#94800 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:42 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "I don't understand the last paraphrased quote about it being 'easier for the four essentials to change their essential character.....'." Scott: I should have added Atthasaalinii (pp.436-437): "For there is alteration in state (by way of deficiency and excess) of the four Great Essentials; but there is no such thing as alteration of characteristics. The absence of such alteration of characteristics is shown in the A.t.thaanaparikappa Sutta: 'Verily, Aananda, of the elements of extension ... of cohesion, these four great essentials might alter their characteristic sooner than it were possible for the Ariyan disciple endowed with assured faith in the Buddha to alter' (A"nguttara i,222). For this is the meaning: Aananda, the element of extension with the characteristic of being hard might change and be called the element of cohesion with the characteristic of flowing; but there would be no change in the Ariyan disciple. Thus is impossibility of change mentioned in the Sutta." Sincerely, Scott. #94801 From: "nichiconn" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:44 pm Subject: re: cornerstone nichiconn Thanks, Herman, > > c: This reminds me of the wagonload of salt... H: > From Milinda 2:3. The King appears to be a pushover for a mish- mash > of spurious logic, that confuses the experience of saltiness with the > causes of saltiness. > c: uh, "causes of saltiness"??? peace, connie #94802 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/11/2009 1:01:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard In a message dated 1/11/2009 7:17:38 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: True, I believe, but also a matter subtle and easily misunderstood. The experience of "this instant" remains as is for no time at all and is entirely dependent on past and current conditions, thus being inseparable from them and hence nothing in and of itself. And yet it is entirely fresh and new, and is what it is uniquely, differing from all other other experience, including all else that falls into the same conventional category. So, there is emptiness, but there is also freshness and characteristic, as I see it. Some will say that what I express here is an attempt to eat my cake and have it too, but I believe that this is the way it is. ....................................................................... TG: Would you like a medium or large piece? ;-) --------------------------------------------- Howard: Given my recent eating, I really should have a small one or abstain entirely! ;-) -------------------------------------------- Conditions are dynamically interacting and ever emerging as "new" formations. Maybe that's what you mean by "freshness"? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I mean entirely new and different in at least some way from everything else. --------------------------------------------- The term "characteristic" here plays into the hands of the "substantialist crowd." Personally I would replace it with something more like "diverse formationings" which leaves less to attach to IMO. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, except I find that my eyes glaze over when I read "diverse formationings"! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- I really like this part -- and is entirely dependent on past and current conditions, thus being inseparable from them and hence nothing in and of itself. ========================= With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94803 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. TGrand458@... Hi Connie, Sarah, All In a message dated 1/11/2009 5:42:42 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: Dear Sarah, TG, > "Hence Buddhaghosa passes on to discuss the mutually related spheres of the elements and their apparent approximations to each other, as in viscous things, e.g. or congealed liquid, or boiling water. as the A.t.thaanaparikappa sutta, A,i,122, that is easier for the four essentials to change their essential character than for the seeker of [Nibbaana] (the Noble Student to alter his high estate (Asl. 336)." .... S: I don't understand the last paraphrased quote about it being "easier for the four essentials to change their essential character...char ......................................................... TG: This is from the commentaries right? So Darn it...it MUST be true. So the commentary here is saying that the Four Essentials (Four Great Elements, I take it) CAN change their essential character? Is that what it says or am I misreading something? Thanks for the clarification in advance. (God I hope I'm misreading something for your sake. ;-)) ) ............................................. Am I being dim or is there an error here? ... The main point again... "...four Great Essentials; **but there is no such thing as alteration of characteristics*"...fo ................................................. TG: Hummmmmmm It seems the "commentarial jury" may still be out on that. .................................................................... c: The point is that both are impossible, but if an instance Were ever to occur, it would have to be in the material elements. .................................................................... TG: This conclusion follows what form of madness (I mean logic)? ;-) TG OUT #94804 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and TG) - In a message dated 1/11/2009 2:13:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear TG, Regarding: TG: "I think its very plain to see that contact, as used by the Buddha to indicate how consciousness arises, requires both a physical and mental contact..." Scott: Contact (phassa) refers to a mental 'touching' only. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I think not quite, Scott. Phassa involves consciousness, object (sometimes a rupa), and sense door (a rupa in 5 out of 6 cases), with phassa being the coming together of the three. ---------------------------------------------- The rest is armchair psychology of perception - you know, axons, neurons, synapses, nerves and stuff. Not Dhamma. Sincerely, Scott. ======================== With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94805 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: asl question upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and TG) - In a message dated 1/11/2009 5:10:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: Hi TG, Asl 269: << Again, when another person attending on occasion of sense agitates my subconscious life-continuum, processes of cognition arise, apperception takes place. >> TG: Certainly is written here oddly and awkwardly. It would seem to be about sense-objects agitating bhavanga consciousness causing conscious awareness of the contact to arise...and mindfully knowing such, it would appear. Is that close to your understanding of what it means? c: Yes, but. It's giving (another) example of a case where the sense-door process, due to the weakness of the object, doesn't quite get as far as registration... so the mindfully knowing part, as we usually think of that, doesn't really apply. I just think there's a missing phrase or something & wonder if other editions say the same thing & it's just me it's not making sense to. Th anks, though. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, looking beyond the unintelligible English translation (I assume the Pali is coherent), what I find interesting is the reference of one's mind being affected by another person, which supports the commonsense experience of interaction of people and my perspective on mutual reflection of namarupic streams. ----------------------------------------- peace, connie =========================== With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94806 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: Howard: "I think not quite, Scott. Phassa involves consciousness, object (sometimes a rupa), and sense door (a rupa in 5 out of 6 cases), with phassa being the coming together of the three." Scott: I'm going with the Abhidhamma on this one, Howard. Phassa is a mental factor (cetasika). Never ruupa. Sincerely, Scott. #94807 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:34 pm Subject: re: asl question nichiconn Hi Howard, Asl 269: << Again, when another person attending on occasion of sense agitates my subconscious life-continuum, processes of cognition arise, apperception takes place. >> -------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, looking beyond the unintelligible English translation (I assume the Pali is coherent), what I find interesting is the reference of one's mind being affected by another person, which supports the commonsense experience of interaction of people and my perspective on mutual reflection of namarupic streams. ----------------------------------------- c: dunno, Howard but having given up on teaching myself pali via reading the Vism i'd say it seems to get pretty convoluted and it's structure accounts for a lot of the awkwardness of the English translations. I may very well be mistaken, but I still don't think the sentence as it stands is correct so i wouldn't want to speculate as to what it might support, but part of what made me question it in the first place was the word 'my'. peace, connie #94808 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 1/11/2009 8:00:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: Hi Howard, Howard: Karunadasa writes "Nothing arises from a single cause. This rules out theories of a single cause (ekakaranavada).103 Their rejection is of great significance, showing that the Abhidhammic view of existence rejects all monistic theories which seek to explain the origin of the world from a single cause, whether this single cause is conceived as a personal God or an impersonal Godhead. It also serves as a critique of those metaphysical theories which attempt to reduce the world of experience to an underlying transempirical principle." This is an overstatement, IMO, (only) as regards the logic involved, for the multiple condition/multiple effect principle is with regard to relations among conditioned dhammas. c: There I go assuming again - "of course he's talking about the conditioned universe" - but then again, after our brief 'foundation' exchange, it's no surprise that you wouldn't make the same assumption... well, and you're more, or different, logic minded than I am. I don't know, would nibbaana as 'the only reality' be a monistic theory? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, I think not, at least not in the way that Advaita Vedanta is, with a single reality that is a homogeneous and static Self. I analogize nibbana as a dynamic and flowing, luminous, infinite and infinitely-faceted, seamless diamond reality that incorporates all that we know but mistakenly view as self-existent and separate. -------------------------------------------- peace, connie ============================= With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94809 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: cornerstone egberdina Hi connie, 2009/1/12 nichiconn : > Thanks, Herman, > >> > c: This reminds me of the wagonload of salt... > > H: > From Milinda 2:3. The King appears to be a pushover for a mish- > mash >> of spurious logic, that confuses the experience of saltiness with the >> causes of saltiness. >> > > c: uh, "causes of saltiness"??? > Yeah, sorry if that is clumsy. Nagasena's point is that you can't weigh flavour, duhhhhh :-) He conflates the form of salt with the taste of saltiness. Cheers Herman #94810 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 1/11/2009 9:27:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: Howard: "I think not quite, Scott. Phassa involves consciousness, object (sometimes a rupa), and sense door (a rupa in 5 out of 6 cases), with phassa being the coming together of the three." Scott: I'm going with the Abhidhamma on this one, Howard. Phassa is a mental factor (cetasika). Never ruupa. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Even in the suttas it is characterized as nama. That is certainly so. But what it is defined by the Buddha as is the coming together of consciousness, sense door, and sense object, the last two of which can be rupas, with the 3rd usually a rupa. Because of this, I see "Contact (phassa) refers to a mental 'touching' only" as misleading. Two of the three phenomena that come together are usually rupas. But, yes, the coming together is categorized as nama. --------------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ========================== With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94811 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc egberdina Hi Scott, 2009/1/12 Scott : > Dear Herman, > > Scott: Yes, 'form is independent of its being known' - if by that you > mean that it exists independent of becoming an object of > consciousness. Form is also subject to rise and fall - hence > impermanent. Do you agree? > All forms that are known are impermanent. Yes, I agree. I'll answer your other questions re phassa once I get some indication from you as to what limits you are going to impose on explanations for perception. Cheers Herman #94812 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: H: "All forms that are known are impermanent. Yes, I agree." Scott: You're agreeing with yourself, Herman. I said all form, known or not, is impermanent. H: "I'll answer your other questions re phassa once I get some indication from you as to what limits you are going to impose on explanations for perception." Scott: Answer or not, man. I always go with the Abhidhamma and Commentarial take on things. I disagree with the rest. You know that by now. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #94813 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc egberdina Hi Scott, 2009/1/12 Scott : > Dear Herman, > > Regarding: > > H: "All forms that are known are impermanent. Yes, I agree." > > Scott: You're agreeing with yourself, Herman. I said all form, known > or not, is impermanent. No you didn't. Re-read what you wrote. But if that is your position, you may as well be taking a position on whether the cosmos is eternal or not. For the Buddha, it is totally irrelevant what is believed about the unknown. Cheers Herman #94814 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: H: "Please let me know whether the following is Dhamma..." Scott: I read here to consider the suttas, the abhidhamma and the commentaries. I accept these. I get it that you don't. Did you want to tone down the sophisticated mockery a bit? Sincerely, Scott. #94815 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: H: "No you didn't. Re-read what you wrote. But if that is your position, you may as well be taking a position on whether the cosmos is eternal or not. For the Buddha, it is totally irrelevant what is believed about the unknown." Scott: All form (ruupa) - whether or not an object of consciousness - is impermanent because it arises and falls away quickly. Do you think this is correct? It is the Abhidhamma position. Sincerely, Scott. #94816 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc egberdina Hi Scott, 2009/1/12 Scott : > Dear Herman, > > Regarding: > > H: "Please let me know whether the following is Dhamma..." > > Scott: I read here to consider the suttas, the abhidhamma and the > commentaries. I accept these. I get it that you don't. Did you want > to tone down the sophisticated mockery a bit? > I asked my question in response to this Scott: Contact (phassa) refers to a mental 'touching' only. The rest is armchair psychology of perception - you know, axons, neurons, synapses, nerves and stuff. Not Dhamma. You are avoiding my very reasonable question. I can understand why. The question stands. Cheers Herman #94817 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc egberdina Hi Scott, 2009/1/12 Scott : > Scott: All form (ruupa) - whether or not an object of consciousness - > is impermanent because it arises and falls away quickly. Do you think > this is correct? It is the Abhidhamma position. > How can I take a position on what is, in principle, unknowable? Uncontacted form has no characteristics. If it is the Abhidhamma position, how did the Abhidhammikas arrive at it? Cheers Herman #94818 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:28 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Thank you, Alex. Best, Robert =============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Robert you are right, > > By creating "ultimate categories" not only one is engaging in papanca, > but craving as well. The reason the self is denied is also because > there is no "ultimate category" that is ultimate, all in itself, nicca > and so on. > > > With metta, > > Alex #94819 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:36 pm Subject: Re: Reply re White Powder Commentary from Kith sarahprocter... Hi Keith (& Herman), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "keithhenriques" wrote: > > I am still having difficulty posting. > Perhaps, I am not yet authorized. .... S: I hope you've got this sorted out by now. Everyone is 'authorized'! Please let me know off-list if you're still having difficulties with as much detail as possible. ... > I wonder how arguments relating the assertian that the ayatanas > are "central to > experience in Theravada" may relate to the four Asavas: > The Asava of sensuality > The Asava of rebirth > The Asava of speculative oppinion (especially vain conceits, madness > and or infactuation). > The Asava of ingnorance .... S: the cankers of sense-desire (kamaasava), of (desiring eternal) existence(bhavaasava), of (wrong) views (ditthaasava), and of ignorance(avijjasava). These are all unwholesome mental factors included in dhammaayatana. When there is the 'coming together' of the ayatanas, including this one, the asavas 'ooze' out. Please let us know if you have any more questions on this interesting topic. Metta, Sarah ========= #94820 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: H: "How can I take a position on what is, in principle, unknowable? Uncontacted form has no characteristics. If it is the Abhidhamma position, how did the Abhidhammikas arrive at it" Scott: I'm pretty sure it is the position (I'll check later, no time just now). I understand the Abhidhamma to represent the teaching of the Buddha. He arrived at it. There's that confidence you seem to have so little use for. Can't help it. Sincerely, Scott. #94821 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Regarding: H: "...The question stands." Scott: And so it shall, like Form Eternal. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #94822 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. TGrand458@... Hi Sarah, Scott, All In a message dated 1/11/2009 6:42:29 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "I don't understand the last paraphrased quote about it being 'easier for the four essentials to change their essential character...chara Scott: I should have added Atthasaalinii (pp.436-437)S "For there is alteration in state (by way of deficiency and excess) of the four Great Essentials; but there is no such thing as alteration of characteristics. ..................................................... TG: So the Four Great Elements CAN alter from one to another, (a revelation to some here I would think), but IF the "characteristics" don't alter in accordance, then the "characteristics" are not part of altering phenomena and are certainly not inherent in arising phenomena. Characteristics, in this case, would be mere conceptual definitions associated with types of experiences ... but having no direct connection to the phenomena generating those experiences. For if they did have a direct connection...as the phenomena altered, the characteristics would have to alter accordingly! So for those dealing with "characteristics" they can only have it one of two ways. Either the "characteristics" alter, or they are not part of phenomena. Neither position is tenable for the "Dhammas Theory" as I understand it. Therefore, the view of "ultimate realities with their own characteristics" is flawed and contradicted by the Suttas....(and some commentaries.) ............................................................... The absence of such alteration of characteristics is shown in the ....................................................... TG: OK, Up to this point a conclusion has been drawn by Scott that "characteristics" cannot change. Next the Sutta "evidence" is brought in for support... .............................................. A.t.thaanaparikappa Sutta: 'Verily, Aananda, of the elements of extension ... of cohesion, these four great essentials might alter their characteristic sooner than it were possible for the Ariyan disciple endowed with assured faith in the Buddha to alter' (A"nguttara i,222). For this is the meaning: Aananda, the element of extension with the characteristic of being hard might change and be called the element of cohesion with the characteristic of flowing; ................................................... TG Here, the SUTTA, is clearly saying ... and I quote -- "the element of extension with the characteristic of being hard might change and be called the element of cohesion with the characteristic of flowing; " There is no evidence that the above Suttas is saying that "the characteristic" does not change in accordance with changing 'the element.' In fact, it would seem to be saying that IT DOES. But it is not 100% conclusive...so I'll leave a modicum of benefit of doubt open. If we are to conclude that the Sutta is saying that characteristics can NOT change, which is dubious; then we have to conclude that "characteristics" are not a part of, and are not qualities of, the phenomena "underlying them" which are altering. I wonder what Scott thinks about the Suttas saying that "hardness" can alter into "flowing"? FLOWING! This Sutta puts major kinks in the "own characteristic" theory and one can't get away from the fact that what is being discussed here is -- The Four Great Elements altering "their" states from one to the other. And either "characteristics" are altering with them, or they ain't part of them. ................................................... but there would be no change in the Ariyan disciple." Scott: Thus is impossibility of change mentioned in the Sutta." ........................................................... TG: Scott! You got to be KIDDING! The Buddha is saying that a noble dis ciple won't have his/her faith in the Buddha change... because they are so convinced of the correctness of his teaching. The Sutta actually DOES say that the Four Great Elements can change from one to the other. And mentions "flowing." A term I'm guessing you would despise. Are you saying that the Suttas are saying that characteristics can't change? Where??? I don't see it. Is this more interpretive palm reading? Changing, altering, and flowing elements?? Dammit Jim, I'm a Buddhist not an Abhidhammist! TG OUT #94823 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc TGrand458@... Hi Scott and Howard In a message dated 1/11/2009 7:27:47 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Howard: "I think not quite, Scott. Phassa involves consciousness, object (sometimes a rupa), and sense door (a rupa in 5 out of 6 cases), with phassa being the coming together of the three." Scott: I'm going with the Abhidhamma on this one, Howard. Phassa is a mental factor (cetasika). Never ruupa. ................................................. TG: Despite all logic, common sense, and Sutta evidence ... Scott presses onward!!! Go Scott!!!!!! TG OUT ;-) #94824 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:48 pm Subject: Further Consideration Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Co... sarahprocter... Hi Rob E, Friends often ask how or why an understanding of dhammas leads to a growth of metta and other brahma viharas rather than the reverse. It's a real sticking point for many people. I think that what you write below, the "by de-emphasizing the 'I' we become more available to others" is a good illustration of the direction an understanding of dhammas, a lessening of the hold of *Me*, takes us in this regard: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > It appears to me that by > de-emphasizing the "I" we become more available to others, not less. The idea that we have to ignore others or isolate ourselves because we do not see them as "I"s or ourselves as "I"s does not make sense to me. Let's say you are all wrapped up in what is important to you, because you [generic you] is busy serving the "I." A guy asks you the time and you think "G*ddamn it, I've got to get to work; why is this guy bothering me?" and you register irritation. This is all because of the "I" being served. You're not honoring this other guy's "I." You wish he would get out of your way, so you're treating him like an object, not a person, anyway. Now let's say you have put the "I" aside and you are just going about your business. You're not drooling into your shirt or anything by losing the "I" emphasis, you just aren't busy thinking about yourself like an island to defend unto itself; you're just doing whatever is appropriate at the time. You still go to work, etc., but you're not worried about "what's going to happen to poor me." So you run into this same guy and he asks you the time, and you stop pleasantly and say "Gee, it's 9 am. Is there anything else I can do for you?" because your self-serving interest is out of the way. Perhaps you even think to yourself "Well I may be a little bit late because of this, but this guy needs a bit of assistance, so I'll just give him a moment of my time." And he says "Well actually I'm looking for a store that sells flowers." So you direct him down the street, etc. Then you happily go to work, pleased that you were able to help someone out on the way to work. The fact that you are not thinking "I I I" does not make him invisisble, it just makes you more available. So I would say it is the opposite - the "I" makes you an isolated island, it is a barrier; and getting it out of the way makes you more perceptive of others and more available to help. I can think of many examples, but I'll save some space at this point. .... S: A nice illustration of daily life metta and respect and how such metta or friendliness is to others, NOT to oneself. Metta, Sarah ======== #94825 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 1/11/2009 7:44:51 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: Even in the suttas it is characterized as nama. That is certainly so. ........................................................ TG: Do you have the reference? I'm not familiar with such a distinct determination in the Suttas. #94826 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc TGrand458@... Ho Scott In a message dated 1/11/2009 7:52:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Scott: Answer or not, man. I always go with the Abhidhamma and Commentarial take on things. I disagree with the rest. You know that by now. ;-) ................................................ TG: Appreciate the unabashed honesty here! As I've said, they are authority for some in here and Suttas and playing second fiddle...at best. LOL TG OUT #94827 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Sarah & Scott) - In a message dated 1/11/2009 10:45:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Sarah, Scott, All In a message dated 1/11/2009 6:42:29 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "I don't understand the last paraphrased quote about it being 'easier for the four essentials to change their essential character...chara Scott: I should have added Atthasaalinii (pp.436-437)S "For there is alteration in state (by way of deficiency and excess) of the four Great Essentials; but there is no such thing as alteration of characteristics. ..................................................... TG: So the Four Great Elements CAN alter from one to another, (a revelation to some here I would think), but IF the "characteristics" don't alter in accordance, then the "characteristics" are not part of altering phenomena and are certainly not inherent in arising phenomena. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm getting confused here, TG. The quote Scott gives speaks of earth, air, fire, and water altering in terms of relative growth or decline, but not in terms one becoming another. ----------------------------------------------------- Characteristics, in this case, would be mere conceptual definitions associated with types of experiences ... but having no direct connection to the phenomena generating those experiences. For if they did have a direct connection...as the phenomena altered, the characteristics would have to alter accordingly! So for those dealing with "characteristics" they can only have it one of two ways. Either the "characteristics" alter, or they are not part of phenomena. Neither position is tenable for the "Dhammas Theory" as I understand it. Therefore, the view of "ultimate realities with their own characteristics" is flawed and contradicted by the Suttas....(and some commentaries.) ............................................................... The absence of such alteration of characteristics is shown in the ....................................................... TG: OK, Up to this point a conclusion has been drawn by Scott that "characteristics" cannot change. Next the Sutta "evidence" is brought in for support... .............................................. A.t.thaanaparikappa Sutta: 'Verily, Aananda, of the elements of extension ... of cohesion, these four great essentials might alter their characteristic sooner than it were possible for the Ariyan disciple endowed with assured faith in the Buddha to alter' (A"nguttara i,222). For this is the meaning: Aananda, the element of extension with the characteristic of being hard might change and be called the element of cohesion with the characteristic of flowing; ------------------------------------------------ Howard: It seems to me that this just says that earth will remain earth, etc. It is similar to saying that it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a ricj man to enter the kingdom of heaven. The point is to use a comparison to show how surely something will not happen. ----------------------------------------------- ................................................... TG Here, the SUTTA, is clearly saying ... and I quote -- "the element of extension with the characteristic of being hard might change and be called the element of cohesion with the characteristic of flowing; " ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Not my reading at all, and surely hardness doesn't turn into cohesion of flowing. ----------------------------------------------- There is no evidence that the above Suttas is saying that "the characteristic" does not change in accordance with changing 'the element.' In fact, it would seem to be saying that IT DOES. But it is not 100% conclusive...so I'll leave a modicum of benefit of doubt open. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that you may be making a mistake here, TG. -------------------------------------------------- If we are to conclude that the Sutta is saying that characteristics can NOT change, which is dubious; then we have to conclude that "characteristics" are not a part of, and are not qualities of, the phenomena "underlying them" which are altering. I wonder what Scott thinks about the Suttas saying that "hardness" can alter into "flowing"? FLOWING! This Sutta puts major kinks in the "own characteristic" theory and one can't get away from the fact that what is being discussed here is -- The Four Great Elements altering "their" states from one to the other. And either "characteristics" are altering with them, or they ain't part of them. ................................................... but there would be no change in the Ariyan disciple." Scott: Thus is impossibility of change mentioned in the Sutta." ........................................................... TG: Scott! You got to be KIDDING! The Buddha is saying that a noble dis ciple won't have his/her faith in the Buddha change... because they are so convinced of the correctness of his teaching. The Sutta actually DOES say that the Four Great Elements can change from one to the other. And mentions "flowing." A term I'm guessing you would despise. Are you saying that the Suttas are saying that characteristics can't change? Where??? I don't see it. Is this more interpretive palm reading? Changing, altering, and flowing elements?? Dammit Jim, I'm a Buddhist not an Abhidhammist! TG OUT Sincerely, Scott. ================================ With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94828 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc TGrand458@... Scott asking someone else "to tone down the sophisticated mockery"....priceless. ;-) #94829 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:02 pm Subject: Re: cornerstone sarahprocter... Dear Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > S: Hmmmm - But asabhava dhammas are not pannattis, concepts (the products of that "synthetical function"). For example, space element, the intimations or the arising etc of rupas are asabhava dhammas but not concepts. > > c: Putting aside the concept question, don't the asabhava dhammas have to be known in relation to other things? I mean, intimations can only be known thru 'thinking about' and space is defined in terms of other rupas; maybe not in 'infinite space' but i'm not there... even tho it may seem like it sometimes, haha. .... S: Alberto & Nina already replied in detaqil. Asabhava dhammas, not known just by 'thinking about', but these dhammas are 'not obvious' (I think that's about how the Vism puts it). In other words, the intimations don't appear and can't be known now as I understand. Even so, still paramatha dhammas, not pannatti. Metta, Sarah ======== #94830 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/11/2009 10:52:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard In a message dated 1/11/2009 7:44:51 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: Even in the suttas it is characterized as nama. That is certainly so. ........................................................ TG: Do you have the reference? I'm not familiar with such a distinct determination in the Suttas. =============================== Isn't contact one of the operations in the sankharakkhandha? In MN 9, you will find the following: "Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality." So, you see, contact is listed as nama. With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94831 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc egberdina Hi Scott, On 12/01/2009, Scott wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Regarding: > > H: "...The question stands." > > Scott: And so it shall, like Form Eternal. ;-) > Let me get this straight. If I use any words like axon, neuron etc in discussing perception, I can expect to be mocked for my armchair psychology, but if I use words like bile, phleghm, sinews etc in the same context then I may well garner some respect? Cheers Herman #94832 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:11 pm Subject: Re: A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Two days ago, the abbot was in Kuala Lumpur and I invited him to my > new apartment for dana. A number of devotees who lived close to the > abbot's sanctuary accompanied the abbot to my apartment. One of these > devotees approached me after the dana and told me that she had read > every page of "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" and had made copious > notes. She said that she was particularly thrilled with Chapter > 34, "Dialogue on Vipassana - The Natural Way of Development". She > said that she had discussed the ideas from this chapter extensively > with a number of monks. > > I excused myself momentarily, went into another room and said to > her, "I just happen to have a spare copy of that book and I would > like to give it to you." Nina, she was so happy that she started > crying! .... S: I was glad you shared this account. Obviously this lady had the accumulations to find the book extremely useful. She would probably appreciated the edited recordings of discussions with A.Sujin too, to be found on www.dhammastudygroup.org. Also if she (or anyone else) is free to join us, Nina, Lodewijk and other friends when we're in Bangkok during the first two weeks of February, we'd be delighted to welcome them. Thanks, Rob, for sharing your ariticle on Death....I have a few comments to add in due course. Metta, Sarah ======== #94833 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. TGrand458@... Hi Howard S: "I don't understand the last paraphrased quote about it being 'easier for the four essentials to change their essential character...chara Scott: I should have added Atthasaalinii (pp.436-437)S "For there is alteration in state (by way of deficiency and excess) of the four Great Essentials; but there is no such thing as alteration of characteristics. ..................................................... TG: So the Four Great Elements CAN alter from one to another, (a revelation to some here I would think), but IF the "characteristics" don't alter in accordance, then the "characteristics" are not part of altering phenomena and are certainly not inherent in arising phenomena. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm getting confused here, TG. The quote Scott gives speaks of earth, air, fire, and water altering in terms of relative growth or decline, but not in terms one becoming another. ----------------------------------------------------- ............................................................. TG: "the element of extension with the characteristic of being hard might change and be called the element of cohesion with the characteristic of flowing." I see, so you are saying the Buddha is being a bit facetious is his analogy in that the elements cannot change...even more so the faith of a disciple. Not regularly his style to say something can happen that actually can't. You may be right. I don't have the Sutta handy. In that case I retract my post to Sarah and Scott. LOL I need to see the whole Sutta. Anyone got a PTS page number for it? ............................................. Characteristics, in this case, would be mere conceptual definitions associated with types of experiences ... but having no direct connection to the phenomena generating those experiences. For if they did have a direct connection..experiences. For i altered, the characteristics would have to alter accordingly! So for those dealing with "characteristics" they can only have it one of two ways. Either the "characteristics" alter, or they are not part of phenomena. Neither position is tenable for the "Dhammas Theory" as I understand it. Therefore, the view of "ultimate realities with their own characteristics" is flawed and contradicted by the Suttas....(and some commentaries.f ............................................................... The absence of such alteration of characteristics is shown in the ....................................................... TG: OK, Up to this point a conclusion has been drawn by Scott that "characteristics" cannot change. Next the Sutta "evidence" is brought in for support... .............................................. A.t.thaanaparikappa Sutta: 'Verily, Aananda, of the elements of extension ... of cohesion, these four great essentials might alter their characteristic sooner than it were possible for the Ariyan disciple endowed with assured faith in the Buddha to alter' (A"nguttara i,222). For this is the meaning: Aananda, the element of extension with the characteristic of being hard might change and be called the element of cohesion with the characteristic of flowing; ------------------------------------------------ Howard: It seems to me that this just says that earth will remain earth, etc. It is similar to saying that it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a ricj man to enter the kingdom of heaven. The point is to use a comparison to show how surely something will not happen. ----------------------------------------------- ................................................................. TG: Yea, you're probably right. I wish I figured that out an hour ago. LOL Still would like to read the Sutta before determining if it has any relevant ontological concerns or is being more stylistically metaphorical or yet another possibility. TG OUT #94834 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc TGrand458@... Hi Herman In a message dated 1/11/2009 9:08:19 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Let me get this straight. If I use any words like axon, neuron etc in discussing perception, I can expect to be mocked for my armchair psychology, but if I use words like bile, phleghm, sinews etc in the same context then I may well garner some respect? Cheers Herman ....................................... I'm very much enjoying your conversation with Scott. (Easier to be on the sidelines.) The Buddha obviously communicates to folks 2,600 years ago and speaks in terms of what they would have been familiar with. It seems just as obvious, had the Buddha been born these days, his teachings and analogies would have taken of a very different look with modern knowledge involved in analogies and metaphors. TG OUT #94835 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:42 pm Subject: Further Consideration Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Co... epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: Rob E. So I would say...the "I" makes you an isolated island, it is a barrier; > and getting it out of the way makes you more perceptive of others and > more available to help. ... > .... > S: A nice illustration of daily life metta and respect and how such > metta or friendliness is to others, NOT to oneself. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Thank you, Sarah. My understanding of metta towards oneself would just be that as one would see various kandhas as impersonal, those associated with oneself could just as easily be included. After all, if there is no sense of "I," why would one make a distinction between "my" kandhas and someone else's. They are all formations in need of peace, I would think, wherever they may seem to reside. I would think there would be a real difference between sending metta to my identity as "the Robert person" and sending metta to the kandhas which arise impersonally within my experience from a more impersonal point of view. I think it would depend on the perspective. Another point would be that aversion is often an inverted form of attachment. If I am excluding myself from the radiating of metta, doesn't that create a dark spot, a place of separation in the field of metta? By exclusion am I not overly emphasizing "myself" as something that is bad to send lovingkindness? Why would I do that except out of some form of concern over the "I?" Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = = = = #94836 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. TGrand458@... Hi Howard I was reading my last post to you and it was very hard to follow... so I'm shortening here... In a message dated 1/11/2009 9:24:32 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: ............................................................. NEW TG: I see, so you are saying the Buddha is being a bit facetious is his analogy in that the elements cannot change...even more so the faith of a disciple. Not regularly his style to say something can happen that actually can't. You may be right. I don't have the Sutta handy. In that case I retract my post to Sarah and Scott. LOL I need to see the whole Sutta. Anyone got a PTS page number for it? ............................... ............................................. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: It seems to me that this just says that earth will remain earth, etc. It is similar to saying that it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a ricj man to enter the kingdom of heaven. The point is to use a comparison to show how surely something will not happen. ----------------------------------------------- ................................................................. .............................................................. NEW TG: Yea, you're probably right. I wish I figured that out an hour ago. LOL Still would like to read the Sutta before determining if it has any relevant ontological concerns or is being more stylistically metaphorical or yet another possibility. .................................................... ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Not my reading at all, and surely hardness doesn't turn into cohesion of flowing. ----------------------------------------------- .................................................................... NEW TG: If it gets hot enough it does. ;-) "Hardness" is not my outlook for the earth element though. ..................................................................... ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that you may be making a mistake here, TG. .............................................................. NEW TG: I think you're right! Dammit. TG OUT #94837 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Hi Jon & Howard, --- On Fri, 9/1/09, jonoabb wrote: >J: As regards the term "unreal" in the Uraga Sutta, as I don't know the Pali term I can't comment. .... S: patching together from old posts: "Yo naaccasaari na paccasaari 'sabba.m vitatham idan'ti ~natvaa loke so bhikkhu jahaati orapaara.m urago ji.n.nam taca.m puraa.na.m" 1. Thanissaro "The monk who hasn't slipped past or turned back, knowing with regard to the world that "All this is unreal," sloughs off the near shore & far -- as a snake, its decrepit old skin." 2. Nyanaponika "Who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: 'This is all unreal,' such monk gives up the Here and the Beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin." 3.Saddhatissa "He who is neither restless nor indolent and knowing that all is unsubstantial, that monk gives up the Cycle of Existence as the snake sheds its old, decayed skin." Dan wrote and quoted the following: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9835 "Nyanaponika wrote a little about his translation in an essay entitled "The Worn-out Skin" [I believe it is a "Wheel" or "Bodhi Leaves" publication through BPS, a selection of which are compiled into a book called "Vision of Dhamma"]. I quote: "The world is 'unreal' in the sense of presenting a deceptive appearance, being quite different in actuality from the way it appears to a greedy, lustful, hating, and ignorant mind. The Pali word 'vitatha', here rendered by 'unreal,' has both in Pali and Sanskrit the meaning of 'untrue' or 'false.' [The CSCD dictionary agrees precisely]. These verses, however, are not meant to convey the idea that the world is mere illusion, a play of the imagination. What underlies its deceptive appearance, the flux of mental and physical processes, is real enough in the sense that it is effect-producing. The unreality lies in what we attribute to the world, and not in the world itself. "What, now is this 'world' (loka) and this 'all' (sabba), which should be seen as unreal, in the sense of being deceptive? When the Enlightened One was questioned about these two words, he gave the same answer for both: 1.'"One speaks of 'the world,' Lord. In how far is there are world or the designation 'world'?" "When there is the eye and visible forms, visual consciousness and things cognizable by visual consciousness; when there is the ear and sounds...; nose and smells...; tongue and flavours...; body and tangibles...; mind and ideas, mind- consciousness and things cognizable by mind-consciousness--then there is a world and the designation 'world'."'[SN 35:68] 2. '"'All' will I show you, O monks. And what is 'all'? The eye and visible forms, ear and sounds, nose and smells, tongue and flavors, mind and ideas--this, O monks, is what is called 'all'."' [SN35:22]"" ***** Metta, Sarah ========= #94838 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:28 pm Subject: Re: A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas szmicio Dear Sarah > S: Also if she (or anyone else) is free to join us, Nina, Lodewijk and > other friends when we're in Bangkok during the first two weeks of > February, we'd be delighted to welcome them. L: Please record this Dhamma discussion. Are there any recordings from this April meeting 2008? Best wishes Lukas #94839 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:03 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Robert E, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > When you say that something is "paramatha," it seems to me that there > is a danger of heading in that direction, and that on a number of > occasions folks have regarded the paramatha dhammas with a kind of > reverent absoluteness that I think should only be reserved, if at all, > for nibbana itself. > I think that the Dhamma is about understanding what is actually real, the dhammas, and that it doesn't relegate them to some sort of undefinenable limbo where the self can safely ignore them. Alberto #94840 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:10 am Subject: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34. no 11. nilovg Dear friends, Q. : I do not know yet the characteristic of satipatthåna. When I listen intently to your lecture, I understand the subject matter, the theory. There is also awareness while I have theoretical understanding, but I do not consider nåma and rúpa at that moment. I am not sure whether that is satipatthåna or not. S. : If we do not know that our life is only nåma and rúpa, we are bound to take realities for self. We are full of the concept of self and this can only be eradicated completely by satipatthåna. Sati can be aware and begin to investigate the characteristics of nåma and rúpa which appear. In the beginning, when sati is aware, there cannot yet be clear understanding of the realities which appear as nåma and as rúpa. The understanding may be so weak that it is hardly noticeable. Understanding develops only gradually, it can eliminate ignorance stage by stage; ignorance cannot be immediately eradicated. It is just as in the case of the knife-handle someone holds each day and which wears off only a little at a time. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (III, Middle Fifty, Ch V, § 101, Adze-handle) that the Buddha, while he was in Såvatthí, said to the monks that defilements can be eradicated by realizing the arising and falling away of the five khandhas. This cannot be achieved “by not knowing, by not seeing.” If someone would just wish for the eradication of defilements and he would be neglectful of the development of understanding, defilements cannot be eradicated. Only by the development of understanding, defilements can gradually be eliminated. We read: Just as if, monks, when a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice looks upon his adze-handle and sees thereon his thumb-mark and his finger- marks he does not thereby know: “Thus and thus much of my adze-handle has been worn away today, thus much yesterday, thus much at other times.” But he knows the wearing away of it just by its wearing away. Even so, monks, the monk who dwells attentive to self-training has not this knowledge: “Thus much and thus much of the åsavas has been worn away today, thus much yesterday, and thus much at other times.” But he knows the wearing away of them just by their wearing away. Understanding has to be developed for an endlessly long time. Some people dislike it that sati and paññå develop only very gradually, but there is no other way. If someone is impatient and tries to combine different ways of practice in order to hasten the development of paññå, he makes his life very complicated. *********** Nina. #94841 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc nilovg Hi Howard and TG, Op 12-jan-2009, om 2:59 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > TG: "I think its very plain to see that contact, as used by the > Buddha to indicate how consciousness arises, requires both a physical > and mental contact..." > > Scott: Contact (phassa) refers to a mental 'touching' only. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think not quite, Scott. Phassa involves consciousness, object > (sometimes a rupa), and sense door (a rupa in 5 out of 6 cases), > with phassa being > the coming together of the three. -------- N: There is certainly impinging of a rupa on a sense-door, but when using the word phassa, translated as contact, a cetasika is meant with a specific function. It accompanies eacch citta and assists the citta to experience an object. In the sutta we read: the coming together, and this is the manifestation of phassa. When there is the coming together, we know that there is phassa 'contacting' that object. ------ Nina. #94842 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nilovg Hi TG and Howard, Op 12-jan-2009, om 2:52 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Conditions are dynamically interacting and ever emerging as "new" > formations. Maybe that's what you mean by "freshness"? > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I mean entirely new and different in at least some way from everything > else. -------- N: An example of this. Understanding grows by listening, considering and being aware. When it is developed to the degree that enlightenment can be attained, there are condiitons for the arising of lokuttara pa~n~naa, and this is of a different plane of citta. ------- Nina. #94843 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc egberdina Hi Nina and Scott, 2009/1/12 Nina van Gorkom : > Hi Howard and TG, > Op 12-jan-2009, om 2:59 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > >> TG: "I think its very plain to see that contact, as used by the >> Buddha to indicate how consciousness arises, requires both a physical >> and mental contact..." >> >> Scott: Contact (phassa) refers to a mental 'touching' only. >> ----------------------------------------------- >> Howard: >> I think not quite, Scott. Phassa involves consciousness, object >> (sometimes a rupa), and sense door (a rupa in 5 out of 6 cases), >> with phassa being >> the coming together of the three. > -------- > N: There is certainly impinging of a rupa on a sense-door, but when > using the word phassa, translated as contact, a cetasika is meant > with a specific function. It accompanies eacch citta and assists the > citta to experience an object. "Now, when there is the eye, when there are forms, when there is eye-consciousness, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of contact.1 When there is a delineation of contact, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of feeling. When there is a delineation of feeling, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of perception. When there is a delineation of perception, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of thinking. When there is a delineation of thinking, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of being assailed by the perceptions & categories of complication." 1. The artificiality of this phrase — "delineate a delineation" — seems intentional. It underlines the artifice implicit in the process by which the mind, in singling out events, turns them into discrete things. (MN18 as found on ATO). Cheers Herman #94844 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. egberdina Hi Alberto, 2009/1/12 sprlrt : > Hi Robert E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > wrote: >> When you say that something is "paramatha," it seems to me that there >> is a danger of heading in that direction, and that on a number of >> occasions folks have regarded the paramatha dhammas with a kind of >> reverent absoluteness that I think should only be reserved, if at all, >> for nibbana itself. >> > > I think that the Dhamma is about understanding what is actually real, > the dhammas, and that it doesn't relegate them to some sort of > undefinenable limbo where the self can safely ignore them. > MN18 "When there is no intellect, when there are no ideas, when there is no intellect-consciousness, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of contact. When there is no delineation of contact, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of feeling. When there is no delineation of feeling, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of perception. When there is no delineation of perception, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of thinking. When there is no delineation of thinking, it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of being assailed by the perceptions & categories of complication. "So, concerning the brief statement the Blessed One made, after which he entered his dwelling without analyzing the detailed meaning — i.e., 'If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. " Cheers Herman #94845 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: cornerstone egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/1/12 sarah abbott : > Hi Connie, Scott, Herman & all, > > 'No, that would not be possible. **But each flavour would nevertheless be distinctly present by its characteristic sign.**' > > 'And just so, great king, with respect to those conditions we were discussing.' > > 'Very good, Naagasena!' > > > .... > S: Not possible to distinguish or know by ignorance, but for developed panna, the distinct characteristics can be known, just as the soup ingredients can be detected by Howard's aunt! > One of the reasons Howard's aunt can detect the ingredients, is that she has previously tasted them, individually, not as part of the whole. That is a luxury not even panna is afforded, there is no possibility of isolating individual characteristics of an experience and know them as they would be if the other characteristics weren't there. In any "mind moment", all factors of that moment are present and mutually conditioning, and that moment is known as a whole. Cheers Herman #94846 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Sarah, Scott, and all) - S: "I don't understand the last paraphrased quote about it being 'easier for the four essentials to change their essential character...chara Scott: I should have added Atthasaalinii (pp.436-437)S "For there is alteration in state (by way of deficiency and excess) of the four Great Essentials; but there is no such thing as alteration of characteristics. ..................................................... TG: So the Four Great Elements CAN alter from one to another, (a revelation to some here I would think), but IF the "characteristics" don't alter in accordance, then the "characteristics" are not part of altering phenomena and are certainly not inherent in arising phenomena. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm getting confused here, TG. The quote Scott gives speaks of earth, air, fire, and water altering in terms of relative growth or decline, but not in terms one becoming another. ----------------------------------------------------- ............................................................. TG: "the element of extension with the characteristic of being hard might change and be called the element of cohesion with the characteristic of flowing." I see, so you are saying the Buddha is being a bit facetious is his analogy in that the elements cannot change...even more so the faith of a disciple. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, yeah, that's how I take it - that an ariyan disciple's faith faltering is even less likely than the great elements changing into each other (or a leopard changing his spots, or a camel going through the eye of a needle, or ... , well, you got my point.). ------------------------------------------------------- Not regularly his style to say something can happen that actually can't. You may be right. I don't have the Sutta handy. In that case I retract my post to Sarah and Scott. LOL I need to see the whole Sutta. Anyone got a PTS page number for it? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'd like to see the whole thing too. :-) ---------------------------------------------------- ............................................. Characteristics, in this case, would be mere conceptual definitions associated with types of experiences ... but having no direct connection to the phenomena generating those experiences. For if they did have a direct connection..experiences. For i altered, the characteristics would have to alter accordingly! So for those dealing with "characteristics" they can only have it one of two ways. Either the "characteristics" alter, or they are not part of phenomena. Neither position is tenable for the "Dhammas Theory" as I understand it. Therefore, the view of "ultimate realities with their own characteristics" is flawed and contradicted by the Suttas....(and some commentaries.f ............................................................... The absence of such alteration of characteristics is shown in the ....................................................... TG: OK, Up to this point a conclusion has been drawn by Scott that "characteristics" cannot change. Next the Sutta "evidence" is brought in for support... .............................................. A.t.thaanaparikappa Sutta: 'Verily, Aananda, of the elements of extension ... of cohesion, these four great essentials might alter their characteristic sooner than it were possible for the Ariyan disciple endowed with assured faith in the Buddha to alter' (A"nguttara i,222). For this is the meaning: Aananda, the element of extension with the characteristic of being hard might change and be called the element of cohesion with the characteristic of flowing; ------------------------------------------------ Howard: It seems to me that this just says that earth will remain earth, etc. It is similar to saying that it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a ricj man to enter the kingdom of heaven. The point is to use a comparison to show how surely something will not happen. ----------------------------------------------- ................................................................. TG: Yea, you're probably right. I wish I figured that out an hour ago. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I'm, pretty sure I'm right. ------------------------------------------ LOL Still would like to read the Sutta before determining if it has any relevant ontological concerns or is being more stylistically metaphorical or yet another possibility. TG OUT ============================ With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94847 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:37 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "18. Another may be controlled in his verbal behaviour, and his control known to all - he may be naturally clever at welcoming kindly, easy to talk with, congenial, open-countenanced, deferential in speech, and he may expound the Dhamma with a sweet voice and give explanations of Dhamma with well-rounded phrases and details - though his bodily and mental behaviours are not controlled. Then the latter should be ignored and the control of his verbal behaviour remembered." The Path of Purity. "Another man is calm in his behaviour in speech, which is noticed by everyone. For by nature he is apt in welcoming, friendly, sweet in speech, congenial, of a frank countenance, ready at greetings, recites the Law in sweet voice, preaches a sermon with full terms and expressions. But he is not calm in bodily and mental behaviour. These being disregarded, only the calmness of his speech-behaviour should be recollected." Ekaccassa vaciisamaacaarova upasanto hoti. Upasantabhaavo cassa sabbajanena ~naayati. So hi pakatiyaa ca pa.tisanthaarakusalo hoti sakhilo sukhasambhaaso sammodako uttaanamukho pubbabhaasii madhurena sarena dhamma.m osaareti, parima.n.dalehi padabya~njanehi dhammakatha.m katheti. Kaayasamaacaaramanosamaacaaraa pana avuupasantaa honti, tassa te acintetvaa vaciisamaacaaravuupasamoyeva anussaritabbo. Sincerely, Scott. #94848 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: cornerstone upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/12/2009 6:10:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: One of the reasons Howard's aunt can detect the ingredients, is that she has previously tasted them, individually, not as part of the whole. That is a luxury not even panna is afforded, there is no possibility of isolating individual characteristics of an experience and know them as they would be if the other characteristics weren't there. In any "mind moment", all factors of that moment are present and mutually conditioning, and that moment is known as a whole. ============================ Well, I can see an alternative way of thinking about this. Suppose one has tasted a variety of quite different dishes all of which have tumeric (or pepper, or salt, or garlic, or whatever) as an ingredient, and then one tastes an entirely new dish that that as an ingredient. I think the taster might well distinguish that ingredient, even though it had never been tasted individually. Likewise, for example, if one has "tasted" numerous mind states, with some pleasant, some unpleasant, and some neutral, along with a variety of other varying features, and then a new pleasant state arises, I think that the pleasantness would be detected (in fact, we KNOW that is so), even though pleasantness in isolation has never been and never will be detected. With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana nilovg Dear Alex, Op 10-jan-2009, om 18:56 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Dear Nina, Howard and all, > > a) Rupa doesn't have to be "visible form". Rupa = matter. It isn't > neccesery cakkhuvinnana, cakkhusanna and so on. In one sutta in fact > the visible form and rupa are separate categories. Furthermore since > one usually mediates with eyes closed, then even if rupa = form seen > with the eye, then it doesn't apply. -------- N: Right. Depending on the context rupa can be visible object or rupa in general, physical phenomenon. It could never be cakkhuvi~n~naa.na, since rupa is not nama. Seeing a mental image of a kasina is not seeing a sense object. -------- > > b) MahaMoggallana in Vinaya Pj 4 said that he has HEARD while in 4th > to base of infinite consciousness (impertubable). The Buddha has > confirmed. ------- N: I cannot trace this text, but can it be heard with divine ear? That is a different matter. -------- > > A: c) Sound IS a thorn because it IS heard and when one is in 1st > Jhana > one isn't far from kamacchanda and thus kama can overtake one and > make one exit Jhana. ------- N: I think in the case of all stages one is 'aloof' from sense objects. Is the goal not to be free from them? ------- > > A: d) lets not forget that Buddha has ridiculed "see nothing, hear > nothing" training of Brahman Parasivi in MN152. I do NOT think that > the Buddha would ridicule what he is said to have taught himself. > > e) The pali formulas for 1st Jhana do NOT include entering catatonic > state without seeing or hearing. Only in the aruppa stages does one > transcend RUPASANNA, PATIGHASANNA and NANATTASANNA. ------- N: The aruupa jhaanas have meditation subjects not connected with rupa, such as kasinas one has to look at first. These stages are more refined and calmer. ---------- > > A: f) Re: Insight. Lets read MN111, MN64 AN9.36 and so on. > > g) In MN43 it is said that when one is freed from faculties one sees > with wisdom aruppa stages. Few paragraphs below the faculties are > explained as 5 faculties. ------- N: Here different meanings of sign and signless are given in different contexts. Freedom of mind that is signless, animitta: it can mean phala samaapatti, experiencing nibbaana with phalacittas. Or, to be without defilements, since defilements are 'sign makers'. (See B.B. Mulapriyayasutta, p. 6) All this requires a detailed study. It is not said that one sees arupa stages. -------- > > A: h) Even in VsM there is admitted that 5 sense work in Jhana > (esp. 1- > 3) which is why they are not impertubable and only aruppa stages are. --------- N: In the preparation of the jhaana one looks at the kasina, etc. Rupaavacara citta is a different plane of citta it is not kaamaavacara citta, citta that experiences sense objects. ------- Nina. #94850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc nilovg Hi Herman, delineate is not so clear. Op 12-jan-2009, om 11:47 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Now, when there is the eye, when there are forms, when there is > eye-consciousness, it is possible that one will delineate a > delineation of contact.1 ------ 1. The artificiality of this phrase — "delineate a delineation" — seems intentional. It underlines the artifice implicit in the process by which the mind, in singling out events, turns them into discrete things. (MN18 as found on ATO). ------- N The PTS: instead of delineation of contact>, it has: manifestation of sensory impingement.> the last word is the > translation of phassa which is not so correct. B.B.: the manifestation of contact. B.b. gives the Pali: phassapa~n~natti.m pa~n`naapessati. This is one way of showing D.O.: contact, feeling etc. ----- Nina. #94851 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama rupa in daily life, continuation nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 11-jan-2009, om 18:34 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Recently I doubt whether the way I live is a proper way. > But there are also moments when all is clear. Then I really appreciate > the way Ajahn Sujin , you and other friends here explain Dhamma. ------ N: Sometimes people wonder whether they should adopt a different way of life, I know. So long as one relaizes that this is thinking that is a dhamma, not self. Circumstances, styles of life, all this is conditioned, accumulations. Trying to change one's life: with understanding or with attachment to a quick result? That is the question. > ---------- > L: Generally the consideration of akusala dhammas as they arise in > daily > life is very helpful and beneficial for me. ------- N: The Buddha taught so that people could develop their 'own' understanding. In one's own situation. ---------- > L: Is pariyatti just firm remembrance of what we've learned or it's > firm remembrance with wise consideration? ------ N: It is learning about realities as they occur in one's life. There has to be wise consideration. Firm remembrance of what one has learnt is one of the proximate causes of sati. -------- > L: Remembering nama and rupa and applying it in daily life is more > pariyatti or more patipati? -------- N: It depends how you apply what was understood. When sammaa sati arises which is directly aware of a characteristic of nama or rupa, there is pa.tipatti. ------ Nina. #94852 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc TGrand458@... Hi Nina In a message dated 1/12/2009 1:30:10 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: There is certainly impinging of a rupa on a sense-door, but when using the word phassa, translated as contact, a cetasika is meant with a specific function. It accompanies eacch citta and assists the citta to experience an object. In the sutta we read: the coming together, and this is the manifestation of phassa. When there is the coming together, we know that there is phassa 'contacting' that object. ------ Nina. .................................................... TG: The Suttas say that "phassa" (contact) is -- the coming together, the meeting of three things..." It seems to me not entirely unreasonable that such a coming together happens "in the mind." Yet the components of this coming together vary between the mental and physical. My Question... Is there some place in the Suttas where "phassa" is described as purely nama? If not, then calling "phassa" a "nama" seems a stretch. Thanks. TG OUT #94853 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Nina) - TG: The Suttas say that "phassa" (contact) is -- the coming together, the meeting of three things..." It seems to me not entirely unreasonable that such a coming together happens "in the mind." Yet the components of this coming together vary between the mental and physical. My Question... Is there some place in the Suttas where "phassa" is described as purely nama? If not, then calling "phassa" a "nama" seems a stretch. ------------------------------------------ Howard: TG, I had answered that in the affirmative: What I wrote was <> (That "mentality" is nama.) -------------------------------------------- Thanks. TG OUT ============================ With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94854 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:01 am Subject: AS time nichiconn Dear Friends, Nyanaponika continues, 3. , that is, "arisen" in the sense of "opportunity made". It includes (a) that an opportunity is made and (b) that an opportunity is made. a. The first is the kamma of the past by which an opportunity is made for the arising of its corresponding kammic result. The Athasaalinii says (p.66): "Though being a thing of the past it excludes any other kammic result and makes an opportunity only for its own result." That is to say, though being past, it still exercises a selective and purposive function. Though not being "real" in the sense of present existence, on account of its being "active" in the above sense it has to be included in that wider conception of "actuality" implied by the term . This past kamma "by which an opportunity is made" is identical with that of the previous division ("gone afer having experienced"). The difference is that here the persisting of the past kamma refers to its corresponding kammic result (vipaaka), while in the previous category the other effects of that past kamma have been considered. ... to be continued, connie #94855 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:02 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Karunadasa continues: One implication that follows from the conditionality of the dhammas as discussed so far is that they invariably arise as clusters. This is true of both mental and material dhammas. Hence it is that whenever consciousness (citta) arises, together with it there arise at least seven mental concomitants (cetasika), namely, contact (phassa), sensation (vedana), perception (sanna), volition (cetana), one-pointedness (ekaggata), psychic life (arupa-jivitindriya), and attention (manasikara). These seven are called universal mental factors (sabbacitta-sadharana) because they are invariably present even in the most minimal unit of consciousness. Thus a psychic instance can never occur with less than eight constituents, i.e. consciousness and its seven invariable concomitants. Their relation is one of necessary conascence (sahajata). We thus can see that even the smallest psychic unit or moment of consciousness turns out to be a complex correlational system. In the same way, the smallest unit of matter, which is called the basic octad (suddhatthaka), is in the ultimate analysis a cluster of (eight) material elements, namely, the four primary elements -- earth, water, fire, and air -- and four of the secondaries, colour, odour, taste, and nutritive essence (oja). None of these eight material elements arises singly because they are necessarily conascent (niyata-sahajata) and positionally inseparable (padesato avinibbhoga).106 It will thus be seen that in the sphere of mind as well as in the domain of matter there are no solitary phenomena. 106. See A Manual of Abhidhamma (trans. of ADS), Narada Thera (Colombo, 1956), pp.79ff.; Karunadasa, Buddhist Analysis of Matter, pp.155ff. ...to be continued, connie #94856 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc TGrand458@... Hi Howard Thanks for the repost! TG OUT #94857 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:14 am Subject: Re: nama rupa in daily life, continuation szmicio Dear Nina > > L: Remembering nama and rupa and applying it in daily life is more > > pariyatti or more patipati? > -------- > N: It depends how you apply what was understood. When sammaa sati > arises which is directly aware of a characteristic of nama or rupa, > there is pa.tipatti. > ------ and what is pativeda then? Is it a moment of ~nanas? can you explain the difference between first ~nana, naama-ruupa- pariccheda-~nana and first moments of satipatthana which we've just discussed. how many moments of satipatthana have to be first to condition naama- ruupa-pariccheda-~nana? Best wishes Lukas #94858 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc TGrand458@... Hi Scott In a message dated 1/11/2009 7:27:47 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Scott: I'm going with the Abhidhamma on this one, Howard. Phassa is a mental factor (cetasika). Never ruupa. .................................................................... TG: I'm going to have to concede the thrust of this one to you for now as the Sutta does literally state contact as a mental factor. I screwed up a couple of times yesterday. Yikes. TG OUT #94859 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:48 am Subject: Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc scottduncan2 Dear TG, Regarding: TG: "I'm going to have to concede the thrust of this one to you for now as the Sutta does literally state contact as a mental factor. I screwed up a couple of times yesterday. Yikes." Scott: No worries. I'm really having a heck of a time finding either the A.t.thaanaparikappa Sutta or A"nguttara 'i 222.' I'll keep searching. Sincerely, Scott. #94860 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, >Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 10-jan-2009, om 18:56 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > Dear Nina, Howard and all, > > > > b) MahaMoggallana in Vinaya Pj 4 said that he has HEARD while in 4th > > to base of infinite consciousness (impertubable). The Buddha has > > confirmed. > ------- > N: I cannot trace this text, but can it be heard with divine ear? > That is a different matter. > -------- It is in Vinaya regarding the story about declaring attainments. Parajika 4 if I remember correctly. Also, the MahaMoggallana heard elephants WHILE in impertubable concentration. The monks didn't believe him so the Buddha had to come and confirm. > > > > A: c) Sound IS a thorn because it IS heard and when one is in 1st > > Jhana > > one isn't far from kamacchanda and thus kama can overtake one and > > make one exit Jhana. > ------- > N: I think in the case of all stages one is 'aloof' from sense > objects. Is the goal not to be free from them? > ------- Aloof from KAMA or KAMAchanda. DESIRE for sensuality is different from bare consciousness of them. "The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality, not the beautiful sensual pleasures found in the world. The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. The beauties remain as they are in the world, while the wise, in this regard, subdue their desire." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html > > A: d) lets not forget that Buddha has ridiculed "see nothing, hear > > nothing" training of Brahman Parasivi in MN152. I do NOT think that > > the Buddha would ridicule what he is said to have taught himself. > > > > e) The pali formulas for 1st Jhana do NOT include entering catatonic > > state without seeing or hearing. Only in the aruppa stages does one > > transcend RUPASANNA, PATIGHASANNA and NANATTASANNA. > ------- > N: The aruupa jhaanas have meditation subjects not connected with > rupa, such as kasinas one has to look at first. These stages are >more refined and calmer. > Kasina are not the only method of meditation. Anapanasati can lead to all aruppa attainments as well (dipa sutta) > > > > A: f) Re: Insight. Lets read MN111, MN64 AN9.36 and so on. > > > > g) In MN43 it is said that when one is freed from faculties one sees > > with wisdom aruppa stages. Few paragraphs below the faculties are > > explained as 5 faculties. > ------- > N: Here different meanings of sign and signless are given in > different contexts. Freedom of mind that is signless, animitta: it > can mean phala samaapatti, experiencing nibbaana with phalacittas. > Or, to be without defilements, since defilements are 'sign makers'. > (See B.B. Mulapriyayasutta, p. 6) All this requires a detailed study. > It is not said that one sees arupa stages. > -------- > Can you explain what you have said? It doesn't seem to be connected with what I am saying. Visuddhimagga (X, 19) states [i]"In fact it is because they [recognitions of sense impressions, pa.tighasa~n~naa] have not been abandoned already before this [immaterial attainment, aruupa jhana] that it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhana (AN v,135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the imperturbability (see Vbh. 135) of the immaterial attainments and their state of peaceful liberation are mentioned (MN i,33), and that Alara Kalama neither saw the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them while he was in an immaterial attainment (DN ii, 130)." [/i] With best wishes, Alex #94861 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc nilovg Hi TG and Howard, Op 12-jan-2009, om 17:59 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > TG, I had answered that in the affirmative: What I wrote was < MN 9, > you will find the following: "Feeling, perception, volition, > contact and > attention — these are called mentality." So, you see, contact is > listed as > nama.