese pilgrims Fa Hian (beginning fifth century) and Hiuen Tsang (640) who gave accounts of their pilgrimages to the holy places, also described Sarnath and the monuments they saw there. One can still see a remnant of a stone pillar erected by King Asoka. Our group presented a meal to hundred twenty monks of different nationalities in the Mahå-Bodhi Society. In the afternoon we visited a temple built by the Mahå-Bodhi Society where relics of the Buddha are kept which are shown once a year. But for this occasion the relics were taken out by the Singhalese monks who are guarding them and they were placed on Khun Sujin’s head. After that we all were allowed to come near and pay respect while one of the monks was pointing with a lotus to the relics. We then approached the relics for a second time and these were placed on the head of each one of us while one of the monks recited a stanza. It must have taken us countless lives to listen to the Dhamma and develop understanding, countless lives of accumulating conditions which enabled us to experience such a moment. The relics are all that is left of the Buddha’s bodily frame and when the teachings have deteriorated and disappeared also the relics will disappear. It may take again many lives before understanding is fully developed so that enlightenment can be attained. Thus, paying respect to the relics can remind us to have firm resolution to continue developing understanding, even though it can be only a little in each life. At the end of the afternoon we went to the Great Stupa and recited from the Vinaya the text dealing with the first sermon (Book of the Discipline IV, Mahå-vagga, I, the Great Section). The Buddha explained that the two extremes of addiction to sense-pleasures and of self-torment should be avoided and that the “Middle Way”, the eightfold Path, should be followed. He explained to five disciples the four noble Truths, the Truth of dukkha (suffering) of the origin of dukkha, of the ceasing of dukkha and of the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha. We read: And this, monks, is the ariyan truth of dukkha: birth is dukkha, and old age is dukkha and disease is dukkha and dying is dukkha, association with what is not dear is dukkha, separation from what is dear is dukkha, not getting what one wants is dukkha-- in short the five khandhas of grasping are dukkha... We then read about the origin of dukkha which is craving, about the ceasing of dukkha which is nibbåna and the way leading to the ceasing of dukkha which is the eightfold Path. ****** Nina. #75170 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:03 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Howard, > When I speak of contemplating the river I don't mean thinking about > it, but watching, hearing, feeling, and smelling "the river". The > sights, sounds, touch sensations, odors, and the sa~n~na and > ongoing thinking involved with the superimposition of the idea of > river on the direct sense experiences. With a calmed and clarified > mind, insight can arise. But you are right - restricting attention > to bodily sensations is an easier and more-likely-to-succeed > approach. That is why I favor kayanupassana and anapansati. Contemplating in terms of the six sense bases is contemplating on mental qualities and not rupas. Contemplation of rupas is limited to the rupas of the body in the Buddha's teachings. Hence, I don't think contemplation on the rupas of a river lies within the framework of the four frames of reference. > I think it does, for so long as we don't see concepts AS concepts, > we are stuck. Yet I have never read a discourse by the Buddha emphasizing the importance of the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts. I would be interested to know if your favourite sutta MN 39 mentions the importance of such. Swee Boon #75171 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:06 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Tep, > T: Yes, the non-ariyan jhanas are not samma-samaadhi since although > such jhanas are concentration (ekaggata citta) they are not based > on kusala. [There is the case where a monk, quite withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities, enters & > remains in the first jhana ... .] > I am not aware of the Howard's idea you are talking about. According to MN 111, Sariputta was capable of carrying out insight investigation right within the jhanas (up to dimension of nothingness) without having to emerge from them. This capability to carry out insight investigation activities even while being absorbed in those jhanas marks the difference between the two systems of jhanas. > Based on my study, the sotapanna is perfect in siila and has some > command in samaadhi and panna, anagami are perfect in siila and > samadhi (both 4 ruupa- and 4 aruupa-jhaanas), and the arahant is > perfect in siila, samaadhi and panna. According to MN 64 and AN 9.36 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html], it is said that attainment of at least the first Buddhist jhana is required for anagami-ship and arahant-ship. > T: That opinion I agree with. I remember we once had a few > converations about the sotapanna, and you produced a sutta to show > me that the sotapanna must have the first jhana. However several > other suttas on sotapatti are not so specific about jhana skill at > all. Perfect siila, unshakable saddha (in the Buddha, the Dhamma > and the Sangha), plus knowledge of the Paticcasamuppada have been > cited. MN 2 specifically states that yoniso-manasikara in the Four > Noble Truths will eradicate the three fetters. I interpret that MN > 2 assumes perfect siila as the pre-requisite, and I do believe that > perfect siila is the trade-mark of all sotapannas. I am very happy to see your agreement here. Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a thesis that suggests the attainment of stream-entry does not require the attainment of any of the Buddhist jhanas. Have you read it before? http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm Swee Boon #75172 From: Geoff Morrison Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory like a Sieve . . . sanskrit_stu... Greetings, Colette, Are you sure that Ronald Epstein is affiliated with the University of San Francisco (USF), located in San Francisco, California, USA, (strangely enough)? Are you thinking of the University of California at San Francisco? UCSF is primarily a health sciences and medical campus of the UC system. A search for Ronald Epstein turned up nothing on the USF web site. Perhaps Mr. Epstein is like Anonymous, a noted Greek author, in that respect. Will our DSG mystery guest please sign in, in that case. Metta, Geoff Morrison colette wrote: Good Day Group, Does anybody remember what dharma group that Ronald Epstein is an advisor on? He also does a lot of writing on the Yogacara system through the University of San Francisco's site. toodles, colette #75173 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 8/13/07 11:06:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >When