#99600 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Fri, 24/7/09, Alex wrote: >I've always heard that suttamayapanna = wisdom from hearing or reading cittamayapanna = wisdom from thinking of what one has read/heard. Bhavanamayapanna = wisdom from directly SEEING things. .... S: Yes! ... >But reasoning is not unconditioned thing that Self does. It is fully conditioned by prior causes & conditions. One of the causes is learning gained from hearing others. ... S: Great! ... >It is like writers travelling around and talking to many people. They are gathering more data for their novel. All the words, ideas, relations, concepts, etc - are conditioned processes dependent on previous causes. >It is delusion to think that "I" chose to right this. It is just the certain impersonal effects from certain impersonal causes. ... S: I think we're getting somewhat more in sync, Alex! Nicely put. Btw, I thought you made some helpful comments to Ron (the new member) as well. Thx for helping any new contributors, especially if you keep the jhana seasoning out for as long as pos:-)) Metta Sarah ======= #99601 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. nilovg Dear Sarah, These are just like the advice Kh Sujin gave Gabi, Alan W. and me in Egypt a long time ago. Many good lessons, conventional or not, it does not matter. I recently typed them out and will post them here. Ken H can see whether he likes them. I appreciate any reminder for kusala, there is so much akusala in our life. Nina. Op 27-jul-2009, om 9:08 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: True - only one way out and the only way that will really have a > lasting effect. However, it's still kindness to show generosity > (even if it just feeds attachment) or to encourage kusala of any > kind (even if it all gets taken for self). We know that no one > likes to experience dosa or be unhappy in anyway, so we try to make > life a little easier and pleasanter for those around us whilst we can. #99602 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Revisit Vis. XIV. Was: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Dear Sarah, the Tiika elaborates. Op 27-jul-2009, om 9:41 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > >Vism (XIV, 14): "Understanding acquired without hearing from > others is that consisting in what is reasonaed [cintamayapa a] > because it is deduced by one's own reasoning." > ... > S: For the Buddha. ------- N: More about this in the Tiika to Vis. Ch XIV, 14. < As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this means that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing anothers words of instruction. The words, this is called, mean, this is called understanding consisting of reasoning. But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two kinds of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. The remaining understanding arises in all those with great understanding who have fulfilled the perfections. As to the words, he acquires by hearing it from another, this means: all that has been acquired by seeing spheres of work being done or having done by someone else, or by hearing someone elses words, or by learning under a teacher, all this should be understood as acquired by hearing from another. > ---------- footnote: In the Sammsambuddhas and in the Solitary Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas. -------- Nina. #99603 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:30 am Subject: Re: On doing and strange double standard. philofillet Hi all Enjoying my vacation, hope you're all well. >>>> In any case, the tendency to self-views underly ALL worldlings. So any activity would be done with that anusaya. One might as well do wholesome and abstain from unwholesome - EVEN IF IT ASSUMES WRONG VIEW OF SELF (remember the tendency is there anyways, might as well gather kusala things to set up conditions for eradication of self views). I agree wholeheartedly with Alex here. Self-view is not something that is eliminated by thinking one's way around it. It is lurking behind everything we do, no matter how much we talk about anatta. I think that if we fail to understand this, we might be set up for falling into the trap that we are making progress in eliminating self-view when we are actually just thinking with self about anattaness. It is so subtle. And there must be lobha involved in Dhamma practice as well. I liked one thing that A.S said very much, it sticks with me. There are only a few rare holes in the dome of lobha. Lobha and self-view are luring behind all our Dhamma-related activities. So to warn against conventional action because of self-view involved marks a faulty appreciation of reality. I persponally think that since that lobha has to feed somewhere, there is no danger in having a very well-developed idea of who one is, what kind of person one is becoming thaanks to the Buddha's teaching. It is a person (so to speak) who has made progress in elminating akusala tendencies who will have created the conditions for the arising of dhammas that *really* see through the deluded framework. I and others have said similar things in the past, and I know it doesn't sink in, but I guess you feel the same way about the things you say! Anyways, please reflect on how much lobha and self-view are behind whatever you say and write and especially *think* (often in the disguise of "awareness of present realities in daily life") about dhammas and the anattananess and uncontrollability of dhammas and so on! Yes, dhammas are uncontrollable, but do you fail to see how the little self-fed cittas of trying (very subtly, but there is trying, and you are encouraged to try by your teacher whether you know it or not) to controll dhammas by grasping realities in daily life!!! It is most absolutely a *double standard* that you guys operate with, absolutely, such a double standard. So why do those who don't share your views struggle so hard to get this across, why not just let it go and move elsewhere? That is the mystery. I guess it's because people like Sarah and Nina and Jon are so kind and supportive, lobha feeds on kindness. And lobha also feeds on the depth of the theory that is discussed here, I guess. It's all lobha, desire for something deep that will transcend the suffering