#77800 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dr han tun, sarah and nina hantun1 Dear Sarah and Jon, Dr. Manish asked me those questions by direct e-mail. He may have his own reasons to ask me directly without going through the forum. Perhaps, he wishes to gather all available information from me, Nina and Sarah, and other people he might have had asked as well, and then sort them out himself. Therefore, I would rather leave it to Dr Manish to decide what to do with these questions and answers. Respectfully, Han #77801 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:51 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (69) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 14 13. Viisatinipaato 4. Sundariitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verses: 334. "Passa sundari satthaara.m, hemava.n.na.m harittaca.m; adantaana.m dametaara.m, sambuddhamakutobhaya.m. 335. "Passa sundarimaayanti.m, vippamutta.m niruupadhi.m; viitaraaga.m visa.myutta.m, katakiccamanaasava.m. 333. Sundarii, see the Teacher, golden coloured, with golden skin, the Tamer of the Untamed, the Fully Awakened One, who has no fear from any quarter. 334. See Sundarii coming, completely released, without basis for rebirth, rid of desire, unfettered, her task done, without taints. Cy: Atha sundarii anukkamena saavatthi.m gantvaa vihaara.m pavisitvaa satthaara.m dhammaasane nisinna.m disvaa u.laara.m piitisomanassa.m pa.tisa.mvedayamaanaa attaanameva aalapantii aaha "passa sundarii"ti. Hemava.n.nanti suva.n.nava.n.na.m. Harittacanti ka~ncanasannibhattaca.m. Ettha ca bhagavaa piitava.n.nena "suva.n.nava.n.no"ti vuccati. Atha kho sammadeva gha.msitvaa jaatihi"ngulakena anulimpitvaa suparimajjitaka~ncanaadaasasannibhoti dassetu.m "hemava.n.nan"ti vatvaa "harittacan"ti vutta.m. Pruitt: 333. Then in due course, Sundarii went to Savatthi, entered the monastery, and saw the Teacher seated on the seat of the Doctrine. Experiencing great joy and gladness, addressing herself, she said, Sundarii, see the Teacher, golden coloured (hema-va.n.na.m), of the colour of gold (suva.n.na-va.n.na.m). With golden skin means: his skin resembled gold. And here, she says the Blessed One is the coulour of gold because he is yellow coloured. And then, to point out [his skin] is like a well-polished golden mirror anointed with well-crushed pure vermilion, she said golden coloured [and] with gold skin. Passa sundarimaayantinti ta.m sundarinaamika.m ma.m bhagavaa aagacchanti passa. "Vippamuttan"ti-aadinaa a~n~na.m byaakarontii piitivipphaaravasena vadati. 334. See Sundarii coming means: see me, by the name of Sundarii, coming, Blessed One. By the words completely released, etc, explaining her perfect knowledge, whe speaks because she is pervaded with joy. verses: 336. "Baaraa.nasito nikkhamma, tava santikamaagataa; saavikaa te mahaaviira, paade vandati sundarii. 337. "Tuva.m buddho tuva.m satthaa, tuyha.m dhiitaamhi braahma.na; orasaa mukhato jaataa, katakiccaa anaasavaa. 335. Gone out from Baaraa.nasii and come into your presence, your disciple Sundarii pays homage to your feet, Great Hero. 336. You are the Buddha. You are the Teacher. I am your daughter. Brahman, your true child, born from your mouth, [with] my task done, without taints. txt: Kuto pana aagataa, kattha ca aagataa, kiidisaa caaya.m sundariiti aasa"nkantaana.m aasa"nka.m nivattetu.m "baaraa.nasito"ti gaatha.m vatvaa tattha "saavikaa caa"ti vuttamattha.m paaka.tatara.m kaatu.m "tuva.m buddho"ti gaathamaaha. Tassattho- imasmi.m sadevake loke tuvameveko sabba~n~nubuddho, di.t.thadhammikasamparaayikaparamatthehi yathaaraha.m anusaasanato tuva.m me satthaa, aha~nca khii.naasavabraahma.nii bhagavaa tuyha.m ure vaayaama janitaabhijaatitaaya orasaa, mukhato pavattadhammaghosena saasanassa ca mukhabhuutena ariyamaggena jaatattaa mukhato jaataa, ni.t.thitapari~n~naataadikara.niiyataaya katakiccaa, sabbaso aasavaana.m khepitattaa anaasavaati. 335-336. To turn away the doubt of the doubting, "But where does she come from? And where is she coming? and what sort of person is this Sundarii?", she spoke the verse [beginning] [Gone out] from Saaraa.nasii. There, your disciple is said to make her meaning clearer, and she speaks the verse [beginning] You are the Buddha. The meaning of this is: in this world with its [men and] devas, you alone are the Omniscient Buddha. You are my Teacher through your teaching, as is appropriate, right view according to the ultimate truth about this world and the next. And I am a brahman woman who has destroyed all taints, O Blessed One, because I belong to the category of those born of effort at your breast, your true child. Through the utterance related to the Doctrine and the teaching produced by your mouth, though being born in the noble path, I am born from your mouth.* Because my obligation to thoroughly understand is finished, my task [is] done. The fact that all my taints (aasavaana.m) are destroyed [means I am] without taints (anaasavaa). *On the brahmin belief that they were born of the mouth of Brahmaa, see M II 48 (MLDB 746). verse: 338. "Tassaa te svaagata.m bhadde, tato te aduraagata.m; eva~nhi dantaa aayanti, satthu paadaani vandikaa; viitaraagaa visa.myuttaa, katakiccaa anaasavaa"ti.- Imaa gaathaa paccudaahaasi. 337. Then welcome to you, good lady. Then you are not unwelcome. For in this way the tamed come, paying homage to the Teacher's feet, rid of desire, unfettered, their task done, without taints. txt: Athassaa satthaa aagamana.m abhinandanto "tassaa te svaagatan"ti gaathamaaha. Tassattho- yaa tva.m mayaa adhigata.m dhamma.m yaathaavato adhigacchi. Tassaa te, bhadde sundari, idha mama santike aagata.m aagamana.m su-aagata.m. Tato eva ta.m aduraagata.m na duraagata.m hoti. Kasmaa? Yasmaa eva~nhi dantaa aayantiiti, yathaa tva.m sundari, eva~nhi uttamena ariyamaggadamathena dantaa tato eva sabbadhi viitaraagaa, sabbesa.m sa.myojanaana.m samucchinnattaa visa.myuttaa katakiccaa anaasavaa satthu paadaana.m vandikaa aagacchanti, tasmaa tassaa te svaagata.m aduraagatanti yojanaa. Sundariitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 337. Then the Teacher, rejoicing in her arrival, spoke the verse [beginning] Then welcome to you. The meaning of that is: you have duly understood the Doctrine attained by me. Good lady, Sundarii, your coming, [your] arrival in my presence here is welcome. There, this is not unwelcome (aduraagata.m), it is not unwelcome (na duraagata.m). Why? Because in this way the tamed come; therefore you, Sundarii, are restrained by the highest noble path, tamed, and from that time [the tamed] approach, rid of desire in every way, unfettered because all fetters have been cut off, their task done, without taints, paying homage to the Teacher's feet. Therefore then welcome to you, [you are] not unwelcome. That is the connection. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Sundarii. === *CAF Rhys Davids: Psalms of the Sisters, with the Chronicle from the Commentary by Dhammapaala entitled 'The Elucidation of the Highest Meaning'. PTS 1909 @ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html *Wm Pruitt: The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis: Theriigaathaa-A.t.thakathaa, Paramatthadiipanii VI by Aacariya Dhammapaala. PTS 1999 *txt/cy: vri cscd, tipitaka.org === peace, connie #77802 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A bit of a logical argument egberdina Hi DC, On 29/10/2007, DC Wijeratna wrote: > Thank you very much for your structured reply. I am afraid that I do an injustice to your post, because I choose to not answer all the good and worthwhile questions you ask. This is not to avoid them, but to somehow balance the limited amount of time I am prepared to spend on the internet, with dealing with the core issues. Please do not accept the following if you believe it dilutes the discussion, but I believe you have provided a good basis for continuing discussion by defining your understanding of kamma, as in : > > So according to the Dhamma, kamma is just action and nothing more. And that is my definition of kamma as well. Now what would you exactly mean by kamma? > Before I proceed to tell you why I believe kamma is a meaningless concept in the context of anatta (that is the whole gist of my argument), I would also like to quote something you wrote to Elaine. You wrote : "Life is good, isn't it? And so is death." This may well have been a conversational remark, and please do not see my dissection of it as an attack of some kind. But I would like to posit that in a logical argument, something that describes both any state and the negation of that state, describes nothing at all. That is a clumsy way of saying that, for example, if I say that this rock is blue, and everything else is also blue, no-one can have any idea what it means to be blue. For blueness is known only by differentiating it from all those things that are not blue, like red or yellow or green. In the same way, if life and not-life are both good, no-one can know what it means to be good. Good derives it's meaning from all that is not-good. The reason why I digressed to your quip to Elaine is that the same argument about goodness applies to kamma. I am quite happy to accept your definition of kamma as being action, but only if there is also something which is not-action. In the absence of not-action, the idea of action is meaningless ie undefined. And this is precisely why I believe kamma to be at best a meaningless concept in the context of anatta. Because anatta insists that there is no-one that acts. All phenomena are dependently arisen. And if there is no-one that acts, then action and non-action are identical in that they are both dependently arisen. If anatta is the way things are, then the concept of kamma is meaningless at best, and contradictory all the other times when agency (an actor who acts) is implied. > > One more point. I write for the sake of a discussion. And not for argument. I use the word argument only in the sense of logic. Me too. Logical argument is what makes constructive communication possible. >So if you find any word offending, please do point it out to me to correct myself. But >please understand that such an offence is not intended. Thank you. When I am offended, please point out to me that I have ceased to be logical :-) > > Regards, > > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna > > P. S. Have you seen anybody behaving in this world as if he had no attaa? > You may have noticed a small exchange between Howard and me about Schrodinger and cat noises. The implication of the chat was that the world is undetermined until questions are asked. In reply to your good question; in the absence of questions, I don't see either mine or anybody else's atta. I believe that happens regularly :-) Herman #77803 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leaving for Burma! egberdina Hi Sarah, On 30/10/2007, sarah abbott wrote: > > Also, whilst we were recently in Jetavana, some friends were asked by some > Indian bhikkhus for funds. They said they were very hungry. A.Sujin's > response to those who were inclined to offer funds to the bhikkhus was to > ask which is worse: for them to starve or to send them straight to hell! > =============== In this little excerpt, A Sujin sounds like a miserable fundamentalist, able to discern only degrees of black. These comments lack any insight into anatta altogether. Fancy expecting judgments on what would be worse for a being from beings who also cannot do anything other than what they do ?!. Or has the theory changed :-) Herman #77804 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dr han tun, sarah and nina egberdina Hi anybody, On 30/10/2007, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Manish (& Han), > > --- vipassana_infonet wrote: > > > dear dhamma brothers and sisters, > > > > i would like to express my heartfelt thanks and metta to respected dr > > han tun and respected upasikas sarah and nina. What is the difference between a dr and an upasika? Herman #77805 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leaving for Burma! sarahprocter... Hi Herman & all, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > On 30/10/2007, sarah abbott wrote: > > > > > > Also, whilst we were recently in Jetavana, some friends were asked by > some > > Indian bhikkhus for funds. They said they were very hungry. A.Sujin's > > response to those who were inclined to offer funds to the bhikkhus > was to > > ask which is worse: for them to starve or to send them straight to > hell! > > =============== > > In this little excerpt, A Sujin sounds like a miserable > fundamentalist, able to discern only degrees of black. These comments > lack any insight into anatta altogether. Fancy expecting judgments on > what would be worse for a being from beings who also cannot do > anything other than what they do ?!. Or has the theory changed :-) .... S: The 'judgments' were all given by the Buddha. It all comes down to conditioned dhammas, conditioned kamma, conditioned vipaka as usual. I just googled 'hell money vinaya' to get a quick reference and this was the first link I found. It's from a talk given by Mahasi Sayadaw. It comes down, I think, to the degree of respect one has for the Vinaya. **** http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Exhortations/exhortations.htmlVenerable Mahâsî Sayâdaw At the 23rd Annual Assembly of His Disciples Translated by U Sunanda <...> 1. Strict Observance of the Vinaya “Vinaya naama Buddha Saasanassa aayu, vinaye thite saasanam thitam hoti.” As expressed in the commentary, the Vinaya is the ‘life’ of the Buddha Sâsana. The Sâsana is alive only when the Vinaya prevails, and prevalence of the Vinaya depends on those who observe and practise it strictly. That is why everyone who reveres and cares for the preservation of the Sâsana should observe the Vinaya most respectfully, and should also urge his followers and close associates to do the same. The Lord Buddha exhorted his disciples to observe the Vinaya strictly as follows: “Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu sîlavaa hoti, Paatimokkha samvarasamvuto viharati, aacaaragocara sampanno, anumattesu vajjesu bhayadassaavii, samaadaaya sikkhamati sikkhaapadesu.” (Vism.15) In this Saasana a bhikkhu must observe strict morality (siila), that is Paatimokkha Siila. The meaning of ‘Paatimokkha’ is that those who strictly comply with it can escape the dangers of rebirth in the lower realms (apaaya): the animal world, the ghost world, the demon world, and hell. In brief, that means abstaining from committing unwholesome deeds and from speaking unwholesome words. Moreover, to safeguard Paatimokkha Siila one must possess noble moral conduct and proper resort (aacaaragocara sampanno). This is a very wide subject — for a detailed explanation one can refer to the ‘Visuddhimagga Siilaniddesa’ (p.16, M.57 etc.) I hope that you are all well-versed in it. Then, to observe the Paatimokkha fully and whole-heartedly one must see fear in the slightest fault (anumattesu vajjesu bhayadassaavii). There are seven classes of offence that a bhikkhu can fall into. Out of these seven, dukkhata and dubhaasita are the least serious. However, even these minor and apparently unimportant rules can send one to the four lower worlds if breached intentionally. So, realising the danger of suffering in apaaya, one should strive to be totally free from even the slightest misconduct." ***** S: I'm quoting this to indicate that the comments are clearly stated in the Vinaya and ancient commentaries. We also read in suttas about the accumulating of much demerit by lay people when offering what is unsuitable to the Buddha and his disciples, e.g. in the Jivaka Sutta,MN 55. Metta, Sarah ======== #77806 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A bit of a logical argument - for Herman upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Elaine & Tep) - In a message dated 10/30/2007 4:28:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Elaine and Tep, On 29/10/2007, Elaine wrote: > > > Elaine: I know exactly what you mean. If there is non-self, then who creates kamma? If there is non-self, then who goes to Nibbana? Right? > Thank you both very much for your further comments. They were much appreciated. Herman ================================ Elaine, a theist could ask "If there is non-self, who creates/created the world?" Also, "one" could ask "If there is non-self, who creates dreams?" There is no doubt that dreams arise based on prior and current experiences and thinking, but, Elaine, do "you" consciously create "your" dreams? (For the record, I will now stop using quotes around personal pronouns - KenH & company will just have to understand that when I speak a certain way it is *just* a manner of speaking! ;-) Now, I know from personal experience that our intentional thinking *can* influence dream content, but usually such conscious influencing doesn't occur, and never do we consciously actually *engineer* our dreams at the level of detailed dream construction. For that matter waking experience is also strongly influenced by our intention, but we do not consciously step-by-step create all details of "our" world of experience. Most importantly, all that is normally expressed as "our doing something" consists of impersonal events, that fact being the central meaning of "anatta" it seems to me. The sense of an "I" who acts is illusion! There is acting but no actor. Now, getting to kamma: Kamma is intention. When it arises, it arises as an element of an interconnected stream of mental and physical phenomena. Such intention has consequences into the future, consequences most especially with regard to future states of that very namarupic stream - of that "being". Of course it is crystal clear that there is interaction among sentient beings - people, animals, etc, like an array of mutually reflecting mirrors in a carnival funhouse, and thus these namarupic streams, while distinguishable, are not separable. They are mutually conditioning. But, to emphasize, they *are* distinguishable. As the Buddha taught - we are each heirs to our kamma. With metta, Howard #77807 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dr han tun, sarah and nina buddhistmedi... Hi Herman, - You probably are kidding ! > > What is the difference between a dr and an upasika? > > > Herman > These days the fast emailers like to use short-cuts to save their precious time (so that they have more time to play around somewhere else). They use short-hand abbreviations like 'ur' for 'you are', and 'btw' for 'by the way', etc. And they use lower cases throughout, forgetting capitalization completely. Thus, you have seen 'dr' that is from 'Dr' or 'doctor'. Personally, as an old-fashioned guy, I don't like any short-cut. ;-)) Tep ==== #77808 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. buddhistmedi... Hello DC, - >DC:. I have attempted to discuss some issues, which I think are important to the understanding of the Dhamma, with a number of DSG members. But they have all ended up in dead-ends? > T: I don't think so, DC. The dead-ends are just your illusion. I can give you one reason why our conversation has stopped : some of the messages I wrote to you were ignored. When you stop giving a reply to me, it tells me the conversation is dead. Tep ==== #77809 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:44 am Subject: Re: Response to DC Part 1. sukinderpal Hi Elaine, Thanks for allowing me time to respond. But I come back and see a ton of posts I have yet to go through! :-/ You wrote: ======================= E: When you say, "dhammas arise and fall", can you describe it in your own words, exactly "how" it arises and "how" it falls away? Do you see where dhamma come from and where it goes to? A question like where does the dhamma come from and where it goes to, is a wrongly put question, I know - but I'd like to hear your experience of the various ways how dhammas arises and falls away (I'm taking a guess that it is various ways, it could be only one way). Sukin: Examples that come to mind are: When there is seeing one moment and next moment the attention is paid to sound, this points to seeing having fallen away and hearing arisen. When there is the perception of people and things with the attention shifting from one object to another, this reflects the fact that visible object one moment conditions thinking the next and this is followed by seeing at a different moment conditioning thinking about something else after that, all this can't happen if dhammas didn't arise and fall away one after another. Sound must arise and fall away for there to be what we call "speech". All in all, if there were no arising and falling away of the various dhammas, there wouldn't be any action through speech, body or mind at all. As to the question of `how' and `where', you are right that these are not the right questions to ask. ====================== E: I think, I know a little bit about the feelings of pain arising and falling (I can't really see the minute detaila yet) but I can describe the rough observation of pain. Sukin: If by `minute details' you mean perceiving rise and fall of nama and rupa, I don't think we need to be concerned about this. That the Tilakkhana is the characteristic of conditioned dhammas, this is a matter of *understanding* which we can begin to have at the intellectual level. The mistake is in thinking that we can `try to observe / note'. Wise consideration arises by conditions and this may then also give rise to the understanding that there has been some of the same in the past. And when on the other hand it doesn't, we can also understand that this is because little / not enough of it has been accumulated. To think that "we" can make it arise by meditation or whatever, is to be wrong not only about the path and what in fact is the object of consciousness, but also one misses the opportunity to learning more about one's accumulations. And Elaine, I don't think you need to be able to describe your experiences to anyone. It is already misleading enough that we "try" to identify and label experiences, and when further we relay this to others, the self deception increases. The process is conditioned by `self- concern', and therefore involving much perversion of perception, consciousness and possibly also wrong view. Of course this is not saying that there can't arise even for us, some understanding of what has arisen; the problem however is in the "trying" to know / find out. It seems to lead one off into making false conclusions about one's own experiences. And why not, after all there has been little or no understanding of attachment and wrong view, so these must likely be the very dhammas taking charge! ====================== E: Pain, when it is watched closely, it does not feel painful, it changes, for example, sometimes the pain becomes a prickly sensation; sometimes it feels hot, sometimes it's cold; it comes and it goes away, sometimes slowly, sometimes fast; the painful area is sometimes expanding and sometimes contracting; it feels like the pain area moves about; etc. etc, there are many manifestations of pain and I have forgotten some of it but I can describe it because I have experienced it (I'm not trying to boast of anything because it is not an achievement). Sukin: This to me is only "thinking" and quite typical of those who engage in deliberate noting. It actually says little about the nature of the realities being described, but more about `self's' tendency to proliferate. That understanding at the intellectual level arising naturally is one thing and even this is only a momentary thing. It is however something else to be `noting deliberately' with the idea that this is informative of anything ultimately real. This latter is not understanding arisen by conditions, but more like a commentary conditioned by tanha and avijja. ====================== E: Only when there is some concentration (samadhi), I can watch it from a detached-mode and observe how pain changes in its own way. This observation is interesting (but not always), because when I'm restless and tired, I become the same thing as my pain and it feels very painful and difficult. Sukin: You are talking from experience, but again this is quite typical of those who meditate. The idea that "samadhi" is a condition for "seeing" (mindfulness and understanding), is very common. There seems to be however no interest in determining whether in fact what we think to be samadhi is what it is, let alone whether it is akusala or kusala. So too with all that revolves around this practice, such as the very `intention' to concentrate, or "being aware" of feelings or the hindrances etc. While being intent on the practice, most seem to be happily sticking to the conclusions made about this being concentration, this mindfulness, this aversion, this sloth and worse this is arising and falling away (anicca) of dhammas. To me the whole phenomenon is exactly the stuff of attachment and a good motivation to keep at the chosen practice. If only there was enough of the paramis accumulated to condition the realization that one is engaged in a form of `thinking' and nothing more. ====================== E: May I know, when you say the "dhammas arise and fall", what is your personal experience of the arising and falling of the dhamma? Can you describe in detail how this dhamma arise and how it falls? Sukin: I prefer to stick to theory. Too much perversion is involved when talking about "my" experience. Anyway, in the end if my description does not match with what the Buddha taught, then it must be wrong interpretation of the experiences. And if they do, it'll sound like I'm talking "theory" anyway. ====================== Sukin: If on the other hand in our eagerness to have direct experience, we bypass whatever arise now and instead follow some "idea of practice", does this sound to you like the right cause for the appropriate result? Does it not actually exhibit the characteristic of Tanha? And can tanha lead to Panna? E: I wouldn't want to call the eagerness to practise meditation, "tanha", there is another Pali word which means good desire, I can't remember it off-hand now. But I know what you mean; it is difficult to differentiate these subtle feeling, this desire to attain Nibbana may become greed and I agree that it is difficult to balance greed vs. good desire. Sukin: As DC pointed out, you must be referring to chanda, which is a mental factor arising with citta of all jatis. Indeed lobha must be supported by chanda when it arises. At this point allow me to draw your attention again to the kind of attitude so common amongst meditators, namely the tendency to bypass the present moment to instead follow an "idea" of practice. The interest seems to be so much more in "doing and results", that one does not care so much if in fact what underlies these practices is what one takes to be. You see even here, this tendency shows. You seem to be happy "after the fact" to label your experiences as possibly *positive* re: kusala chanda rather than that it might have been "lobha". This seems to be what most meditators end up doing, namely justifying their practices by attaching positive labels to them. On the other hand, acknowledging the great tendency towards akusala, one is careful not to deceive oneself in this way. And because there is no personal program of the kind, the way is open for the possibility of *any* reality being known at anytime. The test I believe, is in the growing confidence that *this* moment is same as any moment in terms of general characteristics and equally valid as object of understanding, and that the understanding itself arises irrespective of the conventional situation. Entertaining ideas about a better time, place and posture in fact indicates that such confidence is lacking. This confidence increases as one develops wisdom and is not something which comes at the end of time spent in `formal meditation' re: the effect of sitting being applied to moments "off the cushion". In fact, this latter clearly reflects a lack of confidence and appears more like a greedy struggle to grasp at something, and which then results in more power given to "self". ====================== E: But most of the time, I feel that I don't have enough "sense of urgency" and instead of greed, it has become laziness, which is worse. Sukin: Sense of urgency is another momentary reality conditioned by understanding the moment. It conditions an interest to knowing "this present moment" and not in ideas about "doings" in the future. So what you in fact consider to be sense of urgency as against greed / laziness, from my perspective these are just different expressions of the same akusala dhammas, namely ignorance and craving. Another long reply following this, so be prepared. ;-) Metta, Sukin. #77810 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. sukinderpal Hi Elaine, ================= Old Sukin: This and the idea re: Sila -> Samadhi -> Panna, so common amongst meditators are in fact "abstractions" got as a result of a wrong understanding of Dhamma. E: Your statement that it is Wrong Understanding, is weighty. I'm not saying whether you are right or wrong because I have no way to verify it. But, I really believe and have faith that sila ->samadhiàpanna is Right Understanding of the Dhamma. Actually, I hope that I can experience it for myself one day. Sukin: I think that you may be convinced by a particular line of reasoning supported by what seem like a confirmation through experience. This is very common and I too saw some sense in this, once upon a time. The thing is ignorance, attachment and wrong view does these things and is precisely why we remain stuck in samsara in spite of what we think we want. With the help of the Abhidhamma I have come to appreciate that Sila, like anything else, is a momentary reality arisen by conditions. There is no `one' who can make sila arise, let alone "have" it. But we do `like' the idea of having good Sila, and this comes in the form of stories centered on `self'. Stories which are then used in association with yet other ideas re: `sitting and developing concentration'. Little are we aware of the illusion of result conditioned by the particular line of thinking. Besides what kind of concentration do we have in mind?! In the development of Jhana, concentration serves to suppress the hindrances which then lead the jhanas being attained. This is achieved by repeatedly taking a "concept" as object. In Vipassana, the object being "conditioned realities", there is no place for any *use* of such concentration. The idea that a concentrated mind is then used to study realities makes no sense at all, in light of the fact that citta arises and falls away, each one by a new set of conditions. Or else there is the idea of the hindrances being suppressed and this then being "calm" leads to clarity of perception. This too, makes no sense. The calm of Jhana is conditioned by object and wisdom of a kind quite different from vipassana, therefore when switch to another object outside of the jhana state, the conditions that were present during jhana, no more takes effect. Indeed it is not even required, the kind of wisdom that is Vipassana is developed through growing familiarity with the particular and general characteristics of dhammas regardless they be kusala, akusala or avyakata. Just as ignorance, attachment and wrong view can and does take on any object by conditions without choice or control, so too when sati and panna gets developed, they do so by conditions without any need to direct the attention on to anything. Lobha arises without any control; do you not think that the same principle applies to all realities including sati and panna? ========================= E: Buddha said ehi passiko, come and see, so I'll take the challenge and see it for myself. Sukin: Yes, "come and see", and this implies there having to arise the correct Path taken and the correct kind of "seeing". So we are back to having first to determine what is and what is not the Path and whether what we do is anywhere close to what this is. You seem to be so sure that this idea re: sila -> samadhi -> panna is correct, I am quite sure that it isn't :-). And this is why I question the very endeavor especially given the fact that ignorance, craving and wrong view does fool us into thinking that we are doing the right thing and getting somewhere with it. ========================= E: But when you made that weighty statement, have you personally experienced it and verified that it is wrong? Which sutta says that it is Wrong Understanding? Sukin: Are you saying that I need to have tested out the method myself? I don't think it is necessary. I'm sure you wouldn't be attracted to the idea of sitting in front of a Buddha image and praying for enlightenment, would you? In the same way I perceive this idea of sila -> samadhi -> panna as being wrong, for reasons that I have tried to show above. You're not serious about the Sutta evidence I think…? ;-) ======================== E: I have to repeat to myself again, that I really, really have faith, sila ->samadhiàpanna is Right Understanding (eventhough I don't have direct experience of it yet). Sukin: What is this faith based on? ======================== Sukin: Furthermore, this is projected into the future and results in no attention ever being paid to the fact that dhammas arise and fall now and these can and must be studied. E: If the dhamma arise and fall can be studied and it works for you, it is good. But I still have no idea how dhamma can be understood from studying. Maybe I am misunderstanding you, how do you study the Dhamma? Sukin: The idea is to "understand" that they do and not about observing them to. After all one needs first to understand what *are* these dhammas / dhatus / khandhas etc. before there can be any deep understanding of their nature to arise and fall away. All this is reflected in the idea that understanding starts with the level of pariyatti, only then can patipatti arise and which would then finally condition pativedha. How do I study the Dhamma? Being open to the fact that while studying, whatever arises does so by conditions beyond control. That knowledge is the knowledge of dhammas and not accumulation of ideas. That if and only when panna does arise to know the present moment, can one be said to have "applied" the theory. The rest of the time, one might just as well be said to be lost in a dream, and this in my case is like 99.9 % of the time including that which is spent on reading and discussing Dhamma. :- ( Besides I see a direct relationship between pariyatti and patipatti in which there is *no room for a "self"* who decides to study and apply. This helps me not to overreach, and sometimes by conditions there may in fact arise a level of `application' which is cintamaya panna, and this further deepens any accumulated understanding. ======================= Sukin: Are you by any chance suggesting that we should not go by this understanding and instead continue reacting in the way we always have, namely as if people and things are real? E: I think people and things are real, they are a conventional reality, which is a reality. (I don't want to get into philosophy, but I think humans are real, they are made from nama and rupa realities, two realities merge together doesn't make an unreal thing, I think). I don't want to get into logic argument and other stuffs because I don't understand it. Sukin: Yes conventional reality. This means that they are mind constructed. Let us say anger arises, do you think that at that particular moment there is anything more? If in fact your whole life is a series of cittas arising and falling away, each experiencing some object or the other, why the need to posit anything more? Let's take an example, you step on a nail and there is pain. Is there a need to think of someone experiencing the pain (except for when you go see a doctor ;-)) or is there only pain followed by other cittas experiencing other objects and conditioned by other realities, for example mana? It is right to think in terms of persons and things in dealing with day to day situations, however I think it to be a *big* mistake to do so when considering Dhamma. In Dhamma we are to understand these fleeting mental and physical phenomena that make up our life, namely the five khandhas or citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling away now. No "person" is ever involved in this, therefore bringing in persons only serves to further mislead rather then to better understand. Elaine, I realize that I've just thrown a lot of words at you in these last two posts. But this is me, there is one like this everywhere ;-), so please don't mind. Anyway, I'm very behind in my reading and since Sarah has come back and soon Nina will too, the list is going to be too busy for me to want to write anything more than just one post a week. So do feel at ease. ;-) Metta, Sukin #77811 From: Elaine Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Bodh Gaya shennieca Hi Sarah, Thank you for your thoughts and opinions. It will be difficult for us to agree with each other because our point of view of the Buddha dhamma is different. --------------- E: Do you know whether the chief monk is practicing Samatha or Vipassana meditation at the Vulture’s Peak? You said some Satipatthana Sutta questions were raised, so I presume that he is practicing Vipassana. S: Please clarify what you mean by 'practicing Samatha' and 'Practicing Vipassana'. E: I was asking if the chief monk is doing Samatha meditation or Vipassana meditation at the Vulture’s peak. Sometimes I have a habit of calling meditation, practice, sorry about the confusion. ------------------------ S: I think we have a different understanding of what 'calmness' is and what 'vipassana' is. As I understand the meaning of vipassana, no one can practice it. It refers to the development of insights through satipatthana. E: Yes, I think we understand it differently. Vipassana comes from 2 words, Vi + Passana. Vi means “in various ways” and Passana means “seeing”, so Vipassana means, “seeing in various ways”. What do you understand by Vipassana? When you say no one can practise Vipassana, that literally means, “no one can practise seeing in various ways”. This seeing is with the mind’s eye, which will lead to wisdom. No? I am not an experienced Buddhist or a learned Buddhist. So I cannot say what I am saying is correct. If you think it is impossible to do Vipassana, it is Ok. I will stop recommending Vipassana practice in DSG. -------------------- S: I think it depends on whether the cittas are kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome). When we look for a quiet place away from disturbances, usually it's with attachment masquerading as calm. E: It is impossible for me to analyze my thoughts whether it is kusala or akusala when it comes to judging calmness. In your opinion, is calmness always necessarily Akusala? Why? If calmess is Akusala, is it correct to say, non-calmness is Kusala? Why do you think calmness will lead to attachment? It might lead to attachment and it might not. We cannot say when we eat food that it is attachment, because it is a necessity. Some people eat, they do it to survive, some people eat and they binge on it and it becomes greed. So people do the same thing but in different ways. Calmness is like that, not a right or wrong thing, it depends on the individual, on how they deal with it. I think calmness is a precursor to insight. I don’t mean you need Jhana to get to Insight, but some level of calmness is necessary. Ohhh ok, now I see it, maybe your understanding of calmness and mine is different? My meaning of calmness is, the mind is not agitated, this calmness may lead to deeper calmness such as one-pointedness of the mind, and hopefully to Right Concentration, Samma-samadhi. What does KS teach regarding Samma-samadhi? That it arises on its own without having to do anything? This Samma-samadhi will not arise while you are doing daily activities or while typing an e-mail reply and I’m sorry to say that out loud in DSG. ---------------------- S: Yes, only understanding with awareness can know what the cittas are at any given moment. However, if we have the idea of the practice or meditation as being more favourable at another time, in another place, it suggests attachment to one's self, rather than detachment towards what is conditioned now. E: I like it when you say, “understanding with awareness”. But “to know what the cittas are at any given moment” - that ability I do not have. I do not know what are the cittas that have arisen and gone at this moment. When I do satipatthana, my cittanupassana ability is weak. Cittanupassana is the ‘Contemplation of the Consciousness’ as mentioned in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, or as, ‘the watching of the mind’. If you are able to watch the mind in your daily practise, sadhu to you because that is the most admirable practice a person can ever have. Sort of like an arahant who is forever mindful. ----------------------------- S: How about now? If I ask whether there is calm or attachment now, is that appropriate, would you say? E: Right now, while typing this e-mail, I feel rather calm. I'm not angry, excited or sad. I think it is appropriate for me to be calm. I don’t think it is attachment because I don’t seek it or feel unhappy when it is gone. I don’t think any of us, who are puthujjanas can bravely say that we have already let go of attachments. Have you let go of any attachments - subtle and gross? The best that I can do when attachment (cravings, greed) arises, is to be aware of it but it is very difficult to do, everytime I have cravings to eat chocolates, I go and eat it immediately. I am not too good with watching the mind yet. heheh. Attachment to a person is the hardest to let go, I feel. But I think when a person gets very good in their satipatthana meditation, and the moment “Intention” arises, they will know it, they will know the nature of Intention, how it behaves and etc. etc. (I personally have not seen Intention arising, but I’ve heard of people who has). Hoping to understand what “Intention” is, someday. With mettaa, Elaine #77812 From: Elaine Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. ..Introduction :-)) shennieca Hi DC, all, Thank you for asking about me. Thank you for your kindness. No, don’t apologize at all, I feel embarrassed by it. I think, you are following the right Noble 8 Foldpath, keep on doing it. DC: Could you please tell me about your educational background? The secular educational background. E: I have a B.Sc in Chemistry, from University Malaya, KL. I haven’t made a proper introduction in DSG, so I’ll do a brief one. I am 36 years old. I was born in Malaysia and lived there for 30 years. I worked as a Sr. Process Engineer in a Semiconductor factory in M’sia for a couple of years. I think there was a shortage of graduates with engineering degree, so the factories have to take in people with Science or Maths degree to work as engineers (rolleyes). I got married about 6 years ago and moved to Toronto to be with my husband. I’m now a housewife, but it is a lot of work, the laundry, cooking, grocery shopping, running errands etc. etc. it’s a fulltime job but I make time to troll Buddhist forums, it’s my guilty pleasure, hahah. :D :-)) DC, Tep, Sarah and everyone in DSG, please tell us more about yourself. Thank you! Warmest regards, Elaine #77813 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A bit of a logical argument dcwijeratna Hi Herman, Thank you for your reply to me. I like your suggestion to limit our discussion within limits of manageability. Time is a constraint to me too, but scope of the discussion is more important from my point of view. Not only that, I shall be very brief. Let me state my understanding of the issue: How to reconcile the two Buddhists kamma and anattaa. Your position is they are not irreconcilable. My statements are based on the following: "I believe kamma is a meaningless concept in the context of anatta (that is the whole gist of my argument)," The position with regard to kamma is: "I am quite happy to accept your definition of kamma as being action, but only if there is also something which is not-action. In the absence of not-action, the idea of action is meaningless ie undefined." With regard to atta: "In reply to your good question; in the absence of questions, I don't see either mine or anybody else's atta. I believe that happens regularly :-)" This is from the post script. I hope I have understood your assertions and arguments properly. Let me begin my response in the following manner. 