I speak of contemplating the river I don't mean thinking about > >it, but watching, hearing, feeling, and smelling "the river". The > >sights, sounds, touch sensations, odors, and the sa~n~na and > >ongoing thinking involved with the superimposition of the idea of > >river on the direct sense experiences. With a calmed and clarified > >mind, insight can arise. But you are right - restricting attention > >to bodily sensations is an easier and more-likely-to-succeed > >approach. That is why I favor kayanupassana and anapansati. > > Contemplating in terms of the six sense bases is contemplating on > mental qualities and not rupas. --------------------------------------- Howard: ??? --------------------------------------- > > Contemplation of rupas is limited to the rupas of the body in the > Buddha's teachings. ------------------------------------- Howard: Besides body-door rupas, there are eye-door, ear-door, nose-door, and tongue-door rupas. Certainly the body-door rupas are emphasized, but are you claiming that attending to the body-door rupas is all that he countenanced? Even when attending to the body, what about functions mentioned of eating (and savoring), defecating, urinating, and speaking mentioned by the Buddha? Is one not to be mindful of the tastes, odors, sights, and sounds involved, noting their impersonality, conditionality, impermanence, and unsatisfactoriness? With regard to repulsiveness of body and the cemetary contemplations, are sights to be ignored? In contemplating feeling, is one to pay no attention to the associated consciouesness (eye, ear, nose, tongue, or body)? ------------------------------------------- > > Hence, I don't think contemplation on the rupas of a river lies > within the framework of the four frames of reference. --------------------------------------------- Howard: They are not rupas "of a river". They are sights seen by me, odors smelled by me, sounds heard by me, water-element felt by me. They are rupas that are objects within my mindstream UPON which I superimpose the concept/percept of "river". I make no assumption of "external" rupas.The only rupas I experience and can know of are elements of experience. I presume no other rupas than the sensations within mindstreams. ---------------------------------------------- > > >I think it does, for so long as we don't see concepts AS concepts, > >we are stuck. > > Yet I have never read a discourse by the Buddha emphasizing the > importance of the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts. > > I would be interested to know if your favourite sutta MN 39 mentions > the importance of such. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Probably not, but I haven't checked. ---------------------------------------- > > Swee Boon > ==================== With metta, Howard #75174 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:35 pm Subject: Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contemplative kenhowardau Hi James, -------------- <. . .> J: > I was just trying to point out that differences of perspective don't always mean better/worse, advanced/beginner, etc., they are just differences. I have pointed out the uniqueness of the KS philosophy --------------- There is no KS philosophy. Decades ago, KS noticed something the ancient commentaries were saying, and she brought it to the attention of others. Since then (largely because of her) more and more commentaries have been translated, and the message they contain has become clear to anyone who wants to know it. None of this has anything to do with a personal KS philosophy. --------------------------- J: > as a means of logical argument, not as an evaluation of worth. For example, I just ask those students of KS, who reject formal meditation, to consider that countless other Dhamma teachers, for thousands of years, didn't reach the same conclusions which KS has reached. How likely is it that they all got it wrong, for all that time, while KS is the first to get it right? --------------------------- I think you will agree that, in the time of Buddhaghosa (circa 400 AD), the ancient commentary view must have been paramount. How likely would it have been it in those days that some obscure formal- meditation minority had got it right? ------------------------ J: > It is simply a numbers comparison and an examination of numerical odds (which Howard doesn't agree with this argument, because it is superficial in nature). But this is just one argument I have put forward in DSG, and it isn't the strongest argument. ------------------------ I don't know how long it took, but the situation has reversed, and now the formal-vipassana view is paramount, and the ancient- commentaries view is almost unknown. So what? I agree with Howard. --------------------------------- JL > However, from my perspective, the way you are approaching this subject is entirely different. Rather than a simple numerical evaluation, your evaluations appears to be based on an "US vs. THEM" mentality where you devalue the outlook of outsiders- "All those other idiots have it wrong, but we alone have it right! --------------------------------- Every time someone teaches a formal vipassana practice, he is saying, in effect, that the 'no control' perspective is entirely wrong. There is no getting around this, and I don't take it personally. It is the same, for the no controllers: just by saying there is no control over dhammas we insinuate that formal meditation is a wrong path. ------------------------------------------ J: > We are special, we are unique, we are chosen!". This is cult psychology and can result in extreme fanatacism. I was trying to demonstrate the misperception in such thinking: ------------------------------------------- Now then, simmer down! :-) No one is claiming to be the chosen people. If you would just see the Abhidhamma explanation for a second you would agree there were no people of any kind - just fleeting paramattha dhammas. At a moment of right understanding there can be no question of "them and us." Sure, in between moments of right understanding there can be silly ideas again, but they could never become dominant in the philosophy of an Abhidhamma student. If I ever suggest that you formal meditators are a bunch of idiots, please take it as a temporary aberration - not my philosophy. Ken H #75175 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:10 pm Subject: Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) kenhowardau Hi Howard, Thanks for your help: ----------- <. . .