#89000 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta kenhowardau Hi Sukin, Howard, Herman and Jon, Thanks for your discussion of this extraordinary and difficult to understand sutta. (Aren't they all?) If I am following correctly, Ananda said to the Bhikkhunni something along the lines of, "Motivated by craving [for arahantship] and conceited [with the thought of being an arahant] I sought wise companionship and heard the true Dhamma. Therefore, in my case, those forms of misconduct turned out to be [natural decisive support] condition for bhavana. Sexual misconduct, however, can never be a condition for bhavana." That would seem reasonable to me. As we all agree, we shouldn't *worry* that our motives for listening to, and discussing, the Dhamma may include craving and conceit. We shouldn't wait before opening a Dhamma book, or before posting a message to DSG, until we can be *sure* there is no craving for results or rewards. Otherwise we would be waiting forever. Being uninstructed worldlings, we simply don't know our own motives that well. If, however, our akusala motives amounted to akusala kammapatha (breach of the precepts) then we *would* know that akusala was involved and, therefore, we should not follow those inclinations. If, for example, we had to kill someone in order to get the last taxi to a discussion meeting we would do better (needless to say) not to attend the meeting at all. Even more obviously, if our akusala motives were directed, not at hearing, discussing and applying the Dhamma, but at having illicit sex, or at performing anti-Dhamma rituals (and the like), then by no means should they be acted upon. By no means could they become conditions for bhavana. Hmm, now that I have spelt it out, my interpretation does seem a bit rough-and-ready. If it completely misses the mark please say so. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinder wrote: > > > Hi Howard, (Herman and Jon), > > Sorry for the delay in responding. > > ======================== > Sukin: > > > Moreover, do you not see a situation in which kusala at first arising > > very little but accumulating more to then increase in frequency? Also > > that a sense of urgency in the beginning to be invariably followed by > > craving, #89001 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [Focussing on Anything is Wrong?]... concentration.. indriyabala Hi Connie (and Mike), - This is the passage from MN 149 that was much discussed earlier today. > "For him "uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining *focused* > on their drawbacks" the five clinging-aggregates head toward future > diminution" vs "Not attached, unyoked and not deluded he abides seeing > the danger and does not accumulate in the five holding masses for the > future." > c: yep, that's the one. I assume you've seen #88974 by now so I'll just say thanks for asking because I'm glad to see I'm not the only who had a problem with more than just a couple of words in trying to match the english versions! T: Have you got a mental block possibly because of the word "remaining focused" that implies concentration and you are uncomfortable with jhana, or because you cannot find the Pali in the text to match it? Or, anything else? But you don't have to answer these questions. ;-) Tep === #89002 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:18 pm Subject: Re: Scholasticism, .. Focussing on Anything is Wrong?... kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Alex (and Scott and KenH), - > > I say the Venerable Thanissaro Bhikkhu's choice to minimally depend > on the ancient commentaries should not be a fair and adequate reason > for Scott to disregard his commentaries. But Scott disagrees. > > > Scott: Yes, I did have the impression that he was advancing his own > > commentaries. I think that I'll continue to disregard the > Venerable's commentaries and translations and stick to the Ancient > Commentaries and alternate translations, for reasons both fair and > adequate. > > > > Alex: Can you please explain why ancient commentaries are better than > Ven. TB's? > > T: Simple question ! Because they are ancient, that's why. ;-) > > Hi Tep and Alex, I find your comments extraordinary. Hasn't DSG recently held a thorough discussion of Ven Thanissaro's unorthodox teachings? Hasn't it been explained by people of various inclinations (including the meditators the non-meditators and the undecided) that Ven. T believes in an eternal soul? As I recall, we were referred to an article written by an Australian monk who knew Ven T personally and who explained how Ven T more or less woke up one morning with the brilliant idea "the Buddha did not teach no-self, he taught a not- self strategy!" and then set about publishing (on ATI) any suttas that could possibly be construed as supporting this extraordinary heterodoxy. After that discussion, Alex, as I recall, recanted his devotion to Ven T and agreed with everyone else that anatta did indeed mean no- self. But how quickly we forget! The doubts about anatta, and the unquestioning support for Ven. T inevitably resurface. Just yesterday Alex posted the following message: -------- > Hello all, in MN#2 the Buddha has stated that: "Am I not?" is a wrong reflection and that wise attention leading to stream is: "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html Does Abhidhamma deals with 4NT, if so, exactly how? Interestingly, no direct mention of "understanding nama-rupa", but there is mention of understanding 4NT. Any comments? Best wishes, Alex -------------- My comment, if I had bothered to give one, would have been this was the classic teaching method of Ven T. First, quote the Buddha as saying that "I do not exist" was wrong view, but do not explain the context in which the Buddha was speaking. (Every other commentator does explain that context.) Then quote a carefully selected sutta in which the word 'stress' is inserted as a translation of 'dukkha.' This gives the impression that the Buddha's teaching was about sparing the meditator from stressful thoughts (about his own existence or non-existence) and not about understanding conditioned dhammas. (!) Why, Tep and Alex, do you continue to be such staunch supporters of Ven T? Why do you ridicule the merest suggestion that his sutta- translations might not always be the best? Ken H #89003 From: "connie" Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:22 pm Subject: Re: [Focussing on Anything is Wrong?]... concentration.. nichiconn Dear Tep, T: Have you got a mental block possibly because of the word "remaining focused" that implies concentration and you are uncomfortable with jhana, or because you cannot find the Pali in the text to match it? Or, anything else? But you don't have to answer these questions. ;-) c: If this is your way of asking my opinion about TB's version, then yes, it's misleading, and yes, as you've suggested, he surely must have known what he was doing. However, I believe I said my problem was recognizing the version at http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/149-mahasa\ layatanika-e.html. As Sarah mentioned when giving the link, it doesn't even use the phrase 'remaining focused'. As far as whether I'm uncomfortable with jhaana or not, thank you for your concern, but please don't let it be a problem for you either way. peace, connie #89004 From: "connie" Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:32 pm Subject: Re: [Focussing on Anything is Wrong?]... concentration.. nichiconn Dear Tep, Pardon my speaking in haste in my irritation. Yes, I did earlier say I had problems with TB's version as well as the other one. peace, connie #89005 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:10 pm Subject: Re: Scholasticism, .. Focussing on Anything is Wrong?... scottduncan2 Dear Alex, A: "Can you please explain why ancient commentaries are better than Ven. TB's?" Alex, I can no more explain anything than you can. Essentially I 'choose' to learn from the ancient commentators because I dig them and I think it most likely that they form a link and provide a perspective which comes as close as possible to the way in which the Dhamma wound up being interpreted as far back can be reckoned. I figure that beats anyone going today. It's an Inclination. I'm chosen by the Theravadin Commentarial Tradition. I simply dig it, whereas you don't. End of story. I don't have a clue myself. I don't get it right very often, especially when thinking on my own. I definitely don't trust my own interpretations. And I'm just self-centred enough, therefore, to definitely not trust in any other modern-day 'commentator', figuring them to be equally in the dark. Most people, just as self-centred as I, think they have it right, and prefer to make their own commentaries the one's they cherish and love to share. I'm just not interested. I don't care what the Modern Innovators have to say. I'm not interested in comparing the Dhamma to science or so-called modern thinking. I'm not interested in making up my own theories about the Dhamma. I'm not interested in reading other's modern theories about the Dhamma. I like the Ancient Commentators because I do. I'll leave it at this and won't be inclined to entertain any further discussion on this one. Thanks, Alex. Sincerely, Scott. #89006 From: "rinzeee" Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:27 pm Subject: Re: An Observation of This Panel rinzeee --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Rinze, - > > I am interested in your following remark : > > "we should shed all views, ie stop thinking, when we > confront reality, in our own practices." Here I refer to 'stop thinking' in a looser sense. Of course when one confronts reality, thoughts are bound to arise, connected with what was just 'seen'. This is wisdom or Panna. But one should not continue to 'think'. Samatha and Vipassana should be evenly balanced, easier said than done! > > How do thinking and thought relate to all views? In an ultimate sense there are just 4 things, (1) Consciousness, (2) Mental States, (3) Matter and (4) Nibbana. Apart from Nibbana, everything else is conceived in terms of consciousness, mental states and matter, ie, vinnana, nama and rupa. Views are one of these things that are conceived. Thinking or thought is a mental process. Refer Abhidhamma. Fundamentally, there are three modes of determining things, (1) Cittasankhara, that's Perception & Feeling. One perceives, either rightly or wrongly, and expresses them through, (2) Vacisankhara, Vitakka & Vicara, speech or (3) Kayasankara, In & Out breathing, bodily expressions. They correspond to the three modes of action, (1) Thought, (2) Word and (3) Deed. Refer Culavedalla Sutta in MN. The views that we express fall into one of these three modes of actions. The root cause is Perception which leads to Thinking. That is how thinking and thought relate to all views. > How do you stop thinking and, when you can, for how long? One effectively stops thinking in the state of Nibbana, cessation of perception and feeling. The state prior to Nibbana is a state of neither perception nor non-perception. Perception leads to thinking like I said before. Refer Mulapariyaya Sutta in MN. It is said that when one attains a state of Nirodha Samapatti, one can remain at most 7 days without `thinking', here too one has to determine the period prior to attainment of Nirodha Samapatti. > Can self views be shed simply by not thinking? No. Shedding self views is the most difficult thing to attain. But once this is done, the rest is a matter of 7 lifetimes, which is next to nothing in comparison to Sansara! > Do arahants not think at all? They do. But their thoughts doesn't constitute Kamma. They do not think in terms of mine, I am or myself (craving, conceit or views), since they have uprooted ignorance. > Thank you for the interesting post. > > > Tep > === > May all be Happy Rinze #89007 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiitisutta Corner: DN 33 Twos (12-16), Co, part 3. nilovg Dear friends, Sangiitisutta Corner: DN 33 Twos (12-16), Co, part 3. sutta: DN 33.1.9(15) 'Gentle speech and courtesy’ (Saakhalya~nca pa.tisanthaaro ca.) As to gentle speech, saakhalya, the Co refers to the dha..sa. 1343 (1350, transl U Kyaw Khine): The Co. adds that this is a polite and gentle nature (sammodakamuduka- bhaavo). ---------- Co: Saakhalyanti ‘‘tattha katama.m saakhalya.m? Yaa saa vaacaa a.n.dakaa kakkasaa paraka.tukaa paraabhisajjanii kodhasaamantaa asamaadhisa.mvattanikaa, tathaaruupi.m vaaca.m pahaaya yaa saa vaacaa ne.laa ka.n.nasukhaa pemaniiyaa hadaya"ngamaa porii bahujanakantaa bahujanamanaapaa, tathaaruupi.m vaaca.m bhaasitaa hoti. Yaa tattha sa.nhavaacataa sakhilavaacataa apharusavaacataa. Ida.m vuccati saakhalya’’nti (dha. sa. 1343) eva.m vutto sammodakamudukabhaavo. ------------- N: The Atthasaalinii (Suttanta Couplets) states that ‘when a man persists in not extirpating harsh speech, even his gentle words, albeit they occur at intervals, are reckoned harsh...’ Even if one at times has gentle speech, it can be reckoned as harsh if one does not know the source of speech. One should know the source of speech: the citta. If one does not develop right understanding one will be ignorant of the citta that motivates speech and take nama and rupa for self, including speech intimation. Right understanding conditions speech that is right. ---------- As to courtesy, pa.tisanthaaro, the Co refers to the dha.sa. Pali, 1344, stating that there is a twofold courtesy: worldly courtesy (or ‘carnal’, amiisa) and spiritual courtesy which is dhamma courtesy. It explains that this is like closing a gap that may exist between oneself and others owing to the need in others that is not getting satisfied. This is with regard to bodily needs and with regard to Dhamma. N: We do not want a gap, a separation, between ourselves and others and if others need material things or are in need of Dhamma, we do our best to help. --------- The Atthasaalinii explains how a bhikkhu should receive a guest and attend to his bodily needs, such as washing his feet, giving him medicine etc. In the evening he should question him on points of Dhamma that are within his capacities. “Should the guest be able to answer, well and good; if not, he himself should give the reply. Thus in one part spiritual courtesy is shown.” The Co states that giving respectfully an explanation of the commentary to the texts is spiritual courtesy. ------------- Co: Pa.tisanthaaroti aya.m lokasannivaaso aamisena dhammena caati dviihi chiddo, tassa ta.m chidda.m yathaa na pa~n~naayati, eva.m pii.thassa viya paccatthara.nena aamisena dhammena ca pa.tisanthara.na.m. Abhidhammepi vutta.m ‘‘tattha katamo pa.tisanthaaro ? Aamisapa.tisanthaaro ca dhammapa.tisanthaaro ca. Idhekacco pa.tisanthaarako hoti aamisapa.tisanthaarena vaa dhammapa.tisanthaarena vaa. Aya.m vuccati pa.tisanthaaro’’ti (dha. sa. 1351). .....Sakkacca.m uddesadaana.m paa.liva.n.nanaa dhammakathaakathananti eva.m dhammena sa"ngaho dhammapa.tisanthaaro naama. ---------- sutta: DN 33.1.9(16) 'Non-harming and purity.*1024 Avihi.msaa ca soceyya~nca. ---------- N: As to non-harming, avihi.msaa, the Co refers to what is said before about compassion, karu.naa and explains that non-harming is compassion. The compassion that is extended to beings, liberation of mind (cetovimutti) through compassion. ----------- Co: Avihi.msaati karu.naapi karu.naapubbabhaagopi. Vuttampi ceta.m – ‘‘tattha katamaa avihi.msaa? Yaa sattesu karu.naa karu.naayanaa karu.naayitatta.m karu.naacetovimutti, aya.m vuccati avihi.msaa’’ti. -------------- As to purity, soceyya, the Co. refers to what is said before about mettaa and explains that this is a pure nature (sucibhaavo) because of mettaa. It is mettaa extended to beings, liberation of mind through mettaa. Co: Soceyyanti mettaaya ca mettaapubbabhaagassa ca vasena sucibhaavo. Vuttampi ceta.m – ‘‘tattha katama.m soceyya.m? Yaa sattesu metti mettaayanaa mettaayitatta.m mettaacetovimutti, ida.m vuccati soceyya’’nti. ******** Nina. #89008 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:06 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Should one prepare for vipassanå? Should one sit in a quiet place in order to become calm first, before one can study the nåmas and rúpas which appear? We have seen that there is calm in samatha and that right understanding of the meditation subject is the condition for calm. In vipassanå there is also calm and it is conditioned by right understanding. The right understanding in vipassanå is different from the right understanding in samatha. Through the development of vipassanå one will see nåmas and rúpas as they are, as not self. When there is right understanding of the reality which appears calm arises at that moment, there is no need to aim for calm. Trying to become calm as a preparation for vipassanå is not the right condition for the arising of sati. Intellectual understanding of nåma and rúpa and of the development of vipassanå is the right condition. Intellectual understanding of nåma and rípa is different from the direct experience of their characteristics and one should know this difference. It is important to know when there is sati and when there is no sati. If we have correct understanding of sati it can be developed. Many realities are appearing, such as seeing, hearing, attachment, hardness or heat, but mostly there is forgetfulness, no study of realities. But sometimes sati may arise, just for a moment, and begin to be aware of one reality at a time. We may try to explain in many ways what sati is, but it can only be known from experience, when it has actually arisen already. Sati is not self, we cannot be master of sati. Sati cannot arise whenever we want it to arise, and for as long as we wish. However much we want to have sati, it is beyond control. It can arise only when there are the right conditions for its arising. When we listen to the Dhamma as it is explained by the good friend in Dhamma, when we consider what we have heard, ask questions and discuss Dhamma, our intellectual understanding will grow and this can condition right mindfulness. We should know that also intellectual understanding is not self, that it arises because of conditions. It can arise only when we have listened to the Dhamma already and pondered over it for a long time, and when there is steadfast remembrance of what we have heard. ******* Nina. #89009 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is nama nilovg Dear Chew, I appreciate your interest. Op 12-aug-2008, om 18:23 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > Can you please explain on why Nibbana is also called "Nama"? > Which we normally only called Citta and Cetasikas as "Nama". ------- N: In the Dhammasangani Pali: 1091: which dhammas are aruupino (not having ruupa)? asa"nkhataa dhaatu, the uncondiitoned element, is nibbaana. The Atthasaalinii gives more explanations. It associates naama with namati, bending. We read in the Commentary to the Sangiitisutta: < The four naama-khandhas are name in the sense of bending (namati), for they bend toward, face an object. In the sense of causing to bend, all [N; including nibbaana] are naama. For the four naama- khandhas cause one another to bend on to the object; and nibbaana bends blameless dhammas on to itself because it is the condition of predominance of object (aaramma.naadhipati-paccaya) for them.> N: Nibbaana is naama, not in the sense of experiencing an object, but it is an object that can be experienced; it is a predominant object for the cittas that experience it. It is helpful to know that nibbaana is naama, not ruupa. Some people believe that nibbaana is a place where one can go, but this belief is refuted when one knows that nibbaana is naama. Nina. #89010 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 4, no 3. egberdina Hi Nina, 2008/8/12 Nina van Gorkom : > Dear Rinzee, > thank you for your interest. > Op 11-aug-2008, om 7:34 heeft rinzeee het volgende geschreven: > > ------- > N: It is a learning process, it takes along, long time before there > can be direct insight. There can be a beginning of attending to the > characteristics of the nama or rupa that appears through one of the > six doors. I say: right now, since in selecting specific moments or a > specific time the idea of self intervenes. Awareness and > understanding can and should be developed in daily life. > There are conditions for thinking all the time, and it can be learnt > that also thinking is a conditioned nama. We should not try to avoid > thinking, since this is again catering to the idea of self. There > should not be any selection of objects. > --------- In saying that there should not be any selection of objects, you are acknowledging that it is possible to select objects. Thank you. Cheers Herman #89011 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta egberdina Hi KenH, 2008/8/13 kenhowardau : > Hi Sukin, Howard, Herman and Jon, > > Thanks for your discussion of this extraordinary and difficult to > understand sutta. (Aren't they all?) May I suggest that this sutta is not difficult as such, but rather that it says things you don't want to hear? Abhidhamma is what is difficult by any standard, that is why it is prefixed with abhi. If you find suttas difficult, for your own sake, please steer clear of abhidhamma. Oh, and the difficult sutta also says that you were bonked into existence by your mum and dad. Don't ever forget that while reading abhidhamma. You wouldn't want to use abhidhamma as a flight from reality now, would you? Cheers Herman #89012 From: "S.Ganesh" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:04 am Subject: A Life Free From Money behappy.metta A Life Free from Money Information about the Money Rules for Buddhist Monks and Nuns by Dhamminda Bhikkhu This manuscript may be reproduced without the permission of the author. Contents Part 1 Information For Lay Supporters Part 2 The Fault In Accepting Money Part 3 The Rules Concerning Money Part 4 Forfeiture And Confession Part 5 Modern Methods Conclusion Information about the Money Rules This article was written for the many bhikkhus who have asked me questions about the money rules found in the Vinaya. Since a newly ordained bhikkhu has little chance of being able to read the commentaries I have translated many sections from there. I hope that there is sufficient information in this article to help bhikkhus to understand how to keep these rules. Part 1. Information for Lay Supporters Do you know that the Buddha did not allow monks and novices to acceptmoney ? You will certainly have noticed that the vast majority of monks do accept and use money. This is one of the factors that will lead to the disappearance of the Buddha�s Teaching. You can help to keep the Buddha�s Teaching alive by learning how to offer allowable requisites. In this section we will list the main points that a layperson should remember so that a monk (bhikkhu) may obtain requisites without breaking the rules of Vinaya. 1. Never offer money to bhikkhus, but only offer allowable requisites such as robes, medicine, books, or tickets for transport. If you are unsure as to what a bhikkhu needs then you can ask him, or invite him to ask you if he needs anything. 2. A fund for requisites can be left with a kappiya (someone who performs services for a bhikkhu) and he should be instructed to buy and offer requisites for a bhikkhu, a group of bhikkhus, or the sangha of a monastery. Do not ask the bhikkhu, `To whom should this be given to ?� If you ask in this way then it is not allowable for a bhikkhu to point out a kappiya. Simply say, `Venerable Sir, I want to offer requisites to you. Who is your kappiya ?� 3. Having instructed the kappiya then inform the bhikkhu by saying, `I have left a fund for requisites worth `x� dollars with your kappiya. When you need requisites ask him and he will offer them to you.� 4. If you already know who the bhikkhu�s kappiya is then you can simply leave the fund with the kappiya and inform the bhikkhu as above in no 3. Please read the above carefully and take note of what to say. The above procedure was allowed by the Buddha in what is called the `Mendaka allowance�. It is found in the Bhesajja Khandhaka of Mahavagga in the Vinaya Pitaka and the translation of it reads: Bhikkhus, there are people of faith and respect and if they should entrust money in the hands of a kappiya and instruct him saying, `With this money offer allowable requisites to this Venerable One,� then bhikkhus I allow you to accept whatever allowable requisites are obtained with that money, but bhikkhus, in no way whatsoever do I allow money to be accepted or searched for.� <......> #89013 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:17 am Subject: Re: Sila Always Comes First ! jonoabb Dear Tep > The Dhamma-vinaya and several suttas clearly show the sequential Sila- > Samadhi-Pa~n~na development, starting with restraint of the senses. > > "If there is no sense control, o monks, then the basis for virtue > is destroyed for one who lacks sense control. If there is no virtue, > then the basis for right concentration is destroyed for one who lacks > virtue. If there is no concentration, then the basis for knowledge > and vision of things as they really are is destroyed for one who > lacks concentration." [AN VI, 50] > > I thought you might want to know. Thanks for the sutta quote. I'm not sure what you mean when by "the sequential Sila-Samadhi-Pa~n~na development". I would agree that those factors represent ascending levels of kusala, and that the development of each is dependent (among other things) on the development of those of the previous level(s). Furthermore, they become perfected in that order (sila by the sotapanna, samadhi by the anagami, panna by the arahant). I'm aware that some people say the only when sila has been perfected can any samadhi be developed, and only when samadhi has been perfected can any panna be developed. But I see no such statement in the sutta passage you've quoted. Do you? Jon #89014 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Stream enterer endowed with N8P (which includes Jhana) jonoabb Hi Herman > Given that, a vote of thanks must go to Jon and Sarah (or the other > way around; I'll let them work out who wears the pants :-)) for > allowing polite and/or critical discussions (sometimes very critical, > but still polite) to take place here. It is a credit to their > understanding of the Dhamma, that nothing anybody can say or do, is > seen as threatening to the Dhamma. Many thanks for these comments. It's good to know someone thinks we manage to get it right some of the time ;-)). As far as keeping to the Dhamma and not 'reacting' to criticism is concerned, I feel most fortunate in having A Sujin as an example. It is from her that I have learnt what respect for the Dhamma really means. Jon #89015 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the Relevance of the Abhidhamma. egberdina Hi Nina, 2008/8/10 Nina van Gorkom : > Post from Lodewijk to Howard about the relevance of the Abhidhamma, > after a discussion about Howard wondering about the necessity of so > many details explained in the Abhidhamma. > ------- > Dear Howard, > > Our life is composed of myriads of small endlessly variegated > details, which, each of them, have an impact on each other, and on > the course of our life. There is such a whirlwind of physical > phenomena and mental phenomena that change all the time. > If we want to understand what our daily life in reality is, it is > just simply essential to understand all these details, their > intricacy and mutual relationship, as so clearly explained in the > Abhidhamma. > Please pass this on to Lodewijk if you are inclined. Please tell him I'm not posting this for the sake of arguing. But it seems to me that awareness of only the minutiae of daily life can give no insight into what is happening. An example may help to clarify. If I get on a train to Sydney, and then proceed to be aware of seeing now, hearing now, feeling now, thinking now, without regard to the overriding intention, it is ignorance that finds me in Sydney. If I see now without relating it to why I am seeing what I am seeing, and the same for hearing etc, this is not awareness at all. Rather, it is self-deceit, it is avoidance of mindfulness. Unless seeing now is related to the intention to travel to Sydney, nothing is seen (understood). The fundamentals that apply to my daily activities are that I am married to Vicki, to the exclusion of all others, that I live in one certain place, to the exclusion of all others, that I spend most of the weekday at my place of work, doing specific things, to the exclusion of other places and other activities. And so on, und so weiter. There is nothing that makes me do these things, and unless I am mindful I may well deceive myself about the arising of these things. If I am not married to Vicki in each moment of seeing,hearing etc if I do not live in my address, if I do not work where I work etc then I understand nothing about what is seen, heard etc. I hope this is clear. Please ask if you require clarification. Cheers Herman #89016 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila Always Comes First ! Graduated Talk jonoabb Hi Alex > Here the understanding isn't in terms of fleeting > mind moments, but in macro-world issues. Aging, death, illnesses, > impermanence, danger, punishments, etc. Throughout the suttas, conventional language used to speak of dhammas. The classic example is the Four Noble Truths. It is formulated in conventional language, but it refers to dhammas. The gradual Teaching (aanupubbii-kathaa) is another example. Each of the various stages can be understood in terms of dhammas. To my understanding, that is how they were understood by those ready for enlightenment who heard the teaching from the Buddha. > A: Here is a talk leading to Stream Entry: > ânupubbî-kathâ: step by step teaching > 1) Generosity (dâna) > 2) Virtue (sîla) > 3) Heaven (sagga) > 4) Danger &Drawback of sensual pleasure (kâmânaṃ âdînava) > 5) Renunciation (nekkhamma) > --------- ... > Samadhi comes second (in order of training) to Sila, and Panna comes > after sila & Samadhi. What do you mean by "in order of training". Does this means there can be no development of samadhi until sila has been perfected (bearing in mind that sila is only perfected by the sotapanna)? Jon #89017 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:29 am Subject: Re: No-Self, no control teaching in Vipassana & "Samatha" jonoabb Hi Alex > IN Vipassana practice, I've myself seen (only glimpses, for now) no- > control things such as limbs moving by themselves. As I understand > the practice, it is done WITHOUT atta-ditthi. If atta-ditthi is > present while doing vipassana, then it is not vipassana but something > else entirely. I quite agree that any moment of atta-ditthi cannot be a moment of vipassana. And in any deliberate or formal kind of practice, there are bound to be many moments of atta-ditthi, wouldn't you agree? > As I understand it, if you cling to anything during the "practice", > then your not getting Awakened. But lets be clear about it, Bhavana > is needed for Neyya & Padaparama induvidials - like us. Surely bhavana (development) is needed for *all* individuals. Perhaps you think of bhavana as signifying some kind of special practice? I don't think that's how it's used in the texts. It means simply the (gradual) accretion of the quality in question through an appreciation of the value of the further development of that quality. Jon #89018 From: "Chew" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana is nama chewsadhu Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply. You helped me to clear my question. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chew, > I appreciate your interest. > ... > It is helpful to know that nibbaana is naama, not ruupa. Some people > believe that nibbaana is a place where one can go, but this belief is > refuted when one knows that nibbaana is naama. > Nina. #89019 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:33 am Subject: Re: Just studying... How to study Abhidhamma> jonoabb Hi Alex > Please explain in your own words and current understanding: How to > properly study Abhidhamma for > > a) Stream Entry > b) Post stream Entry The Abhidhamma is not there to be *studied* (at least not in any formal sense); it's there to be *understood*. In this sense, it's no different to the Suttas. An understanding of the Abhidhamma helps with an understanding of the Suttas, and vice versa. Both contain the teachings of the Buddha, but presented in a different manner. An intellectual understanding of that teaching is a necessary basis for the direct understanding about which the Buddha taught. As we've been discussing in another thread, it is gaining an intellectual understanding of what is useful and necessary to know, as a basis for a direct understanding of dhammas, that is the "studying" of the teachings. Exactly how that occurs is not important. It would, for example, be possible to gain that understanding without actually reading the texts of the Tipitaka. Jon #89020 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:34 am Subject: Re: Sila Always Comes First ! jonoabb Hi Scott Thanks for the sutta quotes (with Pali) and your comments. > "If there is no sense control, o monks, then the basis for virtue > is destroyed for one who lacks sense control. If there is no virtue, > then the basis for right concentration is destroyed for one who lacks > virtue. If there is no concentration, then the basis for knowledge > and vision of things as they really are is destroyed for one who > lacks concentration." [AN VI, 50] > > "8. Indriyasanvarasutta.m Control of the mental faculties > ... > This means to me that unless sati recognizes that the dhammas > conditioning siila are in fact kusala - and this can't be done by > merely thinking about what one is doing - there is a chance that what > one thinks is siila might not be siila. (siilavipannassa). I agree with this. The nature of kusala is to be recognised, not deduced by reference to an analysis of (i.e., by thinking about) the act being done. Jon #89021 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:36 am Subject: Re: Just studying... How to properly study Abhidhamma> jonoabb Hi Alex > Can you explain a typical day for > Abhidhammika? How does one apply it to daily life. I can understand > reading, but we cannot read all day long. So as you say that one is > reminded of just seeing and so on. So after a while defilements start > to decrease, because one is used to thinking, (perhaps repeating > mentally) and reading about just "seeing" . The development of the path it is a matter of (a) correctly understanding what the Buddha was saying about the development of the path, and (b) verifying in our lives any part of what has been correctly understood. There is no requirement that a certain amount of reading be done, and no promise of any marked and continuous decrease in defilements. What is important is a greater understanding of the way things (i.e., dhammas) truly are. Jon #89022 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:37 am Subject: Of Mice and Men (Re: [dsg] A question on contiguity) jonoabb Hi Herman > However I questioned all your examples of various types of > consciousness as being possible candidates for being dhammas. Simply > because consciousness of whatever kind cannot be known. And our recent > discussions, as well as other discussions about nimitta bear this out. > An intellectual understanding of consciousness, as something that > knows itself, is just not possible, Jon. Yes, I understand that that's what you say. What I'm saying is that the Buddha's teachings say otherwise (that is to say, I'm putting that forward not as a view of my own, but as my reading of the texts on the matter). > But I would still like to talk about patterns, and that it is not very > useful or sincere to just define them away :-) I'm quite happy to talk about patterns. From my perspective, the problem to date is that I've not been given a clear explanation of how you're using that term. Jon #89023 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:38 am Subject: Re: kayagatasati .. Relentless Training ... jonoabb Hi Tep > T: If you want an even bigger picture, then not only the All but also > the 201 dhammas as stated in the Patisambhidamagga as well. > ------------------------ To my understanding, the 201 dhammas as stated in the Patisambhidamagga would all be included in the All of the suttas. Jon #89024 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:39 am Subject: Re: kayagatasati .. Relentless Training ... jonoabb Hi Tep > T: Effort may be right (samma) or wrong (miccha); never heard of > conventional effort. Right and wrong effort in the teachings refer to the mental factor of viraya that is present in all kusala and akusala cittas. Effort as used in every-day speech ("conventional effort") means the idea of striving to do something, use of willpower, etc. > T: An intention or motivation to have more kusala is necessary, > otherwise how can you be mindful in developing kusala? As I explained in a recent post to Alex, - kusala can and does arise without there being any specific intention that it should do so, i.e., spontaneously, and - at times of its (spontaneous) arising, an appreciation of the value of those moments as kusala worthy of development will condition its further development. Jon #89025 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:41 am Subject: Re: Relentless Training: No Retreat, No Surrender! No pain, no gain! jonoabb Hi Alex > > The sutta is talking about samatha bhavana, not vipassana bhavana. > > But it does end with Arahatship. So even *if* the sutta talks about > just "samatha", it is of a good sort. Yes, that's so. In fact I need to correct what I said in my previous post. I should have said that the sutta is talking about the purification of concentration, which is a reference to concentration that is developed along with insight. But getting back to the point under discussion, you said: > The sutta [MN20 – see below] illustrates "doing" > something about akusala thoughts. Would you mind saying what, specifically, is the "doing" (i.e., the thing to be done) that is illustrated by the sutta, and how is it to be done, as you understand it? > Not simply "understanding what one read in a book". Agreed. Nobody is saying that. > > To my understanding, it is the arising of kusala that "crushes" the > > akusala, not willpower or directed effort of some kind. > > But the arising of kusala has to be caused, many times and very > energetically (atappi, and all that). It is not "just happens out of > a clear sky". Strong effects, require strong causes. The only way that kusala can be "strong" is by its having been developed to the stage of being a "strength". If one's accumulated kusala is relatively undeveloped, then "strength" is still a long way off (i.e., not in this lifetime). You say, "the arising of kusala *has to be caused, many times and very energetically* (atappi, and all that)". But the sutta is not setting out a general practice for all to follow. It is directed to persons of already highly developed kusala. If that's not you or me right now, then so be it. > Samatha Bhavana can be useful as you've just admitted as it can help > kusala to arise, willpower & directed effort to be mobilized and so one. All kusala is a support. But the question is whether or not there can be the development of insight at some level regardless of one's level of development of samatha. Jon MN 20 "If evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion or delusion — still arise in the monk while he is attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts, then — with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth — he should beat down, constrain, and crush his mind with his awareness... With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html #89026 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dogmatism. Focussing on Anything is Wrong? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Alex et al) - In a message dated 8/12/2008 9:10:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: Dear Alex (Scott, Sarah, ..), - Thank you for the good reply below. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > T: The corresponding translation by the Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu > is : "For him — uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining > focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head >toward future diminution. " The only "trouble" to you and Sarah >that I see seems to be the words "remaining focused". ............................. Alex: Lets not forget that in such beloved "satipatthana" there are many passages of focusing on "body in the body", "feelings in the feelings" and so on. This refutes the idea of "passive observation". >Furthermore the who dogmatic attitude of "focussing is *always* wrong" is uncharacteristic of Awakened Buddha. ============================= >If focussing causes akusala to diminish and kusala to grow, then it is skillful focusing. >If focussing causes akusala to increase and kusala to wane, then it unskillful focusing. >Period. ............................. Best wishes, Alex ========================= T: I am not sure if those who have claimed to possess of "panna of Satipatthana" actually understand that vitakka and vicara of the first jhana are supporting factors for establishing mindfulness on kaya, vedana, citta, and dhamma. That directed meditation is "focussing" as I understand it. Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta (SN 47.10) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.010.olen.html Tep === ========================================= Tep, I agree with what you say about the roles of vitakka & vicara, which I think of as applying and sustaining attention, thereby maintaining mindfulness and avoiding getting lost in thought or in sloth & torpor. Alex, as regards contemplating "the X in the X," in several suttas pertaining to the four foundations of mindfulness, I think the point there is to attend to the actual sense-door phenomena that arise as opposed to an amalgam of them thought of as a single "thing". (So, to observe a pain sensation or an itch or a sight or boredom or whatever, per se, as opposed to "oneself" as hurting or being uncomfortable or seeing or being bored etc.) But I don't think it refers to laser-beam concentration, if that's what you had in mind. But as for the original material "For him — uninfatuated, unattached, unconfused, remaining focused on their drawbacks — the five clinging-aggregates head toward future diminution," I take that use of 'focused' as a very informal usage, with "remaining focused on their drawbacks" meaning only "keeping their drawbacks firmly in mind." As regards SN 47.10, the central material is the following: _____________________________________________________ Here, Ananda, a monk abides contemplating body as body_*_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.010.olen.html#n1) — ardent, fully aware, mindful — leading away the unhappiness that comes from wanting the things of the world. And for one who is abiding contemplating body as body,_*_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.010.olen.html#n1) a bodily object arises, or bodily distress, or mental sluggishness, that scatters his mind outward. Then the monk should direct his mind to some satisfactory image. When the mind is directed to some satisfactory image, happiness is born. From this happiness, joy is then born. With a joyful mind, the body relaxes. A relaxed body feels content, and the mind of one content becomes concentrated. He then reflects: "The purpose for which I directed my my mind has been accomplished. So now I shall withdraw [directed attention from the image]." He withdraws, and no longer thinks upon or thinks about [the image]. He understands: "I am not thinking upon or thinking about [anything]. Inwardly mindful, I am content." This is directed meditation. And what is undirected meditation? Not directing his mind outward, a monk understands: "My mind is not directed outward." He understands: "Not focused on before or after; free; undirected." And he understands: "I abide observing body as body — ardent, fully aware, mindful — I am content." This is undirected meditation. ____________________________________________________ The "directed meditation" is, I believe, the early stage of meditating that involves countering distractions by briefly turning the mind towards a pleasant and wholesome object that produces joy and relaxation and concentration (in the sense, I believe, of non-distraction) so that the meditation can then move into the choiceless-awareness phase that is the "undirected meditation" that is the real meditation. Undirected meditation in its fullness may well begin with second jhana. ========================================= With metta, Howard /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #89027 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/8/10 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > > However, making arrangements to meet to discuss dhamma does not > necessarily imply an idea of there being moments of awareness/insight > involved in the discussion. If I ever found myself writing in order to play semantical games, or construct a legal beagle escape clause so that I could continue to argue a vapid point, I suspect I would stop writing once I became aware of it. Given all that, I agree that flying to Bangkok does not necessarily imply anything. In principle it is no different from, > say, logging on to an internet discussion group to exchange messages > about the teachings. > In principle doesn't exist, Jon. You fly to Bangkok for whatever reason you do, it doesn't just happen. SimilarIy, I write here what I write when I do, without compulsion. I hope you find what you are looking for in Bangkok, and if you're not looking for anything you may as well not go, don't you think? Cheers Herman #89028 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Metta, Ch 9, no 2. egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/8/10 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > >> I agree with you that seeing the way things are is the most useful >> activity. In the context of that, I believe that seeing anicca as >> applying universally (to whatever falls under "the all") is the > limit >> of experience. Conversely, I believe that moments, in which a member >> of a catalogue of paramattha dhammas with their own sabbhava that > rise >> and fall individually, are not experiencable. I also believe that > all >> modern theories of how perception works reject that experience is >> composed of individual, absolute elements. > > My understanding of seeing things the way they truly are, according > to the teachings, involves firstly understanding at an intellectual > level what are the "things" that can be directly experienced at the > present moment. These of course are the "dhammas" that you would > rather not talk about ;-)). I am quite happy to talk about dhammas, and how the teachings say if you want them presently you can only actually have nimittas. So, Jon, what are the nimittas of the present moment? And isn't the Tipitaka just full of reminders to be aware of the present nimitta? Not!! :-) > > Anicca as a characteristic of dhammas is something that becomes > apparent as awareness of/insight into dhammas is developed. It is > not something that, having been conceptualised, can be seen as > applying in and around us in the world. (Of course, there is a sense > in which the conventional world can be regarded as manifesting > impermanence, but that is something altogether different to the > impermanence spoken of by the Buddha, as I understand the texts.) > Yeah, right. Cheers Herman #89029 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Space (Sarah's notes 1) egberdina Hi Sarah and all, 2008/8/10 sarah abbott : > Dear Friends, > Thank you for your series on how space is treated in the Tipitaka. I truly appreciate all the effort that went into it. What I write next is not intended to detract from what you wrote, but it asks people to be very careful about whatever they choose as a topic for consideration. Consider this :-) From DN16 Eight Causes of Earthquakes 12. And the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One, and respectfully greeting him, sat down at one side. Then he spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Marvellous it is indeed, and most wonderful! The earth shakes mightily, tremendously! Dreadful and astonishing it is how the thunders roll across the heavens! What could be the reason, what the cause, that so mighty an earthquake should arise?" 13. Then the Blessed One said: "There are eight reasons, Ananda, eight causes for a mighty earthquake to arise. What are those eight? 