#99000 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 1:48 pm Subject: Re: Please comment on this description of the path jonoabb Hi Alex (98986) > =============== > If a person never develops samatha, than how can he ever have accumulations for them? Same with "vipassana" (which I don't consider to be totally separate practice). > =============== Both samatha and vipassana are developed by the arising of previously accumulated samatha and vipassana. > =============== > Are you saying that 8th limb of noble 8 fold path is not needed for Arhatship? > =============== The path factors are the mental states (cetasikas) that accompany the moment of path consciousness. At the moment of enlightenment, all 8 path factors arise. At moments of mundane insight development, most (but not all 8) factors arise. > =============== > What about Dhp 372 > "There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.than.html#dhp-372 > =============== The reference to "no discernment for one with no jhana" is a reference to the samadhi that accompanied the moment of enlightenment, at which time the samadhi is of a degree equivalent to that of jhana. Jon #99001 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 2:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Jon and all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (98984) > > =============== > > > Yes, the Buddha attained enlightenment while seated under a Bodhi >tree. > > > > And not just him. MANY people who attained Arhatship attained it either in caves, under trees, etc. > > =============== > > Yes, many did. But also many did not. Which people achieved Arahatship not in those situation? A)Please list them and give sutta (or even Comy) sources. As I remember correctly the Commentaries (VsM?) states that if a layperson achieved stages of awakening at home, they did it because they had accumulations from their time as a monk who did ascetic practices. B) Please prove that they have not had physical retreat or seclusion at home nor they have fullfilled these factors in their previous lives. It may be possible that "Arahant while cooking" events had a LOT OF accumulations from their previous lives. > > =============== > > In AN 8.2 one 8 conditions for insight = seclusion > > > > "Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: >seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the >third requisite condition... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html > > =============== > > This is another sutta dealing with a particular "case where", How do you know that it is a "particular case"? The sutta doesn't say that physical seclusion is optional. > So this sutta is not saying that awareness/insight can only be >developed if seclusion is first attained. There are 7 other causes, not just physical seclusion. > > =============== > > Aren't those people suppose to be examples for US? What makes you think that your path is the easier one than theirs? > > =============== > > We need to consider carefully what the Buddha actually said, rather than try to emulate the attainments of others. > > Jon And this is what he has said: Jon, do you understand what it says under "And what more is to be done?" ??? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html Besides, didn't you say #98999 to the above passage that: >>>>> Jon: Yes. The sutta says that in the case of the monk who is already of developed samatha and insight, the "things to be done" include the abandoning of covetousness and ill-will. >>>>>>> Thank you for agreeing with the sutta. > =============== #98999 >Alex: Then it does list and show thing to be done. What questions? >Do you think that we should NOT do what the sutta states? > =============== >Jon: >Not all suttas describe the person of our own level of understanding. Jon, is your understanding higher or lower than of those great monks living under a Buddha? Do you think that your path is easier than theirs or harder? > ===============#98999 >Alex: Generalizations? > > "Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html > > There the Buddha has generalized. > Seclusion IS one of the requisite conditions for Panna. > =============== Jon: This passage is talking about a particular case. It therefore cannot be taken as making a general statement to the effect that physical seclusion is a requisite condition for the beginning arising of awareness and insight. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What makes you think that it is particular case? Maybe the precepts are also a particular case? Maybe the fact that bad kamma with immediate result is also a particular case? > Jon: #99000 >Both samatha and vipassana are developed by the arising of previously >accumulated samatha and vipassana. And how does one develop samatha & vipassana for the first time? If you never sit on a bike because "I don't have skill at riding it, I'll ride it only when I am skillful at it." Would you ever accumulate the skill to ride it if you never do it? No. With metta, Alex #99002 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 2:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Jon and all interested, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > My reading of this is that even the reference to "bodily seclusion" >is in fact a reference to the development of samatha/jhana, and not to >physical seclusion per se. > >The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by >the Buddha, as far as I know. > > Jon > So do you say that physical seclusion = Jhana? Good. What is Jhana, Jon? How easy or hard is it for householders and why? Is it easier to do it while being PHYSICALLY secluded, or can you develop Jhana in lets say a strip club or the mall, or the busy kitchen, etc etc? Some of the reasons why the Buddha didn't praise physical seclusion of other religious ascetics were: a) They practiced bodily mortification and/or had spotty Ethics (Sila) b) Wrong views which they've held. It is not due to physical seclusion, but to the way it is used and the views with which it is done. With metta, Alex #99003 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 10:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/8/2009 4:49:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, j onabbott@... writes: Both samatha and vipassana are developed by the arising of previously accumulated samatha and vipassana. ============================ Do you realize that this speaks of infinite regress? With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99004 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/8/2009 4:53:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (98981) > =============== > The PTS dictionary describes kaya-viveka as "seclusion of the body, > hermitism." (Please note the "hermitism," which is physical isolation.) Also, > please note part (1) of Nyanatiloka's dictionary definition that I copy at > the end. > ... > Viveka > 'detachment', seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: > * (1) bodily detachment (kÄ�ya-viveka), i.e. abiding in solitude free > from alluring sensuous objects; > =============== Thanks for this. I wonder what is the basis/source for the opinions expressed by the two compilers? Without knowing that, it's difficult to comment. --------------------------------------------------------- The bottom line, Jon, is that you believe what you wish to believe. What of the Niddesa? Do you suppose that the Ven. Nyanatiloka is falsely attributing? Unfortunataly, he's no longer around to check with. ------------------------------------------------------- This subject has come up in the Sangiiti Sutta thread being lead by Connie and Scott. Solitude is one of three "weapons" mentioned there. Nina has given us the detail from the commentary and sub-co (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/95280): ******************* The second weapon is seclusion (in the sutta translated as detachment), pavivekha. The co states that there are three kinds of seclusion: of body, of citta and of the substratum of rebirth (upadhi). As to bodily seclusion, he lives withdrawn, enjoying renunciation. The subco: as to enjoying renunciation, he has endeavour to develop the first jhaana and so on. Co: As to seclusion of citta, this is the citta that has attained superior purity. subco: since the association with defilements has been abandoned, there is seclusion of citta. It has been said that the citta has attained superior purity with reference to the freedom of jhaana. As to seclusion of substratum, upadhi viveka, this is the attainment of the unconditioned, as the co explains. The subco adds: this is nibbaana. ******************* My reading of this is that even the reference to "bodily seclusion" is in fact a reference to the development of samatha/jhana, and not to physical seclusion per se. ------------------------------------------ I think that is, let me say, "off the mark." ------------------------------------------ The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the Buddha, as far as I know. -------------------------------------------- Well, Jon, we must have read different nikayas. --------------------------------------------- Jon ============================ With metta, Howard /As a deer in the wilds, unfettered, goes for forage wherever it wants: the wise person, valuing freedom, wanders alone like a rhinoceros. In the midst of companions — when staying at home, when going out wandering — you are prey to requests. Valuing the freedom wander alone like a rhinoceros. / (From Snp 103) #99005 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 3:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path truth_aerator Hi Jon and Howard, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/8/2009 4:49:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, j > onabbott@... writes: > >Both samatha and vipassana are developed by the arising of >previously accumulated samatha and vipassana. > ============================ >Do you realize that this speaks of infinite regress? > > With metta, > Howard > Not only infinite regress, but an impossibility as well. How would you be able to start that process? It is almost saying that "I'll do this only when I have sufficient accumulations at it" and "before I am good at it, I will not try, not even once." With metta, Alex #99006 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 3:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Samadhi -> yathabhutananadassana & definition of DSG "non-doing"2 kenhowardau Hi Howard, --------- <. . .> KH: >> think we all act quite a lot of the time without a sense of self interposed. But perhaps you mean acting with right understanding. >> H: > :-) No, I actually meant what I said. --------- Yes, quite right. Alex was asking about the 'non-doing' that he assumed non-meditators to be talking about. In fact they don't 't talk about non-doing at all. However, as you rightly point out, some other people do talk about it. Wu-wei meditators, for example. -------------------- KH: >> Even then, however, I can't imagine how there could be such a thing. Acting is a concept. Panna arises only with a paramattha dhamma as its object, never with a concept. (Unless it's a concept of a paramattha dhamma.) H: > So is "concept" a concept! So stop talking about it! ;-)) -------------------- I could just as well ask you to stop doing what you're doing. But there is no control. Only dhammas. :-) Ken H #99007 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 12:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Jon - and also Ken at the end) - In a message dated 7/8/2009 6:12:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Jon and Howard, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/8/2009 4:49:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, j > onabbott@... writes: > >Both samatha and vipassana are developed by the arising of >previously accumulated samatha and vipassana. > ============================ >Do you realize that this speaks of infinite regress? > > With metta, > Howard > Not only infinite regress, but an impossibility as well. How would you be able to start that process? ----------------------------------------------- Exactly my point. :-) ----------------------------------------------- It is almost saying that "I'll do this only when I have sufficient accumulations at it" and "before I am good at it, I will not try, not even once." -------------------------------------------- Yes, and the bottom line on this is, no matter how often disputed, is that awakening is a matter of pure luck, or, at best, starting the ball rolling by hearing the Dhamma from someone else who awakened by sheer luck! The bottom line is that the Buddha might just as well have never spent so much time talking about kamma, because volition is not volition - it's something nobody has ever witnessed. ------------------------------------------ With metta, Alex =========================== With metta, Howard P. S. to Ken: Look, Ken, in the following the Buddha is talking about ACTIONS! Kamma /"A fool is characterized by his/her actions. A wise person is characterized by his/her actions. It's through the activities of one's life that one's discernment shines. "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a fool. Which three? Bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct... "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a wise person. Which three? Good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct... "Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will avoid the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a fool. We will undertake & maintain the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a wise person.' That's how you should train yourselves."/ (From Anguttara Nikaya 3.2) #99008 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 5:31 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation nichiconn Hi Howard, #99004 Jon: The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the Buddha, as far as I know. c: from Gogerly's translation of the Dhammapada: 188. Truly many persons under the influence of fear seek for refuge in mountains, or in forests, or in gardens, or in the trees of a grove. 189. But this refuge imparts not peace; this refuge is not supreme; this refuge delivers not those who flee to it from all sorrow, 190. But those who take refuge in Buddha, in his doctrine, and in the associated priesthood, will perceive distinctly the Four Great Truths: 191. Of sorrow and of its producing cause, of the cause of its destruction and of the eight-sectioned path leading to its extinction. 192. That refuge is peaceful; that refuge is supreme He who flees to it escapes from all sorrow. peace, connie #99009 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and Jon) - In a message dated 7/8/2009 8:32:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Hi Howard, #99004 Jon: The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the Buddha, as far as I know. c: from Gogerly's translation of the Dhammapada: 188. Truly many persons under the influence of fear seek for refuge in mountains, or in forests, or in gardens, or in the trees of a grove. 189. But this refuge imparts not peace; this refuge is not supreme; this refuge delivers not those who flee to it from all sorrow, 190. But those who take refuge in Buddha, in his doctrine, and in the associated priesthood, will perceive distinctly the Four Great Truths: 191. Of sorrow and of its producing cause, of the cause of its destruction and of the eight-sectioned path leading to its extinction. 192. That refuge is peaceful; that refuge is supreme He who flees to it escapes from all sorrow. peace, connie =============================== Well, of course, Connie. But physical seclusion to do the right thing is important. Analogously, it is good and important to eat, but it should be healthful food, not junk.; With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #99010 From: han tun Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Physical Phenomena (31) hantun1 --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Dr. Han Tun wrote: From: Dr. Han Tun Subject: [dsg] Physical Phenomena (31) To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 9:27 AM Physical Phenomena (31) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas): continuation. Questions and comments are welcome. ------------ -------- Eyesense seems to last and we are inclined to take it for "self". It seems that the same eyesense keeps on performing its function as a condition for seeing which also seems to last. However, eyesense arises and then falls away. At the next moment of seeing another eyesense has arisen. All these eyesenses are produced by kamma, throughout our life. We may find it hard to grasp this truth because we are so used to thinking of "my eyesense" and to consider it as something lasting. The eyesense is extremely small, "no bigger in size than the head of a louse", but it seems that the whole wide world comes to us through the eye. All that is visible is experienced through the eyesense, but when we believe that we see the world, there is thinking of a concept, not the experience of visible object. Our thinking is conditioned by seeing and by all the other sense-impressions. The eye is compared to an ocean [Note 5], because it cannot be filled, it is unsatiable. We are attached to the eyesense and we want to go on seeing, it never is enough. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (IV, Sa.laayatana- vagga, Fourth Fifty, Ch 3, 228, The Ocean) [Note 6]: "... The eye, bhikkhus, is the ocean for a person; its current consists of forms. One who withstands that current consisting of forms is said to have crossed the ocean of the eye with its waves, whirlpools, sharks and demons. Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground." The same is said with regard to the other senses. [Note 5] Dhammasanga. nii 597. Atthasaalinii II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 308. [Note 6] I used the translation by Ven. Bodhi, "The Connected Discourses of the Buddha". "Form" is his translation of ruupa, which is actually visible object. ------------ -------- Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas) to be continued. with metta, Han #99011 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 6:22 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (32) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (32) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas): continuation. Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ We read in the "Thergaathaa" (Psalms of the Sisters, Canto XIV, 71, Subhaa of Jvaka's Mango-grove) that the Ther Subhaa became an anaagaam [Note 7]; she had eradicated clinging to sense objects. A young man, infatuated with the beauty of her eyes, wanted to tempt her. She warned him not to be deluded by the outward appearance of things. In reality there are only elements devoid of self. The Ther said about her eye (vs. 395): "What is this eye but a little ball lodged in the fork of a hollow tree, Bubble of film, anointed with tear-brine, exuding slime-drops. Compost wrought in the shape of an eye of manyfold aspects?...." The Ther extracted one of her eyes and handed it to him. The impact of her lesson did not fail to cure the young man of his lust. Later on, in the presence of the Buddha, her eye was restored to her. She continued to develop insight and attained arahatship. Eyesense is only an element devoid of self. It is one of the conditions for seeing. The "Visuddhimagga" (XV, 39) states about the conditions for seeing: "Eye-consciousness arises due to eye, visible object, light and attention". [Note 7] There are four stages of enlightenment. The angm or "non-returner" has reached the third stage. The arahat has reached the last stage. ------------------------------ Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas) to be continued. with metta, Han #99012 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 6:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Connie (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 7/8/2009 8:32:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > nichicon@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > #99004 > > Jon: The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by > the Buddha, as far as I know. > > c: from Gogerly's translation of the Dhammapada: > > 188. Truly many persons under the influence of fear seek for refuge in > mountains, or in forests, or in gardens, or in the trees of a grove. > 189. But this refuge imparts not peace; this refuge is not supreme; this > refuge delivers not those who flee to it from all sorrow, > 190. But those who take refuge in Buddha, in his doctrine, and in the > associated priesthood, will perceive distinctly the Four Great Truths: > 191. Of sorrow and of its producing cause, of the cause of its destruction > and of the eight-sectioned path leading to its extinction. > 192. That refuge is peaceful; that refuge is supreme He who flees to it > escapes from all sorrow. > > > > peace, > connie > =============================== > Well, of course, Connie. But physical seclusion to do the right thing > is important. Analogously, it is good and important to eat, but it should > be healthful food, not junk.; > > With metta, > Howard > > Hello Howard, Connie, Jon, and all, "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. "Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and anxiety, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and anxiety. Abandoning uncertainty, he dwells having crossed over uncertainty, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of uncertainty. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html Whatever a teacher should do " seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them " that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, Ananda. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you all." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.152.than.html So it would be contradictory for Buddha to criticize seclusion only then to ask his disciples to go into one. The difference is in following the N8P path. With metta, Alex #99013 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 6:05 pm Subject: The 7 Core Contemplations! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: These 7 Contemplations Penetrates to Insight: 1: When contemplating Impermanence (anicca ), one gradually overcomes the false perception of permanence... 2: When contemplating Suffering (dukkha ), one gradually overcomes the fake experience of happiness... 3: When contemplating Selflessness (anatta ), one gradually overcomes the self-deception of ego-identity... 4: When contemplating Disgust (nibbidā ), one gradually overcomes the deceitfulness inherent in all delight... 5: When contemplating Disillusion (virāga ), one gradually overcomes the illusion of the mere appearance... 6: When contemplating Ceasing (nirodha ), one gradually overcomes the naivety of planning any origination... 7: When contemplating Relinquishment (patinissagga ), one gradually overcomes the panic of all clinging ... ... Have a nicely contemplated day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The 7 Core Contemplations! #99014 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 8:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------- <. . .> A: > Look, Ken, in the following the Buddha is talking about ACTIONS! Kamma /"A fool is characterized by his/her actions. A wise person is characterized by his/her actions. It's through the activities of one's life that one's discernment shines. "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a fool. Which three? Bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct... "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a wise person. Which three? Good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct... "Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will avoid the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a fool. We will undertake & maintain the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a wise person.' That's how you should train yourselves."/ -------- Thanks, Alex, but, as I will never tire of telling you, the Buddha taught anatta. How, in the light of anatta, are we to understand the conventional-language sutta you have quoted? If there is really no wise person, no foolish person, no person of any kind? And no actions (in the conventional sense) either? That is the question you must ask! Until you are looking for the answer to it you are wasting your time reading and quoting suttas. Ken H #99015 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 8:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation philofillet Hi all interested in this topic of physical vs. mental seclusion. I'm studying a bilingual edition of Dhammapada with a lot of commentarial material included and found this note on verse 75 which ends with vivekam anubruuhaye. (let him cherish disengagement.) The translators (Carter and Palihawdana) use a lot of unusual word choices (disengagement? substrates?) but I'll just type it out as it is: (Dhammapada, Carter and Palihawdana, Oxford, p.160) "Let him develop disengagement such as physical disengagement. Here physical disengagement is solitude physically; mental disengagement means the eight attainments; disengagements from the substrates is Nibanada. Of these three, phystical disengagement dispels [the harms accruing from] attachment to company; mental disengagement dispels attachements to the defilements; disengagement from substrates dispels the [state of] being attached to the sankharas. Physical disengagement is the condition necessary for mental disengagement, and mental disengagement is the condition that is necessary for disengagement from substrates. It has been said: 'Physical disengagement is a quality of those who are physically withdrawn [from the crowd of humans] who delight in detachment. Metnal disengagement is of those with pure thoughts, who have arrived at the highest purity {of mind]. Disengagements from substrates is of persons who are free of all attachments, who are liberated from the sankharas.' So let his develop and increase this threefold disengagement; let him arrive at that and live therein. This is the meaning." I will for once abstain from editorializing and let the passage speak for itself in its crystal clear, irrefutable message that "physical disengagement is the condition necessary for mental disengagement." And I will add no further comment to the teaching that mental solitude is conditional on the attainments of "those with pure thoughts who have arrived at the highest purity of mind." I mean my God how much clearer can it be people!!!!! wink wink. metta, phil #99016 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 8:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path philofillet Hi Ken and all > Thanks, Alex, but, as I will never tire of telling you, the Buddha > taught anatta. How, in the light of anatta, are we to understand the > conventional-language sutta you have quoted? If there is really no wise > person, no foolish person, no person of any kind? And no actions (in the > conventional sense) either? It's an interesting question. Not time for it yet, but at some point I hope I can discuss it thouroughly and thoughtfully. For now let me say that the teachings *do* place an emphasis on conventional action, Ken, some day you will understand that. (Reading the Dhammapada with commentary would be a good place to start.) But I agree with you that it is a bit of a mindtwister to understand why the Buddha did teach about the value of conventional actions when he also taught deep teachings about annata. I think it has to do with the way doing conventional actions as recommended by the Buddha or abstaining from them in ways recommended by the Buddha conditions the development of dhammas that are helpful for and the wasting away of dhammas that hinder in the development of the understanding that *really* understands that there are only nama and rupa (instead of just saying that there are only nama and rupa without any actual insight into that fact.) Metta, Phil p.s Just dropping in, Ken, so won't add any more. But I continue to hope we will discuss properly someday. I have constantly failed to discuss Dhamma properly, it is a shortcoming on my part. p.p.s I was very encouraged a few weeks back to see several people acknowledge that not every word in the tipitaka is about satipatthana and "understanding presenly arisen realities" etc. Hopefully you will soon be the last person clinging to that incorrect opinion, and hopefully you will someday drop it too! But not holding my breath on that one, Ken! :) #99017 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 8:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path philofillet Hi again Ken and all In my previous post (not arrived yet) I wondered why the Buddha would feature so many teachings about conventional actions and yet teach the deep teachings of anatta, emptiness etc. After posting I recalled what I posted to Mike a few weeks back. And it's a very important point to keep in mind. ***The Buddha did not teach the teachings particular to the Buddha until he knew that the listener's mind was prepared for them*** We can see this in the sutta about the leper, and others. So he would teach in conventional terms. He knew that if he taught the deep teachings to people (so to speak) with minds not ready for them, it would not be beneficial. In today's age we are usually very happy through our attachment to making progress to leap a.s.a.p to the deep teachings, but we should keep in mind that this was not the way the Buddha taught. I'm sure you've heard that before and will have some way around it, as I will always have ways around what you say. Our attachments give us lots of ways around listening to the truth and to listening carefully to contrary opinions to determine if there is any truth in them... Metta, Phil Metta, Phil > Thanks, Alex, but, as I will never tire of telling you, the Buddha > taught anatta. How, in the light of anatta, are we to understand the > conventional-language sutta you have quoted? If there is really no wise > person, no foolish person, no person of any kind? And no actions (in the > conventional sense) either? > > That is the question you must ask! Until you are looking for the answer > to it you are wasting your time reading and quoting suttas. > > Ken H > #99018 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 9:17 pm Subject: Apology for wrong speech philofillet Hi all I apologize for my latest troll-like appearance. I didn't use harsh speech or commit wrong speech in the ways defined by the Buddha, but I think posting opinions and not reading the responses must be related to wrong speech. (Imagine a bhikkhu in the Buddha's day expressing an opinion, then turning away and covering his ears. Surely he would get a whack from the Buddha for that.) Anyways, the incidence is decreasing, as you know. It takes time to weed out wrong behaviour in body, speech and mind, but one does feel encouraged when one sees progress! So until the next troll mini-outburst, probably a few weeks or months away...and in the hope that real discussion will be possible for me someday! (I am still fighting to stay off the internet so avoid activities that require a lot of time online - thus my reluctance to get caught up in discussion - but can't resist having my say now and then. So much passionate enthusiasm for Dhamma these days!) Metta, Phil #99019 From: "connie" Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 9:42 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation nichiconn Hi Phil! Hope things are going well for you. I was just reading an old post to you, Alex & Tep from Sarah that relates to this seclusion question: #82529 Wife as object of awareness .. developed body .. Might be worth a look if you're still hanging around. I was going to quote from the Expositor as Sarah's Vism quote* leads there, but it's pretty long. peace, connie *S: Now in the Visuddhimagga, Ch IV, under 'The First Jhana', there is quite a lot of detail about 'bodily seclusion' and 'mental seclusion'. In brief, it says (#83): "...the words 'quite secluded from sense desires' properly mean 'quite secluded from sense desires as object', and express bodily seclusion, while the words 'secluded from unprofitable things' properly mean 'secluded from sense desires as defilement or from all unprofitable things', and express mental seclusion. And in this case giving up of pleasure in sense desires is indicated by the first since it only expresses seclusion from sense desires as object, while acquisition of pleasure in renunciation is indicated by the second since it expresses seclusion from sense desire as defilement." #99020 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 8, 2009 11:36 pm Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 9. nilovg Dear friends. It is useful to know the different aspects of clear comprehension, sati-sampajaa: clear comprehension with regard to the purpose, with regard to what is suitable, with regard to the object of sati and clear comprehension of non-delusion. However, while right understanding is being developed we do not have to try to pinpoint which kind of sampajaa arises. It is sati-sampajaa, not self, which knows the purpose of the development of the Eightfold Path, the eradication of defilements. It is sati-sampajaa which knows the right conditions which are suitable for the development of right understanding. In the beginning one still doubts whether there can be awareness in any situation, one limits the field of sati, and thus there cannot yet be non-delusion about the object of awareness. You think that there are particular factors which can hinder awareness, such as our working situation or the company of other people. The place where we are, the people we meet, noise, travelling, sickness, all these factors are not impediments for satipatthna. Wrong understanding of the path is a hindrance. In the Visuddhimagga (III, 29) we read about the ten impediments. These are: dwelling, family, gain, class (students), building, travel, relatives, affliction (sickness), books and super-normal powers. As regards dwelling, for those who cultivate samatha the dwelling is only an impediment if it distracts one or if one has many belongings stored there. As regards family, this refers to relatives or a family of supporters who present food or other requisites to the monk. They can be distracting from the development of calm. As regards gain, this means here the four requisites of the monk. If he receives requisites from people all the time, he has to give them blessings and teach them Dhamma. In this way he will be engaged continuously. Class means students of suttas or students of Abhidhamma. If the monk has to teach students he has no opportunity for the development of samatha. Building means the construction of a building. This is always an impediment for samatha since one is engaged in seeing to the work. Travel is an impediment for samatha since ones thoughts are occupied with the journey. With the impediment of relatives is also meant the monks teacher or pupil or others he is dwelling together with. If they are sick they are an impediment for samatha since they preoccupy him. Affliction is any kind of illness. It is an impediment when it causes suffering. As regards books, this is responsibility for the scriptures, or recitation of the scriptures. When he is engaged with these matters it will distract him from the development of samatha. It is said that nine of the ten impediments are hindrances only for samatha. They distract one from its cultivation. As regards the tenth impediment, which are the supernatural powers of the non-ariyan, this is not a hindrance for samatha. We read in the Visuddhimagga (III, 56) about the super-normal powers: They are hard to maintain, like a prone infant or like a baby hare, and the slightest thing breaks them. But they are an impediment for insight, not for concentration, since they are obtainable through concentration. So the supernormal powers are an impediment that should be severed by one who seeks insight; the others are impediments to be severed by one who seeks concentration. By these examples one sees that the method and aim of samatha is different from the method and aim of vipassan. ******* Nina. #99021 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 12:25 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (22-23) , sutta 22 and commentary. Part I. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 22:Walshe DN 33.1.11(22) 'Four more kinds of progress: progress with impatience (akkhamaa pa.tipadaa), (b) patient progress (khamaa p.), (c) controlled progress (damaa p.), (d) calm progress (samaa pa.tipadaa). (Aparaapi catasso pa.tipadaa - akkhamaa pa.tipadaa, khamaa pa.tipadaa, damaa pa.tipadaa, samaa pa.tipadaa.) ---------- N: pa.tipadaa is translated here as progress, but it can also be translated as practice. Co: as to (a): with impatience: at the time of arousing an effort he cannot endure thirst etc. That is impatience. subco: as to: he does not endure thirst etc., this was said in connection with the first period of his practice (pubbabhaagakaala). N: He is a beginner and he has to learn with sati and pa~n~naa that the experience of thirst, gadflies etc. and other unpleasant objects are merely vipaaka, conditioned by former kamma. When he learns that there are only naama and ruupa, no self, he will be more patient. He understands that whatever he experiences is conditioned. (b):Patient practice: the subco states that he overcomes and conquers impatience. (c): Controlled practice, the co mentions the control of the faculties, indriyas, (indriya damaa). -------- N: There is no self who controls, but sati guards the six doorways through which objects are experienced. Very often akusala cittas arise on account of the objects that present themselves through the six doorways, but sati is heedful, non-forgetful of kusala and it prevents the arising of akusala citta. When sati of the level of satipatthaana arises, there is kusala citta with mindfulness of visible object or sound as mere ruupas, no persons or things. At such moments understanding of realities can develop. -------- (d): re: calm practice, samaa pa.tipadaa, the co: he does not give in (naadhivaaseti) to sensuous thinking that has arisen, and this is the suppression of akusala vitakka, thinking. The subco states that vitakka is merely given as an example. The calm practice refers to the overcoming of all defilements. -------- N: The arahat has eradicated all defilements and this is the greatest calm. All day long sensuous thinking arises, we are attached to all sense objects. They seem to last, but they are only elements that arise because of the concurrence of several conditions and then fall away immediately. The text states about patient practice. We need a great deal of patience to listen to the Dhamma again and again. That is the way for understanding to develop. Each time we may understand a little more and in this way pa~n~naa accumulates and grows. Pa~n~naa can reach the level of direct understanding of realities when the stages of insight are reached. It can reach maturity so that enlightenment can be attained. ******* Pali co: Akkhamaadiisu padhaanakara.nakaale siitaadiini na khamatiiti akkhamaa. Khamatiiti khamaa. Indriyadamana.m damaa. Uppanna.m kaamavitakka.m naadhivaasetiitiaadinaa nayena vitakkasamana.m samaa. ---------- Nina. #99022 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex) - In a message dated 7/8/2009 11:17:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Alex, ---------------------------------------- Ken, it's me (Howard) you are quoting. You have the wrong bundle of "realities"!! ----------------------------------------- ------- <. . .> A: > Look, Ken, in the following the Buddha is talking about ACTIONS! Kamma /"A fool is characterized by his/her actions. A wise person is characterized by his/her actions. It's through the activities of one's life that one's discernment shines. "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a fool. Which three? Bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct... "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a wise person. Which three? Good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct... "Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will avoid the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a fool. We will undertake & maintain the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a wise person.' That's how you should train yourselves."/ -------- Thanks, Alex, but, as I will never tire of telling you, the Buddha taught anatta. How, in the light of anatta, are we to understand the conventional-language sutta you have quoted? If there is really no wise person, no foolish person, no person of any kind? And no actions (in the conventional sense) either? --------------------------------------------------- Take it up with the Buddha, Ken, not me. BTW, a physicist knows that where we see a chair, there are only atoms. Yet he sits down too! ---------------------------------------------------- That is the question you must ask! ----------------------------------------------------- Were I confused, I'd ask a question. I'm not. ------------------------------------------------------ Until you are looking for the answer to it you are wasting your time reading and quoting suttas. ---------------------------------------------------- Ken, sometimes it's useful to consider one's own conceit. ----------------------------------------------------- Ken H ================================ With metta, Howard Kamma /"A fool is characterized by his/her actions. A wise person is characterized by his/her actions. It's through the activities of one's life that one's discernment shines. "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a fool. Which three? Bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct... "A person endowed with three things is to be recognized as a wise person. Which three? Good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct... "Thus, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will avoid the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a fool. We will undertake & maintain the three things that, endowed with which, one is to be recognized as a wise person.' That's how you should train yourselves."/ (From Anguttara Nikaya 3.2) #99023 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 7/9/2009 12:23:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi all interested in this topic of physical vs. mental seclusion. I'm studying a bilingual edition of Dhammapada with a lot of commentarial material included and found this note on verse 75 which ends with vivekam anubruuhaye. (let him cherish disengagement.) The translators (Carter and Palihawdana) use a lot of unusual word choices (disengagement? substrates?) but I'll just type it out as it is: (Dhammapada, Carter and Palihawdana, Oxford, p.160) "Let him develop disengagement such as physical disengagement. Here physical disengagement is solitude physically; mental disengagement means the eight attainments; disengagements from the substrates is Nibanada. Of these three, phystical disengagement dispels [the harms accruing from] attachment to company; mental disengagement dispels attachements to the defilements; disengagement from substrates dispels the [state of] being attached to the sankharas. Physical disengagement is the condition necessary for mental disengagement, and mental disengagement is the condition that is necessary for disengagement from substrates. It has been said: 'Physical disengagement is a quality of those who are physically withdrawn [from the crowd of humans] who delight in detachment. Metnal disengagement is of those with pure thoughts, who have arrived at the highest purity {of mind]. Disengagements from substrates is of persons who are free of all attachments, who are liberated from the sankharas.' So let his develop and increase this threefold disengagement; let him arrive at that and live therein. This is the meaning." I will for once abstain from editorializing and let the passage speak for itself in its crystal clear, irrefutable message that "physical disengagement is the condition necessary for mental disengagement." And I will add no further comment to the teaching that mental solitude is conditional on the attainments of "those with pure thoughts who have arrived at the highest purity of mind." I mean my God how much clearer can it be people!!!!! wink wink. metta, phil ============================== In my opinion, it doesn't matter *how* clear matters are to one whose mind is made up. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99024 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 6:21 am Subject: Re: e-card from Italy 5a - discussion topics with Alberto sukinderpal Hi Sarah and Alberto, [Btw, Sukin - A. doesn't have a hard copy of 'Survey' - is there still one left in Bkk to send to him?] Yes I do have a few copies with me and would very gladly send one to Alberto or anyone else. So Alberto, please send me your postal address offlist. Metta, Sukin #99025 From: "connie" Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 8:50 am Subject: 1st Jhaana Qu. nichiconn Dear Meditation Faction, Is it true that there are 34 mental factors involved in first jhaana? Would you mind telling me what they are? thanks, connie #99026 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 5:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 1st Jhaana Qu. upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 7/9/2009 11:51:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Dear Meditation Faction, Is it true that there are 34 mental factors involved in first jhaana? Would you mind telling me what they are? thanks, connie =========================== :-) Are you looking to speak with meditators or scholars? With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99027 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 6:49 am Subject: Follow-up Re: [dsg] 1st Jhaana Qu. upasaka_howard Hi again, Connie - In a message dated 7/9/2009 12:16:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, Connie - In a message dated 7/9/2009 11:51:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Dear Meditation Faction, Is it true that there are 34 mental factors involved in first jhaana? Would you mind telling me what they are? thanks, connie =========================== :-) Are you looking to speak with meditators or scholars? With metta, Howard ============================== Replying a bit more seriously: I've heard of 5 jhana factors, and I don't know about 34. But, seriously, this is something to look up somewhere, not to ask an ordinary meditator about. There was only once that I was certain of having attained jhanas (briefly), and what I experienced following upon "applied and sustained thought" were joy, rapture, and overwhelming calm. Included also was an apparent nimitta that led into the states, and then, along with the rapture, joy, and calm, an experience of infinite space filled with light. Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99028 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 11:56 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: effort. Buddha quotes. