#80400 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > A: "Removal is COMPLETE AND FOREVER removal. But before this can be > done, temporary removal is good and still required (ie: to get to Jhana)." > > Scott: Why is 'temporary removal good and still required'? >>> Only when 5 hindrances are absent you can truly understand Buddha's teaching. Plus, only then can you achiev the paths and the fruits. Can you > elaborate on what function this serves in the end? > > It seems to me that it is simply a matter of when jhaana is in place, 'hindrances' (i.e., these particular mental factors) are not. > > Like when its dark it is not light. >>> You are right. In Jhana, the hindrances are removed and the higher mind is being developed. > I don't see the purpose of developing concentration to the level of > jhaana just because the hindrances are suppressed naturally by so doing. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > First of all, Jhana IS NOT CONCENTRATION. It is much more than that. 2nd) It is a must, even if it lasts for a second. Those who mouth down Jhana are doing great disservice and demerit. Please see my post about Absoprtion Concentration Vs Wise Buddhist Jhana http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/80315 Did Buddha really teach concentration? First lets remember that word such as: Ekaggata DOES NOT mean concentration! Ekagga= calm, tranquil pg 184 (A new course in reading Pali). Furthermore the detailed lists of what happens in Jhana (such as MN111 and Jhana sutta) show that it isn't what we mean by 'concentration'. Not only that, but it implies "crushing mind with mind" - a tactic which Buddha to be found NOT to work (MN 36 or 26 ) "The realization arises right within oneself that 'This concentration (samadhi? the translation is incorrect here) is peaceful, exquisite, the acquiring of serenity, the attainment of unity, not kept in place by the fabrications of forceful restraint.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.027.than.html Furthermore lets see what forceful restraint does. It applies FORCE to keep the mind still. It is like trying to use force of your hands to keep fan from spinning (rather than simply turning it off). What will happen in this case (assuming you won't get your hands cut)? The blades of the fan won't move until you either let go, or until the blades break off (from the spinning part). Of course this examply is silly, it is much better to simply turn off electricity! But this example what happens with absorption/concentration. One tries to use FORCE as opposed to Anatta wisdom to stop the spinning blades of a fan (which here I used a similie for the changing mind). Forceful restraint also has a disadvantage in depth. It requires that one keep applying force for the concentration to happen and to last. This application of force, is a disturbance that would keep one from going to a much deeper state in which there isn't an possibility of exertion. Thus attainment of such states as Cessation of Perception & Feeling (CPF) may not be possible with concentration that requires forceful application in order to be concentrated. Maybe this explains why only Anagamins & Arahats are claimed (in the commentaries, never in Sutta's to my knowledge) to be able to enter CPF. In MANY years of such self mental torture the mind may be broken to stay on one object. But the question is: Is broken mind a good thing? Concidering the talk about Nimittas (mental hallucinations) as signifying absorption, we may conclude that it is potentially not very healthy. Is the following a noble 8fold path? When it comes to meditation it seems reasonable to make it consisten with N8P. Neither indulging in mental proliferation nor forceful mind mortification (crushing mind with mind). Furthermore what does forceful does regarding hindrances? You desire to stay on that one spot and you do NOT want for the mind to move from it. So we have a subtle desire (for the mind to stick to one spot and subtle aversion for disturbances). Furthermore denying experiences through mental repression can really condition the mind into denial and closed mindedness. Obviously these aren't Buddhist values. Buddhist mind is supposed to be "Enlarged" as opposed to contracted! In the Suttas when speaking about Jhana, Buddha didn't emphasize LACK of awareness. Quite the opposite, he emphasized the LARGE SCOPE OF FULL BODY MINDFULNESS. "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither- pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html Some teachers claim that when one is in Jhana, even if you were to be hit with a Baseball bat or if someone would change your position , you wouldn't know or feel it. Is that the Mindfulness, pure and bright awareness? It is actually quite easy to get into feel nothing, see nothing state. Use a hammer and hit your head! Similiar state and no need to spend (I've heard that even for a monks it may take 10-15 years to get into full absorption). Thank Buddha he didn't teach concentration. Upacara (access) , Khanika (momentary) , Appana (fixed) samadhi are NOT MENTIONED IN THE SUTTAS, I wonder why? :). BTW, Abhidhammikas believe that we perceive only one citta (or object) at a time. This actually means that theoretically speaking we are constantly in a form of momentary concentration... Another crucial thing: One MUST be able to cognize change while in the Jhana. Buddha was able to do that and that is one of the reasons why he wasn't satisfied even with "neither perception nor non perception". Turning a blind eye to change may make one mistake Jhana for Nibbana and it would certainly may make jhana appear stable, something for the ego to stand on. But if the mind isn't beaten into stillness, then change will be apperent and it will cause the meditator to go deeper and deeper until reaching Cessation. Another thing. When you concentrate hard you get headaches! When you have headaches it is hard to experience piti-sukha rapture & happiness. Also another result of treating Samadhi or Jhana as concentration is the breaking the path into two paths (not found in the suttas). You can't really have insight if you are in blind-deaf- cognitionless trance. Considering the denial and suppresion of experience (not to mention possible mental breakage) which happens with every form of one-pointed concentration - it is questionable if Insight will be able to properly arise? ------- 4 similies to the Jhanas found in the Kayagatasati (Mindfulness of the Body) sutta. 1st Ecstasy: He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. 2nd Ecstasy: He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring- water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time & again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate & pervade, suffuse & fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born of composure. 3rd Ecstasy: "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born & growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated & pervaded, suffused & filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. 4th Ecstasy: He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html Notice: a) The sutta is called mindfulness of the physical body. It starts with postures, elements, 32 parts, recollection of death. b) It goes into Jhanas where the description IS OF THE BODY. It would not only do pali injustice, but it doesn't fit the sutta to reinterpret "kaya" as a mental group as opposed to lit. physical body. Also remember that jhanas (ecstasy) are "pleasant abidings here and now". It is more appropriate to call them "Ecstasy" rather than a state which is like being knocked out with a hammer. Ecstasy (from the Greek Ýêóôáóéò, to be outside oneself (ancient Greek: åîßóôçìé (existimi) meaning stand outside where åî (ex) means out as in exit)) is a category of altered states of consciousness or trancelike states in which an individual transcends ordinary consciousness ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecstasy (emotion) Ecstasy (religion), state of exaltation in which the self is transcended. The word comes from Greek roots meaning "standing outside," and it covers a range of phenomena from mysticism to spirit possession and shamanism. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecstasy (religion) Ecstasy, (or ekstasis) from the Ancient Greek, Ýê-óôáóéò (ex-stasis), to be or stand outside oneself, a removal to elsewhere (from ex-: out, and stasis: a stand, or a standoff of forces). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecstasy (philosophy) (Greek) [from ekstasis displacement, standing out from the proper place, hence rising above] A transference of consciousness from the physical plane to another inner and superior plane, accompanied by awareness and memory of the experience. ... www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/ea-el.htm a state of elated bliss wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Jhanas fit the above descriptions more than calling them "concentration". Also Samadhi: The name in India for spiritual ecstasy. It is a state of complete trance, induced by means of mystic concentration. www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-glo3.htm I disagree with the trance & concentration part, but we do see that it is "spiritual ecstasy". No wonder that Parama-ditthadhamma-nibbanavadins considered Ecstasy 1- 4 to be "Nibbana here and now". We also find that each level of Jhana feels better and better and that IT IS RAPTURE NOT OF THE FLESH. "http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.031.than.html" Lets remember that placing hammer in the temple would not be classed under Jhana (Ecstasy) which is what Visudhimagga likes to misinterpret Jhana as. No wonder Visuddhimagga "Jhana" requires seeing lights and objects... You'd probably see the same if you used the hammer... You think this is funny? I've read about some "experimenter" who tried to awaken Kundalini energy by hitting his buttocks against the floor... Talking about Visuddhimagga (VsM), it has totally misunderstood what Ecstasy (Jhana) and Arupa Jhana are about. For example I've read that in VsM Metta would bring you to 3rd Jhana and Upekha Brahma Vihara to 4th Jhana. But if we check the suttas, it is wrong! In Samyutta Nikaya pg 1607 46. 54 (4) Metta - 4th Jhana, Compassion - 5th, Altruistic joy - 6th, Equinimity -7th! (pg 1611) Equinimity (Upekha brings to base of NOTHINGNESS!). Furthermore, in Metta Sutta it shows that Metta has to be practiced in ALL postures and ALL the time. This means that if this is fully developed Metta, then it is abiding in 4th Ecstasy during daily activities. Furthermore in other suttas it says that if metta is practiced with insight, the 5 fetters are worn through and one is reborn in Pure Abodes (this proves again that it is 4th Ecstasy). But when he has no trafficking with views, Is virtuous, and has perfected seeing, And purges greed for sensual desires, He surely comes no more to any womb. - Sutta-nipata, vv. 143-152 Here, bhikkhus, a certain person abides with his heart imbued with loving-kindness extending... over the all-encompassing world. Now whatever therein (during that state of contemplation) exists classifiable as form, classifiable as a feeling (of pleasure, pain, or neutrality), classifiable as perception, classifiable as determinative acts, or classifiable as consciousness, such ideas he sees as impermanent, as liable to suffering, as a disease, as a cancer, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as being worn away, as void, as not-self. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears (as a non-returner) in the retinue of the Gods of the Pure Abodes- Anguttara Nikaya, 4:126 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel007.html Also another thing: Does physical breathing disappear in 4th Ecstasy and in Arupa Ecstasy? At first it seems to be the case, especially if we read MN43 where Kaya-Sankhara is defined as in-out breathing. However if we check the Anapanasati sutta step #4 (calming the kaya- sankhara) we will notice that the breath IS present in ALL 16 steps of Anapanasati, even with 4th step to calm kaya-sankhara. If the breath would totally disappear, then one would be UNABLE to do steps 5-16. Furthermore it seems that breathing IS present even in arupa Jhana. "If a monk should wish, 'May I, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enter & remain in the dimension of the infinitude of space,' then he should attend closely to this very same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. [up to ] -> "If a monk should wish, 'May I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enter & remain in the cessation of perception & feeling,' then he should attend closely to this very same concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.008.than.html The above quote is very interesting. It suggests the breathing IS present even in Arupa Jhana, also a note needs to be made: a) in 8th one needs to come out and recollect the fact that one was breathing b) in the cessation (Nirodha Samapatti) one cannot recollect anything that happened in the state while one is there and after. It is interesting just how some people described anapanasati leading to "Jhana" VsM style... Apparently one is supposed to get to a stage where the breath (and 5 senses) are not felt at all, then the nimitta appears, than one observes the Nimitta, and then through that nimitta one goes into Jhana. This is NOT mentioned in the suttas! This appears like absorption + mental kasina meditation. Furthermore IF the breath ceases, then Mindfulness of Breathing ceases. If one is no longer mindful of breathing, than one cannot continue doing all 16 steps of Anapanasati and thus one's progress in Anapanasati stops. The only place where once you are in it you don't percieve the breath is the 8th Ecstasy (Neither perception nor non perception), which is true to its name. The breath (prematurely) ceases when one is focusing too strongly on the breath, which is one-pointedness concentration. Here is another thing, if one restricts one's awareness to one point (ie the breath) then one can't get into real Arupa Ecstasy. Why? For example "Infinite Space" for example doesn't talk about smallness of awareness, quite the opposite - it talks about EXPANDED, IMMESURABLE & ENLARGED awareness. This is quite different from restricted & contracted awareness. A question: What about breathing in Arupa Jhana (Ecstasy) how does it feel. There is no label "in" breath - "out" breath. There is just the breath, without spatial perceptions. In fact body feels non existent, unless there is contact (ie bodily pain). Another thing: How long can a Jhana(Ecstasy) last? Some say that once one is in Jhana, it must last for hours, otherwise it cannot really be Jhana. However in AN1.397 we find that even 4th Ecstasy (Jhana) can last for 1 second! http://halfsmile.org/buddhadust/www.buddhadust.org/TheOnes/OnesInPali3 94-494.htm#397 Also, any Jhana or immaterial attainment, or Cessation of Perception & feelings can last for a second http://halfsmile.org/buddhadust/www.buddhadust.org/TheOnes/OnesInPali3 94-494.htm#454 Thus this fixes controversy regarding becoming a Sotapanna. In a certain Sutta (Magga Samyutta), Ven. Sariputta has said that one who does N8P is a sotapanna. Literally it would mean that one needs to reach 4th Jhana (Ecstasy). But there are many instances where after a short lecture by the Buddha, someone who has never heard Dhamma became a Sotapanna. At first these two types of cases seem to be contradictory. It appears that 4th Ecstasy is required, but in some cases people got awakened through listening. However if we go with SUTTA (as opposed to VsM) interpretation of "Jhana", then two types of events are NOT contradictory. Through paying lots of attention to Buddha's teaching a pupil could theoretically get into 4th Jhana (Ecstasy) for that split second - thus achieving N8P at that moment. Lets remember that "Achievement" and "Mastery" are different things. A sotapanna & sakadagamin does NOT have to master 4 Jhanas (Ecstasies) - Only Anagamin do. Anyhow it has been a long writing... More could be said about Satipathana in Jhana (up to base of nothingness MN111), etc etc. Ultimately we won't satisfy the hunger through reading the menu. Eating the food will. Am I saying 'no study, go sit facing a wall?' . Absolutely not. Sutta study is a big MUST. If you read only 50 pages per day, then you'll finish Main Nikays in about 4 month. After this if you aren't pushing toward the stream (or there already), the cultivation of Buddhist Jhana (Ecstasy of Letting Go and seeing clearly) will. Buddha's teaching is about letting go, finding ultimate freedom. Jhana is a temporal state of letting go, of freedom from burning passions of sensuality. If one uses instructions found in the main suttas, hasn't commited heineous crimes, then one can become a high Ariya. It is possible IF YOU TRY. I strongly believe in the ability to go up a level in as little as a WEEK (Buddha has said from pujjhana to Arahant, but I'm being conservative here). The reason why it is harder to do this today is: a) We aren't illiterate farmers, thus it is harder for us to cultivate the nessesery calm (AND PATIENCE!!!) required. b) We don't have a Buddha who could give us the RIGHT subject of meditation that fits our temperament. So we have to use a bit more discrimination for B) and try to do as much sense restrait as possible for A (which means we have to limit reading certain unbeneficial works). Here is fairly good site to try to figure out one's temperament and probably the most beneficial subject. http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism//tinhtut.htm Anyhow: "Winners find solutions, Losers find excuses." Lots of Metta, Alex #80401 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:33 pm Subject: Re: ideation avalo1968 Hello Larry, Thank you for your reply. Robert A. #80402 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation nilovg Hi Howard and Robert A, Op 22-dec-2007, om 17:40 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Just one comment: I think that there are definite similarities between > the no-control perspective of Khun Sujin and the wu-wei perspective of > Ch'an/Zen. ------- N: Howard, please would you explain what wu-wei is for those who do not know? I find the topic Robert A. gave us a very good topic to discuss. Nina. #80403 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:21 am Subject: Re: Burmese Temples in North America sarahprocter... Hi Alyssa (Elaine & Rob M), Some time ago you wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alyssa Ryvers" wrote: > > Hi All, > > After a short e-mail exchange with Elaine, I realized that some of you might not be aware that there appears to be a large network of Burmese temples. To my knowledge, there is one in / around most major centres in North America, and from what I understand, at least one Venerable who communicates in English. <..> > The following are links to the temple I attend in Toronto, Ontario, Canada: > http://mahadhammika.com/ > > http://mahadhammika.com/14-contacts-b.html (location | address) > I will be resuming my Abhidhamma lessons in mid December, and anyone interested in attending please contact me, and we can co- ordinate a convenient time to meet with Bhante Kawwida. <...> ... S: I'm interested to hear whether you and others have been attending these classes and how they are conducted. Are you using any text for reference? Elaine, did you join any? Pls share any of your studies/reflections. Metta, Sarah ========= #80404 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Paul Williams sarahprocter... Hi Ann (& Glenn), The following extracts which Rahula posted and responses reminded me of (your husband) Glenn's same question in Kaeng Krajan (as I recall), i.e. 'why is there something rather than nothing?'. Perhaps you could print out and share the original messages and responses with him and let us know if he has any further comments (or if the two of you have any further discussion on it). Metta, Sarah see Rahula's posts #80377, #80384 and the responses such as Robert A's #80379. (If you look on the home page at the original messages, the replies can be found at the bottom of the page). --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > > Has anyone read,"The Unexpected Way: On Converting from Buddhism to > Catholicism" by Paul Williams. > > I would be interested if someone could provide a review or comment > of the book. More spesifically, if someone could address Williams' > critique of Buddhism, that would be great. #80405 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:10 am Subject: Perfections Corner (62) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 8: The Perfection of Determination. continued... If we want to relinquish defilements, if we have steadfastness in relinquishment (caagaadi.t.thaana) with regard to siila, our conduct in action and speech, we have to guard the faculties of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind-door in daily life. When akusala citta arises, the faculties of the senses and the mind-door are unguarded, whereas when kusala citta arises, they are well guarded. When the eye-door is not well guarded, this will result in seeing wrongly and understanding wrongly, and hence there will be more trouble and disturbance in our life. We can also see in daily life the consequences of not being heedful as to the faculty of the ear. We cannot avoid hearing senseless words very often, but when we are heedful as to the faculty of the ear we do not pay attention to such words. We should know for ourselves when sati-sampaja~n~na arises which is heedful or when we are not heedful. There can also be heedfulness with regard to the faculty of the nose. Then we are not infatuated with enticing odours, we do not cling to them, or strive to experience them, and we are not disturbed by them. Some people cling to the fragrance of flowers and if they always try to experience more of such odours, it leads to distress. When one has developed heedfulness of the sense faculties, all anxiety will gradually decrease. When we are heedful with regard to the bodysense, we shall not be meddlesome, jesting, ridiculing others and be reckless in conduct, we shall not molest or harm others. When we are heedful with regard to the mind, we are not worried and preoccupied, we do not think about things that make us unhappy. Some people seem to be happy in appearance, but in reality they are worried all the time. If they would know that at such moments there are akusala cittas, they would not give in to their worries and make themselves unhappy. They would not think of matters that would cause them to be angry with others, that would cause them to be jealous or to have conceit. If they could consider themselves a dustrag {*} they would be able to guard the faculties of the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, and the bodysense, and they would be able to abandon defilements. This is steadfastness in relinquishment. {*} We read in the "Gradual Sayings" (IV), Book of the Nines, Ch 2, §1, that a monk falsely accused Saariputta, but that Saariputta felt no ill-will. He compared himself with a duster that wipes up everything, clean and foul, but that is not filled with disgust. He said to the Buddha: "Even so lord, like a duster, I abide with heart, large, abundant, measureless, feeling no hatred, nor ill-will..." ..to be continued, connie #80406 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:10 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (72) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 11 15. Cattaaliisanipaato 1. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa "Paasaadikaasii"ti gaathaa bodhittheriyaa pucchaavasena vuttaa. "Evamanuyu~njiyamaanaa"ti gaathaa sa"ngiitikaareheva vuttaa. "Ujjeniyaa"ti-aadikaa hi sabbaapi isidaasiyaava vuttaa. 403-405. The verse beginning You are lovely [v.403] was spoken by Therii Bodhii as a question. The verse beginning Asked in this way [v.404] was spoken by those holding the council. All [the rest of the verses] beginning In Ujjenii [vv.405-407] were spoken by Isidaasii. 405. "Paasaadikaasi ayye, isidaasi vayopi te aparihiino; ki.m disvaana byaalika.m, athaasi nekkhammamanuyuttaa. 403. You are lovely, noble Isidaasii. Your youth has not yet faded. What fault have you seen [in household life] that you are intent on renunciation [of the world]. Tattha paasaadikaasiiti ruupasampattiyaa passantaana.m pasaadaavahaa asi. Vayopi te aparihiinoti tuyha.m vayopi na parihiino, pa.thamavaye thitaasiiti attho. Ki.m disvaana byaalikanti kiidisa.m byaalika.m dosa.m gharaavaase aadiinava.m disvaa. Athaasi nekkhammamanuyuttaati athaati nipaatamatta.m, nekkhamma.m pabbajja.m anuyuttaa asi. 403. There, you are ('si) lovely (paasaadikaa) means: you are a source of joy (pasaadaavahaa) for those seeing the perfection of your beauty. Your youth has not yet faded (aparihino) means: your youth has not yet faded (na parihiino). You are in the flower of your youth. That is the meaning. What fault have you seen? means: what sort of fault (byaalika.m = dosa.m) [or] danger have you seen in household life? That you are intent on renunciation means: the word atha* is only a particle. You are intent on renunciation, on going forth. *Untranslated here, but translated by "then" in EV II ("that you are then intent..."). 406. "Evamanuyu~njiyamaanaa saa, rahite dhammadesanaakusalaa; isidaasii vacanamabravi, su.na bodhi yathaamhi pabbajitaa. Ito para.m vissajjanagaathaa. 404. Asked in this way in the lonely place, Isidaasi, proficient in the teaching of the Doctrine, spoke these words: "Hear, Bodhii, how I went forth." After that, there are the verses with the answer: Anuyu~njiyamaanaati pucchiyamaanaa, saa isidaasiiti yojanaa. Rahiteti su~n~na.t.thaane. Su.na bodhi yathaamhi pabbajitaati bodhittheri aha.m yathaa pabbajitaa amhi, ta.m ta.m puraa.na.m su.na su.naahi. 404. Asked means; questioned. She (saa) [not translated], the connection is "Isidaasii." In the lonely place means: in an empty place. "Hear, Bodhii, how I went forth ('mhi pabbajitaa)" means: O Therii Bodhii, hear (su.na = su.naahi) how I became one who has gone forth (pabbajitaa amhi) [after] this and that [happened] in the past. 407. "Ujjeniyaa puravare, mayha.m pitaa siilasa.mvuto se.t.thi; tassamhi ekadhiitaa, piyaa manaapaa ca dayitaa ca. 405. In Ujjenii, best of cities, my father was a merchant, restrained by virtuous conduct. I was his only daughter, dear and charming and beloved. Ujjeniyaa puravareti ujjeniinaamake avantira.t.the uttamanagare. Piyaati ekadhiitubhaavena piyaayitabbaa. Manaapaati siilaacaaragu.nena manava.d.dhanakaa. Dayitaati anukampitabbaa. 405. In Ujjenii, best of cities means: the best town in the kingdom of Avanti by the name of Ujjenii. Dear (piyaa) means: I was t be held dear (piyaayitabbaa) because of being his only daughter. Charming means: bequiling the mind through such qualities as virtuous conduct. Beloved means: I was to be given sympathy. == to be continued, connie #80407 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:19 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 7, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, As regards the second noble Truth, we should thoroughly understand that attachment is the cause of dukkha. We should realize it when we cling to the idea of self. When we are seeing, thinking or considering the Dhamma there may be an idea of self who does so. When we are looking for ways and means to have more awareness, we cling to wrong practice which causes us to deviate from the right Path. Wrong practice prevents us from naturally developing the understanding of realities. It is necessary to have a keener and more refined knowledge of attachment, otherwise it cannot be eradicated. We can find out that it arises countless times, more often than we ever thought. As regards the third noble Truth, this is nibbåna, and nibbåna means the end of clinging and all other defilements. We should have the firm intellectual understanding that detachment and the eradication of defilements is the goal. We should be convinced that it is possible to attain this goal if we follow the right Path. As regards the fourth Noble Truth, the way leading to the end of dukkha, we should have the firm understanding that the development of satipatthåna is the only way leading to this goal. We should understand the difference between right view and wrong view. When we are really convinced that there is no other way but the development of satipaììhåna, we shall not deviate from the right Path. Thus, we should not follow after the past nor desire for the future, we should be aware of any reality appearing now. When we listen to the Dhamma and consider what we hear the intellectual understanding of realities, that is, the first phase, sacca ñåna, gradually develops and then it can condition the arising of satipatthåna. This means that the second phase, knowledge of the task, kicca ñåna, begins to develop. The practice, patipatti, is actually knowledge of the task that is to be performed, kicca ñåna. Thus, there are different levels of paññå: intellectual understanding based on listening to the Dhamma, and paññå accompanied by sati that is directly aware of the characteristics of realities appearing now through one of the six doorways. These are the dhammas we studied and considered before, but now they can gradually be verified and directly understood. Knowing the difference between the moment there is no sati but only thinking about nåma and rúpa, and the moment there is awareness of one characteristic of nåma or rúpa at a time is the beginning of the development of satipatthåna. Gradually we shall realize nåma as nåma, and rúpa as rúpa, we shall realize their different characteristics. When one has reached the second phase, knowledge of the task or the practice, the first phase, intellectual understanding of the truth, is not abandoned but develops further. One understands more deeply what the four noble Truths are and one sees more clearly that satipatthåna, awareness of what appears now is the only way leading to detachment from the idea of self and to nibbåna which is the end of defilements. The clinging to self is deeply accumulated and very persistent. When paññå develops it sees even the more subtle clinging to a self or the clinging to sati. A moment of right awareness is very short and attachment can arise in between moments of awareness. ot be immediately clear understanding of realities, but we can begin to develop understanding of the realities we used to take for people, beings and things. ******* Nina. #80408 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and RobA and RobK) - In a message dated 12/23/2007 3:46:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Robert A, Op 22-dec-2007, om 17:40 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Just one comment: I think that there are definite similarities between > the no-control perspective of Khun Sujin and the wu-wei perspective of > Ch'an/Zen. ------- N: Howard, please would you explain what wu-wei is for those who do not know? I find the topic Robert A. gave us a very good topic to discuss. Nina. ============================== I'm very far from being knowledgeable about this. As I understand it, the notion, possibly originating in Taoism and inherited by Ch'an (Jap. "Zen"), literally means "non-action". It is a "doing" which flows naturally, and for the good, without any self-oriented intention or thought. It is impersonal action that grasps onto nothing. One can see it in the martial arts, for example in the Way of the Sword. The expert swordsman engages beautifully, smoothly and effectively until "s/he" enters the picture. As soon as the swordsman is mentally caught in thinking of (fixed) position, (desired) placement, self, or opponent, he has already lost. Most Ch'an masters will tell you, however, that one doesn't begin with the emptiness of wu-wei, and that much intentional cultivation has to be engaged in before such a stage is entered upon. A rather good article on this topic can be found at the url _http://www.chan1.org/ddp/channews/12-1983.html_ (http://www.chan1.org/ddp/channews/12-1983.html) . The "Shifu" referenced in it is Master Sheng-Yen of the Ch'an Meditation Center in Elmont, NY (and other places). He is world famous. (His teachings on "Silent Illumination" meditation have been useful to me.) A couple statements made by Sheng-Yen may sound a bit familiar to you: In response to the question "But what do you do when you practice meditation and first begin to experience inner stillness? How do you get rid of the special feelings of being a meditator?" he answers in part "It's not necessary to do anything. If you exert yourself to get rid of something, to make some purposeful change, you will only make things worse." There is also the following portion of the conversation: __________________________________________________ Interviewer: Shih-fu writes of this pure mind as, "being boundless, it has no circumference, so there's no way to find an entrance." The phrase, "there's no way to find an entrance," indicates that there is no method. Shih-fu: Entering is just a goal. It is a door you have to go through. The method is the key, so I say "go and find the door." That's up to you. I can't find the door for you. Interviewer: But you write that there's no way to find an entrance. Shih-fu: As far as I am concerned there's no door and no entering. Door and keys are your ideas, your problems. Interviewer: So eventually one has to put down the key. Shih-fu: As long as you have a building, a door, and a key -- you still have limitations. These are just used for illustration. Eventually you find that they do not exist. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- Do note, though, the several places in the interview in which Sheng-Yen does point out the need to begin with intentional cultivation, though, as possible, without "self" or goal in mind With metta, Howard #80409 From: "Robert" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation avalo1968 Hello Howard, Thanks for your comment. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > ================================= > Just one comment: I think that there are definite similarities between > the no-control perspective of Khun Sujin and the wu-wei perspective of > Ch'an/Zen. Robert Kirkpatrick shares this view of the similarity, I believe. > There could be similarities, but at the same time, Khun Sujin's teaching is so different when you consider Zen's most famous description: "A special transmission outside the sutras; No reliance on words and letters; Direct pointing to the very mind; Seeing into one's own nature." This is something I have never been able to resolve - the no-control aspect of her teachings with what seems like a very conceptual approach through the Abhidhamma analysis, since doing a lot of analysis seems to me to be control - doing this to achieve that. Thanks, Robert A. #80410 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina (and RobA and RobK) - One more thought on "wu-wei" and "wu-shin" (no-mind): There is a sutta in which the Buddha speaks of "a tangle within" and "a tangle without" by (or in) which one may be "caught". It is such "getting caught" or "getting stuck" that wu-wei and wu-shin avoid. The sutta is the following: ______________________________________ SN 7.6 Jata Sutta The Tangle Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: S i 165 CDB i 259 ____________________________________ Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. ____________________________________ Copyright © 1998 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1998 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. ____________________________________ At Savatthi. Then the brahman Jata Bharadvaja went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After this exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he addressed the Blessed One with a verse: A tangle within, a tangle without, people are entangled in a tangle. Gotama, I ask you this: who can untangle this tangle? [The Buddha:] A man established in virtue, discerning, developing discernment & mind, a monk ardent, astute: he can untangle this tangle. Those whose passion, aversion, & ignorance have faded away, arahants, their effluents ended: for them the tangle's untangled. Where name-&-form, along with perception of impingement & form, totally stop without trace: that's where the tangle is cut. When this was said, the brahman Jata Bharadvaja said to the Blessed One, "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, & to the community of monks. Let me obtain the going forth in Master Gotama's presence, let me obtain admission." Then the brahman Jata Bharadvaja received the going forth & the admission in the Blessed One's presence. And not long after his admission — dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute — he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And so Ven. Bharadvaja became another one of the arahants. ================================= With metta, Howard #80411 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation nilovg Hi Howard (Robert A, Larry), thank you for explaining. Op 23-dec-2007, om 16:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It is impersonal > action that grasps onto nothing. One can see it in the martial > arts, for > example in the Way of the Sword. The expert swordsman engages > beautifully, > smoothly and effectively until "s/he" enters the picture. As soon > as the swordsman > is mentally caught in thinking of (fixed) position, (desired) > placement, self, > or opponent, he has already lost. -------- N: In Japan we had a friend who learnt this art. I understand the trend of thought. I think there is also in the same way a method of teaching of playing the cello. I do not know in how far one could compare Kh Sujin with this. Let us see how the discussion evolves with Robert A. Thank you Larry, you posted many good thoughts, and I will go into them later on. First finish Visuddhimagga. Nina. #80412 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:09 am Subject: Introspection, Vedana, and Impermanence upasaka_howard Hi, all - In _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel303.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel303.html) , Ven Nyanaponika includes the following by the Buddha: Pleasant feeling is pleasant when present; it is painful when changing. Painful feeling is painful when present; it is pleasant when changing. Neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling is pleasant if one understands it; it is painful if there is no understanding. Majjhima Nikaya No. 44; Cula-vedalla Sutta I find this analysis to be right on target and wonderfully clear and precisely stated. This is one of those matters that introspection easily reveals, it seems to me, and this shows me the virtue of a regular habit of introspection. With metta, Howard #80413 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dart Sutta - Contemplation of Feeling moellerdieter Hi Howard, good you started ...;-) there are interesting issue to consider ..to begin with: you wrote: > snip ..From this brief purview one may now appreciate the significance of the Buddha's terse saying that "all things converge on feelings." From such a central position of feeling it can also be understood that misconceptions about feelings belong to the twenty Personality Views, where the Aggregate of Feeling (vedana-kkhandha) is in various ways identified with an assumed self. Yet, feeling by itself, in its primary state, is quite neutral when it registers the impact of an object as pleasant, unpleasant or indifferent. Only when emotional or volitional additions are admitted, will there arise desire and love, aversion and hate, anxiety, fear and distorting views. But that need not be so. These admixtures are not inseparable parts of the respective feelings. In fact, many of the weaker impressions we receive during the day stop at the mere registering of a very faint and brief feeling, without any further emotional reaction. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think this is important, and it bears a clear relevance to the matter of dukkha and the "second dart". D:interesting to recall the point of the second dart in the sutta : 'An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He does not know, according to facts, the arising and ending of these feelings, nor the gratification, the danger and the escape, connected with these feelings. In him who lacks that knowledge, an underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called an untaught worldling who is fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is fettered by suffering, this I declare.' For the untaught wordling the automatic of the D.O. is taking place ... I like G. Burns in the movie 'There can't be good without bad, life without death, pleasure without pain. That's how it is. If I take sad away, happy has to go with it. ' i.e. 'But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple,..knows of an escape from painful feelings other than by enjoying sensual happiness. Then in him who does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness, no underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare. "This, O monks, is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling." It is understood that the happiness , which has to go is the sensual one .. (replaced by a much deeper inner happiness) Still the first dart is remaining (painful bodily feeling ) even with the well taught noble disciple . So when it is said above ' he is not fettered by ....pain ..'.the question comes up whether we have to understand pain here exclusively as mental , respectively that an escape from bodily pain by the use of the Jhanas (signless concentration as mentioned in the Pari Nibbana Sutta) is pointing to unfettered (?) A discussion we had some time ago about an article from Silvia Borstein (?) and the recent sutta quotation about the types of Arahants with and without fermentations come into my mind .. Cessation of suffering ..the last dart removed finally only by Pari Nibbana? what do you think? with Metta Dieter #80414 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dart Sutta - Contemplation of Feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and TG, and all) - In a message dated 12/23/2007 11:46:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: D:interesting to recall the point of the second dart in the sutta : 'An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He does not know, according to facts, the arising and ending of these feelings, nor the gratification, the danger and the escape, connected with these feelings. In him who lacks that knowledge, an underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called an untaught worldling who is fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is fettered by suffering, this I declare.' For the untaught wordling the automatic of the D.O. is taking place ... I like G. Burns in the movie 'There can't be good without bad, life without death, pleasure without pain. That's how it is. If I take sad away, happy has to go with it. ' i.e. 'But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple,..knows of an escape from painful feelings other than by enjoying sensual happiness. Then in him who does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness, no underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare. "This, O monks, is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling." It is understood that the happiness , which has to go is the sensual one .. (replaced by a much deeper inner happiness) ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The "happiness" dependent on "things" and ideas is what needs replacement. ----------------------------------------------------- Still the first dart is remaining (painful bodily feeling ) even with the well taught noble disciple . So when it is said above ' he is not fettered by ....pain ..'.the question comes up whether we have to understand pain here exclusively as mental , respectively that an escape from bodily pain by the use of the Jhanas (signless concentration as mentioned in the Pari Nibbana Sutta) is pointing to unfettered (?) ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: There is escape from pain in all senses (and from all else) in being *unfettered* by things. To be unfettered by pain is to be detached from it. That, of course, precludes the occurrence of mental pain. But one even escapes bodily pain in being detached from it. To be unfettered by, or free of, something doesn't require its nonexistence or our being oblivious to it. ----------------------------------------------------- A discussion we had some time ago about an article from Silvia Borstein (?) and the recent sutta quotation about the types of Arahants with and without fermentations come into my mind .. Cessation of suffering ..the last dart removed finally only by Pari Nibbana? -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The first dart is only removed by cessation of experience, but when there is complete freedom (i.e., unfetteredness), there is no need to remove anything. There is a Talmudic statement to the effect that a person is rich who is satisfied with what s/he has. When one is free of craving, aversion, and attachment, one is free of the objects of craving, aversion, and attachment. ------------------------------------------------------- what do you think? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I've replied, but at this point I'd like to be quiet for a while and let others speak. I've been hogging the podium. It's time for me to take my seat and listen to you and TG and others(!) instead. :-) ------------------------------------------------ with Metta Dieter ======================== With metta, Howard #80415 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:30 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Are you sure you wish to re-visit this with me? ;) Me: "Why is 'temporary removal good and still required'? Can you elaborate on what function this serves in the end? It seems to me that it is simply a matter of when jhaana is in place, 'hindrances' (i.e., these particular mental factors) are not. Like when its dark it is not light. I don't see the purpose of developing concentration to the level of jhaana just because the hindrances are suppressed naturally by so doing." H: "In many suttas, MN 39, for example, the Buddha taught the following:..." Scott: You provide the Buddha's description of the fourth jhaana and of three abhi~n~naas. Why? I don't doubt that these states exist. I simply fail to see: 1) why one should seek after them, and, 2) how the Buddha's instructions to those at Assapura apply to me today in Edmonton. Who were they, these bhikkhus? What was the level of their development? I think it is somewhat Megalomanic for one of today to think to achieve these abhi~n~naas. Are you suggesting that this ought to be my goal - to seek after the te-vijjaa? Again, tailoring my question to you, since the abhi~n~naas mentioned are a natural consequence of jhaana at the fourth level (correct me if I have this assertion wrong), what is so special about them that I must seek them? I have no interest in seeking the Divine Eye. Why should I? I think those who advocate for the Pursuit of Jhaana simply miss the point that it is of No Consequence what particular dhamma is the object of pa~n~naa when the sequence of moments of consciousness leading to a Path moment - when Nibbaana is the object - finds conditions to arise. I fail to see why jhaana is so, so very Important. It seems to me that this is pushed as hard as Religion on the Heathens. From the sutta, the phrase: "Ime aasavaati yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati, aya.m aasavasamudayoti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati, aya.m aasavanirodhoti yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati, aya.m aasavanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaati yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati." Scott: The functional element is Pa~n~naa. Not Jhaana. Not the Abhi~n~naas, which are a natural consequence of jhaana (again subject to correction). Pa~n~naa, of sufficient developmental strength, can 'understand' that this is a given dhamma, this is the origin of a given dhamma, this is the cessation of a given dhamma, and this 'understanding' - a function of pa~n~naa - is 'the way leading to the cessation of the taints'. H: "Don't these suffice?" Scott: No, not in my view, see above. Sincerely, Scott. #80416 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - For me it is crystal clear that the Buddha saw great value in attaining the jhanas and urged that, but if you see no value in attaining the jhanas, that's your business. With metta, Howard #80417 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply: H: "For me it is crystal clear that the Buddha saw great value in attaining the jhanas and urged that, but if you see no value in attaining the jhanas, that's your business." Scott: If you don't wish to discuss this, that's fine. I as much as reminded you that this gets Hot each time we try. I am aware that the Buddha saw value in the attaining of the jhaanas. I think it was because this was something that many were Capable of In The Day. You misunderstand me if you think I see no value in the jhaanas. I see no value in the Pursuit of Jhaana In Our Day And Age, that is, if one hasn't got a clear sense that one has the requisite developments. I've yet to get much of an argument from those who pursue the jhaanas which justifies this pursuit. I can't see it as anything more than just wanting to experience something that is Very Cool. No one ever seems to say anything more than 'The Buddha said so'. Your reply to my statement to Alex was to give me a reference which referred to some Very Exciting states, as if to suggest that these Enticing Things are what its all about. You don't respond to what I think is a salient and serious question: Why, since pa~n~naa is the functional element, should the pursuit of Jhaana be the thing that is so Strongly Pushed and so Idealised? This is so Hot A Concern that if I question it - a desirable quality that is given much lip-service only when one's own Shibboleths are not the object of inquiry - I'm no longer the object of Reasonable Discourse, but am Dismissed. Oh, Poor Me. Please give it a try. This line of discussion has Languished at this level Forever. Pretend you are an Evangelist with my Salvation In The Balance. Why should I pursue Jhaana? Sincerely, Scott. #80418 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:07 am Subject: Ekagatta: One-Pointedness or Tranquillity? (Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy) upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/22/2007 6:07:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Did Buddha really teach concentration? First lets remember that word such as: Ekaggata DOES NOT mean concentration! Ekagga= calm, tranquil pg 184 (A new course in reading Pali). ================================ Alex, when I first read this, though I liked it, I also wondered whether that "new course in reading Pali" and that definition were no idiosyncratic. But a few minutes ago I looked at Childer's Pali dictionary, and I was fascinated to see the following:\ 1) The definition he gives for 'ekaggo' is "Calm, tranquil," and 2) The definition he gives for 'ekaggata' is "Tranquillity of the mind, abstraction of the mind [Note: I don't know what he means by that], contemplation" With metta, Howard #80419 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation nilovg Dear Rober A, Op 22-dec-2007, om 21:20 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > Intellectional understanding is a condition for the arising of sati > that is > directly aware, without thinking, sati that is aware of a > characteristic. > Yet, it appears to be aware of a characteristic without naming that > characteristic. This is what interests me. This is what I call the > experience of something, such as anger or desire. What I am having > trouble understanding is how study and intellectuial analysis of these > characteristics enhances our ability to experience. ------- N: If we do not know anything about the realities that can be objects of awareness, we shall get lost. We need to know that the object of awareness can be: any dhamma appearing now through one of the six doorways. We need to know that they are not concepts of a whole such as a table or a person. As intellectual understanding grows there will be conditions for direct awareness of one dhamma at a time. But there are many pitfalls. When we believe that we experience anger or desire, it may not be sati and pa~n~naa. Why? There is still an idea of: I notice, I experience, even if there is not thinking in words. Anger or desire have to be understood as mere dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. Kh. Sujin repeats many times: everything is dhamma. We may repeat these words, but do we really understand this: whatever appears is a conditioned dhamma. Nobody created it, directed it, made it appear. I liked her example: there is seeing at this moment, it has already arisen, nobody creates this. And this goes also for sati. Nobody can create it. When people speak about insight as an experience beyond words it sounds like a very special experience. But the teachings are very much down to earth. The dhammas that are objects of sati are exactly the same as seeing now, hearing now, hardness now, only gradually there will be more understanding of them. I quote again from my post today: < Thus, there are different levels of paññå: intellectual understanding based on listening to the Dhamma, and paññå accompanied by sati that is directly aware of the characteristics of realities appearing now through one of the six doorways. These are the dhammas we studied and considered before, but now they can gradually be verified and directly understood. Knowing the difference between the moment there is no sati but only thinking about nåma and rúpa, and the moment there is awareness of one characteristic of nåma or rúpa at a time is the beginning of the development of satipatthåna. Gradually we shall realize nåma as nåma, and rúpa as rúpa, we shall realize their different characteristics.> The objects of sati and pa~n~naa are nothing else but the dhammas we studied and considered before. ------ You wrote to Howard about Wu Wei: R: There could be similarities, but at the same time, Khun Sujin's teaching is so different when you consider Zen's most famous description: "A special transmission outside the sutras; No reliance on words and letters; Direct pointing to the very mind; Seeing into one's own nature." ------ N: As in my post today: the first round, intellectual understanding of what appears at the present moment is not given up at the second round: the task of sati, nor at the third round, the realization of the truth. --------- R: This is something I have never been able to resolve - the no-control aspect of her teachings with what seems like a very conceptual approach through the Abhidhamma analysis, since doing a lot of analysis seems to me to be control - doing this to achieve that. ------ N: I feel that this is more like cultivating the right conditions, as indicated by the Buddha. Remember the sutta about drawing near and listening. As to no control, when we use the word control we usually have an idea of self who controls. But there is no one who could exert control. Still there is right effort, and that is a mental factor, not us. Pa~n~naa is an indriya, a controlling factor. Sati is another controlling factor. So are confidence, energy, and samaadhi. They develop together. Nina. #80420 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhaana, was: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Hi Howard, which verse? It could be lokuttara citta which is accompanied by jhaanafactors. It depends on the context which meaning jhana has here. It can also be the kind of jhana that has as object one of the three characteristics (lakkha.nupaanijjha-jhaana) thus not the kasinas, etc (arammanupanijjha-jhaana). There are two kinds of jhaana depending on the object. What I find really worrysome is that some people may take a special exstatic experience, due to former accumulations in past lives, for jhaana. This may be mentally upsetting, one has to be so very, very careful. Nina. Op 22-dec-2007, om 23:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > And in the Dhammapada he taught: > ___________________________________ > > There's no jhana > for one with no discernment, > no > discernment > for one with no jhana. > But one with both jhana > & > discernment: > he's on the verge > of Unbinding. #80421 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:29 am Subject: RE: The Next Section Re: [dsg] Dart Sutta - Contemplation of Feeling dacostacharles Hi Howard, This is good. I agree totally. However, in this case, I would not talk about the five Aggregates or Groups of Existence (khandha), constituting what is conventionally called "a person." I would instead, relate the other four aggregates to . (-can't express myself/think clearly-) .. to being part of the complex that arises with feeling. Like when you said: "Feeling is one of the four mental Aggregates which arise, - inseparably -, in all states of consciousness; the other three are perception, mental formations, and consciousness. " I would just drop ". in all states of consciousness;" and add the word -With-. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 21:15 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Next Section Re: [dsg] Dart Sutta - Contemplation of Feeling Hi again, Dieter, TG, and all - Here is the next section of Ven Nyanaponika's article with brief commentary by me: The Place of "Feeling" in Buddhist Psychology It should be first made clear that, in Buddhist psychology, "feeling" (Pali: vedana) is the bare sensation noted as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) and neutral (indifferent). Hence, it should not be confused with emotion which, though arising from the basic feeling, adds to it likes or dislikes of varying intensity, as well as other thought processes. Feeling, in that sense, is one of the five Aggregates or Groups of Existence (khandha), constituting what is conventionally called "a person." The specific factors operative in emotion belong to the Aggregate of Mental Formations (sankhara-kkhandha). <....