#76400 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:09 am Subject: Re: "there is no ‘personÂ?Equot; - "The controversy on ‘personÂ?Eis e. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > James: That's okay; I'm sure it wasn't intentional. > > > > > I see according to your analysis of other quotes that Buddhagosa > > apparently thought beings have a real existence after all. I am > > surprised to hear that as it goes against so much Dhamma in many > > sections of the Tipitaka. > > James: Well, I am actually surprised that you agree with me! I think > that this is the first time an Abhidhammakian has agreed with me about > anything!! I'm speechless! ;-)) > > However, now that you have agreed with me, I want to change gears and > argue a bit the other side: Buddhaghosa didn't believe that beings > have a "real existence". LOL! Yes, if you weren't confused before, > you definitely are going to be confused now! ;-)) > > In Vism. IX, where Buddhaghosa is describing the practice of > loving-kindness (metta) he writes: > > "Herein, all signifies inclusion without exception. Beings (satta): > they are held (satta), gripped (visatta) by desire and greed for the > aggregates beginning with materiality, thus they are beings (satta)." > IX, 53. > Buddhaghosa then goes on to explain that Buddhas and arahants, even > though they no longer have clinging to the aggregates, are still > referred to as "beings" because they have the physical appearance of > beings (but they are not really beings). > > But, in the "highest sense" there is no "ME", and > I hope to realize that one day and be released from suffering. > However, pretending that the physical and mental manifestation > referred to as "James" doesn't exist isn't going to get me there. The > change comes from the inside out, not from the outside in (if you > catch my drift ;-)). +++++++ Dear James Now I am surprised. I think that we agree. Robert #76401 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Purification of View, to Han. hantun1 Dear Nina and Lodewijk, Thank you very much, Nina, for your kind note. I was about to leave the arena of “no-person”. I have told Tep that from now on, I will not read or write any message on “no-person.” It pains me more when someone said “no Buddha” than “no-Han.” I am like a person with spilt personality. It is not that I completely reject “no-person.” I like Vajiraa sutta, for example. When someone abuses me I used to consider that he is not abusing Han Tun, and anger dies away. But when I hear it all the time, I am put off (if I may use your expression). But Nina and Lodewijk, I like both of you very much, you two are so kind and I have highest respect for both of you. So I cannot say “no” to you, Nina. I will think about what you have written and try to follow your advice little by little. With my warmest personal regards, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > > Op 15-sep-2007, om 2:43 heeft han tun het volgende > geschreven: > > > In Milindapa~nha, translated by Mendis, Part IV, > No. > > 26, King Milinda said: “Revered Naagasena, you > say: #76402 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ¡person¢" - "The controversy on ¡person¢ is ended" sarahprocter... Dear DC & all, I'm appreciating all your contributions with little explanations of Pali terms as well. I apologise for often being slow in my responses, like this one. --- DC Wijeratna wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Just for fun. > > Did Buddha ever claim 'omniscient knowledge'? .... S: You mean you don't accept Sariputta's word in the Patisambhidamagga???? I agree that usually the detailed descriptions of the Buddha's knowledge are given in commentaries and the Abhidhamma. But do you seriously have any doubt about it? Here, we have the Buddha's actual words from AN: AN bk of 4s, (PTS translations)23 'The World': "Monks, whatsoever in the whole world, with the world of Maaras, Brahmaas, together with the host of recluses and braahmins, of devas and mankind, is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, searched into, pondered over by the mind, - all that is fully comprehended by a Tathaagata. That is why he is called 'Tathaagata.'............a Tathaagata is conqueror, unconquered, all-seeing, omnipotent. Therefore is he called 'Tathaagata.' " The next one - 24, 'Kaa.laka.'- has this same passage. .... Metta, Sarah ========= #76403 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (15) hantun1 Dear Nina (Tep), I cannot say for other people, but most of us in Burma, we attach high priority to siila. Siila is the foundation, and siila is almost everything. Most of the elders in Burma go to the temple, observe five or eight precepts, listen to dhamma talks, and do some work for the temple. That is their usual practice, centered around the observance of precepts. Here again, like “no-person”, I do not wish to enter into debate. I think it is the individual decision how he wants to go about. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han (and Tep), > This quote clarifies that there cannot be firm siila > without > pa~n~naa. #76404 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (15) nilovg Dear Han, I respect your decision. I understand that you are disinclined to debates. I also have a feeling that debates, especially when they go on and on, are too much. Nina. Op 15-sep-2007, om 13:33 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Here again, like “no-person”, I do not wish to enter > into debate. I think it is the individual decision how > he wants to go about. #76405 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ÁÑerson¡¦quot; - "The controversy on ÁÑerson¡¦is ended" sarahprocter... Dear DC, --- DC Wijeratna wrote: > > 1. I couldn't locate the first reference: SN I.25 > .... > S: I apologise for not being clearer: > > "Though the wise one has transcended the conceived, > He still might say, 'I speak,' > He might say too, 'They speak to me.' > Skilful, knowing the world's parlance, > He uses such terms as mere expressions. " SN 1:25 > > This is in Samyutta Nikaya 1, Devatasamyutta, Ch 3,A Sword, #25 'The > Arahant'. I was using B.Bodhi's translation and way of referring to > suttas > in English. > > Here is a further note to it from the commentary: > > [Note: Vohaaramattena so vohareyya. > Spk: “Although arahants have abandoned talk that implies belief in a > self,they do not violate conventional discourse by saying, ‘The > aggregates > eat,the aggregates sit, the aggregates’ bowl, the aggregates’ robe’; for > no one would understand them.”} > > > DC: Many thanks, I located that. This is how I understand that sutta. A > deity poses the question to the Buddha: Why does an arahant use > expressions with "I" or "me". The Buddha tells him that: that is to > conform to the world's usage. The world here implies the world according > to the vision of a puthujjana. .... S: I understand 'the world's usage' or 'conventional discourse' (vohaara) to just refer to common language which the Buddha and arahants also used. It can be used with the vision of an ariyan or the vision of the puthujjana. .... >That is one who has I, me or mine. ... S: On it's own, the use of common language, say, talk about computers and people, doesn't imply right or wrong view. It's the understanding that counts. ..... > An > arahant has a different vision. What that vision is we don't know. We > have no experience of that. .... S: Well, we do read about it and begin to understand the Dhamma. The more the Dhamma is understood, the closer we come to understanding the arahant's vision, however far off that maybe! ... >There is another little point the Pali word > 'matta' is difficult to translate. It has the sense of only, measure, > confine to etc. .... S: So can we say 'Vohaaramattena' means 'only' or 'confined to conventional (speech)' or 'mere expressions' (as given in the translation above), as opposed to 'ultimate' (paramattha)? ... >The word kusalo seem to mean the arahant rather than > skilful. Thus we can't really make any inferences about paramattha from > this passage. .... S: I don't quite follow you. I think the verse clearly means that the arahant skillfully uses the language, but without any illusion of 'bowl', 'robe, and 'people' being anything other than conventional terms. There's no misunderstanding of the khandhas at such times. .... > > 2. Second reference [Po.t.thapaada] is a little complex. <...> > S: > >"....these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations > in common use in the world, which the Tathagata uses without > misapprehending them," (DN 9, Potthapada Sutta: States of consciousness, > 53, Walshe > trans.) > > The footnote (224) to M.Walshe’s translation adds: > > "...In MA (ad MN 5: Anagana Sutta). the following verse is quoted...: > “Two > truths the Buddha, best of all who speak, declared: Conventional and > ultimate - no third can be. Terms agreed by usage of the world; Words of > ultimate significance are true In terms of dhammas. Thus the Lord, a > Teacher, he Who’s skilled in this world’s speech , can use it, and not > lie.” > > DC: This verse is not found in the sutta pi.taka, I think. .... S: No, it's in the commentary, but the commentary spells out what is intended in the sutta. This is exactly the meaning, as I understand, of the verse just discussed: "Though the wise one has transcended the conceived, He still might say, 'I speak,' He might say too, 'They speak to me.' Skilful, knowing the world's parlance, He uses such terms as mere expressions. " SN 1:25 .... <...> > Rob Ed: “Are you perhaps referring to paramattha sacca (truth in the > highest sense)? If so, I would agree that this term is absent in the > Suttas, though I would suggest that the notion is present. That is to > say, > the idea that something may be true conventionally but not ultimately is > inferrable from the Suttas, even though it is expressed in different > terms. > > DC: The second sentence is the problem here. It is an opinion > (inferable) of the writer. What is meant by paramattha sacca? To me > 'truth in the highest sense' is not very meaningful. How do you > interpret it? .... S: Cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana are paramattha dhammas, paramattha sacca. The Dhamma is about khandhas, dhatus, namas and rupas - all paramattha sacca. When something is said to be 'true conventionally but not ultimately' and 'inferrable from the Suttas...', again this means just what is said in the verse and commentary notes above about the use of conventional terms as used by all. .... <...> > DC: Cittas, cetasikas are all evanascent. Are such things part of > ultimate reality? In what sense is nibbana real. .... S: Cittas and cetasikas are ultimate realities (in the plural). Seeing is real now. It arises, it passes away, it has a characteristic which can be known. It experiences a visible object. Visible object is real. Again, it has a characteristic, it can be directly known. So too for hearing, hardness, like, dislike or thinking. However, 'computer', 'chair' and 'person' are ideas, however well-founded they may be. When we look at the computer screen now, what is seen is visible object. When we touch the keyboard, what is experienced throught he body-sense is hardness or heat. Nibbana is also a reality. It has its characteristic which is directly experienced by lokuttara cittas. It is not a concept at such times. It is not imagined. Of course, now as we talk, there are concepts about these realities, so it's important to differentiate the reality from the concept. .... <...> > DC: I think, I have raised some issues above. > > In your Pali studies at the Uni of Kelaniya, do you study the Abhidhamma > or just the suttas? I'd be interested to hear more about it. > > We study both abhidhamma, and suttas also the commentaries. I personally > do not attach much importance to abhidhamma because there is a general > consensus that abhidhamma pi.taka is a later creation. But I have a > different position. Today only two recensions of the Abhidhamma Pi.taka > exist. Theravaada and Sarvastivaada. They are completerly different. So > I disregard both. It is not possible that the Buddha preached two > different abhidhammas. .... S: No. ... >By the way, scholars do not agree even on the > meaning of the word Abhidhamma. The word Abhidhamma occurs only at two > places in the Pali canon--of course sans Abhidhamma Pi.taka. I really > consider Abhidhamma in the same category as Maadhyaika, Yogaacaara or > Mahaayana. .... S: When you refer to the Pali canon, I think it's very clear that this (the Pali canon) includes the Ti-pitaka. The Tipitaka includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I personally think you are missing out on a lot if you disregard this essential component! We've had many discussions on the origins of the Abhidhamma and the various references to Abhidhamma in the suttas and Vinaya. If you have a chance one day, please take a look in "Useful Posts" in the files section under 'Abhidhamma -origins'. As for the 'gerneral consensus', I'm not so sure. The 'general consensus' of the ancient commentaries certainly includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka as being included in the texts recited at the First Council, albeit in a different format. I'll look forward to reading your further comments and contributions, DC. You'll have noted that almost every topic is a 'Pandora's Box' here:-)). We can certainly put aside this last issue if you'd prefer. I think the discussion about paramattha dhammas is the most important, but I prefer to look for assistance to the Abhidhamma and commentaries as well as the suttas. Many here, like you, prefer to stick to the suttas. That's fine! Metta, Sarah ========== #76406 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (15) indriyabala Dear Nina (Andrew, Han, Scott, Colette, etc.), - > N: > Dear Han (and Tep), > This quote clarifies that there cannot be firm siila without > pa~n~naa. T: So far my concern has been mainly about the higher pa~n~naa on the Path that only arises when the siila support is at least at the Sotapanna level. N: We can, as children, just follow what a teacher says: do not commit evil deeds. But, firm conviction of the benefit of kusala has to come from within, in other words, from understanding kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala. T: But at that level most kids are not able to or not interested in having "firm siila" anyway, let alone expecting them to have pa~n~naa that understand siila. IMO most teachers have failed to educate children about siila. .................. N: I think of Andrew's question: his sila is not well established. Should he wait with the development of understanding of the different cittas? Then he can wait for aeons. T: Right, it is a wrong & long waiting. Tep == #76407 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:43 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: Tep: "...I think it is just a personal preference to say 'The begining of direct knowledge, the first insight of an ariyan, is when there is Stream entry. Stream-entry marks the complete transformation of worldlings' wisdom after the first three fetters have been cut off'. It is the same problem of shifting the origin on the XY-plane; the shifting does not change the equation. FYI I do not consider cula-sotapatti as the 'complete transformation' yet, since s/he has not entered the Stream." Scott: We are dealing with the statement, "The lesser pa~n~na that knows 'the difference between naama & ruupa' defines cula-sotapanna (See the Vism, XIX, 27)." We have clarified that the lesser sotapanna is pa~n~naa at the level of 'paccaya-pariggaha-~naa.na', which is 'discerning the conditions for naama and ruupa'. As for cula-sotapanna, Ven. Dhammanando wrote a summary (Message #69946) regarding sotaapattiphalasacchakiriyaaya pa.tipanno ('practising for the realization of the fruition of stream-attainer'). I think this refers to cula-sotapanna but am not entirely sure. I am not sure of this either, but I think that, as you say, cula-sotapanna has not 'entered the stream' but is (as clarified by Ven. Dhammanando) "one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit..." (~Naa.namoli's rendering). Corrections required, but until then, this would imply that magga- and phala-citta of the Path have not arisen and that cula-sotapanna is pa~n~naa to the degree of strength which allows a penetration of 'the conditions for naama and ruupa' only. This seems only to strengthen the assertion that one need not have attained the Path, i.e. have had the magga- and phala-citta arise and cease, in order for pa~n~naa to develop to higher degrees. Here there are the first two stages of vipassanaa, then, which are a high degree of developed pa~n~naa but not yet to the level of realising the Path. 1)When you refer to 'pa~n~naa, to what do you refer? 2)Do you refer to the cetasika? 3)Do you refer to 'wisdom' in the sense of something that someone has, such as 'a person learning more and more'? T: "1) - 3) To me 'pa~n~naa' means understanding. Yes, it is a cetasika...When we first learn an unfamiliar subject, we do not yet understand it. Once we understand it thoroughly, we begin to develop knowledge. With more learning through experiencing, full understanding (parinna) then follows." Scott: Do you concede that it is pa~n~naa which knows and understands and thereby develops? We seem to be building a case for a sort of intellectual understanding, conditioned by pa~n~naa at lower levels of development and then, apparently beginning with the second stage of vipassanaa, the development of pa~n~naa is stronger and penetrates deeper. 4)What is it that the ladder stands for in the simile of the ladder? 5)Do you think there is convention pa~n~naa and paramattha pa~n~naa? T: "4) & 5) The ladder stands for 'patipadaa'. I do not want to complicate everything by the 'convention' magnifying glass that you have -- i.e. exaggerating things unnecessarily. Is there a benefit from labelling it as 'convention pa~n~naa' or 'paramattha pa~n~naa'?" Scott: Yes, sorry. It was a typo I see: 'convention' should have read 'conventional'. I'm not sure why the designation 'exaggerating things unneccessarily' is used here when the reply is to your own statement: "...Conventional truth is a sacca about the real world that is obviously not the paramattha-dhamma world..." Here, the assertion seems to be that there is a way of knowing 'conventional truth' that accords with that level, and another way of knowing 'paramattha truth' according to that level. I wouldn't call this 'exaggeration' so much as 'needless bifurcation'. Hence the question, which I'll restate: Do you consider there to be a 'conventional pa~n~naa' for knowing 'conventional truth' and a 'paramattha pa~n~naa' for knowing 'paramattha truth'? I do not. This is why I said 'pa~n~naa is pa~n~naa'. Pa.tipadaa is often misunderstood to refer to deliberate practise. I think the development of kusala dhammas is not a unitary or linear development but occurs in a much more complex, non-linear fashion. T: "Scott (quoting Vism, XVIII): "After defining materiality-mentality thus according to its true nature, then in order to abandon this worldly designation of 'a being' and 'a person' more thoroughly, to surmount confusion about beings and to establish in his mind on the plane of non-confusion, he makes sure that the meaning defined, namely, 'This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, nor person' is confirmed by a number of suttas." "Did you read the above passage very carefully yourself ? I did. The important message is: indeed, there is this real world of beings, and there is the mentality-materiality-clinging that causes confusion -- i.e. a wrong view in the mind of the beholder. By re- conditioning one's perception with the right view, 'This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, nor person', he is free from such clinging. And he is freed from wrong self views, I tell you! The question 'Is there a self' or 'Is there no self' are extreme views (attanuditthi) that are conditioned by upadana in the khandhas." Scott: This last clause has been used frequently and I think incorrectly, as in the above case. Here the implication seems to be that since each question is an 'extreme view' then this must mean that there is a self or person, in this case until a certain rung of the ladder is reached. This is untenable. Let's agree to disagree on this point. This has been adequately answered elsewhere to my satisfaction. As to the careful reading, I'll stick to what is stated. The above assertion has gone beyond the quote. The phrase 'worldly designation' ought to stand on its own as a reference to a concept. As well, the phrase, 'This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being or person' is unequivocal. The fact of a clinging to concepts does not lend ultimate reality to the concepts. It is just clinging. T: "'Just as when a space is enclosed with timber and creepers and grass and clay, there comes to be the term "house", so too, when a space is enclosed with bones and sinews and flesh and skin, there comes to be the term "material form" (ruupa) (M.i,190)." Did you carefully read the above passage ? I did ! Yes, of course there are houses seen in this world (Have you not?). Yes, of course there are "bones and sinews and flesh and skin" in a human body -- the 'atta-patilaabha'[DN 9] that has materiality and consists of the four great entities and consumes physical food. But a wise man, one who is a disciple of the noble ones, who has the right view of the ariyans, is intent upon seeing/contemplating the component parts (bones and sinews and flesh and skin) in order to abandon the basis for the assumption 'this is what I am'. This right view is free from the upadanakkhandha. Some worldlings, however, are confused and they have jumped to the conclusion that there is no person outside the mind that has conceived 'beings'." Scott: Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. The above conclusion is a misunderstanding. As noted above, clinging does not imbue its objects with reality. T: " ... yet in the ultimate sense, when each component is examined, there is no being as a basis for the assumption 'I am' or 'I'; in the ultimate sense there is only mentality-materiality. The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision." Yes, definitely: in "the ultimate sense" there is only mentality- materiality. Yes, the vision of one who sees it this way is called correct vision (yathabhuta-dassana) -- it is a cula sotapanna's vision." Scott: Again the untenable assumption that it is the 'vision' that creates the view. The cart is before the horse. Hoping that wasn't too hard on you, Tep, I am yours, sincerely, Scott. #76408 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:55 am Subject: Re: Purification of View indriyabala Hi Andrew, - I am honored by your inquiry. I remeber that we discussed the same issue in April 2006 and later; the result was not positive. But I hope you may benefit more from the discussion this time. >Andrew: I don't feel that I have perfected sila. I am therefore interested in the practical consequences of your reading of the sequential development of the path. .......... Tep: I am cautiously delighted to know that you started at "the sila stage in the sequence". IF what you said is true (i.e. you are not kidding me), then it means two important things: 1) You see sila as the foundation of the Buddhist practice, and 2) you see a sequence of practice that progresses from sila to the higher-up dhammas. Regardless of your real intention, I am going to answer your inquiry with the best of my knowledge (but that may be worth to you only one Japanese Yen). .......... A: As I am at the sila stage in the sequence, I should not have any regard to those parts of the Tipitika that relate to the subsequent stages. After all, they are currently irrelevant to me, are they not? T: Selectively, some of them are relevant at the sila-dominant stage. New Buddhist monks focused on the Dhamma-vinaya (Patimokha Sila) during their early stage of monkhood for the same reason. Sotapannas are known for having "perfect" sila, and Arahants for perfect wisdom. Of course sila at the Arahant level is the purest, so the word "perfect" only emphasizes the focus of the first stage of the Holiness. AN 9.1 below tells us what sequential practice for self- awakening consists of. Anguttara Nikaya 9.1 Sambodhi Sutta: Self-awakening --------------------------------------------------- "Monks, when a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will be virtuous, will dwell restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity, and will train himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will get to hear at will, easily & without difficulty, talk that is truly sobering and conducive to the opening of awareness, i.e., talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, on virtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will keep his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities, and for taking on skillful mental qualities -- steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. "When a monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable comrades, it is to be expected that he will be discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. "And furthermore, monks, when the monk is established in these five qualities, there are four additional qualities he should develop: He should develop [contemplation of] the unattractive so as to abandon lust. He should develop good will so as to abandon ill will. He should develop mindfulness of in-&-out breathing so as to cut off distractive thinking. He should develop the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.' For a monk perceiving inconstancy, the perception of not-self is made firm. One perceiving not-self attains the uprooting of the conceit, 'I am' -- Unbinding in the here & now." .................. A: I cannot have any hope of "tackling them" while I remain with unperfected sila. There can be no development of wisdom by, for example, examining the dukkha involved in breaches of sila etc. etc. The sequence must be followed and I control the following of the sequence. When I say "I", I mean of course that thing called "Andrew" that exists over and above the mentality-materiality that the Buddha called "the all". Have I got this right? T: We see things differently, Andrew. I prefer to practice according to the Noble Eightfold Path. How does one practice the NEP? Sambodhi Sutta clearly states that the training rules and Patimokha are the very first emphasis for new monks. For lay Buddhists, who have mundane right view (see MN 117) and right livelihood, they will keep the Five (or Eight) Precepts and perfect them so that they have non- remorse. Non-remorse then supports gladness and other dhammas that, in turn, support development of right mindfulness and right concentration. That's how one practices the Noble Eightfold Path! Of course, you may choose to contemplate naama & ruupa or the five aggregates of clinging, while your sila is "unperfect". But the development of wisdom without the solid-enough sila suport (right action, right speech, right livelihood) does not lead to Sotapatti- magga for Path entry. .............. MahaKotthita: "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?" Sariputta: "A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry." [SN 22.122] ............ T: As the above sutta quote indicates, virtuousness (sila) is the solid support for pa~n~na that penetrates the Path. But you have the right to disagree (again, like you were in 2006). Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > The sequential development of the path, or patipada, is clearly > > supported by the Vism as well many suttas. We discussed this topic > > many times before. Take the Sekha Patipada Sutta and Dantabhumi > > Sutta as examples. Show me that these two suttas support Howard's > > spiral model. I am going to give you a reward, if you can show me so ! > > Hi Tep > I don't feel that I have perfected sila. I am therefore interested in > the practical consequences of your reading of the sequential > development of the path. #76409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:58 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 14, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The sobhana jhåna-factors have each their own function in inhibiting the hindrances so that calm can be developed. Vitakka, applied thinking, “touches” the meditation subject; it thinks of it in the right way. Vicåra, sustained thinking, keeps the citta “anchored” on the meditation subject, reviewing it over and over again so that citta will remain fixed on the meditation subject. Vitakka inhibits the hindrances of sloth and torpor and vicåra inhibits the hindrance of doubt. Píti, enthusiasm, takes an interest in the meditation subject so that one is not bored with it. It inhibits the hindrance which is ill will. Sukha which is developed in samatha is happy feeling concerning the meditation subject. It inhibits the hindrances which are restlessness and regret (uddhacca and kukkucca). Upekkhå is not mentioned among the jhåna-factors which should be developed in samatha for the attainment of jhåna, but in the fifth stage of rúpa- jhåna [1] there is upekkhå instead of sukha. Samådhi, concentration, developed in samatha, is right concentration on the meditation subject. It inhibits the hindrance which is sensuous desire (kåma- cchandha). As calm grows samådhi also develops. There is miccha- samådhi, wrong concentration, and sammå-samådhi, right concentration. If there is no paññå which knows precisely when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta, wrong concentration can be taken for right concentration. Someone may mistakenly believe that there is calm when he just sits and for example looks for a long time at a kasina (disk) which is among the meditation subjects of samatha. Instead of true calm which is wholesome there is clinging to quietness. Not merely intellectual understanding of the jhåna-factors is needed for the development of calm but there must also be right understanding which discerns precisely their different characteristics. When one underestimates the difficulty of the development of jhåna there is bound to be wrong concentration. It is difficult to distinguish between different jhåna-factors such as vitakka and vicåra. While we are thinking, there are vitakka and vicåra performing their functions, they arise together; but do we discern their different characteristics? Do we know the characteristic of píti, rapture, and can we distinguish it from sukha, pleasant feeling? When we find out for ourselves how difficult it is to distinguish between these jhåna-factors, we will understand that a high degree of paññå is needed for the development of the jhåna-factors. ---------------- 1. Fine material jhåna. The meditation subjects of rúpa-jhåna are still dependent on materiality, whereas the meditation subjects of arúpa-jhåna, immaterial jhåna, are not. ******* Nina. #76410 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:16 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Scott, (and others)- Thank you for giving me a lot of fun today; the fun is more intensified near the end. Scott: I am not sure of this either, but I think that, as you say, cula-sotapanna has not 'entered the stream' but is (as clarified by Ven. Dhammanando) "one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit..." (~Naa.namoli's rendering). Corrections required, but until then, this would imply that magga- and phala-citta of the Path have not arisen and that cula-sotapanna is pa~n~naa to the degree of strength which allows a penetration of 'the conditions for naama and ruupa' only. T: That's fine with me. .......... Scott: Do you concede that it is pa~n~naa which knows and understands and thereby develops? We seem to be building a case for a sort of intellectual understanding, conditioned by pa~n~naa at lower levels of development and then, apparently beginning with the second stage of vipassanaa, the development of pa~n~naa is stronger and penetrates deeper. T: No, I do not see it that way. Does pa~n~naa develop pa~n~naa with no supporting conditions? That is ridiculous ! A far better way to explain the development of pa~n~naa is given in Howard's message # 76374. 1.Virtuous ways of conduct -> 2. Non-remorse -> 3. Gladness -> 4. Joy -> 5. Serenity -> 6. Happiness -> 7. Concentration of the mind -> 8. Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> 9. Revulsion and dispassion -> 10. Knowledge and vision of liberation Then the process renews itself, restarting with higher virtuous conducts, and so on, until arahantship. .......... Scott: I'm not sure why the designation 'exaggerating things unneccessarily' is used here when the reply is to your own statement: "...Conventional truth is a sacca about the real world that is obviously not the paramattha-dhamma world..." T: By conceiving/imagining anythings other than the ultimate truths as "un-truth" is an exaggeration that is concocted by the biased view (this only is right, all other things are not). ......... Scott: Hence the question, which I'll restate: Do you consider there to be a 'conventional pa~n~naa' for knowing 'conventional truth' and a 'paramattha pa~n~naa' for knowing 'paramattha truth'? I do not. This is why I said 'pa~n~naa is pa~n~naa'. Pa.tipadaa is often misunderstood to refer to deliberate practise. I think the development of kusala dhammas is not a unitary or linear development but occurs in a much more complex, non-linear fashion. T: Patipadaa is often misunderstood to be the same as 'do nothing, the conditioned dhammas cannot be controlled. Just wait for the right moment when there is enough accumulation of parami, then you will become arahant'. But this sassana is not for lazy people who do not make strong effort. No, I did not say that, the Buddha did in AN 8.53. "Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.' .............. >T:The question 'Is there a self' or 'Is there no self' are extreme views (attanuditthi) that are conditioned by upadana in the khandhas." Scott: This last clause has been used frequently and I think incorrectly, as in the above case. Here the implication seems to be that since each question is an 'extreme view' then this must mean that there is a self or person, in this case until a certain rung of the ladder is reached. This is untenable. T: No, that is a wrong implication. What does the 'self' in the two extreme questions refer to, if not the Category 4 (permanent ego- identity)? 'There is a self' then corresponds to eternalism, and 'There is no self' implies temporary permanence or annihilation after death. Both cases are therefore against the Buddha's Teachings. Hence they are two extreme self-views. ........... Scott: The fact of a clinging to concepts does not lend ultimate reality to the concepts. It is just clinging. T: How can anyone "lend ultimate reality to the concepts" anyway? It makes no sense. They are two separate realities in co-existence. The failure to see the truths right now about the real world (in which you exist as a "gross acquisition of self" in the present moment) is already a view-clinging ! That is, blindly cling to the ultimate realities that one is unable to experience with the six senses as real; but chooses to blindly reject one's own real-world sensed experiences. That is a make-belief. ............ Scott: Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. The above conclusion is a misunderstanding. As noted above, clinging does not imbue its objects with reality. T: Making belief by blindly mimicking the ariyans does not imbue the un-experienced ultimate realities with reality either. ........... Scott: Again the untenable assumption that it is the 'vision' that creates the view. The cart is before the horse. T: You might have a hallucination that makes you see the horse as a cart, and makes the cart look like a horse? Scott: Hoping that wasn't too hard on you, Tep, .. T: Give me more, please, Give me more ! I like to be abused, Scott. Tep === #76411 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (15) nilovg Dear Tep, I was not clear enough. I meant, we, as if we are like children, can just follow a teacher. But that would not be helpful. We agree about Andrew ;-)) Nina. Op 15-sep-2007, om 16:11 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > N: We can, as children, just follow what a teacher says: do not > commit evil deeds. But, firm conviction of the benefit of kusala has > to come from within, in other words, from understanding kusala as > kusala and akusala as akusala. > > T: But at that level most kids are not able to or not interested in > having "firm siila" anyway, let alone expecting them to have pa~n~naa > that understand siila. IMO most teachers have failed to educate > children about siila. #76412 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:47 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "No, I do not see it that way. Does pa~n~naa develop pa~n~naa with no supporting conditions? That is ridiculous!" Scott: Agreed. No dhamma develops in isolation. Supporting conditions always are involved. Pa~n~naa, both supported and as supporting condition, develops nonetheless, doesn't it? The development of pa~n~naa would not be equal to the development of, say, sati, would it? T: "A far better way to explain the development of pa~n~naa is given in Howard's message # 76374. 1.Virtuous ways of conduct -> 2. Non-remorse -> 3. Gladness -> 4. Joy -> 5. Serenity -> 6. Happiness -> 7. Concentration of the mind -> 8. Knowledge and vision of things as they really are -> 9. Revulsion and dispassion -> 10. Knowledge and vision of liberation Then the process renews itself, restarting with higher virtuous conducts, and so on, until arahantship." Scott: Aren't all of these mental factors? Subject to arising and ceasing? T: "By conceiving/imagining anythings other than the ultimate truths as "un-truth" is an exaggeration that is concocted by the biased view (this only is right, all other things are not)." Scott: Let's agree to disagree, Tep. T: "No, that is a wrong implication. What does the 'self' in the two extreme questions refer to, if not the Category 4 (permanent ego- identity)? 'There is a self' then corresponds to eternalism, and 'There is no self' implies temporary permanence or annihilation after death. Both cases are therefore against the Buddha's Teachings. Hence they are two extreme self-views." Scott: Perhaps I was misunderstanding you to have used the above distinction to assert that 'beings' ought to be accorded some sort of reality beyond that of 'convention'. Was that the reason you brought this in to the discussion? Or were you asserting that beings are 'real' on some other basis? T: "How can anyone 'lend ultimate reality to the concepts' anyway? It makes no sense." Scott: By thinking about it and misunderstanding it. Thinking and conceptualising can create a notion that concepts are 'real'. I think that we ought to call the discussion to a close very soon, Tep. T: "...They are two separate realities in co-existence. The failure to see the truths right now about the real world (in which you exist as a "gross acquisition of self" in the present moment) is already a view-clinging ! That is, blindly cling to the ultimate realities that one is unable to experience with the six senses as real; but chooses to blindly reject one's own real-world sensed experiences. That is a make-belief." Scott: This is clear, Tep, and this is at the heart of the divergence between our two ways of seeing things. I say there is only one 'reality'. This is why we can agree to disagree. You are too good a warrior to do otherwise. T: "Making belief by blindly mimicking the ariyans does not imbue the un-experienced ultimate realities with reality either." Scott: The existence of ulimate realities is independent of their being experienced as such. They continue to arise and cease irregardless of perception. Yes, it has been fun, Tep, but I fear we must stop, last word to you of course. I'm afraid two such stubborn discussants will come to no good if we continue. Thank you very much for the kind tenacity you've shown me. Sincerely, Scott. #76413 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:30 pm Subject: Re: "there is no ‘person’" - "The controversy on ‘person’ is ended" indriyabala Dear Nina , - Thank you very much for your special message( #76344); it is very sincere. I am glad that you decided to post it for discussion on the world of beings versus the world of pure paramattha dhammas, in which there are no things, no person, no Buddha. What can be more "abstract" than that world? N: Lodewijk discussed this with Kh Sujin and she answered: who is the Buddha. Actually, we think of his qualities of wisdom, purity and compassion. We also read in a Co that Buddha is not a name given by his parents, it denotes his qualities, his Buddhahood. T: By now Lodewijk probably is used to being questioned back ! We "recollect" the Buddha's qualities so that we are gladdened due to our conviction in Him and the Teachings are aroused and as the consequence, we attain other benefits such as ridding of fear, rising of joy, and abandoning of mental defilements. But how can we see the Buddha's qualities and His existence along with the conflicting perception of "no Buddha" ? To me it is like accelerating and braking the car at the same time. No progress is made! .............. N: I thought of your remark and my reaction: N: ... T: That kind of thinking happens to me too, sometimes. The conventional world is represented by the external ayatana, the six sensed objects. But only the manayatana of an ariyan can sense the ultimate dhammas. For example, we talk about the (present) citta, but we have no clue where it is or what it is like. Aren't we making believe? In fact, to a worldling the "conventional world" is the only real thing, not the ultimate world of the ariyans. So why reject it? Make use of the raft to cross the river, do not discard it now. If we do, then what do we have to cross the River with? .............. N: Two worlds coexisting sounds abstract to me. I am also careful with existing, existance. Howard would say that is substantialism and he is right. I like to consider: what object does the present citta experience at this or that moment. T: You are a theoretical intellectual. Does "abstract" mean unreal/imaginary to you? To me nothing is more abstract than the paramattha dhammas. Mind and body are simple to understand and more "real" to me than the 89 cittas, 50 cetasikas and 24 ruupa. Substantialism seems negative to me as well -- does it mean a kind of mental fabrications that are far from the truth? But none of us (including Howard and Scott and kenH and Sarah,...) know the ultimate truths, we simply want to believe that they only are the real things. ............. N: We see another person crying, but this could not be an object of thought if there were no seeing and visible object. If there were no citta we would not know. Kh Sujin often says: if there were no paramattha dhammas the conventional world of concepts could not appear. T: Sure, if there were no atoms and molecules the whole universe could not appear. But with our naked eyes we can only see the universe (to some extent), not the atoms and molecules that make up the stars and galaxies, etc. In the same token, while we are in the conventional/real world, we are unable to experience the paramattha dhammas. In the real world we talk about the mind and body, and even small kids understand the mind. Try talking "citta" to even adults and find out if there is a single adult who can experience the citta (that arises and passes awy tremendously fast)? Do you depend on the mind to get all kinds of things done in each living day, or do you use the citta in the present moment to make decision? So let's be practical. Save the Abhidhamma principles for the cases that require more accurate description of the mental phenomena, otherwise rely on the broader & less abstract words of the sutta. That is what I call making the best of both worlds without conflicts. ............. N: Without citta there could be no thought about the feeling of someone else, but we remember what was seen, keep on remembering a story of a lasting person. That is atta-sa~n~naa. This can decrease when we begin to be aware of the characteristics of realities that appear one at a time. I found Jon's remark helpful as a reaction to a remark that a person is derived from the khandhas: Here are only a few thoughts on account of the discussions on no person. T: No doubt that the Abhidhamma is powerful for giving detailed descriptions of citta, cetasika, and ruupa. I've never tried to belittle the importance of the Abhidhamma either. I only caution that there are domains of realities besides the ultimate realities, and that when we accept both domains (or "worlds"), then apparent conflicts and confusions that are in the eye of the beholder simply disappear. Thank you so much for your thoughts, Nina. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep and all, > I wrote this a while ago and kept it in my files. After all I post > it, although there are too many posts on this subject. > Op 4-sep-2007, om 9:01 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > You are right : I can see why further elaborations and comments on > > the original words of the Teachings can end up in that conclusion > > of "no Buddha!!". > ------- > N: Lodewijk discussed this with Kh Sujin and she answered: who is the > Buddha. Actually, we think of his qualities of wisdom, purity and > compassion. #76414 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:59 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Scott, my young friend - A Chinese proverb says " There is no party that never ends". > Scott: >Yes, it has been fun, Tep, but I fear we must stop, last word to you > of course. I'm afraid two such stubborn discussants will come to no > good if we continue. Thank you very much for the kind tenacity you've > shown me. > T: So, even though I am still full with energy (too good for an old guy?), I agree with you that we must stop now. I thank you too for the patience and politeness you have displayed, Warrior Scott. Tep === #76415 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (15) indriyabala Hi, Nina, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > I was not clear enough. I meant, we, as if we are like children, can > just follow a teacher. But that would not be helpful. > We agree about Andrew ;-)) > Nina. > I see now. No, it would not be helpful (that means I admit that some pa~n~na is needed to guide siila). Obedient kids normally follow a teacher -- even when they understand nothing. But in the U.S. these days, obedients kids are as hard to find as a diamond on a public beach. Tep === #76416 From: "colette" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (15) ksheri3 Hi Tep, et al, It sounds as though you are advocating Madhyahmyka or Madhyamaka as being "The Middle Path". Nina's approach is from an angle that advocates the necessity of building proper structures which is to focus on the basics, Vipishyana being one of them but there are so many different forms of Vipishyana, and well, that is simply Nina's trip yet she in her trip and focus, is certainly of value to the rest of the group and to the masses at large that can only stomach the De Jour version of Buddhism. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Nina (Andrew, Han, Scott, Colette, etc.), - > > > N: > > Dear Han (and Tep), > > This quote clarifies that there cannot be firm siila without > > pa~n~naa. > > T: So far my concern has been mainly about the higher pa~n~naa on the > Path that only arises when the siila support is at least at the > Sotapanna level. > colette: now you've gone and placed restrictions on silla and pannaa: in the process of understanding the teachings you've taken a concept, which is the dharma, and you've superimposed your concepts on it CERTAINLY DILLUTING THE VALUE OF THE DHARMA. But that's okay, as long as you know that it is nothing more than your concept and is not the dharma. -------------------------------------- > N: We can, as children, just follow what a teacher says: do not > commit evil deeds. But, firm conviction of the benefit of kusala has > to come from within, in other words, from understanding kusala as > kusala and akusala as akusala. > colette: that statement is a very healthy way to approach the dharma and it's characteristics. Yet, Tep, you've gotta put up more walls, more requirements OF THE DHARMA so that it fits into your understanding, which you do below. ---------------------------- > T: But at that level most kids are not able to or not interested in > having "firm siila" anyway, let alone expecting them to have pa~n~naa > that understand siila. IMO most teachers have failed to educate > children about siila. > .................. > colette: PRAVDA, true, but that is simply your view from your position and understanding. I agree that society completely fails in it's attempts to educate children at every level or step of their education but that does not change the fact that at least society is trying to do the best that it can with what it has to work with. I'm sure that you'll absolutely require that everybody listen to your requirements for fitting into the definition of "doing it's best to..." but at least I know it's coming and will be issued and will be shown as MY absolute failure to properly fit into the mold of a group and the individuals that the group canabalises to remain a group. oops, gota go. time's up. toodles, colette > N: I think of Andrew's question: his sila is not well established. > Should he wait with the development of understanding of the different > cittas? Then he can wait for aeons. > > T: Right, it is a wrong & long waiting. > > > Tep > == > #76417 From: "tom" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:37 am Subject: There is a room zorroelbueno crowded with junk computers guitars microwave books books books long tables under which snaketangles of wires lie and one bag of guts called the me. The gutbag has gotten the crazy idea into its' meaty head that it is the hot article the hegemon the one that knows The computer monitor sits before the gutbag and stares at it with its' big rectangular eye and is busy proving how stupid it is by not displaying oh, hundreds of times "hahahahahaha" Z #76418 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:06 pm Subject: Away m_nease Hello All, I'll be away from my computer for a couple of weeks (at least) though I may be able to drop in occasionally. Rose and I are (however briefly) relinquishing our hedonistic life in Lilliwaup for a hedonistic holiday in Baja Mexico. Best Wishes, mike #76419 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:09 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (66) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato XIII. The Section of the Groups of Twenty [Verses] 1. Ambapaaliitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 9 verse: 260. "Pattaliimakulava.n.nasaadisaa sobhare su dantaa pure mama; te jaraaya kha.n.ditaa caasitaa, saccavaadivacana.m ana~n~nathaa. 