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 8-jul-2009, om 22:40 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > N: First there must be intellectual understanding of the dhammas > >that appear all the time in daily life. > > I agree with the above, and I don't remember when I've ever said > that one doesn't need at least someintellectual understanding. One > certainly does need to know, at least some things, at least some > basic knowledge of Dhamma. Sure. It is just that one should NOT > stop there. Intellectual knowledge is good, but it is not enough. ------- N: We agree. I just indicated a condition for directly knowing realities. --------- > > A:Another thing: How much of intellectual knowledge is enough and > how much is too much? ------- N: It entirely depends on the individual how much he will listen, consider, discuss, understand. No rule. ------- > > A: > > So one needs to study, without practicing, and the practice will > arise all by itself? Is that what you've said? -------- N: While one studies there can also be practice, that is, mindfulness of nama and rupa is not to be excluded. It can arise at any time, because of its own conditions. For example, one listen to a Dhamma talk, or speaks about the Dhamma, and awareness cannot be prevented from arising when the conditions are there. -------- > > A: I consider the methodical and intentional study as possibly an > analytic practice that builds up proper attention that eventually > will see things. What you have described sounds almost like a form > of of analytic practice. ----- N: It is important to know the difference between a moment of thinking of nama and rupa and a moment of awareness. These are different moments. I quote something I wrote before: ------- > > A: I do question the necessity of a very scholastic & detailed > analysis. > I mean ALL things are anicca-dukkha-anatta and should be gradually > let go off. It almost seems unnecessery to break up everything in > 121 cittas, 52 (or so) cetasikas, 28 rupa as so on ------ N: As to the penetration of anicca, dukkha and anatta, we have to know: anicca, dukkha and anatta *of which reality*. These are not abstractions, they always pertain to this or that reality. But I think you know this. Seeing is anatta, but first let us know seeing. It only experiences visible object or colour, no person. It is already difficult to know seeing. I think we should not look ahead so much to the three characteristics which can only be penetrated later on. We do not have to point at 121 cittas etc. A foundation knowledge can help to have more understanding of the reality that appears. No need to count rupas and cittas and try to know all these dhammas. No scholastic analysis, it is just a support. Again, it depends on the individual how much he will study. -------- > > A: AS LONG AS ONE CONSISTENTLY APPLIES triple characteristic to all > and practices at letting go. -------- N: The letting go is Pa~n~na's task. Detachment comes about by more and more understanding. > > -------- > A: If a monk understands the meaning and the text of Dhamma- even > if it be but a stanza of four lines-and be set on living in > accordance with the dhamma, he may be called "one widely learnt, > who knows Dhamma by heart.". > AN ii, iv, xix, 186 Vi (186) Approach ------ N: Very good text. living in accordance with the dhamma: not being forgetful of all the realities that appear already all day long. Not just book knowledge. ----- Nina. #99029 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 12:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Alex (99001) > =============== > Which people achieved Arahatship not in those situation? > > A)Please list them and give sutta (or even Comy) sources. I do not have a list handy. Two examples would be Anathapindika and Upali (for the latter, see MN 50-something). > =============== > As I remember correctly the Commentaries (VsM?) states that if a layperson achieved stages of awakening at home, they did it because they had accumulations from their time as a monk who did ascetic practices. > =============== I've never come across such a comment. Please give a reference if you can. > =============== > B) Please prove that they have not had physical retreat or seclusion at home nor they have fullfilled these factors in their previous lives. > =============== I would suspect that everybody has had physical seclusion and jhana in some previous life or another. But the question we're discussing is whether, according to the teachings, the development of insight cannot begin unless mundane jhana has first been attained. > =============== > It may be possible that "Arahant while cooking" events had a LOT OF accumulations from their previous lives. > =============== Yes, undoubtedly. Accumulations of awareness/insight. > =============== > > This is another sutta dealing with a particular "case where", > > How do you know that it is a "particular case"? > =============== I'm referring to the particular case described by the words: "There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect." > =============== The sutta doesn't say that physical seclusion is optional. > =============== The question is the meaning of this term "kaya viveka", literally "seclusion of the body", whether it means mere physical seclusion or whether it refers to samatha bhavana leading to (i.e., preceding) jhana. > =============== > Jon, do you understand what it says under > "And what more is to be done?" ??? > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html > =============== My point is that the "things to be done" are not the kaya-viveka but are, in the case of the monk who has achieved kaya-viveka, the abandoning of covetousness and ill-will, etc. Please consider whether this accords with the wording of the sutta. Jon #99030 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 12:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path jonoabb Hi Howard (99003) > =============== > Both samatha and vipassana are developed by the arising of previously > accumulated samatha and vipassana. > ============================ > Do you realize that this speaks of infinite regress? I suppose it depends on one's definition of infinite regress, but at the moment I don't see how infinite regress could be involved in that statement. Jon An infinite regress in a series of propositions arises if the truth of proposition P1 requires the support of proposition P2, and for any proposition in the series Pn, the truth of Pn requires the support of the truth of Pn+1. There would never be adequate support for P1, because the infinite sequence needed to provide such support could not be completed. Distinction is made between infinite regresses that are "vicious" and those that are not. One definition given is that a vicious regress is "an attempt to solve a problem which re-introduced the same problem in the proposed solution. If one continues along the same lines, the initial problem will recur infinitely and will never be solved. Not all regresses, however, are vicious." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_regress #99031 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 12:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Howard (99004) > =============== > > Viveka > > 'detachment', seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: > > * (1) bodily detachment (kÄ�ya-viveka), i.e. abiding in > solitude free > > from alluring sensuous objects; > > =============== > > Thanks for this. I wonder what is the basis/source for the opinions > expressed by the two compilers? Without knowing that, it's difficult to comment. > --------------------------------------------------------- > The bottom line, Jon, is that you believe what you wish to believe. > What of the Niddesa? Do you suppose that the Ven. Nyanatiloka is falsely > attributing? Unfortunataly, he's no longer around to check with. > ------------------------------------------------------- I read the explanation of "abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects" as referring mainly to the mental state of being "free from alluring sensuous objects", rather than to physical seclusion per se. And it is no doubt the usual case that those who attain jhana do so while living a life of certain physical solitude. But I do not see it as a case of physical seclusion being suggested as a means to attaining a particular mental state. > =============== > The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the > Buddha, as far as I know. > -------------------------------------------- > Well, Jon, we must have read different nikayas. > --------------------------------------------- No, I'm fairly sure the physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the Buddha. Jon #99032 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 12:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Phil (99015) > =============== > Physical disengagement is the condition necessary for mental disengagement, and mental disengagement is the condition that is necessary for disengagement from substrates. It has been said: 'Physical disengagement is a quality of those who are physically withdrawn [from the crowd of humans] who delight in detachment. > =============== The qualification "who delight in detachment" is key here. The tendency to physical seclusion of the person who delights in detachment is what is being spoken of, not the seeking of physical seclusion for its own sake. > =============== Metnal disengagement is of those with pure thoughts, who have arrived at the highest purity {of mind]. Disengagements from substrates is of persons who are free of all attachments, who are liberated from the sankharas.' > So let his develop and increase this threefold disengagement; let him arrive at that and live therein. This is the meaning." > > I will for once abstain from editorializing and let the passage speak for itself in its crystal clear, irrefutable message that "physical disengagement is the condition necessary for mental disengagement." > =============== Yes, physical disengagement as defined, namely, "a quality of those who are physically withdrawn [from the crowd of humans] who delight in detachment". Jon #99033 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 9:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/9/2009 3:48:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (99004) > =============== > > Viveka > > 'detachment', seclusion, is according to Niddesa, of 3 kinds: > > * (1) bodily detachment (kÄ�ya-viveka), i.e. abiding in > solitude free > > from alluring sensuous objects; > > =============== > > Thanks for this. I wonder what is the basis/source for the opinions > expressed by the two compilers? Without knowing that, it's difficult to comment. > --------------------------------------------------------- > The bottom line, Jon, is that you believe what you wish to believe. > What of the Niddesa? Do you suppose that the Ven. Nyanatiloka is falsely > attributing? Unfortunataly, he's no longer around to check with. > ------------------------------------------------------- I read the explanation of "abiding in solitude free from alluring sensuous objects" as referring mainly to the mental state of being "free from alluring sensuous objects", rather than to physical seclusion per se. -------------------------------------------------- Of course you do. As I said, you believe what you wish to believe. ------------------------------------------ And it is no doubt the usual case that those who attain jhana do so while living a life of certain physical solitude. But I do not see it as a case of physical seclusion being suggested as a means to attaining a particular mental state. ------------------------------------------- It is an important support, Jon, mentioned again and again throughout the suttas. It is also obviously valid. ------------------------------------------- > =============== > The physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the > Buddha, as far as I know. > -------------------------------------------- > Well, Jon, we must have read different nikayas. > --------------------------------------------- No, I'm fairly sure the physical seclusion of holders of other views was not praised by the Buddha. ------------------------------------------------- My mistake, Jon. I read too quickly what you wrote here. On this point you may well be correct. What one does when in seclusion is, of course, crucial. ------------------------------------------------ Jon ======================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99034 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 2:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Phil > > (99015) > > =============== > > Physical disengagement is the condition necessary for mental disengagement, and mental disengagement is the condition that is necessary for disengagement from substrates. It has been said: 'Physical disengagement is a quality of those who are physically withdrawn [from the crowd of humans] who delight in detachment. > > =============== > > The qualification "who delight in detachment" is key here. The tendency to physical seclusion of the person who delights in detachment is what is being spoken of, not the seeking of physical seclusion for its own sake. > But Jon, what have I been saying? Of course the physical solitude is done WITH WISDOM. It IS done for the sake of accruing more wisdom through meditation. Re: > =============== > Which people achieved Arahatship not in those situation? > > A)Please list them and give sutta (or even Comy) sources. >Jon: I do not have a list handy. Two examples would be Anathapindika >and Upali (for the latter, see MN 50-something). They became stream enterers. Not Arhants. >jon:I would suspect that everybody has had physical seclusion and >jhana in some previous life or another. How do you know? If we have done good enough job in the past, we wouldn't be here. >But the question we're >discussing is whether, according to the >teachings, the development >of insight cannot begin unless mundane >jhana has first been attained. Where did the suttas talk about "mundane" and where "supermundane" jhana? And what are these terms supposed to mean anyways? Jhana IS part of the path, and physical seclusion is helpful for it. >Jon: My point is that the "things to be done" are not the kaya-viveka but are, in the case of the monk who has achieved kaya-viveka, the abandoning of covetousness and ill-will, etc. Please consider whether this accords with the wording of the sutta. >>> But there are things to be done, right? If not, then what point is it to follow Buddha's teaching if one isn't supposed to do anything? It is a condition that negates the living of holy life: "No one can do anything, everything is fully determined with no personal effort capable of doing anything". MN76 With metta, Alex #99035 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 4:04 pm Subject: Q: Can one exit samsara faster truth_aerator Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply. >Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Dear Alex, > ------- > N: It entirely depends on the individual how much he will listen, > consider, discuss, understand. No rule. > -------- > N: While one studies there can also be practice, that is, >mindfulness of nama and rupa is not to be excluded. It can arise at >any time, because of its own conditions. For example, one listen to >a Dhamma talk, or speaks about the Dhamma, and awareness cannot be >prevented from arising when the conditions are there. > -------- > Nina. A question: Can a person make any effort to realize Nibbana quicker? Or it is all due to causes & conditions (accumulations) and nothing can be done to make the progress quicker or slower. Please answer. With metta, Alex #99036 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 4:23 pm Subject: Kasina Absorption! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Absorption into a Kasina is Also Transient! The Blessed Buddha once said: There are ten kasina spheres, Bhikkhus. And which are these? Someone perceives solid earth as his kasina, above, below, round about, undivided, as entirety, infinite, without boundaries, ends or limits. Again, someone perceives fluid water as his kasina ... or fire ... or wind ... or blue ... or yellow ... or red ... or white ... or space ... or consciousness, above, below, round about, undivided, as entirety, infinite, without boundaries, ends or limits. These are the subtle ten kasina spheres... Consciousness above, below, all around about, undivided, as entirety, infinite, without boundaries, ends or limits is considered as the very highest of these kasina spheres. There are beings dwelling in such subtle perceptions, however even these high aloof beings experience impermanence and change! Understanding this, any wise and Noble disciple turns away from it. By turning all away from it, he thereby detaches from the highest, how much more so from all lower states!!! Comments on these Elements perceived as 'Entirety' or 'Wholeness': Kasina meditation is a mental absorption gained into a unity aspect: 'Earth' here does not mean a substance, but solidity and extension. 'Water' here neither means a substance, but fluidity and cohesion. 'Fire' here neither means a substance, but heat and vibration. 'Wind' or 'air' here means motion and kinetic energy. The unity aspect is thus not 'material', but a quality or property. More on this way of inducing Mental Absorption (Jhāna): ... Have a nice absorped day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Kasina Absorption! #99037 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 9:07 pm Subject: Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... sukinderpal Hi Kevin, > As many of you know, I had some ideas about Mahayana and started practicing > Mahayana again. This is partly due to a lot of Mahayana influence that > I had when I studied it before coming to Theravada. I think I made some > mistakes though (more about that later) in my understanding and have decided > to start practicing (that word!) again the way Ajahn Sujin taught. As you > might suspect, I am only holding to the Tipitika as a trustworthy source of > Buddhist ideas, as well as the input from my fellow dharmins based on the > Tipitika, and not holding to other scriptures. > > I'd like to talk more later about what led me to accept those Mahayana > ideas but unfortunately at the moment I am a little busy bit so I am just > going to write this message for now. > :-) Good to hear this, and look forward to anything more that you will say. Metta, Sukin #99038 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Jul 9, 2009 11:12 pm Subject: Sahajta/conascent and other paccayas sprlrt Hi, I've grouped together different conditions with supporting force (upatthambhaka satti) explained in parts with the same words in the Paccayaniddeso section of Patthna: sahajta (co-nascent), aamaa (mutual), nissaya (dependece), sampayutta (association), purejta (pre-nascent), atthi (presence), avigata (non-disappearance), and rammana (object). Alberto The four immaterial [nma] khandhas are condition, as co-nascent / as mutual / as dependence / as association / as presence and as non-disappearance condition, for each other. The four vipka [nma] khandhas are condition, as vipka condition, for each other. The four great-essentials are condition, as co-nascent / as mutual / as dependence / as presence and as non-disappearance condition, for each other. At birth [patisandhi], nma and rpa [dhammas] are condition, as co-nascent / as mutual / as dependence / as presence and as non-disappearance condition, for each other. Sometimes material [rpa] dhammas are condition, as co-nascent condition, for immaterial [nma] dhammas [hadaya vatthu, the heart base, arising together with patisandhi citta, relinking consciousness]; some other times they are not co-nascent condition. Citta and cetasika dhammas are condition, as co-nascent / as dependence / as presence and as non-disappearance condition, for citta-produced rpas. The four great-essentials are condition, as co-nascent / as dependence / as presence and as non-disappearance condition, for the [other 24] derived (upada) rpas. The yatana of the eye / ... / of the body is condition, as dependence / as pre-nascence / as presence and as non-disappearence condition, for the eye-consciousness element / ... / for the body-consciousness element, and for its associated dhammas. The yatana of the visible form / ... / of the tangible is condition, as object / as pre-nascence / as presence and as non-disappearence condition, for the eye-consciousness element / ... / for the body-consciousness element / for the mind-element, and for its associated dhammas. The rpa [hadaya, heart base] depending on which the mind-element [*] and the mind-consciousness element [**] arise [in kma and rpa, material and fine-material planes] is condition, as dependence / as pre-nascence[***] / as presence and as non-disappearence condition, for the the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness element, and for their associated dhammas. [* The mind element, mano_dhatu, comprises the three cittas (the two sampaticchana/receiving, vipaka, and the paca_avajjana/adverting, kiriya) that, along with the dvi_paca_viana, eye...body consciousness, arise in sense door processes only.] [** The mind-consciousness element, mano_viana_dhatu, comprises all the other cittas (89-10-3=76) arising both in sense door processes and mind door as well, such as kusala or akusala cittas, and also cittas that don't arise in a process, such as bhavanga, life continuum.] [*** pre-nascence, purejta, is always condition for the mind-element, only sometimes for the mind-consciousness element (when it arises in a sense door process)] All dhammas [*] are condition, as object condition, for the mind-consciousness element and for its associated dhammas. Whatever dhamma [*] concerning which citta and cetasika dhammas arise, they [whatever dhamma] are condition, as object condition, for these [citta and cetasika] dhammas. [** Paatti, concepts, are included as object-condition] CSCD pli: http://www.tipitaka.org/romn -> tipitaka > abhidhamma > 1. patthna > 2. paccayaniddeso] #99039 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:08 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, If one has accumulations to develop calm to a high degree one has to live a secluded life and the factors which are impediments to calm have to be severed. As regards insight, this has to be developed in ones daily life, one has to develop understanding of all realities which appear, ones defilements included. As we have seen, only super- normal powers are an impediment for insight since one cannot lead ones daily life if one wants to develop them. One has to live in seclusion and one has to develop calm to the degree of jhna in order to be able to acquire the supernormal powers. The other factors which are impediments for samatha are not impediments for vipassan. Dwelling is not a hindrance for the development of insight. We still have attachment to our house, we want to embellish it. So long as one is not an angm (non-returner), attachment to sensuous objects has not been eradicated yet. Attachment to the place where we live and any other kind of attachment can be object of awareness when it appears and then it is not an impediment. If there is no right understanding of the object of satipatthna, everything hinders: the place where one lives, relatives, travelling or sickness. There always seems to be an excuse for not being aware right at this moment. First this work has to be finished, that letter has to be written, relatives need help and take up our time so that we believe that there is no opportunity for awareness. ******* Nina. #99040 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Howard (99033) =============== > No, I'm fairly sure the physical seclusion of holders of other views was > not praised by the Buddha. > ------------------------------------------------- > My mistake, Jon. I read too quickly what you wrote here. On this point > you may well be correct. What one does when in seclusion is, of course, > crucial. =============== Yes, the crucial point is what one does or, more precisely, the quality of one's mental state, when in physical seclusion (and, of course, at other times also). It is the development of kusala of various kinds that is the gist of the Buddha's teaching. Physical seclusion was part of that for a certain kind of person (mainly, monks developing samatha with the aim of achieving jhana), but for these people seclusion comes naturally as samatha is further developed. And while noise, crowds of people etc are hindrances to attaining jhana, they are not hindrances to the development of samatha at lesser levels. So a passage such as the one from AN 8.2 quoted by Alex -- "Having heard the Dhamma, he [J: i.e., the monk who lives in apprenticeship to a Teacher] achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind" -- is not making a general statement that the development of samatha requires physical seclusion. Here, both "seclusion in body" and "seclusion in mind" are spoken of as *achievements*. These achievements follow after Teacher has revealed what is hidden, made plain what is obscure, etc in response to questions posed by the monk [see text of the sutta at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.002.than.html]. Samatha can be developed at any time that the citta is kusala, because it is the development of kusala instead of the akusala that is the usual reaction to sense-door experiences that is what samatha is all about. Jon #99041 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Alex (99034) =============== > > The qualification "who delight in detachment" is key here. The tendency to physical seclusion of the person who delights in detachment is what is being spoken of, not the seeking of physical seclusion for its own sake. > > > > But Jon, what have I been saying? > > Of course the physical solitude is done WITH WISDOM. It IS done for the sake of accruing more wisdom through meditation. =============== So it is a question of the development of wisdom. What is meant in the teachings by the development of wisdom, as you understand the texts? =============== > >Jon: I do not have a list handy. Two examples would be Anathapindika >and Upali (for the latter, see MN 50-something). > > They became stream enterers. Not Arhants. =============== Yes, I misread your question. But lay people can and did develop insight/wisdom, and that is the matter we've been discussing. =============== > But there are things to be done, right? If not, then what point is it to follow Buddha's teaching if one isn't supposed to do anything? > > It is a condition that negates the living of holy life: > "No one can do anything, everything is fully determined with no personal effort capable of doing anything". MN76 =============== Would you mind giving the source for this translation? Thanks. Jon #99042 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/10/2009 7:28:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Samatha can be developed at any time that the citta is kusala, because it is the development of kusala instead of the akusala that is the usual reaction to sense-door experiences that is what samatha is all about. ============================= If by 'samatha' here you refer merely to calm, I quite agree. If you refer to jhana, I disagree. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99043 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:11 am Subject: e-card from Italy 6 sarahprocter... Dear Friends & Tom P (if reading!), We're just coming to the end of our stay with my mother and family group of 16 in an old house in Tuscany. It's been very successful for everyone and a chance for us to really catch up with my nieces and nephews and my very out-going brothers. We've all had a lot of fun, eaten delicious home-cooked meals, explored (when not too hot) and had the occasional interesting chat. One of my nephews, Tom, posted a long time ago on DSG. He was reading a book on Tibetan Buddhism by the pool on the first day of our holiday here and finds it more appealing that what we have to say on the whole. For one thing, it seems to confirm his experiences, especially with regard to enlightenment, whereas what we say (and the books we've given him say), seems too unattractive, in terms of the long path. He also doesn't appreciate all the scriptual references or accept that even the suttas are the 'Buddha's word'. We also discussed Tom's ideas about "molecular transference" as conditioning consciousness, the relationship between consciousness and the body in this life, i.e the influence of bodily composition on the quality of consciousness, a person's consciousness being influenced by general surroundings, the distinction between mental and physical phenomena at this moment, the relationship between physics and Buddhism, rebirth and whether there is any reason to accept it, personality conditioned by factors in this life only, life in trees, how Buddhism should not include anything counter-intuitive because Buddha was rational, confirming one's experience, how the essence of Buddhism is indescribable, but if need be as "reasons for everything being the way they are".... Other topics too.... if you'd care to add anything on the discussions or your criticisms of what we say, please go ahead, Tom! We also had a chat one day with the partner of one of my brothers and my brothers about the kindness, consideration and truthfulness in the context of such a family gathering. There were different ideas about whether truthfulness and honesty means 'telling people what you think' or whether it really is the kindness and care that matters, which often means we keep quiet, not to cause upsets. Lots more, but packing and family call.... Tomorrow morning we start our long trip back to Hong Kong via Lucca, Pisa and Rome. I look forward to posting again and responding to posts when I've settled back in Hong Kong. Appreciating all the discussions in the meantime and thanks Phil and Kevin for chipping in....look forward to hearing more from you both anytime.... Metta, Sarah ======= #99045 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Howard ================ > Samatha can be developed at any time that the citta is kusala, because it > is the development of kusala instead of the akusala that is the usual > reaction to sense-door experiences that is what samatha is all about. > ============================= > If by 'samatha' here you refer merely to calm, I quite agree. If you > refer to jhana, I disagree. ================ Yes, I refer merely to calm (samatha), not to jhana which is an extremely high level of samatha. In the case of jhana, the factor of concentration (samadhi) plays a more important role than in the case of samatha in general (mere calm). When reading references in the suttas to samadhi, it's important to know whether the reference is to (a) samatha generally, (b) jhana in particular, or (c) insight development. The conditions for each are different. In particular, while absence of noise and crowds of people is necessary or at least highly desirable in the case of jhana, it is not a condition for the development of samatha generally or of insight. Jon #99046 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster nilovg Dear Alex, Op 10-jul-2009, om 1:04 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > For example, one listen to >a Dhamma talk, or speaks about the > Dhamma, and awareness cannot be >prevented from arising when the > conditions are there. > > -------- > > Nina. > > Alex: A question: Can a person make any effort to realize Nibbana > quicker? > Or it is all due to causes & conditions (accumulations) and nothing > can be done to make the progress quicker or slower. ---------- N: Nibbaana can only be realized when pa~n~naa has developed to the degree that this can occur. When the time is ripe for enlightenment. It is a gradual development in the course of many lives. It always impresses me to read in the Psalms of the Sisters, for example about Muttaa: She attained arahatship. Heaping up, accumulating kusala. Age enduring: for aeons. See, the right conditions were there. Now, such an amount of clinging and ignorance have to be worn away. One has to find out for oneself: is the wish to realize nibbaana more quickly not motivated by clinging? One can find out how much ignorance, forgetfulness, attachment, hard- headedness there still is and then conclude that it must be a long way to reach the other shore. Why not pay attention to the development of understanding of this moment? That leads to detachment and detachment is the goal.We have to be patient to listen to and consider the Dhamma again and again. We can study the different stages of insight and then we see that in the course of these stages there is a growing detachment from realities. I quote: It is already a degree of detachment to see that realities cannot be owned, that they have no possessor. The reality that appears does not belong to anyone; we cannot change it, we cannot do anything about it. More detachment is necessary to realize their falling away, one at a time. We like to hold on to realities, but they fall away. The stage of insight that realizes the arising and falling away of nama and rupa is a later stage. As higher stages of insight are reached pa~n~naa turns away from conditioned realities and inclines towards the unconditioned realty, nibbaana. In the process during which enlightenment is attained, there is awareness and understanding of the naama or ruupa that appears and it is seen as impermanent, or as dukkha or as anattaa, depending on the individual's inclination. Only one of these three characteristics at a time can be realized since the citta with pa~n~naa knows only one object at a time. ------- To summarize: nobody can make an effort to realize nibbaana faster, conditions cannot be forced. It is pan~naa, not self, that realizes nibbaana, and pa~n~naa is anattaa. When there is confidence in the right Path and pa~n~naa is being developed on and on, untiringly, with firm determination and perseverance, the goal will be reached, but it is unknown when. This does not matter, there is only the present reality to be studied. More understanding of he present reality is enough. Why wish for more? Nina. #99047 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/10/2009 1:33:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dsgmods@... writes: Hi Howard ================ > Samatha can be developed at any time that the citta is kusala, because it > is the development of kusala instead of the akusala that is the usual > reaction to sense-door experiences that is what samatha is all about. > ============================= > If by 'samatha' here you refer merely to calm, I quite agree. If you > refer to jhana, I disagree. ================ Yes, I refer merely to calm (samatha), not to jhana which is an extremely high level of samatha. In the case of jhana, the factor of concentration (samadhi) plays a more important role than in the case of samatha in general (mere calm). When reading references in the suttas to samadhi, it's important to know whether the reference is to (a) samatha generally, (b) jhana in particular, or (c) insight development. The conditions for each are different. In particular, while absence of noise and crowds of people is necessary or at least highly desirable in the case of jhana, it is not a condition for the development of samatha generally or of insight. Jon ============================= Were I of such a bent, I would believe the Jewish messiah (or the 2nd coming of Christ - to hedge my bets) was imminent! I am 99% in agreement with you on this. ;-)) The 1% is that under some circumstances, the absence of noise and crowds is conducive to ordinary calm. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99048 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster truth_aerator Hello Nina, Jon (see below) and all interested >Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 10-jul-2009, om 1:04 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > For example, one listen to >a Dhamma talk, or speaks about the > > Dhamma, and awareness cannot be >prevented from arising when the > > conditions are there. > > > -------- > > > Nina. > > > > Alex: A question: Can a person make any effort to realize Nibbana > > quicker? > > Or it is all due to causes & conditions (accumulations) and nothing > > can be done to make the progress quicker or slower. > ---------- > It always impresses me to read in the Psalms of the Sisters, for > example about Muttaa: was, in this Buddha dispensation, born in the land of Kosala...> She > attained arahatship. > Heaping up, accumulating kusala. Age enduring: for aeons. See, the > right conditions were there. We are different here. I am inspired by Therigatha stories as well, especially the story of a nun who had this past: She was a wealthy son of a goldsmith who done some bad kamma. He was reborn in woeful planes for a number of lives. Then she saw the Buddha and became an Arahant. Also by a Suppubudha the Leper and other people who realized stages of Awakening quickly and without much of past accumulations. Even two chief disciples, according to the suttas, went from worldlings to arahants in 7-14 days (as well as many others). As I understand it, various suttas state that a person can go from worldling to arhant within one life. Dhamma is timeless and visible here and now. It is Powerful to make such a radical transformations. > Now, such an amount of clinging and ignorance have to be worn away. > One has to find out for oneself: is the wish to realize nibbaana >more quickly not motivated by clinging? YES. But not all clingings are bad bad! There ARE good uses of conceit, craving and so one. If one craves for Nibbana than it is better than craving for a sensual experience or some new leather purse (or whatever in Samsara unrelated to Awakening). Desire, or motivation IS required to do anything including following the path, up to certain stages. There was even a sutta where Ananda has said that craving & conceit CAN BE SKILLFULLY USED. Ex: That monk is an Arahant, and I am not. I want to be Arahant, I don't want to be worse than him. That sort of temporary craving & conceit IS GOOD. It may kick one from complacent practice and MAKE ON DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Eventually this desire will drop itself off, like a desire to go to a certain place disappears when one has reached that place. > N: Nibbaana can only be realized when pa~n~naa has developed to the >degree that this can occur. When the time is ripe for enlightenment. > It is a gradual development in the course of many lives. > ------- > To summarize: nobody can make an effort to realize nibbaana faster, > conditions cannot be forced. It is pan~naa, not self, that realizes > nibbaana, and pa~n~naa is anattaa. When there is confidence in the > right Path and pa~n~naa is being developed on and on, untiringly, > with firm determination and perseverance, the goal will be reached, > but it is unknown when. This does not matter, there is only the > present reality to be studied. More understanding of he present > reality is enough. Why wish for more? > Nina. > Nina, Jon (this one is for you as well) In MN76 the above is called a holy life not worth living. If awakening cannot be made to occur faster or slower, if whatever happens happens due to predetermined causes & conditions then there IS NO PURPOSE IN DOING ANYTHING. If a person commits heinous crimes, he isn't to blame. If a person does everything right, the same thing. Everybody is alike. Some sort of apathetic teaching. === " It is not that by these virtues, observances, austerities, I will mature my imature actions, or while feeling I put an end to feelings. There are no measurements for pleasant or unpleasant feelings and not seeing an end to existences. There are no highs and lows. It is like being thrown into a disordered ball of thread and one has to find one's way to come out of it." Sandaka a wise man reflects. This good teacher upholds this view and declares it. These seven bodies-should end unpleasantness. If the words, of these teachers are true, I should not do anything. I should not live the holy life. My teacher and I are equal in our recluseship, I who do not even believe it. We both will make an end of unpleasantness faring on in existences. Unnecessarily these good teachers led a holy life, going naked, wearing a knot on the head. Yoked to standing and pulling out hairs of head and beard. As for me, I lived surrounded by wife and children, enjoyed wearing Kashmire clothes, bearing flowers and scents, and earning gold and silver. After death I become equal with these good teachers. Knowing what and seeing what should I lead the holy life under these teachers. He knowing this is not a holy life turns away from it. : Sandaka, this is the fourth holy life the Blessed One who knows and sees, is perfect and rightfully enlightened has declared should not be lived, which the wise man if possible does not live, and even if he lives is not convinced that it is merit http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/076-sandaka-e1\ .html Makkhali Gosala Heretical view in DN#2 ================= `By this virtue or this performance of duty, or this penance, or this righteousness will I make the karma (I have inherited), that is not yet mature, mature'though the fool should hope, by the same means, to get gradually rid of karma that has maturedneither of them can do it. The ease and pain, measured out, as it were, with a measure, cannot be altered in the course of transmigration. there can be neither increase nor decrease thereof, neither excess nor deficiency. Just as when a ball of string is cast forth it will spread out just as far, and no farther, than it can unwind, just so both fools and wise alike, wandering in transmigration exactly for the allotted term, shall then, and only then, make an end of pain. `Thus, Lord, did Makkhali of the cow-pen, when asked what was the immediate advantage in the life of a recluse, expound his theory of purification through transmigration. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/02-samannaphala-e.ht\ ml The main gist, punch line, or defining characteristic of Makkhali Gosala's view (if you skip the wrapping of the teaching) is that it there is strict causal determinism (like a rock that is rolling off a mountain and cannot by itself do anything to make it stop) and nothing can be made to alter the time one wonders in samsara. With metta, Alex #99049 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau Hi Howard and Jon, Glad to see you are 99% in agreement! :-) --------- H: > The 1% is that under some circumstances, the absence of noise and > crowds is conducive to ordinary calm. --------- Under some circumstances, the absence of noise and crowds is conducive to ordinary *selfishness*. For example, when there are so many needy people in the world, why would anyone go into seclusion? If not to turn one's back on them? It must come down to motive. The place we go to - whether it is a busy market place or a secluded forest - is immaterial. The only thing that matters is the state of mind that motivates going there. Is it kusala or akusala? And how can we know one from the other? Until we *can* know kusala from akusala, we should just go about our normal daily routines. At the same time we can practise right understanding of the presently arisen conditioned dhammas (satipatthana). Ken H #99050 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Howard and Jon, > > Glad to see you are 99% in agreement! :-) > > --------- > H: > The 1% is that under some circumstances, the absence of noise and > > crowds is conducive to ordinary calm. > --------- > > Under some circumstances, the absence of noise and crowds is conducive > to ordinary *selfishness*. For example, when there are so many needy > people in the world, why would anyone go into seclusion? If not to turn > one's back on them? > > It must come down to motive. The place we go to - whether it is a busy > market place or a secluded forest - is immaterial. The only thing that > matters is the state of mind that motivates going there. Is it kusala > or akusala? And how can we know one from the other? > > Hi KenH, Jon, and all interested, So do you try to tell me that you can equally well develop satipatthana at marketplace or strip club as you would be able to do in physical seclusion? What about access concentration? Can it equally well be developed for beginners at a mall or strip club Vs in a physical retreat? What about Jhana? Can it equally well be developed for beginners at a mall or strip club Vs a physical retreat? *note: Physical seclusion is done WITH right view. With metta, Alex #99051 From: "Dr. Han Tun" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:26 pm Subject: Physical Phenomena (33) hantun1 Physical Phenomena (33) Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 3. The Sense-Organs (Pasaada Ruupas): continuation. Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ Earsense is another sense-organ. The "Atthasaalinii" states that it is situated in the interior of the ear, "at a spot shaped like a finger-ring and fringed by tender, tawny hairs.[Note 8]". Earsense is the ruupa which has the capability to receive sound. It is basis and door of hearing-consciousness. The "Visuddhimagga" (XIV, 38) gives the following definition [Note 9]: "The ear's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for impact of sounds; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to hear. Its function is to pick up (an object) among sounds. It is manifested as the footing of ear-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to hear." Without earsense there cannot be hearing. The "Visuddhimagga" (XV, 39) states: "Ear-consciousness arises due to ear, sound, aperture and attention." "Aperture" is the cavity of the ear. If one of these conditions is lacking hearing cannot arise. As to the other pasaada rpas, smellingsense, tastingsense and bodysense, these are defined in the same way [Note 10]. Smellingsense is a ruupa situated in the nose. It is one of the conditions for smelling. The "Visuddhimagga"(XV, 39) states: "Nose-consciousness arises due to nose, odour, air (the element of wind or motion) and attention." As to the element of wind or motion being a condition, we read in the "Atthasaalinii" (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 315): "... the nose desires space, and has for object odour dependent on wind. Indeed, cattle at the first showers of rain keep smelling at the earth, and turning up their muzzles to the sky breathe in the wind. And when a fragrant lump is taken in the fingers and smelt, no smell is got when breath is not inhaled...." As to tastingsense, this is situated in the tongue and it is one of the conditions for tasting. The "Visuddhimagga" states in the same section: "Tongue-consciousness arises due to tongue, flavour, water and attention." Also the element of water or cohesion plays its part when tasting occurs. We read in the "Atthasaalinii" (same section, 315) about the element of water being a condition for tasting: "... Thus even when a bhikkhu's duties have been done during the three watches of the night, and he, early in the morning, taking bowl and robe, has to enter the village, he is not able to discern the taste of dry food if it is unwetted by the saliva...." [Note 8] Atthasaalinii II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 310. [Note 9] See also "Dhammasanga.nii 601 and Atthasaalinii II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 312. [Note 10] See Dhammasanga.nii 605, 609, 613, Visuddhimagga XIV, 39, 40, 41, Atthasaalinii, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 312. ------------------------------- with metta, Han #99052 From: han tun Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:29 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) hantun1 Dear All, Nina had quoted Visuddhimagga XV, 39, to show how these consciousness arise. So I also read Visuddhimagga to know more, and I found the following. 