1. The Pali word atta is derived from Sanskrit. In Brahmanism, it was 'something' associated with a human being that survived death. On the other hand, what we call 'the pysical body' perished (at death); at least it got separated since it survived. To this atman they gave the name 'antaryaamin', the inner cotroller. Finally atman was equated to Brahman, God. It was when these ideas were prevalent that the Buddha appeared. Here, we need to make an assumption. That the Buddha was enlightened. Or at least to discuss these questions withing the 'Laws of the Buddha'. We cannot analyse, for example, how a fan rotates, if we question the Maxwell's Equations. I am making here a point which I think is important. If I have not made myself clear please comeback. Now, what the Buddha said was: There are only 'sattaa' within our experience. Now a human being is a human being. It cannot be separated as atman and a physical body. In a language that is closer to us mind and body is not true. But mindbody is true. The Buddha called it Naamaruupa, sometimes, panchakkhanda. But in normal conversation he would use the term purisa-puggala. So I kept it short and restricted to one topic: attaa. Regards, DC #77814 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - I am addressing one point you made in a recent post: In a message dated 10/28/2007 10:41:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: H: "...It seems to me that recollecting the harmfulness of impatience, thinking about it, and thinking about the usefulness of being patient serves as a prompt and helps train the mind towards diminishing of impatience and increase in patience." Scott: The above suggests that the thinking about patience can make it come. The mind cannot be trained by thinking about training it and adopting techniques to train it. Patience develops as it does by conditions and never by someone deciding to 'be more patient'. ============================== Scott, there is frequently emphasized by the students of Khun Sujin the importance of reading and considering the Dhamma. I strongly agree with that emphasis. The akusala nature of impatience is part of the Dhamma, and contemplating the harm in it and the usefulness of patience is, indeed, considering the Dhamma. Will everything I write, even when consonant with the teachings of Khun Sujin, be twisted out of shape and rejected simply because my name is "Howard"? With metta, Howard #77815 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:16 am Subject: Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. buddhistmedi... Dear Howard (and Scott), - You were discussing how recollecting/thinking about the harmfulness of impatience might help diminishing impatience and increasing patience. > >Scott: The above suggests that the thinking about patience can make it come. The mind cannot be trained by thinking about training it and adopting techniques to train it. Patience develops as it does by conditions and never by someone deciding to 'be more patient'. > Howard: Scott, there is frequently emphasized by the students of Khun Sujin the importance of reading and considering the Dhamma. I strongly agree with that emphasis. The akusala nature of impatience is part of the Dhamma, and contemplating the harm in it and the usefulness of patience is, indeed, considering the Dhamma. Will everything I write, even when consonant with the teachings of Khun Sujin, be twisted out of shape and rejected simply because my name is "Howard"? T: The view/ditthi that patience is a conditioned dhamma and therefore it cannot be made to come/arise by a person's intention or practice (or mental training = bhavana, development) is due to a strict interpretation of ultimate realities as the ONLY truth. Because of the fact that "practicing patience" involves a 'person' in the loop, the word practice immediately irks the strict interpreter of paramattha-dhamma. If you substitute 'consciousness' or 'citta' for 'person', there will be no rejection, I believe. :-)) Tep === #77816 From: Elaine Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A bit of a logical argument - for Herman shennieca Hi Howard, Thank you for the post. I agree with you. :-)) Yes, these namarupa stream is distinguishable. I believe we have the ability to verify it for ourselves. It won't be easy but I have heard some people say they can observe nama-rupa as separate entities within 2 weeks of their intensive meditation retreat. (I know, I shouldn't ask what they see, what is their attainment, etc,etc, but I'm always curious). Our subconscious mind pops up in our dreams. But sometimes when I dream of doing unwholesome things, I'd know that it is unwholesome and it’s almost like I'm not really dreaming, I’d know that I am in a dream. Is it mindfulness appearing while dreaming? Maybe. I know what you mean about writing quotes in front of every I and you. Some people here think that the "self" is a four-letter dirty word, LoL. We need a boat to cross over to the other shore. So, talking about the boat is fine, I think. ;-)) Actually, I don’t know how to have a conversation using abhidhammic terms, every conversation is conventional, how can it be otherwise? I don’t know how people do it. hahah. ;-)) About "cetana", I don't know what "Intention" or "Volition" is. I know the basic word like "I have an intention to go shopping" but this Buddhist "Intention" has been interpreted in a strange way in DSG, that I have not understood. So I'll leave it for now. :-)) Sincerely, Elaine #77817 From: Elaine Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. - to Sukin shennieca Dear Sukin, I don’t think I can discuss the dhamma with you. Thank you very much for your time. Elaine: Pain, when it is watched closely, it does not feel painful, it changes... Sukin: This to me is only "thinking" and quite typical of those who engage in deliberate noting. ----------------- Elaine: This is the most atrocious accusation I have ever come across. To you it is only “thinking” because you have not experienced it. Have you actually sat down and experienced it, if you have not, then you cannot say for sure that it is “thinking”. Have you experienced pain during meditation? I doubt it very much. Please ignore all my posts to you. Thank you. Sincerely, Elaine #77818 From: Elaine Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. - to Sukin shennieca Hi Sukin, I don't understand a single that you wrote, I am dumb. I also wasn't taught Buddhism the same way you were. If you find that it works for you, it's good. Be a good abhidhammist. Warm regards, Elaine #77819 From: Elaine Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. shennieca Dear all, If there are anyone here who are able to understand the arising and falling away of the dhamma "through their own experience", I am impressed but if it is memorized from some books, or heard it from a teacher and regurgitated repeatedly, then it is not the real Buddha dhamma, it becomes preaching. Learning from a teacher is necessary, but we should not believe everything s/he says because mere believing is blind-faith. If the citta of hearing is described as such-and-such by the teacher, go and experience it for yourself because the Buddha said to verify it for ourselves. If there are people here who have already realized the arising and falling of the dhamma, it is wonderful, but I won't read what is written by that person because it would spoil the surprises of seeing it for myself. With mettaa, Elaine #77820 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. dcwijeratna Dear Tep, Many thanks for you e-m. I have quoted below the full text of your message below with my views on some of the matters that you have raised. ">DC:. I have attempted to discuss some issues, which I think are important to the understanding of the Dhamma, with a number of DSG members. But they have all ended up in dead-ends? > " DC: My statement above is a general statement. It was not specifically not intended to you or to anybody else. I thought my sentence "But they have all ended up in dead-ends?" would convey the information I wanted to convey in an impersonal manner. "They" in that conversation refers to the discussion. A dead-end to me is a position from where you can't move forward. ---------------------- > T: I don't think so, DC. The dead-ends are just your illusion. DC: Quite possible. Most of the time I am under illusions and under delusion permanently. -------------------- > T: I can give you one reason why our conversation has stopped : some of the messages I wrote to you were ignored. When you stop giving a reply to me, it tells me the conversation is dead. DC: Here you are stating about your reaction to some events. Those explanations however, might not be the way I reacted. Here is my version: > "What do you think of it, I mean my understanding? T: It is different from mine." I cannot respond to an answer like that. You haven't given any reasons in your reply. So effectively conversation is ended. I remember another one where you talked of Pa.tisambhidhaamagga. That is outside my range. I have not studied the book. Though I am acquainted with it. It is considered an Abhidhamma book though in Khuddhaka. I really have no settled view on it. Well roughly that is the situation. Kind Regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77821 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. buddhistmedi... Hi DC, - See, there is no "dead-end" right now. ! > > T: I can give you one reason why our conversation has stopped : some of > the messages I wrote to you were ignored. When you stop giving a reply > to me, it tells me the conversation is dead. > DC: Here you are stating about your reaction to some events. Those explanations however, might not be the way I reacted. Here is my version: > "What do you think of it, I mean my understanding? T: It is different from mine." I cannot respond to an answer like that. You haven't given any reasons in your reply. So effectively conversation is ended. I remember another one where you talked of Pa.tisambhidhaamagga. That is outside my range. I have not studied the book. Though I am acquainted with it. It is considered an Abhidhamma book though in Khuddhaka. I really have no settled view on it. Well roughly that is the situation. > .................. T: I see. It is again communication problems, in various forms, both ways. Are there solutions? Maybe, but I don't think there are easy solutions. :-) Tep ==== #77822 From: Elaine Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. shennieca Hi KenH, Thank you for your reply. KenH: I open a book - or I click on DSG - and I study the single-citta theory. Elaine: Studying the theory is never enough. Imagine yourself reading piano notes (theory) but not being able to play the piano piece (practical). It defies the purpose of the theory. The ability to write what this citta is, what that citta is, is not enough. If it were, then all philosophers would get enlightened by now, don't you think? I don't know how else to say it. But if you think that theory is all you need, it is Ok. Sincerely, Elaine #77823 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:36 am Subject: Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. moellerdieter Hi Elaine ( Sarah and others), just a comment between ..you wrote: 'But I believe a human being can personally experience a grosser level, that the body (rupa) and the mind (nama) are different entities. This can be observed through vipassana bhavana, by watching the breath or the rising/falling of the abdomen. When a person watches the rising/falling of the abdomen, they are watching the air element (vayo-dhatu) and if you watch it closely, you would see that the body is one thing and the mind that is watching it, is a different thing. (I am regurgitating this from a book because I could not see it for myself yet). ' D: The rising and falling of the abdomen is going along with in- and out-breathing. I think the difference compared with watching the air stream at the nostrils is, that the sensation is stronger and easier to follow, but that may depend on personal preference. Unlike other bodily functions it isn't so difficult to start to distinguish here the observer and the observed (mind and body), as we can watch ... Compare with the Maha Satipatthana Sutta D.N. 22 (excerpt): '" There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication.' The skilled turner represents the mind watching , the work (breathing) runs rather automatically . Note that 'calming the bodily fabrication' is emphasized , as it is the observation supporting calm ( a kind of 'communication ' between the sympathetic (unrest)-parasympathetic (rest) nervous system). Lots of literature available .. Though not an anapana sati expert, I suppose some people assume far more difficulties than the actual practise will show.. with Metta Dieter #77824 From: Elaine Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] vsm 429 (was 'no subject') shennieca Hi Colette, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Colette: Isn't it wonderful how science and religion or theology or philosophy seem to butt heads with each other to contradict? Elaine: Yes, I think they contradict because we cannot see the whole picture and we can’t tie the loose ends together. We are mere human beings, unenlightened. The Buddha explained the universe as beginningless, he didn’t go into the details of how the universe began. But I think science and religion can go hand in hand. I have 2 cousins working as research scientists (one of them is a manageress of a R&D dept) in Glaxo pharmaceuticals UK, and both of them are Catholics, I guess there are a few scientists who thinks that it does not contradict. -------------------- Colette: Can we have tactile consciousness, through touch, of Light? What about ear-consciousness of Sound by touching Sound? Sound touches us though, doesn't it? Elaine: This is very abhidhammic. I only know the basic things like, we cannot hear sound with our eyes. As for hearing-consciousness, maybe it is like this - there is external noise but if I don’t pay-attention to it, then hearing-consciousness will not arise. I don’t know how to put this sentence in an abhidhammic way without the I in there. Even if I omit all the “I” and the “you”, it won’t make a person reading it understand it better, will it? I don’t know, maybe. --------------------- Colette: are you suggesting that Buddha Nature does not exist in all living things? Elaine: Buddha Nature is not a Theravadin ideology but I think it does exist in all living things. The Mahayanist and Tibetans think that all human beings have the potential to become enlightened, to become a Buddha. I don’t dare to aspire that high, it is too ambitious for me. I am a mere small ignorant being, a cula-sotapanna or a sotapanna is a dream fulfilled. The concept of “diamonds in the rough” is cool. We slowly get rid of the dirt in our minds and we will come to see the original mind, the pure mind. I think this is a good way of thinking about our mind. The pureness is already there, we only have to discover it. ----------------- Colette: Can we be sure that life does not exist in a Black Hole? We can only be sure of what we know, and how do we know something? We are taught or maybe it's called CONDITIONED to know something and we certainly are conditioned to NOT KNOW THINGS, ... Elaine: I think the Buddha did say that there are lives out there. I don’t know where, maybe a parallel universe or something. Yea, I know, if we knew everything we would not be ignorant human beings. ----------- Colette: aren't you speculating that Connie and I are actual people that have thoughts and think? Life is one big crap shoot huh? Elaine: I don’t understand what you mean. I think we are actual people and we think. Thoughts and ideas are intellect-consciousness. Why do you think you are not an actual person? Why do you think that you are a concept? A few DSG people keep repeating that you and I are concepts. How about words, they are concept too. When they type citta this and citta that, that is a concept too, it does not automatically become a reality because of the usage of the word citta. Only when a being understands citta (consciousness) in their mind, it becomes wisdom (ultimate). Just because someone knows how to type the word citta, does not make it an ultimate reality. Why use the word citta, use the word consciousness, I'd understand it better, not that I know what consciousness is. Scientists and philosophers have been studying consciousness for ages and DSG abhidhammikas understands the mind and consciousness very well, it's cool. -------------- Colette: not very respectful, huh? Telling a Deva that they may not be present in the temple or the house. Gots ta get a handle on that DOUBT of yours. It causes hesitation and fear. Elaine: Ok, ok, I believe they are present. Thank you for the reminder. :-)) -------------- Elaine: I just wish I could pray to someone who could make all my wishes come true.. sigh.. Colette: a little vanity showing, no? Elaine: Maybe a little vanity. I am in need of some help at the moment. Like, if I am drowning, I will shout loudly, hoping that there is a passer-by who will hear me and throw me a life-jacket. I don’t know if there is anyone nearby but I will shout anyway. So, this is what I am doing, I think, what if there really is a God, whom we cannot see and hear but is present? I hope he hears my call for help. This is not a very Theravadin concept but…it is my last resort. I don’t know what to do with stress, telling myself to relax does not work because this body does not listen to me. Maybe I’ll try yoga (but yoga lesson is expensive). I have to try it on my own, I hope I don’t sprain my back by doing it all wrong. heheheh :-)) Thanks for listening. I hope I wasn’t ranting. Sincerely, Elaine P/S: Colette, some of your writing is in flowery English language and I might not get your meaning but I’ll try. ;-)) #77825 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leaving for Burma! egberdina Hi Sarah, So, realising the danger of suffering in apaaya, > one should strive to be totally free from even the slightest misconduct." Excuse me for having misunderstood you for the last six, seven years. I always read you as maintaining that the notion of "one striving" was riddled with self -view. Perhaps you can now allow yourself to meditate without guilt. Herman #77826 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dr han tun, sarah and nina egberdina Hi Tep, On 31/10/2007, Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi Herman, - > > You probably are kidding ! I wasn't, actually. > > > > What is the difference between a dr and an upasika? > > > > > > Herman > > > > These days the fast emailers like to use short-cuts to save their precious > time (so that they have more time to play around somewhere else). They > use short-hand abbreviations like 'ur' for 'you are', and 'btw' for 'by the > way', etc. And they use lower cases throughout, forgetting capitalization > completely. Thus, you have seen 'dr' that is from 'Dr' or 'doctor'. > Personally, as an old-fashioned guy, I don't like any short-cut. ;-)) > I knew that dr is short for doctor, but I still do not know why a doctor should get a mention separate from an upasika. I understand that different cultures are very big on social stratification and differentiation, but is that at all connected to anything the Buddha taught, apart from realising the suffering inherent in comparisons of all sorts? Herman MCFG PLD 67i.v (second level) :-) #77827 From: Alyssa Ryvers Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:22 am Subject: Hello aryvers Hi, I found my way to the dhammastudygroup doing searches on these verses: "Sabbo adipito loko, sabbo loko padhupito; sabbo pajjalito loko, sabbo loko pakampito. Akampitam apajjalitam, aputhujjana-sevitam, agati yatha marassa, tatha me nirato mano." --Upacala Sutta, Samyutta Nikaya, V. 7. I see there are serious students of the dhamma here. I am grateful to have found my way here. Best wishes, Alyssa Ryvers Composer | Compositeur Music North Inc. www.musicnorth.com #77828 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:26 pm Subject: Re: A bit of a logical argument philofillet Hi Sarah Welcome back. We missed you. > > I found that when I was very keen on the teachings of Acharn Sujin > > that I got a lot of emotional comfort from reflecting on anatta, on > > penetrative panna, that sort of thing. I'm not saying all her > > students do, but I did, I thought afterwards I should have said "I don't know if *any* of her students do... and I came to see that was a bit odd. Now I > > get emotional comfort from the kind of suttas I referred to in my > > post - that seems more in line with the way the Buddha taught to > > sensually addicted householders like me! > .... > S: I wonder whether this 'emotional comfort' you look for and find is > detachment or more attachment? Sarah, did I say "look for?" The emotional comfort, or encouragement or whatever comes or it doesn't come. If it comes from reflecting on deep teachings, I think there is something a bit odd at work. There is nothing comforting about the deep teachings, really, unless we have the wisdom to approach them. Well, yes, there is encouragement in reflecting on those who have gotten there. And yes, probably more attachment. There is no way around it for us, I think. "Detachment from the beginning" is just thinking about detachment from the beginning with attachment, as far as I can see. (I'm not a believer in the AS pariyatti >pattippati>pativedha dynamic, since I am not a believer in the way she teaches samma samadhi as a momentary citta that can arise any place, any time. But that's OK - I still like listening to what you folks have to say, and who knows maybe I'll here some other teacher talking in the same terms...) > > You also mentioned sometime back something along the lines of looking for > and finding a 'change of character'. Again, this may reflect a difference > in aim and purpose. Well, if I said "change of character" I was wrong, or careless in wording. We are born and I would guess stuck with predominant characters, temperaments. I'm enjoying studying about that in Vism. these days. But can we come to channel the worst tendencies of those temperaments in a maeningful way, meaningful enough to say "people change" in a way that is relevant to the Buddha's teaching? Yes. And we find it in AN again and again and again...all the suttas about reflecting on destinations after death are meant as condition for channeling, weakening our worst tendencies, no doubt about that. And also no doubt that we are all different with different tendencies and there may be some people who have wholesome tendencies that would not leave them exposed to great danger when the follow a way that is void of intentional practice in the light of an understanding of the Buddha as a teacher who prescribes first steps for wellbeing. Last word to you if you want to add anything. I still owe Sukin 4 posts, so if I get into any debate about the AS approach it will be with him, I guess. Metta, Phil #77829 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:33 pm Subject: Re: Hello philofillet Hi Alyssa Welcome to the group. I'm always interested in hearing which suttas inspire people in a central way. I assume this is one for you. Could you tell those of us who don't understand Pali more about what this sutta means? Thanks! I think maybe sabbo is something like "all" (or is that sabba?) and "loko"has something to do with "worldly?" All adipitos are worldly all worldly things are padhupito all pajjalitos are worldly all worldly things are pakampito. (?) That's my guess. And I know my pajjalitos are *very* worldly! :) Metta, Phil > "Sabbo adipito loko, > sabbo loko padhupito; > sabbo pajjalito loko, > sabbo loko pakampito. > > Akampitam apajjalitam, > aputhujjana-sevitam, > agati yatha marassa, > tatha me nirato mano." > --Upacala Sutta, > Samyutta Nikaya, V. 7. > > I see there are serious students of the dhamma here. I am grateful to > have found my way here. > > Best wishes, > > Alyssa Ryvers > Composer | Compositeur > Music North Inc. > > www.musicnorth.com > #77830 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dr han tun, sarah and nina buddhistmedi... Hi Herman, - I am glad that you were not kidding about "the difference between a dr and an upasika". > H: > I knew that dr is short for doctor, but I still do not know why a > doctor should get a mention separate from an upasika. I understand > that different cultures are very big on social stratification and > differentiation, but is that at all connected to anything the Buddha > taught, apart from realising the suffering inherent in comparisons of all sorts? > > Herman MCFG PLD 67i.v (second level) :-) > Good point, Venerable Dr Herman MCFG PLD 67i.v (second level). I am also puzzled by the big deal some Buddhists make out of their titles and educational achievements (among other things). But even learned Buddhist monks, sometimes, are not able to let go of their ranks, educational degrees, and title. For example : Venerable Dr. Maha Thera Vimuttipanna, Abbot of the MahaDhammaSukaWanaram, PhD, MPhil. (The above name is fictitious.) Tep === #77831 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. - to Sukin buddhistmedi... Hello Elaine, - I am sympathizing with you. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Elaine wrote: > > Hi Sukin, > > I don't understand a single that you wrote, I am dumb. I also wasn't taught Buddhism the same way you were. If you find that it works for you, it's good. Be a good abhidhammist. > > Warm regards, > Elaine > T: Count me in as another person who does not understand Sukin's theories. I must be dumb too. Tep === #77832 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dr han tun, sarah and nina dcwijeratna Dear Tep, A quick one. This refers to the following e-m of yours. ==================================== "Hi Herman, - I am glad that you were not kidding about "the difference between a dr and an upasika". Venerable Dr. Maha Thera Vimuttipanna, Abbot of the MahaDhammaSukaWanar am, PhD, MPhil. (The above name is fictitious.) Tep" ============================================ This is how I understand it as a normal human being. When you say "Sangha.m sarana.m gacchaami". We refer to the sangha described by: "supa.tipanno bhagavato saavakasangho...anuttara.m pu~n~nakkheta.m lokassaa'ti". Say Sangha1 Then there is the monastic institution of the Sangha, which is no different from the any other human organization. Think of the catholic church and do some coparison. (Sangha 2) Most members of this variety, Sangha 2, has nothing to do with the first variety. For Sangha 1, the fundamental characteristic is they should be 'pabbajito'. They have given up all household life. Left home-for-homelessness. What it means is really all attachment to everything that you were attached to as a householder. Wife, children, relatives, home, lands, gold, jewellery and all your titles and other signs as that you were attached to as a householder. To be in this category a bhikkhu has to observe the paa.timokkha sa.mvara siila. The standard is: 'Anumattesu vajjesu bhayadassaavii' 'Seeing danger in the slightest fault' The best translation, I think, of anumatta is not even an atom or a molecule. Sangha 2, Started as Sangha 1, But changed very fast into into an ordinary human institution. It started during the Buddha's time. That is why the Buddha introduced the Vinaya rules. The second Council in Vessalii gives ample evidence of this. Today members of Sangha II are 'householders'. They own 'temples'; they have positions etc. Hold government positions etc. [May be some of them still do not get involved with maithuna-sexual intercourse]. "Sabbe sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa'ti." This whole discussion started with somebody calling himself dr. That immediately brought to my mind a person who is conceited, vainglorious and and person who has nothing to do with the ideals of Dhamma. For me, as a 'gihii kaamabhogii' the highest I can aspire to be is 'upaasaka', a lay-disciple of the Buddha. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna P.S. According to people who have studied the history of the development of the Sangha, the "Abhidhamma Pi.taka" is the creation of these monks--but not Abhidhamma. #77833 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. gazita2002 Hello DC, and Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > >Azita: I know very little Pali, but whichever way it is understood > either from one citta to the next or the actual durration of a > citta, both meanings involve xtremely rapid changes. > DC: There is a world of difference between the two. Azita: How so, DC can you explain what you mean please. > > >Azita: Salayatanasamyatta 27. Full Understanding; > > " Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the > Is that not 'citta experiencing' something? > DC: No, citta is a causla process. It arises depending on the conditions. The directly knowing here refers to higher-knowing. It is for the ariyans. Azita. Somehow UR changing the meaning of what I wrote :-/ Earlier you wanted some reference to show that the Buddha did teach about "cittas that experience". I agree, cittas do arise depending on conditions, they arise, experience an object be it a reality [paramattha dhamma] or a concept [pannatti] and then they fall away. This can occur in a process [citta-vitthe] as Tep pointed out. Then each citta in that process has the same object eg. visible object/color/form. Remember tho, only one citta at a time, there can never be 2 cittas arising together. The point I want to make is that this is occuring now. If ther were no citta, no process of cittas, then there would be no experiencing flavour, sound, visible object, tactile objects, odours, or mind objects. There is no you/me that experiences - it is citta. I agree, the 'directly knowing' is higher knowiing. It is panna cetasika, but even that arises along with citta. Cetasikas cannot arise without citta. > > >I'm sorry DC I cannot see any sense in what ur saying. Why would I > obseve the 5 precepts if I didnt understand what that really meant. > DC: My understanding that you can't get even to the first base without that. Azita: what is this first base? BTW. are you from Sri Lanka and what does DC stand for? thanks. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #77834 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dr han tun, sarah and nina buddhistmedi... Hi friend DC, - What you just wrote is a Sanghaanussati -- it gives me gladness (paamojja). Thank you very much. > DC: > When you say "Sangha.m sarana.m gacchaami". We refer to the sangha described by: > "supa.tipanno bhagavato saavakasangho...anuttara.m pu~n~nakkheta.m lokassaa'ti". Say Sangha1 > > For Sangha 1, the fundamental characteristic is they should be 'pabbajito'. They have given up all household life. Left home-for- homelessness. What it means is really all attachment to everything that you were attached to as a householder. Wife, children, relatives, home, lands, gold, jewellery and all your titles and other signs as that you were attached to as a householder. To be in this category a bhikkhu has to observe the paa.timokkha sa.mvara siila. The standard is: 'Anumattesu vajjesu bhayadassaavii' 'Seeing danger in the slightest fault' The best translation, I think, of anumatta is not even an atom or a molecule. ........................................ T: Twent years ago I was very seriously considering "becoming homeless", and started to look around for a sangha community that I could stay with till the rest of my life. After a few years of searching, I could find only one place, but the no monks there wanted to have me! > DC: P.S. According to people who have studied the history of the development of the Sangha, the "Abhidhamma Pi.taka" is the creation of these monks--but not Abhidhamma. > T: Why so, DC? How about the Patisambhidamagga ? Tep === #77835 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dr han tun, sarah and nina upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 10/30/2007 8:37:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Venerable Dr. Maha Thera Vimuttipanna, Abbot of the MahaDhammaSukaWanaram, PhD, MPhil. (The above name is fictitious.) ================================ LOLOL! That is very amusing! I've actually seen such, more than once. Lots of "no self", huh? ;-))) With metta, Howard #77836 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some basic Sutta&Abhidhamma questions. sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Alex), Thx to Alex for raising good topics and to you both for the discussions. --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Alex, > > I continue: > > 5) MN43: > > "Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not > disjoined. <...> > The commentary (Note 436): MA: "Wisdom has been excluded from this > exchange because the intention is to show only the states that are > conjoined on every occasion of consciousness." > > Scott: So, the passage is referring to the sabbacittasaadhaara.na - > the Universals - 'only the states that are conjoined on every occasion > of consciousness'. The passage also seems to be referring to > > In particular reference is to vedanaa-cetasika and sa~n~naa-cetasika. > This seems to be providing support for the Abhidhamma-based > clarifications regarding mental factors conascently arising with > consciousness ('vin~n~aa.na.m'). This is to say that they cannot > arise separately the one from the other. Also, the passage refers to > the fact, also supporting Abhidhamma, that all have the same object > ('For what one feels, that one perceives; and what one perceives that > one cognizes'). > > Corrections welcome, please. .... S: I cut part, but actually all your comments were spot on in my view. No corrections from me! This is an excellent example of a sutta that is inevitably badly misunderstood without some basic Abhidhamma understanding as you indicate. Metta, Sarah ======== #77837 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:02 am Subject: Psychological and Bodily Continuity - Gethin and Questions? christine_fo... Hello all, While in India, I caught up on some reading. One of my favourite books is "The Foundations of Buddhism" by Rupert Gethin. On this reading, what leapt out was a section on The Abhidharma entitled 'Some Abhidharma problems' (pp.218-223). "The rigorous Abhidharma analysis of the mind and body in terms of linear series of momentary dharmas arising and ceasing in every moment meant that Buddhist thought was required to give an equally rigorous intellectual account of the processes that govern psychological and bodily continuity. For example, I can remember past events, but if the dharmas that constituted those events no longer exist, what is it that I remember? More significantly, how can something that no longer exists have an effect on the present? Buddhist practice is based on the fact thtat actions have various kinds of results. Wholesome and unwholesome actions lead to pleasant and unpleasant results in the future - sometimes in far distant future lives. Yet how can an action performed many lifetimes ago suddenly have an effect now? Moreover, according to Buddhist thought, actions are habitforming, creating tendencies in the mind. Yet if actions begin and cease in every moment how do these tendencies accumulate, how do we learn to do things? And how is it that an acquired skill like swimming or speaking a language can be retained when it is not used, even for many years? And crucially, where is the potentiality for anger when it it not active? Suppose that I am sitting peacefully experiencing thoughts of generosity and friendliness towards the world. At that time, according to the Abhidhamma, there is no occurrence of thoughts motivated by greed, aversion, or delusion, but only of thoughts motivated by non-attachement, friendliness, and wisdom; therefore my mental state should not be distinguishable from an arhat's or even a Buddha's. Yet if Maara should send his armies against me or if his daughters should appear before me, it would probably not be long before a state of fear or hatred or desire arose in me. So here is the difference: in me there is the potentiality for greed, hatred, and delusion that is not found in a Buddha or arhat. But how does the potentiality for unwholesome thought suddenly emerge from wholesome thoughts, and how do wholesome dharmas operate as a condition for unwholesome dharmas?" "The Foundations of Buddhism" Rupert Gethin. Oxford University Press. ISBN-0-19-289223-1. Any thoughts or answers? metta Chris --The trouble is that you think you have time--- #77838 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: S's e-card from Bkk 2 sarahprocter... Dear Tep (Scott, Han & all), --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Dear Sarah, - > > I appreciate your effort in asking Khun Sujin about 'samadhi-nimitta'. I > > hope you may elaborate a bit more on her reply, because it does not yet > ring the bell for me. .... S: I'm not sure I can add more. It was a very brief comment made by KS. As I understand it, the topic of discussion in the sutta in context is samadhi and therefore it is samadhi nimitta (as opposed to any other nimitta) which is referred to. Only through the development of satipatthana can the nature of reality itself be known and in this way, the distinction between the dhamma and the nimitta of dhamma is apparent. If we think about the fire-stick and circle/image of fire, it's clear that the image is not the fire. Until the arising and falling away of realities is known (at the third stage of insight), it is actually the shadow or image or nimitta which is known. ***** On another difficult point we were all discussing with regard to MN 152 and the Psm on the ariya iddhi and the perceiving of the unrepulsive in the repulsive, I asked for KS's comment on this too. Again (as is usual with rather technical qus), I got a very brief response which we can consider. She stressed that even for an arahant there are moments with and without panna and repeated this. Even though there is no more vipallasa which takes the foul for beautiful, things are still seen as normal. For example, a rotten apple is still a rotten apple and a good apple is still a good apple. (My example). When I started to read out the lines quoted (#75699) from the sutta: "And how, Ananda, is one a noble one with developed faculties? If he should wish....", she stopped me each time to stress that "if he should wish" is wrong, not a good translation. Whatever we read, whatever is said, all dhammas are conditioned. It's not a matter of 'wishing' and certain dhammas arising! Anatta!! Back to you guys on this for any further comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Sometimes I pick up more later when I listen to the recordings. Any comments to date are just from my memory. ======== #77839 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dhamma questions sarahprocter... Dear Manish (& Han*), --- vipassana_infonet wrote: > thanks sarah. I got it clear. here are my views on sanna again (from a > website). I hope you agree. I should have said - > sanna = samyutta-ñana = conditioned knowledge. > please correct me, if I am wrong. .... S: Sorry, this doesn't make sense to me. Sanna is a universal cetasika which arises with every citta, including those with and without panna (i.e ~naana or knowledge). .... > > "perception" or "cognition" (Skt. samjñā, Pāli saññā): > registers > whether an object is recognized or not (for instance, the sound of a > bell or the shape of a tree). From samyutta-ñana, conditioned > knowledge. ... S: Again, you've lost me. Sanna arises regardless of whether there is any knowledge. For example, at this moment of seeing or hearing, sanna arises. Knowledge cannot arise at such moments and sanna is not conditioned from knowledge. .... >It is ordinarily conditioned by ones past sankhara, and > therefore conveys a coloured image of reality. ... S: All dhammas (other than nibbana) are sankhara dhammas. Sanna merely marks and remembers the object, whether a reality or concept. It doesn't convey a 'coloured image of reality'. .... >In the practice of > vipassana, sañña is changed into pañña, the understanding of reality > as it is. ... S: Sorry, but no, sanna can never be changed into panna. I'm not sure where you get these ideas. .... >It becomes anicca-sañña, dukkha-sañña, anatta-sañña, > asubha-sañña--that is, the perception of impermanence, suffering, > egolessness, and of the illusory nature of physical beauty. ... S: In these examples, sanna accompanies insights or wisdom. However, it is not changed into panna. Here, panna is implied. In short, sanna can be kusala (as in your examples), akusala, vipaka or kiriya. In all examples, it has its own characterisitic and function, different from other cetasikas (such as panna) or the citta it accompanies. Let me know if this is not clear. [Han, thanks for your kind explanatory note about the other qus. Now, it's clear. We thought we might have missed them on our travels. Manish also sent his questions to the list and off-list to Nina, myself and others. Nina and I were trying to encourage him to send the qus and answers here for all to benefit from. Perhaps he'll give you permission to share your responses or do so himself:-))] Metta, Sarah ======= #77840 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychological and Bodily Continuity - Gethin and Questions? sarahprocter... Hi Chris, I laughed when I read your greeting to Herman! Also thought of your return to Brisbane on Monday when we saw the news of the cyclone hitting the area. What a welcome home! (We only just made our connecting flight....last to board, I think!) Any special impressions from the trip - places, discussion points or anything else??? --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Hello all, > > While in India, I caught up on some reading. One of my favourite > books is "The Foundations of Buddhism" by Rupert Gethin. On this > reading, what leapt out was a section on The Abhidharma > entitled 'Some Abhidharma problems' (pp.218-223). .... S: Thx for posting this extract. We have his book 'The Buddhist Path to Awakening', but not this one. I'm sure that he gives most the qus rhetorically, but let me add a few brief responses which can be discussed in more detail if you or others wish. Han or others may help by elaborating. I'll number them for clarity, leaving aside a few of his comments which could also be discussed further. 