#97000 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/1/2009 1:24:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > We have agreed that wholesome consciousness can arise without any input from > the "person" at the time. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Because there is no person (except as an aggregation of phenomena > conceived of as an individual). We have *not* agreed that purposeful actions are > impotent. > ---------------------------------------------------- Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we've agreed that wholesome consciousness can and does arise in a day without any purposeful action having to immediately precede it. ------------------------------------------------ No, you're not wrong. The key word is 'immediately'. For sure you are right in this. I completely agree. ------------------------------------------------ > And in time it may become apparent that when the same "kusala acts" are done > with the idea of "developing more kusala", as opposed to them happening > naturally and spontaneously, the same kusala characteristic is not present (or if > present is much less so). > ---------------------------------------------------- > Here you are saying things that are "yours," and not "mine." So, Jon, > perhaps the "red letter" is a faded red. > --------------------------------------------------- I was not presenting that as part of what had been agreed, but as a follow-on for further discussion (but only if you're so inclined, of course). -------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for the clarification. I think I'll be happy to leave things as they stand for a while, basking in the pleasure of some small agreement. ;-) --------------------------------------------------------- Jon ========================= With metta, Howard /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #97001 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Jon), Thanks for all your good points and quotes on the importance of hearing and considering the teachings, the various dhammaa, as condition for direct understanding and realisation of them. Certainly the various sections in the Pa.tisambhiaamagga which you refer to make this very clear. Indeed the entire set of teachings is for suta-maya pa~n~naa (knowledge based on hearing), leading to cinta-maya pa~n~naa and bhaavanaa-maya pa~n~naa. This is why the text starts off with: "'Ime dhammaa abhi~n~neyyaa' ti sotaavadhana'm, ta'mpajaananaa pa~n~naa sutamaye ~naa.na'm...." "The ear is applied thus: These ideas (dhammaa) are to be directly known. Understanding as the acto of understanding that is knowledge of what consists in the heard (learnt)...." as Scott, you've pointed out. --- On Mon, 30/3/09, Scott wrote: Scott: The Dasuttara Sutta, (Digha Nikaaya, 34) is said to be the basis for what is set out in Pa.tisambhidaamagga . This sutta has a fairly long (and somewhat repetitive) set of 'things' enumerated. The pattern that this enumeration follows sets out these 'things' in terms of those that, 1) 'greatly help' (dhammo bahukaaro); 2) are 'to be developed' (dhammo bhaavetabbo) ; 3) are 'to be thoroughly known' (dhammo pari~n~neyyo) ; 4) are 'to be abandoned' (dhammo pahaatabbo); 5) '[conduce] to diminution' (dhammo haanabhaagiyo) ; 6) '[conduce] to distinction' (dhammo visesabhaagiyo) ; 7) are 'hard to penetrate' (dhammo duppa.tivijjho) ; 8) are 'made to arise' (dhammo uppaadetabbo) ; 9) are 'to be thouroughly learnt' (dhammo abhi~n~neyyo) ; and, 10) 'to be realised' (dhammo sacchikaatabbo) . >These 'things' are dhammaa. The things to be 'thoroughly learnt' are: <...> S: Just on this point - I think it's clear from all the many references to abhi~n~neyyo in the Psm in this chapter, that it refers to the dhammaa to be directly understood or known. Abhi~n~naa - having understood well, abhi~n~neyya - that which should be well understood as in the line at the beginning: 'Ime dhammaa abhi~n~neyyaa'. ...... >I'd say that it is quite consistent throughout in showing that learning about dhammas leads to the direct experience of dhammas. ... S: Yes, the 'right' hearing and considering which is the condition to appreciate these dhamma are to be directly known, leading to the direct knowing and realisation of the Truths. Anyway, I'm sure we're all in agreement here....I may have just misunderstood the comment about 'dhammo abhi~n~neyyo' and its translation of 'learnt'. Metta, Sarah ======== #97002 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 6:29 am Subject: A leisurely 'Dhamma' afternoon tea with Jessica sarahprocter... Hi Jessica & (Nina, Jon & all), [A bit of a ramble as I'm rather tired as I write now....but will post anyway] You mentioned you're going away for a long weekend to your idyllic temple retreat setting, so you probably won't see this for a few days. As I mentioned, we had all enjoyed having your lively participation at the discussions in Bangkok in February and appreciated your keen questioning of Abhidhamma detail and daily dhamma practice in particular. I wondered how you had found the discussions on further reflection. You mentioned you had listened to recordings a lot for a couple of weeks afterwards and that, in a sense, K.Sujin's explanations were very simple. However, we're always pursuing our various wrong views and attachments, looking for practices to follow, actions to take by 'Self' and so the Teachings are very difficult and subtle too. I thought these were all good comments. We discussed how easily we slip into an idea of following a practice, thinking about it in terms of situations, rather than as an understanding of the dhamma appearing now. I suggested there is an idea of 'Self' behind all these ideas of 'trying to do', 'following a practice' and so on. However, several times you questioned whether it isn't necessary or even useful to have such an idea or follow such a wrong view as a condition for right understanding to arise. For example, you suggested, if we go on a retreat to Myanmar or on a Goenka course and then hear the Dhamma, surely the wise reflection was conditioned by the attachment for awareness or insight or even wrong view? Isn't this also the same when we go to the Foundation and listen to Sujin? Isn't this attachment leading to wise reflection? We discussed about different moments of consciousness - akusala, kusala, akusala, kusala. It seems that it's the attachment that leads to right understanding, but in fact, I suggested, the understanding arises in spite of the attachment. The conditions for the right understanding are the hearing of the Dhamma and the wise attention, rathe than the attachment. Also, I think that the closer we come to understanding dhammas, the less concerned we are about the different 'situations'. Right understanding can arise anytime, any place. We discussed about the meaning of the Noble Eightfold Path and how in an ultimate sense it refers to the lokuttara cittas as a Sayadaw had mentioned to you. I referred in passing to MN 117 and the definitions of Right Understanding with and without the taints remaining, referring to mundane and supramundane pa~n~naa. More in 'Useful Posts' under: 'Maha-cattarisaka Sutta (MN 117)' You also mentioned you'd been studying and talking about MN20 and I mentioned this has always been a very controversial sutta here and suggested you might like to take a look at the following in 'Useful Posts' too: 'Vitakka-Santhana Sutta, MN20 (Removal of Distracting Thoughts)'. Nina has translated and included much of the commentary in a series here. As I said, I find it helpful when reading any sutta to remember there are only conditioned dhammas. People like to consider what action to take, how to avoid akusala and so on, but in the end, what arises now depends on accumulations from long, long ago and the results of kamma from long, long ago too. We discussed how restlessness, for example, arises with every akusala citta, even in the forest or idyllic retreat setting. We never know from moment to moment what accumulations may arise and the aim of the Teachings is not to change our personality or avoid akusala, but to understand the dhammas which have arisen with detachment, instead of more clinging to kusala states, such as clinging to awareness or insight. We discussed a little on sila, samadhi and panna and how in the development of insight they develop together. I think you mentioned that in your experience, it didn't seem apparent that samma ditthi really was the 'leader'. I think you were suggesting that some meditative practice seemed to be the condition for right understanding to take root. However, you'd have to elaborate further on this as I'm probably mis-paraphrasing you. Sometimes we're concerned about the others' ideas or lack of understanding, but we both strongly agreed that this is irrelevant and that what matters is our 'own' understanding and practice now, at this moment. We also discussed, in connection with the unpredictability of accumulations, how some of the Buddha's disciples lives and lifestyles had changed dramatically. You kindly reminded me about Maha Kassapa's lifestyle before he ordained in complete contrast to his lifestyle as the leading ascetic. [Perhaps you'd care to give your own summary, with reflections, here for others if it's not too tiresome.] We discussed a little more on different accumulations, different interests and so on. I tend to remember conversations, esp. dhamma discussion topics, but often don't recognise people (even those I see frequently), am hopeless in the kitchen with very little patience and am always losing things. A lot of this comes down to chanda, different interests accumulated - mostly akusala of course! Anyway, it's always a pleasure meeting up with you, Jessica. You're always very considerate in any arrangements and I appreciate all you many projects, translating texts, sharing the Dhamma with other friends, assisting teachers and so on. Please correct any of my errors above. (As we discussed, it's helpful to be able to receive corrections gracefully!) I'll look forward to our next get-together here or in Bangkok. We'll keep in touch about our plans in that regard. I'll welcome any other comments too. Metta, Sarah p.s thank you (and your father too) for the kind gift of the organic green tea - I'm sure it must be much healthier than the tea-bags I usually use. ======= #97003 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 6:35 am Subject: Re: sila and the first stage of holiness avalo1968 Hello Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Right. For the layperson there is no vow to be taken because, as you will know, only at stream entry is sila properly purified. There is no suggestion of guilt or failure associated with a breach of sila. > > Yes. The *training* in sila is strongly encouraged, because it is a great support for the development of insight. But it's important to recongnise one's strengths and weaknesses, and not to have unrealistic expectations. > I would be interested in your interpretation of hiri and ottappa, in light of your statement about there being no suggestion of guilt or failure associated with a breach of sila. and, what is this *training*? Regards, Robert A. #97004 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey nilovg Hi James, I am sorry to hear about your sickness and join Sukin in his good wishes. The medicine plus Dhamma, which is the best medicine. Reading suttas may help you. Nina. Op 1-apr-2009, om 4:39 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > I have been having massive stomach problems and so I went to see a > Chinese herbalist doctor this weekend. She put me on a very strict > diet for two weeks with medicine three times a day. #97005 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: effort. sarahprocter... Hi Rob Ep, I got a little behind with our discussion thread, but you were probably glad to take a rest:-). --- On Thu, 26/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: >Well if we are just saying that it is an event that arises, that seems different to me than saying that all these mental factors are individually experiencing it. That means that they each have consciousness. It is one thing for citta to be the experiencing element, but if these separate elements are each aware and not just part of the mechanism, they are like little conscious beings in a sense, all collaborating. I hope this makes sense. If not, I am not sure whether I can make it much clearer. ... S: Let me try to explain. There is no 'event' which arises. There are different dhammas, different namas and rupas which arise and fall only. As soon as we have an idea of an amalgamated 'whole' or 'event', we are no longer talking about these dhammas. At any moment, there is a citta (consciousness) arising and experiencing an object. This citta is always, always accompanied by a minimum of seven cetasikas (mental factors) experiencing the same object. The citta is the leader in experiencing the object, but could not experience it without the assistance of the cetasikas. For example, it needs concentration to 'focus on' the object, contact to 'touch' the object, feeling to 'taste' the object and so on. Each cetasika has a particular function to perform. Each has a particular characteristic. Concentration is quite distinct from feeling, for example. There are no beings involved at all. This is the point of understanding these particular dhammas now as performing these functions; we're used to thinking in terms of Self concentrating and feeling, whereas in fact it is the function of transitory, self-less dhammas. .... >It is a problem in the first place to keep citta from appearing to be a 'recieving entity' that is aware of dhamma. To give this power to each mental factor as well certainly increases the appearance of aware beings arising and disappearing, in my view. ... S: Let's go back to the example you gave of washing the dishes, as this seems pretty 'real' to you. There are the moments of cittas (bodily consciousness) experiencing softness or hardness, heat or cold. Then there are moments of cittas (mind-door thinking cittas) experiencing various ideas or concepts about the experiences, such as about the hot water, the dirty dishes and so on. The cittas only experience the objects. It is the accompanying cetasikas (mental factors) which 'feel' the heat, 'attend' to the object, 'focus on' what is experienced and so on. No entities or beings involved, but there are definitely dhammas or elements involved. .... >> S: Cittas and cetasikas arise momentarily, perform their functions of experiencing an object and then fall away. No atta is involved. R:> How are they aware? What form do they take to be aware of something? Citta is formless is it not? It is like a clear window, not a thing. Once you have multiple experiencing elements, you have a series of forms, do you not? I am sorry if this does not communicate well. ... S: Take seeing consciousness - At a moment of seeing now, there is just the experiencing of what is seen, the visible object. Seeing doesn't take any form - as you say it's formless. Similarly, the cetasikas which accompany it, all experience the same visible object, but they, themselves, are also formless. They are just the realities which experience the object at that moment, performing particular functions. No forms involved in these namas. .... S: I think I'll leave the other points for now (#96834), but feel free to raise them again anytime. Basically, I think the ones you raise above are really important to get clear, so I'd be grateful if you'd question further on these and share your reflections on my comments above. We all learn in this way. Thanks again, Rob. Metta, Sarah ========= #97006 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 7:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbana is NOT THE ALL> sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Wed, 25/3/09, Alex wrote: > >Scott: "...Just as there is made known, on account of the fact that it is >capable of being fully understood, an escape from sense-desires and > forms that have that which surpasses them, which [escape] consisting of that which is their opposite, has as its own nature that which is the antithesis thereof, so does there have to be an escape from all conditioned states having that as their own nature, [which escape], consisting of that which is their opposite, has as its own nature that which is the antithesis thereof. And that escape is the unconditioned element..." > > >Sarah:Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata) things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations(sankhara ), so are all conditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not witnessed... ...there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is tha tof hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, northe fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose characteristic is that of distending.. ....absence therein of the four great elements, the absence of all derived materiality. ...absence. .of any becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the states belonging to becoming in the formless > (sphere), ‘Nor that base consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither perception > nor non-perception’.” .... A: >The above sounds like obfuscation of the issue regarding what Nibbana is. Replace the word Nibbana with the Self and we have a really sophisticated Atta vada. ... S: My experience is that often what seems like an 'obfuscation of the issue' in the Theravada teachings is in fact a red flag indicating my own ignorance. If the passages are not clear - and I'll be the first to admit that almost anything I read is subtle, very subtle and often not understood by me - you're most welcome to ask for any further explanation we (or someone else) may be able offer. If you prefer to consider Nibbana, as taught in these texts, as referring to a 'sophisticated Atta vada', that's fine too. Metta, Sarah ====== #97007 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Where is sila & samadhi? sarahprocter... Hi Alex (& Kevin), --- On Thu, 26/3/09, Alex wrote: >In The Anguttara 9.12 & AN1.231 it is said that stream enterer fulfills sila but has limited samadhi & panna pannaya mattaso kari (insignificant wisdom) but fulfills virtue (sila). Anagamin fulfills sila & samadhi but has limited panna Arhat has full sila, samadhi, panna. So the order of perfection is: sila then Samadhi, THEN PANNA (wisdom). Panna gets fulfilled LAST and it does depend on Samadhi which depends on Sila. ... S: An there is no fulfilling of sila (adhi-sila) or samadhi (adhi-citta) without panna. So they both depend on panna for their fulfilment. This is why panna is given as the forerunner, like the dawn. "Monks just as the dawn is the forerunner, the harbinger, of the arising of the sun, even so is right view the forerunner, the harbinger of fully comprehending the four noble truths" SN (?) Metta, Sarah ====== #97008 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 8:06 am Subject: Re: A leisurely 'Dhamma' afternoon tea with Jessica szmicio Dear Sarah > We discussed a little more on different accumulations, different interests and so on. I tend to remember conversations, esp. dhamma discussion topics, but often don't recognise people (even those I see frequently) L: That's nice to hear. The same with me ;> Sometimes I remember everything so clear. Some facts from past discussions. But another time I dont remember anything. I cannot remember even what i was doing yestarday. That's so good reminder, it teaches me that everything is anatta, we cannot control anything. Sanna remembers, not we. Once I had to take my antibiotics and stayed in the kitchen for some time, trying to remember whether I took it or not. Then there was emptiness in my head. Then I realized that i took it before(but it takes me some time to realise it.). Everything is so fleeting, arise on its own conditions. I cant find Lukas anywhere. One moment, then another. Like this simile about flame of candle(cant find it now). just dhammas. Here is a quote from Vajira Sutta: 'Just as when, with an assemblage of parts, there's the word chariot, even so when aggregates are present, there's the convention of living being. For only stress is what comes to be; stress, what remains & falls away. Nothing but stress comes to be. Nothing ceases but stress.' (SN 5.10: Vajira Sutta) My best wishes Lukas #97009 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 8:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A leisurely 'Dhamma' afternoon tea with Jessica sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Wed, 1/4/09, szmicio wrote: > We discussed a little more on different accumulations, different interests and so on. I tend to remember conversations, esp. dhamma discussion topics, but often don't recognise people (even those I see frequently) L: That's nice to hear. The same with me ;> ... S: I keep saying we have a lot in common ;> Actually, I said that to Jessica too... ... >Sometimes I remember everything so clear. Some facts from past discussions. But another time I dont remember anything. I cannot remember even what i was doing yestarday. ... S: Same, same.... ... >That's so good reminder, it teaches me that everything is anatta, we cannot control anything. Sanna remembers, not we. ... S: Yes, and who knows what sanna will mark and remember from moment to moment....(usually nonsense in my case...)/ ... >Once I had to take my antibiotics and stayed in the kitchen for some time, trying to remember whether I took it or not. Then there was emptiness in my head. Then I realized that i took it before(but it takes me some time to realise it.). Everything is so fleeting, arise on its own conditions. ... S: OK, I have one to match....sometimes I just can't remember whether I've brushed my teeth or not.... I stand dithering around and end up thinking I'd better brush them again to be on the safe side... As for cooking - when Jon was last away, I cooked one meal and almost had a fire on my hands, so now I don't attempt it. I just stick to congee in a congee pot which I can just about manage and always eat my lunches (or brunches) out. I used to think it was getting older....until I'd start asking my students to give short talks about the books they'd just finished reading. Many of the students couldn't even remember the names of the main characters a day after finishing the books.... As you say, it all depends on conditioned sanna and other factors like chanda. .... >I cant find Lukas anywhere. One moment, then another. Like this simile about flame of candle(cant find it now). just dhammas. ... S: Yes, this is just what Jessica and I were touching on - different accumulations arising unexpectedly. I like the way you put it - not finding Lukas anywhere... Thx again for the sutta and all your good refs. Metta, Sarah ======== #97010 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 5:26 pm Subject: Re: sila and the first stage of holiness jonoabb Hi Robert A > I would be interested in your interpretation of hiri and ottappa, in light of your statement about there being no suggestion of guilt or failure associated with a breach of sila. > Good question. As you'll remember, the context was the feelings of guilt experienced (by Arjan) for committing a sin or otherwise acting contrary to the Church's dicta. Such feelings of guilt, with unpleasant feeling predominating, are akusala (or, more correctly, involve some level of akusala consciousness). The mental factors of hiri and ottappa, on the other hand, are wholesome mental factors that arise with every wholesome consciousness. They are not in any way associated with unwholesome thinking about acts already done (and for this reason the translations of "guilt" and "remorse" are unfortunate) > and, what is this *training*? The commandments are generally regarded as absolute rules (hence the name commandments, I suppose), whereas when Buddhist lay folk undertake the 5 precepts they do so on the basis that they will do their best to observe them. The words traditionally recited on such occasions are (Pali spelling not guaranteed) are: - [paanaatipaata veramanii] sikhaapadam samaadiyaami - I undertake the training of [abstaining from taking life] I was pointing to this difference in emphasis. Since you've raised the point, however, I should add that such "taking of the precepts" is not directly mentioned in the suttas. In the suttas the references to sila are to actual restraint from akusala, rather than to any resolving to exercise such restraint, as I understand it. Thanks for chipping in. Jon #97011 From: mlnease Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 6:15 pm Subject: Precepts and Siila m_nease Hi Jon, jonoabb wrote: > Since you've raised the point, however, I should add that such "taking > of the precepts" is not directly mentioned in the suttas. In the suttas > the references to sila are to actual restraint from akusala, rather than > to any resolving to exercise such restraint, as I understand it. This is interesting. It reminded me of a couple of translations that seem to me to refer to the keeping of precepts for the uposatha. Do you think I'm misreading them or that the translations are faulty? mike "Visakha, when the Uposatha undertaken with its eight component practices, is entered on, it is of great fruit, of great advantage, of great splendor, of great range. And how, Visakha, is the Uposatha undertaken with its eight component practices, entered on, is of great fruit, great advantage, great splendor and great range? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.043.khan.html One should not kill a being or take what is not given; should not tell a lie or be a drinker of strong drink; should abstain from uncelibacy, the sexual act; should not eat at night, the wrong time of day; should not wear a garland or use a scent; should sleep on a pallet, a mat spread on the ground for this eight-factored Uposatha has been proclaimed by the Awakened One to lead to the end of suffering & stress. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.070.than.html #97012 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 6:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey buddhatrue Hi Nina, Jon, Sukin, and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > I am sorry to hear about your sickness and join Sukin in his good > wishes. The medicine plus Dhamma, which is the best medicine. Reading > suttas may help you. > Nina. Thanks all for your well wishes. As I wrote to Sarah off-list, the food in Taiwan is not very sanitary when eating out or eating any prepared food, and it seems to be getting worse lately (or maybe I am just getting worse :-). So, I am trying to cook more for myself lately but since I am a lazy and terrible cook, that is difficult. :-) I also have to avoid eating chicken, fried foods, and drinking milk. For three days all I could eat was rice porridge. Anyway, this is a good lesson in the Dhamma as the Buddha taught moderation in one's eating. Now, I have to eat moderately and be mindful of everything I eat. Yes, Dhamma is the best medicine- so I have been meditating more frequently lately and reading a few suttas. Metta, James #97013 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 7:05 pm Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila jonoabb Hi Mike How nice to see you! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, mlnease wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > jonoabb wrote: > > > Since you've raised the point, however, I should add that such "taking > > of the precepts" is not directly mentioned in the suttas. In the suttas > > the references to sila are to actual restraint from akusala, rather than > > to any resolving to exercise such restraint, as I understand it. > > This is interesting. It reminded me of a couple of translations that > seem to me to refer to the keeping of precepts for the uposatha. Do you > think I'm misreading them or that the translations are faulty? > > mike > > "Visakha, when the Uposatha undertaken with its eight component > practices, is entered on, it is of great fruit, of great advantage, of > great splendor, of great range. And how, Visakha, is the Uposatha > undertaken with its eight component practices, entered on, is of great > fruit, great advantage, great splendor and great range? > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.043.khan.html > > One should not kill a being > or take what is not given; > should not tell a lie > or be a drinker of strong drink; > should abstain from uncelibacy, the sexual act; > should not eat at night, the wrong time of day; > should not wear a garland or use a scent; > should sleep on a pallet, a mat spread on the ground > for this eight-factored Uposatha > has been proclaimed by the Awakened One > to lead to the end > of suffering & stress. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.070.than.html Yes, interesting. My understanding would be as mentioned earlier, namely, that the observance (or undertaking) of the Uposotha is a matter of actual restraint, and that the act of resolving to restrain if a situation should arise does not actually fall within the 8 factors mentioned. Does that seem consistent with the passage as quoted to you? Jon #97014 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 8:17 pm Subject: Re: sila and the first stage of holiness avalo1968 Hello again Jon, Thank you for your reply. Regards, Robert A. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert A > > > I would be interested in your interpretation of hiri and ottappa, in light of your statement about there being no suggestion of guilt or failure associated with a breach of sila. > > > > Good question. > > As you'll remember, the context was the feelings of guilt experienced (by Arjan) for committing a sin or otherwise acting contrary to the Church's dicta. > > Such feelings of guilt, with unpleasant feeling predominating, are akusala (or, more correctly, involve some level of akusala consciousness). > > The mental factors of hiri and ottappa, on the other hand, are wholesome mental factors that arise with every wholesome consciousness. They are not in any way associated with unwholesome thinking about acts already done (and for this reason the translations of "guilt" and "remorse" are unfortunate) > > > and, what is this *training*? > > The commandments are generally regarded as absolute rules (hence the name commandments, I suppose), whereas when Buddhist lay folk undertake the 5 precepts they do so on the basis that they will do their best to observe them. The words traditionally recited on such occasions are (Pali spelling not guaranteed) are: > - [paanaatipaata veramanii] sikhaapadam samaadiyaami > - I undertake the training of [abstaining from taking life] > > I was pointing to this difference in emphasis. > > Since you've raised the point, however, I should add that such "taking of the precepts" is not directly mentioned in the suttas. In the suttas the references to sila are to actual restraint from akusala, rather than to any resolving to exercise such restraint, as I understand it. > > Thanks for chipping in. > > Jon > #97015 From: westbankj@... Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 5:20 pm Subject: Emptiness farrel.kevin Ann, thank you so much for the welcome! Nina, thank you so much for the book! I'd like to talk about the Mahayana idea of emptiness. A lot of times, I have explained to meditators that all dhammas are anattaa. They usually say, "yes, I know of course", but continue thinking there is a dharmin that should meditate. They don't get the fact that all dhammas really are anattaa, fully. There is no controllability. Well, Not only is that the case but also all dhammas are also completely empty. Because they are empty they are not just void of self, anatta, they are empty of any inherent existence. They appear to arise. But this is only to the uninstructed. Being absolutely empty (please try to see their emptiness the way someone who fully comprehends that "all dhammas are anattaa" really takes the dhammas to be anattaa and not their self), they lack any real existence. They appear to rise and fall away but in reality, dhammas are unarisen. On the relative level, the way things appear, dhammas are real and they arise based on conditions. On the ultimate level, they are unmanifest. The view that I hold is the view of freedom from extremes. It is beyond everything. Dharmas are not arising and falling away, there is just vast emptiness. It is like a seed and a sprout. First there is just the seed, then a sprout grows from that seed. The seed has not been destroyed when the sprout emerges. It is not gone. Yet, the seed is not the sprout. It has no inherent existence in and of itself. It hasn't disappeared because it has sprouted, but it is no longer a seed. Likewise, it is not the sprout. Just that way is the way phenomena exist. They appear to have an inherent existence but they do not. Kevin #97016 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 1, 2009 11:46 pm Subject: Uprooting all Fermentation! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What are the Fruits of the 5 Mental Abilities? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these five mental abilities. What five? The ability of Faith (saddhā ) The ability of Energy (viriya ) The ability of Awareness (sati ) The ability of Concentration (samādhi ) The ability of Understanding (pañña ) These are the five abilities. It is, Bhikkhus, because he has developed & cultivated these 5 abilities, that a Bhikkhu, by the destruction of the fermentations , in this very life enters and dwells in the stainless liberation of mind, released by wisdom, realizing it for himself with direct experience and knowledge! Comments: The 4 mental fermentations are wrong, false & hidden assumptions associated with: 1: Sense-desire (kāmāsava). Ex: "Sensing is only & always pleasant. Pain exists not!" 2: Desiring becoming into new existence (bhavāsava): Ex: "All life is good, Death exists not!" 3: Wrong views (ditthāsava): Ex: "I am better, know better & what I think is thus never wrong!" 4: Ignorance (avijjāsava): Ex: "Suffering, Craving, Ending Craving & the Noble Way exists not!" Mihintale, Sri Lanka. <...> Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 203] 48 The Mental Abilities: 20 Fermentation free.. Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Which ability uproots all mental Fermentation? #97017 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 12:59 am Subject: Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > (Welcome from me too, Kevin.) Yes, Sarah, thank goodness for having heard about dhammas! Where would we be if we hadn't heard about them? It doesn't bear thinking about. ... S: Yes, even more lost in moha than we are now... ... > > For a start I would still be caught up in arguments about politics. I would be thinking there were good (kusala) political parties and bad (akusala) political parties. But now that I know there aren't - only dhammas can be kusala or akusala - I can no longer take politics seriously. And I'm glad I can't. ... S: Yes, I remember the first time we met you, Andrew and others when various environmental and political issues were raised and we were basically a wet blanket on them all....As you say, only dhammas can be kusala and akusala. ... > > There are no good or bad political parties, political policies, or politicians. No more so than there are good or bad flying-purple-elephants. The same applies to all concepts; ultimately they don't exist. ... S: Yes, my nephew sent me a circular yesterday about some 'passionately felt concerns', suggesting no TV and so on....I think we have to consider what's really important in life, which of course doesn't mean 'don't demonstrate', 'don't pursue any of these other issues' if that's what one is inclined to do... ... > And what of the kusala and akusala things (dhammas) that really do exist? Can I have attachment for some and aversion for others? How silly would that be? Fleeting namas that come and go disinterestedly (purely by conditions) cannot possibly be worthy of attachment or aversion. ... S: Thanks for reminding us again and again! The more often the better. This is also what I'm discussing with Lukas now - clinging to a khandha....Yes, nonsensical, but ignorance we don't understand what impermanent dhammas are. Only one way... .. > Ultimately the world is not such a bad place after all! :-) ... S: Or even more of an illusion than we could imagine.... Just one world at a time.. Look forward to more of your insights, Ken... Metta, Sarah ======== #97018 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: my personal copy of KS's Survey nilovg Dear Ken and Sarah, Op 2-apr-2009, om 9:59 heeft sarahprocterabbott het volgende geschreven: > Just one world at a time.. ----- N: We hear this and forget immediately. We cannot hear this often enough, I agree, Sarah. So involved with 'wholes', not one doorway at a time. Nina. #97019 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 1:24 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... ptaus1 Hi Jon and Lukas, thanks for your detailed responses. I think I understand what you are saying and agree with it in theory. Of course, I canft really confirm thatfs how I experience things at the moment - it still very much seems that there is a gmoverh behind every experience, or at least some sort of gamnessh even in the most gkusalah moments I could detect. Maybe thatfs just a conglomeration of conditions that come together and then seem like some sort of a mover, but thatfs how I experience things at the moment. Perhaps with time, Ifll see things experientially a bit more like you do. Regardless, Ifm glad to listen to what you have to say. Best wishes, pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > L: Well,pt.In some extent it's true. Look at each Sutta and you will see, that Buddha always taught to develop this and that. Develop kusala and abadon what is akusala - those are his words. > > But that's all conditioned. Each moment is conditioned, everything no matter what we think of it. Reading and hearing Dhamma is a condition to develop more understanding. > Buddha knew about it. His wisdom penetrated all dhammas. He knew conditions for right understanding. That's why he taught Suttas for so long. He knew also the value of kusala better then anybody of us. > > In our daily lifes we think so much about 'mine','me' and that we can control realities. But is it right understanding? Or is it moha which was develop for so long? moha doesnt see realities as they are. moha isnt ours, it's anatta. > > There is a Sutta about what was not said and what was said by Blessed One. How we understand it? > > Abhasita Sutta > > "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata." > > L: It can happen when we explain something to someone that we arent sure and then claim that was Buddha words. > > This Sutta is about cittas. > No one can control whether citta is kusala or not. It just happens. But such reminders are a condition to more kusala. But there is no one who can develop anything. > > When we said something wrong that we dont like then we have a lot of aversion to what we said. Think that we are 'doing' something wrong. > > But this teaching is about paramattha dhammas. We can see that this is anatta. Even when we say something, it's always the matter whether citta is kusala or not. We cannot control what we'll say. what we think of. We cannot choose. When there are proper conditions for right understanding, there will be right understanding. When there are conditions for jhana, there will be jhana. > When there are conditions for right speach, there will be right speach. > Reading and hearing Dhamma is so good reminder. Buddha knew about it, and thats why he taught Sutta first, but then in Abhidhamma he explained it all carefuly again. He think of us, because we cannot understand Dhamma just reading Suttas. We have to read Dhamma in details. > > I am no sure you understand what i am writing(problems to express), but recently in my life i see each sutta as paramattha dhammas. And find it as a good reminder. When Buddha were talkin about fools he always has so many compasion, he saw just dhammas, no matter what has happend. > > I think citta has its own characteristic. > > My best wishes > Lukas > #97020 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Singular Occupancy sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, --- On Tue, 31/3/09, szmicio wrote: >> S: May we all learn to live as lone dwellers, ekavihaari, rather than as ta.nhaadutiyo puriso or saduityavihaarii, dwellers with a partner, ta.nhaa! > >L: Thats a good reminder. Really. But sometimes I've got doubts: maybe Buddha refers here only to ariya, which eradicted tanha now? And maybe those words are not for us.?? ... S: I don't think that Thera, the bhikkhu or Migajaala were ariyans before the Buddha encouraged them to understand the true meaning of learning to live alone without tanha. Of course, as we all know, only the arahat lives alone without any tanha. However, if we don't begin to appreciate what living alone really means, what guarding the sense doors through the development of awareness and right understanding really means, how will the ariyan understanding ever arise? The right understanding has to begin now. The Buddha spoke the Truths to all who could appreciate them according to their degree of accumulated understanding. .. >This great courage which you, Nina, KS have is so big support to me. But in Tipitaka, When Buddha was talking about Magga or "practice", that's mostly talking about lokuttara-cittas which accompany ariyas. ... S: I think that the path that is taught in the 4th NT has to begin now. the courage has to be now to live alone with seeing, hearing and other dhammas at this moment. Actually, there's no choice - as Connie said on the phone, there's no escape, because that's all there is. One world at a time. .... >I've got this strong feeling that Buddha-Dhamma is ceasing now. There is no one who can understand it now. In the times of Buddha people understood so fast. Even one speach from Buddha can liberate them. ... S: I'd like to ask 'so what?'