#96800 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) jonoabb Hi Robert E > Rob: Why did the Buddha say in anapanasati sutta that one who continued to practice in this way would develop Satipatthana and the factors of enlightenment? Think he was just having a bad day? 末末末末末末末末末末末 ;-)) Hardly. On the Anapanasati Sutta generally, I think we agree the Buddha did not say that one who continued practising anapanasati would thereby come to develop satipatthana and the factors of enlightenment. What he said, to my understanding, was that a person who developed *both* anapanasati (as samatha) and satipatthana could attain enlightenment with jhana as basis, and he proceeded to describe how. But he was talking to monks who were already of high attainment in samatha and vipassana, so what he said in that sutta was not meant to be a handbook for beginners like you and me ;-)) Now getting to the point at issue in the earlier post, which was the difference between the "directly looking" of someone with little developed understanding and the "directly seeing" that *is* the development of understanding. It's true there is reference in the sutta to remaining focussed and the like. But again it needs to be emphasised that his audience were of an extremely high level of development, and "remaining focussed" was a natural and normal state of being (and not something they were being urged to take up ;-)). Jon #96801 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:12 pm Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! scottduncan2 Dear Jonathan, Regarding: J: "Yes you do have the wrong verse 10...yours is in the first chapter twins or pairs...ours in is flowers, chapter 4..." Scott: Got in now, thanks. Sincerely, Scott. #96802 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Jon) - In a message dated 3/25/2009 12:07:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: Why did the Buddha say in anapanasati sutta that one who continued to practice in this way would develop Satipatthana and the factors of enlightenment? Think he was just having a bad day? =============================== LOLOL! A funny, mildly irreverent turn of speech, Robert! ;-) With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96803 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (54-56) sarahprocter... Dear Nina (Scott, Connie & all), --- On Mon, 16/3/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >sutta 54. RD's [3.54] Three proficiencies, to wit, proficiency as to progress, regress, and the means of success. (Tii.ni kosallaani : aayakosalla. m, apaayakosalla. m, upaayakosalla. m.) >Co: as to growth, this is progress in what is proficient, and as to regress, this is the opposite of growth. The cause of these is upaayo: the means. It is proficient to know these means. >In the Vibhanga (ch 16, ｧ 771) it has been explained in detail: progress in what is proficient: By attention to these dhammas the non- arisen akusala dhammas do not arise, and the arisen akusala dhammas cease. The non-arisen kusala dhammas arise and the arisen kusala dhammas by development of them in abundance reach accomplishment. Pa~n~naa which realizes this is right view, samm蘚i.t.thi. This is progress in what is proficient. >N: As to regress in what is proficient, this is the opposite of progress in what is proficient. The Co explains that pa~n~naa which realizes this is sammaa-di.t. thi, right view. It is pa~n~naa that realizes the means or conditions, upaya, [for kusala and akusala]. This is proficiency of method. When a sense of urgency and fear of the danger (of akusala) has arisen there is a remedy [against akusala] and this is beneficial, since pa~n~naa knows the causes of the arising (of kusala and akusala). ------ .... S: This was all interesting. I remember Joop was very interested in upaaya. I think 'skilful means' is stressed in other traditions, but is it understood that it is only by pa~n~naa that "the means or conditions, upaya, [for kusala and akusala]" are realised? As we read in the comy to the Cariyaapi.taka (Bodhi transl): "Like the aspiration, great compassion (mahaakaru.naa) and skilful means (upaayakosalla) are also conditions for the paaramiis. Therein, 'skilful means' is the wisdom which transforms giving (and the other nine virtues) into requisites of enlightenment." Anyway, just reflecting out loud. Thanks to you all for the details and series. Metta, Sarah ====== #96804 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1) sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Tue, 24/3/09, Alex wrote: >> S: Let's use a simple example. Let's say there is wise reflection >on the Teachings of the Buddha now, wise reflection on the Dhamma. >At such a moment there is calm (samatha)accompanie d by pa~n~naa. ... >A:What about samma-samadhi the 8th factor of Noble 8 Path that includes 4 Jhanas? ... S: What about it? Are you asking about the lokuttara magga citta or what? Are you suggesting all 4 jhanas are involved at such moments? Are you suggesting that all lay disciples, such as Visakha who became enlightened at the age of seven and went on to have a very large family, had attained all mundane jhanas? Haven't we been over all this before ad nauseum? You reject what the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries have to say, but I don't think you've put forward a logical alternative as yet. > .... >>A:> If satipatthana is "just being aware" without any "doing of >Buddha's instructions" than animals would be awakened arahants. > ... >> S: If it were just a matter of following apparent instructions, >probably certain animals could be trained to do just that. >A: They do not have the faculty of understanding & reasoning developed enough to realize the paths or the fruits or any other significant feat of understanding. ... S: No, because such understanding involves a lot, lot more than being able to follow instructions! Metta, Sarah ========== #96805 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, Welcome and thanks from me as well for joining us here and making your presence known. I hope your return to the States has worked out as smoothly as anything ever works out (or doesn't) in samsara.....all worldly conditions. [Thank goodness for having heard about dhammas! I was also very glad to meet you in Bangkok and was very impressed by your clear articulation of what you'd been considering so carefully after all your reading and discussions with K.Sujin, the guys and perhaps with other bhikkhus. --- On Tue, 24/3/09, westbankj@... wrote: >This is a place to discuss the right way of development satipatthana for the eradication of ignorance, and the Pali Tipitaka and it's Commentaries. ... S: We'll be glad to hear your further reflections on this central topic anytime. Do join in any threads. I know it's a bit overwhelming when people first join, so you may wish to just follow a few threads (or start your own) initially. Btw, copies of many sets of edited English discussions with K.Sujin can be found at: www.dhammastudygroup.org You need to scroll down past the archive numbers to the audio section. Metta, Sarah ======= #96806 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> sarahprocter... Dear Scott & Alex, --- On Tue, 24/3/09, Scott wrote: >Regarding: "Thanks Scott, as usual, for your helpful assistance." >Scott: You're welcome, Sarah. I thought the commentarial passage was quite clear and I enjoyed considering the sutta in light of it. I certainly don't claim to understand Nibbaana but I found the logic here quite useful: >"...Just as there is made known, on account of the fact that it is capable of being fully understood, an escape from sense-desires and forms that have that which surpasses them, which [escape] consisting of that which is their opposite, has as its own nature that which is the antithesis thereof, so does there have to be an escape from all conditioned states having that as their own nature, [which escape], consisting of that which is their opposite, has as its own nature that which is the antithesis thereof. And that escape is the unconditioned element..." >Scott: Were Nibbaana not capable of being fully understood - and in this I think Nibbaana as an object of consciousness is what is being referenced - then there would be no escape. I like considering Nibbaana as the antithesis of the conditioned realities. ... Sarah: Yes, only by understanding conditioned realities can there be the escape and realisation of the unconditioned. The good quote also reminds me of the series of quotes I gave ages ago from the Udana and commentary [See 'Udana - Nibbana' in 'Useful Posts' in the files]. Here's one: >(p.1012 Udana com): 窶...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says 窶聾herein there is neither earth, nor water窶 and so on so as to indicate its own nature via an elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations(sankhara), so are all conditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is tha tof hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, northe fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the four great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), 窶朗or that base consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception窶.窶 Thanks again for your assistance, Scott. Metta, Sarah ========= #96807 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok (3) sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Tue, 24/3/09, Alex wrote: >> S: Firstly what is 'heavy samatha'? A:> Lots of work at removing the hindrances and building up super power mindfulness for insight to do the Job. The Jhanas are states of superpowerful sati and that IS helpful to get the job done. ... S: References for this 'building up super power mindfulness for insight to do the Job' and 'Jhanas are states of superpowerful sati'? ... A:> Look, you have read probably 100x the amount needed for Arahatship. Why aren't you an Arahant, Sarah? What is missing? ... S: Pa~n~naa - same for all of us! Reading is not Pa~n~naa. ... >So one shouldn't follow 8 fold Noble path because it includes Jhana? ... S: Develop right understanding and the rest will become clear:-). ... >So what should we study, the Bible? ... S: No 'we' to do. What arises now, does so by conditions. What we do now (including your sarcastic suggestion above!!)depends on many conditions. With more understanding, there is less thought about what we should do or which way we should turn. There are just dhammas which can be known now. ... >Being a happy clam is not a way to awakening. Even Buddha and other arahats did make choices/ ... S: By conditions or by Self? Metta, Sarah ====== #96808 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey buddhatrue Hi Kevin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, westbankj@... wrote: My view is that Ajahn Sujin teaches the > correct way of development for reaching nibbana. I don't disagree with what > she says. What exactly is this "correct way of development" which Sujin teaches that you agree with? (And since you are new to DSG I will warn you that I don't agree with KS on many issues. I find her to be a bit like Jim Jones. While you were in Bangkok, I hope you didn't drink the kool-aid :-). Metta, James #96809 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (54-56) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 25-mrt-2009, om 13:26 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > "Like the aspiration, great compassion (mahaakaru.naa) and skilful > means (upaayakosalla) are also conditions for the paaramiis. > Therein, 'skilful means' is the wisdom which transforms giving (and > the other nine virtues) into requisites of enlightenment." ----- N: I like this quote you give of the Cariyaapi.taka. I remember last time that Kh Sujin reminded us: 'No paramis without pa~n~naa. The eradication of akusala is the goal; and all paramis support one another to reach that goal. If the danger of akusala is not seen there will not be any paramis.' Nina. #96810 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:37 pm Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha truth_aerator Hi Jon, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > If Buddha wanted to mean that Jhayati (meditate, contemplate, jhana?) > > just happens, he could have used causative-passive forms such as jhapiyatha rather that Jhayatha (an active imperative). > > I understand "jhayati!" (the imperative) to mean "develop samatha and vipassana!". So it comes back again to an understanding of what constitutes that development. > > Jon > Jon, it means that one *has* to develop it (jhayati). With metta, Alex #96811 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1) truth_aerator Hi Sarah, >sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Tue, 24/3/09, Alex wrote: > >> S: Let's use a simple example. Let's say there is wise >reflection >on the Teachings of the Buddha now, wise reflection on >the Dhamma. >At such a moment there is calm (samatha)accompanie d by >pa~n~naa. > ... > >A:What about samma-samadhi the 8th factor of Noble 8 Path that >includes 4 Jhanas? > ... > S: What about it? 4 Jhanas are part of Noble 8 Fold path. Noble 8 fold path is the path to awakening. You can't pick and choose. > Are you asking about the lokuttara magga citta or what? You are going off the tangent, trying to obfuscate the issue with technical legerdemain. >Are you suggesting that all lay disciples, such as Visakha who >became enlightened at the age of seven and went on to have a very >large family, had attained all mundane jhanas? If Visakha went from worldling to Arahant, then yes. Jhanas were achieved. Didn't young Siddhartha achieve at least one Jhana under the tree during the ceremony? With metta, Alex #96812 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1) truth_aerator Hi Sarah, >sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Tue, 24/3/09, Alex wrote: > >> S: Let's use a simple example. Let's say there is wise >reflection >on the Teachings of the Buddha now, wise reflection on >the Dhamma. >At such a moment there is calm (samatha)accompanie d by >pa~n~naa. > ... > >A:What about samma-samadhi the 8th factor of Noble 8 Path that >includes 4 Jhanas? > ... > S: What about it? 4 Jhanas are part of Noble 8 Fold path. Noble 8 fold path is the path to awakening. You can't pick and choose which factors you can exclude and which you don't. > Are you asking about the lokuttara magga citta or what? You are going off the tangent, trying to obfuscate the issue with technical legerdemain. >Are you suggesting that all lay disciples, such as Visakha who >became enlightened at the age of seven and went on to have a very >large family, had attained all mundane jhanas? If Visakha went from worldling to Arahant, then yes. Jhanas were achieved. Didn't young Siddhartha achieve at least one Jhana under the tree during the ceremony? With metta, Alex #96813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (57-60) , sutta 57 and co. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 57: Walshe DN 33.1.10(57) 'Three topics of discussion: Talk may be of the past: "That's how it used to be"; of the future: "That's how it will be"'; of the present: "That's how it is now." (Ti.ni kathaa-vatthuuni. Atiita.m vaa addhaana.m aarabbha katha.m katheyya -- 'Eva.m ahosi atiita.m addhaanan ti.' Anaagata.m vaa addhaana.m aarabbha katha.m katheyya -- 'Eva.m bhavissati anaagatam addhaanan ti.' Etarahi vaa paccuppanna.m addhaana.m aarabbha katha.m katheyya -- 'Eva.m hoti etarahi paccuppannan ti.') ---------- N: As to Kathaavatthu, base of discussion, the co states that this is the reason (kaara.na) for the discussion. The past, is past dhamma, and these are the khandhas of the past. The Co refers to S, 71, Mode of reckoning: ...Whatsoever ruupa monks, is past, ceased, changed,- that is reckoned, termed, and named as 蘇as been. It is not reckoned as 訴s, nor is it reckoned as 層ill be. The same is said with regard to the four naama-khandhas. And evenso what is born and manifested is reckoned as 訴s, not as has been or will be. The same is said with regard to what is the future. N: The five khandhas arise and fall away, they are past, future or present. In the 'Points of Controversy' (Kathaavatthu) it is asked whether addhaa is something produced (parinipphanna). The answer is that only the five khandhas subject to the three periods of time can be said to be 'produced'. The subco states that the meaning of addhaa has been explained before. This is in sutta III, 24. Reviewing its co: Co to Sangiitisutta III, 24: three extents means three times (kaala). There are two methods: that of the Suttanta and that of the Abhidhamma. As to the Suttanta method, the past period is before the rebirth-consciousness. What is after the dying-consciousness is future. What is in between rebirth and death is present. ------ N: Thus here addhaa refers to lifespan. ---------- Co: As to the Abhidhamma method, what is included in the trio of moments (kha.na), [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called 'present'. At a time previous to that it is 'future'. At a time subsequent to that it is 'past'. N: The future has not come but will come, that is why it is said: At a time previous to that. ------- N: Nama and rupa are considered as to their arising moment, the moment of presence and the moment of dissolution. Whatever arises does so because of conditions. It is beyond control what ruupa or what naama arises at a particular moment. There is no self who can direct their arising. Nama and rupa fall away immediately. What has fallen away is no longer present. ----------- Pali co: Kathaavatthuuniiti kathaakaara.naani. Atiita.m vaa addhaananti atiita.m dhamma.m, atiitakkhandheti attho. Apica 荘ya.m, bhikkhave, ruupa.m atiita.m niruddha.m vipari.nata.m, 疎hosii稚i tassa sa"nkhaa, 疎hosii稚i tassa pa~n~natti 疎hosii稚i tassa sama~n~naa, na tassa sa"nkhaa 疎tthii稚i, na tassa sa"nkhaa 礎havissatii稚i (sa.m. ni. 3.62) eva.m aagatena niruttipathasuttenapettha attho diipetabbo. ------- Nina. #96815 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:58 pm Subject: Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL... truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Scott and all, > sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Scott & Alex, > > >"...Just as there is made known, on account of the fact that it is >capable of being fully understood, an escape from sense-desires and > forms that have that which surpasses them, which [escape] >consisting of that which is their opposite, has as its own nature >that which is the antithesis thereof, so does there have to be an >escape from all conditioned states having that as their own nature, >[which escape], consisting of that which is their opposite, has as >its own nature that which is the antithesis thereof. And that escape >is the unconditioned element..." > > > Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned >(sankhata) things, since it has as its own nature that which is >antithetical to all formations(sankhara), so are all conditioned >things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of >things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not >witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose >characteristic is tha tof hardness, nor the water element whose >characteristic is that of oozing, northe fire element whose >characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose >characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the >four great elements, the absence of all derived >materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world >of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own >nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next >said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the >states belonging to becoming in the formless >(sphere), 窶朗or that base consisting of endless space......nor that >base consisting of neither perception > nor non-perception窶.窶 > > Thanks again for your assistance, Scott. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= The above sounds like obfuscation of the issue regarding what Nibbana is. Replace the word Nibbana with the Self and we have a really sophisticated Atta vada. In fact when I was reading a little bit of VsM chapter on Nibbana, I didn't approve of its eternalistic underpinnings. Final Nibbana at the death of Arahant is the cessation of all the knowing & the known. Pray tell me, what can Arahant know, and with what, Paranibbana'ed after death?! :) Doesn't apply. The Nibbana (in Udana sutta), unestablished consciousness of the Arahant, these apply to Arahant *when he is alive*. Not after his passing away when everything will grow cool and mere bodily remains will remain (to be perceived by others only). If Nibbana were only the object of the mind, then it would necessarily be impermanent and conditioned, and would cease with death of the Arahant. With metta, Alex #96817 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Sarah) - In a message dated 3/25/2009 10:47:27 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: If Visakha went from worldling to Arahant, then yes. Jhanas were achieved. Didn't young Siddhartha achieve at least one Jhana under the tree during the ceremony? ============================ Indeed. In MN 36, the Buddha taught the following in speaking of his own efforts towards awakening: __________________________ I thought: 'Whatever priests or contemplatives in the past have felt painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None have been greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the future will feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None will be greater than this. Whatever priests or contemplatives in the present are feeling painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None is greater than this. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?' I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then 窶 quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities 窶 I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated. -------------------------------------------- I note, in particular, the Buddha's unequivocal assertion in speaking of jhana: "That is the path to awakening." I note also that jhana practice is explicitly contrasted here with striving to an extreme degree. Jhana practice should be a middle-way one characterized by calm, clarity, and ever-increasing relinquishment, and, as is the case with all Dhamma practice, involving a striving, to use the words in Sn 1.1, that is "without pushing forward, without staying in place." With metta, Howard Hindrances *(From the Avarana Sutta) #96818 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:34 pm Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! scottduncan2 Dear Jon and Jonathan, Regarding: "Verse 53. Those Born Into This World Must Acquire Much Merit As from a mass of flowers many a garland may be made, so by one born mortal should many good deeds be done. Explanation: The deft maker of garlands takes a variety of flowers. Out of these he creates garlands of different strands and variegated arrangements. In the same way, those who are born into this world should, out of their lives, create good, wholesome, meritorious actions of a vast variety." Jon: "...the person who has an eye for developing kusala sees opportunities where others would not, and he/she is thus able to develop a wide range of kusala (instead of, for example, just dana or just certain kinds of wholesome bodily conduct). In terms of the development of the path, this person can discriminate between the different parts of the doctrine, fitting the disparate parts together into a harmonious whole." Scott: My opinion - I'd suggest that this 'person' is developed pa~n~naa; the 'eye'sees more and more clearly as bhaavanaa-maaya-pa~n~naa proceeds. Pa~n~naa knows kusala and then kusala develops. The garland is the string of the seven javana moments with pa~n~naa - the seven flowers,the kusala-citta-viithi - which are the kammically advantageous dhammaa. Sincerely, Scott. #96819 From: westbankj@... Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey farrel.kevin Hi Sarah, Thanks a lot for the warm welcome. My flight back to the States went fine. There were no problems, except sitting next to the beautiful Korean girl on the flight home did made me a little bit dizzy! I'm fortunate because I'll be going back to school in the summer. The discussion in Bangkok helped me a great deal. I had the good kamma, and good fortune to meet Ajahn Sujin, Nina, Robert Kirkpatrick, Sukin, Ivan, and the whole group. As far as my discussions with bhikkhus, I think I'll save that for another day... Ah, the perils of samsara.... Kevin #96820 From: westbankj@... Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey farrel.kevin Ah, Hi James, Well, the correct way of development is having panna on the intellectual level, which is the main condition for panna on the experiential level. Of course, panna arises on the experiential level based only on the right conditions, which are not really in our ability to induce. I hope this helps. No, I did not drink the kool-aid, although the sweet iced-tea at the DSF is pretty good, and I had it almost every time. :p Kevin #96824 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:42 pm Subject: Where is sila & samadhi? truth_aerator Hi Kevin, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, westbankj@... wrote: > > Ah, Hi James, > >Well, the correct way of development is having panna on the >intellectual level, which is the main condition for panna on the >experiential level. Of course, panna arises on the experiential >level based only on the right conditions, which are not really in >our >ability to induce. What about Sila and Samadhi? Panna is fully perfected at the ARHATSHIP LEVEL. ""And what is the training in heightened discernment (adhipa~n~nAAsikkhAA)? There is the case where a monk, through the ending of the mental fermentations, enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & made them manifest for himself right in the here & now. This is called the training in heightened discernment." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.089.than.html In The Anguttara 9.12 & AN1.231 it is said that stream enterer fulfills sila but has limited samadhi & panna pannaya mattaso kari (insignificant wisdom) but fulfills virtue (sila). Anagamin fulfills sila & samadhi but has limited panna Arhat has full sila, samadhi, panna. So the order of perfection is: sila then Samadhi, THEN PANNA (wisdom). Panna gets fulfilled LAST and it does depend on Samadhi which depends on Sila. With metta, Alex #96825 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey buddhatrue HI Kevin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, westbankj@... wrote: > > Ah, Hi James, > > Well, the correct way of development is having panna on the intellectual > level, which is the main condition for panna on the experiential level. Of > course, panna arises on the experiential level based only on the right > conditions, which are not really in our ability to induce. James: I just read this and sigh to myself. First, there is no such thing as an "intellectual level" of panna. Panna is not of the nature of the intellect. Any self-perceived, so called, "intellectual level of panna" is really just conceit. Second, something which doesn't exist can't be a condition for something which does exist. In other words, it is impossible to "think" your way to nibbana. > > I hope this helps. > > No, I did not drink the kool-aid, James: Ah, but I'm afraid you did drink the kool-aid. Metta, James #96828 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:48 am Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Kevin and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Kevin, > > Welcome and thanks from me as well for joining us here and making your presence known. I hope your return to the States has worked out as smoothly as anything ever works out (or doesn't) in samsara.....all worldly conditions. [Thank goodness for having heard about dhammas! <. . .> ------------------ (Welcome from me too, Kevin.) Yes, Sarah, thank goodness for having heard about dhammas! Where would we be if we hadn't heard about them? It doesn't bear thinking about. For a start I would still be caught up in arguments about politics. I would be thinking there were good (kusala) political parties and bad (akusala) political parties. But now that I know there aren't - only dhammas can be kusala or akusala - I can no longer take politics seriously. And I'm glad I can't. There are no good or bad political parties, political policies, or politicians. No more so than there are good or bad flying-purple-elephants. The same applies to all concepts; ultimately they don't exist. And what of the kusala and akusala things (dhammas) that really do exist? Can I have attachment for some and aversion for others? How silly would that be? Fleeting namas that come and go disinterestedly (purely by conditions) cannot possibly be worthy of attachment or aversion. Ultimately the world is not such a bad place after all! :-) Ken H #96829 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) epsteinrob Hi Jon. -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > Rob: Why did the Buddha say in anapanasati sutta that one who continued to practice in this way would develop Satipatthana and the factors of enlightenment? Think he was just having a bad day? > 末末末末末末末末末末末 > > ;-)) Hardly. > > On the Anapanasati Sutta generally, I think we agree the Buddha did not say that one who continued practising anapanasati would thereby come to develop satipatthana and the factors of enlightenment. > > What he said, to my understanding, was that a person who developed *both* anapanasati (as samatha) and satipatthana could attain enlightenment with jhana as basis, and he proceeded to describe how. But he was talking to monks who were already of high attainment in samatha and vipassana, so what he said in that sutta was not meant to be a handbook for beginners like you and me ;-)) > > Now getting to the point at issue in the earlier post, which was the difference between the "directly looking" of someone with little developed understanding and the "directly seeing" that *is* the development of understanding. It's true there is reference in the sutta to remaining focussed and the like. But again it needs to be emphasised that his audience were of an extremely high level of development, and "remaining focussed" was a natural and normal state of being (and not something they were being urged to take up ;-)). I am not a scholar and was not there, so don't know for sure exactly who was the audience or exactly the significance. But I can say that: a/ the fact that he may have had an accomplished audience does *not* logically lead to the idea that an unaccomplished audience would not likewise benefit from the practice he described or could not follow the path laid out in anapanasati. b/ Buddha did not state that this path was "difficult arduous and only for the advanced" as he surely might if he wanted those in the audience to be aware of who should or shouldn't take it up. Surely, in other suttas he made clear that he was referring to conditions for arahants, stream-enterers, novices, monks, householders or whatever. He often made clear who he was addressing or who the practices he described were meant for. So the fact he did not make any such indication in the anapanasati sutta suggests to me that he was not directing his comments to only those of a specific level of attainment. Certainly one cannot assume so based on what he actually said. It is often described at beginning of suttas who happened to be in attendance, and not necessarily to say that these are the only ones who can benefit from the practice at hand. The arahants who collected these teachings in written form and put them into the canon also, as far as I know, did not give an indication that anapanasati was "only for those already advanced in both samatha and vipassana." My own view is that most who are advanced in those areas got advanced in them by practicing anapanasati, and so the vicious chicken-egg cycle of cyclical discussion continues. c/ If you are correct, then most of the serious practicing Theravadin community has got it wrong, as in almost everywhere in the world where a Theravadin monastery or center exists, beginners are instructed in anapansati as the baseline practice every day, along with reading and studying sutta of course. In some countries there are stronger traditions of also following abhidhamma and commentaries, and in some there are not, but in every country in which Theravada exists, anapansati is practiced as a normal part of the Theravadin lifestyle. There is nowhere where it is not a part of Theravadin practice except in one or another specific sub-community. Even in countries where high regard is paid to Abhidhamma and commentaries, most combine Adhidhamma study with vipassana meditation. It is one thing to have a disagreement with other schools of Buddhism which are really part of an alternate tradition such as the Mahayana schools, but it is another to be out of step with 90% of one's own sangha. I see no reason myself not to combine the kinds of study and understanding of which you approve with the traditional meditation practices of the Theravadin community, but I know this is not something that you find reconcilable. I personally don't see any problem with seeing both as having value. The main problem comes down to believing that any purposeful act, other than reading and discussing Dhamma, is based on wrong view. I don't see any reason to think that. It seems to be a view that intellectual understanding is the correct path, and that perceptual discernment, which is actual direct seeing in life, is either wrong or impossible, and that does not seem correct to me. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #96830 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 3/25/2009 12:07:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > Why did the Buddha say in anapanasati sutta that one who continued to > practice in this way would develop Satipatthana and the factors of enlightenment? > Think he was just having a bad day? > =============================== > LOLOL! A funny, mildly irreverent turn of speech, Robert! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard :-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #96831 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh epsteinrob Hi Howard, and all. I have missed so many posts, it has me panting. I will have to practice anapanasati of the panting breath to calm down.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 3/22/2009 3:38:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes: > > > It's been years since I've read the Surangama Sutra, and I largely > > forget it. what I DO recall is that it deals a lot with hearing, and it > considers > > hearing to be ongoing - a notion I find odd. > > The main point I got out of it is that our understanding of the senses and > how they relate to a "reality" that we perceive is a mental construct that > does not represent the actual process. And they explore this through each of > the senses in great philosophical detail. > ----------------------------------------------- > Ahh, interesting. I'll have to try to dig it out and reread it. > --------------------------------------------- I'd be very interested in anything you have to say about it. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #96832 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi again, Robert - > > In a message dated 3/22/2009 3:38:26 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes, with regard to the Surangama Sutra: > > The main point I got out of it is that our understanding of the senses and > how they relate to a "reality" that we perceive is a mental construct that > does not represent the actual process. And they explore this through each of > the senses in great philosophical detail. > ================================= > I just found a translation of the Surangama Sutta by Charles Luk in PDF > form, and, wow, there is much more to it than I had realized. I believe that > what I read in the past must have been just a lengthy excerpt. I look forward > to reading this! (For those interested, the site at which I found this is > _http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf_ > (http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf) ). > > With metta, > Howard Charles Luk is my translator of choice, although I believe he left out some interesting stuff on karma/kamma that he didn' consider relevant. Until recently it was out of print and not on-line. I got my hard copy from India. It's a boon that a couple of version are now available on the web. I'll look forward to hearing what you have to say about the sutra. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #96834 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. Oh I left the greeting off again. This time I get a demerit. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep, > > --- On Fri, 20/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > > >When I say entity, I mean a kind of self or individual identity. If each of these mental factors are "experiencers, " that is the same as saying they are selves. If experience just arises for consciousness in an objective way, that is one thing. > ... > S: What do you mean by this last sentence? Take the example of hearing consciousness, what does it mean for 'experience to arise for hearing in an objective way'? Well if we are just saying that it is an event that arises, that seems different to me than saying that all these mental factors are individually experiencing it. That means that they each have consciousness. It is one thing for citta to be the experiencing element, but if these separate elements are each aware and not just part of the mechanism, they are like little conscious beings in a sense, all collaborating. I hope this makes sense. If not, I am not sure whether I can make it much clearer. It is a problem in the first place to keep citta from appearing to be a 'recieving entity' that is aware of dhamma. To give this power to each mental factor as well certainly increases the appearance of aware beings arising and disappearing, in my view. > ... > >But if there is a specific consciousness, like something that stands there to take a particular experience in, and the cetasikas do this as well, each in its own right, how are they not like little momentary selves? > ... > S: Again, I don't know what it would mean for hearing to 'stand there to take a particular experience in' (or for cetasikas to do so.) > > Cittas and cetasikas arise momentarily, perform their functions of experiencing an object and then fall away. No atta is involved. How are they aware? What form do they take to be aware of something? Citta is formless is it not? It is like a clear window, not a thing. Once you have multiple experiencing elements, you have a series of forms, do you not? I am sorry if this does not communicate well. > > [forget those other sutras and other teachings you've been reading:-)] [don't think the current problem comes from those, but appreciate the warning! :-) [[I don't actually read much, except lately for KS's Survey :)))) ] > >S: Take seeing consciousness as an example. It is different from hearing and it is different from visible object. It is the nama which sees visible object. The vedana (feeling) which accompanies it, 'tastes' the visible object. Again, vedana is anatta, but it is not 'nothing', because it's an element. What does it mean to 'be an element?' Does it have a form during its duration before it falls away? Or only a function? And if a function, what does this function work through, the citta? Or independently? > .... > R:> This is very subtle business - the line between "not being nothing" and "not being a self." > ... > S: Yes, the teachings are all subtle. The understanding of namas and rupas is subtle. > ... > R:> If namas and rupas are seen as "real existent things," rather than arising and falling experiences, they are verging on the edge of selfhood, and there is a danger they will be seen as real in a way that establishes their substantiality. > ... > S: They are dhammas with characteristics. They are not illusions or concepts as other teachings would have us believe. Now, it can be tested out that there is hardness experienced at a moment of touching the computer, visible object is seen by seeing consciousness, sound is heard. There is thinking about all these experiences. So the test comes down to a moment of awareness and right understanding now. No substantial thing or self involved, but let's not deny the realities. I would not deny the reality of citta experiencing the dhamma in the moment. But all these other factors being experiencing elements rather than simply adjuncts or properties of citta seems a problem to me, because once you have something in addition to consciousness and dhamma, you have bounded separated entities that are given substance, in my view. They have to have a relationship to each other and are thus made greater than their mere function as part of citta. You have a cosmology of little elements that all have definitions with relation to each other. This seems almost like a replication of the delusory sense of whole specific entities that we have in samsara, rather than right seeing. > ... > R:> That's my fear when too much emphasis is put on how *real* they are, rather than how they demonstrate the three characteristics, which really tend to show that they are ultimately *not* real [as we experience them.] > ... > S: No, I disagree. The three characteristics are the characteristics of these realities. We cannot talk of anicca, dukkha or anatta *apart* from seeing, apart from visible object, apart from contact and so on. This is why the Buddha talked at length about the khandhas, the dhatus, the ayatanas and so on. Visible object is exactly as it is experienced now. The only difference is that now, there is usually ignorance of it, whereas when right understanding develops, it is seen for the reality it is. I think there is a problem when descriptions of absence or understanding or turned into tangible properties in their own right. Anatta and anicca are not objects themselves, they are realizations about objects. One sees that a dhamma is subject to anicca, but there is no "anicca" to be found in a dhamma. It's a realization that it is impermanent. Impermanence is not itself a thing. > ... > >I am more comfortable with Buddha's admonitions to see all things are temporary and passing away, unsatisfying and not containing a core or being part of self, than emphasizing the momentary, changing reality as being a series of *real things.