260. Formerly my teeth looked beautiful, like the colour of the bud of the plantain. Because of old age, they are broken indeed and black. The utterance of the Speaker of Truth is not false. txt: Kha.n.ditaati bhedanapatanehi kha.n.ditaa kha.n.dabhaava.m gataa. Asitaati va.n.nabhedena asitabhaava.m gataa. Pruitt: 260. Broken (kha.n.ditaa) means: broken, arrived at the broken state (kha.n.da-bhaava.m) by breaking and falling out. Black (asitaa) means: arrived at the black state (asita-bhaava.m) due to the changing colour. verse: 261. "Kaananamhi vanasa.n.dacaarinii, kokilaava madhura.m nikuujiha.m; ta.m jaraaya khalita.m tahi.m tahi.m, saccavaadivacana.m ana~n~nathaa. 261. I warbled sweetly like a cuckoo wandering in the grove in a jungle thicket. Because of old age, it has faltered here and there. The utterance of the Speaker of Truth is not false. txt: Kaananamhi vanasa.n.dacaarinii, kokilaava madhura.m nikuujihanti vanasa.n.de gocaracara.nena vanasa.n.dacaarinii kaanane anusa.mgiitanivaasinii kokilaa viya madhuraalaapa.m nikuujiha.m. Tanti nikuujita.m aalaapa.m. Khalita.m tahi.m tahinti kha.n.dadantaadibhaavena tattha tattha pakkhalita.m jaata.m. 261. I warbled sweetly (madhura.m) like a cuckoo wandering in the grove (kaananamhi) in a jungle thicket (vana-sa.n.da-caarini) means: I warbled, singing sweetly (madhuraalaapa.m), like a cuckoo living with its fellow singers in a grove (kaanane), wandering in a jungle thicket, living in a jungle thicket (vana-sa.n.de). It means: that song was warbled. It has faltered (khalita.m) here and there (tahi.m tahi.m) means: it has become faltering (pakkhalita.m) here and there (tattha tattha) because of the state of my broken teeth, etc. verse: 262. "Sa.nhakamburiva suppamajjitaa, sobhate su giivaa pure mama; saa jaraaya bhaggaa vinaamitaa, saccavaadivacana.m ana~n~nathaa. 262. Formerly my neck looked beautiful like a well-rubbed delicate conch shell. Because of old age, it is broken and bowed down. The utterance of the Speaker of Truth is not false. txt: Sa.nhakamburiva suppamajjitaati su.t.thu pamajjitaa sa.nhaa suva.n.nasa"nkhaa viya. Bhaggaa vinaamitaati ma.msaparikkhayena vibhuutasiraajaalataaya bhaggaa hutvaa vinataa. 262. Like a well-rubbed (suppamajjitaa) delicate conch shell (sa.nha-kambu-r-iva) means: like a golden conch shell (suva.n.na-sa"nkaa), delicate (sa.nhaa) and well rubbed (su.t.thu pamajjitaa). It is broken and bowed down means: it is broken and bent over because of the decaying of the flesh and because of the network of veins that are destroyed. ===to be continued, connie #76420 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:47 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Old Dude (a.k.a. Tep), T: "A Chinese proverb says 'There is no party that never ends'. So, even though I am still full with energy (too good for an old guy?), I agree with you that we must stop now. I thank you too for the patience and politeness you have displayed, Warrior Scott. Scott: Party on, man. Sincerely, Scott. #76421 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Purification of View corvus121 Dear Tep I wish I had your powers of memory! I truly don't remember our previous conversation. Thank you very much for treating my enquiry seriously and for the wonderful effort and clarity in your response. I tend to think that when we see things presented sequentially in the suttas, it can be an error to jump to the conclusion that the sequence is always rigid. This is obviously an error you do not make as you point out about the later stages of the sequence: "Selectively, some of them are relevant at the sila-dominant stage." > Tep: two important things: > 1) You see sila as the foundation of the Buddhist practice, and > 2) you see a sequence of practice that progresses from sila to the > higher-up dhammas. A: Yes, I agree with the above, not in a strictly sequential fashion but in the context that, where there is a breach of sila, there is no Buddhist practice. However, it is clear from the suttas that we can learn from breaches of sila. In MN 114.6, the Buddha said "Bhikkhus, verbal conduct is of two kinds, I say: to be cultivated and not to be cultivated. And verbal conduct is either the one or the other ... such verbal conduct as causes unwholesome states to increase and wholesome states to diminish in one who cultivates it should not be cultivated." Lying is a breach of sila. To follow the above advice, we need to be able to examine states that arise in consequence of lying or do not arise in consequence of lying and we also need to be able to determine if those states are wholesome or unwholesome. How do we do that? By studying and gaining some understanding of the Buddhadhamma. We don't use as our benchmark social mores or Grandma's advice that "a little white lie never hurt anyone". We go to the Dhamma. This is no doubt why you say that *some* of the later stages are relevant at the sila-dominant stage. Tep, I think we are largely in agreement and your advice that initial focus should be upon sila is good advice. But I still have a niggling doubt about over-emphasising the sequence and I will tell you why. Perhaps you can suggest another way of looking at things? If people believe that there is a conventional progression (like a career path structure) and they must "perfect sila" first before being promoted to working on concentration and then the higher wisdom, this gives the false impression that, for example, they must at the first stage eradicate any tendency to lying or harsh speech. Which is a big ask. Even the arahant, Vaccha, continued out of habit to use demeaning outcaste language when he spoke (with kiriya intention) to the other bhikkhus (see Sarah's post #52994). How strong and deeply rooted are our worldling akusala habits?? So we are setting a high goal for an early conventional stage when we could emphasise that the these stages are yoked and interlinked. Howard likes the spiral image and I think it is quite apt although not literally found in the suttas. So that is my comment - on emphasis rather than substance. Your sutta quotes are all excellent. I was only recently reading the advice to Meghiya in AN Chapter of the Nines (while pondering the level of understanding of anicca that is required early on). Thank you again, Tep. I hope I was better behaved this time!!?? Best wishes Andrew #76422 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:02 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 5, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The “Visuddhimagga”, in the Chapter on Virtue, Síla, gives the following fourfold classification of purity of síla (pårisuddhi síla): the restraint of “Påtimokkha” including 227 rules of discipline for the monk, the restraint of the sense faculties (indriya samvara síla), the purity of livelihood (åjíva pårisuddhi síla), the use of the four requisites of robe, dwelling, food and medicines, that is purified by reflection (paccaya sannissita síla). With regard to the restraint of the Påtimokkha, we read in the “Book of Analysis” (Ch 12, 244): Herein a bhikkhu dwells restrained and controlled by the Påtimokkha restraint, endowed with (proper) behaviour and a (suitable) alms resort, seeing peril in (his) slightest faults, observing (the precepts) he trains himself in the precepts.... As regards restraint of the sense faculties, there are different levels of restraint. We read in the “Middle Length Sayings” (no. 27, Lesser Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprint) that the Buddha spoke to the brahman Jånussoni about the monk who has restraint as to the sense-faculties: ... Having seen visible object with the eye he is not entranced by the general appearance, he is not entranced by the detail. If he dwells with this organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil unskilled states of mind, might predominate. So he fares along controlling it; he guards the organ of sight, he comes to control over the organ of sight.... The same is said with regard to the other senses and the mind-door. When awareness arises of visible object, sound or the other sense objects, there is no opportunity for the arising of akusala citta. At such a moment one does not harm anybody else through body or speech. When we understand which paramattha dhamma síla is, namely, citta and cetasika, it will be clear that there can be síla, even when one does not act or speak. Satipatthåna is the Buddha’s teaching, and thus, satipatthåna should not be separated from the other ways of síla the monk should observe: the restraint of the “Påtimokkha”, the purity of livelihood and the use of the requisites which is purified by reflection. ****** Nina. #76423 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (15) indriyabala Hi Colette (and Nina), - Thank you for the following email message. Colette : > It sounds as though you are advocating Madhyahmyka or Madhyamaka as > being "The Middle Path". Nina's approach is from an angle that > advocates the necessity of building proper structures which is to > focus on the basics, Vipishyana being one of them but there are so > many different forms of Vipishyana, and well, that is simply Nina's > trip yet she in her trip and focus, is certainly of value to the rest of the group and to the masses at large that can only stomach the De Jour version of Buddhism. > T: Probably you wrote it with the following definition of Madhyamaka in mind. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Madhyamaka (Also known as Œunyavada) is a Buddhist Mahayaana tradition popularized by Naagaarjuna and Aœvaghosa. The school of thought and its subsidiaries are called "Madhyamaka"; those who follow it are called "Maadhyamikas." According to the Maadhyamikas, all phenomena are empty of "self nature" or "essence" (Sanskrit: Svabhaava), meaning that they have no intrinsic, independent reality apart from the causes and conditions from which they arise. Madhyamaka is the rejection of two extreme philosophies, and therefore represents the "middle way" between eternalism (the view that something is eternal and unchanging) and nihilism (the assertion that all things are intrinsically already destroyed or rendered nonexistent. This is nihilism in the sense of Indian philosophy, and may differ somewhat from Western philosophical nihilism). .............. The definition above suggests that the DSG Abhidhammikas are Maadhyamikas. But isn't that contradicting to Theravada? I have also observed Nina's "trip and focus". But why did you say it was "the De Jour version of Buddhism" ? Tep === #76424 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:42 pm Subject: Re: "there is no �person�Equot; - "The controversy on �person�Eis ended" kenhowardau Hi Scott and Howard, ------------- <. . .> S: > Thoughts versus thinking; hard to grasp the distinction. <. . .> What are your thoughts on the idea that there can be thoughts which are wholesome, and thoughts which are not; -------------- I think it is the thin end of the wedge. To paraphrase the Satipatthana Sutta, "When a monk is thinking, he knows thinking as it truly is." So he knows the world of namas and rupas. For the purposes of satipatthana, he does not need to know "This thought (which is neither nama nor rupa) is superior/inferior to that thought." ------------------------------ S: > thoughts which express right view and thoughts which do not? ------------------------------ Hmm, that's a curly one! But even so, I stick to my opinion that it is always namas and rupas that need to be known for the purposes of satipatthana. Pariyatti (right intellectual understanding) consists of citta (with panna) that experiences a concept. But what does that form of panna understand? I would say it [indirectly] understands namas and rupas. It doesn't simply understand the logic of the teaching. Anyone can study Dhamma-theory and pass an exam on it, but I think pariyatti somehow understands "This is the true Dhamma!" So pariyatti occurs when a concept of namas and rupas is experienced by the panna that [indirectly] understands namas and rupas. As I said, it's a curly one, but I think the answer is "Thoughts don't express anything. Only dhammas exist and therefore any expressing that is going to be done will be done by dhammas!" ----------------------------- <. . .> S: > What is the manner in which thoughts are produced, do you think? ------------------------------ I tend to steer clear of that question. In the past, DSG has had discussions about the precise mechanisms of conceptualisation (is it done by sanna, or by is it done by vitaka and vicara etc, etc?) but now I prefer just to know that various namas combine to perform the function of thinking. -------------------------------------------- K: "Who can tell which particular dhammas were present when those thoughts of yours were formulated? All we can say is what we have learnt from our studies (of the Paccaya, etc). And the Paccaya doesn't mention Scott, James, Ken H or DSG; it only mentions dhammas and conditionality." Scott: Only dhammas and conditionality. I'm sorry but I'm going to have to agree with you here. --------------------------------------------- H: > I forgive you, but there is endless room for discussion. For example, Howard commented on something I said about this the other day: On the subject of forgiving people who had trespassed against us, I had recited my usual "there are only namas and rupas" blurb. Howard pointed out that there was, nevertheless, a need to distinguish between sentient beings. If we met Adolph Hitler, for example, we would do well to remember he was a particularly nasty sentient being - not just namas and rupas. Well, yes and no . . . The Dhamma teaches that, in the ultimate sense, thare are only namas and rupas arising momentarily at one of six doorways. It doesn't teach us to remember Hitler's part in the war and the holocaust. But nor does it teach us not to remember those things. Stories (concepts, pannatti) will continue to be created for as long as the dhammas that create them are conditioned to arise. There is no stopping them. And the Buddha did not want us to try to stop them. Right understanding of conditionality will condition metta for all sentient beings: but it won't stop the stories of who did what to whom. ------------------------------- <. . .> Scott: Right view. Indispensable. Knowing the characteristics of dhammas and how dhammas are part of cause and result. Kind of cuts through all the rest. ------------------------------ There you go again - being agreeable. No fun at all! Ken H #76425 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away nilovg Dear Mike, have good hedonistic holidays, but I hope with Dhamma. As Kh Sujin repeats: everything is dhamma, a condiitoned reality. But I know you will not exclude anything, and you will not think: this is not dhamma. Drop in as often as you can, we need you! Nina. Op 16-sep-2007, om 1:06 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > Rose and I are (however briefly) relinquishing our hedonistic life > in Lilliwaup for a hedonistic holiday in Baja Mexico. #76426 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:16 am Subject: 300 Spears! bhikkhu0@... Friends: Seeing The Truths is of Primary Importance! The Blessed Buddha once said this: Bhikkhus, imagine a man with a life span of a hundred years. If some ask him: Good man, morning, noon & evening you will be pierced with a 100 spears and and despite being stabbed & impaled daily with 300 spears, you will survive a full 100 years, after which you will break through to the Four Noble Truths! Will you agree to do that? Then, Bhikkhus, he should accept this offer as a good deal..! For what reason? Because since an inconceivable beginning of Samsaric time, all beings have been & will eternally continue to be hit by spears, cut by swords, & chopped by axes. <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:440-1] section 56: Saccasamyutta. Thread 35: 100 Spears ... <...> Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <....> #76427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:38 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 14, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, When someone has attained the first stage of rúpa-jhåna the rúpåvacara kusala citta is accompanied by all five jhåna-factors and these condition that citta by way of jhåna-condition. After having emerged from jhåna one has to review the jhåna-factors with mindfulness and right understanding (Vis. IV, 138). Also in samatha mindfulness and right understanding are needed but the aim is not, as is the case in vipassanå, to see realities as non-self. The jhåna- factors are progressively abandoned as higher stages of jhåna are attained. A high degree of paññå is needed which discerns how to abandon the jhåna-factors so that the higher stages of jhåna which are more refined and tranquil can be reached. At the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna only the factors upekkhå and samådhi are left (Vis. Ch IV). The arúpåvacara cittas (of arúpa-jhåna, immaterial jhåna) are accompanied only by the jhåna-factors upekkhå and samådhi. Jhåna-factors which are sobhana condition each kusala citta, and thus they also condition the kusala citta which develops vipassanå by way of jhåna-condition. In vipassanå the aim is not the suppression of the hindrances by the development of the sobhana jhåna-factors, as is the case in samatha. Some people think that the hindrances have to be suppressed first before there can be right understanding of nåma and rúpa. In vipassanå, however, right understanding is developed of whatever reality appears, also when that reality is a “hindrance”. When it appears it does so because it is conditioned. All conditioned realities have to be known as they are, as non-self. At the moment of right understanding of the characteristic of a hindrance such as desire or ill will, the citta is kusala citta and there is no hindrance. There is no rule that samatha should be developed before vipassanå can be developed. Some people develop samatha, others do not, and this depends on conditions. People are born with different inclinations, different talents, different possibilities. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas and thus, inclinations can be accumulated from one moment to the next moment. The bhavanga-citta which succeeds the patisandhi-citta is conditioned by that citta by way of proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya, and each following citta is conditioned by the preceding one by way of proximity- condition. Cittas are conditioned by many different conditions and there is no self who could alter the cittas which arise. ******** Nina. #76428 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no 'person'" - "The controversy on 'person' is ended" moellerdieter Hi Tep (Nina and all), you wrote: T: Sure, if there were no atoms and molecules the whole universe could not appear. But with our naked eyes we can only see the universe (to some extent), not the atoms and molecules that make up the stars and galaxies, etc. In the same token, while we are in the conventional/real world, we are unable to experience the paramattha dhammas. In the real world we talk about the mind and body, and even small kids understand the mind. Try talking "citta" to even adults and find out if there is a single adult who can experience the citta (that arises and passes awy tremendously fast)? Do you depend on the mind to get all kinds of things done in each living day, or do you use the citta in the present moment to make decision? So let's be practical. Save the Abhidhamma principles for the cases that require more accurate description of the mental phenomena, otherwise rely on the broader & less abstract words of the sutta. That is what I call making the best of both worlds without conflicts' D: that is my understanding too.. modern atom physics showed that Quantum Mechanics or the world of elementar particles , which is the base of all existence, have special laws but that does not make the laws of classical physics invalid . The reality depends on the level one is refering too and for our daily life it is the latter which is by far more important . Mixing the levels causes confusion and misunderstandings. Likewise when we do not apply the Abhidhamma in a proper way , we may set the chariot in front of the horses.. with Metta Dieter #76429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:38 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 5, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, As to the monk’s livelihood, he should not try to obtain the requisites by hinting, by scheming or hypocrisy. As to purification of the use of the requisites by wise reflection, he should not have attachment to them but see them as a means to protect his body and to continue his life as a monk, developing paññå which leads to arahatship. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (I, 124) about the “reviewing” of the requisites by the monk: Herein, reviewing is of two kinds: at the time of receiving requisites and at the time of using them. For use is blameless in one who at the time of receiving robes, etc., reviews them either as (mere) elements or as repulsive, and puts them aside for later use, and in one who reviews them thus at the time of using them. Both the monk and the layfollower should train themselves in purity of síla, but the monk’s síla is higher than the síla of the layfollower, they cannot be compared with each other. Khun Sujin remarked that they are as different from each other as heaven and earth. The monk has left the household life with all its amenities in order to train himself to become an arahat, a perfected one. His lifestyle is like the arahat’s. Thus, the monk must have purity of síla, and if he commits a transgression he should make amends for it. If the transgression is very serious, such as killing, he is no longer a monk and he will be expelled from the order. However, also layfollowers can, in their own situation, apply what is laid down as the fourfold purification of síla. The restraint of the senses is achieved by satipatthåna, and this can be developed by both monks and layfollowers. As regards purity of livelihood, also layfollowers should not be engaged in wrong livelihood, for example by bribery or deceit. As regards using the “requisites” wisely, this can also be applied by layfollowers. When one considers food as a medicine for the body it will help one not to indulge in overeating. It is natural that we are attached to clothing, food and home, but sometimes there can be conditions for kusala citta with wise reflection. ******** Nina. #76430 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "there is no 'person'" - "The controversy on 'person' is ended" indriyabala Hi Dieter (and other members), - Thank you for the good comments. > Dieter: that is my understanding too.. modern atom physics showed that Quantum Mechanics or the world of elementar particles , which is the base of all existence, have special laws but that does not make the laws of classical physics invalid . > The reality depends on the level one is refering too and for our daily life it is the latter which is by far more important . Mixing the levels causes confusion and misunderstandings. T: It is a very good observation that the special laws of Quantum Mechanics do not supercede the classical laws of Physics. It is because they are valid in their own domains. In the same token the conventional truths are not invalidated by the Paramattha dhamma principles. ............. D: Likewise when we do not apply the Abhidhamma in a proper way , we may set the chariot in front of the horses.. T: Right, a wrong view can create an illusion; but in the eye of the beholder everything is perfect. Tep === #76431 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:05 am Subject: Re: Siila nilovg Dear Han, thank you very much for your post on siila off line. I like to answer it on dsg to share with all. I always appreciate any contributions you like to give us and I am sure others do. ---------- Op 16-sep-2007, om 4:07 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: Most of us in Burma attach high priority to siila. Siila is the foundation, and siila is almost everything. Most of the elders in Burma go to the temple, observe five or eight precepts, listen to dhamma talks, and do some work for the temple. That is their usual practice, centered round the observance of precepts. Of course, they know what is kusala and akausal and what is pa~n~naa. That’s why they go to the temple regularly in the first place. But the pa~n~naa they know may not be of a high level that you described They may not know what is citta, cetasika and rupa. They may not pay due attention to seeing and hearing that occur all the time in daily life, and may not know that only one object can be experienced at a time. They may not have the insight that can be directly experienced that nama and rupa fall away completely. They may not understand that there are conditions for whatever reality arises and that we cannot be master of realities, etc. For the Burmese elders, siila is most important. There is a Burmese proverb: if only when one’s stomach is full one can observe siila. When one is very poor, or when one does not know from where the next meal will come, one cannot observe siila. Therefore, the first aim in our life is to be relatively well-off so that we can do daana and observe siila. We value siila even more than daana. Siila is the near goal. Nibbaana is the far goal. There are many stories about siila. There was once a very wise minister in the court of a Burmese king. He was well respected by the king and offered many gifts by the king. One day he wanted to know whether he was respected by the king for his knowledge or for his siila. So he stole a little bit of gold from the royal goldsmith. For once or twice the goldsmith did not do anything. But later on, as the stealing went on, he reported the matter to the king. The king immediately put the minister under arrest and was about to punish him. Then the minister gave back all the gold he had taken and told the king what his real purpose was. He told the king that he now knew he was respected by the king not for his knowledge but for his siila. The king, after hearing the story, reinstated the minister. But the minister refused, and went forth as a monk. ----------- N: This reminds me also of life in Sri Lanka, on Uposatha days. I was there twice. People would sit in groups in the temple yard and recite together the satipatthana sutta. The story about the wise minister reminds me also of a Jataka story which is similar. As you say, people also listen to Dhamma talks, and that is bhavana. According to the classifications of siila, this can be understood in a wider sense, including all practice. It is the application of the Dhamma. Also daana can be seen as a kind of siila: one gives other beings the opportunity to live without being harmed, to live in peace. I just give a few thoughts, let us say, I think aloud, and this also goes for my postings on the Perfection corner. The Visuddhimagga in Ch I, under virtue, siila, section 140,includes all kinds of bhavana in siila: and so on for all stages of jhaana. and so on for the contemplation of dukkha... Nina. #76432 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for sharing my off-line message to you with other members. I also thank you for pointing out the different kinds of siila. But I think if we all can observe just five precepts (not many, just five) the world will be a much better place to live in. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > > thank you very much for your post on siila off line. > I like to answer > it on dsg to share with all. I always appreciate any > contributions > you like to give us and I am sure others do. > ---------- #76433 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:07 am Subject: Re: "there is no �person�Equot; - "The controversy on �person�Eis ended" scottduncan2 Dear Ken, Thanks for the reply: Me: "What are your thoughts on the idea that there can be thoughts which are wholesome, and thoughts which are not..." K: "I think it is the thin end of the wedge. To paraphrase the Satipatthana Sutta, 'When a monk is thinking, he knows thinking as it truly is.' So he knows the world of namas and rupas. For the purposes of satipatthana, he does not need to know 'This thought (which is neither nama nor rupa) is superior/inferior to that thought'." Scott: Yeah, in the above the thinking is known, not the content of the thoughts. The suggestion here is that the content is irrelevant. I think that I might tend to agree with that if that is what you are saying, when limited to the above. However, thoughts - content is inseparable - can be object condition for the arising of realities which can be further condition for action (kamma). In this sense content is relevant - although not a reality (paramattha dhamma). Let's take a being [concept] as mind-object - thoughts about a being [concept]. Technically, I'd say that any form of interaction with beings [concepts] is conceptual, and whatever functional reality (dhamma) arises in relation to this conceptual interaction (and the thoughts about it) would be either kusala or akusala (leaving aside kiriya and bhavanga and the like). For example, someone makes you angry. The dhamma dosa arises in relation to thoughts about a concept. Dosa can be condition for more thoughts about a concept. Or someone arouses you sexually. The dhammas lobha or raaga arise in relation to thoughts about a concept. Of course the thoughts are conditioned by visible object or sound, or whatever in the case of 'someone', but here I'm referring solely to the thoughts about 'someone' as object condition. Are thoughts conditioned by the akusala dhammas dosa or lobha also akusala? With the Brahma-vihaaras, for example, the appama~n~naa mettaa, karunaa, muditaa, and upekkhaa all arise with being [concept] as object. Are the thoughts conditioned by these kusala dhammas also kusala? I'm tempted to say no since concepts (thoughts) are not realities. Me: "...thoughts which express right view and thoughts which do not?" K: "Hmm, that's a curly one! But even so, I stick to my opinion that it is always namas and rupas that need to be known for the purposes of satipatthana." Scott: Right, and I think only naama and ruupa can be known in the way things are known by pa~n~naa and sati. These dhammas do not perform the function of vitakka and vicaara - maybe these two 'create' the thoughts. K: "Pariyatti (right intellectual understanding) consists of citta (with panna) that experiences a concept. But what does that form of panna understand? I would say it [indirectly] understands namas and rupas. It doesn't simply understand the logic of the teaching. Anyone can study Dhamma-theory and pass an exam on it, but I think pariyatti somehow understands 'This is the true Dhamma!' So pariyatti occurs when a concept of namas and rupas is experienced by the panna that [indirectly] understands namas and rupas. As I said, it's a curly one, but I think the answer is 'Thoughts don't express anything. Only dhammas exist and therefore any expressing that is going to be done will be done by dhammas!'" Scott: Ahh. This is what I was wondering about. What is 'intellectual understanding'? Is it pa~n~naa of a lower developmental order or strength? It seems clear superficially that there are right and wrong ways to think of things. In fact this is all we discuss here every day. But if thoughts (concepts) are not paramattha dhammas, then how can they be either 'right' or 'wrong', let alone kusala or akusala. On the other hand, the Dhamma is about the way things are. I think it is only one way that things are and this is the way the Dhamma describes it. Thinking that conforms to the Dhamma is 'right'. And thinking that is right would have to be based on knowing that is not 'intellectual' but is grounded in pa~n~naa. I'll stop for now. What do you think? (Ha Ha). Sincerely, Scott. #76434 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila nilovg Dear Han, I quite agree with you. But we also know that when circumstances are very difficult it is hard for some people to observe them. I think of a plague of insects in the house, etc. not killing them, but finding other ways to get rid of them. Here in this list people tried hard to find other ways like Howard. Recently Ken H said he gave up all alcoholic drinks. We have learnt that the sotaapanna will never transgress the precepts. For us, we cannot be sure, taking into account the latent tendencies that we have accumulated. Nina. Op 16-sep-2007, om 15:28 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But I think if we all can observe just five precepts > (not many, just five) the world will be a much better > place to live in. #76435 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:37 am Subject: Re: Purification of View indriyabala Hi Andrew, - Thank you for showing more tolerance. A: Thank you very much for treating my enquiry seriously and for the wonderful effort and clarity in your response. Tep: I thank you too for the same reason. I hope we can maintain the same attitude in future conversations too. I like your quote from MN 114.6 : 'Bhikkhus, verbal conduct is of two kinds, I say: to be cultivated and not to be cultivated'. That sounds like yoniso-manasikara vs. ayoniso-manasikara to me. A: We don't use as our benchmark social mores or Grandma's advice that "a little white lie never hurt anyone". We go to the Dhamma. T: That is funny and very true. I think one who practices bending kusala dhamma is headed toward akusala dhamma for sure. But when I read your message further, you seem to suggest that some deviation from the "perfect sila" is alright. It depends; I think deviations that do not bend the training rules(Dhamma-vinaya) or violate the Patimoka sila are alright. A: If people believe that there is a conventional progression (like a career path structure) and they must "perfect sila" first before being promoted to working on concentration and then the higher wisdom, this gives the false impression that, for example, they must at the first stage eradicate any tendency to lying or harsh speech. Which is a big ask. T: And you cited an example of the Arahant Vaccha's habit of using demeaning language, but I assume he did not intend to verbally abuse people. He did not violate the fourth precept, yet his right speech was not perfect. So, you are right to ask how perfection is measured. I think the Buddha already thought about this question in AN 3.87 . "Monks, more than 150 training rules come up for recitation every fortnight, in reference to which clansmen desiring the goal train themselves. There are these three trainings under which they (the training rules) are all gathered. Which three? The training in heightened virtue, the training in heightened mind, the training in heightened discernment. These are the three trainings under which they are all gathered... "There is the case where a monk is fully accomplished in virtue, partially accomplished in concentration, and partially accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because it is not said to be disqualification (for the noble attainments). But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, his virtue is permanent, his virtue is steadfast. With the total ending of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening." [AN 3.87] ........... A: Thank you again, Tep. I hope I was better behaved this time!!?? T: You have passed my acceptance test with a top score, Andrew. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > Dear Tep ... > > > Tep: two important things: > > 1) You see sila as the foundation of the Buddhist practice, and > > 2) you see a sequence of practice that progresses from sila to the higher-up dhammas. > > A: Yes, I agree with the above, not in a strictly sequential fashion but in the context that, where there is a breach of sila, there is no Buddhist practice. However, it is clear from the suttas that we can learn from breaches of sila. #76436 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:40 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (66) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato XIII. The Section of the Groups of Twenty [Verses] 1. Ambapaaliitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 10 verse: 263. "Va.t.tapalighasadisopamaa ubho, sobhare su baahaa pure mama; taa jaraaya yathaa paa.talibbalitaa, saccavaadivacana.m ana~n~nathaa. 263. Formerly both my arms looked beautiful, like round crossbars. Because of old age, they are like pale [branches of] the trumpet-flower tree. The utterance of the Speaker of Truth is not false. txt: Va.t.tapalighasadisopamaati va.t.tena palighada.n.dena samasamaa. Taati taa ubhopi baahaayo. Yathaa paa.talibbalitaati jajjarabhaavena palitapaa.talisaakhaasadisaa. Pruitt: 263. Like round crossbars (va.t.ta-paligha-sadisopamaa) means: exactly like the round (va.t.tena) rod of a crossbar (paligha-da.ndena). They means: they are both my arms. Like pale [branches of] the trumpet-flower tree (paa.tali-ppalitaa) means: like branches of the trumpet-flower tree that are pale (palita-paa.tali-saakhaa-sadisaa) due to their withered state. verse: 264. "Sa.nhamuddikasuva.n.nama.n.ditaa sobhare su hatthaa pure mama; te jaraaya yathaa muulamuulikaa, saccavaadivacana.m ana~n~nathaa. 264. Formerly my hands looked beautiful, with delicate signet rings, decorated with gold. Because of old age, they are like onions and radishes. The utterance of the Speaker of Truth is not false. txt: Sa.nhamuddikasuva.n.nama.n.ditaati suva.n.namayaahi ma.t.thabhaasuraahi muddikaahi vibhuusitaa. Yathaa muulamuulikaati muulakaka.n.dasadisaa. 264. With delicate signet rings, decorated with gold means: adorned with signet rings that are polished and shining, made of gold. Like onions and radishes (muula-muulikaa) means: like onions and radishes (muulaka-ka.n.da-sadisaa). verse: 265. "Piinava.t.tasahibhuggataa ubho, sobhare su thanakaa pure mama; thevikiiva lambanti nodakaa, saccavaadivacana.m ana~n~nathaa. 265. Formerly, both my breasts looked beautiful, swelling, round, close together, lofty. [Now,] they hang down like empty water bags. The utterance of the Speaker of Truth is not false. txt: Piinava.t.tasahituggataati piinaa va.t.taa a~n~nama~n~na.m sahitaava hutvaa uggataa uddhamukhaa. Sobhate su thanakaa pure mamaati mama ubhopi thanaa yathaavuttaruupaa hutvaa suva.n.nakalasiyo viya sobhi.msu. Puthutte hi ida.m ekavacana.m, atiitatthe ca vattamaanavacana.m. Thevikiiva lambanti nodakaati te ubhopi me thanaa nodakaa galitajalaa ve.nuda.n.dake .thapita-udakabhasmaa viya lambanti. 265. Swelling, round, close together, lofty (piina-va.t.ta-sahit'-uggataa) means: swelling (pinaa), round (va.t.taa), being close to each other (a~n~na-m-a~n~na.m sahitaa), [and] lofty (uggataa), with their tips turned up. Formerly, my breasts (thanakaa) looked beautiful means: both my breasts (thanaa), being as beautiful as I have just said, shone like golden jars. This is the singular in the sense of the plural, and the present tense in the sense of the past. They hang down like empty water bags means: both of these breasts of mine hang down like water bags that are empty, with the water dripped [out], suspended from a bamboo stick. ===to be continued, connie #76437 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Nina, I agree with what you wrote: “when circumstances are very difficult it is hard for some people to observe them.” “We have learnt that the sotaapanna will never transgress the precepts. For us, we cannot be sure, taking into account the latent tendencies that we have accumulated.” Please consider what I wrote in my last post as just “wishful thinking.” As the time goes by, it will be harder and harder to observe all five precepts. Everyday one reads in the newspaper, news about violence and unrest in many countries. As the difficulties and stressful situations prevail, people will find it difficult to observe the five precepts. When people do not observe the five precepts, there will be kamma vipaaka in the form of more violence and stressful situations. It is a vicious circle! If you believe in “kali-yuga”, one of the 4 (or 8) ages of the world, the age of vice, misery and bad luck, it is the age in which we are now! Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > I quite agree with you. But we also know that when > circumstances are > very difficult it is hard for some people to observe > them. #76438 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Siila indriyabala Hi Han and Nina (Kenh and Howard), - It was an interesting dialogue between you two. N: I think of a plague of insects in the house, etc. not killing them, but finding other ways to get rid of them. Here in this list people tried hard to find other ways like Howard. Recently Ken H said he gave up all alcoholic drinks. N: We have learnt that the sotaapanna will never transgress the precepts. For us, we cannot be sure, taking into account the latent tendencies that we have accumulated. H: As the time goes by, it will be harder and harder to observe all five precepts. H: When people do not observe the five precepts, there will be kamma vipaaka in the form of more violence and stressful situations. It is a vicious circle! H: If you believe in "kali-yuga", one of the 4 (or 8) ages of the world, the age of vice, misery and bad luck, it is the age in which we are now! ................. T: I am not sure whether I see a disagreement or some partial agreement in the above dialogue. Nina and Howard are contented in cleverly devising "another way" to apply the precepts. Good for you ! KenH is surprisingly more strict since he has successfully abstained from all alcoholic drinks. [Good for you too, Ken !] I have rodents in my house's attic plus several wasp nests around the house. Every time I thought about "getting rid" of them, I had to suppress that thought and replace it with a kind understanding, "they seem to like my house, let them live in peace". Besides, there is no way to stop killing once started, since more of the same kind will come again. They like my house ! We always have a choice. Just like an old saying, "Losers are monks, winners are Mara." and I don't want to be Mara. The vicious cycle can be severed now and we'll be safe. It is not too late I think, although the kali-yuga is coming ! Tep === #76439 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:56 pm Subject: Delightful are the Forests to the Passionless * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! <...> Taken from The Dhammapada1 Translated by Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda ARAHANTA VAGGA2 - THE WORTHY : DELIGHTFUL ARE THE FORESTS TO THE PASSIONLESS Ramanîyâni araññâni----- yattha na ramati jano Vîtarâgâ ramissanti----- na te kâmagavesino(99) Delightful are the forests where worldings delight not; the passionless3 will rejoice (therein), (for) they seek no sensual pleasures. (99) Dhammapada, Verse 99 A courtesan tempts a monk A bhikkhu, after taking a subject of meditation from the Buddha, was practising meditation in an old garden. A woman of doubtful character came into the garden and there she saw the monk sitting cross-legged. Looking this way and that, and seeing no one else about, she said to herself, 'Here is a man; I will throw his thoughts into confusion.' So standing in front of the monk, she took down her undergarment several times and put it on again, unloosened her hair and bound it up again, and clapped her hands and laughed. The monk became excited; his whole body, in fact, was suffused with excitement. 'What does this mean?' thought he. The Buddha considered within himself, 'A monk obtained a Subject of Meditation from me and went forth to perform his meditations. How is he getting on?' Seeing that woman, and observing her evil conduct, and perceiving that her evil conduct was upsetting the monk, still remaining seated in his monastery, he spoke as follows, 'Monk, there is no delight where those abide who seek after their lusts. But where those abide who are free from passion, that place is full of delight.' So saying, he sent forth a radiant image of himself, and instructed the monk in the Dhamma. The monk attained Sainthood. Notes 1. Dhammapada verses and stories are especially suitable for children. See an online versions here http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/dhammapada.htm , here http://www.mettanet.org/english/Narada/index.htm and here http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/ 2. Arahanta has several meanings. It may be interpreted as 'Worthy One', 'Passionless One'. Or one who commits no evil even secretly. He has got rid of both death and birth. After death, in conventional terms, he attains parinibbâna. Until his death he serves other seekers of truth by example and by precept. 3. The passionless Arahants rejoice in secluded forests which have no attraction for worldlings. <....> #76440 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Tep, Thank you very much for your kind interest. > Tep: We always have a choice. Just like an old saying, "Losers are monks, winners are Mara." and I don't want to be Mara. The vicious cycle can be severed now and we'll be safe. It is not too late I think, although the kali-yuga is coming! Han: Two things. (1) What do you mean by “Losers are monks, winners are Mara”? (2) The kali-yuga is not coming. We are already in it, according to PTS Dictionary. Respectfully, Han #76441 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:39 pm Subject: Re: "there is no �person�Equot; - "The controversy on �person�Eis ended" kenhowardau Hi Scott, ------------- <. . .> Scott: > Yeah, in the above the thinking is known, not the content of the thoughts. The suggestion here is that the content is irrelevant. I think that I might tend to agree with that if that is what you are saying, when limited to the above. However, thoughts - content is inseparable - can be object condition for the arising of realities which can be further condition for action (kamma). In this sense content is relevant - although not a reality (paramattha dhamma). -------------- Hmm, you're still pushing that thin end of the wedge. :-) The stories by themselves are never relevant, but I think I know what you mean. There is a commentary somewhere, isn't there, in which continuity of action is explained. For example, we can think "I will pick up the coffee cup. I am picking up the coffee cup. I am drinking coffee," and so on. So it can be said that those thoughts are acting as natural decisive support and as object. But that is the shorthand explanation. I, cup, picking up and drinking are mere concepts. They can't condition anything. A longer explanation would show that the conditioning was actually done by the dhammas that created/experienced the concepts. ----------------------- <. . .> S: > Are thoughts conditioned by the akusala dhammas dosa or lobha also akusala? With the Brahma-vihaaras, for example, the appama~n~naa mettaa, karunaa, muditaa, and upekkhaa all arise with being [concept] as object. Are the thoughts conditioned by these kusala dhammas also kusala? I'm tempted to say no since concepts (thoughts) are not realities. --------------------- I might be misunderstanding your question, but the victim of an attack, for example, can have metta for [the concept of] his attacker even while being 'sawn in half' can't he? That doesn't make the attacker kusala in any way (conventional or paramattha). ----------------------------- <. . .> S: > Right, and I think only naama and ruupa can be known in the way things are known by pa~n~naa and sati. These dhammas do not perform the function of vitakka and vicaara - maybe these two 'create' the thoughts. ------------------------------ Yes, it gets technical doesn't it? The citta that reacts to a conceptual object also creates that object (at the same time). But do all of the cetasikas in the citta both create and react, or do some just react? I can see how lobha, dosa and moha, for example, can react to a concept, but I can't quite see them as concept creators. I might add that I don't see these questions as crucial to my current level of understanding, so I am not in a great hurry for the answers. ------------------------ <. . .> S: > Ahh. This is what I was wondering about. What is 'intellectual understanding'? Is it pa~n~naa of a lower developmental order or strength? It seems clear superficially that there are right and wrong ways to think of things. In fact this is all we discuss here every day. But if thoughts (concepts) are not paramattha dhammas, then how can they be either 'right' or 'wrong', let alone kusala or akusala. -------------------------- Yes, we talk about "the true Dhamma," for example, as if concepts could have absolute characteristics of some kind. But I think it comes down to panna. Anything - concept or reality - that is seen by panna becomes the Dhamma. -------------------------- S: > On the other hand, the Dhamma is about the way things are. I think there is only one way that things are and this is the way the Dhamma describes it. Thinking that conforms to the Dhamma is 'right'. And thinking that is right would have to be based on knowing that is not 'intellectual' but is grounded in pa~n~naa. I'll stop for now. What do you think? (Ha Ha). --------------------------- I think you're on a roll. :-) Ken H #76442 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:53 pm Subject: The Initiating Sun! bhikkhu0 Friends: Having Right View induces Seeing The Truth! The Blessed Buddha once said this: Bhikkhus, dawn is the forerunner and precursor for the arising of the sun... Similarly, is Right View the forerunner and precursor for breaking through to the Four Noble Truths as the really are. One can expect that any Bhikkhu with Right View will understand as it really is: Suffering is an in all phenomena immanent misery! Craving and Clinging is the sole Cause of all Suffering! <....> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:442] section 56: Saccasamyutta. Thread 37: The Sun ... More on Right View (SammÄ? Ditthi): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_View.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Leaving_Wrong_View.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Advanced_Right_View.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_Noble_8-Fold_Way.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <...> #76443 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:05 am Subject: Re: Purification of View corvus121 Dear Tep Thanks so much for your post and encouragement. I'll add some comments below: I think one who practices bending > kusala dhamma is headed toward akusala dhamma for sure. But when I > read your message further, you seem to suggest that some deviation > from the "perfect sila" is alright. It depends; I think deviations > that do not bend the training rules(Dhamma-vinaya) or violate the > Patimoka sila are alright. A: My comments are a bit muddled here, I know, and I think it is caused by thinking of sila in 2 ways: 1. as a momentary thing; and 2. as something over time. It can be difficult to think of sila as a momentary thing. For example, lying is a breach of sila. But lying is not a paramattha dhamma. It is a concept that refers to the passing of an array of paramattha dhammas in a particular way over a period of time. If I can put this in "Tep language", I might say that in the sila- dominant stage, conceptual truth is crucial. How does that sound? > T: And you cited an example of the Arahant Vaccha's habit of using > demeaning language, but I assume he did not intend to verbally abuse > people. He did not violate the fourth precept, yet his right speech > was not perfect. So, you are right to ask how perfection is measured. A: You are right, of course. Vaccha's intention was *not* akusala and he did not violate the fourth precept. And yet, we might say that people understandably thought he was a bit rude or bigoted because of his habits of speech. Clearly, the purity (or otherwise) of other's citta cannot always be known from outward appearances. Always a good reminder. > I think the Buddha already thought about this question in AN 3.87 . > > "Monks, more than 150 training rules come up for recitation every > fortnight, in reference to which clansmen desiring the goal train > themselves. There are these three trainings under which they (the > training rules) are all gathered. Which three? The training in > heightened virtue, the training in heightened mind, the training in > heightened discernment. These are the three trainings under which > they are all gathered... > > "There is the case where a monk is fully accomplished in virtue, > partially accomplished in concentration, and partially accomplished > in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training > rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? > Because it is not said to be disqualification (for the noble > attainments). But as for the training rules that are basic to the > holy life and proper to the holy life, his virtue is permanent, his > virtue is steadfast. With the total ending of [the first] three > fetters, he is a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for > states of woe, headed for self-awakening." [AN 3.87] > ........... > > A: Thank you again, Tep. I hope I was better behaved this time!!?? > > T: You have passed my acceptance test with a top score, Andrew. Thank you, Tep. I'll try and stay a top student!! Best wishes Andrew #76444 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ‘person’" - "The controversy on ‘person’ is ended" nilovg Dear Tep, Howard wrote a few very good posts to clear up misunderstandings about the world of paramattha dhammas and the world in the conventional sense and so did James in his last post. The conventional world does not have to be denied and we have to be careful while formulating things. To avoid dragging on this subject too much, I will add a few points and take out just parts from your post. Op 15-sep-2007, om 22:30 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > N: moment there can be consideration (and a beginning understanding) of > a nama or rupa as it appears through one of the six doorways, and at > another moment, not at the same time, I am thinking of the > conventional world.> ... > > T: .... But only the manayatana of an ariyan can sense the > ultimate dhammas. For example, we talk about the (present) citta, but > we have no clue where it is or what it is like. Aren't we making > believe? In fact, to a worldling the "conventional world" is the only > real thing, not the ultimate world of the ariyans. So why reject it? > ..... N: We have different views here. I think that there can be a beginning of knowing the world in the ariyan sense, however imperfect that may be. As I described above. That is the way to have more understanding of the world of paramattha dhammas as being different from the conventional world I do not reject at all. As Sukin explained in his post on pariyatti, pariyatti is not merely theoretical understanding of paramattha dhammas, it is considering the presently arisen dhammas. We see persons time and again, that is the conventional world. But sometimes there can be a kind of 'study', considering seeing that experiences only visible object. Then we begin to know the world of paramattha dhammas. Afterwards there is thinking again of people. The thinking itself is a paramattha dhamma. The concept thinking thinks of is the conventional world and so they alternate all the time. This is just a very imperfect beginning of knowing the world in the ariyan sense. But a beginning is there! > .............. > > T: In the same token, while we are in the > conventional/real world, we are unable to experience the paramattha > dhammas. ------ N: They are experienced all the time, like hardness, sound, but it is not known that they are paramattha dhammas. There is ignorance of them. ---------- > T: In the real world we talk about the mind and body, and even > small kids understand the mind. Try talking "citta" to even adults > and find out if there is a single adult who can experience the citta > (that arises and passes awy tremendously fast)? Do you depend on the > mind to get all kinds of things done in each living day, or do you > use the citta in the present moment to make decision? -------- N: A citta cannot be used to make decisions, because we cannot predict which types of citta and cetasikas arise at a given moment. We do not have to talk about citta but there can be some understanding of it and this surely influences our conduct in daily life, the way we function, to get things done. ------- > T: So let's be practical. Save the Abhidhamma principles for the cases > that require more accurate description of the mental phenomena, > otherwise rely on the broader & less abstract words of the sutta. > That is what I call making the best of both worlds without conflicts. > ............. N: We cannot understand the message of the sutta without the Abhidhamma, but you and I have different views here. Mind and body are just short hand for mental phenomena and bodily phenomena that change all the time, also now. Each page of the suttas points to the deeper truth of life, but we do not have to call this truth Abhidhamma or paramattha dhammas. There is not a whole of mind, a whole of body, there are only ever changing phenomena. Ignorance has to be eliminated as to these phenomena of life, not of anything else. That is the Buddha's message repeated time and again in many different ways, adapted to the people who listened with different levels of understanding. > ------- > T: No doubt that the Abhidhamma is powerful for giving detailed > descriptions of citta, cetasika, and ruupa. I've never tried to > belittle the importance of the Abhidhamma either. I only caution that > there are domains of realities besides the ultimate realities, and > that when we accept both domains (or "worlds"), then apparent > conflicts and confusions that are in the eye of the beholder simply > disappear. --------- N: I know that you respect the Abhidhamma and I know your concern that people deny the conventional world. But I do not want to leave out the abhidhamma, not for a moment. When we think of persons we ususally do so with clinging and ignorance. Unless we think of them with metta, karuna, or want to help them. How rare are such moments compared to akusala cittas. Clinginng arises immediately after seeing, but it is not noticed. We want to see, we want to live, go on seeing. See, here I am already in the world of paramattha dhammas, speaking of kusala cittas and akusala cittas. How could we leave this out from daily life? That would be even dangerous, going on accumulating ignorance, evermore. The Abhidhamma is most practical. It helps us to see cause and result in our life. Kamma and vipaaka: why does this have to happen to 'me'? Poor me, and then we commiserate with ourselves, making things worse. When you get angry you may blame another person, but no, thinking of that person, what he did, etc. are just stories, concepts. But the real cause of your anger is within: your accumulated dosa. We need to know when there is lobha, dosa and moha, but we do not have to name them, or name them paramattha dhammas or Abhidhamma. They appear and have their own characteristics which can be directly experienced. They are the facts of life. Knowing about people's accumulations helps to be an understanding person instead of blaming them. See what I wrote in Asoka: We understand more when people scold us or are disagreeable to us, that this is due to their accumulations. We shall be less inclined to answer back, although it also happens that we are overpowered by akusala. And we have to know that, not misleading ourselves. > I think that Abhidhamma and vipassana go together. It does not mean > that there has to be awareness of all that is described in the > Abhidhamma, but understanding the main principles of the Abhidhamma > is a great support. It is useful to know more about seeing, hearing and all dhammas arising now. We are so ignorant of the different cittas, of our reactions to what is seen or heard, but should ignorance of paramattha dhammas not be eliminated? ****** Nina. > > #76445 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila nilovg Dear Han and Tep, Tep, I do appreciate your attitude towards tiny animals! Excellent. Han: the age of kali-yuga, I had not heard of before. I am more optimistic. Since the beginning of the world there were troubles caused by lobha, dosa and moha. Is it more or less now, I do not know. How we see the world depends on the citta. Less ignorance is always beneficial. Thanks for both of your contributions. Nina. Op 17-sep-2007, om 5:47 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > I have rodents in my house's attic plus several wasp nests around the > house. Every time I thought about "getting rid" of them, I had to > suppress that thought and replace it with a kind understanding, "they > seem to like my house, let them live in peace". Besides, there is no > way to stop killing once started, since more of the same kind will > come again. They like my house ! #76446 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ‘person’" - "The controversy on ‘person’ is ended" sarahprocter... Dear James & Scott, We were discussing the meaning of 'state of being' in :SN: 22:152 "Seeing thus....He understands:'......there is no more for this state of being.'" (Bodhi transl). This is also how all the other suttas end in the same section under 'Views' (Di.t.thivaggo) . I have some sympathy with any confusion over the phrase 'no more for this state of being' and thank James for questioning our interpretations of it as suggesting an end of being in the sense of an end of samsara, an end of further births, with no 'Being' or satta involved. I do wonder a little at B.Bodhi's translation here and checked a little further. The full Pali for the last paragraph is: "Eva.m passa.m bhikkave, sutavaa ariyasaavako ruupasmimpi nibbindati. Vedanaapi nibbindati sa~n~naayapi, nibbindati sa.mkhaaresupi nibbindati. Vi~n~naa.nasmimpi nibbindati. Nibbinda.m virajjati. Viraagaa vimuccati. Vimuttasmi.m vimuttamiti'~naa.na.m hoti. Khii.naa jaati vusita.m bhrahmacariya.m. Kata.m kara.niiya.m naapara.m itthattaayaati pajaanaaitti." The translation given on Mettanet.org is: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta3/21-Khandha\ -Samyutta/03-05-Ditthivaggo-e.html "Monks, the learned noble disciple, seeing it thus, turns from matter, feelings, perceptions, intentions, and consciousness. Turning, looses interest and is released. Released, he knows, 'I am released, birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived to the end, duties are done, and I have nothing more to wish'." Of interest, I thought, is the following translation and note (especially the second one**) in MN4, Bhayabherava Sutta (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl): "When I knew and saw thus, my mind was liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it was liberated, there came the knowledge: 'It is liberated.'* I directly knew: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being."** Footnotes: *"According to MA, the phrase "When I knew and saw thus" refers to insight and the path, which reaches its climax in the path of arahantship; the phrase "my mind was liberated" shows the moment of the fruit; and the phrase "there came the knowledge: 'it is liberated' " shows reviewing knowledge (see Vism XX11, 20-21), as does the next sentence beginning "I directly knew." **"This is a stock canonical announcement of final knowledge or arahantship. MA explains that the statement "Birth is destroyed" means that any type of birth that might have arisen if the path had not been developed has been rendered incapable of arising by the development of the path. The "holy life" that has been lived is the holy life of the path (maggabrahmacariya). The phrase "what had to be done has been done" (kata.m kara.niiya.m) indicates that the four tasks of the noble path -fully understanding suffering, abandoning its origin, realising its cessation, and developing the path - have now all been completed for each of the four supramundane paths. "The fourth phrase, naapara.m itthattaaya, is glossed by MA thus: "Now there is no need for me to develop the path again for 'such a state', i.e., for the sixteenfold function (of the path) or for the destruction of the defilements. Or alternatively: after 'such a state,' i.e., the continuum of aggregates now occurring, there is no further continuum of aggregates for me. These five aggregates, having been fully understood, stand like trees that are cut at the root. With the cessation of the last consciousness, they will be extinguished like a fire without fuel." I have opted for the second of these interpretations, but take 'itthattaaya' as a dative. The word, which literally means "the state of this" or "the state of thus," implies manifestation in a concrete state of existence. Nanamoli had rendered" There is no more of this beyond." S: Perhaps Nanamoli's rendering was less ambiguous? Metta, Sarah ====== #76447 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:48 am Subject: Visuddhimagga 190 and Tiika (part I). nilovg Visuddhimagga 190 (part I). Intro to Vis. 190-192: Previously, the link of the Dependent Origination was explained which is: kamma-formations conditions vi~n~naa.na, vipaakacitta. Also the amount of ruupas produced by kamma was mentioned. In the preceding sections, beginning at 186, the link: vi~n~naa.na conditions naama/ruupa is explained. Naama stands here for the cetasikas arising together with vi~n~naa.na, as we have seen. These cetasikas are also vipaaka, conditioned by kamma. The amount of ruupas produced by kamma are mentioned again, but now they are seen under the aspect of the link: vi~n~naa.na conditions naama/ruupa. As we shall see, there are many kinds of condition by way of which one dhamma is conditioned by another dhamma. That is why the different types of condition were mentioned before (Vis. 66-100). In the preceding section it was explained that the egg-born and womb- born beings without sex have the minimal amount of ruupas, since kamma produces only the two decads with bodysense and heart-base. The decad of bodysense consists of bodysense, the eight inseparable ruupas of the four great Elements of solidity, cohesion, heat and motion, and in addition colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence, and also life-faculty, jiivitindriya, a ruupa present in all groups produced by kamma. As to the decad of heartbase, this consists of the same amount of ruupas, but instead of bodysense there is heart-base, the physical base of rebirth-consciousness. In the case of womb-born beings with sex kamma produces three decads, in addition there is the sex decad. In the following sections there are ways of rebirth with a greater amount of ruupas. The produced ruupas are counted in each case, but there are substractions so as not to count the kinds of ruupa more than once. Also the maximum amount of ruupas has been given. ***** Text Vis.190: At the moment of rebirth-linking of those of Brahmaa's Retinue, among apparitionally born beings, ------- N: The Pali text has brahmakaayikaadiina: to begin with Brahma’s retinue. This applies to those who are reborn in the ruupa-brahma planes. -------- Text Vis.: four organic continuities are manifested as materiality, that is, the decads of eye, ear, and physical basis, and the ennead of the life faculty, and three immaterial aggregates. So in their case in detail these forth-two states, namely, thirty nine states as concrete materiality and three immaterial aggregates, should be understood as 'mentality-materiality with consciousness as condition'. ------- N: The ruupa-brahmas are of spontaneous rebirth, and they have at birth the decads of eyesense and earsense, and that is: the eight inseparable ruupas, the life-faculty and in addition to these nine ruupas the eyesense, respectively the earsense. Moreover, there is for them the decad of the heartbase and the nonad of life faculty. This nonad consists of the eight inseparable ruupas and life faculty. Together with the three naama-khandhas that are the cetasikas accompanying the rebirth-consciousness, there are forth-two dhammas counted. --------- Text Vis.: But omitting repetitions and so cancelling twenty-seven instances of materiality [nine each] from three of the organic continuities, fifteen states remain. ------- N: When counting the different types of ruupas and avoiding counting them more than once, three times nine are subtracted: the eight inseparable ruupas and the lifefaculty. Thus, fifteen dhammas remain. ******* Nina. #76448 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:41 am Subject: Response to Phil - Part 2 sukinderpal Hi Phil, Part 2. ================== > Ph: Well, yes, if one has time for it. I would love to be like Tep > and others who take the time to develop thoroughly reasoned, text > based discussions to try to point out the shortcomings/glaring flaws > in the AS approach, but don't have time. And as I said, perhaps it > is best to just let her be, for me. Sukin: From my perspective the only thing shown to either side of the debates is each other's "own" position. :-) But this is one reason I am more interested in discussing the basics, such as what is Sila, Samadhi, Panna, Jhana, Satipatthana and so on. But maybe not, because we like to think that we already know these things and would rather move on. But do we really? ================== > Even when I was listening with respect and deep attention to her > and therefore resented the activity at DSG of those who attacked > her, the reason was not that I wanted her to be respected, but that > I thought useful Dhamma discussion is between those who are > basically on the same track, and can help guide along that track. > I'm sure there is a place to learn from debate between people whose > approaches are radically different, but that's not for me, not now. Sukin: But the Dhamma is one. The resistance to A. Sujin's approach seems to be more a matter of view/interpretation of the Dhamma itself. I don't like to make such distinctions as the Sutta vs. Abhidhamma approach, because I see difference only in formulation. Those who object to the Abhidhamma and commentary interpretation of the Suttas are the ones who bring this up and I consider this an unnecessary distraction. =================== > So these days I would love to discuss only with peole who are on > the same track as me. I could still learn a lot from that. Sukin: Personally I believe that A. Sujin's teaching is very comprehensive, but more importantly being geared towards the understanding of present moment realities no matter what, is enough for me. Nina's, Sarah's and others' writings are also very helpful. I therefore can do without "other" views, not to mention debates. But of course, there remain in me, plenty of conditions for indulging in them. ;- ) =================== > Ph: Sukin, maybe I'm nothing but a bookstore Buddhist seeking > solace through Dhamma, but I have seen a very noticeable momentum > building towards mindfulness, wholesomeness, clarity in my life. Sukin: If indeed sati and other wholesome dhammas are accumulating, why resist hearing about them and the conditions which lead to the same from A. Sujin? Is it because her approach demands more precision and implies greater sincerity towards one's own experiences especially when considering that these are anatta and beyond control? =================== > I ascribe this to the meditation practice I am following. (As much of > a hodgepdge as it is.) I'M sure the Abhidhamma study I did for a > couple of years is helping as well, and I hope I return to > abhidhamma study again. Sukin: In reality there are only dhammas performing their specific functions involved. Believing in stories about the past leading to the present and on to the future, can very well be done without. They serve not only to obscure, but also mislead. ================== > AS's approach eventually turned me off it, > but if I get some clearance from her approach I might get into it again. Sukin: You probably already explained this more than once, but if you don't mind, I'd like to hear about it again. ================== > Should also be noted that my goals in Dhamma are pretty basic. I > want to reduce the prevalence of gross defilements reaching the > transgression level, that's all. Sukin: But the Buddhadhamma itself demands nothing less than the total eradication of ignorance and with it the other kilesas, beginning with "Wrong View". So as Putthujanas we are faced with the task of having to determine whether or not our views of the Dhamma is right, if not to correct them and if so to deepen the understanding. It seems that it must be due to wrong interpretation of the Dhamma that some aim at reducing certain akusala dhammas with no due consideration about the danger and notoriety of "self-view"…. ================== To continue in Part 3. Metta, Sukin #76449 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:42 am Subject: Response to Phil - Part 4 sukinderpal Hi Phil, Part 4. ================== > The mind is buurning with greed, hatred and > delusion and *I*, Phil, intend to do something about it. Insight > into anatta will deepen, or not. I think the annica/dukkha dynamic > is where I am soaking these days... Sukin: But the understanding of these goes more or less together, no? Why do you think Anatta has been expressed in terms of Anicca? ================== > Sukin, I just have to say one thing. I heard you say in a talk > once "I hardly ever read suttas." I think that's very tragic, please > reconsider! :) Sukin: Thanks for being concerned. It is not that I don't prefer the Suttas or something. Conditions are such that I am only able to read DSG and nothing more, not even any of A. Sujin's books. But I do understand one thing, "conditions rule". :-) I therefore have no reason to feel bad about not being able to read more. ================== > And I also heard you say "I have never had a moment > of sati" or something like that. Betty said "you probably have." You > bloody well better have, my friend, or you're a right nutter! :) Sukin: Again I appreciate your concern. I don't remember the context, but I suspect that it may have been in reaction to someone else's concern over his or her own lack of satipatthana. But of course I am not sure about my own experiences, whether there was satipatthana or just another form of thinking. Other levels of sati I have no doubt about, namely dana, sila and such. Also sati at the level of Suttamaya panna and Cintamaya panna must arise relatively often. I am however not attached to having satipatthana arise. Being satisfied to have found and gotten the chance to consider the Dhamma the way that I have come to understand it. This I believe places me on solid ground, unlike those of other interpretations which I consider to be quite wobbly. ;-) ================== > The AS approach to sati is too difficult to understand. Lodewijk > has listened to it for years and says he still doesn't understand it. > That shows that AS is not teaching it properly, I suspect. Sukin: Too difficult in relation to tanha! To panna on the other hand, even when very little, it is always good to know the truth, and this includes any signs of self-deception. ================== > Thanks to you and all students of AS for your patience with my > vitriol. I really do think it's going to be "over and out" for me > soon. Perhaps we can talk at another forum on occasion, or I'll drop > by. Yes, that's what I should do. Sukin: I'm sure my own posts demand much patience on the part of most if not all members here. And I hope you do not mind this one since it appears that you are not keen in continuing the discussions and I have argued with almost everything you wrote. But you may not even have read till here. :-) ============ End of response. Metta, Sukin #76450 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:41 am Subject: Response to Phil - Part 1 sukinderpal Hi Phil, Part 1. =================== > I think it would be great if you could write more - not for me, > personally, because I am getting away from Acharn Sujin, but as a > person who hears her teaching every week I'm sure many here would benefit. Sukin: Many different cittas involved, very few of which are kusala. Lots of attachment in my case, how beneficial can that be. ;-) =================== > I think you all will find that I will no longer be a dojo buster. > AS has her place in the world, and when it comes to the internet, > this is it. I will come to let her be, I think, and let all who find > benefit in her teaching be as well. Sukin: I have wanted to ask you and others about this. Many here consider DSG one of the best internet forums in terms of content, but at the same time do not quite agree with A. Sujin's interpretation of the Dhamma. What do you tell yourself about us, those who do agree with her? I suspect that there must be quite a bit of misrepresentation involved and therefore, I think, it would be good that you express them. Of course I too often misinterpret others and in fact when Sarah once suggested to James that they switch sides in debate, I thought that it was a great idea. I saw that as an opportunity for members of opposing positions to get a chance to find out if they *really* understood the other's position. But at the time James didn't approve of the idea and since I considered him the expert, I dropped my own. ================== > Ph: Before I read any further, let me say that afterwards I > thought this sounded a bit dumb. Experimented with, yes, but under > the influence or with the guidance of a teacher and dhamma friends > who are following a similar path. Sukin: This to me sounds equally dangerous. If you consider your teacher an "expert" in the method, what chance is there that you might question him or the method? And given that any given ways of observation lead more or less to pre-determined conclusions about that which is observed, are not we then caught? =================== > In the future I hope I will be > able to tap the minds/experience of people here who practice > meditation on the breath. Maybe next year, at that other site. Sukin: But you might want to ask, "What understanding about the Dhamma is being developed?" I think to be interested in "another's" experience in meditation is wrong. In the end the only thing of value is the Dhamma. The interest should therefore be towards "understanding" and not "experience". With the former we are faced with the question, "what do we understand NOW?" and I consider this the only real test with regard not only to panna, but also sacca and saddha. If on the other hand the concern is with `experience', there is tendency to think in terms of different situations, i.e. on and off the cushion etc. One is then involved in stories about how these are *different* and feel justified in thinking in terms of "doings" and "situations". And do you see the irony here? Us the so called Abhidhammikas are accused of being "theoretical" as opposed to "practical", yet here the interest is in what is going on `now'. The meditators on the other hand, who think themselves to be practical, are forever escaping the present moment into ideas about the past and future and feel very justified in doing so! :-/ ================== > Ph: I am more with the Thai forest guys now. I find the saydaws > are very stirring when it comes to Dhamma talks, and I still listen, > but the meditation technique is a little too rigid and there is a > little too much of a cult-like feeling with respect to Mahasi > Sayadaw. (eg, all participants at retreats listening to a recorded > talk by him) We'll see. For abhidhamma, they are the best, certainly. Sukin: To me Abhidhamma is Dhamma and Dhamma is Abhidhamma. When you say that the Sayadaws are "best" at Abhidhamma, I therefore think that you refer to the Texts, as in one of the Three Baskets. I wouldn't want to encourage this too much, believing that any part of the Tipitaka should be approached with the aim of understanding one's moment to moment experiences. If this attitude has yet to arise after coming into contact with the Dhamma, then in studying the Texts the risk is there of holding the snake by the wrong end. Therefore as far as I am concerned, any knowledge of the Abhidhamma exhibited, does not impress me. ================== > And for rousing talks to encourage people to overcome > gross defilements, they are unparalleled. Sukin: You seem to believe that gross defilements can somehow be dealt with by practices other than the N8FP. I wish you would seriously reconsider this, since not only is Satipatthana the "one and only way", but most defilements remain virtually untouched even at the stages of insight…. ================== To continue in Part 2, Metta, Sukin #76451 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:42 am Subject: Response to Phil - Part 3 sukinderpal Hi Phil, Part 3. ================== > So my learning curve, my ability to > see clear results from the Dhamma is steep, I can see big wholesome > changes. All this talk about Ariyans is irrelevant to me now, but > that might change someday. Sukin: All this talk about Ariyans may actually serve to remind one to be more truthful towards one's own experience. The "big wholesome changes" may not be as we think it to be. Stories about how I was and am can be quite misleading. ================== > The AS approach may really be good Dhamma > for people who do not need firm guidance on the sila front. Fr those > of us that do (and frankly, I think that' all of us, negating what I > just wrote!) this talk of abstaining from evil deeds not being > kusala if there is self involved is pretty unhelpful. Sukin: Why should you think that considering dhammas to be `conditioned and anatta' somehow takes one away from considering the value of Sila? In fact understanding sila as just another conditioned arising and not something that a "self" has or does only makes any future instance of sila more pure. The concern about Sila as you express seems to be rooted in `self-view'. And it is this self-view which most definitely is *not* wholesome. So why shouldn't it be discouraged? ================== > AS has *got* to learn that different Dhamma approaches are > suitable for different people with different needs. She is a > terribly inflexible teacher, leaning on strict adherence to > the "ancient texts" no doubt. Sukin: No, there are only dhammas and A. Sujin in many words tries to make us understand this. This she does with wisdom, metta and karuna. Any `other' teachings by teachers which do not encourage such an outlook and instead causes one to be more interested in self, selves and situations, are the ones the sasana can do well without. People approach the Teachings with self-view and tanha leads them to find what they seek for. The Forest tradition that you are now so interested in, look at one of its pioneers, Ajahn Mun. This man related stories about meeting previous Buddha and Arahats!! This is self-view gone wild and being passed off as Dhamma. :-/ And I'm sure it all started from demands by lobha for Dhamma to be more palatable. ================== > Other teachers turn to the same texts, > and provide the kind of protective guidance beginners needs to get > started with the heavy lifting. Sukin: Other teachers turn to the same texts with wrong understanding. The result is the "blind leading the blind". ================== > Ph: Right. But I'm afraid I don't by into the pariyatti > patipati > approach. I think there is an idea that perfected intellectual > udnerstanding falls into direct understanding, just slides on in. I > think this is a kind of belief in magic, that belief in rites and > rituals. Listen listen listen and PING! I don't believe in that. Sukin: It appears like magic perhaps because you have a wrong mental picture of the process. Firstly I believe that there is no well defined line drawn between pariyatti and patipatti and therefore it is never a matter of first perfecting pariyatti. But yes, it *is* a powerful condition. Not only does one need to keep hearing and considering the Dhamma before any of the insight stages have been reached, but also after and on up till Arahatta as well. So is it belief in magic and rite and ritual or is it "understanding" about particular conditions and how these arise beyond control and which even an ariyan continues to experience? In any case leaving out any comparison to magic, do you not see the importance of hearing and considering the Teachings? If so, to what particular suggestion in the Teachings and at which point does one decide to then "do" something, namely to "practice"? And if you don't agree with the pariyatti -> patipatti -> pativedha formulation, what is your opinion about the Sutta-, Cinta- and Bhavana- maya panna relationship? ================== > I think "formal meditation" is the way to go. The "self" involved > is much clearer when close attention can be paid to the fleetingness > of what is going on. Yes, close attention can arise anytime, > anywhere, of course. But I am interested in probabilities. Results- > oriented? Absolutely. Sukin: If that has been the case, I find it strange that `self-view' is still being encouraged. Also why is `formal sitting' seen as more likely to allow dhammas to be observed given that there are *only dhammas* arising and falling away, all equally fleeting and anatta? I would suggest that it is rather a matter of having more attention to certain experiences conditioned in part by a decision to do so. This however is *not* satipatthana or even kusala of any kind, but "thinking" differently under a different situation. We can all be trained to note and observe certain concepts, take for example, a `bird watcher', he notices sounds and visual signs of birds which others don't. The Buddhist believing that he is supposed to observe concepts (of realties to be sure), of particular kind, i.e. citta, cetasika and rupa, sets out to observe them, and voila, he does! But this is `thinking' and nothing more. Some of this, especially at the peak of any meditation session, is manifested as being `calm and concentrated'. Very, very alluring and misleading. But taken as being what the Buddha taught is actually an insult to his great wisdom. He did not go through all that he did to come to realize and consequently teach just this, did he? ================== To continue in Part 4, Metta, Sukin #76452 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:49 am Subject: Visuddhimagga 191, 192 and Tiika (part II) nilovg Visuddhimagga 191, 192. Text Vis.191: In the sense-sphere becoming, seven organic continuities are manifested as materiality, and also three immaterial aggregates at the moment of rebirth-linking of the remaining kinds of apparitionally born or of the moisture-born possessing sex and matured sense bases. --------- N: The Tiika explains as to that the apparitionally born and the moisture-born should be seen as remaining, after taking into account the egg-born and those born by way of the womb. Sometimes they have seven decads, sometimes less. We read in T.A. (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 247): The Tiika states that he added ‘in the sense-sphere becoming’, because those born in the aruupa-brahma planes are not taken into account here, since they have no ruupas. --------- Text Vis.: So in their case in detail these seventy-three states, namely, seventy instances of concrete materiality and three immaterial aggregates, should be understood as 'mentality-materiality with consciousness (vi~n~naa.n) as condition'. But omitting repetitions and so cancelling fifty-four material instances [nine each] from six of the organic continuities, nineteen states remain. ------- N: So as to avoid counting ruupas more than once, six times nine ruupas which are the eight inseparable ruupas and the life-faculty, are substracted; thus, fifty-four ruupas are subtracted. The remaining sixteen ruupas together with the three naama-khandhas make together nineteen dhammas. The Tiika refers to Visuddhimagga 155-157, to the section dealing with: kammaformations condition vi~n~naa.na and to vi~n~naa.na being mixed or unmixed with ruupa. We read in Vis 156.: . The six deva-planes belong to the sense-sphere. As we have seen in a preceding section, the Tiika states as to the pair 'mixed and unmixed' (missam amissan”ti), that this refers to being mixed with vi~n~naa.na, ruupa arising together with the rebirth- consciousness and this happens in the cases where naama and ruupa arise together at rebirth, thus, in the planes where there are five khandhas. In those planes kamma produces at rebirth the rebirth- consciousness and also ruupas. The Tiika explains that in those preceding sections that deal with the link: kamma-formations condition vi~n~naa.na, the number of dhammas has not been given, that is: the amount of ruupas and the three naama-kkhandhas. In the sections that deal with ‘vi~n~naa.na conditions naama and ruupa’, the amount of ruupas and also the three naama-khandhas including cetasikas are counted together as dhammas. --------- Text Vis.: This is the maximum. But at minimum the computation of 'mentality-materiality with consciousness as condition' in the rebirth-linking of those who lack such and such organic continuity can be understood in brief and detail by reducing it appropriately. [The blind, for instance, lack the eye decad.] ------ N: The blind lack the eyedecad, the deaf lack the eardecad and those born blind and deaf lack both the eyedecad and eardecad. Some beings may be blind but not deaf, or both blind and deaf. Some beings have only tastingsense, bodysense and heartbase, they lack the other senses and the ruupa that is sex. -------- Text Vis.: 192. For mentality-materiality immaterial beings have only the three [mental] aggregates; while non-percipient beings have only the life- faculty ennead, and that represents materiality. ---------- Conclusion: there is a great variety of kusala kamma and akusala kamma committed in the lives of beings and thus kamma can condition birth in different planes of existence, happy planes and unhappy planes, births by different ways of generation, that is egg-born, birth by way of the womb, by way of moisture or by spontaneous generation. For some beings there is the minimal amount of ruupas at birth, and for some, with all the senses complete at birth, the maximum amount. This is not by chance, it is due to kamma, a deed done in the past that has been accumulated. The amount of produced ruupas (concrete matter) has been counted in the different cases of birth, but the Tiika also states (in Vis. 189) that the ruupas that are inherent in each ruupa as characteristic: growth, continuity and decay of ruupa, are present. They are not concrete matter, but they are characteristics. Each ruupa that arises is immediately on its way to decay. Thus, all the units of ruupa present at rebirth that have been counted are ephemeral. Also the cetasikas that are the three naama-khandhas fall away immediately, they are like a flash of lightning. If there is more understanding of the conditions for rebirth it will be clearer that in the five khandha planes it is naama and ruupa that are born, naama and ruupa which do not last and are non-self. ****** Nina. #76453 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Nina, It is good that you had not heard of kali-yuga before, and that you are optimistic. In Burma we are told of four ages of earth. Some believe, some do not believe. (1) krata-yuga, when there are all good people on earth. (2) tretaa-yuga, when there are 3 good people to 1 evil people. (3) dvaaparaa-yuga, when there are 2 good people to 2 evil people. (4) kali-yuga, when there are 1 good people to 3 evil people. They say that we are now in kali-yuga. As there are more evil people on earth, it is the age of vice, misery and bad luck. I cannot find other yugas in the Dictionary but I find kali-yuga in Rhys Davids Dictionary on page 199. Anyway, it is good that you do not believe it. I am neutral, not believe, and not not-believe. If what they say is correct, the future of people on earth will be getting worse than getting better. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han and Tep, > Han: the age of kali-yuga, I had not heard of > before. I am more > optimistic. #76454 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:11 am Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 1 philofillet Hi Sukin Just wanted to thank you for your thorough response - I do pop in now and then to scan messages, but my internet time is way too limited now to respond - and I want to keep it that way! I've decided not to post anymore until I've made some progress with my career. It could be several years, who knows? But when I do return, I'll start with your post, as a kind of check on where I'm at. Thanks again! Look forward to talking more with you and everyone when ...ahem...conditions permit. Metta, Phil > Sukin: Many different cittas involved, very few of which are kusala. Lots > of attachment in my case, how beneficial can that be. ;-) #76455 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:12 am Subject: Perfections Corner (16) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 10: The Perfection of Equanimity, taken from the book “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ We read about truthfulness: “Truthfulness is the opposite of lobha because it proceeds in accordance with fact, no matter whether others render help or inflict harm.” Because of truthfulness we can know what is right and what is wrong, no matter in what circumstances we are. We read about determination: “Determination is the opposite of these three defilements since, after vanquishing the vicissitudes of the world, it remains unshakeable in fulfilling the requisites of enlightenment in the way they have been undertaken.” Determination is the opposite of the defilements of attachment, aversion and ignorance. We should know of ourselves whether we have already firm determination as to the development of kusala or not yet. This is necessary so that we become unshakable in accomplishing it. Our determination can easily vacillate, it may not be firm, and our confidence may not be steady. We read about mettaa: “Loving-kindness is the opposite of greed, hatred, and delusion, through its seclusion from the hindrances.” The hindrances (niivara.na) are: sensuous desire (kaamacchanda), ill-will (vyaapaada), sloth and torpor (thiina-middha), restlessness and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca) and doubt (vicikicchaa). It is said that lovingkindness is the opposite of lobha because it is free from the hindrances. Only paññå can know whether there are hindrances or not. If there is no paññå one may erroneously believe that there is mettaa. In reality there may be lobha, which is the hindrance of sensuous desire. Paññå is essential, and it is also the factor which causes all kusala further to develop. ------------------------------ To be continued. Metta, Han #76456 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ÁÑerson¡¦quot; - "The controversy on ÁÑerson¡¦is ended" dcwijeratna Dear Sarah, Thank you for your long e-m. Here are some comments on that: > S: I understand 'the world's usage' or 'conventional discourse' (vohaara) to just refer to common language which the Buddha and arahants also used. It can be used with the vision of an ariyan or the vision of the puthujjana. DC: For me there is only one language; that is conventional language. That was also the language used, I believe by the Buddha, the arahants etc. How can we understand any other language? > S: On it's own, the use of common language, say, talk about computers and people, doesn't imply right or wrong view. It's the understanding that counts. DC: I can't imagine how one can use language without a view. Lnguage is just an instrument. Right and wrong is the view. That is how it appears to me. > S: Well, we do read about it and begin to understand the Dhamma. The more the Dhamma is understood, the closer we come to understanding the arahant's vision, however far off that maybe! DC: Here my understanding is different. What the Buddha says is that you need to travel the path (Fourth Noble Truth) to understand the Four Noble Truths. When you read Dhamma if you can understand it, travelling the path is superflous. > S: So can we say 'Vohaaramattena' means 'only' or 'confined to conventional (speech)' or 'mere expressions' (as given in the translation above), as opposed to 'ultimate' (paramattha) ? DC: They (matta and mattha) are two completely different words as can be seen from spellings. > S: I don't quite follow you. I think the verse clearly means that the arahant skillfully uses the language, but without any illusion of 'bowl', 'robe, and 'people' being anything other than conventional terms. There's no misunderstanding of the khandhas at such times. DC: This is rather a minor point or ait could be a major point. The Pali is 'so kusalo loke sam~n~na.m viditvaa vohara mattena vohareyyaathi.' How I understand this sentence is: that arahant (kusalo) knowing the usage of the world (conventional usage) , uses that accordingly. .... .... S: No, it's in the commentary, but the commentary spells out what is intended in the sutta. DC: Yes, what I wanted to highlight is the fact that it is in the commentary and as far as my recollection goes the author is not given. And it is difficult to take the interpretations in the commentaries as authoratative. > S: Cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana are paramattha dhammas, paramattha sacca. The Dhamma is about khandhas, dhatus, namas and rupas - all paramattha sacca. DC: My difficulty is here, What is meant by the word paramattha. Parama is not difficult. We can say it is ultimate. Really even this comes from 'paara' meaning the other shore. But what do you mean by attha. Dictionaries give meanins such as benefit, welfare, meaning and so on. But I can't find connection to truth here. .... > S: Cittas and cetasikas are ultimate realities (in the plural). Seeing is real now. It arises, it passes away, it has a characteristic which can be known. It experiences a visible object. Visible object is real. Again, it has a characteristic, it can be directly known. So too for hearing, hardness, like, dislike or thinking. However, 'computer', 'chair' and 'person' are ideas, however well-founded they may be. When we look at the computer screen now, what is seen is visible object. When we touch the keyboard, what is experienced throught he body-sense is hardness or heat. Nibbana is also a reality. It has its characteristic which is directly experienced by lokuttara cittas. It is not a concept at such times. It is not imagined. Of course, now as we talk, there are concepts about these realities, so it's important to differentiate the reality from the concept. DC: Visible object is real. Nibbana is also a reality. Does this mean that both are ultimate realities. .... >S: When you refer to the Pali canon, I think it's very clear that this (the Pali canon) includes the Ti-pitaka. The Tipitaka includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka. I personally think you are missing out on a lot if you disregard this essential component! DC: My apoligies, I should have used the word Pali Sutta Pitaka or Nikayas excluding some portions of Khuddhaka Nikaya, which are patently of late origin. > S: The 'general consensus' of the ancient commentaries certainly includes the Abhidhamma Pitaka as being included in the texts recited at the First Council, albeit in a different format. DC: Existence of many Abhidhamma Pitakas is my compelling reason to consider that it was o flate origin. What was recited at the First Council according to the Pali Commenataries is the Five Nikayasa. Even the word Pitaka is not meantioned. But these matters of history, when I said consensus, I referred to Historians. >S: I'll look forward to reading your further comments and contributions, DC. You'll have noted that almost every topic is a 'Pandora's Box' here:-)). DC: Many thanks for those kind words. I have been looking ar some of the discussions going. Some of them seem to be just arguing for the sake oa arguing. I would keep off such things. >S: We can certainly put aside this last issue if you'd prefer. I think the discussion about paramattha dhammas is the most important, but I prefer to look for assistance to the Abhidhamma and commentaries as well as the suttas. Many here, like you, prefer to stick to the suttas. That's fine! DC: Sarah, I think we need to make a decision here. Whether we want to study Dhamma (teaching of the Buddha) or later developments (really corruptions of Dhamma)? Otherwise we will not have a common subject for the discussions. Please think about this and respond. Metta, Sarah D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76457 From: "rahula_80" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:47 am Subject: Jose M. Sanz-Tonnelier rahula_80 Hi, I have not been posting for a very long time. Perhaps, this should not be discussed here. But have you read the latest news about Ajahn Yanatharo (Ajahn Jose)? He used to post here, didn't he? Can anyone tell me what really happen? Thanks, Rahula #76458 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "there is no �person�" - "The controversy on �person� is ended" scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and James), Thanks for the further clarifications: Sarah: "...I have some sympathy with any confusion over the phrase 'no more for this state of being' and thank James for questioning our interpretations of it as suggesting an end of being in the sense of an end of samsara, an end of further births, with no 'Being' or satta involved. I do wonder a little at B.Bodhi's translation here and checked a little further. The full Pali for the last paragraph is...Perhaps Nanamoli's rendering was less ambiguous?" Scott: I was reading about pa.itsambhida (Message #26420) and came across the following bit, which seems a propos: Sarah: "More on Pali study - a conversation between K.Sujin and myself: KS: The point of studying is to understand realities, otherwise what you think you know by words in this life in this language, next life is in a different language and so you forget everything. S: What about Pali being the real Buddha-vacana... KS: What's the objective in studying it? S: Different people have different objectives. Some people feel they can only understand the Teachings by studying in Pali. By reading and studying the Pali, the meaning will be deeper.. KS: Only for those who already know realities. For example, Pali may have been your language in your last life, now you've forgotten it. You might have recited lots of Pali suttas and abhidhamma, now there is no understanding of Pali. There can be understanding, no matter what language. S: We should be grateful that the Teachings have come down to us in Pali because this is the way they've kept their authenticity. We should be grateful for those who've learnt Pali to transmit and translate... KS: ... to understand reality correctly. Otherwise there's no point just to remember sounds of Pali and meanings of the words. S: So one just studies or learns as much as is helpful to condition more understanding of reality. KS: Yes. S: What about more study or translation work to help others have access to the Teachings.. KS: to understand reality clearer and better. ..... Later she added that for those who have good understanding, studying Pali is useful but for those who study Pali without understanding, they just follow their wrong views." Sincerely, Scott. #76459 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:28 am Subject: Re: "there is no ÁÑerson¡¦quot; - "The controversy on ÁÑerson¡¦is ended" indriyabala Dear Sarah and DC, - Thank you for another classical discussion/debate on Abhidhamma vs. Sutta. You both are very knowledgable. > DC: Sarah, I think we need to make a decision here. Whether we want to study Dhamma (teaching of the Buddha) or later developments (really corruptions of Dhamma)? Otherwise we will not have a common subject for the discussions. T: As an outsider/observer who highly respects the Abhidhamma principles, while taking the sutta words to the heart for self educating & guiding in the practice in accordance with the Dhamma, I have a few comments to make. 1. The Abhidhamma in the Tipitaka (three baskets) is very deep and very terse. I have a lot of difficulty understanding the 'original' Abhidhamma without very good commentaries to assist me. Therefore, in my humble opinion, the Abhidhamma alone is necessary (to understand the Paramattha dhammas) but not sufficient . 