. What's the purpose of thinking like this? What about just understanding the thinking as more conditioned dhammas, thinking about different concepts and stories. The answer always comes back to understanding now. When there's understanding of visible object or seeing, there's no concern about the 'Decline' or anything else. .... >When people sit and did anapanasati, they did not think about breath, they knew namaa nad ruupa, from the very begining, when they took a breath in they were aware of nama and rupa. When they breath out they were aware of nama and ruupa. When Buddha talked to them, the first step on the Path began from attainment of sottapanna. But now all has changed, we try to do this and that. Concentrate here and there. Sometimes I think that Buddha never thought that this could happen. Don't you think that some teachings are no longer actual? ... S: You're underestimating the Buddha's omniscient powers if you think that he didn't understand the decline that would follow. Assuming some attainments are no longer possible, again 'so what?'. What about now? There can be a beginning again and again of right understanding and then there is no doubt about what is real, what is taught in the Tipitaka. What arises is so anatta - Connie and I were saying we don't feel sad about this, but rejoice that there's no person, no thing, no control. No wonder life doesn't turn out as we plan or expect! No wonder accumulations are what they are! Just develop more understanding and never mind about others' practices or misguided ideas or the Decline in the Teachings. ...... >Sometimes I like to think about Path that always when there is right understanding of hearing and seeing then its Magga. But that's not true because Buddha said that first moment of Magga is only when the 1st lokuttaracitta is present. ... S: Yes, the magga cittas refer to the lokuttara cittas, but there has to be a path that leads to the arising of those cittas. So now there can be a mundane eightfold (or rather five (and sometimes six)fold) path leading to the ariyan paths. At moments of satipatthana, right understanding and awareness of dhammas appearing now, that is the path, patipada. I just spoke briefly on the tel. to an Indian friend, Govind, living in Hong Kong whom we met with Jessica once. He was saying he's so very busy in his work, hardly time to read, but he'd finished Abhid. in Daily Life and found it so useful. I'm giving him some more books before he moves back to India (Sarnath area, Nina). I mentioned that the lifestyle, being so busy, was not an obstacle to the path. Right understanding can arise anytime at all. Better to be busy with no time to read, but with right understanding of dhammas, than to have lots and lots of free time, but no understanding or real interest in dhammas appearing now. Metta, Sarah ========== #97021 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 1:51 am Subject: Odd letters/charcters in text jonoabb Hi Han, Lukas and All About the odd letters/characters that have started appearing in the text lately, it may have something to do with the font setting for your browser. Does anyone happen to know the setting recommended by Yahoo? Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > I also notice that the engine from yahoo groups is always adding its own marks and format it in its own way. > If I type apostrophe and quotation marks they are changed into un-readable letters. > So I have to use square brackets instead of quotation marks. > > Dear Han > I also thank you for your dukkha jati punappuna.m and your comments on > taanhaadutiyo puriso. Those were very helpful to me. > > I've tried to edit my post. But this engine from yahoo groups is always adding its own marks and format it in its own way. #97022 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 1:58 am Subject: Re: Odd letters/charcters in text jonoabb Sorry All, correction. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Han, Lukas and All > > About the odd letters/characters that have started appearing in the text lately, it may have something to do with the font setting for your browser. > > Does anyone happen to know the setting recommended by Yahoo? In the above, I should have said character encoding, rather than font setting. Have just checked my own browser (using Opera) and notice that the charcter encoding is set to "iso-8859-1" (whatever that means!). Jon #97023 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 2:15 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... ptaus1 Hi, just a test regarding the encoding: "' "m" ':; --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Jon and Pt > > > > > 1.If a kusala citta is prompted by oneself (i.e. not as spontaneous as an unprompted kusala citta), would it still be considered not purposeful? > > > A prompted citta is one that is weaker and perhaps slower to arise than an unprompted one. However, whether the prompting is by another or by oneself, the fundamental conditions for its arising are the same as in the case of the unprompted citta, namely, previous accumulations of the same wholesome quality and the present opportunity for that particular kind of kusala. > > L: That's true. I think no matter citta is prompted or not. It arises and falls away in the same way. It's also conditioned in the same way. > > > > We need to remember that there are different kinds of conditions. So while useful reminders (one's own or another's) are helpful, and are a condition in that respect, they are not a prerequisite for the arising of kusala. > > L: Yes, I think kusala can arise because of old conditiones. > > > > - > > > 2.Can't an akusala citta condition a kusala citta? Like when doing something on purpose and that very doing (even if it is akusala) becomes the condition for kusala citta? > > > - > > #97024 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 2:32 am Subject: Re: Odd letters/charcters in text ptaus1 Hi Jon, it seems yahoo automatically brings up the character encoding of the original poster - yours is the ISO one, some have Japanese encoding (SHIFT_JIS), others have various Windows encodings, etc. In my case, the problem seems to be only with the posts with Japanese encoding - when I try to reply to these posts - the text in the edit window is all curvy in form, and the quotation marks, apostrophe, line, etc, come out all wrong. But if the encoding is manually changed to some other like the ISO or Unicode, it comes out all right, as just tested in the previous post. Best wishes --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Sorry All, correction. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > > Hi Han, Lukas and All > > > > About the odd letters/characters that have started appearing in the text lately, it may have something to do with the font setting for your browser. > > > > Does anyone happen to know the setting recommended by Yahoo? > > In the above, I should have said character encoding, rather than font setting. > > Have just checked my own browser (using Opera) and notice that the charcter encoding is set to "iso-8859-1" (whatever that means!). > > Jon > #97025 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 2:48 am Subject: Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E > -------------------- > The image of a "dhamma" that I have from the Abhidhamma perspective so far is of a "perceived quality" through one of the sense-doors, such as hardness etc. I am not personally convinced that objects appear as separated individual qualities in this way. It seems unlikely to me, but I understand the concept. It is part of "one citta at a time," and "only one experient/dhamma per citta," and "no hybrid dhammas/only single quality at a time." The concept breaks down experience as one would the features of a specimen under a microscope, which leads to a very serious analysis, but may not reflect the living reality of how the things occur in situ, live. > -------------------- Many points to discuss here ;-)) First, there is no "Abhidhamma perspective" that says anything different from what's found in the Suttas. There's a lot of material that is common to both Suttas and the Abhidhamma. It's just the manner of presentation that differs. Secondly, the idea that in the Abhidhamma the objects of the conventional world (people and things) are broken down into dhammas as if under a microscope is mistaken, in my view. The world of dhammas is a world apart from the conventional world, and it is that world of dhammas that is examined in such close detail in the Abhidhamma (as well as in the Suttas). But this examination is not carried out in order to support an understanding that is any different from the understanding spoken of in the suttas. Pausing there for now. Will get back on the rest later. Jon #97026 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 2:51 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi Lukas > > Yes, akusala citta can be a condition for kusala citta (an example would be giving a donation in part because of wanting to be seen as a generous person, i.e., conceit). > > L: There are also similar examples in Tipitaka, but I dont think so that is a correct and exact example of kusala citta being conditioned by akusala. It's just a simile, and it's OK. But only pa~n~na can know how it all happens. I think that is a matter of direct understanding of realities. > ----------------------------- Well there is a connection, I would say, but it's not a very direct one. I think we've all had the experience of unwholesome deeds or thoughts being followed very closely by wholesome thoughts, because of some association made. Thanks for coming in and sharing your views. Jon #97027 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 2:52 am Subject: Re: lobha - eko dhammo...avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti? jonoabb Hi Lukas > > I agree with this (that ignorance is the root cause of lobha), but would be interested to hear your comments on exactly what the connection is. Thanks. Enjoying reading your posts. > > > > Jon > > Here is Avija Sutta:(SN XXXV.79) > > <<6. Pa.thamaavijjaapahaanasutta.m > > 79. Atha kho a~n~nataro bhikkhu yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami…pe… > ekamanta.m nisinno kho so bhikkhu bhagavanta.m etadavoca – ‘‘atthi nu > kho, bhante, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, > vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti? ... > But I haven't got english translation of this passage. There's a sutta with the same name but a slightly different number at this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.080.than.html Is this the one you're referring to? Jon #97028 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 2:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Dear Howard > ----------------------------- > Thank you for the clarification. I think I'll be happy to leave things > as they stand for a while, basking in the pleasure of some small agreement. ;-) > ----------------------------- Yes, a pleasure it is ;-)) Jon #97029 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 3:02 am Subject: Re: Odd letters/charcters in text jonoabb Hi pt Many thanks for this. I'm glad if my mention of character encoding means you can now achieve a squiggle-free post ;-)) Just a couple of questions, as your comments are a bit technical for me. > ----------------------------- > Hi Jon, it seems yahoo automatically brings up the character encoding of the original poster - yours is the ISO one, some have Japanese encoding (SHIFT_JIS), others have various Windows encodings, etc. > > In my case, the problem seems to be only with the posts with Japanese encoding - when I try to reply to these posts - the text in the edit window is all curvy in form, and the quotation marks, apostrophe, line, etc, come out all wrong. But if the encoding is manually changed to some other like the ISO or Unicode, it comes out all right, as just tested in the previous post. > ----------------------------- 1. By 'edit window' do you mean the Reply window on the website (when replying directly on the list), or are you referring to a window in your email program? 2. How, and at what stage, do you manually change the encoding? Thanks Jon #97030 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 3:20 am Subject: Re: Odd letters/charcters in text ptaus1 Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > 1. By 'edit window' do you mean the Reply window on the website (when replying directly on the list), or are you referring to a window in your email program? Yes, the Reply window that yahoo brings up when we click on "Reply". > 2. How, and at what stage, do you manually change the encoding? It needs to be changed before starting to type the reply. It's changed in the browser menu (I'm on Firefox): View -> Character Encoding -> Western (ISO-8859-1), or, Unicode (UTF-8). I guess these two encodings should work with most browsers. Mine at least seems to have issues only with posts with Japanese one. Best wishes pt #97031 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 4:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] pariyati gazita2002 hallo Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Azita, > > Always good to read your reflections - > >However, while studying one may begin to see that the dhamma is about conditions which occur quite beyond anyone's control. Just naamas and ruupas arising and falling away time after time after time....... > ... > S: Yes, again! And only one reality appearing now at a time to be directly known. So it all comes down to the understanding of this dhamma appearing now - being alone with the visible object or seeing or sound or hearing or whatever appears - not the name or label. > > Looking forward to any more of your reflections or quotes from notebooks/recordings. > azita: found this in my little blue book, dated 1979, from Sri Lanka. Q. I understand that we do not have ditthi as often as I thought we would; so why is it that we are always taking things for what they are not? A. the concepts never change, but wisdom can grow and grow until 'we' can tell the difference bet. the actual experience of an object and the thinking about it. 'wrong view is a kind of clinging, it arises only with lobha-mula-citta. It can arise with 4 types of l-m-c. moha covers up the true nature of realities and ditthi has wrong view about them.' you know, Sarah, I've had this little book for a long time and for years it was somewhere in our house and I never looked at or read it until very recently. Accumulations for being interested/involved in other things - samsara is a long, long time eh? patience, courage and good cheer, azita #97032 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 4:40 am Subject: [dsg] ANAPANASATI: no 3. nilovg Dear Sachin and friends, Although one believes that one is calm at that moment, one still has restlessness. Do we realize it whether the pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling which arises is kusala or akusala? We have theoretical knowledge of kusala and akusala, but in order to develop what is wholesome we must know whether the citta at this moment is kusala or akusala. Attachment to calm may be very subtle, one may not notice it. Lobha can lure us all the time. Only pa can know whether the citta which arises is kusala or akusala. In conventional language we use the word calm. We should know which kind of reality calm is. Calm, in Pli passaddhi, is a cetasika. In fact, there are two cetasikas: kya-passaddhi, tranquillity of body, and citta-passaddhi, tranquillity of mind. By kya, body, is meant here the mental body, which are the cetasikas (the three nma- kkhandhas which are vedna-kkhandha, feeling, sa-kkhandha, perception, and sankhra-kkhandha, the formations) as distinct from citta (Visuddhimagga XIV, 144). Thus, there is calm of cetasikas and calm of citta. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 144): ...But both tranquillity of that body and of consciousness have, together, the characteristic of quieting disturbance of that body and of consciousness. Their function is to crush disturbance of the (mental) body and of consciousness. They are manifested as inactivity and coolness of the (mental) body and of consciousness... The two cetasikas which are calm of body and calm of citta arise with each kusala citta, no matter whether one is performing dna (generosity), observing sla (morality), developing samatha or vipassan. Thus, also while we are generous or abstain from lying there is calm: at such moments there are no lobha, dosa or moha accompanying the citta. When there are moments of mett, lovingkindness, towards someone we meet, there is true calm. Mett is a subject of samatha, but it can and should be developed in daily life, when we are in the company of other people. We should not confuse mett with selfish affection, we should know that when there is pure lovingkindness we do not expect anything in return, we do not want anything for ourselves. When we hear the word samatha we may think that one has to develop it in quiet surroundings until jhna is attained. However, there can be moments of calm, samatha, in daily life if there is right understanding, pa, which knows when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta. We should not believe that this is easy. Those who have accumulations for jhna can develop calm to the degree of jhna, but only very few people are able to. We do not know whether there are at the present time people who are able to attain jhna. When jhna is attained defilements are temporarily eliminated. ******* Nina. #97033 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 4:49 am Subject: Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear Kevin, Regarding: K: "I'd like to talk about the Mahayana idea of emptiness..." Scott: Were you wanting to discuss this, or wanting to just present your ideas and leave it at that? Sincerely, Scott. #97034 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 5:05 am Subject: Re: lobha - eko dhammo...avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti? szmicio --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Lukas > > > > I agree with this (that ignorance is the root cause of lobha), but would be interested to hear your comments on exactly what the connection is. Thanks. Enjoying reading your posts. > > > > > > Jon > > > > Here is Avija Sutta:(SN XXXV.79) > > > > <<6. Pa.thamaavijjaapahaanasutta.m > > > > 79. Atha kho a~n~nataro bhikkhu yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami…pe… > > ekamanta.m nisinno kho so bhikkhu bhagavanta.m etadavoca – ‘‘atthi nu > > kho, bhante, eko dhammo yassa pahaanaa bhikkhuno avijjaa pahiiyati, > > vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti? > ... > > But I haven't got english translation of this passage. > > There's a sutta with the same name but a slightly different number at this link: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.080.than.html > > Is this the one you're referring to? Well, that's number 80. I think that one will be exact translation.(One paragraph is omited here) 'Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, is there any one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" "Yes monk, there is one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." "What is that one thing?" "Ignorance, monk, is the one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." 1 "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" "He sees the eye as something separate. He sees forms as something separate. He sees eye-consciousness as something separate. He sees eye-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too he sees as something separate. "He sees the ear as something separate... "He sees the nose as something separate... "He sees the tongue as something separate... "He sees the body as something separate... "He sees the intellect as something separate. He sees ideas as something separate. He sees intellect-consciousness as something separate. He sees intellect-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too he sees as something separate. "This is how a monk knows, this is how a monk sees, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises."' #97035 From: westbankj@... Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 4:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness farrel.kevin >Regarding: >K: "I'd like to talk about the Mahayana idea of emptiness...K >Scott: Were you wanting to discuss this, or wanting to just present your ideas and leave it at that? >Sincerely, >Scott. Dear Scott, I simply wanted to present my ideas; however, by all means, please feel free to discuss them or raise any points that you wish to. Thanks, Kevin #97036 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 11:35 am Subject: Select good friends, choose the best! jonathancoppola Dhammapada entry #194/2/2009 Dear friendsBelow please find a part of a series of postings that will include entries from the Dhammapada. Along with these will be my comments. I encourage you to reflect on these entries, and post comments of your own here or at: jonathancoppola@... A copy of all the postings is available upon request. The source is: The Dhammapada, Translated by Venerable Ananda Maitraya, Parallex Press, 1995. Other sources for this post: www.accesstoinsight.org and www.what-buddha-said.net/index/htm Dhammapada 6 The Wise If someone sees an intelligent person Who is skillfully able to point out shortcomings, And give suitable reproof, Let him cherish such a revealer of hidden treasures. Only good can come from such an association. Let the wise one guide, correct, And deter others from what is base and vile. He will be treasured by the good and spurned by the evil. Do not choose bad friends. Do not choose persons of low habits. Select good friends. Be discriminating. Choose the best. Comments: How will we know when we are in the presence of a good, wise, and intelligent person that is worthy of our associating with? What are the qualities of friendship that we need to posses? We find the criteria in a variety of places throughout the Pali Canon. "A friend endowed with these three qualities is worth associating with. Which three? He/she gives what is hard to give, does what is hard to do, endures what is hard to endure. A friend endowed with these three qualities is worth associating with." AN 3.130 "whoever distinguishes between right and wrongleads others evenhandedly, but not by force, is a guardian of justiceis called righteous. A man is not considered wise because he talks a lot, but he is secure andis free of hate and does no harm. A man cannot be regarded well-versed in the Dhamma by his rhetoric. However, even with little learning, a man [who]does not neglect the practice of virtue may be considered well-versed in the Dhamma. A man must practice truthfulness, righteousness, harmlessness, restraint, and self-control, be free of stain and rich in wisdomA shaven head does not make a man a monk, if he is still undisciplined and dishonest...A man may be called a monk [wise] if he is cleansed of all evil, large or small, free of unwholesome tendencies. He who lives the higher life, full of understanding of the world but free of its good or evil, that one is called a holy man. A man cannot be called wise simply because he is silent. Whoever is aware, conscious of what is, choosing wisely, that on can be called a sage.Not merely by keeping precepts and observances, not yet by scholarly learning, not solely by attaining meditative absorption, not by lying alone, do I weave ascetic bliss, not experienced by the worldling. The bhikkhu [person] should not rest content, until mental intoxicants are fully extinct." Dhp 19 "If a man finds a companion, prudent, wise upright, and righteous, let him go with him, overcoming all danger. If a man cannot find a companion prudent, wise, upright, and righteous, let him walk alone, like a king leaving the conquered land, or an elephant roaming by himself in the forest." Dhp 23, Verse 9 "Admonish yourself strongly, scrutinize yourself deeply. Thus, alert and protected by your vigilance, you will live in happiness, O monk." Dhp 25, Verse 20 "A monk who is a friend to admirable people-- who's reverential, respectful, doing what his friends advise mindful, alert, attains step by step the ending of all fetters." Iti 17 "The friend who is a helpmate, the friend both in happiness and woe, the friend, who gives good counsel, the friend, who sympathizes too! These four as friends the wise behold and cherish with deep devotion, as does a mother her own child." DN 31 "Who is hospitable, and friendly, tolerant, generous and unselfish, a guide, an instructor, a leader, such a one to honor may attain." DN 31 Be a good friend, be the best. Select good friends, choose the best! With Metta, Jonathan #97037 From: mlnease Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 1:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila m_nease Hi Jon, jonoabb wrote: > > Hi Mike > > How nice to see you! Thanks, nice to see you too. > My understanding would be as mentioned earlier, namely, that the > observance (or undertaking) of the Uposotha is a matter of actual > restraint, and that the act of resolving to restrain if a situation > should arise does not actually fall within the 8 factors mentioned. > > Does that seem consistent with the passage as quoted to you? Yes, your probably right. Thanks for your time. mike #97038 From: "colette" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 12:00 pm Subject: Re: Emptiness ksheri3 Hi Scott and Kevin, Scott, I think he wants to discuss this but from what I read in his original post it seems that it is nothing more than straight out of a text or multiple texts. It's very common with professors and teachers, et al, they have no committment to the practice and/or teachings they are just fulfilling some sort of requirement that causes them to function in a certain way. I ask you, has anybody really ever had a discent conversation or discussion concerning the Abhidharma? The few people I know of that have read it really aren't interested in talking about it since it is just as it is portrayed: A JEWEL! It's great for reference but when it gets down to actually discussing the text, well, it becomes extremely muddy and winds up becoming a bog or quagmire due to the amount of complexities that people adore getting lost in. Kevin, we, you and I, DISAGREE. You're grasping at a definition FOR Shunyata or do you prefer Sunyata? You are trying to impose a definition upon it which means you want to quantify and qualify it as something thus you can say it is either Nama or Rupa depending on the mood you're in or the corner you've backed yourself into. ;), I have found that the Dhamma Cakkappa Vattana Sutta and the Anattalakkhana Sutta aid extremely well in visualizing Shunyata/Sunyata. What you got in your post is not gonna lead you to a cessation of the suffering you exerience from your lack of ACTUAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE REALITY OF SHUNYATA/SUNYATA. Look up in the sky and pray a blue pancake doesn't plop down on ya, huh? You post is cute, Kevin, but since I know Scott a little, I guess I'm seeing what kindof fun we can scare up with some CRAZY WISDOM. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Kevin, > > Regarding: > > K: "I'd like to talk about the Mahayana idea of emptiness..." > > Scott: Were you wanting to discuss this, or wanting to just present your ideas and leave it at that? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #97039 From: "colette" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 1:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness ksheri3 Hi Kevin, NO THINKING! Tell me what Shunyata means to you! What is Shunyata? It's gotta be your gut response. Give it to me immediately wiothout thought. As you read this you should already have a view of shunyata and that's what I'm asking for. By not thinking about it and giving me your gut response, your spontaneous response, you throw this hesitation, this caution, out the window with that damned dirty bath water. A few months ago a colleague went to England on a retreat and when he came back he gave me an EMPOWERMENT. Obviously he trusts me and doesn't mind my jesting, joking, around. He has faith in my applications of such things as Mahayoga, etc. You are aware of what Shunyata means to you. You have a definition. Release it. By thinking you strengthen SECRETCY WHICH IS A RESULTANT PHENOMENA FROM FEAR. By harboring Secrecy you create obscurations and give yourself Karma of no value. Give me that gut response please. toodles, colette #97040 From: westbankj@... Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 11:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness farrel.kevin Dear Colette, Right now, it's probably better if we just limit the discussionto addressing the specific points that I brought up about the nature of dharmas and how they appear. And by the way, you were right in your first post. It is straight out of a text: " Homage to the Perfection of Wisdom, the Lovely, the Holy! Avalokita, The Holy Lord and Bodhisattva, was moving in the deep course of the Wisdom which has gone beyond. He looked down from on high, He beheld but five heaps, and he saw that in their own-being they were empty. Here, Sariputra, form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness; whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form, the same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness. Here, Sariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness; they are not produced or stopped, not defiled or immaculate, not deficient or complete. Therefore, Sariputra, in emptiness there is no form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor impulse, nor consciousness; No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; No forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touchables or objects of mind; No sight-organ element, and so forth, until we come to: No mind-consciousness element; There is no ignorance, no extinction of ignorance, and so forth, until we come to: there is no decay and death, no extinction of decay and death. There is no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path. There is no cognition, no attainment and non-attainment. Therefore, Sariputra, it is because of his non-attainment that a Bodhisattva, through having relied on the Perfection of Wisdom, dwells without thought-coverings. In the absence of thought-coverings he has not been made to tremble, he has overcome what can upset, and in the end he attains to Nirvana. All those who appear as Buddhas in the three periods of time fully awake to the utmost, right and perfect Enlightenment because they have relied on the Perfection of Wisdom." Thanks, Kevin In a message dated 4/2/2009 6:08:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: Hi Kevin, NO THINKING! Tell me what Shunyata means to you! What is Shunyata? It's gotta be your gut response. Give it to me immediately wiothout thought. As you read this you should already have a view of shunyata and that's what I'm asking for. By not thinking about it and giving me your gut response, your spontaneous response, you throw this hesitation, this caution, out the window with that damned dirty bath water. A few months ago a colleague went to England on a retreat and when he came back he gave me an EMPOWERMENT. Obviously he trusts me and doesn't mind my jesting, joking, around. He has faith in my applications of such things as Mahayoga, etc. You are aware of what Shunyata means to you. You have a definition. Release it. By thinking you strengthen SECRETCY WHICH IS A RESULTANT PHENOMENA FROM FEAR. By harboring Secrecy you create obscurations and give yourself Karma of no value. Give me that gut response please. toodles, colette --- In _dhammastudygroup@dhammastudygdha_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , westbankj@.., we <...> > Dear Scott, > > I simply wanted to present my ideas; however, by all means, please feel free > to discuss them or raise any points that you wish to. > > Thanks, > > Kevin #97041 From: westbankj@... Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 12:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness farrel.kevin Hi Colette, In my last post I wrote: Dear Colette, Right now, it's probably better if we just limit the discussion to addressing the specific points that I brought up about the nature of dharmas and how they appear. And by the way, you were right in your first post. It is straight out of a text: I should have been a little more specific and said that in your last post you were right that the ideas came "straight out of text", but not about me being like a professor that just teaches something because he is required to. The ideas match my thought beliefs. Cheers, Kevin #97042 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 6:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness kenhowardau Hi Kevin (and Scott), After writing my usual diatribe on the "no inherent characteristics" anathema I had the same thought that Scott had: "Were you wanting to discuss this, or wanting to just present your ideas and leave it at that?" ----------- K: > I simply wanted to present my ideas; however, by all means, please feel free to discuss them or raise any points that you wish to. ----------- OK, thanks, I will. And I hope Scott and others will too. However, there is something different here. Normally when we discuss this particular Mahayana theory it is with people who are trying to justify formal meditation. But, if I have understood you correctly, you are not wanting to do that at all. So I wonder why on earth you would be attracted to this new (Mahayana) version of the Dhamma. What does it offer that the original, Theravada, version does not? As you acknowledged in your previous post, there are only dhammas and all dhammas are anatta. Dhammas arise, perform their functions, and then fall away (never to be seen again). So, if that's all there is, there can't be any sense in *trying* to attain enlightenment. Enlightenment for whom? As I see it, the formal meditators want to get around this fait accompli. To do so, they deny the absolute reality of dhammas. They say that the *real* absolute reality lies, not in dhammas, but in a great "ocean." Dhammas don't have their "own being" they are just an illusory emanation of the great "ocean of being". . etc, etc. I say "etc, etc" because from that point on the story becomes just the same old religiosity - 'Oneness with the universe' 'return to the Creator God' 'everything is Nibbana if only we would realise it' etc, etc. You know the drill. :-) I'd better stop there and let you have your say. If you want to. :-) Ken H #97043 From: westbankj@... Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 2:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness farrel.kevin Hi Ken, Ken: However, there is something different here. Normally when we discuss this particular Mahayana theory it is with people who are trying to justify formal meditation. But, if I have understood you correctly, you are not wanting to do that at all. So I wonder why on earth you would be attracted to this new (Mahayana) version of the Dhamma. What does it offer that the original, Theravada, version does not? Kevin: What it offers is a deeper view of phenomena. Where the Sravakayana system offers a sentient being the means to go beyond dukkha and afflictive emotions "in to" the cessation of nibbana, so to speak (don't take it literally please), the Mahayana offers a path to complete Omniscience via the realization that dharmas are empty and unarisen. The paramattha dhammas that we take for as real, never arise in the first place. All dharmas are completely empty. This realization is the realization that samsara and nirvana are delusions, hallucinations, cognitive errors. Things neither exist nor non-exist. No "one" realizes this. Our ideas about samsara and nirvana are completely deluded, they are predicated on dharmas being substantial. Samsara is the experience that dharmas are substantial and that there is a self. Nirvana is the realization that there is not-self, this realization is predicated on the merit that dharmas arise, are substantial, but the realization of Buddhahood is that dharmas are unarisen. As I said before, in relative truth dharmas arise based on conditions and operate through Dependant Origination, on the ultimate level they are empty and unarisen, so where is this samsara? It is a delusion. This has been the realization of Mahayana masters. They revealed that the Buddha was a Mahayana master, and that all Buddha are, but that, at times, they teach a Sravakayana path, because people have accumulations for that, and because it is better to remove some of your delusion than none. In reality there are no Buddhas, it is just the vision of sentient beings, based on conditions. Likewise, there is no suffering, and no non-suffering. It's just delusion. On the relative level there are Buddhas, there is a path, there is suffering and there is the cessation of it. I am not actively trying to convert people to Mahayana, just trying to explain that dharmas are empty, not just of a dharmin but of any existence or non-existence at all. It should be obvious to anyone who studies dhammas. Ken: As I see it, the formal meditators want to get around this fait accompli. To do so, they deny the absolute reality of dhammas. They say that the *real* absolute reality lies, not in dhammas, but in a great "ocean." Dhammas don't have their "own being" they are just an illusory emanation of the great "ocean of being". . etc, etc. Kevin: Perhaps they were hindus. Kevin #97044 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 7:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear Ken (and Kevin), K: "After writing my usual diatribe on the "no inherent characteristics" anathema I had the same thought that Scott had: 'Were you wanting to discuss this, or wanting to just present your ideas and leave it at that?...OK, thanks, I will. And I hope Scott and others will too..." Scott: I asked the question because I too had an urge to launch in, but then, why bother when Kevin is simply posting some Mahayana rhetoric? This isn't a Mahayana forum. If there had been a question about something, then this would be different, but Kevin's was simply a statement, and, as colette notes, a fairly rote rendering at that. I don't get into the Mahayana. I have no accumulations to draw me there at all. It sounds circular, nonsensical, overwrought, and far from the Dhamma that does stir me. What should we do about such posts anyway? Sincerely, Scott. #97045 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 10:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ANAPANASATI: no 3. ptaus1 Dear Nina, thanks for these series on anapanasati, I'm also interested in it. I'd like to ask how can one tell the difference practically between cetasikas of passadhi and ekaggata? I'm confused here because it seemed to me that Vism says that peace is a manifestation of ekaggata, so I'm wondering if this peace of ekaggata is the same as passadhi cetasika or not, because both are often mentioned in reference to calm of samatha. Here's the Vism quote for ekaggata from your ADL chpt 21: "The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 139) states concerning samdhi: It puts (dhiyati) consciousness evenly (sama) on the object, or it puts it rightly (samm) on it, or it is just the mere collecting (samdhna) of the mind, thus it is concentration (samdhi). Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is non-distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as water does bath powder. It is manifested as peace. Usually its proximate cause is bliss. It should be regarded as steadiness of the mind, like the steadiness of a lamp's flame when there is no draught." What would be the experiential differences between "peace" (manifestation of ekaggata in Vism), and, "inactivity and coolness" (manifestation of passaddhi in Vism)? They seem the same to me, so that's the real problem I guess. Thanks, pt Nina:We should know which > kind of reality calm is. Calm, in Pli passaddhi, is a cetasika. In > fact, there are two cetasikas: kya-passaddhi, tranquillity of body, > and citta-passaddhi, tranquillity of mind. By kya, body, is meant > here the "mental body", which are the cetasikas (the three nma- > kkhandhas which are vedna-kkhandha, feeling, sa-kkhandha, > perception, and sankhra-kkhandha, the "formations") as distinct from > citta (Visuddhimagga XIV, 144). Thus, there is calm of cetasikas and > calm of citta. > We read in the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 144): > > ` ...But both tranquillity of that body and of consciousness have, > together, the characteristic of quieting disturbance of that body and > of consciousness. Their function is to crush disturbance of the > (mental) body and of consciousness. They are manifested as inactivity > and coolness of the (mental) body and of consciousness...' #97046 From: slnanda Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 8:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ANAPANASATI: no 3. silananda_t Hi, These are some hints that jhanas are still attainable in the very present moment. The Jhanas To the Last Breath Knowing and Seeing mahakaruna, ~silananda *Food for thought:* *For those who think that the jhanas are too difficult to be attained in these present times but Nibbana is not, and so they work on discernment without samadhi. But how could the harder (Nibbana) be achieved without achieving the easier (Jhanas). * On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sachin and friends, > > Although one believes that one is calm at that moment, one still has > restlessness. Do we realize it whether the pleasant feeling or > indifferent feeling which arises is kusala or akusala? We have > theoretical knowledge of kusala and akusala, but in order to develop > what is wholesome we must know whether the citta at this moment is > kusala or akusala. Attachment to calm may be very subtle, one may not > notice it. Lobha can lure us all the time. Only pa can know > whether the citta which arises is kusala or akusala. > In conventional language we use the word calm. We should know which > kind of reality calm is. <...> #97047 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 10:01 pm Subject: The 3 Golden Gifts! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What are the 3 kinds of Buddhist Gifts? Three kinds of gift are mentioned in Buddhism, namely: 1: Amisa dāna: The gift of material things, 2: Abhaya dāna: The fearless gift of life, 3: Dhamma dāna: The gift of real Truth... Amisa dāna: – or the gift of material things is practised by people of all religions and is very common. Food, clothes and houses are given to people of little means or to refugees through various religious and social organizations. It is, no doubt, a good thing to satisfy the hunger of the starved & the yearning of the thirsty. This type of donations is highly recommended in Buddhism and is called the Amisa dāna. (The donations of material things). Next comes the Abhaya dāna: - or giving life to those who are in danger of life caused by fire, water or enemies. Sometimes we hear of people, who are about to die due to lack of blood. To donate blood and save another humans life is indeed a great thing. Donation of eyes and kidneys is also highly appreciated and they come under Abhaya dāna – fearless donation of life. The last one: Dhamma dāna: - or the gift of Truth of the Doctrine is said to be the highest of all donations on earth. Why so? Because it opens the Door to the Deathless Dimension! This no other giving is even remotely capable of... Openhanded Giving is the 1st Mental Perfection... Sabba dānam Dhamma dānam jināti Sabbam rasam Dhamma raso jināti Sabbam ratim Dhamma ratī jināti Tanhakkayo sabba dukkham jināti The gift of Dhamma excels all other Gifts. The flavour of Dhamma excels all other flavours. The pleasure in Dhamma excels all other pleasures. He who has destroyed craving overcomes all sorrow! Dhammapada 354 Most Gods actually became Divine Beings as a result of Giving! <...> Sumedha - the young millionaire - gives away all his property! Source: Ven. Weragoda Sarada Maha Thero http://www.buddhist-book.com Singapore Have a nice generous day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The 3 Golden Gifts! #97048 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 11:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness ptaus1 Hi Kevin, Scott, Ken and all, Kevin: Nirvana is the > realization that there is not-self, this realization is predicated on the > merit that dharmas arise, are substantial, but the realization of Buddhahood > is that dharmas are unarisen. pt: Are dhammas in Theravada considered substantial? My understanding was that dhammas (other than nibbana) arise due to conditions, so to say they are substantial or not is wrong, because they are in fact conditioned. But, being a beginner, I might be wrong, so would appreciate your clarifications. Also: Kevin: As I said before, in relative truth dharmas > arise based on conditions and operate through Dependant Origination, on the > ultimate level they are empty and unarisen, so where is this samsara? It is a > delusion. This has been the realization of Mahayana masters. pt: As I understand it, in Theravada it's said that conceptualizing is relative truth, while dhammas and conditions which have the characteristic of not-self are the ultimate truth. So, in Mahayana, even dhammas and conditions are considered relative truth, while only emptiness is the ultimate truth? Thanks pt #97049 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 2, 2009 11:19 pm Subject: Re: Emptiness kenhowardau Hi Kevin, Thanks for your explanation of Mahayana v's Theravada. I have to wonder though, whether your understanding of Mahayana is the definitive one or just one of many conflicting versions. I know there are all sorts of teachings being passed off as Theravada, and so I suspect the same thing happens elsewhere as well. But never mind that. The main thing is we agree we are talking about *two different teachings.* That's a relief! Often on DSG people try to convince us that the Theras originally taught "no inherent characteristics" and other Mahayana doctrines. They say that the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries were later additions that changed the original Theravadin teachings. That makes discussion very difficult at times! :-) Just for the record I would like to stress that anatta or "emptiness" in Theravada means "empty of a permanent (lasting) self." It definitely does not mean that dhammas are empty of inherent characteristics (sabhava). Oh, and I also couldn't possibly accept that Theravada was some kind of interim teaching "because people have accumulations for that,and because it is better to remove some of your delusion than none." No, I am sure we are talking about two very different teachings. The right understanding that removes some delusions (about ultimate reality) is exactly the same same right understanding that removes all such delusions. There is only one right understanding. Ken H #97050 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 12:51 am Subject: [dsg] ANAPANASATI: no 4. nilovg Dear friends, There is calm when one develops vipassan. When one is aware of a characteristic of nma or rpa there is kusala citta which is accompanied by calm. Moreover, vipassan leads to the eradication of wrong view and the other defilements. The arahat has eradicated all latent tendencies of defilements and thus he has the highest degree of calm. When the citta is not intent on dna, sla or bhvna, mental development, there is no calm, passaddhi. Concentration on breathing with the aim to become relaxed is not a way of kusala kamma, it is not samatha. There is then no passaddhi with the citta, even if one thinks that one is feeling calm. At such a moment there may not be dosa, but lobha and moha are bound to arise. Right understanding of what is kusala and what is akusala will prevent us from taking for samatha what is not samatha. If one believes that one can develop calm to the degree of jhna, one should know about the many conditions which have to be fulfilled in order to attain it. If one understands how difficult it is to attain jhna one will not mislead oneself and believe that one has attained it when there is a sensation of sense-impressions being blotted out or other unusual experiences. The person who wants to develop samatha to the degree of jhna should lead a secluded life and he should not spend his time with various entertainments such as one enjoys while leading a worldly life. One should really see the disadvantages of sense- pleasures and one should have the intention to cultivate the conditions for being away from them. If the right conditions are not fulfilled there cannot even be access-concentration (upacra-samadhi) [1] nor can there be the attainment of jhna. --------- Footnote 1 At the moment of access-concentration the citta is not yet jhna- citta, but the hindrances are temporarily suppressed. ******** Nina. #97051 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 12:55 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] ANAPANASATI: no 3. I am going away. nilovg Dear Sachin and pt, I do appreciate your questions, but I am going away for four days tomorrow, and I do not know whether I have time now. I also had some computer trouble. Thanks, until later. Nina. Op 3-apr-2009, om 5:03 heeft sīlānanda het volgende geschreven: > > These are some hints that jhanas are still attainable in the very > present > moment. #97052 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 2:25 am Subject: Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E > ------------------------------------ The image of a "dhamma" that I have from the Abhidhamma perspective so far is of a "perceived quality" through one of the sense-doors, such as hardness etc. ... The concept breaks down experience as one would the features of a specimen under a microscope, which leads to a very serious analysis, but may not reflect the living reality of how the things occur in situ, live. > > Unless we are arahants, we probably can't verify this for ourselves at present, so it is either a matter of faith, logic, experience, understanding, or common sense by which we determine it. > ------------------------------------ You are talking about what you call the "Abhidhamma perspective", I think? I don't see the need to "determine" anything at this stage. Verification (or otherwise) will come when understanding is further developed. In the meantime it's simply a matter of not rejecting the explanation/description given in the texts. > ------------------------------------ > If we grant that a single dhamma/experient arises for one citta which grasps it, experiences and then falls away along with its dhamma, it still does not settle the issue of whether the citta is doing the experiencing all by itself or whether its "fellow traveller" cetasikas are merely modifying the experience for the citta, or doing their own separate version of experiencing the dhamma either at the same time or just before or after, however it is deemed to take place. > ------------------------------------ I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of this kind of thinking to the development of awareness or understanding of presently arising dhammas. It's not necessary to have settled on a comprehensive blueprint of the way everything is before seeing the importance of the possibility of a level of awareness at this moment as we exchange messages. > ------------------------------------ > If the cetasika is meant to give the citta a certain aspect of the experience -- for instance, panna would give it a clear correct understanding of what it is experiencing -- then the question would arise how does the "panna" or other cetasika transmit its perception of the dhamma to the citta? It makes a very complicated model even more complicated. And why is it necessary to even postulate this? Why can't the cetasika be like a filter on a camera that "colors" the experience for the lens [citta] rather than being yet another camera itself which will then have to download its experience to the citta in the brief period of time that they exist. > ------------------------------------ I can assure you I'm not personally arguing for one outcome over another, as I don't see that it matters. (I do however like to identify the orthodox textual view.) > ------------------------------------ > And doesn't this the create two separate versions of the dhamma which then need to be coordinated? How is citta's perception different from panna's or eye-door's or kusala's? How do they coordinate and merge into that one single dhamma that everyone insists on? You start getting multiple versions of the simple dhamma model which then have to be blended up. > ------------------------------------ Hoping to hear soon your own understanding of what "dhammas" as found in the suttas are. Jon #97053 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 2:26 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi pt > ------------------------------------ > Hi Jon and Lukas, thanks for your detailed responses. I think I understand what you are saying and agree with it in theory. Of course, I can't really confirm that's how I experience things at the moment - it still very much seems that there is a 'mover' behind every experience, or at least some sort of 'amness' even in the most 'kusala' moments I could detect. > ------------------------------------ I think it's much the same for everyone. When awareness is relatively undeveloped, no particular dhamma is seen clearly as it is. Perhaps your expectations are ahead of the reality of the situation ;-)) > ------------------------------------ Maybe that's just a conglomeration of conditions that come together and then seem like some sort of a mover, but that's how I experience things at the moment. Perhaps with time, I'll see things experientially a bit more like you do. Regardless, I'm glad to listen to what you have to say. > ------------------------------------ Well actually I was just repeating what I've picked up from my studies, rather than giving my own experience. Jon #97054 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 2:31 am Subject: Re: lobha - eko dhammo...avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti? jonoabb Hi Lukas > I think that one will be exact translation.(One paragraph is omited here) > ------------------------------------ Thanks, but I'm not sure that this sutta really addresses the question of why ignorance is the root cause of lobha, and why lobha isn't finally eradicated until ignorance is also eradicated (unlike dosa). To my understanding (but I don't know if this is directly stated in the texts), it has to do with the notion that unless and until the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattaa are fully penetrated, the idea of continued becoming will have appeal. Jon > ------------------------------------ > 'Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: > > "Lord, is there any one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" > > "Yes monk, there is one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." > > "What is that one thing?" > > "Ignorance, monk, is the one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises." 1 > > "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" > > "He sees the eye as something separate. He sees forms as something separate. He sees eye-consciousness as something separate. He sees eye-contact as something separate. And whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact — experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too he sees as something separate. ... > "This is how a monk knows, this is how a monk sees, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises."' #97055 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 2:33 am Subject: Re: Odd letters/charcters in text jonoabb Hi pt > ------------------------------------ > > 2. How, and at what stage, do you manually change the encoding? > > It needs to be changed before starting to type the reply. It's changed in the browser menu (I'm on Firefox): View -> Character Encoding -> Western (ISO-8859-1), or, Unicode (UTF-8). > > I guess these two encodings should work with most browsers. Mine at least seems to have issues only with posts with Japanese one. > ------------------------------------ Thanks for this further explanation. However, I'm not sure it explains the funny characters that appeared in your reply to Lukas' post. Would that be something else yet again? I'm attaching below some general remarks from the Opera help file on the subject. I think what I sometimes see on the list falls under #4 ("complete gibberish"), but fortunately only for certain letters/characters in the original (mostly special Pali characters or apostrophes, dashes, etc). If the gibberish characters crept in because the original poster did not have the necessary fonts installed on his hard drive, then I suppose the suggested solutions would be of no help. Is that how you'd see it? Jon Unicode support in Opera 1. Unicode is a technology that allows software to display characters from many of the world's languages in the same document. With Unicode, it is possible to write Russian, Polish, Greek, Hebrew, Japanese, and Chinese all in the same web page or document. 2. Opera fully supports Unicode. Since version 7.20, Opera also supports bi-directional text (BiDi), which is needed for sites written in the Hebrew and Arabic alphabets. However, you may still have some problems with specific languages or web pages. 3. If you see empty rectangles instead of the characters you expect, it usually means that your system does not have the proper fonts installed. Try downloading a Unicode font that includes the range of characters you need: Unicode fonts for Windows computers at: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fonts.html Despite the name of the page, these fonts can be used on any system that supports TrueType and OpenType fonts, including the Mac and most modern Linux and Unix systems. 4. If you see characters that are complete gibberish instead of what you expect, it means that there is a mismatch between the character set that the server sends, and what Opera expects. If this happens, you can try the following: a/. Choose View > Encoding > Automatic selection. This will display the web page in the encoding that the web server has specified. b/. If that does not work, and you know which encoding the web page should have, you can choose it from the menu in View > Encoding. If you only have a rough idea of which encoding the web page has, you can try several. c/. If the web server specifies the wrong character set (for example, the web server claims that it is written in UTF-8, but the page does not look right until you manually select ISO-8859-1), you may want to contact the publisher of the web page. #97056 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 2:36 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (1-3) , no 1,2, and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 1: RDs [ 221 ][ 4.1 ] Four applications of mindfulness,4.1 to wit:-- Herein, friends, let a brother as to the body ... as to feelings ... as to thoughts ... as to ideas continue so to look on these [severally and in order], that he remains ardent, self-possessed and mindful, overcoming both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. (Cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa. Idhaavuso, bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m. Vedanaasu vedanaanupassii.pe. citte cittaanupassii.pe. dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m.) ------- N: The co. states that the four applications of mindfulness have been explained in detail before. These are all namas and rupas that appear now, no matter under what application they have been classified. Thus, at one moment there can be mindfulness of rupa, the next moment of feeling or of citta. The application of mindfulness of dhamma includes rupa and nama under different aspects. It all depends on sati and pa~n~naa what object they take. They are mere dhammas, not self and they cannot be directed to specific objects. The classification as four applications is given so that people can be reminded that all realities in all situations can be object of mindfulness and understanding. ----------- Co: . Tattha satipa.t.thaanacatukka.m pubbe vitthaaritameva. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - sutta 2: Walshe DN 33.1.11(2) 'Four great efforts (sammappadhaanaa): Here a monk rouses his will, makes an effort, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives to prevent the arising of unarisen evil unwholesome mental states. He rouses his will ... and strives to overcome evil unwholesome mental states that have arisen. He rouses his will ... and strives to produce unarisen wholesome mental states. He rouses his will ... and strives to maintain wholesome mental states that have arisen, not to let them fade away, to bring them to greater growth, to the full perfection of development. (Cattaaro sammappadhaanaa. Idhaavuso, bhikkhu anuppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m anuppaadaaya chanda.m janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m pagga.nhaati padahati. Uppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m pahaanaaya chanda.m janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m pagga.nhaati padahati. Anuppannaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m uppaadaaya chanda.m janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m pagga.nhaati padahati. Uppannaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m .thitiyaa asammosaaya bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya bhaavanaaya paaripuuriyaa chanda.m janeti vaayamati viiriya.m aarabhati citta.m pagga.nhaati padahati.) -------- N: Co: He arouses zeal (chanda). Kusala zeal, called desire to act (kattukamyataa). As to the words, makes an effort (vaayamati), the Co adds: he makes a vigorous endeavour. As we read, he stirs up energy (viriya.m aarabhati), and exerts his mind (citta.m pagga.nhaati). The Co adds: he sustains citta. This is in brief. For details see the Analysis of the right efforts, sammappadhaanaa vibhanga (in the book of Analysis). The text of the subco is similar to the Dispeller of Delusion, (II p. 1,2.) There are several kinds of chanda: zeal of craving, of wrong view, of energy, of dhamma. Dhammacchanda, zeal for the dhamma, is intended here. As to energy, the subco adds that he cultivates and develops it (aasevati, bhaaveti). Energy is a mental body, it is a cetasika (kaayikacetasika viriya). It is repeatedly practised (bahuliikaroti). The subco speaks of one who practises it in all activities. ------- N: Right effort or energy accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path. It is not self, but a cetasika performing its function. It is repeatedly practised with perseverance in all activities when there are conditions for sati to be mindful of whatever dhamma appears through one of the six doorways. Sati is aware and at that moment understanding can develop so that the reality that is the object can be seen as a mere dhamma, not self. The accompanying energy performs its function already and there is no need to think of applying effort. ---------- 2.Sammappadhaanacatukke chanda.m janetiiti yo chando chandikataa kattukamyataa kusalo dhammacchandoti eva.m vutta.m kattukamyata.m janeti. Vaayamatiiti vaayaama.m karoti. Viiriya.m aarabhatiiti viiriya.m janeti. Citta.m pagga.nhaatiiti citta.m upatthambheti. Ayamettha sa"nkhepo . Vitthaaro pana sammappadhaanavibha"nge aagatoyeva. --------- Nina. #97057 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (13) sarahprocter... Dear Friends. Part 13: Satipa.t.thaana in all the Teachings "So when one reads about how the Buddha taught about kesaa lomaa nakhaa dantaa [hair of the head, of the body, finger nails, teeth]....in reality it's a way that he taught satipa.t.thaana." **** Ven Guttasila: I agree that samma samadhi.....there must be momentary concentration, but why is it that samatha was taught up to jhaana then? Sujin: Sometimes the Buddha talked about the highest level [of samatha] so that it's included in the object of satipa.t.thaana. For example, before the time of his enlightenment, nobody taught about satipa.t.thaana or the eightfold path at all. [So]can we say that jhaana citta before developing satipa.t.thaana was adhi-citta (higher concentration)? Another meaning of citta is samaadhi or samatha....It could be adhi-citta only when it’s the object of satipa.t.thaana. Those who had developed samatha before the time of the Buddha's enlightenment, their samaadhi citta was not adhi-citta, but when they had listened to his teachings and their satipa.t.thaana was aware of the samaadhi citta, that citta is adhi-citta –- adhi-siila, adhi-citta, adhi-pa~n~naa.... Ven G: Also I came across passages where someone has come to the Buddha and he has given a meditation subject [to them] first to develop. They don't become enlightened straight away, first they're given a subject to comtemplate. Sujin: But that does not exclude satipa.t.thaana at all. He can teach the eightfold path in different ways for those who understand the eightfold path. For example, we can talk about hair now when we have an understanding of developing awareness. We can talk about hair, but there can be awareness of hardness or of sight, of visual object. We can talk about nails, because now there is touching and we understand what nail is. So if there is touching of the nail, satipa.t.thaana can be aware of the true nature of what we take for nail and see the reality of nail as it is. So when one reads about how the Buddha taught about kesaa lomaa nakhaa dantaa [hair of the head, of the body, finger nails, teeth], they read and they think that he taught samatha bhaavanaa. But in reality it's a way that he taught satipa.t.thaana. Ven G: I think the prime purpose was satipa.t.thaana, but it seems at the same time, the purpose was of samatha, developing concentration. Sujin: You mean the kesaa, lomaa, nakhaa, dantaa? Samatha practice was practised before the eightfold path, so people understood how to develop samatha practice by concentrating on kesaa, lomaa, nakhaa, dantaa. But when the Buddha taught them about the eightfold path, he taught satipa.t.thaana, so those could be the objects of satipa.t.thaana. Ven G: Yes, but I'm thinking of the places where people came to the Buddha [who was] advocating samatha practices, for instance [various] meditations…. Sujin: But remember that the Buddha didn't accumulate [such] virtue only to teach samatha, so what's the purpose when he talked about kesaa lomaa nakhaa dantaa? To see realities as they are or to only be samatha? ***** Metta, Sarah ======= #97058 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (13) nilovg Dear Sarah, an important point. People often have questions about this, but it is here clearly explained. Nina. Op 3-apr-2009, om 11:52 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > So when one reads about how the Buddha taught about kesaa lomaa > nakhaa dantaa [hair of the head, of the body, finger nails, > teeth]....in reality it's a way that he taught satipa.t.thaana. #97059 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Emptiness and daily life. nilovg Dear Kevin, I read your post with interest. What I would like is more examples from daily life. Take seeing now, does it not have conditions? Without visible object impinging on the eyesense there could not be seeing. It arises, whatever arises has conditions for its arising. But it also falls away, and then another reality arises, such as thinking about what is seen or hearing. I prefer to talk about the Dhamma in concrete terms with examples of realities occurring now. When you explain which ideas you find good in Mahayana, it would help to give more examples. Sorry I cannot continue a discussion, since I am going away for a few days. Nina. Op 2-apr-2009, om 6:20 heeft westbankj@... het volgende geschreven: > The view that I hold is the view of freedom from extremes. It is > beyond > everything. Dharmas are not arising and falling away, there is just > vast > emptiness. #97060 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 4:06 am Subject: odd letters ptaus1 sorry all, another test regarding encoding (there's still one more to come) ./>?;':"[]{}-=_+ > #97061 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 4:15 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... ptaus1 /.?>';":][}{=-+_ "m" > #97062 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 4:29 am Subject: Re: Odd letters/charcters in text ptaus1 Hi Jon, I'm not sure anymore either. Just repeated the same thing I did last time, and this time both came out all right. Even more amazing - your reply #97053 to my gibberish post #97019 came out all right as well. So, I don't know what's going on. Regarding fonts, i don't really know. My (amateur) understanding is that the problem is usually at the reader's end with fonts - i.e. his machine can't read the original post since he has no font installed, and in that case changing character encoding wouldn't work either. Best wishes pt > #97063 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 5:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Mike, Robert A., Regarding: Jon: "My understanding would be as mentioned earlier, namely, that the observance (or undertaking) of the Uposotha is a matter of actual restraint, and that the act of resolving to restrain if a situation should arise does not actually fall within the 8 factors mentioned." Scott: In ~Naa.namoli's translation of The Illustrator of Meaning (Paramatthajotikaa) - the commentary to Minor Readings (Khuddhakataa.tha), on 'The Ten Training Precepts', is noted (pp.19-20, 35-36): "The words 'I undertake the training precepts of abstinence' (Verima.nii-sikkhaapada.m samdiyaami) are shared by all [ten]...Now as to the meaning: abstention (verama.nii) is abstinence (virati) associated with sensual-desire profitable cognizance (kaamaavacarakusalacittasampayuttaa virati), ... 'training' is virtue consisting in abstinence as custom, mundane insight, form and formless jhaana, and the Noble Path, according as it is said 'What ideas are trainings?' ... Also these ten training precepts are inferior when undertaken with inferior zeal or with inferior energy, cognizance, or inquiry; they are medium with medium [zeal, etc.]; and they are superior with superior [zeal and so on]. Or alternatively they are inferior when defiled by craving, wrong views, and conceit; they are medium when not so defiled; they are superior when aided by understanding in any instance. They are inferior when undertaken by profitable cognizance dissociated from knowledge; they are medium when undertaken by profitable cognizance associated with knowledge and prompted by determination; they are superior when undertaken by profitable cognizance associated with knowledge and unprompted by determination ..." Scott: The benefit of the commentary here is that it confirms that restraint is a function of consciousness, in this case 'kaamaavacarakusalacitta sampayutta virati'. It is not a matter of one saying to oneself, 'I will abstain...' Sincerely, Scott. #97064 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 5:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear pt, Regarding: pt: "Are dhammas in Theravada considered substantial? My understanding was that dhammas (other than nibbana) arise due to conditions, so to say they are substantial or not is wrong, because they are in fact conditioned. But, being a beginner, I might be wrong, so would appreciate your clarifications..." Scott: Yes a dhamma has characteristics. Apart from sharing the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, and not-self, each conditioned dhamma has its own characteristic. Arguments that suggest otherwise are derived from theoretical and philosophical elaborations that go beyond the mark. Each conditioned dhamma is an ultimate reality with its own characteristic. To say otherwise is to say nothing. Eye-consciousness differs from ear-consciousness in characteristic, function, and relation to object. Eye-consciousness has visible object as object and is seeing - it cannot have odour as object, for example; yet eye-conciousness is impermanent, suffering, and not-self. Sincerely, Scott. #97065 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 6:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m sarahprocter... Hi Lukas, As I understand.... --- On Wed, 1/4/09, szmicio wrote: >>L:so all cetasikas are object of clinging at that time? ... >S: No, the cetasikas accompany lobha which clings to its object. They all perform their own functions. L: So only one dhamma can be an object to clinging at a time. But each namakhandha is then conditioned by lobha by way of hetupaccaya. ... S: Yes, one dhamma only as object of clinging at a time. At that moment of clinging, the citta (and accompanying cetasikas) are conditioned by lobha hetu paccaya. ... So all 5 khadhas are then upaadaana khandhas or just one that is object to clinging? ... S: Only one can be the object of clinging (upaadaana khandha) at a time. Any khandha clung to is upaadaana khandha. Metta Sarah ======== #97066 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DSG photo album sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (Han & all), --- On Tue, 31/3/09, szmicio wrote: >L: I am forgeting about 6 doors constantly. Think about people and things again and againa[punappuna. m]. ... S: Here's another good 'punappuna.m' verse: Thig. v.204 (transl by Pruitt. "May you not have, Va.d.dha, craving for the world at any time. Child, do not share in pain again and again." "Maa su te Va.d.dha lokamhi vanatho ahu kudaacana.m Maa puttaka punappuna.m ahu dukkhassa bhaagimaa." From the comy: "There, in 'may you not have, Va.d.dha,' (maa su te Va.d.dha) 'craving' (vanatho) 'for the world at any time,' su [not translated] is only a particle. Va.d.dha, my child, may you not have (maa ahu = maa ahosi) at any time craving for the defilements (kilesa-vanatho) of every world of beings and world of formations. Then she explains the cause of this: 'child, do not share'(maa....ahu....bhaagimaa) 'in pain' (dukkhassa) 'again and again', which means: after cutting off craving, as a result of that, do not be one who shares in (bhaagii maa ahosi) the pain of birth, etc. (jaati-aadi-dukkhassa), again and again, over and over." S: I assure you, Lukas, that Va.d.dha was certainly not an ariyan either as the tale before the verse makes clear! ... >>S: Some might prefer not to hear about uncontrollable dhammas which are so very anatta, but there's no escape from them! >L: Yes, but moha was developed for so long. Moha is a dhatu. What is the characteristic of moha now? ... S: Ignorance of the reality appearing now. The reality lies behind the 'curtain' of ignorance. ... >L:Can moha be a condition for right understanding? ... S: It can be the object of right understanding now when it is experienced. ... >L:When there is moha there is no pa~n~na. >What's the characteristic of pa~n~na? ... S: Understanding, illuminating the reality which appears. Metta, Sarah ======= #97067 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 7:03 am Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila avalo1968 Hello Scott, Thank you for the very interesting reference. I would appreciate it is you could elaborate on a couple of points: From the reference: "training' is virtue consisting in abstinence as custom, mundane insight, form and formless jhaana, and the Noble Path" RA: "abstinence as custom and mundane insight" - what do you think he means by these terms? S: It is not a matter of one saying to oneself, 'I will abstain...' RA: Except that one does take the precepts specifically by saying "I undertake...". I recognize that the formula for taking precepts is not specifically in the suttas, but it is a useful exercise nonetheless, don't you think? In Nyanatiloka, caritta and varitta sila are defined as "performance of those moral rules the Blessed One has ordained to be followed and the avoidance of those that the Blessed One has rejected as not to be followed. What do you think he means by "performance of those moral rules"? What do you think he means by "performance of those moral rules" In DN 21: "'Bodily conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of bodily conduct, 'As I pursue this bodily conduct, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of bodily conduct is not to be pursued. When one knows of bodily conduct, 'As I pursue this bodily conduct, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of bodily conduct is to be pursued. 'Bodily conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said." What do you think he means by "as I pursue this bodily conduct". Thank you, Robert A. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Jon, Mike, Robert A., > > Regarding: > > Jon: "My understanding would be as mentioned earlier, namely, that the > observance (or undertaking) of the Uposotha is a matter of actual > restraint, and that the act of resolving to restrain if a situation > should arise does not actually fall within the 8 factors mentioned." > > Scott: In ~Naa.namoli's translation of The Illustrator of Meaning (Paramatthajotikaa) - the commentary to Minor Readings (Khuddhakataa.tha), on 'The Ten Training Precepts', is noted (pp.19-20, 35-36): > > "The words 'I undertake the training precepts of abstinence' (Verima.nii-sikkhaapada.m samdiyaami) are shared by all [ten]...Now as to the meaning: abstention (verama.nii) is abstinence (virati) associated with sensual-desire profitable cognizance (kaamaavacarakusalacittasampayuttaa virati), ... 'training' is virtue consisting in abstinence as custom, mundane insight, form and formless jhaana, and the Noble Path, according as it is said 'What ideas are trainings?' ... Also these ten training precepts are inferior when undertaken with inferior zeal or with inferior energy, cognizance, or inquiry; they are medium with medium [zeal, etc.]; and they are superior with superior [zeal and so on]. Or alternatively they are inferior when defiled by craving, wrong views, and conceit; they are medium when not so defiled; they are superior when aided by understanding in any instance. They are inferior when undertaken by profitable cognizance dissociated from knowledge; they are medium when undertaken by profitable cognizance associated with knowledge and prompted by determination; they are superior when undertaken by profitable cognizance associated with knowledge and unprompted by determination ..." > > Scott: The benefit of the commentary here is that it confirms that restraint is a function of consciousness, in this case 'kaamaavacarakusalacitta sampayutta virati'. It is not a matter of one saying to oneself, 'I will abstain...' > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #97068 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Precepts and Siila ashkenn2k Hi Mike In my own views, restraint of akusala acts would only be possible when kusala arise. Even if one personally resolve to restraint, then we have to ask ourselves whether such resolve is an attachment to lobha (self). It is through the understanding of dhamma, then could one practise the restraint and not the other way around. If one do not understand dhamma, could one knows why one should not kill or not to steal. First understanding, then it conditions restraint. All in the works of conditions. :-) Cheers Ken O #97069 From: mlnease Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 11:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Precepts and Siila m_nease Hi Ken O, Ken O wrote: > > Hi Mike > > In my own views, restraint of akusala acts would only be possible when > kusala arise. Even if one personally resolve to restraint, then we have > to ask ourselves whether such resolve is an attachment to lobha (self). > It is through the understanding of dhamma, then could one practise the > restraint and not the other way around. If one do not understand dhamma, > could one knows why one should not kill or not to steal. First > understanding, then it conditions restraint. All in the works of > conditions. :-) I agree completely with all this. No wholesome activity (mental, verbal or physical) can occur independently of understanding (and the beautiful universal factors) if I understand it correctly. I don't question this. My original post was (crudely) intended to raise the question of whether or not the Buddha was encouraging laypeople to undertake the eight precepts of the Uposatha for the duration of the Uposatha, as an emulation of the behavior of the arahanta; and the question of whether this was (a) an exhortation by the Buddha to undertake a deliberate, conventional 'practice' rather than, say, (b) a description of the activity of people with advanced attainments. This might've been a more useful post if I had articulated it better but this is what I had in mind. Thanks for you interest, Ken O, it really is a pleasure to hear from you. Your posts always elevate the discussion here in my opinion. mike #97070 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 3:20 pm Subject: Re: ANAPANASATI: no 3. kenhowardau Hi Silananda, -------- <. . .> S: > *Food for thought:* *For those who think that the jhanas are too difficult to be attained in these present times but Nibbana is not, and so they work on discernment without samadhi. But how could the harder (Nibbana) be achieved without achieving the easier (Jhanas). ------- Thanks for the food for thought. I agree that Nibbana is harder to attain than jhana. However, in some cases the conditions for experiencing Nibbana will be already be in place - because the hard work has been done. And in some of those cases the conditions for experiencing mundane jhana may not have been put in place. (Remember mundane jhana requires the stringent life of a recluse to have been lived.) So, in a case where the conditions for experiencing Nibbana have been put in place and the conditions for mundane jhana have not been put in place, jhana will be harder than Nibbana, won't it? The same applies to anything of course (visible object, lobha, alobha, dosa . .): if the conditions for it are in place it is possible; if the conditions for it are not in place it is impossible. If the conditions for it are strongly in place it is very possible; if the conditions for it are weakly in place it is slightly possible. What are your thoughts on that? Ken H #97071 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 7:24 pm Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila scottduncan2 Dear Robert, Regarding: R: "...'abstinence as custom and mundane insight' - what do you think he means by these terms?" Scott: I'll have to troll the Paa.li for 'custom', I think 'custom' is 'vata' but will have to look at the a.t.thakatthaapaa.li - I'll get back to you on it; right now I don't know. As for 'mundane insight' I'm thinking pa~n~naa that is not at the level of the Path, but I'll try to confirm. RA: "Except that one does take the precepts specifically by saying 'I undertake...'. I recognize that the formula for taking precepts is not specifically in the suttas, but it is a useful exercise nonetheless, don't you think?" Scott: No, I don't think so. Unless it is 'useful' to fool one's self. ;-) R: "In Nyanatiloka, caritta and varitta sila are defined as 'performance of those moral rules the Blessed One has ordained to be followed and the avoidance of those that the Blessed One has rejected as not to be followed'. What do you think he means by 'performance of those moral rules'?" Scott: I don't know what he means by that. He's a dictionary writer. Speaking of dictionaries, the PTS PED gives: "Siila (nt.) ... 1. nature, character, habit, behaviour ... 2. moral practice, good character ... " "Carita [pp. of caareti, see cara & carati] 1. (adj.) going, moving, being like, behaving ... 2. (nt.) action, behaviour, living ... See also carati 1b, 2b. Esp. freq. with su and duc : good, right, proper or (nt.) good action, right conduct ..." "Vaarita [pp. of vaareti ... ] obstructed, hindered; restrained (sabbavaari) see vaari." R: "What do you think he means by 'performance of those moral rules'" Scott: Again, I don't know. I suspect that by 'performance' one might wish to imply that it must be clear that this is something someone does. I say that unless pa~n~naa knows the nature of the dhammaa arising at the moment of inception - the naama, mind you, nothing to do with ruupa - then it doesn't matter in any way what sort of performance is presented by that which one takes as the person doing it. There is no point being misled by the illusions performed by the conceptual body which appears to do things and perform moral rules like a subtle puppet. Siila is restraint and restraint is a function of kusala citta because when kusala citta is ascendant, there is no akusala. This is the restraint. There is no one who restrains, as I see it. R: "In DN 21: "'Bodily conduct (Kaayasamaacaara.mpaaha.m) is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued. (sevitabbampi asevitabbampiiti)' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of bodily conduct, 'As I pursue this bodily conduct, unskillful mental qualities (akusalaa dhammaa) increase, and skillful mental qualities (kusalaa dhammaa) decline,' that sort of bodily conduct is not to be pursued. When one knows of bodily conduct, 'As I pursue this bodily conduct, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of bodily conduct is to be pursued. 