#89800 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 6:38 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,298 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 298. 4.'With triple round it spins for ever' (par. 288): here formations and becoming are the 'round of kamma'. Ignorance, craving and clinging are the 'round of defilements'. Consciousness, mentality-materiality, the sixfold base, contact and feeling are the 'round of result'. So this Wheel of Becoming, having a triple round with these three rounds, should be understood to spin, revolving again and again, forever; for the conditions are not cut off as the round of defilements is not cut off. ************************ 298. tiva.t.tamanava.t.thita.m bhamatiiti ettha pana sa"nkhaarabhavaa kammava.t.ta.m, avijjaata.nhupaadaanaani kilesava.t.ta.m, vi~n~naa.nanaamaruupasa.laayatanaphassavedanaa vipaakava.t.tanti imehi tiihi va.t.tehi tiva.t.tamida.m bhavacakka.m yaava kilesava.t.ta.m na upacchijjati, taava anupacchinnapaccayattaa anava.t.thita.m punappuna.m parivattanato bhamatiyevaati veditabba.m. #89801 From: "Tep" Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:31 pm Subject: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important dhammanusarin Hi, all DSG members, - A good news for everyone! I have found a Dhamma talk by Ajahn Sumedho that very effectively clarifies all kinds of issues we have discussed on self identification views (sakkhaya-ditthi), anatta, attaching and clinging, sankhara, the Four Noble Truths, thinkings, awareness (satisampajanna) here and now, letting go, and more. This Dhamma talk answers all the major questions I used to have about self, no self, not self, awareness and pa~n~na in the present moment. It is just like a huge blower that blows away all the dusts(=doubts) from my mind! Find out for yourself if this talk can also greatly benefit you. T08-08_A_Sumedho_Whats_so_Important.mp3 13879K Play Download I am not sure that the above link may or may not connect you to the source because this Yahoo! email facility may not allow it. In case it fails, please search the Web for this Ajahn Sumedho's talk. Yours truly, Tep === #89802 From: Sukinder Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 7:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] annata sukinderpal Hi Howard, I was having difficulty putting into words my thoughts, those arisen sporadically while reading your posts to Sarah and others. I still can’t pin down exactly what it is that I have in mind, so I’m still not sure if I can express myself better now, but will try. ============== Sukin: Taking into consideration that there is only one citta experiencing one object at a time, I think you will agree that what we designate as ‘self and other’ in our interactions, must be associated with that “one fleeting cittaâ€? at that moment. Howard: I don't understand that at all, Sukin. At any point in time, there are, what(?), trillions of people, animals, etc that are conscious? What are you asserting here? I don't get your point. Whatever is in process at any instant is what is in process at that instant. What else are you asserting? S: Satipatthana is the level of panna that knows ‘characteristic’ of dhammas. Concepts are thought about hence they don’t exhibit characteristics to be objects of satipatthana. When ‘others’ are the object of experience, the realities underlying and possibility of being known by panna, will be rupa such as visible object, smell, softness, or nama such as thinking, perception, feeling etc. In all these experiences, no statement need to be made about the existence of others, just as in the experience of what we take for our ‘self’, all that is found are nama and rupa only. Out of convenience we talk in terms of ‘self’, I and other or ‘this stream of consciousness’ vs. ‘that stream’. However I think, this in conventional living and dhamma discussions is meant only to distinguish one person from the other and is not meant to add some further attribute. I don’t see why we should go on to talk about streams of cittas interacting with other steams when the fact of the matter is that one citta can experience and come to know directly only one object at a time and if this is not a paramattha dhamma, it must be concept only? When the citta is with aversion, jealousy, miserliness etc. the object at the time is ‘concept’ of a person. Likewise when there is giving, morality, loving kindness and compassion, the object is concept. However in either of these, there is never a need to ever qualify this concept with “realityâ€?. Also note that only when amoha arises of the appropriate level is any statement about “realityâ€? ever made. And this is only four of the 89 types of cittas. Conversely, only four cittas, those arising with wrong view, only these will assert the existence of ‘persons’ etc. =================== Sukin: However, since this citta arises and falls away purely by conditions that are equally fleeting, none of these experiences can in fact be considered ‘self’. Howard: I'm not clear on what you think "this" citta is. In any case, where does "self" come into this? S: I think ‘self’ comes in for example, when the *existence* of ‘interrelated streams of consciousness’ are asserted to explain what goes on when people interact. Or when in talking about one’s own experiences, the concept of ‘dhammas arising in relation’ is spoken of not in terms of one fleeting moment but something which lasts long enough to include what goes on, say, in other parts of the body. Note that my own use of ‘people’ and ‘body’ is meant only conventionally. ============ Howard: At any point in time, there is a near-infinite number of instances of consciousness, each within a single stream of conditionality. These streams of experience, while certainly interacting, are nonetheless distinguishable. But every stream is just a collection of (relatively closely interrelated) phenomena, each one of which is fleeting, conditioned, dependent, and not-self. S: Why can’t we just say that one citta arises to experience an object including when we think we are interacting with people, and none of this is ever the “realityâ€? of a person, but is the same namas and rupas arising as when say, we are watching characters in a movie, the difference being that the sanna marking differently giving the impression of one being real and the other not? You might say that there “is a differenceâ€? in the two and I will agree. The difference however, would be limited to the fact of one being associated with citta arising and falling away, and the other not. But how do I know this? Sanna and thinking, that is all!! Let’s take the example of trying to talk to a deaf person who has his head turned to another direction. No matter how loud you speak, it is not going to be one of those conditions which will at some point cause him to perhaps look in your direction and acknowledge your presence. The fact is that, simply he has no kamma which produces ear sense and no matter how many millions of people are around him, *no effect* is there in this regard. Were there to be a doctor to come out and cure him, the fact that he begins to then ‘hear’ will be due to his past kamma bearing fruit. The doctor from his side is motivated due to the different perceptions and intentions to do as he did, including seeing, sanna, vedana, thinking, metta, karuna etc. These were his ‘personal’ experiences which in a way are as personal as those of the deaf person. Do you agree with the reasoning? ---------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And one of these conditions is the ‘falling away’ of the previous citta and its accompanying cetasikas. Now even the previous citta must have fallen away, so how can we speak about ‘other realities’, those that never arise associated with the one citta per moment, to count in? I am talking here, about rupas of the body that are conditioned by the three other factors, excepting citta. But even these, arise and fall away in an instant, nothing remains to be pointed to, except an imaginary ‘new’ rupa. So what are we really referring to? The above can be seen with reference to one’s own experience and so it must be the same with what we take for ‘other’ as well. Howard: Well, sukin, here you ARE speaking of others. I'm afraid I miss your point entirely. (I also have no reason to accept the packet perspective on consciousness. There are no gaps in the operation of consciousness, but the content of consciousness and its features (clarity, energy, etc) and concomitant operations are constantly changing.) S: Yes, it seems as though I was indeed talking about ‘others’ as being real in some sense. But what I was really trying to explain by way of the concept, is that even this body that we take for Sukin’s and Howard’s, the rupas that arise and fall away unassociated with citta, are also conditioned and momentary, hence never capable of being pointed to at as being that of a person or being. And this is the same with trees and mountains. ------------------------------------------------ Sukin: In fact more so, since I can’t experience your citta while there can be a moment of satipatthana to know the citta which has just fallen away ‘here’. When I communicate with you, I go by conventional reality without having to believe that there is more than just one moment of citta arising and falling away there, as it is here. Howard: Well, of COURSE we only infer the existence of others! But there is adequate evidence for me. What about you? S: Evidence? What kind of evidence and for what? If I happen to be reacting with aversion to my children’s making noise, does this prove that ‘I’ or ‘they’ exist in the ultimate sense? Or does it point to the realities like, sound and aversion? You seem to be starting with asserting the existence of ‘others’ and going on to take certain experiences as evidence of this. I on the other hand am saying that when there is any ‘seeing ‘of the moment, what is ever found are namas and rupas and none of this is evidence for the existence of ‘self’ or ‘other’. So instead of saying “of course we only infer the existence of othersâ€?, why not say “of course ‘others’ are only an inference. What truly exist are momentary namas and rupasâ€?? ================ Sukin: The conventional body moves, but this will ever be by force of one citta arising and falling away at a time. Howard: The body moving is exactly the occurrence of many rupic events over a period of time. It is a matter of material phenomena that may or may not be noticed. (And again, this individual-citta notion is a theoretical construct that, upon analysis, presents grave problems. And though we are certainly aware of consciousness, we've never discerned "a citta" - at least I have not. Rather than contemplate such theoretical constructs, I prefer to attend to what is actually present. S: The fact that cittas are momentary arising one at a time is not meant to encourage the ‘seeing’ of those moments. Nor is it meant to condition doubt when in the beginning satipatthana arises to experience nimita or many similar dhammas arising in close proximity. What this teaching does on the other hand, is prevent the tendency to conflate whereby not only does this then make it hard to experience reality for what it is, especially when “attending to what is actually presentâ€?, but also to come up with theories of our own to explain conventional actions. =============== Sukin: The rupas are not waiting to be commanded by citta, since none of these stay longer than a moment. The five khandhas arise together and fall away together and nothing is there apart of this to be seen as a ‘whole’ or as ‘interrelated’. The interrelatedness is between the realities that constitute the khandhas which are anicca, dukkha and anatta. Anything else brought into the picture must be due to wrong view, I think. Howard: Again, I miss your point. I am bringing nothing extraneous into any picture. I am simply denying solipsism. S: I was trying to address your often made remark about Khandhas to be meaning ‘dhammas arising in relation’. I get the impression each time that you mean this to be more than just an instant of the five khandhas arising and falling away. Though I’ll admit that it may sound like it some times, however I don’t think that you should fear solipsism (just looked up the dictionary ;-)), since after all in asserting the existence of “dhammas and their paccayaâ€? we are in effect denying “selfâ€? and its world aren’t we? ;-) In any case, developed Right View conditions more kusala such as metta, mudita and karuna to arise and this is far more effective than any chance kusala motivation based on the belief in the existence of ‘other people’, I think. Metta, Sukin #89803 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 5:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 9/4/2008 10:32:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: Hi, all DSG members, - A good news for everyone! I have found a Dhamma talk by Ajahn Sumedho that very effectively clarifies all kinds of issues we have discussed on self identification views (sakkhaya-ditthi), anatta, attaching and clinging, sankhara, the Four Noble Truths, thinkings, awareness (satisampajanna) here and now, letting go, and more. This Dhamma talk answers all the major questions I used to have about self, no self, not self, awareness and pa~n~na in the present moment. It is just like a huge blower that blows away all the dusts(=doubts) from my mind! Find out for yourself if this talk can also greatly benefit you. T08-08_A_Sumedho_Whats_so_Important.mp3 13879K Play Download I am not sure that the above link may or may not connect you to the source because this Yahoo! email facility may not allow it. In case it fails, please search the Web for this Ajahn Sumedho's talk. Yours truly, Tep ==================================== The link is incorrect. Use the link _http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/sumed.php_ (http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/sumed.php) to get to the site that gives a list of talks, and then click on the 4th one in the list (entitled "What's So Important"). With metta, Howard #89804 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 5:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] annata upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 9/4/2008 10:44:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: Hi Howard, I was having difficulty putting into words my thoughts, those arisen sporadically while reading your posts to Sarah and others. I still can’t pin down exactly what it is that I have in mind, so I’m still not sure if I can express myself better now, but will try. =============================== Sukin, I just saw this post of yours. I have to go to sleep now, because I'm rising early tomorrow for a three-day vacation. I'll get to your post on Monday and reply then or soon after. With metta, Howard #89805 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:30 pm Subject: Five x Five! bhikkhu0 Friends: Five x Five Crucial Core Buddhist Categories: There are five Mental Abilities : 1: Faith , 2: Energy , 3: Awareness , 4: Concentration & 5: Understanding . There are five Rules of Training : 1: No Killing, 2: No Stealing, 3: No Lying, 4: No Sexual Abuse, & 5: No Alcohol or Drugs. There are five Clusters of Clinging to: 1: Form, 2: Feeling, 3: Perception, 4: Construction & 5: Consciousness. There are five Mental Hindrances: 1: Sense-Desire, 2: Anger,3: Lethargy & Laziness, 4: Regret & Restlessness, & 5: Doubt & Uncertainty. There are five Destinations right after Death: Hell, Animal Womb, Hungry Ghost, Human Being or Deity. <...> Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 33 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... Five x Five! #89806 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 4, 2008 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities nilovg Hi Howard, No, I could not keep on thinking of poor Alex. So many cittas, so many objects. But what we take for Alex are citta, cetasika and rupa, arising and falling away all the time. I could not point to one citta; this is Alex, it has fallen away already. Meanwhile, have a lovely weekend, perhaps with your grandchildren? Nina. Op 4-sep-2008, om 23:03 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Gosh, Nina - for Alex's sake I do hope you keep on thinking of him! > You > know, there's a notion in mystical Judaism that every element of > creation > exists only for so long as G-d sustains it. You are making yourself > sound very > much like "you know who"! ;-)) #89807 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Antony (& Tep), Good to see you back in good form, Phil. I particularly liked your reply to Antony's question about the sutta: --- On Wed, 3/9/08, Phil wrote: > "And what, bhikkhus, is old kamma? > The eye is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by > volition, as something to be felt. > The ear is old kamma... > The mind is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by > volition, as something to be felt. > This is called old kamma. > And what, bhikkhus, is new kamma? > Whatever action one does now by body, speech or mind. > This is called new kamma." > From: SN35:146 > > Antony: Is old kamma another name for vipaka? P:>Not quite, I think. BB's commentarial note to the sutta doesn't contain any reference to vipaka. Instead there is this: "Spk: It is old kamma (puraanam idam kammam): THis body is not actually old kamma, but beccause it is produced by old kamma it is spoken of in terms of its condition. It should be seen as generated (abhisankhata) in that it is made by conditions; as fashioned by volition (abhisan~ncetayitta ) in that it is based on volition, rooted in volition; and as something to be felt (vedaniya) in that it is a basis for what is to be felt.." Then there is something referring to dependent origination. So it feels close to vipaka, doesn't it? Anything "produced by old kamma" feels close to vipaka. But why isn't vipaka mentionned? So I guess I am just echoing your question. .... S: I read the sutta as referring to rupas produced by kamma, such as eye-base. Then when it refers to 'mind' (mano) as being 'generated and fashioned by volition...' I take this as referring to vipaka cittas (and cetasikas). Just different terminology to describe the same dhammas in the rounds of vipaka, kusala/akusala and kamma. .... A:> I usually thought of vipaka as things like health, wealth, beauty, > long-life, lots of friends. What about vipaka as conditioning further > good kamma performed now? I suppose The vipaka of good mental health > and lots of Buddhist friends (the whole of the holy life) would be > major factors (I may have answered my own question!) P:>This is something that I think about a lot. If I understand correctly, vipaka is *not* the kind of thing you refer to above, but is rather whatever is arising through the sense doors, which must be more paramattha than the things you mention above. But I could be wrong. I know that the situation we are born into in life, and our basic health and beauty etc is said in the suttanta to be resultant of past behaviour, so you might be right. So again I am just echoing your uncertainty. .... S: I think that the references to 'basic health and beauty etc' are often used as a short-hand for pleasant bodily feeling and so on as a result of good kamma. Antony asks about such vipaka as conditioning further good kamma and I'd say it depends. It may just condition lots of attachment, as in deva realms, where it's hard to listen to the teachings on impermanence, for example. Thanks again for the good discussion and also Tep, for further helpful reminders. Metta, Sarah ======== #89808 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 1:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] BE AWARE OF THE RIGHT OBJECT AT THE RIGHT TIME (4) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, BE AWARE OF THE RIGHT OBJECT AT THE RIGHT TIME by Phra Dhammadharo continuing.. .. **** In what sense "Right Time"? In the threefold sense, now, any, or always. Firstly, "now": for now is the only moment that realities can appear and therefore it is the "Right time". It is no use waiting for later as later then is now. There is only ever now, but one forgets that now is now. Secondly, "any": in that anytime is the "Right time" for sati (so long as the conditions occur). There is no special time (except in the sense of "now") for sati to arise. Thirdly, "always": this is not to imply that there can be sati accompanying every moment of consciousness (citta), but rather in the sense that it should continually remain the "aim or goal" as above. It is the "aim or goal" in the beginning, the middle and the end - for worldlings and Ariyanas alike. ********** END ****** Metta, Sarah ======== #89809 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] I will die sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- On Wed, 3/9/08, Phil wrote: >I saw a fascinating art piece the other day in an exhibition of Chinese Avant-Garde art. I forget the artist's name (see link) but it consisted of 10 video screens with people facing the camera and saying in 10 different languages "I will die." Needless to say it reminded me of the third of the 5 daily recollections the Buddha urged all people to make (I am not beyond the nature of growing old, getting sick or dying, and all that I love will be taken away, and I am the owner of my kamma.) >I wonder if the artist did his work with the Buddha's teaching in mind. It certainly felt that way. .... S: It was quite a coincidence that you sent this around the time that I sat near the deserted Big Wave Bay (with no waves at all), listening to a surfer, artist friend talking about his recent experiences and reflections. Our friend, Simon, is a 40-year-old keen surfer and quite a well-known artist here. 3 or 4 months or so ago, he was told he had lymphoma (cancer) in the brain and the top specialists agreed he had just a few weeks to live at the most. His attitude, he told me, was that we were all going to die sometime and that he might as well have a positive attitude during his remaining time. He actually became a nicer person, he said, as he still underwent surgery, chemotherapy (plus other complimentary treatments, radical change of diet etc) and then 6 weeks of radiotherapy to his head. During the radiotherapy, it was like the most intense sunburn imaginable outside and inside his head and he couldn't eat or speak for this 6 weeks. He'd already lost his hair and became painfully thin, just 'feeding' from the intravenous drips. Amazingly he has survived and has been given a clean bill of health now. He's still thin, but his hair is growing back and he looks well. In fact, he'd just returned from a surfing trip to Australia and Hawaii. Apparently, his art-work has really taken off too as he lost all inhibitions with regard to it. He thought the kind of experience he'd been through was such a good wake-up call and such a positive influence on his life and character that it was one we should all experience. Actually, he's a very gentle and modest guy. I said I admired his courage and he said I should have seen him crying like a baby dozens of times. But is there any of the understanding that really counts in life? If there is no understanding of dhammas as dhammas, not self, are such experiences and character changes of any real value? You'd say 'yes', I'd say 'probably not'. There are going to be lifetime after lifetime of such experiences unless the eightfold path, beginning with right understanding, is developed, as I see it. Interesting anyway. Conditions for me to keep reflecting on Simon's story and how we all cling so much to this body, not wish to be sick, get old or die, forgetting about the momentary death that occurs all the time as the various elements rise and fall away. Metta, Sarah ======= #89810 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 4:24 am Subject: Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Regarding: T: "A good news for everyone! I have found a Dhamma talk by Ajahn Sumedho..." Scott: What do you think of the phrase 'being the knower'? This came up about one quarter of the way into the talk. How would you explain this? How do you see such a phrase in relation to sakkaaya-di.t.thi? Sincerely, Scott. #89811 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - I'm grabbing a few minutes while getting ready to leave on vacation. In a message dated 9/5/2008 1:55:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, No, I could not keep on thinking of poor Alex. So many cittas, so many objects. But what we take for Alex are citta, cetasika and rupa, arising and falling away all the time. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know, and I agree. But. actually, I think it's even more complicated than that: There is an ongoing, integrated, stream of interrelated namas and rupas WITHIN WHICH stream there is a repeated taking of the dhammas within that same stream, dhammas present and remembered, as "Alex". That stream, a dynamic aggregate, is "Alex". And that knowing is "Alex knowing Alex." There are other streams as well, ones we call "Nina" and "Howard," for example, and within each of these there is knowing of themselves, of each other, and also of "Alex". Streams interact. They are aware (more properly said: "They include acts of awareness") of themselves and of each other. Yes, it is all just namas and rupas, but in amazingly complex relation. And, BTW, I think the "stream" terminology is good and proper, and far more accurate than a "sequence" terminology which imposes gaps when there aren't any. --------------------------------------------------------- I could not point to one citta; this is Alex, it has fallen away already. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: One citta (a notion I take exception to - for there are no gaps in consciousness) is not Alex. There is a trans-temporal stream of mental and physical phenomena that is viewed as a unity called "Alex," and is(falsely) thought of as an individual phenomena with own-being. But the phenomena present in that stream at one single instant, namely consciousness, a specific object of that consciousness, and a variety of supportive mental factors and operations is not "Alex," any more than "the Ganges at this very zero-duration instant" with the particular flotsam and jetsam that happen to be present in it where and how they are now disposed is the Ganges. It is just a snapshot - an artificial stopping and "discretizing" of what is unstoppable. We may SAY "This is the Ganges," but it really is just a "Ganges moment." ------------------------------------------------------------- Meanwhile, have a lovely weekend, perhaps with your grandchildren? -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I wish it were with them! We're just going with good friends on an auto trip to a nearby state only 5 or 6 hours away, not across country from New York to Texas. Thanks much for the kind wishes, Nina. I hope your weekend is very pleasant also. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Nina. Op 4-sep-2008, om 23:03 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Gosh, Nina - for Alex's sake I do hope you keep on thinking of him! > You > know, there's a notion in mystical Judaism that every element of > creation > exists only for so long as G-d sustains it. You are making yourself > sound very > much like "you know who"! ;-)) =================================== With metta, Howard #89812 From: "connie" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 4:54 am Subject: re: Vism.XVII,298 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.700 (dsg #89800) (The round of three Keeps rolling on and on without a break.) The activities and becoming are the round of karma; ignorance, craving and grasping are the round of the vices; consciousness, name-and-form, sixfold sense, contact, feeling are the round of result. Thus with these three rounds the wheel of becoming, "the round of three ... keeps rolling on and on" turning repeatedly "without a break," because it does not cease so long as the wheel of corruptions is not cut off. #89813 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important dhammanusarin Hello Howard, - How is your peaceful vacation? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > >==================================== The link is incorrect. Use the link _http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/sumed.php_ (http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/sumed.php) to get to the site that gives a list of talks, and then click on the 4th one in the list (entitled "What's So Important"). With metta, Howard ........................ T: Thank you very much for your contribution, Howard. I checked the link and found that it worked. What is the most important thing do you find in this Dhamma talk? Can you summarize it using no more than three sentences? I think the most important idea of this talk is : Whenever one discerns with awareness what's going now, there is no involvement with extreme views or duality of the sakkayaditthi (personal identity): no sankhara. Hence there is no attachment as to what is importance in one's life, responsibilty, rightness or wrongness, and 'I must do this' or that. And that's liberation from suffering. Thanks. Tep === #89814 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 5:40 am Subject: Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important dhammanusarin Dear Scott, - I like your critical examination; it is great for penetration. > > Scott: What do you think of the phrase 'being the knower'? This came > up about one quarter of the way into the talk. How would you explain > this? How do you see such a phrase in relation to sakkaaya-di.t.thi? > I have a difficulty going into the MP3 file forward and backward, Scott. So could you please get the whole sentence for me? It will help me a lot. Thanks. It is not clear, without my seeing the whole sentence, to tell whether 'being the knower' means a self (atta) that knows, or consciousness with discernment & awareness in the here and now. Tep === #89815 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 5:46 am Subject: Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important scottduncan2 Dear Tep, T: "...I have a difficulty going into the MP3 file forward and backward, Scott. So could you please get the whole sentence for me? It will help..." Scott: Of course, I thought of this after. I'm off to 'diabetes school' now and so will transcribe the phrase tonight or tomorrow. Sincerely, Scott. #89816 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 5:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? dhammanusarin Hi Sarah (and Phil, Antony), - In your reply to Phil you wrote : >S: Antony asks about such vipaka as conditioning further good kamma and I'd say it depends. It may just condition lots of attachment, as in deva realms, where it's hard to listen to the teachings on impermanence, for example. T: Does "it depends" mean: given certain supporting conditions a vipaka can cause a new kamma to arise? Please give a few examples. Thanks. Tep === #89817 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] I will die nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you for Simon's story. But now he may have an opportunity to listen to some Dhamma explanations by you, he still has a chance, and may not have another chance, except when you meet him at the Bay. Momentary death: I am so impressed by the Visuddhimagga texts on this subject: like rebirth-consciousness following upon dying consciousness; rebirth-consciousness does not come from anywhere nor does it go anywhere and this is true for each citta. I liked the last posting of BE AWARE OF THE RIGHT OBJECT AT THE RIGHT TIME, best. This is good: Nina. Op 5-sep-2008, om 11:47 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Conditions for me to keep reflecting on Simon's story and how we > all cling so much to this body, not wish to be sick, get old or > die, forgetting about the momentary death that occurs all the time > as the various elements rise and fall away. #89818 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important nilovg Dear Scott, sorry to hear about Luke. You mention a school, so that means something can be done. Best wishes, Nina. Op 5-sep-2008, om 14:46 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > I'm off to 'diabetes > school' now #89820 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 9:12 am Subject: Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important1 truth_aerator Hi Scott, Tep, and all >"Scott" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Regarding: > > T: "A good news for everyone! I have found a Dhamma talk by Ajahn > Sumedho..." > > Scott: What do you think of the phrase 'being the knower'? This came > up about one quarter of the way into the talk. How would you explain > this? How do you see such a phrase in relation to sakkaaya-di.t.thi? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > The vinnana-sota, stream of consciousness (vinnana). It is mentioned in Digha Nikaya. Scott, the problem is in *your* head trying to reify figures of speech and slander venerable Monks. Best wishes, Alex #89821 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 9:41 am Subject: Bad and good desire. Buddha *NEVER* taught Jain non-doing truth_aerator Hello all. Sometimes people don't check the suttas and the exact pali terms used. The cause of suffering (2nd NT) isn't simply desire. It is tanha, craving. In the dependent origination it is NOT desire (or motivation) it is TANHA paccaya upadana and so on. Buddha has often used other words for Chanda (desire), Viriya (energy), Aditthana (decision, resolution, self-determination, will), Atappa (ardent). The teachings of "don't do anything as it is sakkayaditthi" is not correct based on the suttas which frequently talk about monks, even Arian Monks such as Ven. Sariputta or MahaMoggallana having developed 4 bases of power. There IS a big difference between selfish atta- tanha and wholesome motivation. Without motivation/intention nothing will get done except to prolong one's stay in samsara. See SN16.2 sutta below, and the suttas on iddhipadda and 4 efforts. A thing is that there was a teaching that every action is Kamma and as such leads to Kamma-Vipaka and thus in order to liberate from Samsara one needs to stop ALL doing. Needless to say that the spiritual peak was reached with total non-doing, even abstaining from eating, until one would starve to death in passivity... This I understand is the teaching of... Jainism. ============== Sariputta: It is said, friend, that a person without ardor, without concern, is incapable of self-awakening, incapable of Unbinding, incapable of attaining the unexcelled security from bondage. Now, how is a person without ardor, without concern, incapable of self- awakening, incapable of Unbinding, incapable of attaining the unexcelled security from bondage? And how is a person ardent & concerned capable of self-awakening, capable of Unbinding, capable of attaining the unexcelled security from bondage? Maha Kassapa: There is the case where a monk thinks, 'The arising of unarisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' yet he arouses no ardor. 'The non-abandoning of arisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' yet he arouses no ardor. 'The non-arising of unarisen skillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' yet he arouses no ardor. 'The ceasing of arisen skillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' yet he arouses no ardor. This is what it means to be a person without ardor. And how is one a person without concern? There is the case where a monk thinks, 'The arising of unarisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' yet he feels no concern. 'The non-abandoning of arisen evil, unskillful qualities... The non- arising of unarisen skillful qualities... The ceasing of arisen skillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' yet he feels no concern. This is what it means to be a person without concern. This is how a person without ardor, without concern, is incapable of self-awakening, incapable of Unbinding, incapable of attaining the unexcelled security from bondage. And how is a person ardent? There is the case where a monk thinks, 'The arising of unarisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he arouses ardor. 'The non- abandoning of arisen evil, unskillful qualities... The non-arising of unarisen skillful qualities... The ceasing of arisen skillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he arouses ardor. This is what it means to be ardent. And how is a person concerned? There is the case where a monk thinks, 'The arising of unarisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he feels concern. 'The non- abandoning of arisen evil, unskillful qualities... The non-arising of unarisen skillful qualities... The ceasing of arisen skillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial,' and he feels concern. This is what it means to be concerned. This is how a person ardent & concerned is capable of self-awakening, capable of Unbinding, capable of attaining the unexcelled security from bondage. — SN 16.2 ==================================================================== Monks, whoever neglects these four bases of power neglects the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Whoever undertakes these four bases of power undertakes the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Which four? There is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. Whoever neglects these four bases of power neglects the noble path going to the right ending of stress. Whoever undertakes these four bases of power undertakes the noble path going to the right ending of stress. — SN 51.2 ==================================== Best wishes, Alex #89822 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? nilovg Dear Tep, Op 5-sep-2008, om 14:50 heeft Tep het volgende geschreven: > Does "it depends" mean: given certain supporting conditions a vipaka > can cause a new kamma to arise? Please give a few examples. ------- N: Bodily pain can condition kusala kamma by way of natural strong dependence-condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya. Suffering and sickness can be a reminder to perform kusala, life is so short. Nina. #89823 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 11:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad and good desire. Buddha *NEVER* taught Jain non-doing nilovg Dear Alex, Op 5-sep-2008, om 18:41 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > The cause of suffering (2nd NT) isn't simply desire. It is > tanha, craving. In the dependent origination it is NOT desire (or > motivation) it is TANHA paccaya upadana and so on. ------- N: It is lobha cetasika but this has many aspects and intensities. In the following sections of Visuddhimagga ChXVII, the links of D.O. will be seen under the aspects of the four noble Truths and then there are still other aspects to the second Truth. Nina. #89824 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 11:51 am Subject: Re: Bad and good desire. Buddha *NEVER* taught Jain non-doing dhammanusarin Hi Alex, - Thank you for the two powerful sutta quotes. Unfortunately, sutta disbelievers do not read them. > Alex: > > Sometimes people don't check the suttas and the exact pali terms > used. The cause of suffering (2nd NT) isn't simply desire. It is > tanha, craving. In the dependent origination it is NOT desire (or > motivation) it is TANHA paccaya upadana and so on. > > Buddha has often used other words for Chanda (desire), Viriya > (energy), Aditthana (decision, resolution, self-determination, will), Atappa (ardent). > > The teachings of "don't do anything as it is sakkayaditthi" is not > correct based on the suttas which frequently talk about monks, even > Arian Monks such as Ven. Sariputta or MahaMoggallana having developed 4 bases of power. There IS a big difference between selfish atta-tanha and wholesome motivation. Without motivation/intention nothing will get done except to prolong one's stay in samsara. See SN16.2 sutta below, and the suttas on iddhipadda and 4 efforts. > > A thing is that there was a teaching that every action is Kamma and > as such leads to Kamma-Vipaka and thus in order to liberate from > Samsara one needs to stop ALL doing. Needless to say that the > spiritual peak was reached with total non-doing, even abstaining from eating, until one would starve to death in passivity... This I > understand is the teaching of... Jainism. > T: The arahant's message in SN 16.2, that affirms ardor(atapi) and concern(ottappa) as two dhammas for self-awakening and Unbinding, is very strong; he left no room for any doubt or misinterpretation even in a non-intelligent person. However, one blunt misinterpretation I often seen is that a practitioner's ardor and his concern ['the arising of unarisen evil, unskillful qualities would lead to what is unbeneficial'] indicate a 'self' who 'wants to do something', and that is due to craving and desire in one who does not understand the paramattha dhammas. The disbeliever then jumps to the wrong conclusion that the earnest practitioner will only end up with miccha-ditthi, miccha-vayama, and akusala citta. But the real loser is not the earnest practitioner with ardor and concern. It is the opposite: the disbeliever in the Arhant's well- spoken words will end up doing nothing when mental defilements arise. Because of doing nothing s/he will thus be overwhelmed with akusala of various kinds all the time. Sufferings are the unmistakable outcome for such a person. Tep === #89825 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bad and good desire. Buddha *NEVER* taught Jain non-doing truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, > A: > > The cause of suffering (2nd NT) isn't simply desire. It is > > tanha, craving. In the dependent origination it is NOT desire (or > > motivation) it is TANHA paccaya upadana and so on. > ------- > N: It is lobha cetasika but this has many aspects and intensities. >In the following sections of Visuddhimagga ChXVII, the links of D.O. >will be seen under the aspects of the four noble Truths and then > there are still other aspects to the second Truth. Nina. I do think that we need to pay attention to the precise words in this case. The Buddha has used Tanha. Not only in the 4NT but in Dependent Origination formula as well. I believe, based on the suttas, that there IS a difference between Tanha VS chanda,viriya, aditthana, adhimokkho. Iddhipada samyutta is a great one. For example developped iddhipada can lead all the way to Arhatship http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.020.than.html "These four bases of power, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit & great benefit. ============================= In another sutta we have: "Whatever desire he [Arhat] first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular desire is allayed. Whatever persistence he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular persistence is allayed. Whatever intent he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular intent is allayed. Whatever discrimination he first had for the attainment of arahantship, on attaining arahantship that particular discrimination is allayed. So what do you think, brahman? Is this an endless path, or one with an end?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn51/sn51.015.than.html So I see that the Bhikkhuni sutta isn't one and only sutta where Ananda stressed the importance of *proper desire for the goal*, Arhatship. Best wishes, Alex #89826 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 2:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? dhammanusarin Hi Nina (Sarah), - Sarah is possibly busy, I guess. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > Op 5-sep-2008, om 14:50 heeft Tep het volgende geschreven: > > > Does "it depends" mean: given certain supporting conditions a vipaka > > can cause a new kamma to arise? Please give a few examples. > ------- > N: Bodily pain can condition kusala kamma by way of natural strong > dependence-condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya. Suffering and sickness > can be a reminder to perform kusala, life is so short. > Nina. T: I only learn that cetana (volition) conditions kamma, Nina. Bodily pain is not a volition; so why can it condition kusala kamma? Suffering and sickness do not cause kusala action; volition to develop kusala is the condition for kusala kamma to arise, I think. If a vipaka could condition a new kamma to arise, and a vipaka of the new kamma arose as the consequence, then that would become a perpetual cycle. There would be no cessation of kamma. Therefore, a vipaka does not condition another kamma; only volition does. That is my understanding. The Buddha explained, "When, monks, by ceasing actions of body, speech and mind, one touches liberation, this, monks, is called 'the ceasing of kamma.' " He did not say that liberation meant ceasing of vipaka. But, of course, I could be wrong. Tep === #89827 From: "colette" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 8:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ... 'The Four Paramattha Dhammas' Response Part I ksheri3 Good Morning Tep, So, how did we come to this definitive conclusion that Sukin is the only female and that colette is the only male? Speaking as an OPERATIVE OCCULTIST aka magikian, and an ACTIVIST I'll venture into your playing field and ask: Whatever possessed you to say such things? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > > Hello Colette, - > > I admit that your sense of humor can be entertaining sometimes. > > >C: Look, I accept everybody up-front and always give them more than > enough opportunity to vindicate their position and actions but one > thing I actually believe that you are DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY > trying to avoid is GENDER. > > >DEPROGRAMMING: > > >First ya gotta admit that there's a difference between the thought > processes of the male and the female. > > T: Yes, there is. In regard to thought processes, Colette is a male > and Sukin is a female. :-) > > >C: Secondly you're gonna have to start digging for how these > differences occured. > > <....> > > T: It is easy to see; no digging at all. colette: How so? I do recall most recently, a year or two ago, when I was drinking in an alley here in Chicago and this drunkard calling himself Shayamuni as well as designating himself as "enlightened" and a "Buddha" was speaking to me about the deceptions that the Law Enforcement Agencies use that caused me to apply the Buddhist doctrines I was learning telling him that "all is illusion". This leads me to the question: if Buddhism is correct and all is illusion, that how is that there is no digging for answers since the answers seem as plain as the brown nose on your face, I mean, as you put it, "...easy to see;"? ----------------------------------------- > > > >Tep: First thing first. Please tell me frankly what your > motivation is. > > >colette: Tep, that is such a losers gambit since that same sentence > can and question can be reflected back at you through the "mirror of > the mind". Why are you in this discussion group? <....> > > T: Easy to answer, Colette. I am here to discuss the Dhamma with only > one motivation : to learn something useful. If I see that the topic > is not useful, then I will not discuss it. > colette: mmmy, we are full of it this morning, aren't we? What is this thing called "use"? Is it "using" something to get something other or some other thing? Does your concept of "use" as in "using" have anything to do with tools? <...> ------------------------------------ Yes, lets move on and give other people a chance: > More questions: > Why do many members never discuss anything? colette: INDEED, why is that? <...