2. The suttas (our Buddha's and the Arahants' discourses) are both necessary and sufficient as guidance to the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path and the development of Satipatthana. I do not think I have painted a picture of myself wearing two hats. Indeed I am wearing three hats (corresponding to the three baskets), the sutta hat is the biggest, however. Tep ==== #76460 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:48 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (”Book of the Tens”, Ch V, § 8, Conditions) that the Buddha said: Monks, these ten conditions must again and again be contemplated by one who has gone forth (from the home). What ten? He must again and again contemplate this fact: I am now come to a state of being an outcast. And this: My very life is dependent on others. And this: I must now behave myself differently. And this: Does the self [1] upbraid me for (lapse from) virtue, or does it not? And this: Do my discerning fellows in the Brahma-life, after testing me, upbraid me for (lapse from) virtue, or do they not? And this: In all things dear and delightful to me there is change and separation. And this: I myself am responsible for my deed, I am the heir to my deed, the womb of my deed, the kinsman of my deed, I am he to whom my deed comes home. Whatever deed I shall do, be it good or bad, of that shall I be the heir. The nights and days flit by for me- who have grown to what? And this: In my void dwelling do I take delight or not? And this: Have I come by any superhuman experience, any excellence of truly ariyan knowledge and insight, whereon when questioned in my latter days [2] by my fellows in the Brahma-life I shall not be confounded? These, monks, are the ten conditions to be again and again contemplated by one who has gone forth (from the home). We read in the Commentary, the “Manorathapúraní”, as to the monk’s life being dependent on others, that this is because of his receiving of the four requisites. His livelihood should be pure and his conduct should be composed, different from laypeople. We read: “The monk who applies himself to the fourfold purity has developed vipassanå. He can reach arahatship”. Vipassanå is the condition for the fourfold purity, satipaììhåna should not be separated from the Vinaya. The purpose of síla should not be pleasant results, such as rebirth in heaven, or honour, it should be the eradication of defilements. When someone applies himself to síla without the development of satipatthåna there is an idea of self who does so, his síla is not pure. Moreover, his síla will not be steadfast; when he is in difficult circumstances he may not be able to observe síla. The sotåpanna who has eradicated through satipaììhåna the wrong view of self is steadfast in síla, he cannot transgress the five precepts, he cannot commit akusala kamma which produces an unhappy rebirth. --------- 1. the citta. 2. At the time of dying, according to the Commentary. ******* Nina. #76461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:49 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 4, no 5 nilovg Dear friends, Lokuttara cittas are conditioned by sobhana jhåna-factors by way of jhåna-condition. The jhåna-factors are included in the enlightenment factors [1] which perform their functions so that enlightenment can be attained. The magga-citta (lokuttara kusala citta) eradicates defilements in accordance with the stage of enlightenment which is attained. The jhåna-factors condition the lokuttara citta to be steadfast and highly concentrated on the object which is nibbåna. Thus, nibbåna appears very clearly to the lokuttara citta and there is a high degree of calm. Some people who attain enlightenment have developed samatha and attained jhåna, others have not. For those who have not developed jhåna before attaining enlightenment, the lokuttara cittas are accompanied by the jhåna-factors which are of the same degree as those of the first stage of jhåna. Those who are proficient in jhåna and also develop insight can take jhånacitta as object of insight; jhåna is then the basis of insight. In that way they can become detached from the idea that jhånacitta is self. We read in the “Kindred Sayings”(III, Khandhå-vagga, XXVIII, Kindred Sayings on Såriputta, § 1, Solitude) about a conversation between Såriputta and Ånanda. We read that Ånanda said to Såriputta: “Calm are your senses, friend Såriputta, clear and translucent the colour of your face. In what mood has the venerable Såriputta been spending this day?” “Friend, I have been dwelling aloof from passions, aloof from things evil, with my thought applied and sustained ( with vitakka and vicåra) in first jhåna, which is born of solitude and full of zest (píti) and happiness (sukha). To me thus, friend, the thought never came: ‘It is I who am attaining first jhåna,’ or ‘It is I who have attained first jhåna,’ or ‘It is I who have emerged from first jhåna.’ “ “Surely for a long time have leanings to I-making, to mine-making and to vanity been well rooted out from the venerable Såriputta. That is why it occurs not to the venerable Såriputta: ‘It is I who am attaining first jhåna,’ or ‘It is I who have attained first jhåna,’ or ‘It is I who have emerged from first jhåna.’ “ In the following suttas we read that Såriputta did not take the higher stages of rúpa-jhåna nor the stages of arúpa-jhåna for self. -------- 1. Bodhipakkhiya dhammas, wholesome qualities which should be developed for the attainment of enlightenment. ******* Nina. #76462 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jose M. Sanz-Tonnelier upasaka_howard Hi, Rahula - In a message dated 9/17/2007 8:50:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rahula_80@... writes: Hi, I have not been posting for a very long time. Perhaps, this should not be discussed here. But have you read the latest news about Ajahn Yanatharo (Ajahn Jose)? He used to post here, didn't he? Can anyone tell me what really happen? Thanks, Rahula ================================ My opinion is that going into this, especially in a public forum, is gosspiy and not right speech. With metta, Howard #76463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to Phil - Part 4 nilovg Dear Sukin, Op 17-sep-2007, om 11:42 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > I'm sure my own posts demand much patience on the part of > most if not all members here. --------- No. no, it is very good, do continue. Also a good idea to make four shorter posts. I liked this one: Phil: has listened to it for years and says he still doesn't understand it. > That shows that AS is not teaching it properly, I suspect. > Sukin: Too difficult in relation to tanha! To panna on the other hand, even when very little, it is always good to know the truth, and this includes any signs of self-deception. ------- N: Excellent answer. Difficult for tanha. Knowing self-deception. Lodewijk wanted to answer Phil but does not like writing. He realizes the fault is with him as to understanding. But it is good to be sincere: to what extent do we understand: We do not understand much yet, I would say. Nina. #76464 From: "colette" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (15) ksheri3 Hi Tep, No, I didn't use the Wikipedia versionof the Madhyamaka, I've studied it a little due to the coarse of my studies and now that I'm goi9ng deeper into Tantra I frequently run into a reference of it, to it. > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > Madhyamaka (Also known as Œunyavada) is a Buddhist Mahayaana > tradition popularized by Naagaarjuna and Aœvaghosa. The school of > thought and its subsidiaries are called "Madhyamaka"; those who > follow it are called "Maadhyamikas." > > According to the Maadhyamikas, all phenomena are empty of "self > nature" or "essence" (Sanskrit: Svabhaava), meaning that they have no > intrinsic, independent reality apart from the causes and conditions > from which they arise. > > Madhyamaka is the rejection of two extreme philosophies, and > therefore represents the "middle way" between eternalism (the view > that something is eternal and unchanging) and nihilism (the assertion > that all things are intrinsically already destroyed or rendered > nonexistent. This is nihilism in the sense of Indian philosophy, and > may differ somewhat from Western philosophical nihilism). > .............. > > The definition above suggests that the DSG Abhidhammikas are > Maadhyamikas. But isn't that contradicting to Theravada? colette: It most certainly is that is why I was shocked to find you applying psychology which contradicts the Buddhism de Jour (Theravadan). -------------------------- > > I have also observed Nina's "trip and focus". But why did you say it > was "the De Jour version of Buddhism" ? colette: it is for the masses that do not have time to actually study theory and experimentation as I study it. It's the the "...for Dummies" series of books which show novices how to do something without taking the prescribed educational path. toodles, colette #76465 From: "colette" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:11 pm Subject: Re: "there is no ÁÑerson¡¦quot; - "The controversy on ÁÑerson¡¦is ended" ksheri3 Why Tep, How can you actually say you are an outsider. Notice what DC and Sarah are discussing. they are very trivial and impossible to confirm either for or against. Ah, but we do have, in our society today an exact copy of the same conflict between Sunni and Shia Muslim. Are you, Tep, going to allow yourself to fall victim to terrorism since you will be "pigoen holed" into supporting one side or the other at some time. And then where's that gonna get ya? As for the lack of understanding you have of the abhidharma, well, that takes time and study. I love it since I have experience with psychoogical health care providers and with the institution of psychological mental health. The Abhidharma, for me is wonderful, it's the easiest thing to read it just has a very dry taste to it. Now I've gotta question you here when you say that you study this or that as the means of achieving the end of reaching Sttipatthana. More than likely when you embark on the journey to reach Sattipatthana you will be turned away to a new direction which does not lead to sattipatthana. As for being a basket case, well, aren't we all? toodles, colette #76466 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:34 pm Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 kenhowardau Hi Sukin (and Phil), I am enjoying four-part post very much. ------- S: > The Forest tradition that you are now so interested in, look at one of its pioneers, Ajahn Mun. This man related stories about meeting previous Buddha and Arahats!! This is self-view gone wild and being passed off as Dhamma. :-/ And I'm sure it all started from demands by lobha for Dhamma to be more palatable. --------- This reminds me of a book I told Phil about ('SHAM - How the Self Help Actualization Movement made America helpless' by Steve Salerno.). In a radio interview, the author told the story of a particularly large, strongly built self-help guru who liked to show off his strength as part of his act. He would invite a member of the audience onto the stage, seize him under the arms and lift him off the floor. Then (after putting him down) he would get the volunteer to imagine (actualize) that his feet were rooted to the floor. The guru would try again to lift him up, and guess what! He couldn't! No matter how hard he tried, he couldn't lift the positively-thinking volunteer off the floor. The author then asked the interviewer, How do you think the audience reacted? Did they walk out - insulted - demand their money back? No, not at all. They clapped and cheered and stamped their feet. Ken H #76467 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "there is no ÁÑerson¡¦quot; - "The controversy on ÁÑerson¡¦is ended" rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > > DC: Sarah, I think we need to make a decision here. Whether we want to study Dhamma (teaching of the Buddha) or later developments (really corruptions of Dhamma)? Otherwise we will not have a common subject for the discussions. > +++++++ Dear DC on the homepage of this group it says http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/ "A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition." Notice ancient commentaries are specified. Robert #76468 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Siila indriyabala Dear Han, - Nina mentioned in another post about dragging "too much" on a certain subject, and I knew whom she was thinking about. Now that you have a new topic, so it is allright for me to drag on it a little bit. :>) > Han: Two things. > (1) What do you mean by "Losers are monks, winners are > Mara"? > (2) The kali-yuga is not coming. We are already in it, > according to PTS Dictionary. > T: (1) In any battle/war winning involves killing or the losers often are treated with cruelty; thus winners are Mara. There are stories of kings or rulers who surrendered in order to save lives of innocent people. These losers are monks in that sense. In general, the attitude of winning "at any cost" usually makes the winner merciless like the Mara. On the other hand, one who has peaceful mind (like a good monk) never think about winning or losing, so s/he usually ends up a loser in the tough world of "dogs eat dogs". (2) So you believe that right now in the world three out of four people are vicious. How does that apply to us and other DSG members? :-)) Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thank you very much for your kind interest. > > > Tep: We always have a choice. Just like an old > saying, "Losers are monks, winners are Mara." and I > don't want to be Mara. The vicious cycle can be > severed now and we'll be safe. It is not too late I > think, although the kali-yuga is coming! > #76469 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Tep, (1) Thank you very much for the first point. It is very clear now. (2) Second point, I am neutral. I can't say we are now in Kali-yuga. I cannot also say it is not. How does that apply to us and other DSG members? :-)) No comments! :-)) Respectfully, Han --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Han, - > > Nina mentioned in another post about dragging "too > much" on a certain > subject, and I knew whom she was thinking about. Now > that you have a > new topic, so it is allright for me to drag on it a > little bit. :>) > #76470 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "there is no ‘person’" - "The controversy on ‘person’ is ended" indriyabala Dear Nina, - Thank you very much for the careful-written reply (#76444) that thoroughly addresses the issue of "the world of paramattha dhammas and the world in the conventional sense " from your perspective. You did such a good job that we can say "the case is closed" in the sense that you said everything you could and I also made my points. More discussion would be "dragging on this subject" too much, since there is no way we may reach the same conclusion. Tep === #76471 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:59 pm Subject: Re: "there is no ÁÑerson¡¦quot; - "The controversy on ÁÑerson¡¦is ended" indriyabala Hi Colette, - I appreciated the two messages #76464-5. > [ Taken from Wikipedia, an on-line encyclopedia.] > Madhyamaka is the rejection of two extreme philosophies, and therefore represents the "middle way" between eternalism (the view that something is eternal and unchanging) and nihilism (the assertion that all things are intrinsically already destroyed or rendered nonexistent. This is nihilism in the sense of Indian philosophy, and may differ somewhat from Western philosophical nihilism). > .............. > > Tep: The definition above suggests that the DSG Abhidhammikas are Maadhyamikas. But isn't that contradicting to Theravada? colette: It most certainly is that is why I was shocked to find you applying psychology which contradicts the Buddhism de Jour (Theravadan). T: Good to know that you & I have something to partially agree upon. ............... > Tep: > I have also observed Nina's "trip and focus". But why did you say it was "the De Jour version of Buddhism" ? colette: it is for the masses that do not have time to actually study theory and experimentation as I study it. It's the the "...for Dummies" series of books which show novices how to do something without taking the prescribed educational path. T: I see. In other words, it may be compared to the video instructions on "How to Repair Your Own Computer". .............. colette: Notice what DC and Sarah are discussing. they are very trivial and impossible to confirm either for or against. Ah, but we do have, in our society today an exact copy of the same conflict between Sunni and Shia Muslim. T: That's a satirical comment, Colette. .............. colette: Are you, Tep, going to allow yourself to fall victim to terrorism since you will be "pigoen holed" into supporting one side or the other at some time. And then where's that gonna get ya? T: Nowhere but headache. But that's a danger only for one who doesn't know what he doesn't know. .............. colette: Now I've gotta question you here when you say that you study this or that as the means of achieving the end of reaching Sttipatthana. More than likely when you embark on the journey to reach Sattipatthana you will be turned away to a new direction which does not lead to sattipatthana. T: Then I will use sati to turn the mind back to satipatthana again. Tep === #76472 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:29 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (66) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato XIII. The Section of the Groups of Twenty [Verses] 1. Ambapaaliitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 11 verse: 266. "Ka~ncanassa phalaka.mva samma.t.tha.m, sobhate su kaayo pure mama; so valiihi sukhumaahi otato, saccavaadivacana.m ana~n~nathaa. 266. Formerly my body looked beautiful, like a polished sheet of gold. [Now] it is covered with very fine wrinkles. The utterance of the Speaker of Truth is not false. txt: Ka~ncanaphalaka.mva samma.t.thanti jaatihi"ngulakena makkhitvaa ciraparimajjitasova.n.naphalaka.m viya sobhate. So valiihi sukhumaahi otatoti so mama kaayo idaani sukhumaahi valiihi tahi.m tahi.m vitato valittacata.m aapanno. Pruitt: 266. Like a polished sheet (phalaka.m) of gold means: [my body] looked beautiful like a sheet of gold polished for a long time (cira-parimjjita-sova.n.na-phalaka.m), after rubbing on pure vermilion. It is covered with very fine wrinkles means: now, that body of mine has reached a stage where the skin is wrinkled and very fine wrinkles are spread over it here and there. verse: 267. "Naagabhogasadisopamaa ubho, sobhare su uuruu pure mama; te jaraaya yathaa ve.lunaa.liyo, saccavaadivacana.m ana~n~nathaa. 267. Formerly both my thighs looked beautiful like an elephant's trunk. Because of old age, they are like stalks of bamboo. The utterance of the Speaker of Truth is not false. txt: Naagabhogasadisopamaati hatthinaagassa hatthena samasamaa. Hattho hi idha bhu~njati etenaati bhogoti vutto. Teti uuruyo. Yathaa ve.lunaa.liyoti idaani ve.lupabbasadisaa ahesu.m. 267. Like an elephant's trunk (naaga-bhoga-sadiopamaa) means: exactly like the trunk (hatthena) of an elephant (hatti-naagassa). "The trunk eats (bhu~njati) with it here," so it is called "the one that enjoys (bhogo)". They means: thighs. Like stalks of bamboo (vi.lu-naa.liyo) means: now they are like bamboo stalks (ve.lu-pabba-sadisaa). verse: 268. "Sa.nhanuupurasuva.n.nama.n.ditaa, sobhare su ja"nghaa pure mama; taa jaraaya tilada.n.dakaariva, saccavaadivacana.m ana~n~nathaa. 268. Formerly my calves looked beautiful, possessing delicate anklets, decorated with gold. Because of old age, they are like sticks of sesame. The utterance of the Speaker of Truth is not false. txt: Sa.nhanuupurasuva.n.nama.n.ditaati siniddhama.t.thehi suva.n.nanuupurehi vibhuusitaa. Ja"nghaati a.t.thija"nghaayo. Taati taa ja"nghaayo. Tilada.n.dakaarivaati appama.msalohitattaa kisabhaavena luunaavasi.t.thavisukkhatilada.n.dakaa viya ahesu.m. Ra-kaaro padasandhikaro. 268. Possessing delicate anklets, decorated with gold (sa.nha-nuupura-suva.n.na-ma.n.ditaa) means: decorated with golden anklets (suva.n.na-nupurehi) that are smooth and polished. Calves (ja"nghaa) means: bony lower legs (a.t.thi-ja"nghaayo). They means: those calves. Like sticks of sesame (tila-da.n.dakaa-r-iva) means: [calves] with little flesh and blood, like (viya) dried up sticks of sesame that have been cut and left behind (luunaavasi.t.tha-visukkha-tila-da.n.dakaa) because of their being thin. The letter r makes a euphonic combination of [two] words. ===tbc, connie. #76473 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:42 pm Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 avalo1968 Sukinder and Ken H, Both of you should consider if these kinds of comments directed at a teacher such as Ajahn Mun are useful and reflect well on DSG. Robert A. #76474 From: "colette" Date: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:45 pm Subject: cheering and clapping ksheri3 Hi Ken H, Good analogy there, they transpose nicely, but I think my Sunni and Shia thing was pretty good, but what can I say, when do I cook something that I don't end up eating? I enjoy my cooking. Maybe we can try another flavor: UTILITARIANISM vs. RULE UTILITARIANISM now there's a battle for the late night wrestling fans to watch. But isn't that the point: watching or getting involved. Getting involved means putting yourself on the line, taking risks, etc. Here we have people getting involved and it was starting to accumulate willing victims as Tep was considering his ability to enter the fray. Your analogy happened to apply pages from my book, humor, to show the rediculousness of triffles such as this. There was another post that spoke of the DGS's homepage that, IMO, put this to rest rather nicely, and skillfully! toodles, colette #76475 From: "colette" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:47 am Subject: Re: "there is no ÁÑerson¡¦quot; - "The controversy on ÁÑerson¡¦is ended" ksheri3 Hi Tep, Lets not get too "out there" > > Madhyamaka is the rejection of two extreme philosophies, and > therefore represents the "middle way" between eternalism (the view > that something is eternal and unchanging) and nihilism (the assertion > that all things are intrinsically already destroyed or rendered > nonexistent. This is nihilism in the sense of Indian philosophy, and > may differ somewhat from Western philosophical nihilism). > > .............. > > > > Tep: The definition above suggests that the DSG Abhidhammikas are > Maadhyamikas. But isn't that contradicting to Theravada? > > colette: It most certainly is that is why I was shocked to find you > applying psychology which contradicts the Buddhism de Jour > (Theravadan). > > T: Good to know that you & I have something to partially agree upon. > ............... colette: are you, then, suggesting, in the above comment of agreement you see between us, that you also disagree with the Theravadan (Buddhism de Jour) ----------------------- > colette: Notice what DC and Sarah are discussing. they are very > trivial and impossible to confirm either for or against. Ah, but we > do have, in our society today an exact copy of the same conflict > between Sunni and Shia > Muslim. > > T: That's a satirical comment, Colette. > .............. colette: yes, satire plays a major role but it is also to the point and very heart-felt since it annoys me sooooooooo much that Sunni and Shia are such "craving", "desirous", "lusting", etc, bodies of individuals that they now ridicule their own belief structure through their own petty and insignificant matters that they blown those matters way out of proportion to the philosophy they support and pervert. This same perversion will eventually engulf Sarah and DC as their own personal wars to gratify self get larger and larger. <....> ---------------------------------- > > colette: Are you, Tep, going to allow yourself to fall victim to > terrorism since you will be "pigoen holed" into supporting one side > or the other at some time. And then where's that gonna get ya? > > T: Nowhere but headache. But that's a danger only for one who doesn't > know what he doesn't know. > .............. colette: but that's soooooo useless. Now that I think for the second I had before writing that sentence it would be the exact definition of EXPERIENCE that has to be in order for you, the EXPERIENCER, to be able to see the suttas better. -------------------------------- > colette: Now I've gotta question you here when you say that you study > this or that as the means of achieving the end of reaching > Sttipatthana. More than likely when you embark on the journey to > reach Sattipatthana you will be turned away to a new direction which > does not lead to sattipatthana. > > T: Then I will use sati to turn the mind back to satipatthana again. colette: total cop-out, you won't find sati from the mind's discourse you have to use more skillful means than that to re-focus the mind properly. I could be wrong though. It's a personal thing. toodles, colette #76476 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:56 am Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > Sukinder and Ken H, > > Both of you should consider if these kinds of comments directed at a > teacher such as Ajahn Mun are useful and reflect well on DSG. > > Robert A. > Hi Robert A, I think you'll find our comments were directed at the followers, not the leaders. Ken H #76477 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:20 am Subject: Re: cheering and clapping kenhowardau Hi Colette, Thanks for your comments - glad you approve. I believe a man called Publius Virgilius Maro said (about 2000 years ago), "Mundus vult decipi." The world wishes to be deceived. Some things never change. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > Good analogy there, they transpose nicely, but I think my Sunni and > Shia thing was pretty good, but what can I say, when do I cook > something that I don't end up eating? I enjoy my cooking. > . . . #76478 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:26 am Subject: Re: "there is no �person�Equot; - "The controversy on �person�Eis ended" scottduncan2 Dear Ken, Thanks for the reply: K: "...I might be misunderstanding your question, but the victim of an attack, for example, can have metta for [the concept of] his attacker even while being 'sawn in half' can't he? That doesn't make the attacker kusala in any way (conventional or paramattha)." Scott: No, I was speculating that while the mettaa would be kusala, the thoughts that might go along with mettaa, thoughts about the attacker, would likely only be thoughts - wouldn't have any designation of either kusala or akusala. This would be because the mettaa was a reality while the attacker and the victim of the attack would be concepts. Sincerely, Scott. #76479 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:11 am Subject: The Abyss! bhikkhu0 Friends: By constructing what does one Tumble Down the Abyss? Once, a certain not very well-known Bhikkhu asked the Blessed Buddha : Venerable Sir: What is the steepest & most frightening abyss for downfall? The Blessed Gotama Buddha then pointed out: Bhikkhu: All those ascetics & priests, who do not understand as it really is: This is Suffering; This is Causing Suffering; This is the End of Suffering; This is the Way leading to the End of Suffering, they delight in forming intentions, that lead to birth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair. Delighting in forming such intentions, they generate & accumulate volitional mental constructions, that indeed induce & set off rebirth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair. Unaware of having thus produced their own painful future, they tumble down the abyss of rebirth, aging, & death, tumble down the abyss of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and they tumble down the abyss of utter despair. They are therefore not freed from this rebirth, aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & not freed from despair... I tell you: They are not freed from Suffering!!! However those ascetics & priests who do understand the 4 Noble Truths they do not delight in forming intentions, and therefore do they neither generate nor accumulate volitional mental constructions inducing rebirth, aging, death, sorrow, pain, grief & despair. They are freed from rebirth! I tell you: They are thereby freed from all future Suffering whatsoever! Concise Comment: Any intention that accumulates as the kammic cause of future rebirth, thereby also includes the cause of future mortality & thus Suffering!!! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta NikÄ?ya. [V:449-50] section 56: Saccasamyutta. Thread 42: The Abyss ... Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <....> Forming Intention is thus the real Abyss! And it seems so innocent! #76480 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:54 am Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 avalo1968 Ken A. Actually, Sukinder's comments were directed to Ajahn Mun very specifically. Either way, all of it was better left unsaid (or unwritten in this case), whether it was the followers or the leaders you intended to disparage. I don't want to get into an endless debate about this, so I will leave it at that. Robert A. #76481 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, > > ... > There is no nominee. There is no Swee Boon. Nominee is a concept that > doesn't exist. Swee Boon is a concept that doesn't exist. > > Why are you linking these two concepts that don't even exist > together? Why are you thinking that these two concepts that don't > even exist in the first place have disappeared? > As someone said recently, all speech is conceptual. And to that I would add, the world we live in is a world of concepts. To try to deny that is, in a sense, to live in a fantasy world. At the same time, we understand the Buddha to have taught that in truth and reality there are (= exist) no concepts, only dhammas. So while we live in a world of Swee Boon and Jon, nominee and proposer, we understand (at an intellectual level) that in truth and reality there is no single dhamma that is Swee Boon or Jon; only dhammas that we take in combination to be Swee Boon and Jon. Swee Boon and Jon are 'composites' that are mentally construed out of the experience of multiple individual dhammas. > Have you gone nuts, Jon? I will be submitting an appeal for your > membership to be removed from the gang of Abhidhammikas. > You can try, but I don't fancy your chances. You see, my fellow gang-members to whom you will be appealing are similarly 'nuts' ;-)) Jon #76482 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ÁÑerson¡¦quot; - "The controversy on ÁÑerson¡¦is ended" dcwijeratna Dear Robert, It was not my intention to exclude 'commentaries' from the discussion. It was only to say that we should discuss the same topic; otherwise we would be talking of two different things. I hope that would clarify my statement. I am extremely sorry if it has given room for a different interpretation than the one I intended. With mettaa. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76483 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (16) nilovg Dear Han, highlighting a few points. Op 17-sep-2007, om 13:12 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Determination is the opposite of the defilements of > attachment, aversion and ignorance. We should know of > ourselves whether we have already firm determination > as to the development of kusala or not yet. This is > necessary so that we become unshakable in > accomplishing it. Our determination can easily > vacillate, it may not be firm, and our confidence may > not be steady. -------- N: We should apply this to the present moment. If we do not, we just read and it is only theory, it is only in the book. And this goes for all that we read in this book about the perfections. Lobha, dosa and moha arise time and again. Not always of a heavy degree, they may also be more subtle and then we do not know that they arise. When we feel slightly uneasy for different reasons, such as tiredness, a slight bodily sickness, or bad news we read, or someone else's bad speech, we should know that this is dosa. Or there is a slight attachment accompanied by indifferent feeling after seeing, we want to see, we are attached to seeing. Or we get things for ourselves as we do all the time in daily life. We may not harm others, but still we want to get this thing or that thing for ourselves. Sitting at the table, eaching for this or that dish, wanting to eat. So many moments pass unnoticed. We can learn that determination for kusala, and especially for right understanding of realities, is not firm. It vacillates, there is lack of confidence in kusala. --------- Han quotes: -------- N: Pa~n~naa can know whether there is unselfish love with impartiality, or whether we take selfish affection for metta. It can only be known with regard to the present moment. Also truthfulness is indispensable. How often do we mislead ourselves? As Sukin said: When we help others do we expect esteem or affection in return? We can begin to consider and investigate the citta arising at this very moment. Not being negligent with regard to this is the message we receive from the whole of the Tipitaka. Nina. #76484 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:36 am Subject: Bhikkhu Yanatharo upasaka_howard Hi, all - With regard to what Rahula asked, and as many of you may know, Venerable Yanatharo, known to some as Ajahn Jose or as Dr. Sanz, has been having serious problems with the Australian authorities. In that regard, Bhikkhu Yanatharo asked that I pass along his side of the matter to the list. He has told me that he has been under attack by the police, with accusations along various lines, due to his helping people in the red-light district in his capacity as a medical doctor, especially those afflicted with drug problems and those having HIV/Aids. Bhante has gone into some detail in two messages that he has sent me as regards to the accusations made against him, and he has provided a detailed exposition of the facts from his perspective. If any of you who know Bhante and have been upset by these unfortunate circumstances wish to see the messages he sent me, please write me directly, and I will send you an email that includes the contents of his two messages to me. With metta, Howard #76485 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:53 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 5, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, When we understand which paramattha dhamma síla is, citta and cetasika, it will be clear that the citta with mettå, loving kindness, is síla. For the practice of mettå there should be awareness of the citta. When we develop mettå in daily life, we have goodwill towards our fellowmen, we do not harm them, and that is kusala síla. Once, when someone behaved in an unpleasant way and I said to Khun Sujin, “She does not like us”, Khun Sujin answered, “It does not matter, we like her,” and that is the practice of mettå. We can apply this in any situation when people dislike us. What about our own citta? We are often too slow in our reactions to help others, but when satipatthåna arises there are conditions to move quickly in helping. During our journey one of the buses broke down and there was no seat left for us except in front near the driver. We had to sit near the foodboxes which broke so that bananas went all over the place and were crushed. Khun Sujin thought that we were unconfortable in the midst of all the commotion and she offered her seat; this was an example of helping without hesitation. This was an example reminding us that when there is an opportunity for kusala we should not wait, but perform it immediately. It is difficult to practice síla in every situation. When we have to endure unpleasant behaviour from others it is a test for our patience and endurance. We cannot choose the objects which appear through the six doors, sometimes they are pleasant, sometimes unpleasant. We may be disturbed by someone else, but a “person” is only an object of thinking. In reality there are only nåma and rúpa appearing one at a time. If there can be awareness when we are in difficult situations we can gradually learn that there is not this or that situation which seems to last, but only seeing which experiences visible object, hearing which experiences sound or thinking which thinks of concepts which are not real. Realities arise because of their own conditions, they are beyond control and do not belong to a self. When there is awareness of one object at a time we attach less importance to certain situations. Only one object at a time through one doorway is experienced and it falls away immediately, it does not last. The six doors can be separated, not by “self”, but by paññå. ******* Nina. #76486 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ÁÑerson¡¦quot; - "The controversy on ÁÑerson¡¦is ended" dcwijeratna Dear Tep, I wish to take just one phrase from your post: "classical discussion/debate on Abhidhamma vs. Sutta." To me there is no "Abhidhamma vs. Sutta." I give below some info from Ven. Nyanaponika's Abhidhamma Studies, pp. ix-x. "The Abhidhamma is a comprehensive, systematic treatment of the Buddha's teachings that came to prominence in the Buddhist community during the first three centuries after the Master's death. ... There is some evidence, from the reports of the Chinese Buddhist pilgrims, that most of the old Indian Buddhist schools, if not all, had their own Abhidhamma Pi.takas. However, with the wholesale destruction of Buddhism in India in the twelfth century, all but three canonincal Abhidhammas persished with hardly a trace. The three exceptions are (1) the Thervaada version, in seven books, recorded in Pali; (2) the Sarvastivaada version, also in seven books but completely different from those of the Theravaada; and (3) a work called the Saariputra-abhidharma-sastra, probably belonging to the Dharmaguptaka scool." You can get further details on abhidhamma its origin, its meaning etc. from the Encyclopedia of Buddhism. All abhidhamma pi.takas trace their origin to the Buddha. Today, what is considered as the most authentic--in the sense closest to what the Buddha taught--is the Pali Sutta pi.taka disrearding some books of Khuddhaka Nikaaya. It (khuddhaka Nikaaya) is considered to be of late origin. Study of Abhidhamma for its own sake, most probably, for those who like it, is a rewarding experience. But comparison with the Pali nikayas (sutta pi.taka) doesn't seem to be fair. If you wish I can get you some references available in the Internet. With Mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76487 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? dcwijeratna T: Thank you for agreeing 100%; that kind of agreement is not easily seen at DSG. [:>) To justify is to show to be right or reasonable. To verify is to prove to be true. So, you are right that I meant verification, not justification. What do you think about the limits to human ability to verify a truth? DC: In philosophy, justification would mean to make a valid deduction from known premises. Verification would be to establish the truth by experimentation or direct observation as in science. However, in science if you generalise, then you need to use inductive logic. Humans can verify truths relating to the world that he can observe--like scientific truths. But if the truths relate to the transcendental, then you can't verify (nor justify). With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76488 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bhikkhu Yanatharo moellerdieter Hi Howard, thanks for clarification... with Metta Dieter #76489 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:48 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 4, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, For those who are proficient in jhåna and attain enlightenment the lokuttara cittas can be accompanied by jhåna-factors of the different stages of jhåna, depending on the stage of jhåna which was the basis of insight just before they attained enlightenment. Since there are five stages of jhåna, the eight types of lokuttara cittas [1] can be accompanied by jhåna-factors of five stages of jhåna [2], and thus there can be forty types of lokuttara cittas instead of eight types. The degree and the amount of the jhåna-factors which condition a citta at a particular moment are variegated, and this is dependent on many different conditions. As we have seen, those who are proficient in jhåna, who have jhåna as basis of insight, can attain enlightenment with lokuttara jhånacittas, lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhåna-factors of the different stages of jhåna. The magga-citta (path-consciousness) is followed immediately, in the same process, by its result, the phala- citta (fruition-consciousness), and then, after that process is over, other types of citta arise. However, phala-cittas which experience nibbåna can arise again in other processes of citta, many times during their life. This is not possible for those who attained enlightenment but who were not proficient in jhåna and did not have jhåna as basis of insight. Thus we see that people have different accumulations. However, for all those who have attained enlightenment defilements are progressively eradicated depending on the stage of enlightenment one has attained. We should not have desire for the attainment of jhåna. A high degree of paññå is needed for the development of the jhåna-factors so that jhåna can be attained. The disciples of the Buddha who were able to do so had accumulated a high proficiency in samatha during many lives. Instead of wishing for something that cannot be reached we should pay attention to what can be done right now. We can develop right understanding of the realities which have arisen already because of their own conditions. This kind of understanding leads to the eradication of defilements and that is the goal of the Buddha’s teachings. ----------- 1. At each of the four stages of enlightenment arise one type of lokuttara kusala citta and one type of lokuttara vipåkacitta. 2. As regards the four stages of arúpa-jhåna, they are accompanied by the same jhåna-factors as those of the fifth stage of rúpa-jhåna, namely samådhi and upekkhå. ********* Nina. #76490 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is no person, to DC. dcwijeratna Dear Nina, Many thanks for the long response; it is very kind of you. > N: To me this is true calm, and someone who follows this is truly calm, away from defilements. Through vipassana we, putthujanas, learn what is kusala and what is akusala and it is through vipassana that the sense-doors are guarded. The pa~n~naa developed in vipassana greatly supports siila. When one thinks less of my siila, there are condiitons for all kinds of siila, siila as varita and siila as carita, such as helping, paying respect. DC: I understand these things differently. For example, guarding the sense doors are indriya-sa.mvara.siila. Vipassana comes later. (See Samannaphala sutta). For me pa~n~naa is observing the siila (Sonadanda sutta) ------- >N: I do not know much about jhaana, except what I read in the suttas and the Visuddhimagga. I understand that it is not so much a matter of reciting but understanding when the citta is kusala and when akusala, and then knowing the conditions for eliminating the hindrances by being absorbed in the meditation subject. DC: I must also confess that I also don't know much about jhaanas. But according to the Suttas, jhaana doesn't seem to have much to do with understanding or knowing. It is a condition of peace. ------- N: "When we speak of effort in conventional sense, ... When we have a feeling of 'I have to do something' there is already clinging and this obstructs the development of the eightfold Path." ----------- >N: Allow me to react to a point you mentioned in another post: Of course there are many things in the teachings that are beyond us. As you know, the Buddha taught that kamma of a past life can produce result in this life, and kamma committed in this life can produce result in the future. This implies past lives and future lives. He also taught the Dependent Origination, the conditions for being in the cycle of birth and death, and he taught the way to liberation from the cycle.[1] Up to a certain point we can find all this reasonable and we can have confidence in these points that we cannot yet fully grasp. But perhaps you were just thinking of the question whether one can become an arahat in this life or not? According to the commentaries there are at this time, in this world no more arahats. My apologies if I misunderstood you, DC: What I really wanted to emphasise is that we don't know that we lived in the past and will live in the future. You will see pondering such questions is considered 'ayonisomanasikaara' in the Sabbaasava sutta of the MN. Buddhist kamma-theory is really a corollary of Dependent Origination. And that starts with avijjaa-delusion or not knowing. That is a characteristic of all beings. You can have confidence, yes. But that has no role in the Buddhist path. To start the Buddhist path you need to come to sammadi.t.thi. This is my understanding. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76491 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (66) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato XIII. The Section of the Groups of Twenty [Verses] 1. Ambapaaliitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 12 verse: 269. "Tuulapu.n.nasadisopamaa ubho, sobhare su paadaa pure mama; te jaraaya phu.titaa valiimataa, saccavaadivacana.m ana~n~nathaa. 269. Formerly both my feet looked beautiful, like [shoes] full of cotton wool. Because of old age, they are cracked and wrinkled. The utterance of the Speaker of Truth is not false. txt: Tuulapu.n.nasadisopamaati mudusiniddhabhaavena simbalituulapu.n.napaligu.n.thita-upaahanasadisaa. Te mama paadaa idaani phu.titaa phalitaa, valiimataa valimanto jaataa. Pruitt: 269. Like [shoes] full of cotton wool (tuula-pu.n.na-sadisopamaa) means: because of their smoothness and softness, they are like sandals covered and filled with the cotton of the silk-cotton tree (simbali-tuula-pu.n.na-paligu.nthita-upaahana-sadisaa). Now, these feet of mind are cracked, split, [and] wrinkled (valiimataa), have become wrinkled (vali-manto jaataa). verse: 270. "Ediso ahu aya.m samussayo, jajjaro bahudukhaanamaalayo; sopalepapatito jaraagharo, saccavaadivacana.m ana~n~nathaa"ti.- 270. Such was this body. [Now] it is decrepit, the abode of many pains, an old house with its plaster fallen off.* The utterance of the Speaker of Truth is not false. txt: Edisoti evaruupo. Ahu ahosi yathaavuttappakaaro. Aya.m samussayoti aya.m mama kaayo. Jajjaroti sithilaabandho Bahudukhaanamaalayoti jaraadihetukaana.m bahuuna.m dukkhaana.m aalayabhuuto. Sopalepapatitoti so aya.m samussayo apalepapatito abhisa"nkhaaraalepaparikkhayena patito paataabhimukhoti attho. Sopi alepapatitoti vaa padavibhaago, so evattho. Jaraagharoti ji.n.nagharasadiso. Jaraaya vaa gharabhuuto ahosi. Tasmaa saccavaadino dhammaana.m yathaabhuuta.m sabhaava.m sammadeva ~natvaa kathanato avitathavaadino sammaasambuddhassa mama satthuvacana.m ana~n~nathaa. 270. Such means: of such a kind. As has been said above, was (ahu) [is for] was (ahosi)*. This body (samussayo) means: this body of mine (kaayo). It is decrepit means: its sinews are slack. The abode (aalayo) of many pains (bahu-dukkhaanam) means: having become the abode (aalya-bhuuto) of many pains (bahuuna.m dukkhaana.m) that have old age, etc, as their cause. With its plaster fallen off ('palepa-patito) means: this body of mine has lost its plaster (apalepa-patito). Fallen off (patito), because of the deterioration of the plaster of its external attributes; it is destined to fall. That is the meaning. Or there is the separation of the words [in the reading] so pi alepa-patito [= so p' alepa-patito, "with its plaster fallen off"]. The meaning is the same. An old house (jaraa-gharo) means: like a decrepit house (ji.n.na-ghara-sadiso). Or, it has become like a house because of old age. Therefore, it is not false, the utterance of my Teacher, the Fully Awakened One, the Speaker of Truth, one whose words are true because he speaks, knowing phenomena, [knowing] their nature completely as it really is. *Ahosi, p.47, A.d.dhakaasii (Sis22) cy 25: There, my wages ....snip... Were (ahu) means: were (ahosi). ...cut... txt: Eva.m aya.m therii attano attabhaave aniccataaya sallakkha.namukhena sabbesupi tebhuumakadhammesu aniccata.m upadhaaretvaa tadanusaarena tattha dukkhalakkha.na.m anattalakkha.na~nca aaropetvaa vipassana.m ussukkaapentii maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa arahatta.m paapu.ni. RD: And inasmuch as the Therii, by the visible signs of impermanence in her own person, discerned impermanence in all phenomena of the three planes, and bearing that in mind, brought into relief the signs of Ill and of No-soul, she, making clear her insight in her Path-progress, attained Arahantship. PRUITT: Then this therii, through distinguishing the characteristics of the impermanence of her own body, observed the characteristic of the impermanence of all phenomena in the three planes [of existence].