* > ... > S: But what are these 'all things' which he taught as being 'temporary and passing away...' and so on? Again the realities or dhammas as classified as khandhas, ayatanas and so on. I think the Buddha taught that these classifications, while experienced in life as this or that, are themselves conventional and not actual. Citta is not a thing, it is an aspect of samsaric experience. Contact is an element of experience, not a thing; etc. They are not substantial. They are aspects of delusory experience within samsara. the fact that Buddha explained them through the categories of kandhas, etc., explains how they are elements of experience, not that they are substantial things themselves. They are just part of the explanation of delusion. > .... > >This latter emphasis may make the arising and falling dhammas more important than they should be. The point, as you do often emphasize, is only that they demonstrate impermanence and non-self. > ... > S: Without understanding the conditioned dhammas as impermanent, dukkha and anatta, it's impossible to realise the unconditioned dhamma. And without understanding the characteristics of the individual dhammas, it's impossible to understand the general characteristics of dhammas, such as their impermanence. Please explain why one must understand the individual characteristics of individual dhammas in order to see that they are impermanent and non-self. If one experiences them changing, this is necessary to see that they are impermanent, but does one need to know exactly what it is that is changing in order to see this? Does one need to be able to enumerate the cetasikas, duration length, etc., in order to see anicca directly? If one experiences hardness, and then the hardness changes or falls away, doesn't that demonstrate anicca immediately? If taste experiences sweetness and then it falls away, doesn't this demonstrate anicca? If one discerns this falling away, that should be enough to realize anicca, no? What does the breakdown of all the related properties and categorizations of all dhammas do to increase this realization? > ... > >....One should always justify any interpretation by seeing that it illuminates but doesn't contradict what the Buddha originally spoke. Buddha himself has to get the final word. > ... > S: I think you'll find that what I've said above can be found throughout the Tipitaka:-). > > When you talk about awareness in the kitchen whilst washing the dishes, what is this awareness of, if not of softness, sound, thinking, feeling and other realities? It is not awareness of nothing! I agree, it is awareness of experiences, each one of those is experienced by the senses or mind, and consciousness is aware of this. With sati, citta would be aware that this is taking place directly. With panna, citta would know what this is. I would agree that this is direct experience, no disagreement there. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #96835 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > . > > c/ If you are correct, then most of the serious practicing Theravadin community > has got it wrong, as in almost everywhere in the world where a Theravadin > monastery or center exists, beginners are instructed in anapansati as the > baseline practice every day, along with reading and studying sutta of course. > > In some countries there are stronger traditions of also following abhidhamma and > commentaries, and in some there are not, but in every country in which Theravada > exists, anapansati is practiced as a normal part of the Theravadin lifestyle. > There is nowhere where it is not a part of Theravadin practice except in one or > another specific sub-community. > > > It is one thing to have a disagreement with other schools of Buddhism which are > really part of an alternate tradition such as the Mahayana schools, but it is > another to be out of step with 90% of one's own sangha. ++++++++ Dear Rob ep, Are you sure all this is true. I live in Thailand but maybe someone who lives in the USA gets a different perspective on Dhamma. As we have discussed on dsg Pa auk is a famous monk in Burma but his books are actually banned (by the learned monks on the religious council). This is because he was very critical of mahasi sayadaw becuase that saydaw didn't recommend anapansati(mahasi sayadaw was once a bit controversial is now orthodax in burma). From a published booklet about the debate: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/pandita5.htm """Some very thick books of Pa Auk Sayadaw in English which were sent to Myanmar from Taiwan have been banned and prohibited from distribution by the Maha Nayaka Sayadaws of the Myanmar Religious Affairs Department in Kaba Aye, Yangon. In response to an attack on the Mahasi method by one Pa Auk disciple, Sayadaw U Panditabhivamsa remarked, "One should not immerse poison into pure, clean water which is very useful. After being contaminated it will become useless. So don't put poison into pure, clean water" >>>>>>For over forty years, Panditarama Sayadaw had been the chief disciple and successor to Mahasi Sayadaw, and had been teaching vipassana meditation based on the Mahasi method. Now, Panditarama Sayadaw has become perhaps the foremost and most successful among many Myanmar Sayadaws teaching vipassana who have won world-wide renown. When Sayadaw came to the Kuala Lumpur monastery where I was, I took the opportunity to put Mary Shimoda's questions to Sayadaw. Firstly, "Did the Buddha not attain Buddhahood through anapana-sati?" "Ko Hla Myint," the Sayadaw replied, "You have not studied the scriptures with the necessary attention to detail. It is true that the Buddha-to-be attained pubbenivasanussau-abhinna (Knowledge of Former States of Being) and dibbacakkhu abhinna (the Divine Eye of Omniscient Vision) in the first and second watches of the night through anapana-sati. But in the third and last watch of the night, the Buddha-to-be was no longer absorbed in anapana-sati, but had turned his great intellect to the doctrine of paticcasamuppada, or Dependent Origination. Thus, Buddhahood was won NOT THROUGH anapana-sati, but through mindfulness on the physical and mental phenomena of the five khandhas." >>>> Pandita then says: """""In the Visuddhi-Magga, anapana-satiis presented as an object of samatha meditation. Consequently, if we are to instruct yogis to develop anapana-sati as part of vipassana meditation, we will be inviting much unwanted and unwarranted criticism and controversy. And neither Mahasi Sayadaw or myself would want to argue here that the Visuddhi-Magga, the rightly venerated classic, is at fault here.""""enquote Thus , at least according to this monk Mahasi sayadaw never taught anapansati (or not as any part of vipassana development at least). He is now orthodox in burma. Now of course I have serious reservations about mahasi style pratice, however I do agree with him on these points. Although whether Pa auk's books should have been banned is anotehr matter. Just as a warning to anyone every contemplating criticising mahasi style (as I have occasionally done) the book goes on to say that: >>>>1) Anyone who attacks Mahasi Sayadaw will surely suffer a fall and that the method of practice promulgated by this person, will not last long as the burning of dried paddy straw.>>> Robert #96836 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Jon. Appreciate your comments, and will select one at the end for reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > Hope you don't mind me butting in here ;-)) not at all! :-) > Consider this for a moment. In the classification of dhammas as the 5 khandhas (rupa/form, vedana/feeling, sanna/memory, sankhara/formations, vinnana/consciousness), the second, third and fourth khandhas refer to the cetasikas, while the fifth refers to citta. Indeed, the second and third khandhas each refer to a single cetasika. So here considerable prominence is given to cetasikas. They are certainly not any less 'real' than citta. I have no objection to the cetasikas, or their significance. What I have a problem with is saying that they "experience" the dhamma in addition to "citta" experiencing the dhamma. How do all these separate experiences coordinate with each other? It makes them into separable elements, rather than part of the same act of consciousness, and gives them each a stronger sense of separate agency [entity] then I believe they should or do have. That is a problem for me and not how I see the five kandhas lining up at each moment. I see citta as the only experiencing element, and the cetasikas as part of what is experienced by citta. This is the point of contention. Contact does not occur between the eye-door and the object of vision without consciousness. The question is, does eye-door have its own awareness of object of vision that is then somehow coordinated with the awareness of citta, or is it citta experiencing the object of vision through its contact with the eye-door. I think the latter makes sense, as it leaves one consciousness engaging in an act of awareness through the cetasikas by which it touches the object; the former, which leaves several separate awarenesses, is full of trouble as far as I can see. I know I have read support for this view in sutta, but am not a good enough scholar to find a ready reference. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #96837 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:35 am Subject: Impossible! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Ceasing of Kamma comes only by Exhaustion of Effect! The Blessed Buddha once said: I tell you, Bhikkhus and Friends, that it is absolutely impossible, that willed, intended, performed, & accumulated actions (kamma) will cease to be effective as long as one has not yet experienced their results, be it in this life, or in the next life, or in even further future lives! And it is equally impossible, that without having experienced these results of one's accumulated, intended, & performed past actions, that one will be able to put an end to Suffering. May this hereby be known! <...> Disadvantageous Action (Kamma) has painful effects! Source: Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 10:208 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm Advantageous is respecting bhikkhus, parents, elders & teachers. Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samﾄ”ita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Impossible! #96838 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] K. Sujin's Survey, p.147 - All Equal/Don't Own Anything epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep, > > --- On Sun, 22/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >Hi Sarah. > Whoops, back with a greeting - same post again.... > ... > S: :-) No penalty ticket this time! > .... Well I've done it again, in a recent post. This time I demand my penalty! :-( > > >>--- it will be realised that paramattha dhammas are the same for all people, and that in that respect all people are equal. ... The seeing-consciousnes s and what appears to seeing, visible object, do not belong to anybody. Therefore, we should not take anything for "I" or "mine." << > > ... > > S: And in this way we can understand that seeing and its visible object is no more special for a billionaire in the States than for a beggar in India. Just paramattha dhammas of no particular importance at all. > > R:> Of course, to end relative suffering one would have to be aware of that, which I guess is the Buddha's point in that area. > ... > S: Yes, what we learn is that in the ultimate sense, as in the 4 Noble Truths, all impermanent realities are dukkha, sankhara dukkha. The Truths are equaly applicable to all such experiences. Each visible object is dukkha. That is worth emphasizing. > ... > >>S: This is why it's the understanding of dhammas which leads to detachment and relinquishment. > .. > R:>That is interesting. Thanks for your comments back. > ... > S: Likewise..... :) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #96839 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) epsteinrob Hi Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Epstein" wrote: > > > > . > > > > c/ If you are correct, then most of the serious practicing Theravadin community > > has got it wrong, as in almost everywhere in the world where a Theravadin > > monastery or center exists, beginners are instructed in anapansati as the > > baseline practice every day, along with reading and studying sutta of course. > > > > In some countries there are stronger traditions of also following abhidhamma and > > commentaries, and in some there are not, but in every country in which Theravada > > exists, anapansati is practiced as a normal part of the Theravadin lifestyle. > > There is nowhere where it is not a part of Theravadin practice except in one or > > another specific sub-community. > > > > > It is one thing to have a disagreement with other schools of Buddhism which are > > really part of an alternate tradition such as the Mahayana schools, but it is > > another to be out of step with 90% of one's own sangha. > > ++++++++ > Dear Rob ep, > Are you sure all this is true. I live in Thailand but maybe someone who lives in the USA gets a different perspective on Dhamma. > As we have discussed on dsg Pa auk is a famous monk in Burma but his books are actually banned (by the learned monks on the religious council). This is because he was very critical of mahasi sayadaw becuase that saydaw didn't recommend anapansati(mahasi sayadaw was once a bit controversial is now orthodax in burma). > > > From a published booklet about the debate: > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/pandita5.htm > """Some very thick books of Pa Auk Sayadaw in English which were sent to Myanmar from Taiwan have been banned and prohibited from distribution by the Maha Nayaka Sayadaws of the Myanmar Religious Affairs Department in Kaba Aye, Yangon. > > In response to an attack on the Mahasi method by one Pa Auk disciple, Sayadaw U Panditabhivamsa remarked, "One should not immerse poison into pure, clean water which is very useful. After being contaminated it will become useless. So don't put poison into pure, clean water" > > > > >>>>>>For over forty years, Panditarama Sayadaw had been the chief disciple and successor to Mahasi Sayadaw, and had been teaching vipassana meditation based on the Mahasi method. > > Now, Panditarama Sayadaw has become perhaps the foremost and most successful among many Myanmar Sayadaws teaching vipassana who have won world-wide renown. When Sayadaw came to the Kuala Lumpur monastery where I was, I took the opportunity to put Mary Shimoda's questions to Sayadaw. Firstly, "Did the Buddha not attain Buddhahood through anapana-sati?" > > "Ko Hla Myint," the Sayadaw replied, "You have not studied the scriptures with the necessary attention to detail. It is true that the Buddha-to-be attained pubbenivasanussau-abhinna (Knowledge of Former States of Being) and dibbacakkhu abhinna (the Divine Eye of Omniscient Vision) in the first and second watches of the night through anapana-sati. But in the third and last watch of the night, the Buddha-to-be was no longer absorbed in anapana-sati, but had turned his great intellect to the doctrine of paticcasamuppada, or Dependent Origination. Thus, Buddhahood was won NOT THROUGH anapana-sati, but through mindfulness on the physical and mental phenomena of the five khandhas." > > >>>> > Pandita then says: > """""In the Visuddhi-Magga, anapana-satiis presented as an object of samatha meditation. Consequently, if we are to instruct yogis to develop anapana-sati as part of vipassana meditation, we will be inviting much unwanted and unwarranted criticism and controversy. And neither Mahasi Sayadaw or myself would want to argue here that the Visuddhi-Magga, the rightly venerated classic, is at fault here.""""enquote > > Thus , at least according to this monk Mahasi sayadaw never taught anapansati (or not as any part of vipassana development at least). He is now orthodox in burma. Now of course I have serious reservations about mahasi style pratice, however I do agree with him on these points. Although whether Pa auk's books should have been banned is anotehr matter. > > Just as a warning to anyone every contemplating criticising mahasi style (as I have occasionally done) the book goes on to say that: > > >>>>1) Anyone who attacks Mahasi Sayadaw will surely suffer a fall and that the method of practice promulgated by this person, will not last long as the burning of dried paddy straw.>>> This does not make too much sense to me. Sayadaw taught vipassana meditation. I don't know his exact technique, but I would be shocked if it did not include breathing awareness and the four foundations. Here is a brief description from a website on his work: [http://www.buddhanet.net/mahabio.htm] "During this period the Sayadaw's disciples prevailed upon him to write the `Manual of Vipassana Meditation', an authoritative and comprehensive work expounding both the doctrinal and practical aspects of satipatthana meditation. "It was not long before the Mahasi Sayadaw's reputation as a skilled meditation teacher had spread throughout the Shwebo-Sagaing region and came to the attention of a devout and wealthy Buddhist, Sir U Thwin. U Thwin wanted to promote the Buddha Sasana by setting up a meditation centre directed by a teacher of proven virtue and ability. After listening to a discourse on vipassana given by the Sayadaw and observing his serene and noble demeanour, Sir U Thwin had no difficulty in deciding that the Mahasi Sayadaw was the meditation teacher he had been looking for." Whether you call his meditation anapanasati or not, and whether or not Buddha used it in this or that watch [he certainly used it to get to the third or fourth watch and promoted it throughout his life afterwards] it is clear that Sayadaw was an Insight Meditation teacher, teaching a form of Vipassana meditation and Satipatthana practice while meditating. As for the Vism, and one's respect for it, I respect the commentaries, as long as they do not contradict the teachings of the Buddha. As for the government of Burma and the council of learned monks, if they are approved and appointed by the current cruel and authoritarian government, I wouldn't put much stock in what they do or say. Best, Robert E. - - - - - - - - #96840 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sila and the first stage of holiness sarahprocter... Dear Arjan, Howard & all, --- On Mon, 23/3/09, upasaka@... wrote: ============ ========= ========= >An informative sutta in this regard is the Vera Sutta, available via the following link to Access to Insight: __ (http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an10/an10. 092.than. html) .... S: thanks for the link, Howard. Arjan, what do you think of it? Another helpful one is this: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel061.html It's the Simile of the Cloth and Nyanaponika includes a lot of very helpful notes based on the commentaries. If you're interested, we could go through one or both of these suttas (plus notes) paragraph at a time. I think they answer all your questions. Metta, Sarah ====== #96841 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:59 am Subject: Re: The History of Bhaavanaa As Formal Theravada Meditation Goes Back To The Bud sarahprocter... Hi Robert A (& Jon), I was just reading through your discussion together and I thought Rob A asked particularly pertinent questions, starting with: "Do those who adhere to the no-meditation position feel any unease about this position being so out of step with almost all modern Theravada teachers with the exception of Khun Sujin?" and Jon was giving interesting answers, as in #96040. I got to this message of Jon's in the thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/96070 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > >R: Is this a somewhat limiting view of the Buddha's teachings? What > of his teachings on virtue, > > his teachings on generosity, or his teachings on patience? > >J: The teachings on other kinds of kusala (other than satipatthaana/ > insight) are also important, and are by no means excluded in my > comment. > > But the teaching on satipatthaana/development of insight is > particularly important because that is the teaching that is unique to > a Buddha, and that leads out of samsara. > > Also, it is noticeable in the suttas that once a person becomes > interested in the teachings he/she also becomes interested in > observing sila and developing other levels of kusala, and this is > borne out by my own observation and experience. So the fact that > there is less discussion about these other levels does not mean they > are not of interest ;-)) > > What are your own thoughts on this? ... S: Anyway, I'd be interested to hear as well and to encourage the good discussion. Don't be concerned about keeping Jon on his toes - we all benefit:-). Metta, Sarah ========= #96842 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:58 am Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy sarahprocter... Dear Connie, Colette and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > ... good if the loss of a loved one brings about a gain in wisdom, no? I wish you much wealth. > > I'm reading Kindred Sayings with Verses, so let me share with you part of what was said to Udaya: > Again, again we tire and toil anew, > Again, again the slow wits seek rebirth, > Again, again comes birth and dying comes, > Again, again men bear us to the grave. > When once the man of broad insight the Path > Which brings no new becoming doth attain, > Then is he no more born again, again. KS I vii 2 $2 .... S: I really like these reminders of 'Again and Again...' I just checked in the Bodhi translation (7:12 Udaya). It seems that the Buddha went to the brahmin Udaya's residence three days in a row and each time Udaya filled the Buddha's bowl with rice. After the third visit, Udaya made the comment: "This pesky ascetic Gotama keeps coming again and again." [footnote: "paka.t.thaka Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sila and the first stage of holiness sarahprocter... Hi Arjan, --- On Mon, 23/3/09, ajschrier wrote: >concerning the fifth precept, I know of one sutta in which, after his death, a peron who had given himself over to alcohol was said to be a sotaapanna (by the Buddha?). His felow men were dismayed to hear this and complained that anyone could become a sotaapanna these days. The commentary stated that he achieved Sotaapatti after stopping to drink. I.e. after his last drink. But I question this reading. It was not stated like this in the sutta. ... S: Yes, it was said by the Buddha. The effects of the alcohol were dissipated as he became enlightened. It's like the suttas about monks committing suicide. People don't accept the commentarial explanations, but the commentaries accord with everything else we read in the Tipitaka. (see below) ... In the Noble Eightfold Path the abstainig from strong liquor is not mentioned at Right Action. I would agree of course that while being in a tipsy or more intoxicated state one cannot see the path due to lack of sati. In one translation, suraa meraya an majja are all said te be names for strong liquor. So maybe the person mentioned did get drunk from undistilled alcohol;-)? ... For example, in the sutta Howard gave the link to, it says: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.092.than.html "When, for a disciple of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with the four factors of stream-entry; .... "When a person drinks distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness, then with the drinking of distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness as a requisite condition, he produces fear & animosity in the here & now, produces fear & animosity in future lives, experiences mental concomitants of pain & despair; but when he refrains from drinking distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness, he neither produces fear & animosity in the here & now nor does he produce fear & animosity in future lives, nor does he experience mental concomitants of pain & despair: for one who refrains from drinking distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness, that fear & animosity is thus stilled." Lots more on 'Drinking alcohol' in "Useful Posts" in the files section of DSG. Metta, Sarah ====== #96844 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sila and the first stage of holiness sarahprocter... Hi Arjan again, --- On Mon, 23/3/09, ajschrier wrote: >On the forth precept, If a sotaappana is already unable to say any lie, he would be as thruthfull as an arahant. However I think such honesty is only possible for an arahant. ... S: As Nina has already explained, other kinds of tendency with regard to wrong speech have not yet been eradicated, but no more tendency to tell a lie under any circumstances. It's said that the Bodhisatta through all his lives (as recounted in the Jatakas), broke every other precept, but never told a lie, as I recall. ... >A sutta states however that a sottapana connot hide any wrongdoing he did. This implies that he aint yet perfect, which we agree he is not. ... S: Examples are given of accidentally not keeping the Vinaya, but the wrongdoing once known has to be revealed. No, still a long way from being perfect. However, sila to the degree of keeping the 5 precepts perfectly has been attained. ... >And the first precept, I know I killed some insects and even "euthanised" a dog and a cat myself even after seeing that my previous belief in an real ego (a self) was flawed. I know that in the case of killing the insect my motivation was not exactly to kill it but more to get rid of the nausance.So maybe a answer lies in the fact that the mind at that moment was not willing the being to die but only to get rid of it. But I doubt this and still believe it was a panatipata. Now i hope to do beter and practise not to kill these creatures even when they are in pain. ... S: Killing is killing and a sotapanna will not destroy to 'get rid of a nuisance'. Of course, there are degrees of akusala kamma patha. Again, lots more in 'U.P.' under 'Killing'. .... >I also cannot say if and where I read that the heinous deeds are left behind in a sottaapanna. The five heinous deeds cause rebirth in hell. And sotapatti liberates one from all four apaaya bhuumi. So again I am probably wrong on the idea that only these five deeds are left behind at sottapati. .... S: Again see the 'Vera Sutta': "...then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ende; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'" >>> I am sorry that I don't have the relevant texts at hand. Does any body know where it is stated that anger is weekened at sottapati to the level where panatipati and adinadaana is no longer possible? I thought that only the three citta's were eradicated, 1 the citta with lobha and ditthi and 2 the citta with moha and vicikicchaa, 3 the citta with dosa and macchariya is also eliminated at sottapatti ... S: Again, see the detail in the link I gave to the 'Simile of the Cloth' (wheel) and discuss further if not clear. ... >With an investigating mind and metta, Arjan Schrier ... S: I like the 'investigating mind'. May I ask: is 'Arjan' your first name or is it a title you use like 'Ajhan'? We're rather informal here:). Metta, Sarah ======== #96845 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:07 am Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey sukinderpal Hi James, Kevin and all, > > Well, the correct way of development is having panna on the intellectual > > level, which is the main condition for panna on the experiential level. Of > > course, panna arises on the experiential level based only on the right > > conditions, which are not really in our ability to induce. > > James: I just read this and sigh to myself. First, there is no such thing as an "intellectual level" of panna. Panna is not of the nature of the intellect. Any self-perceived, so called, "intellectual level of panna" is really just conceit. Second, something which doesn't exist can't be a condition for something which does exist. In other words, it is impossible to "think" your way to nibbana. The Buddha was enlightened to the Four Noble Truths, so I think that you will agree that everything he taught is an expression of one or more of this. Also "ignorance" has been pointed out as being in relation to whether the 4NTs is known or not. Would you not then say that anything that we `get' from reading the Texts comes down to whether there was some level of right or wrong understanding about the 4NTs? And would this not be at first intellectual? This was true even for someone like Sariputta who became enlightened from hearing a very pithy expression of the 4NTs. He had to have interpreted the meaning of what was heard just before there was direct and deep penetration of a characteristic of reality there and then would he not? I think this is exactly the case with all Savakas, they would all have had to first have pariyatti understanding before patipatti and subsequently, pativedha arose. On the opposite side I believe that there were those who on hearing the Dhamma had "wrong" understanding / interpretation of it. These went away dismissing the Dhamma and following other teachings, or else went by an interpretation which resulted in following some wrong practice / patipatti, but which they believed to be right. I don't wish to discuss whose interpretation of the Teachings is correct, but I think it is evident that "understanding" is always involved when reading the Tipitaka and coming away with some conclusion about what is said. I mean after all aren't we always making statements about `meaning' when quoting parts of the Texts to each other? I have a feeling James that you do not believe in the concept re: the relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, but what of the Suttamaya panna, Cintamaya panna and Bhavanamaya panna relationship? What is your understanding of this, or is it that you dismiss this one as well? Kevin, glad to see you posting, I'm happy with your decision to limit the discussion to only what is taught in the Tipitaka. But as you can see, there are many interpretations of the Texts. Wouldn't you say then that in the end, Mahayana, Theravada, Zen or Vajrayana, all this comes down to `understanding' right or wrong about the 4NTs? And that the perception of Theravada being right as against the Mahayana, this does not necessarily reflects the presence of Right View? So perhaps you're right, rather than bringing in the concept of Mahayana vs. Theravada and who believes what to be right, we should instead go straight to discussing wrong vs. right view! ;-) Metta, Sukin #96846 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:41 am Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha jonoabb Hi Alex > > I understand "jhayati!" (the imperative) to mean "develop samatha and vipassana!". So it comes back again to an understanding of what constitutes that development. > > Jon, it means that one *has* to develop it (jhayati). Thanks for this further elaboration. But it still comes back to the meaning of "development" in the context, surely! ;-)) Jon #96847 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:42 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonoabb Hi Scott > "Verse 53. Those Born Into This World Must Acquire Much Merit > > As from a mass of flowers > many a garland may be made, > so by one born mortal > should many good deeds be done. > > Explanation: The deft maker of garlands takes a variety of flowers. Out of these he creates garlands of different strands and variegated arrangements. In the same way, those who are born into this world should, out of their lives, create good, wholesome, meritorious actions of a vast variety." > > Jon: "...the person who has an eye for developing kusala sees opportunities where others would not, and he/she is thus able to develop a wide range of kusala (instead of, for example, just dana or just certain kinds of wholesome bodily conduct). In terms of the development of the path, this person can discriminate between the different parts of the doctrine, fitting the disparate parts together into a harmonious whole." > > Scott: My opinion - I'd suggest that this 'person' is developed pa~n~naa; the 'eye'sees more and more clearly as bhaavanaa-maaya-pa~n~naa proceeds. Pa~n~naa knows kusala and then kusala develops. The garland is the string of the seven javana moments with pa~n~naa - the seven flowers,the kusala-citta-viithi - which are the kammically advantageous dhammaa. Very nice! I'll remember that explanation with gratitude when I next come across this verse. Jon #96848 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) jonoabb Hi Robert E > I am not a scholar and was not there, so don't know for sure exactly who was the > audience or exactly the significance. But I can say that: > > a/ the fact that he may have had an accomplished audience does *not* logically > lead to the idea that an unaccomplished audience would not likewise benefit from > the practice he described or could not follow the path laid out in anapanasati. Right, but I was not relying on logical deduction. Right from the beginning of the 4 sections that culminate in the description of the attainment of enlightenment, the passage contemplates a person of highly developed understanding. Consider the following: "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; ..." Note the expressions: - setting mindfulness to the fore - Always mindful - he discerns [pajanati = active present finite verb. "knows clearly" Thanks, Alex] These are not references to everyday, conventional mindfulness and knowing, but to the mindfulness and understanding taught by a Buddha. And only mindfulness that has been developed to a high degree can be "set to the fore" or be always present. > b/ Buddha did not state that this path was "difficult arduous and only for the > advanced" as he surely might if he wanted those in the audience to be aware of > who should or shouldn't take it up. Surely, in other suttas he made clear that > he was referring to conditions for arahants, stream-enterers, novices, monks, > householders or whatever. He often made clear who he was addressing or who the > practices he described were meant for. So the fact he did not make any such > indication in the anapanasati sutta suggests to me that he was not directing his > comments to only those of a specific level of attainment. Certainly one cannot > assume so based on what he actually said. There are different ways of indicating who is being addressed (apart from those actually present, of course). One of the main such indicators is when a passage begins with the expression "There is the case where ...". This is like saying "For this kind of person .." In this regard, see the passage from the sutta quoted just above. And later there is the description of the attainment of the special powers (abhinnas), powers attainable only by those who have attained enlightenment with jhana as basis. > It is often described at beginning of suttas who happened to be in attendance, > and not necessarily to say that these are the only ones who can benefit from the > practice at hand. Yes, agreed. > The arahants who collected these teachings in written form > and put them into the canon also, as far as I know, did not give an indication > that anapanasati was "only for those already advanced in both samatha and > vipassana." I have not said that anapanasati was only for those already advanced in both samatha and vipassana. That, as you point out later, would create a "chicken and egg" situation. I was explaining why I thought that the particular attainment described in this sutta namely the attainment of enlightenment with jhana (with breathing as object) as basis was achievable in a given lifetime only by those whose samatha and vipassana were already very highly developed. > My own view is that most who are advanced in those areas got > advanced in them by practicing anapanasati, and so the vicious chicken-egg cycle > of cyclical discussion continues. No vicious cycle here because, as I just said, I wasn't saying that anapanasati was only for those already advanced in both samatha and vipassana. Jon PS Your other point raises different issues, so I'll answer it in a separate message if you don't mind. #96849 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E > I have no objection to the cetasikas, or their significance. What I have a problem with is saying that they "experience" the dhamma in addition to "citta" experiencing the dhamma. How do all these separate experiences coordinate with each other? It makes them into separable elements, rather than part of the same act of consciousness, and gives them each a stronger sense of separate agency [entity] then I believe they should or do have. That is a problem for me and not how I see the five kandhas lining up at each moment. I see citta as the only experiencing element, and the cetasikas as part of what is experienced by citta. This is the point of contention. OK. Thanks for explaining more clearly the point of contention. But I don't see how any of this has to do with wrong view of self (as I think you were suggesting before). > Contact does not occur between the eye-door and the object of vision without consciousness. The question is, does eye-door have its own awareness of object of vision that is then somehow coordinated with the awareness of citta, or is it citta experiencing the object of vision through its contact with the eye-door. I think the latter makes sense, as it leaves one consciousness engaging in an act of awareness through the cetasikas by which it touches the object; the former, which leaves several separate awareness's, is full of trouble as far as I can see. Sorry, but I'm not able to follow the line of thinking here. But if this is an explanation the "makes sense", what is it about the co-experiencing explanation that doesn't "make sense"? > I know I have read support for this view in sutta, but am not a good enough scholar to find a ready reference. OK, I'll let you off the hook this time, since you ask so nicely ;-)) Always stimulating talking to you, Robert. Jon #96850 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:40 am Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy hantun1 Dear Sarah, Connie, Colette and all, Thank you very much for posting SN 7.12 Udaya Sutta: Like Sarah, I also like the words [again and again] [punappuna.m]. Punappuna.m ceva vapanti biija.m, Punappuna.m vassati devaraajaa; Punappuna.m khetta.m kasanti kassakaa, Punappuna.m dha~n~namupeti ra.t.tha.m. Punappuna.m yaacakaa yaacayanti, Punappuna.m daanapatii dadanti; Punappuna.m daanapatii daditvaa, Punappuna.m saggamupenti .thaana.m. Punappuna.m khiiranikaa duhanti, Punappuna.m vaccho upeti maatara.m; Punappuna.m kilamati phandati ca, Punappuna.m gabbhamupeti mando. Punappuna.m jaayati miiyati ca, Punappuna.m sivathika.m haranti; Magga~nca laddhaa apunabbhavaaya, na punappuna.m jaayati bhuuripa~n~no ti. Han: The word [punappuna.m] reminds me Dhammapada verses 153 and 154. 153. Anekajaati sa.msaara.m, sandhaavissa.m anibbisa.m; Gahakaara.m gavesanto, dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m. 154.Gahakaaraka di.t.thosi, puna geha.m na kaahasi; Sabbaa te phaasukaa bhaggaa, gahakuu.ta.m visankhata.m; Visankhaaragata.m citta.m, ta.nhaana.m khayamajjhagaa. English translation by Daw Mya Tin: 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha! 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained. Han: Because the Buddha, in his previous lives, did not see the carpenter ta.nhaa, throughout the entire samsaraa, he had suffered by being re-born again and again [dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m]. How many times [punappuna.m] I will have to suffer, I wonder! Yours truly, Han #96851 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/26/2009 1:04:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes, with regard to the Surangama Sutra: I'd be very interested in anything you have to say about it. ============================= I haven't had the chance to even begin to look at it. But I do have a shortcut to it sitting on my desktop, and after I eventually get to it, I'll send you any comments I might have. With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96852 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:01 pm Subject: Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL... scottduncan2 Dear Sarah and Alex, Regarding: "...Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations(sankhara), so are all conditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not >witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose >characteristic is that of hardness, nor the water element whose >characteristic is that of oozing, nor the fire element whose >characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose >characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the >four great elements, the absence of all derived >materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world >of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own >nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next >said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the >states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), 窶朗or that base consisting of endless space......nor that >base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception窶." Scott: Thanks, Sarah. This is clear to me, and supports what was given before. I think it inevitable that there would be many thoughts about Nibbaana. When influenced by ideas which misunderstand the meaning of characteristic; when ideas about someone who seeks Nibbaana, and someone who finds Nibbaana arise; when influenced by thoughts about the magical, insubstantial nature of Nibbaana as some place; when influenced by thoughts of getting to this place, (in other words, when the whole thing is misconstrued by the modern world of popular 'buddhism') - then all sorts of confusion arises. A: "Final Nibbana at the death of Arahant is the cessation of all the knowing & the known..." Scott: Alex, I think confusion remains for you regarding the difference between the death of the Arahant on the one hand, and descriptions of Nibbaana as the unconditioned element on the other. I'm not sure why the above expressed confusion persists after having this misunderstanding pointed out more than once. Perhaps it is hard for you to understand what it means for Nibbaana to have characteristic described, as in the above, as 'that which is antithetical to all formations(sankhara)'. Perhaps you need to consider the meaning of 'characteristic'. A: "...If Nibbana were only the object of the mind, then it would necessarily be impermanent and conditioned, and would cease with death of the Arahant..." Scott: You misunderstand the difference between object of experience and experience. The texts clearly state that the characteristics of Nibbaana are the antithesis of conditioned dhammaa. I fail to see how you come up with the above. Do you not consider that the arising of the path - the magga-cittaa - has Nibbaana as object? Nibbaana is called the Unconditioned. Nibbaana is said to be 'permanent'. Consciousness which arises to experience Nibbaana falls away immediately. Do you not consider that Nibbaana as an object is to be experienced? It is nowhere said that Nibbaana falls away nor that it arises. The 'death of the Arahant' is simply the final falling away of the five khandhas. The 'arahant' is only a conventional designation. He doesn't die and go to Nibbaana. I'll let you, Sarah, continue this with Alex, should you wish to do so. Sincerely, Scott. #96853 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy - dukkha jati punappuna.m szmicio Dear Han How are you? > Han: Because the Buddha, in his previous lives, did not see the carpenter ta.nhaa, throughout the entire samsaraa, he had suffered by being re-born again and again [dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m]. > How many times [punappuna.m] I will have to suffer, I wonder! L: I like those words: dukkha jati punappuna.m. again nad again dukkha arise. moha and ditthi are so deeply rooted. Here is another good reminder: Mara ask Vajira Bhikhhuni: Kenaaya.m pakato satto, kuva.m sattassa kaarako; Kuva.m satto samuppanno, kuva.m satto nirujjhatiiti. By whom was this living being created? Where is the living being's maker? Where has the living being originated? Where does the living being cease? L: And then Vaijira Bhikhuni said: Ki.m nu sattoti paccesi, maara di.t.thigata.m nu te; Suddhasa"nkhaarapu~njoya.m, nayidha sattupalabbhati. Yathaa hi a"ngasambhaaraa, hoti saddo ratho iti; Eva.m khandhesu santesu, hoti sattoti sammuti [sammati (syaa. ka.m.)]. Dukkhameva hi sambhoti, dukkha.m ti.t.thati veti ca; Naa~n~natra dukkhaa sambhoti, naa~n~na.m dukkhaa nirujjhatiiti. Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view? This is a heap of sheer constructions: Here no being is found. Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates are present, There's the convention 'a being.' It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn05/sn05.010.than.html #96854 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Singular Occupancy - dukkha jati punappuna.m hantun1 Dear Lukas, ﾂ I am fine. How are you? I thank you very much for posting another sutta [SN 5.10 Vajira Sutta] which I like very much. ﾂ In particular, I like [a heap of sheer constructions] [suddhasa"nkhaarapu~ njo], and the last stanza: ﾂ Dukkhameva hi sambhoti, dukkha.m ti.t.thati veti ca; Naa~n~natra dukkhaa sambhoti, naa~n~na.m dukkhaa nirujjhatiiti. ﾂ Thank you very much. Yours truly, Han > Lukas: > Here is another good reminder: > Mara ask Vajira Bhikhhuni窶ｦ窶ｦ窶ｦ. ﾂ #96855 From: westbankj@... Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey farrel.kevin Hello Ken, >> Hi Kevin, >> >> Welcome and thanks from me as well for joining us here and making your presence known. I hope your return to the States has worked out as smoothly as anything ever works out (or doesn't) in samsara..... Welcome and thanks from me as well for joining us here and making your <. . .> ------------------ >(Welcome from me too, Kevin.) Yes, Sarah, thank goodness for having heard about dhammas! Where would we be if we hadn't heard about them? It doesn't bear thinking about. >For a start I would still be caught up in arguments about politics. I would be thinking there were good (kusala) political parties and bad (akusala) political parties. But now that I know there aren't - only dhammas can be kusala or akusala - I can no longer take politics seriously. And I'm glad I can't. >There are no good or bad political parties, political policies, or politicians. No more so than there are good or bad flying-purple-There are no good or bad political parties, political policies, or politi >And what of the kusala and akusala things (dhammas) that really do exist? Can I have attachment for some and aversion for others? How silly would that be? Fleeting namas that come and go disinterestedly (purely by conditions) cannot possibly be worthy of attachment or aversion. >Ultimately the world is not such a bad place after all! :-) >Ken H Thanks for welcoming me. What can I say? That is a great insight. It's great to see people progressing because of their study of dhammas. I don't think we would ever arrive at these insights on our own! Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! P.S. - I hope I got the quoting technique right. Is it okay to double up on the arrows for the original message (>>) and add an arrow (>) to indicate the response before one replies to it as I did above, or am I doing it all wrong? Thanks, Kevin #96856 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:32 pm Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey kenhowardau Hi Kevin, ------------ <. . .> K: > That is a great insight. It's great to see people progressing because of their study of dhammas. I don't think we would ever arrive at these insights on our own! ------------ No, indeed we couldn't. And thanks for your comment, I am very glad you could see what I was trying to say. -------------------------- K: > P.S. - I hope I got the quoting technique right. Is it okay to double up on the arrows for the original message (>>) and add an arrow (>) to indicate the response before one replies to it as I did above, or am I doing it all wrong? --------------------------- Ha, you are a man after my own heart! I am fascinated by these techniques. How best to set out clearly exactly what was said, by whom, when, and in what order etc? I remember years ago Dan (I think it was) tried to persuade everyone to follow the one technique. But he failed. People have their own ideas on setting out, and don't like to be told. Perhaps it's an expression of individuality. :-) But, yes, in most cases I try to follow the way indicated by Yahoo's computer: Anything quoted from the message being replied to is marked with a >. And anything from the message that that message was replying to is marked >>. And so on. Current comments from the current poster have nothing in front of them. And then there are dotted lines (of differing lengths) for further separating old comments from current ones: and there are "snip indicators" (<. . .>). It's quite a science when you get into it. But just go your own way, everyone else does! :-) Ken H #96859 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:23 am Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha ... truth_aerator >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > > I understand "jhayati!" (the imperative) to mean "develop >samatha and vipassana!". So it comes back again to an understanding >of what constitutes that development. > > > > Jon, it means that one *has* to develop it (jhayati). > >Thanks for this further elaboration. But it still comes back to the >meaning of "development" in the context, surely! ;-)) > > Jon > Hi Jon, Whatever the development is, it is an ACTIVE process. One should "take life by the horns" (and achieve Nibbana) rather than being Mara's punching bag, toilet paper and a doormat (which we all were and still are, until all the defilements are gone). Buddha on many cases has talked about really strong effort, and please don't even try to claim that apples are really oranges. "Without ardor, without concern, lazy, with weak persistence, full of sloth & drowsiness, shameless, without respect: This sort of monk is incapable of touching the supreme self-awakening. But whoever is mindful & wise, absorbed in jhana, ardent, concerned, & heedful, cutting the fetter of birth & aging, touches right here & now the unexcelled self-awakening. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-034 But I guess to each, his own. With metta, Alex #96860 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:00 am Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey buddhatrue Hi Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > The Buddha was enlightened to the Four Noble Truths, so I think that you will agree that everything he taught is an expression of one or more of this. James: Yes. Also "ignorance" has been pointed out as being in relation to whether the 4NTs is known or not. > James: Directly known, not intellectually known. You know what the Four Noble Truths are, Sukin, are you now free from ignorance? > Would you not then say that anything that we `get' from reading the Texts comes down to whether there was some level of right or wrong understanding about the 4NTs? And would this not be at first intellectual? James: This intellectual knowing would just be knowing what they are. It would be like knowing something from the encyclopedia- you know it but it makes no difference to your mind, wisdom, or kamma. This was true even for someone like Sariputta who became enlightened from hearing a very pithy expression of the 4NTs. James: Sariputta had been practicing meditation for one week prior to listening to the Buddha's discourse. His mind was concentrated and ripe for him to "get" what the Buddha said. When he heard the teaching, he directly experienced the truth, he didn't just intellectually understand what the Buddha taught. He had to have interpreted the meaning of what was heard just before there was direct and deep penetration of a characteristic of reality there and then would he not? > James: I'm unsure as to what you think "interpreted the meaning" means. If you mean discursive thought, I don't think so. The only type of "thinking" that would have occurred is the automatic decoding of the spoken words into meaningful symbols/ideas. However, there wouldn't have been further discursive thought manipulating those resulting ideas and symbols. Sariputta didn't have to "think about" what the Buddha was teaching, he directly experienced it. > I think this is exactly the case with all Savakas, they would all have had to first have pariyatti understanding before patipatti and subsequently, pativedha arose. On the opposite side I believe that there were those who on hearing the Dhamma had "wrong" understanding / interpretation of it. These went away dismissing the Dhamma and following other teachings, or else went by an interpretation which resulted in following some wrong practice / patipatti, but which they believed to be right. James: Of course one has to begin with "Right View", which is an intellectual understanding of the Dhamma. However, that intellectual understanding, alone, is not a condition for direct understanding unless one follows the Noble Eightfold Path. Just learning about the Dhamma is not a condition for anything. > > I don't wish to discuss whose interpretation of the Teachings is correct, but I think it is evident that "understanding" is always involved when reading the Tipitaka and coming away with some conclusion about what is said. I mean after all aren't we always making statements about `meaning' when quoting parts of the Texts to each other? James: Yes, we discuss intellectual meaning of the texts. A direct understanding of the truth will affect intellectual understanding. I believe that those who practice Buddhist meditation have a greater intellectual and experiential understanding of the texts that those who don't. > > I have a feeling James that you do not believe in the concept re: the relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, but what of the Suttamaya panna, Cintamaya panna and Bhavanamaya panna relationship? What is your understanding of this, or is it that you dismiss this one as well? James: You are being very vague about complex relationships and then assuming that I dismiss them all. If you have a specific question about a specific relationship, then ask it. Otherwise, don't make assumptions. Metta, James #96861 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:25 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) epsteinrob --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > No vicious cycle here because, as I just said, I wasn't saying that anapanasati was only for those already advanced in both samatha and vipassana. So then I am not quite clear on what the message is about who this practice is suitable for. As a side-note putting mindfulness to the fore and always being mindful could be seen as a goal rather than a precondition. I don't suppose that even an advanced meditator can always at every moment put mindfulness to the fore or always be mindful, so it seems more like an instruction such as "concentrate completely on what you are doing." Nobody does concentrate completely, but it gives one the idea of what is generally required. > PS Your other point raises different issues, so I'll answer it in a separate message if you don't mind. I don't mind at all. I love being sub-divided. Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = = = = #96863 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Jon. Repeating message. Yet another demerit for leaving out the greeting. Gee..... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Sorry, but I'm not able to follow the line of thinking here. But if this is an explanation the "makes sense", what is it about the co-experiencing explanation that doesn't "make sense"? I think it's hard to explain further, but basically having more than one "actor" seems to create a stronger sense of entity. It is hard to see how these separate elements can have individual consciousness without becoming "beings" of a sort. > > I know I have read support for this view in sutta, but am not a good enough scholar to find a ready reference. > > OK, I'll let you off the hook this time, since you ask so nicely ;-)) Well that is awfully kind. It will spur me on to be more studious at some point in the future. > Always stimulating talking to you, Robert. > > Jon Thank you. I appreciate the challenging conversations. :-) I can feel many cittas flowing in rapid succession when we exchange these messages. Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = = = = #96864 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh epsteinrob Hi Howard. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 3/26/2009 1:04:43 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@... writes, with regard to the Surangama Sutra: > > I'd be very interested in anything you have to say about it. > ============================= > I haven't had the chance to even begin to look at it. But I do have a > shortcut to it sitting on my desktop, and after I eventually get to it, I'll > send you any comments I might have. I am working on patience right now, so that is fine.... ;-) Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = #96865 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:36 am Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy - dukkha jati punappuna.m szmicio Dear Han I am also fine. Thank you very much. > In particular, I like [a heap of sheer constructions] [suddhasa"nkhaarapu~ njo], and the last stanza: L: Could you explain the meaning of suddhasa"nkhaarapu~ njo to me? > Dukkhameva hi sambhoti, dukkha.m ti.t.thati veti ca; > Naa~n~natra dukkhaa sambhoti, naa~n~na.m dukkhaa nirujjhatiiti. sadhu. dukkha jati punappuna.m My best wishes Lukas #96866 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:39 am Subject: lobha szmicio Dear friends How to reduce lobha? My best wishes Lukas #96867 From: westbankj@... Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] lobha farrel.kevin What causes lobha? >Dear friends >How to reduce lobha? >My best wishes >Lukas #96868 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:52 am Subject: Re: lobha szmicio Dear Kevin moha, not knowing realities as they are. > What causes lobha? > > >Dear friends > > >How to reduce lobha? #96869 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:26 am Subject: Intelligent Invitation! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Realizable here and now in each & every Moment! The Blessed Buddha once said: Overwhelmed & obsessed by desire, anger, & confusion, one aims at one's own ruin, others' ruin, at the ruin of both, and one suffers much mental pain & frustration... If, however, desire, anger, & confusion are eliminated, then one aims neither at one's own ruin, nor at others' ruin, nor at the ruining of both, and one suffers neither any mental pain nor any frustration at all! Hence is Nibbﾄ］a realizable right here & now in this very lifetime, immediate, inviting, intriguing, & intelligible to each intelligence! Exactly in so far as anyone has made real the complete ceasing of all greed, hate, and confusion, just in so far - to exactly that very degree -is Nibbﾄ］a realizable right here & now in this very life, immediate, inviting, instant, interesting, & intelligible to each and every intelligent being... Follow this Golden Middle Way: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Golden_Middle_Way.htm Source: Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 3:55 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samﾄ”ita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Intelligent Invitation! #96870 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:55 am Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy - dukkha jati punappuna.m hantun1 Dear Lukas, > Lukas: Could you explain the meaning of suddhasa"nkhaarapu~njo to me? Han: [a heap of sheer constructions] [suddhasa"nkhaarapu~njo] suddhasa"nkhaarapu~njo = suddha + sa"nkhaara + pu~nja suddha = clean, pure, mere, nothing but here, please take [mere] or [nothing but]. sa"nkhaara has many meanings. In the context of this sutta, taking the most appropriate one among many meanings given in PTS dictionary, it means aggregate of the conditions or essential properties for a given process or result; or, the essentials or elements of anything. Here, the Translator simply used the word [constructions] which I think is a good translation. pu~nja = a heap, pile, mass. Taking all together, [suddhasa"nkhaarapu~njo] means nothing but a heap of constructions. Yours truly, Han #96871 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:10 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (57-60). Sutta 58 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 58: Walshe DN 33.1.10(58) 'Three knowledges: of one's past lives, of the decease and rebirth of beings, of the destruction of the corruptions (pubbenivaasaanussati-~naa.na'm vijjaa, sattaana'm cutupapaate ~naa.na'm vijjaa, aasavaana'm khaye ~naa.na'm vijaa). ---------- N: The first two knowledges, knowledge of one's past lives and knowledge of the decease and rebirth of beings, are higher spiritual powers that can be obtained by those who have developed jhaana and attained mastery in the jhaanas. The third knowledge is the eradication of the cankers (aasavas) by the arahat. We read in the co. as to the first knowledge, that this penetrates darkness, it pierces the gloom that conceals the coming to be of former existences. The subco. states that the former existences are the past khandhas. It pierces moha, ignorance. The second knowledge pierces the gloom that conceals the decease and rebirth of beings. As to the third knowledge, the eradication of the cankers, the co. states that this knowledge pierces the gloom that conceals the four Truths. N: Ignorance is not knowing the four noble Truths. There is ignorance of the dhamma that appears now. Seeing, visible object, hearing or sound arise and fall away; each dhamma that appears falls away and this is dukkha. The Truth of dukkha is not known. There are different degrees of realizing the four noble Truths. The sotaapanna has penetrated them for the first time, but at each subsequent stage of enlightenment the understanding of them is clearer. At the attainment of arahatship all ignorance is eradicated. This reminds us that the four noble Truths are profound and that thoroughly understanding them is most difficult. This takes many lives. ------------- Nina. #96872 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) jonoabb Hi Robert E > c/ If you are correct, then most of the serious practicing Theravadin community > has got it wrong, as in almost everywhere in the world where a Theravadin > monastery or center exists, beginners are instructed in anapansati as the > baseline practice every day, along with reading and studying sutta of course. Well anapanasati as a "baseline practice" is certainly not an idea that finds support in the texts, as far as I'm aware. For a start, there simply is no such thing as a baseline practice. And secondly, the oft-quoted passages from the Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas have little or no application for those seeking to find a baseline in their practice. > In some countries there are stronger traditions of also following abhidhamma and > commentaries, and in some there are not, but in every country in which Theravada > exists, anapansati is practiced as a normal part of the Theravadin lifestyle. > There is nowhere where it is not a part of Theravadin practice except in one or > another specific sub-community. I'm not sure what conclusion you draw from this, but I think our interest should be in the teachings as recorded rather than in the general level of "practice". Consider this: Would a survey of the way that Christianity, Islam or Judaism was generally practised by its followers be of much help in coming to understand the original scriptures of those religions? I think not. > Even in countries where high regard is paid to Abhidhamma and commentaries, most > combine Adhidhamma study with vipassana meditation. > > It is one thing to have a disagreement with other schools of Buddhism which are > really part of an alternate tradition such as the Mahayana schools, but it is > another to be out of step with 90% of one's own sangha. The aim is not to ensure that one is in step with everyone else, but to develop right understanding ;-)) > I see no reason myself > not to combine the kinds of study and understanding of which you approve with > the traditional meditation practices of the Theravadin community, but I know > this is not something that you find reconcilable. I personally don't see any > problem with seeing both as having value. Well it comes down to how the teachings are understood. There'd be no point in practising in a way that is not the way of practice given;-)) > The main problem comes down to believing that any purposeful act, other than > reading and discussing Dhamma, is based on wrong view. You may have forgotten this, but you and I have worked through this one before, and I think you acknowledged that this was not what was being said here. No matter. Happy to discuss again. Let me be quite categoric: it is not said that there's anything "wrong" with purposeful acts other than reading and discussing Dhamma; nor is it said that the purposeful acts of reading and discussing Dhamma are necessarily "right". The development of kusala, including the kusala that is the path, is a matter of the conditioned arising of kusala consciousness; and the conditioning factors for that do not include purposeful acts of any kind. In the case of the development of the path, those factors include: - having regular contact with others who understand the teachings better than oneself - hearing explanations (by such persons) about aspects of the teachings that we have not properly understood; - reflexive consideration on what has been heard and understood, and of how that relates to the present moment. > I don't see any reason > to think that. It seems to be a view that intellectual understanding is the > correct path, and that perceptual discernment, which is actual direct seeing in life, is either wrong or impossible, and that does not seem correct to me. Well obviously correct intellectual understanding of what the Buddha was saying is a prerequisite (without that, the higher levels of understanding could not follow). As regards "direct seeing in life", it depends what you mean. But direct seeing of dhammas is certainly not wrong and neither, I believe, is it impossible. Jon #96873 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:32 am Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha ... jonoabb Hi Alex > Whatever the development is, it is an ACTIVE process. > One should "take life by the horns" (and achieve Nibbana) rather than being Mara's punching bag, toilet paper and a doormat (which we all were and still are, until all the defilements are gone). > > Buddha on many cases has talked about really strong effort, and please don't even try to claim that apples are really oranges. > > "Without ardor, without concern, > lazy, with weak persistence, > full of sloth & drowsiness, > shameless, without respect: > This sort of monk is incapable > of touching the supreme self-awakening. > But whoever is mindful & wise, > absorbed in jhana, > ardent, concerned, & heedful, > cutting the fetter of birth & aging, > touches right here & now > the unexcelled self-awakening. " > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-034 Thanks for the passage, Alex. An interesting choice to illustrate your idea of an ACTIVE process and a life that needs to be taken by the horns. Would you mind explaining where you find either of these notions reflected in the following expressions from the passage: mindful, wise, absorbed in jhana, ardent, concerned, heedful > But I guess to each, his own. Jon (the apples for oranges man) (which reminds me that at my hotel here, I'm known among the staff as the paw paw man) #96874 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:39 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (2) jonoabb Hi Robert E > > No vicious cycle here because, as I just said, I wasn't saying that anapanasati was only for those already advanced in both samatha and vipassana. > > So then I am not quite clear on what the message is about who this practice is suitable for. > 末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末 Jon: OK, let me explain. The arising of anapanasati in one who might be called a relative beginner is one thing; the attaining of enlightenment, with jhana as basis, by one who is already skilled in anapanasati and satipatthana (i.e., what is being described in the sutta) is quite another. I'm not saying (have never said) that there's any reason why your ordinary Dhamma Joe/Jacky could not experience moments of kusala tranquility with breath as object (= anapanasati, one of the 40 objects of samatha). But he/she would not get much help in understanding what that was all about by reading the Anapanasati Sutta, because it's pitched way beyond his/her present capability. Hoping that explains better my perspective. 末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末 > Rob: As a side-note putting mindfulness to the fore and always being mindful could be seen as a goal rather than a precondition. I don't suppose that even an advanced meditator can always at every moment put mindfulness to the fore or always be mindful, so it seems more like an instruction such as "concentrate completely on what you are doing." Nobody does concentrate completely, but it gives one the idea of what is generally required. 末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末 Jon: Briefly, I tend not to agree. We read about the enlightenment factors being developed to the level of "faculties" and "powers", and I suspect that at these levels mindfulness can be "put to the fore". > 末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末 > > PS Your other point raises different issues, so I'll answer it in a separate >> message if you don't mind. > > I don't mind at all. I love being sub-divided. > 末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末末 Jon: ;-)) Consider it a testament to the challenge your posts present, in that they contain more than can be digested in a single sitting ;-)) Jon #96875 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E > I think it's hard to explain further, but basically having more than one "actor" > seems to create a stronger sense of entity. This is surely a matter of your spin on what I said, rather than anything directly said by me ;-)). I certainly was not suggesting little "actors" (yes, it's been suggested before ...). As regards "entities", I'd say there can be that idea without there necessarily being an idea of "self", as long as the entities are understood to be conditioned and of momentary presence. (But I'm sure there's a definition of "entity" out there that would contradict that, too ;-)) > It is hard to see how these separate elements can have individual consciousness without > becoming "beings" of a sort. Nobody is suggesting anything like "individual consciousness" in regard to dhammas. That is a notion that I'm hearing here for the first time. In the classification of dhammas as elements (dhatus) in the suttas, citta and cetasikas are classified as separate that is to say, distinct elements. They are separate because each has a different function. They experience the same object, because by definition we are talking about the dhammas that experience an object, and there is only 1 object at a time. But in any event, this has nothing to do with wrong view of self (miccha ditthi), which pertains to the way presently arising dhammas such as seeing and visible object are taken to be other than what they are. > > Always stimulating talking to you, Robert. > > Thank you. I appreciate the challenging conversations. :-) > I can feel many cittas flowing in rapid succession when we exchange these messages. Yes, "challenging" was a term that came to mind with me also. And your "many cittas flowing in rapid succession" is a more graphic way of saying my pedestrian "stimulating";-)) Jon #96876 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/27/2009 1:32:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, epsteinrob@... writes: > I haven't had the chance to even begin to look at it. But I do have a > shortcut to it sitting on my desktop, and after I eventually get to it, I'll > send you any comments I might have. I am working on patience right now, so that is fine.... ;-) =============================== ;-)) With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96877 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Robert) - In a message dated 3/27/2009 5:31:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: The development of kusala, including the kusala that is the path, is a matter of the conditioned arising of kusala consciousness; and the conditioning factors for that do not include purposeful acts of any kind. ============================ My comment in brief to this is simply "Omigod!" With metta, Howard (From AN 2.19) /"Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'"/ #96878 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:57 am Subject: Re: CMA and leaf from Bodhi Tree szmicio Hi Jon We live in the world of nimitta. Taking shadows for 'ourselves', for world. ditthi is so strong. It makes us belive in lasting world. There is only present moment, but we are so forgetful of the realities. What is the characteristic of nama now? What is the characteristic of rupa now? ditthi is nama. ditthi is conditioned. What is the characteristic of ditthi? My best wishes Lukas #96879 From: "szmicio" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:18 pm Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy - dukkha jati punappuna.m szmicio Dear Han Thank you very much for your kind explanations. I've prepared some other reminders about jati-dukkha from Saccavibhanga. I'll try to copy it later on, if you dont mind. > Taking all together, [suddhasa"nkhaarapu~njo] means nothing but a heap of constructions. L: I am also thinking about Mara's words: ‘‘Kenaaya.m pakato satto, kuva.m sattassa kaarako; Kuva.m satto samuppanno, kuva.m satto nirujjhatii’’ti. He was the best questioner ever. His words remind me about my own life. How often I take this fleeting world for lasting? How often I take it for mine? How often I take it for pleasant? How often I just think about it? How many opinions I have. I am not diffrent then Mara. What type of person Mara was? Was he a bad deva? My best wishes Lukas #96880 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Singular Occupancy sarahprocter... Dear Han, Thank you very much for your helpful and informative comments and for adding the Pali and Dhp verse. I'd like to discuss a little further with you, Lukas and others, but it'll have to be over the weekend. So this is just a quick thank you first. --- On Thu, 26/3/09, han tun wrote: >Like Sarah, I also like the words [again and again] [punappuna.m] . Metta, Sarah ======= #96881 From: westbankj@... Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lobha farrel.kevin >Dear Kevin >moha, not knowing realities as they are. >> What causes lobha? >> >Dear friends >> >How to reduce lobha? Hi Lukas, So if lobha arises based on conditions, can we really control it? When I look at a beautiful sight, I can't decide to be enchanted or pleased by it, it just happens. Likewise, if you see a sight that is displeasing, there is no choosing to have aversion or not, there is automatically aversion. Kevin #96883 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:39 pm Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha ... truth_aerator > "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > Whatever the development is, it is an ACTIVE process. > > One should "take life by the horns" (and achieve Nibbana) rather >than being Mara's punching bag, toilet paper and a doormat (which we >all were and still are, until all the defilements are gone). > > > > Buddha on many cases has talked about really strong effort, and >please don't even try to claim that apples are really oranges. > > > > "Without ardor, without concern, > > lazy, with weak persistence, > > full of sloth & drowsiness, > > shameless, without respect: > > This sort of monk is incapable > > of touching the supreme self-awakening. > > But whoever is mindful & wise, > > absorbed in jhana, > > ardent, concerned, & heedful, > > cutting the fetter of birth & aging, > > touches right here & now > > the unexcelled self-awakening. " > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-034 > > Thanks for the passage, Alex. An interesting choice to illustrate your idea of an ACTIVE process and a life that needs to be taken by the horns. Would you mind explaining where you find either of these notions reflected in the following expressions from the passage: > mindful, > wise, > absorbed in jhana, > ardent, > concerned, > heedful > > > But I guess to each, his own. > > Jon > (the apples for oranges man) > (which reminds me that at my hotel here, I'm known among the staff >as the paw paw man) > Dear Jon , For example in Satipatthana sutta we have this line for 4 satipatthanas. Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kaye kayanupassi viharati atapi sampajano satima vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam. "Here, oh monks, a monk contemplates the body in the body, abides Ardent (strenuous), thoughtful, careful and fit to remove covetousness & depression toward the world." - Mine translation ATAPI = adj. ardent, strenous. I believe ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates Atapi as Ardent. And another quote: "Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html#turban2 With metta, Alex #96884 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:46 pm Subject: Re: lobha scottduncan2 Dear Kevin and Lukas, Regarding: K: "...When I look at a beautiful sight, I can't decide to be enchanted or pleased by it, it just happens..." Scott: Consider Dhammasa"nganii, XII, Kilesa Gocchaka, Cluster of Dukas Relating to Defilements, (1) Kilesa Duka, (ii), pp. 633-634, U Kyaw Khine, trans.: "1236. Of those (ten defilements), what is greed? There are: attachment, strong attachment, fawning, compliance, delight, intense delight, strong attachment of the mind, longing, infatuation, being completely overwhelmed by greed, greed, wanting everything, clinging, mire of desire, seduction (towards new existences), wile, leading beings to ills and sufferings of exitences, causing beings to arise in the round of rebirths, binding beings to worthless endeavour, pervading desire for sense-objects, endeavouring to attain sense-objects, a pleasant companion in every existence, hankering after, leading to existences, a jungle, a thick jungle, intimate relationship, lust favourable regard, entanglement in various sense-objects. "Craving for sense-objects, having craving, being full of craving, craving for attractive objects, craving for pleasant sound, craving for pleasant odour, craving for pleasant taste, craving for tangible objects craving for gain, craving for wealth, craving for offspring, craving for life. "Asserting one's right, repeatedly asserting one's right, strongly asserting one's right, assertion of one's right, making an assertion of one's right, assertiveness of one's right. "Excessive greed for sense-objects, having excessive greed for sense-objects, being excited with desire (like a dog wagging its tail), longing for pleasant objects, passion for improper objects (such as incestuous longing), inordinate greed, liking an object, having liking for an object, longing for an object, fondness for an object, intense longing for an object. "Craving for sense pleasures, craving for existence, craving for non-existence, craving for existence in the Fine Material Sphere, craving for existence in the Non-Material Sphere, craving for cessation of existence, craving for visible objects, craving for sound, craving for odour, craving for taste, craving for tangible object, craving for mind object. "The whirlpool (of existences), the yoke (of existences), the bond (of existences), clinging, obstruction (to meritorious dhammaa), hindrance, concealing (the true dhamma), binding (beings to ills and sufferings of existence, impurities, defilements that have not been completely dispelled, upsurge of greed, entwining like a creeper, desiring all kinds of objects, root cause of ills and sufferings of existence, cause of ills and sufferings of existence, source of ills and sufferings of existence, snare of Maara, fish-hook of Maara, domain of Maara, river of craving, net of craving, leash of craving, the ocean of craving, covetousness, greed, the root cause of demeritoriousness. "This is called greed." Sincerely, Scott. #96885 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:15 am Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy - dukkha jati punappuna.m hantun1 Dear Lukas (and Sarah), > Lukas: > What type of person Mara was? > Was he a bad deva? Han: I think you know Maara as well as I do. Anyway, I will share with you what I know. Maara can be studied as a person (i.e. as a deity), and also as personification of evil and passions, of the totality of worldly existence, and of death. Ven Nyanatiloka, in his book, Buddhist Dictionary, mentioned about a fivefold Maara (pa~nca-maara): 1. Maara as a deity (devaputta-maara), 2. the Maara of defilements (kilesa-maara), 3. the Maara of the aggregates (khandha-maara), 4. the Maara of the kamma-formations (kamma-maara), and 5. Maara as death (maccu-maara). In this connection, Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote to Rahula, in one of the DSG messages, about the five kinds of Maara. He wrote: Quote: [As Nina points out, the Pali commentaries, drawing together passages from the suttas, speak of five kinds of Mara: Mara as the defilements (kilesa-mara), Mara as karmic formations (abhisankhara-mara), Mara as an evil deity (Mara-devaputta), Mara as the khandhas (khandha-mara), and Mara as death (marana-mara). It is said that the Buddha and the arahants defeat the first three Maras with their attainment of enlightenment; however, they must endure the other two Maras until they attain the nibbana element without residue, i.e., until they pass away. Thus, in so far as they have eradicated clinging, they have defeated the Mara of defilements in relation to the five aggregates. But they still must undergo the troubles imposed by the residual five aggregates: illness, bodily discomfort, hunger and thirst, etc., and the final event of physical death. In this sense they are still subject to the other two Maras. These, however, cause them no mental defilements: no distress, aversion, worry, fear, etc.] End Quote. With regard to Maara as a person, I will quote again Ven Nyanatiloka. Quote: [Maara is regarded as the deity ruling over the highest heaven of the sensuous sphere (kaamaavacara), that of the paranimmitavasavatti-devas, the deities wielding power over the creations of others. According to tradition, when the Bodhisatta was seated under the Bodhi-tree, Maara tried in vain to obstruct his attainment of Enlightenment, first by frightening him through his hosts of demons, etc., and then by his 3 daughters of allurements. This episode is called war of Maara (maara-yuddha). For 7 years Maara had followed the Buddha, looking for any weakness in him; that is, 6 years before the Enlightenment and one year after it (Sn. v. 446). He also tried to induce the Buddha to pass away into Parinibbaana without proclaiming the Dhamma, and also when the time for the Parinibbaana had come, he urged the Buddha on. But the Buddha acted on his own insight in both cases. See D. 16.] End Quote. I also come across an interesting article: The Buddha's Encounters with Mara the Tempter: Their Representation in Literature and Art, by Ananda W.P. Guruge, which I want to share with you. Please click on the following. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/guruge/wheel419.html Yours truly, Han #96886 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:16 am Subject: Re: lobha glenjohnann Hi Scott, Lukas and Kevin Well, Scott, that quote pretty much covers the territory for lobha! Kevin, good to see you on line. Sounds as if you are settling in back in the US - hope it is all going well. Was very good meeting you and being in discussion in Bangkok. Ann > Scott: Consider Dhammasa"nganii, XII, Kilesa Gocchaka, Cluster of Dukas Relating to Defilements, (1) Kilesa Duka, (ii), pp. 633-634, U Kyaw Khine, trans.: > > "1236. Of those (ten defilements), what is greed? There are: attachment, strong attachment, fawning, compliance, delight, intense delight, strong attachment of the mind, longing, infatuation, being completely overwhelmed by greed, greed, wanting everything, clinging, mire of desire, seduction (towards new existences), wile, leading beings to ills and sufferings of exitences, causing beings to arise in the round of rebirths, binding beings to worthless endeavour, pervading desire for sense-objects, endeavouring to attain sense-objects, a pleasant companion in every existence, hankering after, leading to existences, a jungle, a thick jungle, intimate relationship, lust favourable regard, entanglement in various sense-objects. > > #96887 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:26 am Subject: Blazing & Bright Release! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Release of Mind by All Embracing Kindness! This was spoken by the Blessed Buddha, the Perfectly Holy One... Thus have I heard him saying it: Whatever, Bhikkhus and Friends, there are here of worldly things & merit making, all these are not worth 1/16 of the mental release & liberation of the mind reached through All-Embracing Kindness... The release of mind & the liberation of the heart by all-embracing kindness radiates, emanates and shines, far surpassing it all... Just as the light from all the stars is not 1/16th of the moonlight, but the luminous light of the moon, radiating, beaming and shining, surpasses them all, even & exactly so; whatever there are of simple worldly and meritorious things, all these are not worth one 1/16th of the mental deliverance of the heart by All-Embracing Kindness... The release of mind by all-embracing kindness radiates, beams, sparkles and shines, far surpassing it all... Just as in autumn, in the last month of the rainy season, on a clear, cloudless day the sun rises on the horizon & dispels all darkness of the entire surrounding space, bright and brilliant, even & exactly so: Whatever there are of worldly, meritorious, admirable, & attractive things, all these summed up are not worth even one 1/16 of the release of mind by All-Embracing Kindness! The release of mind, liberating the heart, by All-Embracing Kindness radiates, dazzles and shines, far surpassing them all... Gotama Buddha gives the teaching on Universal All-Embracing Kindness: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Metta.htm PS: Note the Buddha's radiance! <...> All-Embracing, Universal & Infinite Kindness dazzles & shines...! Source Text: The Itivuttaka 27: Thus what it Said: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404214 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.1.024-027.irel.html Have a nice All-Embracing Kind day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samﾄ”ita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Blazing & Bright is release by Friendliness! #96888 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi Howard > The development of kusala, including the kusala that is the path, is a > matter of the conditioned arising of kusala consciousness; and the conditioning > factors for that do not include purposeful acts of any kind. > ============================ > My comment in brief to this is simply "Omigod!" Thanks for the comment. Nicely succinct, but a little ambiguous. Do you by any chance mean "Omigod" as in "Well I'll be ... So that's what Jon's been saying all these years" ;-)). Just a clarification of my original statement (apparent in its context but not from the quote in isolation, perhaps). Purposeful acts are being performed continuously (except when in a deep sleep), and this is not a denial of that. Whether the present consciousness is kusala or akusala, purposeful acts are in that sense involved. What I was referring to were specific purposeful acts prescribed as being conditions for the arising/occurrence of kusala. > (From AN 2.19) > > /"Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is > unskillful. ... But because this abandoning of what is > unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what > is unskillful.' > "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is > skillful. ... But because this development of what is skillful is > conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'"/ Thanks also for the sutta quote. The key parts are: "Develop what is skillful" (kusala) and Abandon what is unskilfull." (akusala). I understand the developing referred to here to be moments of actual arising of kusala, and the abandoning to be moments of actual restraint from akusala (itself a form of kusala in fact), in both cases with panna. I do not understand them to be the doing of something purposeful with a view to having more kusala or less akusala. I believe we all experience in daily life moments of kusala that arise without any input from us: acts of courtesy, consideration or politeness, sharing things with others, helping another who is having a tough time, etc. (they may not be the "biggies", but they are kusala nonetheless). And this experience does I think confirm that it's a matter of previous accumulations and the occurring of appropriate conditions, rather than of any deliberate action on our part. Any thoughts on that (other than Omigod ;-))? Jon #96889 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:35 am Subject: Re: CMA and leaf from Bodhi Tree jonoabb Hi Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Hi Jon > > We live in the world of nimitta. Taking shadows for 'ourselves', for world. > > ditthi is so strong. It makes us belive in lasting world. > > There is only present moment, but we are so forgetful of the realities. > > What is the characteristic of nama now? > > What is the characteristic of rupa now? I think the first question has to be: "What is the characteristic of dhammas now?" Anything that has a characteristic of its own, that is to say, that can be directly experienced, is a dhamma. (If this sounds circular, it's probably because it is ;-)) Those dhammas that experience an object are one kind of dhamma (i.e., nama-dhamma). Those dhammas that do not experience an object are another kind of dhamma (rupa-dhamma). > ditthi is nama. ditthi is conditioned. What is the characteristic of ditthi? Being a nama, ditthi has the characteristic of experiencing an object. Being the nama that is ditthi, it has the characteristic of (wrongly) perceiving/knowing things to be a certain way. Jon #96890 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:36 am Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha ... jonoabb Hi Alex > For example in Satipatthana sutta we have this line for 4 satipatthanas. Hmm, are you given up on the passage that you quoted earlier? ;-)) > Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kaye kayanupassi viharati atapi sampajano satima vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam. > > "Here, oh monks, a monk contemplates the body in the body, abides > Ardent (strenuous), thoughtful, careful and fit to remove covetousness & depression toward the world." - Mine translation > > ATAPI = adj. ardent, strenous. > > I believe ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates Atapi as Ardent. Yes, atapi is commonly translated as ardent. It refers to the mental factor of viriya (effort). So which parts of this passage do you see as necessarily implying the idea of an ACTIVE process and a life that needs to be taken by the horns? > And another quote: > > "Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html#turban2 What do you understand here by the reference to "put[ting] forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities?" Jon #96891 From: sachin bahade Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:04 am Subject: ANAPANSATI detail sach_bahade please tell, how we know I am doing the ANAPANSATI in right way. How i know that i am observing the natural breath. as it is. \ BE HAPPY........... #96892 From: "ajschrier" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:18 pm Subject: Re: sila and the first stage of holiness ajschrier Hi Nina and Sarah a.o., Thank you for your elaborate answers. These sutta's are cristal clear. I will do some reading and thinking befor I can reply to all your remarks. As to killing is killing; in the handbook on the Four Noble Truths (by Ledi Sayadaw) five conditions are mentioned for a deed to be a pannatipata. "1 the being needs to be alive. 2 there needs to be the knowledge that it is alive. 3 There must be the intention to cause death 4 a deed must be perfomed that causes death. 5 There must be death as a result of the above mentioned deed. If al these five conditions are met, the first sila is broken and should be taken again." In the case of my insect, she was still alive (then), but not in a good shape at all. The reason why I bring this up in the first place is that I come from a Christian background in which morality for me was a bit of an angst ridden thing. When dealing with sila in Buddhism this unhelpful mindset easily props up again. I therefore take courage in the idea that sila is not essential, (although verry helpful). And of course sila understood in the proper buddhist way is a pleasure. In Nina's book on Buddhism in daily live (Dutch edition by Boeddhayana uitgeverij) I read that it is good to take refuge in the buddha, it is better to undertake the pancasila, it is even better to have a glimpse of metta and it is even more fruitfull to experience impermanence, even when it is only for the time of a snap of the finger. By the way my name actualy is Arjan. I know it sounds odd in Thai and even in Pali. But it is not an uncommon name in Holland. All the best. #96893 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/28/2009 4:34:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > The development of kusala, including the kusala that is the path, is a > matter of the conditioned arising of kusala consciousness; and the conditioning > factors for that do not include purposeful acts of any kind. > ============================ > My comment in brief to this is simply "Omigod!" Thanks for the comment. Nicely succinct, but a little ambiguous. Do you by any chance mean "Omigod" as in "Well I'll be ... So that's what Jon's been saying all these years" ;-)). ------------------------------------------- LOLOL! More like "Well, I'll be damned! That's about as radical a "No can do nuthin!" perspective as I can imagine! I'm quite aware that this is (part of) what you've been saying, but I haven't been aware of the extremity of it. (Of course, I also see it as "dead wrong" and not what the Buddha taught. ;-)) ------------------------------------------ Just a clarification of my original statement (apparent in its context but not from the quote in isolation, perhaps). Purposeful acts are being performed continuously (except when in a deep sleep), and this is not a denial of that. Whether the present consciousness is kusala or akusala, purposeful acts are in that sense involved. What I was referring to were specific purposeful acts prescribed as being conditions for the arising/occurrence of kusala. -------------------------------------------- I find this unclear, Jon. I don't understand what you are saying exactly. You had written that the conditioning factors for the development of kusala do not include purposeful acts of any kind. That seemed rather "absolute" to me. -------------------------------------------- > (From AN 2.19) > > /"Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is > unskillful. ... But because this abandoning of what is > unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what > is unskillful.' > "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is > skillful. ... But because this development of what is skillful is > conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'"/ Thanks also for the sutta quote. The key parts are: "Develop what is skillful" (kusala) and Abandon what is unskilfull." (akusala). I understand the developing referred to here to be moments of actual arising of kusala, and the abandoning to be moments of actual restraint from akusala (itself a form of kusala in fact), in both cases with panna. I do not understand them to be the doing of something purposeful with a view to having more kusala or less akusala. ------------------------------------------ "Abandon what is unskillful" and "Develop what is skillful" are clear instances of the Buddha instructing his followers to willfully engage in specific course of action, and the main point of this teaching by the Buddha is that he would not instruct his followers to do this were it not possible to do so. Your interpretation just doesn't fit the quoted material. ------------------------------------------ I believe we all experience in daily life moments of kusala that arise without any input from us: acts of courtesy, consideration or politeness, sharing things with others, helping another who is having a tough time, etc. (they may not be the "biggies", but they are kusala nonetheless). And this experience does I think confirm that it's a matter of previous accumulations and the occurring of appropriate conditions, rather than of any deliberate action on our part. Any thoughts on that (other than Omigod ;-))? --------------------------------------------- That together with the teaching by the Buddha that I quoted really said it all. (But I've superfluously said a bit more here. ;-) --------------------------------------------- Jon ============================== With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96894 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Fri, 27/3/09, Alex wrote: >Whatever the development is, it is an ACTIVE process. One should "take life by the horns" (and achieve Nibbana) rather than be Mara's punching bag, toilet paper and a doormat (which we all were and still are, until all the defilements are gone). >But I guess to each, his own. ... S: I'm just reminded by this of Sariputta's 'own' with regard to being a doormat or duster in AN 9s, 11, taken here from B.Bodhi窶冱 窶廸umerical Discourses of the Buddha", under 窶牢ariputta窶冱 Lion窶冱 Roar窶, p231. 窶廱ust as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean, dung, urine, spittle, pus and blood, yet for all that the earth has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will. However, one in whom mindfulness directed on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow monk and leave without an apology." <...> 窶廰ord, just as a duster wipes over things clean and unclean, things soiled with dung, urine, pus and blood, yet for all that the duster has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like a duster.....apology." ***** Nina also quoted before from the the Vinaya (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) about how a monk should approach the Sangha: "...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as though it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and skilled about sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without encroaching on (the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping newly ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory fashion, nor about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma himself or should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan silence... The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as though it were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet." S: Lots more on learning to live like a doormat in 'Useful Posts' under 'Dustrag, being a Nobody'. Metta, Sarah ======== #96895 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sila and the first stage of holiness sarahprocter... Hi Arjan, (Great name, thx for explaining!) --- On Sat, 28/3/09, ajschrier wrote: >Thank you for your elaborate answers. These sutta's are cristal clear. I will do some reading and thinking befor I can reply to all your remarks. ... S: No hurry - just whatever suits you. ... >As to killing is killing; in the handbook on the Four Noble Truths (by Ledi Sayadaw) five conditions are mentioned for a deed to be a pannatipata. "1 the being needs to be alive. 2 there needs to be the knowledge that it is alive. 3 There must be the intention to cause death 4 a deed must be perfomed that causes death. 5 There must be death as a result of the above mentioned deed. If al these five conditions are met, the first sila is broken and should be taken again." In the case of my insect, she was still alive (then), but not in a good shape at all. ... S: The conditions mentioned above are given in the texts. In the case of your insect that annoyed you, of course it's still an akusala intention, but not the completed action of killing. The texts also mention factors that contribute to the degree of akusala involved including the size of the animal/insect. Lots more under 'killing' in 'Useful Posts' in the files. Really though, what's important always comes back to the present moment. What's the reality now? Any intention to harm the insect is long since gone and now it's the thinking, seeing or hearing that can be known. ... >The reason why I bring this up in the first place is that I come from a Christian background in which morality for me was a bit of an angst ridden thing. When dealing with sila in Buddhism this unhelpful mindset easily props up again. ... S: Yes, again, it's the present reality that can be known and all that exists. If there is regret or angst now, that's the reality. None of these dhammas belong to a self and any such regret is quite useless, but can be known as a dhamma. ... >I therefore take courage in the idea that sila is not essential, (although verry helpful). And of course sila understood in the proper buddhist way is a pleasure. ... S: The highest sila is at moments of right understanding. So if there is right understanding now of the angst or seeing or visible object, there is sila. It's not a question of needing 'to take sila again', but of developing undestanding of present dhammas. ... >In Nina's book on Buddhism in daily live (Dutch edition by Boeddhayana uitgeverij) I read that it is good to take refuge in the buddha, it is better to undertake the pancasila, it is even better to have a glimpse of metta and it is even more fruitfull to experience impermanence, even when it is only for the time of a snap of the finger. ... S: Yes, we read about this in the Anathapindika Sutta in AN. The Buddha begins by elaborating on the great kinds of dana as wholesome, as Anathapindika understood so well, but how these are nothing to a finger-snap or metta and that this in turn is nothing to the understanding of impermanence. It builds on the listener's understanding, indicating how in the end, it's only the insight into dhammas as being anicca, dukkha and anatta that is the path. Other kinds of kusala don't lead to an end of suffering. Thanks again for joining us and for your helpful contributions and excellent questions and comments. Metta, Sarah ======== #96896 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:00 pm Subject: Re: lobha scottduncan2 Dear Ann, Regarding: A: "Well, Scott, that quote pretty much covers the territory for lobha!" Scott: A veritable thesaurus, Ann! I found this to be food for thought: "Asserting one's right, repeatedly asserting one's right, strongly asserting one's right, assertion of one's right, making an assertion of one's right, assertiveness of one's right..." Scott: I'm like, 'so this thing we do everyday when we stand up for ourselves in various situations - just lobha? Are we to just lay back and let it all happen to us?' I found the Paa.li, just to see, thinking that my initial interpretation and reaction were probably grounded in self-view (as usual). Subject to correction from real Paa.li scholars, I believe the term is: ...loluppa.m loluppaayanaa loluppaayitatta.m... Scott: PTS PED has: "Loluppa (nt.) [abstr. fr. lolupa] greediness, covetousness, self -- indulgence, desire; in the language of the Abhidhamma often syn. with jappaa or ta.nhaa. At DhsA 365 loluppa is treated as an adj. & expld at 'punappuna visaye lumpati aaka.d.dhatii ti,' i. e. one who tears again & again at the object..." Scott: With this last I'm like, 'that's more like it - of course we're dealing with the function and process of the impersonal course of dhammaa and their objects, I can keep standing up for myself if needs be - don't have to just lie back and take it.' Atthasaalinii has: "'Self-indulgent' means a repeated plundering, hauling along in the fields of sense..." Scott: I like that, poetic - 'hauling along in the fields of sense.' So 'asserting one's right' is 'self-indulgence' by another tranlation. The PTS Dhammasa"nga.nii has loluppa.m as 'self-indulgence' (p. 257). So then one is able to contemplate how one's initial understanding of the conventional meaning of things is mostly often wrong; how the Abhidhamma is so clarifying; the commentaries as well; how it is always with thoughts of self that one grapples with meaning. Sincerely, Scott. #96897 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Singular Occupancy sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, As I started to say last night, I was very glad you added the Pali and introduced 'punappuna.m' (again and again) to me. I was also very happy that you indicated the same phrase is used in the Dhp verse: --- On Thu, 26/3/09, han tun wrote: >Han: The word [punappuna.m] reminds me Dhammapada verses 153 and 154. 153. Anekajaati sa.msaara.m, sandhaavissa. m anibbisa.m; Gahakaara.m gavesanto, dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m. <...> English translation by Daw Mya Tin: 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha! <...> >Han: Because the Buddha, in his previous lives, did not see the carpenter ta.nhaa, throughout the entire samsaraa, he had suffered by being re-born again and again [dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m] . How many times [punappuna.m] I will have to suffer, I wonder! ... S: Yes, until one becomes an arahat, punappunna.m! This is why the Buddha stressed that just developing siila, daana and samatha (even to the highest jhaana) is not enough, because they're all part of the brick-laying or house-building. Only vipassanaa leads out. The verses the Buddha spoke (which you quoted) on becoming fully enlightened are very impressive. Please let me know if you come across punappunna.m anywhere else. Great reminders, thx to you and Connie. Metta, Sarah ======== #96898 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:36 pm Subject: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m szmicio Hello Connie How are you? Vibh. states: Duvidhena ruupakkhandho – atthi ruupa.m upaadaa, atthi ruupa.m no upaadaa [nupaadaa (sii. ka.)]. Atthi ruupa.m upaadinna.m, atthi ruupa.m anupaadinna.m. Atthi ruupa.m upaadinnupaadaaniya.m, atthi ruupa.m anupaadinnupaadaaniya.m. Atthi ruupa.m sanidassana.m, atthi ruupa.m anidassana.m. Atthi ruupa.m sappa.tigha.m, atthi ruupa.m appa.tigha.m. Atthi ruupa.m indriya.m, atthi ruupa.m na indriya.m. Atthi ruupa.m mahaabhuuta.m, atthi ruupa.m na mahaabhuuta.m. Atthi ruupa.m vi~n~natti, atthi ruupa.m na vi~n~natti. Atthi ruupa.m cittasamu.t.thaana.m, atthi ruupa.m na cittasamu.t.thaana.m. Atthi ruupa.m cittasahabhu, atthi ruupa.m na cittasahabhu. Atthi ruupa.m cittaanuparivatti, atthi ruupa.m na cittaanuparivatti. Atthi ruupa.m ajjhattika.m, atthi ruupa.m baahira.m. Atthi ruupa.m o.laarika.m, atthi ruupa.m sukhuma.m. Atthi ruupa.m duure, atthi ruupa.m santike…pe… atthi ruupa.m kaba.liikaaro aahaaro, atthi ruupa.m na kaba.liikaaro aahaaro. Eva.m duvidhena ruupakkhandho. The last paragraph hasn't been posted yet. That's the place we've finished. ----------------------- Vibh: There is material quality that accompanies consiousness. (atthi ruupa.m cittaanuparivatti). There is material quality that does not accompany consiousness. (atthi ruupa.m na cittaanuparivatti) There is material quality that is internal (atthi ruupa.m ajjhattika.m) There is material quality that is external. (atthi ruupa.m baahira.m) There is material quality that is gross. (atthi ruupa.m o.laarika.m) There is material quality that is subtle. (atthi ruupa.m sukhuma.m) There is material quality that is distant. (atthi ruupa.m duure) There is material quality that is proximate. (atthi ruupa.m santike) There is material quality that is nutrient factor of food (atthi ruupa.m kaba.liikaaro aahaaro) There is material quality that is not nutrient factor of food (atthi ruupa.m na kaba.liikaaro aahaaro) Thus is the aggregate of material quality by way of twofold division. (eva.m duvidhena ruupakkhandho.) ---------------------------- L: Different classifications have its purpose. They help us to understand. Reading and considering Dhamma is a condition for pa~n~na to arise. Here is the end of the twofold division: 'eva.m duvidhena ruupakkhandho'. ------- Vibh: 'There is material quality that is nutrient factor of food (atthi ruupa.m kaba.liikaaro aahaaro) There is material quality that is not nutrient factor of food (atthi ruupa.m na kaba.liikaaro aahaaro)' L: What is the function of word 'kaba.liikaaro' here? Or maybe should I write: kaba.liikaaraahaaro as one word? Then it means just material food. If ruupa is aahaaro or kaba.liikaaraahaaro, what does it mean? Is there anything in Nina's Ruupas about it? My best wishes Lukas #96899 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:38 pm Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy - dukkha jati punappuna.m szmicio Dear Han Thank you again for your help. I didn't know this fivefold classification before. > I also come across an interesting article: The Buddha's Encounters with Mara the Tempter: Their Representation in Literature and Art, by Ananda W.P. Guruge, which I want to share with you. Please click on the following. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/guruge/wheel419.html > > Yours truly, > Han > #96900 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: lobha szmicio Dear Kevin Thanks for your help. > So if lobha arises based on conditions, can we really control it? L: No, we cannot. But there can be thinking with dosa on account of lobha. But each moment is good to learn that all is just dhatu that performs its own function. There is no Self anywhere, but we still belive it exist. > When I look at a beautiful sight, I can't decide to be enchanted or pleased > by it, it just happens. L: Yes, true. > Likewise, if you see a sight that is displeasing, > there is no choosing to have aversion or not, there is automatically aversion. L: Usually it happens. I think there is some kind of rest because of knowing it. That all is conditioned, out of control, not ours. I think we have to be reminded of citta more and more. My best wishes Lukas #96901 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 28-mrt-2009, om 15:36 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > If ruupa is aahaaro or kaba.liikaaraahaaro, what does it mean? > Is there anything in Nina's Ruupas about it? ------- N:Ch 2 of my book: Nutrition is one of the four factors which produce rpas of the body. As we have seen, the other factors are kamma, citta and temperature. In the unborn being in the mother痴 womb, groups of rpa produced by nutrition arise as soon as the nutritive essence present in food taken by its mother pervades its body (Visuddhimagga XVII, 194). From then on nutrition keeps on producing rpas and sustaining the rpas of the body throughout life. We can notice that nutrition produces rpas when good or bad food affects the body in different ways. Bad food may cause the skin to be ugly, whereas the taking of vitamins for example may cause skin and hair to look healthy. ------------ from Ch 9: Nutritive essence present in food that has been swallowed 1), produces rpas and it supports and sustains the body. Rpas produced by nutrition arise only in the body of living beings. Nutrition produces pure octads and also groups of rpa with lightness, plasticity and wieldiness. Nutritive essense is one of the inseparable rpas present in each group of rpas. Nutritive essence in nutriment-originated octads originates a further octad with nutritive essence and thus, it links up the occurrences of several octads. The 天isuddhimagga (XX, 37) states that nutriment taken on one day can thus sustain the body for as long as seven days 2). --------- footnotes: 1) See Ch 2. The substance of morsel-made food (kaba.link蚌o 乕蚌o) contains nutritive essence, oj. When food has been swallowed the nutritive essence pervades the body and supports it. 2) Also nutriment smeared on the body originates materiality, according to the 天isuddhimagga. Some creams, for example, nourish the skin. ***** Nina. #96902 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:11 pm Subject: Re: lobha szmicio Dear Scott Your quote from Dhammasangani was very helpful. I am greateful to The Blessed One that he explained Dhamma in such detailed way. > "Asserting one's right, repeatedly asserting one's right, strongly asserting one's right, assertion of one's right, making an assertion of one's right, assertiveness of one's right..." L: sadhu. > Scott: I'm like, 'so this thing we do everyday when we stand up for ourselves in various situations - just lobha? L: In my life I like to think about pa~n~na as just dhatu. Dhatu that understands. So only pa~n~na can know whether something is lobha or not. And it's conditioned, we cannot do anything to make panna arises. It's not ours, it's just dhatu. We cannot control dhatus. They are not ours. How often we remember about dhatus? How often we take everything for 'me', 'mine'? Just couple of thoughts I wanted to share. My best wishes Lukas #96903 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ANAPANSATI detail nilovg Dear Sachin, welcome here. Op 28-mrt-2009, om 11:04 heeft sachin bahade het volgende geschreven: > please tell, how we know I am doing the ANAPANSATI in right way. > How i know that i am observing the natural breath. as it is. ------- N: First we have to be clear about it whether this is a matter of doing or observing. This is a basic principle and if we are not clear about it there cannot be anapanasati. Understanding can be developed of the different phenomena that arise: mental phenomena or nama and physical phenomena or rupa. Breath is rupa, it does not know anything. It appears as hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. But it is very, very subtle. One may take for breath what is just air, not breath. Breath is conditioned by citta. We should have more understanding of citta. Akusala citta can condition breath or kusala citta. Kusala citta with sati and understanding, pa~n~naa, can learn what the characteristic of breath is. It can learn that whatever occurs is just dhamma. Nama and rupa cannot be manipulated, they arise because of conditions. This is a long story and we need to discuss about this at length before things can become clearer. If we are not clear, we go the wrong way, the way of lobha. From Scott's post about lobha you can see how dangerous this is. It depends on conditions whether there can be awareness of breath and when. Listening, considering, more understanding of nama and rupa are indispensable here. It is of no use just trying to concentrate on breath if there is no understanding of nama and rupa. We take all realities for self, this belief is so deeply rooted, but we do not even realize this. Thus, first we should talk more on nama and rupa. Perhaps you have more questions on this? Nina. #96904 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lobha nilovg Dear Lukas and Sachin, Op 28-mrt-2009, om 16:11 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > L: In my life I like to think about pa~n~na as just dhatu. Dhatu > that understands. So only pa~n~na can know whether something is > lobha or not. And it's conditioned, we cannot do anything to make > panna arises. It's not ours, it's just dhatu. We cannot control > dhatus. They are not ours. How often we remember about dhatus? How > often we take everything for 'me', 'mine'? ------ N: Yes, these are also my thoughts and this may be of interest to Sachin re our discussion on anapanasati. So basic to remember that there is no 'I' who can do anything, but we forget all the time. If we do not remember we go the wrong way. Nina. #96905 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all, >, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Fri, 27/3/09, Alex wrote: > >Whatever the development is, it is an ACTIVE process. >One should "take life by the horns" (and achieve Nibbana) rather >than be Mara's punching bag, toilet paper and a doormat (which we >all were and still are, until all the defilements are gone). > > >But I guess to each, his own. > ... > S: I'm just reminded by this of Sariputta's 'own' with regard to >being a doormat or duster in AN 9s, 11, taken here from B.Bodhi窶冱 >窶廸umerical Discourses of the Buddha", under 窶牢ariputta窶冱 Lion窶冱 >Roar窶, p231. > When an Arahant, then one is not a *Mara*'s doormat. Until holy paths and fruits, one is a slave to Mara and any temporary equanimity (even through Jhana or sati) is not a permanent removal of taints or of bondage. Anyhow, what I've meant is that there must be removal of all desire, craving, clinging and ignorance. Not 'tolerance'! If there is desire, then there is bondage to desire (Mara). When there is Desire, undesirable things can and will happen. When there is no desire, undesirable things cannot happen. Buddha's path is to gradually remove all desire and lust so one is not mentally tied to the 5 aggregates which are ultimately not controllable and cannot be in line with one's wishes or desires. With metta, Alex #96906 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:21 pm Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha ... truth_aerator Hi Jon, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > For example in Satipatthana sutta we have this line for 4 >satipatthanas. > > Hmm, are you given up on the passage that you quoted earlier? ;-)) No. I am showing another example of ATAPI instance in the "most important teaching of the Buddha" the sacred Satipatthana sutta. > > Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu kaye kayanupassi viharati atapi sampajano satima vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam. > > > > "Here, oh monks, a monk contemplates the body in the body, abides > > Ardent (strenuous), thoughtful, careful and fit to remove covetousness & depression toward the world." - Mine translation > > > > ATAPI = adj. ardent, strenous. > > > > I believe ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates Atapi as Ardent. > > Yes, atapi is commonly translated as ardent. It refers to the mental factor of viriya (effort). > > So which parts of this passage do you see as necessarily implying the idea of an ACTIVE process and a life that needs to be taken by the horns? > That part. > > And another quote: > > > > "Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html#turban2 > > What do you understand here by the reference to "put[ting] forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities?" > > Jon > Exactly that. "Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html effort = effort. To claim that effort is not effort is eel-wriggling of a terrible kind. With metta, Alex #96907 From: "connie" Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:33 pm Subject: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m nichiconn Hi, Lukas. I'm looking forward to meeting Sarah via Skype. Hope you're doing well. So glad you got CMA! ------- Vibh: 'There is material quality that is nutrient factor of food (atthi ruupa.m kaba.liikaaro aahaaro) There is material quality that is not nutrient factor of food (atthi ruupa.m na kaba.liikaaro aahaaro)' L: What is the function of word 'kaba.liikaaro' here? Or maybe should I write: kaba.liikaaraahaaro as one word? Then it means just material food. If ruupa is aahaaro or kaba.liikaaraahaaro, what does it mean? c: PaliWords gives kabalinkaara: lumping. kabala: a lump; a morsel; a mouthful. But yeah, just to distinguish the material from the mental nutriments. peace, connie #96908 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:31 pm Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am glad that you appreciate my contribution. > Sarah: The verses the Buddha spoke (which you quoted) on becoming fully enlightened are very impressive. > Please let me know if you come across punappunna.m anywhere else. > Great reminders, thx to you and Connie. Han: At the moment I can think of only this one. I will come back to you if I can find any other reference. with best regards, Han #96909 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:09 am Subject: Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m szmicio Dear Connie Vibhanga continues: Tividhena ruupakkhandho ; ya.m ta.m ruupa.m ajjhattika.m ta.m upaadaa, ya.m ta.m ruupa.m baahira.m ta.m atthi upaadaa, atthi no upaadaa. Ya.m ta.m ruupa.m ajjhattika.m ta.m upaadinna.m, ya.m ta.m ruupa.m baahira.m ta.m atthi upaadinna.m, atthi anupaadinna.m. Ya.m ta.m ruupa.m ajjhattika.m ta.m upaadinnupaadaaniya.m, ya.m ta.m ruupa.m baahira.m ta.m atthi upaadinnupaadaaniya.m, atthi anupaadinnupaadaaniya.m pe ya.m ta.m ruupa.m ajjhattika.m ta.m na kaba.liikaaro aahaaro, ya.m ta.m ruupa.m baahira.m ta.m atthi kaba.liikaaro aahaaro, atthi na kaba.liikaaro aahaaro. Eva.m tividhena ruupakkhandho. The aggregate of material quality by way of threefold division (Tividhena ruupakkhandho): That material quality which is internal is derived (ya.m ta.m ruupa.m ajjhattika.m ta.m upaadaa) that material quality which is external is derived (ya.m ta.m ruupa.m baahira.m ta.m atthi upaadaa) is no derived (atthi no upaadaa) - That material quality which is internal is grasped (Ya.m ta.m ruupa.m ajjhattika.m ta.m upaadinna.m) that material quality which is external is grasped (ya.m ta.m ruupa.m baahira.m ta.m atthi upaadinna.m) is not grasped (atthi anupaadinna.m) - That material quality which is internal is grasped, is the object of attachements (Ya.m ta.m ruupa.m ajjhattika.m ta.m upaadinnupaadaaniya.m) that material quality which is external is grasped, is the object of attachements (ya.m ta.m ruupa.m baahira.m ta.m atthi upaadinnupaadaaniya.m) is not grasped, is the object of attachements. (atthi anupaadinnupaadaaniya.m) ------------------------------- 1)Vibh: 'That material quality which is internal is derived (ya.m ta.m ruupa.m ajjhattika.m ta.m upaadaa)' L: So here upaadaa means upaadaayarupa? All 24 derived ruupas? Which of them are internal? ---- 2)Vibh: 'is no derived (atthi no upaadaa)' L: So here it means mahaabhuutaaruupa. All four. ----- 3)Vibh: 'That material quality which is internal is grasped (Ya.m ta.m ruupa.m ajjhattika.m ta.m upaadinna.m)' L: So here upaadinna refers to kammaja-ruupas. But I've got some doubts. Upaadinna here is more likely to means 'grasped'. 