> #80422 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply. I find it to be rather a Barrage. A veritable Shotgun Blast. Are you trying to Kill Me? A: "Only when 5 hindrances are absent you can truly understand Buddha's teaching. Plus, only then can you achiev the paths and the fruits." Scott: What are you saying here, Alex? I don't think this makes any sense at all. When jhaana, at any level, has arisen, then, by the simple fact that it has arisen, the hindrances are absent. It is just a natural consequence. Are you saying that simply by entering one of the jhaanas that one then 'understands Buddha's teaching'? Or are you actually opining that the only way to 'understand Buddha's teaching' is to enter jhaana? I don't think you understand the Big Picture at all. Yours is an incredibly Jhaana-Centric view. A: "...In Jhana, the hindrances are removed and the higher mind is being developed." Scott: What is this 'higher mind' and why should it be developed? A: "First of all, Jhana IS NOT CONCENTRATION. It is much more than that." Scott: Please tell me what you see jhaana to Consist of, and, while you're at it, where you get your Facts. I'd like to see you describe these complex states without reference to the Abhidhamma analysis which allows you to tell me of what this state consists. If you do, I guarantee you'll get it wrong. A: "...2nd) It is a must, even if it lasts for a second." Scott: How is 'jhaana' a must? Again, you must tell me of what Jhaana consists. A: "Those who mouth down Jhana are doing great disservice and demerit." Scott: Would you please Stop This Sort of Thing. Can't we just have a simple discussion without all this Rhetoric? I'm just asking you to back up your assertions about jhaana. I don't agree with you. Its a discussion, not the Spanish Inquisition. I'll deal with The Rest later. Shorter posts are much better (says the kettle to the pot). Otherwise one might think you were Foaming At The Mouth. Ha ha. What a Goof I am. Sincerely, Scott. #80423 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:01 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply. I find it to be rather a Barrage. A veritable > Shotgun Blast. Are you trying to Kill Me? > Scott: How is 'jhaana' a must? Again, you must tell me of what Jhaana > consists. > > A: "Those who mouth down Jhana are doing great disservice and demerit." > > Scott: Would you please Stop This Sort of Thing. Can't we just have a > simple discussion without all this Rhetoric? I'm just asking you to > back up your assertions about jhaana. I don't agree with you. Its a > discussion, not the Spanish Inquisition. No, what is really happening here is another confrontation from the DSG thugs, the DSG bullies. As soon as anyone mentions the benefits of meditation/jhana we can count on one of the DSG thugs to speak up and try to silence them. This is done with bullying: relentless questioning and passive-aggressive comments until the attacked member gives up. The bully takes great pleasure in these confrontations; and the moderators do nothing to stop it. It is a consolidated effort to keep DSG a meditation free zone. It is ugly and it does accumulate great demerit for those bullies who perpetuate it and for those moderators who allow it. Metta, James #80424 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Alex, This is superb post about jhana! I really enjoyed reading it and learned a few things. There is one thing I want to comment on: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Also another thing: Does physical breathing disappear in 4th Ecstasy > and in Arupa Ecstasy? At first it seems to be the case, especially if > we read MN43 where Kaya-Sankhara is defined as in-out breathing. > However if we check the Anapanasati sutta step #4 (calming the kaya- > sankhara) we will notice that the breath IS present in ALL 16 steps > of Anapanasati, even with 4th step to calm kaya-sankhara. If the > breath would totally disappear, then one would be UNABLE to do steps > 5-16. Furthermore it seems that breathing IS present even in arupa > Jhana. This aspect of breath supposedly stopping in the fourth jhana is perplexing to me. First of all, how could a person stop breathing? The brain needs oxygen to function so the person would pass out if they stop breathing. So, from a physical standpoint, it doesn't seem to make much sense to me. However, the Buddha did teach that: "I have further taught, monk, the gradual cessation of conditioned phenomena. In him who has attained the first meditative absorption (jhana), speech has ceased. Having attained the second absorption, thought-conception and discursive thinking has ceased. Having attained the third absorption, joy has ceased. Having attained the fourth absorption, inhalation and exhalation have ceased...." But, the Buddha has once practiced stopping inhalation and exhalation and it had bad results: "I thought: 'Suppose I were to become absorbed in the trance of non-breathing.' So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth. As I did so, there was a loud roaring of winds coming out my earholes, just like the loud roar of winds coming out of a smith's bellows... So I stopped the in-breaths & out-breaths in my nose & mouth & ears. As I did so, extreme forces sliced through my head, just as if a strong man were slicing my head open with a sharp sword... Extreme pains arose in my head, just as if a strong man were tightening a turban made of tough leather straps around my head... Extreme forces carved up my stomach cavity, just as if a butcher or his apprentice were to carve up the stomach cavity of an ox... There was an extreme burning in my body, just as if two strong men, grabbing a weaker man by the arms, were to roast & broil him over a pit of hot embers. So, this is a very confusing aspect of the jhanas to me. Metta, James #80425 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:26 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy kenhowardau Hi James and Alex, I think you will agree there are two types of Buddhism being discussed at DSG. One is a religion in which devotees strive to find eternal peace and happiness in Nibbana. The other is an understanding of the present reality. The second kind has no concept of a self that will "go on" to find enlightenment in the future. Therefore, any conventional ideas of striving for enlightenment (formal meditation practices) are totally foreign to it. Followers of the second kind of Buddhism will never go back to the first kind. Nor will they give it their stamp of approval. Sometimes this makes them seem unkind and unfriendly. I know from the recorded talks that there have been occasions when people have almost begged K Sujin to approve of their formal practices. As she sees it, however, they are seeking permission to keep going 'round and round on the wheel of samsara.' And so, for their sakes, she never gives it. Ken H > > No, what is really happening here is another confrontation from the > DSG thugs, the DSG bullies. As soon as anyone mentions the benefits > of meditation/jhana we can count on one of the DSG thugs to speak up > and try to silence them. This is done with bullying: relentless > questioning and passive-aggressive comments until the attacked member > gives up. The bully takes great pleasure in these confrontations; and > the moderators do nothing to stop it. It is a consolidated effort to > keep DSG a meditation free zone. It is ugly and it does accumulate > great demerit for those bullies who perpetuate it and for those > moderators who allow it. > #80426 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:40 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: J: "No, what is really happening here is another confrontation from the DSG thugs, the DSG bullies. As soon as anyone mentions the benefits of meditation/jhana we can count on one of the DSG thugs to speak up and try to silence them. This is done with bullying: relentless questioning and passive-aggressive comments until the attacked member gives up. The bully takes great pleasure in these confrontations; and the moderators do nothing to stop it. It is a consolidated effort to keep DSG a meditation free zone. It is ugly and it does accumulate great demerit for those bullies who perpetuate it and for those moderators who allow it." Scott: Nonsense. I invite you to try to answer the question directly as well: Why the Idealisation of Jhaana? I think that the whole Form and Identity of the Meditator, seated in the Traditional Manner, has become the West's Performance Art Piece Par Excellence in Honour of the Buddhist Religion. Rebuttal, please. Sincerely, Scott. #80427 From: "Robert" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation avalo1968 Hello Nina, Thank you once again for your detailed and good reply. I will have to consider what you wrote, so I won't say any more at this time. Have a Merry Christmas. Robert A. #80428 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:00 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > I think that the whole Form and Identity of the Meditator, seated in > the Traditional Manner, has become the West's Performance Art Piece > Par Excellence in Honour of the Buddhist Religion. > > Rebuttal, please. The image of the Buddhist meditator has been around for thousands of years: Let us begin by briefly exploring Gandhāra. In ancient India, Gandhāra originally referred to a tribe, but later came to denote a place connected with that tribe, that is to say, the Peshawar Valley, located between the Suleiman Mountains along the modern border with Afghanistan in the west and the Indus River in the east. This area is now part of the North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan.... The products of the Gandhāran school of art are among the most famous of all creations of Buddhist art. Gandhāran art can tell us about meditation in Gandhāra in two ways. First, through illustrations of meditation being practised, and second, through depecitions that could be used as subjects for meditation. Illustrations of meditation, which attest to the contemporary practice of meditation in Gandhāra are found, but for the most part consist of Buddha images. Typical of these are depictions of the Buddha in the classic meditation posture (dyāna mudra). Images of monks in meditation are rarer. One very clear example of a monk practicing a specific meditation comes from a wall painting in Qizil, Xinjiang. Admittedly Qizil is some distance from Gandhāra, but was certainly influenced by Gandhāra, as demonstrated by the fact that Kharoṣṭhī documents have been discovered there. Consequently, it is sometimes included in the area covered by the term Greater Gandhāra. This painting is datable to the 4th and 5th centuries of the Common Era. The painting shows a monk looking at, or perhaps thinking about a human skull. Clearly this suggests that the monk is most likely reflecting on death (1.1.5), or possibly the constituents or decomposition of the human body (1.1.1). These possibilities are included in the outline of meditation practices given previously. http://www.bojosasang.net/include/file/filedown.php?SID=105. Metta and Merry Christmas! James #80429 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] - Nirodha sarahprocter... Hi Alex (& all), I think the main discussion points now are: 1. Is prior attainment of Jhana essential to enlightenment? 2. Are all jhanas required? 3. Is nirodha samapatti a requisite condition for enlightenment and is it obtainable anyway for those who are not anagamis or arahants? 4. Is it really possible to obtain jhana today and to do so during one's 'insight meditation' on the cushion? (5. ....and by the way, what is this hour of 'insight meditation' anyway?) Let's look in some detail at the sutta you quote in support of a) jhanas being essential, b) nirodha samapatti being essential. We can consider more on the other points another time. Alex wrote: > Here is entire AN9.36 Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html > "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the > dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the > infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell > you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension > of neither perception nor non-perception. .... S: The Pali has nissaaya for the translation'depends on'. Nissaaya is support condition. For those who obtain jhanas just prior to insight/enlightenment, or here arahantship, the jhanas are a 'support' in that they are the objects fully known with insight. For those who do not obtain jhanas prior to insight/enlightenment, other dhammas are the 'support'. In B.Bodhi's translation (in 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'), he gives this note here: "In what follows the Buddha will show the attainment of arahantship (or the state of non-returning) through a method that employs tranquillity as a basis for insight. The method described seems to correspond to 'insight preceded by tranquillity', though it might also be interpreted as 'tranquillity and insight joined in pairs' [see AN IV, 170, Yuganadha Sutta]. S: I would phrase this a little differently, but the point is that as we read in the Yuganadha Sutta, 'tranquillity as a basis for insight' or 'insight preceded by tranquillity' does not always occur. In fact, I'd argue that it is only in exceptional cases, such as for some disciples in the time of the Buddha or soon after. ..... > "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it > said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, > withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first > jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by > directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there > that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & > consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an > arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, > not-self. ... S: As the text indicates, jhana and jhana factors are a support for the path only when they too are seen as anicca, dukkha and anatta. Such states are not seen with insight when jhana cittas are present, but only when they have fallen away. [see end of sutta] Again, let me include B.Bodhi's note at the same point again where I paused to discuss: "The attainment of jhaana is samatha or tranquillity; the contemplation of the constituent phenomena as impermanent, etc., is vipassanaa or insight, according to AA [S: the sub-commentary, Tiika] 'powerful insight-wisdom'. In this passage the Buddha explains how the meditator develops insight using the jhaana as the basis for contemplation. The meditator dissects the experience of jhaana into the five aggregates (form, feeling, etc.), and then examines the aggregates by way of eleven qualities. These eleven qualities are elaborations of the three general characteristics: two terms - impermanent and disintegrating - fall under the characteristic of impermanence; three - alien, empty and non-self - under the characteristic of non-self; and the remaining six - suffering....affliction - under the characteristic of suffering." S: Again, I might argue with the phrasing, but the main point is that when there is insight, there is no mundane jhana citta arising. The jhana cittas have fallen away, but the characteristic of the cittas (and factors) are directly known with insight as khandhas, as anicca, dukkha and anatta. There is complete detachment from such experiences. Without insight into the jhanas, they are not any basis/support for enlightenment at all. ..... >He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having > done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is > peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the > relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; > dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' Again, looking at what B.Bodhi adds at the end of this passage: "This striking passage shows the transition from the highest level of insight to the supramundane path. When, by insight, the monk has fully fathomed the afflictive nature of the five aggregates, his mind turns away from all conditioned phenomena and focuses upon Nibbaana, 'the deathless element', as the only genuine escape from conditioned existence. He then attains arahantship; but if a subtle clinging to that experience remains, a subtle enjoyment of it, he becomes a non-returner, who attains parinibbaana after being reborn in a celestial realm ..... > "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a > straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become > able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid > succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the > case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & > pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected > with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as > inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an > affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns > his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his > mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is > exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of > all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; > Unbinding.' ... S: I believe this refers to one skilled in jhana and insight, like an accomplished archer. With the growth of insight, there is more and more detachment from all conditioned dhammas, including jhanas, as wisdom turns more and more towards the unconditioned, the animitta (signless) dhamma, nibbana. Again, looking at B.Bodhi's note: "AA does not explain the simile, but it seems that the practice on the straw man is like the insight contemplation of the aggregates, while the feeling of the large body is like the destruction of the taints by penetrating the deathless element." .... > "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental > fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very dhamma-passion, > this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the > first five of the fetters1 — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure > Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that > world. ... S: See BB note above about the anagami. ... > "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first jhana.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. > > (Similarly with the other levels of jhana up through the dimension of > nothingness.) > > "Thus, as far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as > gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two spheres — the attainment of > the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the > attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception — I tell you that > they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, > skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have > attained & emerged in dependence on them." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html ..... S: For me, the key words here are 'who have attained & emerged in dependence on them'. There is no insight whilst in jhana or nirodha samapatti. BB's note" "The base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is too subtle to be explored by insight knowledge, and the cessation of perception and feeling is altogether devoid of mental constituents. Thus these two attainments cannot be directly taken as objects for investigation with insight. But both can be used as means for achieving temporary purification of the mind, on the basis of which the meditator can practise insight meditation on grosser objects and thereby attain arahantship." S: Conditions, especially natural decisive support condition are very wide. Here, I understand these attainments to be support and natural decisive support condition for insight/enlightenment for those who are already anagamis. So here in the case of nirodha samapatti as a decisive support condition, it is anagamis that are being referred to. This is why 'arahantship' only is mentioned, not lower enlightenment. Thanks for the opportunity to consider this sutta in detail, Alex. Not an easy one to follow without careful reflection. Corrections welcome! Metta, Sarah ====== #80430 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:08 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 220, 221 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 220, 221. [(vi) Contact] Intro: Thus far the Visuddhimagga explained the following links of the Dependent Origination: ignorance conditions kamma-formations, kamma-formations condition consciousness (vipaakacitta), consciousness conditions naama/ruupa (naama are cetasikas), naama/ruupa condition the six bases (the senses-bases and the mind- base, here vipaakacitta). In the following sections it is explained that the six bases condition contact. Each citta experiences an object and contact, phassa, is a cetasika that accompanies citta and 'contacts' the object. Without contact citta could not experience any object. Contact is classified in brief as sixfold, and in detail as thirtytwo when the vipaakacittas that are mundane are taken into account. This is in accordance with the method of the Dependant Origination that states: ‘the six bases condition contact’, and here contact accompanying vipaakacittas is meant. ------------ Text Vis. 220: As to the clause 'With the sixfold base as condition, contact': Contact is briefly of six kinds With eye-contact and others too; According to each consciousness It is in detail thirty-two. ********* 221. Briefly, with the clause 'With the sixfold base as condition, contact', there are only six kinds beginning with eye-contact, that is to say, eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact, and mind-contact. But in detail the five profitable resultant and the five unprofitable resultant beginning with eye-contact make ten; -------- N: Contact accompanying the vipaakacittas which are the five sense- cognitions, such as seeing, etc., are ten: contact accompanying five kusala vipaakacittas and five akusala vipaakacittas. --------- Text Vis.: the rest, which are associated with the twenty-two kinds of mundane resultant consciousness, make twenty-two. ------ N: The Tiika emphasizes here that there is reference to contact accompanying the twenty-two kinds of mundane consciousness, baavisati- lokiyavi~n~naa.nasampayuttaa. Thus, contact accompanying lokuttara vipaakacittas is not included here. Vi~n~naa.na, consciousness, stands here in this context for vipaakacitta. --------- Text Vis.: So all these come to thirty-two ((34)-(65)), like the consciousness with formations as condition given above. ------- N: As to ‘consciousness, vi~n~naa.na, with formations as condition, this refers to the second link of the Dependent Origination: kusala kamma, akusala kamma and imperturbable kamma (aruupa-jhaana) condition vi~n~naa.na, consciousness, which is here vipaakacitta. The text refers to Vis. 120: Text Vis. 120: In the clause, 'with formations as condition, consciousness', consciousness is sixfold as eye-consciousness, and so on. Herein, eye-consciousness is twofold, namely, profitable [kamma-] resultant and unprofitable [kamma-] resultant. Likewise ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body consciousness. But mind-consciousness is twenty-two-fold, namely, the two profitable and unprofitable resultant mind elements and the three rootless mind-consciousness elements, -------- N: The text elaborates here on the vipaakacittas that are in this context are called mind-consciousness. They are: two types of receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta, the rootless (ahetuka) kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta arising after each of the sense-cognitions, classified here as mind- element. Furthermore, there are three types of investigating-consciousness, santiira.nacitta, which are rootless, ahetuka. One type is akusala vipaakacitta and two types are kusala vipaakacitta, accompanied by indifferent feeling or by happy feeling, classified here as mind- consciousness element. ------------- Text Vis.120: and the eight sense-sphere resultant consciousnesses with root-cause (sahetuka), the five of the fine-material sphere, and the four of the immaterial sphere. ---------- N: These are the eight types of vipaakacittas with sobhana hetus, beautiful roots, which are the results of kusala kamma. Of these, four types are accompanied by wisdom, four types are not accompanied by wisdom; four types are accompanied by pleasant feeling and four types by indifferent feeling; four types are asa.nkhaarika (unprompted, spontaneous, not induced by someone else or by one's own consideration) and four types are sasa.nkhaarika (prompted, by someone else or by oneself). Furthermore, there are five ruupaavacara vipaakacittas, the results of ruupa-jhaana, and four aruupaavacara vipaakacittas, the results of aruupa-jhaana. Summarizing the above mentioned twentytwo vipaakacittas, they are: two types of receiving-consciousness, three types of investigating- consciousness, eight types of sahetuka (with roots) kusala vipaakacittas, five types of ruupa-jhaanacittas and four types of aruupa-jhaanacittas. These twentytwo vipaakacittas and the five pairs of sense-cognitions are altogether thirtytwo kinds of mundane resultant consciousness. --------- Text Vis.120: But the supramundane kinds do not belong to the exposition of the round [of becoming], and so they are not included. --------- N: They are leading out of the cycle. Contact that accompanies mundane vipaakacitta can be classified as thirtytwo-fold. --------- Conclusion : As we read in the text, there are different contacts through each of the six doorways: eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue- contact, body-contact, and mind-contact. The text can remind us that there can only be the experience of one object through one doorway at a time. The cetasika contact performs its function so that citta can experience that object. We read in the 'Book of Analysis' Ch 16, (762, 763) that the sense- cognitions have different physical bases and different objects: <'Do not experience each other's object' means: Ear consciousness does not experience the object of eye consciousness; eye consciousness does not experience the object of ear consciousness either. Nose consciousness does not experience the object of eye consciousness; eye consciousness does not experience the object of nose consciousness either....> And so on for each of the cittas experiencing an object through one doorway. When visible object impinges on the eyesense there are the right conditions for seeing. When sound impinges on the earsense, there are the right conditions for hearing. Only one citta at a time arises and it experiences only one object. Mostly we are confused as to the experience of only one object through one doorway at a time. We are absorbed in the outward appearance of things and we take what we experience for people and things which exist. Through the development of satipa.t.thaana one comes to know the characteristics of realities as they appear one at a time. One learns that what appears is only a conditioned dhamma that is non-self. ****** Nina. #80431 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation nilovg Dear Robert A, Thank you for your good wishes and I wish you a peaceful Christmas and year end. you are right that you want to consider and not react now. Nina. Op 24-dec-2007, om 5:57 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > I will have to > consider what you wrote, so I won't say any more at this time. > > Have a Merry Christmas. #80432 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma, Suttas & Meditation sarahprocter... Hi Alex, A reply to #78753 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > Why study Abhidhamma? How does it help on the path? <...> > One of the reasons why Sutta study is prerequisite is because it > teaches "What is to be Done?". What to do and what to avoid. .... S: This neatly summarises why the Abhidhamma is so helpful and why reading the Anattalakhana Sutta is not enough, with one or two other suttas as you suggest, to dispel the idea of Atta/ Whilst there is still the idea of 'what is to be Done' and 'What to do and what to avoid', it indicates that Atta-view is still strong and there is the idea that the suttas can be read as recipes for a Self to follow. With a greater appreciation of Abhidhamma (I don't mean text expertise, I mean understanding of dhammas appearing at this moment), there will be less and less idea of 'What is to be Done' and a greater appreciation of conditioned dhammas regardless of what is being done. .... > Meditation is the lab where one can practice the principles of > anicca -> dukha -> anatta and practically put them in action. ... S: Again this is the view of Self that can 'do' a practice and put principles into action. Metta, Sarah ======= #80433 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:29 am Subject: Re: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > > S: Does kamma have to be 'stored' anywhere? Yes, it may be a > question of semantics. Is the salt 'stored' in the ocean? ... > If Kamma is not stored anywhere, then what causes Kammic effects? How > can there be results of greed, if causes "greed" isn't stored > anywhere? .... S: If we refer to kamma being stored, it tends to suggest something lasting or preserved. Cetana or kamma falls away like all other dhammas as soon as it has arisen. However, its 'force' is accumulated. As each citta conditions the next citta in an unbroken series of cittas, kamma can bring a result later. The latent tendency of greed is also accumulated. This tendency lies dormant until there are conditions for it to arise. If it is strong enough, it will lead to a course of kamma-patha which will bring its result(s) later. This is a difficult topic. Happy to discuss further. Metta, Sarah p.s I meant to say before that I liked your post #78746 to Charles D in which you stressed a 'Dynamic Process', 'Knowing does NOT require a knower', 'the world's designations' etc. All good points to stress. ====== #80434 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Absorption 'Concentration' Vs Buddha's wise Jhanic Ecstasy sarahprocter... Hi Alex again (& all***) --- Alex wrote: > Did Buddha really teach concentration? First lets remember that word > such as: > > Ekaggata DOES NOT mean concentration! Ekagga= calm, tranquil pg 184 > (A new course in reading Pali). ... S: Sorry, but ekaggata does mean concentration or one-pointedness. It is a 'universal' meantal factor which arises with every single citta. The mental factor which is calm or tranquillity is passaddhi. (Actually, there are two mental factors of calm - one refers to calm of citta and one to calm of cetasikas). There is calm or tranquillity with all wholesome cittas. This is actually samatha (which is why BB's comment about jhana referring to samatha was not quite accurate). At moments of dana or sila or metta now there is calm or samatha. .... <...> > BTW, Abhidhammikas believe that we perceive only one citta (or > object) at a time. This actually means that theoretically speaking we > are constantly in a form of momentary concentration... ... S: Or to rephrase it, there is only ever one citta arising at a time, only ever experiencing one object at a time. .... > Another thing. When you concentrate hard you get headaches! When you > have headaches it is hard to experience piti-sukha rapture & > happiness. ... S: Yes, because the concentration is akusala - worse than useless! .... >Also another result of treating Samadhi or Jhana as > concentration is the breaking the path into two paths (not found in > the suttas). You can't really have insight if you are in blind-deaf- > cognitionless trance. ... S: Definitely not. And if one has the illusion that concentrating and concentrating will be of any value whatsoever on the path and pursues such a practice, one goes further and further away from the Teachings. Better never to have heard about the Buddha or Dhamma than to follow a path of wrong concentration and wrong view, desperately trying to attain jhanas in a sea of delusion! (That's my Xmas message to you, Alex:-)) ... <..> > Am I saying 'no study, go sit facing a wall?' . Absolutely not. Sutta > study is a big MUST. If you read only 50 pages per day, then you'll > finish Main Nikays in about 4 month. After this if you aren't pushing > toward the stream (or there already), the cultivation of Buddhist > Jhana (Ecstasy of Letting Go and seeing clearly) will. Buddha's > teaching is about letting go, finding ultimate freedom. ... S: Sorry, Alex, but what you write above - finishing the Nikayas, 'pushing toward the stream....Jhana......' all seems to refer to strong attachment and clinging to Self, rather than detachment and 'letting go'. .... <...> > Anyhow: "Winners find solutions, Losers find excuses." ... S: Or "No Winners, No Losers, just illusion or delusion!" ***A very wise Xmas and New Year to you and all. Thank you and all for participating with us here and helping DSG to be such a worthwhile, dhamma-intense, friendly and highly contentious resource:-)*** Metta, Sarah ======== #80435 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sutta vs Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Last one for a few days.... --- Alex wrote: > It seem that you are assuming that Dhamma means Abhidhamma. > > In AN 4.180 it says that Dhamma = the Discources (Suttas). ... S: It says 'This is Dhamma, this is Vinaya, this is the Master's teaching' (aya.m dhammo aya.m vinayo ida.m sattusaasana"nti) The Dhamma-Vinaya, as made clear in the commentaries, refers to the Tipitaka. Sutta = Suttanta-Abhidhamma-Pi.takaani. .... > >S: I've shown how at the time of the 1st council, the Tipitaka was > referred to as Dhamma-Vinaya. I believe in suttas such as the > > Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the Buddha instructed the bhikkhus to take > the `dhamma-vinaya' as their Teacher after he passed away. > >>> > > > > In the series I wrote on the Vinaya and its commentary, the > Bahiranidana, I indicated how the Khudakka Nikaya included in the > recital includes the > > Abhidhamma texts. In the Atthasalini (the commentary to the > > Dhammasangani), it says: > >>> > >A: That is commentary. I am far too conservative to be a radical > Theravadin. .... S: This is where you have it very wrong. It is the 'conservative' or traditional Theravadins who have always carefully accepted and preserved the Abhidhamma Pitaka and commentaries, the entire Pali canon until it was closed after the first few Councils. As I.B. Horner wrote: "They [S: the commentaries] are as 'closed' now as is the Pali Canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included within it." S: In other words, it is the 'radical Theravadins' who wish to chop out original texts accepted at these early Councils and add modern interpretations of those left intact. ... > You are putting too much emphasis on literal study which simply DID > NOT EXIST IN PEASANT SOCIETY OF THOSE TIMES. It seems very unlikely > that most of the monks knew more than 10-20 AT BEST suttas. Also, > Sariputta learned only a single paragraph from Assaji (?) before > joining Buddha. Then it seems that he learned a sutta which helped > him to achieve Cessation + Arahatship. Of course he probably also > heard the meditation instructions (so 3 suttas total, where > one "sutta" was very short one) .... S: Again, you are mistaken here. In this 'peasant society' as you refer to it, people were highly sophisticated, skilled and had attained the highest jhanas. They came from all walks of life, including royalty and the great warrior castes. Many were 'ripe' for enlightenment, having developed the paramis over incalculable aeons. It was no coincidence at all that they were born at this time. At the First Council, the teachings were recited perfectly. There is no question of these arahants only having heard a few suttas. Of course, when Sariputta heard a single paragraph, this was enough for him to become enlightened. Not for us!! Thanks for all your other comments and reflections. I apologise for having to cut so much out. Please re-quote any paragraphs (pls not entire v.long posts) which you'd particularly like me to discuss further or respond to. Thanks for the good discussions. Will speak after Xmas. Metta, Sarah ======== #80436 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:20 am Subject: Today is Unduwap Poya Day! bhikkhu0 Friends: How to be Real Buddhist through Observance? Unduwap Poya is this Fullmoon of December celebrating 2 events: 1: The arrival of Nun Theri Sanghamitta , sister of Arahat Mahinda , from India in the 3rd century B.C. establishing the Order of Nuns. 2: The arrival at Anuradhapura of a sapling of the sacred Bodhi-tree at Buddhagaya, brought to Sri Lanka by Arahat Theri Sanghamitta . This day is designated Sanghamitta Day. Nowadays Dasasil Matas; ten-precept nuns, take an active part in making these celebrations. Details on the Arahat Nun Theri Sanghamitta and the MahaBodhi : See: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/sa/sanghamitta_theri.htm & the Tree http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/b/bodhirukka.htm On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges & undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I hereby accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in/to this world! So is the start towards NibbÄ?na: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha / observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish a recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The Modern Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html PS: Merry Christmas to U all! And a happy New-Year too! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #80437 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:53 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (72) nichiconn Dear Sisters Enthusiasts, Part 12 15. Cattaaliisanipaato 1. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 408. "Atha me saaketato varakaa, aagacchumuttamakuliinaa; se.t.thii pahuutaratano, tassa mama.m su.numadaasi taato. 406. Then from Saaketa came men belonging to a most excellent family to woo me. A merchant with abundant treasure [sent them]. My father gave me to him as a daughter-in-law. Athaati pacchaa mama vayappattakaale. Me saaketato varakaati saaketanagarato mama varakaa ma.m vaarentaa aagacchu.m. Uttamakuliinaati tasmi.m nagare aggakulikaa, yena te pesitaa, so se.t.thi pahuutaratano. Tassa mama.m su.nhamadaasi taatoti tassa saaketase.t.thino su.nisa.m puttassa bhariya.m katvaa mayha.m pitaa ma.m adaasi. 406. Then means: afterwards, when I came of age. From Saaketa (Saketato) [came men] to woo (varakaa) me (me) means: [men] came to woo me (mama) to ask for me in marriage (ma.m vaarentaa). Belonging to a most excellent family (uttama-kuliinaa) means: belonging to the leading family (agga-kulikaa) in that town, [the one] by whom they were sent, that merchant with abundant treasure. My father (taato) gave me to him as a daughter-in-law (su.nisa.m), having made me the son's wife. 409. "Sassuyaa sasurassa ca, saaya.m paata.m pa.naamamupagamma; sirasaa karomi paade, vandaami yathaamhi anusi.t.thaa. 407. Approaching morning and evening, I did obeisance with my head to my father-in-law and mother-in-law. I paid homage to their feet as I had been instructed. Saaya.m paatanti saayanhe pubba.nhe ca. Pa.naamamupagamma sirasaa karomiiti sassuyaa sasurassa ca santika.m upagantvaa sirasaa pa.naama.m karomi, tesa.m paade vandaami. Yathaamhi anusi.t.thaati tehi yathaa anusi.t.thaa amhi, tathaa karomi, tesa.m anusi.t.thi.m na atikkamaami. 407. Morning (paata.m) and evening (saaya.m) means: in the morning (pubb'-a.nhe) and in the evening (saay'-a.nhe). Approaching (upaga-mma), I did obeisance with my head means: having gone (upagantvaa) into the presence of my father-in-law and mother-in-law, I did obeisance with my head. I paid homage to their feet. As I ('mhi) had been instructed (anusi.t.thaa) means: as I (amhi) had been instructed by them, so I did. I did not transgress against their instruction (anusi.t.thi.m). 410. "Yaa mayha.m saamikassa, bhaginiyo bhaatuno parijano vaa; tamekavarakampi disvaa, ubbiggaa aasana.m demi. 408. Seeing my husband's sisters or his brother[s] or his retinue, even my one and only beloved, I trembled and gave them a seat. Tamekavarakampiiti ekavallabhampi. Ubbiggaati tasantaa. Aasana.m demiiti yassa puggalassa ya.m anucchavika.m, ta.m tassa demi. 408. My one and only beloved (eka-varaka.m) means: my one and only beloved (eka-vallabha.m). I trembled means: I shook. I gave [them] a seat means: I gave to each person whatever was suitable. === to be continued, connie #80438 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:53 am Subject: Perfections Corner (63) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 8: The Perfection of Determination. conclusion... If we give things away for the benefit and happiness of someone else but we are forgetful of our defilements, the determination to eradicate them is not yet firm enough. Without the four foundation dhammas, adi.t.thaana dhammas, of truthfulness, relinquishment, calm, and pa~n~naa, we cannot reach the further shore. If a person sees the benefit of steadfastness in relinquishment, caagadi.t.thaana, the elimination of defilements, he also has steadfastness in calm, upasamadi.t.thaana; calm is freedom of defilements. We are absorbed in and disturbed by visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. True calm is freedom from infatuation with the sense objects. We also need to develop the perfection of renunciation, nekkhamma paaramii, in order to reach this freedom. Even someone who is a layfollower may gradually abandon clinging to the sense objects and to the married state. He may be a layfollower who is not married because he sees the disadvantage of the strong bond of family life which is a burden. Thus, seeing the benefit of renunciation conditions steadfastness in calm. When someone is firmly established in the foundation dhamma of calm, it is conditioned by the foundation dhamma of pa~n~naa. Pa~n~naadi.t.thaana is the fourth foundation dhamma. Pa~n~naa can be accumulated by listening to the Dhamma, by considering it and testing its meaning by asking questions. In this way we can verify what is kusala, what is akusala, what is wrong, what is right, and we can understand what kamma is and what its result. When we listen to the Dhamma we can investigate the true nature of realities that are cause and that are result. We should use every opportunity to listen to the Dhamma during this lifespan. Someone may be negligent in listening to the Dhamma, and he may think that by listening once or only a few times, he can be freed from the cycle of birth and death. Then his determination is not yet firm enough. He should further develop the foundation dhamma of pa~n~naa, and in this way the perfection of determination will become accomplished. The perfection of determination is an essential condition for the perfection of pa~n~naa that leads to reaching the further shore, that is, the realization of nibbaana. .. peace, connie #80439 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:58 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the Christmas wishes (I think, at least here, one might start calling it Greedmas) and the reply. I wrote: "I think that the whole Form and Identity of the Meditator, seated in the Traditional Manner, has become the West's Performance Art Piece Par Excellence in Honour of the Buddhist Religion. Rebuttal, please." J: "The image of the Buddhist meditator has been around for thousands of years..." Scott: This, I'm afraid, does not in any way address the concern. It was probably not stated clearly, for which I apologise. I'll rephrase the statement: I think that looking like 'A Buddhist' - and this would be seeing oneself as Sitting in a Posture that, as you point out, has been depicted throughout the Ages - has taken Precedence over actually Knowing What One Is Doing. And furthermore, not knowing what Jhaana really is, has lead to a Pursuit of Really Interesting Experiences which amount to nothing more than a Dry Acid Trip. Rebuttal, please. Sincerely, Scott. #80440 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta special vs. anicca and dukkha (was, Report ...) jonoabb Hi Dieter Dieter Möller wrote: > Jon:I don't think you'll find any such distinction (between anatta and the other 2 characteristics) being made in the texts. > > D: there is a need to develop one's own understanding , Jon.. the texts are only guidelines > from which you are supposed to construct your raft for the other shore > Hmm. Not sure what you're saying here, Dieter. Do you mean that "one's own understanding" may be developed in a way that is not mentioned or explained in the texts? This would seem to leave the door open to anything at all! > Jon:To my understanding, these 3 characteristics are characteristics of dhammas, and an understanding of them is developed only at moments when dhammas are the object of insight development. They can be directly known only to the extent that insight has been developed. > > D: When you say (in another message) '..rather than because of anything that might be called practise , I would say, it is not a matter of looking or observing, such dhammas cannot be seen by looking ' isn't there a contradiction? No contradiction. Because, as I understand it, the moments when dhammas are the object of insight occur (if they occur) not by reason of a practice of looking. I hope this explains the contradiction you thought was there (if not, please elaborate further on what the contradiction is). > Jon : As insight is (gradually) developed then, and only then, the 3 characteristics (gradually) become more apparent. I believe it is explained in the texts that for different people, a different one of the 3 characteristics will be fully penetrated just before or at the moment of full enlightenment, and that all 3 are fully known only by the arahant. But no special mention is made of anatta in this regard, to my knowledge. > > D: yes all three charcteristics of existence fully penetrated by the arahant only .. > Do you see a difference between detachment and anatta ?. I do indeed see a difference between detachment and anatta. To my understanding: - anattaa is a *characteristic* of all dhammas - detachment refers to a moment of kusala consciousness, specifically to the wholesome mental factor (i.e., a *dhamma*) that is panna, since it is panna that conditions detachment from dhammas by virtue of seeing them as they truly are. How do you see anattaa and detachment? Jon #80441 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:49 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 7, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin reminded us that we should not move away from the present moment and that we should abandon desire for sati. She said that it seems that we wish to develop sati, reach the stages of insight and attain enlightenment, all for our own sake. However, the goal of the development of satipatthåna should be understanding of the truth of anattå, thus, the truth that there is no "me". When the first stage of insight knowledge arises, paññå has reached a higher level. At the first stage of insight the difference between nåma and rúpa is realized, but not yet their arising and falling away. As we have seen, there is at that moment no notion of self, no world, only nåma and rúpa. Although there is some result of the development of satipatthåna, paññå has to be developed further. One begins to realize the arising and falling away of realities at the third stage of insight knowledge, and more fully at the fourth stage that is called the first stage of mahå-vipassanå ñåna. In the course of the different stages of insight paññå penetrates more thoroughly the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå, and it realizes the danger and disadvantages of conditioned dhammas, of nåma and rúpa. Paññå sees the unconditioned dhamma, nibbåna, as true peace, as the deliverance from conditioned dhammas. When finally nibbåna is attained, the four noble Truths are penetrated, and the third phase, kata ñåna, which through the successive stages of insight knowledge has gradually been developing, is reached. When the third phase develops, the first and the second phases are not finished or abandoned, they also develop together with it. Thus we see that there are many degrees in each of the three phases of knowledge of the four noble Truths. They are intertwined phases. When the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the "streamwinner", sotåpanna, is attained, the latent tendency of wrong view and of doubt about realities is completely eradicated. However, before enlightenment was attained, the tendencies to wrong view and doubt were gradually being eliminated by the development of insight, otherwise they could not become completely eradicated. After the first stage of enlightenment has been attained, paññå has to develop further to the second, the third and the fourth stage of enlightenment. At the stage of arahatship the task has been completely fulfilled: what had to be understood has been fully penetrated and what had to be abandoned has been completely eradicated. ******* Nina. #80442 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:01 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thanks for the Christmas wishes (I think, at least here, one might > start calling it Greedmas) and the reply. James: You're welcome. I like Christmas in Taiwan because no one buys gifts! :-) > > I think that looking like 'A Buddhist' - and this would be seeing > oneself as Sitting in a Posture that, as you point out, has been > depicted throughout the Ages - has taken Precedence over actually > Knowing What One Is Doing. And furthermore, not knowing what Jhaana > really is, has lead to a Pursuit of Really Interesting Experiences > which amount to nothing more than a Dry Acid Trip. > > Rebuttal, please. James: lol. How could I write a rebuttal to that? You are generalizing about what you perceive about contemporary meditation. Okay, if that's what you think then, whatever. I have nothing to say about that. In this group we discuss the Buddha's teachings- that's it. It doesn't matter if the Buddha's teachings doesn't fit in with your lifestyle, or even if you don't think the Buddha's teaching fits in with anyone's lifestyle. It is just the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha taught jhana and jhana is essential to the Buddha's teaching. Personally, I practice meditation but I don't do it for "fantastic experiences". There aren't really any fantastic experiences for me. It just produces deeper and deeper calm and increased mindfulness. I am more happy, more relaxed, less neurotic when I regularly practice meditation. I don't float around the room or anything! ;-)) Scott, I don't think your concerns are applicable to the members of this group. We study the Buddha's teaching in detail so we would practice meditation in accordance with what he taught. And Scott, if you are really concerned about people meditating in the wrong manner, then you shouldn't try to crush meditation discussion. People can't learn the right way when you try to bully them to drop the subject. Metta, James #80443 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:16 am Subject: Concept & Reality: Another "Look" (Brief) upasaka_howard Hi, all - I was just aware of "myself" seeing, and I realized how different was what I saw from what I think about when I read 'visible object'! When there is the thought of "visible object" or, more generally, of "rupa", what is imagined is a tiny, particulate entity - an "atom" of sorts. But that is not the reality experienced when eyes are open and there is seeing. (And I'm talking of seeing, per se, here - not after-the-fact, mind-door perception of conventional objects.) The difference between what is actually experienced and what we conceptualize is not a subtle one, but an extreme one - radical and dramatic. I believe there is a serious danger in getting "stuck in our head" and missing "the all". The Zen folks are right when they say "Look! Look!" With metta, Howard #80444 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:09 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: James: "You're welcome. I like Christmas in Taiwan because no one buys gifts! :-)" Scott: And no adverts either, I suppose. Hmm. Maybe I should move somewhere without Greedmas. Although the kids wouldn't dig it. James: "lol. How could I write a rebuttal to that? You are generalizing about what you perceive about contemporary meditation. Okay, if that's what you think then, whatever. I have nothing to say about that. In this group we discuss the Buddha's teachings- that's it. It doesn't matter if the Buddha's teachings doesn't fit in with your lifestyle, or even if you don't think the Buddha's teaching fits in with anyone's lifestyle..." Scott: I'm not so sure you guys aren't into this. Weren't you ready with support for Alex by suggesting he looked 'Buddhisty' on his photo (nice word, by the way)? James: "... It is just the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha taught jhana and jhana is essential to the Buddha's teaching." Scott: This is what I mean about the level of discourse when it comes to jhaana. You are just saying that its what the Buddha taught. That's just like Religion, man. One could say, 'Jesus said so' and it would be the same. You're as much as saying the Buddha said so so it is so. Some discussion. How do you know its jhaana? Of what does jhaana consist? How does one recognise these factors? Jhaana practitioners were already active at the time of the Buddha, as far as I know. Therefore he didn't teach jhaana. He Understood jhaana, and it was this Understanding he taught. James: "Personally, I practice meditation but I don't do it for 'fantastic experiences'. There aren't really any fantastic experiences for me. It just produces deeper and deeper calm and increased mindfulness. I am more happy, more relaxed, less neurotic when I regularly practice meditation. I don't float around the room or anything! ;-))" Scott: This latter is a shame. We had a fringe party running for federal elections for a few years awhile back and they were based on some bizarre Transcendentalism and 'Yogic Flying'. I guess that's out for you. They didn't get a single seat either. Go figure. I'm glad you are able to 'feel more happy, more relaxed, less neurotic'. With respect though, this is not an adequate argument to persuade me that you understand or are developing Jhaana. Countless people use mundane relaxation techniques of many forms to achieve these laudable but hardly kusala states you mention. And I don't mean to detract from the experiential satisfaction you derive therefrom. Why are you touting this Form of Relaxation? Secondly, how do you know that it is 'mindfulness'? From past discussion it is my opinion that you don't understand what 'mindfulness' is. Remember the insects and slow-walkers? And of what use is 'deeper and deeper calm' when it comes to the development of kusala leading to enlightenment? In other words, again, what's so special about jhaana? James: "Scott, I don't think your concerns are applicable to the members of this group. We study the Buddha's teaching in detail so we would practice meditation in accordance with what he taught." Scott: Good. Well, speak for yourself anyway, man. Someone show me that you actually know what you are all talking so Excitedly about. And please go beyond, 'the Buddha said so'. James: "And Scott, if you are really concerned about people meditating in the wrong manner, then you shouldn't try to crush meditation discussion. People can't learn the right way when you try to bully them to drop the subject." Scott: Seriously, dude, the melodrama: 'crush meditation discussion'. You Meditators are Totally Uncrushable and you know it. You guys are like the Crusaders, man. You might want to apply some of that Calm to the discussions so you all don't get So Worked Up. I mean, compared to the amount of slagging that the so-called 'DSG Abhidhammikas' take, you guys have nothing to contend with. And you all wail louder if there is any sign of disagreement. None of you are Victims Of Anything. When one fails to discuss a topic adequately then the discussion founders. I've asked to be shown, in terms other than Rhetorical or Declarative, how what you claim to do is anything more than New Age Relaxation and Introspection all dolled-up in Buddhisty language. Sincerely, Scott. #80445 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept & Reality: Another "Look" (Brief) TGrand458@... In a message dated 12/24/2007 10:16:56 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, all - I was just aware of "myself" seeing, and I realized how different was what I saw from what I think about when I read 'visible object'! When there is the thought of "visible object" or, more generally, of "rupa", what is imagined is a tiny, particulate entity - an "atom" of sorts. But that is not the reality experienced when eyes are open and there is seeing. (And I'm talking of seeing, per se, here - not after-the-fact, mind-door perception of conventional objects.) The difference between what is actually experienced and what we conceptualize is not a subtle one, but an extreme one - radical and dramatic. I believe there is a serious danger in getting "stuck in our head" and missing "the all". The Zen folks are right when they say "Look! Look!" With metta, Howard .............................................................................. ........... Hi Howard But an undeveloped baby "just sees." So it seems to me that the that a certain amount of being "stuck in our heads" is doing the work of developing insight so that what is "just seen" is intuitively known as being conditioned, impermanent, non-self, and an affliction if the mind attaches to it. A Zen approach of "look! look!" is fine from an enlightened point of view, but seems to lack an edifying content for the rest of us. I think a balance needs to be struck and an understanding that insight development requires the cogs of conceptualization to grind until bare awareness is cleansed of the three wrong outlooks and replaced with bare awareness of the three right outlooks -- Impermanence, Affliction, Non-self.. Then, look! look! is just fine! fine! That being said, if "we" over conceptualize and hold overreaching theories of what the content of what experience is made up of, then the mind probably does become hopelessly stuck with a head full of theories. I think "common sense" is the buffer that keeps this in balance between going too far and not going far enough...in our conceptualizations and practice in general. Problem is, how do you teach common sense? ;-) TG #80446 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept & Reality: Another "Look" (Brief) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/24/2007 1:29:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: In a message dated 12/24/2007 10:16:56 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, all - I was just aware of "myself" seeing, and I realized how different was what I saw from what I think about when I read 'visible object'! When there is the thought of "visible object" or, more generally, of "rupa", what is imagined is a tiny, particulate entity - an "atom" of sorts. But that is not the reality experienced when eyes are open and there is seeing. (And I'm talking of seeing, per se, here - not after-the-fact, mind-door perception of conventional objects.) The difference between what is actually experienced and what we conceptualize is not a subtle one, but an extreme one - radical and dramatic. I believe there is a serious danger in getting "stuck in our head" and missing "the all". The Zen folks are right when they say "Look! Look!" With metta, Howard .............................................................................. Hi Howard But an undeveloped baby "just sees." So it seems to me that the that a certain amount of being "stuck in our heads" is doing the work of developing insight so that what is "just seen" is intuitively known as being conditioned, impermanent, non-self, and an affliction if the mind attaches to it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: But we are not undeveloped babies, and I'm not suggesting not studying the Buddha's teachings. I'm not saying to not use one's head, but to take care in not getting "stuck in our heads", mistaking the map for the terrain. What I said didn't pertain to learning or not learning the teachings - of course they should be learned and deeply considered. What I was pointing to is the difference between what we conceptually picture when we read 'visible object' and what we actually see when we look. They are so different as to be laughable. Wisdom arises as a true and direct "seeing" of reality resulting from cultivation according to the Dhamma, and not by substituting a shadow world of ideas for reality. --------------------------------------------------------------- A Zen approach of "look! look!" is fine from an enlightened point of view, but seems to lack an edifying content for the rest of us. I think a balance needs to be struck and an understanding that insight development requires the cogs of conceptualization to grind until bare awareness is cleansed of the three wrong outlooks and replaced with bare awareness of the three right outlooks -- Impermanence, Affliction, Non-self.. Then, look! look! is just fine! fine! That being said, if "we" over conceptualize and hold overreaching theories of what the content of what experience is made up of, then the mind probably does become hopelessly stuck with a head full of theories. I think "common sense" is the buffer that keeps this in balance between going too far and not going far enough...in our conceptualizations and practice in general. Problem is, how do you teach common sense? ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think there is "looking" and there is "looking". Reality is there for the seeing provided we "know how" to look. The entirety of the Dhamma, its contemplation and its application, leads to that. ------------------------------------------------------------------ TG =============================== With metta, Howard #80447 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept & Reality: Another "Look" (Brief) nilovg Hi Howard, I appreciate your post about seeing. It is true, we often think about seeing or what is seen, but that is not the actual seeing. It is the Zen 'look,look' that could mislead people. Who is looking Kh Sujin would ask. Thus it is good when we listen and it is, as I like to use the expression, hammered in, that only when awareness and understanding arise (by conditions) will we know what seeing is, what visible object is. We have to listen again and again. Nina. Op 24-dec-2007, om 18:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I was just aware of "myself" seeing, and I realized how different was > what I saw from what I think about when I read 'visible object'! > When there is > the thought of "visible object" or, more generally, of "rupa", what is > imagined is a tiny, particulate entity - an "atom" of sorts. But > that is not the > reality experienced when eyes are open and there is seeing. (And > I'm talking > of seeing, per se, here - not after-the-fact, mind-door perception of > conventional objects.) The difference between what is actually > experienced and what > we conceptualize is not a subtle one, but an extreme one - radical and > dramatic. I believe there is a serious danger in getting "stuck in > our head" and > missing "the all". The Zen folks are right when they say "Look! Look!" #80448 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept & Reality: Another "Look" (Brief) nilovg Hi TG, Op 24-dec-2007, om 19:29 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > Problem > is, how do you teach common sense? ;-) ------- N: Look, look into the Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included. That is common sense, that is realistic, down to earth. Nina. #80449 From: "m. nease" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy m_nease Hi Scott, Nicely put, I thought--and without any name-calling, did you realize? mike Scott Duncan wrote: > I invite you to try to answer the question directly as well: Why the > Idealisation of Jhaana? > > I think that the whole Form and Identity of the Meditator, seated in > the Traditional Manner, has become the West's Performance Art Piece > Par Excellence in Honour of the Buddhist Religion. > > Rebuttal, please. > #80450 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:00 pm Subject: Concept & Reality: Another "Look" (Brief) nichiconn Dear Howard, All, H: When there is the thought of "visible object" or, more generally, of "rupa", what is imagined is a tiny, particulate entity - an "atom" of sorts. But that is not the reality experienced when eyes are open and there is seeing. C: I've been (half) listening to some of the talks on http://www.dhammaweb.net and hearing quite a bit about these "atoms" or the different rupas that compose a kalapa. It seems that some people claim (and are encouraged to expect) to "actually see" these things[, rather much, to my mind, as impossible as the way some speak of seeing some kind of physically discrete citta or cetasika units or whatever it is they must be imagining]. I'm clueless as to what they might actually mean unless we're just dealing with ye olde mass hysterics and wishful thinking. I don't know where these ideas of "atoms" &/or lasting ultimate realities come from. It's not as though one could grab up an object, extract all it's hardness and end up with a handful of anything like a ball of earth element. It just all seems to point to a very basic misunderstanding of what (I think) the abhidhamma texts explain. I'd thought it might have something to do with how people think of "ultimate", but really don't know. Anyway, thanks for mentioning it. Happy mid-winter and best wishes, connie ..purity of mindfulness caused by equanimity. This is called right concentration. (p.139 BoA). #80451 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept & Reality: Another "Look" (Brief) TGrand458@... In a message dated 12/24/2007 12:24:02 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Problem > is, how do you teach common sense? ;-) ------- N: Look, look into the Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included. That is common sense, that is realistic, down to earth. Nina. .............................................. Hi Nina The Buddha and the best of the monks displayed the best common sense. Being that the Abhidhamma is more of a categorization or schemata of states, its hard for me to see common sense displayed in that per se. But I won't argue with it. I was actually going to mention the Buddha and monks in my post to Howard but let it go. Glad you brought it out. TG #80452 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Mike, Thanks for the reply: M: "Nicely put, I thought--and without any name-calling, did you realize?" Scott: Hmm. I think its because I was so Calm ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #80453 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:38 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James and Alex, > > I think you will agree there are two types of Buddhism being > discussed at DSG. One is a religion in which devotees strive to find > eternal peace and happiness in Nibbana. The other is an understanding > of the present reality. There is no difference between these two. Realizing nibbana and understanding the present reality are the same thing. You cannot understand the present reality until the mind is cleared of delusion; and you cannot clear the mind of delusion until you realize nibbana. I don't understand why you think that these two are different. Metta, James #80454 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:51 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, Frankly, I have written many, many, many posts to DSG on the benefits and the necessity of cultivating jhana, and none of them seem to make any difference in the viewpoint of KS followers. Discussion needs to be of some benefit, but I don't feel that this discussion is of any benefit. However, there is on thing I will comment on. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" > I'm glad you are able to 'feel more happy, more relaxed, less > neurotic'. With respect though, this is not an adequate argument to > persuade me that you understand or are developing Jhaana. Countless > people use mundane relaxation techniques of many forms to achieve > these laudable but hardly kusala states you mention. And I don't mean > to detract from the experiential satisfaction you derive therefrom. > Why are you touting this Form of Relaxation? I didn't say that I was practicing jhana; I just said that I was meditating. As you should realize, jhana doesn't come quickly and immediately- it takes some practice. I don't practice that much because I work full time and that makes me tired. However, the small amount of meditation I do does produce calm. You seem derisive of calm but I don't know why that is. Even the Abhidhamma teaches that all kusala states have the characteristic of calm. If you want to live your live as a raving lunatic filled with stress and anxiety, that's your business- but that isn't what the Buddha taught and that isn't beneficial. Meditation, done properly, produces calm and increased kusala mind states so it is beneficial. Metta, James #80455 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:29 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: J: "I didn't say that I was practicing jhana; I just said that I was meditating. As you should realize, jhana doesn't come quickly and immediately- it takes some practice. I don't practice that much because I work full time and that makes me tired. However, the small amount of meditation I do does produce calm." Scott: Well, this is confusing. When you talk of 'meditating', to what do you refer? How is 'meditating' different from 'practicing jhana'? If, as you seem to be saying, 'meditating' is just a common, ordinary, mundane, general form of 'stress' reduction, then why all the hullaballoo? I thought you were speaking of something you say was taught by the Buddha. Are you changing horses in mid-stream? J: "You seem derisive of calm but I don't know why that is. Even the Abhidhamma teaches that all kusala states have the characteristic of calm. If you want to live your live as a raving lunatic filled with stress and anxiety, that's your business- but that isn't what the Buddha taught and that isn't beneficial. Meditation, done properly, produces calm and increased kusala mind states so it is beneficial." Scott: I'm derisive, if this is the term you prefer, of all the imprecision coming out of the Meditator's camp. When asked to specify what it is that this meditation is all about, I'm told that the Buddha taught jhaana, then, that he taught 'meditation'. I am not aware that the Buddha taught this sort of common relaxation technique. I read that jhaana is the natural result, in those with adequate development, of concentration. I read, over the months, of Meditators discussing jhaana, and dismissing Abhidhamma as needless 'book learning', and decrying the fact that momentary jhaana is a part of Path moments, etc., and now you tell me about the 'calm' that accompanies kusala moments, as if this is now an acceptable doctrine. This is extremely imprecise and contradictory. What exactly is your Stand? Sincerely, Scott. #80456 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:06 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Scott: Well, this is confusing. When you talk of 'meditating', to > what do you refer? How is 'meditating' different from 'practicing > jhana'? If, as you seem to be saying, 'meditating' is just a common, > ordinary, mundane, general form of 'stress' reduction, then why all > the hullaballoo? I thought you were speaking of something you say was > taught by the Buddha. Are you changing horses in mid-stream? Do a google search on "buddhist meditation" and then do a google search on "jhana" and read all about them and educate yourself. Also do a google search on "40 meditation subjects" and read about what is taught in the Path of Purification by Buddhaghosa. Then try some for yourself and see what happens. I can't discuss this subject with someone who keeps flying off the handle and has already made up his mind without the proper informational background. Metta and Merry Christmas! James #80457 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:32 am Subject: For Sarah and Alex RE/ "Absorption Concentration" vs Buddhas wise Janic ecstasy. reverendagga... Hi Sarah and Alex... and everybody! This is reverend aggacitto checking in. The exchange between the 2 of you makes it apparent 2 ANYBODY that has ever actually experienced Jhana access that neither of you have! This reminds me of how people who usually have never had any REAL money will talk about how "money cant buy you happiness!" in order to make themselves feel better about never really having had mutch to talk of in the first place!(of course money will buy happiness,just dont confuse that with something called peace of mind!). "you cant really have insight in a blind,deaf,cognitionless trance" Where do you get this idea?That this should describe Jhana? The descriptions of the rupa and arupa jhana should tell one more than that! Even the 7th of jhana (3rd arupa)sphere of nothingness has to be perceived.i assure the both of you that if you work at it,(most dont have the disipline and adopt such views instead)when you are viewing your nimitta it will be the most "insightful" experience of your lives! HOMEWORK QUESTION!... What does the word Jhana mean? May the Buddha's, Deva and Angel's bless ALL of you! bhikkhu aggacitto/aka reverend aggacitto #80458 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ideation nilovg Hi Larry and Robert A, Op 22-dec-2007, om 21:30 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > The preliminary understanding is very similar to naming things but it is more a matter of recognition. This is the discrimination of nama and rupa, the purification of view, a glimpse of anatta. > The "re" in "recognition" often references something that has > been studied and contemplated. ------- N: And this is the condition for direct awareness and understanding. Firm remembrance is mentioned as a proximate cause for sati. It is well remembered what was heard and studied before, over and over again. -------- > > L: Lucidity without ideation could well arise from "transcendent > understanding" but this isn't > the understanding of insight which is, in a sense, obvious and > ordinary-- ------- N: Ordinary, because it has as object seeing now, visible object appearing now, all dhammas appearing at this moment that we so often discussed and considered. ------ > L: but also rare. We > might say insight is penetrating analytical understanding. The > "penetrating" part causes > one to let go of something. ------- N: It penetrates the true nature of non-self of realities, thus, there is relinquishment of the wrong view of self. ------- > > L: As for intentionality, you can practice falling off a cliff but > you don't really get it until you > accidentally fall off a cliff. You can't intentionally let go of > intention, which we often > identify as me or mine. ------- N: It is the function of pa~n~naa to lead to detachment from the idea of my intention, and from all realities we take for self at this moment. Sati and pa~n~naa arise because of their own condiitons, and we cannot plan anything. When the time is right they arise unexpectantly. Nina. #80459 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concept & Reality: Another "Look" (Brief) nilovg Hi TG, No, I won't argue either, so much has been written about the Abhidhamma. I just want to add a few words and give an example. Op 24-dec-2007, om 22:13 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha and the best of the monks displayed the best common > sense. Being > that the Abhidhamma is more of a categorization or schemata of > states, its > hard for me to see common sense displayed in that per se. But I > won't argue > with it. ---------- N: you wrote: . The first words of the Matika, the table of contents of the Dhammasangani: kusala dhammas, akusala dhammas, avyaakata dhammas (indeterminate: neither kusala nor akusala, including vipaaka cittas which are results and kiriyacittas, inoperative cittas). This is a short statement but very meaningful. It is meant for contemplation and practice, that is, verification in daily life. All these short categorizations are meant for practice. Seeing is vipaakacitta, it is result of kamma. Our reactions to what is seen is either kusala or akusala. We have to know the difference between vipaaka, kusala and akusala. Otherwise we mislead ourselves our whole life. We take for kusala what is in fact attachment. We may wish for attainment of stages of insight and enlightenment in the future, but this is clinging again. To know kusala dhammas, akusala dhammas, avyaakata dhammas, this is a program for life. It sure will cause us to be down to earth. It is the best common sense not to hanker after the past nor wish for the future that has not come yet , but to understand the present moment. The Buddha and the monks in his time who understood satipatthana displayed the best common sense. And this is my wis to you, TG, and to all, Nina. #80460 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:49 am Subject: Perfection Corner nichiconn Dear Friends, We will begin ch.9 in a few days. peace, connie #80461 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:49 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (72) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 13 15. Cattaaliisanipaato 1. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 411. "Annena ca paanena ca, khajjena ca ya~nca tattha sannihita.m; chaademi upanayaami ca, demi ca ya.m yassa patiruupa.m. 412. "Kaalena upa.t.thahitvaa, ghara.m samupagamaami ummaare; dhovantii hatthpaade, pa~njalikaa saamikamupemi. 409. I gratified them with food and drink and hard food and whatever was stored there. I brought it forth and gave what was fitting to each. 410. Arising in good time, I approached my lord's house. Having washed my hands and feet at the threshold, I approached my husband with cupped hands. Tatthaati parivesana.t.thaane. Sannihitanti sajjita.m hutvaa vijjamaana.m. Chaademiiti upacchaademi, upacchaadetvaa upanayaami ca, upanetvaa demi, dentiipi ya.m yassa patiruupa.m, tadeva demiiti attho. 409. There means: the place for the distribution of food. Stored means: remaining there after having been prepared. I gratified (chaademi) means: I pleased (upacchaademi). Having pleased them, I brought it forth, and having brought it forth, I gave it. Then giving it, I gave what was fitting to each, just that. That is the meaning. Ummaareti dvaare. Dhovantii hatthapaadeti hatthapaade dhovinii aasi.m, dhovitvaa ghara.m samupagamaamiiti yojanaa. 410. At the threshold means: at the door. Having washed (dhovantii) my hands and feet means: I was washing (dhovinii aasi.m) my hands and feet. Having washed, I approached the house; that is the implication. 413. "Koccha.m pasaada.m a~njani~nca, aadaasaka~nca ga.nhitvaa; parikammakaarikaa viya, sayameva pati.m vibhuusemi. 414. "Sayameva odana.m saadhayaami, sayameva bhaajana.m dhovantii; maataava ekaputtaka.m, tathaa bhattaara.m paricaraami. 411. Taking a comb, decorations, a box for ointment, and a mirror, I myself adorned my husband like a servant girl [would]. 412. I myself prepared the boiled rice. I myself washed the bowl. I looked after my husband as a mother [would look after] her only son. Kocchanti massuuna.m kesaana~nca ullikhanakoccha.m. Pasaadanti gandhacu.n.naadimukhavilepana.m. "Pasaadhanan"tipi paa.tho, pasaadhanabha.n.da.m. A~njaninti a~njananaa.li.m. Parikammakaarikaa viyaati aggakulikaa vibhavasampannaapi patiparicaarikaa ce.tikaa viya. 411. A comb means: a dressing comb for beards and hari. Decorations (pasaada.m), means: ointment for the face and scented powder. There is also the reading pasaadhana.m (decorations), goods for decorating (pasaadhana-bha.n.da.m). A box for ointment (a~njani.m) means: box for ointment (a~njana-naa.li.m). Like a servant girl (parikamma-kaarikaa) means: although I was from a prominent family and wealthy, I was like a handmaiden (patiparicaarikaa), a woman servant (ce.tikaa). Saadhayaamiiti pacaami. Bhaajananti lohabhaajana~nca. Dhovantii paricaraamiiti yojanaa. 412. I prepared means: I cooked. The bowl (bhaajana.m) means: a copper bowl (lobha-bhaajana.m). I washed, I looked after, that is the implication. === to be continued, connie #80462 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation avalo1968 Hello Nina and others, Some comments on one of your posts: N: If we do not know anything about the realities that can be objects of awareness, we shall get lost. We need to know that the object of awareness can be: any dhamma appearing now through one of the six doorways. We need to know that they are not concepts of a whole such as a table or a person. ------ R: Here we agree that we must be able to see beyond the concepts. ------------------------------------------------- N:As intellectual understanding grows there will be conditions for direct awareness of one dhamma at a time. ------- R: I don't think that is a given. Take for example a university professor who is a scholar of Theravada Buddhism, but does not put any of it into practice. He may know every word of the Pali Canon, but as his intellectual understanding grows, will there be conditions for sati? I believe there has to be something else besides intellectual understanding. Do you agree, and if you do, what do you think it is? ------------------------------------------------- N: Kh. Sujin repeats many times: everything is dhamma. We may repeat these words, but do we really understand this: whatever appears is a conditioned dhamma. Nobody created it, directed it, made it appear. I liked her example: there is seeing at this moment, it has already arisen, nobody creates this. And this goes also for sati. Nobody can create it. When people speak about insight as an experience beyond words it sounds like a very special experience. But the teachings are very much down to earth. The dhammas that are objects of sati are exactly the same as seeing now, hearing now, hardness now, only gradually there will be more understanding of them. I quote again from my post today: < Thus, there are different levels of paññå: intellectual understanding based on listening to the Dhamma, and paññå accompanied by sati that is directly aware of the characteristics of realities appearing now through one of the six doorways. These are the dhammas we studied and considered before, but now they can gradually be verified and directly understood. Knowing the difference between the moment there is no sati but only thinking about nåma and rúpa, and the moment there is awareness of one characteristic of nåma or rúpa at a time is the beginning of the development of satipatthåna. Gradually we shall realize nåma as nåma, and rúpa as rúpa, we shall realize their different characteristics.> The objects of sati and pa~n~naa are nothing else but the dhammas we studied and considered before. --------------- R: The question is - what is the difference between the moment of thinking about nåma and rúpa, and the moment there is awareness of one characteristic of nåma or rúpa at a time? One possible answer is the presence of greed, hatred, and delusion or the absence of these things. This is where the idea comes up that states of deep concentration provide a moment of lucidity - because in deep states of concentration the five hindrances are not there. But then we have the question, does concentration lead to the temporary quieting of the five hindrances or does the temporary quieting of the five hindrances lead to the arising of concentration? Sorry I have only questions and no answers. Thank you, Robert A. #80463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:42 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 7, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin stressed the importance of the three phases because they make it apparent that sati and paññå of satipatthåna can only arise when there are the right conditions, a firm foundation knowledge of what the objects of satipatthåna are and of the way of its development, that is, the development of right understanding of dhamma appearing now. The three phases make it clear that the development of satipatthåna is very gradual and they remind us of the importance of the goal of the development of understanding: detachment from the clinging to self and the abandonment of all defilements. In the following sutta we are reminded that ignorance and wrong view give rise to all kinds of akusala, whereas right understanding leads to freedom from all defilements. The "streamwinner", sotåpanna, who has attained the first stage of enlightenment, has eradicated wrong view and he cannot deviate from the right Path. He has no more conditions to commit evil deeds leading to an unhappy rebirth. We read in the "Gradual Sayings" (Book of the Tens, Ch XI, § 5, By knowledge): Monks, when ignorance leads the way, by the reaching of states unprofitable, shamelessness and recklessness follow in its train. In one who is swayed by ignorance and is void of sense, wrong view springs up. Wrong view gives rise to wrong thinking, wrong thinking to wrong speech, wrong speech to wrong action, wrong action to wrong livelihood, wrong livelihood to wrong effort, wrong effort to wrong mindfulness, wrong mindfulness to wrong concentration, that to wrong knowledge, and that to wrong release. But, monks, when knowledge leads the way, by the attainment of profitable states, the sense of shame and self-restraint follow in its train. In one who is swayed by knowledge and has good sense, right view springs up. Right view gives rise to right thinking... right concentration gives rise to right knowledge, and that to right release. ****** Nina. #80464 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation nilovg Dear Robert A, Op 25-dec-2007, om 17:24 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > Sorry I have only questions and no answers. ------- N: Excellent questions. I find them helpful, good to ponder over. Now it is my turn to take time for this. Nina. #80465 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:33 am Subject: RE: [dsg] From Two Suttas: The Imperturbable Nature of an Arahant dacostacharles Thanks, I tend to forget stuff like this, this important goal, this way of being (in the mind) - unchanging (permanent), no suffering, no craving and no clinging; unconditioned because it just is. Today, I received a message from one of my most important teachers. He said, "It is time to be happy, all our problems, all our ., are all relative." I also understood the meaning behind the unsaid: "Our problems will arise, fade, and cease, only to arise again and repeat the cycle in one form or another, again and again - as long as we remain attached to them." From your post and my teacher's message, I gather: If there must be clinging / desire, direct (discipline) it to: unconditional happiness - a state of mind, not a state of things, nor is it relative. This is the third step. Charles DaCosta > SN 21.2 Upatissa Sutta About Upatissa (Sariputta) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: S ii 274 CDB i 714 <...> #80466 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:49 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Sutta vs Abhidhamma dacostacharles Hi Alex, I understand your concern, however, it is almost impossible to separate the Buddha's teachings (what he actually said and meant) from the other related teachings and explanations. Lots of people gained some degree of enlightenment and their learning became documented also. Most of this other information is believed to have been inspired by the Buddha's teachings in one form or another. Some people even believe the Buddha (who had died before their time) had talked to them and told them what to say, giving them new and improved teachings. So, just because the information is not directly from the Buddha does not mean you can not benefit from it. What I would say is put it to the test - practice it and see! I believe the Buddha had not expected people to be comparing and contrasting every thing he said, because he expected us to practice the things he said, and by practice, evaluate whether or not a teaching works. I say this because the Buddha emphasized practice, over scholastic study. And, I believe the Buddha's teachings evolved over his life, and that the teachings were targeted to different situations. So if you ignore this and just look at the pure teachings, you are bound to find places where they conflict. This can cause doubt. If the Buddha DHAMMA IS THE BEST it will do its job when you come across it. You will not loose that benefit, as long as you focus on practice, and not getting caught up in comparing a contrasting it all. You must examine the teachings by practice, not so much by scholastic study, and then you'll know them better. If you spend all your time trying to isolate what you think is true, you will find your-self with a lot of knowledge, maybe even some wisdom, but it will last until someone else comes along and proves your interpretations and rejections (e.g. the Abidharma) wrong. I don't know if anybody became enlightened by studying and practicing the Abidharma alone. It is not something people brag about. But yes, You already know the Buddha's real teachings: the 4 noble truths, the 8 fold path, and the middle way. Why hasn't this knowledge brought you to enlightenment? I do not remember the parable of being shot with an Arrow; however, if it were enough, I would think he would have used it to teach all of his sermons. Charles DaCosta _____ However, I have to ask: is it really important how valid or canonical the Abhidamma is in comparison to the Suttras? ><>>> It is VERY important. Buddha DHAMMA IS THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It should NEVER be diluted. I hope that you understand that it is in the best interest of ALL that Liberating Buddha Dhamma remains. <....> #80467 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:46 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,222 Vism.XVII,223 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 222. But as to the sixfold base that is a condition for this thirty-twofold contact: herein: Some wise men take the sixfold base To be the five internal bases With the sixth; but others count These plus the six external bases. 223. Herein, firstly, there are those who take this to be an exposition of the occurrence of what is clung to, [that is, kammically-acquired aggregates,] and they maintain that the conditioning [bases] and the conditionally-arisen [contact] are only what is included in one's own continuity. They take any one part to represent any remaining one of its kind, since the condition for contact in the immaterial states is the sixth base [only], according to the text 'With the sixth base as condition, contact' (Vbh.179), and elsewhere it is the sixfold base inclusively. So they have it that 'sixfold base' means the internal [five] beginning with the eye plus the sixth (mind) base. For that sixth base and that sixfold base are styled 'sixfold base'. But there are those who maintain that it is only the conditionally-arisen [contact] that is contained in a single continuity, while the conditioning [bases] are contained in separate [that is,past] continuities as well. They maintain that all and any such bases are a condition for contact, and they include also the [six] external ones. So they have it that 'sixfold base' means the same internal [five] plus the sixth plus the external ones beginning with visible data.For that sixth base and that [partial] sixfold base and the sixfold base along with these [external ones] each representing the rest are styled sixfold base too. *********************** 222. ya.m panetassa dvatti.msavidhassaapi phassassa paccayo sa.laayatana.m, tattha, cha.t.thena saha ajjhatta.m, cakkhaadi.m baahirehipi. sa.laayatanamicchanti, chahi saddhi.m vicakkha.naa.. 223. tattha ye taava ``upaadi.n.nakapavattikathaa aya´´nti sakasantatipariyaapannameva paccaya.m paccayuppanna~nca diipenti, te ``cha.t.thaayatanapaccayaa phasso´´ti (vibha0 322) paa.lianusaarato aaruppe cha.t.thaayatana~nca, a~n~nattha sabbasa"ngahato sa.laayatana~nca phassassa paccayoti ekadesasaruupekasesa.m katvaa cha.t.thena saha ajjhatta.m cakkhaadi.m sa.laayatananti icchanti. ta~nhi cha.t.thaayatana~nca sa.laayatana~nca sa.laayatanantveva sa"nkha.m gacchati. ye pana paccayuppannameva ekasantatipariyaapanna.m diipenti, paccaya.m pana bhinnasantaanampi, te ya.m ya.m aayatana.m phassassa paccayo hoti, ta.m sabbampi diipentaa baahirampi pariggahetvaa tadeva cha.t.thena saha ajjhatta.m baahirehipi ruupaayatanaadiihi saddhi.m sa.laayatananti icchanti. tampi hi cha.t.thaayatana~nca sa.laayatana~nca sa.laayatananti etesa.m ekasese kate sa.laayatanantveva sa"nkha.m gacchati. #80468 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:54 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,222 Vism.XVII,223 nichiconn Path of Purity pp.678-679 Of these thirty-two kinds of contact, sixfold sense is the cause, wherein The wise desire the sixfold sense to mean, Internal eye and so on with the sixth, And also these with the external six. Those who, thinking that this is a discourse on procedure of derived things, set forth the cause and result included in their own continuity, following the text, "Conditioned by the sixth sense, contact comes to pass," leave out the corresponding parts, seeing that the cause of contact is the sixth sense of the formless as well as the sixfold sense which comprises all senses from elsewhere, and desire the sixfold sense to be the internal eye and so on, together with the sixth sense. And that as well as the sixth sense, as well as the sixfold sense goes under {read tveva for sveva} the name of sixfold sense. But those, who set forth the result, as being included in one continuity, and the cause as belonging to a different continuity, also set forth every sense that is the cause of contact, thereby including the external sense, and desire that internal sense, together with the sixth, to be the sixfold sense together with the external senses of matter and so on. [566] That also as well as the sixth sense and the sixfold sense, as well as the sixfold sense goes under the name of sixfold sense, the corresponding parts being left out. #80469 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. corvus121 Hello DC Thanks for another detailed and interesting post. If I may just make a few interspersed comments/questions below? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > The word saddhaa is derived from the root dhaa with the prefix sa.n; dhaa means to hold, keep, etc. Saddhaa therefore means to keep hold etc of the practices that you learn from your parents, teachers etc. It is not a term that has anything to do with knowledge. As far as Dhamma is concerned all of us are endowed with delusion or moha. We don't have knowledge [Buddhist knowledge]. There are three varieties of saddhaa according to the canon. Amuulikaa saddhaa-- rootless, baseless, or foundationless saddhaa, saddhaa, and aakaaravatii saddhaa--aakaaravatii saddhaa is a diificult word to translate. Jayatilleke translates it as rational faith. This is WRONG. From the context in which it appears, for example viimamsaka sutta of MN, it is the state of the stream-enterer, an ariyan state. So we can't discuss it because we don't know what it is. The word aakaara means--the manner of doing something or a method; aakaaravantu means endowed with the manner of doing > something; in this case, it refers to the ariyan path. Amuulikaa saddhaa is what most of us have; here we blindly follow the tradition. When we have saddhaa we accept the dhamma after listening to it and accept it because it is reasonable; then we follow it. Andrew: So the basis of accepting it is because it is reasonable (and not just that it was taught me by my elders/teachers)? Can we say that assessing something as reasonable implies a degree of knowledge about that something? If I accept the Dhamma as reasonable and follow it on some occasions but not on others, does amuulikaa saddhaa exist at all or only on the occasions when the Dhamma was followed? You implied that saddhaa could exist when the Dhamma was not being followed simply out of habit (rather than intentionally). This is interesting and seems to be consistent with the commentarial story of the arahant who used demeaning caste language out of habit without any intention to offend. As an arahant, he would have been firmly established in saddha all the while!! DC: In the teaching of the Buddha understanding (mundane) has nothing to do with the mind or mental states. Andrew: I am finding this comment hard to reconcile with the first verse of the Dhammapada: manopubbangamaa dhammaa manosetthaa manomayaa. DC: Very simple, I don't know another's mind; please reflect on this; is there any way in which we can find out whether a person is lying or not. (or mad; we never judge a person to be mad by looking at his mind; we look at his behaviour) So the Buddha's criterion is: if your actions corresponds to your words, then you know and understand. You don't understand that killing is bad, if you intentionally kill even a mosquito. Same with lying and so on. When you understand it you will not kill under any circumstances. Here is an explanation of the word, tathaagata: "yathaavaadii tathaakaarii, tathaavaadii yathaakaarii" "Do what you say, say what you do". Andrew: I see that the above is very consistent with "right understanding comes first". If I accept that it is akusala to use offensive speech, but I continue to use offensive speech purely out of habit (with no conscious intention to do so), can I be said to understand that offensive speech is akusala? On another issue, I cannot know the mind of another but can I know my own mind? Do I know my own mind only through observing my speech and actions? Best wishes Andrew #80470 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:24 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy kenhowardau Hi James, ----- KH: > > I think you will agree there are two types of Buddhism being > > discussed at DSG. One is a religion in which devotees strive to find > > eternal peace and happiness in Nibbana. The other is an understanding > > of the present reality. J: > There is no difference between these two. Realizing nibbana and > understanding the present reality are the same thing. You cannot > understand the present reality until the mind is cleared of delusion; > and you cannot clear the mind of delusion until you realize nibbana. > > I don't understand why you think that these two are different. > ---------- I understand the present reality well enough to know that it is devoid of self. There is no entity that will persist from the present, unenlightened, state to a future, enlightened, state. With that understanding, I cannot possibly be interested in "trying" or "striving" for enlightenment, can I? It wouldn't make sense. In other words, conventional ideas of trying and striving for enlightenment (formal meditation) would be completely incompatible with my understanding of the present reality. And I can't pretend otherwise - not even for the sake of polite conversation. Ken H #80471 From: "colette" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] From Two Suttas: The Imperturbable Nature of an Arahant ksheri3 Hi Charles, Happy Holidays to you and all others! I've had a splendid holiday, alone, banned from being with others upstairs and from partaking of the holiday by their own words, orders, to me as a paying tenant since I practice esoteric beliefs et al. Forgetfulness, a condition of mind, no? Stuff? Stuff you say? That deserves a chuckle or even a chortle. Thank you for extending a smile. Important goal? Hmmmmm? Important or importance, hmmmmmmm? Goal or objective, hmmmmm? Being? Ahhhhhh, now I've found that focus. ISN'T BEING nothing but a concept? I congratulate you on specifying your application of "being" since you did say: "...being (in the mind)...". This forces me into the corner of asking the questions: Being? In Who's mind is the being taking place? What is the mind manifesting as "being"? Where is the mind manifesting this condition of "being"?, et al. Lets take a hypothesis: The mind of an individual. This mind manifests a condition of being. This same mind manifests the condition of anything which is to be and THEN PROJECTS that condition outward, outside of itself, EXTERNAL. Is the projection tangible? That which is now EXTERNAL was manifested and constituted INTERNALLY before ever having a chance to experience an EXTERNAL condition. What is tangible about the projection? I'm trying to get to those hillarious jokes just sitting there waiting to be accessed in the form of your terminology: "stuff". You know what I'm getting at don't you? Some people just love herds of sheep, and C.G.Jung was first to describe the Herd Instinct in individuals. <...>I could have so much fun with the generosity which you've graciously extended to us today. THANK YOU. Alas, you raise the specifications which I've been challenging people with these past few weeks: Svabhava, suffering, craving, desire, et al. These challenges eventually came back to me by a friend, a beginner in Buddhist studies, somehow, suggesting to me that I may be filled with a bodhisattva. Then, in another forum, I was reminded to " "remember the vows of a bodhisattva". THUS, we have a tempering process of my machevellian character and playfulness. It is standard procedure for your favorite teacher to be reminding you of the cyclical nature of these events: "problems". It's a sign of compassion that we, in our state of ignorance, remind eachother of this state or cyclical nature of "SUFFERING" and so always remain vigilant and observant, Mindful. Thanks for the reminders. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Thanks, I tend to forget stuff like this, this important goal, this way of > being (in the mind) - unchanging (permanent), no suffering, no craving and > no clinging; unconditioned because it just is. <....> #80472 From: "colette" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta vs Abhidhamma, I gotta play this one. ksheri3 Hello again Charles, Ouch, you apply some highly skillful means or is it that you and Alex are, how can I say this, "in bed together" thus making the skillfull means a team effort? Seeking a third party, possibly? Menage a Trois? ROFL. > I understand your concern, however, it is almost impossible to separate the > Buddha's teachings (what he actually said and meant) colette: how is it possible for us, in our day and time period, to actually know what the Buddha actually said and meant or were they implications, or were they...? REMEMBER, the First Turning of the Wheel was marked by DISCRIMINATION AND BIAS: WHO WAS ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN CREATING THE DOCTRINE. EXCLUSION WAS THE KARMA CREATING ACTION OF THE DAY. Now, take your Abhidharma and apply it's teachings to those INTERNAL and those EXTERNAL as to their interpretations of the doctrine. ---------------------------------------------- from the other related > teachings and explanations. Lots of people gained some degree of > enlightenment and their learning became documented also. Most of this other > information is believed to have been inspired by the Buddha's teachings in > one form or another. Some people even believe the Buddha (who had died > before their time) had talked to them and told them what to say, giving them > new and improved teachings. So, just because the information is not directly > from the Buddha does not mean you can not benefit from it. What I would say > is put it to the test - practice it and see! > colette: as the wise Jimi Hendrix once said before he died by the hands of his own puke: "ARe you experienced". You gave good advice with "practice practice practice". -------------------------------------- > > > I believe the Buddha had not expected people to be comparing and contrasting > every thing he said, because he expected us to practice the things he said, > and by practice, evaluate whether or not a teaching works. I say this > because the Buddha emphasized practice, over scholastic study. And, I > believe the Buddha's teachings evolved over his life, and that the teachings > were targeted to different situations. So if you ignore this and just look > at the pure teachings, you are bound to find places where they conflict. > This can cause doubt. > colette: and what does doubt manifest? --------------------------------------- > > > If the Buddha DHAMMA IS THE BEST it will do its job when you come across it. > You will not loose that benefit, as long as you focus on practice, and not > getting caught up in comparing a contrasting it all. You must examine the > teachings by practice, not so much by scholastic study, and then you'll know > them better. ******************************************** colette: Charles, are you a consultant in Micro-Management? I like this below: If you spend all your time trying to isolate what you think is > true, you will find your-self with a lot of knowledge, maybe even some > wisdom, but it will last until someone else comes along and proves your > interpretations and rejections (e.g. the Abidharma) wrong. > colette: can't we say this is the "road to ruin" which the middle- class or micro-managers are on today and that is the road that they, how can I say this, "sold their souls" for? This leads us to the Western psychology of Dualism where a condition required for life to be created and exist in is that of DEATH. Ah, our good friend Yama holding the Wheel of Life, no? I'm getting at the suicidal tendencies of Western theologies that stake their claim to fame on the pre- meditated murder of a single person, a supposed christ, when they fail to prove the existance of their supposed creator god or diety. ------------------------------------------------- > > You already know the Buddha's real teachings: the 4 noble truths, the 8 fold > path, and the middle way. Why hasn't this knowledge brought you to > enlightenment? > colette: this is the exact paragraph that sparked my reply here tonight. Specifically: "...brought you to enlightenment" GREAT GAD ZOOKS, or is it "HEAVENS TO MERGATROID" or maybe even Frank Zappa's "Great Googli-Mooogli" (see "The Yellow Snow")! Lets Deconstruct this shall we? Brought? Implication: it already exists, is tangible, and is carried or transfered, in some way from a place to another place. WHAT HAPPENED TO SVABHAVA? "You", holy sh*t, now you've gone and made a person. Playing god are we? lol This is the winner: "enlightenment". Haaaa? I won't play the Moon Unit version of Valley Girl here (Moon Unit is one of Frank Zappa's two children), but I'm sure you understand that nasal condescending sound they all make. Since you're portraying a "creator diety or god" then you might as well show us a thing or two by defining WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING CALLED "ENGLIGHTENMENT"? I feel like Commander McHale on McHale's Navy. Gotta go. Thank you so much! toodles, colette #80473 From: "colette" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:43 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,222 Vism.XVII,223 ksheri3 Good Evening Connie, WOW, did you send me for a loop there, or here, no, maybe it's "BELOW", unfortunately Robin Trower doesn't come with many lyrics when applying the "Below" term. Are you sure you're not from Chicago cause I was sayin' to myself, as I read that piece below, "sister, you got somethin' goin' on" which led me to Bad Co.'s song "SWEET LIL'SISTER". Then again it may just be my "experience" with Seattle and Tacoma through The National Leather Assoc. etc. SERIOUSLY, I don't know where to pick a word to start with in my typical analysis. You have a fixation and grasp of the 6 Senses and the 6 Sense Doors and the 6.... Here I mean this in the spirit that "you certainly are spinning the 6...". THAT, is an adorable quality. Uhhhhh-no, not me, I've tried watching those spinning wheels and those spinning tables, in my youth so you ain't get me to play that one. I LUV HOW YOU ACTUALLY THINK I'M WILLING AND WORTHY ENOUGH TO WALK INTO ONE OF THOSE NO-WIN BOOBY-TRAPS. THANK YOU. "The traffic lights turn blue, tomorrow". Jimi Hendrix toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > > Path of Purity pp.678-679 > > Of these thirty-two kinds of contact, sixfold sense is the cause, wherein > The wise desire the sixfold sense to mean, > Internal eye and so on with the sixth, > And also these with the external six. <....> #80474 From: "colette" Date: Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:07 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy ksheri3 Hi Ken H., With the string I've had earlier tonight I might as well keep it going while the electromagnetic current still exists. It's winding down, losing it's power, as people begin to fall asleep and begin to change their thoughts and focuses. > ----- > KH: > > I think you will agree there are two types of Buddhism being > > > discussed at DSG. One is a religion in which devotees strive to > find > > > eternal peace and happiness in Nibbana. The other is an > understanding > > > of the present reality. > colette: eventhough I am not James I will agree with this observation. Interesting how you focused to see this. Maybe it's your proximity and your motivation to the DSG group/forum which allowed you to see such an obvious, blatant, characteristic. Your first part, concerning the motivation of achieving an "eternal peace and happiness", while it could possibly be through the achievement of Nibbana I immediately ponder the potential for this actual purpose of studying Buddhism as one of the delusions that converts or new devotees were always faced with WHICH IS WHY the Buddha made it clear that the Dharma or Dhamma was/is empty, sunya, and therefore should not be clung to. the part concerning "the understanding of a present reality" I feel may be construed as being "making common sense out of a widl world (see Cat Stevens) or a crazy world or a mad, mad, mad, mad, mad, world (see the movie). ----------------------------------------------- > > J: > There is no difference between these two. Realizing nibbana and > > understanding the present reality are the same thing. colette: NOPE, I disagree. I see Nibbana as a condition in which the present reality is to be placed once the state of Nibbana has been achieved. Consider a petri dish where fungi and diseases are grown and nurtured. the mind is a sort of petri dish. This petri dish, labeled (see Name & Form) as mind can grow and nurture many different delusions or diseases. Nibbana is a very particular fungi, or delusion, or even a disease. IF this is the case, that the state of consciousness called Nibbana, is to be viewed as a petri dish where other consciousnesses are grown, developed, THEN, can't we also allow for the Name of "lenses" to be applied to Nibbana since I'm speaking of "ways to view the world", in this case, potentially, as Ken Howard was suggesting. For instance Ken H. suggested that neophytes tend toward finding "eternal peace and happiness through Nibbana" which may be like wearring "rose colored glasses" of viewing the world as if the song Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds by the Beatles was how certain people viewed the world in which they existed. People are so shallow and superficial that they skim over things BECAUSE they CLING AND DESIRE other wrong things thus they miss the achievement of Nibbana or they misinterpret the state of consciouness called, Named, Nibbana. ------------------------------------------ You cannot > > understand the present reality until the mind is cleared of > delusion; colette: that's a loaded statement. EACH and EVERY INDIVIDUAL MIND has its' own understanding of what it perceives through the sense consciousnesses. EACH and EVERY INDIVIDUAL MIND has its' own conception of what is and is not DELUSION or DELUSIONARY. We can go to the American DSM or whatever the "head shrinkers" use for a standard status quo definition of delusion but it's a known fact that the Abhidharma and science of psychiatry DO NOT MIX nor do they BOTH WALK HAND IN HAND. They may have "tangents", points where their individual analysis agree with eachother but they are in no way in the same league. The standard western psychiatric profession is nothing more than a distribution point for drug cartels (see "drug dealers" in your gang manuals or wikipedia, maybe) and therefore takes itself out of the ballpark that the Abhidharma chose to play in. You and I do agree that "delusions" are the cause of WRONG VIEW in the sense of achieving Nibbana. ----------------------------------- > > and you cannot clear the mind of delusion colette: wow, I don't have the word processing capabilities to bring up Ken H.'s comments on "meditation" at this point but I will say that meditation is totally focused on removing delusions, placing the mind in different yogas, and only the single individual can do this for themselves. Clearing the mind of delusions, as you speak of it here, is far greater than clearing the air of smog. Delusions ARE OBSCURATIONS but these obscurations and wrong views are only made by the individual that has them they are not manufactured outside the individual vessel or petri dish or mind. EACH INDIVIDUAL CAN, HAS THE ABILITY TO, CHANGE THE WORLD, CHANGE THE REALITY, CHANGE THE MOLECULAR STRUCTURE OF THE REALITY. <....> I've gotta go. thank you for the discussion. toodles, colette <....> > In other words, conventional ideas of trying and striving for > enlightenment (formal meditation) would be completely incompatible > with my understanding of the present reality. And I can't pretend > otherwise - not even for the sake of polite conversation. > > Ken H > #80475 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (*James) --- upasaka@... wrote: >S: "- suffering due to pain (dukkhadukkhataa) is painful bodily and > mental suffering; > - suffering due to formations (sa.nkhaaradukkhataa) is all > conditioned phenomena of the three planes, because they are oppressed > by rise and fall; > - suffering due to change (viparinaamadukkhataa) is pleasant > feeling, which brings suffering when it comes to an end." > ============================= > Sarah, in your opinion, why is not the 3rd an instance of the 2nd, > specifically of dukkha due to falling/cessation? .... S: I tend to think that the second (sa.nkhaaradukkhataa) does include the first and last. It includes all conditioned dhammas, inc. unpleasant and pleasant feelings. This is why it is the all-embracing, deepest sense of dukkha. Those who have not heard the Buddha's teachings know a lot about unpleasant feelings, about physical and mental suffering. People also can appreciate that what is pleasant, like a beautiful flower, doesn't last. However, only those who have heard the teachings can appreciate that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha on account of being anicca and anatta. Thank you for your other comments in #80304. I agree with you in part - you are stressing Dukkha and the 4 Noble Truths. If dhammas are not experienced and there is no attachment to them, then they are not an aspect of the Truths. As you say, the path is about relinquishment of attachment to these conditioned dhammas. However, in the wider sense of 'sabbe sankhara anicca....dukkha...', all conditioned dhammas whatsoever are anicca, are dukkha. Only the lokuttara dhammas are not subject to clinging. This is how I see it, but you raise good points for reflection, Howard. I had planned to check a couple of texts for refs, but no time now. A good topic to keep open. I hope you and all have had a happy and joyous Xmas and wishing you a wise and healthy New Year ahead. Metta, Sarah *p.s James, how are my statistics for December doing now re dukkha vs anatta? lol DUKKHA DUKKHA DUKKHA ====== #80476 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation nilovg Dear Robert A, = Op 25-dec-2007, om 17:24 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > N: As intellectual understanding grows there will be conditions for > direct awareness of one dhamma at a time. > ------- > R: I don't think that is a given. Take for example a university > professor > who is a scholar of Theravada Buddhism, but does not put any of it > into > practice. He may know every word of the Pali Canon, but as his > intellectual understanding grows, will there be conditions for sati? > > I believe there has to be something else besides intellectual > understanding. Do you agree, and if you do, what do you think it is? -------- N: One may know the whole of the Pali canon but be forgetful of the real purpose of the study: the elimination of ignorance of realities and all other defilements. One of the conditions for enlightenment is association with the right friend in Dhamma, and listening to him/her. You may wonder how one knows who is the right friend. One can find out for oneself whether association with him/her helps one to understand more what appears now through one of the six doorways. One also has to check what one hears with the Tipitaka. One may read all the texts with wrong understanding, or one may think that one knows everything already and has nothing more to learn. Conceit is in the way of developing understanding. A certain humility is necessary. When one realizes that one understands very little one will be more openminded to listen and learn. The more one learns, the more one realizes that one understands very little. We have accumulated ignorance for aeons. > > ------------------------------------------------- > N: ... > < Thus, there are different levels of paññå: intellectual > understanding > based on listening to the Dhamma, and paññå accompanied by sati that > is directly aware of the characteristics of realities appearing now > through one of the six doorways. .... > The objects of sati and pa~n~naa are nothing else but the dhammas we > studied and considered before. > --------------- > R: The question is - what is the difference between the moment of > thinking about nåma and rúpa, and the moment there is awareness of > one characteristic of nåma or rúpa at a time? One possible answer is > the presence of greed, hatred, and delusion or the absence of these > things. --------- N: When kusala citta arises there is absence anyway of greed, hatred, and delusion. Thus, when we listen and study the Dhamma there is kusala citta with alobha, adosa and a degree of pa~n~naa. Thus this goes also for intellectual understanding or thinking about realities. The difference is herein: awareness and direct understanding of the characteristics of naama and ruupa as they appear one at a time is much clearer than thinking about their 'story'. When we realize that we know so little it can instill a sense of urgency to be aware just of what appears now. We have to start from scratch. This is the only way to have right understanding of realities. At the same time we should know that clinging to having more understanding is not helpful but counteractive. I remember words from the late Phra Dhammadharo: "What do you want awareness for? Do you want to show it to someone else?" --------- > R: This is where the idea comes up that states of deep > concentration provide a moment of lucidity - because in deep states of > concentration the five hindrances are not there. -------- N: The question is: lucidity in what way? What is the object of this lucidity? Nama or ruupa now or a kasina? During jhaanacitta the hindrances are suppressed. But the object is not: one naama or ruupa at a time. So, is this useful for us now, at the present day and age? ------- > R: But then we have the > question, does concentration lead to the temporary quieting of the > five > hindrances or does the temporary quieting of the five hindrances > lead to > the arising of concentration? ------ N: When one has cultivated all the conditions for jhaana it can arise and then the hin- drances are suppressed. One has to develop the jhaanafactors and these are the opposites of the hindrances. But in order to develop insight as well one has to emerge from jhaana and be aware of naama and ruupa all over. One cannot forego developing all the stages of insight. Jhaana is difficult and rare and if one believes that one wants to cultivate jhaana as well as insight, one has to make sure that the jhaana one attains is true jhaana and not something else one takes for jhaana. Lobha is very clever and can mislead us our whole life. Jhaana suppresses attachment to sense-objects, it is seclusion from visible object, sound etc. Whereas insight is right understanding of all these sense objects. Thus, the aim and method of the development of jhaana and of insight are completely different. Nina. #80477 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha: From the PTS Pali-English Dictionary sarahprocter... HI TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > Re: S: Is there not attachment all the time to transient pleasant > feelings? > Is > it not this attachment which brings grief? > > TG Response: Then why not just say "Attachment Dukkha"? ... which is > much > more fundamental than this rather "surface" example of it. .... S: I think that attachment (tanha) is directly or indirectly bound up with all Dukkha. As we know, without tankha, no samsara, no dukkha. A good point to consider, however. .... > The second type of dukkha according to tradition, that of formations, > basically covers all "potential Dukkha" ... while the first covers the > immediate > experience of dukkha. Based on the strategy of the traditional > interpretation, > that seems to me to be all you would need to list. ... S: Another good point. I agree with your first comment about the second type of dukkha (of formations). The first type covers the immediate 'obviously perceived' experience of dukkha. The point of the third type, especially referring to the pleasant, is, I think, that it is also the immediate experience of dukkha, but not so often perceived as such. ... > My own sense in reading them, which may be utterly wrong, is that > Sankhara > Dukkha has more to do with mental formations that generate kamma. ... S: This is the meaning in D.O. It is in this context, particularly referring to cetana and mental formations generating kamma as you say. There are other wider contexts, such as a) referring to sankhara khandha and b) referring to all sankhara dhammas, i.e all conditioned dhammas. [See Nyantiloka's dictionary]. ... > > The third Dukkha then would be due to impermanence. While the first is > more > obviously direct pain. All Dukkhas by necessity are dealing with > conditionality IMO .... S: Yes. By understanding more about conditionality, we see that even obvious, direct pain is an aspect of this conditionality. .... > With this approach (my approach), there are three significantly > different > conditional aspects that all have great bearing on the matter of Dukkha. > > Worthy of being separately classified IMO. ... S: Certainly worthy of further consideration. Thanks for your comments, TG. If Scott, Connie or any Xmas bookworms have time, perhaps they can do some fishing for further helpful quotes. Metta, Sarah ======= #80478 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation sarahprocter... Hi Robert A & all, --- Robert wrote: > "a state of silent observation which is perfectly clear and intense, > without > ideas or distinct thoughts, without forms or symbols or words." .... S: I think that with a growth of mindfulness and understanding, it becomes more and more apparent that there is thinking almost all the time. This doesn't mean just thinking in terms of forms, symbols or words, but even the quickest of impressions. A moment of seeing is very, very brief and each sense door process is always followed by mind door process(es). So any moments of direct 'silent observation' are very transient too - not worth clinging to in the slightest. I've heard friends raise comments like this with A.Sujin. She always asks what the reality is that is known at such times. Indeed, what is the reality now? If there's no understanding now of dhammas appearing, very precisely, then any 'silent observation' will not be sati or panna. ... > > He also makes the point that: > > "this silence of the mind and inner transparence cannot be the outcome > of > an act of discipline. The absence of fabrication and objectification by > the > mind cannot be the effect of the will of the 'I-process', but arises > from an > informal and transcendent understanding of an intuitive nature." ... S: Again, I think the aim is not a 'silence of the mind', but an understanding of whatever is conditioned 'to appear', regardless of whether the reality is thinking, wrong view or any other dhamma. ... > > Khun Sujin puts great stress on the study and naming of things (in Pali > and > English). ... S: I would say the opposite. She puts great stress on it not mattering what we 'name' any reality in Pali or English (or Thai). I'd also like to comment that in all the years I've listened to her and studied with her, she has never told me or even strongly advised me to read any text whatsoever. She just talks about dhammas (realities) and the understanding of these no matter what one's lifestyle, no matter what one's inclinations are. We have many friends who have studied with her for years who've hardly ever opened a Dhamma text book in any language. The message they hear is exactly the same message as those who are Pali experts hear. 