1. > For example, I can remember past events, but if the dharmas that > constituted those events no longer exist, what is it that I > remember? ... S: Concepts or ideas about them. (No 'I' to remember of course...sanna which remembers....) ... 2.>More significantly, how can something that no longer > exists have an effect on the present? ... S: By a combination of conditions, most notably, natural decisive support condition. ... 3.>Yet how can an action performed many lifetimes ago > suddenly have an effect now? ... S: By kamma condition. ..... 4.> Moreover, according to Buddhist thought, actions are habitforming, > creating tendencies in the mind. Yet if actions begin and cease in > every moment how do these tendencies accumulate, how do we learn to > do things? .... S: Again, by conditions. Kamma accumulates by way of nat. decisive support condition. No 'we' to learn anything, of course! .... 5.>And how is it that an acquired skill like swimming or > speaking a language can be retained when it is not used, even for > many years? ... S: Sanna remembers and marks the objects. .... 6.> And crucially, where is the potentiality for anger when it it not > active? ... S: The anusaya, latent tendency lies dormant in each citta until eradicated. ... 7.> But how does the potentiality for unwholesome thought suddenly > emerge from wholesome thoughts, ... S: I wouldn't put it like this. The unwholesome thought has completely gone when the wholesome thoughts arise, again by natural decisive support and other conditions. ... 8: >and how do wholesome dharmas operate > as a condition for unwholesome dharmas?" ... S: Same answer. Natural decisive and other conditions. Without the anusaya (tendency), no unwholesome dhammas. .... > "The Foundations of Buddhism" Rupert Gethin. Oxford University > Press. ISBN-0-19-289223-1. > > Any thoughts or answers? .... S: Do you have any further comments of your own, Chris or anyone else? When the Abhidhamma is seen less as a text and more as the present dhammas now without any self involved, I think it's a lot easier to understand these points. Does R.Gethin add his own answers? Metta, Sarah ====== #77841 From: "tom" Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:11 pm Subject: Atmananda on freedom zorroelbueno 106. WHEN ARE YOU FREE? (69) When the thought that you are Atma, the Reality, becomes as strong as your present thought that you are the body, then alone are you free. tom #77842 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:52 am Subject: Origin of Suffering! bhikkhu0 Friends: Craving as the Origin of Suffering accumulates Kamma! Wherever there is craving, may also arise envy, jealousy, anger, hate, and many other evil selfish states causing much suffering and misery! All these impulsive actions and their painful fruitions long time after, are ultimately rooted in blindness, neglect and ignorance (avijjÄ� )... The Second Noble Truth: Craving also explains the cause of the many seeming social injustices both in society & in nature, by insisting on that nothing in this world can come into existence without a cause... All beings destiny and quality of life are caused by their own latent tendencies in an endless sequence of former states of existence... These causes are past action or activities (kamma, Sanskrit: karma) produced by body, speech, & mind. It is thus this 3-fold action that determines the character & destiny of all beings and not injustice! More exactly defined, kamma denotes those good & evil intentions which causes rebirth & shapes future destinies. The process of ever new becoming (bhava) consists therefore of an active & conditioning kamma creation (kamma-bhava), and its result: Renewed Rebirth... By 'rebirth' is here meant both the 'rebirth' of the next moment of consciousness and the next birth into a new existence after death! Here, too, when considering kamma, one must not lose sight of the utterly impersonal nature (anattatÄ�) of this process of becoming!!! As in the case of a storm-swept sea, it is not an identical wave that hastens over the surface of the ocean, but it is the rising & falling of quite different masses of water... In quite same way should it be understood, that there are no real 'ego-entities' hastening through this ocean of rebirth, but merely 'life'-waves, arising and ceasing, which, according to their good and evil nature manifest themselves here as humans, there as animals, and elsewhere as invisible beings! Once more it may be emphasized here that, correctly speaking, the term kamma=karma signifies only the intentional action itself, & does not include this action's later effects & results (vipÄ�ka)... The Blessed Buddha once said: There will come a time when the mighty oceans will dry up, vanish, and exist no more (like on mars!)... There will come a time when the mighty earth will be devoured by fire, perish, and cease to exist... But yet there will be no end to the suffering of sentient beings, who blinded & obstructed by ignorance and ensnared by craving, are hurrying & hastening through this round of rebirths. SN 22:99 Source: (edited excerpts): Venerable Nyanatiloka MahÄ�thera. The Word of the Buddha: http://www.pariyatti.com/book_404201.html ... Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * #77843 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychological and Bodily Continuity - Gethin and Questions? dcwijeratna Hello all, Christine Forsyth says: >>> "While in India, I caught up on some reading. One of my favourite books is "The Foundations of Buddhism" by Rupert Gethin. On this reading, what leapt out was a section on The Abhidharma entitled 'Some Abhidharma problems' (pp.218-223) ."<<< After reproducing the section, the following request appears: "Any thoughts or answers?" The section is 'Some Abhidhamma problems'. The name of the book is "The Foundations of Buddhism". 1. It is well-known that Abhidhamma was an attempt to explain the Dhamma. Therefore, it has to be subsequent to Dhamma or the Teaching of the Buddha. The Foundation of this teaching is the Enlightenment of the Buddha and nothing else. "pubbe ananussutesu dhammesu cakkhu.m udapaadi..." The "Buddhism" that Gethin, in all probablity, refers to Theravada Abhidhamma philosophy. ========================================= 2. The Abhidharma problems, Gethin refers has been marked and numbered below for ease of reference. "The rigorous Abhidharma analysis of the mind and body in terms of linear series of momentary dharmas arising and ceasing in every moment meant that Buddhist thought was required to give an equally rigorous intellectual account of the processes that govern psychological and bodily continuity." DSGM: Mind and body or mind-body? For example, I can remember past events, but if the dharmas that constituted those events no longer exist, what is it that I remember? Q1: "More significantly, how can something that no longer exists have an effect on the present?" Buddhist practice is based on the fact thtat actions have various kinds of results. Wholesome and unwholesome actions lead to pleasant and unpleasant results in the future - sometimes in far distant future lives. Q2: Yet how can an action performed many lifetimes ago suddenly have an effect now? Moreover, according to Buddhist thought, actions are habitforming, creating tendencies in the mind. Q3: Yet if actions begin and cease in every moment how do these tendencies accumulate, how do we learn to do things? Q4: And how is it that an acquired skill like swimming or speaking a language can be retained when it is not used, even for many years? Q5: And crucially, where is the potentiality for anger when it it not active? Suppose that I am sitting peacefully experiencing thoughts of generosity and friendliness towards the world. At that time, according to the Abhidhamma, there is no occurrence of thoughts motivated by greed, aversion, or delusion, but only of thoughts motivated by non-attachement, friendliness, and wisdom; therefore my mental state should not be distinguishable from an arhat's or even a Buddha's. Yet if Maara should send his armies against me or if his daughters should appear before me, it would probably not be long before a state of fear or hatred or desire arose in me. So here is the difference: in me there is the potentiality for greed, hatred, and delusion that is not found in a Buddha or arhat. Q5: But how does the potentiality for unwholesome thought suddenly emerge from wholesome thoughts, and how do wholesome dharmas operate as a condition for unwholesome dharmas?" ............................. DSGM: Gethin has clearly explaind the issues. The questions appear to be mere rhetoric. Conclusion: The theory of momentariness (khanavaada) fails to explain the continuity of the human being. One discordant note is the reference to "Buddhist practice" [after Q1]. I have no personal knowledge of any "Buddhist practicitioner" who has been in the least influenced by the theory of momentariness. >Chris--The trouble is that you think you have time---But don't hurry. We have DSGM: But don't hurry. We have a long way to go. Haste makes waste. DSGMember #77844 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. scottduncan2 Dear Howard, H: "...It seems to me that recollecting the harmfulness of impatience, thinking about it, and thinking about the usefulness of being patient serves as a prompt and helps train the mind towards diminishing of impatience and increase in patience." Me: "The above suggests that the thinking about patience can make it come. The mind cannot be trained by thinking about training it and adopting techniques to train it. Patience develops as it does by conditions and never by someone deciding to 'be more patient'." H: "...there is frequently emphasized...the...importance of reading and considering the Dhamma. I strongly agree with that emphasis. The akusala nature of impatience is part of the Dhamma, and contemplating the harm in it and the usefulness of patience is, indeed, considering the Dhamma..." Scott: Yes, this is true but one need not mistake this reading and considering the Dhamma as something one can do as a 'practise' in order to cause mental development. Patience will not arise just because one knows conceptually what patience is according to Dhamma. Right View is a function of pa~n~naa, as far as I understand. Pa~n~naa doesn't read. Sincerely, Scott. #77845 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dr han tun, sarah and nina buddhistmedi... Hi Howard, >Howard: > LOLOL! That is very amusing! I've actually seen such, more than once. > Lots of "no self", huh? ;-))) > T: Yeah, it is amusing to me too. I guess it is harder to see 'no self' in the world of beings than in the world of pure dhammas. Tep ==== #77846 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:15 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (70) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 1 of 17 13. Viisatinipaato XIII. The Section of the Groups of Twenty [Verses] 5. Subhaakammaaradhiitutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 5. The commentary on the verses of Therii Subhaa, the Smith's Daughter txt: Daharaahanti-aadikaa subhaaya kammaaradhiitaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii anukkamena sambhaavitakusalamuulaa upacitavimokkhasambhaaraa sugatiisuyeva sa.msarantii paripakka~naa.naa hutvaa Pruitt: The verses beginning I was young are Therii Subhaa the Smith's Daughter's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. In due course she produced the foundation of good [deeds], accumulated the requisites for liberation, journeying on only in happy existences, and had matured knowledge. txt: imasmi.m buddhuppaade raajagahe a~n~natarassa suva.n.nakaarassa dhiitaa hutvaa nibbatti, ruupasampattisobhaaya subhaati tassaa naama.m ahosi. Saa anukkamena vi~n~nuta.m patvaa, satthu raajagahappavesane satthari sa~njaatappasaadaa ekadivasa.m bhagavanta.m upasa"nkamitvaa vanditvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. Satthaa tassaa indriyaparipaaka.m disvaa ajjhaasayaanuruupa.m catusaccagabbhadhamma.m desesi. Saa taavadeva sahassanayapa.tima.n.dite sotaapattiphale pati.t.thaasi. Pruitt: In this Buddha era, she was born as the daughter of a certain gold-smilth in Raajagaha. Because of the perfection of her beauty, she was named Subhaa {"Beautiful). In due course she came of age, and when the Teacher went into Raajagaha, faith in the Teacher arose in her. One day she approached the Blessed One, paid homage, and sat down on one side. The Teacher, seeing the maturing of her sense faculties, taught her the Doctrine containing the four [noble] truths according to her mental disposition. She was immediately established in the fruition state of Stream-Entry that is adorned with a thousand methods. RD: She, too, having made her resolve under former Buddhas, and heaping up good of age-enduring efficacy, so that she had progressively planted the root of good and accumulated the conditions of emancipation, was, in this Buddha-era, reborn at Raajagaha as the daughter of a certain goldsmith. From the beauty of her person she was called Subhaa. Come to years of discretion, she went one day, while the Master was at Raajagaha, and belief in him had come to her, and did obeisance, seating herself on one side. The Master, seeing the maturity of her moral faculties, and in accordance with her wish, taught her the Norm enshrined in the Four Truths. She was thereby established in the fruition of Stream-entry, which is in countless ways adorned. txt: Saa aparabhaage gharaavaase dosa.m disvaa mahaapajaapatiyaa gotamiyaa santike pabbajitvaa bhikkhunisiile pati.t.thitaa uparimaggatthaaya bhaavanamanuyu~nji. Ta.m ~naatakaa kaalena kaala.m upasa"nkamitvaa kaamehi nimantentaa pahuutadhana.m vibhavajaata~nca dassetvaa palobhenti. Saa ekadivasa.m attano santika.m upagataana.m gharaavaasesu kaamesu ca aadiinava.m pakaasentii "daharaahan"ti-aadiihi catuviisatiyaa gaathaahi dhamma.m kathetvaa te niraase katvaa vissajjetvaa vipassanaaya kamma.m karontii indriyaani pariyodapentii bhaavana.m ussukkaapetvaa na cirasseva saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. Pruitt: Afterwards, she saw the fault[s] of household life and went forth in the presence of Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii. With the support of the virtuous conduct of a bhikkhunii, she was diligent in mental development for the sake of the higher paths. Her relatives approached her from time to time, enticing her with sensual pleasures and showing her abundant wealth and prosperity to seduce her. One day, she explained the danger of household life and sensual pleasures to those who approached her by explaining the Doctrine through the twenty-four verses beginning I was young. Freeing them from desire, she sent them away, she devoted herself to the gaining of insight. Purifying her sense faculties, she eagerly practised mental development, and in a very short time, she attained the state of Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. RD: Later she realized the disadvantages of domestic life, and entered the Order under the Great Pajaapatii the Gotamid, devoting herself to the higher Paths. From time to time her relations invited her to return to the world, urging its charms. To them thus come one day, she set forth the danger in house-life and in the world, preaching the Norm in the twenty-four verses below, and dismissed them cured of their desire. She then strove for insight, purifying her faculties, till at length she won Arahantship. === beginning with the next installment, the verse numbering will be off by 2. peace, connie #77847 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. scottduncan2 Dear Elaine, Elaine: "...These conditions that you talk about, is it the 'ultimate conditions' or is it a 'conventional conditions'?" Scott: I refer in general to the 24 conditions set out in the Pa.t.thaana. They are in reference to ultimate realities. I know of no 'conventional conditions', but I see you give an example below: E: "...For example, if I am waiting for the bus and the bus is late, I'd get impatient. The condition that made me impatient was, the bus was late. Is this the type of condition that you talk about? Or are you talking about some cetasikas in the mind coming together and forming a set of conditions for impatience to arise?..." Scott: Conditionality, in my opinion, deals with the 'dynamics' of dhammas (ultimate realities) not concepts such as 'I am waiting' or 'bus' or 'late'. E: "...My opinion is, when impatience arises in the mind, conventionally speaking, I would try to be 'aware' of it, watch it and not react to it. If I am 'aware' of the impatience arising, and 'catch' it fast enough, hopefully it will get toned-down and disappear." Scott: The above is not what I am referring to. The above is, in my opinion, a form of pop-psychology. It is centred in the belief that one 'should try' a hope to 'catch' something and this has already missed the point. E: "...For example anger, if I am not aware of anger arising, this anger will explode like an atomic bomb and objects will start flying all over the house (hahah, I'm exaggerating). A person who is not mindful, s/he cannot control his/her anger, if a person is very "mindful", then the anger can be 'umm, slightly controlled' because it will get toned-down and it will disappear quickly." Scott: Yeah, don't blow up your house. I don't think it works this way, though. This is a set of ideas about concepts. Sati and pa~n~naa, for example, perform functions which can serve as condition for the non-arising of dosa. E: "...When I get angry or impatient, no matter how much I try to convince myself that 'I' am not angry, it doesn't work. It works better when I am able to watch this anger go by in the mind (it is tough, very tough to do so)." Scott: This is in part what I was suggesting: pop-psychology is of no use. 'Watching anger go by' is not done by 'you' or 'me'. E: "...This "watching" is a type of mind training (the satipatthana type of training). When a person becomes an expert in this watching, 'the moment anger arises', s/he would be able to identify it immediately and the anger will disappear quickly." Scott: There is no person who becomes expert. This is only about thedevelopment of mental factors. The rest is magical thinking. E: "...I like Kusala Sutta, it is a good one, it says wholesomeness can be developed and unwholesomeness can be abandoned. I think for these to develop, the mind have to be trained." Scott: Kusala develops but I don't think you understand 'mind' in the same way that I do. No one can train a mind but someone can train a dog. E: "Scott, you are right, when you say impatience is impersonal, but have you actually felt or experienced the impersonal nature of impatience?" Scott: Yes. Haven't you? E: "I think we have to train our mind to be patience and not wait for the conditions to arise. Maybe this training is a mind-training to 'identify the conditions that are necessary' for patience to arise. That's why we have to do meditation to cleanse our mind from greed, hatred and delusion?" Scott: Well, I think you are misunderstanding things, when you say this. It is impossible to 'not wait for conditions to arise'. We no more have to 'do meditation' than fly to the moon. No, seriously, this sort of statement is a misunderstanding of the meaning of bhaavanaa. E: "Scott, please explain how these "conditions" work?" Scott: I don't have enough knowledge to do this but we could set up a Conditions Corner and slowly study conditionality, maybe for a few lifetimes. And also, the real 'study', in the moment-to-moment of the here-and-now, might begin to show conditions at work, as it were. Sincerely, Scott. #77848 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:51 am Subject: Computer problem hantun1 Dear Sarah and All, My computer is giving trouble again. It gets very difficult to start. I will continue using it for as long as possible. But I think I will have to take the CPU to the repair shop pretty soon. If I stop posting, please take it that the CPU has been taken to the repair shop. Respectfully, Han #77849 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychological and Bodily Continuity - Gethin and Questions? upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 10/31/2007 3:02:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Hello all, While in India, I caught up on some reading. One of my favourite books is "The Foundations of Buddhism" by Rupert Gethin. On this reading, what leapt out was a section on The Abhidharma entitled 'Some Abhidharma problems' (pp.218-223). "The rigorous Abhidharma analysis of the mind and body in terms of linear series of momentary dharmas arising and ceasing in every moment meant that Buddhist thought was required to give an equally rigorous intellectual account of the processes that govern psychological and bodily continuity. For example, I can remember past events, but if the dharmas that constituted those events no longer exist, what is it that I remember? More significantly, how can something that no longer exists have an effect on the present? Buddhist practice is based on the fact thtat actions have various kinds of results. Wholesome and unwholesome actions lead to pleasant and unpleasant results in the future - sometimes in far distant future lives. Yet how can an action performed many lifetimes ago suddenly have an effect now? Moreover, according to Buddhist thought, actions are habitforming, creating tendencies in the mind. Yet if actions begin and cease in every moment how do these tendencies accumulate, how do we learn to do things? And how is it that an acquired skill like swimming or speaking a language can be retained when it is not used, even for many years? And crucially, where is the potentiality for anger when it it not active? Suppose that I am sitting peacefully experiencing thoughts of generosity and friendliness towards the world. At that time, according to the Abhidhamma, there is no occurrence of thoughts motivated by greed, aversion, or delusion, but only of thoughts motivated by non-attachement, friendliness, and wisdom; therefore my mental state should not be distinguishable from an arhat's or even a Buddha's. Yet if Maara should send his armies against me or if his daughters should appear before me, it would probably not be long before a state of fear or hatred or desire arose in me. So here is the difference: in me there is the potentiality for greed, hatred, and delusion that is not found in a Buddha or arhat. But how does the potentiality for unwholesome thought suddenly emerge from wholesome thoughts, and how do wholesome dharmas operate as a condition for unwholesome dharmas?" "The Foundations of Buddhism" Rupert Gethin. Oxford University Press. ISBN-0-19-289223-1. Any thoughts or answers? metta Chris ========================================= I've actually discussed before this business of contiguity day-to-day macroscopic experience of such things as pushing or pulling of physical objects. Also we are influenced by a substantialist perspective that requires literal, mechanistic propagation and accumulation of "stuff". But even quantum mechanics countenances "action at a distance." I do not believe that Buddhist conditionality requires substantialist propagation at all. It is merely a matter of "this being, that is", and "should this be, that will be". Kamma, for example, is effective the moment it occurs. It is immediately a promissory note. Right then and there, at the moment of its occurrence, it is already a primary condition for future vipaka, with the result awaiting only the eventual occurrence of all the other supportive conditions required for its arising. When all the conditions for a given resulting phenomenon to occur have themselves finally arisen, that phenomenon occurs ... period. It is this/that conditionality, with no substantialist underpinnings. I believe such a perspective on conditionality is often confused with our ordinary substantialist views on causality, but it is quite different and shockingly "strange" as considered from our usual perspective. It requires a real effort, I think, to wrap one's mind around it - mainly an effort to let go of an ingrained conventional perspective. As I see it, the terminology of "accumulations" is just that: a terminlogy. The reality it refers to is a set of conditions that have occurred, and which, by having occurred, already "incline one" in a certain direction - that is condition reactions of a certain sort. There are no literal paramattha dhammas in any list that are "accumulations". With metta, Howard #77850 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychological and Bodily Continuity - Gethin and Questions? upasaka_howard Hi again, Chris (and all) - In a message dated 10/31/2007 9:02:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... seems to lead off with: I've actually discussed before this business of contiguity day-to-day macroscopic experience of such things as pushing or pulling of physical objects. ================================= This lead pseudo-sentence got fouled up somehow - it's not what I intended. What I tried to write was the following: "I've actually discussed before this business of contiguity allegedly being required for conditionality to work. This perspective is an erroneous one based in part on day-to-day macroscopic experience of such things as pushing or pulling of physical objects." Sorry for the foul up. With metta, Howard #77851 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:22 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World dacostacharles To all, If there is no such thing as Self, then what experiences? What suffers? In samara, it is the self, or ego, that suffers, is deluded, experiences life. This is partly why the concept of Ultimate Truth is an illusion! Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 16:19 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World Hello all. I was thinking about the issue of anatta, and dhamma-anatta. Not- self and "the world". It is interesting that it is only in later literature where it says that Buddha taught the selflessness of self only. <...> #77852 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:47 am Subject: Re: Response to DC Part 1. - to Sukin sukinderpal Hi Elaine, > I don't understand a single that you wrote, I am dumb. I also wasn't taught Buddhism the same way you were. If you find that it works for you, it's good. Be a good abhidhammist. I just reread my last two posts to you and realized that it wasn't for someone who is not used to Abhidhamma. You are probably one such person. So I guess you had reasons to feel the way you did. I'll try to remember this the next time I write to anyone. Regarding what may have been presumptuous of me in judging your experiences, I had assumed that you had read an earlier post of mine on the list saying that "I say it as I see it", and thought that you wouldn't mind the frankness. Again this, I'll try to take as a lesson for future communications. With metta, Sukin. #77853 From: "Alyssa Ryvers" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:02 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World aryvers Charles DaCosta wrote: "In samara, it is the self, or ego, that suffers, is deluded, experiences life." Charles: From my perspective, granted the limited basis of my answer considering that I have joined this discussion group yesterday afternoon: I wonder if you are implying that it is exclusively the ego which suffers in Samsara? I would say that the ego can suffer in this human form, but the body and mind can suffer exclusively as well. Perhaps someone else will address the issue of whether the ego takes part in all rebirths on the other planes of existence which constitute samsara. Letting go of the attachment to these three are profound in that the attachment to my ego can be rather sweet, my body I respect, and my mind I appreciate and trust as well. Best wishes, Alyssa Ryvers Composer | Compositeur Music North Inc. www.musicnorth.com #77854 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychological and Bodily Continuity - Gethin and Questions? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > ========================================= Also we are influenced by a substantialist perspective that requires literal, mechanistic propagation and accumulation of "stuff". But even quantum mechanics countenances "action at a distance." > I do not believe that Buddhist conditionality requires substantialist propagation at all. It is merely a matter of "this being, that is", and "should >>> I agree. There is no svabhava in a person or in the elements of experience. >>> > this be, that will be". Kamma, for example, is effective the moment it occurs. It is immediately a promissory note. >>>> Nagarjuna is right in that regard. . There are no literal paramattha > dhammas in any list that are "accumulations". > > With metta, > Howard > >>>>>>> I agree 100%. Nowhere did the Buddha teach any "ultimate" realities. Even Nibbana isn't "an ultimate reality" even though it is the ultimate and unsurpassed peace and freedom - freedom even from any sort of ultimates (existence or non existence, both, neither). Lots of metta, Alex #77855 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > To all, > > > > If there is no such thing as Self, then what experiences? What suffers? >>>> "Feeling" feels suffering. There is no need to include any sort of metaphysical (unprovable in experience) entity behind experience. Experience (of suffering or bliss) is merely that, experience. >>>>>> > This is partly why the concept of Ultimate Truth is an illusion! >>>>>> Buddha taught Suffering and Cessation of all suffering. Purely pragmatic and verifiable things. Lots of Metta, Alex #77856 From: Elaine Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychological and Bodily Continuity - Gethin and Questions? shennieca Hello Sarah, all, When I read your post, I find the replies that you gave is too brief. Whevever there is a question about memory, you wrote the word "sanna" in your reply. How is a person supposed to understand "sanna", what is meant by "sanna", isn't it just a synonym for "memory"? If I exchange the word 'memory' for 'sanna', I am also an abhidhammist? Also, whenever there is a question about other things, you wrote the word "conditions" in your reply. How is a person supposed to understand the word "conditions"? What do you mean by conditions, what are the conditions? These short replies that you gave did not do justice to the deeper meaning of the questions. Or do you actually think that our consciousness is as simplified as the way that you have answered it? Can you please elaborate on them? Thank you. Sincerely, Elaine ----------------------------- #77857 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 10/31/2007 9:24:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: To all, If there is no such thing as Self, then what experiences? What suffers? In samara, it is the self, or ego, that suffers, is deluded, experiences life. This is partly why the concept of Ultimate Truth is an illusion! Charles DaCosta =============================== I would put the matter differently, Charles, as follows: In samsara, there is the seeming of a self that suffers, is deluded [though usually there is little awareness of being deluded], and experiences life, but that very seeming of self is delusive. In fact, within an as-yet-unawakened stream of phenomena, misperceptions, misunderstandings, cravings, aversions, attachments, and consequent suffering all arise, and this samsaric state of affairs continues at least to some extent until final and complete bodhi. With metta, Howard #77858 From: Elaine Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. shennieca Hello Scott, Thank you for your reply. I cannot reply to every statement that you made because the basic understanding and foundations of Buddhism that we both have, are totally different. The questions that I have asked and the replies that you gave is like me asking about an apple and you replying with an orange. But I just want to give my understanding of Bhavana. I hope other DSG members can tell me if it is right or wrong. Bhavana means mental culture or mental development and it is commonly translated as meditation. Meditation is not ‘imagination’ or ‘thinking’. Some people ask, is meditation some kind of hypnosis or hallucination? No, it is not. Vipassana Bhavana is a mental development that will eradicate the mental defilements *permanently* by removing the kilesa (defilements) from its roots. There is no other way to cleanse the mind apart from doing vipassana bhavana. No matter how well we understand the suttas, or read the abhidhamma, it is not enough. The sutta only tells us what the defilements are, i.e. greed, hatred and delusions, and the abhidhamma tells us about the 52 cetasikas and the 24 conditions, etc. etc. The basic understanding and knowledge that we get from the suttas and abhidhamma will *not* get rid of the kilesas because the roots are still embedded in our minds. Doing vipassana bhavana will *uproot* these kilesas bit by bit, and when the defilements are gone, it is gone forever because there are no more conditions for it to ever arise again. I don’t know ‘technically’ how this bhavana works, I think it is through knowing the nature of namarupa, by observing anicca and attaining all the steps of ~naana. I recommend reading Mahasi Sayadaw’s article on the progress of Insight (only an ariya will be able to verify it through their own experience). This is *not* getting answers from an abhidhamma book or listening to your teacher giving a dhamma talk. Even if you read Sayadaw's progress of insight, don't expect to get enlightened by reading it. Doing samatha bhavana (the tranquility-type meditation) will suppress the defilements temporarily, but the roots are still there. Monks have to do samatha-meditation because it can suppresses lustful thoughts from arising, but for lay-people it is not necessary to do samatha, but doing metta meditation (also a samatha-type bhavana) is encouraged. To me, Vipassana bhavana is like cleansing the mind and washing away the defilements for good (metaphorically). When there is no more greed, hatred, delusion ---it's bliss. But of course, Scott, this is not what your teacher is teaching you. You think that reading the Abhidhamma book will remove all your defilements and you’ll gain wisdom and get released from sufferings, only when the conditions are right. I like it when it is repeated so many times "only when the conditions are right". I have no idea how you identify when and where the right conditions come. How do you know when it has arisen, and by the way, there is no "you" to know it, so even when you have already known it, you still might not know it. And the method that you are using is only unique to a few people and I sincerely hope that your method and your teacher is right. Whatever I have written here is all I know about Bhavana. I may not be able to reply to all your posts because your understanding of the dhamma is too diverse from mine. May we be well and happy. May we get a glimpse of Nibbana soon. Sincerely, Elaine P/S: You write so eloquently about Anatta but your posts are full of atta personality, it just does not correlate with your understanding of anatta. :-(( ------------------------------- #77859 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:49 pm Subject: Re: Hello nichiconn Hi Phil, Alyssa, Cool your pajjalitos, Phil! SN V.7, vv.542-3 (Bodhi, p.227); Upacaala to Maara: {"Sabbo adipito loko, sabbo loko padhupito; sabbo pajjalito loko, sabbo loko pakampito.} "All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. {Akampitam apajjalitam, aputhujjana-sevitam, agati yatha marassa, tatha me nirato mano."} That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Maara: That is where my mind delights." Glad you made it here, Alyssa & looking forward to hearing more from you. Thanks for the link to your website, connie #77860 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A bit of a logical argument - for Herman egberdina Hi Howard, On 31/10/2007, upasaka@... wrote: > I will be away for a week from today, so any delays in possible further correspondence will be due to that. > Most importantly, all that is normally expressed as "our doing > something" consists of impersonal events, that fact being the central meaning of > "anatta" it seems to me. The sense of an "I" who acts is illusion! There is > acting but no actor. I agree with what you said, and the above captured it nicely, I thought. > Now, getting to kamma: Kamma is intention. When it arises, it arises as > an element of an interconnected stream of mental and physical phenomena. Such > intention has consequences into the future, consequences most especially > with regard to future states of that very namarupic stream - of that "being". Of > course it is crystal clear that there is interaction among sentient beings - > people, animals, etc, like an array of mutually reflecting mirrors in a > carnival funhouse, and thus these namarupic streams, while distinguishable, are > not separable. They are mutually conditioning. But, to emphasize, they *are* > distinguishable. As the Buddha taught - we are each heirs to our kamma. Yes, but what is distinguishing? What is the distinction between nama and rupa , and what is the distinction between this namarupic stream and that namarupic stream. You rightly point out that they are not, in fact, separable, so how is it that we seem to be able to tell them apart? My guess is that this is the function of attention. And what is attention? It is the selection of something to the exclusion of everything else that is happening. And to the extent that the fact of attention shapes a view that only what is being attended to is happening, attention is quite distorting of reality. Especially so in the context of causality / conditionality. The activity of identifying distinguishable streams of intentionality is, in my opinion, a fundamental constituent of suffering. Because a seeing-in-part, taking a selective snapshot of the entire web of being, and attributing an independence to that snapshot, is a seeing of what is, in fact, not there. This nama, that rupa, this intention etc are not distinguishable existents, they are the delusional products of (selective) attention. Granted, this process of attention may be governed by some discoverable law, and one might call such a law the law of kamma. But that would make the law of kamma the law of delusional attention. An example of that law in action may be the perception of a "being inheriting the fruits of their own deeds", which is a state brought about by the ignorance of partial and selective attention. But the law of anatta is unequivocal. There is not a being who does anything. The law of kamma describes / explains the seeing of what is not there. The law of anatta describes / explains what is there. That is why they are contradictory. Herman #77861 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A bit of a logical argument egberdina Hi DC, On 31/10/2007, DC Wijeratna wrote: > Thank you for your response. I will reply in a week's time. Herman #77862 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello m_nease Hi Alyssa, Connie and Phil, Welcome Alyssa. May all our pajjalitos(?) be cooled, physical and mental. BTW, I think that should be 'yattha', shouldn't it? Or have I misunderstood? Cheers, mike {Akampitam apajjalitam, aputhujjana-sevitam, agati yatha marassa, tatha me nirato mano."