inherent in life. Any talk of being content with thousands of aeons of lifetimes is fraudulent, I believe. I simply can't believe there is anyone here that doesn't want - isn't prey to lobha demanding - something from the Dhamma to bring satisfaction in this life. For those of use who put a lot of emphasis on conventional actions, lobha can feed there, and that means it doesn't have to feed on subtler understandings. But when your standard of understanding is so deep, lobha is feeding on deep understanding. Don't you see what I mean? Oh well, anyways, have a great summer. I'll check in and bombard you with an obnoxious missive now and then, lobha demands it! Metta, Phil #99604 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, One more buried in my stack of unanswered mail: --- On Fri, 17/7/09, kenhowardau wrote: >Sarah: > One thing for sure - there are only dhammas - namas and rupas. When the Buddha spoken and his (trained) disciples listened, there was never any doubt about this. There was also no doubt for them that there was only path ever being taught - that of satipatthana leading to full enlightenment. ------------ ------ K:> Yes, I think we can all agree on that. And perhaps it's a good point on which to end the discussion? No such luck! :-) .... S: :-) ... K:> An ordinary teacher doesn't care how we react to his words - provided that the prescribed ritual is carried out. But there is nothing ordinary about a Buddha. Therefore, given that a reaction has to be either dana, sila, bhavana, lobha, dosa, or moha, which of those would be appropriate when hearing a word of the Buddha? Surely it has to be bhavana? .... S: "Appropriate" or "Depends entirely on conditions...."? .... >That's why I am confused. Why is there some opposition here to my point about how every word of the teaching was to be understood? .... S: Every word can be understood in terms of conditioned dhammas, but that also means that those distinct dhammas are understood precisely as they are. Metta is not attachment and we also learn to understand the value of the quality of metta, therefore, as you well know. It just depends on the listener at the time what the cittas will be. ... >Admittedly, there is no control over these things, and our most common reaction to the Buddha's words will be with lobha or moha. But that doesn't make it appropriate. .... S: No, I understand your point. Someone (maybe Han or Connie) posted a sutta yesterday that had to be recited twice for the nuns to rejoice and comprehend it. ... >Conversely, one might ask, is bhavana ever an *inappropriate* reaction? Even when the subject was "teeth cleaning" I can't imagine the Buddha would ever have said, "Stop practising satipatthana while I'm talking to you!" .... S: No, never inappropriate! At all times and in all activities includes when listening to a talk on "teeth cleaning". Again, I think we are mostly in snync here.... Metta Sarah ====== #99605 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:55 am Subject: Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika sprlrt Hi Dan, > Why is "jhana condition" called "jhana condition" when it doesn't seem to have any special relationship to jhana? Paccaya is just another name for dhamma(s), when considering their conditioning nature; dhammas/factors/conditions particularly relevant to jhnas are called jhna factors/conditions, and those particularly relevant to magga, path factors/conditions; this doesn't mean that a dhamma particularly relevant for jhna or samatha bhvana doesn't arise in magga or vipassana bhvana and viceversa. Take samma-ditthi/pa~n~na for instance, the main right path/satipatthna/vipassana bhvana factor, arising as maha-kusala ~nana-sampayutta citta, exactly the the same type of citta samatha bhvana requires as well, but pa~n~na is not a jhna factor, since the object in samatha is a conceptual one (kasina) and paa here, unlike jhna factors, won't develop as much as it would in vipassana; while in vipassana the object it is a paramattha dhamma, allowing the best development of pa~n~na (samadhi, ekaggata cetasikas/one-pointedness, is the only factor that both bhvanas/developments share and that both develop). This is not to say that one should "do" vipassana rather than "doing" samatha, imo it doesn't work like that, it would only mean accumulating more miccha-jhna and miccha-magga dhammas, i.e. lobha, moha, ditthi; lobha being the main hindrance (nvarana) for samatha bhvana; and ditthi the main fetter (samyojana) for vipassana bhvana. But hearing or reading the Dhamma/sutam, along with yoniso manasikara/considering properly, just for the sake of understanding, what one is hearing/studying, just might work - no warranty though, being it all up to conditions/dhammas, rather than to individual selves... Alberto #99606 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Dan, --- On Mon, 27/7/09, sarah abbott wrote: >A great idea to visit Dan and Alex in Edmonton, .... S: Of course I meant "to visit Scott & Alex." No need to travel afar to put yourself down:-). Sarah #99607 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nilovg Dear Dan, Op 26-jul-2009, om 3:06 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven:When I showed the book to the professor, he was appalled: "Reading all those details won't do you a bit of good. You need to be able to fill in the gaps on your own to develop your own understanding." > 1. Lobha/dosa/moha, > 2. anicca/anatta/dukkha, > 3. cittas are fast. > These are fantastic models that, if understood properly, can carry > you to the final goal. The lists all flow from these models. --------- N: It depends on the individual how many details he wants to study, no rules. I bet you have your hands full finding out more about lobha, dosa and moha arising in daily life. Lobha can be intense or very subtle, there are many shades and degrees. Moha is very dangerous, it arises with each akusala citta, but mostly it is unknown. Cittas are fast, but this will be clearer when we learn at least a little more about processes of cittas. Nina. #99608 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika nilovg Dear Dan, I am glad Connie and Albert gave you good explanations. Op 26-jul-2009, om 2:25 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > You write: "Thus, the jhaanafactors, including ekaggataa cetasika, > condiiton the conascent naama dhammas by way of jhaana-condition. > This condition does not pertain to a subsequent citta." > > Right. Then what does condition jhana cittas to rise in succession > to create the phenomenon we call "jhana." ------ N: Accumulated skill, and right understanding of what kusala is, what akusala, and what real jhaana is, not what one may take for jhaana. Nina. #99609 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:09 am Subject: Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika onco111 Hi Alberto, D: Why is "jhana condition" called "jhana condition" when it doesn't seem to have any special relationship to jhana? A: Paccaya is just another name for dhamma(s), when considering their conditioning nature; dhammas/factors/conditions particularly relevant to jhnas are called jhna factors/conditions, and those particularly relevant to magga, path factors/conditions; this doesn't mean that a dhamma particularly relevant for jhna or samatha bhvana doesn't arise in magga or vipassana bhvana and viceversa. --> My "doesn't seem to have any special relationship" question was in regard to U Narada's explanation that it is jhana condition that makes it possible to take a step or complete a sentence without losing the train of thought. This goes well beyond magga or vipassana. Perhaps it is analogous to ekaggata being both a universal and a jhana factor--in jhana, jhana condition is strong, but in taking a step, it is weak. -Dan #99610 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Sarah, S: I think that if we don't get lost by the word, there are many, many suttas (such as those in AN, but not to hand now) which point to the importance of wise reflection of a word or term heard and how this is more precious that hearing a lot with no understanding. --> Right. S: Whatever the Buddha taught was for pariyatti leading to patipatti and pativedha, surely? --> By how I understand the word from the dictionaries and reading it context in tipitaka, pariyatti is memorizing texts for oral transmission to preserve the teaching. Later, when the teachings were finally written down, 'pariyatti' took on the meaning of 'scripture' and never 'intellectual understanding.' And surely, if the teaching did not survive, practice would not be possible. S: Anyway, you've made good points that I'm sure we all agree with, that pariyatti is not a matter of memorising lists and numbers! --> I think pariyatti IS a matter of memorizing lists and numbers, or at least WAS in Buddha's day. Today, the written word takes the place of the memorized word. -Dan #99611 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Nina, N: It depends on the individual how many details he wants to study, no rules. --> What about rules for studying? Do we think about the words and try to come up with intellectual theories of how all the pieces fit together? And then check our theories with the texts? Or do we sit in a corner, eyes closed and try to pay attention to dhammas, observing how the pieces fit together? -Dan #99612 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:57 am Subject: Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika nichiconn Hi Dan, C: Why do you say jhaana condition doesn't seem to have any special relationship to jhaana? --> I'm just going by the description in GCR (pp. 65-66), viz. "It is due to jhana condition that a faultless or faulty action in though, word or deed can be completely performed from the beginning right through to the end." E.g., taking a step, finishing a sentence, etc. can be accomplished due to jhana condition holding the attention to the task at hand. With appreciation, -Dan C: ditto. "In this world, all the great and wonderful discoveries, jhaana, supernormal power, Attainment, Path, Fruition and the practice of the Perfections to become a Buddha such as charity and the rest are not possible without repetition condition." (gcr 2.12) But how about reading that domanassa is a jhaana factor! o no, no, no, i thought, jhaana's gotta be good... lol. most of the live long day we're all foolishly practising wrong jhaanas; so what's jhaana? how's it different from the other 'impulse' javana? not a single one of the 19 functions of 'the mind' is 'jhaana' - no way! unless it's a class of javana distinguished in the grossest place just by not occurring in the sense door process itself; in the highest place by 'having given up greed and loathing' etc & finest of all, arahatta magga 'jhaana'? so, location & dropped/discarded factors - jhaana proper being, i think, kusala 'impulse'/javana; also the results of the different impulsion/kamma types occurring on different planes. and no registration after jhaana. mm, and repetition doesn't apply/count for vipaaka (bhavanga, tadaramana). Pardon the muddled ramble! Not sure about "so many parikammas and upacaras, but only one anuloma and gotrabhu"... here are flow charts representing the usual streaming of the two types of 'impulse' and the rest of the mind moments: sense door process: b-p-v-a-f-e-r-i-d-j-j-j-j-j-j-j-reg-reg-b mind door processes: kamavacara: b-v-a-m-j-j-j-j-j-j-j-reg-reg-b (& shorter) jhaana: b-v-a-m-pr-ac-cn-ch-jh-b (if jhaana samaapati, jh-jh-jh-...-jh) magga: b-v-a-m-pr-ac-cn-ch-pa-fr-fr-b splitting the 'keys' onto different rings here - sense door only- p, past, atita bhavanga f, adverting, panca dvara avajjana (ahetuka, kiriya) / manodhatu - first door e, eye-ear-nose-tongue-body consc. / vi~n~nanadhatu r, receiving, sampatichanna i, investigation, santirana d, determining, vothapana (abyakata) - second door both- b, bhavanga, lifecontinuum v, vibrating, bhavanga calana a, arrest, bhavanguppaccheda j, javana (kusala, akusala, phala, kiriya) - always either 5 or 7, if any? reg, registration, tadaramana (avyakata) / manodhatu manodvarika only - m, manodvara avajjana /manodhatu - mind door pr, preparation, parikamma ac, access/approximation, upacaara cn, conformity/adaptation, anuloma ch, change of lineage, gotrabhu jh, jhaana (kusala only) pa, path, magga (kusala only) fr, fruition, phala D: Wouldn't it make sense for repetition condition to be stronger for parikamma and upacara, and weaker for anuloma and gotrabhu? c: I don't know; maybe a clue in the sections of GCR 2.12 (99580) dealing with the different planes and objects? peace, connie ps. Thanks again, Alberto. #99613 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:20 am Subject: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') nichiconn Dear Scott, Yes, this and the one just before it are way cool! I don't think either one's on ATI yet so I'm going to add a couple more translations here and (haha - by way of apology for the length & not even a tiny translation attempt), the short commentarial sections to our sutta just below. peace, connie ============= Namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammaasambuddhassa A"nguttaranikaaye, Dasakanipaata-.tiikaa, 1. Pa.thamapa.n.naasaka.m, 1. Aanisa.msavaggo 2. Cetanaakara.niiyasutta.m Gradual Sayings: Thinking with intention Numerical Discourses: Lawfulness of Progress Upalavana Bhikkhuni: Intending 2.