'Is there seeing now? Is there visible object now? Is there awareness of it now?'. .... >In her teachings, do things ever cross over to the state of > silent > observation described above, or are you forever making reference to > ideas > and words? ... S: We have to use ideas and words to really examine and consider what is meant in the Teachings and to explain any understanding of realities. As I suggested, for me, to refer to 'a state of silent observation' without careful reference to namas, rupas and anatta is not very helpful. My yogi friends make similar comments about 'being still in the moment', 'silent observation'. .... >If they do reach this point of silent obeservation, ... S: K.Sujin would ask you who reaches anything. What is the purpose of 'silent observation'? What are the realities at such a time? Or now? ... >how the > words and the will to study condition the arising of what is beyond > words > and will? ... S: Without hearing or studying what is real now, there can never be any awareness or understanding of these realities. This is why it needs a Buddha to point out the truths. I appreciate it all may sound like some kind of conundrum for now, but greatly appreciate your careful consideration. It is rather like putting the parts of a puzzle together. When they slot into place, we wonder why we didn't see it before.... Look forward to reading any of your further comments, Robert. Also, do listen to a short extract of one of the edited recordings of A.Sujin answering questions, such as the one with Erik and friends at www.dhammastudygroup.org Metta, Sarah ======== #80479 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:14 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (72) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 14 15. Cattaaliisanipaato 1. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 415. "Eva.m ma.m bhattikata.m, anuratta.m kaarika.m nihatamaana.m; u.t.thaayika.m analasa.m, siilavati.m dussate bhattaa. 413. My husband offended against me, who in this way had shown him devotion, an affectionate servant with humbled pride, an early riser, not lazy, virtuous. Bhattikatanti katasaamibhatika.m. Anurattanti anurattavanti.m. Kaarikanti tassa tasseva iti kattabbassa kaarika.m. Nihatamaananti apaniitamaana.m. U.t.thaayikanti u.t.thaanaviiriyasampanna.m. Analasanti tato eva akusiita.m. Siilavatinti siilaacaarasampanna.m. Dussateti dussati, kujjhitvaa bha.nati. 413. Who had shown [him] devotion (bhatti-kata.m) means: acting like my husband's servant (kata-saami-bhatika.m). A servant means: a servant [doing] this and that had to be done. With humbled pride means: free from arrogance. An early riser (u.t.thaayika.m) means: endowed with resurgent energy (u.t.thaana-viriya-sampanna.m). Not lazy means: as a result, not slack. Virtuous (siilavatin) means: endowed with virtuous conduct (siilaacaara-sampanna.m). [He] offended (dussate) [against me] means: he offended (dussati), he spoke in anger. 416. "So maatara~nca pitara~nca, bha.nati aapucchaha.m gamissaami; isidaasiyaa na saha vaccha.m, ekaagaareha.m saha vatthu.m. 414. He said to his mother and father, "I will take leave and go. I will not live together with Isidaasii, living together in one and the same house." Bha.nati aapucchaha.m gamissaamiiti "aha.m tumhe aapucchitvaa yattha katthaci gamissaamii"ti so mama saamiko attano maatara~nca pitara~nca bha.nati. Ki.m bha.natiiti ce aaha- "isidaasiyaa na saha vaccha.m, ekaagaareha.m saha vatthun"ti. Tattha vacchanti vasissa.m. 414. He said, "I will take leave (aapucch') and go" means: he said, "Having taken leave of you (aapucchitvaa), I will go somewhere else." My husband said this to his own mother and father. If you ask why he said that, the answer is: "I will not live together with Isidaasii, living together in one and the same house." There, I will live (vaccha.m) means: I will live (vasissa.m). 418. "Na ca me hi.msati ki~nci, na caha.m isidaasiyaa saha vaccha.m; dessaava me ala.m me, apucchaaha.m gamissaami. 416. "She does me no harm, but I will not live with Isidaasii. To me she is just odious. I have had enough. Having taken leave, I will go." Dessaati appiyaa. Ala.m meti payojana.m me taaya itthiiti attho Apucchaaha.m gamissaamiiti yadi me tumhe taaya saddhi.m sa.mvaasa.m icchatha, aha.m tumhe apucchitvaa videsa.m pakkamissaami. 416. Odious means: unpleasant. I've had enough means: I have no business with her. That is the meaning. Having taken leave (apucchaaha.m), I will go means: if you want me to live together with her, I will take leave of you (apucchitvaa) and go to a foreign country. 419. "Tassa vacana.m su.nitvaa, sassu sasuro ca ma.m apucchi.msu; kissa tayaa aparaddha.m, bha.na vissa.t.thaa yathaabhuuta.m. 417. Hearing this utterance, my father-in-law and mother-in-law asked me, "What offence against him have you committed? Tell us confidently how it really was." Tassaati mama bhattuno. Kissaati ki.m assa tava saamikassa. Tayaa aparaddha.m byaalika.m kata.m. 417. His means: my husband's. What [offence] against him (ki 'ssa) means: what (ki.m) offence have you committed, [what] fault has been committed, against him (assa), your husband. === to be continued, connie #80480 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation avalo1968 Hello Nina, Thank you for your reply. N: One may know the whole of the Pali canon but be forgetful of the real purpose of the study: the elimination of ignorance of realities and all other defilements. One of the conditions for enlightenment is association with the right friend in Dhamma, and listening to him/her. You may wonder how one knows who is the right friend. One can find out for oneself whether association with him/her helps one to understand more what appears now through one of the six doorways. One also has to check what one hears with the Tipitaka. One may read all the texts with wrong understanding, or one may think that one knows everything already and has nothing more to learn. Conceit is in the way of developing understanding. A certain humility is necessary. When one realizes that one understands very little one will be more openminded to listen and learn. The more one learns, the more one realizes that one understands very little. We have accumulated ignorance for aeons. ------------- R: One of the conditions for enlightenment is association with the right friend in Dhamma and listening to him/her, but aren't there other conditions you could cite, or do you consider these to be the only conditions for enlightenment? In the section below you seem to be saying that listening to Dhamma gives rise to kusala citta, which gives rise to the absence of greed, hatred, and delusion. So, it sounds like listening to Dhamma is the path. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ N: When kusala citta arises there is absence anyway of greed, hatred, and delusion. Thus, when we listen and study the Dhamma there is kusala citta with alobha, adosa and a degree of pa~n~naa. Thus this goes also for intellectual understanding or thinking about realities. The difference is herein: awareness and direct understanding of the characteristics of naama and ruupa as they appear one at a time is much clearer than thinking about their 'story'. When we realize that we know so little it can instill a sense of urgency to be aware just of what appears now. We have to start from scratch. This is the only way to have right understanding of realities. At the same time we should know that clinging to having more understanding is not helpful but counteractive. I remember words from the late Phra Dhammadharo: "What do you want awareness for? Do you want to show it to someone else?" ------------------- R: Are you taking 'awareness and direct understanding of the characteristics of naama and ruupa as they appear one at a time ' as a translation of dhamma-vicaya, the second of the seven factors of enlightenment? ---------------------------------------------------------------- > R: This is where the idea comes up that states of deep > concentration provide a moment of lucidity - because in deep states of > concentration the five hindrances are not there. -------- N: The question is: lucidity in what way? What is the object of this lucidity? Nama or ruupa now or a kasina? During jhaanacitta the hindrances are suppressed. But the object is not: one naama or ruupa at a time. So, is this useful for us now, at the present day and age? ------- > R: But then we have the > question, does concentration lead to the temporary quieting of the > five > hindrances or does the temporary quieting of the five hindrances > lead to > the arising of concentration? ------ N: When one has cultivated all the conditions for jhaana it can arise and then the hin- drances are suppressed. One has to develop the jhaanafactors and these are the opposites of the hindrances. But in order to develop insight as well one has to emerge from jhaana and be aware of naama and ruupa all over. One cannot forego developing all the stages of insight. Jhaana is difficult and rare and if one believes that one wants to cultivate jhaana as well as insight, one has to make sure that the jhaana one attains is true jhaana and not something else one takes for jhaana. Lobha is very clever and can mislead us our whole life. Jhaana suppresses attachment to sense-objects, it is seclusion from visible object, sound etc. Whereas insight is right understanding of all these sense objects. Thus, the aim and method of the development of jhaana and of insight are completely different. ---------------- R: My understanding of your answer to my questions is that you are saying that quieting the hindrances through listening to dhamma leads to sati and dhamma-vicaya, which then gives rise to the others of the seven factors of enlightenment? Is this correct? Thank you once again Nina for your help. I regret I take up so much of your time and yet seem to understand so little. Robert A. #80481 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/26/2007 5:34:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Thank you for your other comments in #80304. I agree with you in part - you are stressing Dukkha and the 4 Noble Truths. If dhammas are not experienced and there is no attachment to them, then they are not an aspect of the Truths. As you say, the path is about relinquishment of attachment to these conditioned dhammas. However, in the wider sense of 'sabbe sankhara anicca....dukkha...', all conditioned dhammas whatsoever are anicca, are dukkha. Only the lokuttara dhammas are not subject to clinging. This is how I see it, but you raise good points for reflection, Howard. I had planned to check a couple of texts for refs, but no time now. A good topic to keep open. I hope you and all have had a happy and joyous Xmas and wishing you a wise and healthy New Year ahead. ================================= Thanks, Sarah! The same to you & Jon, and to all of us here. May 2008 be a great year of peace and understanding - a year of peace in the world, in all our interpersonal relations, and in our hearts. With metta, Howard #80482 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:34 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 8, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 8 The Cycle of Birth and Death In Lumbini we sat down for a Dhamma discussion near the pool that reminds us of the two streams of water coming down from the sky which were used as a water libation for the Bodhisatta and his mother, just after he was born. As we read in the Commentary to the "Chronicle of Buddhas" (the "Clarifier of Sweet Meaning"), the Bodhisatta took seven strides and, scanning all the quarters of the world, he said: "I am chief in the world, I am best in the world, I am eldest in the world. This is the last birth, there is not now again-becoming." We still cling to rebirth and we are very far from reaching the end of rebirth. We cling to the five khandhas that constitute what we call a "person". One of our friends asked Acharn Sujin why the five khandhas are a burden. She was referring to the following sutta: "The Burden" (Kindred Sayings III, Khandhå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Elements, First Fifty, Ch 3, §22) [1]. We read: “Monks, I will explain to you the burden, the laying hold of the burden, the holding on to the burden, the laying down of the burden. Listen. What, monks, is the burden? ‘The five khandhas of clinging’ is the answer. Which five? They are the khandha of clinging to corporeality... to feelings... to perceptions... to mental formations... to consciousness. This, monks, is called ‘the burden’. What is the laying hold of the burden? The answer is that it is the person, the Venerable So-and-so, of such- and-such a family. This, monks, is called ‘the laying hold of the burden’. What is the holding on to the burden? The answer is that it is that craving which gives rise to fresh rebirth and, bound up with lust and greed, now here now there finds ever fresh delight. It is sensual craving, craving for existence, craving for non-existence. This, monks, is called ‘the holding on to the burden.’ What is the laying down of the burden? It is the complete fading away and extinction of this craving, its forsaking and giving up, liberation and detachment from it. This, monks, is called ‘the laying down of the burden.’ Thus said the Blessed One, the Wellfarere spoke thus; the Teacher then said: The five khandhas are the heavy load, The seizing of the load is man. Holding it is dukkha, Laying down the load is bliss (sukha). Laying down this heavy load, And no other taking up, By uprooting all desire, Hunger is stilled, Nibbåna is gained.” ------------ 1. I used the translation by M.Walshe, Wheel no. 318-321, B.P.S. Kandy. ****** Nina. #80483 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:38 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > I understand the present reality well enough to know that it is > devoid of self. There is no entity that will persist from the > present, unenlightened, state to a future, enlightened, state. With > that understanding, I cannot possibly be interested in "trying" > or "striving" for enlightenment, can I? It wouldn't make sense. It wouldn't make sense not to: "I exhort you, monks: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring about completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last words. Metta, James #80484 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > *p.s James, how are my statistics for December doing now re dukkha vs > anatta? lol DUKKHA DUKKHA DUKKHA > ====== I don't know. I just did that because Ken H. said I was lying. It was the first and probably the last time. Metta, James #80485 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation avalo1968 Hello Sarah, Thank you for your reply. S: I think that with a growth of mindfulness and understanding, it becomes more and more apparent that there is thinking almost all the time. This doesn't mean just thinking in terms of forms, symbols or words, but even the quickest of impressions. A moment of seeing is very, very brief and each sense door process is always followed by mind door process(es). So any moments of direct 'silent observation' are very transient too - not worth clinging to in the slightest. I've heard friends raise comments like this with A.Sujin. She always asks what the reality is that is known at such times. Indeed, what is the reality now? If there's no understanding now of dhammas appearing, very precisely, then any 'silent observation' will not be sati or panna. ------ R: What is the quality of that 'moment of seeing' you cite? If there are moments when our minds have the capacity to see what we could not see before, how does that become possible? In my previous exchange with Nina, my understanding was she believes this capacity arises from listening to Dhamma, but you seem to disagree with this: ------ S: I would say the opposite. She puts great stress on it not mattering what we 'name' any reality in Pali or English (or Thai). I'd also like to comment that in all the years I've listened to her and studied with her, she has never told me or even strongly advised me to read any text whatsoever. She just talks about dhammas (realities) and the understanding of these no matter what one's lifestyle, no matter what one's inclinations are. We have many friends who have studied with her for years who've hardly ever opened a Dhamma text book in any language. The message they hear is exactly the same message as those who are Pali experts hear. 'Is there seeing now? Is there visible object now? Is there awareness of it now?'. ------ R: You seem to be saying there is no preparation for seeing. You just do it. But later you seem to be agreeing with Nina that the preparation for seeing is listening to Dhamma. ----- S: Without hearing or studying what is real now, there can never be any awareness or understanding of these realities. This is why it needs a Buddha to point out the truths. I appreciate it all may sound like some kind of conundrum for now, but greatly appreciate your careful consideration. It is rather like putting the parts of a puzzle together. When they slot into place, we wonder why we didn't see it before.... ----- R: I believe that seeing doesn't just happen - there is a path to awakening which is the path that gives rise to this capacity to see. What I am hearing is that you and Nina both believe that path to be primarily or exclusively listening to Dhamma and nothing else you do has much bearing on developing this capacity to see clearly. Never mind 'who' is seeing clearly, but you will agree that clear seeing must arise for understanding to arise, right? So, does that clear seeing arise from listening to Dhamma, that this is the practice? With appreciation for your persistence in explaining things to me, Robert A. #80486 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:10 am Subject: Perfections Corner (64) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness The Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" defines the perfection of loving-kindness, mettaa, as follows: "Loving-kindness has the characteristic of promoting the welfare (of living beings); its function is to provide for their welfare, or its function is to remove resentment; its manifestation is kindliness; seeing the agreeable side of beings is its proximate cause." Among the ten perfections, the perfection of mettaa, loving-kindness, follows upon the perfection of determination. In the Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" the reason for this is explained: "(a) because loving-kindness perfects the determination to undertake activity for the welfare of others; (b) in order to list the work of actually providing for the welfare of others right after stating the determination to do so, for "one determined upon the requisites of enlightenment abides in loving-kindness"; and (c) because the undertaking (of activity for the welfare of others) proceeds imperturbably only when determination is unshakable." For someone who is firmly established in the development of kusala with the aim to eradicate defilements and who has accumulated the perfection of determination, it is natural to practise loving-kindness. We can verify for ourselves whether we are firmly established in the development of kusala and whether we develop loving-kindness time and again. When someone is not inclined to anger and when he often practises mettaa, it shows that he sees the benefit of non-anger and of the development of the perfections leading to the eradication of the defilements. Someone may believe that life belongs to him, but in reality there are only different dhammas that arise and fall away very rapidly. He should develop more understanding of his life, of his kusala cittas and akusala cittas. When we reflect on the perfections that were mentioned before, such as generosity and morality, we may believe that we have developed them already sufficiently. As to renunciation, nekkhamma, we believe that we are already contented with little, that we have fewness of wishes. As to energy, we think that we are not easily disheartened, that we have diligence and endeavour in our undertakings. We may find that we have sufficient patience and endurance. We believe that we are truthful: we speak the truth and act according to our words. We believe that we have determination, that we are firmly established in their resolutions. However, we should ask ourselves whether we have already sufficiently developed the perfection of mettaa. We may be forgetful of assisting others with loving-kindness, of developing mettaa in this way, time and again. We should support others with mettaa, also when they are strangers, people we do not know. If one has not yet accumulated all the perfections, none excepted, there are not sufficient conditions for the elimination of defilements. ==to be continued, connie #80487 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - << snip >> ----- R: I believe that seeing doesn't just happen - there is a path to awakening which is the path that gives rise to this capacity to see. What I am hearing is that you and Nina both believe that path to be primarily or exclusively listening to Dhamma and nothing else you do has much bearing on developing this capacity to see clearly. Never mind 'who' is seeing clearly, but you will agree that clear seeing must arise for understanding to arise, right? So, does that clear seeing arise from listening to Dhamma, that this is the practice? With appreciation for your persistence in explaining things to me, Robert A. =================================== I think of bowling. If we know how to play but do not pick up the ball, or we do pick it up but don't look at the pins, or we do both of these but get distracted by talking or by our own thinking and forget to release the ball at all or send it right down the gutter, then we miss the target entirely. On the other hand, if we don't know the rules of the game or don't know even how to hold the ball, there's no point in going to the bowling alley to begin with! ;-) But if we do know the rules of the game and how to hold the ball, we can, with additional tips from those more adept than we, and with regular practice, learn proper placement of body, proper directing of the ball, and proper attention - and then performance improves. With knowledge, practice makes perfect. With metta, Howard #80488 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply. I find it to be rather a Barrage. A veritable > Shotgun Blast. Are you trying to Kill Me? > > A: "Only when 5 hindrances are absent you can truly understand > Buddha's teaching. Plus, only then can you achiev the paths and the > fruits." > > Scott: What are you saying here, Alex? I don't think this makes any > sense at all. When jhaana, at any level, has arisen, then, by the > simple fact that it has arisen, the hindrances are absent. It is just a natural consequence. Are you saying that simply by entering one of the jhaanas that one then 'understands Buddha's teaching'? >>> No. Simply entering the Jhana does not automatically make one understand Buddha's teaching. However if it is done in a BUDDHIST fashion, as part of noble 8 (not 7) fold path - then it helps one to undestand Buddha's teaching. Or are you > actually opining that the only way to 'understand Buddha's teaching' > is to enter jhaana? I don't think you understand the Big Picture at > all. Yours is an incredibly Jhaana-Centric view. > >>> Absolutely not. Study the SUTTAS (4 main Nikayas) and put them to practice in a Buddhist as opposed to non-Buddhist way. > A: "...In Jhana, the hindrances are removed and the higher mind is > being developed." > > Scott: What is this 'higher mind' and why should it be developed? >>>> Because without it, any 'understanding' of Buddha's teaching is superficial at best. > A: "First of all, Jhana IS NOT CONCENTRATION. It is much more than that." > > Scott: Please tell me what you see jhaana to Consist of, and, while > you're at it, where you get your Facts. >>> MN111, and AN 9.36 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html Considering that first few Jhanas contain Piti & Sukha - it is not inappropriate to call them 'Ecstasies', bliss of Enlightment (of a GOOD kind). >>>>>>> I'd like to see you describe these complex states without reference to the Abhidhamma analysis which allows you to tell me of what this state consists. If you do, I guarantee you'll get it wrong. >>> Reach Jhana and you will have first hand analysis. > > A: "...2nd) It is a must, even if it lasts for a second." > > Scott: How is 'jhaana' a must? Again, you must tell me of what Jhaana consists. >> 5 Aggregates (atleast until Arupa). 'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html "There was the case where Sariputta — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,2 desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He understood, 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it, he confirmed that 'There is.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html Lots of Metta, Alex #80489 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:26 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James and Alex, > > I think you will agree there are two types of Buddhism being > discussed at DSG. One is a religion in which devotees strive to find eternal peace and happiness in Nibbana. The other is an understanding of the present reality. >>> There is no Jhana without wisdom, no WISDOM WITHOUT JHANA. Who has both is close to emancipation/ Ken you in this 'intellectual' group refer to illogical argument called "Straw Man". You think that those who actually do the grunt work in the field, believe in "Atta" or Eternal Heaven. This is simply not true. Understanding needs a 'hightened mind' which is what Jhana provides. > > The second kind has no concept of a self that will "go on" to find > enlightenment in the future. Therefore, any conventional ideas of > striving for enlightenment (formal meditation practices) are totally foreign to it. >>> See above. Please don't use Straw Man fallacy. > I know from the recorded talks that there have been occasions when > people have almost begged K Sujin to approve of their formal > practices. As she sees it, however, they are seeking permission to > keep going 'round and round on the wheel of samsara.' And so, for > their sakes, she never gives it. > > Ken H > Too bad for her and her followers Kamma. Lots of Metta, Alex #80490 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:06 am Subject: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- Alex wrote: > > > > S: Does kamma have to be 'stored' anywhere? Yes, it may be a > > question of semantics. Is the salt 'stored' in the ocean? > ... > > If Kamma is not stored anywhere, then what causes Kammic effects? How > > can there be results of greed, if causes "greed" isn't stored > > anywhere? > .... > S: If we refer to kamma being stored, it tends to suggest something > lasting or preserved. >>> Something may last a long time but it is STILL IMPERMANENT. The 8th Jhanic sphere of existence lasts 84K MK if I remember correctly. Even though that is a HUGE time - IT IS IMPERMANENT . Cetana or kamma falls away like all other dhammas as > soon as it has arisen. However, its 'force' is accumulated. As each citta > conditions the next citta in an unbroken series of cittas, kamma > can bring a result later. > > The latent tendency of greed is also accumulated. This tendency lies > dormant until there are conditions for it to arise. If it is strong > enough, it will lead to a course of kamma-patha which will bring its > result(s) later. > > This is a difficult topic. Happy to discuss further. > > Metta, > > Sarah > Sarah, you are not saying anything I didn't say above. 'Storehouse' (Alaya Vijnana ie) and accumulations are two different ways to describe the same thing. The fact is that KAMMA stays until it brings fruits or goes defunct. The next second does NOT undo past Kamma. There is a relationship between Kamma & Kamm-vipaka. Things don't just randomly happen. Lots of Metta, Alex #80491 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:15 am Subject: Re: For Sarah and Alex RE/ "Absorption Concentration" vs Buddhas wise Janic ecstasy. truth_aerator Dear Bhante, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "reverendaggacitto" wrote: > Hi Sarah and Alex... and everybody! > > This is reverend aggacitto checking in. > The exchange between the 2 of you makes it apparent 2 ANYBODY > that has ever actually experienced Jhana access that neither of you have! >>> Are you telepathic? How do you know? :) > "you cant really have insight in a blind,deaf,cognitionless trance" > Where do you get this idea? MN152, where Buddha has refuted a student of Brahman Parasivi about proper meditation. >>> That this should describe Jhana? >>> Apparently some think that Jhana is like Brahaman Parasivi's... > The descriptions of the rupa and arupa jhana should tell one more than that! Even the 7th of jhana (3rd arupa)sphere of nothingness has to be perceived. >>> This is right and I was talking about this all along. See MN111, and Jhana Sutta AN9.3 (or 4?) >>>>>> i assure the both of you that if you work at it,(most dont have > the disipline and adopt such views instead)when you are viewing your nimitta it will be the most "insightful" experience of your lives! >>>> If nimita's were of any importance, then they would be mentioned OFTEN. Somehow in the main meditation suttas this isn't mentioned. Nimita's are generally later concept. The only nimitta of this sort could be from Asubha practice where after a long practice you see the 'repulsive in the unrepulsive' ie. > HOMEWORK QUESTION!... > What does the word Jhana mean? > The best, experiential definition would be "Ecstasy" due to having pitisukha in the first 3, and being called "Nibbana here and now" by certain heretics. Contemplation, Meditation, Burning, are the other definitions. The wost explanation is "Concentration". People who concentrate simply cannot achieve true Ecstasy, they get headache instead... Lots of Metta, Alex #80492 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:18 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "...MN111, and AN 9.36...Considering that first few Jhanas contain Piti & Sukha - it is not inappropriate to call them 'Ecstasies', bliss of Enlightment (of a GOOD kind)." Scott: In MN111 (~Naa.namoli/Bodhi trs.): "And the states in the first jhaana - the applied thought, the sustained thought, the rapture, the pleasure, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind; the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known the were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.' Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: 'There is an escape beyond,' and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is." "...Ye ca pa.thame jhaane dhammaa vitakko ca vicaaro ca piiti ca sukha~nca cittekaggataa ca phasso vedanaa sa~n~naa cetanaa citta.m chando adhimokkho viriya.m sati upekkhaa manasikaaro. Tyaassa dhammaa anupadavavatthitaa honti, tyaassa dhammaa viditaa uppajjanti, viditaa upa.t.thahanti, viditaa abbhattha.m gacchanti. So eva.m pajaanaati: eva.m kira me dhammaa ahutvaa sambhonti, hutvaa pa.tivenii'ti. So tesu dhammesu anupayo anapaayo anissito appa.tibaddho vippamutto visa.myutto vimariyaadiikatena cetasaa viharati. So atthi uttari.m nissara.na'nti pajaanaati. Tabbahuliikaaraa atthitvevassa hoti." Scott: Here, Alex, is a Very Clear example, from the suttas, of Abhidhamma and the role of pa~n~naa. Here, it seems, Saariputta is shown to have rather highly developed pa~n~naa, perhaps (but I don't know for sure) at the level of duayabbaha ~naa.na or bhanga ~naa.na. The sutta demonstrates that it is Understanding (pa~n~naa) that is the Operative Factor. It shows jhaana to take Second Place to vipassanaa, since it is the Mental Factors 'one by one as they occurred' which were understood by pa~n~naa. How do you know, when 'meditating', that it is sukha, or piiti, or whatever mental factor that is present? Sincerely, Scott. #80493 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Absorption 'Concentration' Vs Buddha's wise Jhanic Ecstasy truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex again (& all***) > > --- Alex wrote: > > > Did Buddha really teach concentration? First lets remember that word > > such as: > > > > Ekaggata DOES NOT mean concentration! Ekagga= calm, tranquil pg 184 > > (A new course in reading Pali). > ... > S: Sorry, but ekaggata does mean concentration or one-pointedness. It is a > 'universal' meantal factor which arises with every single citta. >>> That is one of the difinitions of Ekagga(Calm, tranquil) ta. Anyways, even if you prefer to mistranslate it as Concentration. Remember, the one pointedness is due to stillness & calm - NEVER THROUGH FORCE. Buddha has tried to crush mind with mind, it doesn't work - but it does give a large headache which would be incompatible with pitisukha. Remember, Buddha has NEVER taught access or momentary or (even worse) fixed absorption 'concentration' which is more like aversion rather than true insight. >> > Another thing. When you concentrate hard you get headaches! When you > > have headaches it is hard to experience piti-sukha rapture & > > happiness. > ... > S: Yes, because the concentration is akusala - worse than useless! > .... > So do Jhana (Ecstasy) instead! Do it in a proper way as is said in the suttas. >Also another result of treating Samadhi or Jhana as > > concentration is the breaking the path into two paths (not found in > > the suttas). You can't really have insight if you are in blind- deaf- > > cognitionless trance. > ... > S: Definitely not. And if one has the illusion that concentrating and concentrating will be of any value whatsoever on the path and pursues such a practice, one goes further and further away from the Teachings. >>> If we refer to the state described in VsM and such, then I agree. Buddha didn't teach concentration. He taught JHANA. Happy Holidays, Lots of Metta, Alex #80494 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:31 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Scott: Here, Alex, is a Very Clear example, from the suttas, of > Abhidhamma and the role of pa~n~naa. >>> Yes, I agree. Panna in Jhana is CRUCIAL. Furthermore thank you for pasting those paragraphs showing that Jhana (Buddhist Ecstasy) and Insight are inseparable. >>>>>>>> Here, it seems, Saariputta is > shown to have rather highly developed pa~n~naa, perhaps (but I don't > know for sure) at the level of duayabbaha ~naa.na or bhanga ~naa.na. >>> He was doing it as a sotapanna. The sutta doesn't say that that meditation was only for Sariputta. Furthermore, even in AN 9.36 the 5 aggregates are mentioned WHILE in the Jhana. > The sutta demonstrates that it is Understanding (pa~n~naa) that is the > Operative Factor. It shows jhaana to take Second Place to vipassanaa, > since it is the Mental Factors 'one by one as they occurred' which > were understood by pa~n~naa. > > How do you know, when 'meditating', that it is sukha, or piiti, or > whatever mental factor that is present? Sati & Panna, for example. happy holidays, Alex #80495 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] - Nirodha truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex (& all), > > I think the main discussion points now are: > > 1. Is prior attainment of Jhana essential to enlightenment? Yes. But it may last only for a second. >>> > 2. Are all jhanas required? >>> For some yes, for some 1st-4th *may* be sufficient. >> > 3. Is nirodha samapatti a requisite condition for enlightenment and is it obtainable anyway for those who are not anagamis or arahants? >>> It may be required for some. > 4. Is it really possible to obtain jhana today and to do so during one's > 'insight meditation' on the cushion? >> Of course if you practice every day, keep your precepts, have not commited 5 heineous crimes, go to retreats from time to time, etc. > (5. ....and by the way, what is this hour of 'insight meditation' anyway?) >>>> Proper Jhana. >>> For those who do not obtain jhanas prior to insight/enlightenment, other dhammas are the 'support'. >>> Give examples please. Name 'em! Even when someone has reached sotapanna while listening to the Buddha a) Could have reached Jhana before in this or previous lives b) Achieved a Jhana for a second WHILE listening. > > In B.Bodhi's translation (in 'Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'), he > gives this note here: > > "In what follows the Buddha will show the attainment of arahantship (or > the state of non-returning) through a method that employs tranquillity as > a basis for insight. The method described seems to correspond to 'insight > preceded by tranquillity', though it might also be interpreted as > 'tranquillity and insight joined in pairs' [see AN IV, 170, Yuganadha > Sutta]. >>>> Tranquility and insight are like two sides of a coin (Proper Jhana). > S: I would phrase this a little differently, but the point is that as we > read in the Yuganadha Sutta, 'tranquillity as a basis for insight' or > 'insight preceded by tranquillity' does not always occur. In fact, I'd > argue that it is only in exceptional cases, such as for some disciples in > the time of the Buddha or soon after. Jhana is a part of N8P. Are you saying that we have to follow only a Noble Sevenfold path??? > ..... > > "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > > first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it > > said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, > > withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first > > jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by > > directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there > > that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & > > consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an > > arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, > > not-self. > ... > S: As the text indicates, jhana and jhana factors are a support for the > path only when they too are seen as anicca, dukkha and anatta. >>> And Dependent Origination (causality) too. Such states > are not seen with insight when jhana cittas are present, but only when they have fallen away. [see end of sutta] >> WHILE IN THE JHANA YOU SEE THAT. Even though you do not prolifirate with thoughts, cognition and recognition IS PRESENT. > > Again, let me include B.Bodhi's note at the same point again where I > paused to discuss: > > "The attainment of jhaana is samatha or tranquillity; the contemplation of > the constituent phenomena as impermanent, etc., is vipassanaa or insight, according to AA [S: the sub-commentary, Tiika] 'powerful insight-wisdom'. In this passage the Buddha explains how the meditator develops insight using the jhaana as the basis for contemplation. The meditator dissects the experience of jhaana into the five aggregates (form, feeling, etc.), >>> WHILE IN THE JHANA. > S: Without insight into the jhanas, they are not any basis/support for enlightenment > at all. > ..... Of course. One has to have insight. > >He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having > > done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is > > peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the > > relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; > > dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' > > Again, looking at what B.Bodhi adds at the end of this passage: > > "This striking passage shows the transition from the highest level of > insight to the supramundane path. When, by insight, the monk has fully > fathomed the afflictive nature of the five aggregates, his mind turns away > from all conditioned phenomena and focuses upon Nibbaana, 'the deathless > element', as the only genuine escape from conditioned existence. He then > attains arahantship; but if a subtle clinging to that experience remains, > a subtle enjoyment of it, he becomes a non-returner, who attains > parinibbaana after being reborn in a celestial realm > ..... Somewhere the Buddha has said that Jhana has 4 results: stream, once return, non-return, arahatship. The Delightful Discourse Pasadika Sutta (DN 29) 24.2 "There are, Cunda, these four kinds of life devoted to pleasure, which are conducive to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to tranquility, to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. What are they? First a monk detached from sense-desires, detached from unwholesome mental states, enters and remains in the first jhana...the fourth jhana, which is beyond pleasure and pain, and purified by equanimity and mindfulness." 25. Then such wanderers might ask: "Well then, those who are given to these four forms of pleasure-seeking - how many fruits, how many benefits can they expect?" And, you should reply: "They can expect four fruits, four benefits. What are they? The first is when a monk by destruction of three fetters has become a Stream-Winner, no more subject to rebirth in lower worlds, firmly established, destined for full enlightenment; the second is when a monk by the complete destruction of three fetters and the reduction of greed, hatred and delusion, has become a Once-Returner, and having returned once more to this world, will put an end to suffering; the third is when a monk, by the destruction of the corruptions in this very life has, by his own knowledge and realization, attained Arahantship, to the deliverance of heart and through wisdom. Such are the four fruits and the four benefits that one given to these four forms of pleasure- seeking can expect." a translation from the Pali by Maurice Walshe, Wisdom Publications, Boston 1987, 1995 Jhanasamyutta (SN 9.53) "Bhikkhus, there are these five higher fetters. What five? Lust for form, lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. The four absorptions (jhanas) are to be developed for direct knowledge of these five higher fetters, for the full understanding of them, for their utter destruction, for their abandoning." (Samyutta Nikaya trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom, 2000) > > "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a > > straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become > > able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid > > succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the > > case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & > > pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > > evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected > > with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as > > inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an > > affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns > > his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his > > mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is > > exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of > > all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; > > Unbinding.' > ... > S: I believe this refers to one skilled in jhana and insight, like an > accomplished archer. With the growth of insight, there is more and more > detachment from all conditioned dhammas, including jhanas, as wisdom turns > more and more towards the unconditioned, the animitta (signless) dhamma, > nibbana. > > Again, looking at B.Bodhi's note: > > "AA does not explain the simile, but it seems that the practice on the > straw man is like the insight contemplation of the aggregates, while the > feeling of the large body is like the destruction of the taints by > penetrating the deathless element." > .... > > "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental > > fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very dhamma- passion, > > this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the > > first five of the fetters1 — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure > > Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that > > world. > ... > S: See BB note above about the anagami. > ... > > "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > > first jhana.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. > > > > (Similarly with the other levels of jhana up through the dimension of > > nothingness.) > > > > "Thus, as far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as > > gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two spheres — the attainment of > > the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the > > attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception — I tell you that > > they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, > > skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have > > attained & emerged in dependence on them." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html > ..... > S: For me, the key words here are 'who have attained & emerged in > dependence on them'. There is no insight whilst in jhana or nirodha > samapatti. > This is right. When it comes to 8th Jhana or Nirodha, you have to emerge first. Same is said elsewhere, such as mn111. > BB's note" > "The base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception is too subtle to be > explored by insight knowledge, [Alex: WHILE IN THE STATE]. and the cessation of perception and feeling > is altogether devoid of mental constituents. Thus these two attainments > cannot be directly taken as objects for investigation with insight. But > both can be used as means for achieving temporary purification of the > mind, on the basis of which the meditator can practise insight meditation > on grosser objects and thereby attain arahantship." > > S: Conditions, especially natural decisive support condition are very > wide. Here, I understand these attainments to be support and natural > decisive support condition for insight/enlightenment for those who are > already anagamis. >>>> Just because only last 2 stages of awakening are mentioned, doesn't mean that only there Nirodha can be reached. Lots of Metta, Alex #80496 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta vs Abhidhamma truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Last one for a few days.... > > --- Alex wrote: > > > It seem that you are assuming that Dhamma means Abhidhamma. > > > > In AN 4.180 it says that Dhamma = the Discources (Suttas). > ... > S: It says 'This is Dhamma, this is Vinaya, this is the Master's teaching' > (aya.m dhammo aya.m vinayo ida.m sattusaasana"nti) > > The Dhamma-Vinaya, as made clear in the commentaries, refers to the > Tipitaka. Sutta = Suttanta-Abhidhamma-Pi.takaani. > .... The thing is, you are saying a commentarial interpretation and I am giving a sutta. The style and content of AP is simply TOO different from things spoken by the Buddha. Of course AP has some Dhamma in it, a lot of material in AP is additional. What factor of Awakening says to study 7 books of AP? > > >S: I've shown how at the time of the 1st council, the Tipitaka was > > referred to as Dhamma-Vinaya. I believe in suttas such as the > > > Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the Buddha instructed the bhikkhus to take > > the `dhamma-vinaya' as their Teacher after he passed away. > > >>> > > > > > > > In the series I wrote on the Vinaya and its commentary, the > > Bahiranidana, I indicated how the Khudakka Nikaya included in the > > recital includes the > > > Abhidhamma texts. In the Atthasalini (the commentary to the > > > Dhammasangani), it says: > > >>> > > > >A: That is commentary. I am far too conservative to be a radical > > Theravadin. > .... > S: This is where you have it very wrong. It is the 'conservative' or > traditional Theravadins who have always carefully accepted and preserved the Abhidhamma Pitaka and commentaries, the entire Pali canon until it was closed after the first few Councils. As I.B. >>> 7th Book was authored by Moggaliputta Tissa Thera at 3rd council. Theravada as we know it is MUCH later then the first council. After all, Buddhaghosa and commentaries such as AA are later. Horner wrote: > S: In other words, it is the 'radical Theravadins' who wish to chop out original texts accepted at these early Councils and add modern > interpretations of those left intact. AP certainly wasn't accepted by Early Sutrantikas. Sarvastivadins had a different AP than Theravada. > ... > > You are putting too much emphasis on literal study which simply DID > > NOT EXIST IN PEASANT SOCIETY OF THOSE TIMES. It seems very unlikely > > that most of the monks knew more than 10-20 AT BEST suttas. Also, > > Sariputta learned only a single paragraph from Assaji (?) before > > joining Buddha. Then it seems that he learned a sutta which helped > > him to achieve Cessation + Arahatship. Of course he probably also > > heard the meditation instructions (so 3 suttas total, where > > one "sutta" was very short one) > .... > S: Again, you are mistaken here. In this 'peasant society' as you refer to it, people were highly sophisticated, skilled and had attained the highest jhanas. >>> Sophistication & attainment of Jhana are not always compatible. Some people like to speculate too much rather than practice. Some members here keep denying the value of formal meditation. Jhana's are the easiest for unsophisticated farmers who don't have TV sets, dvds, radios, business, tax laws to follow and to find loops to exploit (legally), etc. >> They came from all walks of life, including royalty and the great > warrior castes. >>> a) How much % of Indian population were royalty (highest 2 castes)? A minority. b) How many people were illiterate. A lot, except from Brahmins and Ksatriyas. c) Sometimes book learning CAN be an obstacle. >>> Many were 'ripe' for enlightenment, having developed the > paramis over incalculable aeons. It was no coincidence at all that they were born at this time. >>> Paramis are later (proto) Mahayana addon. Please tell me where 10 paramis are mentioned and explain in the 4 NIKAYAS. > > At the First Council, the teachings were recited perfectly. There is no > question of these arahants only having heard a few suttas. Many did hear only little b4 arahantship. Considering that many people achieved Arahatship in a week or 2 - obviously they couldn't hear a lot.... >>>>>>>> Of course, when > Sariputta heard a single paragraph, this was enough for him to become enlightened. Not for us!! >>>> Those who developed a lot of Jhana could. :) > Thanks for the good discussions. Will speak after Xmas. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > You too. I'll speak later. I'll be missing for a while. Lots of Metta, Alex #80497 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sutta vs Abhidhamma truth_aerator Re: Councils, Schisms, Theravada, AP Here is a brief cliff notes. - It is wrong to say that the first schism caused the 2nd Buddhist council to happen. Even during Buddha's time, there was ALREADY a schism done by Devadatta. -Not all monks living with the Buddha were orthodox/buddhist monks. Fisherman Sati for example thought that it is the same Citta that passes on. There were many monks with wrong views: Arittha, Devadatta, Yamaka, Malyunkaputta (the one who kept asking 10 indeterminates and threatened to leave) etc etc. These monks (who didn't disrobe and perhaps kept quite) could have been considered to be "Elders" . So whenever someone claims that Elder said so and so, I wonder WHICH ELDER WAS IT? - Also "Theravada" (especially if it is the one that follows Vissudhi Magga, etc) is not the earliest school. It is at least ~240 BC. Prior to Classic Theravada: Sthaviravâda Pudgalavâda ('Personalist') (c. 280 BCE) Sarvâstivâda Vibhajjavâda (prior to 240 BCE; during Aúoka) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_Buddhism#Nikaya_schools Theravada Origin of the school The Theravâda school is ultimately derived from the Vibhajjavâda grouping[2] which emerged amongst the older Sthavira group at the time of the Third Buddhist Council (circa 250 BCE), during the reign of Emperor Asoka in India. After the Third Council, the Vibhajjavâdins gradually evolve into four groups: the Mahîúâsaka, Kâúyapîya, Dharmaguptaka and the Tâmraparnîya. Theravada is descended from the Tâmraparnîya, which means 'the Sri Lankan lineage'. On the other hand, some sources claimed that Mahîúâsaka, Kâúyapîya and Dharmaguptaka did not evolve directly from Vibhajjavâdins. The name of Tamraparniya was given to the Sri Lankan lineage in India, and there is no indication that this referred to any change in doctrine or scripture, since the name points only to geographical location. The Theravadin accounts of its origins mention that it received the teachings that were agreed upon during the Third Buddhist Council, and these teachings were known as the Vibhajjavada. Vibhajjavadins see themselves as the continuation of orthodox Sthaviras [alex: Obviously each schools claims to the be best, the earliest, the most original] and after the Third Council continued to refer to their school as the Sthaviras/Theras ('The Elders'), although their doctrines is probably similar [alex: note PROBABLY. Not exact] with the older Sthaviras but it is likely not identical. In the 7th century, Chinese pilgrims Xuanzang and Yi Jing refer to the Buddhist school in Sri Lanka as `Sthavira'[3][4]. In ancient India, those schools that use Sanskrit as their religious language will refer to this school as the 'Sthaviras', but those that use Pali as their religious language will refer to this school as the 'Theras'. Sthaviras (Sanskrit) and Theras (Pali) both literally mean 'The Elders'. The school used the name Theravada for itself at least from the fourth century.[5] The Pali Tipitaka consists of three parts: the Vinaya Pitaka, Sutta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka. Of these, the Abhidhamma Pitaka is believed to be a later addition [alex: NO KIDDING!] to the first two pitakas, which, in the opinion of many scholars [alex: do you accept historical facts or tradition. Where is Kalama sutta?], were the only two pitakas at the time of the First Buddhist Council. The Pali Abhidhamma was not recognized outside the Theravada school [alex: for obvious reasons. The suttas and Vinaya is. But not so with AP]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada Regarding Sramans and Debates: What generally happened was that any school was supposed to be able to debate its views. India was very big on philosophical debates. This can be witnessed in the number of suttas where some debater came to the Buddha to debate positions with him. Originally Buddhism was more of an ethical/meditative teaching. With the passing away of the Buddha and his main disciples we were left with disciples of lesser attainments. Some of them were of course unable to resist Mara's bonds of sensuality (toward Intellect). The urge to KNOW and to intellectually grasp is great you know. I am fighting it, as it steals some time off the cushion. Getting back about debates. To get disciples and perhaps support of the kings, a teacher would need to win in the debates, to refute the competitors view point. Obviously this would require more than phenomenology or practical instructions. So due to intellectual graspings, and the philosophical scene, early Buddhists started to create various scholastic treatise. It is interesting that in Aganna Sutta (DN) Buddha has said something about downfall of Brahmins where at first they meditated, but then the couldn't so they started writing books... And after philosophical treatease were written, then there were even more grounds for schisms as later Buddhists started to see flaws in earlier writings. Also it is important to understand that often in ancient times the rights to a territory was based on who was there first. It could be possible that some scholastic works would be attributed to great sages living long ago thus giving extra "authority", plus ridiculous threats to anyone who opposes it. It seems that the more shaky the historical foundations, the more threats of Hell are made... Also, lets remember that there are two sides to every schism. Obviously each sect would want to claim its authenticity. Just because some have died out, it doesn't mean that they were all wrong in all regards. I reserve the right to be more correct in the future. Metta, Alex #80498 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:04 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy kenhowardau Hi James, ----- KH: > > I understand the present reality well enough to know that it is > > devoid of self. There is no entity that will persist from the > > present, unenlightened, state to a future, enlightened, state. With > > that understanding, I cannot possibly be interested in "trying" > > or "striving" for enlightenment, can I? It wouldn't make sense. J:> It wouldn't make sense not to: > > "I exhort you, monks: All fabrications are subject to decay. Bring > about completion by being heedful." Those were the Tathagata's last > words. ------ Here we go again! :-) According to the usual routine I should now tell you how the Dhamma teaches 'a profoundly new and different way of knowing the world - blah, blah, blah.' I don't mind the routine at all. In fact I love it. It makes me consider things I might otherwise have presumed I already knew. But I wonder if we could try something different this time. I suggested it to Phil recently but he wasn't interested, and you probably won't be either. I asked him to write the reply that he might have expected to receive from one of DSG's "no-controllers." I believed Phil had progressed past the stage of thinking that no-control meant we should "do nothing" and "fall in a heap on the floor" etc. So I wanted to know just how accurately he understood the point of view he was rejecting. I would love to know if *any* of DSG's meditators understand the non- meditators' side of the story. I suspect they don't. Perhaps this is going sound idealistic, or even fanatical, but I suspect that anyone who understands the no-control point of view - even just in theory - will be automatically convinced by it. Ken H #80499 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:11 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "Yes, I agree. Panna in Jhana is CRUCIAL. Furthermore thank you for pasting those paragraphs showing that Jhana (Buddhist Ecstasy) and Insight are inseparable." Scott: I don't think this is correct. Pa~n~naa is not crucial for jhaana. It is 'crucial', I would think, along with sati, in recognising the jhaana factors. Also, jhaana is not 'Buddhist Ecstasy'. I believe that 'ecstasy' would be piiti (piiti being one of the jhaana factors), and piiti can be either kusala or akusala depending on the citta with which it arises; it is not limited to jhaana. It is imprecise to say that jhaana is Buddhist Ecstasy. Concentration and Insight are 'inseparable', at least that is how I see it. A: "...Furthermore, even in AN 9.36 the 5 aggregates are mentioned WHILE in the Jhana." Scott: Well, this isn't surprising since these don't stop arising and falling away just because of jhaana, do they? The various jhaana factors are part of 'the five aggregates'. A: "Sati & Panna, for example." Scott: And so you see, jhaana or no jhaana, it is sati and pa~n~naa which perform the crucial functions leading to enlightenment vis-a-vis any state (dhamma). Just because those whose accumulations allowed for the attainment of jhaana, this was of no use unless 'understood'. A: "happy holidays" Scott: Thanks, same to you. Sincerely, Scott. #80500 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:58 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply: > > A: "Yes, I agree. Panna in Jhana is CRUCIAL. Furthermore thank you > for pasting those paragraphs showing that Jhana (Buddhist Ecstasy) and > Insight are inseparable." > > Scott: I don't think this is correct. Pa~n~naa is not crucial for > jhaana. >> For non-Buddhist Jhana then maybe Panna isn't nessesery to any great extent (you do however need atleast SOME wisdom to do it rather than indulge in sensuality). But for a Buddhist following the N8P IT IS IMPORTANT. It is 'crucial', I would think, along with sati, in > recognising the jhaana factors. Also, jhaana is not 'Buddhist > Ecstasy'. I believe that 'ecstasy' would be piiti (piiti being one of the jhaana factors), and piiti can be either kusala or akusala > depending on the citta with which it arises; it is not limited to > jhaana. It is imprecise to say that jhaana is Buddhist Ecstasy. >>> Considering that Jhana is pleasurable, steady burning, etc - we can call it a proper Buddhist Ecstasy. > Concentration and Insight are 'inseparable', at least that is how I > see it. > > A: "...Furthermore, even in AN 9.36 the 5 aggregates are mentioned > WHILE in the Jhana." > > Scott: Well, this isn't surprising since these don't stop arising and > falling away just because of jhaana, do they? The various jhaana > factors are part of 'the five aggregates'. >>> What I meant to say was that they ARE examinable while in Jhana. In the suttas you won't find "No perception or volition exists during Jhana, so please come out of it first to review it!". > A: "Sati & Panna, for example." > > Scott: And so you see, jhaana or no jhaana, it is sati and pa~n~naa > which perform the crucial functions leading to enlightenment vis-a- vis any state (dhamma). Just because those whose accumulations allowed for the attainment of jhaana, this was of no use unless 'understood'. >>> Metta is the highest merit. So all merit seekers and all those who lack merit - DO IT PLEASE! 