#91600 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:17 pm Subject: Re: Cha.t.tha Sa"ngaayana Pali version thomaslaw03 Suan Lu Zaw, Thank you very much for your email and your findings. 'veyyaakara.nassa hetu' from the Myanmar version is the same reading as the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). Do you think the variant reading from the PTS version published in 1960 possibly followed the Myanmar version (which is different reading from the Cha.t.tha Sangaayanaa Edition edited before 1960)? Regards, Thomas Law <...> > Suan answered: > > Today (Friday, 17 Oct. 08), I visited the ANU Menzies library to > consult the Print Edition of Majjhimanikaaya. There is only one > version of Pali Tipi.taka with a variant reading `veyyaakara.nassa > hetu', which is from Myanmar. This means that the Cha.t.tha > Sangaayanaa Print Edition did not see a variant reading for that > Pali line in the Pali Tipi.taka versions from other nations while it > was being edited before 1960. > > I did look at the PTS version of Majjhimanikaaya edited by Robert > Chalmers with that variant reading published in 1960. > > As I was in the library, I also checked the version from India > edited by Rahul(aa) Sankrityayana and printed in Naagari script. It > also has the same reading as the Cha.t.tha Sangaayanaa Edition. <...> #91601 From: "Atula Siriwardane" Date: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:54 pm Subject: The way to establish awareness.. asiri57 The way to establish awareness.. The only solution is to live according to Maha Satipatthana Sutta. That is the path.. the one and only path.. as Buddha describes in the begining. Every other way is leading the same direction... Direction of accumulation... Accumulation of Karma and Klesha... Erradicating suffering is eradicating defilements. If you know the value of the help of some one who had followed the path before you www.dhamma.org May Dhamma with you Atula #91603 From: "www.atulasiriwardane.com" Date: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:25 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue (siila) .. The way to establish awareness.. asiri57 The way to establish awareness.. Sila is the kindergarten. Samadhi is Highschool... Panna is the masters degree... Intelectualizing is bunking the classes. The final solution is to live according to Maha Satipatthana Sutta. That is the path.. the one and only path.. as Buddha describes in the begining. Every other way is leading the same direction... Direction of accumulation... Accumulation of Karma and Klesha... Erradicating suffering is eradicating defilements. If you know the value of the help of some one who had followed the path before you www.dhamma.org May Dhamma with you Atula #91604 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" nilovg Dear Tep and Howard, Op 18-okt-2008, om 4:07 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > T: Forever doomed, my friend, we are forever doomed. ------ N: We are born human and still have the opportunity to hear the Dhamma. Listening, understanding, developing. Nina. #91605 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:41 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. philofillet Hi Nina, Tep and all > -------- > T: Can zeal(chanda) for sensual desire be restrained through > renunciation > ------ > N: It can be temporarily suppressed by the development of jhaana, but > as soon as one emerges from jhaana, it arises again. But surely its power has been challenged, its dominance has been challenged and there has been momentary victory over the defilement. These victories accumulate in a way that weakens the power of the defilement, probably through natural decisive support condition, though I'm not sure. The defilements are challenged, momentarily defeated, and that changes their power. I'm pretty sure of that! More optimism is in order for us, we have achieved rare human birth and we are responsive to the Buddha's teaching. More optimism is in order! :) metta, phil p.s I am not talking about jhanas, here. Samattha short of jhanas helps, even if there is clinging to self involved, even if it is just some "calm" that one clings to. And through elementary levels of discretionary wisdom that say "this is bad for me and others, it is harmful." That goes on all the time when we are open to the Dhamma. But then again, that could be because my defilments are so gross that it is easy to see progress, the steep learner's curve I often refer to. #91606 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:23 pm Subject: Fearless Safety! bhikkhu0 Friends: Safe Release from all Anxiety: The young deity Subrahma once asked the Buddha: Always frightened is this Mind! Always agitated is this Mind! About present problems. About future problems. If there is a release from this Anxiety, please then explain it to me... Whereupon the Blessed Buddha declared: I see no other real safety for any living being, except from control of the senses, except from the relinquishment of all, except from awakening into Enlightenment! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 54 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) http://What-Buddha-Said.net Fearless Safety! #91607 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: DSG's method for Attaining Ariyanhood ... No Practice, No Ariy... jonoabb Hi Howard > Yes, but an appreciation of the gradual nature of the develoment of > kusala, valuable though that may be, does not mean the absence of an > idea of "self". > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Really! No kidding! Jon, what is your point? Of course, we are immersed > in "self". Yes, agreed there is a lot of wrong view of self; and of course also conceit and plain old attachment (without either wrong view or conceit). My point was simply that the development of kusala of the kind of dana, sila and bhavana (that is to say, other than kusala that is insight) does nothing to eradicate the wrong view of self. In fact, it may be expected that the wrong view of self would continue to develop regardless of any kusala also being developed (although of course not at precisely the same moment). > So it's not a case of > intention being the "cycle buster" ;-)) > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Of course it is! Otherwise, it is a matter of random good luck. That is > not Dhamma, Jon. > -------------------------------------------- I don't follow your reasoning here. You say that intention must be the key factor, otherwise any progress along the path would be a matter of random good luck. Would you mind spelling out the reasons for that assertion? Thanks. Intention is undeniably an indispensible factor. But it is present regardless of whether the consciousness is kusala or akusala. So I don't see how it can be the "key factor". To my understanding, an intention to lead a life of more kusala (as you have proposed) is only as good as the understanding of how kusala is to be developed. Otherwise the intention is really nothing more than wishful thinking. > IMVA > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > IDKTA (I don't know the acronym. ;-) > ------------------------------------------ ;-)) "In my view anyway." (I suppose I could equally have used IMO, which is readily understood.) Jon #91608 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:50 am Subject: Re: DSG's method for Attaining Ariyanhood ... No Practice, No Ariyans ... jonoabb Hi Tep > T:. The > action is NOT spontaneous, period. Did the Buddha ever mention > anything relating to "mind-moments" in MN 141? It is all your > interpretation, Jon. I was just using the term "mind-moments" to represent your mention of "thought (a recollection of the trained skill)". You had said: > The trained perception of kusala will accordingly > condition a thought (a recollection of the trained skill) to guide > their future action to be kind and obedient. No spontaneity. If you have problem with the use of "mind-moments" instead of "thought" I'll have to try and do better next time ;-)) > Jon: According to my usage of the term, such a kusala act could still > be spontaneous, as long as any thoughts preceding the act were so > brief or subtle as to not to amount to deliberate thinking > (conventionally so called). > > T: The Buddha's usage of the > terms 'desire', 'endeavor', 'persistence', 'upholding' and 'exerting > intent' are what we should pay attention to in this discussion. Your > theory or my theory are beside the point. Yes, but this discussion came about because you questioned a statement I made about kusala arising spontaneously. I was just explaining my use of "spontaneously". Again, it seems I need to be more careful ;-)) Jon #91609 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:53 am Subject: Re: Looping & repeating things in DO jonoabb Hi Rinze > Rinze: > Thankyou for your kind words, Jon. I was only trying to present the > Dhamma as I see it. And where ever is relevant, I have presented > quotations from the Tripitaka to support my view. Your contributions are welcome. I especially appreciate the fact that you give quotations from the Tipitaka. > If you are now considering which option to take then that is "acting > with yoniso manisakara". Well to my understanding yoniso manasikara is a sobhana mental factor and so arises only with kusala citta. So I would not expect it to be present just because I was thinking about how to cross the road safely ;-)) > Jon: > …..I wonder how you see this notion in the context of the Buddha's > explanation of the reverse order of DO, where it is explained that > it is the ceasing of ignorance that leads in due course to the > ceasing of becoming (i.e., to enlightenment). > > Rinze: > Eventually that is how it should happen, with the ceasing of > ignorance (or some part thereof), there is is the ceasing of > becoming, relevant to the ignorance that has ceased. I'm glad we agree on this point, and also that the notion of interposing yoniso manasikara is not specifically taught by the Buddha. To my understanding, the reference in PS to the cessation of ignorance is a reference to the development of insight. There is therefore no need to look among the links for some "opportunity" to interpose awareness/insight. I think that if there was some meaning to PS it would have been spelt out by the Buddha himself or in the commentaries. To me it's neither necessary nor safe to follow such modern-day "interpretations"? Jon #91610 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:20 am Subject: Is there a "ground of being?" wsa [dsg] Re: the five khandhas, was Quote Survey. philofillet Hi Colette > The type of concepts you are relating are like a "common > denominator", a foundation upon which thought can continue. A basis > for speaking. > > THE GROUND OF BEING is a good meditational thought. I don't know about that Colette. Personally, I can't find any grounds for this "ground of being" in the Pali canon, and I haven't study the Mahayanan canon so I don't know if it's really taught in there. On the other hand, we have so many people reporting after near death experiencese that there is this "light" or whatever. Light is always at the forefront of my meditation because I used to visualize using it, so now it's conditioned to be there. To be honest, in the back of my mind there is still this fascination and maybe longing for "the light" although it is not in the Buddha's teaching in a clear way I've found yet. (Yes, the mind is "luminous", but...) You had a near death experience, didn't you? If you don't mind my asking, what was it like? (If it's painful to talk about, please feel free to refrain.) Can you see any relevance to the Dhamma in what you experienced? metta, phil #91611 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:31 am Subject: Re: Pali version of Saddhamma Patirupaka Sutta philofillet Hi Alex > > Hi Sarah and all (p.s to Scott) > >predicatbly, comfort with the idea of the observer. > > Isn't that applicable to DSG'ers who stress observation and > understanding of realities happening now? Well, they deny being comfortable with this idea, they claim it's all about dhammas, don't they? I haven't heard anyone admitting that there is an observing hungering for wisdom, but yes, I think that is what must surely be going on a lot of the time... > > > > But I have heard it in other > > traditions, such as some Mahasi Sayadaw tradition teachers. I think > > it is inevitable that there is an observer at first, and yes, I'd > > agree that there is more "self?h involved in formal meditation than > > in discussion. > > > I disagree 100%. The more self involvement is in meditation, the > harder it is to meditate but is much and much easier to argue. Ph: Hmmm. I think for beginners like myself who's habitual mental patterns are so heavily directed towards hindrance related objects, there is no choice but to establish a kind of stronghold, as one Thai Ajahn put it. Otherwise there will just be getting washed away constantly. There will still be getting washed away, but we have to set up a kind of island in the storm (mixed metaphor, but you know what I mean.) That's the way I see it. But the regularity with which this island is flooded and the observer is washed away is a quick and constant reminder that beneath the illusion of control it is all anatta. So this observer needn't be a permanent obstacle to deeper understanding the way people say. > The less "self view" there is, the less desire there is to argue, > talk and so on. Yes, definitely true. I don't know about you, but I find my meditations are "better" (you know what I mean, I think) when I have been away from DSG for a few days. Otherwise there is too much discoursive thinking about what is going on. Honestly, with all the long and intense and passionate posting you do, I don't know how you can meditate! But I think your indriyas are probably more developed than mine. > > > I suggest you read an online book "Simply this moment" where world > famous heavy samatha teacher Ajahn Brahm puts to rest speculations > about "observer", "doing" and so on. Except for meditation emphasis, > he seems to have graduated strait from DSG with a PhD. > > I've uploaded the file zSimply_This_Moment.pdf on this site. Please > see it. > > "It can be very scary to get into deep meditations. Do you know the > reason why? It's because `you' have to disappear before you get into > them. You're letting go of you, or what you take to be you. That's > why it's wonderful to be able to completely get rid of the person in > here who is always calling the shots, always talking, always making > the decisions. " pg 144 Ph: I like Ajahn B, but this "letting go of you" is not going to happen for beginners, is it? Of course there is progress in that direction, often enough. But I think wanting to have that at the beginning must be counter-productive! metta, phil p.s pls note that I said in that post to Sarah was applicable to beginners like myself and shouldn't be taken to refer to people who have developped well-established meditation practices. #91612 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:29 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries philofillet Hi Scott > P: "At some point I'll put up the SN sutta on the acrobats that we > discussed for more detailed analysis re the commentaries..." > > Scott: I'll get it in below, since I enjoy the study: Ph: Thanks. Last evening in the bath I was enjoying trying to match the Pali to the English. It would be very interesting to study Pali, but impossible with Japanese to keep developing... > SN 47:19(9) Sedakasutta.m > > "...'That's the method there,' the Blessed One said. 'It's just as > the apprentice Medakathaalikaa said to the teacher. 'I will protect > myself,' bhikkhus: thus should the establishment of mindfulness be > practised. 'I will protect others,' bhikkhus: thus should the > establishment of mindfulness be practised. Protecting oneself, > bhikkhus, one protects others; protecting others, one protects oneself." > > "'So tattha ~naayo''ti bhagavaa etadavoca, 'yathaa medakathaalikaa > antevaasii aacariya.m avoca. Attaana.m, bhikkhave, rakkhissaamiiti > satipa.t.thaana.m sevitabba.m; para.m rakkhissaamiiti > satipa.t.thaana.m sevitabba.m. Attaana.m, bhikkhave, rakkhanto para.m > rakkhati, para.m rakkhanto attaana.m rakkhati'." > > "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects > others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation [of the four > establishments of mindfulness]. It is in such a way that by > protecting oneself on protects others." > > "'Katha~nca , bhikkhave, attaana.m rakkhanto para.m rakkhati? > Aasevanaaya, bhaavanaaya, bahuliikammena â€" eva.m kho, bhikkhave, > attaana.m rakkhanto para.m rakkhati." > > Note 169. "Spk: The bhikkhu who gives up frivolous activity and > pursues, develops, and cultivates his basic meditation subject day and > night attains arahatship. Then, when others see him and gain > confidence in him, they become destined for heaven. This one protects > others by protecting himself." > > "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects > oneself? By patience, harmlessness, lovingkindness, and sympathy. It > is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself." > > Note 170. "...Spk: The bhikkhu develops the jhaanas based on the > brahmavihaara, then uses jhaana as a basis for insight and attains > arahatship. This one protects himself by protecting others." > > "Katha~nca, bhikkhave, para.m rakkhanto attaana.m rakkhati? Khantiyaa, > avihi.msaaya, mettacittataaya, anudayataaya â€" eva.m kho, bhikkhave, > para.m rakkhanto attaana.m rakkhati." > > "'I will protect myself,' bhikkhus: thus should the establishment of > mindfulness be practised. 'I will protect others,' bhikkhus: thus > should the establishment of mindfulness be practised. Protecting > oneself, bhikkhus, one protects others; protecting others, bhikkhus, > one protects oneself." > > "Attaana.m, bhikkhave, rakkhissaamiiti satipa.t.thaana.m sevitabba.m; > para.m rakkhissaamiiti satipa.t.thana.m sevitabba.m. Attaana.m, > bhikkhave, rakkhanto para.m rakkhati, para.m rakkhanto attaana.m > rakkhatii' ti." > > P: "...But you know, based on a commentary for the AN sutta > on the daily recollections on ageing, illness, death etc by which > those recollections are apparently reduced ridiculously to the > paramattha (i.e it is said that it is the citta that is 'ageing, > getting ill and dying') I suspect there are some commentaries that > will have to be given a back seat to more mundane readings. But the > neat thing is I don't feel any need to convince you of this..." > > Scott: No, I don't need any convincing. I appreciate the experience > of reading the commentarial take on things. I like how it is often so > jarring and how it is in stark contradistinction to the precious views > I wind up creating. To me it allows a beautiful contemplation of how > the conventional is not the way things are - even if I don't happen to > understand the commentarial position. Like you, I often skip it > because trying to force understanding doesn't work. Either I get it > or I don't. Not getting it doesn't mean I reject it, however. And, > to put it in again, I think that 'mundane' readings are a function of > lack of understanding, not that there are two ways of understanding > things. Ph: I encourage you to keep thinking on this point. (And I am sending citta waves at you to force your mind to do so - sorry.) For example, if you take a look at Vism VIII, 8-41, the Eight Ways of Recollecting Death. There is a very interesting progression from various conventional recollections ("so and so died, so who am I to think I won't?" for example, or a recollection on how many kinds of worms and diseases share the body with us. And by the end of these 8 recollections, we are to the very paramattha, the fleeting nama and rupa, the teaching of momentary death that is favoured by A.S and her students. I would say these points at two ways of understanding things, or more. This is just one example, I'm sure the examples of the Buddha teaching at different levels are countless. And while I don't know much about the commentaries, not yet, I can see there are interesting inconsistencies and even oddities pointed out by BB in his anthologies. You've seen them. Now, just because BB points them out doesn't mean they are true, but I must rely on him at this point. Here is an interesting example. In AN VI, 44, there is "There is one person, Ananda, who is gentle, a pleasant companion, with whom his fellow monks gladly live together. But he has not heard the teachings and acquired much learning, he has no keen understanding not he he attained even temporary liberation of mind. With the breakup of the body, after death, he will be set for decline, not for progress; he will deteriorate and not rise higher." And then a verse in which he who has heard the teachings etc is set for progress after death etc. Now, when you read "temporary liberation of mind" what do you think it is referring to? I know what I thought.. Thinking time. Ok, jhanas right? Surely jhanas. Here is BB's commentarial note: "Saamayikam pi vimuttim. This expression usually signifies the jhaanas, but here AA explains differently: 'He doesn not occasionally experience joy and enthusiasm when listening to the Dhamma from time to time." Now, are you sure you would take this meaning of the phrase over the one that it usually has and which is also the one that matched your prediction based on accumulated intellectual understanding of the canon? (I'm assuming your answer was jhaanas as well.) Now, ok, no conclusion is necessary, but I just thinking assuming the commentaries are inevitably more trustworthy than the understanding we have accumulated from our study (which includes, of course, studying other commentaries) could be dangerous. I mean, yes, AN III 65 To the Kalamas is probably overused by people to reject texts, but doesn't the "don't go by traditions etc...when you know for yourselves these things are wholesome, these things are blameless, these things are praised by the wise, these things when undertaken and practiced lead to welfare and happiness" place a certain responsibility on ourselves to test the teaching ourselves, to fend for ourselves, to begin to trust our own understanding. I'm sure you do, but what your wrote below: > Either I get it > or I don't. Not getting it doesn't mean I reject it, however. And, > to put it in again, I think that 'mundane' readings are a function of > lack of understanding, not that there are two ways of understanding > things. ...suggest to me a kind of...something... I don't know. I got lost. But I'll leave that with you. Let me ask you if there is a commentarial passage you're ready to consider rejecting on the basis of understanding gathered elsewhere? I know it sounds like a presumptious thing to do, but surely there could be times. For me, one that I reject is the one where it is said that the Buddha knew that all the bhikkhus were going to kill themselves as a result of doing foulness meditation without jhanas, but that they were going to do so to erase their kamma, so he didn't stop them. That much is perfectly feasible, but in the sutta he asked "where did all the Bhikkhus go?" This means the commentary is surely faulty, because that is double speech by the Buddha, pretending he didn't know where they were when he actually knew they had killed themselves. Duplicity, a word you used in the other post, surely not possible for a Buddha! He would have just breezed on in and explained right off what had happened... How about you? Any commentarial passages you would like to question?H If not, that's fine. No problemo. When we move beyond this, I will ask you to share some commentarial passages that have been particularly impressive for you. I think you have the Attasalini (sp?) don't you, in book form? And others. I can imagine how cool they are to read, and I can appreciate the respect you have for them! metta, phil ?@p.s I'm going to respond to the thread about couple living in tune on Tuesday, and will continue this thread (unless you'd like to drop it, always an option, don't hestitate) next Saturday. #91613 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:15 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue (siila) .. The way to establish awareness.. visitorfromt... Hi Atula, - Interesting! ---"www.atulasiriwardane.com" wrote: > > The way to establish awareness.. > � > Sila is the kindergarten. > Samadhi is Highschool... > Panna is the masters degree... > Intelectualizing is bunking the classes. > > The�final solution is to live according to > Maha Satipatthana Sutta. > That is the path.. the one and only path.. > as Buddha describes in the begining. > Every other way is leading the same direction... > Direction of accumulation... > Accumulation of Karma and Klesha... > Erradicating suffering is eradicating defilements. > If you know the value of the help of some one who had followed the path before you > www.dhamma.org > May Dhamma with you > Atula > T: The last sentence is most interesting : "If you know the value of the help of some one who had followed the path before you www.dhamma.org " Will you be kind enough to elaborate a little ? Thanks. Visitor from Texas #91615 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:42 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. visitorfromt... Hello Phil, (Nina, Atula, Sarah and others,) - The meaning of virtue as restraint(siila sam.vara) is summarized well in your message! >Ph. : The defilements are challenged, momentarily defeated, and that changes their power. > T: Restraint is necessary to momentarily stop the tide of kilesas so that sati has a chance to establish with awareness and vice versa. Avijja Sutta AN 10.61 explains : And what is the nutriment for the three forms of misconduct? Lack of restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment for lack of restraint of the senses? Lack of mindfulness & alertness... And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness & alertness? Inappropriate attention... ----- vft #91616 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:32 am Subject: Re: DSG's method for Attaining Ariyanhood ... No Practice, No Ariyans ... visitorfromt... Dear Jon (Howard), - I appreciate the patience that I often perceive in your reply. Admittedly, mine has been running low lately. > >Tep:. The action is NOT spontaneous, period. Did the Buddha ever mention anything relating to "mind-moments" in MN 141? It is all your interpretation, Jon. >Jon: If you have problem with the use of "mind-moments" instead of "thought" I'll have to try and do better next time ;-)) T: I am ashamed of myself for being mean to you, and yet you are so cool and collected. Please accept my apology! ............................. > >Tep: The Buddha's usage of the > >terms 'desire', 'endeavor', 'persistence', 'upholding' > > and 'exerting intent' are what we should pay attention to in > > this discussion. Your theory or my theory are beside the point. >Jon: Yes, but this discussion came about because you questioned a statement I made about kusala arising spontaneously. I was just explaining my use of "spontaneously". >Again, it seems I need to be more careful ;-)) T: ;-) I promise I will never "bite your head off" even if you are ten times more stubborn, Jon. .............................. T: I am interested in your other conversation today : >Jon to Howard (#91607): >My point was simply that the development of kusala of the kind of dana, sila and bhavana (that is to say, other than kusala that is insight) does nothing to eradicate the wrong view of self. In fact, it may be expected that the wrong view of self would continue to develop regardless of any kusala also being developed (although of course not at precisely the same moment). T: Yes, and it is true that the sense of self at this stage is also an important driver for development of higher kusalas and abandoning of tougher defilements. >Jon, continuing : Intention is undeniably an indispensible factor. But it is present regardless of whether the consciousness is kusala or akusala. So I don't see how it can be the "key factor". >To my understanding, an intention to lead a life of more kusala (as you have proposed) is only as good as the understanding of how kusala is to be developed. Otherwise the intention is really nothing more than wishful thinking. T: Because intention is "present regardless of whether the consciousness is kusala or akusala", that's why it is necessary that we fully understand it. Ultimately, intention is to be abandoned. "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.038.than.html ........................... Dukkha and its cessation should also be the focus. vft. #91617 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:40 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Regarding: Ph: "I encourage you to keep thinking on this point. (And I am sending citta waves at you to force your mind to do so - sorry.)..." Scott: Good one. No such thing as 'citta waves' so no worries. ;-) Ph: "...For example, if you take a look at Vism VIII, 8-41, the Eight Ways of Recollecting Death...I would say these points at two ways of understanding things, or more. This is just one example, I'm sure the examples of the Buddha teaching at different levels are countless." Scott: Here is the commentary regarding the above, Vism VII 1: "Mindfulness (sati) itself is recollection (anussati) because it arises again and again; or alternatively, the mindfulness (sati) that is proper (anuruupa) for a clansman gone forth out of faith, since it occurs only in those instances where it should occur, is 'recollection' (anussati)...The recollection arisen inspired by death is the recollection of death. This is a term for mindfulness with the termination of the life faculty as its object." Scott: What do you make of this? How does it compare with your own above stated ideas about the recollection of death? Which will you adhere to? Ph: "And while I don't know much about the commentaries, not yet, I can see there are interesting inconsistencies and even oddities pointed out by BB in his anthologies...Here is BB's commentarial note: "Saamayikam pi vimuttim. This expression usually signifies the jhaanas, but here AA explains differently: 'He does not occasionally experience joy and enthusiasm when listening to the Dhamma from time to time.'"...but I just thinking assuming the commentaries are inevitably more trustworthy than the understanding we have accumulated from our study (which includes, of course, studying other commentaries) could be dangerous." Scott: I don't know what you mean by 'dangerous,' Phil. Too much thinking is 'dangerous.' This is some odd notion. I've heard that it is 'dangerous' to study Abhidhamma. This is bad advice. Here is the Paa.li for the Commentarial passage cited by Bh. Bodhi: "Saamayikam pi vimuttim. He does not occasionally experience joy and enthusiasm when listening to the Dhamma from time to time." "Saamaayikampi vimutti.m na labhatiiti kaalaanukaala.m dhammassavana.m nissaaya piitipaamojja.m na labhati." Scott: One would have to know what 'piitipaamojja' refers to. One would have to recall that piiti is a cetasika. One would have to know what an arising of 'joyful interest'(piiti) at such a time would refer to (since pitti is not vedanaa-khanda, it is sankhaara-khanda). One would have to know whether this would be kusala or akusala. One would have to know the function of piiti at that moment of arising. One would require an experience of such an arising of 'piitipaamojja' as well - something to consider. Again, this would all fall to sati - a dhamma which, according to the commentary on the recollections, 'occurs only in those instances where it should occur.' Ph: "I mean, yes, AN III 65 To the Kalamas is probably overused by people to reject texts,..." Scott: You've got that right. I don't buy that usage of the sutta. I think it is misunderstood to mean that one should think for oneself and decide for oneself what one wants any given sutta to mean. Ph: "...but doesn't the 'don't go by traditions etc...when you know for yourselves these things are wholesome, these things are blameless, these things are praised by the wise, these things when undertaken and practiced lead to welfare and happiness' place a certain responsibility on ourselves to test the teaching ourselves, to fend for ourselves, to begin to trust our own understanding. I'm sure you do..." Scott: Most certainly not. 'My understanding' means what I think it means, or what I wish it would mean, or what I want it to mean. 'Understanding' is a function of pa~n~naa. No 'I' or 'my' involved. I think for sure but I sure don't take what I think seriously. I certainly don't take what others think seriously either. Just read the diverse views espoused on this forum - look where it gets people... Ph: "Let me ask you if there is a commentarial passage you're ready to consider rejecting on the basis of understanding gathered elsewhere? I know it sounds like a presumptious thing to do, but surely there could be times." Scott: I don't study this way. I don't question the fact that I accept the commentaries. If something doesn't make sense in the commentaries, I just leave it. I do, however, have a deep distrust for neo-commentaries of all kinds - mine and yours and everyone's. Ph: "For me, one that I reject is the one where it is said that the Buddha knew that all the bhikkhus were going to kill themselves as a result of doing foulness meditation without jhanas...He would have just breezed on in and explained right off what had happened..." Scott: So you think, but there's the problem with thinking. ;-) It says he didn't do that so he didn't. I just leave it alone. Ph: "How about you? Any commentarial passages you would like to question..." Scott: Nope. Ph: "...I will ask you to share some commentarial passages that have been particularly impressive for you..." Scott: Maybe. Depends on the purpose of the exercise... Catch you later, Phil. Sincerely, Scott. #91618 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" visitorfromt... Dear Nina (and Howard), - --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep and Howard, > Op 18-okt-2008, om 4:07 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > > > T: Forever doomed, my friend, we are forever doomed. > ------ > N: We are born human and still have the opportunity to hear the > Dhamma. Listening, understanding, developing. > Nina. > =============== T: I see. At least we can have something to do while falling off the cliff. vft #91619 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:50 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries philofillet Hi Scott > Ph: "I encourage you to keep thinking on this point. (And I am > sending citta waves at you to force your mind to do so - sorry.)..." > > Scott: Good one. No such thing as 'citta waves' so no worries. ;- ) So you think. They haven't got there yet. Probably somewhere near Kamloops by now. You made your position on the commentaries nice and clear, so why don't have to mess around with that anymore. I'll take a look at the specific passage you pointed me to and get back to you next Saturday. I'd really rather discuss specific technical points with you, but your comments about always trusting the commentaries led to a necessary response. Now we can drop that. :) metta, phil #91620 From: Ajahn Jose Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries ajahnjose Dear Phil, I am an old Monk and facing death very soon, but it may come to your surprise that I read the suttas and interpreter the way I want it, also I had some problems with the police but to my amaziment all charges were droped on october 3rd and I can died in peace. I live day to day and enjoy taking care of my three dogs, a cat, 27 parrots, four canaries , 21 finches and one very friendy ferret. Do my chanting morning and evenings with the other Monks in Pali, but I only know the translation of what I am chanting because a book that was given to me as a present by Venerable Dhamanando, from Bangkok. Everytime that a westener became a Monk, any place in the world, I flew from Australia to support them. I was lucky to purchase the entire tipitaca, with all the suttas in English, so slowly I am reading as much as I can. I have enjoyed your talk with Scott and looking forward to see more of that. Metta. Ajahn Jose signature Venerable Yanatharo, Ajahn Jose --- On Sat, 10/18/08, Phil wrote: Hi Scott > P: "At some point I'll put up the SN sutta on the acrobats that we > discussed for more detailed analysis re the commentaries. .." > > Scott: I'll get it in below, since I enjoy the study: Ph: Thanks. Last evening in the bath I was enjoying trying to match the Pali to the English. It would be very interesting to study Pali, but impossible with Japanese to keep developing.. . <....> #91621 From: "www.atulasiriwardane.com" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:23 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue (siila) .. The way to establish awareness.. asiri57 There was a time I was almost suicidal.. without any proper reason... just depressed to the utmost. I went to a Buddhist retreat and just was passing time. One french who was in my next room was leaving after few days... For some reason he talked to me after packing. He asked "what meditations you have practised" I told him few. He told me that 'There is a teacher from India coming soon. I have followed his course 7 times.. Do that. It is good." He didn't say what it is. I did on impulse... and saved my life in every way. It was in 1991.... For the last 17 years I have practiced 13 Ten-day courses, One Satipatthana course, 2 Twenty-day courses and One Thirty-day course. In short, since you asked,.... It is a ten day Vipassana course...Residential. No communication for tendays... Meditate in a group for tendays with regular instructions. Days Anapana and 6 days Vipassana... tenth day Metta. i can't explain it more but I receommend you that it is 100% practical. No imaginations, no verbalisations, no beliefs, no dogmas, no theories. You understand by practicing. Discourses in the evening will explain what you did and why you are doing and how does it help. Visit the site www.dhamma.org and find out more. Read this first... http://www.dhamma.org/en/art.shtml May you find it.... Thanks for asking... Atula --- On Sat, 10/18/08, visitorfromtexas wrote: From: visitorfromtexas Hi Atula, - Interesting! <...> #91622 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries philofillet Dear Bhante > Dear Phil, I am an old Monk and facing death very soon, but it may come to your surprise that I read the suttas and interpreter the way I want it, also I had some problems with the police but to my amaziment all charges were droped on october 3rd and I can died in peace. Ph: It is good news that the charges were dropped. A lot of people were concerned about your situation at various internet groups. >>>I live day to day and enjoy taking care of my three dogs, a cat, 27 parrots, four canaries , 21 finches and one very friendy ferret. Phil: Bhante, you are the Saint Francis of Buddhist monks! http://www.nimblespirit.com/assets/images/StFrancisInterior__2_.jpg How wonderful to have taken care of so many animals. I imagine when we are facing death there are conditions for looking back on all the beings we have taken care of, either actively or by avoiding harming them, and there is encouragement there. I have been teaching English in Japan for 13 years and have taught literally thousands of people, so I imagine I will look back on them. >>>Do my chanting morning and evenings with the other Monks in Pali, but I only know the translation of what I am chanting because a book that was given to me as a present by Venerable Dhamanando, from Bangkok. Everytime that a westener became a Monk, any place in the world, I flew from Australia to support them. Phil: How wonderful to have done that. I rejoice in your kusala! >>>I was lucky to purchase the entire tipitaca, with all the suttas in English, so slowly I am reading as much as I can. Ph: Are there any teaching in particular that are encouraging you these days that you would like to share with us? I'd love to read and reflect on them. >>>>I have enjoyed your talk with Scott and looking forward to see more of that. Thank you, Bhante. If you can find the time, please visit us more often! metta, phil #91623 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:41 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries visitorfromt... Hi Scott (and Phil), - I have a few comments regarding your message #91617. >Scott : 'My understanding' means what I think it means, or what I wish it would mean, or what I want it to mean. 