'That material quality which is internal is grasped by attachments' - It has more sense to me. Or if Blessed One really means here kammaja-ruupas, this kammaja and non-kammaja ruupas classification has to be really important. Sometimes I wonder whether Buddha made kammaja distincion and didn't do cittaja distinction here as another clasification. ---- 4)Vibh: 'That material quality which is internal is grasped, is the object of attachements (Ya.m ta.m ruupa.m ajjhattika.m ta.m upaadinnupaadaaniya.m)' is grasped is the object of atachements. or is kamma-produced ruupa is the object of atachements upaadinna - grasped upaadaaniya - connected with grasping But then: Vibh: 'is not grasped, is the object of attachements. (atthi anupaadinnupaadaaniya.m)' L: Here is a problem: Vibh: 'is not grasped is the object of attachments.' Can something be not grasped and be the object of attachements? I know we discussed it before, but it's still not clear enough to me. And it's very important point. My best wishes Lukas #96910 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:24 am Subject: The 5 Abilities! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What are the Five Mental Abilities making one Safe? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these five abilities. What five? The ability of Faith (saddhﾄ ) The ability of Energy (viriya ) The ability of Awareness (sati ) The ability of Concentration (samﾄ‥hi ) The ability of Understanding (paﾃｱﾃｱa ) When, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple understands as they really are the gratification, the danger, and the escape regarding these five abilities, then he is called a Noble Disciple, who is a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the lower worlds, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his assured future destination! <...> Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 193] 48 The Mental Abilities: 2 Stream-Enterer.. Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samﾄ”ita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The 5 Abilities! #96911 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi Howard > Purposeful acts are being performed continuously (except when in a deep > sleep), and this is not a denial of that. Whether the present consciousness is > kusala or akusala, purposeful acts are in that sense involved. > > What I was referring to were specific purposeful acts prescribed as being > conditions for the arising/occurrence of kusala. > -------------------------------------------- > I find this unclear, Jon. I don't understand what you are saying > exactly. You had written that the conditioning factors for the development of kusala > do not include purposeful acts of any kind. That seemed rather "absolute" to > me. > -------------------------------------------- I'm glad you asked this, as I'd like to try again to explain this point. Purposeful acts are being done all the time. Most acts of dana, for example, involve a purposeful act. Yet dana is a kusala citta, not a purposeful act (an "act of giving" without any kusala would not be dana). Likewise, the conditions for the arising of that kusala citta are: previous accumulations for dana, a recipient, and something useful to give, none of which are purposeful acts. Sure, there is going to be a purposeful act involved, but it's not that act that is the kusala consciousness, or the conditions for that kusala consciousness. Hoping this is clearer. > I believe we all experience in daily life moments of kusala that arise > without any input from us: acts of courtesy, consideration or politeness, sharing > things with others, helping another who is having a tough time, etc. (they > may not be the "biggies", but they are kusala nonetheless). And this > experience does I think confirm that it's a matter of previous accumulations and the > occurring of appropriate conditions, rather than of any deliberate action on > our part. > > Any thoughts on that (other than Omigod ;-))? > --------------------------------------------- > That together with the teaching by the Buddha that I quoted really said > it all. (But I've superfluously said a bit more here. ;-) > --------------------------------------------- Thanks, but I'm not clear from that remark whether you agree or not with my comments about kusala arising spontaneously without any input from the "person" involved. Jon #96912 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Reach the highest levels of virtue! sarahprocter... Dear Jonathan, Firstly, thank you for answering my questions about translations of Dhp and so on. I'm enjoying your series and discussions with Jon. I would just like to pick up on a couple of comments you wrote there (in #96710) --- On Sat, 21/3/09, jonathancoppola wrote: >15. Finally, becoming sighted in a world of blindness and rising above the limitations of the world is not an easy task. All of us have to find our way individually, for as the Buddha points out, "No one can purify another". ... S: Well said. ... >Superior inner strength, perseverance, and effort are necessary, as well as self admonishment. Having love, forgiveness, and compassion for ourselves is also quintessential in our times of self defeat. ... S: I'm not so sure about this. The aim of the teachings, as I understand it, is to eradicate all idea of self and to understand that there are only conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. So, there's no use in 'self admonishment' and I think that what passes for "love, forgiveness, and compassion for ourselves" (at any time), are actually just ways of thinking with attachment about ourselves, finding ourselves important. The characteristics of these fine qualities are the opposite of this - the love, forgiveness and compassion for others, taking care of others' concerns rather than our own, for a change. ... >In my own practice, I have continued to find self defeat while attempting to refrain from ANY thought, word or deed that will ultimately cause myself or others suffering. ... S: Again, rather than thinking in terms of 'self defeat', I think there can be more understanding of different dhammas, knowing them for what they are with detachment. There is no self that performs such deeds or is defeated or wise. ... >Instead of giving up, I continue to contemplate the deep significance of the Dhamma, the compassion of the Buddha, and the merits of the supreme spiritual community, the Sangha. Having done this, I am inspired to try again and again. >Reach the highest levels of virtue! ... S: Yes, the highest levels of virtue without any idea of self doing anything. Thanks for helpfing me reflect further. I'll be glad to hear any more of your comments on these comments and/or on the next set of verses. Metta, Sarah ======= #96913 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:44 am Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha ... jonoabb Hi Alex > > Hmm, are you given up on the passage that you quoted earlier? ;-)) > > No. I am showing another example of ATAPI instance in the "most important teaching of the Buddha" the sacred Satipatthana sutta. > ---------------------- Jon: Well then are you giving up on it as supporting your notions of an ACTIVE process and a life that needs to be taken by the horns? ;-)) > ---------------------- > "Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html > > effort = effort. > > To claim that effort is not effort is eel-wriggling of a terrible kind. > ---------------------- Jon: I think you see words like "ardent" and "effort" as having their ordinary, conventional meanings (and anyone who disagrees with you as "eel-wriggling";-)). Do you think that, in the context of the development of insight, this is necessarily the case? As regards the simile of the head on fire, I would take the purpose of this to be the *urgency of the situation* rather than the nature of the effort to be put forth. Jon #96914 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:46 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Threes (57-60), no. 59, 60 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 59: Walshe: DN 33.1.10(59) 'Three abidings: deva-abiding, Brahmaa-abiding, the Ariyan abiding. (dibbo vihaaro, Brahmaa-vihaaro, ariyo vihaaro.) ------- N: The first abiding is the eight jhaana attainments. The subco explains that these are abidings with distinction, undefiled. N: As to the brahmaavihaaras, these are the development of mettaa, compassion, sympathetic joy and even-mindedness. The subco states that these are excellent abidings. As to the third abiding, the ariyan abiding, this is the attainment of fruition, phalasamaapatti. People who have developed jhaana and attained enlightenment with lokuttara citta accompanied by jhaanafactors of one of the stages of jhaana, can have phalacittas (fruition consciousness experiencing nibbaana) arising again after the process of enlightenment is finished. Phalacittas can arise in succession without bhavangacittas in between for a period lasting as long as one has determined. The subco: a peaceful state can be reached after what opposes it has been destroyed. This is the ariyan way, the ariyan abiding. Pali co: Vihaaresu a.t.tha samaapattiyo dibbo vihaaro. Catasso appama~n~naa brahmaa vihaaro. Phalasamaapatti ariyo vihaaro. ------------- sutta 60: Olds [3.60] Three wonders: the wonders of magic power, the wonders of mindreading, the wonders of teaching ((iddhi-paa.tihaariya'm, aadesanaa-paa.tihaariya'm, anusaasani- paa.tihaariya'm).) ------- N: The Co refers to the Kevaddhasutta (DN 11, 3.) As to the first miracle, this includes magical powers such as diving into the earth or walking on water. As to the second miracle, by this someone can make manifest the feelings and thoughts of others. The third miracle is the miracle of teaching and this is the greatest miracle. -------- N: The Buddha taught us the way leading to the end of the cycle, and that is the development of understanding of realities. This kind of pa~n~naa can eradicate defilements stage by stage. Before hearing the Dhamma we were ignorant of what seeing is, what thinking, attachment or aversion are. Gradually we can learn that what we take for person or the things of this world are only fleeting phenomena that are non- self. We can learn that whatever appears is a conditioned dhamma. The Buddha痴 teaching is the greatest miracle because this can change people痴 life. -------- N: The co adds to the concluding verses of the Threes that with regard to these sixty suttas of the Threes, the Thera taught in concord while he discussed sevenhundred questions. This is the end of the commentary to the Threes. ************************************************************************ ***** 荘Ime kho, aavuso鋳tiaadiisu vuttanayeneva yojetabba.m. Iti samasa.t.thiyaa tikaana.m vasena asiitisatapa~nhe kathento thero saamaggirasa.m dassesiiti. Tikava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. --------- Nina. #96915 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:52 am Subject: Re: Make a garland of many good deeds! jonoabb Hi Jonathan I had a chance today to read through at leisure the posts from the last few days, and would like to respond to this one of yours (and some posts of other friends too) > -------------------- > I would go further to state simply that the purification of all defilements of one's character is not possible without ALL levels of kusala, including vispassan, and samathaa... > -------------------- Thanks for this comment, which I agree with. I would only add that, to my understanding, the purification of defilements, in the sense of their final eradication, is a function of insight (vipassana) rather than tranquility (samatha). While samatha can suppress the hindrances (i.e., certain defilements), that suppression is a temporary one, just for the duration of the jhana consciousness, and in any event does not include the defilement of wrong view, which must be eradicated in order to attain stream entry. > -------------------- > ...and that it is possible to use these techniques (good and excellent deeds themselves) throughout the day...just not while driving! > Unless being the most aware driver was the focus of the meditation! > > ...I have used mindfulness of the breath for stress reduction while working in very busy restaurants for example... > -------------------- Stress reduction is one of those conventional goals that are sometimes confused with the goals of the teachings. If you think about it for a moment, it's not one of the wholesome deeds mentioned by the Buddha ;-)) > -------------------- > I have another dhamma friend who adds that not only is meditation practice a "good deed" it is also "the highest of all deeds, not only for ourselves, but for generations to come..." He gives non specific references to other Pali Canon suttas, however, I am not familiar enough to site them... > -------------------- I think it would depend on what your friend means by "meditation". Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. Please do continue! Jon #96916 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi Howard > I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was > sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then 窶" quite secluded from > sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities 窶" I entered & remained in > the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by > directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then > following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' ... > -------------------------------------------- > I note, in particular, the Buddha's unequivocal assertion in speaking of > jhana: "That is the path to awakening." TI don't think the words "That is the path to awakening." can be described as the unequivocal assertion of a Buddha. First, they were the words (or thoughts, or realisation) of a *Buddha-to-be*. Secondly, and perhaps more to the point, they are not given as an assertion of a general truth, as applicable to all, but as a narrative of his own path to enlightenment (the very final stages of that path). In my view, these words are to be understood in the context of the fact that all Buddhas attain enlightenment with jhana as basis (as that is the is the highest kind of attainment of enlightenment). Jon #96917 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey jonoabb Hi James (and Kevin) > ----------------- > James: I just read this and sigh to myself. First, there is no such thing as an "intellectual level" of panna. Panna is not of the nature of the intellect. Any self-perceived, so called, "intellectual level of panna" is really just conceit. > ----------------- In a post to Sukin a short time later you say: "Of course one has to begin with "Right View", which is an intellectual understanding of the Dhamma." Are you having a bet both ways on this one? ;-)) Jon #96918 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E > -------------------- > It is a problem in the first place to keep citta from appearing to be a 'recieving entity' that is aware of dhamma. To give this power to each mental factor as well certainly increases the appearance of aware beings arising and disappearing, in my view. ... > How are they aware? What form do they take to be aware of something? Citta is formless is it not? It is like a clear window, not a thing. Once you have multiple experiencing elements, you have a series of forms, do you not? I am sorry if this does not communicate well. ... > What does it mean to 'be an element?' Does it have a form during its duration before it falls away? Or only a function? And if a function, what does this function work through, the citta? Or independently? > -------------------- Jon: An interesting series of questions. Would you mind explaining a bit about what you understand the term "dhammas", as used by the Buddha in the suttas, to mean. That might help us understand better where you're coming from. Thanks. > -------------------- > I think there is a problem when descriptions of absence or understanding or turned into tangible properties in their own right. Anatta and anicca are not objects themselves, they are realizations about objects. One sees that a dhamma is subject to anicca, but there is no "anicca" to be found in a dhamma. It's a realization that it is impermanent. Impermanence is not itself a thing. > -------------------- Jon: Anicca, dukkha and anatta are known as the 3 characteristics, i.e., characteristics *of dhammas*. Jon #96919 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> sarahprocter... Dear Alex, Like Scott, I think you are confusing nibbana with the khandhas still remaining as object of lokuttara cittas and khandha-parinibbana at the death of an arahat when there are no more conditions for samsara to continue. --- On Tue, 24/3/09, Alex wrote: >Nibbana is understood in the same way as "all that arises, ceases" is understood. It is understanding of the invariable principle and not some clairvoyant super 7th sense perception. ... S: Nibbana as the object of lokuttara cittas is not an 'invariable principle', but a reality, the unconditioned dhamma or element which is directly realised by panna at such a time. .... >Everything that is felt is including in suffering Because in Nibbana there is nothing felt, it is ultimate ease. ... S: Vedana cetasika (feeling) arises with every single citta. It is a universal cetasika. Therefore, it also arises with the lokuttara cittas which experience nibbana. If you are talking about khandha parinibbana now, then of course there is no more feeling because there is no more consciousness after the cuti citta of the arahat. ... >How can absense of "rupa, vedana,sanna, sankhara, vinnana" be felt? It can't! ... S: No one's ever said it could. ... >Only by seeing the principle and through wise inference. ... S: This is thinking - nothing to do with the direct experience or realisation of nibbana. Nibbaana literally means 'extinction', so we need to be very clear about what kind of extinction we are talking about - extinction of kilesa (defilements) at different stages or extinction of the khandhas. Metta, Sarah ======= #96920 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E > ----------------------- > I see citta as the only experiencing element, and the cetasikas as part of what is experienced by citta. This is the point of contention. > ----------------------- Jon: So dhammas were to be classified according to whether they experience an object or not, you would put cetasikas into the "not" basket. Is that correct? > ----------------------- > Contact does not occur between the eye-door and the object of vision without consciousness. > ----------------------- Jon: I'd be interested to know basis for this assertion (my understanding of the texts is otherwise: visible object impinges first on eye-sense, with eye-consciousness arising after that) > ----------------------- The question is, does eye-door have its own awareness of object of vision that is then somehow coordinated with the awareness of citta, or is it citta experiencing the object of vision through its contact with the eye-door. I think the latter makes sense, as it leaves one consciousness engaging in an act of awareness through the cetasikas by which it touches the object; the former, which leaves several separate awarenesses, is full of trouble as far as I can see. > I know I have read support for this view in sutta, but am not a good enough scholar to find a ready reference. > ----------------------- Jon: Perhaps you read something whose author *claimed* it was based on a sutta ;-)). Do you by any chance remember the source? Jon #96921 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:09 am Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey jonoabb Hi James > 末末末末末末末末末末末 I believe that those who practice Buddhist meditation have a greater intellectual and experiential understanding of the texts that those who don't. > 末末末末末末末末末末末 An interesting comment. Would you mind saying a few words about what you see as being the connection between "Buddhist meditation" and the development of understanding at its different levels? Thanks. Jon #96922 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappointed in Ven Thich Nhat Hanh jonoabb Hi Howard > I am working on patience right now, so that is fine.... ;-) > =============================== > ;-)) I too enjoyed the irony in Rob E's comment. But isn't there the same irony in the idea of "working on" energy, metta or understanding? Jon #96923 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E Typo correction: > Jon: So dhammas were to be classified according to whether they experience an object or not, you would put cetasikas into the "not" basket. Is that correct? Should of course be: So if dhammas ... (Blame the Hong Kong Rugby 7s which the locals (here in Fiji) are going crazy over as Fiji is about to take the field for the finals) Jon #96924 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sun, 29/3/09, Alex wrote: >When an Arahant, then one is not a *Mara*'s doormat. Until holy paths and fruits, one is a slave to Mara and any temporary equanimity (even through Jhana or sati) is not a permanent removal of taints or of bondage. >Anyhow, what I've meant is that there must be removal of all desire, craving, clinging and ignorance. Not 'tolerance'! .... S: Yes, all agreed. However, the way is that of the eightfold path, not of self 'taking life by the horns'. .... >If there is desire, then there is bondage to desire (Mara). >When there is Desire, undesirable things can and will happen. When there is no desire, undesirable things cannot happen. >Buddha's path is to gradually remove all desire and lust so one is not mentally tied to the 5 aggregates which are ultimately not controllable and cannot be in line with one's wishes or desires. ... S: For once we're in agreement. Where we usually disagree is what is meant by 'Buddha's path', but I'll leave that to your further discussions with Jon! Metta, Sarah ======= #96925 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:02 pm Subject: Bring joy, fulfillment, happiness, and delight! jonathancoppola Dhammapada entry #203/29/2009 Dear friendsBelow please find a part of a series of postings that will include entries from the Dhammapada. Along with these will be my comments. I encourage you to reflect on these entries, and post comments of your own here or at: jonathancoppola@... A copy of all the postings is available upon request. The source is: The Dhammapada, Translated by Venerable Ananda Maitraya, Parallex Press, 1995. 5 The Fool 5. A fool may associate with a wise man throughout his life And remain untouched by his wisdom, Even as a spoon cannot taste the flavor of the soup. 6. On the other hand, an aware man, in a moment's meeting, Can learn from a wise man, Even as the tongue tastes the flavor of the soup. 7. The unwise man, lacking in understanding, Behaves as if he were his own worst enemy, Committing evil deeds That produce bitter fruit. 8. It unwise to do things that bring regret And require repentance, To cause suffering for oneself And a weeping and tearful face. 9. It is wise to do things which do not require repentance But bring joy and fulfillment, Happiness and delight. Comments: 5-6. The wisdom of the Buddha is simple, pure and sublime. It is insight into or awareness of that which is the true nature of ourselves and all that surrounds us. We cause ourselves unnecessary suffering when we desire that which we think is pleasing, yet is really detrimental to ourselves and others. If we are to be freed from the "round of rebirths" (the cycle of addictive views and behaviors) that is endless and needless suffering, we begin by practicing morality, the foundation upon which we build our wisdom. Practicing loving kindness toward all without exception or condition, and emulating the enlightened qualities of the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, further develops this wisdom. In addition, being aware of the interconnected, transient, temporal, and impermanent nature of everything outside of ourselves (and ourselves) increases our development of insight. Finally, we meditate, completely stilling our thoughts, abiding in serenity, not just during our sitting period, but throughout our day as well. This is the path of self-enlightenment, yet we may find a person(s) that can assist us along the way. When we do, we need to utilize this rare opportunity to emulate the qualities of wisdom that they posses. When we do, we are able to "taste" (share in) the benefits of the life that this wise person(s) has led. 7-8. When we lack wisdom, insight, mindfulness, and awareness, we have only ourselves in mind when we think, speak, and act. We are caught in maras net, and have swallowed the baited hook of temptation that is the world around us. These selfish, self-centered desires produce the bitter fruits of regret (grief) and begin the endless cycle of addictive behavior that causes ourselves and others stress and anxiety that is preventable. 9. The solution is simple...think, say, and do only that which brings joy, fulfillment, happiness, and delight to OTHERS. If we are able to live our lives in this way, what else might WE, OURSELVES, experience other than supreme bliss, joy, contentment, happiness...NIBBANA! Bring joy, fulfillment, happiness, and delight! With Metta, Jonathan #96926 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/29/2009 5:42:15 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > Purposeful acts are being performed continuously (except when in a deep > sleep), and this is not a denial of that. Whether the present consciousness is > kusala or akusala, purposeful acts are in that sense involved. > > What I was referring to were specific purposeful acts prescribed as being > conditions for the arising/occurrence of kusala. > -------------------------------------------- > I find this unclear, Jon. I don't understand what you are saying > exactly. You had written that the conditioning factors for the development of kusala > do not include purposeful acts of any kind. That seemed rather "absolute" to > me. > -------------------------------------------- I'm glad you asked this, as I'd like to try again to explain this point. Purposeful acts are being done all the time. Most acts of dana, for example, involve a purposeful act. Yet dana is a kusala citta, not a purposeful act (an "act of giving" without any kusala would not be dana). ------------------------------------------- Dana as generosity is purely mental, but the actions following in its wake are not solely mental. ------------------------------------------ Likewise, the conditions for the arising of that kusala citta are: previous accumulations for dana, a recipient, and something useful to give, none of which are purposeful acts. Sure, there is going to be a purposeful act involved, but it's not that act that is the kusala consciousness, or the conditions for that kusala consciousness. Hoping this is clearer. -------------------------------------------- You are distinguishing the mental factor from the actions it motivates. Okay. -------------------------------------------- > I believe we all experience in daily life moments of kusala that arise > without any input from us: acts of courtesy, consideration or politeness, sharing > things with others, helping another who is having a tough time, etc. (they > may not be the "biggies", but they are kusala nonetheless). And this > experience does I think confirm that it's a matter of previous accumulations and the > occurring of appropriate conditions, rather than of any deliberate action on > our part. > > Any thoughts on that (other than Omigod ;-))? > --------------------------------------------- > That together with the teaching by the Buddha that I quoted really said > it all. (But I've superfluously said a bit more here. ;-) > --------------------------------------------- Thanks, but I'm not clear from that remark whether you agree or not with my comments about kusala arising spontaneously without any input from the "person" involved. -------------------------------------------------- There is no person involved, except as 'person' refers to a stream of namas and rupas acting in concert. I'm not keen on the "spontaneously" though. Wholesome namas arise due to causes and conditions, among which are useful thinking and willing and guarding the senses and so on. --------------------------------------------------- Jon =========================== With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96927 From: Sukinder Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey sukinderpal Hi James, ========= > James: Directly known, not intellectually known. You know what the Four Noble Truths are, Sukin, are you now free from ignorance? S: When you later said: > James: Of course one has to begin with "Right View", which is an intellectual understanding of the Dhamma. However, that intellectual understanding, alone, is not a condition for direct understanding unless one follows the Noble Eightfold Path. Just learning about the Dhamma is not a condition for anything. S: The impression I get is that you *do* indentify a necessary stage prior to the direct understanding. What exactly this is and how it acts as condition if any, for further development of understanding is perhaps where we both have very different ideas. From what I gather, you give 叢ariyatti a role little beyond an initial reflective acceptance of the Dhamma but which must include seeing the importance of taking up some kind of formal meditation practice. Is this correct? If so, would it be correct to then conclude that the deciding factor is 杜editation such that those who see its value, as Suan also suggested recently, are ones who actually got it right 訴ntellectually ;-), and those who don稚, have not? My question here is, what Dhamma principle is this idea based on? But note also, that those of us who do not agree with the idea of meditation do however make and very much stress the distinction between intellectual and direct understanding and have never suggested that pariyatti can lead straight to pativedha (realization) without the need for much development at patipatti. As I said in another thread, this idea re: the difference between 奏heory and practice or 祖onceptual and direct experience is one which almost any person appreciates. One does not need to hear the Dhamma to arrive at such conclusion. However without Right Understanding got from hearing the Dhamma, one is likely to go about thinking over and trying to actualize this idea with Self / Wrong View. This seems to be reflected in how the concept of 僧editation attracts so many and not only those who have decided upon the Buddha痴 Teachings. The idea of being mindful of the breath for example, is one which exists in other religions as well. What is it then that a Buddhist sees, which say, a Hindu doesn稚, when hearing about 僧editation / concentration on the breath? Some might say that he has heard about nama and rupa and made the reality / concept distinction. But then would this not be a matter of understanding? Which of course I would question any way, if the answer is in the affirmative. Because if there was the understanding of the reality / concept distinction, one which takes as reference the present moment experience, the concept of 僧editation would have been looked at quite differently. If nama and rupa has been appreciated to any extent, Anatta and the principle about conditionality would have been applied when thinking about that same concept. It is this 疎pplication which I see as reflective of understanding, one which is in accord to what is taught in the Tipitaka. And is in direct contrast to the kind of application / practice associated with 壮elf. For while we are still caught up in the idea of 壮elf who needs to *do* something in time, this shows that there is not enough understanding about the present moment as being the only 喪eal object of investigation and the likeliness hence, of ignorance at that very moment, taking us down the wrong path. Here is where the need for continued development at the intellectual level is called for. It is not enough to agree in principle that there are only namas and rupas. The problem is the accumulated ignorance and other akusala, such that concepts continue to be taken for real and one is caught in ideas about past and future. It is bad enough that tanha arises to condition 努anting to know and an attempt to be mindful. Worse is when self view conditions thoughts such as, 的 will practice meditation in order that I might be more mindful of the present moment. So my response to your question: 添ou know what the Four Noble Truths are, Sukin, are you now free from ignorance? Is that, my understanding is only at the kindergarten level. It is pariyatti level, but I believe that it is correct; being that it is which is precondition for patipatti, and this would later condition pativedha of the level which eradicates ignorance. And sure the need for continued refinement at the level of hearing must go on right till the end, which means that along the way, it is also being informed by different levels of direct experience. But 電irect understanding is not something that can be decided upon, not now when we are still putthujanas and not at the level of Ariyan either. There are only dhammas arisen by conditions and beyond control, sati, panna, tanha, moha are examples of dhammas. The Ariyan knows this without doubt, and so he will not act as if this was not the case. The uninstructed worldling, knowing only concepts, live in a world in which people and situations are taken for real and is therefore fooled by the illusion of a 壮elf who can and needs to take action. The instructed worldling, continues to be deluded, however sometimes there arises some understanding which sees through such illusions. And when this is about what is and what is not the Path, intellectual understanding can work to condition, if not moments of direct understanding, at least to deter one from taking on a wrong path / practice. And this is what I believe formal meditation to be at. You said: ========== > James: Yes, we discuss intellectual meaning of the texts. A direct understanding of the truth will affect intellectual understanding. I believe that those who practice Buddhist meditation have a greater intellectual and experiential understanding of the texts that those who don't. S: I would say that those who have had direct understanding, they will appreciate greater any description about the 4NTs. But direct understanding does not correspond to 僧editation. One is reference to a momentary occurrence of Panna during which a characteristic of reality is known, whereas the other is about a conventional activity around which explanations aimed at justifying the activity rather than any application of Dhamma principles continue to be made. This again clearly points to the importance of being patient with development at the intellectual level, not only initially, but at any time, since otherwise wrong practice / patipatti likely follows and one then goes on to justify it and moves further away from the right path. ========== > James: This intellectual knowing would just be knowing what they are. It would be like knowing something from the encyclopedia- you know it but it makes no difference to your mind, wisdom, or kamma. S: One reason I made reference to the 4NTs in my last post was to show that this is only taught in the Tipitaka and nowhere else. Therefore it is only in the Tipitaka that Right View is encouraged. Encyclopedias and other books are meant to encourage thinking rooted in ignorance, attachment and other akusala. Other religions and writings on morality are aimed at arousing other forms of kusala, but usually at the expense of Right View. Just this above fact should show you that reading, listening to, considering and discussing the Dhamma is not a matter of mere discursive thought or manipulation of ideas and symbols. Were this so, then all this would be little different from programming a computer. The fact is that 砥nderstanding right or wrong does arise and this has effect on values placed on experiences, including moral ones, which as you know, no computer program can cause to happen. ========== > > I have a feeling James that you do not believe in the concept re: the relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, but what of the Suttamaya panna, Cintamaya panna and Bhavanamaya panna relationship? What is your understanding of this, or is it that you dismiss this one as well? > James: You are being very vague about complex relationships and then assuming that I dismiss them all. If you have a specific question about a specific relationship, then ask it. Otherwise, don't make assumptions. S: According to my understanding, pariyatti > patipatti > pativedha and suttamaya panna > cintamaya panna > bhavanamaya panna, here the relationship between the parts is exactly that these refer to the same mental factor, 菟anna. And this is such that the one which comes later, cannot arise without much development of that which comes before. Indeed all three levels must agree with each other completely. So from what I see someone who has for example, reached pativedha, such person will never downplay pariyatti. Now since you seemed to not have given due consideration to pariyatti, I took this as being perhaps because you do not actually understand the concept re: pariyatti > patipatti > pativedha. Therefore I wondered if whether you had a different idea with regard to the other concept re: suttamaya panna > cintamaya panna > bhavanamaya panna. And if you rejected the former and accepted this one, I wanted to draw your attention to the fact that here, the first two levels are 妬ntellectual and this should prove better the importance of intellectual understanding according to the Dhamma. James I know that this is a characteristically long post and without useful quotes from the Texts. I understand therefore that it may be tiresome to read, let alone to respond. Please feel free then, not to respond in full, or even at all. Metta, Sukin #96928 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey scottduncan2 Dear Jon, James (and Kevin), Regarding: James: "I just read this and sigh to myself. First, there is no such thing as an 'intellectual level' of panna. Panna is not of the nature of the intellect. Any self-perceived, so called, 'intellectual level of panna' is really just conceit. Jon: "In a post to Sukin a short time later you say: 'Of course one has to begin with 'Right View', which is an intellectual understanding of the Dhamma.'" Scott: Repeated at the end of many sections in Treatise I of Pa.tisambhidaamagga, a treatise on 'Knowledge', and in consideration of 'understanding of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt),' (sotaavadhaane pa~n~naa sutamaye ~naa.na.m) is the following (p. 24): "Whatever ideas are directly known are known [about]. Knowledge is in the sense of that being known and understanding is in the sense of the act of understanding that. Hence it was said: 'The ear is applied thus: These ideas are to be directly known. Understanding as the act of understanding that is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt)'." Scott: Interesting. What does it mean? Sincerely, Scott. #96929 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey jonoabb Hi Scott Many thanks for this. > Scott: Repeated at the end of many sections in Treatise I of Pa.tisambhidaamagga, a treatise on 'Knowledge', and in consideration of 'understanding of applying the ear is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt),' (sotaavadhaane pa~n~naa sutamaye ~naa.na.m) is the following (p. 24): > > "Whatever ideas are directly known are known [about]. Knowledge is in the sense of that being known and understanding is in the sense of the act of understanding that. Hence it was said: 'The ear is applied thus: These ideas are to be directly known. Understanding as the act of understanding that is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt)'." > > Scott: Interesting. What does it mean? Yes, interesting. Am I right in recollecting that in Ptsm "ideas" is Nanamoli's translation of "dhammas"? Jon #96930 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Scott and all, >, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Alex, > Nibbaana literally means 'extinction', so we need to be very clear >about what kind of extinction we are talking about - extinction of >kilesa (defilements) at different stages or extinction of the >khandhas. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Exactly. However, how can cessation of khandas (including consciousness) be an "object" be an object of consciousness! No-consciousness cannot be cognized! With metta, Alex #96931 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:54 pm Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha ... truth_aerator Hi Jon, and all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > Jon: I think you see words like "ardent" and "effort" as having >their ordinary, conventional meanings (and anyone who disagrees with >you as "eel-wriggling";-)). I don't believe that when Buddha has said X, he meant not-X. > Do you think that, in the context of the development of insight, >this is necessarily the case? Buddha said so. If Nibbana could be achieved while dosing off at a coach watching TV... > As regards the simile of the head on fire, I would take the purpose of this to be the *urgency of the situation* rather than the nature of the effort to be put forth. > > Jon > AND effort. The sutta clearly says so. With metta, Alex #96932 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:34 am Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Regarding: J: "Yes, interesting. Am I right in recollecting that in Ptsm "ideas" is Nanamoli's translation of 'dhammas'?" Scott: Correct, Jon. Thus, 'these ideas' of 'these ideas are to be directly known' is 'ime dhammaa abhi~n~neyyaa' - this is about sutamaye ~naa.na.m for sure. 