1. Eye-consciousness arises due to eye, visible object, light and attention. (cakkhu ruupaaloka manasikaare pa.ticca uppajjati cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na.m) 2. Ear-consciousness arises due to ear, sound, aperture and attention. (sota sadda vivara manasikaare pa.ticca uppajjati sota-vi~n~naa.na.m) 3. Nose-consciousness arises due to nose, odour, air and attention. (ghaana gandha vaayu manasikaare pa.ticca uppajjati ghaana-vi~n~naa.na.m) 4. Tongue-consciousness arises due to tongue, flavour, water and attention. (jivhaa rasa aapa manasikaare pa.ticca uppajjati jivhaa-vi~n~naa.na.m) 5. Body-consciousness arises due to body, tangible object, earth and attention. (kaaya pho.t.thabba pathavii manasikaare pa.ticca uppajjati kaaya-vi~n~naa.na.m) 6. Mind-consciousness arises due to life-continuum, mind, mental object and attention. (bhavanga mana dhamma manasikaare pa.ticca uppajjati mano-vi~n~naa.na.m) I was not very happy with the word *aperture* in relation to ear-consciousness. Ears are not the only apertures; nose is also the aperture; and eyes are also the apertures. I would have thought *sound medium* in appropriate Pali word would be one of the conditions for the arising of ear-consciousness, because sound travels through air, liquid, or solid, called the sound medium. Sound cannot travel through vacuum; it needs the sound medium. But what can one do when Ven Buddhaghosa used the Pali word vivara, which means opening or aperture? We will have to accept the correct translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli! The mind-consciousness is not counted here as the main topic of the book is only on physical phenomena. But I have noted it for future reference. Yours truly, Han #99053 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau Hi Alex, -------- > So do you try to tell me that you can equally well develop satipatthana at marketplace or strip club as you would be able to do in physical seclusion? -------- Yes, no doubt about it! Wherever you are right now is the best place for satipatthana development. In fact, it is the only place. It is the only place because any idea of continued existence (which would be necessary for reaching another place) would be contrary to satipatthana. -------------------- A: > What about access concentration? Can it equally well be developed for beginners at a mall or strip club Vs in a physical retreat? -------------------- That depends on how you define the 'beginner' who wants to take the next step towards jhana. It could be (1) someone who knows with certainty whether the present citta is kusala or akusala. Or it could be (2) someone who does not yet have any such highly developed knowledge. In case (1) further development would require seclusion. In case (2) just the present situation is sufficient. ------------------------------- A: > What about Jhana? Can it equally well be developed for beginners at a mall or strip club Vs a physical retreat? ------------------------------- My answer would be the same as for access concentration because (correct me if I am wrong) I have always thought it was a stage of jhana development. (?) Ken H #99054 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:55 pm Subject: Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... rjkjp1 Dear Kevin I just got back from a trip to Cambodia with Junko and I couldn't have read anything more pleasing. It was great having you here in Bangkok - why not return for another 5 months, you know how to live on a tight budget. In fact I will cover your guest house accomodation while you are here. best robert will put In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, westbankj@... wrote: > > Hi group. > > Some of you may remember me here from the group as I posted here once or > twice. Others, like Jon, Sara, Robert, Sukin, Ivan, Nina, and others (Hi > everybody!) might remember me from my visit to Bangkok last year. > > As many of you know, I had some ideas about Mahayana and started practicing > Mahayana again. This is partly due to a lot of Mahayana influence that > I had when I studied it before coming to Theravada. I think I made some > mistakes though (more about that later) in my understanding and have decided > to start practicing (that word!) again the way Ajahn Sujin taught. As you > might suspect, I am only holding to the Tipitika as a trustworthy source of > Buddhist ideas, as well as the input from my fellow dharmins based on the > Tipitika, and not holding to other scriptures. > > I'd like to talk more later about what led me to accept those Mahayana > ideas but unfortunately at the moment I am a little busy bit so I am just > going to write this message for now. > > It feels good to write "here". > > Hope to get back on the net soon. > > Talk to you all soon... > > Sincerely, > > Kevin > > P.S. This bit I was going to save for my next message to the group but I > just wanted to say again that I am extremely grateful to all the kind help > that the group gave me there in Bangkok, especially to Robert, Ivan and > Sukin, and of course especially Ajahn Sujin. You are guys are the best and you > made my stay in Bangkok great, all of you. Couldn't find a better group of > people in a million years, honestly. > #99055 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:56 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) nichiconn dear Han, #99052 this "medium" or non-vacuum or whatever it is for sound to travel? what else but the avinibhoga. and between any two kalapas there is a 'distance' or 'space'; not exactly vivara (opening or aperture) but you could draw parallels, maybe. Anyway, thanks for looking up the word in question. Also, a quote agreeing with what you said about the other apertures/openings - Vism. Ch.VI, On foulness: << 43. But when a clansman has cultivated the meditation subject under former Enlightened Ones, kept the ascetic practices, threshed out the great primary elements, discerned formations, defined mentality-materiality, eliminated the perception of a being, done the ascetic's [185] duties, lived the moral life, and developed the development, when he contains the seed [of Turning Away from formations], and has mature knowledge and little defilement, then the counterpart sign appears to him in the place while he keeps looking. If it does not appear in that way, then it appears to him as he is apprehending the sign in the six ways. 44. But if it does not appear to him even then, he should apprehend the sign again in five more ways: (7) by it joints, (8) by its openings, (9) by its concavities, (10) by its convexities, and (11) all round. >> Then it gives: << 46. (8) By its openings: an 'opening' is the hollow between the arm [and the side], the hollow between the legs, the hollow of the stomach, the hollow of the ear. He should define it by its openings in this way. Or alternatively, the opened or closed state of the eyes and the opened or closed state of the mouth can be defined. >> end quo. vism vi but what is it we think moves thru space or down the sidewalk or whatever? some idea we have of something lasting, "itself" moving. Nice seeing you again, btw. Thanks again. peace, connie #99056 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Howard ================ > Yes, I refer merely to calm (samatha), not to jhana which is an extremely > high level of samatha. > > In the case of jhana, the factor of concentration (samadhi) plays a more > important role than in the case of samatha in general (mere calm). > > When reading references in the suttas to samadhi, it's important to know > whether the reference is to (a) samatha generally, (b) jhana in particular, > or (c) insight development. The conditions for each are different. In > particular, while absence of noise and crowds of people is necessary or at > least highly desirable in the case of jhana, it is not a condition for the > development of samatha generally or of insight. > > Jon > ============================= > Were I of such a bent, I would believe the Jewish messiah (or the 2nd > coming of Christ - to hedge my bets) was imminent! I am 99% in agreement > with you on this. ;-)) > The 1% is that under some circumstances, the absence of noise and > crowds is conducive to ordinary calm. ================= Hallelujah! ;-)) (Perhaps you could help explain this to Alex...) Jon #99057 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:24 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) nichiconn Dear Han, Friends, I forgot to say it's PM Tin who uses the word "aperture". Anyway, I'll just quote the same general section of the V as before for that and because it also mentions another kind of "separation" people have been talking about lately. peace, connie Path of Purity, ch. 6: Moreover, thieves who have committed, or are about to commit theft, resort to thinking: "The charnel-field is a place free from suspicion." Being chased by men they might run away, dropping their stolen bundle near the Brother. People seize him and do hurt to him, saying, "We have found the thief with the bundle." Then his friend of the monastery convinces the men, saying, "Do not hurt him. He told me and went out to do this work of meditation," and procures his liberation. This is the advantage of going after due notice. Therefore after informing such a Brother as is mentioned above, he should go according to the Rule given in the Commentaries, deriving joy and gladness from a desire to see the sign of the Foul, as goes joyfully and with gladness the prince to the coronation place, the sacrificing priest to the sacrificial hall, or the beggar to the treasure-trove. For this has been said: "He who grasps the Foul Sign in a swollen thing goes alone without a companion, established in unforgetful mindfulness, with his faculties drawn in, and his mind not dwelling on outside things, reflecting on the path of going and coming. In whatever place is [181] laid the Foul Sign of the swollen thing, there in that place he makes a rock or ant-hill or tree or bush or creeper one with the sign, one with the object, and after doing this he considers the Foul Sign of the swollen thing from its intrinsic nature. He considers it from the point of view of colour, sex {Or "feature" - Expositor 86.}, shape, region, locality, limitation, joints, apertures, low parts, high parts, all sides. He makes a good grasp of the Sign, notes it well, determines it well. Having grasped the Sign well, noted it well, determined it well, he goes {"Home" adds the .Tiikaa.} alone without a companion, established in unforgetful mindfulness, with his faculties drawn in and his mind not dwelling on outside things, reflecting on the path of going and coming. To and fro he walks absorbed in the Sign {Lit. "Walking to and fro he establishes a walking which partakes of it (the Sign)." And the same with the next sentence. Read adhi.t.thaatii.}. Sitting down also he is absorbed in the Sign. What is the purpose, what the advantage of considering the Sign [i.e. rocks and so on, which are] on all sides [of the swollen thing]? Considering the Sign on all sides is for the sake of non-confusion, has the advantage of non-confusion. What is the purpose, the advantage of grasping the Sign in these eleven ways? Grasping the sign in these eleven ways is for the purpose of binding the mind to the object. What is the purpose, the advantage of reflecting on the path of going and coming? Reflecting on the path of going and coming is for the sake of progress, has the advantage of progress in the course. Seeing the advantages, and aware (as) of a jewel he adopts a reverential attitude of mind, and in a loving mood binds his heart to the idea, saying: 'By means of this progress I shall surely be freed from old age and death.' Aloof indeed from sense-desires ... he abides in the attainment of the First Jhaana. And he attains the First Jhaana of the realm of sense, and the divine life, and the basis of meritorious act which consists in growth." {According to Sh this is from the Great Commentary.} Therefore let him who goes for a sight of the charnel-field in order to restrain his mind, strike the gong to summon the monks to an assembly, and then go (with company). But he who goes there solely for the sake of a particular subject of meditation {Lit. "by the head of the meditation-subject," i.e. making this the chief cause.} should go alone, without company, without letting go, but attending to the original subject {Such as he has been practising.}, taking a walking stick or staff with which to ward of danger from jackals and so on at the cemetary, [182] his mindfulness deriving strength from its being effectively established, his mind not dwelling on outside things since he has effectively drawn in the faculties, of which mind is the sixth. #99058 From: "connie" Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:03 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) nichiconn Dear Han, Friends, Just another "apperture" quote: CMA Guide to Ch.6 #4: << (8) The space element (aakaasadhaatu): Space, as understood in the Abhidhamma, is not bare geometric extension but the void region that delimits and separates objects and groups of material phenomena, enabling them to be perceived as distinct. The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Its function is to display the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as the confines of matter, or as the state of gaps and apertures. Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. >> peace, connie #99059 From: han tun Date: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:49 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) hantun1 Dear Connie, I really appreciate the trouble you have taken to explain to me very comprehensively, and I thank you very much for that. But what I said was very elementary. 2. Ear-consciousness arises due to ear, sound, aperture and attention. (sota sadda vivara manasikaare pa.ticca uppajjati sota-vi~n~naa.na.m) There are four factors involved for ear-consciousness to arise. (1) sota, earsense (2) sadda, sound (3) vivara, aperture (4) manasikaara, attention And I was questioning the use of the word *aperture*. I was questioning with my very limited knowledge. Ven Buddhaghosa used the Pali word vivara. Bhikkhu Nanamoli translated vivara as aperture. He was correct in the translation. PTS Dictionary gives the following translation: Vivara (nt.) [fr. vi+vṛ] 1. opening (lit. dis-- covering), pore, cleft, leak, fissure Dh 127 (pabbatānaŋ; cp Divy 532; Miln 150; PvA 104); Vism 192, 262; J iv.16; v.87; DhA iv.46 (mukha˚); SnA 355; PvA 152, 283. <-> So I had said I cannot say anything about it. I value the original Pali word more than any other translation. If Ven Buddhaghosa said vivara is essential, it must be essential. So the case was closed more or less. Now, your explanations are very deep. It will take me days to understand them. My question is like high-school level question. Your explanation is like PhD thesis level. But I thank you very much. I will study your explanations carefully. Respectfully, Han #99060 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/10/2009 6:27:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard and Jon, Glad to see you are 99% in agreement! :-) --------- H: > The 1% is that under some circumstances, the absence of noise and > crowds is conducive to ordinary calm. --------- Under some circumstances, the absence of noise and crowds is conducive to ordinary *selfishness*. For example, when there are so many needy people in the world, why would anyone go into seclusion? If not to turn one's back on them? --------------------------------------------- It depends on circumstances, Ken. Gotama was wealthy and could have stayed in "the world" and helped needy people. Instead, he went into seclusion, and for good reason, including helping all the world. ------------------------------------------- It must come down to motive. ----------------------------------------- Of course. Some folks go into seclusion, because they are misanthropes, and others for quite the opposite reason. In general, motives are multifold. ----------------------------------------- The place we go to - whether it is a busy market place or a secluded forest - is immaterial. ------------------------------------------ That's just not so, and the Buddha didn't mention specific sorts of places just "for the hell of it." C'mon, Ken! If you wish to study suttas or Abhidhamma, you would choose a library or your quiet living room or study rather than, for example, a stadium where people are watching a sports competition, would you not? Are you entirely out of touch, or are you just arguing for arguing's sake? ----------------------------------------- The only thing that matters is the state of mind that motivates going there. ------------------------------------------ And external conditions affect that. They affect what is possible! ------------------------------------------- Is it kusala or akusala? And how can we know one from the other? ------------------------------------------ It seems to me that you have a big disconnect between theory and practice and that you skip over teachings of the Buddha that make you uncomfortable. I suppose most of us do the latter to some extent, but at least we should be aware of it. ---------------------------------------- Until we *can* know kusala from akusala, we should just go about our normal daily routines. --------------------------------------- And you do not know one from the other? Frankly I don't believe it. What I do believe is that you want to consider yourself a Buddhist, but all you want to do in that regard is read about it, though skipping over the "uncomfortable parts". --------------------------------------------- At the same time we can practise right understanding of the presently arisen conditioned dhammas (satipatthana). -------------------------------------------- Of course we can! All that is possible for us in the way of Dhamma practice is to the good. This is not at issue. ------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99061 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster nilovg Dear Alex, I will think over your post, but it takes time. some duties first: my Sangiiti co. part two I have to finish, plus some old revisions I am doing. All this takes time. But I enjoy discussing with you. Nina. Op 10-jul-2009, om 23:36 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Desire, or motivation IS required to do anything including > following the path, up to certain stages. > > There was even a sutta where Ananda has said that craving & conceit > CAN BE SKILLFULLY USED. #99062 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (33) nilovg Dear Han and Connie, It is good Connie referred to space, that helps to understand aperture in the ear as a condition for sound. I add some more, see also later on my Ruupas, Ch 7. Op 11-jul-2009, om 7:49 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I really appreciate the trouble you have taken to explain to me > very comprehensively, and I thank you very much for that. --------- N: The Atthasaalini, II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 314 (Derived Material Qualities): There is a simile of a crocodile who desires a den in the water to sleep in. From my Ch 7: We read in the Discourse on the Analysis of the Elements (Middle Length Sayings III, no 140) that the Buddha explained to the monk Pukkusti about the elements and that he also spoke about the element of space. This Sutta refers to the empty space of holes and openings that are, as we have read, the manifestation of space. We read: ... And what, monk, is the element of space? The element of space may be internal, it may be external. And what, monk, is the internal element of space? Whatever is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as the auditory and nasal orifices, the door of the mouth and that by which one swallows what is munched, drunk, eaten and tasted, and where this remains, and where it passes out (of the body) lower down, or whatever other thing is space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, this, monk, is called the internal element of space. Whatever is an internal element of space and whatever is an external element of space, just these are the element of space. By means of perfect intuitive wisdom this should be seen as it really is thus: This is not mine, this am I not, this is not myself. Having seen this thus as it really is by means of perfect intuitive wisdom, he disregards the element of space, he cleanses his mind of the element of space. The Sutta speaks about space of the auditory orifices and the other holes and openings of the body. Space in the ear is one of the conditions for hearing [1]. We attach great importance to internal space and we take it for mine or self, but it is only a rpa element. -------- footnote 1: Atthaslin II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 314. Space in the ear or the nose is space that is not conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition; it is unconditioned rpa. --------- Han, I find space a very difficult subject. It is not one of the seven ruupas that appear all day through the five senses. Still, it is useful to learn more about it. ------- Nina. #99063 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... nilovg Dear Robert and Kevin, Op 11-jul-2009, om 5:55 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > It was great having you here in Bangkok - why not return for > another 5 months, you know how to live on a tight budget. In fact I > will cover your guest house accomodation while you are here. -------- N: Can Kevin not make it next year February? We are in the process of planning our visit, perhaps second half of Febr. I found it very helpful to listen to what Kevin said, the few meetings I met him. Robert, anumodana for your kind and generous offer to him. Nina. #99064 From: han tun Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:07 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) hantun1 Dear Nina and Connie, Nina: The Sutta speaks about space of the auditory orifices and the other holes and openings of the body. Space in the ear is one of the conditions for hearing [1]. We attach great importance to internal space and we take it for “mine” or self, but it is only a rúpa element. -------- footnote 1: Atthasåliní II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 314. Space in the ear or the nose is space that is not conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition; it is unconditioned rúpa. --------- Han, I find space a very difficult subject. It is not one of the seven ruupas that appear all day through the five senses. Still, it is useful to learn more about it. ========== Han: Thank you very much for your patience with me, and explaining comprehensively about space. But as I said, I talked about a very simple issue. I talked about the Pali word vivara used by Ven Buddhaghosa, which was translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli as aperture. I do not know how space comes into the picture. As Nina has pointed out, if the sutta speaks about space of the auditory orifices and the other holes and openings of the body, and if space in the ear is one of the conditions for hearing, I wonder why Ven Buddhaghosa did not use the word aakaasa instead of vivara? Or, is vivara synonymous with aakaasa? Respectfully, Han #99065 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (33) nilovg Dear Han, Op 11-jul-2009, om 17:07 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I wonder why Ven Buddhaghosa did not use the word aakaasa instead > of vivara? Or, is vivara synonymous with aakaasa? -------- N: I think that there is a close connection. If there were no vivara, aperture, how could there be aakaasa as one of the conditions for hearing sound? I find the story of the monk reciting in a cave a good simile. That cave resounds so that the sound of his recitation is well heard. The cave of the ear is well suited, it cannot be compared to space of the nostrils mentioned by you, these do not help the sound to come through. These are just my own elaborations and not so important. Nina. #99066 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Ken, Scott, Jon and all, ---In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > -------- > > So do you try to tell me that you can equally well develop > satipatthana at marketplace or strip club as you would be able to do in > physical seclusion? > -------- > > Yes, no doubt about it! Wherever you are right now is the best place > for satipatthana development. In fact, it is the only place. > > It is the only place because any idea of continued existence (which > would be necessary for reaching another place) would be contrary to > satipatthana. > It seems that we are reading different Buddhism. In many suttas the Buddha praised seclusion. In fact even the famous satipatthana sutta does have physical seclusion part in it: "And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html > -------------------- > A: > What about access concentration? Can it equally well be developed > for beginners at a mall or strip club Vs in a physical retreat? > -------------------- > > That depends on how you define the 'beginner' who wants to take the next > step towards jhana. It could be (1) someone who knows with certainty > whether the present citta is kusala or akusala. Or it could be (2) > someone who does not yet have any such highly developed knowledge. > > In case (1) further development would require seclusion. In case (2) > just the present situation is sufficient. > > ------------------------------- > A: > What about Jhana? Can it equally well be developed for beginners at > a mall or strip club Vs a physical retreat? > ------------------------------- > > My answer would be the same as for access concentration because (correct > me if I am wrong) I have always thought it was a stage of jhana > development. (?) > > Ken H So are you saying that a person can develop wholesome states of mind with the same efficiency when being in a STRIP CLUB (or watching porn, or being a hired killer to wipe the earth off people who are enemies of the "Democratic Free World" ????? I can't believe it.... Why sutta after sutta there is the passage about a layperson considering that "homelife is dusty, what if I shaved and went into homelessness." "A householder, or the son of a householder or one born into some clan hears the Teaching and gains faith in the Thus Gone, he reflects. The household life is full of difficulties. It is a path of defilements. Going forth homeless, is like open space. Living in a household it is not easy to lead a holy life complete and pure without being defiled. Shaving head and beard, putting on yellow clothes, why shouldn't I go forth homeless? At some suitable time he gives up a little wealth or a large mass of wealth, either leaving behind a small circle of friends, or a large circle of friends shaving head and beard and donning yellow clothes, goes forth as a homeless. Gone forth he becomes a trainer in the life of a bhikkhu. He gives up hurting living things, throwing away stick and weapon ashamed he abides arousing compassion for all beings. Abstaining from taking what is not given, desires the given, making his mind pure, without theft he abides. Abstains from low sexual intercourse leads the holy life. Abstaining from telling lies becomes reliable and trustworthy and abides without a dispute with the world. Gives up slandering. Hearing it here does not say it elsewhere, to split these. Hearing elsewhere does not say it here to split those, Thus he unites the split, promotes unity. Fond of unity talks words to unite. Gives up rough talk, saying pleasing words that go straight to the heart of all. Abstains from frivolous talk saying appropriate, truthful and meaningful words, in accordance with the Teaching and Discipline, words that could be treasured. Abstains from destroying seed groups and vegetable groups. Partaking one meal a day, abstains from food at night and at untimely hours. Abstains from dance, singing, music, decorations, flowers and scents, ointments and adornments. Abstains from high and stately beds. Abstains from accepting gold and silver, uncooked rice and uncooked flesh, Abstains from accepting women and girls, slaves, men or women. Abstains from accepting goats and cows, fowl and pigs, elephants, cattle, horses and mares. Abstains from accepting fields and wealth, and doing the work of a messenger. Abstains from buying and selling and unfair ways of weighing and measuring. Abstains from cutting severing, destroying and highway robbery, and wrong ways of gaining food. Satisfied, covering the body with robes, and feeding the belly with morsel food, goes with all the belongings wherever he goes. Like the birds small and large that go with the weight of their wings. Likewise satisfied covering the body with robes and feeding the belly with morsels goes with all the belongings wherever he goes. Endowed with this mass of virtues, he experiences the pleasure of blamelessness internally. Seeing a form with the eye, does not take the sign or the elements. To one abiding with the mental faculty of the eye uncontrolled, demerit of covetousness and displeasure may trickle. He abides protecting the mental faculty of the eye. Hearing a sound with the ear, Cognizing a smell with the nose, tasting, cognizing touches with the body, Cognizing an idea with the mind, does not take the sign or the elements. To him abiding with the mental faculty of the mind not controlled, demerit of covetousness and displeasure may trickle. He abides protecting the mental faculty of the mind. Endowed with the noble ones' control of the mental faculties, he experiences the untouched pleasure of the mental faculties. Going forward or returning he is aware. Looking on, or looking aside is aware. Bending or stretching is aware. Bearing the bowl and three robes is aware. Tasting, drinking, eating and enjoying is aware. Going, standing, sitting, lying, if awake, and keeping silence he is aware. Endowed, with the mass of virtues, the control of the mental faculties, right mindfulness of the noble ones, he abides in a secluded dwelling, such as a forest, the root of a tree, a mountain grotto a cave, a charnel ground, a jungle forest, an open space, or a heap of straw. After the meal and returning from the alms round, he sits legs crossed, the body placed straight and mindfulness established in front. Dispelling covetousness for the world he abides freeing the mind. Dispelling anger he abides with a mind free of anger, compassionate to all born. Dispelling sloth and torpor he abides, aware of a perception of light, mindful of cleaning sloth and torpor. Dispelling restlessness and worry he abides with a mind internally appeased, cleaning the mind of restlessness and worry. Abides with doubts dispelled of merit that should be, and should not be done. The bhikkhu dispelling the five hindrances of the mind, and wisely making the minor defilements weak, secludes the mind from sensual thoughts and demerit. With thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness, born of seclusion he abides in the first jhna. Again the bhikkhu overcomimng thoughts and thought processes, the mind internally appeased, in a single point, with joy and pleasantness born of concentration abides in the second jhna. Again, the bhikkhu with equanimity to joy and detachment and aware of experiencing pleasantness, with the body too, [2] abides in the third jhna. The noble ones say this is abiding in pleasanatness, mindful of equanimity. Again, the bhikkhu dispelling pleasantness and unpleasantness and earlier having dispelled pleasure and displeasure, mindfulness purified with equanimity abides in the fourth jhna. When the mind is concentrated, pure, free from minor defilements, malleable workable not disturbed, he directs the mind for the knowledge of previous births. Recollects the manifold previous births, one birth, two births, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred births, a thousand births, a hundred thousand births, innumerable forward cycles of births, innumerable backward cycles of births, innumerable forward and backward cycles of births. There I was born of such name, clan, disposition, supports, experiencing such pleasant and unpleasant feelings, with such a life span. Disappearing from there was born there with such name, clan, disposition, supports, experiencing such pleasant and unpleasant feelings, with such a life span. Disappearing from there, is born here. Thus with all modes and all details manifold previous births are recollected. When the mind is concentrated, pure, free from minor defilements malleable workable not disturbed, he directs the mind for knowledge of the disappearing and appearing of beings. With the heavenly eye purified beyond human, sees beings disappearing and appearing unexalted and exalted, beautiful and ugly, arising in good and bad states according to the results of actions. These good beings misbehaving by body, speech and mind, blaming noble ones, with the wrong view of actions, after death are born in loss, in decrease, in hell. As for these good beings, well behaved in body speech and mind not blaming noble ones, with the right view of actions after death are born in heaven. Thus, with the heavenly eye purified beyond human sees beings disappearing and appearing. When the mind is concentrated, pure, free from minor defilements, malleable workable not disturbed, he directs the mind for the destruction of desires. He knows this is unpleasant, this its arising, this its cessation, and this, the path to the cessation of unpleasantness as it really is. Knows these are desires, this, their rising, this, their cessation and this, the path to their cessation as it really is. His mind that knows and sees thus, is released from sensual desires, from desires 'to be' and from ignorant desires. When released, he knows, I'm released, birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived, what should be done is done. There's nothing more to wish. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/051-kandaka-e1\ .html With metta, Alex #99067 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster truth_aerator Dear Nina (and all), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > I will think over your post, but it takes time. some duties first: my > Sangiiti co. part two I have to finish, plus some old revisions I am > doing. All this takes time. But I enjoy discussing with you. > Nina. > Op 10-jul-2009, om 23:36 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > Desire, or motivation IS required to do anything including > > following the path, up to certain stages. > > > > There was even a sutta where Ananda has said that craving & conceit > > CAN BE SKILLFULLY USED. Please do. Here is a sutta: AN 4.159 PTS: A ii 144 Bhikkhuni Sutta: The Nun "'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will through the ending of the fermentations enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then, at a later time, he abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. "'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?' Then, at a later time, he abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. 'This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.159.than.html With metta, Alex #99068 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:38 am Subject: Re: Q: Can one exit samsara faster ksheri3 Good Morning Alex, First let me focus on the subject line which you used to attract my attention and give me pause to ponder. This is a very odd question! Is "samsara" akin to a movie theater or any structure that would have an Entrance and an Exit? Now we're focussing on the noumenal concept and reality of Samsara actually being a Rupa which we call Samsara and you, in this terminology, have placed further restrictions upon Samsara by making Samsara strictly into a bauble or trinket that has a value attatched to it which forces an individual to either accept the price (cost) or refuse the price (cost) THUS either obtaining Samsara by paying the price or not obtaining Samsara by refusing to pay the price. I'll venture to say that Samsara is akin to oxygen and the involuntary bodily function called Breathing. When you or I or any being was born we did not have the choice of NOT BREATHING and NOT BREATHING OXYGEN. Even in Astral Projection we are given many things that we have no ability to other than to ACCEPT as that which is. We are forced to deal with Samsara but the Four Noble Truths are very expert in giving us guidence in the manor of which we choose to deal with it. Lets get to the other aspect of this post that caught my eye after that interesting subject line. > >Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > > Dear Alex, > > ------- > > N: It entirely depends on the individual how much he will listen, > > consider, discuss, understand. No rule. > > -------- > > N: While one studies there can also be practice, that is, >mindfulness of nama and rupa is not to be excluded. It can arise at >any time, because of its own conditions. For example, one listen to >a Dhamma talk, or speaks about the Dhamma, and awareness cannot be >prevented from arising when the conditions are there. > > -------- > > Nina. > > > A question: Can a person make any effort to realize Nibbana quicker? > Or it is all due to causes & conditions (accumulations) and nothing can be done to make the progress quicker or slower. colette: INDEED, I'm surprised that I forgot the excitement I had when I read this last paragraph! HERETICS and HERESY! Alex, Remember, this is a Theravadan forum and a Theravadan group RESULTING in the consciousness that THERE ARE NO EASY WAYS TO DO THIS AND THERE IS NO WAY THAT YOU WILL ESCAPE PAYING THE BAGMAN THE EXTORTION PAYMENT WHICH WILL MAINTAIN THE THERAVADAN TEMPLE AND MULTITUDES. Consequently, as you make your payments to the Theravadan mythos over the thousands of lifetimes that the Theravadans dictate is the only way to achieve enlightenment, THEN, and ONLY THEN, will the Theravadan text allow you to achieve a state of Nibbana. Another consequence of agreement to the gang called Theravadans is that somebody is gonna have to manage the wealth of EXCESS MONEY that the Theravadans received and have and will receive in the future, which unfortunately manifests a HEIRARCHY and also manifests a BOLSHEVIK ruling over the MENSHEVIK. So, I'm sure you see the problems you yourself have just created by your humourous little jest at Heresy and being a Heretic since now you've given not only Moscow but Tel Aviv the right to corrupt and torture any person that stands in their way. I'm sure Chairman Moa and his Little Red Book are manifested here but I'm not up on these aspects of Chinese culture and history so I'll let it go for the time being. If you choose to study a Mahayana form of Buddhism then there are faster and more expedicious vehicles to use and apply to ENGLIGHTENMENT, HOWEVER, they are Mahayana and mainly, in my experience, Tibetan, a Northern School, and therefore way out of the ball park that the Theravadan plays in. Good Luck, now that you've disturbed the pond, threw a rock or pebble in the pond which causes or caused ripples in the pond's Mirror-like reflection of the, "Blue Pancake", blue sky above but you see, if I was permitted the right to make this application then there would be many Fred Flintstones/Barnery Rubbles or Ralph Kramdens/Ed Nortons that pledged obedience to a Fraternity called the Free and Accepted Masons so that they could gain status from their association with the fraternity but they never had any intention of doing the work, they wanted merely to skim profits from the fraternity for their personal gratificiation and glorification without costing themselves anything, and they wonder where Samsara comes from, huh? Ya see, if we make this connection between the reflective qualities of the still pond then we open the door to the Masonic concept of "As above so Below" or the Christian concept of "...on earth as it is in heaven" but they never can quite escape the potentials that they've created a heaven or an above that has PARASITES that feed off of or feed from the deity without doing any work! good luck. toodles, colette #99069 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 Dear Ken and Alex, My computer is running again (no, really?) Regarding: A: "So do you try to tell me that you can equally well develop satipatthana at marketplace or strip club as you would be able to do in physical seclusion?" K: "Yes, no doubt about it! Wherever you are right now is the best place for satipatthana development. In fact, it is the only place." Scott: Citta-viveka - mental seclusion - can, I think, establish itself where ever, and is not dependent on 'location'. It is dependent on various mental factors. I think this is the more relevant to us all - none of having accumulations or understanding for suitable for jhaana. There are a great set of posts under 'Seclusion' in U.P. A concrete focus on a) development as being something one can do, and b) conventional locations having more or less suitability is confusing. For the attainment of jhaana the suttas are clear - the titillations arising in a strip club would possibly make it difficult to achieve. Concentration, on the other hand, would be present for sure. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #99070 From: han tun Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:28 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) hantun1 Dear Nina (Connie), N: I think that there is a close connection. If there were no vivara, aperture, how could there be aakaasa as one of the conditions for hearing sound? I find the story of the monk reciting in a cave a good simile. That cave resounds so that the sound of his recitation is well heard. The cave of the ear is well suited, it cannot be compared to space of the nostrils mentioned by you, these do not help the sound to come through. These are just my own elaborations and not so important. Han: Your own elaboration is very good. I now fully appreciate that the cave of the ear (unlike the aperture of the nostril) is well suited for hearing. The external ear catches the sound and directs it through the ear canal to the middle ear and internal ear. It is a unique aperture that helps the hearing. Hence, Ven Buddhaghosa used the word vivara. But as you said it is not so important. I already told Connie that the case was closed more or less. But I thank both of you for your explanation about aakaasa-dhaatu. It is very useful as a separate subject on its own merit. Respectfully, Han #99071 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Dear Scott, KenH and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Ken and Alex, > > My computer is running again (no, really?) Regarding: > > A: "So do you try to tell me that you can equally well develop > satipatthana at marketplace or strip club as you would be able to do in physical seclusion?" > > K: "Yes, no doubt about it! Wherever you are right now is the best place for satipatthana development. In fact, it is the only place." > > Scott: Citta-viveka - mental seclusion - can, I think, establish >itself where ever, and is not dependent on 'location'. Yes, citta-viveka is mental seclusion. However, can a worldling have equal citta-viveka in A STRIP CLUB vs somewhere in a retreat? No. Part of the reasons why one has hindrances is outside causes. One is simply bound to have less lust (other factors being equal) if secluded and with little amount of food. The point of kaya-viveka is to set supportive conditions (separation from lust producing objects , etc) for citta-viveka (at least for a beginner). >I think this is the more relevant to us all - none of having >accumulations or understanding for suitable for jhaana. You can speak for yourself, but do you have telepathic powers to speak about others? With metta, Alex #99072 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 Dear Ken H and Alex, A: "...However, can a worldling have equal citta-viveka in A STRIP CLUB vs somewhere in a retreat?" Scott: The arising of citta-viveka, a function of citta and concomitant mental factors I think, is a purely mental phenonenon and, as such, is not, as I see it, dependent on either conventionally considered postures or locations. I don't think 'worldlings' these days - and that includes all of us - are much capable of these high levels of kusala, including jhaana. We can study about them though. I'll restate my opinion - but will not debate it - that the jhaana advocates I encounter have never entered the state, don't have the accumulations to do so, don't understand it, and, unless something else arises, won't be anytime soon. Just like, having never been to Venus, one tells everyone to go there because its so great. A: "No. Part of the reasons why one has hindrances is outside causes. One is simply bound to have less lust (other factors being equal) if secluded and with little amount of food." Scott: The hindrances are mental factors - naama. Food or thoughts of food, strippers or thoughts of strippers - irrelevant. Lust is the relevant mental factor. It can arise in a total sensory deprivation tank, with thought as object, I'd suggest (not that I've tried it but, maybe while I'm waiting for jhaana...) A: "The point of kaya-viveka is to set supportive conditions (separation from lust producing objects , etc) for citta-viveka (at least for a beginner)." Scott: With thinking ongoing, no matter where one is, the above is a specious argument. It all depends on the development of kusala, not on 'outside factors'. I'll stop here, with you, Alex, and leave the rest to Ken, but will look at some relevant texts to add to further your discussion - not for argument. Sincerely, Scott. #99073 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:50 pm Subject: Mental Mastery! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The 8 stages of Mental Mastery: The Blessed Buddha explained the gradual way to mental mastery: 1: Experiencing forms on one's own body, one visualizes small forms, as if they were external, (e.g. a tooth, a scar) both beautiful & ugly. When mastering these, one understands: Now I know, now I see... This is the first stage of mastery. (Beginning with familiar objects) 2: Experiencing forms on one's own body, one visualizes large forms, as if external, (e.g. a leg, a bone) beautiful or ugly. When mastering these, one understands: Now I know, now I see... This is the second stage of mastery. (Mastering form perception!) 3: Not experiencing any internal form, one visualizes small external forms. (e.g. a glass, a chair) beautiful or ugly. When mastering these, one understands: Now I know, now I see... This is the third stage of mastery. (Expanding object complexity!) 4: Not experiencing internal forms, one visualizes infinite external forms. (e.g. a galaxy, a universe) beautiful or ugly. When mastering these, one understands: Now I know, now I see... This is the fourth stage of mastery. (Mastering size perception!) 5: Not experiencing internal forms, one visualizes external forms. blue forms, forms of blue radiance, blue appearance, blue lustre. When mastering these, one understands: Now I know, now I see... This is the fifth stage of mastery. (Mastering colour perception!) 6: Not experiencing internal forms, one visualizes external forms. yellow forms, of yellow radiance, yellow appearance, yellow lustre. When mastering these, one understands: Now I know, now I see... This is the sixth stage of mastery. (First consolidating repeat!) 7: Not experiencing internal forms, one visualizes external forms. red forms, forms of red radiance, red appearance, and red lustre. When mastering these, one understands: Now I know, now I see... This is the seventh stage of mastery. (Second consolidating repeat) 8: Not experiencing internal forms, one visualizes external forms. white forms, white radiance, white appearance, white lustre. When mastering these, one understands: Now I know, now I see... This is the eighth stage of mastery. (3rd consolidating repeat!) More on Mental Mastery (Abhibhāyatana=Literally: Higher sphere): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/a/abhibhayatana.htm Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The 8 Stages of Mental Mastery! #99074 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Dear Scott, KenH, Nina and all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Ken H and Alex, > > A: "...However, can a worldling have equal citta-viveka in A STRIP CLUB vs somewhere in a retreat?" > > Scott: The arising of citta-viveka, a function of citta and >concomitant mental factors I think, It is good that you've said "I think" because >is a purely mental phenonenon and, as such, is not, as I see it, >dependent on either conventionally considered postures or >locations. So are you saying that lust has EQUAL CHANCE AND STRENGTH when it comes to arising in a Strip Club vs in physical solitude? >I don't think 'worldlings' these days - and that includes all of us >- are much capable of these high levels of kusala, including >jhaana. We can study about them though. How do you know that? Do you have the necessery abhinnas to scan the entire world and read all peoples, including all reclusive monks minds on the ability to enter Jhana? > > I'll restate my opinion - but will not debate it - that the jhaana advocates I encounter have never entered the state, don't have the accumulations to do so, don't understand it, and, unless something else arises, won't be anytime soon. Just like, having never been to Venus, one tells everyone to go there because its so great. > > A: "No. Part of the reasons why one has hindrances is outside causes. One is simply bound to have less lust (other factors being equal) if secluded and with little amount of food." > > Scott: The hindrances are mental factors - naama. Food or thoughts >of food, strippers or thoughts of strippers - irrelevant. Lust is >the relevant mental factor. It can arise in a total sensory >deprivation tank, with thought as object, I'd suggest (not that I've >tried it but, maybe while I'm waiting for jhaana...) It is true that person can daydream about strippers and porno experiences while in a cave. But where are the conditions more favourable for unwholesome thoughts of lust in a strip club or in a solitary retreat with minimum food? Why did the Buddha and his wealthy kinsmen had to become monks? If lay life, strip clubs and so on are NOT a hindrance then what is the point of celibacy? Why are all the vinaya rules against sex, masturbation, touching and so on? With metta, Alex #99075 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:40 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nichiconn Hi Scott, re: kaya viveka. Reckon in some ways you might say that's all the whole thing's about but I like these longish titles; like little meditations all on their own - Path of Discrimination, Schedule: 9. Mu~ncitukamyataapa.tisa"nkhaasanti.t.thanaa pa~n~naa sa"nkhaarupekkhaasu ~naa.na.m. IX. Understanding of desire for deliverance, of reflexion, and of composure, is knowledge of the kinds of equanimity about formations 10. Bahiddhaa vu.t.thaanaviva.t.tane pa~n~naa gotrabhu~naa.na.m. X. Understanding of emergence and turning away from the external is change-of-lineage knowledge 11. Dubhato vu.t.thaanaviva.t.tane pa~n~naa magge ~naa.na.m. XI. Understanding of emergence and turning away from both [the external and internal] is knowledge of the path peace, connie #99076 From: "connie" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:22 pm Subject: ...sometimes it's useful to consider one's own conceit. nichiconn Hi Phil, Just a couple quotes since you gave another Dhp 75 the other day. 1. Gogerly's: 74. (If he say), 'Let both priests and laymen regard me as the principal in every thing which has been accomplished, let them imitate me in all things which are to be done' :--by these thoughts the fool increases both his desires and his pride. 