} That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Maara: That is where my mind delights." #77863 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychological and Bodily Continuity - Gethin and Questions? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 10/31/2007 12:43:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: There are no literal paramattha > dhammas in any list that are "accumulations". > > With metta, > Howard > >>>>>>> I agree 100%. Nowhere did the Buddha teach any "ultimate" realities. Even Nibbana isn't "an ultimate reality" even though it is the ultimate and unsurpassed peace and freedom - freedom even from any sort of ultimates (existence or non existence, both, neither). ==================================== We somewhat part ways as to belief at this point, Alex. What I meant was that 'accumulations' is a conventional term, and that it is not found among the paramattha dhammas detailed in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. As for "ultimate realities," I consider the paramattha dhammas as quite real in the ordinary sense and far more real than even well-grounded mental constructs such as trees, people, cars, and Dhamma discussion groups, all of which are not without relative reality (as compared to selves, unicorns, and three-sided squares, which are unreal). I do not consider even the paramattha dhammas, however, as separate, self-existent realities, but merely inseparable facets of an indescribable-but-knowable unique, diamond reality. It is nibbana that I consider to be that unique reality - the one and only unconditioned and unconditional reality. I consider it to be not only an ultimate reality, but in fact the *only* true reality. For me, nibbana is not one reality among many. It is "it". For me, reality must be unique, unitary, and ultimate. It'll be a "rather long while," though, before I'll get to directly verify this or see its falsity! ;-)) With metta, Howard #77864 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. scottduncan2 Dear Elaine, E: "...I cannot reply to every statement that you made because the basic understanding and foundations of Buddhism that we both have, are totally different..." Scott: No problem. Sincerely, Scott. #77865 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A bit of a logical argument - for Herman upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 10/31/2007 7:18:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard, On 31/10/2007, upasaka@... wrote: > I will be away for a week from today, so any delays in possible further correspondence will be due to that. > Most importantly, all that is normally expressed as "our doing > something" consists of impersonal events, that fact being the central meaning of > "anatta" it seems to me. The sense of an "I" who acts is illusion! There is > acting but no actor. I agree with what you said, and the above captured it nicely, I thought. > Now, getting to kamma: Kamma is intention. When it arises, it arises as > an element of an interconnected stream of mental and physical phenomena. Such > intention has consequences into the future, consequences most especially > with regard to future states of that very namarupic stream - of that "being". Of > course it is crystal clear that there is interaction among sentient beings - > people, animals, etc, like an array of mutually reflecting mirrors in a > carnival funhouse, and thus these namarupic streams, while distinguishable, are > not separable. They are mutually conditioning. But, to emphasize, they *are* > distinguishable. As the Buddha taught - we are each heirs to our kamma. Yes, but what is distinguishing? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Recognizing as not identical, I suppose. -------------------------------------------------- What is the distinction between nama and rupa , and what is the distinction between this namarupic stream and that namarupic stream. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I can't give you definitions for these. I can't put it into words in any satisfactory way. Can't we distinguish mental from physical? They don't see the same to me. And can't we tell you from me (speaking humanly)? ---------------------------------------------------- You rightly point out that they are not, in fact, separable, so how is it that we seem to be able to tell them apart? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: We just can. We can tell sights from sounds, and love from hate. Generally what differ are differentiable by us. I can't provide the details though. ---------------------------------------------------- My guess is that this is the function of attention. And what is attention? It is the selection of something to the exclusion of everything else that is happening. And to the extent that the fact of attention shapes a view that only what is being attended to is happening, attention is quite distorting of reality. Especially so in the context of causality / conditionality. The activity of identifying distinguishable streams of intentionality is, in my opinion, a fundamental constituent of suffering. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: That depends on what you mean by 'identifying'. If identifying separates, makes self-existent ... reifies, then, yes indeed, you are right. Distinguishing can go too far, and when it does it reifies and creates distress. ----------------------------------------------------- Because a seeing-in-part, taking a selective snapshot of the entire web of being, and attributing an independence to that snapshot, is a seeing of what is, in fact, not there. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that is the "separating" that I object to. ----------------------------------------------------- This nama, that rupa, this intention etc are not distinguishable existents, they are the delusional products of (selective) attention. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I get your point, but I think it goes a step beyond the middle way. The facets of a diamond can be distinguished from each other and from the whole, but they cannot be separated from either. For me, reality is an infinitely-faceted, luminous diamond. ------------------------------------------------------ Granted, this process of attention may be governed by some discoverable law, and one might call such a law the law of kamma. But that would make the law of kamma the law of delusional attention. An example of that law in action may be the perception of a "being inheriting the fruits of their own deeds", which is a state brought about by the ignorance of partial and selective attention. But the law of anatta is unequivocal. There is not a being who does anything. The law of kamma describes / explains the seeing of what is not there. The law of anatta describes / explains what is there. That is why they are contradictory. Herman ============================= With metta, Howard #77866 From: Elaine Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vsm 429 (was 'no subject') shennieca Hi Connie, Thanks for the info on the Patisambhida. I am reading Bhikkhu Bodhi’s book, ‘In the Buddha’s words’ and I will probably read the majjhima, samyutta or anguttara nikaya after I finish reading the first one. I have yet to read vimutti, visuddhi or patisambhidha magga, these books are not Buddha vacana, you know that, right? But I think it is Ok to read them. These books talk mostly about bhavana, the m-word, isn’t it? I particularly like this one that you wrote: Connie: The first asks what understanding is. The last sentence of the abbreviated/short answer: << Kusalacittasampayut ta.m vipassanaa~naa. na.m pa~n~naa. >> Insight knowledge associated with profitable or moral consciousness or thought. Elaine: I can recognize a few Pali words in that sentence, e.g. kusala, citta, vipassana ~naana, pa~n~naa. I wonder if there is any other translation for that Pali sentence? Also, something that you wrote caught my eye: Connie: <…but I doubt we do ourselves any favor if we dismiss them simply because we don't care much for words like 'logical analysis'.> Elaine: Hmmm, logical analysis, I don’t understand logical analysis in the Buddhist context. I am currently reading the Malukyaputta Sutta and I’d like to share it with you. Buddha said to Malukyaputta- “Ettha ca te Mālukyaputta dittha suta muta viññātesu dhammesu ditthe ditthamattam bhavissati, sute sutamattam bhavissati, mute mutamattam bhavissati, viññāte viññātamattam bhavissati.” “Mālukyaputta! As phenomena are seen, heard, thought of, or known, just let them be as they are seen, heard, thought of, or known at that moment. When you see, you just see it; when you hear, you just hear it; when you think, you just think it; and when you know, you just know it.” We have to be mindful of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling and thinking, for example: At the moment of seeing, if you are unmindful of the impermanence and insubstantiality of conditioned things, then defilements invade your heart and remain there. If you are mindful every moment of seeing diligently, you will realize that it arises just to disappear. When its true nature of impermanence is known, it can no longer torment you. (I have paraphrased this paragraph from A Discourse on the Malukyaputta Sutta, by Mahasi Sayadaw. This article can be obtained from the internet from Bhikkhu Pesala’s website). If I have paraphrased it wrongly, please tell me about it because I don’t want to misinterpret the Buddha’s words. It is a grave offense if we misinterpret the dhamma and preach it to others. Thank you. Sincerely, Elaine --------------------------- #77867 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello p.s. m_nease p.s. Connie, thanks for 'for Maara' for 'marassa' --had me completely flummoxed... #77868 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:17 pm Subject: (No subject) nichiconn Re: Hello hi mike, M: BTW, I think that should be 'yattha', shouldn't it? C: It's 'tattha' in Sisters (61), #74034, but then again, I make a lot of typos: 201. "Akampiya.m atuliya.m, aputhujjanasevita.m; buddho dhammamadesesi, tattha me nirato mano. 201. The Buddha taught me the Doctrine, unshakable, incomparable, not cultivated by ordinary people. My mind was deeply attached to it. peace, connie #77869 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] m_nease Hi Connie, OK, but in the context of "agati yatha marassa" (not your typing, I think?), doesn't 'yattha' make more sense than either 'yatha' or 'tattha'? Or maybe I'm really misconstruing all this? Cheers, mn M: BTW, I think that should be 'yattha', shouldn't it? C: It's 'tattha' in Sisters (61), #74034, but then again, I make a lot of typos: 201. "Akampiya.m atuliya.m, aputhujjanasevita.m; buddho dhammamadesesi, tattha me nirato mano. 201. The Buddha taught me the Doctrine, unshakable, incomparable, not cultivated by ordinary people. My mind was deeply attached to it. #77870 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Atmananda on freedom lbidd2 Hi Tom, I'm pretty sure Atmananda is writing about Self as noumenon (i.e. the 'witness', similar to Ramana Maharshi), but I know someone who understood him to be an Idealist writing about Self as consciousness. Either interpretation seems profitable and internally logical within the text. How do you see it? Larry A: "WHEN ARE YOU FREE? (69) When the thought that you are Atma, the Reality, becomes as strong as your present thought that you are the body, then alone are you free." #77871 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:29 pm Subject: Re: Hello philofillet Hi Connie, Ayssa,Mike and all > Cool your pajjalitos, Phil! An ongoing project, Connie, of great interest to me. One of these days I'm going to write a very long post about the cooling of my pajjalitos (in the sense I was joking about the word.) It is a place where significant progress has been made - and progress has to be made. > > SN V.7, vv.542-3 (Bodhi, p.227); Upacaala to Maara: > > {"Sabbo adipito loko, > sabbo loko padhupito; > sabbo pajjalito loko, > sabbo loko pakampito.} > > "All the world is on fire, > All the world is burning, > All the world is ablaze, > All the world is quaking. Great sutta passage. As it happens, just before checking here, I read Ajahn Chah say "THe Buddha said the things of the world spin the world around" and I was wondering what sutta it was, and though of Burning. "The eye is burning, form is burning, seeing consciousness is burning etc." I can also see why the words above would appeal to a composer. A little bit Great Balls of Fire-ish. Metta, Phil #77872 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:51 pm Subject: Re: Hello nichiconn M: OK, but in the context of "agati yatha marassa" (not your typing, I think?), doesn't 'yattha' make more sense than either 'yatha' or 'tattha'? Or maybe I'm really misconstruing all this? C: Sorry! Yep, you're right: Agati yattha maarassa, tattha me nirato mano -ti -assa, isn't that a sign of possession? sorry, halloween and all. my grammar sucks... Warder's on the way, but I've had Naarada's Elementary paperback for several years and it looks brand new so I don't know what makes me think there's going to be any miraculous change in my study habits. peace, connie #77873 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello dcwijeratna Interesting, Third sutta delivered by the Buddha. "aadittapariyaaya sutta" See Vinaya Mahaavagga. Most probably the third most important sutta. " "sabba.m bhikkave aaditta.m, ....raagagginaa dosagginaa mohagginaa aaditam" All are burning...by fires of lust, anger, delusion. A beautiful sutta with the simile of fire. Used by the Bhagavaa, in many places of the suttas. See AN for another nice simile: aaditasmi.m agaarasmim ya.m niiharati bhaajana.m .... What you give (daana) is like removing a vessel from a burning 'home', it will be saved but what is left inside is burnt. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77874 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. dcwijeratna Dear Elaine, I noticed that you have used the simile about apples and oranges. "The questions that I have asked and the replies that you gave is like me asking about an apple and you replying with an orange." The Buddhist expression is "a.mba.m phu.t.tho labuja.m vyaakaroti" asked about a mango speaks about a breadfruit. Beauty. For the whole story, DN 2. Lots of metta, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77875 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World dcwijeratna Dear Alex, May I but in to your conversation with DaCosta? I am interested in the following bit: > If there is no such thing as Self, then what experiences? What suffers? >>>> "Feeling" feels suffering. There is no need to include any sort of metaphysical (unprovable in experience) entity behind experience. Experience (of suffering or bliss) is merely that, experience. DC: But I feel suffering pain etc. That is ok, if atta is separate from you. But atta also refers to 'self' as in ordinary usage. >>>>>> > This is partly why the concept of Ultimate Truth is an illusion! DC: What do you refer to as "Ultimate Truth"? Paramatthadhamma or something else. >>>>>> D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77876 From: Elaine Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. shennieca Hi DC, Thanks for the reference. DN 2 (Samaññaphala Sutta) is a really, really good sutta, I think it is regarded as one of the masterpiece of the suttas. :-)) Warmest regards, Elaine ------------------------- #77877 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] dr han tun, sarah and nina dcwijeratna Dear Tep, This is about Pa.tisambhidhaamagga. After your post, original one, I thought about it a little bit and because of the difficulties I mentioned in my e-m, I gave it up. But after your e-m, I felt you care about it a lot, and decided to think about it again. As a preamble, I know only about things I can experience through my senses. I mentioned this long ago. Now Pts is about all manner of ~naa.na. But quite a lot about stuff I have no clue to. Now this started me thinking further, since there are things in there (Pts.) which I can understand by looking at my own mind. Then it occurred to me, I am deluded (all beings), so my chances of learning that way would be a problem. This is not the end of the story. Then it occurred to me, I can never know anybody else's mind. So I thought, may be that is why the Buddha has instructed us to go through Sila, Samaadhi,pa~n~naa. Now, I can give my views on your question. I can accept it. It doesn't seem to contradict what I know from Dhamma. So I can believe that. But knowledge? No. May be one day. If one is interested in Nekkhamma, that is the highest level to which an ordinary human being can rise up to. But, there is no need to leave home-for-homelessness. Then you have to settle for the second best stay at home and do the best you can. The more family types you have, the more difficult it is. But if you are at home and are able to lead the life of a pabbajita there, you can still give it a try. This is where I am now. That is follow siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naaa. Now people like us, the biggest problem starts with talk. We normally don't kill rob etc. But talk is the one where you'll problem. You see, we can usually get away, without any loss of well-being by cutting down talk. I think you can cut it down to less than 10%. I was a person, who used to talk may be 12 hours a day. Now most probably 1 hour. Or even less. I do not watch TV, read newspapers, indulge in talking about politics etc. "Dhammii va kathaa ariyo vaa t.nhiibhaavo" keep quiet or talk about dhamma. Even this letter is talking, I should be really talking only after becoming an arahant. That is the goal. You have to give everything you have to it. Even dhamma. Buddha's daily advice to the bhikkhus: "sabba paapassa akarana.m ..." That is all that you really need for a start. But since you need some rules for training (self-imposed), you need to observe the precepts. When you try to do that to the level required--"anumattesu vajjesu bhayadassavi", you will understand how difficult that is. To change our ways from what we are used to in our long, long journey in samsaara!!! Dhamma is experience. So what are you going to learn by studying. nothing, precisely nothing. Zero. Absolute zero. Ekaayano maggo (one and the only path), the Noble Eightfold Path. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77878 From: Alyssa Ryvers Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello aryvers Hi Phil, Connie, and Mike, Thank you for your welcomes. What a treat to have these conversations going on in my mailbox during the course of the day. I thought I would post the entire Upacala sutta, as translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, so that we have some context here; I read it that the sutta speaks of going past all attachments to pajjalito/s ;) : "Setting at Savatthi. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhuni Upacala dressed... she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding. Then Mara the Evil One approached the bhikkhuni Upacala and said to her: "Where do you wish to be reborn, bhikkhuni?" "I do not wish to be reborn anywhere, friend." [Mara:] There are Tavatimsa and Yama devas, And devatas of the Tusita realm, Devas who take delight in creating, And devas who exercise control. Direct your mind there And you'll experience delight. [Upacala:] There are Tavatimsa and Yama devas, And devatas of the Tusita realm, Devas who take delight in creating, And devas who exercise control. They are still bound by sensual bondage, They come again under Mara's control. All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Mara: That is where my mind delights. Then Mara the Evil One, realizing, "The bhikkhuni Upacala knows me," sad and disappointed, disappeared right there. Best wishes, Alyssa Ryvers Composer | Compositeur Music North Inc. www.musicnorth.com On 31-Oct-07, at 8:42 PM, m. nease wrote: > Hi Alyssa, Connie and Phil, > > Welcome Alyssa. May all our pajjalitos(?) be cooled, physical and > mental. > > BTW, I think that should be 'yattha', shouldn't it? Or have I > misunderstood? <...> #77879 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:20 pm Subject: Commentary -> Intention is the Kamma! rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! <...> Commentary: The underlying good or bad intention behind an action is what the Lord Buddha defined as the action (kamma) itself. So a good intention will lead to/result in good actions, and a bad intention will lead to/result in a bad actions.[1] From the external appearance of the action it is difficult to determine if the action was a good/bad action as the underlying intention is what determines the quality of the action. Actions (kamma) are done through the three outlets of: i) Mind and thoughts. ii) Mouth and words. iii) Body and deeds. The effects of our past actions can ripen: i) When born in hell. ii) When born as a ghost. iii) When born as an animal. iv) When born as a human being. v) When born as a divine being (deva). The effects of our past and present actions can come into effect: i) Right here and now. ii) In the next birth to come. iii) In births in the distant future yet to come. We are all created by our past actions (kamma) and are the inheritors of them. We are the sum product of our past mental, verbal and physical actions, including actions done in previous births. The future is determined by present undertakings. What actions (kamma) done, good or bad, the delayed result it we can expect to get in the future. Whatever beings come into existence, they will experience the effect of their actions (past and present). Whenever the result of actions ripen, the being will experience the fruit of those results (vipaka), in this life, next life or a remote life in the future. There is no place that can be found where one can escape the results of one's evil actions done (except in exceptional circumstances like attaining Nibbana in which case one is not liable to experience results of past/present actions in future births). [1] Sometimes it can be hard to decide what a good intention is because of our delusion (moha), so we may think we are acting with a good intention when we really are not and this is where it can get tricky. You can always check with a wise person if uncertain and/or see what the result of that action is and how it affects others before/after doing it (preferably before). Even if you act with the best of intentions and it causes suffering for others, then it is an undesirable result/outcome. See Also * Consequences - About being responsible for our actions (kamma) and their consequences (vipâka), see here www.vihara.org.au/go?to=conseq * Delusion - Covers the three unwholesome roots of action including delusion (môha), see here www.vihara.org.au/go?to=moha * Buddhist Positive Thinking - Positive thinking from a Buddhist perspective, see here www.vihara.org.au/go?to=posthink * Make Haste - About the dangers of samsâra (endless round of birth and death) and a call to attain Nibbâna (release) at the earliest opportunity, see here www.vihara.org.au/go?to=urgency * Motives (a commentary) http://vihara.org.au/go?to=motives ----- Original Message ---- From: Bhikkhu Samahita To: "Dhamma@Yahoogroups. Com" Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 5:44:48 PM Subject: Dhamma: Intention is the Kamma! Friends: The Intention behind the Action is the resulting Kamma! The Blessed Buddha once said: It is the intention behind the action, that I call kamma. Having wanted, wished, & willed, one acts by body, speech, and mind. There are actions (kamma) which cause later effects to ripen in hell! There are actions which cause later effects to ripen when an animal! There is kamma which cause later effects to ripen as a hungry ghost! There are actions which cause later effects to ripen as human being! There is kamma which cause later effects to ripen in divine states! The result of actions (vipÄ?ka) is of three kinds: Ripening here & now in the present life, in the next life, or in future lives. AN 6:63 <....> #77880 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. dcwijeratna Dear Azita, Thanks for the reply. Here is a short simple answer to your question: SAMMAA DI.T.THI - Right view. Good actions lead to good results; bad actions lead to bad results. ----------------------- "Azita: what is this first base? BTW. are you from Sri Lanka and what does DC stand for? thanks. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita -------------------------- With lots of mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77881 From: "Alyssa Ryvers" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello aryvers Phil wrote: "I can also see why the words above would appeal to a composer. A little bit Great Balls of Fire-ish." > > Phil: The reference is far more mundane and personal. I encountered a lengthy illness where at one point I felt my skin everywhere was on fire; the feeling was very intense, and gave me an appreciation of the hell realms, and that the depth of suffering is as deep as though the Universe had a dark hole way at the bottom and suffering goes on past there. Alyssa Ryvers Composer | Compositeur Music North Inc. www.musicnorth.com #77882 From: "Alyssa Ryvers" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello aryvers D. G. D. C. Wijeratna wrote: "What you give (daana) is like removing a vessel from a burning 'home', it will be saved but what is left inside is burnt." > > Thank you so much for bringing to the fore this profound verse. Best wishes, Alyssa Ryvers Composer | Compositeur Music North Inc. www.musicnorth.com #77883 From: "Alyssa Ryvers" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello aryvers D. G. D. C. Wijeratna: The more I'm considering it, the more I'm wondering where this verse is from. Can you send me a link to the sutta? Is it part of the Tipitaka? Does AN stand for, "Anguttara Nikaya"? When I reflect on the verse, what I consider is that once the building is gone (creating no kamma), what does it matter what happened to the the previous kammas of dana, because at that "point" there is no longer attachment? I would be interested in reading the context. Please let me know if you have a moment. Best wishes, Alyssa Ryvers Composer | Compositeur Music North Inc. www.musicnorth.com #77884 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:47 pm Subject: Ceasing of Suffering! bhikkhu0 Friends: Ceasing of all Craving is the Ceasing of all Suffering! The Blessed Buddha once said: What, now, is this Noble Truth on the Elimination of all Suffering? It is a complete fading away & irreversible elimination of all Craving , the rejection & leaving of it, & the liberating release from it! SN 56:11 But where may this craving vanish, where may it be extinguished? Wherever in the world there are delightful and pleasurable things! Right there & then may this craving be overcome, quenched & vanish... DN 22 Be it in the past, present, or any future, whatever recluse or monk considers all delightful, attractive, & pleasurable things in this world as impermanent anicca , miserable dukkha , & without a self anatta , as diseases & as cancers, it is they who conquer craving... SN 12:66 By final fading away and elimination of craving, clinging also ceases; By the elimination of clinging, the process of becoming also ceases; By the elimination of the process of becoming, rebirth also ceases; Through the elimination of all rebirth, is all decay, ageing & death!, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair finally extinguished... Only that is the eradication of this entire mass of Suffering... SN 12:43 On the irreversible & final ceasing of all pain: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_3rd_Noble_Truth_on_The_Ceasing_of_Suffe\ ring.htm Ceasing of Suffering is Nibbâna! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * .... #77885 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:47 pm Subject: Re: vsm 429 (was 'no subject') nichiconn Hi Elaine, E: I have yet to read vimutti, visuddhi or patisambhidha magga, these books are not Buddha vacana, you know that, right? But I think it is Ok to read them. These books talk mostly about bhavana, the m-word, isn't it? C: Do you mean they aren't Buddha's word because they don't start off with something like "eva.m me sutta.m" or even something to the effect that "when Buddha was staying over here (or up in the realm of the thirty-three) this was said"? I read fairy tales from the Lotus Sutra when I was young & thought it was just my aunt's funny accent that made it sound like she was saying "go sit zazen" when we were supposed to just be quiet and/or think about something. And now I'm laughing because everyone called Grandpa Sage "Chan" and he'd say I had 'good concentration' because he liked the way I could shoot. All to say that maybe I'm not the one to ask about either the m-word or what qualifies as the word of Buddha but I like what it says on the DSG homepage and appreciate what I've read of the commentaries so far. The vimuttimagga isn't Theravadan, is it? I guess that's where I draw the line these days - if it's good enough for the 6th council, it's good enough for me and if it can be found on the CSCD, it's about bhaavanaa, but I wouldn't limit that to "meditation". E: I particularly like this one that you wrote: Connie: The first asks what understanding is. The last sentence of the abbreviated/short answer: << Kusalacittasampayutta.m vipassanaa~naa.na.m pa~n~naa. >> Insight knowledge associated with profitable or moral consciousness or thought. Elaine: I can recognize a few Pali words in that sentence, e.g. kusala, citta, vipassana ~naana, pa~n~naa. I wonder if there is any other translation for that Pali sentence? C: Do you have any suggestions? Nanamoli said 'profitable consciousness' and PMTin, 'moral thought' for kusalacitta... both said 'insight knowledge associated with'. I was just being lazy and combining them rather than quoting both separately. I like it too, though. Thanks for sharing the section of the Malukyaputta Sutta from SN's Book of the 6 Sense Bases. E: "Maalukyaputta! As phenomena are seen, heard, thought of, or known, just let them be as they are seen, heard, thought of, or known at that moment. When you see, you just see it; when you hear, you just hear it; when you think, you just think it; and when you know, you just know it." C: Bodhi's translation for comparison: << Here, Maalu'nkyaputta, regarding things seen, heard, sensed, and cognized by you: in the seen there will be merely the seen; in the heard there will be merely the heard; >> etc. seems to speaks more to the idea that seeing sees, hearing hears, etc. and less to the idea of "you doing" and 'just allowing'. Phenomena already are just what they are and that's what needs to be realized... not "just let them be". E: We have to be mindful of seeing, hearing ... C: Yes, but... "there needs to be mindfulness while seeing," etc. It's not just a matter of avoiding pronouns and talking funny. And not just any old mindfulness, as the sutta points out: <> It's mindfulness itself that guards, not us. It's 'us' that gets carried away or holds tight; right mindfulness that stops that right at the sense and mind doors before we're loaded up with infatuation and taken off down down the javana runway, so to speak. I think this sutta is supposed to be more about that than about seeing impermanence and insubstantiality. peace, connie #77886 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (68) sarahprocter... Dear Connie SAGE, --- L G SAGE wrote: >... No, there's no 'revival' in trying to bring > back something whose time is past... just more hastening the further > decline..... ... S: Nicely said. The more respect there is for the Dhamma in general, the more respect there is for the Vinaya too. Metta, Sarah ====== #77887 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. sarahprocter... Hi Elaine (DC & all), --- Elaine wrote: > Hi DC, all, > > I found the sutta from accesstoinsight, I'll paste it here. I hope we > can discuss it. :-)) > > SN 35.23 > Sabba Sutta > The All > > Translated from the Pali by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu <...> > I think the "All" means the things we can perceive through our senses. > Bhante Thanissaro's note says "Perception of self or non-self, which > would count as differentiation, would not apply beyond the "All". :-)) > > ... hmm.. don't know what that means yet. > Looking forward to hear more opinions on this sutta. Thank you. :-)) ... S: I've no idea what TB means either. Pls take a look at posts saved in "Useful Posts" in the files section of DSG under 'Sabba Sutta' and let us know if they help. Metta, Sarah p.s I'm still catching up after our trip away (and I have a cold), so pls excuse some of my brief replies for now. In no time at all, I'll be writing long replies like Sukin's which sound like oranges to your apples - then you'll be requesting more of the brief ones again:-)). Good to read all your spirited responses....much more helpful to receive these than no feedback at all. ============= #77888 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Computer problem sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah and All, > > My computer is giving trouble again. > It gets very difficult to start. .... S: I truly sympathise. Like you, we seem to have been plagued with computer problems recently, both on our trip and on our return. Your problem is just the one we had for the whole trip with Jon's computer....in the end we had to just give up, after consulting various technicians for hours on end. Here's something that may be of interest to you: In #55595, Htoo wrote about paticchanna dukkha (or apataka dukkha, concealed suffering) and apaticchanna dukkha (or pataka dukkha, apparent to all). He said that dukkha dukkha, viparinama dukkha and sankhara dukkha could be re-classified in this way. Paticchanna dukkha, he said, referred to dukkha that only the sufferers know, whereas apaticchanna dukkha is evident to all, for example, a physical wounding. I wasn't familiar with this and had been lazy to check the texts, so I raised it with A.Sujin. I thought there might be more to it, because sankhara dukkha refers to the dukkha inherent in all conditioned dhammas, due to their rise and fall, as you know. As usual, she gave a deeper interpretation and said that the paticchanna dukkha, concealed suffering, referred to the hidden rise and fall of dhammas. When you have easy access (no hurry), please let me know if you're familiar with these terms and what your understanding is. Metta, Sarah ============ #77889 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 12:02 am Subject: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye sarahprocter... Dear Scott (Nina & Herman), I think you were struggling over these lines before (#60934): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > I took a look at the Cula Sunnata Sutta, and pulled a similar passage > from further on in the scripture: > > "And there is just this non-emptiness, that connected with the six > sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as condition." > > A second translation of the same passage: > > "There is non-voidity on account of life and the body of six mental > spheres." > > The Paali: > > "Atthi cevida.m asu~n~nata.m yadida.m imameva kaaya.m paticca > salaayatanika.m jiivitapaccayeti" ... S: and Boddhi's: "There is present only this non-voidness, namely, that connected with the six bases that are dependent on this body and conditioned by life." S: Here, A.Sujin stressed that this apparent "asu~n~nata" refers to wrong view, to NOT understanding dhammas as su~n~nata. Does this clarify at last? Metta, Sarah p.s I'm adding your notes here for easy reference: Scott: >The Paali: "Atthi cevida.m asu~n~nata.m yadida.m imameva kaaya.m paticca salaayatanika.m jiivitapaccayeti" atthi: object; essence or value or profitablenss; to recognise the nature of; to realise; to know; to understand. cevida.m: ce=if vidanati=to make appear; to show vi=two; duality or separation; prefix of separation and expansion; asunder; "dis" ida=in this here. asu~n~nata.m: absence of voidness or emptiness. yadida.m: ya=which yadida="as that;" which is this; viz; just this; in other words; so to speak; just this; I mean. imameva: so, even, just ("eva") kaaya.m: to heap up; accumulate; an aggregate of a multiplicity of elements(physical sense); seat of sensation, fundamental organ of touch (psychological). paticca: "paccaya" support; resting on; falling back on; requisite; relation; condition. salayatanika.m: the six organs of sense and the six objects. jiivitapaccayeti: jivita=that which is lived; individual life. paccayeti=by means of; cause by; resting on. Obviously I had difficulty with some of these (again, Paali experts, please correct!) Here's what I get: "Recognising and knowing the essence in the absence of voidness or emptiness, even this aggregate of a multiplicity of elements, this seat of sensation, resting upon the six organs of sense and the six objects, being conditioned by means of this life which is lived." Given this utter butchery, the six organs of sense and the six objects are meant, and, as you say, no real implication of a brain in any of this.. The "kaaya" is "body" all right but a body described as an "aggregate," an aggregate made up of "a multiplicity of elements."< =========== #77890 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. - to Sukin sarahprocter... Dear Elaine, (& Sukin), --- Elaine wrote: > Dear Sukin, > > I don’t think I can discuss the dhamma with you. Thank you very much > for your time. ... Sarah: I hope you may re-consider at a later date. I know Sukin will have spent a considerable amount of time, trying to respond to your excellent questions and comments as thoroughly as possible with good intentions to assist. I think it comes down to another 'apples and oranges' issue, however, or rather a meditation experience vs Dhamma/Abhidhamma explanation issue. (D.C., thank you for the mangoes vs bread-fruit quote). For example, > Elaine: Pain, when it is watched closely, it does not feel painful, it > changes... > > Sukin: This to me is only "thinking" and quite typical of those who > engage in deliberate noting. ... Sarah: The issue is, I think, whether painful bodily feelings can a) be watched, b) can change into non-painful bodily feelings, or c) remain as painful bodily feelings, but somehow not be experienced as such. From my understanding of the teachings, all of these are impossible. Painful bodily feelings arise for a brief moment only, experience either solidity, temperature or motion and then fall away. By the time there is any 'watching', numerous other dhammas have arisen and fallen away. Also, we need to appreciate that such painful feelings are namas, not rupas. They are not experienced through the sense-doors. .... > ----------------- > Elaine: This is the most atrocious accusation I have ever come across. > To you it is only “thinking” because you have not experienced it. ... Sarah: It's impossible not to have experienced painful feelings. However, they are brief conditioned dhammas that arise and fall away like all other conditioned dhammas. Is there painful bodily feeling appearing now? If not (for example, when there is seeing, hearing or other experiences), then it is just thinking about it. Usually, the thinking about painful feelings is what makes them so much more severe, don't you find? I understand your frustration and hope I haven't added more to the rotten fruit-cart! It's up to you if you'd like to pursue the topic any further with either of us. At least, I hope you'll take another look at some of Sukin's other comments sometime. As he says, his approach is a direct one! Metta, Sarah ====== #77891 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello sarahprocter... Dear Alyssa, Just briefly, welcome to DSG and many thanks for your good start with the mystery post. Phil gave one of his hilarious replies:-). Lots of good reminders, thank you! Burning with attachment on and on and on. So very useless. Thanks for giving the full sutta. If you have a moment, pls let us know a little more about your background - where you live, anything about your interest in Dhamma, your composing etc. Look forward to more discussion later. Metta, Sarah p.s. For those interested, there is a section on 'Fire, Fires, Burning, Ablaze...' in '"Useful Posts" under 'F' in the files too. ...... --- Alyssa Ryvers wrote: <...> > All the world is on fire, > All the world is burning, > All the world is ablaze, > All the world is quaking. <...