#82800 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:54 am Subject: One an Image! bhikkhu0 Friends: Representation, Image, Display or Manifestation, but not Substance! What one 'see' is only an 'Image', not a thing !!! not a 'substance out there', but a construction, a mental experience, an immaterial sensation, created by sense-organ, mind & form ‘ in here’... Just like the image on the PC-screen is indeed electronically created & not 'really' in there. There is an image of an Apple on the screen, but no real apple inside the PC… Likewise: There is an image of an Apple on the mental visual screen, but from that image one cannot conclude, that a real apple exists outside, apart from or fully independent of this mind… !!! Like in the mirror, there is no 'Person'; Like in the cinema, there is no 'Actors'; There is only 'Images' of persons and things. They appear as real, but are Not really Real... Images of what then, one may ask? We will never know as we only have the mental images & never the 'original '! To claim that this 'original' exists, is then merely metaphysical speculation based on a somewhat naive, simple-minded - if not even childish – materialist world view… Seeing Images instead of Realities is halfway to seeing Nothingness… Seeing Nothingness is halfway to disabling the urge of Craving… Disabling Craving is halfway to te deathless dimension NibbÄ?na! The Blessed Buddha once said: In the seen is merely the process of seeing & what is seen. In the heard is merely the process of hearing & what is heard. In the sensed is merely the process of sensing & what is sensed. In the thought is merely the process of thinking & what is thought of. So knowing, you will not be connected with that… So disconnected, you will not be absorbed in that... So neither ‘with that’ nor ‘in that’ you are! not by that sensation. When there is no ‘you’ inferred or conjectured by that sensation, then ‘you’ are neither ‘here’, ‘there’, ‘both’, ‘beyond’ nor ‘in between’… Only this - is the End of Suffering!!! Source: Udana – Inspiration: I – 10 Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) #82801 From: "colette" Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:48 pm Subject: That's easy for you to say. ksheri3 Hi Larry, Thanx for the advice however I think you may be under the impression that my roomates are "meaningful" to me when they are just friends: they live and consume upstairs in the warm beautiful home while I stay in the COLD DARK BASEMENT. Theirs is a fixation on conditions which do not exist. The immediate experience is totally OUT OF THEIR LEAGUE since they are so consumed with gratifying themselves. EVERYTHING revolves around them, for instance I ask if, after shoveling the entire sidewalk, walkways, and entry ways to the house, I ask if I can get some kind of good food from them and their reply is typically "We didn't ask you to do that" as if I only do things that they ask me to do, that my life would not exist if it wasn't for them and their gift of life to me, etc. They fail, ALWAYS, to see, as I say to them, look it's not a point of you asking me to do something, that thing would still have to be done whether or not you took the time to see it, I do it and did it becasue it was going to HAVE TO BE DONE! Still all I get is condescending or codescention. Which puts me back to SUNYATA: it eather IS or IT IS NOT. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > Colette: "Any ideas of this strange characteristic of HATE and HATRED > that I've noticed and began dissecting? > > Larry: I would say forget the case history and try to coax your room > mate into recognizing the immediate experience. Keep it simple, don't > over analyze, don't be side-tracked. Let it go. > > Good luck. > > Larry > #82802 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:07 pm Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... dhammanusara Hi James (Nina, Scott), - MN 63 is very good because the Buddha drew a sharp line dividing what he taught and what he did not. Thank you for the quote. >James: Good question! Because they amount to speculative views. In my opinion it is clear the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma, although I have not completed my study of the seven books yet ["The collection consists of seven books: the Dhammasangani, the Vibhanga, the Dhatukatha, the Puggalapaññatti, the Kathavatthu, the Yamaka, and the Patthana. Unlike the Suttas, these are not records of discourses and discussions occurring in real-life settings; they are, rather, full- blown treatises in which the principles of the doctrine have been methodically organized, minutely defined, and meticulously tabulated and classified". Introduction, A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by U Rewata Dhamma and Bhikkhu Bodhi ]. There have been several discussions at DSG on this subject in the past. I do not know if they are conclusive, 'cause i have not read all of the posts. Question: What are, in you opinion, the speculative views about 'ultimate reality', and why? I ask this question because I am interested to know your thought about these views. Do not answer this question if you don't feel comfortable for any reason. But if you have time and patience (more than Howard and Han Tun have) then please do answer it for me. I shall be glad if you do. >James: Additionally, the label "ultimate reality" is a misnomer. There is only one reality. How we understand that reality is what makes the difference. T: We differ on that. I understand that the term 'ultimate reality' (paramatthadhamma) is about realities(dhammas, phenomenon) in the highest sense : i.e. dhammas (including the ariya saccas) that are penetrated by direct knowledges of the ariyas. If you can wait till I complete my study of the seven Abhidhamma books (about one year from today), I 'll be glad to discuss this subject matter with you again. Regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > T: Why do views about "ultimate reality" fail to help us understand > > the noble truths, James? > > #82803 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] That's easy for you to say. lbidd2 Hi Cinderella, er Colette, C: "SUNYATA: it either IS or IT IS NOT." Larry: Okay, go with that! Larry #82804 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 2/16/2008 6:11:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi James (and Howard), - I asked Howard this question because I thought he had not answered it yet : > > >T: Do you, Howard, agree or do not agree with James that Dependent > >Origination gives the true meaning of "person" (or "being" as you > >wish) that nama & rupa cannot? T: And he wrote back (Boy! He was mean, wasn't he?): >Howard (#82781): >I've already made it quite clear how I understand the matter, and I find no need to rephrase my formulation in the agree/disagree format that you are demanding. A person is not just an aggregate, but an aggregation (as I have defined it). I've stated what I mean by that several times and in several ways, emphasizing interrelationships, conditionality, impermanence, kamma, clinging, and dependent origination, and that will just have to suffice. ------------------------------------------------------ T: So I felt bad, thinking : "Tep, you are an idiot! You offended your good friend Howard because you were confused and unable to penetrate his deep and highly intelligent thesis on the 'aggregation', even though he had repeatedly and clearly expressed what he meant". James, I am so glad you let me know that you are in the same boat. James (#82793): Thank you so much for zeroing in on what I am trying to say! I thought that maybe I wasn't making myself clear enough. Unfortunately I see that Howard doesn't want to answer this question. He is being very stubborn. Pity. T: Thank you very much, James, for admitting that you also see that he has not yet answered that question. Now I don't feel so stupid anymore. ;-)) Regards, Tep ============================== I apologize for expressing my anger, Tep. With metta, Howard #82805 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James dhammanusara Hi Howard, - It was a surprise for me to see your apology! I gladly accept it. It must have been aggravating, when you were unable to get the message across. I promise you to go back to your previous posts again, Howard. I might have missed a lot. But this is a difficult issue, so please give me more time. Sincerely, your friend, Tep -------------- >Howard: > I apologize for expressing my anger, Tep. #82806 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James upasaka_howard Thanks, Tep. :-) With metta, Howard #82807 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James buddhatrue Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Howard, James, Tep > > > Since the question seems to be trying to trap Howard into responding or > dealing with a deluded premise, I think he is wise not to deal with it. James: I beg your pardon! I have provided a quote where the Buddha explained that clinging cannot be seen as the same as the aggregates and yet not different than them either. Howard's response was that he didn't understand what the Buddha meant. I am just following the letter of what the Buddha taught. If that is deluded then the Buddha was deluded. TG, won't do you answer the question. He has > already answered in detail about Dependent Arising. James: How could he answer in detail about dependent origination when I didn't ask anything about dependent origination? > > > Nama and Rupa can in no way be properly understood outside the context of > Dependent Arising and vice versa. So to try to separate them as approaches to > understanding ... is non-sense. James: I am not trying to separate them. I am just not combining them like Howard is doing. > > > TG Metta, James #82808 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James TGrand458@... Hi James, Howard, Tep, In a message dated 2/16/2008 9:52:23 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: James: I beg your pardon! I have provided a quote where the Buddha explained that clinging cannot be seen as the same as the aggregates and yet not different than them either. Howard's response was that he didn't understand what the Buddha meant. I am just following the letter of what the Buddha taught. If that is deluded then the Buddha was deluded. TG, won't do you answer the question. .......................................................... I missed this post and was responding to a later post. Sorry if I confused the issue. In the Sutta you reference, the Buddha's explains what he means...and says -- paraphrasing -- "it is the clinging associated with the 5 aggregates that is the clinging therein." Clinging can therefore be seen as fire burning wood. The fire is not the same as the wood nor is it totally different. But it is associated with the wood and can "move on" to burn "other" wood. Therefore, fire is capable of sequential propagation as long as there are conditions that can support it. Much like craving. TG #82809 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. lbidd2 Hi James, MN109: "Monk, clinging is neither the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, nor is it separate from the five clinging-aggregates. Just that whatever passion & delight is there, that's the clinging there." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.109.than.html James: "So, clinging is not the same as the five khandhas (including nama) and it is not something that is separate from the five khandhas, it is part of the process of dependent origination." Larry: MN44 has the same paragraph and there the commentary says clinging is not the same as the 5 aggregates because it is only a part of them and it is not separate from the 5 aggregates because there is no clinging without the 5 aggregates. It is also, as you say part of dependent arising. Each link in dependent arising is part of the 5 aggregates. And, as you say, understanding nama and rupa is not the whole story. But this story isn't the story of a person. It is the story of not-a-person. Understanding dependent arising is a more comprehensive understanding of no person (anatta). Not understanding dependent arising there is at least the suspicion that there is a past, present, or future person. This was the main point of Purification by Overcoming Doubt which Sarah just presented. But even this understanding barely scratches the surface as we will see in the remaining Purifications. One manifestation of clinging is belief in a person and one might well say that this belief perpetuates dependent arising. On another note, there is the nature of relationship. The 5 khandhas arise together within a certain continuity. One could call this relationship a person, but a relationship is even less tangible than namarupa. Dependence is the heart of relationship. Larry #82810 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 9 (Conclusion) kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > <. . .> > N: Anantara paccaya, proximity condition is very important. If there > were gaps former accumulations of kusala and akusala could not be > carried on, kamma could not produce vipaaka later on. > The dying-consciousness falls away and is immediately followed by the > rebirth-consciousness and thus all former accumulations continue to > the next life. The cycle of birth and death continues on so long as > ignorance has not been eradicated. > Do insist if you have further questions, it is an important subject. > Thanks Nina, I seem to remember now that this has been explained to me before - probably by you. Continuation is the key: if there was a gap then there could be no continuation. Yes, I think I can see that. I am also interested in why the texts present the fact of no-gap in conjunction with the fact of no-self. For example, Sarah quoted: "They have no interval between, Nor gap [that separates the two]; While naught whatever passes over," I assume between them they negate two broad classifications of wrong view: no-gap negates the view that dhammas arise spontaneously without a cause, while 'nothing that passes over' negates the view that the cause of dhammas is a controlling self. Ken H #82811 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:08 am Subject: Re: Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 9 (Conclusion) kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Saint-Onge" wrote: > <. . .> > > It's hard to see how "gaps" are possible in a multi-lifetime > continuous process like this. At the same time, it's probably safe to > say that the entire point of practice is to create one. > > Hi Bill, I think I know what you mean: parinibbana is the final cessation of the khandhas. That would constitute a bit more than a gap, though, wouldn't it? :-) Ken H #82812 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism XIX, 'Overcoming Doubt' 9 (Conclusion) nilovg Dear Kan H, Op 17-feb-2008, om 9:03 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > "They have no interval between, > Nor gap [that separates the two]; > While naught whatever passes over," > > I assume between them they negate two broad classifications of wrong > view: no-gap negates the view that dhammas arise spontaneously > without a cause, while 'nothing that passes over' negates the view > that the cause of dhammas is a controlling self. ------- N: > 1: "They have no interval between, > Nor gap [that separates the two]; > 2: While naught whatever passes over," 1: negates annihilation view, and you are right in that this view denies that dhammas arise because of conditions. 2: negates the view of eternalism: the view that a self travels from past existence to the next one. Nina. #82813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro nilovg Hi Larry, Op 16-feb-2008, om 16:16 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Nina, can you give us two examples of prompted insight, one example > of insight > prompted by oneself and one example of insight prompted by another? ------- N: No, this is not possible. The terms prompted, sasa"nkhaarika, and asa"nkhaarika indicate the quality of the citta at a particular moment. When insight is asa"nkhaarika it is arising, as is said, spontaneously, and when sasa"nkhaarika it is not as strong, as is said; more hesitating. All this is said in a figurative way, just as the terms induced or not induced, to explain the difference in intensity. This is explained in Vis. XIV, 84, etc. < Tiika: As to the expression not urged (by others), this means not prompted in any way. In this way he shows the practice of meritorious deeds with its essential properties. As to the expression, (unurged) by others, by this he explains a natural effort. N: The effort for kusala arises spontaneously, without being prompted. prompted: Tiika: With a mind that looks at the gifts that are to be given with restricted generosity. By the word (through restricted generosity,) etc., he deals with lack of determination in the undertaking of morality and so on. N: There is some hesitation and indecisiveness with regard to daana, siila and the other kinds of kusala when the kusala citta is prompted. When one observes siila with the second type of kusala citta, the confidence in kusala, respect for the Buddha and metta and respect for one’s fellowmen is not as strong as in the case of the first type of kusala citta that is unprompted. The Tiika then explains the meaning of prior urging on or prompting, which should not be taken in the sense of prior in time. The Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (p. 13) explains: This explanation indicates the difference in quality between kusala citta that arises spontaneously, without any hesitation, and kusala citta that is more hesitant, that needs prompting. We do not have to think of prompting beforehand. There are many different degrees of kusala and they are dependent on different conditions. Confidence in the benefit of kusala has many degrees. Through satipatthana confidence in kusala develops. -------- Thus, we need not think of the conventional term prompting that precedes the citta. Now you can see that it is hard to give examples, who can tell the difference? Only by being aware of one's 'own' citta. Understanding citta as a dhamma arisen becaus of its proper conditions. Listening and considering are the conditions for the arising of insight. Is it not enough to know this? Nina. #82814 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:20 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin reminded us that it is not sufficient to think that everything is anattå. Precisely at this very moment we must try to understand anattå. We are alone, only dhammas appear one at a time through the senses and the mind-door. We think time and again of people we love, we find our thoughts about them very important. But what we take for people are dhammas arising and falling away immediately. What has fallen away never returns. We have to develop paññå at this moment so that we shall understand the truth of anattå. There is seeing at this moment and very gradually we can learn that it is a dhamma that sees. Jonothan remarked that one should be honest with regard to one’s defilements. Truthfulness, sacca, is one of the perfections that the Bodhisatta developed during countless lives. Lodewijk said that he found the perfection of Truthfulness essential, but very difficult to develop. When he reads in the Sutta that the Buddha said, ‘Abandon evil... it can be done...’ he feels that he is insincere, since he clings to all the pleasant things of life and does not want to give them up. He said that before one realizes it, one is misleading oneself as to kusala and akusala. Jonothan said that there are moments of understanding dhammas, and moments of ignorance. When there is awareness and right understanding of a dhamma one is on the Path the Buddha taught. Actually, being on the Path is momentary, and when understanding does not arise, which happens most of the time, the Path is not developed. However, he said, this is not a cause for concern. Even when the moments of developing the Path are very few, it is a great gain hearing the right Dhamma and listening to it with sincere interest. There can be moments of reflecting, considering, moments of kusala and paññå. We may reflect on the Path leading to enlightenment, but Acharn Sujin always says: “But what about this moment?” I find it very helpful to remember that citta and the Path-factors which are cetasikas arise for a moment and then fall away. This is in conformity with real life. Lodewijk said that it seemed to him that he had more understanding when in India, visiting the holy places. But now it seems that the little understanding he had is lost when he is back in the routine of life in Holland. I reminded him of what Jonothan had said to him in India about the Path being momentary. It is good to be reminded that the moments of sati and paññå arise and fall away and that we cannot keep them. The understanding that arises is never lost, it is accumulated and it can grow. ***** Nina. #82815 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:31 am Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. jonoabb Hi Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi James (Howard, Nina, Jon), - Since you've included me in this post, let me add a comment ;-)) > You told Nina and Howard : > >James: As I wrote before, "person" cannot be defined as simply the > five khandas (nama and rupa) but as a process detailed in dependent > origination. I also wrote that when you get right down to the basics, > "person" should be defined by "clinging" not by the five khandas. > > T: The aggregates of clinging is dukkha. With birth there is > a "person", and birth is "the origination of this entire mass of > stress & suffering". Through Dependent Origination we learn > that "from clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes > becoming", and "from becoming as a requisite condition comes birth". > So it is true that to completely define "person" one needs to get the > clue from Dependent Origination. I think trying to define "person" in terms of paramattha dhammas is likely to prove an exasperating task, because a person cannot be "deconstructed" into different namas and rupas. All that can be said is that what we *take to be* a person is, in the ultimate sense, nothing more than namas and rupas/the five aggregates. Thus, at moments of seeing consciousness, the object is visible object, but not *the visible object aspect of a person*. > The right discernment ('This is not mine. This is not my self. This > is not what I am.') abandons three things: craving, attanuditthi > (self views, identity views) in the aggregates, and mana (I-am > conceit). I think the whole ignorance about person, personality and > identity is eradicated by such right discernment. I agree that ignorance is eradicated by right understanding, as is wrong view. With the eradication of wrong view, there is no more taking of "person" as having any substance, because there is no more wrong view about the nature of dhammas. Jon #82816 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi James I did not get around to replying to this post of yours before leaving Hong Kong, but have managed to find it on the website (I don't have access to my saved emails). --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Jon, again, > ... > I have done some research and I would conclude that mundane insight > arises from contemplation of the khandas (i.e. 4 Foundations of > Mindfulness) and supramundane insight arises from the contemplation of > cessation (i.e. nibbana). I agree with what you say here, as long as by "contemplation" you refer to panna that takes the khandhas/nibbana as object. > You are correct in saying that insight > (panna) doesn't arise by contemplating "people". We agree! > However, again, that doesn't mean that ariyan's see people/beings as > not existing; they just see beings in a deeper manner. In other > words, they see past the surface appearance. But as just discussed above it is dhammas/the khandhas that is the object of panna and thus that become known more deeply. And the ariyan has come to see that what is taken for "person" is nothing other than the khandhas, mere elements that have no abiding substance. So while there is a (unique) stream of consciousness that is what is taken to be a "person", there is no real substance there to "exist". To put it another way, the deeper things (i.e., dhammas) are seen, the more it becomes apparent that there is nothing that "exists", except to the extent that dhammas themselves exist. My (purely theoretical) understanding of the teachings, anyway. Jon #82817 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James upasaka_howard Hi, James (and TG) - In a message dated 2/16/2008 11:52:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Howard, James, Tep > > > Since the question seems to be trying to trap Howard into responding or > dealing with a deluded premise, I think he is wise not to deal with it. James: I beg your pardon! I have provided a quote where the Buddha explained that clinging cannot be seen as the same as the aggregates and yet not different than them either. Howard's response was that he didn't understand what the Buddha meant. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not a very precise formulation of my response, James. I said that I wasn't SURE, but I did propose an understanding. What I said exactly was the following: << I don't know for sure what the Buddha meant in saying "clinging is neither the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, nor is it separate from the five clinging-aggregates." Possibly he meant that the clinging is not the five heaps (and of course it is not), and it also isn't separate from them, because it is included in sankharakkhandha. It is part of that aggregate, is it not? That may be exactly what the Buddha meant in saying "Just that whatever passion & delight is there, that's the clinging there." >> ------------------------------------------------------- I am just following the letter of what the Buddha taught. If that is deluded then the Buddha was deluded. TG, won't do you answer the question. He has > already answered in detail about Dependent Arising. James: How could he answer in detail about dependent origination when I didn't ask anything about dependent origination? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------- Howard: WHAT? James, you had written the following yesterday: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Hi Tep (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > T: Do you, Howard, agree or do not agree with James that Dependent > Origination gives the true meaning of "person" (or "being" as you > wish) that nama & rupa cannot? Thank you so much for zeroing in on what I am trying to say! I thought that maybe I wasn't making myself clear enough. Unfortunately I see that Howard doesn't want to answer this question. He is being very stubborn. Pity. Metta, James - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - And earlier yesterday you had written the following: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Hi Howard and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > There were discussions on metta, and I do not want to continue long > with this thread. Tomorrow I go out. > I find it very realistic to see a person as cittas and cetasikas, and > as rupas. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > So do I -- as an ever-changing, collection of interrelated namas and > rupas acting in concert; a dynamic collection of material and mental phenomena. > I can't imagine what else a person would be. As I wrote before, "person" cannot be defined as simply the five khandas (nama and rupa) but as a process detailed in dependent origination. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - It is because of these posts that I wrote you back about dependent origination. I didn't write about that out of the blue, but in response to your points. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- > > > Nama and Rupa can in no way be properly understood outside the context of > Dependent Arising and vice versa. So to try to separate them as approaches to > understanding ... is non-sense. James: I am not trying to separate them. I am just not combining them like Howard is doing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Howard: Huh? What is it I'm allegedly doing? Combining what? I'm not combining namas with rupas - they are different, and I'm not combining namas & rupas on the one hand with dependent origination on the other. Dependent origination is a complex of conditionality relations holding among namas and rupas, mainly namas. Where am I "combining" anything? I don't even get what you mean by the "combining". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================= With metta, Howard #82818 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:11 am Subject: E-card from Bangkok - Concerns, interests, accumulations ...... sarahprocter... Dear Nina & All, We all arrive at the discussions (or at DSG) with different concerns and interests. What we hear, consider and reflect on depends entirely on accumulations and other conditions at the time of course. We had a lively discussion at the Foundation yesterday with A.Sujin. The room was very full with several of us having come from overseas specially. Some friends have extended their visits to attend the sessions over the next few days, like Azita, Pinna, Nina W & Shakti. Ven Pannabahulo had also specially come down from Chengmai. Jill J was also visiting from N. Queensland and regulars included Rob K, Ivan (Matt), Ell and Sukin and other Thai friends of course! Ven P started by raising his concerns about conditioned dhammas (as he did here). He was concerned about his friend's response 'it depends on conditions' which was given to a simple question of Ven P's after hearing A.Sujin in Chengmai! K.Sujin stressed that there has to be an understanding of seeing,visible object and other paramattha dhammas . No self to make anything happen. In response to concerns about whether there's anything that "I can do", she said that of course there is nothing "I can do" because there is no self! A few other points I scribbled down or which come to mind now (randomly given): - wrong thinking takes things for permanent like people and things. More on eternity and annihilation view in this context at this moment. When visible object is seen, the annihilation view doesn't understand it as arising by conditions. The eternity view sees it as lasting. Uplifiting or scary? Some discussion later and also on seeing the danger of conditioned dhammas. - a question on anusayas (latent tendencies) and wholesome accumulations as well. Each little bit of right understanding is not lost. - a question on sati. Why are we so interested in it? Lobha (attachment). What about right understanding? - Wanting to penetrate the nature of realities without any understanding at all. - Listening - understanding it at different levels , getting closer and closer to understanding the realities at this moment. - Meditation techniques, noting vs present moment understanding. Understanding first! - Phil's suttas which read like conventional urgings rather than an understanding of paramattha dhammas. We must appreciate the meaning of contemplation. It has to be with understanding, awakening to the truth as taught by the Buddha. - The Sigolavada Sutta - all the boy could understand, sati at that level as condition for later wisdom. Understanding has to develop little by little, but it's still about paramattha dhammas. KS also referred to an account (I think it's in a commentary?) where 500 boys became enlightened after hearing a little. They had to have heard much more about realities - not all of it was recorded. Realities are always implied. If panna is accumulated enough, it doesn't matter what words are heard. - Can we believe all the suttas? Can we trust the commentaries? - 4 brahma viharas. Right understanding leads to all kinds of kusala. An 'order' of the brahma-viharas. Metta as most common, leading to the others and accompanying them. Having karuna or upekkha, there must be metta too. For example, we may know we cannot help. There is metta, but also we're not disturbed by the situation or person. We can think about people and countries and situations, but what about the mind at such times? Kusala or akusala? Instead of being concerned about other matters and subjects, what about this moment of thinking? This world, one's own world to be cleaned up or thinking about others with lobha or dosa? - On the Vitakkasanthana Sutta and pressing the tongue against the roof of the mouth. When it's not satipatthana, there are conditions or other dhammas to arise. Are there degrees of understanding? There are, but is there any understanding of degrees? What degree of understanding is there at this moment? - On right effort, who can have effort at will? At the moment of thinking, there is effort already at that moment of thinking of making an effort. It's not necessary to think, to do. - Satipatthana - we keep thinking about situations, but what about the reality right then and right now? There is a reality at that moment and sati follows. It doesn't think about the future object. - The Bodhisatta's austerity practices and the commentary summary note I gave from the Mahasaccaka Sutta (#82592). K.Sujin was interested to read the full commentary. He had right understanding, but a lot of accumulated viriya (right effort). It wasn't the right time to become enlightened and if it's not the right time, even with such great viriya, there's no result. The Bodhisatta's intention when following this course wasn't for others to see or copy, but others who knew about it would see his accumulated great viriya. Earlier she had suggested that because of the great accumulated viriya, there was some idea of trying very hard to suppress kilesa (defilements), but because of the great understanding, he knew that wasn't right. It doesn't mean there was any great wrong view about life. - Any other way to develop understanding (other than listening, considering and so on)? The other way is wrong way! ******** We've had a quiet day today and Jon has had to do quite a lot of work (law drafting homework). We look forward to seeing friends at the Foundation for further discussions over the next 3 days. Meanwhile, enjoying all the lively discussions on the list. Thx to all! Metta, Sarah ======== #82819 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. jonoabb Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > Hi Jon, James, Tep, All. > > Just as a certain level of insight sees there is no "person" in terms of a > "singular self contained thing;" so too, a deeper level of insight can see that > the elements, aggregates are also not "self contained things." I'm not sure where you get this terminology of a "self-contained thing" from. I don't think it was from the texts and it certainly wasn't from me! Therefore, > in truth, to see elements, aggregates individually, is the same type of > delusion as to see a "person" as a real self contained thing. Seeing elements is > just more refined and a little closer to the truth of the matter. But it is > still removed from the truth of the matter. To my reading of the texts, elements are "bedrock" already. Why else would they be considered as "elements"? Are > Focusing on the elements, aggregates to uproot the idea of "person" is > useful. Deeper insight focuses on the conditionality of elements, aggregates, to > realize that these things are also empty, hollow, and not worth adhering to. > To linger on them as "realities" is counterproductive. The development of insight is not a matter of "focussing on" (or "lingering on") elements/dhammas or anything. It's a matter of things being seen as they truly are (which, according to the Buddha's explanation, is as elements/dhammas that are anicca, dukkha and anatta). The conditionality of elements cannot be seen until the panna that sees elements for what they truly are has been developed (but not by "focussing"!) Jon #82820 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. nilovg Hi James, Op 16-feb-2008, om 22:15 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > N: Instead of defining, would you like to replace this with: > > originating or condiitoning? So long as there are ignorance and > > craving there is rebirth of an individual again and again. > > Nina. > > I don't understand what you mean. ------ N: I was not so happy with the word defining. Meanwhile the discussion moved on and Jon also answered. Nina. #82821 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:02 am Subject: Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. dhammanusara Hi Jon (James, Howard, Scott, TG), - I am glad to see your reply. >Jon: Since you've included me in this post, let me add a comment ;-)) T: A true gentleman never ignores a request for a comment. :-) >Jon: Thus, at moments of seeing consciousness, the object is visible object, but not *the visible object aspect of a person*. T: That idea, which I agee in principle, is a truth in the ultimate sense that is not what puthujjhana is able to extract from the *overall* reality. The overall reality includes both worldly sense and ultimate sense. The view of any puthujjana who ignores the worldly sense is at best one-sided. .......... Jon: I agree that ignorance is eradicated by right understanding, as is wrong view. With the eradication of wrong view, there is no more taking of "person" as having any substance, because there is no more wrong view about the nature of dhammas. T: Absolutely. But are we *there* yet? To insist on seeing the ariya right view in a puthujjana is an ignorance. How can a view that is infested with ignorance be right view? Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep > (snipped) > > I think trying to define "person" in terms of paramattha dhammas is > likely to prove an exasperating task, because a person cannot be > "deconstructed" into different namas and rupas. > > All that can be said is that what we *take to be* a person is, in the ultimate sense, nothing more than namas and rupas/the five aggregates. > > Thus, at moments of seeing consciousness, the object is visible > object, but not *the visible object aspect of a person*. > #82822 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:05 am Subject: Han in good humour sarahprocter... Dear Friends, inc. Dear Han, I just had a long chat with Han who is still in hospital. He's having to take a lot of potent medication by injections for infections, but is hoping to return home tomorrow night and continue treatment as an out-patient. He says that when he returns home he looks forward to looking at any responses to his threads, so please continue to add any input on them. He told me he's also planning to write an open letter to the Buddha, pointing out a 'lapse' on the Buddha's part!! (It's just Han's good humour and I'm sure she'll share his open letter with us all -it's on Dukkha, but I couldn't hear all the detail, so won't attempt to say more). Wishing you a good recovery, Han! We miss you! Metta, Sarah ======== #82823 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:08 am Subject: new members sarahprocter... Dear Walter, Bill & any other new members, Welcome to DSG, Walter. I saw your message and look forward to reading more! If you care to fill us in on any of your background anytime, it's always interesting. Bill, I remember you from some time back. Good to see you again. I think you were from the States? Again, I look forward to more discussion in due course. Metta, Sarah ======== #82824 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:09 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 46 16. Mahaanipaato Conclusion Taa sabbaapi yathaa sammaasambuddhassa saavikaabhaavena ekavidhaa, tathaa asekhabhaavena ukkhittapalighataaya sa.mki.n.naparikkhataaya abbuu.lhesikataaya niraggalataaya pannabhaarataaya visa~n~nuttataaya dasasu ariyavaasesu vu.t.thavaasataaya ca, tathaa hi taa pa~nca"ngavippahiinaa cha.la"ngasamannaagataa ekaarakkhaa caturaapassenaa pa.nunnapaccekasaccaa samavayasa.t.thesanaa anaavilasa"nkappaa passaddhakaayasa"nkhaaraa suvimuttacittaa suvimuttapa~n~naa caati evamaadinaa (dii. ni. 3.360) nayena ekavidhaa. They are all of one sort through 1. [the theriis'] being disciples of the Fully and Perfectly Awakened one. Similarly, [they are alike] 2. through being beyond training, 3. through having lifted the crossbar [by abandoning ignorance], 4. through filling in the moat [by abandoning the round of births that brings renewed existence], 5. through having uprooted the pillar [by abandoning craving], 6. through having withdrawn the bolt [by abandoning the five lower fetters], 7. through having dropped their burden [through abandoning the conceit "I am"],* 8. through being detached from the world, and 9. they have lived according to the ten conditions of the noble ones:** i. They have abandoned five factors [pa~nc'-a"nga-vippahiino, the five hindrances (niivara.na) of desire for sensual pleasures (kaama-cchanda), malevolence (vypaada), sloth and torpor (thiina-middha), agitation and worry (uddhacca-kukkucca), and uncertainty (vicikicchaa)].*** ii. They were possessed of six factors [cha.l'-a"nga-samannaagato, remaining equable, mindful, and cleary aware with regard to what is seen, heard, smelled, tasted, touched, and cognized]. iii. They have one guard [ikaarakkho, guarding the mind with mindfulness]. iv. They [possess] the four supports [catuaapasseno, judging that one thing is to be pursued, one thing endured, one thing avoided, one thing suppressed]. v. They have rejected the truth of individuality [panu.n.na-pacceka-sacco, the beliefs held by the majority of ascetics and brahmans]. vi. They have abandoned searching [samavaya-sa.t.thesano, for sense desires, rebirth, and the holy life]. vii. They have calm thoughts [anaavila-sa"nkappo, having abandoned thoughts of sensuality, ill will, and cruelty]. viii. Their bodily formations are calmed [passaddha-kaaya-sa"n-khaaro,**** by giving up pleasure and pain with the disappearance of former gladness and sadness and by entering a state beyond pleasure and pain that is purified by equanimity - the fourth absorption state]. ix. The [possess] complete mental freedom [suvimutta-citto, by being liberated from the thought of greed, hatred, and delusion]. x. They [possess] complete freedom through wisdom [suvimutta-pa~n~no, by understanding that they themselves have abandoned greed, hatred, and delusion]. In this way, they are of one sort beginning with such conduct. *In M and A, there is a group of three for this one: a noble one whose banner is lowered, whose burden is lowered, one who is unfettered. **These ten are found in D III 269, 291 (LDB 509) and A V 29 (GS V 21). ***The details in square brackets are from the explanation of the terms at D III 269 (LDB 509). ****LBD translates "tranquillized his emotions," and explains kaaya is being taken as meaning the mental body (p.622, n.1130). .. to be continued, connie #82825 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] new members armyponcho_d... Sarah, Yes, I have been here before, thank you for remembering. :) Even though I have been "gone," I have continued to engage the process. With respect, Bill sarah abbott wrote: Dear Walter, Bill & any other new members, Welcome to DSG, Walter. I saw your message and look forward to reading more! If you care to fill us in on any of your background anytime, it's always interesting. Bill, I remember you from some time back. Good to see you again. I think you were from the States? Again, I look forward to more discussion in due course. Metta, Sarah ======== #82826 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] new members dhammanusara Hi Bill, - I hope you don't mind this non-dhamma question: the nickname 'armyponcho_dot_dad' sounds cute, but what does it mean? Thanks. Tep === #82827 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] new members armyponcho_d... Hi Tep, Tep Sastri wrote: Hi Bill, - I hope you don't mind this non-dhamma question: the nickname 'armyponcho_dot_dad' sounds cute, but what does it mean? Thanks. Tep ======================= About 15 years ago, when my daughter was in early elementary school, she played on a soccer league. During one of the games, it began to rain quite hard. Since there was no lightning, the coach allowed the game to continue and all the bystander-parents scrambled to their cars for whatever rain gear they might have. All I had -- by chance-- was an old, old camouflaged army poncho that I kept in the trunk for emergencies. So while the other parents were able to come up with $300 tailored gore-tex raincoats, I ended up on the sidelines looking like a bedraggled POW from the Korean War. My daughter thought it was funny, and later that day, as we happened to be setting up an email account for me, she coined the name: armyponcho_dot_dad. Since then I've thought about changing it many times, but that --of course--is impossible. How could a person ever give back such a gift? :) #82828 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James buddhatrue Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > Clinging can therefore be seen as fire burning wood. The fire is not the > same as the wood nor is it totally different. But it is associated with the > wood and can "move on" to burn "other" wood. Therefore, fire is capable of > sequential propagation as long as there are conditions that can support it. > Much like craving. Excellent!! This is a very good interpretation- which fits in with the Buddha's Fire Sermon. Metta, James #82829 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humour nilovg Dear Sarah and Han, Op 17-feb-2008, om 14:05 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I just had a long chat with Han who is still in hospital. ------ N: I am so glad he is well. Lodewijk and I talked a lot about Han and we were worried. Thank you Sarah, for your nice E card. I am glad so many friends had come from far, and as I see the discussions were excellent. Nina. #82830 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi James, > > MN109: "Monk, clinging is neither the same thing as the five > clinging-aggregates, nor is it separate from the five > clinging-aggregates. Just that whatever passion & delight is there, > that's the clinging there." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.109.than.html > > James: "So, clinging is not the same as the five khandhas (including > nama) and it is not something that is separate from the five khandhas, > it is part of the process of dependent origination." > > Larry: MN44 has the same paragraph and there the commentary says > clinging is not the same as the 5 aggregates because it is only a part > of them and it is not separate from the 5 aggregates because there is no > clinging without the 5 aggregates. James: That commentary is completely idiotic. I think that TG has given a much better explanation. It is also, as you say part of > dependent arising. Each link in dependent arising is part of the 5 > aggregates. James: The five aggregates are a part of dependent origination, not the other way around. And, as you say, understanding nama and rupa is not the > whole story. But this story isn't the story of a person. It is the story > of not-a-person. Understanding dependent arising is a more comprehensive > understanding of no person (anatta). James: Anatta doesn't mean "not a person". Anatta means nothing is self, nothing is permanent. Not understanding dependent arising > there is at least the suspicion that there is a past, present, or future > person. This was the main point of Purification by Overcoming Doubt > which Sarah just presented. But even this understanding barely scratches > the surface as we will see in the remaining Purifications. > > One manifestation of clinging is belief in a person and one might well > say that this belief perpetuates dependent arising. James: Well, let's just completely rewrite dependent origination, shall we? No where does the Buddha describe DO in this way. > > On another note, there is the nature of relationship. The 5 khandhas > arise together within a certain continuity. One could call this > relationship a person, but a relationship is even less tangible than > namarupa. James: Now you are starting to get on the same page I am on! > > Dependence is the heart of relationship. > > Larry > Metta, James #82831 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:29 am Subject: Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James ... Fire Simile ... dhammanusara Hi TG, - Thank you for your fire simile of craving. > TG: > Clinging can therefore be seen as fire burning wood. The fire is not the same as the wood nor is it totally different. But it is associated with the wood and can "move on" to burn "other" wood. Therefore, fire is capable of sequential propagation as long as there are conditions that can support it. > Much like craving. > T: The fire that is burning wood is known as wood fire. The fire that is burning charcoal is called charcoal fire. Wood or charcoal sustain the fire that is named according to its sustenance. So it is only 50% correct to say that "fire is not the same as the wood nor is it totally different". Fire is totally different from its sustenance as craving is totally different from feeling (that sustains craving). ........... Sutta Quotes: SN 12.52 : Upadana Sutta ------------------------ "Just as if a great mass of fire of ten... twenty... thirty or forty cartloads of timber were burning, into which a man simply would not time & again throw dried grass, dried cow dung, or dried timber, so that the great mass of fire — its original sustenance being consumed, and no other being offered — would, without nutriment, go out. In the same way, in one who keeps focusing on the drawbacks of clingable phenomena, craving ceases. ..." SN 44.9 : Kutuhalasala Sutta ----------------------------------- "Of course you are befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you are uncertain. When there is a reason for befuddlement in you, uncertainty arises. I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance, Vaccha, and not of one without sustenance. Just as a fire burns with sustenance and not without sustenance, even so I designate the rebirth of one who has sustenance and not of one without sustenance." "But, Master Gotama, at the moment a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, what do you designate as its sustenance then?" "Vaccha, when a flame is being swept on by the wind and goes a far distance, I designate it as wind-sustained, for the wind is its sustenance at that time." "And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?" "Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time." ............... Regards, Tep === #82832 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James buddhatrue Hi Howard, I was running out the door to attend the Lantern Festival when I wrote to TG so it was rather rushed. I didn't spend a lot of time to give every detail and just paraphrased. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and TG) - > > In a message dated 2/16/2008 11:52:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > Hi TG, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@ wrote: > > > > > Hi Howard, James, Tep > > > > > > Since the question seems to be trying to trap Howard into responding > or > > dealing with a deluded premise, I think he is wise not to deal with it. > > James: I beg your pardon! I have provided a quote where the Buddha > explained that clinging cannot be seen as the same as the aggregates > and yet not different than them either. Howard's response was that he > didn't understand what the Buddha meant. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's not a very precise formulation of my response, James. I said that > I wasn't SURE, but I did propose an understanding. What I said exactly was > the following: > << I don't know for sure what the Buddha meant in saying "clinging is > neither the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, nor is it separate from the > five clinging-aggregates." Possibly he meant that the clinging is not the > five heaps (and of course it is not), and it also isn't separate from them, > because it is included in sankharakkhandha. It is part of that aggregate, is it > not? That may be exactly what the Buddha meant in saying "Just that whatever > passion & delight is there, that's the clinging there." >> James: Not exactly following you. Sounds a bit like the commentary Larry provided which I completely disagree with. If clinging was "just a part of the five khandas" the Buddha would have said so. Four of the Five Khandas are nama! If clinging was simply nama the Buddha would have said so. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > I am just following the > letter of what the Buddha taught. If that is deluded then the Buddha > was deluded. TG, won't do you answer the question. > > He has > > already answered in detail about Dependent Arising. > > James: How could he answer in detail about dependent origination when > I didn't ask anything about dependent origination? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ----------- > Howard: > WHAT? James, you had written the following yesterday: > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > Hi Tep (and Howard), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > > > T: Do you, Howard, agree or do not agree with James that Dependent > > Origination gives the true meaning of "person" (or "being" as you > > wish) that nama & rupa cannot? > > Thank you so much for zeroing in on what I am trying to say! I > thought that maybe I wasn't making myself clear enough. Unfortunately > I see that Howard doesn't want to answer this question. He is being > very stubborn. Pity. > > Metta, > James > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > And earlier yesterday you had written the following: > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > Hi Howard and Nina, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > There were discussions on metta, and I do not want to continue long > > with this thread. Tomorrow I go out. > > I find it very realistic to see a person as cittas and cetasikas, and > > as rupas. > > ----------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > So do I -- as an ever-changing, collection of interrelated > namas and > > rupas acting in concert; a dynamic collection of material and > mental phenomena. > > I can't imagine what else a person would be. > > As I wrote before, "person" cannot be defined as simply the five > khandas (nama and rupa) but as a process detailed in dependent > origination. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - > > It is because of these posts that I wrote you back about dependent > origination. I didn't write about that out of the blue, but in response to your > points. James: Howard, I didn't ask for you to define dependent origination. I stated that a person could be defined in terms of dependent origination, not simply nama/rupa. Your posts on dependent origination were your own choosing and you will notice that I didn't respond because I didn't have anything to say- they didn't deal specifically with the subject being discussed. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --- > > > > > > > > Nama and Rupa can in no way be properly understood outside the > context of > > Dependent Arising and vice versa. So to try to separate them as > approaches to > > understanding ... is non-sense. > > James: I am not trying to separate them. I am just not combining them > like Howard is doing. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --- > Howard: > Huh? What is it I'm allegedly doing? Combining what? I'm not combining > namas with rupas - they are different, and I'm not combining namas & rupas on > the one hand with dependent origination on the other. Dependent origination > is a complex of conditionality relations holding among namas and rupas, mainly > namas. Where am I "combining" anything? I don't even get what you mean by > the "combining". James: What I mean is when you say that dependent origination can be defined as: nama/rupa or the five khandas. The Buddha taught these two aspects different and separately, and for good reason I believe. Metta, James #82833 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------ > N: I was not so happy with the word defining. James: Well, when people say that "people don't exist" we have to do some defining of what exactly is a "person". I don't see anyway around that. Metta, James #82834 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:38 am Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Question: What are, in you opinion, the speculative views > about 'ultimate reality', and why? I ask this question because I am > interested to know your thought about these views. Do not answer this > question if you don't feel comfortable for any reason. But if you > have time and patience (more than Howard and Han Tun have) then > please do answer it for me. I shall be glad if you do. James: This would take some time. I will put it on the back burner and get to it when time allows. > > >James: Additionally, the label "ultimate reality" is a misnomer. > There is only one reality. How we understand that reality is what > makes the difference. > > T: We differ on that. I understand that the term 'ultimate reality' > (paramatthadhamma) is about realities(dhammas, phenomenon) in the > highest sense : i.e. dhammas (including the ariya saccas) that are > penetrated by direct knowledges of the ariyas. James: I have no problem with that definition. However, when "the highest sense" becomes the only sense to the extent that people no longer exist, then I have a problem with that. After all, it is "ultimate reality" not "highest reality". If you can wait till > I complete my study of the seven Abhidhamma books (about one year > from today), I 'll be glad to discuss this subject matter with you > again. > > Regards, > > Tep Metta, James #82835 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] new members dhammanusara Hi Bill, - Thank you very much for the nice story that was the basis for the cute nickname. > Bill : > About 15 years ago, when my daughter was in early elementary school, she played on a soccer league. During one of the games, it began to rain quite hard. Since there was no lightning, the coach allowed the game to continue and all the bystander-parents scrambled to their cars for whatever rain gear they might have. All I had -- by chance-- was an old, old camouflaged army poncho that I kept in the trunk for emergencies. So while the other parents were able to come up with $300 tailored gore-tex raincoats, I ended up on the sidelines looking like a bedraggled POW from the Korean War. My daughter thought it was funny, and later that day, as we happened to be setting up an email account for me, she coined the name: armyponcho_dot_dad. > > Since then I've thought about changing it many times, but that -- of course--is impossible. How could a person ever give back such a gift? > > :) > T: It shows that you are a great daddy who is very gentle and loves his daughter very much. Regards, Tep === #82836 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:50 am Subject: Re: People are like Tornadoes .. Speculative Views on the Abhidhamma?... dhammanusara Hi James, - I appreciate the clarification that makes sense. > >James: Additionally, the label "ultimate reality" is a misnomer. > There is only one reality. How we understand that reality is what > makes the difference. > > T: We differ on that. I understand that the term 'ultimate reality' > (paramatthadhamma) is about realities(dhammas, phenomenon) in the > highest sense : i.e. dhammas (including the ariya saccas) that are > penetrated by direct knowledges of the ariyas. James: I have no problem with that definition. However, when "the highest sense" becomes the only sense to the extent that people no longer exist, then I have a problem with that. After all, it is "ultimate reality" not "highest reality". T: Now I agree 100% with that explanation. Like I told Jon in another recent post -- that view on "ultimate reality" is only one side of the coin. Ultimate reality seen by ariyas is right view, but such a view in a puthujjana is an ignorance. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > Question: What are, in you opinion, the speculative views > > about 'ultimate reality', and why? #82837 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 2. nilovg Hi James, Op 17-feb-2008, om 15:34 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > James: Well, when people say that "people don't exist" we have to do > some defining of what exactly is a "person". I don't see anyway > around that. ------- N: Now the thread becomes too complicated, everyone having his say. I have to go back to what you originally said and that takes time. I am not inclined to long debates. I find what Jon said clear: Nina. #82838 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: two and three beautiful roots. nilovg Hi James and Tep, Op 16-feb-2008, om 6:05 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Tep: What do you understand the footnote means? I think it says: > > understanding does not occur with a citta that does not have non- > > delusion as a root cause, even when there are non-greed and non-hate > > as root causes. > > James: Agreed. > > But I don't know what it says about the case "without > > root cause". ------- Original post of James: However, it [understanding] is not always to be found where perception and consciousness are. But when it is, it is not disconnected from those states. And because it cannot be taken as disconnected thus "This is perception, this is consciousness, this is understanding', its difference is consequently subtle and hard to see." Vism. XIV, 6 James: Here is the exact footnote: > > 'In arisings of consciousness with two root-causes [i.e with non- greed and non-hate but without non-delusion], or without root cause, understanding does not occur' (Pm 432). ------ N: The context is the simile of the money changer. Perception (sa~n~naa), citta and understanding, each of them 'know' but they know in different ways. Pa~n~naa, understanding is the highest way of knowing. Non-greed and non-hate are two beautiful roots, hetus, arising with each wholesome citta. Pa~n~naa is the third beautiful root, but this does not arise with each wholesome citta. It may or may not. You may have metta because it is your nature, but there may not necessarily be understanding with the citta. Or, at the moment of mettaa there may be understanding that realizes (without having to think) that metta is kusala kamma that brings a happy result. The roots are the foundation of the citta they accompany. They are like the roots of a tree that provide sap to it. They condition the citta by way of root-condition, by being their root. There are also three akusala roots which are the opposites of the beautiful ones: lobha, dosa and moha, delusion. In a process of cittas there are kusala cittas and akusala cittas and these always have roots. There are also other moments without roots: ahetuka, rootless cittas. These are never accompanied by understanding. Nina. #82839 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 2/17/2008 9:32:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, I was running out the door to attend the Lantern Festival when I wrote to TG so it was rather rushed. I didn't spend a lot of time to give every detail and just paraphrased. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and TG) - > > In a message dated 2/16/2008 11:52:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > Hi TG, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@ wrote: > > > > > Hi Howard, James, Tep > > > > > > Since the question seems to be trying to trap Howard into responding > or > > dealing with a deluded premise, I think he is wise not to deal with it. > > James: I beg your pardon! I have provided a quote where the Buddha > explained that clinging cannot be seen as the same as the aggregates > and yet not different than them either. Howard's response was that he > didn't understand what the Buddha meant. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's not a very precise formulation of my response, James. I said that > I wasn't SURE, but I did propose an understanding. What I said exactly was > the following: > << I don't know for sure what the Buddha meant in saying "clinging is > neither the same thing as the five clinging-aggregates, nor is it separate from the > five clinging-aggregates." Possibly he meant that the clinging is not the > five heaps (and of course it is not), and it also isn't separate from them, > because it is included in sankharakkhandha. It is part of that aggregate, is it > not? That may be exactly what the Buddha meant in saying "Just that whatever > passion & delight is there, that's the clinging there." >> James: Not exactly following you. Sounds a bit like the commentary Larry provided which I completely disagree with. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I noticed the similarity. The commentary almost agrees with me - so the commentaries can't be all bad! LOLOL! ------------------------------------------------- If clinging was "just a part of the five khandas" the Buddha would have said so. Four of the Five Khandas are nama! If clinging was simply nama the Buddha would have said so. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I absolutely don't get what you are talking about! What else is upadana other than a mental operation/function? I really don't get it! Tanha hardens into upadana. Clinging isn't rupa, and it isn't nibbana, and it isn't imagined. So, what's left except nama? Nyanatiloka, referencing Buddhaghosa, gives the following: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ upÄ?dÄ?na: 'clinging', according to Vis.M. XVII, is an intensified degree of craving (taṇhÄ?, q.v.). The 4 kinds of clinging are: sensuous clinging (kÄ?mupÄ? dÄ?na), clinging to views (diá¹¹?dÄ?na), clinging to mere rules and ritual (sÄ«labbatupÄ?dÄ?na), clinging to the personaljty-belief (atta-vÄ?dupÄ?dÄ?na). - - - - - - - - - There is also the following sutta which to my mind certainly presents clinging as a mental operation: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ SN 22.121 Upadana Sutta Clinging Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: S iii 167 CDB i 970 ____________________________________ Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. ____________________________________ Copyright © 1997 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1997 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. ____________________________________ At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you clingable phenomena & clinging. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "And what, monks, are clingable phenomena? What is clinging? "Form is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire-passion related to it, is clinging related to it. "Feeling is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire-passion related to it, is clinging related to it. "Perception is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire-passion related to it, is clinging related to it. "Fabrications are clingable phenomena. Any desire-passion related to them, is clinging related to them. "Consciousness is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire-passion related to it, is clinging related to it. "These are called clingable phenomena. This is clinging." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > I am just following the > letter of what the Buddha taught. If that is deluded then the Buddha > was deluded. TG, won't do you answer the question. > > He has > > already answered in detail about Dependent Arising. > > James: How could he answer in detail about dependent origination when > I didn't ask anything about dependent origination? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ----------- > Howard: > WHAT? James, you had written the following yesterday: > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > Hi Tep (and Howard), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > > > T: Do you, Howard, agree or do not agree with James that Dependent > > Origination gives the true meaning of "person" (or "being" as you > > wish) that nama & rupa cannot? > > Thank you so much for zeroing in on what I am trying to say! I > thought that maybe I wasn't making myself clear enough. Unfortunately > I see that Howard doesn't want to answer this question. He is being > very stubborn. Pity. > > Metta, > James > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > And earlier yesterday you had written the following: > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > Hi Howard and Nina, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > There were discussions on metta, and I do not want to continue long > > with this thread. Tomorrow I go out. > > I find it very realistic to see a person as cittas and cetasikas, and > > as rupas. > > ----------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > So do I -- as an ever-changing, collection of interrelated > namas and > > rupas acting in concert; a dynamic collection of material and > mental phenomena. > > I can't imagine what else a person would be. > > As I wrote before, "person" cannot be defined as simply the five > khandas (nama and rupa) but as a process detailed in dependent > origination. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - > > It is because of these posts that I wrote you back about dependent > origination. I didn't write about that out of the blue, but in response to your > points. James: Howard, I didn't ask for you to define dependent origination. I stated that a person could be defined in terms of dependent origination, not simply nama/rupa. Your posts on dependent origination were your own choosing and you will notice that I didn't respond because I didn't have anything to say- they didn't deal specifically with the subject being discussed. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, James. I'll just drop this. -------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --- > > > > > > > > Nama and Rupa can in no way be properly understood outside the > context of > > Dependent Arising and vice versa. So to try to separate them as > approaches to > > understanding ... is non-sense. > > James: I am not trying to separate them. I am just not combining them > like Howard is doing. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > --- > Howard: > Huh? What is it I'm allegedly doing? Combining what? I'm not combining > namas with rupas - they are different, and I'm not combining namas & rupas on > the one hand with dependent origination on the other. Dependent origination > is a complex of conditionality relations holding among namas and rupas, mainly > namas. Where am I "combining" anything? I don't even get what you mean by > the "combining". James: What I mean is when you say that dependent origination can be defined as: nama/rupa or the five khandas. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I NEVER said that! I never gave such a definition. It is manifestly incorrect. Are you dreaming? Dependent origination consists of conditionality relations *among* namas & rupas. Dependent origination is a matter of relationship and conditionality. Dependent origination is NOT (I repeat, NOT) the five khandhas. ---------------------------------------------------------- The Buddha taught these two aspects different and separately, and for good reason I believe. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: James, how can we have a meaningful conversation when you address words that never issued forth from my mouth? Again, James - I do NOT identify D.O. with khandhas, namas, rupas, or any such things, I never have, and I have never given any *indication* that I do. I haven't a clue where this came from, James, but it is not my perspective in the slightest. In fact, I can't imagine how it could reasonably be anyone's perspective. I hope that is clear enough. ---------------------------------------------------- =============================== With metta, Howard #82840 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:45 am Subject: Re: two and three beautiful roots. dhammanusara Dear Nina (& James), - I appreciate your Abhidhamma knowledge and kind help. > Tep: But I don't know what it says about the case "without root cause". ------- N: There are also other moments without roots: ahetuka, rootless cittas. These are never accompanied by understanding. ........ T: I also thank you for pointing out that understanding may/may not arise with each wholesome citta : N: Pa~n~naa is the third beautiful root, but this does not arise with each wholesome citta. It may or may not. You may have metta because it is your nature, but there may not necessarily be understanding with the citta. ........ Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James and Tep, (snipped) > There are also three akusala roots which are the opposites of the > beautiful ones: lobha, dosa and moha, delusion. > In a process of cittas there are kusala cittas and akusala cittas and > these always have roots. There are also other moments without roots: > ahetuka, rootless cittas. These are never accompanied by understanding. > Nina. #82841 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: mettaa. the present moment ... Are We Real ? .. TGrand458@... Hi Jon In a message dated 2/17/2008 5:16:05 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: To my reading of the texts, elements are "bedrock" already. Why else would they be considered as "elements"? ........................................................ NEW TG: To view any phenomena as "bedrock" is a problem IMO. This views them as being too substantial. I think the Buddha would view them as "coreless." He compares them to the core of a plantian tree....as being coreless. Quite a difference between "bedrock" and "coreless" as to the sensibilities they intail. This is exactly my objection with the focus on the terms realities, ultimate realities with their own characteristics, etc. It leads to a far over-substantialist view of phenomena which, IMO, will highly thwart the minds ability to detach from them. ............................................................ Are > Focusing on the elements, aggregates to uproot the idea of "person" is > useful. Deeper insight focuses on the conditionality of elements, aggregates, to > realize that these things are also empty, hollow, and not worth adhering to. > To linger on them as "realities" is counterproductive. The development of insight is not a matter of "focussing on" (or "lingering on") elements/dhammas or anything. It's a matter of things being seen as they truly are (which, according to the Buddha's explanation, is as elements/dhammas that are anicca, dukkha and anatta). The conditionality of elements cannot be seen until the panna that sees elements for what they truly are has been developed (but not by "focussing"!"f ........................................................... Hummm I would consider mindfulness and concentration both types of "focusing." Your objection to the term is puzzling to me. If seeing the elements as "they truly are" is seeing them as impermanent, afflicting, and nonself; then I agree with you. TG OUT #82842 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:35 am Subject: Why So "Mean" upasaka_howard Hi, all - I've been testier than usual recently, and I'd like to explain why. There was a period of a month or two during which we had really serious, but ultimately unfounded, concerns about my wife's health. It turns out that she's fine, but until we knew that we were under very great tension. This evidently took it's toll on us. Last week we were visited for 5 days by my older son's family from the Dallas, Texas area. It was great, but while they were here we picked up our younger granddaughter's cold, no doubt due to our emotionally engendered vulnerability, and I have reacted to this upper respiratory infection with a very bad siege of asthma that seems unrelenting. Kammic payback, no doubt! ;-)) The foregoing is not a justification for my recent testiness, of course, but it is an explanation, and, in any case, I apologize for not being more "laid back" in my recent posting. I'll try to do better. With metta, Howard #82843 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: two and three beautiful roots. nilovg Hi Tep, Op 17-feb-2008, om 17:45 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > appreciate your Abhidhamma knowledge and kind help. ----- N: You must do an enormous amount of reading, reading all seven books of the Abhidhamma. This is not a joke? How do you manage that? Especially the Patthana, this is endlessly long. Nina. #82844 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why So "Mean" nilovg Hi Howard, Op 17-feb-2008, om 19:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I've been testier than usual recently, and I'd like to explain why. > There was a period of a month or two during which we had really > serious, but > ultimately unfounded, concerns about my wife's health. It turns out > that she's > fine, but until we knew that we were under very great tension. ------- N: I am sorry to hear about your worries, but good that Rita is O.K. I hope your asthma will get better soon. I did not notice that you were so testy, not more than usual ;-)) But no kidding, your mails were very good and helpful. All the best, Nina. #82845 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 238 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 16-feb-2008, om 16:49 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Then let's call it kamma process. I still have a problem with kamma > result being the > principle condition for kamma process. It seems to give an enormous > power to bodily > feeling, that being the only source of pleasant and unpleasant > resultant feeling. ------- N: I do not get what you find so difficult. I do not read into the D.O. that kamma result being the principle condition for kamma process. Note that upekkhaa feeling accompanying seeing etc. that is kusala vipaaka (and desirable as stated by the tiika) or akusala vipaaka (and undesirable) is counted too as sukkha or dukkha. Not just bodily feeling. Nina. #82846 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:35 am Subject: Re: Why So "Mean" christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > I've been testier than usual recently, and I'd like to explain why. > Dear Howard, I thought you knew :-) ... Friends are there during testing times, and not just happy periods - and, more to the point ~ are still there afterwards. Just as you have been for us, through good times and bad. metta and thanks, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #82847 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why So "Mean" upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/17/2008 2:19:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 17-feb-2008, om 19:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I've been testier than usual recently, and I'd like to explain why. > There was a period of a month or two during which we had really > serious, but > ultimately unfounded, concerns about my wife's health. It turns out > that she's > fine, but until we knew that we were under very great tension. ------- N: I am sorry to hear about your worries, but good that Rita is O.K. I hope your asthma will get better soon. I did not notice that you were so testy, not more than usual ;-)) --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! (I was to my good friends Tep & James.) --------------------------------------------------------- But no kidding, your mails were very good and helpful. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I hope so. ------------------------------------------------------- All the best, Nina. ======================== With metta, Howard #82848 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why So "Mean" upasaka_howard Thanks, Chris. You're very sweet - as always. With metta, Howard #82849 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:53 am Subject: Re: Why So "Mean" dhammanusara Dear Howard, - I know why the title of your message is: Why So "Meam". ;-) Please do not feel bad about yourself, Howard. It is easy for mindfulness to slip in anyone when the mind is under great tension due to a worry or fear. >Howard: >The foregoing is not a justification for my recent testiness, of course, but it is an explanation, and, in any case, I apologize for not being more "laid back" in my recent posting. I'll try to do better. T: It was a very justifiable explanation that you did not have to give, but you did it out of sincerity and courage. Thanks. One of your friends & admirers, Tep === #82850 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: two and three beautiful roots. dhammanusara Hi Nina, - I am glad you asked; it shows your kind heart. > ----- > N: You must do an enormous amount of reading, reading all seven books > of the Abhidhamma. This is not a joke? How do you manage that? > Especially the Patthana, this is endlessly long. > Nina. > T: Well, you were right, but I wasn't kidding. My plan was to go through the Abhidhamma Pitaka at the Thai Website 84000.org in skipping- and-skimming fashion during the first reading. If I do it 3 hours per day, five days a week for 52 weeks, I think it should cover the 6 books and a part of the Patthana. Does this plan make sense now? Tep === #82851 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why So "Mean"/Tep and James upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and James, at the end) - In a message dated 2/17/2008 2:53:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Howard, - I know why the title of your message is: Why So "Mean". ;-) Please do not feel bad about yourself, Howard. It is easy for mindfulness to slip in anyone when the mind is under great tension due to a worry or fear. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. Yes, I'm afraid that it is. ------------------------------------------- >Howard: >The foregoing is not a justification for my recent testiness, of course, but it is an explanation, and, in any case, I apologize for not being more "laid back" in my recent posting. I'll try to do better. T: It was a very justifiable explanation that you did not have to give, but you did it out of sincerity and courage. Thanks. One of your friends & admirers, ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Likewise, Tep. I appreciate your friendship, James' friendship, and that of all my good friends here on DSG. --------------------------------------------- Tep ========================== With metta, Howard P. S. James, please, there is no need for you also to write. I know that we are each a good friend of the other and that we wish each other well. One problem with a post such as I just wrote is that it elicits (even seems to *solicit*) responses, and that isn't my intention at all. I just wanted to explain, so that you all would understand, especially you and Tep. #82852 From: "colette" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] That's easy for you to say. ksheri3 Hi Larry, The humor is well taken and appreciated. Thanks. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Cinderella, er Colette, > > C: "SUNYATA: it either IS or IT IS NOT." > > Larry: Okay, go with that! > > Larry > #82853 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:17 pm Subject: For Howard/RE: blaa blaa blaa reverendagga... Hi Howard! what was being made fun of was NOT the Buddha Dhamma charteristic (OOPS!) "feature" of impermanence but how some highly intellectual type people will seem to reconize it as the only worthy facet of the many faceted gem of the Buddha Dhamma,reducing the Dhamma to some form of subjectively relative philosophy.Thanks for the Pali Canon reading material though.All that you were kind enough to reference after two postings certainly puts it into better perspective than that short little Mahayana Diamond sutta quote of yours! Sorry if i offended you, but after all... its all just a phantom and a dream,a bubble and a flash... or was that a flashed bubble? A bubbled flash was it? May the Buddhas,Deva,and Angels bless all of you! bhikkhu/reverend aggacitto #82854 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism Ch XIX- Purification by Overcoming Doubt- Intro lbidd2 Hi Nina, I didn't entirely follow your argument regarding why one cannot give examples of prompted kusala citta. I can give some. If I ask, "Is there seeing now?" and you look and see that there is seeing then that recognition of seeing is mindfulness prompted by another. If I ask, "Is that seeing self?" and you look and truly understand that that seeing is not self, then that understanding is insight prompted by another. Similarly, if one asks oneself these questions and truly comes to these conclusions, not just repeating what one has read, then that is kusala citta prompted by oneself. Larry #82855 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:03 pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > I NEVER said that! I never gave such a definition. It is manifestly > incorrect. Are you dreaming? Dependent origination consists of conditionality > relations *among* namas & rupas. Dependent origination is a matter of > relationship and conditionality. Dependent origination is NOT (I repeat, NOT) the five > khandhas. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > The Buddha taught these > two aspects different and separately, and for good reason I believe. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > James, how can we have a meaningful conversation when you address words > that never issued forth from my mouth? Again, James - I do NOT identify D.O. > with khandhas, namas, rupas, or any such things, I never have, and I have > never given any *indication* that I do. I haven't a clue where this came from, > James, but it is not my perspective in the slightest. In fact, I can't imagine > how it could reasonably be anyone's perspective. I hope that is clear enough. James: Good lord, Howard, calm down! This is just a friendly discussion. I am not trying to misrepresent you. This issue is very subtle and complex so, in most cases, I may not understand what you are trying to say. Tep very specifically formulated the question I am trying to get at: is a "person" best defined as the five aggregates or as the process of dependent origination? However, you refused to answer this question saying that you have already given enough explanation. Well, if I don't see that and Tep doesn't see that, whose fault is it? Metta, James #82856 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 238 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "I do not get what you find so difficult. I do not read into the D.O. that kamma result being the principle condition for kamma process. Note that upekkhaa feeling accompanying seeing etc. that is kusala vipaaka (and desirable as stated by the tiika) or akusala vipaaka (and undesirable) is counted too as sukkha or dukkha. Not just bodily feeling." Larry: So the pleasant feeling you experience when hearing good music is actually neutral feeling? If neutral feeling can be experienced as pleasant feeling why not just say pleasant or unpleasant feeling can arise with 5-door consciousness? I would have no problem with that. Larry #82857 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:35 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,239-241 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII [(ix) Clinging] 239. As regards the clause 'With craving as condition, clinging': Four clingings need to be explained (1) As to analysis of meaning, (2) As to brief and full account Of states, (3) and also as to order. 240. Herein, this is the explanation: firstly, there are these four kinds of clinging here, namely, sense-desire clinging, [false-] view clinging, rite-and-ritual clinging, and self-doctrine clinging. 241.1. The 'analysis of meaning' is this: it clings to the kind of sense-desire called sense-desire's physical object (see Ch. IV, note 24), thus it is sense-desire clinging. Also, it is sense-desire and it is clinging, thus it is sense-desire clinging. Clinging (upaadaana) is firm grasping; for here the prefix 'upa' has the sense of firmness, as in 'upaayaasa' (great misery--see par. 48) and 'upaku.t.tha' (great pox),41 and so on. Likewise, it is [false] view, thus it is [false-] view clinging; or, it clings to [false] view, thus it is [false-] view clinging; for in [the case of the false view] 'The world and self are eternal' (D.i,14), etc., it is the latter kind of view that clings to the former. Likewise, it clings to rite and ritual, thus it is rite-and-ritual clinging; also, it is rite and ritual and it is clinging, thus it is rite-and-ritual clinging; also, it is rite and ritual and it is clinging, thus it is rite-ad-ritual clinging; for ox asceticism, ox vows, etc., (see M.i,387f.) are themselves kinds of clinging, too, because of the misinterpretation (insistence) that purification comes about in this way. Likewise, they indoctrinate by means of that, thus it is doctrine; they cling by means of that, thus that is clinging. What do they indoctrinate with? What do they cling to? Self. The clinging to doctrines of self is self-doctrine clinging. Or by means of that they cling to a self that is a mere doctrine of self; thus that is self-doctrine clinging. This, firstly, is the 'analysis of meaning'. ------------------------- Note 41. Upaku.t.tha--'great pox' or 'great leprosy': not in P.T.S. Dict.; see ku.t.tha. ********************** 239. ta.nhaapaccayaaupaadaanapadavitthaarakathaa ta.nhaapaccayaa upaadaanapade -- upaadaanaani cattaari, taani atthavibhaagato. dhammasa"nkhepavitthaaraa, kamato ca vibhaavaye.. 240. tatraaya.m vibhaavanaa -- kaamupaadaana.m, di.t.thupaadaana.m, siilabbatupaadaana.m, attavaadupaadaananti imaani taavettha cattaari upaadaanaani. 241.tesa.m aya.m atthavibhaago -- vatthusa"nkhaata.m kaama.m upaadiyatiiti kaamupaadaana.m, kaamo ca so upaadaana~ncaatipi kaamupaadaana.m. upaadaananti da.lhaggaha.na.m. da.lhattho hettha upasaddo upaayaasaupaka.t.thaadiisu viya. tathaa di.t.thi ca saa upaadaana~ncaati di.t.thupaadaana.m. di.t.thi.m upaadiyatiiti vaa di.t.thupaadaana.m. ``sassato attaa ca loko caa''tiaadiisu (dii0 ni0 1.31) hi purimadi.t.thi.m uttaradi.t.thi upaadiyati. tathaa siilabbata.m upaadiyatiiti siilabbatupaadaana.m. siilabbata~nca ta.m upaadaana~ncaatipi siilabbatupaadaana.m. gosiilagovataadiini hi ``eva.m suddhii´´ti abhinivesato sayameva upaadaanaani. tathaa vadanti etenaati vaado. upaadiyanti etenaati upaadaana.m. ki.m vadanti, upaadiyanti vaa? attaana.m. attano vaadupaadaana.m attavaadupaadaana.m. attavaadamattameva vaa attaati upaadiyanti etenaati attavaadupaadaana.m. aya.m taava tesa.m atthavibhaago. #82858 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] For Howard/RE: blaa blaa blaa upasaka_howard Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 2/17/2008 7:17:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, reverendaggacitto@... writes: Hi Howard! what was being made fun of was NOT the Buddha Dhamma charteristic (OOPS!) "feature" of impermanence but how some highly intellectual type people will seem to reconize it as the only worthy facet of the many faceted gem of the Buddha Dhamma,reducing the Dhamma to some form of subjectively relative philosophy. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think there's WAY more to the Dhamma than impermanence, and the phenomenological aspects, while important, aren't central. I do think that the tilakkhana are central, though, to Dhammic wisdom, especially anatta, and I regard meditation and guarding the senses as central to Dhamma practice. I suppose we are in agreement on that practice aspect, in any case. ------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for the Pali Canon reading material though.All that you were kind enough to reference after two postings certainly puts it into better perspective than that short little Mahayana Diamond sutta quote of yours! -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I should hope so! Signature lines are always concise. --------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry if i offended you --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ , but after all... its all just a phantom and a dream,a bubble and a flash... or was that a flashed bubble? A bubbled flash was it? ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! Read it over a few times from the bottom of my post, Bhante, and I'm sure you'll get it right. And, yes, it is that way: fleeting, insubstantial, without own-being, and hurtful when grasped at. And when we reach a certain point, we'll see that more clearly. ------------------------------------------------------------ May the Buddhas,Deva,and Angels bless all of you! bhikkhu/reverend aggacitto ============================= With metta, Howard #82859 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 2/17/2008 8:03:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > I NEVER said that! I never gave such a definition. It is manifestly > incorrect. Are you dreaming? Dependent origination consists of conditionality > relations *among* namas & rupas. Dependent origination is a matter of > relationship and conditionality. Dependent origination is NOT (I repeat, NOT) the five > khandhas. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > The Buddha taught these > two aspects different and separately, and for good reason I believe. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > James, how can we have a meaningful conversation when you address words > that never issued forth from my mouth? Again, James - I do NOT identify D.O. > with khandhas, namas, rupas, or any such things, I never have, and I have > never given any *indication* that I do. I haven't a clue where this came from, > James, but it is not my perspective in the slightest. In fact, I can't imagine > how it could reasonably be anyone's perspective. I hope that is clear enough. James: Good lord, Howard, calm down! This is just a friendly discussion. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, you're right. I certainly should. I'm just feeling really lousy! ---------------------------------------------------- I am not trying to misrepresent you. This issue is very subtle and complex so, in most cases, I may not understand what you are trying to say. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm really sorry I'm not communicating well. I've been trying really hard, and I'm not sure I can improve my presentation. (Seriously.) ------------------------------------------------ Tep very specifically formulated the question I am trying to get at: is a "person" best defined as the five aggregates or as the process of dependent origination? However, you refused to answer this question saying that you have already given enough explanation. Well, if I don't see that and Tep doesn't see that, whose fault is it? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: A person is certainly not just the five aggregates. The five aggregates is a mere 5-bag group of mere collections of similar phenomena. That mere aggregate definition improperly ignore relations, and that is an essential error. Each khandha is a mere aggregate (i.e.. a collection), not an aggregation, but a person is an aggregation of khandhic phenomena, arising and ceasing *interrelatedly*, with the primary relations being those that go under the name "dependent origination". A person is namarupic stream of kammically engendered and interrelated phenomena, a stream continually propelled by ignorance and kamma according to the cycle of dependent origination. A stream we call a person is certainly a process, it consists of nama and rupas, and it is integrated and propelled by dependent origination. So, to answer your question, a person is most certainly a process of dependent origination, and that process is a flow of namas and rupas. I must say both, because both are so. --------------------------------------------------------- Metta, James ============================ With metta, Howard #82860 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:11 pm Subject: Re: Why So "Mean" buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > I've been testier than usual recently, and I'd like to explain why. > There was a period of a month or two during which we had really serious, but > ultimately unfounded, concerns about my wife's health. Oh, okay, so this explains. I just posted to you before reading this. Sorry, I wouldn't have said anything had I known. Hope things start getting better for you and your wife. Metta, James #82861 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Why So "Mean" upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 2/17/2008 9:12:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > I've been testier than usual recently, and I'd like to explain why. > There was a period of a month or two during which we had really serious, but > ultimately unfounded, concerns about my wife's health. Oh, okay, so this explains. I just posted to you before reading this. Sorry, I wouldn't have said anything had I known. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: No problem at all! BTW, I don't know whether you saw my reply to Tep - I included a couple lines to you in it also. ------------------------------------------------------ Hope things start getting better for you and your wife. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thanks. She's not too bad - a lot of sneezing and a little coughing. But I get asthma with bacterial URI's, and it's pretty bad this time. Just for spite, my doctor's off tomorrow (President's Day), so I can't call up for any prescription. I'll probably get better on my own, though. ----------------------------------------------- Metta, James ======================== With metta, Howard #82862 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination/Brief, to James buddhatrue Hi Howard, Howard: Yes, you're right. I certainly should. I'm just feeling really lousy! James: That's okay; perfectly understandable. I appreciate that you genuinely express your feelings- even when they are grumpy feelings. In that way, I know where I stand with you as opposed to someone who is always "polite" but could be mean-spirited at heart. Howard: No problem at all! BTW, I don't know whether you saw my reply to Tep - I included a couple lines to you in it also. James: I didn't see it until later. I am at work and there is something wrong with the Internet so I couldn't view all the messages at once. I had to go through each message one at a time. I understand you not wanting me to respond because of clogging up the list with messages; but, alas, it was too late. ;-) Howard: A person is certainly not just the five aggregates. The five aggregates is a mere 5-bag group of mere collections of similar phenomena. That mere aggregate definition improperly ignore relations, and that is an essential error. James: Okay, we are in complete agreement! What I wanted to stress is to say that a person is "just nama and rupa" or just the five aggregates completely ignores the process which is a person. The Buddha taught DO for a reason and the five aggregates for a reason, and they each serve a different function. So, to my way of thinking, to say "there is no person, just nama and rupa" is to completely ignore DO and completely false. So, Howard, get some rest. That's a wrap! ;-)) Metta, James #82863 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:33 am Subject: The practice - active or passive? E-card from Bangkok 2 sarahprocter... Dear All, More lively discussions with A.Sujin. Ven P. raised more of his good questions about practice and understanding present realities without a self to 'do' anything. Other friends from the other day were present again. Some of the topics were: Seeing & Visible object. When v.o. is appearing, there is no attention to other objects. It's not a question of the realities being any different as understanding develops. Crossing a busy road in Bangkok is not a 'problem' for the development of sati. Nothing to be done by self! Sanna at each moment, conditioned dhammas. Is meditation with lobha or wholesome chanda? Nimitta - what is seen is nimitta. The succession of cittas is there as nimitta. Degrees of illusion according to degrees of panna whilst not yet understanding the arising and falling away. Illusion in between moments of panna. Self is there, not yet eradicated. It doesn't matter that it's nimitta as long as the characteristic of a dhamma appears. Like this moment - 6 doorways. Yoniso manasikara, wise attention - anything to do? Taking self out of realities, wrong to take any realities for 'I'. Satipatthana Sutta - active reality? What is it?.No need to mention satipatthana - thinking. If citta now does not fallen away, there will never be another citta. Metta - benefits, for whom? Metta for others. Metta with or without karuna. Understanding its characteristic, the feeling of friendliness, not a label. Adosa, as opposite of dosa. Any expectations now? Develop understanding, no expectations. Cannot say 'when' at all. Concerns that it sounds very passive! Patimokkha - passive or active? Sila - active? Patimokkha and right understanding. Without right understanding, can anyone follow the Patimokkha perfectly? Respect for the Vinaya? Without understanding, useless to just observe sila, like following 8 precepts for a heavenly rebirth. All Patimokkha rules must be done with kusala. Purpose of observing Patimokkha. One knows how much kilesa one has so one observes Patimokkha, really seeing the danger of accumulating kilesa or does one just observe for results? One can see the benefit of developing as much understanding and kusala as possible. Decline of the sasana through non-observance, through lack of right understanding. Precepts as non-harming. Deeds and actions conditioned by akusala, depends on the degree of harming others. The difference is in the cittas and cetasikas which are dangerous to different degrees because of cetana. visuddhis x7 - all referring to the development of understanding. Sila of the lay person vs Patimokkha. Sila visuddhi with the development of satipatthana prior to the attainment of insights. Hindrances - akusala as hindrances, i.e when there are no conditions. Bahiya Sutta - in the seen, just the seen. Anything to be done? If there is no understanding of the reality now, can there be any understanding from one doorway to the next? Avijja - when is there avijja? That which cannot understand is avijja. Dhammas develop, not anybody at all. Excuses for dosa, such as one's health, the situation or others' health. No excuses! Otherwise it's just one's own thought, not the understanding. There's only citta there. Right understanding anytime. Reality right now, otherwise lost in the story, even when we take it as sympathy for the other. A story about a phone call that led to various results and akusala vipaka. Maybe better not to have made the call? Just thinking about the past, cannot know the past citta. Jhana as hindrance to satipatthana? Anapanasati, samadhi- needs panna to see and do so kusala can develop. Before the time of the Buddha, lots of samatha. Without understanding, cannot know whether it is samatha. the degree is stronger and stronger up to 1st jhana. Samatha & Vipassana - active? passive? With satipatthana - no need to wait! Arupa brahma. No understanding of no self, so what's the use of being reborn in arupa brahma realm> No understanding of realities, even though so very calm. 10 paribodhis(?) - desire to have power by having jhana, no understanding - given as the hindrance to satipatthana, even though wholesome intention to develop iddhi. ****** I'm rather tired (and a little rushed), so excuse the very cryptic commments. Perhaps others will add some of their personal impressions or any topics of interest sometime....??? Metta, Sarah ========== #82864 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:37 am Subject: Rejoicing Joy ;-) ! bhikkhu0 Friends: Unselfish Joy: How to rejoice in others Success: By seeing that: If only happy at one's own success, such Joy is rare & limited! If happy also at other's success, the Joy is more frequent & even infinite! By observing that: It starts with basic sympathy, develops into acceptance, approval & appreciation, culminates in rejoicing mutual Joy by directing mind to, initiation, frequent cultivation & boundless expansion of Mutual Joy.. <...> Buddha: If it were impossible to cultivate this Good, I would not tell you to do so! Buddhaghosa: See how this good being is very Happy! How fine! How excellent! How sweet! Let there be Happiness. Let there be open Freedom. Let there be Peace. Let there be Bliss from this. Let there be Understanding of this. Moreover: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Mutual_Joy.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Infinitely_Joyous_Consciousness.htm Mudita: The Buddha's Teaching on Unselfish Joy: BPS Wheel Publication No. 170 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel170.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #82865 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The practice - active or passive? E-card from Bangkok 2 nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you for your notes, they give a good impression of useful Dhamma discussions. Op 18-feb-2008, om 13:33 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > It doesn't matter that it's > nimitta as long as the characteristic of a dhamma appears. > > Like this moment - 6 doorways. ------- N: I like this note. There was a discussion whether one is aware of concepts, since nimitta is a concept. The word concept has many meanings, and here it stands for reality. And this is as I understood: just being aware of characteristics of the dhammas that appear one at a time. No matter nimittas are expeerienecd, the sankhaara nimittas, not just nimitta in the sense of outward appearance, shape and form. Nina. #82866 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:04 am Subject: Alone with Dhamma, Ch 4, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin reminded us: “The Buddha explained what is kusala and what akusala, but can he force anyone? He could show the way leading to the end of defilements. Someone may like to have sati, but who can have it if there are no conditions for it? One may want the dhammas that arise to be different, but instead of such clinging there should be detachment. One may try very hard to make sati arise, but if there is no understanding of it as a conditioned reality that arises and falls away it is useless. And on the other hand, when there are conditions for sati nobody can prevent its arising. This shows us that there is no need to try to have sati. The entire Tipiìaka explains the nature of anattå of realities. The arising of direct awareness and understanding depends on the right conditions and they cannot arise even if one is told a hundred times.” When we were in India we had many opportunities to rejoice in other people’s kusala, their generosity and readiness to help others. Jonothan performed kusala all day long, without interruption, in recording the Dhamma discussions. He applied a great deal of effort to hold the microphone close to Acharn Sujin. When Lodewijk said that he was distracted by this, I said to him that Jonathan develops all the perfections while doing this. He performs dåna, he gives the great gift of Dhamma. He performs síla while helping many people by bodily acts, while holding the microphone so that people all over the world can hear our dhamma discussions. He develops renunciation since he renounces his own comfort while he has little time for relaxation. He develops wisdom while listening with understanding, and asking questions that are useful to all. He applies energy since he is not inert to perform wholesome deeds. He has patience and endurance which is needed day after day in order to continue to perform kusala. He develops truthfulness to perform the kusala he has determined to do: acting according to what he has promised he would do. He has determination to perform kusala and continue with it. He has mettå because he thinks of many people's benefit and welfare. He has equanimity because even when he is tired he continues with equanimity in all circumstances. This shows that all the perfections can be developed together, at the same time. We do not have to think about the perfections; they are developed while we perform kusala through body, speech and mind without thinking of our own gain or profit. Jonothan and Sarah are always working hard to edit all the recordings of Dhamma discussions just for our benefit. They even listened to them and edited them during our long bus drives. At the beginning of this pilgrimage Lodewijk stated categorically that this would be his last trip to India. At the end of the trip, however, on the houseboat in Srinagar, he said just as categorically that he would definitely go on the next pilgrimage. Why? The holy places, the discussions and the recollection of the Buddha had inspired him to go back to India in order better to be able to understand the Truth, wherever we go and live. And so it should be for all of us. (the end) ******* Nina. #82867 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:02 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 47 16. Mahaanipaato Conclusion Sammukhaaparammukhaabhedato duvidhaa. Yaa hi satthudharamaanakaale ariyaaya jaatiyaa jaataa mahaapajaapatigotami-aadayo, taa sammukhaasaavikaa naama. Yaa pana bhagavato khandhaparinibbaanato pacchaa adhigatavisesaa, taa satipi satthudhammasariirassa paccakkhabhaave satthusariirassa apaccakkhabhaavato parammukhaasaavikaa naama. They are of two sorts (1) through being divided into [those who came] face-to-face and [those who did not] not [come] face-to-face [with the Buddha]. For those who were born of a noble birth at the time the teacher was living, such as Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii, they are called face-to-face disciples. But for those who attained distinction after the time of the final quenching of the aggregates of the Blessed One, even though the "body" of the Doctrine [appeared] before their eyes, they are called disciples who were not face-to-face. Tathaa ubhatobhaagavimuttipa~n~naavimuttitaavasena. Idha paa.liyaagataa pana ubhatobhaagavimuttaayeva. Likewise, [they are of two sorts] (2) through freedom in both ways because there was freedom through wisdom. But here, it is handed down in the canon that they were certainly freed in both ways. Tathaa saapadaananaapadaanabhedato. Yaasa~nhi purimesu sammaasambuddhesu paccekabuddhesu saavakabuddhesu vaa pu~n~nakiriyaavasena kataadhikaarataasa"nkhaata.m atthi apadaana.m, taa saapadaanaa. Yaasa.m ta.m natthi, taa naapadaanaa. Similarly, [they are of two sorts] (3) through being divided into those having Apadaana [verses] and not having Apadaana [verses]. There are Apadaana [verses] for one who performed meritorious deeds for former Fully and Perfectly Awakened Ones, Pacceka Buddhas, or disciple awakened ones, which is called doing the prerequisite work. She has Apadaana [verses] of her own. But one who did not, she has no Apadaana [verses] of her own. Tathaa satthuladdhuupasampadaa sa"nghato laddhuupasampadaati duvidhaa. Garudhammapa.tiggaha.namhi laddhuupasampadaa mahaapajaapatigotamii satthusantikaava laddhuupasampadattaa satthuladdhuupasampadaa naama. Sesaa sabbaapi sa"nghato laddhuupasampadaa. Similarly, they of two sorts (4) as having received full ordination from the Teacher and as having received full ordination from the Order. Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii received the full ordination from the Teacher through the acceptance of the [eight] important rules, and because she received the full ordination in that way, she is called one who received the full ordination from the Teacher. All the others received the full ordination from the Order. Taapi ekato-upasampannaa ubhato-upasampannaati duvidhaa. Tattha yaa taa mahaapajaapatigotamiyaa saddhi.m nikkhantaa pa~ncasataa saakiyaaniyo, taa ekato-upasampannaa bhikkhusa"nghato eva laddhuupasampadattaa mahaapajaapatigotami.m .thapetvaa. Itaraa ubhato-upasampannaa ubhatosa"nghe upasampadattaa. They are also of two sorts (5) through a single ordination or through a double ordination. In regard to that, aside from Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii, those 500 Sakyan women who departed [from household life] together with Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii received the full ordination through a single ordination from the Order of Bhikkhus, the other had full ordination by both Orders through the double ordination. .. to be continued, connie #82868 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:25 am Subject: Vism.XVII,239-241 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.683- As to the clause "Conditioned by craving, grasping comes to pass," There are four graspings which should be explained By sense-classification, order due, And by the brief and full accounts of states. [569] This is the explanation: - these are the four graspings, namely, of sense-desires, of wrong views, of mere right and ritual, of a theory of the self. And this is the literal meaning: It clings to sense-desires which are termed the physical basis - thus "grasping of sense-desires." Sense-desires and grasping give the grasping of sense-desires. Grasping means a firm seizure. For the prefix upa (in upaadaana, grasping) denotes firmness as in upaayaasa (despair), upaka.t.tha (approaching), and so on. Similarly, views and grasping give the grasping of views. Or, it clings to views - thus "grasping of views." In such views as, the self is eternal, the world is eternal, the latter view clings to the former. Similarly it clings to mere rite and ritual - thus "grasping of rite and ritual." The rite and ritual and the grasping give the grasping of rite and ritual. Graspings themselves are so because they hold that bovine habits and bovine practices and so on are "purity." Similarly, by it they speak, thus "theory." By it they grasp - thus "grasping." What do they speak or grasp? the self. The clinging to a theory {read attano vaaduupaadaana.m} about the self is the grasping of the self-theory. By it they cling to the view that just this self-theory is the self. Such is the literal meaning. #82869 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: two and three beautiful roots. nilovg Hi Tep, Op 17-feb-2008, om 21:02 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > My plan was to go > through the Abhidhamma Pitaka at the Thai Website 84000.org in > skipping- > and-skimming fashion during the first reading. If I do it 3 hours per > day, five days a week for 52 weeks, I think it should cover the 6 > books > and a part of the Patthana. Does this plan make sense now? ------- N: Your studiousness is amazing, but in this way it is difficult to really understand what is taught. But while you are doing this you can find out whether it is helpful for you or not. Nina. #82870 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:00 am Subject: Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other upasaka_howard Hi, all - I've been musing - always dangerous! ;-) The consciousness that I have at the moment is not the same as that of two minutes ago, but both seem to be consciousness-instances of "mine" as compared to the consciousness at the moment of, say, Nina, Sarah, Jon, James, Tep, TG, and others, which are certainly *not* "mine". What is that all about? What makes one mind stream sensed as "me." There is a great temptation, atta-based, to look for explanation in some alleged "soul" or lasting core-element that is "me." It is very important to resist that atta-based temptation. I would like to raise the question of what is the anatta-based explanation. It is important to look for such and to see it as clearly as possible. Very likely, this is one of those things that people fear looking at too closely, but that is all the more reason to do so! I believe I have an anatta-based explanation that is pretty much on-target. I think the solution lies in three interrelated things: [1] Conditionality (New mind states are conditioned primarily by prior mind states, kamma & vipaka playing a major role here), [2] "Accumulations," and [3] Memory. Comments, anyone? With metta, Howard #82871 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/18/2008 9:01:32 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: I think the solution lies in three interrelated things: [1] Conditionality (New mind states are conditioned primarily by prior mind states, kamma & vipaka playing a major role here), [2] "Accumulations,vipaka playing a major Comments, anyone? ........................................... Hi Howard All the things you mentioned sound right on. These factors, combined with ignorance of the same, along with pleasant, painful, and neutral feelings, produce craving and clinging and the entire "self delusion." It appears as a "self same thing" due to continuity of conditions. TG #82872 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:53 am Subject: Re: The practice - active or passive? E-card from Bangkok 2 glenjohnann Hi Sarah So wonderful to get your e-Cards from Bangkok! Sounds like some very helpful and interesting discussions. Thank you very much for keeping up posted. Please give me regards to one and all. Ann #82873 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/18/2008 11:48:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: In a message dated 2/18/2008 9:01:32 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: I think the solution lies in three interrelated things: [1] Conditionality (New mind states are conditioned primarily by prior mind states, kamma & vipaka playing a major role here), [2] "Accumulations,vipaka playing a major Comments, anyone? ........................................... Hi Howard All the things you mentioned sound right on. -------------------------------------------- Howard: The third being "memory". (Your quoting got switched around & cut off a bit, somehow.) -------------------------------------------- These factors, combined with ignorance of the same, along with pleasant, painful, and neutral feelings, produce craving and clinging and the entire "self delusion." It appears as a "self same thing" due to continuity of conditions. TG ======================== With metta, Howard #82874 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:58 am Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok - Concerns, interests, accumulations ...... dhammanusara Hi Sarah (Nina, James, Howard, Dieter, and others), - I always like to read your e-report cards. Often, they lead to useful discussions (although most of the questions are old and have been answered several times). I have a few questions & thoughts for your kind consideration. >Sarah: K.Sujin stressed that there has to be an understanding of seeing,visible object and other paramattha dhammas . No self to make anything happen. In response to concerns about whether there's anything that "I can do", she said that of course there is nothing "I can do" because there is no self! T: Is the 'self' that she denies existence of the same as "soul" or a metaphysical entity as in MN 2, or is it both physical and mental body (attapa.tilabha) as stated in DN 9, or is it the self identification as in MN 44? DN 9 (Potthapada Sutta) : "There are these three kinds of acquisition of self (atta-patilaabha): gross, constituted of mind, and immaterial... The first has materiality and consists of the four great entities (elements of earth, water, fire, and air), and consumes physical food; the second is constituted by mind with all the limbs and lacking no faculty; the third consists of perception..." MN 2 (Sabbasava Sutta): "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. MN 44 (Culavedalla Sutta): "There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging- aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One." ............................... >S: On right effort, who can have effort at will? T: I think one can have effort through a wise attention to dangers of akusala dhammas, and subsequently makes a strong effort ("he arouses ardor") to abandon them as explained by Maha Kassapa in SN 16.2. Maha Kassapa: And how is a person ardent? There is the case where a monk thinks, 'The arising of unarisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he arouses ardor. 'The non- abandoning of arisen evil, unskillful qualities....The non-arising of unarisen skillful qualities....The ceasing of arisen skillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he arouses ardor. This is what it means to be ardent. [SN 16.2 in Kassapa-samyutta] T: There is another sutta, AN 10.51, that makes it clear in black-and- white how effort may arise at will following a skillful examination of the mind. Notice the phrase "put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, and alertness" and "make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree". So it is necessary to think and "do something", otherwise skillful qualities(kusala dhammas) will never arise. "And how is a monk skilled in reading his own mind? ... If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of ill will, overcome by sloth and drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated,' then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, and alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities, just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, and alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head.... But if, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain uncovetous, without thoughts of ill will...and concentrated,' then his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the effluents. [AN 10.51 : Sacitta Sutta] ................................................ >S: At the moment of thinking, there is effort already at that moment of thinking of making an effort. It's not necessary to think, to do. T: I wonder if the "effort already at that moment of thinking of making an effort" is qualified as the right effort, the magga factor (samma vayamo), that can abanadon akusala dhammas. ................................................ Thank you for the effort to take notes of the meeting. Tep === #82875 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/18/2008 9:55:37 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: The third being "memory". (Your quoting got switched around & cut off a bit, somehow.) ......................................... Yea, that is weird. My system seems to be getting more and more corrupt. Pretty soon people won't know what I'm saying...well, that won't be much of a change. LOL TG #82876 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 2/18/2008 12:57:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Howard: The third being "memory". (Your quoting got switched around & cut off a bit, somehow.) ......................................... Yea, that is weird. My system seems to be getting more and more corrupt. Pretty soon people won't know what I'm saying...well, that won't be much of a change. LOL ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, hey - why should you be any different from me? LOLOL! ====================== With metta, Howard #82877 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other dhammanusara Hi Howard and TG ( + other DSG friends), - I also understand that consciousness (mano, vinnana, citta) is a domain property (or characteristic) of each person/being. Yet, consciousness operates according to the dhamma theory of the Abhidhamma, and by that it is viewed as 'dhatu' which has no ownership. In a way, it may be compared to the water molecules that can be found in any living being as well as in the "liquid water" that can be found in the universe at large. The ability to recollect past lives must have something to do with the fact that lives (sequence of births & deaths) of each indiviual are sequentially connected through streams of consciousness of each becoming. >Howard: I would like to raise the question of what is the anatta- based explanation. It is important to look for such and to see it as clearly as possible. T: You may find a good explanation about anataa and attaa in the following great article written by ~Nanamoli Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel202.html#thera vada >Howard: I believe I have an anatta-based explanation that is pretty much on-target. I think the solution lies in three interrelated things: [1] Conditionality (New mind states are conditioned primarily by prior mind states,kamma & vipaka playing a major role here), [2] "Accumulations," and [3] Memory. Comments, anyone? T: I concur with TG that the three "things" above may be summarized by one word : continuity. In my opinion the viewing of consciousness-instances (or "stream of consciousness", if you will) as "mine" is conditioned by clinging (upadana) to the five-aggregate burden that the individual is carrying at the present moment. The individual is the current state of the continuity (here & now). Because of upadana as supporting condition, attanuditthi and mana spring up to cause the wrong view : This is mine; this is my self; this is what I am. Tep === #82878 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: two and three beautiful roots. nilovg Hi Tep, Op 17-feb-2008, om 21:02 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > My plan was to go > through the Abhidhamma Pitaka ------- N:I thought of something. Perhaps you can send us a line or two of things that struck you in the Abhidhamma, now and then. Good for discussion. Nina. #82879 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other nilovg Hi Howard, Op 18-feb-2008, om 17:00 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I believe I have an anatta-based explanation that is pretty much > on-target. I think the solution lies in three interrelated things: [1] > Conditionality (New mind states are conditioned primarily by prior > mind states, kamma & > vipaka playing a major role here), [2] "Accumulations," and [3] > Memory. > Comments, anyone? ------ N: no 2 falls under conditions: natural decisive support-condition. Anatta-based: does it have to be? There is likely to be atta- sa~n~naa, wrong remembrance, taking the stream of cittas for mine. Also this atta-sa~n~naa has been accumulated, it is conditioned. Since whatever we think about is conditioned, there is no place for an owner or self. Nina. #82880 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: two and three beautiful roots. dhammanusara Dear Nina, - Very nice of you to care. > > Tep: > > My plan was to go > > through the Abhidhamma Pitaka > ------- > N:I thought of something. Perhaps you can send us a line or two of > things that struck you in the Abhidhamma, now and then. Good for > discussion. .............. That is a wonderful proposed idea, Nina. Reading a lot of difficult stuff is not efficient learning (in terms of output divided by input), since the mind tends to forget. It is like an old Thai saying : learning the new (stuff), forgetting the old. So, the best way to gain retention is by reading, writing down, pondering and discussing. Yes, I 'll do that. Thanks. Your friend, Tep === #82881 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism Ch XIX- prompted. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 18-feb-2008, om 1:56 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I didn't entirely follow your argument regarding why one cannot give > examples of prompted kusala citta. I can give some. If I ask, "Is > there > seeing now?" and you look and see that there is seeing then that > recognition of seeing is mindfulness prompted by another. ----------- N: The examples you give are in conventional sense. You use the word prompted in conventional, general sense. But in order to understand prompted and unprompted we have to study the Co and subco. It is more complex. That is why I gave all these quotes. We have to consider the quality of kusala citta or akusala citta at a particular moment. Is it strong or weak? When someone else says look, and you look, it does not tell us anything about the citta, kusala or akusala? It describes more a situation, not a citta. Nina. #82882 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 238 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 18-feb-2008, om 2:12 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Note that upekkhaa feeling accompanying seeing etc. that is kusala > vipaaka (and desirable as stated by the tiika) or akusala vipaaka (and > undesirable) is counted too as sukkha or dukkha. Not just bodily > feeling." > Larry: So the pleasant feeling you experience when hearing good > music is > actually neutral feeling? If neutral feeling can be experienced as > pleasant feeling why not just say pleasant or unpleasant feeling can > arise with 5-door consciousness? I would have no problem with that. ------- N: At the moment of vipaakacitta, of hearing, the feeling is upekkhaa. But the object that is experienced may be desirable or undesirable. No 'you' who has to find out all this, the cittas take their course because of conditions, this is very important! The links of the D.O, take their own course, whether we like it or not. The text stated that craving can be classified as six by way of the objects experienced through the six doors. It is bound up with desirable and undesirable objects. We read : Vis. 236: Out of selfish affection for feeling after taking pleasure in it when it arises through a visible datum as object, etc., these beings accord much honour to painters, musicians, perfumers, cooks, weavers, distillers of elixirs, physicians, etc., who furnish respectively visible data as object, etc., just as out of affection for a child they reward the child's nurse after taking pleasure in the child. That is why it should be understood that these three kinds of craving have feeling as their condition. ---------------------- N: The Tiika explains that feeling should be considered as the child, and that visible object etc. that are the condition for feeling are like the wetnurse. The six objects such as furnished by the painters etc. are like the wetnurse who provides milk to the child. ------- We have to keep in mind in which way feeling conditions craving. Nina.#82883 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:34 pm Subject: A Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion with Nina dhammanusara Hi Nina (Scott, Han, Sarah and other DSG members), - In message #82878 you wrote: >N:I thought of something. Perhaps you can send us a line or two of things that struck you in the Abhidhamma, now and then. Good for discussion. Nina. ............. Thanks to your kind heart for offering me an Abhidhamma guidance without charging a consulting fee. :-) During my daily study of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (Thai-version), beginning with Book 1 - the Dhammasangani, I will take some notes on certain topics that I need help. Keeping in mind that your time is precious, I will write at most three short messages for discussion each week. The presentation, to start tomorrow, will be in both English (my non-expert translation of the Thai text, which is heavily and mercilessly loaded with unfamiliar Pali words) and the original Thai text for comparison. I'll be glad to hear any idea or suggestion from anyone. Thanks. Tep === #82884 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and TG) - In a message dated 2/18/2008 2:00:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard and TG ( + other DSG friends), - I also understand that consciousness (mano, vinnana, citta) is a domain property (or characteristic) of each person/being. Yet, consciousness operates according to the dhamma theory of the Abhidhamma, and by that it is viewed as 'dhatu' which has no ownership. In a way, it may be compared to the water molecules that can be found in any living being as well as in the "liquid water" that can be found in the universe at large. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. At any moment any knowing is just that ... a knowing. There isn't some "thing" that is doing the knowing. The knowing simply occurs. But it is a particular knowing, and bound up with that knowing via memory and inclination, is a history of knowings that conditioned the current mind state. ------------------------------------------------- The ability to recollect past lives must have something to do with the fact that lives (sequence of births & deaths) of each indiviual are sequentially connected through streams of consciousness of each becoming. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, for sure. The dynamic, historical aspect of this is important. On each occasion, at each moment, there is, of course, only "now", but that "now" is not an isolated "now." It is a zero-point within a streaming flow of "nows." ---------------------------------------------------- >Howard: I would like to raise the question of what is the anatta- based explanation. It is important to look for such and to see it as clearly as possible. T: You may find a good explanation about anataa and attaa in the following great article written by ~Nanamoli Thera. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel202.html#thera vada ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Excellent! I've never seen that article. I've saved the link for going over. ------------------------------------------------------ >Howard: I believe I have an anatta-based explanation that is pretty much on-target. I think the solution lies in three interrelated things: [1] Conditionality (New mind states are conditioned primarily by prior mind states,kamma & vipaka playing a major role here), [2] "Accumulations," and [3] Memory. Comments, anyone? T: I concur with TG that the three "things" above may be summarized by one word : continuity. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, yes, but 'continuity' can imply permanence, which, of course, wouldn't be right. So, maybe better to say "change with continuity." But, you know? I often think that one needs to be careful of summaries, for they, like slogans, sometimes appear to clarify while only closing off further looking. I'm more comfortable with continuing to look and see, and to look again and see again. There is great appeal to wrapping up matters in nice, tight little bundles - as a mathematician I've always been so inclined, but I'm becoming increasingly less so inclined. I tend these days to believe that when we think we've "arrived" at something, it's a good time to vow to keep pushing ahead. ------------------------------------------------------ In my opinion the viewing of consciousness-instances (or "stream of consciousness", if you will) as "mine" is conditioned by clinging (upadana) to the five-aggregate burden that the individual is carrying at the present moment. The individual is the current state of the continuity (here & now). Because of upadana as supporting condition, attanuditthi and mana spring up to cause the wrong view : This is mine; this is my self; this is what I am. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's true. What you speak of here is, I think, full-blown atta-sense and atta-view. But what I'm pointing to is an nunderlying sense that is something more fundamental: the distinguishing of one's experiential stream from others, the subtler sense that is almost always with us - call it perhaps the "proto-atta-sense" - that somehow picks up on the coherence of the namarupic stream of which it is a part. This proto-atta-sense, when not corrupted by ignorance. is actually valid insight, I'd say, for it lets us see what is a fact - the coherence of the namarupic process that enables each person to be heir to his/her own kamma, and not that of someone else. But it is a sense that, due to avijja, gets almost immediately converted to a sense of personal self and then further proliferated (or "papa~ncized") into a full-blown and hardened atta-view. When accompanied by ignorance, which is the norm, it becomes transformed into the curse of our existence. ----------------------------------------------------- Tep ============================ With metta, Howard #82885 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/18/2008 2:27:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 18-feb-2008, om 17:00 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I believe I have an anatta-based explanation that is pretty much > on-target. I think the solution lies in three interrelated things: [1] > Conditionality (New mind states are conditioned primarily by prior > mind states, kamma & > vipaka playing a major role here), [2] "Accumulations," and [3] > Memory. > Comments, anyone? ------ N: no 2 falls under conditions: natural decisive support-condition. Anatta-based: does it have to be? There is likely to be atta- sa~n~naa, wrong remembrance, taking the stream of cittas for mine. Also this atta-sa~n~naa has been accumulated, it is conditioned. Since whatever we think about is conditioned, there is no place for an owner or self. Nina. ============================== The coherence of a namarupic stream is real, being heir to one's own [unavoidable conventional speech here in saying "own"] kamma is real, and distinguishing one namarupic stream from another is valid. The bare realization of these matters is not defilement, but it is the rule that this realization becomes defiled the moment it arises due to the distorting darkness of avijja. You are quite right in saying there is no owner. There is a just a coherence/integrity to the namarupic stream, the realization of which is immediately perverted into a sense of personal self - of me, and of mine. With metta, Howard #82886 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion with Nina upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina) - In a message dated 2/18/2008 4:34:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: During my daily study of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (Thai-version), beginning with Book 1 - the Dhammasangani, I will take some notes on certain topics that I need help. Keeping in mind that your time is precious, I will write at most three short messages for discussion each week. The presentation, to start tomorrow, will be in both English (my non-expert translation of the Thai text, which is heavily and mercilessly loaded with unfamiliar Pali words) and the original Thai text for comparison. I'll be glad to hear any idea or suggestion from anyone. Thanks. ============================== I'm *very* glad you're doing this, Tep. Your English translation is *bound* to be better than that of Rhys Davids! With metta, Howard #82887 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion with Nina dhammanusara Hi Howard, - I am glad that today I have gladdened someone! >Howard: > I'm *very* glad you're doing this, Tep. Your English translation is *bound* to be better than that of Rhys Davids! > T: I did not know that Rhys Davids' translation was that unacceptable to you, Howard. :-) Regards, Tep === #82888 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism Ch XIX- prompted. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "When someone else says look, and you look, it does not tell us anything about the citta, kusala or akusala? It describes more a situation, not a citta." Larry: I believe I said something like looking and correctly identifying an experience. I would classify that correct identification as a prompted wholesome consciousness, i.e., mindfulness. Larry #82889 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 238 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Regarding what kind of feeling conditions craving, I can't tell if you don't understand my point or you simply disagree. I'm guessing a little of both, so let's leave it at that. Larry #82890 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion with Nina upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 2/18/2008 7:00:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard, - I am glad that today I have gladdened someone! >Howard: > I'm *very* glad you're doing this, Tep. Your English translation is *bound* to be better than that of Rhys Davids! > T: I did not know that Rhys Davids' translation was that unacceptable to you, Howard. :-) ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I HOPE that I'm right in blaming the translation! LOLOL! BTW, I'm happy about your doing this, not only for a possibly better translation, but because it will provide spoon-feeding of the Abhidhamma Pitaka to us in baby-size mouthfuls and allowing others to add relevant commentarial and suttic sugar to sweeten each mouthful. ---------------------------------------------------- Regards, Tep ========================= With metta, Howard #82891 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - and Tep, TG, and all: I spoke of a "coherence/integrity to the namarupic stream, the realization of which is immediately perverted into a sense of personal self - of me, and of mine." In an earlier post I referred to this sensing as a "proto-atta-sense" which "when not corrupted by ignorance is actually valid insight ..., for it lets us see what is a fact - the coherence of the namarupic process that enables each person to be heir to his/her own kamma, and not that of someone else." Now, I do think that what I asserted is correct, but a serious warning needs to go with it. For virtually every one of us, every single time, the very moment that sense of coherence arises, it is immediately jumped upon by ignorance and turned into self-view. We are so inclined to grasp at self, that recognition of the namarupic stream as an integrated, seamless process simply cannot remain free of reification for even a moment. So, we must be constantly vigilant, aware of our perpetual, robotic I-making. With metta, Howard #82892 From: han tun Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humour hantun1 Dear Sarah, Nina, Lodewijk, Tep, James, and all Friends, I am back home. I am well and I am not well. I am well, because I think the nasty infection which was trying to destroy my fragile body is now well under control. My last intravenous injection will be on 22 February. I am not well because of my constant “hiccup” since 13 February. Those who have hiccup for more than a few minutes will know the feeling of constant hiccup day in and day out. I cannot speak well. I had to try very hard to make Sarah understand me. I cannot drink well without choking. I cannot eat well. I cannot sleep well. I don’t want to do anything. It drains away all my energy. I don’t know when this scourge will go away. But go away it must! Nothing is impermanent. Isn’t not? Or, I will go away! Thank you all for your kind wishes. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah and Han, > > Op 17-feb-2008, om 14:05 heeft sarah abbott het > volgende geschreven: > > > I just had a long chat with Han who is still in > hospital. > ------ > N: I am so glad he is well. Lodewijk and I talked a > lot about Han and > we were worried. #82893 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion with Nina nilovg Hi Tep, Op 18-feb-2008, om 22:34 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Keeping in mind that your time is > precious, I will write at most three short messages for discussion > each week. The presentation, to start tomorrow, will be in both > English (my non-expert translation of the Thai text, which is heavily > and mercilessly loaded with unfamiliar Pali words) and the original > Thai text for comparison. ------- N: Wonderfull. What is the link, or do you read it on CD? It is amazing that it is all on web. Yahoo will not take the Thai text, my computer does. Nina. #82894 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion with Nina nilovg Hi Howard and Tep, Op 19-feb-2008, om 4:42 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm happy about your doing this, not only for a possibly better > translation, but because it will provide spoon-feeding of the > Abhidhamma Pitaka > to us in baby-size mouthfuls and allowing others to add relevant > commentarial > and suttic sugar to sweeten each mouthful. ------ N: I am all for babyfeeding. We have to relate the Abhidhamma to daily life. Nina. #82895 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:01 am Subject: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi all, I am only presenting two paragraphs today. After spending some time on them I get the impression that I actually know what they mean - more or less. Any questions, please ask. If not I will continue with paragraphs 3, 4 and 5 tomorrow. "CHAPTER XX DESCRIPTION OF PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF WHAT IS THE PATH AND WHAT IS NOT THE PATH 1. The knowledge established by getting to know the path and the not- path thus 'This is the path, this is not the path' is called Purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path.' "2. One who desires to accomplish this should first of all apply himself to the inductive insight called 'Comprehension by Groups.' Why? Because knowledge of what is the path and what is not the path appears in conjunction with the appearance of illumination, etc.: (Ch XX para. 105), in one who has begun insight. For it is after illumination etc., have appeared in one who has already begun insight that there comes to be knowledge of what is the path and what is not the path. And Comprehension by Groups is the beginning of insight. That is why it is set forth next to the Overcoming of Doubt. Besides, knowledge of what is the path and what is not the path arises when Full Understanding as Investigation is occurring, and full understanding as Investigation comes next to Full Understanding as the Known (see Ch. XIX, 21). So this is also the reason why one who desires to accomplish this purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path should first of all apply himself to comprehension by groups." Ken H #82896 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humour nilovg Dear Han, Op 19-feb-2008, om 7:49 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I cannot drink well > without choking. I cannot eat well. I cannot sleep > well. I don’t want to do anything. It drains away all > my energy. -------- N: It is very courageous of you to still read dsg and write. It is your kusala citta. Lodewijk and I, while discussing your situation, realized how close are compassion and aversion or worry about someone else's situation. Kusala citta and akusala citta alternate, but akusala cittas arise more often. Our thoughts go out to you, with our best wishes for a speedy recovery. Nina. #82897 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 238 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 19-feb-2008, om 1:39 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Regarding what kind of feeling conditions craving, I can't tell if you > don't understand my point or you simply disagree. ------- N: I try to keep to the text. In this context vipaaka feelings condition craving. But as mentioned, some teachers say: all kinds of feeling. But those who dwell in the Mahaa-vihaara (Buddhaghosa) say: feeling that is vipaaka. Nina. #82898 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism Ch XIX- prompted. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 19-feb-2008, om 1:33 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I believe I said something like looking and correctly identifying > an experience. I would classify that correct identification as a > prompted wholesome consciousness, i.e., mindfulness. ------- N: it depends on what you mean by mindfulness. Mindfulness of nama or rupa.But this can be prompted or unprompted and this is hard to tell. An example could be: the Buddha says: do not be neglectful, and then one is mindful of a nama or rupa. But I like to be careful with examples. Nina. #82899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other nilovg Hi Howard, Op 19-feb-2008, om 5:39 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > For virtually every one of us, every single time, the > very moment that sense of coherence arises, it is immediately > jumped upon by > ignorance and turned into self-view. We are so inclined to grasp at > self, that > recognition of the namarupic stream as an integrated, seamless > process simply > cannot remain free of reification for even a moment. So, we must be > constantly vigilant, aware of our perpetual, robotic I-making. ------- N: this happens when we are thinking of a namarupic stream. But thinking can be realized as a conditioned dhamma. Sati of satipatthana is not thinking, it is aware of a nama or rupa, of their charactreistics as they appear one at a time, so that they can be understood as conditioned dhammas. This is the remedy. Nina. #82900 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Dear Ken H, thank you very much. This chapter is very long. I think Survey can help us here. I add some remarks. Op 19-feb-2008, om 9:01 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > "CHAPTER XX > > DESCRIPTION OF PURIFICATION BY > KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF WHAT IS THE PATH AND WHAT IS NOT THE PATH > > 1. The knowledge established by getting to know the path and the not- > path thus 'This is the path, this is not the path' is called > Purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is > not the path.' > > "2. One who desires to accomplish this should first of all apply > himself to the inductive insight called 'Comprehension by Groups.' > ------- N: This is sammasana ~naa.na. One begins to see the arising and falling away, but not yet of each separate nama and rupa as it arises and falls away. That will be realized at the following stage of insight. Inductive insight: we have to be careful. I would like to know the Pali for inductive. Insight is not thinking, though there is still thinking in between. We read that he 'should first of all apply himself to the inductive insight called Comprehension by Groups '. This seems like: first do this, then that. But In reality this is not so. It is all a matter of the development of pa~n~naa. How could one tell pa~n~naa what to do. If one through listening has more understanding of anattaa, there will not be misunderstandings about the Path. ------- > Text: Why? Because knowledge of what is the path and what is not > the path > appears in conjunction with the appearance of illumination, etc.: (Ch > XX para. 105), in one who has begun insight. For it is after > illumination etc., have appeared in one who has already begun insight > that there comes to be knowledge of what is the path and what is not > the path. ------- N: These are the defilements of vipassana. One clings to the calm and greater assurance due to insight. If there is no pa~n~naa that sees through such defilements, one will get stuck. ---------- > And Comprehension by Groups is the beginning of insight. > That is why it is set forth next to the Overcoming of Doubt. > Besides, knowledge of what is the path and what is not the path > arises when Full Understanding as Investigation is occurring, and > full understanding as Investigation comes next to Full Understanding > as the Known (see Ch. XIX, 21). ------ N: Full Understanding as the Known: these are the first two stages of tender insight, knowing the distinction between the characteristics of nama and of rupa and knowing them as conditioned dhammas. Full Understanding as Investigation, tiirana pari~n~naa, begins with Comprehension by Groups and extends to the first mahaa-vipassana: the realization of the arising and falling away of naama and ruupa. ------- > Text:So this is also the reason why one > who desires to accomplish this purification by knowledge and vision > of what is the path and what is not the path should first of all > apply himself to comprehension by groups." ------ N: Details will be explained but when we read the text it seems like theory or thinking, but we should remember that it is not theory. All these sections deal with insight, and insight is to be applied to this moment when a characteristic of nama or rupa appears. Nina. #82901 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humour scottduncan2 Dear Han, Regarding: H: "...I don't know when this scourge will go away. But go away it must! Nothing is impermanent. Isn't not? Or, I will go away!" Scott: I hope you can be well, Han. I'm thinking of you and of the hiccups. I guess both will go away in the end, won't they, but I hope its the hiccups first! Sincerely, Scott. #82902 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:20 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I hope you are enjoying your sessions. Thanks for: S: "...There is vitakka (and vicara) arising with almost every citta. What we take for 'thinking' involves many cittas, cetasikas and mind-door processes. There is none of this conventional thinking at moments of jhana cittas. The condition for the growth of samma sankappa is the growth of right understanding." What is it that creates the sense of wholeness and continuity in the experience of thinking? Sincerely, Scott. #82903 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humou upasaka_howard Dear Han - ================================= Han, I don't know "where in the hell(!)" I've been! Consumed with our own difficulties, I guess! (So typical of self-involved human beings.) I'm sorry to say that, somehow (amazingly, to me!), I've been entirely oblivious to your ordeal. I am so sorry for that. I'm happy to hear that the apparently most serious part of your difficulty, requiring hospitalization, is over, but I'm very sorry for this hiccupping ordeal. It must be extremely trying. Is it a gastrointestinal problem that causes it? Are you seeing a gastroenterologist or other doctor for it? With metta, Howard #82904 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion with Nina dhammanusara Hi Nina (and others), - > >Tep: The presentation, to start tomorrow, will be in both > > English (my non-expert translation of the Thai text, which is > > heavily and mercilessly loaded with unfamiliar Pali words) > > and the original Thai text for comparison. > ------- > N: Wonderfull. What is the link, or do you read it on CD? It is > amazing that it is all on web. > Yahoo will not take the Thai text, my computer does. T: It is a new Thai Web site that is the most advanced of all Tipitaka online version I have seen ! Here is the link: http://www.84000.org/ I am glad your computer can read the Thai script. For other members it is easy to set the IE browser's command view- encoding to Unicode(UTF-8). But it may not work for old versions of Windows and IE browser. Tep === #82905 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humour hantun1 Dear Scott, Scott: I hope you can be well, Han. I'm thinking of you and of the hiccups. I guess both will go away in the end, won't they, but I hope its the hiccups first! Sincerely, Scott. Han: Thank you very much, Scott for your kind wishes. I think I will be O.K. Respectfully, Han #82906 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Distinguishing Mind Streams: The Mystery of Self and Other upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/19/2008 3:43:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 19-feb-2008, om 5:39 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > For virtually every one of us, every single time, the > very moment that sense of coherence arises, it is immediately > jumped upon by > ignorance and turned into self-view. We are so inclined to grasp at > self, that > recognition of the namarupic stream as an integrated, seamless > process simply > cannot remain free of reification for even a moment. So, we must be > constantly vigilant, aware of our perpetual, robotic I-making. ------- N: this happens when we are thinking of a namarupic stream. But thinking can be realized as a conditioned dhamma. Sati of satipatthana is not thinking, it is aware of a nama or rupa, of their charactreistics as they appear one at a time, so that they can be understood as conditioned dhammas. This is the remedy. Nina. ================================= I agree that it is our thinking that gets us into the most trouble. Of course, not all thinking is harmful. Right thinking is a pointer in the right direction. As for "the remedy," I consider the whole of the Buddhadhama and dhamma practice to constitute that. Each one of us is conscious of nothing that is not an aspect of the stream of experience we sometimes call "me" and sometimes call "the world". The Buddha said somewhere that it is within this very fathom-long body with its mentality that lies the world. The rupas and namas that are the elements of "the world" form an integrated complex play of conditions that constitute the whole of our experience and experiencing and are all that we directly know. Within this world-of-experience of ours we do see patterns that make it clear to us by inference that there are other streams of mental and physical phenomena that interact with "our own" stream of experience, but we know these only as they are projected into and reflected in our own experiential stream. Ultimately, there is no way around the fact that there is, for each of us, just our experience. And, as worldlings, that experience is limited, filtered, and blocked by blinders. It is upon that experience as a whole, and upon selected parts of it, that we superimpose a sense of personal self, of substantial self-existence, and of separate "things" that brings us to grief. But there is a wider reality that goes beyond the single realm of "me". It is one which goes beyond all limits and constraints, beyond all conditions, and is indescribable, but, I do believe, realizable. Ignorance imposes on us a picture that is personal, constrained, and fragmented, but reality, knowable - I believe, is impersonal, free and open, and seamless. With metta, Howard #82907 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:45 am Subject: Quiet, Solitude, Seclusion Now? E-card from Bangkok 3 sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, Today was the day you (Han) had planned to join us for the morning at our hotel and the Foundation for discussions. May you rest well (pls don't try to do anything), gather strength and join us in April! May you share any small merit that's made as I try to recall the topics of discussion. ******** K.Sujin was quietly and intently reading the Patisambhidamagga when Jon and I arrived. When she has some quiet time, she enjoys such reading and reflection. 'Never enough!' she said. Azita arrived and started to think about how she should perhaps read more....immediately KS came back to understanding realities, to seeing and visible object and so on..... During the day, others joined for all or part of the morning and afternoon discussions. Ven P. and Shakti had left yesterday and Jill on Monday. Otherwise, pretty much the same group. Saengchan, a former colleague of Jon's joined the morning session and asked some of the questions at the end of it. Sukin & Pinna (as well as Azita) joining in the detailed point-discussions. Always back to this moment.... More on akusala and no shame of different degrees. Asking someone for something, such as a pen, kusala or akusala? Any consideration or kindness? If it's akusala , no shame, the opposite of hiri- detachemnt from akusala. Hiri (shame) - very,very little , not firm enough. Develops with more understanding. Some reflection on Vinaya rules in this regard, such as not asking for anything, discussion related to dhamma and so on - helpful for lay people too to consider. Maha Saccaka sutta, viveka, bodily and mental seclusion (as recently discussed here by me). Jhana x2 - lakkhanupanijjhana, arammanupanijjhana, the Atth. reference. All the references to solitude and seclusion are to mental states, no physical quiet or seclusion. Is it quiet now? is there solitude (seclusion from sense attachments) now? Depends on the context whether referring just to jhana, to jhana and vipassana or just vipassana. Vitakka - when doesn't it arise? Vitakka as the foot which keeps walking. Silabbata paramasa and wrong view, after understanding of realities has started developing, after attainment of some of vipassana nanas. Attachment is the wrong path. Upakilesa & silabbata (Qu. for Ken H or anyone.....which upakilesa refer to silabbata, this is a genuine qu, might be helpful for a follow-up qu tomorrow or Sat). Silabbata with and without wrong view at that moment, conditioned by wrong view because the idea of self has not been eradicated.....very subtle...sharpened panna sees 'I' as latent tendency. Right effort, Scott's question on padhaanaayaa in #81391. Another word for viriya. If they listened to the Buddha'swords with right attention, back to the reality now. Cannot say the Bodhisatta's effort was right or wrong...Earlier on the 'arouse energy' part, understand right and wrong effort. Samvegga, the passing away of a wife may or may not condition anything wholesome...all conditioned. The 8 samvegga-vatthu....for whom? RobM's #78857and '"Abhidhamma scholars (including Khun Sujin)"'- their comments on what makes something 'strong'. All news to KS - cannot say.....can be a condition from aeons ago.....far more complex...accumulations. Howard's qu on patience as viriya and why 2 paramis? Different aspects. Viriya now as we study dhamma and khanti as viriya for Han enduring unpleasant objects. Self view, meditation , seeing and v.o.,thinking and aware of self view, getting rid of the idea of self, attachment to the idea of self, concept of self, seeing the advantages of right understanding. The wise have to find dukkha. 3 kinds of dukkha - all included in 'real' dukkha, sankhara dukkha, but who can get it? (I think as I wrote before to Howard & TG)) Metta, Sarah ========== #82908 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:48 am Subject: Re: Han in good humour dhammanusara Dear Han, - I am very glad that the nasty infection gave up and either left your fragile body or got killed by the injection. And I believe that this killing is not against your first precept. ;-) I am not glad that the annoying hiccup is soo..o stubborn; indeed, I am sad to know that you cannot eat, speak, or sleep and have lost energy and enthusiasm to live. Please rest a lot, and do not reply to this email (or any other) if it adds to the discomfort you already have. May this kamma vipaka rapidly go away ! Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Nina, Lodewijk, Tep, James, and all > Friends, > > I am back home. > I am well and > I am not well. > > #82909 From: "Bill Saint-Onge" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:49 am Subject: A question... armyponcho_d... I'm most of the way through Nyanaponika Thera's "Abhidhamma Studies...A Buddhist Psychology" and was curious what thoughts people had on how it fits into and is viewed in the context of abhidhamma studies as a whole. Bill #82910 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:57 am Subject: Dhamma riddles! E-card from Bangkok 4 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Lunch-time at Khun Douangduen's house next door - tasty food, relaxing in the warmth, de-frosting from Hong Kong. Lots and lots and lots of chat about the relics in Bodh Gaya and the caskets K.Sujin and many other friends had recently donated and taken there for the relics to be placed in during a ceremony. Sariputta's and MM's relics had been kept at the V & A museum in London for most of this century and the Buddha's relic had been donated recently from Sri Lanka. ********************** Afternoon discussion topics K.Sujin was having lots of fun giving us one 'dhamma riddle' after another! Here's one example: Right livelihood -for life and living. Let's say you take certain food for your health, but you don't like it. Is this right or wrong livelihood? Why? What's the opposite? Find out for yourself (and tell us the answers)! She asks a lot of questions and doesn't always give the answers because she really would like us to consider and understand the realities for ourselves, rather than just hearing a 'book' answer. Lots of light laughter and fun too. Sappaya (suitability). There's the general meaning, no panna at all involved. Knowing what's suitable for good health, for example. Eating for what? Sappaya with right understanding. When it's panna, it knows. With right understanding, consider what is sappaya for panna - sound arising and falling away, thinking, everything conditioned to arise - sappaya for panna to know. Breath (the topic brought up by KS!) Rob K arrived in the deep end of it! Breath as reality. heat etc conditioned by citta, more subtle than any other tangible objects and different from what we take for breath. Attachment. Anapanasati today? Samatha is kusala. Why think about breath? How people from around the world understand breath, kusala and akusala. Learning about it from the book....they emphasise concentration: no understanding. Forget about samatha and vipassana, but not about right understanding Through to the bone...what's inside the bone? It has to be understood, absorbed that well. Thai expression?? Trying to develop calm....kusala chanda? Enemy of calm - lobha! Always my kusala, my akusala, my understanding Saccayana, thinking about dhammas as opposed to understanding of dhammas Realities near, but panna far away. When there's avijja, there's no panna. Is visible object not enough? Storehouse, kamma, accumulations, pakatupanissaya, habits......forces as quality of paccaya. Accumulations from past conditions....never mind the name. Conventional calm, conventional restlessness. Any sati at such times? Slipping in? (and OUT! thx NinaW.) Sukin, Rob K, Azita, Jon - I'm sure your impressions would be very different. Anything of special interest to add? ***** Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you Nina, Ann, Tep, Scotts for the feedback, good questions and kind appreciation. I'll get back to it all, but because of various time and computer restraints here, it'll almost cetainly be on return. I'm making notes of the message numbers. The same applies to other threads. ======= #82911 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A question... nilovg Dear Bill, I have it in hard cover. I find this book a good intro, it explains many points very well. Do you have questions? Nina. Op 19-feb-2008, om 14:49 heeft Bill Saint-Onge het volgende geschreven: > I'm most of the way through Nyanaponika Thera's "Abhidhamma > Studies...A Buddhist Psychology" and was curious what thoughts people > had on how it fits into and is viewed in the context of abhidhamma > studies as a whole. #82912 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:14 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Perseverance in Dhamma Perseverance in Dhamma. Chapter 1. Respect to the Buddha The venerable Bhikkhu asked Acharn Sujin: “Where can I find a statue of the Buddha in the Foundation building so that I can pay respect to the Buddha. I went around looking everywhere for a statue, but I could not find it. In every temple all over the world one can see Buddha statues, and people attach great importance to them.” Acharn Sujin answered: ”It may happen that people who attach importance to a Buddha statue are inclined to believe that the Buddha will protect them when they pay respect. They may be attached to ceremonies. But, the understanding of the teachings is what is most important in our life. The Buddha gave us his teachings so that we can develop understanding of all phenomena of our life and eradicate defilements completely. We actually pay respect to the Buddha at any time we understand the teachings. In the Foundation there is no a statue, but relics of the Buddha are being kept here. An image of the Buddha or his relics can remind us of his excellent qualities, of his wisdom, his purity and his compassion.” The venerable Bhikkhu asked whether one can be sure about the relic being a genuine relic of the Buddha. Acharn Sujin answered that this does not matter. We may wonder about it and speculate about it, but what really matters is the kusala citta that pays respect to the Buddha. We can pay respect with understanding of his teachings and this will condition great confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. The venerable Bhikkhu remarked that in this world there is only a very small group of people who value the benefit of developing right understanding of the Buddha’s teachings. Acharn Sujin answered that people are inclined to follow tradition, but that it takes courage being a real buddhist. The Buddha showed the Path leading to the realization of the arising and falling away of conditioned realities. We need perseverance to continue developing this Path. The venerable Bhikkhu showed us a book with texts he used for the performance of ceremonies that were requested by people who visited his temple. He said that people are greatly attached to rituals and that they liked to hear recitations of the Pali texts, even though they did not understand the meaning of the texts. He recited for us the first sentence of the “Måtikå”, the Summary of the Dhammasangani, the first Book of the Abhidhamma: “kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyåkata dhamma”. Our whole life is contained in these words. Avyåkata, indeterminate, are all dhammas not included in kusala dhamma or akusala dhamma. It comprises: vipåkacitta (citta that is result of kamma) and the accompanying cetasikas (mental factors), kiriyacitta (inoperative citta) and the accompanying cetasikas, rúpa (physical phenomena) and nibbåna. The simplicity of this text is very impressive, and it is so deep. When we are sick, all kinds of rúpas and vipåkacittas are arising and falling away and these are included in avyåkata dhamma. Hardness or heat may impinge on the bodysense and then painful feeling may arise. Then our reactions to what we experience are included in kusala dhamma or akusala dhamma. We are worried about the sickness of others, we have many problems in life regarding our work or our relationship with others. We are absorbed in concepts and on account of these, moments of happiness and misery alternate. When it is time to depart from this life all these stories will be forgotten. Where is "our important personality"? There are only dhammas just lasting for a moment and then gone. They are only kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyåkata dhamma. This can comfort us in times of sickness and misery. As Acharn Sujin often says: “Most important in life is understanding reality. Otherwise all phenomema of life are still ‘I’, and the cycle of birth and death will continue.” ****** Nina. #82913 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humou hantun1 Dear Howard, > Howard: Han, I don't know "where in the hell(!)" I've been! Consumed with our own difficulties, I guess! (So typical of self-involved human beings. I'm sorry to say that, somehow (amazingly, to me!), I've been entirely oblivious to your ordeal. I am so sorry for that.I'm happy to hear that the apparently most serious part of your difficulty, requiring hospitalization, is over, but I'm very sorry for this hiccupping ordeal. It must be extremely trying. Is it a gastrointestinal problem that causes it? Are you seeing a gastroenterologist or other doctor for it? With metta, Howard ------------------ Han: It was my own fault that nobody knew I was hospitalized. Even I did not know that I would be hospitalized on 13 February. On 12th morning I had slight burning sensation in urination. Nothing serious, I thought. I took some Penicillin. Afternoon, I did not feel better or worse. So I changed to another antibiotic. Soon after that, I had very intense un-controllable shivering with teeth clattering, and with fever (like I had malaria during WWII). My family members did not know. They thought I was sleeping. At about 5 p.m. when they knew, they asked me to go to hospital immediately. You may not believe me, I had an intense aversion to hospitals, let alone to be hospitalized. So, to gain time, I told them to see for just one night, and if not improved, I would go the next day. Came the Next Day and improve it did not! What a hard luck! So I said I would go with their promise that they would not force me to admit to hospital. There I went meekly, hoping the good, benevolent doctor would just give me some medicines and let me go home. But alas, the kind doctor did all possible tests. White blood cells were twice the normal, impending septicemia and spreading the infection to all other organs, the blood PSA was unbelievable high 96.89 ng/ml showing that the prostate was already invaded, and so on and so on. There was no appeal. I was rushed away to the ward. As I was so confident of not being hospitalized, I did not bring the usual deposit money of at least Baht 20,000 to be admitted. But my grand-daughter knew better than me. She produced the money immediately. That's why so few people knew about it. I asked my grand-daughter to inform Sarah because I had promised Sarah of my participation at the Foundation. As regards hiccup, some say that when I have had my last injection for the infection, it will go away. I hope that is true. It is also likely, because the most common causes of constant hiccups are kidney failure and diaphragmatic irritation which is usually due to live cancer. The Ultrasound of my liver seems to be alright. So, I am keeping my fingers crossed. Meanwhile, I might take the hiccup as a meditation object for my vedanaaupassanaa. Don’t you think it is a good ides? Finally, I thank you very much for your kind concern, Howard. I wish you all the best. Respectfully, Han #82914 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han in good humour hantun1 Dear Friend Tep To be honest, I want to rest. I don’t want to do anything. I just want to have a long sleep away from hiccup and everything. But I have my obligations to reply to my well-wishers and their most sincere cetana. You know what? I have another devil inside me. Just a few hours ago, I found that I have “occult blood” in my stool! I will repeat again 2 or 3 times. If positive, I will have to undergo colonoscopy to see the true nature of that devil inside me. Respectfully, Han #82915 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humour upasaka_howard Hi, Han - In a message dated 2/19/2008 9:31:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hantun1@yah oo.com writes: Dear Howard, > Howard: Han, I don't know "where in the hell(!)" I've been! Consumed with our own difficulties, I guess! (So typical of self-involved human beings. I'm sorry to say that, somehow (amazingly, to me!), I've been entirely oblivious to your ordeal. I am so sorry for that.I'm happy to hear that the apparently most serious part of your difficulty, requiring hospitalization, is over, but I'm very sorry for this hiccupping ordeal. It must be extremely trying. Is it a gastrointestinal problem that causes it? Are you seeing a gastroenterologist or other doctor for it? With metta, Howard ------------------ Han: It was my own fault that nobody knew I was hospitalized. Even I did not know that I would be hospitalized on 13 February. On 12th morning I had slight burning sensation in urination. Nothing serious, I thought. I took some Penicillin. Afternoon, I did not feel better or worse. So I changed to another antibiotic. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, not so good, Han, such starting & stopping (and self-medicating). ------------------------------------------- Soon after that, I had very intense un-controllable shivering with teeth clattering, and with fever (like I had malaria during WWII). My family members did not know. They thought I was sleeping. At about 5 p.m. when they knew, they asked me to go to hospital immediately. You may not believe me, I had an intense aversion to hospitals, let alone to be hospitalized. So, to gain time, I told them to see for just one night, and if not improved, I would go the next day. Came the Next Day and improve it did not! What a hard luck! So I said I would go with their promise that they would not force me to admit to hospital. There I went meekly, hoping the good, benevolent doctor would just give me some medicines and let me go home. But alas, the kind doctor did all possible tests. White blood cells were twice the normal, impending septicemia and spreading the infection to all other organs, the blood PSA was unbelievable high 96.89 ng/ml showing that the prostate was already invaded, and so on and so on. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Various things can cause the PSA to spike, even certain medications such as antihistamines. If it is "just" an infection that's better than some other possibilities. ------------------------------------------------ There was no appeal. I was rushed away to the ward. As I was so confident of not being hospitalized, I did not bring the usual deposit money of at least Baht 20,000 to be admitted. But my grand-daughter knew better than me. She produced the money immediately. That's why so few people knew about it. I asked my grand-daughter to inform Sarah because I had promised Sarah of my participation at the Foundation. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: So I'm presuming that they determined that the problem was "only" an infection, that they discovered exactly what the infection was, and that proper antibiotics have cleared it out. ------------------------------------------------. As regards hiccup, some say that when I have had my last injection for the infection, it will go away. I hope that is true. It is also likely, because the most common causes of constant hiccups are kidney failure and diaphragmatic irritation which is usually due to live cancer. The Ultrasound of my liver seems to be alright. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: That's very encouraging. -------------------------------------------- So, I am keeping my fingers crossed. Meanwhile, I might take the hiccup as a meditation object for my vedanaaupassanaa. Don’t you think it is a good ides? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Kayanupassana, I guess - most centrally. Well, I suppose it makes good sense to take as meditation object whatever is most likely to grab your attention anyway - unless, of course, doing so is only upsetting to you. I would encourage you to do whatever is most calming to you at this time. ----------------------------------------- Finally, I thank you very much for your kind concern, Howard. I wish you all the best. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Likewise, Han! I wish you a rapid improvement and peace of mind. ------------------------------------------ Respectfully, Han ======================== With metta, Howard #82916 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han in good humour upasaka_howard Hi, Han - In a message dated 2/19/2008 9:45:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hantun1@... writes: Dear Friend Tep To be honest, I want to rest. I don’t want to do anything. I just want to have a long sleep away from hiccup and everything. But I have my obligations to reply to my well-wishers and their most sincere cetana. You know what? I have another devil inside me. Just a few hours ago, I found that I have “occult bloodâ€? in my stool! I will repeat again 2 or 3 times. If positive, I will have to undergo colonoscopy to see the true nature of that devil inside me. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Han, Despite your personal and ironic (you're a medical doctor, right?) aversion to things medical, please waste no time at all in doing the retesting, and in doing the colonoscopy if needed. The issue of whether we can "control" things or not aside, how we act and how *quickly* we act is very important. ------------------------------------------- Respectfully, Han ======================= With metta, Howard #82917 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:09 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 48 16. Mahaanipaato Conclusion Ehibhikkhuduko viya ehibhikkhuniduko idha na labbhati. Kasmaa? Bhikkhuniina.m tathaa upasampadaaya abhaavato. Yadi eva.m ya.m ta.m therigaathaaya subhaddaaya ku.n.dalakesaaya vutta.m- "Nihacca jaa.nu.m vanditvaa, sammukhaa a~njali.m aka.m; ehi bhaddeti ma.m avaca, saa me aasuupasampadaa"ti. (Theriigaa. 109). (6) Here, it is not possible [to make] a "Come, bhikkhunii" pair like the "Come, bhikkhu" pair. Why? Because for the bhikkhuniis there was no full ordination of that sort. Even if this is said by Subhaddaa Ku.n.dakadesaa in the Verses of the Theriis:* Having bent my knee, having paid homage to him, putting my raised hand together. I stood face to face with him. "Come Bhaddaa," he said to me. That was my full ordination. *Thii 109. KRN incorrectly accepts Mrs Rhys Davids remark (Sisters, p.67, n.4) that Bhaddaa was ordained by the ehi-bhikkhunii formula (EV II, p.84 ad vv. 107-11). Tathaa apadaanepi- "Aayaacito tadaa aaha, ehi bhaddeti naayako; tadaaha.m upasampannaa, paritta.m toyamaddasan"ti. (Apa. therii 2.3.44). Ta.m kathanti? Nayida.m ehibhikkhunibhaavena upasampada.m sandhaaya vutta.m. Upasampadaaya pana hetubhaavato yaa satthu aa.natti, saa me aasuupasampadaati vutta.m. Similarly, it is said in the Apadaana: Then the Leader said, "Come, Bhaddaa!" Then after my ordination, I saw a small amount of water. How was that? This was not said with reference to full ordination through [the words] "Come, bhikkhunii"'; rather, the Teacher's order was the cause of the full ordination, so she said, "That was my full ordination." Tathaa hi vutta.m a.t.thakathaaya.m "ehi, bhadde, bhikkhunupassaya.m gantvaa bhikkhuniina.m santike pabbajja upasampajjassuuti ma.m avoca aa.naapesi. Saa satthu aa.naa mayha.m upasampadaaya kaara.nattaa upasampadaa ahosii"ti. Eteneva apadaanagaathaayapi attho sa.mva.n.nitoti da.t.thabbo. This is what is said in the commentary: "He said to me, he ordered me, 'Come, Bhaddaa! Go to the residence of the bhikkhuniis and in the presence of the bhikkhuniis go forth and be fully ordained.' Because the Teacher's order to me was the cause of my full ordination, it became my full ordination." It is to be understood that the meaning in the verse in the Apadaana is also explained in the sameway. Evampi bhikkhunivibha"nge ehi bhikkhuniiti ida.m kathanti? Ehibhikkhunibhaavena bhikkhuniina.m upasampadaaya asabhaavajotanavacana.m tathaa upasampadaaya bhikkhuniina.m abhaavato. Even so, the expression "Come, bhikkhunii" occurs in the Bhikkhunii-vibha"nga.