> H: > If I may venture an explanation: I think that making comparisons, whether in terms of superiority, inferiority, or equality, tends to strengthen sense of personal self, and is thus best avoided. ------------ Yes, I can see that. But I still get the feeling there is something more to this "don't compare" advice that I am missing. If I had been talking to James about tennis - instead of about Abhidhamma study - and if I had said that I was a beginner in comparison to him, would he and Sarah have cautioned me against making that comparison? Abhidhamma study can be equally as conventional as tennis, can't it? We don't identify it by the presence or absence of certain paramattha dhammas. So should I avoid saying I am a beginner at it? It could be helpful for other people to know that. For example, if they wanted to ask which citta followed the sense-cognition citta, they would know to ask someone else. :-) ---------------------- H: > P.S. I have changed the subject line of the post, as I think it makes sense to do so when a thread has gone in a different direction. I would in particular encourage doing this with other posts involving the subject line of "Howard As ...". ----------------------- Good point! Sorry I hadn't read it before posting to James just now. There is a lot in that thread that we might not get around to discussing. Doesn't it strike you as strange that Suan - a staunch Theravadin with not much time for Mahayana (as I understand him) - should single you out the way he did? After all, you make no secret of your eclecticism. You often say Theravada is the best school "on balance" but you are far from staunch in that way. So what is it about you that Suan so strongly approves of? It is your defence of formal practice, of course. And does it matter which precise formal practice you defend? No, I don't think Suan's form of meditation would be particularly similar to yours. From my observations, the only thing that unites formal meditators is that they formally meditate. I hope I am not speaking out of turn. :-) Ken H #75176 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:55 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Nina, - I am pleased to read your short-but-helpful comment on the anaagaami's accomplishment that has helped expand the discussion I had earlier with Swee Boon. Nina (#75162): "The anaagaami has eradicated all attachment to sense objects and all aversion. In this sense he is perfect in samaadhi. He does not necessarily master stages of jhaana." Nina. Op 12-aug-2007, om 22:23 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Based on my study, the > sotapanna is perfect in siila and has some command in samaadhi and > panna, anagami are perfect in siila and samadhi (both 4 ruupa- and 4 > aruupa-jhaanas), and the arahant is perfect in siila, samaadhi and > panna. .............. T: There are two issues you raised : i) "The anaagaami has eradicated all attachment to sense objects and all aversion. In this sense he is perfect in samaadhi."; ii) "He does not necessarily master stages of jhaana." . The first issue is not clear to me without telling me what you mean by "samadhi". It seems to me you define "perfect samaadhi" in terms of the eradication of "all attachment to sense objects and all aversion". The second issue is about the role of jhaana in the anaagaami's attainment. By saying that anagamis are "perfect in siila and samadhi (both 4 ruupa- and 4 aruupa-jhaanas)" I was only partially correct, since I only talked about the attainment of cessation through the eight attainments. Vism. XXIII, 18, p. 731 : " No ordinary men, no stream-enterers or once-returners, and no non-returners and Arahants who are bare insight workers attain it. But both non-returners and those with cankers destroyed(Arahants) who are obtainers of the eight attainments attain it." Tep === #75177 From: "colette" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory like a Sieve . . . ksheri3 Hi Geoff, > Are you sure that Ronald Epstein is affiliated with the University of San Francisco (USF), located in San Francisco, California, USA, (strangely enough)? colette: what is so strange about the University of Cal. system having a branch in S.F.? With all of the learned peoples and societies in the S.F. area I would think that it's a "cauldron" bubbling with new ideas. This could be an after-effect from my recent focus on the situation that existed in Berkely during the 60s however the lack of INDEPENDENCE found in the educational system nowadays is disheartening. ---------------------------------- Are you thinking of the University of California at San Francisco? UCSF is primarily a health sciences and medical campus of the UC system. colette: since Yogacara is a part of the "mind-only" philosophy and the Abhidhamma is constantly confused with Freudian and Jungian thought here in the West, it does make sense that his material would be better suited for the UCSF however I am more than willing to place my wager on the fact that Mr. Epstein's work is published in the USF, I'll check my material at home although some of his charts and graphs are more than confusing of the issues. ------------------------------- A search for Ronald Epstein turned up nothing on the USF web site. Perhaps Mr. Epstein is like Anonymous, a noted Greek author, in that respect. colette: interesting that you turned up the author of the first piece of caligraphy I did back in '73 or '74, won a prize for it,in old english text, I drew the motifs, on parchment paper: "It is better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Anon. for years it struck me as odd that such a quote, so profound was made by such an author and this Anon only had a single quote of value. I searched and searched for this person but could never find ANYTHING written by Anon. which eventually led me to believe he was a "one hit wonder". That is, of course, until somebody in my high school yrs. informed me that Anon. is not a person, much to my chagrin, anon is like a trawling net that simply encapsulates a large group of people like a fraternity or something. As for Greek authors and authorship, jeeze, might as well pull out the nitro since it's gonna be one of those noted "four on the floor" deals, huh? --------------------------- Will our DSG mystery guest please sign in, in that case. colette: who might this be? A mystery? A mystery guest? "run run rudolph" huh. Maybe this could be a forum to describe what's going on in hopes of a better solution than a Western esoteric forum whose answers would come back to me ALLLLLLLL KINDS OF CRYPTIC and non-specific which would just lead to further meditation. Okay, I'm in a state of weightlessness: I was struck by some VERY ODD realizations over the weekend and have been meditating on their nature but I can't get away from the aspect of seeing these aspects of an individual as "being" constituent parts of a majority of other sentient beings in the global community. At first I was looking for the aspect of weightlessness in reference to "Falling" was creating Tumo (psychic heat) and I was simply burning with the realizations of the CLEAR LIGHT but that's not it at all since I maintain equilibrium and I've noticed that I take strange positions, as I fall, that show my consciousnes. Any skydiver could translate that better. With respect to the act of "falling" I notice that there are layers which I fall through and that it is an all encompassing experience i.e. the nature of the people is the same as the nature of the environment, etc. As I've said, while Mr. Epstein is a member of the Yogacara community I am deep inside the Tibetan myseries, so there are only tangents. As I write I find that I'm applying words that self-explain the situation so as the student I see that I am better at being the professor or teacher. I'll think about what I failed to convey above and what I simply tried to focus on since this will let me know a little bit about what I've missed in my observations and mindfulness. toodles, colette > Geoff Morrison > > colette wrote: Good Day Group, > > Does anybody remember what dharma group that Ronald Epstein is an > advisor on? He also does a lot of writing on the Yogacara system > through the University of San Francisco's site. <...