[a. ni. 11.2] "Siilavato, bhikkhave, siilasampannassa na cetanaaya kara.niiya.m -'avippa.tisaaro me uppajjatuu'ti. Dhammataa esaa, bhikkhave, ya.m siilavato siilasampannassa avippa.tisaaro uppajjati. GS: "Monks, for one who is virtuous, in full possession of virtue, there is no need for the purposeful thought: May freedom from remorse arise in me. This, monks, is in accordance with nature - that for one who is virtuous, in full possession of virtue, freedom from remorse arises. ND: For one who is virtuous and endowed with virtue, there is no need for an act of will: "May non-remorse arise in me!" It is a natural law, monks, that non-remorse will arise in one who is virtuous. UB: "Bhikkhus, someone who has clever virtues, need not intend, 'May non-remorse come to me.' It is the general rule for non-remorse to arise to a virtuous person. Avippa.tisaarissa, bhikkhave, na cetanaaya kara.niiya.m -'paamojja.m me uppajjatuu'ti. Dhammataa esaa, bhikkhave, ya.m avippa.tisaarissa paamojja.m jaayati. GS: Monks, for one who is free from remorse there is no need for the purposeful thought: May joy arise in me. This, monks, is in accordance with nature - that for one who is free from remorse joy arises. ND: For one who is free of remorse, there is no need for an act of will: "May gladness arise in me!" It is a natural law that gladness will arise in one who is free of remorse. UB: Someone who has no remorse, need not intend, 'May delight come to me.' It is the general rule for delight to arise to one without remorse. Pamuditassa, bhikkhave, na cetanaaya kara.niiya.m -'piiti me uppajjatuu'ti. Dhammataa esaa, bhikkhave, ya.m pamuditassa piiti uppajjati. GS: Monks, for one who is joyous there is no need for the purposeful thought: May rapture arise in me. This, monks, is in accordance with nature - that for one who is joyous rapture arises. ND: For one who is glad at heart, there is no need for an act of will: "May joy arise in me!" It is a natural law that joy will arise in one who is glad at heart. UB: Someone who is delighted need not intend, 'May joy come to me.' It is the general rule for joy to arise to a delighted one. Piitimanassa, bhikkhave, na cetanaaya kara.niiya.m -'kaayo me passambhatuu'ti. Dhammataa esaa, bhikkhave, ya.m piitimanassa kaayo passambhati. Passaddhakaayassa, bhikkhave, na cetanaaya kara.niiya.m -'sukha.m vediyaamii'ti. Dhammataa esaa, bhikkhave, ya.m passaddhakaayo sukha.m vediyati. GS: Monks, for one whose heart is enraptured there is no need for the purposeful thought: May my body be calmed. This, monks, is in accordance with nature - that for one whose heart is enraptured the body is calmed. ND: For one who is joyful, there is no need for an act of will: "May my body be serene!" It is a natural law that the body will be serene for one who is joyful. UB: Someone who is joyful need not intend, 'May my body be appeased'. It is the general rule for the joyful to experience appeasement of the body. Passaddhakaayassa, bhikkhave, na cetanaaya kara.niiya.m 'sukha.m vediyaamii'ti. Dhammataa esaa, bhikkhave, ya.m passaddhakaayo sukha.m vediyati. GS: Monks, for one whose body is calmed there is no need for the thought: I feel happiness. This, monks in in accordance with nature - that one whose body is calmed feels happiness. ND: For one of serene body, there is no need for an act of will: "May I feel happiness!" It is a natural law that one who is serene will feel happiness. UB: Someone with an appeased body need not intend, 'May I feel pleasant.'It is the general rule for one with an appeased body to feel pleasant. Sukhino, bhikkhave, na cetanaaya kara.niiya.m -'citta.m me samaadhiyatuu'ti. Dhammataa esaa, bhikkhave, ya.m sukhino citta.m samaadhiyati. GS: Monks, for one who is happy there is no need for the thought: My mind is concentrated. It follows that the happy man's mind is concentrated. ND: For one who is happy, there is no need of an act of will: "May my mind be concentrated!" It is a natural law for one who is happy that the mind will be concentrated. UB: A pleasant one, need not intend, 'May my mind be concentrated.' It is the general rule for the pleasant one to be concentrated. Samaahitassa, bhikkhave, na cetanaaya kara.niiya.m -'yathaabhuuta.m jaanaami passaamii'ti. Dhammataa esaa, bhikkhave, ya.m samaahito yathaabhuuta.m jaanaati passati. GS: Monks, for one who is concentrated there is no need for the thought: I know and see things as they really are. It follows naturally that one concentrated does so. ND: For one who is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will: "May I know and see things as they really are!" It is a natural law for one with a concentrated mind to know and see things as they really are. UB: Bhikkhus, someone with a concentrated mind need not intend, 'May I know and see it, as it really is. It is the general rule for the concentrated to know and see as it really is. Yathaabhuuta.m, bhikkhave, jaanato passato na cetanaaya kara.niiya.m -'nibbindaami virajjaamii'ti. Dhammataa esaa, bhikkhave, ya.m yathaabhuuta.m jaana.m passa.m nibbindati virajjati. GS: Monks, for one who knows and sees things as they really are there is no need for the thought: I feel revulsion; interest fades in me. It follows naturally that such an one feel revulsion and fading interest. ND: For one who knows and sees things as they really are, there is no need for an act of will: "May I experience revulsion and dispassion!" It