'Bodily conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said." Scott: Whose translation is this? Kaayasamaacaara.mpaaha.m , devaanaminda, duvidhena vadaami sevitabbampi asevitabbampiiti iti kho paneta.m vutta.m, ki~nceta.m pa.ticca vutta.m? Tattha ya.m ja~n~naa kaayasamaacaara.m 'ima.m kho me kaayasamaacaara.m sevato akusalaa dhammaa abhiva.d.dhanti, kusalaa dhammaa parihaayantii 'ti, evaruupo kaayasamaacaaro na sevitabbo. Tattha ya.m ja~n~naa kaayasamaacaara.m 'ima.m kho me kaayasamaacaara.m sevato akusalaa dhammaa parihaayanti, kusalaa dhammaa abhiva.d.dhantii 'ti, evaruupo kaayasamaacaaro sevitabbo. Kaayasamaacaara.mpaaha.m, devaanaminda, duvidhena vadaami " sevitabbampi, asevitabbampiiti iti ya.m ta.m vutta.m, idameta.m pa.ticca vutta.m. R: "What do you think he means by 'as I pursue this bodily conduct'." Scott: He does not mean anything to do with a self, since there is no self at all ever. This is merely conventional speech and not to be taken literally. I'll continue to look into this, Robert. Sincerely, Scott. #97072 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 8:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (1-3) , no 3 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (1-3) sutta 3: Walshe DN 33.1.11(3) 'Four roads to power (iddhipaadaa): Here a monk develops concentration of intention accompanied by effort of will, concentration of energy, ... [iii 222] concentration of consciousness, and concentration of investigation accompanied by effort and will. (Cattaaro iddhipaadaa. Idhaavuso, bhikkhu chandasamaadhipadhaanasa'nkhaarasamannaagata.m iddhipaada.m bhaaveti. Cittasamaadhipadhaanasa'nkhaarasamannaagata.m iddhipaada.m bhaaveti. Viiriyasamaadhipadhaanasa'nkhaarasamannaagata.m iddhipaada.m bhaaveti. Viima.msaasamaadhipadhaanasa'nkhaarasamannaagata.m iddhipaada.m bhaaveti.) -------- N: Iddhipaadaa is also translated as bases of success. They are classified among the factors leading to enlightenment. They are: chanda, citta (firmness of kusala citta or concentration), energy or viriya, and vima.msaa or investigation, another word for pa~n~naa. They are actually the four predominant factors. In the context of the bases of success, only the factors which are sobhana are dealt with. Citta can be a predominance-condition for the accompanying cetasikas, but not all cittas can be predominance-condition. Predominance-condition can operate only in the case of javana-cittas accompanied by at least two roots. All mah-kusala cittas (kusala cittas of the sense-sphere) and all mah-kiriyacittas (of the arahat), have the two roots of alobha, non- attachment, and adosa, non- aversion, and, in addition, they can have the root which is pa, thus, they have two or three roots and, therefore, they can be predominance-condition for the accompanying dhammas. When we accomplish a task with cittas which are resolute, firmly established in kusala, the citta can be the predominance- condition for the accompanying dhammas. With regard to investigation of the Dhamma, vimasa, this is pa cetasika. When we listen to the Dhamma, consider it and are mindful of realities, vimasa can condition the accompanying citta and cetasikas by way of predominance-condition. The Co explains the term chandasamaadhi: with regard to the bases of success samaadhi is dependent on chanda. Here chanda is the predominant factor. The Co explains the term padhaanasa'nkhaarasamannaagata: possessed of the volitional formations (sankhaara) which are effort. According to the Dispeller of Delusion (p. 17) : This is a term for right effort which accomplishes the four functions. The four functions were explained in the previous section, the four right efforts. Viriyasamaadhi is concentration obtained by making energy predominant, and in the same way for cittasamaadhi and viimamsaasamaadhi. ------ N: For the arising of jhaanacitta and lokuttara citta, the four bases of success are indispensable. ------------ Pali co: . Iddhipaadesu chanda.m nissaaya pavatto samaadhi chandasamaadhi... ********* Nina. #97073 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 8:55 pm Subject: [dsg] ANAPANASATI: no 5. nilovg Dear friends, The Visuddhimagga (XII, 8) explains how difficult even the preliminary work is, and how difficult access-concentration and jhna are. We read about each stage:One in a hundred or thousand can do it. If one leads a worldly life and is busy with ones daily tasks there are no favourable conditions for jhna. One cannot expect to attain jhna if one just for a little while every day concentrates on breathing. Moreover, it is not concentration which should be stressed but right understanding, pa. There must be right understanding of breath which is rpa, conditioned by citta. It appears at the nose- tip or upper-lip, but it is very subtle. We should remember that mindfulness of breathing is one of the most difficult subjects of meditation. We read in the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 211): But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas, and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons Buddhas sons were the great disciples who had accumulated excellent qualities and skill for jhna. Who can pretend to be among them? Mindfulness of breathing is a meditation subject of samatha and it is also included in one of the Four Applications of Mindfulness, Satipatthna, under the section of Mindfulness of the Body. Thus, it can be applied in samatha and in vipassan. We have to study this subject very carefully in order to avoid misunderstandings. ******* Nina. #97074 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 8:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness ptaus1 Hi Scott, thanks for your reply. If you have time, it be great to pick apart this subject a bit more. When you say that a dhamma has characteristics, I have no problem with that. But is that reason enough to call dhammas substantial? My problem with substantial is that it implies existence, and with it the notion of self sneaks in. But, if referred to as conditioned, then no self can sneak in since every dhamma is just a temporary or momentary combination of conditions, which is utterly gone in the next moment. So my take on arising and falling of dhammas is that it is a process of combination of conditions, not a procession of substantial entities. To give an illustration about the difference, which might be a bit more clear: Substantial dhamma for me would be like a ball, which is carried and pushed around by the sea, waves, wind, rain, etc, all these being basically various conditions. The ball of course is a substantial thing. A conditioned dhamma for me would be like an appearance of a crest of a wave, which arises thanks to all the conditions like sea, wind, rain, etc, and then completely disappears, being replaced by a different appearance of a crest, in the next moment. So it is not existent or substantial on its own, but is just a temporary combination or coming together of these conditions like water, wind, rain, etc. If you disagree with any of the above, it would be great to hear how. Thanks pt > Scott: Yes a dhamma has characteristics. Apart from sharing the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha, and not-self, each conditioned dhamma has its own characteristic. Arguments that suggest otherwise are derived from theoretical and philosophical elaborations that go beyond the mark. Each conditioned dhamma is an ultimate reality with its own characteristic. To say otherwise is to say nothing. Eye-consciousness differs from ear-consciousness in characteristic, function, and relation to object. Eye-consciousness has visible object as object and is seeing - it cannot have odour as object, for example; yet eye-conciousness is impermanent, suffering, and not-self.' _ #97075 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 9:50 pm Subject: Stages of insight ptaus1 Hi all, could someone please recommend me a book or article that explains all the stages of insight in detail? I read Mahasi Sayadaw"s Progress of insight, but he explains everything through his noting method, so I was hoping for a description that doesnft rely on a method. Thanks pt > #97076 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 10:39 pm Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila avalo1968 Hello again Scott, Thank you very much for your kind responses to my many questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > Regarding: > > R: "...'abstinence as custom and mundane insight' - what do you think he means by these terms?" > > Scott: I'll have to troll the Paa.li for 'custom', I think 'custom' is 'vata' but will have to look at the a.t.thakatthaapaa.li - I'll get back to you on it; right now I don't know. As for 'mundane insight' I'm thinking pa~n~naa that is not at the level of the Path, but I'll try to confirm. > RA: I looked up 'vata' and found a definition of "religious duty or observation" which I believe fits for the quote above - 'abstinence as religious duty or observation'. I took 'mundane insight' to be wisdom of a type which is common to many people, even those who are not familiar with the Buddha's teachings. ---------------------------------- > RA: "Except that one does take the precepts specifically by saying 'I undertake...'. I recognize that the formula for taking precepts is not specifically in the suttas, but it is a useful exercise nonetheless, don't you think?" > > Scott: No, I don't think so. Unless it is 'useful' to fool one's self. ;-) RA: The taking of precepts is a ritual. I find ritual to be useful, so I guess we will leave this one as a disagreement and one I feel confident we will never bridge. ----------------------------------------------- > > R: "In Nyanatiloka, caritta and varitta sila are defined as 'performance of those moral rules the Blessed One has ordained to be followed and the avoidance of those that the Blessed One has rejected as not to be followed'. What do you think he means by 'performance of those moral rules'?" > > Scott: I don't know what he means by that. He's a dictionary writer. Speaking of dictionaries, the PTS PED gives: > > "Siila (nt.) ... 1. nature, character, habit, behaviour ... 2. moral practice, good character ... " > > "Carita [pp. of caareti, see cara & carati] 1. (adj.) going, moving, being like, behaving ... 2. (nt.) action, behaviour, living ... See also carati 1b, 2b. Esp. freq. with su and duc : good, right, proper or (nt.) good action, right conduct ..." > > "Vaarita [pp. of vaareti ... ] obstructed, hindered; restrained (sabbavaari) see vaari." > > R: "What do you think he means by 'performance of those moral rules'" > > Scott: Again, I don't know. I suspect that by 'performance' one might wish to imply that it must be clear that this is something someone does. > > I say that unless pa~n~naa knows the nature of the dhammaa arising at the moment of inception - the naama, mind you, nothing to do with ruupa - then it doesn't matter in any way what sort of performance is presented by that which one takes as the person doing it. There is no point being misled by the illusions performed by the conceptual body which appears to do things and perform moral rules like a subtle puppet. > > Siila is restraint and restraint is a function of kusala citta because when kusala citta is ascendant, there is no akusala. This is the restraint. There is no one who restrains, as I see it. > RA: I would only point out that Nanamoli Bhikku, the author of your original quote, was, I believe, a student of that 'dictionary writer'. > R: "In DN 21: > > "'Bodily conduct (Kaayasamaacaara.mpaaha.m) is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued. (sevitabbampi asevitabbampiiti)' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of bodily conduct, 'As I pursue this bodily conduct, unskillful mental qualities (akusalaa dhammaa) increase, and skillful mental qualities (kusalaa dhammaa) decline,' that sort of bodily conduct is not to be pursued. When one knows of bodily conduct, 'As I pursue this bodily conduct, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of bodily conduct is to be pursued. 'Bodily conduct is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said." > > Scott: Whose translation is this? > RA: Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.21.2x.than.html > Kaayasamaacaara.mpaaha.m , devaanaminda, duvidhena vadaami sevitabbampi asevitabbampiiti iti kho paneta.m vutta.m, ki~nceta.m pa.ticca vutta.m? Tattha ya.m ja~n~naa kaayasamaacaara.m 'ima.m kho me kaayasamaacaara.m sevato akusalaa dhammaa abhiva.d.dhanti, kusalaa dhammaa parihaayantii 'ti, evaruupo kaayasamaacaaro na sevitabbo. Tattha ya.m ja~n~naa kaayasamaacaara.m 'ima.m kho me kaayasamaacaara.m sevato akusalaa dhammaa parihaayanti, kusalaa dhammaa abhiva.d.dhantii 'ti, evaruupo kaayasamaacaaro sevitabbo. Kaayasamaacaara.mpaaha.m, devaanaminda, duvidhena vadaami " sevitabbampi, asevitabbampiiti iti ya.m ta.m vutta.m, idameta.m pa.ticca vutta.m. > > R: "What do you think he means by 'as I pursue this bodily conduct'." > > Scott: He does not mean anything to do with a self, since there is no self at all ever. This is merely conventional speech and not to be taken literally. I'll continue to look into this, Robert. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > RA: I agree with you that it is 'conventional speech', but I believe there is a lot of useful such speech in the Suttas and think we should pay attention to it. I appreciate very much the time you took to provide answers to these questions. Regards, Robert A. #97077 From: slnanda Date: Fri Apr 3, 2009 8:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ANAPANASATI: no 3. silananda_t Hi Ken, Dhamma greetings. > Remember mundane jhana requires the stringent life of a recluse to have been lived. No. this is not true. If one were to have attended retreats on jhanas, one would know that this statement is not untrue. Even for a short 10-day retreat. Lay people do attain them. Difficult but not impossible. Question for appropriate consideration (yonisomanasikara) : *Can Nibbana be attained if one's mind is short of 'one-pointedness' ?* *Put in another way, can a noble one have a mind which is not "still " ?* mahakaruna, ~silananda On 4/4/09, kenhowardau wrote: > <. . .> > Thanks for the food for thought. I agree that Nibbana is harder to attain > than jhana. However, in some cases the conditions for experiencing Nibbana > will be already be in place - because the hard work has been done. And in > some of those cases the conditions for experiencing mundane jhana may not > have been put in place. (Remember mundane jhana requires the stringent life > of a recluse to have been lived.) So, in a case where the conditions for > experiencing Nibbana have been put in place and the conditions for mundane > jhana have not been put in place, jhana will be harder than Nibbana, won't > it? <...> #97078 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 1:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ANAPANASATI: no 3. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com , slnanda wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > Dhamma greetings. > > Remember mundane jhana requires the stringent life of a recluse to have > been lived. > No. this is not true. If one were to have attended retreats on jhanas, one > would know that this statement is not untrue. Even for a short 10-day > retreat. Lay people do attain them. Difficult but not impossible. <. . .> Hi Silananda, Thanks for continuing the discussion; this is an important point. But do we share the same understanding of the word "jhana?" I think I know something about the jhana that is said to be attained at 10 day retreats. I have had some experience of that sort of thing in the past. But now that I have seen jhana described in the Pali texts - in the Visuddhimagga, for example - I have a very different understanding. As I think you will agree, it is usual for a prospective student to first be accepted by a jhana master. Not everyone will be accepted. (I suspect only very exceptional applicants would be.) Then they undertake a very long and exacting course of training. According to my reading of the Visuddhimagga, only "one in a hundred or one in a thousand" of those accepted students will ever attain access concentration (the stage before the first jhana). Of those, "only one in a hundred or one in a thousand" will go on to attain the first jhana. And so on it goes until we can calculate that a jhana master is a very, very rare 'one in a trillion or so' type of individual. People today do not hold jhana and jhana masters in such high esteem. They see jhana as something that quite ordinary people can do - people like me who are subject to the ordinary temptations and fallibilities of everyday life. They think we can live that way, take a 10 day course and attain jhana, and then return to our ordinary, worldly ways - alternating as we please. --------------- S: > Question for appropriate consideration (yonisomanasikara) : *Can Nibbana be attained if one's mind is short of 'one-pointedness' ?* *Put in another way, can a noble one have a mind which is not "still " ?* ---------------- There are two ways of answering that question. Firstly, if we are talking about Magga-citta we will know that it is always accompanied by calm one-pointedness. No matter what happened in the preceding cittas, the actual Magga-citta always has calm concentration equivalent to the level of the first mundane-jhana or higher. Secondly, if we are talking in conventional terms about the behaviour that preceded the moment of attainment it is less clear-cut. There can't be any hard and fast rules about that. There are examples in the suttas where a man attained enlightenment immediately after cutting his throat in an act of suicide - or after jumping off a cliff. In another, less dramatic, example it happened when a woman was cooking in her kitchen and saw that she had burnt the curry. Ken H #97079 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 1:41 am Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila jonoabb Hi Mike > --------------------------------------- > Yes, your probably right. Thanks for your time. > --------------------------------------- A rather reluctant-sounding agreement! I'm wondering if you see the taking of the precepts as being something more than resolving to restrain if a situation arises. Do you perhaps see it as a kind of determination that has effect on an ongoing basis? Please share more of your thoughts on this. Jon #97080 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Precepts and Siila jonoabb Hi Ken O Welcome back! > --------------------------------------- > In my own views, restraint of akusala acts would only be possible when kusala arise. Even if one personally resolve to restraint, then we have to ask ourselves whether such resolve is an attachment to lobha (self). It is through the understanding of dhamma, then could one practise the restraint and not the other way around. If one do not understand dhamma, could one knows why one should not kill or not to steal. First understanding, then it conditions restraint. All in the works of conditions. :-) > --------------------------------------- Yes, if understanding is developed, then restraint is also being developed. While it is possible for there to be restraint without the development of understanding, restraint that is not "perfected" by virtue of stream entry is of finite duration it won't last. Jon #97082 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 1:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila jonoabb Hi Scott Thanks for the passage. Directly on point! > --------------------------------------- > Scott: In ~Naa.namoli's translation of The Illustrator of Meaning (Paramatthajotikaa) - the commentary to Minor Readings (Khuddhakataa.tha), on 'The Ten Training Precepts', is noted (pp.19-20, 35-36): > > "The words 'I undertake the training precepts of abstinence' (Verima.nii-sikkhaapada.m samdiyaami) are shared by all [ten]...Now as to the meaning: abstention (verama.nii) is abstinence (virati) associated with sensual-desire profitable cognizance (kaamaavacarakusalacittasampayuttaa virati), ... 'training' is virtue consisting in abstinence as custom, mundane insight, form and formless jhaana, and the Noble Path,... > --------------------------------------- Regarding abstinence as "custom", I would say this is a reference to kusala that is not of the level of awareness. I believe "custom" can sometimes refer to maintaining one's family's name or practices (charitable and the like). So it could be the equivalent of restraint motivated by not wanting to give the family a bad name. > --------------------------------------- > according as it is said 'What ideas are trainings?' > --------------------------------------- And I suppose "ideas" here is "dhammas" again. > --------------------------------------- ..." > > Scott: The benefit of the commentary here is that it confirms that restraint is a function of consciousness, in this case 'kaamaavacarakusalacitta sampayutta virati'. It is not a matter of one saying to oneself, 'I will abstain...' > --------------------------------------- Thanks again for the passage (and your comments). Jon #97083 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 2:21 am Subject: Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E > > Jon: Anicca, dukkha and anatta are known as the 3 characteristics, i.e., characteristics *of dhammas*. > > Yes, but that doesn't settle the issue at all. As Bill Clinton might have liked to say, 'what does *of* mean?' ... If I say, "Oh I just noticed that my wife has left the room," "Left the room" is not a characteristic of my wife, it is something I have understood about where she is or is not. It has nothing to do with *her characteristics,* but of something *about* her movement in space or time. > --------------------------------------- I hear what you are saying. You're saying that while the terms anicca, dukkha and anattaa are *descriptive* of dhammas, they are not to be regarded as *inherent characteristics* of dhammas. I'm wondering if this is an idea you've come to after a study of the suttas, or whether it's a view you've read about somewhere and find appealing. I don't suppose it matters. I'd say again that the suttas speak at length about dhammas, and the need for dhammas to be understood, so regardless of how these "characteristics" fit into the general picture of dhammas, the point of greatest importance is an understanding of how there could possibly be the development of insight at this moment as (for me) I'm writing this post or (for you) you're reading it. > --------------------------------------- Likewise, anicca is not substantial. If you take the concept of insubstantiality and impermanence, it is quite perverse to then make that substantial in its own right and reify it into a thing in its own right. > --------------------------------------- Here's that bogeyman of "reification" again ;-)). It's a purely manufactured evil. There's no such wrong view in the texts! > --------------------------------------- > Anatta is not a "characteristic" in the sense of "belonging" to the object, or you are increasing its entity, ...... If "hardness" is x and only x, then for that brief moment it is a substantial definable entity in its own right, with boundaries, characteristics and own-being. This seems to me to be against the grain of the Buddha's teaching of the nature of reality. > --------------------------------------- I'm glad to see you referring to the teachings on the "nature of reality". I'd like to hear your own views on what that is. Jon #97084 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 4:20 am Subject: bdhst tchng on physical phenomena gazita2002 hallo Nina and other friends, thank you for the book Nina, and would like to reproduce a little of it here. "The study of rupas can help us to have more understanding of the sense objects and of the doorways of the senses through which these objects are experienced. If we do not have a foundation knowledge of objects and doorways we cannot know how to be aware of one reality at a time as it appears at the present moment. The study of nama and rupa can be a condition for the arising of direct awareness later on. .....The aim of the understanding of nama and rupa is the eradication of the wrong view of self and freedom from enslavement to defilements" I was thinking about the rupa which is sense base [any base - no one in particular]. How this very particular rupa arises and falls away completely without any control from 'us'. The combination of rupa of sense-base, the citta which arises at that base and experiences an object, and the object which is experienced - its happening now, this very moment, - how anatta is that!!! Who knows what the next object will be? patience, courage and good cheer, azita #97085 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 5:11 am Subject: Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m szmicio Dear Sarah > So all 5 khadhas are then upaadaana khandhas or just one that is object to clinging? > ... > S: Only one can be the object of clinging (upaadaana khandha) at a time. L: So If only one khandha is upaadaana khandha, that one which is an object of clinging, what's with the rest of khandhas? They are not upaadaana khandhas at that moment? But lobha condition citta and all cetasikas by way of hetupaccaya. Only ruupa isnt condition by hetus. So if there is lobha-mula-citta then all cetasikas should be upaadaana khandha. There is no other way. Best wishes Lukas #97086 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 1:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness upasaka_howard Hi, pt (and Scott) - I will be in the minority here on this, pt, but I'd like to let you know that I very much like your perspective as expressed in this post. I especially like one paragraph about which I will insert a comment in context. In a message dated 4/3/2009 11:59:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi Scott, thanks for your reply. If you have time, it be great to pick apart this subject a bit more. When you say that a dhamma has characteristics, I have no problem with that. But is that reason enough to call dhammas substantial? My problem with substantial is that it implies existence, and with it the notion of self sneaks in. But, if referred to as conditioned, then no self can sneak in since every dhamma is just a temporary or momentary combination of conditions, which is utterly gone in the next moment. So my take on arising and falling of dhammas is that it is a process of combination of conditions, not a procession of substantial entities. To give an illustration about the difference, which might be a bit more clear: Substantial dhamma for me would be like a ball, which is carried and pushed around by the sea, waves, wind, rain, etc, all these being basically various conditions. The ball of course is a substantial thing. A conditioned dhamma for me would be like an appearance of a crest of a wave, which arises thanks to all the conditions like sea, wind, rain, etc, and then completely disappears, being replaced by a different appearance of a crest, in the next moment. So it is not existent or substantial on its own, but is just a temporary combination or coming together of these conditions like water, wind, rain, etc. ------------------------------------------------- I think this description is superb, pt! The crest-of-a-wave simile beautifully captures the middle-way mode of existence that I think is central to the Dhamma. -------------------------------------------------- If you disagree with any of the above, it would be great to hear how. --------------------------------------------------- I suspected that there would be much (friendly) disagreement, and so I took the opportunity to balance that out a bit my stating my admiration for what you wrote. :-) ---------------------------------------------------- Thanks pt ============================ With metta, Howard Emptiness /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #97087 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 5:32 am Subject: Re: lobha - eko dhammo...avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti? szmicio Dear Jon > Thanks, but I'm not sure that this sutta really addresses the question of why ignorance is the root cause of lobha, and why lobha isn't finally eradicated until ignorance is also eradicated (unlike dosa). L: As long there is moha there is always lobha present. There is also another Avija Sutta(SN 45.1): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.001.than.html "The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience & lack of concern. In an unknowledgeable person, immersed in ignorance, wrong view arises. In one of wrong view, wrong resolve arises. In one of wrong resolve, wrong speech... In one of wrong speech, wrong action... In one of wrong action, wrong livelihood... In one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort... In one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness... In one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration arises." There is also Pattica-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html > To my understanding (but I don't know if this is directly stated in the texts), it has to do with the notion that unless and until the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattaa are fully penetrated, the idea of continued becoming will have appeal. L: Are you talking about Avija Sutta or something else? I see Avija Sutta quite diffrent. It's a really good reminder for all of us. My best wishes Lukas #97088 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 5:48 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... szmicio Dear Jon > > > Yes, akusala citta can be a condition for kusala citta (an example would be giving a donation in part because of wanting to be seen as a generous person, i.e., conceit). > > > > L: There are also similar examples in Tipitaka, but I dont think so that is a correct and exact example of kusala citta being conditioned by akusala. It's just a simile, and it's OK. But only pa~n~na can know how it all happens. I think that is a matter of direct understanding of realities. > > ----------------------------- > > Well there is a connection, I would say, but it's not a very direct one. I think we've all had the experience of unwholesome deeds or thoughts being followed very closely by wholesome thoughts, because of some association made. L: I think that akusala citta can condition kusala, just it. When we say that dosa can be an object to right understanding, isnt it better example? My best wishes Lukas #97089 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 5:49 am Subject: Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear pt, Regarding: pt: "When you say that a dhamma has characteristics, I have no problem with that. But is that reason enough to call dhammas substantial?" Scott: I find it a bit problematic to continue, since the view you are arguing is essentially mahayana and, while I don't mind what you believe, I don't feel a need to convince you and I simply don't find these ideas to be of interest to me - i.e. to be correct. 'Substantial' is your term. How do you define it? As Jon wrote to Robert E., this view comes from some idea that to consider a dhamma to have characteristic is to somehow 'reify' it or, as you suggest, make of it 'a little self'. Where have you read this in the texts? Naama (citta and cetasika), ruupa, and Nibbaana are paramattha dhammaa. They are realities. This means they 'exist' and this is no problem either. The first two (three) are immaterial; ruupa is material. Both (or all three) have characteristics. Nibbaana is the unconditioned dhamma, with characteristics as well. If creative philosophers want to come up with new and esoteric theories about substantiality versus insubstantiality so be it, but I don't get turned on by these. They are beyond the mark. pt: "My problem with substantial is that it implies existence, and with it the notion of self sneaks in..." Scott: Paramattha dhammaa exist - it just doesn't make sense to suggest they don't. Those dhammaa that are conditioned (leaving out Nibbaana) arise and fall away. Their 'existence' is real but impermanent. This is why I don't buy the mahayana project. All paramattha dhammaa are not-self - this is a characteristic of a paramattha dhamma. 'No self sneaks in'. They are not 'nothings' which seems to be what is suggested. pt: "...But, if referred to as conditioned, then no self can sneak in since every dhamma is just a temporary or momentary combination of conditions, which is utterly gone in the next moment." Scott: What are 'conditions' as you understand them? This is a mere substitution of the term 'conditions' for the term 'dhammaa' and trying to say that nothing conditions nothing or that everything is conditions. 'Condition' (paccaya) is not a synonym for 'dhamma'. Dhammaa arise due to conditions and are conditions one for another (in complex ways,) but dhammaa with characteristics are what serve as conditions in various ways for the ongoing arising and ceasing of the conditioned world. pt: "So my take on arising and falling of dhammas is that it is a process of combination of conditions, not a procession of substantial entities..." Scott: What are 'conditions' in your view? I've heard this exact argument before. pt: "...Substantial dhamma for me would be like a ball, which is carried and pushed around by the sea, waves, wind, rain, etc, all these being basically various conditions. The ball of course is a substantial thing." Scott: The simile is problematic. Considering eye-consciousness in a very simplified manner for a moment, it arises with visible object and eye-base as conditions. The arising of these dhammaa are condition for contact, also naama, and then there is seeing. This all falls away. Eye-consciousness is real. Seeing is real. Seeing can be condition for the arising of other dhammaa. I don't know if you mean 'real' when you say 'substantial'. The Path consists of paramattha dhammaa functioning by condition, having reality. Nibbaana is real and becomes a real object for a set of real dhammaa having real development and, the penetration of Nibbaana by pa~n~naa which arises with citta really is condition for the real eradication of kilesas. pt: "A conditioned dhamma for me would be like an appearance of a crest of a wave, which arises thanks to all the conditions like sea, wind, rain, etc, and then completely disappears, being replaced by a different appearance of a crest, in the next moment. So it is not existent or substantial on its own, but is just a temporary combination or coming together of these conditions like water, wind, rain, etc." Scott: Conditions disappear because dhammaa arise and fall away. Dhammaa serve as condition for other dhammaa and the dynamics of the interactions between dhammaa and their varied characteristics is what defines conditionality. One can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Dhammaa with characteristics and having momentary reality are what make the conditioned world go round. At any rate, pt, we don't agree. I'll be happy to clarify terms and the like but, since you believe in the mahayana project and since there is no point in pushing on matters of belief, I'll stop now. Sincerely, Scott. #97090 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 5:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila avalo1968 Hello Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > > Regarding abstinence as "custom", I would say this is a reference to kusala that is not of the level of awareness. > > I believe "custom" can sometimes refer to maintaining one's family's name or practices (charitable and the like). So it could be the equivalent of restraint motivated by not wanting to give the family a bad name. > Thank you for this explanation. May I ask you to elaborate a little further as to what you mean by "kusala that is not of the level of awareness". Regards, Robert A. #97091 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 5:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A leisurely 'Dhamma' afternoon tea with Jessica szmicio Dear Sarah > >That's so good reminder, it teaches me that everything is anatta, we cannot control anything. Sanna remembers, not we. > ... > S: Yes, and who knows what sanna will mark and remember from moment to moment....(usually nonsense in my case...)/ L: And I am still taking it for 'me, mine'. Notion of "Self" is so deep rooted. > ... > >Once I had to take my antibiotics and stayed in the kitchen for some time, trying to remember whether I took it or not. Then there was emptiness in my head. Then I realized that i took it before(but it takes me some time to realise it.). Everything is so fleeting, arise on its own conditions. > ... > S: OK, I have one to match....sometimes I just can't remember whether I've brushed my teeth or not.... I stand dithering around and end up thinking I'd better brush them again to be on the safe side... > > As for cooking - when Jon was last away, I cooked one meal and almost had a fire on my hands, so now I don't attempt it. I just stick to congee in a congee pot which I can just about manage and always eat my lunches (or brunches) out. > > I used to think it was getting older.... L: Yeah, there is a lot of ideas. I take this ideas for my ideas. >S: until I'd start asking my students to give short talks about the books they'd just finished reading. Many of the students couldn't even remember the names of the main characters a day after finishing the books.... L: Are you a teacher, Sarah? Well, you never introduced yourself to me. > As you say, it all depends on conditioned sanna and other factors like chanda. L: Yes, what is the role of chanda here? What is the characteristic of chanda? My best wishes Lukas #97092 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila sarahprocter... Hi Scott, Jon, Robert A, Mike, Ken O & all, --- On Sat, 4/4/09, jonoabb wrote: >I believe "custom" can sometimes refer to maintaining one's family's name or practices (charitable and the like). So it could be the equivalent of restraint motivated by not wanting to give the family a bad name. .. S: Yes, you do pretty well 'on the run' in Fiji! Vism 1:42 "Each clan's or locality's or sect's own rules of conduct are customary virtue." Lots more, of course, in this chapter of Vism. Also in CMA II, Guide to 6 on the three types of virati (restraints) as found in the commentaries: 1) natural abstinence (sampattavirati) 2) abstinence by undertaking precepts (samaadaanavirati) 3) abstinence by eradication (saucchedavirati). You may find some leads in a couple of posts I wrote before on the general topic of virati and samaadaana: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/57167 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44853 Yes, two kinds of siila as vaaritta and caaritta - siila as abstention and siila as behaviour (i.e whenever the kusala citta is not daana, siila or bhaavanaa, such as when one is helpful or friendly). A good thread - great to see the 'challenging' and helpful comments and questions from Rob A & Mike as usual:-). I agree with you, Mike, about Ken O's contributions, same with yours too. Ken O, great to see you again, chirpy and to the point as usual:-). Metta, Sarah ====== #97093 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stages of insight sarahprocter... Hi Pt, --- On Sat, 4/4/09, ptaus1 wrote: >Hi all, could someone please recommend me a book or article that explains all the stages of insight in detail? ... S: For a short summary, I recommend CMA (the translation of Abhidhammattha Sangaha, edited by B.Bodhi with extensive notes). For a detailed summary, I recommend "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, which can be found on line at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/1746908-alanweller?page=1 For great detail, I'd turn to the Visuddhimagga where the subject is dealt with in several chapters. ... >I read Mahasi Sayadaw"s Progress of insight, but he explains everything through his noting method, so I was hoping for a description that doesn't rely on a method. .... S: Yes, I think it's extremely misleading. Metta, Sarah ====== #97094 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Precepts and Siila sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Ken O wrote: >In my own views, restraint of akusala acts would only be possible when kusala arise. Even if one personally resolve to restraint, then we have to ask ourselves whether such resolve is an attachment to lobha (self). ... S: I think this is such a good point to consider. Like when one resolves to have more metta or be a nice person....what are the motives? ... >It is through the understanding of dhamma, then could one practise the restraint and not the other way around. If one do not understand dhamma, could one knows why one should not kill or not to steal. First understanding, then it conditions restraint. All in the works of conditions. :-) ... S: Succinct and to the point. This is why adhi sila, the sila perfected by the sotapanna, can only be developed with right understanding and why only then will there be no more inclination to kill or steal ever again. Keep talking to Mike! You can both ignore the rest of us and just keep encouraging each other here for all our benefit:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #97095 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 1976 (1) sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Wed, 25/3/09, Alex wrote: >4 Jhanas are part of Noble 8 Fold path. Noble 8 fold path is the path to awakening. You can't pick and choose. ... S: Are you referring to the Noble 8 fold path as the factors arising with the lokuttara cittas at each of the stages of enlightenment? If so, are you therefore saying that all 4 kinds/levels of jhana cittas arise with each of these lokuttara cittas? Give me your precise Abhidhamma take, Alex! ... >>S: Are you asking about the lokuttara magga citta or what? A:>You are going off the tangent, trying to obfuscate the issue with technical legerdemain. ... S: I'm trying to understand what you're talking about. ... >>S:Are you suggesting that all lay disciples, such as Visakha who >became enlightened at the age of seven and went on to have a very >large family, had attained all mundane jhanas? A:> If Visakha went from worldling to Arahant, then yes. Jhanas were achieved. ... S: But she didn't and nor did anyone else. It's impossible to for the arahat lokuttara cittas to arise without the previous lokuttara cittas arising first, even if they follow each other in quick succession. In Visakha's case, she remained a sotapanna in that life as I recall. So how many jhana cittas arose with her (or anyone else's) lokuttara cittas? Let's be precise here. ... >Didn't young Siddhartha achieve at least one Jhana under the tree during the ceremony? ... S: So what? We're discussing whether '4 Jhanas are part of Noble 8 Fold path'. When Siddhartha experienced mundane jhana cittas at this time, he wasn't enlightened, there was no eight-fold path. It's not relevant. A little obfuscating of the issue by you:-). Metta Sarah ======== #97096 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 6:44 am Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila scottduncan2 Dear Robert A., Regarding: RA: "I looked up 'vata' and found a definition of 'religious duty or observation' which I believe fits for the quote above - 'abstinence as religious duty or observation'. I took 'mundane insight' to be wisdom of a type which is common to many people, even those who are not familiar with the Buddha's teachings." Scott: Not according to the text, regarding 'mundane insight'. The Paa.li for the phrase in question is: ...Sikkhaati tisso sikkhaa adhisiilasikkhaa ('Higher Virtue'), adhicittasikkhaa ('Higher Cognizance'), adhipa~n~naasikkhaati ('Higher Understanding'). Imasmi.m panatthe sampattaviratisiila.m ('virtue consisting in abstinence as custom') lokikaa vipassanaa ('mundane insight') ruupaaruupajhaanaani ('form and formless jhaana') ariyamaggo ('the Noble Path') ca sikkhaati adhippetaa... 