* As a consequence of that, she established the characteristic of misery and the characteristic of no-self, eagerly practised insight, and attained the paths one after the other, [ending in] Arahatship. *p125, n4: The plane of sensory experience (kaama-loka), the plane of fine-material existence (ruupa-loka), and the plane of immaterial existence (aruupa-loka). {So.naa, foremost in strenuous will, Sis45} cy 101. Formations (sa"nkhaare) means: the formations of the three planes [of existence] (te-bhuumaka-sa"nkhaare). ... === to be continued, connie #76492 From: "colette" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:32 am Subject: Re: cheering and clapping ksheri3 Hi Ken H, You've opened a new can of worms: "Mundus vult decipi. The world wishes to be deceived". Lets look at that from a buddhist view: All is illusion is standard buddhism can we say, then, that the world is the illusion or can we say that the deceiving is the illusion? And what is doing the deveiving? food for thought, or as I used on my website back in 2000-01 "Food for Lush". <.....> toodles, colette #76493 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:38 pm Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 kenhowardau Hi Robert A, I am firmly of the opinion that Bhikkhu Thanissaro (author of Wings to Awakening and driving force behind accesstoinsight.com) believes in an eternal soul. If I were to adopt your standards, could I speak about this? Or would I be forced to say nothing? Ken H #76494 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:53 pm Subject: Re: cheering and clapping kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > You've opened a new can of worms: "Mundus vult decipi. The world > wishes to be deceived". > > Lets look at that from a buddhist view: > > All is illusion is standard buddhism can we say, then, that the world > is the illusion or can we say that the deceiving is the illusion? And > what is doing the deveiving? > > food for thought, Thanks Colette, that is excellent food for thought. Given that the world wishes to be deceived, who or what is this "world" that is doing the wishing? Is it part of the deception it is wishing for? Surely, by anyone's definition, the world can only be whatever reality - or realities - exist in the present moment. Some people say there are no such realities. Buddhists, however, say there are. They are called paramattha dhammas - or conditioned namas and rupas. Ultimately, the cause of the existence of paramattha dhammas is desire (lobha, or tanha - the first link in dependent origination). And chief amongst those desires is that the impermanent should be seen as permanent, that the painful should be seen as pleasurable, and that the void should be seen as self. In other words, the world wishes to be deceived. Thanks again for the food for thought. Nice chewing it over with you. Ken H #76495 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? indriyabala Hi DC, - The point you made below has an open end. > DC: Humans can verify truths relating to the world that he can observe--like scientific truths. But if the truths relate to the transcendental, then you can't verify (nor justify). > T: Then how do I find out if such transcendental truths are true? Tep === #76496 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:21 pm Subject: Re: "there is no ÁÑerson¡¦quot; - "The controversy on ÁÑerson¡¦is ended" indriyabala Dear DC, - The passage you took from Nyanaponika's Abhidhamma Studies, pp. ix-x, only lists the "Saariputra-abhidharma-sastra" as the third exception without detailed information. Is there an English translation available? DC: Study of Abhidhamma for its own sake, most probably, for those who like it, is a rewarding experience. But comparison with the Pali nikayas (sutta pi.taka) doesn't seem to be fair. T: Why should they be compared? In my opinion there is no competition since they both are Teachings of the same Greatest Teacher. Debates on "Abhidhamma vs. Sutta" are due to clinging to personal views. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > I wish to take just one phrase from your post: "classical discussion/debate on Abhidhamma vs. Sutta." > > To me there is no "Abhidhamma vs. Sutta." I give below some info from Ven. Nyanaponika's Abhidhamma Studies, pp. ix-x. > #76497 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 avalo1968 Hello Ken H, Please just consider if you can address others with respect and an intention to be helpful and useful. If you think the post I commented on originally meets that standard, there is nothing else to say. If you can recognize that it does not, then there is nothing else to say. I'll be quiet again now. Robert A. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert A, > > I am firmly of the opinion that Bhikkhu Thanissaro (author of Wings to > Awakening and driving force behind accesstoinsight.com) believes in an > eternal soul. If I were to adopt your standards, could I speak about > this? Or would I be forced to say nothing? > > Ken H > #76498 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:53 pm Subject: An Angry Person * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! <....> Taken from AccessToInsight.org1 Translated from Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu SUMMARY: There are seven disadvantages that befall someone given to and overcome by anger, which are pleasing to their enemies and fulfill their wishes: (i) becomes ugly in appearance, (ii) sleeps poorly (iii) misses opportunities through confused thinking (iv) is fined by the authorities for their angry conduct (v) loses their good reputation (vi) is avoided by relatives, friends and companions and therefore has no friends as he/she is given to anger (vii) is born in a lower (hellish) realm after death. AN ANGRY PERSON Anguttara Nikâya 7.60 - Kodhana Sutta2 "These seven things — pleasing to an enemy, bringing about an enemy's aim — come to a man or woman who is angry. Which seven? "There is the case where an enemy wishes of an enemy, 'O, may this person be ugly!' Why is that? An enemy is not pleased with an enemy's good looks. Now, when a person is angry — overcome with anger, oppressed with anger — then regardless of the fact that he may be well-bathed, well-anointed, dressed in white clothes, his hair & beard neatly trimmed, he is ugly nevertheless, all because he is overcome with anger. This is the first thing pleasing to an enemy, bringing about an enemy's aim, that comes to a man or woman who is angry. "Furthermore, an enemy wishes of an enemy, 'O, may this person sleep badly!' Why is that? An enemy is not pleased with an enemy's restful sleep. Now, when a person is angry — overcome with anger, oppressed with anger — then regardless of the fact that he sleeps on a bed spread with a white blanket, spread with a woolen coverlet, spread with a flower-embroidered bedspread, covered with a rug of deerskins, with a canopy overhead, or on a sofa with red cushions at either end, he sleeps badly nevertheless, all because he is overcome with anger. This is the second thing pleasing to an enemy, bringing about an enemy's aim, that comes to a man or woman who is angry. "Furthermore, an enemy wishes of an enemy, 'O, may this person not profit!' Why is that? An enemy is not pleased with an enemy's profits. Now, when a person is angry — overcome with anger, oppressed with anger — then even when he suffers a loss, he thinks, 'I've gained a profit'; and even when he gains a profit, he thinks, 'I've suffered a loss.' When he has grabbed hold of these ideas that work in mutual opposition [to the truth], they lead to his long-term suffering & loss, all because he is overcome with anger. This is the third thing pleasing to an enemy, bringing about an enemy's aim, that comes to a man or woman who is angry. "Furthermore, an enemy wishes of an enemy, 'O, may this person not have any wealth!' Why is that? An enemy is not pleased with an enemy's wealth. Now, when a person is angry — overcome with anger, oppressed with anger — then whatever wealth he has, earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow — righteous wealth righteously gained — the king orders it sent to the royal treasury [in payment of fines levied for his behavior] all because he is overcome with anger. This is the fourth thing pleasing to an enemy, bringing about an enemy's aim, that comes to a man or woman who is angry. "Furthermore, an enemy wishes of an enemy, 'O, may this person not have any reputation!' Why is that? An enemy is not pleased with an enemy's reputation. Now, when a person is angry — overcome with anger, oppressed with anger — whatever reputation he has gained from being heedful, it falls away, all because he is overcome with anger. This is the fifth thing pleasing to an enemy, bringing about an enemy's aim, that comes to a man or woman who is angry. "Furthermore, an enemy wishes of an enemy, 'O, may this person not have any friends!' Why is that? An enemy is not pleased with an enemy's having friends. Now, when a person is angry — overcome with anger, oppressed with anger — his friends, companions, & relatives will avoid him from afar, all because he is overcome with anger. This is the sixth thing pleasing to an enemy, bringing about an enemy's aim, that comes to a man or woman who is angry. "Furthermore, an enemy wishes of an enemy, 'O, may this person, on the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad bourn, the lower realms, in hell!' Why is that? An enemy is not pleased with an enemy's going to heaven. Now, when a person is angry — overcome with anger, oppressed with anger — he engages in misconduct with the body, misconduct with speech, misconduct with the mind. Having engaged in misconduct with the body, misconduct with speech, misconduct with the mind, then — on the break-up of the body, after death — he reappears in the plane of deprivation, the bad bourn, the lower realms, in hell, all because he was overcome with anger. This is the seventh thing pleasing to an enemy, bringing about an enemy's aim, that comes to a man or woman who is angry. "These are the seven things — pleasing to an enemy, bringing about an enemy's aim — that come to a man or woman who is angry." An angry person is ugly & sleeps poorly. Gaining a profit, he turns it into a loss, having done damage with word & deed. A person overwhelmed with anger destroys his wealth. Maddened with anger, he destroys his status. Relatives, friends, & colleagues avoid him. Anger brings loss. Anger inflames the mind. He doesn't realize that his danger is born from within. An angry person doesn't know his own benefit. An angry person doesn't see the Dhamma. A man conquered by anger is in a mass of darkness. He takes pleasure in bad deeds as if they were good, but later, when his anger is gone, he suffers as if burned with fire. He is spoiled, blotted out, like fire enveloped in smoke. When anger spreads, when a man becomes angry, he has no shame, no fear of evil, is not respectful in speech. For a person overcome with anger, nothing gives light. I'll list the deeds that bring remorse, that are far from the teachings. Listen! An angry person kills his father, kills his mother, kills Brahmans & people run-of-the-mill. It's because of a mother's devotion that one sees the world, yet an angry run-of-the-mill person can kill this giver of life. Like oneself, all beings hold themselves most dear, yet an angry person, deranged, can kill himself in many ways: with a sword, taking poison, hanging himself by a rope in a mountain glen. Doing these deeds that kill beings and do violence to himself, the angry person doesn't realize that he's ruined. This snare of Mara, in the form of anger, dwelling in the cave of the heart: cut it out with self-control, discernment, persistence, right view. The wise man would cut out each & every form of unskillfulness. Train yourselves: 'May we not be blotted out.' Free from anger & untroubled, free from greed, without longing, tamed, your anger abandoned, free from fermentation, you will be unbound. Notes 1. More suttas from AcessToInsight.org can be found here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html 2. An alternate translation of this sutta can be found here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.060.nymo.html <....> #76499 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila nilovg Dear Han, Op 17-sep-2007, om 12:36 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > (1) krata-yuga, when there are all good people on > earth. > (2) tretaa-yuga, when there are 3 good people to 1 > evil people. > (3) dvaaparaa-yuga, when there are 2 good people to 2 > evil people. > (4) kali-yuga, when there are 1 good people to 3 evil > people. > > They say that we are now in kali-yuga. As there are > more evil people on earth, it is the age of vice, > misery and bad luck. ------- Han, who are someone's worst enemies, who are the evil people? They are one's own defilements. We read in the Samyutta Nikaaya I, Ch II, Kosala, Part 3, § 3 the World: that King Pasenadi asked the Buddha at Savatthi: < 'How many kinds of things, Lord, that happen in the world, make for trouble, for suffering, for distress?' ' Three things, sire, happen of that nature. What are the three? Greed, hatred and ignorance-these three make for trouble, for suffering, for distress.'> The real cause of suffering is within, it does not come from without. If there is no understanding, evermore akusala is accumulated, it is like kali-yuga. We can apply this to ourselves. Nina. #76500 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Nina, I do not disagree with you. I have no difficulty in accepting your interpretation of kali-yuga. “The real cause of suffering is within, it does not come from without. If there is no understanding, evermore akusala is accumulated, it is like kali-yuga.” But, can it not also mean that in kali-yuga, there are more people (than in pre-kali-yuga age), who have the real cause of suffering within, and who have no understanding, and who have more accumulated akusala? Respectfully, Han #76501 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (16) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your further explanation of the text. Text: Determination is the opposite of the defilements of attachment, aversion and ignorance. We should know of ourselves whether we have already firm determination as to the development of kusala or not yet. This is necessary so that we become unshakable in accomplishing it. Our determination can easily vacillate, it may not be firm, and our confidence may not be steady. ---------- Nina: We should apply this to the present moment. If we do not, we just read and it is only theory, it is only in the book. And this goes for all that we read in this book about the perfections. Lobha, dosa and moha arise time and again. Not always of a heavy degree, they may also be more subtle and then we do not know that they arise. When we feel slightly uneasy for different reasons, such as tiredness, a slight bodily sickness, or bad news we read, or someone else's bad speech, we should know that this is dosa. Or there is a slight attachment accompanied by indifferent feeling after seeing, we want to see, we are attached to seeing. Or we get things for ourselves as we do all the time in daily life. We may not harm others, but still we want to get this thing or that thing for ourselves. Sitting at the table, eating for this or that dish, wanting to eat. So many moments pass unnoticed. We can learn that determination for kusala, and especially for right understanding of realities, is not firm. It vacillates, there is lack of confidence in kusala. ---------- Text: It is said that lovingkindness is the opposite of lobha because it is free from the hindrances. Only paññå can know whether there are hindrances or not. If there is no paññå one may erroneously believe that there is mettaa. In reality there may be lobha, which is the hindrance of sensuous desire. Paññå is essential, and it is also the factor which causes all kusala further to develop. -------- Nina: Pa~n~naa can know whether there is unselfish love with impartiality, or whether we take selfish affection for metta. It can only be known with regard to the present moment. Also truthfulness is indispensable. How often do we mislead ourselves? As Sukin said: When we help others do we expect esteem or affection in return? We can begin to consider and investigate the citta arising at this very moment. Not being negligent with regard to this is the message we receive from the whole of the Tipitaka. ========== Han: The above explanations are well taken and much appreciated. But I have one small point to clarify. “The present moment” or “at this very moment” is often used. How can I define “the present moment”? Is it one second, or one minute? Or, is it the duration of “one” citta? Or, is it that one should know a citta when it arises immediately at the very moment of its arising? For me, for all practical purposes, when I am angry, if I know that I am angry before I can retaliate bodily or verbally, that will be good enough for me. In Mahaasatipatthaana sutta, in cittaanupassanaa, the Buddha said “saraagam vaa cittam saraagam cittanti pajaanaati.” To know mind affected by lust as mind affected by lust.” The Buddha did not say: “at this very moment.” ========= Han: I want to share with you an interesting statement made by U Shwe Aung, a Burmese scholar, with regard to the perfection of determination. He wrote that without a strong determination one cannot perfect any of the other nine perfections. If a person is not interested, and does not do anything to perfect the other nine perfections, the perfection of determination is not necessary. To sum up: (1) If there is no perfection of determination, there are no other perfections. (2) If there are no other perfections, there is no perfection of determination. This is just food for your thought. Respectfully, Han #76502 From: "tom" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:48 pm Subject: Unexamined embodiment:The rigors thereof zorroelbueno My cousin's husband died the other day 64 only sick a year complicated case-lymphoma maybe maybe, in part, crohn's disease whatever it was it was mean he hurt so long at last, hurt so bad they put him in a coma just to handle him it was sad Ed I never liked you never considered you the stuff of tragedy but a wave of pity rose and extreme terror: just an ordinary guy liked to eat sleep cat dull hearted for sure bigoted but a man's a man for all that It was like you rode this nice horse all your life a gentle trotting friend that quick quick reared, bucked rolled over and crushed you in the end Z #76503 From: "colette" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:15 pm Subject: Re: cheering and clapping ksheri3 You'll have to go down to catch this one, ;) Psst, that first step is a dousey. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" > wrote: > > > > Hi Ken H, > > > > You've opened a new can of worms: "Mundus vult decipi. The world > > wishes to be deceived". > > > > Lets look at that from a buddhist view: > > > > All is illusion is standard buddhism can we say, then, that the > world > > is the illusion or can we say that the deceiving is the illusion? > And > > what is doing the deveiving? > > > > food for thought, > > > Thanks Colette, that is excellent food for thought. Given that the > world wishes to be deceived, who or what is this "world" that is > doing the wishing? Is it part of the deception it is wishing for? > > Surely, by anyone's definition, the world can only be whatever > reality - or realities - exist in the present moment. Some people > say there are no such realities. Buddhists, however, say there are. > They are called paramattha dhammas - or conditioned namas and rupas. > > Ultimately, the cause of the existence of paramattha dhammas is > desire (lobha, or tanha - the first link in dependent origination). > And chief amongst those desires is that the impermanent should be > seen as permanent, that the painful should be seen as pleasurable, > and that the void should be seen as self. > > In other words, the world wishes to be deceived. > > Thanks again for the food for thought. Nice chewing it over with > you. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE, Now that's a connection! That is very satisfying! And, YOU ENJOYED MY COOKIN'! for a change, no less. Ken H, not only do you understand but you also took it one step further. This, to all those neophytes out there is called TEAM WORK. I'll enjoy reading this more when I get up and have fresh thoughts. toodles, colette #76504 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:42 pm Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 1 sukinderpal Hi Phil, ================= Just wanted to thank you for your thorough response - I do pop in now and then to scan messages, but my internet time is way too limited now to respond - and I want to keep it that way! I've decided not to post anymore until I've made some progress with my career. It could be several years, who knows? But when I do return, I'll start with your post, as a kind of check on where I'm at. Thanks again! Look forward to talking more with you and everyone when ...ahem...conditions permit. =============== S: Thanks for responding and telling us about this. Making a living is important and I wish you much success in it. No need to respond, but do give time to reading the posts here. Conditions rule, of course. :-) Metta, Sukin #76505 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to Phil - Part 4 sukinderpal Hi Nina, > I'm sure my own posts demand much patience on the part of > most if not all members here. --------- No. no, it is very good, do continue. Also a good idea to make four shorter posts. S> Thank you for the encouragement. ===================== I liked this one: Phil: has listened to it for years and says he still doesn't understand it. > That shows that AS is not teaching it properly, I suspect. > Sukin: Too difficult in relation to tanha! To panna on the other hand, even when very little, it is always good to know the truth, and this includes any signs of self-deception. ------- N: Excellent answer. Difficult for tanha. Knowing self-deception. Lodewijk wanted to answer Phil but does not like writing. He realizes the fault is with him as to understanding. But it is good to be sincere: to what extent do we understand: We do not understand much yet, I would say. S> Yes, but even that might have been said with `self', in reality only `panna' can know. Layer after layer of self deception needs to be seen through, and this can never happen without the help of all the paramis being developed. Metta, Sukin PS: Yesterday Ivan and I went to meet Knowing who hadn't appeared at the foundation for five weeks. We found him looking as he always did. However he said that his health has in fact grown worst. As you know he has some strong reactions to micro-waves and such, so much so that he finds Bangkok to be now quite uninhabitable. So during the time, he had taken a trip down south to a place near Ranong where there are some hot springs and have decided to move there intending never to return to Bangkok….. #76506 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:47 pm Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 sukinderpal Hi Robert and Ken, > Both of you should consider if these kinds of comments directed at a > teacher such as Ajahn Mun are useful and reflect well on DSG. There was more than one motive behind my remark. And I'll admit to occasionally enjoy not only finding fault but also indulge in a little gossip. But no, not in this case. Here my main motive was to show Phil the danger of `self-view' and how not paying heed to it from the outset, can lead to such great distortion of the Dhamma. A watered down version is one which caters to `self'. Also it seems to me that any objection to the Abhidhamma / commentarial perspective and an insistence on a more conventional presentation of the Dhamma, is largely motivated by self-view. Of course one may be justified in personally not being interested in certain technical details, but that is hardly ever the reason for the objections made. And Ken, you are only partly right about my motive, which is why I was having a hard time relating your comment to my own. I wasn't thinking about the general followers of A. Mun, but I did have one particular DSG member in mind who I was hoping to draw out to make a comment. About a couple of years back I was having the impression that this member was making a case for a certain view about Dhamma because that in effect would be a defense of A. Mun's position on `Self". This I considered an unnecessary burden to carry on his part since it would make it harder for him to correct his own views. But Robert, I don't see why you should be particularly concerned about the kind of comment. DSG does not imo, need any image maintained. And even if it did, Ken's and my comments are not going to make any difference. Besides what difference in essence is there between the mention of a well known teacher by name and "view" which this particular teacher holds? In the end, it is all about Dhamma that both Ken and I are interested in. Neither of us can be too bothered about discussing "individuals". The best reaction to any such comment would therefore be to bring up views and discuss them. And then if you are able to prove us wrong, your revered teacher would then *look good*, and so too would DSG. ;-) In any case, isn't the dominant view currently on DSG, in effect saying that *almost all* the other Ajahns and so on are wrong anyway!? Also there have been several strong remarks against A. Sujin (even in the one you responded to), and the ancient commentators, why no voice raised there? But of course, as an individual, only the Buddha, for the Dhamma that he taught, can be truly said to deserve the highest respect. And if there is some one to whom one can have "saddha" towards, it is He alone. With this in mind, pointing out the wrong view of any respected teacher is imo, *not* wrong, but would in fact be the right thing to do. If mentioning names is more effective in drawing people's attention to the wrong views involved and out to discuss them, why not do so? So Robert, you are welcome to discuss the Dhamma in your own way, but you must also allow for others to do so in their own way. As of now I feel no hesitation at all to mentioning any teacher by name especially if this means drawing attention to their wrong views. The respect that the thousands and millions of their followers have towards them, mean nothing to me. Why should it. Wrong view is wrong!! But I know we've discussed this before. You don't even think that I should be criticizing such teachers as J. Krishnamurti and perhaps even the Pope ;-). No, Robert, I don't care to maintain the pleasant feelings that the whole human race has, which accompanies the attachment they have to any revered teacher. And as I indicated earlier, I don't think it fair that the followers should be burdened with trying to maintain the image of their respected teachers no matter how well known and accepted. It is a great blessing that the Tipitaka has been handed down to us, but many of these teachers I consider in fact, a curse to the general Buddhist public. That said, I would like to mention that I don't see any value at all in setting out to change people's minds, this being an impossible task. But even if it were theoretically possible to do so, reminding myself about what it took the Buddha-to-be to become one, I consider myself a speck of dust not only in terms of panna, but also energy, morality, patience, determination, renunciation, loving kindness and so on, plus there is really very little compassion here, which in fact is what motivates a Bodhisatta. Finally, this is the only forum I now participate in, so overall there is no need to fear me. ;-) Metta, Sukin. #76507 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 sarahprocter... Hi Sukin, Robert A, Ken H,(Phil)& all, It's always good to discuss right speech. --- Sukinder wrote: > There was more than one motive behind my remark. And I'll admit to > occasionally enjoy not only finding fault but also indulge in a little > gossip. > But no, not in this case. > > Here my main motive was to show Phil the danger of `self-view' and > how not paying heed to it from the outset, can lead to such great > distortion of the Dhamma. .... Sarah: I think you're all discussing an interesting point and I'm glad that Robert A has raised the issue of appropriate speech in this connection. We often deceive ourselves in this regard. Sukin's comments show, however, that very often we don't know each others' motives - we don't even know our own, much of the time. It comes back again to wise and unwise attention and to the development of right understanding, I think. In other words, it comes back to our mental states as we write or speak. From MN 2, Sabbaasava Sutta, (Nanomoli/Bodhi transl): "Bhikkhus, I say that the destruction of the taints is for one who knows and sees, not for one who does not know and see. Who knows and sees what? Wise attention and unwise attention. When one attends unwisely, unarisen taints arise and arisen taints increase. When one attends wisely, unarisen taints do not arise and arisen taints are abandoned..........." "What taints, bhikkhus, should be abandoned by seeing? Here, bhikkhus, an untaught ordinary person, who has no regard for noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who has no regard for true men and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, does not understand what things are fit for attention and what things are unfit for attention. Since that is so, he attends to those things unfit for attention and he does not attend to those things fit for attention.*" "What are the things unfit for attention that he attends to? They are things such that when he attends to them, the unarisen taint of sensual desire arises in him and the arisen taint of sensual desire increases, the unarisen taint of being arises in him and the arisen taint of being increases, the unarisen taint of ignorance arises in him and the arisen taint of ignorance increases. These are the things unfit for attention that he attends to.**......" .............. *Note : "MA makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists, rather, in the mode of attention. That mode of attention that is a causal basis for unwholesome states of mind should be avoided, while that mode of attention that is a causal basis for wholesome states should be developed." **Note: "MA illustrates the growth of the taints through unwise attention as follows: When he attends to gratification in the five cords of sensual pleasure, the taint of sensual desire arises and increases; when he attends to gratification in the exalted states (jhaanas), the taint of being arises and increases; and when he attends to any mundane things through the four 'perversions' (of permanence, etc), the taint of ignorance arises and increases." .... I'll look forward to your further discussion and any comments on these quotes. Thanks again, Robert, for stepping in and helping us to reflect further. Metta, Sarah ======= #76508 From: "Evie" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:28 pm Subject: New to the Buddhist community. eviebgreen Hello, my name is Evelyn and I am new to the Buddhist community. I will keep my first post short, but my main goal is to become more of a calm person, to use my meditation daily to help me to be become enlightened. To not have so much frustration, sorrow, pain, anger, and to replace that with calmness, happiness and understanding. So I will try to get online daily to check my messages and to write again shortly. As it is late right now and I need to get some sleep for the night. Hope that everyone has a good Wednesday and may peace be with you. -Evelyn PS- If you have myspace you also can reach me there. My profile is for my husband and myself under theschwenkes . #76509 From: "colette" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:02 pm Subject: Re: cheering and clapping ksheri3 Hi Ken, Now I've gotta few minutes, was watching EXTREME UNIVERSES and heard Debra Fisher at U.C.Berkely say that the planets we've found since 1995 do not represent the planets we will find in the next five years. That is my entire thesis of this study of theology/philosophy/cosmology/etc. For instance you've found one of my foundations: SVABHAVA and you've gone into somewhat here concerning the one simple example from the Abhidharma, Lobha or Desire, what about the worst of all Mosa or anger which is far more reaching and far more stimulating to the consciousness? And I won't forget the Abhidharma's pravda (truth) that Lobha, Mosa, and Dosa, are always present when wrong view is achieved. That Lobha (desire) is only permanent for the dreamer during the dream, it is not permanent for any other sentient being. What happens when the Dreamer loses the lobha or the lobha becomes less satisfying, or is seen as a cause of less satisfaction, why then, doesn't give rise to Mose or anger. And here we have it: "in this corner, wearing the spandex tights THE HAVE NOTS and in the other corner wearing those sheik basic black negligees THE HAVES' and they're both gonna duke it out, huh? BUT THERE IS NO PERMANENCE IN ANY OF THEIR SHIT! It's a cheap wrestling match, no? The fix is in for those that chose the fixed income with the fixed rent or mortgage for their prison, the fixed... everything. Now we can go into ALCHEMY. I can understand if you'd rather not go there but I've spent more than half of the 46 yrs. of my life, so far, studying this stuff and I can tell you IT WORKS! We can even go to one of Rod Serling's stories where aliens from another planet come and begin taking people to their planet and the book the aliens showed the humans was "TO SERVE MAN"; the final seen of that show has one of the professors racing to the spaceship to stop her friend from boarding screaming "It's a cook book". And so it is possible for the orthodox to cling and crave their orthodoxy or even the Taliban wishing to return to the days of barbarism but ya can't stop progress and ya can't put the genii back in the bottle, now can ya? You've just given such a loooooooong list of future investigation that I'm simply overjoyed and honored to finally find others that are conscious and are willing to actually put forth good research thoughts that they have, instead of being the "Casper-Milk-Toast" hiding behind the books that a publisher invested a lot of money to sell to universities for their programming schedule of robots. <....>It's a wild ride! toodles, colette #76510 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:04 pm Subject: Indispensable Necessity! bhikkhu0 Friends: The Truths have to be seen before Awakening is possible! <....> 8-fold Way Ends all Suffering, as they really are, I will make a final and complete end of all suffering! Then this is hopeless, impossible, impracticable, unachievable, & untrue! Just as if anyone would build the second floor of a house without first having built the first floor... However if anyone should wish: Having made this crucial breakthrough to understanding: This is Suffering; Craving is the Cause of Suffering; No Craving is the End of Suffering; The 8-fold Way Ends all Suffering, as they really are, I will make a final and complete end of all suffering! Then this is realistic, possible, likely, promising, feasible & realizable! Just as if one first having build the first floor of a house easily could build and add the second floor... Therefore should an effort be made to really understand, see, comprehend, & realize these 4 Noble Truths! Comment: Many beings embark on raising a metaphysical religious 'Tower' from, which they can look proud, yet forgetting all about to making a solid foundation first! Result: At first wind this tower tumble & they fall! Back to square one again! There is only this ONE way: Noble & 8-fold... Never give up developing this Way further, deeper, better & purer! Stay grounded! Pay attention to the facts & truths as they really are! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta NikÄ?ya. [V:452-3] section 56: Saccasamyutta. Thread 44: The Peaked House ... Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <....> #76511 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:38 am Subject: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 buddhatrue Hi All, An Introduction To Buddhism Forward: There are numerous books on Buddhism in general as well as many on specific aspects of Buddhism by a number of scholars and writers. In order to read these books, one must have a preliminary understanding of the fundamental teaching of the Buddha. In writing this, I have attempted briefly to give an account of these teaching. This should be of help to beginners who are learning about Buddhism and it should serve as an introduction to its study. My thanks are due to my good friends, Mrs. I.R. Quittner and Mr. Russell Webb who have gone through this manuscript with great care and who have made excellent suggestions for the improvement of this booklet. My thanks also go to my good friend, Mrs. B. Noll who has typed and retyped this manuscript more than once with great patience and saddha. I have also to thank Prof. U.D. Jayasekera of the University of Colombo for his kindness in reading the proofs, and seeing the book through the press on my behalf. Teachings only point the way. It is up to each one us to follow it. So said the Buddha. Hammalawa Saddhatissa BUDDHISM: Buddhism is a way of life and living which is as relevant to the world of today as it was more than 2,500 years ago when it was first promulgated by Siddhattha Gotama: it is the way of self-reliance. Buddhism does not rest on blind faith but on scientific investigation, on logic and on reason. It encourages the questioning mind and it encourages seekers after ultimate truth. The Buddha asked his followers to test its validity in the light of their own experience and judgment. When he spoke to some skeptics in N.E. India, he advised them not to accept anything on the strength of rumor, mere agreement with one's own tradition, preconceived notions, personal appeal, rational deduction, nor upon the consideration, "The monk is our teacher." On the contrary, he said, "Whatever things are good, whatever things are true, whatever things are conducive to your own good, these things should you accept, these things should you do." Buddhism is not strictly speaking a religion at all, as it is not a system of faith and worship owing allegiance to any supernatural being. It is a course that guides a seeker through `right' (in the sense of `complete', `skillful', `wholesome') living and thinking to the goal of supreme understanding and deliverance from all `suffering'. (See interpretation below). Though flowers, incense and candles may be offered before pictures or statues of Buddha he is not worshiped as a god. He was an exceptional human being who once said: "He honors me best who practices my teaching best." Great emphasis is laid on the importance of meditation, which leads to self-discipline, self-control and enlightenment. Man follows the way of Buddhism by his own efforts alone and does not rely on any external agency at all. The true Buddhist is full of joy and hope. He follows a teaching which leads to his spiritual freedom and he recognizes that through his own efforts alone he can reach his goal. To be continued: THE BUDDHA, HIS TEACHING Metta, James #76512 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. nilovg Dear Evie, Wellcome to dsg. I read your post with interest. You set your goal very high, it can only be accomplished when you have reached the highest stage of enlightenment. Nina. Op 19-sep-2007, om 6:28 heeft Evie het volgende geschreven: > I will keep my first post short, but my main goal is to become more of > a calm person, to use my meditation daily to help me to be become > enlightened. > > To not have so much frustration, sorrow, pain, anger, and to replace > that with calmness, happiness and understanding. #76513 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi James, - You say in the Forward that there are many books on Buddhism, which I understand to mean many books about the fundamental teaching of the Buddha as well as the specific aspects of Buddhism. Do you feel the existing books do not (adequately) help beginners who are learning about Buddhism ? Could you please show us what is missing in the literature that makes it inadequate to help beginners? Another question is: are you also going to give a literature review of at least the major existing books so that the readers get the idea why yours is a contribution? Thank you very much. Tep === > #76514 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:03 am Subject: Re: "there is no �person�Equot; - "The controversy on �person�Eis ended" kenhowardau Hi Scott, <. . .> S: > No, I was speculating that while the mettaa would be kusala, > the thoughts that might go along with mettaa, thoughts about the > attacker, would likely only be thoughts - wouldn't have any > designation of either kusala or akusala. This would be because the > mettaa was a reality while the attacker and the victim of the attack > would be concepts. Yes, we agree that thoughts (concepts) do not really exist. Thinking, however, is a function of various namas that do exist. Therefore, thinking is real. (Just to confuse matters we sometimes use the word 'thinking' to refer to thoughts.) It's a tricky business, isn't it? We can say that wholesome namas perform wholesome functions and unwholesome namas perform unwholesome functions. Therefore, we can say there is wholesome thinking and there is unwholesome thinking. When the namas that think are accompanied by alobha, adosa and other wholesome namas, they too are wholesome, and so is their thinking. Therefore, when wholesome namas produce the thought, "The man is holding a knife" they are performing a wholesome function. When unwholesome namas produce the thought "The man is holding a knife," they are performing an unwholesome function. Spot the difference! :-) Ken H #76515 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:59 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi James, - > > You say in the Forward that there are many books on Buddhism, which I > understand to mean many books about the fundamental teaching of the > Buddha as well as the specific aspects of Buddhism. Do you feel the > existing books do not (adequately) help beginners who are learning > about Buddhism ? Could you please show us what is missing in the > literature that makes it inadequate to help beginners? Another > question is: are you also going to give a literature review of at > least the major existing books so that the readers get the idea why > yours is a contribution? ;-)) This isn't my writing. I am posting a Buddhist booklet which I received at a Buddhist temple in Arizona. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. Metta, James #76516 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? dcwijeratna Dear Tep, Thanks for your e-m. I wish to respond to your question. > DC: Humans can verify truths relating to the world that he can observe--like scientific truths. But if the truths relate to the transcendental, then you can't verify (nor justify). > T: Then how do I find out if such transcendental truths are true? We need to get the meaning of 'transcendental truth'. Oxford Dictionary defines: transcend verb [with obj.] be or go beyond the range or limits of (something abstract, typically a conceptual field or division). And transcendental (adjective) of or relating to a spiritual or nonphysical realm. So by definition 'trancendental truths' (this phrase has no meaning) are beyond us. Now to the other word: truth is something that can be verified. Now we can't verify what is transcendental. Therefore, transcendental truth is a contradiction of terms. I think I made the mistake in the sentence "But...truths...transcendental". Actually I should have used the words 'claims relating to the transcendantal cannot be verified.' People who make claims regarding 'transcendal truths' have not verified them. One of the most important things about truth is that anybody can verify it. If I say that the world is round, you can verify it. But if you say that the universe originated x billions ago, it is a mere theory not capable of verification. So in short: there are no 'transcendental truths.' So the question does not arise. Have I made myself clear or have I made it even worse? Thank you for this very interesting discussion. With metta D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76517 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:11 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi James, - Thank you for the reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi James, - > > > > You say in the Forward that there are many books on Buddhism, which I > > understand to mean many books about the fundamental teaching of the > > Buddha as well as the specific aspects of Buddhism. Do you feel the > > existing books do not (adequately) help beginners who are learning > > about Buddhism ? Could you please show us what is missing in the > > literature that makes it inadequate to help beginners? Another > > question is: are you also going to give a literature review of at > > least the major existing books so that the readers get the idea why > > yours is a contribution? > > ;-)) This isn't my writing. I am posting a Buddhist booklet which I > received at a Buddhist temple in Arizona. Sorry I didn't make that > clearer. > T: The only "clue" in your post that the article is not your writing is the two unfamiliar words , Hammalawa Saddhatissa, in the middle of the post! No, you have not made it clear even now. Again, same questions can be asked : why present this article ? Do you think it does the job it claims to do ? Why is it a contribution? Tep === #76518 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ÁÑerson¡¦quot; - "The controversy on ÁÑerson¡¦is ended" dcwijeratna Dear Tep, > Tep: The passage you took from Nyanaponika' s Abhidhamma Studies, pp. ix-x, only lists the "Saariputra- abhidharma- sastra" as the third exception without detailed information. Is there an English translation available? DC: I don't think so. According to the Buddhist Encyclopedia, it is available only in Chinese translation. >T: Why should they be compared? In my opinion there is no competition since they both are Teachings of the same Greatest Teacher. Debates on "Abhidhamma vs. Sutta" are due to clinging to personal views. DC: True enough. But most of the sutta-pitaka is attributed to the Buddha or his close disciples. But most abhidharma is by unknown authors and of late origin. So they considered as attempts to explain the Teachings of the Dhamma. Withe metta, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76519 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? indriyabala Dear DC, - I appreciate your posts that have been both educating and thought- provoking. > DC: > So in short: there are no 'transcendental truths.' So the question does not arise. > > Have I made myself clear or have I made it even worse? > T: Yes, you are clear. Now I see it is not easy to quickly read through your posts; there are between-the-lines meanings that may easily be overlooked. > DC: Thank you for this very interesting discussion. > Thanks to you for the same reason. Tep ==== #76520 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:53 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 15, no 1. Path-Conditon. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 15 Path-Condition (Magga-Paccaya) In the case of path-condition, magga-paccaya, the cetasikas which are called path-factors are the conditioning dhammas (paccayas) and these are related to the dhammas arising together with them, the conditioned dhammas (paccayupanna dhammas), by way of path-condition, magga-paccaya. The path-factors which are path-condition are not merely the factors of the noble eightfold Path which leads to enlightenment, but the term path-factor should be taken in a wider sense. Path-factors can be akusala cetasikas which constitute the wrong path, or they can be sobhana cetasikas which constitute the right path. The path-factors of the wrong path lead downwards, to an unhappy rebirth, and the path-factors of the right path lead to a happy rebirth, or, when they are constituents of the noble eightfold Path, they lead to deliverance from the cycle of birth and death. In the “Dialologues of the Buddha” (III, no. 33, The Recital, VIII) the path-factors of the wrong path are summed up as follows: Eight wrong factors of character and conduct, to wit, wrong views, thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, concentration. Wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood are not cetasikas, but they are unwholesome actions motivated by akusala cetanå, unwholesome volition, which accompanies akusala citta. Neither is wrong mindfulness a cetasika, but it designates lack of attention to kusala, lack of mindfulness which is a property of akusala citta. The cetasika mindfulness, sati, can only accompany sobhana citta, it cannot be akusala. Since the four factors of wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood and wrong mindfulness are not cetasikas they are not conditioning factors of path-condition. The other four factors of the wrong path are akusala cetasikas, namely: wrong view, wrong thinking, wrong effort and wrong concentration. Thus, they are conditioning factors of path-condition. We read in the “Patthåna” (Faultless Triplet, VII, Investigation Chapter, § 432, IV): Faulty state (akusala dhamma) is related to faulty state by path- condition. Faulty path-factors are related to their associated khandhas [1] by path-condition. ----------- 1. The akusala cetasikas which are factors of the wrong path are the khandha of formations (sankhåra-kkhandha, including all cetasikas except feeling and saññå, remembrance or perception). The associated khandhas (the nåma-khandhas which arise together with sankhårakkhandha) are vedanå-kkhandha, saññå-kkhandha and viññåna- kkhandha. ****** Nina. #76521 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is no person, to DC. nilovg Dear DC, Op 18-sep-2007, om 18:18 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven: > N: The pa~n~naa developed in vipassana > greatly supports siila. When one thinks less of my siila, there are > conditions for all kinds of siila, siila as varita and siila as > carita, such as helping, paying respect. > > DC: I understand these things differently. For example, guarding > the sense doors are indriya-sa.mvara.siila. Vipassana comes later. > (See Samannaphala sutta). For me pa~n~naa is observing the siila > (Sonadanda sutta) > ------- > N: There are different levels of indriya-sa.mvara.siila. Through > samatha the hindrances are suppressed when jhaana is attained and > one is not overpowered by sense objects. The highest way of indriya- > sa.mvara.siila is through vipassana. As you say it: pa~n~naa is observing the siila (Sonadanda sutta).