is a natural law for one who knows and sees things as they really are to experience revulsion and dispassion. UB: Bhikkhus, someone who knows and sees, as it really is, need not intend, 'May I turn away and be disenchanted.' It is the general rule for one who knows and sees to turn away and be disenchanted. Nibbinnassa [nibbindassa (sii. ka.)], bhikkhave, virattassa na cetanaaya kara.niiya.m -'vimutti~naa.nadassana.m sacchikaromii'ti. Dhammataa esaa, bhikkhave, ya.m nibbinno [nibbindo (sii. ka.)] viratto vimutti~naa.nadassana.m sacchikaroti. GS: Monks, for one who feels revulsion and fading interest there is no need for the thought: I realize release by knowing and seeing. It follows naturally that he who feels revulsion and fading interest realizes release by knowing and seeing. ND: For one who experiences revulsion and dispassion, there is no need for an act of will: "May I realize the knowledge and vision of liberation!" It is a natural law for one who experiences revulsion and dispassion to realize the knowledge and vision of liberation. UB: Bhikkhus, the one who has turned away and become disenchanted need not intend, 'May I realize knowldge and vision of release'. It is the general rule for one who turned away and is disenchanted to realize knowledge and vision of release. "Iti kho, bhikkhave, nibbidaaviraago vimutti~naa.nadassanattho vimutti~naa.nadassanaanisa.mso; yathaabhuuta~naa.nadassana.m nibbidaaviraagattha.m nibbidaaviraagaanisa.msa.m; samaadhi yathaabhuuta~naa.nadassanattho yathaabhuuta~naa.nadassanaanisa.mso; sukha.m samaadhattha.m samaadhaanisa.msa.m; passaddhi sukhatthaa sukhaanisa.msaa; piiti passaddhatthaa passaddhaanisa.msaa; paamojja.m piitattha.m piitaanisa.msa.m; avippa.tisaaro paamojjattho paamojjaanisa.mso; kusalaani siilaani avippa.tisaaratthaani avippa.tisaaraanisa.msaani . Iti kho, bhikkhave, dhammaa dhamme abhisandenti, dhammaa dhamme paripuurenti apaaraa paara.m gamanaayaa"ti. Dutiya.m. GS: "So you see, monks, revulsion and fading of interest have release by knowing and seeing as object and profit; seeing and knowing (things) as they really are, have revulsion and fading interest as object and profit; concentration has knowing and seeing things as they really are as object and profit; happiness has concentration as object and profit; calm has happiness; rapture has calm; joy has rapture; freedom from remorse has joy; good conduct has freedom from remorse as its object, freedom from remorse as its profit. Thus, monks, one state just causes another state to swell, one state just causes fulfillment of another state, for the sake of going from the not-beyond to beyond." ND: Thus, monks, revulsion and dispassion have knowledge and vision of liberation as their benefit and reward ... (continued in conformity with the above, back to) ... virtuous ways of conduct have non-remorse as their benefit and reward. Thus, monks, the preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection for going from the near shore to the far shore. (X,2) UB: "Thus bhikkhus turning away and disenchantment is for knowledge and vision of release and its benefits. Knowledge and vision of seeing things as they really are, is for turning away and disenchantment and its benefits. Concentration is for knowledge and vision of seeing things as they really are, and their benefits. Pleasantness is for concentration and its benefits. Tranquility is for pleasantness and its benefits. Joy is for tranquility and its benefits. Delight is for joy and its benefits. Non-remorse is for delight and its benefits. Clever virtues are for non-remorse and its benefits. Thus bhikkhus, thoughts overflow from thoughts and get completed by thoughts, while they flow up and down." Cy: A.t.thakaadinipaata-a.t.thakathaa 2. Cetanaakara.niiyasuttava.n.nanaa 2. Dutiye nti na cetetvaa kappetvaa pakappetvaa kaatabba.m. ti dhammasabhaavo eso kaara.naniyamo aya.m. ti pavattenti. ti paripu.n.na.m karonti. ti orimatiirabhuutaa tebhuumakava.t.taa nibbaanapaara.m gamanatthaaya. SubCy: A.t.thakaadinipaata-.tiikaa 2-5. Cetanaakara.niiyasuttaadiva.n.nanaa 2-5. Dutiye sa.msaaramahoghassa paratiirabhaavato yo na.m adhigacchati, ta.m paareti gametiiti , nibbaana.m. Tabbiduurataaya natthi ettha paaranti , sa.msaaro. Tenaaha ""tiaadi. Tatiyaadiisu natthi vattabba.m. Cetanaakara.niiyasuttaadiva.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. #99614 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:21 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Sarah, Thanks for engaging on the 'intellectual understanding' subthread. D:...In Vibh. (768) cintamayapaa comes first and defined as "...ability to apprehend states [that] is acquired without hearing from others" (Book of Analysis, p. 425). S: There are different kinds and levels of suta- and cintamayapa~n~naa as I understand and these terms were, I believe, commonly used at the time. --> They may well have been commonly used, but I don't see any evidence of that. They seem rare in tipitaka, and I can't find any textual support for Alex proposition (and your concurrence): "The more proper the study (suttamaya panna) is the more material it gives for (cittamayapanna) and conditions Bhavanamayapanna," with the implication that bhavanamayapaa arises from cintamayapaa after intellectualized parsing of sutamayapamayapaa. S: As far as satipatthana or vipassana are concerned, only a Buddha doesn't need to hear from others. So we need to consider if it's referring to the Bodhisatta/Buddha. --> I know that's a common view, but is it ditthi? I think it is clear that the texts say there is no enlightenment with the teachings, but there is an awful lot of satipatthana short of enlightenment. *** D: This is very different from "intellectual understanding of what is heard from others." Some teachers (e.g., Goenka) talk about a progression from sutamayapaa to cintamayapaa to bhavanamayapa a, but I don't see it in the texts. Are they just making it up? S: This is correct. Try U.P. under 'sutamayapanna' or a text such as Psm. Perhaps Connie can help. I've asked KS the same question about the order given in texts such as AN. --> Yes, I see in the U.P. that Kel, Sukin, and Nina agree with Goenka, you, and Alex. That's fine, as far as it goes. Jon cites texts D 33 and VismXIV (to go with Vibh 768) that