14. "This great earth, Ananda, is established upon liquid, the liquid upon the atmosphere, and the atmosphere upon space. And when, Ananda, mighty atmospheric disturbances take place, the liquid is agitated. And with the agitation of the liquid, tremors of the earth arise. This is the first reason, the first cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes. 15. "Again, Ananda, when an ascetic or holy man of great power, one who has gained mastery of his mind, or a deity who is mighty and potent, develops intense concentration on the delimited aspect of the earth element, and to a boundless degree on the liquid element, he, too, causes the earth to tremble, quiver, and shake. This is the second reason, the second cause for the arising of mighty earthquakes. 16-21. "Again, Ananda, when the Bodhisatta departs from the Tusita realm and descends into his mother's womb, mindfully and clearly comprehending; and when the Bodhisatta comes out from his mother's womb, mindfully and clearly comprehending; and when the Tathagata becomes fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment; when the Tathagata sets rolling the excellent Wheel of the Dhamma; when the Tathagata renounces his will to live on; and when the Tathagata comes to pass away into the state of Nibbana in which no element of clinging remains — then, too, Ananda, this great earth trembles, quivers, and shakes. "These, Ananda, are the eight reasons, the eight causes for a great earthquake to arise. 27 === Personally, I believe that those who placed the explanation of earthquakes in verse 14, and how space places a role there, into the mouth of the Buddha, have a lot to answer for. Certainly, they have made the Buddha into a quack. As to the remaining seven explanations as to why earthquakes occur, I'm embarrassed to even quote it. Cheers Herman #89030 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Sukin, Herman, and Jon) - In a message dated 8/12/2008 9:27:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Sukin, Howard, Herman and Jon, Thanks for your discussion of this extraordinary and difficult to understand sutta. (Aren't they all?) If I am following correctly, Ananda said to the Bhikkhunni something along the lines of, "Motivated by craving [for arahantship] and conceited [with the thought of being an arahant] I sought wise companionship and heard the true Dhamma. Therefore, in my case, those forms of misconduct turned out to be [natural decisive support] condition for bhavana. Sexual misconduct, however, can never be a condition for bhavana." That would seem reasonable to me. --------------------------------------------- Howard: To me as well, Ken. (Now you first need to worry! ;-) As regards sexual desire and misconduct, somewhere the Buddha taught that though it is not the most serious of hindrances, dosa being far worse, it IS one of the most difficult to overcome and one of the last to go. ----------------------------------------------- As we all agree, we shouldn't *worry* that our motives for listening to, and discussing, the Dhamma may include craving and conceit. We shouldn't wait before opening a Dhamma book, or before posting a message to DSG, until we can be *sure* there is no craving for results or rewards. Otherwise we would be waiting forever. Being uninstructed worldlings, we simply don't know our own motives that well. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: IMO, that is all true. --------------------------------------------- If, however, our akusala motives amounted to akusala kammapatha (breach of the precepts) then we *would* know that akusala was involved and, therefore, we should not follow those inclinations. If, for example, we had to kill someone in order to get the last taxi to a discussion meeting we would do better (needless to say) not to attend the meeting at all. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm, well ..., getting a taxi IS important, man! ;-)) BTW, you're actually zeroing in on something that I think is very important. There are SO many religionists of various stripes who, in the name of their religion, act in a manner wildly opposed to the core teachings of their own religion. We humans are very defective merchandise! LOL! We are typically led by our desires, and then we bring in the big gun of our reasoning ability to launch an attempted defense of our attitudes and actions. -------------------------------------------- Even more obviously, if our akusala motives were directed, not at hearing, discussing and applying the Dhamma, but at having illicit sex, or at performing anti-Dhamma rituals (and the like), then by no means should they be acted upon. By no means could they become conditions for bhavana. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. (Of course, it is not always clear what is "anti-Dhamma," and fair-minded people may have differing perspectives on that.) ----------------------------------------------- Hmm, now that I have spelt it out, my interpretation does seem a bit rough-and-ready. If it completely misses the mark please say so. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm very happy with your post, Ken. ---------------------------------------------- Ken H ======================= With metta, Howard #89031 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suicide, Antarabhava, can of dead worms egberdina Hi Sarah, 2008/8/12 sarah abbott : > Dear Alex, > > > A:>Take whose life? Is there a distinction between taking someone else's > life and "one's own". > .... > S: Yes. One of the conditions for killing (as akusala kamma-patha) is there being another sentient being that is killed and the knowledge of such. Just like hurting another person, lying to another person etc is not the same as hurting oneself. > I notice that you allow for the possibility of lying to another person. Of course I agree with you that that is a possibility. Do you allow for the possibility of lying to yourself? I think it happens all the time, but I think the Abhidhamma cannot explain this most fundamental of human behaviours. Do you think self-deceit is possible in the Abhidhamma? Cheers Herman #89032 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:47 am Subject: Re: Sila Always Comes First ! scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks for the reply: J: "...The nature of kusala is to be recognised, not deduced by reference to an analysis of (i.e., by thinking about) the act being done." Scott: The story this makes me think of was from the other day. Rebecca got a chance to go to Calgary for a few days with her older sisters. She and Bonnie were in line to get on the bus. I was waiting by the car to see them off (since Rebecca, at eleven, wanted to say good-bye discreetly). As I waited, an older woman came out of the line-up. She appeared to have forgotten something and was trying, in a very ineffectual way, to get the attention of someone who was slowly pulling away in a vehicle - I assumed the one who had dropped her off. As she walked away from the line-up toward the vehicle which was slowly edging out of the parking lot, with her half-waving and rather hesitant approach, the impulse arose in me to maybe go and get the driver's attention myself. This impulse didn't produce movement, however. I watched her half-hearted attempts fail to achieve what I imagined was the desired effect of stopping the man in the vehicle. I was already thinking about the whole thing, and by then, the time to act, if there ever had been one, was over. I was interested in this. It's hard to say what the impulse was. Was the impulse to help kusala? Was it akusala? Did the fact that it did not lead to action suggest anything about the nature of the impulse - perhaps that kusala was not developed enough to lead to action? Did sati arise and were the senses guarded? Was this not my affair? Or was it, as some might argue, just an example of an unkind and selfish man doing nothing when there was a damsel in distress? I don't find this as cut and dried as some make out. The other story this reminds me of was when we got out of the car on the way in to a bookstore to get books for the kids. I noticed that a magpie had found a very large caterpillar and had been pecking it preparatory to what might have been an excellent meal. Rebecca saw what I had been looking at and was distressed for the caterpillar, wanting me to save it immediately. Since the creature was no doubt moribund, there was no saving it, and this was something entirely between two other beings - or more specifically, something going on in each of two beings and by conditions - bird killing, caterpillar reaching the end of a life-cycle. Sincerely, Scott. #89033 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 3. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/13/2008 4:06:46 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, Should one prepare for vipassanÃ¥? Should one sit in a quiet place in order to become calm first, before one can study the nÃ¥mas and rúpas which appear? ================================ Certainly there is no occasion, no time or place, at which attending to what arises and ceases is not of value. But at the outset of the Satipatthana Sutta, the Buddha did teach the following: ____________________________________________________ "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. _____________________________________________________ I have no doubt that "having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building " is not just throw-away line, but emphasizes the usefulness of seclusion in meditating! And this is a sutta dealing with satipatthana, not just samatha. With metta, Howard #89034 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Life Free From Money nilovg Dear Ganesh, I appreciate your post. It is important for lay followers to know how to behave. Layfollowers have a responsibility too in helping the monks so that the Vinaya is observed. Nina. Op 13-aug-2008, om 12:04 heeft S.Ganesh het volgende geschreven: > Part 1 Information For Lay Supporters > Part 2 The Fault In Accepting Money > Part 3 The Rules Concerning Money #89035 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 13-aug-2008, om 15:54 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I have no doubt that "having gone to the wilderness, to the shade > of a tree, > or to an empty building " is not just throw-away line, but > emphasizes the > usefulness of seclusion in meditating! And this is a sutta dealing > with > satipatthana, not just samatha. ------- N: This refers to a monk, and moreoever, he develops samatha and vipassana with the subject of breathing, the most difficult subject there is according to the Visuddhimagga. But both monks and laypeople should develop right understanding of any reality appearing in daily life, no matter where they are, no matter when. Right understanding of the object of vipassana is the preparation, not seclusion in itself. For bhikkhu life seclusion is suitable, but this does not mean that right understanding is not a foremost condition for vipassana. The monk should not seek company, going to the village at any odd time or talk animal talk. Before, seclusion was discussed: bodily seclusion (kaya viveka), mental seclusion (citta viveka, from clinging to sense objects) and upadhi viveka, seclusion of the arahat, no more conditions for rebirth. ***** Nina. #89036 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 3. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/13/2008 10:18:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, van gorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 13-aug-2008, om 15:54 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I have no doubt that "having gone to the wilderness, to the shade > of a tree, > or to an empty building " is not just throw-away line, but > emphasizes the > usefulness of seclusion in meditating! And this is a sutta dealing > with > satipatthana, not just samatha. ------- N: This refers to a monk, and moreoever, he develops samatha and vipassana with the subject of breathing, the most difficult subject there is according to the Visuddhimagga. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: It works quite well for me, Nina, and I'm neither monk nor "superman". (And throughout the suttas, the Buddha says "monks" to mixed audiences. It generally does not refer literally to monks only.) ---------------------------------------------- But both monks and laypeople should develop right understanding of any reality appearing in daily life, no matter where they are, no matter when. Right understanding of the object of vipassana is the preparation, not seclusion in itself. For bhikkhu life seclusion is suitable, but this does not mean that right understanding is not a foremost condition for vipassana. The monk should not seek company, going to the village at any odd time or talk animal talk. Before, seclusion was discussed: bodily seclusion (kaya viveka), mental seclusion (citta viveka, from clinging to sense objects) and upadhi viveka, seclusion of the arahat, no more conditions for rebirth. ***** Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard #89037 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 3. truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > Op 13-aug-2008, om 15:54 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > I have no doubt that "having gone to the wilderness, to the >shade > > of a tree, > > or to an empty building " is not just throw-away line, but > > emphasizes the > > usefulness of seclusion in meditating! And this is a sutta >dealing > > with > > satipatthana, not just samatha. > ------- > N: This refers to a monk, and moreoever, Not just to the monks. This applies to lay people as well. Lay people should make the best use of retreat situations to really have the good supporting conditions of Satipatthana. Let us also remember that "just ordaining, or just wearing robes" doesn't make monk a monk. > he develops samatha and > vipassana with the subject of breathing, the most difficult >subject Then why did the Buddha taught it so often? It becomes difficult because of ancient mistake in VsM about Kasina meditation and all the nimitta signs that "have to appear" prior to Jhana. Best wishes, Alex #89038 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:02 am Subject: Re: Just studying... How to properly study Abhidhamma> truth_aerator Dear Jon and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > What is important is a greater understanding of the way things (i.e., > dhammas) truly are. > > Jon This happens after heavy samatha practice. You see, we have lots of defilements which add on, or subtract from the bare experience. The reality is what it is and isn't what it isn't. The reality is not what it seems (to a mind overcome by defilements) but neither is it different from what is. The thing about samatha is that it calms down the defilements so that the perception of reality is less and less twisted by defilements & perversions. Of course if one tries to incorporate Jhana within some doctrinal context and see through the lenses of Doctrine, then the effects will be hindered. But the suttas tell us enough we need to know, but it is only for the defilements "not enough". Even the Buddha has stated in Upanisa sutta that samadhi is proximate condition of seeing as it is. So the proper study of ABh is after Jhana, when mind is bright and capable. Best wishes, Alex #89039 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:29 am Subject: Re: [Relentless Training] .. the All and the 201 dhammas .... indriyabala Hi Jon, - FYI please observe the list of 201 dhammas below and tell me if you still think that the All subsumes the 201 dhammas. ................. The Path of Discrimination [The 'All'] 47. 'Bhikkhus, all is to be fully understood. And what is all that is to be fully understood? Eye is to be fully understood, visible objects are to be fully understood, eye consciousness is to be fully understood, eye contact is to be fully understood, any feeling that arises with eye contacr as its condition whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant is also to be fully understood. Ear is to be fully understood, sounds ...Nose is to be fully understood, odors ... Tongue is to be fully understood, flavors ... Body is to be fully understood, tangible objects ... Mind is to be fully understood, ideas are to be fully understood, mind consciousness is to be fully understood, mind contact is to be fully understood, any feeling that arises with mind contact as its condition whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant is to be fully understood is also to be fully understood'. ................. 5. [201 things] 1-5. Materiality, feeling, perception, formations, consciousness are each to be directly known. 6-11. Eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind are each to be directly known. 12-17. Visible objects, sounds, odors, flavors, tangible objects, ideas are each to be directly known. 18-23. Eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness, mind consciousness are to be directly known (each). 24-29. Eye contact, ear contact, nose contact, tongue contact, body contact, mind contact are to be directly known (each). 30-35. Eye-contact-born feeling, ear-contact-born feeling, nose-contact- born feeling, tongue-contact-born feeling, body-contact-born feeling, mind-contact- born feeling are to be directly known (each). 36-41. Perception of visible objects, perception of sounds, perception of odors, perception of flavors, perception of tangible objects, perception of ideas are to be directly known (each). 42-47. Volition about visible objects, volition about sounds, volition about odors, volition about flavors, volition about tangible objects, volition about ideas are to be directly known (each). 48-53. Craving for visible objects, craving for sounds, craving for odors, craving for flavors, craving for tangible objects, craving for ideas are to be directly known (each). 54-59. Applied-thought about visible objects, applied-thought about sounds, applied-thought about odors, applied-thought about flavors, applied-thought about tangible objects, applied-thought about ideas are to be directly known (each). 60-65. Sustained thought about visible objects, sustained thought about sounds, sustained thought about odors, sustained thought about flavors, sustained thought about tangible objects, sustained thought about ideas are to be directly known (each). 66-71. The earth property(dhatu) is to be directly known, the water property..., the fire property..., the air property..., the space (akasa) property..., the consciousness property(vinnana dhatu) is to be directly known. [6 dhatus] 72-81. The earth kasina is to be directly known, the water kasina is to be directly known, ..., the consciousness kasina is to be directly known. [10 kasinas] 82-113. Head hair is to be directly known, body-hair ..., teeth ..., ... ...urine ..., brain is to be directly known. [32 body parts] 114-125. The eye base(ayatana = sensing medium)) is to be directly known, the visible-object base ..., the ear base ..., the sound base ..., the node base ..., ... ... the mind base ..., the idea base is to be directly known. [12 bases] 126-143. The eye property is to be directly known, the visible-object property ..., ... ..., the mind property ..., the idea property ..., the mind consciousness property is to be directly known. [18 dhatus] 144-165. The eye faculty(indriya) is to be directly known, the ear faculty ..., the nose faculty ...,the tongue faculty ..., the body faculty ...,the mind faculty ...,the life faculty ..., the femininity faculty ..., the masculinity faculty..., ... ..., the faith faculty ..., the energy faculty ..., the mindfulness faculty ..., the concentration faculty ..., the understanding faculty ..., .... the final-knowledge faculty ..., the final-knower faculty is to be directly known. [22 indriyas] 166-168. The sensual desire property(kama-dhatu) is to be directly known, the material property(rupa-dhatu) ..., the immaterial property (arupa-dhatu) is to be directly known. [3 dhatus] 169-177. Sensual-desire being(kaama-bhava) is to be directly known, material being(ruupa-bhava) ... percipient being()sa~n~nin-hava ... ... [9 bhavas]. 178-181. The first jhana is to be directly known, the second jhana ..., the third jhana ..., the fourth jhana is to be directly known [4 ruupa- jhanas]. 182-185. The heart-deliverance(ceto-vimutti) of lovingkindness is to be directly known, the heart-deliverance of compassion ..., the heart deliverance of sympathetic gladness ..., the heart-deliverance of equanimity is to be directly known. [4 ceto-vimutti] 186-189. The attainment of the base consisting of boundless space (aakaasaana~ncaayatana) is to be directly known, the attainment of the base consisting of boundless consciousness ..., the base consisting of nothingness ..., the base consisting of neither perception nor non- perception is to be directly known. [4 aruupa-jhanas] 190-201. Ignorance is to be directly known, formations ..., consciousness ..., mentality-materiality ..., the six-fold Base ..., contact ..., feeling ..., craving ..., clinging ..., being ..., birth ..., ageing-and-death is to be directly known. [the 12 links of Dependent Origination]. The Pali for the 201 Things ---------------------------- 66-71.pathavi dhaatu, aapo dhaatu, tejo dhaatu, vaayo dhaatu, aakaasa dhaatu, vinnaana dhaatu. 72-81.pathavi kasina, aapo kasina, tejo kasina, vaayo kasina, niila kasina, piita kasina, lohita kasina, odaata kasina, aakaasa kasina, vinnaana kasina. 82-113. kesaa, lomaa, nakhaa, dantaa, taco,mamsa, nhaaru, atthii, atthiminja, vakka, hadaya, yakana, kilomaka,pihaka, papphaasa, anta, antaguna, udariya, kariisa, matthalunga, pitta, semha, pubba, lohita, seda, meda, assu, vasaa, khela, singhaanika, lasikaa, mutta. 114-125.cakkhaayatana, ruupaayatana, sotaayatana, saddaayatana, ghaanaayatana, gandhaayatana, jivhaayatana, rasaayatana, kaayaayatana, photthabbaayatana, manaayatana, dhammaayatana, 126-143. cakkhu dhaatu, ruupa dhaatu, cakkhuvinnaana dhaatu, sota dhaatu, sadda dhaatu, sotavinnaana dhaatu, ghaana dhaatu, gandha dhaatu, ghaanavinnaana dhaatu, jivhaa dhaatu, rasa dhaatu, jivhaavinnaana dhaatu, kaayaa dhaatu, photthabba dhaatu, kaayavinnaana dhaatu, mano dhaatu, dhamma dhaatu, manovinnaana dhaatu. 144-165. cakkhundriya, sotindriya, ghaanindriya, jivhindriya, kaayindriya, manindriya, jivitindriya, itthindriya, purisindriya, sukhindriya, dukkhindriya, somanassindriya, domanassindriya, upekkhindriya, saddhindriya, viiriyindriya, satindriya, samaadhindriya, pannindriya, anannaatannassaamiitindriya, annindriya, annaataavindriya. 166-168. kaama dhaatu, ruupa dhaatu, aruupa dhaatu. 169-177. kaamabhava, ruupabhava, aruupabhava, sannaabhava, asannaabhava, neva-sannaa-naa-sannaa-bhava, ekavokaarabhava, catuvokaarabhava, pancavokaarabhava. 178-181. The first jhaana, the second jhaana, the third jhaana, the fourth jhaana. 182-185. mettaa-ceto-vimutti, karunaa-ceto-vimutti, muditaa-ceto-vimutti, upekkhaa-ceto-vimutti. 186-189. aakaasaanancaayatana-samaapatti, vinnaanincaayatana-samaapatti, aakincannaayatana-samaapatti, neva-sannaa-naa-sannaayatana-samaapatti. 190-201. avijjaa, sankhaara, vinnana, naama-ruupa, salaayatana, phassa, vedanaa, tanhaa, upaadaana, bhava, jaati, jaraa-marana. .......................... Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > > T: If you want an even bigger picture, then not only the All but > also > > the 201 dhammas as stated in the Patisambhidamagga as well. > > ------------------------ > > To my understanding, the 201 dhammas as stated in the > Patisambhidamagga would all be included in the All of the suttas. > > Jon > #89040 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the Relevance of the Abhidhamma. nilovg Hi Herman, thanks. I pass it on, but Lodewijk is not inclined to debate. He is also very involved with his memoires, a lot of work. Also he still helps me each day with my Conditions, looking where I should clarify more, avoiding pedestrian English (my weak point!!). In short, we are both working hard, in separate rooms, each at our own computer. I bet you get a mental picture now, and that is thinking. Thinking of stories. Different from being mindful of one dhamma through one doorway at a time. Yes, no selection (thanks for your post), it does not matter whatever appears, nobody can change it. Be it thinking of stories, good. Nina. Op 13-aug-2008, om 13:27 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Please pass this on to Lodewijk if you are inclined. Please tell him > I'm not posting this for the sake of arguing. #89042 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, self-deceit. nilovg Hi Herman, Op 13-aug-2008, om 15:21 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Do you > allow for the possibility of lying to yourself? I think it happens all > the time, but I think the Abhidhamma cannot explain this most > fundamental of human behaviours. Do you think self-deceit is possible > in the Abhidhamma? ------- N: Interesting remark, Herman. The whole of the Abhidhamma helps us to know ourselves, our vices and failures, with the teaching in detail of all cittas and cetasikas, all defilements. What one used to take for noble behaviour is not so noble. There is clinging, and conceit. Even kusala can condition conceit and clinging. Reading about this is not enough, through the development of satipatthana one will know the truth about oneself. In the Intro to the Book of Analysis (second Book of the Abhidhamma), Iggleden writes: I would add: first of all we have to learn that all these defilements are conditioned elements, not mine or self. Nina. #89043 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Hi Alex, Op 13-aug-2008, om 17:47 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > he develops samatha and > > vipassana with the subject of breathing, the most difficult > >subject > > Then why did the Buddha taught it so often? It becomes difficult > because of ancient mistake in VsM about Kasina meditation and all the > nimitta signs that "have to appear" prior to Jhana. ------ N: No intention to be in debate. As I understand kasinas are meditation subjects also of the jhanacitta itself. I do not see any mistake here. But perhaps others will answer. Nina. #89044 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dogmatism. Focussing on Anything is Wrong? indriyabala Hello Howard (Alex, and others), - Thank you for delighting me with your delightful explanation about what vitaka & vicara in 'satipatthana bhavana' means in regards to directed meditation. I also concur with you that indirected meditation, as also described in SN 47.10, refers to the second jhana where there is no vitaka & vicara. The role of the 1st and 2nd jhanas in 'satipatthana bhavana' is also clearly expounded in MN 125: Dantabhumi Sutta. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima3/125-dantabhumi-e.html Tep ==== #89045 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:23 pm Subject: Re: Anapana & Kasinas truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Alex, > Op 13-aug-2008, om 17:47 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > > he develops samatha and > > > vipassana with the subject of breathing, the most difficult > > >subject > > > > Then why did the Buddha taught it so often? It becomes difficult > > because of ancient mistake in VsM about Kasina meditation and all >>the nimitta signs that "have to appear" prior to Jhana. > ------ > N: No intention to be in debate. As I understand kasinas are > meditation subjects also of the jhanacitta itself. I do not see any >mistake here. But perhaps others will answer. > Nina. I disagree with the "breath being most difficult" part. I think that the difficulty is this: VsM takes it as a kasina meditation, rather than as is written in the suttas. What happens with the Kasinas is the more concentrated you are, the more vivid the learning & counterpart parts become. With anapanasati, the more concentrated you are the LESS breathing you percieve, and if properly done - one will not encounted any learning or counterpart signs with the breath. Maybe this is why some mistakenly believe that anapanasati is so difficult... Unfortunately those people have often more "authority" than Buddha himself... Best wishes, Alex #89046 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:46 pm Subject: Re: Sila Always Comes First ! indriyabala Dear Scott (and Jon + others who are interested), - I have a thought after reading your message : >Scott: As she walked away from the line-up toward the vehicle which was slowly edging out of the parking lot, with her half-waving and rather hesitant approach, the impulse arose in me to maybe go and get the driver's attention myself. This impulse didn't produce movement, however. ... ... It's hard to say what the impulse was. Was the impulse to help kusala? Was it akusala? Did the fact that it did not lead to action suggest anything about the nature of the impulse - perhaps that kusala was not developed enough to lead to action? Did sati arise and were the senses guarded? Was this not my affair? Or was it, as some might argue, just an example of an unkind and selfish man doing nothing when there was a damsel in distress? I don't find this as cut and dried as some make out. T: It is a basic teaching of the Buddha that kamma(an action: bodily, verbal, or mental) is always conditioned by cetana (intention) [see AN 6.63]. Without an intention, there is no action. The impulse was a thought that had been conditioned by a weak kusala cetana (intending to help). If it was a strong kusala cetana that was supported by energy/effort to run toward the driver and shout at him to get his attention, then it would have produced the intended result. Just a 2-cent thought, though. Tep === #89047 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:25 pm Subject: Re: kayagatasati .. Relentless Training ... indriyabala Hi Jon, - Is replying to a member's post something you have to do because of the sense of duty (of a moderator), or do you really enjoy Dhamma discussion and learn from other members? > T: Effort may be right (samma) or wrong (miccha); never heard of > conventional effort. Jon: Right and wrong effort in the teachings refer to the mental factor of viraya that is present in all kusala and akusala cittas. Effort as used in every-day speech ("conventional effort") means the idea of striving to do something, use of willpower, etc. ............... T: So you mean the conventional effort of every-day living does not involve kusala or akusala cittas? BTW can kusala effort arise in a "conventional" non-ariyan who develops sila (e.g. abandons wrong speech and maintains right speech)? ............... > T: An intention or motivation to have more kusala is necessary, > otherwise how can you be mindful in developing kusala? Jon: As I explained in a recent post to Alex, - kusala can and does arise without there being any specific intention that it should do so, i.e., spontaneously, and - at times of its (spontaneous) arising, an appreciation of the value of those moments as kusala worthy of development will condition its further development. T: Can a kusala kamma arise without an intention? Specifically, do you deny what the Buddha taught in AN 6.63? "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html Tep === #89048 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:17 pm Subject: Re: Sila Always Comes First ! scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "I have a thought after reading your message...It is a basic teaching of the Buddha that kamma(an action: bodily, verbal, or mental) is always conditioned by cetana (intention) [see AN 6.63]. Without an intention, there is no action." Scott: The Abhidhamma clarifies that each moment of consciousness is accompanied by cetanaa; although this has been discussed a lot here. The cetanaa that accompanied the citta was only of the strength to remain a 'mental action' it would seem, as you say below. By 'no action' I'm assuming you mean no actual conditioning of ruupa to produce directed bodily movement. Mental 'action' or kamma must be a reality. Many moments followed on from that initial one, which impulse, I recall, arose a time or two, followed by a thought: 'None of my business, really' - akusala, perhaps, since kusala can be condition for akusala. T: "The impulse was a thought that had been conditioned by a weak kusala cetana (intending to help). If it was a strong kusala cetana that was supported by energy/effort to run toward the driver and shout at him to get his attention, then it would have produced the intended result." Scott: Yes, the impulse was a thought. It would have arisen relatively long after the moment of kusala (given that that is what it was) had arisen. Viriya and padhaana are naama. The strength of the kusala citta would have had to depend on the combined strength of the accompanying mental factors in order to have conditioned ruupa in the form of the continued movement of the body in a concerted sequence of gestures. If the impulse was kusala, then it would seem that, since no action resulted, the kusala was, as you say, too weak. Sincerely, Scott. #89049 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:21 pm Subject: Re: Sila Always Comes First ! indriyabala Dear Jon, - I am trying to catch up with your several posts ! Jon: Thanks for the sutta quote. I'm not sure what you mean when by "the sequential Sila-Samadhi-Pa~n~na development". T: So you think it was my misguided imagination? No, it wasn't Tep's imagination, Jon. The sequential development is stated in the quoted sutta : AN VI, 50: "If there is no virtue, then the basis for right concentration is destroyed for one who lacks virtue. If there is no concentration, then the basis for knowledge and vision of things as they really are is destroyed for one who lacks concentration." I do not know how to explain a plain-and-simple sutta like this one. ............................................ Jon: I would agree that those factors represent ascending levels of kusala, and that the development of each is dependent (among other things) on the development of those of the previous level(s). Furthermore, they become perfected in that order (sila by the sotapanna, samadhi by the anagami, panna by the arahant). T: The last sentence of yours does not contradict with "the sequential Sila-Samadhi-Pa~n~na development". You become a sotapanna first when your sila is pure. You then become an anagami when your concentration becomes "perfected". Lastly, you become an arahant when your panna is fully developed. I do not see any problem with the sequential development. Tep === #89050 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:35 pm Subject: Re: [Focussing on Anything is Wrong?]... concentration.. indriyabala Dear Connie, - I appreciate it very much whenever you give me more clues: Dear Tep, Pardon my speaking in haste in my irritation. Yes, I did earlier say I had problems with TB's version as well as the other one. peace, connie T: I understand, Connie. Tep === #89051 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:16 pm Subject: Re: An Observation of This Panel indriyabala Dear Rinze, - You explained very well. Please allow me to ask further questions one more time. R: Of course when one confronts reality, thoughts are bound to arise, connected with what was just 'seen'. This is wisdom or Panna. But one should not continue to 'think'. Samatha and Vipassana should be evenly balanced, .. T: So, the only way to stop thinking is when samatha is balanced with vipassana? ................ R: Apart from Nibbana, everything else is conceived in terms of consciousness, mental states and matter, ie, vinnana, nama and rupa. T: Interesting! Why is consciousness not a nama? ................ R: Fundamentally, there are three modes of determining things, (1) Cittasankhara, that's Perception & Feeling. One perceives, either rightly or wrongly, and expresses them through, (2) Vacisankhara, Vitakka & Vicara, speech or (3) Kayasankara, In & Out breathing, bodily expressions. They correspond to the three modes of action, (1) Thought, (2) Word and (3) Deed. T: So, when in-and-out breathing stops during 'anapanasati bhavana', there is no thinking then, right? ................ R: The views that we express fall into one of these three modes of actions. The root cause is Perception which leads to Thinking. That is how thinking and thought relate to all views. T: So, to really stop wrong views right now, do you have to cease perception first? ................. R: One effectively stops thinking in the state of Nibbana, cessation of perception and feeling. The state prior to Nibbana is a state of neither perception nor non-perception. > > Do arahants not think at all? R: They do. But their thoughts doesn't constitute Kamma. T: We know that a living arahant has no lobha, dosa or moha. The cessation of lobha, dosa and moha is known as 'Nibbana'. Thus it follows that Nibbana is the mental state of arahants, does it not? If the answer is 'yes', then it should also follow that arahants do not think at all, which is the same as the cessation of perception according to what you have said. But am I contradicting to your reply above that arahants think ? Please do not be irritated by the questions I asked. Well, I don't know how to answer them myself. Tep === #89052 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:55 pm Subject: Re: One-pointedness in Sattipatthana SN 47. 4 (4) at Sala truth_aerator Dear Howard, Tep, Jon & Sarah > Alex, as regards contemplating "the X in the X," in several suttas >pertaining to the four foundations of mindfulness, I think the >point >there is to attend to the actual sense-door phenomena that >arise as >opposed to an amalgam of them thought of as a >single "thing". (So, to >observe a pain sensation or an itch or a >sight or boredom or whatever, per se, as opposed to "oneself" as >hurting or being uncomfortable or seeing or being bored etc.) But >I don't think it refers to laser-beam concentration, if that's >what you had in mind. In Sattipathana samyutta 4 (4) At Sala sutta, the Buddha has said: "dwell contemplating the bodyin the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, unified, with limpid mind, concentrated, with one- pointed mind, in order to know the body as it really is"... pg 1630 CDB . So even though you are correct about not having any self view, one pointedness, unified & concentrated mind IS NEEDED. Best wishes, Alex #89053 From: Sukinder Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta sukinderpal Hi Ken, (Howard, Jon, Herman and Nina), Thanks for your input, always good to read them. ============= > Thanks for your discussion of this extraordinary and difficult to > understand sutta. (Aren't they all?) Yes I think so, and we should all keep in mind even if we were somehow fluent in Pali and therefore read the original sutta seamlessly. The real difficulty being the depth of the message and we would do well not to jump at any first or even second or third impressions. The need for much “hearing”, this after all, is not in order that we remember the Texts or acquire any other linguistic skill in connection, but to accumulate by sankhara, drop by drop, ‘understanding’ of the truth in “experience”. The real danger is when we fail this, and this includes those instances when we are inclined to take the Suttas at face value, in which case Wrong View becomes accumulated and we then become even harder to “instruct”. :-/ ============= > If I am following correctly, > Ananda said to the Bhikkhunni something along the lines > of, "Motivated by craving [for arahantship] and conceited [with the > thought of being an arahant] I sought wise companionship and heard > the true Dhamma. Therefore, in my case, those forms of misconduct > turned out to be [natural decisive support] condition for bhavana. I did vaguely recall the official interpretation and even read an old post by Sarah. However when it occurred to me to compare craving and conceit with the other papanca dhamma namely wrong view, I decided to express a more liberal interpretation. :-) ============= > Sexual misconduct, however, can never be a condition for bhavana." I like the way you put it. But I’m thinking about sexual misconduct having a different ‘object’, whereas craving and conceit *can* accompany thoughts about the Dhamma. And which is worse in the long run, sexual misconduct or the craving which accompanies wrong interpretation of the Dhamma, or even the conceit which may immediately follow this?.... ============= > That would seem reasonable to me. As we all agree, we shouldn't > *worry* that our motives for listening to, and discussing, the Dhamma > may include craving and conceit. We shouldn't wait before opening a > Dhamma book, or before posting a message to DSG, until we can be > *sure* there is no craving for results or rewards. Otherwise we would > be waiting forever. Being uninstructed worldlings, we simply don't > know our own motives that well. More likely such thought would itself be motivated by craving, one which imo, would reflect that any understanding of the craving associated with ‘Dhamma Study’ must have been quite superficial to begin with. So I think, at any time what is of greatest value is “Right Understanding”. Whether we waver or not, still the need will always be to develop more understanding of whatever arises. In this regard I think it is good to be reminded about those akusala dhammas which are as yet hardly noticeable such that there can be some “right reflection” on it. I liked very much what I read just now by Nina in response to Howard: “I agree, a drop of common sense won't do harm. Remember, a moment of awareness is o so brief and comes in between a lot of thinking of people and circumstances. That thinking is not to be avoided, it is natural. So there is no danger of moving away from worldly life. Parents will take care of their children, they may even be more careful, not negligent, less thinking of their own pleasures, when satipatthaana is developed in daily life.” I think the same idea applies here. Any little understanding of craving and conceit which may arise in between thoughts about Dhamma, far from stopping one from going ahead with the intended activity, it in fact *adds* to the possibility of right understanding arising subsequently. However rather than this, for some it is ‘wrong understanding’ of these two dhammas which seem to arise and what then follows would by the same principle, be encouraging of more wrong understanding. ============== > If, however, our akusala motives amounted to akusala kammapatha > (breach of the precepts) then we *would* know that akusala was > involved and, therefore, we should not follow those inclinations. If, > for example, we had to kill someone in order to get the last taxi to > a discussion meeting we would do better (needless to say) not to > attend the meeting at all. Yes, and we would be a disgrace to the company, -Dhamma Limited-. ;-) ============== > Even more obviously, if our akusala motives were directed, not at > hearing, discussing and applying the Dhamma, but at having illicit > sex, or at performing anti-Dhamma rituals (and the like), then by no > means should they be acted upon. By no means could they become > conditions for bhavana. On the other hand, ‘illicit sex’ is seen as harmful even by those who otherwise continue to engage in rite and ritual in the name of Dhamma practice. This is why I like to come back to talking about the danger of Wrong View. Kusala quite easily becomes the object of wrong view for most people. We note the need to be without certain forms of akusala but are blind to ‘self view’ which often immediately follows. This brings along its retinue of akusala dhammas, including the ‘tendency to rite and ritual’, which in turn is very attractive to tanha and hence ends up leading most people astray. :-/ ============== > Hmm, now that I have spelt it out, my interpretation does seem a bit > rough-and-ready. If it completely misses the mark please say so. I don’t think that your interpretation is much different if at all, from the official one. On the other hand, I am freely interpreting key concepts based on my own agenda and therefore not really saying what the Sutta as a whole is saying. ;-) In a rush, must go now. Nice talking to you Ken. Metta, Sukin #89054 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:19 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 291-293 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 291-293 Intro: In the following sections the Vis. elaborates on cause and fruit and gives different aspects. Ignorance and formations (sa”nkhaara: kusala kamma and akusala kamma) are two causes, but also the links of the Dependent Origination which are craving, clinging and kamma-process becoming are reckoned as cause. The accumulation of kamma (aayuuhana) is further elaborated on. ------------------- Text Vis. 291: 3. Then: (a) There were five causes in the past, (b) And now there is a fivefold fruit; (c) There are five causes now as well, (d) And in the future fivefold fruit. It is according to these twenty spokes called 'qualities' that the words 'its spokes are twenty qualities' should be understood. --------- N: When adding up five causes in the past, fivefold fruit now, five causes now and fivefold fruit in the future, there are twenty qualities or spokes of the Wheel of Becoming. ---------- Text Vis. 292: (a) Herein, [as regards the words] 'There were five causes in the past', firstly only these two, namely, ignorance and formations, are mentioned. But one who is ignorant hankers, and hankering, clings, and with his clinging as condition there is becoming; -------- N: The Pali text has paritassati, to be excited (here translated as hankering). The Tiika explains that this is with regard to whatever object he gets hold of, meaning, craving for that object. As to clinging, the Tiika comments: grasping strongly. ------- Text Vis.: therefore craving, clinging and becoming are included as well. Hence it is said: 'In the previous kamma-process becoming, there is delusion, which is 'ignorance'; there is accumulation, which is 'formations'; there is attachment, which is 'craving'; there is embracing, which is 'clinging'; there is volition, which is 'becoming; thus these five things in the previous kamma-process becoming are conditions for rebirth-linking here [in the present becoming]' (Ps.i,52). ------- N: Here becoming, bhava, is used in the sense of kamma-process becoming (kamma-bhava), not in the sense of rebirth-process becoming (upatti-bhava) which is vipaaka. ----------- Text Vis.293: Herein, 'In the previous kamma-process becoming' means in kamma-process becoming done in the previous birth. 'There is delusion, which is ignorance' means that the delusion that there then was about suffering, etc., deluded whereby the man did the kamma, was ignorance. ------- N: The Tiika states that delusion that is unabandoned (appahiino) conceals the danger of dukkha etc. Conditioned realities that arise and fall away are dukkha. Birth is dukkha, but ignorance conceals the danger of birth. The cause of dukkha is craving, and ignorance conceals its danger. So long as one does not see the danger of dukkha and its cause, one will not be inclined to develop the Path leading to the ceasing of dukkha. --------- Text Vis.: 'There is accumulation, which is formations' means the prior volitions arisen in one who prepares the things necessary for a gift during a month, perhaps, or a year after he has had the thought 'I shall give a gift'. But it is the volitions of one who is actually placing the offerings in the recipients' hands that are called 'becoming'. ---------- N: The Pali for accumulation is here: aayuuhana, meaning accumulation of kamma. The Tiika states that it is connected here with the act of giving. One may think of giving, but the actual deed is the accumulation of kamma that can produce result. --------- Text Vis.: Or alternatively, it is the volition that is accumulation in six of the impulsions of a single adverting that is called 'formations', and the seventh volition is called 'becoming'. Or any kind of volition is called 'becoming' and the accumulations associated therewith are called 'formations'. -------- N: In one process of citta there are usually seven javanacittas succeeding one another, which are, in the case of non-arahats, akusala cittas or kusala cittas. The volitions accompanying the first six javanacittas can be called ‘formations’, sa”nkhaara, and the volition accompanying the seventh javanacitta can be called bhava, becoming (kamma-process becoming). Sa”nkhaara means combining or conditioning. Or else each of the volitions accompanying the seven javanacittas can be called bhava, becoming, and the accumulations, aayuhanaa, associated with these volitions can be called sa”nkhaara. ---------- Text Vis.: 'There is attachment, which is craving' means that in one performing kamma whatever attachment there is and aspiration for its fruit as rebirth-process becoming is craving. 