#85200 From: "connie" Date: Thu May 1, 2008 5:58 am Subject: Perfections Corner (139) nichiconn Dear Friends, Nina's ch.2 continues: If one develops kusala without expecting any result for oneself, the result will be in conformity with the kusala one performed. Someone may speak well, expressing himself with beautiful words, but when he speaks he should think of the well-being of the listener, he should know whether the listener will be ill at ease or happy. If there is sati-sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa) he will refrain from speech that causes the listener to be uncomfortable, even though he does not speak an untruth. If satisampaja~n~na arises it will cause one to speak in a beneficial, agreeable way. If someone does not expect any result for himself, his kusala will bring its result, as the Buddha explained. We read further on in the Commentary: "Through his freedom from ill-will he gains a pleasant appearance. He is esteemed by others, and because he delights in the welfare of beings, he automatically inspires their confidence. He becomes lofty in character, abides in loving-kindness, and acquires great influence and power. "Through his freedom from wrong view he gains good companions. Even if he is threatened with a sharp sword, he will not perform an evil deed. Because he holds to the ownership of kamma, he does not believe in superstitious omens. His faith in the true Dhamma is established and firmly rooted. He has faith in the enlightenment of the Tathagatas, and no more delights in the diversity of outside creeds than a royal swan delights in a dung heap." Here we see the refinement of the citta that is averse from wrong view. One should not associate with people who have wrong view. People who do not understand which cause brings which effect, may cling to superstitious omens. They may listen to the Dhamma and have confidence in it, but if they are not firmly established in their confidence in the true Dhamma they may still be carried away by superstitious believes and lack understanding of cause and effect. .. to be continued, connie #85201 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 1, 2008 6:30 am Subject: Metta, Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Question: I remember that when I was a child my father made me recite texts. I could recite many texts but I did not understand their meaning. It is the same in the case of reciting texts about mettå. The monks are chanting texts each day, in the morning and in the afternoon, and now I wonder what the use is of reciting. Khun Sujin: They may recite that the five khandhas are impermanent or anattå. However, the aim of reciting these words is to be reminded to consider the characteristics of the five khandhas which are appearing now and to know them as impermanent. Question: That is true, reciting can be a reminder. When I recite, “May Mr. X. be happy”, I do that in order that there can be mettå for Mr. X. later on. Khun Sujin: We read in the Visuddhimagga (Chapter IX, 1, 2) about the development of mettå from the beginning: To start with, he should review and try to understand the danger in hate and the advantage in patience. Why? Because hate has to be abandoned and patience attained in the development of this meditation subject and because he cannot abandon unseen dangers and attain unknown advantages. It is not said that people should recite texts but they should know the right cause which brings the appropriate result. The “Path of Purification” (Visuddhimagga IX, 4) shows the danger of hate and the benefit of patience. If one really understands this there are, when dosa has arisen, conditions for sati-sampajañña to be aware of it immediately and to see the danger of dosa at that moment. The Visuddhimagga explains that people who begin with the development of mettå as a meditation subject of calm are advised not to develop it towards four kinds of people: a person they dislike, a dearly loved friend, a neutral person and a hostile person. Moreover, mettå should not be developed towards the opposite sex and it cannot be developed towards a dead person. It is difficult to develop mettå to the kinds of people who were just mentioned. In the beginning one is not yet ready to do that; defilements such as anger or attachment are likely to arise on account of those kinds of people. Mettå cannot be developed towards a dead person, because he is no longer the person he was before. The dying-consciousness of this life is succeeded immediately by the rebirth-consciousness of the next life and then there is a different being. ******* Nina. #85202 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Thu May 1, 2008 6:53 am Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 3. walterhorn Hi, Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom < > > Khun Sujin: They may recite that the five khandhas are impermanent or > anattå. However, the aim of reciting these words is to be reminded to > consider the characteristics of the five khandhas which are appearing > now and to know them as impermanent. > > Question: That is true, reciting can be a reminder. When I recite, > "May Mr. > X. be happy", I do that in order that there can be mettå for Mr. X. > later on. That's what I've been trying to say, I think. > Khun Sujin: We read in the Visuddhimagga (Chapter IX, 1, 2) about the > development of mettå from the beginning: > > To start with, he should review and try to understand the danger in > hate and > the advantage in patience. Why? Because hate has to be abandoned and > patience attained in the development of this meditation subject and > because > he cannot abandon unseen dangers and attain unknown advantages. > > It is not said that people should recite texts but they should know > the right > cause which brings the appropriate result. Yes, I don't think anyone should suggest that recitation is an end in itself. Best, Walto #85203 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 1, 2008 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta, Ch 3, no 3. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/1/2008 9:31:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: The Visuddhimagga explains that people who begin with the development of mettå as a meditation subject of calm are advised not to develop it towards four kinds of people: a person they dislike, a dearly loved friend, a neutral person and a hostile person. Moreover, mettå should not be developed towards the opposite sex and it cannot be developed towards a dead person. It is difficult to develop mettå to the kinds of people who were just mentioned. In the beginning one is not yet ready to do that; defilements such as anger or attachment are likely to arise on account of those kinds of people. ================================== I'm glad that this is specifically pertaining to those *beginning* with metta bhavana. In general, metta is universal, unselective good will, and, at least eventually, it should apply to all sentient beings. As an example, with regard to disliked people, there is the following sutta: _____________________________________________ AN 5.161 Aghatavinaya Sutta Subduing Hatred (1) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu Alternate translation: _Ñanamoli_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.161.nymo.html) _Thanissaro_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.161.than.html) PTS: A iii 185 ____________________________________ Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. ____________________________________ Copyright © 1998 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1998 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. Other formats: (http://www.suttareadings.net/audio/index.html#an05.161) ____________________________________ "There are these five ways of subduing hatred by which, when hatred arises in a monk, he should wipe it out completely. Which five? "When one gives birth to hatred for an individual, one should develop good will for that individual. Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued. "When one gives birth to hatred for an individual, one should develop compassion for that individual. Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued. "When one gives birth to hatred for an individual, one should develop equanimity toward that individual. Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued. "When one gives birth to hatred for an individual, one should pay him no mind & pay him no attention. Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued. "When one gives birth to hatred for an individual, one should direct one's thoughts to the fact of his being the product of his actions: 'This venerable one is the doer of his actions, heir to his actions, born of his actions, related by his actions, and has his actions as his arbitrator. Whatever action he does, for good or for evil, to that will he fall heir.' Thus the hatred for that individual should be subdued. "These are five ways of subduing hatred by which, when hatred arises in a monk, he should wipe it out completely." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #85204 From: "connie" Date: Thu May 1, 2008 7:56 am Subject: Re: What I heard, transcription of tape, to Han nichiconn Dear Han, H: I take atta as considering the five aggregates are I or Han. To this category it may be added that it is I who do this or that. c: B.C. Law, in "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa", after some discussion (beginning on p.147) about then goes on (pp156-7) to quote (and I STRESS): <<"Name has a two-fold aspect-to wit, (1) name as determined by convention or usage and (2) name in its ultimate meaning, (1) In saying 'person' WE GIVE A NAME NOT TO THE AGGREGATES (of a living organism) BUT TO OUR IDEA corresponding to the form or appearance presented by those aggregates- And this idea or concept of an appearance does not exist objectively (independently of mind). Hence in this 'name' neither the meaning nor the name itself has any real existence. Yet the great majority perceive and imagine, when they recognise the name that there actually is what is named self or soul or entity or person. And for this reason we term name 'conventional' when it is merely determined as a designation by popular usage. But when not resting upon mere customary usage, people consider those ultimates, the aggregates, as self, soul, entity, person, then they exceed the scope of customary usage." (2) "IN NAME, UNDER ITS ULTIMATE ASPECT WE ARE CONSIDERING ULTIMATE PHENOMENA WHICH ARE ENTIRELY WITHOUT EXTERNAL APPEARANCE, and which are only modes and changes and phases of process. There is no 'life' (or 'living soul,' jivo) apart from what we call the two powers or faculties of material and psychical life (Dve nama rupajivitindriyani)." "Now a 'living soul' is generally perceived and ordinarily reckoned as 'some one living a week, a month, a year,' etc.; the essence of the living appearance is commonly considered to be the self; the essence of its continuity is considered to be the 'living soul.' But the two powers or faculties of life referred to above are but the vital (coefficients) of momentary phenomena only not of a personal entity." According to the conventional truth, "a person exists," "self exists," whereas according to the ultimate truth, "neither does a person exist nor a self, there are only phenomena." According to the former, "it is not untruthful to say that there is a personal entity"; whereas according to the latter, "to say 'there is no personal entity' is neither untruthful nor mere opinion."(Ledi Sadaw, 'Some points in Buddhist Doctrine,' J.P.T.S., 1913-14, pp. 124-129.) >> I know you know all that already, but I really like the reminders: 1-that it's MY Ideas & Not Aggregates that I really find important and 2-whenever I think I see something called whatever 'name', it definitely cannot be any ultimately real 'name'/naama. peace, connie #85205 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 1, 2008 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (139) nilovg Dear Connie, just a correction: it is not my Ch 2, but Kh Sujin's book. Nina. Op 1-mei-2008, om 14:58 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Dear Friends, > Nina's ch.2 continues: #85206 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 1, 2008 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta, Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Hi Howard, thank you very much for the sutta which is good to reflect on. Nina. Op 1-mei-2008, om 16:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > As an example, > with regard to disliked people, there is the following sutta: > > _____________________________________________ > > AN 5.161 > Aghatavinaya Sutta > Subduing Hatred (1) #85207 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 1, 2008 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Dear Walto, Op 1-mei-2008, om 15:53 heeft Walter Horn het volgende geschreven: > Yes, I don't think anyone should suggest that recitation is an end in > itself. ---- N: No, but some people may not know the real cause which brings the appropriate result. They may not realise that they should know when the citta is kusala with patience and kindness and when akusala, with selfish affection that may erroneously be taken for metta. Nina. #85208 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 1, 2008 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] doubts nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 30-apr-2008, om 10:32 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > I think my mind is still looking for something to control and cannot > accept this moment. So much tanha. > > Please tell my something about dvaras. ------- N: Seeing is an experience that cognizes solour or visible object, that which impinges on the eyesense. The eyesense is a rupa (physical phenomenon) that is the means for seeing to experience colour. This is called doorway or dvara, but the term dvara is only a symbol for clarification, do not think of a real doorway. Earsense is the doorway through which sound is experienced, and so on for the other senses. Then there is the mind-door that experiences all kinds of objects, mental or physical and also nibbaana. When we see colour, there is shortly afterwards thinking on account of what is seen, and then concepts are experienced through the mind- door. We usually think with tanhaa, because we have accumulated this from life to life. We cannot force ourselves not having tamhaa, it is conditioned, and in this way we can learn that it is non-self. Tanhaa always follows, no matter we are seeing, hearing or experiencing the other sense objects. It may be so subtle that we do not notice it. -------- > L:If we consider the self just only as coarising of nama and rupa > takes > place in six senses is it the way to Nibbana? ------- N: What we take for self are just nama and rupa. Understanding of them when they appear one at a time can be developed. Thus the idea of self can be eradicated, but that takes a long time. It is best to develop more understanding of nama and rupa as they appear now. Nina. #85209 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 1, 2008 12:08 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 nilovg Dear Elaine, I think you do not mind if I answer you in dsg, others are also interested. Op 1-mei-2008, om 13:38 heeft tancheekoon het volgende geschreven: > Hi, i m new, but wish to share something about dhamma. we don't go > too far from buddha's teachings.Pls be mindful to our daily > activities of life before we go to extreme.be aware of the 3 evil > roots.tq ------- N: But I know that you have read and have done quite an amount of study. Before there can be mindfulness of lobha, dosa and moha we have to know what they are. There are many shades of them. Lobha may be so subtle that we do not notice it or take it for kusala. I quote from an old post: < Lobha, attachment, is the second noble truth. Check whether from early morning on we were getting things for ourselves: breakfast, taking hold of this or that object, etc. There is very little daana in a day. Did we think of giving away things or of metta? We read in a sutta that lobha is our teacher (we follow!) and also our pupil, it is always with us, it always follows us. Khun Sujin reminds us of this when attachment comes in while wanting so much progress in understanding. She reminds us that here the patience comes in. > < When we think of persons we ususally do so with clinging and ignorance. Unless we think of them with metta, karuna, or want to help them. How rare are such moments compared to akusala cittas. Clinging arises immediately after seeing, but it is not noticed. We want to see, we want to live, go on seeing. See, here I am already in the world of paramattha dhammas, speaking of kusala cittas and akusala cittas.... The Abhidhamma is most practical. It helps us to see cause and result in our life. Kamma and vipaaka: why does this have to happen to 'me'? Poor me, and then we commiserate with ourselves, making things worse. When you get angry you may blame another person, but no, thinking of that person, what he did, etc. are just stories, concepts. But the real cause of your anger is within: your accumulated dosa. We need to know when there is lobha, dosa and moha, but we do not have to name them, or name them paramattha dhammas or Abhidhamma. They appear and have their own characteristics which can be directly experienced. They are the facts of life. Knowing about people's accumulations helps to be an understanding person instead of blaming them. > Nina. #85210 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Thu May 1, 2008 1:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 walterhorn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ================================== > I find it hard to understand why you would think that, Ken. I know of no > serious Buddhist practitioner who does not begin by studying the Dhamma (and > continues with that), and who does not understand that study & > contemplation, and sila, and mindfulfulness in daily life, and the 4 right efforts are > requisite preparation (and ongoing support) for meditation and for all > cultivation of calm and wisdom. Anyone who meditates knows in particular that unless > one's sila is at a high level, the rest of one's practice, most especially > meditation, suffers greatly. > You are trying to burn down a straw man, Ken. > > > With metta, > Howard > > P. S. Though I meditate every day and see it to be of critical importance, > it is percentage-wise the least part of my practice. At least 80% of my > practice consists of the other items I mentioned above. Were I to eliminate the > meditation, though, the whole practice would dry up and wither, because the > states of calm and clarity entered while meditating - and it is of no concern to > me whether they are officially jhana or not - are like streams that refresh > the mind and that water and sustain the entire practice. > > P. P. S. I never speak of "formal" meditation any more than I speak of > "formal" standing, reclining, conversing, retiring for sleep, or studying. The > word 'formal' adds nothing. > Great post. Howard. I've been trying to say things along those lines for a couple of weeks, but knowing so little about Buddhism, I don't have the words. Thanks. Walto #85211 From: han tun Date: Thu May 1, 2008 7:11 pm Subject: Re: What I heard, transcription of tape, to Han hantun1 Dear Connie, Thank you very much for the quotes from B.C. Law, "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa" and your remarks. > Connie: I know you know all that already, but I really like the reminders: (1)-that it's MY Ideas & Not Aggregates that I really find important and (2)-whenever I think I see something called whatever 'name', it definitely cannot be any ultimately real 'name'/naama. Han: It is very deep for me. I will have to read it again and again and think over it to get some idea. But I will do that. Respectfully, Han #85212 From: "connie" Date: Thu May 1, 2008 10:41 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nichiconn Dear James, James: Should someone first consider the suttas (the Buddha's word) or the commentary/Abhidhamma (someone else's word)? When there is a conflict, I believe the suttas should come first. c: I'm not sure there is conflict, but what about the vinaya, also the Buddha's word? -- << "Sangha" according to the Vinaya means a sufficient group of monks to represent the Order of monks for various ecclesiastical purposes (Vin. i,319). But in the suttas "Sangha" means the four pairs of noble individuals or the eight particular individuals (cattari purisayugani, attha purisapuggala), i.e., those who are on the path to stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and Arahantship, and those who have obtained the fruits thereof.>> -- Lily de Silva I like: << Iti-vuttaka: j h moore, p.vii: ...almost any comment or argument on any Buddhist topic must inevitably be regarded as only provisional, if not in some cases even premature, until all the texts, together w/their native commentaries, shall have been sifted, compared, interpreted, and criticized. >> peace, connie Sacred Books of the Buddhists, vol.21: INCEPTION OF DISCIPLINE and VINAYA-NIDANA - Being a Translation and Edition of the Bahiranidana of Buddhaghosa's Samantapasadika, the Vinaya Commentary by N. A. JAYAWICKRAMA. 1962. pp.19-20: << 25. Here follows the explanation and elucidation. These three Pitakas, indeed, according to formal analyses are said to be the authoritative injunctions, the popular teachings, and the ultimate truth respectively ; or they are the discourses necessitated by transgressions, those adapted to circumstances, and those set out in accordance with reality respectively ; or again, discourses on the various categories of restraint, on the refutation of heresies, and on the distinction between Name and Form, respectively. Herein, the Vinayapitaka is called the exposition of injunctions as it has been preached with a preponderance of authority by the Exalted One in whom all authority is vested ; the Suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has been preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics ; and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of ultimate truth as it has been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is adept in the absolute truths. [22] Likewise, the first is called the teaching necessitated by transgressions wherein those beings who are given to many misdeeds are admonished in accordance with the nature of their offences ; the second, that adapted to circumstances wherein beings who are given to divers dispositions, latent tendencies, and traits of character are admonished in accordance with their adaptability ; and the third, that set out in accordance with reality wherein beings who conceive of an ego and what pertains to it, only in the presence of a pile of conditions, are instructed in terms of the absolute truth. Similarly, the first is called discourse on the various categories of restraint as in it are discussed all aspects of restraint, which are diametrically opposed to remissness in conduct ; the second, discourse on the refutation of heresies as in it is discussed the unravelling of perverse views, which is diametrically opposed to the sixty-two heretical theories ; and the third, discourse on the distinction between Name and Form as in it is discussed the differentiation of Name and Form which is diametrically opposed to lust and other evil tendencies. 26. It should be known that in these three are the threefold training, the threefold avoidance, and the fourfold profundity. Hence the training in the higher morality is specifically discussed in the Vinayapitaka, the training in higher thought in the Suttapitaka, and the training in higher wisdom in the Abhidhammapitaka. In the Vinayapitaka is taught the avoidance of transgression, as transgression in defilements is diametrically opposed to morality ; in the Suttapitaka the avoidance of prepossession, as prepossession is diametrically opposed to concentration ; in the Abhidhammapitaka, the avoidance of latent bias, as latent bias is diametrically opposed to wisdom. In the first is the categorical avoidance of defilements and in the others the avoidance consisting of elimination and eradication. In the first is the avoidance of the defilement of misconduct : in the others that of the defilements of craving and misbelief. And in each of them the fourfold profundity of the Dhamma, of the meaning, of the exposition, and of the comprehension, should be known. Herein the Dhamma is the Sacred Texts, the meaning is its precise meaning, the exposition is the verbal preaching of the Sacred Texts which have been established in the mind, and the comprehension is the correct understanding of the Sacred Texts and the meaning of the Sacred Texts. And in these three (Pitakas) [23] the Dhamma, the meaning, the exposition, and the comprehension are difficult of access to men of little wit and providing no basis of support even as the great ocean is to hares and such animals ; and hence they are profound. In this manner, herein, should the fourfold profundity too of each one of them be understood. >> #85213 From: "connie" Date: Thu May 1, 2008 11:33 pm Subject: dear scott, nichiconn sorry to be in such a reading frenzy... shirking the vsm! <> I remain, con(trite) ps. other things that caught my eye during the failed attempt to relocate a crytic note to self re: the pa~n~na/bhavanga question -- ===== ASHIN JANAKABHIVAMSA's ABHIDHAMMA IN DAILY LIFE: 1. In the Patthana it is said, "Akusalo dhammo kusalassa dhammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Unwholesome mental states support the wholesome mental states by way of Natural Decisive Support Condition" 2. false wisdom cannot be found in the stupid, the dull and the low IQ persons; it can be found only in highly intelligent or educated persons. That is to say, the true wisdom is a condition for false wisdom by way of Natural Decisive Support Condition (Pakatupanissaya Paccaya) 3. Real wisdom may be divided into (1) Jati-panna and (2) Pavatti-panna. Those who are born with alobha, adosa, and amoha are called Tihetuka puggalas (three-rooted persons). Since their birth they are blessed with three good roots. So their amoha (wisdom or non-delusion) starts with their birth. Therefore they learn and understand quickly and are able to think profoundly even at a young age. Such wisdom is jati-panna. 4. Pavatti-panna means the intelligence and wisdom acquired at a later age through training and learning. ===== BURLINGAME: Buddhist Legends 03, p.275: It is said that but two novices ever received admission to full membership in the Order at the age of seven years: this novice Sumana and the novice Sopaka. ===== Pali List John: In Pali, this j~naa root gives the verb jaanaati "to know", and noun ~naana "knowledge"; with prefix pa- we get verb pajaanaati "to come to know, understand, distinguish" and noun pa~n~naa "wisdom, understanding"; with prefix sa.m- we get verb sa~njaanaati "to recognize, perceive" and noun sa~n~naa "perception"; and with prefix vi- we have the verb vijaanaati "to have discriminative knowledge, become aware of" and noun vi~n~naana "awareness, consciousness", and so on. ===== #85214 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> H: > The question as to whether the Buddha's 8-fold path occurs in a single moment aside, I do not agree that all reality occurs in a single moment if by that you mean the *same* moment. ----- I don't know of any same-moment theories. At least, not with regard to the Dhamma - I have heard that some physicists believe the universe exists all at once and time is just something that happens when . . . Well, you would know more about that sort of thing than I would. So let's leave the same-moment theory aside. If, as I believe, path- travel exists in just a moment then wouldn't it follow that *every* ultimate reality existed in just a moment? ------------------ H: > Your "real" and my "real" may well not have the same meaning, and in fact may have little coherent meaning at all. But the picking up of a pencil involves and spans a multitude of mind states, namas, and rupas, and a period of time traversing a multitude of "moments," each one of which, *when* it occurs, is "the present moment," a.k.a. "now." ------------------ It's a concept! In ultimate reality there is no pencil and no picking up. You may not be alone in your theory of inter-related dhammas that form an act of picking up (or an act of dana etc), I don't know. To me it seems, at best, futile to even think of such things. At worst, it tends to give reality (or efficacy) to conventional actions. And so it tends to give reality to other concepts too (i,e., to sentient beings). It's the thin end of the wedge! :-) ---------------------------- H: > If, as you seem to be saying, there is but one moment and but one citta, then there is no change. BTW, if, when you speak of "just a concept," you mean literally "nothing at all," and yet you continue to type upon a keyboard and attempt to converse with people, you must be out of your mind. ---------------------------- I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying there has to be such things as people and keyboards? -------------- <. . > H: > Your single-moment theory is incompatible with impermanence, and simply stating both doesn't erase the incompatibility. -------------- This seems an extraordinary statement. Or are you are making a distinction between the single moment theory 'as I understand it' and the single moment theory 'as it is found in the texts?' If so, please tell me the difference. Ken H #85215 From: han tun Date: Fri May 2, 2008 1:49 am Subject: Patthaana (35) hantun1 Patthana (35) Dear Friends, We are studying (6) Conascence Condition (sahajaata-paccaya). This Condition is divided into six types. We had taken up the first five types. We will now take up the sixth type. The Sixth type: (6) Ruupino dhammaa aruupiinam dhammaanam ki~ncikaale sahajaata-paccayena paccayo ki~ncikaale na sahajaata-paccayena paccayo. The material states are sometimes related to the immaterial states by conascence condition, and sometimes not related by conascence condition. This is actually a further explanation of the relation of the heart-base (hadaya-vatthu) to the cittas and cetasikas which arise at the heart-base. At the moment of conception (okkanti-khana), kamma produces the heart-base (hadaya-vatthu) and the rebirth-linking consciousness (patisandhi-citta) which is dependant on it, simultaneously at the same time. At that moment, the patisandhi-citta and the hadaya-vatthu are related to one another by way of conascence condition. However, after that moment, throughout life (which is called pavatti-kaala), the heart-base has to arise before the citta which is dependant on it. Similarly, at pavatti-kaala, the sense-bases which are the physical bases for the sense-cognitions, such as seeing or hearing, have to arise immediately prior to the cittas and cetasikas which are dependant on them. Ruupa, at its arising moment is too weak to function as a base, and therefore it can perform the function of base, only “afterâ€? it has arisen. In that case, they are not related to one another by way of conascence condition, because they do not arise at the same time. Therefore, it is stated above that the material states are sometimes related to the immaterial states by conascence condition, and sometimes not related by conascence condition. “Sometimes related toâ€? indicates the moment of conception (okkanti-kha.na), and “sometimes not related byâ€? refers to (pavatti-kaala) or throughout life. But the ‘relation’ is there. If there is no relation, one state cannot condition the other. Therefore, what we must consider here is: if not by conascence condition, by what condition or by what paccayasatti are they related? The answer is: it is by (10) Prenascence Condition (purejaata-paccayo) which we will study later. This is the end of (6) Conascence Condition (sahajaata-paccaya). We will take up (7) Mutuality Condition (a~n~nama~n~na-paccaya) in the next post. metta, Han #85216 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 2, 2008 2:03 am Subject: Metta Ch 3, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The Visuddhimagga explains that in order to make mettå grow it should first be developed towards a person one respects, someone who observes síla, who has wisdom and other good qualities, such as one’s teacher one loves and respects. The reason for this is that in the beginning mettå is not yet developed to such degree that it could be extended towards whomever one meets. In order to be able to do this it must be developed time and again, evermore. Question: What is the proximate cause for the arising of mettå? Khun Sujin: Seeing the danger of dosa, aversion or hate. Question: Can there be mettå for what is not alive? Khun Sujin: That is impossible. Mettå, karunå (compassion), muditå (sympathetic joy) and upekkhå (equanimity), which are the “four divine abidings” (brahma-vihåras), must have as object beings or people. Thus there cannot be mettå for what is not a living being. However, as regards dosa, aversion, there can be aversion not only towards beings, but also towards things or circumstances. Question: Can mettå arise just after seeing visible object? Khun Sujin: Mettå has beings as object. When you see a small child can there not be mettå? How will you act when there is mettå? You may speak in a kind way, you may help the child to cross the street or you may give it a sweet. This is the way to develop mettå. We can realize ourselves to what extent mettå is already developed. We cannot expect mettå to arise if we do not know its characteristic. Question: What is the difference between mettå which arises just after seeing and mettå which arises while we are thinking? Khun Sujin: When you see beings and people and you are annoyed you can be aware of this. After seeing there may be akusala or there may be mettå. When there is mettå you consider the other person as a friend, you wish for his happiness and want to do everything which is beneficial for him. You feel happy and cheerful while you think of his wellbeing, you may smile and you will not behave in any way which will make him unhappy. Also when you give him something you can do that in such a way that it truly makes him happy.There are many ways of giving things to others. Some people give in such a way that the other person feels no joy when he receives something. When mettå has already become more developed, when it has become stronger, it conditions our actions and speech and also our way of thinking about other people. Even when we do not see other people we can think of them with kindness. We can think of promoting their wellbeing and happiness, we can consider ways to help particular persons, to support them in different ways. Then there is mettå without the need to recite texts. Reciting texts on mettå is actually not so difficult, but truly developing mettå is difficult. This cannot be accomplished by reciting texts. As I said before, there must be sati-sampajañña in daily life which knows precisely the characteristic of mettå. It must know precisely when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta. ****** Nina. #85217 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 2, 2008 2:08 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 253, 254, 255 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 253, 254, 255. Intro: As we have seen, bhava, becoming, is twofold: kamma-process becoming and rebirth-process becoming. As the Visuddhimagga (2250) states: “Herein, the kamma process itself as becoming is 'kamma-process becoming; likewise the rebirth process itself as becoming is 'rebirth- process becoming." In the previous section kamma bhava, kamma process becoming, was explained according to its nature or reality (dhammato), and in the following sections rebirth-process becoming, upatti bhava, is explained according to its nature or reality. --------- 253. Rebirth-process becoming briefly is aggregates generated by kamma. It is of nine kinds, according as it is said: 'Herein, what is rebirth-process becoming? Sense-desire becoming, fine-material becoming, immaterial becoming, percipient becoming, non-percipient becoming, neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming, one- constituent becoming, four constituent becoming, five-constituent becoming: this is called rebirth-process becoming' (Vbh. 17). -------- N: The Tiika mentions that these nine kinds of birth are three triads, namely, one triad of sense-desire becoming, fine-material becoming, immaterial becoming; one triad of percipient becoming, non- percipient becoming, neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming; one triad of one-constituent becoming, four constituent becoming, five-constituent becoming. --------- Text Vis. 254: Herein, the kind of becoming called 'having sense desires' is 'sense-desire becoming'. Similarly with the 'fine-material' and 'immaterial' kinds of becoming. -------- N: The Tiika speaks with reference to sense desire becoming about kaama tanhaa, sense desire clinging. In the Expositor (I, p. 82) it is explained that kaama means passionate desire as well as the basis for passionate desire, the cycle of birth and death. The Tiika elaborates on that which is the support of sense desire, the object of sense desire. The expressions ‘sukha.m ruupa.m”, happy visible object, or sukho saggo, happy heaven, indicates that these objects are the condition for kaama, sensuous clinging. It does not mean that ruupa itself is happy. The khandhas of the sensuous planes acquired by clinging or which are clung to, (upadi.n.na) are to be found in the lowest plane of the aviici hell, up to the highest deva plane. Also in the company of the highest brahmas the khandhas are upadi.n.na khandhas. As we have seen, the first triad is: kaama bhavo, ruupa bhaavo and aruupa bhavo. The highest class of becoming is the result of the aruupa jhaana of neither perception or non-perception, and here are only the four naama-khandhas and also these are upadi.n.na khandhas, as the Tiika states. ------------ Text Vis.:It is the becoming of those possessed of perception, or there is perception here in becoming, thus it is 'percipient becoming'. The opposite kind is 'non-percipient becoming'. ------ N: The second triad is, as we have seen, percipient becoming, non- percipient becoming, neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming. Birth as asa~n~na satta, non-percipient being, is the result of the development of ruupa-jhaana for those who see the disadvantage of naama. -------- Text Vis. Owing to the absence of gross perception and the presence of subtle perception there is neither perception nor non-perception in that kind of becoming, thus it is 'neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient becoming'. --------- N: This refers to rebirth-consciousness which is the result of the fourth aruupa-jhaana. Perception, feeling, and the other naama khandhas are extremely subtle. -------- Text Vis.: It is becoming constituted out of the materiality aggregate only, thus it is 'one-constituent becoming', or that kind of becoming has only one constituent, [the material aggregate, or dimension,] thus it is one-constituent becoming. -------- N: The third triad is: one-constituent becoming, four constituent becoming, five-constituent becoming. Constituent, vokaara, refers to khandha. There is one-constituent becoming in the plane of asa~n~na satta, non-percipient beings. They are born without naama. In that plane there is only ruupa khandha. -------- Text Vis.: And similarly the 'four-constituent' [has the four mental aggregates, or dimensions,] and the 'five-constituent' [has the material and the four mental aggregates, or dimensions]. -------- N: Birth in the aruupa brahma planes where there is no ruupa, only naama, is the result of aruupa jhaana. Here there are only the four naama-khandhas. -------- Text Vis.255: Herein, sense-desire becoming is five aggregates acquired through kamma (clung to). Likewise the fine-material becoming. Immaterial becoming is four. Percipient becoming is four and five. Non-percipient becoming is one aggregate that is acquired through kamma (clung to). ------- This is how the exposition should be known here 'as to state'. -------- Conclusion: The Tiika emphasizes again and again that becoming pertains to the khandhas that are acquired by clinging, upadi.n.na khandhas, no matter in what kind of becoming, even the highest kind, namely, birth that is the result of the fourth stage of aruupa jhaana. In all nine kinds of becoming, there are upadi.n.na khandhas, khandhas acquired by clinging. So long as one is in the cycle of birth and death there are khandhas acquired by clinging. The arahat has eradicated all clinging and thus, he has no more conditions for becoming. This is the end of the cycle. ---------- Nina. #85218 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 2, 2008 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nilovg Dear Connie and Howard, Op 2-mei-2008, om 7:41 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > INCEPTION OF DISCIPLINE and VINAYA-NIDANA - ...In the Vinayapitaka is taught the avoidance of transgression, as transgression in defilements is diametrically opposed to morality ; in the Suttapitaka the avoidance of prepossession, as prepossession is diametrically opposed to concentration ; in the Abhidhammapitaka, the avoidance of latent bias, as latent bias is diametrically opposed to wisdom. In the first is the categorical avoidance of defilements and in the others the avoidance consisting of elimination and eradication. In the first is the avoidance of the defilement of misconduct : in the others that of the defilements of craving and misbelief. ... ------- N: Connie, did you type out all this or is it on line? Appreciating your work. Howard, you remember our debate about the Co. comparing the three parts of the Tipitaka and you found it indigestable (and worse :-)). Now, not to start another debate (we both have lack of time), when reading the whole text given by Connie in her post to James, do you still find it unacceptable? Nina. #85219 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 3:04 am Subject: Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Jon, --------- <. . .> KH: > > If we are regarding dana as a > reality we must be talking about something that happens in a single > citta. If we are regarding it as a concept then we can talk about > its happening in three-dimensional space over a over a period of time > etc, etc. > J: > I would rather say, "If we are talking about the dhamma that is dana then (like all dhammas) it is a momentary phenomenon, i.e., it exists for but a moment." I think talk about "things happening" in a single moment/over a period of time is already talk in the realm of concepts. ---------- Interesting! But I don't know how helpful it is. :-) When we say (for example), "Nama experiences an object," or "Alobha performs its functions," we are talking about something that happens, aren't we? And it happens in a single moment. ------------- <. . .