> Let me give an example. Before we heard the Dhamma we were all the time thinking of persons, and when we were scolded we thought of the voice of another person we found so unpleasant. We thought that someone else was to blame for this unpleasant experience. Thus, we lived in the world of thinking, of thinking of myself, of another person. Now we have learnt about the world of dhammas, realities that arise because of conditions, that are beyond control and anatta. We read in the 'Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint': There are naamas and ruupas appearing all the time. When sound appears sound can be known as a kind of ruupa not belonging to anybody, no matter how unpleasant or how alluring it is. Sound is experienced by hearing. When visible object or colour appears it can be realized as a kind of ruupa. It is experienced by the citta that is seeing. Seeing and hearing have each a totally different field, a different object, different conditions. They have nothing to do with each other. Thinking on account of what is seen or heard is another reality, and thinking is done either with kusala citta or with akusala citta, but mostly with akusala citta. Seeing, hearing, thinking, all of these are impersonal elements arising because of their own conditions. It takes a long time to investigate these realities and see that they are mere dhammas, each with their own characteristic. Still, the example above shows us that the development of understanding of realities is very fruitful. It is an example of indriya sa.mvara siila that is higher siila. ----------- > >N: I do not know much about jhaana, except what I read in the suttas > and the Visuddhimagga. > DC: I must also confess that I also don't know much about jhaanas. > But according to the Suttas, jhaana doesn't seem to have much to do > with understanding or knowing. It is a condition of peace. > ------- > N: If one is proficient in jhaana it can be a proximate cause of > vipassana pa~n~naa. But then it must be the true jhaana, not what > someone may take for jhaana. Its development is along way. --------- > >N: .... > As you know, the Buddha taught that kamma of a past life can produce > result in this life, and kamma committed in this life can produce > result in the future. This implies past lives and future lives. He > also taught the Dependent Origination, the conditions for being in > the cycle of birth and death, and he taught the way to liberation > from the cycle.[1] > > DC: What I really wanted to emphasise is that we don't know that we > lived in the past and will live in the future. You will see > pondering such questions is considered 'ayonisomanasikaara' in the > Sabbaasava sutta of the MN. Buddhist kamma-theory is really a > corollary of Dependent Origination. And that starts with avijjaa- > delusion or not knowing. That is a characteristic of all beings. ------- N: Agreed, all beings have avijjaa, otherwise they would not be born. But avijjaa can be overcome by pa~n~naa, very, very gradually, in the course of countless lives. Speculating in the wrong way about past and future lives is not helpful. Like: what kind of being was I in the past? But considering what the Buddha taught about kamma and vipaaka, about kamma of the past that conditions rebirth, is important. ----------- > > DC: You can have confidence, yes. But that has no role in the > Buddhist path. To start the Buddhist path you need to come to > sammadi.t.thi. This is my understanding. -------- N: Yes, sammaadi.t.thi is foremost. There are many levels of it. It has to begin as correct intellectual understanding of what the Path factors are and how they are developed: through awareness and understanding of any reality that appears, even if it is akusala. Confidence, saddhaa, arises with each kusala citta and thus also with the development of the eightfold Path. If there is no confidence in the Dhamma the Path will not be developed. Nina. #76522 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:59 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 5, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, Some people believe that one should first develop síla, then samatha and after that vipassanå. When we read in the scriptures or the “Visuddhimagga” about the tripartite division of síla, samådhi (one- pointedness or concentration) and wisdom, misunderstandings may arise. However, when we read about this subject we should carefully consider all the different degrees of síla, samådhi and paññå which are implied. This division is not a rigid classification, but it is a systematic description of all levels of síla, samådhi and paññå. We read, for example, in the beginning of the “Visuddhimagga” (Ch I, 1), the following quotation from the “Kindred Sayings”(I, the Tangle): When a wise man, established well in Virtue, Develops Consciousness [1] and Understanding, Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tangle. “Tangle” is used here in the sense of the “network” of craving. Craving is like a network of branches which are entangled. The “Visuddhimagga” describes first síla, then the development of concentration and after that the development of right understanding. However, we should note that under síla he describes not only síla through bodily action and speech, but also síla which is purity of citta, síla which includes samatha and vipassanå. In Ch I, 19, the “Visuddhimagga” quotes the “Path of Discrimination”, where we read about all the different levels of síla. Included in síla are the subduing of the defilements which are the “hindrances”, the development of concentration and the different stages of jhåna, and also the stages of insight. We read, for example, about the stages of vipassanå: Through contemplation of impermanence in the case of perception of permanence... Through contemplation of dukkha in the case of perception of pleasure... through contemplation of not-self in the case of perception of self... through contemplation of dispassion in the case of delighting...virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Dispassion is the result of vipassanå ñåna. We read further on that included in síla are also the four stages of enlightenment up to arahatship when all defilements are eradicated and there are no conditions for their arising again. -------- 1. Citta, which stands for concentration. ******** Nina. #76523 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila nilovg Dear Han, Op 19-sep-2007, om 3:54 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But, can it not also mean that in kali-yuga, there are > more people (than in pre-kali-yuga age), who have the > real cause of suffering within, and who have no > understanding, and who have more accumulated akusala? N: it is hard to measure. People of all times have lobha, dosa and moha. Also formerly they were very cruel. Read: AN2.1.1 Vajja Sutta (1/1) for the cruel punishments We read it in our Pali list. < executing the 'gruel pot' torture, executing the 'shell tonsure' torture, executing the 'mouth of Rahu' torture, executing the 'fiery garland' torture, executing the 'torching hand' torture, executing the 'hay twist' torture, executing the 'bark dress' torture, : PTS in footnote: Co explains that the top of the skull is cut off and that theyput in a red hot iron ball. ------------ sandpapering the scalp with gravel until it is as smooth as a seasshell (sa”nkha). N: Raahu swallowed the moon. They opened the mouth and put in oil and a wick and lit Co: the body was smeared with oil and set afire. * 'torching hand' torture. N: the hand was made into a torch and set afire. --------- Co: the skin was flayed from the neck downwards and tied into a band by which he was hung up. --------- executing the 'antelope' torture, executing the 'flesh hooking' torture, executing the 'disc-slice' torture, executing the 'pickling process' torture, executing the 'cicling the pin' torture, executing the 'straw mattress. ... ------- Just reading about the French revolution, such cruelties, one does not believe one's eyes. ------ Nina. #76524 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:39 am Subject: What I heard. nilovg Dear friends, This is an extract from a Thai session in Bangkok. --------- What I heard. We should study and investigate the meaning of dhamma. What is dhamma does not belong to anyone, it has no owner. Seeing is dhamma, it is not ‘me’. It is dependent on conditions, on visible object and eysense. When we close our eyes, there is no seeing. Hearing hears sound through the ears. If sound does not impinge on the earsense there cannot be hearing. Phassa, a cetasika that is contact, is real. When seeing arises there is also contact that contacts visible object impinging on the eye so that seeing can see it. When hearing arises there is phassa that contacts sound impinging on the earsense so that hearing can hear it. We have to investigate dhammas and not be negligent as to this. We should not merely know the names of realities but realize their true charactreistics. It takes a long time to develop understanding (ciira kala bhavana), it must be developed so that it becomes ‘our own understanding’. We should not merely follow what has been said or what we heard, because than the truth cannot be realized. The Tipi.taka deals with characteristics of dhamma which can be gradually understood. When we listen to the Dhamma there is another world, the world of dhammas. Before we listened there was the world of ‘us’, of self, from the moment we were getting up until going to sleep. when we listen to the Dhamma we learn that what we used to take for self is merely dhamma with its own charactreistic. Everybody sees, there is nothing special about it. But we learn that there must be conditions for the arisibng of seeing. There are other naamas and ruupas that are indispensable conditions for the arising of seeing. The ruupa that is visible object impinges on the ruupa that is eyesense, there is an association between visible object and eyesense. Phassa (contact), which is naama, also ‘meets’ the object otherwise seeing cannot experience it. When we read suttas we may not understand that there is no self. But when we understand what paramatthas are, when we have understanding of the Abhidhamma, we know that realities are not ‘me’, that they are anattaa, we know that they do not belong to anybody and are beyond control. The arising of seeing and hearing do not depend on our will or wish. It is not possible that seeing arises whenever one wishes. The blind cannot see, even though they want to. The deaf cannot hear, even though they want to. Dhammas are anattaa, they need the appropriate conditions so that they can arise. ********** Nina. #76525 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:39 pm Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 kenhowardau Hi Sukin, > And Ken, you are only partly right about my motive, which is why I > was having a hard time relating your comment to my own. Ha ha, sorry about that! I wanted to answer for myself, but didn't want to appear to be distancing myself from you. :-) But, as I see it, you *were* talking about the people who follow wrong teachings rather than about the teachers themselves. After "This is self-view gone wild and being passed off as Dhamma" you added "And I'm sure it all started from demands by lobha for Dhamma to be more palatable." That's what reminded me of America's self-help industry. It is driven by lobha for easy, palatable answers - no matter how unbelievable those answers may be. In fact, the more unbelievable and sickly sweet the better. Eventually, the followers of the self-help gurus become helpless, drivelling idiots. Tune in to Dr Phil or Oprah and see what I mean. But there I go again, being disrespectful. Ken H #76526 From: Eve Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. eviebgreen Dear Nina, I know that I set my goal high, but I want to become a happier, healthier, and overall better person. With me I sometimes feel in order to achieve a goal is to set a high goal, but for me I will think of this as my overall goal in the longrun as it will take time to achieve it. Thank you for your reply and hope you have a good and peaceful Wednesday. -Evelyn #76527 From: "colette" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:49 am Subject: a Calm Person ksheri3 Good Morning Evie, Naturally Nina was the first to respond since she's involved in Vipshayana meditations which is a good coarse to begin, subscribe to her newsletter as soon as you can. It'll help you ease into buddhism smoothly learning all the lingo, buzz words, etc. while at the same time informing you of a valued methodology of meditation. I personally don't know any way to actually calm the nerves, blood pressure, racing thoughts, etc., other than to remove yourself from the daily grind, the monotenous routine of this hectic life specifically focussing on meditations. Here you will find yoga commonly prescribed, hatha, kriya, there are a dozens of different yogas but what you really want to do is relax, SLOW THIS CRAZY WORLD DOWN, as if George Jetson was screaming to his wife to turn off the dog's treadmil. Until you've practiced it and becomed accustomed to the occurances of Meditation what you're striving for is an Asana, which is nothing more than a constant posture, position, the body remains in during the meditation. You want this as comfortable as possible so that your Chi, your Prana, your lifeforce can travel freely to each health "center" of the body. It takes time to get the prana moving so don't feel discouraged. Your breathing controls everything so finding a comfortable position, Asana, to relax in while meditating wil assist you in SLOWING YOUR OUT-OF-CONTROL body down to reasonable levels. Yoga and breathing techniques combined are extremely helpfull in furthering the practice of meditation. Take your time, you've got lots of it, you will have to put in the work. But that's not the problem is it since you did find us here on your own, didn't you? Glad to have you aboard. Enjoy the ride! toodles, colette #76528 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Nina, You are right, Nina. The examples you have given were all horrifying. So, I will forget about kali-yuga and follow your advice. “The worst enemies are one's own defilements, especially lobha, dosa, and moha. These three make for trouble, for suffering, for distress. The real cause of suffering is within; it does not come from without. If there is no understanding, evermore akusala is accumulated.” At the same time, I will observe the five precepts evermore. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > N: it is hard to measure. > People of all times have lobha, dosa and moha. > Also formerly they were very cruel. #76529 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:42 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (66) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato XIII. The Section of the Groups of Twenty [Verses] 1. Ambapaaliitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 13 txt: Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.4.204-219)- "Yo ra.msiphusitaave.lo, phusso naama mahaamuni; tassaaha.m bhaginii aasi.m, ajaayi.m khattiye kule. "Tassa dhamma.m su.nitvaaha.m, vippasannena cetasaa; mahaadaana.m daditvaana, patthayi.m ruupasampada.m. "Ekati.mse ito kappe, sikhii lokagganaayako; uppanno lokapajjoto, tilokasara.no jino. "Tadaaru.napure ramme, brahma~n~nakulasambhavaa; vimuttacitta.m kupitaa, bhikkhuni.m abhisaapayi.m. "Vesikaava anaacaaraa, jinasaasanaduusikaa; eva.m akkosayitvaana, tena paapena kammunaa. "Daaru.na.m niraya.m gantvaa, mahaadukkhasamappitaa; tato cutaa manussesu, upapannaa tapassinii. Pruitt: As it is said in the Apadaana: [Ap 613f., n*39] The Great Sage named Phussa had a halo of coloured rays. I was his sister. I was born in a Khattiya family. I heard his Doctrine, and with a purified mind, I gave a great gift, wishing to attain beauty. Thirty-one aeons ago, the Supreme Leader of the World, the Light of the World, the Refuge of the Three Worlds, the Conqueror Sikhii arose. I was born in a brahman family in the delightful town of Aru.na. Being offended, I cursed a bhikkhunii whose mind was completely released. I was immoral, like a prostitute, a defiler of the teaching of the Conqueror. Having abused her in that way, because of that wicked deed, I went to a harsh hell and was subjected to great pain. When I passed away from there, I was reborn among men as a female ascetic. "Dasajaatisahassaani, ga.nikattamakaarayi.m; tamhaa paapaa na muccissa.m, bhutvaa du.t.thavisa.m yathaa. "Brahmacariyamasevissa.m, kassape jinasaasane; tena kammavipaakena, ajaayi.m tidase pure. "Pacchime bhave sampatte, ahosi.m opapaatikaa; ambasaakhantare jaataa, ambapaaliiti tenaha.m. "Parivutaa paa.nako.tiihi, pabbaji.m jinasaasane; pattaaha.m acala.m .thaana.m, dhiitaa buddhassa orasaa. "Iddhiisu ca vasii homi, sotadhaatuvisuddhiyaa; cetopariya~naa.nassa, vasii homi mahaamuni. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi daani punabbhavo. I performed the profession of a prostitute for ten thousand lives. I was not released from that evil [deed], just like one who has eaten a wicked poison. I pursued the holy life under the teaching of the Conqueror Kassapa. Afterwards, as a result of that deed, I was born in [the realm of] the Thirty. Having arrived at my final existence, I was born spontaneously. As I was born under the branches of a mango tree (amba), I was called Ambapaalii. Surrounded by crores of living creatures, I went forth in the teaching of the Conqueror. I obtained the unshakable spot. I am a true daughter of the Buddha. I have mastery of the supernormal powers. By means of the purity of the ear element, I have mastery of the knowledge of penetration of minds, O Great Sage. I know my previous lives; my divine eye has been purified. All my taints are consumed; now there is no renewed existence. "Atthadhammaniruttiisu, pa.tibhaane tatheva ca; ~naa.na.m me vimala.m suddha.m, buddhase.t.thassa vaahasaa. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa, kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. Through the power of the Best of Buddhas, the spotless, pure knowledge is mine, and knowledge has arisen in me of comprehension of meaning, states, and language. My depravities are burnt out, all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. Arahatta.m pana patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa udaanavasena taa eva gaathaa paccudaahaasiiti. Ambapaaliitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. After attaining Arahatship and looking over her attainment, she repeated these verses as a solemn utterance. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Ambapaalii. === peace, connie #76530 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:28 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,193 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 193. In the course of an existence, in all places where materiality occurs there is manifested the temperature-originated bare [material] octad, which is due [initially] to the temperature that occurred together with the rebirth-linking consciousness at the moment of its presence.36 Rebirth-linking consciousness does not originate materiality. For, just as a man who is falling into a chasm cannot support another, so it, too, is unable to originate materiality because of its weakness, which is due to the weakness of the physical basis. But from the first life-continuum after the rebirth-linking consciousness onwards, the bare octad originated by consciousness appears. And at the time when sound becomes manifest there is the sound ennead due both to temperature occurring after the moment of rebirth-linking and to consciousness. -------------------- Note 36. 'This means, due to the heat element in the materiality that arose together with the rebirth-linking consciousness. It is because the heart-basis is arisen only at that very moment, that there is weakness of the physical basis' (Pm.622). ******************* 193. pavatte pana sabbattha ruupappavattidese pa.tisandhicittassa .thitikkha.ne pa.tisandhicittena saha pavatta ututo utusamu.t.thaana.m suddha.t.thaka.m paatubhavati. pa.tisandhicitta.m pana ruupa.m na samu.t.thaapeti. ta~nhi yathaa papaate patitapuriso parassa paccayo hotu.m na sakkoti, eva.m vatthudubbalataaya dubbalattaa ruupa.m samu.t.thaapetu.m na sakkoti. pa.tisandhicittato pana uddha.m pa.thamabhava"ngato pabhuti cittasamu.t.thaana.m suddha.t.thaka.m, saddapaatubhaavakaale pa.tisandhikkha.nato uddha.m pavatta ututo ceva cittato ca saddanavaka.m. #76531 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Siila indriyabala Dear Han and Nina, - I have just one question to ask you both. > Nina: > "The worst enemies are one's own defilements, > especially lobha, dosa, and moha. These three make for > trouble, for suffering, for distress. The real cause > of suffering is within; it does not come from without. > If there is no understanding, evermore akusala is > accumulated." > T: Does "the real cause of suffering is within" mean citta creates the defilements? I would like to understand the process in which trouble or suffering is made from "one's own defilements". Thanks. Tep === #76532 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:17 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > No, you have not made it clear even now. Again, same questions can > be asked : why present this article ? Do you think it does the job it > claims to do ? Why is it a contribution? Are you now the DSG police? ;-)) I am presenting this booklet because I like it and I thought it would be worthwhile to this group. Sarah also encouraged me to post it so before you bring legal action against me, check with her. ;-)) Metta, James #76533 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Tep and Nina, Tep: Does "the real cause of suffering is within" mean citta creates the defilements? I would like to understand the process in which trouble or suffering is made from "one's own defilements" . Han: (1) In the Four Noble Truths, the real cause of suffering (dukkha sacca) is tanhaa.(samudaya sacca). Tanhaa arises within oneself. Therefore, the real cause of suffering is within. (2) Akusala cittas and accompanying akusala cetasikas themselves ARE defilements. It is not that citta creates defilements. (3) Sufferings are caused by one’s own defilements. But since this is originated by Nina, I will request Nina to answer your question. Respectfully, Han #76534 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:19 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,193 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.671: In procedure at the static moment of rebirth-consciousness, everywhere at the place of procedure of matter there are manifested the bare octad set up by the caloric order arising together with the rebirth-consciousness. But the rebirth-consciousness does not set up matter, for it is unable to do so owing to weakness from the weakness of the physcial basis, just as a man fallen from a precipice cannot give help to another man. The bare octad set up by consciousnes [560] appears since {read pabhutii citta*} the beginning of the life-continuum above the rebirth-consciousness. At the time of the appearance of sound the ennead of sound appears by means of the caloric order and consciousnes proceeding beyond the moment of rebirth. #76535 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to Phil - Part 4 nilovg Dear Sukin, Op 19-sep-2007, om 5:45 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: N: We do not understand much yet, I would say. S> Yes, but even that might have been said with `self', in reality only `panna' can know. Layer after layer of self deception needs to be seen through, and this can never happen without the help of all the paramis being developed. ------ N: If you can tell more about these layers with examples I think it can be helpful for many. ------ > S:Yesterday Ivan and I went to meet Knowing who hadn't appeared at > the foundation for five weeks. We found him looking as he always did. > However he said that his health has in fact grown worst. -------- N: Greetings to Knowing if you an contact him. Maybe he can now take trips to Bgk when there are special meetings at the foundation. Nina. #76536 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila nilovg Dear Han, anumodana. Nina. Op 19-sep-2007, om 23:01 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > At the same time, I will observe the five precepts > evermore. -------- #76537 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. nilovg Dear Evie, Op 19-sep-2007, om 19:40 heeft Eve het volgende geschreven: > I know that I set my goal high, but I want to become > a happier, healthier, and overall better person. With > me I sometimes feel in order to achieve a goal is to > set a high goal, but for me I will think of this as my > overall goal in the longrun as it will take time to > achieve it. -------- N: It will take aeons. But the right cause will bring the right result. So, from the beginning a cause has to be cultivated little by little. What do you think? How to begin? Have a peaceful Thursday, Nina. #76538 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:47 pm Subject: The Blind Turtle! bhikkhu0 Friends: Precious yet quite often wasted is this Human Opportunity! The Blessed Gotama Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus & friends, imagine a single floating ring drifting in the great oceans! Imagine also a blind turtle, which surfaces only once every hundred years... What do you think, Bhikkhus, would that blind turtle by chance often dive right up under this randomly drifting single ring & insert its neck in the hole? If it ever would at all, Sir, it would only happen after an incredibly long time! Yet, Bhikkhus & friends, I tell you, that this would happen sooner, than a fool who has fallen to the lower worlds would again regain this rare human state... Why so? Because down there exists neither behaviour guided by the Dhamma, nor any honesty, nor any morality, nor any good doing or meritorious activity... There prevails only this evil: beat or be beaten, eat or be eaten, and merciless killing and voraciously swallowing up of any weak. Why is it so primitive there? Because, Bhikkhus, there nobody have seen these 4 Noble Truths! <...> Therefore should an effort be made now to understand the 4 Noble Truths! Comment: Despite the fact that downfall is a common event occurring at most deaths (>97%) many beings think that the downfall either not happen to them (sic!), or that it does not exist at all... They cannot remember last nasty surprise... Learning anything about cause and effect is thus effectively disabled! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta NikÄ?ya. [V:455-6] section 56: Saccasamyutta. Thread 47: The Ring and Blind Turtle ... Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <...> Precious & rare is this human chance! #76539 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:33 am Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 sukinderpal Hi Ken, Sarah, Robert, Nina, All, ============== > And Ken, you are only partly right about my motive, which is why I > was having a hard time relating your comment to my own. Ken: Ha ha, sorry about that! I wanted to answer for myself, but didn't want to appear to be distancing myself from you. :-) Sukin: I think I understand what you mean. If I had more energy, you would see me make comments everywhere. But lucky for everyone else, I'm very lazy. :-) ============== Ken: But, as I see it, you *were* talking about the people who follow wrong teachings rather than about the teachers themselves. After "This is self-view gone wild and being passed off as Dhamma" you added "And I'm sure it all started from demands by lobha for Dhamma to be more palatable." Sukin: Yes, and to quote Sarah: <> So much moha arises; I am what you might call "scatter brained". Of course each citta is accompanied by sanna; therefore all experiences are `marked'. Perhaps it is that lobha is very much there both in leading and following, including one immediately after any kusala intention. Therefore of all the intentions involved before there can arise any act through speech or body, some stand out and form the thoughts about this or that being `my motive' etc.…? And why not, citta arises and falls so fast with ever changing objects. The concepts created must also have associations with many other concepts reacted to in the past. One might therefore say that multi-layered stories are running at the same time (conventionally speaking). All the more reason not to be taken in by explanations we try to give ourselves. Moreover, conventional terms and explanations being quite misleading, including my "scatter brain" above, I therefore consider Abhidhamma a boon. Not only am I reminded of the various cittas and cetasikas involved and to be careful about mistaking one for the other, the very fact of them being reference to "momentary realities" helps cut through any tendency to think in terms of "wholes". Some mistakenly think that as a result of the Abhidhamma analysis, one is meant to try and `catch realities' and are therefore put off. I'd say however, that this serves the purpose of discouraging thinking in terms of wholes and hence not to be drawn to go the wrong way. In other words, it encourages to better understanding the concept / reality distinction. ============= Ken: That's what reminded me of America's self-help industry. It is driven by lobha for easy, palatable answers - no matter how unbelievable those answers may be. Sukin: And as I indicated above, I don't have to look too far to see delusion take effect. In fact even while verbalizing Abhidhamma concepts, how many actual moments of wise reflection are there? I know that much of the time I use them unreflecting, to explain an experience. Hence the supreme value of "wise attention". This failing to arise, I appreciate in the meantime, your own reminder about there being `only dhammas each moment'. ;-) ============== Ken: In fact, the more unbelievable and sickly sweet the better. Eventually, the followers of the self-help gurus become helpless, drivelling idiots. Sukin: Yes, this goes to the extreme. But to a lesser extent, so do followers of `religion' or `science'. Actually, I see my own tendency to being deluded and `led' by explanations, and it does not matter whether this is through my own reasoning or that of another's, ultimately moha and lobha *do* their job. Of course I could say that having come to know about Dhamma and especially Right and Wrong View; I'm better off than they. But so what, this is only thinking! ============== Ken: Tune in to Dr Phil or Oprah and see what I mean. Sukin: I don't like watching these kinds of shows. A good film is what I prefer. And talking about this, last night I saw a really neat Australian production, "Ten Canoes", have you seen it? ============== Ken: But there I go again, being disrespectful. Sukin: I know that your intention has always been to show the wrongness of the wrong to those who can appreciate it. Therefore it is never a case of being disrespectful. Neither have I seen any hint of you showing any moral or intellectual superiority. And why would you? It's so silly. :-) ============== As usual, a long response from me. So much mana is involved in all this and also I guess, an attachment to stories, finding in them a more attractive way of explaining things and in the process being deceived somewhat. ;-p As I said to Nina, layers and layers of self-deception to go through. Actually a better picture might be that there is avijja and tanha at every turn. And to think that `formal meditation' helps in this regard.....:-/ Metta, Sukin #76540 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:38 am Subject: An Introduction to Buddhism- 2 buddhatrue Hi All, An Introduction to Buddhism by Ven. Dr. H. Saddhatissa THE BUDDHA: A prince of the warrior class in Aryan society named Siddhattha Gotama who had renounced family life came down from the foothills of the Himalayas to north-central India. After studying and rejecting the philosophical systems that were then being taught, he attained Enlightenment on his own account: he became the Buddha, the `Enlightened One.' Modern historians agree that this occurred in or about 525 B.C. at Bodh-Gaya in Bihar. From there, Gotama journeyed to Varanasi where, at the time of the full moon of July, he gave his famous first discourse and thus "Set in motion the Wheel of the Law." He worked incessantly for the good and happiness of the many and passed away at the age of 80 leaving no successor but exhorting his disciples to regard the Dhamma as their teacher. HIS TEACHING: The teachings (Dhamma) of the Buddha have come to be known as Buddhism and at one time it prevailed throughout Asia. During 25 centuries it has mingled with the traditional beliefs and religions of many lands, enhancing them with the purity of its philosophy. Thus in modern times there are about 300 million Buddhists in the world, found mainly in India, China, Taiwan, Siberia, Japan, Tibet, Korea, Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka, Malaysia and Singapore with large minorities in Western countries, notably England, France, West Germany and the U.S.A., and also in Indo-China. Opening his first discourse, the Buddha asked his disciples to avoid extremes of sensual indulgence and self-mortification, "Sensual indulgence is low, course, vulgar, ignoble, and unprofitable; and self-mortification is painful, ignoble, and unprofitable", he said, because the former retards one's spiritual progress and the latter weakens one's intellect. The Buddha himself put into practice both these extremes before his enlightenment; the first when he was a prince in his father's palace before he renounced the world; the second as an ascetic in the forest prior to his enlightenment. Hence he realized their futility and discovered that only self-conquest in moderation leads to the ultimate goal of nibbana or nirvana. Avoiding the two extremes, the Buddha therefore asked his followers to take the Middle Way which "Opens the eyes and bestows understanding, which leads to peace of mind, to the higher wisdom, to full enlightenment." In fact, according to the First Noble Truth, life is subject to `suffering'. This is the relevant passage: "Now this is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, decay is suffering, disease is suffering, death is suffering, association with things one dislikes is suffering, separation from things one likes is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering. In short the five aggregates of clinging are suffering." When these conditions are analyzed one by one we can see how painful they are. Eveyrone of us has to face these conditions in our journey through life, Impermanence is a universal fact. There is nothing born or condition which is not subject to this universal law. Hence the logic of the Buddha's saying that whatever is impermanent is also painful. So even the so-called pleasures end in pain, this proves the truth of the statement that all conditions of life based on attachment are painful. The Second Noble Truth is that this suffering is caused by ignorance which results in desire. All things and events are related as causes and effects. There is nothing in the phenomenal world which falls outside the cause-effect relation. So, like everything else, suffering has its cause and that cause is to be found not outside us, but within us. Now what is that cause? It is self-centered desire. Selfish desires are based on egoism and manifest in different forms- quarrelling, fighting, etc. The Third Noble Truth is that this suffering can be eliminated by the removal of desire. We now, know that selfish desire is the cause of suffering. When the cause is removed, the effect will naturally cease. When desire is destroyed, suffering will also come to an end. Cessation of suffering is the negative result and the attainment of the bliss of nibbana is the positive result. In other words, with the attainment of nibbana there will be an end to all suffering. The Fourth Noble Truth is the path to eliminate desire. One can, therefore, put an end to suffering by adopting and following the path- the Middle Way which to the Buddhist is the philosophy of life itself. The Middle Way of self-conquest which leads to the ultimate goals is eightfold, namely:… To be continued…THE MIDDLE WAY, THE THREEFOLD TRAINING Metta, James #76541 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:55 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi James, - This is a classical case when innocent-but-formal questions are interpreted as poking. Are we living in the kali-yuga now? > > > > No, you have not made it clear even now. Again, same questions can > > be asked : why present this article ? Do you think it does the job it > > claims to do ? Why is it a contribution? > > Are you now the DSG police? ;-)) I am presenting this booklet because > I like it and I thought it would be worthwhile to this group. Sarah > also encouraged me to post it so before you bring legal action against > me, check with her. ;-)) > T: I apologize for having caused that reaction. However, to be appointed as a "DSG police" isn't bad -- it might be fun handcuffing guilty people. ;-)) Tep === #76542 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Siila indriyabala Dear Han, Thank you for bearing with my innocent-but-formal question. I have more. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tep and Nina, > > Tep: > Does "the real cause of suffering is within" mean > citta creates the defilements? I would like to > understand the process in which trouble or suffering > is made from "one's own defilements" . > > Han: > (1) In the Four Noble Truths, the real cause of > suffering (dukkha sacca) is tanhaa.(samudaya sacca). > Tanhaa arises within oneself. Therefore, the real > cause of suffering is within. > > (2) Akusala cittas and accompanying akusala cetasikas > themselves ARE defilements. It is not that citta > creates defilements. > > (3) Sufferings are caused by one's own defilements. > > But since this is originated by Nina, I will request > Nina to answer your question. > > T: (1) Isn't tanha a kind of defilement, or is it akusala cetasika? Is tanha a perpetual reality that arises independent of citta? (2) If citta doesn't create akusala cetasikas, then is citta one entity and cetasika another? Do cetasikas arise via their own (separate) conditions? (3) How is trouble or suffering made from "one's own defilements"? Thanks. Tep === #76543 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila nilovg Dear Tep (and Han), I think Han explained very well the cause of dukkha. I can add something to your questions. Op 20-sep-2007, om 10:21 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > T: (1) Isn't tanha a kind of defilement, or is it akusala cetasika? > Is tanha a perpetual reality that arises independent of citta? ------- N: Tanha is lobha cetasika, and cetasikas never arise alone, they accompany citta. Citta and its accompanying cetasikas arise together, at the same base, they share the same object and they fall away together. Citta does not arise without cetasikas and cetasikas cannot arise without citta. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas are of the same jaati or class: kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. --------- > T: (2) If citta doesn't create akusala cetasikas, then is citta one > entity and cetasika another? Do cetasikas arise via their own > (separate) conditions? --------- N: See above, never without citta. When citta is vipaaka also the accompanying cetasikas are vipaaka, produced by kamma. Cetasikas do not have separate conditions. --------- > T:(3) How is trouble or suffering made from "one's own defilements"? -------- N: The expression one's own means: in the stream of cittas of this individual, different from another individual. The expression individual is conventional language, but this is necessary to denote different streams of consciousness. Defilements are accumulated from citta to citta, from life to life and these condition the arising of akusala citta. Akusala citta causes trouble in life. There is also the receiving of unpleasant vipaaka through the senses and this is caused by accumulated kamma. Here the Buddha also used conventional language to express the truth: kamma is one's own, beings are heirs to deeds. Nina. #76544 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (16) nilovg Dear Han, thank you for your food for thought, this is always welcome. Op 19-sep-2007, om 4:25 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > “The present moment” or “at this very moment” is often > used. How can I define “the present moment”? Is it one > second, or one minute? Or, is it the duration of “one” > citta? Or, is it that one should know a citta when it > arises immediately at the very moment of its arising? ----------- N: Very good you ask, since we speak all the time about the present moment. We could not catch one citta or know it at the moment of its arising. When we are seeing now, it seems that seeing lasts for a while. In reality it is one short moment arising in a process of cittas and these fall away to be followed by a mind-door process of cittas that also experience visible object. But visible object impinges on the eyesense again and seeing arises again and again. We cannot count the processes, but what can be known is a characteristic of seeing as different from hearing, a characteristic of sound as different from visible object, a characteristic of dosa as different from seeing. We do not try to catch the exact moment. Thus, usually we say: the characteristic of a reality appearing at the present moment. We use the term 'appearing'. When sati arises, they appear to sati, one at a time. --------- > H: For me, for all practical purposes, when I am angry, > if I know that I am angry before I can retaliate > bodily or verbally, that will be good enough for me. ------ N: This is a level of siila, not to give in to anger by action or speech. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Then we can learn something from our akusala, we can learn that it has its own conditions for its arising. That anger has no owner. Or, we can learn that also abstaining from bad action and speech is dependent on conditions, such as accumulations of abstaining in the past. If there were no kusala in the past it could not arise today. --------- > In Mahaasatipatthaana sutta, in cittaanupassanaa, the > Buddha said “saraagam vaa cittam saraagam cittanti > pajaanaati.” To know mind affected by lust as mind > affected by lust.” The Buddha did not say: “at this > very moment.” ---------- N: satipatthana is not thinking, it is the development of direct understanding. Direct understanding of citta is developed by knowing its characteristic when it appears to sati. Thus, pajaanaati, understanding, implies here not knowing by thinking about a citta, but realizing its characteristic as it appears at the present moment. > > ========= > Han: > I want to share with you an interesting statement made > by U Shwe Aung, a Burmese scholar, with regard to the > perfection of determination. .... To sum up: > > (1) If there is no perfection of determination, there > are no other perfections. > (2) If there are no other perfections, there is no > perfection of determination. ------- Thank you for sharing. All the perfections are interrelated and connected. It is important to be unshakable as to the development of the way leading to the eradication of defilements, unshakable in the performing of all kinds of kusala, also at this very moment! NIna. #76545 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Tep, Thank you very much for your innocent-but-formal questions. I will try my best to answer them. T: (1) Isn't tanha a kind of defilement, or is it akusala cetasika? Is tanha a perpetual reality that arises independent of citta? Han: I said: “Akusala cittas and accompanying akusala cetasikas themselves ARE defilements.” So you are right. Tanha is a defilement (an akusala citta accompanied akusala cetasika). I don’t know what you mean by “perpetual reality.” I am not that expert. If you know the answer, please tell me. There are eight lobha-mula cittas which are akusala cittas: (1) Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikam ekam (One consciousness, accompanied by joy, associated with wrong view, unprompted) (2) Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam sasankharikam ekam (One consciousness, accompanied by joy, associated with wrong view, prompted) (3) Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-vippayuttam asankharikam ekam (One consciousness, accompanied by joy, dissociated from wrong view, unprompted) (4) Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-vippayuttam sasankharikam ekam (One consciousness, accompanied by joy, dissociated from wrong view, prompted) (5) Upekkha-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikam ekam (consciousness, accompanied by indifference, associated with wrong view, unprompted) (6) Upekkha-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam sasankharikam ekam (consciousness, accompanied by indifference, associated with wrong view, prompted) (7) Upekkha-sahagatam ditthigata-vippayuttam asankharikam ekam (consciousness, accompanied by indifference, dissociated from wrong view, unprompted) (8) Upekkha-sahagatam ditthigata-vippayuttam sasankharikam ekam (consciousness, accompanied by indifference, dissociated from wrong view, prompted) And the underlying lobha cetasika belongs to lobha-tri cetasikas, which belong to 14 akusala cetasikas. Lobha-tri cetasikas are: (i) lobha (ii) ditthi (iii) maana -------------------- Tep: (2) If citta doesn't create akusala cetasikas, then is citta one entity and cetasika another? Do cetasikas arise via their own (separate) conditions? Han: I did not use the word “create” in the first place. It was you who used the word “create” in the first place. Citta is one entity and cetasika is another, but they arise together. A cetasika has the following four characteristics: (i) It arises together with citta. (ii) It perishes together with citta. (iii) It takes the same object which citta takes. (iv) It shares a common physical base (vatthu) with citta. -------------------- Tep: (3) How is trouble or suffering made from "one's own defilements"? Han: I said: “(3) Sufferings are caused by one’s own defilements,” which is self-explanatory. But to make it more clear, I would like to refer to the Four Noble Truths. The sufferings (dukkha sacca) is caused by tanha, a defilement (samudaya sacca). -------------------- Dear friend Tep, I know you have reasons to ask your innocent-but-formal questions. You never ask silly questions. I have answered to the best of my ability. I will be grateful to know your answers to your own questions. Respectfully, Han #76546 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (16) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. In particular, I like your explanation on “the present moment.” N: Very good you ask, since we speak all the time about the present moment. We could not catch one citta or know it at the moment of its arising. When we are seeing now, it seems that seeing lasts for a while. In reality it is one short moment arising in a process of cittas and these fall away to be followed by a mind-door process of cittas that also experience visible object. But visible object impinges on the eyesense again and seeing arises again and again. We cannot count the processes, but what can be known is a characteristic of seeing as different from hearing, a characteristic of sound as different from visible object, a characteristic of dosa as different from seeing. We do not try to catch the exact moment. Thus, usually we say: the characteristic of a reality appearing at the present moment. We use the term 'appearing'. When sati arises, they appear to sati, one at a time. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #76547 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:43 am Subject: Re: "there is no �person�Equot; - "The controversy on �person�Eis ended" scottduncan2 Dear Ken. Thanks for the reply: K: "Yes, we agree that thoughts (concepts) do not really exist. Thinking, however, is a function of various namas that do exist. Therefore, thinking is real." Scott: Yeah, by conditions there is thinking arising again and again and appearing to be continuous; which of course is only how it seems. In studying thinking I notice, in a rudimentary way, that when it is known that it is 'thinking' the object of thinking (or the 'thought' or 'content' or what the thinking seems to be about) is not important. The thinking itself has its own quality which can be known and this is not really related to the content or object of thinking. K: "(Just to confuse matters we sometimes use the word 'thinking' to refer to thoughts.)" Scott: Would it be fair to say that a distinction can be made such that by 'thinking' one refers to the reality and by 'thoughts' one refers to the concepts or, in other words, the object of this reality? K: "It's a tricky business, isn't it? We can say that wholesome namas perform wholesome functions and unwholesome namas perform unwholesome functions. Therefore, we can say there is wholesome thinking and there is unwholesome thinking. When the namas that think are accompanied by alobha, adosa and other wholesome namas, they too are wholesome, and so is their thinking." Scott: I guess that whether the thought is kusala or akusala is simply a function of the nature of citta - whether it is kusala or akusala - of which a given thought is object. K: "Therefore, when wholesome namas produce the thought, "The man is holding a knife" they are performing a wholesome function. When unwholesome namas produce the thought "The man is holding a knife," they are performing an unwholesome function. Spot the difference! :-)" Scott: This is quite complex, really, isn't it? In what sense is it meant when one says, 'wholesome naamas produce the thought'? In other words, how is a thought 'produced'? Citta and cetasika arise and fall away, being realities. The reality 'thinking' arises and falls away but if the object of thinking is concept, then this cannot be said to arise and fall away, since concept is not a reality. In the above example I'm imagining that it would have been visible object and seeing which would have lead to the thought 'The man is holding the knife'. An analysis of that thought shows that it is not referring to even a single reality; just concepts - 'a man', 'a knife', and 'holding'. In order for the thought 'The man is holding a knife' to be either kusala or akusala, it would have to depend on whether the thinking is kusala or akusala. If the thinking is akusala, then one can imagine that visible object and seeing, which lead naturally to thinking of concepts, will be taken for reality and the appearance of 'the man holding the knife' will then appear to have meaning and serve as object for thinking about a man, a knife, and what he is holding it for. Actually, though, wouldn't the thinking be kusala due to, say, pa~n~naa arising after seeing visible object, knowing it is visible object and conditioning another sort of thinking about naturally occuring concepts such as 'the man holding the knife'? I know you don't prefer to take things this far, but I couldn't help thinking about it... Sincerely, Scott. #76548 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: > Hi Jon, - > >> Jon: >> You say "the real Buddha (who existed)". Isn't there a sutta where >> the Buddha deals with the question of whether the Tathaagatha can >> be said to exist or not? >> > > T: Can you quote the part you want to discuss, so we can start with > that in the next message? > Now that I'm back in the 'real world', I'd like to withdraw my previous remark about the sutta dealing with the question of whether the Tathaagata can be said to exist or not. I was getting mixed up. Blame it on the Fijian kava wine (just kidding, of course). > I wonder why doubt whether the Buddha existed!! How can anyone call > himself/herself a Buddhist without the faith that the Buddha existed > and that He taught the Dhamma that is "lovely at the beginning, > lovely in the middle, lovely at the ending, with the spirit and the > letters" ? > The question is not whether there was a Buddha or not, but what the Buddha had to say about the world of people and things and the world of khandhas and dhatus. See for example SN 22:85 quoted by Sarah recently (post #76173), where Sariputta summarises the understanding of Yamaka, who correctly understood the 5 khandhas, as: "the Tathaagata is not apprehended by you as real and actual in this very life". In other words, and enlightened being does not take people as being "real and actual". > Of course, He existed. But who can confirm the truth that the Buddha > existed more convincingly than the Buddha himself? > > "Even so, Aggivessana, does a Tathagata arise here in the world, a > perfected one, fully Self-Awakened One, endowed with right knowledge > and conduct, well-farer, knower of the worlds, the matchless > charioteer of men to be tamed, the Awakened One, the Lord. He makes > known this world with the devas, with Mara, with Brahma, the creation > with its recluses and brahmans, its devas and men, having realized > them by his own super-knowledge. He teaches dhamma which is lovely at > the beginning, lovely in the middle, lovely at the ending, with the > spirit and the letters; he proclaims the Brahma-faring, wholly > fulfilled, quite purified. A householder or a householder's son or > one born in another family hears that dhamma. Having heard that > dhamma he gains faith in the Tathagata." [MN 125] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.125.horn.html > > T: If the Tathagata did not exist, then who discovered the Dhamma and > how could the Dhamma be made known to this world with the devas, > Mara, Brahma, and men? > The existence of the Tathaagatha as a historical fact is not in question. Existence in the ultimate sense is the issue. Jon #76549 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:45 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 5, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, If someone believes that he, as a layman, should first keep the five precepts and that he then can develop samatha and after that vipassanå, he overlooks the fact that there is no self who can regulate this. The Buddha taught satipatthåna so that the wrong view of self can be eradicated. Through satipatthåna right understanding is developed and without satipatthåna síla cannot become “well established”. For the sotåpanna who has developed vipassanå, síla is “well established”. Through satipatthåna there can be training in “higher síla” (adhi-síla sikkhå), “higher citta” (adhi-citta sikkhå) and “higher wisdom” (adhi-paññå sikkhå). As to higher citta or concentration, this includes all levels of concentration, not merely jhåna. Concentration, samådhi, is the cetasika which is one- pointedness, ekaggatå cetasika. It arises with each citta and has the function of focussing the citta on one object. When satipatthåna arises, ekkagatå cetasika “concentrates” for that short moment on the nåma or rúpa which appears so that understanding of that reality can develop. In the development of samatha concentration is developed to a high degree so that jhåna can be attained, but this cannot be achieved without paññå which has right understanding of the citta and cetasikas which develop calm. In the “Visuddhimagga” all levels of concentration, jhåna included, are described, but this does not mean that everybody must develop jhåna in order to attain enlightenment. Instead of thinking of classifications and names or thinking of a specific order as to the development of síla, concentration and paññå, we can gradually develop understanding of the nåma and rúpa which appear and then there is training in higher síla, higher citta and higher paññå. Even when attachment arises there can be mindfulness of it and at that moment one does not harm anyone; that is síla. Or we may be inclined to engage in wrong speech, such as slandering or useless speech, but if sati arises and it is aware of nåma or rúpa, there are conditions to abstain from akusala. We speak many times in a day, but do we know whether our speech is kusala or akusala? We need to know the nature of citta so that there can be training in higher síla. We are inclined to observe síla with an idea of self who has síla. When satipatthåna is being developed síla can become free from the wrong view of self. Then there will be purity of síla, “síla visuddhi” [1]. ----------- 1. Suddhi means brightness, excellence, and the prefix vi has here an intensifying meaning. ******** Nina. #76550 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:45 am Subject: Conditions Ch 15, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Wrong view (micchå-ditthi) is an akusala cetasika arising with four types of lobha-múla-citta. There can be wrong view about kamma and vipåka, one may believe that good and bad deeds do not produce their appropriate results. It is wrong view to take realities for permanent or for “self”. Wrong view conditions wrong practice of the Dhamma, it conditions taking the wrong path for the right path. This happens, for example, when someone believes that he should not be aware of akusala, that akusala should be suppressed before vipassanå can be developed. By understanding that akusala citta is conditioned by numerous factors, some of which are stemming from the past, and some of which are factors of the present, we can be reminded to be aware of akusala in order to see it as a conditioned nåma, not self. When someone teaches wrong practice the speech he utters is a kind of rúpa produced by citta. Wrong view conditions that speech by way of path-condition. The “Patthåna” (in the same section, § 432, V), under the heading of akusala dhamma which conditions indeterminate dhamma, states that akusala path-factors condition mind-produced rúpa by way of path-condition. As we have seen, indeterminate dhamma, avyåkata dhamma, is neither kusala nor akusala. In the following definition indeterminate dhamma means rúpa. We read: (V) Faulty state (akusala dhamma) is related to indeterminate state by path-condition. Faulty path-factors are related to mind-produced matter by path- condition. In the next item, under the section of akusala dhamma which conditions (another) akusala dhamma and indeterminate dhamma, the “Patthåna” states that akusala path-factors condition the accompanying citta and cetasikas and also rúpa produced by citta by way of path-condition. We read: (VI) Faulty state is related to faulty and indeterminate state by path-condition. Faulty path-factors are related to (their) associated khandhas and mind-produced matter by path-condition. Wrong thinking (micchå-sankappa) is the cetasika vitakka, thinking, which “touches” the object so that citta can cognize it. This factor can also condition wrong speech by way of path-condition. When we slander, wrong thinking conditions the words we utter by way of path- condition. Wrong effort (micchå-våyåma) is viriya cetasika which is akusala. It strengthens and supports the accompanying dhammas so that they can perform their functions in an unwholesome way. Wrong concentration (micchå-samådhi) is ekaggatå cetasika which conditions citta to focus on one object. Wrong concentration conditions akusala citta to focus on the object in an unwholesome way. ****** Nina. #76551 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:41 am Subject: Re: Asoka, Ch 5, no 9. nidive Hi Nina, > If someone believes that he, as a layman, should first keep the > five precepts and that he then can develop samatha and after that > vipassanå, he overlooks the fact that there is no self who can > regulate this. Seriously, Nina, in light of MN 39 (a favourite of Howard), I think what you said above is erroneous. This sequence is just what the Buddha taught in MN 39. If we have any faith in the Buddha, then we must believe that the sequence taught in MN 39 is true & valid. Swee Boon #76552 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views nidive Hi Jon, > So while we live in a world of Swee Boon and Jon, nominee and > proposer, we understand (at an intellectual level) that in truth > and reality there is no single dhamma that is Swee Boon or Jon; > only dhammas that we take in combination to be Swee Boon and Jon. > Swee Boon and Jon are 'composites' that are mentally construed out > of the experience of multiple individual dhammas. Have you seen a documentary on National Geographic on the construction of the A380 superjumbo jet that will be making its historic flight on Singapore Airlines this October? You can say that in reality, there is no A380 superjumbo jet. It is made up of thousands of parts that are connected intricately to give the impression and mechanics of a A380 superjumbo jet. Similarly, you can say that in reality, there is no physical body of a person. It is made up of the heart, liver, kidneys, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, skin, brain, tendons, blood vessels, arteries, spinal nerves etc. If the aeroplane is a concept, you wouldn't have landed in Fiji. If the physical body of Jon is a concept, I wouldn't have read your reply. Jon, this busines of 'concepts being unreal & not existing' has got nothing to do with the Dhamma. It's pure intellectual fantasy. But I am not going to stop you from indulging in this mind-made fantasy. It's not as if I could anyway. Enjoy! Swee Boon #76553 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:16 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi James, - > > This is a classical case when innocent-but-formal questions are > interpreted as poking. Are we living in the kali-yuga now? > T: I apologize for having caused that reaction. However, to be > appointed as a "DSG police" isn't bad -- it might be fun handcuffing > guilty people. ;-)) I just joked with you so that you wouldn't be so serious with your questions. Glad that you joked back! :-) What is a kali-yuga? Metta, James #76554 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:34 am Subject: Threefold Training is Sequential (Re: Asoka, Ch 5, no 8.) buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Some people believe that one should first develop síla, then samatha > and after that vipassan? When we read in the scriptures or the > "Visuddhimagga?about the tripartite division of síla, samådhi (one- > pointedness or concentration) and wisdom, misunderstandings may > arise. I'm not sure why you write this because Buddhaghosa did describe the Threefold Training as sequential in the Vism.: "The dispensation's goodness in the beginning is shown by Virtue. Because of the passage 'And what is the beginning of profitable things? Virtue that is quite purified' and because of the passage beginning 'The not doing of any evil', Virtue is the beginning of the dispensation. And that is good because it brings about the special qualities of non-remorse, and so on. Its goodness in the middle is shown by Concentration. Because of the passage beginning 'Entering upon the profitable', Concentration is the middle of the dispensation. And that is good because it brings about the special qualities of supernormal-power, and so on. Its goodness in the end is shown by Understanding. Because of the passage 'The purifying of One's own mind- -this is the Buddha's dispensation', and because understanding is its culmination, Understanding is the end of the dispensation. And that is good because it brings about equipoise with respect to the desired and the undesired." Vism. I, 10 Metta, James #76555 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is no person, to DC. dcwijeratna Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your reply. I am still unable to fully understand some points. It is possible that the meanings we attach to Pali words are different. Take this for example: > N: The pa~n~naa developed in vipassana > greatly supports siila. When one thinks less of my siila, there are > conditions for all kinds of siila, siila as varita and siila as > carita, such as helping, paying respect. DC: In the above, in what sense are you using Pa~n~naa and vipassanaa? PTS Dictionary has a full article on pa~n~naa. Here are some of the meanings given in the first line: intelligence, com- prising all the higher faculties of cognition, "intellect as conversant with general truths" (Dial. ii.68), reason, wisdom, insight, knowledge, recognition. For vipassanaa: Vipassanâ (f.) [fr. vi+passati; BSk. vipaúyanâ, e. g. Divy 44, 95, 264 etc.] inward vision, insight, intuition, introspection. I also quote a portion of the article on pa~n~naa in Ven. Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary [p.144]. PA~N~NAA: 'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a very wide field. The specific Buddhist knowledge or wisdom, however, as part of the Noble Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.) to deliverance, is insight (vipassanaa, q.v.), i.e. that intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the realization of Nibbaana (s. ariyapuggala), and which consists in the penetration of the impermanency (anicca, q.v.), misery (dukkha, s. sacca) and impersonality (anattaa) of all forms of existence. ------- > N: There are different levels of indriya-sa.mvara. siila. DC: This is not clear to me. There is only one Indriya-Sila to my knowledge. > N: The highest way of indriya- sa.mvara.siila is through vipassana. DC: To my knowledge vipassana comes much later. >N: Let me give an example. Before we heard the Dhamma we were all the time thinking of persons, and when we were scolded we thought of the voice of another person we found so unpleasant. We thought that someone else was to blame for this unpleasant experience. Thus, we lived in the world of thinking, of thinking of myself, of another person. Now we have learnt about the world of dhammas, realities that arise because of conditions, that are beyond control and anatta. DC: Is this feasible for a puthujjana by hearing dhamma. My recollection is that only an ariya who is an anagami is capable of this. Those who are below the level of an anagamin has kaamacchanda and vyaapaada. So it should arise. If the position you are taking is right then we all should be able not to react to an adverse comment, since we all have heard that Dhamma. >N: We read ... 'This painul feeling born of ear-contact has arisen in me. DC: the language used here is 'I' 'me' etc., and not dhammaas. That is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact'. Then he sees that contact is impermanent, that feeling is impermanent, that perception (sa~n~naa) is impermanent, and that consciousness is impermanent. And his mind enters on that very object (taking it just as an impersonal) element, and acquires confidence, steadiness and decision (herein).> There are naamas and ruupas appearing all the time. When sound appears sound can be known as a kind of ruupa not belonging to anybody, no matter how unpleasant or how alluring it is. Sound is experienced by hearing. When visible object or colour appears it can be realized as a kind of ruupa. It is experienced by the citta that is seeing. Seeing and hearing have each a totally different field, a different object, different conditions. They have nothing to do with each other. Thinking on account of what is seen or heard is another reality, [DC: Are there many realities?] and thinking is done either with kusala citta or with akusala citta, but mostly with akusala citta. [DC: Thinking is citta I thought] Seeing, hearing, t----------- -------- N: Yes, sammaadi.t.thi is foremost. There are many levels of it. DC: Nina, you talk about many levels of sammaditthi. If you mean the sammaadi.t.this of the puthujjana and ariya, then yes. But then they are different points of the path. N: It has to begin as correct intellectual understanding of what the Path factors are and how they are developed: through awareness and understanding of any reality that appears, even if it is akusala. DC: I have a problem here. How do you intellectually understand something like sammaa samaadhi? Traditionally we become Buddhist by saying "Buddha.m sarana.m ...Dhamma.m Sangha.m..." three times. >N: If there is no confidence in the Dhamma the Path will not be developed. DC: confidence is belief. Teachings of the Buddha does not require belief. That is what is whole dhamma is about. Belief, faith are the hallmark of all the other religions in the world. And faith is not a part of the Gautama Buddha's teaching. Here is some information I have found out: By the way, there are three kinds of saddhaa: amuulikaa saddhaa, saddhaa, and aakaaravati saddhaa. In the suttas, the sense in which saddhaa is used need to be inferred from the context. When we sincerely wish people, we say: "May the Triple Gem Bless you." . While thanking you for the interest you have taken in this discussion, may I end, May the Triple Gem Bless you, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76556 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Hi Tep ( James , Robert A.) , you wrote: 'However, to be appointed as a "DSG police" isn't bad -- it might be fun handcuffing guilty people. ;-)) let me suggest a special task: to request members , who speak with disrespect, degrading wellknown dhamma teachers , to prove their point or otherwise 'handcuffing them' by reason of wrong speech. What do you think ? ;-) with Metta Dieter #76557 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 kenhowardau Hi Deiter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Tep ( James , Robert A.) , > > you wrote: > > 'However, to be appointed as a "DSG police" isn't bad -- it might be fun handcuffing > guilty people. ;-)) > > > let me suggest a special task: to request members , who speak with disrespect, degrading wellknown dhamma teachers , to prove their point or otherwise 'handcuffing them' by reason of wrong speech. What do you think ? ;-) > Ah, if only this were possible! Anyone who slandered the Buddha could be bound and gagged and locked away where they couldn't do any harm. :-) And how does a person slander the Buddha? By saying his teaching was banal, commonplace and easy to understand. By saying that anatta was not meant to be taken seriously. The list goes on. Ken H #76558 From: "colette" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:08 am Subject: Stop the presses ksheri3 Good Morning Scott, Ken, Hold it right there! > K: "Yes, we agree that thoughts (concepts) do not really exist. > Thinking, however, is a function of various namas that do exist. > Therefore, thinking is real." > > Scott: Yeah, by conditions there is thinking arising again and again colette: WHAT? lets bring out our ole friend Vasubandhu and his view of Wet Dreams. Well, since a person is sleeping and not interacting with this so-called reality, Why the heck did this sleeping beauty pee, urinate, all over themselves? If this concept called "thoughts" is not real then how can these false concepts ACTUALLY CAUSE a person's body to act/react in a predictable way? If the thoughts are not real then how can thinking be real? What's the original post # Ken used to make the statement so that I can go back and follow up on the reply that Scott gave? thanks toodles, colette #76559 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi Dieter, Kenh, and James - The "handcuffing problem" is getting more complicated ! > > Dieter: > > Hi Tep ( James , Robert A.) , > > > > you wrote: > > > > 'However, to be appointed as a "DSG police" isn't bad -- it might > be fun handcuffing guilty people. ;-)) > > > > let me suggest a special task: to request members , who speak > with disrespect, degrading wellknown dhamma teachers , to prove > their point or otherwise 'handcuffing them' by reason of wrong > speech. What do you think ? ;-) > > > KenH: > Ah, if only this were possible! Anyone who slandered the Buddha could be bound and gagged and locked away where they couldn't do any harm. :-) > > And how does a person slander the Buddha? By saying his teaching was banal, commonplace and easy to understand. By saying that anatta was not meant to be taken seriously. The list goes on. > Members who disrespect and degrade well-known dhamma teachers are everywhere, Dieter. I think we are outnumbered. Help! Ken, does the not-taking-anatta-seriously include proclaiming that the whole world is empty of people and the Gotama Buddha is just a "concept"? Tep === #76560 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:40 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi James, - I like it when you are friendly. >James: > I just joked with you so that you wouldn't be so serious with your > questions. Glad that you joked back! :-) What is a kali-yuga? > T: In message #76453 Han Tun defines 'kali-yuga' as follows. Han: In Burma we are told of four ages of earth. Some believe, some do not believe. (1) krata-yuga, when there are all good people on earth. (2) tretaa-yuga, when there are 3 good people to 1 evil people. (3) dvaaparaa-yuga, when there are 2 good people to 2 evil people. (4) kali-yuga, when there are 1 good people to 3 evil people. They say that we are now in kali-yuga. As there are more evil people on earth, it is the age of vice, misery and bad luck. ................ T: It must be tough to be in the kali-yuga !! Goodness will not be appreciated and probably there is a fight every five minutes. Will good people survive ? It does not seem possible. Tep === #76561 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:59 pm Subject: Re: Siila indriyabala Dear Nina (and Han), - Your answer is always complete with definitions and details. The key points of your reply for questions 1 & 2 are : -- Tanha is lobha cetasika, and cetasikas never arise alone, they accompany citta. Citta and its accompanying cetasikas arise together, at the same base, they share the same object and they fall away together. -- When citta is vipaaka also the accompanying cetasikas are vipaaka, produced by kamma. Cetasikas do not have separate conditions. I like your kind answer to the third question, making appropriate use of 'individual' and 'beings'. > T:(3) How is trouble or suffering made from "one's own defilements"? -------- N: The expression one's own means: in the stream of cittas of this individual, different from another individual. The expression individual is conventional language, but this is necessary to denote different streams of consciousness. Defilements are accumulated from citta to citta, from life to life and these condition the arising of akusala citta. Akusala citta causes trouble in life. There is also the receiving of unpleasant vipaaka through the senses and this is caused by accumulated kamma. Here the Buddha also used conventional language to express the truth: kamma is one's own, beings are heirs to deeds. ........... T: Thank you very much. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep (and Han), > I think Han explained very well the cause of dukkha. I can add > something to your questions. #76562 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:42 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Jon, - I am glad you are back. Jon: Now that I'm back in the 'real world', I'd like to withdraw my previous remark about the sutta dealing with the question of whether the Tathaagata can be said to exist or not. T: It is fine with me that we drop the existence question. But how can you be so sure that you are back to the real world? The ultimate world of the ariyans is separated with no real boundary from the imaginary world of concepts (including "humans"). .......... Jon: See for example SN 22:85 quoted by Sarah recently (post #76173), where Sariputta summarises the understanding of Yamaka, who correctly understood the 5 khandhas, as: "the Tathaagata is not apprehended by you as real and actual in this very life". In other words, and enlightened being does not take people as being "real and actual". T: While you were away Sarah's post and SN 22.85 were discussed along with other posts by Nina, Scott, KenH, Han, James, Tep, etc. You are right that the Buddha and the Arahants see the dhammas (khandhas, dhatus, ..) with 'yathabhuta-dassana' with no self views(attanuditthi and mana). ........... Jon: The existence of the Tathaagatha as a historical fact is not in question. Existence in the ultimate sense is the issue. T: Historical fact in the imaginary world of concepts-- is that what you mean ? However, everyone agrees that there are only ultimate realities in the ultimate world of dhammas. But the existence issue had been "dragged on" for too long while you were not around. But there is no agreement yet. People are tough ! Tep === #76563 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Siila indriyabala Dear Han, - I am pleased with your best effort to answer my three questions. > Han: > > There are eight lobha-mula cittas which are akusala > cittas: > (1) Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam > asankharikam ekam > (One consciousness, accompanied by joy, associated > with wrong view, unprompted) > (2) Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam > sasankharikam ekam > (One consciousness, accompanied by joy, associated > with wrong view, prompted) > (3) Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-vippayuttam > asankharikam ekam > (One consciousness, accompanied by joy, dissociated > from wrong view, unprompted) > (4) Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-vippayuttam > sasankharikam ekam > (One consciousness, accompanied by joy, dissociated > from wrong view, prompted) > (5) Upekkha-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam > asankharikam ekam > (consciousness, accompanied by indifference, > associated with wrong view, unprompted) > (6) Upekkha-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam > sasankharikam ekam > (consciousness, accompanied by indifference, > associated with wrong view, prompted) > (7) Upekkha-sahagatam ditthigata-vippayuttam > asankharikam ekam > (consciousness, accompanied by indifference, > dissociated from wrong view, unprompted) > (8) Upekkha-sahagatam ditthigata-vippayuttam > sasankharikam ekam > (consciousness, accompanied by indifference, > dissociated from wrong view, prompted) > > And the underlying lobha cetasika belongs to lobha-tri > cetasikas, which belong to 14 akusala cetasikas. > Lobha-tri cetasikas are: > (i) lobha > (ii) ditthi > (iii) maana > -------------------- > Han: > Citta is one entity and cetasika is another, but they > arise together. > > A cetasika has the following four characteristics: > (i) It arises together with citta. > (ii) It perishes together with citta. > (iii) It takes the same object which citta takes. > (iv) It shares a common physical base (vatthu) with > citta. > -------------------- > Han: I said: "(3) Sufferings are caused by one's own > defilements," which is self-explanatory. > But to make it more clear, I would like to refer to > the Four Noble Truths. > The sufferings (dukkha sacca) is caused by tanha, a > defilement (samudaya sacca). > -------------------- > Dear friend Tep, I know you have reasons to ask your > innocent-but-formal questions. > You never ask silly questions. > I have answered to the best of my ability. > I will be grateful to know your answers to your own > questions. ........ T: I will pass, because I do not think I can do a better job than what you and Nina have done. Tep === #76564 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:50 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (67) nichiconn Dear Friends, Continuing with our reading taken from: *CAF Rhys Davids: Psalms of the Sisters, with the Chronicle from the Commentary by Dhammapaala entitled 'The Elucidation of the Highest Meaning'. PTS 1909 @ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html *Wm Pruitt: The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis: Theriigaathaa-A.t.thakathaa, Paramatthadiipanii VI by Aacariya Dhammapaala. PTS 1999 *txt/cy: vri (tipitaka.org) we come to the second story in the section of (approximately) twenty verses: 2. Rohiniitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 2. The commentary on the verses of Theri Rohinii part 1 of 12 txt: Sama.naati bhoti supiiti-aadikaa rohiniyaa theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii ito ekanavutikappe vipassissa bhagavato kaale kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa, ekadivasa.m bandhumatiinagare bhagavanta.m pi.n.daaya caranta.m disvaa patta.m gahetvaa puuvassa puuretvaa bhagavato datvaa piitisomanassajaataa pa~ncapati.t.thitena vandi. Saa tena pu~n~nakammena devamanussesu sa.msarantii anukkamena upacitavimokkhasambhaaraa hutvaa Pruitt: The verses beginning Lady, you fell asleep [saying], "Ascetics" are Therii Rohinii's. She too performed meritorious deed under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. Ninety-one aeons ago she was born in the home of a [good] family at the time of the Blessed One Vipassii. One day after she came of age, she saw the Blessed One going on his alms rounds in the town of Bandhumatii. She took his bowl, filled it with cake, and gave it to the Blessed One. Joy and gladness arose [in her], and she paid homage with the fivefold prostration. Because of that meritorious deed, she wandered on among devas and men, and in due course, she accumulated the requisites for liberation. RD: She, too, having made her resolve under former Buddhas, and heaping up good of age-enduring efficacy in this and that rebirth, was born, ninety-one aeons ago, in the time of Vipassi Buddha, in a clansman's family. One day she saw the Exalted One seeking alms in the city of Bandhumatii, and filling his bowl with sweet cakes, she worshipped low at his feet in joy and gladness. And when, after many rebirths in heaven and on earth in consequence thereof, she had accumulated the conditions requisite for emancipation, txt: imasmi.m buddhuppaade vesaaliya.m mahaavibhavassa braahma.nassa gehe nibbattitvaa rohiniiti laddhanaamaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa, satthari vesaaliya.m viharante vihaara.m gantavaa dhamma.m sutvaa sotaapannaa hutvaa maataapituuna.m dhamma.m desetvaa saasane pasaada.m uppaadetvaa te anujaanaapetvaa saya.m pabbajitvaa vipassanaaya kamma.m karontii na cirasseva saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. RD: she was, in this Buddha-era, reborn at Vesaalii, in the house of a very prosperous brahmin, and named Rohi.nii. *345 Come to years of discretion, she went, while the Master was staying at Vesaalii, to the Vihaara, and heard the doctrine. She became a 'Stream-entrant,' and teaching her parents the doctrine, and they accepting it, she gained their leave to enter the Order. Studying for insight, she not long after attained Arahantship, together with thorough grasp of the Norm in form and meaning. *345 I.e., Latinized, Flavia. Childers instances a red cow so called, and a constellation. PRUITT: In this Buddha era, she was born in the home of a very rich brahman in Vesaalii. She received the name Rohinii. After coming of age, when the Teacher was living in Vesaalii, she went to his monastery, heard the Doctrine, and became a Stream-Winner. She taught the Doctrine to her mother and father and caused faith to arise in them. She obtained their permission and went forth. She devoted herself to the gaining of insight, and in a very short time she attained the state of Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. ===enjoy, connie #76565 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:11 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Han: In Burma we are told of four ages of earth. Some believe, some > do not believe. > > (1) krata-yuga, when there are all good people on earth. > (2) tretaa-yuga, when there are 3 good people to 1 evil people. > (3) dvaaparaa-yuga, when there are 2 good people to 2 evil people. > (4) kali-yuga, when there are 1 good people to 3 evil people. > > They say that we are now in kali-yuga. As there are more evil people > on earth, it is the age of vice, misery and bad luck. > ................ > > T: It must be tough to be in the kali-yuga !! Goodness will not be > appreciated and probably there is a fight every five minutes. Will > good people survive ? It does not seem possible. This is hard to say- we are all good and all evil at different times. I don't think it is beneficial to generalize about the whole population in such a way. It encourages pessimism and discourages the radiation of the Brahma-viharas (but I'm not saying categorically it isn't true ;-)). Metta, James #76566 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 hantun1 Dear James and Tep, My introduction of Kali-yuga is not that I believe in it seriously. There is also another prophesy. It is said that the Buddha saasanaa will last only 5000 years, and the decline will start at the mid-point. We have now passed the mid-point by 50 years. My purpose of telling all these is to pay more attention to siila by individuals and by the general population. What I fear is if people do not observe siila (not only Buddhists, but also other religions according to their own moral teachings) there may be kamma vipaaka in the form of more crime, violence and stressful situations, which in turn will make difficult for people to observe their moral virtues. It will then be like a vicious circle. It is not to encourage pessimism but to develop more siila or moral virtues for all peoples. Respectfully, Han --- buddhatrue wrote: > I don't think it is beneficial to generalize about > the whole > population in such a way. It encourages pessimism > and discourages the > radiation of the Brahma-viharas (but I'm not saying > categorically it > isn't true ;-)). > > Metta, > James #76567 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:29 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (17) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 10: The Perfection of Equanimity, taken from the book “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ We read about equanimity: “And equanimity is their opposite by dispelling attraction and repulsion towards desirable and undesirable objects, respectively, and by proceeding evenly under varying circumstances.” Equanimity is the opposite of attachment, aversion and ignorance. We should investigate the characteristics of all ten perfections and see their benefit : they are opposed to akusala dhammas. Realities are non-self, they are beyond control. Cittas arise and fall away all the time in succession, and this causes people’s lives to be different: they have accumulated different kammas which produce their results accordingly and they also have different inclinations which condition their varied ways of thinking. We read in the Commentary to the “Kindred Sayings” (II, Ch XII, 6, Tree Suttas, § 60, The base, Nidåna Sutta) that the Dhamma taught by the Buddha for the benefit of all beings can be compared to a thousand goods which are laid down on the door-step of each house for the benefit of the family. Some people may open the door and receive all those goods that are piled up on their door-step whereas others do not even open their door. Ignorance is the condition for not seeing the benefit of the Dhamma, whereas paññå is the condition for realizing its benefit. Each moment of listening to the Dhamma is beneficial. There may not always be an opportunity to apply the Dhamma, but when we have listened to it, there are conditions for kusala dhammas to develop and akusala dhammas gradually to decrease. We should have appreciation for someone who explains the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha. As we have seen, the Buddha’s teaching can be compared to the laying down of a thousand goods before each house-door. ------------------------------ To be continued. Metta, Han #76568 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:00 pm Subject: Re: Stop the presses scottduncan2 Good Morning colette, Thanks for the reply: colette: "WHAT? lets bring out our ole friend Vasubandhu and his view of Wet Dreams. Well, since a person is sleeping and not interacting with this so-called reality, Why the heck did this sleeping beauty pee, urinate, all over themselves?" Scott: I don't have a clue what Vasubandhu wrote regarding wet dreams. However, this is an interesting point. Technically, nocturnal emissions are semen, not urine. c: "If this concept called "thoughts" is not real then how can these false concepts ACTUALLY CAUSE a person's body to act/react in a predictable way? If the thoughts are not real then how can thinking be real?" Scott: In this case I think we are dealing with ruupa which is experienced through the body-sense and subsequently in the mind-door, as usual. Thinking is real. Thoughts, in this sense, the object of thinking, although concepts, can be (I think) object condition. Concepts are not ultimate realities. The following is totally speculative; I don't know a thing about this: I'd say that just in the same way that sound can be condition for dream-thoughts, say, a dream the story of which includes the sound, so too can the bodily sensations related to the ejaculation of semen during sleep - in this case a dream with an erotic content. Both sound and bodily sensation are ruupa. Cittas at the ear-door and the body-door respectively take these ruuupa as object. The cittas and cetasikas which experience these objects in the mind-door can be condition for concepts and thinking. Ruupa experienced by citta condition thoughts. Not the other way round. Don't buy a word of this. I'm totally speculating. Ken's post was Message #76514. Sincerely, Scott. #76569 From: Eve Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. eviebgreen Dear Nina, I think that I am on the right path I just need to keep an open mind and have patience. What I need to practice every day is to calm my racing mind by meditation. I know what I need to do, it will just time time to achieve my goal. Take care and have a peaceful day. -Evelyn --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: <...> > N: It will take aeons. But the right cause will > bring the right > result. So, from the beginning a cause has to be > cultivated little by > little. What do you think? How to begin? > Have a peaceful Thursday, > Nina. #76570 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:09 pm Subject: The Householder Nakula * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! <....> Taken from mettanet.org1 Translated from Pali by Sister Upalavanna SUMMARY: The householder Nakula's wife advices and re-assures Nakula so that he would not die with desires and worries in relation to what would happen to her and the family following his death. COMMENTARY: It is interesting to note from this sutta that the custom of wearing of white clothing by lay people, goes back to the time of the Lord Buddha. THE HOUSEHOLDER NAKULA Anguttara Nikâya 002.06 - Nakulapitusutta2 002.06. At one time The Blessed One was living in the deer park in the Bhesakala forest among the Sumsumara peaks. At that time the householder Nakula was gravely ill. Then the householder's wife told him thus: Householder, do not die with wishes Death is unpleasant to one with wishes. The Blessed One has blamed, death with wishes. Householder, it might occur to you; It would not be possible for my wife to feed the children and bear the household expenses after my demise. Householder, am clever at making thread out of cotton and weaving bamboo baskets. After your demise I will feed the children and meet the household expenses. Therefore, householder do not die with wishes. Death is unpleasant to one with wishes. The Blessed One has blamed death with wishes. Householder, it might occur to you: After my demise, my wife will go with another man. You should not think in that manner. You know and I too, how we have observed household chastity since our sixteenth year. Therefore, householder do not die with wishes. Death is unpleasant to one with wishes. The Blessed One has blamed death with wishes. Householder, it might occur to you, after my demise my wife will not desire to see The Blessed One and the Community of bhikkhus. Householder, you should not think in that way. I will go to see The Blessed One and the Community of bhikkhus more often, after your demise. Therefore, householder do not die with wishes. Death is unpleasant to one with wishes. The Blessed One has blamed death with wishes. Householder, it might occur to you, after my demise my wife will not be complete in her virtues. It should not be thought in that manner. Among the female lay disciples who wear white clothes, am one. If you have any doubts about that, there is The Blessed One, worthy and rightfully enlightened in the deer park in the Bhesakala forest among the Sumsumara peaks. You should approach and dispel doubts. Therefore, householder do not die with wishes. Death is unpleasant to one with wishes. The Blessed One has blamed death with wishes. Householder, it might occur to you, my wife is not a gainer of internal appeasement. Householder it should not be thought in that manner. Among the female lay disciples who wear white clothes, am one who has gained internal appeasement. If you have any doubts about that, there is The Blessed One, worthy and rightfully enlightened in the deer park in the Bhesakala forest among the Sumsumara peaks. You should approach and dispel doubts. Therefore, householder do not die with wishes. Death is unpleasant to one with wishes. The Blessed One has blamed death with wishes. Householder, it might occur to you, my wife has not fathomed the depths of this dispensation and Teaching. She is not confident of it, has not dispelled doubts, abides seeking another Teacher. Householder it should not be thought in that manner. Among the female lay disciples who wear white clothes, am one, who has fathomed the depths of the dispensation and the Teaching, am confident and have dispelled doubts. I do not seek another Teacher. If you have any doubts about that, there is The Blessed One, worthy and rightfully enlightened in the deer park in the Bhesakala forest among the Sumsumara peaks. You should approach and dispel doubts. Therefore, householder do not die with wishes. Death is unpleasant to one with wishes. The Blessed One has blamed death with wishes. The householder Nakula thus advised by his wife overcame that illness and got better momentarily. Then the householder Nakula soon after that illness subsided with the help of a walking stick approached The Blessed One. He worshipped The Blessed One and sat on a side, then The Blessed One said to him: Householder, it is great gain for you that your wife advised you, out of compassion, wishing your welfare. Among the female lay disciples who wear white clothes, she is one, who is complete in virtues, has the gain of internal appeasement, has fathomed the depths of the dispensation and the Teaching, is confident, has dispelled doubts, she does not seek another Teacher. Householder, it is great gain for you that your wife advised you, out of compassion, wishing your welfare. Notes 1. More suttas from mettanet.org can be found here http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html 2. This sutta can be found here http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara4/6-ch\ akkanipata/002-saraniyavaggo-e.html (case-sensitive web address) <...> POEMS XVII See previous installment here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhamma/message/1274 DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY When others cause hurt, is it something, to be taken personally, or the expression, of a weakness? OBJECTIVES The object of a woman is a man,[1] the object of a warrior is victory, the object of a ruler is greater power, the object of monk is complete and utter -- unbinding.[2] [1] "A woman's goal is a man, her ambition is for adornment, her resolve is for a child, her desire is to be without a rival, her fulfillment is authority" (Anguttara Nikaya iii 363). [2] Nibbana. JUST SEE PEOPLE Just see people, with strengths, weaknesses, and shades, in between. Don't see Aussies, Turks, Jamaicans or Lankans, -- just see people. As a non-discriminating mind, is a great blessing, to have. JUNK Movies, television, comics and games, most only have mindless violence, horror, blood and gore, or some sexual theme. They reflect, the dark minds, that thought them up; minds caught up, in lust, hatred, and most of all, -- delusion How much demerit, do they gather, by creating such junk, for all to watch? They are always the same, tired old themes; recycled ideas, re-hashes of past, similar junk. How could there be, any originality in the minds of the creators? Those minds are clouded, by dark clouds of delusion. So why not create something, actually worth watching, something pacifying, which doesn't disturb, the peace of the mind? INVISIBLE EVIL What are these evil things? Behold! They are cancers of the mind. Why could they not be seen before? The mind was shrouded, by dark clouds -- of delusion. NO MORE Stop applauding Mara, for past evils done. They are actions, worthy of censure, not applause. Only a fool, an evil friend, or yourself, the Evil One, would applaud such actions, with encouragement. So please stop, -- please; no more. THE ULTIMATE HAPPINESS This is the ultimate happiness! Happiness borne of renunciation, Happiness borne of harmlessness, Happiness borne of seclusion, Happiness borne of concentration, happiness borne of contemplation. But even this 'higher' happiness, is impermanent,[1] subject to change, giving rise to stress, and therefore, cannot be considered, -- as mine.[2] [1] See the drawbacks of feelings here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.013.than.html#drawback-feeling [2] All existence is characterised by impermanence (anicca), as therefore causing suffering (dukkha) and as therefore without self (anatta), see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#tilakkhana <....> #76571 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:31 pm Subject: By Chance! bhikkhu0 Friends: Precious yet quite often wasted is this Dhamma Opportunity! The Blessed Gotama Buddha once explained: Bhikkhus & friends, imagine a single floating ring drifting in the great oceans! The Northern, Southern, Western and Eastern winds drive it here and there... Imagine also a blind turtle, which surfaces only once every hundred years... What do you think, Bhikkhus, would that blind turtle by chance often dive right up under this randomly drifting single ring & insert its neck in the hole? If it ever would at all, Sir, it would only happen by an exceedingly rare chance! Similarly, Bhikkhus it is by an exceedingly rare chance that one becomes human; it is by an extraordinarily rare chance that a Well-Come-&-Gone-One, an Arahat, a Perfectly Self-Enlightened Buddha arises in this world; and it is thus also by an exceptionally rare chance that the Dhamma and Discipline explained by this Tathagata shines forth in this world and saves it from Barbarism. Bhikkhus: You have now gained that precious & rare human state, a Tathagata, an Arahat, a Perfectly Self-Enlightened Buddha has arisen in the world, & the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by the Tathagata shines out in this world... Therefore, Bhikkhus & friends, an exertion should be made Now to understand: All T his is Suffering; This Greedy Craving is the sole Cause of all Suffering; No Craving is the End of Suffering; The Noble 8-fold Way Ends all Suffering, Therefore should effort to fathom these 4 Noble Truths be made NOW! Comment: It is now or never. May a sense of urgency save many from the ruin of neglect! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta NikÄ?ya. [V:456-7] section 56: Saccasamyutta. Thread 48: The Ring and Blind Turtle 2 ... Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <...> #76572 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila sarahprocter... Dear Han (Nina & all), --- han tun wrote: > Dear Nina, > > It is good that you had not heard of kali-yuga before, > and that you are optimistic. > > In Burma we are told of four ages of earth. > Some believe, some do not believe. > > (1) krata-yuga, when there are all good people on > earth. > (2) tretaa-yuga, when there are 3 good people to 1 > evil people. > (3) dvaaparaa-yuga, when there are 2 good people to 2 > evil people. > (4) kali-yuga, when there are 1 good people to 3 evil > people. > .... S: I just checked more on these here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga Mostly it refers to Hindu teachings, but the same ideas can be found in the Agga~n~na Sutta, DN 27 I liked Nina's answer referring back to one's defilements and horrors throughout the history we know of - not just recent years. We may think of particular atrocities and hardships in particular countries now (such as Myanmar, Zimbabwe or parts of the Middle East) as being bad collective kamma-vipaka (as briefly referred to off-list), but I don't think it's so simple. Even amongst such hardships, some have good vipaka, others don't have. After all, vipaka refers to momentary experiences through the senses. A rich, over-fed leader may have worse vipaka than a poor, hungry peasant, for example. And then, of course, while we tend to think that the most important thing in life is having comfort and good health, we tend to forget that having heard the Buddha's teachings and developing dana, sila and bhavana is actually more precious in the long-run (or even short-run). I know it's hard to say this to someone who is suffering and hungry or sick, but it's also hard to say it to someone who is comfortable and well-fed. The teachings are not easy and we're being tested all the time in different circumstances by the 8 worldly conditions. Maybe, worth discussing further? I'd be glad to hear any of your reflections. I understand if you'd prefer to let this topic drop. Metta, Sarah ========= #76573 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, Thx for sharing the extract from K.Sujin's Thai session: 2nd part: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > The Tipi.taka deals with characteristics of dhamma which can be > gradually understood. When we listen to the Dhamma there is another > world, the world of dhammas. Before we listened there was the world > of ‘us’, of self, from the moment we were getting up until going to > sleep. when we listen to the Dhamma we learn that what we used to > take for self is merely dhamma with its own charactreistic. .... S: Yes, this is what she repeats so well. Gradually we get used to the world of dhammas and find there's no other! .... > > Everybody sees, there is nothing special about it. But we learn that > there must be conditions for the arisibng of seeing. There are other > naamas and ruupas that are indispensable conditions for the arising > of seeing. The ruupa that is visible object impinges on the ruupa > that is eyesense, there is an association between visible object and > eyesense. Phassa (contact), which is naama, also ‘meets’ the object > otherwise seeing cannot experience it. .... S: As she always says, the meeting of the ayatanas is like a miracle which involves so many complex conditions! .... > When we read suttas we may not understand that there is no self. But > when we understand what paramatthas are, when we have understanding > of the Abhidhamma, we know that realities are not ‘me’, that they are > anattaa, we know that they do not belong to anybody and are beyond > control. > > The arising of seeing and hearing do not depend on our will or wish. > It is not possible that seeing arises whenever one wishes. The blind > cannot see, even though they want to. The deaf cannot hear, even > though they want to. Dhammas are anattaa, they need the appropriate > conditions so that they can arise. .... S: And so it's only through the real understanding of paramattha dhammas now at this moment that anatta can really be appreciated. Otherwise, it's always 'self' and an idea of control. Thanks again, Nina, Metta, Sarah p.s you mentioned that Lodewijk was planning to respond to one or two posts - always good to hear his comments if he still feels inclined to do so! ========== #76574 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Sarah, I would like to repeat my message to James and Tep, which I sent under the topic of An Introduction to Buddhism. -------------------- “My introduction of Kali-yuga is not that I believe in it seriously. There is also another prophesy. It is said that the Buddha saasanaa will last only 5000 years, and the decline will start at the mid-point. We have now passed the mid-point by 50 years. My purpose of telling all these is to pay more attention to siila by individuals and by the general population. What I fear is if people do not observe siila (not only Buddhists, but also other religions according to their own moral teachings) there may be kamma vipaaka in the form of more crime, violence and stressful situations, which in turn will make difficult for people to observe their moral virtues. It will then be like a vicious circle. It is not to encourage pessimism but to develop more siila or moral virtues for all peoples.” -------------------- My response to your current post will be nothing more or nothing less than what I had written to James and Tep. Respectfully, Han #76575 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 sukinderpal Hi Dieter, > let me suggest a special task: to request members , who speak with disrespect, degrading wellknown dhamma teachers , to prove their point or otherwise 'handcuffing them' by reason of wrong speech. What do you think ? ;-) :-) Are you saying that after Parinibbana there exist something by which one might recognize past Buddhas and Arahats? Is pointing out wrong view, `wrong speech'? What does "well known" have anything to do with being worthy of respect? Metta, Sukin #76576 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to Phil - Part 4 sukinderpal Dear Nina, > N: We do not understand much yet, I would say. > > S> Yes, but even that might have been said with `self', in reality > only `panna' can know. Layer after layer of self deception needs to be > seen through, and this can never happen without the help of all the > paramis being developed. Sukin: First of all, I hope you didn't take it that my above remark was referring to *your* statement. I wasn't referring to anything you said but to my own earlier statement about "panna knowing self-deception". I regarded that statement of mine as being only at the level of `thinking', a vague guess with no real understanding, certainly not at the level of satipatthana. ==================== > N: If you can tell more about these layers with examples I think it > can be helpful for many. Sukin: I don't know about `helpful', but I'll try to give a general comment. Firstly it is clear that all akusala being conditioned by moha can be said to "not know" reality. Of these however, Wrong View imo, is most dangerous, since not only does it `not know', but it in fact "misleads". So much so that when this follows any kusala, such as the act of "giving", `good' is not really being encouraged. In contrast, when any kusala is seen by panna as being a conditioned reality and not something that `self' does, the accumulation is quite different. Without the Buddha's teachings on conditionality, the greatest wisdom is one which accompanies the highest jhana cittas, and any development which leads to this should be highly praised. But in light of the Dhamma, even this is ultimately deceptive. Those who practice jhana rest satisfied thinking that the highest goal is being aimed at, little do they know about the tenacity of the kilesas. And there are the more earthy teachers, namely those of other religions. These men by virtue of their recognizing to a some extent the value in dana, sila, metta, karuna and other kusala, and the danger of their opposites, are considered "wise" by conventional standards. However, because they do not have a clue about the Four Noble Truths, are in fact *ignorant* worldlings. And there are others who might be considered as sincerely seeking the Truth, and who are willing to face their own faults and accept any limitations including the fact of any moral lack. But when it comes to the question of `ignorance' and faced with the fact of the 4NT, one will then see how far their sincerity in fact goes. Self-view will manifest and one kind of wrong view or the other will be propelling their thoughts. My own case, even though I have no problem accepting the 4NT and would even consider myself to have more confidence in the Triple Gem than most, still I can see much self-deception going on all the time, and this includes matter of views. Sincerity is there only in principle, but when it comes to facing the truth from moment to moment, I can see how little of this there really is. For this reason I appreciate the need to keep on listening to and considering the Dhamma, particularly as expressed by A. Sujin, you and some others here. We may think that we recognize the kusala/akusala intentions, and it may be so to some extent, but this is quickly followed by some form of attachment or another and therefore we may end up deceiving ourselves on way or another. We may think that we are getting somewhere with such kind of observation, and this could be an instance of tanha and self-view. This is one reason why I do not think too much about where I'm at in my development. I believe that once there is "self", be it by virtue of tanha, mana or ditthi, the "Cheating Dhammas" will have much room to take effect. As I wrote to Ken yesterday, deception happens even at the level of `study', how much more so when we think in terms of `practice'!? But of course there is as much akusala accumulated as everyone else, so there are times of being concerned about making progress. But this not only does not help, but also hinders, so I find myself being satisfied what little there is. On another level when I remarked to the effect that even my evaluation of Dhamma is likely done with `self' and therefore deceptive, I am saying that only panna of the level "wise consideration" can be said to actually "know". But yes, I do believe that patipatti must be preceded by pariyatti. And how do I determine if in fact this pariyatti is in accordance with the Buddha's teachings of the 4NT? Because it all points to the reality of the present moment. And who can argue with this!! ;-) Finally, I would like to bring up the notion of "Saccannana". I realize that this is referring to the 4NT, but the word sacca also reminds me of sincerity. Saccannana is the level of understanding which is firm about there being only the present reality to be known. I find this impossible to reach if there was not also sincerity being developed all along. Self- deception takes one away not only from the present moment, but also possibly to adopt a wrong path of practice. ============== > > S:Yesterday Ivan and I went to meet Knowing who hadn't appeared at > > the foundation for five weeks. We found him looking as he always did. > > However he said that his health has in fact grown worst. > -------- > N: Greetings to Knowing if you an contact him. Maybe he can now take > trips to Bgk when there are special meetings at the foundation. Sukin: I don't know, but he did not react positively to a similar suggestion Ivan and I made. I think he is really quite sick, more than we like to think. Metta, Sukin #76577 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:07 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Threefold Training , part 1. nilovg Hi James (and Swee Boon), I appreciate your quote and study of the Visuddhimagga. I see this text more as teaching different aspects and this becomes clearer when we look at the text before and the text after your quote. Let us see. Op 20-sep-2007, om 18:34 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > "The dispensation's goodness in the beginning is shown by Virtue. > Because of the passage 'And what is the beginning of profitable > things? Virtue that is quite purified' and because of the passage > beginning 'The not doing of any evil', Virtue is the beginning of the > dispensation. And that is good because it brings about the special > qualities of non-remorse, and so on. Its goodness in the middle is > shown by Concentration. Because of the passage beginning 'Entering > upon the profitable', Concentration is the middle of the dispensation. > And that is good because it brings about the special qualities of > supernormal-power, and so on. Its goodness in the end is shown by > Understanding. Because of the passage 'The purifying of One's own > mind- > -this is the Buddha's dispensation', and because understanding is its > culmination, Understanding is the end of the dispensation. And that is > good because it brings about equipoise with respect to the desired and > the undesired." > Vism ---------- N: Before your quote: 4: Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Threefold Training , part 2. nilovg Hi James (and Swee boon), continuation of the quotes: Vis.8: Herein there is nothing for him to do about the [native] understanding on account of which he is called wise; for that has been established in him simply by the influence of previous kamma. But the words ardent and sagacious mean that by persevering with energy of the kind here described and by acting in full awareness with understanding he should, acting in full awareness with understanding he should, having become well established in virtue, develop the serenity and insight that are described as Concentration and Understanding. This is how the Blessed One shows the path of purification under the headings of virtue, concentration and understanding there.... --------- Many aspects are given by way of threes: and the reference to S V, 143. Looking up the text: Note by B.B from Spk (p. 1917): The view is that of one's responsibil;ity for one's own action (kammassakataadi.t.thi), i.e., belief in kamma and its fruits, which implies as well belief in rebirth.> B.B.:< The Buddha's statement here establishes that right view (the first factor of the Noble Eightfold Path) and right conduct (factors 3-5) are the basis for the successful practice of mindfulness meditation. > How do you see siila in daily life? Not without understanding anything I would say. One has to realize one's cittas. Metta is the basis of siila, thus one has to know what true metta is. It is unselfish love, being concerned for others, not hurting them with sharp speech. Nina. > . > > #76579 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:18 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi James, Han, and Sarah - Thank you so much for the comments on kali-yuga and related issues. > T: It must be tough to be in the kali-yuga !! Goodness will not be > appreciated and probably there is a fight every five minutes. Will > good people survive ? It does not seem possible. James: This is hard to say- we are all good and all evil at different times. I don't think it is beneficial to generalize about the whole population in such a way. It encourages pessimism and discourages the radiation of the Brahma-viharas (but I'm not saying categorically it isn't true ;-)). T: Some people tend to generalize much more than others! But you are right about the element of truth in the definiton. To me I think it was designed (by a wise Buddhist monk, perhaps?) as a warning that laypeople should seek refuge in the Teachings asap. ............. Sarah: .. while we tend to think that the most important thing in life is having comfort and good health, we tend to forget that having heard the Buddha's teachings and developing dana, sila and bhavana is actually more precious in the long-run (or even short-run). The teachings are not easy and we're being tested all the time in different circumstances by the 8 worldly conditions. T: Sadhu, Sarh. Yes, the eight worldly conditions(loka-dhamma) overwhelm many people and me. But even when we do not have much dana, sila and bhavana, if we can adopt equanimity toward the 8 worldly conditions, then we will surely survive the kali-yuga (no matter when it may or may not come). ............ Han: My purpose of telling all these is to pay more attention to siila by individuals and by the general population. What I fear is if people do not observe siila (not only Buddhists, but also other religions according to their own moral teachings) there may be kamma vipaaka in the form of more crime, violence and stressful situations, which in turn will make difficult for people to observe their moral virtues. It will then be like a vicious circle. T: Your kind purpose is not misunderstood at all, Han, and I agree with you. Tep === #76580 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > What I fear is if people do not observe siila (not > only Buddhists, but also other religions according to > their own moral teachings) there may be kamma vipaaka > in the form of more crime, violence and stressful > situations, which in turn will make difficult for > people to observe their moral virtues. It will then be > like a vicious circle. .... S: What you are talking about is the vicious cycle of dependent origination, of samsara - vipaka vatta, kilesa vatta and kamma vatta. This is why an understanding of siila, an understanding of kamma and an understanding of vipaaka is so important. When we appreciate that the real difficulties in life are caused by the unwholesome accumulations rather than the situation, I think it helps a lot. ... > It is not to encourage pessimism but to develop more > siila or moral virtues for all peoples.” ..... S: This is very important and it is only through more and more understanding of the value of all kinds of moral virtues, so that they become firmer and firmer, no matter the difficult circumstances. Thx for repeating your helpful reflections, Han. Metta, Sarah ======== #76581 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 sarahprocter... Hi Sukin (& all), --- Sukinder wrote: >It is a great blessing that the Tipitaka has been handed down > to us, but many of these teachers I consider in fact, a curse to the > general Buddhist public. .... S: I was just thinking about this comment and I'm not sure we can really say that any teachers (or any wrong views held by others) are 'a curse to the general Buddhist public'. Isn't just our accumulated ignorance and wrong view that is the curse? Whilst there are still such latent tendencies, won't we always find misguided views that are appealing to latch onto? What do you think? Metta, Sarah ========= #76582 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unexamined embodiment:The rigors thereof sarahprocter... Hi Tom Z, Thx for sharing your poem. I'm sorry to hear about your cousin's husband and his difficulties before he died. We're fortunate to have the opportunity to be able to consider the Dhamma more now. Metta, Sarah --- tom wrote: > My cousin's husband died the other day > 64 > only sick a year > complicated case-lymphoma maybe > maybe, in part, crohn's disease > whatever it was it was mean > he hurt so long at last, > hurt so bad > they put him in a coma > just to handle him > it was sad #76583 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:39 am Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 4 sukinderpal Dear Nina, all, One correction in the below: > On another level when I remarked to the effect that even my evaluation > of Dhamma is likely done with `self' and therefore deceptive, I am > saying that only panna of the level "wise consideration" can be said to > actually "know". "wise consideration" was meant to be "wise attention". Sukin #76584 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 sukinderpal Hi Sarah, > >It is a great blessing that the Tipitaka has been handed down > > to us, but many of these teachers I consider in fact, a curse to the > > general Buddhist public. > .... > S: I was just thinking about this comment and I'm not sure we can really > say that any teachers (or any wrong views held by others) are 'a curse to > the general Buddhist public'. Isn't just our accumulated ignorance and > wrong view that is the curse? Whilst there are still such latent > tendencies, won't we always find misguided views that are appealing to > latch onto? Yes of course, and I was deliberately trying to dramatize the matter. But no excuse for this either and sure, it was "wrong speech". Sorry. :-) Metta, Sukin #76585 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:00 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 15, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, The factors of the wrong path perform each their own function while they condition citta, cetasikas and mind-produced rúpa by way of path- condition. While the factors of the wrong path condition the accompanying dhammas there can be wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. We can easily indulge in idle speech and this may not seem to be harmful. However, one kind of akusala can lead to other kinds of akusala by way of natural decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya paccaya, as we have seen. Any degree of akusala is dangerous. The study of the factors of the wrong path can remind us to realize when we are on the wrong path which leads downwards. Someone may take wrong effort for right effort and wrong concentration for right concentration. He may for example try very hard to focus on a particular object such as breath without right understanding of what breath is: a rúpa conditioned by citta. He may believe that he can develop calm with concentration on breath but he does not realize when there is desire for result instead of kusala citta with calm. Or someone may think that he should try to concentrate on rúpas of the body and that he in that way can experience the arising and falling away of realities. The development of the eigthfold Path is the development of right understanding of any reality which appears because of conditions. If someone selects particular realities as objects of awareness or if he tries to apply himself to certain techniques in order to hasten the development of insight he is on the wrong path. The factors of the right path are the following sobhana cetasikas: right view (sammå-ditthi) right thinking (sammå-sankappa) right speech (sammå-våcå) right action (sammå-kammanta) right livelihood (sammå-åjíva) right effort (sammå-våyåma) right mindfulness (sammå-sati) right concentration (sammå-samådhi) ********* Nina. #76586 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 sarahprocter... Hi Sukin, --- Sukinder wrote: >>Sarah: Isn't just our accumulated ignorance and > > wrong view that is the curse? Whilst there are still such latent > > tendencies, won't we always find misguided views that are appealing to > > latch onto? > >Sukin: Yes of course, and I was deliberately trying to dramatize the matter. > But no > excuse for this either and sure, it was "wrong speech". Sorry. :-) .... Sarah: Oh, no need to apologise - we're used to drama queens round here after all - I'm sure we're all drama queens from time-to-time:-) Since writing, I read you saying something more-or-less the same as my comment above in another post, so I know we agree on this. In any case, good to read all your posts. Metta, Sarah p.s Best wishes to our mutual friend Knowing from us too. ========= #76587 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:08 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 5, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, We read in Khun Santi’s lexicon about síla visuddhi: “Purity of síla is síla which has reached a high degree of purity. When satipatthåna arises and there is awareness and understanding of the true nature of a characteristic of nåma or rúpa which is appearing, the doorways of the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind are guarded. At that moment there is no committing of evil through body or speech, because the six faculties are guarded by sati, (indriya samvara síla [1]), there is restraint through the six doors. This is called purity of síla, síla visuddhi. It is purified and free from the wrong view of self because there is the understanding that there are only nåma or rúpa which are appearing.” Here we see again that for the development of síla satipatthåna is essential. So long as one is full of the idea of self one may try to force oneself to restrain from akusala and observe síla, but this is impossible when there are no conditions for citta and cetasika which observe síla. Nåma, not self, observes síla and satipatthåna is the right condition for purity of síla. Someone who does not develop right understanding may have wholesome speech or help others, but there is still the idea of self who does so and there cannot be purity of síla. Síla is one of the perfections the Bodhisatta fulfilled in order to attain Buddhahood. Síla is a perfection when its purpose is the eradication of defilements. Then it is a way of kusala leading out of the cycle of birth and death. So long as defilements have not been eradicated we have to continue in the cycle of birth and death, and this means dukkha. We read in Khun Santi’s lexicon about kusala which leads out of the cycle (vivatta gåmini kusala [2]): “Kusala which leads out of the cycle means each kind of kusala which has the purpose of eradication of defilements. No matter one offers one ladle of rice gruel or one helping of boiled rice, if one sees the disadvantage of akusala and one will apply oneself to the development of kusala with right understanding in order to eradicate defilements, it is a perfection, it is right practice, namely, kusala which leads out of the cycle of birth and death." We may want to observe síla because we cling to the idea of being a “good person”, of being esteemed by others, or because of other selfish motives, and in that case it is not the perfection of síla. The perfection of síla has detachment as its goal. ----------- 1. The five senses are classified as rúpas which are “indriyas”, leaders, they are leaders each in their own field. Citta is manindriya, mind-faculty, the leader in its own field: it cognizes an object. 2. vatta is cycle and vivatta means out of the cycle. Gåmini means going, leading. ******* Nina. #76588 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:11 am Subject: Visuddhimagga ch XVII, 193 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga ch XVII, 193 Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with the other factors besides kamma from which ruupas of the body originate. These are citta, temperature (the element of heat) and nutrition (ahaara). As we shall see, the rebirth-consciousness is too weak to produce ruupa. After it has fallen away it is succeeded by the bhavangacitta and this can produce ruupa. ------------- Text Vis. 193: In the course of an existence, in all places where materiality occurs there is manifested the temperature-originated bare [material] octad, which is due [initially] to the temperature that occurred together with the rebirth-linking consciousness at the moment of its presence. --------- Note 36 taken from the Tiika: 'This means, due to the heat element in the materiality that arose together with the rebirth-linking consciousness. N: At the first moment of life kamma produces vi~n~naa.na, the rebirth-consciousness, and also ruupa. As we have seen, depending on kamma that produces different births in different planes of existence, there are two, three or more decads of ruupa produced by kamma. A decad consists of the eight inseparable ruupas and in addition life-faculty and also the specific kind of ruupa produced by kamma, such as the heartbase or a sense-organ. The eight inseparable ruupas are: the four great Elements of solidity, cohesion, heat and motion, and in addition colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. The element of heat present in such a unit, after it has arisen, can produce other ruupas, namely a bare octad, that is a unit of the eight inseparable ruupas. Since ruupa is too weak to produce other ruupas at its arising moment, it does so after it has arisen. The element of heat in a unit that has arisen can produce a bare octad at the moment of presence of the rebirth-consciousness. As we have seen, each citta has a moment of arising, of presence and of falling away. --------- Text Vis.: Rebirth-linking consciousness does not originate materiality. For, just as a man who is falling into a chasm cannot support another, so it, too, is unable to originate materiality because of its weakness, which is due to the weakness of the physical basis. But from the first life-continuum after the rebirth-linking consciousness onwards, the bare octad originated by consciousness appears. ---------- N: The Tiika states: It is because the heart-basis is arisen only at that very moment, that there is weakness of the physical basis' (Pm. 622). The heart-base is the physical base for all cittas other than the sense-cognitions which have the relevant sense-bases as their physical base. The rebirth-consciousness has the heart-base as its physical base. In the planes of existence where there are naama and ruupa kamm produces at the first moment of life the rebirth- consciousness and the heart-base. --------- Text Vis.: And at the time when sound becomes manifest there is the sound ennead due both to temperature occurring after the moment of rebirth-linking and to consciousness. -------------------- N: The nonad or ennead of sound is a unit consisting of the eight inseparable ruupas and sound. Sound can be produced by temperature or by citta. --------- Conclusion: From the first moment of life on there are conditions for ruupas of the body. The Visuddhimagga uses a simile of a man who is falling into a chasm and cannot support another to show the weakness of the heartbase and rebirth-consciousness. It reminds us of the helplessness and sorrow connected with rebirth. The kamma that produces rebirth and also ignorance and craving which have not been abandoned ‘fling’ as it were the rebirth-consciousness on to the next location of rebirth (see Vis. 164). So long as ignorance and clinging have not been eradicated, kamma, even performed aeons ago, has the opportunity to produce rebirth. We cannot know which kamma will produce the next rebirth. Kusala kamma or akusala kamma of the past being pushed on by craving conditions rebirth. As we read in Vis. 162: There isn’t anybody who can create the ruupas of the body. These ruupas are produced by kamma, by citta, by temperature or by nutrition. We cannot say let the body be thus, or let it be thus. Because of ignorance we cling to the body, but the body does not belong to us. This is an illusion. ****** Nina. #76589 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:15 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (67) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato 2. Rohiniitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 2. The commentary on the verses of Theri Rohinii part 2 txt: Tena vutta.m- "Nagare bandhumatiyaa, vipassissa mahesino; pi.n.daaya vicarantassa, puuvedaasimaha.m tadaa. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; tattha citta.m pasaadetvaa, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Chatti.msadevaraajuuna.m mahesittamakaarayi.m; pa~n~naasacakkavattiina.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m. "Manasaa patthitaa naama, sabbaa mayha.m samijjhatha; sampatti.m anubhotvaana, devesu manujesu ca. "Pacchime bhavasampatte, jaato vippakule aha.m; rohinii naama naamena, ~naatakehi piyaayitaa. Pruitt: As it is said in the Apadaana:* *Not in the Apadaana as we have it. I gave a cake to the Great Sage Vipassii when he was wandering on his alms round in the town of Bachumatii. Because of that good deed and my resolve and purpose, my mind was gladdened there, and I went to the Taavati.msa realm. I ruled as the chief queen of thirty-six deva kings. I ruled as chief queen of fifty wheel-turning monarchs. Everything I desired in my mind prospered for me. I experienced prosperity among devas and men. In my last existence I was born in a brahman family. I was named Rohinii, and I was held dear by my relatives. "Bhikkhuuna.m santika.m gantvaa, dhamma.m sutvaa yathaatatha.m; sa.mviggamaanasaa hutvaa, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m. "Yoniso padahantiina.m, arahattamapaapu.ni.m; ekanavutito kappe, ya.m daanamadadi.m tadaa; duggati.m naabhijaanaami, puuvadaanassida.m phala.m. I went to the bhikkhuniss and heard the Doctrine. My mind was deeply stirred, and I went forth to the homeless state. Sriving properly, I attained Arahatship. In the ninety-one aeons since I gave that gift, I am not aware of [birth in] any realm of misery. This is the consequence of the cake. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. My depravities are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. ===to be continued, connie #76590 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. nilovg Dear Eve, Thanks for responding. Op 20-sep-2007, om 20:52 heeft Eve het volgende geschreven: > I think that I am on the right path I just need to > keep an open mind and have patience. What I need to > practice every day is to calm my racing mind by > meditation. > > I know what I need to do, it will just time time to > achieve my goal. ------- Then I have nothing more to add. If you like something explained, you are always welcome. With warmest wishes, Nina. #76591 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (16) sarahprocter... Dear Han & Tep, --- han tun wrote: > In Mahaasatipatthaana sutta, in cittaanupassanaa, the > Buddha said “saraagam vaa cittam saraagam cittanti > pajaanaati.” To know mind affected by lust as mind > affected by lust.” The Buddha did not say: “at this > very moment.” > ========= .... S: I was curious about this comment. As Nina said, I think it's clear that pajaanaati always refers to the knowledge with wisdom when such a citta appears. I liked your explanation to Tep about citta and cetasikas arising together: >Han: A cetasika has the following four characteristics: > (i) It arises together with citta. > (ii) It perishes together with citta. > (iii) It takes the same object which citta takes. > (iv) It shares a common physical base (vatthu) with > citta. ... S:In the Tiika (transl. by Soma Thera) in the same section above about >“saraagam vaa cittam saraagam cittanti pajaanaati.” To know mind affected by lust as mind affected by lust.”<, we read: "In the consciousness with lust, lust occurs as a mental concomitant arising and passing along with a conscious state and sharing with that conscious state the object and basis of consciousness. In this sense of a conscious state well-knit with lust one speaks of 'the consciousness with lust'." S: So at this very moment if such a citta (consciousness) 'appears' (i.e is the object of sati and pa~n~naa), it is known, wouldn't you both agree? Metta, Sarah ========= #76592 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views sarahprocter... Hi Ken E, --- Kenneth Elder wrote: > One more paradox, > it only by going within ourselves in meditation that > we find that there is no self. Peace, Ken Elder ... S: Can you elaborate on what you mean by this please? Metta, Sarah ========== #76593 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] There is no person, to DC. nilovg Dear DC, you touch on many points and for now I shall only select one. You remarks are very good. Op 20-sep-2007, om 18:54 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven: >> N: The pa~n~naa developed in vipassana >> greatly supports siila. When one thinks less of my siila, there are >> conditions for all kinds of siila, siila as varita and siila as >> carita, such as helping, paying respect. > > DC: In the above, in what sense are you using Pa~n~naa and vipassanaa? > > PTS Dictionary has a full article on pa~n~naa. Here are some of the > meanings given in the first line: intelligence, com- prising all > the higher faculties of cognition, "intellect as conversant with > general truths" (Dial. ii.68), reason, wisdom, insight, knowledge, > recognition. > > For vipassanaa: Vipassanâ (f.) [fr. vi+passati; BSk. vipaúyanâ, e. > g. Divy 44, 95, 264 etc.] inward vision, insight, intuition, > introspection. > > I also quote a portion of the article on pa~n~naa in Ven. > Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary [p.144]. > > PA~N~NAA: 'understanding, knowledge, wisdom, insight', comprises a > very wide field. The specific Buddhist knowledge or wisdom, > however, as part of the Noble Eightfold Path (magga, q.v.) to > deliverance, is insight (vipassanaa, q.v.), i.e. that intuitive > knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and the > realization of Nibbaana (s. ariyapuggala), and which consists in > the penetration of the impermanency (anicca, q.v.), misery (dukkha, > s. sacca) and impersonality (anattaa) of all forms of existence. ------- N: I refer to pa~n~naa developed in vipassana, or through satipatthana, in the sense of the development of understanding of the mental phenomena and physical phenomena that appear now in our life, naama and ruupa. Pa~n~naa does not know immediately the three general characteristics of aniccaa, dukkha and anattaa. First naama has to be realized as naama and ruupa as ruupa. We confuse naama and ruupa, we do not even know what seeing is: the experience of what is visible through the eyesense. We believe that we see people, but that is thinking on account of what is seen. This we understand in theory, but, the truth has to be directly known when nama and rupa appear one at a time. Dhammas appear one at a time through the six doorways. I speak of levels of pa~n~naa, because there is development. At the beginning understanding is intellectual, and then, when there can be awareness of one reality at a time, there can gradually be direct understanding of whatever appears. Pa~n~naa is weak in the beginning, but it develops more as stages of insight are reached, up to enlightenment. ****** Nina. #76594 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 15, no 3. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - There are a few things in the following that I would question. In a message dated 9/21/2007 9:01:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, The factors of the wrong path perform each their own function while they condition citta, cetasikas and mind-produced rúpa by way of path- condition. While the factors of the wrong path condition the accompanying dhammas there can be wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that there is one (perfectly) right path but an unlimited number of paths that are wrong in some respects or other. I think it is off the mark to speak of "the" wrong path. The "wrong paths" range from extremely destructive ones to ones quite helpful, but they are all "wrong" in the sense of being less than perfect. If nothing will ever suffice for the time being except the perfect path, we will never get to that perfect path. What is essential is to never be satisfied with the status quo, for such satisfaction is the end of progress. ----------------------------------------------------- We can easily indulge in idle speech and this may not seem to be harmful. However, one kind of akusala can lead to other kinds of akusala by way of natural decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya paccaya, as we have seen. Any degree of akusala is dangerous. The study of the factors of the wrong path can remind us to realize when we are on the wrong path which leads downwards. Someone may take wrong effort for right effort and wrong concentration for right concentration. He may for example try very hard to focus on a particular object such as breath without right understanding of what breath is: a rúpa conditioned by citta. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Seeing what the breath actually is is not an initial given, and without "looking" at the breath itself, it never will be given. As for the breath being a rupa, I believe that is incorrect. The breath is a complex of rupas known via conceptualization. When attention is turned towards that complex (vitakka) and remains with it (vicara), it is possible, with practice, to come to see through the breath concept to the multiplicity of rupas underlying it. ------------------------------------------------------ He may believe that he can develop calm with concentration on breath but he does not realize when there is desire for result instead of kusala citta with calm. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: One *can* develop calm by attending to the breath, and the Buddha taught that. I would avoid speaking of concentration, though, in this regard, because it suggests a degree intensity of focus that is not, in fact, conducive to calm. Meditation is a process of easy, peaceful attention, and calm but persistent monitoring of that attention. ------------------------------------------------------- Or someone may think that he should try to concentrate on rúpas of the body and that he in that way can experience the arising and falling away of realities. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Attending to bodily sensations was also taught by the Buddha, and it is very useful. A good reference in this regard is MN 119, the Kayagatasati Sutta. ------------------------------------------------------------- The development of the eigthfold Path is the development of right understanding of any reality which appears because of conditions. If someone selects particular realities as objects of awareness or if he tries to apply himself to certain techniques in order to hasten the development of insight he is on the wrong path. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha taught mindfulness of the body, and most especially of the breath. He did not only teach choiceless awareness without an initial anchor. ----------------------------------------------------------- The factors of the right path are the following sobhana cetasikas: right view (sammå-ditthi) right thinking (sammå-sankappa) right speech (sammå-våcå) right action (sammå-kammanta) right livelihood (sammå-åjíva) right effort (sammå-våyåma) right mindfulness (sammå-sati) right concentration (sammå-samådhi) ********* Nina. ================================= With metta, Howard #76595 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? sarahprocter... Hi Tep & all, Thank you for your helpful quotes and research in Nyantiloka's dictionary for 'puggala' and 'ariya-puggala' [#76295]. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: We all know that the 8 kinds of 'ariya puggala' are real persons who > represent the 8 stages of holiness; they are the noble disciples of the > Buddha, and they constitute one of the Triple Gem. As such, the > interpretation of 'puggala' as "mere names for certain combinations of > material and mental processes, and apart from them they have no real > existence" by Nyanatiloka is clearly wrong. ..... S: The following is from the introduction by Bimala Charan Law to his translation of the Puggala Pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma text. I think it's relevant: "The title consists of two words: puggala and pa~n~natti. The word 'puggala' means an individual or a person, as opposed to a multitude or class, a creature, a being, a man (Childer's Paali Dictionary). Buddhism distinguishes altogether twelve classes of intelligent beings or puggala -viz., four of the average ordinary class (puthujjanaa) and eight of the elect class (ariyaa). "According to the Buddhists, the individual has no real existence. The term 'puggala' does not mean anything real. It is only sammutisacca (apparent truth) as opposed to paramatthasacca (real truth). "Just as it is by the condition precedent of the co-existence of its various parts that the word 'chariot' is used, just so is it that when the khandhas are there, we talk of a 'being' " (The Questions of King Milinda, S.B.E., vol xxxv., p, 45, quoting Samyutta I, 135). "A Puggalavaadin's view is that the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact, but he is not known in the same way as other real and ultimate facts are known.['Points of Controversy, pp 8-9.] ....." "Pa~n~natti means 'notion,' 'designation,' etc. 'It means what the mind both conceives and renders articulate.' ['Expositor', vol ii, p.499, n.3] It is stated in the 'Compendium of Philosophy'[p.4] that Pa~n~natti is twofold according as it is known (pa~n~naapiyatiiti) or as it makes (things) known (pa~n~naapetiiti)....... " "In the highest sense we do not find these distinctions to exist, but nevertheless as modes of shadowing forth the meaning (of things), they become objects of thought-genesis (as our ideas). And the idea is referred to, derived from, or determined by, this or that (thing), and is called idea of thing because it is conceived and reckoned, named, currently expressed, or made known. The idea of thing is designated 'atthapa~n~natti' because it is made known (by term, word, or sign)," "[Compendium of Philosophy, i.e. 'Kathavatthu', p.199]. "...Hence, according to the commentarial tradition, puggalapa~n~natti means 'pointing out,' 'showing,' 'exposition,' 'establishing,' and deposition of persons; or it may also mean 'notion' or 'designation' of types of persons." ..... S: We can then read the entire text of "Puggala-pa~n~nati" with a)an understanding that all the references to people are designations or sammutisacca, pointing to various combinations of cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or b) with an understanding, like the Puggalavaadins, that in each example, 'the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact.....'. Metta, Sarah ======= #76596 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: The only "clue" in your post that the article is not your writing is > the > two unfamiliar words , Hammalawa Saddhatissa, in the middle of the > post! .... S: I know you've cleared all this up now, but wish to add that these two 'unfamiliar words' are the name of a well-known Buddhist monk, Pali scholar, writer and translator, Ven Saddhatissa from Sri Lanka. He died a few years ago, but I knew him quite well in London. So not so long ago, when James mentioned here that he'd come across the booklet and thought it was a useful one for beginners, I encouraged him to share it as it's not on line. You must have understandably missed our little exhange about this. ... > No, you have not made it clear even now. Again, same questions can > be asked : why present this article ? Do you think it does the job it > claims to do ? Why is it a contribution? .... S: Yes, a bit of an inquisition for James, but then he's been known to give the same:-)). Why don't you share your comments on Ven Saddhatissa's article. Do you agree with it so far? Would you add extra sutta quotes or comments? If so what? Remember it's being addressed to beginners, maybe to Westerners who are unfamiliar with many of the basic Buddhist concepts you grew up with. We have some very deep and detailed series running here, such as the Vism corner, so for some new to the list, this series with few Pali terms may be a refreshing change. What do you think? Thanks James, for your work and patience with the inquisition:-)) Metta, Sarah ======== #76597 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (16) hantun1 Dear Sarah (Tep, Nina), According to Rhys Davids Dictionary, pajaanaati means to know, find out, come to know, understand, distinguish. It doesn’t give the time factor. How soon to know, to find out etc. That’s’ what I am saying. The Buddha also did not specifically say one must know “at this very moment.” Of course, anyone can interpret the way he likes. Anyway, I have already accepted Nina’s explanation on this issue. “N: Very good you ask, since we speak all the time about the present moment. We could not catch one citta or know it at the moment of its arising. When we are seeing now, it seems that seeing lasts for a while. In reality it is one short moment arising in a process of cittas and these fall away to be followed by a mind-door process of cittas that also experience visible object. But visible object impinges on the eyesense again and seeing arises again and again. We cannot count the processes, but what can be known is a characteristic of seeing as different from hearing, a characteristic of sound as different from visible object, a characteristic of dosa as different from seeing. We do not try to catch the exact moment. Thus, usually we say: the characteristic of a reality appearing at the present moment. We use the term 'appearing'. When sati arises, they appear to sati, one at a time.” Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han & Tep, > --- han tun wrote: > > In Mahaasatipatthaana sutta, in cittaanupassanaa, > the > > Buddha said “saraagam vaa cittam saraagam cittanti > > pajaanaati.” To know mind affected by lust as mind > > affected by lust.” The Buddha did not say: “at > this > > very moment.” > > ========= #76598 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Hi Sukinder and All, you wrote: (D:let me suggest a special task: to request members , who speak with disrespect, degrading wellknown dhamma teachers , to prove their point or otherwise 'handcuffing them' by reason of wrong speech. What do you think ? ;-) ) :-) Are you saying that after Parinibbana there exist something by which one might recognize past Buddhas and Arahats? Is pointing out wrong view, `wrong speech'? What does "well known" have anything to do with being worthy of respect? D: talking about the background of my not so serious suggestion : I , and probably others Buddhists too , feel uncomfortable when there is disrespectful speech of monks , in particular of the senior one's , highly esteemed by (some) fellow disciples and (some of) the laity. A Buddhist is, as you may know , somebody who has taken refuge in the Triple Gem, i.e. Buddha , Dhamma and Sangha, to which we pay respect. So a Bhikkhu , who lives according to the Buddha Dhamma/ Vinaya , should be treated in a respectful way. ( You may find many sources in the Canon ...) In case one would doubt his dhamma interpretation , the Buddha told us : "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu - or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."' (DN 16: Maha-parinibbana Sutta) I like to emphasize ' scorn' .. and leave the cetesika identification to you. ..;-) Howard and I started ' Acariya Study Group' some time ago (failed lateron due to a lack of activity).. with the idea to learn from wellknown dhamma teachers.. though with a 'critical' eye, i.e. reseach of canonical resources. But there has never been any doubt about a respectful and kind treatment of the Acariyas involved, regardless of different views (of the specific school) . Does that answer you questions, Sukinder? with Metta Dieter #76599 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:21 am Subject: Questioning Versus Inquisition upasaka_howard Hi, all - Tep, in his recent post to James, didn't realize, I believe, the intentionally elementary nature of the piece that James quoted or that James had already checked as to the appropriateness of posting it, and, thinking that it may be oversimplified material for this list, Tep wondered aloud why James felt it worthwhile to post. I found Tep's questioning of James to be innocuous, and I have no doubt that it was well meaning. I have given this preamble to head off any thought that I am writing in criticism of Tep. I am not. But this miniscule event leads me to discussing another matter - that of really aggressive questioning on the list that amounts to an inquisition of lesser or greater intensity. Many of us, perhaps almost every one of us at some time or other, engages in an interrogation/inquisition of another list member that is not entirely harmless. By this I don't mean merely an inquiry or a questioning of points made or the expressing of disagreement, even done strongly and with frank language, but a challenging that is based on an attitude along the lines of "You don't know the true Dhamma, but I do." In the extreme, such interrogation reflects an attitude of "You are a heretic and a danger, and it is up to me (and my 'friends') to protect the dhamma from the likes of you." Such ego-based and aversion-based communication isn't, in my opinion, a useful way to discuss the Dhamma. It's a clinging to view that is expressed by some degree of unfriendly and intolerant speech or innuendo. The overwhelming majority of us avoid this almost all the time. Even so, I think it important to keep in mind the danger of arrogant certainty and, especially, the expression of such in our dealings with others. In this regard, I refer you to the following relevant suttas: Sn 4.12 and Ud 6.4. With metta, Howard