75. It is one thing to obtain (temporal) profit and another to attain to Nirvaana. The priest, the disciple of Buddha, fully understanding this, will not be desirous of receiving presents, but will seek retirement. End of Baala, or the Chapter of Folly. 2. Expositor 130: 'Tranquillity of the kaaya' {Dhs $$40, 41} is the calming of the three groups of mental factors (concomitant with consciousness); tranquillity of consciousness is the calming of mind. Kaaya here refers to the three aggregates - feeling, perception and mental activities.^7 These two states being taken together have the characteristic of pacifying the suffering of both mental factors and of consciousness; the function of crushing the suffering of both; the manifestation of an unwavering and cool state of both; and have mental factors and consciousness as proximate cause. They are the opponents of the corruptions, such as distraction, which cause the disturbance of mental factors and of consciousness. {p171 n7: Kaaya may mean (1) the body (S i 156); (2) the tactile sense; (3) bodily action; (4) any group, as here. -Ed.} 'Kaaya-lightness' is buoyancy of mental factors; citta-lightness is buoyancy of consciousness. {Dhs $$42, 43} 'Kaaya-plasticity' is plasticity of mental factors; citta-plasticity is plasticity of consciousness. {Dhs $$44, 45} They have the characteristic of suppressing the rigidity of mental factors and of consciousness; the function of crushing the same in both; the manifestation or effect of setting up no resistance; and have mental factors and consciousness as proximate cause. They are the opponents of the corruptions, such as opinionativeness and conceit, which cause mental rigidity. peace, connie #99077 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi Scott, KenH, Jon, Sarah, Nina and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Ken H and Alex, > I don't think 'worldlings' these days - and that includes all of us >- are much capable of these high levels of kusala, including >jhaana. We can study about them though. > > I'll restate my opinion - but will not debate it - that the jhaana >advocates I encounter have never entered the state, don't have the >accumulations to do so, don't understand it, and, unless something Lets talk about it, Scott. Buddha has awoken to (some translate "Discovered") Jhana SN 2.7 The prominent leader of another tradition (Jainism) doubted even the possibility of 2nd Jhana at all. SN 41.8 Bodhisatta remembered his Jhana experience after unsuccessful attempts at awakening using other, non N8P methods. MN36 The Buddha couldn't practice Jhana following a common practice of bodily mortification. Another extreme practice (of sensual gratification) also doesn't support Jhana. Bodily mortification & sensual indulgence were the two most common practices known to people of those times. Only the Middle Path, discovered by Buddha, supports Jhana and teaches Jhana as samma-samadhi. Proper meditation is about non-doing (through wise understanding of anicca,dukkha, anatta), disengaging self-views and relinquishing attachments. It is also needs to be a proper tune up to the signs & features that liberate oneself from unsatisfactory and ultimately unhappy things. "There's the case, friend Ananda, where beings do not discern, as it actually is present, that 'This perception has a share in decline'; 'This perception has a share in stability'; 'This perception has a share in distinction'; 'This perception has a share in penetration.' 1 This is the cause, this is the reason, why some beings do not become totally unbound in the present life." "There's the case, friend Ananda, where beings discern, as it actually is present, that 'This perception has a share in decline'; 'This perception has a share in stability'; 'This perception has a share in distinction'; 'This perception has a share in penetration.' This is the cause, this is the reason, why some beings become totally unbound in the present life." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.179.than.html We are lead by themes (nimitta) that tune us up to things that generally lead us to decline. on account of a nimitta, unwholesome qualities arise, not without an nimita.When that nimitta is removed, the unwholesome qualities don't exist. AN 1.82. Theme (nimitta) of beauty or [angry] repulsion causes lust or anger to arise, burn and overwhelm the mind with stress. Nimitta is also cause of 5 feeling classes pain, melancholy, pleasure, joy, & tranquility. SN 5.213. By properly disregarding unwholesome themes and training not to be misled by them, happiness can be achieved. "There are [sets of] two things that were perfectly proclaimed by the Lord" "The sign of calm and grasping the sign (samatha-nimittan ca paggaha-nimittan ca)." Sangiti Sutta (DN 33.1.9.24) "when he (she) has properly grasped some (absorption)-sign (samadhi-nimittam), has well considered it, applied his (her) mind to it (supadharitam) and has penetrated it with wisdom (suppatividdham pannaya). At this joy arises in him (her), and from this joy, delight; and by this delight his (her) senses are calmed, he (she) feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his (her) mind is established." (3) Sangiti Sutta (DN 33.2.1.25) Often unwholesome thoughts do happen due to inappropriate tuning in to this or that theme (nimitta). MN20. And as the sutta on "The Competent Cook" says, in order to have success in satipatthana one must be able to grasp, tune into the theme/sign (nimitta) SN 8 (8) . === When you sit down and close your eyes, you are temporarily relinquishing sights. When you sit in a place outside of smells and activity, you are relinquishing smells and things 'to do'. When you watch the breath and you don't control it, you are relinquishing that aspect of control. You refine the mind's awareness and can focus more and more on the arising & ceasing of mental states. The more the mind lets go, the deeper into peace and tranquillity the mind goes. The more control you try to do (Let me reach this or that Jhana! Where is awakening! I want to awaken) the more disturbed the meditation is. The meditation is a great place to see Anatta-in-action. Mental states are out of control. *I* cannot will this or that mind states. Hindrances happen regardless of the wish to the contrary. So what is left to do is to give up control. This giving up of control is anatta as well. But as the 'giving up' happens, hindrances start to fall away. The reasons for hindrances is the deluded Self view, and delusive Self feeling, Self intention, and Selfish intention to control. Sensual desire due to improperly tuning to a mind made subha-nimitta, anger due to tuning to patigha-nimitta, restlessness, and doubt may keep one from meditating at all! This just shows how much hindrances are in non-meditators. It takes a lot of relinquishment (through proper understanding) to be able to sit down and calm down the delusion of Self & The Doer and to pick up the samatha-nimitta. When there is Self delusion, there is 'doing' of this and that. You know dishes have to be washed, the garden needs to be taken care of, one has to "read the Abhidhamma to 'understand the realities'" so on and so forth. For many this is the example of doing, studying. Proper and succesful meditation is the ability to let go off doing. A very hard thing for some to do. Reading Abhidhamma for some can be an ego trip like [misused] meditation for some misguided mis-meditators. Remember, the Self (or control, or any doing) is not a factor, it is an obstacle for proper Buddhist, meditation. Reading as a path to awakening is similiar to Hindu Beliefs (ex: Jnana Yoga) while deep and proper meditation is exclusively Buddhist. Knowledge gained from books is like ideas the fish may have about dry land. Arguments about certain technicalities is like fish arguing with a turtle over what it is like to live on dry land. Turtle can crawl on land and live in the water as well. Turtle knows how the dry land is like and can only expirience deep pity and compassion for the arm-chair fishy speculations. The better, more useful understanding comes from seeing. Want to know how it is like to be without hindrances? Let them go and be aware. When they reaper and strangle your throat, by the difference you shall know. When the body disappears, happiness arises not of the flesh. When that happiness passes and body comes into your awareness, you will silently know just how burdensome it is. The disturbances in meditation are often due to inappropriate attention that goes to this or that outward sign & feature to which the mind engages. "If internally the intellect is intact and externally ideas come into range, but there is no corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when internally the intellect is intact and externally ideas come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness." [repeat the same for other 5 senses.] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html In Satipatthana samyutta there is passage that says that attention -> dhamma (as in mental qualities) Note the importance of not just the meeting for external & internal elements but volitional engagement as well. How does this relate to meditation? The reason we are disturbed by external sounds, bodily feelings, ideas and so on is because of attention (or conscious engagement) which is desire for these things. If one could temporary (at first) remove all the desire for these things, they would not produce corresponding type of consciousness that would kick you out of the bliss. Thus what needs to be done is to develop contentment, relinquishment, separation, disengagement which would lead to cessation of those consciousness and whatever hindrances that may arise. So the meditation should never be "lets wrestle and force out all distractions". This may cause samadhi headache but not awakening. Ultimately one cannot force the mind to be still, only deep contentment, tuning into samatha-nimitta and tuning out of unwholesome nimittas, and letting go can. When it comes to Sankharas (2nd link in DO) I think that this is important, meditation wise. Deep Samadhi states (from which wisdom grows) are temporary pacifications of Sankharas. The thing conditioning Sankharas is Avijja. Avijja paccaya sankaro. Thus success in Buddhist meditation is temporary switching off Avijja, and the more avijja you manage to temporarily shut off - the deeper the Jhana. And in these moments if one's observation powers are strong & sharp, when avijja is temporarily knocked out, one may see what avijja has concealed. Eventually this sneak peak, the look at the bottom of the ocean where the waters have parted (ala Moses), can lead to awakening. As long as there is Avijja, liberative wisdom cannot arise. Since avijja is conditioned, it is possible to temporary (at first) to disable it in deep meditations. Since it is avijja that conditions & feeds sankharas which are gradually switched off in Jhana, by suspending avijja the sankharas are suspended as well. Few pointers regarding anapanasati, a meditation that Buddha has praised and used: -Don't crave for the in/out breath that has not happened yet (this is greed). This was somewhere in Ptsm. on Anapanasati. In any case, if mind is coloured with sensual desire, that is a hindrance to impersonally seeing things as they have arisen. Greed (desire, longing, etc) can be for anything and during meditation one should try to remove as much of hindrances as possible. -Try not to be aversive to breath or whatever disturbance is happening while you are sitting. This is engaging the mind about how bad the breath is and just creates more disturbances that you are trying to remove! You are shooting yourself in a foot! This is why it is important to relax the body to pacify the bodily discomfort that can trigger aversion , and to be mindful of HOW the mind relates to the breath (or whatever object of meditation is) to avoid aversion. While keeping the mindfulness as sharp as possible do not try to control what happens, don't feed the delusion of "Self that can control the meditation [or anything else]". This is engaging with Self-View and thoughts. More engagement = less contentment and more distractions happening in the mind. The Self belief is not a factor, it is an obstacle. Controlling goes against Anatta. Anatta = no total control. Let go of all controling, manipulating and other self interactions during meditation. It is safe, it isn't driving Smile. Try to temporarily relinquish as much as possible. Only then will you go deeper. Try to be like a passanger in a car or in an airplane. Let go of the steering wheel and commanding Ego Mind. -The attention should not only be on the breath, but on the way the MIND relates to the breath. Mindfulness should be mindful and counter-act any hindrances that arise between the mind & the breath. Here is a danger in over concentrating on the breath itself to the exclusion of all else - you may miss the more important happening, the mental *reaction* to the breath. As long as there are hindrances, percieved or not, proper deep Meditations + insight cannot happen. This is crucial. There is nothing that special in the breath itself, but the mental reaction to the object is far more important. The more mind reacts to the breath (with like, dislike or controlling) the less quit and peaceful meditation is. You cannot use force to let go! Sometimes too much concentration on the breath itself may make one inattentive to desire or aversion or self delusion that the mind has. The one-pointedness achieved should not be "forced" . Tranquilize the restlessness, tranquilize the desire & discontent that causes the mind to wobble and "move" to other subjects. The more contentment you build and more you disengage, renounce, let-go - the less the mind engages in thinking, perceiving and willing. Contentedness with what is, during meditation is very important, crucial actually. This is one of the reasons why there needs to be piti-sukkha (through letting go and relinquishing the heavy burdens) happening. The more bliss one gets from the breath-meditation, the easier it is to maintain still one-pointedness of mind. Furthermore the more bliss of letting go one achieves the more incentive the mind has to let go of holding and the more one experientially sees 4 NT. Considering how much some have studied Dhamma, it would not be surprising that after deep Samadhi the mind would automatically incline to what it has studied before, drop the fetters and make the awakening happen. Remember there is no Self-Controller that can command awakening to happen. Awakening happens when the delusion of Self (and all its relations) is dispelled. The Self with all the things that Self must do, is what prevents from getting into deeper meditations. Sitting meditation is the best place to totally relinquish all doing & controlling, and let the mind sink into wonderful and blissful states. By blissing out due to LETTING GO the mind (not The Self) eventually and experimentially learns that there is higher happiness and the mind inclines toward that higher happiness. Also this is a mental skill (that is not yet developed), to let go, which is refined more and more during meditations and is conditioned into the mental stream. Eventually the new and better skill (to let go) is assimilated into the mental stream and eventually this "second nature" becomes the "natural" inclination of the mind. Eventually little by little, the mind relinquishes more and more until it learns the skill to let go of samsara for good - why? Because it is so peaceful & blissful to cease as all that arises is unsatisfactory and all that is lost is just pointless suffering. All that is of the nature to arise, ceases. If one holds to anything, that will cease and be lost (for sure). When nothing is held, nothing is lost. That is peaceful. Don't have a Self view. Do what the Buddha has awakened to SN 2.7, Meditate! Do Jhana! Some talk about "just be aware!" , "bare awareness" and "just be be mindful". But how would you respond, if lets say, you were a rich person who has hired a bodyguard and told him to "be mindful" . Then the rich guy is assaulted, robbed and mugged while the big and beefy bodyguard just watches mindfully and attentively. The rich guy screams "What the HELL! Didn't I tell you to be mindful?!" to which the bodyguard would respond: "But Mr., I was mindful! I observed how the bad guy ran up to you from behind. I kept uninterrupted attention on how he hit you with a wrench and took your wallet and raced away". What would you do? You'd fire this incompetent bodyguard. It is akin to how mindfulness (sati) is being taught today. Just mindful awareness of being raped by incoming defilements. Who needs this? Mindfulness should remember that whenever hindrance arises it only arises toward vinnana&namarupa. The hindrances are anicca, dukkha, anatta and the mind should not engage in sensual pleasures and other hindrances. When the mind forgets (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and it wonders in the wrong pasture, it must be reminded with Sati ASAP. The hindrances (especially sensual desire, ill will, restlessness, & doubt) are due to inappropriate attention, inappropriate doing of the deluded mind. Sati must remember to counteract this with vijja. "[1] "There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining hindrances: ill will, sloth & drowsiness, restlessness & anxiety, and uncertainty.)" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html So even within anapanasati proper, there is a lot of wisdom and satipatthana involved. One must remember what is right attention and what is wrong attention and one must remember to disengage from improper attention and improper them as soon as arises. Whenever a hindrance (which may be due to mind-made signs) arises and remains - at that time it is lack of mindfulness. Mindfulness and hindrance cannot coexist if it is the right mindfulness vs "drop the soap in a prison shower" mindfulness. The hindrance doesn't arise from 0% to 100% in 2 moments. There are a lot of stages in between and if one's mindfulness is sharp it can remember (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and disengage, let go, renounce, and return to proper attention of the breath and whatever namarupa is that arises at that moment. One of the reasons for sitting, with eyes closed, etc etc is that the observation that is happening is much clearer that way and the eye faculty is restrained from grasping what can be a basis of improper themes. When you are doing the dishes or going around the daily business, generally the things happen TOO quickly for most people to observe. When the fan is spinning fast you cannot see its blades. Very often, especially in todays high paced society, too many things are happening and attention is simply overwhelmed. Furthermore in deep samadhi as you are letting go of 5 senses and gradually stopping the 6th one you can see it much better. Allow me to explain: 6 senses are like 6 tv sets showing different channels. When you sit with eyes closed, away from noise, away from kitchen, not paying attention to other senses you are allowing to see that one or few senses which is left (tactile & mind) much better. When one tv is working and 5 others are switched off, you can pay more attention to that tv channel better. Of course this level of samadhi isn't something that is possible or desireble to reach when you are in the kitchen cutting vegetables. Of course when the 5 senses are more and more disabled, more attention, more mindfulness can focus on the mind and how it is misled by mind made signs. Another thing: When lets say thinking suddenly disappears (when you reach Jhana) and then it reappears it allows you to witness its impermanence, and as we know the insight into impermanence is crucial. Here is the thing: We all, including all unawakened non-Buddhist & heretics see that thoughts are impermanent along with 5 sense objects. Yet why don't we all automatically see dukkha and anatta? Why aren't we becoming Arahants? Seeing impermanence means much more than simply observing that thoughts rise & pass away in a mundane sense. The avijja (fed by the hindrances) gives us blind spots and makes us overlook crucial things. When one does "samatha" the hindrances that block the vision are suppressed thus washing the dirt smeared glasses of "vipassana". Furthermore by going deep into meditation on experiences bliss, and the deeper one goes the more bliss & peace there is. This awesome experience can make an inquiring person ask, "why was it so peaceful?" It was peaceful because parts of samsara has vanished for the duration of meditation. The more parts of samsara has temporarily vanished, the more peace there is. Eventually as one gains more mastery of this samatha, the mind (NOT THE SELF!) learns that it is better to let go of samsara and eventually the fetters are dropped because the mind (which always prefers happiness with minimum effort) see and calculates that the new skill is much better than the old one (tanha, upadana, believing in a doer & a knower, etc). The conditioned mental process, through direct experience, recognizes the truth that matters, and the mindfulness task is to remember to behave in a new and better way. Mindfulness remembers the anicca, dukkha, anatta of namarupa (first 3 satipatthanas) and that it is BLISSFUL to let go, renounce, not-to cling, not to misinterpret reality as (self, beauty, permanence, or happiness). All of the above is 100% conditioned process with no on in control. One cannot will the above to happen. It happens when the conditions are right. ======== "The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness." - SN22.5 They will surely reach the far shore [Nibbana] like a fish when the net is cut, Who having attained the jhanas, are diligent with flaws discarded." - SN 2.11 Jhana IS the path to awakening - MN36 Jhana Is what Buddha awakened to. AN9.42 & SN2.7 Jhana Is Practiced by awakened ones: Dhp 23 Jhana Leads to 4 fruits: From Stream to Arhatship. (DN29) Jhana Is Right Concentration - SN 45.8 Ending of Mental Fermentations depend on Jhana - AN 9.36 Samadhi is proximate condition to "knowledge and vision of things as they really are" - SN12.23 Samadhi -> seeing rise & fall of 5 aggregates (which is wisdom) SN 22.5 Samadhi -> wisdom Samadhi is the path - AN 6.64 Jhana is the only 4 Meditative absorptions thay Buddha praised. -MN108 Jhana goes together with discernment (panna): Dhp 372 Jhana Is a mark of a great discernment, great man - AN4.35 Jhana is the escape from confinement. AN 9.42 Released through Panna (Pannavimutti) = Jhanas 1-9 AN 9.44 7 Parts of Noble 8Fold path are support for Jhana- MN117 Jhana + discernment is a single thing that can lead one to Arhatship - AN 11.17 The Buddha has recomended Jhana for trainees - MN107 It is *impossible* to break 5 lower and 5 upper fetters without Jhana (and insight after it). - MN64. Jhana are 4 of 6 stations of mindfulness (anussatithana) AN 3.322 Udayin sutta iii, 320, VI, iii, 29 (the other 2 are alokasanna & 31 body parts). "Thus, verily, monks, concentration is the way, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo" AN6.64 "Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." - MN152 With metta, Alex #99078 From: "Chew" Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:19 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) chewsadhu Dear Han, Nina, and Connie, Nina: The Sutta speaks about space of the auditory orifices and the other holes and openings of the body. Space in the ear is one of the conditions for hearing [1]. We attach great importance to internal space and we take it for "mine" or self, but it is only a rpa element. -------- footnote 1: Atthaslin II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 314. Space in the ear or the nose is space that is not conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition; it is unconditioned rpa. --------- Chew: There are space in conventional sense and space in ultimate sense. Let's define "space in ultimate sense" refers to space-element (aakaasa dhaatu). Aakaasa dhaatu is anipphannaruupa, which mean they do not arise directly from the four main causes of matter. But aakaasa dhaatu is anicca. There is no permanent space. Let's define "space in the ear", "space of the nostrils" or "space in the cave" as "space in conventional sense", which is concept. So, they are unconditioned. But, this concept is referring to a mass of ruupa, a mass of inseparable matter (avinibbhogaruupa) or sometimes also include sound nonad (saddhnavaka) and also space-element (aakaasa dhaatu). This is the reason why Ven Buddhaghosa did not use the word aakaasa dhaatu instead of vivara. If one close one's ear with both hand and breath heavily, one is able to listen to that sound, and know that it is from "space of the nostrils". Because eye and ear are regarded as sense organs that do not reach or touch (asampatta) their respective objects. Those "space in conventional sense" are called vivara, which the term is used by Ven Buddhaghosa. (Please let me know if I am wrong.) With respect, Chew #99079 From: han tun Date: Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:54 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) hantun1 Dear Chew, > Chew: There are space in conventional sense and space in ultimate sense. Let's define "space in ultimate sense" refers to space-element (aakaasa dhaatu). Aakaasa dhaatu is anipphannaruupa, which mean they do not arise directly from the four main causes of matter. But aakaasa dhaatu is anicca. There is no permanent space. Let's define "space in the ear", "space of the nostrils" or "space in the cave" as "space in conventional sense", which is concept. So, they are unconditioned. But, this concept is referring to a mass of ruupa, a mass of inseparable matter (avinibbhogaruupa) or sometimes also include sound nonad (saddhnavaka) and also space-element (aakaasa dhaatu). This is the reason why Ven Buddhaghosa did not use the word aakaasa dhaatu instead of vivara. If one close one's ear with both hand and breath heavily, one is able to listen to that sound, and know that it is from "space of the nostrils". Because eye and ear are regarded as sense organs that do not reach or touch (asampatta) their respective objects. Those "space in conventional sense" are called vivara, which the term is used by Ven Buddhaghosa. (Please let me know if I am wrong.) =============== Han: You know more than me on this topic. What you wrote is educational for me, and I benefit. Although I cannot provide any comments on what you have written, Nina and Connie may have something to say. Kind regards, Han #99080 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:40 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 11. nilovg Dear friends, What is hindering us now? Are there not nma and rpa, right at this moment? There is impingement of hardness or softness on the bodysense, wherever we are. Hardness is a paramattha dhamma, an absolute reality, but when there is no awareness we do not know it as a reality. We may be thinking of hardness but that is not awareness. When sati-sampajaa arises the characteristic of hardness can be studied without there being the need to think about it. It can be known as a reality which is conditioned. It does not belong to anyone; we cannot change it, we cannot do anything about it. One may think that awareness is too difficult, one may believe that one should first go to a quiet place. Why is that? Because one expects many moments of awareness and immediate clear comprehension. We should let go of expectations. If we have listened to the Dhamma and if we have understood the way to develop right understanding of nma and rpa, there are conditions for the arising of awareness. After a moment of awareness there are bound to be countless moments of unawareness since we accumulated ignorance for aeons. How could we get rid of it within a short time? If we think that awareness in daily life is too difficult we create a hindrance for the development of right understanding. If there is a beginning of the development of understanding now it can be accumulated. If that would be impossible there would be no ariyans who have realized the truth. They have proved that there are no impediments to the development of right understanding in daily life. ******* Nina #99081 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau Hi Howard, Up until this point in our conversation I thought we were basically in agreement: ----- KL: > The place we go to - whether it is a busy market place or a secluded forest - is immaterial. H: > That's just not so, and the Buddha didn't mention specific sorts of places just "for the hell of it." C'mon, Ken! ----- I agree he mentioned the isolated places that jhana developers went to. (They were already going there long before the Buddha was born. So he didn't need to teach them to do it.) But I happen to believe that the Buddha taught one thing - right understanding of the presently arisen paramattha dhamma. Whatever that dhamma was! And so my opinions are bound to sound a bit ridiculous quite a lot of the time. Ask Alex. Apparently everything I say contradicts the plain, obvious teachings of the Buddha. -------------- H: > If you wish to study suttas or Abhidhamma, you would choose a library or your quiet living room or study rather than, for example, a stadium where people are watching a sports competition, would you not? Are you entirely out of touch, or are you just arguing for arguing's sake? ---------------- I believe that 'going to a library' or 'going to a teacher' (etc) are just concepts. As with all concepts they are, at best, "shadows" of the conditioned dhammas that actually exist. There is no control over conditioned dhammas, and, ultimately there is no control over their shadows either. Just the appearance of control. -------------------------- KH: > The only thing that matters is the state of mind that motivates going there. H: > And external conditions affect that. They affect what is possible! --------------------------- I don't see it that way. If concepts could have just the slightest efficacy, they could have total efficacy. It has to be one or the other. Either there are only dhammas or there are only concepts. ------------------------------------------ <. . .> H: > It seems to me that you have a big disconnect between theory and practice and that you skip over teachings of the Buddha that make you uncomfortable. I suppose most of us do the latter to some extent, but at least we should be aware of it. ---------------------------------------- If there are only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas, how could practice involve going anywhere? Where would there be to go? ----------- KH: > Until we *can* know kusala from akusala, we should just go about our normal daily routines. H: > And you do not know one from the other? Frankly I don't believe it. What I do believe is that you want to consider yourself a Buddhist, but all you want to do in that regard is read about it, though skipping over the "uncomfortable parts". ------------ The only part of me that I regard as Buddhist is any glimmer of right understanding there might be of the presently arisen dhammas. Any other kind of a Buddhist would be strictly of the ceremonial variety. Ken H #99082 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau Hi Alex, ----------------- <. . .> A: > So are you saying that a person can develop wholesome states of mind with the same efficiency when being in a STRIP CLUB (or watching porn, or being a hired killer to wipe the earth off people who are enemies of the "Democratic Free World" ????? ------------------ Yes, because, no matter what the conceptual reality may be, there are really only conditioned dhammas. Visible object, seeing-consciousness, audible object, . . . are the same anywhere. Just fleeting, soulless phenomena. ------------ A: > I can't believe it.... ------------- Can you believe that Angulimalia attained enlightenment while trying to kill the Buddha? Surely that was a million times worse than any of the examples you have listed. Ken H #99083 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:30 am Subject: seclusion, viveka. nilovg Dear Alex and Jon, I came across some texts that may be of interest to you with regard to your discussions about seclusion. We read in the anapanasati sutta (transl by ven. Nyanatiloka): The same is stated about the other enlightenment factors With regard to the word seclusion (viveka), which is seclusion from defilements, we read about the meaning in the Co to the Root of Existence (Mulapariyaya sutta, as tr. by Ven. Bodhi)that there are five kinds of seclusion, or abandoning: by substitution of opposite factors(tadanga pahana), by suppression (in jhana), by eradication (by the four paths), by tranquillization ( by the four fruitions) and by escape (nibbana). As regards abandoning by substitution of opposite factors (tadanga pahana), this occurs during the development of the stages of insight. The personality view is abandoned by the first stage of insight: defining nama and rupa, distinquishing their different characteristics, and by each of the higher stages there is abandoning by opposite factors. As to the words of the sutta, fading away (viraga) and cessation (nirodha), these have the same meaning as seclusion, viveka. As to the words, resulting in relinquishment, as the Visuddhimagga VIII, 236) explained, this is relinquishment as giving up (of defilements) and as entering into nibbana. We read: we read that also the path is called both relinquishment as giving up and relinquishment as entering into. ****** Nina. #99084 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space. Physical Phenomena (33) nilovg Dear Chew (and Sarah), Op 12-jul-2009, om 6:19 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > Let's define "space in the ear", "space of the nostrils" or "space > in the cave" as "space in conventional sense", which is concept. ------- N: I used to think that, but in Bgk I discussed with Khun Sujin and Sarah about this difficult subject. The space that is pariccheda ruupa, separating the different groups of ruupa is a conditioned ruupa. But there is also space all around, space we walk through, and this is not a concept as I understood from this discussion. It is not the same as pariccheda ruupa separating groups of ruupas of the body, that can be conditioned, by kamma, citta, nutrition or temperature. I asked about space in the ear etc. and also this is not a concept, but real space. Sarah made a specific study and it is good if she can refere to this. She referred to different texts. Nina. #99085 From: han tun Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:01 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) hantun1 Dear Nina (Chew, Sarah), I have studied the definition of aakaasa-dhaatu as per Visuddhimagga XIV, 63 (1) The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Ruupa-pariccheda lakkha.naa aakaasa-dhaatu. (2) Its function is to display the boundaries of matter. Ruupa-pariyatappakaasana rasaa. [pariyanta = limit] [pakaasana = to display] (3) It is manifested as the confines of matter; or it is manifested as untouchedness, as the state of gaps and apertures. Ruupa-mariyaadaa-paccupa.t.thaanaa. Asamphu.t.thbhaavacchiddavivarabhaava-paccupa.t.thaanaa. [mariyaadaa = boundary, limit] [asamphu.t.tha bhaava = state of untouchedness] [chidda vivara bhaava = state of gaps and apertures] (4) Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. Paricchinnaruupa-pada.t.thaanaa. Han: There is a proximate cause for aakaasa-dhaatu as per above definition. But in chapter 7 of your book, Note 5 states that: [Space in the ear or the nose is space that is not conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition; it is unconditioned ruupa.] I was about to ask you how I can understand these two different statements. But just now, I read your reply to Chew: N: I used to think that, but in Bgk I discussed with Khun Sujin and Sarah about this difficult subject. The space that is pariccheda ruupa, separating the different groups of ruupa is a conditioned ruupa. But there is also space all around, space we walk through, and this is not a concept as I understood from this discussion. It is not the same as pariccheda ruupa separating groups of ruupas of the body, that can be conditioned, by kamma, citta, nutrition or temperature. I asked about space in the ear etc. and also this is not a concept, but real space. Sarah made a specific study and it is good if she can refere to this. She referred to different texts. I now think I know. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #99086 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:41 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 Dear connie, Regarding: c: "re: kaya viveka. Reckon in some ways you might say that's all the whole thing's about but I like these longish titles; like little meditations all on their own - Path of Discrimination, Schedule: IX. Understanding of desire for deliverance, of reflexion, and of composure, is knowledge of the kinds of equanimity about formations...X. Understanding of emergence and turning away from the external is change-of-lineage knowledge...XI. Understanding of emergence and turning away from both [the external and internal] is knowledge of the path" Scott: Cool. Seclusion as result, not technique. I like Sammohavinodanii (Vol II, pp. 33-34): "1544. ...Vivekanissita.m ('dependent on seclusion') = viveke nissita.m. Seclusion is secludedness; it is fivefold, namely seclusion through substitution of opposites (tada.ngaviveka), through suppression (vikkhambhana), cutting off (samuccheda), tranquillisation (pa.tipassadhi) and renunciation (nissara.na). "1545. Herein, seclusion through substitution of opposites is insight; seclusion through suppression is the eight attainments; seclusion through cutting off is the path; seclusion through tranquillisation is fruition; seclusion through renunciation is nibbaana, which has renounced all signs. This is the meaning to be understood. "1546. For this yogin who is devoted to the practice of development of mindfulness awakening factor thus develops the mindfulness awakening factor at the moment of insight dependent on seclusion through substitution of opposites as to function, and dependent on seclusion through renunciation as to inclination; but at the time of the path [he develops it] dependent on seclusion through cutting off as to function, and dependent on seclusion through renunciation as to object. "1547. Some [say:] 'It is also dependent on the fivefold seclusion.' For they assume the awakening factor not only at the moment of strong insight, path and fruition, but they also assume [it] in kasi.na jhaana, respiration, 'foul' and Divine Abode jhaana which is the basis for insight; and they are not contradicted by the teachers of the commentaries. Therefore, according to their opinion, at the moment of insight it depends upon the seclusion of renunciation as to inclination, so it is correct to say that 'he develops it dependent also on the seclusion of tranquillisation'." Sincerely, Scott. #99087 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:04 am Subject: Re: seclusion, viveka. scottduncan2 Dear Nina (Alex and Jon), Regarding: N: "I came across some texts ... there are five kinds of seclusion, or abandoning..." Scott: I found also a quote which dovetails into these: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/99086 Sincerely, Scott. #99088 From: "Chew" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:22 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) chewsadhu Dear Nina, Han, Sarah, Connie, --- Nina: The space that is pariccheda ruupa, separating the different groups of ruupa is a conditioned ruupa. --- Chew: The space here you are referring to aakaasa-dhaatu. So, it is a conditioned ruupa. But, it does not arise directly from the four main causes of matter (kammaja, cittaja, utuja, and aahaaraja), solely exist as modalities or attributes of concretely produced matter (nipphannaruupa). --- Nina: But there is also space all around, space we walk through, and this is not a concept as I understood from this discussion. It is not the same as pariccheda ruupa separating groups of ruupas of the body, that can be conditioned, by kamma, citta, nutrition or temperature. I asked about space in the ear etc. and also this is not a concept, but real space. --- Chew: When you mentioned "this is not a concept", which means it definitely fall into one of the ultimate realities (citta, cetasika, ruupa, or nibbaana). Since it is "space all around, space we walk through", then it is not only the space-elements (aakaasa-dhaatu) that fill up all the "space". What are they? [Tatta suddhat.t.haka.m saddhnavaka~n caa ti dve utusamut.t.haana-kalaapaa bahiddhaa pi labbhanti. Avasesaa pana sabbe pi ajjhattikam eva.] Of them, the two material groups produced by temperature the pure octad and the sound nonad are found externally too. All the rest are strictly internal. Earlier, I defined "space in the ear", "space of the nostrils" or "space in the cave" as "space in conventional sense", which is concept. It is just like, in conventional sense "human beings" are concept; in ultimate sense, it is naama-ruupa. Other than mind (naama), matter (ruupa), nibbaana, concept (pa~n~natti), what else we can find. That's why I continued with "this concept is referring to a mass of ruupa, a mass of inseparable matter (avinibbhogaruupa) or sometimes also include sound nonad (saddhnavaka) and also space-element (aakaasa dhaatu)." Here, I define it as a concept of the real (vijjamaanapa~n~natti). When you mentioned "space in the ear" as "real space", which means it is conditioned thing (sankata). They have the three universal characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta). What are the things that can be conditioned? They are citta, cetasika, and ruupa. Two dhamma cannot be conditioned, which are Nibbaana and Pa~n~natti. The space in between kalaapa-ruupa is also exist as a ruupa. It arises and falls. It is not nothingness. The space of our "walking path" is also not nothingness. Otherwise, it seems something exist permanently. That's why space-element (aakaasa dhaatu) is also one of the 28 ruupa, otherwise one may hold the view of "permanent space". Regarding the quote from Atthaslin II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 314. "Space in the ear or the nose is space that is not conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition; it is unconditioned rpa." Firstly, what are the dhamma that are not able to be conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition? The possible dhamma are only non-concretely produced matter (anipphannaruupa), nibbaana, or concept (pa~n~natti). Then where shall we put the "space in the ear, etc" under? It is definitely not nibbaana. Then it must be either non-concretely produced matter (anipphannaruupa) or concept (pa~n~natti). Then for sure, non-concretely produced matter cannot exist by itselves. Because they only exist as modalities or attributes of concretely produced matter (nipphannaruupa). If based on "Space in the ear or the nose is space that is not conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition", then it must not be non-concretely produced matter too, because that statement ignores the matter produced by causes. Then the remaining is concept (pa~n~natti). And concept is also unconditioned. Secondly, the last part of the statement "it is unconditioned rpa". It tells you, it is ruupa, but it is unconditioned. Then the word "unconditioned", I is possible to mean matter that cannot be produced by the four causes. Which is also referring to non-concretely produced matter (anipphannaruupa). But this understanding may cause problem to the previous explanation. If we understand the word "unconditioned" as "asankhata", then the only possible dhamma for "asankhata" are only nibbaana and concept. Since it cannot be nibbaana, then the remaining is concept. I am so sorry to my long explanation. Stop sharing at here. Thanks and Sadhu to all of you. I really enjoy and appreciate to study together with all of you. May all beings be well and happy. Respectfully, Chew #99089 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:24 am Subject: Re: 1st Jhaana Qu. scottduncan2 Dear connie, Regarding: c: "Dear Meditation Faction, Is it true that there are 34 mental factors involved in first jhaana? Would you mind telling me what they are?" Scott: I've been catching up and saw this wee post. No decent answer for a very good question. For me, I'm reminded of the complexity of the whole thing. That jhaana is kusula is not to be doubted. That jhaana requires a great deal of development is always minimized. I read impressionistic and anecdotal reports of 'experience' by meditators so imbued with self as to be chalked up to self-hypnosis. The main give-away is that these experiences are described by memory and suggest an ongoing conventional awareness of them throughout - as if jhaana was like going to a movie. And speaking of hysteria, a pseudo-seizure is often shown to be what it is when the one reporting the seizure describes his or her ongoing consciousness during the event - there is no conventional 'consciousness' during a true seizure. And even when describing the factors of jhaana, 'meditators' often sound like fine wine afficionados, as they describe shifts of mental states and an exercise of 'conscious' control over shifting mental states. Anyway, good point. Sincerely, Scott. #99090 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:40 am Subject: Re: 1st Jhaana Qu. philofillet Hi Connie, Scott and all I'll try not to be troll-like. I'm interested in the below because I often wonder whether one needs to know all the cetasikas involved to still develop the kusala cittas that carry, if you will, the cetasikas, that are accompanied by them. I wonder if one could say "if you follow a recipe and cook a nutritious meal, can you tell me all the specific nutritional factors, all the vitamins and minerals involved?" Do you need to? Is that a useful comparison? I don't know. But I do find myself wondering whether it is necessary to know all mental factors that are involved in kusala mind states in order to develop those mind states. I know the answer according to DSG is yes, of course it is necessary, and DSG might be right - or not. I can't ascribe (what does ascribe mean anyways?) to a Dhamma that says kusala mind states are exceedingly rare because of all the mental factors that must accompany them. That Dhamma does not make sense because if it were true the world would be swept up in chaos, each and every one of us, so to speak. I have heard Abhidhamma taught (by Burmese Sayadaws) that certainly does not state that kusala states are rare. (I know that you are talking about jhanas here, but I bring this point up because I have often seen it in Nina's book, the extreme rarity of kusala.) If it *is* the true Dhamma (that kusala must be exceedingly rare) I will trollop along with my counterfeit Dhamma, seeking human rebirth and possible access to the truer Dhamma next time around when there are conditions for me to truly understand it rather than ascribe without belief. Troll out. As usual I won't be responding, sorry. phil p.s thanks connie for your post the other day, and Jon and others perhaps. Sorry for not responding. p.p.s I'll leave off my "metta" until there are conditions to participate properly. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear connie, > > Regarding: > > c: "Dear Meditation Faction, > Is it true that there are 34 mental factors involved in first jhaana? Would you mind telling me what they are?" > > Scott: I've been catching up and saw this wee post. No decent answer for a very good question. > #99091 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:31 am Subject: Re: 1st Jhaana Qu. scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Regarding: P: "I'm interested in the below because I often wonder whether one needs to know all the cetasikas involved to still develop the kusala cittas that carry, if you will, the cetasikas, that are accompanied by them. I wonder if one could say 'if you follow a recipe and cook a nutritious meal, can you tell me all the specific nutritional factors, all the vitamins and minerals involved?' Do you need to? Is that a useful comparison? I don't know. But I do find myself wondering whether it is necessary to know all mental factors that are involved in kusala mind states in order to develop those mind states. I know the answer according to DSG is yes, of course it is necessary, and DSG might be right - or not." Scott: As I see it, jhaana consists of a specific set of dhammaa, and no others. And, one level of jhaana differs from another based on the absence of some of these particular dhammaa. How can jhaana be 'achieved' if these dhammaa are not known to be present (or absent)? No one can think about the presence or absence of these jhaana factors. Sati, I would suggest, must play a role, and sa~n~naa, etc. (but I don't know - I don't play at it). The recipe analogy is full of self, as I see it. Wrong. P: "I can't ascribe (what does ascribe mean anyways?) to a Dhamma that says kusala mind states are exceedingly rare because of all the mental factors that must accompany them. That Dhamma does not make sense because if it were true the world would be swept up in chaos, each and every one of us, so to speak. I have heard Abhidhamma taught (by Burmese Sayadaws) that certainly does not state that kusala states are rare. (I know that you are talking about jhanas here, but I bring this point up because I have often seen it in Nina's book, the extreme rarity of kusala.)" Scott: Phil, for crying out loud, the world is chaos, man! Which world do you live in? No matter, though. It's always been so. Isn't that what the Dhamma addresses? Jhaana is a very, very difficult thing to 'achieve'. That it is to be achieved by deliberately applying a recipe-like, step-wise process shows the level of misunderstanding extant today. P: "If it *is* the true Dhamma (that kusala must be exceedingly rare) I will trollop along with my counterfeit Dhamma, seeking human rebirth and possible access to the truer Dhamma next time around when there are conditions for me to truly understand it rather than ascribe without belief." Scott: It isn't you, Phil. Its just by conditions that it seems this way to you. I don't read the texts to ever suggest that following a 'counterfeit Dhamma' can lead anywhere, really. Counterfeit Dhamma is not Dhamma. Seeking anything is missing the point. Luckily, in spite of 'ourselves' there will be kusala from time to time, and maybe even awareness of it and more. You'll be back. You can't stop yourself. Its a compulsion. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #99092 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Alex, and all) - In a message dated 7/11/2009 7:54:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: I'll restate my opinion - but will not debate it - that the jhaana advocates I encounter have never entered the state, don't have the accumulations to do so, don't understand it, and, unless something else arises, won't be anytime soon. Just like, having never been to Venus, one tells everyone to go there because its so great. ============================= Khun Sujin and Nina write about jhanas, passing on useful traditional information, but I believe have not entered jhanas. There are others such as Ven Henepola Gunaratana who both teach and attain. There are, I am led to believe, yet others who attain jhanas with a degree of mastery but don't talk much or at all about it. And, of course there are also those who doubt that jhana attainment is possible and/or consider it unimportant anyway. (The Buddha, however, considered it very important, and he repeatedly urged it.) As for "the jhana advocates" you encounter, how in the world do you know that they do not the enter jhanas, that they lack "the accumulations to do so," and they don't understand jhana and are unlikely to do so anytime soon? You would have to know those folks very, very well, I think. If you have in mind some of the folks on this list whom you have never met in person, it seems to me that you don't know them nearly well enough unless you are a superb psychic. (No need to answer. I understand that you don't wish to debate this, and that's fine with me as well, because with us debate so quickly turns to dispute.) For me, it is simply encouraging that folks get somewhere with the jhanas, and I am sorry that this is not your feeling as well. If I never master the jhanas, I am happy that others can, and I find it encouraging in several ways. I do intend to cultivate jhanas, though, insofar as is possible for me, because I believe that it is to the good and that the Buddha did urge this. My own experience with jhanas is ridiculously limited. It is such a tip-of-the-iceberg one as to be close to nil, but it was enough to provide genuine confidence in the reality of jhana states, and I think that is to the good. The Buddha taught "ehipassiko," and I think that is a really good idea. The Buddha taught that this is how saddha is properly cultivated. At the moment, my meditation practice is "on the upswing" a bit, having returned to the mantra (Pali 'manta') meditation that once before did, very briefly, lead me to "stumble into" jhanas. I have now switched back to that after thinking over the anapanasati practice I've been engaged in for a very long time. I have realized that sticking with breath meditation, and not going to the mantra meditation that served me very well in the past due to my inclination towards sound, is actually a mild form of clinging to rite and ritual - almost a matter of superstition. Long ago, when it first became clear to me that the Dhamma was the way for me, I gave up the meditation that had been working so well for me and switched over to the "Buddhist meditation" centered on breathing. Perhaps, at first, it was a matter of "Let's see how that is!", but continuing with it long after seeing that I had been doing better previously just because breath meditation is "Buddhist" was just plain superstitious. So, now I've returned to my earlier meditation practice, and again it is clear that I am well suited to it. For me "it works," and that, I think, is important. With metta, Howard Hindrances /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & anxiety, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/ (From the Avarana Sutta) #99093 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (33) nilovg Dear Chew, Op 12-jul-2009, om 14:22 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > I am so sorry to my long explanation. Stop sharing at here. ----- N: Thank you. I want to think it over again and compare with Sarah's articles on space. She also quoted from the Milinda Panhaa. She is just back to Hongkong and let us wait for her comments. Thank you meanwhile. Nina. #99094 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:13 am Subject: space, part 1. nilovg Dear Chew, I just quote some parts of Sarah's articles on space. As you also said about the pariccheda ruupa: Sarah: ------- (end quote) Nina. #99095 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:14 am Subject: space, continued. Part 2. nilovg Dear Chew, continuation of Sarah's article. contd. - final 3. Asankhata Dhammas (Unconditioned dhammas) ..................................... So, actually, there are 3 asankhata dhammas: a) pa~n~natti (concepts), b) aakaasa (space) [an-antaakaasa, not pariccheda aakaasa] c) nibbana. In the Melinda Pa~nha[12], it is said that there are "two things not born of kamma, hetu (cause) nor of physical change". These are aakaasa and nibbana. This refers to the second definition of aakaasa (above). Also when references are to boundless and immeasurable space, they are to this kind of space. Again in Milinda Pa~nha in the same chapter [13], Nagasena says: "Whatever beings are cognisant, sire, all these are born of kamma. Fire and everything born of seeds are born of cause. The earth and the mountains and water and wind are all born of physical change. Aakaasa and nibbaana - these two - are not born of kamma, not born of cause, not born of physical change." Another interesting quote with reference to the asankhata aakaasa is in another section [14]: "Reverend Naagasena, when you say that eleven special qualities of aakaasa are present in nibbaana, what are the eleven qualities of aakaasa that are present in nibbaana?" "As, sire, aakaasa is not born, does not age, does not die, does not decease (here), does not arise (elsewhere), is hard to master, cannot be carried off by thieves, depends on nothing (anissata), is the sphere of birds (vihagamana - lit. goes through the air), without obstruction, unending, even so, sire, is nibbaana, not born, does not age, does not die, does not decease, does not arise, is hard to master, cannot be carried off by thieves, depends on nothing, is the sphere of ariyans, without obstruction, unending. These, sire, are the eleven special qualities of aakaasa that are present in nibbaana." Other references in Milinda Pa~nha are to "air established on space" and the five qualities of space to be adopted [15]. The fourth one refers to how space is unending, boundless and immeasurable and this is how our moral habits and knowledge should be! ****** In conclusion, when reading the texts, we need to be clear as to whether it's the conditioned or unconditioned space element that is being referred to and also to appreciate that while space is referred to with the use of concepts, there is also the reality of space element which manifests in two different ways. ******** [1] Mahaaraahulavaada Sutta, MN62 (~Naanamoli, Bodhi translation) [2] Compendium Manual of Abhidhamma, (translation of Abhidhammattha Sangaha), edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi (CMA), Ch VIII, Compendium of Conditions, Guide to #30 [3] Survey of Paramattha Dhammas by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Ch 4 [4] CMA, Ch VI, Compendium of Matter, Guide to #4 [5] The Commentary to Abhidhammattha Sangaha, (PTS), translated by Wijeratne & Gethin, Ch VI, Materiality [6] The Visuddhimagga, ~Naanamoli translation, Ch XV111, 16 [7] The Dhammasangani, translated by Khine, Element Of Space (Ruupa Ka.nda) [8] The Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV [9] The Atthasaalini, PTS translation, 'The Expositor' II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 326, Derived Material Qualities, definition of space- element [10] Mahaaraahulavaada Sutta [11] Dhatuuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140, http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/ 2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/140-dhatuvibhanga-e.html [12] Milinda Pa~nha, translated by I.B.Horner as 'Milinda's Questions', (Dilemmas V11, 'What is in the world that is not Born of Cause) [13] Ibid, same chapter, 'Born of Kamma and so on', [14] Ibid, Dilemmas VIII, "Nibbana is without a Counterpart": [15] Ibid, ('Questions on Talk of Similes, #26, 'Space') ============================================== (end quote) Nina. #99096 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:58 am Subject: Follow-up Re: [dsg] 1st Jhaana Qu. nichiconn Dear Scott, Howard, Phil, c: Is it true that there are 34 mental factors involved in first jhaana? H: Replying a bit more seriously: I've heard of 5 jhana factors, and I don't know about 34. But, seriously, this is something to look up somewhere, not to ask an ordinary meditator about. c: Ordinary meditator, Howard? 7 jhaana factors, actually, involved in 79 of the 89 types of citta. vitakko, vicaaro, piiti, ekaggataa & then the one we usually consider, sukha, is representative of the vedana group (somanassa.m, domanassa.m & upekkhaa). 52 mental factors... we can rule out the 14 unwholesome cetasikas for 1st jhaana, so we're down to 38. One-pointedness & feeling are 2 of the 7 universals.... down to 31 now. Throw in the other 3 particulars to go with the other three factors & we're down to 25, which is how many kusala cetasikas there are, 19 of which are universal to those. So, to answer my own question: yes, at least, because 19+7+6=32. I'd rather ask why we'd Want to know any of this rather than do we have to. It might be helpful to faith or reasoned confidence. But yeah, Phil, isn't it amazing that kusala is said to be so rare? peace, connie #99097 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:04 am Subject: Re: Follow-up Re: [dsg] 1st Jhaana Qu. upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and Phil) - In a message dated 7/12/2009 11:58:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Dear Scott, Howard, Phil, c: Is it true that there are 34 mental factors involved in first jhaana? H: Replying a bit more seriously: I've heard of 5 jhana factors, and I don't know about 34. But, seriously, this is something to look up somewhere, not to ask an ordinary meditator about. c: Ordinary meditator, Howard? ------------------------------------------ Well, speaking of myself, certainly ordinary - mediocre in fact. ----------------------------------------- 7 jhaana factors, actually, involved in 79 of the 89 types of citta. vitakko, vicaaro, piiti, ekaggataa & then the one we usually consider, sukha, is representative of the vedana group (somanassa.m, domanassa.m & upekkhaa). 52 mental factors... we can rule out the 14 unwholesome cetasikas for 1st jhaana, so we're down to 38. One-pointedness & feeling are 2 of the 7 universals.... down to 31 now. Throw in the other 3 particulars to go with the other three factors & we're down to 25, which is how many kusala cetasikas there are, 19 of which are universal to those. So, to answer my own question: yes, at least, because 19+7+6=32. ----------------------------------------- Well, I don't know. In the suttas I see only 5 referred to. In any case, this isn't very important to me. ----------------------------------------- I'd rather ask why we'd Want to know any of this rather than do we have to. ------------------------------------------- Well, yeah, me too. -------------------------------------------- It might be helpful to faith or reasoned confidence. -------------------------------------------- It doesn't serve that purpose for me. What does serve that purpose for me are the Buddha's emphasis on jhana, the reports by practitioners whose intelligence and character and goodness I trust, and, most of all, direct experience in line with what the Buddha stated in the suttas. ------------------------------------------- But yeah, Phil, isn't it amazing that kusala is said to be so rare? peace, connie ============================ With metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #99098 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:07 am Subject: Re: Follow-up Re: [dsg] 1st Jhaana Qu./Scott upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/12/2009 1:04:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes: Hi, Connie (and Phil) - ========================== Please forgive my oversight in excluding you from my salutation in replying to Connie! It was inadvertent, I promise you. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99099 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:44 am Subject: Satipatthana: Vipassana or Jhana + Vipassana? truth_aerator Dear Nina, Scott, KenH and all, Satipatthana promises full awakening or Anagamiship in as little as 7 days and the longest time it gives seems to be 7 years. Many people had done satipatthana far longer than 7 days and some people have been trying to "see realities as they appear" for longer than 7 years and yet the results have been very minimum, if any at all. When we carefully read DN22 in light of other suttas we see a different picture than what some over-enthusiastic interpreters have been saying. DN 22 has a phrase in the beginning, even before 1st satipatthana "having removed covetenous & displeasure for the world. " vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam, And how does one do that? In MN68 it is said that Jhana (or at least state immediately prior to that) does that! In many suttas it states that domanassa ceases in or prior to 4th Jhana and abhijjhadomanassa itself may relate to 5 hindrances, which Jhana removes. In MN111 Ven. Sariputta analyzed phenomena that arose & ceased "contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,2 desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers." All these were seen in Jhana and aruppa levels! Furthermore, the Satipatthana sutta has a strange set of instructions about seeing external feelings & mind states. This, unless we interpret external in a different way, implies telepathic abilities, abilities that can be gained FROM JHANA, especially 4th one. In fact it may be the case that seeing arise & fall of the body, feelings, mind and qualities that belong to oneself and others be related to seeing one's own and others previous lifetimes, their mind states, kamma and the result of it. It is *impossible* to break 5 lower and 5 upper fetters without Jhana (and insight after it). - MN64 . If we consider satipatthana to be without jhana (false!) then we would run into many contradictions between satipatthana as "the sole way" and "jhana is required". But if we realize that satipatthana is not a 1limb, but 8fold path, then the contradictions fall away. In DN#2 the insight into the body and its nature is done after or during 4th Jhana: "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' Just as if there were a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water -- eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects, and going through the middle of it was a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread -- and a man with good eyesight, taking it in his hand, were to reflect on it thus: 'This is a beautiful beryl gem of the purest water, eight faceted, well polished, clear, limpid, consummate in all its aspects. And this, going through the middle of it, is a blue, yellow, red, white, or brown thread.' In the same way -- with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability -- the monk directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/02-samannaphala-e2.h\ tml MN111 of seeing rise & fall of phenomena THROUGH JHANA! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html "...if you do not seclude the mind from sensual desires and things of demerit, or attain something more exalted than that, covetousness takes hold of your mind and stays*1). Anger takes hold of your mind and stays. Sloth and torpor takes hold of your mind and stays. Restlessness and worry takes hold of your mind and stays and doubts take hold of your mind and stay" MN68 http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/068-nalakapana\ -e1.html With metta, Alex #99100 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hi KenH, Scott and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > > ----------------- > <. . .> > A: > So are you saying that a person can develop wholesome states of > mind with the > same efficiency when being in a STRIP CLUB (or watching porn, or being a > hired > killer to wipe the earth off people who are enemies of the "Democratic > Free > World" ????? > ------------------ > > Yes, because, no matter what the conceptual reality may be, there are > really only conditioned dhammas. Visible object, seeing-consciousness, > audible object, . . . are the same anywhere. Just fleeting, soulless > phenomena. > Then why did the Buddha became a monk! After He was awakened, why did his relatives had to become monks? Why do the suttas frequently talk about homelife being "dusty" and so on, and that being a monk is so much easier? Why can't there be Lay Arahants? > ------------ > A: > I can't believe it.... > ------------- > > Can you believe that Angulimalia attained enlightenment while trying to > kill the Buddha? Surely that was a million times worse than any of the > examples you have listed. > > Ken H He changed his ways first, he became a monk, and later he became an Arahant. With metta, Alex #99101 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:57 am Subject: Re: seclusion, viveka. truth_aerator Dear Nina, Scott, KenH and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex and Jon, > I came across some texts that may be of interest to you with regard > to your discussions about seclusion. > We read in the anapanasati sutta (transl by ven. Nyanatiloka): > enlightenment factors perfect clear vision and deliverance? > Herein, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops the mindfulness enlightenment > factor dependent on seclusion, on fading away, on cessation, > resulting in relinquishment..> > The same is stated about the other enlightenment factors > With regard to the word seclusion (viveka), which is seclusion from > defilements, we read about the meaning in the Co to the "Root of > Existence" (Mulapariyaya sutta, as tr. by Ven. Bodhi)that there are > five kinds of seclusion, or abandoning: by substitution of opposite > factors(tadanga pahana), by suppression (in jhana), by eradication > (by the four paths), by tranquillization ( by the four fruitions) and > by escape (nibbana). As regards abandoning by substitution of > opposite factors (tadanga pahana), this occurs during the development > of the stages of insight. The personality view is abandoned by the > first stage of insight: defining nama and rupa, distinquishing their > different characteristics, and by each of the higher stages there is > abandoning by opposite factors. > As to the words of the sutta, fading away (viraga) and cessation > (nirodha), these have the same meaning as seclusion, viveka. > As to the words, "resulting in relinquishment", as the Visuddhimagga > VIII, 236) explained, this is relinquishment as giving up (of > defilements) and as entering into nibbana. We read: called both relinquishment as giving up and relinquishment as > entering into, since through substitution of opposite qualities it > gives up defilements with their aggregate-producing kamma-formations, > and through seeing the wretchedness of what is formed (sankhara), it > also enters into nibbana by inclining towards nibbana, which is the > opposte of the formed (asankhata, unconditioned).> we read that also > the path is called both relinquishment as giving up and > relinquishment as entering into. > > ****** > Nina. > One of the factors of seclusion IS physical seclusion. Consciousness, at least partially, depends on matter and external phenomena. Those who don't believe this do this experiment visible here and now: take a hammer and hit your head. I bet that your consciousness will be affected. Or take intoxicating drink like alcohol, again at least SOME part of the mind will be affected. One is bound to have more lust in a strip-club (or a when shopping for a new purse) then in a physical seclusion. Visiting Strip club (for example) for high T men is like adding fuel to the fire. Similiar with other similar places. The sense restrain formula does say that one needs to restrain ones mind and not be carried away by signs and features. Physical seclusion helps to limit the possibility of yet-untrained mind to be carried away more often. Why did the Buddha praise seclusion so often and ordained many people? If Physical seclusion is not required, why didn't the Buddha become a prince again? Why didn't he become a Righteous King? Surely in the position of power he could spread Dhamma even more, and he could rule RIGHTEOUSLY his kingdom. With metta, Alex #99102 From: "ajschrier" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:09 am Subject: Re: space, continued. Part 2. ajschrier Dear dhamma researchers, - Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > So, actually, there are 3 asankhata dhammas: > > a) pa~n~natti (concepts), > b) aakaasa (space) [an-antaakaasa, not pariccheda aakaasa] > c) nibbana. > If I undertsand correctly, the space mentioned under b) revers to the aakaasa wich is the object of conciousness and "base" for the aakaasan~catayatana beings, the sphere of infinite space In this sphere there is no above, besides, behind etc. As the is no origo (ruupa) to start from. That would put all te aakaasa in Ruupalola and kaamaloka in with the conditioned stuff. Where one can speak of a space above, besides, inside and behind. #99103 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:13 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 Dear Howard, I'll reply and leave the last word to you. Stop now, Howard, if you are feeling faint of heart.;-) I'm not being disrespectful of you but I will be disagreeing with you. I don't like to walk on eggshells around you, and so I won't. If it turns into a 'dispute' I'm not here to continue it. I'm not going to discuss this jhaana thing again. You will want to flip out. Just don't.;-) Check out all the winky guys. Ha. No, you will or won't due to conditions. I'm just disagreeing and just stating a position, one of many on the list, and totally fair to do so. I am to be ignored. No need to be freaking out. Regarding: H: "Khun Sujin and Nina write about jhanas, passing on useful traditional information, but I believe have not entered jhanas. There are others such as Ven Henepola Gunaratana who both teach and attain. There are, I am led to believe, yet others who attain jhanas with a degree of mastery but don't talk much or at all about it. And, of course there are also those who doubt that jhana attainment is possible and/or consider it unimportant anyway..." Scott: Teachers are a problem, Howard. Teachers of jhaana are a bigger problem. I doubt that you or Alex or anyone advocating jhaana that I've read here will attain jhaana. Sure its my opinion. Why? None of you have, by your own admission, after lots of trying. And, given the way I see you all to misunderstand certain very essential things, I can imagine why it can't happen. And that's just my opinion as well. And you think the obverse of me and so what? That jhaana consists of real aspects of kusala consciousness is something I don't doubt. It is 'unimportant' to me in that I know that I've not the requisite developments for it and there are other natural ways that can arise slowly from time to time. Who leads you to believe their attainments? Why do they want to teach? What makes them think they know jhaana? What makes them think it can be taught? Learning *about* jhaana and jhaana factors is learning about Dhamma. And it is clear that these factors have to be there and not others. I haven't excluded jhaana from pariyatti. When it comes up for study I study about it - to learn of it, not to try to do it. I consider the chase for jhaana attainment to be a fruitless pursuit given that anyone I've read who thinks of him or herself as a teacher or a would-be practitioner of jhaana demonstrates to me that they simply don't get it. I suppose there might be some in the world with the requisite development for jhaana. I just don't think its transferable, like learning to swing a golf club. H: "As for 'the jhana advocates' you encounter, how in the world do you know that they do not the enter jhanas, that they lack 'the accumulations to do so,' and they don't understand jhana and are unlikely to do so anytime soon? You would have to know those folks very, very well, I think. If you have in mind some of the folks on this list whom you have never met in person, it seems to me that you don't know them nearly well enough unless you are a superb psychic. (No need to answer. I understand that you don't wish to debate this, and that's fine with me as well, because with us debate so quickly turns to dispute.)" Scott: I just disagree with you, Howard. Nothing personal. As mentioned, no one who writes on DSG as an advocate of jhaana has ever attained even access concentration. Again, by the admission of these adherents. And this is only a point since I've read what the jhaana advocates write about jhaana as experience and it is often incoherent, inconsistent, contradictory, sensationalistic, quasi-mystical, and doesn't conform with the texts I read. Not to mention that, to a one, these advocates misunderstand the uncontrollability of dhammaa and believe in a self who can practice no matter what they say to the contrary. To me this is completely clear. If one starts to say jhaana has been achieved, I will doubt it since the means will never achieve the end. H: "For me, it is simply encouraging that folks get somewhere with the jhanas, and I am sorry that this is not your feeling as well..." Scott: There is nothing to be sorry about, Howard. You write as if I'm some poor sinner missing out on Heaven because I see the place of jhaana in this day and age as I do. I think that knowing the requisite development and accumulation or conditions for jhaana are not in place, and leaving it alone, is fine. I'm not in danger here. Aeons are a long time. Since pa~n~naa does the work, and any object serves its development, jhaana is not necessary. There are plenty of other dhammaa all the time. I'm leaving the rest Howard. I'm afraid it'll have to be for others. Too much eclecticism for me. I can't help it but I don't consider the views you espouse to be correct. Sorry, man. Sincerely, Scott. #99104 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:15 am Subject: Follow-up Re: [dsg] 1st Jhaana Qu./Scott scottduncan2 Dear Howard, You'll live to regret this: H: "Please forgive my oversight in excluding you from my salutation in replying to Connie! It was inadvertent, I promise you." Scott: After my latest rant! But thanks... Sincerely, Scott. #99105 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:42 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nichiconn Dear Howard, 99097 c: Is it true that there are 34 mental factors involved in first jhaana? H: In the suttas I see only 5 referred to. c: You mean only 5 jhaana factors, I guess, because there are quite a few mental factors listed in MN 111. Anupada Sutta - One by One As They Occurred (B.Bodhi trans): 4. 'And the states in the first jhana - the applied thought, the sustained thought, the rapture, the pleasure, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind; the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.' Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: 'There is an escape beyond,' and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is. peace, connie #99106 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:49 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nichiconn Dear Scott, Scott: Teachers are a problem, Howard. Teachers of jhaana are a bigger problem. c: I reckon one of the first things I'd ask a meditation teacher was whether or not they use an alarm clock to wake them in the morning. A "Yes" would be enough for me to discount their claims. Just my own thing. If they had even less understanding of abhidhamma than I, that would clinch it. They say a guy named Christ could walk on water but did he have right view? Just picking on him because of the heavenly rebirth thing and the idea of faith centered on a person rather than "the law". Aren't all powerful wholesome or unwholesome kammas rooted in desire? Chanda --> viriya --> citta --> vimamsa... maybe it's just the order of the teaching, maybe not. peace, connie ps. No baby yet - false alarm... they should've listened to the 3 year old! lol- When she heard her mom say she wasn't sure whether her water had broken, Isa ran to the table to check on her mom's glass and said it hadn't. #99107 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:03 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Scott, and all interested. >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > I'll reply and leave the last word to you. > > Stop now, Howard, if you are feeling faint of heart.;-) > > I'm not being disrespectful of you but I will be disagreeing with you. I don't like to walk on eggshells around you, and so I won't. If it turns into a 'dispute' I'm not here to continue it. I'm not going to discuss this jhaana thing again. > > You will want to flip out. Just don't.;-) Check out all the winky guys. Ha. No, you will or won't due to conditions. I'm just disagreeing and just stating a position, one of many on the list, and totally fair to do so. I am to be ignored. No need to be freaking out. Regarding: > > H: "Khun Sujin and Nina write about jhanas, passing on useful traditional information, but I believe have not entered jhanas. There are others such as Ven Henepola Gunaratana who both teach and attain. There are, I am led to believe, yet others who attain jhanas with a degree of mastery but don't talk much or at all about it. And, of course there are also those who doubt that jhana attainment is possible and/or consider it unimportant anyway..." > > Scott: Teachers are a problem, Howard. Teachers of jhaana are a bigger problem. > So are you saying, Scott who can read minds, that Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Maha Boowa, Ajahn Mun, Bhante Vimalaramsi and some dedicated reclusive monks have not experienced Jhana? And how can some lay person who hasn't done much (if any) meditation talk about who has achieved and who hasn't? > I doubt that you or Alex or anyone advocating jhaana that I've read >here will attain jhaana. And how do you know? Abhinna powers? How can a fish know about dry land? Fish trying to teach a turtle about crawling on dry land can be humorous at best... The egg is teaching the chicken... > Sure its my opinion. Why? None of you have, by your own >admission, after lots of trying. Where have I said that I didn't reach Jhana? If I would describe Jhana, how would you know that I did? How would a fish know what is dry-land? > And, given the way I see you all to misunderstand certain very >essential things, I can imagine why it can't happen. Fish imagining how life on dry land is impossible. You can't swim! How can you breath oxygen?! > > > Scott: I just disagree with you, Howard. Nothing personal. As >mentioned, no one who writes on DSG as an advocate of jhaana has >ever attained even access concentration. It appears that one is too flexible. For I have attain access concentration, and some vipassana nanas. >Again, by the admission of these adherents. What admission, by whom? With metta, Alex #99108 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:18 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation nichiconn Dear Alex, Re: #99107 << I have attain access concentration, and some vipassana nanas. >> c: Sutta reference for access concentration, please? peace, connie #99109 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:22 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Hello Connie, Scott, KenH and all interested, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > 99097 > c: Is it true that there are 34 mental factors involved in first jhaana? > > H: In the suttas I see only 5 referred to. > > c: You mean only 5 jhaana factors, I guess, because there are quite a few mental factors listed in MN 111. > > Anupada Sutta - One by One As They Occurred (B.Bodhi trans): > 4. 'And the states in the first jhana - the applied thought, the sustained thought, the rapture, the pleasure, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind; the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.' Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: 'There is an escape beyond,' and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is. > > peace, > connie Why not reach & master the Jhana, and then tell us? Otherwise it is like scholarly fish speculating on the nature of walking (or crawling) on dry land, or blind leading the blind. The jhana factors belong to 5 aggregates according to this sutta: "there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters1 he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html Or more detailed list found in MN111 With metta, Alex #99110 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:30 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nichiconn Dear Alex, 99107: Why not reach & master the Jhana, and then tell us? c: Are you claiming both yourself and Scott are mindreaders now, Alex? peace, c. #99111 From: "nichiconn" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:33 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nichiconn so sorry, make that 99109. c. > > 99107: Why not reach & master the Jhana, and then tell us? > #99112 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:40 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Dear Connie (and all interested), >, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > >Re: #99107 << I have attain access concentration, and some vipassana >nanas. >> > > c: Sutta reference for access concentration, please? > > peace, > connie example: What is called (by later commentators as access): "... secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities," Jhana: "enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html With metta, Alex #99113 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:58 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator Dear Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > 99107: Why not reach & master the Jhana, and then tell us? > > c: Are you claiming both yourself and Scott are mindreaders now, Alex? > > peace, > c. Scott did say that he doesn't believe that he reached Jhana. My response was aimed at him and non-meditating people. Furthermore it is not just a matter or reaching, but of mastering Jhana (which is very hard for some to do) and having sharp & discerning mind. Those who mastered Jhana as part of N8P and can clearly discern all the jhana factors and have good accumulations are most likely Anagami by now and probably live somewhere in physical seclusion where they don't even have access to internet, nothing to say about desire at being involved in these discussion. That is why in my post I didn't say just "reach jhana", but " Why not reach & master the Jhana, and then tell us? Otherwise it is like scholarly fish speculating on the nature of walking (or crawling) on dry land, or blind leading the blind." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/99109 notice "& master". Very brief and weak moments of Jhana may be reached by many dedicated meditators. But being able to define from direct experience all the factors requires quite a different level , hard to find for lay people. IMHO. As it comes to Scott (if what he is says is true in this case), no need for mind reading. "That jhaana consists of real aspects of kusala consciousness is something I don't doubt. It is 'unimportant' to me in that I know that I've not the requisite developments for it and there are other natural ways that can arise slowly from time to time." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/99103 With metta, Alex #99114 From: "connie" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:27 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nichiconn Dear Alex, Oh... I thought you were telling ME to go master jhaanas, but I'd rather not discuss personal claims one way or the other. Thank you, though -- I appreciate your open mindedness in introducing a commentarial term into our conversations. Maybe others will take note and feel free to follow suit now that we've called another truce. peace, connie #99115 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard ... Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/12/2009 2:14:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, I'll reply and leave the last word to you. Stop now, Howard, if you are feeling faint of heart.;-) ------------------------------------------ Uh, oh! ;-) ------------------------------------------ I'm not being disrespectful of you but I will be disagreeing with you. ---------------------------------------- That's fine. ------------------------------------------ I don't like to walk on eggshells around you, and so I won't. If it turns into a 'dispute' I'm not here to continue it. I'm not going to discuss this jhaana thing again. You will want to flip out. Just don't.;-) Check out all the winky guys. Ha. No, you will or won't due to conditions. I'm just disagreeing and just stating a position, one of many on the list, and totally fair to do so. I am to be ignored. No need to be freaking out. ------------------------------------------ Ok, Scott, I am now soothed and prepared! ;-) ---------------------------------------- Regarding: H: "Khun Sujin and Nina write about jhanas, passing on useful traditional information, but I believe have not entered jhanas. There are others such as Ven Henepola Gunaratana who both teach and attain. There are, I am led to believe, yet others who attain jhanas with a degree of mastery but don't talk much or at all about it. And, of course there are also those who doubt that jhana attainment is possible and/or consider it unimportant anyway..." Scott: Teachers are a problem, Howard. Teachers of jhaana are a bigger problem. ------------------------------------------- Well, I haven't studied with "jhana teachers" per se, except for a single one-day session with Leigh Brasington many years ago, not really different from the many other retreats I used to go to. For a good number of years now, however, I meditate on my own, and I find the meditation itself backed up by sutta reading to be the best teacher for me. ---------------------------------------- I doubt that you or Alex or anyone advocating jhaana that I've read here will attain jhaana. ---------------------------------------- I have experienced jhanas. ---------------------------------------- Sure its my opinion. Why? None of you have, by your own admission, after lots of trying. ------------------------------------ That's not so, Scott. What I have said is that my jhana experience was limited and brief, and miles from mastery. But I have experienced jhanas. ------------------------------------- And, given the way I see you all to misunderstand certain very essential things, I can imagine why it can't happen. -------------------------------------- LOL! ------------------------------------- And that's just my opinion as well. And you think the obverse of me and so what? --------------------------------------- I have a few opinions, but, as you know, opinions and knowledge are not the same. -------------------------------------- That jhaana consists of real aspects of kusala consciousness is something I don't doubt. It is 'unimportant' to me in that I know that I've not the requisite developments for it and there are other natural ways that can arise slowly from time to time. ------------------------------------------ Well, Scott, perhaps you lack the requirements, perhaps not. I think it best not to be too sure about what we can or cannot do. Why foreclose possibilities? But, the judgement, of course, is yours to make. ------------------------------------------ Who leads you to believe their attainments? Why do they want to teach? What makes them think they know jhaana? What makes them think it can be taught? Learning *about* jhaana and jhaana factors is learning about Dhamma. And it is clear that these factors have to be there and not others. -------------------------------------------- I'm not so concerned with the mastery of others. From my own experience, I know that it is possible for me to "enter" jhanas, and I believe that it is useful for me to pursue this. ------------------------------------------- I haven't excluded jhaana from pariyatti. When it comes up for study I study about it - to learn of it, not to try to do it. I consider the chase for jhaana attainment to be a fruitless pursuit given that anyone I've read who thinks of him or herself as a teacher or a would-be practitioner of jhaana demonstrates to me that they simply don't get it. ---------------------------------------------- Well, the Buddha did describe the stages of jhana, and my direct experience, limited as it was, tells me that it is a reality. At this point, I will let that reality "speak" for itself. But for you and anyone else who finds meditation not their cup of tea, that's fine. Conditions do change, and I wish you and all other non-meditators all the best. -------------------------------------------- I suppose there might be some in the world with the requisite development for jhaana. I just don't think its transferable, like learning to swing a golf club. ---------------------------------------------- Oh, neither do I! If one meditates properly AND is predisposed to jhana, the meditation can lead to jhana. If not, well, then not. ----------------------------------------------- H: "As for 'the jhana advocates' you encounter, how in the world do you know that they do not the enter jhanas, that they lack 'the accumulations to do so,' and they don't understand jhana and are unlikely to do so anytime soon? You would have to know those folks very, very well, I think. If you have in mind some of the folks on this list whom you have never met in person, it seems to me that you don't know them nearly well enough unless you are a superb psychic. (No need to answer. I understand that you don't wish to debate this, and that's fine with me as well, because with us debate so quickly turns to dispute.)" Scott: I just disagree with you, Howard. Nothing personal. --------------------------------------- I understand that it is not personal. And I understand that you disagree on this. I just don't see the basis for that disagreement being so strong. But it is what it is. ------------------------------------------ As mentioned, no one who writes on DSG as an advocate of jhaana has ever attained even access concentration. --------------------------------------------- I can't for the world of me figure out how you supposedly know this. Speaking for myself, Scott, this assertion is false. ---------------------------------------------- Again, by the admission of these adherents. And this is only a point since I've read what the jhaana advocates write about jhaana as experience and it is often incoherent, inconsistent, contradictory, sensationalistic, quasi-mystical, and doesn't conform with the texts I read. ----------------------------------------------- Well, what I experienced accords very well with what the Buddha taught. ------------------------------------------------ Not to mention that, to a one, these advocates misunderstand the uncontrollability of dhammaa and believe in a self who can practice no matter what they say to the contrary. ------------------------------------------------- Scott, you seem to think that you are a mind reader and/or that others are liars or fools. You might consider a more generous view. In any case, I do NOT believe in a self. In fact, I don't believe in actors/agents of any sort. (Hmm! Talking of actors and agents sound like show biz talk! ;-) ------------------------------------------------ To me this is completely clear. If one starts to say jhaana has been achieved, I will doubt it since the means will never achieve the end. H: "For me, it is simply encouraging that folks get somewhere with the jhanas, and I am sorry that this is not your feeling as well..." Scott: There is nothing to be sorry about, Howard. You write as if I'm some poor sinner missing out on Heaven because I see the place of jhaana in this day and age as I do. I think that knowing the requisite development and accumulation or conditions for jhaana are not in place, and leaving it alone, is fine. I'm not in danger here. Aeons are a long time. ----------------------------------------------- Yes, a long time. Aeons of dukkha, Scott. Do you take the unsatisfactoriness of samsara so unseriously that aeons of it is just fine? Didn't the Buddha speak of urgency? Didn't he use similes of one's head being afire? ----------------------------------------------- Since pa~n~naa does the work, and any object serves its development, jhaana is not necessary. There are plenty of other dhammaa all the time. I'm leaving the rest Howard. I'm afraid it'll have to be for others. Too much eclecticism for me. I can't help it but I don't consider the views you espouse to be correct. Sorry, man. ----------------------------------------------- That's okay, Scott. I have the corresponding take on your views. :-) ----------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ============================ With metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #99116 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard ... Hi, Connie - In a message dated 7/12/2009 3:42:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Dear Howard, 99097 c: Is it true that there are 34 mental factors involved in first jhaana? H: In the suttas I see only 5 referred to. c: You mean only 5 jhaana factors, I guess, because there are quite a few mental factors listed in MN 111. --------------------------------------- Ah, yes, absolutely! I misread you. Yes, there are many. (I not a counter, though.) ----------------------------------------- Anupada Sutta - One by One As They Occurred (B.Bodhi trans): 4. 