> J: > I think your question is: Can panna distinguish the citta that is dana from the similarly-composed citta that is some other form of kusala (such as sila)? I think panna of the moment could know a citta as kusala, but it would be other inferential knowledge that classified it as dana or sila. -------------- Now that is both interesting and helpful! :-) I will resist the urge to theorise further. That answer will do for now, thanks. Ken H #85220 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 3:57 am Subject: Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply (I liked the excerpt from Ven. Pesala): S: "...Yes, yoniso manasikara (wise attention) can be the condition for panna to arise and develop in the case of humans (here, I'm not talking about exceptions). It is the accumulated panna that counts." Scott: So, to continue to fine-tune on this, patisandhi-citta and no, two, or three roots aside, the development and accumulation of pa~n~naa depends on other conditions for its arising and hence it is at least theoretically possible for pa~n~naa to develop, albeit within relatively weak limits in some cases. S: "...In the case of animals, there can be kusala (and thereby yoniso manasikara), but we have to question whether panna can develop or whether there just aren't the conditions in such a realm. The rebirth is indicative of the kinds of cittas likely to arise, I think, though of course not all cittas in a woeful realm are 'woeful', just as not all cittas in a jhana realm are 'jhana' cittas." Scott: I like the above reminder. Sincerely, Scott. #85221 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 4:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Here's the comparison of translations for Visuddhimagga XVII, Exposition of the Plane of Understanding: The Path of Purity (Pe Maung Tin): "For whatever state renders service to the standing or arising of a state is said to be its cause. Such words as condition, reason, base, coming-to-be, source, are the same in meaning, different in form. Thus it is 'condition' in the sense of a root, 'cause' in the sense of rendering service, in a word condition-cause is a state which renders service in the sense of a root. The significance for the teachers is, that it effects goodness in good states and so on, just as paddy-seeds the paddy, a blue-coloured stones the blue rays and so on." The Path of Purification (~Naa.namoli): "What is meant is: when a state is indispensable to another state's presence or arising, the former is condition for the latter. But as to characteristic, a condition has the characteristic of assisting; for any given state that assists the presence or arising of a given state is called that latter's condition. The words condition, cause, reason, source, originator, producer, etc., are one in meaning though different in letter. So, since it is a cause in the sense of a root, and condition in the sense of assistance, briefly a state that is assistantial to the sense of a root is a [root-] cause condition. "The intention of [some] teachers is that it establishes the profitable, etc., state in what is profitable, etc., as paddy, etc., do for paddy, etc., and as the colour of gems, etc., do for the lustre of gems, and so on." Path of Purity: "But if this be so, there would be no conditioned-causality in material objects, which originate through condition. The fact is that condition does not effect goodness and so on, nor is it not cause. For this has been said: 'Of the states associated with root-condition and of material things which originate therefrom, root-condition is the cause by way of rendering service to them as root-condition', (Tikapa.t.thaana i,1)." Path of Purification: "But if that is so, then, [it follows that] the state of root-cause condition does not apply to the kinds of materiality originated by it, for it does not establish any profitableness, etc., in them. Nevertheless, it is a condition for them, for this is said: 'Root-causes are a condition, as root-cause condition, for the states associated with a root-cause and for the kinds of materiality originated thereby' (P.tn.1,1)." The Path of Purity: "The indeterminate nature of classes of unconditioned consciousness is effected without this condition. And the goodness and so on of classes of conditioned consciousness is bound up with wise attention and so on, not with the associated condition. And if the goodness and so on were by nature in the associated conditions, it would be bound up with the condition in the condition-associated states; (thus) absence of greed would be either good or indeterminate, but because, it being both good and indifferent, the goodness and so on would have to be looked for among the conditions as among the associated states. There is no contradiction if, instead of taking condition to mean roots by virtue of their effecting goodness and so on, we take them to mean roots by virtue of their effecting a fixed position. For those states which are actually caused by conditions are firm and well-fixed like firmly rooted trees; those which are not conditioned are not well-fixed like watery plants and so on (which have roots) of the size of a sesame seed. Thus the clause 'which renders service in the sense of root' is to be understood as a state caused by the condition which renders service by effecting a fixed condition." The Path of Purification: "Again, the indeterminateness of root-causeless consciousness is established without it. And the profitableness, etc., of those with root-cause is bound up with wise attention, etc., not with the associated root-causes. And if the profitableness, etc., resided in the associated root-causes as an individual essence, then either the non-greed bound up with the root-cause in the associated states would be only profitable or it would be only indeterminate; but since it can be both, profitableness, etc., in the root-causes must still be sought for, just as in the associated states [such as wise attention, and so on]. "But when the root-causes' sense of root is taken as establishing stableness, rather than as establishing profitableness, etc., there is no contradiction. For states that have obtained a root-cause condition are firm, like trees, and stable; but those without root-causes are, like moss [with roots no bigger than] sesamum seeds, etc., unstable. So an assisstantial state may be understood as a root-cause condition, since it establishes stableness through being of assistance in the sense of a root." Sincerely, Scott. #85222 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 4:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Walter Horn" wrote: > . . . > > Great post. Howard. I've been trying to say things along those > lines for a couple of weeks, but knowing so little about Buddhism, I > don't have the words. > > Thanks. > > Walto > Hi Walto (and Howard), I am glad you raised this topic, and I hope you will continue to do so until you have all the facts. You might not want to get into a conversation with me just now since you have so many others in train. But there are a few things in Howard's post that I might comment on while I am here. Firstly, I should explain what I meant by jhana development's being [thought to be] not necessarily kusala all the way. I meant that people think unwholesome practices can be part of jhana (or vipassana) development. They say, for example, that sitting with desire (lobha) for results, is better than not sitting at all. ("The end will justify the means!") But that is not how it works. Higher levels of samatha and vipassana develop from lower levels of samatha and vipassana. They do not develop from craving, or from conceit or wrong view. Sitting with desire for results, or with ideas of being a wonderful person, or with wrong view of the controllability of mental development, will only develop into more of the same akusala. So I meant to point out an error in the formal-meditator's thinking: I did not mean to say that mediators were immoral people who didn't care about sila. Is that what Howard thought I meant? I don't know. It might explain why he wrote "Anyone who meditates knows in particular that unless one's sila is at a high level, the rest of one's practice, most especially meditation, suffers greatly. You are trying to burn down a straw man, Ken." Howard and I habitually accuse each other of burning down straw men. :-) (Sorry about all the third person, Howard.) In the postscript, Howard completely misses the point. He says that his formal meditation practices are "like streams that refresh the mind and that water and sustain the entire practice." But, no, the practice is the arising of panna (right understanding). And panna always (automatically) conditions calm and energy to arise with it. It not some kind of hard slog that needs support from outside. I'll leave it there for now, but I could go on. (And on, and on). :-) Ken H #85223 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri May 2, 2008 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II jonoabb Hi James > James: What do you mean by "mundane version"? Who do you believe > taught this "mundane version"? > I was really only agreeing with the following comment of yours made in an earlier post: "It is incorrect to say that the Noble Eightfold Path is only of a supermundane nature (occuring only at the time of enlightenment) when the tradition of Theravada, as recorded by Buddhaghosa, states that the Noble Eightfold Path is both mundane and supermundane." Also in the Vism extract quoted by you there is the following (par. 33 of Ch. XXII -- see extract re-pasted at the end of this post): "Now in the prior stage when mundane insight is occurring, they are found in a plurality of consciousnesses as follows ..." As I understand it, "mundane insight" means a moment of arising of the mundane path. It is the insight the development of which culminates in the attainment of the supramundane path (enlightenment). Only the supramundane path is 8-fold; the mundane path-moments (insight development) are accompanied by 5 or 6 of the 8 factors only. (However, this level of detail is not found in the suttas themselves, but only in the commentaries.) >> But the description of the NEP is a description of the >> supramundane path moment, because it is the >> transcendental nature of the path that the Buddha >> is declaring. >> > > James: Where? When? In what sutta? If the Buddha was only > teaching a supramundane version, who taught the mundane version? The term "Noble" (Pali: "ariya") connotes the supramundane. But the mundane path is implied (it is the mundane that leads to the supramundane). I did not say the Buddha was only teaching a supramundane version, but that the description of the path factors describes the supramundane version. >> (See also the reference in par. XXII to "the Noble >> Eightfold Path, which is called 'Enlightenment'".) >> > > James: You will have to quote to me what you mean, with your > analysis please. Sorry, that should have been par. 33 (of Chapter XXII of the Vism). I was referring to the Vism passage quoted in your message (see the third sentence of the first paragraph of the quote, re pasted below). This seems to support the idea of the NEP as being nominally supramundane. >> Getting back to your contention regarding the interpretation of >> samma-samadhi as one or other of the 4 mundane jhanas, I'd be >> interested to know whether, as you understand it, mundane >> jhana is a prerequisite to the development of insight, or is >> a prerequisite only to the attainment of enlightenment (and, >> if the latter, to which level of enlightenment). > > James: We have discussed that issue many times already, and Bhikkhu > Bodhi wrote a detailed article about that issue which Sarah > specially posted for this group. There is not a clear-cut answer > but it appears that jhana is required for non-return or arahant, but > not stream entry or once-return. Read B. Bodhi's article again > found in the files section of this group (which I'm sure you know > already since you are a moderator ;-)). Well I'm more interested in how you (James) see it than how BB sees it, since it's you I'm having the discussion with ;-)) If jhana is required for non-return or arahant but not stream entry or once-return, then it's absence is no obstacle to the development of insight up to and including once-return. In that case, the description of samma-samadhi as a factor of the NEP would have to be read as applying to only the non-returner and the arahant. Is this how you see it? Jon James: To quote from the Vism: XXII, 33: Herein, the fulfilment of states sharing in enlightenment is the fulfilledness of those states partaking in enlightenment. For they are the following thirty-seven states: the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the Four Right Endeavours, the Four Roads to Power, the Five Faculties, the Five Powers, the Seven Enlightenment Factors, and the Noble Eightfold Path. And they are called 'partaking of enlightenment' because they take part of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is called 'Enlightenment' in the sense of enlightening, and they 'take the part' of that because they are helpful. XXII, 39. So there are these thirty-seven states partaking of enlightenment. Now in the prior stage when mundane insight is occurring, they are found in a plurality of consciousnesses as follows: the Foundations of Mindfulness consisting in contemplating the body....And at the time when, on seeing an unprofitable state arisen in someone else, which has not yet arisen in his own person, he strives for its non-arising thus 'I shall not behave as he has done in whom this is now arisen, and so this will not arise in me', then he has the first right endeavor; when, seeing something unprofitable in his own behavior, he strives to abandon it, then he has the second; when he strives to arouse jhana or insight so far unarisen in this person, he has the third; and when he arouses again and again what has already arisen so that it shall not diminish, he has the fourth. And at the time of arounsing a profitable state with zeal as the motive force, there is the road consisting in zeal, [and so on with the remaining three roads to power.] And at the time of abstaining from wrong speech there is right speech, [and so on with abstaining from wrong action and wrong livelihood.] At he time arising of [any one of] these four kinds of [path] knowledge (Stream Entry, Once-Return, Non-Return, Arahant), then [all these states] are found in a single consciousness. In the moment of fruition the thirty three excepting the Four Right Endeavours are found. #85224 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 2, 2008 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 5/2/2008 4:03:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> H: > The question as to whether the Buddha's 8-fold path occurs in a single moment aside, I do not agree that all reality occurs in a single moment if by that you mean the *same* moment. ----- I don't know of any same-moment theories. At least, not with regard to the Dhamma - I have heard that some physicists believe the universe exists all at once and time is just something that happens when . . . Well, you would know more about that sort of thing than I would. So let's leave the same-moment theory aside. If, as I believe, path- travel exists in just a moment then wouldn't it follow that *every* ultimate reality existed in just a moment? ------------------ H: > Your "real" and my "real" may well not have the same meaning, and in fact may have little coherent meaning at all. But the picking up of a pencil involves and spans a multitude of mind states, namas, and rupas, and a period of time traversing a multitude of "moments," each one of which, *when* it occurs, is "the present moment," a.k.a. "now." ------------------ It's a concept! In ultimate reality there is no pencil and no picking up. You may not be alone in your theory of inter-related dhammas that form an act of picking up (or an act of dana etc), I don't know. To me it seems, at best, futile to even think of such things. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: To me, ignoring aggregations of interacting dhammas is ignoring important aspects of reality. ----------------------------------------------------- At worst, it tends to give reality (or efficacy) to conventional actions. And so it tends to give reality to other concepts too (i,e., to sentient beings). It's the thin end of the wedge! :-) ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that "slippery slope" may be the expression you're after! ;-) ------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- H: > If, as you seem to be saying, there is but one moment and but one citta, then there is no change. BTW, if, when you speak of "just a concept," you mean literally "nothing at all," and yet you continue to type upon a keyboard and attempt to converse with people, you must be out of your mind. ---------------------------- I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying there has to be such things as people and keyboards? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not if one is happy with pretending to interact with hallucinations! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- -------------- <. . > H: > Your single-moment theory is incompatible with impermanence, and simply stating both doesn't erase the incompatibility. -------------- This seems an extraordinary statement. Or are you are making a distinction between the single moment theory 'as I understand it' and the single moment theory 'as it is found in the texts?' If so, please tell me the difference. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I understand you to say that there is ever and only the sole same moment (whatever a "moment" may be). As for "the texts", what specific texts in the tipitaka are you talking about, and could you please give me a few examples? Also, I would like to see your reply to my assertion that anicca and the notion of "but one moment" are incompatible. You seem to be ignoring that issue. Have you allowed yourself to consider it? -------------------------------------------------- Ken H ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #85225 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 2, 2008 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/2/2008 5:16:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Howard, you remember our debate about the Co. comparing the three parts of the Tipitaka and you found it indigestable (and worse :-)). --------------------------------------------- Howard: Forgive me - I don't recall that. ---------------------------------------------- Now, not to start another debate (we both have lack of time), --------------------------------------------- Howard: No time and possibly little inclination! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- when reading the whole text given by Connie in her post to James, do you still find it unacceptable? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Could you please give me the message number? I'll then read it carefully. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #85226 From: "connie" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 6:38 am Subject: Perfections Corner (140) nichiconn Dear Friends, ch. 2 of TA Sujin Boriharnwanaket's "The Perfections in Daily Life" continues: Siila is twofold: as avoidance (vaaritta) and as performance (caaritta). Siila as avoidance is abstaining from evil. Siila as performance is the right conduct one should follow. We may abstain from akusala and not transgress the precepts, but with regard to siila as performance (caaritta), we should consider the Bodhisatta's conduct, so that we shall further develop kusala. We read further on: "Herein, at the appropriate time, a bodhisattva practises salutation, rising up, giving respectful greetings (a~njali), and observing courteous conduct towards good friends worthy of reverence. At the appropriate time he renders them service, and he waits upon them when they are sick. When he receives wellspoken advice he expresses his appreciation. He praises the noble qualities of the virtuous and patiently endures the abuse of antagonists. He remembers help rendered to him by others, rejoices in their merits, dedicates his own merits to the supreme enlightenment, and always abides diligently in the practice of wholesome states. When he commits a transgression he acknowledges it as such and confesses it to his co-religionists. Afterwards he perfectly fulfils the right practice. "He is adroit and nimble in fulfilling his duties towards beings when these are conducive to their good. He serves as their companion. When beings are afflicted with the suffering of disease, etc., he prepares the appropriate remedy. He dispels the sorrow of those afflicted by the loss of wealth, etc.- Of a helpful disposition, he restrains with Dhamma those who need to be restrained, rehabilitates them from unwholesome ways, and establishes them in wholesome courses of conduct. He inspires with Dhamma those in need of inspiration. And when he hears about the loftiest, most difficult, inconceivably powerful deeds of the great bodhisattvas of the past, issuing in the ultimate welfare and happiness of beings, by means of which they reached perfect maturity in the requisites of enlightenment, he does not become agitated and alarmed, but reflects: 'Those Great Beings were only human beings. But by developing themselves through the orderly fulfilment of the training they attained the loftiest spiritual power and the highest perfection in the requisites of enlightenment. I, too, should practise the same training in virtue, etc. In that way I, too, will gradually fulfil the training and in the end attain the same state.' Then, with unflagging energy preceded by this faith, he perfectly fulfils the training in virtue, etc. .. to be continued, connie #85227 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri May 2, 2008 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive jonoabb Hi TG > There are certainly many references to dhammas, but there are also > references to 'dyads' and it is these rather than the dhammas to which > the description "moving and tottering" is applied. > ........................................................ > > > TG: OK, I hate to be THIS blunt, here's where I need the (moral) help > because I feel like I've enter BIZZARRO LAND. The "dyad" is the sense base and > the sense object...it is these that are moving and tottering. To assert that > it is not the sense base and sense object that are being referred to, and to > assert that there is something else called a "dyad" that is being referred to, > as opposed to the constituents of said "dyad," has reached a new dimension > in ridiculous rhetorical evasiveness ... apparently in an attempt to defend > some commentarial doctrinal dogma. If one sets up these road blocks, it not > only hurt themselves and their own insight, it hurts anyone else that might > buy into it. > Well I was only responding on the narrow point of your assertion that the sutta passage you quoted mentions only dhammas and not conventional objects. Clearly a dyad, regardless of how many dhammas are involved, is not a dhamma. And equally clearly, to me at least, the attributes of "moving and tottering" apply to those dyads (and are not included in the descriptions given in the other contexts where only dhammas are mentioned). Now as to the significance of al this, well I didn't attempt to go into that. > I am not sure what the "things" being referred to in the second sentence > are - dhammas or dyads (or something else).] > .................................................................... > > TG: LOL Hellooooooooo It is exactly what is being described that is > being referred to. I.E., Elements!!! Aggregates!!!! I have to give you > credit though....at least you didn't just dodge this content !!!!!!!!!!!! > > It seems that attachment to other views makes it difficult to see the most > plain and straightforward of teachings by the Buddha... teachings dealing > directly with elements and aggregates. And yes, they don't jibe with some of the > Abhidhamma commentarial stuff that gets adhered to. > I'm not saying I don't have attachment to views, but regardless of what my own views may be I am only stating what I understand to be the orthodox commentarial interpretation of the suttas. I have confidence that the commentarial view is worth studying and coming to understand in more detail. So far I have not found any inconsistency with the suttas themselves. Jon #85228 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 2, 2008 7:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nilovg Hi Howard, Op 2-mei-2008, om 15:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Could you please give me the message number? I'll then read it > carefully. ------- No 85212. I find it good reading. Nina. #85229 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 7:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 walterhorn Dear Ken (and Howard), Thanks for your response. As I've indicated in a couple of past posts, it's hard for me to get too involved in detailed discussions of this sort, not only because I'm not familiar with much of the terminology, but, perhaps more importantly, because issues that to me seem empirical are sometimes considered here more as matters of correct textual exigesis. I'll give a couple of examples that may make it easier to see what I mean by this. > But that is not how it works. Higher levels of samatha and vipassana > develop from lower levels of samatha and vipassana. They do not > develop from craving, or from conceit or wrong view. Sitting with > desire for results, or with ideas of being a wonderful person, or > with wrong view of the controllability of mental development, will > only develop into more of the same akusala. I would take this to be an empirical matter, but it seems that, for you, it is derivable from various textual citations. There is also this: > In the postscript, Howard completely misses the point. He says that > his formal meditation practices are "like streams that refresh the > mind and that water and sustain the entire practice." But, no, the > practice is the arising of panna (right understanding). And panna > always (automatically) conditions calm and energy to arise with it. > It not some kind of hard slog that needs support from outside. > It seems to me again that this is a matter of Howard saying something like "This helps me; perhaps it may help others too." and the response being something like "I'm sorry, Howard, but you must be mistaken: it simply cannot help, since, the only activities that really do help must directly involve right understanding, which meditation does not. Thus, this apparent assistance you're receiving must be a phantom." Put simply, Howard's claim is an empirical, yours is not. Your claim is apparently made based upon axioms found in various texts (with which I'm mostly unfamiliar) that cannot be gainsaid by anything in Howard's or anyone else's experience that are not connected with similar textual analysis. Thus, I'm not really in a position to contribute, and, even if I could, I'm not sure how such contributions would be received, since I'm unlikely to have the appropriate attitude toward the texts being cited. I therefore think it's better for my participation here to be limited to asking basic questions about how various passages quoted here should be construed. I do admit, however, that I've strayed a bit from that course at times, and I very much appreciate the time and trouble several of the regulars have taken to answer my posts (which must sometimes seem as if they're coming from some valley on Mars). Best, Walto #85230 From: "connie" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 7:59 am Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nichiconn Dear Nina and Howard, > INCEPTION OF DISCIPLINE and VINAYA-NIDANA - {cut} ------- N: Connie, did you type out all this or is it on line? Appreciating your work. Howard, you remember our debate about the Co. comparing the three parts of the Tipitaka and you found it indigestable (and worse :-)). Now, not to start another debate (we both have lack of time), when reading the whole text given by Connie in her post to James, do you still find it unacceptable? c: Thank you, Nina. It is available in different formats from: http://www.archive.org/details/sacredbooksofbud21londuoft I think their B/W PDF versions, which allow text selection and copy, are the best choice. The considerably smaller size of the text files is at the expense of 'book look' things like footnote numbers in the text portion. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Could you please give me the message number? I'll then read it carefully. ====================== c: #85212 peace, connie #85231 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri May 2, 2008 5:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct Knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive TGrand458@... Hi Jon In a message dated 5/2/2008 8:17:02 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi TG > There are certainly many references to dhammas, but there are also > references to 'dyads' and it is these rather than the dhammas to which > the description "moving and tottering" is applied. > ............ .... .... .... .... ... > > > TG: OK, I hate to be THIS blunt, here's where I need the (moral) help > because I feel like I've enter BIZZARRO LAND. The "dyad" is the sense base and > the sense object...it is these that are moving and tottering. To assert that > it is not the sense base and sense object that are being referred to, and to > assert that there is something else called a "dyad" that is being referred to, > as opposed to the constituents of said "dyad," has reached a new dimension > in ridiculous rhetorical evasiveness ... apparently in an attempt to defend > some commentarial doctrinal dogma. If one sets up these road blocks, it not > only hurt themselves and their own insight, it hurts anyone else that might > buy into it. > Well I was only responding on the narrow point of your assertion that the sutta passage you quoted mentions only dhammas and not conventional objects. Clearly a dyad, regardless of how many dhammas are involved, is not a dhamma. And equally clearly, to me at least, the attributes of "moving and tottering" apply to those dyads (and are not included in the descriptions given in the other contexts where only dhammas are mentioned). ........................................................ TG: Now you are contradicting your last post where you mentioned that the terms moving and tottering, etc ARE APPLIED to feelings, intentions, perception, etc. and that you couldn't figure that out. So are you just "reinventing" your argument here or what? As for the dyads. The dyad IS the sense-base and the sense-object. There IS NOT some other new property called a dyad. Your points here are just ridiculous, to put it politely. And the reason they are ridiculous is that you are following a ridiculous "dhammas model" that does not appropriately reflect what is really happening in nature. Nor does it accurately represent the teachings in the Suttas. Question... Would "false views" be something that you would think could -- conditionally arise? Or something that the terms -- impermanence, suffering, or nonself would rightfully apply to? Just curious. ....................................................... Now as to the significance of al this, well I didn't attempt to go into that. > I am not sure what the "things" being referred to in the second sentence > are - dhammas or dyads (or something else).] > ............ .... .... .... .... .... .... > > TG: LOL Hellooooooooo It is exactly what is being described that is > being referred to. I.E., Elements!!! Aggregates!! being referred to. I.E., > credit though....at least you didn't just dodge this content !!!!!!!!!!!! > > It seems that attachment to other views makes it difficult to see the most > plain and straightforward of teachings by the Buddha... teachings dealing > directly with elements and aggregates. And yes, they don't jibe with some of the > Abhidhamma commentarial stuff that gets adhered to. > I'm not saying I don't have attachment to views, but regardless of what my own views may be I am only stating what I understand to be the orthodox commentarial interpretation of the suttas. I have confidence that the commentarial view is worth studying and coming to understand in more detail. So far I have not found any inconsistency with the suttas themselves. .................................................... TG: No contradiction eh? I've pointed out dozens. This very topic shows massive and deep contradiction. Yet you don't see them somehow. Whatever. TG OUT #85232 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 2, 2008 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Thanks! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 5/2/2008 10:49:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 2-mei-2008, om 15:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Could you please give me the message number? I'll then read it > carefully. ------- No 85212. I find it good reading. Nina. #85233 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 2, 2008 5:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 5/2/2008 10:49:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 2-mei-2008, om 15:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Could you please give me the message number? I'll then read it > carefully. ------- No 85212. I find it good reading. Nina. ===================================== I have read the post, and I'm sorry to say thatIi do not like the quoted material. (I copy it at the end.) I object to the dismissing of the Sutta Pitaka as "the popular teachings" and I object to attributing exclusively to the 3rd basket "ultimate truth" and "the training in higher wisdom". I consider the Sutta Pitaka to include the entire Dhamma - all the wisdom that the Buddha deemed necessary. I consider it to contain depths beyond depths of wisdom. IMO, it is the uncontestable teaching of the Buddha, and it is far from just "popular teachings". With metta, Howard 25. Here follows the explanation and elucidation. These three Pitakas, indeed, according to formal analyses are said to be the authoritative injunctions, the popular teachings, and the ultimate truth respectively ; or they are the discourses necessitated by transgressions, those adapted to circumstances, and those set out in accordance with reality respectively ; or again, discourses on the various categories of restraint, on the refutation of heresies, and on the distinction between Name and Form, respectively. Herein, the Vinayapitaka is called the exposition of injunctions as it has been preached with a preponderance of authority by the Exalted One in whom all authority is vested ; the Suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has been preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics ; and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of ultimate truth as it has been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is adept in the absolute truths. [22] Likewise, the first is called the teaching necessitated by transgressions wherein those beings who are given to many misdeeds are admonished in accordance with the nature of their offences ; the second, that adapted to circumstances wherein beings who are given to divers dispositions, latent tendencies, and traits of character are admonished in accordance with their adaptability ; and the third, that set out in accordance with reality wherein beings who conceive of an ego and what pertains to it, only in the presence of a pile of conditions, are instructed in terms of the absolute truth. Similarly, the first is called discourse on the various categories of restraint as in it are discussed all aspects of restraint, which are diametrically opposed to remissness in conduct ; the second, discourse on the refutation of heresies as in it is discussed the unravelling of perverse views, which is diametrically opposed to the sixty-two heretical theories ; and the third, discourse on the distinction between Name and Form as in it is discussed the differentiation of Name and Form which is diametrically opposed to lust and other evil tendencies. 26. It should be known that in these three are the threefold training, the threefold avoidance, and the fourfold profundity. Hence the training in the higher morality is specifically discussed in the Vinayapitaka, the training in higher thought in the Suttapitaka, and the training in higher wisdom in the Abhidhammapitaka. In the Vinayapitaka is taught the avoidance of transgression, as transgression in defilements is diametrically opposed to morality ; in the Suttapitaka the avoidance of prepossession, as prepossession is diametrically opposed to concentration ; in the Abhidhammapitaka, the avoidance of latent bias, as latent bias is diametrically opposed to wisdom. In the first is the categorical avoidance of defilements and in the others the avoidance consisting of elimination and eradication. In the first is the avoidance of the defilement of misconduct : in the others that of the defilements of craving and misbelief. And in each of them the fourfold profundity of the Dhamma, of the meaning, of the exposition, and of the comprehension, should be known. Herein the Dhamma is the Sacred Texts, the meaning is its precise meaning, the exposition is the verbal preaching of the Sacred Texts which have been established in the mind, and the comprehension is the correct understanding of the Sacred Texts and the meaning of the Sacred Texts. And in these three (Pitakas) [23] the Dhamma, the meaning, the exposition, and the comprehension are difficult of access to men of little wit and providing no basis of support even as the great ocean is to hares and such animals ; and hence they are profound. In this manner, herein, should the fourfold profundity too of each one of them be understood. #85234 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 2, 2008 11:47 am Subject: What I heard. Old Age. nilovg Dear friends, This is the transcription of a Thai session In Bangkok at the Foundation. Khun Sujin: We cannot hasten the development of pa~n~naa, we have accumulated ignorance for so long. If one has not listened to the Dhamma, there is the idea of self, no matter what we are doing: I see, I hear. There is dhamma, reality, all the time, but we do not understand that it is dhamma that appears. We desire to understand a great deal, but we forget that there is dhamma at this moment. There is dhamma that listens, there is reality that arises and falls away. We cling to the names of realities. Each day accidents happen, but there need not be worry how it could occur. Kamma is the cause of unpleasant sense experiences. We believe that it is me or this or that person who is involved in an accident. Nina: It is difficult to apply the Dhamma when an accident happens. Kh S: And now? Is there an accident? When there is an accident there are nama and rupa. When there is an accident something happens that we did not foresee. It is like now: dhamma is dhamma. There is seeing and thinking. We think of the death of dear ones and there is forgetfulness of realities, no sati. We say that it is difficult to be mindful in such situations, but also now it is difficult to be mindful. Nina: But Lodewijk and I are getting older and I am thinking about this. I study and consider the Dhamma, but what shall we do if something serious happens to us. Kh S: We should not wait for that moment or think that we have to prepare for it. There is this moment now. N: I do not really grasp it that there is no person, only nama dhamma and rupa dhamma. Kh S: You have to listen more and then you will have more understanding. N: But it takes a long time before we understand the truth. Kh S: Each day dhamma is dhamma. We have dear people, people who are close to us, but dhamma arises and then falls away. Seeing has fallen away and there is nothing left. Thinking, all dhammas fall away completely. This is not different from the moment a dear person dies. We are thinking about a dear person but thinking falls away completely. Everything is dhamma now. Understanding depends on conditions. We are inclined to think of concepts, about people and events. If there are conditions for the arising of sati it can know the characteristics of realities. There can be right understanding that all dhammas are anatta. N: It is so difficult. Kh S: Surely, but pa~n~naa can arise and it can accumulate. It is not a matter of ‘doing something’ but of understanding. Everyone would like to have pa~n~naa, but the moment of understanding is pa~n~naa. When a reality appears pa~n~naa can know the truth. Do not try to have it. At this moment it can be known to what extent pa~n~naa has developed. ********** Nina. #85235 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 2, 2008 11:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nilovg Hi Howard, Op 2-mei-2008, om 18:46 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I have read the post, and I'm sorry to say thatIi do not like the > quoted > material. (I copy it at the end.) I object to the dismissing of the > Sutta > Pitaka as "the popular teachings" and I object to attributing > exclusively to > the 3rd basket "ultimate truth" and "the training in higher > wisdom". I consider > the Sutta Pitaka to include the entire Dhamma - all the wisdom that > the > Buddha deemed necessary. -------- N: It is the translation 'popular teachings' that you stumble over. Let me research together with Connie and Scott the Pali text. In the back of the book is the Pali, but this takes time. I get the meaning. In the suttas the Buddha used conventional language (vohara) to explain deep truths to be understood by those who were able to be led to enlightenment. Yes, in the suttas we find deep truth and they point all the time to ultimate realities. I agree with you that the suttanta includes the entire Dhamma. There were differences in the way of presentation in general and all that is said here in the text is said in a general way. It is a general typification. That is all. Of course there is Abhidhamma also in the Vinaya and the Sutta. I am interested to know what Connie thinks. Nina. #85236 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 2, 2008 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 nilovg Dear Walto, Op 2-mei-2008, om 16:53 heeft Walter Horn het volgende geschreven: > I do admit, however, that I've strayed a > bit from that course at times, and I very much appreciate the time > and trouble several of the regulars have taken to answer my posts > (which must sometimes seem as if they're coming from some valley on > Mars). -------- N: No, this is not so. I find your Q. helped me to get deeper into the subject. This is often the case, I find. Do not hesitate to ask any Q. Nina. #85237 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 2, 2008 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (140) nilovg Dear Connie, Op 2-mei-2008, om 15:38 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > And when he hears about the loftiest, most difficult, inconceivably > powerful deeds of the great bodhisattvas of the past, issuing in > the ultimate welfare and happiness of beings, by means of which > they reached perfect maturity in the requisites of enlightenment, > he does not become agitated and alarmed, but reflects: 'Those Great > Beings were only human beings. But by developing themselves through > the orderly fulfilment of the training they attained the loftiest > spiritual power and the highest perfection in the requisites of > enlightenment. I, too, should practise the same training in virtue, > etc. -------- N: I find this very good: 'Those Great Beings were only human beings." The Bodhisatta did not become agitated or discouraged. Lodewijk said the other day: the dhamma is so difficult he feels like giving up. I said to him that he then thinks of: self who cannot grasp it. He agreed. 'Self" wants to have more understanding, and that is desire. What would you answer to Lodewijk? Nina. #85238 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 2, 2008 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/2/2008 2:57:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Of course there is Abhidhamma also in the Vinaya and the Sutta. ============================== I would put it differently. I would say "Of course there is Dhamma also in the Vinaya and the Abhidhamma." ;-) With metta, Howard #85239 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 2, 2008 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (140) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/2/2008 3:13:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Lodewijk said the other day: the dhamma is so difficult he feels like giving up. I said to him that he then thinks of: self who cannot grasp it. He agreed. 'Self" wants to have more understanding, and that is desire. What would you answer to Lodewijk? =============================== I would answer that two, seemingly opposite virtues need to be developed in tandem: 1) Energetic application of attention to whatever arises, and 2) Calm patience that lets go of expectations. So long as practice continues, what should be done is being done. But when grasping at anticipated results is in effect, practice is sabotaged. Permitting the mind to be calm and patient yet dedicatedly and persistently aware is what I see as needed. Patience is part of practice. It fosters an equanimity that enhances mindfulness and clarity, leading to wisdom. Seeing Dhamma practice as too difficult is merely thinking. It's not reality - it's just a story. Let the thinking take care of the thinking - it's neither you nor yours. It's an impersonal happening that you can be aware of without getting caught up in it. Mindfulness makes it possible to not get lost in thought but stay present without involvement, and that purifies and calms the mind and is basic Dhamma practice. So long as practice occurs, nothing more could be asked for. Forget about the destination - just stay on the road, and enjoy the sights along the way. :-) With metta, Howard #85240 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 2:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan m_nease Hi Sarah, Sorry for the delay, just catching up: sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > --- mlnease@... wrote: >> >S: It's like right concentration....I've heard it >> > said that any concentration that appears now is bound to >> > be wrong (aksuala) concentration. The characteristic of >> > right concentration only appears at stages of vipassana >> > nana which is why it is said to be 'yoked' to panna at >> > such times. >> >>M: Are you referring to a specific mental factor or >> [speaking] conventionally? > ... > S: I was referring to ekaggata cetasika, samma samadhi of the path. Thanks, I thought so. Just wanted to clarify one point--since ekaggata is a universal mental factor, it must arise with all kusala cittas (as well as akusala etc.), correct? Then it seems to me that ekaggata that appears now is not bound to be akusala (though of course that's most likely); it's just bound not to be sammaa samadhi of the eightfold path. Or have I got this wrong? > Sarah > p.s again, appreciated #85086. I find your way of explanation very > helpful. Thanks Sarah, my pleasure. mike #85241 From: "Chew" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandha Yamaka - Study Report 23 chewsadhu Dear Nina and Sarah, I have found the place where Sayadaw explained on the di.t.thisa~n~naa in his talks. Below is an online MP3 player: http://boomp3.com/listen/f7cd5yn/wrongviewbasedonperception or if you want to download the MP3 file: http://www.mediafire.com/?geedmiemmyy Sis Nina, will you come to Penang again to conduct Abhidhamma lecture? With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chew, > Op 22-apr-2008, om 17:17 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > > To listen to what my teacher said: > > at Youtube > ------- > > N: Difficult to listen, the sound was not clear enough. > I am thinking about it why it is that di.t.thi is especially > mentioned in connection with sa~n~naa. Is it because sa~n~naa is so > powerful in our thinking? We remember things in the wrong way. Could > you ask your teacher? I think you must have a good Abhidhamma > teacher. Decads ago I had contacts with the Buddhis University in > Penang. How is it doing now? I wrote letters to the students. Here is > one sample if you like to read it: < http://www.abhidhamma.org/ > lett2.html > > Nina. > #85242 From: "Alex" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Jhana requires panna! (B-2) truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > I'm with you all the way up to this last sentence, which I'm still > trying to figure out. Is it a matter of 'car' as 'designation' and > 'car' as 'concept'? I'm not sure I see any distinction. > > > Of course, by neither name can they be the bases of insight, by my > > reading of the texts. > > This is the certainly how I see it. > > Jon > With all due respect, IMHO it is better to focus on internal attaching to greed,anger and delusion rather than to speculate about outside events. I know it is much more interesting to talk about existence and non existence of outside world, but it is much helpful to practice to reduce greed anger and aversion, not to mention to maintain SILA and so on. Best wishes, Alex #85243 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 7:29 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 kenhowardau Hi Walto, ---------------- W: > Thanks for your response. As I've indicated in a couple of past posts, it's hard for me to get too involved in detailed discussions of this sort, not only because I'm not familiar with much of the terminology, but, perhaps more importantly, because issues that to me seem empirical are sometimes considered here more as matters of correct textual exigesis. I'll give a couple of examples that may make it easier to see what I mean by this. > > But that is not how it works. Higher levels of samatha and vipassana > develop from lower levels of samatha and vipassana. They do not > develop from craving, or from conceit or wrong view. Sitting with > desire for results, or with ideas of being a wonderful person, or > with wrong view of the controllability of mental development, will > only develop into more of the same akusala. I would take this to be an empirical matter, but it seems that, for you, it is derivable from various textual citations. ------------------- Thanks, you have made your point very well. When you value this empirical evidence so highly aren't you worried by its being subjective? There are devout practitioners belonging to all walks of life who swear they have experienced proof positive. They say they have had direct, incontrovertible experiences of God, or the oneness of the universe, or alien kidnappers - or whatever the case may be. So who or what are you going to believe? Are you going to believe one of their experiences or one of your own? If one your own, why? What makes your experiences any more likely to be true than someone else's? The important point is that all these empirical experiences are just experiences, they are not understanding. With the Dhamma all progress is a matter of understanding, and no other form of experience - no matter how amazing it might be - plays any role whatsoever. In the suttas, the monks who were said to be "delighted" were delighted by right understanding of the Dhamma, they were not enjoying some kind of "far out" amazing experience. ------------------ W: > There is also this: KH: > > In the postscript, Howard completely misses the point. He says that > his formal meditation practices are "like streams that refresh the > mind and that water and sustain the entire practice." But, no, the > practice is the arising of panna (right understanding). And panna > always (automatically) conditions calm and energy to arise with it. > It not some kind of hard slog that needs support from outside. > W: > It seems to me again that this is a matter of Howard saying something like "This helps me; perhaps it may help others too." and the response being something like "I'm sorry, Howard, but you must be mistaken: it simply cannot help, ------------------ Yes, that is the way I see it. Right understanding *knows* what is right and what is wrong: there is no maybe. When the true Dhamma is known there is no concept of "maybe it will work for you, maybe it won't." -------------------------- W: > since, the only activities that really do help must directly involve right understanding, which meditation does not. Thus, this apparent assistance you're receiving must be a phantom." --------------------------- Yes, again, that is the way I see it. I couldn't have put it better myself. :-) ------------------------------------ W: > Put simply, Howard's claim is an empirical, yours is not. Your claim is apparently made based upon axioms found in various texts (with which I'm mostly unfamiliar) that cannot be gainsaid by anything in Howard's or anyone else's experience that are not connected with similar textual analysis. ------------------------------------- Not sure I follow that part. I would agree that our own experiences (or our own interpretations of them) were not to be trusted. If they were to be trusted then we wouldn't need a Buddha. The Buddha taught things "not known before," he did not validate the preconceived theories of uninstructed-worldlings . ----------------- W: > Thus, I'm not really in a position to contribute, and, even if I could, I'm not sure how such contributions would be received, since I'm unlikely to have the appropriate attitude toward the texts being cited. I therefore think it's better for my participation here to be limited to asking basic questions about how various passages quoted here should be construed. I do admit, however, that I've strayed a bit from that course at times, and I very much appreciate the time and trouble several of the regulars have taken to answer my posts (which must sometimes seem as if they're coming from some valley on Mars). ----------------- Isn't it the same for you? I take it that, until now, you have been aware only of conventional forms of Buddhism. This "paramattha dhamma" version must seem like something from Mars. I think you will find that everyone at DSG (with one or two notable exceptions) began by thinking the Dhamma was all about sitting and concentrating, waiting for some "gee-whiz" experience to come along. Many still do. Ken H #85244 From: "Phil" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 8:46 pm Subject: Re: A question for Han about the way Dhamma is taught to householders in Asia philofillet Hello Han I have had a chance to read your post more thoroughly > Han: > (1) My experience is limited to the teachings by the Sayadaws in Burma only, and I am not able to talk about teachings in other Asian countries. Sayadaws in Burma teach the householders the same teachings taught by the Buddha to the householders as well as the monks. But Sayadaws use less Pali words and more day to day language so that the lay persons can understand. And they emphasize on those activities that the householders can manage easily. For example, there is a play of Burmese word “nay-zinâ€?E If one pronounces with one tone it means “dailyâ€?E