> #75178 From: "colette" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory like a Sieve . . . ksheri3 Hi Geoff, It's neither, UCSF nor USF, it is SFSU! thanx but I'm looking for the dharma society he speaks to. colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Geoff Morrison wrote: > > Greetings, Colette, > > Are you sure that Ronald Epstein is affiliated with the University of San Francisco (USF), located in San Francisco, California, USA, (strangely enough)? <...> #75179 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:21 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Swee, - Thank you for your conversation on jhaana and the sotapanna. >Swee: According to MN 64 and AN 9.36 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html], it is said that attainment of at least the first Buddhist jhana is required for anagami-ship and arahant-ship. > T: That opinion I agree with. I remember we once had a few > converations about the sotapanna, and you produced a sutta to show > me that the sotapanna must have the first jhana. However several > other suttas on sotapatti are not so specific about jhana skill at > all. Perfect siila, unshakable saddha (in the Buddha, the Dhamma > and the Sangha), plus knowledge of the Paticcasamuppada have been > cited. MN 2 specifically states that yoniso-manasikara in the Four > Noble Truths will eradicate the three fetters. I interpret that MN > 2 assumes perfect siila as the pre-requisite, and I do believe that > perfect siila is the trade-mark of all sotapannas. >Swee: I am very happy to see your agreement here. Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a thesis that suggests the attainment of stream-entry does not require the attainment of any of the Buddhist jhanas. Have you read it before? http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm ................... T: Yes, I read it before. The idea of pure vipassana meditation, that does not require samatha (jhaana-based serenity), can be found in only one or two suttas that I know of(e.g. AN 4.170). And, of course, there have been debates between dry-insighters and samatha-vipassana practitioners everywhere (including DSG). BB acknowledges samatha as follows: "I myself believe there is strong evidence in the Nikâyas that the jhânas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner.". So, you are right to notice: "Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a thesis that suggests the attainment of stream-entry does not require the attainment of any of the Buddhist jhanas.". I am also very happy to concur with you on the necessity of the 1st jhana (i.e. as the strong-enough concentration base to support non- distracted contemplation of the khandhas, for example). My reason is as follows: successful development of the four frames of reference will lead to the 1st and 2nd jhaanas (MN 125 and SN 47.10) and further to the 3rd and 4th jhana via samma-samaadhi (see MN 117, DN 22). Tep === #75180 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/13/07 8:12:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for your help: > ----------- > <. . .> > H: >If I may venture an explanation: I think that making > comparisons, whether in terms of superiority, inferiority, or > equality, tends to strengthen sense of personal self, and is thus > best avoided. > ------------ > > Yes, I can see that. But I still get the feeling there is something > more to this "don't compare" advice that I am missing. If I had been > talking to James about tennis - instead of about Abhidhamma study - > and if I had said that I was a beginner in comparison to him, would > he and Sarah have cautioned me against making that comparison? > > Abhidhamma study can be equally as conventional as tennis, can't it? > We don't identify it by the presence or absence of certain paramattha > dhammas. So should I avoid saying I am a beginner at it? It could be > helpful for other people to know that. For example, if they wanted to > ask which citta followed the sense-cognition citta, they would know > to ask someone else. :-) ----------------------------------------- Howard: I think you are right, Ken. Comparisons (in general) are odious, as the bard said. I think that is generally true, BUT depending on the underlying attitude. I do think that comparisons in any area CAN be matter-of-fact without much in the way of sense of self affected or involved, and in that case there is little problem. When they are not matter-of-fact, though, as far as one's emotions especially are concerned, they tend to feed sense-of-self, I think. ------------------------------------------ > > ---------------------- > H: >P.S. I have changed the subject line of the post, as I think it > makes sense to do so when a thread has gone in a different direction. > I would in particular encourage doing this with other posts involving > the subject line of "Howard As ...". > ----------------------- > > Good point! Sorry I hadn't read it before posting to James just now. ----------------------------------------- Howard: No problem. -------------------------------------- > > There is a lot in that thread that we might not get around to > discussing. Doesn't it strike you as strange that Suan - a staunch > Theravadin with not much time for Mahayana (as I understand him) - > should single you out the way he did? After all, you make no secret > of your eclecticism. You often say Theravada is the best school "on > balance" but you are far from staunch in that way. --------------------------------------- Howard: I consider myself 99% Theravadin. I don't recall speaking of Theravada as best "on balance". I think it is surely the closest to the Buddha's Dhamma. I AM a Therevadin. I happen to also consider other schools to be legitimately Buddhist as well,and Ido find much of value there. As for Suan's post, he simply was pleased with my defending meditation, I believe. ------------------------------------ > > So what is it about you that Suan so strongly approves of? It is your > defence of formal practice, of course. And does it matter which > precise formal practice you defend? No, I don't think Suan's form of > meditation would be particularly similar to yours. > ------------------------------------ Howard: I have no idea. Mine follows the Anapansati Sutta as best I understand it. Suan can speak for