> -------------------------------------------- > Why did 'those discussants' always discuss several things that they > should not have discussed? > colette: ahhhhhh, I luv it, as Steven Segal once said: "This, I'm trained for". Who are "'those discussants'" you speak of? What were they discussing? How is it possible that they should not have been discussing things? Thanx for the reply. toodles, colette #89828 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 4:30 pm Subject: Re: Old kamma & present behavior? egberdina Hi Antony and Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > Just popping in with a question. > I found this sutta quote: > "And what, bhikkhus, is old kamma? > The eye is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by > volition, as something to be felt. > The ear is old kamma... > The mind is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by > volition, as something to be felt. > This is called old kamma. > And what, bhikkhus, is new kamma? > Whatever action one does now by body, speech or mind. > This is called new kamma." > From: SN35:146 > > Antony: Is old kamma another name for vipaka? > I usually thought of vipaka as things like health, wealth, beauty, > long-life, lots of friends. I think about it this way. Whatever situation one finds oneself in, that is old kamma. What about vipaka as conditioning further > good kamma performed now? There is nothing in whatever situation one finds oneself in that determines new kamma. I agree with Tep that if old kamma determined new kamma then new kamma wouldn't be new kamma, but old kamma. I suppose The vipaka of good mental health > and lots of Buddhist friends (the whole of the holy life) would be > major factors (I may have answered my own question!) > There is nothing in any situation that makes us do anything. There is no given good or bad, right or wrong response to any situation. But do something one must, and whatever it is one does, will determine in part what situations one will find themselves in down the track. > Thanks for listening / Antony. > Thanks for posting, Herman #89829 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 6:11 pm Subject: Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Regarding: T: "A good news for everyone! I have found a Dhamma talk by Ajahn Sumedho..." "...are you aware of it as condition in your mind, the sense that I'm responsible, or I should be, or I have to be, or I don't feel I'm ready to take on any responsibility yet. This is all the thinking process, the world we create, and we believe in it. So people who never question, never examine themselves, then they're always - they can easily get burnt out, fed up, had enough, and because you can carry this sense of responsibility with you back to your ku.tii, wake up in the morning and say 'oh god, another day of meetings and responsibilities', and that very thought is uh you know completely make you feel exhausted. I'm just talking from my own experience, waking up and oh I've got this and that and I just feel like I want to go back to bed, go to sleep because of that sense of I have to, I should, I'm responsible for. Or I've got to face something or deal with some delicate situation that I don't particularly want to be involved in. So in developing the path its using all these conditions for being **the knower of them as conditions**. Now this doesn't diminish them in the sense of they're not important or its not its not dualistic anymore when you're resting in awareness; but you have perspective and uh on the conditions and on the sense of responsibility and how you, you know, you attach to that. Because, you know, on one level on the ideal level you should be responsible for what you're doing. You're responsible for your life. You're responsible for your practise. You're responsible for your morality. You're responsible and you should be! And that's true! So this is the - this is the - And that's important! You see what I'm doing, this is a trap of the mind. Its when you don't know that, when you commit yourself to the ideals of monasticism or responsibility or spiritual development without seeing what you're doing. When its merely coming from sakkaaya-di.t.thi or the self-view, from grasping ideas about Buddhism and practise and yourself and how things should be. And this is where the, you know, the Four Noble Truths is such a brilliant way of checking out you know what the uh what you're doing. Because, at least speaking from my own experience, when I carry burdens of responsibility from the sakkaaya-di.t.thi level then I do, I feel you know burdened by my position...Personally I'd rather not have any responsibility. That's personal, that's the sakkaaya-di.t.thi side of me. But knowing of that, knowing sakkaaya-di.t.thi as that - its anicca, dukkha, anatta. Now what I've found out over these years is that - by reflecting in this way, I've uh - you know, this is the limitation of language - when you let go, uh of sankhaara, when you know sankhaara as sankhaara, no matter if the sankhaara is important, unimportant, should and what's right and true, and what shouldn't and all the rest. When you've seen through the whole illusion of the world that you create for yourself, and you let go of it - uh, just try to imagine what its like not to be attached to anything...you can't imagine it..." Scott: Hopefully that gives you enough of the context to comment on. Sincerely, Scott. #89830 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 6:21 pm Subject: Re: ... 'The Four Paramattha Dhammas' Response Part I dhammanusarin Good evening Colette, - How do you like this discussion group? .............. >C: Whatever possessed you to say such things? T: Imho-tep. :-) >C: This leads me to the question: if Buddhism is correct and all is illusion, that how is that there is no digging for answers since the answers seem as plain as the brown nose on your face, I mean, as you put it, "...easy to see;"? T: The Buddha has often been misquoted, Colette. According to the wise DSG Abhidhammikas, who claim the Buddha taught 'there is nothing (illusion included) except ultimate realities', there is no doing, no practice, no effort, no digging. Do you dig it now? >C: What is this thing called "use"? Is it "using" something to get something other or some other thing? Does your concept of "use" as in "using" have anything to do with tools? <...> T: You use one "thing" to get a certain thing done; then you use another thing to help you use other things. Tools are one kind of things that are used to get things done. > > T: Why do many members never discuss anything? >Colette: INDEED, why is that? <...> T: Ask them, if you can persuade them to talk. >C: Who are "'those discussants'" you speak of? What were they discussing? How is it possible that they should not have been discussing things? T: DSG Abhidhammaikas. Ask them, 'cause I dunno either. ;-) > C: > Thanx for the reply. > > toodles, > colette > You're welcome. Enough of that silly talk for at least a month. Tep === #89831 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 7:13 pm Subject: Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important dhammanusarin Hi, Scott (and all) -- You kindly wrote back: >Dear Tep, >Regarding: >T: "A good news for everyone! I have found a Dhamma talk by Ajahn Sumedho..." [Ajahn Sumedho:] "...are you aware of it as condition in your mind, the sense that I'm responsible, or I should be, or I have to be, or I don't feel I'm ready to take on any responsibility yet. This is all the thinking process, the world we create, and we believe in it. So people who never question, never examine themselves, then they're always - they can easily get burnt out, fed up, had enough, and because you can carry this sense of responsibility with you back to your ku.tii, wake up in the morning and say 'oh god, another day of meetings and responsibilities', and that very thought is uh you know completely make you feel exhausted. I'm just talking from my own experience, waking up and oh I've got this and that and I just feel like I want to go back to bed, go to sleep because of that sense of I have to, I should, I'm responsible for. Or I've got to face something or deal with some delicate situation that I don't particularly want to be involved in. So in developing the path its using all these conditions for being **the knower of them as conditions**. Now this doesn't diminish them in the sense of they're not important or its not its not dualistic anymore when you're resting in awareness; but you have perspective and uh on the conditions and on the sense of responsibility and how you, you know, you attach to that. Because, you know, on one level on the ideal level you should be responsible for what you're doing. You're responsible for your life. You're responsible for your practise. You're responsible for your morality. You're responsible and you should be! And that's true! So this is the - this is the - And that's important! You see what I'm doing, this is a trap of the mind. Its when you don't know that, when you commit yourself to the ideals of monasticism or responsibility or spiritual development without seeing what you're doing. When its merely coming from sakkaaya-di.t.thi or the self-view, from grasping ideas about Buddhism and practise and yourself and how things should be. And this is where the, you know, the Four Noble Truths is such a brilliant way of checking out you know what the uh what you're doing. Because, at least speaking from my own experience, when I carry burdens of responsibility from the sakkaaya-di.t.thi level then I do, I feel you know burdened by my position...Personally I'd rather not have any responsibility. That's personal, that's the sakkaaya- di.t.thi side of me. But knowing of that, knowing sakkaaya-di.t.thi as that - its anicca, dukkha, anatta. Now what I've found out over these years is that - by reflecting in this way, I've uh - you know, this is the limitation of language - when you let go, uh of sankhaara, when you know sankhaara as sankhaara, no matter if the sankhaara is important, unimportant, should and what's right and true, and what shouldn't and all the rest. When you've seen through the whole illusion of the world that you create for yourself, and you let go of it - uh, just try to imagine what its like not to be attached to anything...you can't imagine it..." >Scott: Hopefully that gives you enough of the context to comment on. >Sincerely, >Scott. ====================== T: Whoa !! Great homework, Scott. You far exceeded my expectation. I am truly thankful. Let's back up a little. You asked earlier: > >Scott: What do you think of the phrase 'being the knower'? This came up about one quarter of the way into the talk. How would you explain this? How do you see such a phrase in relation to sakkaaya- di.t.thi? T: Of course, I am delighted to explain his words in relation to sakkaaya-di.t.thi (personality views, self identification views). But I do not claim that he may approve my explanation. Now let me focus on the part of his talk around "being the knower of them as conditions". Please note that I replace 'its' by it's, because it makes a better sense to me. Ajahn Sumedho: Or I've got to face something or deal with some delicate situation that I don't particularly want to be involved in. So in developing the path it's using all these conditions for being the knower of them as conditions. Now this doesn't diminish them in the sense of they're not important or it's not .. it's not dualistic anymore when you're resting in awareness; but you have perspective and uh on the conditions and on the sense of responsibility and how you, you know, you attach to that. T: He was talking about awareness here and now, understanding, and letting go of attachment. In developing the path(magga) the awareness of those conditions is the knower, and this awareness/knower of the (real time) conditions is essential for path development. When one knows, when one is resting in awareness and in perspective of all the conditions here and now, including the sense of responsibility to which one is attached to, then the duality of self views (sakkayaditthi) falls apart ! That to me is the crux of his talk, Scott. Thank you for the kusala effort. Tep === #89832 From: "Tep" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 7:31 pm Subject: Re: Old kamma & present behavior? dhammanusarin Hello Herman (Scott, Sarah, and Antony :-), What you wrote reminded me of Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma talk that is being discussed in another thread. >Herman: There is nothing in any situation that makes us do anything. There is no given good or bad, right or wrong response to any situation. But do something one must, and whatever it is one does, will determine in part what situations one will find themselves in down the track. T: Ajahn Sumedho's talk is about that kind of duality too. The "do something one must" indicates one's responsibility that is effortlessly let go when awareness and discernment arise here and now. It is a profound Dhamma talk with no emphasis on the Self Demon. He even mentioned ultimate reality. Tep === #89833 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 8:25 pm Subject: Re: Old kamma & present behavior? egberdina Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > Hello Herman (Scott, Sarah, and Antony :-), > > What you wrote reminded me of Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma talk that is being > discussed in another thread. > Thank you for referring me to the Ajahn Sumedho thread. > >Herman: There is nothing in any situation that makes us do anything. > There is no given good or bad, right or wrong response to any > situation. But do something one must, and whatever it is one does, will > determine in part what situations one will find themselves in down the > track. > > T: Ajahn Sumedho's talk is about that kind of duality too. The "do > something one must" indicates one's responsibility that is effortlessly > let go when awareness and discernment arise here and now. It is a > profound Dhamma talk with no emphasis on the Self Demon. He even > mentioned ultimate reality. > I see nothing problematical in the piece that Scott quoted. I actually think it is very good, and a refreshing change from the flight into determinism that so many pursue as a false refuge from dukkha. Cheers Herman #89834 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Sep 5, 2008 6:42 pm Subject: Sabbe Sattaa Bhavantu Sukhi Tatthaa! bhikkhu0 Daily Words of the Buddha for 6 September 2008 The Blessed Buddha once said: Sabbe sattÄ?, sabbe pÄ?nÄ?, sabbe bhÅ«tÄ? ca kevalÄ?, sabbe bhadrÄ?ni passantu. MÄ? kañci pÄ?pamÄ?gamÄ?. Worthy, wise and virtuous: May all creatures, all living things, all beings one and all, experience good fortune only. May they not fall into harm. Anguttara NikÄ?ya IV 67 Sabbe Sattaa Bhavantu Sukhi Tatthaa! May all beings become happy thus… Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ... #89835 From: "rinzeee" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 1:35 am Subject: Re: Question regarding "Conceptual" realities rinzeee Dear Alex, Nina and Friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > To Sarah, Jon, Sukinder, Scott and DSG'ers >Do the "conceptual" realities come out from the "ultimate" realities? yes or no. Through Perversions of ultimate realities, conceptual "realities" "come out". There are 3 types of perversions that a Worldling is subjected to, (1) Perverted perceptions, (2) Perverted consciousness and (3) Perverted view, (This is mine, This I am, This is myself). >What distinguishes conceptual from ultimate reality? Perceptions as noted above. In an ultimate sense there are 4 categories (Abhidhamma), (1) Consciousness, (2) Mental states (3) Matter and (4) Nibbana. Lord Buddha says in Chabbisodhana Sutta MN 112: "Friends, there are these six elements rightly proclaimed by the Blessed One who knows and sees, accomplished and fully enlightened. What six? They are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, the air element, the space element and the consciousness element." Note here that, apart from Nibbana, in the above grouping of 4, Consciousness and Matter is covered here. What is remaining are the Mental States, which distinguishes conceptual, from ultimate reality. And what does Mental States stem from? Distorted Perception. Once this distortion (this is mine, I am, myself) is seen (by Wisdom), the distortion is removed, "one" (the 5 aggregates) is in direct contact with "reality"! IMO, this would be how an Arahant would "abide" in their moments of "seclusion" (enjoying? the fruits of their labour, Fruition Consciousness!). To an Arahant, what Lord Buddha said in Chabbisodhana Sutta, given above, is directly related. To them, the Consciousness is Anidassana, non-indicative, there is just the residual Matter and Non-indicative Consciousness. So, while there is consciousness, in an Arahant, there is no apparent "self" whom this consciousness designates. So, while He lives, His consciousness is said to be "ceased", what is, is the non- indicative consciousness, which will "snuff out" due to lack of "fuel" from Kamma, which His actions are not! But while He lives, He would use His Mind. "Mano pubbhanga ma Dhamma, Mano setta, Mano maya". Mind precedes all Dhammas, mind is their chief, mind made are they – Dhammapada. He uses it without distorted perception, for His food, clothing, shelter and medicine (the 4 basic requisites) amongst other things. "The Blessed One, friend, possesses a mind; the Blessed One cognizes images with the mind; desire & lust for the Blessed One there is not; the Blessed One is wholly freed in heart." Salayatana Samyukkta 18.5 But a Worldling uses his mind, with perverted perception. He sees things as, mine, I am and myself. Hence his perceptions and feelings (cittasankara) of "Ultimate Reality", gives rise to concepts in his mind, the Mental States, constituting Kamma, that fuels his consciousness, in his journey through Sansara. >How long does conceptual reality last (in relation to ultimate reality)? According to Abhidhamma, a thought-moment is the smallest unit considered, as a moment of consciousness. 17 such thought-moments constitute (the "life-span" of) Matter. Generally, objects are presented to (1) 5 sense doors, (2) Mind- door. "Objects" presented to the eye-door (say) is, (1) Very great (last till the retentive thought moment (17 in all)), (2) Great, (3) Slight, (4) Very Slight (just a vibration of Bhavanga, (3 in all)). "Object" presented to the mind-door is, (1) Clear (there is retention, (I think 7 thought moments)), (2) Obscure (there is no retention (I think 3, just the vibrations)). Based on the above, and the fact that billions of thought-moments arise and fall, within a "twinkling of an eye"! I think, an answer can be worked out, to the question above, if it matters. May we all see the Dhamma Rinze #89836 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 2:13 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 10, no 1. nilovg Dear friends. I read in “History of Buddhism in Ceylon”, by Walpola Rahula, that in olden times pilgrimages in Sri Lanka were favored by the monks for various reasons. One of the benefits was traveling with a teacher so that one could discuss topics of the Dhamma. During our pilgrimage it was also for us very beneficial to discuss the Dhamma in a personal way and learn to apply it in the situation of daily life. In theory we know what is kusala and what akusala, but in our daily life we forget to apply what we have learnt. The Buddha taught us to be patient. This may seem simple to us, but we are impatient when things are not as we would like them to be and when people do not behave as we would expect them to. Patience was often a topic of our conversations. The “Exhortation to the Påtimokkha” (Ovåda-påtimokkha) [1], recited by the monks, starts with patience: “Forbearing patience is the highest austerity...” (Khantíparama.m tapo títikkhå....) We may talk at length about patience without realizing when there is patience and when there is not. When one is on a journey, things do not always happen the way one has planned. We had expected to climb the “Siripada” (Adam’s Peak), a place the Buddha had visited. We had to cancel this trip twice because the time was not convenient and the rainy season had started. We always think that we can control situations by planning, but whether a plan comes true or not depends on conditions. We cannot force conditions by insisting on our own plans. In such situations we have to cultivate patience. If we understand that there are only nåma and rúpa, whether we are on a mountain or in the city, it helps to be patient. We should be patient in our speech. Even when we speak about the Dhamma kusala citta does not arise all the time. We may speak with impatience, at the wrong time. We may speak with attachment to our own words, and at such moments there is no mettå, no patience. We read in the ‘Discourse on the Parable of the Saw” (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 21) that the Buddha spoke about different ways of speech: “... Monks, when speaking to others you might speak at a right time or at a wrong time; monks, when speaking to others you might speak according to fact or not according to fact; monks, when speaking to others you might speak gently or harshly; monks, when speaking to others you might speak about what is connected with the goal or about what is not connected with the goal; monks, when speaking to others you might speak with minds of friendliness or full of hatred. Herein, monks, you should train yourselves thus: ‘Neither will our minds become perverted nor will we utter an evil speech, but kindly and compassionate will we dwell, with a mind of friendliness, void of hatred; and we will dwell having suffused that person with a mind of friendliness; and beginning with him, we will dwell, having suffused the whole world with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, widespread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.’ This is how you must train yourselves, monks.” -------- 1. The Påtimokkha is the Code of Discipline for monks. ******* Nina. #89837 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 3:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali term for wrong view about kamma etc? - 2 jonoabb Hi Phil > Through more wholesome behaviour, > we (so to speak) improve our hopes for a favourable destination > after death. In the hell and animal realms, there are no > possibilities to develop understanding. Improving our hopes for a > favrouable destination after death is rarely talked about here, or > if it is there is often talk of it representing clinging to self etc > but it is a very, very central point of Anguttara Nikaya and I'm > sure the other Nikayas. In the Buddha's day, I have read, the > principle aim of householders was to do merit in order for a > favourable rebirth. I find that that is a reasonable approach to the > Dhamma for myself as well. Interesting the references in the texts to the Buddha's layfollowers doing merit and the matter of a favourable rebirth. In the Buddha's time, those who perceived the possibility of attaining enlightenment in that lifetime tended to join the order. So those who remained householders assumed further rebirths for themselves. At the same time, however, they appreciated the value of kusala (of all kinds), not least of which was as supporting a favourable rebirth ("favourable" meaning a rebirth in which the teachings were again available). So we should keep in mind that it was not simply a matter of doing kusala in order to obtain rebirth in a pleasant realm (not that that's what you were suggesting). However, the aim of obtaining of a favourable rebirth by the development of kusala other than (i.e., less than) satipatthana has 2 shortcomings. The first is that such kusala does not necessarily support rebirth in a realm where the teachings of a Buddha are available. That is more the outcome of an interest in that part of the teachings that is unique to a Buddha, i.e., satipatthana/vipassana). The second is that it is not a sustainable strategy over the longer terms because no matter how much kusala of that kind is developed, including to high level of jhana, the accumulated akusala will sooner or later assert itself and condition actions resulting in rebirth in the lower planes. So an interest in satipatthana, at whatever level is appropriate to one's current developed understanding, is the best refuge! > p.s these two responses to your post turned into a kind of summing > up of "where I'm at" I guess..of more interest to myself than anyone > else... > Not at all. Interesting, and obviously going in a good direction. Keep it up!! Thanks for sharing. Jon PS Thanks for the 'get well'. The foot is making good progress, thanks to regular massage and acupuncture. #89838 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 3:49 am Subject: No Entrance to Anatta from the Ultimate Sense dhammanusarin Dear Herman, - The ending remark of your message #89833 states that determinism is a "false refuge from dukkha". > >T: Ajahn Sumedho's talk is about that kind of duality too. The "do something one must" indicates one's responsibility that is effortlessly let go when awareness and discernment arise here and now. It is a profound Dhamma talk with no emphasis on the Self Demon. He even mentioned ultimate reality. > > >Herman: I see nothing problematical in the piece that Scott quoted. I actually think it is very good, and a refreshing change from the flight into determinism that so many pursue as a false refuge from dukkha. ................................... T: Another "false refuge from dukkha" is the DSG-Abhidhamma key teaching that anatta is only seen through the door of ultimate reality. The first Entrance to Anatta, that the Buddha taught the disciples, always begins with observing impermanence (anicca) and suffering (dukkha) in the body and the khandhas, then by contemplating not-self (anatta) in whatever is suffering(dukkha). When the meditator begins to be disenchanted (nibbida) with the khandhas, s/he will not think of them as 'me' and 'mine'. Then and only then the anatta dhamma will arise according to Anatta-lakkhana Sutta. And emptiness will be ultimately seen. Tep === #89839 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 3:53 am Subject: 5 aggregates analyzing dukkha antony272b2 Dear Group, Is it right to say that the teaching on the five clinging aggregates were the Buddha's way of analyzing dukkha rather than his way of analyzing the self. Thanks / Antony. #89840 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 4:02 am Subject: Re: 5 aggregates analyzing dukkha dhammanusarin Hi, Antony, - First thing first, Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > > Dear Group, > > Is it right to say that the teaching on the five clinging aggregates > were the Buddha's way of analyzing dukkha rather than his way of > analyzing the self. > > Thanks / Antony. > T: A "false refuge from dukkha" is the DSG-Abhidhamma key teaching that anatta is only seen through the door of ultimate reality. The first Entrance to Anatta, that the Buddha taught the disciples, always begins with observing impermanence (anicca) and suffering (dukkha) in the body and the khandhas, then by contemplating not-self (anatta) in whatever is suffering(dukkha). When the meditator begins to be disenchanted (nibbida) with the khandhas, s/he will not think of them as 'me' and 'mine'. Then and only then the anatta dhamma will arise according to Anatta-lakkhana Sutta. And emptiness will be ultimately seen. Tep === #89841 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Phil, Antony & all), --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Tep wrote: >>S: Antony asks about such vipaka as conditioning further good kamma and I'd say it depends. It may just condition lots of attachment, as in deva realms, where it's hard to listen to the teachings on impermanence, for example. .... >T: Does "it depends" mean: given certain supporting conditions a vipaka can cause a new kamma to arise? Please give a few examples. .... S: On account of the 'response' to that vipaka, depending on whether there is wise or unwise attention (yoniso or ayoniso manasikara), either kusala or akusala cittas will follow. The kusala cittas lead to further good kamma, while the akusala cittas lead to bad kamma. For example, as a result of past good kamma, there is pleasant bodily feeling. There is usually no wise attention and no awareness and such kusala vipaka is thus usually followed by attachment. The attachment accumulates and if it's strong enough may lead to akusala kamma. On the other-hand, for the wise, there may be wise attention and the development of understanding following the kusala vipaka. All that are experienced through the body-sense are various rupas, none of them a 'body', none of them belonging to anyone. With such understanding and detachment, there is kusala kamma. The extract Larry posted yesterday on the triple round is relevant here. It refers to the rounds of vipaka, defilements and kamma, spinning round and round until defilements are eradicated: >"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 298. 4.'With triple round it spins for ever' (par. 288): here formations and becoming are the 'round of kamma'. Ignorance, craving and clinging are the 'round of defilements'. Consciousness, mentality-materiality, the sixfold base, contact and feeling are the 'round of result'. So this Wheel of Becoming, having a triple round with these three rounds, should be understood to spin, revolving again and again, forever; for the conditions are not cut off as the round of defilements is not cut off. ************************ 298. tiva.t.tamanava.t.thita.m bhamatiiti ettha pana sa"nkhaarabhavaa kammava.t.ta.m,avijjaata.nhupaadaanaanikilesava.t.ta.m,vi~n~naa.nanaamaruupasa.l\ aayatanaphassavedanaa vipaakava.t.tanti imehi tiihiva.t.tehi tiva.t.tamida.m bhavacakka.m yaava kilesava.t.ta.m na upacchijjati,taava anupacchinnapaccayattaa anava.t.thita.m punappuna.m parivattanatobhamatiyevaati veditabba.m.< **** Metta, Sarah p.s yes, a little busy after returning home. Thx for your understanding. ======== #89842 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 5:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? Vipaka & New Kamma ... dhammanusarin Hi Sarah (Antony, Phil and Herman), - I appreciate the conversation initiative. >S: On account of the 'response' to that vipaka, depending on whether there is wise or unwise attention (yoniso or ayoniso manasikara), either kusala or akusala cittas will follow. The kusala cittas lead to further good kamma, while the akusala cittas lead to bad kamma. >For example, as a result of past good kamma, there is pleasant bodily feeling. There is usually no wise attention and no awareness and such kusala vipaka is thus usually followed by attachment. The attachment accumulates and if it's strong enough may lead to akusala kamma. >On the other-hand, for the wise, there may be wise attention and the development of understanding following the kusala vipaka. All that are experienced through the body-sense are various rupas, none of them a 'body', none of them belonging to anyone. With such understanding and detachment, there is kusala kamma. ........................................... T: The past good kamma is an old kamma. I agree that it forms a basis for feelings. But a new kamma is only conditioned by cetana, according to the Buddha. Please let me review the basics to make sure we are on the same level. 1. A kamma is conditioned by intention/volition(cetana). [AN 6.63: cetanaaha.m bhikkhave kamma.m vadaami "volition, monk, I declare to be kamma"] 2. A new kamma is the "action one performs now by body, speech and mind. [Sn 35.135; Walshe translated] 3. An old kamma is defined by eye, ear, nose tongue, body (touch), which are "brought into existence and created by volition, forming a basis for feeling" [Sn 35.135] 4. Ceasing of kamma is "ceasing actions of body, speech and mind" [Sn 35.135]. 5. Vipaka is kamma result such as rebirth, diseases, suffering. Question: Have you seen a sutta or abhidhamma book or a commentary that states that a vipaka of a kamma is a new kamma? ........................................... >S: The extract Larry posted yesterday on the triple round is relevant here. It refers to the rounds of vipaka, defilements and kamma, spinning round and round until defilements are eradicated: >"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 298. 4.'With triple round it spins for ever' (par. 288): here formations and becoming are the 'round of kamma'. Ignorance, craving and clinging are the 'round of defilements'. Consciousness, mentality- materiality, the sixfold base, contact and feeling are the 'round of result'. So this Wheel of Becoming, having a triple round with these three rounds, should be understood to spin, revolving again and again, forever; for the conditions are not cut off as the round of defilements is not cut off. ************************ T: Thanks to Larry. But the Wheel of Becoming is just an interpretation of the Dependent Origination. It does not state that a kamma-vipaka causes a new kamma. Tep === #89843 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 11:40 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Corner: DN 33 Twos (26-29) scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing from #89522 1.9(22-25) (cy: #89647): CSCD Siilavipatti ca di.t.thivipatti ca. Walshe DN 33.1.9(26) 'Attainment of morality and [right] view. (Siilavipatti ca di.t.thivipatti ca.) Olds [ 2.26 ] Complete Ethical Culture (siila) and Complete View (di.t.thi) RDs [ 2.26 ]Attainment in conduct and in [sound] belief. CSCD Siilasampadaa ca di.t.thisampadaa ca. Walshe [iii 214] DN 33.1.9(27) 'Failure of morality and view. (Siilasampadaa ca di.t.thisampadaa ca.) Olds [ 2.27 ] Incomplete Ethical Culture and Incomplete View RD's [ 2.27 ] Failure in conduct and in [sound] belief. CSCD Siilavisuddhi ca di.t.thivisuddhi ca. Walshe DN 33.1.9(28) 'Purity of morality and view. (Siilavisuddhi ca di.t.thivisuddhi ca.) Olds [ 2.28 ] Purified Ethical Culture and Purified View RD's [ 214 ] [ 2.28] Purity in conduct and in belief. CSCD Di.t.thivisuddhi kho pana yathaa di.t.thissa ca padhaana.m. Walshe DN 33.1.9(29) 'Purity of view and the effort to attain it. (Di.t.thivisuddhi kho pana yathaa di.t.thissa ca padhaana.m.) Olds [ 2.29 ] The Purity of one's View and the purity of the path taken in accordance with that view RD's [ 2.29 ] Purity in belief and the struggle according to the belief one holds. Sincerely, Scott/connie. #89844 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 12:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Corner: DN 33 Twos (26-29) nilovg Dear Scott, This should just be turned around: vipatti is failure and sampadaa is attainment. Nina. Op 6-sep-2008, om 20:40 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > CSCD > > Siilavipatti ca di.t.thivipatti ca. > > Walshe > DN 33.1.9(26) 'Attainment of morality and [right] view. (Siilavipatti > ca di.t.thivipatti ca.) #89845 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 3:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No Entrance to Anatta from the Ultimate Sense egberdina Hi Tep, 2008/9/6 Tep : > Dear Herman, - > > The ending remark of your message #89833 states that determinism is > a "false refuge from dukkha". > > ................................... > > T: Another "false refuge from dukkha" is the DSG-Abhidhamma key > teaching that anatta is only seen through the door of ultimate > reality. > Of course that enterprise is doomed to failure, and the lack of progress of it's proponents bears witness to that. The notion that ultimate reality (being) can be known is a basic misunderstanding, and that is why the pursuit of knowing ultimate reality is the dead end it is shown to be again and again. > The first Entrance to Anatta, that the Buddha taught the disciples, > always begins with observing impermanence (anicca) and suffering > (dukkha) in the body and the khandhas, then by contemplating not-self > (anatta) in whatever is suffering(dukkha). When the meditator begins > to be disenchanted (nibbida) with the khandhas, s/he will not think > of them as 'me' and 'mine'. Then and only then the anatta dhamma will > arise according to Anatta-lakkhana Sutta. And emptiness will be > ultimately seen. > Exactly so. The following from Ud 1:10 is as clear as daylight. "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." The known world is empty of self. Cheers Herman #89846 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 4:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior egberdina Hi Sarah and Tep and Phil and Antony and anyone else interested, 2008/9/6 sarah abbott : > Hi Tep, (Phil, Antony & all), > > For example, as a result of past good kamma, there is pleasant bodily feeling. There is usually no wise attention and no awareness and such kusala vipaka is thus usually followed by attachment. The attachment accumulates and if it's strong enough may lead to akusala kamma. > > On the other-hand, for the wise, there may be wise attention and the development of understanding following the kusala vipaka. All that are experienced through the body-sense are various rupas, none of them a 'body', none of them belonging to anyone. With such understanding and detachment, there is kusala kamma. > It seems to me that the accumulations that this explanation relies upon certainly must belong to someone. Else, how do disembodied accumulations lead to action, as you suggest? Cheers Herman #89847 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 4:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question regarding "Conceptual" realities egberdina Hi Rinzee, 2008/9/6 rinzeee : > Dear Alex, Nina and Friends, > > >> To Sarah, Jon, Sukinder, Scott and DSG'ers >>Do the "conceptual" realities come out from the "ultimate" > realities? yes or no. > > Through Perversions of ultimate realities, > conceptual "realities" "come out". There are 3 types of perversions > that a Worldling is subjected to, (1) Perverted perceptions, (2) > Perverted consciousness and (3) Perverted view, (This is mine, This > I am, This is myself). > >>What distinguishes conceptual from ultimate reality? > > Perceptions as noted above. > > In an ultimate sense there are 4 categories (Abhidhamma), (1) > Consciousness, (2) Mental states (3) Matter and (4) Nibbana. > Your thesis is that Mental States are the basis for perversions of ultimate reality. Unless I have missed it, and this is also Alex's question, you have not addressed where or how concepts or perversion creeps in as a not-ultimate reality. You have said that Mental States are ultimate reality, so I must assume that perversions are ultimate reality too. If I have misunderstood, could you please clarify? Cheers Herman #89848 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 4:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? Vipaka & New Kamma ... sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- On Sat, 6/9/08, Tep wrote: >S: On account of the 'response' to that vipaka, depending on whether there is wise or unwise attention (yoniso or ayoniso manasikara), either kusala or akusala cittas will follow. The kusala cittas lead to further good kamma, while the akusala cittas lead to bad kamma. >For example, as a result of past good kamma, there is pleasant bodily feeling. There is usually no wise attention and no awareness and such kusala vipaka is thus usually followed by attachment. The attachment accumulates and if it's strong enough may lead to akusala kamma. >On the other-hand, for the wise, there may be wise attention and the development of understanding following the kusala vipaka. All that are experienced through the body-sense are various rupas, none of them a 'body', none of them belonging to anyone. With such understanding and detachment, there is kusala kamma. ............ ......... ......... ......... .... >T: The past good kamma is an old kamma. I agree that it forms a basis for feelings. .... S: Remembering that vedana (feeling) arises with every citta, including kusala, akusala and vipaka cittas. .... >T: But a new kamma is only conditioned by cetana, according to the Buddha. .... S: Strictly speaking, the cetana is kamma. .... >T: Please let me review the basics to make sure we are on the same level. 1. A kamma is conditioned by intention/volition( cetana). [AN 6.63: cetanaaha.m bhikkhave kamma.m vadaami "volition, monk, I declare to be kamma"] 2. A new kamma is the "action one performs now by body, speech and mind. [Sn 35.135; Walshe translated] 3. An old kamma is defined by eye, ear, nose tongue, body (touch), which are "brought into existence and created by volition, forming a basis for feeling" [Sn 35.135] 4. Ceasing of kamma is "ceasing actions of body, speech and mind" [Sn 35.135]. 5. Vipaka is kamma result such as rebirth, diseases, suffering. .... S: Vipaka refers only to cittas (and cetasikas) conditioned by kamma. So rebirth consciousness (patisandhi citta) is vipaka. It is followed by other bhavanga cittas which have a different function. These are also vipaka cittas. Moments of seeing, hearing and body consciousness are aslo examples of vipaka cittas. .... Question: Have you seen a sutta or abhidhamma book or a commentary that states that a vipaka of a kamma is a new kamma? ... S: No, a vipaka citta can never be "a new kamma". However, it can be a condition directly and indirectly for "new kamma" as I tried to explain above. Indeed, without patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness), there'd be no "new kamma" at all. ............ ......... ......... ......... .... >S: The extract Larry posted yesterday on the triple round is relevant here. It refers to the rounds of vipaka, defilements and kamma, spinning round and round until defilements are eradicated: >"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) , Ch. XVII 298. 4.'With triple round it spins for ever' (par. 288): here formations and becoming are the 'round of kamma'. Ignorance, craving and clinging are the 'round of defilements' . Consciousness, mentality- materiality, the sixfold base, contact and feeling are the 'round of result'. So this Wheel of Becoming, having a triple round with these three rounds, should be understood to spin, revolving again and again, forever; for the conditions are not cut off as the round of defilements is not cut off. ************ ********* *** T: Thanks to Larry. But the Wheel of Becoming is just an interpretation of the Dependent Origination. It does not state that a kamma-vipaka causes a new kamma. ... S: It states that on account of consciousness (i.e rebirth consciousness and following vipaka cittas), mentality-materiality (cetasikas and rupas conditioned by kamma), the sixfold base (ayatanas, starting with eye-base), contact and feeling (here referring to them as vipaka cetasikas), there arises ignorance, craving and clinging (akusala cittas), which lead to further formations and becoming (sankhara and bhava, i.e 'new' kamma). Simply, kamma -> vipaka -> akusala -> kamma -> vipaka, on and on. The 3 rounds of kamma-vatta, vipaka-vatta, kilesa-vatta. Metta, Sarah =========== #89849 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 5:13 pm Subject: Re: 5 aggregates analyzing dukkha truth_aerator Hello Anthony, Tep and all, Tep is correct. What I should add is that 5 aggregates is also how the world is experienced. In some suttas, the 5 aggregates are talked in VERB, not noun, form. Form, deforms. Feeling feels, perception percieves, volition wills, consciousness cognizes. Part of it is in MN43 (or 44) and somewhere in khandasamyutta. Best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep" wrote: > > > Hi, Antony, - > > First thing first, Antony. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" > wrote: > > > > Dear Group, > > > > Is it right to say that the teaching on the five clinging aggregates > > were the Buddha's way of analyzing dukkha rather than his way of > > analyzing the self. > > > > Thanks / Antony. > > > > T: A "false refuge from dukkha" is the DSG-Abhidhamma key > teaching that anatta is only seen through the door of ultimate > reality. The first Entrance to Anatta, that the Buddha taught the > disciples, always begins with observing impermanence (anicca) and > suffering (dukkha) in the body and the khandhas, then by > contemplating not-self (anatta) in whatever is suffering(dukkha). > When the meditator begins to be disenchanted (nibbida) with the > khandhas, s/he will not think of them as 'me' and 'mine'. Then and > only then the anatta dhamma will arise according to Anatta-lakkhana > Sutta. And emptiness will be ultimately seen. > > Tep > === > #89850 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 5:35 pm Subject: Re: Question regarding "Conceptual" realities truth_aerator Hello Rinzeee and all, did I understand you correctly when you have said >--- "rinzeee" wrote: > Through Perversions of ultimate realities, > conceptual "realities" "come out". There are 3 types of perversions > that a Worldling is subjected to, (1) Perverted perceptions, (2) > Perverted consciousness and (3) Perverted view, (This is mine, This > I am, This is myself). What about MN1: "The Blessed One said: "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — perceives X as X. Perceiving X as X, he conceives [things] about X, he conceives [things] in X, he conceives [things] coming out of X, he conceives X as 'mine,' he delights in X. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html In the place of X we can put so called "paramattha" dhammas. Also, Isn't the talk about "the multiplicity of dhammas taken together to produce the conceptual reality contradictory to this sutta? "He perceives Multiplicity as Multiplicity. Perceiving Multiplicity , he conceives things about Multiplicity, he conceives things in Multiplicity, he conceives things coming out of Multiplicity, he conceives Multiplicity as 'mine,' he delights in Multiplicity. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you." - MN1 After reading MN#1, how can this be reconciled? > Lord Buddha says in Chabbisodhana Sutta MN 112: > > "Friends, there are these six elements rightly proclaimed by the > Blessed One who knows and sees, accomplished and fully enlightened. > What six? They are the earth element, the water element, the fire > element, the air element, the space element and the consciousness > element." > > Note here that, apart from Nibbana, in the above grouping of 4, > Consciousness and Matter is covered here. What is remaining are the > Mental States, which distinguishes conceptual, from ultimate >reality. Is space a mental state, if so why? Why isn't it in rupa or a paramattha dhamma? Best wishes, Alex #89851 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 6:20 pm Subject: Re: BE AWARE OF THE RIGHT OBJECT AT THE RIGHT TIME (4) kenhowardau > Thirdly, "always": this is not to imply that there can be sati accompanying every moment of consciousness (citta), but rather in the sense that it should continually remain the "aim or goal" as above. It is the "aim or goal" in the beginning, the middle and the end - for worldlings and Ariyanas alike. > ********** > Hi Sarah, Thanks for posting this excellent series. I remember years ago trying to tell someone (Rob M?) that being mindful now was not the same as being mindful all the time. The concept of 'all the time' is just like any other concept, isn't it? It is like a 'stream of cittas' for example. It is not satipatthana. Ken H PS: I'm glad you and Jon didn't get too close to that shark. I suppose if there's one good reason for swimming pre-dawn in the middle of winter it's that the sharks are still in bed! #89852 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 7:08 pm Subject: Re: 5 aggregates analyzing dukkha dhammanusarin Dear Alex, - You were alking about the aggregates(khandhas) ... > Alex: > Hello Anthony, Tep and all, > Tep is correct. What I should add is that 5 aggregates is also how > the world is experienced. In some suttas, the 5 aggregates are talked in VERB, not noun, form. > > Form, deforms. Feeling feels, perception percieves, volition wills, > consciousness cognizes. > > Part of it is in MN43 (or 44) and somewhere in khandasamyutta. > ........................ T: It is SN 22.79 that describes the "verb", or function, of the khandhas. "And why do you call it 'form'? Because it is afflicted (ruppati), thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form. "And why do you call it 'feeling'? Because it feels, thus it is called 'feeling.' What does it feel? It feels pleasure, it feels pain, it feels neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Because it feels, it is called feeling. "And why do you call it 'perception'? Because it perceives, thus it is called 'perception.' What does it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow, it perceives red, it perceives white. Because it perceives, it is called perception. "And why do you call them 'fabrications'? Because they fabricate fabricated things, thus they are called 'fabrications.' What do they fabricate as a fabricated thing? From form-ness, they fabricate form as a fabricated thing. From feeling-ness, they fabricate feeling as a fabricated thing. From perception-hood...From fabrication-hood...From consciousness-hood, they fabricate consciousness as a fabricated thing. Because they fabricate fabricated things, they are called fabrications. "And why do you call it 'consciousness'? Because it cognizes, thus it is called consciousness. What does it cognize? It cognizes what is sour, bitter, pungent, sweet, alkaline, non-alkaline, salty, & unsalty. Because it cognizes, it is called consciousness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.079.than.html .............. I am not clear, though, why perception perceives only colors, and consciousness cognizes only tastes. Maybe 'colors and tastes' are just a few examples taken from the population of other things that are left understood. Tep === #89853 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 7:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior dhammanusarin Hi Herman and Sarah, - I am interested in your following discussion. > Sarah: On the other-hand, for the wise, there may be wise attention and the development of understanding following the kusala vipaka. All that are experienced through the body-sense are various rupas, none of them a 'body', none of them belonging to anyone. With such understanding and detachment, there is kusala kamma. > Herman: It seems to me that the accumulations that this explanation relies upon certainly must belong to someone. Else, how do disembodied accumulations lead to action, as you suggest? .............. T: I think the dead-end that you are pointing at, Herman, results from the ultimate viewpoint that is "beyond" the realities here and now. So we will hear again that there are no pannatti or concepts in the ultimate realities, or we may hear again that all concepts are only "conventionally real" and ultimately there are no individual, no action(no doing). How may the discussion be re-formulated such that the dead-end is resolved? Tep === #89854 From: "nichiconn" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Corner: DN 33 Twos (26-29) nichiconn Dear Scott, Nina, my mistake! sorry. thank you, Nina. connie > This should just be turned around: vipatti is failure and sampadaa is > attainment. > Nina. > #89843: > > > CSCD > > Siilavipatti ca di.t.thivipatti ca. > > Walshe > > DN 33.1.9(26) > #89855 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 9:44 pm Subject: Fwd: Hellow! dsgmods Forwarded message from a new member ********************************** --- shyamtagade@... wrote: > My dear dhamma brothers and sisters, > Namo Buddhaya! > > 1. As a new member to the group, I am sending a short introduction of > mine. > > 2. I am Shyam Tagade residing in Nagpur a city with 3 million population > in a state of Maharashtra of Indian Union. I am a civil servant, a > bureaucrat. I am an Indian Administrative Service officer. I am 45. > > 3. I am a Buddhist by birth. My parents embraced Buddha Dhamma in 1956 > under the leadership of Dr Ambedkar. I am a practitioner of Uposatha > Atthasila and Eightfold Path. I practise anapana sati and vipassana. > > 4. Since 1999, I am involved in the dhamma propagation work by > organising workshops for the practice of atthasila. I studied vipassana > at Dhammagiri Igatpuri in Maharashtra. > > 5. I have authored two dhamma books. First book BUDDHA DHAMMA MISSION OF > BODHISATTA AMBEDKAR was released in 2004. This is a 700 hundred pages > book and it deals with all the basic aspects of dhamma from the aspect > patipatti. Till today its translations in two more language have been > released. My second book BODHISATTVA AMBEDKARANCHI DHAMMASANKALPANA : > VIPARYASA ANI VASTAVA is a Marathi book. It will be translated in > English shortly. > > 6. I am happy to join this group. The discussions on this group are > practise-oriented and one derives inspiration to practise eightfold path > with enhanced commitment. > > 7. Since I am new to the group, I will be obliged if I am introduced to > some of the regular members. Some ven. monks also seem to be active on > the group. I will be happy to know them. > > With regards, > Shyam Tagade, IAS. <....> #89856 From: "Tep" Date: Sat Sep 6, 2008 9:58 pm Subject: Re: Old kamma & present behavior? Vipaka & New Kamma ... dhammanusarin Hi Sarah (Herman, Alex, Antony), - It seems that you are relying heavily on the Vism. It makes me think twice before saying, "I disagree with you" ! I have said before that the pure (uncontaminated) Abhidhamma principles are compatible with the Suttas; but I only have disagreement with the way they are interpreted by DSG Abhidhammikas regarding ultimate realities and anatta. I am trying to keep the discussion focus in mind and not deviated to other issues. Most discussions I knew quickly became not interesting mainly because the original focus had been forgotten, when more and more issues/ideas were introduced (intentionally or unintentionally). Your ideas, that are transparent to me, are as follows. 1. "Vipaka refers only to cittas (and cetasikas) conditioned by kamma." Examples are: rebirth consciousness; bhavanga cittas; moments of seeing, hearing and body consciousness. 2. "Strictly speaking, the cetana is kamma." 3. Kusala vipaka leads to further good kamma. 4. "Vedana (feeling) arises with every citta." 5. Kusala vipaka is usually followed by attachment to good feelings when there is "no wise attention and no awareness". Accumulation of attachment leads to akusala kamma. With "understanding and detachment", there is kusala kamma. 6. The Wheel of Becoming in the nut-shell is "simply" kamma -> vipaka -> akusala -> kamma -> vipaka, on and on. .............................. T: I have some doubts in regard to your ideas in 1, 2, 3, and 6. [It sounds much better than a blunt disagreement, huh?] 1. According to AN 10.60 (Grimananda Sutta), kamma vipaka is seen as diseases in the body . Kamma-vipaka is not a single patisandhi-citta; it is the whole rebirth-process (upapatti-bhava), i.e. the arising, growing, decaying and passing away of all these kammically neutral phenomena of existence. [Fundamentals of Buddhism. Four Lectures by Nyanatiloka Mahathera] 2. "Cetana is kamma" does not mean cetana is the same as kamma. We know they are not. In SN 22.121 the Buddha said, "Feeling is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire & passion related to it, is clinging related to it." And we know it does not mean that desire & passion(tanha) is the same as clinging (upadana). 3. It should be corrected to : Kusala vipaka-citta leads to kusala cetana and kusala kamma. Then we will not contradict to the Buddha's words. 6. That linear model has a big flaw; it says : when vipaka ceases, then the Wheel of Becoming stops. But that is not true according to Dependent Origination. Tep === #89857 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Hellow! sarahprocter... Dear Shyam, Thank you very much for your interesting introduction. I notice that you were born into a Buddhist family in India. As you are obviously a writer and have such interest in the Dhamma, I'll look forward to further discussions with you. > 6. I am happy to join this group. The discussions on this group are > practise-oriented and one derives inspiration to practise eightfold path > with enhanced commitment. > > 7. Since I am new to the group, I will be obliged if I am introduced to > some of the regular members. Some ven. monks also seem to be active on > the group. I will be happy to know them. .... S: It's fair enough that any newcomers should ask for 'introductions' from regulars. In brief, we're all ages, from all over the world and from all kinds of different backgrounds! I think it's best if you reply to any posts by anyone you'd like to hear more about and ask for more details. I'm from England originally, but have lived in Hong Kong for a long time. Jon (Jonothan) is from Australia, but also lives in Hong Kong. We're semi-retired here. Nina comes from Holland. Other 'regulars' come from the States, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Australia and Canada (just looking at the last page of posts sent). Metta, Sarah p.s For any further posts/letters, send them directly to: ============== #89858 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 12:50 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 298 and verse in Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 298 Intro: In the preceding sections it was explained that there was a fivefold cause in the past that conditions a fivefold fruit at present, and that in the present life there is a fivefold cause that produces a fivefold fruit in the future. The links were classified as five that are kamma and five that are result. There is the round of kamma and the round of result. The following section introduces another round, the round of defilements. Ignorance, craving and clinging are now classified as the round of defilements. The ‘triple round’ are the rounds of kilesa (defilements), of kamma and of vipaaka. Defilements condition the performing of kamma which produces vipaaka in the form of rebirth and of sense-cognitions during life. On account of vipaaka defilements tend to arise and these motivate the committing of kamma. This happens time and again in our daily life: defilements arise because of what is seen, heard or experienced through the other senses and defilements can motivate akusala kamma through body, speech or mind. Thus the cycle goes on and on. As was explained before by the Tiika, ignorance, craving and clinging support kamma-accumulation (kammasambhaara). -------------- Text Vis. 298: 'With triple round it spins for ever' (par. 288): here formations and becoming are the 'round of kamma'. Ignorance, craving and clinging are the 'round of defilements'. Consciousness, mentality-materiality, the sixfold base, contact and feeling are the 'round of result'. So this Wheel of Becoming, having a triple round with these three rounds, should be understood to spin, revolving again and again, forever; for the conditions are not cut off as the round of defilements is not cut off. ----------- The Tiika adds a verse that is also given in the “Dispeller of Delusion” (p. 237), which, in Ch VI, renders the same text as the Visuddhimagga on the Dependent Origination. This verse, given in the Tiika with a word explanation, is omitted in the text of the Visuddhimagga. The verse is as follows: Thus with its causes this arises; it is painful, impermanent, unlasting, fickle and changeable. States [dhammas] originate from [other] states as causes; no self exists here, nor another. As causes, constituents, conditions, it is states that produce states. And the Buddha taught the Dhamma for cessation of [all] causes. When causes have been made to cease, the round, being cut, revolves no more; So here the life of purity [brahmacariya] exists to make a [final] end of pain. Finding no being, there is neither eternity nor annihilation. ---------- The Tiika explains words of this verse: ‘Thus with its causes this arises (Eva.m samuppannamida.m sahetuka.m)’, this refers to vipaaka arisen from kamma. Samupanna refers here also to sa”nkhaara, formations, arising from ignorance. This means the Wheel of Becoming, the Tiika states. We read: ‘impermanent, unlasting, fickle and changeable (dukkha.m anicca.m calamittaraddhuva.m)’. As to the word fickle, ittara, this means a dhamma that is perishable. The word impermanent, aniccaa, denotes that what has arisen is subject to ageing, etc. It is by nature changeable, unsteady (cala), and this means the absence of steadiness in a period of time. As we read: ‘dhammas originate from [other] dhammas as causes; no self exists here, nor another.’ (dhammehi dhammaa pabhavanti hetuso, na hettha attaava parova vijjati). As causes, constituents, conditions, it is states that produce states. (Dhammaa dhamme sa~njanenti, hetusambhaarapaccayaa) This refers to all the preceding passages about the links that are kamma (ignorance etc.) producing vipaaka (consciousness, as rebirth- consciousness etc.). Dhammas are producing dhammas, there is no place for a person. As to the last phrase: (satte ca nupalabbhante, nevucchedo na sassatan”ti), the Tiika explains that mere dhammas are produced which are dependent on a cause, and hence no being is to be found. When one believes in annihilation, one does not see that there is an uninterrupted production of phenomena. One does not see that the dying-consciousness is immediately succeeded by rebirth-consciousness. When one believes in eternalism, one does not see the cessation of phenomena arising in succession; one does not see that there is no being who travels from the past life to the present life. So long as there is clinging to the idea of self, there can be annihilation belief or eternity belief. ------------- Conclusion: One can learn that whatever arises because of conditions, is a mere dhamma, it does not come from anywhere nor does it go anywhere. No being, no person is to be found. ****** Nina. #89859 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 12:55 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 10, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, We should speak at the right time, not at the wrong time. We have to be considerate of other people’s feelings. When it is not the right time for Dhamma discussion, we can talk about other topics with kusala citta. Khun Sujin said to me: “We apply Dhamma, also when we do not speak about Dhamma.” I used to think that talk about flowers, fruits, nature, children and grandchildren was always motivated by akusala citta; that it was “animal talk”, mentioned in the “Vinaya”(Sutta-Vibhaòga, Pacittiya 85), such as “Talk of kings, of thieves, of great ministers, of armies....” This is talk monks should not engage in. Phra Dhammadhara explained to me that even talk which is mentioned among the “animal talk” can sometimes be motivated by kusala citta. For example, when one talks about a king, saying that even kings have to die, the citta which remembers the impermanence of life is kusala citta. We can speak about the things other people are interested in with mettå and karunå, with consideration for their feelings. Khun Sujin explained to me that pleasing other people is not necessarily motivated by attachment; it can be motivated by kusala citta. For instance, when we say: “What a beautiful garden you have”, it can be said with attachment, but it can also be said with kindness or with sympathetic joy (muditå). It all depends on the citta which motivates the speaking. At the moment of sympathetic joy there is no envy. It is precisely when we are with others that we should cultivate the virtues which are the brahmavihåras of mettå, karunå, muditå and upekkhå (equanimity). I asked Phra Dhammadhara what I should say when others tell me stories with akusala cittas. He remarked: “What a splendid opportunity to cultivate mettå and karunå at such moments.” When mettå and karunå arise, the kusala citta will know what to say. We visited someone who had great aversion towards harsh sounds. He was angry with people who amused themselves with firecrackers on the occasion of the New Year. I could sympathize with him because when there is a radio which is too loud I have aversion immediately. We do not like aversion and unpleasant feeling, but have we really understood the cause of dosa (aversion)? When we have problems do we think of the cause of our problems in the right way? The cause is always within ourselves: our own defilements. The arahats have no more problems. We like pleasant objects and we dislike unpleasant objects. Attachment conditions aversion. I knew that in theory, but I had to be reminded of it when there was aversion. Khun Sujin emphasized that when there is aversion it shows that the attachment which conditions it must be very strong. That made me see how ugly akusala is. At the moment of aversion there is no patience, no calm. ****** Nina. #89860 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 aggregates analyzing dukkha sarahprocter... Dear Antony, --- On Sat, 6/9/08, Antony Woods wrote: >Is it right to say that the teaching on the five clinging aggregates were the Buddha's way of analyzing dukkha rather than his way of analyzing the self. .... S: They are dukkha because they are impermanent and not in anyone's control. So, I think they point to the anicca, dukkha and anatta characteristics of all conditioned dhammas. Metta, Sarah ========= #89861 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important1 sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sat, 6/9/08, Alex wrote: > Scott: What do you think of the phrase 'being the knower'? This came > up about one quarter of the way into the talk. How would you explain > this? How do you see such a phrase in relation to sakkaaya-di. t.thi? ... A:>The vinnana-sota, stream of consciousness (vinnana). It is mentioned in Digha Nikaya. >Scott, the problem is in *your* head trying to reify figures of speech and slander venerable Monks. .... Alex, this isn't the first time that you've suggested that someone 'slanders vernerable Monks' when they question comments on the Dhamma made by monks in the context of a dhamma discussion. I know for a fact that Ven Sumedho (or Ven Bodhi, for example) wouldn't consider such a questioning or discussion of their comments to be 'slander' of 'venerable Monks'. Metta, Sarah =========== #89862 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? Vipaka & New Kamma ... sarahprocter... Hi Tep(& Herman), --- On Sun, 7/9/08, Tep wrote: >Your ideas, that are transparent to me, are as follows. >1. "Vipaka refers only to cittas (and cetasikas) conditioned by kamma." Examples are: rebirth consciousness; bhavanga cittas; moments of seeing, hearing and body consciousness. .... S: Yes ... >2. "Strictly speaking, the cetana is kamma." ... S: Yes ... >3. Kusala vipaka leads to further good kamma. .... S: No, I haven't said this. I've said 'it depends'. Kusala vipaka is much more likely to be followed by akusala cittas and if strong enough, to akusala kamma. .... >4. "Vedana (feeling) arises with every citta." .... S: Yes ... >5. Kusala vipaka is usually followed by attachment to good feelings when there is "no wise attention and no awareness". Accumulation of attachment leads to akusala kamma. With "understanding and detachment", there is kusala kamma. ... S: Yes. This corrects (3) above in your summary - maybe a typo? ... >6. The Wheel of Becoming in the nut-shell is "simply" kamma -> vipaka -> akusala -> kamma -> vipaka, on and on. .... S: Yes ............ ......... ......... >T: I have some doubts in regard to your ideas in 1, 2, 3, and 6. [It sounds much better than a blunt disagreement, huh?] .... S: :-) Let's forget (3) because I disagree with it too! ... T:> 1. According to AN 10.60 (Grimananda Sutta), kamma vipaka is seen as diseases in the body . ... S: Can you give me the quote for this? The rupas of the body may be produced by kamma. They may also be conditioned by temperature, citta or nutriment. The painful bodily feeling and bodily experience is conditioned by kamma. It is the latter which is vipaka. ... T:> Kamma-vipaka is not a single patisandhi-citta; it is the whole rebirth-process (upapatti-bhava) , i.e. the arising, growing, decaying and passing away of all these kammically neutral phenomena of existence. [Fundamentals of Buddhism. Four Lectures by Nyanatiloka Mahathera] .... S: As I said, patisandhi is just the first vipaka citta in life. It is followed by many more bhavanga cittas and vipaka cittas through the sense-doors. Each citta arises, decays and falls away. .... T:> 2. "Cetana is kamma" does not mean cetana is the same as kamma. We know they are not. ... S: I'd put it more precisely this way: Kamma is actually cetana cetasika, but as cetana arises with every single citta, it is the cetana which accompanies kusala and akusala cittas only which can condition the results of kusala and akusala deeds committed through body, speech or mind. This cetana is accumulated so that it can bring about the results, either as vipaka cittas or the rupas of the body as discussed. Of course, such kamma is not always kamma patha (completed action). There are many factors involved in this. For example, someone might intend to swat a mosquito, but miss, so it wouldn't be kamma patha. I recommend you read the chapter on kamma-paccaya in Nina's book "Conditions" to be found on Zolag website. ... T:> However, cetana In SN 22.121 the Buddha said, "Feeling is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire & passion related to it, is clinging related to it." And we know it does not mean that desire & passion(tanha) is the same as clinging (upadana). T:> 3. It should be corrected to : Kusala vipaka-citta leads to kusala cetana and kusala kamma. Then we will not contradict to the Buddha's words. .... S: Again, I'd say 'it depends'. Usually, it doesn't. ... T:> 6. That linear model has a big flaw; it says : when vipaka ceases, then the Wheel of Becoming stops. But that is not true according to Dependent Origination. .... S: With the eradication of attachment and ignorance, there is no further kamma, no further rebirth. **** Tep, please take it that all my comments are intented with an 'according to my understanding of the teachings to date'. I'm interested to hear your further comments. Metta, Sarah ============ #89863 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 2:55 am Subject: How not to prolong pain? bhikkhu0 Friends: How not to Continue and Prolong Suffering? The Blessed Buddha once said: Friends, whoever recluse or priest now, in the past, or in the future regard whatever pleasant and attractive, there is in this world as permanent, as lasting, as happiness, as self, as healthy, as secure, they all thereby only stimulate craving! By stimulating craving they long, thirsts and hankers, thereby inducing production of sense desires, production of defilements, production of intentions, hopes, wishes and planning, and production of these 5 clusters of clinging! By nurturing uptake of such accumulation of fuel for becoming, fuel for existence, they indeed provoke continuation! Thus provoking prolongation, they are neither freed from birth, nor from decay & ageing, nor are they freed from death! They are therefore not released from sorrow, from depression, from despair, from misery, from pain, from frustration, from discontent, nor from hopelessness. I tell you: They are not freed from neither the present, nor from any future suffering! But friends, whoever recluse or priest now, in the past, or in the future regard whatever pleasant and attractive, there is here in this world as impermanent, as transient, as suffering, as no-self, as a disease, as danger, as fearful, as an empty terror, they thereby all reduce craving. After having gradually eliminated all craving, I tell you: They are thereby freed from all Suffering... See also: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_5_Clusters_of_Clinging.htm Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 109-112 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #89864 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 3:26 am Subject: How what we do affects others (or doesn't) philofillet Hi Scott, Sarah and anyone else who wants to discuss this topic. I'd like to follow up on this if you don't mind because I realized thanks to reflecting on it that basically this is what I'm all about, that my attitude or interests lie in the complete opposite of what Scott wrote below. So I appreciate what he wrote because it helped me figure out where I'm at. Scott wrote: > > I think for the unawakened it is wise to recall that what goes on for > > one stays with one and that what goes on for another stays with > > another because there are only 'mere phenomena rolling on'. I think > > it unnecessary to get caught up in dreams about how one 'mind- stream' > > influences 'another mind-stream'. I wrote: > I must admit that thinking how one mind-stream influences another > makes perfect sense to me. I mean, just for one example, there is the > sutta with Rahula in which the Buddha encourages him to consider > whether what he has done, is doing or will do is "harmful to oneself, > harmful to others, or harmful to both." (Paraphrase, but pretty sure it > is just about spot on.) If the Buddha encourages us to reflect on > whether what we do is harmful to others, what can that be other > than "what goes on for one" in fact *not* "staying with one?" See what > I mean? How can we "do harm to others" if their mind-stream or cittas > or whatever are not effected by what we do? Scott and Sarah (with whom Scott was agreeing, if I recall), don't you think that while it could certainly be said that there is no point reflecting on *how* we (so to speak) influence others' cittas, that we (sic) certainly do have an influence? I'm happy if you stick with what you wrote above, mind you, but again, I just don't get how it can be said that "what goes on for one stays with one." What about if I glare at someone with angry eyes conditioned by my cittas and it causes aversion in the others' cittas. I mean, everytime we talk to someone there is likely to be either aversion or attachment arising in response to what we say or in response to are facial expression or whatever. I mean, that's just one example... Do you not think this is the case because the "other" does not exist in ultimate terms or something? Thanks! Metta, Phil #89865 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important sarahprocter... Hi Tep & all, I listened to the first part of the recording. I used to know A.Sumedho when he first moved to London (as I recall on A.Chah's instructions). Both he (and A.Chah) knew that I had a keen interest in Abhidhamma and a different idea of 'practice' and it was never an 'issue'. I also took Jon and K.Sujin to visit him at Chithurst in Sussex once, as I recall. He was always friendly, good-humoured and hospitable and I found myself smiling a lot again as I listened to the recording. I liked the emphasis on 'Now' and how most of what we find important, such as various causes, ideals, worldly views and so on is really all 'nonsense', trivial and foolish. I was also interested in his comments on responsibilities and how sometimes he just wants to go back to bed because he feels so overwhelmed by them. he didn't after all choose to be the Abbot of a busy monastery and so on. People have an idea that monks (especially those in the Forest tradition) have no responsibilities and can just wander in the forest, developing awareness. Of course, this isn't correct, because monks have many duties. My only other comment is that when I hear talks like this one, it's a reminder to me about why we need to be very precise about terms we use, such as 'sakkaya ditthi', 'anatta', '8 foldpath', 'sankhara', 'awareness'. Otherwise, it's very easy to use them with a common/conventional meaning which may have little bearing on the precise definitions as used by the Buddha. (Please don't ask me for examples, because I didn't make notes and don't wish to go back and check again.) Metta, Sarah ============= #89866 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 3:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] I will die sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Thank you for Simon's story. But now he may have an opportunity to listen to some Dhamma explanations by you, he still has a chance, and may not have another chance, except when you meet him at the Bay. ... S: So many conditions at work. It depends whether we meet, whether he has any interest to listen or discuss the Dhamma. .... Momentary death: I am so impressed by the Visuddhimagga texts on this subject: like rebirth-consciousne ss following upon dying consciousness; rebirth-consciousne ss does not come from anywhere nor does it go anywhere and this is true for each citta. .... S: Yes, death now all the time and only ever the present citta. We can all benefit from the reminders at least. ... N:> I liked the last posting of BE AWARE OF THE RIGHT OBJECT AT THE RIGHT TIME, best. This is good: .... S: I would have preferred the emphasis to be on understanding rather than awareness as the" 'aim or goal' in the beginning, the middle and the end - for worldlings and Ariyans alike." Of course, satipatthana or such sati as describes, implies right understanding, but I think it's a question of emphasis. Metta, Sarah ======= #89867 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Warnings .... No Sarah, no Ken H ... sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Thu, 4/9/08, Alex wrote: > S: Are you sure that even 'perhaps' trees are included? What do you >understand the characteristic of sanna to be, Alex? Is it a nama or a >rupa? What is a content of sanna? Are such 'contents' sanna khandha? .... A:> Walk into one and tell me. >Same with walls as well. ... S: If we walk into a tree, a wall or a body, what is actually experienced is hardness through the body-sense, surely? The hardness is just hardness, no matter what terms or labels are given to it afterwards. So the hardness is rupa khandha. I'm still trying to understand what you mean by trees as being included in sanna khandha? Which doorway are such trees experienced through? What is really experienced? Metta, Sarah ======= #89868 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 4:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? Vipaka & New Kamma ... philofillet Hi all (p.s to Sarah) I haven't been able to read this thread, but since I am so often reflecting on vipaka and resulting kamma I'd like to share this kind of inspiring passage by Bhikkhu Bodhi. I think it's from his introduction to the SN 35 section (ayatanasamyutta?) section of the anthology he and ? translated: "It is the sense faculties that give us access to the agreeable and disagreeable phenomena of the world and it is our spontaneous, impulsive response to these phenomena that sow the seeds of so much suffering. Withing the untrained mind lust, hatred and delusion are always lying latent, and with delusion obscuing the true nature of things, agreeable objects are *bound to* provoke lust and greed, disagreeable objects, hatred and delusion. These spontaneous reactions flood the mind and bid for our consent. If we are not careful we may rush ahead in pursuit of immeditate gratification, oblivious to the fact that the fruit of sensual enjoyment is misery." If people are interested in the vipaka > kamma reaction SN 35 is definitely the place to spend a lot of time! And another thing on vipaka to share. I like to think of myself (so to speak - at this level of analysis, at the level of reflecting on ayatanas, it is all about cittas) as a vipaka lightning rod! The vipaka is my due, I have earned it, and a kind of resilience can be developed to it so that it is at least a little less likely to spark kammic resultants. The vipaka can be grounded, a little, the way a lightning rod grounds lightning. (Isn't that what lightning rods do?) As a parallel to this, I think of setting up mindfulness of the body and the way the Buddha says it sets up a pole at which the senses come to lie down. Mindfulness in the body set up to whatever degree there are conditions for helps to set up resilience to vipaka, it desensitizes the responsiveness or something - people who meditate on the breath can probably all attest to this. Metta, Phil p.s thanks for the response to "I will die", Sarah. My time is up. Back to you in a couple of days. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep(& Herman), > > --- On Sun, 7/9/08, Tep wrote: > > >Your ideas, that are transparent to me, are as follows. > >1. "Vipaka refers only to cittas (and cetasikas) conditioned by > kamma." Examples are: rebirth consciousness; bhavanga cittas; > moments of seeing, hearing and body consciousness. > .... > S: Yes > ... > >2. "Strictly speaking, the cetana is kamma." > ... > S: Yes > ... > >3. Kusala vipaka leads to further good kamma. > .... > S: No, I haven't said this. I've said 'it depends'. Kusala vipaka is much more likely to be followed by akusala cittas and if strong enough, to akusala kamma. > #89869 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 4:14 am Subject: Re: Andrew L's pic and the usual round-up call sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, I had meant to add a few brief comments to your re-introduction which you kindly sent on your return. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "purist_andrew" wrote: > One of the books I got was 'Wings to Awakening' which deals with the > 37 factors or 'aids' to enlightenment. It started off good, > Thanissaro Bhikkhu was explaining the path in more psychological and > practical terms, with little or no dogma or doctrine, like seeing > experience in terms of the Four Noble Truths, examining the processes > of the mind and working skillfully with them and even skillfulness > itself until you get so refined to the point where intention itself > is disbanded and release occurs, with the old karma playing itself > out in a feedback loop until death. ... S: Let's just be clear that intention (cetana) is never 'disbanded'. Cetana continues to arise with every citta, including every citta of the Buddha's. What you mean, I presume, is that for the arahat, there is no new kamma. .... > I can't wait to get back to college. Right now I'm waiting on word > from my father about financial help. > > My treatment is going OK, the switch of program seems to be helping, ... S: I remember you've been through a lot of difficulties and I'm very happy to hear that you'll be getting back to college and that your treatment is going well. Please keep in touch to let us know how it all goes, Andrew. ... > ==Re: Dhamma practice== > > For a long time I've been accumulating Dharma books considering that > each reading of a new book presents a new opportunity for practice. > One of the latest books, "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" by > Silananda, was very helpful, I felt re-established in spiritual > practice which is something I *very* much desire to come back to, but > I wasn't able to keep it up with all going around me, security guard > asking me what I'm doing when I was meditating outside the store > waiting for my friend, so I lost the meditation. .... S: I remember you had a story before about when people stared at you in NY doing your slow walking meditation. As you know, the way I understand the development of satipatthana has nothing to do with a special practice while waiting for a friend, 'losing the meditation' or slow walking. ..... > I'm trying to think if dana can be extended to certain Dharma books, > too. I know in the old days they used to say relinquish everything, > but today no one has the memory powers attributed to the people > earlier in the dispensation (Buddha, Ananda, and so on), so the books > are kind of like an instruction manual, needed to the end. Therefore > I think Dharma books might be an exception to some extent to > generosity, some of them anyway. .... S: I think there can be many kinds of dana. 'Relinquishing' one's Dhamma books or giving them to someone who may not make good use of them, may not be wise at all. Remember, 'relinquishing' is a mental state, not something measurable by how many or few books one has around one. ... > > I have gladly given out computer books both on request and without > request, but I feel the Dhamma books are a need, for now. .... S: They are a precious access to the Buddha's teachings if used wisely. [Btw, I remember your computer expertise. Do you (or anyone else) happen to have expertise in perl programming? If so, could you let me or Jon know off-list.} ... > One of the things I picked up was "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma > Thera, which was pretty comprehensive. My doctor and I think I have > a knack for picking these things up pretty quickly, I felt > established in this type of mindfulness down to the letter while I > was grocery shopping with my mom. ... S: You're obviously very smart (as we commonly use the word). However, when it comes to the development of satipatthana and being 'established' in this, I think we have to consider the meaning a lot more carefully. What does it mean, would you say, to be 'established in this type of mindfulness'? What are the objects of such mindfulness? Who is established? ... >So one of these days I think while > I'm by myself the meditation will spontaneously manifest and I'll >be good to go. ... S: I'd like to hear more about what you mean by this. Thanks again for all the great detail and up-to-date. Metta, Sarah =========== #89870 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 5:21 am Subject: Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important dhammanusarin Dear Sarah and all, - Thank you for the interesting story about your visit, accompanied by Khun Sujin and Jon, with Ajahn Sumedho. It is not clear in the story whether there was a significant Dhamma discussion or important questions asked, especially about samatha & vipassana versus "understanding now", during the meeting. >S: My only other comment is that when I hear talks like this one, it's a reminder to me about why we need to be very precise about terms we use, such as 'sakkaya ditthi', 'anatta', '8 foldpath', 'sankhara', 'awareness'. Otherwise, it's very easy to use them with a common/conventional meaning which may have little bearing on the precise definitions as used by the Buddha. (Please don't ask me for examples, because I didn't make notes and don't wish to go back and check again.) T: I completely agree with you that precise meanings of the dhammas are very important. But it is many times more important when the true meanings are directly known. I am sorry if I have caused inconveniences by asking you (in the other post ?) to give examples to support the cases. But it is always important that we must know the dhammas and the Teachings well enough to be able to relate them to the real world of beings, kamma and vipaka. Just citing the suttas or the Vism and the Abhidhamma or the commentaries of the Vism and the Abhidhamma is not good enough in my humble opinion. I do not claim to be Mr. Perfect, though. Tep === #89871 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 6:03 am Subject: Re: How what we do affects others (or doesn't) dhammanusarin Hi Phil (and Scott, Alex, Herman), - I too believe that it is an important reflection one must often make on how his/her action may affect/influence others. This is a part of being a considerate person, and it is what the Buddha taught in MN 61. > > Scott: I think it unnecessary to get caught up in dreams about > > how one 'mindstream' influences 'another mind-stream'. >Ph : Scott and Sarah (with whom Scott was agreeing, if I recall), don't you think that while it could certainly be said that there is no point reflecting on *how* we (so to speak) influence others' cittas, that we (sic) certainly do have an influence? >I just don't get how it can be said that "what goes on for one stays with one." What about if I glare at someone with angry eyes conditioned by my cittas and it causes aversion in the others' cittas. I mean, everytime we talk to someone there is likely to be either aversion or attachment arising in response to what we say or in response to are facial expression or whatever. I mean, that's just one example... ........................ T: The Buddha said at the conclusion of MN 61 as follows: "Thus, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify my bodily actions through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal actions through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental actions through repeated reflection.' That's how you should train yourself." >Ph: Do you not think this is the case because the "other" does not exist in ultimate terms or something? T: How come the Buddha did not reflect on ultimate realities and realize that His son did not exist? How come He forgot the ultimate truth that there was 'No Buddha' ? Tep === #89872 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important sarahprocter... Dear Tep, --- On Sun, 7/9/08, Tep wrote: >Thank you for the interesting story about your visit, accompanied by Khun Sujin and Jon, with Ajahn Sumedho. It is not clear in the story whether there was a significant Dhamma discussion or important questions asked, especially about samatha & vipassana versus "understanding now", during the meeting. ... S: I don't remember any "significant Dhamma discussion". Jon and I vaguely remember some dhamma discussion and KS asking some questions, general courtesies and so on. I would have previously given him copies of Nina's books, ADL & BDL, because I used to distribute them to all the temples. I must have had some discussion with him on Abhidhamma and practice before this in London as I recall him referring to it (and how I was a student of A.Sujin's) with A.Chah who had smiled knowingly:-). .... >T: I completely agree with you that precise meanings of the dhammas are very important. But it is many times more important when the true meanings are directly known. ... S: I agree. I think the precise meanings leads to the true meanings being directly known. ... T:> I am sorry if I have caused inconveniences by asking you (in the other post ?) to give examples to support the cases. But it is always important that we must know the dhammas and the Teachings well enough to be able to relate them to the real world of beings, kamma and vipaka. Just citing the suttas or the Vism and the Abhidhamma or the commentaries of the Vism and the Abhidhamma is not good enough in my humble opinion. I do not claim to be Mr. Perfect, though. .... S: This is a kind comment but I assure you, Tep, that it wasn't the slightest inconvenience to ask me for examples at all. In fact I sincerely welcomed your request and tried to give the examples. If you'd like further examples or more detailed ones, please ask anytime. If I'm slow responding, please don't think it's because of being inconvenienced or anything like that. So now, there are different visible objects, sounds and tangible objects being experienced at different moments. In between, there is thinking about them. Is the thinking with attachment, aversion, ignorance or with awareness and understanding? It depends on many factors, many conditions, but the main one is the previous accumulation of particular tendencies to arise. The main thing is the understanding of what is conditioned to appear (as object) now, whether it be the visible object, the sound, the hearing, the like, dislike or whatever else. Metta, Sarah ========= #89873 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 6:37 am Subject: Re: Old kamma & present behavior? Vipaka & New Kamma ... dhammanusarin Hi Sarah, - I like your ending note : >S: Tep, please take it that all my comments are intented with an 'according to my understanding of the teachings to date'. T: That to me is how "understanding now" is applied to Dhamma discussion. ........................ T:> 1. According to AN 10.60 (Grimananda Sutta), kamma vipaka is seen as diseases in the body . ... >S: Can you give me the quote for this? T: Here it is : iv. "What, Ananda, is contemplation of disadvantage (danger)? Herein, Ananda, a monk having gone to the forest, or to the foot of a tree, or to a lonely place, contemplates thus: 'Many are the sufferings, many are the disadvantages (dangers) of this body since diverse diseases are engendered in this body, such as the following: Eye- disease, ear-disease, nose-disease, tongue-disease, body-disease, headache, mumps, mouth-disease, tooth-ache, cough, asthma, catarrh, heart-burn, fever, stomach ailment, fainting, dysentry, swelling, gripes, leprosy, boils, scrofula, consumption, epilepsy, ringworm, itch, eruption, tetter, pustule, plethora, diabetes, piles, cancer, fistula, and diseases originating from bile, from phlegm, from wind, from conflict of the humors, from changes of weather, from adverse condition (faulty deportment), from devices (practiced by others), from kamma-vipaka (results of kamma); and cold, heat, hunger, thirst, excrement, and urine.' Thus he dwells contemplating disadvantage (danger) in this body. This Ananda, is called contemplation of disadvantage (danger). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.piya.html ................................. T: Personally I have a tendency to listen with great attention only when I hear a Dhamma that can be verified by experience e.g. by observation, by trial and error, or by seeing real cases. The following idea that you kindly gave does not seem to be verifiable. [Sarah said :] " Kamma is actually cetana cetasika, but as cetana arises with every single citta, it is the cetana which accompanies kusala and akusala cittas only which can condition the results of kusala and akusala deeds committed through body, speech or mind. This cetana is accumulated so that it can bring about the results, either as vipaka cittas or the rupas of the body as discussed." >S: I recommend you read the chapter on kamma-paccaya in Nina's book "Conditions" to be found on Zolag website. T: Since I have become intensely interested in verifiable/directly- knowable ideas, I have refrained from reading books like the above. Thank you anyway. Tep === #89874 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 6:48 am Subject: Re: How what we do affects others (or doesn't) scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for the reply: P: "Scott and Sarah (with whom Scott was agreeing, if I recall), don't you think that while it could certainly be said that there is no point reflecting on *how* we (so to speak) influence others' cittas, that we (sic) certainly do have an influence? I'm happy if you stick with what you wrote above, mind you, but again, I just don't get how it can be said that "what goes on for one stays with one." What about if I glare at someone with angry eyes conditioned by my cittas and it causes aversion in the others' cittas. I mean, everytime we talk to someone there is likely to be either aversion or attachment arising in response to what we say or in response to are facial expression or whatever. I mean, that's just one example... "Do you not think this is the case because the 'other' does not exist in ultimate terms or something?" Scott: In ultimate terms, neither I nor the other exist. Seeing 'someone' is, ultimately, seeing visible object (colour) and then construing mightily. The 'other', in whatever form, guise, temperament, etc., is entirely created by thinking conditioned by visible object. I'll use an example from my recent everyday life. As I ponder Luke's diagnosis of Type I diabetes, I think very much about Luke and what he needs from me. I think of a boy who has lost his mother and whose life has now changed again. I then have to think of his sisters here at home, and what they might need given the change in the family. Any thoughts I have about Luke, Rebecca, or Bonnie are my thoughts. I consider them to be like the kasi.nas or concept of person in mettaa-bhaavaana. I have thoughts about how I need to be kind to them all and want them to be happy, etc. Any mental process arising for me, which might condition the ruupas of the bodies to move, gesture, compose a facial expression, or make sound, are mine. Any of those dhammas which are 'functional' and are kamma, accumulate as kamma in only one 'place' - and that is, conventionally speaking, in the next moment of consciousness arising after the previous one falls away within this particular stream. In your example, your angry glare is simply conditioned ruupa following on from some akusala dhamma and the potential for vipaaka remains with 'you'. Your 'glare victim' might get angry or be patient - nothing to do with you - only in relation to the sort of dhammas arising after colour conditioned thoughts of 'Phil glaring'. If I manage to have mettaa or karu.naa arise in relation to thoughts about Luke, then this stays with 'me'. I think that in this way we are all totally alone. What happens when Luke is having 'his own' moments of akusala (perhaps because he's thinking of 'himself with diabetes') and gets all mad when I'm helping him out of mettaa (let's say it would be, when would not be something I could control - a kind appearing act could be totally selfish)? Although he might be thinking of a Dad and of himself and the situation, and although his action might arise more quickly than he is aware, it is still only his action. If mettaa, say, is arising, and the kusala guards the senses then perhaps dosa won't displace mettaa when ideas of an ungrateful boy come to mind (conventionally). Except that by the time these sorts of ideas are coming to mind, the akusala has already come and gone. So, I still agree with Sarah. Sincerely, Scott. #89875 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 7:01 am Subject: Re: Vinnana & Sanna truth_aerator Dear Tep, Thank you for the quote. It was that sutta. > "Tep" wrote: > > Dear Alex, - > .............. > > I am not clear, though, why perception perceives only colors, and > consciousness cognizes only tastes. Maybe 'colors and tastes' are >just a few examples taken from the population of other things that >are left understood. > > Tep > === We must get clear on what exactly vinnana & sanna means. As I understand it vinnana is more basic awareness than sanna, words/language. In the case of taste vs colors, the taste is more basic than language we use to label this and that color. Ok, I could be wayyy off here. Pali experts: What does Vi stands for? What does nana stands for? vinnana = vi+nana? === 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'" "Discernment & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It's not possible, having separated them one from the other, to delineate the difference between them. For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference between them." "Discernment & consciousness, friend: What is the difference between these qualities that are conjoined, not disjoined?" "Discernment & consciousness, friend: Of these qualities that are conjoined, not disjoined, discernment is to be developed, consciousness is to be fully comprehended."1 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html ======== Best wishes, Alex #89876 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 7:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important1 truth_aerator Hi Sarah, I have read a few things about misinterpreting Ven. TB's articles by calling Ven.TB an "eternalist". It is sad when certain people take few things out of a context in the talks of Ven., overlook the anatta teachings in this Ven's writings and then incorrectly call him eternalist. It seems that something similiar may be implied here, too quickly and without enough reasons. There is such a thing called figure of speech. "Fighting Spirit", for example, doesn't mean that one has a kung-fu ghost siting inside oneself. Possibly the similiar case is with Forest Traditions who talk about "the heart, citta, the knower" only in a metaphorical or conventional matter. Best wishes, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Sat, 6/9/08, Alex wrote: > > Scott: What do you think of the phrase 'being the knower'? This came > > up about one quarter of the way into the talk. How would you explain > > this? How do you see such a phrase in relation to sakkaaya-di. t.thi? > ... > A:>The vinnana-sota, stream of consciousness (vinnana). It is mentioned > in Digha Nikaya. > > >Scott, the problem is in *your* head trying to reify figures of > speech and slander venerable Monks. > .... > Alex, this isn't the first time that you've suggested that someone 'slanders vernerable Monks' when they question comments on the Dhamma made by monks in the context of a dhamma discussion. I know for a fact that Ven Sumedho (or Ven Bodhi, for example) wouldn't consider such a questioning or discussion of their comments to be 'slander' of 'venerable Monks'. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========== > #89877 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 7:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Warnings .... No Sarah, no Ken H ... truth_aerator Dear Sarah and all, Trees as a fact of experience DO exist. You wouldn't want to drive into one at 100 mph, would you? What important are the results, which in Buddha's sense is Nibbana. How does knowing what trees are, or whether they exist at all helps one to achieve Nibbana? Best wishes, Alex #89878 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 7:18 am Subject: Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important dhammanusarin Hi again, Sarah - I appreciate the following comments : >S: I think the precise meanings leads to the true meanings being directly known. ... >S: So now, there are different visible objects, sounds and tangible objects being experienced at different moments. In between, there is thinking about them. Is the thinking with attachment, aversion, ignorance or with awareness and understanding? It depends on many factors, many conditions, but the main one is the previous accumulation of particular tendencies to arise. The main thing is the understanding of what is conditioned to appear (as object) now, whether it be the visible object, the sound, the hearing, the like, dislike or whatever else. T: Yes, if and only if "understanding of what is conditioned to appear (as object) now" is supported by a mindful, unified and non- distracted mind. Thank you very much for taking the time. Tep === #89879 From: "Tep" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 8:15 am Subject: Re: Vinnana & Sanna dhammanusarin Hello Alex, - You commented : >Alex: We must get clear on what exactly vinnana & sanna means. >As I understand it vinnana is more basic awareness than sanna, words/language. >I have got more clues from MN 43 about how and what consciousness (vinnana, citta) cognizes. ............. T: We should keep on talking about the five khandhas; for this post let's continue to discuss consciousness. "For what one discerns, that one cognizes. What one cognizes, that one discerns." T: What does consciousness cognize? MN 43 says it cognizes the three kinds of feeelings. SN 22.79 says it cognizes tastes (sour, bitter, etc.) Putting 2 and 2 together we get 4. Vinnana cognizes the various rupa and nama through the sense doors. Does this make sense to you? ................... More remains to be learned, re-learned, and dis-learned. :-)) Tep === #89880 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How what we do affects others (or doesn't) TGrand458@... Hi Phil I don't know what Sarah? and Scott were meaning to say, but your statements are absolutely correct. Every contact, encounter, association between phenomena ... affects all the elements involved. This is true both physically and mentally. In addition to your references, I can off the top of my head remember the Buddha talking about "contamination" regarding the influences that can spread from one person to another. When theories start outweighing common sense, then you know its trouble. TG In a message dated 9/7/2008 4:26:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Scott, Sarah and anyone else who wants to discuss this topic. I'd like to follow up on this if you don't mind because I realized thanks to reflecting on it that basically this is what I'm all about, that my attitude or interests lie in the complete opposite of what Scott wrote below. So I appreciate what he wrote because it helped me figure out where I'm at. Scott wrote: > > I think for the unawakened it is wise to recall that what goes on for > > one stays with one and that what goes on for another stays with > > another because there are only 'mere phenomena rolling on'. I think > > it unnecessary to get caught up in dreams about how one 'mind- stream' > > influences 'another mind-stream' I wrote: > I must admit that thinking how one mind-stream influences another > makes perfect sense to me. I mean, just for one example, there is the > sutta with Rahula in which the Buddha encourages him to consider > whether what he has done, is doing or will do is "harmful to oneself, > harmful to others, or harmful to both." (Paraphrase, but pretty sure it > is just about spot on.) If the Buddha encourages us to reflect on > whether what we do is harmful to others, what can that be other > than "what goes on for one" in fact *not* "staying with one?" See what > I mean? How can we "do harm to others" if their mind-stream or cittas > or whatever are not effected by what we do? Scott and Sarah (with whom Scott was agreeing, if I recall), don't you think that while it could certainly be said that there is no point reflecting on *how* we (so to speak) influence others' cittas, that we (sic) certainly do have an influence? I'm happy if you stick with what you wrote above, mind you, but again, I just don't get how it can be said that "what goes on for one stays with one." What about if I glare at someone with angry eyes conditioned by my cittas and it causes aversion in the others' cittas. I mean, everytime we talk to someone there is likely to be either aversion or attachment arising in response to what we say or in response to are facial expression or whatever. I mean, that's just one example... Do you not think this is the case because the "other" does not exist in ultimate terms or something? Thanks! Metta, Phil #89881 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 11:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Andrew L's pic and the usual round-up call nilovg Dear Andrew L, Op 7-sep-2008, om 13:14 heeft sarahprocterabbott het volgende geschreven: > One of the things I picked up was "The Way of Mindfulness" by Soma > > Thera, which was pretty comprehensive. My doctor and I think I > have > > a knack for picking these things up pretty quickly, I felt > > established in this type of mindfulness down to the letter while I > > was grocery shopping with my mom. -------- N: Years ago this was posted on line here in dsg and discussed. If there are passages that especially strike you, it would be good to discuss. Nina. #89882 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 2:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How what we do affects others (or doesn't) scottduncan2 Dear TG (and Phil), TG: "I don't know what Sarah? and Scott were meaning to say, but your statements are absolutely correct. Every contact, encounter, association between phenomena ... affects all the elements involved. This is true both physically and mentally. In addition to your references, I can off the top of my head remember the Buddha talking about 'contamination' regarding the influences that can spread from one person to another." Scott: I'd be interested in the textual source of the above noted notion of 'contamination' and 'influences that can spread from one person to another'. I don't think anyone is saying that thoughts about a conceptual person cannot influence subsequent consciousness. What I'm saying is that these thoughts remain within a given 'sphere' (conventionally speaking) - there is no literal interspersal of consciousness. There is, ultimately, no contacting or influencing a 'person', since a 'person' is the product of mind and does not literally exist. One can only imagine a 'person' and imagine this or that influence - all within a given mind. An understanding of the place of concepts is required to make sense of this. We have, of course, been around this block before, and will likely not see eye-to-eye. Please have the last word, should you wish. Sincerely, Scott. #89883 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How what we do affects others (or doesn't) TGrand458@... In a message dated 9/7/2008 3:53:33 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: I don't think anyone is saying that thoughts about a conceptual person cannot influence subsequent consciousness. What I'm saying is that these thoughts remain within a given 'sphere' (conventionally speaking) - there is no literal interspersal of consciousness. There is, ultimately, no contacting or influencing a 'person', since a 'person' is the product of mind and does not literally exist. One can only imagine a 'person' and imagine this or that influence - all within a given mind. An understanding of the place of concepts is required to make sense of this. Hi Scott, Phil, All... The above seems to go from a discussion of "consciousness influences" to a discussion of the "existence or not of a person." I am not addressing the latter here. Consciousness is comprised of the object, sense base, and corresponding conscious experience. When someone sees "my" form, "their" consciousness is being influenced/altered by that form. Likewise, when "they" comprehend the meaning of "my" speech, "their" consciousness is being influenced by that as well. When one stream flows into another, both streams are altered in accordance with all the conditions that come into play. Consciousness is the same deal. TG #89884 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 5:10 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi all, Here is a little more of the Visum. Chapter XX thread. Sorry again for the delay - no excuses this time. I won't attempt any comments on the text at this stage. BTW, the 89 kinds of consciousness are listed in the appendix to Nynatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, but can anyone tell me where they are listed in the Visuddhimagga? Thanks. Ken H [(b) CONSCIOUSNESS-BORN MATERIALITY] 30. Also as regards the consciousness-born kinds, the analysis should be understood as thus" (1) consciousness, (2) what is originated by consciousness, (3) what has consciousness as its condition, (4) what is originated by nutriment that has consciousness as its condition, (5) what is originated by temperature that has consciousness as its condition. 31. Herein, (1) 'Consciousness' is the 89 kinds of consciousness. Among these Consciousness thirty two, And twenty six, and nineteen too, Are reckoned to give birth to matter, Postures, also intimation; Sixteen kinds of consciousness Are reckoned to give birth to none. As regards the sense sphere, thirty-two consciousnesses, namely, the eight profitable consciousnesses ((1)-(8)), the twelve unprofitable ((22)-(33)), the ten functional, excluding the mind element ((71)-(80)), and the two direct knowledge consciousnesses as profitable and functional, give rise to materiality, to postures and to intimation. The twenty-six consciousnesses, namely the ten of the fine-material sphere ((9(-(13)), ((81)-(85)) and the eight of the immaterial sphere ((14)-(17), (86) -(89)) excluding the resultant [in both cases], and the eight supramundane ((18) -(21)), (66)-(69)), give rise to materiality, to postures, but not to intimation. The nineteen consciousnesses, namely the ten life-continuum consciousnesses in the sense sphere ((41) - (49)), (56), the five in the fine-material sphere (57) - (61), the three mind elements ((39), (55), (70), and the one resultant mind consciousness element without root cause and accompanied by joy (40), give rise to joy only, not to postures or to intimation. The sixteen consciousnesses, namely, the two sets of five consciousnesses ((34) - (38)), ((50) - (54)), the rebirth-linking consciousnesses of all beings, the death consciousness of those whose cankers are destroyed, and the four immaterial resultant consciousnesses ((62) - (65)), do not give rise to materiality or to postures or to intimation. And those herein that do give rise to materiality and do not do so at the instance of their presence or at the instant of their dissolution, for consciousness is weak then. But it is strong at the instant of arising. Consequently it originates materiality then with the prenascent physical basis as its support. #89885 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Fwd: Sudden Insight In My Dream sukinderpal Dear Rinze, Thank you for your post. Sorry for taking so long to respond. I hope you didn’t get the impression that I ignored, didn’t read or forgot about your letter. I thought about it but just didn’t get a chance until now, to write. You wrote: ======== Thankyou for troubling to respond in detail. In a discussion, we cannot solely use Paramatha Dhammas, but have to cloak it in concepts, in order to convey what is being said. This you will understand. Hence we use personal pronouns, and various other similes, that would make things clear to the reader or listener. Lord Buddha related the `Abhidhamma' to His mother in the Heavenly abodes, and to no other did He mention it, not even to Ven. Ananda His librarian, but only to His chief disciple Ven. Sariputta. This too is a very significant aspect. Moreover, nearly all those, who realized the Dhamma in that period, listened to the Dhamma as expounded by Lord Buddha in the Suttas. IMO, the Suttas must have served as the `funnel' to the Abhidhamma, that leaves nothing to be said, but to be seen by the Eye of Dhamma. The genius in Lord Buddha is, His mode of Instructions, which He used to the utmost, in expounding the Dhamma, even to His most ardent critic of His time. So much so that, they feared confrontation, afraid of being `converted'. Of course, He had the power of sensing those in need and tweaked their minds, just at the right place and time, with the appropriate phrases. And the similes He used, brought out the Dhamma He was putting across. For instance, when He was being chased by Angulimala to cut His finger, Angulimala asks Lord Buddha to stop. Lord Buddha simply said, "I have stopped, it's you who should stop!" On another occasion, passing by a farmer in a paddy field, the farmer tells Lord Buddha, to work like him in a paddy field in order to reap a harvest. Lord Buddha said that He has done so and that He is reaping what he sowed (I can't remember the exact words). Yet another occasion, when Lord Buddha was going on His arms rounds Bahiya requested thrice a `kamatahan'. Lord Buddha said that this was not the time, but on the third time, He simply said, "Bahiya, in the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, only the heard, in the sensed, only the sensed and in the cognized, there is only what is cognized." Thinking along those lines they arrived at the higher attainments. Fortunately for them their Paramis were already in `place', that conditioned their minds, to arrive at that attainment. What appears is that He was provoking us to think. He did not teach the Paramatha Dhammas to them, inspite of the fact that, He must have sensed that their minds were just right for Awakening! The Suttas is full of such instances where He directed our thoughts ( how to think / in which direction) that bridged the gap to the Higher Dhammas. Don't you think so, Sukin? Sukin: I am not quite sure what the point is that you are making in the first part of the above. I don’t know the details of the background history only that Abhidhamma was taught particularly to the Buddha’s mother while she was in one of the deva realms, and that the time then, was limited. Perhaps this is because there were other audiences as well, but for some reason the Buddha decided that he must give a comprehensive exposition of the Dhamma to them. It is understandable then that the way the Dhamma was explained *had* to be different from what was taught to individuals and particular groups in context, at other times, in the human realm and elsewhere. As you say, those who were the intended audience of the Buddha, they all had good parami and the Buddha knew this. Indeed he knew exactly how to best get the point across to each of them, so I agree with you that some of those people didn’t need to hear about Paramattha dhammas. The reference to conventional situations and similes did not condition ‘thinking’ with wrong view, unlike the audience of today, who can’t or won’t look at the right place. In the case of those like Angulimala and Bahiya, suttamaya panna was quickly followed by cintamayapanna and this by bhavanamaya panna, including vipassana nanas, which then lead almost immediately to magga and phala. This particular audience of the Buddha however, did not insist on reflecting upon conventional reality, and had they been given the exposition by way khandha, dhatu, ayatana or paramattha dhamma, it most certainly would not have conditioned doubt to arise, even if they may at first be somewhat confused due to not being familiar with the particular terminology. Once however, they were told say, that “seeing” is vinnanana khandha, everything would fall immediately in place and they would become enlightened instantly. In other words, unlike people of today, they would never resist reference to khandha, dhatu, paramattha dhamma etc. Today’s audience in disagreeing with the Abhidhamma, insist that conventional realities *exhibit* characteristics to be known, for example, that mountains could be studied and seen as being impermanent, suffering and non-self. Or else they believe that breath or posture as ‘conceived’ by them, these when attended to can lead ultimately to insight, enlightenment. The Buddha’s direct audience knew exactly the difference between concept and reality never confusing one for the other; they could easily therefore be given teachings by way of conventional example. Today’s audience, let alone knowing the distinction, their insistence on a formal practice whereby concepts of time, place, posture and particular object become all important, this being exactly due to wrong view, causes them to move further and further away from the intended goal. Rinze, I am not sure if I have answered your question. Please ask again if you think that I haven’t. Metta, Sukin #89886 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 6:44 pm Subject: May the Dhamma be with you! truth_aerator Dear Sukinder and all, >--- Sukinder wrote: > Thankyou for troubling to respond in detail. In a discussion, we > cannot solely use Paramatha Dhammas, but have to cloak it in > concepts, in order to convey what is being said. This you will > understand. Hence we use personal pronouns, and various other > similes, that would make things clear to the reader or listener. > >R: Lord Buddha related the `Abhidhamma' to His mother in the Heavenly > abodes, and to no other did He mention it, not even to Ven. Ananda > His librarian, but only to His chief disciple Ven. Sariputta. This > too is a very significant aspect. 1st) It is funny how this story of him teaching Abh to the Devas and his mother isn't found in the main Suttas. 2nd) In DN16, Parinibbana sutta he has said that there was only 2 times when his body emitted rays. 1st on the eve of awakening, 2nd on the eve of PariNibbana. This refutes the story of his body emitting rays when he was contemplating Patthana. "49. "There are two occasions, Ananda, when the skin of the Tathagata appears exceedingly clear and radiant. Which are these two? The night, Ananda, when the Tathagata becomes fully enlightened in unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment, and the night when the Tathagata comes to his final passing away into the state of Nibbana in which no element of clinging remains. These, Ananda, are the two occasions on which the skin of the Tathagata appears exceedingly clear and radiant." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html If we are going to believe these accounts regarding Theravadin Abh, and the story about Vissudhimagga full of miracles, why not also believe that: Nagarjuna found the advanced teachings of the Buddha from a serpent realm. And that Venerable Asanga who was a master meditator spoke with future Buddha-to-be Maitreya in Tusita Heaven and brough his teachings to us? Maybe we should study "Perfection of wisdom" sutras? Perfect Wisdom, that's awesome, isn't it? :) >R: Moreover, nearly all those, who realized the Dhamma in that >period, listened to the Dhamma as expounded by Lord Buddha in the >Suttas. I agree Rinzee. Best wishes and MAY THE DHAMMA BE WITH YOU! Alex #89887 From: "nichiconn" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 7:25 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nichiconn Hey, KenH - > BTW, the 89 kinds of consciousness are listed in the appendix to > Nynatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, but can anyone tell me where they > are listed in the Visuddhimagga? Thanks. > Does your book have a Table III: "Consciousness Aggregate" ? I think that's the one you mean. peace, connie #89888 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] I will die ajahnjose My Dear Nina and Sarah, I love your writting about death, it is what I am doing every moment now, living the dharma at this moment and I am ready mentally and at peace with my very near future. Metta. Ajahn Jose signature Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose --- On Sun, 9/7/08, sarah abbott wrote: From: sarah abbott Subject: Re: [dsg] I will die To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 8:39 PM Dear Nina, --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Thank you for Simon's story. But now he may have an opportunity to listen to some Dhamma explanations by you, he still has a chance, and may not have another chance, except when you meet him at the Bay. ... S: So many conditions at work. It depends whether we meet, whether he has any interest to listen or discuss the Dhamma. .... Momentary death: I am so impressed by the Visuddhimagga texts on this subject: like rebirth-consciousne ss following upon dying consciousness; rebirth-consciousne ss does not come from anywhere nor does it go anywhere and this is true for each citta. .... S: Yes, death now all the time and only ever the present citta. We can all benefit from the reminders at least. ... N:> I liked the last posting of BE AWARE OF THE RIGHT OBJECT AT THE RIGHT TIME, best. This is good: .... S: I would have preferred the emphasis to be on understanding rather than awareness as the" 'aim or goal' in the beginning, the middle and the end - for worldlings and Ariyans alike." Of course, satipatthana or such sati as describes, implies right understanding, but I think it's a question of emphasis. Metta, Sarah ======= #89889 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 9:58 pm Subject: no e-card from no where! gazita2002 Hello dhamma friends, if theres no one then it must be true that there is no where and therefor no e-card. having lots of opportunity to listen to dhamma and to read dhamma books as I hang around in Bangkok. Dont like the city but keep reminding myself that this is certainly an excellant chance to spend time 'dhamma-ing' Sorry to the purists of the language for that but cant think of a better word right now. Have found the Siam Society library not far from where I am staying, and it has quite a few Pali Text Society books so when its open adn I feel inclined I go there to read. However, there seems to be a Battle Royale going on - no, not the political situation here at present - I'm talking about the objects of the mind. Even knowing the benefits of listening and reading dhamma, there is constantly this restlessness and desire to be somewhere else, or a desire to know more dhamma than I currently do blah, blah, blah! There certainly is no controlling dhammas as they arise and fall away. I can imagine that some people would suggest doing a little meditation to control the thoughts but I dont think that is the way out of samsara. Knowing that only right understanding of present moment realities, understanding that knows nothing can be controlled cos its arisen and gone already. Fleeting moments, sooo difficult to know, it requires lots of listening and deeply contemplating the Buddhas teaching, abd right understanding. Which brings me back to where I started. Lots of opportunities to listen, read, contemplate BUT not the right conditions arise to 'take those opportunities'. I remember Ven Dhammadharo saying about our excuses to not listen etc "its too hot; its too cold; I'm too hungry; I'm too tired blah, blah, blah. Only if the conditions are right will right understanding arise and thus develop, and conditions are uncontrollable. Whew! thats probably the longest post I've ever written 'off the cuff' Patience, courage and good cheer, azita - by name only - there is no azita :-) #89890 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 10:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] I will die sarahprocter... Dear Ven Yanatharo (Ajahn Jose), --- On Mon, 8/9/08, Ajahn Jose wrote: >My Dear Nina and Sarah, I love your writting about death, it is what I am doing every moment now, living the dharma at this moment and I am ready mentally and at peace with my very near future. Metta. Ajahn Jose .... S: Thank you for your kind comment and helpful reminder for us all. It is the Buddha's teaching - to remind us that death may come at any time and in the sense of the momentariness of experiences now, it does come at every moment. I'm very glad to hear that you are "living the dharma at this moment" and feel so at peace. There really only ever is this moment now to be mindful and to understand what life is - a transitory experience which is inherently unsatisfactory and cannot be prevented from arising by anyone. I think the following suttas give us good reminders about such mindfulness now: 1. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn03/sn03.025.than.html "Like massive boulders, mountains pressing against the sky, moving in from all sides, crushing the four directions, so aging and death come rolling over living beings: noble warriors, priests, merchants, workers, outcastes, & scavengers. They spare nothing. They trample everything. Here elephant troops can hold no ground, nor can chariots or infantry, nor can a battle of wits or wealth win out. So a wise person, seeing his own good, steadfast, secures confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha. One who practices the Dhamma in thought, word, & deed, receives praise here on earth and after death rejoices in heaven." **** 2. AN, Book of Sixes, ix (19), Mindfulness of Death (PTS transl. by E.M. Hare): "Once when the Exalted One was staying in the Brick Hall at Naadika, he addressed the monks, saying: 'Monks.' 'Lord,' they replied; and the Exalted One said: 'Monks, mindfulness of death, when made become, made to increase, is very fruitful, great in weal, merging in the deathless, having ghe deathless as consummation (pariyosaanaa). Monks, make mindfulness of death become more!' And when he had spoken thus, a monk said to him: 'I, lord, make mindfulness of death become.' 'How so, monk?' 'Herein, lord, such is my thought: Were I day and night to abide mindful of the Exalted One's word, much would be done by me - thus, lord, I make mindfulness of death become.' And another said: "I too, lord, make mindfulness become.' 'How so, monk?' 'Herein, lord, such is my thought: Were I day-long to abide mindful of the Exalted One's word, much would be done by me.....' And another said: 'Such is my thought: Were I to abide mindful just so long as I eat an alms-meal.....' And another: 'As I munch and swallow four or five morsels....' And another: 'As I munch and swallow only one morsel....' And another said: 'I too, lord, make mindfulness of death become.' 'How so, monk?' 'Lord, such is my thought: Were I to abide just so long as I breathe in and out or breathe out and in, mindful of the Exalted One's word, much would be done by me - thus, lord, I make mindfulness of death become.' And when he had thus spoken, the Exalted One said to the monks: 'Monks, the monk who makes mindfulness of death become thus: "Were I day and night to abide mindful......." or he who thinks thus: "Were I day-long to abide so..." or thinks: "As I eat an alms-meal...." or "Munch and swallow four or five morsels...... mindful of the Exalted One's word, much would be done by me" - those monks are said to live indolently; slackly they make mindfulness of death become for the destruction of the cankers. But the monk who makes mindfulness of death become thus: "Were I to abide mindful as I munch and swallow one morsel..."; and he who thinks thus: "Were I to abide mindful of the Exalted One's word as I breathe in and out or out and in, much would be done by me" - those monks are said to live earnestly; keenly they make mindfulness of death become for the destruction of the cankers. Wherefore, monks, train yourselves thus: We will live earnestly; keenly will we make mindfulness of death become for the destruction of the cankers. Train yourselves thus, monks.' " ***** S: May we all appreciate the value of wise reflection and the development of satipatthana at this very moment. Wishing you wise reflection, wisdom and joy in the Dhamma in this life and future lives, Bhante. Metta, Sarah ======= #89891 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 11:09 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Ken and all, KenH: "BTW, the 89 kinds of consciousness are listed in the appendix to Nynatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, but can anyone tell me where they are listed in the Visuddhimagga?" Larry: It is discussed in detail in chapter XIV paragraphs 81-124. If you don't have the book we posted this chapter and Nina gave extensive explanations in various emails. An index to these messages can be found at message 55332. No need to explain this whole thing but maybe you can remind us what this is all about. Larry #89892 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 11:40 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Dear Ken, If you look at the back of the Vis. as Connie said, you find all in Table III. But there is the classification of mind-element, etc. so you have to know what this means. Nina. Op 8-sep-2008, om 8:09 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > It is discussed in detail in chapter XIV paragraphs 81-124 #89893 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 11:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] I will die nilovg Venerable Yanatharo, I very much appreciate your attitude towards death, living the dhamma at this moment. We can learn from you. With great appreciation, Nina. Op 8-sep-2008, om 2:47 heeft Ajahn Jose het volgende geschreven: > My Dear Nina and Sarah, I love your writting about death, it is > what I am doing every moment now, living the dharma at this moment > and I am ready mentally and at peace with my very near future. > Metta. Ajahn Jose #89894 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] no e-card from no where! nilovg Dear Azita, I appreciate your post, do write again more of the same! I used to go to the Siam Society to look up texts and read over there. A good place. Nina. Op 8-sep-2008, om 6:58 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > Only if the conditions are right will right understanding > arise and thus develop, and conditions are uncontrollable. #89895 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? nilovg Op 5-sep-2008, om 23:17 heeft Tep het volgende geschreven: > I only learn that cetana (volition) conditions kamma, Nina. Bodily > pain is not a volition; so why can it condition kusala kamma? > Suffering and sickness do not cause kusala action; volition to develop > kusala is the condition for kusala kamma to arise, I think. > > If a vipaka could condition a new kamma to arise, and a vipaka of the > new kamma arose as the consequence, then that would become a perpetual > cycle. There would be no cessation of kamma. Therefore, a vipaka does > not condition another kamma; only volition does. That is my > understanding. > > The Buddha explained, "When, monks, by ceasing actions of body, > speech and mind, one touches liberation, this, monks, is called 'the > ceasing of kamma.' " He did not say that liberation meant ceasing of > vipaka. #89896 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 7, 2008 11:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? nilovg Dear Tep, by accident I sent a post not finished, but I looked up the Thai link of paccayas for you, to indicate that kamma is not the obly condition. Nina. #89897 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 4a sarahprocter... Dear Han, (Apologies for the delay. I know you and Nina discussed further anyway.) --- On Sat, 30/8/08, han tun wrote: Dear Sarah, Since you have mentioned my name in the report, I will have to say something. .... S: That's good! I should bring up your name more often:-). ..... >Han: Let me bring in the excerpt from Satipa.t.thaana sutta once again. (translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi) Quote: 4. “And how, bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu abide contemplating the body as a body? Here a bhikkhu, going to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty hut, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, and established mindfulness in front of him, ever mindful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’; or breathing out long, he understands: ‘I breathe out long.’ Breathing in short, he understands: ‘I breathe in short’; or breathing out short, he understands: “I breathe out short.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body [of breath]’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body [of breath].’ <....> End Quote. ------------ --------- --------- >Han: In the above instruction by the Buddha, nothing was mentioned by the Buddha about [If there's no understanding of sati and various realities now, what's the use of these suttas? Different realities are appearing now, they cannot be the same ones. We need to understand more about dhammas now.] .... S: Wouldn't you agree that actually there are only dhammas now and the suttas all point to 'dhammas now'? If so, surely whatever we read about has to point us back to an understanding and awareness now. So what can such understanding know? Only the various realities appearing now. When I read the Satipatthana Sutta, I think it is just these different realities that are being pointed to, according to different lifestyles and accumulations. We see that all possible realities (dhammas) are included - whether rupas or namas. Would you not agree? .... H:> Whoever mentioned that the suttas are useless without having the above requirements is like saying that the Buddha’s instructions are inadequate or not clear enough so that he/she must complement the Buddha’s instructions to arrive at the right teaching. .... S: This depends on how much dust we have in our eyes as others have pointed out. For some, just one sutta was enough. For most of us, the extra commentary, the Abhidhamma details and lots of discussion and questioning is very helpful. We need to delve deeper and deeper into terms such as 'dukkha' or 'satipatthana' to really understand what is meant by them, I find. ... H:> I do not think it is necessary for me to elaborate on the attributes of the Dhamma. The Buddha’s Teachings are always clear and complete. In SN 11. 3 Dhajagga Sutta, the Buddha said: no ce ma.m anussareyyaatha, atha dhamma.m anussareyyaatha: "svaakkhaato bhagavataa dhammo sandi.t.thiko akaaliko ehipassiko opanayiko paccatta.m veditabbo vi~n~nuuhii" ti. .... S: Yes, the dhamma is very clear and complete....for the wise to see. We need assistance to see it and this is what all the teachings are for. .... H:> If you cannot recollect me, then you should recollect the Dhamma thus: ‘The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.’ (translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi). .... S: So what exactly is the Dhamma? Not words and texts, but the truth about realities now which he taught for 45 years (thanks, Howard), because he knew how very deep and profound this teaching was. .... H:> Therefore, I bow down to someone who is more learned than the Buddha, and who sees the need to lay down some requirements to be able to understand and practice the Buddha’s Teachings! .... S: Ooh....I don't think so, Han. As you know, no one can ever be wiser than the Buddha! Anything wise that is said is the Buddha's teaching. Metta, Sarah ========= #89898 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 12:25 am Subject: Cut Craving! bhikkhu0 Friends: This World is Messed Up! The Buddha once told a deity: This world is suffering from Death, Troubled by ageing, decay and sickness, Wounded by the Dart of constant Craving ! Always is it burning with Desire & Lust... This world is addicted to Delight & Pleasure, Since dragged around by this urge, Craving must be cut, to break free from bondage and reach NibbÄ?na... Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 40 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html On Craving as the Cause of Suffering see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Craving_is_Pain.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_3_kinds_of_Craving.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_2nd_Noble_Truth_on_The_Cause_of_Sufferi\ ng.htm Cut Craving! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #89899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 1:52 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 10, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, It is helpful to see many aspects of akusala and of kusala. If one aspect does not help us at a particular moment, another aspect may be useful. Thinking of kamma and vipåka can help us to be more patient. When we hear an unpleasant sound and we have aversion, we should remember that the hearing of the unpleasant sound is the result (vipåka) of an unwholesome deed (akusala kamma) we performed. The hearing has been conditioned already and nobody can change it. Hearing experiences the unpleasant object just for a moment and then it falls away immediately, it does not stay. But we keep on thinking about vipåka with aversion and that is akusala. Whenever we have an unpleasant experience through one of the senses it is vipåkacitta. When we complain, for example, about hot weather, we are impatient, and we forget that the experience of heat through the bodysense is only vipåka, caused by kamma. When we are impatient, there is ignorance; ignorance covers up the truth. Right understanding sees the disadvantage of akusala , and that is the condition for the cultivation of kusala. Patience can be developed with regard to many seemingly unimportant events in our daily life. When we receive a gift such as a book we do not like, we should develop patience, for example, in thinking of the kindness of the giver. I had a cold and could therefore not wash my hair for many days. Khun Sujin reminded me to develop patience even with regard to this. I am inclined to overlook such facts, but are details not important? So many moments of our life pass unnoticed. Kusala citta and akusala citta condition our appearance, they condition different facial expressions. Is it not lack of consideration for others if we look sullen? If we remember this it can help us to please others, even when we feel tired. Our hostess in Anurådhapura always kept smiling, even when we had to wait a long time for a car. I see now more the value of thoughtfulness, also in small matters. When we are tired we usually have aversion. This is conditioned by attachment to our health, to our bodily wellbeing. We may think: ”Well, I can’t help having aversion, it is conditioned.” What kind of citta thinks in that way? Even though we say that aversion is conditioned we may still regard it as “my aversion” and then we make it into something very important. We make the fact of its being conditioned into an excuse for giving in to a bad mood. When the characteristic of aversion appears it can be known as only a reality, not self. ******* Nina. #89900 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 1:52 am Subject: Re: E-card from Bangkok - discussions with A.Sujin 4a hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for the reply. > > Han [quoting an excerpt from Satipa.t.thaana sutta]: In the above instruction by the Buddha, nothing was mentioned by the Buddha about [If there's no understanding of sati and various realities now, what's the use of these suttas? Different realities are appearing now, they cannot be the same ones. We need to understand more about dhammas now.] > S: Wouldn't you agree that actually there are only dhammas now and the suttas all point to 'dhammas now'? If so, surely whatever we read about has to point us back to an understanding and awareness now. So what can such understanding know? Only the various realities appearing now. When I read the Satipatthana Sutta, I think it is just these different realities that are being pointed to, according to different lifestyles and accumulations. We see that all possible realities (dhammas) are included - whether rupas or namas. Would you not agree? Han: You must be very much advanced than me! You see those which I do not see. When I read the Satipa.t.thaana sutta, I see a very simple and clear instruction by the Buddha: [Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’; or breathing out long, he understands: ‘I breathe out long.’ Breathing in short, he understands: ‘I breathe in short’; or breathing out short, he understands: “I breathe out short.’] and so on. While I am reading that sutta, I do not see any various realities appearing now, or do I realize that the suttas all point to ‘dhamma now.’ As I said, you must be very much advanced. ------------------------------ > > Han: Whoever mentioned that the suttas are useless without having the above requirements is like saying that the Buddha’s instructions are inadequate or not clear enough so that he/she must complement the Buddha’s instructions to arrive at the right teaching. > S: This depends on how much dust we have in our eyes as others have pointed out. For some, just one sutta was enough. For most of us, the extra commentary, the Abhidhamma details and lots of discussion and questioning is very helpful. We need to delve deeper and deeper into terms such as 'dukkha' or 'satipatthana' to really understand what is meant by them, I find. Han: The dust in my eyes must be very thick or my maana must be very strong. For me, the text of Satipa.t.thaana sutta as it is written is more than good enough. I do not need any assistance from other Tipitaka sources to understand the Satipa.t.thaana sutta. The Satipa.t.thaana sutta by itself is clear and complete like any other discourses by the Buddha. Please see below the attributes of the Dhamma that I had quoted. ------------------------------ > > Han: I do not think it is necessary for me to elaborate on the attributes of the Dhamma. The Buddha’s Teachings are always clear and complete. In SN 11. 3 Dhajagga Sutta, the Buddha said: no ce ma.m anussareyyaatha, atha dhamma.m anussareyyaatha: "svaakkhaato bhagavataa dhammo sandi.t.thiko akaaliko ehipassiko opanayiko paccatta.m veditabbo vi~n~nuuhii" ti. > S: Yes, the dhamma is very clear and complete.... for the wise to see. We need assistance to see it and this is what all the teachings are for. Han: My above response applies. (Please also see my next response below.) ----------------------------- > > Han: If you cannot recollect me, then you should recollect the Dhamma thus: ‘The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.’ (translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi). > S: So what exactly is the Dhamma? Not words and texts, but the truth about realities now which he taught for 45 years (thanks, Howard), because he knew how very deep and profound this teaching was. Han: Please remember that I had written to Nina that I am just a (pada parama), and so I will be able to see only what a (pada parama) can see. ------------------------------ Respectfully, Han #89901 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? nilovg Dear Tep, Op 5-sep-2008, om 23:17 heeft Tep het volgende geschreven: > I only learn that cetana (volition) conditions kamma, Nina. Bodily > pain is not a volition; so why can it condition kusala kamma? > Suffering and sickness do not cause kusala action; volition to develop > kusala is the condition for kusala kamma to arise, I think. ------- Vipaaka can condition kusala citta, akusala citta and even kamma. The condition here is natural strong dependence-condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya. Sarah gave you some examples. It is usueful to study the twentyfour classes of condiitons, that is why I gave you the link on the Thai site: When we have accumulated patience, it helps to face bodily pain with kusala citta and also understanding of the dhammas at that moment can arise. That is in itself kusala kamma, as Sarah also explained. Remember the Upanisaa sutta (Transcendental Dependent Arising, S.N. II) where it is said that suffering conditions faith, confidence (saddhaa). But this depends on one's accumulations of kusala. These can be a natural strong dependence-condition for kusala kamma arising today. ------- > > T: The Buddha explained, "When, monks, by ceasing actions of body, > speech and mind, one touches liberation, this, monks, is called 'the > ceasing of kamma.' " He did not say that liberation meant ceasing of > vipaka. ------- N: The arahat has reached the ceasing of kamma and thus there are no more conditions for rebirth. This text refers to the arahat. Nina. #89902 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 3:03 am Subject: Only for the Wise to See dhammanusarin Dear Sarah (and Han), - It is good to be reminded about sati-sampajanna & satipatthana, no matter how many times, again and again, since it is still very difficult to stay mindfully aware of the dhammas here and now. > S: Wouldn't you agree that actually there are only dhammas now and the suttas all point to 'dhammas now'? If so, surely whatever we read about has to point us back to an understanding and awareness now. So what can such understanding know? >Only the various realities appearing now. T: That was beautifully said, Sarah. As noted above, it is the same point repeatedly made by the various Buddhist authors, scholars, book publishers, meditators, retreat instructors, and Forest monks too. I absolutely agree with you and them, yet a more important point is whether we are ready for those dhammas appearing now; and if we are not, then how to get ready. >S: We need to delve deeper and deeper into terms such as 'dukkha' or 'satipatthana' to really understand what is meant by them, I find. ... When I read the Satipatthana Sutta, I think it is just these different realities that are being pointed to, according to different lifestyles and accumulations. We see that all possible realities (dhammas) are included - whether rupas or namas. the dhamma is very clear and complete.... for the wise to see. We need assistance to see it and this is what all the teachings are for. T: How do you "delve deeper" to get ready to see the dhammas, the way they really are? This "how to get ready" is still subjective, not verifiable, and not agreed upon outside the DSG's inner circle of the "wise". Tep === #89903 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How what we do affects others (or doesn't) egberdina Hi Scott, 2008/9/7 Scott : > Dear Phil, > > > Scott: In ultimate terms, neither I nor the other exist. In ultimate terms, ultimate terms do not exist. But it will always remain a fact that you have fathered your children. How you react to the enormity of this reality is your kamma. Denying what you have done is certainly one of the possibilities open to you, but I wouldn't congratulate anyone who believes they are getting away with deceiving themselves. It's a stupid business, putting children into the world who will all suffer and die. I've been there, and have done that. But in my books, denying that it happened is far more stupid. Cheers Herman #89904 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavio egberdina Hi Tep, 2008/9/7 Tep : > Hi Herman and Sarah, - > > I am interested in your following discussion. > >> Sarah: On the other-hand, for the wise, there may be wise attention > and the development of understanding following the kusala vipaka. All > that are experienced through the body-sense are various rupas, none > of them a 'body', none of them belonging to anyone. With such > understanding and detachment, there is kusala kamma. >> > > Herman: It seems to me that the accumulations that this explanation > relies upon certainly must belong to someone. Else, how do disembodied > accumulations lead to action, as you suggest? > .............. > > T: I think the dead-end that you are pointing at, Herman, results > from the ultimate viewpoint that is "beyond" the realities here and > now. So we will hear again that there are no pannatti or concepts in > the ultimate realities, or we may hear again that all concepts are > only "conventionally real" and ultimately there are no individual, no > action(no doing). > > How may the discussion be re-formulated such that the dead-end is > resolved? > Thank you for your effort to unlock the deadlock, Tep. I think your analysis is correct. There are those that talk about concepts and ultimate realities and no beings and no doings as though they are the teachings of the Buddha, and there are those who know full well that this is not the case. I think that in order to resolve the dead-end, it would be useful if all concerned stopped claiming the validity of a position on the basis that the Buddha said so. Because, as we find here, the Buddha seems to have lived for a thousand years, and has personally authored the huge disparity of conflicting views to be found in the Tipitaka and it's commentaries, spanning from 500BC to 500AD and beyond. It seems that more than anything, people lack their own insight into experience, but repeat things they do not know solely on the authority of others whose ultimate theories are beyond testing. If there is no fruit in the here and now for knowing what all these people are claiming to be the Ultimate Truth, then the Knowledge of the Ultimate Truth isn't worth a pinch of sh*t in my book. What do you think? Cheers Herman #89905 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 4:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavior? Vipaka & New Kamma .. egberdina Hi Sarah, 2008/9/7 sarah abbott : > Hi Tep(& Herman), > > S: As I said, patisandhi is just the first vipaka citta in life. It is followed by many more bhavanga cittas and vipaka cittas through the sense-doors. Each citta arises, decays and falls away. > .... > T:> 2. "Cetana is kamma" does not mean cetana is the same as kamma. We > know they are not. > ... > S: I'd put it more precisely this way: Kamma is actually cetana cetasika, but as cetana arises with every single citta, it is the cetana which accompanies kusala and akusala cittas only which can condition the results of kusala and akusala deeds committed through body, speech or mind. This cetana is accumulated so that it can bring about the results, either as vipaka cittas or the rupas of the body as discussed. > MN 101 "So I said to them, 'But friends, do you know that you existed in the past, and that you did not not exist?' "'No, friend.' "'And do you know that you did evil actions in the past, and that you did not not do them?' "'No, friend.' "'And do you know that you did such-and-such evil actions in the past?' "'No, friend.' At least the Niganthas were honest :-) Cheers Herman #89906 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 5:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Warnings .... No Sarah, no Ken H ... egberdina Hi Sarah, 2008/9/7 sarah abbott : > Dear Alex, > > ... > S: If we walk into a tree, a wall or a body, what is actually experienced is hardness through the body-sense, surely? The hardness is just hardness, no matter what terms or labels are given to it afterwards. So the hardness is rupa khandha. > > I'm still trying to understand what you mean by trees as being included in sanna khandha? > > Which doorway are such trees experienced through? What is really experienced? > The experience described as walking into a tree covers all sense modalities and spans past, present and future. But what on earth is a doorway? Have you ever met one? Should you be talking about them as though you know them? And please, do tell us, what is really experienced, if walking into a tree doesn't adequately describe it? Cheers Herman #89908 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 5:34 am Subject: A Pinch of Gold dhammanusarin Hello Herman (Sarah and others ), - The motivation that was a driver of my participation in this deadlock is that I see truth in both of your and Sarah's viewpoints about what truths are found in the ultimate sense and what are seen in the real- world sense ( alternatively called "conventional truths"). Reformulating the discussion is not a compromise but it requires understanding of the common truth in the seemingly opposite viewpoints. By the way can you tell me a little about your "book" and where I may find it? =================================== Hi Tep, 2008/9/7 Tep : > Hi Herman and Sarah, - > > I am interested in your following discussion. > >> Sarah: On the other-hand, for the wise, there may be wise attention > and the development of understanding following the kusala vipaka. All > that are experienced through the body-sense are various rupas, none > of them a 'body', none of them belonging to anyone. With such > understanding and detachment, there is kusala kamma. >> > > Herman: It seems to me that the accumulations that this explanation > relies upon certainly must belong to someone. Else, how do disembodied > accumulations lead to action, as you suggest? > .............. > > T: I think the dead-end that you are pointing at, Herman, results > from the ultimate viewpoint that is "beyond" the realities here and > now. So we will hear again that there are no pannatti or concepts in > the ultimate realities, or we may hear again that all concepts are > only "conventionally real" and ultimately there are no individual, no > action(no doing). > > How may the discussion be re-formulated such that the dead-end is > resolved? > Thank you for your effort to unlock the deadlock, Tep. I think your analysis is correct. There are those that talk about concepts and ultimate realities and no beings and no doings as though they are the teachings of the Buddha, and there are those who know full well that this is not the case. I think that in order to resolve the dead-end, it would be useful if all concerned stopped claiming the validity of a position on the basis that the Buddha said so. Because, as we find here, the Buddha seems to have lived for a thousand years, and has personally authored the huge disparity of conflicting views to be found in the Tipitaka and it's commentaries, spanning from 500BC to 500AD and beyond. It seems that more than anything, people lack their own insight into experience, but repeat things they do not know solely on the authority of others whose ultimate theories are beyond testing. If there is no fruit in the here and now for knowing what all these people are claiming to be the Ultimate Truth, then the Knowledge of the Ultimate Truth isn't worth a pinch of sh*t in my book. What do you think? Cheers Herman ====================== T: There is no questions that it would help if "all concerned" (you, Sarah, me ...) stopped claiming 'Only this is right according to the Buddha', like the ideal news reporter who writes about what s/he witnesses as truths/facts without giving personal opinions or biased preferences. (I have recently been working on that ideal quality myself.) It doesn't matter "what all these people are claiming to be the Ultimate Truth" since they cannot change the truths of the Buddha's discovery by their claim. What is more important, and really matters, is that we clearly understand what the truths are. If your discussion with them and me helps you see the truths more clearly (eventhough, oftentimes they and I may not see the truths), then still it is worth more than a pinch of gold to continue to discuss the Dhamma. Peace, Tep === #89909 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pinch of Gold egberdina Hi Tep, 2008/9/8 Tep : > Hello Herman (Sarah and others ), - > > By the way can you tell me a little about your "book" and where I may > find it? :-) My book is my past. You cannot find or read my book, but I can tell you about it. In the same way, I cannot read your book, or anyone else's, but people can share as they see fit. And there are writers here who share that they have no book!! Can you believe it? Cheers Herman #89910 From: "jessicamui" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 6:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Questions regarding Ignorance jessicamui --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Jessica (and Han at end), > Op 2-sep-2008, om 19:00 heeft jessicamui het volgende geschreven: > > > If ignorance is NOT associated with the Kusala citta, ie. when doing > > dana. In that sense, any "uninstructed worldlings" does have > > ignorance in their mind moment(s) during the process of doing Kusala > > deeds ? > -------- > N: The kusala citta that has objective dana is not accompanied by > ignorance. It is accompanied by alobha, adosa, saddhaa, confidence in > kusala, sati, hiri, ottappa. But while one is giving, and for example > sitting in the temple, there are also likely to be akusala cittas in > between, with attachment or conceit. Akusala cittas are accompanied > by ignorance. > ------- Dear Nina and Han, Thank you very much for your reply. I hope that you'll be patient with my further question regarding this topic. When I read my original question, I found that I made one mistake in the typing. The proper question is that if an "uninstructed worlding" is doing a good deed, s/he doesn't have ignorance in some of the mind moments according to the fact that "ignorance doesn't arise with kusla citta". But if the definition of Ignorance is not knowing the 4 noble truth, dependent origination, etc, then for an uninstructed worlding, they won't know the Dhamma through making dana. So how can they not be "ignorant" for any moment ? May be I'm mixing up the definitions/concepts. Could someone please clarify ? Thanks a lot ! Jessica. #89911 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] no e-card from no where! upasaka_howard Hi, Azita - In a message dated 9/8/2008 12:59:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: Hello dhamma friends, if theres no one then it must be true that there is no where and therefor no e-card. having lots of opportunity to listen to dhamma and to read dhamma books as I hang around in Bangkok. Dont like the city but keep reminding myself that this is certainly an excellant chance to spend time 'dhamma-ing' Sorry to the purists of the language for that but cant think of a better word right now. Have found the Siam Society library not far from where I am staying, and it has quite a few Pali Text Society books so when its open adn I feel inclined I go there to read. However, there seems to be a Battle Royale going on - no, not the political situation here at present - I'm talking about the objects of the mind. Even knowing the benefits of listening and reading dhamma, there is constantly this restlessness and desire to be somewhere else, or a desire to know more dhamma than I currently do blah, blah, blah! There certainly is no controlling dhammas as they arise and fall away. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Noticing desire and the discomfort produced by it is a condition that can contribute to its lessening. -------------------------------------------- I can imagine that some people would suggest doing a little meditation to control the thoughts but I dont think that is the way out of samsara. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Recollecting the Buddha and his teachings and seeing their application at all times, acting morally by guarding the senses, and meditating on the body and breath etc were all taught by the Buddha, all serve to calm and clear the mind, and, together, do lead along a trail away from samsara. A habit of mindfulness of body and breath in particular enables the "seeing" of tensing up that signals reactive emotions of aversion and craving at very early stages at which the tanha is very weak and may be cut off merely by seeing it and noting its painful nature, and this directly supports right effort and cultivation of calm and wisdom. This, I believe, is Dhamma teaching, and it is directly verifiable in my experience. ----------------------------------------------- Knowing that only right understanding of present moment realities, understanding that knows nothing can be controlled cos its arisen and gone already. Fleeting moments, sooo difficult to know, it requires lots of listening and deeply contemplating the Buddhas teaching, abd right understanding. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: In my experience, it is more useful to drop this theory and thinking and instead pay attention to what is happening in the moment. ----------------------------------------------- Which brings me back to where I started. Lots of opportunities to listen, read, contemplate BUT not the right conditions arise to 'take those opportunities'. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The opportunity to see and relinquish is always available. --------------------------------------------- I remember Ven Dhammadharo saying about our excuses to not listen etc "its too hot; its too cold; I'm too hungry; I'm too tired blah, blah, blah. Only if the conditions are right will right understanding arise and thus develop, and conditions are uncontrollable. Whew! thats probably the longest post I've ever written 'off the cuff' Patience, courage and good cheer, azita - by name only - there is no azita :-) ============================ With metta, Howard #89912 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 9/5/2008 8:30:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: Hello Howard, - How is your peaceful vacation? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks.:-) It was very nice, but a strain, as I did a LOT of driving, and on Saturday through some very heavy rains and winds - the remnants of a tropical storm. ----------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Tep - > >==================================== The link is incorrect. Use the link _http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/sumed.php_ (http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/sumed.php) to get to the site that gives a list of talks, and then click on the 4th one in the list (entitled "What's So Important"). With metta, Howard ........................ T: Thank you very much for your contribution, Howard. I checked the link and found that it worked. What is the most important thing do you find in this Dhamma talk? Can you summarize it using no more than three sentences? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I haven't had the chance to read it yet, Tep. But I doubt my usefully synopsizing anything in only three sentences. (The Buddha could so it for "reality" with the tilakkhana, but I'm not as adept! LOL!) ------------------------------------------------- I think the most important idea of this talk is : Whenever one discerns with awareness what's going now, there is no involvement with extreme views or duality of the sakkayaditthi (personal identity): no sankhara. Hence there is no attachment as to what is importance in one's life, responsibilty, rightness or wrongness, and 'I must do this' or that. And that's liberation from suffering. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: That sounds like good reading, Tep. I'll get to it. ------------------------------------------------ Thanks. Tep ========================== With metta, Howard #89913 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important dhammanusarin Hi Howard, my good friend, - It is nice to see you're back. > > How is your peaceful vacation? > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thanks.:-) It was very nice, but a strain, as I did a LOT of driving, > and on Saturday through some very heavy rains and winds - the remnants of a > tropical storm. > ----------------------------------------- T: Sounds like a typical vacation in the U.S. where much of the time is spent on the road. It was great that you did not "get directly into" a storm or a hurricane ! ................ > TEp; > I think the most important idea of this talk is : > Whenever one discerns with awareness what's going now, there is no > involvement with extreme views or duality of the sakkayaditthi > (personal identity): no sankhara. Hence there is no attachment as > to what is importance in one's life, responsibilty, rightness or > wrongness, and 'I must do this' or that. And that's liberation from suffering. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That sounds like good reading, Tep. I'll get to it. > ------------------------------------------------ The talk is on an audio MP3 file, Howard. It is unsually long, and sometimes he was a little bit beating around the bush, recollecting from his memory. Sarah seems to be concerned with his not-so-precise descriptions of the key Dhammas. Of course, it is because he is not a "book-worm". But his talk reflects on him as an extremely kind, exceptionally responsible, and intelligent teacher (Ajahn). Tep === #89914 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 9/8/2008 11:12:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: Hi Howard, my good friend, - It is nice to see you're back. ========================== I just tried to open the file but could not. My security system said it is corrupted. I'll just have to pass on this. With metta, Howard #89915 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Pinch of Gold dhammanusarin Hi Herman, - You wrote : >Herman: > > My book is my past. You cannot find or read my book, but I can tell > you about it. In the same way, I cannot read your book, or anyone > else's, but people can share as they see fit. And there are writers > here who share that they have no book!! Can you believe it? > Ah, that's pretty subtle. In Thailand where I lived as a child, I was taught about the Hell guardian (somewhat like a warden of a jail, maybe) who keeps "books" that record all people's good and bad deeds while they are living. He will read to them the content of their books at the time they die. It was scarry enough to discourage the poor kid from doing very bad things. Don't worry. The writers who have no books here, still have their books with the Hell guardian. He may not understand the no-self theory. ;-)) Tep === #89916 From: "Tep" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 11:42 am Subject: Re: Old kamma & present behavior? dhammanusarin Dear Nina (and Sarah), - T: I wrote to you earlier : > I only learn that cetana (volition) conditions kamma, Nina. Bodily > pain is not a volition; so why can it condition kusala kamma? > Suffering and sickness do not cause kusala action; volition to develop > kusala is the condition for kusala kamma to arise, I think. ------- Nina: Vipaaka can condition kusala citta, akusala citta and even kamma. The condition here is natural strong dependence-condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya. Sarah gave you some examples. It is usueful to study the twentyfour classes of condiitons, that is why I gave you the link on the Thai site: T: If vipaka could condition new kamma, then it would mean that results can again become "the causes of new results, and so ad infinitum" as Ven. Nyanatiloka explained in the quote below. ................................... "The term 'kamma' never comprises the result of action, as most people in the West, misled by Theosophy, wish this term to be understood. Kamma is wholesome or unwholesome volitional action and kamma-vipaka is the result of action. "There are some who consider every happening, even our new wholesome and unwholesome actions, as the result of our prenatal kamma. In other words, they believe that the results again become the causes of new results, and so ad infinitum. Thus they are stamping Buddhism as fatalism; and they will have to come to the conclusion that, in this case, our destiny can never be influenced or changed, and no deliverance ever be attained. [endquote] Fundamentals of Buddhism. Four Lectures by Nyanatiloka Mahathera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanatiloka/wheel394.html ...................................... > > T: The Buddha explained, "When, monks, by ceasing actions of body, > speech and mind, one touches liberation, this, monks, is called 'the > ceasing of kamma.' " He did not say that liberation meant ceasing of > vipaka. ------- N: The arahat has reached the ceasing of kamma and thus there are no more conditions for rebirth. This text refers to the arahat. T: The text explains the Third Noble Truth that is the cessation of kamma through eradication of the origin of dukkha. This Noble Truth is to be realized by a Noble Disciple. Tep === #89917 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 11:46 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities nilovg Hi Howard, I appreciate it that you still took time to answer my mail just before leaving. Op 5-sep-2008, om 13:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm grabbing a few minutes while getting ready to leave on vacation. > > There is an ongoing, integrated, stream of interrelated namas > and rupas WITHIN WHICH stream there is a repeated taking of the > dhammas > within that same stream, dhammas present and remembered, as "Alex". > That stream, a > dynamic aggregate, is "Alex". And that knowing is "Alex knowing Alex." > There are other streams as well, ones we call "Nina" and "Howard," for > example, and within each of these there is knowing of themselves, > of each > other, and also of "Alex". Streams interact. ... > --------------------------------------------------------- N: I understand what you mean. You are concerned that I do not do justice to the fact that individual accumulations are different, say, those of Alex, those of yours. You prefer the term streams that interact to express this. > ------------- > Quote N: I could not point to one > citta; this is Alex, it has fallen away already. > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > One citta (a notion I take exception to - for there are no gaps in > consciousness) is not Alex. There is a trans-temporal stream of > mental and > physical phenomena that is viewed as a unity called "Alex," and is > (falsely) thought > of as an individual phenomena with own-being. But the phenomena > present in > that stream at one single instant, namely consciousness, a specific > object of > that consciousness, and a variety of supportive mental factors and > operations > is not "Alex," any more than "the Ganges at this very zero-duration > instant" > with the particular flotsam and jetsam that happen to be present in > it where > and how they are now disposed is the Ganges. It is just a snapshot > - an > artificial stopping and "discretizing" of what is unstoppable. We > may SAY "This is > the Ganges," but it really is just a "Ganges moment." -------- N: I understand your comparison with a river, and that there are just moments we call this or that person. The question is, how can we realize such moments, one at a time, and really be convinced of the truth? In the past you emphasized rightly the operation of conditions and you quoted a sutta: when this is, that is. It is short and concise in the suttas, but we need more details. We need the Patthaana with all details about the twentyfour classes of conditions. Otherwise we just say: it is conditioned in a complex way, but how? Also the Visuddhimagga is of great help. We learn by the Patthaana that each citta that falls away is a condition for the immediately succeeding one, this is proximity- condition, anantara-paccaya. Anantara means: no interval. You also rightly mentioned that there are no gaps between cittas. The rebirth-consciousness immediately succeeds the dying- consciousness of the previous life. In the previous life you were not Howard, you were another being. But since each citta is succeeded by the next one, inclinations, kammas of the past are accumulated to the present life. Although the present life is conditioned by the past life, we should remember what the Visuddhimagga so aptly expresses: 'There is no person who travels from the past life to the present life'. And the verse I posted recently in my Visuddhimagga study: 'States [dhammas] originate from [other] states as causes; no self exists here, nor another. As causes, constituents, conditions, it is states that produce states.' Thus, dhammas produce other dhammas. This refers to all the preceding passages in the Vis. about the links that are kamma (ignorance etc.) producing vipaaka (consciousness, as rebirth-consciousness etc.). Dhammas are producing dhammas, there is no place for a person. What are these dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa. When thinking of a whole of a person it does not help me to become detached from the idea of self. When beginning to understand that whatever appears is a mere dhamma will lead to detachment. The Visuddhimagga does justice to the accumulations of different beings, the different kammas producing different results in different planes of existence. You need not fear that this is overlooked. Citta that arises does so because of different conditions, but it can still be said: it comes from nowhere and it does not go anywhere, to explain its momentariness. I find the idea of momentary birth and death that can be applied to each citta helpful. Also now we can say: no person travels from the preceding moment to this very moment. You asked about daily life with the example of car accident, hospital, the law, etc. I understand that you are wondering how to apply 'no person' to the situations in daily life. Also the arahat thinks of situations, but not with akusala, such as we usually do. For us: we can learn to think of situations with more understanding, with metta and karuna. It is normal to think of people and situations. Thinking is real, it is conditioned. It is beneficial to know what types of citta are thinking of this or that situation, we are likely to be forgetful of this. Person or situation are not ultimate realities, as you also know. This does not mean at all that we have to refrain from thinking about them. We lead our normal life. If we keep on wondering about such dilemmas as you gave before, we will always continue to think with doubt: how can this be? Why not beginning to study the present moment including thinking of dilemmas (a seemingly contradiction of awareness of paramatthas and living in the world of thinking)? More understanding of nama and rupa is always beneficial. Nina. P.S. I thought such a long drive would be strenuous. #89918 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:39 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/8/2008 2:48:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I appreciate it that you still took time to answer my mail just before leaving. ----------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. :-) Nina, I have skipped copying your post here, as it is lengthy. My only reply is that aside from your inclination towards what I see as a discrete, "separatist" perspective on the flow of phenomena, I found nothing in your reply to disagree with! :-) ======================= With metta, Howard #89919 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 2:56 pm Subject: Re: no e-card from no where! kenhowardau Hi Azita, Thanks for the lovely non-e-card. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello dhamma friends, > > if theres no one then it must be true that there is no where and > therefor no e-card. Another thing that's worth thinking about - although it's nowhere near as pleasant - is what the world would be like if there *were* someone, somewhere and some e-card etc. All our beloved friends, places and things to do would be taken from us one day - no one lives forever. And other things - wars, politics, religions - really would be worth getting angry and defensive about. Yuk, who wants to do that? Give me ultimate reality any day! Ken H <. . .> > Patience, courage and good cheer, > azita - by name only - there is no azita :-) > #89920 From: "colette" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 1:22 pm Subject: Change ksheri3 Yes Change is an interesting topic. Change is considered the definition of the Death CArd in the Major Arcana in hermetic societies. I like the views that Sarah and Nina have placed although Nina is known for her short replies and there's nothing we can do about that. I was hoping to hear to more of her concept of this eventual aspect of life. It is a good view to take toodles, colette #89921 From: "colette" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 1:41 pm Subject: a Thought on Change or Death ksheri3 Look at the world and see its emptiness.... Uproot the view of self and thereby go beyond death. (Sutta Nipata 1119) toodles, colette #89922 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 5:38 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' kenhowardau Hi Connie, Nina and Larry, Thanks for answering my question about the list of 89 cittas. Table III: so that's where the appendix to the Buddhist Dictionary comes from! ------------ > Larry: It is discussed in detail in chapter XIV paragraphs 81-124. If you don't have the book we posted this chapter and Nina gave extensive explanations in various emails. An index to these messages can be found at message 55332. ------------- Thanks Larry, I had a brief look and it's all good reading, of course. What a pity I am such a text phobic! --------- L: > No need to explain this whole thing but maybe you can remind us what this is all about. --------- I might go right back and explain how I got into this thread in the first place. I suggested we experiment with a new kind of study corner in which anyone who enrolled would be encouraged and cajoled into taking part on a regular basis. I thought a number of bossy people might take turns at being leader. But it's not that easy. These original texts are time consuming for anyone - not only for phobics. My daily allotted DSG time is more than taken up by other threads, and I can only imagine how hard it would be for other people (who have to work and bring up children etc) to find time. Getting back to your request: Chapter XX is the "Description of purification by knowledge of what is and what is not the Path." This kind of knowledge arises whenever there is "full understanding as investigation" which is dependent upon the prior development of "comprehension by groups." Basically, Chapter XX begins by setting out the different groups that are to be comprehended. I can't pretend to have a clear picture of the procedure by which it does that: there are sub-groups within each group. I think (not sure) every subheading [kindly inserted by the editors?] denotes a new 'group.' The paragraph we are currently studying (31) comes under (b): Consciousness-born Materiality, which I suppose we could call a sub-group of the group, Comprehension of the Material. "The material" is categorised in four ways - (a) kamma-born, (b) consciousness-born, (c) nutriment-born, and (d) temperature born. As I said, we are up to (b), and we are considering the meaning of "consciousness" in this regard. There are 89 types of consciousness. Over to you Larry - or anyone else who has some thoughts or questions to add. (Let's not make Nina and Sarah do all the work.) Ken H PS: I can't remember the original plan: would you remind me please of the paragraph number I was supposed to go up to? (Not that I am looking forward to getting there, of course!) :-) #89923 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 6:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Sorry about the delay regarding: N: "sorry to hear about Luke. You mention a school, so that means something can be done." Scott: Yes, we had four intensive mornings of nutritional information and carbohydrates and fibre and blood sugar readings and insulin and injections and what not. And the rest of the time was hectic. Something can be done. Sincerely, Scott. #89924 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 6:17 pm Subject: Getting comfort from deep teachings that one doesn't have true insight into? philofillet Hi Ken and all > Another thing that's worth thinking about - although it's nowhere near > as pleasant - is what the world would be like if there *were* someone, > somewhere and some e-card etc. All our beloved friends, places and > things to do would be taken from us one day - no one lives forever. > And other things - wars, politics, religions - really would be worth > getting angry and defensive about. Yuk, who wants to do that? Give me > ultimate reality any day! Ken, don't you think this is a kind of escapism? We don't have any sort of insight into ultimate reality, we don't experience the world in terms of ultimate reality, and yet by thinking in ultimately real terms as you and others insist on doing, we can fool ourselves into thinking that we are moving beyond the world and its suffering. This is just the sort of "getting emotional comfort" out of deep teaching that I have often posted about in the past. I saw myself getting up to it so I stopped. Do you see what I mean? Metta, Phil #89925 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Getting comfort from deep teachings that one doesn't have true insight into? philofillet Hi again I mean, if you *really* knew "there is no Ken" it would not have you blithe-ing away about it on the internet, that's for sure! It would be a deeply troubling insight for one without the accumulated resources (various perfections, I guess?) to deal with it! (To have that insight, there would be accumulated panna that would move one (so to speak) beyond angst related to that insight, but for us, no, there is not that kind of insight. I think you and others *might* be dhamma dilettantes about these kind of deep teachings of paramttha dhammas, to tell the truth. Insisting that others adopt them when you are not *truly* up to adopting them yourselves, not really. Dhammatantes! :) Metta, Phil #89926 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 6:51 pm Subject: Re: Getting comfort from deep teachings that one doesn't have true insight into? philofillet Hi again > I mean, if you *really* knew "there is no Ken" it would not have > you blithe-ing away about it on the internet, that's for sure! BTW, the "blithe-ing" above is an invented word, it's not a typo for blithering. :) Metta, Phil #89927 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 6:53 pm Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 9/8/2008 2:48:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > I appreciate it that you still took time to answer my mail just > before leaving. > ----------------------------------- > Howard: > Thanks. :-) > Nina, I have skipped copying your post here, as it is lengthy. My only > reply is that aside from your inclination towards what I see as a discrete, > "separatist" perspective on the flow of phenomena, I found nothing in your > reply to disagree with! :-) > ======================= > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard (and Nina), If you look again at Nina's post you will see that it asks a number of important questions. Nina is as tactful as I am untactful, but please allow me to ask the same questions in a different way. --------- N: > > I understand your comparison with a river, and that there are just moments we call this or that person. The question is, how can we realize such moments, one at a time, and really be convinced of the truth? --------- KH: Actually, I think you go so far, Howard, as to deny the theory of moments, don't you? And I think I can see why. Your model of a person, or of an activity, or of the world in general, is a wave. The present moment is a point on the wave, but you deny the ultimate existence of points. You say a point would exist in "zero time" and, therefore, be incapable of containing any information. So, in your theory. Only the wave itself (which extends from past to future) can tell us anything useful about anything. Surely, that kind of theory would only take us back to where we were 2500 years ago - before the Buddha taught the existence of conditioned dhammas! (?) -------- <. . .> N: > > You also rightly mentioned that there are no gaps between cittas. <. . .> -------- Might I add that you mention no gaps in a way that denies the ultimate existence of function-performing cittas (and dhammas in general). You recognise only the functions performed by wave curves. I'll leave it there for the sake of brevity - except to say that your reply to Nina's post is quite incongruous. I don't know how you could have said, "Aside from your inclination towards what I see as a discrete, "separatist" perspective on the flow of phenomena, I found nothing in your reply to disagree with!" The way I see it, if you disagree with the teaching of discrete (separate) momentary, phenomena you disagree with everything Nina has said. Ken H #89928 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 6:55 pm Subject: Re: Getting comfort from deep teachings that one doesn't have true insight into? truth_aerator Hi Phil and all, >"Phil" wrote: > Hi Ken and all >Ken, don't you think this is a kind of escapism? No kidding. Although I prefer meditation as my way of choice :) . >We don't have any sort of insight into ultimate reality, we don't >experience the world in terms of ultimate reality, and yet by >thinking in ultimately real terms as you and others insist on doing, >we can fool ourselves into thinking that we are moving beyond the >world and its suffering. This is just the sort of "getting emotional >comfort" out of deep teaching that I have often posted about in the >past. I saw myself getting up to it so I stopped. Do you see what I >mean? > > Metta, > > Phil I really agree with you Phil. I don't think anyone trully believes that ultimately there are no trees, no cars moving at 100 mph, no accidents and so on. To DSG Abhidhammikas: Just because the whole can be broken up into parts, it doesn't mean that the whole doesn't exist. Just try running into a wall and tell me the outcome with this imaginary wall. Just because "wall is rupa and bruised body is another rupa + vedana + a whole host of citta cetasikas and rupas" it doesn't alter the pragmatic fact - STAY THE **** AWAY FROM RUNNING INTO WALLS AND TREES. Don't live in the "ultimate reality" while driving at 100 mph, please. Best wishes, Alex #89929 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 7:40 pm Subject: Re: How what we do affects others (or doesn't) philofillet Hi Scott (with a request to all) > Scott: In ultimate terms, neither I nor the other exist. Seeing > 'someone' is, ultimately, seeing visible object (colour) and then > construing mightily. The 'other', in whatever form, guise, > temperament, etc., is entirely created by thinking conditioned by > visible object. > > I'll use an example from my recent everyday life. Thanks for the example. From the point of view of Abhidhamma (or perhaps - I'm not sure - from the point of view of Abhidhamma as taught by AS) I can see what you mean in the explanation that followed. It's consistent. You said you'd been around this block with TG before. And I imagine with Howard as well. Rather than forcing you around the block again and before I post any of the sutta passages that to me clearly point at our affecting other beings, could I ask you or anyone else to point me towards some threads where this has been discussed before so I can read up? Thanks! Metta, Phil #89930 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 7:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali term for wrong view about kamma etc? - 2 philofillet Hi Jon I wrote: > > Through more wholesome behaviour, > > we (so to speak) improve our hopes for a favourable destination > > after death. In the hell and animal realms, there are no > > possibilities to develop understanding. Improving our hopes for a > > favrouable destination after death is rarely talked about here, or > > if it is there is often talk of it representing clinging to self etc > > but it is a very, very central point of Anguttara Nikaya and I'm > > sure the other Nikayas. In the Buddha's day, I have read, the > > principle aim of householders was to do merit in order for a > > favourable rebirth. I find that that is a reasonable approach to the > > Dhamma for myself as well. > You wrote: Interesting the references in the texts to the Buddha's layfollowers > doing merit and the matter of a favourable rebirth. > > In the Buddha's time, those who perceived the possibility of attaining > enlightenment in that lifetime tended to join the order. So those who > remained householders assumed further rebirths for themselves. Phil: "Assumed?" What do you mean, that they considered it guaranteed or something? That's not the message I get. At the > same time, however, they appreciated the value of kusala (of all kinds), > not least of which was as supporting a favourable rebirth ("favourable" > meaning a rebirth in which the teachings were again available). Ph: Yes, I like this definition of favourable. If there were no assurance of meeting the teachings again, there would surely be a spinning back into the dire realms again. > So we should keep in mind that it was not simply a matter of doing > kusala in order to obtain rebirth in a pleasant realm (not that that's > what you were suggesting). Ph: Right. I like the teaching that says the human realm is in fact the best for developing an understanding of the Dhamma because of the slew of all kinds of pleasant and unpleasant phenomena which when understood lead to bhavana. The devas don't have it so good in that sense, althought they have it good in the sucking on sweet nectars sense... > However, the aim of obtaining of a favourable rebirth by the development > of kusala other than (i.e., less than) satipatthana has 2 shortcomings. > > The first is that such kusala does not necessarily support rebirth in a > realm where the teachings of a Buddha are available. That is more the > outcome of an interest in that part of the teachings that is unique to a > Buddha, i.e., satipatthana/vipassana). > > The second is that it is not a sustainable strategy over the longer > terms because no matter how much kusala of that kind is developed, > including to high level of jhana, the accumulated akusala will sooner or > later assert itself and condition actions resulting in rebirth in the > lower planes. > > So an interest in satipatthana, at whatever level is appropriate to > one's current developed understanding, is the best refuge! Ph: OK, I'll agree with you there. But "an interest in satipatthana" and real satipatthana are different. I find that in your approach there is too much interest in sati and panna that become aware of fleeting realities. I think it is just a lot of thinking, not satipatthana. And as I was saying to Ken in another post, I think there is a glaring gap between your (students of AS) "current developed understanding" as I assume it actually is (not so radically different from my own when it comes to awareness of realities, although your book knowledge is much greater) and the kind of understanding you always talk about. That gap is almost insanely (schizophrenically?) wide in my opinion. > > p.s these two responses to your post turned into a kind of summing > > up of "where I'm at" I guess..of more interest to myself than anyone > > else... > > > > Not at all. Interesting, and obviously going in a good direction. Keep > it up!! Thanks Jon! Metta, Phil #89931 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 3:55 pm Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realitie upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/8/2008 9:54:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard (and Nina), If you look again at Nina's post you will see that it asks a number of important questions. Nina is as tactful as I am untactful, but please allow me to ask the same questions in a different way. --------- N: > > I understand your comparison with a river, and that there are just moments we call this or that person. The question is, how can we realize such moments, one at a time, and really be convinced of the truth? --------- KH: Actually, I think you go so far, Howard, as to deny the theory of moments, don't you? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that's correct. And that theory isn't to be found in the suttas, AFAIK. I'm not certain even that is in the Abhidhamma, though of course it does appear in the commentaries. -------------------------------------------- And I think I can see why. Your model of a person, or of an activity, or of the world in general, is a wave. The present moment is a point on the wave, but you deny the ultimate existence of points. You say a point would exist in "zero time" and, therefore, be incapable of containing any information. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The moments presumed here (on DSG) are not zero-time things. BTW, rupas do exhibit wavelike behavior of rising, stasis, and decline according to the commentaries, if I'm not mistaken. ------------------------------------------ So, in your theory. Only the wave itself (which extends from past to future) can tell us anything useful about anything. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I have no theory. I just observe. However things are, they are. ------------------------------------------- Surely, that kind of theory would only take us back to where we were 2500 years ago - before the Buddha taught the existence of conditioned dhammas! (?) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Nonsense! The theory of moments wasn't taught by the Buddha. You have your own view of the Dhamma, more extreme than most of those on DSG, and you present it as unquestionable Buddha word. You seem to have no doubts at all as to the correctness of your perspective on matters, and you consider any variation from your views to be unquestionable error if not outright foolishness. Some might call that clinging, Ken. ---------------------------------------- -------- <. . .> N: > > You also rightly mentioned that there are no gaps between cittas. <. . .> -------- Might I add that you mention no gaps in a way that denies the ultimate existence of function-performing cittas (and dhammas in general). You recognise only the functions performed by wave curves. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, no gaps in conciousness is no gaps in consciousness. I didn't say it in some special way. I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. You concoct a theory, put it in my mouth, and then try to make me spit it out. Pffft! ------------------------------------------ I'll leave it there for the sake of brevity - except to say that your reply to Nina's post is quite incongruous. ---------------------------------------- Howard: If you think it important to evaluate what I write to Nina, enjoy yourself! It does strike me as a rude thing to do, though. You're not just discussing Dhamma or putting forward your opinion or indicating why you think my understanding is incorrect, but lashing out at me for a perfectly friendly and polite post to a good friend of mine. I don't find it very nice. -------------------------------------- I don't know how you could have said, "Aside from your inclination towards what I see as a discrete, "separatist" perspective on the flow of phenomena, I found nothing in your reply to disagree with!" --------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, I will presume that is so: you don't know. -------------------------------------- The way I see it, if you disagree with the teaching of discrete (separate) momentary, phenomena you disagree with everything Nina has said. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I wonder whether Nina sees it that way. In any case, your seeing it that way just makes me more comfortable. -------------------------------------- Ken H =========================== With metta, Howard #89932 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 7:57 pm Subject: Re: Getting comfort from deep teachings that one doesn't have true insight into? philofillet Hi ALex > >Ken, don't you think this is a kind of escapism? > > No kidding. Although I prefer meditation as my way of choice :) . Interesting. Do you see meditation as escapism? At first one thinks that that must be a no-no, but I guess samattha meditation is a kind of escapism in that it makes us less vulnerable to flying off in response to sense objects or something like that? But on the other hand, it makes us safer to go out amoungst sense objects, it offers protection, so maybe escapism isn't the right word? Metta, Phil #89933 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali term for wrong view about kamma etc? - 2 philofillet Hi again Jon I wrote: >I think there is a glaring gap between your (students of > AS) "current developed understanding" as I assume it actually is > (not so radically different from my own when it comes to awareness > of realities, although your book knowledge is much greater) and the > kind of understanding you always talk about. That gap is almost > insanely (schizophrenically?) wide in my opinion. Just to clarify that I know you don't claim to have that kind of deeply advanced understanding. It's just my suspicion that if we often or always talk and think about understanding in the terms that the great ones understood (i.e aryian understanding) we will subconsciously try too hard to have it and just make a kind of comforting game out of it. Metta, Phil #89934 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:20 pm Subject: Re: Getting comfort from deep teachings that one doesn't have true insight into? kenhowardau Hi Phil, --------- KH: > > Another thing that's worth thinking about - although it's nowhere near > as pleasant - is what the world would be like if there *were* someone, > somewhere and some e-card etc. All our beloved friends, places and > things to do would be taken from us one day - no one lives forever. > And other things - wars, politics, religions - really would be worth > getting angry and defensive about. Yuk, who wants to do that? Give me > ultimate reality any day! Ph: > Ken, don't you think this is a kind of escapism? ----------- When a view of ultimate non-existence is happily held by someone who does not know the middle way (of conditioned dhammas) then, yes, it is escapism. ----------------------- Ph: > We don't have any sort of insight into ultimate reality, ----------------------- Then what have we been doing at DSG all these years - wasting our time? ----------------- Ph: > we don't experience the world in terms of ultimate reality, ------------------ I would like to remind you that the ultimate realities - visible object, hardness, temperature (etc) - are being experienced all the time in daily life. But I think I know what you mean: I think you mean that panna is not arising now to know those dhammas as they really are. So what? Can't we at least know there is not-knowing! :-) -------------------------- Ph: > and yet by thinking in ultimately real terms as you and others insist on doing, we can fool ourselves into thinking that we are moving beyond the world and its suffering. -------------------------- I agree; that would be a mistake. There is no one that can "move" anywhere. There are only the presently arisen conditioned dhammas. But maybe that is not what you meant. :-) So what did you mean? Is right understanding dangerous? ---------------- Ph: > This is just the sort of "getting emotional comfort" out of deep teaching that I have often posted about in the past. I saw myself getting up to it so I stopped. Do you see what I mean? ----------------- Yes. I think you have always believed the Abhidhamma was about "doing something." And so it was not a bad thing that you stopped. Can you see that a conventional understanding of 'doing' is antithetical to the Dhamma? According to the Dhamma, there is only one real kind of doing. And that is, the function performed [momentarily] by a fleeting, conditioned dhamma. Ken H PS: Reading ahead: ------- Ph: > Dhammatantes! :) ------- Philistine! :) #89935 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:50 pm Subject: Re: Getting comfort from deep teachings that one doesn't have true insight into? philofillet Hi Ken Thanks for your friendly response. We can always count on that from you. > Can you see that a conventional understanding of 'doing' is > antithetical to the Dhamma? According to the Dhamma, there is only one > real kind of doing. And that is, the function performed [momentarily] > by a fleeting, conditioned dhamma. Ph: No, I can't understand how on earth a conventional understanding of doing is antithetical to the Dhamma. Last night I was reading the Vism instructions on meditating on the breath, just for one example. It is an extremely detailed list of what to do. That conventional doing will lead to bhavana, perhaps, and then there can be a real understanding of Dhamma which is at the deep level of no conventional "doing", real insight into cittas performing their functions etc. But to try to scrap conventional "doing" right from the beginning is not at all what the Buddha teaches, as far as I can see. Gosh, Ken, you're studying the deep, later chapters of Vism. How can you possibly say that the earlier chapters on concentration don't involve doing!?! Just for one example: "Herein, this clansman who is a beginner should first give attention to this meditation subject by counting. And when counting, he should not stop short of five or go beyond ten or make any break in the series. By stopping short of five, his thoughts get extied in the cramped space, like a herd of cattle shit in a cramped pen. By going beyond ten, his thoughts that the number (rather than the rebaths) for their support..." Are you going to say that this counting the breaths no-less-than 5 times and no-more-than 10 times just arises on its own or will you concede there are clear and specific instruction about how to meditate? (Of course this is Buddhaghosa but since you are studying vism. in detail in its depths, I assume you take Buddhagosa as reliable in transmitting the Buddha's teaching.) Actually, it seems silly offering one example of conventional doing because it suggests that it has to be defended by examples! Of course there is conventional doing Ken! Conventional helps to establish conditoins for insight! WSWWANWWWTB! (short for Howard's famous expression! We start where we are...) Anyways, I'll drop it there. I make the kind of pointings-out like I did today without any hope of you seeing what I mean, you are thoroughly hooked on your way - and that's not bad! In the end, I think, being utterly hooked on some approach to the Dhamma helps us make good progress in getting beyond our worst defilements, even if the approach we are hooked on is flawed. Yes, yes, it's all about cittas being developed, not people, not really, not ultimately I agree. But there has to be people doing things wisely to avoid harming themselves and others first, and people doing things to provide themselves with better conditions for deepening understanding...etc. Metta, Phil #89936 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 4:53 pm Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities TGrand458@... Hi Nina, Howard, Anybody In a message dated 9/8/2008 12:48:49 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: -------- N: I understand your comparison with a river, and that there are just moments we call this or that person. The question is, how can we realize such moments, one at a time, and really be convinced of the truth? In the past you emphasized rightly the operation of conditions and you quoted a sutta: when this is, that is. It is short and concise in the suttas, but we need more details. We need the Patthaana with all details about the twentyfour classes of conditions. Otherwise we just say: it is conditioned in a complex way, but how? ................................................... TG: Conditionality needs only limited details. The more detail you infuse into it, the further away you get from the crux of the point of conditionality...which is no-self. The Right-View that is conditionality is a view that sees that all arisen phenomena are not self; and empty and hollow of anything that could be considered "their own" or "own essence." The "insight" results from the principles of conditionality and the ramifications thereof, not some conceptual viewpoint of cittanic dominos dancing around each other. The more detail you throw into the mix, the more likely you are to get lost in the details, a maze of theory, and miss the main point and the principle of the matter. Hence, mere "reference points" (dhammas) become overly substantialized as constituents of reality. Its just theory stuff. The details are also near infinite and endless. So when do you draw the line? (Rhetorical question) ........................................................................... Also the Visuddhimagga is of great help. We learn by the Patthaana that each citta that falls away is a condition for the immediately succeeding one, this is proximity- condition, anantara-paccaya. Anantara means: no interval. ................................................... TG: The above always strikes me as a gross violation of the Buddha's principles of Dependent Origination. The Buddha did not say that -- by the ceasing of something, something else arises. He said the opposite. .................................................... You also rightly mentioned that there are no gaps between cittas. The rebirth-consciousneThe rebirth-consciousness immediat consciousness of the previous life. .................................................... TG: And you know this as a fact how? By reading it in a book? Or seeing it directly with super-meditative powers? Perhaps these types of statements should be preceded with....the texts say... ........................................................................ In the previous life you were not Howard, you were another being. But since each citta is succeeded by the next one, inclinations, kammas of the past are accumulated to the present life. Although the present life is conditioned by the past life, we should remember what the Visuddhimagga so aptly expresses: 'There is no person who travels from the past life to the present life'. And the verse I posted recently in my Visuddhimagga study: 'States [dhammas] originate from [other] states as causes; no self exists here, nor another. As causes, constituents, conditions, it is states that produce states.' ..................................................................... TG: These quotes merely are pointing out the ramifications of conditionality...i.e., no-self. It is mere language. We are not to over-indulge in the language to think that the "states" are "their own thing," "have their own characteristic," or "are ultimate realities." Nay, such an interpretation actually violates the very message that the Visuddhimagga is trying to convey. It TURNS "states" into the very thing it is arguing against! I.E., selves. THIS IS the delusion! This is why the Buddha teaches that the mind needs to "turn away" from the elements...not indulge in them and build them up into " ultimate realities." THIS is the big difference between the "dhammas theory" of the Abhidhammists...which sees phenomena as "ultimate realities"; and the Conditionality the Buddha taught that leads to seeing phenomena as hollow, empty, void, etc. The two are 180 degrees opposite!!!!! ........................................................................... Thus, dhammas produce other dhammas. This refers to all the preceding passages in the Vis. about the links that are kamma (ignorance etc.) producing vipaaka (consciousness, as rebirth-consciousnerebirth-consciousness etc.). Dhammas are prod no place for a person. ........................................................... TG: Truthfully, there is no place for "dhammas" either!!!! ..................................................................... What are these dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa. When thinking of a whole of a person it does not help me to become detached from the idea of self. When beginning to understand that whatever appears is a mere dhamma will lead to detachment. ........................................................... TG: Nonsense. One just transfers "self-view" from the idea of a "person" to the idea of a "dhamma." Actually, conceiving "dhammas" is in some ways more dangerous because one unwittingly thinks progress in overcoming self-view has been achieved when in actuality it has just been deferred. ................................................................ The Visuddhimagga does justice to the accumulations of different beings, the different kammas producing different results in different planes of existence. You need not fear that this is overlooked. Citta that arises does so because of different conditions, but it can still be said: it comes from nowhere and it does not go anywhere, to explain its momentariness. I find the idea of momentary birth and death that can be applied to each citta helpful. Also now we can say: no person travels from the preceding moment to this very moment. You asked about daily life with the example of car accident, hospital, the law, etc. I understand that you are wondering how to apply 'no person' to the situations in daily life. ........................................................... TG: A "person" is merely a "systematic interaction of conditions." There is indeed a "systematic interaction of conditions." But there is no person or self therein. But from a deluded framework, we function as if there is, as does society. TG OUT ..................................................................... #89937 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 9:32 pm Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities philofillet HiTG and all > TG: A "person" is merely a "systematic interaction of conditions." There > is indeed a "systematic interaction of conditions." But there is no person or > self therein. But from a deluded framework, we function as if there is, as > does society. Well said. I often think "for all intents and purposes" people exist, in both the literal and figurative sense of that expression. In ultimate terms they don't of course - they don't in science either. For people to exist in ultimate terms we'd have to believe in a creator God. We are stuck with the "deluded framework", pretty much. We can't just shake it off and replace it with the correct framework but it seems to me what people try to do. Metta, Phil #89938 From: "colette" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:13 pm Subject: Re: Getting comfort from deep teachings that one doesn't have true insight into? ksheri3 Hi all, I certainly will take issue with this! Although I don't have much time at least I can get the begining of the thought down so that I can finish it properly tomorrow. > >We don't have any sort of insight into ultimate reality, colette: ENOUGH SAID. Don't go further since I have experienced death before and I can tell you that the world I left before my NDE in 1978, was/is not the same world that I am now in or that I came to since 1978. I also cannot possibly explain certain aspects of my own consciousness that have changed noticibly since the time I went to bed that night and when I woke up a couple of weeks later in the hosp. A profound change took place and I cannot find any good explanations other than that through science I will find the answers. I've tried through magik and I cannot possibly tell you that magik does work, magik is real, but I can say for certain that this Tibetan Buddhist stuff and Yogacara et al, that I've been working on is some of the best stuff out there! NO JOKE! I can also say that I do not want to become some guru that has to tend a flock of sheep waiting to be fleeced, constantly. I want to continue my work. Sure, money would help me to accomplish a lot more and do it a lot better, but money comes with it's negative sides. I've got 30 years of setting this up through the jews and their kabbalistic beliefs, that are pretty darn close to my beliefs before I read the material, and I wouldn't want to mess up the harvest now that the fruits are ripening and are delicious! gots ta go. see ya tomorrow. toodles, colette #89939 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 8:59 pm Subject: The moderate, middle, magic, & majestic view! bhikkhu0 Friends: The Middle Way of Wise Moderate Ontology: The Blessed Buddha on remarked on speculation on existence: This world, Kaccana, is generally chained up by engaged involvement, panic clinging and attachment to various views! But one of right view neither becomes engaged nor cling to any such rigid commitment, assumption, mental standpoint, adherence, nor underlying tendency! He does not take a stand about 'My Self', nor has he any perplexity or doubt about what arises is only Suffering arising, & what ceases is only Suffering ceasing! His assurance about this, is independent of others... In this way, Kaccana, is there advanced right view!!! 'All exists': Kaccana, this is the one extreme.... 'All does not exist'; this is the opposite extreme!!! Without veering towards either of these futile extremes, the Thus-Come-Thus-Gone One teaches the Dhamma from this subtle, intriguing Middle: Conditioned by ignorance, mental construction arises. Conditioned by construction, consciousness arises. Conditioned by consciousness, name-&-form arises. Conditioned by name-&-form, the-6-senses arises. Conditioned by the-6-senses, contact arises. Conditioned by contact, feeling arises. Conditioned by feeling, craving arises. Conditioned by craving, clinging arises. Conditioned by clinging, becoming arises. Conditioned by becoming, birth arises. Conditioned by birth, ageing, decay, & death arises. Such is the arising of this whole mass of suffering...!!! Note: Neither 'Material Substantialism' nor 'Imagined Illusionism', but 'Plain Realism'...!!! Right down in the moderate, magic, & majestic middle! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya XII (15); [II 17] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 An Ocean of Dhamma Teaching! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-015.html Full text here! More on Right View: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_View.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Straight_View.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Leaving_Wrong_View.htm The moderate, middle, magic, & majestic right view! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #89940 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 9:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] I will die philofillet Hi Sarah I was happy to read about Simon's recovery! > But is there any of the understanding that really counts in life? If there is no understanding of dhammas as dhammas, not self, are such experiences and character changes of any real value? You'd say 'yes', I'd say 'probably not'. There are going to be lifetime after lifetime of such experiences unless the eightfold path, beginning with right understanding, is developed, as I see it. Ph: In my view these days, what really counts in life is behaviour. (i.e cetana/kamma conditioning moments of what is seen by ourselves or others as behaviour in the conventional sense.) The 4 recollections on old age, sickness and death and loss of all would just be a downer if it weren't for the 5th one, that we are owners of our kamma. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the purpose of the sutta (and probably not) but the recollection on those 4 trues conditions samverga re the 5th, and we become much more circumspect about what we do, say and think, especially when behaviour that we know to be defined by the Buddha as akusala kamma patha are involved. (And the definitions provided are pretty detailed.) Not to say that there still isn't akusala kamma patha, of course there is, but there is a lot less conditioned by reflecting on the truth that we are owners of our kamma and when we die we will be stuck with what we have said, done and thought in the past lifetime. (And all other lifetimes, of course, but there is more weight on the most recent lifetime.) I "got into" religion in my mid-twenties because I was fearful of death and looked into this and that faith, and judging from my interest in destinations after death I am still fearful of death, but the great thing is that as it is pointed out in the Kalama sutta, even if there *is* no rebirth, even if deeds do *not* have results, behaving in the light of a belief that there is and they do will lead to me living this one lifetime in a more wholesome, less harmful way. Changes in character conditioned by this sort of thing. Yes, sure. Not complete changes, but important changes. (Character, of course, is just an accumulation of behaviour - what we do, say and think.) Here's an example I may have shared before. Like many, most or all men (I don't know which) I spent many years developing the behavioural habit of "checking out" every single woman I passed on the street, sat across from on the train, met at work etc. This "checking out" was a flash of mental behaviour involving undressing her mentally, imagining her (if she qualified) in various sexual poses etc. This sort of thing went on all the time, and I'm sure it does for many/most men. But over the last 3 or 4 years, conditoned by sensitivity to the Buddha's teaching about not behaving in a way that does harm to oneself or others, I have ridded myself of this behaviour habit! That's *huge* Sarah, you can't imagine. (Still fail when I am talking to someone face to face, mind you, because when one is engaged in conversattion there can is weaker guarding of the sense doors, maybe.) Anyway, that's just one example. Is the habit lurking, waiting to spring back to life? Only if I lose my mind. (Which is why I fear Alzheimer's.) In the next life it will reappear, because it has been oppressed but not really eliminated? Hmm. I don't know about that. But in this lifetime, when I face death and many times before than when I do the kind of self-analysis the Buddha urges us to make (am I often lustful, hateful, lazy, restless? etc - I forget the sutta number, but it can only be done by examining behaviour) there will be condidence that progress has made and thereby deepened faith in the Buddha etc. > Interesting anyway. Conditions for me to keep reflecting on Simon's story and how we all cling so much to this body, not wish to be sick, get old or die, forgetting about the momentary death that occurs all the time as the various elements rise and fall away. Ph: Unfortunately these days I don't get anything out of reflecting on momentary death of elements rising and falling away, as you can imagine from the other posts I wrote today. Perhaps that will return....For now, it's all about conventional death. For example, I'm very fond of the sutta in AN which urges us to reflect on how very many ways there are to die, and tells us to reflect on whether, if we were to die today, to what degree there would be defilements remaining that would be to our disadvantage etc. Of course you would quote the adze handle simile here to discourage me from thinking in those terms, but one *does* know when defilements have lost their power, even as we know that they have not been permanently eradicated. OK, enough posting! Back in a few days. Metta, Phil #89941 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 10:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] I will die philofillet Hi again > and when we die we will be stuck with what we have > said, done and thought in the past lifetime. correction: in the present or just ended lifetime, I mean, in addition to all the other lifetimes. metta, phil #89942 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 10:05 pm Subject: Does kamma from this lifetime bear more weight than kamma from past lifetimes? philofillet Hi all Question just came up when I posted to Sarah. The title says it all. Would this be included in the imponderable related to kamma, or is there anything from the Suttanta about the relative weight of kamma from the most recent lifetime and past lifetimes? Thanks Metta, Phil #89943 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 10:27 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' lbidd2 Hi Ken, Well done. A good summary. The only thing I have to add is to emphasize that this thread is all about the various stages of insight. This paragraph lists the kinds of consciousness that lead to the arising of rupa. For example, one might say that an email is an intimation rupa produced by consciousness. Understanding that in your experience is insight. The whole thing can get very complicated but understanding even a simple element can be insight. Larry #89944 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Sep 8, 2008 11:46 pm Subject: Re: Getting comfort from deep teachings that one doesn't have true insight into? kenhowardau Hi Phil, Thanks for your reply. And I appreciate your friendly attitude too, even if you are a dojo buster! :-) (Just kidding!) A quick response before you go: ---------- Ph: > Anyways, I'll drop it there. I make the kind of pointings-out like I did today without any hope of you seeing what I mean ---------- You have pointed out the conventional run-of-the-mill version of "doing." What makes you think I won't understand that? As a mere worldling I find it hard to understand any other kind. That is, I find it hard to understand that the only real kind of doing is the function of fleeting, impersonal conditioned dhammas. But that is the kind of doing I prefer to discuss here at DSG. Isn't it possible that you are the one who hasn't caught on yet? :-) Ken H #89945 From: "Tep" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:10 am Subject: Jhana as Requisite for Nibbana dhammanusarin Hi Alex, - In your opinion do you think the following sutta states that jhana is a requisite for Nibbana? I think it does. There are other suttas on Nibbana (that I recently posted here) that also give the same message. SN 9.11 Ayoniso-manasikara Sutta : I have heard that on one occasion a certain monk was dwelling among the Kosalans in a forest thicket. Now at that time, he spent the day's abiding thinking evil, unskillful thoughts: i.e., thoughts of sensuality, thoughts of ill will, thoughts of doing harm. Then the devata inhabiting the forest thicket, feeling sympathy for the monk, desiring his benefit, desiring to bring him to his senses, approached him and addressed him with this verse: From inappropriate attention you're being chewed by your thoughts. Relinquishing what's inappropriate, contemplate appropriately. Keeping your mind on the Teacher, the Dhamma, the Sangha, your virtues, you will arrive at joy, rapture, pleasure without doubt. Then, saturated with joy, you will put an end to suffering & stress. The monk, chastened by the devata, came to his senses. -------------------------------------- Tep === #89946 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: no e-card from no where! egberdina Hi KenH, 2008/9/9 kenhowardau : > Hi Azita, > > Another thing that's worth thinking about - although it's nowhere near > as pleasant - is what the world would be like if there *were* someone, > somewhere and some e-card etc. All our beloved friends, places and > things to do would be taken from us one day - no one lives forever. > And other things - wars, politics, religions - really would be worth > getting angry and defensive about. Yuk, who wants to do that? Give me > ultimate reality any day! > You sound like an alcoholic. (I don't have a problem with alcoholics). From what you say, ultimate reality is a view you adopt, an attitude you assume, a bottle you purchase, a pill you pop, as a response and antidote to dukkha. Hardly satisfactory when the hangover hits. Cheers Herman #89947 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:34 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities egberdina Hi TG, I'm going to defy etiquette here, and post a reply at the top of your reply. And I'm not going to trim either. Rules be damned. What a SUPER post. thank you thank you thank you Cheers Herman 2008/9/9 : > Hi Nina, Howard, Anybody > > > In a message dated 9/8/2008 12:48:49 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > -------- > N: I understand your comparison with a river, and that there are just > moments we call this or that person. > The question is, how can we realize such moments, one at a time, and > really be convinced of the truth? > In the past you emphasized rightly the operation of conditions and > you quoted a sutta: when this is, that is. It is short and concise in > the suttas, but we need more details. We need the Patthaana with all > details about the twentyfour classes of conditions. Otherwise we just > say: it is conditioned in a complex way, but how? > > ................................................... > > > TG: Conditionality needs only limited details. The more detail you infuse > into it, the further away you get from the crux of the point of > conditionality...which is no-self. The Right-View that is conditionality is a view that > sees that all arisen phenomena are not self; and empty and hollow of anything > that could be considered "their own" or "own essence." The "insight" > results from the principles of conditionality and the ramifications thereof, not > some conceptual viewpoint of cittanic dominos dancing around each other. The > more detail you throw into the mix, the more likely you are to get lost in the > details, a maze of theory, and miss the main point and the principle of the > matter. Hence, mere "reference points" (dhammas) become overly > substantialized as constituents of reality. Its just theory stuff. The details are also > near infinite and endless. So when do you draw the line? (Rhetorical > question) > > > ........................................................................... > > > > Also the > Visuddhimagga is of great help. > We learn by the Patthaana that each citta that falls away is a > condition for the immediately succeeding one, this is proximity- > condition, anantara-paccaya. Anantara means: no interval. > > ................................................... > > > TG: The above always strikes me as a gross violation of the Buddha's > principles of Dependent Origination. The Buddha did not say that -- by the ceasing > of something, something else arises. He said the opposite. > > > .................................................... > > > > > > You also rightly mentioned that there are no gaps between cittas. > The rebirth-consciousneThe rebirth-consciousness immediat > consciousness of the previous life. > > .................................................... > > > TG: And you know this as a fact how? By reading it in a book? Or seeing > it directly with super-meditative powers? > > > Perhaps these types of statements should be preceded with....the texts say... > > > ........................................................................ > > > > In the previous life you were not > Howard, you were another being. But since each citta is succeeded by > the next one, inclinations, kammas of the past are accumulated to the > present life. Although the present life is conditioned by the past > life, we should remember what the Visuddhimagga so aptly expresses: > 'There is no person who travels from the past life to the present life'. > And the verse I posted recently in my Visuddhimagga study: > 'States [dhammas] originate from [other] states as causes; > > no self exists here, nor another. > > As causes, constituents, conditions, > > it is states that produce states.' > > ..................................................................... > > > TG: These quotes merely are pointing out the ramifications of > conditionality...i.e., no-self. It is mere language. We are not to over-indulge in the > language to think that the "states" are "their own thing," "have their own > characteristic," or "are ultimate realities." Nay, such an interpretation > actually violates the very message that the Visuddhimagga is trying to convey. It > TURNS "states" into the very thing it is arguing against! I.E., selves. > THIS IS the delusion! > > > This is why the Buddha teaches that the mind needs to "turn away" from the > elements...not indulge in them and build them up into " ultimate realities." > > > THIS is the big difference between the "dhammas theory" of the > Abhidhammists...which sees phenomena as "ultimate realities"; and the Conditionality the > Buddha taught that leads to seeing phenomena as hollow, empty, void, etc. The > two are 180 degrees opposite!!!!! > > > ........................................................................... > > > > > Thus, dhammas produce other dhammas. > This refers to all the preceding passages in the Vis. about the links > that are kamma (ignorance etc.) producing vipaaka (consciousness, as > rebirth-consciousnerebirth-consciousness etc.). Dhammas are prod > no place for a person. > > ........................................................... > > > TG: Truthfully, there is no place for "dhammas" either!!!! > > > ..................................................................... > > > > > > > What are these dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa. > > When thinking of a whole of a person it does not help me to become > detached from the idea of self. When beginning to understand that > whatever appears is a mere dhamma will lead to detachment. > > ........................................................... > > > TG: Nonsense. One just transfers "self-view" from the idea of a "person" > to the idea of a "dhamma." > > > Actually, conceiving "dhammas" is in some ways more dangerous because one > unwittingly thinks progress in overcoming self-view has been achieved when in > actuality it has just been deferred. > > > ................................................................ > > > > The Visuddhimagga does justice to the accumulations of different > beings, the different kammas producing different results in different > planes of existence. You need not fear that this is overlooked. > Citta that arises does so because of different conditions, but it can > still be said: it comes from nowhere and it does not go anywhere, to > explain its momentariness. > I find the idea of momentary birth and death that can be applied to > each citta helpful. Also now we can say: no person travels from the > preceding moment to this very moment. > > You asked about daily life with the example of car accident, > hospital, the law, etc. > I understand that you are wondering how to apply 'no person' to the > situations in daily life. > > ........................................................... > > > TG: A "person" is merely a "systematic interaction of conditions." There > is indeed a "systematic interaction of conditions." But there is no person or > self therein. But from a deluded framework, we function as if there is, as > does society. > > > TG OUT > > ..................................................................... > #89948 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important nilovg Dear Scott, Op 9-sep-2008, om 3:15 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > Yes, we had four intensive mornings of nutritional information > and carbohydrates and fibre and blood sugar readings and insulin and > injections and what not. And the rest of the time was hectic. > Something can be done. ------ N: I am glad to hear this, and it is good to have all the info. And this is for anybody who is wondering how to combine normal daily life with paramatthas: Understanding that what we take for a person are fleeting namas and rupas does not mean that we say: O. it is all kamma and vipaaka, we do not go to docters, etc. To me it seems redundant to think of contradictions, how can it be, etc. Too much thinking with doubts does not help. Nina. #89949 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:43 am Subject: Re: Questions regarding Ignorance hantun1 Dear Nina (and Jessica), Jessica asked a very good question. [When I read my original question, I found that I made one mistake in the typing. The proper question is that if an "uninstructed worlding" is doing a good deed, s/he doesn't have ignorance in some of the mind moments according to the fact that "ignorance doesn't arise with kusla citta". But if the definition of Ignorance is not knowing the 4 noble truth, dependent origination, etc, then for an uninstructed worlding, they won't know the Dhamma through making dana. So how can they not be "ignorant" for any moment ? May be I'm mixing up the definitions/ concepts. Could someone please clarify?] I would also be interested how you would answer this question. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #89950 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:47 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 10, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, There may not often be kusala of the level of the development of right understanding, but it is important to remember the cultivation of all the different ways of kusala. When we were visiting an old lady who lived alone, in a secluded place, a friend was cutting her hair and the white flakes of hair were falling down. At one moment there may be conditions to consider “Parts of the Body”: Hair of the head, hair of the body, teeth, nails... etc., and this can condition calm. There is no need to think beforehand that one should cultivate calm with such a subject, but when there is right understanding of calm it can arise naturally. At another moment one may develop mettå while one helps the old lady or while one looks at the many ants on her doorpost. At another moment again there can be “study” of visible object as only visible object. Is it necessary that there is calm first, before mindfulness of nåma and rúpa can arise? Are the sections of the ‘Satipatthåna Sutta” (Middle Length Sayings, no 10) about Mindfulness of Breath, Parts of the Body and Corpses not an indication for this? When we read the whole context of the sutta we see that the Buddha did not teach that there should be development of samatha first, before one develops vipassanå. This sutta and all the other suttas teach us that, no matter what one is doing, walking, standing, sitting or lying down, cultivating moments of calm or being engaged in any other activity, there can be mindfulness of any reality appearing at the present moment. Even akusala citta, as we read in the “Satipatthåna Sutta”, in the section on mindfulness of citta, can be object of mindfulness. The citta which develops calm of samatha can also be object of mindfulness. At the moments of calm do nåma and rúpa not arise? When, for example, a corpse is the object of calm, sati of vipassanå can arise and be aware of any reality which appears. That is the way to eventually see nåmas and rúpas as they are. There is no other way. As we have seen, right understanding of samatha is different from right understanding of vipassanå. Right understanding of samatha does not know the true nature of visible object, seeing, sound or hearing which appear now. Right understanding of samatha cannot “automatically” change into right understanding of vipassanå. All kinds of kusala are of great value. We cannot determine which type of kusala arises at a particular moment. Every type of kusala, every reality, can be the object of mindfulness in vipassanå. Sometimes we feel unable to cultivate any type of kusala. When we are tired or sick, don’t we attach great importance to the way we feel and don’t we make this into an excuse not to develop kusala? Clinging to ourselves conditions many kinds of akusala. ****** Nina. #89951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:54 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities nilovg Dear Ken, Howard (and TG), thank you all for your posts. Op 9-sep-2008, om 3:53 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > If you look again at Nina's post you will see that it asks a number of > important questions. Nina is as tactful as I am untactful, but please > allow me to ask the same questions in a different way. -------- N: Ken, you made me laugh. Your dialogue with Howard is too good, I won't add anything and leave you to your devices. Besides, too much home work given by Larry, Connie, Scott. Nina. #89952 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Old kamma & present behavio sarahprocter... Hi Herman & Tep, --- On Mon, 8/9/08, Herman Hofman wrote: >> Sarah: On the other-hand, for the wise, there may be wise attention > and the development of understanding following the kusala vipaka. All > that are experienced through the body-sense are various rupas, none > of them a 'body', none of them belonging to anyone. With such > understanding and detachment, there is kusala kamma. >.... > > Herman: It seems to me that the accumulations that this explanation > relies upon certainly must belong to someone. Else, how do disembodied > accumulations lead to action, as you suggest? > ............ .. S: As Nina recently quoted (#89858)in the Vism series: >"Thus with its causes this arises; it is painful, impermanent, unlasting, fickle and changeable. States [dhammas] originate from [other] states as causes; no self exists here, nor another. As causes, constituents, conditions, it is states that produce states. And the Buddha taught the Dhamma for cessation of [all] causes. When causes have been made to cease, the round, being cut, revolves no more; So here the life of purity [brahmacariya] exists to make a [final] end of pain. Finding no being, there is neither eternity nor annihilation. ---------- The Tiika explains words of this verse: ‘Thus with its causes this arises (Eva.m samuppannamida.m sahetuka.m)’, this refers to vipaaka arisen from kamma. Samupanna refers here also to saâ€?nkhaara, formations, arising from ignorance. This means the Wheel of Becoming, the Tiika states."< ***** S: Later: "As we read: ‘dhammas originate from [other] dhammas as causes; no self exists here, nor another.’ (dhammehi dhammaa pabhavanti hetuso, na hettha attaava parova vijjati). As causes, constituents, conditions, it is states that produce states. (Dhammaa dhamme sa~njanenti, hetusambhaarapaccayaa)" S: Dhammas dependent on dhammas, no beings, no people which they belong to. ***** > T: ....So we will hear again that there are no pannatti or concepts in > the ultimate realities, or we may hear again that all concepts are > only "conventionally real" and ultimately there are no individual, no > action(no doing). H:> I think your analysis is correct. There are those that talk about concepts and ultimate realities and no beings and no doings as though they are the teachings of the Buddha, and there are those who know full well that this is not the case. ..... S: I re-quoted the following in a message to Alex the other day. Plenty more on ultimate realities and no beings where this came from: Brahmajala Sutta & its commentaries in "The All-Embracing Net of Views", (B.Bodhi trans.): “85. ‘Herein, bhikkhus, some recluse or brahmin asserts the following doctrine and view: ‘The self, good sir, has material form; it is composed of the four primary elements and originates from father and mother. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.’ In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.’â€? ..... The other 6 kinds of annihilation view all end with the same last sentence about the belief of the ‘extermination of an existent being’. This idea of an ‘existent being’ is the real crux of the view. ..... In the sub-commentary notes (p.182), we read: “Since the destruction of the non-existent (asato) is impossible, the words ‘(annihilation) of an existent being’ are given signifying annihilation based on existence (atthibhaavanibandhano upacchedo).......â€? ..... A little later (p.183): “..For the assumption of a being arises when the compact of aggregates occurring in the form of a coninuum is not dissected (into its components). And since it is held that ‘the self exists so long as it is not annihilated,’ the assumption of annihilationism is based on the asumption of a being.’ “ ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #89953 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Only for the Wise to See sarahprocter... Dear Tep (& Han), > S: Wouldn't you agree that actually there are only dhammas now and the suttas all point to 'dhammas now'? If so, surely whatever we read about has to point us back to an understanding and awareness now. So what can such understanding know? >Only the various realities appearing now. >T: That was beautifully said, Sarah. As noted above, it is the same point repeatedly made by the various Buddhist authors, scholars, book publishers, meditators, retreat instructors, and Forest monks too. I absolutely agree with you and them, yet a more important point is whether we are ready for those dhammas appearing now; and if we are not, then how to get ready. .... S: Thank you for your kind and helpful comments, Tep. As you say, many people talking about awareness now or understanding dhammas, but this is where I think we need to be a lot more precise in order 'to get ready' or to have right understanding develop. I'm glad we agree so far. What are the realities appearing now, that sati-sampajanan can be aware of and know, would you say, Tep? ... >S: We need to delve deeper and deeper into terms such as 'dukkha' or 'satipatthana' to really understand what is meant by them, I find. ... When I read the Satipatthana Sutta, I think it is just these different realities that are being pointed to, according to different lifestyles and accumulations. We see that all possible realities (dhammas) are included - whether rupas or namas. the dhamma is very clear and complete.... for the wise to see. We need assistance to see it and this is what all the teachings are for. .... T: How do you "delve deeper" to get ready to see the dhammas, the way they really are? .... S: As Han said before, all the elements, all the realities appearing through the doorways are spoken of by the Buddha in a sutta such MN 10, Satipatthana Sutta. The four foundations include all realities and it is the awareness and understanding of them that is the "direct path for the purification of beings" as Han stressed. However, usually we're lost in our ideas about body, postures and people, so we fail to appreciate that the only realities appearing through the sense doors are the various rupas and that the only realities that can ever be known are such rupas or namas (or other rupas) appearing through the mind door. So I think we need to "delve deeper" to really understand what is real, what can be known at this very moment. For example, now visible object can be known, seeing can be known, but 'computer' can only be thought about. Again, hardness or heat or tacticle experience can be known, but 'finger' or 'arm' can only be thought about. I'd really like to hear where you both agree or disagree so far. Metta, Sarah ========= #89954 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 1:15 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/8/2008 11:53:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Also the Visuddhimagga is of great help. We learn by the Patthaana that each citta that falls away is a condition for the immediately succeeding one, this is proximity- condition, anantara-paccaya. Anantara means: no interval. ................................................... TG: The above always strikes me as a gross violation of the Buddha's principles of Dependent Origination. The Buddha did not say that -- by the ceasing of something, something else arises. He said the opposite. =========================== TG, as you know, don't accept the particulate (i.e., discrete) view of dhammas as having been taught by the Buddha. Also, I do agree with almost all that you wrote in this post of which I'm quoting just a bit. But with regard to this bit, I think you may be misreading Nina's point. Taking 'citta' to mean a state of mind consisting of consciousness of a particular object together with a variety of other operations pertaining to that object, two different cittas differing in even the slightest respect could not co-exist, and thus the ending of the first, i.e., any cessation of any feature of it, would be condition for succeeding cittas. (This notion of citta, BTW, doesn't require a packet perspective, though the Abhidhamma *does* adopt that perspective in its presenting the notion of immediate predecessor condition, or contiguity condition.) But the matter of a state falling away isn't Nina's point here, I believe. She doesn't say here that the falling away of the citta is a condition for "the next," though, as I pointed out, it isn't unreasonable to say that it is. What Nina says here is that the citta that falls away, that citta, is condition for "the next one." At every moment, the current state is among the conditions for all states that succeed it. That is true. (Best, IMO, not to speak of a "next one," though, for, like the real numbers, between any two states are other states, since change is constant.) So, she's emphasizing that one *citta*, not its falling away in particular, is condition for "the next." With metta, Howard #89955 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 5:50 am Subject: Re: Only for the Wise to See hantun1 Dear Sarah (and Tep), I thought I had said it all and there was nothing more to add. But you are very clever:>) You have mentioned my name in your reply to Tep, so that I would come in. [> Sarah: As Han said before, all the elements, all the realities appearing through the doorways are spoken of by the Buddha in a sutta such MN 10, Satipatthana Sutta. The four foundations include all realities and it is the awareness and understanding of them that is the "direct path for the purification of beings" as Han stressed. However, usually we're lost in our ideas about body, postures and people, so we fail to appreciate that the only realities appearing through the sense doors are the various rupas and that the only realities that can ever be known are such rupas or namas (or other rupas) appearing through the mind door.] I want to join in, but my level of discussion will be too low for you. There is a Burmese saying: “a wood-cuttings seller should not come and mix with the merchants doing business in diamonds and rubies.â€? The wood-cuttings are used for making Burmese cheroots, and a wood-cuttings seller is one of the lowest of the sellers. Thus a wood-cuttings seller should know his place! So also I should know my place and stay at the back. Your understanding is very deep while my understanding is very shallow. When I see water, you see hydrogen and oxygen; when I see salt you see sodium and chloride. There is a big gap in your understanding and mine. Therefore, kindly go ahead with your discussions with Tep, and I will just stay at the back and learn from your discussions. Respectfully, your humble partner Han #89956 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 6:42 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Corner: DN 33 Twos (26-29), Commentary, part 1. nilovg Dear friends, ----------------- Sutta: Failure of morality and view. Siilavipatti ca di.t.thivipatti ca. As to Failure of morality, the Co refers to dha.sa. 1361. We read (transl U Kyaw Khine,1368): The Co adds: this is destroying of siila, it is non-restraint (asa.mvaro). ------- Co: Siilavipattiiti ‘‘tattha katamaa siilavipatti? Kaayiko viitikkamo… pe… sabbampi dussiilya.m siilavipattii’’ti eva.m vutto siilavinaasako asa.mvaro. --------- N: Sa.mvara siila is the guarding of the six doors. When there is awareness and understanding of visible object, sound, and so on, as they appear through one of the six doors there is restraint from akusala. Siilavipatti is the opposite of this, it is non-restraint. -------- As to failure of view, di.t.thivipatti, the Co. refers to dha.sa. 1361. ------------------------ sutta: Attainment of morality and [right] view, Siilasampadaa ca di.t.thisampadaa ca. As to attainment of morality, the Co. refers to dha sa Pali 1363: What is moral achievement? Non-transgression in action, etc. As was said before with reference to soracca, temperance or gentleness, there is attainment of siila by undertaking it and fulfilling it. Here all restraint of siila is attainment of siila. It is the undertaking to a great extent. --------- Co Pali: Siilasampadaati ‘‘tattha katamaa siilasampadaa? Kaayiko aviitikkamo’’ti eva.m pubbe vuttasoraccameva siilassa sampaadanato paripuura.nato ‘‘siilasampadaa’’ti vutta.m. Ettha ca ‘‘sabbopi siilasa.mvaro siilasampadaa’’ti ida.m maanasikapariyaadaanattha.m vutta.m. ------- N: The Co refers to what is formerly said about gentleness, soracca, where the text was mentioned of dha. sa. 1342:< it is non- transgression in action, non-transgression in speech, non- transgression in both action and speech. This is called gentleness. Also all restraint of virtue is gentleness. This is said to be a gentle nature (suratabhaavo). When there is gentleness and kindness to all beings, it conditions the undertaking of siila to a great extent. One will not be inclined to harsh speech or to any speech or action that hurts others. ------------- The subco. adds to the words, ‘here is attainment of siila by undertaking it and fulfilling it’, that there is no deficiency in siila. The meaning of sampadaa is fulfilling, paripuura.na. As to the words ‘undertaking to a great extent’, the subco. states that siila is purified by the abandoning of covetousness etc. --------------- As to attainment of right view, di.t.thisampada, the Co. refers to the dha sa, Pali 1364, being the understanding that there is benefit in giving, in offering... and having realized this they proclaim it. There is such wisdom, understanding, understanding that is accomplishment of view. -------- Co: Di.t.thisampadaati ‘‘tattha katamaa di.t.thisampadaa? Atthi dinna.m atthi yi.t.tha.m…pe… sacchikatvaa pavedentiiti yaa evaruupaa pa~n~naa pajaananaa’’ti eva.m aagata.m di.t.thipaaripuuribhuuta.m ~naa.na.m. -------- N: It was said before (in the Pali text after mentioning six pairs), ‘or else the pair of attainment of síla and right view has been said to be mundane and supramundane, lokuttara. Co Pali: parato siiladi.t.thisampadaadukena ca lokiyalokuttaramissakaa dhammaa kathitaa. ---------- Siila of the eightfold Path that is lokuttara includes right action, right speech and right livelihood, arising together with the other Path factors and eradicating the basis of the opposites of these three, in accordance with the stage of enlightenment that is attained. Sammaadi.t.thi that is mundane is right understanding of a naama or ruupa that appears now. Sammaadi.t.thi as factor of the eightfold Path that is lokuttara is lokuttara pa~n~naa having nibbaana as object. Lokuttara pa~n~naa can arise only when mundane sammaadi.t.thi has been fully developed; that is, when conditioned dhammas are seen as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. ------- Nina. #89957 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 6:44 am Subject: Re: Ajahn Sumedho's Dhamma Talk: What's So Important scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "...And this is for anybody who is wondering how to combine normal daily life with paramatthas: Understanding that what we take for a person are fleeting namas and rupas does not mean that we say: O. it is all kamma and vipaaka, we do not go to docters, etc. To me it seems redundant to think of contradictions, how can it be, etc. Too much thinking with doubts does not help." Scott: Nor does it mean that one behaves towards one's child as if he were non-existent, or that one walks into walls, or doesn't see trees, or whatever else. Sincerely, Scott. #89958 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 6:49 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities nilovg Hi Howard and TG, Op 9-sep-2008, om 14:15 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > She doesn't say here that the falling away of the citta is a > condition for > "the next," though, as I pointed out, it isn't unreasonable to say > that it > is. What Nina says here is that the citta that falls away, that > citta, is > condition for "the next one." At every moment, the current state is > among the > conditions for all states that succeed it. That is true. (Best, > IMO, not to > speak of a "next one," though, for, like the real numbers, between > any two states > are other states, since change is constant.) So, she's emphasizing > that one > *citta*, not its falling away in particular, is condition for "the > next." ------- N: I just quote from my Conditions: < As regards absence-condition, natthi-paccaya, this condition is similar to proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya, and contiguity- condition, samanantara-condition. The citta which falls away conditions the arising of the next one by way of proximity-condition and contiguity-condition. However, the next citta can only arise when the preceding one has fallen away, when it is absent. Absence does not mean that the citta was never there; it means that the citta that has just fallen away assists by its absence the citta arising next to it; after it has fallen away it gives the next citta the opportunity to arise without any interval.> Nina. #89959 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 6:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Only for the Wise to See nilovg Dear Han, Op 9-sep-2008, om 14:50 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Your understanding is very deep while my understanding is very > shallow. ------- N: Han, do not compare, you know what kind of citta does so? As I said before, I am always glad to read your input. Everyone has his own style and that makes it imteresting, makes me laugh sometimes. Nina. #89960 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 12:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions regarding Ignorance nilovg Dear Jessica and Han, Op 8-sep-2008, om 15:13 heeft jessicamui het volgende geschreven: > The proper question is that if an "uninstructed > worlding" is doing a good deed, s/he doesn't have ignorance in some > of the mind moments according to the fact that "ignorance doesn't > arise with kusla citta". But if the definition of Ignorance is not > knowing the 4 noble truth, dependent origination, etc, then for an > uninstructed worlding, they won't know the Dhamma through making > dana. So how can they not be "ignorant" for any moment ? ------- N: There is the latent tendency of ignorance, avijjanusaya, not yet eradicated until arahatship. Latent tendencies do not arise, but they are lying dormant in each citta, from moment to moment. Thus also when performing dana and the citta is kusala citta, there is still the latent tendency of ignorance. Latent tendencies do not arise but they can condition the arising of akusala citta at any time. Ignorance can only be eradicated when understanding has been fully developed up to the degree of arahatship. But even now when we begin to develop understanding of realities, we are on the way eventually leading to its eradication. Is there anything not clear yet about this subject, it is a good question. Nina. #89961 From: "colette" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 10:48 am Subject: Sunna-loka ksheri3 Good Day Group, > >We don't have any sort of insight into ultimate reality, colette: could it be that we do not choose to have insight into "Ultimate REality"? I mean why is it that death only becomes such an issue at the later stages of life? For instance people do not join forums, such as this, that specifically focus on such abstract concepts as DEATH, until the later years of their lives when DEATH IS BECOMING A VERY BIG PLAYER IN THEIR UPCOMING PERFORMANCES? We certainly have to give the objectivity of "Choice" recognition here. <.....> The mater is "choice" and the choice is to focus on the actions a person has during the course of their existance, which have an effect on the future dharma. Does a person have the ability to choose? To choose anything? <....> COGNITION IS THE FIRST STEP and if you cognize a falsehood to be truth well then you've missed the boat. <....> "Emptiness isn't some sort of dogmatic principle or philosophical ideal. Rather, it's a way of experiencing reality without the filter of 'self' -- a self which manifests as the various concepts and other forms of self-seeking that we habitually identify with." some people, however, fail to cognize that Shunyata is just that Shunyata or sunya, empty. They cling to the doctrine forever since they cannot release it and let it show another person the/it's truths. Thus we have the Emptiness of Emptiness. thank you. toodles, colette <...> > I really agree with you Phil. I don't think anyone trully believes > that ultimately there are no trees, no cars moving at 100 mph, no > accidents and so on. <...> #89962 From: "colette" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:17 pm Subject: Sukin and Moderators, please acknowledge! ksheri3 Hey, I just got done with taking a creationist to task in a "pagan" a hermetics forum, and read this post. Damn, this is the exact wording that would truely benefit the entire group although I run the risk of being sensored by the moderators there. Do I have the permission to copy and paste this Msg.? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Tep (& Han), > > > S: Wouldn't you agree that actually there are only dhammas now and > the suttas all point to 'dhammas now'? If so, surely whatever we read > about has to point us back to an understanding and awareness now. So > what can such understanding know? > >Only the various realities appearing now. > > >T: That was beautifully said, Sarah. > As noted above, it is the same point repeatedly made by the various > Buddhist authors, scholars, book publishers, meditators, retreat > instructors, and Forest monks too. I absolutely agree with you and > them, yet a more important point is whether we are ready for those > dhammas appearing now; and if we are not, then how to get ready. > .... > S: Thank you for your kind and helpful comments, Tep. As you say, many people talking about awareness now or understanding dhammas, but this is where I think we need to be a lot more precise in order 'to get ready' or to have right understanding develop. I'm glad we agree so far. > > What are the realities appearing now, that sati-sampajanan can be aware of and know, would you say, Tep? > ... > > >S: We need to delve deeper and deeper into terms such as 'dukkha' > or 'satipatthana' to really understand what is meant by them, I > find. ... When I read the Satipatthana Sutta, I think it is just > these different realities that are being pointed to, according to > different lifestyles and accumulations. > We see that all possible realities (dhammas) are included - whether > rupas or namas. the dhamma is very clear and complete.... for the > wise to see. We need assistance to see it and this is what all the > teachings are for. > .... > T: How do you "delve deeper" to get ready to see the dhammas, the way > they really are? > .... > S: As Han said before, all the elements, all the realities appearing through the doorways are spoken of by the Buddha in a sutta such MN 10, Satipatthana Sutta. The four foundations include all realities and it is the awareness and understanding of them that is the "direct path for the purification of beings" as Han stressed. However, usually we're lost in our ideas about body, postures and people, so we fail to appreciate that the only realities appearing through the sense doors are the various rupas and that the only realities that can ever be known are such rupas or namas (or other rupas) appearing through the mind door. > > So I think we need to "delve deeper" to really understand what is real, what can be known at this very moment. For example, now visible object can be known, seeing can be known, but 'computer' can only be thought about. Again, hardness or heat or tacticle experience can be known, but 'finger' or 'arm' can only be thought about. > > I'd really like to hear where you both agree or disagree so far. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > #89963 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:36 pm Subject: Re: Getting comfort from deep teachings that one doesn't have true insight into? truth_aerator Dear Phil and all, Buddhism is escapism from Dukkha. And there is nothing wrong with that, only from Mara's POV. No need to remain in the prison with make- believe that "all is well" and such. No need to have a first class trip in Titanic. The important thing is to escape Mara for ever and not temporary. Best wishes, May we all escape, Alex #89964 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 2:38 pm Subject: Re: Questions regarding Ignorance hantun1 Dear Nina (and Jessica), > Nina: There is the latent tendency of ignorance, avijjanusaya, not yet eradicated until arahatship. Latent tendencies do not arise, but they are lying dormant in each citta, from moment to moment. Thus also when performing dana and the citta is kusala citta, there is still the latent tendency of ignorance. Latent tendencies do not arise but they can condition the arising of akusala citta at any time. Ignorance can only be eradicated when understanding has been fully developed up to the degree of arahatship. But even now when we begin to develop understanding of realities, we are on the way eventually leading to its eradication. Is there anything not clear yet about this subject, it is a good question. Han: I cannot say for Jessica, but I am satisfied with your excellent answer. But can I ask you another related question, please? Out of eight Mahaa-kusala cittas, four are not associated with knowledge (~naa.na-vippayutta). The opposite of knowledge (~naa.na) is ignorance (avijjaa). Therefore, if there is no knowledge in those four mahaa-kusala cittas, can you not say there is ignorance in those four mahaa-kusala cittas? What I am asking is not the tendency of ignorance (avijjaanusaya) “leadingâ€? to akusala citta, but the presence of ignorance even in the kusala citta itself (which, of course, might sound like a contradiction)? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #89967 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 3:08 pm Subject: Jhana as one of the Requisites for Nibbana. Patis truth_aerator Dear Tep and all, > "Tep" wrote: > > > Hi Alex, - > > In your opinion do you think the following sutta states that jhana is > a requisite for Nibbana? I think it does. There are other suttas on > Nibbana (that I recently posted here) that also give the same message. > Dear Tep and all, N8P is the requirment for Nibbana and it includes Jhana. Furthermore it is very often stated in Patis that 1st Jhana is letting go of hindrances. Does anyone here seriously think that they can achieve ANY magga-phala (or even nana) without removing hindrances, at least for a short period of time? For example: Patis V - on Liberation 48 What is Jhana Liberation? Renunciation is ignited (jhaayati), thus it is jhana; it consumes (jhapeti) zeal for sensual-desires, thus it is jhana; being ignited (jhatanto), it is liberated, thus it is jhana liberation; consuming (jhapento), it is liberated, thus it is jhana liberation; they are ignited (jhayanti) [namely, good] ideas; they are consumed (jhapenti) [namely,] defilements; he knows the ignited (jhata) and the consumed (jhapa), thus it is jhana liberation. The stream entry path... [see Tr. 1 $442] The Arahant path is ignited thus it is jhana; it consumes all defilements, thus there is Jhana... This is Jhana liberation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ok I am tired typing all of this from Patis (2002 Nanamoli Trans) pg 246 If we go literal, all 8 Jhanas *may* be required even for stream entry path. If someone can achieve with less, good for them! Best wishes, Alex #89968 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 3:39 pm Subject: Re: no e-card from no where! kenhowardau Hi Herman, I take the following to be a statement rather than a question: -------- H: > You sound like an alcoholic. (I don't have a problem with alcoholics). From what you say, ultimate reality is a view you adopt, an attitude you assume, a bottle you purchase, a pill you pop, as a response and antidote to dukkha. Hardly satisfactory when the hangover hits. -------- Yes, to your mind, I seem like someone who regards ultimate reality as a personal preference. Actually, I don't regard it that way at all. I believe your confusion arises because you can't see how ultimate reality could be *anything but* a personal preference. You come from a religious, Christian, background. One thing I have noticed about Christians is their notion of a personally-selected God. One Christian will say his God is (for example) a God of Love, while another will say his is a God of Justice - and so on. There are as many Gods as there are Christians - gentle, stern, forgiving, vengeful, close, distant, simple, complicated . . you name it, the One True God fits that description. The same attitude carries over when Christians convert to Buddhism. They select their preferred Buddhism. They pick through the texts of the various conflicting schools and garner-together a unique creation that suits their requirements. Then they blithely compare their chosen Buddhisms with their friends' chosen Buddhisms - as if it wasn't the most ridiculous state of affairs imaginable! Not only former Christians but modern-day Buddhists in general tend to be that way. Look at the meditators at DSG, for example. The only argument they uniformly maintain ("the good work") is that Buddhism is a religion that can be practised at will. (Just like Christianity and Islamism (etc) can be practised at will.) I think the only teaching they can't abide is the one found solely in the ancient Theravadin texts - as pointed to by K Sujin and friends. Ken H #89969 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 4:12 pm Subject: Re: no e-card from no where! truth_aerator Hi Ken and all, >"kenhowardau" > wrote: > They select their preferred Buddhism. They pick through the texts >of the various conflicting schools and garner-together a unique >creation that suits their requirements. modern-day Buddhists in >general tend to be that way. Look at the meditators at DSG, for >example. The only argument they uniformly maintain .) > > I think the only teaching they can't abide is the one found solely >in the ancient Theravadin texts - as pointed to by K Sujin and >friends. > > Ken H I am happy to change my views if somebody provides me with enough and sufficient sutta evidence. Meditator Alex =============================================================== What is Jhana Liberation? Renunciation is ignited (jhaayati), thus it is jhana; it consumes (jhapeti) zeal for sensual-desires, thus it is jhana; being ignited (jhatanto), it is liberated, thus it is jhana liberation; consuming (jhapento), it is liberated, thus it is jhana liberation; they are ignited (jhayanti) [namely, good] ideas; they are consumed (jhapenti) [namely,] defilements; he knows the ignited (jhata) and the consumed (jhapa), thus it is jhana liberation. Patis V - on Liberation 48 he Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html Jhana: IS the path to awakening - MN36 Is what Buddha awakened to. AN9.42 & SN2.7 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.042.than.html Is Practiced by awakened ones: Dhp 23 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.02.than.html#dhp-23 Leads to 4 fruits: From Stream to Arhatship. (DN29) Is Right Concentration - SN 45.8 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html Ending of Mental Fermentations depend on it http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html Samadhi is proximate condition to "knowledge and vision of things as they really are" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.023.bodh.html Jhana is the only 4 Meditative absorptions thay Buddha praised. MN108 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.108.than.html Goes together with discernment (panna): Dhp 372 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.than.html#dhp- 372 Is a mark of a great discernment, great man http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.035.than.html Jhana is the escape from confinement. AN 9.42 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.042.than.html Released through Panna (Pannavimutti) = Jhanas 1-9 AN 9.44 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html 7 Parts of Noble 8 Fold path are Support for Noble concentration (Jhana) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html MN Suttas that mention Jhana: 1,4, 6, 8, 13, 19, 35, 30, 31, 36, 38, 43, 45, 53, 53, 59, 64, 65, 66, 76, 77, 78, 79, 85, 106, 107, 108, 111, 112, 113, 119, 121, 128, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141,152 DN# 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,16,17,22, 19,26,27, 29, 31, 32 Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo Anguttara Nikaya The Lion Roar text iii, 414, Vi, vi, 64 "Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.145.than.html #89970 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 4:24 pm Subject: Formal Meditation. Lets check Patis truth_aerator Hi Ken and all, >--- "kenhowardau" wrote: > >I think the only teaching they can't abide is the one found solely >in the ancient Theravadin texts - as pointed to by K Sujin and >friends. > > Ken H Anapanasati in Patis: Here a bhikkhu , gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, ever midful he breathes in, mindful he breathes out. 186. 'Forest': having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest. 187. 'Root of a tree': where the bhikkhu's seat is prepared, or his bed or his chair or his mattress or his mat or his piece of hide or his spread of grass or his spread of leaves, or his spread of straw, there he walks or stands or sits or lies down. 188. 'Empty': unfrequented by laymen or by those gone forth into homelessness. 189. 'Place': dwelling, lean-to, mansion, villa, cave. 190.'Sits down; having folded his legs crosswise': he is seated, having folded his legs crosswise. 191.'Set his body erect': his body is erect, [firmly] placed , properly disposed. Treatise on Breathing ================== Sounds like a "formal practice" :) . Thus we are to take these instructions literally "And when, Aggivessana, the ariyan disciple is possessed of mindfulness and clear consciousness, then the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a forest, at the root of a tree, on a mountain slope, in a wilderness, in a hill-cave, a cemetery, a forest haunt, in the open or on a heap of straw.' He chooses a remote lodging in the forest... or on a heap of straw. Returning from alms-gathering, after the meal, he sits down cross-legged, holding the back erect, having made mindfulness rise up in front of him, " [alex: then s/he cleans hindrances, develops satipatthana + jhana, triple knowledge & liberation] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.125.horn.html Best wishes, Alex #89971 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 6:26 pm Subject: Anatta & 4 Nutriments of life. Dont forget about Dukkha truth_aerator Hello all. One of the important things that I notice is often being missed in philosophical developments of Buddhism (various abhidhammas, various mahayana works and new interpretations of Buddhism, etc) is the lack of emphasis on inconstancy AND very importantly, dukkha (suffering, stress, hard to bear). The anatta arguments for the most part always start with Anicca (which contrary to popular opinion isn't simply change. It is undependable nature of aggregates), then proceed to DUKKHA and only then, to Anatta. Anicca if it simply means "impermanence" or "change" wouldn't make much sense for most, as very often change is exciting and stimulating to worldlings. However if change is actually inconstancy (as in the body being healthy today and totally wrecked tomorrow) and unreliability, then no wonder it is dukkha. The big thing in Buddha's teaching is the emphasis on Dukkha, a universal fact of experience, not the ultimate things that exist only according to one Abhidhamma out of many. So studying carefully, the Anattalakkhana suttas aim very much at showing Anatta NOT through philosophical and abstract arguments, but with relevant and affective facts as given in experience, totally in line with 4NT. Another interesting sutta is 4 Nutriments of life. One can't help but to notice the emphasis not on "ultimate particles" rage about which was popular in india 2000 years ago and now in the west, 2000 years later with no ultimates found yet, but the emphasis on SUFFERING. ========================================== Some interesting quotes from 4 Nutriments of Life. Looking back to the Buddha's similes for the four nutriments, we are struck by the fact that all four evoke pictures of extreme suffering and danger. They depict quite unusual situations of greatest agony. Considering the fact that the daily process of nutrition, physical and mental, is such a very humdrum function in life, those extraordinary similes are very surprising and even deeply disturbing. And they obviously were meant to be disquieting. They are meant to break through the unthinking complacency in which these so common functions of life are performed and viewed: eating, perceiving, willing, and cognizing. The contemplations on the four nutriments, as presented in these pages, cut at the very roots of the attachment to life. To pursue these contemplations radically and methodically will be a grave step, advisable only for those who are determined to strive for the final cessation of craving and, therefore, are willing to face all consequences which that path of practice may bring for the direction of their present life and thought. Edible Food: Simile: A couple, foodless in the midst of a desert, eat their little child, to enable them to reach their destination. Phassa(Contact) Simile: A skinned cow, wherever she stands, will be ceaselessly attacked by the insects and other creatures living in the vicinity. Manosancetana Simile: a man dragged by two others towards and into a pit of glowing embers. Vinnana Simile: punishment of a criminal who thrice daily is pierced with a hundred spears [100 each time; morning, noon, evening]. ------ Monks, when a monk becomes entirely dispassionate towards one thing, when his lust for it entirely fades away, when he is entirely liberated from it, when he sees the complete ending of it, then he is one who, after fully comprehending the Goal, makes an end of suffering here and now. What one thing? "All beings subsist by nutriment." When a monk becomes entirely dispassionate towards this one thing (nutriment), when his lust for it entirely fades away, when he is entirely liberated from it, and when he sees the complete ending of it, then, O monks, he is one who, after fully comprehending the Goal, makes an end of suffering here and now. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.027x.nypo.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel105.html =============== In MN64 the insight reflections during/after Jhana also have a very strong Dukkha tone to them, rather than abstract philosophical theorizing. [All 5 aggregates]are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/064-maha-malunkhyaputta-e1.htm Notice the vivid description of insight development. Not something abstracted from experience, but experience itself aimed very much at Anicca & Dukkha aspects.... It is so unfortunate that most, if not all, Buddhist teachings today focus too much on "anatta", especially of things internal & external and not enough on 2 PRIOR aspects on which Anatta teaching is based... Anicca and more specifically -> Dukkha. Best wishes, Alex #89972 From: "Tep" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 7:13 pm Subject: Re: Only for the Wise to See .. Less Book Recitation dhammanusarin Dear Sarah(and Han), - After so many years of book discussion, I think it is now the time to discuss the Dhamma from our own experiences, especially about the practice to establish mindfulness in the four references. I think now it is at least a hundred times better to discuss how the Dhamma is realized than the Dhamma that is heard or read. > S: What are the realities appearing now, that sati-sampajanan can be aware of and know, would you say, Tep? T: We should discuss Satipatthana from the realization perspective, not recalling or reciting from a tape or a book or the suttas. The four references (kaya, vedana, citta, dhamma) are categorized into the various objects of mindfulness and awareness as described in MN 10 and DN 22 (e.g. in-and-out breaths, the four body postures, the four basic elements, the 32 body parts, the three feelings, the five aggregates, the five hindrances, the seven factors for Awakening, the four noble truths). But these objects are not necessarily "realities appearing now" or ultimate realities that arise and fall away in a fraction of a nano-second. Some of these "objects" are pannatti that can be observed by ordinary people who do not have the capability to experience (by citta) realities in a fraction of a nano-second. ....................... > >T: How do you "delve deeper" to get ready to see the dhammas, the way they really are? .... >S: As Han said before, all the elements, all the realities appearing through the doorways are spoken of by the Buddha in a sutta such MN 10, Satipatthana Sutta. The four foundations include all realities and it is the awareness and understanding of them that is the "direct path for the purification of beings" as Han stressed. T: I asked the question above because I was more interested in your own experience, Sarah. Besides, you have been teaching & reciting from the books for so many years now. Isn't it better to be less dependent on the books? ...................... >S: However, usually we're lost in our ideas about body, postures and people, so we fail to appreciate that the only realities appearing through the sense doors are the various rupas and that the only realities that can ever be known are such rupas or namas (or other rupas) appearing through the mind door. T: I know you know that there is a big gap between book knowledge and knowledge (~nana) from direct knowing, experiencing. So, how do you rise above that failure and come to "appreciate" those realities by direct knowledge? Please tell me about your direct sensing (seeing, hearing, ..., knowing) experience of the four references of Satipatthana, Sarah. How do you know that you actually "touch" rupas and namas by citta/cognizance, not by thinking of them by names or recalling their descriptions from the books and audio tapes? ...................... >S: So I think we need to "delve deeper" to really understand what is real, what can be known at this very moment. For example, now visible object can be known, seeing can be known, but 'computer' can only be thought about. Again, hardness or heat or tacticle experience can be known, but 'finger' or 'arm' can only be thought about. T: I agree that in principle "now visible object CAN be known, seeing CAN be known", but I want to know how you actually know a visible object differently from someone who has not read Abhidhamma in Daily Life? More important, what is that knowledge known in Buddhism? Is it called namarupa-pariccheda~nana? .................... >S: I'd really like to hear where you both agree or disagree so far. T: So far I only have lots of questions (as shown above). Tep === #89973 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 3:28 pm Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities TGrand458@... Hi Howard Excellent comments! Here's my problem with -- "the falling away of one citta being the condition for the next citta." Basically, from my understanding, phenomena formulate (take form) as they do, due to actively supporting conditions...not the lack of something. In my view, phenomena don't so much "fall away," but rather, are "pushed or driven away." It isn't the end of one conscious moment that allows for the next to arise. It is the dynamic flow of phenomena that continuously alter phenomena. If, for example, I'm meditating on "blue," then hear a loud sound that disturbs concentration and causes it to avert toward the sound, it isn't the "blue consciousness" falling away that caused the change, its to "new" dynamic experience that did so. It displaces the previous experience. Of course phenomena, especially our minds, are usually in continuous motion, so consciousness is usually flipping all around all the time. (This is just a rough example, please be kind.) ;-) This outlook on the dynamics of conditionality WILL accord with the Buddha's principles of conditionality -- This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises, etc. This may seem like a nit-picky point. But I think its a big point because it is a viewpoint that sees conditionality as cause for occurrences...as opposed to "something's own nature." Even a whiff of this latter viewpoint spells "dhammic death" IMO. Obviously I don't wish to deal with the term "cittas." But can two or more states of consciousness exist at the same time in one person? Beats the hell out of me. Its seems like the senses that aren't actively processing (conscious) are sub-conscious in some regard in order to interrupt the "active process." This is not something I'm deeply concerned with though. Tentatively, I'm OK with the one conscious stream at a time. TG In a message dated 9/9/2008 6:17:08 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/8/2008 11:53:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: Also the Visuddhimagga is of great help. We learn by the Patthaana that each citta that falls away is a condition for the immediately succeeding one, this is proximity- condition, anantara-paccaya. Anantara means: no interval. ................................................... TG: The above always strikes me as a gross violation of the Buddha's principles of Dependent Origination. The Buddha did not say that -- by the ceasing of something, something else arises. He said the opposite. =========================== TG, as you know, don't accept the particulate (i.e., discrete) view of dhammas as having been taught by the Buddha. Also, I do agree with almost all that you wrote in this post of which I'm quoting just a bit. But with regard to this bit, I think you may be misreading Nina's point. Taking 'citta' to mean a state of mind consisting of consciousness of a particular object together with a variety of other operations pertaining to that object, two different cittas differing in even the slightest respect could not co-exist, and thus the ending of the first, i.e., any cessation of any feature of it, would be condition for succeeding cittas. (This notion of citta, BTW, doesn't require a packet perspective, though the Abhidhamma *does* adopt that perspective in its presenting the notion of immediate predecessor condition, or contiguity condition.) But the matter of a state falling away isn't Nina's point here, I believe. She doesn't say here that the falling away of the citta is a condition for "the next," though, as I pointed out, it isn't unreasonable to say that it is. What Nina says here is that the citta that falls away, that citta, is condition for "the next one." At every moment, the current state is among the conditions for all states that succeed it. That is true. (Best, IMO, not to speak of a "next one," though, for, like the real numbers, between any two states are other states, since change is constant.) So, she's emphasizing that one *citta*, not its falling away in particular, is condition for "the next." With metta, Howard #89974 From: "Tep" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 8:05 pm Subject: Re: Jhana as one of the Requisites for Nibbana. Patis dhammanusarin Hi, Alex (Jon), - Patisambhidamagga is a very good reference that gives an extensive coverage of the Dhamma in both the Suttas and the Abhidhamma Pitaka. > Alex: > The stream entry path... [see Tr. 1 #442] > The Arahant path is ignited thus it is jhana; it consumes all > defilements, thus there is Jhana... > This is Jhana liberation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > ok I am tired typing all of this from Patis (2002 Nanamoli Trans) > pg 246 > > If we go literal, all 8 Jhanas *may* be required even for stream > entry path. If someone can achieve with less, good for them! > > T: Importance of jhana is not seen, never seen, by those who have misapprehension and misinterpretation of the Buddha's Teachings, or misguided. The following dialogue is just one instance that shows how misguidance may be caused by commentaries. Hi, Jon (Attn: Alex, Howard ...), - I am very surprised by the wrong understanding you have shown, Jon ! This is not a language problem; it is a ditthi that twists the simple sutta such that your understanding is 180-degree opposite to the original truth. I think you should blame both commentary quotes AA and AT for having caused such wrong understanding. .......................... > [2] "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As > he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it � his fetters are > abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > T: This case is opposite to Case 1. Vipassana first, then samatha. > Again, both samatha & vipassana are required for arahantship. > Jon: The Nyanaponnika/Bodhi anthology quotes from the commentary ("AA") and sub-commentary ("AT") on this second case: <> Jon: I take the reference to "one who makes insight the vehicle" to be a reference to the person who attains enlightenment without first having attained mundane jhana. ................... T: Commentary AA says the meditator first gains insight understanding and he then attains "concentration". This comm. avoids the term tranquillity (samatha); his use of the term concentration, which means "samadhi" to you, gives you the impression that there is no samatha. In your mind tranquillity or samatha is equated to jhana that you do not approve. So you end up with the thought "there is no samatha". That is conditioned by a ditthi : "I want to believe what I want to believe" ! The commentary AT puts his own words, "one who makes insight the vehicle", in place of the original words, "a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight". By doing so, he twists the original words in order to abolish the importance of samatha and makes it sound as if vipassana is the ONLY means for the arahant path. Tep === #89975 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 9:01 pm Subject: Ideal Solitude! bhikkhu0 Friends: Secluded Ideal Solitude: They once asked a Bhikkhu just named 'Elder': How, Venerable Elder, is one living completely alone? Regarding this, the Elder responded: All that is past, this one has left all behind! All that is future, this one has all relinquished! All that is present now, this one has completely removed any desire and lust for... The intelligent, who has conquered all, who understands all, Who are from all states detached, disengaged, & unsoiled, Who has given up all, released by the removal of craving, Such One, I call: 'Living Alone'... Comment: In bad company with one's own greed, anger & confusion, one is quite far from being alone...!!! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 282-4 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Ideal Solitude! Have a nice secluded day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #89976 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Sep 9, 2008 11:18 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,299 & 300 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 299. As it spins thus: (1) As to the source in the [four] truths, (2) As to function, (3) prevention, (4) similes, (5) Kinds of profundity, and (6) methods, It should be known accordingly. 300. 1. Herein, ['as to source in the truths':] profitable and unprofitable kamma are stated in the Saccavibha"nga (Vbh. 106f.) without distinction as the origin of suffering, and so formations due to ignorance [stated thus] 'With ignorance as condition there are formations' are the second truth with the second truth as source. Consciousness due to formations is the first truth with the second truth as source. The states beginning with mentality-materiality and ending with resultant feeling, due respectively to consciousness, etc., are the first truth with the first truth as source. Craving due to feeling is the second truth with the first truth as source. Clinging due to craving is the second truth with the second truth as source. Becoming due to clinging is the first and second truths with the second truth as source. Birth due to becoming is the first truth with the second truth as source. Ageing-and-death due to birth is the first truth with the first truth as source. This in the first place is how [the Wheel of Becoming] should be known 'as to ... source in the four truths' in whichever way is appropriate. *************************** 299. tayidameva.m bhamamaana.m, saccappabhavato kiccaa, vaara.naa upamaahi ca. gambhiiranayabhedaa ca, vi~n~naatabba.m yathaaraha.m.. 300. tattha yasmaa kusalaakusala.m kamma.m avisesena samudayasaccanti saccavibha"nge vutta.m, tasmaa avijjaapaccayaa sa"nkhaaraati avijjaaya sa"nkhaaraa dutiyasaccappabhava.m dutiyasacca.m. sa"nkhaarehi vi~n~naa.na.m dutiyasaccappabhava.m pa.thamasacca.m. vi~n~naa.naadiihi naamaruupaadiini vipaakavedanaapariyosaanaani pa.thamasaccappabhava.m pa.thamasacca.m. vedanaaya ta.nhaa pa.thamasaccappabhava.m dutiyasacca.m. ta.nhaaya upaadaana.m dutiyasaccappabhava.m dutiyasacca.m. upaadaanato bhavo dutiyasaccappabhava.m pa.thamadutiyasaccadvaya.m. bhavato jaati dutiyasaccappabhava.m pa.thamasacca.m. jaatiyaa jaraamara.na.m pa.thamasaccappabhava.m pa.thamasaccanti eva.m taavida.m saccappabhavato vi~n~naatabba.m yathaaraha.m. #89977 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:06 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Vism XX, 'Knowledge of What is/is not the Path' nilovg Dear Ken and Larry, Op 9-sep-2008, om 2:38 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > "The material" is categorised in four ways - (a) kamma-born, (b) > consciousness-born, (c) nutriment-born, and (d) temperature born. As I > said, we are up to (b), and we are considering the meaning of > "consciousness" in this regard. There are 89 types of consciousness. > > Over to you Larry - or anyone else who has some thoughts or questions > to add. (Let's not make Nina and Sarah do all the work.) ------- N: It is beneficial to know details about the many kinds of cittas, otherwise we think of one citta and take it for mine. Citta originates rupas, and an example is postures and speech intimation and bodily intimation (gestures). We learn that rupa originated by citta arises at the same time as citta. This cures us from the idea that citta 'orders' the arising of rupas. When walking, assuming postures, it is hard to get rid of the idea of I am walking, I am going to sit crosslegged. At the moment of its arising citta conditions the rupas we call walking or sitting. It originates them already, before we can think, I am going to do this or that. If we forget this, we merely read about anatta and repeat the word anatta, instead of beginning to understand its meaning. At the moment of enlightenment of the first stage, the wrong view of self is eradicated, but this cannot be achieved if there is no beginning of eliminating just a little of wrong view, day by day. Some people find details superfluous, even confusing. But we today do need many, many details. Nina. #89978 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:49 am Subject: Pilgrimage in Sri Lanka, Ch 10, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, “Forgetting about oneself conditions the cultivation of kusala”, Khun Sujin said. It is inspiring to be with people like Khun Sujin and Khun Duangduen who are so kind, patient and considerate. Khun Duangduen knew that small gestures of kindness are important, she did not overlook such things. Every day she spoke with Khun Sujin about giving: what would they give today and to whom? They had brought from Thailand many useful gifts for the monks. Khun Duangduen looked all day long with kindness at other people and she was ready to help at any time. I still think of her generosity as an inspiring example. Someone’s example can be more helpful than words. Khun Sujin pointed out that the development of generosity helps us to have less attachment to our possessions. If we do not develop generosity, how can we ever become detached from the five khandhas, from our body and our mind? We cling most of all to our body and our mind, we do not want to lose them. To be without lobha, dosa and moha is patience. If we do not develop kusala now, there are more conditions for akusala, Khun Sujin said. Phra Dhammadhara reminded me that we have to develop patience when we are with people and when we are alone. When we are in the company of people we are bound to have attachment and aversion. Then there is no patience. We should develop mettå and karunå instead of having attachment and aversion. When we are alone we may be attached to being alone, or we may dislike being alone. In that situation we also have to be patient. If there is mindfulness of any reality which appears, it does not matter whether we are with people or without them. What difference does it make? In reality there are no people, only nåma and rúpa. All that matters is being mindful of them in order to see them as they are. Are we impatient when we do not seem to be making progress in wisdom? Mindfulness of nåma and rúpa should be developed with patience, in the course of many lives. If we develop patience in all the situations of daily life, we shall also have more patience as regards the development of vipassanå. We shall have patience to study with mindfulness any reality which appears now. We shall not be tired of studying nåma and rúpa over and over again. It never is enough! ******* Nina. #89979 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:03 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 9/9/2008 10:29:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard Excellent comments! Here's my problem with -- "the falling away of one citta being the condition for the next citta." Basically, from my understanding, phenomena formulate (take form) as they do, due to actively supporting conditions...not the lack of something. In my view, phenomena don't so much "fall away," but rather, are "pushed or driven away." -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that the point is that for two things that cannot coexist, when one is present, a necessary condition for the other to occur is that the present one should cease. Trivial conventional example: For a car to move into my lane, it is necessary that I move ahead or drop back to provide the opening (though often I've seen lane-changing drivers be unaware of that fact! LOL!) ---------------------------------------------- It isn't the end of one conscious moment that allows for the next to arise. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: For me, that *is* part of the facts, although I don't accept the "next" aspect. I would sooner say that for subsequent states to occur, the present state must cease. ---------------------------------------------- It is the dynamic flow of phenomena that continuously alter phenomena. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: And that is a continuous ceasing just as much as it is a continuous arising. If ever the ceasing were to halt, that would be ultimate death, which, of course, is some folks' idea of nibbana. --------------------------------------------------- If, for example, I'm meditating on "blue," then hear a loud sound that disturbs concentration and causes it to avert toward the sound, it isn't the "blue consciousness" falling away that caused the change, its to "new" dynamic experience that did so. It displaces the previous experience. Of course phenomena, especially our minds, are usually in continuous motion, so consciousness is usually flipping all around all the time. (This is just a rough example, please be kind.) ;-) --------------------------------------------------- Howard: The details of the conditionality are difficult to pin down, but it is clear to me that had the seeing not stopped, the hearing could not have occurred, and so the cessation of the seeing does serve as a requisite condition for the hearing to occur. --------------------------------------------------- This outlook on the dynamics of conditionality WILL accord with the Buddha's principles of conditionality -- This being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises, etc. This may seem like a nit-picky point. But I think its a big point because it is a viewpoint that sees conditionality as cause for occurrences...as opposed to "something's own nature." Even a whiff of this latter viewpoint spells "dhammic death" IMO. Obviously I don't wish to deal with the term "cittas." But can two or more states of consciousness exist at the same time in one person? Beats the hell out of me. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't believe so. --------------------------------------------------- Its seems like the senses that aren't actively processing (conscious) are sub-conscious in some regard in order to interrupt the "active process." This is not something I'm deeply concerned with though. Tentatively, I'm OK with the one conscious stream at a time. TG =========================== With metta, Howard #89980 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sukin and Moderators, please acknowledge! sarahprocter... Hi Colette, I'm glad to see you're following so many of the threads here. --- On Wed, 10/9/08, colette wrote: >Hey, I just got done with taking a creationist to task in a "pagan" a hermetics forum, and read this post. >Damn, this is the exact wording that would truely benefit the entire group although I run the risk of being sensored by the moderators there. >Do I have the permission to copy and paste this Msg.? .... S: As far as I'm concerned, you (or anyone else) are very welcome to copy and paste any message of mine. Please just add the link. Metta, Sarah #89981 From: "connie" Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:16 am Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,299 & 300 nichiconn Path of Purity, pp.700-701 (dsg #89976): (By way of origin in truths.) And this wheel of becoming, thus revolving - By way of origin in truths, function, And simile, prevention, different kinds Of deep methods should fittingly be known. Herein because moral and immoral karma have been stated without distinction in the Saccavigha"nga {Vibha"nga, p.106 f} as the truth of origin, therefore (be it understood that) as stated in "Conditioned by ignorance activities come to pass," through ignorance the activities are of the second truth having the second truth as their cause; through the activities consciousness and is of the first truth due to the second truth. {Remembering that the first truth is the result and the second truth is the cause.} Through consciousness and so on the factors beginning with name-and-form and ending in resultant feeling are of the first truth due to the first; through feeling craving is of the second truth due to the first. Through craving grasping is of the second truth due to the second; through grasping becoming is of the first and second truths due to the second. Through becoming birth is of the first truth due to the second; through birth old-age-and-death is of the first truth due to the first. This should then be known fittingly by way of origin in the truths. #89982 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:23 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities nidive Hi Howard, > And that is a continuous ceasing just as much as it is a > continuous arising. If ever the ceasing were to halt, that would > be ultimate death, which, of course, is some folks' idea of > nibbana. But how do you understand the phrase "neither passing away nor arising" in Ud 8.1? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.than.html Swee Boon #89983 From: "Tep" Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:36 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities dhammanusarin Hi Swee, - It is itching "here and now", so I have to jump in and get a scratch. > Swee: > But how do you understand the phrase "neither passing away nor > arising" in Ud 8.1? > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.than.html > Simple answer: it is found in the sutta (Ud 8.01) next to 'neither passing away nor arising'. It means Nibbana is "unestablished, unevolving, without support". Tep === #89984 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:49 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 9/10/2008 5:05:24 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: I think that the point is that for two things that cannot coexist, when one is present, a necessary condition for the other to occur is that the present one should cease. Trivial conventional example: For a car to move into my lane, it is necessary that I move ahead or drop back to provide the opening (though often I've seen lane-changing drivers be unaware of that fact! LOL!) ---------------------------------------------- ..................................................... TG: I don't believe you have to be out of the lane in order for the other guy to change lanes. You just have to be out of the lane in order not to be hit by him. LOL The conditions that cause the other car to change lanes are "positive/active" factors, not negative/missing ones. That's my outlook. ...................................................... It isn't the end of one conscious moment that allows for the next to arise. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: For me, that *is* part of the facts, although I don't accept the "next" aspect. I would sooner say that for subsequent states to occur, the present state must cease. ---------------------------------------------- ................................................... TG: Its just a process of continual change. Phenomena are being forged along by the dynamics of conditionality. I look at it as a flow of change. Its mutual alteration that occurs. To say something must cease for the next to arise is back to the digital mode IMO. There is just changing phenomena, altering in accordance with conditions. The idea of something ceasing or arising is just our perspective of it, our way of conceiving it. TG OUT ..................................................... #89985 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:01 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities truth_aerator Hello Swee, Howard, and all, >--- "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > > And that is a continuous ceasing just as much as it is a > > continuous arising. If ever the ceasing were to halt, that would > > be ultimate death, which, of course, is some folks' idea of > > nibbana. > > But how do you understand the phrase "neither passing away nor > arising" in Ud 8.1? > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.than.html > > Swee Boon First of all the question is: Are those descriptions of Nibbana while an Arahant is alive or not? 2nd) As I understand it (and some Ven's teach) is that there isn't any aggregate in PariNibbana. Thus there isn't any sort of arising, ceasing or "not-moving". Of course Nibbana isn't a blank nothingness either as that is one of the high Aruppa levels, nor is Nibbana "some thing". Best wishes, Alex #89986 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:10 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/10/2008 11:23:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: Hi Howard, > And that is a continuous ceasing just as much as it is a > continuous arising. If ever the ceasing were to halt, that would > be ultimate death, which, of course, is some folks' idea of > nibbana. But how do you understand the phrase "neither passing away nor arising" in Ud 8.1? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.than.html Swee Boon ============================== I view it as pointing to a reality lying beyond appearance, time, separate conditions, change and also remaining unchanged - beyond all positive characterization. (The "ceasing" that I was imagining coming to an end was within time and within this world, not the realization of nibbana, which is a cessation that "goes beyond" and is, I believe, unimaginable for us.) With metta, Howard #89987 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:12 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities TGrand458@... Hi Howard I was thinking of this example... In order for the suffering of Samsara to cease, insight needs to be developed. Insight, rectitude, and concentration development simultaneously displace and alter the suffering. Suffering does not first cease, to get out of the way for Nibbana to arise. Suffering is displaced, mutated, altered, and extinguished by the "positive/active" development of the conditions necessary in order to extinguish suffering. IMO, the things that cease are "knocked out of the way" by "other" conditions. TG #89988 From: "Tep" Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:12 am Subject: Re: Old kamma & present behavior ... Attaa .. dhammanusarin Dear Sarah and Herman, - Given that one has no clinging to the aggregates (the "burden"), then there is neither aggregates of clinging (upadanakkhandhas) nor "embodiment view" (sakkaya-di.tthi or attavadupadana). According to Ven. Nanamoli: "Many suttas classify the conflicting notions of the nature of self held by opponents of the Buddha. It could be, and apparently was, for instance, claimed that it had materiality, or was immaterial; or both, or neither; was percipient of oneness, or of plurality, or of the limited or of the measureless; was eternal, or uneternal, or both, or neither; had only pleasure, or only pain, or both or neither; each of these theories being maintained by its propounder as "the only truth and all else wrong" (M. 102, etc.). Or else it could be described as having materiality either limited or infinite, or as immaterial and either limited or infinite. And then whichever of these four is adopted, it may be seen as such now, or due to be such (upon rebirth), or in this way "Though it is not yet real, still I shall contrive for its reality" (D. 15/vol. ii. 64). "All these rationalized views (di.t.thi) stem from uncritical acceptance or overlooking of an underlying tendency (anusaya), or fetter (sa"myo jana) â€" a natural predisposition â€" to regard, to identify, some aspect or other, in the situation of perceiving a percept, as "this is mine" or "this is what I am" or "this is my self" (e.g. M. 22). ** These two levels â€" the self-view and the I-sense â€" are respectively what are called the "(lower or immediate) fetter of views" (di.t.thi-sa"myo jana) and the "(higher or remoter) fetter of conceit" (maana-sa"myo jana).** "The first is abandoned with the attainment of the first stage of realization (the path of stream-entry) while the second is abandoned only with the fourth and final stage (the path of arahantship: see D. 33). It may be noted here in parenthesis that the rendering of maana by "pride," though not wrong, severs the semantic relationship with ma~n~nati and ma~n~nanaa, which it is most important to preserve intact for the understanding of this situation. "The overlooked fundamental conceit "I am" (asmi-maana) â€" a mirage that, in the act of perceiving, is conceived will fulfil its counterpart, the intuitive sense of lack, which is craving â€" in the basic ontological structure of ordinary perception provokes the ordinary man with no knowledge of the Buddha's teaching to indulge in uncritical speculation about what this may be that "I am," and consequently to build up self-theories. "He perceives (sa~njaanaati): but the very act of his perceiving is tendentious so that he simultaneously conceives (ma~n~nati) his percepts with an I-tendency. But a stream-enterer, who has attained the first stage of realization, has direct acquaintance (abhijanaati) where the ordinary man has perception, owing to which fact the former has the possibility of hastening his attainment of arahatship; and an arahant has no more conceivings (ma~n~nanaa) at all. "So long as a man leaves intact this fundamental tendency to conceive in the very act of perceiving, accompanied by the tendency to formulate views, he will look for answers to the questions that these two tendencies together prompt him to ask, and he will invent them and try to prove them: "This is how he gives unreasoned attention (ayoniso- manasikaara): 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is doubtful in himself about the presently arisen extent thus: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Whence will this creature have come? Whither will it be bound?' "When he gives unreasoned attention in this way one of the six kinds of view arises in him: the view 'A self exists for me' arises as true and established, or the view 'No self exists for me'... or the view 'I perceive self with self'... or the view 'I perceive not-self with self'... or the view 'I perceive self with not-self" arises in him as true and established; or else he has some such view as 'It is this my self that speaks and feels and that experiences here and there the ripening of good and bad actions; but this my self is permanent, ever lasting, eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity.' This field of views is called the thicket of views, the wilderness of views, the vacillation of views, the fetter of views. No untaught ordinary man bound by the fetter of views is freed from birth, aging and death, from sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief, and despair: he is not freed from suffering, I say." â€" M. 2/vol. i, 8 "In assuming that "I was" etc. cannot be analyzed, all these philosophical systems attempt to settle with unilateral certainty the dialectic questions "what was I?" and the rest and to dispose of them on an inadequate ontological basis of self-identity without querying how the questions come to be put in the first place or what is the structural nature of being. But any one answer, "I am this" cannot as it happens be decisively established over its contrary opposite, though it can be fortified by arguments, more or less logical or emotional, introducing "my self" and defining relations between it and what it is considered not to be, endowing it then with certain qualities and values and with either eternal or temporary permanence according to bent. The impossibility of establishing absolutely any one of these views as the only truth may lead to abuse and even to violence in the end, since it is often thought important to be right. "The pre-rational conceit "I am" (asmi-maana) is a "fetter but not a view" (Ps. Di.t.thikathaa/vol. i, 143). To perceive is to recognize and identify (see Vis. Ch. XIV/p. 462). In perceiving a percept the "untaught ordinary man" automatically conceives in the positional terms of "I," which then must seem involved in an I-relationship to the percept: either as identical with it, or as contained in it or as separate from it, or owning it as "mine." That relationship so conceived is relished (favored and approved) through want of full knowledge of the situation (M. 1; cf. M. 49). "The rational self-view (attaanudi.t.thi) is both a "fetter and a view." Though the conceit "I am" is normally associated with the tendency to formulate views, these views need not by any means be definitely formulated; but whenever they are, none can be specifically described without reference to the five categories affected by clinging (upaadanakkhandha: see S. XXII, 47 cited below). For that reason they can all be reduced to one of the types of what is called the "embodiment view" (sakkaya-di.tthi, from sat (or sa"m) plus kaaya = "true (or existent) body") which is set up schematically as follows: "The untaught ordinary man who disregards the ariyas... sees materiality (ruupa) as self, or self as possessed of materiality, or materiality in self, or self in materiality. [And likewise with feeling (vedanaa), perception (sa~n~naa), formations (sankhaaraa), and consciousness (vi~n~naana]" (M. 44/vol. i, 300). These four self-identifications embracing the five categories make twenty types. For each of the four basic modes of identifying, the Pa.tisambhidaamagga gives a simile as follows: "How does he see (say, materiality) as self?... Just as if a man saw a lighted lamp's flame and color as identical thus 'What the flame is, that the color is; what the color is that the flame is'... How does he see self as possessed of (say, materiality)?... Just as if there were a tree possessed of shade such that a man might say 'This is the tree, this is the shade; the tree is one, the shade another; but this tree is possessed of this shade in virtue of this shade'... How does he see (say, materiality) in self?... Just as if there were a scented flower such that a man might say 'This is the flower, this is the scent; the flower is one, the scent another; but the scent is in this flower'... How does he see self in (say, materiality)?... Just as if a gem were placed in a casket such that a man might say 'This is the gem, this is the casket; the gem is one, the casket another; but this gem is in this casket.'" â€" Ps. Di.t.thikathaa/vol. i, 144-5 "Self so viewed is then taken either as eternal thus "This is self, this the world; after death I shall be permanent, ever-lasting..." (M. 22 cited below) or as temporarily permanent but eventually annihilated, for instance; thus "As soon as this self is annihilated... that is peace..." (Iti, II. ii, 12). All possible views of whatever shade are again classified under sixty-two types in the first Sutta of the Diigha-Nikaaya called Brahmajaala Sutta or the "Divine Net." In this "net" all possible views are "caught" and so it can be seen how they come to be. "Now all these views â€" and all these standpoints for views (di.t.thi.t.thana) â€" are formed (or conditioned; sankhata) because "it is impossible that anyone shall experience (them) apart from contact (phassa)... and with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving (ta.nhaa); with craving as condition, clinging (upaadaana); with clinging as condition, being (bhava); with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition aging and death come to be, and also sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair; that is how there is an origin to this whole aggregate-mass of suffering" (D. 1/vol. i, 43-5). The structure of the conceit "I am" and the views to which it gives rise, is, in fact nothing else than the structure of being, the structure of what is "impermanent, formed, and dependently originated." "A Tathaagata understands that thus '(These views) are formed and (consequently) gross; but there is cessation of formations: there is that.' By knowing and seeing the escape from them a Tathaagata transcends them (tad upaativatto)" (M. 102/vol. ii, 229-30). "The Buddha explains how he uses the word attaa (self) in the second sense, namely, the "person" or "individual" noted above: "There are these three kinds of acquisition of self (atta- patilaabha): gross, constituted of mind, and immaterial... The first has materiality and consists of the four great entities (elements of earth, water, fire, and air), and consumes physical food; the second is constituted by mind with all the limbs and lacking no faculty; the third consists of perception... I teach the Doctrine (dhamma) for the abandoning of acquisitions of self in order that in you, who put the teaching into practice, defiling ideas may be abandoned and cleansing ideas increase, and that you, by realization yourselves here and now with direct knowledge, enter upon and abide in the fullness of understanding's perfection... If it is thought that to do that is an unpleasant abiding, that is not so: on the contrary, by doing that there is gladness, happiness, tranquillity, mindfulness, full awareness and a pleasant (blissful) abiding... These are worldly usages, worldly language, worldly terms of communication, worldly descriptions by which a Tathaagata communicates without misapprehending them." â€" D. 9/vol. i, 195-202 abbr. "It is only after this sketch of views that we can treat of the doctrine of not-self (for views in general see especially D. 1 and 2; M. 102; Di.t.thi-Sa"myutta; Ps. Di.t.thikathaa; and Vbh.) [From "Anattaa According to the Theravaada" by Ã`anamoli Thera] ..................................... Sarah, I sincerely hope that you have carefully studied the above precious explanation about self, self views, and how a person can drop sakkayaditthi along with either one of the extreme views : 'There is a self.' and 'There is no self.'. Tep === #89989 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:22 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 9/10/2008 11:50:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard In a message dated 9/10/2008 5:05:24 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: I think that the point is that for two things that cannot coexist, when one is present, a necessary condition for the other to occur is that the present one should cease. Trivial conventional example: For a car to move into my lane, it is necessary that I move ahead or drop back to provide the opening (though often I've seen lane-changing drivers be unaware of that fact! LOL!) ---------------------------------------------- ..................................................... TG: I don't believe you have to be out of the lane in order for the other guy to change lanes. You just have to be out of the lane in order not to be hit by him. LOL The conditions that cause the other car to change lanes are "positive/active" factors, not negative/missing ones. That's my outlook. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know. but don't feel bad - we all make mistakes! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- ...................................................... It isn't the end of one conscious moment that allows for the next to arise. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: For me, that *is* part of the facts, although I don't accept the "next" aspect. I would sooner say that for subsequent states to occur, the present state must cease. ---------------------------------------------- ................................................... TG: Its just a process of continual change. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I agree. I simple see that as subsuming constant cessation of things as-is. -------------------------------------------------- Phenomena are being forged along by the dynamics of conditionality. I look at it as a flow of change. Its mutual alteration that occurs. To say something must cease for the next to arise is back to the digital mode IMO. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Not if, as I do, one rejects that "next" notion. --------------------------------------------- There is just changing phenomena, altering in accordance with conditions. The idea of something ceasing or arising is just our perspective of it, our way of conceiving it. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. All our talk is just conceiving. ---------------------------------------------- TG OUT ============================ With metta, Howard #89990 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:26 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 9/10/2008 12:12:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard I was thinking of this example... In order for the suffering of Samsara to cease, insight needs to be developed. Insight, rectitude, and concentration development simultaneously displace and alter the suffering. Suffering does not first cease, to get out of the way for Nibbana to arise. Suffering is displaced, mutated, altered, and extinguished by the "positive/active" development of the conditions necessary in order to extinguish suffering. IMO, the things that cease are "knocked out of the way" by "other" conditions. TG ============================= As I see it, there are many conditions leading to bodhi, some positive and some negative. As for the event of awakening, it is both a cessation and an attainment as I see it. With metta, Howard #89991 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:28 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities nidive Hi Howard, > I view it as pointing to a reality lying beyond appearance, time, > separate conditions, change and also remaining unchanged - beyond > all positive characterization. (The "ceasing" that I was imagining > coming to an end was within time and within this world, not the > realization of nibbana, which is a cessation that "goes beyond" > and is, I believe, unimaginable for us.) Do I take it that you are saying the "passing away" in Ud 8.1 does not refer to the ceasing of conditioned phenomena? In my interpretation, "passing away" in Ud 8.1 refers to the ceasing of conditioned phenomena, since earth, water, fire, wind, the four arupa jhanas, this world, next world, the sun and the moon are all conditioned phenomena subject to passing away. In nibbana, these conditioned phenomena neither arises nor passes away. Swee Boon #89992 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:32 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities TGrand458@... In a message dated 9/10/2008 10:27:41 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: As I see it, there are many conditions leading to bodhi, some positive and some negative. As for the event of awakening, it is both a cessation and an attainment as I see it. With metta, Howard Hi Howard We'll just have to see it differently. I don't see that a negative, an absence, can be a condition for something. -- "This not being, that is not. With the ceasing of this, that ceases." So the idea that the ceasing of something causes the arising of something...not supported by Buddha's DO formula. TG #89993 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:37 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities nidive Hi Tep, > It is itching "here and now", so I have to jump in and get a > scratch. It's OK. I know you are lonely, so join in the fun. Happy scratching! > Simple answer: it is found in the sutta (Ud 8.01) next to 'neither > passing away nor arising'. > It means Nibbana is "unestablished, unevolving, without support". May you have a glimpse of that which is unestablished, unevolving and without support - the cessation of stress. Swee Boon #89994 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:04 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/10/2008 12:29:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: Hi Howard, > I view it as pointing to a reality lying beyond appearance, time, > separate conditions, change and also remaining unchanged - beyond > all positive characterization. (The "ceasing" that I was imagining > coming to an end was within time and within this world, not the > realization of nibbana, which is a cessation that "goes beyond" > and is, I believe, unimaginable for us.) Do I take it that you are saying the "passing away" in Ud 8.1 does not refer to the ceasing of conditioned phenomena? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't know - *do* you? ;-) I stand on what I said. That's how I think about it, and it's the best I can do at the moment. (Of course, how I think I about it and how you think about it don't matter much. It is as it is.) ------------------------------------------ In my interpretation, "passing away" in Ud 8.1 refers to the ceasing of conditioned phenomena, since earth, water, fire, wind, the four arupa jhanas, this world, next world, the sun and the moon are all conditioned phenomena subject to passing away. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I'm aware of your interpretation. I think of your view as a simple annihilationism. So, I guess we just disagree on this. :-) -------------------------------------------- In nibbana, these conditioned phenomena neither arises nor passes away. Swee Boon =========================== With metta, Howard #89995 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:13 am Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 9/10/2008 12:33:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard We'll just have to see it differently. I don't see that a negative, an absence, can be a condition for something. -- "This not being, that is not. With the ceasing of this, that ceases." So the idea that the ceasing of something causes the arising of something...not supported by Buddha's DO formula. TG ============================ Does a vacuum not have consequences? Does loss of income not have consequences? And is realization of nibbana ONLY a cessation, or is a positive event as well? I believe it is positive as well as negative, and it arises from a series of cessations. The absence of avijja enables liberation. Please note the signature quote at the end of this post. The absence of the hindrances is requisite for one to realize "a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision." With metta, Howard #89996 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:42 am Subject: Persons are Not Persons (Re: [dsg] Re: Getting comfort from deep teachings ...) upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Ken) - In a message dated 9/10/2008 2:02:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi again > I mean, if you *really* knew "there is no Ken" it would not have > you blithe-ing away about it on the internet, that's for sure! BTW, the "blithe-ing" above is an invented word, it's not a typo for blithering. :) Metta, Phil =============================== I shall blithely (;-) ignore the lexicon point of your post and instead remark on the related Dhamma matter of "persons". What I would like to point out is that while it is not incorrect to countenance the integrated, ever-changing and circulating vortex of mental and physical conditions we know and love as "Ken," there IS a legitimate sense in which it is correct to say "There is no Ken". That is when Ken is conceived of as an entity - an existent, individual thing with identity and own-being; i.e., as having "self". And as much as we are inclined to deny it, that is usually the way we think about persons. Instead of viewing persons as ever-changing eddies or vortices within, borrowing from, affecting and being affected by a larger stream of phenomena, we think of them as things of their own. And these dreamed of things-of-their-own do not exist. With metta, Howard #89997 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:59 pm Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities egberdina Hi Howard and all, 2008/9/10 : > Hi, TG - > > > Obviously I don't wish to deal with the term "cittas." But can two or more > states of consciousness exist at the same time in one person? Beats the > hell > out of me. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't believe so. > --------------------------------------------------- > I think it is a fundamental mistake to ascribe unity or wholeness to consciousness. Consciousness is not reducible to a single state. We could draw a comparison between consciousness and the sky. They are both complex phenomena. There are not two skies. But neither is there one whole sky. We would not say that one sky has to fall away for the next sky to arise. The model of consciousness which is promulgated at dsg, of a rupa impinging on a sense base with a nama as a consequence, in a serial fashion, models nothing found in the world. The human brain is not a digital apparatus, and is not in a single state at any time. The human brain is the most complex organ to be found in the known universe, and questions like "is there seeing now?" as though such a unitary phenomenon is detectable or even possible to isolate meaningfully from the field of consciousness fails to acknowledge what is well known and well accepted, namely that there are multiple interrelated visual areas in the brain, consisting of billions of synaptic connections, that all co-ordinate to create the visual field. Not to mention the eyes with their millions of rods and cones. The point is that if one starts with a simple model of a most complex phenomenon, then all conclusions drawn from that model are going to be useless :-) Cheers Herman #89998 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: no e-card from no where! egberdina Hi KenH, 2008/9/10 kenhowardau : > Hi Herman, > > > Yes, to your mind, I seem like someone who regards ultimate reality > as a personal preference. Yes, I do. Because you maintain that ultimate reality is something that can be, and is to be KNOWN. But I say that ultimate reality is something that IS, and that knowing anything at all IS ANICCA, The point is that being and knowing are not the same, they never co-incide, ever. Actually, I don't regard it that way at > all. I believe your confusion arises because you can't see how > ultimate reality could be *anything but* a personal preference. Anything known is a matter of personal preference, because all knowing is selective. > > You come from a religious, Christian, background. One thing I have > noticed about Christians is their notion of a personally-selected > God. One Christian will say his God is (for example) a God of Love, > while another will say his is a God of Justice - and so on. There are > as many Gods as there are Christians - gentle, stern, forgiving, > vengeful, close, distant, simple, complicated . . you name it, the > One True God fits that description. I accept that this is so in Christianity. (I also think it is the case in Buddhism). > > The same attitude carries over when Christians convert to Buddhism. > They select their preferred Buddhism. They pick through the texts of > the various conflicting schools and garner-together a unique creation > that suits their requirements. Then they blithely compare their > chosen Buddhisms with their friends' chosen Buddhisms - as if it > wasn't the most ridiculous state of affairs imaginable! > > Not only former Christians but modern-day Buddhists in general tend > to be that way. Look at the meditators at DSG, for example. The only > argument they uniformly maintain ("the good work") is that Buddhism > is a religion that can be practised at will. (Just like Christianity > and Islamism (etc) can be practised at will.) > > I think the only teaching they can't abide is the one found solely in > the ancient Theravadin texts - as pointed to by K Sujin and friends. K Sujin and friends preach determinism (except when one of their number is encountering difficult times). The Buddha did not preach determinism. The Buddha preached the reality of Nibbana, and the cessation of knowing as the way to it. So, as long as there is knowing going on, KenH, even knowing ultimate reality (LOL), you know you've got a way to go :-) Cheers Herman #89999 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:15 pm Subject: Re: to Howard: [dsg] Question regarding "Conceptual" realities upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 9/10/2008 5:59:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Howard and all, 2008/9/10 : > Hi, TG - > > > Obviously I don't wish to deal with the term "cittas." But can two or more > states of consciousness exist at the same time in one person? Beats the > hell > out of me. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't believe so. > --------------------------------------------------- > I think it is a fundamental mistake to ascribe unity or wholeness to consciousness. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: No need to ascribe unity/wholeness. A state of consciousness consists of all the then-present mental phenomena. When any aspect changes, it is no longer the same state. ------------------------------------------------ Consciousness is not reducible to a single state. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand what you mean by that. ----------------------------------------------- We could draw a comparison between consciousness and the sky. They are both complex phenomena. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I certainly agree. (I assume, BTW, that by 'consciousness' you mean not only the operation of knowing, but the entire mental complex.) ----------------------------------------------------- There are not two skies. But neither is there one whole sky. We would not say that one sky has to fall away for the next sky to arise. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm really not following you. The sky changes, period. Change requires that what was before no longer is. -------------------------------------------------- The model of consciousness which is promulgated at dsg, of a rupa impinging on a sense base with a nama as a consequence, in a serial fashion, models nothing found in the world. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: The sequence-of-discrete-states model is not one that I accept. --------------------------------------------------- The human brain is not a digital apparatus, and is not in a single state at any time. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: At any moment, the current state is simply what is currently the case. That doesn't in any way presuppose a sequence of discrete states. Reality rolls on continuously, like the real number line and not like the sequence of integers. ---------------------------------------------------- The human brain is the most complex organ to be found in the known universe, and questions like "is there seeing now?" as though such a unitary phenomenon is detectable or even possible to isolate meaningfully from the field of consciousness fails to acknowledge what is well known and well accepted, namely that there are multiple interrelated visual areas in the brain, consisting of billions of synaptic connections, that all co-ordinate to create the visual field. Not to mention the eyes with their millions of rods and cones. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: As a Buddhist I'm not especially interested in the brain. -------------------------------------------------- The point is that if one starts with a simple model of a most complex phenomenon, then all conclusions drawn from that model are going to be useless :-) ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree, or, if not utterly useless, then certainly of only limited use. (Newtonian mechanics is relatively simpIe and fundamentally flawed yet useful in limited but significant contexts.) I think that all models are inadequate, and only "the thing itself" is good enough. ---------------------------------------------- Cheers Herman ========================== With metta, Howard