'These dhammaa are to be directly known...' And first they have to have been 'learned'. Sincerely, Scott. #96933 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:41 am Subject: Re: Bring joy, fulfillment, happiness, and delight! kenhowardau Hi Jonathan, Thanks for the new thread and invitation to comment. I believe that the Dhamma is profound, deep in meaning and difficult to see. Therefore, when we look at these verses you have quoted we need to see a deep profound difficult-to-see meaning in them. Do we,? Or do we see the same sort of thing that any other ordinary person could see? -------------- DP: > 5 The Fool 5. A fool may associate with a wise man throughout his life And remain untouched by his wisdom, Even as a spoon cannot taste the flavor of the soup. 6. On the other hand, an aware man, in a moment's meeting, Can learn from a wise man, Even as the tongue tastes the flavor of the soup. > ---------------- The Buddha said there was no self. How then are we to understand the terms "fool" and "wise man?" With respect, Jonathon, I am not sure your comments are very helpful in that regard: ---------- > 5 - 6 The wisdom of the Buddha is simple, pure and sublime. It is insight into or awareness of that which is the true nature of ourselves and all that surrounds us. We cause ourselves unnecessary suffering when we desire that which we think is pleasing, yet is really detrimental to ourselves and others. --------- Who are these "selves" to whom we "cause unnecessary suffering?" I am not saying that we can't talk about the Dhamma in conventional language, I am only saying that these terms need to be explained. --------------- J: > If we are to be freed from the "round of rebirths" (the cycle of addictive views and behaviors) that is endless and needless suffering, we begin by practicing morality, the foundation upon which we build our wisdom > --------------- In the real world described by the Buddha there are only conditioned dhammas. Until we have understood conditioned dhammas we have *not* begun to free ourselves from this world (regardless of how much morality we may have practised). The first, middle, and last steps on the path are all, first and foremost, steps of Right Understanding. ------------------ J: > Practicing loving kindness toward all without exception or condition, and emulating the enlightened qualities of the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, further develops this wisdom. In addition, being aware of the interconnected, transient, temporal, and impermanent nature of everything outside of ourselves (and ourselves) increases our development of insight. Finally, we meditate, completely stilling our thoughts, abiding in serenity, not just during our sitting period, but throughout our day as well. ------------------- Actually, no, that is not the way it is done. The Path that the Buddha taught is a momentary arising of conditioned dhammas. Right Thought is one of those dhammas. [Except in some rare circumstances] right thought is a factor of the path, and it cognises the object of path-consciousness (which is either a conditioned dhamma or nibbana). Therefore, if `stilling of thoughts' could be said to be taking place it would simply be that these momentary path-factors were not thinking about anything *apart from* the present object of consciousness. (There is no conceptualising in such moments.) ---------------------------- J:> This is the path of self-enlightenment, yet we may find a person(s) that can assist us along the way. ---------------------------- Perhaps I am being pedantic but only a Buddha can be self enlightened. Everyone else needs to be taught. That is why, for us, the path is entirely one of good companionship. ---------------------------------- J: > When we do, we need to utilize this rare opportunity to emulate the qualities of wisdom that they posses. When we do, we are able to "taste" (share in) the benefits of the life that this wise person(s) has led. ---------------------------------- Yes, or as I would prefer to say: If Right Understanding has been conditioned to arise it will recognise the true Dhamma when it hears it. If Right Understanding has not been conditioned to arise then nothing will help. Not even shouting! :-) Ken H #96934 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:42 am Subject: Final Wisdom! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What are the 3 Supramundane Mental Abilities? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these three supramundane abilities. What three? 1: The ability of coming to know, what one did not yet know... 2: The ability of gradually achieving the highest & final wisdom... 3: The ability of one, who dwells in the highest and final wisdom... These are the three supreme supramundane abilities. (aﾃｱﾃｱﾄ-indriya) <...> Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 204] 48 The Mental Abilities: 23 Final Wisdom.. Have a nice knowing day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samﾄ”ita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Final Wisdom! #96935 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sila and the first stage of holiness nilovg Hallo Arjan, Op 28-mrt-2009, om 13:18 heeft ajschrier het volgende geschreven: > In Nina's book on Buddhism in daily live (Dutch edition by > Boeddhayana uitgeverij) I read that it is good to take refuge in > the buddha, it is better to undertake the pancasila, it is even > better to have a glimpse of metta and it is even more fruitfull to > experience impermanence, even when it is only for the time of a > snap of the finger. -------- N: Boeddhayana, yes, that is so long ago. Later on I revised this book. You can see it on http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/1746908-alanweller?page=1 or: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ -------- As Sarah explained, the last one, understanding impermanence, is the most important since it is pa~n~naa, right understanding, that sees realities as they are: impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. Siila without right understanding is unstable. Also people outside Buddhism observe siila, but they do not know that it is not self that observes it. So, sometimes they have success, sometimes not. There are many degrees of siila. When you understand that citta accompanied by beaitiful cetasikas (mental factors), such as confidence in wholesomeness, sati, non-attachment, non-aversion, observe siila, siila will become more steadfast. Sati 'guards' the six doors of the senses and the mind-door. Through these doorways colour, sound, etc. are experienced and on account of these objects attachment, aversion and ignorance arise. When understanding of these objects is developed and there can be awareness of them, they will be seen as they really are: only conditioned elements that are non-self and do not belong to a self. There can be awareness of what is unwholesome and in this way it is learnt that also akusala, that which is unwholesome, is only a conditioned element. Whatever arises does so because of its own conditions and it cannot be manipulated or controlled. But understanding can be developed, little by little. Thus, siila is not merely keeping certain rules, it is much more than that. It is the practice. Siila develops as understanding of realities, nama and rupa, develops. Only when the first stage of enlightenment has been attained, that is, the stage of the sotaapanna, the five precepts are perfectly observed, because of conditions. Instead of thinking how heavy such or such transgression is, it is more valuable to know that whetever appears now, be it akusala, is a conditioned dhamma. That is the way. I do not know whether what I wrote here is clear, and do not hesitate to keep on asking. Nina. #96936 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (11) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 11: Going to the Movies "The word 'power' or 'powerful' means it [sati] does not mind or care about place and time and object." ***** Tony(?): If someone were to spend their time going to movies, indulging in all sorts of sensory pleasures, thinking, "Oh well, sati is not at the level of a power, it doesn't matter where I go".... Sujin: If that person develops sati, alright, nobody can stop his pa~n~naa [from arising]. Jonothan: It seems that we think there should be rules about where one may or may not go or what one should or should not do. How can there be rules about some places, 'bad for sati', other places 'good for sati'? Vince: If there were certain conditions favourable for some places whereas for others not favourable.... Jon: You're saying, say, cinemas are bad places for sati to arise? Ven Guttasila: If you were at the beginning, would you expect by going to movies, that these would be favourable conditions for satipa.t.thaana? Would that show right understanding? Jon: I don't think going to the cinema shows wrong understanding. Jill: If one has accumulations for going to the cinema, surely it would only be right understanding and the development of sati more and more, every minute, whether one was in the movies or wherever, that would make one understand the value in not going to the movies or the non-value in going to the movies? It's only right understanding. Ven Dhammadharo: What about instead of going to the movies to have sati or going to the forest to have sati, letting sati be aware now, because this is our real life - it's not a movie house and it's not the forest. Ven G: we're talking about sati at a certain level [of a power] and giving up certain things. Sujin: You talk about developing sati up to the level of being powerful. Should we develop it now so that it will become powerful, no matter here or there? The word 'power' or 'powerful' means it does not mind or care about place and time and object. So while one is in the movie-theatre, so one is there already. Sati should be aware of [any] naama and ruupa in order to make it powerful. If one is in the movie-theatre and one is not aware of naama and ruupa, how can the pa~n~naa reach the level of being powerful? ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #96937 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi Howard > You are distinguishing the mental factor from the actions it motivates. > Okay. > -------------------------------------------- Yes, and the distinction's an important one. All kusala (and akusala) is purely mental. It has no physical aspect, regardless of whether it occurs through body, speech or mind. But when kusala is spoken of in conventional terms (as it often is in the suttas or the Abhidhamma), it is referred to largely in terms of acts of body and speech (i.e., a person doing this or that). > -------------------------------------------- > Thanks, but I'm not clear from that remark whether you agree or not with my > comments about kusala arising spontaneously without any input from the > "person" involved. > -------------------------------------------------- > There is no person involved, except as 'person' refers to a stream of > namas and rupas acting in concert. > -------------------------------------------- OK, we agree that, in the ultimate sense, there is no "person". > -------------------------------------------- > I'm not keen on the "spontaneously" though. > Wholesome namas arise due to causes and conditions, ... > -------------------------------------------- We also agree that wholesome namas arise due to causes and conditions. What I'm further suggesting is that it is everyone's experience in normal daily life that wholesome namas may arise without any purposeful, deliberate intention in that regard at the time. For example, we let the other person pass through the doorway first. It happens quite spontaneously (speaking conventionally). > -------------------------------------------- > ... among which are useful > thinking and willing and guarding the senses and so on. > -------------------------------------------- So it's our own experience that, in daily life, not all wholesome namas that arise are immediately preceded by the factors you mention here of useful thinking, willing or an idea of guarding the senses. Is there anything in what I've just said that you disagree with? Jon #96938 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (12) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 12: Different People, Different Accumulations. "Whatever one calls it, pa~n~naa, it can see realities as they are." ***** Ven Guttasila: I find it difficult to understand that right understanding can and must arise anywhere and it must.... but in a sense to have right understanding... Sujin: But one should know why one doesn't have right understanding... Because there is no awareness. That is the reason. Ven G: In other words, depending on our own accumulations...it's a difficult area because it seems it doesn't matter what we do, right understanding can arise anytime. This seems to me to go over... too broad, too general... Sijin: No, if we don't interpret right understanding as ignorance, we'll see that right understanding can see realites as they are. If the reality which cannot see realities as they are, one can not say, one should not say, that it's right understanding or pa~n~naa. Whatever one calls it, pa~n~naa, it can see realities as they are. 'Realities', not only 'a reality'. Ven G: Why in the Buddha's teachings does one have certain restraints... certain (?)... encouraged.... Sujin: Because there are many different people. For those who only have accumulations to develop daana, let them develop daana and help them to understand more of siila and right understanding. And for those who are able only to develop siila, let them develop siila. But for those who are able to develop satipa.t.thaana, why do we help them only to develop samatha or siila or daana? We should help them to develop satipa.t.thaana, because they can develop it. So the Buddha knew the accumulations of all people, so he taught the people who could develop only daana to develop daana and he taught those who could develop only siila to develop siila and he taught those who could develop only samatha to develop samatha. But for those who could develop satipa.t.thaana, he taught them to develop satipa.t.thaana. So he's the Perfected One who taught different people according to their different accumulations. ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #96939 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:42 am Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha ... jonoabb Hi Alex > > As regards the simile of the head on fire, I would take the purpose of this to be the *urgency of the situation* rather than the nature of the effort to be put forth. > > AND effort. The sutta clearly says so. > -------------------------------------------- Well firstly it actually says *extra* effort, which I understand to be because of the urgency of the situation. And secondly it is not just effort but a number of (wholesome) qualities, namely: - desire, - effort, - diligence, - endeavor, - undivided mindfulness, & - alertness So I don't see the passage as having anything to say about the *nature* of the effort in particular. Jon "Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." #96940 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:43 am Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey jonoabb Hi Scott > Scott: Correct, Jon. Thus, 'these ideas' of 'these ideas are to be directly known' is 'ime dhammaa abhi~n~neyyaa' - this is about sutamaye ~naa.na.m for sure. 'These dhammaa are to be directly known...' And first they have to have been 'learned'. > -------------------------------------------- Yes. I'm guessing of course but I would say the passage is pointing out that dhammas have to be learnt about (by hearing the teachings) before they can be directly experienced. Many thanks for bringing up the passage. Jon #96941 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 29-mrt-2009, om 8:09 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > Vibh: 'is not grasped, is the object of attachements. > (atthi anupaadinnupaadaaniya.m)' > > L: Here is a problem: > Vibh: 'is not grasped is the object of attachments.' ------- N: We have to consider the meaning of grasped: produced by kamma. Upadinna. Rupas of the body are also produced by citta, temperature and nutrition. These are not grasped but they are still objects of attachment: upaadaaniya. ------ Nina. #96942 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Singular Occupancy sarahprocter... Dear Han, Scott, Lukas, Ann & all, We reflect on a term, here, punappuna.m and then it starts popping up in different places. --- On Thu, 26/3/09, han tun wrote: H: >SN 7.12 Udaya Sutta: Like Sarah, I also like the words [again and again] [punappuna.m] . <..> Han: The word [punappuna.m] reminds me Dhammapada verses 153 and 154. 153. Anekajaati sa.msaara.m, sandhaavissa. m anibbisa.m; Gahakaara.m gavesanto, dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m. <...> English translation by Daw Mya Tin: 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha! ... S: And then Scott wrote in a different thread on lobha (to Ann): Scott:> ...loluppa.m loluppaayanaa loluppaayitatta.m... Scott: PTS PED has: "Loluppa (nt.) [abstr. fr. lolupa] greediness, covetousness, self -- indulgence, desire; in the language of the Abhidhamma often syn. with jappaa or ta.nhaa. At DhsA 365 loluppa is treated as an adj. & expld at 'punappuna visaye lumpati aaka.d.dhatii ti,' i. e. one who tears again & again at the object..." ... Sarah: Just checking the text here (Atthasaalinii and its PTS transl.) in the great section on lobha: "Tattha ekasmi.m aaramma.ne saki.m uppannaa ta.nhaa nandii, punappuna uppajja.maanaa nandiiraago ti vuccati. Cittassa saaraago ti. Yo he.t.thaa balavara~njana.t.thena saaraago ti vutto so na sattassa, cittass' eva so raago ti attho." "Craving once arisen as to an object is 'delight'; arisen repeatedly, it is 'passionate delight.' 'Infatuation of mind' means that the term described above is not of a permanent being, but only of consciousness." And then as Scott quoted from: "punappuna visaye lumpati aaka.d.dhatii ti loluppo. Loluppassa bhaavo loluppa.m, loluppaakaaro loluppaayanaa. Loluppasama'mgino bhaavo loluppaayitatta.m." " 'Self-indulgent' means a repeated plundering, hauling along in the fields of sense, followed by self-indulgence, self-indulging, state of one who is given to self-indulgence." And finally, here's a verse from the same section which is a good reminder on the general topic we were discussing with regard to the repeated lives in sa.msara: "Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso diigham addhaana.m sa.msara.m Itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaava.m sa.msaara.m naativattatii ti." "The man mated with craving wanders long Through life and death, nor does he get beyond His travels thus - reborn then otherwise." Sarah: Thanks to all our good friends for these repeated dhamma reminders. By the way, sometimes people suggest that there are more objects for attachment now, what with the internet, movies, TV and so on, compared to the Buddha's time. The argument has never made any sense to me -- just 6 doorways now, the same as at any other time. The attachment to visible object of sound, depends on one's accumulations for lobha and moha and the same for the other senses. When we think in terms of the internet or movies, we're lost again in conventional ideas about attachment, rather than understanding the present dhammas. I'll look forward to any further comments. Metta, Sarah ====== #96943 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:57 am Subject: Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m szmicio Dear Nina > > Vibh: 'is not grasped, is the object of attachements. > > (atthi anupaadinnupaadaaniya.m)' > > > > L: Here is a problem: > > Vibh: 'is not grasped is the object of attachments.' > ------- > N: We have to consider the meaning of grasped: produced by kamma. > Upadinna. > Rupas of the body are also produced by citta, temperature and > nutrition. These are not grasped but they are still objects of > attachment: upaadaaniya. L: Well, it makes sense. But my PTS translation of Vibhanga is confusing me. Also in my pali dictionary upaadinna means grasped. It comes from upaadiyati that means to grasp. I understand what you mean. There is kamma-produced ruupa and ruupas produced by citta, temperature, nutrition. That's good distinction. But why Buddha showed it in such way. Insted of it he could say there are ruupas produced by citta and the other ruupas as opposite of cittaja-ruupas. But here he said that ruupas can be produced by kamma or can be producted by another factor. Why is that? Why kammaja-ruupa distinction is so important here? Can we discuss kammaja-ruupas? Can we discuss vipaka? Which ruupas are kammaja-ruupas? Nina, you can also give me a pages of your Ruupas, that deals with it. Your Ruupa's book encourage me very much. I am also waiting for Connie answers. My best wishes Lukas #96944 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, (Connie & all), Part 1: --- On Sun, 29/3/09, szmicio wrote: 3)Vibh: 'That material quality which is internal is grasped (Ya.m ta.m ruupa.m ajjhattika.m ta.m upaadinna.m) ' L: So here upaadinna refers to kammaja-ruupas. But I've got some doubts. Upaadinna here is more likely to means 'grasped'. ***** S: You've raised this topic a few times, so let me share from some posts I wrote before on this difficult and important topic. Here are a couple with some extracts, which you may find helpful. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49829 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49992 >N: Visuddhimagga XIV, 214 deals with the upadana khandhas: subject to > cankers and liable to clinging. I will study the Tiika too when we come >to it. I always find this subject difficult. <...> S:> First, to repeat, there are two meanings of 'upaadaanakkhandha': a) All khandhas arise and fall away, but are not necessarily the object of upadana (clinging). Only the dhamma which is the object of upadana (clinging) is upadana khandha at that moment, because it arises and falls away. It can't be upadana khandha when it is not clung to, eg eye-base whilst sleeping is not the object of clinging. With regard to the definition of dukkha, given as "sankhittena pa~ncupaadaanakhandhaa dukkhaa" (the five factors of attachment are suffering), this therefore refers, as I understand it, to the dhamma which is the object of clinging now. So when it is the moment of realization and the full penetration of the rising and falling away of dhammas, the object must be one which is usually the object of upadana (clinging). ..... Vism X1V, 214 (~Naa.namoli translation): "As to distinction: as to distinction between aggregates and aggregates-as-objects-of-clinging. But what is the distinction between them? Firstly, aggregates is said without distinguishing. Aggregates [as objects] of clinging is said distinguishing those that are subject to cankers and are liable to clingings, according as it is said: 'Bhikkhus, I shall teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging. Listen.....Any kind of materiality whatever....is called the materiality aggregate.......feeling...perception....formations...consciousness....consciousn\ ess aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates. "And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging? Any kind of materiality whatever.............consciousness whatever....far or near, that is subject to cankers and liable to clingings: this is called the consciousness aggregate [as object] of clinging. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging' (S iii,47)" *** b) Rupas conditioned by upadana (clinging) are also referred to as 'upaadanaakkhandhaa', i.e kammaja rupas. 'Upaadi.n.na-ka ruupa' (clung-to matter) means 'kammaja-ruupa' (kamma-born matter). ..... Vism X1V, n23 "Upaadi.n.na (also upaadi.n.naka) is pp. of upaadiyati (he clings), from which the noun upaadaana (clinging) also comes. Upaadi.n.na-(ka) ruupa (clung-to matter) = kammaja-ruupa (kamma-born matter); see Dhs #653. "It is vaguely renderable by 'organic or sentient or living matter'; technically, it is matter of the four primaries that is 'clung to' (upaadi.n.na) or 'derived' (upaadaaya) by kamma. Generally taken as a purely Abhidhamma term (Dhs, p1), it nevertheless occurs in the Suttas at Mi, 185 in the same sense. ...... S: (Dhs #652- 655 gives details of kammaja rupas, rupas which are not kammaja, kammaja rupas which are also objects of clinging, rupas which are not kammaja, but are objects of clinging. Also see Vism X11, n20.) Mi, 185 is the same reference I gave (MN 28, Nanamoli/Bodhi).), to repeat: "What is the internal earth element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is solid, solidified and clung-to (upaadi.n.na); that is, head-hairs.............etc." Note: "Upaadi.n.na, 'clung-to', is used in the Abhidhamma as a technical term applicable to bodily phenomena that are produced by kamma. Here, however, it is used in a more general sense as applicable to the entire body insofar as it is grasped as 'mine' and misapprehended as a self....According to the Abhidhamma analysis of matter, the four primary elements are inseperable, and thus each element is also included, though in a subordinate role, in the bodily phenomena listed under the three elements." ..... S: See also Vism X1, 27f: "Now comes the description of the development of the definition of the four elements.... It is given in brief in the Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Sutta, for one of quick understanding who meditation subject is elements, as follows: "Bhikkhus, just as though a skilled butcher or butcher's apprentice had killed a cow....the earth element, the water element, the fire element, and the air element' (Dii, 294)............ "In the Mahaatthipadompama Sutta it is given in detail for one of not over-quick understanding whose meditation subject is elements 窶 and as here so also in the Raaahulovaada and Dhaatuuvibha'nga Suttas - as follows: 'And what is the internal earth element, friends? Whatever there is internally in oneself that is hard, harsh, and clung to [S: upaadi.n.na](acquired throught kamma), that is to say, head hairs, body hairs...........dung, or whatever else is internally in oneself that is hard, harsh, and clung to 窶 this is called the internal earth element.' (Mi, 185) ..... (S: see other similar references, eg Vism V111, 130.) ***** to be contd. Metta, Sarah ======= #96945 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, As I've mentioned before, you often raise issues that I'm also very interested in. I like your approach of carefully considering what you read and its application to your life. Part 2, taken from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49992 >S:To add a little more on this from Sammohavinodanii, (PTS, Class. Of Aggregates, 132f): " 'As to the distinction': [that is] as to the distinction between 'aggregates' (khandha) and 'aggregates [as objects] of clinging' (upaadaanakkhandha). But what is the distinction between them? 'Aggregates' in the first place is said without distinction; but 'aggregates [as objects] of clinging' [is said] distinguishing those which are subject to cankers and are to be clung to (saasava-upaadaaniiya-bhaavena), according as it is said...." (quote from Siii47 follows)... ..... >>Steve: Page 580 of the Dhammasa.nga.ni (U Kyaw Khine translation) has: > > What are the dhammaa which are objects of aasavas (saasava.m): There > are meritorious, demeritorious and neither-meritorious-nor- > demeritorious dhammaa of the sensuous sphere, the fine material > sphere and the Non-material sphere which are the aggregate of > corporeality, feeling, perception and the aggregate of consciousness. > These are the dhammaa which are objects of aasavas > > Katame dhammaa saasavaa? Kusalaakusalaabyaakataa dhammaa > kaamaavacaraa, ruupaavacaraa, aruupaavacaraa; ruupakkhandho 窶ｦpe窶ｦ > vi~n~naa.nakkhandho窶 > ime dhammaa saasavaa. .... S: I was just quoting from the Atthasaalinii (PTS, Expositor) for another thread and came across the following in 'Triplets in the Maatikaa', which I think is helpful too: "In the triplet of 'Grasped and favourable to grasping,' 'grasped' means- seized-as-effect by a kamma, attended by craving and wrong view in the act of sensing or thinking of an object. Upaadaaniyaa means 'favourable to grasping窶 because of the connection with grasping *by having become objects*. The term is applied to objects of grasping. 'Effects grasped and favourable to grasping' (upaadinnupaadaaniyaa) is a name given to material and mental states born of kamma attended by the 'intoxicants' (aasava's). In this way, but in the negative sense, the meaning of the remaining two terms should be understood. Pali***: "Upaadinnupaadaaniyattike aaramma.nakara.navasena ta.nhaadiihi upetena kammunaa aaci.n.naa phalabhaavena gahitaa ti upaadinnaa. *Aaramma.nabhaava.m upagantvaa* upaadaanasambhanena upaadaanaana.m hitaa ti upaadaaniyaa. Upaadaanassa aaramma.napaccayabhuutaana.m eta.m adhivacana.m. Upaadinnaa ca te upaadaaniyaa ca upaadinnupaadaaniyaa. Saasavakammanibbattaana.m ruupaaruupadhammaanam eta.m adhivacana.m. Iminaa nayena sesapadadvayena pa.tisedhasahito attho veditabbo." ***** >S: From the commentary note which B.Bodhi quotes on p.1059 of SN: "Spk:...'With taints' (saasava) means: what becomes a condition for the taints by way of object; so too 'that can be clung to (upaadaaniya) means what becomes a condition for clinging [Spk-p.t: by being made its object]. Among the aggregates subject to clinging, stated by way of the practice of insight, the form aggregate is sense sphere, the others pertain to the three planes (i.e, excluding only the supramundane.)" .... I'll look forward to reading your further discussions on the Dhsg passages with Connie and others. Metta, Sarah ======= #96946 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... ptaus1 Hi Jon, I hope it's okay to ask here, I'm wondering about a few things regarding "purposeful" and "control" issues: 1.If a kusala citta is prompted by oneself (i.e. not as spontaneous as an unprompted kusala citta), would it still be considered not purposeful? 2.Can't an akusala citta condition a kusala citta? Like when doing something on purpose and that very doing (even if it is akusala) becomes the condition for kusala citta? 3.One of the jhana masteries is getting in and out of a jhana at will at any time when it is so desired. Is this not a purposeful act? 4.I recently started samatha, and I don't think I'm close to jhana, but one of the by-products of samatha seems to be a lot of metta. It often arises on its own during the day, but I can also make metta arise at will in most cases. Like now there, it was just here while I was wishing you well, good health and freedom from suffering. The act seems very purposeful to me, so I'm having trouble understanding how it can be analised as not purposeful. Thanks pt > What I'm further suggesting is that it is everyone's experience in normal daily life that wholesome namas may arise without any purposeful, deliberate intention in that regard at the time. For example, we let the other person pass through the doorway first. It happens quite spontaneously (speaking conventionally). > > > -------------------------------------------- > > ... among which are useful > > thinking and willing and guarding the senses and so on. > > -------------------------------------------- > > So it's our own experience that, in daily life, not all wholesome namas that arise are immediately preceded by the factors you mention here of useful thinking, willing or an idea of guarding the senses. #96947 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep & all, --- On Fri, 27/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >Hi Jon. Repeating message. Yet another demerit for leaving out the greeting. Gee..... ... S: I have a suggestion: why don't you chalk up your own demerits and let us assume you're giving yourself the necessary punishments so that you don't need to re-post the entire message again. TIA:-). Thanks anyway for making the 'effort' to add the greetings and doing all that keeps us sweet. As we can see, in spite of so-called best efforts, lapses occur for us all which just goes to prove the point that all dhammas, including effort of any kind, are conditioned, depending on so many factors to arise. Back to our discussions later....TIA! [Thx for your good examples to others re trimming too!] Metta, Sarah ========= #96948 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:31 pm Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Regarding: J: "Yes. I'm guessing of course but I would say the passage is pointing out that dhammas have to be learnt about (by hearing the teachings) before they can be directly experienced." Scott: The Dasuttara Sutta, (Digha Nikaaya, 34) is said to be the basis for what is set out in Pa.tisambhidaamagga. This sutta has a fairly long (and somewhat repetitive) set of 'things' enumerated. The pattern that this enumeration follows sets out these 'things' in terms of those that, 1) 'greatly help' (dhammo bahukaaro); 2) are 'to be developed' (dhammo bhaavetabbo); 3) are 'to be thoroughly known' (dhammo pari~n~neyyo); 4) are 'to be abandoned' (dhammo pahaatabbo); 5) '[conduce] to diminution' (dhammo haanabhaagiyo); 6) '[conduce] to distinction' (dhammo visesabhaagiyo); 7) are 'hard to penetrate' (dhammo duppa.tivijjho); 8) are 'made to arise' (dhammo uppaadetabbo); 9) are 'to be thouroughly learnt' (dhammo abhi~n~neyyo); and, 10) 'to be realised' (dhammo sacchikaatabbo). These 'things' are dhammaa. The things to be 'thoroughly learnt' are: 1) 'All beings are maintained by nutriment.' 2) 'Two elements, the conditioned and the unconditioned.' 3) 'Three elements, the element of sense-desire, the element of form, the formless element.' 4) 'Four Noble Truths.' 5) 'Five bases of deliverance.' 6) 'Six unsurpassed things.' 7) 'Seven grounds for commendation.' 8) 'Eight states of mastery.' 9) 'Nine successive abidings.' 10) 'Ten causes of wearing away.' ('...by right view wrong view is worn away...many wholesome states are developed...', 'by right thought...', 'by right speech...', 'by right action...', 'by right livelihood...', 'by right effort...', 'by right mindfulness...', 'by right concentration...', 'by right knowledge...', 'by right liberation...many wholesome states are developed and perfected.' I'd say that it is quite consistent throughout in showing that learning about dhammas leads to the direct experience of dhammas. Sincerely, Scott. #96949 From: "connie" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:35 pm Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (1-3) nichiconn Dear Friends, CSCD Catukka.m 306. < Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ANAPANSATI detail silananda_t Hi, Nina wrote: > First we have to be clear about it whether this is a matter of doing or observing. This is a basic principle and if we are not clear about it there cannot be anapanasati. > Thus, first we should talk more on nama and rupa. .... Listening, considering, more understanding of nama and rupa are indispensable here. It is of no use just trying to concentrate on breath if there is no understanding of nama and rupa. Some questions: Where does a beginner on anapanasati start? With a clear knowledge of the breath ... being a matter of doing or observing? With an understanding of nama rupa first? That is impossible. Please clarify then. mahakaruna, ~sila #96951 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/30/2009 4:39:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > You are distinguishing the mental factor from the actions it motivates. > Okay. > -------------------------------------------- Yes, and the distinction's an important one. All kusala (and akusala) is purely mental. It has no physical aspect, regardless of whether it occurs through body, speech or mind. But when kusala is spoken of in conventional terms (as it often is in the suttas or the Abhidhamma), it is referred to largely in terms of acts of body and speech (i.e., a person doing this or that). > -------------------------------------------- > Thanks, but I'm not clear from that remark whether you agree or not with my > comments about kusala arising spontaneously without any input from the > "person" involved. > -------------------------------------------------- > There is no person involved, except as 'person' refers to a stream of > namas and rupas acting in concert. > -------------------------------------------- OK, we agree that, in the ultimate sense, there is no "person". > -------------------------------------------- > I'm not keen on the "spontaneously" though. > Wholesome namas arise due to causes and conditions, ... > -------------------------------------------- We also agree that wholesome namas arise due to causes and conditions. What I'm further suggesting is that it is everyone's experience in normal daily life that wholesome namas may arise without any purposeful, deliberate intention in that regard at the time. For example, we let the other person pass through the doorway first. It happens quite spontaneously (speaking conventionally). > -------------------------------------------- > ... among which are useful > thinking and willing and guarding the senses and so on. > -------------------------------------------- So it's our own experience that, in daily life, not all wholesome namas that arise are immediately preceded by the factors you mention here of useful thinking, willing or an idea of guarding the senses. Is there anything in what I've just said that you disagree with? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: This is a "red letter day," Jon. I disagree with absolutely nothing that you wrote above! :-) ----------------------------------------------- Jon ========================== With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96952 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:31 pm Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy hantun1 Dear Sarah, Scott, Lukas, Ann & all, I have nothing more to add except to thank you and Scott for letting me know where else I can find [punappuna]. I also thanbk you for the following verse: [Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso diigham addhaana.m sa.msara.m Itthabhaava~ n~nathaabhaava. m sa.msaara.m naativattatii ti.] [Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso] reminds me the reminder by a Burmese Sayadaw. He said that one who goes to the forest to meditate alone, should be careful that although physically he may be alone, he might have a companion next to him in the form of [Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso]! Best regards, Han #96953 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m szmicio Dear Sarah Thanks for your help. That's very useful. > >S:To add a little more on this from Sammohavinodanii, (PTS, Class. Of > Aggregates, 132f): > > " 'As to the distinction': [that is] as to the distinction between > 'aggregates' (khandha) and 'aggregates [as objects] of clinging' > (upaadaanakkhandha). L: That's very good distincion. It reminds me that reading and hearing Dhamma is a condition for understanding. >But what is the distinction between them? > 'Aggregates' in the first place is said without distinction; but > 'aggregates [as objects] of clinging' [is said] distinguishing those which > are subject to cankers and are to be clung to > (saasava-upaadaaniiya-bhaavena), according as it is said...." L: Yes, but only one dhamma at a time can be object to clining? When there is no attachement there is no upaadaanakhandha. When there is lobha, what object it has? when lobha arises with citta, all accompanied cetasikas are akusala, then lobha condition citta and all cetasikas by way of hetupaccaya. so all cetasikas are object of clinging at that time? > > Katame dhammaa saasavaa? Kusalaakusalaabyaakataa dhammaa > > kaamaavacaraa, ruupaavacaraa, aruupaavacaraa; ruupakkhandho 窶ｦpe窶ｦ > > vi~n~naa.nakkhandho窶" > > ime dhammaa saasavaa. L: So each dhamma except nibbana and eight lokuttara-cittas is saasavaa? My best wishes Lukas #96954 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:48 pm Subject: Practice the wisdom of Dhamma! jonathancoppola Dhammapada entry #213/30/2009 Dear friendsBelow please find a part of a series of postings that will include entries from the Dhammapada. Along with these will be my comments. I encourage you to reflect on these entries, and post comments of your own here or at: jonathancoppola@... A copy of all the postings is available upon request. The source is: The Dhammapada, Translated by Venerable Ananda Maitraya, Parallex Press, 1995. 5 The Fool 10. Until he feels the effect, The fool rejoices in his evil deed. When the action reaches fruition, The fool harvests nothing but grief. 11. Though the fool may practice asceticism, Eating a speck of food on the tip of a blade of grass, He is not worth one-sixteenth of the arahant, The knower of the Dhamma. 12. An evil deed like milk freshly drawn from the udder, Does not produce its results at once. It smolders slowly, like a fire covered by ashes, And finally consumes its doer the fool. 13. The things a fool gains amount to nothing, Unwholesome acts cannot bring him wholesome results. 14. What a fool hungers for Is false fame, authority, Power over others, and generous offerings. He seeks recognition as a doer, A wielder of power, A knower of right and wrong. His craving and pride are insatiable. 