himself. ------------------------------------ From my > > observations, the only thing that unites formal meditators is that > they formally meditate. ------------------------------------ Howard: Likewise for those who do not meditate. ------------------------------------ > > I hope I am not speaking out of turn. :-) ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I spoke last - so now it's your turn! LOLOL! ------------------------------------------ > > Ken H > > ======================= With metta, Howard #75181 From: Geoff Morrison Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory like a Sieve . . . [Found, not Lost] sanskrit_stu... Hi Colette, Professor Ron(ald) Epstein is now retired from San Francisco State University's Department of Philosophy. I am not sure if he was granted Emeritus status by SFSU, upon his retirement. However, he is now a research professor at the Institute of World Religions in Berkeley, California, which is affiliated with the Dharma Realm Buddhist Association and Dharma Realm Buddhist University. If you visit the SFSU web site and search for Ron's personal web pages, he has left all of his bibliographies and resources up on the SFSU's Department of Philosophy web site, as personal web pages. You can contact him by e-mail through SFSU, if you have more questions for him. Now you know what Ron is doing these days and where to find him. With Metta, Geoff Morrison --- colette wrote: > Hi Geoff, > > It's neither, UCSF nor USF, it is SFSU! thanx but > I'm looking for the > dharma society he speaks to. <...> #75182 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:28 pm Subject: Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---------- KH: > > From my > > observations, the only thing that unites formal meditators is that > they formally meditate. Howard: Likewise for those who do not meditate. ---------- Ha ha, I walked into that. :-) At the risk of sounding like a bad loser, however, I must disagree. The non-meditators are a tiny minority in the Buddhist world, and they are as thick as thieves. I know of no other group of people who are so consistent (so uniform) in their interpretation of the Dhamma. Perhaps you are not referring specifically to the K Sujin/DSG group. (And of course, there are many fans of K Sujin in Thailand who I have never met and who may have some significant divergences of opinion.) But I don't know who else you could be referring to. Are there any other non-meditating Buddhists? If you *are* referring to the no-controllers at DSG I would be interested to know what lack of unity you have noticed. Actually, this conversation began when James wrote to Suan: ------------ > As far as if K.S. is peddling her householder views against formal meditation through the members of this group, that is very hard to say. Nina represents her as saying one thing; Sarah represents her as saying something else; Ken H. represents her as saying something entirely different from the others. ------------ I replied to refute that (unfortunately referring to myself as a "beginner" in the process). I have never seen any significant divergence of opinions amongst these non-meditating Buddhists, have you? Ken H #75183 From: "Leo" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:17 am Subject: original relic 2 leoaive Hi I was reading that in Ancient India, Buddhist were respecting and venerating the Wheel. Today I was reading Digha Nikaya and it says about Treasure Wheel with One Thousand spokes.... I would not mind to have a wooden, one thousand spoke wheel with gemstones in that, to make it more like a treasure look. How many do you think gemsones would be ok for that? Any idea on what else can make it like treasure look? At the same time I want to have a natural wood look with a nice polish. I do not want to be too much on gold and all that. Any ideas on making that? Let me know. With Metta Leo #75184 From: "colette" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory like a Sieve . . . [Found, not Lost] ksheri3 Hi Geoff, Just to bring you up to speed here concerning my position, I hadn't pictured him as being that old but it seems that because of my depth in study, because of my continued research, because of my..., I always seem to get "the latest greatest" versions of instructors in these sights. <...> I generally don't have time to go deeper in my Google.com research than the 1st page but yesterday I thought I'd waste some time and give it a try and your post below confirms my suspicions. <....> And yes, I've spoken to him through email once or twice but really don't have time to waste chit chatting although I do think that chit chat can be an effective "steam release valve", concerning pressure and the human organism, etc. So, as to asking him direct questions then I'd fail the answers I seek are in his material already out there and truely I haven't even formulated the questions. I guess he's kindof like A.C.Muller, et al, where these things are in my alaya-vijnana or should I say super-sub-consciousness, I know they are there, it just takes time and consistent persistent working the system to percalate them, the questions, to the surface. This type of thing happens all the time for me, especially in Western systems particularly the kaballah. Thanx for you input. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Geoff Morrison wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > Professor Ron(ald) Epstein is now retired from San > Francisco State University's Department of Philosophy. <...> #75185 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Memory like a Sieve . . . [Found, not Lost] sarahprocter... Hi Geoff M (Zorro* & Colette), Thx for helping out in the Lost & Found Dept here! And welcome to DSG too! I believe these are your first messages, although there are a few other Geoffs and Jeffs lurking around. At first I thought Colette might be thinking of an old active DSG (and now very lurking member), Robert Eptstein, but you clarify she has the right name. I see you have an interest in Sanskrit studies and prsumably are in the States- would you care to introduce yourself a little more? How about your interest in the Pali Tipitaka? What do you find of interest here? Sorry to be asking so many questions. Anyway, thx for helping out and look forward to more discussion with you. Metta, Sarah (back in Hong Kong....) *p.s Zorro, also welcome to DSG! Why not introduce yourself too! Do you have further comments on Nina's detailed response to you? ======= --- Geoff Morrison wrote: > Hi Colette, > > Professor Ron(ald) Epstein is now retired from San > Francisco State University's Department of Philosophy. <...