> #77892 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychological and Bodily Continuity - Gethin and Questions? sarahprocter... Hi Elaine & all, --- Elaine wrote: >How is a person supposed to understand "sanna", what is > meant by "sanna", isn't it just a synonym for "memory"? If I exchange > the word 'memory' for 'sanna', I am also an abhidhammist? ... S: It depends how we understand memory. When you refer to memory, do you refer to a momentary mental factor which arises at every single instant, with every single consciousness (citta), falling away immediately? Do you understand it as a conditioned dhamma, nothing to do with 'Elaine' or 'Sarah'? Or do you have an idea of 'my memory about places and people and situations'? I think you get the point that sanna is very, very different from our conventional ideas or our psychological ideas of memory or store. So now, there is sanna, even at moments of seeing-cosnciousness, even at moments of being completely forgetful (in a conventional sense). Sanna is marking and remembering each visible object seen, each sound heard, each tangible object experienced. The key-board I'm writing this on feels warm. Sanna is marking this warmth and this is a condition for an idea of a warm key-board again and again. Before I posted the entire 'Cetasikas' by Nina in sections here. You may find it helpful to read the chapter 3 on 'Perception' (Sanna). It can be found on Zolag and various web-sites. Also, if you have time, take a look in "Useful Posts" under 'Sanna' and let me know if you have any further questions/disagreements!! I welcome either:-)) ... > Also, whenever there is a question about other things, you wrote the > word "conditions" in your reply. How is a person supposed to understand > the word "conditions"? What do you mean by conditions, what are the > conditions? ... S: There are 24 conditions, paccaya. I referred a couple of times to kamma condition and to natural decisive support condition. These are two of the largest of these 24 conditions. Especially the latter one (pakatupanissaya paccaya in Pali) is very all-encompassing and actually answers many of the author's questions. For example, now as we discuss dhammas (realities), wise reflection arises and accumulates or grows. This is by this condition. On the other-hand, when we get angry, the anger accumulates and this makes it just a little bit easier to arise in future. Or let's say we have a preference for oranges (rather than apples!!). Again, such a preference has been accumulated by such preference in the past. Our likes and dislikes, our tendencies of all kinds have been growing and building up in this way from life-time to life-time. This is why even identical twins have very different characters. For more, see Nina's book on 'Conditions', especially the chapter on 'Decisive support condition' and 'Kamma condition'. Again, I welcome your further reflections and comments or experiences. .... > These short replies that you gave did not do justice to the deeper > meaning of the questions. Or do you actually think that our > consciousness is as simplified as the way that you have answered it? Can > you please elaborate on them? ... S: No, there is nothing simple at all about the nature of dhammas. I wrote briefly because a) I was short of time and b) I wished to see if there was any interest from Chris or anyone else to explore the areas I was touching on further before saying more. In this way, it's easier to see what the real problems and questions are in a dialogue. Thanks again for your helpful feedback, Elaine. Metta, Sarah ========= #77893 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 12:25 am Subject: Commentary -> Ceasing of Suffering! rwijayaratne Summary/Commentary: This is the Third Noble Truth (of the four truths, the pure essence and core of Buddhism). All suffering can be ended by completely abandoning craving, the cause of suffering. This can be done right here and now, in this very world we live in surrounded by pleasurable things. In the past, present and also in the future to come, those who abandoned craving did so by contemplating and understanding that all pleasurable things in this world are: i) Impermanent and subject to change (anicca)... ii) ...as therefore causing suffering, stress, pain, unsatisfactoriness (dukkha)... iii) ...and as therefore being unsuitable to be considererd as me, mine, part of me, belonging to me, being of self (anatta)... Dependant Origination/Law of Causality (With X as a condition Y arises, with Y as a condition Z arises, and so on...) * When craving ends, clinging also comes to an end (as clinging arises dependant on craving as the condition) * When clinging ends, becoming also comes to an end (as becoming arises dependant on clinging as the condition) * When becoming ends, birth also comes to an end (as birth arises dependant on becoming as the condition) * When birth ends, suffering also comes to an end (as suffering arises dependant on birth as the condition). All suffering including decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair all come to and when birth is stopped. So by not being re-born one is no longer subject to suffer! This is the final goal (Nibbana), the elimination of all suffering through the ending of never ending re-birth, which itself is ended by ending becoming, which itself is ended by ending clinging, which itself is ended by the ending of craving! Craving is ended by contemplating that all pleasurable things are i) impermanent (anicca), ii) and as therefore causing suffering (dukkha) iii) and as therefore not mine, part of me, or me (anatta). May you end craving...re-birth...suffering! May you attain to Nibbana! ----- Original Message ---- From: Bhikkhu Samahita Sent: Thursday, 1 November, 2007 3:47:51 PM Subject: Buddha-Direct 985: Ceasing of Suffering! Friends: Ceasing of all Craving is the Ceasing of all Suffering! The Blessed Buddha once said: What, now, is this Noble Truth on the Elimination of all Suffering? It is a complete fading away & irreversible elimination of all Craving, the rejection & leaving of it, & the liberating release from it! SN 56:11 But where may this craving vanish, where may it be extinguished? Wherever in the world there are delightful and pleasurable things! Right there & then may this craving be overcome, quenched & vanish... DN 22 <...> #77894 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye nilovg Dear Scott, my eye fell on this one, but I stand to be corrected, since the insertion of consonants in between vowels (Warder, p. 255) is difficult. Op 1-nov-2007, om 8:02 heeft sarahprocterabbott het volgende geschreven: > Scott: > >The Paali: > > "Atthi cevida.m asu~n~nata.m yadida.m imameva kaaya.m paticca > salaayatanika.m jiivitapaccayeti" > > cevida.m: ce=if > vidanati=to make appear; to show > vi=two; duality or separation; prefix of separation and > expansion; asunder; "dis" > ida=in this here. ------- Cevida.m: seem to me: ce ida.m. The v may just be inserted. This makes it more simple. Nina. #77895 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 3:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello dcwijeratna Alyssa Ryvers My aplogies. It is not AN it is SN Samyutta Nikaaya. Here is the full reference and full verse. Samyutta Nikaaya, Sagaathavaggapaali, Devataa Samyutta, Aadittavagga, Aadittasutta. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation: Vol I, p. 120, Verse No 1. There are altogether 5 verses. Full Pali verse: aadittasmi.m agaarasmi.m - ya.m niiharati bhaajana.m ta.m tassa hoti atthaaya - no ca ya.m tattha .dayhati. Here is the meaning of the verse: When a house is on fire, if one removes a 'vessel' (from that burning house) that will be for his benefit, else it will burn there. I gave you the full translation because of your comment. The house in the verse refers to any house. Ownership is not relevant to the meaning of the house. The moral there is: Whatever you give is for your benefit (attha), what you keep without giving is lost--Really advise for people who are miserly. [Please do not translate Attha as truth. That is in Abhidhamma literature] This one I wrote off my memory; AN went to my head because it has a lot of advice for householders, lay-followers. Sorry for that again. I'll give you another one [again from memory]: "The Buddha once advised, to remember what he has said as said and what he has not said as not said" If his disciples didn't follow this advice, we have no suttas today. I keep it as a fundamental maxim. I have found it very useful when reading Dhamma in any translated version. I am very grateful for your response. And if you ever have any other queries please ask. It will be a great benefit to me in my journey--[paatheyaa--stuff useful to you on the way] Mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77896 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 3:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A bit of a logical argument sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > Hi Sarah > > Welcome back. We missed you. ... S: Thx to you, Tep and everyone else. Good to be back. .... > > S: I wonder whether this 'emotional comfort' you look for and find > is > > detachment or more attachment? > > > Sarah, did I say "look for?" ... S: You often refer to the 'emotional comfort' you find, now in the suttas, before in the Abhidhamma. Here are a couple of your past comments which gave me this idea (there have been several others): ... >Phil: For awhile I was finding my comfort in studying Abdhidhamma, latching on to intellectual understanding of the deepest teaching and finding emotional comfort in having access to such deep teachings. I really don't mean to say that that is true for everyone who studies Abhdihamma intensively, but isn't it a possibility? .... >Phil:One thing I thought this morning. We *all* seek emotional comfort from Dhamma. I find it really hard to believe that there is anyone who doesn't .... S: As I suggested, I think we need to consider whether it isn't just more attachment, bound to lead to disappointment. If you see it in some other way, I'd be glad to hear. Honestly, this seeing of emotional comfort doesn't ring a bell for me. .... > And yes, probably more attachment. There is no way around it for > us, I think. "Detachment from the beginning" is just thinking about > detachment from the beginning with attachment, as far as I can see. ... S: Whenever there is any right understanding, even at the level of wise reflection now, it is accompanied by detachment, not attachment. At moments of any kind of kusala, for that matter, there is alobha cetasika, not lobha cetasika. I agree that attachment is always ready to follow. .... > > You also mentioned sometime back something along the lines of > looking for > > and finding a 'change of character'. Again, this may reflect a > difference > > in aim and purpose. > > Well, if I said "change of character" I was wrong, or careless in > wording. ... S: This was a wrong paraphrase on my part. I was probably thinking of comments like your 'speechless ones' to Nina here: Phil: >Hi Nina >N: We should not > try to change our character and become a better person with the aim > to develop right understanding. P: Nina, statements like this leave me non-speechless... :)< ..... S: I think there have been others where you've stated an aim suggesting an attempt to try and change/improve rather than understand tendencies. Metta, Sarah ====== #77897 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 3:23 am Subject: Return. nilovg Dear Sarah and friends, Sarah, I hope your cold is better. I know you usually have this after a strenuous journey. We had quite an experience with our twelve hour night train from Gaya to Delhi. Just a narrow bed and curtain for each of us, no table etc. Lodewijk fell flat on his stomach while getting out of bed, the train was so wobbly, but nothing was broken, only a painful shoulder. The attendants were so very kind to us. They helped me each time to open the lavatory door for me which was so hard. They served breakfast with tea, coffee. The family opposite us were the most friendly people, a couple with a daughter and a grandmother. The daughter sang to us a folk song, she had a loveky voice. I shall always remnember the kindness of the people on the train. The whole experience was unforgettable. Definitely the last time, Lodewijk said. I will write more about the discussions later on, I am still half asleep. Each time when meeting Kh Sujin there is just a tiny, tiny bit of more understanding. Lodewijk started to ask me more about visible object. Nina. #77898 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 3:25 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 17, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 17 Different Aspects of the Twentyfour Conditions Summarizing the twentyfour conditions, they are: root-condition (hetu-paccaya) object-condition (årammana-paccaya) predominance-condition (adhipati-paccaya) proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya) contiguity-condition (samanantara-paccaya) conascence-condition (sahajåta-paccaya) mutuality-condition (aññamañña-paccaya) dependence-condition (nissaya-paccaya) decisive support-condition (upanissaya-paccaya) prenascence-condition (purejåta-paccaya) postnascence-condition (pacchåjåta-paccaya) repetition-condition (åsevana-paccaya) kamma-condition (kamma-paccaya) vipåka-condition (vipåka-paccaya) nutriment-condition (åhåra-paccaya) faculty-condition (indriya-paccaya) jhåna-condition (jhåna-paccaya) path-condition (magga-paccaya) association-condition (sampayutta-paccaya) dissociation-condition (vippayutta-paccaya) presence-condition (atthi-paccaya) absence-condition (natthi-paccaya) disappearance-condition (vigata-paccaya) non-disappearance-condition (avigata-paccaya) The Buddha taught the conditions for each reality which arises. These conditions are not abstractions, they occur now, in our daily life. What we take for our mind and our body are only elements which arise because of their appropriate conditions and are devoid of self. We should often consider how our body comes into being. At the first moment of our life kamma produced the heart-base and other rúpas together with the rebirth-consciousness, and throughout our life kamma continues to produce the heartbase and the sense-bases. Not only kamma, but also citta, heat and nutrition produce rúpas of the body. When we touch the body hardness appears, but this is only an element which arises and falls away; nobody can cause its arising and it does not belong to “our body”. Through awareness of realities we will understand more clearly that there are only elements which arise because of their own conditions. Nina. #77899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 3:25 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings. no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Preserving the Buddha's Teachings Introduction In October 2001 we joined a large group of Thai pilgrims led by our friend in Dhamma and teacher Acharn (the Thai word for teacher) Sujin Boriharnwanaket, to the Buddhist sites in India. We still have the opportunity to pay respect to the excellent qualities of the Buddha and the arahats, and to recollect the teachings contained in the Tipitaka. But for the Buddha, there would be no way to understand our life as it really is: phenomena that arise and then fall away immediately. We would not be able to develop the understanding that sees things as they really are: impermanent, unsatisfactory (dukkha) and non-self. Only this understanding leads to the eradication of ignorance, wrong view and all other defilements. The Buddha’s teachings have been corrupted in the course of time and eventually they will disappear. Today we still have the opportunity to study the teachings, to consider them thoroughly and to apply them, so that we gain understanding of what our life really is: seeing, colour, hearing, sound, feeling, thinking and the other phenomena as they present themselves one at a time at this very moment. In this way we truly take our refuge in the Dhamma. Throughout our journey Acharn Sujin taught us about the reality appearing at this moment because only understanding of the present moment can lead to the elimination of clinging to the concept of self. She taught with a great sense of urgency in view of the eventual disappearance of the teachings. Mr. Suwat Chansuvityanant and his son Mr. Pakabutr were in charge of the organisation of the tour, just as many times before when we made this pilgrimage. We visited as usual Lumbini, the Buddha’s birth place, Bodhgaya where he attained enlightenment, Sarnath, the place of his first sermon and Kusinåra where he passed finally away. Our journey brought us also again to Savatthí, Råjagaha where we climbed the Vulture’s Peak, Nålandå, the Bamboo Grove and Vesalí . In addition, a few other places were included most people had not visited before. We came to Sankassa, the place were the Buddha descended from the ‘Heaven of the Thirtythree’, after having explained the Abhidhamma to his mother. We also visited Kapilavatthu in Nepal, where he as a Bodhisatta grew up, and we visited the park where he saw an old man, a sick man, a dead man and a monk. We visited the place where Cunda offered the Buddha his last meal and also the river where he took his last bath before he finally passed away in Kusinåra. Kosambí was also included, but not all of us went there since it was too far. Most of the holy places we visited were already described by the Chinese monk Chi Fah Hian who in the fifth century A.D. traveled all the way from the China of the Sung Dynasty to India and Sri Lanka in order to seek complete copies of the Buddhist scriptures and the Rules of the Vinaya[1]. It was very striking to find many places exactly as described by this monk 1600 years ago! In Sankassa the remnants of Asoka’s column are still there. In Kapilavatthu we paid respect at the Eastern Gate of the Palace where the royal prince Siddhatta left the city in order to go forth from worldly life. In Savatthí we had Dhamma discussion at the place where, Fah Hian tells us, “the Buddha resided for a long time and expounded the Dhamma for the salvation of men.” With regard to Sarnath, where the Buddha began to turn the Wheel of the Dhamma, the Chinese monk wrote: “ in all these places towers (stupas) have been erected which still exist”. We paid respect at these same stupas! --------- Footnote: 1.Travels of Fah-Hian and Sung-Yam, translated by Samuel Beal, Asian Educational Services, New Delhi, 1996. ISBN: 81-206-0824-0. ****** Nina. #77900 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 3:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Leaving for Burma! sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: >> So, realising the danger of suffering in apaaya, > > one should strive to be totally free from even the slightest > misconduct." ... S: This was Mahasi Sayadaw's phrasing. Lots of relevant sutta and Abhidhamma references could be given. For example, from a post of Tep's: >Tep:(e.g. MN 53). "He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. This is how the disciple of the noble ones is consummate in virtue. ... the disciple of the noble ones guards the doors to his sense faculties ...the disciple of the noble ones knows moderation in eating ... is devoted to wakefulness ... the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with seven qualities (1. is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening, 2. hiri, 3. ottappa, 4. well- penetrated in terms of his views, 5. is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities, 6. is mindful and highly meticulous, 7. is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away)."< .... > > Excuse me for having misunderstood you for the last six, seven years. > I always read you as maintaining that the notion of "one striving" was > riddled with self -view. Perhaps you can now allow yourself to > meditate without guilt. ... S: :-) It depends on the understanding. The last words of the Buddha were were: "Transient are all the elements! Strive with diligence".[Vayadhammaa sankhaaraa appamaadena sampaadetha]. In the one word 'appamaada' (diligence or awareness), the Buddha is said to have summarized all his teachings. There is no suggestion of atta doing anything special and certainly no suggestion of any control. The elements are conditioned and transient, but they can be understood and a path can be developed. No guilt about any of my activities, I assure you, Herman. The only hindrance to understanding the path is ignorance and wrong view. This is regardless of whether one is standing, walking, sitting or lying down. Metta, Sarah ========= #77901 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Return. sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Lodewijk), Welcome back! We're both very glad that you're both home safely and that Lodewijk's fall was not more serious. He must have got a fright from it. How very nice that the attendants and family were all so helpful. Yes, take your time to settle back. No hurry! Visible object - just that which is seen now. I couldn't catch your questions about 'how many colours' or 'so many colours'. It just appears and then it's gone. Metta, Sarah p.s my cold is a very minor one, thank you. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: <...> > Definitely the last time, Lodewijk said. > I will write more about the discussions later on, I am still half > asleep. Each time when meeting Kh Sujin there is just a tiny, tiny > bit of more understanding. Lodewijk started to ask me more about > visible object. > Nina. > #77902 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. dcwijeratna Dear Azita, I am sorry. I forgot to answer the questions you have asked? Here are the answers: I am from Sri Lanka. Born and bred here. I am a traditional Buddhist. That is inherited from my parents and of course the simple village society they lived in. D. C. is my name. It means: Dayaawansa Chandra. [Other letters and Wijeratna are family names] D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77903 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 4:08 am Subject: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the clarification (I hope your cold is going away): [The Paali: "Atthi cevida.m asu~n~nata.m yadida.m imameva kaaya.m paticca salaayatanika.m jiivitapaccayeti"] S: "...and Bodhi's: "There is present only this non-voidness, namely, that connected with the six bases that are dependent on this body and conditioned by life." S: Here, A.Sujin stressed that this apparent 'asu~n~nata' refers to wrong view, to NOT understanding dhammas as su~n~nata." Scott: Micchaa di.t.thi, then. Seeing self when the elements are in fact void of self. Is this one 'definition' of the term? The first 'step' of the Eightfold Wrong Path? Sincerely, Scott. #77904 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 4:35 am Subject: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Hello again. Thanks for the clarification. I have yet to really get these insertions (obviously): N: "my eye fell on this one, but I stand to be corrected, since the insertion of consonants in between vowels (Warder, p. 255) is difficult...Cevida.m: seem to me: ce ida.m. The v may just be inserted. This makes it more simple." [Me: cevida.m: ce=if vidanati=to make appear; to show vi=two; duality or separation; prefix of separation and expansion; asunder; "dis" ida=in this here.] Scott: This would then be (PTS PED): "Ce...conditional particle 'if'..." "Ida...in this, here...now, then...just (this),...even so, only..." Scott: Then 'Atthi cevida.m asu~n~nata.m...' would be something like 'If in this [one understands] the object to be non-void...' Linked to Sarah's clarification, such an understanding (that there can be anything that is 'non-void') is micchaa-di.t.thi. Sincerely, Scott. #77905 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 4:18 am Subject: RE: [dsg] An Important Observation dacostacharles Hi Howard, And thanks for reminding me of this! I agree 110% with your analysis. "... respite ..." Now that's a new word for me. You must have an extensive vocabulary or lots of time on your hands :-) Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 18:11 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] An Important Observation Desires achieved increase thirst like salt water. -Milarepa, "Drinking the Mountain Stream" The ordinary, commonsense view is that attaining what is desired provides satisfaction. But, in fact, with the exception of attaining (desired) elimination of defilements, all that attainment of desires does, as I see it, is give a very brief and delusive respite from the pain of craving. #77906 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 5:23 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (70) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato 5. Subhaakammaaradhiitutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa Part 2 (where the verse numbers start being 2 off) txt: Arahatta.m pana patvaa- 339. "Daharaaha.m suddhavasanaa, ya.m pure dhammamassu.ni.m; tassaa me appamattaaya, saccaabhisamayo ahu. 340. "Tatoha.m sabbakaamesu, bhusa.m aratimajjhaga.m; sakkaayasmi.m bhaya.m disvaa, nekkhammameva piihaye. 341. "Hitvaanaha.m ~naatiga.na.m, daasakammakaraani ca; gaamakhettaani phiitaani, rama.niiye pamodite. 342. "Pahaayaha.m pabbajitaa, saapateyyamanappaka.m; eva.m saddhaaya nikkhamma, saddhamme suppavedite. 343. "Neta.m assa patiruupa.m, aaki~nca~n~na~nhi patthaye; yo jaataruupa.m rajata.m, cha.d.detvaa punaraagame. 344. "Rajata.m jaataruupa.m vaa, na bodhaaya na santiyaa; neta.m sama.nasaaruppa.m, na eta.m ariyaddhana.m. Pruitt: After attaining the state of Arahatship, she spoke these verses: [Subhaa, the Smith's Daughter] 338. I was young with clean clothes when I heard the Doctrine previously. Being vigilant, I obtained comprehension of the [four] truths. 339. Then I attained great non-delight in all sensual pleasures. Seeing fear in individuality, I longed only for renunciation [of the world]. 340. I left the group of my relatives, the slaves and servants, the rich fields and villages, and delightful and pleasant possessions, and I went forth, abandoning no small wealth. 341. Since I renounced [the world] in faith this way, and [since] the true Doctrine has been well preached, it would not be fitting for me, once I had laid aside gold and silver, to take them back again, for I desire the state of having nothing. 342. Neither silver nor gold is [conducive] to awakening or peace. This is not proper for ascetics. This is not the wealth of the noble ones. RD: As Arahant she spoke thus: A maiden I, all clad in white, once heard (338) The Norm, and hearkened eager, earnestly, So in me rose discernment of the Truths. Thereat all worldly pleasures irked me sore, For I could see the perils that beset This reborn compound, 'personality,' And to renounce it was my sole desire. (339) So I forsook my world - my kinsfolk all, My slaves, my hirelings, and my villages, And the rich fields and meadows spread around, Things fair and making for the joy of life - All these I left, and sought the Sisterhood, Turning my back upon no mean estate. (340) Amiss were't now that I, who in full faith Renounced that world, who well discerned the Truth, Who, laying down what gold and silver bring, Cherish no worldly wishes whatsoe'er, Should, all undoing, come to you again! (341) Silver and gold avail not to awake, *377 Or soothe. Unmeet for consecrated lives, *378 They are not Ariyan - not noble - wealth. (342) *377 Na bodhaaya na santiyaa: not for enlightenment, lit., being awake, or peace. George Eliot has lines in sympathy with Subhaa: 'Nay, falter not - 'tis an assured good To seek the noblest - 'tis your only good, Now you have seen it; for that higher vision Poisons all meaner choice for evermore.' *378 Literally, for sama.na's or recluses (religieux). ===tbc, connie #77907 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 5:23 am Subject: Perfections Corner (32) nichiconn Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 7: The Perfection of Truthfulness, taken from the book "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ The perfection of truthfulness should be developed together with pa~n~naa so that the noble Truths can be realized. We need courage so that we are diligent and turn away immediately from akusala. If we are too slow in turning away from akusala, it will later on become more difficult or even too late to do so, as must have happened life after life. We read in the Commentary to the "Itivuttaka", "As it was said", The Ones, Ch 1, §1, Lobha Sutta, which was quoted above: "Loyalty to the Buddha is loyalty with firm confidence. For a person with such confidence, be he monk, deity, maara or Brahma, it is impossible to steal. Someone who is steadfast in his loyalty would not give up his confidence in the Buddha or his teachings, even when in danger of life. Therefore, the Buddha said that a person with wisdom and gratefulness is a noble friend who is steadfast in loyalty." Loyalty to people other than the Buddha may be of different degrees and it may be limited: it may last long or it may last for only a moment. However, the loyalty of Buddhists towards the Buddha is forever, until the end of life. From the time of childhood until one has become an adult, one can from morning until night hear the chanting of texts recollecting the excellent qualities of the Triple Gem. This makes us realize the excellence of the Buddha's truthfulness in the development of the perfections so that he could penetrate the noble Truths and become a support beyond measure to living beings, to devas and mankind. ===to be continued, connie #77908 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 5:38 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World dacostacharles Hi all, My conclusion first -- Like all existence, the self is: (1) impermanent, (2) a source of suffering, and (3) compounded (has several components). Alyssa Ryvers: Body and mind, Self, the 5 aggregates, and the Ego all tend to be used interchangeably therefore they are basically synonymous. You said, "Letting go of the attachment to these ... are profound in that the attachment to my ego can be rather sweet, my body I respect, and my mind I appreciate and trust as well." This is true for most, that is why the real point of "no-self" is "no-self-centeredness," and its goal is "selflessness;" i.e., by thinking, acting, and speaking in ways that are not driven by the desires (of "I," "me," and "mine") over the needs and desires of "others." To believe the self does not exist (even-though "I," "me," and "mine" does) is to miss the real point of the teaching. Alex: You said, "Feeling" feels suffering. There is no need to include any sort of metaphysical (unprovable in experience) entity behind experience. Experience (of suffering or bliss) is merely that, experience." I have to ask, how can "feeling" arise if there is nothing for it to arise from? How can it can it experience considering it has no eyes, nose, ears,...? Why is it that I can not feel the pain that is in you? Feeling is not an entity on to its-self. It is a part of a complex whose components works together, like the very computer system you are using to reply to this email. You do not dismiss the computer's existence because you found out it is a compounded entity. And, it would be much more metaphysical to think "only Feeling feels," than to think "you feel." Howard: You said, "In samsara, there is the seeming of a self that suffers, ..., but that very seeming of self is delusive. In fact, within an as-yet-unawakened stream of phenomena, misperceptions, misunderstandings, cravings, aversions, attachments, and consequent suffering all arise, ..." I would have to say that the idea of "the 'seeming' of a self" is no different from everything else that exists. Therefore, isn't it more "reality based" to accept it like you accept the very computer you are working on? The idea of the self "as" an unawakened stream of phenomena, misperceptions, misunderstandings, cravings, aversions, attachments, and ... , where all consequent suffering arise, is some thing I could agree with. However, I would not consider it delusive, nor hiding in a stream of phenomena, misperceptions ... (1) it can be considered the stream; and (2) it is not delusive because most of its components are ever present and visible, only parts of it are hidden. Charles DaCosta __ #77909 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 5:45 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World dacostacharles Dear Wijeratna, I am referring to Paramatthadhamma as "Ultimate Truth". Charles DaCosta _____ >>>>>> > This is partly why the concept of Ultimate Truth is an illusion! DC: What do you refer to as "Ultimate Truth"? Paramatthadhamma or something else. >>>>>> #77910 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > May I but in to your conversation with DaCosta? > > I am interested in the following bit: > > > If there is no such thing as Self, then what experiences? What > suffers? > >>>> > > "Feeling" feels suffering. There is no need to include any sort of > metaphysical (unprovable in experience) entity behind experience. > Experience (of suffering or bliss) is merely that, experience. > > DC: But I feel suffering pain etc. That is ok, if atta is separate from you. But atta also refers to 'self' as in ordinary usage. > > Ultimately ordinary sense of "I am" is a delusion, and PAINFUL ONE AT THAT! When person becomes an Arahant, "I am" ceases. This is also true at deep levels of meditation. Without any thought, can the thought "I am" occur? Without any feeling, can the feeling "I am" occur? This shows that "I am" is DEPENDENTLY ARISEN event. As a fact of experience this delusion DOES exist, but only as a sickness of the mind which is painful. Of course the Buddha and his disciples frequently use nouns and pronouns etc etc. But they understand the pathways of language and they understand that what they say is merely a dependently arisen process without any underlying svabhava. Lots of metta, Alex #77911 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Alex: > > You said, "Feeling" feels suffering. There is no need to include any sort of > metaphysical (unprovable in experience) entity behind experience. > Experience (of suffering or bliss) is merely that, experience." > > > > I have to ask, how can "feeling" arise if there is nothing for it to arise from? How can it can it experience considering it has no eyes, nose, > ears,...? >>>>> Feeling arise due to causes and conditions. I do not deny that. But these causes and conditions are just that, impersonal processess. One does not need to include any sort of metaphysical entity beyons 5 aggregates. >>>>>>>> Why is it that I can not feel the pain that is in you? Feeling is > not an entity on to its-self. It is a part of a complex whose components works together, like the very computer system you are using to reply to this email. You do not dismiss the computer's existence because you found out it > is a compounded entity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buddha was teaching Anatta on pragmatic grounds. 5 Aggregates cannot be controlled, they are dependently arisen and as such one shouldn't cling to them or consider them "I me, mine". He did not talk about reality outside of those that we can experience. We talk only about our own sense-data. What lies outside of one's own cognizing (feelings, perceptions, consiousness) is not cognized and as such is practically irrelevant. Thus no need, and it is actually impossible to talk about something behind sense experience since it is outside of experience. Lots of Metta, Alex #77912 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 8:04 am Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 17, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina Welcome back. >Not > only kamma, but also citta, heat and nutrition produce rúpas of the > body. I should just check this on my own, but could you remind me briefly of the difference between kamma producing rupa and citta producing rupa? Another question - I have noticed when I walk fast for exercise, my left hand always ends up clenched - only my left hand. I think this is body intimation, there are cittas that are at work that cause this clenching to always happen. Is body intimation an example of rupa produced by citta? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil #77913 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 8:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A bit of a logical argument philofillet Hi Sarah > > Sarah, did I say "look for?" > ... > S: You often refer to the 'emotional comfort' you find, now in the suttas, > before in the Abhidhamma. Here are a couple of your past comments which > gave me this idea (there have been several others): Ouch, you are all over me on this one, Sarah. You got me. Yes, I was thinking afterwards that "look for" is fair enough. Whether we know it or not, we are all looking for comfort in Dhamma, I think. But it's nice when it comes in unexpected ways. For me, for example, Alysson's post on burning conditioned comfort today. There was a pleasant metta-ish feeling all day because of reflection on all of us, the all, all burning with greed, hatred and delusion. Just what is comforting in that? If there was real insight into it it would be terrifying, so I guess there is a pleasant attachment to reading and reflecting on suttas, or Abhidhamma, or whatever and having a kind of bookstore Buddhist wisdom. And that's fine. It conditions me to be a more gentle, more patient person and that's really all I'm interested in, for now at least. Deeper understanding may come along. Metta, Phil #77914 From: Elaine Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 8:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. - to Sukin shennieca Hi Sarah, Oh I really like your explanation on pain. Sarah: It's impossible not to have experienced painful feelings. However, they are brief conditioned dhammas that arise and fall away like all other conditioned dhammas. Is there painful bodily feeling appearing now? If not (for example, when there is seeing, hearing or other experiences) , then it is just thinking about it. Elaine: The way you explain it is like how an Arahant experiences pain. If you have mastered 'understanding' the arising and falling of pain like that, congrats. You are not afraid of pain anymore. Sadhu to you. Regards, Elaine #77915 From: Elaine Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 9:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychological and Bodily Continuity - Gethin and Questions? shennieca Hi Sarah, This is a very interesting question: "Do you understand it as a conditioned dhamma, nothing to do with 'Elaine' or 'Sarah'?" You mean really understanding of it? No. I don't understand it. How is it conditioned? What is the interaction between the 24 conditions? How does the condition rise and fall? That, I have not experienced for myself and so I don't understand it. How about you, do you understand the interactions of the 24 conditions without referring to the book? If you have, I have much respect for you. You say there is "No Sarah". What happens if someone is trying to snatch your purse away? What do you do? Are you willing to donate one of your kidneys to a stranger? There is No Sarah, right? Bhikkhu Thanissaro's teacher, Ajahn Lee said, no-self starts with being generous. The Buddha taught us about generosity, by giving away our things and letting go of our material goods, towards the end this practice will slowly develope into letting go of the sense of self. So, start by practising generosity, it will help us understand no self in the end. I cannot understand no self by "convincing" myself there is No Elaine. Maybe some people can do it, but this is not a common ability, not everyone can convince themselves that there is no self. No self have to be seen and experienced through bare awareness, by understanding the nature of impermanence. It is not as simple as saying/repeating 'the dhammas are rising and falling, therefore it is no self'. I cannot understand words because words are merely concepts. When you actually see/understand rising and falling of the dhamma with your mind, then it is a reality. I find it unhealthy to give my opinions of the dhamma this way, through back and forth e-m. If I don't reply to your next post, please take it as my understanding of the dhamma is incorrect. Thank you. Warm regards, Elaine -------------------- #77916 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. - to Sukin dcwijeratna Dear Elaine, My niece is a medical student. She is in the final year. One subject of their final year curriculum is psychology/psychiatry. One day she was talking about mental disorders and some thing called schizophrenia. I am not sure whether the spellings is ok. Now she was telling me those people live in an altered reality. They hear and see things which others can't. Even smells. As usual I had a rather lively discussion with her on the matter. But the net result is I have no way of deciding whether what I see is real or an 'altered reality'. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna P. S. Alagaddupama sutta in the MN is a nice one. #77917 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World dcwijeratna Dear Charles, Many thanks for the prompt reply. Of course, I am reading it along with your previous comment about about paramattha. I like delusion better than illusion. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77918 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World dcwijeratna Dear Alex, Many thanks for the explanation. I am much obliged. Lots of mettaa. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77919 From: Elaine Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 10:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (32) - one question shennieca Hi Connie, Thank you for providing us the excerpt from the book. ----- The paragraph below mentions a "we" that seem to "do something". Book: "We need courage so that we are diligent and turn away immediately from akusala. If we are too slow in turning away from akusala, it will later on become more difficult or even too late to do so, as must have happened life after life." Elaine: How can there be a "we" to do anything if everything is conditioned? Courage does not arise because of a "we", it arises with the right conditions. So why is the book saying "we need courage so that we are diligent and turn away immediately from akusala"? How can the "we" force this turning slow or fast? Isn't it an irony that the book writer can use the word "we" but when any other person uses the word "we", it is immediately shot down and told there is "no self" and "no we" to do anything and that everything is conditioned. I agree with the writer, "we need courage so that we are diligent...". Sincerely, Elaine P/S: hmmm, I'm thinking the teacher is right, the students reading the book got it wrong. ------------------------ L G SAGE wrote: Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 7: The Perfection of Truthfulness, taken from the book "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ The perfection of truthfulness should be developed together with pa~n~naa so that the noble Truths can be realized. We need courage so that we are diligent and turn away immediately from akusala. If we are too slow in turning away from akusala, it will later on become more difficult or even too late to do so, as must have happened life after life. We read in the Commentary to the "Itivuttaka", "As it was said", The Ones, Ch 1, §1, Lobha Sutta, which was quoted above: "Loyalty to the Buddha is loyalty with firm confidence. For a person with such confidence, be he monk, deity, maara or Brahma, it is impossible to steal. Someone who is steadfast in his loyalty would not give up his confidence in the Buddha or his teachings, even when in danger of life. Therefore, the Buddha said that a person with wisdom and gratefulness is a noble friend who is steadfast in loyalty." Loyalty to people other than the Buddha may be of different degrees and it may be limited: it may last long or it may last for only a moment. However, the loyalty of Buddhists towards the Buddha is forever, until the end of life. From the time of childhood until one has become an adult, one can from morning until night hear the chanting of texts recollecting the excellent qualities of the Triple Gem. This makes us realize the excellence of the Buddha's truthfulness in the development of the perfections so that he could penetrate the noble Truths and become a support beyond measure to living beings, to devas and mankind. ===to be continued, connie #77920 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta of "Self" and the World dcwijeratna Dear Charles, There is a lot of discussion going about "atta". Our understanding is that when 'attaa' is used it is a reference to the 'I'. First Person Singular Pronoun. Buddhist world view is 'anatta'. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77921 From: Elaine Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Psychological and Bodily Continuity - Gethin and Questions? shennieca Dear Sarah, all, Has anyone here experienced this "momentary mental factor which arises at every single instant, with every single consciousness (citta), falling away immediately?" I am hoping I will be able to realize the "..." in this lifetime, through doing bhavana (mental development). By the way, how do you 'see' this "momentary mental factor...." without bhavana? Can you type an e-mail and realize this momentary mental factor? Someone (I think RobK) once told me citta goes by soooo fast, it is impossible to imagine how fast it is, so how are you able to 'see' / 'understand' it, Sarah? Regards, Elaine ------------------------ #77922 From: Elaine Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. - to Sukin shennieca Hi DC, I know what you mean. I have a friend who once read a letter from a psychotic person (medically-confirmed psycho). After my friend read the letter, she told me that it was scary, the things written in the letter sounded so real, that it could even make her believe that it was her who is psychotic instead. Psychosis can be very subtle. Buddha said, every puthujjana is like a madman (to that extent). But some people have more and some have less of it. I used to dance like a mad-wild-person but now I know, it is 'insane' to do that. :-)) My teacher once asked, what is the worst handicap? We answered by saying being blind, deaf or crippled, but my teacher replied, 'insanity' is the worst handicap because an insane person cannot learn the dhamma. A blind, deaf and crippled person can still learn the dhamma but an insane person will never understand the Dhamma. May we get some enlightenment in this lifetime. May we be well and happy! May my teachers attain the bliss of Nibbana. Sincerely, Elaine -------------------- #77923 From: Elaine Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vsm 429 (was 'no subject') shennieca Hi Connie, Thanks a lot for your reply. I really appreciate it. I agree with what you said except for bhavana (mental development), without doing the m-thing. I don't know if it works. I don't have a teacher in Toronto whom I can ask these tough dhamma questions. :-(( "Is it possible to have mental development without doing meditations"? I think it is not possible but I really don't know. Have to ask someone who is 'wise' and it is getting harder to find someone who is 'wise' nowadays because the sasana is in decline. :-(( In the last paragraph, you said "It's 'us' that gets carried away..." I think that 'us' is the 'ego'. I know, everyone has ego (it is the sense of self-ness that everyone has). When a person realizes Anatta, there will be no more ego-istic-ness. I'm still a long way away from realizing it and hoping to get a glimpse of it soon. Warmest regards, Elaine -------------- #77924 From: Elaine Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 1:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. - to Dieter :-)) shennieca Hi Dieter, Sorry for the late reply. Thanks for typing out the Maha satipatthana sutta. :-)) Dieter: Though not an anapana sati expert, I suppose some people assume far more difficulties than the actual practise will show.. Elaine: I think so too. We have to give it a try and find out. I have not received any formal instructions on doing anapana sati, but I think concentrating on the breath is sometimes easier than concentration on the rising/falling of the abdomen. When I get restless watching the rising/falling, I'd switch to watching the breath, it is more relaxing. I'm still struggling with all the hindrances. Keep up with your anapanasati! :-)) Best wishes and warm regards, Elaine ------------------------------ #77925 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 4:52 pm Subject: Re: Hello philofillet Hi Alyssa > Phil wrote: > > "I can also see why the words above would appeal to a composer. A > little bit Great Balls of Fire-ish." > > > > > > Phil: The reference is far more mundane and personal. I encountered a lengthy illness where at one point I felt my skin everywhere was on fire; the feeling was very intense, and gave me an appreciation of the hell realms, and that the depth of suffering is as deep as though the Universe had a dark hole way at the bottom and suffering goes on past there. Hardly mundane! Thanks for telling us about it. Glad to hear the Dhamma helped you with that hardship. It's always good to hear about that. Metta, Phl #77926 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 7:17 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (32) - one question nichiconn Hi Elaine, What is it you're asking of me? No legitimate doctor would give you any of my body parts. I can offer and you're more than welcome to any of my answers/thoughts, but your immune system would still have to grapple with & stop rejecting them before they'd ever really become yours. Still, when a graft doesn't take, it's really nothing personal, is it? peace, connie #77927 From: Elaine Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (32) - one question shennieca Hi Connie, Opps! I actually wanted to pose the questions to other DSG members. It wasn't intended like a personal attack to you. I'm sorry if that e-m has offended you in any way. (((HUGS))). I'll post the question in another thread. Please continue with the Perfections Corner posts. Looking forward to reading them. :-)) Sincerely, Elaine ------------------ #77928 From: "shennieca" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 7:56 pm Subject: The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment shennieca Dear DSG members, This paragraph is taken from the book "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. (I cut and paste it from one of Connie's e-mails from the Perfections Corner thread). ------- The paragraph below mentions a "we" that seem to "do something". Book: "We need courage so that we are diligent and turn away immediately from akusala. If we are too slow in turning away from akusala, it will later on become more difficult or even too late to do so, as must have happened life after life." Elaine: How can there be a "we" to do anything if everything is conditioned? Courage does not arise because of a "we", it arises with the right conditions. So why is the book saying "we need courage so that we are diligent and turn away immediately from akusala"? How can the "we" force this turning slow or fast? Isn't it an irony that the book writer can use the word "we" but when any other person uses the word "we", it is immediately shot down and told there is "no self" and "no we" to do anything and that everything is conditioned? I agree with the book, "we need courage so that we are diligent..." What do you all think? Sincerely, Elaine #77929 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 7:59 pm Subject: Re: vsm 429 (was 'no subject') nichiconn Hey, Elaine - E: "Is it possible to have mental development without doing meditations"? C: Most children learn how to talk during the normal, daily course of events. Maybe there is some form of meditation going on there? Or in learning how to balance equations? Mundane examples, of course, but I have to say the answer to your question is yes, indeed. peace, connie #77930 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 8:13 pm Subject: Re: The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment philofillet Hi Elaine and all I've thought before that her book on the Perfections is much more invigorating, inspiring, encouraging than what she (in recorded talks) says, or her students say here. I don't know why that is. But I can still read it, or listen to Nina's husband Lodewijk read it on tape, with reservations.(Plenty of reservations) On the whole it feels a lot more in line with the way the Dhamma is taught elsewhere. Because it was originally for a Thai audience who, as you said in a post a few days ago (re people in your country, Malaysia) might be less likely to respond to a lot of talk about anatta? I don't know. Anyways, let's keep an open mind and keep listening to her. There is a lot we can learn from her approach even as we build confidence in the approach that we know to be more suitable for busy worldlings. Metta, Phil #77931 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 8:29 pm Subject: Re: The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment philofillet Hi again. After posting re Perfections, I picked it up and glanced inside, and the very first sentence I saw was this: "We should consider again and again where we have further developed patience in each situation of our life." This is the kind of Dhamma that is helfpul, in line with the "Self Examination" sutta AN X, 51 (we examine ourselves and see whether we are often prone to this or that defilment and vow to do soemthing about it.) I think it's impossible to think about "each situation of our life" without thinking about people and things and whether we deal with them, respond to them, in a wholesome way or not. But guaranteed someone will respond to this post to explain why the above sentence is indeed about nothing but paramattha dhammas, with no control etc. You can count on it as sure as Christmas! (I like Christmas decorations and Christmas songs, and they are appearing in Japan now so I am happy.) Metta, Phil #77932 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 4:20 pm Subject: Poems XXIII * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! <....> [1] See AN 1.49-52, Pabhassara Sutta, Luminous here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.049.than.html "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2} [2] Sankhara (mental fashionings, fabrications, or formations), see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#sankhara [3] See MN 19, Dvedhavitakka Sutta, Two Sorts of Thinking here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.019.than.html#habit "And as I remained thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, thinking imbued with renunciation…non-ill will…harmlessness arose. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with renunciation…non-ill will…harmlessness has arisen in me; and that leads neither to my own affliction, nor to the affliction of others, nor to the affliction of both. It fosters discernment, promotes lack of vexation, & leads to Unbinding. If I were to think & ponder in line with that even for a night... even for a day... even for a day & night, I do not envision any danger that would come from it, except that thinking & pondering a long time would tire the body. When the body is tired, the mind is disturbed; and a disturbed mind is far from concentration.' So I steadied my mind right within, settled, unified, & concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind would not be disturbed. [4] See AN 1:16 - 321 Ekadhammapali here http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara1/1-ek\ anipata/016-Ekadhammapali-e.html 321. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of urine, ... re ... saliva, ... re ... pus, ... re ... blood smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking* even for the fraction of a second. * I do not specify thinking even for a short second. 'appamattakampi bhavam na vannemi' Always thoughts seek connections in the past, for the future or in the present. The bhikkhu who aims extinction should not advocte thinking, as thoughts prolong the journey in existence. [5] Samsara (the round of rebirth), see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#samsara <...> #77933 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 8:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vsm 429 (was 'no subject') dcwijeratna Dear Elaine, My two cents worth. Re: Your exchange of ideas with L G SAGE on "meditation" 1. "Bhaavanaa" is a clearly defined term in the Dhamma. It means development cultivation etc. 2. Really, the cultivation of the Fourth Noble Truth-The Noble Eightfold Path. In the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta, the FNT (dukkha-nirodha-gaaminii-pa.tipadaa), is to be developed, (bhaavetabba.m); when it is developed (bhaavita.m) one is enlightened (Bodhi). 3. All these words are derived from the word bhaaveti. To develop, increase, cultivate; literally to cause to become. 4. One other point relevant to the discussion. The First Noble Truth is about the "human being". (Sankhittena pancuupadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa). And that encompasses everything, everything; absolutely everything that we know and speak of (See Sabba sutta, I think in SN). 5. It is to do with young, old, moving , not moving as in "kara.niiya metta sutta"). So developing any skill is 'bhaavanaa'. Please note: developing a skill and not learning. If the skill confirms to the Noble-Eightfold-path. Then it is kusala. Really attha-kusala. 6. In Dhamma, meditation, is cultivation of the mind "samaadhi". But meditation also refers to techniques of mind-culture-some of them totally outside the Path. For example, meditation in other religious and non-religious traditions. I hope these ideas would prove useful for you discussion. Just the Four Noble Truths. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna P. S. Dear Elaine, when there is no exchange of ideas, give up. [Not with referennce to this conversation]. The purpose of discussion is then lost. Again all words are from Dhamma and not Abhidhamma. So Dhamma is the scope. #77934 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 8:57 pm Subject: Re: The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment philofillet Hi again again Elaine, thanks to you (as to Han earlier) to pointing me back to this book. I opened the book again, to the chapter on Patience, and the first thing I saw was this. (Honestly!) "It is true that someone who is impatient is not dear and pleasing to many people, he is full of malevolence and he may cause quarreling, injuring fighting, harming and killing. WHen he is irritated and displeased because of an unpleasant experience, he should know that accumulated inclinations condition him to be bad-tempered and impatient.." Ph: I always vow to stop attacking AS, but there is not enough patience and I get back into it again and again. Not bad-tempered in this case, but impatient. We have to be patient with good things, such as Dhamma, as well as with hardships. "...and the he will receive the harmful effect of his own akusala." Ph: "He" will receive the harmful effect, and "he should know" this. "I" should know better than to keep stepping into this stuff, but in this case...no control. The desire (wholeseome and unwholesome mixed) to discuss Dhamma wins out! Hallelulah! Metta, Phil p.s I write all this still feeling very grateful for having come across AS and her teaching, because it really is radical, and it is good to stay open to the radical. Thanks AS! OK I will shut up now, off to work. Metta, Phil #77935 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 9:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A bit of a logical argument sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > Yes, I was thinking afterwards that "look for" is fair enough. > Whether we know it or not, we are all looking for comfort in Dhamma, > I think. ... S: I'm pursuing this a little because it is something you've referred to on a number of occasions and it may have some significance with regard to various expectations and disappointments you find in what you read and hear. I mentioned that this looking for/finding emotional comfort in Dhamma didn't ring a bell for me. Last night I conducted a survey in Hong Kong. I asked Jon if it rang any kind of bell for him at all and he expressed the same sentiment as I had. Certainly I've never heard him even hint at anything along these lines at all. So there you have it, 100% of us here either don't look for/find emotional comfort in the Dhamma (or else the 100% are seriously deluded:-). .... > But it's nice when it comes in unexpected ways. For me, for > example, Alysson's post on burning conditioned comfort today. There > was a pleasant metta-ish feeling all day because of reflection on > all of us, the all, all burning with greed, hatred and delusion. ... S: I thought it was the 12 ayatanas, the all, that were blazing...blazing on account of their impermanence. All truly unsatisfactory and certainly not worth clinging to. .... > Just what is comforting in that? If there was real insight into it > it would be terrifying, ... S: I don't think so. When there is any wisdom, there's no fear. ... > so I guess there is a pleasant attachment to > reading and reflecting on suttas, or Abhidhamma, or whatever and > having a kind of bookstore Buddhist wisdom. And that's fine. It > conditions me to be a more gentle, more patient person and that's > really all I'm interested in, for now at least. Deeper understanding > may come along. ... S: I think it's a degree of understanding, rather than the pleasant attachment which conditions the appreciation and growth of more gentle and patient qualities, especially metta. As you say, deeper understanding may or may not develop. We know it depends on conditions, rather than any wishing or special intention. I'm glad to see, for example, that you're still carefully considering the Visuddhimagga, Conditions, Rupas and other readings in spite of declared other intentions:-). Metta, Sarah ======= #77936 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 9:11 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (32) - one question nichiconn Thanks, Elaine, No apology needed. I didn't take your post as an attack on anyone. I just thought you sounded a bit sarcastic, which seems to me to be a pretty common way of expressing frustration or lack of patience or wishing things were somehow different, etc. -- kind of a little temper tantrum, isn't it! Yikes. My apologies if I misread you. In any case, I guess we're all just doing the best we can... all according to conditions, of course... and have to let it go at that, eh? best wishes, connie #77937 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 9:18 pm Subject: Re: A bit of a logical argument philofillet Hi Sarah > S: I'm pursuing this a little because it is something you've referred to > on a number of occasions and it may have some significance with regard to > various expectations and disappointments you find in what you read and > hear. I appreciate that! You're a good friend. OK, let's talk it through. I've been too vocal recently, so I'll be away for a week or so. (ha! se you again tomorrow) Talk to you again then. Maybe I can combine some points from Sukin's posts so I can tackle both of you bad boys at once. :) Metta, Phil #77938 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 9:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment sarahprocter... Hi Phil & (Elaine & all), --- Phil wrote: > "...WHen he is irritated and > displeased because of an unpleasant experience, he should know that > accumulated inclinations condition him to be bad-tempered and > impatient.." ... S: I think it's important to realise this, otherwise we go on and on making excuses and never understanding the problems for what they are. For example, in India, a friend mentioned being irritable due to some sickness. We always tend to think the problem is some situation such as sickness, other people, work or something else. Actually, it comes down to the accumulated inclinations. This is an example of how it's helpful to understand about conditions, such as natural decisive support condition. Slowly, there can be more truthfulness with realities now, as Connie quoted in the chapter on sacca-parami. .... > Ph: I always vow to stop attacking AS, but there is not enough > patience and I get back into it again and again. Not bad-tempered in > this case, but impatient. We have to be patient with good things, such > as Dhamma, as well as with hardships. ... S: I know - the hardships of hearing from some of us:-)) .... > "...and the he will receive the harmful effect of his own akusala." > > > Ph: "He" will receive the harmful effect, and "he should know" this. > "I" should know better than to keep stepping into this stuff, but in > this case...no control. The desire (wholeseome and unwholesome mixed) > to discuss Dhamma wins out! Hallelulah! ... S: That's exactly it - kusala, akusala, kusala, akusala.....no control, as you say. It's not a question of changing the situation, but of understanding these 'no-controll-ed' dhammas which have arisen already! Thanks, Phil. In your own way, you have quite a conciliatory touch:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #77939 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 9:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A bit of a logical argument sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Sukin), --- Phil wrote: >....Maybe I can combine some > points from Sukin's posts so I can tackle both of you bad boys at > once. :) ... S: I know - patience with all those hardships again:-)) Metta, Sarah ====== #77940 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Nov 1, 2007 9:37 pm Subject: Re: The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment sukinderpal Hi Phil, You are right about one thing, re: > guaranteed someone will respond to this post to explain why the > above sentence is indeed about nothing but paramattha dhammas, with > no control etc. You can count on it as sure as Christmas! (I like > Christmas decorations and Christmas songs, and they are appearing in > Japan now so I am happy.) :-) Only I won't be taking about "dhammas / no control etc." here. But in response also to your comment in the other post, re: "Because it was originally for a Thai audience who, as you said in a post a few days ago (re people in your country, Malaysia) might be less likely to respond to a lot of talk about anatta? I don't know." Firstly, A. Sujin's Thai audience here is the same as the one who listen to, and understand the same stuff her students of DSG listen to, and understand. Secondly, as often pointed out with reference to the Buddha himself, that he "understands the parlance of the world without misapprehending it", the same principle applies here. I personally have no resistance at all to A. Sujin's or any of her students' use of "I", "we" etc. and relating this to everything "Dhamma". In fact I think in many cases such use is even preferable to the `language of Abhidhamma', since it works as a short hand pointing to the same realities. In other words conventional designations can be a condition to understanding realities for those who do understand the difference. The problem is with those who don't `really' understand, who though may have some idea of what it means to distinguish between concept and reality, still cling to the idea of "self". This results in statements such as you make below: > After posting re Perfections, I picked it up and glanced inside, > and the very first sentence I saw was this: "We should consider > again and again where we have further developed patience in each > situation of our life." This is the kind of Dhamma that is helfpul, > in line with the "Self Examination" sutta AN X, 51 (we examine > ourselves and see whether we are often prone to this or that > defilment and vow to do soemthing about it.) > > I think it's impossible to think about "each situation of our > life" without thinking about people and things and whether we deal > with them, respond to them, in a wholesome way or not. Apparently you "want" to be able to *do something* and this is why you interpret A. Sujin and the Buddha the way you do. Something to be of value does not have to be seen as being connected with a `self' who can have it or make it happen. In fact bringing `self' in makes the whole thing other than what it is, and what was meant to be a statement about and an encouragement to "kusala" of one kind may turn out to be an encouragement for tanha, mana or ditthi. :-/ Metta, Sukin #77941 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 12:34 am Subject: India, Nepal memories - Oct. 2007 christine_fo... Hello all, Having just returned from the Pilgrimage to India with 120 Theravada Buddhists, mostly Thais with about ten of us farangs (incl. Jon and Sarah), I thought I'd tell you of a couple of my remembrances. I think I may have already mentioned visiting Sankasia where the Buddha returned to earth after teaching the Abhidhamma to his mother in heaven - and feeling despondent at the deplorable state of the unrestored site. One day, we visited the Mahabodhi Temple at Varanasi to pay respect to the Buddha Relics. After the ceremony and the lining up to view and be photographed with the relics, I wandered outside and over to the shrine where the Blessed One Set in Motion the Wheel of Dhamma. The others in the group stayed inside the temple. The shrine has many large plaques with the Sutta in various languages, and a large ancient Bodhi Tree festooned with Flags and in its own gated and walled enclosure. There was another group reading the plaques so I went to the opposite side of the shrine where there was no-one else. I was contemplating what I could see and remembering with gratitude occasion for the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn...6.011.than.html An Indian man came up to me and politely greeted me. He said he could see I was a Buddhist (from the Mala given by the Mahabodhi Society) and asked if I would like to go inside the enclosure of the Bodhi Tree. I said yes please. He produced some keys, unlocked the door, and let me in, locking the door afterwards. He collected half a dozen leaves from the ground under the tree and put them in a plactic packet for me, took a photo of me under the tree, and then said "Oh Madam - I think you should circumnambulate the blessed Tree now - in memory of the Lord Buddha's first sermon". And so I did. Then he let me out, I offered deep thanks and a suitable grateful donation, he graciously accepted both, and we both went our separate ways. I won't mention (very often) the heat, the incessant car and truck horns, the new freeways with herds of camels, buffalos, intrepid truck-drivers going against the flow on the wrong side of the road because there is less traffic there, bicyclists stopping to have a chat in the fast lane, and our group toilet activities in open fields (I still haven't properly got the hang of wrapping a length of cloth around as a shield ) ~ plenty of time to watch the rise and fall of dosa. I believe you need to be either totally mad or very skilfull to drive in Bihar or Utter Pradesh ... never did figure out which one our bus driver was. (Though one westerner who has worked in Asia in NGO's for 30 years and lives in Thailand, did run from the back of the bus after dark and demand that someone stop the bus and stop the driver before he killed us all!!! He had been driving since 6.00 a.m. and it was 9.00 p.m. without a relief driver.) One the last night in Bodh Gaya, the group presented to the MahaBodhi Society the funds donated to assist in the their activities. Among many other charities, the donation also kept the lights at the Bodhgaya stupa and temple on for a month, and a senior member of the group was given the privilege of turning them on. Previously we had provided a meal, robes and necessary requisites for each of 120 monks, half Theravada and half Tibetan, Chinese. In gratitude, 60 or more mainly Sinhalese monks came to Bodhgaya and - sitting just to the left of the Bodhi Tree - chanted in Pali the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta - the chanting was quite magnificent by lamplight in the very warm evening - with crowds of Hindus, Buddhists of all traditions ... some doing the three steps and a prostration practice, some walking and chanting continually, backpacking tourists, monks in every colour and type of robe, grasshoppers, moths and dogs. As usual, the local Moslem call to prayer echoed over the site at sunset with the assistance of loud speakers. A political meeting was being held outside the grounds, also with loud speakers. India = Sound. During a dhamma discussion, behind and to the right of the Temple, we placed candles all around the scene. There are strict rules about candles - none to be carried around the Stupa unless sheltered in candle Lamps, none to be placed on the Temple or walls (as is usually the custom with Thais). None to be left unattended anywhere. For those who requested ~ candles (sorry, not butter lamps) were lit for you and placed in a special covered area after the Wien Tien. The Wien Tien was quite thrilling .... apart from our large group, all the monks were given candle lamps, and many passing buddhists as well. A very long line of pilgrims and Sangha carrying the lamps wound around the Temple three times and then went through the grounds to where the candles and lamps could be left in a glass walled covered area. The long line dotted with light was something to see as it wended its way through the grounds. We had our own loud speaker this time broadcasting the sounds of Refuge ~ Buddham saranam gacchami; Dhammam saranam gacchami; Sangham saranam gacchami. Since coming back, still trailing clouds of memories, everyday life seems repetitive and pointless - fairly much the same as always, when you think about it. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #77942 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some basic Sutta&Abhidhamma questions. sarahprocter... Dear Scott & Alex, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: Not much doubt where Horner stood on Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, to add > a bit to the quotes in which she analyses the word 'abhidhamma'. This > seems polemical. Why don't you pursue a study of the texts > themselves, questioning the material directly? ... S: I appreciated Alex's detailed post #77218 and your reply #77248 They both contain a lot of interesting material. Alex, I'm glad you're still discussing the Dhamma with friends here. Sometime you may also wish to look at a section in U.P. under 'Abhidhamma- origins'. As Scott suggested, in the end we study the texts directly, consider and question and come to our own conclusions. I was fortunate to visit Miss Horner 30 years ago, whilst buying a copy of the Atthasalini. She could not have been more encouraging of my interest in the Dhamma, inc. the Abhidhamma. You may like to take a look at this post I wrote about meeting her. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/30426 I sent a similar letter to her Memoriam when requested to do so. In it I quote the passage from her intro to the comy to Buddhavamsa (Chronicle of the Buddhas) which Robert K and Nina like to re-quote. Metta, Sarah ========== #77943 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 198, 199 and Tiika. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, I think this further quote is very helpful: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > As we read further on in this chapter, Vism.XVII, 302. 3. [As to > prevention]: > prevents seeing a maker; the clause 'With formations as condition, > consciousness' prevents seeing the transmigration of a self; the > clause 'With consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality' > prevents perception of compactness because it shows the analysis of > the basis conjectured to be 'self'; and the clauses beginning 'With > mentality-materiality as condition, the sixfold base' prevent seeing > any self that sees, etc., cognizes, touches, feels, craves, clings, > becomes, is born, ages and dies. So this Wheel of Becoming should be > known 'as to prevention' of wrong seeing appropriately in each > instance.> .... S: Our understanding may only be little, but still we need to hear and consider over and over again that there are only these conditioned dhammas. No self anywhere. If we don't hear and reflect on this often, the direct understanding of impermanent dhammas will never develop. Metta, Sarah ========= #77944 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 5:06 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (70) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 3 13. Viisatinipaato 5. Subhaakammaaradhiitutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa txt: 345. "Lobhana.m madana~nceta.m, mohana.m rajava.d.dhana.m; saasa"nka.m bahu-aayaasa.m, natthi cettha dhuva.m .thiti. 346. "Ettha rattaa pamattaa ca, sa.mkili.t.thamanaa naraa; a~n~nama~n~nena byaaruddhaa, puthuu kubbanti medhaga.m. 347. "Vadho bandho parikleso, jaani sokapariddavo; kaamesu adhipannaana.m, dissate byasana.m bahu.m. 348. "Ta.m ma.m ~naatii amittaava, ki.m vo kaamesu yu~njatha; jaanaatha ma.m pabbajita.m, kaamesu bhayadassini.m. 349. "Na hira~n~nasuva.n.nena, parikkhiiyanti aasavaa; amittaa vadhakaa kaamaa, sapattaa sallabandhanaa. 350. "Ta.m ma.m ~naatii amittaava, ki.m vo kaamesu yu~njatha; jaanaatha ma.m pabbajita.m, mu.n.da.m sa"nghaa.tipaaruta.m. Pruitt: 343. This is being greedy, and [it is] intoxication, stupefaction, increase of defilement, [being] full of suspicions, and [having] many troubles. There is no permanent stability here. 344. Many men who are infatuated with this and careless, with defiled minds, being obstructed one by another, make a quarrel. 345. Slaughter, bonds, calamity, loss, grief, and lamentation - much misfortune is seen for those who have fallen into sensual pleasures. 346. Why do you, my relatives, like enemies, urge me on towards sensual pleasures? You know that I have gone forth, seeing fear in sensual pleasures. 347. The taints do not diminish because of gold, coined or uncoined. Sensual pleasures are enemies, murderers, hostile, binding with ropes. 348. Why do you, my relatives, like enemies, urge me on towards sensual pleasures? You know that I have gone forth, with shaven head, clad in the outer robe. RD: Whereby greed is aroused and wantonness, Infatuation and all fleshly lusts, Whence cometh fear for loss and many a care: Here is no ground for lasting steadfastness. (343) Here men, heedless and maddened with desires, Corrupt in mind, by one another let And hindered, strive in general enmity. (344) Death, bonds, and torture, ruin, grief; and woe Await the slaves of sense, and dreadful doom. (345) Why herewithal, my kinsmen - nay, my foes - Why yoke me in your minds with sense-desires? Know me as one who saw, and therefore fled, The perils rising from the life of sense. (346) Not gold nor money can avail to purge The poison of the deadly AAsavas. Ruthless and murderous are sense-desires; Foemen of cruel spear and prison-bonds. (347) Why herewithal, my kinsmen - nay, my foes - Why yoke me in your minds with sense-desires? Know me as her who fled the life of sense, Shorn of her hair, wrapt in her yellow robe. (348) === to be continued, connie #77945 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 5:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some basic Sutta&Abhidhamma questions. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I realise that you know all this: S: "...in the end we study the texts directly, consider and question and come to our own conclusions..." Scott: Visuddhimagga VII (2) Recollection of the Dhamma "The Dhamma is well proclaimed by the Blessed One, visible here and now, not delayed (timeless), inviting of inspection, onward-leading, and directly experienceable by the wise..." Sincerely, Scott. #77946 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] India, Nepal memories - Oct. 2007 sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Thanks for sharing your interesting and detailed account. (My notes along the road were rather scattered and rushed*). Just a couple of comments - - Christine Forsyth wrote: > I > think I may have already mentioned visiting Sankasia where the > Buddha returned to earth after teaching the Abhidhamma to his mother > in heaven - and feeling despondent at the deplorable state of the > unrestored site. ... S: I don't think you've mentioned it, but no need to feel despondent. Having seen the extraordinary restoration and excavation work at other sites (most dramatically, Lumbini) in recent years, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before Sankasia gets the same treatment. Lumbini consisted of just an overgrown pillar 20 years or so ago amongst the fields. Now we have the excavated sites of the various monastery buildings, the exact spot and stone marking the Buddha's birth and all the beautiful grounds. Similar works have been done at Kusinara, Savatthi and Sarnath as you know. Even Bodh Gaya has been transformed (not for the better in all respects, perhaps). Of course, in the case of Sankasia, it's really off the beaten-track and without a LOT of respect for the Abhidhamma, who'd bother to make that track? Even so, there is now the nearby Sri Lankan temple, the road has improved and there are signs it's more visited, I think. <...> > Since coming back, still trailing clouds of memories, everyday life > seems repetitive and pointless - fairly much the same as always, > when you think about it. ... S: Sounds familiar:-). A dream, that's all! Thanks again for sharing... Metta, Sarah * the last of them was also sent from Bodh Gaya if you or Nina wish to see it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/77664 And here are a couple of the others: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/77461 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/77572 #77947 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vsm 429 (was 'no subject') dcwijeratna My Two Cents Worth, Dear Elaine, I picked up the following from something you wrote: Di.t.the di.t.thamatta.m bhavissati ....etc is also in the famous Baahiya Sutta. It is in Udaana, as I remember. The advise here, as we have learnt, is to stop at the mere perception or cognition. Let me see whether I can make myself clearer. Say you hear a sound, then there is only the sound. Nothing more. You don't think anything like. Ah that is a piece of music by ....