'Understanding' is a function of pa~n~naa. No 'I' or 'my' involved. I think for sure but I sure don't take what I think seriously. I certainly don't take what others think seriously either. T: If you say 'I' and 'my' confound with understanding to result in 'my understanding', then it is right. It is the same as saying that there is no 'I' or 'my' involved in the pure understanding phenomenon which is timeless and ego-less. But it is highly disagreeable and objectionable when you say, "I think for sure but I sure don't take what I think seriously. I certainly don't take what others think seriously either.". That thinking for sure has put you at odds with Scott and "others". Being at odds with yourself is a delusion. >Scott : I don't question the fact that I accept the commentaries. If something doesn't make sense in the commentaries, I just leave it. I do, however, have a deep distrust for neo-commentaries of all kinds - mine and yours and everyone's. T: No good thinkers or trustworthy commentators can be found any more in the today society? Now you are at odds with the whole world ! Tep === #91624 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:13 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear Tep, T: "...No good thinkers or trustworthy commentators can be found any more in the today society? Now you are at odds with the whole world!" Scott: Dhamma is the teacher. Samsaara has nothing to offer. Sincerely, Scott. #91625 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:16 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue (siila) .. The way to establish awareness.. visitorfromt... Hi Atula (and Alex),- Thank you very much for replying to me. >A: >In short, since you asked,.... It is a ten day Vipassana course...Residential. No communication for tendays... Meditate in a group for tendays with regular instructions. �Days Anapana and 6 days Vipassana... tenth day Metta. i can't explain it more but I receommend you that it is 100% practical. No imaginations, no verbalisations, no beliefs, no dogmas, no theories. You understand by practicing. Discourses in the evening will explain what you did and why you are doing and how does it help. >Thanks for asking... T: You're welcome. But many Buddhists I know are not so dedicated to retreats like you. Is retreat necessary for Buddhists? Why can't they practice the magga factors according to the Suttas or the Abhidhamma in daily living environment? Regardless of one's approach, the true test is in the result: are we now better off in terms of steadily reducing lobha, dosa, moha to a significantly lower level than yesterday, last week, or last month? vft #91627 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:36 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries visitorfromt... Dear Scottie, the Dreamer - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > T: "...No good thinkers or trustworthy commentators can be found any > more in the today society? Now you are at odds with the whole world!" > > Scott: Dhamma is the teacher. Samsaara has nothing to offer. > T: Wherelse do you find the Dhamma, if not within Samsaara? vft #91628 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:47 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Regarding: "Dear Scottie, the Dreamer -" Scott: One request, Tep. I don't mind disagreement but were it possible to command restraint, I'd appreciate it if you would please refrain from the apparently endless and certainly needless epithets. Discussion is more than possible without any of this. "Dear Scott" is just fine. T: Where else do you find the Dhamma, if not within Samsaara? Scott: An interesting question. Can you elaborate on your meaning - in particular, on the 'Dhamma within Samsaara' part? Sincerely, Scott. #91629 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:05 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries visitorfromt... Hi Scott, - No more joke! > > Scott: One request, Tep. I don't mind disagreement but were it > possible to command restraint, I'd appreciate it if you would please > refrain from the apparently endless and certainly needless epithets. > Discussion is more than possible without any of this. "Dear Scott" is > just fine. > T: :-) Okay, my apology. > >T: Where else do you find the Dhamma, if not within Samsaara? > > Scott: An interesting question. Can you elaborate on your meaning - > in particular, on the 'Dhamma within Samsaara' part? > T: The Dhamma was discovered by the Bodhisatta who had penetrated Ariya Sacca after his countless births & deaths within the Samsaara. Here too in the Samsaara is where we all see dukkha sacca and dukkha nirodha sacca; we do not see the truths anywhere else. Vft #91630 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:30 am Subject: Re: Is there a "ground of being?" was [dsg] Re: the five khandhas, w moellerdieter Hi Howard and TG, you wrote: 'I had a problem finding it also, Dieter. It is MN 113, not the Anguttara Nikaya sutta by the same name.' D: thanks, Howard .. I was looking for the context .. (M.N. 113 ..e.g. .. Again, bhikkhus, the unworthy one, secluded from sensual desires and things of demerit, with thoughts and thought processes, and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhaana. He reflects, I'm a gainer of the first jhaana, these other bhikkhus are not the gainers of the first jhaana. On account of his first jhaana he praises himself and disparages others. This is a feature of the unworthy one. The worthy one reflects. The Blessed One has said, we should not cling to even the first jhaana. Whatever we imagine it turns to be otherwise.Giving the first preference to not clinging, he does not praise himself or disparage others, on account of the first jhaana. Bhikkhus this is a feature of the worthy one . ' The quote by TG ". in whatever way it is conceived, the fact is ever other than that." , is different in translation with above (tansl. Sister Upalavamna) , especially ' it turn to be otherwise ' . I suppose it means something else. ( Pali version?) and not really fitting to your statement: 'for as soon as we name it, conceptualize it, or describe it, that is not it. ' as it seems to be out of context No purpose to carp on your comment , TG ..I am open to listen to a different point.. with Metta Dieter #91631 From: "www.atulasiriwardane.com" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:39 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue (siila) .. The way to establish awareness.. asiri57 There was a time I was almost suicidal.. without any proper reason... just depressed to the utmost. I went to a Buddhist retreat and just was passing time. One french who was in my next room was leaving after few days... For some reason he talked to me after packing. He asked "what meditations you have practised" I told him few. He told me that 'There is a teacher from India coming soon. I have followed his course 7 times.. Do that. It is good." He didn't say what it is. I did on impulse... and saved my life in every way. It was in 1991.... For the last 17 years I have practiced 13 Ten-day courses, One Satipatthana course, 2 Twenty-day courses and One Thirty-day course. In short, since you asked,.... It is a ten day Vipassana course...Residential. No communication for tendays... Meditate in a group for tendays with regular instructions. Days Anapana and 6 days Vipassana... tenth day Metta. i can't explain it more but I receommend you that it is 100% practical. No imaginations, no verbalisations, no beliefs, no dogmas, no theories. You understand by practicing. Discourses in the evening will explain what you did and why you are doing and how does it help. Visit the site www.dhamma.org and find out more. Read this first... http://www.dhamma.org/en/art.shtml May you find it.... Thanks for asking... Atula #91632 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:13 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. nilovg Dear Tep (and Phil), Op 17-okt-2008, om 23:04 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > Understanding takes time to develop, so it is not powerful enough to > stop defilements in ordinary people. On the other hand, restraint > that is assisted by hiri & ottappa can stop the impulse to initiate a > wrong doing or a wrong view. After that understanding takes over. ------- N: I learnt from the Abhidhamma that hiri and ottappa arise with every kusala citta, kusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa or unaccompanied by pa~n`naa. There are many levels of hiri and ottappa. They also arise with people who never heard the Dhamma. They also realize that akusala harms oneself and others. As understanding develops one realizes more one's different cittas. One gets to know also more subtle akusala. Learning about the processes of citta is most helpful. In an eye-door process seeing arises which is vipaakacitta and then after it there are javana- cittas that are either kusala or akusala. When the citta is not intent on dana, sila or bhavana, the javanacitta is akusala. No need to become discouraged, it is good and wholesome to know the truth that there are far more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas. When looking at a table the cittas are likely to be akusala cittas. They are javanacittas thinking of a concept in a mind-door process. Understanding this more encourages us to learn more about cittas, and that is kusala, and, kusala citta is already accompanied by hiri and ottappa. By conditions! So, let us listen more, study more, consider more with kusala citta accompanied by understanding, even a beginning understanding. Nina. #91633 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:59 pm Subject: Re: No "atta" that does anything truth_aerator Hello Phil and all, > "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Alex > > > > Hi Sarah and all (p.s to Scott) > > >predicatbly, comfort with the idea of the observer. > > > > Isn't that applicable to DSG'ers who stress observation and > > understanding of realities happening now? > > Well, they deny being comfortable with this idea, they claim it's > all about dhammas, don't they? I haven't heard anyone admitting >that there is an observing hungering for wisdom, but yes, I think >that is what must surely be going on a lot of the time... I'd like to add something regarding "doing". Even though ultimately there is no "atta" that does, nama still wills and ruppa that does. There are empty events rising and falling away during *any* activity, including 'practice'. One can study with lingering self view, and one can study without the self view. Ultimately it is just nama events happening in such and such manner. Same with meditation. It *is* possible to meditate with "I want this or that" , "I achieve this or that" and it *is* possible for nama to meditate in lokotarra fashion (without I or Mine belief). IMHO, 2 cents Canadian, Best wishes, #91634 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:14 pm Subject: Is there a "ground of being?" Alex: YES THERE IS ! truth_aerator Hi Phil and all, >"Phil" wrote: >I don't know about that Colette. Personally, I can't find any grounds for this "ground of being" in the Pali canon, There IS such a thing! It is called Craving & Ignorance. When there is craving & ignorance there is rebirth and renewal of "being". When the ignorance & craving have been irreversably stopped, there is no more being in the future, or in the present. There is no more source for renewed "being". There is just "thusness" and emptiness (sunnata). The alaya has been overturned and seeds all burned up. ================================================================= "'People (praja) like the alaya (alayarata), are fond of the alaya (alayarama), are delighted in the alaya (alayasammudita), are attached to the alaya (alayabhirata). When the Dharma is preached for the destruction of the alaya, they wish to listen (susrusanti) and lend their ears (srotram avadadhanti), they put forth a will for the perfect knowledge (ajnacittam upasthapayanti) and follow the path of Truth (dharmanudharma-pratipanna). When the Tathagata appears in the world (pradurbhava), this marvellous (ascarya) and extraordinary (adbhuta) Dharma appears in the world.'" Ekottara agama Pali quote: Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam odahati annacittam upattapeti. Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo patubhavati. The attainment of Nirvana is achieved by 'the revolution of alayavijnana' which is called asrayaparavrtti. The same idea is conveyed by the expression alayasamugghata - 'uprooting of alaya' - which is used in the Pali Canon as a synonym for Nirvana. Here it should be remembered, too, that analaya, 'no-alaya', is another synonym for Nirvana. The alayavijnanaparavrtti is sometimes called bijaparavrtti - 'revolution of the seeds' - as well. Bija here signifies the 'seeds' of defilements (samklesikadharmabija) which cause the continuity of samsara. By the 'revolution of these seeds' one attains Nirvana. Again the Pali term khinabija, which is used to denote an arahant whose seeds of defilements are destroyed', expresses the same idea. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha195.htm ============================================================ Best wishes, #91635 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mirages: was Concept Permanent and unconditioned? kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ------ <. . .> S: > Actually you've had many moments in the sun. Can you remind me of the vacuum cleaner one? ------ Now that you mention it there is just the dimmest of memories, but otherwise, no, I don't remember anything about a vacuum cleaner. :-( I've been keeping up with DSG but without contributing much lately. The whole point, I know, is to contribute - to discuss the Dhamma - and it doesn't matter that there is no getting through to some people. Even so, I have to wonder if there is some other way of getting through. The one liners haven't worked! :-) Another thing I have learnt is to not let these quiet periods last too long. They feed off each other. And so I urge anyone else out there who is going quiet to do what I am doing now: just write something - anything - and POST IT! :-) Ken H #91637 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" jonoabb Hi Howard > Well, the story seems to be that the overwhelming number of mind states > arising are unwholesome, that unwholesome leads only to unwholesome, and that > there is no willing of action that can result in change. Very good, as far as it goes ;-)), ;-)) There is no willing of action that can result in change; but there can be change (and in fact, there is change continuously, like it or not). The change comes about, as Nina points out in her later reply to Tep, from the influence of having heard about, and appreciated, kusala: what it is and how valuable it is and especially, if one is so fortunate, what satipatthana/insight is and how valuable it is. It is the hearing and reflecting on and pondering over that can condition the arising of more and more kusala of all kinds in one's life. No willing of action necessary. Jon #91638 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Tep) - In a message dated 10/18/2008 7:44:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dsgmods@... writes: Hi Howard (and Tep) > Well, the story seems to be that the overwhelming number of mind states > arising are unwholesome, that unwholesome leads only to unwholesome, and that > there is no willing of action that can result in change. Very good, as far as it goes ;-)), ;-)) There is no willing of action that can result in change; but there can be change (and in fact, there is change continuously, like it or not). The change comes about, as Nina points out in her later reply to Tep, from the influence of having heard about, and appreciated, kusala: what it is and how valuable it is and especially, if one is so fortunate, what satipatthana/insight is and how valuable it is. It is the hearing and reflecting on and pondering over that can condition the arising of more and more kusala of all kinds in one's life. No willing of action necessary. Jon =============================== This is a belief system of yours and some others here, Jon. It is not at all what I recognize as Buddhadhamma, however. So, we disagree - - deeply. With metta, Howard #91639 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" visitorfromt... Hi Jon (and Howard, Nina), -- Seeing a fault in others may be caused by one's own fault. How may one find out what the truth is while there is dust in one's eye? Listening and pondering does it all? --- "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Howard > ... ... ... >There is no willing of action that can result in change; but there can be change (and in fact, there is change continuously, like it or not). >The change comes about, as Nina points out in her later reply to Tep, from the influence of having heard about, and appreciated, kusala: what it is and how valuable it is and especially, if one is so fortunate, what satipatthana/insight is and how valuable it is. >It is the hearing and reflecting on and pondering over that can condition the arising of more and more kusala of all kinds in one's life. No willing of action necessary. ======================== T: I am very confident that OGF Howard is capable of giving you a good rebuttal, dear Jon. But I think you might be curious about what Tep thinks. I do not see how one "can condition the arising of more and more kusala of all kinds in one's life" by just "hearing and reflecting on and pondering over kusala: what it is and how valuable it is and especially, if one is so fortunate, what satipatthana/insight is and how valuable it is". How can hearing + reflecting + pondering replace samma vayama and samma sankappa? I do not understand that. Earlier Nina wrote : "But it is a fact that akusala cittas arise more often than kusala cittas, since we have accumulated akusala for aeons.". Given that what she said is true, on what basis do the hearing and reflecting on and pondering over kusala and satipatthana/insight as you suggested above lead to more and more kusala of all kinds in one's life ? What makes the accumulated akusala go away to give all kinds of kusala to accumulate? Are you saying that such "hearing and reflecting on and pondering over kusala and satipatthana/insight" culminate the three right kinds of conduct (kusala kammas in body, speech and mind)? Best wishes to you and Nina! You seem to have found a new way (that the Buddha did not know) to accumulate 'all kinds of kusala' without samma sankappa (right resolve) and samma vayama (right effort). Tep === #91640 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:42 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. visitorfromt... Dear Nina (Han, Howard and all), - Lately I wrote: > Understanding takes time to develop, so it is not powerful enough to > stop defilements in ordinary people. On the other hand, restraint > that is assisted by hiri & ottappa can stop the impulse to initiate a > wrong doing or a wrong view. After that understanding takes over. ------- N: I learnt from the Abhidhamma that hiri and ottappa arise with every kusala citta, kusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa or unaccompanied by pa~n`naa. There are many levels of hiri and ottappa. They also arise with people who never heard the Dhamma. They also realize that akusala harms oneself and others. T: Nina, earlier I did not talk about low-level uninstructed people. According to the Blessed One, 'hiri and ottappa' (concern and conscience) are very valuable when they are "rightly established". {Itivuttaka 36. This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: } 'Those in whom concern & conscience are not always found have strayed from the bright root, are headed to birth & death. 'But those in whom concern & conscience are rightly established always, who are mature in the holy life: they are calm, their further becoming ended.' ..................... N: As understanding develops one realizes more one's different cittas. One gets to know also more subtle akusala. Learning about the processes of citta is most helpful. In an eye-door process seeing arises which is vipaakacitta and then after it there are javana- cittas that are either kusala or akusala. When the citta is not intent on dana, sila or bhavana, the javanacitta is akusala. No need to become discouraged, it is good and wholesome to know the truth that there are far more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas. When looking at a table the cittas are likely to be akusala cittas. They are javanacittas thinking of a concept in a mind-door process. Understanding this more encourages us to learn more about cittas, and that is kusala, and, kusala citta is already accompanied by hiri and ottappa. By conditions! So, let us listen more, study more, consider more with kusala citta accompanied by understanding, even a beginning understanding. Nina. ...................... T: If I understand what you have said correctly, even listening, studying, and considering CAN condition akusala javana cittas, because while we are listening more, studying more, and considering more the citta may not be "intent on dana, sila or bhavana". What is the use of listening to non-ariyans since they do not know the true Dhamma? Only by listening to the true Dhamma given by people who are truly good is the nutriment for conviction (saddha); and that is kusala for sure. You can check that with AN 10.61 Avijja Sutta. Vft . #91641 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:56 pm Subject: Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" .. A Tiny Error ... visitorfromt... Hi Jon and All, - In the earlier post, I wrote : 'What makes the accumulated akusala go away to give all kinds of kusala to accumulate?' Please change it as follows: 'What makes the accumulated akusala go away to give way to all kinds of kusala to accumulate?' Thank you all. Vft #91642 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:32 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,307 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 307. (c) Then the teaching of this [dependent origination] is profound since it needs to be given in various ways for various reasons, and none but omniscient knowledge gets fully established in it; for in some places in the Suttas it is taught in forward order, in some in backward order, in some in forward and backward order, in some in forward or in backward order starting from the middle, in some in four sections and three links, in some in three sections and two links, and in some in two sections and one link. That is why this Wheel of Becoming is profound in teaching. This is the profundity of 'teaching'. ************************ 307. yasmaa cassa tena tena kaara.nena tathaa tathaa pavattetabbattaa desanaapi gambhiiraa, na tattha sabba~n~nuta~n~naa.nato a~n~na.m ~naa.na.m pati.t.tha.m labhati. tathaaheta.m katthaci sutte anulomato, katthaci pa.tilomato, katthaci anulomapa.tilomato, katthaci vemajjhato pa.t.thaaya anulomato vaa pa.tilomato vaa, katthaci tisandhicatusa"nkhepa.m, katthaci dvisandhitisa"nkhepa.m, katthaci ekasandhidvisa"nkhepa.m desita.m, tasmaa ida.m bhavacakka.m desanaagambhiiranti aya.m desanaagambhiirataa. #91643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" nilovg Hi Howard, I know that you always ask: only listening is that enouigh? And do continue asking, that is good. I just heard this morning on a Thai tape: Some people become discouraged after they have heard that the javana- cittas in a process are more often akusala than kusala. But I think that the moment of understanding this is kusala, and there is no discouragement at the moment of kusala. Thus, remember: at the moment of looking at your tree in the garden the javana-cittas are bound to be akusala. Why? When there is no dana, no sila no bhaavanaa, the javana-citta is akusala. We come to understand akusala also when it is more subtle. Nina. Op 19-okt-2008, om 2:00 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > It is the hearing and reflecting on and pondering over that can > condition the arising of more and more kusala of all kinds in one's > life. No willing of action necessary. #91644 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:35 am Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 3, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Pith” (Middle Length Sayings I, no 29) that the Buddha, while he was staying near Råjagaha, on Mount Vulture’s Peak, spoke about a monk who received gains, honurs and fame. We read: “... Because of the gains, honours, fame, he becomes satisfied, his purpose is fulfilled. Because of the gains, honours, fame, he exalts himself, disparages others, thinking: ‘It is I who am a recipient, being famous, but those other monks are little known, of little esteem.” He, because of the gains, honours, fame, is exultant, indolent and falls into sloth; being indolent, he dwells ill....” We then read about a monk who does not think that his purpose is fulfilled when he receives gains, honours and fame, but who develops moral habit, síla, and attains success in this. He then thinks that his purpose is fulfilled. We read the same about a monk who gains success in concentration and then thinks that his purpose is fulfilled, and about a monk who gains “knowledge and vision” and then thinks that his purpose is fulfilled. So long as he has not attained arahatship he has not reached the goal. We read at the end of the sutta that the Buddha said: “... So it is, monks, that this Brahma-faring is not for advantage in gains, honours, fame; it is not for advantage in moral habit, it is not for advantage in concentration, it is not for advantage in knowledge and vision. That, monks, which is unshakable freedom of mind, this is the goal, monks, of this brahma-faring, this is the pith, this is the culmination.” ****** Nina. #91645 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:41 am Subject: Survey Quote. nilovg Dear friends, We are used to enjoying our possessions, but we may begin to realize that we have no possessions at all, that there is just seeing- consciousness which arises and sees and then falls away very rapidly. Where are our possessions at the moments seeing-consciousness does not arise? Our possessions are only that which seeing-consciousness sees when it arises just for a short moment, and therefore, is it right to take what is seen for our possessions? What appears just for an extremely short moment cannot become one’s property, it cannot be owned; it can only appear through the eyes when it is impinging on the eyesense. It is the same with sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. They impinge just for a moment on the relevant sense-door and thus we should not take these realities for “I” or “mine”. We all want to possess many things, we want to have as much as other people, but it all depends on kamma; the vipåka which appears in the present time is produced by a past cause. Therefore, result or vipåka is not in anyone’s power. Nobody can predict which kamma will produce, as result, which vipåkacittas, arising in the different processes when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or the experience of tangible object. --------- Nina. #91646 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" nilovg Dear Tep, Op 19-okt-2008, om 3:34 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > Best wishes to you and Nina! You seem to have found a new way (that > the Buddha did not know) to accumulate 'all kinds of kusala' without > samma sankappa (right resolve) and samma vayama (right effort). --------- N: The Buddha gladdened the monks with his exhortations so that they with happiness and courage would continue to develop understanding until the attainment of arahatship. When we listen to the Buddha's word now, that is by studying and reading the Tipitaka, and also the commentaries, and by discussing Dhamma, there can be more confidence, saddhaa, in the Dhamma. We can also have courage and gladness. As we read in the Vibhanga, one can be ardent, atapii, clearly comprehending, sampajano, and mindful, satima. Atapii, ardent, this is another word for effort, the Co to the Satipatthana sutta states. As to right thinking, samma sankappa, this arises with kusala citta, and in particular with right understanding of the eightfold Path. Right effort and right thinking are cetasikas that arise when the appropriate conditions are present. We cannot own them. Nina. #91647 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:56 am Subject: Re: DSG's method for Attaining Ariyanhood ... No Practice, No Ariyans ... jonoabb Hi vft > T: Yes, and it is true that the sense of self at this stage is also > an important driver for development of higher kusalas and abandoning > of tougher defilements. I wouldn't call wrong view of self an "important driver". We'd be much better off without it, surely. Since there is already some appreciation of the urgency of the task of developing insight, this would be sufficient motivating force, I believe. > T: Because intention is "present regardless of whether the > consciousness is kusala or akusala", that's why it is necessary that > we fully understand it. Ultimately, intention is to be abandoned. Yes, ultimately, intention is to be abandoned. But "abandoned" here means "understood", I believe (I think you'd remember the passage about the different kinds of abandoning). The arahant still has intention, of course. > Dukkha and its cessation should also be the focus. Yes, dukkha as one of the characteristics of all conditioned dhammas, and as part of the four noble truths, is one of those things that is to be fully penetrated. Jon PS Regarding: > T: ;-) I promise I will never "bite your head off" even if you are > ten times more stubborn, Jon. > .............................. I must insist that it's not a case of being stubborn. Absolutely not. No way. Never. ;-)) ;-)) #91648 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" jonoabb Hi Howard > It is the hearing and reflecting on and pondering over that can > condition the arising of more and more kusala of all kinds in one's > life. No willing of action necessary. > =============================== > This is a belief system of yours and some others here, Jon. Are you saying that the notion that hearing, reflecting on and pondering over the teachings can condition the arising of more kusala in one's life is not found in the texts? There are endless suttas in which the importance of hearing the teachings, and of doing so repeatedly and from the "right" person is mentioned and indeed stressed. > It is not at > all what I recognize as Buddhadhamma, however. Please consider the significance of SN 55 (Sotapatti-samyutta), 5. 'Sariputta' "What is a factor for stream-entry? "Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry..." [These same 4 factors are also given as things which, "when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining … , growth … and expansion of wisdom, … to greatness of wisdom" SN 55, 59-62] Jon #91649 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" jonoabb Hi Tep > How can hearing + reflecting + pondering replace samma vayama and > samma sankappa? I do not understand that. There is no question of that. The mental factors (cetasikas) of viriya and vitakka/vicara, of the appropriate level, accompany every moment of awareness/mundane insight. The four sota-patti-anga, just mentioned in my post to Howard, are not particular cetasikas, they are general factors. The four sota-patti-anga are factors that are prerequisite to the arsing of moments of awareness/insight. The mental factors of viriya and vitakka/vicara, on the other hand, are do not precede awareness/insight, they accompany it. > What makes the accumulated akusala go away to give way to all kinds of > kusala to accumulate? No accumulated tendencies, whether wholesome or unwholesome, 'go away'. When not actually arising they are lying dormant. So the question really is what makes kusala tendencies arise? Well firstly, nobody has unremitting akusala, so there's nothing special about there being kusala in the midst of a life of akusala. Secondly. moments of kusala are conditioned by many factors, but the most significant of these would, I believe, be the degree to which they have already been accumulated and the circumstances in which they have arisen on previous occasions (accustomed object). Jon #91650 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:25 am Subject: Re: anupubbasikkhaa jonoabb Hi Han (and Sarah) I've been following this thread, and wondering if the aanupubbasikkhaa (gradual training - adhissila, adhicitta and adhipa~n~naa) and aanupubbikathaa (gradual teaching) should not be considered 2 separate things. To my understanding, the aanupubbikathaa is the teaching given by the Buddha to persons whom he perceives are ready for enlightenment. As far as I know, the fortunate listener invariably becomes enlightened (sotapanna at least, sometimes higher) on hearing the discourse. The aanupubbasikkhaa, on the other hand, seems to be a statement of the fact that sila is perfected (i.e., by attainment of stream entry) before samadhi (i.e., by attainment of anagami), and samadhi before panna (i.e., by attainment of arahantship). Just a comment to throw into the discussion. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > ... > Han: As a matter of fact, I like your short explanation better than the Commentary which is like a shopping list. Yes, the gradual training can be the Six Kathaas as I mentioned before, or it can be the gradual training of siila, samaadhi, pa~n~naa. Yet, another possibility is the gradual training through daana, siila, and bhaavanaa. Or, it can still be a mixture of all these steps. > > Whatever training module one chooses, as you rightly said, all these steps must be with the right understanding. Like in the Noble Eightfold Path, one starts with right understanding (sammaa ditthi) and culminates in right understanding (magga ~naana and phala ~naana). > > Thank you very much. > Respectfully, > Han #91651 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anupubbasikkhaa hantun1 Dear Jon (Sarah), I consider the aanupubbasikkhaa (gradual training - adhissila, adhicitta and adhipa~n~naa) as a training manual, and aanupubbikathaa (gradual teaching) as an underlying philosophy or basic considerations for carrying out the gradual training. Han #91652 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:22 am Subject: Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" philofillet Hi students of Ajahn Sujin > Please consider the significance of SN 55 (Sotapatti-samyutta), 5. > 'Sariputta' > > "What is a factor for stream-entry? > "Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. > Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful > attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with > the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry..." You know I've mentionned a growing suspicion that there is a kind of cult built around listening to Ajahn Sujin, that the unwillgness or inability to admit an error on her part, for example, means there is clinging to her being an Ariyan and to the notion that by listening to an Ariyan one can become an Ariyan. And this must surely be the sutta behind it all. Please be aware that this wrong view (silabbataparamasa) can lead to a kind of arrogance about having the "true Dhamma" while others don't have it. And that arrogance could in itself be sign that one isn't really tuned into the true Dhamma. This arrogance that I came to perceive when listening to the talks and when discussing Dhamma with students of AS "live" (not the recent Skype talks, mind you) is why I don't listen to the talks anymore. It doesn't come through here very often, but please listen carefully for it, people who listen to the talks, and reflect on the dangers of it! Please listen for any instances where "meditators", for example, are talked about with terms and in tones that aren't used here. If there aren't any instances, fine. But if there are, it's a sign of things gone wrong, of the wrong speech of speaking with a forked tongue. And listen when the tape machine is turned off to what people say about Buddhists who do not share A.S views. Is there a sympathetic and friendly tone, a sense of respect for people who share enthusiasm for the Dhamma but who see things differently, or is there arrogance and contempt? Are there any instances where someone is heard to "rejoice in the appreciation of the Dhamma" of someone who *doesn't* see things like AS? Please listen, for your own sakes. If I am wrong, good, but I just want to say this. I think I've earned a little capital by being a little less obnoxious than usual recently, and I will spend it on this post, which is written, I believe, with kusala intent. I won't have anything to add to it. Thanks. metta, phil #91653 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/19/2008 2:50:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I know that you always ask: only listening is that enouigh? And do continue asking, that is good. I just heard this morning on a Thai tape: Some people become discouraged after they have heard that the javana- cittas in a process are more often akusala than kusala. But I think that the moment of understanding this is kusala, and there is no discouragement at the moment of kusala. Thus, remember: at the moment of looking at your tree in the garden the javana-cittas are bound to be akusala. Why? When there is no dana, no sila no bhaavanaa, the javana-citta is akusala. We come to understand akusala also when it is more subtle. Nina. ============================ Thank you for writing, Nina. :-) With metta, Howard #91654 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/19/2008 4:58:20 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > It is the hearing and reflecting on and pondering over that can > condition the arising of more and more kusala of all kinds in one's > life. No willing of action necessary. > =============================== > This is a belief system of yours and some others here, Jon. Are you saying that the notion that hearing, reflecting on and pondering over the teachings can condition the arising of more kusala in one's life is not found in the texts? ------------------------------------------- Howard: It's alleged sufficiency is not. You give this as the alpha & omega of Dhamma practice. It is not. ------------------------------------------ There are endless suttas in which the importance of hearing the teachings, and of doing so repeatedly and from the "right" person is mentioned and indeed stressed. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I am the last to deny the necessity of hearing the Buddhadhamma. --------------------------------------- > It is not at > all what I recognize as Buddhadhamma, however. Please consider the significance of SN 55 (Sotapatti-samyutta), 5. 'Sariputta' "What is a factor for stream-entry? "Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry..." ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, a factor, ONE factor. The careful attention and the practice then referred to are not the attention and practice of the scholar, but of the listener to the Dhamma who then *follows* that Dhamma. --------------------------------------- [These same 4 factors are also given as things which, "when developed and cultivated, lead to the obtaining … , growth … and expansion of wisdom, … to greatness of wisdom" SN 55, 59-62] ========================== With metta, Howard #91655 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Mirages: was Concept Permanent and unconditioned? gazita2002 hello KenH, I'll give it a go ... Baaloo - the foolish person. if a fool knows he is a fool that awareness can make him wise. the basis of true wisdom is the right knowledge of things as they really are ......and now i've run outa internet time Patience courage and good cheer, azita #91656 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Fri, 17/10/08, upasaka@... wrote: --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- Howard: Rupas, for example, are dukkha. They are unsatisfactory in that no lasting satisfaction is attainable through them and, moreover, craving them and clinging to them leads to suffering. .... S: I would say simply that rupas (and all conditioned dhammas) are dukkha (unsatisfactory) because they are impermanent. .... H:> But they are NOT themselves suffering, intrinsic or extrinsic, because suffering is a nama - suffering is mental pain, and they are not that nama or any nama. Sarah, words really do have meaning. .... S: I prefer 'unsatisfactory' in translation as well. However, 'suffering' is common and when used in an absolute sense, refers to dhammas as dukkha on account of their impermanence. Dukkha as referring to unpleasant feeling is dukkha dukkha, the meaning of dukkha which is readily apparent even to those who have never heard the Buddha's teachings. .... ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- SN 22:10 (BB transl.): "Bhikkhus, form is suffering, both of the past and the future, not to speak of the present..... Feeling.. .Perception. ..volitional formations.. ..Consciousness. ..." ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- >Howard: Simply abysmally bad usage. The fact that it is common doesn't make it good. It is terrible! ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- S: Probably safest to leave dukkha untranslated! Clearly in context, suffering is referring to dukkha, the unsatisfactoriness of all conditioned dhammas. "What is impermanent is suffering." (SN 22:15) ... >H:> But when TG writes "conglomeration of conditions which all lead to one thing....Dukkha, " that is a nominal usage, with 'dukkha' mean "suffering". What is meant by 'dukkha' depends on the speech context. .... >S: Here perhaps you are referring to the meaning of dukkha as unpleasant bodily and mental feeling? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- >Howard: I am referring to mental pain, ranging from mild dissatisfaction to extreme aversion. It is aversive emotional reaction. That is what suffering is. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- S: So you read TG's sentence as saying: "conglomeration of conditions which all lead to one thing....Dukkha (mental pain), " It doesn't mean much to me. Are you suggesting that all conditions lead to mental pain? .... >S:>In the context, I believe we were discussing conditioned dhammas or realities as being Dukkha as in sabbe sankhara dukkha. This would be the meaning of dukkha in my comments above. ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- >Howard: Here 'dukkha' should be translated as 'unsatisfactory' , 'unsatisfying' , 'imperfect', or 'conducive' to aversion. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- S: The point being that sabbe sankhara dukkha (all conditioned dhammas are dukkha [unsatisfactory]), but not all conditioned dhammas are "'conducive' to aversion". It is the clinging to sense objects which conditions aversion on account of their impermanence and unsatisfactoriness, surely? This is probably what you mean, anyway:-) Metta, Sarah ========== #91657 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:48 am Subject: Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" philofillet Hi again Wrote a bit of a silly post, didn't I? But I guess since it is based on a perception, it is worth noting the perception. If there is nothing to it, no harm done. (Unless I caused anyone grief by it, which I highly doubt after all the other similar things I've written.) If there *is* any truth to the perception, it could be helpful. > > You know I've mentionned a growing suspicion that there is a kind > of cult built around listening to Ajahn Sujin, that the unwillgness > or inability to admit an error on her part, for example, means there > is clinging to her being an Ariyan and to the notion that by > listening to an Ariyan one can become an Ariyan. And this must > surely be the sutta behind it all. > Please be aware that this wrong view (silabbataparamasa) can lead > to a kind of arrogance about having the "true Dhamma" while others > don't have it. Ph: I guess this is wrong, technically speaking. There are cases of where just listening to Ariyans conditions enlightenment when the other conditions are in place. But still worth considering whether there is any wrong view involved in the intense desire to listen to Ajahn Sujin. Can her talks be put away for weeks or months at a time? I was always a bit concerned by hearing Nina say that when she went back to Europe after an India trip with many talks that all that she heard would be gone, that she would forget it all. A simple exaggeration, I guess, but to me it indicated placing too much weight on the words of A.S. Sorry Nina, but you know, we are told that we should say what we think might be helpful no matter whether others will think us foolish and so on.... I'll drop this now and serve a week of penance. See you again next Saturday. metta, phil #91658 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thoughts on pannati sarahprocter... Dear Alberto, Thanks for the clarification: --- On Sat, 18/10/08, alberto.spera wrote: >Dear Sarah, thanks for your feedback, I was trying to say that what arises by default, due to kilesa, is akusala-dhamma (citta composed with miccha-sati) , which can be aware only of thoughts/pannati. .... S: Yes! Impressed:-) Metta, Sarah ========== #91659 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/19/2008 8:20:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- On Fri, 17/10/08, upasaka@... wrote: --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- Howard: Rupas, for example, are dukkha. They are unsatisfactory in that no lasting satisfaction is attainable through them and, moreover, craving them and clinging to them leads to suffering. .... S: I would say simply that rupas (and all conditioned dhammas) are dukkha (unsatisfactory) because they are impermanent. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Their being impermanent is a condition for dissatisfaction due to clinging to things - due to wanting no alteration. When there is no craving for permanence, there is no dissatisfaction with change. Impermanence IS a condition for dukkha, but not a sufficient one. In fact, it is tanha that is the primary condition for dukkha, and that is the content of the 2nd noble truth: "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of dukkha: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming." ----------------------------------------------- .... H:> But they are NOT themselves suffering, intrinsic or extrinsic, because suffering is a nama - suffering is mental pain, and they are not that nama or any nama. Sarah, words really do have meaning. .... S: I prefer 'unsatisfactory' in translation as well. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Good! :-) That adjectival usage is actually the main usage for the word 'dukha'. In fact, there exists the nominalization, 'dukhatta', of that adjective that means "suffereing." ----------------------------------------------- However, 'suffering' is common and when used in an absolute sense, refers to dhammas as dukkha on account of their impermanence. Dukkha as referring to unpleasant feeling is dukkha dukkha, the meaning of dukkha which is readily apparent even to those who have never heard the Buddha's teachings. .... ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- SN 22:10 (BB transl.): "Bhikkhus, form is suffering, both of the past and the future, not to speak of the present..... Feeling.. .Perception. ..volitional formations.. ..Consciousness. ..." ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- >Howard: Simply abysmally bad usage. The fact that it is common doesn't make it good. It is terrible! ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- S: Probably safest to leave dukkha untranslated! Clearly in context, suffering is referring to dukkha, the unsatisfactoriness of all conditioned dhammas. "What is impermanent is suffering." (SN 22:15) ... >H:> But when TG writes "conglomeration of conditions which all lead to one thing....Dukkha, " that is a nominal usage, with 'dukkha' mean "suffering". What is meant by 'dukkha' depends on the speech context. .... >S: Here perhaps you are referring to the meaning of dukkha as unpleasant bodily and mental feeling? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- >Howard: I am referring to mental pain, ranging from mild dissatisfaction to extreme aversion. It is aversive emotional reaction. That is what suffering is. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- S: So you read TG's sentence as saying: "conglomeration of conditions which all lead to one thing....Dukkha (mental pain), " It doesn't mean much to me. Are you suggesting that all conditions lead to mental pain? -------------------------------------------- Howard: I forget the full original context. You would have to take that up with TG. As for your question, no, not all groups of conditions lead to dukkha. Tanha is requisite. --------------------------------------------- .... >S:>In the context, I believe we were discussing conditioned dhammas or realities as being Dukkha as in sabbe sankhara dukkha. This would be the meaning of dukkha in my comments above. ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- >Howard: Here 'dukkha' should be translated as 'unsatisfactory' , 'unsatisfying' , 'imperfect', or 'conducive' to aversion. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- S: The point being that sabbe sankhara dukkha (all conditioned dhammas are dukkha [unsatisfactory]), but not all conditioned dhammas are "'conducive' to aversion". It is the clinging to sense objects which conditions aversion on account of their impermanence and unsatisfactoriness, surely? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think we are in disagreement, Sarah. Actually, all conditioned dhammas are conducive to aversion, but not sufficient on their own. Tanha, as craving of presence or of absence, is the fundamental condition for misery. --------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- This is probably what you mean, anyway:-) -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yeah. As I said, I don't think there's any substantive disagreement between us on this matter, ------------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard #91660 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thoughts on pannati sarahprocter... Dear Alberto, A small modification: --- On Sun, 19/10/08, sarah abbott wrote: A:>Dear Sarah, thanks for your feedback, I was trying to say that what arises by default, due to kilesa, is akusala-dhamma (citta composed with miccha-sati) , which can be aware only of thoughts/pannati. .... >S: Yes! New S: Generally so. Of course there can be kilesa arising with a paramattha dhamma as object, such as attachment during the javana process when visible object or sound is experienced. Generally speaking, however, most kilesa arises in mind door processes when thoughts/pannati are experienced. Metta, Sarah ======== #91661 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Rupa & Impermanence -- Its Meanings in the Suttas vs the Abhidh... sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: TG:> NO NO NO! The Buddha said the THE FIVE > AGGREGATES were like a mirage, like a conjurer's trick, empty, hollow, coreless, and insubstantial. Please deal with question at hand and the BUDDHA'S > Teaching. .... S: Yes, the five khandhas are 'empty of self': SN 22:17 (BB transl): "At Saavatthi. 'Bhikkhus, form is nonself.....Feeling....Perception...Volitional formations....Consciousness is nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' "Seeing thus....He understands: 'there is no more for this state of being.'" Metta, Sarah ======== #91662 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Sun, 19/10/08, Phil wrote: >Wrote a bit of a silly post, didn't I? But I guess since it is based on a perception, it is worth noting the perception. If there is nothing to it, no harm done. (Unless I caused anyone grief by it, which I highly doubt after all the other similar things I've written.) If there *is* any truth to the perception, it could be helpful. ... S: I'm quite sure no one will be grieving, don't worry:-) I appreciate your kindly intentions. When I first started listening to recordings of KS it was because immediately what she said and her expalantions of the Dhamma made really good sense, bringing what I had been reading and considering back to 'Now' - present moment realities. Yes, we live in a dream-world most the time, forgetting that there is just seeing of visible object or hearing of sound and then long, long stories. Meditation can only ever be at this moment. What a relief it was to hear this stressed so much. And now when I listen to recordings, I have just the same reaction of 'yes, these are the reminders of dhammas now' which we also read about throughout the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries. I'm sure it's much the same for Alberto, Scott, Ken H and others - the Dhamma takes on an 'immediacy' and real relevance to daily life at the present moment. I'm sure none of these people are much interested in KS's personal life, the long story about 'her attainments' or counting how much akusala moments she or her listeners may have. It's just a question of hearing and considering and understanding more about seeing, visible object and thinking now. So simple, yet so profound. These are the teachings of the Buddha. By listening to the wise, we understand we're listening to/reading what the Buddha and his disciples taught us with such compassion. I do agree with you, however, that any comparing or 'putting-down' in any circumstance indicates conceit and a lack of metta at such a time. I think we'll all learn to see that it's very much more common than we could possibly imagine and it's helpful to have good friends like yourself to remind us. So if anyone thinks 'that was a silly post of Phil's (or Sarah's)', you've be cautioned:-). Metta, Sarah =========== #91663 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" visitorfromt... Hi Howard (Phil, Nina, Jon), - Listening well : what does it mean? --- upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > ... > Howard: > Listening, considering, and learning in that manner is useful, provided one realizes that it is only thinking, only indirect, only a pointing, and not genuine, face-to-face knowing. > --------------------------------------------- The following suttas list the conditions for originating genuine, face-to-face knowing or "alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities " while listening to the true Dhamma. "When the Doctrine & Discipline declared by the Tathagata is being taught, he listens well, gives ear, applies his mind to gnosis, rejects what is worthless, grabs hold of what is worthwhile, and is endowed with the patience to conform with the teaching. [AN 6.88 Sussusa Sutta] "He is not endowed with a [present] kamma obstruction, a defilement obstruction, or a result-of-[past]-kamma obstruction; he has conviction, has the desire [to listen], and is discerning. [AN 6.86 Avaranata Sutta] "He has not killed his mother; he has not killed his father; he has not killed an arahant; he has not, with corrupt intent, caused the blood of a Tathagata to flow; he has not caused a split in the Sangha; and he is a discerning person, not slow or dull-witted. [AN 6.87 Kammavaranata Sutta] ................ Tep === #91664 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. sarahprocter... Hi James, --- On Wed, 15/10/08, buddhatrue wrote: >> S: We've been over this before, but I'd just like to point out that the Buddha had the greatest compassion of all and he is the one who taught us that all dhammas are anatta. >James: Yeah, but he never taught that people don't exist. I have yet to read a sutta where the Buddha states categorically that people don't exist. You really should provide a sutta if you are so sure of this. Aren't you even the slightest bit nervous that you are saying something which isn't true? You have such faith in Buddhaghosa? ... S: I have such fairth in dhammas as anatta. I have quoted suttas, but you have a different interpretation of them and if I add the Abhidhamma or ancient commentaries, you (and others) say they don't agree with the Buddha's teachings. So best to leave it there or just talk about realities such as seeing and visible object:-). ... S:> I know there seems to be a conflict when we say 'no person' but metta and compassion have person as object. However, at moments of metta and compassion, there is no wrong view of person at all. There is no idea that a person exists at such a moment. >James: When compassion has a person as object it is known that the person exists. .... S: At the moment of compassion, there's no view either way, there's just the citta with compassion on account of the perceived suffering of someone. Any view that the person exists or doesn't exist arises before or afterwards or both. .... S:> In the same way, the Buddha could think about and have compassion for everyone, but still have no illusion about there being anything other than namas and rupas in actuality. >James: If there are namas and rupas then there are people. What do you think people are composed of? Nothing? .... S: If there are namas as well as rupas, then there are namas as well as rupas! That's why we don't have compassion for a log of wood! If there were only rupas, then there'd be no mental grief, no lack of happiness, nothing to be compassionate about. Yes, we talk about logs of wood and people, but actually, there are only rupas or rupas and namas. ... S:> Metta (and not just lipservice either, James!!) >James: I know that your metta is sincere. The ironic thing Sarah is that you are a very compassionate person who recognizes the existence of people! You knew all of your students and individuals and cared about them as individuals. I have never seen an expression from you to support the idea that people don't exist. The only lipservice you give is to the notion that people don't exist when you don't really believe that or demonstrate that in daily life. ... S: ;-) Thank you for your kind comments. I think this points to the mis-understanding that if we show compassion and friendliness to people it is an indicator of a belief in people existing. The namas which we call James's or Sarah's still wish to be happy, still grieve over losses, still cling to what is inherently unsatisfactory. It's the same for us all, so why not be kind and helpful? There's no need to have an idea of 'people' in any absolute sense for such wholesome mental states to arise as I see it. (Actually, I think quite the contrary, but we can leave it here if you wish.) Metta, Sarah ======= #91665 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rupa -- Its Meanings in the Suttas vs the Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Tep, --- On Wed, 15/10/08, visitorfromtexas wrote: >T: You're insisting that unshakable saddha only belongs to Stream- winner or a higher level of ariya-puggalas. It is relative. Yes, a sotapanna's saddha is solidly unshakable in comparison to puthujjanas. ... S: Yes, we agree here. As you say, it's relative. Saddha is confidence in the Dhamma and this can only grow through the development of the path factors. ... T:> But what I talked about in the last post was to emphasize that saddha in AN 10.61 must be strong enough as the supporting condition for yoniso-manasikara and other "heavy-duty" dhammas on top of it. >And I tell you, ignorance has its nutriment. It is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? The five hindrances.. . And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? The three forms of misconduct.. . And what is the nutriment for the three forms of misconduct? Lack of restraint of the senses... And what is the nutriment for lack of restraint of the senses? Lack of mindfulness & alertness... And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness & alertness? Inappropriate attention... And what is the nutriment for inappropriate attention? Lack of conviction.. . And what is the nutriment for lack of conviction? Not hearing the true Dhamma... And what is the nutriment for not hearing the true Dhamma? Associating with people who are not truly good.. [AN 10.61] ............ ......... .... S: Yes, if we haven't heard (and understood) the "true Dhamma", there cannot be any saddha at all. ... >>S: So the beginning is the understanding of namas and rupas now. >T: I don't think so even a million years from now. ;-) ... S: What is "hearing the true Dhamma" if not a beginning of understanding (intellectually) about namas and rupas now? ;-) .... >>S: p.s. By the way, I was interested to hear your daughter will be in Afghanistan for a couple of months! ... >T: Thank you for the kind & polite interest. It isn't a great news to me that she has been ordered by the U.S. Air Force to perform the duty as a surgeon in that war zone. However, almost every other doctors have already been there. Fair deal. No complain. ... S: That's a very special opportunity and important job. I travelled in Afghanistan when I was young (en route to India) and loved the country and its people. I wish her well and hope you manage to 'skype' with her. Thanks for your feedback, Tep. Metta, Sarah ========= #91666 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and James) - With regard to the following post of yours, Sarah, I have the following comment and question for you: It is Abhidhamma teaching, I have come to understand, that every citta & cetasika has a unique object. What is the object at a moment of compassion? If you answer "A concept," I have to wonder at someone having compassion for an idea, because, while people think and feel and are distressed, thereby eliciting compassion, an idea does not think and feel and experience distress. In fact, as I have seen folks here discuss concepts, concepts are often referred to as not existing at all, and for that usage, compassion would be insanity, and the Buddha's speaking of karuna as divine would be a promoting of insanity, With metta, Howard /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) _______________________________ In a message dated 10/19/2008 9:54:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi James, --- On Wed, 15/10/08, buddhatrue wrote: >> S: We've been over this before, but I'd just like to point out that the Buddha had the greatest compassion of all and he is the one who taught us that all dhammas are anatta. ... #91664 ... #91667 From: "connie" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:32 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Corner: Threes (13-18) nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing from previous set: #91393 Threes (7-12) (cy: #91403, #91483): CSCD < Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:35 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Regarding:] T: "Okay, my apology." Scott: Thank you. T: "Where else do you find the Dhamma, if not within Samsaara?...The Dhamma was discovered by the Bodhisatta who had penetrated Ariya Sacca after his countless births & deaths within the Samsaara. Here too in the Samsaara is where we all see dukkha sacca and dukkha nirodha sacca; we do not see the truths anywhere else." Scott: Yes. MN 38 Mahaata.nhaasa"nkhayasutta.m "'Bhikkhus, knowing and seeing in this way (eva.m jaanantaa eva.m passantaa aparanta.m vaa pa.tidhaaveyyaatha), would you speak thus: 'The teacher is respected by us. We speak as we do out of respect for the Teacher?' - 'No, venerable sir,' - 'Knowing and seeing in this way would you speak thus: 'The Recluse says this and we speak thus at the bidding of the Recluse?' - 'No, venerable sir,' - 'Knowing and seeing this would you acknowledge another teacher?' - 'No, venerable sir,' - 'Knowing and seeing this would you return to the observances, tumultuous debates, and auspicious signs of ordinary recluses and brahmins, taking them as the core of [of the holy life]?' - 'No, venerable sir,' - 'Do you speak only of what you have known, seen, and understood for yourselves?' (yadeva tumhaaka.m saama.m ~naata.m saama.m di.t.tha.m saama.m vidita.m, tadeva tumhe vadethaa) - 'Yes, venerable sir.' "'Good, bhikkhus. So you have been guided by me with this Dhamma, which is visible here and now; immediately effective, inviting inspection, onward leading; to be experienced by the wise for themselves. For it was with reference to this that is has been said: 'Bhikkhus, this Dhamma is visible here and now, immediately effective, inviting inspection; onward leading, to be experienced by the wise for themselves.'" Saadhu, bhikkhave, upaniitaa kho me tumhe, bhikkhave, iminaa sandi.t.thikena dhammena akaalikena ehipassikena opaneyyikena paccatta.m veditabbena vi~n~nuuhi. Sandi.t.thiko aya.m, bhikkhave, dhammo akaaliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccatta.m veditabbo vi~n~nuuhi â€" iti yanta.m vutta.m, idameta.m pa.ticca vutta''nti. Scott: This, to me is how the Dhamma is the teacher. And dhammas, those which bear their own nature (dhaarati), are the means by which the Dhamma is effective. Sn 1035 (1041 Paa.li) "The currents flowing in the world, O Ajita, Said the Exalted One, these may By mindfulness be checked, this is the restraint I teach, By insight they may be shut in - " "Yaani sotaani lokasmi.m, (ajitaati bhagavaa) Sati tesa.m nivaara.na.m; Sotaana.m sa.mvara.m bruumi, pa~n~naayete pidhiyyare." Sincerely, Scott. #91669 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" scottduncan2 Dear Phil (and Sarah), Regarding: S: "...Meditation can only ever be at this moment. What a relief it was to hear this stressed so much. And now when I listen to recordings, I have just the same reaction of 'yes, these are the reminders of dhammas now' which we also read about throughout the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries. I'm sure it's much the same for Alberto, Scott, Ken H and others - the Dhamma takes on an 'immediacy' and real relevance to daily life at the present moment. I'm sure none of these people are much interested in KS's personal life, the long story about 'her attainments' or counting how much akusala moments she or her listeners may have..." Scott: Yes, this is my experience as well. I don't really even think about Kh. Sujin as a person. As I often suggest, she is not my teacher. I don't really believe in 'teachers' - the person or personality or identity. Its just: 'Is the Dhamma in what is spoken?' And sometimes I'll listen to the recordings and sometimes I don't. I listen just listen. That I hear that which fits and makes sense and is not discordant for me is not mine to have experienced - it just fits. I can't help when no doubt arises. And I am slowly reading Kh. Sujin's texts and checking references - not to be thought a witless fool. ;-) Better to consider Dhamma. Sincerely, Scott. #91670 From: "connie" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:00 am Subject: Vism.XVII,307 nichiconn re: #91642 Path of Purity, p.704 And because it is taught for various reasons and in various ways, the teaching is profound, in which no knowledge other than omniscience finds a resting-place. For it is taught in some suttas by the direct method, in others by the reverse method, sometimes by the direct and reverse method, sometimes by the direct or reverse method from the middle, sometimes only three joints and four sections, sometimes two joints and three sections, sometimes one joint and two sections - therefore is this wheel of becoming profound in the teaching. This is the profundity of teaching. #91671 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:44 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries visitorfromt... Dear Scott, - Thank you for the Pali text for the two suttas. After the text for MN 38 about the Dhamma being "visible here and now [sandi.t.thikena dhammena] immediately effective[akaalikena], inviting inspection[ehipassikena], onward leading[opaneyyiko]; to be experienced by the wise for themselves" [paccatta.m veditabbo vi~n~nuuhiiti ], you rightly observe : >Scott: >This, to me is how the Dhamma is the teacher. And dhammas, those which bear their own nature (dhaarati), are the means by which the Dhamma is effective. T: I disagree with you about the Dhamma being the teacher, since the Dhamma was taught by the Buddha, so it makes sense that the Buddha is our Teacher, while the Dhamma is our refuge. By the way, what do you understand "bearing their own nature" means ? The second sutta is even more interesting. "The currents flowing in the world, O Ajita, Said the Exalted One, these may By mindfulness be checked, this is the restraint I teach, By insight they may be shut in - " "Yaani sotaani lokasmi.m, (ajitaati bhagavaa) Sati tesa.m nivaara.na.m; Sotaana.m sa.mvara.m bruumi, pa~n~naayete pidhiyyare." T: We know that restraint(samvara) is one kind of siila -- i.e. 'virtue as restraint' as presented in my first post on virtue. But the above sutta states that sati restrains (checks) nivaarana (hindrances). Does it mean that sati functions as siila? Can siila also function as sati to stop or check the flow of kilesas? Can pa~n~naa also restrain the tide of kilesas to a certain extent as well? Tep === #91672 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:05 am Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,307 .. Comment, please .. visitorfromt... Hi Larry and Connie, - As a reader of this series I like to see a comment or two from you, the presenters, if you don't mind. >Larry: 307. (c) Then the teaching of this [dependent origination] is profound since it needs to be given in various ways for various reasons, and none but omniscient knowledge gets fully established in it; for in some places in the Suttas it is taught in forward order, in some in backward order, in some in forward and backward order, in some in forward or in backward order starting from the middle, in some in four sections and three links, in some in three sections and two links, and in some in two sections and one link. That is why this Wheel of Becoming is profound in teaching. This is the profundity of 'teaching'. ************************ >Connie: And because it is taught for various reasons and in various ways, the teaching is profound, in which no knowledge other than omniscience finds a resting-place. For it is taught in some suttas by the direct method, in others by the reverse method, sometimes by the direct and reverse method, sometimes by the direct or reverse method from the middle, sometimes only three joints and four sections, sometimes two joints and three sections, sometimes one joint and two sections - therefore is this wheel of becoming profound in the teaching. This is the profundity of teaching. My comment is : I do not understand why the Wheel of Becoming is profound just because "it is taught for various reasons and in various ways". Isn't it profound simply because of its significance and its implications? Tep === #91673 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:20 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear Tep, T: "...The second sutta is even more interesting." "The currents flowing in the world, O Ajita, Said the Exalted One, these may By mindfulness be checked, this is the restraint I teach, By insight they may be shut in - " "Yaani sotaani lokasmi.m, (ajitaati bhagavaa) Sati tesa.m nivaara.na.m; Sotaana.m sa.mvara.m bruumi, pa~n~naayete pidhiyyare." T: "We know that restraint(samvara) is one kind of siila -- i.e. 'virtue as restraint' as presented in my first post on virtue. But the above sutta states that sati restrains (checks) nivaarana (hindrances). Does it mean that sati functions as siila? Can siila also function as sati to stop or check the flow of kilesas? Can pa~n~naa also restrain the tide of kilesas to a certain extent as well?" Scott: I understand sati to perform *the function of restraint* while it is present; this allows for the dhammas which are virtuous to arise, given that conditions are conducive - and this is virtue. I see sati as the dhamma which allows for siila. Sati, in its presence, 'restrains.' Sincerely, Scott. #91674 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:25 am Subject: Re: Survey Quote. .. A Question .. visitorfromt... Dear Nina, - I read the first part about "our possessions" and have just one question to ask. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > We are used to enjoying our possessions, but we may begin to realize > that we have no possessions at all, that there is just seeing- > consciousness which arises and sees and then falls away > very rapidly. > Where are our possessions at the moments seeing-consciousness does > not arise? Our possessions are only that which seeing-consciousness > sees when it arises just for a short moment, and therefore, is it > right to take what is seen for our possessions? What appears > just for > an extremely short moment cannot become one's property, it cannot be > owned; it can only appear through the eyes when it is impinging on > the eyesense. ................ I think you possibly truly believe in such analysis of possessions and may have become convinced that they are nothing but "which seeing- consciousness sees" and that they "cannot be owned". Question: After having become so convinced, what are you going to do with them next: give them away, or just ignore them and never touch them again? Tep === #91675 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries TGrand458@... In a message dated 10/19/2008 10:20:59 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: T: "We know that restraint(samvara) is one kind of siila -- i.e. 'virtue as restraint' as presented in my first post on virtue. But the above sutta states that sati restrains (checks) nivaarana (hindrances)(hindrances). Does it mean that sati functions as also function as sati to stop or check the flow of kilesas? Can pa~n~naa also restrain the tide of kilesas to a certain extent as well?" ............................................. Hi Folks My understanding -- Mindfulness restrains the 'conceptual propagation' and the "fictional narrative" that are driven on by ignorance and delusion. These are more subtle factors of delusion, then say, those based on -- performing unsavory actions. Being that mindfulness restrains even the more subtle factors, it would also restrain any of the grosser factors at the same time. While mindfulness restrains these delusional factors, it is insight that can destroy them. This makes insight the highest virtue. TG #91676 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote. .. A Question .. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina) - Question: After having become so convinced, what are you going to do with them next: give them away, or just ignore them and never touch them again? Tep ================================== I think that Nina is correct in what she says here, but that the idea of this is different from the actuality. I think that genuine practice that enables true seeing is what the Dhamma is about, and that the idea that Nina expresses, while a good pointer, is only that, and not an adequate substitute for the reality. With metta, Howard #91677 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote. .. A Question .. visitorfromt... Hi Howard (Nina), - How can a person be right in Dhamma analysis and yet be wrong in actuality? > Tep (to Nina): > I think you possibly truly believe in such analysis of possessions > and may have become convinced that they are nothing but > "which seeing-consciousness sees" and that they "cannot be owned". >Question: After having become so convinced, what are you going to do with them next: give them away, or just ignore them and never touch them again? Tep ================================== --- upasaka@... wrote: I think that Nina is correct in what she says here, but that the idea of this is different from the actuality. I think that genuine practice that enables true seeing is what the Dhamma is about, and that the idea that Nina expresses, while a good pointer, is only that, and not an adequate substitute for the reality. =================================== The point that "genuine practice that enables true seeing is what the Dhamma is about" is good. The contemplation of possessions as "cannot be owned", and yet in reality one still owns them, is a contradiction: a delusion. Tep === #91678 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear TG, Regarding: T: "My understanding -- Mindfulness restrains the 'conceptual propagation' and the 'fictional narrative' that are driven on by ignorance and delusion. These are more subtle factors of delusion, then say, those based on -- performing unsavory actions. Being that mindfulness restrains even the more subtle factors, it would also restrain any of the grosser factors at the same time." Scott: Within the insubstanitialist view, what is 'mindfulness' and how can it perform a function of restraint? Do you mean to say that it is 'conceptual propagation' which restrains 'fictional narrative'? Sincerely, Scott. #91679 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote. .. A Question .. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Nina) - In a message dated 10/19/2008 1:56:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: Hi Howard (Nina), - How can a person be right in Dhamma analysis and yet be wrong in actuality? --------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not saying that she is wrong. I think she is correct. My point is that what Nina is expressing is an idea based on reading and opinion, and not on direct knowing. The intellectual representation of anything that lacks a basis is knowing is useful, but is not liberating, for the reality is never as conceived. --------------------------------------- > Tep (to Nina): > I think you possibly truly believe in such analysis of possessions > and may have become convinced that they are nothing but > "which seeing-consciousness sees" and that they "cannot be owned". >Question: After having become so convinced, what are you going to do with them next: give them away, or just ignore them and never touch them again? Tep ================================== --- upasaka@... wrote: I think that Nina is correct in what she says here, but that the idea of this is different from the actuality. I think that genuine practice that enables true seeing is what the Dhamma is about, and that the idea that Nina expresses, while a good pointer, is only that, and not an adequate substitute for the reality. =================================== The point that "genuine practice that enables true seeing is what the Dhamma is about" is good. The contemplation of possessions as "cannot be owned", and yet in reality one still owns them, is a contradiction: a delusion. -------------------------------------------- Howard: It is a convention to say that one owns them. In reality, there is no separate owner or separate thing owned, for everything is constantly becoming other, and at any time is inseparable from all else. And even conventionally, it is better to say that one has temporary stewardship over things rather than ownership. ------------------------------------------- Tep ============================ With metta, Howard #91680 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:06 am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote. .. A Question .. upasaka_howard In a message dated 10/19/2008 2:05:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: The intellectual representation of anything that lacks a basis is knowing is useful, but is not liberating, for the reality is never as conceived. ========================== "basis is knowing" should have been "basis in knowing." With metta, Howard #91681 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" nilovg Dear Tep and Howard, again about listening. I see it not as a mere intellectual matter. We can see that what we learn is to be investigated immediately with what appears now. In this way there can be a beginning of awareness and direct understanding. It is best not to think of sati, this can easily be wishful thinking. Let us just have in mind: more understanding of what appears now. Some remarks on the suttas quoted below. Op 19-okt-2008, om 15:39 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > The following suttas list the conditions for originating genuine, > face-to-face knowing or "alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness > of skillful mental qualities " while listening to the true Dhamma. > > "When the Doctrine & Discipline declared by the Tathagata is being > taught, he listens well, gives ear, applies his mind to gnosis, > rejects what is worthless, grabs hold of what is worthwhile, and is > endowed with the patience to conform with the teaching. > [AN 6.88 Sussusa Sutta] -------- N: Yes, patience to consider and investigate over and over again. Gnosis. this is right understanding. That is essential. --------- > "He is not endowed with a [present] kamma obstruction, a defilement > obstruction, or a result-of-[past]-kamma obstruction; he has > conviction, has the desire [to listen], and is discerning. > [AN 6.86 Avaranata Sutta] > "He has not killed his mother; he has not killed his father; he has > not killed an arahant; he has not, with corrupt intent, caused the > blood of a Tathagata to flow; he has not caused a split in the > Sangha; and he is a discerning person, not slow or dull-witted. > [AN 6.87 Kammavaranata Sutta] > ................ N: What is quoted here relates to obstructions, to jhaana and to enlightenment. This is explained also in the Visuddhimagga. Nina. #91682 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote. .. A Question .. nilovg Dear Tep and Howard, Op 19-okt-2008, om 19:56 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > The point that "genuine practice that enables true seeing is what the > Dhamma is about" is good. > > The contemplation of possessions as "cannot be owned", and yet in > reality one still owns them, is a contradiction: a delusion. ------- N: I see your point. At the moment of seeing, what is the object of citta? Colour. Not a thing we could own. Afterwards we think of things we have, with clinging. It is different for a monk, he lives like an arahat, does not own anything. Laypeople who are not anagamis cling to possessions. But at times it is good to realize that what is seen is colour, it is not owned. And actually, all dhammas have no owner, seeing has no owner, hearing has no owner. Nina. #91683 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries TGrand458@... In a message dated 10/19/2008 12:03:56 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: T: "My understanding -- Mindfulness restrains the 'conceptual propagation' and the 'fictional narrative' that are driven on by ignorance and delusion. These are more subtle factors of delusion, then say, those based on -- performing unsavory actions. Being that mindfulness restrains even the more subtle factors, it would also restrain any of the grosser factors at the same time." Scott: Within the insubstanitialist view, what is 'mindfulness' and how can it perform a function of restraint? Do you mean to say that it is 'conceptual propagation' which restrains 'fictional narrative'? Sincerely, Scott. ..................................................................... Hi Scott Your insinuation that a "insubstantialist view" is separate from the Buddha's teaching is odd...since that's what he called it in the Suttas. “…whatever kind of form...whatever kind of feeling…whatever kind of perception…whatever kind of volitional formations…whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: a bhikkhu (Buddhist monk) inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in form… feeling…perception…volitional formations…consciousness?â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 952 -- 953) Your latter speculation seems completely unfounded by my statement. My statement says the opposite and clearly IMO. I can't get into a discussion with you about what "mindfulness" means. I figure those in this group have a good enough understanding of that term to be able to use it without an in-depth explanation. Otherwise this group would be a never ending regression of defining even basic terms. It is outlined in the Satipatthana Sutta, and many others, but I suspect you already know that. It seems to me you made much less of an effort to try to understand what I meant, than to position yourself to try to argue with it. I pass. TG #91684 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Tep) - In a message dated 10/19/2008 2:15:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, writes: Dear Tep and Howard, again about listening. I see it not as a mere intellectual matter. We can see that what we learn is to be investigated immediately with what appears now. ============================= I do follow you, Nina, but I would like to point out that often when we come to watching with the expectation of seeing a certain thing, we see what we expect to see rather than what is there. An astonishing example of this can be seen in a video that was sent to me as an attachment. I will attach that video to this post. It will be removed by Yahoo on the post that goes to the list, but I hope you will be able to download it from the copy I send to you. (If anyone else wants a copy, please email me, and I'll send it to you as well.) With metta, Howard #91685 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear TG, Regarding: TG: "Your insinuation that an 'insubstantialist view' is separate from the Buddha's teaching is odd...since that's what he called it in the Suttas." Scott: To make a fine point of it, saying that the view you espouse is identical to that of the Buddha is to rather over-estimate the importance of the view. TG: "...(The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 952-953)" Scott: Yes, TG. This is the oft-repeated justification for the view, and rests on a misunderstanding. The view is like a one-note symphony. TG: "I can't get into a discussion with you about what 'mindfulness' means..." Scott: No, you can't. By seeing something called 'conditionality' as the only aspect of Dhamma, a consideration of dhammas, which are non-existent in the view, is not possible. I'd think that in putting forth a view (again), you'd be willing to discuss it (again). You can't possibly expect agreement, can you? No worries, though, I do think the view is inadequate and limited - and we've been around this block before, haven't we? Sincerely, Scott. #91686 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" nilovg Hi Howard, thank you. Since it is late (for me) I look at it tomorrow. Seeing what we expect to see, this shows that what we take for seeing is defining and thinking already, not seeing. In this regard: often with spelling mistakes we try to correct, we do not see the wrong spelling, since we think immediately of the word in the right spelling. For instance, you send immediately a post with a correction, but I had not even noticed the mistake. In future, do not correct so much :-)) Nina. Op 19-okt-2008, om 20:56 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I do follow you, Nina, but I would like to point out that often > when we > come to watching with the expectation of seeing a certain thing, we > see what > we expect to see rathe #91687 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/19/2008 3:06:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, thank you. Since it is late (for me) I look at it tomorrow. Seeing what we expect to see, this shows that what we take for seeing is defining and thinking already, not seeing. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, you are correct. It is not literally seeing, per se, that is affected, but perception (sa~n~na). -------------------------------------------- In this regard: often with spelling mistakes we try to correct, we do not see the wrong spelling, since we think immediately of the word in the right spelling. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly so! We see what is there, but we do not "see" what is there - i.e., we do not perceive it correctly. ------------------------------------------- For instance, you send immediately a post with a correction, but I had not even noticed the mistake. In future, do not correct so much :-)) ---------------------------------------- Howard: :-) I probably still will, though! LOL! ----------------------------------------- Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard #91688 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 10/19/2008 1:03:57 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Regarding: TG: "Your insinuation that an 'insubstantialist view' is separate from the Buddha's teaching is odd...since that's what he called it in the Suttas." Scott: To make a fine point of it, saying that the view you espouse is identical to that of the Buddha is to rather over-estimate the importance of the view. TG: "...(The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 952-953)" Scott: Yes, TG. This is the oft-repeated justification for the view, and rests on a misunderstanding. The view is like a one-note symphony. ......................................................... TG I guess better a "one note symphony" is better than a "no note symphony" as in...the 'ultimate reality' no note. Interesting how you so easily shrug off a Sutta quote. A Sutta devoted to the theme of insubstantiality...and that mentions it repeatedly and directly. .................................................... TG: "I can't get into a discussion with you about what 'mindfulness' means..." Scott: No, you can't. By seeing something called 'conditionality' as the only aspect of Dhamma, a consideration of dhammas, which are non-existent in the view, is not possible. .............................................................. TG: I don't see a "something" called conditionality. I see a process of conditionality: -- This being, that is; with the arising of this, that arises, etc. I see it, and the Suttas see it, as crucial. “One who sees dependent origination sees the Dhamma;* one who sees the Dhamma sees dependent origination.â€? (Attributed to the Buddha by Venerable Sariputta -- [The Buddha’s chief disciple in terms of insight] . . . Middle Length Discourses of the Budhha, pg. 283, The Simile of the Elephants Footprint (Greater), Mahahatthipadopama Sutta, #28.) Notice, it doesn't say -- "One who sees "ultimate realities" sees the Dhamma; one who sees the Dhamma sees ultimate realities" And nowhere is that to be found in the Suttas. .............................................................................. ........ I'd think that in putting forth a view (again), you'd be willing to discuss it (again). You can't possibly expect agreement, can you? .............................................................................. .. TG: Can I expect agreement that mindfulness thwarts conceptual propagation and delusion? I would certainly hope so. I would be surprised to find anyone else in this group who couldn't agree with that. You must be the only one. .......................................................................... No worries, though, I do think the view is inadequate and limited - and we've been around this block before, haven't we? .............................................................................. .. TG: Yep, same old Scott. I don't think your "Dhammas" have changed a bit. I may have to re-evaluate impermanence. Let's see. My post that you responded to had NOTHING to do with the topics of conditionality or insubstantiality. Yet you went out of your way to pick an argument on those topics in the guise of responding to my post. LOL Yep, same old Scott. TG OUT #91689 From: "colette" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:08 pm Subject: Is there a "ground of being?" wsa [dsg] Re: the five khandhas, was Quote Survey. ksheri3 Hi Phil, Yes, tommorrow, Monday, if I can get to the library and use their compter I'd like to try to relate parts of the first Near-Death- Experience I had yet I'm still uneasy about relinguishing some of the information. People have always been specifically after the exact information of what I went through and I've always been quite aware that they have ulterior motivation for using that info. For Instance: <....> You speak of a "light". I experienced NO SUCH THING! I went from arriving home one night, I recall pulling the caddy in the garage at 1566 Buena Vista Dr., and then waking up in the hospital several weeks later. In that time I remained "conscious", for lack of better terms. If I am to bring this information and opinion forward it will contradict the food chain, the money supply line, that the christian church has spent so much time developing and maintaining. I am considered an outsider to the people of this country because I have a different opinion of what actually is and is not; I have an opinion of what lies are intentionally manifested in the church for the single purpose of financial profit for the church. I never a saw light. I remained conscious although the specifics of that consciousness changed which showed me a seperate reality, for lack of better terms and because I think that Carlos Castenda's book of that name is a splendid way of viewing the EXPERIENCE. We can get into this during the week if I can get to a computer. toodles, colette #91690 From: "colette" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:35 pm Subject: Re: Is there a "ground of being?" Alex: YES THERE IS ! ksheri3 Hi Alex, I like your take on the concept of a "common ground" or common denominator. I want to expand on what Phil and I are begining to discuss and apply your theories in it as well. Craving sounds, from your point of view, exactly a gestation period where an embrio is developing to become the seed (bija) which will then torment the mind that the seed (bija) is implanted in. Your application of a VERY OBSCURE TERM THAT I CONTINUALLY ATTEMPT TO RESEARCH, "THUSNESS", is extremely interesting. I'll reserve my thoughts on this for a later date. toodles, colette #91691 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:01 pm Subject: Re: Mirages: was Concept Permanent and unconditioned? kenhowardau Hi Azita, Thanks for chiming in. I hope you won't regret it because I have a question for you. (BTW, I note you have limited internet time, so don't worry too much about answering. Just writing the question is helpful in itself.) ---------------- A: > > Baaloo - the foolish person. > if a fool knows he is a fool that awareness can make him wise. the > basis of true wisdom is the right knowledge of things as they really > are ......and now i've run outa internet time ---------------- Now for my question: Who or what is the fool that knows its own foolishness? Before my trip to Thailand I would have said it was mundane panna of the kind that knew ignorance as ignorance. Or it could even have been mundane non-path panna - the kind that simply knows akusala as akusala. There is nothing controversial about that answer (at least, not at DSG). But I would have thought we were talking about just *one* instance of panna. After all, there is only the present moment, and so, if there is going to be "a fool knowing foolishness" in an ultimately real sense, it would have to be in just *one* moment. During my Thailand trip, however, I learned that dana required an 'act of dana' (taking place over many moments) Dana was not, as I would previously have thought, the function of a single citta. So, does the same principle apply to bhavana? Does there need to be an act of bhavana - taking place over many moments? (In this case, does there need to be an act of a fool knowing foolishness?) This point is a difficult for me, but I am keen to understand it. I want to see things exactly the way you people at the Foundation see them. :-) Ken H PS: Apologies to Sarah and Sukin and others who have already tried to explain this to me: it obviously hasn't sunk in! #91692 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" kenhowardau Hi Phil, At DSG we learn that only dhammas have sabhava. Conventional things do not. And so the conventional activity of (for example) helping a blind person to cross the street actually consists of countless cittas, some of which will be wholesome, some unwholesome and others purely functional. Similarly, no "person" is entirely good or evil. Ultimately, only fleeting dhammas have those characteristics. From my limited experience of talking informally with like-minded Dhamma students, this knowledge is never far from our collective minds. And so, if we do make the mistake of laughing or gossiping behind someone's back, it is never taken too far. We know that that person has good cittas and bad cittas and his/her good cittas are infinitely better than our [or anyone else's] bad cittas. :-) Ken H #91693 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:35 pm Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries visitorfromt... Hello TG (Scott), - I have an inquiry for you concerning your invented terminology. TG (older message): My understanding -- Mindfulness restrains the 'conceptual propagation' and the 'fictional narrative' that are driven on by ignorance and delusion. These are more subtle factors of delusion, then say, those based on -- performing unsavory actions. Being that mindfulness restrains even the more subtle factors, it would also restrain any of the grosser factors at the same time. Scott: Within the insubstanitialist view, what is 'mindfulness' and how can it perform a function of restraint? Do you mean to say that it is 'conceptual propagation' which restrains 'fictional narrative'? ................................ TG to Scott (#91688): Can I expect agreement that mindfulness thwarts conceptual propagation and delusion? I would certainly hope so. I would be surprised to find anyone else in this group who couldn't agree with that. You must be the only one. T: Please have a little mercy for other people like me whose language skill is minimal. What are the Buddha's words for "conceptual propagation" , "fictional narrative", and "unsavory actions"? More important, how does mindfulness restrain "conceptual propagation" and "fictional narrative" ? I think Scott might be confused too. Vft #91694 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries TGrand458@... In a message dated 10/19/2008 6:35:28 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: T: Please have a little mercy for other people like me whose language skill is minimal. What are the Buddha's words for "conceptual propagation" , "fictional narrative", and "unsavory actions"? More important, how does mindfulness restrain "conceptual propagation" and "fictional narrative" ? I think Scott might be confused too. Vft .......................................... TG: Is Vft Tep? Basically, if you can't grab the gist of my these English words and what is meant by them in the context I presented them in, then you'll have to remain confused. I'm not going to translate and explain every single word. I'm going to require a minimal amount of "creative leap" and insight from the reader, or its way to tedious for me. Would you understand what "unattached" means or to "turn away from conditions," or would you require the Pali to have a clue? Just curious. If the answer is "no" on the latter, then you'll probably prefer not to read my posts. TG #91695 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:22 pm Subject: Re: Survey Quote. .. A Question .. visitorfromt... Dear Nina, - Please allow me to back up the conversation one more time only. > The contemplation of possessions as "cannot be owned", and yet in > reality one still owns them, is a contradiction: a delusion. ------- Nina van Gorkom wrote: I see your point. At the moment of seeing, what is the object of citta? Colour. Not a thing we could own. T: Realizing that, should we then let go of whatever that "cannot be owned"? ............................ N: Laypeople who are not anagamis cling to possessions. But at times it is good to realize that what is seen is colour, it is not owned. T: I am hearing the same old mantra again ! Continue to cling and continue to "let it be" ? Tep === #91696 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:51 pm Subject: Is there a "ground of being?" wsa [dsg] Re: the five khandhas, was Quote Survey. philofillet Hi Colette > > Yes, tommorrow, Monday, if I can get to the library and use their > compter I'd like to try to relate parts of the first Near-Death- > Experience I had yet I'm still uneasy about relinguishing some of the > information. Ph: Not to worry, Colette, really. Don't go anywhere with this that is uneasy for you. Drop it, please. :) > > People have always been specifically after the exact information of > what I went through and I've always been quite aware that they have > ulterior motivation for using that info. > > For Instance: > > <....> You speak of a "light". I experienced NO SUCH THING! Ph: No further questioning. As you say, I do indeed have ulterior motives for asking, and it strictly about the light. I cling to that notion. Let's leave it there. But thank you for having provided further hints about separate realities. I think working through that experience is for you and you alone...too intensely personal! metta, phil p.s if you do post and I don't respond, my apologies, I might not see it as I will be away from here until Saturday and won't have time to look back through the posts. Thanks! #91697 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear TG, TG: "I don't see a 'something' called conditionality. I see a process of conditionality: -- This being, that is; with the arising of this, that arises, etc...I see it, and the Suttas see it, as crucial...Can I expect agreement that mindfulness thwarts conceptual propagation and delusion? I would certainly hope so." Scott: My question was: What do you consider 'mindfulness' to be? I think it a reasonable question, TG, given the focus of the view presented. 'Mindfulness,' from the traditional standpoint, is sati cetasika, with its characteristic and function. How, within 'a process of conditionality,' where the view denies the presence of dhammas with sabhaava, is 'mindfulness' considered? If you don't wish to discuss, I don't mind. If you do, there is no need for ad hominem arguments, TG. I am discussing a view with you. Sincerely, Scott. #91698 From: "colette" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:11 pm Subject: Is there a "ground of being?" wsa [dsg] Re: the five khandhas, was Quote Survey. ksheri3 Hi Phil, No problems! I have always been certain that this is a very touchy subject for people and they intensely desire, crave, for continuity therefore they cling to this "notion" this concept of a light. With respect to that notion I have always thought that people that have near death experiences and report back as having almost exactly the same experience, such as seeing this mysterious light, I find that it could probably be a resultant thing of their mind actually wanting to maintain their position in their "group(ing)" or caste, and so they actually rationalize the exact same experience and they convince themselves of it's reality and how organized religion is in complete control of the supposed light. I won't bother with it further since there was a limit to how far I was going to take it since I'm activityly performing research into the equalities I'm finding in the Tibetan Book of the Dead's version of the Bardo states of consciousness. As I've told Alex, the terminology "Thusness" is a very difficult term to google and get good information on. I wouldn't want to jeopardize my research into what I may find as an equilibrium from past doctrine of different lineages by contaminating the field with experience that people would then turn around and make into doctrine to fit my definitive experiences. Thanx for the initial thought though. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Colette > > > > Yes, tommorrow, Monday, if I can get to the library and use their > > compter I'd like to try to relate parts of the first Near-Death- > > Experience I had yet I'm still uneasy about relinguishing some of > the > > information. > > Ph: Not to worry, Colette, really. Don't go anywhere with this > that is uneasy for you. Drop it, please. :) <...> #91699 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 10/19/2008 9:25:01 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, TG: "I don't see a 'something' called conditionality. I see a process of conditionality: -- This being, that is; with the arising of this, that arises, etc...I see it, and the Suttas see it, as crucial...Can I expect agreement that mindfulness thwarts conceptual propagation and delusion? I would certainly hope so." Scott: My question was: What do you consider 'mindfulness' to be? ................................................................. NEW TG: You previously said this -- Scott: "No, you can't. By seeing something called 'conditionality' as the only aspect of Dhamma, a consideration of dhammas, which are non-existent in the view, is not possible." Hence, my response above which was on point to your "discussion." .......................................................................... I think it a reasonable question, TG, given the focus of the view presented. 'Mindfulness,presented. 'Mindfulness,' from the tradit cetasika, with its characteristic and function. ........................................................................... NEW TG: Mindfulness has many facets to its meaning as seen in the Suttas. Many are demonstrated in the Satipatthana Sutta. Mindfulness of things said and done long ago is also mindfulness. Predominantly, mindfulness is direct awareness of experiences in the sense of 'monitoring' experiential events. Being mindful of the conditional relationship of events is also part of that. But it is more than that as well ... as per above. Take care though, some of the Buddha's teachings on mindfulness employ the dreaded concepts as part of the mindfulness process. I've pointed them out in the past ad nauseam. .............................................................................. ..... How, within 'a process of conditionality,How, within 'a process of condi presence of dhammas with sabhaava, is 'mindfulness' considered? .............................................................................. .. NEW TG: I suspect you are probably aware that the only reference of sabhaava in the Suttas is in the Patisambhidamagga where it is repeatedly denied. Is there another? Since the commentaries apparently trump the Suttas for you, I guess this is yet another Sutta you can blow off. Experiences can be analyzed by means of the elements and aggregates the Buddha outlined. Oh yea, the Buddha also called them -- empty, void, hollow, insubstantial, like a mirage, like a conjurer's trick, etc. Oh nuts I forgot...Suttas don't matter. The elements and aggregates are means of analysis, and not ultimate realities. There is a Sutta, where when questioned about this very point, the Buddha told the questioner that -- feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness were in actuality NOT separate things, but that he separates them for means of analysis. I don't have the reference off the top of my head. But you seem to think its those commentaries that push the theory of "ultimate realities with their own characteristics"; terminology not found in the Suttas, that we need to take to heart in. What's the point of a rigorous analysis of Pali, if you are just going to ignore that the Suttas don't even discuss the teaching you focus on? Its just a substantialist oriented interpretation and a pretty liberal (shall I say wild?) one at that. Anyway, if that vision of Dhamma is effective for you, super. It isn't for me, and I have solace that it doesn't appear in the Suttas. .............................................................................. .... If you don't wish to discuss, I don't mind. If you do, there is no need for ad hominem arguments, TG. I am discussing a view with you. ................................................ NEW TG: Right back at you. TG OUT #91700 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,307 .. Comment, please .. lbidd2 Hi Tep, Tep: "As a reader of this series I like to see a comment or two from you, the presenters, if you don't mind." Larry: The teaching is the teaching, but some times we need to hear it one way and some times we need to hear it another way. Over to Connie --> Larry #91701 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:12 pm Subject: Fruits of the Noble Way! bhikkhu0 Friends: How does the Noble 8-fold Way makes one Noble? Having cultivated the Noble 8-fold Way, a being might enter the stream, which leads to NibbÄ?na! The Stream-Enterer (SotÄ?panna) is entirely freed from rebirth as Animal, Hungry Ghost, Angry Demon & Burning Hell Being! Such Noble One (Ariya) will be enlightened within maximally 7 rebirths... The Stream-Enterer has eliminated all egoism, belief in a 'person' or 'self', eradicated all 'I-making' & 'Mine-making', abolished all sceptical doubt in the perfect Self-Enlightenment of the Buddha, & removed silly superstitious belief in any benefit of empowerments and empty rituals. Such Noble have by direct momentary experience touched and tasted the deathless NibbÄ?na and is forever hereafter independent of any Dhamma-teacher... Having cultured the Noble 8-fold Way even further, a being might attain the state of a Once-Returner (SakadÄ?gÄ?mi), who is reborn only once as human or lower god (deva) and then awakens in that next life! Such Noble has further reduced sense-desire and aversion... Having yet further refined the Noble 8-fold Way, a being might attain the state of a Non-Returner (AnÄ?gÄ?mi), who is reborn in the higher fine material worlds - The Pure Abodes - where they live for many universal cycles & there attain NibbÄ?na without ever returning to the human or lower divine worlds... Such Noble has furthermore entirely eliminated sense-desire and aversion! Having fully perfected the Noble 8-fold Way one awakens as an Arahat, who is enlightened in this very life, by elimination of all remaining mental defects such as desire for fine form and formlessness, the subtle conceit that 'I am', latent tendency to restlessness and all ignorance. Such Noble One enters at the moment of death the freedom, bliss & peace of NibbÄ?na without trace of clinging left... .... Have a nice Noble day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ... #91702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,307 .. Comment, please .. nilovg Dear Tep, Op 19-okt-2008, om 18:05 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > My comment is : I do not understand why the Wheel of Becoming is > profound just because "it is taught for various reasons and in > various ways". Isn't it profound simply because of its significance > and its implications? ------- N: The Vis. views it according to the four Discriminations, Patisambhidas, and this one is the third: according to nirutti, the language expressing the teaching. The way the Buddha enunciates the Dependent Origination in language is deep. I shall post the text with the Tiika explanations in a few days, and if you do not mind reading it, it may help. < As to the words, ‘for various reasons’ (tena tena kaara.nena), the Tiika explains: in a way conditoned by the excellence of his awakening, for those who can be guided (to enlightenment). N: Only the Buddha, because of his omniscience could teach in such deep way. He was always intent on the welfare of those who could be guided to develop understanding leading to enlightenment.> This also indicates why it is profound. ----------- Nina. #91703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:52 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 4, no 1 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 4. Subtle Clinging When we were staying in Anurådhapura, some of our friends arranged an outing to Wilpattu National Park. We enjoyed ourselves looking at the wild peacocks and herons and we watched the deer who were peacefully grazing along the lakeside. At such moments it is obvious that attachment arises after seeing. Lobha can arise with pleasant feeling as well as with indifferent feeling and when it arises with pleasant feeling we can recognize it more easily. In Wilpattu there were many moments of lobha with pleasant feeling. Is there clinging at this moment, perhaps with indifferent feeling? Is there seeing now? Seeing itself is neither kusala nor akusala, it is vipåkacitta, the result of kamma. Shortly after seeing has fallen away, kusala citta or akusala cittas arise. After seeing, hearing and the experiences through the other senses there is usually clinging, because from birth to death we cling to all objects that can be experienced through the senses. We learn through the Abhidhamma that seeing arises in a process or series of cittas which all experience the same object, that is, visible object. A process of cittas experiencing an object through a sense-door is followed by a process of cittas experiencing that object through the mind-door. Visible object is experienced through the eye-door and after the eye-door process has been completed that object is experienced through the mind-door. After that there can be other mind-door processes of cittas which think of a concept of shape and form, of a whole, of a thing or a person. Seeing experiences what is visible, and it experiences it through the eyesense. Seeing does not pay attention to shape and form. The cittas which pay attention to shape and form arise later on. When we know that something is a house or when we recognize a person there is thinking of concepts conditioned by remembrance of former experiences, and this is different from seeing. Seeing does not pay attention to beauty of ugliness, at the moment of seeing there is no like or dislike. Shortly after seeing has fallen away, kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise in that same eye-door process. Thus, even before we know what it is that was seen, kusala citta or akusala citta arise on account of the object; these types arise because of their own conditions. There is not one moment of them but seven moments and they are called “javana-cittas”, which can be translated as the cittas that “run through” the object. When a sense-door process has been completed it is followed by a mind-door process with seven javana-cittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. If there are other mind-door processes of cittas which think of concepts, there are also in these processes kusala cittas or akusala cittas. The cittas which think of concepts are akusala cittas if their objective is not dåna, síla or bhåvanå, mental development. We cannot think of concepts with cittas which are neither kusala nor akusala. _______ Nina. #91704 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:55 pm Subject: Re: Mirages: was Concept Permanent and unconditioned? gazita2002 Hello KenH, I think it can be taken at 2 levels - is the eel wriggling?? :-) Firstly, there must be some degree of panna to know that we are fools simply because we arent arahants. So on the pariyatti level maybe just the knowing of this fact can be a condition for more development of wisdom, but I can hear -" it all depends on ones accumulations and conditions" - which I dont dispute of course. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Azita, > > Thanks for chiming in. I hope you won't regret it because I have a > question for you. > > (BTW, I note you have limited internet time, so don't worry too much > about answering. Just writing the question is helpful in itself.) > > ---------------- > A: > > Baaloo - the foolish person. > > if a fool knows he is a fool that awareness can make him wise. > the > > basis of true wisdom is the right knowledge of things as they > really > > are ......and now i've run outa internet time > ---------------- > > Now for my question: Who or what is the fool that knows its own > foolishness? > > Before my trip to Thailand I would have said it was mundane panna of > the kind that knew ignorance as ignorance. Or it could even have been > mundane non-path panna - the kind that simply knows akusala as > akusala. > > There is nothing controversial about that answer (at least, not at > DSG). But I would have thought we were talking about just *one* > instance of panna. After all, there is only the present moment, and > so, if there is going to be "a fool knowing foolishness" in an > ultimately real sense, it would have to be in just *one* moment. Azita: and what you have said here is I think, patipatti level, just the one moment of right understanding that knows moha??? However, I dont think it matters IMHO if it is one moment or more than one because cittas arise and fall soooo quickly, whos counting, like? I dont think you are incorrect when you say this but the emphasis doesnt have to be on one citta - Ken, I write this tentatively bec I often get the snake by the tail and it whips round and bites me. I think when there is much higher levels of wisdom then 'we'll' know which citta it is - I think - or maybe thats only Buddhas' knowledge. > During my Thailand trip, however, I learned that dana required > an 'act of dana' (taking place over many moments) Dana was not, as I > would previously have thought, the function of a single citta. So, > does the same principle apply to bhavana? Does there need to be an > act of bhavana - taking place over many moments? (In this case, does > there need to be an act of a fool knowing foolishness?) > > This point is a difficult for me, but I am keen to understand it. I > want to see things exactly the way you people at the Foundation see > them. :-) Azita: as I said, I often get it wrong so will leave it at this point. Hope all is well down your way, I have been in thailand more than home this year. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita > Ken H > > PS: Apologies to Sarah and Sukin and others who have already tried to > explain this to me: it obviously hasn't sunk in! > #91705 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:56 pm Subject: Survey Quote nilovg Dear friends, While we are seeing now there is vipåkacitta which experiences an object through the eyes. Sati can be aware of the characteristics of realities: of nåma, the reality which experiences an object, and of rúpa, that which appears. Sati can only be aware of these characteristics, and more than that cannot be known. It cannot be known which kamma of which past life has conditioned as its result the seeing arising at this moment. It is impossible to find this out. When there is seeing, sati can be mindful and pa~n~naa can clearly know the difference between seeing which is vipåka and akusala citta with like or dislike or kusala citta which can arise after seeing.... Kåmåvacara citta which is attached to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object clings firmly to them, even though they appear just for a moment. Visible object appears for an extremely short moment, when it impinges on the eyesense. Sound appears just for an extremely short moment, when it impinges on the earsense. It is the same with odour, flavour and tangible object. All of them are insignificant dhammas (paritta dhammas), they appear just for a moment and then they fall away. Nevertheless, citta is attached and clings all the time to these insignificant dhammas. Since these dhammas which arise and fall away are succeeding one another it seems that they can last, that they do not fall away. ---------- Nina. #91706 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: cittas gazita2002 Hello Nina, Yes, I got it wrong. I was thinking that ONLY santiirana citta performs the function of patisandhi. In my usual fashion, I misunderstood and didnt check up first. WoW! does this particular nasty little habit get me into some hot water!!! 'the function of patisandhi citta can be perfoormed by different types of vipaka cittas produced by different kammas.' from yr book abhidhamma in daily life. patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Azita, > Op 14-okt-2008, om 7:25 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > > > N: When santiirana performs the function of patisandhi citta in a > > > human plane, it is the result of a weak kusala kamma, it is not > > > sobhana, but ahetuka. Thus, no sati is accompanying this citta. One > > > is handicapped from birth. > > > > AZita: this doesnt sound quite right to me Nina; i'm wondering if it > > should read : when santiirana ......... human plane as a result of a > > weak kusala kamma etc.....? > > Because birth in human realm can have patisandhi citta with 3 roots - > > as surely was the case for the Buddha in his last existence. > ------- > N: I see no problem here. Perhaps I did not understand your question. > Santiirana citta is always asobhana, no sobhana roots, and it can > perform the function of rebirth which is the result of weak kusala > kamma. > See Survey, p. 216: > but there are different degrees of kamma producing kusala vipåka. > Those who are handicapped from the first moment of life have a > rebirth-consciousness which is the result of a very weak kusala > kamma, unaccompanied by the sobhana cetasikas of alobha, adosa and > paññå. .......... #91707 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,307 .. Comment, please .. visitorfromt... Dear Nina (Larry, Connie), - I enjoy this excellent reply. Thank you very much. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > Op 19-okt-2008, om 18:05 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > > > My comment is : I do not understand why the Wheel of Becoming is > > profound just because "it is taught for various reasons and in > > various ways". Isn't it profound simply because of its significance and its implications? > ------- > N: The Vis. views it according to the four Discriminations, > Patisambhidas, and this one is the third: according to nirutti, the language expressing the teaching. The way the Buddha enunciates the Dependent Origination in language is deep. > I shall post the text with the Tiika explanations in a few days, and if you do not mind reading it, it may help. < As to the words, `for various reasons' (tena tena kaara.nena), the Tiika explains: in a way conditoned by the excellence of his awakening, for those who can be guided (to enlightenment). > N: Only the Buddha, because of his omniscience could teach in such > deep way. He was always intent on the welfare of those who could be guided to develop understanding leading to enlightenment.> > This also indicates why it is profound. > ----------- > Nina. > ============= Now it is clear about the profundity, even without more Tiika ! Tep === #91708 From: "alberto.spera" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thoughts on pannati alberto.spera --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alberto, > > A small modification: > > --- On Sun, 19/10/08, sarah abbott wrote: > > A:>Dear Sarah, thanks for your feedback, I was trying to say that what > arises by default, due to kilesa, is akusala-dhamma (citta composed > with miccha-sati) , which can be aware only of thoughts/pannati. > .... > >S: Yes! > > New S: Generally so. Of course there can be kilesa arising with a paramattha dhamma as object, such as attachment during the javana process when visible object or sound is experienced. Generally speaking, however, most kilesa arises in mind door processes when thoughts/pannati are experienced. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > Dear Sarah Yes, and I also appreciate that there are people, not necessarily buddhists, who do have a fair amount of genuine kusala qualities apart from panna (alobha/generosity/unselfishness, adosa /metta/friendliness, karuna /tolerance for others' akusala, mudita /appreciation of others' kusala, samma vaca/kind speech, samma kammanta/unharmfullness, and samma ajiva/right livelihood) Alberto #91709 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: NEW TG: "Mindfulness has many facets to its meaning as seen in the Suttas. Many are demonstrated in the Satipatthana Sutta. Mindfulness of things said and done long ago is also mindfulness. Predominantly, mindfulness is direct awareness of experiences in the sense of 'monitoring' experiential events. Being mindful of the conditional relationship of events is also part of that. But it is more than that as well..." Scott: If mindfulness relates to 'things said and done long ago,' how is this different from memory? If mindfulness is 'direct awareness of experiences in the sense of monitoring experiential events', then isn't any being with any degree of sentience capable of mindfulness in some fashion all the time it is awake? In other words, what distinguishes this 'mindfulness' defined above from common everyday attention? TG: "...The elements and aggregates are means of analysis, and not ultimate realities. There is a Sutta, where when questioned about this very point, the Buddha told the questioner that -- feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness were in actuality NOT separate things, but that he separates them for means of analysis. I don't have the reference off the top of my head." Scott: This would be good to read, should you recall the citation. Of course, in an ongoing process, things that are described separately, say for didactic purposes, are not actually 'separate' in actuality but are in flux. Sincerely, Scott. #91710 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mirages: was Concept Permanent and unconditioned? upasaka_howard Hi, Azita (and Ken) - In a message dated 10/20/2008 2:55:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: ... there must be some degree of panna to know that we are fools simply because we arent arahants. ========================== There's an old saying I like - I don't recall the source - that is along the following lines: He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool - shun him. He who knows not but knows that he knows not can learn - teach him. He who knows but knows not that he knows is asleep - awaken him. He who knows and knows that he knows is wise - follow him. With metta, Howard P. S. I think the 2nd of these four adages matches up with what you said, Azita. /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #91711 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anupubbasikkhaa sarahprocter... Hi Han & Jon, --- On Sun, 19/10/08, jonoabb wrote: >I've been following this thread, and wondering if the aanupubbasikkhaa (gradual training - adhissila, adhicitta and adhipa~n~naa) and aanupubbikathaa (gradual teaching) should not be considered 2 separate things. >To my understanding, the aanupubbikathaa is the teaching given by the Buddha to persons whom he perceives are ready for enlightenment. As far as I know, the fortunate listener invariably becomes enlightened (sotapanna at least, sometimes higher) on hearing the discourse. >The aanupubbasikkhaa, on the other hand, seems to be a statement of the fact that sila is perfected (i.e., by attainment of stream entry) before samadhi (i.e., by attainment of anagami), and samadhi before panna (i.e., by attainment of arahantship) . >Just a comment to throw into the discussion. .... S: good comments:-))) Just to remind you, the original quote Alex gave was; >"Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this discipline of Dhamma (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training (anupubbasikkhaa ), a gradual performance (anupubbakiriyaa ) , a gradual progression (anupubbapatipadaa ), with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch." Udana, 5.5 ... S: There was no "anupubbikathaa" given! Metta, Sarah ========= #91712 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. sarahprocter... Hi TG (& Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > TG: Dukkha requires a sentient system that feels/experiences. Things are > not MERELY Dukkha on account of their impermanence. It is on account of > impermanence and attachment that there is Dukkha. THIS requires a > "conglomeration" of interacting conditions. .... S: I understand "sabbe sankhara anicca....dukkha" to be referring to all conditioned dhammas to be anicca and dukkha regardless of whether they are experienced or not. Of course, when it comes to the 4 Noble Truths, whilst "in summary, the 5 khandhas are dukkha", if there is no more clinging to them, there are no conditions for further birth. However, even for the rest of the arahant's life, even though no attachment remains, dhammas are still dukkha. Metta, Sarah ======== #91713 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:05 am Subject: Re: Help me to find this sutta... sarahprocter... Hi Atula, (& Alex), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Atula Siriwardane" wrote: > > There is a sutta Buddha explains that when a king is corrupt, the > ministers, officials and finally people become corrupt and the results.. > Can some one name the sutta. .... S: I thought of the details given in the Abhidhamma commentary (as I recall) about the king and his ministers, referring to cittas and cetasikas. Here is a link to one message Htoo wrote on the topic: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38374 If the citta is 'corrupt', so are the cetasikas and so on. I thought I had read about this in the Atthasalini, but couldn't find it on a quick look. Maybe someone else will find the source. Metta, Sarah ======= #91714 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:10 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott sarahprocter... Hi again Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi again <...> > The atta view > is there whether we like it, prominently involved in things or more > subtly lurking, and we have to work our way through it. I think the > lotus growing through the mud of the world is applicable here. We can't > just pluck right view out of thin air, it has to be gradually developed > by better coming to understand our wrong view, the "deluded framework" > of the way we see the world. It sometimes seems to me that some people > want to pluck ariyan right view out of thin air! To have that lotus > bloom emerge unscathed from the swamp of views. We gotta roll around in > there for a good while first :) .... S: I agree with all your comments, but would just like to stress again that it's not the atta view, 'using self', that asists the lotus bloom emerge. The atta view is the swamp! Metta, Sarah ========= #91715 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and TG) - In a message dated 10/20/2008 9:58:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi TG (& Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > TG: Dukkha requires a sentient system that feels/experiences. Things are > not MERELY Dukkha on account of their impermanence. It is on account of > impermanence and attachment that there is Dukkha. THIS requires a > "conglomeration" of interacting conditions. .... S: I understand "sabbe sankhara anicca....dukkha" to be referring to all conditioned dhammas to be anicca and dukkha regardless of whether they are experienced or not. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Sarah, consider for a moment, please, two questions: 1) What would it *mean* for conditioned phenomena to be dukkha if there did not exist namas? (I purposely omit mention of sentient beings at the moment so as to avoid distraction.) 2) Why does the Buddha give tanha as the cause for dukkha? -------------------------------------------------- Of course, when it comes to the 4 Noble Truths, whilst "in summary, the 5 khandhas are dukkha", if there is no more clinging to them, there are no conditions for further birth. However, even for the rest of the arahant's life, even though no attachment remains, dhammas are still dukkha. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: What does that mean to be dukkha? You have agreed that it means unsatisfactory. Unsatisfactory for what purpose? Does not "satisfactory" depend on the purposes and desires of sentient beings (i.e., on certain cetasikas)? The dictionary gives the following: Main Entry: sat·is·fac·to·ry Function: adjective Pronunciation: "sa-t&s-'fak-t(&-)re : giving satisfaction : _ADEQUATE _ (javascript:lookWord('adequate');) - sat·is·fac·to·ri·ly/-t(&-)r&-le/ adverb - sat·is·fac·to·ri·ness noun ------------------------------------------------------ Metta, Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard #91716 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& James), Thanks for your helpful comments and questions - always a difficult topic with regard to the brahma viharas and their object. --- On Sun, 19/10/08, upasaka@... wrote: >H: With regard to the following post of yours, Sarah, I have the following comment and question for you: It is Abhidhamma teaching, I have come to understand, that every citta & cetasika has a unique object. What is the object at a moment of compassion? ... S: A living being/living beings. Yes, a living beings are concepts. .... H:> If you answer "A concept," I have to wonder at someone having compassion for an idea, because, while people think and feel and are distressed, thereby eliciting compassion, an idea does not think and feel and experience distress. .... S: As you know, there are many different kinds of concepts - those based on realities (such as trees and people) and those which aren't (such as purple flying elephants). When we think about people (as we all do and as the Buddha did too), there may or may not be any right understanding of the actual dhammas (realities) experienced, i.e namas and rupas. Regardless, at the moments when the brahma viharas arise, the object is a sentient being, a concept which we have on account of various namas and rupas. Just because a concept is the object doesn't mean the citta cannot be very, very wholesome. In the development of samatha, up to the jhanas, almost all the objects are concepts. This was all so for the Buddha as well, but he understood (and taught his followers and us) that there even these cittas and cetasikas that think about concepts, however finely, have to be known as anicca, dukkha and anatta too. The metta and compassion can never lead out of samsara, only the development of vipassana can. ... H:> In fact, as I have seen folks here discuss concepts, concepts are often referred to as not existing at all, and for that usage, compassion would be insanity, and the Buddha's speaking of karuna as divine would be a promoting of insanity, ... S: What you say is along the lines of the comments on the recording you listened to. Trees and people don't exist in any ultimate sense because they are *thought about*. However, they are thought about because of particular realities. We don't have compassion for the trees because there are only rupas, no namas experiencing pain and loss, as in the case of the namas we think of as Sarah and Howard. I think we also have to remember how quickly cittas change. So there are moments of experiencing visible object, then thinking about a person, hearing sound, more thinking with or without kindness. Sanna marks and remembers continuously. Even a baby recognises and knows the difference between a living being (i.e namas and rupas) and a non-living being (i.e just rupas). When we think there must be a problem of having compassion towards a living being, a concept at that moment, the problem seems to be in the thinking, not in the experience. Perhaps Ken H or Scott or Alberto or anyone else may have more to suggest. With 'genuine' metta, Sarah ======== #91717 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, Just briefly back before I close down for the night... --- On Mon, 20/10/08, upasaka@... wrote: >"sabbe sankhara anicca....dukkha" to be referring to all conditioned dhammas to be anicca and dukkha regardless of whether they are experienced or not. ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- >Howard: Sarah, consider for a moment, please, two questions: 1) What would it *mean* for conditioned phenomena to be dukkha if there did not exist namas? (I purposely omit mention of sentient beings at the moment so as to avoid distraction. ) .... S: Any conditioned dhammas, inc. any rupas, are unsatisfactory on account of their impermanence and thereby not worth clinging to for an instant. ... 2) Why does the Buddha give tanha as the cause for dukkha? ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- S: Without tanha, there is no birth, no experience of dukkha at all. The 4NT refer to samsara and the escape from samsara. ... S:>>Of course, when it comes to the 4 Noble Truths, whilst "in summary, the 5 khandhas are dukkha", if there is no more clinging to them, there are no conditions for further birth. However, even for the rest of the arahant's life, even though no attachment remains, dhammas are still dukkha. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- >Howard: What does that mean to be dukkha? You have agreed that it means unsatisfactory. Unsatisfactory for what purpose? .... S: Worthless - a dart, a cess-pool, a honeyed-knife's edge - whichever descriptions you like. Even the rupas of the Buddha's body were dukkha and not worth being clung to by anyone. ... H:> Does not "satisfactory" depend on the purposes and desires of sentient beings (i.e., on certain cetasikas)? ... S: This is why no translation is truly 'satisfactory':-) The rupas on the moon are still anicca, dukkha and anatta, regardless of any lack of desires by sentient beings ('certain cetasikas';-)). However, they are not relevant to the 4NT and the way out of samsara if they are not experienced. I'll look forward to continuing any of these threads another time. Again, anyone else is most welcome to join in in the mean-time. Metta, Sarah ======= #91718 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries truth_aerator Hi TG, Scott, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear TG, > > Thanks for the reply: > > NEW TG: "Mindfulness has many facets to its meaning as seen in the > Suttas. Many are demonstrated in the Satipatthana Sutta. >Mindfulness > of things said and done long ago is also mindfulness. >Predominantly, > mindfulness is direct awareness of experiences in the sense of > 'monitoring' experiential events. Being mindful of the conditional > relationship of events is also part of that. But it is more than > that as well..." > > Scott: If mindfulness relates to 'things said and done long ago,' >how is this different from memory? Sati is/was used in suttas to also mean "memory". In fact I wouldn't be surprised if it really means "memory" or "to remember". > TG: "...The elements and aggregates are means of analysis, and not > ultimate realities. There is a Sutta, where when questioned about > this very point, the Buddha told the questioner that -- feeling, > perception, mental formations, consciousness were in actuality NOT > separate things, but that he separates them for means of analysis. >I > don't have the reference off the top of my head." > > Scott: This would be good to read, should you recall the citation. Maybe MN43 or (44) where 3 aggregates are inseperable (vinnana, vedana, sanna) Best wishes, #91719 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:03 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries truth_aerator Dear Tep, TG, and all, > "visitorfromtexas" wrote: > > Hello TG (Scott), - > > T: Please have a little mercy for other people like me whose language > skill is minimal. What are the Buddha's words for "conceptual > propagation" , papanca? Papanca -sanna- sankha? (or something like that) > "fictional narrative", one of the above probably. > and "unsavory actions"? More akusala actions? > important, how does mindfulness restrain "conceptual propagation" > and "fictional narrative" ? By remembering not to engage in activities that either harm, or lead on off track. Best wishes, #91720 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:44 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries visitorfromt... Dear Alex, - --- "Alex" wrote: > > Dear Tep, TG, and all, > > > "visitorfromtexas" wrote: > > > > Hello TG (Scott), - > > > > T: Please have a little mercy for other people like me > > whose language skill is minimal. > > What are the Buddha's words for "conceptual propagation", > > papanca? Papanca -sanna- sankha? (or something like that) > > "fictional narrative",one of the above probably. > > and "unsavory actions"? More akusala actions? > > important, how does mindfulness restrain "conceptual propagation" > > and "fictional narrative" ? > > By remembering not to engage in activities that either harm, > > or lead on off track. > > > Best wishes, > Thank you very much, Alex, for offering a little mercy. But the problem with those invented terms is like a pail of muddy water that cannot be cleared up by just a spoon of water. Tep === #91721 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries TGrand458@... In a message dated 10/20/2008 9:04:13 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Tep, TG, and all, > "visitorfromtexas" wrote: > > Hello TG (Scott), - > > T: Please have a little mercy for other people like me whose language > skill is minimal. What are the Buddha's words for "conceptual > propagation" , papanca? Papanca -sanna- sankha? (or something like that) > "fictional narrative", one of the above probably. > and "unsavory actions"? More akusala actions? > important, how does mindfulness restrain "conceptual propagation" > and "fictional narrative" ? By remembering not to engage in activities that either harm, or lead on off track. Best wishes, ............................................................... Hi Alex Very nice job. The only thing I would add regarding 'mindfulness restraining' is -- that the very act of being mindful of present experience is an action that puts a stop to conceptual proliferation/propagation through the duration of that mindful act. What you described is also a type of mindfulness but it involves thinking. I'm glad someone has a clue. ;-) TG OUT #91722 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. TGrand458@... Hi Howard (and Sarah) Good questions Howard. I really wouldn't add anything. Amazing how some seem to be able to completely disassociate the teachings from any practical application. Seems like a lack of collating meanings to me. Like I've said before, If someone takes just one sentence or even one Sutta and disassociates it from the greater context of the majority of Suttas, they can get the Dhamma to mean pretty much anything they want. Its great for arguing, but lousy for enlightenment. TG OUT In a message dated 10/20/2008 8:30:28 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: --- In _dhammastudygroup@dhammastudygdha_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , TGrand458@.., TG > TG: Dukkha requires a sentient system that feels/experiences. Things are > not MERELY Dukkha on account of their impermanence. It is on account of > impermanence and attachment that there is Dukkha. THIS requires a > "conglomeration" of interacting conditions. .... S: I understand "sabbe sankhara anicca....dukkha" to be referring to all conditioned dhammas to be anicca and dukkha regardless of whether they are experienced or not. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Sarah, consider for a moment, please, two questions: 1) What would it *mean* for conditioned phenomena to be dukkha if there did not exist namas? (I purposely omit mention of sentient beings at the moment so as to avoid distraction.m 2) Why does the Buddha give tanha as the cause for dukkha? -------------------------------------------------- Of course, when it comes to the 4 Noble Truths, whilst "in summary, the 5 khandhas are dukkha", if there is no more clinging to them, there are no conditions for further birth. However, even for the rest of the arahant's life, even though no attachment remains, dhammas are still dukkha. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: What does that mean to be dukkha? You have agreed that it means unsatisfactory. Unsatisfactory for what purpose? Does not "satisfactory" depend on the purposes and desires of sentient beings (i.e., on certain cetasikas)? The dictionary gives the following: Main Entry: sat·is·fac·to·ry Function: adjective Pronunciation: "sa-t&s-'fak-s-&-)re : giving satisfaction : _ADEQUATE _ (javascript:: giving : giving s: gi - sat·is·fac·to·ri·- &-)-&-le/ adverb - sat·is·fac·to·ri·- sat·is ------------------------------------------------------ Metta, Sarah ============================ With metta, Howard #91723 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 10/20/2008 5:43:49 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Thanks for the reply: NEW TG: "Mindfulness has many facets to its meaning as seen in the Suttas. Many are demonstrated in the Satipatthana Sutta. Mindfulness of things said and done long ago is also mindfulness. Predominantly, mindfulness is direct awareness of experiences in the sense of 'monitoring' experiential events. Being mindful of the conditional relationship of events is also part of that. But it is more than that as well..." Scott: If mindfulness relates to 'things said and done long ago,' how is this different from memory? .................................................... NEWER TG: In that case it is memory. .................................................... If mindfulness is 'direct awareness of experiences in the sense of monitoring experiential events', then isn't any being with any degree of sentience capable of mindfulness in some fashion all the time it is awake? .............................................................. NEWER TG: The key word I inserted that was meant to overcome this type of rebuttal was "monitoring." The very word "mindfulness" indicates it is a state elevated beyond just regular experience. There is extra attention applied. And the self-view based conceptual proliferation (being lost in thought) is curtailed during the process. I believe regular old delusion based 'attention' is what you're talking about in your question. I highly expect that you have your own ideas or Pali definitions on mindfulness. Please feel free to share them. TG OUT #91724 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:34 am Subject: Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. visitorfromt... Hi Sarah, Nina, Han (and all), - According to the PTS Dictionary, the term 'samodhaaneti' means to combine, put together, connect. The dhammas that siila combines are restraint, non-transgression, and intention (to restrain and not to transgress). The meaning of 'samodhaaneti' in siila may be seen by examining the following cases in #264: 264. With how many ideas(dhammas) does virtue combine? Virtue combines with restraint, virtue combines with non- transgression, virtue combines with the volition produced about such an idea [as restraint or non-transgression]. (1) In the case of killing living things virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. (2) In the case of wrong view virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. (3) Through renunciation in the case of zeal(chanda) for sensual- desires virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. (4) Through the first jhana in the case of the hindrances virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non- transgression. ................ T: Let me offer my interpretation. In case (1) restraint and non-transgression of killing is siila. In case (2) restraint and non-transgression of 'wrong view' is siila. In case (3) restraint and non-transgression of 'zeal for sensual- desires' is through renunciation. In case (4) restraint and non-transgression of the hindrances is through the first jhana. What do you think? [Dear Han, please help me with the Pali and Burmese translation to double-check my understanding. Thanks.] Tep === #91725 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. nilovg Dear Tep, Op 20-okt-2008, om 19:34 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > (2) In the case of wrong view virtue is in the sense of its restraint, > virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. ------ N: I was at first puzzled, but now I see your quote from the text. Further on, I see some clarification of this point: (after the Jhaanas and hindrances) we read: Then the text goes on about dukkha, not-self, etc. Thus, it is the contemplation of the opposite to what is wrongly perceived that there is restraint and non-transgression. I think that it is understanding, pa~n~naa that contemplates. Not merely intellectual understanding, but direct understanding developed through vipassanaa. I am also interested to know what Han thinks. He has his Burmese sources. ----- P.S. I also meant to ask you about your daughter. I understand that it is a matter of concern to be in Afganistan. Nina. #91726 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:21 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. nilovg Dear Tep, abiot hiri and ottappa. Op 19-okt-2008, om 4:42 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > If I understand what you have said correctly, even listening, > studying, and considering CAN condition akusala javana cittas, > because while we are listening more, studying more, and considering > more the citta may not be "intent on dana, sila or bhavana". ------- N: While listening with a sincere inclination, the cittas are intent on bhavana. Studying the teachings, explaining them are also included in bhavana, mental development. Of course in between there are likely to be akusala cittas. Nina. #91727 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Howard's video nilovg Hi Howard, Op 19-okt-2008, om 20:56 heeft Upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > a video that was sent to me as an attachment. I will attach that > video to this post. ------- N: I did not understand the person who explained very well and I watched a ball game I found boring. So I did not find anything special in it. But I was short of time and somewhat impatient. Thanks anyway for the trouble. Nina. #91728 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Howard's video upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/20/2008 2:29:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 19-okt-2008, om 20:56 heeft Upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > a video that was sent to me as an attachment. I will attach that > video to this post. ------- N: I did not understand the person who explained very well and I watched a ball game I found boring. So I did not find anything special in it. But I was short of time and somewhat impatient. Thanks anyway for the trouble. Nina. =============================== Watch it again, Nina, and pay close attention to what the guy said after the "ball game" and follow his directions. You have missed the entire point. When you DO discover what is going on, you will be all the more astonished at your description "I watched a ball game I found boring." Believe me, Nina, you will be amazed [I certainly was], and you will really learn something first-hand that will be valuable to you. Please overcome your impatience. It will be worthwhile. With metta, Howard #91729 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. kenhowardau Hi Sarah and Howard, -------- <. . .> S: > Perhaps Ken H or Scott or Alberto or anyone else may have more to suggest. --------- In a way, no, I don't have any more to suggest because I think Sarah's answer was excellent. But more can always be said. We can talk endlessly about the Dhamma and still not say it all. :-) Howard' original question was: -------- > It is Abhidhamma teaching, I have come to understand, that every citta & cetasika has a unique object. What is the object at a moment of compassion? -------- We are talking about objects of consciousness here, aren't we? We are not talking about scientific or philosophical beliefs. So, what are our objects of consciousness when we think about people in the normal course of our daily lives? If, for example, I have the thought "Oh, I must give some of these tomatoes to Bill," what is my object of consciousness - my mental depiction of my neighbour Bill - at that time? I think it will be just some vague reference point. It could be a fleeting mental image of the straw hat he sometimes wears, or the friendly wave he gives when people drive past his house. The actual object of consciousness when I think of Bill certainly doesn't need to be a complete and accurate representation: sentient being, species homo sapiens, seventy years of age, 180 centimetres tall, favourite colour blue . . . . Regardless of how thorough I try to be in having an accurate object of consciousness when I think of Bill I will always leave something out. And will it matter? No, just the recollection of his hat will be sufficient for me to give Bill a kind thought, and to remember to give him some tomatoes. So what's the problem? :-) Ken H #91730 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:13 pm Subject: Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. hantun1 Dear Tep (and others), Here are the Pali inserts. 261. What is virtue? There is virtue as volition (cetanaa), virtue as consciousness concomitant (cetasika), virtue as restraint (sam.vara), virtue as non-transgression (aviitikkama). ki.m siilanti? cetanaa siila.m, cetasika.m siila.m, sa.mvaro siila.m, aviitikammo siila.m. --------------------- 262. How many kinds of virtue are there? There are three kinds of virtue: profitable virtue, unprofitable virtue, indeterminate virtue. kati siilaaniiti? tii.ni siilaani: kusalasiila.m, akusalasiila.m, abyaakatasiila.m. -------------------- 263. From what does virtue originate? Profitable virtue originates from profitable cognizance (citta), unprofitable virtue originates from unprofitable cognizance, indeterminate virtue originates from indeterminate cognizance. ki.msamu.t.thaana.m siilanti? kusalacittasamu.t.thaana.m kusalasiila.m, akusalacittasamu.t.thaana.m akusalasiila.m, abyaakatacittasamu.t.thaana.m abyaakatasiila.m. -------------------- 264. With how many ideas(dhammas) does virtue combine(samodhaaneti)? Virtue combines with restraint, virtue combines with non-transgression, virtue combines with the volition produced about such an idea [as restraint or non-transgression]. Katidhammasamodhaana.m siilanti? Sa.mvarasamodhaana.m siila.m, aviitikkamasamodhaana.m siila.m, tathaabhaave jaatacetanaasamodhaana.m siila.m. -------------------- In the case of killing living things virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. In the case of taking what is not given ... sexual misconduct .... false speech ... malicious speech ... harsh speech .... gossip ... covetousness ... ill-will ... In the case of wrong view virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. paa.naatipaata.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. adinnaadaana.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. kaamesu micchaacaara.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. musaavaada.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. pisuna.m vaaca.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. pharusa.m vaaca.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. samphappalaapa.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. abhijjha.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. byaapaada.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. micchaadi.t.thi.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. -------------------- Through renunciation in the case of zeal (chanda) for sensual-desires virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through non ill-will in the case of ill-will virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through perception of light in the case of stiffness and torpor virtue is in the sense of its restraint, .... Through non-distraction in the case of agitation virtue is in the sense of its restraint, .... Through investigation-of-ideas in the case of uncertainty virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through knowledge in the case of ignorance virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through gladness in the case of boredom virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. nekkhammena kaamachanda.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. abyaapaadena byaapada.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. alokasa~n~naaya thiinamiddha.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. avikkhepa.t.thena uddhacca.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. dhammavavatthaanena vicikiccha.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ~naa.nena avijja.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. paamojjena arati.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. -------------------- Through the first jhana in the case of the hindrances virtue is ...non-transgression. Through the second jhana in the case of applied thought and sustained thought virtue is ... non-transgression. Through the third jhana in the case of happiness virtue is ... non-transgression. Through the fourth jhana in the case of pleasure and pain virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. pa.thamena jhaanena niivara.ne sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. dutiyena jhaanena vitakkavicaare sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. tatiyena jhaanena piiti.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. catutthena jhaanena sukhadukkha.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. -------------------- Han: Have you presented further than this? If so, please let me know. Yours truly, Han #91731 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:18 pm Subject: Re: anupubbasikkhaa hantun1 Dear Sarah and Jon, > Sarah: Just to remind you, the original quote Alex gave was; ["Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this discipline of Dhamma (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training (anupubbasikkhaa ), a gradual performance (anupubbakiriyaa ) , a gradual progression (anupubbapatipadaa ), with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch." Udana, 5.5] S: There was no "anupubbikathaa" given! ---------- Han: I did not claim that the Six Kathaas are in the suttas. In my original post I just mentioned that: [I am interested in your discussions on a gradual training (anupubbasikkhaa), because this gradual training is quite well-known in Burma. We call it Six Kathaas. (1) Daana kathaa, generosity (2) Siila kathaa, morality (3) Sagga kathaa, heaven or celestial states (4) Kaamagu.naa aadiinava kathaa, the drawbacks of sensual pleasures (5) Nekkhamma aanisansa kathaa, blessings of renunciation (6) Sacca kathaa, the Four Noble Truths.] Now that you had pointed out that the Six Kathaas are not in the suttas, I consider the Six Kathaas as a Burmese version unique to Burma only, and I am proud of it, as something which we can claim as our own!. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #91732 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:57 pm Subject: Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. visitorfromt... Dear Han (and All), - Your response to any request for help always comes back quickly as a flash. I only asked for 10 and you gave 40. Wonderful Pali inserts too ! ..................................... >Dear Tep (and others), >Here are the Pali inserts. >261. What is virtue? There is virtue as volition (cetanaa), virtue as consciousness concomitant(cetasika), virtue as restraint (sam.vara), virtue as non-transgression(aviitikkama). ki.m siilanti? cetanaa siila.m, cetasika.m siila.m, sa.mvaro siila.m, aviitikammo siila.m. --------------------- ... ... ... ... Through the first jhana in the case of the hindrances virtue is ... non-transgression. Through the second jhana in the case of applied thought and sustained thought virtue is ... non-transgression. Through the third jhana in the case of happiness virtue is ...non-transgression. Through the fourth jhana in the case of pleasure and pain virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. pa.thamena jhaanena niivara.ne sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. dutiyena jhaanena vitakkavicaare sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. tatiyena jhaanena piiti.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. catutthena jhaanena sukhadukkha.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. -------------------- >Han: Have you presented further than this? If so, please let me know. T: Not yet, dear Han. Part II will come later this week. Thank you again, very much. Tep === #91733 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:20 pm Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear TG, The mindfulness definition: "Mindfulness has many facets to its meaning as seen in the Suttas. Many are demonstrated in the Satipatthana Sutta. Mindfulness of things said and done long ago is also mindfulness. Predominantly, mindfulness is direct awareness of experiences in the sense of 'monitoring' experiential events. Being mindful of the conditional relationship of events is also part of that. But it is more than that as well..." Me: "If mindfulness relates to 'things said and done long ago,' how is this different from memory?" NEWER TG: "In that case it is memory." Scott: So, according to this view, mindfulness is memory. The view would suggest that it is possible to be 'mindful' of past events. How is this different from thinking about the past? What would the purpose be? Isn't it 'experience' now that is relevant? Me: "If mindfulness is 'direct awareness of experiences in the sense of monitoring experiential events', then isn't any being with any degree of sentience capable of mindfulness in some fashion all the time it is awake?" NEWER TG: "The key word I inserted that was meant to overcome this type of rebuttal was 'monitoring.' The very word 'mindfulness' indicates it is a state elevated beyond just regular experience. There is extra attention applied. And the self-view based conceptual proliferation (being lost in thought) is curtailed during the process." Scott: According to this view then, the predator would be said to become 'mindful' when its resting conscious state (which might be said to be 'regular experience') changes as it catches the scent of prey. The predator becomes 'mindful,' according to the view, since this would induce a certain 'monitoring' and entail 'extra attention.' TG: "I believe regular old delusion based 'attention' is what you're talking about in your question." Scott: The addition of the notion that 'mindfulness' is merely 'a state elevated beyond just regular experience' - heightened attention or 'monitoring' - does not address the question of how 'mindfulness' is somehow different than 'delusion based attention' - heightened or not. The view seems to suggest that 'mindfulness' is 'attention-plus.' I'm noting this because, as far as I understand, 'mindfulness' is a kusala dhamma. The view fails to account for this moral distinction. Sincerely, Scott. #91734 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries TGrand458@... Hi Scott, All I'm sorry my understanding of mindfulness does not meet with your approval. I'm sure you know much much better. It seems to me you are only interested in sniping. Constantly asking my position but not offering your own. Gee... do you think maybe you aren't even the slightest bit interested in my opinion? (Rhetorical) I guess you refuse to posit your own views for fear of being criticized yourself? And don't give me any of that. "I'm only engaging in discussion" crap. LOL I will answer one of your questions in case there is someone out there listening who cares -- Scott: So, according to this view, mindfulness is memory. The view would suggest that it is possible to be 'mindful' of past events. How is this different from thinking about the past? What would the purpose be? Isn't it 'experience' now that is relevant? NEWEST TG: What is relevant is understanding that Samsara is impermanent, suffering, and nonself to the extent necessary to escape it. This takes a wide range of skills...those addressed in the Suttas are a good place to find them. "What is experienced now" is irrelevant in and of itself. It is only relevant to the degree it aids in achieving the goal of escaping suffering. It is only one of many important things that need to be understood and known. And now I retire the useless communicato with Scotto TG OUT #91735 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. visitorfromt... Dear Nina (and others), - In message #91725 you wrote : N: I was at first puzzled, but now I see your quote from the text. Further on, I see some clarification of this point: (after the Jhaanas and hindrances) we read: Then the text goes on about dukkha, not-self, etc. Thus, it is the contemplation of the opposite to what is wrongly perceived that there is restraint and non-transgression. ................. T: I think you put the emphasis on vipassana such that siila becomes just a by-product, and it is misleading to me! So I'd rather say "restraint and non-transgression of 'nicca-sa~n~naa' through 'anicca-anupassana' is siila". For the case (1) , i.e. >(1) "In the case of killing living things virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression.", with the emphasis on siila I'd say "restraint and non-transgression of killing is siila" .......................... N: I think that it is understanding, pa~n~naa that contemplates. Not merely intellectual understanding, but direct understanding developed through vipassanaa. T: It is a human nature that tends to prefer one idea over the others. I think you always look at things through the understanding eye-glasses. Sure, contemplation is a function of the mind. Sure, understanding is developed through vipassana. But remember, there are siila and samaadhi that support pa~n~naa of the sekha (trainer). "There is the case, Mahanama, where a disciple of the noble ones is consummate in virtue, guards the doors to his sense faculties, knows moderation in eating, is devoted to wakefulness, is endowed with seven qualities, and obtains at will — without trouble or difficulty — the four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now." [ Sekha Patipada Sutta] ........................... N: I am also interested to know what Han thinks. He has his Burmese sources. T: He posted the Pali text for us earlier today. But he did not offer a thought. ----- N: P.S. I also meant to ask you about your daughter. I understand that it is a matter of concern to be in Afganistan. T: Yes. But now I know that she is ready for the task because she said recently, "I'm no longer afraid, Dad. It gives me an opportunity to practice Buddhism." Thank you for the kind thought, Nina. Tep === #91736 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:00 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue ... Not intent ... visitorfromt... Dear Nina (Howard, Alex), - I believe there is a lot to learn and understand about "listening, studying, and considering". >Tep: > If I understand what you have said correctly, even listening, > studying, and considering CAN condition akusala javana cittas, > because while we are listening more, studying more, and considering > more the citta may not be "intent on dana, sila or bhavana". ------- N: While listening with a sincere inclination, the cittas are intent on bhavana. Studying the teachings, explaining them are also included in bhavana, mental development. Of course in between there are likely to be akusala cittas. T: You have a lot of explaining to do, I think. What is "intent"? Is it one of the 4 Iddhipada? Does 'bhavana' accompany all the cittas while listening? How do you explain "the cittas are intent on bhavana" while listening "with a sincere inclination" ? How do you explain "Studying the teachings, explaining them are also included in bhavana" such that it is not just a personal ("self") thinking and believing? Thanking you in advance, Tep === #91737 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:16 pm Subject: Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. hantun1 Dear Tep and Nina, > Nina: I am also interested to know what Han thinks. He has his Burmese sources. > Tep: He posted the Pali text for us earlier today. But he did not offer a thought. Han: I have only Burmese translation and the Pali text in Burmese. I asked my friend to send me the Commentary from Burma, but it was out of stock. The Burmese translation that I have does not give more information than the English translation that you have. So I have nothing to add to your discussions. -------------------- > Nina: P.S. I also meant to ask you about your daughter. I understand that it is a matter of concern to be in Afganistan. > Tep: Yes. But now I know that she is ready for the task because she said recently, "I'm no longer afraid, Dad. It gives me an opportunity to practice Buddhism." Thank you for the kind thought, Nina. Han: I pray for the safety of your daughter, and for her successful mission in Afghanistan. Yours truly, Han #91738 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:25 pm Subject: Giving is Getting! bhikkhu0 Friends: Cause & Effect: Action & Reaction: Giving is the prime cause of Wealth! No giving = no wealth, much giving = much wealth! Giving Food, one gives and later gets Strength! Giving Clothes, one gives and later gets Beauty! Giving Medicine, one gives and later gets Health! Giving Shelter, one gives and later gets Protection! Giving Transport, one gives and later gets Swift Ease! Giving Lamps, one gives and later gets Light and Sight! Giving Learning, one gives and later gets Intelligence! Giving True Dhamma, one gives & later gets Deathlessness! Thus this gift of True Dhamma exceeds all other gifts... More on Generosity = The 1st mental perfection: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Glad_Giving.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Openhanded_Generosity.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/Generosity_Contemplation.htm The Gods became the Gods, by Giving to the Pure Ones! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #91739 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:30 am Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 4, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, We may wonder why it is necessary to learn about the different processes of cittas and the objects that are experienced by citta. It may all seem abstract. However, we can find out that everything that is taught in the Abhidhamma occurs in our daily life. There are time and again seeing, attachment to seeing and to visible object, attachment to the people and things we think of, and we can find out that attachment brings sorrow. A more precise knowledge of the different cittas and also of akusala citta and kusala citta will help us to develop more wholesomeness. Khun Sujin reminded us that when we see a flower or a cup there is usually clinging. This gave us a shock, we had not considered this enough ourselves. We are so used to akusala citta that we do not realize it when it is there. Besides, when akusala citta is accompanied by indifferent feeling we can easily be misled as to the nature of citta. When we pay attention to the shape and form of all the familiar things around us, such as a table, a flower or a cup, is there some clinging, even when we do not feel particularly glad? We want to see and we want to pay attention to the shape and form of things, even though we do not think about these things for a long time but just for a moment. We are so used to recognize the things and people around us and we do not know whether such moments are kusala or akusala. If the room would become pitch dark or we would become blind we would miss it not to be able to discern the things around us and that shows our clinging to all we experience. When we are reading a book there are moments of seeing and also moments of citta that think of the meaning of what is written, of the story, and such moments are different from seeing. We should investigate the nature of the different cittas which arise while we are reading. Seeing is vipåka, but thinking about what is written is either kusala or akusala. We think of the meanings of words mostly with clinging, we want to know the meaning of what we read. As regards hearing, this experiences sound through the ears. Hearing is vipåkacitta, the result of kamma; it is neither kusala citta nor akusala citta. Hearing hears, it does not know the origin of the sound, it does not think of the meaning of the sound. When we know that we perceive the sound of a bird or of the traffic, it is not hearing but thinking of concepts. As we have seen, the cittas which think of concepts are mostly akusala cittas with clinging. Thus, we have many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas. We had pondered over this before, but during this journey it all became clearer. We realized that we had not considered enough in daily life what has been taught in the Abhidhamma. ***** Nina. #91740 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:34 am Subject: Survey Quote nilovg Dear friends, There is no end to clinging to all the sense objects, to visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. We are infatuated with them and keep on clinging to them. These objects fall away, but they are replaced; the rúpas which fall away are succeeded by new ones. We are deluded and cling again to visible object, sound and the other sense objects which replace those which have fallen away and thus clinging continues all the time. When we see visible object and we like it, we want to see it again and again. When we hear a sound which we like we want to hear it again, and it is the same with odour, flavour and tangible object which we like. When we are eating and we like a particular flavour, we wish to eat the same food again and taste that flavour again. Clinging to the sense objects arises each day, time and again. It is our nature to cling through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-door. ********* Nina. #91741 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:15 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 307 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 307 Intro: In the previous sections the Dependent Origination was viewed in accordance with the two Discriminations, Pa.tisambhidaa, of meaning (attha) or the fruit of a cause, and of cause (dhamma). In the following section it is viewed in accordance with the enunciation in language (nirutti), in order to show its profundity. The Buddha, with his omniscience, knew the right words to explain the Dependent Origination in various ways. -------- 307. (c) Then the teaching of this [dependent origination] is profound since it needs to be given in various ways for various reasons, and none but omniscient knowledge gets fully established in it; --------- N: The Pali text has: also the teaching (desanaapi) is profound. In other words, the way the Buddha enunciates the Dependent Origination in language is deep. As to the words, ‘for various reasons’ (tena tena kaara.nena), the Tiika explains: in a way enunciated by the excellence of his awakening wisdom, for those who can be guided (to enlightenment). N: Only the Buddha, because of his omniscience could teach in such deep way. He was always intent on the welfare of those who could be guided to develop understanding leading to enlightenment. ----------- Text Vis.: for in some places in the Suttas it is taught in forward order, in some in backward order, ------- N: As to in backward order (pa.tiloma), this means starting from the end and going back to the beginning. Or it means, as the Tiika mentions, that he begins to explain that when there is the cessation of this condition, there is the cessation of that which is condioned by it. In K.S. II, 27, for example, he teaches: --------- N: The Tiika refers to various suttas as an illustration of the foregoing. It mentions as an example of starting from the middle and continuing in reverse order (patiloma) K.S. II, 11, Sustenances. The sutta begins with the four kinds of nutriment, which are physical nutriment, contact, volition and consciousness. These are the It is explained that craving is their condition, and that feeling is the condition for craving, and so on backwards to ignorance. The Tiika gives as an example of the teaching in forward order (anuloma), starting from the middle, with two sections and three links K.S. II, 70(§ 43, dukkha) that the Buddha said: The Tiika refers to the sutta about the Fetters, Sa.myojana), K.S. II, 86 (§ 53). The Fetters or Samyojanas are another group of akusala dhammas (see Dhammasangani 1113). The samyojanas "fetter" khandhas (in this life) to khandhas (of the next), or kamma to its fruit. We read in the sutta referred to by the Tiika that the Buddha said: The Tiika also refers to the K.S. II, 95 (§ 62) where the dependent origination is taught by way of a single factor. We read (in the translation by Ven. Bodhi): < The instructed noble disciple attends to this carefully and methodically in terms of dependent arising: 'When there is this, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this is absent, that does not come to be; with the ceasing of this, that ceases.’ > We read that the sutta states: ------- Conclusion. As we read in the sutta about the Fetters, when one contemplates enjoyment in what makes for enfettering, craving grows. Usually we find enjoyment in the fetter of sense desire. What we read can be verified in our life. We like to experience colour, sound and all the sense objects and thus craving grows evermore. But we read that the Buddha pointed out that it is dukkha to continue being in the cycle and he showed the way to be liberated therefrom. As we read: Understanding of nama and rupa, of cause and effect can lead to detachment. As we read in the Vis. text, the teaching of the Dependent Origination is profound, there is no other knowledge but the Buddha’s omniscient knowledge that becomes fully established in it. --------- Nina. #91742 From: "alberto.spera" Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:18 am Subject: Kusala or akusala? alberto.spera Hi, Akusala dhammas can be very hard to spot, especially in oneself, for instance I like to think that my appreciation of Dhamma is kusala, of course what else can it possibly be? Well, what about one of the 8 lobha-mula citta? The 8 lobha-mula (and also the two moha-mula), out of twelve akusala citta, can be very easily mistaken for kusala moments since they can have anything as their object, including the Dhamma. And even the 2 dosa-mula can be easily mistaken for kusala, for instance when one dislikes akusala, either one's own or others'. I don't like that (which btw is akusala) but it's a fact of Dhamma. The good news are that nama-dhammas, both kusala and akusala and also of vipaka and kiriya jati, and rupa-dhamma, can be known just as that, dhammas, instead that as me or them or tables or chairs, courtesy of 4 nana-sampayutta kusala citta (composed with panna), out of the 8 maha-kusala. And how do I get these 4 cittas? All that the I can get are toughts/concepts/pannati, not dhammas, which are anatta. And how do I get anatta? Of course the I will never get it. But the I can study and consider properly the Dhamma until this basic characterstic which all dhammas share sinks in. I think that this is the most basic purpose of the Dhamma, and whether this works out or not quite yet is up to dhammas, which are anatta anyway, with no exeption. #91743 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:35 am Subject: Re: anupubbasikkhaa jonoabb Hi Han (and Sarah) > Dear Sarah and Jon, ... > Now that you had pointed out that the Six Kathaas are not in the suttas, > I consider the Six Kathaas as a Burmese version unique to Burma only, and I am proud of it, as something which we can claim as our own!. > > Thank you very much. > Respectfully, > Han I think Sarah was just pointing out that the anupubbakathaa were not mentioned in the quote from Ud given by Alex. (she was not saying they are not found in the suttas). They are mentioned in the suttas, but to my knowledge they appear only in the context of a talk given by the Buddha to persons who are ready for enlightenment. Thanks again for your comments. Jon #91744 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Survey Quote .. "My Self" jonoabb Hi Howard > Are you saying that the notion that hearing, reflecting on and > pondering over the teachings can condition the arising of more kusala > in one's life is not found in the texts? > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It's alleged sufficiency is not. You give this as the alpha & omega of > Dhamma practice. It is not. > ------------------------------------------ So you keep saying ;-)). But that's not how I see it. As you point out below, there is a world of difference between the Dhamma-follower and the Buddhist academic. One of those difference is that the academic does not see what he is learning about as having relevance to the present moment. Without this, no amount of hearing or reflecting could condition the arising of understanding. > "What is a factor for stream-entry? > "Association with superior persons is a factor for stream-entry. > Hearing the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Careful > attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with > the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry..." > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes, a factor, ONE factor. The careful attention and the practice then Yes, all 4 factors are crucial, the fourth being the arising of panna itself. > The careful attention and the practice then > referred to are not the attention and practice of the scholar, but of the > listener to the Dhamma who then *follows* that Dhamma. The dhamma-follower appreciates that the teachings, i.e., what he has heard and is reflecting on, are relevant to what is happening at that very moment. So he is not just theorising about something hypothetical. Jon #91745 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:59 am Subject: Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. visitorfromt... Dear Han, - By saying that the Bermese translation is more or less the same with the English version it is already a good information to know. ...... > > Han: I pray for the safety of your daughter, and for her successful mission in Afghanistan. > > Yours truly, > Han > =========== T: I'll tell her about your kind pray, Han. Tep === #91746 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:13 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part I.. Hiri-Ottappa Importance visitorfromt... Dear Nina, - Let's go a little further on hiri-ottappa discussion. "There is the case, Mahanama, where a disciple of the noble ones is consummate in virtue, guards the doors to his sense faculties, knows moderation in eating, is devoted to wakefulness, is endowed with seven qualities, and obtains at will — without trouble or difficulty — the four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now." [MN 53 Sekha Patipada Sutta] ........................... T: Hiri and Ottappa are the two qualities in the seven for the sekha, and that is very significance ! "And how is the disciple of the noble ones endowed with seven qualities? "(1) There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones has conviction, is convinced of the Tathagata's Awakening ... "(2) He feels shame at [the thought of engaging in] bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct ... "(3) He feels concern for [the suffering that results from] bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. "(4) He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that — in their meaning & expression — proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure .. "(5) He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. "(6) He is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. "(7) He is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. "This is how the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with seven qualities. ................................... I hope you are glad to know. Tep === #91747 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear TG, Regarding: NEWEST TG: "What is relevant is understanding that Samsara is impermanent, suffering, and nonself to the extent necessary to escape it. This takes a wide range of skills...those addressed in the Suttas are a good place to find them. 'What is experienced now' is irrelevant in and of itself. It is only relevant to the degree it aids in achieving the goal of escaping suffering. It is only one of many important things that need to be understood and known..." Scott: We can stop the discussion, TG, if you wish. The above, while more or less true-seeming, is a generalisation - a truism - and doesn't address the central point of the discussion. The view which holds that it is all just conditions, while denying the reality of specific dhammas with characteristics, cannot be reconciled with the generalisation offered above. For example, it is stated that 'what is relevant is understanding that Samsaara is impermanent, suffering, and nonself.' 'Understanding' in relation to what? While there is no denying the truth of the sentiment, the view expressed cannot account for 'understanding', let alone impermanence, suffering, and nonself. 'Understanding' can have no meaning when it is sundered, even theoretically, from a consideration of realities. The tilakkha.na can have no meaning when sundered, even theoretically, from a consideration of realities. What is 'understanding'? What is the object of 'understanding'? What has the characteristics of anicca, dukkha, or anatta? As well, the assertion 'it is only one of many important things that need to be understood and known' sounds so true, yet, when one considers the view, again - that it is all just conditions, nothing else, since all is 'empty' - such an assertion has no meaning. The statement includes the notions of 'things', 'understanding', and 'knowing'. The statement implies a dynamic interaction between a 'thing' and the 'knowing' or 'understanding' of the 'thing,' but the view denies such realities in the name of 'emptiness'. The view would have it that 'emptiness' means there are no realities - no dhammas with characteristic and functions. We were discussing mindfulness. The view would have it that 'mindfulness' is not a reality, but only a process - only 'empty' conditions. The view would suggest that 'mindfulness' is merely an undifferentiated and undifferentiatable process. Such a view is untenable because it fails to account for the most basic fact that 'conditions' are the dynamics of 'things' and that there are different sorts of 'things' which serve functions as either conditioned or conditioning 'things'. Sincerely, Scott. #91748 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anupubbasikkhaa sarahprocter... Hi Han (& Jon), --- On Tue, 21/10/08, jonoabb wrote: >H: Now that you had pointed out that the Six Kathaas are not in the suttas, > I consider the Six Kathaas as a Burmese version unique to Burma only, and I am proud of it, as something which we can claim as our own!. ... J:> I think Sarah was just pointing out that the anupubbakathaa were not mentioned in the quote from Ud given by Alex. (she was not saying they are not found in the suttas). ... S: Yes, there are many references to the aupubbakathaa in the suttas. I was just relating the thread back to Alex's original quote and question. For example, we read about the 'progressive instruction'(aupubbakathaa) in the Upaali sutta, MN 56. Jon introduced it some time ago: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12042 J:"As you know, I believe the teaching on Right Concentration and all the other factors of the Noble Eightfold Path can only be understood by properly understanding the nature of the Noble Eightfold Path itself. In this regard I thought the following passage might be of interest. It is a passage I'm sure you're familiar with, as it appears quite often in the suttas. It's known as the 'gradual/progressive instruction' (aanupubbii-kathaa), and it's the instruction given by the Buddha to those who were ready for enlightenment. This particular example comes from MN 56 'To Upaali' (trans. 'Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha' BB) "18. Then the Blessed One gave the householder Upaali progressive instruction, that is, talk on giving, talk on virtue, talk on the heavens; he explained the danger, degradation, and defilement in sensual pleasures and the blessing of renunciation. When he knew that the householder Upaali's mind was ready, receptive, free from hindrances, elated, and confident, he expounded to him the teaching special to the Buddha's: suffering, its origin, cessation, and the path." The sutta goes on to say that even as Upaali sat there, 'the spotless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in him: "All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation."' and he attained stream-entry. What I find interesting here is the fact that the Four Noble Truths are the very culmination of the progressive instruction, and the teaching about them is given only when the listener's understanding is so highly developed that he is ready for immediate enlightenment. Specifically, it is the Buddha's teaching of the Noble Eightfold Path (as the 4th Noble Truth) that is the last part of the progressive instruction heard by the listener before attaining enlightenment. I don't know if you've ever considered the significance of this passage as regards the nature of the Noble Eightfold Path. To me, it very much puts the Noble Eightfold Path as a description of the moment of path consciousness about to be attained by the listener, rather than as an 8-step program for development towards that (very imminent) path moment. Also of interest in the progressive instruction is the reference to the listener's mind being 'free from hindrances'. This I believe is a freedom brought about by the kusala engendered by the preceding part of the progressive instruction on dana, sila and renunciation of sense-desires (and does not refer to the suppression of the hindrances as a result of the concentration associated with samatha bhavana)." S: You might like to also see Nina's follow-up message after checking the commentary to this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12099 Metta, Sarah ======= #91749 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:35 am Subject: More tales from Big Wave Bay sarahprocter... Dear Jon, Nina & all, (Cindy, Rebecca & Kenneth), I had some wonderful Dhamma discussions at Big Wave Bay today. After a swim in the small waves and a little play on my surf-board (unable to catch any waves at all), I relaxed at the 'kiosk' on the beach where we drink eat and have our breafkast when we visit. I'd already arranged to meet a friend, Cindy there for Dhamma discussion, but by chance whilst waiting for her, bumped into who runs the kiosk. He introduced me to his fiancee, Rebecca and told her about our very keen interest in Buddhism. It also seemed that Kenneth had remembered little bits from previous chats with Jon and I and we had a short but good discussion about present moment realities, meditation 'now', regardless of whether on the surf-board (Kenneth's a keen surfer) or in the temple. We chatted about understanding seeing, visible object, thinking, hardness and so on in order to see there really is no self. This came up because Kenneth wondered whether we (Jon and I) follow any particular rituals. It was a short chat, but very deep and I promised to give them one of Nina's books next time - the Dhamma is the best wedding present if the couple are responsive as they are! Cindy arrived and the two of us had a long leisurely discussion about the Dhamma while we sipped tea, ate our omelettes and salad, whilst looking out at the waves and relaxing in the gentle sun. Cindy is American-Taiwanese and involved with an association in Taiwan that publishes Buddhist books. The other day I'd met her briefly because she'd wished to ask whether I could help with a project re-writing some Buddhist sayings, keeping close to the meaning of the Buddha's teachings. I'd looked at some and mentioned that I thought they were at odds with the Buddha's teachings as we view them, such as the ideas about finding the purity within (the Mahayana luminous idea). Cindy had agreed that most of what is to be found is the attachment, aversion and ignorance rather than any purity! We discussed the unwholesome roots further and the implications of understanding and accepting the defilements when they arise as opposed to looking for the so-called purity. We briefly discussed about the times, like in deep sleep, when no defilements arise (the 'luminous' consciousnesses in the reference). Should we try to have those experiences, Cindy wondered? We both agreed that when we try to have certain experiences or wish for particular pure states, such as looking for calm, it's actually just attachment and Self at work again. We also discussed a lot about present realities (thanks to Kenneth and Rebecca, I was 'warmed up'!). We all have long stories about various problems, whether work, financial, health or difficult family members, for example. However, they are just long stories with variations of theme, on and on, this life, last life, next life, the same. Cindy produces films and writes stories, so she could appreciate this point. The real problems come down to the attachments and ignorance which are the conditions for life after life. At least in the human life, we have the chance to develop more understanding. We also touched on the worldly conditions and how there will always be 'ups' and 'downs' in a worldly sense, but how with understanding one is firm about the path at such times. Both Rebecca and Cindy commented that the emphasis on 'present moment awareness' sounded very Zen. However, we have to consider and get to know what the awareness can be aware of. There has to be the distinguishing between realities and ideas as when we have the long stories. We both agreed the Path sounds simple but is very subtle. it's not a matter of trying to change or escape, but of understanding these realities conditioned now. We discussed impermanence and Dukkha (suffering/unsatisfactoriness) as inherent in all conditioned realities. Her mother has a lot of pain and even though Cindy reminds her about kamma and its results, her mother finds it very difficult to accept because she's led a good life. I mentioned that there have been so many, many lives. We've all accumulated a lot of good and bad kamma. I had meant to go on to say that it's the aversion and dwelling on the pain that causes the real problems, but that'll have to be next time. We discussed how the path comes back to understanding 'our own' mental and physical phenomena. If we wish family members to share our interest, it's attachment again, different from kindness and compassion when we help or show patience and understanding of their interests. The teachings clearly go against the ways of the world and what we've been taught to believe in, such as 'having confidence in oneself' as a good quality or 'finding oneself', as Cindy remarked. Is the understanding of no-self scary or very helpful or both? The other day, another friend had commented on how Cindy is always very serene. We discussed today how we can't tell anything about people by appearances. As Cindy said, we don't know what someone is thinking. There can only ever be understanding of 'our own' mental states at such a time. Cindy found out that I'd lived in a temple for a while and wondered if I ever wish to do the same again. I mentioned that for me, a pretty sociable person, that it was an unnatural sort of lifestyle to live in a temple, cutting most contact. At the time, I'd had the idea that the best way to follow the path was to live in a secluded place and all that went with such a lifestyle, but I hadn't thought that way since. Life is so simple when we appeciate that there are no special places to live, special activities to follow and that understanding and awareness can develop no matter what happens in life. It was a lovely opportunity for me to reflect on these points. As Jon's still away in Fiji, I really appreciate such contact too. I gave Cindy a couple of books and I'm sure we'll have further discussions either at Big Wave Bay or even here on DSG, perhaps - all depending on conditions, of course:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #91750 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More tales from Big Wave Bay nilovg Dear Sarah, I thoroughly enjoyed your Dhamma conversation at Big Wave. In relation to your remark I quoted below I also thought of Jon's words to Howard so well expressed: How good he still can find time in Fiji. Nina. Op 21-okt-2008, om 16:35 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Both Rebecca and Cindy commented that the emphasis on 'present > moment awareness' sounded very Zen. However, we have to consider > and get to know what the awareness can be aware of. There has to be > the distinguishing between realities and ideas as when we have the > long stories. We both agreed the Path sounds simple but is very > subtle. it's not a matter of trying to change or escape, but of > understanding these realities conditioned now. #91751 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concept Permanent and unconditioned? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Back to #91231 --- On Fri, 10/10/08, upasaka@... wrote: >S: Like now, there is seeing, there is thinking and so on. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ >Howard: Yes, certainly so - for all beings. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ >S:Considering and appreciating that at this moment, there are just these fleeting dhammas arising and falling away, no person in them at all, can be a condition for awareness even now as we speak of a reality, a dhamma which appears. ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- Howard: So, now you're talking about thinking and theorizing. I would far sooner put that aside and "look"! ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- S: No, I was talking about awareness of seeing or thinking or any other reality that appears 'even now'. If there hasn't been the considering about 'these fleeting dhammas', then there won't be any awareness of them. .... >S:Just the world of seeing, of hearing, of thinking - nothing else at all. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- >Howard: But you are sticking with the thinking, it seems to me, Sarah. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- S: Not at all. At this moment, no matter what words are used, there is just one of these worlds. It can be known directly when it appears. .... >S: At the moment of touching, just hardness appears, then immediately thinking about the story. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- >Howard: And you are here just telling yourself a story about touching and hardness, it seems to me. As soon as that happens, you have left the reality of hardness and awareness of hardness. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- S: We have to use words to communicate, but when I refer to 'just hardness appears', I'm not talking about a story of hardness, but the reality which can be directly known. .... >S:Considering more and more about the realities which make up our life now is the condition for direct awareness and understanding to develop, but not by trying to do anything. ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ >Howard: What is all this "considering, " Sarah. That's another word for story-making. Like the Tao, the "realities" you *think* about are not the real realities. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- S: Without hearing and considering about such realities, there cannot be the awareness and understanding of them. If we haven't heard and reflected on the Buddha's teachings, there is no way self-view can be eradicated. Even the Buddha's main disciples needed to hear and *think* about realities. ... >S: As soon as there's the idea of 'trying to do', self is brought back into the equation and we go off-track again. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - >Howard: And all this thinking IS a "trying to do." ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- S: If there is a *trying to think* with an idea of doing this as a practice, then it's wrong again, because it would be with an idea of self, not an understanding of what is conditioned already. ... >S: .... For the Buddhist (of course, referring to the one with developed wisdom of the path here), the outer appearances of life go on the same. They still type on a computer and wash the body. The difference is that there is no idea of the realities or elements as being computers or body-parts in actuality. Like when you always quote from the Bahiya udana, the seen is understood in the seen. No confusing of the seen for the trees. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- >Howard: So, you are saying that the difference is a matter of belief. IMO, that's not good enough, and I do not recall having reading the Buddha as indicating that it was. Moslems have beliefs, Jews do, Hindus also, and Christians as well. But the Buddha taught "ehipassiko. " To come and see goes far beyond "considering. " ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- S: No it's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of understanding. I said I was referring to "the one with developed wisdom of the path". As you say, this is "ehipassiko" which goes "far beyond 'considering'". Metta, Sarah ======== #91752 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: As you know, there are many different kinds of concepts - those based on realities (such as trees and people) and those which aren't (such as purple flying elephants). > This is very interesting. I don't think I have ever read you use this distinction before. What exactly is the difference between these "concepts"? Is one more real than the other, or something else? Metta, James #91753 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kusala or akusala? nilovg Dear Alberto, Op 21-okt-2008, om 11:18 heeft alberto.spera het volgende geschreven: > But the I can study and > consider properly the Dhamma until this basic characterstic which all > dhammas share sinks in. I think that this is the most basic purpose of > the Dhamma, and whether this works out or not quite yet is up to > dhammas, which are anatta anyway, with no exeption. -------- N: It is up to the dhammas, that is a good reminder. I just heard a tape, (track 10 A, f,K.K , 10/1/2007) that Kh. Sujin reminded me that when I say: there is no Lodewijk, it is just thinking, and that it is still self that thinks. But Pa~n~naa sees the clinging, she said. Before we realize it, akusala comes in, also when considering the Dhamma. Thanks for your reminders, Nina. #91754 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:20 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue ... Not intent ... nilovg Dear Tep, Op 21-okt-2008, om 5:00 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > N: While listening with a sincere inclination, the cittas are intent > on bhavana. Studying the teachings, explaining them are also included > in bhavana, mental development. Of course in between there are likely > to be akusala cittas. > > T: You have a lot of explaining to do, I think. > > What is "intent"? Is it one of the 4 Iddhipada? > Does 'bhavana' accompany all the cittas while listening? > ---------- N: The cittas are engaged with bhavana, bhavana is the aim. We cannot say: accompany, while listening there is the activity of mental development, more understanding is being developed. It actually means: making become. ---------- > T: How do you explain "the cittas are intent on bhavana" > while listening "with a sincere inclination" ? ------- N: Not with wrong motivations, such as: I will have more knowledge than others, or, I show that I know more, lots of conceit. Then it is not sincere, not with the aim to have more understanding and see whatever appears as just dhamma. --------- > > T: How do you explain "Studying the teachings, explaining them are > also > included in bhavana" such that it is not just a personal ("self") > thinking and believing? ----------- N: Study and explaining are ways to have more understanding. The effect should be thinking less of my personal understanding, my understanding. The Atthasaalinii explains about the ten pu~n~na kiriyavatthus, bases of meritorious actions. In the suttas you find them in three parts: dana, sila and bhaavana. Have you heard of these ten? Under bhaavana is: samatha, vipassanaa and also studying and explaining the Dhamma. I find these ten inspiring. For instance, when I am not able to give material gifts I can express my appreciation about others' kusala, and this is anumodana daana. Like you are telling me about your daughter who finds that she now can practise in Afghanistan the Dhamma. I appreciate this very much, anumodana. Thus, one can give spiritual gifts as well. See Ven. Samahita today: Nina. #91755 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. nilovg Dear Tep, Op 21-okt-2008, om 4:35 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > T: I think you put the emphasis on vipassana such that siila becomes > just a by-product, and it is misleading to me! So I'd rather > say "restraint and non-transgression of 'nicca-sa~n~naa' > through 'anicca-anupassana' is siila". ------- N: No, siila together with understanding, not a byproduct. We are here in the context of sila-maya~naa.na, that is the title. . ~naa.na is pa~n`naa. First there is sutta-maya~naa.na in this book. And then siila which is the practice. Not without listening first. The first sentence of my Thai edition (and Commentary) is: Pa~n~naa in the case of having listened is , it guards or controls. This is siila maya~naa.na, and in what way? Then the ways are enumerated. > virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of > its non-transgression>, we would have expected anicca sa~n~naa as > opposed to nicca sa~n`naa, but here it states: aniccaanupassana, > this is aanupassana, from seeing passati. Seeing again and again > (anu). It is development of vipassanaa. Also this can be under the > heading of siila. It is very meaningful. > .......................... > > T: It is a human nature that tends to prefer one idea over the > others. I think you always look at things through the understanding > eye-glasses. Sure, contemplation is a function of the mind. Sure, > understanding is developed through vipassana. But remember, there are > siila and samaadhi that support pa~n~naa of the sekha (trainer). ------- N: Yes, I do. Num made a study before of the Patisambidha and reminded us: the whole book is about right understanding. The title patisambidha, discrimination, tells us enough. > You said: siila and samaadhi that support pa~n~naa of the sekha > (trainer). Sure, they do. But we have to investigate which levels. > Deep material to go into, too long for now. Thanks for the sutta in your other post on hiri and ottappa. Nina. #91756 From: "www.atulasiriwardane.com" Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:29 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] On Virtue (siila) .. The way to establish awareness.. asiri57 You can practice it at home if you practice according to "Maha Satipatthana Sutta" which Buddha says as 'The one and only way to Purify the being". Atula http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Vipassana-ArtofLiving/ __________________________________________________________ "That which does not kill me, makes me stronger" -Friedrich Nietzsche --- On Sat, 10/18/08, visitorfromtexas wrote: But many Buddhists I know are not so dedicated to retreats like you. Is retreat necessary for Buddhists? Why can't they practice the magga factors according to the Suttas or the Abhidhamma in daily living environment? Regardless of one's approach, the true test is in the result: are we now better off in terms of steadily reducing lobha, dosa, moha to a significantly lower level than yesterday, last week, or last month? vft #91757 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:48 pm Subject: Q. Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part I. visitorfromt... Dear Nina (Sarah), - I appreciate your taking time to elaborate on the issues of siila and panna in your last two posts. I now have a better understanding about how you look at these two important dhammas. I do not have any more question to ask. There are several ways to reach a mountain top. Each person has to make her/his own choice. Thank you again. Tep === #91758 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:00 pm Subject: Re: anupubbasikkhaa hantun1 Dear Sarah and Jon, I had indeed misunderstood your points. I thought you had discredited our belief in Six Kathaas (anupubbikathaa). I thought you were saying that there are only a gradual training (anupubbasikkhaa), a gradual performance (anupubbakiriyaa), a gradual progression (anupubbapatipadaa) in the suttas. That annoyed me. Of course, I did not know that it was mentioned in Upaali sutta, MN 56, and I thank you very much for mentioning that sutta. It is beneficial for my future reference. As regards the Buddha teaching these gradual training to the persons who are ready for enlightenment, I only wonder whether these teachings are useless to people like me who would never be ready for enlightenment in this life. As regards the Noble Eightfold Path being a moment of path consciousness about to be attained by the listener, rather than as an 8-step program for development towards that (very imminent) path moment, I think you are talking about the Buddha’s time. What about today? Do you still think that today also the Noble Eightfold Path is a moment of path consciousness and not an 8-step program for development towards that path moment? Respectfully, Han #91760 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:39 pm Subject: On Virtue (siila) .. Part II visitorfromt... Hi Nina, Sarah (Han, Alex etc.), - This is the second part of "On Virtue" from the Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga). It continues from the last sentence of Part I, which is : 'Through the fourth jhana in the case of pleasure and pain virtue is is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression.' It is long, but its based on the same formula that we have discussed. The key idea is that virtue in the sense of restraint and non- transgression (with volition to restrain & non-transgress) also applies to the 8 jhanas, the 18 principal insights, and the four paths (stream-entry path through arahant path). ................ Through the attainment of the base consisting of boundless space in the case of perception of materiality, perceptions of resistance and perceptions of variety virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. Through the attainment of the base consisting of boundless consciousness in the case of perception of the base consisting of boundless space virtue is in the sense of ... non-transgression. Through the attainment of the base consisting of nothingness in the case of perception of the base consisting of boundless consciousness virtue is in the sense of ...non-transgression. Through the attainment of the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception in the case of perception of the base consisting of nothingness virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of impermanence in the case of perception of permanence virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through contemplation of pain in the case of perception of pleasure virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through contemplation of not self in the case of perception of self virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through contemplation of dispassion in the case of delighting virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through contemplation of fading away of greed in the case of greed virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through contemplation of cessation in the case of arising virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through contemplation of renunciation in the case of grasping virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through contemplation of destruction in the case of perception of compactness virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through contemplation of fall in the case of accumulation virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through contemplation of change in the case of perception of lastingness virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through contemplation of signless in the case of the sign [of formations] virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through contemplation of the desireless in the case of desire virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... Through contemplation of voidness in the case of misinterpretation virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through insight into ideas which is the higher understanding in the case of misinterpretation due to greed virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through correct knowledge and seeing in the case of misinterpretation due to confusion ... Through contemplation of danger in the case of misinterpretation due to reliance [on formations] ... Through contemplation of reflection in the case of non-reflection ... Through contemplation of turning away in the case of misinterpretation due to bondage virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Through the stream-entry path inthe case of the defilements coefficient with wrong view, virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. Through the once-return path in the case of gross defilements ... Through the non-return path in the case of secondary defilements ... Through the arahant path in the case of all defilements virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non- transgression. [end of #264] ....................... Part III which is the last presentation, is scheduled for later next week. Tep === #91761 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. sarahprocter... Hi James (& Howard), --- On Wed, 22/10/08, buddhatrue wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: As you know, there are many different kinds of concepts - those based on realities (such as trees and people) and those which aren't (such as purple flying elephants). > J:> This is very interesting. I don't think I have ever read you use this distinction before. What exactly is the difference between these "concepts"? Is one more real than the other, or something else? ... S: Concepts are just concepts, regardless of the type of concept. What I wrote above was an over-simplification, but there are concepts of realities, such as sounds, likes, dislikes. There are also concepts of what is unreal, such as trees and people, but while trees and people are unreal, they are clearly based on realities, on various namas and rupas which have been experienced. And then there are concepts, such as the purple flying elephants, which are easily understood as purely imaginary. There is a lot of detail in U.P. (of course!) under 'Concepts' such as in the following early messages of Jon's and Robert K's: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3494 J: >An analysis of concepts. "Ch. VIII of the Adhidhammattha Sangaha - in translation as ‘A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma’ (CMA) - contains a detailed analysis of concepts. This section is included because, as mentioned in an earlier post in this series, concepts are included in the abhidhamma by the treatise ‘Puggala-pannatti’. Concepts are twofold (CMA #29 and Guide to #29): Concept as ‘that which is made known’; these are called ‘meaning concepts’ or ‘concepts-as-meanings’ (attha-pannatti), and Concept as ‘that which makes known’: these are called ‘name concepts’ or ‘concepts-as-names’ (nama-pannatti). Meaning concepts ‘Meaning-concept’ refers to the meaning conveyed by a concept. For example, the notion of a four-legged, furry domestic animal is the meaning-concept of the term ‘dog’. [CMA Guide to #29] Name-concepts ‘Name-concept’ is a name or designation that conveys a meaning. For example, the designation and idea ‘dog’ is the name-concept which corresponds to the meaning-concept given in the previous example. [CMA Guide to #29] Each of these 2 kinds of concepts can be further classified as follows There are 6 kinds of meaning concepts (CMA Guide to #30) - 1. Concepts which correspond to the form of things (eg, land, mountain) 2. Concepts which correspond to a collection or group of things (house, chariot, village) 3. Concepts which correspond to a locality or direction (east, west etc) 4, Concepts which correspond to periods or units of time (morning, noon, week etc) 5. Concepts which correspond to spatial regions void of perceptible matter (well, cave etc) 6. Concepts which correspond to the mental sign gained by meditative development (called nimitta-pannati) CMA #30 says: "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things. They are called concepts because they are thought of … and expressed … on account of … this or that mode. This kind of concept is so called because it is made known." There are also 6 kinds of name-concepts (CMA #31 & Guide to #31) - 1. A (direct) concept of the real. This refers to a concept that designates a reality, eg. ‘rupa’, ‘feeling’. 