> #75186 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:29 am Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) scottduncan2 Dear Nina (and Andrew), Thanks for your comments: N: "...First the Buddha asks Raahula what a mirror is for. For reflection. The Dhamma is like a mirror. It is not just thinking, but reflection with awareness..." Scott: In the Paa.li sutta, this is phrased: "...Ta.m kimma~n~nasi raahula kimatthiyo aadaasoti. Paccavekkhanattho bhanteti..." Scott: Paccavekkhana is not just thinking, as you note. I see where it refers to a 'reviewing' or a going over something a second time. I see how 'reflection' is given as one of the functions of pa~n~na (Dhammasa"ngani). I'm assuming that this too has to arise and cannot be directed. In Atthasaalinii it is said: "'Reflection,' or, in whom it arises it makes him think of impermanence - this is 'reflection.'" Scott: Can you say more regarding this? Sincerely, Scott. #75187 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:26 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (64) nichiconn dear Friends, 11. Dvaadasakanipaato 1. Uppalava.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 17 txt: "Parici.n.no mayaa satthaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m; ohito garuko bhaaro, bhavanettisamuuhataa. "Yassatthaaya pabbajitaa, agaarasmaanagaariya.m; so me attho anuppatto, sabbasa.myojanakkhayo. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. PRUITT: I have attended on the Teacher. I have done the Buddha's teaching. I have put down the heavy burden; everything that leads to renewed existence has been rooted out. The aim for which one goes forth from the home to the homeless state, that aim has been attained by me - all bonds are destroyed. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. aya.m pana therii yadaa bhagavaa saavatthinagaradvaare yamakapaa.tihaariya.m kaatu.m ka.n.dambarukkhamuula.m upaga~nchi, tadaa satthaara.m upasa"nkamitvaa vanditvaa evamaaha- "aha.m, bhante, paa.tihaariya.m karissaami, yadi bhagavaa anujaanaatii"ti siihanaada.m nadi; satthaa ida.m kaara.na.m a.t.thuppatti.m katvaa jetavanamahaavihaare ariyaga.namajjhe nisinno pa.tipaa.tiyaa bhikkhuniyo thaanantare .thapento ima.m theri.m iddhimantiina.m agga.t.thaane thapesi; saa jhaanasukhena phalasukhena nibbaanasukhena ca viitinaamentii Then this therii approached the Teacher when he went to the foot of the mango tree at the gates of the city of Saavatthi to perform the Twin Marvel, and she paid homage to him, saying, "Venerable sir, I will perform a marvel if the Blessed One permits me." And she roared the lion's roar. The Teacher, when he was seated in the midst of a group of noble ones in the great monastery at the Jeta Grove, taking this matter as the occasion for placing the bhikkhuniis in order, placed this therii in the foremost position of those possessing supernormal powers. Then she spent her time in the happiness of the absorption states, in the happiness of the fruition states, and in the happiness of quenching. ===tbc, connie #75188 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/14/07 12:28:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ---------- > KH: >>From my > > >observations, the only thing that unites formal meditators is that > >they formally meditate. > > Howard: > Likewise for those who do not meditate. > ---------- > > Ha ha, I walked into that. :-) > > At the risk of sounding like a bad loser, however, I must disagree. > The non-meditators are a tiny minority in the Buddhist world, and > they are as thick as thieves. I know of no other group of people who > are so consistent (so uniform) in their interpretation of the Dhamma. > > Perhaps you are not referring specifically to the K Sujin/DSG group. > (And of course, there are many fans of K Sujin in Thailand who I have > never met and who may have some significant divergences of opinion.) > But I don't know who else you could be referring to. Are there any > other non-meditating Buddhists? ------------------------------------ Howard: I didn't have in mind only KS admirers. As for other non-meditating Buddhists, sure there are such, for all sorts of reasons. ----------------------------------- > > If you *are* referring to the no-controllers at DSG I would be > interested to know what lack of unity you have noticed. > > Actually, this conversation began when James wrote to Suan: > > ------------ > >As far as if K.S. is peddling her householder views against formal > meditation through the members of this group, that is very hard to > say. Nina represents her as saying one thing; Sarah represents her > as saying something else; Ken H. represents her as saying something > entirely different from the others. > ------------ > > I replied to refute that (unfortunately referring to myself as > a "beginner" in the process). I have never seen any significant > divergence of opinions amongst these non-meditating Buddhists, have > you? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Some differences, but not dramatic. (I do think you are unique, though, my friend! LOL!) ----------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > ==================== With metta, Howard #75190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:44 am Subject: Satipatthana as island of refuge. nilovg Dear Tep, --------- There are two issues you raised : i) "The anaagaami has eradicated all attachment to sense objects and all aversion. In this sense he is perfect in samaadhi."; ii) "He does not necessarily master stages of jhaana." . The first issue is not clear to me without telling me what you mean by "samadhi". It seems to me you define "perfect samaadhi" in terms of the eradication of "all attachment to sense objects and all aversion". ------- N: He is by nature calm, free from the hindrances of sensedesire and illwill. Those who develop jhaana have to subdue these hindrances in concentrating on meditation subjects. For the non-returner there is no need to attain jhaana. He can be a sukha vipassaka. I quote an old post of mine: The Abhidhamma can throw more light on the matter of samatha and vipassana. The puggala pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma book on Human Types explains in 'by Threes', 15: N: the sotaapanna has fulfilled siila, he does not transgress the five precepts.The anaagami has fulfilled calm, because he has eradicated attachment to sense-pleasures. This is also the case if he has not developed jhaana. By nature he is calm. The arahat has fulfilled sila, samaadhi and also perfect insight. --------- As to the question: should everybody develop jhana: see the same book, the fours, 26: After this a person who attains both and a person who attains neither are mentioned. Here we see that by sukkha vipassana enlightenment can be attained. All arahats have eradicated the defilements completely, but they have different degrees of qualities. Some have mastery of all jhanas and also the four discriminations, some have mastery of all jhanas but are not endowed with the dircriminations, some are sukkha vipassaka. ****** T: The second issue is about the role of jhaana in the anaagaami's attainment. By saying that anagamis are "perfect in siila and samadhi (both 4 ruupa- and 4 aruupa-jhaanas)" I was only partially correct, since I only talked about the attainment of cessation through the eight attainments. Vism. XXIII, 18, p. 731 : " No ordinary men, no stream-enterers or once-returners, and no