>> (That "mentality" is nama.) ----- N: That answers your question, TG. Nina #94862 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama rupa in daily life, continuation nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 12-jan-2009, om 18:14 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > and what is pativeda then? Is it a moment of ~nanas? ------ N: It is the direct realization of the truth. It is the result of the practice of vipassanaa. The vipassana ~naanas go right up to enlightenment. ------- > > L: can you explain the difference between first ~nana, naama-ruupa- > pariccheda-~nana and first moments of satipatthana which we've just > discussed. > how many moments of satipatthana have to be first to condition naama- > ruupa-pariccheda-~nana? ------- N: We cannot count them and it depends on the accumulated understanding. For sure, its development is very, very gradual. Remember Kh Sujin saying: little by little there will be more understanding. The first stage of insight is the result of many, many moments of satipatthaana. Some people think that it is easy to know that rupa does not know anything and that nama experiences. But this has to be directly realized by pa~n~naa, not by a self who thinks. Usually it seems that many objects appear together, but when sati arises, one can understand that only one reality at a time can be object. Sati is a dhamma, it cannot be directed. It arises unplanned, unexpectedly. Just like all objects now, they arise unplanned, unexpectedly. Who knows the next moment? It may be seeing, it may be dying-consciousness. Nina. #94863 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana nilovg Dear Alex, Op 12-jan-2009, om 19:47 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > ) MahaMoggallana in Vinaya Pj 4 said that he has HEARD while in 4th > > > to base of infinite consciousness (impertubable). The Buddha has > > > confirmed. > > ------- > > N: I cannot trace this text, but can it be heard with divine ear? > > That is a different matter. > > -------- > It is in Vinaya regarding the story about declaring attainments. > Parajika 4 if I remember correctly. Also, the MahaMoggallana heard > elephants WHILE in impertubable concentration. The monks didn't > believe him so the Buddha had to come and confirm. ------- N: Yes, very interesting. It is at the end of Defeat (p. 190). The Buddha said that he was not wholly purified. Co states that he had not purified himself well in the obstructions to contemplation<... and rising up from musing and hearing the sound of the elephants, he heard it between the attainments. Of this he was aware.> Jhanacitta is another plane of citta, and it does not experience colour, sound, etc. like we experience now. If it had the same objects as we experience now, what is the use of jhana? But mental images of coloured disks can be 'seen' with the jhana eye. --------. > > ------- > > N: I think in the case of all stages one is 'aloof' from sense > > objects. Is the goal not to be free from them? > > ------- > > A: Aloof from KAMA or KAMAchanda. DESIRE for sensuality is different > from bare consciousness of them. ------- N: See above, a different plane of citta. -------- > > A: "The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality, not the > beautiful > sensual pleasures found in the world. > The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. The beauties > remain as they are in the world, > while the wise, in this regard, subdue their desire." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html -------- N: True, the defilements is not in the object, but we are discussing now jhanacitta and its object. -------- > > > > ------- > > N: The aruupa jhaanas have meditation subjects not connected with > > rupa, such as kasinas one has to look at first. These stages are > >more refined and calmer. > > > Kasina are not the only method of meditation. Anapanasati can lead to > all aruppa attainments as well (dipa sutta) ------- N: but the object of anapanasati is not : infinite space, infinite consciousness, etc. ------- > > > > > > g) In MN43 it is said that when one is freed from faculties one > sees > > > with wisdom aruppa stages. Few paragraphs below the faculties are > > > explained as 5 faculties. > > ------- > > N: Here different meanings of sign and signless are given in > > different contexts. Freedom of mind that is signless, animitta: it > > can mean phala samaapatti, experiencing nibbaana with phalacittas. > > Or, to be without defilements, since defilements are 'sign makers'. > > (See B.B. Mulapriyayasutta, p. 6) All this requires a detailed > study. > > It is not said that one sees arupa stages. > > -------- > > > > Can you explain what you have said? It doesn't seem to be connected > with what I am saying. N: That would take a long time to study this sutta and all the words used. ------ > > A: Visuddhimagga (X, 19) states > > [i]"In fact it is because they [recognitions of sense impressions, > pa.tighasa~n~naa] have not been abandoned already before this > [immaterial attainment, aruupa jhana] that it was said by the Blessed > One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhana (AN v,135). ------- N: We should also read X, 17: and X, 18: < Or alternatively, though these are also not to be found in one who has attained the fine material sphere, still their not being there is not due to their having been abandoned; for development of the fine-material sphere does not lead to fading of greed for materiality, and the occurrence of those [fine-material jhanas] is actually dependent on materiality. But this development [of the immaterial] does lead to the fading of greed for materiality....> Rupajhanas have meditation subjects still dependent on materiality. But they do not experience sense objects. That is no problem. ------- > > A: And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the > imperturbability (see Vbh. 135) of the immaterial attainments and > their state of peaceful liberation are mentioned (MN i,33), and that > Alara Kalama neither saw the five hundred carts that passed close by > him nor heard the sound of them while he was in an immaterial > attainment (DN ii, 130)." [/i] ------- N: Quite true. Now we know why they are imperturbable. Nina. #94864 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: cornerstone egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/1/13 : > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 1/12/2009 6:10:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > One of the reasons Howard's aunt can detect the ingredients, is that > she has previously tasted them, individually, not as part of the > whole. That is a luxury not even panna is afforded, there is no > possibility of isolating individual characteristics of an experience > and know them as they would be if the other characteristics weren't > there. In any "mind moment", all factors of that moment are present > and mutually conditioning, and that moment is known as a whole. > ============================ > Well, I can see an alternative way of thinking about this. Suppose one > has tasted a variety of quite different dishes all of which have tumeric (or > pepper, or salt, or garlic, or whatever) What is important in relation to the experience of ye average run-of-the-mill person, is that they do not know upfront what the component ingredients of experience are. It is only because we have been privileged to hear from those who have experienced ever increasing refined and concentrated states that we know the names of some of the ingredients. But we do not know the flavours of those states, until they have been experienced in those refined and concentrated states. If I give an Indian dish to an Eskimo, and say, this dish has turmeric, pepper, salt and garlic in it, they have no way of distinguishing one from the other. as an ingredient, and then one tastes > an entirely new dish that that as an ingredient. I think the taster might > well distinguish that ingredient, even though it had never been tasted > individually. > Likewise, for example, if one has "tasted" numerous mind states, with > some pleasant, some unpleasant, and some neutral, along with a variety of other > varying features, and then a new pleasant state arises, I think that the > pleasantness would be detected (in fact, we KNOW that is so), even though > pleasantness in isolation has never been and never will be detected. > You make very good and relevant points. It is only through differences that we identify ingredients. It is only when the Eskimo gets a dish with the garlic missing, that they are able to know what garlic is. We know things through their absence. This helps to explain the "difficulty" of attaining jhana, and upon having reached the first stages of it, the difficulty of reaching more refined and concentrated states of awareness. We do not know what discursive thinking is until it has ceased, and if we do not know the way discursive speech arises and ceases, progress takes the form of a lottery. Likewise with all the stages of jhana. We do not know that each stage is still a compound experience, because we do not know the individual factors. It is only through concerted effort and the ability to repeat what has been previously experienced, that we notice that one state is different from another, that one state differs from another by what is absent. Cheers Herman #94865 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana truth_aerator Dear Nina > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 12-jan-2009, om 19:47 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > ) MahaMoggallana in Vinaya Pj 4 said that he has HEARD while in >4th > > > > to base of infinite consciousness (impertubable). The Buddha >has > > > > confirmed. > > > ------- > > > N: I cannot trace this text, but can it be heard with divine >ear? > > > That is a different matter. > > > -------- > > It is in Vinaya regarding the story about declaring attainments. > > Parajika 4 if I remember correctly. Also, the MahaMoggallana heard > > elephants WHILE in impertubable concentration. The monks didn't > > believe him so the Buddha had to come and confirm. > ------- > N: Yes, very interesting. It is at the end of Defeat (p. 190). The > Buddha said that he was not wholly purified. Co states that he had > not purified himself well in the obstructions to contemplation<... The impertubable means 4th Jhana to base of infinite consciousness. Him not having samadhi fully purified = possibly being in the lower impertubable (4th). > and rising up from musing and hearing the sound of the elephants, >he heard it between the attainments. No, Nina. The whole point is that he has heard the sound WHILE in the attainment. > > > ------- > > > N: I think in the case of all stages one is 'aloof' from sense > > > objects. Is the goal not to be free from them? > > > ------- > > > > A: Aloof from KAMA or KAMAchanda. DESIRE for sensuality is different > > from bare consciousness of them. > ------- > N: See above, a different plane of citta. > -------- In a sense of sensual perceptions, but not 5 sense vinnana. > N: We should also read X, 17: in one who has entered the first jhaana, etc., either; for > consciousness at that time does not occur by way of the five doors...> > and X, 18: < Or alternatively, though these are also not to be found > in one who has attained the fine material sphere, still their not > being there is not due to their having been abandoned; for > development of the fine-material sphere does not lead to fading of > greed for materiality, and the occurrence of those [fine-material > jhanas] is actually dependent on materiality. But this development > [of the immaterial] does lead to the fading of greed for > materiality....> > Rupajhanas have meditation subjects still dependent on materiality. > But they do not experience sense objects. That is no problem. > ------- They do experience and experience of MahaMoggallana is one such example. With metta, Alex #94866 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Void, Coreless, Insubstantial, etc egberdina Hi TG 2009/1/13 : > Hi Scott > > > In a message dated 1/11/2009 7:27:47 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > scduncan@... writes: > > Scott: I'm going with the Abhidhamma on this one, Howard. Phassa is a > mental factor (cetasika). Never ruupa. > > .................................................................... > > > TG: I'm going to have to concede the thrust of this one to you for now as > the Sutta does literally state contact as a mental factor. > > > I screwed up a couple of times yesterday. Yikes. I wouldn't worry about it. (and I don't think you do). Until whether phassa is a nama or a rupa makes a practical difference on the path, it is just a classification, a matter of definition, a matter of rote learning. Much like the question "Is a whale a fish?" may absorb one while in the middle of the Sahara desert. :-) Cheers Herman #94867 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:48 pm Subject: A sutta question...or two reverendagga... Hi Everybody! The deciples whom Ven.Gotama charged with going forth and expounding the dhamma,50 or 60? some say 50 some 60. also... i have heard that there is a sutta where Ven. Gotama says o.k. to smoking tobacco.They wanted to know if they could smoke tobacco to keep warm... true? Thanks Everybody! Om Namah Dhamma Gotama! bhikkhu aggacitto #94868 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:31 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, I saw poor old Fijji on the news - hope everything is getting back to normal now. -------------- KH: > > The big question that needs to be asked and answered is, "Why is it > so important that dhammas are - or are not - absolutely real?" Why > are people so adamant about it one way or the other? Why were people > prepared to split the sangha into two camps (Mahayana and Theravada) > over it? > > I don't know the publicly acknowledged answer to this big question. > It seems to me, however, that the no-paramattha-dhammas option leaves > the gate open for eternity belief. .... S: Interesting..... --------------- Yes, but I don't know if I am the right person to say more about it. I don't always say things in the appropriate, friendly, considerate, way. ---------------------- KH: > > > You see, the teaching of conditioned dhammas (citta, cetasika and > rupa) shows how there can be a world (a reality) without sentient > beings. There are actions and there are results of actions, but the > only actors and experiencers-of-results are these fleeting, > conditioned dhammas. End of story! End of belief in us sentient > beings! > > As I see it, Nagarjuna and his followers found a way around this > teaching. They proclaimed that conditioned dhammas were no more real > than sentient beings. And so the explanation of how there could be > kamma and vipaka without sentient beings fell flat. Back to square > one! > > Are you with me so far? :-) S: > I think so.... Conditioned dhammas were no more real, so no kamma and vipaka.....so....eternity belief? -------------------- I wasn't thinking of it quite that way, but your version sounds plausible. :-) We can't really say what the world would have been like if there hadn't been absolute realities can we? Any theory of that kind would be baseless speculation. -------------------- S: > I'll look forward to any further elaborations.... ------------------- I have deleted my initial elaborations, but might try again later. Maybe I could just point out the obvious snowball affect: Whenever one piece of the paramattha-dhamma teaching is rejected other pieces must inevitably be rejected with it. And so it goes until nothing recognizable is left. I think we can see that happen, not just here, but everywhere where the Dhamma is discussed. Until K Sujin brought our attention to the way the Dhamma was actually taught in the texts, we didn't even know we were rejecting it. Ken H PS: Sorry for my tardiness of late. So many distractions at this time of year! I will get back into the swing of things eventually. #94869 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:57 am Subject: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nilovg Dear friends, Q. : What is the difference between the practice which is natural and the practice which is unnatural? S. : At this moment you are sitting in a natural way and you may be aware of realities which appear, such as softness or hardness, presenting themselves through the bodysense, or visible object appearing through the eyesense. All these dhammas appear naturally. However, someone’s practice is unnatural if he believes, while he develops satipatthåna, that he should sit crosslegged, in the lotus position, and that he should concentrate on specific realities. There is desire when a person selects realities which have not arisen yet as objects of awareness. He neglects to be aware of realities which appear already, such as seeing, hearing, visible object, sound, odour, flavour, cold, heat, softness or hardness. Even if there is only a slight amount of wrong understanding, it conditions clinging and this hides the truth. In that case paññå cannot arise and know the dhammas appearing at that moment. People who develop satipatthåna should know precisely the difference between the moment of forgetfulness, when there is no sati, and the moment when there is sati. Otherwise satipatthåna cannot be developed. If one is usually forgetful one is bound to be forgetful again. Someone may wish to select an object in order to concentrate on it, but this is not the way to develop satipatthåna. We should have right understanding of the moment when there is forgetfulness, no sati, that is, when we do not know the characteristics of realities appearing in daily life, such as seeing or hearing. ******** Nina. #94870 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:16 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (41) nilovg Dear friends, Walshe: DN 33.1.10(41) 'Three happy rebirths:*1046 There are beings who, having continually produced happiness now dwell in happiness, such as devas of the Brahmaa group. There are beings who are overflowing with happiness, drenched with it, full of it, immersed in it, so that they occasionally exclaim: 'Oh what bliss!' such as the Radiant devas. There are beings immersed in happiness, who, supremely blissful, experience only perfect happiness, such as the Lustrous devas. Tisso sukhuupapattiyo [sukhupapattiyo (syaa. pii. ka.)] â€" santaavuso sattaa [sattaa sukha.m (syaa. ka.m.)] uppaadetvaa uppaadetvaa sukha.m viharanti, seyyathaapi devaa brahmakaayikaa. Aya.m pa.thamaa sukhuupapatti. Santaavuso, sattaa sukhena abhisannaa parisannaa paripuuraa paripphu.taa. Te kadaaci karahaci udaana.m udaanenti nti , seyyathaapi devaa aabhassaraa. Aya.m dutiyaa sukhuupapatti. Santaavuso, sattaa sukhena abhisannaa parisannaa paripuuraa paripphu.taa. Te santa.myeva tusitaa [santusitaa (syaa. ka.m.)] sukha.m [cittasukha.m (syaa. ka.)] pa.tisa.mvedenti, seyyathaapi devaa subhaki.nhaa. Aya.m tatiyaa sukhuupapatti . ------- The Co. and subco elaborate further on the three uprisings of happiness, sukha, which is the result of the ruupaavacaara kusala cittas of the first three stages of jhaana. When the jhaana does not decline it can produce result in the form of a happy rebirth in one of the brahma planes. As higher stages of jhaana are attained, jhaanafactors are abandoned. At the second stage of jhaana (of the fourfold system) applied thought and discursive thought are abandoned. At the third stage rapture, piiti, is abandoned but there is still happy feeling, sukha. At the fourth stage happy feeling, sukha, is abandoned. Here the sutta and co. do not deal with the fourth stage of jhaana, since they explain the happiness, sukha, that is the result of the first three stages of ruupaavacaara kusala citta. N: The Co. explains that, after having generated happiness, they dwell in happiness. They have produced the first stage of jhaana ‘below’ and they experience the happiness of vipaaka-jhaana ‘above’. The subco explains he.t.tha, below, and upari, above. They cultivated ruupajhaana in the planes of humans or devas, and these produce result as rebirth in higher planes, the brahmaplanes. ------- As to the sutta words: the devas of the brahma group, devaa brahmakaayikaa, these are beings reborn as a result of the first jhaana, and this rebirth occurs in the first three heavenly planes of the brahma world. As to the second group, as a result of the second jhaana one can be reborn in three classes of brahma planes, the highest of which is the plane of the radiant devas, aabhassara devas. As the sutta states: < There are beings who are overflowing with happiness, drenched with it, full of it, immersed in it, so that they occasionally exclaim: 'Oh what bliss!'> They are as it were immersed in happiness, and the Co uses the word tinta, moistened. The subco remarks that the happiness of vipaaka is more peaceful and more excellent than the happiness of kusala. The co states that for them clinging to becoming (bhava-lobho) may arise, and therefore the sutta states that some of them sometimes exclaim ‘O bliss’. They express such words with emotion: udaana.m udanenti. The subco : their happiness is very intense since it goes together with piiti, rapture. There is citta with desire that greatly clings to becoming. -------- Co: As to the third group, these are ‘ beings immersed in happiness, who, supremely blissful, experience only perfect happiness, such as the lustrous devas (subha ki.nha)’. As result of the third jhaana one can be reborn in three classes of brahma planes, the highest of which is the Lustrous devas. The Co states that they are contented, not wishing for a higher happiness. subco: At this stage there is great peace, since there are no applied thought and discursive thought which agitate, and also piiti, rapture, that gives intense joy, has been abandoned. Without piiti there is perfect happiness and contentment. It is said that they are contented, because there is no happiness more exalted than this happiness. -------- N: The ruupa-jhaanacitta of the highest stage is not accompanied by happy feeling but by upekkhaa, indifferent feeling. This stage is more peaceful and refined, but here only the results of the first three stages of jhaana are spoken of. As we read, the second group may be attached to the intense happiness that goes together with piiti, rapture, and this induces clinging to becoming. Keen pa~n~naa is needed to discern when there is the happiness of jhaana and when happiness arising with lobha-muulacitta. When one continues relishing such happiness, there is a danger of deluding oneself. One may be removed further and further away from the goal. The goal of the whole of the teachings is detachment. --------- Co: Sukhuupapattiyoti sukhappa.tilaabhaa. Uppaadetvaa uppaadetvaa sukha.m viharantiiti te he.t.thaa pa.thamajjhaanasukha.m nibbattetvaa upari vipaakajjhaanasukha.m anubhavantiiti attho... ---------- Nina. #94871 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Yes, but ... In a message dated 1/13/2009 3:57:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, Q. : What is the difference between the practice which is natural and the practice which is unnatural? S. : At this moment you are sitting in a natural way and you may be aware of realities which appear, such as softness or hardness, presenting themselves through the bodysense, or visible object appearing through the eyesense. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, you may be aware of what's going on ... or you may not. That's true for everyone. Those who intend to be aware must do more. They must hold the hindrances in check. ---------------------------------------------------- All these dhammas appear naturally. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Experience is ongoing. But attention and mindfulness need not be. ---------------------------------------------- However, someone’s practice is unnatural if he believes, while he develops satipatthÃ¥na, that he should sit crosslegged, in the lotus position, and that he should concentrate on specific realities. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, yes, but ... 1) What of kasinas? Did the Buddha not suggest their construction and use, and are they not selected and specific? Is that "natural"? 2) What of attending (specially) to the body (i.e., bodily sensations, movement, positions) and especially the breath? Is that not selected and specific? And what of Ajahn Naeb's teachings of keeping the body motionless, noting the discomfort that arises, the aversion, the desire to move? Is that "natural"? 3) What of guarding the senses to distinguish kusala from akusala and to engage in the four right efforts? Is that "natural"? 4) What of guarding the mind to avoid getting lost in thought or in sloth & torpor? Is that "natural"? More generally, is any intentional action "natural"? What of intentionally refraining from harmful and hurtful words and action? Is that "natural"? Isn't it "natural" to not protect the mind and to just do whatever feels good?!! The Buddha didn't teach the pop-mysticism of "going with the flow," but of doing the right things and resisting evil. ---------------------------------------------------- There is desire when a person selects realities which have not arisen yet as objects of awareness. He neglects to be aware of realities which appear already, such as seeing, hearing, visible object, sound, odour, flavour, cold, heat, softness or hardness. Even if there is only a slight amount of wrong understanding, it conditions clinging and this hides the truth. In that case paññå cannot arise and know the dhammas appearing at that moment. People who develop satipatthÃ¥na should know precisely the difference between the moment of forgetfulness, when there is no sati, and the moment when there is sati. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that is important. It comes about only if one fosters the habit of paying close attention. -------------------------------------------------- Otherwise satipatthÃ¥na cannot be developed. If one is usually forgetful one is bound to be forgetful again. Someone may wish to select an object in order to concentrate on it, but this is not the way to develop satipatthÃ¥na. We should have right understanding of the moment when there is forgetfulness, no sati, that is, when we do not know the characteristics of realities appearing in daily life, such as seeing or hearing. ******** Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) #94872 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:25 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "19. Another may be controlled in his mental behaviour, and his control in worshipping at shrines, etc., evident to all. For when one who is uncontrolled in mind pays homage at a shrine or at an Enlightenment Tree or to his elders, he does not do it carefully, and he sits in the Dhamma-preaching pavillion with mind astray or nodding, while one whose mind is controlled pays homage carefully and deliberately, listens to Dhamma attentively, remembering it, and evincing the confidence in his mind through his body or his speech. So another may be only controlled in his mental behaviour, though his bodily and verbal behaviour are not controlled. Then the latter should be ignored and the control in his mental behaviour remembered." The Path of Purity. "Another man is calm in mental behaviour, which is manifest to all in the way he salutes the shrine, and in other acts. For he whose mind is not calm salutes the shrine or the Tree of Knowledge or the Elders without showing respect, or he sits down wavering in mind, or dozes off in the pavilion where the Doctrine is preached. On the other hand, he who is calm in mind salutes them in faith and with respect, he listens to the Law with attentive ears, making it his own, and working peace of mind by deed and word. Thus to some only the mental behaviour is calm, the behaviour in body and speech is not; (here) the former should be recollected, the latter being disregarded." Ekaccassa manosamaacaarova upasanto hoti, upasantabhaavo cassa cetiyavandanaadiisu sabbajanassa paaka.to hoti. Yo hi avuupasantacitto hoti, so cetiya.m vaa bodhi.m vaa there vaa vandamaano na sakkacca.m vandati, dhammassavanama.n.dape vikkhittacitto vaa pacalaayanto vaa nisiidati. Upasantacitto pana okappetvaa vandati, ohitasoto a.t.thi.mkatvaa kaayena vaa vaacaaya vaa cittappasaada.m karonto dhamma.m su.naati. Iti ekaccassa manosamaacaarova upasanto hoti, kaayavaciisamaacaaraa avuupasantaa honti, tassa te acintetvaa manosamaacaaravuupasamoyeva anussaritabbo. Sincerely, Scott. #94873 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:52 am Subject: Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 robmoult Hi All, From my paper ===== Where Does the Mind Reside? This conference has touched upon the subject of cellular memory, which is defined by Wikipedia as "the hypothesis that such things as memories, habits, interests, and tastes may somehow be stored in all the cells of human bodies, not only in the brain. The suggestion is based largely around anecdotal evidence of organ transplants after which the recipient was reported to have developed new habits or memories." This raises the interesting question of where the mind resides according to the Theravâda doctrine. The largest and most complex of the original Abhidhamma texts is the Patthâna (Conditional Relations). This text lays out the ways in which things are related to each other. This text describes the locations of the body which supports the five senses: - The sensitive part of the eye as the physical base which supports seeing consciousness - The sensitive part of the ear as the physical base which supports hearing consciousness - The sensitive part of the tongue as physical base which supports tasting consciousness - The sensitive part of the nose as physical base which supports smelling consciousness - The sensitive part of the body as physical base which supports tactile consciousness However, when it comes to listing the part of the body which supports mind or mind consciousness, the Patthâna provides the circular definition of "that matter in dependence on which the mind element and the mind consciousness element occur". It is important to note that the text does not identify the brain or any other specific part of the body as the physical base for the mind or mind consciousness. Later texts, such as the Visuddhimagga, associate this matter with the heart and created the term, "heart-base" (hadayavatthu). People in ancient India realized that sense data had to travel in the body and the only moving thing that they could see in the body was blood. Because of this, the heart was considered to be the seat of consciousness in ancient India. This association has carried through to modern day when we speak of "loving somebody with all of our heart". It is interesting to note that the original Abhidhamma texts did not take "the easy path" of associating the mind with the heart as was the prevailing theory at the time. According to the Theravâdin view, consciousness of the unborn child begins at the moment of conception. At this moment, there is no heart or brain available to support this consciousness. At this moment, all that is available is a cell and this is "that matter in dependence on which the mind element and the mind consciousness element occurs". In other words, the Theravâdin view is that the mind can not be localized to a specific part of the body, unlike the other five senses which are centred in specific parts of the body – so the concept of "cellular memory" is not in conflict with the Theravâdin view. The traditional modern medical view that the brain is the seat of the mind has recently been challenged by "The boy with no brain". "There's a young student at this university," neurologist Professor John Lorber of Sheffield University told Science magazine in December 1980, "who has an IQ of 126, has gained a first-class honours degree in mathematics, and is socially completely normal. And yet the boy has virtually no brain." A scan revealed that the student had only 1mm of brain tissue lining the inside of his skull - fluid filled the area where the rest of his brain should have been. His was an extreme case of hydrocephalus, or "water on the brain", whereby cerebrospinal fluid fills the brain instead of circulating around it. ===== I would be interested in comments / feedback. Metta, Rob M :-) #94874 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:25 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 13-jan-2009, om 12:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > Yes, you may be aware of what's going on ... or you may not. That's > true > for everyone. Those who intend to be aware must do more. They must > hold the > hindrances in check. > ---------------------------------------------------- > N: Intend to be aware: here is the danger of the idea of self who > is aware. Self intends. > All these dhammas appear naturally. Holding the hindrances in check: that is in samatha. In vipassana: come to know them as conditioned dhammas. No you who can hold them in check, it is the function of pa~n~naa to know them as non-self. This must be emphasized from the beginning to the end. > ---------------------------------------------------- > N: However, someone’s practice is unnatural if he believes, while he > develops satipatthåna, that he should sit crosslegged, in the lotus > position, and that he should concentrate on specific realities. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Mmm, yes, but ... > 1) What of kasinas? Did the Buddha not suggest their construction and > use, and are they not selected and specific? Is that "natural"? -------- N: That is samatha, not vipassana. --------- > H: 2) What of attending (specially) to the body (i.e., bodily > sensations, > movement, positions) and especially the breath? Is that not > selected and > specific? And what of Ajahn Naeb's teachings of keeping the body > motionless, > noting the discomfort that arises, the aversion, the desire to > move? Is that > "natural"? ------- N: No, it is not the development of satipatthana of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear. There is the doing of specific things. And beware: *who* is doing these things? ------ > H: 3) What of guarding the senses to distinguish kusala from > akusala and to > engage in the four right efforts? Is that "natural"? ------ N: Sati of satipatthana is aware of nama and rupa and then there is already guarding the senses and right effort. Not a self who tries. When sound appears, there can be awareness of it as a rupa. Sound may be harsh and we may think of a person who speaks harshly to us, but if sati of satipatthana arises we shall not answer back. In fact, there are in reality no persons, not I who is insulted, only conditioned namas and rupas. What a relief. Guarding of the senses and the four right efforts are among the 37 factors leading to enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya *dhammas*. Remember: they are dhammas. The first mentioned are the four applications of mindfulness. --------- > H: 4) What of guarding the mind to avoid getting lost in thought or in > sloth & torpor? Is that "natural"? More generally, is any > intentional action > "natural"? What of intentionally refraining from harmful and > hurtful words and > action? Is that "natural"? Isn't it "natural" to not protect the > mind and to > just do whatever feels good?!! > The Buddha didn't teach the pop-mysticism of "going with the flow," > but > of doing the right things and resisting evil. > ---------------------------------------------------- > N: Doing the right things and resisting evil: through satipatthana, > and we have to remember anatta. No self who is doing this or that. I remember Phil who objects and says, what if one cannot be aware yet. But abstaining from evil is conditioned by sati, hiri, ottappa and many sobhana cetasikas whether one realizes it or not. ---------- > N: People who develop satipatthåna should know precisely the > difference > between the moment of forgetfulness, when there is no sati, and the > moment when there is sati. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, that is important. It comes about only if one fosters the > habit of > paying close attention. > -------------------------------------------------- > N: This stems from listening and considering and then there are > conditions for the arising of sati, just for a very short moment. > But this is the way to learn the difference between unawareness and > awareness. A short moment of sati and this is accumulated so that > it can arise again, unplanned, unexpectedly. ---------- Nina. #94875 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana nilovg Dear Alex, Op 13-jan-2009, om 0:02 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > The impertubable means 4th Jhana to base of infinite consciousness. > Him not having samadhi fully purified = possibly being in the lower > impertubable (4th). -------- N: The fourth ruupa jhana is not aruupajhaana. Aruupajhaana is called ane~nja, imperturbable. --------- > > N: > and rising up from musing and hearing the sound of the elephants, > >he heard it between the attainments. > > No, Nina. The whole point is that he has heard the sound WHILE in the > attainment. ------- N: Hearing sound is citta of the sensuous plane, not jhanacitta. If a person thinks that jhanacitta can hear a sound, he takes for jhanacitta what is not. He may be in a state ressembling jhana, but then pa~n~naa is needed to realize this. I just follow the texts and will not add anymore, lest I become repetitious. -------- > Nina. #94876 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:09 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, To finish the section on "The Development of the Theory": It is in the light of these observations that the question posed earlier as to whether the dhammas exhibit a unity or a plurality has to be discussed. The answer seems to veer towards both alternatives although it appears paradoxical to say so. In so far as the dhammas are distinguishable, one from another, to that extent they exhibit plurality. In so far as they are not actually separable, one from another, to that extent they exhibit unity. The reason for this situation is the methodological apparatus employed by the Abhidhammikas in explaining the nature of empirical existence. As mentioned earlier, this consists of both analysis (bheda) and synthesis (sangaha). Analysis, when not supplemented by synthesis, leads to pluralism. Synthesis, when not supplemented by analysis, leads to monism. What one finds in the Abhidhamma is a combined use of both methods. This results in a philosophical vision which beautifully transcends the dialectical opposition between monism and pluralism. connie #94877 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:09 am Subject: AS time nichiconn Dear Friends, Nyanaponika continues: b. That " an opportunity is made" is the corresponding kammic result of the past kamma. Though being a thing of the future, it nevertheless counts as "arisen" in the sense of having a definite opportunity or chance to arise. It is identical with the "things bound to arise" (uppaadino dhammaa) belonging to the above-mentioned triad in the Dhammasa'nga.nii (uppanna-tika). About these "things bound to arise," the Atthasaalinii says (p.360) that they are not to be regarded as nonexistent (natthi naama na hoti). This is another proof of the dynamic conception of actuality and time to be found in the canonical Abhidhamma and its earliest commentaries. In this third category of okaasakat'uppanna, the relation is shown between certain things of the past and of the future (leaving out the present), both regarded as "arisen." connie #94878 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:09 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/13/2009 10:20:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 13-jan-2009, om 12:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > Yes, you may be aware of what's going on ... or you may not. That's > true > for everyone. Those who intend to be aware must do more. They must > hold the > hindrances in check. > ---------------------------------------------------- > N: Intend to be aware: here is the danger of the idea of self who > is aware. Self intends. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: NO, Nina! This is not a necessity. (And, of course, there is no self to do anything.) Intending is just a mental operation. The Buddha intended loads of things. This is a grave mistake you make, IMO. ----------------------------------------------- > All these dhammas appear naturally. Holding the hindrances in check: that is in samatha. In vipassana: come to know them as conditioned dhammas. No you who can hold them in check, it is the function of pa~n~naa to know them as non-self. This must be emphasized from the beginning to the end. > ---------------------------------------------------- > N: However, someone’s practice is unnatural if he believes, while he > develops satipatthÃ¥na, that he should sit crosslegged, in the lotus > position, and that he should concentrate on specific realities. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Mmm, yes, but ... > 1) What of kasinas? Did the Buddha not suggest their construction and > use, and are they not selected and specific? Is that "natural"? -------- N: That is samatha, not vipassana. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: So? It is good and wholesome! ---------------------------------------------- --------- > H: 2) What of attending (specially) to the body (i.e., bodily > sensations, > movement, positions) and especially the breath? Is that not > selected and > specific? And what of Ajahn Naeb's teachings of keeping the body > motionless, > noting the discomfort that arises, the aversion, the desire to > move? Is that > "natural"? ------- N: No, it is not the development of satipatthana of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear. There is the doing of specific things. And beware: *who* is doing these things? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: NOBODY is doing them!! But there is (or can be) the doing. It seems to me that every time you come across the doing of something you don't like, you raise the specter of self. What about all your reading, studying, and writing, Nina! CUT THAT OUT, for *who* is doing it!!! You are very selective, Nina, in what you choose to condemn on the basis of "self" being involved.. ---------------------------------------------- ------ > H: 3) What of guarding the senses to distinguish kusala from > akusala and to > engage in the four right efforts? Is that "natural"? ------ N: Sati of satipatthana is aware of nama and rupa and then there is already guarding the senses and right effort. Not a self who tries. When sound appears, there can be awareness of it as a rupa. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Or not! ------------------------------------------- Sound may be harsh and we may think of a person who speaks harshly to us, but if sati of satipatthana arises we shall not answer back. In fact, there are in reality no persons, not I who is insulted, only conditioned namas and rupas. What a relief. Guarding of the senses and the four right efforts are among the 37 factors leading to enlightenment, bodhipakkhiya *dhammas*. Remember: they are dhammas. The first mentioned are the four applications of mindfulness. --------- > H: 4) What of guarding the mind to avoid getting lost in thought or in > sloth & torpor? Is that "natural"? More generally, is any > intentional action > "natural"? What of intentionally refraining from harmful and > hurtful words and > action? Is that "natural"? Isn't it "natural" to not protect the > mind and to > just do whatever feels good?!! > The Buddha didn't teach the pop-mysticism of "going with the flow," > but > of doing the right things and resisting evil. > ---------------------------------------------------- > N: Doing the right things and resisting evil: through satipatthana, > and we have to remember anatta. No self who is doing this or that. I remember Phil who objects and says, what if one cannot be aware yet. But abstaining from evil is conditioned by sati, hiri, ottappa and many sobhana cetasikas whether one realizes it or not. ---------- > N: People who develop satipatthÃ¥na should know precisely the > difference > between the moment of forgetfulness, when there is no sati, and the > moment when there is sati. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, that is important. It comes about only if one fosters the > habit of > paying close attention. > -------------------------------------------------- > N: This stems from listening and considering and then there are > conditions for the arising of sati, just for a very short moment. > But this is the way to learn the difference between unawareness and > awareness. A short moment of sati and this is accumulated so that > it can arise again, unplanned, unexpectedly. ---------- Nina. ============================= Nina, I appeal to you to consider alternatives to your fixed beliefs. With metta, Howard (From the Diamond Sutra) #94879 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:42 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg]sa~n~naa, was cornerstone nilovg Hi Herman, Op 9-jan-2009, om 23:01 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > If sanna can only mark whatever object arises at any > moment, we still have no way of associating one object with another > object. We still do not have the memory of daily life. Is there more > to sanna? ------- N: All those moments that are marked by sa~n~naa are connected, because each citta conditions the next citta and all of them are accompanied by sa~n~naa. There never is a moment without sa~n~naa. Is there more to sa~n~naa, you ask. When sa~n~naa accompanies kusala citta it is also kusala and when it accompanies akusala citta, it is also akusala. When you with kusala citta listen to the Dhamma or read a sutta, such moments are not lost. You can see that you remember later on what you learnt. This could not happen if there were no sa~n~naa at each moment. I cannot give a scientific explanation of this, but we just know that it happens. Sa~n~naa of each moment is not different from memory of daily life, I do not see this as a contrast. Nina. #94880 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:56 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 13-jan-2009, om 17:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > N: Intend to be aware: here is the danger of the idea of self who > > is aware. Self intends. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > NO, Nina! This is not a necessity. (And, of course, there is no > self to > do anything.) Intending is just a mental operation. The Buddha > intended loads > of things. This is a grave mistake you make, IMO. > ----------------------------------------------- > N: In theory we understand, but since we are not sotaapannas the > idea of self comes up all the time. There is clinging that may be > hardly noticeable, but there sure is. It is already an important > step if one is willing to see this and can see this. Perhaps this > is the crux of the whole debate. ------- > H: 1) What of kasinas? Did the Buddha not suggest their > construction and > > use, and are they not selected and specific? Is that "natural"? > -------- > N: That is samatha, not vipassana. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > So? It is good and wholesome! > ---------------------------------------------- > N: Certainly, but we were discussing vipassana. > --------- > ------- > N: No, it is not the development of satipatthana of the > characteristics of realities as they naturally appear. There is the > doing of specific things. And beware: *who* is doing these things? > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > NOBODY is doing them!! But there is (or can be) the doing. It seems to > me that every time you come across the doing of something you don't > like, you > raise the specter of self. What about all your reading, studying, and > writing, Nina! CUT THAT OUT, for *who* is doing it!!! You are very > selective, Nina, > in what you choose to condemn on the basis of "self" being involved.. > ---------------------------------------------- > N: Ha, ha, ha. Thanks for reminding me, very good. But to be > serious now, indeed we have to be reminded of anatta, because we > are so used to think of I am doing this. Even listening to Dhamma > recordings, it is all conditioned. Had I not come across the > teachings in Thailand, because we were posted there, I would not be > listening now. But listening is a condition for the growth of > understanding, understanding of non-self. Listening is also praised > in the suttas as a condition. Remember the four conditions for > enlightenment Jon recently posted: association with the right > person, listening, wisely considering and correct practice. > ------ > > H: 3) What of guarding the senses to distinguish kusala from > > akusala and to > > engage in the four right efforts? Is that "natural"? > ------ > N: Sati of satipatthana is aware of nama and rupa and then there is > already guarding the senses and right effort. Not a self who tries. > When sound appears, there can be awareness of it as a rupa. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Or not! > ------------------------------------------- > N: Mostly not. We have to listen again, consider again. -------- > ============================= > H: Nina, I appeal to you to consider alternatives to your fixed > beliefs. --------- N: See above about the crux of our discussion. I really feel that the right way is: being very honest to oneself and admit it when the self creeps in. Especially so when trying to do specific things to induce more sati. O.K. that is my 'fixed belief'. I feel that it is so essential 'to let sati arise because of its own conditions'. That is why I repeated: unplanned, unexpected. And it does happen in that way. But if there is a short moment of sati, be it coarse and tender, there is no idea of self does it, for that moment. But I also know that you have different accumulations and how hard not to act according to one's accumulations. We all follow our accumulations. Nina. #94881 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:26 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/13/2009 2:56:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 13-jan-2009, om 17:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > N: Intend to be aware: here is the danger of the idea of self who > > is aware. Self intends. > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > NO, Nina! This is not a necessity. (And, of course, there is no > self to > do anything.) Intending is just a mental operation. The Buddha > intended loads > of things. This is a grave mistake you make, IMO. > ----------------------------------------------- > N: In theory we understand, but since we are not sotaapannas the > idea of self comes up all the time. There is clinging that may be > hardly noticeable, but there sure is. It is already an important > step if one is willing to see this and can see this. Perhaps this > is the crux of the whole debate. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: So, we need to "keep our eyes and ears open," which expression of course really means to keep our mind open, clear, and attentive. ---------------------------------------------------- ------- > H: 1) What of kasinas? Did the Buddha not suggest their > construction and > > use, and are they not selected and specific? Is that "natural"? > -------- > N: That is samatha, not vipassana. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > So? It is good and wholesome! > ---------------------------------------------- > N: Certainly, but we were discussing vipassana. > --------- > ------- > N: No, it is not the development of satipatthana of the > characteristics of realities as they naturally appear. There is the > doing of specific things. And beware: *who* is doing these things? > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > NOBODY is doing them!! But there is (or can be) the doing. It seems to > me that every time you come across the doing of something you don't > like, you > raise the specter of self. What about all your reading, studying, and > writing, Nina! CUT THAT OUT, for *who* is doing it!!! You are very > selective, Nina, > in what you choose to condemn on the basis of "self" being involved.. > ---------------------------------------------- > N: Ha, ha, ha. Thanks for reminding me, very good. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I am gladdened (the word really fits) to see your good humor in this, Nina. :-) -------------------------------------------------- But to be > serious now, indeed we have to be reminded of anatta, because we > are so used to think of I am doing this. Even listening to Dhamma > recordings, it is all conditioned. Had I not come across the > teachings in Thailand, because we were posted there, I would not be > listening now. But listening is a condition for the growth of > understanding, understanding of non-self. Listening is also praised > in the suttas as a condition. Remember the four conditions for > enlightenment Jon recently posted: association with the right > person, listening, wisely considering and correct practice. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree, Nina, that it is very important to be again and again reminded of anatta (and anicca & dukkha as well), in multiple ways. We need constant "wake-up calls"! But we should not, IMO, let this in any way hinder appropriate action. Quite the opposite, in fact. This should spur us on. This is one reason, I believe, that the Buddha so often reminded people of samvega. ----------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > H: 3) What of guarding the senses to distinguish kusala from > > akusala and to > > engage in the four right efforts? Is that "natural"? > ------ > N: Sati of satipatthana is aware of nama and rupa and then there is > already guarding the senses and right effort. Not a self who tries. > When sound appears, there can be awareness of it as a rupa. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Or not! > ------------------------------------------- > N: Mostly not. We have to listen again, consider again. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, we do! We have to learn to pay attention. --------------------------------------------------- -------- > ============================= > H: Nina, I appeal to you to consider alternatives to your fixed > beliefs. --------- N: See above about the crux of our discussion. I really feel that the right way is: being very honest to oneself and admit it when the self creeps in. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Of course sense of self sneaks in repeatedly. I never deny this. This can be seen in part, BTW, by noting bodily sensations! ------------------------------------------------- Especially so when trying to do specific things to induce more sati. O.K. that is my 'fixed belief'. ------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) ---------------------------------------- I feel that it is so essential 'to let sati arise because of its own conditions'. ----------------------------------------- Howard: There is the need to stay alert and attentive. We must pay attention, and again & again remind ourselves to do so. ----------------------------------------- That is why I repeated: unplanned, unexpected. And it does happen in that way. But if there is a short moment of sati, be it coarse and tender, there is no idea of self does it, for that moment. --------------------------------------- Howard: Remembering to pay attention, intending to do so, reminding ourselves to do so -- this is needed! Sense of self is always around. That's the way it is. It will diminish when we see what there really is to see, and that can only happen if we train ourselves to pay attention. We *have* to be introspective. ------------------------------------------ But I also know that you have different accumulations and how hard not to act according to one's accumulations. We all follow our accumulations. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Inclinations can be changed, and if we do not, then we are lost. We need to know our inclinations for what they are, and when they are counterproductive, we need to not follow them. To know them for what they are, we *have* to pay attention, for if we blank out, we will just go with the flow, and the flow is downstream, Nina, away from the headwaters. ------------------------------------------ Nina. ======================== With metta, Howard (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) #94882 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:22 pm Subject: Suttas- the time to let go buddhatrue Hi All, I have gotten two e-mails off-list expressing some shock that I donated my Nikayas to a school library in Cairo. Here is what I wrote to one person as a way of explanation. I thought it might be of benefit to others so I will post here: While I am sure that each time you read a sutta you will discover more layers of meaning, what's the use of that? I gave up my suttas because I had already read them once and I didn't want them to become a crutch, not because I have already made up my mind about the Dhamma. You see, reading the suttas can become like a drug- you gives you a temporary high, a temporary buzz, a temporary escape from the suffering of life, but that is all just temporary. When you put the suttas away, the suffering of life comes right back. Take from example this sutta: Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." "But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right behind me." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.063.than.html So, even in the Buddha's time there were those who didn't want to separate from the Buddha and practice alone. The Buddha, his suttas, etc. become like a security blanket. I don't want to be a worthless man like that so I gave away my suttas. I already read them- now it is time to practice (as well as I can as a householder). Metta, James #94883 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:50 pm Subject: cornerstone - AN i 222 nichiconn Dear TG, All, Not to re-open a can of worms, but the UPS man just brought us our sutta. I'll skip to the 'troublesome' portion. Gradual Sayings vol.1 (PTS 2006 p.202): To be advised (iii) There may be change*, Aananda, in the four great phenomena, the elements of earth, of water, of heat, and the element of air**, but there can be no change in the Ariyan disciple blessed with unwavering loyalty to the Buddha. By "change" I mean this: that such an one should be reborn in Purgatory, in the womb of an animal or in the Realm of Petas is an impossibility. (iv) There may be change, Aananda, in the four great phenomena ... but for the Ariyan disciple blessed with unwavering loyalty to Dhamma ... to the Order, there can be no change: I mean, that such an one should be reborn ... in the Realm of Petas is an impossibility. (v) So, Aananda, one for whom you have fellow-feeling ... should be established in these three particulars. * Text should read a~n~nathatta~n, lit. 'otherness.' ** Cf. KS ii, 113 n., 152, etc. I think that second note must be referring to Kindred Sayings vol.II (PTS 2000) The sheaf of reeds (p79) and Brick Hall (p107). peace, connie #94884 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cornerstone - AN i 222 TGrand458@... Hi Connie Super Connie!!! Thanks!!! I've read the PTS version now and have yet another "take" on the meaning. I'll write back later tonight or tomorrow. TG OUT #94885 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:45 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Alberto. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > > Hi Robert E, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > wrote: > > When you say that something is "paramatha," it seems to me that there > > is a danger of heading in that direction, and that on a number of > > occasions folks have regarded the paramatha dhammas with a kind of > > reverent absoluteness that I think should only be reserved, if at all, > > for nibbana itself. > > > > I think that the Dhamma is about understanding what is actually real, > the dhammas, and that it doesn't relegate them to some sort of > undefinenable limbo where the self can safely ignore them. > > Alberto I agree that we should deal with and come to know reality as it is. However, the dhamma theory is amazingly intellectually complex. Here is a quote from the abhidhamma.org website: "In the Theravada Abhidhamma, for instance, the aggregate of corporeality (of the khandha-analysis) is broken down into twenty-eight items called rupa-dhammas. The next three aggregates -- sensation, perception, and mental formations -- are together arranged into fifty-two items called cetasikas. The fifth, consciousness, is counted as one item with eighty-nine varieties and is referred to as citta." [http://www.abhidhamma.org/dhamma_theory_philosophical_corn.htm] Is it your or anyone else's contention that this complex analysis was the result of those who created it experience all these categories first-hand, rather than formulating them intellectually through a process of philosophical deduction? Is there anyone in the present community who claims to have seen a citta close up, experienced its cetasikas first-hand, or personally counted the duration of a rupa as 7 cittas with three phases each? Is it your contention that the ancients actually experienced this, and has anyone asserted that they did? Or is it a meticulous theory created conceptually to explain in detail a logical construction of the appearances of reality? If there is no magically endowed beings who actually experience this structure, it remains an intellectual construct, and for those who study today, a matter of faith. Another point is that these dhammas were meant to be discerned directly through meditation, as expressed here in an Access to Insight article on the Sangaha: "The ninth and final chapter of the Sangaha is concerned, not with theory, but with practice. This is the Compendium of Meditation Subjects. This chapter functions as a kind of summary of the Visuddhimagga. It concisely surveys all the methods of meditation exhaustively explained in the latter work, and it sets forth condensed accounts of the stages of progress in both systems of meditation, concentration and insight. Like the masterwork it summarizes, it concludes with an account of the four types of enlightened individuals and the attainments of fruition and cessation. This arrangement of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha perhaps serves to underscore the ultimate soteriological intent of the Abhidhamma. All the theoretical analysis of mind and matter finally converges upon the practice of meditation, and the practice culminates in the attainment of the supreme goal of Buddhism, the liberation of the mind by non-clinging." [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/abhiman.html] Given the above, why is meditation mostly dismissed by Abhidhamikkas as the main method for realizing the reality of the dhammas? Is there a justification for this in the Abhidhamma or related works, or has a latter-day culture decided that meditation on such minute elements is impossible and sought an intellectual realization instead? Best, Robert ================================== #94886 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cornerstone - AN i 222 TGrand458@... Hi Connie In a message dated 1/13/2009 7:51:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, nichicon@... writes: I think that second note must be referring to Kindred Sayings vol.II (PTS 2000) The sheaf of reeds (p79) and Brick Hall (p107). .............................................. TG: I read these in KS and I didn't see how it related to the Four Great Elements or the Sutta in question particularly. TG OUT #94887 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 5:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cornerstone - AN i 222 TGrand458@... Hi Connie, Howard, All My take, in reading the PTS Sutta version is not as conclusive as I would like. But the sense I get is that when the Buddha is saying -- "there may change" in the Four Great Elements ... he means just that. It wouldn't seem to make sense, in the context I've read, for the Buddha to claim something may change if it were impossible. Why "set-up" a premise based on a fallacy...it takes to credibility out of the analogy. I don't see this sutta as containing a "contrarian" type of analogy where the Buddha speaks about something that can't change as something that can. If such were the case, its almost certain the Buddha would have explained that "set-up" within the Sutta so as to be clear. There are some Suttas, I believe, that do that type of thing. This one does not seem to. In other words, the Buddha would have something more like this ... "There may be change*, Aananda, in the four great phenomena, the elements of earth, of water, of heat, and the element of air**, but there can be no change in the Ariyan disciple blessed with unwavering loyalty to the Buddha. " (Then he would have added something like ... "still, it is impossible for the Four Great Elements to change, even more so the ariyan disciple....etc.") I don't think that this Sutta...that claims that the 'elements' CAN change, is good evidence to demonstrate that the Buddha taught they CAN'T change. ;-) Perhaps other Sutta evidence could change my outlook, but to me, this seems to be the way it is meant. TG OUT #94888 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] cornerstone egberdina Hi connie, 2009/1/14 connie : > Dear Friends, > To finish the section on "The Development of the Theory": > > It is in the light of these observations that the question posed earlier as to whether the dhammas exhibit a unity or a plurality has to be discussed. The answer seems to veer towards both alternatives although it appears paradoxical to say so. In so far as the dhammas are distinguishable, one from another, to that extent they exhibit plurality. In so far as they are not actually separable, one from another, to that extent they exhibit unity. The reason for this situation is the methodological apparatus employed by the Abhidhammikas in explaining the nature of empirical existence. As mentioned earlier, this consists of both analysis (bheda) and synthesis (sangaha). Analysis, when not supplemented by synthesis, leads to pluralism. Synthesis, when not supplemented by analysis, leads to monism. What one finds in the Abhidhamma is a combined use of both methods. This results in a philosophical vision which beautifully transcends the dialectical opposition between monism and pluralism. > I see parallels between what is written above, and the scientific debate on whether matter is wave-like or particle-like in nature. What you see is what you go looking for! The Buddha's finding: in the absence of looking, there is ...... Cheers Herman #94889 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:23 am Subject: Re: Suttas- the time to let go abhidhammika Hello James How are you? Happy New Year! I hope that you are serious about formal Buddhist practice - the step-by-step formal development of the Noble Eightfold Path. It is good to know that you have donated your Nikayas to a school library in Cairo. It in itself is an activation of Daanapaaramii, and it can qualify as one of the formal practices of reducing attachment - if you could keep up practicing this paaramii ongoingly. I think that, when you declared it was time to practice now, you meant practice of formal meditation comprising both samatha and vipassnaa. That amounts to activation of Siilapaaramii, Nikkhamapaaramii, Khantiipaaramii, Viirirapaaramii, Adhi.t.thaanapaaramii, Mettaapaaramii, and Paññaapaaramii. I also note that your declaration of your intention to pursue the practice of formal Buddhist meditation is in stark contrast to the anti-formal-practice stance of the followers or sympathisers of a lay puthujjana teacher, whom you once criticised on this forum, and whose views also seem to go against the Buddha's Theravada teachings preserved in Pali Tipitaka. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #94890 From: "sprlrt" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:20 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Robert E, > > Given the above, why is meditation mostly dismissed by Abhidhamikkas > as the main method for realizing the reality of the dhammas? Is there > a justification for this in the Abhidhamma or related works, or has a > latter-day culture decided that meditation on such minute elements is > impossible and sought an intellectual realization instead? > In the old days there were people with all the required accumulations (the right conditions) that would directly know the dhammas and attain nibbana with their eyes open just after hearing a brief exposition of the Dhamma, a few concise words on dhammas such as eye-sense, eye-object and eye-conciousness, they didn't even necessarily have to hear it from the Budhha himself. Those people with small selves (ugghatitannu puggala) put an end to their samsara, never to be born again, just like that. There were also people with medium sized selves (vipacitannu puggala) who required a middle lenght exposition of the Dhamma to condition satipatthana to arise. Nowadays, selves come in L and XL size only (neyya and padaparama puggala), it's all in tipitaka (Puggalappannati), who require lenghty and detailed Dhamma explanations and discussion (i.e. Abhidhamma) to condition the momentary eclipse of the self so that sati, any kusala actually, can arise and develop in its place. When a L or XL self sits crosslegged, eye closed, trying to concentrate hard on something which can be anything but an actual dhamma, what do you think it is accumulating, panna or avijja, kusala or akusala? The self can cling to anything, including pariyatti, accumulating more lobha/attachment in the process, insted of alobha, detachment. But proper pariyatti, studying & considering the Dhamma for the sake of understanding dhammas themselves, without expectating (the self) to gain anything, not with a result-based, self-based approach, is the main condition for sati to be able to arise and accumulate until it becomes as natural as lobha normally is, they are both conditioned and conditioning dhammas in the same way, the self can't induce nor understand them, only conditions and panna can. Alberto #94891 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:47 am Subject: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 13. nilovg Dear friends, When there is sati, one can consider, study and understand the dhammas appearing through the six doors. When someone selects a particular object in order to focus on it, he will not know that sati is non-self. When there is sati it can be aware of realities which naturally appear. When odour appears there can be awareness of odour which presents itself through the nose. It can be known as only a type of reality which arises, which appears and then disappears. Or the nåma which experiences odour can be understood as only a type of reality which presents itself. After it has experienced odour, it falls away. It is not a being, a person or self. Q. : Is it true that the sotåpanna, the person who has attained the first stage of enlightenment, does not recognize his father or mother? S. : The sotåpanna clearly realizes the dhamma which sees as a type of nåma. After seeing he knows what it is that was perceived, namely a person, a being or a thing he can think of. Thinking is another type of nåma which arises and then falls away. Is there anybody who sees and then does not know the meaning of what was seen? If that is the case the Buddha would not have recognized Ånanda or Moggallåna, or anything at all. Then there would be only the nåma which sees and no other types of nåma which recognize what was seen. However, dhammas take their own natural course, they are what they are. Apart from the nåma which sees there is after the seeing also the nåma which knows the meaning of what was seen. ******* Nina. #94892 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nilovg Dear Alberto (and Howard), I like the way you explain big selves: size L and XL. Op 14-jan-2009, om 10:20 heeft sprlrt het volgende geschreven: > Nowadays, selves come in L and XL size only (neyya and padaparama > puggala), it's all in tipitaka (Puggalappannati), who require lenghty > and detailed Dhamma explanations and discussion (i.e. Abhidhamma) to > condition the momentary eclipse of the self so that sati, any kusala > actually, can arise and develop in its place.... > > The self can cling to anything, including pariyatti, accumulating more > lobha/attachment in the process, instead of alobha, detachment. ------- N: It is sakkaaya di.t.thi, personality belief, that arises often. But it should be known when it arises. Otherwise we do not know that it is sakkaaya di.t.thi motivating the trying to do all sorts of things in order to have more sati. ---------- > A: But > proper pariyatti, studying & considering the Dhamma for the sake of > understanding dhammas themselves, without expectating (the self) to > gain anything, not with a result-based, self-based approach, is the > main condition for sati to be able to arise and accumulate until it > becomes as natural as lobha normally is, they are both conditioned and > conditioning dhammas in the same way, the self can't induce nor > understand them, only conditions and panna can. -------- N: As Howard said, also listening and considering can be done with an idea of self. But, as you explain here: there can be listening for the sake of more understanding of anattaa, not in order to gain something for oneself. Then it is done with kusala citta and there is for that moment no opportunity for sakkaaya di.t.thi. ------- Nina. #94893 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:22 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "20. But there may be another in whom not even one of these three things is controlled. Then compassion for that person should be aroused thus: 'Though he is going about in the human world now, nevertheless after a certain number of days he will find himself in [one of] the eight great hells or sixteen prominent hells'. For irritation subsides too through compassion. In yet another all three may be controlled. Then he can remember can remember any of the three in that person, whichever he likes; for the development of lovingkindness towards such a person is easy." The Path of Purity. "When any one of these three states in a person is disturbed, that person is to be pitied: 'This one now walks about in the world of men; but when a few days have passed, he will fill the eight great hells, the sixteen Ussada hells.' For through pity hatred subsides. Another man is calm in all three states; one should recollect whichever of them one wishes." Ekaccassa pana imesu tiisu dhammesu ekopi avuupasanto hoti, tasmi.m puggale 'ki~ncaapi esa idaani manussaloke carati, atha kho katipaahassa accayena a.t.thamahaanirayaso.lasaussadanirayaparipuurako bhavissatii' ti kaaru~n~na.m upa.t.thapetabba.m. Kaaru~n~nampi hi pa.ticca aaghaato vuupasammati. Ekaccassa tayopime dhammaa vuupasantaa honti, tassa ya.m ya.m icchati, ta.m ta.m anussaritabba.m. Taadise hi puggale na dukkaraa hoti mettaabhaavanaati. Sincerely, Scott. #94894 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:18 am Subject: Re: cornerstone - AN i 222 scottduncan2 Dear connie, Regarding: Gradual Sayings vol.1 (PTS 2006 p.202): To be advised "(iii) There may be change*, Aananda, in the four great phenomena, the elements of earth, of water, of heat, and the element of air**, but there can be no change in the Ariyan disciple blessed with unwavering loyalty to the Buddha. By 'change' I mean this: that such an one should be reborn in Purgatory, in the womb of an animal or in the Realm of Petas is an impossibility..." Siyaa, aananda, catunna.m mahaabhuutaana.m a~n~nathatta.m â€" pathaviidhaatuyaa aapodhaatuyaa tejodhaatuyaa vaayodhaatuyaa, na tveva buddhe aveccappasaadena samannaagatassa ariyasaavakassa siyaa a~n~nathatta.m tatrida.m a~n~nathatta.m Scott: How does one understand 'change' in relation to the four great phenomena? 'Change' is 'a~n~nathatta.m'. From the PTS PED: "A~n~nathatta (nt.) [a~n~nathaa + tta] 1. change, alteration..." "A~n~nattha (adv.) [from a~n~na = a~n~natra, adv. of place, cp. kattha, ettha] somewhere or anywhere else, elsewhere..." Scott: We know from the Abhidhamma clarifications, improvements on which are not possible, that the four great elements always arise in a group, never singly. We know that ruupa has its change depending on the relative 'strength' of any one of the four great elements arising together - that the particular great element which has prominence determines, by its characterstic, the nature of a given 'state of ruupa' (whether 'hardness' or 'softness' or what have you). We know that 'hardness' does not change into 'colour', for example - a characteristic remains and does not alter in any way. We know that the change of states is a function of rise and fall - the change is from moment-to-moment-without-a-gap. We know that the rate of rise and fall is extremely fast. We know that it is in the nature of ignorance-based thinking after perception to attribute imaginary aspects of wholeness to that which is infinitesimally and intricately varied according only to conditions. We can see that, suggested in the Paa.li, the term for 'change' has, as a 'root word' a term that implies 'elsewhere'. This suggests that indeed the change is a sequential one - the 'elsewhere' being a previous arising that has fallen away. Is there anything in the above you would correct or change (should you have an interest in clarifying this, of course)? Sincerely, Scott. #94895 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:41 am Subject: AS time nichiconn Dear Friends, Nyanaponika continues: 4. Bhuumiladdh'uppanna, that is, "arisen" in the sense of "having obtained soil", that is, fertile soil for the actual arising. This applies to potential defilements (kilesa), which are "potential" in the sense of possessing fertile soil from which they may actully sprout when the other conditions for their arising are given. This soil (bhuumi) is provided in all three planes (bhuumi) of existence by the individual's own five aggregates (khandha) as long as the respective defilements are not yet eliminated by one of the stges of awakening (stream-entry, etc.). The Visuddhimagga, in an instructive elaboration of our passage (at p.687), lays particular stress on the fact that this fertile soil for the arising of defilements consists in the individual's own life process and not in the outer world of tempting objects. Here we have a noteworthy reiteration of the fundamental Buddhist doctrine tht human beings are not bound by the external world but only by their own craving. Not only the actuality but also the potentiality of bondage is centered in the individual, that is, in the subjective side of the impersonal life process. ...to be continued, connie #94896 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:44 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, to begin part III. Pannatti and the Two Truths: What emerges from this Abhidhammic doctrine of dhammas is a critical realism, one which (unlike idealism) recognizes the distinctness of the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes between those types of entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of cognition itself. How does this doctrine interpret the "common-sense" view of the world, a kind of naive realism in the sense that it tends to recognize realities more or less corresponding to all linguistic terms? In other words, what relation is there between the dhammas, the ultimate elements of existence, and the objects of common-sense realism? What degree of reality, if any, could be bestowed on the latter? It is in their answers to these questions that the Abhidhammikas formulated the theory of pannatti -- concepts or designations -- together with a distinction drawn between two kinds of truth, conventional (sammuti) and absolute (paramattha). This theory assumes significance in another context. In most of the Indian philosophies which were associated with the atma-tradition and subscribed to a substantialist view of existence, such categories as time and space came to be defined in absolute terms. The problem for the Abhidhammikas was how to explain such categories without committing themselves to the same metaphysical assumptions. The theory of pannatti was the answer to this. connie #94897 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cornerstone - AN i 222 TGrand458@... Hi Scott, All In a message dated 1/14/2009 6:18:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: We can see that, suggested in the Paa.li, the term for 'change' has, as a 'root word' a term that implies 'elsewhere'. This suggests that indeed the change is a sequential one - the 'elsewhere' being a previous arising that has fallen away. ................................................. TG: 'Elsewhere' suggests -- "somewhere else," and -- "gone to a different location." It does NOT suggest arising and then immediately ceasing. Interesting! TG OUT #94898 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:52 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Threes (42-43) nichiconn Dear Friends, following on from: #94690 Threes (41) (cy: #94870) - < connie, Scott, Nina #94899 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:11 am Subject: Re: cornerstone - AN i 222 scottduncan2 Dear TG, Regarding: TG: "'Elsewhere' suggests -- 'somewhere else,' and -- 'gone to a different location.' It does NOT suggest arising and then immediately ceasing..." Scott: This is a good clarification, since, in tandem with the arising and falling away, is the other fact that, say in relation to the ruupas of the 'body', these do arise and cease from one 'location' to another, depending on the 'place' of impingement. This is according to the Abhidhamma analysis, which I consider to be correct. This allows one to consider that the body is indeed impermanent. Sincerely, Scott. #94900 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:02 am Subject: re: cornerstone nichiconn Good morning, Herman, Herman: I see parallels between what is written above, and the scientific debate on whether matter is wave-like or particle-like in nature. What you see is what you go looking for! The Buddha's finding: in the absence of looking, there is ...... c: as the old saying has it: "life's what you make it"... go out all cranky and absorbed in my own nastiness & the world's an uglier place than otherwise. seen thru eyes of true understanding ...? lol - i'll let you know! as far as what we're willing to consider and our inclinations towards one "camp" or the