2. A (direct) concept of the unreal. This refers to a term that conveys the meaning of a thing that is a conventional entity, not an ultimate reality, eg. ‘land’ and ‘mountain’. 3. A concept of the unreal by means of the real. In the term ‘possessor of the sixfold direct knowledge’, the direct knowledge are ultimately real but the ‘possessor’ is a mental construction. 4. A concept of the real by means of the unreal. In the term ‘woman’s voice’, the sound of the voice ultimately exists but not the woman. 5. A concept of the real by means of the real. In the term ‘eye-consciousness’, both the eye-sensitivity and the consciousness dependent on it exist in an ultimate sense. 6. A concept of the unreal by means of the unreal. In the term ‘king’s son’, neither the king nor the son ultimately exist. Concepts are the means by which meaning is understood- In the Summary section (CMA #32) it is explained: "By following the sound of speech through the process of ear-consciousness, and then by means of the concept conceived by (the process in the) mind-door that subsequently arises, meanings are understood. These concepts should be understood as fashioned by worldly convention." To summarise: Although concepts are not real and cannot be the object of satipatthana, it is helpful to know more about them, so that they are not taken for realities." Jon< ***** From Rob K's message in which he introduced the 'flying purple elephant": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12225 >"Concepts are certainly unreal. People doubt this but they can prove it to themself if there is direct insight. That is what the development of satipatthana reveals - that it is only ignorance that takes concepts for realities. As the Abhidhammathasangaha says about concepts like human, person, man, chariot that "All such different things , though they do not exist in the ultimate sense , become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of ultimate things (paramattha dhammas)"(bodhi p.326 Just to be explicit: the thinking process consists of different cittas and cetasikas all arising and passing away rapidly. These are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. let us consider a couple of thinking. 1. Think of a flying purple elephant. The process of thinking that imagines this, whether a graphic visualisation or your no-frills, idea only version, consists of cittas and cetasikas. The object of this thinking is a concept, not real. 2. Think of your mother or father (whether alive or not). Again same process - the cittas and cetasikas of the thinking process are real but the object, mother and father, is concept- not real. 3. If your mother and father were right in front of you now (talking to you) and you think of them, again the object is concept, not real; but the thinking process is real. The colours are real, the sounds are real, but mother and father is concept. Obviously example 1 is easily understood. It is number 2 and especially number 3 that in daily life we get confused by. Satipatthana can only take paramattha dhammas for object, not concepts. Does this mean we should try not to think of concepts? Some would have us do this but this is not the middle way. All the arahants thought of concepts but they could never confuse concept for reality...."< **** S: Thanks for your interest, James. Apologies for the length of this post. I'd be interested to hear any of your further reflections. Metta, Sarah ======= #91762 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:04 pm Subject: The Common Core of all Good! bhikkhu0 Friends: The Fourfold Advantage: A deity once asked the Buddha: What is good, even when one is old? What is good, when established? What is a human's most precious treasure? What is hard for thieves to steal? The blessed Buddha answered: Morality is good, even when one is old! Faith is good, when established! Understanding is human's most precious treasure! Merit is hard for thieves to steal! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 36 Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ... #91763 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anupubbasikkhaa sarahprocter... Dear Han, (& Jon) just briefly for now: --- On Wed, 22/10/08, han tun wrote: From: han tun >I had indeed misunderstood your points. I thought you had discredited our belief in Six Kathaas (anupubbikathaa) . I thought you were saying that there are only a gradual training (anupubbasikkhaa) , a gradual performance (anupubbakiriyaa) , a gradual progression (anupubbapatipadaa) in the suttas. That annoyed me. Of course, I did not know that it was mentioned in Upaali sutta, MN 56, and I thank you very much for mentioning that sutta. It is beneficial for my future reference. ... S: Misunderstandings are easy here and I understand why you took it as you did. No problem at all. I just wished to clarify that a) it wasn't in the Udana quote and b) it's common in other parts of the Tipitaka, including the suttas. I'll let Jon respond to the other parts which were related to his messages - let's give him some Dhamma homework in Fiji:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #91764 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:52 pm Subject: Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part II. hantun1 Dear Tep, Here are the Pali inserts. Through the attainment of the base consisting of boundless space in the case of perception of materiality, perceptions of resistance and perceptions of variety virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. Aakaasaana~ncaayatanasamaapattiyaa ruupasa~n~na.m pa.tighasa~n~na.m naanattasa~n~na.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through the attainment of the base consisting of boundless consciousness in the case of perception of the base consisting of boundless space virtue is in the sense of ... non-transgression. vi~n~naana~ncaayatanasamaapattiyaa aakaasaana~ncaayatanasa~n~na.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through the attainment of the base consisting of nothingness in the case of perception of the base consisting of boundless consciousness virtue is in the sense of ...non-transgressio n. aaki~nca~n~naayatanasamaapattiyaa vi~n~naa.na~ncaayatanasa~n~na.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through the attainment of the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception in the case of perception of the base consisting of nothingness virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. Nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatanasamaapattiyaa aaki~nca~n~naayatanasa~n~na.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ==================== Through contemplation of impermanence in the case of perception ofpermanence virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. (1) aniccaanupassanaaya niccasa~n~na.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of pain in the case of perception of pleasure virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... (2) dukkhaanupassanaaya sukhasa~n~na.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of not self in the case of perception of self virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... (3) anattaanupassanaaya attasa~n~na.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of dispassion in the case of delighting virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... (4) nibbidaanupassanaaya nandi.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of fading away of greed in the case of greed virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... (5) viraagaanupassanaaya raga.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of cessation in the case of arising virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... (6) nirodhaanupassanaaya samudaya.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of renunciation in the case of grasping virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... (7) pa.tinissaggaanupassanaaya aadaana.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of destruction in the case of perception of compactness virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... (8) khayaanupassanaaya ghanasa~n~na.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of fall in the case of accumulation virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... (9) vayaanupassanaaya aayuuhana.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of change in the case of perception of lastingness virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... (10) vipari.naamaanupassanaaya dhuvasa~n~na.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of signless in the case of the sign [of formations] virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... (11) animittaanupassanaaya nimitta.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of the desireless in the case of desire virtue is in the sense of its restraint, ... (12) appa.nihitaanupassanaaya pa.nidhi.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of voidness in the case of misinterpretation virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. (13) su~n~nataanupassanaaya abhinivesa.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through insight into ideas which is the higher understanding in the case of misinterpretation due to greed virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. (14) adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya saaraadaanaabhinivesa.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through correct knowledge and seeing in the case of misinterpretation due to confusion ... (15) yathaabhuuta~naa.nadassanena sammohaabhinivesa.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of danger in the case of misinterpretation due to reliance [on formations] ... (16) aadiinavaanupassanaaya aalayaabhinivesa.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ---------- Through contemplation of reflection in the case of non-reflection ... (17) pa.tisaâ€?nkhaanupassanaaya appa.tisaâ€?nkha.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ----------- Through contemplation of turning away in the case of misinterpretation due to bondage virtue is in the sense of its restraint, virtue is in the sense of its non-transgression. (18) viva.t.taanupassanaaya sa~n~nogaabhinivesa.m sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. ==================== Through the stream-entry path inthe case of the defilements coefficient with wrong view, virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non-transgression. Through the once-return path in the case of gross defilements ... Through the non-return path in the case of secondary defilements ... Through the arahant path in the case of all defilements virtue is in the sense of their restraint, virtue is in the sense of their non- transgression. [end of #264] Sotaapattimaggena di.t.thena.t.the kilese sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. Sakadaagaamimaggena olaarike kilese sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. Anaagaamimaggena a.nusahagate kilese sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. Arahattamaggena sabbakilese sa.mvara.t.thena siila.m, aviitikkama.t.thena siila.m. Yours truly, Han #91765 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anupubbasikkhaa nilovg Dear Han, Op 22-okt-2008, om 1:00 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > As regards the Buddha teaching these gradual training to the > persons who are ready for enlightenment, I only wonder whether > these teachings are useless to people like me who would never be > ready for enlightenment in this life. -------- N: All of us have accumulated ignorance for aeons, and therefore, why have expectations about enlightenment? What counts: just a little more understanding at this moment, day by day. As Alberto has said: it is up to to the dhammas, thus, it does not depend on 'us'. If we think in terms of 'people like me' it could easily be comparing, a form of conceit. All the teachings are useful, they cannot be useless. Even if we do not understand all, we should be grateful to understand just a little. Nina. #91766 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue .. Part II nilovg Dear Tep, Thank you very much. I like to read this. It shows that sila emcompasses the whole practice, up to arahatship. Nina. Op 22-okt-2008, om 1:27 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > This is the second part of "On Virtue" from the Path of > Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga). #91767 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:28 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 4, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, The subtle clinging after seeing, hearing and the other sense- impressions does not have the intensity of akusala kamma which produces akusala vipåka, it is different from gross clinging. However, it is not kusala and thus not beneficial. During our journey we first realized that we did not have many kusala cittas even while we were offering dåna to the monks; then it gradually began to dawn on us that there were many more akusala cittas than we ever thought, even while seeing a flower or a cup. The person who has attained enlightenment is “ujupatipanno”, he is upright, truthful, sincere. When we pay respect to the Sangha we recite the words: “Ujupatipanno bhagavato såvakasangho”, “Upright is the order of disciples of the Blessed One”. Do we understand these words? The word “ujupatipanno” may begin to have more meaning to us. Through right understanding of the present moment we become more sincere. We begin to realize that we are bound by clinging. In the teachings defilements have been classified in many different ways and each classification shows a different aspect. Defilements can be classified as “åsavas”, which is translated as cankers, poisons or intoxicants. There are four kinds of åsavas: the canker of sensuality (kåmåsava) the canker of becoming (bhåvåsava, clinging to rebirth) the canker of wrong view (ditthåsava) the canker of ignorance (avijjåsava) The “Visuddhimagga”( Ch XXII, 56) states that the åsavas are “exuding from unguarded sense-doors like water from cracks in a pot, in the sense of constant trickling”. The åsavas produce the suffering of the round of rebirth. Only the arahat has eradicated the åsavas. Thus, for us the åsavas keep on trickling from unguarded sense-doors, they are also trickling at this moment. Because of clinging we have to be reborn again and again. Before, we may not have understood that being born again and again is sorrowful, but now we may begin to see that we really are in a tangle because of our being in the cycle of birth and death. There was clinging since the first javana-cittas of our life arose. Actually, the first javana-cittas of every living being are lobha-múlacittas, cittas rooted in attachment. We read in the scriptures that people cultivated samatha to the degree of jhåna in order to have temporary release from sense- impressions and the akusala cittas which arise on account of them. Those who were skillful could have many moments of jhånacittas succeeding one another. But after they emerged from jhåna there were sense-impressions again. There was seeing again and clinging, and paying attention to shape and form with clinging, there was no end to akusala. Moreover, even the calm of jhåna could be an object of clinging. Jhåna cannot eradicate the åsavas and thus it cannot lead to true freedom. ******* Nina. #91768 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:31 pm Subject: Quote Survey nilovg Dear friends, When we like something we see we wish to see it all the time, but that is impossible. All conditioned dhammas, sankhåra dhammas, arise and then fall away, that is their nature. When a delicious flavour appears, attachment which is depending on the tongue arises. At that moment attachment through the eyes, the ears, the nose or the bodysense cannot arise. When odour appears and attachment to it arises, there cannot be attachment through the eyes, the ears, the tongue or the bodysense, since only one citta arises at a time. There cannot be the arising of two cittas at the same time. We all are attached to the things which appear alternately through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense and the mind-door. We are not attached just to colour, just to sound or just to one of the other sense objects, we are attached to all of them. The reason is that attachment to all the sense objects has been accumulated continuously, from the past to the present time, and it is accumulated on to the future. ----------- Nina. #91769 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:16 am Subject: Re: anupubbasikkhaa hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: All of us have accumulated ignorance for aeons, and therefore, why have expectations about enlightenment? What counts: just a little more understanding at this moment, day by day. As Alberto has said: it is up to to the dhammas, thus, it does not depend on 'us'. If we think in terms of 'people like me' it could easily be comparing, a form of conceit. All the teachings are useful, they cannot be useless. Even if we do not understand all, we should be grateful to understand just a little. Han: I wrote this to Jon for argument sake. For me I do not care a little bit what I will achieve or not achieve. I will not mind if I go to hell in next rebirth. Respectfully, Han #91770 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:34 am Subject: Re: Kusala or akusala? rjkjp1 -Dear Alberto This post is also related to mistaking aksula for kusala. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3543 Robert - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "alberto.spera" wrote: > > Hi, Akusala dhammas can be very hard to spot, especially in oneself, > for instance I like to think that my appreciation of Dhamma is kusala, > of course what else can it possibly be? Well, what about one of the 8 > lobha-mula citta? #91771 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Thank you for the response. I must admit that I am a little overwhelmed by its length. Rather than deal with all of it (references to UP, Jon and Robert K's posts) I want to just respond to the part that you wrote. After all, I am not writing directly to all of those other people, just you. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > ... > S: Concepts are just concepts, regardless of the type of concept. What I wrote above was an over-simplification, but there are concepts of realities, such as sounds, likes, dislikes. There are also concepts of what is unreal, such as trees and people, but while trees and people are unreal, they are clearly based on realities, on various namas and rupas which have been experienced. And then there are concepts, such as the purple flying elephants, which are easily understood as purely imaginary. James: So, it seems that you are saying that there are concepts just based on imagination and concepts based on "realities". So, it would only stand to reason that the concepts based on realities are more real than the concepts based on imagination. What do you think? Metta, James #91772 From: "alberto.spera" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kusala or akusala? alberto.spera Dear Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alberto, > Op 21-okt-2008, om 11:18 heeft alberto.spera het volgende geschreven: > > > But the I can study and > > consider properly the Dhamma until this basic characterstic which all > > dhammas share sinks in. I think that this is the most basic purpose of > > the Dhamma, and whether this works out or not quite yet is up to > > dhammas, which are anatta anyway, with no exeption. > -------- > N: It is up to the dhammas, that is a good reminder. I just heard a > tape, (track 10 A, f,K.K , 10/1/2007) that Kh. Sujin reminded me that > when I say: there is no Lodewijk, it is just thinking, and that it is > still self that thinks. But Pa~n~naa sees the clinging, she said. I haven't listened to that tape yet, but I understand how the notion of no me, no you, no Lodewijk can sound heartless, while the opposite would sound heartwarming, and also how the notion of no table and no chairs can sound silly, while the opposite would sound just as normal everyday experience. But by being the object of thinking I also understand that thougths are just the tips of icebergs, and that what makes them emerge is the unseen part under them, the dhammas. > Before we realize it, akusala comes in, also when considering the > Dhamma. Having had a (sort of) catholic upbringing (and I've read that you've got the same 'problem' :-) I tend to feel guilty when I detect akusala in my kamma (I've even seen akusala translated as sinful), but of course this is not according to the Dhamma (though I know that that moment is conditioning akusala-vipaka and other akusala-dhammas to arise). Alberto #91773 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:33 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries philofillet Hi Scott How's it going man? You'll be getting up soon. 4.30! (Cue Ali G) Respect! Below is the passage I cut our two long posts down to for study and further discussion on Saturday: > Ph: "...For example, if you take a look at Vism VIII, 8-41, the Eight > Ways of Recollecting Death...I would say these points at two ways of > understanding things, or more. This is just one example, I'm sure the > examples of the Buddha teaching at different levels are countless." > > Scott: Here is the commentary regarding the above, Vism VII 1: > > "Mindfulness (sati) itself is recollection (anussati) because it > arises again and again; or alternatively, the mindfulness (sati) that > is proper (anuruupa) for a clansman gone forth out of faith, since it > occurs only in those instances where it should occur, is > 'recollection' (anussati)...The recollection arisen inspired by death > is the recollection of death. This is a term for mindfulness with the > termination of the life faculty as its object." > > Scott: What do you make of this? How does it compare with your own > above stated ideas about the recollection of death? Which will you > adhere to? Ph: I looked at it a couple of times over the last few days and found myself in a fix. I can surmise that you will be sticking to a very strict and very momentary and very paramattha meaning of mindfulness, and that will put me in trouble, because I think the recollections of death (8 of them) in Vism. range from very ordinary mindfulness that is akin to memory to something much more fleeting. Judging from your exchange with TG, you don't accept sati that is akin to memory, so I don't know where to go, because it is *that* kind of sati that is the most important for me. I would refer to a teaching by Sayadaw U Silananda and a commentarial note by Bhikkhu Bodhi to make my point that the Buddha taught a wide range of meanings of sati, but you've said that you're not interested in the opinion of modern teachers, so that leaves me pretty impotent in the DSG debate room, since that's all I have. So I guess I'll drop it there, as usual. (I am the complete opposite from the tenacious Tep - always eager to drop discussions and get back to doing such things as watching old episodes of The Office on Youtube! I think I'm just not cut out for DSG, because I can't be bothered to do the hard thinking and necessary background reading to develop arguments. I'm more of a read-a-sutta-and-form-your-own-opinion-of- it-but-don't-forget-to-check-the-BB-commentarial-notes kind of guy, for better or worse. (Worse, probably.) At least I'm studying my Abhidhamma again these days. I hope we can find some kind of technical point that doesn't pertain too much too daily life issues to discuss someday, such as "Say Scott, what do you think of those citta processes that sometimes end with one less javana" kind of thing. Or, better yet, let's talk again by Skype again sometime. Not so much need to develop arguments there. Proverbial last word to you. Hope everything's going well for the Lukester. metta, phil p.s oh, thanks also for your speculative thoughts on the "being together in the Deva realm" sutta. I have my own speculation on it, of course, but I'll leave that. But thanks for what you took the time to write. #91774 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:19 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Good morning/night. Thanks for the reply. Regarding: Vism VII 1: "Mindfulness (sati) itself is recollection (anussati) because it arises again and again; or alternatively, the mindfulness (sati) that is proper (anuruupa) for a clansman gone forth out of faith, since it occurs only in those instances where it should occur, is 'recollection' (anussati)...The recollection arisen inspired by death is the recollection of death. This is a term for mindfulness with the termination of the life faculty as its object." Ph: "I looked at it a couple of times over the last few days and found myself in a fix. I can surmise that you will be sticking to a very strict and very momentary and very paramattha meaning of mindfulness, and that will put me in trouble, because I think the recollections of death (8 of them) in Vism. range from very ordinary mindfulness that is akin to memory to something much more fleeting. Judging from your exchange with TG, you don't accept sati that is akin to memory, so I don't know where to go, because it is *that* kind of sati that is the most important for me..." Scott: Sati is 'recollection' (anussati) but it is not 'memory' - this function, as I understand it is the purview of 'sa~n~naa'. So, in that sense I'm just trying to be precise about the function of the different mental factors. With TG, I was discussing the impossibility of sati without characteristic or function and the need to tie conditionality to the function and characterstics of realities - dhammas. 'Akin to memory' is fine with me, Phil. Ph: I would refer to a teaching by Sayadaw U Silananda and a commentarial note by Bhikkhu Bodhi to make my point that the Buddha taught a wide range of meanings of sati, but you've said that you're not interested in the opinion of modern teachers...always eager to drop discussions and get back to doing such things as watching old episodes of The Office on Youtube!" Scott: Great show! No, give the quote. I'm interested in the discussion. I can follow with some more stuff from Sammohavinodanii on sati I was reading at the soccer practise last night. Don't mind my opinions. I don't read much but the suttas or the commentaries. It's *my own* opinions I care least about - I just act like an opinionated boor. (Yours are next in order, followed by TG's, and then Herman's. Ha Ha.) Ph: "I think I'm just not cut out for DSG, because I can't be bothered to do the hard thinking and necessary background reading to develop arguments. I'm more of a read-a-sutta-and-form-your-own-opinion-of-it-but-don't-forget-to-check-the-BB-co\ mmentarial-notes kind of guy, for better or worse. (Worse, probably.)..." Scott: I find it interesting how 'DSG' is seen as like this literal place or actual 'school of thought'. I don't know, though, about the hyphenated appellation. I'm leery of the 'form-your-own-opinion-of-it' part. I'm sure I have opinions but they don't get me anywhere. I've seen others with their own opinions getting no where as well. I guess one could accuse me of being unable to 'think for myself' (as if that is somehow useful when it comes to learning the Dhamma) but I guess I don't care... I don't know how to handle it either, mind you, 'here at DSG'. I'm often finding that my own 'opinions' about others' opinions end discussions quickly. I don't mind stating my case strongly but its hard with all these opinions. I was reading in Sammohavinodanii (p. 161) and was struck by this little passage, regarding who should be able to comment on the meaning of things (in this case 'The Classification of the Dependent Origination'): "...Its meaning should be commented on by one who keeps with the circle of the Vibhajjavaadins, who does not misrepresent the teachers, who does not launch out into his own opinions, who does not quarrel with others' opinions; who does not distort suttas, who is in agreement with the Vinaya, who has regard for the principle authorities, who illustrates the Law, who takes up the meaning and describes the same meaning refashioning it by means of other presentations..." Scott: That rules me out. Ha ha. I mean its just a discussion group here, right? The Dhamma is the main thing. I like the commentaries because I can assume that the writers fit the above description. I can learn what they had to say, I don't have to bother getting off track with my own opinions - theories, make-believe - whatever. I wonder about the 'does not quarrel with others' opinions' part. When is 'discussion' 'quarreling'? I've often reached an impasse vis-a-vis discussing stuff on the list. I think I take what I read, for the most part, as 'a view', not considering or dealing so much with 'the person' having the view. This would be due to Ph: "...At least I'm studying my Abhidhamma again these days. I hope we can find some kind of technical point that doesn't pertain too much too daily life issues to discuss someday, such as "Say Scott, what do you think of those citta processes that sometimes end with one less javana" kind of thing. Or, better yet, let's talk again by Skype again sometime. Not so much need to develop arguments there. Proverbial last word to you. Hope everything's going well for the Lukester." Scott: Luke's blood sugars/insulin are sort of evening out, indoor soccer season has begun and I'm happy he can still play hard at the game he loves - not to mention thrash away on the drum kit (new Fender Precision bass has me practising more - wilful practise ha ha). I hope we can bridge to daily life such that the 'technical' points are more meaningful. I still think, despite no belief in wilful 'practice' (bass guitar aside), that development of dhammas occurs and I'd like to keep talking about 'where the rubber hits the road'. Later, man. Sincerely, Scott. #91775 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:26 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Now I'm doing the post and re-post thing again. Is it you? "...This would be due to..." Scott: I have no idea what I was going to say with the above. I think it was going to be a quip about 'post-Abhidhamma study psychopathy syndrome' - you know, 'no persons-no qualms-no siila' - remember that misrepresentation? No matter. Just a meaningless opinion and dumb joke... Sincerely, Scott. #91776 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:22 am Subject: Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part II. visitorfromt... Dear Han, - Thank you again for the Pali help. I always use your Pali inserts at the SariputtaDhamma Website whenever I can find them. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Here are the Pali inserts. > #91777 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:44 am Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries visitorfromt... Hi Phil (and Scott), - Your following discussion with Scott is good for me to ponder and tone down "the tenacity" a few notches. >Ph (talking to Scott): Judging from your exchange with TG, you don't accept sati that is akin to memory, so I don't know where to go, because it is *that* kind of sati that is the most important for me. I would refer to a teaching by Sayadaw U Silananda and a commentarial note by Bhikkhu Bodhi to make my point that the Buddha taught a wide range of meanings of sati, but you've said that you're not interested in the opinion of modern teachers, so that leaves me pretty impotent in the DSG debate room, since that's all I have. So I guess I'll drop it there, as usual. (I am the complete opposite from the tenacious Tep - ... T: Nobody is able to avoid impotency in the DSG debate room, I tell you. By imposing the rule and repeatedly denying (directly, or indirectly) whatever you have to say, your hands are tied behind your back and they are in complete control. ;-) Since you'll never win there, maybe it is wiser just not to get involved at the beginning. >Ph (continuing): I think I'm just not cut out for DSG, because I can't be bothered to do the hard thinking and necessary background reading to develop arguments. I'm more of a read-a-sutta-and-form- your-own-opinion-of-it-but-don't-forget-to-check-the-BB-commentarial- notes kind of guy, for better or worse. (Worse, probably.) T: Why bother to do hard thinking based on the necessary background readings, since they are going to deny (or just ignore)your findings anyway? Keep the fruits of the Dhamma study for yourself, I tell you. >Ph : At least I'm studying my Abhidhamma again these days. T: I believe the best of both the Suttanta and Abhidhamma pitakas is in the Patisambhidamagga (Path of Discrimination). Tep === #91778 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. sarahprocter... Hi James, It's good to be chatting to you again:-). I know we often disagree, but I still miss you when you're not around. --- On Wed, 22/10/08, buddhatrue wrote: >Thank you for the response. <....>I want to just respond to the part that you wrote. After all, I am not writing directly to all of those other people, just you. ... S: Quite understood and that's fine, of course. --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, sarah abbott wrote: > ... > S: Concepts are just concepts, regardless of the type of concept. <...> .... >James: So, it seems that you are saying that there are concepts just based on imagination and concepts based on "realities". So, it would only stand to reason that the concepts based on realities are more real than the concepts based on imagination. What do you think? .... S: Of course, if there were no realities at all - namas and rupas - there'd not even be the 'concepts just based on imagination'. For example, when we're dreaming, there are all sorts of strange ideas. However, if there were no proliferating about what is experienced through the senses, there wouldn't be even these strangest of dreams. As for the concepts of realities, such as concepts of dhammas such as seeing and visible object, which we discuss all the time here, the concepts are still concepts, but they are representing or 'revealing realities. So this is why we say that pariyatti (understanding of dhammas conceptually)leads to patipatti (understanding of dhammas directly, as realities). When it comes to concepts of trees and people, there are of course underlying rupas (in the case of trees) and underlying namas and rupas (in the case of people) which are experienced and which are a condition for the ideas and memories of trees and people. However, I don't think we can go as far as saying some concepts are 'more real' than others. Generally speaking they are just different types of concepts, but I do understand what you mean. Thanks again for helping me to reflect on this topic. I hope I've answered the question. Metta, Sarah ======= #91779 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:03 am Subject: Enter The Abhidhammika! Re: Step-by-step method for development of Noble Path abhidhammika Dear Jon, Sarah, Nina, Scott D, Mike N, Tep, Howard, Alex, Paul, Herman How are you? Jon wrote: "Well if you don't know how the term was used, how can you be so sure there's something to be prosecuted? ... It seems to me you've brought a charge that you now realise can't be proved without getting my further input ;-))" Suan answered: The term `prosecution' was your own choice of word, not mine. You wrote the following in replying to Tep. "The burden of proof is always on the prosecution. Except of course in an inquisition (where it's "guilty until proved innocent")." So, I happened to write the following: "Proper and fair `prosecution' could take place only when the defendant's usage of the terms were understood as intended. :-)" Please note that I wrote `prosecution', not prosecution, in the above statement to indicate that it was not my wording. And, I was not conducting an inquisition, either. This legalese was also your own choice of word. What I was offering is merely the process of Vibhajjavaada treatment to your following claims: "There is no such thing as a step-by-step method or practice for the development of the path." … "The path is developed by the gradual accrual of the understanding of dhammas, and this is not something that occurs by virtue of the "doing" of specific things." As I mentioned in my second message in this thread: "My role as an Abhidhammika on this occasion is to subject Buddhist- sounding statements to Vibhajjavaada treatment, thereby exposing their true identity." As Vibhajjavaada is the process of analysis, the first step in this process is to ask the statement makers to clarify or define the terms in their statements. This step of analysis is known as `padasodhana' in Abhidhamma Pi.taka. Padasodhana means cleaning or cleansing of the terms or clarification of terms. Jon, as the statements were made by you, it was your responsibility to clarify the terms you used in them while it was the responsibility of the abhidhammika as an analyser to request you to cooperate in answering the questions regarding your use of those terms. So, your following protest was out of place and reflected your misunderstanding of the mechanism of analysis. "Well if you don't know how the term was used, how can you be so sure there's something to be prosecuted? ... It seems to me you've brought a charge that you now realise can't be proved without getting my further input ;-))" Jon, you also wrote: "By "dhammas" I mean citta, cetasika and rupa, or the khandhas, or the ayatanas, or the dhatus." Thank you for the above answer. But, I did not expect it. I was expecting the answer in plain English. Please keep in mind that there may be new comers to Buddhism who could find Pali terms somewhat puzzling. Therefore, I wonder if you could summon the right effort to re- answer the meaning of dhammas in plain English. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #91780 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Quote Survey. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and James) - In a message dated 10/22/2008 1:35:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi James (& Howard), --- On Wed, 22/10/08, buddhatrue wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: As you know, there are many different kinds of concepts - those based on realities (such as trees and people) and those which aren't (such as purple flying elephants). > J:> This is very interesting. I don't think I have ever read you use this distinction before. What exactly is the difference between these "concepts"? Is one more real than the other, or something else? ... S: Concepts are just concepts, regardless of the type of concept. What I wrote above was an over-simplification, but there are concepts of realities, such as sounds, likes, dislikes. There are also concepts of what is unreal, such as trees and people, but while trees and people are unreal, they are clearly based on realities, on various namas and rupas which have been experienced. =================================== It is not written on tablets somewhere what a God-given definition of 'real' is, Sarah. It might, therefore, be useful, I think, to use terminology like "composites" or "mere aggregations" when speaking of such things as trees and people. Also, there is a legitimate sense in which rupas, which DO change according to the commentaries, are also "unreal," and namas, which include operations, also are not static, and not any of conditioned phenomena have independent status. The relevant part of the dictionary entry for 'real' is the following: Main Entry: 1re·al Function: adjective Pronunciation: 're(-&)l, 'ri(-&)l Etymology: Middle English, real, relating to things (in law), from Middle French, from Medieval Latin & Late Latin; Medieval Latin realis relating to things (in law), from Late Latin, real, from Latin res thing, fact; akin to Sanskrit rayi property 1 : of or relating to fixed, permanent, or immovable things (as lands or tenements) 2 a : not artificial, fraudulent, illusory, or apparent Now, according to part 1, concepts as you view them are actually more "real" than the conditioned dhammas! LOL! Of course, I disagree with the deduction that people are concepts, and concepts are unchanging, hence people are unchanging. And you should too, for, of course, concepts (i.e., our ideas) DO change, and also, people DO change. Actual people are changing composites of phenomena, that are not individual phenomena. As composites, they are real in the sense of unimagined. There are, however, no individual phenomena that are persons. SUCH truly do NOT exist. They are unreal and only imagined. As for part (2 a) of the definition, *all* things we experience are merely apparent, and to the extent that we *think* about them and label them and view them as self-existent entities, they are all artificial, fraudulent, and illusory. In fact, the Buddha often talked of paramattha dhammas in this way, as in the Uraga Sutta, where he says "This is all unreal," and very clearly in the Phena Sutta, where he teaches the following about paramattha dhammas, not trees and people: " Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately." As a separate, self-existent entity, NOTHING is real! With metta, Howard #91781 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Phil) - In a message dated 10/22/2008 7:19:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Sati is 'recollection' (anussati) but it is not 'memory' - this function, as I understand it is the purview of 'sa~n~naa'. ============================ I think that is a valid distinction. I view sati as a remembering, in the sense of "keeping in mind," to stay present. So, it is a monitoring of the mind, a not forgetting to stay present with what is arising "right now" rather than getting lost in thought, imagination, excitement, or sloth & torpor. That staying present, free of the interlopers mentioned, as I see it, is critical for wisdom to arise. With metta, Howard #91782 From: "alberto.spera" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:12 am Subject: Re: Kusala or akusala? alberto.spera Dear Robert, thanks for the good tip - Alberto (msg #3543 From: Gayan Karunaratne) ................ written in 1947 In the preface the venerable says.. "There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." "These arise in a mind that has developed a certain disliking towards akusalas. The akusala dhammas disguise themselves according to the mind's 'tendency' or mentality. (as the mud gets the shape of the object that pressed onto it.)" In the book, the venerable describes the dhammas namely mentioned in the atthakatha, and describes more dhammas using his knowledge in the abhidhamma. First , the ones from the atthakatha... 1. apatikkulasagnamukhena kamacchando vangcethi One develops the apatikkula sanna -> Looking at every living or non-living object in the same perspective. Whether the dhathu in his body, in an alien body, rocks, trees, young body, decayed body, ... start to look the same. He has no disgust in the things that are disgusting to others. (phlegm,urine etc...) They look just collections of dhathus to him. He will attend to the ones in need of help, without disgusted of the filth. But Kamacchanda will disguise itself as apatikkulasanna. One has liking to the praise, profits etc .. gained by helping people. (But he knows this kamacchada is a bad quality in him) When theres a person in need, and others do not reach him beacause of the patikula things associated with helping, theres a chance that in the former's mind the kamacchanda will arise, and he helps the person without feeling any disgust. But he thinks that apatikkula sanna has arose. It is indeed real hard to distinguish the kusala from the akusala. The only catch is to see whether this 'apatikkula sanna' is still there when the praises and profits are not associated with the helping. Another occasion is, a person may not feel disgust of the phlegm, urine etc (you know the lot) of another person he has some raaga for. The person knows that raaga is 'bad' and apatikkula sanna is 'good', he tends to think that what he has is the apatikkula sanna. But what he 'gives in' (and gladly develops) is none other than kamacchanda. As above the catch is to see whether this 'apatikkula sanna' prevails with regarding a person who he has no raaga for. 2. patikkulasanna pathirupena vyapado vancethi One develops patikkula sanna with regarding to dhathus. (this helps to fight with excessive Raga Whatever regarded beautiful in the normal sense, appears filthy to him. (eg. the glowing teeth of a pretty person will look as melon seeds glued to the mouth of an empty clay pot) But vyapada will disguise as patikkulasanna. One knows vyapada is 'bad' and knows tha theres a good thing called patikkula sanna. He will sometimes develop the raw vyapada, thinking that what he has is patikkula sanna. [story of sour grapes..] so checking is needed. to be continued... #91783 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kusala or akusala? nilovg Dear Alberto, Op 22-okt-2008, om 11:23 heeft alberto.spera het volgende geschreven: > I haven't listened to that tape yet, but I understand how the notion > of no me, no you, no Lodewijk can sound heartless, while the opposite > would sound heartwarming, and also how the notion of no table and no > chairs can sound silly, while the opposite would sound just as normal > everyday experience. > But by being the object of thinking I also understand that thougths > are just the tips of icebergs, and that what makes them emerge is the > unseen part under them, the dhammas. -------- N: True, if there were no dhammas, realities, one could not think of persons. What seems heartwarming has to be rightly understood. Is what we call heartwarming the truth? The citta that thinks about persons has to be known. And I was glad to read the quote about the vancaka (deceiving) dhammas: what seems so good and noble is not kusala in reality. We like the company of other people, and we are sad when we lose dear ones. The reason of sadness is clinging to self, to our own pleasant feeling we derive from the company of others. Clinging to self is most of the time the cause of problems, anxiety, disturbance. --------- > > N: > Before we realize it, akusala comes in, also when considering the > > Dhamma. > > A: Having had a (sort of) catholic upbringing (and I've read that > you've > got the same 'problem' :-) I tend to feel guilty when I detect akusala > in my kamma (I've even seen akusala translated as sinful), but of > course this is not according to the Dhamma (though I know that that > moment is conditioning akusala-vipaka and other akusala-dhammas to > arise). ------- N: When we have aversion about our own akusala, it is again: clinging to an image of self we like to be perfect, and when we see akusala, we dislike the flaws in that image. But actually, we should be grateful to see our akusala thanks to the Dhamma. It means that we are learning. ----- Nina. #91784 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:34 pm Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries visitorfromt... Hi, all - --- upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Scott (and Phil) - > > In a message dated 10/22/2008 7:19:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > scduncan@... writes: > > Sati is 'recollection' (anussati) but it is not 'memory' - this > function, as I understand it is the purview of 'sa~n~naa'. > ============================ > I think that is a valid distinction. I view sati as a remembering, in > the sense of "keeping in mind," to stay present. So, it is a monitoring of the > mind, a not forgetting to stay present with what is arising "right now" > rather than getting lost in thought, imagination, excitement, or sloth & torpor. > That staying present, free of the interlopers mentioned, as I see it, is > critical for wisdom to arise. > > With metta, > Howard > "And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering and able to call to mind even things that were done and said long ago. He remains focused on the body in and of itself -ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in and of themselves...the mind in and of itself...mental qualities in and of themselves- ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness." []SN 48.10 Indriya-vibhanga Sutta] Tep === #91785 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Scott, and all) - In a message dated 10/22/2008 3:34:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: > I think that is a valid distinction. I view sati as a remembering, in > the sense of "keeping in mind," to stay present. So, it is a monitoring of the > mind, a not forgetting to stay present with what is arising "right now" > rather than getting lost in thought, imagination, excitement, or sloth & torpor. > That staying present, free of the interlopers mentioned, as I see it, is > critical for wisdom to arise. > > With metta, > Howard > "And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering and able to call to mind even things that were done and said long ago. He remains focused on the body in and of itself -ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in and of themselves...the mind in and of itself...mental qualities in and of themselves- ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness." []SN 48.10 Indriya-vibhanga Sutta] -------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for this sutta. It does seem self-contradictory, though, does it not? On the one hand there is said "There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering and able to call to mind even things that were done and said long ago," which is certainly not a matter of staying with what is arising right now. On the other hand, there is said "He remains focused on the body in and of itself -ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in and of themselves...the mind in and of itself...mental qualities in and of themselves- ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world." I find this to be a conundrum, and I just don't know what to make of it. Do you, Tep? Do you, Scott? Anyone else? Is this sutta an amalgam pasted together by folks other than the Buddha? What's up here? Any takers? ----------------------------------------------- Tep =============================== With metta, Howard #91786 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:14 pm Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries kenhowardau Hi Howard and all, --------- <. . .> H: > Thank you for this sutta. It does seem self-contradictory, though, does it not? On the one hand there is said "There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering and able to call to mind even things that were done and said long ago," which is certainly not a matter of staying with what is arising right now. On the other hand, there is said "He remains focused on the body in and of itself -ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in and of themselves...the mind in and of itself...mental qualities in and of themselves- ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world." I find this to be a conundrum, and I just don't know what to make of it. Do you, Tep? Do you, Scott? Anyone else? Is this sutta an amalgam pasted together by folks other than the Buddha? What's up here? Any takers? -------- I think what is up here is the same thing that leads people to mistakenly believe that Right Concentration (of the Eightfold Path) is ordinary jhana meditation. The question in this case was "and what is the faculty of mindfulness?" There are many forms of mindfulness ranging from ordinary everyday mindfulness (of concepts) - that can occur even when there is no knowledge of the Dhamma - right up Right Mindfulness (of present parramattha dhammas) belonging to the Eightfold Path. But they are all the same cetasika - sati. Similarly, when addressing the question "and what is right concentration?" the Buddha usually explains there are many forms of kusala concentration - including both ordinary jhana concentration and supramundane Path Concentration - and they are all the same cetasika: samadhi. So I think the point in this sutta (as in the Satipatthana Sutta) is that all phenomena - even those of the Eightfold Path - are just conditioned dhammas. Ken H #91787 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/22/2008 5:14:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard and all, --------- <. . .> H: > Thank you for this sutta. It does seem self-contradictory, though, does it not? On the one hand there is said "There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering and able to call to mind even things that were done and said long ago," which is certainly not a matter of staying with what is arising right now. On the other hand, there is said "He remains focused on the body in and of itself -ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in and of themselves...the mind in and of itself...mental qualities in and of themselves- ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world." I find this to be a conundrum, and I just don't know what to make of it. Do you, Tep? Do you, Scott? Anyone else? Is this sutta an amalgam pasted together by folks other than the Buddha? What's up here? Any takers? -------- I think what is up here is the same thing that leads people to mistakenly believe that Right Concentration (of the Eightfold Path) is ordinary jhana meditation. The question in this case was "and what is the faculty of mindfulness?" There are many forms of mindfulness ranging from ordinary everyday mindfulness (of concepts) - that can occur even when there is no knowledge of the Dhamma - right up Right Mindfulness (of present parramattha dhammas) belonging to the Eightfold Path. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That may be so, Ken, but I don't think it is the party line. If I'm not mistaken, sati, at least as it is viewed by KS and admirers, must be mindfulness of paramattha dhammas. Actually, it happens that I pretty much concur with that view that mindfulness is being present with what *actually* is happening at the moment, and that is always a paramattha dhamma. When remembering something is what is happening at the moment, that operation is a cetasika, and mindfulness will prevent one from getting lost in the conceived memory and will in fact enable being aware of what is actually going on, namely a specific recollecting. When thinking arises, mindfulness is being present with that operation of thinking, forestalling getting lost in though and enabling the awareness of the thinking, which is what is actually going on (as opposed to what is thought about). However, I agree that the initial part of the sutta that speaks of "remembering and able to call to mind even things that were done and said long ago" does not go in that direction of mindfulness being the staying present with what is actually happening in the moment. And I still find that as contradicting what then follows. The synopsis at the beginning of the Satipatthana Sutta is as follows: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four? "There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ----------------------------------------------------- But they are all the same cetasika - sati. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: If they are, then since they are so different, identifying them all as "sati" is *certainly* a matter of convention, which makes sati a conventional operation! --------------------------------------------------- Similarly, when addressing the question "and what is right concentration?" the Buddha usually explains there are many forms of kusala concentration - including both ordinary jhana concentration and supramundane Path Concentration - and they are all the same cetasika: samadhi. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: :-) I sure see the barrier between conventional and ultimate rapidly crumbling. Reminds me of the Berlin wall! --------------------------------------------------- So I think the point in this sutta (as in the Satipatthana Sutta) is that all phenomena - even those of the Eightfold Path - are just conditioned dhammas. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Man! That sure strikes me as a non sequitur. ---------------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================== With metta, Howard #91788 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:00 pm Subject: Enter The Abhidhammika! Re: Step-by-step method for development of Noble Path visitorfromt... Hi Suan (& Jon), - Most people would agree with you that it is fair to request someone to clarify certain terms in his statements. But Jon already seems to have some trouble accepting your request. > >Jon: "Well if you don't know how the term was used, how can you be so sure there's something to be prosecuted? >Suan : Please keep in mind that there may be new comers to Buddhism who could find Pali terms somewhat puzzling. Therefore, I wonder if you could summon the right effort (kusala) to re-answer the meaning of dhammas in plain English. T: To "summon" an effort in order to "do" something is against Jon's belief. For example, in message #91434, he wrote: "I don't think there's anything that says that kusala cannot arise without there first being the conventional kind of preparatory effort or striving that I mentioned". So I can predict that even your simple and fair request to Jon is going to encounter a winding uphill battle. With sympathy, Tep === #91789 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:02 pm Subject: Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries visitorfromt... Hello Howard (Scott, Nina, Alex, Han), - I presented this very relevant SN 48.10 sutta quote with no comments or "volunteered" interpretation. Thank you for responding with questions for further discussion. ========================= > >"And what is the faculty of mindfulness? There is the case where amonk, a noble disciple, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering and able to call to mind even things that were doneand said long ago. > >He remains focused on the body in and of itself -ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in and of themselves...the mind in and of itself...mental qualities in and of themselves- ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. This is called the faculty of mindfulness." [SN 48.10 Indriya-vibhanga Sutta] -------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for this sutta. It does seem self-contradictory, though, does it not? On the one hand there is said "There is the case where a monk, a noble disciple, is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering and able to call to mind even things that were done and said long ago," which is certainly not a matter of staying with what is arising right now. On the other hand, there is said "He remains focused on the body in and of itself -ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in and of themselves...the mind in and of itself...mental qualities in and of themselves- ardent, alert, and mindful- putting aside greed and distress with reference to the world." I find this to be a conundrum, and I just don't know what to make of it. Do you, Tep? Do you, Scott? Anyone else? Is this sutta an amalgam pasted together by folks other than the Buddha? What's up here? Any takers? ----------------------------------------------- T: No, it is not a conundrum or self-contradiction to me, Howard. Please allow me to offer you a thought on how I read this sutta. The faculty of mindfulness (satindriya) consists of two related functions of mindfulness, i.e. recollection or "remembering and recall" without difficulty, AND establishing 'sati' in the four frames of reference (or foundations) as defined by MN 10 and SN 47.40(Analysis of the Frames of Reference). I think the ability to recollect precisely and quickly supports the establishment of mindfulness in the four frames of reference here & now. In SN 48.50 the Chief Disciple briefly related saddha to the faculty of mindfulness and faculty of concentration as follows: "With a noble disciple who has conviction, who is resolute and persistent, it may be expected that he will be mindful, highly meticulous, remembering and able to call to mind even things that were done and said long ago. Whatever mindfulness he has, is his faculty of mindfulness. "With a noble disciple who has conviction, who is resolute and persistent, and whose mindfulness is established ('tuned'), it may be expected that- making it his object to let- he will attain concentration and singleness of mind. Whatever concentration he has, is his faculty of concentration." The arahant Sariputta said that saddha supported the first function of satindriya, and the second function of satindriya supported samadhi. There is no conflict. Tep === #91790 From: "visitorfromtexas" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:39 pm Subject: Re: Kusala or akusala? visitorfromt... Hi Alberto, Nina - > > A: I tend to feel guilty when I detect akusala in my kamma (I've even seen akusala translated as sinful), but of course this is not according to the Dhamma (though I know that that moment is conditioning akusala-vipaka and other akusala-dhammas to arise). >N: But actually, we should be grateful to see our akusala thanks to the Dhamma. It means that we are learning. ................... T: When we "see" an arisen kusala or akusala, we should just observe it with mindful awareness. It is the right Dhamma when there are no 'we' who learn or appreciate. "When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Malunkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Tep === #91791 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Talking with Scott - questioning the commentaries kenhowardau Hi Howard, --------- KH: > > There are many forms of mindfulness ranging from ordinary everyday mindfulness (of concepts) - that can occur even when there is no knowledge of the Dhamma - right up Right Mindfulness (of present parramattha dhammas) belonging to the Eightfold Path. > > Howard: > That may be so, Ken, but I don't think it is the party line. ---------- I am pretty sure it is: I think the commissars would approve. :-) ------------------ H: > If I'm not mistaken, sati, at least as it is viewed by KS and admirers, must be mindfulness of paramattha dhammas. ------------------ No, that is not the message I get. When there is metta, for example, the object of consciousness is a concept, isn't it? Sati is present in every moment of metta (as in all kusala consciousness). So, sati can experience concepts as well as dhammas. ------------------------- H: > Actually, it happens that I pretty much concur with that view that mindfulness is being present with what *actually* is happening at the moment, and that is always a paramattha dhamma. -------------------------- I would say mindfulness (sati) was aware (conscious of) of its object (aramanna). Checking with my copy of "Cetasikas" I see that sati is "heedful, non-forgetful, of kusala." That doesn't mean the arammana of sati is necessarily kusala, it just means sati experiences the arammana while being non-forgetful of kusala. -------------------------- H: > When remembering something is what is happening at the moment, that operation is a cetasika, and mindfulness will prevent one from getting lost in the conceived memory and will in fact enable being aware of what is actually going on, namely a specific recollecting. -------------------------- Maybe so, but all of that sort of thing will happen in the same moment. Any enabling of kusala consciousness will occur concurrently with the kusala consciousness it enables. ------------------------ H: > When thinking arises, mindfulness is being present with that operation of thinking, forestalling getting lost in thought and enabling the awareness of the thinking, which is what is actually going on (as opposed to what is thought about). ------------------------ That sounds more like the function of samadhi (one pointedness). But, in any case, I am pretty sure consciousness [with or without sati] of thinking will occur only when thinking is the arammana (object of consciousness). I remember you said recently that, in your opinion, consciousness (citta and cetasikas) could be aware of their co-arising feeling (vedana) even before vedana could be taken as an actual object of consciousness. But, as you know, I disagree. ------------------------------------ H: > However, I agree that the initial part of the sutta that speaks of "remembering and able to call to mind even things that were done and said long ago" does not go in that direction of mindfulness being the staying present with what is actually happening in the moment. And I still find that as contradicting what then follows. <. . .> ------------------------------------ My understanding of the texts is less complicated. Sati can experience thoughts of long-ago events (concepts), or it can experience presently arisen dhammas. As I said, it is the same cetasika in both cases. ---------------------------------------------- KH: > > But they are all the same cetasika - sati. > > Howard: > If they are, then since they are so different, identifying them all as "sati" is *certainly* a matter of convention, which makes sati a conventional operation! ----------------------------------------------- I would say they differ in their intensity, and in the nature of their arammana. However, in all cases they perform the same function (of experiencing their arammana with non-forgetfulness of kusala). ------------------------------ <. . .> H: > Howard: :-) I sure see the barrier between conventional and ultimate rapidly crumbling. Reminds me of the Berlin wall! ------------------------------- I agree in a way. There are always only dhammas. Concepts are never anything more than mere designations. The more we understand that the less likely we will be to get *caught out* by mere designations. (They won't have to act as barriers to right understanding.) ------------- KH: > > So I think the point in this sutta (as in the Satipatthana Sutta) is that all phenomena - even those of the Eightfold Path - are just conditioned dhammas. > > Howard: > Man! That sure strikes me as a non sequitur. ------------- How so? I would have thought it was entirely sequitur. :-) Ken H #91792 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:12 pm Subject: Enter The Abhidhammika! Re: Step-by-step method for development of Noble Path kenhowardau Hi Tep, ---------- Tep (to Suan): > Most people would agree with you that it is fair to request someone to clarify certain terms in his statements. ----------- More to the point, most people will agree there is a lot of opposition at DSG to the view that the path is followed only when there are conditions for the path to be followed. There is a lot of opposition to the view that Magga citta arises purely by conditions and not by free will. -------------------- T: > But Jon already seems to have some trouble accepting your request. --------------------- If you are fair, Tep, you will concede that Jon's messages to DSG do nothing else. Over the years they have all explained, in one way or another, how the Path is developed gradually - as right understanding of conditioned dhammas develops gradually. There is no sudden, magic fix. There are no rituals that can be performed in order to circumvent the way of conditioned dhammas. --------------------------------- <. . .> > > Suan : Please keep in mind that there may be new comers to Buddhism who could find Pali terms somewhat puzzling. Therefore, I wonder if you could summon the right effort (kusala) to re-answer the meaning of dhammas in plain English. > > Tep: > To "summon" an effort in order to "do" something is against Jon's belief. ---------------------------------- It is true Jon does not believe in a controlling entity. But I think you will have to agree in this case that an effort to explain has nonetheless been made - regularly and over a long period. Such are conditions! :-) ------------------- T: > For example, in message #91434, he wrote: "I don't think there's anything that says that kusala cannot arise without there first being the conventional kind of preparatory effort or striving that I mentioned". So I can predict that even your simple and fair request to Jon is going to encounter a winding uphill battle. With sympathy, Tep ------------------- As I said at the beginning, the matter at issue here is really the efficacy of formal vipassana meditation. You and Suan are affronted by the suggestion that Dhamma practice is unlike any other practice - that it is purely a matter of having right understanding now. It's all in the texts. Jon is not adding anything. You and Suan desperately want to believe Jon is adding something and you want other people to believe that too. That is because you are committed to formal vipassana meditation. You think you have too much to lose. Please correct me if I am wrong. Ken H #91793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:36 pm Subject: Sri Lanka Revisited, Ch 4, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Vipassanå is exclusively the Buddha’s teaching and this leads to the eradication of defilements; it can eventually liberate us from clinging and thus from rebirth. Vipassanå is the development of right understanding of any reality which appears now, even if it is akusala. We read in the “Kindred Sayings”(IV, Salåyatanavagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, Ch II, §70, Upavåna) that the venerable Upavåna asked the Buddha: “ ‘People speak of the Visible Dhamma (sanditthiko). In how far, Lord, is the Dhamma visible here and now, is of immediate result, invites to come and see, is onward-leading and to be directly experienced, each for himself, by the wise?’ ‘Herein, Upavåna, a monk, having seen visible object with the eye, experiences the object and his attachment to it. Of the attachment to visible object which is present in him he knows: I have attachmet to visible object. If a monk, having seen visible object with the eye, experiences visible object and his attachment to it and knows that attachment to visible object is present in him, in so far, Upavåna, is the Dhamma visible here and now, is of immediate result, invites to come and see, is onward-leading, and directly experienced, each for himself, by the wise....’ ” The same is said on account of the other doorways. We then read about the monk who has no attachment to the objects which are experienced through the six doors and knows this. Since this is so, the Dhamma is visible here and now. There is not always opportunity for dåna and síla, but there is an opportunity for vipassanå at any moment, no matter where we are and what we are doing. We usually waste our life with clinging and we do not even realize this. If there is a short moment of awareness of a nåma or rúpa which appears understanding of the realities of our life can grow. Sometimes there are conditions for calm. For example, we may see the benefit of loving kindness for other people and then there can be moments of calm, moments without lobha, dosa or moha. Calm can then be known as only a conditioned reality, not self. Calm has arisen because of its own conditions and it cannot stay, it falls away again. Khun Sujin reminded us not to try to make it stay: “It does not matter when it is gone and then another reality which appears can be known. It does not matter what appears. This 'it does not matter' is very difficult, since it usually does matter to us. We attach importance to calm. But when we want to make calm stronger and stronger and we want to have it stay longer and longer, there is no way to know it as it is, no way.” Our clinging to self prevents us from seeing the true nature of calm: only a conditioned reality. If calm is known as a reality which has arisen because of its own conditions and which does not stay we do not try to hold on to it and we are not disappointed when it is gone. ****** Nina #91794 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:42 pm Subject: Quote Survey nilovg Dear friends, Vedanå cetasika, feeling, is the basis of clinging and clinging is very persistent. If one does not know the truth about vedanå cetasika one cannot abandon the view that feeling is self. The understanding of the nature of vedanå cetasika is a supporting condition for sati to begin to be aware of the characteristic of feeling. If one does not understand what feeling is, one will not notice that feeling is reality; that it arises time and again in our daily life, just as the other dhammas which appear through the sense- doors and the mind-door. These dhammas can only appear because citta arises and experiences them, and each citta is accompanied by feeling. We should remember that if there were no feeling on account of what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and experienced through the bodysense, there would not be anxiety, akusala dhamma would not arise. However, since feeling arises, there is clinging to feeling, holding on to it. One wants to obtain for oneself things which can condition pleasant feeling. Thus, akusala dhammas continue to arise, but one does not notice this. All dhammas are anattå, nobody can prevent feeling cetasika from arising. No matter what type of citta arises, it must be accompanied by feeling cetasika which feels on account of the object which is experienced at that moment. Now, at this very moment, there must be some kind of feeling, be it indifferent feeling, bodily pleasant feeling, painful feeling, (mental) pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling. The study of the Dhamma is not merely knowledge of names and numbers, the aim of the study is knowing the characteristics of realities, thus also of feeling which arises now. There may not yet be awareness of the characteristic of the feeling of this moment, but we should remember that the feeling of this moment is a reality which has arisen and fallen away already. If one does not know the true characteristic of feeling, one is bound to take pleasant and painful bodily feeling, mental pleasant and unpleasant feeling and indifferent feeling for self. ****** Nina. #91795 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:57 pm Subject: Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part II. hantun1 Dear Tep, I have listed the (18) contemplations and insights as mentioned in your post: (1) anicca-anupassanaa (contemplation of impermanence): nicca-sa~n~naa (perception of permanence) (2) dukkha-anupassanaa (contemplation of pain): sukha-sa~n~naa (perception of pleasure) (3) anatta-anupassanaa (contemplation of not self): atta-sa~n~naa (perception of self) (4) nibbida-anupassanaa (contemplation of dispassion): nandi (delight) (5) viraaga-anupassanaa (contemplation of fading away): raaga (greed) (6) nirodha-anupassanaa (contemplation of cessation): samudaya (arising) (7) pa.tinissagga-anupassanaa (contemplation of renunciation): aadaana (grasping) (8) khaya-anupassanaa (contemplation of destruction): ghana-sa~n~naa (perception of compactness) (9) vaya-anupassanaa (contemplation of fall): aayuuhana (accumulation) (10) vipari.naama-anupassanaa (contemplation of change): dhuva-sa~n~naa (perception of lastingness) (11) animitta-anupassanaa (contemplation of signless): nimitta (sign) (12) appa.nihita-anupassanaa (contemplation of the desireless): pa.nidhi (desire) (13) su~n~nata-anupassanaa (contemplation of voidness): abhinivesa (misinterpretation) (14) adhipa~n~naa-dhamma-vipassanaa (insight into ideas which is the higher understanding): saaraadaana-abhinivesa (misinterpretation due to greed) (15) yathaabhuuta~naa.na-dassana (correct knowledge and seeing): sammoha-abhinivesa (misinterpretation due to confusion) (16) aadiinava-anupassanaa (contemplation of danger): aalaya-abhinivesa (misinterpretation due to reliance) (17) pa.tisaâ€?nkha-anupassanaa (contemplation of reflection): appa.tisaâ€?nkhaa (non-reflection) (18) viva.t.ta-anupassanaa (contemplation of turning away): sa~n~noga-abhinivesa (misinterpretation due to bondage) ------------------------------ Han: Out of the above, I do not quite understand some of them. For example, (13) su~n~nata-anupassanaa (contemplation of voidness): abhinivesa (misinterpretation) Han: abhinivesa is translated in your book as misinterpretation. According to PTS dictionary, abhinivesa means wishing for, tendency towards, inclination, adherence; as adj. liking, loving, being given or inclined to. What do you think is the best word for abhinivesa? After getting the best word for abhinivesa, can you explain how the contemplation of voidness would abandon abhinivesa? ----------- (16) aadiinava-anupassanaa (contemplation of danger): aalaya-abhinivesa (misinterpretation due to reliance) Han: aalaya is translated in your book as reliance. According to PTS dictionary aalaya means attachment, desire, clinging, lust. What do you think is the best word for aalaya? Thank you very much. Yours truly, Han #91796 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:48 pm Subject: Invariable Law: Do no Harm! bhikkhu0 Friends: Any Cause produce an Effect: Therefore: Never do any Evil! Neither openly nor in Secret... If having done bad or is doing wrong now, pain surely returns, even though one flee by flying away... The effect of any action, good as bad, follows the doer like a shadow that never leaves... Consequence is Certain... Why so ? Because one cannot hide anything for one's own mind! It knows & remembers! Mind is thus forerunner of all phenomena... The Blessed Buddha on non-violence: I am a friend of the footless, I am a friend of the bipeds; I am a friend of those with four feet, I am a friend of the many-footed. May not the footless harm me, may not the bipeds harm me, may not those with four feet harm me, and may not those with many feet harm me. AN. II, 72 Among tigers, lions, leopards & bears I lived in the wood. No one was frightened of me, nor did I fear anyone. Uplifted by such universal friendliness I enjoyed the forest. Finding great solace in sweet silent solitude. Suvanna-sama Jataka 540 On Harmlessness: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Harmlessness_and_Tolerance.htm Invariable Law: Do no Harm! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #91797 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:26 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Corner: Threes (13-18), and Co. part 1. nilovg Dear friends, Sutta: DN 33.1.10(13) 'Three more elements: the element of sense desire, the element of form, the formless element (Aparaapi tisso dhaatuyo - kaamadhaatu, ruupadhaatu, aruupa dhaatu.) ----- The Co begins to state that these three elements are empty, su~n~natta. It deals with the question in which planes kaama-dhaatu arises (See Dsg, Pali: 1280). As the Atthasaalinii explains: the planes of existence of the kaamaavacara dhammas, thus, the sensuous planes of existence, extend from the lowest plane, which is the “avíci hell”, up to the highest sensuous plane which is a heavenly plane, called the “paranimmita vasavatti deva plane” (the plane of heavenly beings with power over the creations of others). In all these planes there are sense objects. These are called sensuous becoming, kaama-bhava, or kaama-dhaatu. The Co states that there are the two classes of planes of ruupa- brahmas and aruupa-brahmas, those born as result of ruupa-jhaana and of aruupa-jhaana. Thus there are ruupa-dhaatu and aruupa-dhaatu. He classified as dhaatuu the location of becoming or birth. In this classification there are: kaama-dhaatu, ruupa-dhaatu and aruupa-dhaatu. --------- Co: Aparaapi tisso dhaatuyoti a~n~naapi su~n~nata.t.thena tisso dhaatuyo. Taasu ‘‘tattha katamaa kaamadhaatu? He.t.thato aviiciniraya.m pariyanta.m karitvaa’’ti eva.m vitthaarito kaamabhavo kaamadhaatu naama. ‘‘He.t.thato brahmaloka.m pariyanta.m karitvaa aakaasaana~ncaayatanupage deve pariyanta.m karitvaa’’ti eva.m vitthaaritaa pana ruupaaruupabhavaa itaraa dve dhaatuyo. Dhaatuyaa aagata.t.thaanamhi hi bhavena paricchinditabbaa. Bhavassa aagata.t.thaane dhaatuyaa paricchinditabbaa. Idha bhavena paricchedo kathito. ---------------------------------- sutta: 'Three more elements: the element of form, the formless element, the element of cessation (Aparaapi tisso dhaatuyo - ruupadhaatu, aruupadhaatu, nirodhadhaatu.) ------- N: The Co. states that ruupadhaatu and aruupadhaatu are becoming (bhava) , thus rebirth as result of ruupajhaana and of aruupajhaana. Moreover, there is nirodhadhaatu, the element of cessation, which is nibbaana. N: Nirodhadhaatu is the end of becoming, the end of the cycle of rebirth. The subco refers to the three va.t.tas, the three rounds of the Dependent Origination: the round of kamma, of vipaaka and of kilesa. It explains that when the round of kilesas has ceased, also the rounds of kamma and vipaaka have ceased. It states that also nibbaana that is nirodha-dhaatu, is su~n~natta, empty of a self. N: So long as we are in the cycle of birth and death, defilements are bound to arise on account of the objects experienced by vipaakacittas, such as seeing, hearing and the other sense- impressions. Defilements can motivate kamma which produces vipaaka and thus, the threefold cycle continues. The Buddha taught that through the development of understanding of all conditioned dhammas the element of cessation, nirodhadhaatu, can be reached. Co: Ruupadhaatuaadiisu ruupaaruupadhaatuyo ruupaaruupabhavaayeva. Nirodhadhaatuyaa nibbaana.m kathita.m. --------- Sutta: Three additional elements: the inferior-element, the middle-element, the superior-element (Aparaapi tisso dhaatuyo - hiinadhaatu, majjhimadhaatu, pa.niitadhaatu.) ---------- The Co. classifies dhammas as the three elements that are inferior (hina), medium (majjhima) and refined (paniita). The twelve akusala cittas are dhammas of the inferior element. The remaining cittas, those of the three planes (tebhuumaka), of sensuous plane, ruupajhaanaplane and aruupa-jhaanaplane, are dhammas of the medium element and the nine lokuttara dhammas, namely nibbaana and the eight lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana are the superior plane. co. Hiinaadiisu hiinaa dhaatuuti dvaadasa akusalacittuppaadaa. Avasesaa tebhuumakadhammaa majjhimadhaatu. Nava lokuttaradhammaa pa.niitadhaatu. --------------------- Nina. #91798 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Virtue (siila) .. Part II. nilovg Dear Han, may I butt in? Op 23-okt-2008, om 8:57 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > (13) su~n~nata-anupassanaa (contemplation of voidness): abhinivesa > (misinterpretation) > > Han: abhinivesa is translated in your book as misinterpretation. > According to PTS dictionary, abhinivesa means wishing for, tendency > towards, inclination, adherence; as adj. liking, loving, being > given or inclined to. What do you think is the best word for > abhinivesa? After getting the best word for abhinivesa, can you > explain how the contemplation of voidness would abandon abhinivesa? > ----------- > N: Su~n~natta: empty of the self, as is explained in the Majjhima > Nikaya. Abhinivesa: wrong adherence (to an idea of self), > misinterpratetion of reality. -------- > (16) aadiinava-anupassanaa (contemplation of danger): aalaya- > abhinivesa (misinterpretation due to reliance) > > Han: aalaya is translated in your book as reliance. According to > PTS dictionary aalaya means attachment, desire, clinging, lust. > What do you think is the best word for aalaya? ------- N: I agree, aalaya is clinging. Because of clinging we do not see the danger of akusala. Nina. #91799 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kusala or akusala? nilovg Dear Tep, Op 23-okt-2008, om 5:39 heeft visitorfromtexas het volgende geschreven: > T: When we "see" an arisen kusala or akusala, we should just observe > it with mindful awareness. It is the right Dhamma when there are > no 'we' who learn or appreciate. ------- N: Yes, this is good to remember. Even being grateful to learn is also a conditioned dhamma. If there were no listening or studying before, we would not be apt to be grateful or to learn. Nina.