'Mundane insight' is 'lokikaa vipassanaa'. This clearly refers to that which only a Buddha can teach and is not to be equated to the ideas of the world, as I see it. This refers to pa~n~naa that is not at the level of the Path. Pa~n~naa is the cetasika the function of which is understanding. There is not 'someone who understands'. RA: "The taking of precepts is a ritual. I find ritual to be useful, so I guess we will leave this one as a disagreement and one I feel confident we will never bridge." Scott: As Nina is always fond of discussing 'everyday life', and as this is valuable, can you say in what way 'ritual' is useful to you in everyday life? Perhaps we can unpack this for what it is. I think that it is not unless the dhammaa of which a ritual act consists - or which condition the thoughts and sequential movements of 'the body' - are kusala it is of no use and the nature of the underlying dhammaa is not known simply by thinking and acting in a way consistent with how one thinks one should act. RA: "I would only point out that Nanamoli Bhikku, the author of your original quote, was, I believe, a student of that 'dictionary writer'." Scott: No matter, I don't mind who was a teacher of whom. Both can be wrong and, although giving material worth considering, are not infallible. RA: "I agree with you that it is 'conventional speech', but I believe there is a lot of useful such speech in the Suttas and think we should pay attention to it." Scott: No, I disagree here. Perhaps you misunderstand me to downplay the suttas - this would be a common misunderstanding. I'm saying that the conventional language used in the suttas is most prone to being misunderstood. One ought to take care that one isn't carried away by one's own thoughts about meanings. Sincerely, Scott. #97097 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: RFC - Khnadhavibhango, Abhidhammabhaajaniiya.m sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Sat, 4/4/09, szmicio wrote: >> S: Only one can be the object of clinging (upaadaana khandha) at a time. >L: So If only one khandha is upaadaana khandha, that one which is an object of clinging, what's with the rest of khandhas? ... S: Only one object is experienced at a time. So, for example, if visible object is the object of clinging now, then it is upaadaana khandha, the khandha that is clung to. The attachment, as we know is the cause of dukkha. ... >They are not upaadaana khandhas at that moment? ... S: No. For example, if visible object is the object of clinging, feeling is not. ... >But lobha condition citta and all cetasikas by way of hetupaccaya. Only ruupa isnt condition by hetus. ... S: Yes. The clinging to visible object (in the example above), is by way of hetupaccaya (as well as many other conditions, such as object condition, decisive support condition etc etc). The citta and cetasikas at that moment are conditioned as you say, but still only experience one object, one upaadaana khandha. ... >So if there is lobha-mula-citta then all cetasikas should be upaadaana khandha. There is no other way. ... S: The upaadaana khandha refers to the object of clinging. For example, the rupas of the arahat are upaadaana khandha for those that cling to them even though the arahat has no more lobha. To repeat what I posted before: >All khandhas arise and fall away, but are not necessarily the object of upadana (clinging). Only the dhamma which is the object of upadana (clinging) is upadana khandha at that moment, because it arises and falls away. It can't be upadana khandha when it is not clung to, eg eye-base whilst sleeping is not the object of clinging. With regard to the definition of dukkha, given as "sankhittena pa~ncupaadaanakhandhaa dukkhaa" (the five factors of attachment are suffering), this therefore refers, as I understand it, to the dhamma which is the object of clinging now. So when it is the moment of realization and the full penetration of the rising and falling away of dhammas, the object must be one which is usually the object of upadana (clinging). ..... Vism X1V, 214 (~Naa.namoli translation): "As to distinction: as to distinction between aggregates and aggregates-as-objects-of-clinging. But what is the distinction between them? Firstly, aggregates is said without distinguishing. Aggregates [as objects] of clinging is said distinguishing those that are subject to cankers and are liable to clingings, according as it is said: 'Bhikkhus, I shall teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging. Listen.....Any kind of materiality whatever....is called the materiality aggregate.......feeling...perception....formations...consciousness....consciousn\ ess aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates. "And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging? Any kind of materiality whatever.............consciousness whatever....far or near, that is subject to cankers and liable to clingings: this is called the consciousness aggregate [as object] of clinging. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging' (S iii,47)" *** S: Please keep asking if it's not clear of if you disagree. You help me to consider further as well. Great questions as usual! Metta, Sarah ======== #97098 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 7:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila scottduncan2 Dear Jon and Sarah, Regarding: J: "Regarding abstinence as 'custom', I would say this is a reference to kusala that is not of the level of awareness. I believe 'custom' can sometimes refer to maintaining one's family's name or practices (charitable and the like). So it could be the equivalent of restraint motivated by not wanting to give the family a bad name." Sarah: "Vism 1:42 'Each clan's or locality's or sect's own rules of conduct are customary virtue.'" Scott: Is the above the meaning of the phrase 'sampattaviratisiila.m' ('virtue consisting in abstinence as custom')? J: "And I suppose 'ideas' here is 'dhammas' again." Scott: Yes, 'Katame dhammaa sikkhaa?' Sincerely, Scott. #97099 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 7:14 am Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila abhidhammika Dear Robert A, Nina, Mike N, Robert E, Howard, Phil, James, Robert K How are you? Robert A wrote: "The taking of precepts is a ritual. I find ritual to be useful, so I guess we will leave this one as a disagreement and one I feel confident we will never bridge." Suan commented: Not necessarily a ritual, Robert. In the context of the Buddha's Theravada teachings, the taking of precepts is the act of applying a mental associate (cetasika) called adhimokkho (deciding) to a real life situation. A cetasika is one of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma). "Na hi anadhimuccanto paa.naatipaataadiisu daanaadiisu vaa pavattati" "One unable to decide is not up to executing the wrong actions like killing or the right actions like generous giving." The above statement is from Yevaapanakava.n.nanaa, in Muula.tiikaa, the subcommentary on A.t.thasaalinii (the commentary on Dhammasanganii). Anyone who regards the taking of precepts as a ritual does not know or understand the deep teachings of Theravada Abhidhamma Pi.taka. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #97100 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Scott wrote: >>J: "Regarding abstinence as 'custom', I would say this is a reference to kusala that is not of the level of awareness. I believe 'custom' can sometimes refer to maintaining one's family's name or practices (charitable and the like). So it could be the equivalent of restraint motivated by not wanting to give the family a bad name." >>Sarah: "Vism 1:42 'Each clan's or locality's or sect's own rules of conduct are customary virtue.'" ... Sarah: Sorry, that should be Vism 1:41 ... >Scott: Is the above the meaning of the phrase 'sampattaviratisiil a.m' ('virtue consisting in abstinence as custom')? ... S: No, the above 'customary virtue' is aacaarasiila, I believe. It's not virati (abstention). It's just behaviour. Siila isn't necessarily kusala either here.... Like when children are taught rules of behaviour which they follow as custom. ... Metta, Sarah ====== #97101 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 7:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Scott: Is the above the meaning of the phrase 'sampattaviratisiil a.m' ('virtue consisting in abstinence as custom')? > ... S: "No, the above 'customary virtue' is aacaarasiila, I believe. It's not virati (abstention). It's just behaviour. Siila isn't necessarily kusala either here.... Like when children are taught rules of behaviour which they follow as custom." Scott: Thank you. How does aacaarasiila differ from sampattaviratisiila, since this latter is the phrase in the text from which the translation 'virtue consisting in abstinence as custom'? As to 'rules of behaviour' taught to and performed by children, I suppose this can be condition of mundane insight. I have a hard time not equating this with 'religion' in general, and then wanting to throw out the baby with the bathwater myself. Sincerely, Scott. #97102 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 7:35 am Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila avalo1968 Hello Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > Suan commented: > > Not necessarily a ritual, Robert. In the context of > the Buddha's Theravada teachings, the taking of precepts is > the act of applying a mental associate (cetasika) called > adhimokkho (deciding) to a real life situation. A cetasika is > one of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma). > > "Na hi anadhimuccanto paa.naatipaataadiisu daanaadiisu vaa pavattati" > > "One unable to decide is not up to executing the wrong actions > like killing or the right actions like generous giving." > > The above statement is from Yevaapanakava.n.nanaa, in Muula.tiikaa, > the subcommentary on A.t.thasaalinii (the commentary on Dhammasanganii). > I see a definition of 'adhimokkho' as determination, decision, or resolve. You spoke of the "act of applying a mental associate (cetasika) called adhimokkho to a real life situation". This sounds suspiciously like 'deciding' or 'resolving' to do something. Is this what you are saying, or am I getting it wrong? Suan: > Anyone who regards the taking of precepts as a ritual does not > know or understand the deep teachings of Theravada Abhidhamma Pi.taka. > That's me, I'm afraid. Regards, Robert A. #97103 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Regarding: S: "...In the context of the Buddha's Theravada teachings, the taking of precepts is the act of applying a mental associate (cetasika) called adhimokkho (deciding) to a real life situation. A cetasika is one of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhamma)." Scott: The phrase 'act of applying a mental associate...to a real life situation' might be misconstrued. Do you refer here to the impersonal and conditioned unfolding of paramattha dhammaa, or do you imply that one can 'apply' a mental associate considered to be not subject to control or 'application' as if this were some sort of practise? Sincerely, Scott. #97104 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 7:43 am Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila scottduncan2 Dear Robert A. (and Suan), Regarding: R: "I see a definition of 'adhimokkho' as determination, decision, or resolve. You spoke of the 'act of applying a mental associate (cetasika) called adhimokkho to a real life situation'. This sounds suspiciously like 'deciding' or 'resolving' to do something. Is this what you are saying, or am I getting it wrong?" Scott: My question exactly (being sent as you sent your own). Great minds think alike. Sincerely, Scott. #97105 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 8:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Scott wrote: >Scott: Thank you. How does aacaarasiila differ from sampattaviratisiila , since this latter is the phrase in the text from which the translation 'virtue consisting in abstinence as custom'? .... Sarah: [Actually, I'd forgotten I'd just given the term sampattaviratisiila also from CMA as 'natural abstinence' - abstaining or following the precepts, for example, due to social norms. This is the first of the 3 kinds of virati - virati according to customs]. So, I'm probably just confusing things. Here, for the customary virtue or aacaarasiila, I don't believe that it's virati, abstention that is being referred to. From the Pali dict: "aacaara [aa + car] way of behaving, conduct, practice, esp. right conduct, good manners; adj. (-- aacaara) practising, indulging in, or of such & such a conduct. -- Sn 280 (paapa aacaara); J i.106 (vipassana aacaara); ii.280 (aacaara ariya);" ... >Scott: As to 'rules of behaviour' taught to and performed by children, I suppose this can be condition of mundane insight. I have a hard time not equating this with 'religion' in general, and then wanting to throw out the baby with the bathwater myself. ... Sarah: I don't think it has anything to do with insight as condition or otherwise. No understanding involved at all, such as when children in Buddhist countries repeat the precepts by rote. It's not 'undertaking', samadaya. Anyway, I'll leave you to sort out all the muddles I've contributed to, as I go to bed! Thanks, Scott. Metta, Sarah ======= #97106 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 8:15 am Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila avalo1968 Hello Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Scott: My question exactly (being sent as you sent your own). Great minds think alike. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > The generosity of the sentiment is greatly appreciated (even if the validity of it, in my case, is questionable). Regards, Robert A. #97107 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 8:33 am Subject: Re: Precepts and Siila avalo1968 Hello Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Robert A., > > Regarding: > > RA: "I looked up 'vata' and found a definition of 'religious duty or observation' which I believe fits for the quote above - 'abstinence as religious duty or observation'. I took 'mundane insight' to be wisdom of a type which is common to many people, even those who are not familiar with the Buddha's teachings." > > Scott: Not according to the text, regarding 'mundane insight'. The Paa.li for the phrase in question is: > > ...Sikkhaati tisso sikkhaa adhisiilasikkhaa ('Higher Virtue'), adhicittasikkhaa ('Higher Cognizance'), adhipa~n~naasikkhaati ('Higher Understanding'). Imasmi.m panatthe sampattaviratisiila.m ('virtue consisting in abstinence as custom') lokikaa vipassanaa ('mundane insight') ruupaaruupajhaanaani ('form and formless jhaana') ariyamaggo ('the Noble Path') ca sikkhaati adhippetaa... > > 'Mundane insight' is 'lokikaa vipassanaa'. This clearly refers to that which only a Buddha can teach and is not to be equated to the ideas of the world, as I see it. This refers to pa~n~naa that is not at the level of the Path. Pa~n~naa is the cetasika the function of which is understanding. There is not 'someone who understands'. > RA: Thanks for the clarification. > RA: "The taking of precepts is a ritual. I find ritual to be useful, so I guess we will leave this one as a disagreement and one I feel confident we will never bridge." > > Scott: As Nina is always fond of discussing 'everyday life', and as this is valuable, can you say in what way 'ritual' is useful to you in everyday life? Perhaps we can unpack this for what it is. I think that it is not unless the dhammaa of which a ritual act consists - or which condition the thoughts and sequential movements of 'the body' - are kusala it is of no use and the nature of the underlying dhammaa is not known simply by thinking and acting in a way consistent with how one thinks one should act. > RA: Your question is a difficult one to answer. Ritual is something that enters an area which is hard to define and describe intellectually. This raises a larger question: is anything you cannot describe in logical or intellectual terms, by definition, useless? > RA: "I would only point out that Nanamoli Bhikku, the author of your original quote, was, I believe, a student of that 'dictionary writer'." > > Scott: No matter, I don't mind who was a teacher of whom. Both can be wrong and, although giving material worth considering, are not infallible. > RA: Are there any writings you would consider to be infallible? > RA: "I agree with you that it is 'conventional speech', but I believe there is a lot of useful such speech in the Suttas and think we should pay attention to it." > > Scott: No, I disagree here. Perhaps you misunderstand me to downplay the suttas - this would be a common misunderstanding. I'm saying that the conventional language used in the suttas is most prone to being misunderstood. One ought to take care that one isn't carried away by one's own thoughts about meanings. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > I would agree completely - putting one's preferred spin on the suttas is very easy to do and it is extremely valuable to take care one does not do this whenever reading the suttas. It is only then that the greatest value can be derived from the experience. Regards, Robert A. #97108 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 4:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and pt) - In a message dated 4/4/2009 8:50:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear pt, Regarding: pt: "When you say that a dhamma has characteristics, I have no problem with that. But is that reason enough to call dhammas substantial?" Scott: I find it a bit problematic to continue, since the view you are arguing is essentially mahayana and, while I don't mind what you believe, I don't feel a need to convince you and I simply don't find these ideas to be of interest to me - i.e. to be correct. 'Substantial' is your term. How do you define it? As Jon wrote to Robert E., this view comes from some idea that to consider a dhamma to have characteristic is to somehow 'reify' it or, as you suggest, make of it 'a little self'. Where have you read this in the texts? Naama (citta and cetasika), ruupa, and Nibbaana are paramattha dhammaa. They are realities. This means they 'exist' and this is no problem either. The first two (three) are immaterial; ruupa is material. Both (or all three) have characteristics. Nibbaana is the unconditioned dhamma, with characteristics as well. If creative philosophers want to come up with new and esoteric theories about substantiality versus insubstantiality so be it, but I don't get turned on by these. They are beyond the mark. =============================== Scott, not every perspective on the Buddhadhamma that differs from Khun Sujin's interpretation has to be Mahayana. I'm not looking for debate or disputation on this but am merely pointing out that there are teachings in the Pali canon that might well serve as basis for what Mahayanists call "emptiness." As regards what is and what is not Mahayana, and as regards "substantiality" & what is "real," one might consider the following words of the Buddha recorded in four Pali suttas: (From the Uraga Sutta) He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. and The monk who hasn't slipped past or turned back, knowing with regard to the world that "All this is unreal," sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin. ------------------------------ (From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta) See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. Nibbana, not false in nature, that the Noble Ones know as true. Indeed, by the penetration of the true, they are completely stilled and realize final deliverance. ---------------------------- (From the Phena Sutta) Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately. ---------------------------- (From the Kaccayangotta Sutta) By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. With metta, Howard /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #97109 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 9:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness avalo1968 Hello Howard and Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Scott, not every perspective on the Buddhadhamma that differs from Khun > Sujin's interpretation has to be Mahayana. I'm not looking for debate or > disputation on this but am merely pointing out that there are teachings in the > Pali canon that might well serve as basis for what Mahayanists call > "emptiness." > Anyone interested in this might want to take a look at Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book "Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree - The Buddha's Teaching on Voidness" Regards, Robert A. #97110 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 9:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Scott, not every perspective on the Buddhadhamma that differs from Khun Sujin's interpretation has to be Mahayana. I'm not looking for debate or disputation on this but am merely pointing out that there are teachings in the Pali canon that might well serve as basis for what Mahayanists call 'emptiness.' As regards what is and what is not Mahayana, and as regards 'substantiality' & what is 'real,' one might consider the following words of the Buddha recorded in four Pali suttas..." Scott: This is old school now, Howard. And no one is mentioning Khun Sujin here, except you. I've gone over these points and these suttas to my satisfaction. I have no interest in the mahayana or the quasi-mahayana or the almost-mahayana slant on these suttas. I'm fine with 'emptiness' as being synonymous with 'empty of self' (anatta) and nothing more and have no need to pursue what I consider to be any sort of mystical post-canonical/post-commentarial view on the matter. But you must already know that. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #97111 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 9:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear Robert A., Regarding: R: "Anyone interested in this might want to take a look at Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book 'Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree - The Buddha's Teaching on Voidness'" Scott: Do you have a quote in mind? Why don't you present one and we can dissect it and see what it's worth. Sincerely, Scott. #97112 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 5:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 4/4/2009 12:23:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Scott, not every perspective on the Buddhadhamma that differs from Khun Sujin's interpretation has to be Mahayana. I'm not looking for debate or disputation on this but am merely pointing out that there are teachings in the Pali canon that might well serve as basis for what Mahayanists call 'emptiness.' As regards what is and what is not Mahayana, and as regards 'substantiality' & what is 'real,' one might consider the following words of the Buddha recorded in four Pali suttas..." Scott: This is old school now, Howard. And no one is mentioning Khun Sujin here, except you. ---------------------------------------------- Scott, I had originally written "your" instead of "Khun Sujin's." But I changed it, because I was hoping to avoid seeming to attack, where no attack was intended. I wanted to be polite to you, Scott, and to avoid confrontation. (It just didn't read nicely with "your" in there.) ---------------------------------------------- I've gone over these points and these suttas to my satisfaction. I have no interest in the mahayana or the quasi-mahayana or the almost-mahayana slant on these suttas. ---------------------------------------------- I have little interest in Mahayana either, especially not the Mahayana sutras (with a few exceptions). My interest lies with the Dhamma the Buddha presented and which I think is best reflected in the Pali Sutta Pitaka. ---------------------------------------------- I'm fine with 'emptiness' as being synonymous with 'empty of self' (anatta) and nothing more and have no need to pursue what I consider to be any sort of mystical post-canonical/post-commentarial view on the matter. But you must already know that. ;-) ---------------------------------------------- I don't much care about the term 'emptiness'. I do care a lot about the content of such suttas I posted, though. --------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. =========================== With metta, Howard /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #97113 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 9:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness avalo1968 Hello Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Robert A., > > Regarding: > > R: "Anyone interested in this might want to take a look at Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book 'Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree - The Buddha's Teaching on Voidness'" > > Scott: Do you have a quote in mind? Why don't you present one and we can dissect it and see what it's worth. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Thanks, but I would prefer to not go down that road and will let Buddhadasa Bhikkhu speak for himself. Regards, Robert A. #97114 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 10:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear Robert A, Regarding: R: "Thanks, but I would prefer to not go down that road and will let Buddhadasa Bhikkhu speak for himself." Scott: Bhikkhu Buddhadasa: "...For the average person, it is extremely difficult to prevent phassa from developing into vedana. As soon as there is sense-contact, the feelings of satisfaction or dissatisfaction always follow on immediately. It doesn't stop at phassa because there has never been any training in Dhamma. But there is still a way to save oneself; namely, when vedana has already developed, when there are already feelings of satisfaction and dissatisfaction, to stop it right there. Let feeling remain as merely feeling and pass away. Don't allow it to go on and become tanha, wanting this and that in response to the satisfaction or dissatisfaction..." Scott: This completely misunderstands anatta. I've no need to read further. Who needs pop-psychology - warmed-over cognitive behavioural therapy - paraded as Dhamma? Sincerely, Scott. #97115 From: mlnease Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 10:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila m_nease Hi Jon, jonoabb wrote: > > Hi Mike > >> --------------------------------------- >> Yes, your probably right. Thanks for your time. >> --------------------------------------- > > A rather reluctant-sounding agreement! I'm wondering if you see the > taking of the precepts as being something more than resolving to > restrain if a situation arises. No-- > Do you perhaps see it as a kind of > determination that has effect on an ongoing basis? Please share more of > your thoughts on this. I suppose the recurring recollection of such a resolution can have a seemingly ongoing effect. But no, I think you (and Ken O) are correct in saying that the abstinence itself only occurs instantaneously and with the opportunity to abstain as an essential condition (if I'm paraphrasing you correctly). My interest was more in whether or not you saw those quoted translations as examples of the Buddha encouraging laypeople to resolve to undertake the eight precepts for duration of the Uposatha (as the texts seem to suggest to me) or if you thought I'd misread the texts or that they'd been mistranslated. As to the difference between such a resolution and the actual abstinences I think we agree. Thanks again for your time. mike #97116 From: mlnease Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 10:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila m_nease Hi Sarah (and All) sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Scott, Jon, Robert A, Mike, Ken O & all, > > --- On Sat, 4/4/09, jonoabb > wrote: > Vism 1:42 > "Each clan's or locality's or sect's own rules of conduct are customary > virtue." > > Lots more, of course, in this chapter of Vism. Interesting quote--does anyone know the Paa.li for 'customary virtue'? mike #97117 From: mlnease Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 10:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Precepts and Siila m_nease Hi Sarah and Ken O, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Ken O, > > --- On Sat, 4/4/09, Ken O > wrote: >>In my own views, restraint of akusala acts would only be possible when > kusala arise. Even if one personally resolve to restraint, then we have > to ask ourselves whether such resolve is an attachment to lobha (self). > ... > S: I think this is such a good point to consider. Like when one resolves > to have more metta or be a nice person....what are the motives? > ... > >>It is through the understanding of dhamma, then could one practise the > restraint and not the other way around. If one do not understand dhamma, > could one knows why one should not kill or not to steal. First > understanding, then it conditions restraint. All in the works of > conditions. :-) > ... > S: Succinct and to the point. This is why adhi sila, the sila perfected > by the sotapanna, can only be developed with right understanding and why > only then will there be no more inclination to kill or steal ever again. Of course I agree with you both that understanding is preeminent. I don't think it's clear, though, that IF the Buddha encouraged people to observe the precepts, he insisted that they perfect understanding before doing so. Corrections are welcome. mike #97118 From: "colette" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 11:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness ksheri3 oh, now I see, the first post was nothing more than setting up the joke. The real joke is what you just posted to me. Ah, a little humourous but typical of NON-COMITTMENT. I have more to say but we gotta keep these thoughts seperate. colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, westbankj@... wrote: > > > Hi Colette, > > In my last post I wrote: > > Dear Colette, > > Right now, it's probably better if we just limit the discussion to > addressing > the specific points that I brought up about the nature of dharmas and how > they appear. > > And by the way, you were right in your first post. It is straight out of a > text: > > > > I should have been a little more specific and said that in your last post > you were right that the ideas came "straight out of text", but not about me > being like a professor that just teaches something because he is required to. > The ideas match my thought beliefs. > > Cheers, > > Kevin #97119 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 7:28 pm Subject: Re: Emptiness avalo1968 Hello Scott, In the course of a couple of days I have seen Nyanatiloka Thera derided as a 'dictionary writer' and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu dismissed as a purveyor of pop psychology. That is about all of that I can take for awhile, so I will say thanks for the discussion and adios. Robert A. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Robert A, > Regarding: > > R: "Thanks, but I would prefer to not go down that road and will let Buddhadasa Bhikkhu speak for himself." > > Scott: Bhikkhu Buddhadasa: > > "...For the average person, it is extremely difficult to prevent phassa from developing into vedana. As soon as there is sense-contact, the feelings of satisfaction or dissatisfaction always follow on immediately. It doesn't stop at phassa because there has never been any training in Dhamma. But there is still a way to save oneself; namely, when vedana has already developed, when there are already feelings of satisfaction and dissatisfaction, to stop it right there. Let feeling remain as merely feeling and pass away. Don't allow it to go on and become tanha, wanting this and that in response to the satisfaction or dissatisfaction..." > > Scott: This completely misunderstands anatta. I've no need to read further. > > Who needs pop-psychology - warmed-over cognitive behavioural therapy - paraded as Dhamma? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #97120 From: slnanda Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 9:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ANAPANASATI: no 3. silananda_t Hi Ken, Dhamma greetings, dear friend. > I think I know something about the jhana ... I am sorry but you don't. And there are other views which are just speculations as well ... like > ... Not everyone will be accepted. (I suspect only very exceptional applicants would be.) > ... "only one in a hundred or one in a thousand" will go on to attain the first jhana. (You could be THE ONE, Ken !) And so on it goes until we can calculate that a jhana master is a very, very rare 'one in a trillion or so' type of individual. Present practice supported by karma is important. Make aspirations (adhitthana) on knowing the handful of leaves whenever appropriate. May we come into contact with this handful, and through practise know them directly. May we be able to differentiate the tainted from the true, and the essential from the unessential, although true. Try seek out Maha Boowa , Ajahn Brahm or Pa Auk Sayadawwho are still living, or their disciples. Or books by Ajahn Chah, Buddhadasa Bhikkhu or Ajahn Lee. Please note there are others which i can't possibly complete. But still the best references are the Suttas & Vinaya. However ultimately it is the heart that knows. mahakaruna, ~silananda On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 4:32 PM, kenhowardau wrote: <...> > Hi Silananda, > > Thanks for continuing the discussion; this is an important point. But do > we share the same understanding of the word "jhana?" > > I think I know something about the jhana that is said to be attained at > 10 day retreats. I have had some experience of that sort of thing in the > past. But now that I have seen jhana described in the Pali texts - in > the Visuddhimagga, for example - I have a very different understanding. <...> #97121 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 10:02 pm Subject: Whenever and Wherever! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Some Sequential and Consequential Facts! Whenever and wherever there is Ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths; There is also Greed, Voracity, Lust, Desire, Craving and Longing! Whenever and wherever there is Greed, Lust, Desire, and Craving ; There is also the Hate of Envy & of Jealousy, and Fear of Loosing! Whenever and wherever there is Hate, Envy, Jealousy and Anger ; There is also Conflict, Clash, Opposition, Hostility & raging Violence! Whenever and wherever there is Conflict, Hostility and Violence; There is neither Peace, nor Harmony, nor any Relaxed Contentment ! Whenever and wherever there is neither Peace, nor any Harmony ; There is neither Gladness, nor Joy, nor Bliss, nor any Happiness! Whenever and wherever there is neither Gladness, nor Happiness; There is Suffering , Frustration, Misery, Distress and Discomfort! Whenever and wherever there is Suffering, Frustration, & Misery; There is no Concentration, nor any Mental Absorption of Mind! Whenever and wherever there is no Well Focused Concentration; There is no penetration into the real & true Nature of Phenomena ! Whenever and wherever there is no penetration into the Realities; There is Ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths, Confusion and Doubt ... Friends, I tell you: It is in this way, that Ignorance grows Ignorance ! ... Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Whenever and Wherever! #97122 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 10:51 pm Subject: Re: Emptiness ptaus1 Hi Scott, thanks for your detailed reply. I was a bit shocked when you said my views are mahayana :)) considering that I never studied mahayana and have only been reading theravada literature for the past few years. Anyway, I'll consider your reply for a bit and hopefully come up with a meaningful reply soon. Again, thanks for poking holes in my views and understandings, that's the reason I'm here and it seems the best way to learn. Best wishes #97123 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Apr 4, 2009 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stages of insight ptaus1 Hi Sarah, thanks for the recommendations, I'll get to them as soon as I’m done with the Useful posts section on stages of insight (thanks for that too). Best wishes --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: For a short summary, I recommend CMA (the translation of Abhidhammattha Sangaha, edited by B.Bodhi with extensive notes). > > For a detailed summary, I recommend "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, which can be found on line at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/1746908-alanweller?page=1 > > For great detail, I'd turn to the Visuddhimagga where the subject is dealt with in several chapters. "'-_ “’-_ #97124 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 12:14 am Subject: Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > > Jon: Anicca, dukkha and anatta are known as the 3 characteristics, i.e., characteristics *of dhammas*. > > > > Yes, but that doesn't settle the issue at all. As Bill Clinton might have liked to say, 'what does *of* mean?' ... If I say, "Oh I just noticed that my wife has left the room," "Left the room" is not a characteristic of my wife, it is something I have understood about where she is or is not. It has nothing to do with *her characteristics,* but of something *about* her movement in space or time. > > --------------------------------------- > > I hear what you are saying. You're saying that while the terms anicca, dukkha and anattaa are *descriptive* of dhammas, they are not to be regarded as *inherent characteristics* of dhammas. > > I'm wondering if this is an idea you've come to after a study of the suttas, or whether it's a view you've read about somewhere and find appealing. Well.....it is something that I am saying about the three marks that I think is kind of obvious, and yes, is based on my understanding probably from sutta. It's a view. You mention that you don't know where I got it from, but you don't either refute or discuss it other than to wonder if it's my own idea or not. :-) > I don't suppose it matters. Then why'd ya bring it up? :-))) >I'd say again that the suttas speak at length about dhammas, and the need for dhammas to be understood, so regardless of how these "characteristics" fit into the general picture of dhammas, the point of greatest importance is an understanding of how there could possibly be the development of insight at this moment as (for me) I'm writing this post or (for you) you're reading it. I don't get the above statement as I am not sure what it is saying. I'm talking about the way in which the three marks and dhammas and cittas and cetasikas are being discussed. To me that does have bearing on the possibility of insight, because it has to do with just what you are saying - the nature of dhammas; and what I am saying - the nature of how they are perceived. So you choose not to address what I brought up, and then say [my summary:] a. suttas speak about dhammas b. there is a need for dhammas to be understood c. how the "characteristics" fit into the understanding of dhammas is unimportant. d. what is important is to understand how insight can be developed. can you please tell me how those four points hang together, and what you would like me to take away from that? It's not important how we talk about dhammas? It's not important how the characteristics fit in? Or what? > > --------------------------------------- > Likewise, anicca is not substantial. If you take the concept of insubstantiality and impermanence, it is quite perverse to then make that substantial in its own right and reify it into a thing in its own right. > > --------------------------------------- > > Here's that bogeyman of "reification" again ;-)). It's a purely manufactured evil. There's no such wrong view in the texts! Again, you criticize my "silly word," reification, but have nothing to say about my point - that anicca, which is the characteristic of "not having or being a self" should not be made into a 'something' when it's point is that the idea of a self or entity is 'nothing.' It doesn't matter whether the suttas mention the word "reification" or not. That really is a bogeyman! Well it can be a big problem to develop a concept about something that is absent, and then turn the absence into a positive characteristic that can supposedly itself be observed. It is not, and it cannot. If a glass is "empty" the "emptiness" is not a thing, it's an observation about something that's not there. You can't observe something that's not there. So what you are really doing is comparing the current state of the object with a concept. There's no such thing as "anatta" unless you start out in samsara thinking that people and things have self-hood or entity. Anatta is the antidote for that; it's not a thing in its own right. It's a negative insight. > > --------------------------------------- > > Anatta is not a "characteristic" in the sense of "belonging" to the object, or you are increasing its entity, ...... If "hardness" is x and only x, then for that brief moment it is a substantial definable entity in its own right, with boundaries, characteristics and own-being. This seems to me to be against the grain of the Buddha's teaching of the nature of reality. > > --------------------------------------- > > I'm glad to see you referring to the teachings on the "nature of reality". I'd like to hear your own views on what that is. That the nature of reality is that it is unsatisfying, impermanent and lacking any positive entity or selfhood. [Dukkha, Anicca, Anatta.] When you make a characteristic or quality into a definite and real object, you are fighting anatta. My sense of the three marks is that they are all-pervasive. In other words, anatta means that everything is empty of selfhood. If you make something a definite entity, you are fighting with anatta. Anicca means that everything is constantly changing and deteriorating, reforming and changing. If this is taken literally, there is no moment when something has a definite characteristic. It is never frozen in time. I think there is a tension between the idea of a paramatha dhamma that is definite and real, and the full sense of anicca being present through to the last drop of microscopic reality. I would be interested to see that tension explored. Dukkha means that there is nothing to hold onto, that all attempts to cling are met with frustration and disappointment. That would go for holding onto the idea of paramatha dhammas as well. That's my view of the Buddha's teaching on the nature of reality, at least part of it, and at least so far. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #97125 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 12:23 am Subject: Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > ------------------------------------ > The image of a "dhamma" that I have from the Abhidhamma perspective so far is of a "perceived quality" through one of the sense-doors, such as hardness etc. ... The concept breaks down experience as one would the features of a specimen under a microscope, which leads to a very serious analysis, but may not reflect the living reality of how the things occur in situ, live. > > > > Unless we are arahants, we probably can't verify this for ourselves at present, so it is either a matter of faith, logic, experience, understanding, or common sense by which we determine it. > > ------------------------------------ > > You are talking about what you call the "Abhidhamma perspective", I think? I don't see the need to "determine" anything at this stage. Verification (or otherwise) will come when understanding is further developed. In the meantime it's simply a matter of not rejecting the explanation/description given in the texts. Which texts? Are they all in agreement? Is there only one interpretation of what they mean? How do you know which is the right one? Isn't it a question of what texts one trusts, since there are terms introduced in Abhidhamma that are not in Sutta, and terms in com that are not in Abhidhamma. How far do you go from the Buddha's own words before you need something other than acceptance on faith? > > ------------------------------------ > > If we grant that a single dhamma/experient arises for one citta which grasps it, experiences and then falls away along with its dhamma, it still does not settle the issue of whether the citta is doing the experiencing all by itself or whether its "fellow traveller" cetasikas are merely modifying the experience for the citta, or doing their own separate version of experiencing the dhamma either at the same time or just before or after, however it is deemed to take place. > > ------------------------------------ > > I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of this kind of thinking to the development of awareness or understanding of presently arising dhammas. It's not necessary to have settled on a comprehensive blueprint of the way everything is before seeing the importance of the possibility of a level of awareness at this moment as we exchange messages. Well then what is the level of awareness that you would propose? And what if the model is wrong? That is okay? > > ------------------------------------ > > If the cetasika is meant to give the citta a certain aspect of the experience -- for instance, panna would give it a clear correct understanding of what it is experiencing -- then the question would arise how does the "panna" or other cetasika transmit its perception of the dhamma to the citta? It makes a very complicated model even more complicated. And why is it necessary to even postulate this? Why can't the cetasika be like a filter on a camera that "colors" the experience for the lens [citta] rather than being yet another camera itself which will then have to download its experience to the citta in the brief period of time that they exist. > > ------------------------------------ > > I can assure you I'm not personally arguing for one outcome over another, as I don't see that it matters. (I do however like to identify the orthodox textual view.) The orthodox textual view from which texts? And why do you like to identify it if it is not important? What is important? What is the awareness that you believe *is* relevant to understanding the true nature of dhammas/reality in the moment? > > ------------------------------------ > > And doesn't this the create two separate versions of the dhamma which then need to be coordinated? How is citta's perception different from panna's or eye-door's or kusala's? How do they coordinate and merge into that one single dhamma that everyone insists on? You start getting multiple versions of the simple dhamma model which then have to be blended up. > > ------------------------------------ > > Hoping to hear soon your own understanding of what "dhammas" as found in the suttas are. I think the message is pretty clear that you are not interested in discussing whether the citta/dhamma theory holds together or not. I didn't realize this was not of interest to you, so perhaps it will be better not to discuss it. My view of what "dhammas" are from the suttas so far is that they are impermanent and lacking in substantial identity or meaning [anatta.] Therefore clinging to objects of any kind within samsara causes suffering; and through insight and true seeing of their nature one can gradually let go of involvement and attachment to the dhammas and develop the awareness to experience nibbana. What do you think of that? Does that agree with your understanding of the Buddha's message? Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = #97126 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 12:45 am Subject: Re: lobha - eko dhammo...avijjaa pahiiyati, vijjaa uppajjatii’’ti? jonoabb Hi Lukas > > To my understanding (but I don't know if this is directly stated in the texts), it has to do with the notion that unless and until the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattaa are fully penetrated, the idea of continued becoming will have appeal. > > L: Are you talking about Avija Sutta or something else? > --------------------- No, I wasn't referring to the Avijja Sutta. In was just discussing the (possible) reason why lobha is not eradicated until moha is also eradicated. > --------------------- > I see Avija Sutta quite diffrent. It's a really good reminder for all of us. > --------------------- Yes, I agree with that. Jon #97127 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 12:48 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi Lukas > L: I think that akusala citta can condition kusala, just it. > When we say that dosa can be an object to right understanding, isnt it better example? > ------------------------- Yes, that's a good example. In that example, dosa conditions panna by way of being its object ("object condition"). Dosa can also condition kusala by one other kind of condition (the name of which escapes me at the moment), as in the other examples we've been discussing. Jon #97128 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 12:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila jonoabb Hi Robert A > Thank you for this explanation. May I ask you to elaborate a little further as to what you mean by "kusala that is not of the level of awareness". > ----------------------- Yes of course. I mean kusala of a level less than satipatthana. This means dana, sila and samatha (including jhana). (On further reflection though, since jhana was mentioned separately in the list, I should have said all kusala of a level less that satipatthana or jhana citta.) And just in case there's any confusion, all kusala is accompanied by the mental factor sati (mindfulness) of the appropriate level, but satipatthana refers to mindfulness accompanied by panna that directly experiences (or considers) the way things really are. Hoping this is clearer. Jon #97129 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 12:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila jonoabb Hi Scott > Sarah: "Vism 1:42 'Each clan's or locality's or sect's own rules of conduct are customary virtue.'" > > Scott: Is the above the meaning of the phrase 'sampattaviratisiila.m' ('virtue consisting in abstinence as custom')? > ----------------------- Yes, possibly. And I suspect it's also a way of referring to kusala of a level less that mundane insight. > ----------------------- > J: "And I suppose 'ideas' here is 'dhammas' again." > > Scott: Yes, 'Katame dhammaa sikkhaa?' > ----------------------- Thanks for checking that. Jon #97130 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 12:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila jonoabb Hi Mike > I suppose the recurring recollection of such a resolution can have a > seemingly ongoing effect. But no, I think you (and Ken O) are correct > in saying that the abstinence itself only occurs instantaneously and > with the opportunity to abstain as an essential condition (if I'm > paraphrasing you correctly). My interest was more in whether or not you > saw those quoted translations as examples of the Buddha encouraging > laypeople to resolve to undertake the eight precepts for duration of the > Uposatha (as the texts seem to suggest to me) or if you thought I'd > misread the texts or that they'd been mistranslated. As to the > difference between such a resolution and the actual abstinences I think > we agree. Thanks again for your time. OK, I now see your focus (which I notice you spelt out more fully in an earlier post). I'm not aware that the Buddha ever spoke on the subject of resolving to undertake the precepts on Uposatha days. As far as I know, he only spoke (with approval) of the *observing* of the precepts on such days. Whether in those days there was a practice of formally "taking" the precepts, as opposed to for example a recitation by way of a reminder of the 8 precepts in question, I really don't know. Sorry I can't be more specific. As a matter of interest, Mike, what's your own view on formally taking the precepts? Jon #97131 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 2:50 am Subject: Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E Thanks for this and your other post sent at around the same time. There is the usual plethora of points to get back to you on ;-)) As a start, though, I'd like to clarify my question regarding dhammas. > ------------------ > > Hoping to hear soon your own understanding of what "dhammas" as found in the suttas are. > ... > My view of what "dhammas" are from the suttas so far is that they are impermanent and lacking in substantial identity or meaning [anatta.] Therefore clinging to objects of any kind within samsara causes suffering; and through insight and true seeing of their nature one can gradually let go of involvement and attachment to the dhammas and develop the awareness to experience nibbana. > > What do you think of that? Does that agree with your understanding of the Buddha's message? > ------------------ My question could really be put this way: What is the definition of a dhamma? Is a computer a dhamma, is pain a dhamma, is a person a dhamma, is the body a dhamma? Why or why not? What, if you like, makes a dhamma a dhamma? As you understand the term as used in the Suttas? Jon #97132 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 6:07 am Subject: Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear Robert A, I know you've signed off. I'm sorry you've gone silent. I think you feel I've insulted you or perhaps your teacher. You asked me to check on the writings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa and let him speak for himself. I checked and gave an opinion. Perhaps you feel he teaches Dhamma. Why not tell me how you see this, or any other extract? I've learned that the teacher, whoever he or she happens to be, is not the one to focus on or identify with, but rather his or her words and whether these are Dhamma. I don't even consider Kh. Sujin to be my teacher, although I listen to her and read her writings. I check what she writes and find that she speaks what is in the texts. Here is the excerpt I culled from the source you referenced. It was where I stopped after skimming, and very near the beginning. I stopped because this is just not tenable, and if this is an example of the rest, it is just wrong, as I see it: "...For the average person, it is extremely difficult to prevent phassa from developing into vedana. As soon as there is sense-contact, the feelings of satisfaction or dissatisfaction always follow on immediately. It doesn't stop at phassa because there has never been any training in Dhamma. But there is still a way to save oneself; namely, when vedana has already developed, when there are already feelings of satisfaction and dissatisfaction, to stop it right there. Let feeling remain as merely feeling and pass away. Don't allow it to go on and become tanha, wanting this and that in response to the satisfaction or dissatisfaction..." Scott: The premise above is totally problematic. The question is, can one control the order of arising of dhammaa? Do you think that it is even possible to 'prevent phassa from developing into vedanaa'? I'd say that as long as the six doors continue to arise and fall away, as long as there are objects coming into these doorways, there will be phassa and vedanaa. Abhidhamma clarifies, for example, that both phassa and vedanaa are cetasikaa which *arise with each and every moment of consciousness* - whether there is 'training in the Dhamma' or not. And tanhaa, another mental factor and a root, has a much more complex place in the scheme of things than the excerpt would suggest. If one only considers the order set out in the Dependent Origination, and does not also look at the broader picture of conditionality, of which D.O. is a subset, then one can't begin to know the function of tanhaa. We could consider these things if you wish. Why would one just follow someone's words without going to the texts? The 'teaching' above is invalid. I'm not trying to knock you or anyone. I'm trying to take a close look at things. Sincerely, Scott. #97133 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 6:17 am Subject: Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear pt, Regarding: pt: "...I was a bit shocked when you said my views are mahayana :)) considering that I never studied mahayana and have only been reading theravada literature for the past few years. Anyway, I'll consider your reply for a bit and hopefully come up with a meaningful reply soon. Again, thanks for poking holes in my views and understandings, that's the reason I'm here and it seems the best way to learn." Scott: I don't mind what one believes. I'm always getting in trouble for expressing my opinions in a straight forward fashion. No one is to pay attention to me. ;-) I've determined that when emptiness or voidness or the dichotomy of substanitality/insubstantialiy are the focus, even from a so-called Theravada perspective, then, nine times out of ten, the subtle influence of mahayana is there. Again, when a dhamma is said not to have a characteristic, when it is said that there are only conditions, then this is beyond the mark. Sincerely, Scott. #97134 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A leisurely 'Dhamma' afternoon tea with Jessica sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, I just lost a reply I wrote to you. So more briefly now on the last point only- --- On Sat, 4/4/09, szmicio wrote: > As you say, it all depends on conditioned sanna and other factors like chanda. >L: Yes, what is the role of chanda here? What is the characteristic of chanda? ... S: Sanna marks or remembers the objects and chanda takes an interest in them. For example, we take an interest and remember certain films or books and the details. We follow different interests all the time and study the Dhamma in different ways as well, as we see here. Chanda accompanies all cittas with lobha or dosa and all wholesome cittas too. Metta, Sarah p.s You asked if I was a teacher. I was for about 30 years, an English teacher (also a psychologist, social worker and lecturer) in UK, Aus and mostly HK. I'm not teaching now, so my voice, throat and respiratory system are slowly recovering! ======== #97135 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 7:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] pariyati sarahprocter... Hi Azita, --- On Thu, 2/4/09, gazita2002 wrote: >A. the concepts never change, but wisdom can grow and grow until 'we' can tell the difference bet. the actual experience of an object and the thinking about it. >'wrong view is a kind of clinging, it arises only with lobha-mula-citta. It can arise with 4 types of l-m-c. moha covers up the true nature of realities and ditthi has wrong view about them.' >you know, Sarah, I've had this little book for a long time and for years it was somewhere in our house and I never looked at or read it until very recently. Accumulations for being interested/involved in other things - samsara is a long, long time eh? ... S: Yes, I was just discussing sanna and chanda with Lukas. We never know from day to day, moment to moment, where the accumulated sanna, chanda and other factors will take us in samsara. As you say, 'long, long time' - a lot of accumulated lobha, dosa and moha... Still, it always comes back to this moment.... Metta, Sarah ====== #97136 From: mlnease Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 8:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila m_nease Hi Jon, jonoabb wrote: > I'm not aware that the Buddha ever spoke on the subject of resolving to > undertake the precepts on Uposatha days. As far as I know, he only spoke > (with approval) of the *observing* of the precepts on such days. > > Whether in those days there was a practice of formally "taking" the > precepts, as opposed to for example a recitation by way of a reminder of > the 8 precepts in question, I really don't know. > > Sorry I can't be more specific. > > As a matter of interest, Mike, what's your own view on formally taking > the precepts? By my reading of the texts, the Buddha seems to have been encouraging laypeople to resolve to undertake the eight precepts for the duration of the Uposatha (whether referred to as "taking" the precepts or otherwise). I don't have a fixed view on the subject; that's why I asked if you thought that I'd misread the text or that the texts had been perhaps mistranslated. Thanks again for your time and consideration. mike #97137 From: westbankj@... Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 4:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness farrel.kevin Hi Scott, In Mahayana, all dharmas appear to have characteristics. On the relative level, things arise based on conditions conditions. So dharmas certainly have the three marks, otherwise cessation would not be possible. However, Mahayana says that on the ultimate level, dharmas -- even though they arise with three characteristics on the conventional level -- really never arise, nor cease; they are utterly empty. All phenomena are utterly empty, the nature of which is clarity. This is why all phenomena are said to be dream like -- it's because they don't exist subtantially, neither do they not exist. You really have to examine dharmas to understand this. Cessation is most certainly possible, yet it is still predicated on the delusion that the dharmas with characteristics are substantial. This is why Mahayana says that Arahants have removed all afflictive emotions and all causes for birth in samsara, nevertheless, there are still subtle knowledge obscurations concerning dharmas which are unremoved. This system is very different, as you can see. Dharmas being empty, the duality of nama and rupa is predicated on misunderstanding. This is why there is no limit to the activities of the illusory Buddhas in how they can help illusory beings, of course, only "limitation" is the limited karmic vision of deluded sentients. Everything is karmic vision. Samsara never existed nor not existed, all is the great bliss of Omniscience. Sentient beings are ignorant of this fact and propelled by the karmic winds. Without the right conditions for Buddhahood, sentient beings perpetuate their misunderstanding and experience samsara, or find release in cessation. Buddhas appearing such as Shakyamuni are based on the karmic visions of deluded sentient beings -- no sentient beings, no Buddhas, no samsara, nor nirvana, no nama, no rupa, no arising, no ceasing. Kevin Dear pt, Regarding: pt: "...I was a bit shocked when you said my views are mahayana :)) considering that I never studied mahayana and have only been reading theravada literature for the past few years. Anyway, I'll consider your reply for a bit and hopefully come up with a meaningful reply soon. Again, thanks for poking holes in my views and understandings, that's the reason I'm here and it seems the best way to learn." Scott: I don't mind what one believes. I'm always getting in trouble for expressing my opinions in a straight forward fashion. No one is to pay attention to me. ;-) I've determined that when emptiness or voidness or the dichotomy of substanitality/I've determined that when emptiness or voidness or the dichotomy of substanitality/insubstantialiy are the focus, even from a so-called Theravada perspective, then, nine times out of ten, the subtle influence of mahayana is there. Again, when a dhamma is said not to have a chara Sincerely, Scott. #97138 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 9:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear Kevin, Regarding: K: "...no sentient beings, no Buddhas, no samsara, nor nirvana, no nama, no rupa, no arising, no ceasing." Scott: And no sense. I'm sorry, Kevin. I've no interest in it. Sincerely, Scott. #97139 From: westbankj@... Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 5:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness farrel.kevin Dear Scott, That's fine. My intention was simply to clear up the point about Mahayana asserting that dharmas don't have characteristics, which as I explained is incorrect -- they do have charachterstics, but on the ultimate level, they are empty. I think you have an excellent understanding of dhamma and I encourage you to continue to study and understand dharmas. All my best, Kevin #97140 From: "m_nease" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 12:00 pm Subject: New (to Me) Resource m_nease Hello, I was Googling references to a particular Vinaya text and ran across this web page: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=vinaya As it happens I already have the PTS Vinaya texts but it's great to be able to search them online. There are some Abhidhamma texts here too: http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=abhidhamma I don't recall seeing these links here before, sorry if they're redundant. mike #97141 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 5:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness kenhowardau Hi Scott and Kevin, Sorry for the delay I got behind in my DSG reading over the weekend. -------- <. . .> > Scott: I asked the question because I too had an urge to launch in, but then, why bother when Kevin is simply posting some Mahayana rhetoric? This isn't a Mahayana forum. -------- To begin with I should remind you that several of us encouraged Kevin to discuss his Mahayana leanings - even though he was reluctant to do so. But more importantly, you will have noticed that Kevin appreciates the uncontrollability of dhammas. He realises that the 8fold path is not a conventional (controlled) one. How many Theravada students could you say that about? Not many! For most of us who do understand uncontrollability, the understanding of conditioned dhammas came first. We learned how dhammas arose, performed their functions, and ceased. Subsequently we saw that the idea of a sentient (controlling) being was superfluous. Conditioned dhammas were all that was required to explain the world. Kevin seems to have acquired his second phase understanding in spite of (rather than because of) his first phase understanding. That's rather remarkable, don't you think? I believe there can be unlimited hours of fruitful discussion. We would be working with a shared understanding (of uncontrollability) not without one. So we would be working in the same direction, not in opposite directions. Ken H PS: Kevin, there are questions I want to ask you but the surf is up. Lobha beckons! I'll be back soon, I hope. :-) #97142 From: westbankj@... Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 3:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness farrel.kevin In a message dated 4/5/2009 8:11:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Ken H PS: Kevin, there are questions I want to ask you but the surf is up. Lobha beckons! I'll be back soon, I hope. :-) Hi Ken. I'd be glad to try and accommodate; however; must admit, I don't know much. Yours, Kevin #97143 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 8:05 pm Subject: chanda and cetana szmicio Dear Sarah, All quotes are from Nina's cetasikas > >L: Yes, what is the role of chanda here? > What is the characteristic of chanda? > ... > S: Sanna marks or remembers the objects and chanda takes an interest in them. For example, we take an interest and remember certain films or books and the details. We follow different interests all the time and study the Dhamma in different ways as well, as we see here. Chanda accompanies all cittas with lobha or dosa and all wholesome cittas too. "Zeal (chanda) is a term for desire to act. So, that zeal has the characteristic of desire to act. Its function is scanning for an object. It is manifested as need for an object. That same (object) is its proximate cause. It should be regarded as the extending of the mental hand in the apprehending of an object." L: So chanda is looking for object. And this object condition chanda. The object is proximate cause for chanda. Is it another kind of condition there? ---- "Chanda is a necessary factor for all kinds of kusala, for dana, for sila and for bhavana. When we, for example, visit a sick person, when we want to console someone who is in trouble or when we try to save an insect from drowning, there has to be kusala chanda which assists the kusaIa citta. If there were no wholesome zeal, 'wish to act', we could not perform such acts of metta (loving kindness ) and karuna (compassion)." L: When insect is drowning. And we have instant intention to help it, there is cetana which "wills" kusala citta. There is chanda which condition kusala citta to act. Isnt it? But what is a function of manasikara at that moment? My best wishes Lukas #97144 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 8:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: DSG photo album szmicio Dear Sarah > S: Here's another good 'punappuna.m' verse: > > Thig. v.204 (transl by Pruitt. > "May you not have, Va.d.dha, craving for the world at any time. > Child, do not share in pain again and again." L: Well, that's exactly what I am doing all the time. Share in pain again and again[because of lobha]. #97145 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 10:05 pm Subject: Best Buddhist Behaviour: Never Killing! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What are the 8 Training Rules (Precepts), which brings Divinity? The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day endowed with eight features brings high reward and blessing, & is of sublime dignity and greatness. And which are these eight features? Here, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats avoid the killing of any living being, they do not hurt any of them. Without stick or any weapon, tender-hearted, gentle, caring, & mild they think only of the welfare of all living beings! So will also I, this day and night, avoid the killing and hurting of all living and breathing beings. Without any cudgel or weapon, tender-hearted, full of kindness, I will think only on the joyous welfare of all living beings and creatures. In this regard I will follow the Arahats, & I shall observe this observance day praxis perfectly! With this first praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features brings high - even divine - reward & blessing & is of sublime dignity and immense greatness... All sentient beings feel pain from violence... All sentient beings fear death in panic! Seeing other beings are like oneself; Treating other beings like oneself; One should never ever harm or kill ... Dhammapada 129 Whoever never injures, neither with weapon nor stick, beings searching for their happiness - when after death - seeking same happiness, such gentle one always gains it! Dhammapada 132 Harmlessness protects Everyone! The one who has left all violence, who never harms any being at all, whether they are moving or still, who neither kill, nor causes to kill, such one, harmless, is a Holy One. Dhammapada 405 <...> Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:44 Have a nice harmless day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Best Buddhist Behaviour: Never Killing! #97146 From: westbankj@... Date: Sun Apr 5, 2009 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Best Buddhist Behaviour: Never Killing! farrel.kevin Venerable Sir, that is the best Buddhist Behaviour. I agree! Well done... Friends: What are the 8 Training Rules (Precepts), which brings Divinity? The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day endowed with eight features brings high reward and blessing, & is of sublime dignity and greatness. And which are these eight features? Here, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats avoid the killing of any living being, they do not hurt any of them. Without stick or any weapon, tender-hearted, gentle, caring, & mild they think only of the welfare of all living beings! So will also I, this day and night, avoid the killing and hurting of all living and breathing beings. Without any cudgel or weapon, tender-hearted, full of kindness, I will think only on the joyous welfare of all living beings and creatures. In this regard I will follow the Arahats, & I shall observe this observance day praxis perfectly! With this first praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features brings high - even divine - reward & blessing & is of sublime dignity and immense greatness... All sentient beings feel pain from violence... All sentient beings fear death in panic! Seeing other beings are like oneself; Treating other beings like oneself; One should never ever harm or kill ... Dhammapada <_http://What-http://What-http://Whahttp://Whhttp://Whathtt_ (http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm) > 129 Whoever never injures, neither with weapon nor stick, beings searching for their happiness - when after death - seeking same happiness, such gentle one always gains it! Dhammapada <_http://What-http://What-http://Whahttp://Whhttp://Whathtt_ (http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm) > 132 Harmlessness protects Everyone! The one who has left all violence, who never harms any being at all, whether they are moving or still, who neither kill, nor causes to kill, such one, harmless, is a Holy One. Dhammapada <_http://What-http://What-http://Whahttp://Whhttp://Whathtt_ (http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm) > 405 <...> Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:44 Have a nice harmless day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * <_http://what-http://what-http_ (http://what-buddha-said.net/) > _http://What-http://What-htt_ (http://what-buddha-said.net/) Best Buddhist Behaviour: Never Killing! #97147 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 12:35 am Subject: Re: New (to Me) Resource jonoabb Hi Mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m_nease" wrote: > > Hello, > > I was Googling references to a particular Vinaya text and ran across this web page: > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=vinaya > > As it happens I already have the PTS Vinaya texts but it's great to be able to search them online. There are some Abhidhamma texts here too: > > http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=abhidhamma > > I don't recall seeing these links here before, sorry if they're redundant. > > mike > New to me, too, so many thanks. Looks very useful. Jon #97148 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 12:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila jonoabb Hi Mike > By my reading of the texts, the Buddha seems to have been encouraging > laypeople to resolve to undertake the eight precepts for the duration of > the Uposatha (whether referred to as "taking" the precepts or > otherwise). I don't have a fixed view on the subject; that's why I > asked if you thought that I'd misread the text or that the texts had > been perhaps mistranslated. > > Thanks again for your time and consideration. I don't recall seeing a translation referring to "taking" the precepts, only "observing" them. If there was such a translation, it would be interesting to know whether the Pali differed from the "observing" reference. I believe Jim Anderson came up with a text from somewhere which he understood to support the "taking" of precepts. Let me do a search and see if I can turn anything up ... OK, here it is. In a message a few years ago (Sep 2003) Jim said: *************************************** I was interested in seeing if I could find any passages where the Buddha explicitly refers to the five as training-precepts (sikkhaapadaani) and found one at AN IX.20 (Velaama Sutta) in a dialogue with Anathapindaka: ". . . though with pious heart he took refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and the Order, greater would have been the fruit thereof, had he with pious heart undertaken to keep the precepts [sikkhaapadaani]: abstention from taking life, from taking what is not given, from carnal lusts, from lying and from intoxicating liquor, the cause of sloth." -- GS iv p. 265 That is enough to convince me that the five precepts are indeed well-grounded in the Buddha's teachings. Best wishes, Jim *************************************** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25531 Something to go on there. Note the refernce to "pious heart", which I take to be a reference to kusala consciousness. So again, not the act in itself but the wholesome consciousness as the determinent. Hope this helps. Jon #97149 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 1:28 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... sprlrt Hi Jon (Lukas, pt, Nina, Sarah, Howard & all) Sarah gave me an e-nudge or two to resume posting to the list, so blame her too :-) Yes, the Patthana does include prior akusala dhammas as pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong dependent condition) for the arising of later kusala dhammas. The catch is that it employs the indefinite pronoum kesa.nci when stating this, which is not employed when dealing with prior kusala dhammas. Clearly (to me anyway) it is an exception, not the general every day rule. The patthana lists all the possible events that can happen during the whole samsara, including the most unlikely. A bit like when the disc of the moon eclipses that of the sun, it happens, sometimes, but I wouldn't spend my days gazing at the sky waiting for this to happen ... Alberto --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Lukas > > > L: I think that akusala citta can condition kusala, just it. > > When we say that dosa can be an object to right understanding, isnt it better example? > > ------------------------- > > Yes, that's a good example. In that example, dosa conditions panna by way of being its object ("object condition"). Dosa can also condition kusala by one other kind of condition (the name of which escapes me at the moment), as in the other examples we've been discussing. > > Jon > #97150 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (14) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 14: Kaayaanupassanaa (Contemplation of the Body) "The Buddha didn't say anywhere that one should develop samatha first... He encouraged everyone to be aware of all types of naama and ruupa." ***** Ven Dhammadharo: There's a point I'd like clarified. Tan Evan [Ven. Guttasila] said that in the Visuddhimagga, it says that samatha based on the parts of the body was not known or practised before the Buddha. Is that true? Sujin: Yes, yes [they were]. [Only] the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha were not the objects of samatha before the time of the Buddha's enlightenment. Ven D: We also heard recently from a bhikkhu that this practice of samatha based on the parts of the body was not known in other religions and not practised before the Buddha either. Only the Buddha taught samatha based on the parts of the body. Sujin: The 32 parts are kaayaanupassanaa satipa.t.thaana also. Aanaapaanasati is kaayaanupassanaa satipa.t.thaana also, but the purpose and the practice of samatha is different from the purpose and the practice of vipassanaa. So in the Visuddhimagga, he might mean [not] taught [previously] by way of vipassanaa practice. Ven D: Could be. Tony(?): Could you explain in more detail.... Sujin: There are many samatha objects in kaayaanupassanaa satipa.t.thaana. For example, the ten corpse [contemplations]. Practising by way of samatha is different from practising by way of vipassanaa. Aanaapaanasati [mindfulness of breath] by way of samatha is different from by way of practising vipassanaa. The 32 parts [of the body] by way of samatha is different from practising vipassanaa and the 4 elements by way of samatha is different from by way of vipassanaa. So many samatha subjects are the subjects of vipassanaa, kaayaanupassanaa satipa.t.thaana, but the purpose of developing samatha is different from the purpose of vipassanaa. Tony: So one could become very easily be misled into thinking they were developing vipassanaa? Sujin: Thats right. Many people think they should practise samatha first because they think that aanaapaana is samatha practice. So when they see aanaapaanasati under the kaayaaaupassanaa satipa.t.thaana section, they think that the Buddha said they should practice samatha first, but the Buddha didn't say anywhere that one should develop samatha first. Peter: Can we get back to Tan Evan's [Ven. Guttasila's] original point that many times we read that people came to the Buddha and the Buddha seems to immediately give them a particular meditation subject and tell them to go off and meditate. Sujin: I haven't read in any part that the Buddha specified any particular subject for a particular person. He may ask that person to go and look at a corpse, but he didn't mention or say 'watch this' or 'concentrate on that'. Or when he gave a cloth to a bhikkhu and that bhikkhu did like this [rubbed it], he didn't mention any particular object at all. He didn't say that you just concentrate on seeing or visual object or the tactile object or the body consciousness. He didn't say that. Ven G: The 32 parts of the body in the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta - is this only included because a person has previously practised samatha? Sujin: As I read the Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Sutta, by my understanding, I think that the purpose that the Buddha gave us the Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Sutta - he had the purpose for us not to be forgetful. He encouraged everyone to be aware of all types of naama and rurpa. ****** Metta, Sarah ========= #97151 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 2:22 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi Alberto Nice to see you again! > Yes, the Patthana does include prior akusala dhammas as pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong dependent condition) for the arising of later kusala dhammas. > --------------------------------------- I'm a little surprised to find that the relevant paccaya is pakatupanissaya, i.e., the same as for kusala dhammas conditioning later kusala dhammas. I thought it was something more exotic! > --------------------------------------- The catch is that it employs the indefinite pronoum kesa.nci when stating this, which is not employed when dealing with prior kusala dhammas. > Clearly (to me anyway) it is an exception, not the general every day rule. > --------------------------------------- Right, it's not the norm. > --------------------------------------- The patthana lists all the possible events that can happen during the whole samsara, including the most unlikely. > A bit like when the disc of the moon eclipses that of the sun, it happens, sometimes, but I wouldn't spend my days gazing at the sky waiting for this to happen ... > --------------------------------------- Right. And it certainly shouldn't be used to rationalise the arising of akusala in one's "practice" (as I've seen happen)! Thanks for coming in. Jon #97152 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New (to Me) Resource sarahprocter... Hi Mike, Thanks for sharing the resources. Pls share any more you find helpful anytime! --- On Mon, 6/4/09, m_nease wrote: >I was Googling references to a particular Vinaya text and ran across this web page: http://www.archive. org/search. php?query= vinaya As it happens I