other ... same-o. the same pieces of "evidence" are used by both sides. what's the use in our ignorance based "logic"? peace, connie #94901 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:09 am Subject: re: cornerstone nichiconn Morning, Scott, Scott: We know from the Abhidhamma clarifications, improvements on which are not possible, that the four great elements always arise in a group, never singly. We know that ruupa has its change depending on the relative 'strength' of any one of the four great elements arising together - that the particular great element which has prominence determines, by its characterstic, the nature of a given 'state of ruupa' (whether 'hardness' or 'softness' or what have you). We know that 'hardness' does not change into 'colour', for example - a characteristic remains and does not alter in any way. c: Or, what I think Herman was saying, and looking at Asl 311-313, which is like the Vism quotes to Sarah the other day: It may be objected that if in this body, wherever there is matter grasped at, the tactile sense stands everywhere like oil in cotton-rag, then there will be a mixing of characteristics. It is impossible to separate tastes, etc., of material things like particles of sand, and so they are said to be mutually diffused; ultimately, too, there is no taste 'in' material things (if there were, there would be a 'taste-seizing' whenever there was a sight-seizing). Even so the tactile sense is not everywhere in an ultimate sense; and it is not absent because of the impossibility of breaking it up. Hence it is that no mixing of characteristics comes to pass. Moreover, the determining of characteristics, etc., prevents such mixing. For the eye has the characteristic of sentience for phenomena worthy of directly impinging on the object, or of sentience sprung from action caused by a desire to see the object. It has the function of drawing consciousness towards the objects; it has the localizing of visual cognition as its manifestation; it has the being produced by action caused by a desire to see as proximate cause. - If the smell in cotton with a preponderance of extension is greater than that of liquor fermented with a preponderance of cohesion, and if the colour of cold water be inferior to that of hot water with an excess of heat - if these were so, we should agree to your expression. But since these two instances cannot happen, therefore you should give up the special reasoning regarding those phenomena which are bases. As in one group, although there is no distinction of phenomena, the tastes of visible and other objects are unlike each other, so even though there is no other special reason, the visual and other sentient organs are unlike each other. What is that reason which is not mutually common? The reason of distinction among the senses is just kamma. Therefore from the difference of kamma, and not from that of phenomena, the difference in these is to be understood. For if phenomena were different [in kind], there would be no sentient organ. Hence the ancient [thinkers] said: 'The sentient organ is [sentient] of phenomena similar [to itself], not of dissimilar.' peace, connie #94902 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:31 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to kenhowardau Hi Robert E and Suan, It's really quite simple, all you have to remember is: Satipatthana - the teaching of the Buddha - is right understanding of conditioned dhammas. Satipatthana is *not* the performance religious rites and rituals. ------------- Robert E (to Alberto) : > why is meditation mostly dismissed by Abhidhamikkas as the main method for realizing the reality of the dhammas? Is there a justification for this in the Abhidhamma or related works, or has a latter-day culture decided that meditation on such minute elements is impossible and sought an intellectual realization instead? Suan (to James): > your intention to pursue the practice of formal Buddhist meditation is in stark contrast to the anti-formal-practice stance of the followers or sympathisers of a lay puthujjana teacher, whom you once criticised on this forum, and whose views also seem to go against the Buddha's Theravada teachings preserved in Pali Tipitaka. --------------- Please, let us see any quotes from the Tipitaka that you regard as meditation instructions. I think we will find they are actually descriptions of conditioned dhammas and explanations as to how they arose, performed their functions and fell away. Ken H #94903 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 egberdina Hi RobM, 2009/1/13 robmoult : > Hi All, > > From my paper > It is certainly an intersting and thought provoking paper. > ===== > > Where Does the Mind Reside? > > This conference has touched upon the subject of cellular memory, > which is defined by Wikipedia as "the hypothesis that such things as > memories, habits, interests, and tastes may somehow be stored in all > the cells of human bodies, not only in the brain. The suggestion is > based largely around anecdotal evidence of organ transplants after > which the recipient was reported to have developed new habits or > memories." If I can inherit the habits and memories of others (and I don't dispute the evidence for a minute), then this is proof positive that beings do not inherit only the effects of their own kamma. Cheers Herman #94904 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:16 pm Subject: Re: Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 kenhowardau Hi Rob M, > I would be interested in comments / feedback. > My overall comment on the subject of dying is that it is just a moment of conditioned consciousness. It was preceded by a moment of consciousness and it will be followed by another moment of consciousness. There is nothing more special about the dying citta than there is about any other citta. There is no self (atta) that will either go on, or not go on, to the next citta. (Just as there is not self that will either go on, or not go on, from the present citta.) I think your readers need to appreciate that. Don't tell them any more about dying until they do. Ken H #94905 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/1/15 kenhowardau : > Hi Rob M, > > My overall comment on the subject of dying is that it is just a > moment of conditioned consciousness. It was preceded by a moment of > consciousness and it will be followed by another moment of > consciousness. > I just happened to be in this thread, that's why the quick reply. You might agree with me that the characteristic of consciousness is that it is knowing [something]. If there is no knowing [something], there is no consciousness. I wonder why people are adamant that there is knowing of something that is unknown? Cheers Herman #94906 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:31 pm Subject: Re: Suttas- the time to let go buddhatrue Hi Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > Hello James > > How are you? Happy New Year! James: Happy New Year to you also! > > I hope that you are serious about formal Buddhist practice - the > step-by-step formal development of the Noble Eightfold Path. James: I'm not sure why you would have such a hope but, yes, I am serious about formal step-by-step practice. > > It is good to know that you have donated your Nikayas to a school > library in Cairo. It in itself is an activation of Daanapaaramii, > and it can qualify as one of the formal practices of reducing > attachment - if you could keep up practicing this paaramii > ongoingly. James: Yes, that's true. > > I think that, when you declared it was time to practice now, you > meant practice of formal meditation comprising both samatha and > vipassnaa. That amounts to activation of Siilapaaramii, > Nikkhamapaaramii, Khantiipaaramii, Viirirapaaramii, > Adhi.t.thaanapaaramii, Mettaapaaramii, and Paññaapaaramii. James: Sorry, this Pali is lost on me. > > I also note that your declaration of your intention to pursue the > practice of formal Buddhist meditation is in stark contrast to the > anti-formal-practice stance of the followers or sympathisers of a > lay puthujjana teacher, whom you once criticised on this forum, and > whose views also seem to go against the Buddha's Theravada teachings > preserved in Pali Tipitaka. James: Yes and yes. > > Best wishes, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > www.bodhiology.org > Metta, James #94907 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana truth_aerator Dear Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 13-jan-2009, om 0:02 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > The impertubable means 4th Jhana to base of infinite consciousness. > > Him not having samadhi fully purified = possibly being in the lower > > impertubable (4th). > -------- > N: The fourth ruupa jhana is not aruupajhaana. Aruupajhaana is called > ane~nja, imperturbable. > --------- In MN106 the Anenja sutta it starts with 4th Jhana and goes to 2nd aruppa Jhana. If what you say is true, then it even supports my claim more. The Ven. MahaMogallana DID HEAR . > > > > N: > and rising up from musing and hearing the sound of the elephants, > > >he heard it between the attainments. > > > > No, Nina. The whole point is that he has heard the sound WHILE in the > > attainment. > ------- > N: Hearing sound is citta of the sensuous plane, not jhanacitta. Sutta quote please. Thank you. With best wishes, Alex #94908 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The object of meditation in metta meditation sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sat, 10/1/09, Alex wrote: >The loving kindness feeling is felt better in, or near, what we call physical heart. But in any case one shouldn't focus too much on the precise location and 'shape' of the feeling. Just the feeling, and absorb into it. .... S: Can you tell me in your own simple words what metta is, what you mean by 'the feeling' and what you mean by 'absorb into it'? What is the object of metta? How is such metta as you describe wholesome (kusala)? Metta, Sarah ====== #94909 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- On Sat, 10/1/09, TGrand458@... wrote: S:>>Can you tell us where and when you were a monk. Interested to hear more, TG. ............ ......... ......... ......... ... >TG: Sri Lanka. 1983. .... S: Interesting! Cany you tell me where and which temple? As you probably know, I spent some time living in a temple in the forest outside Colombo. .... S:>>Do you agree that the "heart" of the practice is always *now*? ............ ......... ......... ......... ......... >TG: No. The "heart" is insight which deals with directly realizing the nature of phenomena, and mental and physical operations and interactions, and how such leads to suffering or away from it. Such insight is based on both experiential observations and conceptual understandings associated with these concerns. .... S: But can such practice, such insight ever be at anytime other than *now*? Is there ever another time? If so what? .... TG:>The Satipatthana Sutta, one of the Suttas that most strongly supports your "now" view, deals with much conceptual analysis...includin g analysis of external phenomena. I don't know why you don't take into account the whole Sutta. .... S: I think the entire sutta deals with the development of satipatthana itself *now*, according to our different lifestyles and inclinations/tendencies. Metta, Sarah ======== #94910 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:52 pm Subject: Re: cornerstone sarahprocter... Dear Connie, TG, Howard & all, The extract in #94248 was a useful one - i.e. no nit-picking from me. Here is an interesting part of it, esp. the Vism quote in the middle (re-paragraphed): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: ... > Karunadasa continues: ... > The term paramattha is sometimes paraphased as bhutattha (the actual).67 This is explained to mean that the dhammas are not non- existent like an illusion or mirage or like the soul (purisa) and primordial nature (pakati) of the non-Buddhist schools of thought.68 The evidence for their existence is not based either on conventions (sammuti) or on mere scriptural authority (anussava).69 On the contrary, their very existence is vouchsafed by their own intrinsic nature.70 The very fact of their existence is the very mark of their reality. >As the Visuddhimagga observes: "It (= dhamma) is that which, for those who examine it with the eye of understanding, is not misleading like an illusion, deceptive like a mirage, or undiscoverable like the self of the sectarians, but is rather the domain of noble knowledge as the real unmisleading actual state." 71 >The kind of existence implied here is not past or future existence, but present actual and verifiable existence (satvijjamanata).72 This emphasis on their actuality in the present phase of time rules out any association with the Sarvastivadins' theory of tri-temporal existence. Thus, for the Theravadin, the use of the term paramattha does not carry any substantialist implications. It only means that the mental and material dhammas represent the utmost limits to which the analysis of empirical existence can be pushed. > **** Metta, Sarah ======== #94911 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. TGrand458@... Hi Sarah! In a message dated 1/14/2009 8:34:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S:>>Do you agree that the "heart" of the practice is always *now*? ............ ......... ......... ......... ......... >TG: No. The "heart" is insight which deals with directly realizing the nature of phenomena, and mental and physical operations and interactions, and how such leads to suffering or away from it. Such insight is based on both experiential observations and conceptual understandings associated with these concerns. .... S: But can such practice, such insight ever be at anytime other than *now*? Is there ever another time? If so what? .... .................................................................... TG: Is there ever any other time than "now"? Sariputta is recorded as attaining enlightenment while fanning the Buddha and listening to a discourse in MN. Do you think he was "counting dhammas" at the time? ;-) (Maybe the eye-wink isn't appropriate. You might respond with a serious yes.) ;-))) ............................................................................. TG:>The Satipatthana Sutta, one of the Suttas that most strongly supports your "now" view, deals with much conceptual analysis...includin g analysis of external phenomena. I don't know why you don't take into account the whole Sutta. .... S: I think the entire sutta deals with the development of satipatthana itself *now*, according to our different lifestyles and inclinations/S: I think t ............................................................. TG: Including analysis of the bodily parts, charnel grounds contemplation, and analysis of "the external"? I'm not sure how that fits into your *now.* How is one mindful of "bile" in the *now* you speak of? Seems like 'concept' to me. TG OUT Metta, Sarah #94912 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:11 pm Subject: Re: thinking and vitakka sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma friends > Thinking arises in the mind-door processes. At the moment of javana, > javana-cittas arise and experience a concept as object. But what is > the function of vitakka in the process of thinking? ... S: Vitakka 'touches' or 'strikes' the object. It assists the citta and associated cetasikas to experience the object. Actually, it also arises with all sense-door cittas other than the dvi-panca vinnana cittas (seeing, hearing etc). So this means it also arises with sampaticcana, santirana and the other cittas in the process. So even when the object is a reality, vitakka is usually performing its function. The following is quoted in Nina's 'Cetasikas', Chapter 8: "The Visuddhimagga ( IV, 88) defines vitakka as follows: 'Herein, applied thinking (vitakkama) is applied thought (vitakka); hitting upon, is what is meant. It has the characteristic ofdirecting the mind onto an object (mounting the mind on its object). Its function is to strike at and thresh; for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object touched and struck at by applied thought. It is manifested as the leading of the mind onto an object' "The Atthasaalinii (Book I, Part IV, Chapter I, 114) gives a similar definition. This commentary uses a simile of someone who wants to 'ascend' the king's palace and depends on a relative or friend dear to the king to achieve this. In the same way the citta which is accompanied by vitakka depends on the latter in order to 'ascend' to the object, to be directed to the object. Vitakka leads the citta to the object so that citta can cognize it." ... >L: What is the function of vitakka as jhana-factor? .... S: Again, the function is to assist the citta 'hit upon' or 'mount' the object. As a jhana-factor, it can be kusala or akusala, according to the citta. Without vitakka performing its function now, we wouldn't be able to write, read or do anything. Pls ask anything else, but apologies in advance for slow responses. Also see 'vitakka' in U.P. Metta, Sarah p.s. Btw, I heard a good comment of KS's in response to a friend's concern about slow progress, lack of panna, frustration on the path and so on: KS: "Because you want to be panna". And later, "Because it's Self". When I come across the comments again, I'll try to transcribe them. ======== #94913 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:21 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sarahprocter... Hi Rob E (Ken H, James & all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > S:...Are you still in Washington D.C.? Snowed up and psyched up there > these days, I'm sure! > > =========== > R:> It is quite exciting here, as the inauguration approaches. People are > renting their houses for $30,000 and all kinds of nonsense. But it is > an exciting time and an exciting event. Here in D.C. it is generally > very pleasant; a tree-lined street with lots of restaurants a few > blocks away, so I can't complain. If it weren't for these silly > delusions of self-hood I would be quite happy. :-) > > As someone once said, it's hard to take a real vacation because > wherever you go, you're still there! .... S: I think the last comment says it all - we wander around the world, taking the kilesa-baggage with us. The 'heaviest' item is definitely the Self. As for those rents, why not take the @ and hop over to Fiji to join us? Seriously though, much as you're probably ready for a break from the snow, I'm not sure that back-to-back cyclones here with large numbers getting stranded on arrival at the airport for days on end is anyone's idea of a vacation. Still, even under such circumstances, different accumulations make it easier or hard to cope with the baggage.... Metta, Sarah p.s to Ken H & James - Thank you, we're fine, pretty- well 'imprisoned' in Suva with all that baggage, but when we read about the 10,000 who've lost homes, the entire tourist capital, Nadi, being under water and under curfew and many more appalling accounts of loss, we feel fortunate to be safe and dry. ======= #94914 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:39 pm Subject: Re: cornerstone sarahprocter... Hi Scott, Connie & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > Scott: > .... I've clung to the wish for peaceful discussions where Dhamma can be discussed in a hushed and harmonious space. I think that that 'space' is reserved for the moments in which understanding arises. Therein is peace. Corners give words and it is up to conditions whether or not understanding and Right View develops. ... S: Yes, that says it all.....when undersanding arises, it's calm and peaceful. When it doesn't, it can get pretty noisy. Clinging and expectations can only lead to more noisy conditions... Press on, Connie and don't mind those of us who're quite a few steps behind!! Peace & Metta, Sarah ====== #94915 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:14 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Alberto! > > In the old days there were people with all the required accumulations > (the right conditions) that would directly know the dhammas and attain > nibbana with their eyes open just after hearing a brief exposition of > the Dhamma, a few concise words on dhammas such as eye-sense, > eye-object and eye-conciousness, they didn't even necessarily have to > hear it from the Budhha himself. How do you know this? Is it a matter of faith? Those people with small selves > (ugghatitannu puggala) put an end to their samsara, never to be born > again, just like that. There were also people with medium sized selves > (vipacitannu puggala) who required a middle lenght exposition of the > Dhamma to condition satipatthana to arise. > > Nowadays, selves come in L and XL size only (neyya and padaparama > puggala), it's all in tipitaka (Puggalappannati), who require lenghty > and detailed Dhamma explanations and discussion (i.e. Abhidhamma) to > condition the momentary eclipse of the self so that sati, any kusala > actually, can arise and develop in its place. That's all an interesting theory. Any evidence that it's how reality works? > > When a L or XL self sits crosslegged, eye closed, trying to > concentrate hard on something which can be anything but an actual > dhamma, what do you think it is accumulating, panna or avijja, kusala > or akusala? I think that right effort eventually yields fruit, as long as you have the intention to improve. It's like any skill. The idea that it's all set and all known and all "exactly like this" and that you have access to the way things work, what possibilities of awakening people do or don't have, based on the commentaries to the commentaries, seems a bit presumptuous to me. > > The self can cling to anything, including pariyatti, accumulating more > lobha/attachment in the process, insted of alobha, detachment. But > proper pariyatti, studying & considering the Dhamma for the sake of > understanding dhammas themselves, without expectating (the self) to > gain anything, not with a result-based, self-based approach, is the > main condition for sati to be able to arise and accumulate until it > becomes as natural as lobha normally is, they are both conditioned and > conditioning dhammas in the same way, the self can't induce nor > understand them, only conditions and panna can. And exactly how would you know if you are clinging or doing this process without a self-based approach, given your own statement that "When a L or XL self sits crosslegged, eye closed, trying to > concentrate hard on something which can be anything but an actual > dhamma, what do you think it is accumulating, panna or avijja, kusala > or akusala?" Or are those who take an interest in Abhidhamma immune from this form of self-delusion? And why would it only affect those poor meditators who are trying in vain to concentrate on 'the wrong thing.' I think this sense of how things work is way too one-dimensional and way too set in stone. The Buddha himself didn't seem to think it was impossible for people to awaken by meditating and developing sati gradually. He said quite enthusiastically that someone who worked on Satipatthana for a modest period of time with right effort would move in the proper direction, not delude themselves by doing some akusala version of mindfulness,as you seem to suggest. So if the situation is as dire as you make it out to be, why would studying the commentaries and intellectually focusing on the nature of dhammas give you more success than sitting and discerning the arising of moments directly in sati-based meditation. To me, this seems to be a philosophical prejudice, and just doesn't make sense. In addition, as I mentioned, it appears to violate the express instructions of the Patthana, unless I am mistaken. The major works of and about the Abhidhamma, even within major sets of commentaries and summations of the Abhidhamma by Abhidhamika masters, suggest that it is through meditation that the nature of dhammas is to be discerned. What possible reason would you have for using a different methodology? And is it really in line with the Abhidhamma, or is it more in line with a much more modern movement in a particularly intellectual direction? Who decided that folks these days can't achieve satipatthana through meditation and must focus strictly on Abhidhamma commentary and commentaries on the commentaries instead? Exactly who is the authority for such a movement away from the Buddha's own approach to enlightenment? What is wrong with reading sutta and Abhidhamma and then actually applying in practice what you have read about through "right mindfulness," sitting as the Buddha did, and as all his disciples did as well? Robert = = = = = = = = = = = = = #94916 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:28 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to epsteinrob Hi Ken. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Please, let us see any quotes from the Tipitaka that you regard as > meditation instructions. > > I think we will find they are actually descriptions of conditioned > dhammas and explanations as to how they arose, performed their > functions and fell away. Well, if that is the case, why would you resist doing the same as those who are described in such suttas? Why would those who believe this to be the case make it a decision - most likely based on the ego - that they will avoid such meditation and not the work the way that the Buddha described as bringing success? And what makes you think that you know this? A philosophical predisposition against any form of imperative instruction? Is not the way of studying dhammas that you propose a set of instructions as well? And how does this not engage the ego just as much as taking the Satipatthana Sutta as a skillful roadmap for right mindfulness in meditation? Even leaving aside such a line of questioning, to which I would be happy to see yor response, I use a certain degree of common sense in seeing what a written work is about. If it is clearly a set of instructions, I don't try to bend over backwards to turn it into something else by softening a preposition or replacing a hard verb with a softer one, or whatever the case may be. If I read a treatise that described the way in which someone hammers in a nail in order to hammer it in straight and create a solid join between two pieces of wood, my reaction would not be: "Well, this is clearly not an instruction for how to use a hammer, but merely an accidental description of what some people happened to do when they came across a hammer and accidentally built a house. It certainly does not imply that this is a skillful way to build a house that someone else might want to follow. Instead we should read about the nature of nails and wood for a very long period of time and then at some later date we may be qualified to very tentatively pick up the hammer." Instead I believe that a normal approach - trying to discern what is there and then failing, and then learning from mistakes, makes a lot more sense than avoiding the endeavor for a much more reserved and reverent approach to the instruction manual. On the other hand, I appreciate the desire to actually understand what the path is, and the Abdhidhamma is a work of brilliance well beyond simple comprehension. But I don't think that applying it in practice while studying it is dangerous - I think it is necessary. Best, Robert ============================== #94917 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:37 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Sarah! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > > Hi Rob E (Ken H, James & all), ...much as you're probably ready for a break from the > snow, I'm not sure that back-to-back cyclones here with large numbers > getting stranded on arrival at the airport for days on end is > anyone's idea of a vacation. Still, even under such circumstances, > different accumulations make it easier or hard to cope with the > baggage.... Wow, I am glad you are okay, considering such difficult conditions. Perhaps it is good kamma after all. My wife has travelled the world a bit in her line of work and has a habit of leaving a country just before something bad happens. She had this experience in Burundi before the violence started and then spread to Ruanda, as well as being in a hotel on the Dead Sea in Jordan just before it was bombed. I have tried to convince her that it is not her visits that start the problems....... I am afraid that while you are in Fiji, I am being bad and trying to cause philosophical problems here on dsg, but I hope that it's not too annoying. I hope that everything goes well despite the weather, and that you have a successful trip! Best Regards, Rob E. =============================== #94918 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana epsteinrob Hi Nina! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Hearing sound is citta of the sensuous plane, not jhanacitta. If a > person thinks that jhanacitta can hear a sound, he takes for > jhanacitta what is not. He may be in a state ressembling jhana, but > then pa~n~naa is needed to realize this. > I just follow the texts and will not add anymore, lest I become > repetitious. > -------- > > Nina. I have heard from a few sources, including lectures of Ajahn Brahmavamso in Australia, that while first jhana can include some remote sense of hearing, but from far away, not really in the circle of attention; that by second jhana its characteristic is that there is absolutely no sense of hearing anything external. So I think this would basically confirm what you are saying, from the Thai Forest Tradition. Best, Rob E. ========================== #94919 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana epsteinrob Hi Howard! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I thank you for your reply, Nina, but you do not account for the clear > change in terminology with regard to the 8th and 9th jhanas from the first 7. > In fact, in the Anupada Sutta, in the first 7, there is said of the cetasikas > in effect "these states were defined by him one by one AS THEY OCCURRED; > known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they > disappeared." Only once the sutta gets to the 8th jhana is it said " "He emerged mindful > from that attainment. Having done so, he contemplated the states that had > passed, ceased and changed ..." Hi Howard. I don't know what you think of the Thai Forest folk, some of whom are very focused on jhana meditation, but Ajahn Bramavanso, disciple of Ajahn Chah, has stated very clearly that in his experience one is incapable of understanding what has been experienced in the jhanas until emerging from them. I am not saying this is everyone's experience, but it seems worthwhile to look at what someone has said who has been practicing jhana for several decades as a monk and teacher. He described pretty nicely in his lectures how the faculties that understand the jhanas re-emerge after coming back from the jhanas and then it is very important to take the time to understand what has been experienced. I don't have a point of view on this, as I have not experienced it, but I think it is of interest. Both Ajahn Bramavamso, and an interesting woman who I found by chance - Shaila Catherine - and somehow feel is very talented, have written recent books that give a great deal of detail about the method and experience and fruit of the jhanas. If it is of interest, here is a link for each: Shaila Catherine: http://tinyurl.com/84z55x Ajahn Brahmavamso: http://tinyurl.com/9puk8c Best, Rob E. =============================== #94920 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:36 pm Subject: a sutta question ...or two reverendagga... Hi Everybody! i would like to sincerely thank everybody for the kind assistance that has been given to me with such GREAT compassion.i will forever be so VERY grateful! Thank you ALL so VERY much! O.K. Now... i have two sutta questions that i would appreciate some help with... The deciples that Ven.Gotama sent forth to expound the Dhamma were there 50 or 60 ? i have seen the "50" in parenthesis as if it were someones interpretation but not actually the sutta. The second question that i have concerns a sutta that i have been told about but have never seen. Supposedly theres a sutta where Ven.Gotama gives the green light to some monks who ask him if they can smoke tobacco to help them keep warm. Pray tell,is this true? Once again,Thank you all so VERY much! May the Deva's look favorably on all of you for your loving kindness! Om Namah Dhamma Gotama! bhikkhu aggacitto #94921 From: "sprlrt" Date: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:29 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Robert E, > > When a L or XL self sits crosslegged, eye closed, trying to > > concentrate hard on something which can be anything but an actual > > dhamma, what do you think it is accumulating, panna or avijja, kusala > > or akusala? > > The idea that it's > all set and all known and all "exactly like this" and that you have > access to the way things work, what possibilities of awakening people > do or don't have, based on the commentaries to the commentaries, seems > a bit presumptuous to me. Believe it or not I hate spoiling people's fun, I use to enjoy formal meditation myself, I was just answering the question you asked me - Alberto > > > Given the above, why is meditation mostly dismissed by Abhidhamikkas > > > as the main method for realizing the reality of the dhammas? #94922 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:44 am Subject: Survey, Ch 35, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Ch 35 The Characteristic of Dukkha. Q. : What should a layman do who wants to be free from dukkha? He may see that there is such a great deal of dukkha, that it is so terrible and that it occurs all the time, because people are born and they have to be born again and again. Is there a short way to become free from dukkha? S. : When someone says that there is such a great deal of dukkha, that it is so terrible, there is bound to be wrong view which clings to the concept of self. Only if there is no wrong view of self can dukkha become less. The Buddha explained that all the different kinds of dukkha can be eliminated according as defilements are eradicated stage by stage. So long as defilements have not been eradicated there have to be countless rebirths. So long as there is birth there is dukkha. The sotåpanna who has attained the first stage of enlightenment and has eradicated defilements in accordance with that stage, will not be reborn more than seven times. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (II, Nidåna vagga, Ch XIII, § 1, The tip of the nail): Thus have I heard. On a certain occasion the Exalted One was staying near Såvatthí at the Jeta Grove, in Anåthapiùèika’s Park. Then the Exalted One took up a little pinch of dust on the tip of his finger-nail and said to the monks: ”What do you think, monks? Whether is this pinch of dust that I have taken up on my finger-nail the greater, or the mighty earth?” “The latter, lord, the mighty earth is the greater. Infinitely small is this pinch of dust taken up by the Exalted One on his finger-nail, not by a hundredth part, nor by a thousandth part, not by a hundred thousandth part does it equal the mighty earth when set beside it-- this pinch of dust taken up by the Exalted One on his finger-nail.” “Even so, monks, for the ariyan disciple who has won vision, for the person who has understanding this is the greater dukkha, to wit, that which for him is wholly perished, wholly finished; little is the dukkha that remains, not worth the hundredth part, not worth the thousandth part, not worth the hundred thousandth part when measured with the former dukkha which for him is wholly perished, wholly finished, to wit, a term of seven times 4. So great in good, monks, is it to be wise in the Dhamma; so great a good is it to have gained the eye of the Dhamma.” Since the number of rebirths of ordinary people, who have not attained enlightenment, is countless, the dukkha which arises because of birth must accordingly be immeasurable, as you suggested in your question. ******** Nina. #94923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. nilovg Dear Sarah, I was glad to see yoyr posts. Wondering, after the Herald Tribune's account of Fiji. But I knew you were far from the resorts, which seemed a disadvantage but now proves to be an advantage. We are glad you are safe and dry. Nina. Op 15-jan-2009, om 5:21 heeft sarahprocterabbott het volgende geschreven: > Sarah > p.s to Ken H & James - Thank you, we're fine, pretty- > well 'imprisoned' in Suva with all that baggage, but when we read > about the 10,000 who've lost homes, the entire tourist capital, Nadi, > being under water and under curfew and many more appalling accounts > of loss, we feel fortunate to be safe and dry. #94924 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:06 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "21. And in order to make the meaning of this clear the following sutta from the Book of Fives should be cited in full: 'Bhikkhus, there are five ways of dispelling annoyance whereby annoyance arisen in a bhikkhu can be entirely dispelled' (A.iii,186-190)." The Path of Purity. "And the Aaghaatapa.tivinaya Sutta (A"guttara iii, 185) in the fifth Nipaata should be expanded so as t make this meaning clear: 'Friend, five are the ways of removing hatred by which one ought entirely to remove hatred that has arisen in a monk." Imassa ca atthassa aavibhaavattha.m - 'pa~ncime, aavuso, aaghaatapa.tivinayaa. Yattha bhikkhuno uppanno aaghaato sabbaso pa.tivinodetabbo 'ti (a. ni. 5.162) ida.m pa~ncakanipaate aaghaatapa.tivinayasutta.m vitthaaretabba.m. Sincerely, Scott. #94925 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:35 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Regarding the Aaghaatapa.tivinaya Sutta: "There are, O monks, five ways of getting rid of a grudge, by means of which a monk can remove all grudges that have arisen within him. What five? "If a grudge arises towards any person, then one should cultivate loving-kindness towards him ... or compassion ... or equanimity. In that way one can remove the grudge towards that person. "Or one should pay no attention to him and give no thought to him. In that way one can remove the grudge. "Or one may apply to that person the fact of ownership of kamma: 'This worthy person is owner of his actions, the heir of his actions; his actions are the womb (from which he has sprung), his relations and his protection. Whatever he does, good or bad, he will be heir to that.' "These are the five ways of getting rid of a grudge, by means of which a monk can remove all grudges that have arisen in him" (Bh. Bodhi, trans.). Pa.thamaaaghaatapa.tivinayasutta.m (A"guttaranikaayo, Pa~ncakanipaatapaa.li, (17) 2. Aaghaatavaggo) "Pa~ncime , bhikkhave, aaghaatapa.tivinayaa yattha bhikkhuno uppanno aaghaato sabbaso pa.tivinetabbo. Katame pa~nca? Yasmi.m, bhikkhave, puggale aaghaato jaayetha, mettaa tasmi.m puggale bhaavetabbaa; eva.m tasmi.m puggale aaghaato pa.tivinetabbo. Yasmi.m, bhikkhave, puggale aaghaato jaayetha, karu.naa tasmi.m puggale bhaavetabbaa; eva.m tasmi.m puggale aaghaato pa.tivinetabbo. Yasmi.m, bhikkhave, puggale aaghaato jaayetha, upekkhaa tasmi.m puggale bhaavetabbaa; eva.m tasmi.m puggale aaghaato pa.tivinetabbo. Yasmi.m, bhikkhave, puggale aaghaato jaayetha, asatiamanasikaaro tasmi.m puggale aapajjitabbo; eva.m tasmi.m puggale aaghaato pa.tivinetabbo. Yasmi.m , bhikkhave, puggale aaghaato jaayetha, kammassakataa tasmi.m puggale adhi.t.thaatabbaa - 'kammassako ayamaayasmaa kammadaayaado kammayoni kammabandhu kammappa.tisara.no, ya.m kamma.m karissati kalyaa.na.m vaa paapaka.m vaa tassa daayaado bhavissatii 'ti; eva.m tasmi.m puggale aaghaato pa.tivinetabbo. Ime kho, bhikkhave, pa~nca aaghaatapa.tivinayaa, yattha bhikkhuno uppanno aaghaato sabbaso pa.tivinetabbo 'ti. Pa,thama.m." Sincerely, Scott. Sincerely, Scott. #94926 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:16 am Subject: Re: cornerstone - AN i 222 scottduncan2 Dear connie, TG, Regarding: Gradual Sayings vol.1 (PTS 2006 p.202): (iii) There may be change*, Aananda, in the four great phenomena, the elements of earth, of water, of heat, and the element of air**, but there can be no change in the Ariyan disciple blessed with unwavering loyalty to the Buddha. By 'change' I mean this: that such an one should be reborn in Purgatory, in the womb of an animal or in the Realm of Petas is an impossibility. (iv) There may be change, Aananda, in the four great phenomena ... but for the Ariyan disciple blessed with unwavering loyalty to Dhamma ... to the Order, there can be no change: I mean, that such an one should be reborn ... in the Realm of Petas is an impossibility. (v) So, Aananda, one for whom you have fellow-feeling ... should be established in these three particulars. Scott: What if Buddhaghosa is quoting the same sutta, and we see his translation as translated by Pe Maung Tin (who translated that particular version of Atthasaalinii)? Scott: Then, we'd get two translations of the sutta: 1) "There may be change, Aananda, in the four great phenomena ... but for the Ariyan disciple blessed with unwavering loyalty to Dhamma ... to the Order, there can be no change: I mean, that such an one should be reborn ... in the Realm of Petas is an impossibility." And, 2) "'Verily, Aananda, of the elements of extension ... of cohesion, these four great essentials might alter their characteristic sooner than it were possible for the Ariyan disciple endowed with assured faith in the Buddha to alter'" Scott: And the Paa.li: Nivesakasutta.m ...Siyaa, aananda, catunna.m mahaabhuutaana.m a~n~nathatta.m - pathaviidhaatuyaa aapodhaatuyaa tejodhaatuyaa vaayodhaatuyaa, na tveva buddhe aveccappasaadena samannaagatassa ariyasaavakassa siyaa a~n~nathatta.m tatrida.m a~n~nathatta.m. So vataananda, buddhe aveccappasaadena samannaagato ariyasaavako niraya.m vaa tiracchaanayoni.m vaa pettivisaya.m vaa upapajjissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. Scott: And the meaning: "Atthasaalinii (pp.436-437): "For there is alteration in state (by way of deficiency and excess) of the four Great Essentials; but there is no such thing as alteration of characteristics. The absence of such alteration of characteristics is shown in the A.t.thaanaparikappa Sutta: 'Verily, Aananda, of the elements of extension ... of cohesion, these four great essentials might alter their characteristic sooner than it were possible for the Ariyan disciple endowed with assured faith in the Buddha to alter' (A"nguttara i,222)..." What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. #94927 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana upasaka_howard Hi, Rob - Hi Howard. I don't know what you think of the Thai Forest folk, some of whom are very focused on jhana meditation, but Ajahn Bramavanso, disciple of Ajahn Chah, has stated very clearly that in his experience one is incapable of understanding what has been experienced in the jhanas until emerging from them. I am not saying this is everyone's experience, but it seems worthwhile to look at what someone has said who has been practicing jhana for several decades as a monk and teacher. He described pretty nicely in his lectures how the faculties that understand the jhanas re-emerge after coming back from the jhanas and then it is very important to take the time to understand what has been experienced. I don't have a point of view on this, as I have not experienced it, but I think it is of interest. Both Ajahn Bramavamso, and an interesting woman who I found by chance - Shaila Catherine - and somehow feel is very talented, have written recent books that give a great deal of detail about the method and experience and fruit of the jhanas. If it is of interest, here is a link for each: Shaila Catherine: http://tinyurl.com/84z55x Ajahn Brahmavamso: http://tinyurl.com/9puk8c Best, Rob E. ================================== I have much respect for the Thai forest tradition, but as for faith, the closest I come to bestowing that is on the Buddha, himself, and his closest lieutenants. My own limited experience is that during jhana, 1) it is only mind door that is involved, but that 2) (non-intellectual) understanding is very much in effect - an understanding that serves as basis for later recollection and intellectual characterization. With metta, Howard P. S. Thanks for the links! :-) It happens that I own Ajahn Brahmavamso's book, but it's not a favorite of mine. (From the Avarana Sutta) #94928 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:17 am Subject: AS time nichiconn dear Friends, Nyanaponika's Abhidhamma Studies continues: In order not to leave any doubt about the meaning of the word "soil" (bhuumi) in this context, we shall elucidate it by the example of the visual perception of a pleasant form. Let us suppose that this perception was not followed immediately by conscious craving or enjoyment because it was superseded at once by a much stronger impression on the mind. Nevertheless this "deferred" defilement of sensual desire (kaamaraaga) for beautiful forms may spring up at some later moment, for example, when that previous visual perception is remembered. The "soil" for its appearance was provided by the aggregates existing at the time of the previous visual perception: the aggregate of corporeality being represented by the eye, etc., the four mental aggregates by the visual consciousness and by the visual perception, the feeling, volition, etc., connected with it. Until the fetter of sensual desire (kaamaraaga-sa'myojana) is severed on entering the path of the nonreturner (anaagaami-magga), this defilement underlies the continued process of the individual's five aggregates; it is dormant or latent in their foundation or at their root; it is, as it were, the sub-soil to that soil. With all these latter terms we have been paraphrasing the Paali term (cf. , proclivity, latent tendency, disposition), which is used in this connection in the Visuddhimagga thus: tesu tesu (khandhesu) ... kilesajaata'm anuseti, "this species of defilement underlies the respective aggregates of existence." ... to be continued, connie #94929 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:20 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear friends, Karunadasa continues: What may be described as the first formal definition of pannatti occurs in the Dhammasangani.107 Here the three terms, pannatti, nirutti, and adhivacana are used synonymously and each term is defined by lumping together a number of appropriate equivalents. In Mrs. Rhys Davids' translation: "That which is an enumeration, that which is a designation, an expression (pannatti), a current term, a name, a denomination, the assigning of a name, an interpretation, a distinctive mark of discourse on this or that dhamma." 