give a different story. As with pariyatti, the question is should we go with Sarah, Goenka, and Nina, or with Buddha, Buddhagosa, and Sariputta? *** D: Vism (XIV, 14): "Understanding acquired without hearing from others is that consisting in what is reasoned [cintamayapaa] because it is deduced by one's own reasoning." S: For the Buddha. --> I never see that disclaimer in the texts. Metta, Dan #99615 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:29 am Subject: Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika onco111 Hi Connie, C: Not sure about "so many parikammas and upacaras, but only one anuloma and gotrabhu"... here are flow charts representing the usual streaming of the two types of 'impulse' and the rest of the mind moments: > > sense door process: > b-p-v-a-f-e-r-i-d-j-j-j-j-j-j-j-reg-reg-b > > mind door processes: > kamavacara: b-v-a-m-j-j-j-j-j-j-j-reg-reg-b (& shorter) > jhaana: b-v-a-m-pr-ac-cn-ch-jh-b (if jhaana samaapati, jh-jh-jh-...-jh) > magga: b-v-a-m-pr-ac-cn-ch-pa-fr-fr-b > --> I'm not sure either. Vism descriptions of preparatory and access concentrations are elongated. And CMA has anuloma and gotrabhu as single moments. I don't know what to make of the "usual streaming" lists. -Dan #99616 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] attaining N8P, perfecting sammaditthi & sila = sotapanna. Not other way around. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 26-jul-2009, om 2:29 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > > > I think that it is better to say that > > until one's right view has not been perfected ditthisampanna - one > > is not yet a sotapanna. (Note: only arhats have perfect panna) > > > > Or more precisely: > > until one has not been attained N8P, and perfected sila, - one is > > not yet a sotapanna. > ------- > N: It depends on the way how you view it. We can also say: at the > moment of the magga-citta of the sotaapanna the bases for heavy > akusala kamma are eradicated, not before. Wrong view is completely > eradicated, not before. > Nina. Dear Nina, Let us all agree that it is important to keep sila and put utmost effort not to break the precepts. With metta, Alex #99617 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristic of thinking kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ---------- <. . .> S: > Again, I think we are mostly in snync here.... ---------- Yes, but is "mostly" good enough? We have been discussing two questions: "Did the Buddha ever teach something other than satipatthana?" and, "Did the Buddha ever take part in ordinary, run of the mill, conversations?" Before this discussion, my answer to both questions would have been no. I accept, however, that the correct answer is yes. It's the "there has to be an act of dana" debacle all over again; I'll catch on eventually. Meanwhile: courage, patience and good cheer. :-) Ken H #99618 From: "connie" Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:45 pm Subject: Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika nichiconn Hi again, Dan. Dan: Vism descriptions of preparatory and access concentrations are elongated. And CMA has anuloma and gotrabhu as single moments. I don't know what to make of the "usual streaming" lists. c: Nothing really to add, but the 'variations on a stream' are given in CMA ch4. Just looking at -- CMA Table 4.4: The Absorption Javana Process Initial attainment of jhaana Avrg: B { V A M Pr Ac Cn Ch Jh }B B B Keen: B { V A M Ac Cn Ch Jh } B B B B Attainment of path and fruit Avrg: B { V A M Pr Ac Cn Ch Pa Fr Fr } B Keen: B { V A M Ac Cn Ch Pa Fr Fr Fr } B KEY: Avrg = one of average faculties; keen = one of keen faculties; Pr = preparation; Ac = access; Cn = conformity; Ch = Change of lineage; Jh = jhaana; Pa = path; Fr = fruition; rest as in Tables 4.2 and 4.3 -- the Average/Keen thing where the one 'proximate jhaana citta' drops out reminds me of vitakka/vicaara; and noting 4.4's title made me smile... jhaana javana it is then! - but preliminary is just preliminary, i guess: Connected Discourses p.478 n571 Spk: Ahi.msaaya, "in harmlessness," means "in compassion and in the preliminary stage of compassion" (cut) CD V n136 Spk says that satipa.t.thaana is treated as insight of the preliminary stage. peace, connie #99619 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Dan, --- On Tue, 28/7/09, Dan D. wrote: -->D: I think pariyatti IS a matter of memorizing lists and numbers, or at least WAS in Buddha's day. Today, the written word takes the place of the memorized word. ..... S: However, we need to know what was meant by 'memorization' in the texts. Was it what is meant by the word as we use it? Let me quote from an old post in which I included reference to a couple of the AN suttas I was thinking of: ***** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/57200 >Kom: Based on the scripture, as well as another text (which are parts of the > Pali Studying textbooks), it impressed me that memorization (word by > word) of the Buddha's teachings were parts of the monk's life as well as > some layperson's life. I believe there is a sutra that mentioned that > the teachings will fade if it is not memorized, recited, well pondered, > and penetrated. .... S: I'd like to look a little more at what is meant in the texts by `memorization' in the context here of the disappearance or fading of the teachings. <...> In, AN, 5s `The Confounding of Saddhamma (b) (PTS), we read about the 5 things which lead to the disappearance of the Teachings: "Herein, monks, the monks master not Dhamma.... They teach not others Dhamma in detail.... They make not others speak it in detail... They make no repetition of it in detail.... The monks do not in their hearts turn over and ponder upon Dhamma, they review it not in their minds....." ..... In AN,4s, 186 `Approach' (Ummagga), we read about the meaning of what this `mastery' refers to. It refers to being 'widely learned' and 'knowing Dhamma by heart'. This sounds like memorization of the texts, but what it says is: "...