(my favourite composer). Oh that is that miserable dog; he has started barking again, I have to do something about that etc. If you starting to contemplate about its nature, you go on that merry go round. Moment you start thinking about it 'matta.m' [mere, just, only--the meaning is only to restrict it to the event, the contact, not to follow through]. This is advice for meditators to calm the mind. Analysing things with respect to anicca, dukkha, anatta is vipassannaa. Here you keep on looking at the object and noting these characteristics. As you keep looking, things start happening. It doesn't make sense to talk about this process beyond this point. Dhammas are to be experienced, they are not in the books. And mark my word, they can never be learnt from books. For daily life, that is when we go about our daily business, the adivse is "sati-sampaja~n~na." Basically, be mindful of what you are doing--"abhikkante pa.tikkante sampajaanakaarii hoti, aalokite vilokite..." If you are walking forward, backward be conscious only about it. Don't allow your thoughts to stray away from that activity. Any way you get all the details in the satipa.t.thaana sutta. For a good introduction, see "Heart of Buddhist meditation" by Ven. Nyanaponika. That is the end of my two cents worth. (for the day) "Buddha said to Malukyaputta- “Ettha ca te Mālukyaputta dittha suta muta viññātesu dhammesu ditthe ditthamattam bhavissati, sute sutamattam bhavissati, mute mutamattam bhavissati, viññāte viññātamattam bhavissati.” At the moment of seeing, if you are unmindful of the impermanence and insubstantiality of conditioned things, then defilements invade your heart and remain there. If you are mindful every moment of seeing diligently, you will realize that it arises just to disappear. When its true nature of impermanence is known, it can no longer torment you. (I have paraphrased this paragraph from A Discourse on the Malukyaputta Sutta, by Mahasi Sayadaw. This article can be obtained from the internet from Bhikkhu Pesala’s website)." D. G. D. C. Wijeratna P. S. By the way, our friend M is a great character. There are two suttas devoted to him in MN. Have a go at them also. #77948 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 7:06 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 17, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, The cittas which arise are dependent on many different conditions. Cittas succeed one another without any interval. Seeing arises time and again and after seeing has fallen away akusala cittas usually arise. We cling to visible object, or we take it for a being or a person. Defilements arise because they have been accumulated and they are carried on, from moment to moment, from life to life. They are a natural decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya-paccaya, for akusala citta arising at this moment. Akusala has become our nature, but if we see the disadvantage of akusala there are conditions for the development of right understanding which can eradicate akusala. We are so used to the idea of seeing living beings, people and animals, and we do not realize that we are deluded about reality because of our accumulated ignorance and wrong view. When we watch T.V. and we see people moving, we know that there are no people there. There are rapidly changing projected images on a screen and this gives us the illusion that there are people who are acting. These images are merely different colours which appear through the eyesense and then we know the meaning of what we see, we think of concepts on account of what we see. The same happens in real life. There is seeing of visible object and then we take what we see for people or things which last. Persons are not real in the ultimate sense, no matter whether we see them on a screen or in the world around us. The world with people, living beings or things is real in conventional sense. The Buddha taught that there is ultimate truth and conventional truth. We do not have to avoid thinking of conventional truth, of concepts of people and things; we could not lead our daily life without thinking of concepts and dealing with concepts. We have to know what the different things and matters are we are dealing with time and again. We have to pay attention to the people we meet in our social life, we could not give assistance to them without thinking of them in terms of concepts. When we develop generosity we need to think of the gift we wish to give and of the people to whom we are handing the gift. We could not develop kindness and compassion without thinking of people. However, we should know the difference between conventional truth and ultimate truth. ******* Nina. #77949 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 7:37 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, In the course of time the holy places were neglected for many centuries. Bodhgaya and Sarnath were in a deplorable condition and wild beasts were roaming there. The Head Monk in Sarnath, the Ven. Kahawatte Sri Sumedha, told us about Anagarika Dharmapala who made great efforts to restore the holy places at the beginning of the twentieth century. After a life-long struggle to overcome all problems and legal battles the temple at Sarnath was built under his supervision, and relics of the Buddha that were given to the Mahå- Bodhi Society were placed in this temple in a vault underneath the pedestal of the Buddha image. When we were in Sarnath we had the opportunity to pay respect to the Buddhaís relics which are shown only once a year. However, on the occasion of our visit they were taken out by the Singhalese monks who are guarding them and they were placed on Acharn Sujin’s head. After that we all had the opportunity to pay respect. Another holy place that was until recently neglected is the place where the Buddha preached the Mahå-Satipathåna Sutta, the Discourse on Mindfulness. This is in Kailash, in the region which was formerly called Kuru. The place is marked by a rock with an old inscription of King Asoka, stating his conviction that both the low and the high, the poor and the rich can follow the Path of the Dhamma. A concrete roof has been erected over this rock. Even two years ago we had to step over dirt to reach this stone. I had written about the state of this place to a friend and former colleague of us of the Indian diplomatic service, Mr. S.K. Singh. He visited the people living around this place, belonging to the lowest caste, the caste of the “Untouchables”. He spoke to the families, especially to the mothers, explaining that the parents should educate their children in good morality according to the principles of the Lord Buddha. He persuaded the Department of Archaeology and the New Delhi Development Authority to take care of the place and as a consequence a high iron fence has been erected around it and a caretaker has been engaged to clean up the grounds. The Forest Department arranged for trees to be planted and we could see the young trees placed in pots. Lodewijk, my husband, and I were happily surprised of the change in outlook of this place and are most grateful to S.K. Singh. As soon as the group from Thailand arrived in Delhi we told them about this and Acharn Sujin wanted to go there immediately. We all climbed up to the old rock with the inscription and paid respect. In this place the development of satipatthåna has been explained which is specifically the teaching of the Buddha; no other teacher has taught this. Mindfulness of all realities, mental phenomena and physical phenomena, as they appear in our daily life is the greatest respect shown to the Buddha. Acharn Sujin spoke untiringly and with great patience about the development of right understanding. I am most grateful for the way she has given us guidance by explaining about the realities appearing at the present moment. I greatly appreciate all her Dhamma talks given day after day. ***** Nina. #77950 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 7:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] India, Nepal memories - Oct. 2007 nilovg Dear Christine, Thank you for your lively impressions. I meant to ask you something, if it is not too personal. I heard that you asked Kh Sujin a question and you said you were releaved since it was something weighing on your mind. Would you share this advice? But no need if you do not want to respond to this. Nina. Op 2-nov-2007, om 8:34 heeft Christine Forsyth het volgende geschreven: > Since coming back, still trailing clouds of memories, everyday life > seems repetitive and pointless - fairly much the same as always, > when you think about it. #77951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 17, no 1. nilovg Dear Phil. good questions. Op 1-nov-2007, om 16:04 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I should just check this on my own, but could you remind me briefly > of the difference between kamma producing rupa and citta producing > rupa? ------- N: Kamma produces the sense-bases and the heartbase, which are the physical bases of citta. Also life faculty and sex. Citta produces ruupas, such as the pure octads (the eight inseparables), the three vikara ruupas of lightness, plasticity, wieldiness, speech intimation, bodily intimation. (See Survey, p. 31, 32). Did you give this book away? You can still find it on Rob K's web. ------- > > Ph: Another question - I have noticed when I walk fast for > exercise, my > left hand always ends up clenched - only my left hand. I think this is > body intimation, there are cittas that are at work that cause this > clenching to always happen. Is body intimation an example of rupa > produced by citta? ------ N: You do not want to convey anything to someone else by it, so, it is not body intimation. It seems lack of lightness, plasticity, wieldiness. These are not only produced by citta, also by nutrition and heat. If they are produced only by citta, the body could not move. Thus you see that there are complex conditions for the movement of the body. There is no self who can say: let my hand not be clenched. It is beyond ocntrol and this reminds us of anattaa. Nina. #77952 From: Elaine Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vsm 429 (was 'no subject') shennieca Hello DC, Thank you. There is too much sufferings if we are on the merry-go-round, samsara is too long. Thank goodness for a way out, "when the nature of impermanence (of conditioned things) is known, it can no longer torment us". I'll look for Maalukyaputta in the MN. Thank you. :-)) Warm regards, Elaine ----------------------------- #77953 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 8:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (32) nilovg Dear Connie, Phil, Elaine, Op 1-nov-2007, om 13:23 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > The perfection of truthfulness should be developed together with > pa~n~naa so that the noble Truths can be realized. We need courage > so that we are diligent and turn away immediately from akusala. If > we are too slow in turning away from akusala, it will later on > become more difficult or even too late to do so, as must have > happened life after life. ------- N: the word 'we' need not cause problems. We keep in mind the Anatta lakkhanasutta. There are kusala citta and cetasikas performing their functions. We need the whole of the teachings, including Abhidhamma, for the correct understanding of the teachings. Shame and fear of blame, hiri and ottappa, see the danger of akusala. If there are no hiri and otappa there cannot be any turning away. We need truthfulness, so that we do not mislead ourselves, taking for kusala what is lobha. Sati is non-forgetful of kusala and pa~n~naa knows the true characteristic of kusala and of akusala, it knows them as non-self. Nina. #77954 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 9:08 am Subject: to Han, nilovg Dear Han (and Sarah), Sarah wrote: Han ¡ I have a special gift for when I next see you: some fine beads presented to us by the bhikkhus in the temple when we saw the relic in Sarnath.' Han, I was thinking so much of you, touching these beads we received. Sarah said that you would write more on your dialogue with Kh Sujin. ------- Sarah, I read your Ecards with interest. BTW, if you have time, would you continue writing on Alan Driver's funeral? You broke off before going on a trip. I thought there was still more to come. Nina. #77955 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 9:54 am Subject: Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. - to Dieter :-)) moellerdieter Hi Elaine, ..... Nina, Sarah and all, you wrote : Sorry for the late reply. Thanks for typing out the Maha satipatthana sutta. :-)) D: better late than never .. I recognised that you are quite busy .. :-) I copied the text as well to remind that it does not need years of study to sit down , calm down ( observing the breath) and contemplate body, feeling, mind and mind objects, described by one of the most important Suttas of the Canon. My impression of DSG so far is, that some of our friends are somehow afraid for reasons I still do not understand , to do just that what the Buddha described as a training for the development of mind (fullness) Elaine: I think so too. We have to give it a try and find out. I have not received any formal instructions on doing anapana sati, but I think concentrating on the breath is sometimes easier than concentration on the rising/falling of the abdomen. D: yes, we have to give a try and find out what works best for us.. as I mentioned , depending on one's preference : one may prefer to watch the sense impression at the upper lip , nostrils or at the (rising and falling ) abdomen , all are breath related. E: When I get restless watching the rising/falling, I'd switch to watching the breath, it is more relaxing. I'm still struggling with all the hindrances. D: a matter of practise , isn't it? E: Keep up with your anapanasati! :-)) D: you too :-)) and try what is told us by the Maha Satípatthana Sutta (e.g. http://buddho.org/canon/digha/dn22.php ) with Metta Dieter #77956 From: "Evelyn" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 11:48 am Subject: A few thoughts eviebgreen Hi everyone, it has been awhile that I have posted but my schedule is just now getting a little less crazy for me. Had two weeks worth of garage sales and did not sell a third of the volume that needed to be sold all together, so beginning now to ready everything for donation. I had a few questions that have been on my mind while being away and have had quite a few interesting discussions with other people about Buddhism and how it relates to other religions. I know what I believe but want to know what you all think of my questions and feel free to add your own thoughts or questions in. Question number 1: Do you believe that Buddhist people worship the Buddha, that Buddhist people worship the statue of Buddha??? Therefore the worship of Buddha is similar to worship of a God-like being, or that of a God. OR Is there no worship of Buddha and rather it is the concept of the teachings of the Buddha??? Question number 2: In life we can either achieve enlightenment and therefore attain nirvana; or we can be reborn to another life or go back many lives and work our way back up the chain again. Here is the question. Do you believe that we, as humans, make the decision that if we are not ready for enlightenment and nirvana, that we decide to be reborn as human or as a lesser form like a fish??? Do we as humans decide to be reborn due to our karma or do we just repeat our human lives until we achieve enlightenment and nirvana??? Question number 3: Who else has achieved enlightenment and nirvana other than the Buddha? Question number 4: As it is written, Buddha before his death said that he had attained enlightenment. But who made the decision that he actually attained nirvana??? Question number 5: Some people in Buddhism believe that the Buddha will be reborn and have a second coming. Here is the question. Why would the Buddha be reborn if he achieved enlightenment and nirvana??? Wouldn't the Buddha then never return because he did in fact achieve complete enlightenment and nirvana. Those are a few of the questions that I had on my mind and have been discussing with a few people. Hope that I did not confuse anyone but I thought that I could get a good response here and some good answers. I will write more later with my thoughts, but for now these few are a good beginning. Take care, have a good and peaceful weekend. -Evelyn #77957 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. - to Dieter :-)) dcwijeratna Dear Dieter, Satipa.t.thaana sutta to my mind is not "one of the most important suttasa". It qualifies to the level of "Ekayano aya.m bhikkhave sattaana.m visuddhiyaa". One and the only path to absolute purification. It is also one of the most misuderstood. So it seems. Here is a glaring one. In thre there is "kaye, vedana, citte, dhamme -- anupassi viharati" But I have seen quite few people mentioning about: citta that knows vedana that feels etc. For you to ponder about. Mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77958 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 5:21 pm Subject: Re: Response to DC Part 1. sukinderpal Dear DC, In case the reason is that you forgot. This is to remind you that you have not yet responded to post #77615 of mine. Metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear DC (Elaine in PS), > > ============== > DC: > Here, I am not commenting at length on the individual issues raised. But > on the thrust of the whole argument embodied in your questions. Before > I start, I must congratulate you on spelling out the issue so clearly. > > > Sukin: I wouldn't know that, but you are probably comparing with other > posts of mine? I think I am an extremely murky thinker; in fact > sometimes I get quite irritated with the amount of uddhacca that is #77959 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 5:58 pm Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 17, no 1. philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for your answers. (See Survey, p. 31, > 32). Did you give this book away? You can still find it on Rob K's web. No, I didn't give anything away. Some of them are stored away, but I think I'll be back to them when I have worked out some of the things that bug me. SPD is very good book indeed, as is Perfections. I was reading the latter this morning, and getting a lot out of it. > ------- > N: You do not want to convey anything to someone else by it, so, it > is not body intimation. I see. > It seems lack of lightness, plasticity, wieldiness. I have some trouble with some of these derived rupa that do not appear in the suttanta - they feel contrived to me. But that's ok. All in due course. These are not > only produced by citta, also by nutrition and heat. If they are > produced only by citta, the body could not move. Thus you see that > there are complex conditions for the movement of the body. There is > no self who can say: let my hand not be clenched. It is beyond > ocntrol and this reminds us of anattaa. Yes, it does. There are many reminders of anatta in daily life. Metta, Phil p.s sorry to hear about Lodewijk's fall. #77960 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 6:43 pm Subject: Re: Response to DC Part 1. ... - to Dieter :-)) .. Vedana buddhistmedi... Hi DC (and Dieter), - You were discussing satipatthana with Dieter, and then you added: > DC: > But I have seen quite few people mentioning about: citta that knows vedana that feels etc. > > For you to ponder about. > T: Do you find anything wrong with "citta that knows vedana"? I think the following sutta is about the ways "citta" knows vedana. What is your thought after reading this sutta? [Tep's note: This is the first discourse on feeling in the 'Vedana Samyutta'.] "There are, O monks, these three feelings: pleasant feelings, painful feelings, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings." "A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his mind collected, he knows the feelings[1] and their origin,[2] knows whereby they cease[3] and knows the path that to the ending of feelings lead.[4] And when the end of feelings he has reached, such a monk, his thirsting quenched, attains Nibbana."[5] Commentary Notes: 1. Comy.: He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of Suffering. 2. Comy.: He knows them by way of the Truth of the Origin of Suffering. 3. Comy.: He knows, by way of the Truth of Cessation, that feelings cease in Nibbana. 4. Comy.: He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering. 5. Parinibbuto, "fully extinguished"; Comy.: through the full extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbanaya). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel303.html#n -1 ......... Tep === #77961 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. dcwijeratna Dear Sukin, Sorry for not responding early. I had some difficulty. Here are the two points, two 'ground rules', I proposed and your responses to them. [[[................... DC: 1. That we are normal human beings. That is puthujjana. Sukin: Yes. DC: 2. We get knowledge only through our five senses. [The sixth sense is really memory has stored our previous experiences. I can think of only something that I that I have experienced previously. Sukin: I am not sure. Do you take into account the difference in the mode of knowing between sanna, citta and panna? And do you also consider the fact that at the mind door, there can be knowing conditioned by Avijja or by Panna and the latter can have as object `ideas' as well as `realities'? ........................]]] Now to (1) one you have agreed. But to (2) you have not. So that is the difficulty. Let me explain it further. When I said that we are normal human beings, what I meant was: One day I (DC) see you. With that I form a picture. We would normally say in the mind. But really we don't know it. It could be in the brain. But the formation of this picture or an image is a fact. From then onwards, I say I know you. If I say see you again later, I recognise you with respect to the 'image that I had formed'. That is to say I know you. Now to me, that is the only way of knowing, But you say "I am not sure". So that is the problem. You ask me: "Do you take into account the difference in the mode of knowing between sanna, citta and panna?" But the only way of knowing for me is what I described above. So we are at a deadlock. I'll elaborate a little: Words like, sanna, citta and panna are different. They are not formed in the way described above. You can't point out "citta" to me and say "Hey DC, there is something over there. Let's call it citta". So that is the end of our ability to communicate with each other about citta. In practice what happens is people who use these terms, have developed (abstracted) meanings to these words on some experience. Each one's meaning private to himself. Then in trying to discuss these matters, they get into endless arguments. Even culminating in killing each other. The best example to my mind is the word God. The God of the Jews is different to that of the Christians, that is different to that of Islam, and to that of Hindus. Hindus is the the most instructive. See the different pictures of their gods. This is the way I understand citta, etc. I hope that clarifies my position. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna Re: Response to DC Part 1. #77962 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 6:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. ... - to Dieter :-)) .. Vedana dcwijeratna Dear Tep, That is a very interesting question. I just sent off an e-m to Sukin. Please read it. It would form part of my contribution to your question. I am about to go somewhere. I might not get time to respond till tomorrow evening. Now I must rush off. Sorry for that. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77963 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 7:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: vsm 429 (was 'no subject') buddhistmedi... Hi DC (and Elaine), - I am interested in your message #77947. >DC: >"Dhammas are to be experienced, they are not in the books. And mark my word, they can never be learnt from books." T: You have referred to the suttas quite often. How have you learnt the dhammas (e.g. satipatthana), if not from books? Or, maybe the word 'learning' to you is restricted to 'direct knowing' of the ariyans? Tep === Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13) #77964 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 7:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. gazita2002 Hello DC, thanks for this. It has been interesting discussing with you, but now I will be away for a while so maybe wont get to discuss anything more. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Dear Azita, > > I am sorry. I forgot to answer the questions you have asked? > > Here are the answers: > #77965 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 8:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India, Nepal memories - Oct. 2007 christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Christine, > Thank you for your lively impressions. > I meant to ask you something, if it is not too personal. I heard that > you asked Kh Sujin a question and you said you were releaved since it > was something weighing on your mind. Would you share this advice? But > no need if you do not want to respond to this. > Nina. > Op 2-nov-2007, om 8:34 heeft Christine Forsyth het volgende geschreven: > > > Since coming back, still trailing clouds of memories, everyday life > > seems repetitive and pointless - fairly much the same as always, > > when you think about it. Hello Nina, Nice to hear from you. I'm not sure exactly ~ I asked Ajahn a few questions when ever I got the rare chance. Mostly I've been wondering about Nibbana and what is the state an arahant after death .... and similar questions. Jon was helping me to phrase it correctly so he may remember the exact question. It arose out of my wondering what point there was in striving for Cessation of the khandas, if there was only annihilation. Or according to how one debates - no annihilation as there never was a self to begin with. Same thing to all intents and purposes though. Other traditions (Mahayana and Vajrayana) attempt to answer this question with the term Primordial awareness. To me, it makes sense to suppose that Samsara and the flux of consciousness arose from somewhere, and there is a point to the whole sorry state of affairs - not just blanking out at the end. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time---- #77966 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 9:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] India, Nepal memories - Oct. 2007 corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Mostly I've been wondering about Nibbana and what is the state an > arahant after death .... Hi Christine & Nina Glad to hear of your trip. I was reading something on the arahant after death in Sutta Nipata (1075-1076) translated by H. Saddhatissa: "Please explain this to me clearly, Sir" said Upasiva. "You, a wise man, know precisely the way these things work: has the man disappeared, does he simply not exist, or is he in some state of perpetual well-being?" "When a person has gone out, then there is nothing by which you can measure him. That by which he can be talked about is no longer there for him; you cannot say that he does not exist. When all ways of being, all phenomena are removed, then all ways of description have also been removed." Best wishes Andrew #77967 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 5:30 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,200 Vism.XVII,201 lbidd2 "The Path Of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 200. 4. 'By manner of condition': here: Resultant-consciousness conditions Mentality in nine ways, Then basis matter in nine ways, And other matter in eight ways; Formation-consciousness conditions This matter in a single way. The rest of consciousness conditions This matter as the case may be. 201. Rebirth-linking or some other kind of resultant consciousness is a condition in nine ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, kamma-result, nutriment, faculty, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, either at rebirth-linking or in the course of an existence, for that mentality called resultant, whether mixed with materiality or not. At rebirth-linking it is a condition in nine ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, kamma-result, nutriment, faculty, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the materiality of the physical [heart-] basis. It is a condition in eight ways, namely, as the above conditions omitting the mutuality condition, for materiality other than the materiality of the physical basis. Kamma-formation consciousness is a condition in one way only, as decisive-support condition, for the materiality of non-percipient beings, or for the kamma-born materiality in the five-constituent becoming, according to the Suttanta method. All the remaining kinds of consciousness from the time of the first life-continuum [consciousness following rebirth-linking] onwards should be understood as a condition for some kind of mentality-materiality as appropriate. But since the whole contents of the Pa.t.thaana must be cited in order to show how it acts in detail, we do not undertake that. ******************* 200. paccayanayaati ettha hi, naamassa paakavi~n~naa.na.m, navadhaa hoti paccayo. vatthuruupassa navadhaa, sesaruupassa a.t.thadhaa.. abhisa"nkhaaravi~n~naa.na.m, hoti ruupassa ekadhaa. tada~n~na.m pana vi~n~naa.na.m, tassa tassa yathaaraha.m.. 201. ya~nheta.m pa.tisandhiya.m pavattiya.m vaa vipaakasa"nkhaata.m naama.m, tassa ruupamissassa vaa amissassa vaa pa.tisandhika.m vaa a~n~na.m vaa vipaakavi~n~naa.na.m sahajaataa~n~nama~n~nanissayasampayuttavipaakaahaarindriyaatthiavigatapaccayehi navadhaa paccayo hoti. vatthuruupassa pa.tisandhiya.m sahajaataa~n~nama~n~nanissayavipaakaahaarindriyavippayuttaatthiavigatapaccayehi navadhaa paccayo hoti. .thapetvaa pana vatthuruupa.m sesaruupassa imesu navasu a~n~nama~n~napaccaya.m apanetvaa sesehi a.t.thahi paccayehi paccayo hoti. abhisa"nkhaaravi~n~naa.na.m pana asa~n~nasattaruupassa vaa pa~ncavokaarabhave vaa kammajassa ruupassa suttantikapariyaayato upanissayavasena ekadhaava paccayo hoti. avasesa.m pa.thamabhava"ngato pabhuti sabbampi vi~n~naa.na.m tassa tassa naamaruupassa yathaaraha.m paccayo hotiiti veditabba.m. vitthaarato pana tassa paccayanaye dassiyamaane sabbaapi pa.t.thaanakathaa vitthaaretabbaa hotiiti na na.m aarabhaama. #77968 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 10:12 pm Subject: Re: India, Nepal memories - Oct. 2007 christine_fo... Thanks Andrew. Nice to read you. :-) Upasiva seems to be asking from the pov of the individual being. With Anatta, I understand (theoretically) the idea of No Self. It would have been good if the Buddha had said something like: "Well, you know, Upavisa, we've often talked about anatta before and how there is really no being, only dhammas that rise with blinding speed and fall away, not staying for even a moment .... so once you've realised there is no individual self, there is freedom from the bonds of kamma and repetitive re-becoming. What then happens is .... or, All that there is, is .... I guess any answers I've seen in Theravada seem to be a version of Parrot Dhamma - quotes from long dead writers - nothing experienced. Hope all is well up in the hinterland, going to be a hot, dry summer. metta Chris #77969 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 10:26 pm Subject: Nibbâna is true Peace! bhikkhu0 Friends: Nibbâna is absolute Freedom, Peace, & Happiness!!! The Buddha once said about NibbÄ?na: The Uncreated Dimension: This, truly, is peace, this is the absolute supreme, namely, the end of every kamma formation, the final stilling of all mental construction, the letting go and leaving behind of every substrate for rebirth & fuel for becoming, the fading away of all craving, & the relinquishing of all forms of clinging, silencing, ceasing, quiet, NibbÄ?na.... AN 3:32 Enraptured, ensnared and obsessed with greed, lust, urge, & desire, enraged with hate, fuming with anger, stirred by ill will & irritation, blinded by ignorance, agitated by confusion, and fooled by delusion, overwhelmed, with mind entangled, one aims at own ruin, at the ruin of others, at the ruin of both, & one experiences frustration & pain! But if lust, hate, and ignorance are eliminated, one aims neither at own ruin, nor at the ruin of others, nor at the ruin of both, and one experiences neither mental frustration, nor any pain nor any grief! Thus is NibbÄ?na immediate, visible in this life, inviting, captivating, fascinating & comprehensible to any intelligent & wise being. AN 3:55 The elimination of all Greed, the stilling of all Hate, the eradication of all Confusion: This quenching, indeed, is the true NibbÄ?na. SN 38:1 .... Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * .... #77970 From: Elaine Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 11:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India, Nepal memories - Oct. 2007 shennieca Hi Chris, I'd like give my 2 cents. :-)) Once there is freedom from the bonds of Kamma and repetitive becoming, what happens then? What happens then is Perpetual Bliss. Ok I know it sounds like Eternalism but I like it better than Annihilism. The Buddha didn't say after Nibbana 'where' the Arahant is reborn. He only gave the simile of a fire going out. I think Buddha knows where Arahants go to but that place is unexplainable. For e.g. a fish asking a turtle about land, the fish doesn't know what/where land is, so even if the turtle explains it to the fish, the fish won't know. So I think there is no point in explaining to us where and what Nibbana is. The first stage of enlightenment can be attained, I'd rather spend my precious time striving towards it than ask unanswerable questions like this. After we've achieved it, we don't have to ask anymore. ;-)) [I know, following the lemmings but is there any other choice?] I hear it is possible for a lay-person to achieve cula-sotapannahood. We must have faith that it is possible for us. Have faith in the Buddha's words. Buddha taught us the *methods* to attain Insight knowledge. It is possible to attain it, I believe. We need to have faith in the method that our Buddha taught (using Satipatthana sutta). I think, the questions that Buddha didn't answer, there must be a reason for it. I don't think he purposely didn't answer just to get Vacchagota and us frustrated. ;-)) The answers that you seek, only you can find out for yourself (yeah, it sounds like a cliche but that's our only solution). If the Buddha himself didn't give answers to those questions, I think none of us can. I know my reply is not very helpful because you already know these standardized answers. I wanted to write to you because you 'brought' me to DSG. :-)) May we be well and happy! Sincerely, Elaine -------------------------- #77971 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 11:22 pm Subject: Re: India, Nepal memories - Oct. 2007 corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > I guess any answers I've seen in Theravada seem to be a version of > Parrot Dhamma - quotes from long dead writers - nothing experienced. Hi Christine I think that is exactly the point. Language/ideation is entirely conceptual and direct experience of realities (conditioned and unconditioned) simply can't happen through language/ideas. Descriptions of realities are not the realities themselves. We like descriptions to "give us a sense of" the reality we want to experience. With conditioned realities, we can at least get a description of conditions, manifestations etc. But Nibbana, the unconditioned? What is there to say beyond what the Buddha said - "all ways of description have been removed"? Perhaps it is as unsatisfactory an answer as "three gods in one"? ;-) Bye for now Andrew #77973 From: Elaine Date: Fri Nov 2, 2007 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vsm 429 (was 'no subject') shennieca Hi Tep, DC, all, There are 2 types of knowledge, the mundane type and supramundane type. What we learn from books is only mundane dhamma knowledge. The supramundane type of knowledge is *insight* knowledge, which is only attainable through mental cultivation. Insight knowledge is direct knowledge of the real nature of dukkha, anicca and anatta. Why do puthujjanas fail to see dukkha, anicca and anatta in their ordinary everyday experience? I found out the answers today, from reading. So reading/ studying is useful, there's no doubt about it. I think both types of knowledge are important, the supramundane one is more superior though. :-)) Best wishes, Elaine -------------- #77974 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 17, no 1. nilovg Hi Phil, Op 3-nov-2007, om 1:58 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > It seems lack of lightness, plasticity, wieldiness. > > I have some trouble with some of these derived rupa that do not > appear in the suttanta - they feel contrived to me. But that's ok. > All in due course. -------- N: These ruupas are not concrete ruupas, but rather a change in the elements. But they are included in the list of 28 ruupas. There is also a conventional approach. The Expositor (Co to the Dhammasangani), p. 426: Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ignorance (was Re: �Cetasikas' study corner 433- You ain't seen nothin' ye sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > [The Paali: "Atthi cevida.m asu~n~nata.m yadida.m imameva kaaya.m > paticca salaayatanika.m jiivitapaccayeti"] <...> > Scott: Micchaa di.t.thi, then. Seeing self when the elements are in > fact void of self. Is this one 'definition' of the term? The first > 'step' of the Eightfold Wrong Path? ... S: Sounds right to me. Taking the elements for something, for atta is miccha ditthi. As you later put it: "If in this [one understands] the object to be non-void...." Metta, Sarah ======== #77976 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 4:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dieter's Qu jonoabb Hi Dieter (and All) After a very busy first week back I'm now going through posts that came in while we were away and which I've not yet replied to. Apologies in advance for any posts overlooked (or replied to twice, for that matter!). Dieter Möller wrote: > Dear Jon, Han , Sarah and others.. > > I suppose you like me to pass Han's succinct summary to the Venerable and will do so . > It is not sure when we may expect a response , as he is residing in a monastery far away from the capital. > Yes, I think Han's summary contains the pith of the matter. I hope the Ven. finds it of interest, and gets back to us with his comments. > Thank you all for the care! > Well thank *you* for being the conduit (and doing all that initial typing out!). Jon #77977 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 4:52 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (70) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 4 13. Viisatinipaato 5. Subhaakammaaradhiitutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa txt: 351. "Utti.t.thapi.n.do u~ncho ca, pa.msukuula~nca ciivara.m; eta.m kho mama saaruppa.m, anagaaruupanissayo. 352. "Vantaa mahesiihi kaamaa, ye dibbaa ye ca maanusaa; khema.t.thaane vimuttaa te, pattaa te acala.m sukha.m. 353. "Maaha.m kaamehi sa.mgacchi.m, yesu taa.na.m na vijjati; amittaa vadhakaa kaamaa, aggikkhandhuupamaa dukhaa. 354. "Paripantho esa bhayo, savighaato saka.n.tako; gedho suvisamo ceso, mahanto mohanaamukho. 355. "Upasaggo bhiimaruupo, kaamaa sappasiruupamaa; ye baalaa abhinandanti, andhabhuutaa puthujjanaa. 356. "Kaamapa"nkena sattaa hi, bahuu loke aviddasuu; pariyanta.m na jaananti, jaatiyaa mara.nassa ca. Pruitt: 349. Leftover scraps and gleanings [as food], and a rage from a dustheap as a robe - this is indeed proper for me, the basic essentials for a homeless one. 350. The great seers have rejected sensual pleasures, those that are divine and those that are human. They [those seers] are completely released in the place of security. They have arrived at unshakable happiness. 351. May I not meet [again] with sensual pleasures in which no refuge is found. Sensual pleasures are enemies, murderers, like a mass of fire, pain[ful]. 352. Greed is an obstacle, full of fear, full of annoyance, full of thorns; and it is very dsagreeable. It is a great cause of stupefaction. 353. Sensual pleasures are like a frightful attack, like a snake's head, which fools delight in, blind ordinary individuals. 