When it is pronounced with another tone, it means “whileâ€?Eâ€?Ewhile one is doing this or that. One Sayadaw said that if a person is mindful of the three characteristics of conditioned things while he is undertaking various worldly activities, as much as he can throughout the day, it is better than meditating for one hour daily and living heedlessly the rest of the day. Ph: Thank you. Very interesting. As you know, I have listened to sayadaws quite a lot (well, not enough.) You wrote : "One Sayadaw said that if a person is mindful of the three characteristics of conditioned things while he is undertaking various worldly activities, as much as he can throughout the day, it is better than meditating for one hour daily and living heedlessly the rest of the day." Yes, I would agree with that. The good thing about meditation is that, in my experience anyways, it conditions more living heedfully the rest of the day, which is to say that a person who meditates faithfully an hour a day (which I don't alas, not an hour) is far less likely to find him or herself swept away by unwise attention, there is far more resilience to objects. This is my fairly consistent experience, anyways. The morning meditation sets up more heedfulness during the day. It just happens. Fairly uncontestable, I think. No guarantees, of course. One's accumulated akusala can and will arise at any time. But we are talking about improved probabilities here. I'm sure many members of DSG would scoff at talk of "improved probabilities" but I find it a lot in the Buddha's teaching. The best example is probably the salt in the water simile. The more water, the less salt. That is all about improved probabilities. As far "mindful of the three characteristics" this is something that is stressed a lot by most teachers, but I am dubious of it because I think it is deep if there is real mindfulness of it, and rare, but that we just think about it in daily life a lot. That'S fine. But I would call it "thinking about the characteristics", conceptualizing on them rather than being mindful of them. But that is just my doubt these days. That's fine. > > > (2) As regards what I am doing, my guiding principle is Dhammapada verse 183: Not to do evil, to cultivate merit, to purify one’s mind â€?Ethis is the Teaching of the Buddhas. I practice breathing meditation and buddhaanussati with prayer beads (on-cushion), and to be mindful of the three characteristics of naama and ruupas as much as I can throughout the day (off-cushion). Among the three characteristics anicca is the most preferred one. Ph: Again, I am doubtful about being mindful of characteristics of nama and rupa in daily life. I guess it comes down to what Jon once called my "trouble with satipatthana." Yes, I do not believe in satipatthana in daily life now, or at least I don't believe in it as something we should ever profess to be after. I think AS and her students are far too interested in satipatthana in daily life for their own good and thereby create obstacles to true satipatthana. But that is just my thing. You once so helpfully said "I think some of our friends are not interested enough in sati" and that had a hugely beneficial impact on me, thank you. Thank you! Thank you! Now perhaps you will have an impact on me by saying something like "I think Phil does not have enough faith in satipatthana in daily life" or something like that! So I will keep reading your posts. I like your posts because you are able to see the good points in what AS has to say while questioning the points you have doubts about. There are a lot of good points in what she has to say. For me, alas, the horribly incorrect points (such things as "what good is it to no kusala from akusala if we do not not all dhammas are not-self") blind me to the good points. But I do not think it will always be like that. I won't be here much during the summer (computer time is consume by baseball) but I look forward to discussing more with you come Fall. In the meantime, I will reflect on what you say about "being mindful of the three characteristics" in daily life and perhaps as with other things you have said to me it will begin to have that beneficial impact. > At one time I was afraid of unhappy rebirth. That was the time I first read about kamma. On page 203 of A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, kamma by order of ripening is described. With respect to the order in which the effect of kamma takes place, there are four kinds of kamma, namely, weighty kamma (garuka kamma), death- proximate kamma (aasanna kamma), habitual kamma (aacinna kamma), and reserve kamma (katattaa kamma). Of the four, aasanna kamma is the one which will determine either happy rebirth or unhappy rebirth. At that time I even raised the question: if one cultivates good aacinna or habitual kamma can it not overrule a bad aasanna kamma at the time of death? But now, I do not think about these kamma any more. I do not have any expectations. Whatever will be, will be. I will do my very best to avoid evil and to cultivate merit, and I will not worry about the rebirth which I have no control. I have no expectations any more now. I will do my > best and leave the results to my kamma. > Phil: Right, not to worry about it because we have no direct control over that key kamma that arises to decide rebirth. But there is so much we can do to improve the probabilities. In AS talks, there is always a lot about how even if we have wholesome behaviour consistently in this one lifetime, a misded from some past existence can decide the rebirth, and I don't doubt that this is correct. But when one reads and reflects on Anguttara Nikaya it is very clear that the Buddha places much greater emphasis on *this* lifetime and what we can do. I have never seen a sutta saying anything along the lines of "don't cling to doing good in this one lifetime because all that can be wiped out by one deed from a previous lifetime." No. No! The Buddha again and again stresses the importance of moral behaviour in this one lifetime for providing refuge from fear at the time of death, confidence in "happy destinations" etc. Thank again, Han. Talk to you later. Metta, Phil #85245 From: "Phil" Date: Fri May 2, 2008 8:52 pm Subject: Re: A question for Han about the way Dhamma is taught to householders in Asia philofillet Hi again >For me, alas, the > horribly incorrect points (such things as "what good is it to no > kusala from akusala if we do not not all dhammas are not-self") > blind me to the good points. But I do not think it will always be > like that. Correction. She said "what good is it to know kusala from akusala if we do not know all dhammas are not-self" or something like that. It would be hard to sit down and think up a more succint demonstration of wrong view, in my opinion. And I will leave you there. Her students can reflect on it, if there are conditions for them to do so. (Of course I don't doubt that all dhammas are not- self, but to suggest that insight into anatta must precede sila -and her students can deny that what she is doing here if they want - is almost obscene.) Metta, Phil #85246 From: han tun Date: Fri May 2, 2008 11:30 pm Subject: Re: A question for Han about the way Dhamma is taught to householders in Asia hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your valuable feedbacks. I appreciate your looking forward to discussing more with me later. Not to take too much of your time, I have only two brief points to say in agreement with you. (1) I agree with you that the good thing about meditation is that, it conditions more living heedfully the rest of the day, which is to say that a person who meditates faithfully an hour a day is far less likely to find him or herself swept away by unwise attention, there is far more resilience to objects. Sayadaw’s only concern was one might take a daily meditation as a duty that one performs like other daily duties of a householder, and not that faithfully as you have described. If a person meditates faithfully what you said is very correct in that he/she is less likely to live heedlessly for the rest of the day. (2) I agree with your doubt about being mindful of characteristics of nama and rupa in daily life. For example, even when I am busy doing something, I can still take note of my breathing, and when I observe the end of out-breath and the beginning of in-breath, I would consider the end of the out-breath as anicca. That contemplation of anicca might not be the correct way. I might be contemplating on the anicca of pannatti rather than that of paramattha dhammas. I do not know for sure. But at least I think I can have samvega, if not vipassana ~naana. Half a loaf is better than none, don’t you think? Respectfully, Han #85247 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan kenhowardau Hi Howard, -------- H: > To me, ignoring aggregations of interacting dhammas is ignoring important aspects of reality. -------- I realise the term "five khandhas" is often translated as "five aggregates" but I see no connection between them and your use of the word 'aggregation.' I don't think the Tipitaka refers anywhere to a number of isolated namas and rupas being grouped together to form "an aggregation." A concept such as walking is to be seen as just a concept. I don't know of any instruction to see walking as an aggregation. The monks in the Satipatthana sutta knew walking (etc) as it really was - they knew that at all times there were only dhammas. I feel sure there was never any intention in the sutta to imply that the monks saw 'walking' was a number of specific dhammas acting inter-relatedly to form the action, walking. How could you ever decide which dhammas they were? What would be their common factor? ------------------------ <. . .> KH: > > I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying there has to be such things as people and keyboards? > > H: > Not if one is happy with pretending to interact with hallucinations! ;-)) ------------------------- Does the teaching of anatta apply to your non-hallucinations? I think you are going to tell me people and keyboards are to be seen as complex webs of inter-related dhammas. But that is not the Dhamma. What happens when the inter-relationships end? Are the aggregations annihilated? Or are they perpetuated by subsequent inter-relating dhammas? What is the difference between an aggregation and an abiding self? -------------- <. . > H: > I understand you to say that there is ever and only the sole same moment (whatever a "moment" may be). ----------------- I don't know how you could get it so wrong. Where have I ever said anything like that? A citta is conditioned to arise: it falls away, and another citta is conditioned to arise. That is how I understand the process, and I am sure that is how all other Abhidhamma students understand it. It is so simple I don't know how there could be any confusion. Ken H #85248 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 3, 2008 3:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard. Old Age. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Thank you for transcribing the Thai recording and sharing it. Full of gems, like this one below! --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Nina: But Lodewijk and I are getting older and I am thinking about > this. I study and consider the Dhamma, but what shall we do if > something serious happens to us. > > Kh S: We should not wait for that moment or think that we have to > prepare for it. There is this moment now. ...... Metta, Sarah ======== #85249 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 3, 2008 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > > S: I was referring to ekaggata cetasika, samma samadhi of the path. > M:> Thanks, I thought so. Just wanted to clarify one point--since ekaggata > is a universal mental factor, it must arise with all kusala cittas (as > well as akusala etc.), correct? .... S: Yes. ... >Then it seems to me that ekaggata that > appears now is not bound to be akusala (though of course that's most > likely); it's just bound not to be sammaa samadhi of the eightfold path. > Or have I got this wrong? .... S: As I understand, just because a dhamma arises all the time like ekaggata or phassa, does not mean that it appears now. In other words, There are conditions for what arises in a day (and as you say, ekaggata arises with every citta) and then there are other conditions for what appears as object of mind-door processes and what is object of sati now (if anything). Because akusala ekaggata is so very much more common in a day than kusala, this may be why the concentration that is apparent is much more likely to be (a nimitta of) such akusla concentration. For example, it may be apparent that there's some concentration involved whilst chopping the vegetables, driving the car, surfing or even checking the Pali of a text. Is it kusala or akusala? It may be a generalisation, but when I heard this (that the concentration which appears now is akusala concentration), it immediately made sense to me. What do you think? It's an interesting point. Metta, Sarah p.s Slow responses and delays are fine. =========== #85250 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 4:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard. Old Age. szmicio Who's Khun Sujin? #85251 From: han tun Date: Sat May 3, 2008 4:32 am Subject: Re: What I heard. Old Age hantun1 Dear Sarah and Nina, > Nina: But Lodewijk and I are getting older and I am thinking about this. I study and consider the Dhamma, but what shall we do if something serious happens to us. > Kh S: We should not wait for that moment or think that we have to prepare for it. There is this moment now. Han: I can guess what Khun Sujin meant. But to be sure, can you kindly spell it out what she meant by ‘There is this moment now.’ Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han P.S. I pressed the Send button by mistake for my previous message. I am sorry. #85252 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 3, 2008 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard. Old Age nilovg Dear Han and Sarah, Op 3-mei-2008, om 13:32 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > > Kh S: We should not wait for that moment or think that we have to > prepare for it. There is this moment now. > > Han: I can guess what Khun Sujin meant. But to be sure, can you > kindly spell it out what she meant by ‘There is this moment now.’ -------- N: I first return to a previous sentence: I liked this one, it shows that there is thinking at that moment and it is best to attend to its characteristic. We may think with anxiety of the loss of beloved ones, but thinking with dosa is akusala. This reminds me of an event long ago. Our friend khun Charupan had passed away and someone asked how the cremation service was. Kh Sujin answered: just like now. We were shocked, it sounded harsh we found. Later on she explained: it is a good reminder that each dhamma that arises falls away. This happens now and also at the moment of dying or a cremation: there is just dhamma arising and falling away. Now the whole discussion I just transcribed amount to the same: We may think of sad situations and wonder what to do, but each dhamma that arises falls away, never to return. So I can repeat with a little more understanding: just like now. I also found Sarah's reminder about our friend Bron whose husband died in her arms very good. What I also found helpful, Kh Sujin said that mindfulnes in a disturbing situation is difficult, but we should not forget: mindfulness at this moment is difficult. We better learn Dhamma from this very moment. When we read the words spoken by Kh Sujin it may sometimes sound harsh, but what struck me at the sessions, her words were spoken with such great metta and compassion. Nina. #85253 From: han tun Date: Sat May 3, 2008 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard. Old Age hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah), I understand it now, and I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- On Sat, 5/3/08, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Kh Sujin said that mindfulnes in a > disturbing situation is difficult, but we should not > forget: > mindfulness at this moment is difficult. We better learn > Dhamma from > this very moment. > When we read the words spoken by Kh Sujin it may sometimes > sound > harsh, but what struck me at the sessions, her words were > spoken with > such great metta and compassion. > Nina. #85254 From: "connie" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 6:23 am Subject: Perfections Corner (141) nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing: "Again, he conceals his virtues and reveals his faults. He is few in his wishes, content, fond of solitude, aloof, capable of enduring suffering, and free from anxiety. He is not restless, puffed up, fickle, scurrilous or scattered in speech, but calm in his faculties and mind. Avoiding such wrong means of livelihood as scheming, etc., he is endowed with proper conduct and a suitable resort (for alms). He sees danger in the slightest faults, and having undertaken the rules of training, trains himself in them, energetic and resolute, without regard for body or life. He does not tolerate even the slightest concern for his body or life but abandons and dispels it; how much more, then, excessive concern? He abandons and dispels all the corruptions such as anger, malice, etc., which are the cause for moral depravity. He does not become complacent over some minor achievement of distinction and does not shrink away, but strives for successively higher achievements. In this way the achievements he gains do not partake of diminution or stagnation. "The Great Man serves as a guide for the blind, explaining to them the right path. To the deaf he gives signals with gestures of his hands, and in that way benefits them with good. So too for the dumb. To cripples he gives a chair, or a vehicle, or some other means of conveyance. He strives that the faithless may gain faith, that the lazy may generate zeal, that those of confused mindfulness may develop mindfulness, that those with wandering minds may become accomplished in concentration, and that the dull-witted may acquire wisdom. He strives to dispel sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness-and-worry, and perplexity in those obsessed by these hindrances, and to dispel wrong thoughts of sensuality, ill will, and aggression in those subjugated by these thoughts. Out of gratitude to those who have helped him, he benefits and honours them with a similar or greater benefit in return, congenial in speech and endearing in his words. "He is a companion in misfortune. Understanding the nature and character of beings, he associates with whatever beings need his presence, in whatever way they need it; and he practises together with whatever beings need to practise with him, in whatever way of practice is necessary for them. But he proceeds only by rehabilitating them from the unwholesome and establishing them in the wholesome, not in other ways. For in order to protect the minds of others, bodhisattvas behave only in ways which increase the wholesome. So too, because his inclination is to benefit others, he should never harm them, abuse them, humiliate them, arouse remorse in them, or incite them to act in ways which should be avoided. Nor should he place himself in a higher position than those who are of inferior conduct. He should be neither altogether inaccessible to others, nor too easily accessible, and he should not associate with others at the wrong time. "He associates with beings whom it is proper to associate with at the appropriate time and place. He does not criticize those who are dear to others in front of them, nor praise those who are resented by them. He is not intimate with those who are not trustworthy. He does not refuse a proper invitation, or engage in persuasion, or accept excessively." Siila of performance, caaritta siila, is subtle and refined, and we should consider it at the present moment with sati. For example, when a dear friend does something wrong, one may be off guard and blame him immediately in front of others. But when sati arises, one will wait for the proper opportunity and speak to him later on. This shows that defilements have to be worn off time and again, until they eventually will be completely eradicated. ..end of ch.2, connie #85255 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 3, 2008 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 5/3/2008 4:42:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, -------- H: > To me, ignoring aggregations of interacting dhammas is ignoring important aspects of reality. -------- I realise the term "five khandhas" is often translated as "five aggregates" but I see no connection between them and your use of the word 'aggregation.' ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The aggregates are not aggregations. They are each a collection of like dhammas - all rupas, all cases of consciousness, all instances of feeling, etc. ---------------------------------------------------- I don't think the Tipitaka refers anywhere to a number of isolated namas and rupas being grouped together to form "an aggregation." ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The terminology is mine. I never said otherwise. Dyads, BTW, which are mentioned, are examples of the simplest sort of aggregation. ------------------------------------------------------- A concept such as walking is to be seen as just a concept. I don't know of any instruction to see walking as an aggregation. The monks in the Satipatthana sutta knew walking (etc) as it really was - they knew that at all times there were only dhammas. I feel sure there was never any intention in the sutta to imply that the monks saw 'walking' was a number of specific dhammas acting inter-relatedly to form the action, walking. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Read the chariot simile, Ken. -------------------------------------------------- How could you ever decide which dhammas they were? What would be their common factor? ------------------------ <. . .> KH: > > I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying there has to be such things as people and keyboards? > > H: > Not if one is happy with pretending to interact with hallucinations! ;-)) ------------------------- Does the teaching of anatta apply to your non-hallucinations? -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Anatta applies to everything. -------------------------------------------------------- I think you are going to tell me people and keyboards are to be seen as complex webs of inter-related dhammas. But that is not the Dhamma. What happens when the inter-relationships end? Are the aggregations annihilated? ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. The interrelatedness is critical. Moreover, change occurs constantly, even while still existing as an aggregation. Your body is an aggregation, but nevfer5 an individual, though we may think of it as an individual. It undergoes constant change, and upon death the interrelationships cease,and the body decomposes and ceases to exist as a body. Note, BTW, that the term 'body' also carries the meaning of "collection". ------------------------------------------------------------- Or are they perpetuated by subsequent inter-relating dhammas? What is the difference between an aggregation and an abiding self? ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: What is the *difference*? What is the similarity?!! None whatsoever. There is no "self" even to paramattha dhammas, let alone to collections of them! ---------------------------------------------------------- -------------- <. . > H: > I understand you to say that there is ever and only the sole same moment (whatever a "moment" may be). ----------------- I don't know how you could get it so wrong. Where have I ever said anything like that? ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Then I have no clue as to what you are talking about. ---------------------------------------------------------- A citta is conditioned to arise: it falls away, and another citta is conditioned to arise. That is how I understand the process, and I am sure that is how all other Abhidhamma students understand it. It is so simple I don't know how there could be any confusion. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, YOUR writings have confused me in that regard. Yeah, sure that is the standard Abhidhammic perspective, but it has not been at all clear to me that it has been your perspective. -------------------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard #85256 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 3, 2008 6:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nilovg Hi Howard and Connie, Op 2-mei-2008, om 21:25 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Of course there is Abhidhamma also in the Vinaya and the Sutta. > ============================== > I would put it differently. I would say "Of course there is Dhamma > also > in the Vinaya and the Abhidhamma." ;-) ------ N: Howard, this is not the issue now :-)) I like to tease you a little since you often tell me this. In this context there is a comparison between the three parts of the Tipitaka: Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma. I promised the Pali: Herein, the Vinayapitaka is called the exposition of injunctions as it has been preached with a preponderance of authority by the Exalted One in whom all authority is vested; Ettha his Vinayapi.taka.m aa.naarahena bhagavata aa.naabaahullato desitattaa aa.naadesanaa. N: As to aa.na: there is ovaada pa.timokkha, the exhortation to the pa.timokkha (patience is the greatest ascetism), and there is aa.na pa.timokkha: the rules of the Vinaya. Thus, the rules of good conduct which are binding for the monks. Aa.na means authority. ------ the Suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has been preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics ; ------- N: Suttapi.taka.m vohaarakusalena bhagavataa vohaarabaahullato desitattaa vohaaradesanaa; ---------- N: The term vohaara means common language. vohaarabaahullato: emphasizing common language. vohaaradesanaa: teaching in common language. Popular ethics is not a good rendering, it seems like folklore. ------- and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of ultimate truth as it has been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is adept in the absolute truths. ------ N: Abhidhammapi.taka.m paramatthakusalena bhagavataa paramatthabaahulato desitattaaparamatthadesanaa... ------ N: Making much, emphasizing paramattha dhammas, teaching of paramattha dhammas. As to sutta teachings, this is adapted to circumstances and to the capability of the persons taught, as we read further on: < the second, that adapted to circumstances wherein beings who are given to divers dispositions, latent tendencies, and traits of character are admonished in accordance with their adaptability>. The Dhammasangani is mainly in terms of paramattha dhammas. The Vibhanga has many examples from daily life given in common way of speech. It states: this is the Suttanta method, this is the Abhidhamma method. The Book on the Elements and most of the Paathana is in terms of paramattha dhammas. #85257 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 3, 2008 7:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard. Old Age. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 3-mei-2008, om 13:04 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Who's Khun Sujin? ------- N: Our Dhamma friend and teacher. She teaches already for years by way of lectures, radio programs and meetings. I listened to her already for more than forty years. James said that she is a charismatic person, but I would say that she is someone who likes to be in the background and let others talk. She is untiring in her efforts to help others to understand the Dhamma. Not Dhamm from books, but Dhamma in real life, occuring at this moment. Nina. #85258 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 7:17 am Subject: dosa-mula-citta and deep mental unplesant feelings szmicio We talk about being at present moment, but it is very difficult to stay in this moment when there is mental unplesant feeling? I usually looking for someting pleasant. So if we talk about this moment, this reaction is ok? Lukas #85259 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 3, 2008 7:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana requires panna! (B-2) jonoabb Hi Alex Nice to see you back! >> I'm with you all the way up to this last sentence, which I'm still >> trying to figure out. Is it a matter of 'car' as 'designation' and >> 'car' as 'concept'? I'm not sure I see any distinction. >> >> >>> Of course, by neither name can they be the bases of insight, by my >>> reading of the texts. >>> >> This is the certainly how I see it. >> >> Jon >> > > With all due respect, IMHO it is better to focus on internal attaching > to greed,anger and delusion rather than to speculate about outside > events. I know it is much more interesting to talk about existence and > non existence of outside world, but it is much helpful to practice to > reduce greed anger and aversion, not to mention to maintain SILA and so > on. > I agree that 'speculating about outside events' is not the path. But neither, to my understanding, is 'focussing on internal attaching to greed, anger and delusion'. Insight is the development of understanding of the true nature and/or characteristic of a presently arising dhamma. All dhammas have the characteristic of being anicca, dukkha and anatta, and this includes the dhamma that is insight/understanding. Thus the timing of the arising of insight, and the dhamma taken as object, cannot be chosen or directed. Certainly, greed, anger and delusion are dhammas that are now taken as permanent, satisfactory and self. But there are many other dhammas, including the rupas being experienced through the sense-doors, that likewise are not seen as they truly are. So the selection of an dhamma (or group of dhammas) as the preferred object of insight is not the way to go (in my view)! Jon PS Anything to share about your recent absence? #85260 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard. Old Age. szmicio > > Who's Khun Sujin? > ------- > N: Our Dhamma friend and teacher. She teaches already for years by > way of lectures, radio programs and meetings. I listened to her > already for more than forty years. > James said that she is a charismatic person, but I would say that she > is someone who likes to be in the background and let others talk. She > is untiring in her efforts to help others to understand the Dhamma. > Not Dhamm from books, but Dhamma in real life, occuring at this moment. > Nina. Is she a member of DSG? #85261 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat May 3, 2008 3:59 am Subject: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your view? TGrand458@... Hi All The 32 body parts appear in the Satipatthana as a subject for mindfulness. All these all considered 'ultimate realities' (from your viewpoint) and are they all directly experienced? Or are we looking at yet another case of inferential knowledge being applied in the satipatthana? If they are "ultimate realities," what would make them so other than a book saying so? To me, they are parts of a system, no different than describing the parts of a car. For example...if the mind is aware of the "hardness" of a bone...isn't "bone" a concept, and "hardness" the "ultimate reality." Therefore, when the Buddha describes the "body parts," isn't he describing what you would call "concept"? Isn't mindfulness in this case, therefore, mindfulness of either "concepts" ... or mindfulness of "conceptual representations" of various Four Great Element configurations. Which BTW, if the latter, that would be the same as being mindful of a house, or mountain. Inquiring minds want to know. ;-) TG #85262 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 8:11 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 walterhorn Hi, Ken. Thanks for your detailed reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > When you value this empirical evidence so highly aren't you worried > by its being subjective? There are devout practitioners belonging to > all walks of life who swear they have experienced proof positive. > They say they have had direct, incontrovertible experiences of God, > or the oneness of the universe, or alien kidnappers - or whatever the > case may be. So who or what are you going to believe? Are you going > to believe one of their experiences or one of your own? If one your > own, why? What makes your experiences any more likely to be true than > someone else's? > > The important point is that all these empirical experiences are just > experiences, they are not understanding. > > With the Dhamma all progress is a matter of understanding, and no > other form of experience - no matter how amazing it might be - plays > any role whatsoever. In the suttas, the monks who were said to > be "delighted" were delighted by right understanding of the Dhamma, > they were not enjoying some kind of "far out" amazing experience. These are epistemological questions. That's an area in which I'm much more comfortable than explication of the Dhamma. I don't think, though, that this is the best place for a discussion of that type. I'd be happy to bat this back and forth with you off-list, if you'd like to, or, if you'd care to put these questions on either the Analytic Philosophy or Analytic Philosophy-Borders Of list (I belong to both), you might get plenty of action there. I'll just say here that claims according to which appeals to authority trump appeals to experience and/or reason have never fared particularly well among either philsophers or scientists. > > I would agree that our own experiences > (or our own interpretations of them) were not to be trusted. If they > were to be trusted then we wouldn't need a Buddha. The Buddha taught > things "not known before," he did not validate the preconceived > theories of uninstructed-worldlings . I would think you'd need to trust your experience to even know there was a Buddha. > Isn't it the same for you? I take it that, until now, you have been > aware only of conventional forms of Buddhism. This "paramattha > dhamma" version must seem like something from Mars. That's true to some extent, but I should point out that I find the attitude (rather than the particular doctine) of complete assurance quite common everywhere. For example, I know quite a bit about Spinoza (I did my Ph.D. dissertation on him some years back), but I had the same kind of "outcast experience" when I joined the Yahoo Spinoza list when I discovered that, for many, his every word must be treated as gospel, and to doubt the validity of any argument in 'The Ethics' is to commit a kind of blasphemy. I'm sure members of many Christian or Muslim lists have similar views of their heroes and their teachings. I want to stress, though, that my treatment here has been much kinder than it was on the Spinoza list. I think that may be partly because I'm more acutely aware of my ignorance in these quarters, but I think it's also due in large part to the fact that many of the regulars here are simply more welcoming and open to different views than elsewhere. I guess you could say that there's more metta in this neighborhood. As I've said before, I really appreciate that. > I think you will find that everyone at DSG (with one or two notable > exceptions) began by thinking the Dhamma was all about sitting and > concentrating, waiting for some "gee-whiz" experience to come along. > Many still do. > You may be right: I have no idea. But I don't think either Howard or I ought to be considered guilty of that sin anyhow--at least not based on any recent posts. Best, Walto #85263 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 3, 2008 4:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Connie) - In a message dated 5/3/2008 9:53:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Connie, Op 2-mei-2008, om 21:25 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Of course there is Abhidhamma also in the Vinaya and the Sutta. > ============================== > I would put it differently. I would say "Of course there is Dhamma > also > in the Vinaya and the Abhidhamma." ;-) ------ N: Howard, this is not the issue now :-)) I like to tease you a little since you often tell me this. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) ------------------------------------------------ In this context there is a comparison between the three parts of the Tipitaka: Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma. I promised the Pali: Herein, the Vinayapitaka is called the exposition of injunctions as it has been preached with a preponderance of authority by the Exalted One in whom all authority is vested; Ettha his Vinayapi.taka.m aa.naarahena bhagavata aa.naabaahullato desitattaa aa.naadesanaa. N: As to aa.na: there is ovaada pa.timokkha, the exhortation to the pa.timokkha (patience is the greatest ascetism), and there is aa.na pa.timokkha: the rules of the Vinaya. Thus, the rules of good conduct which are binding for the monks. Aa.na means authority. ------ the Suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has been preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics ; ------- N: Suttapi.taka.m vohaarakusalena bhagavataa vohaarabaahullato desitattaa vohaaradesanaa; ---------- N: The term vohaara means common language. vohaarabaahullato: emphasizing common language. vohaaradesanaa: teaching in common language. Popular ethics is not a good rendering, it seems like folklore. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, good. Vohaara in the sense of ordinary language. ---------------------------------------------------- ------- and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of ultimate truth as it has been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is adept in the absolute truths. ------ N: Abhidhammapi.taka.m paramatthakusalena bhagavataa paramatthabaahulato desitattaaparamatthadesanaa... ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: This Pali seems to me to speak of the Abhidhamma Pitaka as pertaining to or providing the Lord's most wholesome, most abundant putting forward of highest instruction. Of course, I know nothing of Pali grammar and multi-meaning terminology -- so, my attempts at translation via use of a dictionary are likely grossly inadequate and possibly way off. But if I'm correct, it doesn't please me much. For me, the Sutta Pitaka provides the core of the Dhamma, and it is ultimate. ------------------------------------------------------ ------ N: Making much, emphasizing paramattha dhammas, teaching of paramattha dhammas. As to sutta teachings, this is adapted to circumstances and to the capability of the persons taught, as we read further on: < the second, that adapted to circumstances wherein beings who are given to divers dispositions, latent tendencies, and traits of character are admonished in accordance with their adaptability>. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that the Sutta Pitaka includes teachings tailored to specific situations and listeners, but all the Dhamma is given there in general form as well as in specifically tailored mode. I see the Abhidhamma Pitaka as primarily giving the teaching in abstracted, general mode - synopsizing the principles of the Dhamma in largely tabular form. ------------------------------------------------------- The Dhammasangani is mainly in terms of paramattha dhammas. The Vibhanga has many examples from daily life given in common way of speech. It states: this is the Suttanta method, this is the Abhidhamma method. The Book on the Elements and most of the Paathana is in terms of paramattha dhammas. ============================== With metta, Howard #85264 From: "Alex" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 9:13 am Subject: Re: (B-2) truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex > > Nice to see you back! > > > PS Anything to share about your recent absence? > It was an intensive metta/vipassana retreat which lasted 4 weeks. Except for the metta part, it was pretty similiar to Mahasi Vipassana. You know, rising/falling of the abdomen, walking & daily activities, super slow. Some of my experiences were: really really broken movements, some seeings of causality, limbs moving by themselves, rise and fall of mind states, even thoughts seemed unsatisfactory. It was really interesting to see Anatta in action. You really can't control you thoughts, and in meditation it is much clearer than from reading the books. Most philosophical arguments (if not all) are nothing compared to direct experience, experienced rather than read. One of the things is, you really have to slow down (which is generally very tough at home) in order to see intentions and such. I've got sad news: If you think that nanas (insight knowledges) can be achieved through reading about them, then you are mistaken. Also, if you believe that you can lead a normal worldly life and see the nanas in it, that is a big mistake, as I've found out. Nanas DO require an intensive and prolonged retreats. Unfortunately some people believe in this new age stuff that just studying is enough and one doesn't need to sacrifice lay life (at least for a short while) to develop the insight. Reading a menu is one thing, but tasting the actual food is another. Best wishes, Alex #85265 From: "Alex" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 9:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II truth_aerator Hi Nina and all, > In a message dated 5/3/2008 9:53:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > ------ > the Suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has been preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics ; > ------- > and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of ultimate truth as it has been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is adept in the absolute truths. > ------ This starts to look like proto Mahayana with their "Our teaching is superior and yours in merely provisional". The fact remains is that in the 4 Nikayas, there are plenty of statements "GO MEDITATE!" but no statements "Go read Abhidamma Pitaka". After all, what did the Buddha do under the Bodhi tree on the night of his awakening? Best wishes, Alex #85266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 3, 2008 9:51 am Subject: Metta, Ch 3, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Question: I think that one should recite in the beginning. Khun Sujin: You said the same about the development of satipatthåna, you said that one should think before there can be awareness. You know that seeing is the reality which experiences, the element which experiences, and that the object which appears, visible object, is only a physical reality which can be experienced through the eyes. Sometimes you believe that you need to repeat to yourself that seeing is the reality, the element, which experiences through the eyes, and that the object which appears is a physical reality, rúpa-dhamma, which is experienced through the eyes. When there is hearing of a sound you believe that you should repeat this to yourself first, because you think that the reciting of words is very useful. What you should understand correctly first of all is that each reality arises because of its appropriate conditions. There are also conditions for thinking to arise more often than sammå-sati, right awareness. When sammå-sati arises it can be directly aware of the realities which appear; it can consider them in the right way, so thatthey can be understood as non-self. As to the term sammå-sati, sammå can be translated as right, and sati is awareness or mindfulness. Sammå-sati is aware in the right way, considers realities in the right way. How is it aware in the right way? When there is seeing there can be right mindfulness of the characteristic of the rúpa- dhamma which appears through the eyes, which is different from nåma- dhamma. There can be right mindfulness of nåma-dhamma, the reality which experiences, the element which experiences, which is seeing. Then there is sammå-sati which is mindful in the right way, which is directly aware of the characteristic of the reality which appears. If people believe that they should recite, they will continue to do that, instead of being directly aware of the characteristic of nåma or of the characteristic of rúpa. If one sees realities as they are, as non-self, anattå, one will know that thinking about reciting, thinking about words one repeats to oneself, is only a reality which arises because of its own conditions. At such a moment sammå-sati cannot yet be directly aware of the characteristics of nåma-dhammas and rúpa-dhammas, and thus there is not yet precise knowledge of them. There is only thinking about the characteristics of realities which appear, thus, there is only theoretical understanding of them. If paññå realizes this there can be the development of sammå-sati, instead of thinking of reciting or naming realities “nåma” and “rúpa”, of repeating this to oneself. Sammå-sati is directly aware of realities and considers in the right way the characteristics of nåma and rúpa. ***** Nina. #85267 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 3, 2008 9:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What I heard. Old Age. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 3-mei-2008, om 16:25 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Is she a member of DSG? ------ N: Not a member, but if you look at the homepage of dsg you will see on top, under description: Nina. #85268 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 3, 2008 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Khandha Yamaka - Study Report 23 nilovg Dear Chew, Op 2-mei-2008, om 20:03 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > I have found the place where Sayadaw explained on the di.t.thisa~n~naa > in his talks. > > Below is an online MP3 player: > http://boomp3.com/listen/f7cd5yn/wrongviewbasedonperception > > ------- N: Thank you for the trouble. It is di.t.thi based on sa~n~naa, but the sound is not clear enough for me. Can you summarize it in a few words why it is specifically based on sa~n~naa? ------- > CH: Sis Nina, will you come to Penang again to conduct Abhidhamma > lecture? -------- N: We are not likely to travel to Penang. If you or your friends like to discuss Abhidhamma here in dsg, you are welcome. Nina. #85269 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 3, 2008 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dosa-mula-citta and deep mental unplesant feelings nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 3-mei-2008, om 16:17 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > We talk about being at present moment, but it is very difficult to > stay in this moment when there is mental unplesant feeling? ------- N: Yes we may be overcome by unpleasant feeling, and than we may be forgetful of the Dhamma. But we cannot choose what feeling arises, they are all conditioned. We can learn to see it as just a condiitoned dhamma. ------- > > L: I usually looking for someting pleasant. ------ N: We all do, we all have accumulated so much attachment. We can begin to realize such moment. ------- > L: So if we talk about this moment, this reaction is ok? ------- N: We can begin to understand the dhamma appearing at this moment, whatever it may be: unpleasant feeling, dosa, attachment, interest in the Dhamma. These are all different realities that appear one at a time. We do not have to think of reactions being OK or not. They have arisen already and cannot be pushed back. Best is to develop understanding Nina. #85270 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 11:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > > James: What do you mean by "mundane version"? Who do you believe > > taught this "mundane version"? > > > > I was really only agreeing with the following comment of yours made in > an earlier post: > > "It is incorrect to say that the Noble > Eightfold Path is only of a supermundane > nature (occuring only at the time of > enlightenment) when the tradition of > Theravada, as recorded by Buddhaghosa, > states that the Noble Eightfold Path is > both mundane and supermundane." > > > Also in the Vism extract quoted by you there is the following (par. 33 > of Ch. XXII -- see extract re-pasted at the end of this post): > "Now in the prior stage when mundane insight is > occurring, they are found in a plurality of > consciousnesses as follows ..." > > As I understand it, "mundane insight" means a moment of arising of the > mundane path. It is the insight the development of which culminates in > the attainment of the supramundane path (enlightenment). > > Only the supramundane path is 8-fold; the mundane path-moments (insight > development) are accompanied by 5 or 6 of the 8 factors only. (However, > this level of detail is not found in the suttas themselves, but only in > the commentaries.) James: You didn't quote the relevant part of the passage: XXII, 39. So there are these thirty-seven states partaking of enlightenment. Now in the prior stage when mundane insight is occurring, they are found in a plurality of consciousnesses as follows: The thirty seven states partaking of enlightenment includes the Noble Eight Fold Path. The Noble Eight Fold Path is found in a plurality of consciousnesses prior to enlightenment. Jon, how much more plain can it get? As far as your statement that mundane path moments are accompanied by 5 or 6 of the 8 factors only, I'm sorry but you will just have to quote to me from the Vism. where it states that. From what I read, all of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path arise at various moment, but not all at the same time, prior to enlightenment. > > >> But the description of the NEP is a description of the > >> supramundane path moment, because it is the > >> transcendental nature of the path that the Buddha > >> is declaring. James: No, actually, the Buddha was declaring a path of practice when he declared the Noble Eightfold Path. The Buddha declares the transcendental nature of the path in the Third Noble Truth. > >> > > > > James: Where? When? In what sutta? If the Buddha was only > > teaching a supramundane version, who taught the mundane version? > > The term "Noble" (Pali: "ariya") connotes the supramundane. But the > mundane path is implied (it is the mundane that leads to the > supramundane). I did not say the Buddha was only teaching a > supramundane version, but that the description of the path factors > describes the supramundane version. James: This is ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense. So, the Four Noble Truths are also supramundane? Including the first noble truth that life is dukkha? What is supramundane about that truth? > > >> (See also the reference in par. XXII to "the Noble > >> Eightfold Path, which is called 'Enlightenment'".) > >> > > > > James: You will have to quote to me what you mean, with your > > analysis please. > > Sorry, that should have been par. 33 (of Chapter XXII of the Vism). I > was referring to the Vism passage quoted in your message (see the third > sentence of the first paragraph of the quote, re pasted below). This > seems to support the idea of the NEP as being nominally supramundane. James: Well, again, what I quoted spells out that the Noble Eightfold Path is both mundane and supramundane. > > >> Getting back to your contention regarding the interpretation of > >> samma-samadhi as one or other of the 4 mundane jhanas, I'd be > >> interested to know whether, as you understand it, mundane > >> jhana is a prerequisite to the development of insight, or is > >> a prerequisite only to the attainment of enlightenment (and, > >> if the latter, to which level of enlightenment). > > > > James: We have discussed that issue many times already, and Bhikkhu > > Bodhi wrote a detailed article about that issue which Sarah > > specially posted for this group. There is not a clear-cut answer > > but it appears that jhana is required for non-return or arahant, but > > not stream entry or once-return. Read B. Bodhi's article again > > found in the files section of this group (which I'm sure you know > > already since you are a moderator ;-)). > > Well I'm more interested in how you (James) see it than how BB sees it, > since it's you I'm having the discussion with ;-)) James: Fair enough. I believe that jhana development is crucial for enlightenment. I don't believe that moment will come unless jhana is developed prior to the moment of enlightement. All of the factors must be developed previously and then they will all come together at the moment of enlightenment, as the Vism. states. You could no more expect undeveloped jhana to suddenly happen as you could expect undeveloped Right View, or undeveloped Right Effort to just suddenly happen. If you believe otherwise, you are dreaming. Is that specific enough? > > If jhana is required for non-return or arahant but not stream entry or > once-return, then it's absence is no obstacle to the development of > insight up to and including once-return. In that case, the description > of samma-samadhi as a factor of the NEP would have to be read as > applying to only the non-returner and the arahant. Is this how you see it? James: Look, the Noble Eightfold Path is not a legal document, it is a guide for how to develop wisdom. If you want to try and negotiate a better deal of out it for yourself, you can try all you want but it won't work. There are no short-cuts. > > Jon Metta, James #85271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 3, 2008 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nilovg Hi Howard and Alex, Op 3-mei-2008, om 17:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > ------ > the Suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has been > preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who > was proficient in popular ethics ; > ------- > N: Suttapi.taka.m vohaarakusalena bhagavataa vohaarabaahullato > desitattaa vohaaradesanaa; > ---------- > N: The term vohaara means common language. vohaarabaahullato: > emphasizing common language. vohaaradesanaa: teaching in common > language. Popular ethics is not a good rendering, it seems like > folklore. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay, good. Vohaara in the sense of ordinary language. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > ------- > > and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of ultimate truth as it has > been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted > One who is adept in the absolute truths. > ------ > N: Abhidhammapi.taka.m paramatthakusalena bhagavataa > paramatthabaahulato desitattaaparamatthadesanaa... > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This Pali seems to me to speak of the Abhidhamma Pitaka as > pertaining to > or providing the Lord's most wholesome, most abundant putting > forward of > highest instruction. Of course, I know nothing of Pali grammar and > multi-meaning > terminology -- so, my attempts at translation via use of a > dictionary are > likely grossly inadequate and possibly way off. But if I'm correct, > it doesn't > please me much. For me, the Sutta Pitaka provides the core of the > Dhamma, and > it is ultimate. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: You and Alex read too much in it. Compare: as to all three > pitakas it is said: > baahullato: with abundance. aa.naabaahullato. emphasizing the > binding precepts, vohaarabaahullato, emphasizing common language, > paramatthabaahulato, emphasizing paramatthas. Just comparing the > ways of presentation. All three Pitakas are to be valued. You translated parama as a superlative, but it simply refers to ultimate realities. paramatthakusalena: with skill in paramatthas. The Buddha did not have kusala cittas, but mahaa-kiriyacittas instead. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I agree that the Sutta Pitaka includes teachings tailored to specific > situations and listeners, but all the Dhamma is given there in > general form as > well as in specifically tailored mode. I see the Abhidhamma Pitaka as > primarily giving the teaching in abstracted, general mode - > synopsizing the > principles of the Dhamma in largely tabular form. > ------------------------------------------------------- > N: I do not see it as abstract, it is meant to go hand in hand with > awareness right now of this moment. It is not a general mode, it > helps us to understand citta, cetasika and rupa of our daily life. Nina. #85272 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 3, 2008 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (140) nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your post I passed on to Lodewijk. It was just a thought of him coming up, that can happen. Op 2-mei-2008, om 21:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Seeing Dhamma practice as too difficult is merely thinking. It's not > reality - it's just a story. Let the thinking take care of the > thinking - it's > neither you nor yours. It's an impersonal happening that you can be > aware of > without getting caught up in it. ------ N: Good you say this: thinking of a story. The thinking itself is conditioned and can be known, but who says it is easy. I agree, no use to think with attachment of the end destination, or, when will it be. Nina. #85273 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 3, 2008 8:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/3/2008 2:34:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Howard: > I agree that the Sutta Pitaka includes teachings tailored to specific > situations and listeners, but all the Dhamma is given there in > general form as > well as in specifically tailored mode. I see the Abhidhamma Pitaka as > primarily giving the teaching in abstracted, general mode - > synopsizing the > principles of the Dhamma in largely tabular form. > ------------------------------------------------------- > N: I do not see it as abstract, it is meant to go hand in hand with > awareness right now of this moment. It is not a general mode, it > helps us to understand citta, cetasika and rupa of our daily life. ============================ Nina, you missed my meaning. The Abhidhamma teaches Dhammic principles abstracted from specific contexts involving specific persons in specific circumstances. The term 'abstracted', as I used it, didn't mean "abstract" in the sense of vague and without details - it meant independent of the specific contextual circumstances that are so central to many of the suttic formulations. With metta, Howard #85274 From: "connie" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 1:07 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (140) nichiconn Dear (Nina and) Lodewijk, N: Lodewijk said the other day: the dhamma is so difficult he feels like giving up. I said to him that he then thinks of: self who cannot grasp it. He agreed. 'Self" wants to have more understanding, and that is desire. What would you answer to Lodewijk? c: Answer: "Who is the self that can give up?" Then I should probably be quiet and not call to mind "Namuci's mailed and bannered host."* *Mahavastu, vol.2, p.227 on The Temptation by Mara: << Thy first army is called desire, and the second discontent; the third is called hunger and thirst, and the fourth craving, The fifth is called sloth and torpor, and the sixth fear ; the seventh is doubt, and the eighth is pride. Then there are greed, and falsely won praise, esteem and renown. This is Namuci's mailed and bannered host. Many a recluse and brahman are seen in the thick of the fray. A craven does not overcome this host, even if he does he will rue it. But I will destroy it as easily as water destroys an unbaked vessel of clay. >> The first things I shouldn't say would be along the lines of "Buddhism is a curse", eventually maybe rambling on down to the Sutta Nipata's Alavaka: "One who being diligent (and) wise believes in the Law of the Saints for attaining Nibbaana, will by listening constantly (to them) acquire knowledge". I might think how someone who, for one thing, would read Perfections aloud & have that put on the internet might not be 'eating stale fare' but could yet grumble from time to time that his wife, while helping keep him out of the wilderness that comes to be owing to insufficient food, still, to his liking, sometimes serves too many dry bones. Here, Paul Carus could walk past, reading aloud from his "Buddhism and Its Christian Critics" p.83: Then Ashin Janakabhivamsa, from his ADL, could remind me: Or maybe it would be the King who said "'Most wonderful is it, Naagasena, and most strange how the felt presence of love has the power of warding off all evil states of mind." Still, if I were sitting with the two of you, I'd be likely to remember that << By living together in the past and by kindness in the present, so is this love born, as a lotus is born in water. When it enters the mind and the heart becomes glad, the understanding man will be assured, saying, "She was happy with me in the past.">> and think it must also be some really good past kamma that would re-unite the love of whom one could say she <" taught me the Dhamma: khandhaayatana-dhaatuyo "; i.e. 9 factors, bodily and mental (khandhaa), sense-organs and objects (ayatana), and elements (dhaatuyo)> and must be among the rarest of wives to keep training her groom for Sati, 'the perfect virtuous wife'. And that, like the rest of the struggle, must be 'long time development'. I think sometimes, not along the lines of 'one moment of understanding, a very rich man' but am more over-reaching: 'if only i could reach stream-entry'. Yet what does that mean to me? It is like looking for the unexpected. There is no sense. I could run a little head cartoon and take a giant leap of faith across the chasm, but fall far, far short. Then, for sure, 'with craven rue', will look up and see no easy path to go scrambling up in reckless impatience. In the Mahavastu, there is talk of 10 bhumis instead of the 4 ariyans. << There are eight rules of conduct for Bodhisattvas when they are in the first bhumi. What are the eight ? They are liberality, compassion, indefatigability, humility, study of all the scriptures, heroism, contempt for the world, and fortitude. >> And living on that ledge is still next to nothing! It seems it's only from the 8th bhumi, which is where the Jatakas are said to begin, that one is truly assured of not falling. How far off, then, for any of us, can the precipice be? peace, connie #85275 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (140) m_nease Hi Connie (and Nina and Lodewijk), Great stuff--I especially liked: connie wrote: Then Ashin Janakabhivamsa, from his ADL, could remind me: A very important point well-made, I thought. mike #85276 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 6:05 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear James, > > James: Should someone first consider the suttas (the Buddha's word) or the commentary/Abhidhamma (someone else's word)? When there is a conflict, I believe the suttas should come first. > > c: I'm not sure there is conflict, but what about the vinaya, also the Buddha's word? James: No, the Vinaya isn't the Buddha's word. Additionally, before the Buddha experienced paranibbana, he said that the minor rules of the Vinaya could be eliminated. > > -- << "Sangha" according to the Vinaya means a sufficient group of monks to represent the Order of monks for various ecclesiastical purposes (Vin. i,319). But in the suttas "Sangha" means the four pairs of noble individuals or the eight particular individuals (cattari purisayugani, attha purisapuggala), i.e., those who are on the path to stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and Arahantship, and those who have obtained the fruits thereof.>> -- Lily de Silva James: I don't think this example is really comparable to the jhana issue. Do you? > > I like: << Iti-vuttaka: j h moore, p.vii: ...almost any comment or argument on any Buddhist topic must inevitably be regarded as only provisional, if not in some cases even premature, until all the texts, together w/their native commentaries, shall have been sifted, compared, interpreted, and criticized. >> > > peace, > connie > > Sacred Books of the Buddhists, vol.21: INCEPTION OF DISCIPLINE and VINAYA-NIDANA - Being a Translation and Edition of the Bahiranidana of Buddhaghosa's Samantapasadika, the Vinaya Commentary by N. A. JAYAWICKRAMA. 1962. > pp.19-20: > << > 25. Here follows the explanation and elucidation. These three Pitakas, indeed, according to formal analyses are said to be the authoritative injunctions, the popular teachings, and the ultimate truth respectively ; or they are the discourses necessitated by transgressions, those adapted to circumstances, and those set out in accordance with reality respectively ; or again, discourses on the various categories of restraint, on the refutation of heresies, and on the distinction between Name and Form, respectively. Herein, the Vinayapitaka is called the exposition of injunctions as it has been preached with a preponderance of authority by the Exalted One in whom all authority is vested ; the Suttapitaka, the exposition of popular teachings as it has been preached with great emphasis on popular ethics by the Exalted One who was proficient in popular ethics ; and the Abhidhammapitaka, the exposition of ultimate truth as it has been preached with great leanings on absolute truth by the Exalted One who is adept in the absolute truths. > [22] Likewise, the first is called the teaching necessitated by transgressions wherein those beings who are given to many misdeeds are admonished in accordance with the nature of their offences ; the second, that adapted to circumstances wherein beings who are given to divers dispositions, latent tendencies, and traits of character are admonished in accordance with their adaptability ; and the third, that set out in accordance with reality wherein beings who conceive of an ego and what pertains to it, only in the presence of a pile of conditions, are instructed in terms of the absolute truth. > Similarly, the first is called discourse on the various categories of restraint as in it are discussed all aspects of restraint, which are diametrically opposed to remissness in conduct ; the second, discourse on the refutation of heresies as in it is discussed the unravelling of perverse views, which is diametrically opposed > to the sixty-two heretical theories ; and the third, discourse on the distinction between Name and Form as in it is discussed the differentiation of Name and Form which is diametrically opposed to lust and other evil tendencies. > > 26. It should be known that in these three are the threefold training, the threefold avoidance, and the fourfold profundity. Hence the training in the higher morality is specifically discussed in the Vinayapitaka, the training in higher thought in the Suttapitaka, and the training in higher wisdom in the Abhidhammapitaka. In the Vinayapitaka is taught the avoidance of transgression, as transgression in defilements is diametrically opposed to morality ; in the Suttapitaka the avoidance of prepossession, as prepossession is diametrically opposed to concentration ; in the Abhidhammapitaka, the avoidance of latent bias, as latent bias is diametrically opposed to wisdom. In the first is the categorical avoidance of defilements and in the others the avoidance consisting of elimination and eradication. In the first is the avoidance of the defilement of misconduct : in the others that of the defilements of craving and misbelief. And in each of them the fourfold profundity of the Dhamma, of the meaning, of the exposition, and of the comprehension, should be known. Herein the Dhamma is the Sacred Texts, the meaning is its precise meaning, the exposition is the verbal preaching of the Sacred Texts which have been established in the mind, and the comprehension is the correct understanding of the Sacred Texts and the meaning of the Sacred Texts. And in these three (Pitakas) [23] the Dhamma, the meaning, the exposition, and the comprehension are difficult of access to men of little wit and providing no basis of support even as the great ocean is to hares and such animals ; and hence they are profound. In this manner, herein, should the fourfold profundity too of each one of them be understood. > >> James: Did you type all of this just for my benefit? Metta, James #85277 From: "connie" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 6:12 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nichiconn Dear Nina, Howard, N: It is the translation 'popular teachings' that you stumble over. Let me research together with Connie and Scott the Pali text. In the back of the book is the Pali, but this takes time. c: Nina! Pali grammars, though minefields in their own right, leave me feeling like the man with no hands. Thank you for looking up the text. Perhaps I could impose on you even more - ch.16 on Nibbaana. Pali v.559 ? I can't even match English to English, let alone either of those to the text... arrrg-who would even want to swim the ocean? Who has a choice? It has to be one ocean or the other. I remember a picture: Starving monks of Matale rock cave temple who wrote down the Pali Canon. Some might be hard to swallow, but let me not nay-say the leavings of nobler appetites than mine when I might accept the perfect charity and acquire a taste. Mahavastu, vol.2 p.44: When men are abused they yearn for a brave champion. In council they yearn for a wise man, and at meal-times they love to honour a dear friend. vol.1, p47: The dog replied :- Out of little one should give a little, out of what is moderate a moderate amount. Out of much one should give much. There is never an occasion for giving nothing at all. I tell you, Kosika, to eat only after sharing. Thus will you enter on the noble path. He finds no happiness who lives for himself. === N: I get the meaning. In the suttas the Buddha used conventional language (vohara) to explain deep truths to be understood by those who were able to be led to enlightenment. Yes, in the suttas we find deep truth and they point all the time to ultimate realities. I agree with you that the suttanta includes the entire Dhamma. There were differences in the way of presentation in general and all that is said here in the text is said in a general way. It is a general typification. That is all. Of course there is Abhidhamma also in the Vinaya and the Sutta. I am interested to know what Connie thinks. Nina. c: I will just add two more quotes, hoping to encourage more chewing over the less popular baskets: C.A.F. Rhys-Davids "BUDDHISM: A Study of the Buddhist Norm" {buddhism014617mbp.pdf}, pp.39-40: << None the less, Abhidhamma was an instrument for regulating the mind. According to the greatest of the scholastic commentators of the fifth century A.B., Buddhaghosa, it was calculated to check those excesses in thought away from the norm, which were shown, by the Buddha, to lead to loss of mental balance, craziness, insanity. And this it was sought to carry out, first, by a thorough-going definition and determination of all terms used in doctrinal tenets. Hereby a mutual consistency of denotation and connotation was secured. Secondly, by enunciating those tenets in a fixed form, and co-ordinating them mutually, where desirable. Thirdly, by reducing all possible heterodox positions to an absurdity. Fourthly, and herein lies the chief, not to say the only direction in which the Abhidhamma-Pitaka has positively contributed to early Buddhist philosophy by a study of the most general relations conceivable among phenomena. These are reckoned as twenty-four in number, some of which we should subsume, or include under others, perhaps because in English dress their real meaning is not always clear. >> INCEPTION OF DISCIPLINE, pp.92-93: << Here are the advantages arising from learning the Vinaya : A person who is proficient in Vinaya-learning stands in the relationship of a father or mother to clansmen who have gained faith in the Dispensation ; for on them depend their ordination and higher ordination, the discharge of the major and minor obligations and their skill in good conduct and resort (for alms). Besides, on account of his Vinaya-learning his code of moral precepts will be well guarded and protected, he becomes an arbiter to those who by nature are scrupulous, he goes about amidst the assembly of monks with confidence and checks firmly his adversaries in accordance with the Dhamma. [106] He is faring along for the persistence of the Good Teaching. Therefore has the Exalted One said : " These O monks, are the five advantages accruing to a person adept in the Vinaya : His own code of moral precepts is well guarded and protected and so on and finally he is faring along for the persistence of the Good Teaching." And besides, whatever good qualities which have restraint as their basis that have been declared by the Exalted One, a person adept in the Vinaya is heir to them, on account of the fact that these qualities are based on the Vinaya. And so it has been declared by the Exalted One : "Vinaya leads to restraint and restraint to absence of remorse, the absence of remorse leads to delight, and delight to joy, joy leads to impassibility and impassibility to ease, ease leads to concentration and concentration to knowledge and insight with correct perspective, knowledge and insight with correct perspective leads to revulsion and revulsion to detachment, detachment leads to emancipation, emancipation to knowledge and insight into emancipation, knowledge and insight into emancipation leads to perfect Nibbana free from the material substrata. Discussion, deliberation, intensive study and lending attentive ear are for this purpose, namely, the emancipation of mind without the material substrata." Therefore, one should strive hard for learning the Vinaya. >> peace, connie #85278 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 6:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: report on Bangkok and Kaeng Krajan m_nease Hi Sarah, sarah abbott wrote: > S: As I understand, just because a dhamma arises all the time like > ekaggata or phassa, does not mean that it appears now. In other words, > There are conditions for what arises in a day (and as you say, ekaggata > arises with every citta) and then there are other conditions for what > appears as object of mind-door processes and what is object of sati now > (if anything). > > Because akusala ekaggata is so very much more common in a day than kusala,might > this may be why the concentration that is apparent is much more likely to > be (a nimitta of) such akusla concentration. For example, it may be > apparent that there's some concentration involved whilst chopping themight > vegetables, driving the car, surfing or even checking the Pali of a text. > Is it kusala or akusala? > > It may be a generalisation, but when I heard this (that the concentration > which appears now is akusala concentration), it immediately made sense to > me. > > What do you think? It's an interesting point. It took me a little while, but I think I get it--it ("concentration that is apparent") goes back to our discussion of "what appears now", i.e. the object of a cognitive process. So the minute instances of wholesome consciousness that MIGHT occur when engaged in circumambulating stupas, making offerings or wearing relics on our heads must be attended by wholesome one-pointedness but will not 'appear'. For practical purposes anyway, wholesome moments (necessarily of daana, siila or bhaavanaa, as I understand it) are extremely rare in everyday life. So if we assume that ekaggataa--like e.g. phassa--doesn't 'appear', then yes, it does make sense "that the concentration which appears now is akusala concentration", as I see it. Thanks for the clarification. mike #85279 From: "connie" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 7:37 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nichiconn Dear James, > -- << "Sangha" according to the Vinaya means a sufficient group of monks to represent the Order of monks for various ecclesiastical purposes (Vin. i,319). But in the suttas "Sangha" means the four pairs of noble individuals or the eight particular individuals (cattari purisayugani, attha purisapuggala), i.e., those who are on the path to stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and Arahantship, and those who have obtained the fruits thereof.>> -- Lily de Silva James: I don't think this example is really comparable to the jhana issue. Do you? c: I was looking for your ranking of the baskets, but since you say Vinaya is not Buddha's word, never mind. Maybe you would have an idea about why the reciters of the nikayas wouldn't necessarily agree with each other over some points... not that I have an example offhand, but say on something like "what is a moment?" Not sure whether that's mentioned in the Visuddhimagga. I guess if you want to answer, you will change the subject line since our tracks don't always run in the same directions. But, as to the jhana issue, RobK wrote my favorite "The wisdom-liberated Arahant" post, from which I now quote: << In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana. Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta: i]Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) : Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana. Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanayanika)..."[/i] >> end quote << and with that, I roll out of this hotbed. James (about another long quote): Did you type all of this just for my benefit? c: So what if I did? Actually, I copied it from a pdf and made some attempt to proofread it - you know how word recognition software is; but to both our benefit, may I offer to share whatever merit I might gain here. I remember sometimes you saying something about that over the Sisters. peace, connie #85280 From: "Alex" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 8:02 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II truth_aerator Dear Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear James, > << > In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana. > Wishful thinking. The sutta NEVER, NOT EVEN ONCE, have mentioned lack of Jhana (samma- samadhi). The sutta merely refutes arupa jhana attainment. Look, if you think that just thinking about DO like those guys can make you an Arahant, why aren't you one? If not an Arahant, are you Anagamin, sakadagamin, sotopanna? Furthermore it is ONE sutta. Suttas that show the requirement of Jhanas outnumber by 3-4 digits the suttas that are misinterpreted as "arahatship while thinking or cooking" (which DID achieve Jhana, maybe a long time ago though and had to work on other factors as the last straw that broke the camel's back). I'll say even more. Uf we go literal, then achievement of 4 Jhanas is required even for a sotopanna, as it is a part of Noble 8 fold path that must be reached. Again, if just thinking/reading and trying to see ultimate realities (and all that) would bring awakened, then why don't we have Arahants on this board, the names of whom are well known? :) This is new age stuff that you can reach ultimate awakening today without strenuous effort (the hardest work) and without having to sacrifice comfy bed, eating 3 times per day, wife/husband, tv, relations, bad habits and so on. What do you think Buddha did under the Bodhi tree? Best wishes, Alex #85281 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 8:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II antony272b2 Hi Howard, Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: "In Anguttara Nikaya, persons are as a rule not reduced to mere collections of aggregates, elements and sense-bases, but are treated as real centers of living experience engaged in a heartfelt quest for happiness and freedom from suffering."(from Intro to Samyutta Nikaya). His complete translation of the AN is due within a couple of years. with metta / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 5/3/2008 2:34:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > > Howard: > > I agree that the Sutta Pitaka includes teachings tailored to specific > > situations and listeners, but all the Dhamma is given there in > > general form as > > well as in specifically tailored mode. I see the Abhidhamma Pitaka as > > primarily giving the teaching in abstracted, general mode - > > synopsizing the > > principles of the Dhamma in largely tabular form. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > N: I do not see it as abstract, it is meant to go hand in hand with > > awareness right now of this moment. It is not a general mode, it > > helps us to understand citta, cetasika and rupa of our daily life. > > > ============================ > Nina, you missed my meaning. The Abhidhamma teaches Dhammic principles > abstracted from specific contexts involving specific persons in specific > circumstances. The term 'abstracted', as I used it, didn't mean "abstract" in the > sense of vague and without details - it meant independent of the specific > contextual circumstances that are so central to many of the suttic formulations. > #85282 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 3, 2008 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and James) - In a message dated 5/3/2008 10:37:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: c: I was looking for your ranking of the baskets, but since you say Vinaya is not Buddha's word, never mind. ============================== James said that? With metta, Howard #85283 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 3, 2008 4:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II upasaka_howard Hi, Antony - Nice to hear from you! :-) In a message dated 5/3/2008 11:28:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@... writes: Hi Howard, Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: "In Anguttara Nikaya, persons are as a rule not reduced to mere collections of aggregates, elements and sense-bases, but are treated as real centers of living experience engaged in a heartfelt quest for happiness and freedom from suffering."(from Intro to Samyutta Nikaya). His complete translation of the AN is due within a couple of years. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I will be one of the first to purchase it! :-) -------------------------------------------------- with metta / Antony. ======================= With metta, Howard #85284 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 8:41 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Connie (and James) - > > In a message dated 5/3/2008 10:37:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > nichicon@... writes: > > c: I was looking for your ranking of the baskets, but since you say Vinaya > is not Buddha's word, never mind. > > ============================== > James said that? > Yeah, I said that. Of course, the basic rules are from the Buddha, but the Vinaya contains a lot of other information from later monks- to explain the reasons for the rules. Metta, James #85285 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 9:19 pm Subject: Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your view? scottduncan2 Dear TG, Regarding: TG: "The 32 body parts appear in the Satipatthana as a subject for mindfulness. All these all considered 'ultimate realities' (from your viewpoint) and are they all directly experienced?..." Scott: Visuddhimagga XI,88: "2. By Groups: there is the earth element described under the twenty aspects (modes) beginning with head hairs, body hairs, and also the water element described under the twelve (modes) aspects beginning with bile, phlegm, etc. Now as to these: Colour, odour, taste, and nutritive Essence, and the four elements - From combination of these eight There comes the common usage head hairs; And separately from these eight There is no common usage head hairs. Consequently, head hairs are only a mere group of eight states. Likewise body hairs, and the rest. A component here that is kamma-originated is a group of ten states, [that is to say, the former eight] together with the life faculty and sex. But it is on account of respective prominence [of stiffness or cohesion] that it comes to be styled 'earth element' or 'water element'. This is how they should be given attention by groups." XI, n. 30 (p.797): '"From resolution of these eight": the eight dhammas beginning with colour, when resolved by means of understanding, are apprehendable (upalabbhanti) in the ultimate sense through mutual negation (a~n~nam-a~n~na-vyatirekena); but head hairs are not apprehendable in the ultimate sense through negation of colour and so on. Consequently, the term of common usage "head hairs" is applied to these dhammas in the co-arisen state; but if they are each taken separately "There is no common-usage head hairs". The meaning is that it is a mere conventional term. "Only a mere group of eight states" is said, taking the colour, etc., which are real (bhuuta - lit. 'become'), as a unity by means of the concept (pa~n~natti) "a head hair", not only because they are merely eight states'(Pm.360). Sincerely, Scott. #85286 From: "connie" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 9:34 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nichiconn Dear Alex, Thanks for reminding me of the Sutta Nipata's Khaggavisaana: < the (attaining of even) temporary Samadhi (meditation) by any one who is attached to society, is impossible; such is the teaching ...>> What I meant when I told James I was rolling out of the hotbed was that, having nothing new to contribute to 'the jhana issue' as such, I've no real desire to discuss it any further. Maybe, under a new subject line, you could tell me about the difference between jhana factors and jhana citta... what is it that makes us capable of walking, talking, etc.? And/or, having implied in #85280 that jhana and samma-samadhi are equivalent, you would address this part of the PED's entry for samadhi: peace, connie #85287 From: "colette" Date: Sat May 3, 2008 9:15 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II ksheri3 Hi Alex, The few lines visible at the home page, when a person enters the group, caught my eye and caused me to read further. I loved how you skillfully diasected the "conceptions" that Connie was/is having without much pain at all. I've been told that I have a skill for using knives sharp enough that inflict pain in the recipient after they have given their last disgusting put down of me and left me and walking away from me, where they realise that their humor and their delusions of granduer had given them severe lacerations. I was laughing and smiling at your precision in dealing with the situation UP UNTIL THE POINT, please go down with me 'til ya hit my name. > > > << > > In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka > arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana. > > > > Wishful thinking. > > The sutta NEVER, NOT EVEN ONCE, have mentioned lack of Jhana (samma- > samadhi). The sutta merely refutes arupa jhana attainment. > > Look, if you think that just thinking about DO like those guys can > make you an Arahant, why aren't you one? If not an Arahant, are you > Anagamin, sakadagamin, sotopanna? > > Furthermore it is ONE sutta. Suttas that show the requirement of > Jhanas outnumber by 3-4 digits the suttas that are misinterpreted as > "arahatship while thinking or cooking" (which DID achieve Jhana, > maybe a long time ago though and had to work on other factors as the > last straw that broke the camel's back). > > I'll say even more. Uf we go literal, then achievement of 4 Jhanas is > required even for a sotopanna, as it is a part of Noble 8 fold path > that must be reached. > colette: right here I'm starting to ponder the reply and the effectiveness. --------------------------- > Again, if just thinking/reading and trying to see ultimate realities > (and all that) would bring awakened, then why don't we have Arahants > on this board, the names of whom are well known? :) > colette: the "if" part of the statement was delicious! The "then" part of the statement causes me to recoil and ponder the "attitudes" of the people in the general proximity. You, Alex, are drawing a line here and I'd hate to see that you would be forced to defend that line at all costs. I've run into Discordians in my past and they know me very well thank you but they know me so well because they are Discordians and that is all they are or would/will ever be. Their money nor their position won't do them much good since they can't take it with them when they go. --------------------------------------- > > This is new age stuff that you can reach ultimate awakening today > without strenuous effort (the hardest work) and without having to > sacrifice comfy bed, eating 3 times per day, wife/husband, tv, > relations, bad habits and so on. > colette: couldn't have said it better myself. I can verify your statements since I know for fact that a major part of the survival of organized religion in the Western hemisphere is because of the laziness, the sloth, of the society from/BECAUSE OF their delusions of granduer and the hallucinations of "SUBURBIA". While attending UIC when I was like 40 years old I found that at this "comuter college" the students regularly and religiously practiced the art of having the exact same answers on major tests. At my age I wasn't included in the "community answer" session so one time while taking "small group communications" class I came to class the day our group was giving a lecture to the class, I came to the class smelling of alcohol (I had already obtained the reputation of having a tendency to use alcohol to excess, at the university) and with my confidence and experience with the subject material, during the Q & A portion of the speach I was certain that the audiance that was asking the questions would not be given the few "empty minutes" which would have and were inflicted upon my group members that were supposed to be on my team, since they were not prepared for the firing line (Q & A session) they had or maybe still have a lot of baggage in their minds that they are so afraid of that they believe that shuffling the ugliness under the rug or in the closet will make the ugliness go away and not exist. I did more than step up to the plate and lower some ugly person's views of their superiority over any other person -- it's easy for me since even the people in poverty are allowed to have more than I have, I've never been allowed to have more than $10,000 a year, during my entire life. But that's a "fighting Irish" trait that will be dealt with in the future when I refine my technique better through Mahayana, Madhyamika, Vajrayana, et al. <...> ------------------------------------ > > > What do you think Buddha did under the Bodhi tree? > > colette: This is one of those times when I'm gonna DELIBERATELY and INTENTIONALLY not taking a free shot with that question since I could really "go to town" with that thought you extended. Thank you for the post. toodles, colette #85288 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat May 3, 2008 6:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... TGrand458@... Hi Scott So it seems the 32 body parts are reduced into elements and then analyzed? 1) I'm not sure that's the instruction in the Satipatthana. 2) Wouldn't we be able to give the same kind of reductionist consideration to "houses," cars,""people," etc. ... rather than just calling them "concept" and not realities? It seems to me that's what is being done below. 3) Since the primary point of the 32 body parts analysis is primarily to inculcate revulsion and detachment due to the foulness of the body, it seems a sterile reduction into "elements" defeats the purpose. 4) Though the in-depth analysis of hair below is interesting, I'm wondering if the Buddha wouldn't just rather we think of a hair in a bowl of soup. ;-) Although I believe anytime conditionality principles are shown, that is useful too....it highlights the absence of any "core" in any formation. 5) Back to the point... if the Satipatthana is all about "realizing 'realities' in the present," then it seems that "contemplating the liver or bile" is an interesting approach taught by the Buddha. Thanks for your input. I will consider it. TG In a message dated 5/3/2008 10:19:26 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Regarding: TG: "The 32 body parts appear in the Satipatthana as a subject for mindfulness. All these all considered 'ultimate realities' (from your viewpoint) and are they all directly experienced?viewp Scott: Visuddhimagga XI,88: "2. By Groups: there is the earth element described under the twenty aspects (modes) beginning with head hairs, body hairs, and also the water element described under the twelve (modes) aspects beginning with bile, phlegm, etc. Now as to these: Colour, odour, taste, and nutritive Essence, and the four elements - From combination of these eight There comes the common usage head hairs; And separately from these eight There is no common usage head hairs. Consequently, head hairs are only a mere group of eight states. Likewise body hairs, and the rest. A component here that is kamma-originated is a group of ten states, [that is to say, the former eight] together with the life faculty and sex. But it is on account of respective prominence [of stiffness or cohesion] that it comes to be styled 'earth element' or 'water element'. This is how they should be given attention by groups." XI, n. 30 (p.797): '"From resolution of these eight": the eight dhammas beginning with colour, when resolved by means of understanding, are apprehendable (upalabbhanti) in the ultimate sense through mutual negation (a~n~nam-a~n~(a~n~nam-a~n~na-vyatirekena); but h the ultimate sense through negation of colour and so on. Consequently, the term of common usage "head hairs" is applied to these dhammas in the co-arisen state; but if they are each taken separately "There is no common-usage head hairs". The meaning is that it is a mere conventional term. "Only a mere group of eight states" is said, taking the colour, etc., which are real (bhuuta - lit. 'become'), as a unity by means of the concept (pa~n~natti) "a head hair", not only because they are merely eight states'(Pm.360)h Sincerely, Scott. #85289 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2008 12:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nilovg Hi Howard, I got your point. Nina. Op 3-mei-2008, om 21:22 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, you missed my meaning. The Abhidhamma teaches Dhammic principles > abstracted from specific contexts involving specific persons in > specific > circumstances. The term 'abstracted', as I used it, didn't mean > "abstract" in the > sense of vague and without details - it meant independent of the > specific > contextual circumstances that are so central to many of the suttic > formulations. #85290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2008 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nilovg Dear Connie, Op 4-mei-2008, om 3:12 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Discussion, deliberation, intensive study and lending attentive ear > are for this purpose, namely, the emancipation of mind without the > material substrata." Therefore, one should strive har d for > learning the Vinaya. -------- N: Intensive study can only lead to emancipation which is arahatship, when satipatthaana is being developed: understanding of the present dhammas. I miss this in Rhys Davids' Buddhism: Terms, doctrinal tenets, no the Abhidhamma is far more. Abhidhamma pertains to seeing now, visible object now. As to nibbaana, to what text do you refer:< ch.16 on Nibbaana. Pali v. 559 ? I can't even match English to English.> Paali is a help, otherwise people would think that the Sutta is called something like a folklore. Nina. #85291 From: "colette" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 12:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive ksheri3 Hi Scott, No, I'm not ignoring you or your reply to me! The fact is that I've been concentrating and meditating on other things, particularly the equality and mirror imaging of accupuncture and the martial arts, both Chinese specialties. I've even pondered the thought of raising the Nargarjuna issue with some specialists, elsewheres. Well, I'm sitting here at 2:30 a.m. watching, listening, and ENJOYING the Eric Clapton Crossroads festival on PBS (WTTW in Chicago), that was taped from the Chicago concert of this ongoing event. And suddenly I was thinking of the post that I just placed here to Alex and thought, "hmmmmm, maybe it's time to go back and review what Scott was anxious for me to digest and experience". And here we find that I'm letting you know that we're still in this together and that hopefully I'll be getting back, more into the applications of Buddhist doctrine.... Ooooh, it just struck me, I recall last week, as I was googling The 3 Kayas I ran into a Yogacara text that I wanted to re-read from Ron Epstein at the UCSF or is it University of San Fran? I was only looking for a quick verification of a thought I had and when I started skimming that text I couldn't help but caught up in the immense amount of applicable information that I've left laying in the folder marked Yogacara. Thanks, Scott, for causing myself to remind myself! lol. Now, let me re-read your reply, then I think it's back to watch the rest of the Blues festival Crossroads. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear colette, > > Good morning (!), I hope you are well (Oxford comma), and thanks for > the repy: > > Me: "It would seem that 'rootedness' of patisandhi-citta would > refer to that particular moment of consciousness alone (and the > bhavanga cittas arising during that given existence)." <....> #85292 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 1:37 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 kenhowardau Hi Walto, -------- <. . .