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla. Now if a monk *UNDERSTANDS THE MEANING* and (text of) dhamma, - *EVEN IF IT BE BUT A STANZA OF FOUR LINES*, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may well be called `one *WIDELY LEARNED*, *WHO KNOWS DHAMMA BY HEART*" [S: Excuse all the caps for emphasis:)) ***** S: As Kom rightly pointed out, in the Buddha's time, the bhikkhus did orally memorize and recite the teachings, but I believe it is the lack of understanding of the meaning of the Dhamma as indicated in this sutta, along with not living `in accordance with Dhamma'(i.e not following of the 8fold Path) that leads to the disappearance of the Teachings. ***** Metta Sarah ======== #99620 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Dan (& Alex), --- On Tue, 28/7/09, Dan D. wrote: --> They may well have been commonly used, but I don't see any evidence of that. They seem rare in tipitaka, and I can't find any textual support for Alex proposition (and your concurrence) : "The more proper the study (suttamaya panna) is the more material it gives for (cittamayapanna) and conditions Bhavanamayapanna, " with the implication that bhavanamayapaññ a arises from cintamayapañña after intellectualized parsing of sutamayapamayapaññ a. ..... >>S: As far as satipatthana or vipassana are concerned, only a Buddha doesn't need to hear from others. So we need to consider if it's referring to the Bodhisatta/Buddha. -->D: I know that's a common view, but is it ditthi? I think it is clear that the texts say there is no enlightenment with the teachings, but there is an awful lot of satipatthana short of enlightenment. .... S: Nina helpfully added more from the Tiika to the passage we were discussing: > >Vism (XIV, 14): "Understanding acquired without hearing from > others is that consisting in what is reasonaed [cintamayapaññ a] > because it is deduced by one's own reasoning." > ... > S: For the Buddha. ------- N: More about this in the Tiika to Vis. Ch XIV, 14. < As to the words, he acquires without hearing from someone else, this means that he acquires only by his own reasoning, without hearing another’s words of instruction. The words, “this is called”, mean, this is called understanding consisting of reasoning. But this arises only in distinguished bodhisattas. And herein, understanding in comformity with truth only arises in two kinds of Bodhisattas in their last existence *. The remaining understanding arises in all those with great understanding who have fulfilled the perfections. As to the words, he acquires by hearing it from another, this means: all that has been acquired by seeing spheres of work being done or having done by someone else, or by hearing someone else’s words, or by learning under a teacher, all this should be understood as acquired by hearing from another. > ---------- footnote: In the Sammåsambuddhas and in the Solitary Buddhas, Pacceka Buddhas. .... Metta Sarah ======= #99621 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. sarahprocter... Hi Dan, --- On Sun, 26/7/09, Dan D. wrote: >>S: [2nd version] I agree with you about the power and conditioning effect of the ekaggata (concentration) accompanying jhana cittas on subsequent cittas (and associated cetasikas). I think that natural decisive support condition particularly, but also object predominance, repetition and other conditions must be important in this. D:--> Yes, other conditions and other cetasikas too. Howard's question was specifically about ekaggata. I found it interesting that repetition condition is only good for helping launch the first jhana citta before petering out (GCR, p. 49), but it is pakatuupanissayo paccaya rather than repetition condition that kicks in for maintenance. ... S: Ekaggata and the other factors accumulating by natural decisive support condition (pakatuupanissaya paccaya). Thx to Alberto for the good quote on that and to Connie for the one on repetition condition (asevana paccaya). As you've since noted, asevana paccaya conditions all the subsequent cittas in the javana process, so they both "kick in for maintenance". I liked this quote: "The arising of faultlessand faulty states at any time or in any existence is due to natural strong-dependence condition but the increase in the powers of these states is due to repetition condition...." As you have also now pointed out,jhaana condition doesn't just have a special relationship to jhaana - they are not to be confused. Jhaana paccaya is also relevant to almost every citta except the sense experiencing cittas as I recall, including akusala cittas. Thanks for raising good issues as usual. Metta Sarah ======== #99622 From: "Chew" Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:47 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (36) chewsadhu Dear all, Ghosts, if define as Hungry Ghosts (Peta), always are hungry and thirsty. For what I know, Peta has no power, and Peta is lower than Human being. Ghosts, sometimes also called Spirits, if define as Earth-bound Deva, who live in the forest, trees, etc. These kind of Deva have some powers, they are not afraid of human beings, and able to frighten human beings. Probably, the Monk-Ghost that described by Han, belongs to the later type. "both for you and for me it will not be for long!" If "you" and "me" are defined as naama-ruupa, then its only last for one thought-moment. If "you" and "me" are defined as beings in Samsara, then only for Arahants will not be for long. Sometimes, when thinking of one will not be for long, there is a possibility to become the anihilism view (uccheda-dit.t.hi). Beings who are accompanied by atta-dit.t.hi, having inclinations to perform evil actions, have to wander through the ceaseless round of rebirths. Those who have the Dhamma knowledge and yet still having inclinations to perform evil actions, it shows the nature of dit.t.haasava, dit.t.hogha, dit.t.hiyoga, dit.t.hupaadaana.m, dit.t.haanusaya, dit.t.hisa.myojana.m. This kind of view can be temporary removed by Vipassana-sammaditthi, and completely removed by Sotapatti-Magga-sammaditthi. Interesting resource @ The Manual of Right Views by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw, Aggamahapandita, .Litt. http://www.dhammaweb.net/html/view.php?id=4 With respect, Chew #99623 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Sarah, Interesting quote on 'memorizing.' It reiterates my point very nicely. Let me re-quote it but with a different set of ALL CAPS: "...