'There is embracing, which is clinging' means that the embracing, the grasping, the adherence, which is a condition for kamma-process becoming and occurs thus, 'By doing this I shall preserve, or I shall cut off, sense desire in such and such a place', is called clinging. ------- N: Further on the Tiika explains that in accordance with the Suttanta text that he aspires for a long life like the devas who are the four great Kings (catumahaaraajika-deavs, the lowest class), who are beautiful, and have much happiness. ----------- Text Vis. 'There is volition, which is becoming' means the kind of volition stated already at the end of the [sentence dealing with] accumulation is becoming. This is how the meaning should be understood. -------- Conclusion: Aayuhanaa refers to the accumulation of kamma, cetana cetasika. Accumulating (aayuuhana.m) is the adding together or heaping up of its associated phenomena in accordance with its own function. Vism.XIV,131: The Tiika to this para: ' "The characteristic of agglomerating" means the characteristic of adding together (sampi.n.dana); then they are said to have the function of accumulating, for the dhammas in the formations aggregate are so described because volition is their basis' (Pm.484).> The volition that motivated a good or a bad deed in the past is accumulated from one moment of citta to the next citta, from life to life. It can produce result in the form of rebirth-consciousness, later on, even after aeons. There is no person that has power over his rebirth. We should note Vis. XIX, 19, stating that there is no doer apart from kamma and its result: Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:29 am Subject: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream abhidhammika Dear Dhamma friends How are you? Here is another posting of a rare remarkable experience in my dream. with regards, Suan Lu Zaw --- In BuddhistWellnessGroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: Dear Dr Des, Regine Wong, Bo Khin Maung, Achema and all How are you? It was a Tuesday night (or Wednesday morning 13- 8 – 08). I was following Beijing 2008 Olympic events till late. I must add, though, that I was sick with sneezing and coughing in Canberra winter. So, I used the situation for vipassanaa meditation during the day and before I went to bed. I may have Olympic events in my dream as a continuation of watching them till late. And, then, sudden insight happened in my dream. The normal flow of events was suspended. The sensation was unimaginable. And, soon after this sudden insight, I woke up, and discovered that sneezing has dried up. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- End forwarded message --- #89056 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? - THERE IS SUCH A METHOD!!! sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- On Wed, 13/8/08, Tep Sastri wrote: >Now let's move on to Focussing (part 2). ............ ....... >>Sarah (#88961): More on 'focussing'. ...(part 2)<....> >>S: In conclusion, I think it is right understanding (supported by the other path factors) of dhammas (realities) that is stressed as being the way, rather than any focussing on any selected objects. ............ ......... ......... ...... >T: I'd like to formally note that in your older message 88426 you defined "understanding" differently from the above. [#88246] <...> > >S: I see the path as the same from the very beginning. From the outset, it has to be the growth of understanding of present dhammas appearing. This is the same for the ariyans - in their case far deeper and more precisely, without any wrong view in between, of course. For the Buddha too, it was the same dhammas such as seeing and visible object that were fully penetrated, again with far greater wisdom than in the case of other ariyana disciples. .... S: I don't see any inconsistency or 'flip-flopping' as you put it. .... >T: Further, your understanding of "understanding" is far different from your own quote of the Dispeller in the older message #80913. > N: I find that Sarah's quote of the Dispeller expresses what I feel > about it: on are all synonyms for understanding……………..it conforms to the > Truth of the Path and it conforms owing to conforming to the > highest meaning, nibbaana. And it accepts (khamati), bears, is able > to see all these reasons, thus it is > acceptance (khanti). `It sees' is di.t.thi (`view')……….and in > particular, the things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being > studied (nijjjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with > impermanence, suffering and no self, accept (khamanti) that study > (nijjhaana); thus it > is dhammanijjhaanakkha nti (`acceptance of study things')." The five khandhas: all conditioned nama and rupa. Before the three characteristics can be realized, they have to be seen as mere dhammas, not a person. ------- S: Again, no inconsistency as I see it. Different levels of right understanding - see the last comment. .... >T: Clearly, that is "understanding" that belongs to trainers (sekha) who have right view. .... S: Again, how does the understanding develop to sekha-level if not by beginning to understand namas and rupas now, such as seeing and visible object as dhammas, not atta? Metta, Sarah ======== #89057 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:57 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Tens, Ch VIII, § 3) about ten things which are helpful to obtain ten desirable aims: “Energy and exertion are helps to getting wealth. Finery and adornment are helps to beauty. Seasonable action is a help to health. A lovely friendship is a help to virtues. Restraint of the sense- faculties is a help to the Brahma-life. Not quarreling is a help to friendship. Repetition is a help to much knowledge. Lending an ear and asking questions are helps to wisdom. Study and examination are helps to dhammas. Right faring is a help to the heaven worlds. These are the ten helps to these ten things which are desirable, dear, charming, hard to win in the world. “ We see that listening and asking questions are important for the development of wisdom. In the same sutta it is said: “Not to lend an ear and ask questions is an obstacle to wisdom”. Study and examination are helps to dhammas. The commentary to this sutta, the “Manorathapúraní” adds that by “dhammas’ is meant the nine lokuttara dhammas, namely the eight lokuttara cittas and nibbåna. If one continues to study the realities that appear, paññå grows so that eventually enlightenment can be attained. Phra Dhammadhara remarked that we should not cling to an idea of self who is going to practise and will then attain enlightenment quickly. He said: “Then we are stuck with the idea of self. We cannot say, ‘Come on sati, come one paññå”. Are we not sometimes behaving as if we could induce them? Even if sati arises we cannot keep it, it arises and falls away. “It may be followed by excruciating doubt”, Phra Dhammadhara said. Who knows the next moment? Realities arise because of conditions and then fall away. We never know what will happen the next moment. How could we then plan to have sati and how could we plan what to be aware of? ****** Nina. #89058 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? - Super mindfulness ... sarahprocter... Dear Tep, I think there may have been some misunderstandings of each others' meanings. I apologise for any misunderstanding of yours. --- On Wed, 13/8/08, Tep Sastri wrote: T:>I think in message # 88960 you are contradicting yourself, or being inconsistent, with your earlier message 88625, i.e. when you said that mindfulness could be developed by anyone with intellectual understanding. .... S: I think we can be more precise and say that when there is the *right* intellectual understanding of dhammas appearing now, this is the condition for right understanding of realities to develop. ... >T: Why should anyone be concerned with the developing of the ariyans' "right understanding" while studying Biology, for example? .... S: I think there's a mis-understanding here.... this wasn't what I was saying/meaning... ... >S (continuing. .): The point is, however, that sati (which can only arise with sobhana cittas) can begin to develop at such times, naturally, when there are the right conditions. T: The flip-flopping confuses me badly! I do not see why sati "can only arise with sobhana cittas". Don't you have sati even when you are reading a book, writing a letter, or cooking a food? .... S: Yes, there can be sati when reading a book, writing a letter or cooking food, but only arising with sobhana (beautiful) cittas. For example, at moments of lobha, dosa or moha, there cannot be any sati, can there? ..... T:> If mindfulness can only arise with sobhana cittas, then you will never be mindful on reading or writing or cooking, etc. Then you will never ever understand the content of the book you read; you will not write coherently; you will end up with a food that nobody can eat. .... S: This is a misunderstanding. Like now, there can be many sobhana cittas accompanied by sati. For example, if there is wise reflection of dhammas or awareness now, even as we write and read, there has to be sati. Like I've been discussing with Alex, cittas are so fast, panna and sati can slip in so quickly, anytime, any place. This is why we read about people becoming enlightened whilst listening to the Buddha, cooking food or even dying. Thanks for all your prompt replies which help me to reflect further, Tep. Metta, Sarah =========== #89059 From: "rinzeee" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:40 am Subject: Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 3. rinzeee --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Should one prepare for vipassanå? Should one sit in a quiet place in > order to become calm first, before one can study the nåmas and rúpas > which appear? R: Nina, I wonder why this should be such an issue, when Lord Buddha has, more often than not, advised the bhikkus - . "What can be done for his disciples by a Master who seeks their welfare and has compassion and pity on them, that I have done for you, …… There are these roots of trees, there are empty places. Meditate, ……, do not delay, lest you later regret it. 'This is my message to you." And further "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out……" And the Lord Buddha himself, in one `sitting' exerted himself …. "In search of what might be skillful, seeking the unexcelled state of sublime peace, I wandered by stages in the Magadhan country and came to the military town of Uruvela. There I saw some delightful countryside, with an inspiring forest grove, a clear-flowing river with fine, delightful banks, and villages for alms-going on all sides. The thought occurred to me: 'How delightful is this countryside, with its inspiring forest grove, clear-flowing river with fine, delightful banks, and villages for alms-going on all sides. This is just right for the exertion of a clansman intent on exertion.' So I sat down right there, thinking, 'This is just right for exertion.' "Then, monks, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject myself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, I reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.' Can you explain why Lord Buddha set aside a time and place to meditate himself, let alone leaving his family? Why couldn't He see that, "Awareness and understanding can and should be developed in daily life", perhaps he need not have left his family then, need he? Can you explain why Lord Buddha "in selecting a specific moment or time or a delightful country side, with awe inspiring forest groves etc", didn't see his self intervene, and still realized the Dhamma! With all the Parami behind Him, if He considered that that is the way, having recollected Himself doing it, when He was a small boy, while His father was working on the paddy field, then, what more can be said of us! How could we see such Paramatha Dhammas while going about our daily life, without training our minds in some special way! May all be Happy Rinze #89060 From: "rinzeee" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:53 am Subject: Re: An Observation of This Panel rinzeee --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Rinze, - > You explained very well. Please allow me to ask further questions one more time. > R: Of course when one confronts reality, thoughts are bound to >arise, connected with what was just 'seen'. This is wisdom or Panna. >But one should not continue to 'think'. Samatha and Vipassana should >be evenly balanced, .. > T: So, the only way to stop thinking is when samatha is balanced with vipassana? R: When samatha is balanced with vipassana, Panna is developed. Only way to stop thinking is when Nibbana is attained. > R: Apart from Nibbana, everything else is conceived in terms of > consciousness, mental states and matter, ie, vinnana, nama and rupa. > T: Interesting! Why is consciousness not a nama? R: Nama is an object OF consciousness, but consciousness cannot do that function. Vinnana paccaya nama-rupa, nama-rupa paccaya vinnana. Consciousness and nama are clearly differentiated here. > R: Fundamentally, there are three modes of determining things, (1) > Cittasankhara, that's Perception & Feeling. One perceives, either > rightly or wrongly, and expresses them through, (2) Vacisankhara, > Vitakka & Vicara, speech or (3) Kayasankara, In & Out breathing, > bodily expressions. They correspond to the three modes of action, (1)Thought, (2) Word and (3) Deed. > > T: So, when in-and-out breathing stops during 'anapanasati bhavana', > there is no thinking then, right? R: No. There can be thinking. > R: The views that we express fall into one of these three modes of > actions. The root cause is Perception which leads to Thinking. That is how thinking and thought relate to all views. > > T: So, to really stop wrong views right now, do you have to cease > perception first? R: Not necessarily. The 8-fold path begins with Right View or Right Understanding (which ever term you are familiar with). This right view would counteract wrong views right now. But the uprooting of wrong view or some part thereof, is through cessation of perception and feeling in 4 stages. > R: One effectively stops thinking in the state of Nibbana, cessation > of perception and feeling. The state prior to Nibbana is a state of > neither perception nor non-perception. > > > > Do arahants not think at all? > > R: They do. But their thoughts doesn't constitute Kamma. > > T: We know that a living arahant has no lobha, dosa or moha. The > cessation of lobha, dosa and moha is known as 'Nibbana'. Thus it > follows that Nibbana is the mental state of arahants, does it not? > > If the answer is 'yes', then it should also follow that arahants do > not think at all, which is the same as the cessation of perception > according to what you have said. But am I contradicting to your reply above that arahants think ? R: The mental state of an Arahant is not Nibbana. Having attained Nibbana, uprooting the fetters, including Ignorance, one is an Arahant. Thereafter, he is known as an Asekha, One beyond training. He could express his views like you and me. Refer Mahagosinga Sutta 32 in MN where Sariputta and Moggallana and 3 others express their views of "what kind of Bhikku would illuminate a Gosinga Sala Tree", On another occasion, refer Dhananjani Sutta 97, Sariputta was admonished by Lord Buddha for having "established the Brahmin Dhananjani in the inferior Brahma world", when on his death bed. Yet another time, refer Catuma Sutta 67, Lord Buddha was displeased over the commotion of some of the Bhikkus led by Sariputta and Moggollana, and He asked the opinion of Sariputta and Moggallana on what they would do if he were to leave the place. Moggallana gave a better answer than Sariputta and was commended by Lord Buddha. Note that even Lord Buddha can be displeased! These instances indicate that the mental state of an Arahant is not Nibbana. But, they could enjoy the `Fruition Consciousness' (phala samapatti), whenever they advert their minds to it, like Lord Buddha, who often abides in `Voidness' whenever he wants. > Please do not be irritated by the questions I asked. Well, I don't > know how to answer them myself. > > Tep > === May all be Happy Rinze #89061 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream upasaka_howard Hi, Suan - In a message dated 8/14/2008 3:29:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Dear Dhamma friends How are you? Here is another posting of a rare remarkable experience in my dream. with regards, Suan Lu Zaw ============================== What a coincidence, if that is what it was. In the early morning hours today, I was in the midst of a dream, a very real-seeming dream. All the sights, sounds, and "characters" were *perfect*. It was an extremely lengthy dream. My wife and I ended up at some place that we were ready to leave from. Our car was parked a bit away, it was raining, and a taxi driver was rather insistent in taking our bag & putting us into his cab. I resisted, grabbed the bag, said we had our own car, and we walked away. Then we kept walking back again and again and again to a certain location, seeing the same sights again and again and again - very "samsaric" - until I realized that this couldn't truly be real. While still dreaming I marveled at how the mind could produce all that so VERY perfectly. So, I wasn't quite sure yet whether I was dreaming or not, but I began to feel terribly trapped. I thought "Well, so long as Rita (my wife) is here!" And then, suddenly, she was gone, no longer holding my hand. Then I knew for sure it was a dream, and I thought "I've got to wake up," and I mentally begged "Please wake me up! Please wake me up!" And I opened my eyes, and I was awake. And my thought was "Yes, awakened, but just to a more stable dream!" With metta, Howard P.S. I've had no lucid dreams since childhood! This is the first. #89062 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:47 am Subject: Re: SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? - THERE IS SUCH A METHOD!!! indriyabala Dear Sarah, - This post is my last conversation with you on the following subjects : understanding, right view, mindfulness, sila, samadhi, panna: virtually, everything concerning the Dhamma. ;-)) I give a reason below. .......................................... S: Again, no inconsistency as I see it. Different levels of right understanding - see the last comment. .... >T: Clearly, that is "understanding" that belongs to trainers (sekha) who have right view. .... S: Again, how does the understanding develop to sekha-level if not by beginning to understand namas and rupas now, such as seeing and visible object as dhammas, not atta? .......................................... T: Again your reply is very consistent. Again I see the same communication dead-end : closed ears, closed eyes, closed mind; "only what I believe is right". How can there be a fruitful discussion at this communication dead-end? Peace, Tep === #89063 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:02 am Subject: Re: An Observation of This Panel indriyabala Dear Rinze, - Thank you so much for the very good reply that exceeded my expectation. I like the following answers; some of them deserve more study. > R: When samatha is balanced with vipassana, Panna is developed. Only > way to stop thinking is when Nibbana is attained. > > R: Nama is an object OF consciousness, but consciousness cannot do > that function. Vinnana paccaya nama-rupa, nama-rupa paccaya vinnana. > Consciousness and nama are clearly differentiated here. > > > T: So, to really stop wrong views right now, do you have to cease > > perception first? > > R: Not necessarily. The 8-fold path begins with Right View or Right > Understanding (which ever term you are familiar with). This right view > would counteract wrong views right now. But the uprooting of wrong > view or some part thereof, is through cessation of perception and > feeling in 4 stages. > > > R: The mental state of an Arahant is not Nibbana. Having attained > Nibbana, uprooting the fetters, including Ignorance, one is an > Arahant. Thereafter, he is known as an Asekha, One beyond training. > > He could express his views like you and me. Refer Mahagosinga Sutta 32 in MN where Sariputta and Moggallana and 3 others express their views of "what kind of Bhikku would illuminate a Gosinga Sala Tree", > > On another occasion, refer Dhananjani Sutta 97, Sariputta was > admonished by Lord Buddha for having "established the Brahmin > Dhananjani in the inferior Brahma world", when on his death bed. > > Yet another time, refer Catuma Sutta 67, Lord Buddha was displeased > over the commotion of some of the Bhikkus led by Sariputta and > Moggollana, and He asked the opinion of Sariputta and Moggallana on > what they would do if he were to leave the place. Moggallana gave a > better answer than Sariputta and was commended by Lord Buddha. > ............. Tep === #89064 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:39 am Subject: Re: An Observation of This Panel nidive Hi Rinzeee, > R: Not necessarily. The 8-fold path begins with Right View or Right > Understanding (which ever term you are familiar with). This right > view would counteract wrong views right now. But the uprooting of > wrong view or some part thereof, is through cessation of perception > and feeling in 4 stages. What do you mean by "uprooting of wrong view is through cessation of perception & feeling in 4 stages"? Do you mean to become a sotapanna, one has to attain the cessation of perception & feeling? Swee Boon #89065 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:20 am Subject: Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream nidive Hi Suan, > I may have Olympic events in my dream as a continuation of watching > them till late. > > And, then, sudden insight happened in my dream. The normal flow of > events was suspended. The sensation was unimaginable. And, soon > after this sudden insight, I woke up, and discovered that sneezing > has dried up. But what exactly did you insighted? That the Beijing Olympics was suspended? Or that your sneezing was suspended? What has got sensation to do with insight? Swee Boon #89066 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear Rinzee, thank you for your post and the sutta quotes. Op 14-aug-2008, om 12:40 heeft rinzeee het volgende geschreven: > "Awareness and understanding can and should be developed in daily > life", perhaps he need not have left his family then, need he? > > Can you explain why Lord Buddha "in selecting a specific moment or > time or a delightful country side, with awe inspiring forest groves > etc", didn't see his self intervene, and still realized the Dhamma! > > With all the Parami behind Him, if He considered that that is the way, > having recollected Himself doing it, when He was a small boy, while > His father was working on the paddy field, then, what more can be said > of us! > > How could we see such Paramatha Dhammas while going about our daily > life, without training our minds in some special way! ------- N: He was the Lord Buddha and was going to be a teacher of devas and men. Also a bhikkhu who develops both samatha and vipassana is in a different situation. But for us, busy laypeople? We are fortunate that we can listen to the Dhamma and develop understanding in our daily lives of all namas and rupas appearing through the six doors, even now while I am writing to you, or for you, while you are reading. Seeing has to be known, visible object has to be known, the all has to be known. Seeing arises now in daily life and in a secluded place, but seeing is always seeing: it experiences what is visible. That is its characteristic. It makes no difference where it arises. Lobha is lobha, it arises in daily life or when sitting under a tree. We have to know these phenomena as just dhammas that are conditioned. Not self. And those who develop samatha in a secluded place also have to know jhanacitta as not self. Nina. #89067 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:16 pm Subject: Re: Dangerous teaching truth_aerator Dear Nina, Tep, Sarah, Jon and all >-- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > We see that listening and asking questions are important for the > development of wisdom. Yes, without studying Buddha's teaching found in suttas, one can't become an Ariya (unless they are Buddha-to-be). > Phra Dhammadhara remarked that we should not cling to an idea of >self who is going to practise and will then attain enlightenment >quickly. He said: "Then we are stuck with the idea of self. I strongly disagree. Prior to stream, there is still clinging to idea of Self. Conceit "I am", lust for rupa/arupa lokas (Jhana) is present even in Anagamis. Stream enterers have not permanently removed kamaraga & vyāpāda. So the only option we have is to work with them and try to use those bad qualities against themselves. Before one is stream enterer there are still lingering doubts, clinging to rites & rituals AND SAKKAYA-DITTHI. To say otherwise would be to be in a very strong denial and lie to others! So what we can do is only to admit the latent tendencies AND USE THEM IN A BUDDHIST WAY TO LET THEM GO. See the infamous Bhikkhuni sutta. Some have called it "hard sutta" and I know why. It goes against the fluffy "do nothing and be enlightened" teaching. As far as the teaching goes, people prior to Stream-Entry, as a general rule, CANNOT "do nothing" . The sakkayditthi is still there, the kamaraga & vyāpāda, cravings & conceit, RESTLESSNESS AND IGNORANCE. You know all this talk prior to Arhatship of: "I can't do anything, I don't do this since this is expression of craving/conceit, and rites & rituals" is an EGO-TRIP, an ego excuse not to follow the Buddha's teaching which IS *hard* work regardless of what anyone tells you. The "I can't do anything" teaching has a very profound psychological effect of being in denial about one's own dark qualities and of "sticking head into sand" sort of thing. Regardless of how much passionate screams about "No self! Stop, thats rites & rituals!" until one is Stream-Enterer, these views still exist in latent form and the only reason they aren't found is due to person's lack of analysis and lack knowing. It is a great way to deal with remorse and anything bad that one has done before, not to mention slowing down one's progress. Similiar with conceit. Until one is Arahat or on the path to it, conceit is STILL PRESENT. To deny it would be to drop into denial, which as I suspect isn't very good, nor is productive. If we look the Buddha's gradual & step by step talk, we will see just how much he spent talking about heaven, sensuality, renunciation and such. > We cannot say, > `Come on sati, come one paññå". Are we not sometimes behaving as if >we could induce them? But we can work on supporting conditions, such as Bhavana. Hopefully no misunderstandings will arise, Best wishes, Alex #89068 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:33 pm Subject: Re: Dangerous teaching indriyabala Dear Alex, - You say that studying the suttas is the only way to be on the Path (sotapanna path and beyond). But others have repeatedly stated that they are only interested in "listening and asking questions" for "the development of wisdom". What they want to do with their lives is their own right, Alex. You say you strongly disagree with 'Phra Dhammadhara' who observes, "we should not cling to an idea of self who is going to practise and will then attain enlightenment quickly". His reason is: "if we cling to that idea of self who practices, then we are stuck with the idea of self". I agree with him that "the problem" is due to clinging -- it is known as 'attavadupadana'. So why don't we simply practice according to the Dhamma without clinging? We have the right to do that too, Alex, don't we? There are many suttas that explain how to abandon 'attavadupadana'. My understanding is that abandoning attavadupadana is a part of the right practice to "attain enlightenment quickly" and without getting abused by the Self Demon. However, I disagree with him and some DSG members who consistently deny the Buddha-recommended earnest-practicing-of-the-Dhamma (for exceptional monks) that is based on the four right exertions and determination to not stop the practice until the goal of the Holy Life is attained. Tep === #89069 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:04 pm Subject: Re: Dangerous teaching truth_aerator Dear Tep and all >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > Dear Alex, - > > You say that studying the suttas is the only way to be on the Path > (sotapanna path and beyond). Clarification: It is one of the requirments , other things are needed. > You say you strongly disagree with 'Phra Dhammadhara' I disagree with the statement, not with the Venerable. > who > observes, "we should not cling to an idea of self who is going to > practise and will then attain enlightenment quickly". His reason > is: "if we cling to that idea of self who practices, then we are > stuck with the idea of self". I agree with him that "the problem" >is > due to clinging -- it is known as 'attavadupadana'. I agree that clinging is bad, but prior to certain stages, to insist that one can always do it without the idea isn't really correct. > So why don't we simply practice according to the Dhamma without > clinging? Subtle clinging of sorts is present even in Anagamis, so it is not really possible to "practice without clinging" in full sense of the word. We should however practice as correctly as possible so that all the clingings will eventually be removed. We should use one peg to drive the other peg out, before letting go off that useful peg. > There are many suttas that explain how to abandon 'attavadupadana'. Sakkayditthi is abandoned with Stream or path to Stream. Conceit "I AM" is abandon with Arhatship or path to it. What I am trying to say is not to refuse doing wholesome things because it is "expressing The Self". We have to start somewhere and starting witha strong & healthy sense of ego for the purpose of transcending it is GOOD. As someone has said: "Before you can let go off an ego, you need to have one" or something like that. Best wishes, Alex #89070 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:05 pm Subject: Why Is It So Difficult? indriyabala Dear Alex, - Frankly, I did not expect that my last post would start a debate with you. You know, I used to think that our main understandings of the Dhamma were similar. Your reply below however seems to indicate some strong disagreements. Why is it so difficult to communicate? ========================== > You say that studying the suttas is the only way to be on the Path > (sotapanna path and beyond). Clarification: It is one of the requirments , other things are needed. > You say you strongly disagree with 'Phra Dhammadhara' I disagree with the statement, not with the Venerable. > who > observes, "we should not cling to an idea of self who is going to > practise and will then attain enlightenment quickly". His reason > is: "if we cling to that idea of self who practices, then we are > stuck with the idea of self". I agree with him that "the problem" >is > due to clinging -- it is known as 'attavadupadana'. I agree that clinging is bad, but prior to certain stages, to insist that one can always do it without the idea isn't really correct. > So why don't we simply practice according to the Dhamma without > clinging? Subtle clinging of sorts is present even in Anagamis, so it is not really possible to "practice without clinging" in full sense of the word. We should however practice as correctly as possible so that all the clingings will eventually be removed. We should use one peg to drive the other peg out, before letting go off that useful peg. > There are many suttas that explain how to abandon 'attavadupadana'. Sakkayditthi is abandoned with Stream or path to Stream. Conceit "I AM" is abandon with Arhatship or path to it. What I am trying to say is not to refuse doing wholesome things because it is "expressing The Self". We have to start somewhere and starting with a strong & healthy sense of ego for the purpose of transcending it is GOOD. As someone has said: "Before you can let go off an ego, you need to have one" or something like that. Best wishes, Alex ========================= T: If even we do not understand each other well, then I see no hope in trying to discuss the Dhamma with others whose beliefs are much more different. Metta & Peace, Tep === #89071 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:00 pm Subject: Re: Conceit, Self view & Fetters truth_aerator Dear Tep, >-- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > Dear Alex, - > >I did not expect that my last post would start a debate with you. >Your reply below however seems to indicate some strong >disagreements. I didn't notice strong disagreements. Few points: 1)5 Higher Fetters including conceit & avijja are present even in Anagamis. 2) Sakkay-ditthi is present until stream or path to stream. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samyojana.htm 3) Thus to claim that one can and should *always* be without "self clinging" prior to stream isn't 100% correct. It is a natural & deluded self inclination that is present before it is permanently eliminated. Thus we should follow the path fully knowing our weaknesses, don't deny the wrong tendencies & try to use them to get rid of them. Is there any disagreement there? Best wishes, Alex #89072 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:40 pm Subject: Re: Conceit, Self view & Fetters indriyabala Dear Alex, - You kindly responded : >Alex: Few points: 1) 5 Higher Fetters including conceit & avijja are present even in Anagamis. 2) Sakkay-ditthi is present until stream or path to stream. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/samyojana.htm 3) Thus to claim that one can and should *always* be without "self clinging" prior to stream isn't 100% correct. It is a natural & deluded self inclination that is present before it is permanently eliminated. Thus we should follow the path fully knowing our weaknesses, don't deny the wrong tendencies & try to use them to get rid of them. Is there any disagreement there? .......................... T: I have no problem agreeing with items 1 and 2. But you're assumimg that I wrote "always be without clinging". So let's backtrack to the original message of mine. Earlier I wrote: I agree with him that "the problem" is due to clinging -- it is known as 'attavadupadana'. So why don't we simply practice according to the Dhamma without clinging? We have the right to do that too, Alex, don't we? [endquote] T: So you may see that you made a wrong assumption about *always* be without clinging. I am not an arahant. ;-) The meaning of "simply practice ... without clinging" is that one does not allow craving of the following forms: 'pleasure/displeasure', 'like/dislike', 'infatuation/aversion', or 'love/hate' to enter the mind. This is accomplished through not-accepting and rejecting such mental states whenever they arise [e.g. see 'pahana sanna' in AN 10.60]. With no craving/desire, there is no nutriment for clinging(updana) at that moment. I have practiced this for a number of years now, and the success rate is getting higher now than before. Of course, 'anusayas' have not been abandoned yet. Tep === #89073 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:00 pm Subject: Re: Conceit, Self view & Fetters truth_aerator Dear Tep and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Dear Alex, - > T: I have no problem agreeing with items 1 and 2. But you're >assumimg that I wrote "always be without clinging". So let's >backtrack to the original message of mine. > > Earlier I wrote: > > I agree with him that "the problem" is due to clinging -- it is >known as 'attavadupadana'. I agree here to the craving is "the problem". > So why don't we simply practice according to the Dhamma without > clinging? We have the right to do that too, Alex, don't we? > [endquote] > > T: So you may see that you made a wrong assumption about *always* >be without clinging. I am not an arahant. ;-) It is true that we should practice to be without clinging for as long stretches of time as possible, trying to gradually increase the no- clinging time. What I have issues with is when some people reject valid practices because those practice may be done with self-clinging. Prior to stream entry (or its path), almost any if not any, practice no matter how valid - may be infected with latent defilements. > > The meaning of "simply practice ... without clinging" is that one > does not allow craving of the following forms: > 'pleasure/displeasure', > 'like/dislike', > 'infatuation/aversion', or > 'love/hate' to enter the mind. I agree with this. > This is accomplished through not-accepting and rejecting such >mental states whenever they arise [e.g. see 'pahana sanna' in AN >10.60]. With no craving/desire, there is no nutriment for clinging >(updana) at that moment. I have practiced this for a number of >years now, and the success rate is getting higher now than before. >Of course, 'anusayas' have not been abandoned yet. > > Tep > === I wish you all the best in your practice and the quickest and most pleasant path. Best wishes, Alex #89074 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:27 pm Subject: Not Easy, but Possible! bhikkhu0 Daily Words of the Buddha for 14 August 2008 The Blessed Buddha once said: HirÄ«matÄ? ca dujjÄ«vaṃ niccaṃ sucigavesinÄ?, alÄ«nenÄ?ppagabbhena, suddhÄ?jÄ«vena passatÄ?. Not Easy, but Possible! & extremely Advantageous: Difficult is the life of the modest & humble one! Difficult is it, to always seek only purity, to be detached, composed, restrained, & all blameless with a clear straight view! Dhammapada 245 file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Administrator/My%20Documents/My%20Web%20Si\ tes/What_Buddha_Said/images/Dhamma_Images/old/Dhammapada_245.jpg Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #89075 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:44 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, It is unpredictable when sati will arise and of what it will be aware. When we recognize something there must have been many different cittas which arise and fell away. Seeing which experiences only visible object is one reality, it is different from recognizing someone. When we recognize someone we think of a concept, but there must also be seeing in order to recognize someone. One may wonder whether sati should not be aware of seeing first and then of thinking. There is no rule, no specific order. There may not be mindfulness of seeing, but when one has recognized someone, sati may arise and be mindful of the nåma which recognizes. Then seeing arises again and sati may be mindful of seeing, or of visible object. We cannot plan of what object there will be awareness, sati is not self. Seeing is different from visible object and one may wonder how one can separate seeing from visible object, they seem to appear together. There is no self who can separate seeing from visible object. Sati can be aware sometimes of seeing, sometimes of visible object. There can be study of one charactersitic at a time and in that way right understanding can realize their different characteristics. If one thinks that one can experience seeing and visible object at the same time it shows that there is no mindfulness. When one joins realities together into a “whole”, one is thinking of a concept. Only after a more precise knowledge of nåma and rúpa has been developed, can paññå experience their arising and falling away. One may wonder why the arising and falling away of realities cannot be experienced before nåma can be distinguished from rúpa. Why should one first distinguish visible object from seeing or sound from hearing? There is the appearance and disappearance of many different realities. Seeing arises and then hearing, and then other realities appear and disappear. Is that not the experience of impermanence? That is only thinking about impermanence, not the direct experience of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. “If one still takes seeing and visible object together, as a ‘whole’, what arises and falls away?”, Khun Sujin asked. What exactly arises and fall away? Is it seeing or visible object? Only one object can be experienced at a time. The first stage of insight is knowing the difference between nåma and rúpa through direct experience. The arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa can be realized at a later stage. First their different characterstics have to be studied. “If you do not study seeing and visible object now, don’t think that you can become a sotåpanna”, Khun Sujin said. ***** Nina. #89076 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accepting Bhaavanaa Means Accepting Development Of Samatha And Vipassana sarahprocter... Dear Connie, Thanks for your assistance below. Also for your (& Scott's) assistance with the Pali and Nanamoli/Bodhi translation of a sutta in another thread. Metta, Sarah --- On Wed, 6/8/08, connie wrote: --- On Mon, 28/7/08, connie wrote: >"The king once asked about the characteristic mark[s] of faith, perseverance, mindfulness and meditation. ........ "Then, meditation's characteristic mark: 'Being the leader, O king. All good qualities have meditation as their chief, they incline to it, lead up towards it, are as so many slopes up the side of the mountain of meditation.' " #89077 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Life Free From Money sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Ganesh & all, --- On Wed, 13/8/08, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >I appreciate your post. It is important for lay followers to know how to behave. Layfollowers have a responsibility too in helping the monks so that the Vinaya is observed. Nina. Op 13-aug-2008, om 12:04 heeft S.Ganesh het volgende geschreven: > Part 1 Information For Lay Supporters > Part 2 The Fault In Accepting Money > Part 3 The Rules Concerning Money ..... S: The full article can be found here: http://www.visuddha-m-c.org/vmc%20sg/Dhamma%20Books/books%20doc/Lay%20Disciples%\ 20Books/U%20Dhamminda%20Books/The%20Rules%20For%20Buddhist%20Monks%20and%20Nuns.\ PDF (If the link doesn't work, perhaps Mike or someone else will help with a correct one.) Of course it depends on whether there is an understanding of the value of sila, here Patimokkha samvara sila, whether the Patimokkha will be observed. Those who don't see the value in the rules, won't observe them and will receive money, for example. As you say, this applies to lay people too who also have a responsibility to help monks observe them and to appreciate that the monk's life is very different from the lay life in this regard. I remember K.Sujin discussing how anyone should study all the rules first to see whether they can follow them happily and easily. Otherwise, if they can't be followed, there will just be a lot of anxiety which will hinder the path. She said that even if we undertake to follow 10 rules, including not receiving money, we should know whether we can follow them joyfully. Metta, Sarah p.s Ganesh, why not introduce yourself? ========== #89078 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila Always Comes First ! sarahprocter... Dear Scott (Tep & all), --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Scott Duncan wrote: >Just to add to the discussion, regarding: "If there is no sense control, o monks, then the basis for virtue is destroyed for one who lacks sense control. If there is no virtue, then the basis for right concentration is destroyed for one who lacks virtue. If there is no concentration, then the basis for knowledge and vision of things as they really are is destroyed for one who lacks concentration. " [AN VI, 50] "8. Indriyasanvarasutta .m Control of the mental faculties 005.08. Bhikkhus, without control of the mental faculties, gone wrong in the mental faculties, virtues are destroyed. Without virtues, gone wrong in virtues, right concentration is destroyed. Without right concentration, gone wrong in right concentration, seeing things as they really are, is destroyed. Without seeing things as they really are, gone wrong in seeing things as they really are, knowledge and vision of seeing things as they really are is destroyed. Without knowledge and vision of seeing things as they really are, gone wrong in knowledge and vision of seeing things as they really are, turning away and disenchantment is destroyed. Without turning away and disenchantment, gone wrong in turning away and disenchantment, knowledge and vision of release is destroyed." 