* How is that? It is not an expression that makes clear the independent existence of full ordination of bhikkhuniis by [the formula] "Come, bhikkhunii" because there are no bhikkhuniis [admitted to] full ordination in this way. *Vin IV 214 (BD III 160). Yadi eva.m, katha.m ehibhikkhuniiti vibha"nge niddeso katoti? Desanaanayasotapatitabhaavena. Aya~nhi sotapatitataa naama katthaci labbhamaanassaapi anaaha.ta.m hoti. If that is so, whay is the designation "Come, bhikkhunii" in the [Bhikkhunii-]vibha"nga? It is because [the expression] is carried along in the stream of the discourse method. For something that is not possible may not be mentioned on some occasions due to being swept [away] in the stream [of the discourse]. .. to be continued, connie #82918 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Han in good humour dhammanusara Dear Friend Han (& Howard), - Occult blood in the stool? Another repair job for the hospital to get busy with your fragile body! You have a good fighting spirit, Han. If my body had so many things to repair like yours, I would have given up long time ago. Again, I will keep sending you my best wishes with metta. May you emerge as the winner at the end of this long tunnel of tests and retests. Tep === #82919 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:52 am Subject: Re: A Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion with Nina dhammanusara Hello Howard & Nina, - > Howard: BTW, I'm happy about your doing this, not only for a possibly better translation, but because it will provide spoon-feeding of the Abhidhamma Pitaka to us in baby-size mouthfuls and allowing others to add relevant commentarial and suttic sugar to sweeten each mouthful. T: Thank you very much for your enthusiasm, Howard. But it is not a good idea to trust a baby to spoon-feed other babies, even with an adult's supervision ! ....................... >Nina: I am all for babyfeeding. We have to relate the Abhidhamma to daily life. T: That's fine. I am going to be your helper while you do the babyfeeding, Nina. To relate the Abhidhamma to daily life is also too difficult for a 'baby' like me. ;-)) Thanking you both, Tep === #82920 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:33 am Subject: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Hi Nina (and DSG friends), - The two sections 503 and 504 below are found in the Dhammasangani, book 1 of the Abhidhamm-pitaka. (Note: To make the Thai fonts readable please click on the 'View' button on the IE browser's toolbar, then select the UTF-8 encoding from the pull-down menu. You may have to repeat the operation a few times.) [503] All forms are not a cause, without a cause, separated from causes, associated with paccaya, ..., are objects of asavas, are objects of samyojana, ... objects of nivarana .. objects of upadana, ... are present-moment realities that are known by the six consciousnesses, are impermanent and overwhelmed by ageing. [521] What is the form that is called 'ruupayatana'? It is any form that is a color, depending on the four great elements, which is visible and touchable, for example : greenish color, purple, yellow, red, ... ...................... thia font deleted,c. .................................. Question: Is the above definition of all forms in the single group (ekka-matika) [503] limited to mahabhuta-ruupa in a body(kaya)-- because they are overwhelmed by ageing ? How does the visible form that is a "color" [521] fit into the "all forms" in [503]? They do not seem compatible. ............................................... Thank you very much. Tep === #82921 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina, and all) - In a message dated 2/19/2008 12:33:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: [503] All forms are not a cause, without a cause, separated from causes, associated with paccaya, ..., are objects of asavas, are objects of samyojana, ... objects of nivarana .. objects of upadana, ... are present-moment realities that are known by the six consciousnesses, are impermanent and overwhelmed by ageing. =============================== Right away - I don't understand what this is asserting! I come away with nothing from this sentence. All forms are not a cause??? Also, does the "not" apply to the rest of the sentence, or just that first part? Does it say that all forms are NOT without a cause (I hope) and NOT separated from causes (again, I hope). On the other hand, it doesn't mean, does it, that forms are NOT associated with paccaya? They ARE associated with it, are they not? I find this sentence impossible to get anything out of. Nina, can you please explain exactly what it is asserting? I would really appreciate that. You know, I must say that if the Abhidhamma Pitaka was spoken by the Buddha, it is amazing how his pristine clarity of teaching in the suttas has evaporated in the Abhidhamma. Is it a translation problem, Nina? With metta, Howard #82922 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Hi Howard, - I like your timely and lively response very much! >Howard: Right away - I don't understand what this is asserting! I come away with nothing from this sentence. All forms are not a cause??? Also, does the "not" apply to the rest of the sentence, or just that first part? Does it say that all forms are NOT without a cause (I hope) and NOT separated from causes (again, I hope). On the other hand, it doesn't mean, does it, that forms are NOT associated with paccaya? They ARE associated with it, are they not? I find this sentence impossible. ..................... Tep: Like I mentioned earlier, my translation from the Thai text (that is overloaded with unfamiliar-looking Pali words) may have caused a problem; and it seems that it does cause a problem ! Errors may be caused by my translation of the Thai text alone, or they may be a mixture of the original translation error from the Pali text to Thai plus my own translation error from Thai to English. All forms are not a cause(hetu) : the 'not' applies only to the first part of the long sentence. If you separate the pieces out, I think the result is as follows. All forms are not a cause, they are without a cause, they are separated from causes, they are associated with paccaya, ..., they are are objects of asavas, etc. Maybe ithe text has not caused me as much trouble because I have seen the text many times before. Yet, I don't think I have more than 50% of the full understanding. I do not fully believe in my interpretation, and I am glad that Nina is around to spoon-feed the baby ! Without the "dissecting feedback" like you have given, it would be difficult to understand the terse Abhidhamma text. It is even more difficult than the Patisambhidamagga in my opinion. Tep === #82923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani nilovg Hi Tep (and Howard) This is from Dhs, p. 155 english, no 595, and p. 167, no 617. I can read the Thai web, but not your rendering of the Thai. Perhaps you can explain where on the web it is? It seems that there are extracts, not full texts? Which association does this web? It looks very nice. Op 19-feb-2008, om 18:33 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > [503] All forms are not a cause, without a cause, separated from > causes, -------- N: Ruupa is not hetu, root, it is na-hetu. It is good to define in this way: what is root, what is not root. We have to be precise. Thus, it is not lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha. It helps us to see that rupa is not angry, is not attached, it does not feel anything. This helps us to better understand the nature of rupa, different from nama. --------- > Text: associated with paccaya, ------- N: sappacaya.m: is causally related. It is conditioned, no possessor. We cannot make it arise. It arises because of its own conditions. -------- > Text:..., are objects of asavas, are > objects of samyojana, ... objects of nivarana .. objects of > upadana, ------ N: All these defilements can take ruupa as object. It is so silly to be attached to what is mere visible object or sound. These objects are so insignificant (paritta), as the text also says. ------- > Text:... are present-moment realities that are known by the six > consciousnesses, ------ N: Pali: uppanna.m: arisen, they are still present. They are cognized by seeing, hearing, etc. This makes it daily! It is at this moment. ------- > Text: are impermanent and overwhelmed by ageing. ------ N: Even now they fall away, nobody can prevent this. They are already gone before we realize it. ------- > Text: [521] What is the form that is called 'ruupayatana'? > It is any form that is a color, depending on the four great elements, > which is visible and touchable, for example : greenish color, purple, > yellow, red, ... ------- N: The aayatana of visible object. It arises in one group together with the four great Elements. It is aayatana, because when there is seeing, visible object and eyesense are meeting, associating. Ayatana has several meanings and one of these is association. Green, purple, it is seen, but seeing does not define it as such. This makes it very natural, colour is not all grey or all white. Nina. #82924 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet, Solitude, Seclusion Now? E-card from Bangkok 3 nilovg Dear Sarah (and Howard), Thank you very much fro your report. Op 19-feb-2008, om 14:45 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Howard's qu on patience as viriya and why 2 paramis? Different > aspects. > Viriya now as we study dhamma and khanti as viriya for Han enduring > unpleasant objects. ------- N: Yes, discussed with Howard. Khanti is also translated by B.B. as acceptance. Han is patient, accepts what happens to him. This is khanti. Different aspects: these help us to develop the perfections leading to enlightenment. I liked this example: So much daily life. We ask time and again for some little thing, but thoughtlessly. And there is lack of shame when the citta is akusala, even of a slight degree. Good to learn more on sibatta paraamaasa. Vis. text now is about it. Nina. #82925 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 2/19/2008 1:32:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Tep: Like I mentioned earlier, my translation from the Thai text (that is overloaded with unfamiliar-looking Pali words) may have caused a problem; and it seems that it does cause a problem ! Errors may be caused by my translation of the Thai text alone, or they may be a mixture of the original translation error from the Pali text to Thai plus my own translation error from Thai to English. All forms are not a cause(hetu) : the 'not' applies only to the first part of the long sentence. If you separate the pieces out, I think the result is as follows. All forms are not a cause, they are without a cause, they are separated from causes, they are associated with paccaya, ..., they are are objects of asavas, etc. Maybe ithe text has not caused me as much trouble because I have seen the text many times before. Yet, I don't think I have more than 50% of the full understanding. I do not fully believe in my interpretation, and I am glad that Nina is around to spoon-feed the baby ! Without the "dissecting feedback" like you have given, it would be difficult to understand the terse Abhidhamma text. It is even more difficult than the Patisambhidamagga in my opinion. Tep =============================== Thanks very much for this clarification, Tep. The formulation you give here is easier to follow but still poses questtions for me. The material is the following: All forms are not a cause, they are without a cause, they are separated from causes, they are associated with paccaya, ..., they are are objects of asavas, etc. The 1st of these five lines seems to say that no rupa is a cause. What can that mean? Maybe it means that no *single* rupa is a cause. THAT would be true. From the standard Theravadin perspective, the second line seems to be a *major* problem! Forms are without a cause?? Something's mighty wrong there! The 3rd is at best ambiguous, depending on what is meant by "separated from". If that just means that no rupa is self-caused, that's fine, but that is a questionable reading. On the face of it, this sounds like a reiteration of the 2nd line. There *is* an interesting way in which this passage could be understood. When I first looked at it, I marveled at the apparent similarity to Nagarjuna's writing! Nagarjuna begins his primary work, the Mulamadhyamakakarikas, with the following: "Never are any existing things found to originate from themselves, from something else, from both, or from no cause." (In reading further in that work it becomes clear that this is actually a denial of entity-causes and a denial of substantial causal power, but not a denial of mere this/that conditionality.) If Nagarjuna was picking up on material such as this from the Dhammasangani, and if indeed this material has the same meaning as expressed in Nagarjuna's emptiness-based writing, then I would be not only satisfied, but utterly delighted! (The 4th line here, to the effect that all forms are associated with conditionality is fine from any Buddhist perspective, and Nagarjuna would quite agree with it. In fact, his second verse in that same work of his mentioned before lists four categories of condition.) With metta, Howard #82926 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Tep) - In a message dated 2/19/2008 2:44:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Tep (and Howard) This is from Dhs, p. 155 english, no 595, and p. 167, no 617. I can read the Thai web, but not your rendering of the Thai. Perhaps you can explain where on the web it is? It seems that there are extracts, not full texts? Which association does this web? It looks very nice. Op 19-feb-2008, om 18:33 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > [503] All forms are not a cause, without a cause, separated from > causes, -------- N: Ruupa is not hetu, root, it is na-hetu. It is good to define in this way: what is root, what is not root. We have to be precise. Thus, it is not lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha. It helps us to see that rupa is not angry, is not attached, it does not feel anything. This helps us to better understand the nature of rupa, different from nama. ============================== Good! This IS a translational matter. It is that forms are not roots, not that they fail to be causes. Thank you for clearing that up, Nina. But what of "All forms are wthout a cause, separated from causes"? With metta, Howard #82927 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:10 pm Subject: Re: Seeing present moment. 11 surefire things for Liberation truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > ... > S: The object of jhana is not the 'seeing of present realities'. The object of jhana is one of the 40 objects of samatha, such as a > kasina. >>>> Not fully correct. In the suttas Jhanas ARE highly refined states of consciousness where satipatthana (in some shape&form) happens. MN111 and other suttas show that. If you disagree with that, then it is your decision not mine. The more I analyze (through experience, not just theory) the concentration vs "not" the more I realize that Buddha was AGAINST "concentration" as some tend to interpret it. Whenever you are concetrating you are developing what is called "inattentional blindness". I witnessed it in a retreat (non- Buddhist) that I've just had in Hawaii. This inattentional blindness doesn't just happen in "normal" samatha, but "vipassana" practice as well (any concentration be it momentary, access, or even worse still Full) is developing blind spots. This blindness simply cannot awaken you! It may even develop heretical eternalism beliefs. This is perhaps one of the problems that Buddha's two (or 3) meditation teachers had. They focused too much on (nothingness or neither perception nor non perception) and couldn't see the alteration, non- self and satipatthana (in base of nothingness). > The wise understanding and reflection on jhana states occurs > subsequently during the reviewing process and by subsequent moments > of insight. >>>> No. it occurs DURING or immeadetely after the state occurs. Otherwise it is not the sort of Jhana that Buddha taught. 5 senses ARE present within the 4 Jhanas and they CAN happen in an unpurified Arupa Jhana (such as infinite space). > .... > S: These states were known after they had fallen away. >>> A split second afterwards perhaps. Sure. >>>>>>> With the development of insight, there has to be the development of detachment towards any dhammas which arise since all conditioned dhammas fall away. None are worth clinging to or desiring/seeking. > TRUE. Buddhist Jhana GOES with insight. Lots of Metta, Alex #82928 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... What Is Contemplation? truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > S: Yes, vipassana bhavana is insight into realities 'as they happen'. >>> Insight is a result of Samadhi. (see Upanisa sutta ie) and Samadhi is also conditioned by certain causes (such as Joy, tranquility etc). >> > It is not a method or strategy as performed or attempted in a > particular position on a retreat. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > True. The body position is not magickal in any way, but some positions are more helpful than others. Furthermore, you should know that one of the skills is to enter/exit Jhana at will. Where does "no control" fits in :) ? Lots of Metta, Alex #82929 From: "Leo" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] noble truth leoaive hi but happiness of jhanas is not dukka. leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Hi Leo, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" wrote: > > > thanks for reply. i found that it can be translated as: there is > > suffering. > > also, buddha said that dhamma is at the right time. in some cases > > buddha was talking about different happiness. so i see suffering as > > one subject and happiness as other. > ... > S: I see happiness as dukkha too. It also arises and falls away and is > thereby unsatisfactory. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > #82930 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] noble truth upasaka_howard Hi, Leo - In a message dated 2/19/2008 4:57:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, leoaive@... writes: hi but happiness of jhanas is not dukka. ============================== The happiness of jhanas is unsatisfactory (dukkha), because it does not last. Of course that happiness isn't suffering (i.e., mental pain) - it is quite the opposite. But when it is said that a phenomenon other than mental pain itself is dukkha, what is meant is that it is unsatisfactory, and that is indeed the case for all conditions, including the happiness of jhanas. No conditioned dhammas are sources of lasting satisfaction; they are all unsatisfactory, which is exactly what is meant by "Sabbe sankhara dukkha." With metta, Howard #82931 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Han in good humour kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > <. . .> > But I have my obligations to > reply to my well-wishers and their most sincere > cetana. > > Dear Han, That's what I was afraid of! In these situations I think it is good that a few of us write on behalf of all of us. Otherwise, where will it end? If we are not careful, people will be reluctant to mention their ailments for fear of creating too much fuss. So, please, DO NOT ANSWER THIS, and let me speak on behalf all DSG members who want to wish you well but do not want you to be overburdened by messages. Moderation in all things! :-) Ken H PS: I am glad Howard gave you a gentle rap over the knuckles for self medicating. Especially with antibiotics! Tut, tut! :-) #82932 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 238 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "I try to keep to the text. In this context vipaaka feelings condition craving." Larry: I agree keeping to the text is basically your duty and it makes sense that feeling conditions craving, but looked at carefully it's hard to follow in ordinary situations. Just now I was eating a salty potato chip and the salt seemed to condition more and more craving. How am I to understand this? In CMA the proximate cause of lobha is given as "seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage." Applied to the potato chip I could say I ate one potato chip and enjoyed it with pleasant feeling and I reasoned that eating another potato chip I would also enjoy that one with pleasant feeling. And I did. That impulse to eat another one was lobha. It would seem to me that the resultant 'engine' behind this feast is actually taste consciousness and the 'inherent desirability' of salt. There must be some way for resultant feeling to function here, but I don't see it. The reason I am going into this again and again is because craving is the cause of dukkha. So whatever conditions craving is of particular importance. Larry #82933 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism Ch XIX- prompted. lbidd2 Hi Nina and Ken, Nina: "it depends on what you mean by mindfulness. Mindfulness of nama or rupa.But this can be prompted or unprompted and this is hard to tell. An example could be: the Buddha says: do not be neglectful, and then one is mindful of a nama or rupa. But I like to be careful with examples." Larry: That's a good example. I think my original intention was to show that at least some degree of awareness of dhammas, even if only conventional, could be conditioned to arise by oneself without a belief in control being a part of the prompted consciousness. Whether or not there is a belief in control in the prompting consciousness is somewhat irrelevant to that prompted consciousness. I think I probably failed to accomplish my intention, but at least we aired out some of the issues. One thing that is crystal clear is that prompting often conditions the arising of an unexpected and undesired response, as evidenced by all the prompting I did to no avail. Ken, do you have any comments or questions about all this? Larry #82934 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Hi Howard (Nina, Colette), - After reading my new format of the Dhammasangani passage, this is what you wrote: >Howard: Thanks very much for this clarification, Tep. The formulation you give here is easier to follow but still poses questtions for me. The material is the following: All forms are not a cause, they are without a cause, they are separated from causes, they are associated with paccaya, ..., they are are objects of asavas, etc. ... ... ... T: But I think Nina's spoon feeding in the post # 82923 should have cleared up a few things(e.g. by replacing 'cause' with 'root'). Do you think it still is necessary for me to response to your following questions? >Howard: > The 1st of these five lines seems to say that no rupa is a cause. What can that mean? Maybe it means that no *single* rupa is a cause. THAT would be true. > From the standard Theravadin perspective, the second line seems to be a *major* problem! Forms are without a cause?? Something's mighty wrong there! > The 3rd is at best ambiguous, depending on what is meant by "separated from". If that just means that no rupa is self-caused, that's fine, but that is a questionable reading. On the face of it, this sounds like a reiteration of the 2nd line. T: Besides the above questions/comments, you also gave an interesting comment about Nagarjuna's writing that I'd like to discuss with you later. [Colette might be happy to read your comments too.] Thanks. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, Tep - > > > There *is* an interesting way in which this passage could be understood. > When I first looked at it, I marveled at the apparent similarity to > Nagarjuna's writing! Nagarjuna begins his primary work, the Mulamadhyamakakarikas, with the following: "Never are any existing things found to originate from themselves, from something else, from both, or from no cause." (In reading further in that work it becomes clear that this is actually a denial of entity-causes and a denial of substantial causal power, but not a denial of mere this/that conditionality.) If Nagarjuna was picking up on material such as this > from the Dhammasangani, and if indeed this material has the same meaning as expressed in Nagarjuna's emptiness-based writing, then I would be not only satisfied, but utterly delighted! (The 4th line here, to the effect that all forms are associated with conditionality is fine from any Buddhist perspective, and Nagarjuna would quite agree with it. In fact, his second verse in that same work of his mentioned before lists four categories of condition.) > #82935 From: "crosby_s" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:02 pm Subject: Right Speech crosby_s "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter: This is called right speech." I am trying to cultivate right speech in my mind but it is very hard when the people i work with have abusive speech and idle chatter. I know all parts of the noble 8 fold path work together, but how do you cultivate this in a working class western society that views this as a normal way of living.Should i ignore people like this or turn my speech or rhetoric towards them into something good, say sort of like the yang to there ying.I suppose it is hard when you have a life change for the good, cause the bad tend to be still there and you have to counter it some way if you are still amongst it? ....................................................... The Buddha summed it up well here. Verse 1. Suffering Follows The Evil-Doer Mind precedes all knowable s, mind's their chief, mind-made are they. If with a corrupted mind one should either speak or act dukkha follows caused by that, as does the wheel the ox's hoof. Verse 2. Happiness Follows The Doer of Good Mind precedes all knowable s, mind's their chief, mind-made are they. If with a clear, and confident mind one should speak and act as one's shadow ne'er departing. ....................................................... I am trying hard for Verse 2. With Metta, Steven. #82936 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Ken and Nina, Ken, I would be interested in reading your own clarifications or perhaps some point you would like to emphasize. It doesn't have to be as thorough as Nina's. Just a few words of your own. It is difficult to ask questions because many things will be clarified latter in the text. Nina: "Inductive insight: we have to be careful. I would like to know the Pali for inductive." Larry: The index gives "naya-vipassanaa". What does that mean? Larry #82937 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:36 pm Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Dear Nina (Howard), - You asked me about the website www.84000.org/ . >N: I can read the Thai web, but not your rendering of the Thai. Perhaps you can explain where on the web it is? It seems that there are extracts, not full texts? Which association does this web? It looks very nice. ................ T: The website doesn't tell anything about the team behind it. But I can guess that it is an improved version of the Luangta Boowa's website (Wat- pa Baan Taad). The section 503 is in the ekka-matika and section 521 is in the duka- nidessa of the first book, Dhammasangani. Check the weblinks below: http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/pitaka3/v.php?B=34&A=4141&Z=4158 http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/pitaka3/v.php?B=34&A=4414&Z=4762 ......................... T: I appreciate your providing comments/explanations that help remove the previous difficulties. Howard was very helpful in his feedback/questions that showed where the confusion lied. Yes, it makes sense that forms are not roots (lobha, ...), since roots are nama. But are forms not the same as any other namas as well? >N: The aayatana of visible object. It arises in one group together with the four great Elements. It is aayatana, because when there is seeing, visible object and eyesense are meeting, associating. Ayatana has several meanings and one of these is association. Green, purple, it is seen, but seeing does not define it as such. This makes it very natural, colour is not all grey or all white. T: I am confused because only colors are mentioned in the definition of the 'ruupayatana'. What about shape and size, for example? Thank you for the help, Nina. Tep == --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Nina (and DSG friends), - > > The two sections 503 and 504 below are found in the Dhammasangani, > book 1 of the Abhidhamm-pitaka. > > #82938 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humour hantun1 Dear Howard, Due to my physical condition, I cannot reply your message in detail, but I have noted them with many, many thanks. Respectfully, Han #82939 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han in good humour hantun1 Dear Howard, > Howard: Han, Despite your personal and ironic (you're a medical doctor, right?) aversion to things medical, please waste no time at all in doing the retesting, and in doing the colonoscopy if needed. The issue of whether we can "control" things or not aside, how we act and how *quickly* we act is very important. Han: Your very valuable advice is well taken. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #82940 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humour upasaka_howard Dear Han - Just take care, and be at ease as much as possible, my friend. With metta, Howard #82941 From: han tun Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Han in good humour hantun1 Dear Friend Tep, Thank you very much for your kind words of encouragement and your very sincere best wishes. Respectfully, Han #82942 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:50 pm Subject: Today is Navam Poya Day! bhikkhu0 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Navam Poya day is the full-moon of February. This holy day celebrates the ordination of the Buddha Gotama's main disciples S <....> On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards NibbÄ?na: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town, & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift, and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Navam Poya Day! Reference: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Navam_Poya_Day.htm Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #82943 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Howard, and Nina, N: "This is from Dhs, p. 155 english, no 595..." Scott: Here is the Rhys Davids translation for this first portion of the text: "[595]All form is that which is not root-condition (na hetu), not the concomitant of a root-condition (ahetuka.m), disconnected with root-condition (hetuvippayutta.m), causally related (sappacaya.m), conditioned (sa"nkata.m), endowed with form (ruupa.m), mundane (lokiya.m), co-intoxicant (sasava.m), of the Fetters (sa.myojaniya.m), of the Ties (ganthaniya.m), of the Floods (oghaniya.m), of the Bonds (yoganiya.m), of the Hindrances (niivara.niya.m); infected (parama.t.tha.m), of the Graspings (upaadaaniya.m), belonging to the Vices (sa.mkilseika.m), indeterminate (abyakata.m), void of mental objects (anaaramma.na.m), not a mental property (acetsika.m), disconnected with thought (cittavippayuta.m), neither moral result nor productive of it (nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhamma.m), not vicious yet belonging to the Vices (asa.mkili.t.tasa.mkilesika.m), not applied and sustained thinking (na savitakkasavicaara.m), neither 'applied, but only sustained thinking' (na avitakkavicaaramatta.m), neither 'applied nor sustained thinking' (avitakkavicaara.m), not 'accompanied by zest' (na piitisahagata.m), not 'accompanied by ease'(na sukhasahagata.m), not 'accompanied by indifference' (na upekkhaasahagata.m) not something capable of being got rid of either by insight or by cultivation (neva dassanena na bhaavaanaya pahaatabba.m), not that the cause of which may be got rid of either by insight or by cultivation (neva dassanena na bhaavaanaya pahataabbahetuka.m), neither tending to, nor away from, the accumulation involving rebirth (neva aacayagaami na appaccayagami), belonging neither to studentship nor to that which is beyond studentship (nevasekkhanaasekkha.m), of small account (paritta.m), related to the universe of the senses (kaamaavacara.m), not related to the universe of form (na ruupaavacara.m), nor to that of the formless (na aruupaavacara.m), included (pariyapanna.m), not of the Unincluded (no apariyapanna.m), not [something entailing] fixed [retribution] (aniyata.m), unavailing for [ethical] guidance (aniyyaanika.m), apparent (uppanna.m), cognizable by the six modes of cognition (chahi vi~n~naa.nehi vi~n~neya.m), impermanent (annica.m), subject to decay (jaraabhibhuuta.m). Such is the category of Form considered by way of single attributes." Sincerely, Scott. #82944 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi Nina and Larry, Your comments have been extremely helpful thanks, Nina. As I said before, I could more or less follow the meaning but only at an elementary level. What we might take to be an elementary, or simplified, level of right understanding is very often wrong though, isn't it? For example, I assumed that "what is not the path" was a reference to wrong theory. But as you point out, these chapters in the Vism. are not about theory: "what is not the path" refers to the defilements of vipassana. Larry, you wrote: ---- > Ken, I would be interested in reading your own clarifications or perhaps some point you would like to emphasize. It doesn't have to be as thorough as Nina's. Just a few words of your own. > ---- Yes, well, I didn't have much to say. Reading ahead (following those references) allowed me to grasp the gist of it, but that was about all. I could have said a bit about "knowledge and vision of what is *not* the path" because that struck me as something worth emphasising. DSG is constantly arguing over what is, and what is not, 'what the Buddha taught.' The defilements of vipassana go beyond that though, don't they? They only apply to someone who has discovered the true Dhamma and followed it to the early stages of vipassana. Sorry to have had so little to contribute, and sorry if I'm going to be a bit slow in typing out the next few paragraphs. There has been a big surf this week, and I am exhausted. It's a hard life! :-) Ken H #82945 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humour buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Lodewijk and I, while discussing your situation, > realized how close are compassion and aversion or worry about someone > else's situation. Kusala citta and akusala citta alternate, but > akusala cittas arise more often. What a lovely sentiment. Nina, you should write Hallmark cards. ;-)) This is one of the things I find so cold about the Abhidhamma method: being overly concerned about akusala mind states. Karuna, compassion, is the wish for sentient beings to be free from suffering. Wisdom and compassion should go together. Wisdom without compassion is cold and uncaring; compassion without wisdom is dosa and worry. But when the two are combined there is a perfect balance. I don't see this stressed enough in the Abhidhamma method. Metta, James ps. Han, glad that you have returned from the hospital! Sorry you have the hiccups. They say that a shock or a fright can help to get rid of the hiccups. Imagine yourself in Tep's place: studying the Abhidhamma for three hours a day for over a year!!- and that should shock/scare those hiccups right out of you! :-) #82946 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humour nilovg Hi James, Op 20-feb-2008, om 9:36 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > This is one of the things I find so cold about the Abhidhamma method: > being overly concerned about akusala mind states. Karuna, compassion, > is the wish for sentient beings to be free from suffering. Wisdom and > compassion should go together. Wisdom without compassion is cold and > uncaring; compassion without wisdom is dosa and worry. But when the > two are combined there is a perfect balance. ------- N: Compassion does not always arise with wisdom, it may just arise because of one's accumulations, also in those who never heard the Dhamma. When there is understanding there is not always at that moment an opportunity for compassion, no living being who suffers. But you may think of wisdom and compassion alternating, which is good. Compassion has to be true, pure, and therefore the Abhidhamma helps us not to be misled. Is this cold? Overly concerned about akusala? The truth is the truth, and it is to be preferred not to be deluded. Nina. #82947 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Hi Ken H, better be slow, otherwise I cannot keep up. I cannot say much each time, having to do Vis. XVII. Any remark from you is appreciated. Nina. Op 20-feb-2008, om 9:09 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Sorry to have had so little to contribute, and sorry if I'm going to > be a bit slow in typing out the next few paragraphs. #82948 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani nilovg Hi Tep, Howard, Scott. Op 20-feb-2008, om 3:36 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Yes, it makes sense that forms are not roots (lobha, ...), since > roots are > nama. But are forms not the same as any other namas as well? -------- N: Now the translation of the term ruupa: as Sarah also pointed out: sometimes it stands for ruupa in general: any kind of physical phenomenon, and sometimes it stands for visible object. Here it stands for ruupa in general. But in the other section about ruupaayatana it stands for colour. I find 'form' misleading. I do not get what you mean: are forms not the same as any other namas as well? -------- Howard: All forms are wthout a cause, separated from causes"? ------------ N: We look here at the Pali, thank you Scott: ahetuka, rootless and disconnected with root-condition (hetuvippayutta.m). Lobha-muulacitta is sahetuka, accompanied by root. But all dhammas other than the sahetuka cittas and cetasikas that are accopmapnied by roots, are ahetuka. Thus, ruupa is not accompanied by root, it is ahetuka. When we see other people being angry, it seems that we 'see' their anger. But only colour is seen and colour is not accompanied by anger, it is disconnected from anger. ----------- > > >N: The aayatana of visible object. It arises in one group together > with the four great Elements. It is aayatana, because when there is > seeing, visible object and eyesense are meeting, associating. Ayatana > has several meanings and one of these is association. > Green, purple, it is seen, but seeing does not define it as such. > This makes it very natural, colour is not all grey or all white. > > T: I am confused because only colors are mentioned in the > definition of > the 'ruupayatana'. What about shape and size, for example? ------ N: Shape and size are not seen, they are perceived through the mind- door. When you notice the shape and form there is already defining and thinking on account of what was seen. Thus, visisble object is only colour, this impinges on the eye-sense which is also aayatana. Here ruupaayatana stands for visible object. Afterwards in the text the aayatanas of sound etc. are dealt with. ------- Scott, if you have time, it is very helpful if you also add a personal remark here and there after the terms that you list. ------ Nina. #82949 From: han tun Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Han in good humour hantun1 Dear James, I like your ps. very much. ps. Han, glad that you have returned from the hospital! Sorry you have the hiccups. They say that a shock or a fright can help to get rid of the hiccups. Imagine yourself in Tep's place: studying the Abhidhamma for three hours a day for over a year!!