already have the PTS Vinaya texts but it's great to be able to search them online. ... S: I forget if this was the same link Connie gave once, but in any case I hadn't kept it, so I'm glad you shared this one. I believe that some of these old translations are past their copyright date which is why they can now appear. Like you, we have the PTS Vinaya texts, but I often have difficulty searching and unlike you, wouldn't know how to search them online. As there are several volumes, how do you do this search on-line? ... >There are some Abhidhamma texts here too: http://www.archive. org/search. php?query= abhidhamma I don't recall seeing these links here before, sorry if they're redundant. ... S: Never redundant....:-). I just looked at the first Abhid. book: "Fundamental Abhidhamma" - Dr. Nandamalabhivamsa It looks very clear and I like the way the Pali is included too. A simplified Ab. Sangaha perhaps? I see in his intro he referred to how controversial Ledi Sayadaw's treatise had been in Burma. Please sharing any of your searches or findings with us all! Metta, Sarah ====== #97153 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 3:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DSG photo album sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Mon, 6/4/09, szmicio wrote: >> S: Here's another good 'punappuna.m' verse: > > Thig. v.204 (transl by Pruitt. > "May you not have, Va.d.dha, craving for the world at any time. > Child, do not share in pain again and again." >L: Well, that's exactly what I am doing all the time. Share in pain again and again[because of lobha]. ... S: Same for all....lots and lots of sharing in pain again and again. Just remember, not you or I doing anything - just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. Metta, Sarah ======== #97154 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] chanda and cetana sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Mon, 6/4/09, szmicio wrote: "Zeal (chanda) is a term for desire to act. So, that zeal has the characteristic of desire to act. Its function is scanning for an object. It is manifested as need for an object. That same (object) is its proximate cause. It should be regarded as the extending of the mental hand in the apprehending of an object." L: So chanda is looking for object. And this object condition chanda. The object is proximate cause for chanda. Is it another kind of condition there? ... S: The object conditons by way of object condition, but the particular interest (chanda) arises primarily according to natural decisive support condition, the accumulations for that kind of interest. ... ---- "Chanda is a necessary factor for all kinds of kusala, for dana, for sila and for bhavana. When we, for example, visit a sick person, when we want to console someone who is in trouble or when we try to save an insect from drowning, there has to be kusala chanda which assists the kusaIa citta. If there were no wholesome zeal, 'wish to act', we could not perform such acts of metta (loving kindness ) and karuna (compassion) ." >L: When insect is drowning. And we have instant intention to help it, there is cetana which "wills" kusala citta. There is chanda which condition kusala citta to act. Isnt it? ... S: Yes the 'wish to act' or interest to act at that moment. ... >But what is a function of manasikara at that moment? ... S: Manasikara arises with every citta - it attends to the object at that moment. No object can be experienced without manasikara. You can quote back the book for it too! Metta, Sarah ======== #97155 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness sarahprocter... Dear Kevin (& Scott), --- On Mon, 6/4/09, Scott wrote: >Regarding: >K: "...no sentient beings, no Buddhas, no samsara, nor nirvana, no nama, no rupa, no arising, no ceasing." >Scott: And no sense. I'm sorry, Kevin. I've no interest in it. ... Sarah: I'm curious, Kevin. I heard you in Bangkok (and subsequently on tape), very eloquently expounding on namas and rupas, the impermanence of dhammas, on hardness which can be experienced now (as opposed to a table and other objects conceptualised) - in other words, you seemed to have really taken on board all that you'd been hearing and studying about paramattha dhammas. So now when you summarise the Mahayana teachings on emptiness and so on, are you suggesting that it's all the same or what? I think we're probably all somewhat confused about what you undersand to be the truth right now! In any case, I'm glad you've raised these topics and am delighted to see you around:-). I look forward to your continued discussion with Ken H as well. Metta, Sarah ======== #97156 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, --- On Mon, 6/4/09, sprlrt wrote: >Sarah gave me an e-nudge or two to resume posting to the list, so blame her too :-) ... S: :-) All that Patthana and other textual study and reflection is for sharing!! You seemed to suddenly disappear before, hope you stay around this time... ... >Yes, the Patthana does include prior akusala dhammas as pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong dependent condition) for the arising of later kusala dhammas. The catch is that it employs the indefinite pronoum kesa.nci when stating this, which is not employed when dealing with prior kusala dhammas. ... S: How do you understand kesa.nci in this connection? .... >Clearly (to me anyway) it is an exception, not the general every day rule. The patthana lists all the possible events that can happen during the whole samsara, including the most unlikely. A bit like when the disc of the moon eclipses that of the sun, it happens, sometimes, but I wouldn't spend my days gazing at the sky waiting for this to happen ... ... S: Beautifully put! Metta, Sarah ===== #97157 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 3:40 am Subject: Self-view permutations MN131 antony272b2 Hello all, I haven't been following recent posts so excuse me if this has already been discussed: Majjhima 131: "And how is one drawn into present things? Herein, monks, an uninstructed ordinary man who takes no account of the Noble Ones, is unskilled in the Dhamma of the Noble Ones, untrained in the Dhamma of the Noble Ones, taking no account of the good men, unskilled in the Dhamma of the good men, untrained in the Dhamma of the good men, looks upon form as self, or self as possessed of form, or form as in self, or self as in form. He looks upon feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. He looks upon perception as self, or self as possessed of perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception. He looks upon formations as self, or self as possessed of formations, or formations as in self, or self as in formations. He looks upon consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That is how, monks, one is drawn into present things." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.131.nana.html I've never been able to understand these self-views in my everyday experience. I suspect that a person doesn't walk around all day with a single self-view e.g. "looking upon form as self" but that in his/her confusion goes through many of the permutations in rapid succession. Can anyone shed light on this topic? Thanks / Antony. #97158 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 4:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Regarding: K: "To begin with I should remind you that several of us encouraged Kevin to discuss his Mahayana leanings - even though he was reluctant to do so..." Scott: My apologies. Sincerely, Scott. #97159 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 6:34 am Subject: Re: DSG photo album szmicio Dear Sarah Thank you for this good reminder. Recently I have a lot of dosa because of this strong lobha I experience in my life. I was wondering If you could tell something about anatta in daily life. Still that's the best reminder I can appreciate for now. I spend last few days on thinking about "me and my lobha", "me and my dosa". My best wishes Lukas > >L: Well, that's exactly what I am doing all the time. Share in pain again and again[because of lobha]. > ... > S: Same for all....lots and lots of sharing in pain again and again. Just remember, not you or I doing anything - just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. #97160 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... upasaka_howard Hi Alberto (and all) - In a message dated 4/6/2009 4:29:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sprlrt@... writes: Yes, the Patthana does include prior akusala dhammas as pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong dependent condition) for the arising of later kusala dhammas. The catch is that it employs the indefinite pronoum kesa.nci when stating this, which is not employed when dealing with prior kusala dhammas. ============================= That's interesting to me. Is there some brief part of the text dealing with this that you have in English translation that you could provide? I'd like to see exactly what is said there on this. With metta, Howard /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #97161 From: "jonathancoppola" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 7:00 am Subject: Drink deeply of the Dhamma! jonathancoppola Dhammapada entry #204/6/2009 Dear friendsBelow please find a part of a series of postings that will include entries from the Dhammapada. Along with these will be my comments. I encourage you to reflect on these entries, and post comments of your own here or at:jonathancoppola@... A copy of all the postings is available upon request. The source is: The Dhammapada, Translated by Venerable Ananda Maitraya, Parallex Press, 1995. Chapter 6 The Wise 4. Whoever drinks deeply of the Dhamma lives happily, With a peaceful mind. The wise man rejoices in the Dhamma Taught by the holy ones. 5. Irrigators contain the flowing waters, Fletchers fashion arrows, Carpenters shape wood to their design. Wise men mold their characters. 6. As a solid rock stands firm in the wind, Even so is a wise man unmoved by praise or blame. 7. As a deep lake remains still and clear, So do wise men, listening to the teachings, Attain a serene mind. 8. The good certainly cling to nothing. They do not talk aimlessly, concerned with personal gains. The wise, the saintly, Whether experiencing comfort or discomfort, Show neither elation nor depression. Comments: 4,5 and 7: The Dhamma is that which is taught by the holy ones. What is it? The Eightfold Path is the best of ways. The Four Noble Truths are the best of truths. Freedom from desire is the best of states. Dhp. 20 Verse 1 See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/index.html This is the one and only way. There is no other leading to the purity of vision. Follow this path; This bewilders, Mara, the tempter. Dhp 20 Verse 2 Following this path, you shall put an end to suffering. Dhp 20 Verse 3 You, yourselves, must walk the path. Buddhas only show the way. Dhp 20 Verses 4 The Buddha promises us that if we drink deeply of (practice) the Dhamma, we will attain happiness, peace, and serenity. Practicing in this way shapes and molds our characters, and we ultimately acquire the qualities of enlightenment. 6 and 8: Our practice of the path must be unshakable, and beyond the influence of the praise or blame of others. Furthermore, we must not cling to what we posses (either material or non-material) talk aimlessly, or concern ourselves with material gain. Finally, since the path is the middle way, we must not show elation or depression no matter what we are experiencing. Instead, the wise experience the peace and contentment of the renunciation of all grasping and suffering. Drink deeply of the Dhamma! With Metta, Jonathan #97162 From: mlnease Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila m_nease Hi Jon, jonoabb wrote: > OK, here it is. In a message a few years ago (Sep 2003) Jim said: > > *************************************** > I was interested in seeing if I could find any passages where the > Buddha explicitly refers to the five as training-precepts > (sikkhaapadaani) and found one at AN IX.20 (Velaama Sutta) in a > dialogue with Anathapindaka: > > ". . . though with pious heart he took refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma > and the Order, greater would have been the fruit thereof, had he with > pious heart undertaken to keep the precepts [sikkhaapadaani]: > abstention from taking life, from taking what is not given, from > carnal lusts, from lying and from intoxicating liquor, the cause of > sloth." -- GS iv p. 265 > > That is enough to convince me that the five precepts are indeed > well-grounded in the Buddha's teachings. > > Best wishes, > Jim > *************************************** > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25531 > > > Something to go on there. Note the refernce to "pious heart", which I > take to be a reference to kusala consciousness. So again, not the act in > itself but the wholesome consciousness as the determinent. Yes, of course. There is unlikely to be much in the way of kusala kamma in any conventional act (entailing as any conventional act must innumerable cittas/cetasikas), just because kusala kamma is so extremely rare at the best of times. But this is separate question (to me) from that of whether or not the Buddha encouraged the conventional act of formally taking precepts. > Hope this helps. Yes I think it does, thanks again. mike #97163 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 7:38 am Subject: Re: Emptiness avalo1968 Hello Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Robert A, > > I know you've signed off. I'm sorry you've gone silent. I think you feel I've insulted you or perhaps your teacher. You asked me to check on the writings of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa and let him speak for himself. I checked and gave an opinion. Perhaps you feel he teaches Dhamma. Why not tell me how you see this, or any other extract? > The issue is not whether you have insulted me or my teacher. The issue is that I believe that respect should be shown to all, but especially to both monks and teachers, even when you do not agree with their views, that this is a part of Right Speech, and that Right Speech is an important part of Dhamma discussions for them to be profitable. Regards, Robert A. #97164 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 7:48 am Subject: Re: Emptiness scottduncan2 Dear Robert A, R: "...The issue is that I believe that respect should be shown to all, but especially to both monks and teachers..." Scott: Very well, then. Sincerely, Scott. #97165 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 8:54 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... sprlrt Hi Jon, Sarah Thanks, it's nice to be back. Just a short summary of this paccaya first: Upanissaya means strong depedence and groups together 3 paccaya, anantara, arammana and pakatupanissaya. All three upanissaya paccaya refers to prior dhammas conditioning the arising of normally the same type of dhamma later/now. Avijja, lobha and ditthi or mana, or avijja, dosa, etc. arising now do so because they've arisen previously, and more than once, and when they arise are upanissaya paccayuppanna, arising because of that condition, but once arisen they are/can be upanissaya paccaya, the condition for their arising again in future. Arammanaupanissaya differs from arammana paccaya in this aspect. While the object that citta experiences for the briefest moment is always arammana paccaya for that citta only, at the same instant, regardless whether is rupa, nama or pannatti, but it can only be arammanupanissaya paccaya to future cittas (to be strong dependence object condition it also has to be arammanadhipati paccaya, a pleasant object, either rupa or nama-dhamma, not pannatti). Niddeso means brief exposition and this section is placed right after the first paragraph of the first book of the Patthana, a list of the 24 paccaya. 2) paccayaniddeso upanissayapaccayo purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m abyaakataana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Which should translate: Previous kusala dhammas are related to later kusala dhammas by upanissaya paccaya (a rule) Previous kusala dhammas are related to later akusala dhammas by upanissaya paccaya, sometimes (an exeption to this rule) Previous kusala dhammas are related to later abyaakataana.m dhammas by upanissaya paccaya, (another rule, which also refer, I think, to the 7th and last kusala javana citta conditioning the arising of tadalambana/registering, vipaka citta, as anantaraupanissaya paccaya) In the whole niddeso section the word kesanci is used only twice and both times in connection with upanissaya paccaya (in the akusala triplet which immediately follows the kusala triplet, and in perfect symmetry with it): Alberto purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m abyaakataana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alberto > > Nice to see you again! > > > Yes, the Patthana does include prior akusala dhammas as pakatupanissaya paccaya (strong dependent condition) for the arising of later kusala dhammas. > > --------------------------------------- > > I'm a little surprised to find that the relevant paccaya is pakatupanissaya, i.e., the same as for kusala dhammas conditioning later kusala dhammas. I thought it was something more exotic! #97166 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 9:10 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... sprlrt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi Alberto (and all) - > > In a message dated 4/6/2009 4:29:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > sprlrt@... writes: > > Yes, the Patthana does include prior akusala dhammas as pakatupanissaya > paccaya (strong dependent condition) for the arising of later kusala dhammas. The > catch is that it employs the indefinite pronoum kesa.nci when stating this, > which is not employed when dealing with prior kusala dhammas. > ============================= > That's interesting to me. Is there some brief part of the text dealing > with this that you have in English translation that you could provide? I'd > like to see exactly what is said there on this. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard, I just read you post, after having sent mine, which it should address your query, I'll also see if I can find something on this subject in the suttas. Alberto #97167 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... upasaka_howard Thanks, Alberto! :-) With metta, Howard #97168 From: mlnease Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 9:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... m_nease Hi Alberto (and All) sprlrt wrote: ... > Just a short summary of this paccaya first: > Upanissaya means strong depedence and groups together 3 paccaya, > anantara, arammana and pakatupanissaya. All three upanissaya paccaya > refers to prior dhammas conditioning the arising of normally the same > type of dhamma later/now. Is bahula acinna kamma (with its result) an example of upanissaya paccayaa? Thanks in advance. mike #97169 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 4:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness kenhowardau Hi Scott (and Kevin), > Scott: My apologies. Don't apologise, just keep playing bad cop to my good cop. :-) Ken H #97170 From: "thomaslaw03" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 4:50 pm Subject: Re: Emptiness thomaslaw03 Dear Dhamma friends, This book may be useful for Emptiness: Choong, Mun-keat. The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism (1995; second revised edition, 1999: Motilal) Regards, Thomas Law #97171 From: "colette" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 11:01 am Subject: Re: Emptiness ksheri3 > The issue is that I believe that respect should be shown to all, but especially to both monks and teachers, even when you do not agree with their views, that this is a part of Right Speech, and that Right Speech is an important part of Dhamma discussions for them to be profitable. Hi Robert, Are you speaking of "Subjective Realism"? I mean, c'mon, you're placing restrictions and conditions upon something that YOU and YOU ALONE subscribe to. <....> I speaking in terms that you apply a strict code upon which the dharma can be discussed. Several years ago people constantly questioned me about my perspective whether I was a man or a woman. WHAT? HOW INSULTING? DOES MY GENDER ACTUALLY PLAY A PART IN RELIEVING YOUR STRESS OR SUFFERING? Is my gender, then, nothing more than subjective to the Dharma? Is there a difference between the consciousness of a woman and the consciousness of a man with reference to the Dharma? If so, then isn't reasonable to just conclude that no matter what any person says it is completely subjective or contingent upon that person's gender and that the Dharma is obedient and a slave to the person that is cognizing the Dharma? <...> Obviously I'm heavy into the Vijnanavada School of thought and am itchin' to get to "connie's", I think, statement to Kevin concerning his interest in Shunyata or Sunayata. Here, also, I'm itchin' to apply something but don't know if her post/questions are applicable since I only had a few seconds to read her post quickly before my screen went blank at the library. It has to do with the 3 Kayas, the 2 Truths, and with the manifestation of the rupas we claim to be speaking of. I wish I could remember the post, where, I believe, it was connie who questioned me about being a Sauntrantika or Sarvastadan. This is fun! Gotta go and look into the msg. board to find that post. toodles, colette #97172 From: "colette" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 11:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness ksheri3 Hi Sarah, Sorry, a few minutes ago I said that your post was from "connie" and now am aware that I made the mistake. Sarah: > So now when you summarise the Mahayana teachings on emptiness and so on, are you suggesting that it's all the same or what? colette: I'll say that the 3 Buddha Bodies are all the same. The problem is with being able to perceive the different bodies in their individuality and then realizing that they really are the same single thing. We may want to meditate on their, the 3 Bodies, Svabhava but that'll take some time to meditate on. ---------------------- Sarah: > I think we're probably all somewhat confused about what you undersand to be the truth right now! colette:Why Sarah, are you placing perameters on TRUTH? Now we get back to a blurb I just posted concerning the responsibilities a person has on speaking to a monk as apposed to speaking with a lay person concerning Dharma. Is the confusion Kevin's or is the confusion yours? <..> This is a key part of the Vijnanavada school of thought/practice being able to visualize the concept in the mind and see the concept in the mind THEN to equate that which is in the mind with that which we actually see and experience in the real world. As pertaining to "truth" well, wow, that's a totally different concept and subject. Well, maybe I was not meant to apply my thoughts to Kagyus here today. I had it all lined up since I knew I wanted to apply some things I spoke of to the Kagyus earlier, today, of but when I "copied & pasted" what I had copied from my email was deleted and now I lost the moment where a citta rises and ceases all in the same instance. Better luck next time, no. I was using the Kalachakra Tantra and now am lossed to it's application here. Hopefully later when I read further on this thread, I may get the opportunity. toddles, colette #97173 From: "colette" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 11:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness ksheri3 What are you saying? " -- they do have charachterstics, but on the ultimate level, they are > empty. " How is it possible to have manifestation in the Relative world but not have it in the Ultimate world? I'm speaking from my several experiences of NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES. It's similar to what kabbalists call "the hidden face of god" where we do not see THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON or the other side of this supposed creator deity called "god". I AM POSSESSED by the reality which I first experienced through the NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE, in 1978 and am amazed that aspects of this reality which we are all part of is sooooooooo close to "that reality" that I had the curse/blessing to experience. For i gotta go. ten seconds toodles, collete #97174 From: westbankj@... Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 2:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness farrel.kevin Hello Collete, There is only one world. What are you saying? " -- they do have charachterstics, but on the ultimate level, they are > empty. " How is it possible to have manifestation in the Relative world but not have it in the Ultimate world? #97175 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 6:39 pm Subject: Re: Emptiness avalo1968 Hello Colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > > The issue is that I believe that respect should be shown to all, but especially to both monks and teachers, even when you do not agree with their views, that this is a part of Right Speech, and that Right Speech is an important part of Dhamma discussions for them to be profitable. > > Hi Robert, > > Are you speaking of "Subjective Realism"? > > I mean, c'mon, you're placing restrictions and conditions upon something that YOU and YOU ALONE subscribe to. <....> > I am afraid I cannot respond to your question of 'Subjective Realism', for I don't really know the answer, but I thank you for your response to my post. I wouldn't worry about me placing restrictions on anyone. People are free to debate in any style they choose and I am sure they will. Regards, Robert A. #97176 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 6:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, westbankj@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 4/5/2009 8:11:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Ken H > > PS: Kevin, there are questions I want to ask you but the surf is up. > Lobha beckons! I'll be back soon, I hope. :-) > > > > Hi Ken. I'd be glad to try and accommodate; however; must admit, I don't > know much. > > Hi Kevin, I am back, but maybe not with questions so much as with a lecture. :-) Sorry if it gets a bit long. It starts with your original post on Emptiness: --------- K: > I'd like to talk about the Mahayana idea of emptiness. A lot of times, I have explained to meditators that all dhammas are anattaa. They usually say, "yes, I know of course", but continue thinking there is a dharmin that should meditate. They don't get the fact that all dhammas really are anattaa, fully. There is no controllability. ----------- As I said before it is wonderful to be in agreement on this point. Just to digress for a minute: my only reservation here is that you said "thinking there is a darmin that should meditate." Do meditators really think there is a darmin (dhamma) that should meditate, or do they think there is a self that should meditate? Surely it's the latter! Saying there is a dhamma that should meditate is probably not far from the truth. Panna, samma-sati and samma-samadhi, for example, are dhammas that meditate in so far as they develop right understanding by experiencing their object (arammana) in the right way. But that is a digression. The important thing is we agree there are only conditioned dhammas - no self of any kind. In the beginning, this right understanding only grasps the theory, doesn't it? It doesn't know dhammas directly. And even its grasp on theory is weak to begin with. However, in time - after frequent occurrences of panna - the theoretical understanding becomes stronger and stronger. It gets to know the finer points of the way dhammas operate. More and more the theory falls into place and the grasp on it becomes stronger and stronger. Eventually (or so I imagine) theoretical understanding becomes so strong that it is almost identical with direct understanding. And so the transition from theoretical (pariyatti ) to direct (patipatti) is perfectly smooth. It is not a sudden leap. But then you wrote: ------------------------- K: > Well, Not only is that the case but also all dhammas are also completely empty. Because they are empty they are not just void of self, anatta, they are empty of any inherent existence. -------------------------- If that was the case then all that theoretical learning about dhammas - their causes, their functions and their cessations - would be for nothing, wouldn't it? That learning would have to be thrown out and replaced with a new understanding of something (I don't know what). Why learn it then - if it is a myth? As I understand it, Kevin, the Dhamma is about right understanding right now. What is the present reality? That, I think, is what Nina was asking you in her reply. Back to your post: ------------------------------- K: > They appear to arise. But this is only to the uninstructed. Being absolutely empty (please try to see their emptiness the way someone who fully comprehends that "all dhammas are anattaa" really takes the dhammas to be anattaa and not their self), they lack any real existence. They appear to rise and fall away but in reality, dhammas are unarisen. On the relative level, the way things appear, dhammas are real and they arise based on conditions. On the ultimate level, they are unmanifest. --------------------------------- If you hadn't told me that was the accepted Mahayana doctrine I would have thought it was just the confused thinking of a beginner who was mixing up concepts with realities. According to Theravada, the term "concepts" (pannatti) refers to the way the world appears to uninstructed worldlings. The term "realities" (paramattha dhammas) refers to the things that really appear and that are understood only by instructed disciples. So it seems to me that Mahayana is treating dhammas as if they were concepts. I have no interest in wasting my Dhamma study by learning about mere concepts. -------------------------------------------- K: > The view that I hold is the view of freedom from extremes. -------------------------------------------- That is eerily reminiscent of the Theravada teaching according to which right view is free from two extremes 1) belief in a self that lives forever and 2) belief in a self that becomes annihilated. Mahayana, it would seem, is equating "self" with "paramattha dhamma." But that would be a big mistake. Self is anything that might exist apart from (or in addition to) the paramattha dhamma. In a moment of vipassana, panna knows "there is no self here - there is only this paramattha dhamma." --------------------- K: > It is beyond everything. Dharmas are not arising and falling away, there is just vast emptiness. It is like a seed and a sprout. First there is just the seed, then a sprout grows from that seed. The seed has not been destroyed when the sprout emerges. It is not gone. Yet, the seed is not the sprout. It has no inherent existence in and of itself. It hasn't disappeared because it has sprouted, but it is no longer a seed. Likewise, it is not the sprout. Just that way is the way phenomena exist. They appear to have an inherent existence but they do not. ---------------------- Kevin, can you see why Scott wrote: "I have no accumulations to draw me there at all. It sounds circular, nonsensical, overwrought, and far from the Dhamma that does stir me" ? Isn't that the response you would expect from a level-headed, no-nonsense, seeker of the truth? Really, Kevin, time is too short! We don't have time to be talking about things that "neither exist nor don't exist." :-) And there is no need for that kind of talk. The Dhamma that is found in the original ancient texts talks about the things that really do exist. Ken H PS: I'll leave you with this quote. It is from a sutta in which the Buddha is asked about two types of teachers, those who say nothing really exists and those who say some things do really exist. The Buddha says he is of the latter type: SN22:94 Flowers: "And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. Feeling ...Perception...Volitional formations...Consciousness that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists." #97177 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 6:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness avalo1968 Hello Ken, I must say that a few weeks ago, when you and I had a little discussion, I did think at the time that the old Ken seemed to have been replaced by his 'kinder, gentler' twin. Is that the new you or did I just catch you on a good day. I appreciated it in any case. Regards, Robert A. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Scott (and Kevin), > > > Scott: My apologies. > > > Don't apologise, just keep playing bad cop to my good cop. :-) > > Ken H #97178 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 8:09 pm Subject: Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep, > > I got a little behind with our discussion thread, but you were probably glad to take a rest:-). Yes, you may feel that you are a little behind, but I am *really* behind.... "Arising conditions" must be angry at me. ;-) > --- On Thu, 26/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >Well if we are just saying that it is an event that arises, that seems different to me than saying that all these mental factors are individually experiencing it. That means that they each have consciousness. It is one thing for citta to be the experiencing element, but if these separate elements are each aware and not just part of the mechanism, they are like little conscious beings in a sense, all collaborating. I hope this makes sense. If not, I am not sure whether I can make it much clearer. > ... > S: Let me try to explain. There is no 'event' which arises. There are different dhammas, different namas and rupas which arise and fall only. As soon as we have an idea of an amalgamated 'whole' or 'event', we are no longer talking about these dhammas. > > At any moment, there is a citta (consciousness) arising and experiencing an object. This citta is always, always accompanied by a minimum of seven cetasikas (mental factors) experiencing the same object. The citta is the leader in experiencing the object, but could > not experience it without the assistance of the cetasikas. So it sounds like they are "co-experiencing" the object, rather than experiencing it separately; ie, they are each a "part of" the experience, rather than being separate experiencers. If this is the case, it is easier to understand. I am breaking out the cetasikas below to highlight them for myself: > For example, it needs concentration to 'focus on' the object, contact to 'touch' the object, feeling to 'taste' the object and so on. Each cetasika has a particular function to perform. Each has a particular characteristic. Do these cetasikas arise simeoltaneously, or in a sequence? I imagine that concentration focuses, then contact touches and then feeling tastes, and then the sense of the dhamma is given by these to the citta to experience? To me, those cetasikas all seem like function of citta; in other words, each cetasika is not a "thing that experiences" in its own right, but a "way in which" citta experiences. It would make more sense to me to say that citta focuses, touches and then tastes the object, rather than turning each one into a separate functionary in its own right. > Concentration is quite distinct from feeling, for example. There are no beings involved at all. This is the point of understanding these particular dhammas now as performing these functions; we're used to thinking in terms of Self concentrating and feeling, whereas in fact it is the function of transitory, self-less dhammas. Well, I see that the aim of describing the cetasikas the way you do is to take away any experiencing self, and it seems like I am trying to put it back in by giving these functions to consciousness. But my version of it is that consciousness is not a self; it itself is just a function and that the cetasikas are the way in which it is functioning at a different moment in relation to the dhamma. Fine hair-splitting to be sure, but it just makes more sense to me, as I don't imagine "concentration" to be a thing in its own right that can arise and do something by itself. It is consciousness that concentrates or touches or tastes. Anyway, that makes more sense to me, and seems to avoid saying that each of these functions is an actual "thing happening" rather than just a way that consciousness is behaving at the moment. > .... > >It is a problem in the first place to keep citta from appearing to be a 'recieving entity' that is aware of dhamma. To give this power to each mental factor as well certainly increases the appearance of aware beings arising and disappearing, in my view. > ... > S: Let's go back to the example you gave of washing the dishes, as this seems pretty 'real' to you. "Pretty real" is a good description, just like everything else in life. It's at least as real as a dream. :-) > There are the moments of cittas (bodily consciousness) experiencing softness or hardness, heat or cold. Then there are moments of cittas (mind-door thinking cittas) experiencing various ideas or concepts about the experiences, such as about the hot water, the dirty dishes and so on. The cittas only experience the objects. It is the accompanying cetasikas (mental factors) which 'feel' the heat, 'attend' to the object, 'focus on' what is experienced and so on. No entities or beings involved, but there are definitely dhammas or > elements involved. And what relation do these experiences of the cetasikas have to the citta? Does the citta get to experience what the cetasikas experience, or do the cetasikas have special experiences that the citta is unaware of? And what sequence do they take place in? > .... > >> S: Cittas and cetasikas arise momentarily, perform their functions of experiencing an object and then fall away. No atta is involved. > > R:> How are they aware? What form do they take to be aware of something? Citta is formless is it not? It is like a clear window, not a thing. Once you have multiple experiencing elements, you have a series of forms, do you not? I am sorry if this does not communicate well. > ... > S: Take seeing consciousness - At a moment of seeing now, there is just the experiencing of what is seen, the visible object. Seeing doesn't take any form - as you say it's formless. Similarly, the cetasikas which accompany it, all experience the same visible object, but they, themselves, are also formless. They are just the realities which experience the object at that moment, performing particular functions. No forms involved in these namas. All at the same time? Or in sequence? Does concentrating, touching, feeling, conceptualizing [if it takes place,] and other namas all take place together, or does that which is concentrated upon become touched, that which is touched is felt and tasted, that which is felt and tasted is thought about and understood, etc....? > .... > > S: I think I'll leave the other points for now (#96834), Oh thank you, my brain is getting so strained [conventionally speaking.] > but feel free to raise them again anytime. Basically, I think the ones you raise above are really important to get clear, so I'd be grateful if you'd question further on these and share your > reflections on my comments above. We all learn in this way. Thanks for your generosity. It is a workout for the cittas, and they appreciate it. The cetasikas on the other hand have a variety of opinions, but I won't sort them out right now. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = = = #97179 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 8:22 pm Subject: Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > -------------------- > > The image of a "dhamma" that I have from the Abhidhamma perspective so far is of a "perceived quality" through one of the sense-doors, such as hardness etc. I am not personally convinced that objects appear as separated individual qualities in this way. It seems unlikely to me, but I understand the concept. It is part of "one citta at a time," and "only one experient/dhamma per citta," and "no hybrid dhammas/only single quality at a time." The concept breaks down experience as one would the features of a specimen under a microscope, which leads to a very serious analysis, but may not reflect the living reality of how the things occur in situ, live. > > -------------------- > > Many points to discuss here ;-)) Thanks for making the effort! I appreciate it. > First, there is no "Abhidhamma perspective" that says anything different from what's found in the Suttas. Are you sure there is no interpretation involved when worldlings look at the suttas in one way or another? Do you and I have the same perspective on the anapanasati sutta? On what authority do either you or I think we have the "correct one." You interpret bhavana as an arising moment of understanding or of sati, I think. I interpret it as meditative awareness within meditation. Without Abhidhamma, how do you determine whether the Buddha is giving meditation instruction or describing arising cittas that happen to look a certain way? I think to say there is no difference between "raw sutta" as they are understood by many and the Abhidhamma interpretation of sutta, is not really correct. I think that what you may really be saying is that the Abdhidhamma view of sutta is the correct one. Fine for you to think that, but to say there is no other perspective possible is not, I think, looking at the whole picture. Most Buddhists [and I know that is not a basis for you, but I mention it anyway, just to show the variety of perspective] see the Eightfold Path as something to do and practice in life and meditation. You see it, I take it, as a set of moments of panna that arise spontaneously all in a row when the conditions are right and create Path Consciousness. My opinion from what little I know is that this is not only an Abhidhamma perspective but a com perspective in particular. Is this not where you get this view from, from studying Abhidhamma and com rather than sutta? Would you get this view by reading sutta only? It's not mentioned that way in sutta, but instead is given as a path to follow in life that gradually yields the fruits of the Buddhist life. So how can there be only one unified perspective? I think there is not just one interpretation of sutta, but a few valid ones that are in competition with each other. Now of course you can look at an alternate interpretation as "wrong view," but unless it flatly contadicts the literal suttas [word of the Buddha as he actually spoke it] then this is an attachment to your own view. > There's a lot of material that is common to both Suttas and the Abhidhamma. It's just the manner of presentation that differs. > Well, a lot of material in common and some important material, I take it, that is not in common. That makes a difference, especially when that which is not in common introduces terms and concepts that don't appear in the suttas at all, and ascribe them to the suttas. That is okay if one backs them up with clear material from the suttas, without editing the original sense out of them. But it is a dangerous endeavor as it does reinterpret the material according to a particular philosophy, and sometimes appears to contradict it. > Secondly, the idea that in the Abhidhamma the objects of the conventional world (people and things) are broken down into dhammas as if under a microscope is mistaken, in my view. > > The world of dhammas is a world apart from the conventional world, and it is that world of dhammas that is examined in such close detail in the Abhidhamma (as well as in the Suttas). But this examination is not carried out in order to support an understanding that is any different from the understanding spoken of in the suttas. I would like to have a few examples of how the examination of dhammas in the Abhidhamma supports an understanding that is "not any different" from that in the suttas. That would be very helpful. For just one example, does Buddha say anything about the nature of citta during sleep or between experiences, and is his explanation same or different than that given by the concept of bhavanga cittas? Is his instruction on Satipatthana or the Noble Eightfold Path as explicitly given in sutta same or different than that given by Abhidhamma and com? Is the concept of paramatha dhammas same or different than that given in sutta? I don't mean can you interpret it that way, but does it accord with what is said. > Pausing there for now. Will get back on the rest later. Thank you. I will look forward to it. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #97180 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 8:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Sarah! Moving backwards here, may eventually get to former posts.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Rob Ep & all, > > --- On Fri, 27/3/09, Robert Epstein wrote: > >Hi Jon. > Repeating message. Yet another demerit for leaving out the greeting. Gee..... > ... > S: I have a suggestion: why don't you chalk up your own demerits and let us assume you're giving yourself the necessary punishments so that you don't need to re-post the entire message again. TIA:-). Ha ha, okay, I truly was trying to correct my mistakes, so thanks for permission to move on..... > > Thanks anyway for making the 'effort' to add the greetings and doing all that keeps us sweet. As we can see, in spite of so-called best efforts, lapses occur for us all which just goes to prove the point that all dhammas, including effort of any kind, are conditioned, depending on so many factors to arise. You have made your point clearly once again! :-) Can arising conditions write some of my responses to posts for me? > Back to our discussions later....TIA! I look forward to it. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = #97181 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 8:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > ----------------------- > > I see citta as the only experiencing element, and the cetasikas as part of what is experienced by citta. This is the point of contention. > > ----------------------- > > Jon: So dhammas were to be classified according to whether they experience an object or not, you would put cetasikas into the "not" basket. Is that correct? Well it's not all or nothing. If I distinguished between my brain and my eye, or between my eye and my camera, that doesn't mean that the eye or the camera has no part in experiencing, just that the camera would not create an experience without an eye to see it, and the eye would not experience it without the brain to process it. Getting away from the physicalistic worldly example, the cetasika would not "touch" or "feel" the object without consciousness "experiencing" the touching and feeling. So I wouldn't say they have no part in the experience; I would like to say they are functions which allow citta to experience dhamma in a particular way. If that is wrong, then explain the mechanism to me if possible. How do they all experience the same dhamma and what is there relationship to each other, since they accompany each other? It makes sense that concentration allows for touching which allows for tasting, which allows for experiencing, so I would see these functions as supporting each other in a sequence or something to that effect. > > ----------------------- > > Contact does not occur between the eye-door and the object of vision without consciousness. > > ----------------------- > > Jon: I'd be interested to know basis for this assertion (my understanding of the texts is otherwise: visible object impinges first on eye-sense, with eye-consciousness arising after that) > How does it happen? Consciousness after all is just a word for experiencing, so how can the eye-door "experience" visible object without consciousness? It is a contradiction in terms, unless eye-door has its own eye-door consciousness, in which case you are getting a lot of functions each which has its own consciousness, and I see this as leading to a lot of trouble, because that makes them look like little independent entities to me. Not to you? > > ----------------------- > The question is, does eye-door have its own awareness of object of vision that is then somehow coordinated with the awareness of citta, or is it citta experiencing the object of vision through its contact with the eye-door. I think the latter makes sense, as it leaves one consciousness engaging in an act of awareness through the cetasikas by which it touches the object; the former, which leaves several separate awarenesses, is full of trouble as far as I can see. > > > I know I have read support for this view in sutta, but am not a good enough scholar to find a ready reference. > > ----------------------- > > Jon: Perhaps you read something whose author *claimed* it was based on a sutta ;-)). Do you by any chance remember the source? I am talking about sutta, not a secondary article or whatever. I don't read a lot of commentary about sutta; but yet can't remember the specific sutta. Sorry.... Will let you know if I figure it out. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (90) #97182 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 8:40 pm Subject: Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Jon! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > Thanks for this and your other post sent at around the same time. There is the usual plethora of points to get back to you on ;-)) As a start, though, I'd like to clarify my question regarding dhammas. > > > ------------------ > > > Hoping to hear soon your own understanding of what "dhammas" as found in the suttas are. > > ... > > My view of what "dhammas" are from the suttas so far is that they are impermanent and lacking in substantial identity or meaning [anatta.] Therefore clinging to objects of any kind within samsara causes suffering; and through insight and true seeing of their nature one can gradually let go of involvement and attachment to the dhammas and develop the awareness to experience nibbana. > > > > What do you think of that? Does that agree with your understanding of the Buddha's message? > > ------------------ > > My question could really be put this way: What is the definition of a dhamma? Is a computer a dhamma, is pain a dhamma, is a person a dhamma, is the body a dhamma? Why or why not? What, if you like, makes a dhamma a dhamma? As you understand the term as used in the Suttas? I would translate dhamma as "experienced object." I do not have the understanding that Abhidhamma does that each experienced quality, such as hardness or motion is a separate moment all by itself and that these qualities are not experienced at same time. I don't think the suttas give this kind of restriction to the experience of object. However, I would say that whatever is specifically experienced in the moment is the dhamma, and then maybe we can disagree on how singular that experience of dhamma is. Certainly a lot of what Buddha talks about in "clinging to objects" is clinging to the concepts we have of them and about them, so I think a lot of what passes for objects are really concepts or attachments, feelings and memories that surround the object in our way of thinking and feeling about them. The nature of samsara is to cling to imagined objects that have imagined meanings. Perhaps we can agree on that. Best, Robert E. = = = = = = = = = = #97183 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 8:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > Hello Ken, > > I must say that a few weeks ago, when you and I had a little discussion, I did think at the time that the old Ken seemed to have been replaced by his 'kinder, gentler' twin. Is that the new you or did I just catch you on a good day. I appreciated it in any case. Hi Robert, Thanks for the compliment, but no, unfortunately, nothing has changed very much in that regard. I still make blunt statements without giving enough thought to how they will be received. With occasional exceptions, of course! Scott, on the other hand is very thoughtful and diplomatic. With occasional exceptions, of course! :-) So I was definitely only joking when I pretended to depict myself as the good cop and Scott as the bad cop. Ken H #97184 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 9:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness avalo1968 Hello Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > Thanks for the compliment, but no, unfortunately, nothing has changed > very much in that regard. I still make blunt statements without giving > enough thought to how they will be received. With occasional exceptions, > of course! > > Scott, on the other hand is very thoughtful and diplomatic. With > occasional exceptions, of course! :-) > > So I was definitely only joking when I pretended to depict myself as the > good cop and Scott as the bad cop. > > Ken H > OK - I will sleep well knowing that you and Scott are on guard, ready with 'shock and awe' to turn back any Mahayana heresies or 'willful action' nonsense that might appear on DSG. Enjoy, Robert A. #97185 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 1:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Precepts and Siila jonoabb Hi Mike > Yes, of course. There is unlikely to be much in the way of kusala kamma > in any conventional act (entailing as any conventional act must > innumerable cittas/cetasikas), just because kusala kamma is so extremely > rare at the best of times. But this is separate question (to me) from > that of whether or not the Buddha encouraged the conventional act of > formally taking precepts. Then there is the passage just below quoted by Ven. Samahita in a recent post. More food for thought. Jon Quoted from Ven. Samahita's post (emphasis ** added by me): The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day endowed with eight features brings high reward and blessing, & is of sublime dignity and greatness. And which are these eight features? Here, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats avoid the killing of any living being, they do not hurt any of them. Without stick or any weapon, tender-hearted, gentle, caring, & mild they think only of the welfare of all living beings! **So will also I, this day and night, avoid the killing and hurting of all living and breathing beings.** Without any cudgel or weapon, tender-hearted, full of kindness, I will think only on the joyous welfare of all living beings and creatures. In this regard I will follow the Arahats, & **I shall observe this observance day praxis perfectly!** With this first praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features brings high - even divine - reward & blessing & is of sublime dignity and immense greatness... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/97145 #97186 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 1:45 am Subject: Re: The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin in Bangkok, 197... jonoabb Hi Alberto > Just a short summary of this paccaya first: > Upanissaya means strong depedence and groups together 3 paccaya, anantara, arammana and pakatupanissaya. All three upanissaya paccaya refers to prior dhammas conditioning the arising of normally the same type of dhamma later/now. Avijja, lobha and ditthi or mana, or avijja, dosa, etc. arising now do so because they've arisen previously, and more than once, and when they arise are upanissaya paccayuppanna, arising because of that condition, but once arisen they are/can be upanissaya paccaya, the condition for their arising again in future. ... ... > Which should translate: > Previous kusala dhammas are related to later kusala dhammas by upanissaya paccaya > (a rule) > Previous kusala dhammas are related to later akusala dhammas by upanissaya paccaya, sometimes (an exeption to this rule) > Previous kusala dhammas are related to later abyaakataana.m dhammas by upanissaya paccaya, (another rule, which also refer, I think, to the 7th and last kusala javana citta conditioning the arising of tadalambana/registering, vipaka citta, as anantaraupanissaya paccaya) > > In the whole niddeso section the word kesanci is used only twice and both times in connection with upanissaya paccaya (in the akusala triplet which immediately follows the kusala triplet, and in perfect symmetry with it): > > Alberto Thanks, Alberto. Very clearly articulated. I shall consider it further. I do take your point about "kesanci" indicating, as you put it, an exception to the general rule (rather than a further general rule). Jon #97187 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 1:47 am Subject: Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E I'm jumping ahead to this post to ask a follow-up question before I get to replying properly. > ----------------------- I would translate dhamma as "experienced object." ... I would say that whatever is specifically experienced in the moment is the dhamma, ... > ----------------------- Would you mind telling us the basis in the suttas for this understanding of the meaning of "dhammas". > ----------------------- > Certainly a lot of what Buddha talks about in "clinging to objects" is clinging to the concepts we have of them and about them, so I think a lot of what passes for objects are really concepts or attachments, feelings and memories that surround the object in our way of thinking and feeling about them. The nature of samsara is to cling to imagined objects that have imagined meanings. ... > ----------------------- I take it that these remarks are partly in explanation of the "experienced object" translation. Again, whereabouts in the suttas can what you describe here be found? Thanks Jon #97188 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 1:59 am Subject: Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E > --------------------------------------- > > I'm wondering if this is an idea you've come to after a study of the suttas, or whether it's a view you've read about somewhere and find appealing. > > Well.....it is something that I am saying about the three marks that I think is kind of obvious, and yes, is based on my understanding probably from sutta. It's a view. You mention that you don't know where I got it from, but you don't either refute or discuss it other than to wonder if it's my own idea or not. :-) > --------------------------------------- Well because if, for example, it's based on a reading of certain suttas then I'd like to look at those suttas and see what they say. If it's based on another person's approach that you find appealing, I'd probably have less to say about it. I don't have any strong views of my own on the matter, but I do know what I understand the texts to say. > --------------------------------------- > > I don't suppose it matters. > > Then why'd ya bring it up? :-))) > --------------------------------------- Fair enough question. The answer is, I'm curious to know ;-)). The answer you've given so far is "probably from sutta", which leaves me still a little curious ;-)) > --------------------------------------- > So you choose not to address what I brought up, and then say [my summary:] > > a. suttas speak about dhammas > b. there is a need for dhammas to be understood > c. how the "characteristics" fit into the understanding of dhammas is unimportant. > d. what is important is to understand how insight can be developed. > > can you please tell me how those four points hang together, and what you would like me to take away from that? It's not important how we talk about dhammas? It's not important how the characteristics fit in? Or what? > --------------------------------------- Thanks for summarising my 'case' as you understand it. That's very helpful. Let me respond by giving a revised version of your summary: a. the suttas speak at length about dhammas b. the suttas say that dhammas are to be understood c. among the things to be understood about dhammas are the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anattaa d. however, these characteristics are not seen to any degree at the beginning level; the understanding of dhammas begins with an understanding at an intellectual level (about what dhammas are, etc) and, at a direct level, understanding the difference between nama and rupa. It's for this reason that I said that whether the 3 characteristics are inherent in, or are just descriptive of, dhammas is immaterial to a beginning of the development of insight at this present moment. > --------------------------------------- > Again, you criticize my "silly word," reification, but have nothing to say about my point - that anicca, which is the characteristic of "not having or being a self" should not be made into a 'something' when it's point is that the idea of a self or entity is 'nothing.' > --------------------------------------- I don't follow this last bit. To my understanding, the point of the not-self characteristic is that the idea we have of a self is wrong, not that the idea of a self is 'nothing' (whatever that means). If you are suggesting an inherent self-contradiction in the notion of *not-self* as a *characteristic* of dhammas, I'm afraid I'm unable to see the point you are trying to make. Sorry. > --------------------------------------- It doesn't matter whether the suttas mention the word "reification" or not. That really is a bogeyman! > --------------------------------------- I agree, the fact that the suttas don't mention the expression "reification of dhammas" is not the point. The point is whether that notion (i.e., the notion of "reification of dhammas" or, in this case, "reification of the characteristic of anicca") is present or has a basis in the suttas in any shape or form, expressed in whatever terms. I'm not aware that it is or has. > --------------------------------------- Well it can be a big problem to develop a concept about something that is absent, and then turn the absence into a positive characteristic that can supposedly itself be observed. > --------------------------------------- The fact that a characteristic is expressed in terms of a negative (anicca, anatta) does not make it a "concept about something that is absent". The 3 characteristics are, to my understanding, *attributes* of dhammas. Pausing there for this post. Jon #97189 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 2:13 am Subject: Re: effort. jonoabb Hi Robert E > ------------------------------------ > Isn't it a question of what texts one trusts, since there are terms introduced in Abhidhamma that are not in Sutta, and terms in com that are not in Abhidhamma. How far do you go from the Buddha's own words before you need something other than acceptance on faith? > ------------------------------------ I think the position with regard to terms is similar to what we discussed in your previous post. The terms used may differ, but the question is whether there's any difference in the underlying meaning. And on that score I'm not aware of any inconsistency between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma (if you know of any, please feel free to bring them up for discussion). > ------------------------------------ > Well then what is the level of awareness that you would propose? And what if the model is wrong? That is okay? > ------------------------------------ If the understanding of how there may be the development of the path at this moment of writing/reading this post is correct, then there is the chance for that development to occur, and how things really are will become apparent as the path is further developed. So in that respect there is no need to have a comprehensive blueprint of how everything fits together. Indeed, the idea that that was necessary would be a hindrance to the development of awareness now as we write/read. > ------------------------------------ > > I can assure you I'm not personally arguing for one outcome over another, as I don't see that it matters. (I do however like to identify the orthodox textual view.) > > The orthodox textual view from which texts? And why do you like to identify it if it is not important? > ------------------------------------ I think getting to understand the views expressed in the commentaries is very important (and I didn't mean to indicate otherwise). I'm happy to set out what that view is, as best I understand it, but I'm not going to go further and argue that that must be the way things are, because I have no way of knowing. > ------------------------------------ > What is important? What is the awareness that you believe *is* relevant to understanding the true nature of dhammas/reality in the moment? > ------------------------------------ It has to start with an intellectual understanding of the teaching about "dhammas": what they are, what kinds there are, which ones arise in our daily life, which can be discerned only be developed panna, etc. > ------------------------------------ > I think the message is pretty clear that you are not interested in discussing whether the citta/dhamma theory holds together or not. I didn't realize this was not of interest to you, so perhaps it will be better not to discuss it. > ------------------------------------ I don't understand what you mean when you say "whether the citta/dhamma theory holds together or not". I'm happy to discuss anything that appears in the texts (i.e., the Pali canon). Jon #97190 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 12:12 am Subject: Pure Praxis: No Theft! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What are the 8 Training Rules (Precepts), which brings Divinity? The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day endowed with eight features brings high reward and blessing, & is of sublime dignity and greatness. And which are these eight features? In this, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats avoid all stealing of others' property and abstain from any cheating. Always waiting till whatever thing is freely and only openly given, free from any thievish intent, they remain intact and pure both in mind & moral! May also I, this day and night, avoid all stealing & not cheat anyone. By that I will follow the traits of these perfected Arahats! I shall then have observed the Uposatha observance day perfectly. With this second praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features brings high - even divine - reward & blessing & is of sublime dignity and immense greatness... The one, who never takes, what is not freely & openly given, whether long or short, fine or foul, exquisite or ordinary, such one is a Holy One. Dhammapada 409 Behaviour that counts as ways of stealing: Cheating with values, documents, weights or measures, embezzlement, corruption, fraud, misappropriation, robbery, theft, swindling, trickery, forgery, counterfeit, extortion, bribing, blackmail, tax-evasion, false accounting, double book-keeping, over-prizing, pirating, deliberate false valuation of assets, and insurance fraud...! <..> Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:44 Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Best Buddhist Behaviour: No Theft! #97191 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 5:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Secluded Place. Discussions with Khun Sujin (15) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Part 15: Characters and particular types of objects "There must be awareness of 5 khandhas" ***** Tony: In the commentary to the Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana Sutta, it suggests that certain types of people would be more suited to developing vipassanaa with certain types of object. Sujin: Is it in the Mahaa Satipa.t.thaana or [in a section on] samatha practice about the 6 carita (characters)? The six carita are for samaadhi, not for vipassanaa. [The six carita: raaga-carita (greedy-natured), dosa-carita (hate-natured), moha-carita (dull-natured), saddhaa-carita (faithful-natured), buddhi-carita (intelligent-natured), vitakka-carita (ruminating-natured).] Tony: In the commentary. Some of them are not samatha objects. It divides it into the four sections. ....It seems to be saying feelings would be better for one type.... Sujin: No, I don't think one should select anything for practising satipa.t.thaana, but one has one's own tendency to be aware of such and such object by one's own accumulation and the Buddha knows who has the tendency to be aware of what type of reality. He did not encourage anyone to just be aware of citta or just be aware of vedanaa, because there must be awareness of 5 khandhas and he said that there are 20 sakkaaya di.t.thi [personality beliefs] , not only five. Ven Dhammadharo: Why do you bring that up? Sujin: 5 khandhas - in order to encourage people to see the subtlety of how one should develop right understanding of all, in order to eradicate wrong view. Ven D: When it speaks about people with weak samatha, that they practise kaayaanupassanaa satipa.t.thaana and people with strong samatha practise.... Sujin: But you see this is a very wide explanation because for aanaapaanasati, it's very subtle and it's kaayaanupassanaa satipa.t.thaana. So one can see the very fine accumulations of different ones - to have the tendency to be aware of different objects by their own accumulations. However, we cannot specify that kaayaanupassanaa satipa.t.thaana is good for you or right for you. ***** Metta, Sarah ======= #97192 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 5:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dukkha jati punappuna.m - Jaatipi dukkhaa, jaraapi dukkhaa, mara.nampi dukkha.m sarahprocter... Hi Lukas & Connie, I meant to say that this (#96967) was a great post with all the detail on the the 1st NT. You said you were continuing, but wonder if I missed something. I'm also knocking on Connie's e-door - I remember you send some detailed quotes and questions to her, continuing your Abhi studies. She may not have seen it while she was away.... hope we see your partnership continue:). Metta, Sarah --- On Tue, 31/3/09, szmicio wrote: >Dear Han,Sarah and friends Here is a quote from Saccavibhango, Vibhangapali. (PTS translation with its orginal transcription in paali) 4. Analysis of truth (Saccavibha" ngo) 1. Analysis according to the discourses (Suttantabhaajaniiy a.m) <<189. Cattaari ariyasaccaani; dukkha.m ariyasacca.m, dukkhasamudaya. m [dukkhasamudayo (syaa.)] ariyasacca.m, dukkhanirodha. m [dukkhanirodho (syaa.)] ariyasacca.m, dukkhanirodhagaamin ii pa.tipadaa ariyasacca.m. >> The Four Noble Truths are: The Noble Truth of suffering; the Noble Truth of the cause of suffering; the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering; the Noble Truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. 1. The Truth of suffering (Dukkhasacca. m) <...> #97193 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 5:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Emptiness sarahprocter... Hi Robert A (Ken H & Scott), --- On Tue, 7/4/09, Robert wrote: >OK - I will sleep well knowing that you and Scott are on guard, ready with 'shock and awe' to turn back any Mahayana heresies or 'willful action' nonsense that might appear on DSG. ... S: :-) Yes, you can safely leave that task to them while you sleep in peace. It helps that they are in opposite time zones, so little will pass them by for long... Glad to see you're 'bonding' with them and appreciate the good humour. I'm sure it takes some patience and persistence to get used to us all here.. The barks are definitely worse than the bites:-). Metta, Sarah ====== #97194 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 5:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self-view permutations MN131 sarahprocter... Hi Antony, I always like to hear your reflections on suttas and the good questions you raise: --- On Mon, 6/4/09, Antony Woods wrote: >Majjhima 131: "And how is one drawn into present things? Herein, monks, an uninstructed ordinary man who takes no account of the Noble Ones, is unskilled in the Dhamma of the Noble Ones, untrained in the Dhamma of the Noble Ones, taking no account of the good men, unskilled in the Dhamma of the good men, untrained in the Dhamma of the good men, looks upon form as self, or self as possessed of form, or form as in self, or self as in form. He looks upon feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling.<....> http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.131. nana.html >I've never been able to understand these self-views in my everyday experience. I suspect that a person doesn't walk around all day with a single self-view e.g. "looking upon form as self" but that in his/her confusion goes through many of the permutations in rapid succession. >Can anyone shed light on this topic? .... S: This is from the Bhaddekaratta Sutta. In the verse at the beginning, with regard to present dhammas, it says: "Instead with insight let him see Each presently arisen state; Let him know that and be sure of it, Invincibly, unshakeably." [Paccuppanna~nca yo dhamma.m, tattha tattha vipassati; Asa.mhiira.m asa.mkuppa.m, ta.m vidvaa manubruuhaye] So, it's referring to the understanding of presently appearing dhammas with insight (vipassanaa). Now, the further detail which you quote above begins with: "And how is one drawn into present things?". The Bodhi/Nanamoli translation gives: "And how, bhikkhus, is one vanquished in regard to presently arisen states?" A footnote mentions that the MA glosses: "One is dragged in by craving and views because of the lack of insight." So what is there lack of insight into? Ruupa, vedana, sa~n~na, sa'nkhaara and vi~n~naana - in other words, into all dhammaa. Why? Because these dhammaa are taken for atta, for something or someone. This is referring to atta-vaadupaadaaana or atta-di.t.thi. We hear a sound and there's an idea that it's a vacuum-cleaner or siren that's heard. We see a visible object and there's an idea that it's a computer screen or book that's seen. The same applies to the other khandhas. There is not an understanding of just 'the seen' in 'the seen' or 'the heard' in 'the heard'. Furthermore, there's an idea of someone experiencing these objects, no understanding of seeing, hearing, feeling, thinking and other naamas. Of course, there isn't atta-di.t.thi arising all the time. However, for the 'uninstructed ordinary man' referred to in the quote, the underlying tendency (the anusaya) is there, accumulated with each citta, not yet eradicated. It'll manifest as atta-di.t.thi whenever there are conditions for it to arise. It's not a matter of going through any mental 'permutations', but of understanding the various dhammaa, including the atta di.t.thi when it arises, as conditioned realities. This is a start, an indication of how I read the lines. Is there any atta-di.t.thi now? Is the visible object being taken for some 'thing' now? If not, what is the reality appearing now? It's not a matter of selecting or of trying to find atta-view, but of developing insight into what appears now. Let me know what further thoughts you have on this, Antony. Metta, Sarah ============ #97195 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DSG photo album sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Mon, 6/4/09, szmicio wrote: >Recently I have a lot of dosa because of this strong lobha I experience in my life. I was wondering If you could tell something about anatta in daily life. Still that's the best reminder I can appreciate for now. ... S: What about seeing and visible object now? No one's very interested in them, but if there were no seeing of visible objects, there'd be no attachment, no aversion on account of what's seen. The same applies to the other sense objects. We might so much about what is experienced through the senses, conjuring up long stories about what is experienced, forgetting that such experiences are just brief moments of vipaka. All dhammas are so very anatta - so unexpected and conditioned in ways we can never know about. None of them are atta in any sense. I think the only way to undersand more about anatta is to understand such dhammas when they arise, when they appear now. The more understanding, the less 'lost in stories - slowly, slowly, without expectation, however. ... >I spend last few days on thinking about "me and my lobha", "me and my dosa". .. S: It's all about the story of 'Lukas' or 'Sarah' in my case.....You're pointing to the same as Queen Mallika - wherever we look, none is ever as dear as we are to ourselves. This is the opposite of metta and the other brahma viharas, when for once, our (wholesome)concern is with others. Of course, the highest kusala is the moment of insight. At moments of right understanding, no 'me', no 'others' at all....just dhammas. Metta, Sarah ====== #97196 From: sachin bahade Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 7:02 am Subject: vipassana in reading books (studying) sach_bahade resp, sir, when reading a book for study, what should be the mind state, by continue reading . there may be we follow vipassana by which our mind become pure. \ Be Happy............ #97197 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 7:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Emptiness avalo1968 Hello Sarah, Here is something to consider (or not, as you like): In the end, when we have these discussions, aren't we all talking about belief? When someone on this forum claims that their position is the 'correct' Theravada interpretation and the other person's is 'wrong', isn't it always true that there will be large numbers of other people who consider themselves to be Theravada practitioners and at the same time disagree with the prevailing view at DSG? Even if voluminous sutta and commentary quotes are provided, aren't these subject to varied interpretations? Doesn't all of this argue for perhaps a little less certainty in how views are expressed? Finally, it is possible that a Dhamma discussion is of a fundamentally different nature from a debate where two parties are trying to prove or disprove a mathematical theorem. It is fine to have the precise logic and reasoning, but for a Dhamma discussion something more is needed, to show respect for the subject matter and not lose sight of what must be the ultimate purpose. "He who has understanding and great wisdom does not think of harming himself or another, nor of harming both alike. He rather thinks of his own welfare, of that of others, of that of both, and of the welfare of the whole world. In that way one shows understanding and great wisdom." Anguttara Nikaya, Fours, No. 18 OK, I will now forever more step down from my soap box and let this subject be. Thank you for providing a forum where I can express my views, such as they are. With metta, Robert A. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Robert A (Ken H & Scott), > > --- On Tue, 7/4/09, Robert wrote: > >OK - I will sleep well knowing that you and Scott are on guard, ready with 'shock and awe' to turn back any Mahayana heresies or 'willful action' nonsense that might appear on DSG. > ... > S: :-) Yes, you can safely leave that task to them while you sleep in peace. It helps that they are in opposite time zones, so little will pass them by for long... > > Glad to see you're 'bonding' with them and appreciate the good humour. I'm sure it takes some patience and persistence to get used to us all here.. The barks are definitely worse than the bites:-). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > #97198 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 7:35 am Subject: Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > I'm jumping ahead to this post to ask a follow-up question before I get to replying properly. > > > ----------------------- > I would translate dhamma as "experienced object." ... I would say that whatever is specifically experienced in the moment is the dhamma, ... > > ----------------------- > > > Would you mind telling us the basis in the suttas for this understanding of the meaning of "dhammas". > > > ----------------------- > > Certainly a lot of what Buddha talks about in "clinging to objects" is clinging to the concepts we have of them and about them, so I think a lot of what passes for objects are really concepts or attachments, feelings and memories that surround the object in our way of thinking and feeling about them. The nature of samsara is to cling to imagined objects that have imagined meanings. ... > > ----------------------- > > I take it that these remarks are partly in explanation of the "experienced object" translation. Again, whereabouts in the suttas can what you describe here be found? Although I demand sutta quotes quite freely [and so far you haven't given me any, by the way,] like you, I am also less forthcoming with the appropriate quotes on a moment's notice, and I do not readily have a sutta that will support what is my sense of things from a variety of sutta readings. I even leave room for the possibility, that, with further discussion and clarification, I might amend portions of my statement that are unclear. I feel a teensy little bit "baited" in the sense that you asked me for *my* understanding of what a dhamma was, and I gave you my *sense* of this, rather than an official definition, which you then followed with this demand for a direct sutta justification. My question to you was: "Do you agree with this basic sense of how the Buddha talks about attachment to objects" and objects being illusory and conceptual in the way that we see them. You have not answered this. Should I assume you totally disagree with it, and that you think the way we ordinarily see dhammas is quite directly and real, without illusion or interceding concepts? I don't mind the request for sutta material, but I would love it if you would: a/ answer my question as to where you agree or disagree with my understanding as expressed here; and b/ give me a sutta quote if you have one that defines dhamma the way it is defined in Abhidhamma, or supports the Abhidhamma view of a dhamma as a single quality arising all by itself for a moment, such as "hardness," "motion," etc. In the meantime I will see if I can come up with any clarifying material. Keep in mind, just to settle this one issue, that when you ask me what I think of this or that, I do not rely on articles or commentaries. I do rely on translations - a necessary evil - but I am only interested in what the suttas say in this kind of very specific discussion, and if I do go to a commentary, comment or article to support a position, I will clearly specify what it is and refer to it. Otherwise, it is my own sense of things based on my [not always so great] reading and understanding of sutta, or a direct reading of a specific sutta [such as anapanasati] that I am relying on. I mention this, since you sort of suggested that I might have been borrowing someone else's view from an article or elsewhere in a recent exchange. Best, Robert = = = = = = = = #97199 From: "Robert Epstein" Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 7:44 am Subject: Re: effort. epsteinrob Hi Jon. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert E > > > ------------------------------------ > > Isn't it a question of what texts one trusts, since there are terms introduced in Abhidhamma that are not in Sutta, and terms in com that are not in Abhidhamma. How far do you go from the Buddha's own words before you need something other than acceptance on faith? > > ------------------------------------ > > I think the position with regard to terms is similar to what we discussed in your previous post. The terms used may differ, but the question is whether there's any difference in the underlying meaning. And on that score I'm not aware of any inconsistency between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma (if you know of any, please feel free to bring them up for discussion). That is fine. It seems we are trading challenges to come up with sutta quotes, and neither of us are taking up the challenge. I was hoping that you would find a sutta passage or passages that support one or more of the views that I identify from Abhidhamma: 1/ a dhamma is a single quality, such as hardness, arising for a moment all by itself, never a more complex experience, such as hardness and smoothness at the same moment [eg, experience of a table top.] 2/ cittas are individual events that arise as one-time, one-moment occurences, that are not part of a "flow" of moments but are discrete independent happenings. 3/ bhavana refers to a single moment of awareness, rather than the activity of meditation. 4/ meditation should not be undertaken as an activity directed towards developing satipatthana, because that would represent the wrong view that there is a self that can practice and make progress. A single quote from sutta on any of these subjects would be greatly appreciated. I will see if I can find any quotes myself. The whole anapanasati sutta contains instructions for breathing meditation leading to satipatthana in my view, but you of course don't interpret it that way. Best, Robert = = = = = = = = = =