50. Indriyasa.mvare bhikkhave asati indriyasa.mvaravipa nnassa hatuupanisa. m hoti siila.m. Siile asati siilavipannassa hatuupaniso hoti sammaasamaadhi. Sammaasamaadhimhi asati sammaasamaadhivipan nassa hatuupanisa. m hoti yathaabhuuta~ naa.nadassana. m. Yathaabhuuta~ naa.nadassane asati yathaabhuuta~ naa.nadassanavip annassa hatuupaniso hoti nibbidaaviraago. Nibbidaaviraage asati nibbidaaviraagavipa nnassa hatuupanisa. m hoti vimutti~naa. nadassana. m. >Scott: I notice, when looking at the Paa.li, that 'sense control' or 'control of the mental faculties' is a function of 'sati'. Mindfulness is said to be 'first' (although I don't agree with a concrete step-by-step, cookbook or recipe reading of these sorts of things) and mindfulness (satindriya. m) - mindfulness as a power - is "...remembering, bearing in mind, the opposite of superficiality and of obliviousness. .." (Dhammasa"nga. ni, p. 14). .... Sarah: There are different kinds and levels of samvara sila (sa.mvara siila). Samvara refers to 'guarding'. For example, Patimokkha samvara sila, which I just referred to, is the guarding or observing of the Patimokkha rules for bhikkhus. When the reference is to indriya samvara sila (as in the sutta quote above), I understand it to always be referring to the development of satipatthana. It is the understanding of the danger of not being aware of moments of seeing and so on, to the guarding of the sense doors. Without the development of right understanding, therefore, which 'guards', sila won't be developed and purified, nor will right concentration and the path won't be followed. Metta, Sarah ========= #89079 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Hindrances sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Tue, 5/8/08, Herman Hofman wrote: H:> If it is the citta now that counts, then what are the books for, Sarah? Since when is the seeing of meanings in patterns of black and white an understanding of the present moment? ... S: Now, seeing sees visible object. However the visible objects seen are a condition for thinking wisely or unwisely, for ignorance or wisdom, all depending on accumulations. ..... H:>When you are absorbed in your book or your chores, there is no opportunity for you to be aware of the present. .... S: Usually, I agree, we're absorbed with attachment or ignorance. However, there can be awareness and understanding at anytime, even when absorbed. Again, as we stress so often, it's not a matter of changing the circumstances, of moving the deck-shairs, but of directly understanding what appears now. Isn't there seeing now? Visible object now? Thinking now? .... >>S: If we wait for another 'setting', when there is no sensual desire, it will never be known, the >path will never be followed. H:> I cannot take this seriously. You regularly fly to Bangkok. What can happen in Bangkok that cannot happen at home while doing your chores and your reading? .... S:> Just the same realities whether in Bangkok, Sydney or Hong Kong, whether reading Dhamma books or washing the dishes or watching the Olympics. These are all stories about different situations, more dreams which we find so important and 'lucid'. In reality, just moments of sense experience and lots of thinking regardless. .... H:> I have no problems with whatever you do, BTW, but I just do not share your conviction that your approach merits a "true Dhamma" seal of approval. :-) .... S: :-) It all just depends on different accumulations. You have no problems but also attach a lot of importance to the 'circumstances' rather than the realities, it seems. I'm more interested in the realities than the circumstances when it comes to discussing and understanding the Dhamma. Thanks for kindly reading my reflectons on 'Space' and for your feedback, btw. Metta, Sarah p.s Have you been having snow in Bathurst? ========== #89080 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gradual Talk sarahprocter... Hi Alex (Tep & all), --- On Thu, 7/8/08, Alex wrote: >> S: Attavadupadana, along with all other kinds of wrong view, is >eradicated at the stage of sotapatti-magga. > .... A:> Sakkayaditthi is removed at stream entry. However even Anagamis have residual conceit and craving (for rupa/arupa lokas) "I am". Avijja is fully removed only at path to arahatship (or the fruit of it). The Buddha & his Arahat disciples didn't feel ANY problem talking with personal prouns: "I, you, me, other wonderers, etc". .... S: Agreed. (residual conceit and craving are not attavadupadana.) ... >> S: !! Friends and people don't see anything. Panna does the tough >work, gradually understanding dhammas as anatta. A:> So does this panna that typed this, has this understanding? And if it didn't type this, then is another panna hallucinating sitting in front of this PC? .... S:Many different cittas are involved in what we call 'typing'. We've discussed the speed of cittas in another thread. You appreciated the last quote I gave from the Vism., so here's another one we often quote: Visuddhimagga, VII, 39: "As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls [that is touches the ground] only on one point of [the circumference of] its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it was said: 'In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live. In a present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. "'Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow' (Nd.1,42)." .... A:> What exactly did you mean by the "start"? Can you please explain how what you've said above fits with the Gradual Talk? .... S: If we say the highest goal is the fully developed right understanding, if it doesn't develop now, if there isn't any beginning of right understanding, then how will such a goal ever be reached? .... A:> ânupubbî-kathâ: step by step teaching 1) Generosity (dâna) 2) Virtue (sîla) 3) Heaven (sagga) 4) Danger &Drawback of sensual pleasure (kâmânaṃ âdînava) 5) Renunciation (nekkhamma) Then when the mind is ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, the 6)The Four Noble Truths (cattâri ariya-saccâni) It is quite possible that the above 5 or 6 items were covered by you and other people here, years ago. If so, can you please repost those discussions, please? .... S: The Buddha taught about the development of generosity with right understanding, the development of sila with right understanding and so on. At moment of right understanding there is alobha, adosa and so on. There is sila and renunciation. Check U.P. for 'gradual' if you have time. I think Jon & Nina have also responded to this, so I'll keep it short(er) and watch a little Olympics:-). Metta, Sarah ======= #89081 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Can of almost dead worms in Antarabha after the suicide sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, --- On Wed, 13/8/08, Alex wrote: >> S: What do you mean by 'loosing their vividness'? A:> Have you ever fainted? Have you ever been close to? Don't you know that it is very hard (almost impossible) to figure out what is going on in the moment immeadetely prior to falling into unconscious, much less doing Patipada? .... S: I think again, it depends on accumulations and wise attention. Even when close to fainting (and yes, I've fainted), there are realities, there is seeing, hearing and so on. There is still lots of thinking too. Patipada can be anytime at all, even just as one is about to become unconscious. ..... >>S: Seeing consciousness still sees visible object, no matter the >circumstances, no matter how close to cuti citta it arises. A:> Never had double vision, or blurred vision or anything like that? Just figure the amount of redness in the eyes when someone cut his own neck and the total wreckage of the bodily system... .... S: Still if there are the accumulations and conditions, there can be awareness and right understanding slipping in. The more understanding, the more confidence there is that the Dhamma is about realities, not about situations. Anytime at all.... .... >>S: The same with hearing consciousness or any other cittas. A:> Some people loose conscious by seeing someone else's blood. Here we have a guy who just cut his own neck in suicide. .... S: He's listened to the Dhamma from the Buddha and his key disciples and there were conditions for insights to arise even then. I don't think I can say anything more on this. I understand it's different from the way you've considered suttas like this to date. .... >> S: Because as soon as patisandhi citta follows the cuti citta, it >is a new life in one of the realms as explained by the Buddha. A:> And one of the realms may be the Antarabhava (or just Bhava in DO). .... S: No realm called anatarabhava. Bhava in D.O. refers to kamma-bhava or present kamma which will bring results in future, not to a realm. ..... A:> The Best of wishes to you, .... S: And to you! Metta, Sarah p.s Jon's turn for the shared computer here! I think I'm up-to-date:-) ========== #89082 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila Always Comes First ! scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Howzitgoin? Thank you for the reply: Sarah: There are different kinds and levels of samvara sila (sa.mvara siila). Samvara refers to 'guarding'. For example, Patimokkha samvara sila, which I just referred to, is the guarding or observing of the Patimokkha rules for bhikkhus. When the reference is to indriya samvara sila (as in the sutta quote above), I understand it to always be referring to the development of satipatthana. It is the understanding of the danger of not being aware of moments of seeing and so on, to the guarding of the sense doors. Without the development of right understanding, therefore, which 'guards', sila won't be developed and purified, nor will right concentration and the path won't be followed." Scott: Getting fooled by the Paa.li aside (and what better way to learn?) I think I was getting at the above in what I was trying to say. I think this is so important - the part about satipa.t.thaana. I understand 'abstinence', for example, to be the result of an 'active' dhamma (I guess) and not merely the absence of behaviour. In the 'understanding of the danger of not being aware of moments of seeing and so on, to the guarding of the sense doors' it can't be without the true knowing of the nature of what is arising to be 'abstained' from. And this is the guarding. It can't be just me thinking about it - the guarding is not a function of thoughts about situations, although these thoughts, as I put forward in the example I gave to Jon about the aborted 'act of kindness', would of necessity have to have been conditioned by some dhamma or other arising. The guarding or not guarding occurs long before thoughts about guarding or not guarding have arisen. Such events can be contemplated, I think, and such contemplation is good. Sincerely, Scott. #89083 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:47 am Subject: Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream abhidhammika Dear Howard, Swee Boon, Alex, Phil and all How are you? The Buddha sometimes described his teachings as 'Atakkaavacaro, beyond verbalization'. Sudden insight in my dream belongs to the category of falling beyond verbalization. Swee Boon asked: "But what exactly did you insighted? That the Beijing Olympics was suspended? Or that your sneezing was suspended?" Swee Boon, by those questions, you were attempting to force me to verbalize something beyond verbalization. In short, your questions were meaningless, and unanswerable. On the other hand, if one were clever enough to ask the right questions, the suitable answers would have been offered. What might look like the right questions in the present context? Examples of the right questions would be 1. What do we need to do to get the sudden insight? 2. Did the Buddha teach methods for getting the sudden insight? As the example questions I put in Swee Boon's mouth were valid and answerable, the following answers would have been offered. Swee Boon, 1. For question one, we need to undertake the formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa. Informal practice will slow down the progress at best, may even derail at worst. So I recommend undertaking of formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa. 2. For question two, yes, the Buddha taught methods for getting sudden insight. If one needs to see majority of these methods at one place, please read Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Suttam and choose a suitable method. Then, undertake the formal practice of that chosen method until the desired outcomes happen. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #89084 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:43 am Subject: Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream nidive Hi Conceited Abhidhammika Suan with Super Big Ego, > The Buddha sometimes described his teachings as 'Atakkaavacaro, > beyond verbalization'. > > Sudden insight in my dream belongs to the category of falling > beyond verbalization. You have such a big ego! Conceited beyond words! Fancy comparing yourself with the Buddha. Are you an arahant? > In short, your questions were meaningless, and unanswerable. My questions were completely valid. Since you have declared to have obtained insight out in the open, you have an obligation to tell us what exactly did you insighted. If not, you are just pure bullshitting, and you should keep your bullshit to yourself. > On the other hand, if one were clever enough to ask the right > questions, the suitable answers would have been offered. > > What might look like the right questions in the present context? > > Examples of the right questions would be > > 1. What do we need to do to get the sudden insight? > > 2. Did the Buddha teach methods for getting the sudden insight? It is not kind speech to indirectly insult someone. But what can I expect from someone who is so conceited anyway! Swee Boon #89085 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:31 am Subject: Re: Highest goal ISN'T simply UNDERSTANDING. truth_aerator Dear Sarah and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex (Tep & all), > S: If we say the highest goal is the fully developed right >understanding, if it doesn't develop now, if there isn't any >beginning of right understanding, then how will such a goal ever be >reached? 1st) The knowledge of destruction (Upanisa Sutta) or in other words (pari) Nibbana is the final goal. 2nd) IMHO before the correct understanding has a chance of growth & of being able to carry out its functions there needs to be proper conditions. Without proper conditions, right understanding will not be powerful enough to do much. Improper conditions are the defilements that Blind us, sensuality & anger for example. Proper conditions is a state of mind (temporary) free from defilements, ready, bright & alert. Like the mind in/after Jhana... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.... > A:> ânupubbî-kathâ: step by step teaching > 1) Generosity (dâna) > 2) Virtue (sîla) > 3) Heaven (sagga) > 4) Danger &Drawback of sensual pleasure (kâmânaṃ âdînava) > 5) Renunciation (nekkhamma) > > Then when the mind is ready, malleable, free from hindrances, > elated, & bright, the > 6)The Four Noble Truths (cattâri ariya-saccâni) > > It is quite possible that the above 5 or 6 items were covered by you > and other people here, years ago. If so, can you please repost those > discussions, please? > .... > S: The Buddha taught about the development of generosity with right >understanding, the development of sila with right understanding and >so on. At moment of right understanding there is alobha, adosa and >so on. There is sila and renunciation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have sutta quotes? As I understand it, when person really has right view, then one is ariya already. Best wishes, Alex #89086 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dangerous teaching nilovg Dear Alex, Op 14-aug-2008, om 22:16 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > Phra Dhammadhara remarked that we should not cling to an idea of > >self who is going to practise and will then attain enlightenment > >quickly. He said: "Then we are stuck with the idea of self. > > I strongly disagree. > > > We cannot say, > > `Come on sati, come one paññå". Are we not sometimes behaving as if > >we could induce them? > > But we can work on supporting conditions, such as Bhavana. > > Hopefully no misunderstandings will arise ------- A: (in another post): What I am trying to say is not to refuse doing wholesome things because it is "expressing The Self". We have to start somewhere and starting witha strong & healthy sense of ego for the purpose of transcending it is GOOD. As someone has said: "Before you can let go off an ego, you need to have one" or something like that. ------ N: First of all we have to understand the nature of anatta of sati that comes so suddenly, so unexpectedly, and is then gone completely. It is necessary to know the moments with sati and without sati. Usually we are dreaming of all sorts of things, events, people. But sometimes, without our trying or looking for it, just a rupa or nama presents itself one at a time, and then there is not thinking of my body, of myself. It may be hardness, or sound, any reality. It is followed by many moments of forgetfulness again. If we do not understand its nature of anatta, beyond control, we shall not be able to grasp what sati is. If we start off 'with a healthy sense of self' we shall not know what sati is. Those who are used to other view points may not be able to accept what Ven. Dhammadhara said. The idea of not doing anything seems an idea leading to laziness and passivity, even to despair. We should understand 'not doing anything' in the correct way. It does not mean laziness, it means listening again and again, considering and understanding that the view of 'me doing something in order to induce sati' has to be abandoned little by little. This is not easy, it seems to go against our nature. We would rather 'do' something, see progress, our progress. It is helpful to understand that cittas arise in processes, in a certain order that nobody can change. Kusala cittas are accompanied by several sobhana cetasikas and sati is one of them. Citta and its accompanying cetasikas arise for one moment and are then gone. There is no time to do anything and make specific cittas and cetasikas arise. Nina. #89087 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:33 pm Subject: (some) Avijja & Conceit -> are present, even in Anagamis truth_aerator Dear Nina, Tep, and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > ------- > A: (in another post): What I am trying to say is not to refuse >doing > wholesome things > because it is "expressing The Self". We have to start somewhere and > starting witha strong & healthy sense of ego for the purpose of > transcending it is GOOD. > As someone has said: "Before you can let go off an ego, you need to > have one" or something like that. > ------ > N: First of all we have to understand the nature of anatta of sati > that comes so suddenly, so unexpectedly, and is then gone >completely. The avijja is fully handled on the path (or fruit of) Arahatship. To expect 100% cessation of avijja prior to developing sati (or samadhi) is like to expect to arrive to a destination prior to boarding that airplane that is supposed to carry one there. The conceit and feeling of "I am" is present even for Anagamis. Again to expect one to fully let go off conceit prior to perfecting Samadhi & Panna of Arahatship level, is like expecting to arrive to the destination before getting there in the first place. Thank you for your reply, Best wishes, Alex #89088 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream egberdina Hi Suan, 2008/8/16 abhidhammika : > > How are you? > > The Buddha sometimes described his teachings as 'Atakkaavacaro, > beyond verbalization'. > > Sudden insight in my dream belongs to the category of falling beyond > verbalization. > So why did you tell us about it? > Swee Boon asked: > > "But what exactly did you insighted? That the Beijing Olympics was > suspended? Or that your sneezing was suspended?" > > Swee Boon, by those questions, you were attempting to force me to > verbalize something beyond verbalization. > > In short, your questions were meaningless, and unanswerable. > > On the other hand, if one were clever enough to ask the right > questions, the suitable answers would have been offered. > > What might look like the right questions in the present context? I think what may also be asked is: Of what value is this sudden insight? Clearly, it can be of no value to anybody else, since you cannot express it. So, more precisely, of what inexpressible value is this sudden insight to you? Cheers Herman #89089 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta kenhowardau Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Sukin, Herman, and Jon) - > > In a message dated 8/12/2008 9:27:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Hi Sukin, Howard, Herman and Jon, > > Thanks for your discussion of this extraordinary and difficult to > understand sutta. (Aren't they all?) If I am following correctly, > Ananda said to the Bhikkhunni something along the lines > of, "Motivated by craving [for arahantship] and conceited [with the > thought of being an arahant] I sought wise companionship and heard > the true Dhamma. Therefore, in my case, those forms of misconduct > turned out to be [natural decisive support] condition for bhavana. > Sexual misconduct, however, can never be a condition for bhavana." > > That would seem reasonable to me. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > To me as well, Ken. (Now you first need to worry! ;-) :-) Not at all! :-) But the Dhamma teaches something new, doesn't it? There is nothing in my interpretation that the ordinary man in the street could not have seen. One thing for sure; there is more to the sutta than that! Ken H #89090 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma, Logic, Anatta egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/8/5 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > >> Well, if we are clear about sabbe, then it would seem to me to be an >> act of insanity to go and create a taxonomy of sankhara and dhamma. > > "Sabbe" is a qualifier. It is meaningless on its own, without > reference to whatever is being qualified (precise enough, but > meaningless ;-)). > Well Jon, if you can point to something that is not a dhamma, than you have made a worthwhile point. Cheers Herman #89091 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: SN35: 153 (8) Is there a Method? - THERE IS SUCH A METHOD!!! sarahprocter... Dear Tep, --- On Thu, 14/8/08, Tep Sastri wrote: T:> This post is my last conversation with you on the following subjects : understanding, right view, mindfulness, sila, samadhi, panna: virtually, everything concerning the Dhamma. ;-)) ..... S: I do hope you're joking and that conditions change so that you don't feel it's a complete waste of time trying to communicate with me :-)) .... T:>I give a reason below. ............ ......... ......... ......... ... >>S: Again, no inconsistency as I see it. Different levels of right understanding - see the last comment. .... >T: Clearly, that is "understanding" that belongs to trainers (sekha) who have right view. .... >S: Again, how does the understanding develop to sekha-level if not by beginning to understand namas and rupas now, such as seeing and visible object as dhammas, not atta? ............ ......... ......... ......... ... >T: Again your reply is very consistent. .... S: And now I'm not sure if the problem is the 'consistency' of my replies or the 'flip-flopping' in them. Either way, I'm sure I must be a poor communicator and that it must be frustrating trying to have a dhamma discussion with me. ..... T:> Again I see the same communication dead-end : closed ears, closed eyes, closed mind; "only what I believe is right". How can there be a fruitful discussion at this communication dead-end? ... S: In fairness, I think I can only respond to points or answer questions raised according to my understanding of the teachings. Perhaps I misunderstood some of your comments or (rhetorical?) questions as suggesting a response was called for. I'm probably doing the same again here. Put it down to my English sense of politeness, if you like. Anyway, no need for you to respond further to any 'dead-end' comments of mine. Meanwhile, I look forward to reading your further interesting discussions with Alex and others who appear more open-minded to you. I'm sure we'll talk again later, Tep. I always value the discussions even if you find them too frustrating. Anyway, this has been a long thread, so it's good for us both to have a rest from it. Thank you for all your input. Metta, Sarah ====== #89092 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just studying & Sariputta egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/8/5 jonoabb : > Hi Alex > > > Similarly, the reflecting is reflexive, not a deliberate act. > > In any event, there is certainly a difference between hearing and > reflecting on the Bible, and hearing and reflecting on the true > Dhamma. A person could not, by hearing an explanation of the > teachings in the Bible, come to an intellectual understanding of > dhammas and the way things truly are; only the hearing of the true > dhamma can make that possible, and without that hearing such > understanding could not occur. > > And that intellectual understanding is requisite for direct > experience to occur. > In circles where expressions of faith are considered to be admirable, this is a great statement. But any fool will realise that no amount of intellectual understanding of any kind of experience can lead to that experience. It would not matter how much a blind person studied all that is known and understood about seeing, none of that study will ever lead him to see. And if the blind fellow convinced himself at any time that he had a right intellectual understanding of seeing, any fool would be able to put him straight just by hiding his cane :-). Cheers Herman #89093 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a question? egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/8/5 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > >> If not generalised from specific examples, what then is the basis > for >> your unshakable interpretation of the Dhamma? > > If by "the Dhamma" you mean doctrinal statements or the teaching on > the development of insight, there are plenty of texts, in the suttas > and vinaya in particular, dealing with these. > > As to whether a specific example or description could be the basis > for inferring a doctrinal point, I suppose it's possible; but one > would expect to find the same point expressed more directly elsewhere > (just an opinion, of course). > > As for "my" interpretation (and it's "unshakeableness"), it is what I > understand the orthodox, commentarial interpretation to be. I do not > claim it as my own. And when I stray from that orthodox, > commentarial interpretation, I'm only too happy to have it pointed > out ;-)). > > Problem is, every Tom, Dick and H has his own pet interpretation, and > is not interested in what the commentaries say (except of course when > it suits him ;-)) > You seem to acknowledge that the commentators have interpreted the suttas. But you do not seem to acknowledge that they have derived general doctrinal positions from specific examples. If the purpose of commentating was not to distill some essential formulation from the raw material of the suttas, why commentate? Cheers Herman #89094 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Just studying & Sariputta truth_aerator Dear Herman, Jon and all, >-- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > But any fool will realise that no amount of > intellectual understanding of any kind of experience can lead to that > experience. It would not matter how much a blind person studied all > that is known and understood about seeing, none of that study will > ever lead him to see. And if the blind fellow convinced himself at any > time that he had a right intellectual understanding of seeing, any > fool would be able to put him straight just by hiding his cane :-). > > Cheers > > > Herman I agree. No amount of intellectual understanding is equal to direct experience. An ounce of practice is worth a pound of "understanding". Understanding without practice and/or direct seeing is almost useless. And hey, how would we distinguish the understanding of one tradition vs understanding of another Buddhist tradition? Can one develop full "understanding" of the mind without deep meditation? Not a chance as long as other 5 senses are operational. Only when 5 senses shut down can the full force of mindfulness observe the 6th sense. It is like being in a room with 6 tvs, all of them showing different programs - too much distraction. But when you shut down 5 TV's and leave one on, only then (the mind) can be fully seen with super mindfulness... ... ... Best wishes, Alex #89095 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta kenhowardau Hi again Howard, I'll take back what I just said about my interpretation. It was not the same as the ordinary man in the street's. As I read suttas craving (lobha) and conceit (mana) refer to fleeting, identifiable, verifiable, self-existent (I couldn't resist that one :-)), conditioned dhammas. They are not controllable things that a person can "do" - as the man in the street probably thinks they are. Ken H #89096 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is a question? egberdina Hi Jon, 2008/8/10 jonoabb : > Hi Herman > >> There was a time when the holy life was lived under the Blessed One >> for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. >> > > I think you're making the point that after the Buddha's death there > were monks who joined the sangha for the wrong reason. In fact, this > happened in the time of the Buddha himself also (for example, joining > the order to gain access to medical treatment), so it's not a new > phenomena that's being described. > > But that apart, I'm afraid I don't see the significance of the point > to our discussion. > The point is what the point of Buddhism is. It's not what every Tom, Dick or Harriet makes of Buddhism, or where they want to go, it is what the Buddha did and where he wanted to go, >> I imagine, because you question my statements as to their relevance > to >> the path, that you have a certain path in mind. Is it total > unbinding >> through lack of clinging that you seek? If it is, then there are > those >> who have gone before you who have identified waypoints for you > whereby >> you may mark your progress. > > Thanks for the quote from MN 24 that follows. Could you please be a > little more explicit as to its significance to our discussion? > Thanks. > Our discussion is about the goal of Buddhism. MN24 sets out the waypoints for those who have the same aims as the Buddha. >> >> Consequences are known only in relation to a goal. If one doesn't > have >> or know a goal, then they have no way of evaluating their actions. >> Where do you hope to end up? > > A goal is a thought held on the part of the 'doer'. > > According to the teachings, moments of consciousness that accompany > actions are either wholesome or unwholesome by their nature, > regardless of any perception as to the goal of the action. You sound like a blind man describing the colour red, Jon. :-) > >> Again, these can only be evaluated in terms of a goal. Some >> suggestions as to why people might do the above: >> >> brushing teeth: habit, fear, vanity >> eating breakfast: craving, fear, habit >> conversation: fear, craving, habit, vanity > > But these could hardly be called goals. Craving, fear and vanity are > unwholesome mental factors. These are the things that give actions > their ethical quality. Ever heard of art for art's sake? Well, craving (fear and vanity reduce to this) is just like that. There's no good reason for it, but it's still there. Craving is an integral part of why anything to do with our lives, is the way it is. That is clear from DO and the 4NT. There is no goal to craving, but all our actions are in the service of quenching it. In the absence of craving, there is no need to do anything. What could possibly be the goal of an action that didn't want things to be different to what they already are, Jon? > >> > And whichever it is, is this really part of the path to > enlightenment? >> >> That depends on what you imagine enlightenment to be. Are you > getting >> any closer? :-) > > There is a path to enlightenment found in the teachings. It is the > understanding of that path that interests me, for the purpose of this > discussion. I know of a path that leads to cessation that is well described. It seems to me that a path that leads to knowledge or understanding of some kind is simply a perpetuation of samsara. I do not think this is what Buddhism is about. But you are free to do as you see fit.:-) Cheers Herman #89097 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:14 pm Subject: Nikini Poya day - 1st Council. bhikkhu0 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Nikini Poya day is the full-moon of August. Bhikkhus who did not enter the yearly rains retreat (Vas) early at Esala Poya day (peravas), are allowed to enter the the rain retreat now in august (pasuvas). Nikini Poya day celebrates the first ever Dhammasangayana - The First Buddhist Council where, what the Buddha said, is agreed upon & recited. This took place at the Saptapanni Rock Cave in Rajagaha (now Rajgir , India), under the patronage of Mahakassapa Thera & it went on for seven long months. It established the original authentic Tipitaka: The Three Baskets of Sacred Text = The Pali Canon. The 7 Sattapanni Caves in Rajgir, where the First Buddhist Council was held. http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Pics/Sattapanni.cave.jpg On the first Buddhist Council: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Buddhist_Council On such Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards NibbÄ?na: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here . A public list of this new Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Disciples: The Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #89098 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:17 pm Subject: Andrew L's pic and the usual round-up call sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, Alex & all, Just seen the nice pic which you must have recently put in the DSG album! How are you? How's New York? How are your dhamma studies and various practices/treatments going? If you're reading this, please give us an up-date and perhaps another brief intro to remind friends who you are. I remember the great discussions we had before. Again, if any other regulars like ALEX (or not-so-regulars) would care to (or can be persuaded to) put a pic in the album, it does help us all (or make it more enjoyable at least) to put a pic to the name. If anyone would like assistance with this, please ask James or Christine or me. Even if you only have an old driving licence pic, James can deal with it (and even touch it up if you're image-conscious:-)). Metta, Sarah ========= #89099 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:59 pm Subject: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/15/2008 8:12:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi again Howard, I'll take back what I just said about my interpretation. It was not the same as the ordinary man in the street's. As I read suttas craving (lobha) and conceit (mana) refer to fleeting, identifiable, verifiable, self-existent (I couldn't resist that one :-)), conditioned dhammas. They are not controllable things that a person can "do" - as the man in the street probably thinks they are. Ken H =============================== Warning! Warning! Sarcasm ahead. Proceed with caution! I suppose what the lowly "man in the street" has as an advantage over those of us who know the "real Dhamma" is that he only talks about things that he is actually familiar with. For him, foolish, benighted, ordinary guy that he is, he's prone to such mistakes as thinking that "craving" is the actual, ordinary wanting of something that he observes all the time, that hurts so much, and thinking that by a variety of means he can avoid it or at least lessen it by various means. (If only he knew that lobha, is something he's never really observed! Foolish guy - the Pali name should have told him that right off!) Why, in reading suttas, he might get it into his head that the Buddha actually taught actions precisely aimed at heading off craving about to arise, and reducing and even cutting off craving already arisen. He might even think there is training - mere pointless rites and rituals, of course, according to "those in the know" - that he might engage in to make his mind increasingly resistant to the gnawing, oft-appearing, pain-engendering antagonist he actually is aware of. Silly man, living in his man-in-the-street fool's paradise. With metta, Howard #89100 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta kenhowardau Hi Sukin, Nina and Howard, -------------- <. . .> S: > I did vaguely recall the official interpretation and even read an old post by Sarah. However when it occurred to me to compare craving and conceit with the other papanca dhamma namely wrong view, I decided to express a more liberal interpretation. :-) ---------------- I'm glad you did. And already you have taught me a new term, "papanca dhamma." :-) ------------------- S: > More likely such thought would itself be motivated by craving, one which imo, would reflect that any understanding of the craving associated with `Dhamma Study' must have been quite superficial to begin with. So I think, at any time what is of greatest value is "Right Understanding". Whether we waver or not, still the need will always be to develop more understanding of whatever arises. In this regard I think it is good to be reminded about those akusala dhammas which are as yet hardly noticeable such that there can be some "right reflection" on it. I liked very much what I read just now by Nina in response to Howard: "I agree, a drop of common sense won't do harm. Remember, a moment of awareness is o so brief and comes in between a lot of thinking of people and circumstances. That thinking is not to be avoided, it is natural. So there is no danger of moving away from worldly life. Parents will take care of their children, they may even be more careful, not negligent, less thinking of their own pleasures, when satipatthaana is developed in daily life." I think the same idea applies here. Any little understanding of craving and conceit which may arise in between thoughts about Dhamma, far from stopping one from going ahead with the intended activity, it in fact *adds* to the possibility of right understanding arising subsequently. However rather than this, for some it is `wrong understanding' of these two dhammas which seem to arise and what then follows would by the same principle, be encouraging of more wrong understanding. ------------------- Yes, well said, thanks to all of you. Ken H #89101 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:42 am Subject: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta kenhowardau Hi Howard, Thanks for the warning: ---------------- H: > Warning! Warning! Sarcasm ahead. Proceed with caution! --------------- Warning! Warning! Same old response ahead! (I could do this in my sleep.) :-) ----------------------- H: > I suppose what the lowly "man in the street" has as an advantage over those of us who know the "real Dhamma" is that he only talks about things that he is actually familiar with. For him, foolish, benighted, ordinary guy that he is, he's prone to such mistakes as thinking that "craving" is the actual, ordinary wanting of something that he observes all the time, that hurts so much, and thinking that by a variety of means he can avoid it or at least lessen it by various means. (If only he knew that lobha, is something he's never really observed! Foolish guy - the Pali name should have told him that right off!) ------------------------ The proverbial reasonable man in the street knows what the word 'craving' means. He could give us the dictionary definition. He does not know, however, that craving is lobha, a conditioned paramattha dhamma. He is ignorant of the Dhamma. He does not know, for example, that lobha arises only with either pleasant or equanimous feeling. The ordinary man does not understand the momentary nature of reality. Therefore, he believes there is some*one* in the present moment that will continue on to experience other moments (in which, for example, the results of present craving will be experienced). Foolish indeed! But understandably so, given the circumstances. ----------------------------- H: > Why, in reading suttas, he might get it into his head that the Buddha actually taught actions precisely aimed at heading off craving about to arise, and reducing and even cutting off craving already arisen. ------------------------------ Action (in the conventional sense that you are using it) is something that some*one* does in order to experience future results. Why would a Buddha, the teacher of anatta (no *one*), teach actions? The very idea is absurd! It is out of the question! It would never happen! But the ordinary man in the street does not know that. He thinks the Buddha *must* have taught conventional actions. -------------------------------------- H: > He might even think there is training - mere pointless rites and rituals, of course, according to "those in the know" - that he might engage in to make his mind increasingly resistant to the gnawing, oft- appearing, pain-engendering antagonist he actually is aware of. ------------------------------------- Moments of calm might be increasingly more developed, and increasingly resistant, than preceding moments of calm, but there is a new set of dhammas in every moment. Nothing continues-on to become more developed. If the ordinary, reasonable, man in the street knew that do you think he would look to "actions" for the way out of suffering? No, he would look to the Dhamma. The Dhamma is the only teaching [of a way out] that deals with the ultimate, present moment, reality. ----------------------------------------- H: > Silly man, living in his man-in-the-street fool's paradise. ----------------------------------------- That's right; poor silly man! Hey, that's us we're talking about! :-) Ken H #89102 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Scholasticism & hair splitting egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/8/13 Alex : > Dear Sarah, Ken, Scott or anyone: > > Please explain the part about sitting crosslegged. > Please explain the MN111 about Sariputta entering 9 Jhanas. > You should not expect an answer, because the people you have asked are mainly interested in the psychological theories that were popular in Sri Lanka around 500 AD. Jhanas were well out of vogue by then, it was mainly tooth relics and cuttings from the Bodhi tree that kept the sangha in business those days. Cheers Herman #89103 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:20 am Subject: Re: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta egberdina Hi KenH, 2008/8/16 kenhowardau : > Hi Howard, > Action (in the conventional sense that you are using it) is something > that some*one* does in order to experience future results. Why would > a Buddha, the teacher of anatta (no *one*), teach actions? The very > idea is absurd! It is out of the question! It would never happen! > But the ordinary man in the street does not know that. He thinks the > Buddha *must* have taught conventional actions. > How insane that this Buddha guy could actually teach. Or is teaching another one of those words that means conventional action to the reasonable person, but something entirely different to the arahants that have graduated from the class of KS? How's nibbana today, Ken? Cheers Herman #89104 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:08 am Subject: Re: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/16/2008 6:42:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, Thanks for the warning: ---------------- H: > Warning! Warning! Sarcasm ahead. Proceed with caution! --------------- Warning! Warning! Same old response ahead! (I could do this in my sleep.) :-) ----------------------- H: > I suppose what the lowly "man in the street" has as an advantage over those of us who know the "real Dhamma" is that he only talks about things that he is actually familiar with. For him, foolish, benighted, ordinary guy that he is, he's prone to such mistakes as thinking that "craving" is the actual, ordinary wanting of something that he observes all the time, that hurts so much, and thinking that by a variety of means he can avoid it or at least lessen it by various means. (If only he knew that lobha, is something he's never really observed! Foolish guy - the Pali name should have told him that right off!) ------------------------ The proverbial reasonable man in the street knows what the word 'craving' means. He could give us the dictionary definition. He does not know, however, that craving is lobha, a conditioned paramattha dhamma. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: By observation, he may come to see that craving is conditioned. By only reading books, he may come to believe it on the basis of authority or reason. But if he is fortunate, that reading will induce him to begin to pay attention, and then he has a chance of actually seeing. -------------------------------------------------- He is ignorant of the Dhamma. He does not know, for example, that lobha arises only with either pleasant or equanimous feeling. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't find craving at all pleasant, Ken! I don't find it neutral either. I find it unpleasant - ranging from mildly so to intensely so. Of course, *what* I crave is almost always something I find pleasant - even the mere thought of it. But the craving itself is uncomfortable, unpleasant, distressful. If Abhidhamma teaches otherwise, then, in that respect, I dismiss Abhidhamma. --------------------------------------------------- The ordinary man does not understand the momentary nature of reality. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Ken, for the most part we have a set of beliefs, not true understanding. Recently, I've found that I seem to truly see the radical non-remaining of everything. If I'm not mistaken, that is an advance beyond mere believing. But I've got to tell you that I think I am quite the ordinary man-on-the-street, as I believe most if not all of us here are. Those of us who think we are not simply because of what we have read and believe are, IMO, quite deluded. --------------------------------------------------------- Therefore, he believes there is some*one* in the present moment that will continue on to experience other moments (in which, for example, the results of present craving will be experienced). Foolish indeed! But understandably so, given the circumstances. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: A belief to the contrary is preferable, to be sure, but still it is only a belief. Until it becomes much more than belief, the belief can be supplanted. Beliefs are a dime a dozen (to use a Yankee-ism) ------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------- H: > Why, in reading suttas, he might get it into his head that the Buddha actually taught actions precisely aimed at heading off craving about to arise, and reducing and even cutting off craving already arisen. ------------------------------ Action (in the conventional sense that you are using it) is something that some*one* does in order to experience future results. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Depends on what you mean by some "one". Has someone written the post to which I'm replying? If properly understood, of course someone has. -------------------------------------------------- Why would a Buddha, the teacher of anatta (no *one*), teach actions? The very idea is absurd! It is out of the question! It would never happen! ------------------------------------------------- Howard: You need to read more suttas, Ken. (Geez, who was the Buddha talking to when he said "Come!" when inviting a layperson to go forth?) It is the absence of a soul, self, core, and identity in everything that is the teaching of anatta, not the absence of groups of interrelated phenomena acting in concert. --------------------------------------------------- But the ordinary man in the street does not know that. He thinks the Buddha *must* have taught conventional actions. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha, for the most part, taught worldlings, "men-in-the-street," and he sure did teach them to act in specific ways. Do this, don't do that ... all the time! ------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- H: > He might even think there is training - mere pointless rites and rituals, of course, according to "those in the know" - that he might engage in to make his mind increasingly resistant to the gnawing, oft- appearing, pain-engendering antagonist he actually is aware of. ------------------------------------- Moments of calm might be increasingly more developed, and increasingly resistant, than preceding moments of calm, but there is a new set of dhammas in every moment. Nothing continues-on to become more developed. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Hah! I agree with that! ------------------------------------------------------ If the ordinary, reasonable, man in the street knew that do you think he would look to "actions" for the way out of suffering? No, he would look to the Dhamma. The Dhamma is the only teaching [of a way out] that deals with the ultimate, present moment, reality. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: "Looking to the Dhamma" amounts to speech recognition, and it is a very "conventional" activity. I don't know why you refuse to see that reading, thinking over, and discussing is as conventional as anything gets! ---------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- H: > Silly man, living in his man-in-the-street fool's paradise. ----------------------------------------- That's right; poor silly man! Hey, that's us we're talking about! :-) ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh! A glimmer of insight! ;-) ---------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #89105 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:58 am Subject: Programmed Behavior ? indriyabala Dear Sarah, - Please allow me to explain more clearly in red and gold. >S: I do hope you're joking and that conditions change so that you don't feel it's a complete waste of time trying to communicate with me :-)) ..... T: Yes and no. People who read your emails over the years will agree with me that Sarah is a good person, who is "cool" like a cucumber. There is no trace of frustration, ill will or even sarcasm in any post she has written. So they might wonder why this chap Tep is frustrated about. To them I must be out of my mind! I would suggest they read our last few posts carefully to find out; it is a long history though. .... >S: And now I'm not sure if the problem is the 'consistency' of my replies or the 'flip-flopping' in them. Either way, I'm sure I must be a poor communicator and that it must be frustrating trying to have a dhamma discussion with me. ..... T: Both; even the consistency itself is a flip-flop! The frustrating consistency of your replies is seen in the repetition of the same programmed reply (possibly taken from a library of Questions and Answers you have saved on your computer). The flip-flopping indicates your uncertainty (on a certain issue that is not yet clear to you) and unwillingness to accept that you don't know the answer. The stubborn unwillingness to accept that you don't know something leads to repeated denials (closed ear; closed eyes; closed mind). Those repeated denials condition my frustration. Then our discussion stops. I apologize for showing the frustration; no more from now. In summary, as a person you are exceptional; but the programmed consistency, frequent denials, and flip-floppings are discouraging to me. ...... >S: In fairness, I think I can only respond to points or answer questions raised according to my understanding of the teachings. T: That is extremely important : whose teachings? If we do not have the same "teachings" in mind, then it is hopeless to have a fruitful discussion with no frustration. ................. >S: Perhaps I misunderstood some of your comments or (rhetorical?) questions as suggesting a response was called for. I'm probably doing the same again here. Put it down to my English sense of politeness, if you like. Anyway, no need for you to respond further to any 'dead- end' comments of mine. Meanwhile, I look forward to reading your further interesting discussions with Alex and others who appear more open-minded to you. I'm sure we'll talk again later, Tep. I always value the discussions even if you find them too frustrating. Anyway, this has been a long thread, so it's good for us both to have a rest from it. Thank you for all your input. T: Thank you for your reply with politeness (inherited and programmed?). Sure, we'll talk again, but please let it be about anything but "the teachings". Tep === #89106 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:35 am Subject: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta indriyabala Hello KenH (Herman, Howard), - Your reply to Howard below is so extraordinarily contradicting to the "conventional" Buddhist belief that it motivates me to write this email to inform. > KenH: Action (in the conventional sense that you are using it) > is something that some*one* does in order to experience future > results. Why would a Buddha, the teacher of anatta (no *one*), > teach actions? The very idea is absurd! It is out of the question! > It would never happen! > But the ordinary man in the street does not know that. He thinks the > Buddha *must* have taught conventional actions. > >Herman: How insane that this Buddha guy could actually teach. Or is teaching another one of those words that means conventional action to the reasonable person, but something entirely different to the arahants that have graduated from the class of KS? >How's nibbana today, Ken? .......................... T: Let me give you a quick brush of the conventional Buddhist belief on "action". An action is a kamma. There are bodily action, verbal acton, and mental action. The anatta principle does not deny kamma; it is about the mental attitude that lets go of attachment to the body and mind or the khandhas namely, 'this is not mine', 'this is not me', 'this is not my self'. Any self view is mental formations, one of the five khandhas that are anicca, dukkha, and anatta. The Buddha did not teach "no one, no action" like you have consistently (and boringly) claimed for a long, long time. Sincerely, Tep === #89108 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] (some) Avijja & Conceit -> are present, even in Anagamis nilovg Dear Alex, Op 15-aug-2008, om 23:33 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > The conceit and feeling of "I am" is present even for Anagamis. > > Again to expect one to fully let go off conceit prior to perfecting > Samadhi & Panna of Arahatship level, is like expecting to arrive to > the destination before getting there in the first place. ------- N: I did not have the above in mind when writing my post to you. I was thinking of the wrong view of self, not of conceit. Wrong view has to go first and we can begin thinking in the correct way about sati and satipatthana, that is, understanding that sati cannot be manipulated, that it arises because of its own conditions. We have to understand: what is wrong view and when does it occur? Nina. #89109 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:40 am Subject: Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream abhidhammika Dear Herman, Howard, Alex, Phil, Swee Boon and all How are you? When I wrote: "The Buddha sometimes described his teachings as 'Atakkaavacaro, beyond verbalization'. Sudden insight in my dream belongs to the category of falling beyond verbalization." Herman asked: `So why did you tell us about it? In my original forwarded message, I wrote: "Here is another posting of a rare remarkable experience in my dream." There are people who might be interested to read unusual dreams related to the Buddha's teachings and the experiences of Buddhist practitioners of samatha and vipassanaa. For example, in response to this latest dream, Howard has kindly posted his own dream he saw in the night of 14 August 2008, which is unusually remarkable and deserves serious repeated reading. Herman also articulated the following: "I think what may also be asked is: Of what value is this sudden insight? Clearly, it can be of no value to anybody else, since you cannot express it. So, more precisely, of what inexpressible value is this sudden insight to you?" Herman, if I remembered it correctly, you once concurred with Ken H about you both being not Buddhists. For non-Buddhists, the very concept of something being beyond verbalization (Atakkaavacaro) might have been very difficult to handle. Now, Herman seemed to want to know even the value of sudden insight. This reminds me of the first statement of Pa.ticcasamuppaado, the Dependent Causation. My advice to Herman is that you need to become a Buddhist first before you were able to think like a Buddhist (Sammaasankappo, the Right Thinking). When you become a Buddhist and think like a Buddhist, do not stop just there. You need to do the Buddhist things as well, for example, the Right Action, the Right Effort among other things. As the sudden insight is the preserve of advanced practitioners of samatha and vipassanaa, you are also strongly urged to undertake the formal practice of the Right Recollection (sammasati) and the Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi). Unless you can think like a Buddhist and do like a Buddhist practitioner, you won't be able to fathom the concept of sudden insight, let alone its value. So, for the time being, you need to fulfil the first requirements of thinking like a Buddhist and doing like a Buddhist. When you have undertaken those requirements for becoming Buddhist practitioners, please let me know. Cheers! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #89110 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:42 am Subject: Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream nidive Hi Abhidhammika Suan Who is High Up Above & Beyond Verbalization, HOW ARE YOU? > There are people who might be interested to read unusual dreams > related to the Buddha's teachings and the experiences of Buddhist > practitioners of samatha and vipassanaa. > > For example, in response to this latest dream, Howard has kindly > posted his own dream he saw in the night of 14 August 2008, which > is unusually remarkable and deserves serious repeated reading. You don't ever obtain Dhamma insights through dreams. This was never taught by the Buddha. You are expounding an alien doctrine. It's funny that Howard was able to verbalize his unusually remarkable dream while you were unable to verbalize yours. Your "insight" must be so much deeper and stronger than Howard's. It's a great pity that I could not read a report of your unutterable dream. Your utterance could have saved thousands from samsara. I guess I have to settle for Howard's lesser report. > Herman also articulated the following: > > "I think what may also be asked is: Of what value is this sudden > insight? Clearly, it can be of no value to anybody else, since you > cannot express it. So, more precisely, of what inexpressible value > is this sudden insight to you?" > > Herman, if I remembered it correctly, you once concurred with Ken H > about you both being not Buddhists. As far as I know, Herman is not asking you for any advice. The question he asked of you is: So, more precisely, of what inexpressible value is this sudden insight to you? So, what is your purpose for announcing the attainment of your sudden insight? It doesn't benefit anyone in anyway since nobody could have even "superficial access" to your insight. It really doesn't serve any purpose other than to massage your ego. > As the sudden insight is the preserve of advanced practitioners of > samatha and vipassanaa, you are also strongly urged to undertake the > formal practice of the Right Recollection (sammasati) and the Right > Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi). This is the first time I have heard of a self-confessed "advanced practitioner of samatha and vipassana" obtaining Dhamma insights while dreaming! What a delusion! Get off your high horse and stop the pretense. If this is what "bodhiology" is, it's all so wrong! It's no more than palm reading, or astrology, or whatever ..., disguised under the name of the Buddha Dhamma. Swee Boon #89111 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:09 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 6, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 6. In Kandy the venerable Piyadassi Thera was leading the discussions with mettå and a great deal of patience. He understood which terms used in the discussions people would find difficult and therefore he asked for more precise definitions. “Right understanding” was one of the terms he asked us to explain. What is right understanding? There are many levels of right understanding, in Pali: sammå-diììhi, which is the cetasika (mental factor) of amoha (non-delusion) or paññå. When we are generous, the kusala citta may arise with or without right understanding. We may give because it is our nature to give, without any understanding of what kusala is, what kamma and vipåka (deeds and their results) are. We may also give with right understanding of cause and effect. It is the same with the kusala that observes síla: it may arise with or without right understanding. As we have seen, the citta which develops samatha must always be accompanied by right understanding. There has to be right understanding of the meditation subject of samatha. This subject should be the right condition for the citta to become calm, to become temporarily free from attachment, aversion and ignorance. Right understanding of the level of samatha knows the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta and it knows when these types of citta arise. However, it does not know kusala citta, akusala citta and the other phenomena as they are: as elements devoid of self. The right understanding that is developed in vipassanå is of a higher level: it sees nåma and rúpa as not self. This kind of understanding will be able to eradicate wrong view and the other defilements. Right understanding which is developed in vipassanå sees, for example, visible object as only a reality, no thing or being in it. It sees visible object as not self. One may really believe that there is a “self” and then there is wrong view of realities. So long as paññå has not eradicated wrong view we are inclined to take realities for self. We may have intellectual understanding of the truth but it is still difficult to realize visible object as only a rúpa when it appears. We have to be mindful of visible object when it appears, of seeing when it appears and of all the other phenomena over and over again, during countless lives. We may remind ourselves that it is not a person, not a thing which is seen. That is intellectual understanding and we should know that it is not mindfulness. Intellectual understanding arises because we listened to the Dhamma, it is conditioned, not self. Intellectual understanding is a condition for the arising of sati. When there is sati there can be “study” of the realities which appear and this is the beginning of paññå, wisdom. Khun Sujin reminded us many times: “Is there no seeing now? Study it. Otherwise pannñå cannot grow.” ***** Nina. #89112 From: "colette" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:11 am Subject: can of dead worms, worms you say, what does Pink Floyd have to say about Worms? ksheri3 Good Morning Herman and the Group, Myyyyy, aren't we the "crafty" one this morning. ..... Don't ya love Candrakiirti's arguments for your tired old foundations of "status quo" and "tradition"? C'mon, seriously, show me how it is anywhere near fisably possible for a blind person to have dreams in the same manor and context that a person born with sight has? C'mon. Seriously, aren't you substantiating the Theravadan movement as a means of continuous flow of revenue, EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES THROUGH THEIR APPLICATION OF HEIRARCHY? I can certainly tell you that there is FOUNDATION IN THE TEACHINGS OF SEMDE AND LONGDE. As a matter of fact, your body, as an empty sephira or vessel, an example of Shunyata, will shatter when "divine light" is connected to it or transfused to it, or injected with it, etc. I could go on but don't have the time right now. Thanx for the example and the easy piece of meat just laying around in the jungle. As Jethro Tull advised: "Just say the word and the boys will be right there" toodles, colette #89113 From: "colette" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:30 am Subject: Re: Meditation in the suttas. ... Flood of Sutta Quotes Up the Wrong Tree ksheri3 Hi Tep, Pleasant surprise finding your response. > > But hasn't the truth ever occured to you, Alex, that Ken never ever > > reads them? > > > colette:-is-the-problem:-the-existance-of-fear-OR-is-the-problem- that- > Ken-may-choose-to-not-read? > > D.O.-please:-What-is-the-CAUSATION-of-Ken's-fear?-Is-it-failure-of- > result.-I-mean,-is-he-affraid-of-what-he-may-find-that-may-just- > unlock-countless-doors-OBSCURING-he-enlightenment?-We-find-this- > behavior-in-the-"Idealist"-schools-of-Buddhism-that-fear-to-explore- > Shunyata,-for-instance.-Is-the-fear-a-direct-confrontation-with-the- > Buddha's-own-words-concerning-Laziness-or-Sloth-&-Topor?-What-could- > the-fear-be-RESULTANT-from? > > T: Ken is very negative about meditation because his previous > meditative experience was bitter. colette: "CALLING IGNORANCE" "WOULD IGNORANCE PLEASE PICK UP THE NEAREST WHITE COURTESY PHONEY LINE ....." Sorry, I must've missed something. Where did ken say he had a bad experience with meditation? Where did ken say that he has bitter membories of the practice of meditation? I'm at the point that your conception of Ken is Wrong View based on Wrong Belief. ------------------------------------------ So he threw the suttas away with > Buddhist meditation (somewhat like pouring the baby down the drain > with the dirty bath water, so to speak). colette: fine, okay. Why is it that sooooooo many members of the status quo rely so heavily on the application of throwing the baby out with the bath water? I never used that phrase nor had any need for it UNTIL I ran into the scholars debating the "closed union shop" of the esoteric order of the Golden DAwn in Los Angeles. the more I hear that useless phrase the more it does nothing more than disgust me, avert me. How can yo make the leap of faith that his belief in the suttas was filed with his belief in the practice of meditation? What is his belief in the suttas? What is his belief in meditation? ------------------------------------ However, Ken himself can > answer your questions better than I. > BTW Is the fear to explore 'Shunyata' similar to the fear of > the "Self Demon" that Sarah frequently lets out to scare meditators > like me and Alex? > colette: WHAT? man, you gotta pull away from this status quo ...... I ponder if you even know the least little bit concerning the Doctrine of Shunyata or MADHYAMIKA, the Middle-Path. I'm in the middle of an application of Candrakiirti's work so you'll have to pardon my closed mindedness gotta go. toodles, colette #89114 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream egberdina Hi Suan (and colette), 2008/8/17 abhidhammika : > > > Dear Herman, Howard, Alex, Phil, Swee Boon and all > > How are you? From one perspective I am well. I am content with the fact that at present it is relatively easy to quench cravings as they arise. From another perspective I am not so well. For seeing clearly that my life is nothing more than endlessly repeating and meaningless sequences of craving/satisfaction leaves me discontented. So I try and avoid seeing that clearly as much as I can. Which means I am intentionally ignorant, and I just keep doing what I'm doing. > Herman also articulated the following: > > "I think what may also be asked is: Of what value is this sudden > insight? Clearly, it can be of no value to anybody else, since you > cannot express it. So, more precisely, of what inexpressible value > is this sudden insight to you?" > > Herman, if I remembered it correctly, you once concurred with Ken H > about you both being not Buddhists. > > For non-Buddhists, the very concept of something being beyond > verbalization (Atakkaavacaro) might have been very difficult to > handle. If you looked beyond your narrow area of interest you would find other traditions that understand the point quite well. In the tradition I come from, for example, the name of G-D is not to be represented, for it is well understood that G-D is beyond conceptualisation. To name G-D is the grave error of judgment that seeks to bring G-D down to one's own level of understanding. Now, Herman seemed to want to know even the value of sudden > insight. This reminds me of the first statement of > Pa.ticcasamuppaado, the Dependent Causation. What is relevant here is the 10 stage DO, where it all begins with name and form mutually conditioning each other. Have you had an experience that was before name and form? From the rest of your advice, you seem to be saying that all others should be like you in having this nameless/formless sudden insight. Allow me to ask you again: What is the value to you of this sudden insight? Has it cut off craving at the roots? If it has, then I am very happy for you, and I would certainly want to emulate that achievement. If it hasn't, (and I cannot see that it has), then perhaps a 12 stage DO applies to you as well, intentionally or otherwise, and we are still just: ....... lost souls Swimming in a fish bowl, Year after year, Running over the same old ground. What have we found? The same old fears. (the boys from Pink Floyd dreamt as well :-)) May we all be free from craving Herman #89115 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream scottduncan2 Dear All, "....... lost souls Swimming in a fish bowl, Year after year, Running over the same old ground. What have we found? The same old fears." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1moiym6-Nk Peace, Scott. #89116 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:11 pm Subject: Re: (some) Avijja & Conceit -> are present, even in Anagamis truth_aerator >Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Alex, > N:sati cannot be manipulated, that it arises because of its own >conditions. Dear Nina and all, Where did the Buddha say that? Sati CAN be manipulated, by manipulating conditions. We can input proper or improper conditions to increase or decrease sati. Please don't teach something that hints at fatalism (or determinism). Best wishes, Alex #89117 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:26 pm Subject: Warning - KenH's wrong view MN60 truth_aerator Dear KenH and all, > > KenH: Action (in the conventional sense that you are using it) > > is something that some*one* does in order to experience future > > results. Why would a Buddha, the teacher of anatta (no *one*), > > teach actions? The very idea is absurd! It is out of the question! > > It would never happen! > > But the ordinary man in the street does not know that. He thinks the > > Buddha *must* have taught conventional actions. "Because there actually is action, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next action' is his wrong view. Because there actually is action, when he is resolved that 'There is no action,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is action, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no action,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is action, when he is says that 'There is no action,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who teach action. Because there actually is action, when he persuades another that 'There is no action,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.060.than.html KenH, how clearer do you need it? Best wishes, Alex #89118 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream indriyabala Hi all, - Thanks to Herman for being the first to present this poem, and also to Scott who brought it up for the second look. ....... lost souls Swimming in a fish bowl, Year after year, Running over the same old ground. What have we found? The same old fears. The following is dedicated to our DSG members. ... ... lost minds Searching for 'not self', Year after year, Discussing over the same old topics. What have we found? The same old delusion. Tep === #89119 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:11 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,294, 295 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 294. (b) 'And now there is a fivefold fruit' means what is given in the text beginning with consciousness and ending with feeling, according as it is said: 'Here [in the present becoming] there is rebirth-linking, which is 'consciousness'; there is descent [into the womb], which is 'mentality-materiality'; there is sensitivity, which is 'sense base'; there is what is touched, which is 'contact'; there is what is felt, which is 'feeling'; thus these five things here in the [present] rebirth-process becoming have their conditions in kamma done in the past' (Ps.i,52). 295. Herein, there is 'rebirth-linking, which is consciousness' means that it is what is called 'rebirth-linking' because it arises linking the next becoming that is consciousness. 'There is descent [into the womb], which is mentality-materiality' means that it is what consists in the descent of the material and immaterial states into a womb, their arrival and entry as it were, that is mentality-materiality. 'There is sensitivity, which is sense base': this is said of the five bases beginning with the eye. 'There is what is touched, which is contact' means that it is what is arisen when an object is touched or in the touching of it, that is contact. 'There is what is felt, which is feeling' means that it is what is felt as results [of kamma] that is arisen together with rebirth-linking consciousness, or with the contact that has the sixfold base as its condition, that is feeling. Thus should the meaning be understood. ******************* 294. idaani phalapa~ncakanti vi~n~naa.naadivedanaavasaana.m paa.liya.m aagatameva. yathaaha ``idha pa.tisandhi vi~n~naa.na.m, okkanti naamaruupa.m, pasaado aayatana.m, phu.t.tho phasso, vedayita.m vedanaa, ime pa~nca dhammaa idhuupapattibhavasmi.m purekatassa kammassa paccayaa''ti (pa.ti0 1.47). 295. tattha pa.tisandhi vi~n~naa.nanti ya.m bhavantarapa.tisandhaanavasena uppannattaa pa.tisandhiiti vuccati, ta.m vi~n~naa.na.m. okkanti naamaruupanti yaa gabbhe ruupaaruupadhammaana.m okkanti aagantvaa pavisana.m viya, ida.m naamaruupa.m. pasaado aayatananti ida.m cakkhaadipa~ncaayatanavasena vutta.m. phu.t.tho phassoti yo aaramma.na.m phu.t.tho phusanto uppanno, aya.m phasso. vedayita.m vedanaati ya.m pa.tisandhivi~n~naa.nena vaa sa.laayatanapaccayena vaa phassena saha uppanna.m vipaakavedayita.m, saa vedanaati evamattho veditabbo. #89120 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/8/17 Scott : > Dear All, > > "....... lost souls > Swimming in a fish bowl, > Year after year, > Running over the same old ground. > What have we found? > The same old fears." > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1moiym6-Nk > > Peace, > > Scott. > Now that was a commentary I appreciate. Nice one :-) Cheers Herman #89121 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream egberdina Hi Tep, 2008/8/17 Tep Sastri : > Hi all, - > > Thanks to Herman for being the first to present this poem, and also > to Scott who brought it up for the second look. > > ....... lost souls > Swimming in a fish bowl, > Year after year, > Running over the same old ground. > What have we found? > The same old fears. > > The following is dedicated to our DSG members. > > ... ... lost minds > Searching for 'not self', > Year after year, > Discussing over the same old topics. > What have we found? > The same old delusion. > Not that it will happen, but what is your wish for dsg? Cheers Herman #89122 From: "colette" Date: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream ksheri3 HELLO-HERMAN, Pardon-the-hyphens-but-I-have-spacebar. A-Jew,-glad-to-have-you-aboard! As-I-work-this-Dzogchen,-etc,-I-was-going-to-use-some-warnings-about- The-Tree-Of-Life-(Isreal-Regardie)-or-The-Tree-Of-Knowledge- (Kabbalism).-The-characteristics-are-unmistakable-and-the-potential- for-that-serpent-to-kick-any-body-on-it's-tree,-off-it's-tree,-are- rather-high.-The-current-might-be-turned-on. toodles, colette #89123 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:20 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 6, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, I find the word “study” very effective. The word “study” is a translation of the Påli term “sikkhå”. Sikkhå can also be translated as “training”. The word “study” reminds me that mindfulness without knowing anything, without knowing the reality which appears now, is not helpful for the development of right understanding. “Study” reminds me that right understanding is only beginning to develop and that there has to be study countless times before realities can be seen as they are. There are many degrees of right understanding and it develops very gradually. We should not be discouraged that mindfulness and understanding seldom arise. The fact that we are interested in the Dhamma today and that we listen today shows that we have conditions for further development of right understanding. We are likely to have listened in former lives. Khun Sujin said: “Think of all those people who listened in the Buddha’s time and did not attain enlightenment; where are they now?” They had conditions for the development of pa~n~nå, but pa~n~nå needed more development; it had not been developed to the degree necessary for the attainment of enlightenment. We may have been one of those who listened to the Buddha, and now paññå needs to be developed more. When we were walking along the beach one of our friends remarked that he was worried that he could not become a sotåpanna in this life. Those who have not attained enlightenment run the risk of an unhappy rebirth. Rebirth may occur in a plane where one cannot develop satipatthåna. I had been preoccupied with the same question. Khun Sujin answered: “Today we are in the human plane and we are discussing Dhamma. We may have had births as an animal, but that is forgotten now. Sati which is accumulated today is never lost. It is a condition for future development. There can be unhappy births again, but why should we worry about it?” She spoke about the Bodhisatta’s horse Kanthaka. He had carried the Bodhisatta outside the palace, after he had renounced worldly life. Kanthaka could not develop wisdom in that life since he was an animal. But he was reborn in a deva plane where he developed wisdom and attained enlightenment. We cannot control anything which happens, but when there are conditions for right understanding to develop, it will work its way. ******* Nina. #89124 From: "colette" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream ksheri3 Hi-Suan, It-seems-our-friend-Herman-has-placed-the-ball-dead-center-in-your- court.-Herman-EXCELLENT-REPARTIE!-He's-rather-well-spoken-since-he's- applying-the-ABhidhamma-technique-of-going-after-the-root-causes.-I- could-parley-his-thrust-here-but-the-point-has-been-made-that-he-is- attacking-the-root-cause-of-suffering.-I'll-stick-with-the-focus-I- have-on/with-Candrakiirti's-work-right-now-since-Shunyata-is- something-that-never-ceases-to-amaze-me. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > From one perspective I am well. I am content with the fact that at > present it is relatively easy to quench cravings as they arise. From > another perspective I am not so well. For seeing clearly that my life > is nothing more than endlessly repeating and meaningless sequences of > craving/satisfaction leaves me discontented. colette:-I-love-your-position-here.-You-clearly-express-your- dissatisfaction-with-life-and-you-have-cognized-your-cyclical- behavior-of-repeating-your-mistakes-over-and-over. Madhyamika,-please.-Maybe-the-cause-of-repeating-the-same-mistakes- is/or-can-be-found-in-the-process-of-cognition-where-you-cognize-then- mentally-rationalize.-The-problem-may-be-nothing-more-than-Miss- Interpretation-herself-giving-you-directions-to-happiness.-No,-if- Miss-Interpretation-gave-directions-then-she-would-be-Miss- Information,-wouldn't-she? ------------------------------------- So I try and avoid seeing > that clearly as much as I can. Which means I am intentionally > ignorant, and I just keep doing what I'm doing. > colette:-I-think-that's-a-standard-organized-religious-way-of-dealing- with-the-truely-ugliness-of-reality-and-the-society-we-are-entrapped- in. > > Herman also articulated the following: > > > > "I think what may also be asked is: Of what value is this sudden > > insight? Clearly, it can be of no value to anybody else, since you > > cannot express it. colette:-Now-we're-gettin'-some-where.-So,-this-is-the-dodge-by- society-to-chastise-and-mock-me-for-my-inability-to-express-the-arts- (although-black-arts-such-as-"astral-projection"-et-al)-in-a-form- that-is-comprehensible-and-understandable-to-society. ..... ------------------------------------------ So, more precisely, of what inexpressible value > > is this sudden insight to you?" > > colette:-good-attack-strategy!-I-don't-know-if-Suan-will-come-up-with- a-qualified-answer-here. ------------------------------- > > Herman, if I remembered it correctly, you once concurred with Ken H > > about you both being not Buddhists. > > > > For non-Buddhists, the very concept of something being beyond > > verbalization (Atakkaavacaro) might have been very difficult to > > handle. > > If you looked beyond your narrow area of interest you would find other > traditions that understand the point quite well. In the tradition I > come from, for example, the name of G-D is not to be represented, for > it is well understood that G-D is beyond conceptualisation. To name > G-D is the grave error of judgment that seeks to bring G-D down to > one's own level of understanding. > colette:-Not-being-Jewish,-myself-and-having-to-rely-upon-others-all- the-time-to-translate-Hebrew-and-other-things-in-the-Jewish-faith- structure-I'll-have-a-little-go-with-this. Suan,.... This-concept-called-"god"-is-something-that-you-cannot-possibly- formulate-or-translate-into-words.-I,-myself,-have-refused-to-really- talk-about-my-first-Near-Death-Experience,-since-it-was-so-traumatic- and-profound......(Herman,-ever- listen-to-the-Pink-Floyd-song-Sheep,-from-the-Animals-cd?)..... This-is-a-description-of-the-transience-of-reality,-of-the-moment,-of- the-rupa,-of-the-nama,-etc.-The-second-you-try-to-pigeon-hole-this- thing-called-"god"-then-you've-made-the-fatal-mistake-in-the-moment- that-you-cannot-get-back.-Like-all-citta,-the-moment-is-gone.-Now-we- can-get-into-the-rationalization-of-whether-the-moment-actually- existed-long-enough-to-be-here. ----------------------------------------- I-have-to-go-but-enjoyed-this-immensely!-Hopefully-the-discussion- will-develope-into-something-more-explosive-that-I-can-work-with-on- Monday. toodles, colette #89125 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream indriyabala Hi Herman, - Good for you to ask. > Not that it will happen, but what is your wish for dsg? > > Cheers > > > Herman > T: I wish that they drop the view 'Only this is right'. Your question is closely related to another question : why is Tep still hanging around for so long? It is a challenge. I cannot leave until I find the way to overcome it peacefully. To overcome it peacefully is, strangely enough, the consequence of letting go of self. Cheers, Tep === #89126 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:59 am Subject: Re: Meditation in the suttas. ... Flood of Sutta Quotes Up the Wrong Tree indriyabala Hi Colette (and KenH), - I maintain that only KenH is in the best position to answer your questions : >Colette: >Where did ken say he had a bad experience with meditation? Where did ken say that he has bitter membories of the practice of meditation? How can yo make the leap of faith that his belief in the suttas was filed with his belief in the practice of meditation? What is his belief in the suttas? What is his belief in meditation? ------------------------------------ T: However, you do have a good point : >C: I'm at the point that your conception of Ken is Wrong View based on Wrong Belief. T: It is also very likely that almost everything I think 'I see and I know' is also Wrong View. Now, focusing only on KenH, the question is : How do I find out if I have a wrong vew about him? Thank you both. Tep === #89127 From: "connie" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:01 am Subject: Vism.XVII,294, 295 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.699 "And Now a fivefold fruit," this is that which begins with consciousness and ends in feeling as mentioned in the Pali. As it is said: "Here rebirth is consciousness, descent is name-and-form, sensory organism is sense-organ, the being touched is touch, the being felt is feeling. Thus these five states here in rebirth-becoming are the cause of previous karma." {Ibid.} In that text, "rebirth is consciousness" is that consciousness which is called rebirth, because it arises by way of continuity through different becomings. "Descent is name-and-form" is that name-and-form which is a descent, as it were a coming and an entering into the matrix of states material and non-material. "Sensory organ is sense-organ - this is said by way of the five sense-organs, the eye and so on. "The being touched is touch": - that which is in touch with an object, and arises touching it, is touch. "The being felt is feeling"is the feeling which is felt as a result, having arisen together with rebirth-consciousness, or with touch conditioned by sixfold sense. Thus should the meaning be understood. #89128 From: "connie" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:33 am Subject: Sudden Insight In My Dream nichiconn dear dreamers, this thread reminds me of Sarah's side-note on the Sisters translations in #73715: "#73085, Bodhi has Vijayaa 'sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding', while Mrs RD has her 'sat down.....for siesta'!!" peace, connie #89129 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:49 am Subject: Re: Sudden Insight In My Dream scottduncan2 Dear Dreamers, For your interest: Sammohavinodanii 2056..."'Overcome by ape's drowsing' means sleeping with monkey sleep (makka.taniddaa); for just as monkey's sleep is easily broken, one who is sleeping with sleep which is easily broken because of being interspersed again and again with profitable, etc. consciousnesses, and in the occurence of which there is dipping again and again into the life continuum, sees dreams. Hence the dream is either profitable or unprofitable or indeterminate." Sutta Nipata 360. The Blessed One said: If ideas of the auspices, omens, dreams and signs are given up, Together with the corruptions of the auspices, that is the rightful going forth. [362. Yassa ma"ngalaa samuuhataa (iti bhagavaa) Uppaatasupinaa ca lakkha.naa ca, So ma"ngaladosavippahiino bhikkhu Sammaa so loke paribbajeyya.] 807. That which encountered in a dream, is not seen when awake, Likewise loved ones dead and gone are not seen. [811. Supinena yathaapi sa"ngata.m Pa.tibuddho puriso na passati, Evampi piyaayita.m jana.m Peta.m kaalakata.m na passati.] Sincerely, Scott. #89130 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (some) Avijja & Conceit -> are present, even in Anagamis nilovg Dear Alex, Op 17-aug-2008, om 3:11 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > N:sati cannot be manipulated, that it arises because of its own > >conditions. > > A.: Where did the Buddha say that? ------ N: He said that all conditioned phenomena are impermanent, that they fall away immediately. Moreover, there is a concurrence of several conditions for the arising of sati. They all have to fall in place at a particular moment so that sati can arise, and then it falls away immediately. Just a very short moment. How can it be manipulated when it is gone already? ------- A: > Sati CAN be manipulated, by manipulating > conditions. We can input proper or improper conditions to increase or > decrease sati. Please don't teach something that hints at fatalism (or > determinism). ------- N: Then the word manipulated is here not suitable. Conditions can be developed, namely, by listening, considering, understanding more what sati exactly is. It is understanding that matters above all. More understanding of realities. If there are not many moments of sati yet, it should not worry us. If we worry about it, it shows that the idea of self is at work. ------- Nina. #89131 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sudden Insight In My Dream upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 8/17/2008 12:49:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Dreamers, For your interest: Sammohavinodanii 2056..."'Overcome by ape's drowsing' means sleeping with monkey sleep (makka.taniddaa); for just as monkey's sleep is easily broken, one who is sleeping with sleep which is easily broken because of being interspersed again and again with profitable, etc. consciousnesses, and in the occurence of which there is dipping again and again into the life continuum, sees dreams. Hence the dream is either profitable or unprofitable or indeterminate." Sutta Nipata 360. The Blessed One said: If ideas of the auspices, omens, dreams and signs are given up, Together with the corruptions of the auspices, that is the rightful going forth. [362. Yassa ma"ngalaa samuuhataa (iti bhagavaa) Uppaatasupinaa ca lakkha.naa ca, So ma"ngaladosavippahiino bhikkhu Sammaa so loke paribbajeyya.] 807. That which encountered in a dream, is not seen when awake, Likewise loved ones dead and gone are not seen. [811. Supinena yathaapi sa"ngata.m Pa.tibuddho puriso na passati, Evampi piyaayita.m jana.m Peta.m kaalakata.m na passati.] Sincerely, Scott ============================== What do you infer/conclude from this? (If you have no opinion, or don't wish to convey one, of course that is fine. :-) With metta, Howard #89132 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (some) Avijja & Conceit -> are present, even in Anagamis upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Alex) - In a message dated 8/17/2008 2:11:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Alex, Op 17-aug-2008, om 3:11 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > N:sati cannot be manipulated, that it arises because of its own > >conditions. > > A.: Where did the Buddha say that? ------ N: He said that all conditioned phenomena are impermanent, that they fall away immediately. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: For sure the Buddha taught that all conditioned phenomena are impermanent. I also do believe that nothing remains (as is, and in the same relation to other phenomena) for any time at all - that is, change is instantaneous and constant. However, where did the Buddha teach that instantaneous falling away that I believe in? In any suttas? ------------------------------------------------- Moreover, there is a concurrence of several conditions for the arising of sati. They all have to fall in place at a particular moment so that sati can arise, and then it falls away immediately. Just a very short moment. How can it be manipulated when it is gone already? ------- A: > Sati CAN be manipulated, by manipulating > conditions. We can input proper or improper conditions to increase or > decrease sati. Please don't teach something that hints at fatalism (or > determinism). ------- N: Then the word manipulated is here not suitable. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I also think the word is not a good choice. The phrase 'intentionally conditioned' would be better. ------------------------------------------------- Conditions can be developed, namely, by listening, considering, understanding more what sati exactly is. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Why only that way? That is not something that the Buddha repeatedly instructed. For sure he said the Dhamma is to be listened to and contemplated, but he emphasized many other things as well - even more so, in fact. Most especially, intentionally attending to what arises in the moment, guarding the senses, and meditating were repeatedly urged. (And these activities are no more "conventional" than reading, listening, discussing, and thinking over.) ------------------------------------------- It is understanding that matters above all. ------------------------------------------ Howard: And how is understanding cultivated? Just by reading, listening, discussing, and thinking over? I truly think that is the baby level of cultivation of understanding. It is the way of the academic Buddhist. (But there aren't many ariyans to be found in Religious Studies departments, I fear. --------------------------------------------- More understanding of realities. If there are not many moments of sati yet, it should not worry us. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm, what about samvega, Nina? ------------------------------------------- If we worry about it, it shows that the idea of self is at work. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Or it shows that we are motivated by the urgency of putting an end to dukkha. --------------------------------------------- ------- Nina. ========================= With metta, Howard ________________________________________________________ Sn 2.10 Utthana Sutta Initiative Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu Alternate translation: _Ireland_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.10.irel.html) _Thanissaro_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.10.than.html) PTS: Sn 331-334 ____________________________________ Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. ____________________________________ Copyright © 2000 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 2000 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. ____________________________________ Get up! Sit up! What's your need for sleep? And what sleep is there for the afflicted, pierced by the arrow, oppressed? Get up! Sit up! Train firmly for the sake of peace, Don't let the king of death, seeing you heedless deceive you, bring you under his sway. Cross over the attachment to which human & heavenly beings, remain desiring tied. Don't let the moment pass by. Those for whom the moment is past grieve, consigned to hell. Heedless is dust, dust comes from heedlessness has heedlessness on its heels. Through heedfulness & clear knowing you'd remove your own sorrow. /Entrances to holiness are everywhere. The possibility of ascent is all the time, even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. There is no place without the Presence/ (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) #89133 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sudden Insight In My Dream scottduncan2 Dear Howard, H: "What do you infer/conclude from this?" Scott: Well, firstly, that the 'dream' seems to consist of the same elements of consciousness that are present during the waking day. (And this stands to reason, since true 'sleep' is said to consist of bhavanga citta, which as an other object altogether.) I don't know for sure, but since profitable consciousness was included in the list, that these mental events arising during monkey-sleep cannot include kusala citta is not established. Secondly, I think that dreams ought to have no more special status than waking consciousness, and that it is better not to dwell on or exalt them. Sincerely, Scott. #89134 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sudden Insight In My Dream upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - Thanks for your quick reply, Scott. :-) In a message dated 8/17/2008 3:50:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, H: "What do you infer/conclude from this?" Scott: Well, firstly, that the 'dream' seems to consist of the same elements of consciousness that are present during the waking day. --------------------------------------- Howard: I think that's so. In fact, most often dreams are fuzzier and more tanha-bound than waking states. There are clear exceptions to that, though. Wisdom *can* arise in dreams. ------------------------------------- (And this stands to reason, since true 'sleep' is said to consist of bhavanga citta, which as an other object altogether.) I don't know for sure, but since profitable consciousness was included in the list, that these mental events arising during monkey-sleep cannot include kusala citta is not established. ------------------------------------------ Howard: The way you put that is a drop convoluted, so I'm not certain I understand, but I *think* I agree. ;-) -------------------------------------------- Secondly, I think that dreams ought to have no more special status than waking consciousness, and that it is better not to dwell on or exalt them. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: As regards dreams in general, I quite agree. ------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ======================== With metta, Howard /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #89135 From: "colette" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:57 am Subject: Re: Meditation in the suttas. ... Flood of Sutta Quotes Up the Wrong Tree ksheri3 Good-Morning-Tep, You-are-definately-avoiding-many-issues-here! I-ponder-the-effectiveness-of-this-behavior-yet-I-go-on-whether-or- not-that-behavior-is-on-the-stage-of-life-with-me-performing-it's- part-in-this-tragik-comedy-we-plod-through. In-Fact-you-are-try-to-avoid-my-point-entirely-with-this-bit-that- only-kenH-can-answer-my-question. You-nor-I-nor-KenH-can-change-the-situation-since-it-has-arisen- functioned-then-ceased-and-now-only-exists-in-the-Past-Dharma.-You,- Tep,-made-accusations-and-characterisations-of-KenH-and-then- proceeded-to-manifest-a-post-on-your-hallucinations.-You-cannot- escape-that-observation-of-a-moment-arising/ceasing. > > I maintain that only KenH is in the best position to answer your > questions : > > >Colette: > >Where did ken say he had a bad experience with meditation? Where did > ken say that he has bitter membories of the practice of meditation? > How can yo make the leap of faith that his belief in the suttas was > filed with his belief in the practice of meditation? What is his > belief in the suttas? What is his belief in meditation? > ------------------------------------ > > T: However, you do have a good point : > > >C: I'm at the point that your conception of Ken is Wrong View based > on Wrong Belief. > > T: It is also very likely that almost everything I think 'I see and I > know' is also Wrong View. colette:-I-think-I-get-it!-You-are-a-DISCORDIAN,-so-when-are-you- gonna-lay-that-"Heil-Aris"-malarky-on-us? Okay,-fine-,below-you-clearly-make-the-case-to-TEST-YOUR-THEORIES-and- HYPOTHESIS-but-now,-above,-you-are-only-making-the-case-of- construction-of-an-off-ramp-i.e.-you-are-in-a-jungle-and-before-you- start-working-on-what-could-be-a-booby-trap-you-are-simply-gonna- knock-down-a-huge-segment-of-the-forest,-jungle-,so-that-you-can- build-an-OFF-RAMP-or-ESCAPE-ROUTE.-<.....> Fine,-Tep,-you-want-to-have-your-escape-routes-clearly-marked-in-case- the-bombs-start-blowing-up-on-you-in-the-field.-This-is-real-life,- however,-and-therefor-we-do-not-have-that-available-time-so-recall- the-CBees-since-we-aren't-constructing-an-off-ramp-before-we-deal- with-this-IED. ------------------------------------ > > Now, focusing only on KenH, the question is : How do I find out if I > have a wrong vew about him? > colette:-it-can-get-pretty-grizzly-especially-first-thing-in-the- morning-when-the-sun's-still-on-the-horizon-and-there's-that-heavenly- aroma-of-decomposing-flesh-in-the-air-i.e."I-luv-the-smell-of-nepalm- in-the-morning"-nepalm,however,-is-closer-to-the-scent-of-a-gas- station-or-the-flight-deck-of-a-carrier-while-burning-or-decomposing- flesh-is-rather-distinctive. That's-why-"religion-and-politics-don't-mix"-is-such-a-true- statement.-Is-this-situation-about-Life-&-Death-or-is-the-situation- about-fixing-the-game-so-that-one-gang-is-paid-off-while-the-other- gang-suffers?-We-are-speaking-of-dharmas-here,-aren't-we?-Dharmas-do- control-people,-don't-they?<....> Tep,-you-took-your-chances-but-I-can't-allow-you-to-display-that- behavior.-KenH-has-solid-foundational-position-and-solid-arguments- that-you-have-to-address-and-resolve-even-if,-in-my-mind,-the-issues- are-clearly-resolved-in-Ken's-favor.-But-that-would-mean-I'm-putting- the-cart-before-the-horse-and-deciding/resolving-the-issue-before- it's-been-completely-explored/discovered,-etc.-We-can-drop-the-issue- or-we-can-pursue-it-as-if-we-were-gluttons-for-punishment.