354. For people [are attached] to the mud of sensual pleasures. Many in the world are ignorant. They do not know the end of birth and death. RD: The food from hand to mouth, *379 glean'd here and there, The patchwork robe - these things are meet for me, The base and groundwork of the homeless life. *380 (349) Great sages *381 spue forth all desires of sense, Whether they be in heaven or on earth; At peace they dwell, for they freeholders are, For they have won unfluctuating bliss. (350) Ne'er let me follow after worldly lusts, Wherein no refuge is; for they are foes, And murderers, and cruel blazing fires. *382 (351) Oh! but an incubus is here, the haunt Of dread and fear of death, a thorny brake, A greedy maw it is, a path impassable, Mouth of a pit wherein we lose our wits, (352) A horrid shape of doom impending - such Are worldly lusts; uplifted heads of snakes. Therein they that be fools find their delight - The blinded, general, average, sensual man. (353) For all the many souls, who thus befooled Err ignorant in the marsh of worldly lusts, Heed not that which can limit birth and death. (354) *379 Lit., left over, given as alms. Cf. Jaataka, iv. 380. *380 Cf. Ps. lxix. 329 n. *381 I read with the Commentary mahesihi. Cf. the te on next line and 361. *382 These are similes occurring in discourses ascribed to the Buddha - e.g., Ang. Nik., iv. 128; Sa.my. Nik., v. 112-114; iv. 189, 198; Udaana, 24; Majjh. Nik., i. 130, etc. === to be continued, connie #77978 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views jonoabb Hi Howard I think our discussion in this thread (how rupas condition other rupas, as in the example raised by the Burmese Venerable through Dieter) had just about come to an end, so I won't respond point by point to your post. We still disagree somewhat on the matter, but perhaps not as much as seemed at first ;-)) One general comment from me: While I follow the distinction you are making between 'valid' conceptualising and other (presumably 'non-valid') conceptualising, I'm not aware that this is a distinction that is found in the teachings. So I'm not sure it has any significance as far as the development of insight is concerned. Unless you have any further thoughts to share, we can leave the topic for further discussion another time ;-)) Jon #77979 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Relations Among Rupas/Jon jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 10/13/2007 10:41:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > At the (present) moment of reading this message, there is the > experiencing of visible object and followed by many, many moments of > thinking about what has been experienced. It is during those > thinking moments that the idea of 'monitor' occurs. > > > > =============================== > Yes, I agree. But that thinking is not with basis. The basis consists of > relations among rupas. Our concocted perception of "monitor" occurs for good > reason: the interrelationship of rupas. That is correct, I suppose. But does it mean that the exact nature of that interrelationship is of any significance? I think not. I know of no passage in the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries that describes that interrelationship > Note that we never actually perceive > conventional objects concocted from *unrelated* rupas. We may imagine such, > but we never perceive such. > But in either case the perception is, to use your wording above, concocted. (Now I'm wondering if I spoke too soon in my earlier post ;-)) Jon #77980 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Relations Among Rupas/Jon jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > ... > But nor are conventional objects concocted from *related* rupas > "actually perceived". What is actually perceived is only visible > object, audible object, etc (and even that cannot, in my view, be > said to be visible object *of* a conventional object, i.e., certain > of the so-called 'related rupas'). > > Jon > ================================== > Jon, we not only think about trees, but perceive them. Such perception > is concocted, and the tree percept a mental construct, but, nonetheless, trees > are perceived (through the mind door). To my understanding of what the Buddha is saying, there is the perception of 'tree' through the mind-door, following on the perception of visible object through the eye-door and/or hardness through the body-door, and many other mental processes in between. At no time can it be said that a tree (i.e., an actual tree) is being perceived. I think this is where the 'interrelationship between rupas' idea leads one in an unhelpful direction. > There is a difference between a > concept of a tree and a "seen" (i.e., perceived) tree. We perceive not only what > is unconstructed such as sights, sounds, tastes, and smells, but also those > mental constructs that are percepts. > But in terms of paramattha dhammas there is no dhamma that is the "perceived tree" and hence no time at which that perceived tree is object of consciousness. There is only ever (mere) visible object or the idea of tree as object of consciousness. Jon #77981 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Relations Among Rupas/Jon jonoabb Hi Azita gazita2002 wrote: > Hello Jon and other pilgrims. > > You are probably no longer in Delhi given the tight schedule. > Nevertheless, I wish all of you a wonderful trip and lots of good > dhamma discussion. Special hello to Ajarn :-) and hope all goes > extremely well. > Your message was passed on. We all missed your cheery presence (and helpful questions) on the trip. > Patience, courage and good cheer, > azita. > > PS Currently tryiing to get my head around 'elements' have been > reading SN on dhatu and comments in Vis. Seems to go in one side of > the brain and out some unmentionable other place. It does take a long > time doesnt it!!!! > Lots of mention of dhatus on the trip. Obviously something to be much pondered upon. Used interchangeably with 'dhammas'. Emphasises the impersonal nature of what we take for ourselves and others. "Element that knows" (i.e., nama dhamma, consciusness) came up at one stage. Jon #77982 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India, Nepal memories - Oct. 2007 upasaka_howard Hi, Elaine (and Chris) - In a message dated 11/3/2007 2:16:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, shennieca@... writes: Hi Chris, I'd like give my 2 cents. :-)) Once there is freedom from the bonds of Kamma and repetitive becoming, what happens then? What happens then is Perpetual Bliss. Ok I know it sounds like Eternalism but I like it better than Annihilism. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would think neither perpetual (eternal) nor momentary nor temporary, for these all depend on time, and time depends on conditions, and nibbana is reality beyond conditions. It's realization must be a "stepping out" that can be (inadequately) pointed to but is indescribable in any meaningful way, and the fruition of which is an uprooting that leads towards an eventual final and complete "stepping out". ------------------------------------------------------------ The Buddha didn't say after Nibbana 'where' the Arahant is reborn. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The notion actually makes no sense, I'd say. It even makes no sense to speak of "after" (final realization of) nibbana. Perhaps "beyond" instead of "after" would be closer. And the "where" terminology seems off the mark as well. In any case, pointing to reality at this very moment, is there any true being reborn in any true place ever, even right now? Or is there just an illusion of such? (I just had a thought: The first three letters of 'illusion' spell 'ill' ;-)) -------------------------------------------------------- He only gave the simile of a fire going out. I think Buddha knows where Arahants go to but that place is unexplainable. For e.g. a fish asking a turtle about land, the fish doesn't know what/where land is, so even if the turtle explains it to the fish, the fish won't know. So I think there is no point in explaining to us where and what Nibbana is. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that is so, not only because of lack of commonality of experience, but also because all language is condition-based, which puts nibbana beyond the reach of language. ------------------------------------------------------- The first stage of enlightenment can be attained, I'd rather spend my precious time striving towards it than ask unanswerable questions like this. After we've achieved it, we don't have to ask anymore. ;-)) [I know, following the lemmings but is there any other choice?] I hear it is possible for a lay-person to achieve cula-sotapannahood. We must have faith that it is possible for us. Have faith in the Buddha's words. Buddha taught us the *methods* to attain Insight knowledge. It is possible to attain it, I believe. We need to have faith in the method that our Buddha taught (using Satipatthana sutta). ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have gotten the impression that lesser stream-entry is a very feasible goal, but that far more than that is achievable for lay persons. In fact, it is my understanding that even full awakening is a possibility for lay persons, though for some reason unclear to me it is said that going forth or death must then follow very quickly. That last notion would imply (these days) that any Theravadin female lay practitioner would necessarily die shortly after attaining full awakening - which strikes me as silly at best. Also, when Gotama became an arahant (and, with that, a buddha), there was no sangha for him to join, and he didn't establish one for a good long time, contradicting the "requirement"; so I give no credence to this mandatory going forth for arahants. ------------------------------------------------------ I think, the questions that Buddha didn't answer, there must be a reason for it. I don't think he purposely didn't answer just to get Vacchagota and us frustrated. ;-)) -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think there was nothing to be said. ------------------------------------------------- The answers that you seek, only you can find out for yourself (yeah, it sounds like a cliche but that's our only solution). If the Buddha himself didn't give answers to those questions, I think none of us can. I know my reply is not very helpful because you already know these standardized answers. I wanted to write to you because you 'brought' me to DSG. :-)) May we be well and happy! Sincerely, Elaine ============================ With metta, Howard #77983 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eCard from India - Benares jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: > Ordinary cremated bones are small bone-fragments mixing with white > or grayish sand-like powder. Relics of the arahants (e.g. Moggallana > and Sariputta) I have seen in the Nana-samvara-ram Temple (near > Bangkok) are crystal-like materials. So I asked the question because > I wanted to verify an old belief among Thai Buddhists that only > relics of the arahants are crystal-like (i.e. colorful, glassy beads). > Well, there was nothing crystal-like about the piece of bone that I saw. Just a plain but non-glassy piece of bone, smaller that the finger nail of the little finger. >> Jon: Hearing and reflecting on the teachings in the place where the >> Master first expounded the teachings is an inspiring experience. (At >> the same time, it is in essence not different from any other moment, >> in the ultimate sense of being experiences through the six doorways ;- >> )) >> > > > T: Do you mean that your sensing experiences through the six > doorways "in the ultimate sense" are nothing different from those of > any non-Buddhist? > I was referring more to the fact that in the ultimate sense a moment of seeing consciousness is the same in nature and characteristic wherever one is, at one of the holy places in India or at home. This of course is not how things are regarded in the conventional sense. > If the answer is 'yes', then the ultimate sense is > not different from the conventional sense ! Right? {:>). > I think it could also be said that the seeing consciousness of different beings is the same in nature and characteristic, regardless of their level of understanding. For that matter, the seeing consciousness of a persona and of, say, a cow are, in the ultimate sense, the same ;-)) Jon Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6) #77984 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 1:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Relations Among Rupas/Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/3/2007 8:29:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: But in terms of paramattha dhammas there is no dhamma that is the "perceived tree" and hence no time at which that perceived tree is object of consciousness. There is only ever (mere) visible object or the idea of tree as object of consciousness. ============================ I agree that there is no paramattha dhamma that is the "perceived tree". A "perceived tree" is nothing but a mental construct, just as is the "idea of tree". But I do maintain that there is a difference in the events we call "seeing a tree" and "thinking of a tree" (or even "picturing a tree"). It is with respect to that first event called "seeing a tree" that I speak of a "tree percept". Our ordinary experience is perceptual in that sense more than conceptual. The difference between the two may lie in nothing more than the relative propinquity of the rupas underlying "the perceived tree" as compared to the "merely thought-of tree." With metta, Howard #77985 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: vsm 429 (was 'no subject') buddhistmedi... Hi Elaine, - Thank you for a good reply and for a thought-provoking question. >E: > There are 2 types of knowledge, the mundane type and supramundane type. What we learn from books is only mundane dhamma knowledge. > > The supramundane type of knowledge is *insight* knowledge, which is only attainable through mental cultivation. Insight knowledge is direct knowledge of the real nature of dukkha, anicca and anatta. > T: I agree with you! ................. > E: Why do puthujjanas fail to see dukkha, anicca and anatta in their ordinary everyday experience? I found out the answers today, from reading. So reading/ studying is useful, there's no doubt about it. I think both types of knowledge are important, the supramundane one is more superior though. :-)) > T: My quick answer to that question is : because they have 'perversions of perception'(sa~n~naa vipallasa). "Monks, there are these four perversions of perception, perversions of mind, perversions of view." [AN 4.49] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.049.than.html Tep === #77986 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: eCard from India - Benares buddhistmedi... Hi Jon, - It is great to see you back from the long trip. After having reflected a lot over the Buddha and the Teachings during the travel, do you find yourself "ultimately" wiser in the dhammas? ;-) > Jon: > I think it could also be said that the seeing consciousness of different beings is the same in nature and characteristic, regardless of their level of understanding. For that matter, the seeing consciousness of a persona and of, say, a cow are, in the ultimate sense, the same ;-)) > T: For that matter, in the molecular sense the molecules and atoms in a person are the same as those in a cow. :>) Tep === #77987 From: "nichiconn" Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:26 am Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,200 Vism.XVII,201 nichiconn {PoP p.673-4} As regards "By causal mode" Resultant consciousness ninefold condition is Of name and form with base material; Eightfold of matter that's residual. Single of form wherein the consciousness Is a preparing; any other kind Of this and that the fit condition is. For at rebirth or at procedure there is name which is called the result. Of this name, whether it is mixed with matter or not, the resultant consciousness, connected with rebirth {read pa.tisandhika.m} or any other kind, is the ninefold cause by way of co-existence, reciprocity, dependence, association, result, sustenance, controlling faculty, presence, non-absence. Of matter which is the heart-basis the cause is ninefold by way of co- existence, reciprocity, dependence, result, sustenance, controlling faculty, dissociation, presence, non-absence. Leaving out basic matter, of the remaining kinds of matter the cause is eightfold excepting reciprocity from the nine causes. Consciousness of preparation is a single cause by way of sufficing condition by the suttantika method of matter of perceptionless beings or of karma-born matter in existence of the five constituents. All the remaining consciousness beginning from the first life-continuum is to be understood as cause befitting this and that name-and-form. When causal mode is shown in detail, the entire discourse of the Pa.t.thaana should be treated in detail. Hence we do not set about it here. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > "The Path Of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII > > 200. 4. 'By manner of condition': here: > > Resultant-consciousness conditions > > Mentality in nine ways, > > Then basis matter in nine ways, > > And other matter in eight ways; > > Formation-consciousness conditions > > This matter in a single way. > > The rest of consciousness conditions > > This matter as the case may be. > > 201. Rebirth-linking or some other kind of resultant consciousness is a > condition in nine ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, association, > kamma-result, nutriment, faculty, presence, and non-disappearance > conditions, either at rebirth-linking or in the course of an existence, > for that mentality called resultant, whether mixed with materiality or > not. At rebirth-linking it is a condition in nine ways, as conascence, > mutuality, support, kamma-result, nutriment, faculty, dissociation, > presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the materiality of the > physical [heart-] basis. It is a condition in eight ways, namely, as the > above conditions omitting the mutuality condition, for materiality other > than the materiality of the physical basis. > > Kamma-formation consciousness is a condition in one way only, as > decisive-support condition, for the materiality of non-percipient > beings, or for the kamma-born materiality in the five-constituent > becoming, according to the Suttanta method. > > All the remaining kinds of consciousness from the time of the first > life-continuum [consciousness following > rebirth-linking] onwards should be understood as a condition for some > kind of mentality-materiality as appropriate. But since the whole > contents of the Pa.t.thaana must be cited in order to show how it acts > in detail, we do not undertake that. > ******************* > 200. paccayanayaati ettha hi, > > naamassa paakavi~n~naa.na.m, > > navadhaa hoti paccayo. > > vatthuruupassa navadhaa, > > sesaruupassa a.t.thadhaa.. > > abhisa"nkhaaravi~n~naa.na.m, > > hoti ruupassa ekadhaa. > > tada~n~na.m pana vi~n~naa.na.m, > > tassa tassa yathaaraha.m.. > > 201. ya~nheta.m pa.tisandhiya.m pavattiya.m vaa vipaakasa"nkhaata.m > naama.m, tassa ruupamissassa vaa amissassa vaa pa.tisandhika.m vaa > a~n~na.m vaa vipaakavi~n~naa.na.m > sahajaataa~n~nama~n~nanissayasampayuttavipaakaahaarindriyaatthiavigata paccayehi > navadhaa paccayo hoti. > vatthuruupassa pa.tisandhiya.m > sahajaataa~n~nama~n~nanissayavipaakaahaarindriyavippayuttaatthiavigata paccayehi > navadhaa paccayo hoti. .thapetvaa pana vatthuruupa.m sesaruupassa imesu > navasu > a~n~nama~n~napaccaya.m apanetvaa sesehi a.t.thahi paccayehi paccayo > hoti. > > abhisa"nkhaaravi~n~naa.na.m pana asa~n~nasattaruupassa vaa > pa~ncavokaarabhave vaa kammajassa ruupassa suttantikapariyaayato > upanissayavasena ekadhaava paccayo hoti. > > avasesa.m pa.thamabhava"ngato pabhuti sabbampi vi~n~naa.na.m > tassa tassa naamaruupassa yathaaraha.m paccayo hotiiti veditabba.m. > vitthaarato > pana tassa paccayanaye dassiyamaane sabbaapi pa.t.thaanakathaa > vitthaaretabbaa hotiiti na na.m aarabhaama. > #77988 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:40 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 17, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Right understanding can be developed so that it can be known when a paramattha dhamma, an ultimate reality, is the object of citta and when a concept. When we know that there is this person or that thing, we should realize that citta has arisen and knows at that moment a concept. The citta which thinks of a concept is a paramattha dhamma, the concept is not. In our daily life the object of citta is either a paramattha dhamma or a concept. The cittas which experience sense objects through the six doorways experience paramattha dhammas, but if satipatthåna is not developed it is not known that rúpas such as visible object or sound are paramattha dhammas. When satipatthåna is developed only a paramattha dhamma is the object of awareness, not a concept. Only paramattha dhammas have the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå, non-self, which should be realized as they are, so that defilements can be eradicated. We may think of concepts with kusala citta or with akusala citta. The Buddha and the arahats also thought of concepts but they were not deluded about them, they had no defilements on account of them. If we cling to concepts and take them for things which really exist, which are permanent or self, we are deluding ourselves. Clinging to concepts of person or self leads to many other kinds of defilements, it leads to a great deal of sorrow. When someone has lost a person who was dear to him he seems to live with his memories of the person he loved, he lives with his dreams, with an illusion. However, also when a beloved person is still alive we live with our dreams; we take the person we believe we see, hear or touch for reality. Someone who is in love with another person is actually in love with his own concept of that person, with an idealized image he has of that person. He does not have understanding of realities, of the different cittas which arise because of their approriate conditions. When he finds out that the image he has of another person is completely different from reality he may experience disillusion. We may have idealized images of other people and have expectations about them which cannot be realised. We have learnt about nåma and rúpa and about the conditions for their arising, but theoretical understanding is not enough. We should consider ultimate realities in daily life. We tend to forget that seeing is only a conditioned reality and that visible object is only a conditioned reality, and therefore we are easily carried away by sense impressions. It is beneficial to remember that seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions are vipåkacittas, cittas which are results of kamma. They arise at their appropriate bases, vatthus, which are also produced by kamma. These bases have to arise before the sense- cognitions and they condition these by way of prenascent dependence- condition. Visible object and the other sense objects are rúpas which also have to arise before the sense-cognitions and which condition these by way of prenascent dependence-condition. Each reality which arises does so because of a concurrence of different conditions which operate in a very intricate way. ****** Nina. #77989 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:49 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 1 The Disappearance of the Teachings We live in a time close to the disappearance of the teachings. The Sangha, the order of the monks have as their foremost responsibility to preserve the teachings in explaining Dhamma and in developing right understanding. When we were in Sarnath, our group presented a meal to a large group of monks of different nationalities in the building of the Mahå-Bodhi Society. Acharn Sujin had requested my husband Lodewijk to address words of thanks to the monks after the meal. He spoke the following words: “I know that it is conceit, but I cannot help feeling pleased and proud that, as one of the few foreigners in this group of Thai pilgrims of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation, I may speak to you, venerable monks, to thank you for giving us the opportunity to perform dåna. As foreigners, Nina and I came to Thailand more than thirtyfive years ago. This was kusala vipåka of a high degree, because in Thailand we received the highest gift one can receive in life: the gift of Dhamma. We received this gift through the hands of Acharn Sujin Boriharnwanaket, the spiritual leader of our group. We shall always remain most grateful to her. Also during this tour she never tires of explaining with great vigour the teachings of the Lord Buddha and she keeps exhorting us to study the present moment in order to understand the truth of impermanence and anattå. At the end of one of these Dhamma discussions, she asked each person present to tell her what part of the teachings he or she found most striking. Each person answered according to his own conditions and accumulations. If I would have been present I would have answered: the Ten Perfections, Påramís. For me, the Ten Perfections are an unique, unsurpassed, unequalled set of moral and spiritual ideals to be pursued in everday life, covering all aspects of human life. In presenting these gifts to you, venerable monks, we wish to pay tribute and respect to you. We admire your courage, because you have chosen the difficult path of going forth from home into homelessness. By observing the Vinaya, penetrating the four noble Truths and by preserving the teachings, you perform síla to a very high degree for the benefit of all mankind. For that, we are most grateful to you. Thank you for giving us this opportunity to perform dåna.” Both monks and layfollowers have the duty to study the teachings in detail and to develop understanding of the Dhamma. Throughout our journey Acharn Sujin explained the Dhamma to us with a great sense of urgency and she encouraged us to develop understanding of the reality that appears now. She said: “Dhamma is the truth and it can be verified. All that has been explained in the Tipitaka is appearing now, while we are seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing tactile object and experiencing objects through the mind-door. The Buddha had through his enlightenment penetrated the true nature of all realities. It was not known before that seeing arises and falls away, and that seeing does not belong to anybody. By listening and considering the Dhamma we can come to see realities appearing now. There is no self, but there are realities that can see, hear or experience objects through the other doorways.” ****** Nina. #77990 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Relations Among Rupas/Jon buddhistmedi... Hi Jon and Howard,- I think your theoretical discussion helps me glimpse a tiny speck of light at the far-away mind horizon. I am not sure if that "light" is wisdom or just a Mara's illusion. :-) > Jon: > But in terms of paramattha dhammas there is no dhamma that is the > "perceived tree" and hence no time at which that perceived tree is > object of consciousness. There is only ever (mere) visible object or the idea of tree as object of consciousness. Howard: I agree that there is no paramattha dhamma that is the "perceived tree". A "perceived tree" is nothing but a mental construct, just as is the "idea of tree". But I do maintain that there is a difference in the events we call "seeing a tree" and "thinking of a tree" (or even "picturing a tree"). It is with respect to that first event called "seeing a tree" that I speak of a "tree percept". Our ordinary experience is perceptual in that sense more than conceptual. The difference between the two may lie in nothing more than the relative propinquity of the rupas underlying "the perceived tree" as compared to the "merely thought-of tree." > T: What do you say, Howard and Jon, about usefulness of a "mental construct" in meditation (either samatha or vipassana) ? For example, let's consider, say, a citta that had ruupa (or any of the five khandhas) as its object and already passed away. Can such a citta be useful as an object of satipatthana now? Please feel free to ask me to explain more, if the question is not clear. Tep === #77991 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 9:24 am Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 17, no 3. ... Some Comments ... buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, - My comments below are not intended to confront or contradict your paramattha-dhamma teaching, but rather to complement it (I hope). N: When satipatthåna is developed only a paramattha dhamma is the object of awareness, not a concept. T: But when satipatthåna is not yet developed, what can be the object of awareness, if not a concept? .......... N: Only paramattha dhammas have the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå, non-self, which should be realized as they are, so that defilements can be eradicated. T: Past and future khandhas are concepts, and yet they have the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå, non-self, which should be realized as they are, so that defilements can be eradicated. .......... N: It is beneficial to remember that seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions are vipåkacittas, cittas which are results of kamma. T: Isn't such "remembering" a concept? If it is, then how can it be useful as an object of sati? Tep === #77992 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 9:41 am Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 17, no 3. ... Some Comments ... scottduncan2 Dear Tep, I intrude: T: "...But when satipatth�na is not yet developed, what can be the object of awareness, if not a concept?" Scott: Do you mean 'sati' when you write 'awareness'? Are these synonymous? T: "...Isn't such "remembering" a concept? If it is, then how can it be useful as an object of sati?" Scott: What do you consider the object of sati to be, if I might ask? Sincerely, Scott. #77993 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 10:27 am Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 17, no 3. ... Some Comments ... buddhistmedi... Hi, dear Scott (and Howard), - I welcome your 'citta' back in the forever-going forum, so there is no intrusion ever. As you love to say, 'citta is experience'; so there is no intruder in the ultimate sense. But, on a second thought, can citta intrude? ;-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > I intrude: > > T: "...But when satipatth�na is not yet developed, what can be the > object of awareness, if not a concept?" > > Scott: Do you mean 'sati' when you write 'awareness'? Are these > synonymous? > > T: "...Isn't such "remembering" a concept? If it is, then how can it > be useful as an object of sati?" > > Scott: What do you consider the object of sati to be, if I might ask? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > T: When there is 'sati', there is 'sampajanna; i.e. when there is mindfulness, there is awareness. So you may say there is 'sati- sampajanna' when there is awareness. For non-ariyans, the object of sati is a dhamma (e.g. any in the 201- dhamma group below) in the conventional sense. I like Howard's terminology, 'mind constructs'. .............. [The 201 dhammas from section 5 in The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga), Treatise I, On Knowledges] T: The first group of 65 dhammas is the basis of craving. 1-5. Materiality, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness are each to be directly known. 6-11. Eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind are each to be directly known. 12-17. Visible objects, sounds, odors, flavors, tangible objects, ideas are each to be directly known. 18-23. Eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness, mind consciousness are to be directly known (each). 24-29. Eye contact, ear contact, nose contact, tongue contact, body contact, mind contact are to be directly known (each). 30-35. Eye-contact-born feeling, ear-contact-born feeling, nose- contact-born feeling, tongue-contact-born feeling, body-contact-born feeling, mind-contact-born feeling are to be directly known (each). 36-41. Perception of visible objects, perception of sounds, perception of odors, perception of flavors, perception of tangible objects, perception of ideas are to be directly known (each). 42-47. Volition about visible objects, volition about sounds, volition about odors, volition about flavors, volition about tangible objects, volition about ideas are to be directly known (each). 48-53. Craving for visible objects, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for tangible objects, craving for ideas are to be directly known (each). 54-59. Applied-thought about visible objects, applied-thought about sounds, applied-thought about odors, applied-thought about flavors, applied-thought about tangible objects, applied-thought about ideas are to be directly known (each). 60-65. Sustained thought about visible objects, sustained thought about sounds, sustained thought about odors, sustained thought about flavors, sustained thought about tangible objects, sustained thought about ideas are to be directly known (each). 66-71. The earth property(dhatu) is to be directly known, the water property..., the fire property..., the air property..., the space (akasa) property..., the consciousness property(vinnana dhatu) is to be directly known. [6 dhatus] 72-81. The earth kasina is to be directly known, the water kasina is to be directly known, ..., the consciousness kasina is to be directly known. [10 kasinas] 82-113. Head hair is to be directly known, body-hair ..., teeth ..., ... ...urine ..., brain is to be directly known. [32 body parts] 114-125. The eye base(ayatana = sensing medium)) is to be directly known, the visible-object base ..., the ear base ..., the sound base ..., the node base ..., ... ... the mind base ..., the idea base is to be directly known. [12 bases] 126-143. The eye property is to be directly known, the visible- object property ..., ... ..., the mind property ..., the idea property ..., the mind consciousness property is to be directly known. [18 dhatus] 144-165. The eye faculty(indriya) is to be directly known, the ear faculty ..., the nose faculty ...,the tongue faculty ..., the body faculty ...,the mind faculty ...,the life faculty ..., the femininity faculty ..., the masculinity faculty..., ... ..., the faith faculty ..., the energy faculty ..., the mindfulness faculty ..., the concentration faculty ..., the understanding faculty ..., .... the final-knowledge faculty ..., the final-knower faculty is to be directly known. [22 indriyas] 166-168. The sensual desire property(kama-dhatu) is to be directly known, the material property(rupa-dhatu) ..., the immaterial property (arupa-dhatu) is to be directly known. [3 dhatus] 169-177. Sensual-desire being(kaama-bhava) is to be directly known, material being(ruupa-bhava) ... percipient being()sa~n~nin- bhava ... ... [9 bhavas]. 178-181. The first jhana is to be directly known, the second jhana ..., the third jhana ..., the fourth jhana is to be directly known [4 ruupa-jhanas]. 182-185. The heart-deliverance(ceto-vimutti) of lovingkindness is to be directly known, the heart-deliverance of compassion ..., the heart deliverance of sympathetic gladness ..., the heart-deliverance of equanimity is to be directly known. [4 ceto-vimutti] 186-189. The attainment of the base consisting of boundless space (aakaasaana~ncaayatana) is to be directly known, the attainment of the base consisting of boundless consciousness ..., the base consisting of nothingness ..., the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception is to be directly known. [4 aruupa- jhanas] 190-201. Ignorance is to be directly known, formations ..., consciousness ..., mentality-materiality ..., the six-fold Base ..., contact ..., feeling ..., craving ..., clinging ..., being ..., birth ..., ageing-and-death is to be directly known. [the 12 links of Dependent Origination]. .............. Tep === #77994 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 10:38 am Subject: Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. - to Dieter :-)) moellerdieter Hi DC, you wrote: Satipa.t.thaana sutta to my mind is not "one of the most important suttasa". It qualifies to the level of "Ekayano aya.m bhikkhave sattaana.m visuddhiyaa". One and the only path to absolute purification. D: sorry I don't get the point of your objection... your quotation of the sutta's beginning (D.N.22) is not in contradiction of my statement that D.N. 22 is one of the most important suttas, is it? Or do you have in mind to concede exclusivity within the Sutta Nikaya? DC: It is also one of the most misuderstood. So it seems. D: yes, maybe .. I remember that already your quotation 'One and the only path ' has been a matter of extensive discussion/dispute in respect to translation and context. DC: Here is a glaring one. In thre there is "kaye, vedana, citte, dhamme -- anupassi viharati" But I have seen quite few people mentioning about: citta that knows vedana that feels etc. For you to ponder about. D: I am not sure what you like me to ponder about.. Acc. to my understanding the Maha Satipatthana Sutta represents the training to perfect the 7th link of the Noble Path, guiding us to all aspects we need to develop mindfulness . Between reading /hearing /contemplating what that is all about and the mastering ( enlightenment even in seven days) lies as we all know a very extensive journey .. The sutta tells us the journey- a base of moral assumed- starts with (in simple words ): sit down ( proper time/ quite place), relax from usual business , calm down (watch your breath), and focus : body ..feelings..etc as in detail proclaimed. Do you have a different view? I liked what you said in another message : 'Hey DC, there is something over there. Let's call it citta". So that is the end of our ability to communicate with each other about citta. In practice what happens is people who use these terms, have developed (abstracted) meanings to these words on some experience. Each one's meaning private to himself. Then in trying to discuss these matters, they get into endless arguments' when it comes to details , we need to exchange the meaning we apply to terms ,and trying to get a consens about its use , otherwise, as you said ,there are endless arguments so often recognised in discussions.. When I read for example 'citta that knows vedana' , I suppose that the links of... passa - vedana ..are concerned . But whether the Abhidhamma language fits to the D.O.context I have in mind needs to be clarified... with Metta Dieter #77995 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Relations Among Rupas/Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Jon) - In a message dated 11/3/2007 11:57:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: T: What do you say, Howard and Jon, about usefulness of a "mental construct" in meditation (either samatha or vipassana) ? For example, let's consider, say, a citta that had ruupa (or any of the five khandhas) as its object and already passed away. Can such a citta be useful as an object of satipatthana now? ============================= I suspect that inasmuch as the matter of meditating is "problematical" for Jon, he may be in an odd position in trying to answer this. As I am "a meditator," I don't have the problem I presume Jon would have. For strictly samatha meditation, one may, and typically does, meditate on nothing but a mental construct. For vipassana meditation and in-tandem meditation, one begins with mind-constructed percepts and constructs as object, but, if the meditating goes very well, proceeds to finer levels of awareness, eventually to the paramatthic level. As for awareness of a citta, it is at best a fresh memory that one is aware of. I'll leave the usefulness of that to others to decide for themselves. With metta Howard #77996 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 12:24 pm Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 17, no 3. ... Some Comments ... scottduncan2 Dear Tep, T: "When there is 'sati', there is 'sampajanna; i.e. when there is mindfulness, there is awareness. So you may say there is 'sati- sampajanna' when there is awareness." Scott: Manasikaara or attention arises with each and every citta. Sati is only with kusala citta, and pa~n~naa more rarely still, and then again, only with kusala citta. You are calling sati 'awareness' then? How would 'one' know the difference? T: "...For non-ariyans, the object of sati is a dhamma (e.g. any in the 201-dhamma group below) in the conventional sense. I like Howard's terminology, 'mind constructs'." Scott: I have yet to have a cogent explanation for this notion of 'a dhamma in a conventional sense'. This doesn't make sense, in fact. Are you saying that 'non-ariyans' have a kind of something called 'sati' that has concepts for objects until they become 'ariyans' and then have a different kind of something called 'sati' that has something else as object? Please clarify if you wish. Sincerely, Scott. #77997 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 12:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to DC Part 1. .. Cognitive Series .. - to Dieter :-)) dcwijeratna Hi Dieter, 1. Satipa.t.thaana Sutta Sorry, No objection was meant. I was trying to stress its importance. 2. Really I don't have any comments about it. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77998 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 1:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vsm 429 (was 'no subject') dcwijeratna Dear Tep, I used the word in the plural: dhammaas. That is like in ye dhamma hetuppabhavaa.. It means the teaching: Svaakhaato Dhammo It means righteousness: dhamma.m care It also means nature : Not in the abhidhamm sense. One can learn the Dhamma. But dhammas are to be experienced. That is the definition. But 'learning' will not give knowledge. You can never be certain. That is why people are arguing. Mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #77999 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 1:09 pm Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 17, no 3. ... Some Comments ... buddhistmedi... Hi Scott, - I don't understand why you always ask me to define almost every term I am using, just like we come from two different sects of Buddhism (or, maybe, two different planets!!). I have already said a number of times that the conventional truths and ultimate truths are coexisting and inter-connected; they are not dichotomy. I hope the following excerpt from Bhikkhu Bodhi's article may convince you to expand your rigid viewpoint. When you become more flexible, then please let me know and I'll be extremely glad to continue the discussion with you. Bhikkhu Bodhi: "The Abhidhamma method of exposition, however, rigorously restricts itself to terms that are valid from the standpoint of ultimate truth (paramatthasacca): dhammas, their characteristics, their functions, and their relations. Thus in the Abhidhamma all such conceptual entities provisionally accepted in the Suttas for purposes of meaningful communication are resolved into their ontological ultimates, into bare mental and material phenomena that are impermanent, conditioned, and dependently arisen, empty of any abiding self or substance. But a qualification is necessary. When a distinction is drawn between the two methods, this should be understood to be based on what is most characteristic of each Pitaka and should not be interpreted as an absolute dichotomy. To some degree the two methods overlap and interpenetrate." [end of quote] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/abhiman.html Your friend, Tep ----------------