non-returners and Arahants who are bare insight workers attain it. But both non-returners and those with cankers destroyed(Arahants) who are obtainers of the eight attainments attain it." ------- N: That is right. Only those who also developed jhaana can attain cessation. Nina. #75191 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:43 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Howard, > They are not rupas "of a river". They are sights seen by me, odors > smelled by me, sounds heard by me, water-element felt by me. They > are rupas that are objects within my mindstream UPON which I > superimpose the concept/percept of "river". I make no assumption of > "external" rupas.The only rupas I experience and can know of are > elements of experience. I presume no other rupas than the > sensations within mindstreams. I forgot you have a special interpretation of rupas! I think that makes our discussion kind of off tangent. Sorry for that. Swee Boon #75192 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:44 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 10, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, The javana-cittas arising in one process of citta are of the same jåti, but the plane of consciousness is not always the same. This happens in the process when someone develops samatha and attains jhåna, and also in the process when someone develops vipassanå and attains enlightenment. As regards the attainment of jhåna, jhånacittas do not have sense objects, they are not kåmåvacara cittas, cittas of the sense sphere. But in the process when jhåna is attained there are first kåmåvacara cittas which are, in the case of non-arahats, mahå-kusala cittas which experience the meditation subject through the mind- door. Each one of the mahå-kusala cittas is repetition-condition for the next one and the last mahå-kusala citta in that process conditions the jhåna-citta, which is of a different plane of citta, rúpåvacara citta, by way of repetition-condition. When someone is not yet skilled, only one moment of jhåna-citta arises, but when he has become proficient there can be many moments of jhånacitta (Visuddhimagga IV, 78, and IV, 125). Each one of these jhånacittas conditions the next one by way of repetition-condition, except the last one in that process. In the process during which enlightenment is attained, there are first mahå-kusala cittas accompanied by paññå which clearly sees the reality appearing at that moment as impermanent, dukkha or anattå. One of these three characteristics of reality is at that moment penetrated by pañnnå. Each of these mahå-kusala cittas is repetition- condition for the next one. The last mahå-kusala-citta, the “change- of lineage”, arising before the magga-citta, the lokuttara kusala citta, experiences an object different from the preceding ones, namely nibbåna. The “change-of lineage”, which is kamåvacara citta, conditions the magga-citta by way of repetition-condition but the magga-citta itself is not repetition-condition for the phala-citta. The phala-citta is of a different jåti, the jåti which is vipåka. The phala-citta which is the result of the magga-citta and immediately succeeds it, performs the function of javana, but it is not repetition-condition. When we develop vipassanå, awareness of nåma and rúpa occurs during the moments of javana. Just as one by applying oneself again and again to study becomes more proficient in understanding texts, evenso can there be more proficiency in understanding realities when there is repeated application of understanding during the moments of javana- cittas. Each one of these conditions the next one by repetition- condition and in this way understanding can be accumulated. ******* Nina. #75193 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:29 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Tep, > I am also very happy to concur with you on the necessity of the 1st > jhana (i.e. as the strong-enough concentration base to support non- > distracted contemplation of the khandhas, for example). My reason > is as follows: successful development of the four frames of > reference will lead to the 1st and 2nd jhaanas (MN 125 and SN > 47.10) and further to the 3rd and 4th jhana via samma-samaadhi (see > MN 117, DN 22). I too am very happy to concur with you on this! :-) Swee Boon #75194 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:53 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, When it was already dark we went three times around the Stupa. Afterwards we had a Dhamma discussion in the hotel in Benares. We spoke about the cycle of birth and death, about saÿsåra, which term means “going around”. In many lives we did not know the dhamma, the reality, which appears. Seeing arises and then falls away, and there is nothing left. Hearing arises and then falls away, there is nothing left. In each life citta, consciousness, arises and falls away. The dukkha in the cycle of birth and death is the arising and falling away of realities. The Buddha said in his first sermon that the five khandhas are dukkha. Rúpakkhandha, physical phenomena, vedanåkkhandha, the khandha of feelings, saññåkkhandha, the khandha of perception or memory, sankhårakkhandha, the khandha of “formations” or “activities” (all mental factors, cetasikas, except feeling and perception), and viññåùakkhandha, the khandha of consciousness (all cittas) arise and then fall away immediately, and therefore they are dukkha. The Buddha preached many suttas in the Jeta Grove, near Såvatthí, where he stayed nineteen rainy seasons [1]. Anåthapiùèika who wanted to offer this Grove to the Buddha, had to buy it from Prince Jeta. He had to cover the area with pieces of gold, but he did not have enough gold to cover one small spot near the gateway and then Prince Jeta said that he wanted to offer this spot. There are many excavations at the sites where the dwelling-places of the Buddha and his disciples were. There is also a Bodhi-tree planted by Ånanda. We read in the Commentary to the “Kålinga-Bodhi-Jåtaka” (IV, no. 479) that Ånanda said to the Buddha that while he was travelling the people who used to visit him and pay respect to him had no place where they could show their reverence. Therefore Ånanda asked permission to plant a seed of the Great Bodhi-tree near the gateway. The Buddha gave his permission and Anåthapindika planted it. It grew up as soon as it was planted and became a huge tree. The tree is known by the name of Ånanda’s Bo-Tree. ---------- 1. During the rainy season the monks did not travel, but stayed in one dwelling place. ******* Nina. #75195 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:53 am Subject: The Necessity of the Buddha's Guidance upasaka_howard Hi, all - In the Nagara Sutta the Buddha taught the following: ______________________________________________ "It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. He would go to address the king or the king's minister, saying, 'Sire, you should know that while traveling along a wilderness track I saw an ancient path... I followed it... I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital... complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. Sire, rebuild that city!' The king or king's minister would rebuild the city, so that at a later date the city would become powerful, rich, & well-populated, fully grown & prosperous. "In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path."Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings." I looked this up and sent it on to the list to remind us of the need to learn what is what from one who knows what is what: the Buddha. What led me to think about that was my reading a part of a work on self-cultivation written in 1740, by an Italian rabbi, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto. The work is entitled "The Path of the Righteous." In one of several chapters dealing with what the author calls "watchfulness," and which amounts to right effort/guarding the senses - vigilantly discriminating wholesome from unwholesome, the rabbi includes the following paragraph, which I write out here: <> With metta, Howard #75196 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:23 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Swee, - Thank you for the one-line reply which does not occur often. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > I am also very happy to concur with you on the necessity of the 1st > > jhana (i.e. as the strong-enough concentration base to support non- > > distracted contemplation of the khandhas, for example). My reason > > is as follows: successful development of the four frames of > > reference will lead to the 1st and 2nd jhaanas (MN 125 and SN > > 47.10) and further to the 3rd and 4th jhana via samma-samaadhi (see > > MN 117, DN 22). > > I too am very happy to concur with you on this! :-) > > Swee Boon > Tep === #75197 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:33 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana as island of refuge. indriyabala Dear Nina (and Swee Boon), - I appreciate your excellent reply in message #75190 : N: "He is by nature calm, free from the hindrances of sensedesire and illwill. Those who develop jhaana have to subdue these hindrances in concentrating on meditation subjects. For the non-returner there is no need to attain jhaana. He can be a sukha vipassaka." T: In case of a virtuous Buddhist who is normally free from the hindrances, such as sense-desire & ill-will, I believe he still needs to develop right concentration (samma-samadhi as defined in DN 22). Thank you for the quote from an old post of yours. [>Nina: "The never-retuner-such is the person who fulfills the moral laws and completes the practice of concentration, but incompletely practises insight."] T: Even after he has become a non-returner, the developed samma- samaadhi (via practicing concentration) is a conditioned dhamma which is not permanent. So, why is there "no need to attain jhaana" again and again? .......... N: "The anaagami has fulfilled calm, because he has eradicated attachment to sense-pleasures. This is also the case if he has not developed jhaana. By nature he is calm." T: I see. So, that is what you meant by "The anaagaami has eradicated all attachment to sense objects and all aversion. In this sense he is perfect in samaadhi." (message #75162) .......... N: "Here we see that by sukkha vipassana enlightenment can be attained. "All arahats have eradicated the defilements completely, but they have different degrees of qualities. Some have mastery of all jhanas and also the four discriminations, some have mastery of all jhanas but are not endowed with the discriminations, some are sukkha vipassaka." T: Thank you very much for the information. Was it (the above passage) taken from "The puggala pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma book on Human Types" ? .......... [ T: The following is your reply to my quote from the Vism about "the attainment of cessation through the eight attainments" by a certain kind of anaagami puggala.] N: That is right. Only those who also developed jhaana can attain cessation. T: Can the arahants who are sukkha-vipassaka attain "cessation" without the mastery of all jhanas? Or, is there another kind of cessation that does not require the mastery of all jhaanas? (BTW I ask these questions because I do not know the answers.) I'll be grateful for your answer. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > --------- > > There are two issues you raised : > > i) "The anaagaami has eradicated all attachment to sense objects and > all aversion. In this sense he is perfect in samaadhi."; > ii) "He does not necessarily master stages of jhaana." . > #75198 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:27 pm Subject: Not Hard to Accept (Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Walking) corvus121 Dear Nina and Scott Thank you for your kind replies. > N: "...First the Buddha asks Raahula what a mirror is for. For > reflection. The Dhamma is like a mirror. It is not just thinking, but > reflection with awareness..." > > Scott: In the Paa.li sutta, this is phrased: > > "...Ta.m kimma~n~nasi raahula kimatthiyo aadaasoti. Paccavekkhanattho > bhanteti..." > > Scott: Paccavekkhana is not just thinking, as you note. I see where > it refers to a 'reviewing' or a going over something a second time. I > see how 'reflection' is given as one of the functions of pa~n~na > (Dhammasa"ngani). > > I'm assuming that this too has to arise and cannot be directed. In > Atthasaalinii it is said: > > "'Reflection,' or, in whom it arises it makes him think of > impermanence - this is 'reflection.'" Andrew: I am a little confused, too. Are thinking and reflection two different dhammas or the same dhamma but associated with different sets of cetasikas? The last quote above seems to suggest that reflection is citta with vicara + vitakka and with anicca as object? So it couldn't be satipatthana (as anicca isn't a dhamma). Many thanks Andrew #75199 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:32 pm Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 10, no 5. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, A question regarding: N: "...When we develop vipassanaa, awareness of naama and ruupa occurs during the moments of javana. Just as one by applying oneself again and again to study becomes more proficient in understanding texts, evenso can there be more proficiency in understanding realities when there is repeated application of understanding during the moments of javana-cittas. Each one of these conditions the next one by repetition-condition and in this way understanding can be accumulated." Scott: Could you please elaborate on the above? My understanding, given the above explanation, is that at each of the seven moments of javana, 'awareness' (and I'm reading pa~n~naa here), arises? And is it here, during these moments of javana, that lasting mental development (bhaavanaa) occurs? Is it fair to suggest that the javana process functions to consolidate or strengthen pa~n~naa? Sincerely, Scott.