-It- certainly-is-possible-that-you-can-come-out-of-this-with-your-body-in- tact-but-that-is-strictly-a-resultant-phenomina-of-YOUR-BEHAVIOR. gots-to-be-off. toodles, colette #89136 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:57 pm Subject: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... kenhowardau Hi Howard, We were talking about uninstructed worldlings: -------------- KH: > > He is ignorant of the Dhamma. He does not know, for example, that lobha arises only with either pleasant or equanimous feeling. Howard: > I don't find craving at all pleasant, Ken! I don't find it neutral either. I find it unpleasant - ranging from mildly so to intensely so. ---------------- Yes, but that is exactly my point. Worldlings can give dictionary definitions of craving, but they (we) don't know exactly what it is. In your example it seems to you that craving and domanosa arise at the same time. Most people think "love hurts" but, according to the Buddha, it doesn't! The root condition that arises with unpleasant feeling is dosa, not lobha. The dosa of not getting what one craves may arise soon after the craving, and so the worldling gets confused. ------------------- H: > Of course,*what* I crave is almost always something I find pleasant - even the mere thought of it. But the craving itself is uncomfortable, unpleasant, distressful. -------------------- Craving (or just the concept of craving) can become the object of consciousness, and if that consciousness is with dosa then of course the experience will be an unpleasant one. But that unpleasantness is an attendant of the dosa itself, not of dosa's object. ------------------------- H: > If Abhidhamma teaches otherwise, then, in that respect, I dismiss Abhidhamma. -------------------------- Hmmm, that is a discussion topic on its own. But I will delete my comments (about Buddhists and non-Buddhists) :-) and continue with the present discussion. ----------------------------------------------------- KH: > > The ordinary man does not understand the momentary nature of reality. Howard: > Ken, for the most part we have a set of beliefs, not true understanding. Recently, I've found that I seem to truly see the radical non-remaining of everything. If I'm not mistaken, that is an advance beyond mere believing. But I've got to tell you that I think I am quite the ordinary man-on-the-street, as I believe most if not all of us here are. Those of us who think we are not simply because of what we have read and believe are, IMO, quite deluded. ----------------------------------------------------- Not only meditators but all ordinary people will occasionally have extraordinary experiences. For example, we will all, at some time, experience extreme loss and grief. At those times the world will seem to be an uncaring, empty, place. And so those experiences enable us to give dictionary definitions of 'disillusionment' 'dispassion' 'renunciation' and other functions of panna. But they are not the same thing. ---------- KH: > > Therefore, he believes there is some*one* in the present moment that will continue on to experience other moments <. . > Howard: > A belief to the contrary is preferable, to be sure, but still it is only a belief. Until it becomes much more than belief, the belief can be supplanted. Beliefs are a dime a dozen (to use a Yankee-ism) ----------- Yes, but this is the belief we ought to be exploring. If there are only dhammas (no people, no places, no things to do) then the world is very different from the way we have been led to believe. DSG gives us an opportunity to explore this new world together. Why should we pass it up and talk instead about conventional things that we could talk about anywhere? ------------------------------ <. . .> KH: > > Action (in the conventional sense that you are using it) is something that some*one* does in order to experience future results. Howard: > Depends on what you mean by some "one". Has someone written the post to which I'm replying? If properly understood, of course someone has. ----------------------------- Maybe so; but as Mike would remind us, internet posts and the ways in which they get posted are not potential objects for satipatthana. ----------------- HK: > > Why would a Buddha, the teacher of anatta (no *one*), teach actions? The very idea is absurd! It is out of the question! It would never happen! Howard: > You need to read more suttas, Ken. (Geez, who was the Buddha talking to when he said "Come!" when inviting a layperson to go forth?) It is the absence of a soul, self, core, and identity in everything that is the teaching of anatta, not the absence of groups of interrelated phenomena acting in concert. ----------------- :-) Geez, when are you going to give up on this interrelated phenomena malarkey? It is not in the Dhamma! It is not an object of satipatthana! ------------------------ KH: > > But the ordinary man in the street does not know that. He thinks the Buddha *must* have taught conventional actions. Howard: > The Buddha, for the most part, taught worldlings, "men-in- the-street," and he sure did teach them to act in specific ways. Do this, don't do that ... all the time! ------------------------ I can only repeat that we should be discussing how this can be the case *if the world is just momentary phenomena.* We already know how it seems to be the case in the illusory, conventionally known, world. Ken H "When he is walking, a monk knows walking as it truly is." (Satipatthana-sutta) #89137 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:51 pm Subject: Re: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/17/2008 9:57:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, We were talking about uninstructed worldlings: -------------- KH: > > He is ignorant of the Dhamma. He does not know, for example, that lobha arises only with either pleasant or equanimous feeling. Howard: > I don't find craving at all pleasant, Ken! I don't find it neutral either. I find it unpleasant - ranging from mildly so to intensely so. ---------------- Yes, but that is exactly my point. Worldlings can give dictionary definitions of craving, but they (we) don't know exactly what it is. In your example it seems to you that craving and domanosa arise at the same time. Most people think "love hurts" but, according to the Buddha, it doesn't! The root condition that arises with unpleasant feeling is dosa, not lobha. The dosa of not getting what one craves may arise soon after the craving, and so the worldling gets confused. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Craving itself is painful. ------------------------------------------------- ------------------- H: > Of course,*what* I crave is almost always something I find pleasant - even the mere thought of it. But the craving itself is uncomfortable, unpleasant, distressful. -------------------- Craving (or just the concept of craving) can become the object of consciousness, and if that consciousness is with dosa then of course the experience will be an unpleasant one. But that unpleasantness is an attendant of the dosa itself, not of dosa's object. ------------------------- H: > If Abhidhamma teaches otherwise, then, in that respect, I dismiss Abhidhamma. -------------------------- Hmmm, that is a discussion topic on its own. But I will delete my comments (about Buddhists and non-Buddhists) :-) --------------------------------------------- Howard: No, go right ahead, Ken. ------------------------------------------ and continue with the present discussion. ----------------------------------------------------- KH: > > The ordinary man does not understand the momentary nature of reality. Howard: > Ken, for the most part we have a set of beliefs, not true understanding. Recently, I've found that I seem to truly see the radical non-remaining of everything. If I'm not mistaken, that is an advance beyond mere believing. But I've got to tell you that I think I am quite the ordinary man-on-the-street, as I believe most if not all of us here are. Those of us who think we are not simply because of what we have read and believe are, IMO, quite deluded. ----------------------------------------------------- Not only meditators but all ordinary people will occasionally have extraordinary experiences. For example, we will all, at some time, experience extreme loss and grief. At those times the world will seem to be an uncaring, empty, place. And so those experiences enable us to give dictionary definitions of 'disillusionment' 'dispassion' 'renunciation' and other functions of panna. But they are not the same thing. ---------- KH: > > Therefore, he believes there is some*one* in the present moment that will continue on to experience other moments <. . > Howard: > A belief to the contrary is preferable, to be sure, but still it is only a belief. Until it becomes much more than belief, the belief can be supplanted. Beliefs are a dime a dozen (to use a Yankee-ism) ----------- Yes, but this is the belief we ought to be exploring. If there are only dhammas (no people, no places, no things to do) then the world is very different from the way we have been led to believe. DSG gives us an opportunity to explore this new world together. Why should we pass it up and talk instead about conventional things that we could talk about anywhere? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Talk is occasionally useful. More often not. ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ <. . .> KH: > > Action (in the conventional sense that you are using it) is something that some*one* does in order to experience future results. Howard: > Depends on what you mean by some "one". Has someone written the post to which I'm replying? If properly understood, of course someone has. ----------------------------- Maybe so; but as Mike would remind us, internet posts and the ways in which they get posted are not potential objects for satipatthana. ----------------- HK: > > Why would a Buddha, the teacher of anatta (no *one*), teach actions? The very idea is absurd! It is out of the question! It would never happen! Howard: > You need to read more suttas, Ken. (Geez, who was the Buddha talking to when he said "Come!" when inviting a layperson to go forth?) It is the absence of a soul, self, core, and identity in everything that is the teaching of anatta, not the absence of groups of interrelated phenomena acting in concert. ----------------- :-) Geez, when are you going to give up on this interrelated phenomena malarkey? It is not in the Dhamma! It is not an object of satipatthana! ------------------------ KH: > > But the ordinary man in the street does not know that. He thinks the Buddha *must* have taught conventional actions. Howard: > The Buddha, for the most part, taught worldlings, "men-in- the-street," and he sure did teach them to act in specific ways. Do this, don't do that ... all the time! ------------------------ I can only repeat that we should be discussing how this can be the case *if the world is just momentary phenomena.* ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Say what you will, Ken, but it remains the fact that the Buddha instructed his followers in actions to take. BTW, you never seem to reply to the business of listening to, reading, discussing and considering teachings being conventional activities. They ARE, you know! ------------------------------------------------- We already know how it seems to be the case in the illusory, conventionally known, world. Ken H "When he is walking, a monk knows walking as it truly is." ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) Addendum: However much things change, they stay the same!! #89138 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:02 pm Subject: Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream sukinderpal Dear Tep (and Herman), ========= > T: I wish that they drop the view 'Only this is right'. > > Your question is closely related to another question : why is Tep > still hanging around for so long? > > It is a challenge. I cannot leave until I find the way to overcome it > peacefully. > > To overcome it peacefully is, strangely enough, the consequence of > letting go of self. Sukin: This is not the first time that this has happened. And as you note, the reason for the frustration is `self', and this is something we all face in our day to day relationships. The good thing about internet discussions is that here, more time is given for any irritation to die down as it invariably does for everyone regardless we have heard the teachings on impermanence and non-self or not. But for those of us who have been fortunate to hear and appreciate the Dhamma, there is chance also to develop more kusala by way of sila, seeing the value of metta and karuna etc. and more importantly to develop right understanding of whatever appears. This I believe can happen at any time depending on conditions that have nothing to do with any `conventional practice'. I say this because, this is one of the `constant positions' expressed here and is likely one of the things you wished to see a change. I say this also because I wish to point out the fact of the Buddha's teaching on the Noble Eightfold Path being the "One and only Way" to enlightenment and I think that you agree with this. That being the case, I think that you will agree also, that the view about practice each one of us holds is either right or it is wrong, and therefore if we perceive ours to be right, there is no reason to think "maybe". In other words if we think along the lines that our position is right and that others whose view are quite different, in fact even opposed, that they too could be right, then we can be sure that our own *must* be wrong!! There is no place in the Dhamma for "doubt" and there is no virtue in being so called "open minded" about the Dhamma itself when it comes to interpretation. And if indeed the view expressed by some of us is "wrong", the only way that this will be dropped is by way of an education in "Right View" isn't it? So instead of just waiting to see members of DSG drop the view 'Only this is right', why don't you continue to put forward your own understanding of the Dhamma? I hope that you will agree to this. Metta, Sukin #89139 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream egberdina Hi colette, 2008/8/17 colette : > HELLO-HERMAN, > > Pardon-the-hyphens-but-I-have-spacebar. > > A-Jew,-glad-to-have-you-aboard! > You are quite right that I was referring to the Jewish tradition. Personally, I am from a Calvinist sect that considered themselves sort of honorary Jews. Very Old Testament and whatever goes along with that. Cheers Herman #89140 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:33 pm Subject: What is the Cause of Contentment? bhikkhu0 Friends: What is the Cause of Contentment (Santutthi)??? The blessed Buddha once said: Contentment is the Highest Treasure! Why so? Please imagine a state, where one always is Content… !!! :-) What is the cause of contentment? Mutual joy with others success is the proximate cause of contentment... Lack of Mutual joy is therefore the cause of discontentment… When did you last rejoice happily in someone else’s success? When did you last the calm peace of satisfied contentment? Mutual joy can be trained! Result = Calm Content! How? Please see here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Mutual_Joy.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Contentment.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Calm_and_Content.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Rejoicing_Bliss_is_Mudita.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Infinitely_Joyous_Consciousness.htm Enjoy Elevated Rejoice! It cures! When providing the cause, one gains the effect… Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #89141 From: "colette" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:42 pm Subject: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... ksheri3 Hi-KenH, Only-a-few-seconds-to-respond-to-a-single-sentence-of-yours-that-is- such-an-enormous-monstrosity-of-a-cognition: > > Yes, but that is exactly my point. Worldlings can give dictionary > definitions of craving, but they (we) don't know exactly what it is. colette:sure-I-could-go-on-and-take-the-entire-reply-to-respond-to- but-that-single-sentence:a)-you-cognize-an-existance-of-an-emotional- characteristic;-label-it-craving;-decide-you-don't-like-it;-then-open- the-flood-gates-by-cognizing-that-it's-manifestations-are-so-huge- that-you-or-I-or-anybody,-lacks-the-ability-to-properly-label-it! -------------------------------- EVEN-QUICKER-than-the-last-paragraph: The root condition that arises with unpleasant > feeling is dosa, not lobha. colette:-how?-How-can-you-be-so-sure-that-this-negative-fruit-only- has-a-single-root?-I-can-look-at-nature-and-find-all-root-bound- vegetation-to-have-more-than-a-single-root. gotta-go.Thanx-for-the-pleasant-view-of-a-"foundation"-in-a-shambles- and-in-need-of-a-contractor-to-do-repair-works. toodles, colette #89142 From: "colette" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:55 pm Subject: Re: Sudden Insight In My Dream ksheri3 Hi-Connie, Yea,-dream-time-in-the-Aborigines-sense-of-the-word-is-good-as-well- as-Lucid-DReaming-in-Clear-Light-practices-Osel-and-on-and-on.-I-was- led-here-by-some-of-the-most-recent-replies-such-as-from-Scott-and- KenH,-et-al.-I-look-forward-to-checking-out-those-two-posts-you-refer- to-since-I've-only-just-begun-accessing-the-abilities-that-forums- like-this-offer-me-in-the-form-of-past-discussions/conclusions/etc- i.e.-in-a-Kagyu-forum-I-checked-out-the-catch-words:-Candrakiirti-and- Madhyamika-to-find-a-garden-of-early-delights-or-is-that-"D-Lights".- I've-already-tasted-the-fruit-from-the-Madhyamika-discussion-and-they- look-to-be-quite-fattening-but-oh-soooooooooooooo-tastey. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear dreamers, > > this thread reminds me of Sarah's side-note on the Sisters translations in #73715: "#73085, Bodhi has Vijayaa 'sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding', while Mrs RD has her 'sat down.....for siesta'!!" > #89143 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:06 pm Subject: Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream indriyabala Dear Sukin (and Herman), - You are very good at giving a preliminary. >Suk: >The good thing about internet discussions is that here, more time is given for any irritation to die down ... ... there is chance also to develop more kusala and more importantly to develop right understanding of whatever appears. >This I believe can happen at any time depending on conditions that have nothing to do with any `conventional practice'. I say this because, this is one of the `constant positions' expressed here and is likely one of the things you wished to see a change. > I say this also because I wish to point out the fact of the Buddha's teaching on the Noble Eightfold Path being the "One and only Way" to enlightenment and I think that you agree with this. T: It is important to know that kusala can be developed only when there are no akusala vitakkas at that moment ["Any renunciation- perception, non-ill will-perception or harmlessness-perception: That is the cause of skillful resolves". See MN 78: Samana-Mundika Sutta]. Right understanding (samma~nana) is supported by right concentration of the path. And that is an important fact about the Noble Eightfold Path. Yes, I agree with you that N8FP is 'the only way' leading to the cessation of suffering. But I am not convinced that 'right understanding' may arise during an Internet discussion. .............................. > Suk: ..if we think along the lines that our position is right and that others whose view are quite different, in fact even opposed, that they too could be right, then we can be sure that our own *must* be wrong!! >And if indeed the view expressed by some of us is "wrong", the only way that this will be dropped is by way of an education in "Right View" isn't it? So instead of just waiting to see members of DSG drop the view 'Only this is right', why don't you continue to put forward your own understanding of the Dhamma? >I hope that you will agree to this. T: Not exactly in agreement. Firstly, given that we do have a right view (as explained in MN 9), it is not possible that any opposing view, a miccha-ditthi, "could be right". Studying MN 9 is the best way to understand samma-ditthi, Sukin. You don't need anyone to educate you about right view, if you study MN 9. Secondly, as to putting forward my understanding of the Dhamma, I have already been doing exactly that. Tep === #89144 From: "connie" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:49 pm Subject: Re: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... nichiconn Dear Ken, Howard, H: > If Abhidhamma teaches otherwise, then, in that respect, I dismiss Abhidhamma. -------------------------- K: Hmmm, that is a discussion topic on its own. But I will delete my comments (about Buddhists and non-Buddhists) :-) and continue with the present discussion. ----------------------------------------------------- c: ditto mine on it being a matter of tradition that only those familiar with Abhidhamma might be true teachers. etc. ====== H: Beliefs are a dime a dozen (to use a Yankee-ism) c: and at a penny or two in passing on the streets anyway, who gives a farthing? and i'm not trying to << engage in disputatious talk, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and Discipline. I understand this Dhamma and Discipline. What, you understand this Dhamma and Discipline! You're practising wrongly, I'm practising rightly. (cut) >>, but there is no question - the suttas say "Train Thus" occasionally. For one: << " 'Using blocks of wood as cushions, we will dwell diligent and ardent in striving.' Thus should you train yourselves. " >> (cdb p710) And this next example might seem debatable because of the brackets, but it's the next sentence I like: << There are, bhikkhus, forms cognizable by the eye that are agreeable and those that are disagreeable. [One should train so that] these do not persist obsessing one's mind even when they are repeatedly experienced. When the mind is not obsessed, tireless energy is aroused, unmuddled mindfulness is set up, the body becomes tranquil and untroubled, the mind becomes concentrated and one-pointed. Seeing this fruit of diligence, bhikkhus, I say that those bhikkhus still have work to do with diligence in regard to the six bases for contact. >> (cdb p1207) peace, connie #89145 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:53 pm Subject: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta kenhowardau Hi Tep, ---------------- T: > Your reply to Howard below is so extraordinarily contradicting to the "conventional" Buddhist belief that it motivates me to write this email to inform. <. . .> Let me give you a quick brush of the conventional Buddhist belief on "action". An action is a kamma. There are bodily action, verbal action, and mental action. ----------------- Tep, this post of yours is unerringly similar to the way Ven Thanissaro teaches. Firstly, he uses the word 'action,' as you have done, in the ordinary manner of speaking. That is, he refers to action (or kamma) as if it was something that was performed by an actor (or a performer of the action). ------------------------- T: > The anatta principle does not deny kamma; ------------------------- Secondly, Ven T tells us the anatta principle does not deny kamma. :-) Remembering Ven T's definition of kamma we can see what he means. He means the anatta principle does not deny there is an atta (a performer of the action). ----------------------------------- T: > it is about the mental attitude that lets go of attachment to the body and mind or the khandhas namely, 'this is not mine', 'this is not me', 'this is not my self'. --------------------------------- Thirdly, Ven T tells us what anatta really is. According to him, it is not (as Buddhists have always believed) the absence of self. So Ven T teaches that anatta is not the characteristic "absence of self" that applies to absolutely every existent thing, past present or future. He says it a simply a strategy (or "mental attitude" as you have called it) that can be adopted by meditators in order to calm their minds (to "free their minds from stressful thoughts"). I notice you have deviated from the usual terminology by using the words 'letting go of attachment.' I assume that means "freeing the mind from stressful thoughts." (Corrections welcome.) --------------------------------------------- T: > Any self view is mental formations, one of the five khandhas that are anicca, dukkha, and anatta. --------------------------------------------- Yes, that is right, a view of self is ditthi. But what about the actual self? What is that? As I understand Ven T the self is consciousness. He says that our consciousness is "bound." I assume that means "concealed by stressful thoughts." And he says our "bound consciousness" becomes "unbound" when, upon enlightenment, its true nature is finally revealed. --------------------------------------------- T: > The Buddha did not teach "no one, no action" like you have consistently (and boringly) claimed for a long, long time. ---------------------------------------------- I am sorry to have frustrated for you all these years, Tep. I had the same effect on another Thanissaro-following DSG member before you. Let me assure there is nothing personal - no animosity on my part. As for your opening remark "this is the "conventional" Buddhist belief," I don't know if you are right or wrong about that. It certainly wasn't the conventional Buddhist belief prior to the advent of Access To Insight and the teachings of Ven Thanissaro, but it might be now. All I know for sure is it is not the teaching that is found in the Pali Canon (or in any of the other ancient Buddhist texts). Ken H #89146 From: "rinzeee" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:13 pm Subject: Re: An Observation of This Panel rinzeee Dear Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Rinzeee, > > > R: Not necessarily. The 8-fold path begins with Right View or Right > > Understanding (which ever term you are familiar with). This right > > view would counteract wrong views right now. But the uprooting of > > wrong view or some part thereof, is through cessation of perception > > and feeling in 4 stages. > > What do you mean by "uprooting of wrong view is through cessation of > perception & feeling in 4 stages"? > > Do you mean to become a sotapanna, one has to attain the cessation of > perception & feeling? > > Swee Boon `Cessation of Perception and Feeling Proper', can only be attained by an Anagami or Arahant. But a Sotapanna or Sakadagami is said gets a fleeting glimpse of this state when they attain Nibbana. Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami and Arahant are 4 levels of attainment by the mind, when consciousness alights on Nibbana as the object. At the moment of attainment, it is said, the fetters corresponding to that level, is instantly eradicated in the mind. Namarupa paccaya vinnana – here namarupa is conditioned, dependently arisen. But Nibbana being unconditioned, the consciousness that alights on it cannot latch on, since there is no `construction' of things as `nama'. Nama is the `handle' with which we hold all objects. Proliferation of thoughts, happens here, refer Madhupindika Sutta 18 in MN. Imagine an oversized beach ball. Can you hold it in the palm of one hand with your fingers? But fix a handle, and it can be held easily, even with your little finger! Some people do this to Nibbana! And they imagine all the Buddhas are `up there' somewhere! Lord Buddha cautions us against this, in Mulapariyaya Sutta 01 in MN. Of an untaught ordinary person, Lord Buddha says… "He PERCEIVES Nibbana as Nibbana. Having perceived Nibbana as Nibbana, he conceives Nibbana, he conceives in Nibbana, he conceives from Nibbana, he conceives Nibbana to be mine, he delights in Nibbana. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say." But of a Disciple in Higher Training, Lord Buddha speaks of the above this way… "He DIRECTLY knows Nibbana as Nibbana. Having directly known Nibbana as Nibbana, he SHOULD NOT conceive Nibbana, he etc etc.. Why is that? So that he may fully understand it, I say." So, the root of this `handle' is `perception and feeling', Cittasankara, Cullavedalla Sutta 44 in MN. When there is nothing to say, can we say something? No. Why? Because that part of consciousness, that had something to be said, is non- existent, non-indicative of things to be said. In a sense, Sotapanna's consciousness is `1/4th Arahant'. It is non- indicative of that part, where the fetters would formulate (1) Self Views, (2) Rites and Rituals as regards The Way to end Suffering, (3) Doubts regarding The Way. May all be Happy Rinze #89147 From: "rinzeee" Date: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 3. rinzeee Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: He was the Lord Buddha and was going to be a teacher of devas and > men. > Also a bhikkhu who develops both samatha and vipassana is in a > different situation. > But for us, busy laypeople? We are fortunate that we can listen to > the Dhamma and develop understanding in our daily lives of all namas > and rupas appearing through the six doors, even now while I am > writing to you, or for you, while you are reading. Seeing has to be > known, visible object has to be known, the all has to be known. > Seeing arises now in daily life and in a secluded place, but seeing > is always seeing: it experiences what is visible. That is its > characteristic. It makes no difference where it arises. Lobha is > lobha, it arises in daily life or when sitting under a tree. We have > to know these phenomena as just dhammas that are conditioned. Not self. > And those who develop samatha in a secluded place also have to know > jhanacitta as not self. > Nina. I am relieved! For a moment, I thought that you too, are one of those, who advocate a form of `Inaction' and speak against `Formal Meditation'. So, your contention is that, as layman, we are too busy, to set aside a time and place as such, for meditation. And a Bhikku, who develops both Samatha and Vipassana, is in a different situation, since he is not a layperson. And therefore you think, "we are fortunate that, we can listen to the Dhamma and develop understanding, IN OUR DAILY LIVES, of all namas and rupas appearing through the six doors". You are right in a way! I think, we, here in Sri Lanka, are the most fortunate, to listen to the Dhamma. Since we have two, one hour, radio transmissions daily, in the morning and evening, and in the weekends, even more than that, and a Buddhist TV Channel, all giving out Dhamma sermons! Whatsmore, we even have Buddhist temples, almost every 3 to 4 km distance or so, in populated cities, such as Colombo and the suburbs. Moreover, we have that noble tradition, for the upkeep of all these temples and Bhikkus, where we provide Dana. And once a year, during the `rain retreat' period, incidentally this time, from August to November, each temple committee members, have a program where, the needs of a temple is also looked into, utilities, repairs, medical needs, renovations etc etc. To cap it all, a good percentage of the 75 % Buddhist population in Sri Lanka, observe the Uposatha Poya day Sil program, that falls once a month. It is a holiday in Sri Lanka. We spend the day in the temple, from 6 am to 6 pm, observing the 8 or 10 precepts! Going by these statistics, I think, Sri Lanka should produce more number of `Ariya Puggalas' than in any other country! Alas, it's not that significant! Though there are some good retreats and learned Bhikkus, able to guide us through the Labrynth of the Dhamma. As Lord Buddha predicted, chronicled in the History of Sri Lanka that, Sri Lanka would preserve the Dhamma! The point I'm trying to make, with all these facts is, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to realize the Dhamma, by just going through daily living! Perhaps, there may be just that rare person, who would have attained some status by doing so, due to his / her past Paramis! And this person, would have started this notion that, `one need not set aside a time and place as such for mediation, and that concentrating on a particular object is admission of self or whatever, and so on'. It may be true of that person, but not necessarily of all the rest. The nature of this Mind is such that, through out this long period we fared in Sansara, it knows how to `survive', and has adopted devious methods, to camouflage, the vain efforts we make, to shorten its `lifetime' in sansara! To give an example. Imagine the soldier in a battle field, obeying the commands of those senior to them, knowing very well that they are mere `pawns' in a `game of chess', their lives, expendable! Their minds are specially trained for it, unlike in other Professions, to do or die, in battle. Should the time come, their minds are trained, not to hesitate, and obey their Commanding Officer, to lay down, even their lives. Similarly in the `battlefield' of Dhamma, we are asked not to hold onto anything, least of all, this body, to attain Nibbana, This body and mind has traveled such a long time through Sansara, together, as `companions', and do you imagine that, the mind would let go of this body, without much persuasion? The solder in the battlefield is assured of a gold medal, or a promotion awarded posthumously at least. But this mind, has no such assurance whatsoever! It is with firm determination that, even Lord Buddha sat under the Bodhi tree, to attain Enlightenment. The Buddha. the Silent Buddha and the Arahant, the difference between them, is their range of Wisdom, and hence their Paramis. Nevertheless, the underlying fact is that, towards the culmination of their aspirations, their mind has to undergo rigorous training, for which their Paramis provide the conditioning factor. Lord Buddha expounded The Dhamma in various ways, to a variety of People, who's skill range from the dull to the quick witted. In fact, there is the story, of a Bhikku, who was doing walking meditation, to such an extent, that his foot was bleeding. Lord Buddha saw this, and advised the Bhikku, how he should meditate, with the beautiful analogy, of a stringed musical instrument. He said, the string, of the musical instrument, should neither be too taut, nor too loose, if the note is to be played, correctly. And so, there should be a balance in the Teaching. No one particular `method' is applicable to everybody. What is important, is to understand that, our minds cannot be conditioned on the `go', while many things are happening around us, how ever much we seem to know the Dhamma. If that was so, Professors and Scholars in Dhamma, would have arrived at some stage of Liberation, wouldn't they? And we know this for a fact, in things Mundane, where we send our children for training in various matters, sports, for instance. How much more so, it should be, for Supra-Mundane! May all be Happy Rinze #89148 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Programmed Behavior ? sarahprocter... Dear Tep, --- On Sat, 16/8/08, Tep Sastri wrote: >>S: In fairness, I think I can only respond to points or answer questions raised according to my understanding of the teachings. >T: That is extremely important : whose teachings? If we do not have the same "teachings" in mind, then it is hopeless to have a fruitful discussion with no frustration. ............ ..... S: I'm referring to the Buddha's teachings, the Dhamma-Vinaya, as found in the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries. The reason we have these discussions, which some like yourself find so frustrating, is because we may read the same sutta and yet have a different understanding of what we read. If asked or encouraged to give a comment, I think we just do our best according to that understanding of these teachings to date. Anytime you come across what seems to you to be a 'consistent programmed response' or a 'flip-flop', I'll be very happy to elaborate. I think that what you have seen as 'flip-flops' have been misunderstandings of my meaning. you're welcome to trace back and raise any such comments of mine again anytime. As for 'programmed replies' - again I and others just write as we study and understand the teachings, just as you do. That's all, Tep. Finally, thank you for all your kind personal comments. Different accumulations for 'frustration' or irritation to arise in different circumstances, that's all. I'm much more likely to get frustrated when I can't get the key to work in our room or when there's a problem with the computer, for example -- you know the really big issues in life:-)). Anyway, next time we discuss the teachings, I'll attempt to avoid robotic responses or flip-flops ....but as you know it's all anatta (oops, 'programmed' response:-)). Metta, Sarah ====== #89149 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:16 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 6, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, “What are realities?”, this was a question some people asked. Reality is not a concept, it is not something abstract. Reality is that which can be directly experienced, now. Is there no seeing now? Seeing is a reality, it can be directly experienced. When mindfulness arises the characteristic of seeing can be studied in order to know it as it is. Visible object is a reality, it can be experienced when it appears, now. Hearing is a reality, sound is a reality. Hardness, softness, heat and cold are realities; they can be directly experienced through the bodysense when they appear. Is there no impingement on the bodysense now? If there is no forgetfulness, realities can be studied with sati. This is the way to know them as they are: elements which are devoid of self. “Person” is not a reality, it is only a concept or idea we form up in our minds. We cling to people and we take them for permanent and for “self”. We know that we all have to die, but we have not realized impermanence, the arising and falling away of realities. We should remember that what we take for self or person are only nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away all the time. Thus, there is actually birth and death at each moment. What we call “life” is in reality one short moment of cognizing an object. This moment falls away and is succeeded by the next moment. When a citta arises which experiences visible object, our life is seeing. At another moment our life is hearing or thinking. All these moments fall away as soon as they have arisen. Thus we can say that life exists only in one short moment, this very moment. Nåmas and rúpas are realities, they can be experienced. Instead of the word reality we can use the word “dhamma”. Dhamma does not only mean the Buddha’s teaching, it has other meanings as well. Everything which is real is dhamma or “paramattha dhamma”, which is translated as “absolute reality”. Namas and rúpas are paramattha dhammas. There are two kinds of conditioned nåmas: citta, consciousness, and cetasika, mental factor arising with consciousness. Seeing and hearing, for example, are cittas. Attachment and mindfulness are cetasikas which can accompany citta. Citta is always accompanied by several cetasikas, at least seven. Nibbåna is the one unconditioned nåma. It does not experience an object, but it is the object experienced by lokuttara (supramundane) citta. Summarizing the paramattha dhammas, they are: citta cetasika rúpa nibbåna Absolute realities are different from “conventional truth” which are concepts or ideas. We need to use concepts such as person, brain, society, in our contact with our fellow-men. We work with these concepts and we would find it difficult to do without them. However, we should remember that they are not absolute realities, realities which can be directly experienced when they appear at the present moment, such as seeing, visible object, hearing or sound. Paramattha dhammas can be objects of mindfulness in vipassanå. ******* Nina. #89150 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:51 am Subject: Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream abhidhammika Dear Herman, colette, Scott, Howard, Sukin, Tep, Alex, Phil and all How are you? Herman wrote: "I am content with the fact that at present it is relatively easy to quench cravings as they arise. " It is very nice of you to mention this important training you exercise. When you have spare time, it would be equally nice to know if your training has been already in place before you were exposed to the Buddha's teachings. You also wrote: "For seeing clearly that my life is nothing more than endlessly repeating and meaningless sequences of craving/satisfaction leaves me discontented." So far so good, Herman. But, when you wrote the following: "So I try and avoid seeing that clearly as much as I can. Which means I am intentionally ignorant, and I just keep doing what I'm doing." You sounded like my mum. I remembered in my childhood my mum describing her kamma.t.thaana experience. I overheard her saying that it became so real to her that she would attain awakening if she continued the practice. And, as she wasn't ready for awakening, she stopped the practice. When I speak with my parents on the phone every other week, I discuss dhamma and practice with my father. And, I discuss good food and good movies with my mum. After all, we are a simple atheist family following the Buddha's teachings and enjoying good life. Herman also wrote: "If you looked beyond your narrow area of interest you would find other traditions that understand the point quite well. In the tradition I come from, for example, the name of G-D is not to be represented, for it is well understood that G-D is beyond conceptualisation. To name G-D is the grave error of judgment that seeks to bring G-D down to one's own level of understanding." Now, you also sounded like a Muslim. :-) Buddhist atheists do not have those types of superstition regarding names. When I described sudden insight as something that is beyond verbalization, it is because sudden insight is something for each of us to realize on our own, and, moreover, it is within our reach. Sudden insight is something achievable by human means and capabilities. It is what the Buddha called a sacchikaatabba dhamma (something to realize). It should not be compared to a theist fuzzy concept such as the name of God. Herman also wrote: "What is relevant here is the 10 stage DO, where it all begins with name and form mutually conditioning each other. Have you had an experience that was before name and form? From the rest of your advice, you seem to be saying that all others should be like you in having this nameless/formless sudden insight." Now, you also sounded like a sleep-walker with the above statement. :-) My advice in my original message was merely the following: "As the sudden insight is the preserve of advanced practitioners of samatha and vipassanaa, you are also strongly urged to undertake the formal practice of the Right Recollection (sammaasati) and the Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi)." I wasn't implying at all that all others should be like me in having this nameless/formless sudden insight. Herman also asked: "Allow me to ask you again: What is the value to you of this sudden insight?" I have answered your question properly as follows: "Unless you can think like a Buddhist and do like a Buddhist practitioner, you won't be able to fathom the concept of sudden insight, let alone its value." That answer will be valid until you can realize it on your own. As a courtesy, I also provided you with a way leading to sudden insight. That is the practice of samatha and vipassanaa. You also asked: "Has it cut off craving at the roots? My answer is: "YOU MUST WORK OUT YOURSELF. YOU MUST FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF." Herman also wrote: "If it has, then I am very happy for you, and I would certainly want to emulate that achievement." Thank you, Herman. The good news is that you can be happy to your heart's content. To emulate that achievement, all you need to do is start undertaking the formal practice of samatha and vipassanaa. You also wrote: "If it hasn't, (and I cannot see that it has), then perhaps a 12 stage DO applies to you as well, intentionally or otherwise, …" Herman, you now sounded like a blind man. :-) If you cannot see that it has, you are a blind man. That is your confession! Not my accusation. :-) Herman also quoted the following: "and we are still just: ....... lost souls Swimming in a fish bowl, Year after year, Running over the same old ground.What have we found? The same old fears." My reply to Herman and Scott is: If the cap fits it, wear it. For me though, as I have no soul (nijjiiva) in the first place, I can never be a lost soul. That is the advantage of being a Buddhist atheist. :-) You poor theists, happy swimming in a fish bowl! Cheers! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #89151 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream egberdina Hi Tep, 2008/8/17 Tep Sastri : > > Hi Herman, - > > Good for you to ask. > >> Not that it will happen, but what is your wish for dsg? >> > > T: I wish that they drop the view 'Only this is right'. > > Your question is closely related to another question : why is Tep > still hanging around for so long? > > It is a challenge. I cannot leave until I find the way to overcome it > peacefully. > > To overcome it peacefully is, strangely enough, the consequence of > letting go of self. > I understand what you are saying. There is recognisable and identifiable fruit of the contemplative life, and it is well-described in DN02. There is recognisable and identifiable fruit of intellectual understandings of all sorts, and it's characteristic is endless proliferation. I think your quest of overcoming peacefully is admirable, and worthy of emulation, and you have my full support in that. Cheers Herman #89152 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:14 am Subject: Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream scottduncan2 Dear Suan, I'm okay, thanks. I was wondering whether you might have some comments related to the Sammohavinodanii quote I gave earlier. It was: 2056..."'Overcome by ape's drowsing' means sleeping with monkey sleep (makka.taniddaa); for just as monkey's sleep is easily broken, one who is sleeping with sleep which is easily broken because of being interspersed again and again with profitable, etc. consciousnesses, and in the occurrence of which there is dipping again and again into the life continuum, sees dreams. Hence the dream is either profitable or unprofitable or indeterminate." Scott: I don't wish to enter into the polemical side of this discussion, Suan. Having undergone a lengthy psychoanalytic treatment, and having worked for years from within the psychoanalytic tradition, dreams are not foreign to me. I'm not sure that there is relevance to the content or meaning of a dream vis-a-vis the Dhamma. I think this because the use of dreams from within the psychoanalytic tradition reflects very securely the focus of that tradition: an assumed self and the postulated mental dynamics of such a structure. To be fair, I haven't heard you to describe the use you make of a dream). As the above quote suggests to me, the dream seems to participate in the same elements of consciousness as would any waking mental process. This being the case, it would seem that any of the profitable, unprofitable, and indeterminate elements of consciousness one would encounter during the day are capable of arising during the dream. This would not rule out, as it seems, the possibility of the arising of kusala dhammas during any process of dreaming. I don't know anything about this aspect of the Dhamma, but would appreciate hearing your comments, especially insofar as I think that the dream considered as a whole - and not as a series of moments of consciousness - can tend to become a conceptual object of what I consider to be unwarranted clinging. (As far as the Pink Floyd quote goes, I just dig the song and offered it for its aesthetic value, not to imply anything caustic thereby - no offense, man.) Sincerely, Scott. #89153 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream upasaka_howard Hi, Suan (and Herman) - In a message dated 8/18/2008 5:51:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Herman also wrote: "If you looked beyond your narrow area of interest you would find other traditions that understand the point quite well. In the tradition I come from, for example, the name of G-D is not to be represented, for it is well understood that G-D is beyond conceptualisation. To name G-D is the grave error of judgment that seeks to bring G-D down to one's own level of understanding." Now, you also sounded like a Muslim. :-) Buddhist atheists do not have those types of superstition regarding names. ============================= Actually, Herman sounds far more like a Jew who views G-D as "the one reality" ("ein od milvado" meaning "There is nothing else") and that, as It is, as opposed to how It manifests/appears due to the filtering by ignorance, is beyond all condition and conceptual description. It is unconditioned and truly real, and yet from the worldly perspective, is "ayin," meaning "nothing" (or, better, "no thing") - not completely unlike the nibbana of the Dhamma. The primary name of this, YHVH in English, is a grammatically impossible amalgam of past, present, and future tenses of the verb "to be" in Hebrew - sort of a "Was - Is - Will Be" that Reform Judaism not badly renders in English as "The Eternal," and, which, in Hebrew is only *pointed* to by the Hebrew word 'Adonai', which means "Our Lord". I know, Suan, this is much more than you and most others here care to have heard! ;-)) With metta, Howard #89154 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:55 am Subject: Action/Doing. truth_aerator Hi Ken & All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Tep, this post of yours is unerringly similar to the way Ven > Thanissaro teaches. Look at MN60 translated by others, ex: Bodhi. There the Buddha has clearly stated that it is WRONG VIEW to say that there is no action. Wrong View MN60; "There is no strength, no effort, no manly power, no manly courage..." --- In Majjhima Nikaya By Bhikkhu Bodhi on page 511 we have this: MN60: Incontrovertible teaching "Since there actually is doing, one who holds the view 'there is no doing' has wrong view. " ===================== Regarding action ================ "Because there actually is action, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next action' is his wrong view. Because there actually is action, when he is resolved that 'There is no action,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is action, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no action,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is action, when he is says that 'There is no action,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who teach action. Because there actually is action, when he persuades another that 'There is no action,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.060.than.html KenH, how clearer do you need it? > Firstly, he uses the word 'action,' as you have > done, in the ordinary manner of speaking. That is, he refers > to action (or kamma) as if it was something that was performed by > an actor (or a performer of the action). Only for those who think that Self exists and try to reinterpret every single in that way. Personally, I am not afraid of getting Self View due to grammatically required words. Best wishes, Alex #89155 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:06 am Subject: Re: An Observation of This Panel nidive Hi Rinzeee, > So, the root of this `handle' is `perception and feeling', > Cittasankara, Cullavedalla Sutta 44 in MN. > > When there is nothing to say, can we say something? No. Why? > Because that part of consciousness, that had something to be said, > is non-existent, non-indicative of things to be said. > > In a sense, Sotapanna's consciousness is `1/4th Arahant'. It is non- > indicative of that part, where the fetters would formulate (1) Self > Views, (2) Rites and Rituals as regards The Way to end Suffering, > (3) Doubts regarding The Way. Thank you very much, Rinzeee, I am very stafisfied with your answer. But I have one more question to clarify. What is the difference between "Cessation of Perception & Feeling Proper" vs "Fruition Consciousness"? Is there consciousness and perception present when one enters "Fruition Consciousness"? Swee Boon #89156 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:18 am Subject: was (some) Avijja & Conceit . Now: Action MN60 truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > ------ > N: He said that all conditioned phenomena are impermanent, that >they fall away immediately. I agree about anicca. I DISAGREE about certain interpretations of ksanikaVADA that you *seem* to say. Anicca doesn't refute a temporary conscious development of right effort, samma-sati, sammasamadhi and such things. Quite the opposite. Because there is anicca, then lack of sati and akusala states CAN (and SHOULD) be changed. the Buddha has stated that: ============================================================ "When they think, `there are results for actions, that becomes right thoughts for them. When they talk that `there are results for actions', that becomes right words for them. The view, there are results for actions, is the same as the view of the noble ones, and the instructions they give is the right Teaching. On account of that they do not praise themselves or disparage others. Thus from the beginning their evil virtues were dispelled, and they accumulate much merit on account of right view, such as right speech, giving instructions in the teaching which is the same that the noble ones say and by that not praising themselves nor disparaging others." http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima2/060-apannaka-e1.html ============================================ Best wishes, Alex #89157 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream abhidhammika Dear Howard, Scott, Herman, Thank you, Howard, for explaining a Judaic concept of God. But, you forgot to mention if a Judaic God is a person or a Self or a Soul or a Spirit or a Creator. How is he/she/it/they different from the type of God understood by Jesus? If you have spare time, I do care to hear. Suan Lu Zaw PS- Scott, I will write something to answer your questions regarding the phenomena of dreams in Abhidhamma. Suan #89158 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream sukinderpal Dear Tep, I wasn’t looking to start a discussion about anything. The main point I wanted to make was that the attitude some of us have with regards to the Dhamma which you happen to perceive as being similar to the position held by those coming from a kind of ‘wrong view’ who then state to the effect “only this is true”, this does not have to be so. That the Buddha’s Path being the “One and Only Way” would also sound somewhat similar, but to “outsiders”, who after all don’t take into account the truth about nama and rupa, conditionality and the Tilakkhana, but instead do so exactly due to sanna, citta and ‘ditthi’ vipallasa. You state in the end of your post: > Secondly, as to putting forward my understanding of the Dhamma, I > have already been doing exactly that. I know that you have been doing this and my other point was that only by way of making a statement of and about the Truth / Dhamma, will it ever be useful to anyone. Certainly just throwing around characterizations especially those which may in fact be mischaracterization, doesn’t help; not that I don’t often do so myself. But if you are really interested in starting a discussion about the development of Right View, something that you commented upon, we can go ahead. Let me know. Metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Sukin (and Herman), - > > You are very good at giving a preliminary. #89159 From: "rinzeee" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:07 am Subject: Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream rinzeee Dear Sukin and the rest, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Sukin: This is not the first time that this has happened. And as you > note, the reason for the frustration is `self', and this is something > we all face in our day to day relationships. I think the superficial reason for this frustration is Boredom, Sukin, since we are faced with the same situation, day-in and day- out, the same old members discussing the same old topics and so on and so forth. In fact, why does Nina or Larry or others change the topic of discussion from time to time? Apart from the fact that we develop our knowledge of the Dhamma, there comes a time when, frustrations of this sort would creep in on us, when we confine ourselves only to discussions. Sotanamaya panna, chintanamaya panna, bhavanamaya panna. What we read, listen, we should think, reflect. And then we should practice. Only then will behavioral changers take effect in the mind. Otherwise frustration leads to more frustration. This is Dhukka. It must be seen in our every activity. If not the cause of Dhukka will not be comprehended. Take the leaking tap in your home. Do you see it as a problem? Yes. `That is the 1st truth. Then you investigate, and find the cause, to be a wasted washer. That is the 2nd truth. Is there a need, to solve the problem? Yes, that is why it is a problem. That is the 3rd truth. So we go to the hardware store, buy a rubber washer, and fix the problem, the 4th truth. The 4 Noble Truths is also causally linked in this way. But, unless we see Dukkha in our activities, we will not be motivated to find its cause. Without knowing the cause, we would not find the way. In the 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, Lord Buddha speaks of Kaya Anupassana first. Why? Because it is the most gross factor, readily seen by the wise. Only thereafter, does He expose the subtle nature of the Dhamma, such as Impermanence, Suffering and Not self. It's not everybody, who would understand to the point of being motivated, to investigate such subtle nature of the Dhamma, at the outset. Dukkha-dukkha, manasika dukkha, cetasika dukkha, viparinama dukkha, sankara dukkha, these are like the progressively inner layers of an onion, which must be `peeled' off first, to realize the core Teachings of the Dhamma, such as Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta, the signs of meditation. >The good thing about > internet discussions is that here, more time is given for any > irritation to die down as it invariably does for everyone regardless > we have heard the teachings on impermanence and non-self or not. But in this case it didn't die down as stated here. There were unpleasant exchanges posted. Which proves how much more difficult it would be in our daily activities, where our responses are spontaneous! >But > for those of us who have been fortunate to hear and appreciate the > Dhamma, there is chance also to develop more kusala by way of sila, > seeing the value of metta and karuna etc. and more importantly to > develop right understanding of whatever appears. > > This I believe can happen at any time depending on conditions that > have nothing to do with any `conventional practice'. I say this > because, this is one of the `constant positions' expressed here and > is likely one of the things you wished to see a change. I say this > also because I wish to point out the fact of the Buddha's teaching on > the Noble Eightfold Path being the "One and only Way" to > enlightenment and I think that you agree with this. There is no doubt about the 8 fold path being the only way, but consensus on `constant positions' expressed in this panel shouldn't be the deciding factor of what is `Right View', don't you think? > That being the case, I think that you will agree also, that the view > about practice each one of us holds is either right or it is wrong, > and therefore if we perceive ours to be right, there is no reason to > think "maybe". In other words if we think along the lines that our > position is right and that others whose view are quite different, in > fact even opposed, that they too could be right, then we can be sure > that our own *must* be wrong!! There is no place in the Dhamma for > "doubt" and there is no virtue in being so called "open minded" about > the Dhamma itself when it comes to interpretation. I don't quite follow you here Sukin. > And if indeed the view expressed by some of us is "wrong", the only > way that this will be dropped is by way of an education in "Right > View" isn't it? So instead of just waiting to see members of DSG > drop the view 'Only this is right', why don't you continue to put > forward your own understanding of the Dhamma? I think each of us must know it from within, of what is right or wrong practice. This is what is meant by `Paccattam veditabbo vinnuhi." Education will serve as for as thought goes. The subtle nature of the Dhamma is even beyond thinking and reasoning. > I hope that you will agree to this. > > > Metta, > > Sukin > May all beings be Happy Rinze #89160 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:24 am Subject: was: Sudden Insight In My Dream; now N8P truth_aerator Dear Sukinder, Tep and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Tep (and Herman), > > Sukin: > the Noble Eightfold Path being the "One and only Way" to > enlightenment and I think that you agree with this. Noble 8Fold path also includes Samma-Viriya & Samma-Samadhi In Right Effort you train to let go off akusala and develop kusala. "And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html In Right Samadhi you train to develop Jhanas. "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html > There is no place in the Dhamma for > "doubt" and there is no virtue in being so called "open minded" >about the Dhamma itself when it comes to interpretation. =================================================================== ""And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore... Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There's nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. [alex: goes to 4th Jhana] [Alex: 1st Knowledge] With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives... [Alex: 2nd Knowledge] With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. [Alex: 3rd Knowledge] With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There's nothing further for this world.' "This, monks, is called a monk who is a contemplative, a brahman, washed, a master, learned, noble, an arahant. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html ============================================= Best wishes, Alex #89161 From: "connie" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:55 am Subject: Re: Sudden Insight In My Dream nichiconn dear colette, colette: Yea,-dream-time-in-the-Aborigines-sense-of-the-word-is-good-as-well-as-Lucid-DRe\ aming-in-Clear-Light-practices-Osel-and-on-and-on. connie: Not necessarily good, but like Scott's Sammohavinodanii 2056 quote says: "the dream is either profitable or unprofitable or indeterminate." But I think you mean not so much any given dream itself but more of a kind of practise around dreaming that you see as somehow beneficial: leading to revulsion, dispassion, cessation, peace, direct knowledge, enlightenment, Nibbaana. If you've come across any Theravada texts on this matter I'd be interested in seeing them, whichever way they might lean as far as advocating/renouncing or even acknowledging any such practises... that might help explain Mrs RD's "siesta" as something other than an oddity. peace, connie > "#73085, Bodhi has Vijayaa 'sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding', while Mrs RD has her 'sat down.....for siesta'!!" > #89162 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream upasaka_howard Hi, Suan - In a message dated 8/18/2008 10:38:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, suanluzaw@... writes: Dear Howard, Scott, Herman, Thank you, Howard, for explaining a Judaic concept of God. But, you forgot to mention if a Judaic God is a person or a Self or a Soul or a Spirit or a Creator. How is he/she/it/they different from the type of God understood by Jesus? If you have spare time, I do care to hear. Suan Lu Zaw PS- Scott, I will write something to answer your questions regarding the phenomena of dreams in Abhidhamma. Suan ============================== I'm not knowledgeable about Christianity. As far as I know, except for the understanding of the status of Jesus as "God incarnate", the take on "God" is much the same, and it ranges from something to be worshipped to ultimate reality. As far as I know, the "mystical" traditions within each of these religions consider that "God in the highest" is an "it" rather than a "he" and is quite simliar to what is called "the uncondtioned" in Buddhism. As specifically regards Judaism, there are streams within it that consider "God as person" to be simply a limited (but functionally useful) perspective on a conceptually unknowable, unconditioned reality. The German Catholic theologian, Meister Eckhart, had a similar view, I believe. With metta, Howard #89163 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear Rinze, Op 18-aug-2008, om 8:27 heeft rinzeee het volgende geschreven: > To cap it all, a good percentage of the 75 % Buddhist population in > Sri Lanka, observe the Uposatha Poya day Sil program, that falls > once a month. It is a holiday in Sri Lanka. We spend the day in the > temple, from 6 am to 6 pm, observing the 8 or 10 precepts! ------- N: Wonderful. A lovely description of life in Sri Lanka and this was also my experience when visiting Sri Lanka twice. When I lived in Thailand about forty years ago, I also listened to the many radio programs that are sent out. During breakfast I heard over and over again of all the different cittas arising in processes, and now I will not forget! You speak about training being necessary. When I hear the word training, sikkhaa, I think of the citta that trains. Siila sikkhaa, samaadhi sikkhaa and pa~n~naa sikkhaa, and these go together, I think. You speak of the paramis. All good deeds, whatever we can possibly perform, these are siila, and they can be done with understanding of realities so that they are not taken for mine or self. At the same time there is also calm, and it develops as pa~n~naa develops. Nina. #89164 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samvega, Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit nilovg Hi Howard, Op 17-aug-2008, om 21:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > For sure the Buddha taught that all conditioned phenomena are > impermanent. I also do believe that nothing remains (as is, and in > the same relation to > other phenomena) for any time at all - that is, change is > instantaneous and > constant. However, where did the Buddha teach that instantaneous > falling away > that I believe in? In any suttas? > ------------------------------------------------- > N: I remember a text where the Buddha stated that there is nothing > as quick to change as citta. And as you know rupa falls away very > rapidly, but not as fast as citta. I think it is important to understand momentary impermanence, this helps us to understand anatta more. That is why the Buddha said that what is impermanernt is not self, in Kindred Sayings IV. Whta has fallen away is no more, we cannot say of it that it is. We read in the Kindred Sayings III, Khandhavagga, (XXII, §62): And the same for the other khandhas. It would be strange if something is impermanent and still lasts a while longer. It seems a contradiction. The citta that sees must have fallen away when a following citta arises. Each citta can experience only one object. When we really grasp impermanence of this moment now, it becomes clearer that there is no time to do something with regard to the dhamma that has already arisen and fallen away. -------- > Conditions can be > developed, namely, by listening, considering, understanding more what > sati exactly is. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Why only that way? That is not something that the Buddha repeatedly > instructed. For sure he said the Dhamma is to be listened to and > contemplated, > but he emphasized many other things as well - even more so, in > fact. Most > especially, intentionally attending to what arises in the moment, > guarding the > senses, and meditating were repeatedly urged. (And these activities > are no more > "conventional" than reading, listening, discussing, and thinking > over.) > ------------------------------------------- > > It is understanding that matters above all. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > And how is understanding cultivated? Just by reading, listening, > discussing, and thinking over? I truly think that is the baby level > of cultivation > of understanding. It is the way of the academic Buddhist. (But > there aren't > many ariyans to be found in Religious Studies departments, I fear. > --------------------------------------------- > N: The baby level, this was mentioned long ago. I like this, I am > still a baby. Need spoon feeding. Think of the aeons of ignorance > and wrong view that were accumulated form life to life. Certainly > not academic, this sounds like theoretical. ------- > N: More > understanding of realities. If there are not many moments of sati > yet, it should not worry us. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Hmm, what about samvega, Nina? > ------------------------------------------- > > N:If we worry about it, it shows that the > idea of self is at work. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Or it shows that we are motivated by the urgency of putting an end to > dukkha. > --------------------------------------------- N: It depends on the citta at a particular moment. It does not help to think: now I need samvega and take it for mine. You speak, rightly so, about the guarding of the sense doors. Then there is samvega. Here are some texts: sangiitisutta: not guarding the sensedoors: indriyesuagutta-dvaarataa The Co refers to the dha.sa. 1347. We read ((transl U Kyaw Khine, 1352): The same is said with regard to the other doorways. ---------- N: Seeing sees only visible object, but when sati does not arise we confuse seeing and thinking and we believe that we see a person or thing. We are taken in by the image of a person and by the details. ------- The Atthasaalinii explains (II, Suttanta Couplets, 400): < ‘Grasps the general appearance’ [nimitta], i.e. , grasps by way of lusting desire a sign such a is of the male, or female, pleasant, etc., and which is the basis of corruption.. ‘Grasps the details’, i.e., takes the various modes of hands and feet, of smiling, laughing, speaking, looking straight ahaed, looking askance, which have earned the name of ‘details’ from the manifesting, the revealing of the lower nature...> --------- It is essential to know the difference between the moments of forgetfulness and the moments with sati. When there are conditions for sati it can arise and be aware of just one dhamma at a time. We read in the “Atthasaalinii” (Book I, Part IV, Discourse on the Section of Exposition, 147): < Mindfulness is called ‘bearing in mind’ from its nature of bearing in mind a lesson heard or learnt.; ‘non-superficiality’ (in the sense of diving or entering into the object) is the state of not letting the object float away. N: Many different objects present themselves all day long through the six doors, but usually we let them ‘float away’. at such moments there is no interest to develop understanding. In the development of satipa.t.thaana, sati sampaja~n~na is needed, that is, sati and pa~n~naa. When sati is mindful of a reality pa~n~naa can at that moment understand its characteristic, it can understand it as a naama or a ruupa. When insight has been developed in stages, pa~n~naa can penetrate the general characteristics of realities: impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. The texts mentioned above are not for academical purpose, they are to be considered and studied with mindfulness. They concern situations in daily life now. Perhaps this answers the question you ask me many times: only listening and considering? The texts remind us to face all these objects we meet in daily life with understanding of nama and rupa. Is there not citta now, and does it not experience an object? In what way does it experience? Do we know the different cittas? Should they not be known? Is this not a task to be undertaken? Nina. #89165 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:05 pm Subject: Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit - Now: KsanikaVADA truth_aerator Dear Nina, Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > ------------------------------------------------- >N: I remember a text where the Buddha stated that there is >nothing >as quick to change as citta. And as you know rupa falls away very > > rapidly, but not as fast as citta. > I think it is important to understand momentary impermanence, this > helps us to understand anatta more. That is why the Buddha said >that > what is impermanernt is not self, in Kindred Sayings IV. Whta has > fallen away is no more, we cannot say of it that it is. We read in > the Kindred Sayings III, Khandhavagga, (XXII, §62): matter, brethren, is past, ceased, changed,- that is reckoned, > termed, and named as 'has been'. It is not reckoned as 'is', nor >is > it reckoned as 'will be'.> And the same for the other khandhas. "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of he four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html Note that "Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." refutes the concept of momentariness of the physical body. > It would be strange if something is impermanent and still lasts a > while longer. It seems a contradiction. What the Buddha has said is clear: "Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html Best wishes, Alex #89166 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:34 pm Subject: Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream indriyabala Hello Rinze (Sukin, KenH, Alex, Herman, Sarah and Scott), - I like your reply to Sukin concerning right practice of the Teachings and right view. It refreshed me and relieved me from "accumulated frustrations" (akusala citta) after having heard so often that right understanding of 'anatta' means "no-one practices the Dhamma". >Rinze: What we read, listen, we should think, reflect. And then we should practice. Only then will behavioral changers take effect in the mind. Otherwise frustration leads to more frustration. This is Dhukka. It must be seen in our every activity. If not the cause of Dhukka will not be comprehended. T: I know what you meant by "frustration leads to more frustration". Yes, If dukkha is not seen in the khandhas and ayatanas, then the cause of dukkha will not be comprehended. [Ptsm, I, 568] Knowledge in one who possesses the path is knowledge of suffering and it is knowledge of the origin of suffering and it is knowledge of the cessation of suffering and it is knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of sufferring. Herein, what is knowledge of suffering? Any understanding, act-of-understanding, investigation, reinvestigation, investigation-of-ideas (dhamma-vicara), noting, noticing, taking notice, learning, skill, cleverness, estimation, ratiocination, scrutiny, over-all-ness, good-sense, piloting, insight (vipassanaa), full-awareness, spur, understanding(pa~n~naa), understanding as faculty (pa~n~indriya), etc., non-delusion, investigation of ideas, right view(sammaaditthi), that arises contingent upon suffering: this is called knowledge of suffering (cf. Dhs 16). ...................................... >Rinze: In the 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, Lord Buddha speaks of Kaya Anupassana first. Why? Because it is the most gross factor, readily seen by the wise. Only thereafter, does He expose the subtle nature of the Dhamma, such as Impermanence, Suffering and Not self. It's not everybody, who would understand to the point of being motivated, to investigate such subtle nature of the Dhamma, at the outset. T: What, you said "first" ?! Are you talking about sequential, step- by-step practicing and developing of mindfulness? But I have often been told by the prominent DSG members that such is a WRONG idea. Furthermore, they say that seeing 'not self' is all it takes for right understanding to accumulate; anatta does not come AFTER seeing anicca and dukkha. Tep === #89167 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samvega, Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/18/2008 3:14:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 17-aug-2008, om 21:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > For sure the Buddha taught that all conditioned phenomena are > impermanent. I also do believe that nothing remains (as is, and in > the same relation to > other phenomena) for any time at all - that is, change is > instantaneous and > constant. However, where did the Buddha teach that instantaneous > falling away > that I believe in? In any suttas? > ------------------------------------------------- > N: I remember a text where the Buddha stated that there is nothing > as quick to change as citta. And as you know rupa falls away very > rapidly, but not as fast as citta. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I recall that as well. But "quick" is still slower than instantaneous. (The point there, of course, was to indicate how fast mind changes.) ------------------------------------------------------ I think it is important to understand momentary impermanence, this helps us to understand anatta more. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree completely. (Not just to "understand" it, but to *experience* it. --------------------------------------------------- That is why the Buddha said that what is impermanernt is not self, in Kindred Sayings IV. Whta has fallen away is no more, we cannot say of it that it is. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: The falling away is so radically fast - instantaneous, in fact - as to befuddle the mind! There is an absolute unreality to things, as nothing remains as-is for any time at all! It's a dazzling magic show! ------------------------------------------------------ We read in the Kindred Sayings III, Khandhavagga, (XXII, §62): And the same for the other khandhas. It would be strange if something is impermanent and still lasts a while longer. It seems a contradiction. The citta that sees must have fallen away when a following citta arises. Each citta can experience only one object. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I am beginning (just beginning) to actually "see" that what "was" even an instant ago is gone and fully extinct, that what will be is but imagjned, and, most importantly I think, that what "is" is, if looked for, already "gone"! It's all just sleight of hand: not exactly unreal, but close! ------------------------------------------------------- When we really grasp impermanence of this moment now, it becomes clearer that there is no time to do something with regard to the dhamma that has already arisen and fallen away. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, and yet events occur. A magic show, Nina. It can't be captured, stopped, or held onto, but it can be seen. We do, however, have to look. --------------------------------------------------------- -------- > Conditions can be > developed, namely, by listening, considering, understanding more what > sati exactly is. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Why only that way? That is not something that the Buddha repeatedly > instructed. For sure he said the Dhamma is to be listened to and > contemplated, > but he emphasized many other things as well - even more so, in > fact. Most > especially, intentionally attending to what arises in the moment, > guarding the > senses, and meditating were repeatedly urged. (And these activities > are no more > "conventional" than reading, listening, discussing, and thinking > over.) > ------------------------------------------- > > It is understanding that matters above all. > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > And how is understanding cultivated? Just by reading, listening, > discussing, and thinking over? I truly think that is the baby level > of cultivation > of understanding. It is the way of the academic Buddhist. (But > there aren't > many ariyans to be found in Religious Studies departments, I fear. > --------------------------------------------- > N: The baby level, this was mentioned long ago. I like this, I am > still a baby. Need spoon feeding. Think of the aeons of ignorance > and wrong view that were accumulated form life to life. Certainly > not academic, this sounds like theoretical. ------- > N: More > understanding of realities. If there are not many moments of sati > yet, it should not worry us. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Hmm, what about samvega, Nina? > ------------------------------------------- > > N:If we worry about it, it shows that the > idea of self is at work. > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Or it shows that we are motivated by the urgency of putting an end to > dukkha. > --------------------------------------------- N: It depends on the citta at a particular moment. It does not help to think: now I need samvega and take it for mine. You speak, rightly so, about the guarding of the sense doors. Then there is samvega. Here are some texts: sangiitisutta: not guarding the sensedoors: indriyesuagutta-dvaarataa The Co refers to the dha.sa. 1347. We read ((transl U Kyaw Khine, 1352): The same is said with regard to the other doorways. ---------- N: Seeing sees only visible object, but when sati does not arise we confuse seeing and thinking and we believe that we see a person or thing. We are taken in by the image of a person and by the details. ------- The Atthasaalinii explains (II, Suttanta Couplets, 400): < ‘Grasps the general appearance’ [nimitta], i.e. , grasps by way of lusting desire a sign such a is of the male, or female, pleasant, etc., and which is the basis of corruption.. ‘Grasps the details’, i.e., takes the various modes of hands and feet, of smiling, laughing, speaking, looking straight ahaed, looking askance, which have earned the name of ‘details’ from the manifesting, the revealing of the lower nature...> --------- It is essential to know the difference between the moments of forgetfulness and the moments with sati. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it IS essential. We must be attentive, for if not, then there is no knowing. ----------------------------------------- When there are conditions for sati it can arise and be aware of just one dhamma at a time. We read in the “Atthasaaliniiâ€? (Book I, Part IV, Discourse on the Section of Exposition, 147): < Mindfulness is called ‘bearing in mind’ from its nature of bearing in mind a lesson heard or learnt.; ‘non-superficiality’ (in the sense of diving or entering into the object) is the state of not letting the object float away. N: Many different objects present themselves all day long through the six doors, but usually we let them ‘float away’. at such moments there is no interest to develop understanding. In the development of satipa.t.thaana, sati sampaja~n~na is needed, that is, sati and pa~n~naa. When sati is mindful of a reality pa~n~naa can at that moment understand its characteristic, it can understand it as a naama or a ruupa. When insight has been developed in stages, pa~n~naa can penetrate the general characteristics of realities: impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. The texts mentioned above are not for academical purpose, they are to be considered and studied with mindfulness. They concern situations in daily life now. Perhaps this answers the question you ask me many times: only listening and considering? The texts remind us to face all these objects we meet in daily life with understanding of nama and rupa. Is there not citta now, and does it not experience an object? In what way does it experience? Do we know the different cittas? Should they not be known? Is this not a task to be undertaken? Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard #89168 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit - Now: KsanikaVADA upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Nina) - In a message dated 8/18/2008 5:06:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of he four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html Note that "Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." refutes the concept of momentariness of the physical body. =============================== I disagree, Alex. This body, along with all else, doesn't remain as-is for even an instant. There is no stability at all in this world of conditioned dhammas. It is a constant falling away of shadows. With metta, Howard #89169 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit - Now: KsanikaVADA truth_aerator Dear Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Nina) - > > In a message dated 8/18/2008 5:06:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to > hold to the body composed of he four great elements, rather than >the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of >the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, >three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred >years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' >or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ? >ceases as another. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html > > > Note that "Because this body composed of the four great elements >is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, >twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." refutes the >concept of momentariness of the physical body. > > =============================== >I disagree, Alex. This body, along with all else, doesn't remain as- >is for even an instant. It depends on what exactly do you mean by "body". The physical body doesn't disappear & reappear a totally brand new one every second. It appears that some people like to play on ambiguity of words and unknowingly come to certain conclussion. I can most certainly agree about momentariness of electrons and such, but they are not "the body" - at least not the sort of the gross body itself, the Buddha was talking about. In one of the earliest & first suttas the Buddha has said this: ================================================================== "Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html Note how the aggregates are treated and the timescales (especially for the body). The timescale is: Birth, Aging, & Death. ""And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to- be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth. "And what is aging? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. "And what is death? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html ================================================================= Pop quiz: When the Buddha has said "Not getting what one wants or getting what one doesn't want is suffering" What did he mean??? Sariputta in MN141 has answered it: "And what is the stress of not getting what is wanted? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html I bet nobody thought that answer. >There is no stability at all in this world of conditioned > dhammas. I agree with this. Best wishes, Alex #89170 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit - Now: KsanikaVADA upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 8/18/2008 6:56:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Howard and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Nina) - > > In a message dated 8/18/2008 5:06:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to > hold to the body composed of he four great elements, rather than >the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of >the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, >three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred >years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' >or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ? >ceases as another. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.061.than.html > > > Note that "Because this body composed of the four great elements >is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, >twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." refutes the >concept of momentariness of the physical body. > > =============================== >I disagree, Alex. This body, along with all else, doesn't remain as- >is for even an instant. It depends on what exactly do you mean by "body". The physical body doesn't disappear & reappear a totally brand new one every second. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The pattern has much consistency to it, but even that changes, and constantly - but subtly. For me, the body is a collection of physical phenomena/events, basically sensations, and they are continually changing. Temperature, for example is in constant flux, and sensations increase, level off, and subside. And when even one element of a collection of elements changes, it is no longer the identical collection. In fact, for me, identity is illusion. ----------------------------------------------- It appears that some people like to play on ambiguity of words and unknowingly come to certain conclussion. I can most certainly agree about momentariness of electrons and such, but they are not "the body" - at least not the sort of the gross body itself, the Buddha was talking about. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't buy momentarism, for it implies a sequence of discrete bundles, each existing for a brief duration of positive length, and I don't believe that anything remains exactly as is for any time at all. There is constant varying, a constant flow of events over time, with no discrete stop-action. ------------------------------------------------ In one of the earliest & first suttas the Buddha has said this: ================================================================== "Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yeah, he sure did. But I don't see how that has any bearing on the matter of constant change. -------------------------------------------------- Note how the aggregates are treated and the timescales (especially for the body). The timescale is: Birth, Aging, & Death. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Each ts a matter of constant, flowing change, with nothing staying as is. ------------------------------------------------ ""And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to- be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth. "And what is aging? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. "And what is death? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.141.than.html ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. I'm missing your point in mentioning that, though. ----------------------------------------------- ================================================================= Pop quiz: When the Buddha has said "Not getting what one wants or getting what one doesn't want is suffering" What did he mean??? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: He meant just what we would expect. Thwarting of desire hurts. What do you suppose I think he meant? ;-) It's straightforward, isn't it? I apologize, Alex, but I'm missing something here. ========================== With metta, Howard #89171 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream egberdina Hi Suan, 2008/8/18 abhidhammika : > > Dear Herman, colette, Scott, Howard, Sukin, Tep, Alex, Phil and all > > > "and we are still just: > ....... lost souls > Swimming in a fish bowl, Year after year, Running over the same old > ground.What have we found? The same old fears." > > My reply to Herman and Scott is: > > If the cap fits it, wear it. > > For me though, as I have no soul (nijjiiva) in the first place, I > can never be a lost soul. That is the advantage of being a Buddhist > atheist. :-) > > You poor theists, happy swimming in a fish bowl! > You sound so Burmese :-) Cheers Herman #89172 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:22 pm Subject: Now: Body truth_aerator Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Alex - > Howard: > The pattern has much consistency to it, but even that changes, >and constantly - but subtly. For me, the body is a collection of >physical phenomena/events, basically sensations, and they are >continually changing. Temperature, > for example is in constant flux, and sensations increase, level >off, and subside. If we break down the body in many parts, then yes, induvidially those parts arise and cease fairly quickly. But the two legged, two armed, gross macro-form exists for a certain period of time. When you see your friends every day, you do recognize their faces, and they recognize yours? So, externally some parts last longer than micro parts. Again, just because some induvidial parts, lets say electrons, have fairly momentary existence, it doesn't follow that the gross body as a whole arises & ceases in an instanteneous fashion. By impermanence of the Body I believe the Buddha has stressed the gross sort of impermanence: (re)Birth-Aging & Death. This was my point with sutta quotes below. >>> >And when even one element of a collection of elements changes, it is >no longer the identical collection. In fact, for me, identity is >illusion. I politely disagree with you here. You are opening a known philosophical ambiguity of what does "identity" means. Ex: If you replace worn out parts of your car with a similiar but newer parts, is it still the same car? It looks the same and it functions the same. Again this philosophical "identity & change" maybe due to ambiguous usage of words, trying to compare parts with the wholes, etc etc. Suffering is Suffering, it is not Happiness. Suffering has a distinct Identity from Happiness. There you have a Buddhist example. Best wishes, Alex #89173 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit - Now: KsanikaVADA egberdina Hi Alex, 2008/8/19 Alex : > Dear Nina, Howard and all, > > > > Note that "Because this body composed of the four great elements is > seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, > thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." refutes the concept > of momentariness of the physical body. > You are quite right, Alex. The following from the Questions of King Milinda is also relevant, I believe. (Bk2 Chapter 2) 1. [40] The king said: 'He who is born, Nâgasena, does he remain the same or become another?' 'Neither the same nor another.' 'Give me an illustration.' 'Now what do you think, O king? You were once a baby, a tender thing, and small in size, lying flat on your back. Was that the same as you who are now grown up?' 'No. That child was one, I am another.' 'If you are not that child, it will follow that you have had neither mother nor father, no! nor teacher. You cannot have been taught either learning, or behaviour, or wisdom. What, great king! is the mother of the embryo in the first stage different from the mother of the embryo in the second stage, or the third, or the fourth? Is the mother of the baby a different person from the mother of the grown-up man? Is the person who goes to school one, and the same when he has finished his schooling another? Is it one who commits a crime, another who is punished by having his hands or feet cut off ?' 'Certainly not. But what would you, Sir, say to that? ' ***The Elder replied: 'I should say that I am the same person, now I am grown up, as I was when I was a tender tiny baby, flat on my back. For all these states are included in one by means of this body.'*** What is continuously identical with itself are the conditions that made this body, and that continue to make this body. Cheers Herman #89174 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:39 pm Subject: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni Sutta indriyabala Dear KenH (Alex and others), - You are right to say that my understanding of the Buddha's Dhamma is "unerringly similar to the way Ven Thanissaro teaches". It is because he teaches and writes about the Buddha's Dhamma. Besides that, you are mostly incorrect about Ajaan Thanissaro; possibly it is due to your misunderstanding or misinterpretation of his articles (Dhamma talks) rather than disrespect. >KenH : >... he refers to action (or kamma) as if it was something that was performed by an actor (or a performer of the action). > He means the anatta principle does not deny there is an atta (a performer of the action). T: May I correct you, Ken? It is the 'atta' in the first sense that is explained in some of my posts here. For example : 1. As "one-self" in the more or less colloquial sense: e.g., 'attaa hi atatno naatho' (Dh. XII, 4/v. 160). http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/75804 >KenH : >Ven T teaches that anatta is not the characteristic "absence of self" that applies to absolutely every existent thing, past present or future. He says it a simply a strategy (or "mental attitude" as you have called it) that can be adopted by meditators in order to calm their minds (to "free their minds from stressful thoughts"). T: It is wrong, Ken. He means 'strategy' in the Dhamma practice, say anatta-sanna in AN 10.60. After a complete training of anatta-sanna, the previous attitude of atta-sanna (perception of a self in the khandhas) is completely abandoned. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.than.html >KenH : > As I understand Ven T the self is consciousness. He says that our consciousness is "bound." I assume that means "concealed by stressful thoughts." And he says our "bound consciousness" becomes "unbound" when, upon enlightenment, its true nature is finally revealed. T: Again, you missed the point. Self is 'atta', and consciousness is 'vinnana' or 'citta'. Unbound is the Arahant's mental state, because there is no trace of lobha, dosa, and moha (i.e. Nibbana). Nibbana is Unbinding or total Release. You might be confused by his chioce of word. Why don't you read this article? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/likefire/index.h tml >KenH: I notice you have deviated from the usual terminology by using the words 'letting go of attachment.' I assume that means "freeing the mind from stressful thoughts." (Corrections welcome.) T: It is getting better everyday; not deviation from the right thing. I meant 'abandoning of clinging' (upadana = clinging; attachment; sustenance for becoming and birth — attachment to sensuality, to views, to precepts and practices, and to theories of the self.). >KenH: I am sorry to have frustrated for you all these years, Tep. I had the same effect on another Thanissaro-following DSG member before you. Let me assure there is nothing personal - no animosity on my part. T: It is very kind of you to feel it that way. But please don't be sorry; it is not your fault. It has been my problem (dukkha) when I am frustrated about anything that is none of my business, Ken. ;-) >KenH: As for your opening remark "this is the "conventional" Buddhist belief," I don't know if you are right or wrong about that. It certainly wasn't the conventional Buddhist belief prior to the advent of Access To Insight and the teachings of Ven Thanissaro, but it might be now. All I know for sure is it is not the teaching that is found in the Pali Canon (or in any of the other ancient Buddhist texts). T: "Coventional" in the sense that it is opposite to "ultimate"; that was what I meant. Yes, it is the same as in the Pali Canon. Send your complaint to the venerable if you see no value his contribution. Tep === #89175 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samvega, Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit egberdina Hi Nina, 2008/8/19 Nina van Gorkom : > Hi Howard, > It would be strange if something is impermanent and still lasts a > while longer. It seems a contradiction. What would be a contradiction of the Buddha's teachings would be for something to be, and then not to be. That is annihilationism, and that is precisely the wrong view entailed by momentary impermanence.The people who concocted this idea as being what the Buddha taught had little regard for the facts. They also found it necessary, for example, to invent the fiction that the Buddha visited their island three times, and established Buddhism there himself. Cheers Herman #89176 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:29 pm Subject: Warnings against taking causality in a "nothing can be done" fashion. truth_aerator Hello Ken and all, "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html ============================================= Book of 6s page 237 text iii, 355, VI, IV, 38 viii (38). Self-acting. "This Master Gotama, is my avowal, this my view: There is no self- agency; no other-agency' Never, brahmin, have I seen or heard of such an avowal, such a view, Pray, how can one step onwards, how can one step back, yet say: There is no self-agency; there is no other-agency? "What think you, brahman, is there such a thing as initiative? 'Yes, sir." 'That being so, are men known to initiate?' 'Yes, sir' 'Well brahman, since there is initiative and men are known to initiate, this is among men the self-agency, this is other agency. What think you, brahmanm is there such a thing as stepping away... stepping forth... halting... standing... and stepping toward anything?' 'Yes, sir' 'That being so, are men known to do all these things?' 'Yes, sir." 'Well, brahmin, since there are such a thing as stepping away, stepping forth and the rest, and men are known to do these things, this is among men the self-agency, this is other-agency. Never, brahman, have I seen or heard of such an avowal, such a view as yours. Pray, how can one step onwards, step back and say: There is no self-agency, there is no other-agency? 'This indeed is wonderful, Master Gotama...! And henceforth, till life ends, I will go to Master Gotama for help.' AN.6.38 ======================================= "Because there actually is action, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next action' is his wrong view. Because there actually is action,when he is resolved that 'There is no action,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is action, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no action,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is action, when he is says that 'There is no action,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who teach action. Because there actually is action, when he persuades another that 'There is no action,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.060.than.html ============================== Best wishes, Alex #89178 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Programmed Behavior ? indriyabala Dear Sarah, - Please allow me to correct myself. I thought you were so cool like a cucumber. Wrong. You are both cooler and smarter than a cucumber. >S: >The reason we have these discussions, which some like yourself find so frustrating, is because we may read the same sutta and yet have a different understanding of what we read. >If asked or encouraged to give a comment, I think we just do our best according to that understanding of these teachings to date. Anytime you come across what seems to you to be a 'consistent programmed response' or a 'flip-flop', I'll be very happy to elaborate. I think that what you have seen as 'flip-flops' have been misunderstandings of my meaning. you're welcome to trace back and raise any such comments of mine again anytime. >As for 'programmed replies' - again I and others just write as we study and understand the teachings, just as you do. That's all, Tep. T: Just like what I told KenH in another post early today, frustration was my problem and it was my responsiblity to correct it. I think I know how now: just think 'this is just a flip-flop; it is not a self or anything pertaining to a self'. As for the 'preprogrammed replies', just think: 'this is mental formations that is empty of self. No Sarah.' >S: >Anyway, next time we discuss the teachings, I'll attempt to avoid robotic responses or flip-flops ....but as you know it's all anatta (oops, 'programmed' response:-)). T: How did it all get to be "programmed" in the first place despite Sarah's right view? Or, was it because of accumulations ? ;-) Tep === #89179 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:51 pm Subject: Re: Warnings .... No Sarah, no Ken H ... indriyabala Dear Alex (KenH, Sarah, Sukin, and others ), - Thank you very much, Alex, for ringing the bell several times about the Buddha's talking about self and doing (an action). Nobody seems to notice your effort, so let me join you in this effort. The Buddha said: "What think you, brahman, is there such a thing as initiative? 'Yes, sir." 'That being so, are men known to initiate?' 'Yes, sir' 'Well brahman, since there is initiative and men are known to initiate, this is among men the self-agency, this is other agency. What think you, brahmanm is there such a thing as stepping away... stepping forth... halting... standing... and stepping toward anything?' 'Yes, sir' 'That being so, are men known to do all these things?' 'Yes, sir." 'Well, brahmin, since there are such a thing as stepping away, stepping forth and the rest, and men are known to do these things, this is among men the self-agency, this is other-agency. Never, brahman, have I seen or heard of such an avowal, such a view as yours. Pray, how can one step onwards, step back and say: There is no self-agency, there is no other-agency? [AN.6.38] ............................... T: This sutta is a great education : there are a few different meanings of atta (self); don't jump to the programmed conclusion that there is no-one doing anything. No Sarah! No KenH! Only the ultimate realities exist. Tep === #89180 From: "connie" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:55 pm Subject: Re: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... nichiconn dear Howard, Howard: > I don't find craving at all pleasant, Ken! I don't find it neutral either. I find it unpleasant - ranging from mildly so to intensely so. ---------------- KH: Yes, but that is exactly my point. Worldlings can give dictionary definitions of craving, but they (we) don't know exactly what it is. In your example it seems to you that craving and domanosa arise at the same time. Most people think "love hurts" but, according to the Buddha, it doesn't! The root condition that arises with unpleasant feeling is dosa, not lobha. The dosa of not getting what one craves may arise soon after the craving, and so the worldling gets confused. -------------------------------------------------- c: Ken's right. Abhidhamma teaches that if the citta is akusala, the accompanying feeling, whether pleasant or otherwise, is also akusala; and yes, that the akusala feeling with lobha is either pleasant or neutral (although the lobha may have been conditioned by unpleasant feeling). Happy to think you're no longer enjoying indulging in sex, though, rather than still being in bondage. peace, connie #89181 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream indriyabala Dear Herman, - Let's work together. >Herman: >There is recognisable and identifiable fruit of the contemplative >life, and it is well-described in DN02. There is recognisable and >identifiable fruit of intellectual understandings of all sorts, and >it's characteristic is endless proliferation. I think your quest of >overcoming peacefully is admirable, and worthy of emulation, >and you have my full support in that. How can anyone say that Herman is not a Buddhist!? Only Buddhists understand DN 2. Thank you for the kind intention. Peace for all, Tep === #89182 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samvega, Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit scottduncan2 Dear Herman (and Nina), H: "What would be a contradiction of the Buddha's teachings would be for something to be, and then not to be. That is annihilationism, and that is precisely the wrong view entailed by momentary impermanence..." Scott: I think the only missing aspect in the above definition of annihilationism is the central point that annihilationism is the belief in the existence of a soul or self that is and then is not. Impermanence due to rise and fall is not annihilationism. Sincerely, Scott. #89183 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream egberdina Hi Sukin, 2008/8/18 Sukinder : > > That being the case, I think that you will agree also, that the view > about practice each one of us holds is either right or it is wrong, > and therefore if we perceive ours to be right, there is no reason to > think "maybe". In other words if we think along the lines that our > position is right and that others whose view are quite different, in > fact even opposed, that they too could be right, then we can be sure > that our own *must* be wrong!! You are quite mistaken in putting this absolute value on being right and wrong. This is from the advice given to the Kalamas, who were faced with a situation, not unlike our own here at dsg, with some believing they are absolutely right. "As they sat there, the Kalamas of Kesaputta said to the Blessed One, "Lord, there are some priests & contemplatives who come to Kesaputta. They expound & glorify their own doctrines, but as for the doctrines of others, they deprecate them, revile them, show contempt for them, & disparage them. And then other priests & contemplatives come to Kesaputta. They expound & glorify their own doctrines, but as for the doctrines of others, they deprecate them, revile them, show contempt for them, & disparage them. They leave us absolutely uncertain & in doubt: Which of these venerable priests & contemplatives are speaking the truth, and which ones are lying?" Apart from the well-known advice, the Buddha also says the following to them: "Now, Kalamas, one who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires four assurances in the here-&-now: "'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires. "'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires. "'If evil is done through acting, still I have willed no evil for anyone. Having done no evil action, from where will suffering touch me?' This is the third assurance he acquires. "'But if no evil is done through acting, then I can assume myself pure in both respects.' This is the fourth assurance he acquires. "One who is a disciple of the noble ones — his mind thus free from hostility, free from ill will, undefiled, & pure — acquires these four assurances in the here-&-now." Please note that the Buddha doesn't say There is a world after death, or There isn't a world after death. Please note he doesn't say Evil is done through acting or Evil is not done through acting. He doesn't say This view is right or That view is wrong. Being right or wrong, it turns out, is quite irrelevant to a disciple of the noble ones. Cheers Herman #89184 From: mlnease Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:15 pm Subject: Re: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... m_nease Hi Connie, Ken and All, connie wrote: > > KH: Yes, but that is exactly my point. Worldlings can give dictionary > definitions of craving, but they (we) don't know exactly what it is. In > your example it seems to you that craving and domanosa arise at the same > time. Most people think "love hurts" but, according to the Buddha, it > doesn't! The root condition that arises with unpleasant feeling is dosa, > not lobha. > > The dosa of not getting what one craves may arise soon after the > craving, and so the worldling gets confused. > -------------------------------------------------- > > c: Ken's right. Abhidhamma teaches that if the citta is akusala, the > accompanying feeling, whether pleasant or otherwise, is also akusala; > and yes, that the akusala feeling with lobha is either pleasant or > neutral (although the lobha may have been conditioned by unpleasant > feeling). Exactly right, this is why I find abhidhamma indispensable. Before my introduction to abhidhamma, for example, I thought that stinginess and envy were forms of lobha. Until I began to understand that they're forms of dosa, and that dosa only arises with unpleasant feeling, I had no hope of retrospectively understanding the akusala kamma of everyday life even superficially. I see this as an example of sutamaya pa~n~naa, a necessary condition for cintamaya pa~n~naa etc. mike #89185 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samvega, Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/8/19 Scott : > Dear Herman (and Nina), > > H: "What would be a contradiction of the Buddha's teachings would be for > something to be, and then not to be. That is annihilationism, and that > is precisely the wrong view entailed by momentary impermanence..." > > Scott: I think the only missing aspect in the above definition of > annihilationism is the central point that annihilationism is the > belief in the existence of a soul or self that is and then is not. > Impermanence due to rise and fall is not annihilationism. My understanding is that both the existence and non-existence of [anything] is rejected by the Buddha. From SN12:15 "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. Impermanence as a being, then a not being of anything, whether it be dhammas or souls, qualifies as an annihilationist view IMO. Cheers Herman #89186 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Now: Body upasaka_howard Hi Alex - In a message dated 8/18/2008 8:22:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Alex - > Howard: > The pattern has much consistency to it, but even that changes, >and constantly - but subtly. For me, the body is a collection of >physical phenomena/events, basically sensations, and they are >continually changing. Temperature, > for example is in constant flux, and sensations increase, level >off, and subside. If we break down the body in many parts, then yes, induvidially those parts arise and cease fairly quickly. But the two legged, two armed, gross macro-form exists for a certain period of time. When you see your friends every day, you do recognize their faces, and they recognize yours? So, externally some parts last longer than micro parts. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree that the overall pattern has a good degree of stability, with the changes subtle - often to subtle to notice until they have accumulated. ---------------------------------------------------- Again, just because some induvidial parts, lets say electrons, have fairly momentary existence, it doesn't follow that the gross body as a whole arises & ceases in an instanteneous fashion. By impermanence of the Body I believe the Buddha has stressed the gross sort of impermanence: (re)Birth-Aging & Death. This was my point with sutta quotes below. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that change at all levels is the fact, I think that macro-change is easier to observe and that the realization of it certainly turns one's mind towards matters of what is important and what is not. However, I believe that it is the realization of change at the finest level that is truly liberating. This is one thing that Goenka emphasizes that I agree with. ------------------------------------------------------ >>> >And when even one element of a collection of elements changes, it is >no longer the identical collection. In fact, for me, identity is >illusion. I politely disagree with you here. You are opening a known philosophical ambiguity of what does "identity" means. Ex: If you replace worn out parts of your car with a similiar but newer parts, is it still the same car? It looks the same and it functions the same. Again this philosophical "identity & change" maybe due to ambiguous usage of words, trying to compare parts with the wholes, etc etc. Suffering is Suffering, it is not Happiness. Suffering has a distinct Identity from Happiness. There you have a Buddhist example. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't disagree that phenomena can be distinguished. Sights certainly are different from sounds. Yet there is nothing that has "own nature" or even "own being", because nothing exists or arises on its own, and also, as I see it, nothing remains exactly the same for even an instant, and, in a way, that implies that there are no real entities at all. (My definition of samsara: "The appearance realm of separate things") ----------------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Alex ============================= With metta, Howard #89187 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samvega, Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Nina) - In a message dated 8/18/2008 8:48:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Nina, 2008/8/19 Nina van Gorkom : > Hi Howard, > It would be strange if something is impermanent and still lasts a > while longer. It seems a contradiction. What would be a contradiction of the Buddha's teachings would be for something to be, and then not to be. That is annihilationism, and that is precisely the wrong view entailed by momentary impermanence.The people who concocted this idea as being what the Buddha taught had little regard for the facts. They also found it necessary, for example, to invent the fiction that the Buddha visited their island three times, and established Buddhism there himself. Cheers Herman ============================= I think this is an important point, Herman. What you say is part of the reason that I don't accept discrete momentarism. It is a perspective that, IMO, countenances both substantialism and annihilationism. With metta, Howard #89188 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:49 pm Subject: Re: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 8/18/2008 9:55:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: dear Howard, Howard: > I don't find craving at all pleasant, Ken! I don't find it neutral either. I find it unpleasant - ranging from mildly so to intensely so. ---------------- KH: Yes, but that is exactly my point. Worldlings can give dictionary definitions of craving, but they (we) don't know exactly what it is. In your example it seems to you that craving and domanosa arise at the same time. Most people think "love hurts" but, according to the Buddha, it doesn't! The root condition that arises with unpleasant feeling is dosa, not lobha. The dosa of not getting what one craves may arise soon after the craving, and so the worldling gets confused. -------------------------------------------------- c: Ken's right. Abhidhamma teaches that if the citta is akusala, the accompanying feeling, whether pleasant or otherwise, is also akusala; and yes, that the akusala feeling with lobha is either pleasant or neutral (although the lobha may have been conditioned by unpleasant feeling). Happy to think you're no longer enjoying indulging in sex, though, rather than still being in bondage. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Sex is pleasant, Connie. Craving it is unpleasant. I stand by what I said - Ken and Abhidhamma notwithstanding. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- peace, connie ============================= With metta, Howard #89189 From: "Leo" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:03 pm Subject: too natural leoaive hi i see many rock art sculptures and as i know when it comes to rock art it should be unnatural. so if i see robes or clothes on body it is too natural. as i understand maybe wood or something you can not wear on body would be unnatural and proper for rock art. with metta leo #89190 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream indriyabala Dear Herman, - Let me give my last words tonight, before going to sleep. >Herman: >Being right or wrong, it turns out, is quite irrelevant to a disciple of the noble ones. T: Along the same line of reasoning, asking 'Is there a self?' or 'Is there not self?' is not relevant, unlike the right view [that is not extreme]. Tep === #89191 From: "connie" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:44 pm Subject: Subject: Re: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... nichiconn ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Sex is pleasant, Connie. Craving it is unpleasant. I stand by what I said - Ken and Abhidhamma notwithstanding. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- c: Sex is not necessarily pleasant, Howard but when it is, are you sure there's no desire/craving/lobha involved? When you say "Craving is unpleasant" I think you mean "Not getting what we want is unpleasant" & that they sound pretty much the same but aren't. peace, connie #89192 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:00 pm Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... egberdina Hi connie, 2008/8/19 connie : > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Sex is pleasant, Connie. Craving it is unpleasant. I stand by what I said - Ken and Abhidhamma notwithstanding. ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------- > c: Sex is not necessarily pleasant, Howard but when it is, are you sure there's no desire/craving/lobha involved? When you say "Craving is unpleasant" I think you mean "Not getting what we want is unpleasant" & that they sound pretty much the same but aren't. > Is this possibly another case where a well-known word is arbitrarily being redefined? When I refer to craving, I refer to the common meaning of wanting what is absent (in a range of degrees). I agree with Howard that craving is unpleasant. And I would add that it is sating of craving that is what is pleasant. What do you mean by craving? Cheers Herman #89193 From: "connie" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:33 pm Subject: Re: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... nichiconn dear Herman, > c: Sex is not necessarily pleasant, Howard but when it is, are you sure there's no desire/craving/lobha involved? When you say "Craving is unpleasant" I think you mean "Not getting what we want is unpleasant" & that they sound pretty much the same but aren't. > Is this possibly another case where a well-known word is arbitrarily being redefined? When I refer to craving, I refer to the common meaning of wanting what is absent (in a range of degrees). I agree with Howard that craving is unpleasant. And I would add that it is sating of craving that is what is pleasant. What do you mean by craving? c: Lust, hope, want, clinging, liking, covetousness, attachment, etc.; all lobha. The same thing that usually motivates me to put the next bite in my mouth, take a walk, keep looking at something pleasant or even to breathe. peace, connie #89194 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:40 pm Subject: Re: Warning - Tongue in Cheek Response Re: [dsg] Re: kayagatasati - Bhikkhuni... egberdina Hi connie, 2008/8/19 connie : > dear Herman, > >> c: Sex is not necessarily pleasant, Howard but when it is, are you sure > there's no desire/craving/lobha involved? When you say "Craving is unpleasant" > I think you mean "Not getting what we want is unpleasant" & that they sound > pretty much the same but aren't. >> > > Is this possibly another case where a well-known word is arbitrarily > being redefined? When I refer to craving, I refer to the common > meaning of wanting what is absent (in a range of degrees). I agree > with Howard that craving is unpleasant. And I would add that it is > sating of craving that is what is pleasant. What do you mean by > craving? > > c: Lust, hope, want, clinging, liking, covetousness, attachment, etc.; all lobha. The same thing that usually motivates me to put the next bite in my mouth, take a walk, keep looking at something pleasant or even to breathe. Thanks for that clarification. So do you maintain that needing the next breath is pleasant? Cheers Herman #89195 From: Sukinder Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream sukinderpal Dear Rinze, (Tep, Nina and all), Welcome to DSG. But you will soon associate my name with ‘loooong posts’ and perhaps this will condition each time, some boredom just on seeing my name in the message index. ;-) ================ > > Sukin: This is not the first time that this has happened. And as > you note, the reason for the frustration is `self', and this is > something we all face in our day to day relationships. Rinze: > I think the superficial reason for this frustration is Boredom, > Sukin, since we are faced with the same situation, day-in and day- > out, the same old members discussing the same old topics and so on > and so forth. In fact, why does Nina or Larry or others change the > topic of discussion from time to time? > > Apart from the fact that we develop our knowledge of the Dhamma, > there comes a time when, frustrations of this sort would creep in on > us, when we confine ourselves only to discussions. S: I agree about the superficial reason, which I too experience from time to time. My solution to some posters however, is that I simply don’t read half of what they write. My reason is not so much repetition, but my own accumulated tendency to react with aversion to statements I find unreasonable. And I won’t deny the expectations, which is why as you suggest, “frustrations creep in on us”. In the past as a solution, I had suggested to Tep not to feel obliged to respond to all posts addressed to him. But this time I responded to his suggestion of the need to ‘let go of self’. However I was thinking not only about Tanha, but also Mana and Ditthi, all of which seem to arise from time to time when involved in such discussions. Regarding repetition, when this is about Dhamma, I have little problem. I don’t mind hearing and discussing about what others may consider being ‘same old topic’. The problem would be in the manner that these discussions are handled by some, which in fact includes an unwillingness to discuss those things that really matter and pertain to our moment to moment experiences. Instead they go on to being conceptual proliferations rooted in wrong understanding about Theory and Practice or otherwise ‘talk’ about those things which we at our level of understanding, can only philosophize about. ================ Rinze: > Sotanamaya panna, > chintanamaya panna, bhavanamaya panna. What we read, listen, we > should think, reflect. And then we should practice. Only then will > behavioral changers take effect in the mind. Otherwise frustration > leads to more frustration. This is Dhukka. S: I would suggest simply, to “study” or “develop understanding”. Suttamaya panna, Cintamaya panna and Bhavanamaya panna, I separate these only to show that they refer to different levels of wisdom and with different objects. But I wouldn’t want to give an impression that I could at any time choose to be involved in any one of these. There are after all only dhammas and all dhammas are anatta. The three levels of panna must therefore refer to a dhamma, and this must be anatta, i.e. beyond control. Also I wouldn’t want on the one hand to understate the role of Suttamaya panna by suggesting that this does not make a difference in terms of one’s attitude / behavior and on the other hand to think that Bhavanamaya panna before vipassana, can bring any significant change. In fact the kind of Dukkha that you seem to be referring to, a Sotapanna and Sakadagami still experiences. ============= Rinze: > It must be seen in our every activity. If not the cause of Dhukka will not be comprehended. S: Now I’m not sure which kind of Dukkha you are referring to….. ============= Rinze: > Take the leaking tap in your home. Do you see it as a problem? Yes. > `That is the 1st truth. Then you investigate, and find the cause, to > be a wasted washer. That is the 2nd truth. Is there a need, to solve > the problem? Yes, that is why it is a problem. That is the 3rd > truth. So we go to the hardware store, buy a rubber washer, and fix > the problem, the 4th truth. The 4 Noble Truths is also causally > linked in this way. But, unless we see Dukkha in our activities, we > will not be motivated to find its cause. Without knowing the cause, > we would not find the way. S: I was just pointing out the other day, to a new comer to Buddhism who in referring to result of “meditation” was questioning why we should not go by any action that resulted in happiness. I suggested distinguishing between the three kinds of dukkhata and that everyone knew dukkha dukkhata, but that most would then simply react by seeking happiness / pleasure. Because of ignorance, this would be directly through the five sense-doors or through the mind door; the latter includes that which comes with ‘meditation’. But the illusion is that one thinks one is evil and the other not. With regard to the second kind namely viparinama dukkhata, even this can be reacted to with, “So what? Sometimes there is pain, but pleasure can still nevertheless be sought and had, even if this is temporary and possibly followed by displeasure.” I then suggested that it is Sankhara dukkhata which needs to be appreciated more. And this does not have to only be by ‘direct experience’, suffice that we do so in principle. In fact understanding this is a condition for better understanding of the other two kinds of dukkhata. Dukkha dukkhata is ‘unpleasant feeling’ which is impermanent, suffering and beyond control. Viparinama dukkhata is ‘pleasant feeling’ and this too is anicca, dukkha and anatta. Sankhara dukkhata refers to all dhammas but is often expressed in terms of ‘neutral feeling’, and this reminds us of the danger of “ignorance”, and is essential if there is going to be any progress along the Path. All this can and must be understood at the level of Suttamaya panna and I would say there is no limit as to how deeply we can understand this better. Of course I factor in Cintamaya panna and Bhavanamaya panna which must occasionally arise to inform the Suttamaya panna. However, I believe it to be a grave mistake to think that we can at anytime decide to hold back hearing and to move on to reflecting and practice. This latter idea imo, in fact seems to come from an as yet undeveloped suttamaya panna, being one which reflects an as yet weak understanding about conditionality. =============== Rinze: > In the 4 Foundations of Mindfulness, Lord Buddha speaks of Kaya > Anupassana first. Why? Because it is the most gross factor, readily > seen by the wise. Only thereafter, does He expose the subtle nature > of the Dhamma, such as Impermanence, Suffering and Not self. S: Do you really think that the Buddha mentioned kaya first for this reason? We have wrong view with regard to objects of all six door ways and we constantly make statements about mental realities, such as attachment, aversion, feeling, remembrance, friendliness, mindfulness etc. etc! And how can we focus on any ‘concept’ (of reality) without risk of ending up with a perverted sense of cause and effect, for example kamma / vipakka and D.O.? Moreover, how can it be expected that the visesa lakkhana, not to mention the Tilakkhana, be understood when suggestion to focus / observe/ note is “thinking” and encouraging of more thinking only, given that we have not even begun to distinguish reality from concept, let alone become familiar with the characteristic of “Sati”. Our reaction to every suggestion up until now has been with lobha, dosa and moha. Without having developed much panna and knowing amongst other things, the difference between sati and lobha, would we not end up with the latter mistaking it for the former and hence accumulate more wrong view? I think that you were mistaken in another post, about what Nina said with regard to ‘meditation’. You wrote: “So, your contention is that, as layman, we are too busy, to set aside a time and place as such, for meditation. And a Bhikku, who develops both Samatha and Vipassana, is in a different situation, since he is not a layperson.” The implication as I see it, of what Nina was saying, is that we are laypersons *because* we are “busy” (reacting with lobha, dosa, mana and so on). However being who we are, we should feel fortunate for having heard the Dhamma and developing understanding as per our accumulated tendencies. And I don’t think that Nina was suggesting that Bhikkhus had more time for samatha and so called vipassana meditation. Rather, he is one who sees the dustiness of the lay life and is not attracted to it. He becomes a Bhikkhu therefore not in order to “meditate”, but to develop understanding in “his” daily life “naturally” as per *his accumulations* and if this includes the higher level of samatha practice, namely Jhana, then he may “sit in a quiet place and do his thing”. However, none of this is about “having more time”! Such an idea misses the point and is quite misleading. More misleading is the idea of “time for vipassana meditation”, there is no place for this in the Dhamma! ================ Rinze: > It's not everybody, who would understand to the point of being motivated, > to investigate such subtle nature of the Dhamma, at the outset. > > Dukkha-dukkha, manasika dukkha, cetasika dukkha, viparinama dukkha, > sankara dukkha, these are like the progressively inner layers of an > onion, which must be `peeled' off first, to realize the core > Teachings of the Dhamma, such as Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta, the signs > of meditation. S: I don’t know manasika dukkha and cetasika dukkha, but let’s leave these for now. As I pointed out earlier in this post, I don’t think that any progress along the Path can be had if there is yet no understanding about the danger of ignorance. This comes with understanding about Sankhara dukkha. The understanding can be intellectual or pariyatti and it must be strong enough if any patipatti can be expected to arise. I agree that in experience, dukkha dukkha is easier to notice, followed by viparinama dukkha and that sankhara dukkha is the hardest. However it does not follow that one can then expect to ‘learn’ by referring to say, dukkha dukkha alone. “Pariyatti” must include the fact of *this moment being conditioned*, else we take it for “self” and no ‘learning’ will ever then take place. ================ Rinze: > There is no doubt about the 8 fold path being the only way, but > consensus on `constant positions' expressed in this panel shouldn't > be the deciding factor of what is `Right View', don't you think? S: I was referring to Tep’s perception and not taking this to be determining of the rightness. =============== > > That being the case, I think that you will agree also, that the > view about practice each one of us holds is either right or it is > wrong, and therefore if we perceive ours to be right, there is no reason > to think "maybe". In other words if we think along the lines that our > > position is right and that others whose view are quite different, in > > fact even opposed, that they too could be right, then we can be sure > > that our own *must* be wrong!! There is no place in the Dhamma for > > "doubt" and there is no virtue in being so called "open minded" > about the Dhamma itself when it comes to interpretation. Rinze: > I don't quite follow you here Sukin. S: It’s like this: When we understand the N8FP, we also understand that it is the ‘One and only Way’. If we are not sure about whether we are correct about the N8FP or that others with a differing view may also be right, this reflects our own failure at understanding what the N8FP really is. Being “open minded” in this regard is therefore likely the expression of doubt or else Wrong Understanding. ============== > > And if indeed the view expressed by some of us is "wrong", the only > > way that this will be dropped is by way of an education in "Right > > View" isn't it? So instead of just waiting to see members of DSG > > drop the view 'Only this is right', why don't you continue to put > > forward your own understanding of the Dhamma? Rinze: > I think each of us must know it from within, of what is right or > wrong practice. This is what is meant by `Paccattam veditabbo > vinnuhi." Education will serve as for as thought goes. The subtle > nature of the Dhamma is even beyond thinking and reasoning. S: At the moment of Right Understanding, no outside stamp of approval is needed nor words to explain. However words are needed to teach and to ‘learn about’ the Dhamma. The Buddha used many words to teach some and we have heard much, much more in this lifetime. The fact that we are still far from experiencing insight, is because we in fact sometimes come up with ‘wrong interpretations’. These are the personal commentaries which serves to counter even more forcefully any prospect for Right Understanding to arise. This imo, is one reason that we need to hear even more, the words of wisdom by the Buddha. :-) Forgive me for the long post, especially since you don’t have a computer of your own to use. I won’t mind it if you decide not to respond at all. Metta, Sukin #89196 From: "colette" Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:52 am Subject: Melatonin vs. Seratonin, now that's a conflict huh? ksheri3 "Next wave New Wave Dance craze Any ways It's still rock & roll to me" composer unknown Good Morning Connie, A pleasure to contact you this morning. <...> One thing that's struck me very heavily is: "The insecurity of life. Our hidden karma." So, can this mean that: Insecurity of Life = Hidden Karma? Is karma something other than hidden? How can karma be hidden? Ahhhhh, "Transmigration", now there's a heretical word in the Christian doctrine if I ever heard one. Slow down, are you suggesting that Christianity has nothing to do with Buddhism simply because a mere half of the world practices it? Do you mean to go so far as defending those charlattans in the Christian main frame that operate their robots as a means of protecting yourself within your nice secure world of Buddhism? If so, John Lennon proceeded me: "Instant karma's gonna get you", no? <...> Well, connie, thank you for focusing me today on researching DREAM TIME since I had/have already done the priliminary research on the "Stages or Levels of Sleep" while I was preparing myself in Western kabbalistic sites, for this complete immersion in the best information/analysis of the actual existance of the esoteric/occult reality. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear dreamers, > > this thread reminds me of Sarah's side-note on the Sisters translations in #73715: "#73085, Bodhi has Vijayaa 'sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding', while Mrs RD has her 'sat down.....for siesta'!!" > ..... #89197 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:12 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 7, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Nåmas and rúpas appear one at a time through the six doors. They have different characteristics and these characteristics should be known. Characteristic was another term people asked us to explain. Each reality has its own specific characteristic by which it can be distinguished from other realities. Visible object has a characteristic which is different from sound. Visible object is experienced through the eyesense, it cannot be experienced through the earsense. Sound is experienced through the earsense, it cannot be experienced through the eyesense. Visible object has a characteristic which is different from seeing. Visible object is rúpa; it does not know anything, it cannot see. Seeing experiences visible object, it is nåma, different from rúpa. We are inclined to “join” seeing and visible object into a “whole”, instead of being mindful of their different characteristics as they appear one at a time. So long as we do not distinguish the different characteristics of nåma and rúpa, we cling to the concept of person or self and there is ignorance of realities. Is there an idea of “I” who sees, or is there a person or thing in the visible object? The specific characteristics (visesa lakkhana) of nåma and rúpa can be known more clearly in being mindful of them when they appear. Nåma should be known as nåma and rúpa as rúpa. Later on, when paññå is more developed, the general characteristics (såmañña lakkhana) of nåma and rúpa can be realized and that is: the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå. Before the general characteristics can be penetrated, the specific characteristics of realities should be known. When there is awareness of visible object and it is realized as rúpa, there is already a beginning of understanding as not self. It is rúpa, not a person or thing. When there is awareness of seeing and this is realized as nåma, there is a beginning of understanding of its nature of not self. It is nåma which sees, not “I”. Sati and right understanding are accumulated little by little. Accumulation was another term people requested us to define. Someone found it difficult to understand how a tendency such as lobha can be accumulated. Each citta which arises falls away completely, how then can a tendency be accumulated? Each citta which arises falls away completely, but it conditions the next citta, it is succeeded by the next citta. That is the reason why good tendencies and bad tendencies are carried on from moment to moment. When we are fast asleep and not dreaming there is no lobha. When we wake up lobha arises again. Where does it come from? It must have conditions for its arising. It can arise because lobha as been accumulated and it is carried on from moment to moment. Our attachment today is conditioned by attachment in the past, and attachment today conditions in its turn attachment in the future. ****** Nina. #89198 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:18 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 294, 295 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 294, 295. Intro: In the preceding sections it was explained that there were five causes in the past: ignorance, formations (sa”nkhaara), craving, clinging and kamma-process becoming. In the following sections it is explained that there is at the present time a fivefold fruit: rebirth-linking, which is 'consciousness'; descent [into the womb], which is 'mentality- materiality' (cetasika and ruupa); sensitivity, which is 'sense base'; 'contact' and 'feeling'. Contact and feeling are in this case arising with vipaakacitta, they are results. ---------- Text Vis. 294: 'And now there is a fivefold fruit' means what is given in the text beginning with consciousness and ending with feeling, according as it is said: 'Here [in the present becoming] there is rebirth-linking, which is 'consciousness'; there is descent [into the womb], which is 'mentality-materiality'; there is sensitivity, which is 'sense base'; there is what is touched, which is 'contact'; there is what is felt, which is 'feeling'; thus these five things here in the [present] rebirth-process becoming have their conditions in kamma done in the past' (Ps.i,52). ---------- Text Vis. 295: Herein, there is 'rebirth-linking, which is consciousness' means that it is what is called 'rebirth-linking' because it arises linking the next becoming that is consciousness. -------- N: The dying-consciousness falls away and it is immediately followed by the rebirth-consciousness. The rebirth-consciousness links the previous life with the following life. --------- Text Vis.: 'There is descent [into the womb], which is mentality- materiality' means that it is what consists in the descent of the material and immaterial states into a womb, their arrival and entry as it were, that is mentality-materiality. 'There is sensitivity, which is sense base': this is said of the five bases beginning with the eye. ------- N: The sense-bases are physical results of kamma. Kamma produces them. -------- Text Vis.: 'There is what is touched, which is contact' means that it is what is arisen when an object is touched or in the touching of it, that is contact. 'There is what is felt, which is feeling' means that it is what is felt as results [of kamma] that is arisen together with rebirth-linking consciousness, or with the contact that has the sixfold base as its condition, that is feeling. Thus should the meaning be understood. --------- N: The Tiika refers to the texts of the Pa.tisambhidaamagga and the Vibhanga, when explaining the meanings of bhava, becoming, that is cause, kamma-process becoming, or becoming that is result, upapatti- bhava, rebirth-process becoming. The Vibhanga (234) explains that all action leading to becoming is kammabhava. It explains that kusala cetanaa etc. is called sa”nkhaara. The Pa.tisambhidaamagga explains that the vipaaka-dhammas that are accompanied by cetanaa are also called sa”nkhaara, because of their being formed, conditioned, by aayuhaana, accumulated kamma (aayuuhana-sa”nkhaatena). The Tiika then elaborates on the two meanings of bhava, becoming. ------- Conclusion: Birth is conditioned by kamma that has been accumulated. It has been accumulated in the past and therefore, nobody can interfere with rebirth to be in this way or that way. The meaning of relinking (bhavantara) has been emphasized in section 295 . We read in the Vis. XIX, 23: “Just as eye consciousness comes next Following on mind element [eyedoor adverting consciousness] Which, though it does not come from that, Yet fails not next to be produced, So too, in rebirth-linking, conscious Continuity takes place: The prior consciousness breaks up, The subsequent is born from that, They have no interval between, Nor gap [that separates the two]; while naught whatever passes over, Still rebirth-linking comes about.” ******** Nina. #89199 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samvega, Was: (some) Avijja & Conceit egberdina Hi Howard, 2008/8/19 : > Hi, Herman (and Nina) - > > >> It would be strange if something is impermanent and still lasts a >> while longer. It seems a contradiction. > > What would be a contradiction of the Buddha's teachings would be for > something to be, and then not to be. That is annihilationism, and that > is precisely the wrong view entailed by momentary impermanence.The > people who concocted this idea as being what the Buddha taught had > little regard for the facts. They also found it necessary, for > example, to invent the fiction that the Buddha visited their island > three times, and established Buddhism there himself. > > Cheers > > > Herman > ============================= > I think this is an important point, Herman. What you say is part of the > reason that I don't accept discrete momentarism. It is a perspective that, > IMO, countenances both substantialism and annihilationism. > I fully agree. Cheers Herman