108 Immediately after this definition, a "predication of equipollent terms," 109 it is observed that all the dhammas constitute the pathway of pannattis (sabbe dhamma pannatti-patha).110 As shown by this definition, designation is the pannatti; what is designated thereby is the pannatti-patha. Whether the term pannatti, as used here, denotes the individual names given to each and every dhamma only, or whether it also denotes names assigned to various combinations of the dhammas, is not explicitly stated. According to the Abhidhamma, it may be noted, every combination of the objectively real dhammas represents a nominal reality, not an objective reality. The fact that the term pannatti includes names of both categories, the objective and the nominal, is suggested not only by what is stated elsewhere in the Abhidhamma Pitaka,111 but also by the later exegesis.112 We may conclude then that according to the Dhammasangani definition, pannatti denotes all names, terms, and symbols that are expressive of the real existents as well as of their combinations in different forms. notes: 107. (Dhs 110). 108. Buddhist Manual of Psychological Ethics (trans. of Dhs), C.A.F. Rhys-Davids (London, 1923), p.340. 109. Ibid. 110. Dhs 110. 111. Cf. Kvu controversy on the concept of person (puggala). 112. See below, p. 35. ....to be continued, connie #94930 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana nilovg Dear Rob Ep, Op 15-jan-2009, om 6:43 heeft Robert Epstein het volgende geschreven: > I have heard from a few sources, including lectures of Ajahn > Brahmavamso in Australia, that while first jhana can include some > remote sense of hearing, but from far away, not really in the circle > of attention; --------- N: When hearing hears a sound, even from far away, even if he does not pay attention, the citta is of the sense-sphere, not jhaanacitta. Nina. #94931 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:50 am Subject: Re: cornerstone - AN i 222 nichiconn Dear Scott, TG, Scott: And the meaning: "Atthasaalinii (pp.436-437): "For there is alteration in state (by way of deficiency and excess) of the four Great Essentials; but there is no such thing as alteration of characteristics. The absence of such alteration of characteristics is shown in the A.t.thaanaparikappa Sutta: (A"nguttara i,222)..." What do you think? c: yeah, I think it's the same sutta & the Asl explains the meaning quite well; there's my bias showing again. There can be "change" in the strength of a given dhamma during it's 'life-cycle' but it's individual essence does not change... temperature is not cohesiveness and taste is not sound. peace, connie #94932 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:05 am Subject: Greetings dkotschessa Hi folks, my name is Dave. I have been lurking for a bit and am just saying hi. I'm active on a few other yahoo groups, and most active on e-sangha under the name Meindzai. I think I saw my old pal Robert Epstein from usenet here. If that's you Robert, good to see you! And hello to anyone from E-sangha or elsewhere. My latest emphasis in my Dhamma study has been over to Abhidhamma - I'm grateful to have found this group as I am currently going through Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life." I'm approaching it very slowly - about a chapter a week is enough for me to digest. It has really filled in a lot of gaps for me so I'm greatly appreciative of it. So I will be posting some Abhidhamma questions here and gladly participating in any other discussion too. This looks like a very knowledgeable group. -Dave K #94933 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings nilovg Dear Dave, welcome here. I am glad to hear that you are interested in the Abhidhamma. I am looking forward to any questions you may have. What do you think about nama and rupa? How do you see the connection of Abhidhamma and your life now? Nina. #94934 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:42 am Subject: Re: thinking and vitakka szmicio thanks for vitakka, Sarah. > p.s. Btw, I heard a good comment of KS's in response to a friend's > concern about slow progress, lack of panna, frustration on the path > and so on: > > KS: "Because you want to be panna". And later, "Because it's Self". > > When I come across the comments again, I'll try to transcribe them. L: Recently I forget about reality and cling to points of view. Akusala are really strong. No chance to get out from this. Best wishes Lukas #94935 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The object of meditation in metta meditation truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, > sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Sat, 10/1/09, Alex wrote: > >The loving kindness feeling is felt better in, or near, what we >call > physical heart. But in any case one shouldn't focus too much on the > precise location and 'shape' of the feeling. Just the feeling, and > absorb into it. > .... > S: Can you tell me in your own simple words what metta is, absence of hatred and positive counterpart of feeling of hatred. >what you mean by 'the feeling' mental state. > and what you mean by 'absorb into it'? Make it a center of attention and focus as much attention to it as possible. >What is the object of metta? In sitting meditation the mental state of non-anger, friendliness, > How is such metta as you describe wholesome (kusala)? Counteracts 5 hindrances if used as absorption meditation and deals with anger in particular. with Metta, Alex #94936 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:53 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Alberto! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > Believe it or not I hate spoiling people's fun, I use to enjoy formal > meditation myself, I was just answering the question you asked me - > Alberto Ha ha, well I'll try not to get too overwrought about it. Obviously each person will do what they think is best. If you feel like answering any of the questions I raised, I'd be very curious about how you might address them. No worries about spoiling my fun; I'm sure I can manage to do that independently..... ;-) Best, Robert #94937 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 robmoult Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > ===== > > > > Where Does the Mind Reside? > > > > This conference has touched upon the subject of cellular memory, > > which is defined by Wikipedia as "the hypothesis that such things as > > memories, habits, interests, and tastes may somehow be stored in all > > the cells of human bodies, not only in the brain. The suggestion is > > based largely around anecdotal evidence of organ transplants after > > which the recipient was reported to have developed new habits or > > memories." > > If I can inherit the habits and memories of others (and I don't > dispute the evidence for a minute), then this is proof positive that > beings do not inherit only the effects of their own kamma. > ===== During the conference, there were a number of clips from Discovery Channel programmes shown. One of them involved a girl in Sri Lanka who remembered her past life and details of her death. They were then able to track down the past family and confirm the details. There is a section coming up in the paper on Past Life Regression which explains this in terms of pakatûpanissaya (Natural Decisive Support Condition). These memories are not "inherited" in a technical sense as there was no bilogical connection between the girl in this existence and the girl in her previous existence. However, this shows that accumulations (memory and habits come from accumulations) do continue with the "life stream" (bhavanga-sota), so they are "inherited" in an alegorical sense. There was another video highlighting a number of heart transplant patients who, after receiving a new heart, suddenly underwent a slight personality change and took on the habits of the heart donor. This is not two sets of consciousness (posession) and not a "shared past kamma", but rather a shared set of accumulations. This suggests that the organ of the heart may pay a role as a storehouse of accumulations (Yogacara's alaya-vijnana); I do not believe that there is any Theravadin equivalent. To incorporate this into the Theravadin Abhdidhamma, I suggested that the whole body acted as "that matter in dependence on which the mind element and the mind consciousness element occur". There were some doctors in the room who mentioned that the medical journals had never recorded any transfer of habits when other organs were transplanted... it only happens with heart transplants. I posited that perhaps the heart organ had a "stronger concentration" of accumulations and the other organs had a "weaker concentration" (I am skating on thin ice here :-) ). I would like to differentiate here between kamma and habits. According to the Patthana, volitional states of mind can be a conditioning factor for future vipaka (kamma-resultant) states of mind through asynchronous kamma condition. This is kamma. According to the Patthana, certain strong past objects, mental states or concepts can condition all future mental states (not just vipaka mental states). These are habits. Both of these conditions transcend death. Comments and future discussion welcome! Metta, Rob M :-) #94938 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:58 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana epsteinrob Hi Howard! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > P. S. Thanks for the links! :-) It happens that I own Ajahn Brahmavamso's > book, but it's not a favorite of mine. Your comments on jhana make sense. I think that 'non-intellectual understanding' may well be an active factor in a state in which concept is suspended. Re. the book. Bramavamso seems a little stiff in some ways. I've gotten a lot out of some taped lectures I have of his, but have not really done much with the book, although I think I will reference it for the outline and some of the specifics. Some rigid ideas on what is required for the path....? What is it that you don't like about it? Best, Robert ===================== #94939 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana epsteinrob Hi Nina! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: When hearing hears a sound, even from far away, even if he does > not pay attention, the citta is of the sense-sphere, not jhaanacitta. > Nina. I guess what I was saying was that even if you don't consider that "first jhana" description to be a true jhana, by the second jhana there seems to be some agreement that there is no sensory awarenesss. Best, Robert ======================== #94940 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:08 pm Subject: Re: Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 robmoult Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > My overall comment on the subject of dying is that it is just a > moment of conditioned consciousness. It was preceded by a moment of > consciousness and it will be followed by another moment of > consciousness. > > There is nothing more special about the dying citta than there is > about any other citta. There is no self (atta) that will either go > on, or not go on, to the next citta. (Just as there is not self that > will either go on, or not go on, from the present citta.) > > I think your readers need to appreciate that. Don't tell them any > more about dying until they do. ===== I did describe death exactly as you have said but also mentioned that this was the Theravdin view as it evolved about fifteen centuries after the Buddha's parinibbana. This model is not from the Suttas or from the orginal Abhidhamma texts. It is not shared by the other speakers representing the Nikaya-Agama, Mahayana or Tibetan traditions. It would have been a pretty short conference if I had insisted that the non-Theravadins reject their models and accept the Theravadin model before talking more about dying! :-) Metta, Rob M :-) #94941 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa, Survey Ch 34, no. 12. egberdina Hi All, 2009/1/13 Nina van Gorkom : > Dear friends, > > Q. : What is the difference between the practice which is natural and > the practice which is unnatural? > > S. : At this moment you are sitting in a natural way and you may be > aware of realities which appear, such as softness or hardness, > presenting themselves through the bodysense, or visible object > appearing through the eyesense. All these dhammas appear naturally. In nature, events follow the path of least resistance. The path of a rock as it rolls down a hill is effortless, natural and explainable as the consequence of the characteristics of the rock, the forces acting on it, and the greater and lesser obstacles and resistances in it's way. A rock neither knows nor cares where it is has been or where it is going. On the other hand, there is no behaviour of a healthy adult human being that is natural, without effort directed at achieving some goal, or that is entirely the consequence of given facts. Nor are any of the goals to which humans aspire natural, or one more natural than another. Conflating events with action(kamma) is determinism, and that view is about as Buddhist as the suggestion that the Noble Eight Fold Path is the path of least resistance. Cheers Herman #94942 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cornerstone - AN i 222 egberdina Hi Scott, 2009/1/15 Scott : > Dear connie, > Scott: We know from the Abhidhamma clarifications, improvements on > which are not possible, The Abhidhamma is a book. It is nothing more than bound pages, full of letters and empty spaces. It has no power to clarify or obfuscate. In itself, the Abhidhamma lacks meaning altogether. Whatever value or meaning or power you see in the Abhidhamma, you have given to it. With this in mind, I understand you to be saying that it is your understanding of the Abhidhamma which will not be improved upon. Cheers Herman #94943 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:11 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to kenhowardau Hi Robert E, -------- <. . .> KH: > > they are actually descriptions of conditioned > dhammas and explanations as to how they arose, performed their > functions and fell away. RE: > Well, if that is the case, why would you resist doing the same as those who are described in such suttas? --------- You have misunderstood me: I said the suttas were "descriptions of conditioned dhammas . . ." and yet you have asked, "Well, if that is the case, why would you resist doing the same as those who are described in such suttas?" "Those who are described in the suttas" are conditioned dhammas - things that appear for a tiny fraction of a second and immediately disappear forever. Is that what you want me to do? :-) ----------------------------- RE: > Why would those who believe this to be the case make it a decision - most likely based on the ego - that they will avoid such meditation and not work the way that the Buddha described as bringing success? ----------------------------- In absolute reality the work is done or avoided by paramattha dhammas. *For purposes of communication* we can talk as if it is done or avoided by sentient beings. But if we insist the work really is done or avoided by sentient beings then we are insisting on wrong view. Any real meditation work is done by a single, fleeting, citta. Each citta occurs - and its work is done - when the required conditions for its appearing are present. There is no sentient being involved. There is no need for a sentient being! Dhammas occur, or cease to occur, purely by conditions. ---------------------------------------- RE: > And what makes you think that you know this? A philosophical predisposition against any form of imperative instruction? ---------------------------------------- Years ago, while reading DSG, I began to understand this profound unique teaching. Since then I have seen all suttas in a new light. They are not talking about conventional practices at all! There is no efficacy - no inherent characteristic - in conventional practices. Therefore, I could never go back to conventional notions of vipassana, samatha, dana and sila practices. I now know those them for what they are. They are mere concepts, and any belief in their efficacy is clearly wrong belief (micha-ditthi). Nothing could be more obvious to me. How could I go back now? ---------------------- RE: > Is not the way of studying dhammas that you propose a set of instructions as well? ---------------------- No! Instructions - as distinct from understanding - belong to a conventional notion of the world. The idea of studying for the purposes of gaining something later is conventional wisdom. It applies to sentient beings (beings that persist from the present moment to the desired, future moment). ------------------------------- RE: > And how does this not engage the ego just as much as taking the Satipatthana Sutta as a skillful roadmap for right mindfulness in meditation? -------------------------------- If Dhamma-study is seen in a conventional light then it definitely does 'engage the ego' (i.e., the idea of a persisting self) just as much as any other formal practice done with the idea of creating satipatthana 'engages the ego.' ----------------------------------------------- RE: > Even leaving aside such a line of questioning, to which I would be happy to see your response, I use a certain degree of common sense in seeing what a written work is about. If it is clearly a set of instructions, I don't try to bend over backwards to turn it into something else by softening a preposition or replacing a hard verb with a softer one, or whatever the case may be. ----------------------------------------------- Good! So why don't you do the correspondingly right thing when you read a Dhamma book? According to Dhamma books, sentient beings and their activities are just concepts - not realities. The only real actors and the only real actions are conditioned dhammas and their functions. Why don't you accept that? Why do you insist on going back to conventional explanations of the world? --------------------------------- RE: > If I read a treatise that described the way in which someone hammers in a nail in order to hammer it in straight and create a solid join between two pieces of wood, my reaction would not be: "Well, this is clearly not an instruction for how to use a hammer, but merely an accidental description of what some people happened to do when they came across a hammer and accidentally built a house. It certainly does not imply that this is a skillful way to build a house that someone else might want to follow. ----------------------------------- That is not my reaction either. Nothing like it! You are mixing conventional explanations with paramattha explanations in order to make anatta look silly. --------------------------------------------- RE: > Instead we should read about the nature of nails and wood for a very long period of time and then at some later date we may be qualified to very tentatively pick up the hammer." --------------------------------------------- In absolute reality no one (and no thing) has the luxury of "a very long time." It is now or never. The Dhamma is about understanding now that there are only paramattha dhammas now. --------------------------------------- RE: > Instead I believe that a normal approach - trying to discern what is there and then failing, and then learning from mistakes, makes a lot more sense than avoiding the endeavor for a much more reserved and reverent approach to the instruction manual. On the other hand, I appreciate the desire to actually understand what the path is, and the Abdhidhamma is a work of brilliance well beyond simple comprehension. But I don't think that applying it in practice while studying it is dangerous - I think it is necessary. ----------------------------------------- Formal vipassana practice requires a denial of vipassana. It might be fun, but it can only be done when there is wrong understanding. Be warned! :-) Ken H #94944 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. egberdina Hi Alberto, 2009/1/14 sprlrt : > Hi Robert E, > > > The self can cling to anything, including pariyatti, accumulating more > lobha/attachment in the process, insted of alobha, detachment. But > proper pariyatti, studying & considering the Dhamma for the sake of > understanding dhammas themselves, without expectating (the self) to > gain anything, not with a result-based, self-based approach, is the > main condition for sati to be able to arise and accumulate until it > becomes as natural as lobha normally is, they are both conditioned and > conditioning dhammas in the same way, the self can't induce nor > understand them, only conditions and panna can. > Your stated belief that a self can cling doesn't inspire confidence that you actually understand the things you repeat. Cheers Herman #94945 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/15/2009 5:58:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Hi Howard! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > P. S. Thanks for the links! :-) It happens that I own Ajahn Brahmavamso's > book, but it's not a favorite of mine. Your comments on jhana make sense. I think that 'non-intellectual understanding' may well be an active factor in a state in which concept is suspended. Re. the book. Bramavamso seems a little stiff in some ways. I've gotten a lot out of some taped lectures I have of his, but have not really done much with the book, although I think I will reference it for the outline and some of the specifics. Some rigid ideas on what is required for the path....? What is it that you don't like about it? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I wish I could be specific. It's been a while since I looked at it, and I never did manage to get through it. I suppose it just didn't resonate with me. I vaguely recall that I found it too "formulaic" and that it just didn't match up with my personal experience. I wish I could tell you that I'd go back and look it over so that I could give you a more specific answer, but I really can't summon up the anti-aversion required! ;-)) --------------------------------------- Best, Robert ======================= With metta, Howard (From the Avarana Sutta) #94946 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:25 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to epsteinrob Hi Ken. > <. . .> > KH: > > they are actually descriptions of conditioned > > dhammas and explanations as to how they arose, performed their > > functions and fell away. > > RE: > Well, if that is the case, why would you resist doing the same > as those who are described in such suttas? > --------- > > You have misunderstood me: I said the suttas were "descriptions of > conditioned dhammas . . ." and yet you have asked, "Well, if that is > the case, why would you resist doing the same as those who are > described in such suttas?" > > "Those who are described in the suttas" are conditioned dhammas - > things that appear for a tiny fraction of a second and immediately > disappear forever. Is that what you want me to do? :-) If one discusses whether or not meditation is efficacious, or what are the activities that lead to wisdom, one is making a choice of method and philosophy, whether it happens in a string of moments with certain characteristics, or whether it is done volitionally. Either way, you cannot, I would argue, say on the one hand, "Reading and understanding the commentaries and understanding the nature of dhammas through clarification will lead to nibbana," and on the other hand say "There is no such thing as choosing x or choosing y, there are just arising conditions," when you have already clearly chosen x over y. Then when the subject of meditation comes up, you say "Well there's nothing really to say about it, because it is just arising conditions." But you don't say the same thing about understanding dhammas. When that comes up, you say "that is the way that leads to nibbana." I am saying that Buddha said that meditation is the way to understand dhammas and that leads to nibbana, so I am asking whether you can contradict that or not, and why you have chosen x over y, whether it is a matter of arising conditions or not. You cannot, I would argue, deny that one group has chosen to practice x, or at least are practicing x with a certain expectation, and the other group is practicing y, feeling that this is the beneficial way to work. > ----------------------------- > RE: > Why would those who believe > this to be the case make it a decision - most likely based on the ego > - that they will avoid such meditation and not work the way that > the Buddha described as bringing success? > ----------------------------- > > In absolute reality the work is done or avoided by paramattha > dhammas. *For purposes of communication* we can talk as if it is done > or avoided by sentient beings. But if we insist the work really is > done or avoided by sentient beings then we are insisting on wrong > view. > > Any real meditation work is done by a single, fleeting, citta. Each > citta occurs - and its work is done - when the required conditions > for its appearing are present. There is no sentient being involved. > There is no need for a sentient being! Dhammas occur, or cease to > occur, purely by conditions. I feel that this is skirting the point. I am not talking about, or denying this mechanism, I am talking about what this mechanism happens to be in the service of. The cittas that practice sutta study are a different group of cittas then practice meditational discernment, so taking that as a given, what do you have to say about the practice itself? > > ---------------------------------------- > RE: > And what makes you think that you know this? A philosophical > predisposition against any form of imperative instruction? > ---------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------- > RE: > And how does this not engage the ego just as much as taking the > Satipatthana Sutta as a skillful roadmap for right mindfulness in > meditation? > -------------------------------- > > If Dhamma-study is seen in a conventional light then it definitely > does 'engage the ego' (i.e., the idea of a persisting self) just as > much as any other formal practice done with the idea of creating > satipatthana 'engages the ego.' Then does it matter how you practice? Why are so many comments made that somehow meditation will lead to akusala concentration, while this comment is never found about reading and learning from the commentaries. Why is that? > > ----------------------------------------------- > RE: > Even leaving aside such a line of questioning, to which I would > be happy to see your response, I use a certain degree of common sense > in seeing what a written work is about. If it is clearly a set of > instructions, I don't try to bend over backwards to turn it into > something else by softening a preposition or replacing a hard verb > with a softer one, or whatever the case may be. > ----------------------------------------------- > > Good! So why don't you do the correspondingly right thing when you > read a Dhamma book? According to Dhamma books, sentient beings and > their activities are just concepts - not realities. The only real > actors and the only real actions are conditioned dhammas and their > functions. Why don't you accept that? Why do you insist on going back > to conventional explanations of the world? > Again, I am not talking about the mechanism of reality or of understanding - I am talking about the form of practice. We talk about jhanna-cittas and other forms of cittas, but what I am saying is that certain types of practice are being avoided. The fact that they are described conventionally or non-conventionally is not the point. If you are saying there is no practice, there is only realization of the nature of dhammas in the present moment, then you should be just as happy to throw away the teachings as to throw away meditation practice. Teachings are conventional as well. Words are conventional - they only affect us through concepts. You ought to then get rid of everything and just do your normal activities focusing on the nature of dhammas at all times, and not study or practice in any way. I don't personally subscribe to this philosophy, but if you truly believe that all talk of practice is mere conceptual delusion, then why would you be involved in all this discussion of dhammas? Is it not conceptual in nature, clouding the nature of your natural understanding of direct contact with dhammas? > --------------------------------- > RE: > If I read a treatise > that described the way in which someone hammers in a nail in order to > hammer it in straight and create a solid join between two pieces of > wood, my reaction would not be: "Well, this is clearly not an > instruction for how to use a hammer, but merely an accidental > description of what some people happened to do when they came across a > hammer and accidentally built a house. It certainly does not imply > that this is a skillful way to build a house that someone else might > want to follow. > ----------------------------------- > > That is not my reaction either. Nothing like it! > > You are mixing conventional explanations with paramattha explanations > in order to make anatta look silly. Well then what is your approach? You say it's not this and I should not think conventionally, but you don't describe what is the alternative in your view. How does one awaken? What conditions and situations lead to kusala accumulations that lead to nibbana? > > --------------------------------------------- > RE: > Instead we should read about the nature of nails and > wood for a very long period of time and then at some later date we may > be qualified to very tentatively pick up the hammer." > --------------------------------------------- > > In absolute reality no one (and no thing) has the luxury of "a very > long time." It is now or never. And what do you focus on now in order to see the nature of dhammas? > > The Dhamma is about understanding now that there are only paramattha > dhammas now. > > --------------------------------------- > RE: > Instead I > believe that a normal approach - trying to discern what is there and > then failing, and then learning from mistakes, makes a lot more sense > than avoiding the endeavor for a much more reserved and reverent > approach to the instruction manual. > > On the other hand, I appreciate the desire to actually understand what > the path is, and the Abdhidhamma is a work of brilliance well beyond > simple comprehension. But I don't think that applying it in > practice while studying it is dangerous - I think it is necessary. > ----------------------------------------- > > Formal vipassana practice requires a denial of vipassana. It might be > fun, but it can only be done when there is wrong understanding. Be > warned! :-) > > Ken H And what is the alternative? Describe so that one can discern what you are talking about, please, rather than just warning that this and that are wrong - which by the way, is a form of giving instruction, which I believe you also think is conventional and conceptual. Clearly you are making choices about what you believe is kusala or akusala, which means you are dealing in concepts. Robert = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #94947 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana in Jhana epsteinrob Hi Howard! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: I wish I could tell you that I'd go > back and look it over so that I could give you a more specific answer, but I > really can't summon up the anti-aversion required! ;-)) He he, no problem Howard. Your explanation accords with a bit of a feeling I have myself, and I can understand it. No need to go back to the book, unless sometime you feel like processing those aversion feelings. :-) Hearing about that would probably be more interesting than hearing about the book! Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = = = = #94948 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner buddhatrue Hi Sarah (Scott and others in this thread), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > Sarah: Even now, metta can only be to those around us, those we meet, those who are living. > > I'd like to discuss this further in due course. > > Metta and appreciation for the thread and discussion. Also to James and all the others for their contributions to it. > James: I would like to address the two ideas you make in the above statement "metta can only be to those around us, those we meet" and "those who are living"...both of which I believe are incorrect. I will turn to two suttas for support. First, as to "metta can only be to those around us, those we meet" this is not how the Buddha taught the cultivation of metta and will only result in "fake metta" (being nice to someone on the surface but not really feeling it). Here is a sutta quote: "...They may address you with a mind of good-will or with inner hate. In any event, you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic to that person's welfare, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading him with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all- encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will ¡X abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.021x.than.html James: I want to point out some important things about this quote. First, it states "you should train yourselves" so we are talking about beginners. So, even for beginnners, they should radiate metta toward enemies or those who speak with ill-will. Secondly, it states "and, beginning with him, we will keep pervading the all- encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will- abundant, expansive, immeasurable". It is not enough to develop good will just toward those we meet; the good will toward those we meet must be expanded to all being everywhere- even those we will never meet. Okay, the second issue, radiating metta toward a dead person. The Vism. says not to do that but I disagree. Let me turn to another sutta: Think: Happy, at rest, may all beings be happy at heart. Whatever beings there may be, weak or strong, without exception, long, large, middling, short, subtle, blatant, seen & unseen, near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.08.than.html James: I want to draw attention to the last category: "born and seeking birth". Someone "born" is obviously alive, someone "seeking birth" is obviously dead. However, metta is supposed to be radiated toward both types of beings equally- those who are presently alive and those who have died. This, again, contradicts what the Vism. teaches in this regard. Metta, James #94949 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Dave, > welcome here. I am glad to hear that you are interested in the > Abhidhamma. I am looking forward to any questions you may have. What > do you think about nama and rupa? I have to say that when I read the first chapter of ADL I spent a lot of time on this distinction. (And still am) I discovered that my understanding of Dhamma had some remaining traces of physicalism. Though I knew better in theory, I was at some level conflating the non-form aggregates (feelings, perceptions, volitional formations, consiousness) with physical processes in the brain - which would in fact make them rupa. It's hard to describe how subtle this view was that I was carrying, but I have to say I spent quite a bit of time considering it's implications. I am still pretty conditioned towards physicalism, but I hold dhammic views. (The Apannaka sutta was a breakthrough for me in that regard - the Buddha's version of Pascal's Wager). >How do you see the connection of > Abhidhamma and your life now? I feel like my Sutta study up until this point has been bricks and that Abhidhamma is the cement. I'm reading the suttas a bit differently now and doubt tends to creep up a lot less for me. I'm reading the Suttas a little differently too. On a more personal level I think it's become useful for me to consider my experience in terms of an arising and passing of cittas. I think I am starting to understand now why things can seem a lot more complicated in life than in the Suttas - which are written in an idealized way. That is to say, how can I feel both loving kindness and yet still feel aversion at the same time, when this is supposed to be impossible? This is easy for me to understand if I consider that I can experience the arising and passing of cittas with metta cetasikas and dosa cetasikas perhaps going back in forth. I can really appreciate what the Buddha said when he was unable to come up with a suitable metaphor to describe how quickly the mind changes. So, I'm getting quite a bit out of this, and so far I'm only on Chapter 4. So it's been a great help. Thank you for your efforts. -Dave K #94950 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:58 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi RobErt, > If you feel like answering any of the questions I raised, I'd be very curious about how you might address them. As I see it, based on K. Sujin writings and tapes, as well as on what is in tipitaka, the Dhamma can be approached basically in two ways, the right and wrong way, samma and miccha. My understanding is that whenever there is the "I should do this or I should that" in order to get something in return from the time and (wrong) effort one puts into it, less suffering for instance, or more happiness, is wrong, miccha. So we can have miccha pariyatti, wrong study of the Dhamma, miccha patipatti, wrong practice of the Dhamma and miccha pativeda, wrong results of the Dhamma. Presuming to uncover the same dhammas in the same way the Buddha did, i.e. just sitting and "meditating" is, imo, bound to fail and also a bit foolish, since His Dhamma is readily available and can provide the right theory on which understanding of the actual dhammas can develop. Alberto #94951 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Herman, > > Your stated belief that a self can cling doesn't inspire confidence > that you actually understand the things you repeat. > You've got a point here, a self just clings. My selling skills are poor, I know that :-) Alberto #94952 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings christine_fo... > Hello Dave, Glad to see you made it over to dsg ~ Cooran here. :-) This is the best place to learn about Abhidhamma, with very knowledgeable friends to give you the benefit of their deep understanding. All questions are great - we all learn from them. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #94953 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Dave, thank you for your interesting remarks. Maybe I can add something. A chapter a week is quite a lot and even in Ch 1, there is a lot to be explained and discussed, it is very compact. Op 16-jan-2009, om 0:33 heeft dkotschessa het volgende geschreven: > I have to say that when I read the first chapter of ADL I spent a > lot of time on this distinction. (And still am) I discovered that > my understanding of Dhamma had some remaining traces of > physicalism. > > Though I knew better in theory, I was at some level conflating the > non-form aggregates (feelings, perceptions, volitional formations, > consiousness) with physical processes in the brain - which would in > fact make them rupa. ------ N: Yes, beause of our upbringing, the science we learnt, we are inclined to emphasize the brain. I brought this up decads ago when visiting Kh Sujin in her house in Bangkok where I used to come two or three times a week with all my questions. She said, blood, brain, they are all conditions for nama. In other words, nobody denies the brain, but when we are more precise, they are actually rupas, physical phenomena. Take the brain out and you see colour, or touch it, there is hardness. These rupas do not experience anything, but feeling and the other khandhas do. ------- > > D: It's hard to describe how subtle this view was that I was carrying, > but I have to say I spent quite a bit of time considering it's > implications. I am still pretty conditioned towards physicalism, > but I hold dhammic views. (The Apannaka sutta was a breakthrough > for me in that regard - the Buddha's version of Pascal's Wager). ------ N: It helps to see that nama conditions rupa and rupa conditions nama. Remember Ch 1, the men and the boat: 'Depending each upon the other The boat and men go on the sea. And so do mind and matter both Depend the one upon the other.' When seeing arises, it is dependent on colour, its object, which is rupa, and on eyesense which is rupa. When seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing tangible object, we can consider this in our life. ---------- > > N: >How do you see the connection of > > Abhidhamma and your life now? > > D: I feel like my Sutta study up until this point has been bricks and > that Abhidhamma is the cement. I'm reading the suttas a bit > differently now and doubt tends to creep up a lot less for me. I'm > reading the Suttas a little differently too. ------- N: At first sutta reading may seem simple, but their meaning is deeper than one would think at first sight, and here the Abhidhamma helps all the time. -------- > > D: On a more personal level I think it's become useful for me to > consider my experience in terms of an arising and passing of > cittas. I think I am starting to understand now why things can seem > a lot more complicated in life than in the Suttas - which are > written in an idealized way. > > That is to say, how can I feel both loving kindness and yet still > feel aversion at the same time, when this is supposed to be > impossible? This is easy for me to understand if I consider that I > can experience the arising and passing of cittas with metta > cetasikas and dosa cetasikas perhaps going back in forth. I can > really appreciate what the Buddha said when he was unable to come up > with a suitable metaphor to describe how quickly the mind changes. -------- N: Even on a theoretical level it helps to know that there can be only one citta at a time experiencing one object. We can also understand how treacherous lobha is: when there is pleasant feeling about some good deed we do, immediately there is lobha that clings to 'my good deed' or 'I am a good person.' ------- > > D: So, I'm getting quite a bit out of this, and so far I'm only on > Chapter 4. So it's been a great help. Thank you for your efforts. ----- N: This is about the characteristic of lobha. This arises all the time in daily life. We take it for my lobha, but when we understand more about its conditions, it will help us, at least in theory, to understand that it is non-self. It arises before we realize it, but gradually it can be understood as it is. It is not the name lobha that is important, but when it appears its characteristic can be understood. This is the purpose of the Abhidhamma. Not just remembering terms, but understanding that these represent realities of daily life. Such understanding leads to detachment from the idea of self. This is also the teaching of the suttas, but together with the Abhidhamma we shall understand more what our life is, what it is that we take for a person, a being. ****** Nina. #94954 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: thinking and vitakka nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 15-jan-2009, om 20:42 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > L: Recently I forget about reality and cling to points of view. > Akusala are really strong. No chance to get out from this. --------- N: No matter akusala is strong or subtle it has conditions, and instead of having aversion about it, it helps to see it as only a dhamma, not yours. There is a way to get out of it, but it is not as fast as you would wish. It is the long way of understanding on and on of whatever reality appears, including akusala. Remember, the sotaapanna has eradicated wrong view, but not all akusala. He cannot commit grave crimes leading to an unhappy rebirth, he keeps the five precepts perfectly, but he still clings, he still has aversion. Kh Sujin used to say: begin again, begin again. There is just the present moment and no use to regret the past. Nina. #94955 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner nilovg Hi James, Op 16-jan-2009, om 5:48 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > James: I want to draw attention to the last category: "born and > seeking birth". Someone "born" is obviously alive, someone "seeking > birth" is obviously dead. However, metta is supposed to be radiated > toward both types of beings equally- those who are presently alive > and those who have died. This, again, contradicts what the Vism. > teaches in this regard. ------- N: Metta is extended to all liuving creatures, it is said. As to seeking birth, (Pali: sambhavesino), the Co explains (In the Illustrator of Ultime Meaning): I type only one example, there are more aspects to it. Nina. #94956 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:39 am Subject: Survey, Ch 35, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Q. : We all want to know what to do so that we can begin now with the practice of vipassanå. S. : One should be aware of the characteristics of the realities which appear. When sati is aware of whatever reality appears, vitakka cetasika which is “right thinking”, sammå-sankappa, of the eightfold Path, touches or “hits” the characteristic of the object which is appearing. At that moment paññå can begin to study and to gradually realize the true nature of that object. In that way paññå can develop. Pa~n~naa may not be keen enough yet to consider and study the realities which arise and fall away again very rapidly. For example, when there is hearing, sati may arise and be aware of hearing, just for a moment, but pa~n~naa may not be keen enough yet to investigate that characteristic in order to know it as only a nåma which experiences sound. The nåma which hears has completely fallen away. In the beginning there is not yet clear understanding of realities such as hearing, but this is quite normal. Nobody can investigate the true nature of sound and of the nåma which hears, by trying to catch them or to get hold of them. However, the nåma which hears will surely arise again and if one develops sati and paññå, there can be awareness again of the nåma which hears. Now, at this moment, sati can arise and be aware of one characteristic of nåma or rúpa at a time, as it appears through one of the six doorways. In this way paññå can gradually develop to the degree of clearly knowing the difference between the characteristic of nåma and the characteristic of rúpa. Paññå will, for example, be able to distinguish between the characteristic of the nåma which hears and of the rúpa which is sound. These are different characteristics and they should be known one at a time. Eventually one will become more familiar with the true nature of nåma and of rúpa and then the understanding of their characteristics will become more accomplished. No matter which type of nåma or rúpa appears, and no matter where, awareness and understanding of them can naturally arise, and that is the development of satipatthåna in daily life. When understanding develops and becomes more accomplished, ignorance can gradually be eliminated. ******* Nina. #94957 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suttas- the time to let go nilovg Dear Suan, how are you? Op 14-jan-2009, om 9:23 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > Suan to James: I think that, when you declared it was time to > practice now, you > meant practice of formal meditation comprising both samatha and > vipassnaa. That amounts to activation of Siilapaaramii, > Nikkhamapaaramii, Khantiipaaramii, Viirirapaaramii, > Adhi.t.thaanapaaramii, Mettaapaaramii, and Paññaapaaramii. --------- N: I am glad you emphasize the perfections. Kh Sujin's book on this subject is available on line (Zolag). There are many quotes from the texts that Ven. Bodhi translated, and the whole book is a constant reminder of the importance to really apply the perfections in one's life. If you give your postal address it is just my pleasure to send you a hard cover. ------------ > > S: I also note that your declaration of your intention to pursue the > practice of formal Buddhist meditation is in stark contrast to the > anti-formal-practice stance of the followers or sympathisers of a > lay puthujjana teacher, whom you once criticised on this forum, and > whose views also seem to go against the Buddha's Theravada teachings > preserved in Pali Tipitaka. --------- N: Now I remember a very moving poem you once published about rain when you were blamed by someone but felt unaffected. I was impressed by your attitude and thought of this several times afterwards and would be very happy if you could reproduce the text. The content was something like: let the rain rain where it pleases, but I am not hindered. It is a reminder of the Buddha's saying to discuss Dhamma and not persons. We do not mind what this or that person says, but we have to develop 'our own understanding' as Kh Sujin often says. It is the Dhamma that matters, not the person. We check the Dhamma we hear ourselves, and of course there will be different opinions, but that does not really matter. Best wishes from Nina. #94958 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner buddhatrue Hi Nina, > ------- > N: Metta is extended to all liuving creatures, it is said. > As to seeking birth, (Pali: sambhavesino), the Co explains (In the > Illustrator of Ultime Meaning): the four kinds of womb generation(see e.g. M i.73), creatures that > are eggborn or uterus-born are called those that yet seek to be as > long as they have not broken the egg-membrane or the caul- membrane > [respectively];... > I type only one example, there are more aspects > to it. James: I don't really buy this commentary explanation. First, it doesn't fit in with the sutta. The sutta reads: "weak or strong, without exception, long, large, middling, short, subtle, blatant, seen & unseen, near & far, born & seeking birth:" These are all opposite pairs. According to Buddhism, life begins at conception. So, there is really no opposite between a being that is born and a being still in the womb. Secondly, could a being in the womb be said to be "seeking birth"? I don't think so. The seeking of birth is at the stage of death, the last consciousness. Now, if the Buddha had said "born and yet- to-be born" I would agree with the commentary. But, as it stands, I don't". Actually, this lines suggests some sort of bardo phase to the rebirth process; but that's a different subject. My point is that no one, not even a dead relative, should be excluded from metta. My brother and sister are dead and I extend metta and good wishes to them often. That doesn't mean that I think that they receive those blessings in the grave. I know that they are alive in another form. You say to radiate metta to only those who are alive. But, according to the Vism., we all die repeatedly when dhammas arise and pass away. So, just where are the "alive" beings to recieve this metta? For that matter, where are the "dead" beings? Metta, James #94959 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:57 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing (in three parts today, due to length): The Path of Purification. (I) "22. But if irritation still arises in him in spite of his efforts, then he should admonish himself thus: 'Suppose an enemy hurt You now in what is his domain, Why try yourself as well to hurt Your mind? - That is not his domain. 'In tears you left your family, They had been kind and helpful too, So why not leave your enemy, The anger that brings harm to you? 'This anger that you entertain Is gnawing at the very roots Of all the virtues that you guard - Who is there such a fool as you? 'Another does ignoble deeds, So you are angry - How is this? Do you then want to copy too The sort of acts that he commits? 'Suppose another, to annoy, Provokes you with some odious act. Why suffer anger to spring up, And do as he would have you do? 'If you get angry, then maybe You make him suffer, maybe not; Though with the hurt that anger brings You certainly are punished now. 'If anger-blinded enemies Set out to tread the path of woe, Do you by getting angry too Intend to follow heel to toe? 'If hurt is done you by a foe Because of anger on your part, Then put your anger down, for why Should you be harassed groundlessly? 'Since states last but a moment's time Those aggregates, by which was done The odious act, have ceased, so now What is it you are angry with? 'Whom shall be hurt, who seeks to hurt Another, in the other's absence? Your presence is the cause of hurt; Why are you angry, then, with him? Sincerely, Scott. #94960 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:09 am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing (in three parts today, due to length): (II) The Path of Purity "If in spite of his efforts hatred still arises, then he should reprove himself thus: - 'If in his sphere thy foe lays pain on thee, Why dost thou wish to suffer in they mind Outside his sphere? Thou canst give up the kith And kin who have done thee great services, With tearful face. Why canst thou not forsake Thine anger-foe that has done thee much harm? Thou play'st with anger that uprooteth precepts That thou has kept. Is there a fool like thee? Thou waxest wroth because someone has done Thee harm. Then couldst thou do unto thyself The selfsame thing? Someone wishing to rouse Thy anger does thee some unpleasant thing. Fulfillest thou his joy by waxing wroth? Angry, thou mayest cause him harm or not; But on thyself thou now inflictest pain That comes of anger. If thy enemies Pursue the unprofitable path of wrath, Why dost thou imitate their angry deeds? Cut off that hate by which thy foe has done Thee harm. Why frettest thou where no occasion is? Because at every moment states break up, Those aggregates which caused thee harm have ceased. With which of these art thou in anger now? When on someone a man inflicteth pain, No one gets pain beside the sufferer. Thou art thyself the cause of pain. Then why Wouldst thou get angry with another man?" Sincerely, Scott. #94961 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:17 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing (in three parts today, due to length): (III) Sace panassa evampi vaayamato aaghaato uppajjatiyeva, athaanena eva.m attaa ovaditabbo â€" 'Attano visaye dukkha.m, kata.m te yadi verinaa; Ki.m tassaavisaye dukkha.m, sacitte kattumicchasi. 'Bahuupakaara.m hitvaana, ~naativagga.m rudammukha.m; Mahaanatthakara.m kodha.m, sapatta.m na jahaasi ki.m. 'Yaani rakkhasi siilaani, tesa.m muulanikantana.m; Kodha.m naamupa.laalesi, ko tayaa sadiso ja.lo. 'Kata.m anariya.m kamma.m, parena iti kujjhasi; Ki.m nu tva.m taadisa.myeva, yo saya.m kattumicchasi. 'Dosetukaamo yadi ta.m, amanaapa.m paro kari; Dosuppaadena tasseva, ki.m puuresi manoratha.m. 'Dukkha.m tassa ca naama tva.m, kuddho kaahasi vaa navaa; Attaana.m panidaaneva, kodhadukkhena baadhasi. 'Kodha.m vaa ahita.m magga.m, aaruu.lhaa yadi verino; Kasmaa tuvampi kujjhanto, tesa.myevaanusikkhasi. 'Ya.m dosa.m tava nissaaya, sattunaa appiya.m kata.m; Tameva dosa.m chindassu, kima.t.thaane viha~n~nasi. 'Kha.nikattaa ca dhammaana.m, yehi khandhehi te kata.m; Amanaapa.m niruddhaa te, kassa daaniidha kujjhasi. 'Dukkha.m karoti yo yassa, ta.m vinaa kassa so kare; Sayampi dukkhahetutta, miti ki.m tassa kujjhasii' ti. Sincerely, Scott. #94962 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:14 am Subject: Hearing Dhamma scottduncan2 Dear All, I was reading in the Commentary to the Ittivuttaka, composed by Dhammapaala, (translated by Peter Masefield, PTS,) and related to the repeated phrase, by which each sutta is prefaced - as to why it is that 'was stated' is repeated twice: "This, unquestionably - so has there been heard by me - *was stated* by the Lord, *was stated* by the Arahant (Vutta~nheta.m bhagavataa, vuttamarahataati me suta.m..." I liked (*...* by me): "...Rather, the Lord, being one constantly concentrated and one by nature neither forgetful nor confused, utters a statement, as soon as this has been presented to him by way of his discrimination concerning inspiration backed up by his omniscience, conforming with the dispositions of those capable of being guided in their own natural language, making manifest, with a voice enticing as the call of the Indian cuckoo and as though he were raining the Deathless-rain upon those hearing them, the four ariyan truths, which constitute the essence of things worthy of being heard, which are unsurpassable where the matter of hearing is concerned, *and which constitute an elixir for the ear-base by way of clear and purified sounds*, not shared with others, that simultaneously arise along with the ingredients of merit collected over time without limit; there is therein no slip-up, not even one the size of a mere hairtip, so whence the opportunity for that badly stated? (pp. 47-48)" Scott: 'Clear and purified sounds' - not words - 'an elixir for the ear-base.' Cool. Sincerely, Scott. #94963 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma. dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Dave, > thank you for your interesting remarks. Maybe I can add something. A > chapter a week is quite a lot and even in Ch 1, there is a lot to be > explained and discussed, it is very compact. Yes, A chapter a week is my rough pace, though it's taken a bit longer. I forgot to mention that I have a blog going on it on e- sangha, which I think should be accessable to guests. http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php? automodule=blog&blogid=1175& I call it "Abhidhamma for Dummies" becuase I am not too bright. :) I take once simple concept every few days or so and I quote your book, write about it a bit, and grab bits from Suttas and sometimes other sources that I can find. We have some other E-sangha members going through the chapters and discussing it. This method is working great for me, because having others read it is good motivation. Otherwise I am not a very meticulous or detail oriented person. (I never worked this hard on anything in school!) > N: Yes, beause of our upbringing, the science we learnt, we are > inclined to emphasize the brain. I brought this up decads ago when > visiting Kh Sujin in her house in Bangkok where I used to come two or > three times a week with all my questions. She said, blood, brain, > they are all conditions for nama. > In other words, nobody denies the brain, but when we are more > precise, they are actually rupas, physical phenomena. Take the brain > out and you see colour, or touch it, there is hardness. These rupas > do not experience anything, but feeling and the other khandhas do. Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but saying that blood, brain, etc., are conditions for nama sounds almost biased towards rupa. But as you state next, they condition each other. > ------- > > > > D: It's hard to describe how subtle this view was that I was carrying, > > but I have to say I spent quite a bit of time considering it's > > implications. I am still pretty conditioned towards physicalism, > > but I hold dhammic views. (The Apannaka sutta was a breakthrough > > for me in that regard - the Buddha's version of Pascal's Wager). > ------ > N: It helps to see that nama conditions rupa and rupa conditions > nama. Remember Ch 1, the men and the boat: > > 'Depending each upon the other > The boat and men go on the sea. > And so do mind and matter both > Depend the one upon the other.' > > When seeing arises, it is dependent on colour, its object, which is > rupa, and on eyesense which is rupa. When seeing, hearing, smelling, > tasting, experiencing tangible object, we can consider this in our life. I guess this is why in dependent origination they are always listed together - namarupa. This is something that I puzzled over when I first looked at Abhidhamma, since I'd never seen them separated before. I think there is a simile somewhere of two stacks of hay supporting each other, but I'm not able to find it. If you pull down one stack of hay the other falls down as well. > N: Even on a theoretical level it helps to know that there can be > only one citta at a time experiencing one object. We can also > understand how treacherous lobha is: when there is pleasant feeling > about some good deed we do, immediately there is lobha that clings to > 'my good deed' or 'I am a good person.' Awhile ago somebody asked about compassion, and your book on Cetasikas was very helpful. (I think I will study that next). The question was about whether karuna was an unpleasant feeling, since it is generally a response to suffering. Before looking at Abhidhamma I would not have been able to answer this. But now I understand that karuna is always kusala, though for most of us it will probably arise close together with asukala cittas of aversion. Quoting yourself "Compassion and aversion can arise closely one after the other and it is difficult to know their different characteristics. Through right understanding one can come to know their difference. " For a Buddha or arahant though this would not be the case since they only give rise to wholesome cittas. > N: This is about the characteristic of lobha. This arises all the > time in daily life. We take it for my lobha, but when we understand > more about its conditions, it will help us, at least in theory, to > understand that it is non-self. It arises before we realize it, but > gradually it can be understood as it is. It is not the name lobha > that is important, but when it appears its characteristic can be > understood. This is the purpose of the Abhidhamma. Not just > remembering terms, but understanding that these represent realities > of daily life. Such understanding leads to detachment from the idea > of self. This is also the teaching of the suttas, but together with > the Abhidhamma we shall understand more what our life is, what it is > that we take for a person, a being. My only question about Chapter 4 so far is that it talks about prompted and unprompted cittas. Understanding a prompted citta is easy enough - I think, but I am having a little harder time understanding what the conditions are for an unprompted citta. Could you give an example? This is great having direct access to your knowledge Nina! Thank you so much. -Dave K #94964 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:04 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Karunadasa continues: Another important fact that should not be overlooked here is that according to the later exegesis pannatti includes not only names (nama) but also ideas corresponding to them (attha).113 Since the assignment of a designation creates an idea corresponding to it, we may interpret the above definition to include both. It is true, of course, that the dhammas do not exist in dependence on the operation of the mind, on their being designated by a term and conceptualized by mind. Nevertheless the assignment of names to the dhammas involves a process of conceptualization. Hence pannatti includes not only the names of things, whether they are real or nominal, but also all the concepts corresponding to them. {113. See below, pp. 33-34.} connie #94965 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:04 am Subject: AS time nichiconn Dear Friends, Nyananaponika continues: These potential defilements may be compared to dangerous microbes infesting the body, which, though in a latent state, may become active at any moment when conditions are favorable. It is this soil of the aggregates impregnated with potential defilements that is meant by the Abhidhamma categories of "things favorable to defilements, to canker, etc." (sa'nkilesikaa dhammaa and saasavaa dhammaa) and kindred terms in the triads and dyads of the Dhammasa'nga.nii. The fourth category of uppanna refers to things that may possibly arise in the future. It differs from those future things of the third catefory "for which an opportunity is made" insofar as these latter things are related to an actual kamma of the past, while the fourth category relates only to the proclivity of things. The things of the third category are therefore to a much higher degree determined by those in the fourth, because, besides cases that are absolutely determined (see note 69), actually any other kind of kamma-result must eventually arise if not effectively counteracted. They are, therefore, nearer the borderline of factual reality than the mere proclivities of the fourth category. This relation to factual reality was probably the principle underlying the sequence of enumeration of the four categories. Beginning with factual reality, that is, "things presently arisen" (vattamaan'uppanna), the other three divisions progressively decrease in actuality. connie #94966 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:50 am Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. scottduncan2 Dear Rob E., Sorry for the delay, Rob. Regarding: R: "Is there a basis in the suttas for such ideas as dhammas as ultimate realities...If there is, can you give an example of indication of how this is shown to be correct? Or is it a later idea of the commentators?" Scott: One finds much mention of 'naama' (citta, cetasika), 'ruupa,' 'aayatana,' 'dhaatu,' 'khandha' all through the Suttas. The Abhidhamma Pi.taka shows how these are paramattha dhammas, and the Commentaries support and elaborate on this. I'm sorry, but I accept these sources; I accept, therefore, that the above is the case; and I don't notice doubt about it arising. I don't really wish to debate the ideas, though. Sincerely, Scott. #94967 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing Dhamma nilovg Dear Scott, Op 16-jan-2009, om 14:14 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > I was reading in the Commentary to the Ittivuttaka, composed by > Dhammapaala, (translated by Peter Masefield, PTS,) ------ N: I enjoyed what you highlighted. I was rather lost by the many pages where one expression was explained, but if one takes a little at a time it is very good. I liked the passage about 'monks'. When I have time I type it, but first my work on Sangiitisutta. Nina. #94968 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] AS time nilovg Dear Connie, this helps us to understand latent tendencies. I often refer to these microbes that can become active when there is an opportunity. Nina. Op 16-jan-2009, om 15:04 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > These potential defilements may be compared to dangerous microbes > infesting the body, which, though in a latent state, may become > active at any moment when conditions are favorable. It is this soil > of the aggregates impregnated with potential defilements that is > meant by the Abhidhamma categories of "things favorable to > defilements, to canker, etc." (sa'nkilesikaa dhammaa and saasavaa > dhammaa) and kindred terms in the triads and dyads of the > Dhammasa'nga.nii. #94969 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/1/16 Nina van Gorkom : > Hi James, > Op 16-jan-2009, om 5:48 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > ------- > N: Metta is extended to all liuving creatures, it is said. > As to seeking birth, (Pali: sambhavesino), the Co explains (In the > Illustrator of Ultime Meaning): the four kinds of womb generation(see e.g. M i.73), creatures that > are eggborn or uterus-born are called those that yet seek to be as > long as they have not broken the egg-membrane or the caul-membrane > [respectively];... > I type only one example, there are more aspects > to it. Next thing you know, we'll have the breaking of the egg-membrane or the caul-membrane as the condition for sickness, old age and death. Cheers Herman #94970 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:11 pm Subject: Re: Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 kenhowardau Hi Rob M, -------------- <. . .> RM: > I did describe death exactly as you have said but also mentioned that this was the Theravdin view as it evolved about fifteen centuries after the Buddha's parinibbana. --------------- I hope you didn't pretend to speak on behalf of the Theravadins when you said that. :-) You will find there are many of us who strongly believe that was the way the Dhamma was always meant to be understood. (I am talking about one citta with one object being followed by the next citta with its object.) I, for one, can't see how the Dhamma could have been about anything else. ----------------------------- RM: > This model is not from the Suttas or from the orginal Abhidhamma texts. ----------------------------- But there are people, including many at DSG, who see that model (as you call it) very clearly in the suttas and Abhidhamma-pitaka. ----------------------------------- RM: > It is not shared by the other speakers representing the Nikaya- Agama, Mahayana or Tibetan traditions. It would have been a pretty short conference if I had insisted that the non-Theravadins reject their models and accept the Theravadin model before talking more about dying! :-) ------------------------------ At the risk of going off-topic I would be interested to know briefly what those other traditions teach. Do they say there is no such thing as consciousness: or maybe that consciousness has several objects (the seen the heard the touched . . ) at the same time? (Surely they wouldn't say there was a self that continued on from any one moment to the next! (?)) What do they teach that is so different? Ken H #94971 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hearing Dhamma scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: I enjoyed what you highlighted. I was rather lost by the many pages where one expression was explained, but if one takes a little at a time it is very good. I liked the passage about 'monks'. When I have time I type it, but first my work on Sangiitisutta. Scott: Thank you, Nina. Yes, that was quite the section, wasn't it? So much detail on what seems like such a small concern - the repetition of words. I'll look forward to re-considering the passage on 'monks.' Thanks again for you contributions to the Sangiitisutta.m corner. Your efforts are much appreciated. Sincerely, Scott. #94972 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Rob) - In a message dated 1/16/2009 4:11:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Rob M, -------------- <. . .> RM: > I did describe death exactly as you have said but also mentioned that this was the Theravdin view as it evolved about fifteen centuries after the Buddha's parinibbana. --------------- I hope you didn't pretend to speak on behalf of the Theravadins when you said that. :-) You will find there are many of us who strongly believe that was the way the Dhamma was always meant to be understood. (I am talking about one citta with one object being followed by the next citta with its object.) I, for one, can't see how the Dhamma could have been about anything else. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that the talk of cittas (plural) occurs in the suttas, but it has been my impression that the suttas do suggest only one object of consciousness at a time, and of course the schemes of 5 khandhas and of 18 ayatanas are equivalent to the Abhidhammic breakdown into rupas, cittas, and cetasikas, though the terminology of "ultimate realities" seems to be missing in the suttas. The emphasis there seems to be more on the tilakkhana as regards khandhic elements as opposed to substantial existence. ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------- RM: > This model is not from the Suttas or from the orginal Abhidhamma texts. ----------------------------- But there are people, including many at DSG, who see that model (as you call it) very clearly in the suttas and Abhidhamma-pitaka. ----------------------------------- RM: > It is not shared by the other speakers representing the Nikaya- Agama, Mahayana or Tibetan traditions. It would have been a pretty short conference if I had insisted that the non-Theravadins reject their models and accept the Theravadin model before talking more about dying! :-) ------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, Rob, I think that various Mahayana schools did adopt their ksanavada approach from the khanavada approach of the early school of Sarvastivadins. And the Yogacara school of Mahayana is an outgrowth of Sarvastivadin Abhidharma. ------------------------------------------------ At the risk of going off-topic I would be interested to know briefly what those other traditions teach. Do they say there is no such thing as consciousness: or maybe that consciousness has several objects (the seen the heard the touched . . ) at the same time? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I've not seen any Mahayana school express either of these. ---------------------------------------------- (Surely they wouldn't say there was a self that continued on from any one moment to the next! (?)) ----------------------------------------------- Howard: With few exceptions (Mahayana is a big umbrella), the no-self teaching is very central and very strong throughout Mahayana. ----------------------------------------------- What do they teach that is so different? Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94973 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:55 pm Subject: Re: Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 kenhowardau Hi Herman, I felt a bit impolite not replying to this message, but you didn't really expect a reply, did you? ---------------- H: > You might agree with me that the characteristic of consciousness is that it is knowing [something]. If there is no knowing [something], there is no consciousness. ---------------- You began by using the term "knowing" in a way that I would reluctantly accept. That is, as a synonym for the correct term, "experiencing". ------------------------ H: > I wonder why people are adamant that there is knowing of something that is unknown? ------------------------ Then you used "knowing" in the sense of "direct right understanding." So you have played a conjurer's trick to create the illusion of a paradox where none really existed. Ken H #94974 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:31 pm Subject: Re: Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Rob M), Thanks for your help, Howard. I am still hoping Rob will explain why some of his audience would not have accepted the Theravadin explanation. Ken H > <. . .> > RM: > I did describe death exactly as you have said but also > mentioned that this was the Theravdin view as it evolved about > fifteen centuries after the Buddha's parinibbana. #94975 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings epsteinrob Hey Dave! Nice to see you around! I've been wondering about you down in the usenet circus for quite a while. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa" wrote: > Though I knew better in theory, I was at some level conflating the > non-form aggregates (feelings, perceptions, volitional formations, > consiousness) with physical processes in the brain - which would in > fact make them rupa. I would be interested to see what the experts here say about this. It would seem to me that if a physical process is not experienced directly, it would be a concept rather than a rupa, but I may be quite confused myself. Best, Robert Ep. ============================ #94976 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:21 pm Subject: re: AS time nichiconn Dear Nina, All, N: I often refer to these microbes that can become active when there is an opportunity. c: I guess 'microbe' is what I call 'virus' - where accumulation is reflected in how any given type mutates over time, but is still that same kind. It seems just another indication of the importance of the physical senses to us that we have to resort to using material terms to describe the immaterial; and really, like with the salt example the other day, we don't even think of the rupas very accurately, do we. They're really no more 'substantial' than thoughts. peace, connie #94977 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:58 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. glenjohnann Dear Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >> 1.'"One speaks of 'the world,' Lord. In how far is there are world or > the designation 'world'?" "When there is the eye and visible forms, > visual consciousness and things cognizable by visual consciousness; > when there is the ear and sounds...; nose and smells...; tongue and > flavours...; body and tangibles...; mind and ideas, mind- > consciousness and things cognizable by mind-consciousness--then there > is a world and the designation 'world'."'