5. From the Itivuttaka, Sutta 27 (spoken by the Buddha) Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the heart-deliverance of loving-kindness; in shining and beaming and radiance the heart-deliverance of loving- kindness far excels them. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel007.html 8. From the Anguttara Nikaya, 1:53-55, 386 (spoken by the Buddha) Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu cultivates loving-kindness for as long as a fingersnap, he is called a bhikkhu. He is not destitute of jhana meditation, he carries out the Master's teaching, he responds to advice, and he does not eat the country's alms food in vain. So what should be said of those who make much of it? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel007.html Lots of Metta, Alex #80501 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:51 am Subject: RE: [dsg] From Two Suttas: The Imperturbable Nature of an Arahant dacostacharles Merry Christmas Colette, The cycles of suffering are maintained when political expediency is placed above morality and the use of craft and deceit to maintain the authority and carry out the policies of a ruler is the order of the day; and even if that ruler is just a concept. To be a I like your hypothesis. So why not have more fun. The world is waiting for you! Charles DaCosta _____ Hi Charles, Happy Holidays to you and all others! I've had a splendid holiday, alone, banned from being with others upstairs and from partaking of the holiday by their own words, orders, to me as a paying tenant since I practice esoteric beliefs et al. Forgetfulness, a condition of mind, no? <...> #80502 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:48 pm Subject: Breaking the Bonds! bhikkhu0 Friends: Believing in EGO Bonds interlocks the Clusters of Clinging: At Savatthi the blessed Buddha once said: Herein, friends, the untaught ordinary people, who cannot recognize those who are Noble, who are unskilled in the Teaching of the Nobles, who cannot recognize those who are Worthy, who are untrained in the Worthy teachings, regard body as the self, or regard the self as having a body, or regard the body as being inside the self, or regard the self as being inside the body ... [False: "my body (frame or form) is" therefore "I am"] .. !!! [True: Yes there exists a body form, but there exists no “Iâ€?!!!] Such one is called one of the untaught ordinary people, one fettered by the bonds of body, one bound to the inner and the outer, one who have not sighted the further shore, one who have not sighted the beyond, one who is born bound, who dies bound, one who from this world goes to the next world beyond. [again and again whether pleasant or painful…] Such poor friend may also regard feeling as the self, or regard the self as having feeling, or regard feeling as being inside the self, or regard the self as being inside feeling ... [False: "I feel" therefore "I am"… A case of EGO-projection…] [True: Yes there exists momentary feeling, but there exists no “Iâ€?…] Such one is called one of the untaught ordinary people, one fettered by the bonds of feeling, one bound to the concepts of the internal and the external, one who have not sighted the further shore, one who have not sighted the beyond, one who is born mentally bound, and who dies mentally bound, one who from this world goes to the world beyond. [yet again] Such poor friend may also regard perception as the self, or regard the self as having perception, [Someone (an entity) perceives…] or regard the perception as being inside the self, or regard the self as being inside perception ... [False: "I am" a summation of my experiences] [True: Yes there exists momentary perception, but there exists no “Iâ€?!!!] Such one is called one of the untaught ordinary people, one fettered by the bonds to perception, one bound to the notions of ‘the inner is own’ and ‘the outer is other’, one who have not sighted the further shore, one who have not sighted the beyond, one who is born bound, who dies tied up to & by the clusters of clinging, one who from this world goes to the world beyond. [monotonically] Such poor friend may also regard Mental Constructions as the self, or regard the self as having, possessing, or owning Mental Constructions, or regard the Mental Constructions as being inside the self, or regard the self as being inside the Mental Constructions ... [False: "I am" my ideas or "my personality" is characterized by my ideas…] [True: There are ideas but no fixed personality inside or outside these ideas!] Such one is called one of the untaught ordinary people, one fettered by the bonds of Mental Constructions, one bound to the duality of the inner and the outer, one who have not sighted the further shore, one who have not sighted the beyond, one who is born bound, and who dies bound, chained & constrained by ideas.. one who from this world goes to the world beyond. [endlessly ...]s Such poor friend may regard consciousness as the self, or regard the self as having a consciousness, or regard the consciousness as being inside the self, or regard the self as being inside the consciousness ... [False: I am being aware therefore "I am", "I exists", "an Ego is real",] [True: There is the state of Awareness, but no I, self or ego who is aware] [There is indeed a filming camera, yet no-one that hold it or push the trigger!] Such one is called one of the untaught ordinary people, one fettered by the bonds of consciousness, one bound to the inner and the outer, one who have not sighted the further shore, one who have not sighted the beyond, one who is born bound, who dies bound, one who from this world goes to the world beyond. [quite boring ...] But, friends, the well-taught Noble disciple, who indeed recognizes those who are Noble, who is skilled in the Teaching of the Nobles, who indeed recognizes those who are Worthy, who is trained in the Worthy teachings, Such Noble One does not imagine Body as being a Self, neither does such Noble Friend regard this imagined Self as having a Body, nor does such Noble Friend regard the Body as being inside any Self, nor does such Noble Friend regard such faked Self as being inside the Body ... This one, friends, is called a well-taught friend, not fettered by the bounds of body, nor bound to the inner nor the outer, one who has sighted the further shore, one who has sighted the beyond. I tell you: Released is such Noble friend, from suffering. Such Noble Friend does neither regard Feeling as beings the Self, nor does he regard Perception as the Self, nor does he regard Mental Constructions as the Self, nor does he regard Consciousness as the Self ... Such one, friends is called A Well-Taught Friend, not regarding consciousness or any other quality or state as a self, not fettered by the bounds of consciousness or any other quality or state, nor bound to the inner nor the outer, one who has indeed sighted the further shore, one who has assuredly sighted the beyond. Released is such Noble friend, I declare, from all suffering ... !!! --- That is unbounded, Yeah. Breaking the mental bonds! Go for it, reach for it, keep on keeping on, on the way to it! Attain it, since only that is real freedom ... Source: Samyutta Nikaya on the Clusters of Clinging Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #80503 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:09 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Here we go again! :-) According to the usual routine I should now > tell you how the Dhamma teaches 'a profoundly new and different way > of knowing the world - blah, blah, blah.' Oh brother, there is nothing "new and profoundly different" about what KS teaches. It is just re-worked Zen Buddhism. Some Zen practitioners, who don't really understand Zen, have been talking about "no control" for centuries. You really think KS is something special or unique?? I read something the other day which might shed light on this issue: "When I told my teachers I was disappointed that zazen didn't make me feel bettter, they scolded me. "You don't sit zazen to get something. You sit zazen in order to sit zazen. If you want zazen to make you happy, it won't work." But I wasn't even asking to be happy, I was asking to be less miserable. I was hoping for some peace of mind. And didn't Buddha invent Buddhism in the first place to alleviate suffering? Did all those other people in the zendo really get up out of bed at 5 a.m. for no particular reason?" The same thing could be asked of the followers of KS: Do they study the texts, memorize Pali, listen to Dhamma lectures on I-pod, post incessantly on DSG, take trips to Bangkok, etc. etc., etc. for no particular reason? No, they do it for the same reason that us meditators meditate: to alleviate suffering. Metta, James #80504 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:43 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy kenhowardau Hi James, ---- > Oh brother, there is nothing "new and profoundly different" about what > KS teaches. It is just re-worked Zen Buddhism. <. . .> ---- So I was right; you have no idea of what K Sujin is talking about. That's a pity. But, really, it's nothing to be upset about. Mere dhammas arise and fall away. Sometimes those dhammas will give the impression of a sentient being (something other than a mere dhamma) who has right understanding. Sometimes they will give the impression of a sentient being who has wrong understanding. In any case (whether you are right or whether KS is right) there are never really any sentient beings at all - there are only dhammas. "Mere suffering exists; No sufferer is found."(Vis.) Ken H #80505 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:29 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > So I was right; you have no idea of what K Sujin is talking about. > That's a pity. James: Don't be condescending. I know what she is talking about- I just don't agree. > > But, really, it's nothing to be upset about. Mere dhammas arise and > fall away. Sometimes those dhammas will give the impression of a > sentient being (something other than a mere dhamma) who has right > understanding. Sometimes they will give the impression of a sentient > being who has wrong understanding. In any case (whether you are right > or whether KS is right) there are never really any sentient beings at > all - there are only dhammas. "Mere suffering exists; No sufferer is > found."(Vis.) James: Let's look at that entire quote from the Vism: Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; Nirvana is, but not the man that enters it; The path is, but no traveller on it is seen. It seems to me that the followers of KS just absolutely LOVE this quote! But, with most everything, they have tunnel vision. They only focus on what they want to read. They see this quote as saying: no sufferer, no doer, no man, no traveller...and that's it. But, they miss the other part of this quote: There is suffering! There are deeds (actions)! There is Nirvana! There is a path to travel! So, pretending that suffering doesn't exist, that deeds and actions don't exist, that nirvana isn't important, and that the path is but a single moment rather than a journey to travel, they entirely miss the point of this quote from the Vism. Metta, James #80506 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:47 am Subject: for Alex/re:absorption consentration... reverendagga... Hi Alex! It does not surprise me that when you quote me you you do it incompleatly and twist the context of what was said.You wrote "you cant really have insight in a blind,deaf, cognitionless trance" implying that this described jhana meditation. Your statement regarding the nimitta and under what condition it can occur and how it should be regarded etc...only once again,reveals your utter ignorance of the subject! It therefore is once again clear that you have no experience with what you insist on talking about with such a determined point of view! At this point please recall the "money cant buy you happiness" analogy! i dont need to be telepathic! i sincerly wish your PRACTICE?the VERY best! May the Buddhas,Deva and Angels bless ALL of you! bhikkhu aggacitto/aka reverend aggacitto #80507 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:09 am Subject: Fwd: The articles (1) sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- "Ven Pannabahulo (Phra Alan)" wrote: Dear Sarah, Let me take this second opportunity to wish you and Jonathon a very happy New Year. I finished my article today and have attached it as a word document to this e-mail. The article featuring an interview with my Burmese teacher, Sayadaw U Tejiniya, has been taken off the Tricycle website now that the magazine is available for distribution. For this reason I cannot provide a link to it. What I have done, therefore,is to attach it to this e-mail. I think it would be of great value for DSG members to be able to read it along with my article. I hope you will make this possible. When you have posted it on the DSG site, please e-mail the relevant links to me: That way I can follow any reposes I might get. I am sorry that it has taken me so long to sit up and write it. With metta and every blessing, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu May you be well,happy and peaceful. (Phra Alan Cooper) Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #80508 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:16 am Subject: Letter_from_Pannabahulo (1) sarahprocter... Dear Dhamma friends, I hope you are all well and at peace. I wish all of you a very happy New Year. I am sorry for my delay in writing this letter but, since returning from Myanmar I have moved temples and then suffered from a lengthy leg infection which made it painful for me to sit at the computer for any length of time. I have been asked to share my experiences by both Nina and Sarah. I am very thankful for this opportunity of sharing the Dhamma with you and the merit I have gained from doing so. I dedicate that merit to Ajan Sujin and all DSG members. I went to Myanmar to practice meditation under the guidance of Sayadaw U Tejiniya at Shwe Oo Min Dhammasukkha Forest Centre, Yangon. I spent three and a half months there which included the Vassa (Rains retreat). Sayadaw teaches Satipatthana but with an emphasis on Cittanupassana (Observation of the mind). Like his late teacher, Shwe Oo Min Sayadaw, he says that meditation is mind work and so it is important to give predominance to the mind. He teaches that meditation practice is only possible if the mind and body is completely relaxed and that trying to force anything – concentration included – is lobha. He stresses that in order for Vipassana insight to arise the mind must be free from lobha, dosa and moha. Whatever phenomena arises one must just simply be aware; if there is lobha or dosa towards what arises, then one should simply be aware of that. External objects are of no importance; what matters is the minds reaction to them. He says that meditation is not to be found in the posture one adopts, but we must be mindful of the mental states whatever we are doing. He says that it takes no more effort to be aware of the mind than it does to know that one is sitting, standing and so on. All that arises is merely natural phenomena; and of course it is anatta. (to be contd) #80509 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:19 am Subject: Letter_from_Pannabahulo (2) sarahprocter... As most yogis have previously practiced with meditation ‘systems’ like those taught by Goenka Ji and the late Mahasi Sayadaw, there is a lot of ‘unlearning’ to be done. Practicing in a natural, relaxed way is like having to start all over again. He instructs meditators not to label – that obscures detail and tires the meditator. He tells yogis to switch to Anapana-sati or contemplation of vedana when strong mind states and emotions disturb the mind. When the mind is calm he tells us to return to observing the mind. He also stresses that bare awareness is not enough. We need to use dhamma vicaya – our own wisdom – to find out why mental states arise and how best we can deal with unpleasant and painful ones. In my case depression was the problem. Sayadaw also suffered from terrible depression earlier in his life. Using his own wisdom, and following his teacher’s instructions, he was able to overcome this condition. Ven Sayadaw U Tejiniya laughs a lot; he also keeps Pali terms down to an absolute minimum. He is able to hone in on the individual and give specific individual advice. In my case he told me not to think of it as meditation. He told me to build up my mindfulness but to keep checking my attitude. Attitude is all important to ‘Right view’. If we try to force conditions, have expectations, or want to change things – then we can never see things as they are and so no vipassana insight can arise. In the current edition of the American Buddhist magazine ‘Tricycle’ there is a very good interview with Sayadaw U Tejiniya. This interview was available on-line, but was removed when the current magazine edition was released. I have attached a copy of that interview with this article; but I lack the technological know how to make it available to all of you. (Perhaps someone can help me here). When I went to Myanmar I took several of the DSG discussions with Ajan Sujin that I had on CDs. These were recorded on various trips to India and in Bangkok. What I heard really shook me. I found that most of these Dhamma discussions were not really discussions at all; they were constant requests for explanation and clarification of terminology. And most of the group remained silent throughout. This came in sharp contrast to the lively discussions and interviews I experienced with practicing yogis – and my teacher - at Shwe Oo Min. Ajan Sujin does not share this ‘terminological’ perception of Dhamma. Her approach is very practical. Her constant response to such questions is “Yes, but what about NOW?” She also states that a lot of the terms that people needed clarification on referred to phenomena that it is impossible for us to know; only a Buddha can experience that sort of thing. So why waste time asking questions that cannot be helpful to us in order that we can free ourselves from Samsara? The Lord Buddha taught the truth of suffering, its cause, its cessation and the path leading to cessation. There is also the analogy with the ‘handful of leaves’. To my understanding, theory (Pariyatti) and practice (Patipatti) must develop together. The theory is the map of the journey; the practice is the actual journey. If we plan a long journey it is no good studying the whole route in detail beforehand. We could never remember all the details and we’d just get hopelessly lost. We study the map bit by bit as we proceed; we go so far, get a bit lost and then consult the map. We check the map from time to time to make sure we are on course. Never do we try to memorise the whole map on a long journey. The path to enlightenment is a very long journey. We must also remember that the main reason given for the decline of the Dhamma in India – and a major cause of the Theravada / Mahayana split – is usually explained as being due to the fact that Dhamma practice had fallen away into mere academic study. On his deathbed the Lord Buddha said that the Dhamma-vinaya will “Be your teacher after I am gone”. Vinaya just doesn’t mean the rules for monks and nuns; it means the practice of Dhamma. If we look at the stories that surrounded the forming of the vinaya in the Vinaya Pitaka, we get a very clear picture of how a Dhamma practitioner should behave in word, action and livelihood. The Lord Buddha did not teach ‘Buddhism’ he taught Dhamma – vinaya! I will give one example that came across very clearly from one of the CDs recorded in India. I had been practicing at Shwe Oo Min for several weeks when I suddenly observed, for myself, that it was lobha that was causing dosa to arise in me. I have always thought of myself as a dosa person (The predominant defilements being anger and depression). Now I saw that those conditions arose because I wanted reality to be other than it was. Later I learnt that, in turn, that dosa causes lobha. We want something other than things as they are; then anger or aversion arises which makes us feel miserable; so then we desire some kind of sensual stimulus to make us feel better. (The whole ‘entertainment’ business thrives because of this). I learnt this for myself by direct observation of the mind. Lobha, dosa, lobha, dosa ad infinitum. But on one CD it is said that “We know that dosa is caused by Lobha.” But this is academic learning and is not anywhere near as powerful as the direct experience of it. In fact, it completely misses the second part of the equation in that dosa is also a precondition of lobha. References to mediation as “That ‘M’ word” miss the essence of the Buddha’s teaching. It needs to be clearly understood exactly what is a useful form of meditation which will lead to purification of mind. As the Ven Sayadaw says, sitting for hours on a cushion whilst the mind is filled with lobha is a complete waste of time. But being aware of one’s attitude and of the contents of the mind is absolutely necessary for progress on the path. Sayadaw U Tejaniya constantly told me that I must use my own intelligence to deal with my own problems. This is why the Buddha stressed in his final words that we must work out our own salvation for ourselves. The Lord Buddha’s wisdom enlightened him and him only. By following his guidance so many since have become fully enlightened. He gave mediation subjects suitable for the temperament and disposition of individuals; but he taught Anapana-sati and Satipatthana for all. Ajan Sujin IS extremely mindful. I see tremendous similarities between what she is teaching and the teachings of Sayadaw U Tejiniya. My experience in Myanmar has given me a great sense of ‘Samvega’. By seeing the state of the mind I carry there is a real feeling of urgency; I am inspired to keep on working for it’s purification. If we concentrate only on the terminology of the Buddha’s teaching we are in the field of linguistics or even mere history. The essential thing is how best to apply the teachings so as to improve the quality of our minds. Finally, no one really knows what language(s) and/or dialects the Buddha actually spoke. The word ‘Pali’ means ‘text’ so he certainly never spoke Pali. It is widely assumed that he spoke a language that is similar to Pali; but we just don’t know. In the Cullavaga of the Vinaya Pitaka there is an interesting story. Two monks, who are of the Bhramin caste, approach the Lord Buddha and complain that many of his disciples are teaching in the local languages/dialects of the people. They say that the Lord Buddha’s Dhamma is so beautiful that it should only be expressed in the literary Sanskrit of the Vedas. The Lord Buddha rebuked them; he said that the Dhamma should be taught in the language of the people. He then made it an offence against the Vinaya for a monk to teach Dhamma in literary Sanskrit. Can we not learn something from this?? I hope that this is helpful to DSG members; I am full of admiration for the way Ajan Sujin so patiently answers those terminological questions and for the way DSG members are so attentive to what is going on. But we must remember that it is the practice of the Dhamma that is of utmost importance. These are my thoughts and my conclusions. I will be happy to learn what other members of DSG think and feel. May you all be well, happy and peaceful. With metta, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #80510 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:23 am Subject: sayadaw_U_Tejaniya (1) sarahprocter... F/W by Ven Pannabahulo Dhamma Friends, "To develop wisdom, we don't have to be sitting." Sayadaw U Tejaniya © Libby Vigeon The Wise Investigator October 31, 2007 ________________________________________ Sayadaw U Tejaniya began his Buddhist training as a young teenager in Burma under the late Shwe Oo Min Sayadaw (1913–2002). After a career in business and life as a householder, he ordained as a monk some ten years ago. He teaches meditation at Shwe Oo Min Dhammasukha Tawya in Rangoon, Burma. In June, I caught up with U Tejaniya at the Insight Meditation Society's Forest Refuge, in Barre, Massachusetts, where he was about to lead a three-day retreat at the nearby Barre Center for Buddhist Studies. U Tejaniya's relaxed demeanor and easy sense of humor belie a commitment to awareness that he encourages his students to apply in every aspect of their daily lives, and his earlier role as a householder gives him a rare insight into the challenges faced by his lay students. U Tejaniya's delightfully illustrated book, Don't Look Down on the Defilements, They Will Laugh at You , aptly characterizes his teaching style—accessible and true to the traditional teachings of the Buddha. —James Shaheen, Editor Can you say something about the title of your book, Don't Look Down on the Defilements, They Will Laugh at You? I never intended to write a book. One of my yogis had taken a lot of notes during interviews and wanted to make them available to others. Those notes were then edited and expanded by me and some other yogis. We picked the title because it is important not to underestimate the power of the defilements. When I teach meditation I emphasize the importance of watching the mind. While doing this you will see a lot of defilements. In their grosser manifestations, the defilements are anger, greed, and delusion. And they have plenty of friends and relatives, who often show up as the five hindrances: desire, aversion, torpor, restlessness, and doubt. I advise yogis to get to know and investigate the defilements, because only through understanding them can we learn to handle them and eventually become free of them. If we ignore them, the joke's on us: they'll always get the better of us. If they cause us so much grief, why do we ignore them? People often become attached to what they're good at, to what they've achieved; they only want to see their good sides. Therefore they often don't acknowledge their weaknesses. They become proud and conceited because they don't see their negative sides. But if you cannot see both sides, the good and the bad, you can't say the picture is complete. If you do not observe the defilements wisdom cannot grow. #80511 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:26 am Subject: sayadaw_U_Tejaniya (2) sarahprocter... F/W by Ven Pannabahulo ........................ Is wisdom an absence of defilements? Yes, when there is right understanding there won't be any defilements. They are opposites; non-delusion is wisdom. Wisdom inclines toward the good but is not attached to it. It shies away from what is not good, but has no aversion to it. Wisdom recognizes the difference between skillful and unskillful, and it sees the undesirability of the unskillful. You seem to emphasize practicing mindfulness in everyday life as opposed to sitting meditation. Can you say something about that? This is basically what the Buddha wanted, for people to practice all the time. I'm just advertising the Buddha's words. Sitting meditation can still be part of the practice. I emphasize mindfulness in daily life because people neglect that so much, and it's a very helpful, valid practice—especially when there's not that much time to sit. What role, then, does sitting meditation play? I often say that it's not the posture that's meditating; it's the mind. That's how I understand meditation. How do you define meditation? It's cultivating good qualities in the mind. It's making conditions right so good qualities can arise. If, while sitting, you're dreaming up things the mind can feel greedy about, I don't call that meditation. That's why I say that the mind working to do the meditation is more important than the posture. But people associate the word "meditation" with "sitting." The two words have become synonymous, but this is a mistake. There are two kinds of meditation. In samatha [calm abiding], you need to sit and be still. My emphasis is Vipassana [insight meditation]. For Vipassana practice, sitting is not necessary. The purpose of practicing Vipassana is to cultivate wisdom. To what end? We cultivate wisdom to understand, to see clearly, to know. You don't remove the defilements; wisdom does. #80512 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:28 am Subject: sayadaw_U_Tejaniya (3) sarahprocter... F/W by Ven Pannabahulo ........................ You had a very full life as a layperson. Why did you become a monk? What motivated you? I chose to because I can practice full-time as a monk. As a layperson, we can't do this full-time? After all, you say we can practice in any situation. You can; it depends on the individual. It's a little different, and you have to give it a lot of time. Is it easier as a monk to practice full-time? (laughs) Actually, I can’t say being a monk makes it easier to meditate. Being able to meditate has nothing to do with being a monk or a layperson. I chose to ordain because I wanted to become a monk. Becoming a monk did not do anthing to help my practice, nor was being a layperson detrimental to my practice. What can you do as a monk that you couldn't do as a layperson? I get many opportunities to share my knowledge of dhamma and meditation. [Laughs.] I meet a lot more people! You became a monk because you felt an obligation to teach? I had no intention to teach; I had no idea I would. But then my teacher told me to teach, so I did. So you're a monk because you wanted to become a monk, no other reason. Yes. Exactly. You've spoken often of the depression you experienced as a layperson, and how you got through it. Can you say something about that? I began practicing at age fourteen, so long before I experienced depression I'd already developed the ability to regard anything that came up in my mind and deal with it objectively, without getting involved or taking it personally when ugly stuff came up. When I became depressed I could apply all these skills. I've been depressed three times. The first time I made a strong effort, just snapped myself out of it. And the second time, too. But each time the depression came back, and each time it came back stronger. The first two times I overcame depression, my recovery didn't last long. I know now that the first two times I'd used effort but no wisdom, no understanding. During the last depression, I had no energy left in me to make the effort. Depression followed me everywhere. What did you do? The key for me in dealing with my depression was right attitude. I realized I'd have to use my wisdom to learn about it, understand it. How? By just recognizing the depression and being present with it. I would just recognize that this was nature, that this was just a quality of mind; it was not personal. I watched it continually to learn about it. Does it go away? Increase? What is the mind thinking? How do the thoughts affect feelings? I became interested. #80513 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:29 am Subject: sayadaw_U_Tejaniya (4) sarahprocter... F/W by Ven Pannabahulo ........................ You often use the word "interest" to describe this attitude of investigation. Why? I saw that when I'd do the work with interest, my investigation would bring some relief. Before that I'd been at the depression's mercy, but I learned I could actually do something. I was choosing to be proactive, to find out about depression, and then it lightened. Was it acceptance that changed it? That was the main thing, complete acceptance. I saw I was helpless to do anything, so I just let it be there. But I could examine it, do something with myself. I couldn't do anything to it, but I could investigate it and come to know it. Why do you think "interest" was successful while "effort" ultimately failed? With interest and investigation there's wisdom. Effort alone, without wisdom—the way people generally understand it—is associated with strained activity because it is usually motivated by greed, aversion, and delusion. Effort with wisdom is a healthy desire to know and understand whatever arises, without any preference for the outcome. Are you using "interest" for right effort? Right effort is effort with wisdom. Because where there is wisdom, there is interest. The desire to know something is wisdom at work. Being mindful is not difficult. But it's difficult to be continuously aware. For that you need right effort. But it does not require a great deal of energy. It's relaxed perseverance in reminding yourself to be aware. When you are aware, wisdom unfolds naturally, and there is still more interest. And what is wrong effort? You have to look for yourself; someone on the outside can't tell you. You must recognize the mind that is using effort, and how it's using effort, and whether it is wasting energy with forced effort. When you try too hard, you squander your energy. If you're a serious practitioner, you cannot afford to do this. It's a lifetime practice, a marathon, not a sprint. You say that we can cultivate awareness in all our activities. Yet the challenge is great. Can you give a practice that is particularly suited to lay life, one you found useful as a businessman? For laypeople, speech is a great opportunity to practice. The four precepts of right speech [the precepts cautioning against false speech, malicious speech, harsh speech, and useless speech] gave a real boost to my awareness as a layperson and businessman. Since awareness and wisdom had to come into the picture whenever I spoke, I had to apply them all day. #80515 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:34 am Subject: sayadaw_U_Tejaniya (5) sarahprocter... F/W by Ven Pannabahulo Saying things you shouldn't say or speaking much more than is necessary brings a lot of agitation to the mind. The other extreme, complete silence, or not speaking up when it is useful or necessary, is also problematic. Applying right speech is difficult in the beginning; it takes practice. But if you practice every time you talk to someone, the mind will learn how to be aware, to understand what it should or should not say, and to know when it is necessary to talk. Of course you will make many mistakes. Every mistake is a learning opportunity that will teach you how to do better next time. You point out again and again that silence and sitting aren't the be-all and end-all of practice. Why? [Laughs.] It's when I began to really understand the nature of Vipassana that I began to say that. Very often we start with sitting, but we must remember what it's used for. We sit to calm the mind, but once it's calmer, we need to develop wisdom. To develop wisdom, we don't have to be sitting. I don't say people shouldn't sit, I don't want to eliminate sitting. But people begin to think, "I must sit." You don't have to. You also discourage the common technique in Vipassana practice of "labeling" thoughts as a means of identifying them and letting them go. Why? Labels are to explain things to other people. Do you need to explain them to yourself? The mind wanders¡ªcan't labeling bring you back to yourself? You don't have to use a conscious label. The mind knows what it's thinking, the mind has already recognized its thinking by the time you label it. And there's a risk. For example, if we label "pain, pain, pain," it can get worse because the mind knows the meaning of the words it uses. It can reinforce pain. The point is not to change states, just to know them as they are. I would also like to add that we say the mind "wanders," but in fact it doesn't go anywhere. Thoughts arise, that's all. The only problem is that we think they shouldn't! You're sitting in the middle of a retreat center that is devoted to silent sitting meditation. It's a little ironic. [Laughs.] If they have nothing else to do, then fine. There is nothing wrong with sitting and walking as long as you do it in the right way. But humor aside, different things work for different people. What would indicate we're practicing in the right way? When there is awareness, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom; when we feel light, alert, and awake. Over time, you find you're discovering that awareness becomes more firmly established and that the mind becomes steadier. You understand things you didn't before. If, however, you're getting tired, agitated, or depressed, you are practicing the wrong way. You always need to check the quality of mind; only if the quality is good are you practicing in the right way. This is how the quality of practice should be measured; not by posture or by the number of hours of sitting, walking, or standing meditation you do. Do you recommend intensive retreat? Yes, I do. It's like going to a training camp to prepare for a competition. So often, awareness fades quickly after an intensive retreat. If we practice correctly while on retreat, we won't lose it so easily. Also, if we have enough understanding about the practice we can maintain it longer. It does fade away for many of us. How do we maintain and deepen awareness after retreat? People have the wrong perspective with regard to objective. The objective of a retreat should be to learn how to use the mind in a way that we can continue to use it back at home and at the workplace. Retreat is like going to school. Can you be in school all your life? You've been teaching for ten years. You teach a lot of people from Asia and a few from Europe, and now a lot of Americans. Any particular challenges working with Americans? It's more interesting. Why? Because they think, and they are not believers. They have a natural curiosity. Westerners are taught to question. And this questioning leads to greater wisdom? Yes, because wisdom is investigation, the desire to know. Once there is interest in investigating, the mind is no longer involved in what is happening and takes an objective view. As soon as we have any vested interest in the results of our investigation, we can no longer see things as they are. Wanting to understand is wisdom, wanting a result is greed. But we need to have a goal. Is wanting to know motivation enough? Yes. And when wisdom grows, it leads you by the nose. You can't stop. That's why I like the atheists. There's hope for them. There is no need to believe anything. People become atheists because they think¡ªthey cannot believe, but they still want to know. In the beginning, just start with wanting to know. Everyone has some curiosity, some basic need to know. Just encourage that. A good education is motivating a person to want to know for himself. All the cramming and rote learning is never a good education. You won't get the best out of people that way. Their potential is stifled. Only people with an inner urge to learn will keep developing. In your book, the illustrator depicts the defilements as little mice, and, of course, they're laughing at us. How does humor play into our practice? Wisdom sees the joke in everything. Wisdom is never upset. When you see the truth, it's easy to laugh. You can be going through something really difficult, but when you really understand, you can laugh. People don't want to be sad; they want to laugh. Anything else? Stay interested. There is no reason for failure. If you don't practice at all, surely there's nothing to gain. But if you practice, you cannot fail. The moment you're doing it, you're already profiting. ¨‹ #80516 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:04 am Subject: For alex and EVERYBODY re/absorpsion concentration... reverendagga... Hi Alex! Sorry if that last posting seemed a bit corse...i believe i now know what MY misunderstanding was! When you made the comment "you cant have insight in a blind, deaf cognitionless trance"i thought that you were talking about jhana meditation because i associate concentration and jhana 2 be the same thing! D.N.#22 in its entirety to be compared with the 7th and 8th folds of the 8 fold noble path! You must think them to be different because when you have tried concentration meditation in the past it would seem as if it either gave you a headache or you drifted off into some sort of "blind,deaf, cognitionless trance"! This might very well be because nobody has taught you concentration meditation properly! You then seem to have pulled verses from other suttas in an attempt to make some sort of sense of your experience.i can understand you intuitively going this route.Falling into some sort of "blind, deaf, cognitionless" trance is actually a common experience for those not properly taught concentration meditation! If i might be so bold to suggest,against the advice of many who think that there are SECRETS to be kept,try working with a simple 2 sylable mantra , 1st sylable on the in breath 2nd sylable on the out breath.ALSO...regulate your breathing! keep it steady and slightly above normal pace.This will help you develop a RYTHEM to keep striking your mantra! At about the 35 min. mark you will experience what is called "the giggle reflex" IGNORE THIS DISTRACTION and keep striking your mantra. The waves of rapture will soon come. About every 5-10 min.and they will grow stronger and stronger until you achive jhana access! When you do just rember NOT to get caught up in analyzing your nimitta.This would be like taking the batteries out of a radio to put into a flashlight to watch the radio play! This will drop you out of jhana.and is a common mistake. You can will your self into the next jhana but take heed of Ven.Gotama's analogy of the cow who becomes lost by venturing onto ground with unsure footing.In 2nd jhana though,your nimitta will become more stable. It is thought that these instructions are not in the Pali Canon because it was either "common knowledge" for that time amongst those who studied this practice and as well because there have been those who became greedy and selfish between the oral tradition and the writing down of dhamma on palm leaves. i DO hope this information serves you and any one else who would like to utilize it. May the Buddha's, Deva and Angel's bless ALL of you! bhikkhu aggacitto/aka reverend aggacitto #80517 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:08 am Subject: Fwd: Re : Could you please help ? sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Friends, Some of you will remember Charles Pereira who used to occasionally write on DSG, (often under another name). He sent me the following a few days ago and I said I'd prefer to share it on DSG, so that others could share & comment as well. Sarah ======================= Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:45:05 +0000 (GMT) From: "Charles Perera" Dear Sarah, I am still in the process of writing the book I had once told you about. I have finished the text, though reading it again and again I seem to be endlessly correcting and adding to it. I should now prepare it to be sent to a publisher, and I have written an Introduction. I am sending it to you for you to read it and make any comments on it. Please bare with me for taking the liberty to intrude into your kindness and generosity. Pardon me if I am putting you into any unnecessary inconvenience. with metta Charles Perera ............... Introduction. I published a book on Mind, Matter and Meditation in Sinhala, and it had been well received by an attentive Buddhist Public, according to several letters and e-mail messages I have received. The present book contains the same subject matter, though it is not a direct translation of the other. I have ventured to present in this book, those aspects of the teachings of the Buddha, which may be useful to those who would like to meditate according to the teachings of the Buddha. The teachings of the Buddha is profound, and to have an intellectual understand of the mind and its working as explained by the Buddha, would need years of study, going into various discourses contained in the Tripitaka. However, a vast intellectual understanding of the Teachings is not necessarily a sine qua non for one who seeks to meditate. Nevertheless, as mind is the instrument, which has to be used in the adventure into the realm of meditation, an overview of what it is and how it works as explained by the Buddha would be of interest to a student of Buddhism whether he is a meditator or not.. Therefore, in writing this book I have put into it the knowledge I had the privilege to gather from my contact with experienced teachers of meditation, scholars, as well as through reading book by well known exponents of the teachings. At the beginning when as a young student, I was seeking to know more about the teachings of the Buddha, the books that I came across were too scholarly, and most often contained difficult reading matter, making it necessary to read a passage several times to get the meaning of it. The books written in a language more simple and explicit were difficult to get. Though the situation is different to-day, with many books on Buddhism appearing written in a more simple, readable language. However, in writing this book I had in mind my own experience and wrote this for those who would like to know about the teachings of the Buddha in a more acceptable form-simple and informative. This is written for both Buddhists and non- Buddhists, in an easily accessible format not necessarily to be read from the beginning to the end, but at random as a quick reference. It could be used as a hand book on Buddhism, as important details of the teachings have been carefully collected into it. It is perhaps the only book that brings together the information from the Abhidhamma, which is called the higher Buddhist teachings, and from the relevant discourses of the Buddha to describe the mind and its function to explain how a follower of the teachings could find freedom from the cycle of deaths and births, through meditation to attain Nibbana -the state of non-suffering. Numerous are the persons who contributed to my spiritual growth, beginning from my mother who was a pious devotee of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. My first experience in Meditation was at a week-end retreat under Venerable Piyadassi Thera and thereafter I was lead into the experience of Meditation by my friend Late Godwin Samararatne, and to deeper states of Meditation Experience under Venerable Late Walane Amata Gavesi thero, and teachers of meditation: Venerable Chandra Manio, Venerable Dhammadinna Manio and Venerable Khema Manio. I cannot fail to pay my deep respect to Mme Nina Van Gorkom, whose English translations from Abhidhamma aroused in me a deep respect for its the teachings. She has done an invaluable service to Buddhism by putting the teachings of Abhidhamma into simple clear English making them accessible to a large reading public. I have included much of what I have learnt from her books in to this. Any reader of this book who would like to see her excellent contributions to the teachings of Buddhism may go to: http://www.vipassana.info/ . to have access to her writings in the internet. The reader may find the Pali words I have included in the book too excessive. But Pali being the language in which the Buddha made his discourses more than 2550 years ago, a Pali word explains a Buddhist term, more than its English equivalent, and therefore those words of the Buddha have become an essential part of the teachings. I have included them within brackets and in italics by the side of an English word or a term, to enhance its meaning. I have not given an index as extended meanings of those Pali words could be found in the “Buddhist Dictionary- Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines,â€? by Nyanatiloka -Published by the Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy , Sri Lanka . I would be pleased to receive any criticism on the book, as it would help me greatly if there were to be a reprint. Charles.S.Perera #80518 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > I do not think it correct to say that we observe paramattha dhammas all > the time (or at all, for that matter). What I think is the situation is > that paramattha dhammas are arising all the time, but are not seen for > what they truly are. Seeing is arising now and is experiencing arisen > visible object, hearing is experiencing sound, mind-door consciousness > is thinking about the visible and audible objects being experienced, and > so on. But are any of these dhammas being seen as just an impersonal > element? I suspect not; for us there are always people and things "in" > the visible object, meaning "in" the sound, etc. > > > ============================= > You have said here that you disagree, and then you confirm exactly what > I said. Ah, well! > Let me explain further from my perspective. Although paramattha dhammas are arising all the time, they are not seen for what they are unless they are the object of consciousness that is accompanied by panna of the level of insight. When the dhamma that is visible object (to take an example) is the object of seeing consciousness, I would not consider that to be an "observing" of that dhamma, in that seeing consciousness merely experiences the visible object. Likewise the multiple subsequent mind-door consciousnesses that experience or think about the visible object just experienced. So in the absence of panna of the level of insight, dhammas cannot be said to be "observed" at all, as I take that term to be meant in the context of the development of insight. For the same reason, there can be no such thing as "observing" paramattha dhammas but without clarity of observation (except in the sense that paramattha dhammas are the object of panna that is very weak). (In fact, I don't think the texts talk about dhammas being *observed* at all; this may be terminology that has been introduced in relatively recent times). Jon #80519 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:39 am Subject: Perfections Corner (65) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness (continued) We should realize which of the perfections are still inadequately developed in our daily life. When we assist others, we should find out to what extent we have developed loving-kindness. When we compare the development of loving-kindness to the development of the other perfections, is mettaa developed more, less or equal to the other perfections? If we have developed the other perfections but our inclination to assist others with kindness is deficient, we should find out the reason for this. Is it because we are already pleased with our own kusala or is it because of defilements, such as conceit, clinging to the importance of self? We may think that it is not necessary to help someone else. Or, when we have given assistance to someone else we may wonder what the other person will be thinking about us. We should find out whether such thoughts are kusala or akusala. We should instead give assistance to someone without paying attention to what he thinks about us, no matter whether he rejoices in our deed or whether he blames us, because in reality he cannot harm us. What he thinks about us concerns only himself, not us. We should realize that no matter how much kusala we have performed already, it is not yet enough. We may believe that it is sufficient, but even when we have developed kusala and realized the four noble Truths to the degree of the streamwinner, sotaapanna, it is not yet enough. All defilements should be eradicated and this is realized at the stage of arahatship. Therefore, if someone is an ordinary person, not yet an ariyan who has reached the stage of the sotaapanna, he should not be neglectful and believe that he has already sufficiently developed kusala. No matter how many good deeds we have done, it never is enough. When sati arises we can know what type of akusala is the reason for being disinclined to assist someone else. It may be because of selfishness, or because of conceit, or because we believe that we waste our time, that it is not useful to help others. Some people think that they have done many good deeds already and therefore, they do not want to associate with others. One should ask oneself whether such a thought is kusala or akusala. If we associate with others in order to assist them, the citta is kusala. Thus, we should associate with others so that we can support them to a greater extent. When we are able to have friendliness to all people we shall not be neglectful of the perfection of mettaa, loving-kindness. There should be no limits to mettaa; and if we restrict it there may not be mettaa but lobha, attachment, which is akusala, not kusala. == to be continued, connie #80520 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:40 am Subject: (No subject) nichiconn dear friends, Theriigaathaa - Sisters (72) Part 15 15. Cattaaliisanipaato 1. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 420. "Napiha.m aparajjha.m ki~nci, napi hi.msemi na bha.naami dubbacana.m; ki.m sakkaa kaatuyye, ya.m ma.m viddessate bhattaa. 418. "I have not offended at all. I have not harmed [him]. I have not said any evil utterance. What is it possible to do when my husband hates me?" [I said.] Napiha.m aparajjhanti napi aha.m tassa ki~nci aparajjhi.m. Ayameva vaa paa.tho. Napi hi.msemiiti napi baadhemi. Dubbacananti duruttavacana.m. Ki.m sakkaa kaatuyyeti ki.m mayaa kaatu.m ayye sakkaa. Ya.m ma.m viddessate bhattaati yasmaa akaara.neneva bhattaa mayha.m viddessate viddessa.m cittappakopa.m karoti. 418. I ('ha.m) have not offended (aparajjha.m) means: I (aha.m) have not offended (aparajjhi.m) against him at all. Or just this is a reading. I have not harmed [him] means: I have not hurt him. Evil utterance (du-bbacana.m [= du + vacana.m]) means: badly spoken utterance (dur-utta-vacana.m). What is it possible to do (kaatu-'yye)? When my husband hates me means: since my husband hates me for no reason, he produces hatred and mental anger. 421. "Te ma.m pitughara.m pa.tinayi.msu, vimanaa dukhena adhibhuutaa; puttamanurakkhamaanaa, jitaamhase ruupini.m lakkhi.m. 419. Downcast, overcome by pain, they led me back to my father's house, [saying,] "In taking care of our son, we have given up the incarnation of Lakkhii." Vimanaati domanassikaa. Puttamanurakkhamaanaati attano putta.m mayha.m saamika.m cittamanurakkha.nena anurakkhantaa. Jitaamhase ruupini.m lakkhinti jitaa amhase jitaa vataamha ruupavati.m siri.m, manussavesena carantiyaa siridevataaya parihiinaa vataati attho. 419. Downcast means: grieving. In taking care (anurakkhamaanaa) of our son means: taking care (anurakkhantaa) by watching over (anu-rakkha.nena) the mind of their son [who was] my husband. We have gien up (jitaa'mhase) the incarnation (ruupini.m) of Lakkhii means: we have given up (jitaa amhase), we have indeed given up (jitaa vatamha) the beautiful Sirii. We are deprived of the devataa Sirii who is going about in human form. 422. "Atha ma.m adaasi taato, a.d.dhassa gharamhi dutiyakulikassa; tato upa.d.dhasu"nkena, yena ma.m vindatha se.t.thi. 420. Then my father gave me to a rich man belonging to a second family's household for half the dowry for which the [first] merchant had taken me. A.d.dhassa gharamhi dutiyakulikassaati pa.thamasaamika.m upaadaaya dutiyassa a.d.dhassa kulaputtassa gharamhi ma.m adaasi, dento ca tato pa.thamasu"nkato upa.d.dhasu"nkena adaasi. Yena ma.m vindatha se.t.thiiti yena su"nkena ma.m pa.thama.m se.t.thi vindatha pa.tilabhi, tato upa.d.dhasu"nkenaati yojanaa. 420. To a rich man (a.d.dhassa) belonging to a second family's (duti-ya-kulikassa) household means: he gave me to the household of a second (dutiyassa) rich man, the son of a good family (kula-puttassa). And after having given the first dowry, he gave half the dowry. For which the [first] merchant had taken me means: for which dowry the first merchant had taken, had received, me; the implication is: half that dowry. 423. "Tassapi gharamhi maasa.m, avasi.m atha sopi ma.m pa.ticcharayi; daasiiva upa.t.thahanti.m, aduusika.m siilasampanna.m. 421. In this house too I lived a month. Then he also rejected me, [although] I served him like a slave girl, not harming him, possessed of virtuous conduct. Sopiiti dutiyasaamikopi. Ma.m pa.ticcharayiiti ma.m niihari, so ma.m gehato nikka.d.dhi. Upa.t.thahantinti daasii viya upa.t.thahanti.m upa.t.thaana.m karonti.m. Aduusikanti adubbhanaka.m. 421. He also means: my second husband also. He rejected me means, he drove me out. He threw me out of his house. [I] served (upa-.t.thahanti.m) means: [I] served, did service (upa.t.thaana.m), like a slave girl. Not harming him means: not deceiving him. == tbc, connie #80521 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation nilovg Dear Robert A, Op 26-dec-2007, om 14:24 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > R: One of the conditions for enlightenment is association with the > right > friend in Dhamma and listening to him/her, but aren't there other > conditions you could cite, or do you consider these to be the only > conditions for enlightenment? -------- N: As to listening, this also includes reading the Tipitaka. When we read suttas we listen to the Buddha in person. As to how much or how little someone reads, this depends on individual inclinations. There is no rule. Kh Sujin said about someone who was looking for a teacher: the Tipitaka is the teacher. The Tipitaka is our teacher if we not only read and study, but also apply what we read. As to the conditions for enlightenment mentioned in the Gradual Sayings, not only association with the good friend and listening are conditions, but also considering with wise attention and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. We should not belittle these two factors, they are essential and not easy. All these factors depend so much on conditions. It depends on good kamma, also performed in the past, whether one will come across Buddhism and meet the right friend. As to wise attention, this depends on former moments with wise attention, even in past lives; nobody can make it arise on command. And so it is with the right practice that leads to the goal. ------- > R: In the section below you seem to be > saying that listening to Dhamma gives rise to kusala citta, which > gives > rise to the absence of greed, hatred, and delusion. So, it sounds like > listening to Dhamma is the path. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > N: I would like to put it in a different way. Listening helps to > have less ignorance. The first aim is to have more understanding > and not immediately the elimination of greed, hatred, and delusion. > That is the function of pa~n~naa which can eradicate akusala in > different stages of enlightenment and only at arahatship these > three akusala roots are eradicated. First of all it is important to > understand akusala when it arises, to understand it as a > conditioned dhamma and not mine. > ------------------ > R: Are you taking 'awareness and direct understanding of the > characteristics of naama and ruupa as they appear one at a time ' as a > translation of dhamma-vicaya, the second of the seven factors of > enlightenment? > ---------------------------------------------------------- N: Dhamma vicaya, discrimination of dhammas. It is one of the many descriptions of pa~n~naa. It is not theoretical or intellectual, but direct understanding that arises with mindfulness that investigates naama and ruupa, as I see it. > ----------- > R: My understanding of your answer to my questions is that you are > saying that quieting the hindrances through listening to dhamma leads > to sati and dhamma-vicaya, which then gives rise to the others of the > seven factors of enlightenment? Is this correct? -------- N: This is not my intention. I see by your questions that you find it very important that the five hindrances are discarded. This is not the first aim of vipassana. It is for samatha but here we can see the difference between samatha and vipassana. In vipassana the hindrances have to be known as they are. This we read in the satipatthaanasutta under the Application of Mindfulness which is Mindfulness of Dhammas. How can they be known? Only when they arise. They arise anyway because there are conditions for their arising. Lobha arises very often in a day and it has many kinds of objects. We enjoy nature, music, we enjoy it to be alive. We like to see, to hear to experience sense objects. Through the Dhamma we learn that this is attachment that takes many forms. We can become familiar with its characteristic. We can learn that it is a mere dhamma arising because of conditions. That is the beginning, to see everything as dhamma. Then pa~n~naa can develop and investigate more nama and rupa as they appear. It can be known that these are only elements that do not belong to us. As we read in Yesterday's Perfections corner: As pa~n~naa develops also the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment develop together, we need not think of them or name them. As you see among them there are several that are mentioned again under a different name, this to show different aspects, such as the indriyas and the balas, powers. When the indriya of sati is more developed it becomes a power, it can arise at any time in any circumstance. This is in the course of the development of the stages of insight. -------- > R: Thank you once again Nina for your help. I regret I take up so > much of > your time and yet seem to understand so little. ------ N: You help me consider more, very useful your type of questions. Understanding so little, no that is for all of us. When quoting from the Perfections I realize that it is hard to really understand that life does not belong to us and are mere dhammas. Like this one: But I see and cling to people I see. still, it is good to hear again and again that there is no one in visible object. It makes one wonder about this, and than consider with wise attanetion if there are condiitons. Otherwise there is dosa, aversion, but this should also be known. Otherwise it cannot be eradicated. This is what I see as 'training', thinking of Howard's post on training in baseball. Nina. #80522 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter_from_Pannabahulo (2) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - I enjoyed both of these letters, liking the moderate tone and positions d isplayed there. There are a few points in letter 2 I'd like to comment on. One paragraph is the following: <> 1) When I practiced according to Goenka's approach, though he did speak of "strong concentration", I did not fix the mind intensely, but maintained relaxed awareness, and I didn't interpret the instructions as urging forced focus, but relaxed, steady, and alert observation. (I still will engage in occasional body scanning when I find that attention or calm are weak.) 2) I agree with not labeling. So did Goenka, and so does Gunaratana (BTW). In my view, labeling encourages conceptualization instead of direct observation. 3) Goenka also suggested returning to the breath when calm and clarity diminish. From the first letter, I very much liked the paragraph: <> With regard to its points: 1) I have discovered in my own practice that mindfulness of body has easily led into mindfulness of the other foundations, and especially into thought and emotion, which has become very important and useful to me. As it says in the Dhammapada, "Mind is the forerunner of states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they." 2) Relaxation and a degree of purity is key to proper meditation, and forcing is counterproductive. 3) Particular posture is of little importance except as it impacts clarity & attention and calm. With metta, Howard #80523 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter_from_Pannabahulo (1) nilovg Dear Sarah, I am moved by Ven. Pannabahulo's kindness to dedicate merit to Ajahn Sujin and all. I appreciate so much his efforts sitting up and writing, though he suffered pain. I shall read the other letters you attached later on. Please return his kind wishes, Nina. Op 27-dec-2007, om 12:16 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I have been asked to share my experiences by both Nina and Sarah. I am > very thankful for this opportunity of sharing the Dhamma with you > and the > merit I have gained from doing so. I dedicate that merit to Ajan > Sujin and > all DSG members. #80524 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:13 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 8, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin said about seeing the five khandhas as a burden: "The body, rúpakkhandha, is a burden, because we have to look after it from birth to death. Also the nåma-khandhas are a burden, but we do not consider them as a burden. We have to see and we have to hear already for countless aeons. We are not tired of seeing, it is not self. It must arise, it lasts for an extremely short while and then it must fall away, it is dukkha. Visible object impinges just for a moment on the eyesense, it is seen and then it falls away. Realities appear through the six doors very shortly and then fall away, there is nothing left. We keep on thinking on account of what is experienced through the six doors, but there is no self who thinks. There must be right understanding so that the khandhas can be seen as a burden." So long as there is ignorance and clinging the khandhas have to arise again and again, there will be the continuation of the cycle of birth and death. The khandhas have to arise and to fall away, and thus, they are dukkha. In the above-quoted sutta it is explained that craving, the second noble Truth is the cause of dukkha and that the extinction of craving means the ceasing of dukkha. After our discussion we showed our respect to the Buddha by walking three times around in the area of the pillar erected by King Asoka. This pillar, impressive because of its simplicity, has the inscription commemorating King Asoka's visit: "By His Sacred and Gracious Majesty the King, when he had been consecrated twenty years, having come in person and reverence having been done- inasmuch as `Here was born Buddha, the sage of the Såkyas'- a stone bearing a horse was cause to be made and a stone pillar was erected. Inasmuch as `Here the Holy One was born,' the village of Lummini was released from religious cesses and required to pay one-eighth as land revenue." One can still see the small remnant of an old statue placed on the ground next to the pillar. During our pilgrimages in India we always discussed the perfections, påramís, accumulated by the Buddha during his lives as a Bodhisatta. The perfections are most important, because if they are not developed together with satipatthåna defilements cannot be eradicated. Each of the perfections helps to eliminate the clinging to the idea of self and they can support the paññå which can eventually eradicate all defilements. The perfections are: liberality, morality, renunciation, wisdom, energy, patience, truthfulness, resolution, loving kindness and equanimity. These qualities are only perfections when they are developed without thinking to gain something for oneself. They should be developed with the aim of having less selfishness, less defilements. ******** Nina. #80525 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy avalo1968 Hello Jon (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Although paramattha dhammas are arising all the time, they are not seen > for what they are unless they are the object of consciousness that is > accompanied by panna of the level of insight. > Robert A: So, what conditions the arising of panna of the level of insight as an accompaniment to the object of consciousness? I suspect you will say it is listening to Dhamma. Anything else or is that it? Thank you, Robert A. #80526 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:24 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "For non-Buddhist Jhana then maybe Panna isn't nessesery to any great extent (you do however need atleast SOME wisdom to do it rather than indulge in sensuality). But for a Buddhist following the N8P IT IS IMPORTANT." Scott: In Sammohavinodanii (p. 44): "...After that, when his virtue is established; having severed the ten obstructions (see Vis. 89 f.), he is content through the highest contentment with the three robes, he does the various duties for the teacher and preceptor and, after learning a meditation subject (kamma.t.thaana) and doing the preliminary work on a kasi.na, he arouses the attainments, he increases insight which has the attainments as basis and he reaches Arahantship." A: "Considering that Jhana is pleasurable, steady burning, etc - we can call it a proper Buddhist Ecstasy." Scott: Atthasaalinii (p.p.222-223): "Jhaana is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object and that which examines closely the characteristic marks. Of these two, 'object-scrutinising' jhaana examines closely those devices [for self-hypnosis] as mental objects. Insight, the Path and Fruition are called 'characteristics-examining jhaana.' Of these three, insight is so called from its examining closely the characteristics of impermanence, etc. Because the work to be done by insight is accomplished through the Path, the Path is so called. And because Fruition examines closely the Truth of cessation, and possesses the characteristic of truth, it also is called 'characteristic-examining jhaana.' Of these two kinds of jhaana, the 'object-examining' mode is here intended. Hence, from the examining the object and extinguishing the opposing Hindrances, jhaana is to be thus understood." Scott: Is there a difference between the way you understand 'jhaana' which, at lower levels, includes piiti, versus 'piiti', which is an element which arises in some of the levels of jhaana? I notice how piiti is sankhaarakhanda, and not included under vedanaa. A: "What I meant to say was that they ARE examinable while in Jhana. In the suttas you won't find "No perception or volition exists during Jhana, so please come out of it first to review it!". Scott: It cannot be that jhaana is without volition since jhaana attainment can be condition for rebirth in higher planes. I don't think that anyone is claiming that there is no volition or perception during jhaana. This is why one also needs Commentarial clarification. See, for example, Sammohavinodanii (p.p. 140-141), under 'Right Thinking': "Therefore, in one has entered upon jhaana by doing preliminary work on the foul, at the time of attainment thinking which is associated with jhaana arises and is opposed to applied thought of the sense sphere by suppressing it. In one who is establishing insight by making the jhaana the basis for it, at the moment of insight thinking which is associated with insight arises and is opposed to applied thought of sense desire by substitution by opposite qualities. In one who attains the path by pursuing insight, at the moment of the path thinking which is associated with the path arises and is opposed to applied thought of sense desire by cutting off..." Scott: The applied thought occurring during jhaana is not sense-sphere thought. This is suppressed. Sincerely, Scott. #80527 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:26 am Subject: Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 8, no 2. avalo1968 Hello Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > During our pilgrimages in India we always discussed the perfections, > påramís, accumulated by the Buddha during his lives as a Bodhisatta. > The perfections are most important, because if they are not developed > together with satipatthåna defilements cannot be eradicated. Each of > the perfections helps to eliminate the clinging to the idea of self > and they can support the paññå which can eventually eradicate all > defilements. The perfections are: liberality, morality, renunciation, > wisdom, energy, patience, truthfulness, resolution, loving kindness > and equanimity. These qualities are only perfections when they are > developed without thinking to gain something for oneself. They should > be developed with the aim of having less selfishness, less defilements. > > ******** > Nina. > > > I would be very interested in anything you can say about how these perfections are developed in our day to day lives. Thank you, Robert A. #80528 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Alex) - In a message dated 12/27/2007 10:24:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Scott: The applied thought occurring during jhaana is not sense-sphere thought. This is suppressed. ================================== My experience is that the "applied thought" addressed is the intentional application of attention to what arises, and it isn't so much "suppressed" as simply falls away (though not for good), with attention to what arises then simply flowing along naturally on its own. That seems to mark a transition in the meditation process - a definite upward change of state. With metta, Howard #80529 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation moellerdieter Hi Howard, I loved your comment on the 'Art of Bowling' .. ;-) Howard: 'I think of bowling. If we know how to play but do not pick up the ball, or we do pick it up but don't look at the pins, or we do both of these but get distracted by talking or by our own thinking and forget to release the ball at all or send it right down the gutter, then we miss the target entirely. On the other hand, if we don't know the rules of the game or don't know even how to hold the ball, there's no point in going to the bowling alley to begin with! ;-) But if we do know the rules of the game and how to hold the ball, we can, with additional tips from those more adept than we, and with regular practice, learn proper placement of body, proper directing of the ball, and proper attention - and then performance improves. With knowledge, practice makes perfect.' with Metta Dieter #80530 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation avalo1968 Hello Nina, Thank you again for your detailed response. N: As to the conditions for enlightenment mentioned in the Gradual Sayings, not only association with the good friend and listening are conditions, but also considering with wise attention and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. We should not belittle these two factors, they are essential and not easy. All these factors depend so much on conditions. It depends on good kamma, also performed in the past, whether one will come across Buddhism and meet the right friend. As to wise attention, this depends on former moments with wise attention, even in past lives; nobody can make it arise on command. And so it is with the right practice that leads to the goal. R: When you say 'practice according to the Dhamma', I take that to mean things like restraint of the senses, being generous and patient, keeping precepts, and being kind. Is that what you have in mind - these things plus wise attention? ------------------------------- N: The first aim is to have more understanding and not immediately the elimination of greed, hatred, and delusion. That is the function of pa~n~naa which can eradicate akusala in different stages of enlightenment and only at arahatship these three akusala roots are eradicated. First of all it is important to understand akusala when it arises, to understand it as a conditioned dhamma and not mine. R: This is a very important point and one I think is key to what I am trying to understand. The issue is which comes first - the quieting of greed, hatred, and delusion - which leads to seeing more clearly - which leads to more understanding, or more understanding that leads to quieting of greed, hatred, and delusion. I don't say the elimination of greed, hatred, and delusion because the elimination of these things only comes with wisdom, but it is possible to quiet them down and it has always been my believe that doing that, giving them a bit of a rest, makes it possible to see things more clearly. In fact, it has always been my belief that it is necessary to quiet them down to some extent in order for any understanding to arise. ---------------------------------- > R: My understanding of your answer to my questions is that you are > saying that quieting the hindrances through listening to dhamma leads > to sati and dhamma-vicaya, which then gives rise to the others of the > seven factors of enlightenment? Is this correct? -------- N: This is not my intention. I see by your questions that you find it very important that the five hindrances are discarded. This is not the first aim of vipassana. It is for samatha but here we can see the difference between samatha and vipassana. In vipassana the hindrances have to be known as they are. This we read in the satipatthaanasutta under the Application of Mindfulness which is Mindfulness of Dhammas. How can they be known? Only when they arise. They arise anyway because there are conditions for their arising. Lobha arises very often in a day and it has many kinds of objects. We enjoy nature, music, we enjoy it to be alive. We like to see, to hear to experience sense objects. Through the Dhamma we learn that this is attachment that takes many forms. We can become familiar with its characteristic. We can learn that it is a mere dhamma arising because of conditions. That is the beginning, to see everything as dhamma. Then pa~n~naa can develop and investigate more nama and rupa as they appear. It can be known that these are only elements that do not belong to us. R: As I said, it is not a question of the five hindrances being discarded, but for them to be somewhat attenuated. They are not eliminated, so they can be known and should be known. You are right that this is the point of practice, but quieting them makes this possible. This is like a discussion I have often had with others about dealing with difficult situations in our lives. Often it is very helpful for us to deal with difficult situations in our lives, for we can see Dhamma in these difficulties. However, if the situation is so difficult it overwhelms us, then it is better to withdraw from the situation if we can - it is beyond our capacity to handle with wisdom and mindfulness. It is the same with the hindrances. We can be overwhelmed and then it is good to quiet things down a bit. Thank you, Robert A. #80531 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply: H: "My experience is that the "applied thought" addressed is the intentional application of attention to what arises, and it isn't so much "suppressed" as simply falls away (though not for good), with attention to what arises then simply flowing along naturally on its own. That seems to mark a transition in the meditation process - a definite upward change of state." Scott: I agree that 'suppressed' means 'simply falls away' although I'm seeing that this would be by substitution of another mental factor during that and subsequent moments. I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by the 'intentional application of attention' aspect of the above. As I understand it, 'applied thought' is vitakka, a mental factor, as well as 'sustained thought', vicaara, also a mental factor. Vitakka (Dhammasa"nga.ni): "The discrimination, the application, which on that occasion is the disposing, the fixing, the focussing, the superposing of the mind, right disposing..." Vicaara (Dhammasa"nga.ni): "The process, the sustained procedure (vicaaro), the progress and access [of the mind] which on that occasion is is the [continuous] adjusting and focussing of thought..." Scott: To me, and let's take the first jhaana, these two mental factors are arising along with the others to constitute the jhaana. They have functions, performed according to characteristics. These functions are described above and, as usual, are not subject to the willful direction of the so-called Meditator. They produce their effect by virtue of arising. Sincerely, Scott. #80532 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - ============================== I've read vitakka (while meditating) described as the initial knocking of one's attention against the meditation object(s) and vicara described as the continued "rubbing" against the meditation object(s). This "rings a bell" with me. One begins meditating with intentional, initial paying of attention (vitakka) and follow-up application of mind (vicara), typically accompanied by a sense of some "one" who is paying attention, and these rise to the level of factors in the first jhana, still with intentional effort very much in place, though with the sense of an "actor who is paying attention" diminished if not completely gone. The still-existing intentional (but now impersonal) effort to pay attention then entirely falls away upon entry to the 2nd jhana. Not only has the sense of an "applier of attention" already fallen away in the first jhana, but on entry to the second jhana, the very effort-to-attend falls away, the attending then moving along naturally on its own. There doesn't even seem to be a purposeful relinquishment of effort-to-attend involved. The effort just ceases, becoming unneeded. It is like slipping into a different gear, with forward movement becoming effortless. With metta, Howard P. S. What I wrote above expresses a combination of read material and personal experience. I'm just relating it, without the intention to convince or persuade. I'm not looking to argue about any of it. #80533 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta special vs. anicca and dukkha (was, Report ...) moellerdieter Hi Jon, you wrote: ('D: there is a need to develop one's own understanding , Jon.. the texts are only guidelines from which you are supposed to construct your raft for the other shore') Jon:Hmm. Not sure what you're saying here, Dieter. Do you mean that "one's own understanding" may be developed in a way that is not mentioned or explained in the texts? This would seem to leave the door open to anything at all! D: I think you will agree with me that right understanding/view , i.e.wisdom does not come from the text but has to be developed by contemplation ..M.N. 22 is nice to read in this relation ..e.g. these 2 passages (transl. by T.B.): 'Monks, there is the case where some worthless men study the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. Having studied the Dhamma, they don't ascertain the meaning (or: the purpose) of those Dhammas 5 with their discernment. Not having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they don't come to an agreement through pondering. They study the Dhamma both for attacking others and for defending themselves in debate. They don't reach the goal for which [people] study the Dhamma. Their wrong grasp of those Dhammas will lead to their long-term harm & suffering. Why is that? Because of the wrong-graspedness of the Dhammas.' snip The Blessed One said: "Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. ' Jon : As insight is (gradually) developed then, and only then, the 3 characteristics (gradually) become more apparent. I believe it is explained in the texts that for different people, a different one of the 3 characteristics will be fully penetrated just before or at the moment of full enlightenment, and that all 3 are fully known only by the arahant. But no special mention is made of anatta in this regard, to my knowledge. D: yes all three charcteristics of existence fully penetrated by the arahant only .. Do you see a difference between detachment and anatta ?. Jon: I do indeed see a difference between detachment and anatta. To my understanding: - anattaa is a *characteristic* of all dhammas - detachment refers to a moment of kusala consciousness, specifically to the wholesome mental factor (i.e., a *dhamma*) that is panna, since it is panna that conditions detachment from dhammas by virtue of seeing them as they truly are. How do you see anattaa and detachment? D: we talking about fully penetrated ...not moments of anatta at kusala consciousnessa. The fetter of conceit is only abolished at Arahant level. As suffering is described in brief by khanda attachment , detachment means full penetration/realization of ( all dhammas are) anatta, doesn't it? with Metta Dieter #80534 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hello Andrew, Sorry for the delay. I was little involved; my son has come home for a vacation. 1. First about saddhaa Amuulikaa saddhaa is to learn something from somebody in some manner and just do it. For example, a child learns a poem from the teacher; memorises it and is able to repeat it perfectly. In the sphere of religion also, this is the case. Take the veda 'mantras', as examples. The same is true of all kinds of praying and so on. Amuulikaa saddhaa is based on faith; but saddhaa itself is action; praying worshiping, making oferrings etc. Saddhaa on the other hand is based on knowledge. What we normally call knowledge. For a householder it (Buddhist saddhaa) is the knowledge that good actions bring good results and evil actions bring evil results. But this is not the so-called 'kamma theory'. What is good here is defined as what is socially accepted. For example, lying is not accepted by any society as good or right. Similarly the others. Basically the idea is to live in a harmonious society. But dhamma goes one step further. The final criterion for this is not to do anything by word or by deed of even by mind something that is harmful to you or the other(s). Or the converse, do only things that are beneficial to you and the other. You learn this by actual experience. I'll give an example. Suppose your telephone rings and you are lazy to answer it. You tell your wife to say that you are not at home or something. Then may be he rings your son, who tells him that you are at home. Your friend loses trust in you. You learn that it is not good to lie even in such circumstances. I hope you get the idea behind my reasoning. Now here is a counterargument: At one time killing say elephants in Africa was a sport. It is no more so. So killing is good today, tomorrow it is evil. Well yes, that is true of all human ethical systems. Therefore all religions. And true of Buddhism as well. This is where dhamma comes in. The purpose of living ethically in Dhamma is not to attain a good life here or hereafter; no doubt it is a consequence. The purpose is that takes away worry and fear from you. And you have only firendliness towards the whole world. You are at peace with the world; you are contented. Such a mind does not hanker after anything. The moment you are finished with the hustle bustle of living; eating drinking and so on, the mind is not perturbed. If at this time you concentrate on some 'good' object, all the hindrances (niiavarana) will be gone. Your mind gets concentrated. The result according to the Dhamma is jhaana. This is a causal process. From here the transition from the human(manussa) to higher than human (uttarimanussadhamma) or ariya starts. Siila-samaadhi-pa~n~naa. Samaadhi is the centre of the path. [I did not want to use mundane and supramundane because there is nothing supramundane or transcendental in the Dhamma. After all the Buddha and all the arahants were 'human beings'] If you progress further along the path, you become a sotapanna (or a stream-enterer). That is a state of knowledge. By the way there are no such 'knowledge states' in any other religion. What I said up to samaadhi is based on my own experience and hence knowledge; samaadhi and beyond from dhamma texts. In the Western philosophical tradition, knowledge is justified true belief. In Buddhism, knowledge is when you know; it is a voyage of discovery. [Ariyapariyesana] (research for 'ariya'). Jayatillekes, interpretation of Aakaravati saddhaa as 'rational faith' is wrong. Aakaaravatii saddhaa is essentially a Buddhist concept. It is really to be endowed with the manner of doing of ariyas. or sotapanna. There are many things here you will find 'going against the stream'. But that is dhamma 'pa.tisotagaamii' --against the stream. But please do comment. if you find any point obscure. I haven't given the references and the Pali for two reasons: First, It would make this too long and drown the reasoning in Pali. [There is a discussion going on here about mettaa now; read a few of them to see what I mean. It has a very simple meaning--friendliness]. Understanding Dhamma is not to be able to repeat the tipitaka by memory. That is Amuulika saddhaa. There is the famous story of the monk 'tuccho p.thila'-He knew the tipitaka by heart. But that is all. The Buddha called him tuccho po.thila meaning-empty-headed, fool etc. There are number of gaathaas in Dhammapada on the same theme. Finally on this topic, Kaalaama sutta gives the most relevant explanation of this phenomenon. Finally, on this: " On another issue, I cannot know the mind of another but can I know my own mind? Do I know my own mind only through observing my speech and actions?" You learn about your mind by observing your own mind. The whole of satipa.t.thaanasutta is on this. The sutta that is described as the only way, sole way etc. From another angle this is: sammaa vaayaama, sammaa sati and sammaa samaadhi of the Ariyan-Eightfold path. If you look at the path carefully, sammaa vaaca, sammaa kammanta, sammaa aajiiva is connected with sila (may be even sammaa sankappa can be classified as siila), That is about the purity of actions by word, deed, and the former three about the purity of the mind. Many thanks for all these questions. They make my understanding also clearer. Kind regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #80535 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply. Perhaps I can respond to: H: "What I wrote above expresses a combination of read material and personal experience. I'm just relating it, without the intention to convince or persuade. I'm not looking to argue about any of it." Scott: This, to me, is at the Heart of the Difficulty I see in the whole 'Meditation' thing - the 'Personal Experience' factor. And in making a statement based on it, you close yourself off from any discussion that might protect you from becoming Lost In Introspection. On the one hand, as you note above and as I can appreciate, this Personal Experience factor is held out to be Unassailable. On the other hand one is told to seek this Experience since 'Book Learning' is supposedly not appropriate. With personal experience used as an arbitrator of what a given thing is, I can see this as leading to Absolute Anarchy, given the multiplicity of Experiencers. One would think that the Experience of states is in accordance with the characteristics of these states, no matter what one thinks or theorises about it. I think that this Experience can be Very Misleading. Furthermore, I think that what one thinks about one's Experience can amplify error. And finally, to rest on Experience without allowing for Outside Influence is potentially harmful. What is it that allows one to ascertain that this Experience is what one thinks it is, that is, what is found in the Dhamma? Sincerely, Scott. #80536 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 8, no 2. nilovg Dear Robert, We can find this in Kh Sujin's book that is posted here (by Connie: Sage, and also was by Han), chapter by chapter. Now it is about mettaa. If you like the hardcover of Kh Sujin's book, just give me your postal address, it is no trouble. I also wrote about the Perfections: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm It is on Rob K's web. Is there anything in particular you like to know? We can discuss Connie's postings in the Perfection corner. It is good to elaborate on this. They are, all of them, necessary conditions for enlightenment. Nina. Op 27-dec-2007, om 16:26 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > I would be very interested in anything you can say about how these > perfections are developed in our day to day lives. #80537 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation nilovg Hi Howard, sorry I made it baseball in my post to Robert A. It is all with balls and it does not mean a thing to me;-)) Nina. Op 27-dec-2007, om 17:04 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > I loved your comment on the 'Art of Bowling' .. ;-) #80538 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/27/2007 1:43:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply. Perhaps I can respond to: H: "What I wrote above expresses a combination of read material and personal experience. I'm just relating it, without the intention to convince or persuade. I'm not looking to argue about any of it." Scott: This, to me, is at the Heart of the Difficulty I see in the whole 'Meditation' thing - the 'Personal Experience' factor. And in making a statement based on it, you close yourself off from any discussion that might protect you from becoming Lost In Introspection. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is why I read the suttas, read the writings monks who both study and practice the Dhamma, and who teach it. It is why I have taken instruction. But I don't pay much attention to those who don't meditate for meditation instruction. ------------------------------------------------------ On the one hand, as you note above and as I can appreciate, this Personal Experience factor is held out to be Unassailable. On the other hand one is told to seek this Experience since 'Book Learning' is supposedly not appropriate. With personal experience used as an arbitrator of what a given thing is, I can see this as leading to Absolute Anarchy, given the multiplicity of Experiencers. One would think that the Experience of states is in accordance with the characteristics of these states, no matter what one thinks or theorises about it. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't rely only on personal experience. ---------------------------------------------------- I think that this Experience can be Very Misleading. Furthermore, I think that what one thinks about one's Experience can amplify error. And finally, to rest on Experience without allowing for Outside Influence is potentially harmful. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: If first-hand experience is unsure, what then of second-hand? ;-) Ultimately, in the final analysis, we have ONLY our experience to depend on. ---------------------------------------------------- What is it that allows one to ascertain that this Experience is what one thinks it is, that is, what is found in the Dhamma? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: What is it that builds faith in the Dhamma? ;-) Ehipassiko is my answer. ----------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ========================== With metta, Howard #80539 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/27/2007 2:19:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, sorry I made it baseball in my post to Robert A. It is all with balls and it does not mean a thing to me;-)) Nina. ============================= I'll have to search back for that post, Nina. I didn't realize it pertained to what I wrote. With metta, Howard #80540 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:55 am Subject: For New Comers To Buddhism -(was Re: Concept and Reality: Another Look(brief) abhidhammika Dear Howard, TG, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Chris F, Connie, Scott D, Mike N, Robert K and New Comers To Buddhism How are you? Howard, I believe that you meant well with your description of experience of seeing on that particular situation and later verbalisation of that experience. When you read the comments made by other readers like TG, Connie and Nina, you may have felt slightly misunderstood. As you might have already known all along, when we verbalised a profound experience such as seeing purely a form in this context, our verbalisation may not match the experience in question. This can lead to listeners to (or readers of) our verbalisation misunderstanding our position or being unable to capture the point we were trying to make. Gotama the Buddha's Theravada Teachings are very comprehensive. I mentioned the above because I wanted to point out the fact that we do not need to recourse to non-Theravada ideas such as Zen ones as you happened to do in your post. If our experiences are genuine and relevant to Niyyaanika Dhamma, the Buddha has already verbalised them explicitly. For example, the Buddha gave the following instructions to Baahiya. "Tasmaatiha te, baahiya, evam sikkhitabbam– `di.t.the di.t.thamattam bhavissati, sute sutamattam bhavissati, mute mutamattam bhavissati, viññaate viññaatamattam bhavissatii'ti." Please consult Baahiya Sutta, Section 10, Udaana Pali, Khuddakanikaayo. The above prescription of the Buddha signifies the radical personal intervention and overseeing of otherwise automatic processing of percepts (five types of sensory objects) and concepts (mind door objects comprising both paññatti dhammaa and paramattha dhammaa). Theravada Teachings as preserved in Pali Tipi.taka are called Theravada because they are the Teachings of the Buddha and his Ariya Disciples. Non-Theravada doctrines and ideas may be very brilliant and catchy, but they are verbalisations of puthujjana persons (pre-Sotaapanna, pre-enlightened). They should not be regarded as being reliable. Some pre-Sotaapanna non-Theravada teachers may add their own ideas to the Buddha's Theravada Teachings because they thought that Theravada Teachings need their own personal brilliant ideas. Some other pre-Sotaapanna non-Theravada teachers may remove very important key teachings from the Buddha's Theravada Teachings. For example, some non-Theravada teachers may remove certain items of Paaramitaas from the original Ten Paaramitaas while other of them may remove Right Effort (Sammaavaayamo) and Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi) from the original Noble Eightfold Path (A.t.thangikamaggo). As a recap for those new comers to Buddhism, Theravada Buddhism is the Teachings of Gotama the Buddha and his Ariya Disciples. Any other form of Buddhism is the version of putthujjana teachers. Here, a putthujjana is any common person like us who has not yet attained even the minimum level of awakening (Sotaapatti). We should not doubt such putthujana teachers, though, regarding their knowledge, well-intention, and seriousness about Buddhism. Their doctrines and ideas may be very catchy and brilliant, but they should be regarded as being unreliable if presented in short-changed formats and versions because they are verbalisations of pre- enlightened teachers. Sarah, I am sure that you are not a new comer to Buddhism, but I think it is about time that you checked if the version of Buddhism you embraced conformed to the Full And Original Version Of Buddhism known as Theravada Buddhism. It is never too late to rectify any mistakes and misrepresentations you may have made due to being misled by putthujjana teachers. Trying to get some support from Buddhist monks like Sayadaw U Tejaniya and Venerable Pannabahulo would not help your cause. Defending the indefensible never works. The ability to consult Abhidhamma and Anatta doctrine does not necessarily protect you from deviating the Noble Eightfold Path. With kind regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: Hi, all - I was just aware of "myself" seeing, and I realized how different was what I saw from what I think about when I read 'visible object'! When there is the thought of "visible object" or, more generally, of "rupa", what is imagined is a tiny, particulate entity - an "atom" of sorts. But that is not the reality experienced when eyes are open and there is seeing. (And I'm talking of seeing, per se, here - not after-the-fact, mind-door perception of conventional objects.) The difference between what is actually experienced and what we conceptualize is not a subtle one, but an extreme one - radical and dramatic. I believe there is a serious danger in getting "stuck in our head" and missing "the all". The Zen folks are right when they say "Look! Look!" With metta, Howard #80541 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] For New Comers To Buddhism -(was Re: Concept and Reality: Another L... upasaka_howard Hi, Suan (and all) - In a message dated 12/27/2007 4:17:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Dear Howard, TG, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Chris F, Connie, Scott D, Mike N, Robert K and New Comers To Buddhism How are you? Howard, I believe that you meant well with your description of experience of seeing on that particular situation and later verbalisation of that experience. ------------------------------------------- Howard: :-) ----------------------------------------------- When you read the comments made by other readers like TG, Connie and Nina, you may have felt slightly misunderstood. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. ---------------------------------------------- As you might have already known all along, when we verbalised a profound experience such as seeing purely a form in this context, our verbalisation may not match the experience in question. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That's right. In fact, it never matches it perfectly. ----------------------------------------------- This can lead to listeners to (or readers of) our verbalisation misunderstanding our position or being unable to capture the point we were trying to make. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's quite so, Suan. ---------------------------------------------- Gotama the Buddha's Theravada Teachings are very comprehensive. I mentioned the above because I wanted to point out the fact that we do not need to recourse to non-Theravada ideas such as Zen ones as you happened to do in your post. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That's true. There is good Dhamma to be found, though, in parts of Mahayana also, and sometimes the formulations are useful. But I agree that the true source is the Buddhadhamma itself, good throughout. --------------------------------------------------- ========================= With metta, Howard #80542 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 8, no 2. avalo1968 Hello Nina, Thank you for the link. I can read it online. Have a very Happy New Year. Robert A. #80543 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply. I know you are reluctant to discuss this sort of thing, and I appreciate the effort: Howard: "This is why I read the suttas, read the writings monks who both study and practice the Dhamma, and who teach it. It is why I have taken instruction. But I don't pay much attention to those who don't meditate for meditation instruction." Scott: I realise that you don't seek intruction from 'non-meditators', which is good since I am in no way attempting to instruct you. I am asking, as a 'non-meditator', how it is you know that your interpretation of your Experience while 'meditating' is correct? I read about the factors that inhere in, say, the First Jhaana. How does one know that it is piiti, for example, that on experiences? What is the experience of vitakka? Or vicaara? Howard: "I don't rely only on personal experience...Ultimately, in the final analysis, we have ONLY our experience to depend on." Scott: A contradiction - perhaps not meant to be - but confusing nonetheless. What do you mean, if I may ask? I think I am not asking about experience per se, now that I think of it, and as I noted above, I think I'm asking about the Interpretation of Experience. I've often read of your descriptions of this or that Event while meditating. How are these Interpretable vis-a-vis the Dhamma? Are these jhaana? What lets one know that one is in jhaana? (I am taking 'jhaana' to be Buddhist Meditation). Howard: "What is it that builds faith in the Dhamma? ;-) Ehipassiko is my answer." Scott: Yes, often said. Can't we discuss further though? Sincerely, Scott. #80544 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:55 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------------ KH: >> I think you will agree there are two types of Buddhism being > discussed at DSG. One is a religion in which devotees strive to find eternal peace and happiness in Nibbana. The other is an understanding of the present reality. >>> A: > There is no Jhana without wisdom, no WISDOM WITHOUT JHANA. Who has both is close to emancipation/ ------------ You might remember that I asked you to look into the "momentary" view of reality that DSG's Abhidhamma students are talking about. If you had done that you would have considered the possibility that "jhana" and "wisdom" in your above quote might be referring to two momentarily co-arising cetasikas. I believe they refer to the path factors samma-samadhi (right concentration) and samma-ditthi (right understanding) that arise in a moment of path-consciousness. So, in this case, the Pali word 'jhana' is not referring to the meditation practice of absorption, as it does in some other contexts. ----------------------- A: > Ken you in this 'intellectual' group refer to illogical argument called "Straw Man". You think that those who actually do the grunt work in the field, believe in "Atta" or Eternal Heaven. This is simply not true. ----------------------- I know what you mean. When I wrote "the devotees strive for eternal peace and happiness in Nibbana" I realised I was being a bit unfair, and I considered leaving "eternal" out of it. Even though some meditating Buddhists (Ven Thanissaro, for example) do see Nibbana as a place of eternal, unbound, consciousness, most others do not. Even so, I believe any view (ditthi) that is not right view must be wrong view. (I believe any view of ultimate conditioned reality that is not the "momentary nama and rupa" view must be wrong view.) I also tend to think that *every* wrong view contains an element of atta belief. (Corrections welcome.) Atta belief entails either eternalism or annihilation. I don't think meditating Buddhists are interested in annhilation, and so, by my reasoning, they must interested in some kind of eternalism. Therefore, I left the wording as it was - "the devotees strive for eternal peace and happiness in Nibbana." ---------------------------------- A: > Understanding needs a 'hightened mind' which is what Jhana provides. ----------------------------------- Here again, you are insisting on a conventional (non-momentary) interpretation of the Buddha's teaching. When you talk about "preparing the mind" for satipatthana you must be talking about a permanent (or lasting) being of some kind. The doctrine of anatta discounts the possibility of any such being. I know it is hard, but you simply must learn the "momentary" view of reality. Otherwise, you will never make sense of the Dhamma. ------------------------ KH: > > > The second kind has no concept of a self that will "go on" to find > enlightenment in the future. Therefore, any conventional ideas of > striving for enlightenment (formal meditation practices) are totally foreign to it. >>> A: > See above. Please don't use Straw Man fallacy. ------------------------ I agree that the Straw Man fallacy is a cheap-and-nasty way of winning an argument. I try to avoid it at all costs, and I think I have done so here. Let me explain what I meant to say. The second kind of Buddhist belief (the momentariness kind) says that there is only the present moment. There are only the presently arisen [momentary] conditioned namas and rupas, each of which has the characteristics anicca, dukkha and anatta. I think you must agree there is no room for atta belief in that kind of Buddhism. The first kind, however, is not so clearly without atta belief. It entails, preparatory practices that are not the actual path. Can't you see a hint of atta belief in this? Isn't there a suggestion of a self (a persisting entity) that is at one time not on the path and is, at a subsequent time, on the path? ------------------ KH: > > I know from the recorded talks that there have been occasions when > people have almost begged K Sujin to approve of their formal > practices. As she sees it, however, they are seeking permission to > keep going 'round and round on the wheel of samsara.' And so, for > their sakes, she never gives it. > A: > Too bad for her and her followers Kamma. ------------------ Until you have understood what they are talking about you can't really judge. Ken H #80545 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/27/2007 6:59:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply. I know you are reluctant to discuss this sort of thing, and I appreciate the effort: Howard: "This is why I read the suttas, read the writings monks who both study and practice the Dhamma, and who teach it. It is why I have taken instruction. But I don't pay much attention to those who don't meditate for meditation instruction." Scott: I realise that you don't seek intruction from 'non-meditators', which is good since I am in no way attempting to instruct you. I am asking, as a 'non-meditator', how it is you know that your interpretation of your Experience while 'meditating' is correct? I read about the factors that inhere in, say, the First Jhaana. How does one know that it is piiti, for example, that on experiences? What is the experience of vitakka? Or vicaara? --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Scott, I cannot know for sure, for I don't know what the criterion for "knowing" would be other than a sense of rightness that continues, and we cannot know when the continuing will stop. Mistakes do occur, but, often, one realizes them and moves on from there. So far, what I have learned from the Buddha has been confirmed to the extent I have followed up on it, and it has not yet in any way been contradicted by my experience. I do have strong faith in his teaching. But, in the final analysis, I have to go along with the Korean Son master in his urging "Only don't know" - for I do not know. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: "I don't rely only on personal experience...Ultimately, in the final analysis, we have ONLY our experience to depend on." Scott: A contradiction - perhaps not meant to be - but confusing nonetheless. What do you mean, if I may ask? ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: When we depend on the teaching and testimony of others, what we base that reliance on is in fact our own reason and experience, and, thus, in the final analysis, we do not, and really cannot, put any head above our own. ----------------------------------------------------------- I think I am not asking about experience per se, now that I think of it, and as I noted above, I think I'm asking about the Interpretation of Experience. I've often read of your descriptions of this or that Event while meditating. How are these Interpretable vis-a-vis the Dhamma? Are these jhaana? What lets one know that one is in jhaana? (I am taking 'jhaana' to be Buddhist Meditation). ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: In the past I did, I am certain, experience jhana. Not only did it match up, but it was "dramatic". More recently, while there still is a matching up, the drama is gone and unmissed, and I'm less interested in characterizing or naming aspects of my meditative experience. I do find a growth in calm, clarity, and ease of introspection as I live my life, and most of all, a growth of love and happiness - and I am grateful for that, and, for the moment at least, satisfied with it. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: "What is it that builds faith in the Dhamma? ;-) Ehipassiko is my answer." Scott: Yes, often said. Can't we discuss further though? -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know. Maybe. I'm not sure I have much more to say. ------------------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ============================== With metta, Howard #80546 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:25 pm Subject: Roots - II * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! <...> Taken from AccessToInsight.org1 Translated from Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu SUMMARY: Lack of greed, hatred and delusion are skillful (good). Whatever a person does without greed, hatred and/or delusion through bodily actions, verbal actions and mental actions are also skillful (good). Whatever suffering is not wrongly inflicted on another being through beating, imprisonment, confiscation, blaming, banishment by a person with his/her mind not overcome with greed, hatred and/or delusion thinking 'I am/want to be powerful' is also skillful (good). This is how many skillful (good) qualities come up with lack of greed, hatred and/or delusion as the root (cause). Such a person is called someone who speaks at the right time, speaks what is factual, speaks that which is relevant, speaks in line with the Dhamma (teachings) and Vinaya (training rules). Why? Because they did not wrongly inflict suffering on another through beating ... etc (with his/her mind overcome with greed, hatred and/or delusion). When s/he is told what factual they do acknowledge it and do not deny it. When s/he is shown the unfactual, s/he makes an ardent effort to untangle and see that as unfactual and baseless. In such a person evil, unskillful, states arising from greed, hatred and delusion have been given up and their roots completely destroyed without cause for their futher arising and s/he lives in ease right here and now feeling unthreatened, placid, unfeverish and is unbound (released, awakened, have attained Nibbana) right here and now. ROOTS - II Anguttara Nikâya 3.69 - Mula Sutta2 "Lack of greed itself is skillful. Whatever an ungreedy person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is skillful. Whatever suffering an ungreedy person — his mind not overcome with greed, his mind not consumed — does not wrongly inflict on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is skillful. Thus it is that many skillful qualities — born of lack of greed, caused by lack of greed, originated through lack of greed, conditioned by lack of greed — come into play. "Lack of aversion (anger) itself is skillful... "Lack of delusion (about the reality of existence; lack of awareness/knowledge of the Four Noble Truths) itself is skillful. Whatever an undeluded person fabricates by means of body, speech, or intellect, that too is skillful. Whatever suffering an undeluded person — his mind not overcome with delusion, his mind not consumed — does not wrongly inflict on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power,' that too is skillful. Thus it is that many skillful qualities — born of lack of delusion, caused by lack of delusion, originated through lack of delusion, conditioned by lack of delusion — come into play. "And a person like this is called one who speaks at the right time, speaks what is factual, speaks what is relevant, speaks in line with the Dhamma, speaks in line with the Vinaya. Why...? Because of not having wrongly inflicted suffering on another person through beating or imprisonment or confiscation or placing blame or banishment, [with the thought,] 'I have power. I want power.' When told what is factual, he acknowledges it and does not deny it. When told what is unfactual, he makes an ardent effort to untangle it [to see], 'This is unfactual. This is baseless.' That's why a person like this is called one who speaks at the right time, speaks what is factual, speaks what is relevant, speaks in line with the Dhamma, speaks in line with the Vinaya. "In a person like this, evil, unskillful qualities born of greed... born of aversion... born of delusion have been abandoned, their root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. He dwells in ease right in the here-&-now — feeling unthreatened, placid, unfeverish — and is unbound right in the here-&-now. "Just as if there were a sal tree, a birch, or an aspen, smothered & surrounded by three parasitic vines. A man would come along, carrying a spade & a basket. He would cut the vines at the root and, having cut them at the root, would dig around them. Having dug around them, he would pull them out, even down to the rootlets. He would cut the stalks of the vines. Having cut them, he would slice them into splinters. Having sliced them into splinters, he would pound them into bits. Having pounded them into bits, he would dry them in the wind & sun. Having dried them in the wind & sun, he would burn them in a fire. Having burned them in a fire, he would reduce them to powdered ash. Having reduced them to powdered ash, he would winnow them before a high wind or let them be washed away in a swift-flowing stream. In that way the parasitic vines would have their root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. "In the same way, in a person like this, evil, unskillful qualities born of greed... born of aversion... born of delusion have been abandoned, their root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. He dwells in ease right in the here-&-now — feeling unthreatened, placid, unfeverish — and is unbound right in the here-&-now. "These are the three roots of what is skillful." Notes 1. More suttas from AcessToInsight.org can be found here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html 2. This sutta can be found in full here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.069.than.html <...> #80547 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: I realise that you don't seek intruction from 'non-meditators', > which is good since I am in no way attempting to instruct you. I am > asking, as a 'non-meditator', how it is you know that your > interpretation of your Experience while 'meditating' is correct? I > read about the factors that inhere in, say, the First Jhaana. How > does one know that it is piiti, for example, that on experiences? > What is the experience of vitakka? Or vicaara? James: If you are really asking for information, rather than being argumentative, then you should get a copy of the Vism. (The Path of Purification) by Buddhaghosa. Read it from the beginning to the end and it will answer all of these questions you have. Metta, James ps. Excerpt from the Vism. are posted in this group but they seem to be always from the "Understanding" section and rarely from the sila and samadhi sections. The Vism. is predominately a meditation manual but you wouldn't know that from reading the posts in this group. #80548 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] - Nirodha sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Just picking up on any questions you raise: --- Alex wrote: > Proper Jhana. > > >>> >S: For those who do not obtain jhanas prior to insight/enlightenment, > other dhammas are the 'support'. > >>> > >A: Give examples please. Name 'em! ... S: Any dhamma presently appearing which is fully penetrated with insight. SN 35:3 'The Internal as Nonself' {see also 'The Internal as Impermanent'(1) and 'The Internal as Suffering' (2)), B.Bodhi transl." " "Bhikkhus, the eye is nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: 'this is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' "The ear is nonself.....The nose...The tongue....The body...The mind....What is non-self should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: 'this is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' "Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulstion towards the eye......ear.....mind. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: 'It's liberated.' He understands: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.' " " ..... <...> > > S: I would phrase this a little differently, but the point is that > as we > > read in the Yuganadha Sutta, 'tranquillity as a basis for insight' > or > > 'insight preceded by tranquillity' does not always occur. In fact, > I'd > > argue that it is only in exceptional cases, such as for some > disciples in > > the time of the Buddha or soon after. > >A: Jhana is a part of N8P. Are you saying that we have to follow only a > Noble Sevenfold path??? .... S: Samma samadhi, right concentration is a factor of the N8P. At moments of lokuttara (enlightenment), the path factors experience their object (nibbana) with an intensity equivalent to appana (absorption), therefore they are referred to as (lakkha.nupaanijjha-jhaana), on account of one of the three characteristics of a reality being fully penetrated as 'support' for enlightenment. [see sutta above again.] At such a moment it is not the jhana objects, such as breath or the kasinas that are experienced. In this case it is referred to aarammanupanijjha-jhaana, on account of the arammana or object of jhana. As I mentioned before, there are two kinds of jhana depending on the object and we have to be very clear of the context what is being referred to. [In fact, to be very precise, when jhana is the 'support' for enlightenment, there may be only a Noble Sevenfold Path, depending on the level of jhana.] .... >S: Such states > > are not seen with insight when jhana cittas are present, but only > when they have fallen away. [see end of sutta] > >> > >A: WHILE IN THE JHANA YOU SEE THAT. Even though you do not prolifirate > with thoughts, cognition and recognition IS PRESENT. ... S: You don't ask a question, but I can't resist emphasising again that you have this quite wrong. Yes, when jhana cittas arise, there is cognition and recognition (citta and sanna arising as usual). However, there is no insight at all at such moments. The object of the cognition and recognition is the object or nimitta, such as the kasina. On the other-hand, the object of insight is always a nama or a rupa, i.e a paramattha dhamma. .... > >S: Again, let me include B.Bodhi's note at the same point again where I > > paused to discuss: > > > > "The attainment of jhaana is samatha or tranquillity; the > contemplation of > > the constituent phenomena as impermanent, etc., is vipassanaa or > insight, according to AA [S: the sub-commentary, Tiika] ... [S: Correction: AA is the commentary to AN, not the sub-commentary] ... >S: 'powerful > insight-wisdom'. In this passage the Buddha explains how the > meditator develops insight using the jhaana as the basis for > contemplation. The meditator dissects the experience of jhaana into > the five aggregates (form, feeling, etc.), > >>> > > WHILE IN THE JHANA. ... S: No, Alex. There is no understanding of any of the khandhas whilst in jhana. .... <...> > > S: Conditions, especially natural decisive support condition are > very > > wide. Here, I understand these attainments to be support and natural > > decisive support condition for insight/enlightenment for those who > are > > already anagamis. > >>>> > > Just because only last 2 stages of awakening are mentioned, doesn't > mean that only there Nirodha can be reached. .... S: For me the commentaries and Abhidhamma explain the detail about nirodha samapatti as only being obtainable by anagamis and arahants very clearly. You reject this which is fine, but cannot find any textual support for your rejection anywhere. So let's leave this point. Thx for your other sutta passages which I'll look at later if I have time. Metta, Sarah ======== #80549 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Absorption 'Concentration' Vs Buddha's wise Jhanic Ecstasy sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > > S: Sorry, but ekaggata does mean concentration or one-pointedness. > It is a > > 'universal' mental factor which arises with every single citta. > >>> > > That is one of the difinitions of Ekagga(Calm, tranquil) ta. ... S: See the following messages in U.P. Concentration 2 (ekaggata) 41212, 41329, 41367, 41428, 42402, 42505, 56047, 77414 Ekaggata cetasika arises with every single citta, including akusala cittas. When there is anger or greed, there is ekaggata. No calm or tranquility at such moments. .... > > Anyways, even if you prefer to mistranslate it as Concentration. > Remember, the one pointedness is due to stillness & calm - NEVER > THROUGH FORCE. ... S: Calm or tranquillity is a support only when the citta is kusala (or kiriya for arahants). When concentration arises most of the day, there is no calm. ... > Remember, Buddha has NEVER taught access or momentary or (even > worse) fixed absorption 'concentration' which is more like aversion > rather than true insight. ... S: I think you are misunderstanding these terms. You often, often refer to the jhana. When there is jhana, there is absorption concentration (appana samadhi). There is never aversion with appana samadhi. I think we have to be more precise. .... <..> > > S: Yes, because the concentration is akusala - worse than useless! > > .... > > > > So do Jhana (Ecstasy) instead! Do it in a proper way as is said in > the suttas. ... S: No one *does* Jhana in anyway! Just conditioned states arising and falling away, Alex. No atta anywhere to be found or anything to *do*. ... <..> > > S: Definitely not. And if one has the illusion that concentrating > and concentrating will be of any value whatsoever on the path and > pursues such a practice, one goes further and further away from the > Teachings. > >>> > > If we refer to the state described in VsM and such, then I agree. > Buddha didn't teach concentration. He taught JHANA. ... S: He taught about all conditioned states arising and falling away and the development of detachment towards these, regardless of their qualities. It is this understanding and detachment or 'revulsion' which leads to the full understanding of the unconditioned state. Best wishes for a very Wise New Year! Metta, Sarah ======== #80550 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: For Sarah and Alex RE/ "Absorption Concentration" vs Buddhas wise Janic ecstasy. sarahprocter... Dear Ven Aggacitto & Alex, --- Alex wrote: > > HOMEWORK QUESTION!... > > What does the word Jhana mean? <...> > Contemplation, Meditation, Burning, are the other definitions. The > wost explanation is "Concentration". People who concentrate simply > cannot achieve true Ecstasy, they get headache instead... ... S: I think 'Burning' is the true meaning of Jhana, on account of the 'burning' of the sense objects through the suppression of attachment to them. I think Ecstasy is much more likely to be extreme attachment than anything else. I also tend to think that contemplation and meditation are not good definitions of jhana. What is your answer, Bhante? Metta, Sarah =========== #80551 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:00 pm Subject: Re: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] sarahprocter... Hi Alex again:-), --- Alex wrote: > > S: If we refer to kamma being stored, it tends to suggest something > > lasting or preserved. > >>> > >A: Something may last a long time but it is STILL IMPERMANENT. ... S: This is a conventional common understanding (mis-understanding) of impermanence, not the truth of anicca which refers to the impermanence of all conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away instantly. ... >The 8th > Jhanic sphere of existence lasts 84K MK if I remember correctly. Even > though that is a HUGE time - IT IS IMPERMANENT . ... S: Again you are referring to concepts and an ordinary idea about impermanence. There are only ever cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away. Anything else (apart from nibbana) is a concept, not a reality. ... > S: Cetana or kamma falls away like all other dhammas as > soon as it > has arisen. However, its 'force' is accumulated. As each citta > > conditions the next citta in an unbroken series of cittas, kamma > > can bring a result later. > > > > The latent tendency of greed is also accumulated. This tendency lies > > dormant until there are conditions for it to arise. If it is strong > > enough, it will lead to a course of kamma-patha which will bring its > > result(s) later. ... > Sarah, you are not saying anything I didn't say above. 'Storehouse' > (Alaya Vijnana ie) and accumulations are two different ways to > describe the same thing. The fact is that KAMMA stays until it brings > fruits or goes defunct. ... S: No, kamma is cetana cetasika which arises and falls away instantly. Nothing 'stays' or is 'stored'. However, by conditions, its fruit may arise later. I liked the way Howard put this once before when he stressed that 'Every subsequent occurrence of similar kamma is an additional force further conditioning future events'. ... >A:The next second does NOT undo past Kamma. > There is a relationship between Kamma & Kamm-vipaka. Things don't > just randomly happen. ... S: There has been no suggestion to the contrary. Metta, Sarah ======= #80552 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation sarahprocter... Dear Robert A, Thank you for considering my comments to you. I think this is an important topic and you raise very good points. --- Robert wrote: >S: I've heard friends raise comments like this with A.Sujin. She always > asks > what the reality is that is known at such times. Indeed, what is the > reality now? If there's no understanding now of dhammas appearing, very > precisely, then any 'silent observation' will not be sati or panna. > ------ > R: What is the quality of that 'moment of seeing' you cite? If there > are > moments when our minds have the capacity to see what we could not see > before, how does that become possible? ... S: It becomes possible when awareness and understanding have been developed and when there is an appreciation that there are only dhammas appearing, just one at a time. The 'quality' is that at such moments just that dhamma is apparent, such as the visible object or sound or hardness or the citta which experiences one of these. It's clear that this is the 'world' at such a moment, no thinking about it. For example, if it's visible object, it's just that characteristic of visible object which is seen, nothing else. Such awareness is also just an ordinary dhamma which falls away. If there's any clinging to past or future awareness, we're led astray again. ... >R: In my previous exchange with > Nina, my understanding was she believes this capacity arises from > listening > to Dhamma, but you seem to disagree with this: ... S: If there has not been listening to Dhamma and careful consideration of the quality of such realities, it's impossible for right understanding to arise. However, it's not a question of 'quantity' of reading or listening in a conventional sense. .... >S: The message they hear is exactly the same message as those who are Pali > experts hear. 'Is there seeing now? Is there visible object now? Is > there > awareness of it now?'. > ------ > R: You seem to be saying there is no preparation for seeing. ... S: The 'preparation' is the careful consideration of dhammas now, regardless of our circumstances. This has to be a consideration with understanding and detachment, not a trying to understand or a wishing for any particular result. .... >R:You just > do > it. But later you seem to be agreeing with Nina that the preparation > for > seeing is listening to Dhamma. .... S: The point to be stressed is that there really is no 'you' or 'me' to do anything. Even such listening to Dhamma, such careful consideration are just conditioned cittas and cetasikas. I think that a growing appreciation of dhammas as anatta is a condition for patience to develop as well - it becomes clearer and clearer than on one can exert any control over them, so what's the use of trying? ... > ----- > S: Without hearing or studying what is real now, there can never be any > awareness or understanding of these realities. This is why it needs a > Buddha to point out the truths. <..> > R: I believe that seeing doesn't just happen - there is a path to > awakening > which is the path that gives rise to this capacity to see. ... S: Yes. It is the Path beginning with samma ditthi, right understanding. Always coming back to an understanding of dhammas now. .. >R:What I am > hearing > is that you and Nina both believe that path to be primarily or > exclusively > listening to Dhamma and nothing else you do has much bearing on > developing this capacity to see clearly. ... S: Yes, it is the listening and careful consideration about dhammas, about the Truths, about the Path which is the condition for such a capacity to 'see clearly'. Whether or not the listening or study is useful depends on whether it will lead to a right understanding now or to a wrong practice. This is why the careful consideration is very important too. Awareness can arise anytime, very briefly and rt understanding can begin to know the difference between moments with and without such awareness. ... >R:Never mind 'who' is seeing > clearly, > but you will agree that clear seeing must arise for understanding to > arise, > right? ... S: I'd say that understanding and 'clear seeing' are the same. Of course there are degrees and different kinds of such understanding or 'seeing'. .... >R: So, does that clear seeing arise from listening to Dhamma, that > this > is the practice? ... S: Yes, clear seeing arises from 'right' listening and considering. In other words, what you've described is patipatti (right practice) developing from pariyatti (right theory of the Dhamma as applied to present dhammas). ... >R: With appreciation for your persistence in explaining things to me, ... S: With appreciation for your patience and persistence in seeking clarification. Your questions are excellent ones and helpful for us all. Metta, Sarah ======== #80553 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. corvus121 Hello DC Thank you for your post. There is never any need to hurry to reply. I do hope you and your son are having an enjoyable time. As usual, a few more questions have popped up below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > Saddhaa on the other hand is based on knowledge. What we normally call knowledge. For a householder it (Buddhist saddhaa) is the knowledge that good actions bring good results and evil actions bring evil results. But this is not the so-called 'kamma theory'. What is good here is defined as what is socially accepted. For example, lying is not accepted by any society as good or right. Similarly the others. Basically the idea is to live in a harmonious society. But dhamma goes one step further. The final criterion for this is not to do anything by word or by deed of even by mind something that is harmful to you or the other(s). Or the converse, do only things that are beneficial to you and the other. You learn this by actual experience. I'll give an example. Suppose your telephone rings and you are lazy to answer it. You tell your wife to say that you are not at home or something. Then may be he rings your son, who tells him that you are at home. Your > friend loses trust in you. You learn that it is not good to lie even in such circumstances. I hope you get the idea behind my reasoning. Now here is a counterargument: At one time killing say elephants in Africa was a sport. It is no more so. So killing is good today, tomorrow it is evil. Well yes, that is true of all human ethical systems. Therefore all religions. And true of Buddhism as well. Andrew: I had the impression that certain actions (like lying and killing) are *always* akusala. You seem to be saying here that, in the context of saddhaa action for worldlings, the akusala nature of an action is not the focus. The focus is upon conforming with current social ethics so that there is friendliness and lack of conflict with society. This in turn frees the mind from fear and worry and allows it to be contented and then concentrated. Have I correctly interpreted this? DC: This is where dhamma comes in. The purpose of living ethically in Dhamma is not to attain a good life here or hereafter; no doubt it is a consequence. The purpose is that takes away worry and fear from you. And you have only firendliness towards the whole world. You are at peace with the world; you are contented. Such a mind does not hanker after anything. The moment you are finished with the hustle bustle of living; eating drinking and so on, the mind is not perturbed. If at this time you concentrate on some 'good' object, all the hindrances (niiavarana) will be > gone. Your mind gets concentrated. The result according to the Dhamma is jhaana. This is a causal process. From here the transition from the human(manussa) to higher than human (uttarimanussadhamma) or ariya starts. Siila-samaadhi-pa~n~naa. Samaadhi is the centre of the path. Andrew: I'm not sure about this view of siila. If I know that a socially-acceptable action is akusala, I don't see how my mind could be put at ease by conforming with it for the sake of friendliness. I would worry that, notwithstanding what everyone else in society thinks, I was still doing "the wrong thing". I'm sure I have missed the point you were making. Perhaps you can point out where? DC: [I did not want to use mundane and supramundane because there is nothing supramundane or transcendental in the Dhamma. After all the Buddha and all the arahants were 'human beings'] Andrew: Yes, indeed. But some of them had ariyaa iddhi which sound rather transcendental to the modern scientific ear. I recently read a sutta where the Buddha was on Vulture Peak and magically (?) appeared to a bhikkhu a long way away. How are we to interpret these passages? DC: Understanding Dhamma is not to be able to repeat the tipitaka by memory. That is Amuulika saddhaa. There is the famous story of the monk 'tuccho p.thila'-He knew the tipitaka by heart. But that is all. The Buddha called him tuccho po.thila meaning-empty-headed, fool etc. Andrew: How true! Rote learning does not necessarily foster understanding. But I wonder, would it be fair to think that there were many other bhikkhus who knew the tipitaka by heart (or were at least very learned in it) and who also had understanding? DC: You learn about your mind by observing your own mind. The whole of satipa.t.thaanasutta is on this. The sutta that is described as the only way, sole way etc. From another angle this is: sammaa vaayaama, sammaa sati and sammaa samaadhi of the Ariyan-Eightfold path. If you look at the path carefully, sammaa vaaca, sammaa kammanta, sammaa aajiiva is connected with sila (may be even sammaa sankappa can be classified as siila), That is about the purity of actions by word, deed, and the former three about the purity of the mind. Andrew: Excellent! Thank you for your explanation. Best wishes Andrew #80554 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] For New Comers To Buddhism -(was Re: Concept and Reality: Another Look(brief) nilovg Dear Suan, I appreciate your sincere post. I know you have little time and so I am glad when you come in. Op 27-dec-2007, om 16:55 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > As you might have already known all along, when we verbalised a > profound experience such as seeing purely a form in this context, > our verbalisation may not match the experience in question. This can > lead to listeners to (or readers of) our verbalisation > misunderstanding our position or being unable to capture the point > we were trying to make. -------- N: This is a good point. You were speaking of removing right effort and right concentration by some members of dsg, and I am glad you speak about this. Misunderstandings can easily arise because of verbalisation and it is very good when you bring out such points. Right effort and right concentration are Path factors and they support right understanding of the eightfold Path. They are cetasikas and so long as people do not forget this, there is no problem. The question is, we know in theory that these are cetasikas, but what about the practice? Is there not a surreptious clinging to an idea of: I make an effort? Or: I concentrate on nama and rupa? Nina. #80555 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] For New Comers To Buddhism -(was Re: Concept and Reality: Another Look(brief) sarahprocter... Dear Suan, Thanks for your comments. --- abhidhammika wrote: > Sarah, I am sure that you are not a new comer to Buddhism, but I > think it is about time that you checked if the version of Buddhism > you embraced conformed to the Full And Original Version Of Buddhism > known as Theravada Buddhism. It is never too late to rectify any > mistakes and misrepresentations you may have made due to being > misled by putthujjana teachers. Trying to get some support from > Buddhist monks like Sayadaw U Tejaniya and Venerable Pannabahulo > would not help your cause. Defending the indefensible never works. ... S: I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to, but just to clarify, I haven't tried 'to get support from Buddhist monks like Sayadaw U Tejaniya and Venerable Pannabahulo'. I encourage everyone to share their comments here (regardless of whether I agree with them or not) and forwarded the letters from Ven P and the article from the Sayadaw at his request, not because I agree with the content. I'm certainly not 'defending' it. In fact, I'd like to encourage you, Suan, to write your detailed comments on the letters/articles. Pls address them here to 'Ven. Pannabahulo', not to me. As Dieter would say, I'm just the messenger:-). I'll make sure any replies, such as the ones Nina and Howard kindly gave, are brought to his attention. ... > The ability to consult Abhidhamma and Anatta doctrine does not > necessarily protect you from deviating the Noble Eightfold Path. .... S: No. The only protection is the development of right understanding. We certainly agree on this. Thanks for sharing your other comments too, Suan. A very Happy and Wise New Year! Metta, Sarah ========= #80556 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:27 am Subject: Perfections Corner (66) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness (continued) If we only consider the outward appearance of our deeds, attachment and loving-kindness seem to be similar. When we perform a good deed for the sake of someone who is close to us, whom we respect and love, it seems that this is motivated by kusala, by mettaa. However, why can we not be kind in the same way to someone else, no matter who he is? If there is true mettaa it should be exactly the same whether we perform an act of kindness to someone who is close to us, with whom we are familiar, or to a person we are not familiar with. If there is true mettaa, if we want to develop the perfection of mettaa, we should not restrict mettaa to particular persons. When we limit mettaa, we should investigate the characteristic of the citta at that moment, we should know whether it is kusala citta or akusala citta. We read in the Tipi.taka {*} that performing deeds with mettaa is like the conduct of a mother towards her child. If we look at the outward appearance of deeds we may wonder whether a mother has true mettaa or whether she has just selfish affection for her child. She has to sacrifice everything for her child when she takes care of him. Sometimes the child is dirty and disagreeable to touch, but she still takes care of him. We should consider whether a mother has true mettaa for her child, or whether she has only selfish affection. A mother should know her own cittas, she should be truthful with regard to reality: kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala. {*} For example, in the "Minor Readings", IX, "The Loving Kindness Discourse". It is right that the Tipi.taka explains about mettaa as being the same as a mother's conduct towards her child. However, we should remember that a mother's attachment to her child is not mettaa. If one can have the same conduct towards other people as a mother's selfless loving care for her child, then we practise mettaa. When we see someone else who is kind to a stranger, to someone who is not close to him, we should not wonder why he acts thus, because true mettaa is not restricted to particular people. All people are equal, no matter whether they are close to us or not, no matter whether we know them or not. Did we in our daily life assist others with generosity? If we wish for their wellbeing and happiness, we have loving-kindness towards them. When someone experiences sorrow, when he suffers, we may have compassion and wish that he will be free from suffering. When we wish to help a person who is sick and who suffers pains, when we want to take care of him, we have compassion: we wish that person to be free from suffering. === to be continued, connie #80557 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:28 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (72) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 16 15. Cattaaliisanipaato 1. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 424. "Bhikkhaaya ca vicaranta.m, damaka.m danta.m me pitaa bha.nati; hohisi me jaamaataa, nikkhipa po.t.thi~nca gha.tika~nca. 422. And my father spoke to one who was wandering for alms, a tamer [of others] and [self-]tamed, "Be my son-in-law. Throw away your cloth and bowl." Damakanti kaaru~n~naadhi.t.thaanataaya paresa.m cittassa damaka.m. Yathaa pare ki~nci dassanti, eva.m attano kaaya.m vaaca~nca danta.m vuupasanta.m katvaa paradattabhikkhaaya vicara.naka.m. Jaamaataati duhitupati. Nikkhipa po.t.thi~nca gha.tika~ncaati tayaa paridahita.m pilotikaakha.n.da~nca bhikkhaakapaala~nca cha.d.dehi. 422. A tamer means: a tamer of the minds of others through the basis of compassion. In order that others would give something, he was [self-]tamed, having made [himself] calm, physically and verbally; he was one who moves about [living] through the alms given by others. Son-in-law means: the husband of my daughter. Throw away your cloth (po.t.thi.m) and bowl (gha.tika.m) means: abandon your piece of rag for clothing and your bowl for alms (bhikkhaa-dapaalam). 425. "Sopi vasitvaa pakkha.m, atha taata.m bha.nati 'dehi me po.t.thi.m; gha.tika~nca mallaka~nca, punapi bhikkha.m carissaami'. 423. He too, having lived [with me] for a fortnight, then said to my father, "Give me my cloth and bowl and cup. I will wander for alms again." Sopi vasitvaa pakkhanti sopi bhikkhako puriso mayaa saddhi.m addhamaasamatta.m vasitvaa pakkaami. 423. He too, having lived [with me] for a fortnight means: he too, the mendicant man, having lived together with me for only half a month, went away. 426. "Atha na.m bha.natii taato, ammaa sabbo ca me ~naatiga.navaggo; ki.m te na kiirati idha, bha.na khippa.m ta.m te karihiti. 424. Then my father, mother, and all the group of my relatives said to him, "What has not been done for you here? Tell [us] quickly. She will do that for you." Atha na.m bha.natii taatoti ta.m bhikkhaka.m mama pitaa maataa sabbo ca me ~naatiga.no vaggavaggo hutvaa bha.nati. Katha.m? Ki.m te na kiirati idha tuyha.m ki.m naama na kirati na saadhiyati, bha.na khippa.m. Ta.m te karihitiiti ta.m tuyha.m karissati. 424. Then my father, [mothe, and all the group of my relatives] said to him means: my father, mother, and all the multitude of my relatives [coming] in groups said to that mendicant. What did they say? "What has not been done (kiirati) for you here?" What has not been done (kirati), not accomplished, for you? Tell [us] quickly. She will do (karihiti) that for you means: she will do (karissati) that for you. 427. "Eva.m bha.nito bha.nati, yadi me attaa sakkoti ala.m mayha.m; isidaasiyaa na saha vaccha.m, ekaghareha.m saha vatthu.m. 425. Spoken to in this way, he said, "If I were able to [support] myself, I would have no use for Isidaasii. I will not live together [with her], living in the same house." Yadi me attaa sakkotiiti yadi mayha.m attaa attaadhiino bhujisso ca hoti, ala.m mayha.m isidaasiyaa taaya payojana.m natthi, tasmaa na saha vaccha.m na saha vasissa.m, ekaghare aha.m taaya saha vatthunti yojanaa. 425. If I were able (sakkoti) to [support] myself means: if I myself were independent and a free man, I would have no use for Isidaasii, she serves no purpose [for me]. Therefore, I will not live (vaccha.m) together, I will not live (vasissa.m) together, living together she and I, that is the implication. == to be continued, connie #80558 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:39 am Subject: Re: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - In a message dated 12/28/2007 2:00:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Alex again:-), --- Alex wrote: > > S: If we refer to kamma being stored, it tends to suggest something > > lasting or preserved. > >>> > >A: Something may last a long time but it is STILL IMPERMANENT. ... S: This is a conventional common understanding (mis-understanding) of impermanence, not the truth of anicca which refers to the impermanence of all conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away instantly. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I can think of two senses in which all (conditioned) dhammas can be thought of as falling away instantly: a) Every dhamma when it exists, does so not as an independent thing-in-itself, but as a thing-in-relation, and "changes" in anything are, relationally, "changes" in everything. b) Continuous change, on the one hand, and instantaneous change (i.e., falling away followed by arising in an infinitesimal moment), on the other hand, are actually one and the same but thought of and expressed differently. But the "particulate, discrete, film-frame" view of anicca espoused by the students of Khun Sujin (and in some Mahayanist writings, and by some other Theravadins including a number of American "insight meditation" teachers such as Joseph Goldstein) doesn't seem to me to appear in the Tipitaka. In particular, I don't recall having seen it in suttas. Is it widespread in the suttas, and can you provide clear examples of it in the Buddha's teaching? -------------------------------------------------------------------- ... >The 8th > Jhanic sphere of existence lasts 84K MK if I remember correctly. Even > though that is a HUGE time - IT IS IMPERMANENT . ... S: Again you are referring to concepts and an ordinary idea about impermanence. There are only ever cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away. Anything else (apart from nibbana) is a concept, not a reality. ... > S: Cetana or kamma falls away like all other dhammas as > soon as it > has arisen. However, its 'force' is accumulated. As each citta > > conditions the next citta in an unbroken series of cittas, kamma > > can bring a result later. > > > > The latent tendency of greed is also accumulated. This tendency lies > > dormant until there are conditions for it to arise. If it is strong > > enough, it will lead to a course of kamma-patha which will bring its > > result(s) later. ... > Sarah, you are not saying anything I didn't say above. 'Storehouse' > (Alaya Vijnana ie) and accumulations are two different ways to > describe the same thing. The fact is that KAMMA stays until it brings > fruits or goes defunct. ... S: No, kamma is cetana cetasika which arises and falls away instantly. Nothing 'stays' or is 'stored'. However, by conditions, its fruit may arise later. I liked the way Howard put this once before when he stressed that 'Every subsequent occurrence of similar kamma is an additional force further conditioning future events'. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for the "plaudit", Sarah. (But, as you can see from what I wrote above, I can still be "trouble"! ;-) Actually, both of the positions, a) and b), that I described above, are meaningful to me, and I am rather much of a radical "annica-ist" (or "non-remainderist"). But I shy away from "atomism", as I see it as a form of discrete realism that reifies and solidifies and misses the true radical, middle-way insubstantialism of reality. ---------------------------------------------------------- ... >A:The next second does NOT undo past Kamma. > There is a relationship between Kamma & Kamm-vipaka. Things don't > just randomly happen. ... S: There has been no suggestion to the contrary. Metta, Sarah ============================== With metta, Howard #80559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:58 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 8, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, During our pilgrimages in India we always discussed the perfections, påramís, accumulated by the Buddha during his lives as a Bodhisatta. The perfections are most important, because if they are not developed together with satipatthåna defilements cannot be eradicated. Each of the perfections helps to eliminate the clinging to the idea of self and they can support the paññå which can eventually eradicate all defilements. The perfections are: liberality, morality, renunciation, wisdom, energy, patience, truthfulness, resolution, loving kindness and equanimity. These qualities are only perfections when they are developed without thinking to gain something for oneself. They should be developed with the aim of having less selfishness, less defilements. Acharn Sujin explained that we should not think, "Now I shall develop this perfection, then that", because then we try to develop them with an idea of self. The development of the perfections is conditioned by listening to the Dhamma. If we do not listen and study there is a concept of self who performs kusala. She said: "When we listen to the Dhamma there is the perfection of patience already. There can be perfections at each moment of our life, and there is no need to think of a specific perfection. There can be more patience. We accumulate the perfections and see ever more clearly the ugliness of akusala. However, when there are conditions, akusala arises." Dåna is opposed to lobha, dosa and moha. When we are generous, there is alobha, non-attachment, otherwise we would not be able to give. There is also adosa, non-aversion: there is no aversion or sadness when the receiver is unkind and does not appreciate our gift. When we are angry, we are absorbed in an idea of a person instead of being aware of nåma and rúpa. At the moment of generosity there cannot be moha, the cetasika arising with all akusala cittas. All perfections are opposed to lobha, dosa and moha. When satipatthåna arises at the moments we perform wholesome deeds, the idea of self who performs them can be eliminated. When mettå arises, there is also patience, patience with regard to people and circumstances. In Savatthí we had a bad hotel room full of insects everywhere, even in bed. One of our friends laughed about it that these crawled into her ears. Acharn Sujin reminded me that if we would complain and ask for a change of room, someone else would have the uncomfortable room and thus, we would have lack of mettå, we would think of ourselves instead of other people. When we see the value of mettå we can develop it. We can understand that whatever happens arises because of conditions. Akusala kamma conditions akusala vipåka and kusala kamma conditions kusala vipåka, nobody can prevent this. Sometimes we have to experience an unpleasant object and sometimes a pleasant object. We admired Acharn Sujin's great patience when she had to pose for the cameras countless times. Sometimes she could not take any step without the cameras being focussed on her. She told me that she just thinks of the happiness of others. Thus, mettå conditions patience. When we were in Kusinåra, in the temple of the reclining Buddha, we recollected the Buddha's parinibbåna. Ever since the moment of his enlightenment until his passing away he had taught satipatthåna, the only way leading to the end of the cycle of birth and death, and he himself had reached the end of the cycle. The monk held a long discourse and it was extremely hot in this temple. Acharn Sujin reminded me that we should have mettå for the monk who held the discourse. If there is mettå we have no aversion. ****** Nina. #80560 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation avalo1968 Hello Sarah, We have come to our usual impasse, but getting to this point is always useful for me. Every time we do it, I get to look at the question from a slightly different perspective and that always leaves me with something to work with going forward. > > R: You seem to be saying there is no preparation for seeing. > ... > S: The 'preparation' is the careful consideration of dhammas now, > regardless of our circumstances. This has to be a consideration with > understanding and detachment, not a trying to understand or a wishing for > any particular result. > .... Robert A: So, things such as generousity, virtue, or patience have no bearing on the development of this capacity for clear seeing? I believe what you are saying is that these are qualities that arise as a result of clear seeing, not things that promote its development. Only the careful consideration of dhammas can do that. > S: The point to be stressed is that there really is no 'you' or 'me' to do > anything. Even such listening to Dhamma, such careful consideration are > just conditioned cittas and cetasikas. I think that a growing appreciation > of dhammas as anatta is a condition for patience to develop as well - it > becomes clearer and clearer than on one can exert any control over them, > so what's the use of trying? > ... Robert A: Listening to Dhamma is something 'you' choose to do and sometimes 'you' go to great lengths to do it, such as traveling to Bangkok or India to see Khun Sujin and listen to her speak. You do this for a purpose, which is to aid this development of clear seeing we have been talking about. > > R: I believe that seeing doesn't just happen - there is a path to > > awakening > > which is the path that gives rise to this capacity to see. > ... > S: Yes. It is the Path beginning with samma ditthi, right understanding. > Always coming back to an understanding of dhammas now. Robert A: So, you are saying someone totally lost in a typical modern life is going to hear Dhamma and from this the beginning of samma ditthi will arise. Samma sankappa will arise from this kernal of samma ditthi. Here is where we go separate ways. I would say that this person can hear about the Noble Eightfold Path, hear about samma samkappa, and resolve to change the way he lives his life to bring more renunciation, lovingkindness, and compassion into it. You would say there is no 'him', only dhammas, and so as soon as he makes this kind of resolution, he is gone to self-view and all is lost. Yet, if you resolve to travel to Bangkok to hear Khun Sujin speak, this somehow is magically exempt from the self-view trap that makes all other volitional actions not useful. > >R:What I am > > hearing > > is that you and Nina both believe that path to be primarily or > > exclusively > > listening to Dhamma and nothing else you do has much bearing on > > developing this capacity to see clearly. > ... > S: Yes, it is the listening and careful consideration about dhammas, about > the Truths, about the Path which is the condition for such a capacity to > 'see clearly'. Robert A: Listening and careful consideration of dhammas and nothing else, so practicing right speech and right action has no bearing on the matter. You would say that right speech and right action arose from the clear seeing, not aided in its development. > Whether or not the listening or study is useful depends on whether it will > lead to a right understanding now or to a wrong practice. This is why the > careful consideration is very important too. > > Awareness can arise anytime, very briefly and rt understanding can begin > to know the difference between moments with and without such awareness. > ... > >R:Never mind 'who' is seeing > > clearly, > > but you will agree that clear seeing must arise for understanding to > > arise, > > right? > ... > S: I'd say that understanding and 'clear seeing' are the same. Of course > there are degrees and different kinds of such understanding or 'seeing'. > .... I am not sure I agree with this. I have always had the belief that there is a quality of awareness that is a condition for understanding and this is what I call 'clear seeing'. I also believe that there are things you can do, such as change the way you live your life, to aid the development of this quality of awareness. In the end, this remains the key to our disagreement. > >R: So, does that clear seeing arise from listening to Dhamma, that > > this > > is the practice? > ... > S: Yes, clear seeing arises from 'right' listening and considering. In > other words, what you've described is patipatti (right practice) > developing from pariyatti (right theory of the Dhamma as applied to > present dhammas). > ... Yes, listening and considering, but I am afraid I am not ready to concede that there is nothing else beyond listening and considering. I believe you and Nina have done all you can to help me resolve this question and from here I will have to work it out for myself. But I thank you very much for your assistance in at least clarifying the question. Have a very Happy New Year. You in Hong Kong have the good fortune to be able to celebrate New Years a couple of times every year. Robert A. #80561 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply (I appreciate the discussion): Howard: "Scott, I cannot know for sure, for I don't know what the criterion for 'knowing' would be other than a sense of rightness that continues, and we cannot know when the continuing will stop. Mistakes do occur, but, often, one realizes them and moves on from there. So far, what I have learned from the Buddha has been confirmed to the extent I have followed up on it, and it has not yet in any way been contradicted by my experience. I do have strong faith in his teaching. But, in the final analysis, I have to go along with the Korean Son master in his urging 'Only don't know" - for I do not know.'" Scott: I've had to learn this last urging as well -not in a Dhamma context - and I think it is Good. To me, this was something I had to come to in work as a psychotherapist. Things go on anyway. Better to Accept Not Knowing. Learning of the beautifully intertwining of Characteristics Of Things - anicca, anatta, dukkha - gave substance to why 'Not Knowing' is Best but because, to me, this confirms that 'I' am Superfluous and Epiphenomenal. When I learn that Understanding is a function of a particular dhamma over which I have No Control, I'm even More Pleased. I have learned, and with this you might disagree, to be Cautious when it comes to 'A Sense of Rightness'. I might feel it but what is it, I ask myself? This 'sense of rightness' could be conditioned by any number of dhammas, and not all of them kusala. How can one be sure? I'd say being Mislead is more often the case in samsaara, and no more often than a Constant Sense of Rightness. If someone tells me to 'Meditate', and then can't show me how what they are referring to as 'meditate' is anything more Howard: "When we depend on the teaching and testimony of others, what we base that reliance on is in fact our own reason and experience, and, thus, in the final analysis, we do not, and really cannot, put any head above our own." Scott: Howard: "In the past I did, I am certain, experience jhana. Not only did it match up, but it was 'dramatic'. More recently, while there still is a matching up, the drama is gone and unmissed, and I'm less interested in characterizing or naming aspects of my meditative experience. I do find a growth in calm, clarity, and ease of introspection as I live my life, and most of all, a growth of love and happiness - and I am grateful for that, and, for the moment at least, satisfied with it." Scott: Fair enough. I'm not sure how these latter, and as I said to James, laudable, aspects of life - calm, clarity, and ease of introspection - are necessarily a function of 'meditation' - at least the sort described in the suttas. I think this modern 'meditation' must be like Thinking About Things and Feeling Things, according to how it is being told to me. For example, I've had what I consider to have been a thorough and rather deep-going psychoanalysis (of about six years duration all told). I can honestly say that 'a growth in calm, clarity, and ease of introspection' were the result. In fact psychoanalysis is the Ultimate Introspection - talk about Self-Involved. This cannot be 'meditation' taught by the Buddha, since its founder was a brilliant Austrian Jew. And yet we are discussing the same effects. Any thoughts? Sincerely, Scott. #80562 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Sorry, I sent too soon. I forgot to finish: ...If someone tells me to 'Meditate', and then can't show me how what they are referring to as 'meditate' is anything more than thinking about myself and feeling things, I'm not going to do it on that account. James has sent me to Visuddhimagga to learn about 'Meditation'. I'll see what I find. Howard: "When we depend on the teaching and testimony of others, what we base that reliance on is in fact our own reason and experience, and, thus, in the final analysis, we do not, and really cannot, put any head above our own." Scott: I don't trust 'my own reason' and 'experience' is Deceptive. Sincerely, Scott. #80563 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: James: "If you are really asking for information, rather than being argumentative, then you should get a copy of the Vism. (The Path of Purification) by Buddhaghosa. Read it from the beginning to the end and it will answer all of these questions you have." Scott: When it comes to this, I am Totally and Unapologetically Argumentative. And so are you (see below). J: "ps. Excerpt from the Vism. are posted in this group but they seem to be always from the "Understanding" section and rarely from the sila and samadhi sections. The Vism. is predominately a meditation manual but you wouldn't know that from reading the posts in this group." Scott: So there. This notwithstanding, let's look at Visuddhimagga. I'm curious though, as a preamble, how you can accept Buddhagosa's commentaries, since it is Clear to me that he is a Complete and Utter Proponent of No-Control. His language must be, therefore, of the Ordinary Variety, while meaning to refer to Ultimate Realities At All Times. Here's a Start. Visuddhimagga (p.p.85-86): "...(ii) IN WHAT SENSE IS IT CONCENTRATION? It is concentration (samaadhi) in the sense of concentrating (samaadhaana). What is this concentrating? It is the centering (aadhaana) of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly (sama.m) and rightly (sammaa) on a single object; placing is what is meant. So it is the state in virtue of which consciousness and its concomitants remain evenly and rightly on a single object, undistracted and unscattered, that should be understood as concentrating. "(iii) WHAT ARE ITS CHARACTERISTIC, FUNCTION, MANIFESTATION, AND PROXIMATE CAUSE? Concentration has non-distraction as its characteristic. Its function is to eliminate distraction. It is manifested as non-wavering. Because of the words 'Being blissful, his mind becomes concentrated' (D.i.73), its proximate cause is bliss. "(iv) HOW MANY KINDS OF CONCENTRATION ARE THERE? (1) First of all it is of one kind with the characteristic of non-distraction. (2) Then it is of two kinds as access and absorption; (3) likewise as mundane and supramundane, (4) as with happiness and without happiness, and (5) as accompanied by bliss and accompanied by equanimity. It is of three kinds (6) as inferior, medium, and superior; likewise (7) as with applied thought and sustained thought, etc., (8) as accompanied by happiness etc., and (9) as limited, exalted, and measureless. It is of four kinds (10) as of difficult progress and sluggish direct knowledge, etc.; likewise (11) as limited with limited object, etc., (12) according to the factors of the four jhaanas, (13) as partaking of diminution, etc., (14) of the sense sphere, etc., and (15) as predominance, and so on. (16) It is of five kinds according to the factors of the five jhaanas reckoned by the fivefold method." Scott: Right off the bat we are dealing with the Concentration - cittass' ekaggataa, samahdindriya.m. This is, according to Dhammasa"nga.ni: "The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is the absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and power of concentration, right concentration..." Any thoughts? Sincerely, Scott. #80564 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hello Andrew, But I like to reply early; I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. I am doing the thing I like most; discussing dhamma. I am having a good time with my son. He is a computer engineer. My hobby is computing. That is the second most enjoyable thing for me. You wrote: " Andrew: I had the impression that certain actions (like lying and killing) are *always* akusala. You seem to be saying here that, in the context of saddhaa action for worldlings, the akusala nature of an action is not the focus. The focus is upon conforming with current social ethics so that there is friendliness and lack of conflict with society. This in turn frees the mind from fear and worry and allows it to be contented and then concentrated. Have I correctly interpreted this?" DC: Your interpretation is right. With respect to 'akusala', I want to make an observation: They (killing, lying etc.) certainly are 'akusala' always. But we don't KNOW that. We can have an impression only, but we can never be certain. We can have a belief, but not 'knowledge' in the sense of Dhamma. Belief is to think that something is true without proof. Take the example of thiestic religions again: You can kill for your religion; you can kill for food; you can kill for sacrifice and so on. Only Dhamma maintains that killing etc. is always evil. But we don't know dhamma by 'direct experience'. We hear it from somebody (today read). Later you wrote: " Andrew: I'm not sure about this view of siila. If I know that a socially-acceptable action is akusala, I don't see how my mind could be put at ease by conforming with it for the sake of friendliness. I would worry that, notwithstanding what everyone else in society thinks, I was still doing "the wrong thing". I'm sure I have missed the point you were making. Perhaps you can point out where?" DC: If you know that something is akusala, then you have heard of the dhamma. And you have accepted it, BECAUSE, it agrees with your observation of that matter. In other words, personally experienced. Take again the question of killing and war; now if one is against killing one obviously would be against war. Then when a war is on and you refuse to go to war, the society would take you to be a traitor. Then either you have to leave the society (they will harm you, harass you and may be even put you in jail) or else go to war. The choice is entirely yours. This is the reason why you need to 'leave-home-for-homelessness' if you really want to follow the Ariyan-Eightfold-Path. That is 'the path' for the bhikkhus. For those who are householders, it is not possible to follow that path. Take the case of a king. He will have to order people to be hung; he will have fight and kill enemy kings. I think I did not think of this situation when I wrote that bit. Sorry for that. Householders will have to lead a mixed life (kusala and akusala) until they become ariyas. Then there siila becomes absolute. Let me summarise the argument again. As puthujjanas (worldlings) we can't live in this world without doing akusala. So if we want kusala (the absolute) we need to leave home-for-homelessness. By the way an arahant is a 'kusalo', or only kusala, because he has eliminated lobha (greed), dosa (hatred), and moha (delusion). Please see whether you can make sense out of what I have written. It is a difficult point : That Buddhist path for the bhikkhu is not the ariyan-eightfoldpath. A householder is a 'gihii kaamabhogii' -- he is enjoying sensual pleasures. Those who can't even leave home, how can they leave samsaara!!! "Andrew: How true! Rote learning does not necessarily foster understanding. But I wonder, would it be fair to think that there were many other bhikkhus who knew the tipitaka by heart (or were at least very learned in it) and who also had understanding?" DC: Until the Tipi.taka was committed to writing it was transmitted verbally. The bhikkhus who transmitted were known by two words: ...dhara, example, dhammadhara; ...bhaanaka, diighabhaanaka etc. Even today there are bhikkhus in Burma who can recite the Tipitaka by memory. "Andrew: Yes, indeed. But some of them had ariyaa iddhi which sound rather transcendental to the modern scientific ear. I recently read a sutta where the Buddha was on Vulture Peak and magically (?) appeared to a bhikkhu a long way away. How are we to interpret these passages?" DC: They are not transcendental. These iddhis are a natural development of the mind. Have you heard of Yuri Geller; then there was Arigo, the surgeon of the rusted knife. Today Tibetan lamas are being tested at Harvard. They are all mundane-and belong to this world. There is nothing called transcendental in Dhamma. By the way modern Hindu teachers like 'Sai Baba', 'Mahaarshi Sri Ramana', 'Sri Ramakrishna' had these powers. If you read venerable bhikkhus of the the Thai Forest Tradition, you'll come across this sort of phenomena. Modern science is totally clueless when it comes to the mind . They don't know what it is even. And the same is true of us (unless we are ariyans) since we look up to science for understanding of the mind. This leads to one of the most important concepts in Dhamma. That is a human being (more accurately a being) is dukkhakkhanda or the five-aggregates of grasping. (1st Noble Truth). It is a composite of 'nameform' "Naamaruupa". Scientifically, or mathematically we can think of a human being as a two dimensional entity. One dimension is a mind and the other is matter. This naamaruupa is a process--not in the sense of physical processes; but in the sense of conditioning as given in pa.ticca-samuppaada. This must be distinguished from physical causality. Our understanding of causality is based on a physical or substantialist world. The world of dhamma is a non-substantial flux of experience. So scientists and Dhamma are speaking two different languages. This is my way of understanding the Dhamma without interpreting it. I am sure I have not made myself very clear. But that is because of my inadequacy. So please comeback with all the loopholes you can find in what I have written. However, I think we would be able to do a better job if we go through the Dhammacakkappavattan together, sentence by sentence, word by word. I want to ask you a personal question. What is your background? Social sciences, or physical sciences, maths or logic. My background is engineering, leaning more towards theory and mathematics, computing and so on. But during the last few years I have veered towards philosophy and languages. Kind regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #80565 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/28/2007 11:58:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Thanks for the reply (I appreciate the discussion): Howard: "Scott, I cannot know for sure, for I don't know what the criterion for 'knowing' would be other than a sense of rightness that continues, and we cannot know when the continuing will stop. Mistakes do occur, but, often, one realizes them and moves on from there. So far, what I have learned from the Buddha has been confirmed to the extent I have followed up on it, and it has not yet in any way been contradicted by my experience. I do have strong faith in his teaching. But, in the final analysis, I have to go along with the Korean Son master in his urging 'Only don't know" - for I do not know.'" Scott: I've had to learn this last urging as well -not in a Dhamma context - and I think it is Good. To me, this was something I had to come to in work as a psychotherapist. Things go on anyway. Better to Accept Not Knowing. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We very much agree here. -------------------------------------------------------- Learning of the beautifully intertwining of Characteristics Of Things - anicca, anatta, dukkha - gave substance to why 'Not Knowing' is Best but because, to me, this confirms that 'I' am Superfluous and Epiphenomenal. When I learn that Understanding is a function of a particular dhamma over which I have No Control, I'm even More Pleased. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, we agree. ---------------------------------------------------- I have learned, and with this you might disagree, to be Cautious when it comes to 'A Sense of Rightness'. I might feel it but what is it, I ask myself? This 'sense of rightness' could be conditioned by any number of dhammas, and not all of them kusala. How can one be sure? I'd say being Mislead is more often the case in samsaara, and no more often than a Constant Sense of Rightness. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do NOT disagree. The caution you point to is very important. You ask "How can one be sure?" When I find that out I'll let you know! ;-)) Meanwhile, we take our best shot. ------------------------------------------------------ If someone tells me to 'Meditate', and then can't show me how what they are referring to as 'meditate' is anything more ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: It's difficult to describe what goes on when meditating, and it may well be peculiar to the individual meditator in certain respects. Different actions are required for different people, and even for the same person under varying circumstances. As for the overall approaches, there are a variety of these, and one needs to glean them from the Buddha's teachings and from such expositors as Buddhaghosa. The area is too vast for me to get involved in attempting to communicate the details. Most simply, a basic format is to sit in an upright but relaxed and stable position, close the eyes, and pay attention to whatever bodily sensations arise, with breath sensations "at the center", relaxing the body when tightness is observed, calming both body and mind, and returning attention to what arises when it is noted that one has "gotten lost" in thought, in excitement, or in sloth & torpor. In the process, there is, along with the observing of body, also an observing of mind - and that's important. The meditation process is one of maintaining balance, not falling off to the left (sloth & torpor) or to the right (excitement & distraction). More generally, the hindrances are to be balanced by counter-measures. In a sense, one might say that meditating is a process of overcoming hindrances. I think it could be looked at as a process of "closing the channels" as in the following sutta: _________________ AN 5.51 Avarana Sutta Obstacles Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A iii 58 ____________________________________ Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. ____________________________________ Copyright © 2003 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 2003 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. ____________________________________ On one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's Monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks replied to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said: "These five are obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment. Which five? "Sensual desire is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. Ill will... Sloth & drowsiness... Restlessness & anxiety... Uncertainty is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. These are the five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment. And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. "Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. "Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible. "Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would close the channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be undispersed, undiffused, & undissipated; it would go far, its current swift, carrying everything with it. In the same way, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Howard: "When we depend on the teaching and testimony of others, what we base that reliance on is in fact our own reason and experience, and, thus, in the final analysis, we do not, and really cannot, put any head above our own." Scott: Howard: "In the past I did, I am certain, experience jhana. Not only did it match up, but it was 'dramatic'. More recently, while there still is a matching up, the drama is gone and unmissed, and I'm less interested in characterizing or naming aspects of my meditative experience. I do find a growth in calm, clarity, and ease of introspection as I live my life, and most of all, a growth of love and happiness - and I am grateful for that, and, for the moment at least, satisfied with it." Scott: Fair enough. I'm not sure how these latter, and as I said to James, laudable, aspects of life - calm, clarity, and ease of introspection - are necessarily a function of 'meditation' - at least the sort described in the suttas. I think this modern 'meditation' must be like Thinking About Things and Feeling Things, according to how it is being told to me. For example, I've had what I consider to have been a thorough and rather deep-going psychoanalysis (of about six years duration all told). I can honestly say that 'a growth in calm, clarity, and ease of introspection' were the result. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's great. :-) ------------------------------------------------------- In fact psychoanalysis is the Ultimate Introspection - talk about Self-Involved. This cannot be 'meditation' taught by the Buddha, since its founder was a brilliant Austrian Jew. And yet we are discussing the same effects. Any thoughts? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think quite the same. When I speak of introspection, I'm not referring to self-oriented thinking, though thinking is certainly affected, but rather to a direct, wordless, internal seeing of how the mind is. The introspection that I refer to reveals impersonality instead of self. And the process of meditation I discussed above (as opposed to its effect on "ongoing mindfulness and introspection"), is, when properly underway, very much freed of sense of self. Of course, the process doesn't begin that way - far from it. ----------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ======================== With metta, Howard #80566 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Remember this?: A: "First of all, Jhana IS NOT CONCENTRATION. It is much more than that." Scott: Please join James and I. We are discussing Visuddhimagga. He starts by describing Concentration. Check it out, man. Sincerely, Scott. #80567 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/28/2007 12:02:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Sorry, I sent too soon. I forgot to finish: ...If someone tells me to 'Meditate', and then can't show me how what they are referring to as 'meditate' is anything more than thinking about myself and feeling things, I'm not going to do it on that account. James has sent me to Visuddhimagga to learn about 'Meditation'. I'll see what I find. Howard: "When we depend on the teaching and testimony of others, what we base that reliance on is in fact our own reason and experience, and, thus, in the final analysis, we do not, and really cannot, put any head above our own." Scott: I don't trust 'my own reason' and 'experience' is Deceptive. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: When you adopt another's reason and experience, whose reason and experience do you rely on to make that choice? ----------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ========================= With metta, Howard #80568 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ideation nilovg Dear Robert A, Op 27-dec-2007, om 17:04 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > When you say 'practice according to the Dhamma', I take that to mean > things like restraint of the senses, being generous and patient, > keeping > precepts, and being kind. Is that what you have in mind - these > things plus > wise attention? > ------------------------------- N: All these things along with the development of satipatthana. --------- > > R: This is a very important point and one I think is key to what I > am trying > to understand. The issue is which comes first - the quieting of greed, > hatred, and delusion - which leads to seeing more clearly - which > leads to > more understanding, or more understanding that leads to quieting of > greed, hatred, and delusion. ------- N: The answer is the development of the perfections along with satipatthana. From my post today: No worry about this first then that. Let it come by conditions and this helps awareness of whatever reality appears. It helps to see that everything is dhamma, non-self. --------- > > R: As I said, it is not a question of the five hindrances being > discarded, but > for them to be somewhat attenuated. They are not eliminated, so > they can > be known and should be known. You are right that this is the point of > practice, but quieting them makes this possible. This is like a > discussion I > have often had with others about dealing with difficult situations > in our > lives. Often it is very helpful for us to deal with difficult > situations in our > lives, for we can see Dhamma in these difficulties. However, if the > situation is so difficult it overwhelms us, then it is better to > withdraw from > the situation if we can - it is beyond our capacity to handle with > wisdom > and mindfulness. It is the same with the hindrances. We can be > overwhelmed and then it is good to quiet things down a bit. ------ N: You have a point here, I understand. What can be done in such situations? Before we came into contact with the teachings we did not know much about kusala and akusala. Then, by reading and listening we learnt more about kusala and akusala, we came to understand the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala. I quote what I wrote formerly: We read in the (Expositor p. 100): As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks. We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel).> When overwhelmed by akusala it is best to think of other people and not of oneself, in performing kusala through body, speech and mind. Confidence in kusala can grow. Listening is most helpful and I am thinking now of the ten bases of meritorious deeds. If we would not know about these many opportunities for kusala are lost. For example, daana is not only giving away useful things, but also appreciating other people's kusala and giving expression to this appreciation. If you are interested you could read Kh Sujin's book, Q. and Answers about the Ten bases of meritorious deeds: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ meri1.html ***** Nina. #80569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Hi James and Larry, Larry chose the chapters and I am very satisfied with his choice, I learn a lot helping with these. Perhaps Larry can say more? Nina. Op 28-dec-2007, om 5:28 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Excerpt from the Vism. are posted in this group but they seem to > be always from the "Understanding" section and rarely from the sila > and samadhi sections. The Vism. is predominately a meditation manual > but you wouldn't know that from reading the posts in this group. #80570 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:48 pm Subject: For New Comers To Buddhism - and putthujjana teachers pannabahulo Dear Abhidhammika, Like Sarah, I'm not sure what point you're making here or what your motivation is for the content of your letter, but I would like to draw attention to two issues. Firstly, I and the students I know who have practised under Sayadaw U Tejiniya's guidance, would certainly not regard him as a putthujjana. In connection with this I am reminded of a story that I first heard in a Dhamma talk given by the late Sayadaw U Silanada. "A young monk was walking through a village on alms-round when he saw an old monk sitting down at the edge of the village. The old monk was drinking rice soup from his bowl. The young monk thought to himself,"What a greedy monk. Why can't he wait until he gets back to the monastery before he eats his food.He looks so unsightly sitting there like that." Later that evening there was a knock on the young monk's kuti door. Opening it he saw the old monk standing there. The young monk paid respect to the old monk who then asked the young monk how his meditation practice was going. The young monk replied that he seemed to be stuck and could not make any progress. The old monk then cautioned the young monk telling him not to strive for anything further because that morning he had criticised an arahant. Realising what he had done, he immediately fell on his knees and begged forgiveness from the old monk. The latter replied that he was already forgiven and that that had been the purpose of his visit". Criticising holy people can seriously affect one's progress on the path. Further, it is important to remember that 'Right Speech' is one of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. The second point concerns your reference to "Newcomers to Buddhism." I'm not sure what you mean here either. The Lord Buddha did not teach 'Buddhism'; he taught Dhamma-Vinaya.He taught the truths of suffering,it's cause, its cessation and the path leading to that. You refer to Bahiya. He was a recluse who traveled a long way to meet the Buddha. The Lord Buddha then gave him a very brief teaching which led to Bahiya immediately becoming an arahant. Moments later he was killed by a cow. Was Bahiya 'New to Buddhism'? I write this letter to help you, not to merely criticise. I hope you profitably reflect on its contents. May you be well, happy and peacefull. Pannabahulo Bhikkhu. #80571 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 7:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thanks for the reply: > > James: "If you are really asking for information, rather than being > argumentative, then you should get a copy of the Vism. (The Path of > Purification) by Buddhaghosa. Read it from the beginning to the end > and it will answer all of these questions you have." > > Scott: When it comes to this, I am Totally and Unapologetically > Argumentative. And so are you (see below). James: You think you are being really clever but you are not. The Vism. is predominately a meditation manual, that is all that I had to say. I am not asking a bunch of retarded leading questions in order to be argumentative. You remember what I wrote about the DSG bullies and I still stick by it: relentless questions and passive- agressive comments. > > J: "ps. Excerpt from the Vism. are posted in this group but they seem > to be always from the "Understanding" section and rarely from the sila > and samadhi sections. The Vism. is predominately a meditation manual > but you wouldn't know that from reading the posts in this group." > > Scott: So there. This notwithstanding, let's look at Visuddhimagga. > I'm curious though, as a preamble, how you can accept Buddhagosa's > commentaries, since it is Clear to me that he is a Complete and Utter > Proponent of No-Control. His language must be, therefore, of the > Ordinary Variety, while meaning to refer to Ultimate Realities At All > Times. James: utter Nonsense. That is Just the Way you see It. As I said, you should Read the entire Path Of Purification. It is Often misrepresented in the Group. (See, I can also us capitalization like Emily Dickinson ;-)). > > Here's a Start. Visuddhimagga (p.p.85-86): > > "...(ii) IN WHAT SENSE IS IT CONCENTRATION? It is concentration > (samaadhi) in the sense of concentrating (samaadhaana). What is this > concentrating? It is the centering (aadhaana) of consciousness and > consciousness-concomitants evenly (sama.m) and rightly (sammaa) on a > single object; placing is what is meant. So it is the state in virtue > of which consciousness and its concomitants remain evenly and rightly > on a single object, undistracted and unscattered, that should be > understood as concentrating. > > "(iii) WHAT ARE ITS CHARACTERISTIC, FUNCTION, MANIFESTATION, AND > PROXIMATE CAUSE? Concentration has non-distraction as its > characteristic. Its function is to eliminate distraction. It is > manifested as non-wavering. Because of the words 'Being blissful, his > mind becomes concentrated' (D.i.73), its proximate cause is bliss. > > "(iv) HOW MANY KINDS OF CONCENTRATION ARE THERE? > (1) First of all it is of one kind with the characteristic of > non-distraction. (2) Then it is of two kinds as access and > absorption; (3) likewise as mundane and supramundane, (4) as with > happiness and without happiness, and (5) as accompanied by bliss and > accompanied by equanimity. It is of three kinds (6) as inferior, > medium, and superior; likewise (7) as with applied thought and > sustained thought, etc., (8) as accompanied by happiness etc., and (9) > as limited, exalted, and measureless. It is of four kinds (10) as of > difficult progress and sluggish direct knowledge, etc.; likewise (11) > as limited with limited object, etc., (12) according to the factors of > the four jhaanas, (13) as partaking of diminution, etc., (14) of the > sense sphere, etc., and (15) as predominance, and so on. (16) It is > of five kinds according to the factors of the five jhaanas reckoned by > the fivefold method." > > Scott: Right off the bat we are dealing with the Concentration - > cittass' ekaggataa, samahdindriya.m. This is, according to > Dhammasa"nga.ni: > > "The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on > that occasion is the absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed > mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and power of concentration, right > concentration..." > > Any thoughts? James: Nothing in particular. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James #80572 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 8:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy lbidd2 Hi James, James: "Excerpt from the Vism. are posted in this group but they seem to be always from the "Understanding" section and rarely from the sila and samadhi sections. The Vism. is predominantly a meditation manual but you wouldn't know that from reading the posts in this group." Larry: I asked Nina to explain chapters XIV and XVII because the 5 khandhas and their dependent arising is the foundation of all insight. The Visuddhimagga is comprehensive. It covers everything included in sila, samadhi, and panna. Perhaps this isn't the group for pithy discussions on meditation ;-) Larry #80573 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:02 pm Subject: A Note on the Hindrances as Discussed in AN 5.51 upasaka_howard Hi, all - There is something about AN 5.51 (Avarana Sutta) that I think is of interest. In that sutta, the five hindrances are described not as obstacles to concentration, but as "obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment." We can make of this what we will. All that I will say with assurance is that on the basis of this, it is an error to see the hindrances solely as obstacles to concentration. I will also add, as an aside, that as regards the "samadhi" of meditation, I believe it is not the same as the cetasika of ekagatta that is said to occur in all mindstates, and also not the tightly focused restriction of attention required in forms of meditation not distinctly Buddhist. I prefer the English term 'collectedness' to the term 'concentration' as translation for 'samadhi' in the context of Buddhist meditation. The mind in Buddhist meditation needs to be alert, present (i.e., mindful), calm, and collected, and not sunk in trance. With metta, Howard #80574 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: J: "...(See, I can also us capitalization like Emily Dickinson ;-))." Scott: I know! Its great. I just started doing this. Its so Nineteenth Century. We can both do it in our Discussion of Concentration (Samaadhi). Me: "Any thoughts?" James: "Nothing in particular." Scott: No, seriously. Let's discuss this section. I have read Visuddhimagga but it needs to be studied a lot. Please, lets go over this Samaadhi section. It'll be Brilliant. Sincerely, Scott. #80575 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:50 pm Subject: Re: Dhammika vs Suan - Re:For New Comers To Buddhism - and putthujjana teachers pannabahulo Dear Dhamma friends, The letter I posted earlier is meant for Suan. I am confused as to whether his name is Abhidhammika or Suan.I guess it's both. A very happy New Year to you all. With metta, Pannabahulo Bhikkhu #80576 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:19 pm Subject: Re: A Note on the Hindrances as Discussed in AN 5.51 kenhowardau Hi Howard, -------- H: > There is something about AN 5.51 (Avarana Sutta) that I think is of interest. In that sutta, the five hindrances are described not as obstacles to concentration, but as "obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment." -------- If that is what the Suttas say they do, then that is what they do! Of course, the suttas also say that consciousness is momentary. Therefore, consciousness with hindrance is momentary, and the hindrances must perform the functions described the suttas in the space of that single moment. ------------------------------ H: > We can make of this what we will. ----------------------------- Let's be careful we don't make something conventional out of it. :-) The Dhamma is not conventional, it is a description of ultimate reality. ---------------- H: > All that I will say with assurance is that on the basis of this, it is an error to see the hindrances solely as obstacles to concentration. ---------------- For jhana concentration, the hindrances must be temporarily suppressed. Otherwise, once they arise the meditation object is lost and the meditator has to start again from the very beginning. For satipatthana there is no such problem: an arisen hindrance can be taken as an object of insight. That doesn't mean that the hindrance does not perform the functions described in the sutta, of course. It just means that, once it has arisen and performed its functions and fallen away it can, immediately after, be taken as an object of insight. -------------------- H: > I will also add, as an aside, that as regards the "samadhi" of meditation, I believe it is not the same as the cetasika of ekagatta that is said to occur in all mindstates, and also not the tightly focused restriction of attention required in forms of meditation not distinctly Buddhist. I prefer the English term 'collectedness' to the term 'concentration' as translation for 'samadhi' in the context of Buddhist meditation. The mind in Buddhist meditation needs to be alert, present (i.e., mindful), calm, and collected, and not sunk in trance. --------------------- I think you are talking about conventional reality again. We need to talk about one or the other: the two do not mix. Ken H #80577 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:03 am Subject: For Sarah/RE Absorpsion Meditation... reverendagga... Sarah... Jhana - The best definition would be "burning" due to your exact reason! im going to be handing out an online course on jhana meditation soon! i will discuss the theory and practice of jhana meditation. Did you know that there are many people who spend THOUSANDS of dollars on "jhana retreats" and are taught NOTHING of the sort?! People like to keep secrets when they discover the kick ass power of jhana meditation! They want it all for themselves! 2 bad for them im not one of them! HA!HA!HA! MAY THE BUDDHAS DEVA AND ANGELS BLESS ALL OF YOU! bhikkhu aggacitto/aka reverend aggacitto #80578 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Hi James and Larry, Op 29-dec-2007, om 5:22 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Larry: I asked Nina to explain chapters XIV and XVII because the 5 > khandhas and their dependent arising is the foundation of all insight. > The Visuddhimagga is comprehensive. It covers everything included in > sila, samadhi, and panna. > > Perhaps this isn't the group for pithy discussions on meditation ;-) ------- N: Also the chapters on siila and samaadhi are worth while studying, but life is too short. As said before, in the context of the Visuddhimagga, there is also understanding together with siila and with samaadhi. James, you posted the section of Recollection on the Buddha, but also the other Recollections are excellent material to be considered. Depending on your time, it is good if you post more on these subjects. Connie wrote to me before, quoting Amara, that each page of the Visuddhimagga teaches anattaa. True, also the jhaanafactors are cetasikas, they are non-self. All kusala cittas accompanied by sobhana cetasikas are non-self. Whatever we read in the Visuddhimagga, it all points to anattaa. Nina. #80579 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Hi James (and Scott), Very good. This is all about citta and cetasikas: It is the centering (aadhaana) of consciousness and > consciousness-concomitants. The consciousness-concomitants. are cetasikas accompanying citta. All along about citta and cetasika. And the conditions for their arising. Citta and cetasikas, not self who is 'doing' this or that. Nina. Op 29-dec-2007, om 4:30 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > "...(ii) IN WHAT SENSE IS IT CONCENTRATION? It is concentration > > (samaadhi) in the sense of concentrating (samaadhaana). What is > this > > concentrating? It is the centering (aadhaana) of consciousness and > > consciousness-concomitants evenly (sama.m) and rightly (sammaa) on > a > > single object #80580 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy sarahprocter... Dear Scott, James, Alex & all, It's a good idea to consider more on concentration, samadhi and ekaggata as these words are coming up in our various threads. I like your start: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Here's a Start. Visuddhimagga (p.p.85-86): > > "...(ii) IN WHAT SENSE IS IT CONCENTRATION? It is concentration > (samaadhi) in the sense of concentrating (samaadhaana). What is this > concentrating? It is the centering (aadhaana) of consciousness and > consciousness-concomitants evenly (sama.m) and rightly (sammaa) on a > single object; placing is what is meant. So it is the state in virtue > of which consciousness and its concomitants remain evenly and rightly > on a single object, undistracted and unscattered, that should be > understood as concentrating. ... Sarah: Of course, here it is right concentration, samma samaadhi, which is being referred to. .... <..> > Scott: Right off the bat we are dealing with the Concentration - > cittass' ekaggataa, samahdindriya.m. This is, according to > Dhammasa"nga.ni: > > "The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on > that occasion is the absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed > mental procedure, quiet, the faculty and power of concentration, right > concentration..." > > Any thoughts? .... Sarah: I'd like to re-quote from an old post I wrote: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41331 >S: A few more examples (From C.Rhys Davids’ transl of Dhammasangani): *** Part 1 ***Good*** States of Consciousness[11] what on that occasion is <...> self-collectedness (cittass’ ekaggataa)? [Cy: ‘a name for concentration (samaadhi)’] The stability, solidity, absorbed steadfastness of thought which on that occasion is the absence of distraction, balance, unperturbed mental procedure, quiet (samatho), the faculty and the power of concentration, right concentration – this is the self-collectedness that there then is. ======= Part 11 ***Bad*** States of Consciousness <...> *……self-collectedness ((cittass’ ekaggataa)? Answer as in [11] (above), substituting ‘wrong concentration’ for ‘right concentration’. In full from Kline's translation (Cittuppaada Ka.n.da, p. 197), it reads: "375 What at that time is one-pointedness of mind(cittassekaggataa)? That which at that time is stability of mind (cittassa .thiti) , steadfastness of mind (sa.n.thiti), absorbed steadfastness of mind(ava.t.thiti), unshakableness (avisaahaaro), non-distraction (avikkhepo), imperturbability(avisaaha.tamaanasataa), tranquillity of mind (samatho), faculty of concentration (samaadhindriya.m), power of concentration (samaadhibala.m), ***wrong*** concentration (micchaasamaadhi) - this at that time is one-pointedness of mind (cittassekaggataa)." ... Sarah: In other words, concentration or one-pointedness (citassekaggataa) arises with akusala as well as kusala cittas. It has all the same characteristics, the only difference in the definition here being that it is *wrong* in this case. When concentration is apparent, it is nearly always *wrong* concentration. It is only through the development of right understanding and awareness that right concentration will develop, never by 'focussing', 'concentrating' or by trying to avoid distractions. I'll look forward to reading any of your further comments and discussions. It's a good idea to look at the earlier sections of the Visuddhimagga together as well. Metta, Sarah ======= #80581 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:10 am Subject: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, I just received a brief note from our dear friend Htoo. He asked me to f/w the following from his 'Htoo' account, but it's easier to just send it from my address. I'm sure he'll be glad to see any replies. S. ********************* From Htoo Heading : Real Dhamma Things : Six senses are sensed by sense-bases. When senses are sensed there arise sense-consciousness. Here senses are meant for \'sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought\'. Sight is sensed through the sense-base of eye-sense-base and there arises eye-consciousness (cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na). When contemplate on these things (bhaavanaa on aayatana) there may arise three steps of knowledge. 1) knowledge of sabhaava-lakkha.na (knowledge of original marker of Dhamma) 2) knowledge of sa`nkhata-lakkha.na (knowledge of preparation on Dhamma) 3) knowledge of saama`na-lakkha.na (knowledge of general signs of Dhamma The first step is \'for the power of discriminating on naama and ruupa. The second step if \'for the power of penetrating cause and effect (pa.ticca-samuppaada). And the third step is the entry point to the path of NEP. Third step is the 1st ~naana of 10 vipassanaa. There are 10 vipassanaa ~naana. 1. nirodha-samaapatti 2. phala-samaapatti 3. paccavekkha.naa 4. phala 5. magga 6. gotrabhu are not vipassanaa ~naana. And naama-ruupa-pariccheda & paccayapariggaha are also not vipassanaa ~naana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing For Sarah ( you can put English translation after Paa.li such as fruition-consciousness for phala-citta). #80582 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Perfections Corner (67) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness (continued) By the development of satipa.t.thaana we shall know the difference between the characteristics of mettaa and of aversion. When we recognize the characteristic of aversion as akusala, pa~n~naa which sees the disadvantage and the ugliness of aversion and all akusala dhammas is the condition for kusala dhammas further to develop. By the development of satipa.t.thaana we shall see that instead of dosa, mettaa can arise and be developed. We should also develop time and again the perfection of patience, endurance in all kinds of circumstances. It may happen that someone used to feel annoyed when the food was not tasty, but when he can be aware of the characteristic of the citta at such moments and realize that it is akusala citta, he will be satisfied with the food that is right in front of him, and he will not take the trouble to look for something else. The development of satipa.t.thaana is beneficial in all respects. It is beneficial for the development of generosity. It happened that someone was greatly attached to beautiful things and was collecting a great number of them. However, when he had learnt about satipa.t.thaana and he developed it, he began to see the disadvantage of attachment, especially when he understood the characteristic of renunciation, nekkhamma. Renunciation is not only renunciation to a high degree, the degree of monkhood, but there can also be renunciation in the layman's life, that is to say, contentment, the feeling that what one possesses is sufficient. That person felt that he had already enough of the things which are experienced through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. He understood that he had too many possessions and that he had not wanted to give them away. However, when he realized the disadvantage of clinging to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, he began to understand that what he possessed was sufficient, that he should have moderation. He wanted to get rid of what he did not need and he knew that in giving things away for the benefit and happiness of others he would accumulate kusala. If one is not in the habit of developing satipa.t.thaana, one does not know the characteristics of realities, which are appearing one at a time, as only naama dhammas and ruupa dhammas. In that case, other kinds of kusala do not arise easily and there are conditions for akusala to arise more rapidly. However, if someone knows the characteristics of realities that are appearing just as they are and he knows the characteristic of naama dhamma as just naama, not a being or a person, and the characteristic of ruupa dhamma as just ruupa, not a being or a person, his endurance and patience will increase and also other kinds of kusala will further develop. A monk who used to live in Indonesia spoke about an Indonesian woman who had lost her husband because of a young man's reckless driving. However, she did not like to take legal action because she did not want to cause unhappiness to someone else. Moreoever, she also expressed the intention to give a scholarship for the education of that young man. This was very difficult for her, but she was able to do so. Such great acts of charity can be performed by someone who has accumulated loving-kindness and compassion. One may wonder whether the action of the Indonesian woman was a perfection developed in daily life. People have accumulated different degrees of kusala. Whether kusala is a perfection or not depends on its strength. When it is a perfection it is a supporting condition leading to the eradication of wrong view. When akusala dhamma is strong, it will not be possible to abandon the wrong view which takes realities for beings, people or self. == to be continued, connie #80583 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:32 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (72) nichiconn dear friends, Part 17 15. Cattaaliisanipaato 1. Isidaasiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 428. "Vissajjito gato so, ahampi ekaakinii vicintemi; aapucchituuna gaccha.m, marituye vaa pabbajissa.m vaa. 426. Allowed to go, he departed. I for my part, all alone, thought, "I shall ask leave to go to die, or I shall go forth [as a wanderer]." Vissajjito gato soti so bhikkhako pitaraa vissajjito yathaaruci gato. Ekaakiniiti ekikaava. Aapucchituuna gacchanti mayha.m pitara.m vissajjetvaa gacchaami. Marituyeti maritu.m. Vaati vikappatthe nipaato. 426. Allowed to go, he departed means: that mendicant, allowed to go by my father, he departed as he wanted. All alone (ekaakinii) means: entirely alone (ekikaa). I shall ask leave and go (gaccha.m) means: being sent away by my father, I shall go (gacchaami). To die (marituye) means: to die (maritu.m). Or (vaa) is a particle in the sense of giving an alternative. 429. "Atha ayyaa jinadattaa, aagacchii gocaraaya caramaanaa; taata kula.m vinayadharii, bahussutaa siilasampannaa. 427. Then the noble lady Jinadattaa, expert in the Discipline, with great learning, possessed of virtuous conduct, came to my father's house when wandering for food. 430. "Ta.m disvaana amhaaka.m, u.t.thaayaasana.m tassaa pa~n~naapayi.m; nisinnaaya ca paade, vanditvaa bhojanamadaasi.m. 428. Seeing her, I rose up from our seat and offered it to her. I paid homage to her feet when she had sat down, [and] I gave her food. Gocaraayaati bhikkhaaya, taata-kula.m aagacchiiti yojanaa. Tanti ta.m jinadattattheri.m. U.t.thaayaasana.m tassaa pa~n~naapayinti u.t.thahitvaa aasana.m tassaa theriyaa pa~n~naapesi.m. 427. For food means: for alms. [She] came to my father's house; that is the implication. 428. Her means: that Therii Jinadattaa. I rose up from [our] seat (u.t.thaayaasana.m) and offered (pa~n~naapayi.m) it to her means: after rising up (u.t.thahitvaa), I offered (pa~n~naapsi.m) a seat to that therii. 432. "Atha ma.m bha.natii taato, idheva puttaka caraahi tva.m dhamma.m; annena ca paanena ca, tappaya sama.ne dvijaatii ca. 433. "Athaha.m bha.naami taata.m, rodantii a~njali.m pa.naametvaa; paapa~nhi mayaa pakata.m, kamma.m ta.m nijjaressaami. 430. Then my father said to me, "You should practise the Doctrine in this very place, child. Satisfy ascetics and twice-born brahmans with food and drink." 431. Then my lamenting and raising my hands in respectful salutation, I said to my father, "Evil indeed was the action I did. I shall destroy it." Idhevaati imasmi.m eva gehe .thitaa. Puttakaati saama~n~navohaarena dhiitara.m anukampento aalapati. Caraahi tva.m dhammanti tva.m pabbajitvaa caritabba.m brahmacariyaadidhamma.m cara. Dvijaatiiti braahma.najaatii. Nijjaressaamiiti jiiraapessaami vinaasessaami. 430. In this very place means: staying in this very house. Child means: he addresses his daughter sympathetically with a conventional phrase. You should practise (caraahi) the Doctrine (dhamma.m) means: you, having gone forth*, practise (cara) the Doctrine of the holy life, etc. (brahma-cariyaadi-dhamma.m), that should be practised (caritabba.m). Twice-born (dvi-jaati) means: born brahmins (braahma.na-jaatii). 431. I shall destroy (nigggaressaami)** means: I shall destroy (jiiraa-passaami), I shall bring to destruction. *It is not clear why the commentary says "having gone forth" since the father's words are meant to persuade her to stay at home. **KRN points out that "Nijjara is a technical term in Jainism [meaning] 'the gradual destruction of all actions' ... " (EV II, p157 ad v431). ..to be continued, connie #80584 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James and Larry, > Larry chose the chapters and I am very satisfied with his choice, I > learn a lot helping with these. Perhaps Larry can say more? > Nina. I didn't say anything about you. I just made an observation. Actually, I had posted some sections from the samadhi section on Mindfulness of Death, and Tep, if I recall, posted some from Mindfulness of Breathing. But, Nina, I do know that each time I posted from that section your comments were usually along the lines of "This material is for monks, not laypeople". Which, if that is the case, then the entire Vism. is for monks and not laypeople. Metta, James #80585 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Perhaps this isn't the group for pithy discussions on meditation ;-) > > Larry > I agree. This isn't really the group for pithy discussion on anything related to the Dhamma. But, I think there could be intelligent discussions on meditation without it turning into WWIII ;-)). Metta, James #80586 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Scott and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: No, seriously. Let's discuss this section. I have read > Visuddhimagga but it needs to be studied a lot. Please, lets go over > this Samaadhi section. It'll be Brilliant. Sure, let's begin with a recent quote by Sarah. Sarah wrote: "When concentration is apparent, it is nearly always *wrong* concentration. It is only through the development of right understanding and awareness that right concentration will develop, never by 'focussing', 'concentrating' or by trying to avoid distractions." Okay, is there any evidence in the Vism. to bear this out? Does purposefully focusing on a meditation object amount to wrong concentration? Please respond with only quotes from the Vism. as that is what we are discussing. Metta, James #80587 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@ wrote: > > > > > Perhaps this isn't the group for pithy discussions on meditation ;-) > > > > Larry > > > > I agree. This isn't really the group for pithy discussion on anything > related to the Dhamma. But, I think there could be intelligent > discussions on meditation without it turning into WWIII ;-)). > > Metta, > James > Hi James, You are agreeing with something I didn't really say, aren't you? If you would like to discuss meditation, I am willing. But there is no expertise here ;- Larry #80588 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:01 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 8, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, When we were sitting near the Bodhi Tree in Bodhgaya there was a good opportunity to express my appreciation of all the kusala performed by my friends. This is a way of dåna, it is anumodanå [1]dåna. I paid respect to Acharn Sujin who had given us so much Dhamma every day, explaining to us with great patience the development of satipatthåna and helping us to see our clinging to the self more and more. I also expressed my appreciation to all my friends who had been full of kindness to me and had helped me with their generosity and consideration in many ways. When during bus stops we had to walk through bushes and on rough grounds there was always someone helping me. Or when I was coughing I immediately received a medicine from one of my friends. The morning before our departure from the hotel in Gaya, I said to Acharn Supee that, when I would be back in Holland, I would miss the company of my friends and the countless Dhamma reminders we received all day. We had the following conversation: Supee: The firm understanding of the Dhamma is the condition for the arising of sati of the level of considering, even though it is not yet of the level of direct awareness, satipatthåna. We can consider the Dhamma everywhere, it does not matter what we are doing. Nina: But in India we have more opportunities for Dhamma conversations and for considering the Dhamma. Supee: There are more conditions in India, but if the understanding of realities is firm enough, there are conditions for the arising of satipatthåna, even if you have complicated work to do. If one's understanding is not firm enough, one can read the scriptures and study them, so that there are more conditions for sati of the level of considering realities. When we have Dhamma discussions with friends there are conditions for the arising of sati of the level of considering realities, but this is not sufficient. Satipatthåna should arise in daily life, also when your work is complicated, and it should be aware of all kinds of realities in all circumstances. Even when you are angry, there can also be awareness of anger. We should not select a specific situation and believe that we have to be with Dhamma friends. Nina: We cannot select a particular situation or force the arising of sati. The arising of sati depends on the conditions in the case of each individual, people are not the same. Supee: In the beginning satipatthåna does not have enough strength. It seems that it arises more often when we have Dhamma discussions with friends, but it does not arise naturally in daily life. When satipatthåna is firmly established there are conditions for its arising, no matter where we are, and it can be aware of all realities. Paññå becomes keener and more refined. Nina: It is paññå that performs its own task. I always forget that it is not self who understands. Supee: It is natural that we have an idea of self who considers the Dhamma. Paññå should become keener so that it can understand that it is not self who considers the Dhamma. When there is more understanding, paññå realizes that even an idea of self considering the teachings is also a dhamma, a reality. Nina: I understand more that there is clinging to a self so often. --------- 1. Anumodanå means thanksgiving or appreciation. ******* Nina. #80589 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:02 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 222, 223, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 222, 223. Intro: As we have seen, the six bases, aayatanas, condition contact that is thirty-twofold, namely contact accompanying thirty-two vipaakacittas. Contact is a cetasika that accompanies each citta, but here the vipaakacittas that are mundane are taken into account. This is in accordance with the method of the Dependant Origination that states: ignorance conditions kamma-formations, kamma-formations condition consciousness (vipaakacitta), consciousness conditions naama/ruupa (naama are cetasikas), naama/ruupa condition the six bases (the senses-bases and the mind- base, here vipaakacitta), the six bases, aayatanas, condition contact, and here contact accompanying vipaakacittas is meant. Thus far the inner aayatanas were referred to, namely the five senses and the mind-base, manaayatana. In the following sections it is said that some teachers take it that the sixfold aayatana includes also the external aayatanas. There are twelve aayatanas in all: six internal bases: the physical bases of the eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-base or consciousness (manåyatana), six external bases: which are six classes of objects: visible object, sound, odour, taste, tactile object and dhammåyatana, comprising: cetasikas, subtle rúpas and nibbåna. In the context of the Dependent Origination, there is no reference to nibbaana. The following sections deal with the question whether the sixfold aayatana includes only the six internal aayatanas or the six external aayanatanas as well. -------- Text Vis.: 222: But as to the sixfold base that is a condition for this thirty-twofold contact: herein: Some wise men take the sixfold base To be the five internal bases With the sixth; but others count These plus the six external bases. Text Vis.223: Herein, firstly, there are those who take this to be an exposition of the occurrence of what is clung to, [that is, kammically-acquired aggregates,] and they maintain that the conditioning [bases] and the conditionally-arisen [contact] are only what is included in one's own continuity. -------- N: The five aayatanas which are the senses are produced by kamma, and this is referred to as ‘ what is clung to’, upaadinna. The Tiika mentions that according to the words of the first teacher the internal aayatanas produced by kamma are the condition for such contact. The text refers to these as ‘ what is included in one's own continuity’ (sasantatipariyaapanna). Moreover, the ruupas beginning with visible object which are the external aayatanas and not clung to, unlike the ruupas which are the senses produced by kamma, are the objects of contact. But, as the Tiika explains, according to the second teacher, also the outer aayatanas are taken as condition for contact, and this fact cannot be denied, in whatever way such condition may operate. As the Tiika states, the teachers who are dwelling in the Mahaa- Vihaara take it that vi~n~naa.na conditions naama/ruupa, which condition the six bases, and these bases condition contact, and contact conditions feeling. They explain the conditioned dhammas as ‘contained in one’s own continuity’ and take these as only results. --------- N: Buddhaghosa was dwelling in the Mahaa-Vihaara, the Great Monastery, in Anuradhapura. ----------- Text Vis.: They take any one part to represent any remaining one of its kind, since the condition for contact in the immaterial states is the sixth base [only], according to the text 'With the sixth base as condition, contact' (Vbh.179), and elsewhere it is the sixfold base inclusively. So they have it that 'sixfold base' means the internal [five] beginning with the eye plus the sixth (mind) base. For that sixth base and that sixfold base are styled 'sixfold base'. -------- N: As to the expression, any one part to represent any remaining one of its kind (ekadesa-saruupekasesanaya), as we have seen in Vis. 203, this is the method of using an all-embracing term to include its component parts. The sixfold base, 'sa.laayatana' , is an all-embracing term, and not all of the aayatanas condition contact in every case. Thus, this condition is to be applied as the case demands. An example is the condition for contact in the immaterial planes which is the sixth base [only]. In these planes there is no ruupa and thus the aayatanas that are the five sense-bases are not a condition for contact. The Tiika refers to the Vibhanga and states that this is in accordance with the text in the Abhidhamma classification. ------------ Text Vis.: But there are those who maintain that it is only the conditionally- arisen [contact]that is contained in a single continuity, while the conditioning [bases]are contained in separate [that is, past] continuities as well. They maintain that all and any such bases are a condition for contact, and they include also the [six] external ones. So they have it that 'sixfold base' means the same internal [five] plus the sixth plus the external ones beginning with visible data. For that sixth base and that [partial] sixfold base and the sixfold base along with these [external ones] each representing the rest are styled sixfold base too. -------- N: There are teachers who have a different opinion. They take it that the sixfold base is an all-embracing term including all aayatanas, the inner aayatanas and the outer aayatanas. In the following sections this will be explained in detail. *********** Conclusion: The sense-bases which are the inner aayatanas are called 'contained in one's own continuity'. We cling to the senses and take them for mine. However, they are mere ruupas produced by kamma and they do not last. They arise and then fall away immediately. They are a condition for eye-contact, ear-contact and contact through the other senses. We are very impressed by what we experience through the senses and attach great importance to it. The world comes to us through the senses. We are attached to the image of a whole, a long lasting world with people. In reality visible object impinges just for a moment on the eyesense, it is seen and experienced by the other cittas of the eye-door process and then it falls away. Realities appear through the six doors very shortly and then fall away, there is nothing left. ********* Nina. #80590 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:04 am Subject: Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) lbidd2 Hi Sarah, I was thinking of Htoo just the other day. I wanted to index his series on CMA titled "Dhamma Talk 1, 2, etc." but I couldn't get the search engine to give me a complete list of his posts. If he is back maybe he could give us an in-depth discussion of this subject. Larry #80591 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Note on the Hindrances as Discussed in AN 5.51 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/29/2007 2:19:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, -------- H: > There is something about AN 5.51 (Avarana Sutta) that I think is of interest. In that sutta, the five hindrances are described not as obstacles to concentration, but as "obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment." -------- If that is what the Suttas say they do, then that is what they do! Of course, the suttas also say that consciousness is momentary. Therefore, consciousness with hindrance is momentary, and the hindrances must perform the functions described the suttas in the space of that single moment. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: But, of course, momentariness wasn't the point of my post. :-) As far as that is concerned, though, if you mean that there hindrances don't remain, I certainly agree. The Buddha taught that in the suttas, and if it weren't true, we'd "be in a pickle"! ;-) If, on the other hand, you are referring to the theory of moments, that's commentarial, not suttic. (I don't know it to be false, though I disbelieve it.) ------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ H: > We can make of this what we will. ----------------------------- Let's be careful we don't make something conventional out of it. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What direct view you have that is not conventional? You speak as if from the mountaintop. In any case, my point was that the hindrances are referred to in this sutta as obstacles to awareness and discernment, and concentration isn't discussed at all. ----------------------------------------------------------------- The Dhamma is not conventional, it is a description of ultimate reality. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's great, Ken. ;-) But I have no clue why you raise that again in this regard. Do you just play that tune at any opportunity? -------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- H: > All that I will say with assurance is that on the basis of this, it is an error to see the hindrances solely as obstacles to concentration. ---------------- For jhana concentration, the hindrances must be temporarily suppressed. Otherwise, once they arise the meditation object is lost and the meditator has to start again from the very beginning. For satipatthana there is no such problem: an arisen hindrance can be taken as an object of insight. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The observing of hindrances is done early in meditation until they are weakened sufficiently to progress further. Meditation is a process, not an instantaneous phenomenon. In order for jhana to be realized, the hindrances do need to be suppressed/mollified, but they are still present at least in passive form. They have to be seen and known for what they are in order to reduce their impact, and this pertains not only to meditation but to all occasions. In this sutta, the Buddha said "Sensual desire is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. Ill will... Sloth & drowsiness... Restlessness & anxiety... Uncertainty is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. These are the five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment. And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." Without the weakening of hindrances, awareness and discernment are *overwhelmed*, and mental cultivation is impossible. These hindrances have to be seen for what they are and weakened, suppressed, or put aside in order for there to be the arising of awareness and discernment strong enough to eventually uproot the hindrances along with all the defilements. Look at what the Buddha said, Ken, with regard to not getting the hindrances out of the way: If one has not done so, "for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible". As for Buddhist meditation, vipassana and samatha co-occur in what is typically Buddhist meditation, and the jhanas involved are not trance states, but states of heightened calm and clarity and insight. --------------------------------------------------------------- That doesn't mean that the hindrance does not perform the functions described in the sutta, of course. It just means that, once it has arisen and performed its functions and fallen away it can, immediately after, be taken as an object of insight. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Once a hindrance "performs its function," a rote phrase you are in love with, it BLOCKS progress! That IS its function. That is why they are referred to as hindrances and obstacles. And it isn't that "damnable concentration" that is pointed to here as being blocked, but awareness and discernment, the sine qua non for awakening. ---------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- H: > I will also add, as an aside, that as regards the "samadhi" of meditation, I believe it is not the same as the cetasika of ekagatta that is said to occur in all mindstates, and also not the tightly focused restriction of attention required in forms of meditation not distinctly Buddhist. I prefer the English term 'collectedness' to the term 'concentration' as translation for 'samadhi' in the context of Buddhist meditation. The mind in Buddhist meditation needs to be alert, present (i.e., mindful), calm, and collected, and not sunk in trance. --------------------- I think you are talking about conventional reality again. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm talking about reality ... period. Trotting out the old dray horse of "conventional reality" doesn't do the job, Ken. --------------------------------------------------------- We need to talk about one or the other: the two do not mix. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The only way to do that is to neither speak nor write nor think. ------------------------------------------------------ Ken H ========================== With metta, Howard #80592 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:38 am Subject: Brief Observation & Suggestion upasaka_howard Hi, all - Paying attention to bodily movement can be instructive, even amazing. Whether a background practice of regular meditation is required for this or not I don't know (though I'm sure its helpful), but it has become clear that from time to time there can be noticing of how the body is moving - for example, walking somewhere, hand extending and grasping something, body then turning and walking back - all without any "one" who is doing this: an entirely impersonal process, much as if the body were a robot - a mechanized assembly - that simply moves. Fascinating, and very useful, it seems to me: one more nail in the coffin of sense of self. With metta, Howard #80593 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:53 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear James (Sarah) Sarah: "When concentration is apparent, it is nearly always *wrong* concentration. It is only through the development of right understanding and awareness that right concentration will develop, never by 'focussing', 'concentrating' or by trying to avoid distractions." J: "Okay, is there any evidence in the Vism. to bear this out? Does purposefully focusing on a meditation object amount to wrong concentration? Please respond with only quotes from the Vism. as that is what we are discussing." Scott: First, I checked to see if 'wrong concentration' was even mentioned in the text. Visuddhimagga XXII 50: "The wrongnesses are the eight states, namely, wrong view, wrong thinking, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, which with wrong knowledge and wrong deliverance, come to ten. They are so called because they occur wrongly." Scott: So it is clear that the text makes reference to Wrong Concentration. In XXII 66: "...Gossip, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, wrong deliverance, and wrong knowledge are eliminated by the fourth knowledge." Scott: What is 'the fourth knowledge'? My guess would be 'path knowledge' - a function of understanding. Sincerely, Scott. #80594 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Hi James, Op 29-dec-2007, om 14:45 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > But, Nina, I do know that each time I > posted from that section your comments were usually along the lines of > "This material is for monks, not laypeople". Which, if that is the > case, then the entire Vism. is for monks and not laypeople. ------ N: Of course not. When the text is about cultivating the right conditions for jhaana, as explained in the Vis. , I would say: mostly for monks who live a secluded life, away from sense pleasures. I am thinking of Kom's post explaining how difficult it is to be consistant in one's life style that has to be in conformity with jhaana. Nina. #80595 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Brief Observation & Suggestion nilovg Hi Howard, Op 29-dec-2007, om 16:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > but it has become clear that > from time to time there can be noticing of how the body is moving - > for example, > walking somewhere, hand extending and grasping something, body then > turning > and walking back - all without any "one" who is doing this: an > entirely > impersonal process, much as if the body were a robot - a mechanized > assembly - > that simply moves. --------- N: It is also beneficial to know that walking, extending the hand is done mostly with lobha, clinging. We want to go to the other room, want to get hold of things. Unless kusala is involved: daana, siila or bhaavanaa. We are sitting at the dinner table, getting dishes for ourselves. There is the second noble Truth: clinging. The Buddha helped us by the satipatthaana sutta, mindfulness of the body, clear comprehension: to be aware when walking, standing, eating, etc. Nina. #80596 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Dear Scott, Op 29-dec-2007, om 19:53 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > In XXII 66: > > "...Gossip, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, > wrong deliverance, and wrong knowledge are eliminated by the fourth > knowledge." > > Scott: What is 'the fourth knowledge'? My guess would be 'path > knowledge' - a function of understanding. ------- N: arahatship. If we look into the preceding para it will be clearer: which defilements are eradicated by the first, the third, the fourth knowledge. Nina. #80597 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Brief Observation & Suggestion glenjohnann Hello Nina et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: It is also beneficial to know that walking, extending the hand is > done mostly with lobha, clinging. We want to go to the other room, > want to get hold of things. Unless kusala is involved: daana, siila > or bhaavanaa. We are sitting at the dinner table, getting dishes for > ourselves. There is the second noble Truth: clinging. > The Buddha helped us by the satipatthaana sutta, mindfulness of the > body, clear comprehension: to be aware when walking, standing, > eating, etc. > >Nina, can you elaborate further on this: "Unless Kusala is involved: daana, siila or bhaavanaa." Are you saying that unless one or more of these arises, then the moment is akusala? What about moments of metta (or is that considered part of daana?) I am interested in hearing you talk more about this. Thanks, Ann #80598 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Brief Observation & Suggestion upasaka_howard Hi, Ann (and Nina) - In a message dated 12/29/2007 3:23:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, glenjohnann@... writes: Hello Nina et al --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: It is also beneficial to know that walking, extending the hand is > done mostly with lobha, clinging. We want to go to the other room, > want to get hold of things. Unless kusala is involved: daana, siila > or bhaavanaa. We are sitting at the dinner table, getting dishes for > ourselves. There is the second noble Truth: clinging. > The Buddha helped us by the satipatthaana sutta, mindfulness of the > body, clear comprehension: to be aware when walking, standing, > eating, etc. > >Nina, can you elaborate further on this: "Unless Kusala is involved: daana, siila or bhaavanaa." Are you saying that unless one or more of these arises, then the moment is akusala? What about moments of metta (or is that considered part of daana?) I am interested in hearing you talk more about this. Thanks, Ann ================================= There are also neutral states interspersed, when action occurs out of neutral chanda. But the switching back & forth among kusala, akusala, and kiriya (performative/neutral) is typically very fast and with subtle gradations, so that distinguishing is difficult and, for most of us, most of the time. With metta, Howard #80599 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy jonoabb Hi Alex Alex wrote: >>> No. The 3 above [J: anicca, dukkha, anattaa] are taught in an >>> EMPERIC way, always grounding in direct experience. >>> >>> >> Yes, and such direct experience is again panna doing its work, I think. >> > > Lets call it the NOBLE 8FOLD PATH. Period. > OK. I much prefer that to 'anattaa strategy' !! But I think we should be more specific than just "Noble 8-Fold Path". For example, we need to know whether the path factors are mental factors to be developed separately or whether they are mental factors that co-arise at moments of insight development (or something else altogether). What's your take on this? >> But you haven't explained how "anatta" (as a 'strategy') fits into the >> picture here [J: removal of 10 fetters or 3 roots]. >> > To completely let go of craving you utilizte Anatta as well as the > rest of N8P. > But you haven't yet explained what you mean by "using anatta (strategy)". If anatta is a characteristic of dhammas, how can it be *used* for something? What would be an example of this "using"? > Removal [J: of the fetters, hindrances] is COMPLETE AND FOREVER removal. > But before this can be done, temporary removal is good and still > required (ie: to get to Jhana). > To my understanding, jhana citta suppresses the hindrances. So I would question the idea that something needs to be done to remove the hindrances temporarily in order for jhana to be attained. Jon