> W: > These are epistemological questions. That's an area in which I'm much more comfortable than explication of the Dhamma. I don't think, though, that this is the best place for a discussion of that type. I'd be happy to bat this back and forth with you off-list, if you'd like to, or, if you'd care to put these questions on either the Analytic Philosophy or Analytic Philosophy-Borders Of list (I belong to both), you might get plenty of action there. I'll just say here that claims according to which appeals to authority trump appeals to experience and/or reason have never fared particularly well among either philosophers or scientists. -------- I am sure this can be kept on-topic. I believe the Buddha gave instructions on what to believe and what not to believe. In brief, he said we should take great care and use all our commonsense in choosing a teacher. Once haven chosen a teacher we should pay respect, listen, consider his teaching and apply it to the world of our own experience. In this way it is not a matter of "belief" but of "try it and see." Of course, if you make a wrong choice and end up with the wrong teacher you will be in trouble. :-) But then again, in a world that consists entirely of *the present moment* concepts such as 'choose' 'teacher' 'listen' and 'practice' take on a whole new meaning. -------------------- <. . .> KH: > The Buddha taught > things "not known before," he did not validate the preconceived > theories of uninstructed-worldlings . W: > I would think you'd need to trust your experience to even know there was a Buddha. ------------------- To know the Buddha is to know the Dhamma. That is, it is to know the way things are in ultimate reality. So how many of us, even now, know there was a Buddha? ---------- <. . .> W: > . . . I want to stress, though, that my treatment here has been much kinder than it was on the Spinoza list. <. . .> I guess you could say that there's more metta in this neighborhood. As I've said before, I really appreciate that. KH: > > I think you will find that everyone at DSG (with one or two notable > exceptions) began by thinking the Dhamma was all about sitting and > concentrating, waiting for some "gee-whiz" experience to come along. > Many still do. > W: > You may be right: I have no idea. But I don't think either Howard or I ought to be considered guilty of that sin anyhow--at least not based on any recent posts. ----------- I apologise if my characterisation of formal meditation was unfair. Many people here have assured me that their meditation practices are not necessarily about wanting "gee-whiz" experiences. But that is my shorthand way of describing something that is other than understanding. The Middle Way is entirely a way of understanding, and I am sure you will agree that understanding is never gained by techniques (sitting postures, sense-deprivation etc). It is gained by hearing a teaching and wisely listening to, considering, and applying it. Ken H #85293 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2008 2:35 am Subject: Metta, Ch 3, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, There is no rule at all in the development of satipatthåna. When someone thinks about the names of realities or thinks that he should recite words in order to remind himself, he should remember that thinking in this way arises because of conditions. He cannot force himself not to think in this way. However, thinking is not sammå-sati of the eightfold Path. When sammå- sati of the eightfold Path arises, it is aware in the right way of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa and at that moment sammå-ditthi, right understanding, can investigate the true nature of nåma and rúpa. Thus paññå can grow and it can realize nåma and rúpa as they are: not a being, not a person, not self. In daily life we see beings, we see people who belong to different families, who are different as to the colour of their skin, who have a different rank or position in society, who speak different languages, and who behave in different ways. When we think of people who are so different in many ways and we have right understanding of the characteristic of mettå, sati- sampajañña can arise and be aware of the characteristic of the citta which thinks. Then it can be known what type of citta is thinking, mettå- citta or akusala citta. When akusala citta thinks of people, it can be realized as such. For instance the akusala citta which is rooted in attachment, lobha- múla-citta, may be accompanied by conceit or it may be without conceit. Sometimes we think of others with conceit, and sometimes we think only with attachment but without conceit. Or there may be akusala citta which is rooted in aversion, dosa-múla-citta. We may think of others with aversion or even anger. Dosa-múla-citta may at times be accompanied by avarice or by jealousy. Thus we see that there are different types of akusala cittas which may think of other people. The understanding of our different cittas can arise again and again so that it grows and this is a condition for the arising of mettå when we see people or when we think of people in daily life. In that way mettå can develop more and more, and there can eventually be mettå for all beings. If people want to develop mettå as a meditation subject which can condition calm, they cannot do this without precise knowledge of the different cittas which arise. There must be right understanding which knows exactly the characteristic of calm which accompanies mettå when it appears at a particular moment in daily life. When there is calm there are at such moments no defilements. ******* Nina. #85294 From: "Alex" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 5:19 am Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II truth_aerator Dear Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > > Maybe, under a new subject line, you could tell me about the difference between jhana factors and jhana citta... what is it that makes us capable of walking, talking, etc.? >>>> Jhana is a special state of letting go (if coarse and middle defilements, + weakening of laten defilements)and very close attention to what is happening (especially at the mind level). It is a very mindful and blissful state beyond any ordinary state of conscious, beyond the one-pointedness and ordinary (worldly) minimal concentration in daily activities. Sure there is also a small degree of concentration present when one does ordinary daily activities, but that concentration is used to do daily activities. The concentration of attention in Samma-Samadhi (Jhana) is used to examing mind-body AND to experience bliss, happiness and/or deep equinimity. >>> And/or, having implied in #85280 that jhana and samma-samadhi are equivalent, you would address this part of the PED's entry for samadhi: > > peace, > connie > To starte with, a-d , DO NOT EXCLUDE JHANA RELATED EFFECTS. Obviously one who is in Jhana or immeadetely after emerging from it is guarding the senses, self possessed, content and emancipated from the hindrances. In 99.9% of the instances when samma-samadhi is defined, it is defined as 4 Jhanas. "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." — SN 45.8 To be fair, there is a sutta where there are 4 aspects to concentration in which 4 Jhanas is 1 of 4. But that in no way refutes Jhana requirment AND those factors can be either preliminary to Jhana or based after emerging from Jhana. "These are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. -AN 4.41 I don't know about you, but many good Buddhists have done satipatthana for much longer than 7 days and yet haven't achieved Arahatship/Anagamiship... The key point may be to achieve Jhana before hand and use that as a BASIS for satipatthana. Best wishes, Sorry if I sounded harsh in the last post, Alex #85295 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 4, 2008 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/3/2008 11:41:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Connie (and James) - > > In a message dated 5/3/2008 10:37:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > nichicon@... writes: > > c: I was looking for your ranking of the baskets, but since you say Vinaya > is not Buddha's word, never mind. > > ============================== > James said that? > Yeah, I said that. Of course, the basic rules are from the Buddha, but the Vinaya contains a lot of other information from later monks- to explain the reasons for the rules. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, okay - thanks! :-) [Likewise, a relatively small number of suttas are by (important) monks including at least Sariputta, Moggallana, and Ananda.] ---------------------------------------------- Metta, James ========================= With metta, Howard #85296 From: "connie" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 5:51 am Subject: Perfections Corner (142) nichiconn Dear Friends, The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment www.zolag.co.uk Copyright © Sujin Boriharnwanaket Chapter 4: The Perfection of Wisdom The Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" defines the perfection of wisdom as follows: "Wisdom (pa~n~naa) has the characteristic of penetrating the real specific nature (of dhammas), or the characteristic of sure penetration, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilful archer; its function is to illuminate the objective field, like a lamp; its manifestation is non-confusion, like a guide in a forest; concentration or the four (noble) truths, is its proximate cause." Through the study of the Dhamma we gradually come to have more understanding of the vicissitudes of the world, of gain and loss, honour and dishonour, praise and blame, wellbeing and pain. We shall understand that the pleasant "worldly conditions" of gain, honour, praise and wellbeing only lead to dukkha, suffering, if there is no pa~n~naa that knows the causes and their appropriate results in life. If someone truly sees the value of pa~n~naa and intends to develop kusala, he will not wish for pleasant sense objects as result, but he will aim for the growth of pa~n~naa until it has become keen and accomplished to the degree that it can completely eradicate defilements. Satipa.t.thaana, right understanding of the mental phenomena and physical phenomena of our life, cannot be developed without pa~n~naa. No matter how many other excellent qualities someone may have, his defilements cannot be eradicated if pa~n~naa does not develop and becomes keener, if pa~n~naa does not clearly see the true nature of the realities that are naturally appearing. Thus, we should see the incomparable value of pa~n~naa and we should apply ourselves to its development so that it can become fully accomplished. If we develop satipa.t.thaana time and again, pa~n~naa will be gradually accumulated so that it becomes keener, and reaches the degree of a perfection which realizes the four noble Truths. ..to be continued, connie #85297 From: "Alex" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 7:28 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 truth_aerator Dear Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > KH: > > I think you will find that everyone at DSG (with one or two > notable > > exceptions) began by thinking the Dhamma was all about sitting and > > concentrating, waiting for some "gee-whiz" experience to come > along. > > Many still do. > > > ----------- > > I apologise if my characterisation of formal meditation was unfair. > Many people here have assured me that their meditation practices are not necessarily about wanting "gee-whiz" experiences. But that is my shorthand way of describing something that is other than > understanding. > > The Middle Way is entirely a way of understanding, and I am sure you will agree that understanding is never gained by techniques (sitting postures, sense-deprivation etc). It is gained by hearing a teaching and wisely listening to, considering, and applying it. > > Ken H > The final goal of Buddhism is cessation of suffering, and I hope no one here will dispute that. Right meditation serves as a TOOL (and nothing more) to reach that goal. During the path there may be "gee whiz" experiences, but there aren't the final goal - just tools to be used and discared. It is not the fault of the tool that it was used improperly. Postures are again, nothing magickal. They serve a purpose to help to meditate (in order to achieve the final goal) , nothing more. Look, you can't reach your way towards nibbana through only thinking! What did Buddha do under the Bodhi tree on the eve of his Awakening? Best wishes, Alex #85298 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 8:02 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 walterhorn Dear Alex and Ken: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: >> What did Buddha do under the Bodhi tree on the eve of his Awakening? > Right. As I recall, he also came to realize that a starvation diet was not indicated, that eating (in moderation) was a good. That doesn't mean that the goal of Buddhism is a full belly. The whole argument against meditation is a false dichotomy. Best, Walto #85299 From: "connie" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 9:00 am Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nichiconn Dear Nina, N: Intensive study can only lead to emancipation which is arahatship, when satipatthaana is being developed: understanding of the present dhammas. I miss this in Rhys Davids' Buddhism: Terms, doctrinal tenets, no the Abhidhamma is far more. Abhidhamma pertains to seeing now, visible object now. c: Yes, quite so. No satipatthaana, no practise - neither Reading nor Sitting changes that. Even if understanding of the present dhammas happens wordlessly, how, as dhamma friends, do we build together any kind of raft worthy of confidence without the shared understanding, however minimal (and mundane), that "book study" (reading, talking or what-have-you) gives us. When I sent the quote, I was thinking about how much discussion there has been here over words like "paramattha" and "sabhaava". Now I think of the question about "the intelligence" of animals... how was it that the 500 bats benefitted -in that lifetime- from hearing Abhidhamma? N: As to nibbaana, to what text do you refer:< ch.16 on Nibbaana. Pali v.559 ? I can't even match English to English.> Paali is a help, otherwise people would think that the Sutta is called something like a folklore. c: Sorry - the Visuddhimagga, ch.16.Indriyasaccaniddeso, Nibbaanakathaa (557-561). It starts at ch.xvi 67 in Nanamoli's translation and p.601 in 2003 PTS edition of Pe Maung Tin's. When I get to the Paali v.559, my book built raft falls altogether apart... and this bookworm is dumb as a rock. In a sense, without satipatthaana, the teachings do become a folklore as opposed to a truly living tradition. All the more reason to struggle for deeper understanding of them. I like, too, the reminder that even if we learn Paali or any other language in this lifetime, next go around, it starts all over again. Maybe what we try to share with words is more of a dock than a raft. peace, connie #85300 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2008 11:41 am Subject: Howard's post to Lodewijk. nilovg Hi Howard, Lodewijk thanks you for your sympathetic and wise post about patience. He appreciates it very much. Nina. #85301 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2008 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (142) nilovg Dear Connie (and Han), Op 4-mei-2008, om 14:51 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > We shall understand that the pleasant "worldly conditions" of gain, > honour, praise and wellbeing only lead to dukkha, suffering, if > there is no pa~n~naa that knows the causes and their appropriate > results in life. -------- N: They lead to dukkha since we cling so much to what we like. So they are actually a burden. I address the post also to Han because it would be beneficial for us all if he could add something in this Perfections corner, now and then. Nina. #85302 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 4, 2008 7:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard's post to Lodewijk. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk) - In a message dated 5/4/2008 2:41:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Lodewijk thanks you for your sympathetic and wise post about patience. He appreciates it very much. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, I thank you for your kind characterization of my post, and I'm very happy Lodewijk found it helpful. :-) ------------------------------------------------- Nina. ======================== With metta and much fondness for both of you, Howard #85303 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2008 11:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (140) nilovg Dear Connie, Op 3-mei-2008, om 22:07 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > I might think how someone who, for one thing, would read > Perfections aloud & have that put on the internet might not be > 'eating stale fare' but could yet grumble from time to time that > his wife, while helping keep him out of the wilderness that comes > to be owing to insufficient food, still, to his liking, sometimes > serves too many dry bones. ------ N: A lot of good stuff to think over. The dry bones are then Abhidhamma. For those who do not know; Lodewijk read aloud the Perfections and they are on MP3. Also the passage Mike quoted I like: seeing everything under the aspect of one citta that arises and falls away. Kh Sujin spoke about death in that way, which I shall transcribe. Mahavastu: I am not familiar with this, is it Mahayana? Good to think over. Nina. #85304 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2008 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nilovg Dear Connie, Op 4-mei-2008, om 18:00 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Now I think of the question about "the intelligence" of animals... > how was it that the 500 bats benefitted -in that lifetime- from > hearing Abhidhamma? ------ N: I have been thinking about this. The Bodhisatta was in many lives a wise animal, but he is very special. But think about levels of wisdom: cinta maya ~naa.na: someone who makes a plough for others has wisdom, see Visuddhimagga and Dispeller of Delusion. Teaching languages is a level of wisdom and it can be accumulated. Animals teach each other language, building nests and dwellings, amazing what they find out and learn. Their plane is a sorrowful plane, and in that life they cannot atain enlightenment, but there are possibilities for the development of levels of skill and understanding. Nina. #85305 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 4, 2008 12:17 pm Subject: What I heard: sickness and death nilovg Dear friends, This is a transcription of a Thai session. While I was discussing with Khun Sujin about old age and loss of dear people, a friend had entered the Foundation whose wife is ill with cancer. He wanted to ask some questions given by his wife on cetasikas. Khun Sujin spoke to him with great compassion. ------------ Khun Sujin: Dukkha is heavy, nobody likes it. It is a danger, it causes citta to be sorrowful, troubled. Nobody is freed from it, but we must understand it. When we have more understanding of the Dhamma we shall see that what arises must fall away, this cannot be altered. Birth is really troublesome. We have to eat to stay alive, we have to see, there is no end to seeing. Seeing is a burden, because of seeing there is attachment. Is seeing beneficial or is it a danger and disadvantage? When there is seeig, there will be clinging to what is seen. We are searching for the things we like, but if we do not search for what we like we live more at ease. From where comes the burden? From seeing and from wanting the things we see. We can come to understand that each citta that arises and falls away is a burden. Everything that arises and falls away is great dukkha. Defilements cannot be eradicated by ignorance, only by understanding. When we listen more and develop understanding more there will be less dukkha. Everyone has to die, this cannot be changed. What arises now has to fall away, and then there is nothing left. When a dhamma arises and there is ignorance, one clings and takes it for self or mine. When hardness appears, there is rupa and also the nama that experiences it. We should not cling to the names of realities but understand their characteristics. Then we shall know that there is no person, no world. There is dhamma all the time, otherwise nothing would appear. Citta is the principal in knowing what appears and it is accompanied by cetasikas, mental factors which share the same object and perform each their own function. Painful feeling is a cetasika, it is not citta and not rupa. It has no possessor. If it does not arise, it could not appear and nobody chooses it. There must be the rupa which is the bodysense and the rupa that impinges on it. Everyone knows pain, but not everyone knows that it is dhamma. We do not have to wait for the end of life of a dear person as Nina asked. Each moment arises and falls away and it is in nobody’s power to change this. When understanding has become firmer one does not worry about what one should do in such or such situation. At this moment there is the arising and falling away of realities already, and this happens until the end of life. Why worry? The moment of dying is actually like being fast asleep, there is no pain and no need for fear. It is very natural. We should have great respect for the Depth of the Dhamma. ********* Nina. #85306 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 12:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: TG: "So it seems the 32 body parts are reduced into elements and then analyzed?" Scott: Visuddhimagga XI, 47-83: "These things called head hairs...body hairs...nails...teeth...skin... flesh...sinews...bones...bone marrow...kidney...heart...liver... midriff...spleen...lungs... bowel...entrails...gorge...dung...brain... These things are devoid of mutual concern and reviewing. So what is called [hairs...]brain is a particular component of this body, without thought, indeterminate, void, not a living being, rigid earth element... "As to what is called bile...phlegm...pus...blood...sweat...fat... tears...grease...spittle...snot...oil of the joints...urine...So what is called [bile...]urine is a particular component of this body, without thought, indeterminate, void, not a living being; liquid water element in the mode of cohesion... "...he should then give his attention to the [four] fire components thus: That whereby one is warmed...that whereby one ages...that whereby what is eaten, drunk, chewed and tasted becomes completely digested - this is a particular component of this body, without thought, indeterminate, void, not a living being; it is fire element in the mode of maturing (ripening). "...the up-going winds (forces)...the down-going winds (forces) in the belly...the winds (forces) in the bowels...the winds (forces) that course through all the limbs...the in-breath and out-breath...is a particular component of this body, without thought, indeterminate, void, not a living being; it is air element in the mode of distending..." TG: "1) I'm not sure that's the instruction in the Satipatthana." Scott: I don't see the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta as a set of instructions. No further discussion required on this point, however, thank you. TG: "2) Wouldn't we be able to give the same kind of reductionist consideration to 'houses,' cars,''people,' etc. ... rather than just calling them 'concept' and not realities? It seems to me that's what is being done below." Scott: Of course, then it would be Contemplation of Houses, Contemplation of Cars, Contemplation of People, etc, rather than Contemplation of Bodily Parts - none of which are paramattha dhammas. TG: "3) Since the primary point of the 32 body parts analysis is primarily to inculcate revulsion and detachment due to the foulness of the body, it seems a sterile reduction into 'elements' defeats the purpose..." Scott: What, then, would be the 'purpose' of reviewing '[t]his same body, however it is placed, however it is disposed, as consisting of elements...'? This, too, is part of the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta. TG: "...5) Back to the point... if the Satipatthana is all about 'realizing 'realities' in the present,' then it seems that "contemplating the liver or bile" is an interesting approach taught by the Buddha." Scott: 'Liver' or 'bile' are not paramattha dhammas, they are concepts; therefore pa~n~naa doesn't penetrate the 'liver' or 'bile' since these have no ultimate existence, and cannot be objects of satipa.t.thaana. By the way, the Paa.li for 'reviews' ('...a bhikkhu reviews this same body...') in the sutta is 'paccavekkhati', which we have discussed before; (" ...Puna ca para.m bhikkhave bhikkhu imameva kaaya.m uddha.m paadatalaa adho kesamatthakaa tacapariyanta.m puura.m naanappakaarassa asucino paccavekkhati:..."). Sincerely, Scott. #85307 From: "Alex" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 1:45 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > N: Intensive study can only lead to emancipation which is arahatship, when satipatthaana is being developed: understanding of the present dhammas. >>> If so, scholars would all be Arahats by now... Nina, Scott, KenH and other smart people. Are you arahants, once returners? Is KS an Arahant? Some of you have been studying far more than 7 years or 7 days required for Arahatship. What paths and fruititions have you reached? Buddha certainly didn't study AP, neither did his disciples like Ven Sariputta nor Ven. MahaMogallana for their practice. 1) After eating the meal and just before Awakening, what did Buddha do? 2) Why is there NOWHERE in the early suttas a direct statement by the Buddha to study AP? It is wishful thinking that one can stay comfy at home and become Arahant without giving up household life. Best wishes, Alex #85308 From: "connie" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 1:56 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nichiconn Dear Alex, A: The key point may be to achieve Jhana before hand and use that as a BASIS for satipatthana. Best wishes, Sorry if I sounded harsh in the last post, c: Harsh, no. I just thought I had touched a nerve & made you hysterical & it seemed best to just ignore it. I do thank you for your calmer sounding answers. I'm sorry I can't say I read anything new in them but it's no problem. Maybe I don't ask right, but I figure if I have questions, I have to find the answers for myself anyway. Still, let me ask you one more: How do you know whether it's what people call Buddhist jhana or something else? Feel free to consider it a rhetorical question. I'll copy the piece of writing that makes me ask below. I do strongly believe the wordling is a lunatic whose perceptions are all bound up with hallucinations, etc., so it's nothing personal, but even when I think I agree with something anyone says, I don't take it for much. Likewise with not finding agreement. I just prefer finding either (dis/agreement) without having the lunatics all riled up, I guess. Call it attachment to pleasant surroundings. Thanks again, connie Lama Anagarika Govinda "The Psychological Attitude of Early Buddhist Philosophy" (1974, Weiser, paperback) {note: <> = italics}, p.166: << Of the three root-evils (lobha, dosa, moha) only hatred and greed are eliminated by the factors of jhaana-consciousness. Ignorance or delusion (moha) is destroyed only in one of its forms (uddhacca). This points to the fact that the consciousness of absorption is not connected with insight, respectively, right views (samaa di.t.thi), and as we learn from the enumeration of the seven jhaana-factors in the seventh chapter of Abhidhammattha-Sa'ngaha, also grief (domanassa) is able to become a factor of absorption. By wrong application of concentration or on account of wrong mental presuppositions, absorption may result in a painful and pain-creating state of mind. In the enumeration of hindrances (niivara.naani), in the same chapter, ignorance (avijjaa) is mentioned as the sixth hindrance. The rather unexpected presence of domanassa in the first-mentioned group and the unusual inclusion of avijjaa among the hindrances is not an accidental coincidence but points at an inner connexion which throws light upon the meaning and definition of jhaana in the canonical texts. The fact that they mention only five hindrances shows that they do not speak of absorption in general but of absorption (jhaana) in the Buddhist sense, i.e. under the antecedent condition of right views (sammaa di.t.thi), in other words, with an attitude which is in accordance with actuality. This attitude, however, is not to be understood as the complete annihilation of ignorance, but rather as a means by which only the grosser forms of avijjaa are destroyed - but not avijjaa itself - another reason why avijjaa has not been mentioned among the conquered hindrances. The faculty which corresponds to this partial or gradual elimination of ignorance is , which may be defined as that inner which arises from an intuitive or intellectual insight into the truth of the dhamma and which grows in the course of meditation (not yet, however, in its initial stage, as it is represented by the first jhaana) on account of profound and direct experience, into a state of certainty and knowledge in which the last traces of delusion are removed. >> #85309 From: "connie" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 2:25 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (142) nichiconn Dear Nina and Han, > We shall understand that the pleasant "worldly conditions" of gain, > honour, praise and wellbeing only lead to dukkha, suffering, if > there is no pa~n~naa that knows the causes and their appropriate > results in life. -------- N: They lead to dukkha since we cling so much to what we like. So they are actually a burden. I address the post also to Han because it would be beneficial for us all if he could add something in this Perfections corner, now and then. c: Especially burdensome when they are the basis for the kinds of mean-ness (stingyness, jealousy, etc.) called macchariya. Yes, Han, we miss your input, connie #85310 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 4, 2008 10:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Nina) - Welcome back, BTW, Alex! :-) In a message dated 5/4/2008 4:46:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > N: Intensive study can only lead to emancipation which is arahatship, when satipatthaana is being developed: understanding of the present dhammas. >>> If so, scholars would all be Arahats by now... Nina, Scott, KenH and other smart people. Are you arahants, once returners? Is KS an Arahant? Some of you have been studying far more than 7 years or 7 days required for Arahatship. What paths and fruititions have you reached? ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Alex, as you know, I also have no doubt that FAR more than study is required for attainments, and FAR more was taught as needed. However, I find myself obliged to point out what I view as a bit of illogic here in what you just wrote (above). What of "the meditators" here on DSG - those engaged in sitting meditation, in walking meditation, in ongoing mindfulness and guarding the senses? Are we arahants or once-returners? What paths and fruitions have WE reached? Now, I DO believe that studying the Dhamma together with putting it into practice in the manner I have just discussed is what is needed and is what the Buddha taught. I merely note that your pointing to the study-only folks (presumably) being non-attainers does not in itself establish that study-only will not eventually take one all the way. ------------------------------------------------------------- Buddha certainly didn't study AP, neither did his disciples like Ven Sariputta nor Ven. MahaMogallana for their practice. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: But the Buddha worked under the tutelage of a prior Buddha, and Sariputta and Moggallana studied under the Buddha of our age. Learning the Dhamma at some point (even for a private buddha in some past life) is needed. Facility at any complex, conscious activity, whether speaking, or bowling, or engaging in Dhamma practice, cannot be cultivated without prior instruction. It makes no sense to me to denigrate study in defense of practice. There's no practice without study. (The point we agree on is that study without practice is ineffectual.) ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) After eating the meal and just before Awakening, what did Buddha do? 2) Why is there NOWHERE in the early suttas a direct statement by the Buddha to study AP? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: A joke, huh? ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------------------- It is wishful thinking that one can stay comfy at home and become Arahant without giving up household life. Best wishes, Alex ============================== With metta, Howard #85311 From: "colette" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 1:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive ksheri3 Hi Scott, Part of the reason for not replying to your post to me was that I immediately noticed your application of words I haven't come into contact with and the ease at which you bantied them about. As I sat here only doing one google search I struck upon this "yoni manasikara" and I got an unbelievable reply from the search engine. This is heavy stuff, for me at least, since the depth in Buddhism which I am at right now does concern me since I'm still trying to bring my foundational buddhist material up to date for this level of practice. A reply here could take a little while, more than a few days. Thanks for the illumination. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear colette, > ... > Me: "In the above it is noted that '...the goodness and so on of > classes of conditioned consciousness is bound up with wise attention > and so on, not with the associated condition...'. Does this suggest > that, while there may be some sort of influence rendered by the > presence, absence, or relative strength of pa~n~naa as root for > patisandhi citta, it is mental factors like yoniso manasikara arising > 'now' which serve as condition for whatever level of pa~n~naa might > arise?" > > colette: "no, I believe it's the FRUITION or Illumination which occur > because of the intersection, tangent, the momentariness which I think > you're suggesting is 'now' but by the time a person can speak the > word 'now' whatever that person was speaking of is 'then'." > > Scott: I think I'm seeing it as conditions other than hetu-paccaya > which contribute to the development of pa~n~naa and, yeah, given > enough development then there is the arising of Path and Fruit where I > think pa~n~naa serves as root condition for that moment (I don't know > for sure, I'm just trying to figure it out). #85312 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 2:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear colette, Thanks for the reply: c: "No, I'm not ignoring you or your reply to me! The fact is that I've been concentrating and meditating on other things, particularly the equality and mirror imaging of accupuncture and the martial arts, both Chinese specialties. I've even pondered the thought of raising the Nargarjuna issue with some specialists, elsewheres." Scott: Cool. Heavy stuff. c: "Well, I'm sitting here at 2:30 a.m. watching, listening, and ENJOYING the Eric Clapton Crossroads festival on PBS (WTTW in Chicago), that was taped from the Chicago concert of this ongoing event. And suddenly I was thinking of the post that I just placed here to Alex and thought, 'hmmmmm, maybe it's time to go back and review what Scott was anxious for me to digest and experience'." Scott: Check it out. (Not you, Nina - the Noise, the incessant Noise) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkm9OiYvmPc c: "...Now, let me re-read your reply, then I think it's back to watch the rest of the Blues festival Crossroads." Scott: Okay, later, colette. Sincerely, Scott. #85313 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 2:40 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 kenhowardau Hi Alex (and Walto), -------- <. . .> Alex: > The final goal of Buddhism is cessation of suffering, and I hope no one here will dispute that. --------- Good point! But what do we mean by "goal?" Ordinary men and women (people who are untrained in the Dhamma) think of a goal as something that a presently existing person (entity, self) will go on to reach in the future. But the Buddha said there was no self - nothing that goes on. So where does that leave our ordinary definition of goal? It suddenly becomes completely meaningless, doesn't it? -------------------------- A: > Right meditation serves as a TOOL (and nothing more) to reach that goal. During the path there may be "gee whiz" experiences, but there aren't the final goal - just tools to be used and discared. It is not the fault of the tool that it was used improperly. Postures are again, nothing magickal. They serve a purpose to help to meditate (in order to achieve the final goal) , nothing more. ------------------------- Since there is nothing that goes on, the final goal of Buddhism must somehow lie in the present moment, mustn't it? So how do you see the present moment, Alex? Do you see it as conditioned existence (dukkha)? And do you see how dukkha is (in the ultimate sense) caused by greed? (And therefore with the cessation of greed there will be the cessation of dukkha?) Do you see that this way of understanding is the Path leading to the cessation of dukkha? ---------------------------------- A: > Look, you can't reach your way towards nibbana through only thinking! ---------------------------------- Right understanding *now* is a step on the way to nibbana. What more could you ask for? ------------------- A: > What did Buddha do under the Bodhi tree on the eve of his Awakening? ------------------- He understood the presently arisen dhamma. He understood every conditioned dhamma that could possibly arise. Every dhamma he had experienced in the preceding uncountable aeons (everywhere from the lowest hell to the highest heaven) he recalled and directly saw as anicca, dukkha and anatta. And, yes, I'll admit these dhammas included the eight mundane jhanas (the highest bliss attainable outside nibbana). And yes, he did leave the jhanas until last. But that does not mean the jhanas were the Path. It simply means he left the highest mundane states until last (to see them - along with all the others - as anicca, dukkha and anatta - and not worth clinging to). Ken H #85314 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 2:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Direct knowledge and Inference are Mutually Supportive scottduncan2 Dear colette, Sorry for the delay in replying. c: "...As I sat here only doing one google search I struck upon this "yoni manasikara" and I got an unbelievable reply from the search engine." Scott: That should be 'yoniso manasikara', colette. I think 'yoni' and 'yoniso' are related linguistically, at least considering the PTS PED: "Yoni (f.) [Vedic yoni] 1. the womb. -- 2. origin, way of birth, place of birth, realm of existence; nature, matrix...Esp. frequent in phrase yoniso manasikaara 'fixing one's attention with a purpose or thoroughly,' proper attention, "having thorough method in one's thought..." c: "This is heavy stuff, for me at least, since the depth in Buddhism which I am at right now does concern me since I'm still trying to bring my foundational buddhist material up to date for this level of practice." Scott: You definitely work hard at this, colette. I dig it. Looking forward to your reply. Sincerely, Scott. #85315 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 2:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (142) m_nease Hi Connie (and All), connie wrote: ... > The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment > www.zolag.co.uk> > Copyright © Sujin Boriharnwanaket ... > The Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" defines the perfection of > wisdom as follows: ... > "Wisdom (pa~n~naa)... > concentration or the four > (noble) truths, is its proximate cause." The CMA lists 'wise attention' as the proximate cause of pa~n~naa. Can anyone tell me if there's any further explanation of this in The Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct"? Seems to me the above could lead to considerable misunderstanding. Thanks, mike #85316 From: "Alex" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 3:28 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 truth_aerator Dear KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex (and Walto), > Good point! But what do we mean by "goal?" Ordinary men and women > (people who are untrained in the Dhamma) think of a goal as something that a presently existing person (entity, self) will go on to reach in the future. >>> You are going to0 much into semantics. I never claimed atta. What I've said was that the goal is cessation of all suffering which occurs when all the stress of khandas & defilements is gone. > > But the Buddha said there was no self - nothing that goes on. > So where does that leave our ordinary definition of goal? It suddenly becomes completely meaningless, doesn't it? > Word "goal" is used as a means of communication. Don't materialize it too much. > -------------------------- > Since there is nothing that goes on, >>> Not reincarnation, but there IS the cessation of suffering. >>> the final goal of Buddhism must somehow lie in the present moment, mustn't it? >>> The practice must always be now, but the parinibbana or nibanna without remained(highest goal) for us is in the hopefully near or far future. >>>> So how do you see the present moment, Alex? Do you see it as conditioned existence (dukkha)? >>> Yes, no kidding, it IS suffering. Although there are lapses (I am not perfect), But I'll never consider existence (especially human or lower) to be the ultimate and lasting happiness. >> And do you see how dukkha is (in the ultimate sense) > caused by greed? (And therefore with the cessation of greed there > will be the cessation of dukkha?) > Do you see that this way of understanding is the Path leading to the cessation of dukkha? > Yes and not just greed. Anger and delusion as well. Furthermore even conscious, ANY consciousness is a subtle form stress, subtle but still stressful. > ---------------------------------- > A: > Look, you can't reach your way towards nibbana through only > thinking! > ---------------------------------- > > Right understanding *now* is a step on the way to nibbana. What > more could you ask for? >>> You mean samma-ditthi? Well, it does NOT refer to earning a PhD and becoming a scholar or learning 10,000 pages, something the disciples couldn't have done. Please don't pull wool over people's eyes claiming the mysterious accumulations of disciples. Sariputta and MahaMogallana were Sanjay's students (if we are to believe to what is said about them), a guy whom Buddha told was really bad. Buddha himself in his 3rd last existence at first was very hostile to Buddha Kassapa implying that future Gotama was NOT a Bodhisattva in proto- Mahayana (Theravada) sense. It took him 3 lives as a Buddhist to become a Buddha. It took few weeks to make Chief Disciples. Of course Future Gotama as a non-Buddhist (no abhidhamma studies) did have previous lives where he meditated quite heavily, but not in an Ariya way. Of course we probably can't become Arahant in 7 days because we lack the living Buddha to give us 100% foolproof personalized meditation instructions, which NONE of the people today (not even Ven. Sariputta) could. So the path is longer, but it is STILL available and can happen in a near future. > ------------------- > A: > What did Buddha do under the Bodhi tree on the eve of his > Awakening? > ------------------- >>> I'll give a quote: -- I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but it is not easy to achieve that pleasure with a body so extremely emaciated. Suppose I were to take some solid food: some rice & porridge.' So I took some solid food: some rice & porridge. Now five monks had been attending on me, thinking, 'If Gotama, our contemplative, achieves some higher state, he will tell us.' But when they saw me taking some solid food — some rice & porridge — they were disgusted and left me, thinking, 'Gotama the contemplative is living luxuriously. He has abandoned his exertion and is backsliding into abundance.' "So when I had taken solid food and regained strength, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives.... Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details. "This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings..."This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain. "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations.... "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036x.than.html > He understood the presently arisen dhamma. He understood every > conditioned dhamma that could possibly arise. Every dhamma he had > experienced in the preceding uncountable aeons (everywhere from the > lowest hell to the highest heaven) he recalled and directly saw as > anicca, dukkha and anatta. >>> True in a way, but see the above quote in MN36 on HOW it was achieved. Did it say anything about going to the library or reading books for that? >>>> > And, yes, I'll admit these dhammas included the eight mundane jhanas (the highest bliss attainable outside nibbana). And yes, he did leave > the jhanas until last. But that does not mean the jhanas were the Path. >>>> "I [Buddha] thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036x.than.html The knowledge part really doesn't have to be 10,000 pages long. -- Pg 185 Vol2 Book of 4s of Anguttara Nikaya: Vi (186) Approach If a monk understands the meaning and the text of Dhamma- even if it be but a stanza of four lines-and be set on living in accordance with the dhamma, he may be called "one widely learnt, who knows Dhamma by heart.". ------ Best wishes, Alex #85317 From: "Alex" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 3:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II truth_aerator Dear Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Howard: However, I find myself obliged to point out what I view as a bit of illogic here in what you just wrote (above). What of "the meditators" here on DSG - those engaged in sitting meditation, in walking meditation, in ongoing mindfulness and guarding the senses? >>> The meditators are making a lot of merit by doing Bhavana. In fact it is the highest merit that can be made. The meditators by meditating regularly and following the instructions found in the suttas are making progress, and if not towards ariyahood or higher paths, then towards more merit which is always helpful. >>>> Are we arahants or once-returners? What paths and fruitions have WE reached? >>> If you attain Noble 8Fold path, then your a stream enterer. Period. The stronger you make it, the higher the path. I merely note that your pointing to the study-only folks > (presumably) being non-attainers does not in itself establish that study-only will not eventually take one all the way. > ------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Study only can't make an Arahant. But if it is combind with Practice... Then it will. The key point is: How much study is really required and how much is too much. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: >But the Buddha worked under the tutelage of a prior Buddha, and > Sariputta and Moggallana studied under the Buddha of our age. >>> Buddha became a Buddhist and lived 3 lives. Sariputta and MahaMoggallana took weeks to become the Chief Disciples. True they had the BEST teacher, but they certainly didn't even had time to study AP or lots of suttas. > It makes no sense to me to denigrate study in defense of practice. > There's no practice without study. (The point we agree on is that study without practice is ineffectual.) > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > True, study (of the suttas) is a must. But it has to have DIRECT personal experience part with it. Nina, Scott, KenH and other Abhidhammikas know a lot of Abhidhamma. They are probably very smart as well. But they know more theoretical stuff than is is needed for Arahatship. But why aren't they Arahats? Because a vital thing is missing. Best wishes, Alex #85318 From: "connie" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 4:11 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (140) nichiconn Dear Nina, N: Mahavastu: I am not familiar with this, is it Mahayana? Good to think over. c: Mahaavastu {sacredbooksofbud16londuoft_bw.pdf}, vol.1 - Jones, pp.xi-xii: << Although it calls itself the Vinaya of the Lokottaravadins, a branch of the Mahasanghikas, the earliest Buddhist schismatics, this title gives no adequate notion of the nature of its contents. Its peculiar dogma that the personality of the Buddha was docetic, that he was really supramundane {lokottara) and that he only apparently conformed to the habits of men, is, apart from two or three slight allusions, dismissed in one comparatively short passage (i. 168 f.). There is hardly anything about the rules of the Order or the history of their formation, as the title Vinaya would lead us to expect. There is early in Volume I (pp. 2-3) a description of the four kinds of ordination, but this is introduced abruptly and equally abruptly dismissed without being related to any other of the rules of the Order. >> I was reluctant to read it for a long time, simply because it was translated from the Buddhist-Sanskrit, but it was worth the look (and I forgive the PTS now!). Mostly, it reads like a great story collection - often different versions of the same one right after each other, some closer to the versions we're used to than others, but pretty much all familiar stuff & covering a lot of common ground. Great descriptions of the hells, btw, in a condensed version of our "Stories of the Departed". In another story, a tiger comes to the spot where someone is hidden & the action is interrupted by this verse: It reminded me of how we're always going back to "is there seeing now?" and 'the Vedas' - our own blinders - cherished beliefs and expectations we might not even know we hold. One story I don't remember from elsewhere concerns Sakka's four daughters, Hope, Faith, Glory and Honour and their faults. To Faith << Kosika said: "His wife may be of high degree, honourable, chaste and devoted, but yet a man may leave her, daughter of a good family though she be, and put his faith in a slave-girl. Through faith men at times display morality, learning and self-control. But when faith is at fault, has it not the appearance of a destroyer ? ... " >> peace, connie #85319 From: "Alex" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 4:44 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II truth_aerator Dear Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > c: How do you know whether it's what people call Buddhist jhana or something else? Feel free to consider it a rhetorical question. I'll copy the piece of writing that makes me ask below. >>>> Detailed Sutta Quote of what goes on in the proper Jhana: quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html > I do strongly believe the wordling is a lunatic whose perceptions are all bound up with hallucinations, etc., so it's nothing personal, but even when I think I agree with something anyone says, I don't take it for much. >>>> Unless you aren't a worldling, what you say about worldlings being a lunatics cuts both ways. Doesn't it? > > Lama Anagarika Govinda "The Psychological Attitude of Early Buddhist Philosophy" (1974, Weiser, paperback) {note: <> = italics}, p.166: >>>> Remember DN16 the Mahaparinibbana sutta? It doesn't matter how many monks hold a certain view or the popularity of a Monk. Dhamma Vinaya is the guide. --- I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana... Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036x.than.html a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana... This monk is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One. "Then again the monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. This monk is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One. Having crossed over, he is unattached in the world. Carefree he walks, carefree he stands, carefree he sits, carefree he lies down. Why is that? Because he has gone beyond the Evil One's range." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html --- Then Dasama the householder from Atthakanagara, on completing his business at Pataliputta, went to Ven. Ananda at Veluvagamaka near Vesali. On arrival, having bowed down to him, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Ananda: "Venerable sir, is there a single quality declared by the Blessed One — the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self-awakened — where the unreleased mind of a monk who dwells there heedful, ardent, & resolute becomes released, or his unended fermentations go to their total ending, or he attains the unexcelled security from the yoke that he had not attained before?" "Yes, householder, there is..." "And what is that one quality, venerable sir...?" "There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana... He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters1 — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. "This, householder, is a single quality declared by the Blessed One — the one who knows, the one who sees, worthy & rightly self-awakened — where the unreleased mind of a monk who dwells there heedful, ardent, & resolute becomes released, or his unended fermentations go to their total ending, or he attains the unexcelled security from the yoke that he had not attained before. [Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhanas.] + 4 Brahmaviharas http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.052.than.html Here Ananda is speaking. "And what sort of mental absorption did he [Buddha] praise? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana [and higher Jhanas]: This is the sort of mental absorption that the Blessed One praised. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.108.than.html Best wishes, Alex #85320 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun May 4, 2008 12:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... TGrand458@... Hi Scott You posted some great content in response to my first point. Thanks.I Though the content of most, if not all, of them are not from the Satipatthana ... and to say that is what the Satipatthana is addressing is a little speculative to say the least. The Satipatthana is telling the listener to see the bodily parts as "impurities," not realities. In Fact, the Satipatthana is asking us to IMAGINE the body to be like a bag of rice!!! LOL Well, that's a far cry from "Ultimate Reailites." In addition, The Satipatthana says "In this way he abides contemplating the body in the body internally, externally, both..." "In THIS WAY" Not some "other way." What you have posted indicates "some other way." Also, I find the idea of contemplating "external body parts as impurities" far removed from "directly experiencing realities in the present." As you say, no need to discuss this point further. .............................................................................. .. n a message dated 5/4/2008 1:41:54 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: TG: "2) Wouldn't we be able to give the same kind of reductionist consideration to 'houses,' cars,''people,consideration to 'houses,' cars, calling them 'concept' and not realities? It seems to me that's what is being done below." Scott: Of course, then it would be Contemplation of Houses, Contemplation of Cars, Contemplation of People, etc, rather than Contemplation of Bodily Parts - none of which are paramattha dhammas. ........................................................ NEW TG: I don't think you've understood my point here. If the body parts are reduced and analyzed as the four great elements, etc. Why not the same thing for houses, boats, whatever. House, Boat, TV, whatever are just words. The constituents of what those objects consist of surely must be made of the things you call "realities." Therefore, if we take an automobile engine, we can see the air elements in the intake and exhaust system, we can see the fire element in the ignition of gas, we can see the water element in the cooling system, we can see the earth elements in the engine block. Anyway, back to my point... It seems you are saying the bodily parts are not realities. Well, that defeats the argument that the Satipatthana Sutta is all about knowing realities in the present moment. ......................................................................... TG: "3) Since the primary point of the 32 body parts analysis is primarily to inculcate revulsion and detachment due to the foulness of the body, it seems a sterile reduction into 'elements' defeats the purpose..." Scott: What, then, would be the 'purpose' of reviewing '[t]his same body, however it is placed, however it is disposed, as consisting of elements...'elements...'? This, too, is part of the Satip ............................................................ NEW TG: I'm just addressing the 32 body parts here. My point is the there are many aspects of the Buddha's teaching that deal with "inference" as insight fodder. There are many other parts of the Satipatthana that are also dealing with inference. But I'm just dealing with the 32 body parts here. I'm am not saying that ALL of the Satipatthana is dealing with inference. But I do get the argument from folks that NONE of the Satipatthana deals with inference. So I just keep plugging away showing the fallacy of that position now and then. .............................................................. TG: "...5) Back to the point... if the Satipatthana is all about 'realizing 'realities' in the present,' then it seems that "contemplating the liver or bile" is an interesting approach taught by the Buddha." Scott: 'Liver' or 'bile' are not paramattha dhammas, they are concepts; therefore pa~n~naa doesn't penetrate the 'liver' or 'bile' since these have no ultimate existence, and cannot be objects of satipa.t.thaana. ...................................................... NEW TG: Ahhh. So it seems you agree with me here and verify my point (somewhat obliquely) that the Satipatthana is not JUST dealing with realities. All we discuss, every word in the Suttas, are just concepts. I find that a weird stance to call a liver a concept. Hope you don't get "concept disease!" ;-) TG OUT #85321 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 6:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: TG: "You posted some great content in response to my first point. Thanks..." Scott: You're welcome. NEW TG: "I don't think you've understood my point here. If the body parts are reduced and analyzed as the four great elements, etc. Why not the same thing for houses, boats, whatever. House, Boat, TV, whatever are just words. The constituents of what those objects consist of surely must be made of the things you call 'realities.'" Scott: No, I got it, TG. These things are conceptual. A 'house' is not paramattha dhamma. Thinking about the constituents of the house does nothing. If this lead to cessation then an awful lot of people would find it, given all the things we think about a lot. TG: "Therefore, if we take an automobile engine, we can see the air elements in the intake and exhaust system, we can see the fire element in the ignition of gas, we can see the water element in the cooling system, we can see the earth elements in the engine block." Scott: Well, okay... TG: "Anyway, back to my point... It seems you are saying the bodily parts are not realities. Well, that defeats the argument that the Satipatthana Sutta is all about knowing realities in the present moment." Scott: Not really, since bodily parts aren't paramattha dhammas. But again, no point in discussing this further. We both know where the other stands on this. NEW TG: I'm just addressing the 32 body parts here. My point is the there are many aspects of the Buddha's teaching that deal with 'inference' as insight fodder. There are many other parts of the Satipatthana that are also dealing with inference. But I'm just dealing with the 32 body parts here." Scott: Okay, I'll leave this to others... TG: "I'm am not saying that ALL of the Satipatthana is dealing with inference. But I do get the argument from folks that NONE of the Satipatthana deals with inference. So I just keep plugging away showing the fallacy of that position now and then." Scott: I know, TG, you do keep plugging away! I've been thinking, though, that some of these contemplations are used, just as those on mettaa for example, for the purpose of attaining jhaana. From this point of view, it is totally understandable that concepts are used as objects of concentration. It would be important to distinguish theoretically when these 'meditation subjects' are being discussed and not to conflate concept as object with concept as paramattha dhamma. Me: "'Liver' or 'bile' are not paramattha dhammas, they are concepts; therefore pa~n~naa doesn't penetrate the 'liver' or 'bile' since these have no ultimate existence, and cannot be objects of satipa.t.thaana." NEW TG: "Ahhh. So it seems you agree with me here and verify my point (somewhat obliquely) that the Satipatthana is not JUST dealing with realities." Scott: Well, TG, not really. Can we agree that the sutta uses conventional speech, much to the discombobulation of some readers of it? TG: "All we discuss, every word in the Suttas, are just concepts. I find that a weird stance to call a liver a concept. Hope you don't get 'concept disease!' ;-)" Scott: Ha Ha! Only if I refrain from drinking 'conceptual Laphroaig'. Sincerely, Scott. #85322 From: han tun Date: Sun May 4, 2008 7:18 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (142) hantun1 Dear Nina and Connie, > Nina: I address the post also to Han because it would be beneficial for us all if he could add something in this Perfections corner, now and then. > Connie: Yes, Han, we miss your input, Han: So I have to say something now:>)) Okay, Text: Thus, we should see the incomparable value of pa~n~naa and we should apply ourselves to its development so that it can become fully accomplished. Han: How can we apply ourselves to the development of pa~n~naa? And, what about now? Do we have pa~n~naa now? Besides, we cannot choose to develop any particular perfection. Pa~n~naa will develop when there are conditions! Respectfully, Han #85323 From: han tun Date: Sun May 4, 2008 7:51 pm Subject: Re: What I heard: sickness and death hantun1 Dear Nina, > The moment of dying is actually like being fast asleep, there is no pain and no need for fear. It is very natural. Han: I hope I die like that with no pain and no fear. Respectfully, Han #85324 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 7:55 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Walter Horn" wrote: > > Dear Alex and Ken: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" > wrote: > >> What did Buddha do under the Bodhi tree on the eve of his Awakening? > > > > Right. As I recall, he also came to realize that a starvation diet > was not indicated, that eating (in moderation) was a good. That > doesn't mean that the goal of Buddhism is a full belly. The whole > argument against meditation is a false dichotomy. > > Hi Walto (and Alex), I see what you mean, and there has been some misunderstanding. You are thinking that the suttas refer to meditation. That is a common misapprehension. In the ancient texts there is the word "bhavana," meaning mental development. It is commonly mistranslated today as meditation. Meditation is an inappropriate word because, in common modern-day usage, it refers to a deliberate practice that someone undertakes with the idea of bringing about mental development. Mental development (bhavana), however, is a conditioned dhamma. It arises by conditions. There is no "bringing about" involved. If the conditions for bhavana are present then there will be bhavana. No one will be able to stop it. If the conditions for bhavana are not present then bhavana will not arise, and no one will be able to make it arise. So, you see, the Middle Way is not a matter of half formal (controlled) mental development and half conditioned (non-controlled) mental development. It is entirely about conditioned mental development. It was never about the formal (deliberate) kind. The idea of formal Buddhist meditation is a modern-day corruption that has led the Buddhist world totally astray. In the texts, the only word for formal meditation is "silabbataparamasa' (belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual). Ken H #85325 From: "connie" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 8:00 pm Subject: Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nichiconn Dear Alex, A: Unless you aren't a worldling, what you say about worldlings being a lunatics cuts both ways. Doesn't it? c: Sorry, it wasn't meant as a cut. And yes, of course. A: Remember DN16 the Mahaparinibbana sutta? It doesn't matter how many monks hold a certain view or the popularity of a Monk. Dhamma Vinaya is the guide. c: Thanks. I'll try to respect what I take to be your wish to not discuss others' opinions next time we talk. Meanwhile, I have company now for the next several days, so I'll probably be going quiet. peace, connie #85326 From: "connie" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 8:22 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (142) nichiconn Dear Han, Han: How can we apply ourselves to the development of pa~n~naa? And, what about now? Do we have pa~n~naa now? Besides, we cannot choose to develop any particular perfection. Pa~n~naa will develop when there are conditions! c: Sometimes I wonder why we've skipped around in this book rather than starting off with generosity, the usual order of presenting the perfections as well as where the graduated courses begin. Anyway, remember Susan Elbaum Jootla's essay? A short quote: << the volition involved in acts of giving will assist us by contributing towards the pliancy of the mind, an essential asset in developing concentration and wisdom, the prime requisites of liberation. >> Of course, they all develop together and really depend on wisdom, but I guess all we can really say is "begin where you are". Maybe generosity is supposed to be something we can most easily begin to understand or afford - even if it is just a smile (according to conditions!). best wishes, connie #85327 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 9:36 pm Subject: Re: What I heard: sickness and death glenjohnann Dear Nina (and others recently in Bangkok) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > This is a transcription of a Thai session. While I was discussing > with Khun Sujin about old age and loss of dear people, a friend had > entered the Foundation whose wife is ill with cancer. He wanted to > ask some questions given by his wife on cetasikas. Khun Sujin spoke > to him with great compassion. > ------------ Nina, thank you so much for transcribing this from the Sunday talk on the week-end of your birthday. I know that you and I spoke of being so impressed with both the clarity of Khun Sujin's responses and her compassion. And then we spoke about it with our friends traveling to Kaeng Krajan on the following Tuesday. When Khun Sujin spoke that Sunday I recall a feeling of peacefulness on hearing it, especially the part about dukha vedana (painful bodily feeling) - how there is no possessor of the feeling, and the conditions necessary for its arising. Also about the moment of death - another moment arising and falling away. How we can build up the "end" of this life in our minds, with so much worry and anxiety, forgetting the momemts actually arising as we are thinking with such dosa and moha. The impact of what she was saying seemed to be stronger in the face of a friend's suffering and pending death. Ann #85328 From: "Egbert" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 8:31 pm Subject: Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your view? egberdina Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi All > > > The 32 body parts appear in the Satipatthana as a subject for mindfulness. > All these all considered 'ultimate realities' (from your viewpoint) and are > they all directly experienced? > > > Or are we looking at yet another case of inferential knowledge being applied > in the satipatthana? Nice post. Much confusion follows from the failure to realise that "ultimate realities", by any name, are a concept. It is, in principle, unknowable that any experience is an uncompounded, irreducible one. (For example, no amount of "directly knowing" white can reveal that it is a mixture of all colours, or that green is a mixture of blue and yellow). The division between what is a concept and what is ultimate reality is entirely arbitrary, and comes into being through definition only. It is not possible to experience that an experience is irreducible, it is always an inference. Cheers Herman #85329 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 3:39 pm Subject: A Moment's Honour to the Worthy is Better than Long Continued Honour to the Unworthy * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! <....> Taken from The Dhammapada1 Translated by Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda Commentary. This refers to revering and honouring worthy ones such as Arahants and others who have gained the higher fruits and realizations. In the absence of such being one can revere and honour those who are striving for the higher fruit and realization. SAHASSA VAGGA - THOUSANDS : A MOMENT'S HONOUR TO THE WORTHY IS BETTER THAN LONG CONTINUED HONOUR TO THE UNWORTHY Mâse mâse sahassena----- yo yajetha sata samam Ekan ca bhâvitattâna----- muhuttam api pujaye Sâ y'eva pujanâ seyyo----- yan ce vassa satam hutam (106) Though month after month, with a thousand sacrifices, one should make an offering for a hundred years, yet, if, only for a moment, one should honour (a Saint) who has perfected himself - that honour is, indeed, better than a century of sacrifice. (106) Dhammapada, Verse 106 Venerable Sâriputta's uncle The Venerable Sâriputta's uncle used to spend much money monthly on the naked ascetics with the object of being reborn in a heavenly realm. The Venerable Sâriputta took him to the Buddha, who directed him on the proper path. Notes 1. Dhammapada verses and stories are especially suitable for children. See an online versions here http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/dhammapada.htm , here http://www.mettanet.org/english/Narada/index.htm and here http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/ <....> #85330 From: "sîlânanda" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 9:58 pm Subject: Dhamma Quotes .... silananda_t What-Buddha-Taught.net *Dhamma Quotes* "Inconceivable, bhikkhus, is the beginning of this samsara*. * A first point is not known of beings roaming and wandering the round of rebirth, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving." "Which do you think, bhikkhus, is more: the stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered on through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable ¨C this or the water in the four great oceans? The stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered on through this long course¡ alone is greater than the water in the four great oceans¡ such a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced suffering, anguish, and disaster, and swelled the cemeteries."* (S.15.3 "Assu Sutta")* *Furthermore:* "There will come a time when the mighty ocean will dry up, vanish and be no more¡ will come a time when the mighty earth will be devoured by fire, perish and be no more. But yet there will be no end to the suffering of beings roaming and wandering this round of rebirth, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving."* (S.22.99 "Gaddulabaddha Sutta") * "Through many a birth I wandered in samsara*, *Seeking, but not finding the builder of this house. Painful it is to be born again and again." "O house-builder! You are seen. You shall build no house again. All your rafters are broken. Your ridgepole is shattered." "My mind has attained the unconditioned. Achieved is the end of craving." [*Builder*: craving; *House: *body (the five aggregates); * Rafters*:defilements; *Ridgepole*: ignorance]* (Dh.153-154 "Udana Vatthu") * Your worst enemy cannot harm you as much as your own unguarded thoughts. Develop the mind of equilibrium. You will always be getting praise and blame, but do not let either affect the poise of the mind: follow the calmness, the absence of pride. *(Sutta Nipata)* One day Ananda, who had been thinking deeply about things for a while, turned to the Buddha and exclaimed: "Lord, I've been thinking- spiritual friendship is at least half of the spiritual life!" The Buddha replied: "Say not so, Ananda, say not so. Spiritual friendship is the whole of the spiritual life!" *(Samyutta Nikaya, Verse 2)* In what is seen, there should be just the seen; In what is heard, there should be just the heard; In what is sensed, there should be just the sensed; In what is thought, there should be just the thought. He should not kill a living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should he incite another to kill. Do not injure any being, either strong or weak in the world. *(Sutta Nipata II,14)* These teachings are like a raft, to be abandoned once you have crossed the flood. Since you should abandon even good states of mind generated by these teachings, How much more so should you abandon bad states of mind! * * Conquer the angry man by love. Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness. Conquer the miser with generosity. Conquer the liar with truth. * (The Dhammapada)* In Aryans' Discipline, to build a friendship is to build wealth, To maintain a friendship is to maintain wealth and To end a friendship is to end wealth. *(Cakkavatti Sutta, Patika Vagga, Dighanikaya)* "If beings knew, as I know, the results of sharing gifts, they would not enjoy their gifts without sharing them with others, nor would the taint of stinginess obsess the heart and stay there. even if it were their last and final bit of food, they would not enjoy its use without sharing it, if there were anyone to receive it" *(Itivuttaka 18)* One should follow a man of wisdom who rebukes one for one's faults, as one would follow a guide to some buried treasure. To one who follows such a wise man, it will be an advantage and not a disadvantage. *(Dhammapada 76)* <....> Copy Right Issues (c) What-Buddha-Taught.net Dear Dhammafarers, Hope the quotes are helpful in one way or another ... for treading onto the Path. mahakaruna, ~up¨¡saka s¨©l¨¡nanda #85331 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 4, 2008 10:12 pm Subject: The Golden Buddhist Life Standards is Law One! bhikkhu0 Friends: The Golden Buddhist Life Standards is Law One! The golden Buddhist's life standards make harmony for oneself and others. This layman's code of discipline = (gihi-vinaya) organize social relationships so that they produce a society of happy being and beings: Law 1 is: Law 1: Avoid the 14 kinds of Wrong & Evil Behaviour: A. Refraining from the four actions that defile mentality (kammakilesa): 1: Killing, violence, harming, breaking, or taking any life (pÄ?nÄ?tipÄ?ta). 2: Stealing, theft, misappropriation, & violating property rights (adinnÄ?dÄ?na). 3: Sexual misconduct such as adultery and paedophilia (kÄ?mesumicchÄ?cÄ?ra). 4: Speaking false, lying, misleading, deceiving, & pretending (musÄ?vÄ?da). B. Desisting from the four kinds of twisted behaviour (agati): 5: Biased & skewed behaviour based on desire, like, & attraction (chandagati). 6: Biased & skewed behaviour based on anger, dislike, & opposition (dosagati). 7: Biased & skewed behaviour based on fear, anxiety, & timidity (bhayagati). 8: Biased & skewed behaviour based on folly, confusion, & doubt (mohagati). C Avoiding the six channels leading to ruin (apÄ?ya-mukha, lit: The mouth of the downfall!): 9: Being addicted to drinking and/or drugs. 10: Always revelling in party, nightlife, & company. 11: Being restlessly bent on empty entertainments & amusements. 12: Being addicted to gambling, betting, & gaming. 13: Associating with evil friends. 14: Being chronically lazy. Source: A constitution for Living. Buddhist Principles for a Fruitful and Harmonious Life. Ven. P.A. Payutto. Buddhist Publication Society 2007: BP 620S http://www.bps.lk The Golden Buddhist Life Standards is Law One! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #85332 From: han tun Date: Sun May 4, 2008 11:04 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (142) hantun1 Dear Nina, Connie and All, While we are studying the Perfection of Wisdom, it reminds me of AN 8.2 Pa~n~na Sutta, where the Buddha teaches the monks the eight causes and the eight requisite conditions leading to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment, and to the increase, plenitude, development, and culmination of that which has already been acquired. They are: (1) There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, and respect. (2) As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, and respect, he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask and question him. (3) Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body and seclusion in mind. (4) He is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior and sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. (5) He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. (6) He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. (7) When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't talk on and on about a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself or he invites another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble silence. (8) He remains focused on arising and passing away with regard to the five aggregates. --------------------- Han: The question here is are you satisfied with the above eight causes and the eight requisite conditions? Can you think of anything else which would help the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment, and to the increase, plenitude, development, and culmination of that which has already been acquired? Respectfully, Han #85333 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun May 4, 2008 7:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 5/4/2008 7:29:04 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: NEW TG: "I don't think you've understood my point here. If the body parts are reduced and analyzed as the four great elements, etc. Why not the same thing for houses, boats, whatever. House, Boat, TV, whatever are just words. The constituents of what those objects consist of surely must be made of the things you call 'realities.'c Scott: No, I got it, TG. These things are conceptual. A 'house' is not paramattha dhamma. Thinking about the constituents of the house does nothing. If this lead to cessation then an awful lot of people would find it, given all the things we think about a lot. ................................................ NEWER TG: Thinking "about things" as things, even realities, is a recipe for NOT becoming enlightened. It is insight into conditional principles that leads the mind AWAY from things...including so-called "realities." We USE the "things" merely as "representations" or "teachers" to show us the impermanent, afflicting, and nonself nature of formations. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter "what things" we use (as long as we're not befuddled by them "having their own essence.") Hence, the Buddha used your so-called 'concepts' all the time without apology. Now I would have thought that in your view the "constituents of the house" would have meant "realities," i.e., elements, etc. That's what I would think of; although I would NOT consider them "realities." Just elements... conditionally relative, passing on, and coreless. The same thing I would have thought about the 32 body parts, or a corpse, or the 18 elements, or 5 aggregates...or any formation whatsoever. Once we start thinking there are Ultimate Realities with there own characteristics ... game over. .......................................................... TG: "Therefore, if we take an automobile engine, we can see the air elements in the intake and exhaust system, we can see the fire element in the ignition of gas, we can see the water element in the cooling system, we can see the earth elements in the engine block." Scott: Well, okay... ................................................... NEWER TG: Some agreement here? ... it seems. ............................................................ TG: "Anyway, back to my point... It seems you are saying the bodily parts are not realities. Well, that defeats the argument that the Satipatthana Sutta is all about knowing realities in the present moment." Scott: Not really, since bodily parts aren't paramattha dhammas. But again, no point in discussing this further. We both know where the other stands on this. NEW TG: I'm just addressing the 32 body parts here. My point is the there are many aspects of the Buddha's teaching that deal with 'inference' as insight fodder. There are many other parts of the Satipatthana that are also dealing with inference. But I'm just dealing with the 32 body parts here." Scott: Okay, I'll leave this to others... TG: "I'm am not saying that ALL of the Satipatthana is dealing with inference. But I do get the argument from folks that NONE of the Satipatthana deals with inference. So I just keep plugging away showing the fallacy of that position now and then." Scott: I know, TG, you do keep plugging away! I've been thinking, though, that some of these contemplations are used, just as those on mettaa for example, for the purpose of attaining jhaana. From this point of view, it is totally understandable that concepts are used as objects of concentration. It would be important to distinguish theoretically when these 'meditation subjects' are being discussed and not to conflate concept as object with concept as paramattha dhamma. Me: "'Liver' or 'bile' are not paramattha dhammas, they are concepts; therefore pa~n~naa doesn't penetrate the 'liver' or 'bile' since these have no ultimate existence, and cannot be objects of satipa.t.thaana.s NEW TG: "Ahhh. So it seems you agree with me here and verify my point (somewhat obliquely) that the Satipatthana is not JUST dealing with realities." Scott: Well, TG, not really. Can we agree that the sutta uses conventional speech, much to the discombobulation of some readers of it? ....................................................... TG: Conventional speech yes ... Conventional "realities" or ultimate "realities"? ... no such thing. Although there are principles of conditionality which are true. ........................................................... TG: "All we discuss, every word in the Suttas, are just concepts. I find that a weird stance to call a liver a concept. Hope you don't get 'concept disease!' ;-)" Scott: Ha Ha! Only if I refrain from drinking 'conceptual Laphroaig'. ..................................................................... LOL TG OUT .......................................................... #85334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 12:43 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: What I heard: sickness and death nilovg Dear Ann, Op 5-mei-2008, om 6:36 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven: > Also about the moment of death - another moment arising and falling > away. How we can build up the "end" of this life in our minds, with > so much worry and anxiety, forgetting the moments actually arising as > we are thinking with such dosa and moha. -------- N: Thank you for highlighting this. Did you see my previous transcription? If not I send it. Nina. #85335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 1:46 am Subject: Metta, Ch 3, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Question: Reciting, repeating words aloud is useful. When there is seeing, I say to myself that this is colour, the reality which appears through eyes, or that is the nåma which sees. Khun Sujin: I do not say that it is not useful, but it is not sammå- sati of the eightfold Path, and moreover, there is no rule that one should recite words. Some people believe that there is a rule that they should recite words and they cling to this idea. There is attachment instead of sammå-sati which considers in the right way the characteristics of nåma and rúpa. When people think that the reciting of words is useful, they continue to do this again and again. They should not forget, however, that reciting, the repeating of words, arises because of its appropriate conditions and that it is not yet sammå- sati. People should find out for themselves what is more useful, reciting or sammå- sati of the eightfold Path which considers in the right way the characteristics of nåma and rúpa at the moments one does not recite. Question: Sammå-sati is certainly better, but my paññå is not yet developed to that degree. Khun Sujin: This shows that there are conditions for thinking about realities. However, at such a moment paññå should also know that there is not yet sammå-sati of the eightfold Path. When there are at a particular moment conditions for sammå-sati which is directly aware of nåma and rúpa, you can find out that the right understanding which can develop at that very moment is not the same as the reciting of words. ******* Nina. #85336 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 4, 2008 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Walto & Alex) - In a message dated 5/4/2008 10:55:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Mental development (bhavana), however, is a conditioned dhamma. It arises by conditions. There is no "bringing about" involved. If the conditions for bhavana are present then there will be bhavana. No one will be able to stop it. If the conditions for bhavana are not present then bhavana will not arise, and no one will be able to make it arise. ============================== What are those nameless conditions, Ken? From perusing the suttas it appears that some of them must pertain to roots of trees, to graveyards, and to caves. Looking for commonality, do you suppose there might be some rare fungus involved? ;-) With metta, Howard P. S. Just kidding, Ken. It's not a fungus that leads to bhavana. It's the pa~n~natti called "studying the texts". (Oh, wait, my mistake - pa~n~natti don't exist, so none could lead to anything. Sorry! ;-) #85337 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 5, 2008 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and TG) - In a message dated 5/5/2008 12:41:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi TG --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi All > > > The 32 body parts appear in the Satipatthana as a subject for mindfulness. > All these all considered 'ultimate realities' (from your viewpoint) and are > they all directly experienced? > > > Or are we looking at yet another case of inferential knowledge being applied > in the satipatthana? Nice post. Much confusion follows from the failure to realise that "ultimate realities", by any name, are a concept. It is, in principle, unknowable that any experience is an uncompounded, irreducible one. (For example, no amount of "directly knowing" white can reveal that it is a mixture of all colours, or that green is a mixture of blue and yellow). The division between what is a concept and what is ultimate reality is entirely arbitrary, and comes into being through definition only. It is not possible to experience that an experience is irreducible, it is always an inference. Cheers Herman ================================= Nice to "see" you, Herman. :-) As I see it, thinking is something that actually happens, and when we think/talk *about* thinking, we bandy about the term 'concept'. For me, actual experience (or content of consciousness), including the experience of mental activities such as thinking, experience as it is in the moment, and not projected story content is what there really is for us - nothing more and nothing less, which makes that my best candidate for "real." I would also add that at any time, the content of consciousness is just "as it is", just "such," with labels and characterizations being after-the-fact and extra. If, at the moment of experiencing, there is clarity and understanding (pa~n~na), the content stands out in sharp relief, proclaiming its quality and its tripartite, universal nature. With metta, Howard #85338 From: "colette" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 3:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... ksheri3 Good Morning TG and Scott, > NEW TG: "I don't think you've understood my point here. If the body > parts are reduced and analyzed as the four great elements, etc. Why > not the same thing for houses, boats, whatever. House, Boat, TV, > whatever are just words. The constituents of what those objects > consist of surely must be made of the things you call 'realities.'c > > Scott: No, I got it, TG. These things are conceptual. A 'house' is > not paramattha dhamma. Thinking about the constituents of the house > does nothing. colette: au contraire! Yes it does do something! Thinking and meditating about the "parts" of the house may just be the initial step in loosening the bonds that hold the house together as a contradiction to the absolute truth that it is an illusion. Something is maintaining the illusion that the house is worth something more than what it really is worth. If a student were to meditate on the parts that put together the illusion of the "house's value" then I can't see an easier way, for outsiders or lookie-loos, to begin to "realize" the house's ultimate value in a relative position. ----------------------- If this lead to cessation then an awful lot of people > would find it, given all the things we think about a lot. > colette: This is so argumentative, and I just read the "newer TG" line below, as I could not believe my eyes when he suggests what constitutes "NOT becoming enlightened". I was suggesting, to some martial artists, black belt instructors and 10th degree black belts (for what it's worth), that SLOTH arises most often in this Western capitalistic society once the easiest explanation for some unknown situation has been found, in their mind. Here TG is suggesting that the lemmings that we refer to as people, cannot and do not go up to the cliff, look over the edge, THEN DO NOT JUMP, only after first looking over the edge OR, in this case, examining the constituent parts of the house. I think examining and rationalizing and meditating on the parts is a viable way to actually "see" what suffering means and is THEREFORE is a good avenue to find the Cessation of Suffering. ---------------------------------- > NEWER TG: Thinking "about things" as things, even realities, is a recipe > for NOT becoming enlightened. colette: This is not a very good post for me to be commenting on this early in my day, IT IS SO BLATANTLY ELITIST AND ARUGMENTATIVE. I refuse to set my day up to be such a pain in my ass by allowing myself to be drawn into such ignorance. toodles, colette #85339 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 4:35 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 walterhorn Dear Ken, I had wanted not to continue this, but I find I'm unable to leave some of your remarks alone. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Walto (and Alex), > > I see what you mean, and there has been some misunderstanding. You > are thinking that the suttas refer to meditation. With respect, I don't think you've seen what I mean at all. I will let Alex and/or Howard speak for themselves. > That is a common > misapprehension. In the ancient texts there is the word "bhavana," > meaning mental development. It is commonly mistranslated today as > meditation. It may be quite common, and so may be my own variety of misapprehension, but that which you mention is nothing like anything I've ever written or thought. I take no position on proper translations of the suttas. > Meditation is an inappropriate word because, in common modern-day > usage, it refers to a deliberate practice that someone undertakes > with the idea of bringing about mental development. > > Mental development (bhavana), however, is a conditioned dhamma. It > arises by conditions. There is no "bringing about" involved. If the > conditions for bhavana are present then there will be bhavana. No one > will be able to stop it. If the conditions for bhavana are not > present then bhavana will not arise, and no one will be able to make > it arise. This is the nub. I have said, "Here are two conditions that may be helpful or even necessary to proper thinking (NB: I try to condition my readers by saying this, I suppose): a relatively full belly and an absence of anxiety. These may be achieved by eating a bit and meditating. Without those, your thinking, some may find that their thinking turns out to be a bit whack." > So, you see, the Middle Way is not a matter of half formal > (controlled) mental development and half conditioned (non- controlled) > mental development. I haven't said anything about any of that. > It is entirely about conditioned mental > development. I take it we agree that all mental states are entirely conditioned. > > It was never about the formal (deliberate) kind. The idea of formal > Buddhist meditation is a modern-day corruption that has led the > Buddhist world totally astray. In the texts, the only word for formal > meditation is "silabbataparamasa' (belief in the efficacy of rite and > ritual). Again, I am not a Buddhist scholar and make no assertions about translations, formal practices or the contemporary Buddhist world. I have been talking rather about what I take to be some confusions of yours implied by your comments about why all practitioners of meditation (formal or no) bother with it. For me, this involves no assertions regarding correct interpretations of anything whatever except the causes (or conditions, if you prefer) of a couple of human cognitive states. Best, Walto #85340 From: han tun Date: Mon May 5, 2008 5:22 am Subject: Patthaana (36) hantun1 Patthana (36) Dear Friends, We have finished (6) Conascence Condition (sahajaata-paccaya). We will now take up (7) Mutuality condition (a~n~nama~n~na-paccaya) This condition belongs to the Group of Mind-and-Matter for Mind-and-Matter. -------------------- # 18. Adhipati, sahajaata, a~n~nama~n~na, nissaya, aahaara, indriya, vippayutta, atthi, avigatavasenaa’ti yathaaraham navadhaa naamaruupaani naamaruupaanam paccayaa bhavanti. Mind-and-matter is a condition for mind-and-matter in nine ways according to circumstances, namely, by way of predominance, conascence, mutuality, support, nutriment, faculty, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance. Mutuality Condition is actually a subordinate type of conascence condition. In the general conascence condition, the conditioning state simply causes the conditioned states to arise together with itself, but no reciprocity in the conditioning force is required. However, in the mutuality condition each of the conditioning states is, at the same time and in the same way, a conditioned state in relation to the very states that it conditions. Thus a conditioning state in the relation of mutuality gives its force to the conditioned state and also receives the force of the conditioned state, which is a conditioning state relative to itself. This is compared to a tripod, each leg of which assists the other two legs reciprocally in enabling the tripod to stand upright. [A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma] -------------------- The Pali verses and their translation are as follows. A~n~nama~n~napaccayoti (1) Cattaaro khandhaa aruupino a~n~nama~n~napaccayena paccayo. The four immaterial aggregates are related to one another by mutuality condition. (2) Cattaaro mahaabhuutaa a~n~nama~n~napaccayena paccayo. The four great primaries are related to one another by mutuality condition. (1) Okkantikkhane naamaruupam a~n~nama~n~napaccayena paccayo. At the moment of conception, mentality and materiality are related to one another by mutuality condition. -------------------- Han: When we compare (6) Conascence Condition and (7) Mutuality Condition, we see that the above three types of Mutuality Condition are more or less the same as the first three types of Conascence Condition. The fourth, fifth and sixth types of Conascence Condition which are related by conascence are not related by mutuality. In (6) Conascence Condition, the ruupa produced by citta is conditioned by that citta by way of conascence, but, as we have seen, there is no relation of mutuality. That ruupa does not, in its turn, condition citta by way of mutuality-condition. The four great primaries are conascent-condition for the derived ruupas, but there is no relation of mutuality; i.e., the derived ruupas do not condition the four great primaries by way of mutuality-condition. Visible object or sound, which are derived ruupas, cannot arise without the four great primaries, but the four great primaries are not dependant on these derived ruupas. Thus, by comparing (6) Conascence Condition and (7) Mutuality Condition, we see that phenomena which are related by mutuality are related also by conascence, but not all phenomena which are related by conascence are related by mutuality as well. metta, Han Tun #85341 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: NEWER TG: Thinking 'about things' as things, even realities, is a recipe for NOT becoming enlightened. It is insight into conditional principles that leads the mind AWAY from things...including so-called 'realities.' We USE the 'things' merely as 'representations' or 'teachers' to show us the impermanent, afflicting, and nonself nature of formations. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter 'what things' we use (as long as we're not befuddled by them 'having their own essence.')..." Scott: We differ fundamentally in this, TG. While you use the word 'insight', a disavowal of 'own essence' (as you put it) puts an entirely different meaning to the term, rendering it idiosyncratic. Clearly this is not the same as when one defines 'insight' in reference to the function of an impersonal dhamma labelled 'pa~n~naa', with its own characteristics. Rather, there is focus on indistinct forces with only an apparent lip-service given to 'formations' as having 'reality' (i.e characteristic and function) hence one seems left with insubstantial ephemera. Back to 'paccavekkhati', which is used in the sutta to refer to what occurs in relation to these concepts 'bodily parts': In Note 647 to the Mahasatipa.t.thaana Sutta is stated: "Paccavekkhati. The same verb-stem is used in paccavekkha.na-~naa.na 'reviewing knowledge..." The reader is referred to a passage in DN 9 (The Long Discourses of the Buddha, Maurice Walshe): "'Lord, does perception arise before knowledge, or knowledge arise before perception, or do both arise simultaneously?' 