15. There is a path that leads to worldly gain, Another road leads to Nirvana. Let the seeker, the disciple of Buddha, Embracing seclusion, Take the path to wisdom and enlightenment. Comments: 10-14.When looking at these similes, who does Buddha describe as a "fool"? I feel as though this is important to discern, so that we may know who to avoid, and what to avoid doing ourselves. The fool: Rejoices in evil deeds, eventually (while the deed smolders) harvesting[is consumed by]nothing but grief. May practice asceticism, [memorized or is knowledgeable of suttas] however, he/she is not worth one sixteenth part of the knower [practitioner] of the Dhamma. "The monk's robe does not in itself render one free from stain." Dhp 1, verse 9 "A careless person quoting much of the scriptural text but not living it, cannot share in the abundance of the holy life" Dhp 1 verse 19. "Do not remain addicted to disputation, i.e. `How could you understand this doctrine or discipline.' `Your way is all wrong-mine is right!'" DN 1.18 The things he/she gains [money, property, prestige, knowledge] amount to nothing as the acts that precede these acquisitions are unwholesome. Hungers for false fame, authority, power over others, and generous offerings,(also compliments), seeks recognition as a doer, a wielder of power, a knower of[the Dhamma]right and wrong. Their craving and pride are insatiable. 15. The Buddha asks us to seclude ourselves within the path to wisdom and enlightenment, to choose the path leading away from worldly gain. This "worldly gain" includes knowledge, authority, and prestige, as well as other non-material gain. Rather than choosing these foolish pursuits, the wise one "drinks deeply[practices]of Dhamma living happily, with a peaceful mind. Dhp 6, verse 4. Practice the wisdom of Dhamma! With Metta, Jonathan #96956 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:31 pm Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha truth_aerator Hi Jon and all interested, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > > As regards the simile of the head on fire, I would take the >purpose of this to be the *urgency of the situation* rather than the >nature of the effort to be put forth. > > > > AND effort. The sutta clearly says so. > > -------------------------------------------- > >Well firstly it actually says *extra* effort, which I understand to >be because of the urgency of the situation. > >And secondly it is not just effort but a number of (wholesome) >qualities, namely: > - desire, > - effort, > - diligence, > - endeavor, > - undivided mindfulness, & > - alertness The above qualities are active qualities! Not something that "just happens" by itself. With metta, Alex #96957 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ANAPANSATI detail nilovg Dear Sachin, I truly appreciate your questions, it shows your real interest. Please keep on asking about what you do not find clear. It is difficult to answer when I do not know your back ground. Have you studied the Visuddhimagga that gives explanations on the anapanasatisutta in: Ch VIII, 145 etc. in four sections of four clauses each (tetrads). In my book 'The World in the Buddhist Sense", Ch 6-8 I deal with this. You could find this here:< http:// www.zolag.co.uk/ > I shall the coming weeks post these in small sections and please, insist on asking. Some remarks below: Op 30-mrt-2009, om 15:03 heeft sﾄｫlﾄ］anda het volgende geschreven: > N: It > is of no use just trying to concentrate on breath if there is no > understanding of nama and rupa. > > Sachin: Some questions: > Where does a beginner on anapanasati start? ------- N: He must have clear understanding what breath is and where it appears. It is of no use to just start to concentrate on breath since one then may merely think of a concept of breath instead of being directly aware of it. The aim is detachment, we find breath so important since it sustains our life. But it is only a tiny rupa, appearing as hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion pressure. It appears on the nosetip or upperlip. ------------ > With a clear knowledge of the > breath ... being a matter of doing or observing? -------- N: A matter of right understanding. Understanding is a beautiful cetasika and it performs the function of understanding. Doing or observing: one may still think about the breath instead of being directly aware if it. -------- > With an understanding of > nama rupa first? That is impossible. -------- N: A basic understanding is necessary. When breathing, it is difficult to distinguish between the rupa breath and the citta that experiences breath. Citta is nama, feeling is also nama. It is not impossible to understand this, but it needs careful consideration. It is not possible to explain all in one post. See my forthcoming postings. ------- Nina. #96958 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:49 am Subject: [dsg] ANAPANSATI: no 1. nilovg Dear Sachin and friends, Following are quotes from my Book 'The World in the Buddhist Sense', Ch 6-8, written in the from of Letters. -------- Dear Mr. G., You wrote to me about concentration on breathing and since many people are interested in this subject I will quote from your letter: 'I find that while I concentrate on breathing sensations and thoughts are blotted out and in this way I become more relaxed and I have less aversion. I find that after this exercise mindfulness becomes more acute and frequent. Seeing and hearing seem so clear, and all six doors are wide open, registering with clarity and intensity everything. The situation is like a spider in a web, ready to catch, but without tension. I find that by means of concentration on breathing, I can create favourable conditions for wisdom of the Eightfold Path. I believe that I can be mindful more often when I am relaxed.' Your letter raises many questions with regard to samatha and vipassan. Some people have accumulations to develop both samatha and vipassan; others develop only samatha and others again only vipassan. Both for the development of samatha and for the development of vipassan, it is essential to have right understanding of the way of development. It is felt by some that for samatha it is not necessary to know about realities, to know one痴 different types of citta, since one should, as they believe, just concentrate until sense-impressions are 澱lotted out. However, this is not the right way of development. If one starts to concentrate for example on breathing, without understanding when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta, one will take attachment to breathing for the calm which accompanies kusala citta. One does not know the difference between samatha and what is not samatha but merely a breathing- exercise. When one has a sensation of sense-impressions being blotted out one mistakenly believes that one has attained jh蚣a (absorption). We should understand which cause brings which effect. If one wants to apply oneself to mindfulness of breathing one should note that just concentration on one痴 breathing is not samatha. People concentrate on their breathing for various reasons: for example because it is good for one痴 health and it makes one feel more relaxed. --------- Nina. #96959 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi pt > I hope it's okay to ask here, I'm wondering about a few things regarding "purposeful" and "control" issues: > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- You're very welcome to ask. Questions like these are useful for us all to consider. > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- > 1.If a kusala citta is prompted by oneself (i.e. not as spontaneous as an unprompted kusala citta), would it still be considered not purposeful? > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- A prompted citta is one that is weaker and perhaps slower to arise than an unprompted one. However, whether the prompting is by another or by oneself, the fundamental conditions for its arising are the same as in the case of the unprompted citta, namely, previous accumulations of the same wholesome quality and the present opportunity for that particular kind of kusala. We need to remember that there are different kinds of conditions. So while useful reminders (one's own or another's) are helpful, and are a condition in that respect, they are not a prerequisite for the arising of kusala. > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- > 2.Can't an akusala citta condition a kusala citta? Like when doing something on purpose and that very doing (even if it is akusala) becomes the condition for kusala citta? > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- Yes, akusala citta can be a condition for kusala citta (an example would be giving a donation in part because of wanting to be seen as a generous person, i.e., conceit). But as just mentioned, different factors "condition" kusala in different ways. Here again, akusala citta is not a necessary condition for kusala to arise, whereas the conditioning factor of previous accumulations must always be there. > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- > 3.One of the jhana masteries is getting in and out of a jhana at will at any time when it is so desired. Is this not a purposeful act? > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- Conventionally speaking, it can be called a purposeful act. And it is similar when the enlightenment factors have been developed to the level of "powers" (baala). When a mental factor has been developed to a very high degree, it can be summoned up seemingly "at will". Like the anapanasati developer who can "set mindfulness to the fore." But these are still examples of previous accumulations conditioning the present arising. The accumulations are so incredibly strong, that they can be "prompted" to arise just by wishing/intending they do so. Also, there are limits to a jhana master's mastery. It cannot go on forever (the example of Maha Moggallana comes to mind). > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- > 4.I recently started samatha, and I don't think I'm close to jhana, but one of the by-products of samatha seems to be a lot of metta. It often arises on its own during the day, but I can also make metta arise at will in most cases. Like now there, it was just here while I was wishing you well, good health and freedom from suffering. The act seems very purposeful to me, so I'm having trouble understanding how it can be analised as not purposeful. > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- First of all, thanks for the good wishes! And the very best to you, too! The "act" seems purposeful because of the temporal proximity of the wish/intention for a particular mind-state to arise to the arising of the mind state. But we know from experience that there are also times when, even if we wished, it would not happen. We tend to instinctively do our wishing/intending at times when it has a good chance of "succeeding" ;-)) There's another question as to whether it's really kusala that's arising in these cases. But that's another issue ;-)) > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- > Thanks > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- And thanks to you for the thoughtful questions. Very pertinent to this thread. (Howard may wish to add his take to your questions, which will of course differ markedly from mine ;-)) Jon #96960 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:24 am Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey jonoabb Hi Scott > Scott: The Dasuttara Sutta, (Digha Nikaaya, 34) is said to be the basis for what is set out in Pa.tisambhidaamagga. ... > > These 'things' are dhammaa. The things to be 'thoroughly learnt' are: > > 1) 'All beings are maintained by nutriment.' > > 2) 'Two elements, the conditioned and the unconditioned.' > > 3) 'Three elements, the element of sense-desire, the element of form, the formless element.' > > 4) 'Four Noble Truths.' > > 5) 'Five bases of deliverance.' > > 6) 'Six unsurpassed things.' > > 7) 'Seven grounds for commendation.' > > 8) 'Eight states of mastery.' > > 9) 'Nine successive abidings.' > > 10) 'Ten causes of wearing away.' ('...by right view wrong view is worn away...many wholesome states are developed...', 'by right thought...', 'by right speech...', 'by right action...', 'by right livelihood...', 'by right effort...', 'by right mindfulness...', 'by right concentration...', 'by right knowledge...', 'by right liberation...many wholesome states are developed and perfected.' > > I'd say that it is quite consistent throughout in showing that learning about dhammas leads to the direct experience of dhammas. > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- Yes indeed. Below is the elaboration of item 5 in your list (the 5 bases of deliverance), which clearly indicates the importance of hearing and reflecting on the teachings as a condition for further development. Thanks very much for quoting this wonderful sutta. There's a lot of 'meat' in it! Jon PS I hadn't known, but there is now a Wiki-Pitaka! 9. Five bases of deliverance: here a/. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established; b/. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or c/. as he is chanting the Dhamma... or d/. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders over it and concentrates his attention on it; or e/. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight, and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established. http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Dasuttara_Sutta #96961 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi Howard > So it's our own experience that, in daily life, not all wholesome namas that > arise are immediately preceded by the factors you mention here of useful > thinking, willing or an idea of guarding the senses. > > Is there anything in what I've just said that you disagree with? > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is a "red letter day," Jon. I disagree with absolutely nothing that > you wrote above! :-) > ----------------------------------------------- A red letter day indeed! We have agreed that wholesome consciousness can arise without any input from the "person" at the time. At such moments there is an opportunity for the true characteristic of kusala to be known. And in time it may become apparent that when the same "kusala acts" are done with the idea of "developing more kusala", as opposed to them happening naturally and spontaneously, the same kusala characteristic is not present (or if present is much less so). Jon #96962 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:26 am Subject: Re: active vs passive verbs in pali used by the Buddha jonoabb Hi Alex > >Well firstly it actually says *extra* effort, which I understand to >be because of the urgency of the situation. > > > >And secondly it is not just effort but a number of (wholesome) >qualities, namely: > > - desire, > > - effort, > > - diligence, > > - endeavor, > > - undivided mindfulness, & > > - alertness > > The above qualities are active qualities! Not something that "just happens" by itself. They are neither "active" nor "passive". They are mental factors that arise by conditions. But to get back to the point we were discussing, the simile does not explain the nature of these mental factors or the conditions for their arising; it simply points to the urgency of their development. Jon #96963 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:19 am Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy gazita2002 hallo Han and others, I know very little Pali and wonder what 'taanhaadutiyo puriso' means in English? hope you are well, Han. patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > > Dear Sarah, Scott, Lukas, Ann & all, > > I have nothing more to add except to thank you and Scott for letting me know where else I can find [punappuna]. > > I also thanbk you for the following verse: > [Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso diigham addhaana.m sa.msara.m > Itthabhaava~ n~nathaabhaava. m sa.msaara.m naativattatii ti.] > > [Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso] reminds me the reminder by a Burmese Sayadaw. > He said that one who goes to the forest to meditate alone, should be careful that although physically he may be alone, he might have a companion next to him in the form of [Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso]! > > Best regards, > Han > #96964 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Singular Occupancy sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- On Mon, 30/3/09, han tun wrote: >I also thank you for the following verse: [Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso diigham addhaana.m sa.msara.m Itthabhaava~ n~nathaabhaava. m sa.msaara.m naativattatii ti.] [Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso] reminds me the reminder by a Burmese Sayadaw. He said that one who goes to the forest to meditate alone, should be careful that although physically he may be alone, he might have a companion next to him in the form of [Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso]! ... S: Thank you for this good reminder about ta.nhaadutiyo puriso too. What you write also reminds me of the Migajaala Sutta, about the lone-dweller (ekavihaarii) and the dweller with a partner (saduityavihaarii),SN 35:63 Migajaala asks the Buddha: " 'Venerable sir, it is said, 'a lone dweller, a lone dweller. In what way, venerable sir, is one a lone dweller, and in what way is one dwelling with a partner.?' " "ekavihaarii, ekavihaarit'ti, bhante, vuccati. Kittaavataa nu kho, bhante, ekavihaarii hoti, kittaavataa ca pana saduityavihaarii hott'ti?" The Buddha tells Migajaala that when one delights in the sense objects, one is in bondage and dwells with a partner. "Migajaala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus resorts to forests and groves, to remote lodgings where there are few sounds and little noise, desolate, hidden from people, appropriate for seclusion, he is still called one dwelling with a partner. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has not abandoned it; therefore he is called one dwelling with a partner." "...atha kho saduityavihaariiti vuccati. Ta.m kissa hetu? Ta.nhaa hissa dutiyaa, saassa appahiinaa. Tasmaa saduityavihaarii'ti vuccati." And of course, conversely, when there is no delight in the sense objects, one is a lone dweller. " 'Migajaala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and femaile lay followers, with kinds and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller.'" "....attha kho ekavihaariiti vuccati. Ta.m kissa hetu? Ta.nhaa hissa dutiyaa, saassa pahiinaa. Tasmaa ekavihaariiti vuccatii'ti." May we all learn to live as lone dwellers, ekavihaari, rather than as ta.nhaadutiyo puriso or saduityavihaarii, dwellers with a partner, ta.nha! Thanks for sharing your helpful reflections and reminders, Han. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you also for your good reminders and detail on Maara. ============== #96965 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Mon, 30/3/09, Alex wrote: >Sarah: Nibbaana literally means 'extinction' , so we need to be very clear about what kind of extinction we are talking about - extinction of >kilesa (defilements) at different stages or extinction of the >khandhas. ... A: Exactly. However, how can cessation of khandas (including consciousness) be an "object" be an object of consciousness! ... S: It can't be an object of consciousness and no one has suggested it can. Please consider going back over the thread and reading the quotes carefully. Nibbaana can be the object of (lokuttara) consciousness. At the moments of magga cittas, defilements are eradicated or attenuated, until the final eradication of all defilements at the stage of arahatship. Parinibbaana, the extinction of the khandhas, cannot be object of consciousness. .... >No-consciousness cannot be cognized! ... S: Let's keep this simple and say that after the last moment of consciousness of the arahat, the cuti citta, there is no more consciousness at all. Metta, Sarah ======== #96966 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:55 am Subject: Again and Again ..... christine_fo... Hello all, Somewhere ... I read a post quoting a sutta in full about the pointlessness of Sa.msaric life after life. It contained the words by the Buddha "Again and again ...." (repeated at the beginning of each line of the short sutta, about rebecoming ). I was in the middle of another task, and thought I would come back to the Sutta as it struck a chord with me. Now, I can't remember where I saw it .... and IT IS DRIVING ME CRAZY trying to find it. Can anyone help please .....? with hopeful metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #96967 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:30 am Subject: dukkha jati punappuna.m - Jaatipi dukkhaa, jaraapi dukkhaa, mara.nampi dukkha.m szmicio Dear Han,Sarah and friends Here is a quote from Saccavibhango, Vibhangapali.(PTS translation with its orginal transcription in paali) 4. Analysis of truth (Saccavibha"ngo) 1. Analysis according to the discourses (Suttantabhaajaniiya.m) <<189. Cattaari ariyasaccaani; dukkha.m ariyasacca.m, dukkhasamudaya.m [dukkhasamudayo (syaa.)] ariyasacca.m, dukkhanirodha.m [dukkhanirodho (syaa.)] ariyasacca.m, dukkhanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m.>> The Four Noble Truths are: The Noble Truth of suffering; the Noble Truth of the cause of suffering; the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering; the Noble Truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. 1. The Truth of suffering (Dukkhasacca.m) <<190. Tattha katama.m dukkha.m ariyasacca.m? Jaatipi dukkhaa, jaraapi dukkhaa, mara.nampi dukkha.m, sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaapi dukkhaa, appiyehi sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, ya.m piccha.m na labhati tampi dukkha.m, sa.mkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa.>> 190.Therein what is the Noble Truth of suffering? Birth is suffering; ageing is suffering; death is suffering; sorrow-lamentation-pain(physical)-mental pain-despair is suffering; association with the dislike is suffering; separation form the liked is suffering; not to get what one wishes, that also is suffering; in brief the five aggregates (as objects of) the attachements are suffering. <<191. Tattha katamaa jaati? Yaa tesa.m tesa.m sattaana.m tamhi tamhi sattanikaaye jaati sa~njaati okkanti abhinibbatti khandhaana.m paatubhaavo aayatanaana.m pa.tilaabho; aya.m vuccati jaati.>> 191.Therein what is birth? That which for this or that being in this or that category of beings is birth, genesis, entry, full existance, the appearance of the aggregates, the acquiring of the bases. This is called birth. <<192. Tattha katamaa jaraa? Yaa tesa.m tesa.m sattaana.m tamhi tamhi sattanikaaye jaraa jiira.nataa kha.n.dicca.m paalicca.m valittacataa aayuno sa.mhaani indriyaana.m paripaako aya.m vuccati jaraa.>> 192.Therein what is ageing? That which for this or that being from this or that category of beings is ageing, decrepitude, broken teeth, grey hair, wrinkled skin, the dwindling of life, decay of controling faculties. This is called ageing. <<193. Tattha katama.m mara.na.m? Yaa tesa.m tesa.m sattaana.m tamhaa tamhaa sattanikaayaa cuti cavanataa bhedo antaradhaana.m maccu mara.na.m kaalakiriyaa khandhaana.m bhedo ka.levarassa nikkhepo jiivitindriyassupacchedo; ida.m vuccati mara.na.m.>> 193.Therein what is death? That which for this or that being from this or that category of beings is decease, passing away, breaking up, disappearence, dying, death, the completion of the life-span, the breaking up of the aggregates, the laying down of the body, the destruction of the controlling faculty of vital principle. This is called death. <<194. Tattha katamo soko? ~Naatibyasanena vaa phu.t.thassa bhogabyasanena vaa phu.t.thassa rogabyasanena vaa phu.t.thassa siilabyasanena vaa phu.t.thassa di.t.thibyasanena vaa phu.t.thassa a~n~natara~n~natarena byasanena samannaagatassa a~n~natara~n~natarena dukkhadhammena phu.t.thassa soko socanaa socitatta.m antosoko antoparisoko cetaso parijjhaayanaa domanassa.m sokasalla.m aya.m vuccati soko.>> 194. Therein what is sorrow? (That which) To one afflicted by misfortune through relatives or to one afflicted by misfortune through wealth or to one afflicted by misfortune through disease or to one afflicted by misfortune through (corrupted) morality or to one afflicted by misfortune through wrong view or to one possesed of one misfortune or another or to one afflicted by one painful thing or another is sorrow, being sorry, the state to being sorry, inner sorrow. This is called sorrow. <<195. Tattha katamo paridevo? ~Naatibyasanena vaa phu.t.thassa bhogabyasanena vaa phu.t.thassa rogabyasanena vaa phu.t.thassa siilabyasanena vaa phu.t.thassa di.t.thibyasanena vaa phu.t.thassa a~n~natara~n~natarena byasanena samannaagatassa a~n~natara~n~natarena dukkhadhammena phu.t.thassa aadevo paridevo aadevanaa paridevanaa aadevitatta.m paridevitatta.m vaacaa palaapo vippalaapo laalappo laalappanaa laalappitatta.m [laalapo laalapanaa laalapitatta.m (syaa.)] aya.m vuccati paridevo.>> 195. Therein what is lamentation?(That which) To one afflicted by misfortune through relatives or to one afflicted by misfortune through wealth or to one afflicted by misfortune through disease or to one afflicted by misfortune through (corrupted) morality or to one afflicted by misfortune through wrong view or to one possesed of one misfortune or another or to one afflicted by one painful thing or another is crying, lamentation, the act of crying, the act of lamantation, the state of crying, the state of lamentation,(sorrowful) talk,wailing,sorrowful murmuring, the act of sorrowful murmuring, the state of sorrowful murmuring. This is called lamentation. <<196. Tattha katama.m dukkha.m? Ya.m kaayika.m asaata.m kaayika.m dukkha.m kaayasamphassaja.m asaata.m dukkha.m vedayita.m kaayasamphassajaa asaataa dukkhaa vedanaa ida.m vuccati dukkha.m.>> 196. Therein what is pain? That which is bodily uneasiness, bodily pain, uneasy painful experiences born of bodily contact, uneasy painful feeling born of bodily contact. That is called pain. <<197. Tattha katama.m domanassa.m? Ya.m cetasika.m asaata.m cetasika.m dukkha.m cetosamphassaja.m asaata.m dukkha.m vedayita.m cetosamphassajaa asaataa dukkhaa vedanaa ida.m vuccati domanassa.m.>> 197. Therein what is mental pain? That which is mental uneasiness, mental pain, uneasy painful experience born of mental contact, uneasy painful feeling born of mental contact. This is called mental pain. ---------------------------------- To be continue. #96968 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey buddhatrue Hi Jon and Sukin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi James (and Kevin) > > > ----------------- > > James: I just read this and sigh to myself. First, there is no such thing as an "intellectual level" of panna. Panna is not of the nature of the intellect. Any self-perceived, so called, "intellectual level of panna" is really just conceit. > > ----------------- > > In a post to Sukin a short time later you say: > "Of course one has to begin with "Right View", which is an intellectual understanding of the Dhamma." > > Are you having a bet both ways on this one? ;-)) James: No, of course not, you are just focusing in on what you want to read (as usual). But, honestly, I am too tired to continue this discussion. I have been having massive stomach problems and so I went to see a Chinese herbalist doctor this weekend. She put me on a very strict diet for two weeks with medicine three times a day. I have gone to Western doctors a few months ago and they haven't helped at all. So, I am just too weak to get into this with you and Sukin. Maybe when my strength returns. Metta, James #96969 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:41 am Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy hantun1 Dear Azita, > Azita: I know very little Pali and wonder what 'taanhaadutiyo puriso' > means in English? > hope you are well, Han. Han: I am well, Azita. Thank you very much. [ta.nhaadutiyo puriso] = ta.nhaa + dutiya + purisa ta.nhaa = craving dutiya = the second, a companion purisa = a man ta.nhaa-dutiyaa = having ta.nhaa as one窶冱 companion (or) ta.nhaa-dutiya-purisa = having ta.nhaa as a second man. Please also read the explanation by Sarah: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/96964 [The Buddha tells Migajaala that when one delights in the sense objects, one is in bondage and dwells with a partner. "Migajaala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus resorts to forests and groves, to remote lodgings where there are few sounds and little noise, desolate, hidden from people, appropriate for seclusion, he is still called one dwelling with a partner. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has not abandoned it; therefore he is called one dwelling with a partner."] Best regards, Han #96970 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:01 am Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for quoting SN 35:63 Migajaala sutta, where the Buddha explains about a lone dweller (ekavihaarii), and one dwelling with a partner (saduityavihaarii), and your reminder that we all learn to live as lone dwellers, ekavihaari, rather than as ta.nhaadutiyo puriso or saduityavihaarii, dwellers with a partner, ta.nha! Kind regards, Han #96971 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Again and Again ..... hantun1 Dear Chris, Please try the following links: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/96842 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/96850 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/96942 Han --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Christine Forsyth wrote: From: Christine Forsyth Subject: [dsg] Again and Again ..... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 5:55 PM Hello all, Somewhere ... I read a post quoting a sutta in full about the pointlessness of Sa.msaric life after life. It contained the words by the Buddha "Again and again ...." (repeated at the beginning of each line of the short sutta, about rebecoming ). I was in the middle of another task, and thought I would come back to the Sutta as it struck a chord with me. Now, I can't remember where I saw it .... and IT IS DRIVING ME CRAZY trying to find it. Can anyone help please .....? with hopeful metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #96972 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/31/2009 5:25:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > So it's our own experience that, in daily life, not all wholesome namas that > arise are immediately preceded by the factors you mention here of useful > thinking, willing or an idea of guarding the senses. > > Is there anything in what I've just said that you disagree with? > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is a "red letter day," Jon. I disagree with absolutely nothing that > you wrote above! :-) > ----------------------------------------------- A red letter day indeed! We have agreed that wholesome consciousness can arise without any input from the "person" at the time. ----------------------------------------------------- Because there is no person (except as an aggregation of phenomena conceived of as an individual). We have *not* agreed that purposeful actions are impotent. ---------------------------------------------------- At such moments there is an opportunity for the true characteristic of kusala to be known. And in time it may become apparent that when the same "kusala acts" are done with the idea of "developing more kusala", as opposed to them happening naturally and spontaneously, the same kusala characteristic is not present (or if present is much less so). ---------------------------------------------------- Here you are saying things that are "yours," and not "mine." So, Jon, perhaps the "red letter" is a faded red. --------------------------------------------------- Jon ========================= With metta, Howard *(Anonymous) #96973 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:35 am Subject: Re: dukkha jati punappuna.m - Jaatipi dukkhaa, jaraapi dukkhaa, mara.nampi dukkha.m hantun1 Dear Lukas, Thank you very much for your post on Saccavibhango, Vibhangapali. I look forward to the continuations. Yours truly, Han #96974 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Again and Again ..... upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 3/31/2009 6:56:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Hello all, Somewhere ... I read a post quoting a sutta in full about the pointlessness of Sa.msaric life after life. It contained the words by the Buddha "Again and again ...." (repeated at the beginning of each line of the short sutta, about rebecoming ). I was in the middle of another task, and thought I would come back to the Sutta as it struck a chord with me. Now, I can't remember where I saw it .... and IT IS DRIVING ME CRAZY trying to find it. Can anyone help please .....? with hopeful metta Chris ============================= It may well be the following. (BTW, I think the translation is terrible, especially the use of 'transmigration' instead of 'rebirth' and 'transmigrating' instead of 'being reborn'.) With metta, Howard SN 15.3 Assu Sutta Tears Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: S ii 179 CDB i 652 ____________________________________ Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. ____________________________________ Copyright ﾂｩ 1997 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition ﾂｩ 1997 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. ____________________________________ At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time 窶 crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing 窶 or the water in the four great oceans?" "As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time 窶 crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing 窶 not the water in the four great oceans." "Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me. "This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time 窶 crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing 窶 not the water in the four great oceans. "Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time 窶 crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing 窶 are greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time 窶 crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing 窶 are greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries 窶 enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." #96975 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Singular Occupancy sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- On Tue, 31/3/09, han tun wrote: >Thank you very much for quoting SN 35:63 Migajaala sutta, where the Buddha explains about a lone dweller (ekavihaarii) , and one dwelling with a partner (saduityavihaarii), and your reminder that we all learn to live as lone dwellers, ekavihaari, rather than as ta.nhaadutiyo puriso or saduityavihaarii, dwellers with a partner, ta.nha! ... S: Actually, I've always appreciated the many reminders in the Teachings about the deeper meaning of living alone, regardless of the circumstances -living alone with understanding and detachment now. Here is another one on 'ekavihaaro', living alone without the partner, ta.nha! (Actually, re-quoting from some posts I've writtten before and just adding a few Paali words for those like yourself who appreciate them:-): In the Thera Sutta (SN 21:10 'A Bhikkhu Named Elder, in the B.Bodhi transl.), it seems a number of bhikkhus thought it was strange for Thera to live alone, go for alms alone, return alone, sit and walk alone and so they raised the issue with the Buddha. The Buddha summoned Thera who confirmed he lived and followed all these activities alone and also praised living alone. The Buddha didn't disagree, but said : "That is a way of dwelling alone, Elder, I do not deny this. But as to how dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail, listen to that and attend closely, I will speak." "Yes, venerable sir." "And how, Elder, is dwelling alone fulfilled in detail? Here, Elder, what lies in the past has been abandoned, what lies in the future has been relinquished, and desire and lust for present forms of individual existence has been thoroughly removed*. It is in such a way, Elder, that dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail." This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this: "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, Liberated in the destruction of craving: I call that person 'one who dwells alone.' "** "Sabbaabhibhu.m sabbavidu.m sumedha.m, Sabbesu dhammesu anuupalitta.m; Sabba~njaha.m ta.nhaakkhaye vimutta.m, Tamaha.m nara.m ekavihaariiti bruumii'ti dasama.m." ========== From B.Bodhi's notes: *"Spk: The past is said to be abandoned (pahiina.m) by the abandoning of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the past; the future is relinquished (pa.tinissa.t.tha.m) by the relinquishing of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the future." **"Spk: All-conqueror (sabbaabhibhu.m): one who abides having overcome all aggregates, sense bases, and elements, and the three kinds of existence. Unsullied (anupalitta.m, or 'unstuck') among those very things by the paste (lepa) of craving and views. Liberated in the destruction of craving (ta.nhakkhaye vimutta.m): liberated in Nibbaana, called the destruction of craving by way of the liberation that takes this as its object." ========== S: We can see that whether we're in the forest or in a busy city, surrounded by family members and friends, or on our own, there are still just six doorways. Usually our partner ta.nha keeps us company all day from when we wake up to when we go to sleep as the various objects are experienced through these doorways. The only way that ta.nha can ever be conquered is through the development of right understanding and associated factors - understanding of the dhammas which make up our life now. Thanks for helping me to reflect out loud as usual, Han. Reflecting on the true meaning of 'living alone' again helps me not to think about or feel 'alone' or 'lonely' in a conventional sense while Jon's away! Metta, Sarah ====== #96976 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:03 am Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy szmicio Dear Sarah > " 'Migajaala, even though a bhikkhu who dwells thus lives in the vicinity of a village, associating with bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, with male and femaile lay followers, with kinds and royal ministers, with sectarian teachers and their disciples, he is still called a lone dweller. For what reason? Because craving is his partner, and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller.'" > > "....attha kho ekavihaariiti vuccati. Ta.m kissa hetu? Ta.nhaa hissa dutiyaa, saassa pahiinaa. Tasmaa ekavihaariiti vuccatii'ti." > > May we all learn to live as lone dwellers, ekavihaari, rather than as ta.nhaadutiyo puriso or saduityavihaarii, dwellers with a partner, ta.nha! > L: Thats a good reminder. Really. But sometimes I've got doubts: maybe Buddha refers here only to ariya, which eradicted tanha now? And maybe those words are not for us.?? This great courage which you, Nina, KS have is so big support to me. But in Tipitaka, When Buddha was talking about Magga or "practice", that's mostly talking about lokuttara-cittas which accompany ariyas. I've got this strong feeling that Buddha-Dhamma is ceasing now. There is no one who can understand it now. In the times of Buddha people understood so fast. Even one speach from Buddha can liberate them. When people sit and did anapanasati, they did not think about breath, they knew namaa nad ruupa, from the very begining, when they took a breath in they were aware of nama and rupa. When they breath out they were aware of nama and ruupa. When Buddha talked to them, the first step on the Path began from attainment of sottapanna. But now all has changed, we try to do this and that. Concentrate here and there. Sometimes I think that Buddha never thought that this could happen. Don't you think that some teachings are no longer actual? Sometimes I like to think about Path that always when there is right understanding of hearing and seeing then its Magga. But that's not true because Buddha said that first moment of Magga is only when the 1st lokuttaracitta is present. #96977 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:11 am Subject: Re: dukkha jati punappuna.m - Jaatipi dukkhaa, jaraapi dukkhaa, mara.nampi dukkh szmicio Dear Han I also thank you for your dukkha jati punappuna.m and your comments on taanhaadutiyo puriso. Those were very helpful to me. I've tried to edit my post. But this engine from yahoo groups is always adding its own marks and format it in its own way. But I hope it's still clear to read. > Thank you very much for your post on Saccavibhango, Vibhangapali. > I look forward to the continuations. #96978 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:29 am Subject: DSG photo album sarahprocter... Hi Connie (Lukas, Chris & all), Thanks for adding a pic of you (I assume) and your sweet-looking grand-daughter into the 'significant others' photo album. [For others, the pic is titled 'rupa stiltskin'! Perhaps you also have one with your mother and daughter as well?] It was also fun connecting by skype with you for the first time yesterday -thanks for getting up so early in preparation (3 a.m.!!). For others, she was buried in Sammohavinodanii (comy. to the Vibhanga) when I called... a true test of a book-worm. When one has a similar understanding of dhammas and reading the same messages every day, not much to talk about. We agreed about the 6 doorways and nothing being missed by not leaving Seattle district...it's all the same wherever one is. Some might prefer not to hear about uncontrollable dhammas which are so very anatta, but there's no escape from them! And Connie had just returned from a trip to visit her daughter and the sweet-looking little girl - a week of reading children's books and without DSG or the library, but again, just the usual partners following one around. Anyway, neither of us are 'telephone or skype' folk, but we both agreed that this one was pretty painless:-). Actually, we can never thank Connie enough for all the great assistance she gives us behind the scenes with DSG - in particular, the manual backing up of the entire archives of DSG on a non-yahoo website (www.dhammastudygroup.org) which means that if yahoo or the group disappeared for any reason, the archives would still be accessible. For down-loading the archives to read off-line or searching, it's also a great resource. I remember Rob M downloading the entire archives from the site to read on flights and at airports. Btw, if anyone else wants a *quick*, 'painless' skype while Jon's away and I have more time, let me know. Tomorrow, I'm also meeting up with Jessica for a live dhamma chat again. Also, Lukas, I forget if I thanked you for adding your Poland pics into the DSG photo album. Good to see you and your friends. If anyone else has any pics of themselves or 'significant others', pls do add them. [Perhaps Chris, you might add your Metta Sutta reminder-roll-call for pics!] Metta, Sarah ========= #96979 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:52 am Subject: Re: DSG photo album szmicio Dear Sarah > We agreed about the 6 doorways and nothing being missed by not leaving Seattle district...it's all the same wherever one is. L: I am forgeting about 6 doors constantly. Think about people and things again and againa[punappuna.m]. > Some might prefer not to hear about uncontrollable dhammas which are so very anatta, but there's no escape from them! L: Yes, but moha was developed for so long. Moha is a dhatu. What is the characteristic of moha now? Can moha be a condition for right understanding? When there is moha there is no pa~n~na. What's the characteristic of pa~n~na? > Also, Lukas, I forget if I thanked you for adding your Poland pics into the DSG photo album. Good to see you and your friends. L: My friends drink to much bear recently ;> My best wishes Lukas #96980 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:51 am Subject: Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Jon. Having a hard time keeping up at present. I will try to answer these as I am able. [Help!....Stop arising conditions now!....] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > -------------------- > > It is a problem in the first place to keep citta from appearing to be a 'recieving entity' that is aware of dhamma. To give this power to each mental factor as well certainly increases the appearance of aware beings arising and disappearing, in my view. > ... > > How are they aware? What form do they take to be aware of something? Citta is formless is it not? It is like a clear window, not a thing. Once you have multiple experiencing elements, you have a series of forms, do you not? I am sorry if this does not communicate well. > ... > > What does it mean to 'be an element?' Does it have a form during its duration before it falls away? Or only a function? And if a function, what does this function work through, the citta? Or independently? > > -------------------- > > Jon: An interesting series of questions. Would you mind explaining a bit about what you understand the term "dhammas", as used by the Buddha in the suttas, to mean. That might help us understand better where you're coming from. Thanks. Well, if I were real clear about it I probably wouldn't need to ask all those interesting questions. The image of a "dhamma" that I have from the Abhidhamma perspective so far is of a "perceived quality" through one of the sense-doors, such as hardness etc. I am not personally convinced that objects appear as separated individual qualities in this way. It seems unlikely to me, but I understand the concept. It is part of "one citta at a time," and "only one experient/dhamma per citta," and "no hybrid dhammas/only single quality at a time." The concept breaks down experience as one would the features of a specimen under a microscope, which leads to a very serious analysis, but may not reflect the living reality of how the things occur in situ, live. Unless we are arahants, we probably can't verify this for ourselves at present, so it is either a matter of faith, logic, experience, understanding, or common sense by which we determine it. If we grant that a single dhamma/experient arises for one citta which grasps it, experiences and then falls away along with its dhamma, it still does not settle the issue of whether the citta is doing the experiencing all by itself or whether its "fellow traveller" cetasikas are merely modifying the experience for the citta, or doing their own separate version of experiencing the dhamma either at the same time or just before or after, however it is deemed to take place. If the cetasika is meant to give the citta a certain aspect of the experience -- for instance, panna would give it a clear correct understanding of what it is experiencing -- then the question would arise how does the "panna" or other cetasika transmit its perception of the dhamma to the citta? It makes a very complicated model even more complicated. And why is it necessary to even postulate this? Why can't the cetasika be like a filter on a camera that "colors" the experience for the lens [citta] rather than being yet another camera itself which will then have to download its experience to the citta in the brief period of time that they exist. And doesn't this the create two separate versions of the dhamma which then need to be coordinated? How is citta's perception different from panna's or eye-door's or kusala's? How do they coordinate and merge into that one single dhamma that everyone insists on? You start getting multiple versions of the simple dhamma model which then have to be blended up. > > -------------------- > > I think there is a problem when descriptions of absence or understanding or turned into tangible properties in their own right. Anatta and anicca are not objects themselves, they are realizations about objects. One sees that a dhamma is subject to anicca, but there is no "anicca" to be found in a dhamma. It's a realization that it is impermanent. Impermanence is not itself a thing. > > -------------------- > > Jon: Anicca, dukkha and anatta are known as the 3 characteristics, i.e., characteristics *of dhammas*. Yes, but that doesn't settle the issue at all. As Bill Clinton might have liked to say, 'what does *of* mean?' Does it mean that they are thingies that are riding along on the dhamma? Does it mean that they are actual marks that are visible on the dhamma? Or does it mean what poor little I think it means, which is that they are not part of the dhamma at all, but understandings *about* the dhamma. Anicca is not a thing. It is a concept that stands for the understanding that "things pass away, they are not substantial or permanent; they are in a continuous process of becoming, breaking down and passing away." Anicca means that the dhamma is insubstantial and impermanent. It is not an actual *mark of* anything. It is a knowledge of panna *about* the dhamma. It seems that this school of Abhdidhamma interpretation has the tendency to take understandings and perceptions and turn them into actual things, that is to say entities, rather than seeing that they are principles of the way dhammas work. If I say, "Oh I just noticed that my wife has left the room," "Left the room" is not a characteristic of my wife, it is something I have understood about where she is or is not. It has nothing to do with *her characteristics,* but of something *about* her movement in space or time. Likewise, anicca is not substantial. If you take the concept of insubstantiality and impermanance, it is quite perverse to then make that substantial in its own right and reify it into a thing in its own right. Anatta is not a "characteristic" in the sense of "belonging" to the object, or you are increasing its entity, whereas anatta is meant to show that there is no entity to the dhamma in the first place, that it is empty of entity and is just a passing development within one's experience. It comes and goes and has no final substantial form, and so doesn't exist as an x or a y. That is why paramatha dhamma is problematic as well. If "hardness" is x and only x, then for that brief moment it is a substantial defineable entity in its own right, with boundaries, characteristics and own-being. This seems to me to be against the grain of the Buddha's teaching of the nature of reality. Oh well, I've said too much. I must learn to study more and say less. Thanks, Jon. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = #96981 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey jonoabb Hi James > > Are you having a bet both ways on this one? ;-)) > > James: No, of course not, you are just focusing in on what you want to read (as usual). But, honestly, I am too tired to continue this discussion. I have been having massive stomach problems and so I went to see a Chinese herbalist doctor this weekend. She put me on a very strict diet for two weeks with medicine three times a day. I have gone to Western doctors a few months ago and they haven't helped at all. Sorry to hear about your health problems. Hoping you get some relief form the Chinese herbal treatment. My best wishes for a speedy recovery. Jon #96982 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:01 pm Subject: Re: Singular Occupancy hantun1 Dear Sarah, I thank you once again for quoting SN 21:10 A Bhikkhu Named Elder. I also appreciate your following comments: [S: We can see that whether we're in the forest or in a busy city, surrounded by family members and friends, or on our own, there are still just six doorways. Usually our partner ta.nha keeps us company all day from when we wake up to when we go to sleep as the various objects are experienced through these doorways. The only way that ta.nha can ever be conquered is through the development of right understanding and associated factors - understanding of the dhammas which make up our life now. Thanks for helping me to reflect out loud as usual, Han. Reflecting on the true meaning of 'living alone' again helps me not to think about or feel 'alone' or 'lonely' in a conventional sense while Jon's away!] Best regards, Han #96983 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dukkha jati punappuna.m - Jaatipi dukkhaa, jaraapi dukkhaa, mara.nampi dukkh hantun1 Dear Lukas, I can read your post alright. Thank you very much. I also notice that the engine from yahoo groups is always adding its own marks and format it in its own way. If I type apostrophe and quotation marks they are changed into un-readable letters. So I have to use square brackets instead of quotation marks. Han --- On Tue, 3/31/09, szmicio wrote: From: szmicio Subject: [dsg] Re: dukkha jati punappuna.m - Jaatipi dukkhaa, jaraapi dukkhaa, mara.nampi dukkh To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:11 PM Dear Han I also thank you for your dukkha jati punappuna.m and your comments on taanhaadutiyo puriso. Those were very helpful to me. I've tried to edit my post. But this engine from yahoo groups is always adding its own marks and format it in its own way. But I hope it's still clear to read. > Thank you very much for your post on Saccavibhango, Vibhangapali. > I look forward to the continuations. #96984 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:39 pm Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey sukinderpal Dear James, > James: No, of course not, you are just focusing in on what you want to read (as usual). But, honestly, I am too tired to continue this discussion. I have been having massive stomach problems and so I went to see a Chinese herbalist doctor this weekend. She put me on a very strict diet for two weeks with medicine three times a day. I have gone to Western doctors a few months ago and they haven't helped at all. > > So, I am just too weak to get into this with you and Sukin. Maybe when my strength returns. I hope this one works. Do take good rest and care. Wish you a speedy recovery. Metta, Sukin #96985 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi Howard > We have agreed that wholesome consciousness can arise without any input from > the "person" at the time. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Because there is no person (except as an aggregation of phenomena > conceived of as an individual). We have *not* agreed that purposeful actions are > impotent. > ---------------------------------------------------- Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we've agreed that wholesome consciousness can and does arise in a day without any purposeful action having to immediately precede it. > And in time it may become apparent that when the same "kusala acts" are done > with the idea of "developing more kusala", as opposed to them happening > naturally and spontaneously, the same kusala characteristic is not present (or if > present is much less so). > ---------------------------------------------------- > Here you are saying things that are "yours," and not "mine." So, Jon, > perhaps the "red letter" is a faded red. > --------------------------------------------------- I was not presenting that as part of what had been agreed, but as a follow-on for further discussion (but only if you're so inclined, of course). Jon #96986 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:28 pm Subject: Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E > Having a hard time keeping up at present. I will try to answer these as I am able. [Help!....Stop arising conditions now!....] > ---------------------------------------------------- ;-)), ;-)) > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Jon: An interesting series of questions. Would you mind explaining a bit about what you understand the term "dhammas", as used by the Buddha in the suttas, to mean. That might help us understand better where you're coming from. Thanks. > > Well, if I were real clear about it I probably wouldn't need to ask all those interesting questions. The image of a "dhamma" that I have from the Abhidhamma perspective so far is of a "perceived quality" through one of the sense-doors, such as hardness etc. I am not personally convinced that objects appear as separated individual qualities in this way. It seems unlikely to me, but I understand the concept. ... > ---------------------------------------------------- Just pausing there. I was hoping to hear something about what *you understand the term "dhammas", as used by the Buddha in the suttas*, to mean. I think you have focussed on your reservations about the Abhidhamma perspective as you understand it. (And made a lot more work for yourself in doing so!) I will of course be replying to your comments. But separately, would you mind saying a few words about your own understanding of the "dhammas" spoken of so frequently in the suttas (i.e., without reference to the Abhidhamma or other positions that you may disagree with). Thanks. Jon #96987 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ANAPANSATI detail jonoabb Dear Silananda To my understanding, any form of samatha development starts with a recognition of moments of kusala in daily life. For example, there is metta arising from time to time in a day. Unless those moments are known as kusala, and the moments that are not metta (but may seem like it) are known as akusala, there cannot be the kind of development that we find discussed in the Vism, etc. The same applies as regards anapanasati. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sl穗anda wrote: > > Hi, > > Nina wrote: > > First we have to be clear about it whether this is a matter of doing or > observing. This is a basic principle and if we are not clear about it there > cannot be anapanasati. > > Thus, first we should talk more on nama and rupa. .... Listening, > considering, more understanding of nama and rupa are indispensable here. It > is of no use just trying to concentrate on breath if there is no > understanding of nama and rupa. > > Some questions: > Where does a beginner on anapanasati start? With a clear knowledge of the > breath ... being a matter of doing or observing? With an understanding of > nama rupa first? That is impossible. > > Please clarify then. > > mahakaruna, > ~sila #96988 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:40 pm Subject: Re: ANAPANSATI detail jonoabb Hi Sachin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sachin bahade wrote: > > please tell, how we know I am doing the ANAPANSATI in right way. How i know that i am observing the natural breath. as it is. A good question. But first I'd like to consider this: why anapanasati in particular (i.e., why not metta, kasina, recollection of the Buddha, etc)? Thanks for bringing up the subject. Jon #96989 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:46 pm Subject: Re: lobha jonoabb Hi Lucas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Kevin > > moha, not knowing realities as they are. > > > What causes lobha? I agree with this (that ignorance is the root cause of lobha), but would be interested to hear your comments on exactly what the connection is. Thanks. Enjoying reading your posts. Jon #96990 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:59 pm Subject: Re: sila and the first stage of holiness jonoabb Hi Arjan And welcome to the list from me. > -------------------------- > The reason why I bring this up in the first place is that I come from a Christian background in which morality for me was a bit of an angst ridden thing. When dealing with sila in Buddhism this unhelpful mindset easily props up again. > I therefore take courage in the idea that sila is not essential, > -------------------------- Right. For the layperson there is no vow to be taken because, as you will know, only at stream entry is sila properly purified. There is no suggestion of guilt or failure associated with a breach of sila. > -------------------------- (although verry helpful). > -------------------------- Yes. The *training* in sila is strongly encouraged, because it is a great support for the development of insight. But it's important to recongnise one's strengths and weaknesses, and not to have unrealistic expectations. > -------------------------- And of course sila understood in the proper buddhist way is a pleasure. > -------------------------- Agreed. Nice talking to you. Jon #96991 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] pariyati sarahprocter... Hi Azita, Always good to read your reflections - --- On Sun, 22/3/09, gazita2002 wrote: >the Buddha said 'to whatsoever one frequently gives attention and repeatedly reflects on, to that the mind will turn'. >was thinking about the above in relation to pariyati. If one frequently gives attention to and reflects on the dhamma - as the liberating law discovered and proclaimed by the Buddha [buddhist dict.] - then can this become a condition for the arising of patipatti, and one day, pativedha? ... S: Yes! If it's 'right' pariyatti. .... >I guess this depends on whether there is the idea of 'I can do this'. For example, if the next hour was given to dhamma study with an idea "I will study now so that awareness will/can arise" this is wrong view. ... S: Yes! This is then not pariyatti. Anyone can study the book... ... >However, while studying one may begin to see that the dhamma is about conditions which occur quite beyond anyone's control. Just naamas and ruupas arising and falling away time after time after time....... ... S: Yes, again! And only one reality appearing now at a time to be directly known. So it all comes down to the understanding of this dhamma appearing now - being alone with the visible object or seeing or sound or hearing or whatever appears - not the name or label. Looking forward to any more of your reflections or quotes from notebooks/recordings. Metta, Sarah ========= #96992 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:03 pm Subject: The Real Richness is Mental Wealth! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Faith is the Seed, Hand, and Wealth of Beings! What is real Richness? Bhikkhus, when a Noble Disciple possesses 4 things, then he is said to be rich, with much wealth and prosperous property. What four? Here, Bhikkhus, a Noble Disciple possesses the faith of confirmed confidence in the Buddha ... in the Dhamma ... and in the Sangha.... He possesses the moral purity that is praised by the Noble Ones, unbroken ... untorn ... pure ... intact ... leading to absorbed concentration.... Any Noble Disciple, who possesses these 4 things is indeed really quite rich, with much heavy wealth and a lush property.... SN V 402 Buddha to the Ploughman: Faith is my seed, simplicity the rain, Understanding my yoke and plough, Modesty is pole, & mind is the strap, Awareness is my ploughshare and goad! Sn77 Suffering is the cause of Faith... Elated Joy is the effect of Faith... Entrance is the function of Faith... Trusting is the characteristic of Faith... Decisiveness is the manifestation of Faith... Faith is the Hand, that lifts one out of Suffering... Faith is the Seed, that makes one grow much good... Faith is the Real Wealth, since it produces advantage... Vism XIV 140 How does Faith save one from pain? When one has faith in the Tathagata, Unshakable and quite well established, And good behaviour built on morality, Liked by the Noble Ones and praised! When one has confidence in the Sangha, And a view, that has been made straight! Then they say, that one is not poor, That one's life is not wasted... Therefore should any intelligent person, aware of the Buddha-Dhamma, be devoted to the fine faith & moral purity, which gives confirmed conviction in this saving Dhamma. SN V 405 Alavaka once asked the Blessed Buddha: What wealth here is best for any man? What well practiced brings happiness? What is the sweetest of all the flavours? How lived, is this life best? The Buddha: Faith is the best wealth here for any human! Dhamma well practiced brings happiness! Truth indeed is unsurpassable sweet! A wise life lived in understanding is best... Alavaka: How does one cross the flood of ills? How is the ocean of existence crossed? How is all suffering stilled? How is one purified? The Buddha: By Faith is the flood of evil crossed! By attention is existence crossed! By effort is all suffering stilled! By wisdom one is purified! Sn 182-184 Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samﾄ�hita, Sri Lanka * Faith is therefore the only Real Richness! The prime Mental Wealth... #96993 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:20 pm Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... szmicio Dear Jon and Pt > > 1.If a kusala citta is prompted by oneself (i.e. not as spontaneous as an unprompted kusala citta), would it still be considered not purposeful? > A prompted citta is one that is weaker and perhaps slower to arise than an unprompted one. However, whether the prompting is by another or by oneself, the fundamental conditions for its arising are the same as in the case of the unprompted citta, namely, previous accumulations of the same wholesome quality and the present opportunity for that particular kind of kusala. L: That's true. I think no matter citta is prompted or not. It arises and falls away in the same way. It's also conditioned in the same way. > We need to remember that there are different kinds of conditions. So while useful reminders (one's own or another's) are helpful, and are a condition in that respect, they are not a prerequisite for the arising of kusala. L: Yes, I think kusala can arise because of old conditiones. > > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- > > 2.Can't an akusala citta condition a kusala citta? Like when doing something on purpose and that very doing (even if it is akusala) becomes the condition for kusala citta? > > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- > > Yes, akusala citta can be a condition for kusala citta (an example would be giving a donation in part because of wanting to be seen as a generous person, i.e., conceit). L: There are also similar examples in Tipitaka, but I dont think so that is a correct and exact example of kusala citta being conditioned by akusala. It's just a simile, and it's OK. But only pa~n~na can know how it all happens. I think that is a matter of direct understanding of realities. But of course these examles are very helpful. > > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- > > 3.One of the jhana masteries is getting in and out of a jhana at will at any time when it is so desired. Is this not a purposeful act? > > 末末末末末末末末末末末末- L: Well,pt.In some extent it's true. Look at each Sutta and you will see, that Buddha always taught to develop this and that. Develop kusala and abadon what is akusala - those are his words. But that's all conditioned. Each moment is conditioned, everything no matter what we think of it. Reading and hearing Dhamma is a condition to develop more understanding. Buddha knew about it. His wisdom penetrated all dhammas. He knew conditions for right understanding. That's why he taught Suttas for so long. He knew also the value of kusala better then anybody of us. In our daily lifes we think so much about 'mine','me' and that we can control realities. But is it right understanding? Or is it moha which was develop for so long? moha doesnt see realities as they are. moha isnt ours, it's anatta. There is a Sutta about what was not said and what was said by Blessed One. How we understand it? Abhasita Sutta "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata." L: It can happen when we explain something to someone that we arent sure and then claim that was Buddha words. This Sutta is about cittas. No one can control whether citta is kusala or not. It just happens. But such reminders are a condition to more kusala. But there is no one who can develop anything. When we said something wrong that we dont like then we have a lot of aversion to what we said. Think that we are 'doing' something wrong. But this teaching is about paramattha dhammas. We can see that this is anatta. Even when we say something, it's always the matter whether citta is kusala or not. We cannot control what we'll say. what we think of. We cannot choose. When there are proper conditions for right understanding, there will be right understanding. When there are conditions for jhana, there will be jhana. When there are conditions for right speach, there will be right speach. Reading and hearing Dhamma is so good reminder. Buddha knew about it, and thats why he taught Sutta first, but then in Abhidhamma he explained it all carefuly again. He think of us, because we cannot understand Dhamma just reading Suttas. We have to read Dhamma in details. I am no sure you understand what i am writing(problems to express), but recently in my life i see each sutta as paramattha dhammas. And find it as a good reminder. When Buddha were talkin about fools he always has so many compasion, he saw just dhammas, no matter what has happend. I think citta has its own characteristic. My best wishes Lukas #96994 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Mon, 30/3/09, szmicio wrote: > >S:To add a little more on this from Sammohavinodanii, (PTS, Class. Of > Aggregates, 132f): > > " 'As to the distinction' : [that is] as to the distinction between > 'aggregates' (khandha) and 'aggregates [as objects] of clinging' > (upaadaanakkhandha) . >L: That's very good distincion. It reminds me that reading and hearing Dhamma is a condition for understanding. >>S:But what is the distinction between them? > 'Aggregates' in the first place is said without distinction; but > 'aggregates [as objects] of clinging' [is said] distinguishing those which > are subject to cankers and are to be clung to > (saasava-upaadaanii ya-bhaavena) , according as it is said...." ... >L: Yes, but only one dhamma at a time can be object to clining? When there is no attachement there is no upaadaanakhandha. ... S: Exactly! You're pointing to the 2nd NT. ... >When there is lobha, what object it has? ... S: Any conditioned dhamma (other than the lokuttara dhammas), i.e any khandha (or concepts about such khandhas, such dhammas). ... >when lobha arises with citta, all accompanied cetasikas are akusala, then lobha condition citta and all cetasikas by way of hetupaccaya. ... S: Yes. This is why all those excellent descriptions of lobha in the Dhsg and Atth. are under hetupaccaya, root-condition. It's a very powerful condition. .... >so all cetasikas are object of clinging at that time? ... S: No, the cetasikas accompany lobha which clings to its object. They all perform their own functions. .... > > Katame dhammaa saasavaa? Kusalaakusalaabyaak ataa dhammaa > > kaamaavacaraa, ruupaavacaraa, aruupaavacaraa; ruupakkhandho ...pe... > > vi~n~naa.nakkhandhoﾃ｢竄ｬ" > > ime dhammaa saasavaa. >L: So each dhamma except nibbana and eight lokuttara-cittas is saasavaa? ... S: Yes, subject to the aasavaas. Atth. [369]: "In the expostion of the Intoxicants (Dhs 1096 Aasavaa), the lust of the five pleasures of sense is called the 'intoxicant of sensuality.' Passionate desire for life in a heaven of attenuated matter, and of immaterial existence, longing for jhaana, lust co-existent with an eternalistic view are called the 'intoxicant of rebirth,' as being desire applied to rebirth. The sixty-two heresies are known as the 'intoxicant of views.' Lack of knowledge regarding eight points [i.e. 4NT, past, future, or both, and causal genesisis] is the intoxicant of ignorance." Lots more good detail is given, but I have to rush to get ready to meet Jessica (from DSG), so no time for more or for any Pali! Metta, Sarah ======== #96995 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm Subject: Re: lobha - eko dhammo...avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti? szmicio Hello Jon > > moha, not knowing realities as they are. > > > > > What causes lobha? > > I agree with this (that ignorance is the root cause of lobha), but would be interested to hear your comments on exactly what the connection is. Thanks. Enjoying reading your posts. > > Jon Here is Avija Sutta:(SN XXXV.79) <<6. Pa.thamaavijjaapahaanasutta.m 79. Atha kho a~n~nataro bhikkhu yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami…pe… ekamanta.m nisinno kho so bhikkhu bhagavanta.m etadavoca – ‘‘atthi nu kho, bhante, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti? ‘‘Atthi kho, bhikkhu, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti. ‘‘Katamo pana, bhante, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti? ‘‘Avijjaa kho, bhikkhu, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti. ‘‘Katha.m pana, bhante, jaanato, katha.m passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti? ‘‘Cakkhu.m kho, bhikkhu, aniccato jaanato passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjati. Ruupe… cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m… cakkhusamphassa.m… yampida.m, cakkhusamphassapaccayaa uppajjati vedayita.m sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi aniccato jaanato passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjati…pe… mana.m aniccato jaanato passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjati. Dhamme… manovi~n~naa.na.m… manosamphassa.m… yampida.m manosamphassapaccayaa uppajjati vedayita.m sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi aniccato jaanato passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjati. Eva.m kho, bhikkhu, jaanato eva.m passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti. Cha.t.tha.m.>> But I haven't got english translation of this passage. My best wishes Lukas #96996 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:57 pm Subject: Re: lobha - eko dhammo...avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti? szmicio 6. Pa.thamaavijjaapahaanasutta.m 79. Atha kho a~n~nataro bhikkhu yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkamipe ekamanta.m nisinno kho so bhikkhu bhagavanta.m etadavoca atthi nu kho, bhante, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti? Atthi kho, bhikkhu, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti. Katamo pana, bhante, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti? Avijjaa kho, bhikkhu, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti. Katha.m pana, bhante, jaanato, katha.m passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti? Cakkhu.m kho, bhikkhu, aniccato jaanato passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjati. Ruupe cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m cakkhusamphassa.m yampida.m, cakkhusamphassapaccayaa uppajjati vedayita.m sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi aniccato jaanato passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatipe; mana.m aniccato jaanato passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjati. Dhamme manovi~n~naa.na.m manosamphassa.m yampida.m manosamphassapaccayaa uppajjati vedayita.m sukha.m vaa dukkha.m vaa adukkhamasukha.m vaa tampi aniccato jaanato passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjati. Eva.m kho, bhikkhu, jaanato eva.m passato bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatiiti. Cha.t.tha.m. ---- edited #96997 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 12:13 am Subject: Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m szmicio Dear Sarah >so all cetasikas are object of clinging at that time? ... S: No, the cetasikas accompany lobha which clings to its object. They all perform their own functions. So only one dhamma can be an object to clinging at a time. But each namakhandha is then conditioned by lobha by way of hetupaccaya. So all 5 khadhas are then upaadaana khandhas or just one that is object to clinging? My best wishes Lukas #96998 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 12:17 am Subject: [dsg] ANAPANSATI: no 2. nilovg Dear Sachin and friends, Mindfulness of breathing is among the meditation subjects of samatha and as such it is quite different from any other kind of concentration on breathing. The aim of samatha is to be less attached to sense-impressions, and, in order to reach this aim, it is essential that there is right understanding of the way to develop true calm. True calm is wholesome, at that moment there are no lobha, dosa or moha. We read about people in the Buddha痴 time who could develop calm to the degree of jh蚣a. When jh蚣a is attained defilements are temporarily eliminated, but they are not eradicated. There are many misunderstandings about the development of samatha and if it is not developed in the right way one develops wrong concentration, micch-sam蘚hi, instead of calm. I have heard people say that they want to become less restless and to have more calm, and that they therefore want to apply themselves to samatha. However, do they know the real meaning of restlessness and calm? 迭estlessness, in P虱i uddhacca, is akusala. It is a cetasika which arises with each akusala citta: with lobha-mla-citta (citta rooted in attachment), with dosa-mla-citta (citta rooted in aversion) and with moha-mla-citta (citta rooted in ignorance). It prevents the citta from wholesomeness. Uddhacca is different from what one in conventional language calls 途estlessness. When we use the word 途estlessness in conventional language we usually think of aversion and unpleasant feeling. People dislike unpleasant feeling and they like pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. However, pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling can accompany both kusala citta and akusala citta. If one pays attention only to feeling and one does not know when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta one痴 life is very confused. For instance, when one is in quiet surroundings, one may be attached to quietness and thus there are at that moment lobha-mla-cittas which can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Since lobha-mla-citta is akusala citta it is accompanied by restlessness. Or, there may be moha-mla-cittas which are accompanied by indifferent feeling. Moha-mla-citta is also accompanied by restlessness. Thus, when the feeling is pleasant or indifferent, the citta may be akusala citta and in that case it is inevitably accompanied by restlessness. Although one believes that one is calm at that moment, one still has restlessness. ******** Nina. #96999 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Again and Again ..... christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Chris, > ｿｽ > Please try the following links: > ｿｽ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/96842 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/96850 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/96942 > ｿｽ > Han > > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, Christine Forsyth wrote: > > From: Christine Forsyth > Subject: [dsg] Again and Again ..... > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 5:55 PM > > > > > > > Hello all, > > Somewhere ... I read a post quoting a sutta in full about the pointlessness of Sa.msaric life after life. > It contained the words by the Buddha "Again and again ...." (repeated at the beginning of each line of the short sutta, about rebecoming ). > > I was in the middle of another task, and thought I would come back to the Sutta as it struck a chord with me. > Now, I can't remember where I saw it .... and IT IS DRIVING ME CRAZY trying to find it. > Can anyone help please .....? > > with hopeful metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > Hello Han Tun, Howard, all, Thank you for your assistance. Yes, it was mentioned in one of the links you gave me Han. :-) I also asked about it in the Classical Forum on DhammaWheel list and Ajahn Dhammanando posted the following: punappunaﾃｱceva vapanti bﾄｫja盪, punappuna盪 vassati devarﾄ）ﾄ. punappuna盪 khetta盪 kasanti kassakﾄ, punappuna盪 dhaﾃｱﾃｱamupeti ra盪ｭ盪ｭha盪. punappuna盪 yﾄ…akﾄ yﾄ…ayanti, punappuna盪 dﾄ］apatﾄｫ dadanti. punappuna盪 dﾄ］apatﾄｫ daditvﾄ, punappuna盪 saggamupenti 盪ｭhﾄ］a盪. punappuna盪 khﾄｫranikﾄ duhanti, punappuna盪 vaccho upeti mﾄ》ara盪. punappuna盪 kilamati phandati ca, punappuna盪 gabbhamupeti mando. punappuna盪 jﾄ【ati mﾄｫyati ca, punappuna盪 sﾄｫvathika盪 haranti. maggaﾃｱca laddhﾄ apunabbhavﾄ【a, na punappuna盪 jﾄ【ati bhﾅｫripaﾃｱﾃｱo ti. The four verses are spoken by the Buddha in the Udaya Sutta (SN. i. 173-4; Connected Discourses I. 268-9) and by the arahant Kﾄ≪ｸｷudﾄ【ﾄｫ in the Theragatha. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the verses is: [The Blessed One] "Again and again, they sow the seed; Again and again, the sky-god sends down rain, Again and again, ploughmen plough the field Again and again, grain come to the realm. "Again and again, the mendicants beg; Again and again, the donors give; When donors have given again and again, Again and again they go to heaven. "Again and again, the dairy folk draw milk; Again and again, the calf goes to its mother; Again and again, one wearies and trembles; Again and again, the dolt enters the womb; Again and again, one is born and dies; Again and again, they take one to the cemetery; "But when one has obtained the path That leads to no more renewed existence, Having become broad in wisdom, One is not born again and again!" metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- =========== * Howard's signature blocks: == A change in anything is a change in everything (Anonymous) == Entrances to holiness are everywhere. The possibility of ascent is all the time, even at unlikely times and through unlikely places. There is no place without the Presence. (From Mishkan T'filah, the new Reform prayerbook) == He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none - such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. (From the Uraga Sutta) == Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains "going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it" and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. (From the Avarana Sutta) == Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream. (From the Diamond Sutra) == When knowing what is to be known, he doesn't construe an [object as] known. He doesn't construe an unknown. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-known. He doesn't construe a knower. (The Buddha, speaking of himself in the Kalakarama Sutta) == See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance. (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) == Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. (From the Sacitta Sutta) == "Rouse yourself! Sit up! What good is there in sleeping? For those afflicted by disease (suffering), struck by the arrow (craving), what sleep is there? "Rouse yourself! Sit up! Resolutely train yourself to attain peace. Do not let the king of death, seeing you are careless, lead you astray and dominate you. "Go beyond this clinging, to which devas and men are attached, and (the pleasures) they seek. Do not waste your opportunity. When the opportunity has passed they sorrow when consigned to Niraya-hell. "Negligence is a taint, and so is the (greater) negligence growing from it. By earnestness and understanding withdraw the arrow (of sensual passions)." (From the Utthana Sutta) == "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' (From AN 2.19) ==