- and that should shock/scare those hiccups right out of you! :-) Han: I had the shock already, James, when I saw the hospital bill. Although I am insured by WHO, it was unbelievable! As regards hiccups, a doctor friend of mine in California, said that these injections that I am taking intravenously (the last will be on Feb 22), can also cause hiccups. When the medication stops the hiccups will also stop. I hope he is right! It is funny: you give one medicine to relieve one discomfort and cause another discomfort. Respectfully, Han #82950 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 238 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Op 20-feb-2008, om 2:31 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > In CMA the proximate cause of lobha is given as "seeing enjoyment in > things that lead to bondage." Applied to the potato chip I could say I > ate one potato chip and enjoyed it with pleasant feeling and I > reasoned > that eating another potato chip I would also enjoy that one with > pleasant feeling. And I did. That impulse to eat another one was > lobha. > It would seem to me that the resultant 'engine' behind this feast is > actually taste consciousness and the 'inherent desirability' of salt. > There must be some way for resultant feeling to function here, but I > don't see it. ------- N: Feeling here originates through the six kinds of contact. It conditions craving which is craving for the six objects which can be classified as eighteen... hundred and eight. Tasting-consciousness experiences flavour, and this flavour is contacted by contact. It conditions feeling which is vipaaka, accompanying the tasting-consciousness. We have to remember that there are different ways of conditioning and one of these ways is conascence and other conditions that are conascent. The pleasant feeling you speak of arises later in the process, together with craving and clinging. ------- > > L: The reason I am going into this again and again is because > craving is > the cause of dukkha. So whatever conditions craving is of particular > importance. -------- N: This comprises also the dukkha of rebirth, occurring in the cycle. ------ Nina. #82951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism Ch XIX- prompted. nilovg HI Larry, Op 20-feb-2008, om 2:52 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > One thing that is crystal clear is that > prompting often conditions the arising of an unexpected and undesired > response, as evidenced by all the prompting I did to no avail. ------- N: The citta did not want to be prompted, stubbornness. Nina. #82952 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Hi Larry, Op 20-feb-2008, om 3:02 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina: "Inductive insight: we have to be careful. I would like to know > the Pali for inductive." > > Larry: The index gives "naya-vipassanaa". What does that mean? ------ N: Naya is method, inference, leading. Inference is a conclusion drawn from reasoning, which misses the mark here. One could say: these are lower stages that will lead on to the higher ones. Naya is from nayati: to lead. Netti is a guide. Nina. #82953 From: han tun Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:47 am Subject: Re:Q. re: [dsg] Patthaana (7) hantun1 Dear Nina, I am sorry I am not competent to discuss on Sayadaw Ashin Janakaabhivamsa or Sayadaw U Narada. In Patthaana (7), I had written that [Ruupaayatanam cakkhuvinnaanadhaatuyaa tamsampayuttakaananca dhammaanam aarammanapaccayena paccayo.] [Visible object-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition.] does not reflect adequately the nature of object condition. That was my personal opinion. ---------- And then I added that as Sayadaw had mentioned the arising of kusala cittas, akusala cittas and abyaakata cittas under this condition, the relation I had drawn was: Eye + eye-consciousness (Matter-and-Mind) relates to so many other mental states (Mind) that arise based on eye and eye-consciousness. This is because the object condition belongs to: E. Mind-and-Matter for Mind Group. Again, this was my personal opinion. ---------- I was just trying to mention the usefulness of knowing such groupings. If there are any mistakes in the above, please correct me. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: I miss something in Sayadaw's statements. They > have their merit > but I miss life, they are not connected with daily > life and very much > intellect-orientated. He is very sharp, but it is > all too technical > for me. That is just personal, I can't help it. Also > before I noticed > that he spoke about the intellectual genius that the > Buddha is, and > several times he used the expression intellect. > Another Burmese Sayadaw, U Narada, in his book > 'Guide to Conditional > Relations' keeps the connection with daily life . It > is well written > and he uses interesting similes. > Whatever I learn, I find it helpful when it is about > my daily life. I > need all the help I can possibly get, life is too > short. > Nina. > #82954 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Dear Scott (Nina, Howard, ..) - I am delighted to see your great contribution -- it is the missing link that makes the picture perfect. First we have the Thai version, that I translated into English, and it was confusing. Then Nina gave her comment/interpretation with some Pali words; the picture got better. But now we have the total picture through your kind and energetic contribution, because it gives both (expert) English translation and complete Pali text. .......... > Scott: > Dear Tep, Howard, and Nina, > > > N: "This is from Dhs, p. 155 english, no 595..." > > Scott: Here is the Rhys Davids translation for this first portion of > the text: > > "[595]All form is that which is > > not root-condition (na hetu), > not the concomitant of a root-condition (ahetuka.m), > disconnected with root-condition (hetuvippayutta.m), > causally related (sappacaya.m), > conditioned (sa"nkata.m), > endowed with form (ruupa.m), > mundane (lokiya.m), > co-intoxicant (sasava.m), > of the Fetters (sa.myojaniya.m), > of the Ties (ganthaniya.m), > of the Floods (oghaniya.m), > of the Bonds (yoganiya.m), > of the Hindrances (niivara.niya.m); > infected (parama.t.tha.m), > of the Graspings (upaadaaniya.m), > belonging to the Vices (sa.mkilseika.m), > indeterminate (abyakata.m), > void of mental objects (anaaramma.na.m), > not a mental property (acetsika.m), > disconnected with thought (cittavippayuta.m), > neither moral result nor productive of it > (nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhamma.m), > not vicious yet belonging to the Vices (asa.mkili.t.tasa.mkilesika.m), > not applied and sustained thinking (na savitakkasavicaara.m), > neither 'applied, but only sustained thinking' (na > avitakkavicaaramatta.m), > neither 'applied nor sustained thinking' (avitakkavicaara.m), > not 'accompanied by zest' (na piitisahagata.m), > not 'accompanied by ease'(na sukhasahagata.m), > not 'accompanied by indifference' (na upekkhaasahagata.m) > not something capable of being got rid of > either by insight or by cultivation (neva dassanena na bhaavaanaya > pahaatabba.m), > not that the cause of which may be got rid of > either by insight or by cultivation (neva dassanena na bhaavaanaya > pahataabbahetuka.m), > neither tending to, nor away from, the > accumulation involving rebirth (neva aacayagaami na appaccayagami), > belonging neither to studentship nor to that > which is beyond studentship (nevasekkhanaasekkha.m), > of small account (paritta.m), > related to the universe of the senses (kaamaavacara.m), > not related to the universe of form (na ruupaavacara.m), > nor to that of the formless (na aruupaavacara.m), > included (pariyapanna.m), > not of the Unincluded (no apariyapanna.m), > not [something entailing] fixed [retribution] (aniyata.m), > unavailing for [ethical] guidance (aniyyaanika.m), > apparent (uppanna.m), > cognizable by the six modes of cognition (chahi vi~n~naa.nehi > vi~n~neya.m), > impermanent (annica.m), > subject to decay (jaraabhibhuuta.m). > > Such is the category of Form considered by way of single attributes." > ........... It is great. Howard, do you like it too? Tep === #82955 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Dear Nina, - The explanation you kindly gave in # 82948 is wonderful -- it is a good education. I appreciate your time and kind help. Now about the unclear question : >Tep: > Yes, it makes sense that forms are not roots (lobha, ...), since > roots are > nama. But are forms not the same as any other namas as well? -------- N: I do not get what you mean: are forms not the same as any other namas as well? -------- T: In # 82923 you wrote, "Ruupa is not hetu, root, it is na-hetu. It is good to define in this way: what is root, what is not root. We have to be precise. Thus, it is not lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha". So I thought: hmm.. ruupa is not any of the roots that are all nama; but it still is not clear since ruupa is not a nama either, and other namas like vedana and sanna are neither roots. In short, I was confused as to what you explained in #82923. But it is no longer confusing after your post #82948. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, Howard, Scott. ... > > > > T: I am confused because only colors are mentioned in the > > definition of > > the 'ruupayatana'. What about shape and size, for example? > ------ > N: Shape and size are not seen, they are perceived through the mind- > door. When you notice the shape and form there is already defining > and thinking on account of what was seen. > Thus, visisble object is only colour, this impinges on the eye-sense > which is also aayatana. > Here ruupaayatana stands for visible object. Afterwards in the text > the aayatanas of sound etc. are dealt with. > ------- #82956 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina, and Colette) - In a message dated 2/19/2008 9:00:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard (Nina, Colette), - After reading my new format of the Dhammasangani passage, this is what you wrote: >Howard: Thanks very much for this clarification, Tep. The formulation you give here is easier to follow but still poses questtions for me. The material is the following: All forms are not a cause, they are without a cause, they are separated from causes, they are associated with paccaya, ..., they are are objects of asavas, etc. ... ... ... T: But I think Nina's spoon feeding in the post # 82923 should have cleared up a few things(e.g. by replacing 'cause' with 'root'). Do you think it still is necessary for me to response to your following questions? ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina's replacement of 'cause' by 'root' made all the difference on the first line, though it leaves the line as a banality. There remains no problem with it for me. But it remains quite unclear to me what it means where it is said in the Dhammasangani that roots are without cause and are separated from causes. If these have the sense adopted later by Nagarjuna, that would be fascinating, but unlikely I think. Read in the ordinary, commonsense way of forms being causeless, they are contrary to the Dhamma, and that reading is contradicted then by the 4th line. So, there still remains for me *much* needed explaining. Also, Nina's translation of 'hetu' by root instead of 'cause' opens up other questions: In general usage, especially sutta usage, 'hetu' carries much the same sense as "condition," but in the Abhidhamma, which is relevant here, it refers more specifically to the 3 akusala roots, lobha, dosa, and moha, of mind states and their opposite kusala roots. These are cetasikas. Is it not trivially obvious, and very odd to point out, that rupas aren't roots of mind states? Rupas are not certasikas, of course! In lines 2) and 3), you provided the English word, 'cause', Tep. What is the Pali? Is it the same 'hetu' or something else? Just as I pointed out with regard to the first line, if it is 'hetu', it would be true but *really* trivial to note that rupas are without roots and are separated from roots (that later locution being "odd"), and, moreover, one then wonders why in line 4 there is a leaving of the matter of roots and an introduction of "condition" or "cause". On the other hand, if the Pali in lines 2 & 3 is correctly rendered by "cause", then the oddity of line 4 disappears, but lines 2 and 3 become false (unless interpreted a la Nagarjuna). ------------------------------------------------------------- >Howard: > The 1st of these five lines seems to say that no rupa is a cause. What can that mean? Maybe it means that no *single* rupa is a cause. THAT would be true. --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, that idea of multiple conditions needed for a cause is irrelevant, given that 'cause' should have been 'root'. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > From the standard Theravadin perspective, the second line seems to be a *major* problem! Forms are without a cause?? Something's mighty wrong there! > The 3rd is at best ambiguous, depending on what is meant by "separated from". If that just means that no rupa is self-caused, that's fine, but that is a questionable reading. On the face of it, this sounds like a reiteration of the 2nd line. T: Besides the above questions/comments, you also gave an interesting comment about Nagarjuna's writing that I'd like to discuss with you later. [Colette might be happy to read your comments too.] ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would guess that the formulation of this material merely reminded me of Nagarjuna's work. While possible, it is doubtful that the meaning was the same or even close. Thoguh sometimes valid, generally I think it's a mistake to attempt to superimpose later material and meanings on earlier material. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks. =============================== With metta, Howard P. S. I'm hoping that there will be no moving forward to other material until this material becomes clearly explained and understood. #82957 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:38 am Subject: Different accumulations....E-card from Bangkok 5 sarahprocter... Dear Friends, A small group this afternoon - Rob K, Sukin, Azita, Pinna, Metta & Kusima (Thai friends), us, K.Sujin and her sister. Ivan came late. Sila - includes positive aspects such as deeds of speech conditioned by citta, not just abstention from akusala. For example, helping and performing good deeds for others with kusala. Avyakata sila for the arahat. Levels of sila including satipatthana. Indirya samvara sila at moment of understanding a reality. Right livelihood - not naming it. Realities are different, cannot pinpoint. Not just what we think of as livelihood, but also for living. When citta is kusala, levels of cetasikas. Panna knows, otherwise it's 'trying to know'. When it's right abstention with rt understanding, magga has to be there. Do you want to classify or directly understand what is citta there right now? The point of study is to understand reality right now. Do not get away from reality now....v.o. a reality which can be seen. See the difference between the moment of being aware and the moment of thinking. Everything has gone so fast...No one can stop memory. What we are used to... Breath - why had she raised the topic? Common misunderstandings. People think they have experience of breath. It only appears through the development of panna. More subtle than what we take for breath. Meditation on 4 elements. Even if someone knows it's akusala, perhaps it can be a training of sanna for later? They don't know kusala, so what's the purpose of training sanna with no understanding? Wrong practice cannot lead to right practice. Sacca ~nana is very important. Take the accumulations of Sariputta - he had accumulated the understanding of sacca ~nana for so very long. Visuddhis (purifications) - sila visuddhi. Purifying sila through the development of satipatthana. before any stage of insight. No other way. 6 mundane visuddhis leading to the 7th supramundane visuddhi when sila is purified, i.e precepts no longer broken. Discussion on relics. How do we know it's the Buddha's relics. Does it matter? The citta.... - just visible object (as Ivan pointed out!). Why relics rather than Buddha statues at the foundation? Relics as part of the Buddha.....statues came later....No room?? When one knows the path, one understands the meaning of patience. Someone may have patience for other things, but not the path. Other kinds of patience with lobha, dosa and moha, but then we use the word viriya. Patimokkha with kusala. The reason for following the Patimokkha must be connected to the development of understanding. What is Patimokkha? What is wrong and what is the right thing to do? Rules? Or what is wrong should not be done, what is right should be done for the sake of purification and elimination of akusala in the monk's life. The Patimokkha - taught monks to understand what's right and wrong. Just a little akusala will lead to great akusala by not seeing it. Both the monk and lay-person would like to eliminate akusala, but since everyone understands accumulations - one knows what is suitable for oneself(!). The Patimokkha is for monks because of their accumulations to do such things, i.e lead such a lifestyle. Being in the presence of monks of any value? What for? What is a monk? The one who follows the Buddha's teachings. On Buddhist pilgrimages with our Thai friends, we always end up asking for forgiveness from the Triple Gem. Is there any reference to this in the texts or is it just a Thai custom? Appati(offences) in the Vinaya -a monk confesses and resolves not to do it again.....A kind of showing of respect, a training in that way to admit our wrong doings. Discussion about the wording. Maybe better to say 'let us offer our apologies"...."we apologise for our wrong doings...." Maybe, 'we admit our wrong doings.....' as it's not asking forgiveness or apologising to a person..... Dreams -kusala and akusala. The cetana always counts, but not kamma-patha. Akusala kamma patha through the mind - only certain wrong views. Taking pleasure in another's killing - degrees, can be a strong support condition only. Nibbana - the Bodhisatta's search for truth (Mike and Scott were discussing this, I think). Sacca ~nana again, different kinds of thinking. In the Bodhsisatta's case, understood moments of thinking without any akusala, knew what was meant by the opposite of citta, cetasika and rupa. hmmm....For aeons, interested in not moving away from studying the present moment. For us, thoughts of the goal and nibbana most likely to be akusala.... Sanna and the carpenter's mark. A carpenter's mark reveals a lot of detail. Does sanna? Just like the carpenter's mark! ******* We'll be here for one more session, the regular Saturday session and then return to Hong Kong on Sunday. The next couple of days, Jon and I are spending quietly. Fortunately, Jon has some work he can/must do here which helps pay for the trip! We all have such very different accumulations and areas of interest (in a worldly sense). All that matters is the development of right understanding of the realities appearing, regardless.... Metta, Sarah p.s Han,I'm so happy to see you getting back into form. When you're really on the mend (and only then), pls do share your reflections on sickness and Dhamma.... ========= #82958 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:20 am Subject: TYPO and Further Comment Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammas... upasaka_howard Hi - In a message dated 2/20/2008 7:26:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: But it remains quite unclear to me what it means where it is said in the Dhammasangani that roots are without cause and are separated from causes. =============================== The word 'roots' was supposed to be 'rupas'. Sorry. Thanks to Scott, it now becomes clear that mention of causes in the 1st 3 lines is mistaken. Modifying your formulation, Tep, the first 4 lines, in simple formulation, become as follows: Forms are not root conditions, they are not a concomitant to a root condition, they are separated from root conditions, they are associated with conditionality, ... As becomes clear from the rest of Scott's so very useful translation, the various "problems" associated with this material are largely non-problems, for all the material amounts to is a stringing together of a lengthy list of facts about rupas, some trivial and some less so. There are a couple "oddities" that I note in the material, as follows: All form is that which is ... endowed with form (ruupa.m), and belonging to the Vices (sa.mkilseika.m. But the bottom-line is that the problems with this material have disappeared, leaving it largely understandable though not fascinating. With metta, Howard #82959 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "I am delighted to see your great contribution -- it is the missing link that makes the picture perfect..." Scott: You're welcome, Tep. I'll get the text for the other passage when time allows. Sincerely, Scott. #82960 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:09 am Subject: Re: Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Hi Howard (Nina, Scott), - The discussion gets more interesting after we got new contributions from Scott and Nina. Let me focus on the five lines as shown earlier: Tep's translation: All forms are not a cause, they are without a cause, they are separated from causes, they are associated with paccaya, ..., they are are objects of asavas Rys Davids' Translation & the pali provided by Scott are: All form is that which is not root-condition (na hetu), not the concomitant of a root-condition (ahetuka.m), disconnected with root-condition (hetuvippayutta.m), causally related (sappacaya.m), ..., co-intoxicant (sasava.m). Your main concerns at this point that I can address are : Howard: In lines 2) and 3), you provided the English word, 'cause', Tep. What is the Pali? Is it the same 'hetu' or something else? Just as I pointed out with regard to the first line, if it is 'hetu', it would be true but *really* trivial to note that rupas are without roots and are separated from roots (that later locution being "odd"), and, moreover, one then wonders why in line 4 there is a leaving of the matter of roots and an introduction of "condition" or "cause". On the other hand, if the Pali in lines 2 & 3 is correctly rendered by "cause", then the oddity of line 4 disappears, but lines 2 and 3 become false (unless interpreted a la Nagarjuna). T: In both lines 2 and 3 the Pali for 'cause' is 'hetu' as is clear by Rys Davids' translation and Scott's Pali inserts. I apologize for my lack of skill that has caused confusions. Now, with the better translation we read that all ruupas are not the concomitant of a root-condition (ahetuka.m), they are disconnected with root-condition (hetuvippayutta.m), and thet are causally related, I hope your above questions are adequately answered. >Howard: Read in the ordinary, commonsense way of forms being causeless, they are contrary to the Dhamma, and that reading is contradicted then by the 4th line. T: Referring to the correct translation forms are not causeless, but rather are 'not root-conditioned' and 'causally related', meaning conditioned. .................... T: As to the other point, I rather leave them to Nina's skillful handling. Nina's replacement of 'cause' by 'root' made all the difference on the first line, though it leaves the line as a banality. There remains no problem with it for me. But it remains quite unclear to me what it means where it is said in the Dhammasangani that roots are without cause and are separated from causes. .................. Thank you very much for the keen observation and questions. We are not in a hurry to move on until the subject is well understood, like you have suggested. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep (and Nina, and Colette) - > ... > ------------------------------------------------------------- > P. S. I'm hoping that there will be no moving forward to other material > until this material becomes clearly explained and understood. > #82961 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:11 am Subject: Re: Q. re: [dsg] Patthaana (7) nilovg Dear Han, Op 20-feb-2008, om 11:47 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > And then I added that as Sayadaw had mentioned the > arising of kusala cittas, akusala cittas and abyaakata > cittas under this condition, the relation I had drawn > was: > > Eye + eye-consciousness (Matter-and-Mind) relates to > so many other mental states (Mind) that arise based on > eye and eye-consciousness. ------- N: I think we have to distinguish between object-condition and dependence-condition, where the physical base ((eyesense) is dependence-condition for seeing. Object-condition: any nama or rupa that is object of citta is related to that citta by object-condition, by being its object. -------- > > H: This is because the object condition belongs to: > E. Mind-and-Matter for Mind Group. > Again, this was my personal opinion. ------ N: what is this mindgroup? Nina. #82962 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:18 am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, The conversation between the venerable Bhikkhu and Acharn Sujin took place last time I visited Thailand. A group of Dhamma friends from different countries were together for a few days and we all met in the building of the “Foundation for the Study and Preservation of Dhamma”. We had several sessions in English and after my friends had left I had more sessions in Thai. The weekend program in the Foundation is very balanced, it comprises: the study of Suttas with commentaries, of Abhidhamma, of Vinaya and dialogues about satipatthåna. Sutta reading may seem to be easy when one only pays attention to the stories and the conventional terms such as birth, old age and death, by means of which the Buddha explained the four noble Truths and the Dependent Origination. However, without the study of the Abhidhamma which explains the details of realities, we cannot understand the deep meaning of what is contained in the sutta. All the suttas actually contain Abhidhamma and are pointing to vipassanå, the way to develop right understanding of dhammas occurring in daily life. On Sundays, one hour is spent with the reading of the rules of the Vinaya and discussions about them. These rules pertain to the monk’s behaviour and speech in his daily life and explain the different degrees of defilements that occur and that should be discerned. Also laypeople can apply the Vinaya in their own situation. Many defilements are unnoticed, but understanding developed through satipaììhåna can investigate their true nature, and this will lead to their eradication. Several teachers are assisting Acharn Sujin and I was impressed by their thorough and detailed study of the texts and their dedication. After a full day of Dhamma discussion on Sunday with only one hour in between for luncheon, there is another session of two more hours of studying and discussing subtle points of the teachings and the consultation of the Pali texts. All those sessions were greatly inspiring to me and they helped me to have more confidence in the Dhamma. Khun Duangduen, with her abundant hospitality, gave a luncheon in her house as she always does on Sundays. Even while taking the food at the buffet table we could exchange observations on the difficult nature of satipaììhåna, and remind each other that we should not become discouraged. Also Mom Betty Bongkojpriya and Sukinderpal who are residents of Bangkok gave a luncheon for the whole group of foreign friends. During my last days in Bangkok, Acharn Sujin and her sister Khun Jid invited us for luncheon, there was no limit to their hospitality and kindness. At the weekend people bring flowers to be placed in front of the relics of the Buddha. They were so kind to hand them to me, so that I had many times an opportunity to kneel in front of the relics and pay respect. When Acharn Sujin also knelt next to me to pay respect, I had an opportunity to pay respect to her at her feet. With this gesture I expressed respect and gratefulness for learning through her to develop understanding of the Dhamma. ****** Nina. #82963 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Dear Scott (Nina, Howard), - It is nice to see this reply : --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for the reply: > > T: "I am delighted to see your great contribution -- it is the missing > link that makes the picture perfect..." > > Scott: You're welcome, Tep. I'll get the text for the other passage > when time allows. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > T: I am learning the Abhidhamma because of Nina and you, and I feel humbled after realizing that there is so much to be learnt, and so much misinterpretation (on my part) to be corrected (thanks to Howard). Regards, Tep === #82964 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:39 am Subject: Re: TYPO and Further Comment Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammas... nilovg Hi Howard and Tep, Op 20-feb-2008, om 14:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There are a couple > "oddities" that I note in the material, as follows: > > All form is that which is ... > > endowed with form (ruupa.m), ------- N: I understand. It seems double to say that all rupa is rupa. It is paraphrased as: just rupa (ruupa.m eva). To distinguish it from naama. ----- > Text: and > belonging to the Vices (sa.mkilseika.m. ------ N: The defilements can take ruupas as objects. Ruupas are bound up with defilements. Those who develop jhaana see the disadvantage of rupa, want to be away from rupa. Are pleasant colours not'inviting' to attachment? Expositor, II, p. 400 explains also these terms. As to hetu-paccaya, this can be used in a general sense, as causal relation. But here hetu is used in the sense of root. Why is it said: na-hetu, not root? Often in the Abhidhamma we find the positive method and the negative method. Also in the Patthana. This is to clarify further, to leave no doubt. As indicated, I also find these explanations useful reminders in daily life. Is there anything else? I cannot move fast, lack of time. Nina. #82965 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Speech nilovg Dear Steven, Op 20-feb-2008, om 3:02 heeft crosby_s het volgende geschreven: > I am trying to cultivate right speech in my mind but it is very hard > when the people i work with have abusive speech and idle chatter. > I know all parts of the noble 8 fold path work together, but how do > you cultivate this in a working class western society that views this > as a normal way of living.Should i ignore people like this or turn my > speech or rhetoric towards them into something good, say sort of like > the yang to there ying.I suppose it is hard when you have a life > change for the good, cause the bad tend to be still there and you have > to counter it some way if you are still amongst it? ------- N: You see the disadvantage of wrong speech and this is a condition for right speech. Whatever we say or do depends on conditions operating at a particular moment. Nobody can predict what happens. Very hard to make a plan. It is sati that keeps one from wrong speech, and sati arises with kusala citta. How can we make it arise at will? Thus, the question: should I ignore those people is not relevant. You have to be with them in your work. One can listen, but it is not necessary to pay much attention to their stories. What is heard is only sound, and after hearing kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise, very fast. They cannot be manipulated. And if one still engages in wrong speech it is a good reminder that we have accumulated so many defilements during countless lives. Best is to have more understanding also of one's akusala, as a conditioned dhamma. Nina. #82966 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:18 am Subject: Re: TYPO and Further Comment Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dha... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/20/2008 9:40:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Tep, Op 20-feb-2008, om 14:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There are a couple > "oddities" that I note in the material, as follows: > > All form is that which is ... > > endowed with form (ruupa.m), ------- N: I understand. It seems double to say that all rupa is rupa. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. :-) ------------------------------------------ It is paraphrased as: just rupa (ruupa.m eva). To distinguish it from naama. ------------------------------------------ Howard: OK, good. ------------------------------------------ ----- > Text: and > belonging to the Vices (sa.mkilseika.m. ------ N: The defilements can take ruupas as objects. Ruupas are bound up with defilements. Those who develop jhaana see the disadvantage of rupa, want to be away from rupa. Are pleasant colours not'inviting' to attachment? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Ahh, ok, not "bad" in themselves, but subject to desire, aversion, and clinging - as, for example, desire for and clinging to "sensual delights" which, in themselves, are mere body-door rupas. Whatever one may cling to thereby is a "vice". ------------------------------------------ Expositor, II, p. 400 explains also these terms. As to hetu-paccaya, this can be used in a general sense, as causal relation. But here hetu is used in the sense of root. Why is it said: na-hetu, not root? Often in the Abhidhamma we find the positive method and the negative method. Also in the Patthana. This is to clarify further, to leave no doubt. As indicated, I also find these explanations useful reminders in daily life. Is there anything else? I cannot move fast, lack of time. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Better all around to move slowly, I think. Thank you, Nina. -------------------------------------------- Nina. ======================== With metta, Howard #82967 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:06 am Subject: Re: Right Speech ... MN 78 ... dhammanusara Hi Steven, (Nina, and Sarah) - I like your practical-minded question on right speech, Steven. My two cents are given below. Steven (#82935): > I am trying to cultivate right speech in my mind but it is very hard when the people i work with have abusive speech and idle chatter. Nina (#82965): You see the disadvantage of wrong speech and this is a condition for right speech. ... It is sati that keeps one from wrong speech, and sati arises with kusala citta. How can we make it arise at will? What is heard is only sound, and after hearing kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise, very fast. They cannot be manipulated. And if one still engages in wrong speech it is a good reminder that we have accumulated so many defilements during countless lives. Best is to have more understanding also of one's akusala, as a conditioned dhamma. Sarah (#82957): Sila - includes positive aspects such as deeds of speech conditioned by citta, not just abstention from akusala. For example, helping and performing good deeds for others with kusala. Avyakata sila for the arahat. Levels of sila including satipatthana. Indirya samvara sila at moment of understanding a reality. Tep: Nina says that sati (mindfulness) stops a wrong speech, but it is not possible to have kusala citta (and sati that accompanies it) to arise "at will". She suggests the best solution is "to have more understanding". Sarah talks about abstention from akusala along with performing good deeds. Abstention from a wrong speech is right speech, a magga factor that is kusala as you rightly quoted: "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter: This is called right speech." You ask: "I know all parts of the noble 8 fold path work together, but how do you cultivate this in a working class western society that views this as a normal way of living". In my opinion right speech is a personal choice -- it is what we maintain/practice/develop, regardless of whom we are talking to, where, or when. The abstention from wrong speech does not occur without the following three requisites in tandem: understanding of wrong and right speech; mindfulness before giving a speech and while delivering it; energy or effort to abstain from a wrong speech and to develop a right speech. I have a great sutta quote to share with you. MN 78 Samana-Mundika Sutta: 'Now what are unskillful habits? Unskillful bodily actions, unskillful verbal actions, evil means of livelihood....What is the cause of unskillful habits?...The mind....Which mind?-for the mind has many modes and permutations...Any mind with passion, aversion or delusion: That is the cause of unskillful habits. Now where do unskillful habits cease without remainder?...There is the case where a monk abandons wrong bodily conduct and develops right bodily conduct, abandons wrong verbal conduct and develops right verbal conduct, abandons wrong livelihood and maintains his life with right livelihood. This is where unskillful habits cease without remainder. And what sort of practice is the practice leading to the cessation of unskillful habits? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen...for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen...for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development and culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. This sort of practice is the practice leading to the cessation of unskillful habits. ............ Thanks. Tep == #82968 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:18 am Subject: Magha Puja moellerdieter Hi all, just to remember for tomorrow (source : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/uposatha.html ) Magha Puja (usually in February) This day, sometimes called "Sangha Day," commemorates the spontaneous assembly of 1,250 arahants in the Buddha's presence. One thousand of the gathered monks had previously achieved Awakening upon hearing the Buddha's delivery of the Fire Sermon; the remaining 250 were followers of the elder monks Ven. Moggallana and Ven. Sariputta. To mark this auspicious gathering, the Buddha delivered the Ovada-Patimokkha Gatha, a summary of the main points of the Dhamma, which the Buddha gave to the assembly before sending them out to proclaim the doctrine. [Suggested reading: "Dhamma for Everyone" by Ajaan Lee.] with Metta Dieter #82969 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:49 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (6) .. Conditioning Force .. dhammanusara Dear Han,- I have just one question for Patthhana (6). You wrote: >Han: The 24 conditions are in fact the conditioning force of the conditions (paccaya satti). Does that mean the 24 conditions are "the conditioning forces" that also drive themselves? Is 'force' here something like a driver that moves the driven? Example: Motor drives a pump. Or are they like foods that support growth? Thanks. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear All, > > Before we take up the 24 conditions, one by one, there > are a few things which we should know. > #82970 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Conditioning Force .. nilovg Hi Tep, May I butt in? Op 20-feb-2008, om 19:49 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > >Han: The 24 conditions are in fact the conditioning force > of the conditions (paccaya satti). > > Does that mean the 24 conditions are "the conditioning forces" that > also > drive themselves? Is 'force' here something like a driver that > moves the > driven? Example: Motor drives a pump. Or are they like foods that > support growth? ------- N: Take kamma-condition. Kamma, a deed done long ago has fallen away, but it is accumulated and can later on produce result. It is the force of kamma-condition that is operating, it produces result later on. But it is explained that each of the cdhammas that is the condition for another dhamma does so because of its force. Visible object is object condition for the citta that experiences it. It operates by its force of object-condition. Nina. #82971 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:42 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (6) .. Two-way Conditioning Force .. dhammanusara Dear Nina, - Please butt in anytime, all the time, whenever you want. You wrote: > Take kamma-condition. Kamma, a deed done long ago has fallen away, > but it is accumulated and can later on produce result. It is the > force of kamma-condition that is operating, it produces result later on. > But it is explained that each of the dhammas that is the condition > for another dhamma does so because of its force. Visible object is > object condition for the citta that experiences it. It operates by > its force of object-condition. > Nina. I see. So the citta that experiences an object must also have a "force of citta-condition" that affects the object! An example : vinnana conditions namarupa; namaruupa conditions vinnana. Does that make sense? Thanks. Tep === #82972 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:05 am Subject: Re: Right Speech walterhorn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@... wrote: > > On Right Speech > > It seems that I continue to receive some very confrontational and even > offensive messages from people who are incensed that I would criticize their > unflawed, perfect and righteous tradition. Please understand I have no intention to > belabor debate. > > When I criticize various traditions and religions (including Theravadan > Buddhism) for assumptions, beliefs or practices that I find unproductive for the > greater good, or the journey to nibbana, I invariably encounter some criticism. > The typical argument is based upon invoking the Noble Eight Fold Path, by > questioning whether my criticism is a violation of Right Speech (samma-vaca). > A couple thoughts: I am a very recent subscriber, and am the farthest thing possible from an expert on any matter discussed on this board, but if it's OK, I'll tentatively suggest that the sarcasm evident in such expressions as this: "from people who are incensed that I would criticize their unflawed, perfect and righteous tradition" may be the cause of the accusations of violating this or that principle of Right Speech. There also seems apparent something that might be viewed as a strong desire to be seen as correct. That too, may be seen as a failure of some sort. Believe me, I'm the last person to criticize! I have what I take to be a similar need myself, and I'll bet I display it more often (pretty much all the time, to be honest) but I don't see myself as a very strong student of these matters, so maybe I can be forgiven more easily?... Best, W #82973 From: "J Trasvin" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Different accumulations....E-card from Bangkok 5 trasvin Dear Sarah, Magha Puja greetings. Thank you very much for all your e-card from Bangkok. Best regards, Jiw #82974 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 2/19/2008 12:33:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Question: Is the above definition of all forms in the single group (ekka-matika) [503] limited to mahabhuta-ruupa in a body(kaya)-- because they are overwhelmed by ageing ? How does the visible form that is a "color" [521] fit into the "all forms" in [503]? They do not seem compatible. ================================ The everyday talk of aging pertains to that aggregation called the body (and to other aggreagtions), but it seems to me true also that every rupa ages. From the perspective that a rupa lasts zero-time, of course, that would be false, but from my perspective, a rupa is a type of object/content of consciousness, and the commentaries speak of rupa lasting through a process of up to 17 differing mind states. (I don't know if that is in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, or just the commentaries). Also, is there not, according to the commentaries, a rising stage followed by a leveling-off stage followed by a stage of decline? At each moment throughout the three stages, there is change that brings the rupa ever closer to cessation (or "death") - so, is not the rupa aging from the first moment of it's arising, most clearly in the final stage of decline? With metta, Howard #82975 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani dhammanusara Hi Howard (Nina, Scott), Thank you very much for bringing up that question for discussion, before we move on to another post (that is scheduled for this weekend). >Howard: The everyday talk of aging pertains to that aggregation called the body (and to other aggreagtions), but it seems to me true also that every rupa ages. From the perspective that a rupa lasts zero-time, of course, that would be false, ... T: I was thinking of a visible ruupa that is an ultimate reality, not yet contaminated by "defining and thinking" as Nina had pointed out earlier. > >N: Shape and size are not seen, they are perceived through the mind- door. When you notice the shape and form there is already defining and thinking on account of what was seen. Thus, visisble object is only colour, this impinges on the eye-sense which is also aayatana. Here ruupaayatana stands for visible object. Afterwards in the text the aayatanas of sound etc. are dealt with. ....................... >Howard: .. but from my perspective, a rupa is a type of object/content of consciousness, and the commentaries speak of rupa lasting through a process of up to 17 differing mind states. (I don't know if that is in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, or just the commentaries). T: A ruupa in the Abhidhamma language is microscopic in comparison to the kind of macroscopic ruupa that is "seen" as a body of a person or a visible object (that is a mental formation due to "thinking and defining" like Nina said earlier). I think even the ruupa that lasts 17 mindstates like you said is too miroscopic to fit the description found in the suttas. For example, in MN 138 the visible form is a microscopic ruupa, not "colors" that arise and pass away rapidly at the moment of eye-consciousness. MN 138: "And how is consciousness said not to be externally scattered & diffused? There is the case where a form is seen with the eye, and consciousness does not follow the drift of the theme of the form, is not tied to... chained to... fettered, or joined to the attraction of the theme of the form: Consciousness is said not to be externally scattered & diffused". T: Clearly to me, the consciousness above is not an eye-consciousness; I would rather call it ' mind' (mano vinnana?). ................... >Howard: Also, is there not, according to the commentaries, a rising stage followed by a leveling-off stage followed by a stage of decline? At each moment throughout the three stages, there is change that brings the rupa ever closer to cessation (or "death") - so, is not the rupa aging from the first moment of it's arising, most clearly in the final stage of decline? T: I have no problem with that model, Howard. But Nina and Scott most likely think differently. Regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 2/19/2008 12:33:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > tepsastri@... writes: > > Question: Is the above definition of all forms in the single group > (ekka-matika) [503] limited to mahabhuta-ruupa in a body(kaya)-- > because they are overwhelmed by ageing ? How does the visible form > that is a "color" [521] fit into the "all forms" in [503]? They do > not seem compatible. > ================================ #82976 From: steven crosby Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Right Speech crosby_s Nina:One can listen, but it is not necessary to pay much attention to their stories. What is heard is only sound, and after hearing kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise, very fast. They cannot be manipulated. And if one still engages in wrong speech it is a good reminder that we have accumulated so many defilements during countless lives. Best is to have more understanding also of one's akusala, as a conditioned dhamma. Nina. Steven:Thank you Nina for your help in these questions.I dont have to pay attention to their wrong speech do i !.Sometimes i swear out of bad habit that i have formed over the years, but when you hear it day in day out by others i find it hard to stop but i keep trying to stop, it just comes involuntarily sometimes(when anger arises).I am learning to form more kusala and to let the akusala pass away, is this a good understanding?I am finding Buddhism a very good overcoming evil or yin yang way of thinking, am i right in saying this.I love it, it's pure and a beautiful way of being. With Metta, Steven. #82977 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:12 pm Subject: Re: Right Speech kenhowardau Hi Walter, Thanks for a very good message. As I understand it I agree with everything you wrote, but I was puzzled as to who you might have been talking to. It seems you have been delving way back into the archives. That is fine, of course, and I wish people would do it more often. Just don't expect a reply from macdoz1, he hasn't been around in years. :-) Ken H #82978 From: "crosby_s" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:25 pm Subject: Samseva: 'companionship'. crosby_s From UrbanDharma.org samseva: 'companionship'. (1) "Through companionship with bad men (asappurisa-s.) comes listening to bad advice, thereby unwise reflection, thereby inattention and mental confusion, thereby lack of sense-control, thereby 3-fold bad conduct in bodily action, speech and mind, thereby the 5 hindrances (nívarana, q.v.), thereby craving for existence. (2) Through companionship with good men (sappurisa-s. ) comes listening to good advice, thereby faith, thereby wise reflection, thereby mindfulness and clarity of consciousness, thereby sense-control, thereby 3-fold good conduct, thereby the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthána, q.v ), thereby the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.), thereby liberation through wisdom (paññá-vimutti, q.v.)." Cf. A. X 62. I am liking this teaching of samseva, so true of how we are when we have different types of companionship.One reason i came here to DSG was to learn and to have good samseva.Any thoughts on this subject appreciated. With Metta, Steven. #82979 From: "crosby_s" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani crosby_s Is this discussion for advanced beginners because i find this discussion very hard to understand. With Metta, Steven. #82980 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:38 pm Subject: Re: Samseva: 'companionship'. kenhowardau Hi Steven, While agreeing with you 100% on the subject of good companionship, I wonder if you have learnt the Abhidhamma teaching of absolute reality. According to it, there are only fleeting conditioned dhammas all of which are devoid of a person or personality or anything pertaining thereto. In the ultimate, Abhidhamma, sense, therefore, our best companion is not a person. It is the fleeting conditioned dhamma known as panna. Also good company are any of the other kusala dhammas - alobha, adosa, virati, etc. But panna (right understanding of paramattha dhammas) is the one that leads the way to the end of suffering. Ken H #82981 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Conditioning Force .. TGrand458@... In a message dated 2/20/2008 11:50:22 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Does that mean the 24 conditions are "the conditioning forces" that also drive themselves? Is 'force' here something like a driver that moves the driven? Example: Motor drives a pump. Or are they like foods that support growth? Thanks. Tep ........................................ Hi Tep Conditions are dynamic and ever changing. Hence -- impermanence. If we consider the Four Great Elements, they are always "out of balance" in the sense that whatever state is dominant, is going to be affected and altered by the other three. Hence -- dynamics. Mentality is an outgrowth of these dynamics as mentality and physicality move in mutual relationship with each other. Whatever arises is a composite of this dynamic phenomena and it is the interaction of phenomena that constitute what phenomena are and what phenomena do. Interaction determines experiences, impermanence, conditionality, nonself, and whatever other truth one can determine. I know some will want to know what book this comes from...but it comes from mindful observation, not a book. There are certainly plenty of clues in the Suttas, but the cause for impermanence is not spoken of directly. Abhidhamma also does not provide real reasons, but just flat and shallow explanations when it comes to the cause for impermanence. In Abhidhamma... "impermanence just is" and one would certainly be confused if trying to find out the cause for impermanence by relying solely on that source. The dynamics of the 24 conditions underly those conditions, and the 24 conditions "themselves" are explanations of other phenomena. The Abhidhamma system explains a lot of things, but impermanence or the fundamental dynamics of conditionality is not among them. TG #82982 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet, Solitude, Seclusion Now? E-card from Bangkok 3 glenjohnann Hello Nina et al I started thinking about Hiri (shame) when reading the following: > I liked this example: something, such as a pen, kusala or akusala? Any consideration or > kindness? If it's akusala , no shame, the opposite of hiri- detachemnt > from akusala. Hiri (shame) - very,very little , not firm enough. > Develops > with more understanding.> > So much daily life. We ask time and again for some little thing, but > thoughtlessly. And there is lack of shame when the citta is akusala, > even of a slight degree. > Good to learn more on sibatta paraamaasa. Vis. text now is about it. How close hiri and dosa seem - in the sense that when one recognizes akusala one can feel worried/badly about it - because of lack of understanding. If one feels shame - I can only assume that this must be different (feel different) from dosa. But does pleasant or unpleasant feeling arise with hiri? How can one distinguish between any dosa that arises and hiri? This may seem like a very strange question - however, I am interested in your thoughts? Ann #82983 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani nilovg Dear Steven, Op 21-feb-2008, om 2:31 heeft crosby_s het volgende geschreven: > Is this discussion for advanced beginners because i find this > discussion very hard to understand. -------- N: Hopefully for everybody. But do ask about any term you find puzzling. Nina. #82984 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:48 pm Subject: Re: Right Speech walterhorn Thanks for the welcome, Ken. You're right! I realized after I'd posted that I was responding to a message from....2004! I guess that happens when posts are arranged by topic. Oops. W #82985 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 1, no 2. rameshat27 Venerable Neena, N:- At the weekend people bring flowers to be placed in front of the relics of the Buddha. They were so kind to hand them to me, so that I had many times an opportunity to kneel in front of the relics and pay respect. When Acharn Sujin also knelt next to me to pay respect, I had an opportunity to pay respect to her at her feet. With this gesture I expressed respect and gratefulness for learning through her to develop understanding of the Dhamma. R:- Your dedication and devotion to dhamma oriented people is outstanding. I also want to expressed respect and gratefulness for learning Abhidhamma from your book, which I had received in last year as a Free Gift. It helps me to develop understanding of the Further Dhamma very well. with metta --------------- ramesh ---------------- #82986 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' rameshat27 Venerable Neena, Thanks for the meaning of Naya, Nayati and Netti. metta --------- ramesh ----------- #82987 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:24 am Subject: Re: Right Speech kenhowardau Hi Walter, > < > You're right! I realized after I'd posted that I was responding to a > message from....2004! I guess that happens when posts are arranged by > topic. Oops. > Ah, that would explain it. Coincidentally, I tried that option (of arranging by topic) just recently after Sarah mentioned it. But I got into all sorts of trouble and quickly put things back the way they were - chronologically. Ken H #82988 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:43 am Subject: Re: Q. re: [dsg] Patthaana (7) hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: I think we have to distinguish between object-condition and dependence-condition, where the physical base (eyesense) is dependence-condition for seeing. Object-condition: any nama or rupa that is object of citta is related to that citta by object-condition, by being its object. Han: Yes, we have to be careful whenever we see the word “object.” There are many of them: Object condition, object predominance of Predominance condition, base-object-prenascence dependence of Dependence condition, object decisive support of Decisive condition, object prenascence of Prenascence condition. Of course, we will come to these details later on. At the moment we are only at the preliminaries. The first condition is yet to start. -------------------- > Nina: what is this mindgroup? Han: Your question was from the following that I had written. *E. Mind-and-Matter for Mind Group* It was my poor English putting the word, ‘Group’ at the wrong place. Please read it as follows: *Group E: Mind-and-Matter for Mind* Respectfully, Han #82989 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Beginner's Abhidhamma Discussion : Dhammasangani nilovg Hi Howard (and Tep), your insisting questions are good. Op 21-feb-2008, om 0:21 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Question: Is the above definition of all forms in the single group > (ekka-matika) [503] limited to mahabhuta-ruupa in a body(kaya)-- > because they are overwhelmed by ageing ? How does the visible form > that is a "color" [521] fit into the "all forms" in [503]? They do > not seem compatible. > ================================ > The everyday talk of aging pertains to that aggregation called the > body > (and to other aggreations), but it seems to me true also that every > rupa > ages. --------- N: The whole section pertains to all ruupas, here translated as form which is misleading. All ruupas are included in ruupakkhandha. ------- > H: From the perspective that a rupa lasts zero-time, of course, > that would be > false, but from my perspective, a rupa is a type of object/content of > consciousness, and the commentaries speak of rupa lasting through a > process of up > to 17 differing mind states. (I don't know if that is in the > Abhidhamma > Pitaka, or just the commentaries). ------ N: Correct, in the Co. -------- > H: Also, is there not, according to the > commentaries, a rising stage followed by a leveling-off stage > followed by a stage of > decline? At each moment throughout the three stages, there is > change that brings > the rupa ever closer to cessation (or "death") - so, is not the > rupa aging > from the first moment of it's arising, most clearly in the final > stage of > decline? -------- N: Ruupa has an arising moment, moments of subsisting and the moment of cessation. The Dhammasangaùi (§ 596) incorporates in the list of the twentyeight kinds of rúpa not only rúpas with their own distinct nature but also qualities of rúpa and characteristics of rúpa. It mentions four different rúpas which are characteristics of rúpa, lakkhana rúpas (lakkhana means characteristic). These four characteristics inherent in all sabhåva rúpas are the following: arising or origination (upacaya) continuity or development (santati) decay or ageing (jaratå) falling away or impermanence (aniccatå) Rúpas do not arise singly, they arise in different groups (kalåpas). The groups of rúpa that arise fall away but they do not fall away as rapidly as citta. Rúpa lasts as long as the duration of seventeen moments of citta arising and falling away, succeeding one another. Thus, after the arising of rúpa there are moments of its presence, namely, continuity or development. Decay, jaratå rúpa, is the characteristic indicating the moment close to its falling away and impermanence, aniccatå rúpa, is the characteristic indicating the moment of its falling away. Thus, though the number of seventeen moments is not menitoned here, the general principle is indicated of the moments of arising, subsisting and falling away. ---------- Tep writes: I think even the ruupa that lasts 17 mindstates like you said is too miroscopic to fit the description found in the suttas. For example, in MN 138 the visible form is a microscopic ruupa, not "colors" that arise and pass away rapidly at the moment of eye-consciousness. ------- N: Seeing sees colour, but after seeing has fallen away colour still subsists and can be experienced by the other cittas in that process, including the javanacittas, akusala cittas or kusala cittas. --------- T: MN 138: "And how is consciousness said not to be externally scattered & diffused? There is the case where a form is seen with the eye, and consciousness does not follow the drift of the theme of the form, is not tied to... chained to... fettered, or joined to the attraction of the theme of the form: Consciousness is said not to be externally scattered & diffused". T: Clearly to me, the consciousness above is not an eye-consciousness; I would rather call it ' mind' (mano vinnana?). ................... N: Right, in the sutta cittas are not described from moment to moment. This refers to kusala cittas with understanding. These are not infatuated with visible object. --------- N: Some remarks: the order of the following in the original list given by Scott is meaningful: apparent (uppanna.m), cognizable by the six modes of cognition (chahi vi~n~naa.nehi vi~n~neya.m), impermanent (annica.m), subject to decay (jaraabhibhuuta.m). ------ Uppanna.m: arisen or present. Thus, here is reference to the present rupa. The present rupa is cognized. I quote the Expositor to this part (p. 400) to show that the Abhidhamma is not abstract, that it deals with this very moment. <'Arisen (uppanna.m) by means of the six modes of [sense-]cognition' means that only matter as now present should be understood by means of all the six modes of cognition. That is fixed by the cognition of the five senses, but these cognitions do not cognize the past or the future; only sense-mind-cognition [N: through the mind-door] does that; it falls into the stream of the fivefold cognition and goes along with it. It is impermanent in that it becomes and perishes; it is overpowered by old age of its having such nature; or, because in the material body old age is evident, therefore it is said to be 'overpowered by old age.'> The stages of insight have to be developed so that impermanence, arising and falling away of nama and rupa can be realized. Nina. #82990 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:11 am Subject: Re: Q. re: [dsg] Patthaana (7) nilovg Dear Han, thank you for your post. You want to indicate: nama and rupa are a condition for nama. But as you say, details will follow. Nina. Op 21-feb-2008, om 10:43 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > *Group E: Mind-and-Matter for Mind* #82991 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quiet, Solitude, Seclusion Now? E-card from Bangkok 3 nilovg Dear Ann, Op 21-feb-2008, om 6:17 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > How close hiri and dosa seem - in the sense that when one recognizes > akusala one can feel worried/badly about it - because of lack of > understanding. If one feels shame - I can only assume that this must > be different (feel different) from dosa. But does pleasant or > unpleasant feeling arise with hiri? -------- N:Hiri is different from shame as we use it in conventional langugae. It is a sobhana cetasika that assists kusala citta. It sees the disadvantage of akusala, that is why the expression abhors akusala is also used. It can accompany kusala citta with happy feeling or indifferent feeling, it can accompany kusala citta with pa~n~naa or without it. ----------- > A: How can one distinguish between any dosa that arises and hiri? > This may seem like a very strange question - however, I am > interested in your thoughts? ------ N: When kusala citta arises it is accompanied by hiri and also by calm. Each kusala citta is calm. The citta with dosa is akusala citta. There is no calm with dosa, no peacefulness but disturbance. ------ Nina. #82992 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Patthaana (6) .. Two-way Conditioning Force .. nilovg Hi Tep, Op 20-feb-2008, om 20:42 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Visible object is > > object condition for the citta that experiences it. It operates by > > its force of object-condition. > > Nina. > > I see. So the citta that experiences an object must also have a > "force of > citta-condition" that affects the object! An example : vinnana > conditions > namarupa; namaruupa conditions vinnana. Does that make sense? ------- N: There is no force of citta-condition affecting the object. Seeing does not affect colour at all. But colour is object-condition for seeing. The passage you mention has to do with other types of conditions. We should distinguish the method of D.O. from the Patthaana, although the conditions mentioned in the Patthaana are applied when considering the D.O. Rebirth-consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) conditions naama, here the conascent cetasikas by conascence-condition and mutuality-condition. It also conditions the kamma-produced ruupa arising at the same time by conascence-condition. The force here is conascence. Nina. #82993 From: han tun Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:41 am Subject: Re: Q. re: [dsg] Patthaana (7) hantun1 Dear Nina, Whatever I write they are from book references, except in a few places where I indicated that this was my idea or my opinion. You can find naama and ruupa as conditions for naama on page 308 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma. In that table, under Object condition, you will find that the conditioning states are 89 cittas, 52 cetasikas, 28 ruupas, Nibbaana and concepts. The conditioned states are 89 cittas and 52 cetasikas. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > thank you for your post. > You want to indicate: nama and rupa are a condition > for nama. But as > you say, details will follow. > Nina. #82994 From: "Leo" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] noble truth leoaive hi i know that if you eat soup, which taste good, does not bring unsatisfactory. spoon is not the case. i do not want to be negative, so i see good things too. with metta leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Leo - > > In a message dated 2/19/2008 4:57:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > leoaive@... writes: > > hi > but happiness of jhanas is not dukka. > > > ============================== > The happiness of jhanas is unsatisfactory (dukkha), because it does not > last. Of course that happiness isn't suffering (i.e., mental pain) - it is > quite the opposite. But when it is said that a phenomenon other than mental > pain itself is dukkha, what is meant is that it is unsatisfactory, and that is > indeed the case for all conditions, including the happiness of jhanas. No > conditioned dhammas are sources of lasting satisfaction; they are all > unsatisfactory, which is exactly what is meant by "Sabbe sankhara dukkha." <.....> #82995 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Different accumulations....E-card from Bangkok 5 sarahprocter... Dear Jiw, Magha Puja greetings to you and all too. I'm so glad to know that you're reading the messages. Thank you for letting me know. I know that A.Sujin and friends went to Chengmai fairly recently for (Thai) discussions with your group. Were there any points or topics or impressions you particularly recall? Ven Pannabahulo came down from Chengmai to join our English discussions. He said his friend David had visited Ajahn at lunch time while she was with you and was very impressed by her words and this led to further Abhidhamma discussions between him, Ven P and another bhikkhu in Chengmai. You may also recall something about it? Metta, Sarah --- J Trasvin wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Magha Puja greetings. Thank you very much for all your e-card from > Bangkok. #82996 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Speech nilovg Dear Steven, Op 21-feb-2008, om 2:08 heeft steven crosby het volgende geschreven: > Sometimes i swear out of bad habit that i have formed over the > years, but when you hear it day in day out by others i find it hard > to stop but i keep trying to stop, it just comes involuntarily > sometimes(when anger arises). ------- N: My husband, Lodewijk, has the same habit, but he realizes it. It is so much accumulated, and the words come out before he knows. We can learn that accumulations are very tenacious. He remembers uposatha day: trying not to curse. I tell him: it is full moon. -------- > S: I am learning to form more kusala and to let the akusala pass > away, is this a good understanding?I am finding Buddhism a very > good overcoming evil or yin yang way of thinking, am i right in > saying this.I love it, it's pure and a beautiful way of being. ------- N: I do not know about ying yang, but have heard the terms. Knowing what is kusala and what is akusala and more details about these helps us to have more understanding of our life. It is understanding above all that is the condition for the elimination of alkusala. But it is a gradual process. Unlearning and learning takes time, perhaps many lives. Nina. #82997 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:56 am Subject: Re: Q. re: [dsg] Patthaana (7) nilovg Dear Han, Op 21-feb-2008, om 11:41 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > under Object condition, you will find > that the conditioning states are 89 cittas, 52 > cetasikas, 28 ruupas, Nibbaana and concepts. The > conditioned states are 89 cittas and 52 cetasikas. ------- N: Here we see that there is nothing that cannot be object-condition for citta and cetasikas. Paramattha dhammas, and concepts. Nina. #82998 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] noble truth nilovg Dear Leo, Op 21-feb-2008, om 10:54 heeft Leo het volgende geschreven: > i know that if you eat soup, which taste good, does not bring > unsatisfactory. spoon is not the case. > i do not want to be negative, so i see good things too. ------ N: It may seem negative to you that conditioned dhammas are unsatisfactory. But the deeper meaning of dukkha concerns the arising and falling away of realities. The tasting and the flavour arise and fall away, they cannot last. Understanding dukkha cannot be negative. The truth can be understood with calm and even with joy. Nina. #82999 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:02 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII,239-241 Intro: In the following sections it is explained that craving, tanhaa, conditions clinging, upaadaana, which is actually strong grasping. Clinging is classified as fourfold: clinging to sense objects, to views, to wrong practice and to self doctrine. ---------- [(ix) Clinging] Text Vis. 239. As regards the clause 'With craving as condition, clinging': Four clingings need to be explained (1) As to analysis of meaning, (2) As to brief and full account Of states, (3) and also as to order. Text Vis. 240: Herein, this is the explanation: firstly, there are these four kinds of clinging here, namely, sense-desire clinging, [false-] view clinging, rite-and-ritual clinging, and self-doctrine clinging. ***** Text Vis. 241: 1. The 'analysis of meaning' is this: it clings to the kind of sense-desire called sense-desire's physical object, thus it is sense- desire clinging. Also, it is sense-desire and it is clinging, thus it is sense-desire clinging. ------- N: Kaama, sensuousness, refers to vatthu-kaama, the bases (vatthu) or objects of sense-desire, as well as to kilesa-kaama, the defilement of sense desire. The Tiika elaborates on this, stating that the bases of sense-desire are the strands of sense-desire (kaama gu.na) which are the five sense objects, beginning with visible object. It states as to clinging that one has a strong delight in these objects. As to the defilement of sense-desire, the Tiika states that its effect is action (kattusaadhana). Thus, it leads to kamma. -------- Text Vis.: Clinging (upaadaana) is firm grasping; for here the prefix 'upa' has the sense of firmness, as in 'upaayaasa' (great misery--see par. 48) and 'upaku.t.tha' (great pox), and so on. Likewise, it is [false] view, thus it is [false-] view clinging; or, it clings to [false] view, thus it is [false-] view clinging; for in [the case of the false view] 'The world and self are eternal' (D.i, 14), etc., it is the latter kind of view that clings to the former. -------- N: Instead of the English: "The world and self are eternal”, the Pali text begins with eternal: eternal are the self and the world (sassato attaa ca loko ca). This order is different from the English translation. In order to understand the Vis. Text and the Tiika, we have to keep the order of the Pali text. It is stated: ’it is the latter kind of view that clings to the former.’ The view of eternalism is one view, and the view of self and the world is another view. One clings with the idea of self (the latter view) to the (former or first mentioned) view of eternalism. The Tiika explains that the latter (the idea of self) clings to the former view (eternalism), thinking, ‘I am eternal’. It is said that it clings, because it firmly grasps. The Tiika also states that there is the view of ‘there is no almsgiving’, etc. By this view kamma and vipaaka are denied. --------- Text Vis.: Likewise, it clings to rite and ritual, thus it is rite- and-ritual clinging; also, it is rite and ritual and it is clinging, thus it is rite-and-ritual clinging; for ox asceticism, ox vows, etc., (see M.i,387f.) are themselves kinds of clinging, too, because of the misinterpretation (insistence) that purification comes about in this way. --------- N: The Tiika explains that by rite-and-ritual clinging one takes to the wrong Path. One undertakes siila of an ox: one eats while going and releases oneself while standing. This is an observance which is the conduct of an ox. He adheres to the wrong Path, taking it for the right Path. -------- Text Vis.: Likewise, they indoctrinate by means of that, thus it is doctrine; they cling by means of that, thus that is clinging. What do they indoctrinate with? What do they cling to? Self. The clinging to doctrines of self is self-doctrine clinging. Or by means of that they cling to a self that is a mere doctrine of self; thus that is self- doctrine clinging. This, firstly, is the 'analysis of meaning'. ------------------------- N: The Tiika explains that clinging to doctrines of self is different from the second kind of clinging, false view clinging that the self and the world are eternal. In Vis. 243 it is explained that self doctrine view is sakkaaya di.t.thi, personality belief. One identifies the self with each of the five khandhas, or sees the self as their possessor, container or inner nucleus. -------- Conclusion: In this section it has been stressed that clinging is firm grasping. We are reminded that clinging to sense desires and to wrong view and wrong practice is very tenacious. It is a link in the Dependent Origination. It leads to kamma-bhava, namely kamma leading to rebirth. The proximate cause of lobha, in the definition given in the Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 162, is: "seeing enjoyment in things that lead to bondage. Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking (beings) with it to states of loss, as a swift-flowing river does to the great ocean.” The Tiika to this text explains ‘enjoyment’ here as assaada di.t.thi, wrong view associated with enjoyment. As we read in Vis. XIV, 91: “When a man is happy and content in placing wrong view foremost of the sort beginning 'There is no danger in sense desires' (M.i,307)...” The Co. to the Book of Analysis, the ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (Ch 17, 2453) explains that assaada di.t.thi is eternity view, (sassatadi.t.thi). In this case he thinks that sense desires and pleasant objects last, he does not realize that they arise and fall away and are thus dukkha, unsatisfactory. When one does not see the danger of clinging it is accumulated all the time. There are conditions for its arising again and again, and thus the cycle of birth and death will continue. **** Nina.