'And the states in the first jhana - the applied thought, the sustained thought, the rapture, the pleasure, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind; the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.' Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind rid of barriers. He understood: 'There is an escape beyond,' and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is. ------------------------------------------- One of my favorite suttas, BTW. ----------------------------------------- peace, connie ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99117 From: "Dan D." Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:45 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 ... Scott, you write: "I doubt that you or Alex or anyone advocating jhaana that I've read here will attain jhaana." Are you sure? Don't let your doubt become a fetter! -Dan #99118 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard ... Hey, Dan!! Nice to her from you!!! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/12/2009 8:45:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Scott, you write: "I doubt that you or Alex or anyone advocating jhaana that I've read here will attain jhaana." Are you sure? Don't let your doubt become a fetter! -Dan #99119 From: "ronlp86" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:30 pm Subject: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. ronlp86 ... I have some question on Buddhist philosophy. 1. Why does Buddhism try to stop all desires? When all desire ends, so does life. If an enlightened person has truly lost all desire than they will have also lost the desire to live and will cease breathing and die. Absolutely no desire=no life. 2. If We dont really exist and part of enlightenment is realizing this than why do we not just kill everyone? After all, They dont exist and neither do we so everything is empty and worthless and suffering doesnt really matter. In fact, arent we doing them a favor by ending their illusion of life? 3. Why compassion? If nobody really exists and suffering is an illusion as well as all other feelings, thoughts, and perceptions, than why keep compassion? It is also just a feeling and expression so it is also an illusion correct? 4. Karma states that you get back what you put out. It is like an equal exchange. Well, how can one ever escape bad karma? Because we do more harm by being alive than we do good no matter what we do. For example, everytime I scratch my arm I kill many little living things that come together to make up my skin cells. Whenever I swallow I destroy whatever little bacterial creatures are living in my mouth. I destroy them by the millions everyday, and there is no way to balance the vast ammount of harm done just being being alive to any good deeds we do. Simply being alive is so destructive that every living being would end up in a naraka at death according to karma. Before you think Im a bitter hindu or muslim or Christian or person of another religious view please note that I am an agnostic that once had a big interest in buddhism and found the meditation techniques to be helpful in quieting the mind and overcoming stress. But I could not get over these hurdles in the philosophy of the religion and couldnt seperate the meditation techniques from the philosophy because the meditation techniques are based on the philosophy in how they are taught to you. It almost drove me nuts. Id love to hear what you all think. #99120 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:23 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 ... Dear Dan, Regarding: D: "Scott, you write: 'I doubt that you or Alex or anyone advocating jhaana that I've read here will attain jhaana.' Are you sure? Don't let your doubt become a fetter!" Scott: Speak to me, Dan. I've read you in U.P., from years ago. Jhaana is real. Practitioners with stories are a dime a dozen. Sincerely, Scott. #99121 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:54 pm Subject: Egolution! bhikkhu.sama... ... Friends: The Ego Illusion is the Strongest Prison! The Blessed Buddha once said: 'I am' is an illusion. 'This I am' is an illusion. 'I shall be' is an illusion. 'I shall not become this or that' is an illusion. 'I shall be of form' is an illusion. 'I shall become formless' is an illusion. 'I shall become endowed with perception' is an illusion. 'I shall become without any perception' is an illusion. 'I shall become neither with nor without perception' is an illusion. Illusion is torture, illusion is a mind cancer, illusion is a thorn in the future. If, however, all illusion is overcome, one is called a stilled one, a sage. And the stilled one, the sage, is no more reborn, grows no more old or accumulate any future deaths.. Why not? That craving, through which he could be reborn, is all gone! If he is not reborn, how can he ever grow old? If he never grows old, how can he ever die? If one never dies again, how ever to be in panic? If neither in panic, nor urge, how can one ever be haunted by craving? The EGO is an Illegal Illusion: A Freudian Folly! Source Text (extract): Majjhima Nikāya 140: Analysis of the Elements: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The Ego Illusion! #99122 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:29 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation truth_aerator ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Dan, > > Regarding: > > D: "Scott, you write: 'I doubt that you or Alex or anyone advocating jhaana that I've read here will attain jhaana.' Are you sure? Don't let your doubt become a fetter!" > > Scott: Speak to me, Dan. I've read you in U.P., from years ago. Jhaana is real. Practitioners with stories are a dime a dozen. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Hi Scott, How do you know that this person has achieved Jhana, that person didn't? With metta, Alex #99123 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:42 pm Subject: Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. truth_aerator ... Hi Ron, > "ronlp86" wrote: > > I have some question on Buddhist philosophy. > > 1. Why does Buddhism try to stop all desires? When all desire ends, so does life. If an enlightened person has truly lost all desire than they will have also lost the desire to live and will cease breathing and die. Absolutely no desire=no life. > There is no full mastery over what happens in mind & body and trying to make things be other than they are or to wish for something that cannot happen = suffering. A person cannot will and master the mind to always & eternally experience pleasant cognitions. A person cannot will the body to always be young, healthy, beautiful and experience only wished for things. Often the body, due to attachment toward it, be an object of many emotional pains and body image problems. No craving for it = no problems with body-image and so on and so forth. The more desire you have for things to be this way, and they happen in an opposite way - the more suffering. When you have 0 desire for mind & body, then undesireble things cannot ever happen. Only when there is desire can undesireble events occur. Furthermore craving causes rebirth, and only when there is birth & existence does one have a potential to be raped, maimed, killed, tortured mutilated and experience various other painful feelings, not to mention aging, sickness and death. > 2. If We dont really exist and part of enlightenment is realizing this than why do we not just kill everyone? After all, They dont exist and neither do we so everything is empty and worthless and suffering doesnt really matter. In fact, arent we doing them a favor by ending their illusion of life? > Feeling of pain or happiness exists. Certain actions bring more pain, certain actions bring more peace. > 3. Why compassion? If nobody really exists and suffering is an illusion as well as all other feelings, thoughts, and perceptions, than why keep compassion? It is also just a feeling and expression so it is also an illusion correct? > Compassion is a good mental quality that brings more happiness. > 4. Karma states that you get back what you put out. Yes and no. Kamma is NOT a linear cause-effect process. It is possible to attenuate it. A same deed done by different people will result in different Kamma (one may go to heaven, another to hell). > It is like an equal exchange. It is not. Heard of "butterfly effect" ? Well, how can one ever escape bad karma? Becaus e we do more harm by being alive than we do good no matter what we do. For example, everytime I scratch my arm I kill many little living things that come together to make up my skin cells. Whenever I swallow I destroy whatever little bacterial creatures are living in my mouth. I destroy them by the millions everyday, and there is no way to balance the vast ammount of harm done just being being alive to any good deeds we do. Simply being alive is so destructive that every living being would end up in a naraka at death according to karma. > Kamma = intentional action. Accidental misdeeds do not count. Best wishes, Alex #99124 From: han tun Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:29 pm Subject: Re: space, continued. Part 2. hantun1 ... Dear Nina, Chew, Sarah, Connie, Aakaasa has two meanings: (i) air, sky, atmosphere; and (ii) space. PTS Dictionary: Ākāsa1 [Sk. ākāśa fr. ā + kāś, lit. shining forth, i. e. the illuminated space] air, sky, atmosphere; space. On the concept see Cpd. 5, 16, 226. On a fanciful etym. of ākāsa (fr. ā + kassati of kṛṣ) at DhsA 325 see Dhs trsl. 178. In Burmese translation of Milindapa~nha, aakaasa is taken as sky (not space). ---------- In English translation of Milindapa~nha by N.K.G. Mendis, there is a note about space and nibbaana being not born of a cause. It says: [The notion that space (aakaasa) is not born of a cause appears to approach the Sarvaastivaadin tenet that both Nirvaana and space are unconditioned (asamskrta). Though Milinda may reflect this influence, it stops short of ascribing this status to space, specifying Nibbaana alone as unconditioned.] ---------- Han: I do not know whether the above facts will have bearing on the present discussions. Respectfully, Han #99125 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Dan, Alberto & all, Great to see you! Looking forward to reading your discussion with Scott - always interesting to see which thread/topic you make your appearance in:). Alberto & all, we got back safely and easily yesterday - no problem with the trains this time. A great stay in Italy! Ciao! Sarah p.s Just a few days to catch up here before heading back to Aus and Fiji... .... --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Dan D. wrote: >Scott, you write: "I doubt that you or Alex or anyone advocating jhaana that I've read here will attain jhaana." >Are you sure? >Don't let your doubt become a fetter! #99126 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:18 pm Subject: TYPOP Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi again, Dan - "her" = "hear" in the following! ;-) In a message dated 7/12/2009 8:50:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hey, Dan!! Nice to her from you!!! :-) With metta, Howard #99127 From: westbankj@... Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:57 pm Subject: Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas farrel.kevin Hi everybody. I've had a very busy week! My apologies for not being able to post sooner. I have read all of your replies. So happy to see so many replies. I will respond to each individually when I get home from work tomorrow. Sincerely, and with metta, Kevin #99128 From: "ronlp86" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:50 pm Subject: Annata No self. ronlp86 Does Buddhism ever in any way totally deny the existence of a self? I know that Buddha would often say what was NOT the self, such as thoughts, feelings, perceptions, emotions, etc etc. However I have heard that when he was asked flat-out whether or not there was a permanent underlying self that he simply refused to answer because to say there definitely was or wasnt a self was to fall into extremes and neither one was quite correct. So, Is it that there is a self but it cannot be described by what it is and therefore can only be hinted at by what it is not? If this is the case then I can see why it would not really be called a "Self" because the normal concept of a "self" is exactly those qualities which the Buddha himself stated was not the self, and yet, we exist. Perhaps it is much like in taoism where it says that the tao that can be spoken of in words is not the true tao. Either that or its just total nihilism, which is depressing. #99129 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:04 pm Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Dear Mr. G., You asked me about the way to know the difference between nma and rpa. You find it difficult to realize their different characteristics. I will first summarize the points that you have doubts about: When feeling hot, there are both nma and rpa. What is the characteristic of body-consciousness (kaya-vina)? What is the characteristic of bodily feeling which accompanies body- consciousness? What are the characteristics of other feelings besides bodily feeling which arise at other moments? What is the characteristic of the rpa which is heat? These are questions which are bound to arise when we learn about different nmas and rpas and we begin to be aware of them. There are different levels of understanding of realities. First there should be theoretical understanding about nma and rpa, and then one can begin to be aware of their characteristics when they appear. Through awareness direct understanding of realities can be developed. Body-consciousness is the citta which experiences rpas which impinge on the body-sense. These rpas can be the following: the Element of Earth or solidity, to be experienced as hardness or softness; the Element of Fire, to be experienced as heat or cold; the Element of Wind, to be experienced as motion or pressure. These rpas impinge on the bodysense all the time. The body-sense through which these rpas can be experienced is also rpa. The bodysense does not know anything, but it is a condition for the nma which experiences tangible object. The bodysense is to be found all over the body, except in those parts which are insensitive, such as hair or nails. The bodysense is not only on the outside of the body, but also inside the body. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 52) states that it is to be found everywhere, like a liquid that soaks a layer of cotton. Also in those parts of the body we call kidney or liver there is bodysense; pain can be felt in these parts. When we notice any bodily sensation, be it ever so slight, it shows that there is impact on the bodysense. When we remember this it can be a condition for awareness of different kinds of realities, also when the impact on the bodysense is very slight, or inside the body. ****** Nina. #99130 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:11 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. nilovg Dear Ajschrier. thank you for your contribution to this discussion. Op 12-jul-2009, om 20:09 heeft ajschrier het volgende geschreven: > So, actually, there are 3 asankhata dhammas: > > > > a) pa~n~natti (concepts), > > b) aakaasa (space) [an-antaakaasa, not pariccheda aakaasa] > > c) nibbana. > > > A: If I undertsand correctly, the space mentioned under b) revers > to the aakaasa wich is the object of conciousness and "base" for > the aakaasan~catayatana beings, the sphere of infinite space In > this sphere there is no above, besides, behind etc. As the is no > origo (ruupa) to start from. > That would put all te aakaasa in Ruupalola and kaamaloka in with > the conditioned stuff. Where one can speak of a space above, > besides, inside and behind. ------- N: As far as I understood, the discussion on space was not about the meditation subject of space, which is a concept. It was about the dhaatu of space, including the pariccheda ruupa and unconditioned space. But I hasten to add that I do not understand much about uncondiitoned space. Above etc. seems to indicate that it is everywhere. Like the meditation on metta, the same is said. It is infinite. Nina. #99131 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:56 pm Subject: Re: Annata No self. kenhowardau Hi Ron, Welcome to DSG, and thanks for the good questions. ----------- R: > Does Buddhism ever in any way totally deny the existence of a self? ----------- Yes, totally! The only things that really exist are dhammas (cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana). --------- R: > I know that Buddha would often say what was NOT the self, such as thoughts, feelings, perceptions, emotions, etc etc. ---------- Yes, he would categorise the conditioned dhammas in various ways and make clear that each of them was anicca (impermanent), dukkha (unsatisfactory) and anatta (not self). ---------------- R: > However I have heard that when he was asked flat-out whether or not there was a permanent underlying self that he simply refused to answer because to say there definitely was or wasnt a self was to fall into extremes and neither one was quite correct. --------------- No that is not the case. The Buddha always stressed that all namas and rupas were anatta. If, however, a listener was not ready to hear about namas and rupas then there wasn't any point in talking about anatta. That was what happened in the sutta you are referring to. (Vacchagotta Sutta). Later, however, that listener was ready and was taught the truth. ---------------------- R: > So, Is it that there is a self but it cannot be described by what it is and therefore can only be hinted at by what it is not? If this is the case then I can see why it would not really be called a "Self" because the normal concept of a "self" is exactly those qualities which the Buddha himself stated was not the self, and yet, we exist. Perhaps it is much like in taoism where it says that the tao that can be spoken of in words is not the true tao. Either that or its just total nihilism, which is depressing. ---------------------- There are many so-called Buddhists on the internet who are pushing a new interpretation of the Dhamma in which anatta does not mean no self. According to this new teaching anatta was taught by the Buddha only as a meditation technique (in which meditators resisted thoughts of self and no self). Nothing could be further from the truth. Ken H #99132 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:00 am Subject: Imperturbable (aane~nja) sarahprocter... Dear Alberto & all, When we met we had some discussion about the meaning of imperturbable (aane~ja) cittas and whether/why these just refer to aaruupa jhaana cittas and not, for example, to ruupa jhaana cittas as in: "Three kinds of kammic formation: meritorious, demeritorious, imperturbable. (Tayo sa'nkhaaraa: pu~n~naabhisa'nkhaaro, apu~n~naabhisa'nkhaaro, aane~njaabhisa'nkhaaro.) Here are some quotes: Sammohavinodanii, ch 6, Paccayaakaaravibha"nga (Dispeller: 654): "In the description of formations of the imperturbable, kusalaa cetanaa aruupaavacaraa ('profitable volition of the immaterial spehere') is the four profitable volitions of the immaterial sphere; for these four are called 'formations of the imperturbable' in the sense of not perturbing, and in the sense of forming the imperturbable. For also the fifteeen states, namely, the three consisting of the profitable, the resultant and the functional volitions from the fourth jhaana of the fine-immaterial sphere, and the twelve volitions of the immaterial sphere, are called 'imperturbable' in the sense of immobility and in the sense of non-trembling." ***** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/94863 " A: And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the > imperturbability (see Vbh. 135) of the immaterial attainments and > their state of peaceful liberation are mentioned (MN i,33), and that > Alara Kalama neither saw the five hundred carts that passed close by > him nor heard the sound of them while he was in an immaterial > attainment (DN ii, 130)." [/i] ------- N: Quite true. Now we know why they are imperturbable." ***** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/93811 "N: Sutta: DN 33.1.10(35) Three kinds of kammic formation:*1041 meritorious, demeritorious, imperturbable. (Tayo sa'nkhaaraa: pu~n~naabhisa'nkhaaro, apu~n~naabhisa'nkhaaro, aane~njaabhisa'nkhaaro.) <....> "As to aana~njaabhisa”nkhaara (N: also spelled aane~njaabhisa”nkhaara), imperturbable kamma-formation, these are the kusala cetanas accompanying the four aruupaavacara kusala cittas of the four stages of aruupajhaana. The Co explains that this gives motionless and peaceful vipaaka without ruupa. N: It produces rebirth in planes where there is no ruupa. The Tiika to Vis. XVII, 61 explains that This citta is not disturbed by ruupa, the meditation subject of aruupavaacara citta is not dependent on ruupa. The three kamma-formations are conditioned by ignorance, and they will produce rebirth. So long as there is ignorance that conditions kamma-formations we shall continue in the cycle of birth and death." ***** Metta, Sarah ========= #99133 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Ken H & Alberto, K:> I vaguely remember them. Are they additional results (in addition to the phala cittas) of supramundane magga cittas? .... >S: No, the magga cittas bring their immediate result by way of the phala cittas only. However, because all sense desire and aversion has been eradicated at this stage, so there is no more tie to sensous realms. I believe the anagamis (at death)are always reborn into arupa-brahama realms, such as the Pure Abodes (which only anagamis can be reborn into). These rebirths would be the result of arupa jhana cittas. ------ >N: I remember we asked Kh Sujin several times about this point. If I remember correctly, the anaagaami does not have to cultivate jhaana, but since they do not cling to any sense objects, they are naturally reborn in the plane of Pure Abodes. Buddhist Dict.: they are a group of five Heavens belonging to the ruupaloka. .... S: Yes, I remember KS's comments too. According to the B.Bodhi's Guide note in CMA (p.361): "A non-returner has fully eradicated sensual lust and ill-will, the fetters that bind to the sensuous world. He has also eradicated the taint of sensual desire and the unwholesome cetasikas, hatred and worry, as well as all greed taking a sensuous object. Thus he will be spontaneously reborn in a fine-material realm and there attain final Nibbaana. *It should be noted that while only non-returners are reborn in the Pure Abodes, there is no fixed determination that all non-returners are reborn there.*" S: 1.I just checked the commentary itself, but nothing there. Do you think this last sentence above is incorrect? Do we have any textual reference that indicates they are always reborn in the Pure Abodes? 2. When we say/read that they are 'naturally'/'spontaneously' reborn in the fine-material realm/Pure Abodes, (and as Alberto pointed out when we discussed this point, with all fetters to the sensuous worlds eradicated, there could be no alternative), does this mean there is no specific kamma which brings about the rebirth as in the case of every other kind of birth/patisandhi citta? 3. In Bkk we also (briefly) discussed the five types on anagamis mentioned in the texts (as given in CMA p 362). When the Thai was also given and translated (the same), I believe I was told these were the 5 types who had attained jhaana. (I had wondered whether the asankhaaraparinibbaayi and sasankhaaraparinibbaayi might refer to those who had attained and had not attained jhaana, but was told this couldn't be so). Hmm, hair-splitting details of little relevance to this moment, but was just checking CMA... Metta, Sarah ======== #99134 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Howard & all, --- On Tue, 23/6/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N:We may > believe that this particular person, this place and this situation > are the causes of our unhappiness. However, these are not the real > causes. The real cause is our accumulated dosa. > ------------ --------- --------- --------- - > H: This sounds like a defense of a view of non-responsibility for > one's > actions, Nina. .... S: This is exactly the same as a discussion I was having with one of my brothers and his partner. They believe that if someone else behaves badly (as they see it, of course) or speaks wrongly, that they should be told, even if it causes distress. For example, if someone (like my mother)rebukes their children with a lack of consideration, the children (if disturbed) should answer back or their parents should, in return, rebuke my mother. They thought that to keep quiet and 'pretend' all was well indicated a lack of truthfulness. Jon and I tried to indicate that the problem is our expectations of others and that the real problem is not 'the other person' but our own concerns. Consideration and truthfulness on our part often means keeping quiet, rather than creating further dismay by 'speaking out', perpetuating the cycle of blame and justification of our own actions. We learn to be more understaning and show more gentleness and care. It's interesting too, that often those who object most to being treated/spoken to in a particular way are the same people who often feel most strongly that they should 'speak out' when aggrieved. My view was also suggested to be a 'sweeping under the carpet' approach, but my brother and his partner restrained from speaking out, everything ended happily and the 'mediation' seemed to have been appreciated. Yes, we are not 'the world manager' and the dosa never helps. Rather than pointing to others' dosa or wrong deeds/speech, we learn more about our own cittas, develop more friendliness and care for the others rather than concern about how we are treated. Metta, Sarah ======== #99135 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:52 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (22-23) and co. part 2. nilovg Dear friends, Sutta 23. RDs: [ 4.23 ] Four divisions of doctrine, to wit, [when the highest things are attained by an attitude of] (1) disinterestedness, or (2) amity, or (3) perfect mindfulness, or (4) perfect concentration.4.23 (Cattaari dhamma-padaani: Anabhijjhaa dhamma-pada.m, avyaapado dhamma-pada.m, sammaa-sati dhamma-padaa.m. sammaa-samaadhi dhamma-padaa.m.) -------- N: The Co. explains dhammapada as portions of Dhamma (dhammako.t.thaasa). They are leading principles. The subco: the path of dhamma must be practised, therefore the term dhammapada is used. ---------- N: The first division is non-attachment (anabhiija); the Co glosses alobha. It states: under the heading of alobha (siisena, or under the category of alobha): jhaana, vipassanaa, magga, phala (fruition) and nibbaana are attained. The subco: or with the ten meditations on foulness (the cemetary meditations) there are these attainments. ------ N: These meditations can be a condition for alobha. It is implied that for the attainment of enlightenment vipassanaa has to be developed to the degree of lokuttara pa~n~naa. -------- The second division is non-anger. The co: under the heading of non- anger or mettaa: jhaana, vipassanaa, magga, phala (fruition) and nibbaana are attained. subco: By the four brahma-vihaaras there is the obstruction of hate, keeping beings welfare in mind. ------- The third division: perfect mindfulness. The co: it is firmly established sati with regard to the four Applications of Mindfulness. The subco: refers to the ten recollections (anussati) and the loathsomeness of food. The ten recollections are: the recollection of the Triple Gem, of siila, of generosity, of the devas, mindfulness of death, mindfulness occupied with the body, mindfulness of breath, mindfulness of peace (nibbaana). -------- The fourth division: perfect concentration. this is calm, including the eight attainments: ruupa-jhaana and aruupa-jhaana. subco: It is said: with the attainment of the jhaanas. It refers to the ten kasinas and anapanasati. The subco refers to anapanasati as the cause of bringing to fulfillment the seven factors of enlightenment, clear vision (vijja) and deliverance (vimutti). We read in the Anapanasati sutta (transl by ven. Nyanatiloka): The same is stated about the other enlightenment factors (of investigation of dhamma, energy, rapture, tranquillity, concentration and equanimity). We read in the Co. to the Anapana Sati Sutta: The Co states that it is thus elsewhere (in other texts), but that in this sutta it is handed down that the mundane foundations of mindfulness perfect the mundane enlightenment factors, and that these perfect clear vision (vijj), deliverance (vimutti), fruition (phala) and nibbana, which are lokuttara. Because in this sutta clear vision and deliverance designate clear vision, fruition (phala) and nibbana.> In this part of the Sangiiti sutta four aspects were given and these refer to the development of calm, even to the degree of jhaana, and to vipassanaa. The subco. states that pa~n~naa padhaana is not given here, since this section is on the Fours, thus there is a fourfold classification. Pa~n~naa developed in vipassanaa is indispensable for the attainment of enlightenment and this is implied. One could not understand the seven enlightenment factors, without understanding the naama and ruupa appearing at this moment. If one does not know what mindfulness, direct awareness of naama and ruupa is, one could not understand the mindfulness enlightenment factor. We learn from these four portions of dhamma that the individual inclinations of people are different. There is no rule that anybody should develop the ten aspects of foulness of the body or the loathsomeness of food. Any subject can be a support to eliminate lobha or dosa. In order to attain enlightenment one should not take any reality for self. -------- Co Pali: Dhammapadaaniiti dhammako.t.thaasaani. Anabhijjhaa dhammapada.m naama alobho vaa alobhasiisena adhigatajjhaanavipassanaamaggaphalanibbaanaani vaa. Abyaapaado dhammapada.m naama akopo vaa mettaasiisena adhigatajjhaanaadiini vaa. Sammaasati dhammapada.m naama suppa.t.thitasati vaa satisiisena adhigatajjhaanaadiini vaa. Sammaasamaadhi dhammapada.m naama samaapatti vaa a.t.thasamaapattivasena adhigatajjhaanavipassanaamaggaphalanibbaanaani vaa.... ---------- Nina. #99136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana: Vipassana or Jhana + Vipassana? nilovg Dear Alex, In this post you raised many things that were discussed before. Many duties I have to do prevent me from analysing the suttas on this subject. My apologies, Nina. Op 12-jul-2009, om 19:44 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Satipatthana promises full awakening or Anagamiship in as little as > 7 days and the longest time it gives seems to be 7 years. #99137 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: seclusion, viveka. nilovg Dear Alex Op 12-jul-2009, om 19:57 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > One of the factors of seclusion IS physical seclusion. ------- N: I did not deny this. For the development of jhaana, according to the Visuddhimagga, one has to find a suitable monastery, not to noisy or with many visitors. Also in this list was mentioned; bodily seclusion, mental seclusion and upadhiviveka: seclusion form the substratum of rebirth, that is by the attainment of final nibbaana. There are several aspects and classifications of viveka. ------ Nina. #99138 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:51 am Subject: Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. sprlrt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ronlp86" wrote: > > I have some question on Buddhist philosophy. > > 1. Why does Buddhism try to stop all desires? When all desire ends, so does life. If an enlightened person has truly lost all desire than they will have also lost the desire to live and will cease breathing and die. Absolutely no desire=no life. The Buddhist path is about devoloping understanding of dhammas now, while they arise & fall, inc. lobha (desire), in order to abandon them and be free from them. Suppressing them through samadhi, concentration on a conceptual object, like the upper lip or nostrils while breathing, is part of the pre-Buddhist path, the development of jhanas. > 2. If We dont really exist and part of enlightenment is realizing this than why do we not just kill everyone? After all, They dont exist and neither do we so everything is empty and worthless and suffering doesnt really matter. In fact, arent we doing them a favor by ending their illusion of life? > Killing someone or oneself doesn't stop anything, and in the long run it just makes things worst, more unpleasant. "One's" khandhas will keep arising & falling just like they did before. > 3. Why compassion? If nobody really exists and suffering is an illusion as well as all other feelings, thoughts, and perceptions, than why keep compassion? It is also just a feeling and expression so it is also an illusion correct? > Metta is maha-kusala citta & cetasikas, accompanied either by neutral or pleasant feeling, these are paramattha dhammas, real in absolute terms and, being anatta, can only arise because of conditions. Its object is living beings that (mis)take themselves to be real in an absolute sense. > 4. Karma states that you get back what you put out. It is like an equal exchange. Well, how can one ever escape bad karma? Because we do more harm by being alive than we do good no matter what we do. For example, everytime I scratch my arm I kill many little living things that come together to make up my skin cells. Whenever I swallow I destroy whatever little bacterial creatures are living in my mouth. I destroy them by the millions everyday, and there is no way to balance the vast ammount of harm done just being being alive to any good deeds we do. Simply being alive is so destructive that every living being would end up in a naraka at death according to karma. > Karma is real, as it is its result, vipka. One can only escape this at parinibbana, the end of the Buddhist path. According to tipitaka (Expositor, Discourse on kamma) the akusala kamma involved in intenionally killing living beings, inc. oneself, is proportional to the size of the victim(s), I'd say neglibible in the case of bacteria, assuming one would take antibiothics for the purpose of killing bacteria and not for the purpose of improving one's health - different cittas, dosa-mula (rooted in anger, vyapada-kamma) the first, lobha-mula (rooted in attachment, abhijjha-kamma) in the second case. > Before you think Im a bitter hindu or muslim or Christian or person of another religious view please note that I am an agnostic that once had a big interest in buddhism and found the meditation techniques to be helpful in quieting the mind and overcoming stress. But I could not get over these hurdles in the philosophy of the religion and couldnt seperate the meditation techniques from the philosophy because the meditation techniques are based on the philosophy in how they are taught to you. It almost drove me nuts. Id love to hear what you all think. > I take the Dhamma to be the only way out of samsara, not a philosophy or a relaxation technique. Alberto #99139 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster nilovg Dear Alex, I am not able to go over the texts. But in the Patthanaa we learn that akusala can be a condition for kusala by way of natural decisive support-condition, pakatuppanissaya-paccaya. This does not mean that akusala is good, akusala is akusala. But we have to look carefully at the different types of condition. You speak about not doing anything, and apathic teaching. This point was also discussed before. I better leave it. Nina. Op 10-jul-2009, om 23:36 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > That sort of temporary craving & conceit IS GOOD. #99140 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: seclusion, viveka. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex > Op 12-jul-2009, om 19:57 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > One of the factors of seclusion IS physical seclusion. > ------- > N: I did not deny this. For the development of jhaana, according to > the Visuddhimagga, one has to find a suitable monastery, not to noisy > or with many visitors. > Also in this list was mentioned; bodily seclusion, mental seclusion > and upadhiviveka: seclusion form the substratum of rebirth, that is > by the attainment of final nibbaana. > There are several aspects and classifications of viveka. > ------ > Nina. Dear Nina, (and all) Thank you for your reply. I agree that viveka is of many kinds, what I disagree with is some peoples interpretation to remove physical seclusion aspect of Buddha's teaching and somehow attach it just to the mental aspect (which is already taken by citta & upadhi viveka) With metta, Alex #99141 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. truth_aerator Hi Sarah and all interested. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Nina, Howard & all, > > --- On Tue, 23/6/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N:We may > > believe that this particular person, this place and this situation > > are the causes of our unhappiness. However, these are not the real > > causes. The real cause is our accumulated dosa. > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- - > > H: This sounds like a defense of a view of non-responsibility for > > one's > > actions, Nina. > .... > S: This is exactly the same as a discussion I was having with one of my brothers and his partner. They believe that if someone else behaves badly (as they see it, of course) or speaks wrongly, that they should be told, even if it causes distress. For example, if someone (like my mother)rebukes their children with a lack of consideration, the children (if disturbed) should answer back or their parents should, in return, rebuke my mother. They thought that to keep quiet and 'pretend' all was well indicated a lack of truthfulness. > > Jon and I tried to indicate that the problem is our expectations of others and that the real problem is not 'the other person' but our own concerns. Consideration and truthfulness on our part often means keeping quiet, rather than creating further dismay by 'speaking out', perpetuating the cycle of blame and justification of our own actions. We learn to be more understaning and show more gentleness and care. It's interesting too, that often those who object most to being treated/spoken to in a particular way are the same people who often feel most strongly that they should 'speak out' when aggrieved. > > My view was also suggested to be a 'sweeping under the carpet' approach, but my brother and his partner restrained from speaking out, everything ended happily and the 'mediation' seemed to have been appreciated. > > Yes, we are not 'the world manager' and the dosa never helps. Rather than pointing to others' dosa or wrong deeds/speech, we learn more about our own cittas, develop more friendliness and care for the others rather than concern about how we are treated. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > Wow, Sarah. What you've wrote is really good, though in some situations appropriate response may be wholesome (at least from a worldly pov). If child is crawling toward the poisonous snake, isn't it wholesome to grab the child and remove him from dangerous situation? With metta, Alex #99142 From: "Chew" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:02 am Subject: Re: space, continued. Part 2. chewsadhu Dear Nina, Sarah, Han, Chew: Agree, aakaasa ruupa does not arise directly from the four main causes of matter; and it depends on the groups of material phenomena to arise. Which means, when the groups of material phenomena (kalaapa) are arising, aakaasa ruupa also are arising; when kalaapa are ceasing, aakaasa ruupa also are ceasing. --- Sarah: It is asabhaava for the same reason (i.e. it doesn't have its own arising and falling away like sabhaava ruupas) and it is therefore "not easily known".) --- Chew: What does it mean it doesn't have its own arising and falling away? And also not easily known? --- Sarah: In the Visuddhimagga [6], it indicates that the 10 appanihita or asabhava rupas are "not suitable for comprehension since they are merely the mode-alteration and the limitation-of-interval".> --- Chew: Ok, the ten kinds of non-concretely produced matter are not considered to be concrete entities because they lack intrinsic natures and thus do not enter into the range of insight contemplation. As the above statement not suitable for comprehension. --- Sarah: Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:11 am Subject: Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. truth_aerator Hi Alberto and Ron, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: > The Buddhist path is about devoloping understanding of dhammas now, >while they arise & fall, inc. lobha (desire), in order to abandon >them and be free from them. And how does one see rise and fall? From Samadhi "The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness." - SN22.5 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html Inquisitive people of many nationalities have been pondering on the nature of the world, mind & body. But only the Buddha found the answer through his rediscovery of N8P of which Jhana form an important part of the practice. In fact the Buddha awoken to Jhana and he DISCOVERED IT. Buddha has awoken to (some translate "Discovered") Jhana SN 2.7 The Jain leader doubted the possibility of 2nd Jhana at all. SN 41.8 After unsuccessful attempts at awakening using other peoples methods, Gotama remembered his Jhana experience and that it IS path to awakening . MN36 WHy not? Thus, verily, monks, concentration *is the way*, non-concentration the no-whither way. Samadhi Maggo, asamadhi kummaggo AN6.64 The Buddha couldn't practice Jhana following a common practice of bodily mortification. Another extreme practice (of sensual gratification) also doesn't support Jhana. Bodily mortification & sensual indulgence were the two most common practices known to people of those times. Only the Middle Path, discovered by Buddha, supports Jhana and teaches Jhana as samma-samadhi. > Suppressing them through samadhi, concentration on a conceptual >object, like the upper lip or nostrils while breathing, is part of >the pre-Buddhist path, the development of jhanas. Is there a direct sutta quote for that? There were no Jhana as part of N8P prior to Buddhism. There was even very little meditation prior to the Buddha. A lot of Hindu meditation methods we see today are borrowed from the Buddha. > Suppressing them through samadhi, concentration on a conceptual >object, like the upper lip or nostrils while breathing, is part of >the pre-Buddhist path, the development of jhanas. Buddha no where has talked about suppression. He taught us the method, the N8P of which Jhana as part of N8P are Buddha's Unique discovery. "Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana,. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you." - MN152 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.152.than.html With metta, Alex #99144 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Good to catch up with all your discussions (slowly). Pls be patient with replies to a large back-log I have. Anyway, jumping to the most recent: --- On Mon, 13/7/09, Alex wrote: >Wow, Sarah. What you've wrote is really good, though in some situations appropriate response may be wholesome (at least from a worldly pov). If child is crawling toward the poisonous snake, isn't it wholesome to grab the child and remove him from dangerous situation? ... S: Thx Alex! Whether any action or speech is wholesome depends on the citta at any moment of course. Yes, of course we will 'grab the child' if we can - probably with very mixed cittas, including plenty of fear. Also with the 'speaking out', again it may be wholesome or unwholesome or with mixed cittas....this is where the understanding and honesty come in to know the cittas better for what they are. The same words can be said with metta or anger. Meditation in action, Alex! Looking forward to catching up with your other posts... Metta, Sarah ======= #99145 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:27 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Howard, It's fun to pop in on old friends unannounced from time to time. I'm glad to see so many old, familiar faces still here. -Dan > Hey, Dan!! > > Nice to her from you!!! :-) > #99146 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Sarah, Italy, Australia, Fiji...not bad! Somewhat of a strange mix, don't you think? Re: thread choice. Mostly random. -Dan > Hi Dan, Alberto & all, > > Great to see you! Looking forward to reading your discussion with Scott - always interesting to see which thread/topic you make your appearance in:). > #99147 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:45 am Subject: TYPOP Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 D: "Hmmm...Howard must mean 'Be nice to her!!!' But why did he phrase it so clumsily? He must be drunk." I'm glad you straightened me out. -Dan > Hi again, Dan - > > "her" = "hear" in the following! ;-) > > > In a message dated 7/12/2009 8:50:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Hey, Dan!! > > Nice to her from you!!! :-) > > With metta, > Howard > > #99148 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Dan, --- On Tue, 14/7/09, Dan D. wrote: >Italy, Australia, Fiji...not bad! Somewhat of a strange mix, don't you think? .... S: conditions, conditions....long story re family, work, surf and so on:) .... >Re: thread choice. Mostly random. .... S: Random conditions? Hope Lisa and the boys are doing well. Are you still living in Oregon area? Metta, (Jet-lagged) Sarah ========= #99149 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sarahprocter... Hi Alberto & Connie, A week back with books.....:-) ... >C: "Actually" truth is truth and of the two ... well, it's actually a third that isn't - or that absolutely no way obtains. >A: The two truths can only be told (akkhsi) by words (vacna), very much like lies, but hearing the truths, unlike hearing lies or even half-truths, can condition (with yoniso manasikara, proper considering what one's hearing) the arising of satipatthana, where words have no meaning (i.e. no paatti), the whole lot being just a single dhamma, sadda rammana/yatana (or rpa, if reading them). .... S: Alberto, what do you think of the following from U Silananda's Abhidhammattha Sangaha hand-outs: "Two kinds of truth recognized in Buddhism: a) Conventional Truth, and b) Ultimate Truth a) Conventional Truth (Sammuti Sacca): 1. Conventional Truth is that which conforms to the convention or usage of the world, e.g., a car. 2. It is called Sammuti Sacca in Paa.li. 3. It is also called Pa~n~natti = concept 4. Two kinds of Pa~n~natti: a) Naama-pa~n~natti = name-concept, which makes things known, i.e., names given to objects. b) Attha-pa~n~natti = thing-concept, which is made known, i.e., the objects conveyed by the names or concepts. 5. Pa~n~natti is timeless. b) Ultimate Truth (Paramattha Sacca): 1. Ultimate truth is that which conforms to reality, i.e., consciousness. 