[SN 35:68] A. the above sutta speaks of: ... the eye and visible forms, visual consciousness and things cognizable by visual consciousness; ..." I am wondering why 4 things are listed. Things cognizable by visual consciousness - that would seem to be visible object. Visual consciousness - seeing. What about eye and visible forms - I would think that the eye would designate the eye base. What then do we take visible forms to be - visual object as well? > 2. '"'All' will I show you, O monks. And what is 'all'? The eye and > visible forms, ear and sounds, nose and smells, tongue and flavors, > mind and ideas--this, O monks, is what is called 'all'."' [SN35:22]"" A. Again here, I would have expected to see the various sense consciousness as well, as in the eye, visible forms and seeing etc. Any explanation for why only 2 for each sense? Ann #94978 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:15 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Alberto! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > Presuming to uncover the same dhammas in the same way the Buddha did, > i.e. just sitting and "meditating" is, imo, bound to fail why is that? It worked for him and he provided instructions on how to replicate his pathway, did he not? and also a > bit foolish, since His Dhamma is readily available and can provide the > right theory on which understanding of the actual dhammas can develop. > > Alberto > When you say "...his Dhamma is readily available and can provide the right theory on which understanding...can develop" you are in fact prescribing a way in which to proceed, just as much as anyone who advises sitting and meditating. Why do you think that such a prescription is less ego-driven, or more effective than the methods that the Buddha actually described? Why do you think it is "wrong effort" to meditate but "right effort" to study "his Dhamma?" Is this a modern ideology or something the Buddha actually taught? When you say that His Dhamma can provide the "right theory," how do you know what that theory is, and how do you know that you are interpreting it correctly, rather than incorrectly? And how is this any different from meditating correctly or incorrectly? And if conditions lead one to meditate without any thought of self or gain, then why would it not be correct for them to go ahead and meditate as conditions dictate, just as conditions have dictated that you read and study your Dhamma, and interpret it according to the conditions that allow your cittas and cetasikas to interpret it either correctly or incorrectly. Do you have any way of knowing whether your study of Dhamma is kusala or akusala? Do you have any way of knowing whether your sense that you know exactly what to do and exactly what the correct method is, is correct or incorrect? How would you possibly know, since there is no "you" to know? So why is one path better, according to you, than another, if there is nothing at all but arising conditions that dictate the outcome in any case? "His Dhamma" which you are obviously fond of, describes meditation in many cases, in fine detail, and shows how such meditation leads to enlightenment under the right conditions. Why do you reject this form in which conditions can lead to enlightenment? Can you explain or justify this prejudice? Best, Robert Ep. - - - - - - - - - - #94979 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:16 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Alberto! Just a slight highlight on your last post to emphasize one point: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > Presuming to uncover the same dhammas in the same way the Buddha did, > i.e. just sitting and "meditating" is, imo, bound to fail... Why do you think this? Based on what? And how do you know this? You did say "imo," but is that all it is, an opinion? Based on what? Best, Robert E. ================================= #94980 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:55 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. epsteinrob Hi Scott. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Rob E., > > Sorry for the delay, Rob. No problem; I have quite a hard time keeping up myself. We'll see how long I last. > Scott: One finds much mention of 'naama' (citta, > cetasika), 'ruupa,' 'aayatana,' 'dhaatu,' 'khandha' all through the > Suttas. The Abhidhamma Pi.taka shows how these are paramattha > dhammas, and the Commentaries support and elaborate on this. I'm > sorry, but I accept these sources; I accept, therefore, that the above > is the case; and I don't notice doubt about it arising. > > I don't really wish to debate the ideas, though. That is fine, Scott, that answer gives me an indication of the connection. I suppose at some point I may make the connection myself. For now, that is a good explanation. However, if you happen to know of a place in the Abhidhamma itself where it says that the namas and rupas are "paramatha dhammas" I would love to read such a segment. I find it hard to find such things in English, so a quote would be helpful if you know of one. Best, Robert ============================ #94981 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Understanding Death and Beyond - Section 6 epsteinrob Hi Ken, and Howard! Ken wrote: > At the risk of going off-topic I would be interested to know briefly > what those other traditions teach. Do they say there is no such thing > as consciousness: or maybe that consciousness has several objects > (the seen the heard the touched . . ) at the same time? One of the most interesting Mahayana treatises on the nature of perception, mind and perceptible object is the Surangama Sutra. It is an important work in Chan [Chinese zen] Buddhism. I would recommend taking a look at it since it is in some ways a "match" for the Abhidhamma from another perspective, as it examines acts of perception and conception in at least great philosophical detail. You can find a pdf available for download at this location: www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf If you go to page 101 you will see some detailed discussion of the act of perception and how it takes place, etc. Would be interested to know what you think of this material. Other segments get into some wackier stuff, but the discussions of perception and the nature of mind are of interest. Best, Robert E. ====================== #94982 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:17 pm Subject: Hearing Dhamma nichiconn Dear Scott, All, Iti 98 (III v ix) begins, basically: Monks, there are these two gifts ... sharings together ... acts of kindness ... the carnal and the spiritual. Of these two ... the spiritual is pre-eminent. And Woodward's interpretation of the 2nd verse about this 'best gift, unsurpassed': They who both hear it and who speak therof, With heart of faith in the Wellfarer's teaching, In them their **highest profit** is made pure Who set themselves to the Wellfarer's teaching. Ye ceva bhaasanti su.nanti cubhaya.m, pasannacittaa sugatassa saasane; Tesa.m so **attho paramo** visujjhati, ye appamattaa sugatassa saasane - ti. parama (PW): superior; best; excellent. attha (PW): welfare; gain; wealth; need; want; use; meaning; destruction. it also has senses of cause/result and 'home', but as 'meaning', I think it's usually spelled 'a.t.tha', as in: paraama.t.tha: misapprehended, adhered to, wrongly grasped the way phassa contacts or grasps the object to pull it into the mind to be taken up; consumed & consuming... nutriment. that's the conventional way, as opposed to paramattha (dhamma). reckon we'll have to wait to read the commentary - meanwhile, let's have a little more elixer, man. peace, connie #94983 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:35 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. sprlrt Hi Robert E., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" > > > Presuming to uncover the same dhammas in the same way the Buddha did, > > i.e. just sitting and "meditating" is, imo, bound to fail... > > Why do you think this? Based on what? And how do you know this? You > did say "imo," but is that all it is, an opinion? Based on what? > Only Buddhas in their last round of existance can attain enlightenment wihout the support of the sasana (the right Dhamma). I thought you knew that... Alberto #94984 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:09 am Subject: Survey, Ch 35, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Q. : After one has paid respect to the Buddha by chanting texts one may wish to sit and concentrate on a meditation subject. How can one do that with wise attention, so that there is no attachment nor aversion with regard to the meditation subject? S. : When there is right mindfulness, sammå-sati, of the eightfold Path there truly is wise attention. It is not necessary to sit and concentrate on a meditation subject. When someone believes that he should sit and concentrate with the purpose of having sati, he has the wrong understanding that there is a self who could make sati arise at a fixed time. However, sammå-sati does not have to wait until one has paid respect by chanting texts. Who is paying respect to the Buddha? If someone does not know that the answer is, nåma and rúpa, he takes the realities at that moment for self. He has an idea of, “I am paying respect”, he clings to an idea of self who chants texts. Sammå-sati can arise and be aware of any reality which appears when we are paying respect or chanting texts, or at other moments, no matter which posture we assume. Bhikkhu: I have a question on satipatthåna. I have read that among the twentyeight rúpas, there are rúpas which cannot be seen, rúpas which cannot impinge, subtle rúpas, rúpas which are far, and so on. Could you explain about this? S. : There is only one rúpa among the twentyeight rúpas which can be seen, and that is visible object which appears through the eyesense. Visible object can be seen and it is among the rúpas which impinge or contact (sappatigha rúpas). There are other impinging rúpas: the sense objects, apart from visible object, which are sound, odour, flavour and tangible object, consisting of solidity (appearing as hardness or softness), temperature (appearing as heat or cold) and motion (appearing as motion or pressure). Furthermore, there are the senses which can be contacted or impinged on, namely, eyesense, earsense, smellingsense, tastingsense and bodysense. These eleven rúpas can impinge or can be impinged on, but they cannot be seen, whereas visible object can impinge and can be seen. The twelve impinging rúpas are coarse rúpas. They are also called rúpas which are “near”, because they can be investigated and known. The sixteen other rúpas among the twentyeight rúpas are the subtle rúpas. They cannot be seen nor are they impinging. Subtle rúpas are “far”, they cannot easily be discerned. ********** Nina. #94985 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:41 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (42-43) and commentary, part 1. nilovg Dear friends, sutta (42): Walshe DN 33.1.10(42) 'Three kinds of wisdom: of the learner, of the non- learner, of the one who is neither (as 36). Tisso pa~n~naa - sekkhaa pa~n~naa, asekkhaa pa~n~naa, nevasekkhaanaasekkhaa pa~n~naa. In order to understand this passage we have to return to no 36: < Three kinds of persons, to wit, the learner, the adept, he who is neither.> The Co to no 36 speaks of learners (sekho) as sevenfold, sattavidho, referring to seven persons, and here there is a reference to the ‘four pairs of men’ (purisa puggala) who are ariyans. There are eight lokuttara cittas, four of which are magga-cittas and four fruition, phalacittas. The subco explains that sevenfold (of learners) refers to eight magga-cittas and the three lower phalacittas, thus, the fruition of arahatship is taken separately here. The subco explains that the magga-citta of the arahat still performs the function of clear comprehension, pari~n~na, and at the arising of fruition- consciousness, he has reached the highest fruit: the happiness of fruition which is the most peaceful and excellent, and endowed with these he is called non-learner. ---------- We read in the Dhsg (pali 1016), no. 1023 in the transl. by U Kyaw Khine: The Co states that there are seven kinds of pa~n~naa that are the pa~n~naa of the learner, and that the pa~n~naa of the arahat is of the non-learner. The remaining kinds of pa~n~naa are of those who are neither a trainer or a non-trainer, thus of the worldling. --------- N: We are reminde here that there is no person who attains enlightenment and becomes a learner and eventually a non-learner. There are lokuttara cittas accompanied by pa~n~naa that are called learner or non-learner. The pa~n~naa of the worldling can develop stage by stage so that lokuttara pa~n~naa can arise. There is no person who is the owner of pa~n~naa. ---------- Pali Co: Sekkhaa pa~n~naati satta ariyapa~n~naa. Arahato pa~n~naa asekkhaa. Avasesaa pa~n~naa nevasekkhaanaasekkhaa. ------- Nina. #94986 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Rob (and Scott) - In a message dated 1/16/2009 11:55:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, epsteinrob@... writes: However, if you happen to know of a place in the Abhidhamma itself where it says that the namas and rupas are "paramatha dhammas" I would love to read such a segment. I find it hard to find such things in English, so a quote would be helpful if you know of one. ================================= Rob, this is an interesting question. It seems that some commentaries, not part of the Tipitaka of course, do refer to namas and rupas as 'paramattha dhammas' but the Sutta Pitaka does not, and it is a further question that you raise as to whether the Abhidhamma uses that terminology. I would add three comments: 1) The commentarial term 'paramattha dhamma' means "ultimate phenomenon," and there is nothing in the term 'paramattha dhamma' that suggests a translation of "ultimate REALITY," 2) I take 'paramattha' in the context of 'paramattha dhamma' to mean "ultimate" only in the sense of not being (considered as) a collective phenomenon further reducible to components, though the commentaries DO countenance three stages to rupas, namely arising, standing while altering, and ceasing, and 3) If I am correct in the view I express in 1) and 2), even if the term 'paramattha dhamma' does occur in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, there is no reason to assume that this amounts to Abhidhamma asserting self-existence of phenomena. With metta, Howard Emptiness (From the Uraga Sutta) __________________________ Reality (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) #94987 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma. egberdina Hi Dave, 2009/1/17 dkotschessa : > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: >> A warm welcome to dsg. > > Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but saying that blood, brain, > etc., are conditions for nama sounds almost biased towards rupa. > But as you state next, they condition each other. > > This is great having direct access to your knowledge Nina! Thank > you so much. > If you are neither nama nor rupa, why is it important to know which is which? Cheers Herman #94988 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > Hey Dave! > Nice to see you around! I've been wondering about you down in the > usenet circus for quite a while. Yeah, I haven't seen anything of value happening there for awhile. Same old dramas without the dharma. :) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dkotschessa" > wrote: > I would be interested to see what the experts here say about this. It > would seem to me that if a physical process is not experienced > directly, it would be a concept rather than a rupa, but I may be quite > confused myself. Rupa doesn't experience anything for itself, so our experiences of feelings, perceptions, etc. are nama experienced by citta (which is also nama) but conditioning and conditioned by form (rupa). "If I get it aright." As our Tang would say. -DaveK #94989 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Dave, Op 16-jan-2009, om 14:32 heeft dkotschessa het volgende geschreven: > Yes, A chapter a week is my rough pace, though it's taken a bit > longer. I forgot to mention that I have a blog going on it on e- > sangha, which I think should be accessable to guests. > > http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php? > automodule=blog&blogid=1175& -------- N: I am not allowed access if not a member, and for me it is too heavy to enlist there as well. -------- > > D: I call it "Abhidhamma for Dummies" becuase I am not too bright. :) > I take once simple concept every few days or so and I quote your > book, write about it a bit, and grab bits from Suttas and sometimes > other sources that I can find. We have some other E-sangha members > going through the chapters and discussing it. -------- N: How I love Abh for Dummies, because are we not all dummies when still ordinary people? I am interested in anything you will report about this, also what is going on in E-Sangha. If I can help with questions from them, you are always free to copy what I write here. ------- > > > N: She said, blood, brain, they are all conditions for nama. > > In other words, nobody denies the brain, but when we are more > > precise, they are actually rupas, physical phenomena. Take the > brain > > out and you see colour, or touch it, there is hardness. These > rupas > > do not experience anything, but feeling and the other khandhas do. > > D: Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but saying that blood, brain, > etc., are conditions for nama sounds almost biased towards rupa. > But as you state next, they condition each other. ------ N: What we call brain are just rupas arising and falling away. The same for blood, liver, etc. By science so much emphasis is placed on the brain, for example, the right side or the left side of the brain does this or that. But the study of the Abhidhamma points to detachment from all this, from rupas and namas who have no owner. They arise and fall away immediately. It is an approach different from science. > > ------- > > N: It helps to see that nama conditions rupa and rupa conditions > > nama. Remember Ch 1, the men and the boat.. -------- > > D: I guess this is why in dependent origination they are always listed > together - namarupa. This is something that I puzzled over when I > first looked at Abhidhamma, since I'd never seen them separated > before. I think there is a simile somewhere of two stacks of hay > supporting each other, but I'm not able to find it. If you pull > down one stack of hay the other falls down as well. --------- N: With Larry we studied Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, the Dependent Origination (to be found in files dsg) and here is explained why sometimes nama/rupa are taken together and at other times separately. There are so many different aspects, too much detail for now. ---------- > > D: Before looking at > Abhidhamma I would not have been able to answer this. But now I > understand that karuna is always kusala, though for most of us it > will probably arise close together with asukala cittas of aversion. > Quoting yourself "Compassion and aversion can arise closely one > after the other and it is difficult to know their different > characteristics. Through right understanding one can come to know > their difference. " > For a Buddha or arahant though this would not be the case since they > only give rise to wholesome cittas. ------- N: Sobhana kiriyacittas, kiriyacittas accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. Your example of compassion: it is valuable to know through the Abhidhamma that kusala and aversion can alternate. Otherwise we take for kusala what is akusala. We shall have less delusion about the different cittas, at least on the intellectual level. But before the first stage of insight is reached, when nama is known as nama and rupa as rupa, there cannot be a precise understanding of kusala and akusala and when they arise. ----------- > > D: My only question about Chapter 4 so far is that it talks about > prompted and unprompted cittas. Understanding a prompted citta is > easy enough - I think, but I am having a little harder time > understanding what the conditions are for an unprompted citta. > Could you give an example? -------- N: We studied with Larry Visuddhimagga Ch XIV. First I quote: about citta rooted in lobha, and there are eight kinds. The second one is prompted. -------- So, it is a matter of the citta with lobha having strength, arising spontaneaouly, unprompted, or being weak, not keen, prompted. I may see food and immediately take a liking to it or I may not be so keen but still take it. This could be an example of unprompted and prompted. However, cittas are so fast and we cannot catch the different types. We should not try to find out. The Abhidhamma just explains that there are different types with different intensities. ***** Nina. #94990 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:49 am Subject: Visuddhimagga IX Mettaabhaavanaakathaa Corner scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing: The Path of Purification. "23. But if resentment does not subside when he admonishes himself thus, then he should review the fact that he himself and the other are owners of their deeds (kamma). "Herein, he should first review this in himself thus: 'Now, what is the point of your getting angry with him? Will not this kamma of yours that has anger as its source lead to your own harm? For you are the owner of your deeds, heir of your deeds, having deeds as your parent, deeds as your kin, deeds as your refuge; you will become the heir of whatever deeds you do (see A.iii,186). And this is not the kind of deed to bring you to enlightenment, to undeclared enlightenment or the the disciples grade, or to any such position as the status of Brahmaa or Sakka, or the throne of a Wheel-turning Monarch or a regional king, etc.; but rather this is the kind of deed to lead to your fall from the Dispensation, suffering in the hells, and so on. By doing this you are like a man who wants to hit another and picks up a burning ember or excrement in his hand and so first burns himself or himself stink." Path of Purity. "If in spite of his self-admonition his hatred does not subside, he should ponder the fact of another man's deeds as well as his own. And he should ponder thus concerning himself: 'Man, what wilt thou do getting angry with another man? Will not this angry deed which is the origin of hate lead to thy harm? Thou hast, verily, thine own deeds, thou art the heir of (thy) deeds, originated by deeds, akin to (thy) deeds; thy deeds are thy fountain-head. Thou wilt be the heir of whatever deeds thou dost. And these deeds of thine are not capable of bringing about Buddha-knowledge, Pacceka-knowledge, discipleship, or any of the attainments such as those of the Brahmaa, the Sakka, the universal monarch, or a local king; but it will lead the away from the religion to the state of one who eats scraps and other such (fate), or to suffer special kinds of misery in the hells. Thou who dost such deeds are like a man who seizes with both hands glowing live coals or dung in order to strike another man therewith, but who first burns and befouls himself.'" Sace panassa eva.m attaana.m ovadatopi pa.tigha.m neva vuupasammati, athaanena attano ca parassa ca kammassakataa paccavekkhitabbaa. Tattha attano taava eva.m paccavekkhitabbaa 'ambho tva.m tassa kuddho ki.m karissasi? Nanu taveva ceta.m dosanidaana.m kamma.m anatthaaya sa.mvattissati? Kammassako hi tva.m kammadaayaado kammayoni kammabandhu kammapa.tisara.no, ya.m kamma.m karissasi, tassa daayaado bhavissasi, ida~nca te kamma.m neva sammaasambodhi.m , na paccekabodhi.m, na saavakabhuumi.m, na brahmattasakkattacakkavattipadesaraajaadisampattiina.m a~n~natara.m sampatti.m saadhetu.m samattha.m, atha kho saasanato caavetvaa vighaasaadaadibhaavassa ceva nerayikaadidukkhavisesaana~nca te sa.mvattanikamida.m kamma.m. So tva.m ida.m karonto ubhohi hatthehi viitaccite vaa a"ngaare, guutha.m vaa gahetvaa para.m paharitukaamo puriso viya attaanameva pa.thama.m dahasi ceva duggandha~nca karosii' ti. Sincerely, Scott. #94991 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:19 am Subject: cornerstone nichiconn Dear Friends, Karunadasa continues: This theory of pannatti, presented as ancillary to the doctrine of dhammas, is not a complete innovation on the part of the Abhidhamma. Such a theory is clearly implied in the early Buddhist analysis of empirical existence into the aggregates, sense bases, and elements, and the only really new feature in the pannatti theory is its systematic formulation. Accordingly the term "person" becomes a common designation (sammuti) given to a congeries of dependently originated psycho-physical factors: "Just as there arises the name 'chariot' when there is a set of appropriate constituents, even so there comes to be this convention 'living being' when the five aggregates are present." {Si135} There is, however, this important difference to be noted: the early Buddhist idea of sammuti is not based on a formulated doctrine of real existents. Although what is analysed is called sammuti, that into which it is analysed is not called paramattha. Such a development is found only in the Abhidhamma, as we have already seen. We should note that in the Abhidhamma, a clear distinction is drawn between sammuti and pannatti. Pannatti, as we have seen, refers to terms (nama) expressive of things both real (paramattha) and convention-based (sammuti) and the ideas corresponding to them (attha). In contrast, sammuti is used in a restricted sense to mean only what is convention-based. It is this meaning that finds expression in the compound sammuti-sacca (conventional truth). That for the Abhidhamma sammuti is not the same as pannatti is also seen by the fact that in the Dhammasangani definition of pannatti quoted above*, the term sammuti does not occur among its synonyms. ...to be continued, connie *ps: in #94929 #94992 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:19 am Subject: AS time nichiconn Dear Friends, Nyanaponika continues: It is important to note that according to the Visuddhimagga (p.689) only the things of the fourth category (bhuumiladdh'uppanna), that is, defilements, can be overcome, or, more correctly, prevented from actually arising. As a historical sidelight it may be added that the views of the Sarvaastivaadins about the coexistence of the dharmas in all three time periods are reduced to their proper proportions by the commentarial exposition of uppanna. It is shown here which of the past and the future have or may have active and potential significance for the present and may therefore be regarded as actualities, though not realities. But according to the Theravaada this cannot be said of things past and future, and it hardly seems tenable. It is quite possible that this disquisition on the term uppanna was partly intended for use as a refutation of the Sarvaastivaada, which was probably aready in existence at the time the commentaries were being compiled, the original works on which Buddhaghosa based his own commentaries. connie #94993 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:52 am Subject: "Quantum Realities"? upasaka_howard Hi, all - I don't claim to have any real understanding of the content of the article at the website _http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126911.300-our-world-may-be-a-giant-hologram.html?full=true&print=true_, but I think a few of the things mentioned in it might be of interest to the khanavadins (momentarists/particle-ists) among us! ;-) With metta, Howard (Anonymous) #94994 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Itivutthaka, monks. was: Hearing Dhamma nilovg Dear Scott, Op 16-jan-2009, om 22:31 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > I'll look forward to re-considering the passage > on 'monks.' ------- Commentary on the Itivutthaka, transl by Masefield, p. 102, 103, on monks: N: I like the way listening with mindfulness is emphasized here. and how 'unerringly listening and paying attention' are conditions for attaining enlightenment. He 'curbs any haughtiness or debasement'. Conceit is not a good disposition for listening. --------- Nina. #94995 From: "dkotschessa" Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma. dkotschessa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman Hofman wrote: > > If you are neither nama nor rupa, why is it important to know which is which? > It'd say that it's precisely because they are not-self that it's important to understand which is which. -Dave K #94996 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:01 pm Subject: Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. scottduncan2 Dear Rob E., Regarding: R: "...if you happen to know of a place in the Abhidhamma itself where it says that the namas and rupas are 'paramatha dhammas' I would love to read such a segment. I find it hard to find such things in English, so a quote would be helpful if you know of one." Scott: No I don't know of such a place. If you're looking for that exact phrase, I doubt you'll find it. Maybe Nina or Sarah know. Why do you need to see it so written? I think it is very standard Abhidhamma to understand the dhammaa described therein to be considered paramattha. If its a question simply of not accepting the whole consideration, then that's fine. Many do not. If you take Dhammasa"nga.ni, for example, you'll find that it refers to 'states', which are 'dhammaa.' I think you'll find that these are analysed to the 'ultimate' or 'highest' level of analysis and thus stand as not further reducible or analysable. Thus you have citta, cetasika, ruupa, and Nibbaana as paramattha - and no more. I believe that the Commentators elaborate this distinction fully. Sorry I couldn't be of assistance. Sincerely, Scott. #94997 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:10 pm Subject: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the time to kenhowardau Hi Robert E, There is one little hurdle we have to get over and then everything will become clear. I, among others, am talking about a here-and-now practice. It is not like a conventional practice in which a persisting being develops a skill over the course of time. (The whole purpose of the Dhamma is to show that there is no persisting being, so why should we insist on practising it as if there were one?) There are paramattha dhammas now, aren't there? Is there complete direct right understanding (pativedha) of them? Is there partial direct right understanding (patipatti) of them? Is there indirect (theoretical) right understanding (pariyatti) of them? If there is any kind of right understanding of a presently arisen dhamma it will be because the conditions for it are in place, won't it? And what are those conditions that need to have been put in place? Some suttas describe them as "the voice of another and appropriate attention." Others suttas describe them more fully as: association with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma, wise consideration and correct application (of that true Dhamma). So the practice is entirely in the present moment: Right practice occurs (or fails to occur) here and now - by conditions. It does not occur over a period of time to a persisting being, and at the instigation of that persisting being, as do conventionally understood practices. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > Hi Ken. > > > If one discusses whether or not meditation is efficacious, or what are > the activities that lead to wisdom, one is making a choice of method > and philosophy, whether it happens in a string of moments with certain > characteristics, or whether it is done volitionally. Either way, you > cannot, I would argue, say on the one hand, "Reading and understanding > the commentaries and understanding the nature of dhammas through > clarification will lead to nibbana," and on the other hand say "There > is no such thing as choosing x or choosing y, there are just arising > conditions," when you have already clearly chosen x over y. Then > when the subject of meditation comes up, you say "Well there's nothing > really to say about it, because it is just arising conditions." But > you don't say the same thing about understanding dhammas. When that > comes up, you say "that is the way that leads to nibbana." I am > saying that Buddha said that meditation is the way to understand > dhammas and that leads to nibbana, so I am asking whether you can > contradict that or not, and why you have chosen x over y, whether it > is a matter of arising conditions or not. > #94998 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions /and Re: Suttas- the ... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Robert) - In a message dated 1/17/2009 5:10:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Robert E, There is one little hurdle we have to get over and then everything will become clear. I, among others, am talking about a here-and-now practice. It is not like a conventional practice in which a persisting being develops a skill over the course of time. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: There is, of course, no persisting being that does anything. But skills and many other things are developed over a course of time. Accumulations, for example, are so called, because our inclinations don't typically arise full blown in a moment, but develop gradually. --------------------------------------------- (The whole purpose of the Dhamma is to show that there is no persisting being, so why should we insist on practising it as if there were one?) --------------------------------------------- Howard: There was no entity called "the Buddha," but nonetheless he intentionally taught his Dhamma to thousands over a period of 45 years. The inclination to do so was quite impersonal, and the teaching consisted of trillions of trillions of namas and rupas, but it happened, and it happened intentionally, despite the Buddha's initial reluctance to try to teach his Dhamma. Likewise, prior to that, it took aeons before the Bodhisatta became an arahant. ------------------------------------------ There are paramattha dhammas now, aren't there? ------------------------------------------ Howard: There are mental and physical phenomena arising and ceasing right now. Quite so. And that is so whether they are called "ultimate realities" or not. ------------------------------------------ Is there complete direct right understanding (pativedha) of them? Is there partial direct right understanding (patipatti) of them? Is there indirect (theoretical) right understanding (pariyatti) of them? --------------------------------------- Howard: Well, is there? ;-) That depends, I suppose, on whom it is you're talking to? So, do you have answers to your questions? It sounds like you are just mimicking Khun Sujin! ;-) --------------------------------------- If there is any kind of right understanding of a presently arisen dhamma it will be because the conditions for it are in place, won't it? ----------------------------------------- Howard: What isn't due to conditions? (Except, of course, for nibbana.) Nothing that arises does so without condition. Dhamma 101, and Science 101 as well (for that matter). --------------------------------------- And what are those conditions that need to have been put in place? Some suttas describe them as "the voice of another and appropriate attention." Others suttas describe them more fully as: association with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma, wise consideration and correct application (of that true Dhamma). ----------------------------------------- Howard: That's all, Ken? You seem to have restricted your sutta selection considerably. There are suttas that point to guarding the senses and those that give calm and concentration as essential conditions. ------------------------------------------- So the practice is entirely in the present moment: Right practice occurs (or fails to occur) here and now - by conditions. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Everything occurs in the present moment, for whenever something is happening, that is the present. This is rather much of a tautology. -------------------------------------------- It does not occur over a period of time to a persisting being, and at the instigation of that persisting being, as do conventionally understood practices. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Accumulations, skills, habit, and many other phenomena develop over a multitude of moments, each one of which is the present moment at its time of occurrence. The Buddha was engaged in teaching at many moments which together spanned a period of 45 years. At any one of those moments, he was *in the process* of teaching, but no entire act of teaching ever occurred at any one of those instants. Time is required for things to be accomplished. Everyone knows that. The Buddha knew it. He taught *stages* of awakening, for example. Each of these required much time for its attainment. -------------------------------------------- Ken H =========================== With metta, Howard (From the Diamond Sutra) #94999 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Introduction of New Terms and Expressions. TGrand458@... Hi Scott and Rob E. In a message dated 1/17/2009 3:01:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Rob E., Regarding: R: "...if you happen to know of a place in the Abhidhamma itself where it says that the namas and rupas are 'paramatha dhammas' I would love to read such a segment. I find it hard to find such things in English, so a quote would be helpful if you know of one." Scott: No I don't know of such a place. If you're looking for that exact phrase, I doubt you'll find it. Maybe Nina or Sarah know. ............................................. TG: Hummmm. No reference in the Abhidhamma, Vinaya, or Sutta. And yet, a huge emphasis by some in here that THIS is the crucial way phenomena should be seen....as following some commentarial line of thought? Amazing. ............................................... Why do you need to see it so written? .................................................... TG: Oh, I see. When we're write something it has to be as exactly seen in Sutta or it is utterly "un-understandable" (or creative) it would seem. But your side can use 'made-up' terms based on commentary or other because its obvious from the content? Must be nice to have one-sided rules on your own side I guess. ................................................................. I think it is very standard Abhidhamma to understand the dhammaa described therein to be considered paramattha. If its a question simply of not accepting the whole consideration, then that's fine. Many do not. If you take Dhammasa"nga.If you take Dhammasa"nga.ni, for example, to 'states', which are 'dhammaa.' I think you'll find that these are analysed to the 'ultimate' or 'highest' level of analysis and thus stand as not further reducible or analysable. Thus you have citta, cetasika, ruupa, and Nibbaana as paramattha - and no more. I believe that the Commentators elaborate this distinction fully. ............................................................... TG: Glad this practice in extrapolation and elaboration works for you. Sorry that the direct terms from the Suttas, applied to the Five Aggregates, such as -- hollow, coreless, insubstantial, empty, void, like a mirage, like a trick, etc. seem to be just as easily rejected ... for whatever reason? The bottom line I get from all these posts is that Scott and others so inclined just like the commentarial interpretation period ... and full logical support of why(?) is not critical. But such commentarial views upholding "ultimate realities with their own characteristics" will prevail for them no matter what Suttas are railroaded to do so. Anyone's free to do "their own thing" as long as it doesn't harm others. Hopefully the dissemination of an "ultimate realities" outlook will be of little harm. We'll keep the candle burning on the 'other side' though...just in case. :-) TG OUT * Howard's signature blocks: == A change in anything is a change in everything (Anonymous) == Entrances to holiness are everywhere. The possibility of ascent is all the time, even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. There is no place without the Presence (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) == He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none â€" such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. (From the Uraga Sutta) == Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains "going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible (From the Avarana Sutta) == Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream (From the Diamond Sutra) == When knowing what is to be known, he doesn't construe an [object as] known. He doesn't construe an unknown. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-known. He doesn't construe a knower. (The Buddha, speaking of himself in the Kalakarama Sutta) == See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance. (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) == /Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities./ (From the Sacitta Sutta)