'Perception arises first, Po.t.thapaada, then knowledge, and from the arising of perception comes the arising of knowledge. And one knows: "Thus conditioned, knowledge arises." In this way you can see how perception arises first, and then knowledge, and that from the arising of perception comes the arising of knowledge.'" ["Sa~n~naa nu kho bhante pa.thama.m uppajjati, pacchaa ~naa.na.m? Udaahu ~naa.na.m pa.thama.m uppajjati, pacchaa sa~n~naa? Udaahu sa~n~naa ca ~naa.na~nca apubba.m acarima.m uppajjantii?"Ti. "Sa~n~naa kho po.t.thapaada pa.thama.m uppajjati pacchaa ~naa.na.m. Sa~n~nuppaadaa ca pana ~naa.nuppaado hoti. So eva.m pajaanaati: idappaccayaa kira me ~naa.na.m udapaadiiti. Iminaa kho eta.m po.t.thapaada pariyaayena veditabba.m, yathaa sa~n~naa pa.thama.m uppajjati pacchaa ~naa.na.m, sa~n~nuppaado ca pana ~naa.nuppaado hotii"ti."] And Note 213: "DA offers alternative explanations: 1. 'Perception' = 'jhaana-perception', 'Knowledge' = 'insight knowledge' (vipassanaa-~naa.na.m); 2. 'Perception' = 'insight-perception', 'knowledge' = 'path-knowledge'; 3. 'Perception' = 'path-perception', 'Knowledge' = 'fruition-knowledge' (phala-~naa.na.m). He then quotes an authority as saying 'Perception' is the perception of fruition of Arahantship, and 'Knowledge' the immediately following 'reviewing-knowledge' (paccavekkha-~naa.na.m):...But in fact reviewing knowledge is said also to occur at lower stages on the enlightenment path. It is, however, this 'reviewing-knowledge' which best seems to explain just how one is supposed to know that perception arises first and then knowledge." Scott: The reviewing, I would suggest (subject to correction) would be that which relates to the (mundane) and now past penetration of pa~n~naa into the true nature of the realities that are 'constituents' of 'things'. This then is not just 'thinking' (the characteristic of dhammas other than pa~n~naa) but the workings of a particular mental factor. '~Naa.na.m' and 'pajaanaati', in the Paa.li, refer to the mental factor pa~n~naa. Let's agree to disagree, though, TG. Thanks for the discussion. Sincerely, Scott. #85342 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 5:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/5/5 : > > ================================= > Nice to "see" you, Herman. :-) Thanks, Howard. It's nice to be amongst longtime friends, again :-) > As I see it, thinking is something that actually happens, and when we > think/talk *about* thinking, we bandy about the term 'concept'. For me, actual > experience (or content of consciousness), including the experience of mental > activities such as thinking, experience as it is in the moment, and not > projected story content is what there really is for us - nothing more and nothing > less, which makes that my best candidate for "real." I would also add that at > any time, the content of consciousness is just "as it is", just "such," > with labels and characterizations being after-the-fact and extra. If, at the > moment of experiencing, there is clarity and understanding (pa~n~na), the > content stands out in sharp relief, proclaiming its quality and its tripartite, > universal nature. We are in full agreement. Cheers Herman #85343 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: sickness and death nilovg Dear Han, Op 5-mei-2008, om 4:51 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > The moment of dying is actually like being fast asleep, there is no > pain and no need for fear. It is very natural. > > Han: I hope I die like that with no pain and no fear. ------- The cuticitta, dyingconsciousness is of the same type as the bhavangacitta which does not experience fear or pain. It is the same as when you are fast asleep, no impingement of objects on the sense bases nor through the mind-door. But before the cuticitta there may be pain and fear, we do not know. Nina. #85344 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (142) nilovg Dear Han, I select some parts of the sutta to make the post not too long. Op 5-mei-2008, om 8:04 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > (1) There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the > Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has > established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, and > respect. > > (2) As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a > respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a > strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, and respect, he > approaches him at the appropriate times to ask and question him. -------- N: The Commentary: pa~n~naa is here vipassana pa~n~naa. As you see here the beginning is association with the right Dhamma friend or teacher, and ask questions. Thus, discussion. ---------- > > H: (5) He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has > stored what he has heard. ------- N: Right remembrance of the Dhamma one has heard is a proximate cause for the arising of sati of the level of satipatthaana. --------- > > H: (8) He remains focused on arising and passing away with regard > to the five aggregates. > --------------------- > N: The first Principal insight is realizing the arising and falling > away of nama and rupa. -------- > Han: The question here is are you satisfied with the above eight > causes and the eight requisite conditions? Can you think of > anything else which would help the acquiring of the as-yet- > unacquired discernment, and to the increase, plenitude, > development, and culmination of that which has already been acquired? ------- N: Listening to the right Dhamma friends again and again, so that understanding of the pariyatti level grows. Pariyatti is understanding of the dhamma appearing now, it pertains to the present moment. When listening in the beginning, there cannot yet be clear understanding, but after a long time the things one hears become more and more meaningful. Take the sentence: everything is dhamma. In the case of painful feeling, this is dhamma. It does not belong to us, it is conditioned, and when it is time for its arising nobody can prevent it from arising. Nina. #85345 From: han tun Date: Mon May 5, 2008 6:49 am Subject: Re: What I heard: sickness and death hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: The cuticitta, dying consciousness is of the same type as the bhavangacitta which does not experience fear or pain. It is the same as when you are fast asleep, no impingement of objects on the sense bases nor through the mind-door. Han: But how long the cuticitta will last to let the dying person know that there is no pain or fear? Respectfully, Han #85346 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 6:53 am Subject: Q. Re: [dsg] Patthaana (36) nilovg Dear Han, Op 5-mei-2008, om 14:22 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > When we compare (6) Conascence Condition and (7) Mutuality > Condition, we see that the above three types of Mutuality Condition > are more or less the same as the first three types of Conascence > Condition. -------- N: I want to add: it is amazing how the akusala cetasikas assist each other and the citta they accompany and how sobhana cetasikas assist each other and the kusala citta they accompany. Taking pleasant feeling, it has a different quality when it accompanies lobha- muulacitta and when it accompanies kusala citta. Don't you find that it is different when you like good food and when you appreciate someone else's kusala? In the latter case it is more refined, calm. There are many sobhana cetasikas accompanying kusala: calm, evenmindedness (tatramajjhattataa), hiri, ottappa, confidence in kusala, mindfulness. They all condition the pleasant feeling that is kusala. Also in the case of effort and concentration. When these accompany akusala citta with clinging they are different from when they accompany kusala citta. One may take great effort to reach something with clinging to an idea of self, and this is different from the well balanced effort that accompanies kusala citta. Nina. #85347 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: sickness and death nilovg Dear Han, Op 5-mei-2008, om 15:49 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Nina: The cuticitta, dying consciousness is of the same type as the > bhavangacitta which does not experience fear or pain. It is the > same as when you are fast asleep, no impingement of objects on the > sense bases nor through the mind-door. > > Han: But how long the cuticitta will last to let the dying person > know that there is no pain or fear? ------ N: Just one extremely short moment. It cannot let anybody know anything. And even rebirth-consciousness that succeeds the cuticitta and the subsequent bhavangacittas: these are not experiencing any object through any doorway. It is as it is, nobody can change anything. Nina. #85348 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 7:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: What I heard: sickness and death szmicio > Dear Han, > Op 5-mei-2008, om 15:49 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > > > Nina: The cuticitta, dying consciousness is of the same type as the > > bhavangacitta which does not experience fear or pain. It is the > > same as when you are fast asleep, no impingement of objects on the > > sense bases nor through the mind-door. > > > > Han: But how long the cuticitta will last to let the dying person > > know that there is no pain or fear? > ------ > N: Just one extremely short moment. It cannot let anybody know > anything. And even rebirth-consciousness that succeeds the cuticitta > and the subsequent bhavangacittas: these are not experiencing any > object through any doorway. > It is as it is, nobody can change anything. > Nina. Dear Nina, We talk about cuticitta, but How could we know the chracteristic of cuticitta? How can be sure anything about cuticitta?It's arising at the death moment. Is it a some kind of faith? bye Lukas #85349 From: han tun Date: Mon May 5, 2008 7:13 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (142) hantun1 Dear Nina, Text: (1) There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, and respect. (2) As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, and respect, he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask and question him. -------- Nina: The Commentary: pa~n~naa is here vipassana pa~n~naa. As you see here the beginning is association with the right Dhamma friend or teacher, and ask questions. Thus, discussion. Han: Right. I agree with your comment. ========== Text: (5) He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. ------- Nina: Right remembrance of the Dhamma one has heard is a proximate cause for the arising of sati of the level of satipatthaana. Han: In the Text the proximate cause for wisdom is mentioned as concentration or the four (noble) truths. Would you say that the arising of wisdom and the arising of sati of the level of satipatthaana the same? If they are the same, how do we have two proximate causes? Or, are they different? ========== Text: (8) He remains focused on arising and passing away with regard to the five aggregates. --------- Nina: The first Principal insight is realizing the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. Han: Yes, that is true. ========== > Han: The question here is are you satisfied with the above eight causes and the eight requisite conditions? Can you think of anything else which would help the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment, and to the increase, plenitude, development, and culmination of that which has already been acquired? ------- Nina: Listening to the right Dhamma friends again and again, so that understanding of the pariyatti level grows. Pariyatti is understanding of the dhamma appearing now, it pertains to the present moment. When listening in the beginning, there cannot yet be clear understanding, but after a long time the things one hears become more and more meaningful. Take the sentence: everything is dhamma. In the case of painful feeling, this is dhamma. It does not belong to us, it is conditioned, and when it is time for its arising nobody can prevent it from arising. Han: Very useful comments indeed. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #85350 From: "connie" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 7:19 am Subject: Perfections Corner (143) nichiconn Dear Friends, We read in the "Khuddhaka Nikaaya" in the Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct", the "Conduct of Yuda~njaya", about the beginning of the development of pa~n~naa during the life the Bodhisatta was young Yuda~njaya *1: *1 See Jaataka no. 460. "In his life when the Bodhisatta was Yuda~njaya, he was the eldest son of the King and had the rank of the viceroy. He fulfilled every day mahaa-daana *1, the giving of an abundance of gifts. One day when he visited the royal park he saw the dewdrops hanging like a string of pearls on the tree-tops, the grass-tips, the end of the branches and on the spiders' webs. *1 The word mahaa-daana is mostly used for the great offering of gifts to the Sangha. The prince enjoyed himself in the royal park and when the sun rose higher all the dewdrops that were hanging there disintegrated and disappeared. He reflected thus: 'These dewdrops came into being and then disappeared. Evenso are conditioned realities, the lives of all beings; they are like the dewdrops hanging on the grass-tips.' He felt a sense of urgency and became disenchanted with worldly life, so that he took leave of his parents and became a recluse." From this story we can learn that people have different degrees of understanding. We may see dew drops hanging on grass-tips, but who has pa~n~naa to the degree of causing a sense of urgency and disenchantment when he compares his own life with the evanescent dew? We read: "The Bodhisatta realized the impermanence of the dewdrops and made this predominant in accumulating a sense of urgency and disenchantment; it arose once and then became a condition leading to its arising very often." When right understanding with a sense of urgency arises we should not let it pass by without paying attention to it. We should reflect on the conditions for this sense of urgency so that it can arise more often. The thought of death and impermanence can be a condition for further developing the perfections. ..to be continued, connie #85351 From: han tun Date: Mon May 5, 2008 7:29 am Subject: Re: Patthaana (36) hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: I want to add: it is amazing how the akusala cetasikas assist each other and the citta they accompany and how sobhana cetasikas assist each other and the kusala citta they accompany. Taking pleasant feeling, it has a different quality when it accompanies lobha-muulacitta and when it accompanies kusala citta. Don't you find that it is different when you like good food and when you appreciate someone else's kusala? In the latter case it is more refined, calm. There are many sobhana cetasikas accompanying kusala: calm, evenmindedness (tatramajjhattataa) , hiri, ottappa, confidence in kusala, mindfulness. They all condition the pleasant feeling that is kusala. Also in the case of effort and concentration. When these accompany akusala citta with clinging they are different from when they accompany kusala citta. One may take great effort to reach something with clinging to an idea of self, and this is different from the well balanced effort that accompanies kusala citta. -------------------- Han: Very useful comments, Nina, thank you very much. I have noted them all. Respectfully, Han #85352 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 7:47 am Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 7. walterhorn Dear Nina, Dear Nina, I can't help noticing the near fixation on this matter. As an outsider, I keep getting the sense that some of these remarks have been conditioned by long-drawn out and troublesome disputes over this matter. To wit: > > Dear friends, > > Question: Reciting, repeating words aloud is useful..... > > Khun Sujin: I do not say that it is not useful.... [snip] > When people > think that > the reciting of words is useful, they continue to do this again > and > again. They > should not forget, however, that reciting, the repeating of words, > arises > because of its appropriate conditions and that it is not yet sammå- > sati. People > should find out for themselves what is more useful, reciting or sammå- > sati of > the eightfold Path which considers in the right way the > characteristics of nåma > and rúpa at the moments one does not recite. > > Question: Sammå-sati is certainly better, but my paññå is not yet > developed > to that degree. > > Khun Sujin: This shows that there are conditions for thinking about > realities. > However, at such a moment paññå should also know that there is not yet > sammå-sati of the eightfold Path. When there are at a particular moment > conditions for sammå-sati which is directly aware of nåma and rúpa, > you can > find out that the right understanding which can develop at that very > moment > is not the same as the reciting of words. Can't one say, "You concur that recitation may be useful. We are in agreement, since that's all I've ever suggested. I understand that it neither is nor guarantees right understanding, that it is not sammå- sati of the eightfold Path, that in many cases time could be better spent in doing or thinking other things, even that both reciting and meditating may be harmful if we forget that they can never be more than a help for some people in certain circumstances, that they and/or the states they produce should never be thought of as ends in themselves." I mean, why can't the farmer and the cowman just be friends? All best, Walto #85353 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 7:51 am Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: What I heard: sickness and death glenjohnann Dear Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Thank you for highlighting this. > Did you see my previous transcription? If not I send it. > Nina. Yes, thanks Nina, I saw that too, and recognized it from the Sunday session. It is so helpful to have these translated. Best to you both Ann #85354 From: "Alex" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 8:08 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 truth_aerator Dear Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Walto (and Alex), > > I see what you mean, and there has been some misunderstanding. You > are thinking that the suttas refer to meditation. That is a common > misapprehension. In the ancient texts there is the word "bhavana," > meaning mental development. It is commonly mistranslated today as > meditation. >>> Or Samma-Samadhi, Jhana. > > Meditation is an inappropriate word because, in common modern-day > usage, it refers to a deliberate practice that someone undertakes > with the idea of bringing about mental development. >>>>> Ok, so let us rename it if you don't like the meaning. In meditation there is a temporary letting go of lower states. > Mental development (bhavana), however, is a conditioned dhamma. It > arises by conditions. There is no "bringing about" involved. If the > conditions for bhavana are present then there will be bhavana. No one will be able to stop it. If the conditions for bhavana are not > present then bhavana will not arise, and no one will be able to make it arise. >>> True. It IS conditioned. Any Jhana is CONDITIONED. Some of the conditions are: removal of hindrances and obstructive states, bodily and mental seclusion, bringing mind to singleness. Please don't materialize the conceptual words above. It IS an impersonal process, conditioned and impermanent. It is just a higher level process that can bring more letting go. > > So, you see, the Middle Way is not a matter of half formal > (controlled) mental development and half conditioned (non- controlled) mental development. It is entirely about conditioned mental development. > Yes. You can't fully control thoughts and so on. But there CAN be links in the chain of DO that may be impersonally weakened or broken. > It was never about the formal (deliberate) kind. The idea of formal > Buddhist meditation is a modern-day corruption that has led the > Buddhist world totally astray. In the texts, the only word for formal meditation is "silabbataparamasa' (belief in the efficacy of rite and > ritual). > > Ken H > Does Jhana count as silabbataparamasa? Do you deny that Buddha reached Jhanas? Do you deny him achieved 4 right strivings, 4 right efforts and the rest of 37 wings to awakening? Best wishes, Alex #85355 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon May 5, 2008 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... TGrand458@... Hi All "...Whatever kind of form ... feeling ... perception ... volitional formations ... consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior of superior, far or near: A Bhikkhu inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in form?" (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 951 - 952) “However one might ponder it And carefully investigate it, It appears but hollow and void When one views it carefully. Such is this continuum, This illusion, beguiler of fools It is taught to be a murderer; Here no substance can be found.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 953) TG #85356 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard: sickness and death nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 5-mei-2008, om 16:12 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > We talk about cuticitta, but How could we know the chracteristic of > cuticitta? How can be sure anything about cuticitta?It's arising at > the death moment. > Is it a some kind of faith? ------- N: Nobody can know the moment of cuticitta, but all we know is that it is like the bhavangacittas that arise all the time during life in between processes and when we are fast asleep and not dreaming. We learn through the Abhidhamma. Nina. #85357 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (142) nilovg Dear Han, Op 5-mei-2008, om 16:13 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > In the Text the proximate cause for wisdom is mentioned as > concentration or the four (noble) truths. Would you say that the > arising of wisdom and the arising of sati of the level of > satipatthaana the same? If they are the same, how do we have two > proximate causes? Or, are they different? ------- N: Sati and pa~n~naa are different. Sati has firm remembrance and also the four Applications of mindfulness as proximate cause. Text Vis.Ch XIV, 141: Its proximate cause is strong perception (thirasaññaa). N: Firm remembrance is the proximate cause of sati. When one listens to the Dhamma and considers it again and again there can be firm remembrance of what one has heard, and thus, there are conditions for the arising of sati which is mindful of the naama or ruupa appearing at the present moment. Text Vis. : or its proximate cause is the foundations of mindfulness concerned with the body, and so on (see M. Sutta 10). N: The four Applications of Mindfulness include all naamas and ruupas that can be the objects of mindfulness. When they have become the objects or bases for sati they are the proximate cause of mindfulness. The four Applications of Mindfulness remind us that naama and ruupa occurring in daily life are the objects of mindfulness. We are reminded to be aware of naama and ruupa no matter whether we are walking, standing, sitting of lying down. Also when akusala citta arises it can be object of mindfulness, it is classified under the Application of Mindfulness of citta. One should learn to see citta in citta and not take akusala citta for self. ------- I Sympathize with the Birmese people. I hope your family is all right. Nina. #85358 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 11:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 7. nilovg Dear Walto, Op 5-mei-2008, om 16:47 heeft Walter Horn het volgende geschreven: > I can't help noticing the near fixation on this matter. As an > outsider, I keep getting the sense that some of these remarks have > been conditioned by long-drawn out and troublesome disputes over this > matter. ------ N: Yes, I thought of you when reading this part. This book on Metta is actually just spoken words, and if I would translate now, I would have made it shorter. -------- W: Can't one say, "You concur that recitation may be useful. We are in agreement, since that's all I've ever suggested. I understand that it neither is nor guarantees right understanding, that it is not sammå- sati of the eightfold Path, that in many cases time could be better spent in doing or thinking other things, even that both reciting and meditating may be harmful if we forget that they can never be more than a help for some people in certain circumstances, that they and/or the states they produce should never be thought of as ends in themselves." ------- N: You summarize the matter very carefully here. I think the listeners repeated all the time about reciting, and thus, how can one answer such questions. On the other hand, I do not mind reading the book as it is. That person wanted to recite or repeat aloud: this is colour, this is seeing, but while saying this, the dhammas have gone already for quite some time. He will not know the present moment in that way. How to help this person? Trying to point out what is the right Path. To help him understanding what is sammå-sati of the eightfold Path which considers in the right way the characteristics of nåma and rúpa. Note: characteristics of nama and rupa that appear. Further on she will talk about this more. Nina. #85359 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (143) nilovg Dear Connie, Op 5-mei-2008, om 16:19 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > When right understanding with a sense of urgency arises we should > not let it pass by without paying attention to it. ------ N: When in Thailand we discussed a sense of urgency. We should not think: now I must have a sense of urgency, it is not a matter of thinking, and such thinking is likely to be motivated by clinging to self. When there are conditions for the arising of sati and it is aware of a dhamma appearing now, there is samvega already. Sati does not let pass an opportunity for awareness, that is its nature. Nina. #85360 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (140) nilovg Dear Connie, thank you for your description of the Mahavasthu. There must also be common ground in these stories. But do they remind us of the present moment? Perhaps it depends on the reader. Nina. Op 5-mei-2008, om 1:11 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Mostly, it reads like a great story collection - often different > versions of the same one right after each other, some closer to the > versions we're used to than others, but pretty much all familiar > stuff & covering a lot of common ground. Great descriptions of the > hells, btw, in a condensed version of our "Stories of the Departed". #85361 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 12:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (142) nilovg Hi Mike, Op 4-mei-2008, om 23:49 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > "Wisdom (pa~n~naa)... > > concentration or the four > > (noble) truths, is its proximate cause." > > The CMA lists 'wise attention' as the proximate cause of pa~n~naa. > Can anyone tell me if there's any further explanation of this in The > Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct"? Seems to me the above could > lead to considerable misunderstanding. -------- N: Wise attention is the proximate cause for all kusala. There is a text: who is concentrated knows things as they really are, and this was discussed before. It refers to states of insight where concentration has grown together with understanding. I know what you mean as to misunderstandings, but there need not be. The four noble Truths: we have to think here of the three rounds of knowing these: sacca ~naa.na, which is already firm understanding, not merely theoretical, kicca ~naa.na, the practice, kata ~naa.na, penetration of the Truths that has been realized. I am too short now, lack of time, but there are already posts about these three rounds. Nina. #85362 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 5, 2008 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment ... ? .. Jhana requires panna! - II nilovg Dear Alex, Op 4-mei-2008, om 22:45 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Nina, Scott, KenH and other smart people. Are you arahants, once > returners? Is KS an Arahant? Some of you have been studying far more > than 7 years or 7 days required for Arahatship. What paths and > fruititions have you reached? ------ N: This is not the right approach, a question like that. We discuss Dhamma here, not attainments or non-attainments of persons. Now see Howard's answer, he answered your post very well. Nina. #85363 From: "Walter Horn" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 12:39 pm Subject: Re: Metta, Ch 3, no 7. walterhorn Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > That > person wanted to recite or repeat aloud: this is colour, this is > seeing, but while saying this, the dhammas have gone already for > quite some time. He will not know the present moment in that way. Thanks. That seems to me a very good point and one that I agree should not be forgotten. Best, Walto #85364 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 2:51 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 kenhowardau Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Ken (and Walto & Alex) - > > In a message dated 5/4/2008 10:55:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Mental development (bhavana), however, is a conditioned dhamma. It > arises by conditions. There is no "bringing about" involved. If the > conditions for bhavana are present then there will be bhavana. No one > will be able to stop it. If the conditions for bhavana are not > present then bhavana will not arise, and no one will be able to make > it arise. > > > ============================== > What are those nameless conditions, Ken? -------------- Basically, they are panna - acting by way of xyz-condition. (Ask other DSG posters for more details on paccaya.) :-) ---------------------- H: > From perusing the suttas it appears that some of them must pertain to roots of trees, to graveyards, and to caves. ----------------------- I don't think that could be right. Are foresters, gravediggers and bats especially well-known for their bhavana? ------------------------------ H: > Looking for commonality, do you suppose there might be some rare fungus involved? ;-) With metta, Howard P. S. Just kidding, Ken. It's not a fungus that leads to bhavana. It's the pa~n~natti called "studying the texts". (Oh, wait, my mistake - pa~n~natti don't exist, so none could lead to anything. Sorry! ;-) ------------------------------ :-) Can we just say panna (past and present) is the condition for more panna? Ken H #85365 From: han tun Date: Mon May 5, 2008 3:56 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (142) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your comprehensive explanations. It is all very clear now. ---------- N: Sati and pa~n~naa are different. Sati has firm remembrance and also the four Applications of mindfulness as proximate cause. Text Vis.Ch XIV, 141: Its proximate cause is strong perception (thirasaññaa). N: Firm remembrance is the proximate cause of sati. When one listens to the Dhamma and considers it again and again there can be firm remembrance of what one has heard, and thus, there are conditions for the arising of sati which is mindful of the naama or ruupa appearing at the present moment. Text Vis. : or its proximate cause is the foundations of mindfulness concerned with the body, and so on (see M. Sutta 10). N: The four Applications of Mindfulness include all naamas and ruupas that can be the objects of mindfulness. When they have become the objects or bases for sati they are the proximate cause of mindfulness. The four Applications of Mindfulness remind us that naama and ruupa occurring in daily life are the objects of mindfulness. We are reminded to be aware of naama and ruupa no matter whether we are walking, standing, sitting of lying down. Also when akusala citta arises it can be object of mindfulness, it is classified under the Application of Mindfulness of citta. One should learn to see citta in citta and not take akusala citta for self. ---------- Respectfully, Han P.S. Up until last night I could not contact with my relatives and friends in Yangon. I think the telephone lines and power lines are all down, and those who have mobile phones may not be able to charge their batteries due to no electricity. #85366 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (143) egberdina Hi Nina, 2008/5/6 Nina van Gorkom : > Dear Connie, > Op 5-mei-2008, om 16:19 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > >> When right understanding with a sense of urgency arises we should >> not let it pass by without paying attention to it. > ------ > N: When in Thailand we discussed a sense of urgency. We should not > think: now I must have a sense of urgency, it is not a matter of > thinking, and such thinking is likely to be motivated by clinging to > self. When there are conditions for the arising of sati and it is > aware of a dhamma appearing now, there is samvega already. Sati does > not let pass an opportunity for awareness, that is its nature. > Nina. > Any and all thinking is conditioned. That includes thinking I should do this or I shouldn't do that. One cannot make oneself think anything. But are you saying that the conditioned arising of the thought " I must have a sense of urgency" cannot be wholesome, or a condition for future wholesomeness? Cheers Herman #85367 From: han tun Date: Mon May 5, 2008 4:19 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (143) hantun1 Dear Nina, Text: When right understanding with a sense of urgency arises we should not let it pass by without paying attention to it. ------ Nina: When in Thailand we discussed a sense of urgency. We should not think: now I must have a sense of urgency, it is not a matter of thinking, and such thinking is likely to be motivated by clinging to self. When there are conditions for the arising of sati and it is aware of a dhamma appearing now, there is samvega already. Sati does not let pass an opportunity for awareness, that is its nature. Han: Is some level of pa~n~naa not necessary for the arising of samvega? Respectfully, Han #85368 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 5, 2008 4:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (142) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > P.S. Up until last night I could not contact with my relatives and > friends in Yangon. I think the telephone lines and power lines are all > down, and those who have mobile phones may not be able to charge their > batteries due to no electricity. ... S: It's a huge disaster in Yangon and the countryside. We're thinking of your family, friends and all those who have survived or are grieving for lost relatives. I'm sure everyone is focussing on water and shelter in the first instance, so please be patient if you don't hear from your family for a while. So again, now is the time for patience, courage and wisdom. There are still opportunities to develop all the paramis even when there is a limit to what we can physically do. Metta, Sarah (& Jon) p.s. let us know when you hear from your family. ===================== #85369 From: "Alex" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 4:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (143) truth_aerator Dear Herman and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Any and all thinking is conditioned. That includes thinking I should > do this or I shouldn't do that. One cannot make oneself think > anything. >>> Conditioned yes, but not to the point of 100% determinism. Otherwise there wouldn't be the possibility (at least sometimes, in non extreme circumstances) of abandoning unskillful and developing skillful habits. "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful. Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html Thoughts CAN be controlled, although with great difficulty since they are anatta. Vitakkasanthana Sutta "When a monk is intent on the heightened mind, there are five themes he should attend to at the appropriate times. ... "Now when a monk... attending to another theme... scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts... paying no mind and paying no attention to those thoughts... attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts... beating down, constraining and crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it: He is then called a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering and stress http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html If everything is 100% conditioned, then the Kamma is meaningless and this is more like determinism or Jainism. Conditionality doesn't imply 100% determinism. Best wishes, Alex #85370 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 5, 2008 12:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 5/5/2008 5:51:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Can we just say panna (past and present) is the condition for more panna? ================================= Sure we can say it! ;-)) With metta, Howard #85371 From: mlnease@... Date: Mon May 5, 2008 5:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (142) m_nease Hi Han, Best wishes to all your friends and family. I have very fond memories of (what I knew as) Rangoon and its people. All the best to all of them and to all of us and everyone else, come to think of it. mike > P.S. Up until last night I could not contact with my > relatives and friends in Yangon. I think the telephone > lines and power lines are all down, and those who have > mobile phones may not be able to charge their batteries > due to no electricity. #85372 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 5, 2008 5:55 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,256 Vism.XVII,257 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 256. 3. 'As to purpose': although formations of merit, etc., are of course dealt with in the same way in the description of becoming and in the description of formations (see Vbh. 135 and 137), nevertheless the repetition has a purpose. For in the former case it was because it was a condition, as past kamma, for rebirth-linking here [in this becoming], while in the latter case it is because it is a condition, as present kamma, for rebirth-linking in the future [becoming]. Or alternatively, in the former instance, in the passage beginning, 'Herein, what is the formation of merit? It is profitable volition of the sense sphere' (Vbh. 135), it was only volitions that were called 'formations'; but here, with the words 'All kamma that leads to becoming' (Vbh. 137), the states associated with the volition are also included. And in the former instance it was only such kamma as is a condition for consciousness that was called 'formations'; but now also that which generates non-percipient becoming is included. 257. But why so many words? In the clause 'With ignorance as condition there are formations', only profitable and unprofitable states are expressed as the formation of merit, etc.; but in the clause 'With clinging as condition, becoming', profitable and unprofitable and also functional states are expressed because of the inclusion of rebirth-process becoming. So this repetition has a purpose in each case. This is how the exposition should be known 'as to purpose here'. ********************** 256. saatthatoti yathaa ca bhavaniddese, tatheva kaama.m sa"nkhaaraniddesepi pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaraadayova vuttaa, eva.m santepi purime atiitakammavasena idha pa.tisandhiyaa paccayattaa, ime paccuppannakammavasena aayati.m pa.tisandhiyaa paccayattaati punavacana.m saatthakameva, pubbe vaa ``tattha katamo pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaro? kusalaa cetanaa kaamaavacaraa''ti (vibha0 226) evamaadinaa nayena cetanaava sa"nkhaaraati vuttaa. idha pana ``sabbampi bhavagaamikamma''nti (vibha0 234) vacanato cetanaasampayuttaapi. pubbe ca vi~n~naa.napaccayameva kamma.m ``sa"nkhaaraa´´ti vutta.m. idaani asa~n~naabhavanibbattakampi. 257. ki.m vaa bahunaa, ``avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa''ti ettha pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaraadayova kusalaakusalaa dhammaa vuttaa. ``upaadaanapaccayaa bhavo´´ti idha pana upapattibhavassaapi sa"ngahitattaa kusalaakusalaabyaakataa dhammaa vuttaa. tasmaa sabbathaapi saatthakamevida.m punavacananti evamettha saatthatopi vi~n~naatabbo vinicchayo. #85373 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 5:59 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 kenhowardau Hi Alex, You respond to posts so quickly that I get left behind. I still owe you a few replies. A couple of days ago I said something about the conventional meaning of "goal" and how that meaning must change when we consider the Buddha's teaching (of anatta). I wrote: > > . . .But the Buddha said there was no self - nothing that goes on. So where does that leave our ordinary definition of goal? It suddenly becomes completely meaningless, doesn't it? > > You replied: > Right meditation serves as a TOOL (and nothing more) to reach that goal. <. . .> > So what happened to my question about the meaning of 'goal?' OK, maybe it was a rhetorical question, but did you agree with the point I was making? It seems to me that you were refusing to stop and think about anatta. The teaching of anatta shows us (or should show us) that the world is actually very different from the way it seems. Anatta must not be glossed over. If it is glossed over then communication between Dhamma students will be very difficult. Some of us will be talking about the absolute reality taught by the Buddha, while others will be talking about the old (conventional) understanding of reality that existed before the Buddha ever taught. I don't mean to single you out. This is a very common failing among Dhamma students. People don't want to stop and savour the meaning of anatta. They just want to rush ahead with the same understanding they had before. One topic in which communication is especially difficult is that of 'practice' (either samatha or vipassana practice). The point that I and others try to make is that practice is a conditioned reality. It is not a concept. It is not a concept of something we can 'do.' It is a conditioned reality that arises when the conditions for it are present. But you, Alex (forgive me for getting personal) refuse to cooperate. You just repeat "But the Buddha and his monks practised samatha and vipassana" as if I am somehow disagreeing with such an obvious statement. Of course monks practiced vipassana! But vipasana is a conditioned dhamma. It arises by conditions - not by rite or ritual. If you have the impression that ignorant people can practice vipassana - just by trying really hard - then you should think again. Vipassana and samatha arise when they are conditioned to arise. (And conditions are beyond anyone's control.) --------- <. . .> Alex: > Does Jhana count as silabbataparamasa? Do you deny that Buddha reached Jhanas? Do you deny him achieved 4 right strivings, 4 right efforts and the rest of 37 wings to awakening? --------- That's the sort of thing I am talking about. I and several others here try to discuss the Dhamma in terms of conditioned namas and rupas rather than in terms of people and conventional activities (concepts). Whenever we do this, you and others accuse us of denying everything the Buddha ever taught! It's a crazy situation. ---------- <. . .> KH: > > So, you see, the Middle Way is not a matter of half formal > (controlled) mental development and half conditioned (non- controlled) mental development. It is entirely about conditioned mental development. > A > Yes. You can't fully control thoughts and so on. But there CAN be links in the chain of DO that may be impersonally weakened or broken. --------- Now we're talking! :-) We don't agree, but at least we are talking about anatta. Can thoughts be controlled: can they be partially controlled: can we talk about things happening "impersonally" and still have an idea of a deliberate vipassana (or samatha) practice? My answer is "No, not according to the Buddha's Dhamma." According to the Dhamma our world is nothing more than fleeting, impersonal, conditioned namas and rupas. Any development of samatha or vipassana (or of anything else that is real) is going to be done by conditioned namas, not by permanent entities. Ken H #85374 From: "Alex" Date: Mon May 5, 2008 7:38 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 truth_aerator Dear Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > A couple of days ago I said something about the conventional meaning > of "goal" and how that meaning must change when we consider the > Buddha's teaching (of anatta). >>> Where did I say that an atta reaches a "goal"? It is impersonal process ending ALL suffering. Just because someone like me or the Buddha used conventional words, it doesn't mean that they fully meant attaditthi behind them. For grammatical and communicative purposes the conventional words may be used. I wrote: > > . . .But the Buddha > said there was no self - nothing that goes on. So where does that > leave our ordinary definition of goal? It suddenly becomes completely meaningless, doesn't it? > > > Is suffering something painful? Yes! Is End of suffering good? Yes! Is it a worthy goal to end suffering? Without going into another pedantism about "worthy", "goal", "end", "suffering", the answer is YES. Q: How many Buddhist scholars take to change a light bulb? A: THe Buddhist scholars after deliberating all night were unable to precisely define and agree on the exact meaning of a light bulb. Meanwhile the sun came up... > You replied: > Right meditation serves as a TOOL (and nothing > more) to reach that goal. <. . .> > > > So what happened to my question about the meaning of 'goal?' OK, > maybe it was a rhetorical question, but did you agree with the point I was making? > See above. > It seems to me that you were refusing to stop and think about anatta. The teaching of anatta shows us (or should show us) that the world is actually very different from the way it seems. > Yes, I call that stopping and intuitively (not vitakka izing) seeing Anatta-in-action called MEDITATION! > > I don't mean to single you out. This is a very common failing among > Dhamma students. People don't want to stop and savour the meaning of anatta. >>> Right on! Preach it brother! I am all with you on this one! Count me in! Meditation again. An awesome stopping and savouring the anatta and satipatthana. >> They just want to rush ahead with the same understanding they had before. >>> IMHO, understanding is of 3 sorts. Suttamayapanna, Cittamayapanna, and BHAVANAMAYAPANNA. > > One topic in which communication is especially difficult is that > of 'practice' (either samatha or vipassana practice). The point that I and others try to make is that practice is a conditioned reality. It is not a concept. >>> And where did I say that Jhana (or satipatthana) is unconditioned? Even the highest meditative states ARE CONDITIONED. >>> It is not a concept of something we can 'do.' It is a conditioned reality that arises when the conditions for it are present. > I've said it a billion times b4. Where did I say it was unconditioned? It does require conditions. You sound like an Arahant, Ken. You certainly know more than most Arahants to be have known. You and a number of others are REALLY knowledgeble. With such understandings of Anatta, you should really be able to enter all 4 jhanas at will. After all, you don't believe in a self and thus no sensual desire, ill will, sloth/torpor/, restlessness and doubt can arise due to Avijja, Moha and so on. Best Wishes, Alex #85375 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 6, 2008 1:33 am Subject: Metta, Ch 3, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, Question: If I recite words over and over, for a long time, sati can arise often and then I can investigate realities with understanding. Khun Sujin: This is understanding of the level of thinking, it is intellectual understanding. There is not yet direct awareness of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa. You spend a lot of time reciting, repeating words, but it would be better if there could be sammå-sati which begins to be aware in the right way of the characteristics of some nåmas and rúpas, little by little. Even though there is not yet precise knowledge of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa and there is not yet clear understanding of their true nature, you can begin to be mindful of their characteristics. Thus it can gradually become one’s inclination to be mindful of the realities which appear. The arising of sammå- sati depends on conditions, but when it arises there is direct awareness of nåma and rúpa and this is more useful than the reciting of words. Question: That is right. If there can be awareness and direct understanding of the reality which appears as rúpa or as nåma, paññå has developed already to a certain level. However, when someone is a beginner in the practice, paññå has not reached that level yet. Khun Sujin: Those who are beginners have different accumulations. If people have right understanding of the characteristic of sammå-sati, it can arise. One may not yet be accomplished in the development of paññå, but one knows the characteristic of sammå-sati, the reality which is mindful and directly aware of the nåma which sees or hears or the rúpa which appears through one of the senses or the mind. When there is right awareness the characteristic of the reality which appears can be studied and investigated. It is true that we cannot prevent thinking from arising, but we should not cling to it and believe that it is a rule that we should think of words for a long time and repeat them to ourselves in order that sammå-sati can arise afterwards. ******* Nina. #85376 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 6, 2008 12:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (143) egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/5/6 Alex : > Dear Herman and all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: >> >> Any and all thinking is conditioned. That includes thinking I should >> do this or I shouldn't do that. One cannot make oneself think >> anything. >>>> > > Conditioned yes, but not to the point of 100% determinism. Otherwise > there wouldn't be the possibility (at least sometimes, in non extreme > circumstances) of abandoning unskillful and developing skillful > habits. > Thanks for your comments. On the face of it, we differ. But I would not be surprised that if we discussed this a little further that we are actually in full agreement. Let's see :-) > > "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is > unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I > would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful. > Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is > skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I > would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is > possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is > skillful.