2. It is called Paramattha Sacca in Paa.li. 3. It is defined as 'the ultimate or correct thing' because a) it is real as it is, it is not otherwise than is stated, not like things at magic shows, or mirage, etc., b) it is self-seen, self-realized, that which can be seen or experienced by oneself, not like things known from hearsay which may or may not be real." **** >C: Concepts in no way obtain the sense doors. They might condition the mind by object (predominance) condition but are not conditioned (by the mind or otherwise). They don't experience. Sabhava doesn't apply; continuity applies - so yea, the time thing. .... S: Connie, what do you think of the following, also taken from U Silananda's Abhidhammattha Sangaha hand-outs: "Aaramma.na-adhipati: (Conditioning): desirable 18 nipphanna ruupas, 84 cittas other than 2 dosamuula cittas, 2 mohamuula cittas, body cons. with pain, 47 cetasikas other than dosa, issaa, macchariya, kukkucca & vicikicchaa, all taken intensely and belonging to past, present and future, and Nibbaana which is timeless. [S: No pa~n~natti] (Conditioned): 8 lobhamuula cittas, 8 mahaakusala cittas, 4 mahaakiriya cittas accom. by ~naa.na, 8 supramundane cittas, 45 cetasikas other than dosa, issaa, macchariya, kukkucca, vicikicchaa and appama~n~na, all of which take their objects intensely. .... Metta, Sarah ======== #99150 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:10 am Subject: Re: TYPOP Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Dan - In a message dated 7/13/2009 12:46:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: D: "Hmmm...Howard must mean 'Be nice to her!!!' But why did he phrase it so clumsily? He must be drunk." I'm glad you straightened me out. --------------------------------------- LOLOL! Yeah, drunk!! (Not really - I don't drink, but probably slap-happy! ;-)) -Dan ========================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99151 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: e-card from Casperia, nr Rome sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sun, 28/6/09, A T wrote: >>S: We are now in a beautiful, small, Medieval, walled village on a hill, >about 2 hrs from Rome. W A:> Hello Sarah (and all interested). I wish you a pleasant trip. >Why is it that physical actions are allowed, but "formal" meditation isn't (or at least, looked down at)? .... S: I appreciated your kind wishes. When sight-seeing, do you have any idea that it's 'the Path' or the way to develop satipatthana? When in "formal" meditation, do you have any idea of it being a quicker Path or way to develop satipatthana? .... >Not all meditators "do things" with a Self view. Self view, willing, controlling, trying to change what is is an OBSTACLE to proper Buddhist meditation. .... S: Like the removal of the snake, doesn't the 'wholesome' or 'unwholesome', the 'self view' or 'right view' come down to the citta at this very moment? We agree that "trying to change what is is an OBSTACLE to proper Buddhist meditation". So if the reality now appearing is visible object or sound (regardless of where we are), isn't the knowing of the presently appearing reality ("what is"), the "proper Buddhist meditation"? .... >One doesn't need to go further than MN118 sutta to see the set of instructions there: >===== Regarding formal instructions ============ = "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.1 Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out... Points: 1. ... having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building... ...... S: "...a monk, having gone...." It could also be "a lady, having gone to Rome..." ... >2. "sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect" .... S: " ...a monk......sits down..." It could also be "....a lady....wanders around...." ... >3. and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." .... S: "...a monk......develops mindfulness....breathes in..." It could also be "....a lady.....develops mindfulness.....visible object, seeing, attachment...." .... >What are they other than being INSTRUCTIONS on things to do. .... S: A description of a monk who has previously developed samatha, developing satipatthana and a description of a lay-woman travelling around, developing satipatthana. Read the rest of the sutta....whilst putting on robes, going to the bathroom, eating, walking....daily life, present realities regardless to be known - rupas, feelings, consciousness with lust and so on... ... >Note: This process is Anatta as well. But being a conditioned process doesn't deny that it happens. .... S: It is the dhammas themselves that are anatta. Yes, there are many, many different conditioned dhammas in any so-called 'activity'. No one can make any 'activity' occur because there is no control by any self over the various dhammas arising now. ... >"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' ... >[16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment. ' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment. ' >"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.118. than.html >4. He trains himself [step 3-16] >Explain that within the "no training" perspective. .... S: Cittas, cetasikas and rupas only. There is training, but no trainer, there are the cittas, cetasikas and rupas we call "a monk developing samatha and satipatthana" and there are the cittas, cetasikas and rupas we call "a woman in Rome". All conditioned dhammas to be known, that's all. ... >Don't turn a noble 8fold path (which includes Satipatthana, an important ingridient) into a 1fold path. >I know the idea of "an Arahant while cooking" sounds nice. I myself would wish that to be the case. No need to work hard... Just be a happy clam under 6 feet of books... I do like to read myself... But unfortunately reading is not the path. But one must bust one's butt and sweat it out... .... S: Show me the sutta which says "one must bust one's butt and sweat it out". Alex, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you like reading a lot (more than almost anyone else here), but you feel you're on the wrong path when you're reading and instead you have to do that which makes you miserable and achieves what? A mis-understanding of various attainments and more attachment to results, supposedly ticking off the stages in "Progress of Insight", but not understanding the true nature of namas and rupas as appearing now as we speak. Metta, Sarah ======== #99152 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: seclusion, viveka. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 13-jul-2009, om 17:23 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Thank you for your reply. I agree that viveka is of many kinds, > what I disagree with is some peoples interpretation to remove > physical seclusion aspect of Buddha's teaching and somehow attach > it just to the mental aspect (which is already taken by citta & > upadhi viveka) ------- N: Could it be that they are afraid that some people may separate the mental seclusion and the physical seclusion? I think that the point was that, when you are in a secluded place, there is no guarantee that you are also removed from sensuous thoughts. Nina. #99153 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:19 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Scott, Just a few brief comments... You write: "Jhaana is real. Practitioners with stories are a dime a dozen." Yup and yup, but I'd caution against outright denial (and the associated scorn) of someone's jhana claims by citing some vague generalities: "These advocates misunderstand the uncontrollability of dhammaa and believe in a self who can practice no matter what they say to the contrary." "uncontrollability of dhammaa"?! This sounds more like fatalism than Dhamma. In a striking contrast, Buddha says, "Manopubbangama dhamma; manosettha, manomaya." Mind precedes all dhamma. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. [Dhp 1:1] Dhammas are a product of mind, and the mind controls them. Granted, dhammas don't seem to ever do what "we" want them to, but that's due to a lack of training and a clinging to the "we" and the "want" rather than inherent uncontrollability of dhammas. "Anatta" does not mean "no control", but the "anatta = no control" formulation can be a useful check on gross clingings to the illusion of Self. It is true that no one can attain jhana while harboring the notion of a Self that can be trained to control dhammas, it is also true that such harboring is subject to rise and fall. And then: "what the jhaana advocates write about jhaana as experience and it is often incoherent, inconsistent, contradictory, sensationalistic, quasi-mystical, and doesn't conform with the texts I read." It doesn't matter. Language is a funny thing. The dhammas/experiences are one thing, and putting together the descriptions is quite another. Even very brief moments of understanding are packed with meaning and so startling different from the everyday thinking about things that the language someone uses to describe them will often sound incoherent, inconsistent, contradictory, etc. Making it especially difficult is that the moments can pass so quickly, while the descriptions--encumbered by a slow, clumsy process of concept-construction--muddle their way along, never quite hitting the target and sometimes even seeming to be a mile off. Usually, incoherent, inconsistent, contradictory, sensationalistic language is a sign of a muddled thinking, but sometimes it might just be: (i) an inartful description of true understanding, or (ii) your own misunderstanding of the words they use. The laws of chance dictate that the quick judgment: "Muddled Thinking!" will usually be right, but "usually right" is not a good enough excuse to cultivate ditthi. With metta, -Dan #99154 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 > >Re: thread choice. Mostly random. > .... > S: Random conditions? Fantastic, Sarah! You caught me! There was nothing at all random about the choice. In everyday language, "arbitrary" would have been a better word. I thought about bringing that up in the original post, but it didn't make a lot of sense to do so. In Dhamma language? Hmmm...the question is not well-defined for a Dhamma discussion. -Dan #99155 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) - meditation sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Thu, 25/6/09, Alex wrote: >Proper meditation is about non-doing, disengaging self-views and relinquishing attachments. .... S: Or is it about developing undersanding and detachment? Bhaavanaa or "'mental development' (lit. 'calling into existence, producing') is what in English is generally but rather vaguely called 'meditation'." (Nyantiloka). Without understanding, pa~n~naa, there's no bhaavanaa or meditation. ... >When you sit down and close your eyes, you are temporarily relinquishing sights. When you sit in a place outside of smells and activity, you are relinquishing smells and things 'to do'. ..... S: There may not be conditions for visible objects or smells to appear (though this may be debated), but there are plenty of conditions for attachment (to concepts of) visible objects and smells to arise regardless, unless one is an anagami. As the sutta Rob K posted indicated, visible objects and smells are to be known when they appear, not to be avoided. ..... >When you watch the breath and you don't control it, you are relinquishing that aspect of control. .... S: When you watch the breath and seem to control it, there is a false idea of Self controlling. ... >You refine the mind's awareness and can focus more and more on the arising & ceasing of mental states. .... S: Self trying to control and be aware again... .... >The more the mind lets go, the deeper into peace and tranquillity the mind goes. The more control you try to do (Let me reach this or that Jhana! Where is awakening! I want to awaken) the more disturbed the meditation is. ... S: We agree at last on the last sentence. Yes, lobha and wrong view lead to a lot of disturbance. There are degrees of such lobha and wrong view and the more subtle kinds of trying to be aware, watching/controlling breath, relinquishing sights etc have to be known too as conditioned dhammas of no value. .... >The meditation is a great place to see Anatta-in-action. Mental states are out of control. *I* cannot will this or that mind states. Hindrances happen regardless of the wish to the contrary. So what is left to do is to give up control. This giving up of control is anatta as well. But as the 'giving up' happens, hindrances start to fall away. .... S: The only meditation or 'place to see Anatta-in-action' is at this moment, the seeing now of what appears for what it is, without any selection at all or wish to see. There is no control, so no 'giving up' of it to do. Just the wrong views and other dhammas to be known for what they are when they appear, any time, any place. Metta, Sarah ======== #99156 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Mike), You wrote to Mike: --- On Thu, 25/6/09, kenhowardau wrote: >I agree with you on all the important points about anatta, but I want to continue hounding you about the Buddha's so-called conventional teachings. I do this simply to make the point that anatta cannot be taken too far. It can be taken 'not far enough' - and that will lead to anomalies in Dhamma study - but it can never be taken too far. .... S: Yes, I like this point you've made before. .... M: > > Of course the entire body of the teachings circles round and directs toward insight, no question in my mind. Everything in the texts not directly encouraging insight contributes to laying the groundwork for its cultivation (such as the structure of the sa"ngha, for example), as I see it. But that's a different thing from saying that every single word he ever spoke referred to insight either directly or indirectly. ... S: > OK, agreed. I don't think I've ever said the latter quite like that. ---------- K:> Harrumph! Sarah is too easy on you. :-) ... S: I knew you'd 'Harrumph' here....:) ... K:> I think K Sujin is quoted as having said: "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana. " As I understand it, that means that even the Buddha's most mundane-sounding utterances were to be understood in terms of conditioned dhammas. For example, when the Buddha advised [some of] his monks to practise jhana, they were to understand jhana as a conditioned dhamma. When he told jhana meditators to occasionally walk up and down a path in order to get healthy exercise they were to understand 'volition to walk' (etc) as a conditioned dhamma - something over which there was no real control. ... S: Yes, I agree - everything "to be understood in terms of conditioned dhammas". We don't read suttas in isolation. However, I think Mike's point was also valid when he said that this is different "from saying that every single word he ever spoke referred to insight.....". It's like if we discuss a gift for a friend. We know from our studies that whilst having such a discussion that there are only conditioned dhammas and that whilst giving a gift there are only conditioned dhammas. That doesn't mean that the discussion about the gift is really to point to these conditioned dhammas, or does it? Looking forward to the next 'Harrumph':-). Metta, Sarah p.s Thx again for all your help while we jet-around. ======== #99157 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:08 pm Subject: Re: seclusion, viveka. Re to Sarah, as well truth_aerator Dear Nina, Sarah and all, >Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 13-jul-2009, om 17:23 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > Thank you for your reply. I agree that viveka is of many kinds, > > what I disagree with is some peoples interpretation to remove > > physical seclusion aspect of Buddha's teaching and somehow attach > > it just to the mental aspect (which is already taken by citta & > > upadhi viveka) > ------- > N: Could it be that they are afraid that some people may separate the > mental seclusion and the physical seclusion? I think that the point > was that, when you are in a secluded place, there is no guarantee > that you are also removed from sensuous thoughts. > Nina. No where have I said that one can think all one wants in physical seclusion or that physical seclusion is good enough BY ITSELF. It goes without saying that mental seclusion is a must. But for a person with right view it is be helpful, while an unwise person may avoid seeing the truth everyone - secluded or not. There are LESS distractions in secluded place and less possibilities for physical interaction that can produce lust and/or anger. When a person is busy in daily life there is a big tendency to forget seeing the realities happening now, which BTW, can only be seen FROM SAMADHI. Upanisa sutta. In order to have yathabhutananadassana, samadhi is prerequsite. Secluded place is a helpful place for it. Even the famous "Satipatthana sutta" says that one needs to remove "having removed covetenous & displeasure for the world. " vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam, Just try to "vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam" , when in a busy marketplace or at a bus stop. Anagamis can do this, but anyone prior to that and without jhanas usually cannot. If you can remove 5 hindrances that weaken wisdom while being in such places, good for you, for many people cannot. Superficial samatha = superficial seeing as it is. DEEP samatha as part of N8P = deep insights. >Sarah:When sight-seeing, do you have any idea that it's 'the Path' >or the way to develop satipatthana? Can you truly do it as Satipatthana sutta says: "having removed covetenous & displeasure for the world." vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam? Isn't desire to go around the world to enjoy nature a part of abhijja? MN68 does state that the Jhana removes hindrances (abhijjhadomanassam is part of them), and without jhana the hindrances can come and remain. >When in "formal" meditation, do you have any idea of it being a >quicker Path or way to develop satipatthana? It is the only path and satipatthana PROPERLY done and not taken out of context of other 7 factors of N8P can bring Arhatship in 7 days. Recall that: They will surely reach the far shore [Nibbana] like a fish when the net is cut, Who having attained the jhanas, are diligent with flaws discarded." SN 2.11 Jhana IS the path to awakening - MN36 Jhana Is what Buddha awakened to. AN9.42 & SN2.7 Note: During or after Jhana one has strong enough mindfulness to penetrate the veil of Delusion and see realities as they are. Just see MN111 sutta. No wonder why the below sutta quote: "These two are different, they dwell far apart: the householder supporting a wife and the unselfish one, of good practices. Slaying other beings, the householder is unrestrained. Constantly the sage protects other beings, is controlled. As the crested, blue-necked peacock, when flying, never matches the wild goose in speed: Even so the householder never keeps up with the monk, the sage secluded, doing jhana in the forest. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.12.than.html >S: Cittas, cetasikas and rupas only. There is training, but no >trainer, there are the cittas, cetasikas and rupas we call "a monk >developing samatha and satipatthana" and there are the cittas, >cetasikas and rupas we call "a woman in Rome". All conditioned >dhammas to be known, that's all. Sarah, I don't deny the fact that it is possible to zoom in and analyze things in terms of those 3 realities. Just like quantum Physicist sits on a chair and uses a chair knowing that it is 99% empty of solid matter, it doesn't change the fact that certain events (which can be disected into citta, cetasika, rupa) do happen. Until we see that there are only those 3 samsaric realities, it is only talk. Certain places are better to see realities appearing now. No need to go to Rome or Paris. Namarupa happens now, but the business keeps us from looking deep inside. >S: Show me the sutta which says "one must bust one's butt and sweat >it out". "Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html "There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.005.than.html "For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this: 'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I.' For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, the Teacher's message is healing & nourishing. For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this: 'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, one of two fruits can be expected: either gnosis here & now, or if there be any remnant of clinging-sustenance non-return." - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html With metta Alex #99158 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:00 pm Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Howard), [waiting for Italian bed-time, it seems.....conditions for no sleep!] --- On Wed, 24/6/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: H:>> Also true, however, is that proper action doesn't > consist only of passivity. In fact, passivity often is immoral. ------ >N: Passivity is a difficult notion. When considering citta, it is never passive, always busy knowing one object or other. The point is: is citta accompanied by beautiful cetasikas, thus, kusala citta, or by akusala cetasikas, thus, akusala. When the citta is kusala citta it knows how to motivate action and speech in the wholesome way. ... S: I like this. Citta is never passive. And even if there is no apparent action or speech, if the citta is wholesome, it's certainly not "passive". It would have been a good point in my discussion in Italy. Metta, Sarah ========= #99160 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) - meditation truth_aerator Hi Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Thu, 25/6/09, Alex wrote: > >Proper meditation is about non-doing, disengaging self-views and relinquishing attachments. > .... > S: Or is it about developing undersanding and detachment? Bhaavanaa or "'mental development' (lit. 'calling into existence, producing') is what in English is generally but rather vaguely called 'meditation'." (Nyantiloka). Without understanding, pa~n~naa, there's no bhaavanaa or meditation. > ... By understanding I also mean "letting go off hindrances which obstruct vision and feed the ignorance" Before 5 hindrances (or they may be called abhijjhadomanassa for short) are knocked out, one is blind, period. Development helps to pacify these hindrances so that wisdom can break through. It is *impossible* to do proper Satipatthana (which is capable of delivering Arhatship in 7 days or even less) unless one follows the instructions found in the satipatthana sutta "vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam" >When you sit down and close your eyes, you are temporarily relinquishing sights. When you sit in a place outside of smells and activity, you are relinquishing smells and things 'to do'. > ..... > S: There may not be conditions for visible objects or smells to >appear (though this may be debated), According to CMA and suttas manasikara , or engagement is one of the causes. When you have 0 desire at this moment to see or to hear then you will NOT SEE OR HEAR. The fact that you can hear while doing meditation is because you WANT to hear. You still have craving for the external world of sights, sounds and so on. > but there are plenty of conditions for attachment (to concepts of) >visible objects and smells to arise regardless, unless one is an >anagami. By getting into Jhana and analyzing the reason why it is so blissful, the mind, not The Self, changes it > As the sutta Rob K posted indicated, visible objects and smells are to be known when they appear, not to be avoided. > ..... > >When you watch the breath and you don't control it, you are relinquishing that aspect of control. > .... > S: When you watch the breath and seem to control it, there is a false idea of Self controlling. > ... Not me. Pure Awareness does Not mean control. If that were the case, then having all 6 sense consciousness conscious would mean that one is controlling. This is not the case. Vinnana is one thing. Kammachanda toward Vinnana is another. > > >You refine the mind's awareness and can focus more and more on the arising & ceasing of mental states. > .... > S: Self trying to control and be aware again... > .... For those meditating with wrong views. Sure Look, Sarah, one can take what you've said and turn the table. Going to the trips, to see KS, to study dhamma, to "see realities" A: Self trying to control and be aware again... :) > >The more the mind lets go, the deeper into peace and tranquillity the mind goes. The more control you try to do (Let me reach this or that Jhana! Where is awakening! I want to awaken) the more disturbed the meditation is. > ... > S: We agree at last on the last sentence. Yes, lobha and wrong view lead to a lot of disturbance. There are degrees of such lobha and >wrong view and the more subtle kinds of trying to be aware, So all your talk about seeing citta, cetasika, rupa and so on is just a " Self trying to control and be aware again... " watching/controlling breath, relinquishing sights etc h > >The meditation is a great place to see Anatta-in-action. Mental states are out of control. *I* cannot will this or that mind states. Hindrances happen regardless of the wish to the contrary. So what is left to do is to give up control. This giving up of control is anatta as well. But as the 'giving up' happens, hindrances start to fall away. > .... > S: The only meditation or 'place to see Anatta-in-action' is at this moment, And present moment awareness is hard to achieve, even in meditation, for those not skillful. Most of the time the minds of untrained people are wondering in the past or the future. > >S: The only meditation or 'place to see Anatta-in-action' is at this >moment, A: Self trying to control and be aware again... >the seeing now of what appears for what it is, without any selection >at all or wish to see. It is Manasikara. (No desire for sights = no seeing at that moment) and kammavipaka from previously done kamma can result in pleasant or unpleasant sights. Same with other sense organs. >S:There is no control, so no 'giving up' of it to do. Just the wrong >views and other dhammas to be known for what they are when they >appear, any time, any place. How isn't this a "A: Self trying to control and be aware again..." How isn't your talk about developing understanding & seeing realities not be a "Self trying to understand and remove avijja? With metta, Alex #99161 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) nichiconn Hi Sarah, Alberto, All, >C: Concepts in no way obtain the sense doors. They might condition the mind by object (predominance) condition but are not conditioned (by the mind or otherwise). They don't experience. Sabhava doesn't apply; continuity applies - so yea, the time thing. S: Connie, what do you think of the following, also taken from U Silananda's Abhidhammattha Sangaha hand-outs: "Aaramma.na-adhipati: (Conditioning): desirable 18 nipphanna ruupas, 84 cittas other than 2 dosamuula cittas, 2 mohamuula cittas, body cons. with pain, 47 cetasikas other than dosa, issaa, macchariya, kukkucca & vicikicchaa, all taken intensely and belonging to past, present and future, and Nibbaana which is timeless. [S: No pa~n~natti] (Conditioned): 8 lobhamuula cittas, 8 mahaakusala cittas, 4 mahaakiriya cittas accom. by ~naa.na, 8 supramundane cittas, 45 cetasikas other than dosa, issaa, macchariya, kukkucca, vicikicchaa and appama~n~na, all of which take their objects intensely. .... C: If I'd bothered to look at CMA Table 8.3, I wouldn't've added "(predominance)" but would've still wondered, so thanks for catching it. In the chart, concepts as conditioning states are only listed for Object & ("some concepts" for) Natural Decisive Support conditions; no listing for concepts as conditioned. I was probably thinking things like an idea of nibbaana or idea of jhaana could be adhipati for anyone who hadn't actually attained them, but they cannot. thanks, connie #99162 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Nina, Howard & all, > > --- On Tue, 23/6/09, Nina van Gorkom vangorko@... wrote: > > N:We may > > believe that this particular person, this place and this situation > > are the causes of our unhappiness. However, these are not the real > > causes. The real cause is our accumulated dosa. > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- - > > H: This sounds like a defense of a view of non-responsibility for > > one's > > actions, Nina. > .... > S: This is exactly the same as a discussion I was having with one of my brothers and his partner. They believe that if someone else behaves badly (as they see it, of course) or speaks wrongly, that they should be told, even if it causes distress. --------- Hi Sarah and all, I think you have explained in the past that, without satipatthana, there can be no development of kusala. There can be kusala, but no development of it. That means there can be no conventional wisdom, doesn't it? And I think experience bears that out. For every conventional argument *against* something (for example, against speaking one's mind or "trying to be the world's manager") there can be an equally good conventional argument in *favour*. We can argue that only our own bad qualities can ultimately harm us. And, even in conventional terms, that argument can sound convincing. But it won't hold up for long. Without some proof of the ultimate *reality* of good and bad qualities, why should anyone listen? Why shouldn't they be equally convinced by the opposite argument and fight tooth and nail against their external enemies? Without satipatthana there can be no clear way out. And so, if our friends aren't interested in satipatthana, there is not a lot we can do for them, is there? Ken H #99163 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:03 pm Subject: 1st jhaana mental factors nichiconn Hi again, Howard, Not really looking it up, but just happened to read a better answer to my question. CMA II.21(i): In the sublime types of consciousness, first in the three types of first jhaana consciousness, thirty-five states enter into combination, namely, the thirteen ethically variable mental factors and twenty-two beautiful mental factors, excluding the three abstinences (13+22=35). But here compassion and appreciative joy should be combined separately. c: So 33 or 34 (if either illimitable is there) at one time. I think I said 'at least' 34. Also, altho I wasn't including it when I asked: CMA II.19(i): First, in the eight types of supramundane first jhaana consciousness, thirty-six factors enter into combination, namely, thirteen ethically variable and twenty-three beautiful mental factors, excluding the two illimitables (13+23=36). peace, connie ps. no need to answer & apologies for pestering you about things you've already expressed a lack of interest in... just wanted to give the book answer & correct myself. thanks, c. #99164 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:48 pm Subject: Supramundane Jhaana nichiconn Dear Alex, (James,) You had asked about the term supramundane jhaana. Skip to the 3rd paragraph if you like, Alex. I thought you'd rather read the whole thing, James. peace, connie CMA, Guide to I.30-31: All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the development of wisdom (pa~n~naa) - insight into the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self. However, they differ among themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samaadhi). Those who develop insight without a basis of jhaana are called practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). When they reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level corresponding to the first jhaana. Those who develop insight on the basis of jhaana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhaana they had attained before reaching the path. The ancient teachers advance differentviews on the question of what factor determines the jhaana level of the path and fruit. One school of thought holds that it is the basic jhaana (paadakajjhaana), I.e. the jhaana used as a basis for concentrating the mind before developing the insight that culminates in attainment of the supramundane path. A second theory holds that the jhaana level of the path is determined by the jhaana used as an object for investigation by insight, called the comprehended or investigated jhaana (sammasitajjhaana). Still a third school of thought hold that when a meditator has mastered a range of jhaanas, he can control the jhaana level of the path by his personal wish or inclination (ajjhaasaya). Nevertheless, no matter what explanation is adopted, for bare insight meditator and jhaana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhaana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhaanas, and because they possess the jhaana factors with with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhaanas. The supramundane jhaanas of the paths and fruits differ from the mundane jhaanas in several important respects. First, whereas the mundane jhaanas take as their object some concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the supramundane jhaanas take as their object Nibbaana, the unconditioned reality. Second, whereas the mundane jhaanas merely suppress the defilements while leaving their underlying seeds intact, the supramundane jhaanas of the path eradicate defilements so that they can never again arise. Third, while the mundane jhaanas lead to rebirth in the fine-material world and thus sustain existence in the round of rebirths, the jhaanas of the path cut off the fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in liberation from the round of birth and death. Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane jhaanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the supramundane jhaanas wisdom and concentration are well balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep significance of the Four Noble Truths. According to the constellation of their jhaana factors, the path and fruition cittas are graded along the scale of the five jhaanas. Thus instead of enumerating the supramundane consciousness as eightfold by way of the bare paths and fruits, each path and fruition consciousness can be enumerated as fivefold according to the level of jhaana at which it may occur. When this is done, the eight supramundane cittas, each taken at all of the five jhaanic levels, become forty in number, as shown in Table 1.10. #99165 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. truth_aerator Hi Ken and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > I think you have explained in the past that, without satipatthana, there > can be no development of kusala. There can be kusala, but no development > of it. > > That means there can be no conventional wisdom, doesn't it? And I think > experience bears that out. For every conventional argument *against* > something (for example, against speaking one's mind or "trying to be the > world's manager") there can be an equally good conventional argument in > *favour*. > > We can argue that only our own bad qualities can ultimately harm us. > And, even in conventional terms, that argument can sound convincing. But > it won't hold up for long. Without some proof of the ultimate *reality* > of good and bad qualities, why should anyone listen? Why shouldn't they > be equally convinced by the opposite argument and fight tooth and nail > against their external enemies? > > Without satipatthana there can be no clear way out. And so, if our > friends aren't interested in satipatthana, there is not a lot we can do > for them, is there? > > > Ken H > Hi KenH, Satipatthana (DN22) has a phrase in the beginning, even before 1st satipatthana "having removed covetenous & displeasure for the world. " "vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam" And how does one do that? In MN68 it is said that Jhana (or at least state immediately prior to that) does that! Again, 5 hindrances block the arising of wisdom. Jhana removes 5 hindrances and allows the wisdom to come through to the thick mind. The satipatthana doesn't have to be stand-alone. Ven. Sariputta did see rise & fall of nama&rupa in Jhana. MN111. Furthermore, the Satipatthana sutta has a strange set of instructions about seeing external feelings & mind states. This implies telepathic abilities, abilities that can be gained FROM JHANA, especially 4th one. In DN#2 the vipassana nana happen based on 4th Jhana. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/02-samannaphala-e2.h\ tml It is interesting that about 1/3 or DN sutta talk about the same path of sense restraint, virtue, getting into jhanas, achieving liberation. DN# 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 Satipatthana is only ONE sutta and that requires hindrances to be removed by the means of Jhana. Recall that Jhana IS the path to awakening - MN36 to which the Buddha awoke SN2.7 . Interesting side note: jhana is mentioned at least 126 times in DN. vipassana = 3 times in DN. Tipitaka (including vinaya & Abh) in pali mentions jhanam = 2516 times vipassana = 218 times satipatthana = 680 times With metta, Alex #99166 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. onco111 Hi Ken H, You write: "Without satipatthana there can be no clear way out. And so, if our friends aren't interested in satipatthana, there is not a lot we can do for them, is there?" Be creative! Most people aren't interested in "satipatthana", "dhammas", "nivarana", "manopubbangama dhamma", etc., but many are indeed interested in satipatthana, dhammas, nivarana, manopubbangama dhamma. Can you find ways to talk about it without closing ears? -Dan #99167 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Description or doctrine/instruction? (was, Re: effort.) - meditation ksheri3 HI Alex, Isn't it true that when you let go you then deprive yourself of the benefits of that which you cast aside and cast away? So, which is the doctrine speaking of: holding on to hallucinations or casting away those hallucinations? What fun, huh? I luv it man, these Tantras are working splendidly! toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: <....> > By understanding I also mean "letting go off hindrances which obstruct vision and feed the ignorance" > > > Before 5 hindrances (or they may be called abhijjhadomanassa for short) are knocked out, one is blind, period. Development helps to pacify these hindrances so that wisdom can break through. > > It is *impossible* to do proper Satipatthana (which is capable of delivering Arhatship in 7 days or even less) unless one follows the instructions found in the satipatthana sutta > "vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam" > <...> #99168 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:11 pm Subject: The River! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What are the 4 & very best Right Efforts? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these four right efforts. What four? Here, Bhikkhus: 1 Preventing Avoidance: One generates desire for the non-emergence of yet unarisen evil disadvantageous mental states, one makes an effort, one arouses energy, redirects mind, & strives enthusiastically to prevent bad from arising. 2 Overcoming Elimination: One generates desire for the quick elimination of already arisen bad detrimental states, one makes an effort, arouses energy, redirects mind, and one strives enthusiastically for eradication of all wrong... 3 Initiating Development: One generates desire for the arising of yet unarisen advantageous mental states, one makes an effort, one arouses much energy, redirects the mind, and strives enthusiastically for the birth of good states... 4 Maintaining Enhancement: One generates desire for the fixed maintenance of already arisen advantageous states, for their stable increase, expansion, & final fulfilment by development, one makes an effort, one arouses energy, redirects the mind, and strives enthusiastically for sustaining all right & good... These are the four right efforts! Bhikkhus, just as the river Ganges slants, slopes, and inclines towards the East, even so does a Bhikkhu, who develops and cultivates these Four Right Efforts slant, slope, slide, glide and incline directly towards Nibbāna! The 4-Fold Right Effort! <....> If Good: GO! If Bad STOP! Keep on doing just that! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikāya. Book [V:244] section 49: The 4 Efforts. 1: River Ganges. Have a nice & advantageous day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The River of Right Effort runs only Good! #99169 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. truth_aerator Hi KenH and all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > You write: "Without satipatthana there can be no clear way out. And so, if our friends aren't interested in satipatthana, there is not a lot we can do for them, is there?" > > Be creative! Most people aren't interested in "satipatthana", "dhammas", "nivarana", "manopubbangama dhamma", etc., but many are indeed interested in satipatthana, dhammas, nivarana, manopubbangama dhamma. Can you find ways to talk about it without closing ears? > > -Dan > Here is a hint, KenH, (and all other DSG'ers) on how to convince me and others: Prove your point using sutta quotes. With metta, Alex #99170 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 1st jhaana mental factors upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 7/13/2009 8:04:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: ps. no need to answer & apologies for pestering you about things you've already expressed a lack of interest in... just wanted to give the book answer & correct myself. thanks, c. ============================ It's true, I have little interest and close to no knowledge of such matters, but, truly, I'm happy for you that you do. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99171 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. upasaka_howard Hi, Dan (and Ken) - In a message dated 7/13/2009 8:54:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@... writes: Most people aren't interested in "satipatthana", "dhammas", "nivarana", "manopubbangama dhamma", etc., but many are indeed interested in satipatthana, dhammas, nivarana, manopubbangama dhamma. ============================ Dan, you make, IMO, a brilliant and important distinction here. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99172 From: westbankj@... Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... farrel.kevin Hi Ann, great to hear from you! I enjoyed that dinner very much. I would love to do it again in Bangkok. It was a nice experience. Looking forward to doing it again sometime. :) Kevin #99173 From: westbankj@... Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... farrel.kevin Hi Jon! Thanks for the welcoming note. Dhammas can be confusing, so it is easy to get sidetracked. Not understanding the dhamma, how can wisdom develop? Thus it is so rare that people cross over to the other shore, I think. I know that I certainly got sidetracked. In my case it was adopting certain wrong views. I think that Mahayana, when you really look at it does have some logical explanations for things, however, I don't think everything they say adds up in the end. I did accept some of the things that they put forth about reality which Theravada disagrees with. This was partly because, as I said, they have some good arguments (though in the end I don't think it all adds up well). What's more interesting, I think, are some of the possible psychological reasons that I let myself believe those things and accept those views, and not so much the specifics of what views I did adopt. I'm in school again and I just finished taking Psychology 101. Of course, that is just an introduction to Psych, nevertheless, it got me thinking in new ways. I started to realize that some of the views I had adopted and decisions I made may have been motivated by psychological factors that I had never realized. For example, I think it is a lot easier psychologically to accept the Mahayana view that all dhammas are empty and not truly arisen than it is to accept the Theravada view that there are some dhammas that are real but that you as a self-having individual, are not. It's harder on the old ego to think that something is real but that you are not than it is to think that all dharmas are just empty and not really arising. Also, it is a lot easier to think that although there is anatta that there can be omniscience and some kind of activity after parinibbana (the Mahayana view of Buddhas). It is a lot closer to having some "thing" that is a self thing. Perhaps in my case my ego pulled out some stops to make me believe in some individual self, some "thing". But, sabbe dhamma anattaa. It would be really interesting to see someone do some original research on psychological reactions and defense mechanisms concerning the doctrine of anatta in Buddhists, but the people who would do such work are probably few and far between. Nor would it be completely accepted in the Psychological academia either because of the Buddhist premise, but it might open some soft scientists eyes to abhidhamma that happened to give it a read. Anywho... Kevin #99174 From: westbankj@... Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... farrel.kevin Hi Sukin, great to hear from you. I look forward to participating and to reading your posts of course. I want to learn more about dhamma than I ever did before. ________ #99175 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:08 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 Dear Dan, Regarding: D: "Just a few brief comments..." Scott: I'd hate to see lengthy comments. ;-) Well, see below for that, I guess. D: "...I'd caution against outright denial (and the associated scorn) of someone's jhana claims by citing some vague generalities..." Scott: I'd caution people to keep their jhaana claims to themselves - to each his own, eh? D: "'uncontrollability of dhammaa'?! This sounds more like fatalism than Dhamma..." Scott: You've read here long enough to know the drill, I suppose. No further commment on this, Dan, asked and answered, as they say. D: "In a striking contrast, Buddha says, "Manopubbangama dhamma; manosettha, manomaya." Mind precedes all dhamma. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. [Dhp 1:1]" Scott: I appreciate the textual material. I think you misunderstand 'mind.' Here (a couple of translations, the Paa.li): Dhammapada 1-2: 1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. 2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow. (Ven. Buddharakkhita) 1. Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. 2. Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, because of that, happiness follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves. (Ven. Naarada) 1. Manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa, - manose.t.thaa manomayaa, Manasaa ce padu.t.thena - bhaasati vaa karoti vaa, Tato na.m dukkham-anveti - cakka.m va vahato pada.m. 2. Manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa, - manose.t.thaa manomayaa, Manasaa ce pasannena - bhaasati vaa karoti vaa, Tato na.m sukham-anveti - chaayaa va anapaayinii. Scott: There is also AN 1 (6): "Monks, whatsoever states are unwholesome, partake of the unwholesome, pertain to the unwholesome - all these have the mind as their forerunner. Mind arises as the first of them, followed by unwholesome states. "Monks, whatsoever states are wholesome, partake of the wholesome, pertain to the wholesome - all these have the mind as their forerunner. Mind arises as the first of them, followed by wholesome states..." 1. 6. 6. Ye keci bhikkhave dhammaa akusalaa akusalabhaagiyaa akusalapakkhikaa, sabbe te manopubba"ngamaa. Mano tesa.m dhammaana.m pa.thama.m uppajjati, anvadeva akusalaa dhammaati. 1. 6. 7. Ye keci bhikkhave dhammaa kusalaa kusalabhaagiyaa kusalapakkhikaa, sabbe te manopubba"ngamaa. Mano tesa.m dhammaana.m pa.thama.m uppajjati, anvadeva kusalaa dhammaati. Scott: Atthasaalinii (pp. 162, 185-186) clarifies: "Mind (mano) is minding, that is, it discerns (cognizes). But the authors of the Commentary say: like measuring by the naa.li or balancing by a great weight, mind knows the object. It exercises governance (over associated states) by the characteristic of measuring, hence it is a controlling faculty, giving the compound 'mind-faculty.' It is just a synonym for consciousness (citta) mentioned above." "...In the exposition of consciousness, 'consciousness' (citta) is so called because of its variegated (citta) nature. 'Mind' (mano) is so called because it knows the measure of an object. 'Mental action' (maanasa) is just 'mind'...maanasa (sense impression) is [an adjunct of] mano...'Mind as an organ of mind' - here as [an act of grasping] 'mind' (mano) is declared to be a sense-organ (aayatana)...Vi~n~naa.na is cognizing. Vi~n~naa.na-khandha is consciousness as an aggregate Let's see how this jives with the following views you posit: D: "Dhammas are a product of mind, and the mind controls them. Granted, dhammas don't seem to ever do what 'we' want them to, but that's due to a lack of training and a clinging to the 'we' and the 'want' rather than inherent uncontrollability of dhammas. 'Anatta' does not mean 'no control', but the 'anatta = no control' formulation can be a useful check on gross clingings to the illusion of Self." Scott: This is inaccurate I think, Dan. I'd advise you check on the meanings of 'dhamma'. In the above, 'mano' is the Paa.li for 'mind' (see Atthasaalinii, above). Mind *is* dhammaa - cittaa, cetasikaa, and I think that 'mano' refers to the function of 'mind' (citta, cetasika). It makes no sense when you assert that 'dhammas are a product of mind'. In the phrase 'the mind controls them' to what do you refer when you refer to 'mind'? Consciousness (citta) and mental factors (cetasika) have their own characteristics and functions - there is no uber-controller. And who is it who uses 'the anatta = no control' formulation' as 'a useful check'? In the phrase 'due to a lack of training', can you clarify that which 'lacks training' and that which 'trains'? As I understand it, the development of dhammaa proceeds by conditions. The characteristic of anatta is uncontrollability. Dan: "It is true that no one can attain jhana while harboring the notion of a Self that can be trained to control dhammas, it is also true that such harboring is subject to rise and fall." Scott: Please explain this, if you would, Dan. I'd have thought that all the jhaana attainers during the Buddha's time were doing just fine in that regard, for instance - no doubt fully imbued with Self. Remember, I'm making the point that jhaana attainment does not come easily in this day and age - not that it isn't what it is. As I've noted, jhaana is real. I doubt many have the requisite accumulations to do it today. This is the commentarial position, as I understand it. This is what I'm suggesting, the corollary of which is: If it can't be done, focus on something that can - and quit fooling yourselves. D: 'And then: 'what the jhaana advocates write about jhaana as experience and it is often incoherent, inconsistent, contradictory, sensationalistic, quasi-mystical, and doesn't conform with the texts I read.' It doesn't matter. Language is a funny thing. The dhammas/experiences are one thing, and putting together the descriptions is quite another..." Scott: I've not been clear, I'm afraid. I'm not speaking of the inability to describe jhaana in words. I'm talking about how jhaana advocates talk about all sorts of 'insights', thoughts, visions and such , experienced purportedly *during* jhaana when it is clear that jhaana is consciousness that does not partake of the five senses at all and that none of the stuff they are talking about has anything to do with jhaana. D: "Even very brief moments of understanding are packed with meaning and so startling different from the everyday thinking about things that the language someone uses to describe them will often sound incoherent, inconsistent, contradictory, etc. Making it especially difficult is that the moments can pass so quickly, while the descriptions--encumbered by a slow, clumsy process of concept-construction--muddle their way along, never quite hitting the target and sometimes even seeming to be a mile off. Usually, incoherent, inconsistent, contradictory, sensationalistic language is a sign of a muddled thinking, but sometimes it might just be: (i) an inartful description of true understanding, or (ii) your own misunderstanding of the words they use. The laws of chance dictate that the quick judgment: 'Muddled Thinking!' will usually be right, but 'usually right' is not a good enough excuse to cultivate ditthi." Scott: I doubt it, Dan. Here it seems you are talking about thinking only. I don't buy the theory you propose. Anyway, it seems to refer to 'understanding' and I thought we were talking about 'jhaana.' I think you mean 'brief moments of understanding' to mean something other than the function of pa~n~naa. The object of jhaana-citta is its only focus. None of the other will be going on during jhaana. Anyway, this was not brief. I think I get where you are coming from. I guess your reply will tell, and we will likely have to agree to disagree - I've read your stuff before. This is more of the same... :-) Sincerely, Scott. #99176 From: westbankj@... Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... farrel.kevin Hi Robert, Thanks for the message! I hope you enjoyed the trip to Cambodia. Thanks a lot for your warm words and generosity! I would love to come back but I won't have any problems paying for the guesthouse. I'll take a cappuccino though! I'd love to come back, but I don't think that right now I can came back for five months time. After I finish school (3 years until I get my degree in nursing) I'd like to come back and spend a year or ten in Bangkok before I start working as a nurse here. I hope you will still be in Thailand then. Anyhow, I would certainly like to plan a holiday (at least one) to Thailand before that time. I'll have to wait off for at least a few months though so I really don't know when it will be at this point. It would be nice to come in Feb when Nina suggested, but at this point I can say that it will be possible then for sure. I'll see if I can make that happen though. It feels good to read the posts here on DSG. True Dhamma is hard to come by. Kevin In a message dated 7/10/2009 11:56:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear Kevin I just got back from a trip to Cambodia with Junko and I couldn't have read anything more pleasing. It was great having you here in Bangkok - why not return for another 5 months, you know how to live on a tight budget. In fact I will cover your guest house accomodation while you are here. best robert #99177 From: westbankj@... Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhammas, dhammas, dhammas... farrel.kevin Hi Nina! I would love to come in February. At this point I am not sure though between work and school. I will see what I can do to plan a trip for that time. I look forward to coming back to Bangkok. Hopefully I will get to see you there. I updated my website recently ( _www.the-bodhi-tree.net_ (http://www.the-bodhi-tree.net) ) and I have some of your books on it that I got from Zolag. Is that OK? Thanks, KEvin #99178 From: westbankj@... Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Annata No self. farrel.kevin Hi _ronlp86@..._ (mailto:ronlp86@...) , (sorry I do not know your name!), I think it is important to understand the difference between paramattha dhammas, or ultimate realities, and concepts, in this case. Paramattha dhammas are real in the ultimate sense. Concepts are only real in a relative sense. the notion of a "Self" is just a concept. Therefore, it has nothing to do with reality in the ultimate sense. Both "self" and "no self" are just delusional concepts born out of ignorance. Really the Buddha taught neither. He taught ultimate reality-- there are dhammas and all of those dhammas are not-self. I hope this helps. Kevin In a message dated 7/13/2009 2:00:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ronlp86@... writes: Does Buddhism ever in any way totally deny the existence of a self? I know that Buddha would often say what was NOT the self, such as thoughts, feelings, perceptions, emotions, etc etc. However I have heard that when he was asked flat-out whether or not there was a permanent underlying self that he simply refused to answer because to say there definitely was or wasnt a self was to fall into extremes and neither one was quite correct. So, Is it that there is a self but it cannot be described by what it is and therefore can only be hinted at by what it is not? If this is the case then I can see why it would not really be called a "Self" because the normal concept of a "self" is exactly those qualities which the Buddha himself stated was not the self, and yet, we exist. Perhaps it is much like in taoism where it says that the tao that can be spoken of in words is not the true tao. Either that or its just total nihilism, which is depressing. #99179 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Dan (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 7/13/2009 8:54:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > onco111@... writes: > > Most people aren't interested in "satipatthana", "dhammas", "nivarana", > "manopubbangama dhamma", etc., but many are indeed interested in > satipatthana, dhammas, nivarana, manopubbangama dhamma. > ============================ > Dan, you make, IMO, a brilliant and important distinction here. > > I'm not sure I follow you, Dan (and Howard). I was talking about people with no interest in satipatthana. People such as the family members Sarah has been talking with. Not about anyone here. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > You write: "Without satipatthana there can be no clear way out. And so, if our friends aren't interested in satipatthana, there is not a lot we can do for them, is there?" > > Be creative! Most people aren't interested in "satipatthana", "dhammas", "nivarana", "manopubbangama dhamma", etc., but many are indeed interested in satipatthana, dhammas, nivarana, manopubbangama dhamma. Can you find ways to talk about it without closing ears? > > -Dan > #99180 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Sarah, --------- <. . .> S: Yes, I agree - everything "to be understood in terms of conditioned dhammas". We don't read suttas in isolation. However, I think Mike's point was also valid when he said that this is different "from saying that every single word he ever spoke referred to insight.....". ----------- I wouldn't want to be seen as stubborn in any way. :-) So I am trying to give some ground in this discussion. But where? Quoting K Sujin, I have been saying that every word of the Buddha's teaching should be understood in terms of satipatthana. I haven't said "every word the Buddha *ever spoke*." Even so, now that you mention it, I can't imagine that the Buddha ever did speak for non-Dhamma-related purposes. Suppose, for example, that he asked Ananda to hand him his alms bowl; would that have been for purely mundane purposes? I doubt it. Hmmm, that has only made matters worse, hasn't it? ------------ S: > It's like if we discuss a gift for a friend. We know from our studies that whilst having such a discussion that there are only conditioned dhammas and that whilst giving a gift there are only conditioned dhammas. That doesn't mean that the discussion about the gift is really to point to these conditioned dhammas, or does it? -------------- Is that your best shot? :-) Sorry, I don't see how that has anything to do with it. Ken H #99181 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: >> > I think you have explained in the past that, without satipatthana, there > can be no development of kusala. There can be kusala, but no development > of it. > >__________ Dear Ken very wrong idea. In fact even with self view fully intact, without even one moment of satipatthana wise men before the Buddha devloped even until the eigth jhana (real ones). robert #99182 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation rjkjp1 Dear Ken Nicely summarized I think, I save this on my forum. robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > -------- > > So do you try to tell me that you can equally well develop > satipatthana at marketplace or strip club as you would be able to do in > physical seclusion? > -------- > > Yes, no doubt about it! Wherever you are right now is the best place > for satipatthana development. In fact, it is the only place. > > It is the only place because any idea of continued existence (which > would be necessary for reaching another place) would be contrary to > satipatthana. > > -------------------- > A: > What about access concentration? Can it equally well be developed > for beginners at a mall or strip club Vs in a physical retreat? > -------------------- > > That depends on how you define the 'beginner' who wants to take the next > step towards jhana. It could be (1) someone who knows with certainty > whether the present citta is kusala or akusala. Or it could be (2) > someone who does not yet have any such highly developed knowledge. > > In case (1) further development would require seclusion. In case (2) > just the present situation is sufficient. > > ------------------------------- > A: > What about Jhana? Can it equally well be developed for beginners at > a mall or strip club Vs a physical retreat? > ------------------------------- > > My answer would be the same as for access concentration because (correct > me if I am wrong) I have always thought it was a stage of jhana > development. (?) > > Ken H > #99183 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q: Can one exit samsara faster jonoabb Hi Alex (99048) > Nina, Jon (this one is for you as well) > > In MN76 the above is called a holy life not worth living. If awakening cannot be made to occur faster or slower, if whatever happens happens due to predetermined causes & conditions then there IS NO PURPOSE IN DOING ANYTHING. If a person commits heinous crimes, he isn't to blame. If a person does everything right, the same thing. > Everybody is alike. Some sort of apathetic teaching. > =============== You seem to have misunderstood what has been said. There has been no denial of the efficacy of deeds. There has just been the assertion that the development of understanding is a matter of the arising of understanding rather than the doing of certain actions designed to bring about such understanding. Jon #99184 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Alex (99077) > Buddha has awoken to (some translate "Discovered") Jhana SN 2.7 > =============== The mention of the Buddha having "discovered" jhana in SN 2:7 is contained in words spoken by a deva when addressing the Buddha. However, the Buddha in his reply pointed out that his attainments are in the area of insight and the noble path. The passage does not support the proposition that jhana was not known before it was taught by the Buddha. Jon #99185 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:11 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Dan Nice to see you back! Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Scott, you write: "I doubt that you or Alex or anyone advocating jhaana that I've read here will attain jhaana." > > Are you sure? > > Don't let your doubt become a fetter! > > -Dan #99186 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvinient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Alex (99050) > Hi KenH, Jon, and all interested, > > > So do you try to tell me that you can equally well develop satipatthana at marketplace or strip club as you would be able to do in physical seclusion? > =============== In the case of mindfulness/insight, the Buddha urged its development in all circumstances and situations. See this extract from a sutta quoted by you in a recent post: "And what more is to be done? We will be possessed of mindfulness & alertness. When going forward and returning, we will act with alertness. When looking toward and looking away... when bending and extending our limbs... when carrying our outer cloak, upper robe, & bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & tasting... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, we will act with alertness': That's how you should train yourselves. [From MN 39; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/98827] The Buddha did not identify one place or situation as better for the development of awareness/insight than another. Of course, he encouraged those with the accumulations for jhana to pursue a lifestyle that would support jhana development and its preservation (jhana once attained is easily lost), but over and above that he pointed out that awareness/insight was to be developed regardless of the present circumstances. Jon #99187 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:17 am Subject: Re: seclusion, viveka. jonoabb Hi Nina (99083) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex and Jon, > I came across some texts that may be of interest to you with regard > to your discussions about seclusion. > We read in the anapanasati sutta (transl by ven. Nyanatiloka): > enlightenment factors perfect clear vision and deliverance? > Herein, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops the mindfulness enlightenment > factor dependent on seclusion, on fading away, on cessation, > resulting in relinquishment..> > The same is stated about the other enlightenment factors > With regard to the word seclusion (viveka), which is seclusion from > defilements, we read about the meaning in the Co to the "Root of > Existence" (Mulapariyaya sutta, as tr. by Ven. Bodhi)that there are > five kinds of seclusion, or abandoning: by substitution of opposite > factors(tadanga pahana), by suppression (in jhana), by eradication > (by the four paths), by tranquillization ( by the four fruitions) and > by escape (nibbana). As regards abandoning by substitution of > opposite factors (tadanga pahana), this occurs during the development > of the stages of insight. The personality view is abandoned by the > first stage of insight: defining nama and rupa, distinquishing their > different characteristics, and by each of the higher stages there is > abandoning by opposite factors. > =============== Many thanks for this. Interesting the equating of seclusion viveka) with abandoning (pahana -- above) and fading away and cessation (viraga and nirodha -- below). It keeps getting more complicated! Jon > As to the words of the sutta, fading away (viraga) and cessation > (nirodha), these have the same meaning as seclusion, viveka... #99188 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:22 am Subject: Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. jonoabb Hi ronlp86 Welcome to the list from me. (99119) > I have some question on Buddhist philosophy. > > 1. Why does Buddhism try to stop all desires? When all desire ends, so does life. If an enlightened person has truly lost all desire than they will have also lost the desire to live and will cease breathing and die. Absolutely no desire=no life. > =============== I would describe the aim of Dhamma as the understanding of things as they really are (insight development). The falling away of all kilesa (desire, aversion and ignorance) is a corollary to that. But even when all kilesa have been eradicated, life may continue (as it did for the Buddha after his enlightenment) as long as past kamma has not been exhausted. Trying to stop or reduce desire is not conducive to the development of insight. > =============== > 2. If We dont really exist and part of enlightenment is realizing this than why do we not just kill everyone? After all, They dont exist and neither do we so everything is empty and worthless and suffering doesnt really matter. In fact, arent we doing them a favor by ending their illusion of life? > =============== I think you are referring to the teaching of "not-self"? Not-self is a characteristic of dhammas that is gradually understood as insight is developed. The idea that "we don't really exist" is some folks' way of expressing the idea of not-self, but it's not something that was ever said by the Buddha. The way the Buddha put it was "All dhammas are not-self". > =============== > 3. Why compassion? If nobody really exists and suffering is an illusion as well as all other feelings, thoughts, and perceptions, than why keep compassion? It is also just a feeling and expression so it is also an illusion correct? > =============== Wishing for the well-being of others and concern for the suffering of others are both wholesome qualities. We think in terms of other persons all the time, even the enlightened being does (but without any illusion as to what are dhammas and what are not). > =============== > 4. Karma states that you get back what you put out. It is like an equal exchange. Well, how can one ever escape bad karma? Because we do more harm by being alive than we do good no matter what we do. For example, everytime I scratch my arm I kill many little living things that come together to make up my skin cells. Whenever I swallow I destroy whatever little bacterial creatures are living in my mouth. I destroy them by the millions everyday, and there is no way to balance the vast ammount of harm done just being being alive to any good deeds we do. Simply being alive is so destructive that every living being would end up in a naraka at death according to karma. > =============== There is a mental element to kamma. Unintentionally causing the death of another being is not unwholesome kamma. > =============== > Before you think Im a bitter hindu or muslim or Christian or person of another religious view please note that I am an agnostic that once had a big interest in buddhism and found the meditation techniques to be helpful in quieting the mind and overcoming stress. But I could not get over these hurdles in the philosophy of the religion and couldnt seperate the meditation techniques from the philosophy because the meditation techniques are based on the philosophy in how they are taught to you. It almost drove me nuts. Id love to hear what you all think. > =============== I appreciate your joining in and asking questions. I hope you continue to discuss until it becomes clearer. There should be not discord between the "philosopy" and the "practice" of Dhamma. (With apologies for any repetition if others have already answered) Jon #99189 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" kenhowardau@ wrote: > >> > > I think you have explained in the past that, without satipatthana, there > > can be no development of kusala. There can be kusala, but no development > > of it. > > > >__________ > Dear Ken > very wrong idea. In fact even with self view fully intact, without even one moment of satipatthana wise men before the Buddha devloped even until the eigth jhana (real ones). > > Hi Robert, Thanks for pointing that out. I was unsure at the time about what I was saying. I knew that bhavana (mental development) included both samatha and vipassana. But, even so, I had the impression that only vipassana increased accumulations of kusala. I thought maybe samatha just allowed already-developed kusala to come to the fore - "unhindered" as it were. Glad you liked my other post, though. Thanks for saying so. Ken H #99190 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:31 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Basically, Scott, my main point is that there is a sharp, clear distinction between intellectual, discursive understanding and direct understanding of the world "as it is." It's easy to get hung up on models, words, definitions and forget about the underlying realities. Telling stories is so addicting that we pretend that our story is something more, that the story itself is the Truth. At their best, stories point out some aspect of reality in a way that conduces to deeper understanding. But even a "good story" is a hindrance when it is a persistent object of clinging and aversion. At that point, a new story or a new twist on the old story can help. Dhammas are not uncontrollable--manosettha, manomaya. There is no Self that controls them, and the conventional notions of "effort" and "directing" aren't the way to exercise control. Buddha exercised supreme control over dhammas (e.g., entering and exiting the eight jhanas and cessation at will). Mara can never overpower one...who is controlled in his senses (Dhp 1:8). The "uncontrollability of dhammaa" story can be useful to point out that "we" don't have control, but clinging to the "uncontrollability of dhammaa" story can just as easily give rise to scorn, aversion, clinging to a smart and knowing Self, etc. And specific responses... *** D: "'uncontrollability of dhammaa'?! This sounds more like fatalism than Dhamma..." Scott: You've read here long enough to know the drill, I suppose. No further comment on this, Dan, asked and answered, as they say. --> I don't ever recall discussing this with you, Scott. *** Scott: Atthasaalinii (pp. 162, 185-186) clarifies: "Mind (mano) is minding...It exercises governance (over associated states) by the characteristic of measuring, hence it is a controlling faculty, giving the compound 'mind-faculty.' It is just a synonym for consciousness (citta) mentioned above." --> Yup. 'mind-faculty' governing, controlling associated dhammas. *** Then, you wonder: "Let's see how this jives with the following views you posit:" D: (i) "Dhammas are a product of mind, and the mind controls them." --> This was just the manomaya and manosettha from Dhp, and now also the "governance" and "controlling" you bring from The Expositor. (ii) "Granted, dhammas don't seem to ever do what 'we' want them to..." --> This just expresses of an intellectual understanding of "anatta". *** Scott: This is inaccurate I think, Dan. I'd advise you check on the meanings of 'dhamma'. In the above, 'mano' is the Paa.li for 'mind' (see Atthasaalinii, above). Mind *is* dhammaa - cittaa, cetasikaa, and I think that 'mano' refers to the function of 'mind' (citta, cetasika). It makes no sense when you assert that 'dhammas are a product of mind'. In the phrase 'the mind controls them' to what do you refer when you refer to 'mind'? Consciousness (citta) and mental factors (cetasika) have their own characteristics and functions - there is no uber-controller. --> Exactly! The imagined "uber-controller" is the illusory Self. But "manopubbangama dhamma, manosettha manomaya"--one mind is author and controller of later mind. Dhammas flow--anicca, anicca, anicca. How do they flow? One conditioning and controlling the arising of the next: manopubbangama dhamma--out of the Atthasalini into the Patthana. *** Scott: And who is it who uses "the 'anatta = no control' formulation" as "a useful check"? --> In everyday language, KS, Sarah, and Jon seem to do so quite often. And Scott, too, apparently. *** Scott: In the phrase 'due to a lack of training', can you clarify that which 'lacks training' and that which 'trains'? --> I use "training" as an everyday term for satipatthana. In a long, long string of cittas, occasionally one arises with relatively clear understanding. The recognition of that moment helps condition deeper and more frequent arising of understanding later. Buddha uses terms like "training", "well-trained mind", "untrained mind" over and over and over. On the other hand, when his bhikkhus ask for help in their training, I don't recall him ever asking "what is it that lacks training?" or "what is it that trains?" And why the heck wouldn't he ask that? Maybe such a line of questioning conduces too much to distracting intellectual games and too little to insight. *** Scott: As I understand it, the development of dhammaa proceeds by conditions. The characteristic of anatta is uncontrollability. --> The first sentence makes perfect sense. The second is nonsense. Do you see any distinction between "there is no controlling Self" and "there is no control"? Or between "uncontrollability" and "complete lack of control"? *** Dan: "It is true that no one can attain jhana while harboring the notion of a Self that can be trained to control dhammas, it is also true that such harboring is subject to rise and fall." Scott: Please explain this, if you would, Dan. --> The key is "while harboring"--jhanas are kusala, notion of Self is ditthi, and n'er the twain shall meet. Jhana can arise only when ditthi does not. *** Scott: I'd have thought that all the jhaana attainers during the Buddha's time were doing just fine in that regard, for instance - no doubt fully imbued with Self. --> No, no. Not "fully imbued with Self." Not all cittas carry ditthi, e.g. kusala cittas do not. After kusala cittas arise and pass away (e.g., jhana), ditthi is bound to arise again (except after the final extinction of ditthi with arahatta magga and phala). *** Scott: Remember, I'm making the point that jhaana attainment does not come easily in this day and age... --> I'd agree that there aren't many jhana attainers these days, but there are almost certainly some. And I'd further assert that the jhana attainers like to discuss dhamma. DSG is a fine place to do that. It would not surprise me in the least if among the tiny fraction of the world's population that has attained jhana, several like to join in on DSG discussions. *** Scott: I doubt many have the requisite accumulations to do it today. --> I would agree with that. *** Scott: the corollary of which is: If it can't be done, focus on something that can - and quit fooling yourselves. --> There is a world of difference between "can't be done" and "very few can do it". One example is the dsg discussion group. My guess is that there are fewer people in the world who have the requisite accumulations to stomach the discussions on dsg than there are people who have the requisite accumulations to attain jhana. And yet there are indeed people who can stomach dsg! *** Scott: I've not been clear, I'm afraid. I'm not speaking of the inability to describe jhaana in words. I'm talking about how jhaana advocates talk about all sorts of 'insights', thoughts, visions and such , experienced purportedly *during* jhaana when it is clear that jhaana is consciousness that does not partake of the five senses at all and that none of the stuff they are talking about has anything to do with jhaana. --> "What-EV-errr!" he replied in an annoying 14 year old girl's voice, "During-schmuring." No, 'insights', thoughts (excluding vitakka and vicara w.r.t. the meditation object), visions and such do not arise during jhana, but they are likely to arise immediately before and after jhana. In a jhana-attainer's talk, talk of "...visions and such" would not be a surprise, but I would also expect to hear of a clear break between the "...visions and such" and the jhana cittas. *** D: "Even very brief moments of understanding are packed with meaning and...startlingly different from the everyday thinking about things..." Scott: I doubt it, Dan. Here it seems you are talking about thinking only. I don't buy the theory you propose. Anyway, it seems to refer to 'understanding' and I thought we were talking about 'jhaana.' I think you mean 'brief moments of understanding' to mean something other than the function of pa~n~naa. The object of jhaana-citta is its only focus. None of the other will be going on during jhaana. --> Paa arises with jhana, and 'insight' will flash like crazy going into jhana [anuloma and gotrabhu] and out of jhana [paccavekkhana]. *** Scott: I've read your stuff before. This is more of the same... :-) --> [translation] "Ho hum...You don't have anything interesting to offer." So polite! As always, it's been a pleasure, Scott. With metta, Dan #99191 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. onco111 Dear Ken, My point is that most people are interested in how the mind works even if they don't have the inclination, time, or patience to learn a bunch of technical Buddhist words. Can you find ways to talk about the mind without resorting to what they'd think are stale models? -Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Dan (and Ken) - > > > > In a message dated 7/13/2009 8:54:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > onco111@ writes: > > > > Most people aren't interested in "satipatthana", "dhammas", > "nivarana", > > "manopubbangama dhamma", etc., but many are indeed interested in > > satipatthana, dhammas, nivarana, manopubbangama dhamma. > > ============================ > > Dan, you make, IMO, a brilliant and important distinction here. > > > > > > I'm not sure I follow you, Dan (and Howard). I was talking about people > with no interest in satipatthana. People such as the family members > Sarah has been talking with. Not about anyone here. > > Ken H > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > > > Hi Ken H, > > You write: "Without satipatthana there can be no clear way out. And > so, if our friends aren't interested in satipatthana, there is not a lot > we can do for them, is there?" > > > > Be creative! Most people aren't interested in "satipatthana", > "dhammas", "nivarana", "manopubbangama dhamma", etc., but many are > indeed interested in satipatthana, dhammas, nivarana, manopubbangama > dhamma. Can you find ways to talk about it without closing ears? > > > > -Dan > > > #99192 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:40 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hello Jon! Thanks for the welcome (and all your help in the past). -Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Dan > > Nice to see you back! > > Jon > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > > > Scott, you write: "I doubt that you or Alex or anyone advocating jhaana that I've read here will attain jhaana." > > > > Are you sure? > > > > Don't let your doubt become a fetter! > > > > -Dan > #99193 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nilovg Dear Dan, Op 14-jul-2009, om 9:38 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > My point is that most people are interested in how the mind works > even if they don't have the inclination, time, or patience to learn > a bunch of technical Buddhist words. Can you find ways to talk > about the mind without resorting to what they'd think are stale > models? ------ N: Exactly, Dan. And I think that everyone is interested to know his own mind, and it is later on that we can explain that it changes and cannot be ordered to be this way or that way. We can begin with citta, without using the Pali terms. What can people experience, and how do they react. We can explain that there is so much attachment to all objects we experience and that this attachment conditions aversion: when things are not the way we like, there will be dislike. Can anyone force himself not to like certain things or not to dislike certain things? Just a few thoughts. Nina. #99194 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:41 am Subject: favorable surroundings? nilovg Dear friends, A friend asked me some questions about the development of satipatthaana which I copied: F: I have the following questions/remarks. You said that one can't force sati to arise and that it is the accumulation of moments of awareness that will condition the arising of sati in the future. You added that one can't decide when, how and if at all sati will arise. --------- N: Actually, correct understanding should be emphasized above all. Intellectual understanding (not yet direct understanding) can be accumulated by reading, listening, discussing, asking questions, writing about the Dhamma. It is understanding that accumulates little by little and this can be a condition later on for sati of the level of satipatthaana. -------- > F: However you wrote < being > aware right at this moment. First this work has to be finished, that > letter has to be written, relatives need help and take up our time so > that we believe that there is no opportunity for awareness.>> Saying > that "there seems to be an excuse for not being aware right at this > moment" means that there should be no excuse for not being aware but > then does it not contradict the fact that awareness arises on its own > accord, without the involvement of a self. If I push this reasoning a > bit further does it mean that one should not do anything except > waiting for the arising of sati and even better of pa~n~aa? ------- N: If one thinks that sati and pa~n~naa cannot arise in daily life while one is busy, one will blame the surroundings, or the many tasks that have to be performed. But the Buddha exhorted the monks to develop understanding, no matter whether they were eating, walking etc. Not doing anything but waiting for sati: no, there are many dhammas now that can be considered and investigated. We can learn that different cittas experience objects through the six doorways, one doorway at a time. We can learn more about our clinging and aversion, about conceit. These are all conditioned dhammas and we can learn that they arise without our doing anything. Even when waiting for the arising of sati: we can find out whether this is not expectation, lobha? Our goal is developing more understanding. ------- > > F: Another question is regarding the importance or not of the place > where > to practice. You are writing that seclusion is important for the > individual who wants to develop samatha and attain jhaana but not > really for someone involved in vipassana practice. You also very often > talk about the presence of conditions for certain citta//cetasika to > arise. Couldn't one say that in a center where people are relatively > well secluded from the daily life, where Dhamma talks / Dhamma study > are taking place, where sila is strong and where "[no] work has to be > finished, [no] letter has to be written, [no] relatives need help and > take up our time", there could be conditions for sati, samadhi, > viriya, sadda and consequently for pa~n~naa to arise? --------- N: I understand that there are in a center opportunities for Dhamma talks and study, and someone who explains the Dhamma. It is by conditions that one is in a center. Actually, it is not the place but as mentioned in the sutta, A II, 245: pa~n~naavuddhisutta.m. (cattaaro'me bhikkhave dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattanti. katame cattaaro? sappurisasa.msevo, saddhammasavana.m, yoniso manasikaaro, dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. ime kho bhikkhave cattaaro dhammaa pa~n~naavuddhiyaa sa.mvattantiiti. (A ii 245)) If one has not accumulated from the past an interest in the true Dhamma and wise attention, being in a center, even for days, will not help. Is siila stronger in a center? Only the sotaapanna who has eradicated the wrong view of self has siila to the degree that the five precepts cannot be transgressed. We have to take into account the latent tendencies that are lying dormant in each citta. They condition the arising of akusala citta at any time. One may delude oneself, thinking that there is more sati in a center. Awareness of what? Of visible object at this moment, attachment at this moment? Attachment to having more sati in a certain place? ------- Nina. #99195 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:45 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 4, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, All day long rpas impinge on the bodysense but we do not realize that they are only rpas. We always think of a being, the body or a thing which is touched, but these do not impinge on the bodysense. The experience of tangible object through the body-sense is one moment, and the thinking of stories about that object is another moment. There are different realities appearing at different moments through different doorways. This is the truth and it can be proven by our own experience. Body-consciousness which experiences tangible object impinging on the bodysense is vipka-citta, a citta which is the result of kamma. When it experiences a pleasant tangible object it is the result of kusala kamma and when it experiences an unpleasant object it is the result of akusala kamma. When the object which impinges on the bodysense is pleasant the body-consciousness is accompanied by pleasant (bodily) feeling, and when the object is unpleasant the body-consciousness is accompanied by painful (bodily) feeling. There cannot be indifferent bodily feeling. The object is unpleasant when the temperature which impinges on the bodysense is too cold or too hot, and it is pleasant when the temperature is just right. The pleasant feeling or painful feeling which accompanies body- consciousness is nma, it experiences something. It is different from rpa which does not experience anything. Since body-consciousness is vipka, the accompanying feeling is also vipka. Body-consciousness which experiences tangible object arises in a process of cittas which experience that object. Each citta in a process performs it own function while it experiences the object which is impinging. The body-consciousness which is vipka-citta falls away immediately and it is succeeded by other cittas. There are cittas arising within the process which can be kusala citta or akusala citta and they experience the same object as the body- consciousness. When they are kusala cittas they can be accompanied by happy (mental) feeling or by indifferent feeling, and when they are akusala cittas, they can be accompanied by happy (mental) feeling, by indifferent feeling or by unhappy (mental) feeling. These feelings can be called mental feeling in order to differentiate them from the bodily feeling which accompanies body-consciousness. As we have seen, bodily feeling is not rpa, it is nma. It can be called bodily feeling since it accompanies body-consciousness. ****** Nina. #99196 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:56 am Subject: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sprlrt Hi Sarah, Connie & all, > S: Alberto, what do you think of the following from U Silananda's Abhidhammattha Sangaha hand-outs: > > "Two kinds of truth recognized in Buddhism: > a) Conventional Truth, and > b) Ultimate Truth > > a) Conventional Truth (Sammuti Sacca): > > 1. Conventional Truth is that which conforms to the convention or usage of the world, e.g., a car. > 2. It is called Sammuti Sacca in Paa.li. > 3. It is also called Pa~n~natti = concept > 4. Two kinds of Pa~n~natti: > a) Naama-pa~n~natti = name-concept, which makes things known, i.e., names given to objects. > b) Attha-pa~n~natti = thing-concept, which is made known, i.e., the objects conveyed by the names or concepts. > 5. Pa~n~natti is timeless. > As far as I know Dhs & Cy don't refers to pa~n~natti/nirutti/adhivacana in terms of sacca, neither as sammuti nor, of course, as paramattha. Alberto Dhs 1313, 1314, 1315 Which dhammas are concept / designation / terminology? That which, of whatever dhammas, is naming, description, concept, convention, definition, name-making, denomination, language, detail, interpretation; these dhammas are concept/designation/terminology. All dhammas are within the range of concept/designation/terminology. Cy 1313. [1314, 1315] Exposition of the couplet on designation [terminology, concept] "That which, of whatever dhammas, is...", all dhammas are included [pa~n~natti itself, i.e. the boundless ocean of concepts] A name is 'named', meaning is 'conveyed' / An expression is 'expressed'. / A concept is 'conceptualized' / A convention is 'set'. 'What' is conveyed? / What is expressed? / What is conceptualized? / What is set? 'I am', 'it is mine', 'he/she/it is another', 'he/she/it is of another', 'he/she is a person', 'he/she/it is a being', 'he/she is an individual', 'he is a man', 'he is a youth', 'he is Tissa', 'she is Datta', 'it is a couch', 'it is a chair', 'it is a mat', 'it is a pillow', 'it is is a monastery', 'it is a room', 'it is a door', 'it is a window'; such are some of the fashions in which a name is 'conveyed'. / an expression is 'expressed'. / a concept is 'conceptualized'. / a convention is 'set'. Dhs 1313, 1314, 1315. katame dhammaa pa~n~natti / adhivacanaa / nirutti? yaa tesa.m tesa.m dhammaana.m sa"nkhaa sama~n~naa pa~n~natti vohaaro naama.m naamakamma.m naamadheyya.m nirutti bya~njana.m abhilaapo -- ime dhammaa pa~n~natti / adhivacanaa / nirutti. sabbeva dhammaa pa~n~natti/adhivacanaa/nirutti pathaa. Atthasalini 1313. Adhivacanadukaniddese yaa tesa.m tesa.m dhammaananti sabbadhammaggaha.na.m. San.khaayatiiti san.khaa, sa.mkathiyatiiti attho. Kinti sa.mkathiyati? ahanti mamanti paroti parassaati sattoti bhaavoti posoti puggaloti naroti maa.navoti tissoti dattoti, 'ma~nco pii.tha.m bhisi bimbohana.m 'vihaaro parive.na.m dvaara.m vaatapaananti eva.m anekehi aakaarehi sa.mkathiyatiiti 'san.khaa. Sama~n~naayatiiti sama~n~naa. Kinti sama~n~naayati? 'ahanti - pe - vaatapaananti sama~n~naayatiiti 'sama~n~naa. Pa~n~naapiyatiiti pa~n~natti. Vohariyatiiti vohaaro. Kinti vohariyati? 'ahanti - pe - 'vaatapaananti vohariyatiiti vohaaro. #99197 From: "Chew" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:36 am Subject: Re: space, continued. Part 2. chewsadhu Dear Han, Nina, Sarah, Connie, My friend in Myanmar forwarded the below information to me, it is extracted from Pali Dictionary by Ven Nyana Tiloka: ----- aakaasa: 'space', is, according to Com., of two kinds: 1. limited space (paricchinnaakaasa or paricchedaakaasa), 2. endless space (anantksa), i.e. cosmic space. 1. Limited space, under the name of aakaasa-dhaatu (space element), belongs to derived corporeality (s. khandha, Summary I; Dhs 638) and to a sixfold classification of elements (s. dhtu; M 112, 115, 140). It is also an object of kasina (q.v.) meditation. It is defined as follows: "The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Its function is to indicate the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as the confines of matter; or its manifestation consists in being untouched (by the 4 great elements), and in holes and apertures. Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. It is on account of the space element that one can say of material things delimited that 'this is above. below, around that' " (Vis.M. XIV, 63). 2. Endless space is called in Atthasaalini ajataakaasa, 'unentangled', i.e. unobstructed or empty space. It is the object of the first immaterial absorption (s. jhaana), the sphere of boundless space (aakaasaana~ncaayatana). According to Abhidhamma philosophy, endless space has no objective reality (being purely conceptual), which is indicated by the fact that it is not included in the triad of the wholesome (kusalatika), which comprises the entire reality. Later Buddhist schools have regarded it as one of several unconditioned or uncreated states (asankhata dharma) - a view that is rejected in Kath. (s. Guide. p. 70). Theravaada Buddhism recognizes only Nibbaana as an unconditioned element (asankhata-dhtu: s. Dhs. 1084). aakaasa dhaatu: 'space element'; see above and dhaatu. aakaasa-kasina 'space-kasina exercise'; s. kasina. aakaasaana~ncaayatana: 'sphere of boundless space', is identical with the 1st absorption in the immaterial sphere; s. jhaana (6). pa~n~natti -siila: 'prescribed morality', is a name for the disciplinary rules of the monk or layman prescribed by the Buddha, as distinguished from natural or genuine morality (pakati-siila; s. siila). ---- With respect, Chew #99198 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:40 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 Dear Dan, (I'll divide up the reply.) Regarding: D: "...Dhammas are not uncontrollable--manosettha, manomaya. There is no Self that controls them, and the conventional notions of 'effort' and 'directing' aren't the way to exercise control. Buddha exercised supreme control over dhammas (e.g., entering and exiting the eight jhanas and cessation at will). Mara can never overpower one...who is controlled in his senses (Dhp 1:8). The 'uncontrollability of dhammaa' story can be useful to point out that 'we' don't have control, but clinging to the 'uncontrollability of dhammaa' story can just as easily give rise to scorn, aversion, clinging to a smart and knowing Self, etc...Do you see any distinction between 'there is no controlling Self' and 'there is no control'? Or between 'uncontrollability' and 'complete lack of control'?" Scott: Consider Sammohavinodanii (pp. 57-58, 60): "But it is no-self (anatta) in the sense of powerlessness. Or because there is no exercise of power in these three instances, [namely,] 'this being arisen, let it not reach presence; having reached presence, let it not grow old; having grown old, let it not break up'; and it is void of this quality of having power exercised over it (vasavattana). Therefore it is no-self for those four reasons, [namely,] because it is void, because it has no owner, because of not behaving as desired (akaamakaariya) [and] because of exclusion of self." "But those same five aggregates are no-self because of the words 'what is painful is no-self' (S iv 1). Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self." Sincerely, Scott. #99199 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:53 am Subject: Re: Questions on Buddha's philosophy. sprlrt Hi Alex, I doubt you'll pass your Bhuddist studies 0-level with statements such as these:-) - Alberto ... > And how does one see rise and fall? From Samadhi ... >In fact the Buddha awoken to Jhana and he DISCOVERED IT. ... > After unsuccessful attempts at awakening using other peoples methods, Gotama remembered his Jhana experience and that it IS path to awakening. ... > Only the Middle Path, discovered by Buddha, supports Jhana and teaches Jhana as samma-samadhi.