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html > A super text to quote in this instance, and any other occasion, for that matter! There is definitely, and without a doubt, the possibility to abandon what is unskillful. And whether it is because of a prompt from the master, or the seeming spontaneous arising of the thought, when such a seed falls in fertile soil, it will bear fruit. But the important thing to realise in this context is that a prompt from the master is also conditioned. The Buddha is as much a product of conditions as any other being. > > Thoughts CAN be controlled, although with great difficulty since they > are anatta. I agree, thoughts can be controlled. But only through the interplay of dominant conditions over weaker ones, and not by a self. > > Vitakkasanthana Sutta > "When a monk is intent on the heightened mind, there are five themes > he should attend to at the appropriate times. ... > "Now when a monk... attending to another theme... scrutinizing the > drawbacks of those thoughts... paying no mind and paying no attention > to those thoughts... attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication > with regard to those thoughts... beating down, constraining and > crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right > within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it: He is then called > a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks > whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he > doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — > through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of > suffering and stress > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html > > > If everything is 100% conditioned, then the Kamma is meaningless and > this is more like determinism or Jainism. What would there be outside of conditionality that could determine phenomena? Causeless events for sure, but I wouldn't know whether such events occur. > Conditionality doesn't imply 100% determinism. My view is that conditionality is sooooooooo complex, that no being that I will ever know will be able to successfully predict their next experience. At best, they will know it after it has arisen and gone. > > Best wishes, > > Alex > All the best, Alex Herman #85377 From: Sukinder Date: Tue May 6, 2008 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... sukinderpal Hi TG (and Scott), I realize that there was no response to my last post, either you missed it, ignored it or had other reasons not to respond. However I feel that I should attempt another explanation as to why I don’t agree with you on this. ........................................................ TG to Scott: I don't think you've understood my point here. If the body parts are reduced and analyzed as the four great elements, etc. Why not the same thing for houses, boats, whatever. House, Boat, TV, whatever are just words. The constituents of what those objects consist of surely must be made of the things you call "realities." Therefore, if we take an automobile engine, we can see the air elements in the intake and exhaust system, we can see the fire element in the ignition of gas, we can see the water element in the cooling system, we can see the earth elements in the engine block. Anyway, back to my point... It seems you are saying the bodily parts are not realities. Well, that defeats the argument that the Satipatthana Sutta is all about knowing realities in the present moment. Sukin: First of all, as suggested by some of us here, the Satipatthana Sutta is better seen as being descriptive rather than a prescription “to do”. With this in mind, and as I’ve pointed out to you in the past, the fact of the audience at the time being constituted of bhikkhus who were involved with various kinds of samatha practices, the ‘contemplations’ mentioned can then be seen simply as being description of what they did. Now, with the fact of “satipatthana” in mind, which is that it is reference to a particular kind of experience, namely wisdom knowing a characteristic of an ultimate reality, it is easy then to see that the mention of the various ‘concepts’ are merely incidental. The Buddha *knew* that these were what the Bhikkhus contemplated upon, and therefore in mentioning these he then reminded them of what they could in fact then “know”, namely the “dhammas” involved while engaging in those other practices. Just like when he reminded them in the same Sutta, with the mention of the various ‘daily life’ activities. With regard particularly to the ‘elements’, I think you missed the point of the Visuddhimagga passage which Scott cited. In that when it was mentioned the reduction into the elements, this was not asking us to mentally break down concepts into what in theory, it was composed of. Such kind of thinking is no different to science. The point is, and this is *the* practice ever taught, is that when ‘seeing’ what might later be conceptualized as bile (or house), “understand” that it is only ‘visible object’ which is seen. Likewise when touching, know that it is earth, fire or wind element, as and when these arise as objects of the corresponding sense consciousness. The breakdown which is ever taught as being useful is of this kind, not the kind that you want to recommend. It is hard of course, by comparison, the other one is so easy, so common. However, if there is ever going to be any understanding of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta and about conditionality, it is only by way of this ‘practice’ that this will happen. I hope your resistance is not due to the great difficulty and unlikely of it happening? ;-) I must go now. Will wait for your response to add more. Metta, Sukin #85378 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 6, 2008 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > In Fact, the Satipatthana is asking us to IMAGINE the body to be like a > bag > of rice!!! LOL Well, that's a far cry from "Ultimate Reailites." .... S: Whatever we reflect on, whatever we imagine, however we spend our day, there are ultimate realities, namas and rupas, which can be known. ... > In addition, The Satipatthana says "In this way he abides contemplating > the > body in the body internally, externally, both..." ... S: In this way or thus (with the development of satipatthana), there is living with right understanding of rupas (of the body, here)along with the other objects of satipatthana. There is the understanding that what is taken for the body are merely elements, primary and derived rupas. Metta, Sarah =========== #85379 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 6, 2008 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > "...Whatever kind of form ... feeling ... perception ... volitional > formations ... consciousness there is, whether past, future, or > present, internal or > external, gross or subtle, inferior of superior, far or near: A Bhikkhu > > inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would > appear to him > to be void, hollow, insubstantial. ... S: In other words all ultimate realities are anatta and can be known as such according to the degree of wisdom accumulated. Thus it is referring to the direct knowledge. ... >For what substance could there be > in > form?" > (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 951 - > 952) > “However one might ponder it > And carefully investigate it, > It appears but hollow and void > When one views it carefully. > Such is this continuum, > This illusion, beguiler of fools > It is taught to be a murderer; > Here no substance can be found.â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 953) ... S: Let's not let words like 'investigate', 'views', 'inspects' or 'ponders' (not strong enough as Connie would say!) lead us astray into thinking that the Buddha was teaching a path of inference and speculation. "Whatever kind of form..." - what about visible object, sound or heat now? Can they be known directly when they appear? If yes, this is the beginning of an appreciation of the Buddha's word. Metta, Sarah ========= #85380 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 6, 2008 4:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (142) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Han: How can we apply ourselves to the development of pa~n~naa? And, > what about now? Do we have pa~n~naa now? Besides, we cannot choose to > develop any particular perfection. Pa~n~naa will develop when there are > conditions! .... S: :-)) Yes!! Metta, Sarah ======== #85381 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 6, 2008 4:21 am Subject: Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... scottduncan2 Dear TG, Regarding: "...A Bhikkhu inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in form?" Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 951 - 952) "...bhikkhu passati nijjhaayati yoniso upaparikkhati, tassa ta.m passato nijjhaayato yoniso upaparikkhato rittaka~n~neva khaayati tucchaka~n~neva khaayati asaaraka~n~neva khaayati ki.m hi siyaa bhikkhave, ruupe saaro?" "However one might ponder it And carefully investigate it, It appears but hollow and void When one views it carefully. Such is this continuum, This illusion, beguiler of fools It is taught to be a murderer; Here no substance can be found." CDB, vol. 1, pg. 953) "...Yathaa yathaa na.m - nijjhaayati - yoniso upaparikkhati, Rittaka.m tucchaka.m hoti yo na.m passati yoniso... Etaadisaaya.m santaano maayaaya.m baalalaapinii, Vadhako eso akkhaato saaro ettha na vijjati." Scott: Thanks for the suttas. Since you don't comment, I can feel free to explain them to you ;-) If we just take the language in the English translation, the phrases 'it appears' or 'it would appear' suggest that these statements are in the form of similes, that is, comparisons using 'like' or 'as'. This is confirmed, I think, by the Paa.li, where one has 'yathaa yathaa na.m...'. The PTS PED gives: "Yathaa (adv.)...as, like, in relation to, after (the manner of)..." Also, considering the Paa.li more carefully, we have: 'Nijjhayati' (PTS PED: "to meditate, reflect, think"); 'Yoniso upaparikkhati' (PTS PED: parikkhati: "to look round, to inspect, investigate, examine"; yoniso: rational or wise; upa: higher; 'Passati yoniso' ("to see" - [and note] - "to recognise, realise, know: only in combn with jaanaati (pres. jaanaati passati;..." This latter is suggesting that, since this form is not used in the sutta, then this sort of 'seeing', while possibly serving as condition for the arising of pa~n~naa, is not yet 'seen' by pa~n~naa.]) But neither is it just thinking or speculating or coming up with one's own ideas about things either. I think this is why the designation 'yoniso' is used. Note especially how, in the Commentary to the simile of the plantain trunk, the volitional formations are depicted: "Note 193...Spk: As a plantain trunk (kadalikkhandha) is an assemblage of many sheaths, each with its own characteristic, so the volitional formations is an assemblage of many phenomena, each with its own characteristic." The simile shows that the moment of consciousness - citta with conascent cetasikas - is like a plantain tree in that it is assembled of many constituents (in the moment), but that, as stated in Note 192 (Spk), regarding 'akukkukajjaata.m'): There is no pith growing inside. This leads to the words 'rittaka.m tucchaka.m' - 'hollow and void'. The PTS PED gives: "Rittaka (adj.) [ritta+ka] empty, void, without reality...(=su~n~na, virahita). Usually in combn with tucchaka as a standing phrase denoting absolute emptiness & worthlessness..." Seemingly synonymous with 'su~n~na' ("empty, devoid of reality, unsubstantial, phenomenal...empty, void, useless"), these words are pointing to anatta. For example as in SN 35,85(2): "'...In what way is it said, 'Empty is the world?' 'It is, Aananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self' (su~n~nam attena va attaniyena vaa)..." Perhaps others might correct or add to the Paa.li or Commentarial material related to these sutta extracts. Sincerely, Scott. #85382 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 6, 2008 5:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 egberdina Hi KenH, 2008/5/6 kenhowardau : > > :-) Can we just say panna (past and present) is the condition for > more panna? > > Ken H If we left matters at this, we would have the recipe for a little perpetuum mobile, hanging out in the middle of nowhere. Wisdom as it's own cause. Either you got it, or you don't. Hmmmm. There are other possibilities. The Buddha says the following, in the deer park: "I will teach you, to you I will preach the doctrine. If you walk in the way I show you, you will, ere long, have penetrated to the truth, having yourselves known it and seen it face to face; and you will live in the possession of that highest goal of the holy life, for the sake of which noble youths fully give up the world and go forth into the houseless state." When everything else fails, you could always try walking in the way the wise are showing you. Cheers Herman #85383 From: "connie" Date: Tue May 6, 2008 6:42 am Subject: Perfections Corner (144) nichiconn Dear Friends, ch4, The Perfection of Wisdom, continues: The Commentary to the "Conduct of Yuda~njaya" explains about the beginning of pa~n~naa in that life of the Bodhisatta. We read: "By offering mahaa-daana before he retired from the world and by his giving up of the kingdom he fulfilled the perfection of giving. By his restraint in action and speech he fulfilled the perfection of siila. By his going forth from worldly life and by his attainment of jhaana he fulfilled the perfection of renunciation. In that life he began to develop pa~n~naa by wise consideration of impermanence so that eventually the higher powers (abhi~n~naas) could be attained; he developed pa~n~naa which could distinguish the dhammas that were beneficial from those that were not beneficial for the development of generosity and so on. In that way he fulfilled the perfection of pa~n~naa. By energy for the accomplishment of what was beneficial in all his undertakings he fulfilled the perfection of energy. By patience associated with pa~n~naa (~naa.na khanti) and by endurance (adhivasana khanti) he fulfilled the perfection of patience. By not speaking wrongly, not deviating from what he had promised, he fulfilled the perfection of truthfulness. By his unshakable determination in all that he undertook and observed, he fulfilled the perfection of determination. By the power of the divine abiding of loving-kindness, thinking only of the benefit of all beings, he fulfilled the perfection of loving-kindness. By his evenmindedness towards beings' contrarious behaviour, and by the divine abiding of equanimity, he fulfilled the perfection of equanimity. These are the ways by which he fulfilled the ten perfections." ..to be continued, connie #85384 From: "connie" Date: Tue May 6, 2008 6:47 am Subject: Vism.XVII,256 Vism.XVII,257 nichiconn 648. Saatthatoti yathaa ca bhavaniddese, tatheva kaama.m sa"nkhaaraniddesepi pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaraadayova vuttaa, eva.m santepi purime atiitakammavasena idha pa.tisandhiyaa paccayattaa, ime paccuppannakammavasena aayati.m pa.tisandhiyaa paccayattaati punavacana.m saatthakameva, pubbe vaa "tattha katamo pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaro? Kusalaa cetanaa kaamaavacaraa"ti (vibha. 226) evamaadinaa nayena cetanaava sa"nkhaaraati vuttaa. Idha pana "sabbampi bhavagaamikamman"ti (vibha. 234) vacanato cetanaasampayuttaapi. Pubbe ca vi~n~naa.napaccayameva kamma.m "sa"nkhaaraa"ti vutta.m. Idaani asa~n~naabhavanibbattakampi. Ki.m vaa bahunaa, "avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraa"ti ettha pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaraadayova kusalaakusalaa dhammaa vuttaa. "Upaadaanapaccayaa bhavo"ti idha pana upapattibhavassaapi sa"ngahitattaa kusalaakusalaabyaakataa dhammaa vuttaa. Tasmaa sabbathaapi saatthakamevida.m punavacananti evamettha saatthatopi vi~n~naatabbo vinicchayo. PPn ch.xvii, 256. 3. As to purpose: although formations of merit, etc., are of course dealt with in the same way in the description of becoming and in the description of formations (see Vbh.135 and 137), nevertheless the repetition has a purpose. For in the former case it was because it was a condition, as past kamma, for rebirth-linking here [in this becoming], while in the latter case it is because it is a condition, as present kamma, for rebirth-linking in the future [becoming]. Or alternatively, in the former instance, in the passage beginning 'Herein, what is the formation of merit? It is profitable volition of the sense sphere' (Vbh.135), it was only volitions that were called formations'; but here, with the words 'All kamma that leads to becoming' (Vbh.137), the states associated with the volition are also included. And in the former instance it was only such kamma as is a condition for consciousness that was called 'formations'; but now also that which generates non-percipi- 257. ent becoming is included. But why so many words? In the clause 'With ignorance as condition there are formations' only profitable and unprofitable states are expressed as the formation of merit, etc.; but in the clause 'With clinging as condition, becoming' profitable and unprofitable and also functional states are expressed because of the inclusion of rebirth-process becoming. So this repetition has a purpose in each case. This is how the exposition should be known 'as to purpose here'. PoP p.687-8: "By usefulness": - although the preparations for merit and so on have been mentioned in the exposition of the activities, just as in the exposition of becoming, there is advantage in the repetition, because the activities of the previous exposition are the causes of rebirth here, by way of past karma, and because the activities of the present exposition are causes of rebirth in the future by way of present karma. Or, in the previous exposition, volition has been said to be the activities in this way: "What therein is the preparation for merit? Moral volition of the realm of sense." {Vibha"nga, p.135.} But here states associated with volition as well are so described, from the expression "And all karma leading to becoming" {above, p.686}. And previously it has been said that the activities are karma which is the cause of consciousness; now they are described as karma which produces becoming of non-perception. For that matter what is the use of making many statements? In "conditioned by ignorance, activities come to pass" the moral and immoral states such as the preparations for merit and so on have already been mentioned. Here, in "Conditioned by grasping, becoming comes to pass," the moral, immoral and indeterminate states are mentioned owing to the inclusion of rebirth-becoming. Therefore everywhere the repetition serves its purpose. Thus by way of "usefulness" also is the conclusion to be understood. #85385 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 6, 2008 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (143) nilovg Dear Han and Herman, Op 6-mei-2008, om 1:19 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > We should not think: now I must have a sense of urgency, it is not > a matter of thinking, and such thinking is likely to be motivated > by clinging to self. When there are conditions for the arising of > sati and it is aware of a dhamma appearing now, there is samvega > already. Sati does not let pass an opportunity for awareness, that > is its nature. ------ > > Han: Is some level of pa~n~naa not necessary for the arising of > samvega? ------ N: The Buddha exhorted people not to delay kusala and the development of satipatthana. Remember the Bhaddekaratta sutta: And sati does not let pass an opportunity to be aware as I wrote above. The quoted sutta is about insight and so are many other suttas, most of them. Without pa~n~naa: when not delaying dana when there is an opportunity, realising that the person one wants to give to may disappear or die, or that the giver may die. Kusala citta without pa~n~naa is accompanied by sati that does not waste the opportunity for kusala, does not delay it, but with pa~n~naa kusala is of a higher degree, it can be a perfection. ---------- Herman: But are you saying that the conditioned arising of the thought " I must have a sense of urgency" cannot be wholesome, or a condition for future wholesomeness? ------- N: The thinking can be kusala and then lead to direct awareness and understanding. But it may also happen that one merely thinks about a sense of urgency and that there is no follow up. Nina. #85386 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 6, 2008 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... nilovg Dear Scott, Op 6-mei-2008, om 13:21 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > 'Yoniso upaparikkhati' (PTS PED: parikkhati: "to look round, to > inspect, investigate, examine"; yoniso: rational or wise; upa: higher; ------- N: Your Pali analysis is good. Perhaps I would like to add to upa: I think that upa can also be an intensitive. To contemplate or investigate thoroughly with wise attention. See PED 4. Nina. #85387 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 6, 2008 5:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 5/6/2008 4:56:44 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi TG, --- _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) wrote: > In Fact, the Satipatthana is asking us to IMAGINE the body to be like a > bag > of rice!!! LOL Well, that's a far cry from "Ultimate Reailites." .... S: Whatever we reflect on, whatever we imagine, however we spend our day, there are ultimate realities, namas and rupas, which can be known. .................................................................... TG: And the Buddha says this where? That's right...no where. .................................................................... ... > In addition, The Satipatthana says "In this way he abides contemplating > the > body in the body internally, externally, both..." ... S: In this way or thus (with the development of satipatthana)S: In this living with right understanding of rupas (of the body, here)along with the other objects of satipatthana. There is the understanding that what is taken for the body are merely elements, primary and derived rupas. ................................................................. TG: This is wrong. No matter how we consider phenomena, whether as a whole unit of "body," or elements and sub-elements of that unit, they both (all) need to be known as conditioned, impermanent, nonself, empty, void, hollow, coreless, and insubstantial. Trading the delusion of "selves" for the delusion of "ultimate realities" is one really bad trade IMO. Probably a quantum leap backwards due to a "false sense of correctness" and the intricacy of the newer delusion. I feel we're getting closer on this Sarah. ;-) TG OUT #85388 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 6, 2008 9:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > S: Whatever we reflect on, whatever we imagine, however we spend our > day, > there are ultimate realities, namas and rupas, which can be known. > > .................................................................... > > TG: And the Buddha says this where? .... S: Throughout the Tipitaka. Take the sutta you quoted - it is about these same ultimate realities, namas and rupas to be known: >TG: "...Whatever kind of form ... feeling ... perception ... volitional > formations ... consciousness there is, whether past, future, or > present, internal or > external, gross or subtle, inferior of superior, far or near: A Bhikkhu > > inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would > appear to him > to be void, hollow, insubstantial. ... >S: In other words all ultimate realities are anatta and can be known as such according to the degree of wisdom accumulated. Thus it is referring to the direct knowledge. ... Metta, Sarah p.s I'll also look forward to your response to Sukin's helpful message (imho, of course) which I hadn't read when I wrote mine. ======== #85389 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 6, 2008 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 5/6/2008 5:04:12 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi TG, --- _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) wrote: > "...Whatever kind of form ... feeling ... perception ... volitional > formations ... consciousness there is, whether past, future, or > present, internal or > external, gross or subtle, inferior of superior, far or near: A Bhikkhu > > inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would > appear to him > to be void, hollow, insubstantial. ... S: In other words all ultimate realities are anatta and can be known as such according to the degree of wisdom accumulated. Thus it is referring to the direct knowledge. ......................................................... TG: Not "other words." These words. Your statement above is so vague that it leaves the door open to any interpretation one wishes to fill in. Its a clever way to elicit an agreement, which then gets used as a means of trying to establish the legitimacy of your "ultimate reality" views. Naughty naughty. ;-) Of course I realize this isn't intentional. Cough cough cough... excuse me. Hey, after 5 years of experience, I'm finally catching on. LOL .............................................................................. ... >For what substance could there be > in > form?" > (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 951 - > 952) > “However one might ponder it > And carefully investigate it, > It appears but hollow and void > When one views it carefully. > Such is this continuum, > This illusion, beguiler of fools > It is taught to be a murderer; > Here no substance can be found.â€Â? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 953) ... S: Let's not let words like 'investigate'S: Let's not let words like 'ponders' (not strong enough as Connie would say!) lead us astray into thinking that the Buddha was teaching a path of inference and speculation. ............................................................ TG: You don't want to nullify the words the Buddha used do you? I think he used to word "investigate" because he wanted elements, aggregates, all phenomena "investigated." I think he used the word "views" because he wanted them "viewed" correctly. I think he used the word "inspects" because he wanted a "close inspection" of the conditional nature of phenomena. I think he used the word "pondered" because he wanted it well considered. Insight is arrived at through these means. This is a foundation. A very very necessary foundation. Conceptual reasoning, thinking, pondering, investigating, all crucially important. We can't just go off talking about directly experiencing "ultimate realities" and think we have made progress in understanding -- nonself, for example. It doesn't mean a thing. "A Path" of inference or speculation? Who in this group has EVER suggested that the "Buddha was teaching a Path of inference and speculation"? If not, what purpose is the warning? (Rhetorical question) The Buddha's teaching utilize the minds abilities in whatever way they can to lead it to detachment from conditioned phenomena... not indulging in some so-called "ultimate realities," but detachment therefrom. Thinking and investigating...is a huge part of that. ................................................................. "Whatever kind of form..." - what about visible object, sound or heat now? Can they be known directly when they appear? If yes, this is the beginning of an appreciation of the Buddha's word. ............................................................................. TG: "Visible object" is conditioned, impermanent, afflicted (with impermanence), and nonself. "Sound" is conditioned, impermanent, afflicted (with impermanence), and nonself. "Heat" is conditioned, impermanent, afflicted (with impermanence), and nonself. Not only that... but they're all moving and tottering, wearing away and falling apart, in relation to their supporting conditions that are also moving and tottering, wearing away and falling apart. (Gotta love that Buddha!) It is when we begin to understand the two paragraphs above that we can begin an appreciation of the Buddha's words...his actual words. (It seems like you want to hide from some of his words while I want them highlighted. Just a one-sided observation.) :-/ I still feel like we're coming closer on this Sarah. I feel we've both compromised a lot. ;-) TG OUT #85390 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 6, 2008 10:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... truth_aerator Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi TG, > > --- TGrand458@... wrote: > > S: Whatever we reflect on, whatever we imagine, however we spend our > > day, > > there are ultimate realities, namas and rupas, which can be known. > > > > .................................................................... > > > > TG: And the Buddha says this where? > .... > S: Throughout the Tipitaka. Take the sutta you quoted - it is about these same ultimate realities, namas and rupas to be known: > Lets take one of the earliest suttas: The Fire Sermon. The sutta using very graphic similies for everything being on fire, basically burning with fevers of greed/anger/delusion. It ends with: "He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: He grows disenchanted with that too. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.than.html Interestingly the Anapanasati training instructions end with similiar practical results: "[14] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on dispassion,2 and to breathe out focusing on dispassion. [15] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation. [16] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment. + "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (4 satipatthanas) to completion. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.013.than.html > >TG: "...Whatever kind of form ... feeling ... perception ... volitional > > formations ... consciousness there is, whether past, future, or > > present, internal or > > external, gross or subtle, inferior of superior, far or near: A Bhikkhu > > > > inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would > > appear to him > > to be void, hollow, insubstantial. > ... > >S: In other words all ultimate realities are anatta and can be known as > such according to the degree of wisdom accumulated. >>>> How can anatta be ultimate reality? It may be ultimate, but not reality. It is ABSENCE of any super substance ( absence of reality of atta). Another question: And how does one accumulate wisdom? Furthermore. If an object is unreal because it is made of smaller parts, then what about parts themselves? In order for them to be non- divisible and final, they would have to be zero (in temporal/spatial dimension). In other words If any citta last >0 time units, or rupa is >0 units long or heavy - why are they final and irreducible agents? What makes up the part of a single citta? What makes up the part of a single unit of rupa? etc etc. IMHO, the ONLY ultimate reality is NIBBANA since it is not further reducible and is unconditioned. To put citta, cetasika and rupa on the SAME plane as Nibbana is wrong. Best wishes, Alex #85391 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 6, 2008 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 5/6/2008 10:59:56 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: --- _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) wrote: > S: Whatever we reflect on, whatever we imagine, however we spend our > day, > there are ultimate realities, namas and rupas, which can be known. > > ............ .... .... .... .... .... .... > > TG: And the Buddha says this where? .... S: Throughout the Tipitaka. Take the sutta you quoted - it is about these same ultimate realities, namas and rupas to be known: ................................................... TG: I think you're confusing your own interpretation and speculation for the words of the Buddha. You say the Buddha taught about Ultimate Realties throughout the Suttas? Is there even one instance where he used the term "ultimate realities?" ... or told us that his teachings were about -- "knowing ultimate realities with their own characteristics"? I'll look forward to seeing a Sutta quote on that. Not your interpretation, but a real straightforward quote. After all, your the one always talking about "directly knowing." So let's have some "direct seeing of the Buddha discussing "Ultimate Realites" using the term. Hey, if you can back up what your saying with direct quotes, I'll probably come over to your side....the dark side. LOL TG OUT #85392 From: "Alex" Date: Tue May 6, 2008 11:34 am Subject: Why all the long lists in the Abhidhamma? truth_aerator Hello all, One of the things is that Abhidhamma pitaka is very long, detailed (too much for some), and so on. It begs the question: What is the use of all the detail other than to take up ones time that can be spent elsewhere (doing Dana, Sila, Samadhi, etc)? If one believe in Anatta of ALL components of "reality" and no Atta outside, then what is the PRACTICAL use of listing 89/121 cittas, dozens of cetasikas, 24 conditioned relations and 10K (or how many?) of pages? I understand that if some cittas, cetasikas, rupas, or conditioned relations were atta and some anatta - then there would be some justification for making a detailed list "this is anatta, this is atta". But this doesn't apply here. And of course a typical skeptical argument: How do we know that ALL that is said in AP is true? Remember the famous or infamous Kalama sutta (AN3.65) that makes an appeal to pragmatic results (and some form of pascal's wager) ? Best wishes, Alex #85393 From: han tun Date: Tue May 6, 2008 5:35 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (143) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. > > > > Text: When right understanding with a sense of urgency arises we should not let it pass by without paying attention to it. We should reflect on the conditions for this sense of urgency so that it can arise more often. The thought of death and impermanence can be a condition for further developing the perfections. > > > Nina: We should not think: now I must have a sense of urgency, it is not a matter of thinking, and such thinking is likely to be motivated by clinging to self. When there are conditions for the arising of sati and it is aware of a dhamma appearing now, there is samvega already. Sati does not let pass an opportunity for awareness, that is its nature. > > Han: Is some level of pa~n~naa not necessary for the arising of samvega? > Nina: The Buddha exhorted people not to delay kusala and the development of satipatthana. Remember the Bhaddekaratta sutta: And sati does not let pass an opportunity to be aware as I wrote above. The quoted sutta is about insight and so are many other suttas, most of them. Without pa~n~naa: when not delaying dana when there is an opportunity, realising that the person one wants to give to may disappear or die, or that the giver may die. Kusala citta without pa~n~naa is accompanied by sati that does not waste the opportunity for kusala, does not delay it, but with pa~n~naa kusala is of a higher degree, it can be a perfection. ------------------------------ Han: I was not talking about delaying kusala and the development of satipatthana. I was only asking whether some level of pa~n~naa is necessary or not for the arising of samvega? I was expecting a yes or no answer. But I will have to do with your comment: From this, I draw the following conclusions. If my conclusions are wrong, please correct me. (1) When there are conditions for the arising of sati and it is aware of a dhamma appearing now, there is samvega already. It may or may not be accompanied by pa~n~naa. (2) The samvega can arise without pa~n~naa because the sati does not let pass an opportunity to be aware. (3) But samvega with pa~n~naa is of a higher degree, it can lead to satipatthaana and insight. Respectfully, Han #85394 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 6, 2008 4:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... egberdina Hi Sarah, 2008/5/6 sarah abbott : > Hi TG, > > .... > S: Whatever we reflect on, whatever we imagine, however we spend our day, > there are ultimate realities, namas and rupas, which can be known. > ... I hope you don't mind if I add my voice to other requests for clarification. What is the function of the word "ultimate" in the above? It seems to me that there are no degrees of reality. Cheers Herman #85395 From: "Egbert" Date: Tue May 6, 2008 6:05 pm Subject: Re: Why all the long lists in the Abhidhamma? egberdina Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hello all, > > One of the things is that Abhidhamma pitaka is very long, detailed > (too much for some), and so on. It begs the question: What is the use > of all the detail other than to take up ones time that can be spent > elsewhere (doing Dana, Sila, Samadhi, etc)? It is my view that much of the Abhidhamma proper is very valuable as a mindmap for the serious student of reality, who is typically a meditator. (I couldn't think of any greater folly than to study a map as an end in itself). However, some books of the Abhidhamma, such as the Dhatukatha, Puggalapannatti, Kathavatthu and Yamaka are more academic in nature. Also, it has become customary over time to represent Abhidhamma commentary as Abhidhamma, which is a very misleading practise, and cause for an unnecessary blemish on the reputation of the Abhidhamma proper. The following quote from B. Bodhi's introduction to the BPS' Abhidhammata Sangaha, makes clear to what extent this practise has come to corrupt Theravadan thought as to what is Abhidhamma. "......we might briefly note a few of the Abhidhammic conceptions that are characteristic of the Commentaries but either unknown or recessive in the Abhidhamma Pitaka itself. One is the detailed account of the cognitive process (cittavithi). While this conception seems to be tacitly recognized in the canonical books, it now comes to be drawn out for use as an explanatory tool in its own right. The functions of the cittas, the different types of consciousness, are specified, and in time the cittas themselves come to be designated by way of their functions. The term khana, "moment," replaces the canonical samaya, "occasion," as the basic unit for delimiting the occurrence of events, and the duration of a material phenomenon is determined to be seventeen moments of mental phenomena. The division of a moment into three sub-moments — arising, presence, and dissolution — also seems to be new to the Commentaries. The organization of material phenomena into groups (kalapa), though implied by the distinction between the primary elements of matter and derived matter, is first spelled out in the Commentaries, as is the specification of the heart-base (hadayavatthu) as the material basis for mind element and mind-consciousness element. The Commentaries introduce many (though not all) of the categories for classifying kamma, and work out the detailed correlations between kamma and its results. They also close off the total number of mental factors (cetasika). The phrase in the Dhammasangani, "or whatever other (unmentioned) conditionally arisen immaterial phenomena there are on that occasion," apparently envisages an open-ended universe of mental factors, which the Commentaries delimit by specifying the "or-whatever states" (yevapanaka dhamma). Again, the Commentaries consummate the dhamma theory by supplying the formal definition of dhammas as "things which bear their own intrinsic nature" (attano sabhavam dharenti ti dhamma). The task of defining specific dhammas is finally rounded off by the extensive employment of the fourfold defining device of characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause, a device derived from a pair of old exegetical texts, the Petakopadesa and the Nettipakarana." In summary, the practical use of some of the Abhidhamma is in sitting and finding it to be so, or not so. The rest of it is fodder for and by academics. (Perhaps a greater folly than the one I mentioned before, is to draft a map without surveying the territory :-)) Cheers Herman #85396 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 6, 2008 7:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply: N: "...I think that upa can also be an intensitive. To contemplate or investigate thoroughly with wise attention. See PED 4." Scott: I see this. This would be due to the presence of manasikaara, I guess. What is it that gives this mental factor the quality of 'yoniso'? Sincerely, Scott. #85397 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 6, 2008 4:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... TGrand458@... Hi Sukin I have to apologize for not responding to your prior post. Not only did I not miss it, I spent nearly 3 hours responding to it and then gave up. LOL In fact, I did two different attempts with completely different approaches. At first I was responding question for question and then realized I was just running in circles answering "surface features" that were just going to end up where I was with Jon anyway. It boils down to some fundamental things regarding conditionality and what conditionality means in terms of phenomena... 1) Conditioned phenomena could never be "ultimate." Conditioned phenomena are relative. 2) Conditioned phenomena could never be "own" Conditioned phenomena are completely dependent. 3) Conditioned phenomena are never stable, not even for a billion billion billion billion billion billionths of a second....squared. Conditioned phenomena are "moving and tottering, wearing away and falling apart." 4) The teaching on "elements, aggregates, etc." is NOT done for the purpose of seeing the elements as "independent (ultimate) realities." The teaching on "elements, aggregates, etc." IS done for the purpose of breaking down phenomena in such a way as to more easily "see" conditionality and causal principles. I.E., for purposes of analysis. Perhaps this will clarify my position. TG #85398 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue May 6, 2008 4:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... TGrand458@... Hi Sukin Personally, I practice breaking down phenomena into elements all the time. Love it! The difference is, I don't break them down to see them as "ultimate realities." I break them down to "see" how they are working. And they are working like the Buddha taught them to be working...conditionally, impermanently, afflictedly (with impermanence, and more), and selflessly. They are conditionally relative, and void, empty, and coreless of anything that could be ascribed as being "there own." I hope two posts within 15 minutes makes up for my prior dereliction of duty. ;-) TG In a message dated 5/6/2008 3:55:04 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: With regard particularly to the ‘elements’, I think you missed the point of the Visuddhimagga passage which Scott cited. In that when it was mentioned the reduction into the elements, this was not asking us to mentally break down concepts into what in theory, it was composed of. Such kind of thinking is no different to science. The point is, and this is *the* practice ever taught, is that when ‘seeing’ what might later be conceptualized as bile (or house), “understandâ€? that it is only ‘visible object’ which is seen. Likewise when touching, know that it is earth, fire or wind element, as and when these arise as objects of the corresponding sense consciousness. The breakdown which is ever taught as being useful is of this kind, not the kind that you want to recommend. It is hard of course, by comparison, the other one is so easy, so common. However, if there is ever going to be any understanding of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta and about conditionality, it is only by way of this ‘practice’ that this will happen. I hope your resistance is not due to the great difficulty and unlikely of it happening? ;-) I must go now. Will wait for your response to add more. Metta, Sukin #85399 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 6, 2008 9:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are the 32 body parts considered "ultimate realities" in your v... sarahprocter... Hi Herman & all, Welcome back! --- Herman Hofman wrote: > > S: Whatever we reflect on, whatever we imagine, however we spend our > day, > > there are ultimate realities, namas and rupas, which can be known. > > ... > > I hope you don't mind if I add my voice to other requests for > clarification. What is the function of the word "ultimate" in the > above? It seems to me that there are no degrees of reality. ... S: I agree, realities are realities. I was following TG's lead here. My comment was in response to his: >TG: In Fact, the Satipatthana is asking us to IMAGINE the body to be like a bag > of rice!!! LOL Well, that's a far cry from "Ultimate Reailites." .... S: Paramattha (ultimate) is used to make it clear that it is not conventional (sammuti)realities that are being referred to. As you know, people and computers can be said to be conventional realities, but they are concepts (pannatti) and do not have validity in an ultimate sense. They are mentally constructed unlike the paramattha dhammas (highest/final dhammas). The paramattha dhammas can only be known through the development of wisdom, through satipatthana. Hence it is said that "paramattha belongs to the domain of ultimate or supreme knowledge. (paramassa uttamassa ¬naa.nassa attho gocaro, Vibhv.)" as quoted in CMA, Ch 1, where there is more helpful detail in the guide to the first section. Of course, the understanding of these dhammas is not the repeating of the terms and labels, but the getting to know the characteristics of seeing, thinking, annoyance, visible object, hardness or whatever appears now. Metta, Sarah p.s I know you've been through a lot as a parent. I just got home from sitting in on the very final stage of the Appeal of a highly publicised murder case (which you may have read about last summer, the 'Milk Shake Murder', in which an American wife killed her extremely wealthy American banker husband and then hid the body. The jury found her guilty and she was given a life sentence). As it happens, we were invited to attend the last stage of the Appeal by our friend, her lawyer and a fellow surfer! No judgement given, but I found myself consoling the mother of the defendant afterwards. She was the only relative present. Not something one would wish any parent to go through (extremely gruesome testimony and the defendant herself looked extremely weak and fragile). I felt a little shaken myself. These are all concepts, conceptual realities which I'm thinking about as I write to you. In truth, in (ultimate) reality, there were only then and are only now the various namas and rupas, moments of seeing, hearing, thinking, compassion and aversion and so on. None belonging to anyone. ========