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla. Now if a monk understands the meaning AND TEXT OF dhamma, - even if it be but a stanza of four lines, - AND BE SET ON LIVING in accordance with Dhamma, he may well be called `one *WIDELY LEARNED*, *WHO KNOWS DHAMMA BY HEART*" i.e., knowing just a snippet of words by heart but being set on living in accordance of Dhamma makes for "widely learned." Not necessary to have intellectual understanding of sets of terms and details about the names and numbers of processes and so on. Pariyatti refers to the actual text of the Dhamma, whether it is memorized (old days) or written in books (later days). -Dan #99624 From: "Dan D." Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Sarah, More on cintamayapanya... N: More about this in the Tiika to Vis. Ch XIV, 14. So, cintamayapanya is the province of distinguished Bodhisattas. Why, then, would we want to sell it as "intellectual understanding of Dhamma that is heard from others"? Much less as a necessary precondition for any level of bhavanmayapanya. Sarah, again, as with pariyatti, I'll stick with the texts rather than twisting and squeezing them into an apparently artificial "intellectual understanding -> direct understanding" interpretation. -Dan #99625 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Dan, --- On Tue, 28/7/09, Dan D. wrote: >Interesting quote on 'memorizing. ... S: Removing the caps and looking at the Pali, we get: .... ''Bahuu kho, bhikkhu, mayaa dhammaa desitaa – sutta.m, geyya.m, veyyaakara.na.m, gaathaa, udaana.m, itivuttaka.m, jaataka.m, abbhutadhamma.m, vedalla.m. Catuppadaaya cepi, bhikkhu, gaathaaya atthama~n~naaya dhammama~n~naaya dhammaanudhammappa.tipanno hoti bahussuto dhammadharoti ala.m vacanaayaa' 'ti. "...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na, Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla. Now if a monk understands the meaning (and text) of dhamma, - even if it be but a stanza of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may well be called 'one widely learned, who knows dhamma by heart' ". .... S: Note: there is no Pali word above for 'text', which is why I'd not put it in Caps! ... D:> i.e., knowing just a snippet of words by heart but being set on living in accordance of Dhamma makes for "widely learned." Not necessary to have intellectual understanding of sets of terms and details about the names and numbers of processes and so on. ... S: Yes, I agree, However, we don't have Sariputta's accumulations and will agree, I'm sure, that we need to hear and consider a lot more than "a snippet of words" in oreder to become enlightened. ... >Pariyatti refers to the actual text of the Dhamma, whether it is memorized (old days) or written in books (later days). ... S: It refers to a level of understanding based on the Buddha's word that is not yet patipatti, let alone pativedha. The text in the library which is not read or not understood at any level, even if one has read the entire Abhidhamma in Pali, is not pariyatti. Metta Sarah ======= #99626 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Dan, --- On Tue, 28/7/09, Dan D. wrote: >More on cintamayapanya. .. .... >....the Tiika to Vis. Ch XIV, 14. D:>So, cintamayapanya is the province of distinguished Bodhisattas. .... S: Not at all. Cintamayapanna *without* sutamayapanna first (*he acquires without hearing from someone else*) is the province of Bodhisattas. Anytime there is wise consideration or reflection about dhammas, there is cintamayapanna. ... >D:> Why, then, would we want to sell it as "intellectual understanding of Dhamma that is heard from others"? Much less as a necessary precondition for any level of bhavanmayapanya. Sarah, again, as with pariyatti, I'll stick with the texts rather than twisting and squeezing them into an apparently artificial "intellectual understanding -> direct understanding" interpretation. .... S: Perhaps this quote (I've given before) may help combine both threads: From Sammohavinodanii 1008,(translated as 'Dispeller of Delusion', comy to the Vibhanga, PTS, Classification of the Structure of Conditions): "After stating it in many divisions For profitable, unprofitable and indeterminate states, Again, however, by the Best of Speakers The structure of conditions is stated in single manner only By way of decisive support [condition] In regard to result of the profitable and unprofitable, For the purpose of producing the variety Of knowledge about "which states are condition for which", And [so] since the variety of knowledge Regarding that will never come about in those in whom Is found lacking the Order [of Succession] Consisting of Competency(pariyatti)-Learning (savanaa)-Reflection(cintana)-Practice(pa.tipatti) [Therefore] in accordance with the Order Consisting of Competency-Learning-Reflection-Practice The wise act always in regard thereto For there is nothing other than that which more needs to be done." Metta Sarah ======== #99627 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:51 pm Subject: Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika sprlrt Hi Dan, > GCR (pp. 65-66), viz. "It is due to jhana condition that a faultless or faulty action in thought, word or deed can be completely performed from the beginning right through to the end." A single isolated paccaya can't do anything, and I'm pretty sure U Narada would agree with this, here action refers to kamma, another condition (cetana cetasika, intention); kamma is either kusala or akusala (faultless or faulty), i.e. with hetu(s), roots, another paccaya; kusala or akusala cittas accumulate because they arise and fall seven times in succession (anantara, samanatara and asevana paccaya); by accumulating, dhammas become habitual (or natural), pakatpanissaya paccaya, to mention just a few. Alberto #99628 From: han tun Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:31 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (36) hantun1 Dear Chew (Nina), >Chew: "both for you and for me it will not be for long!" If "you" and "me" are defined as naama-ruupa, then its only last for one thought-moment. If "you" and "me" are defined as beings in Samsara, then only for Arahants will not be for long. -------------------- Han: (1) What I wrote to Nina as regards our death is not kha.nika-mara.na, which is in line with your first definition of death: [If "you" and "me" are defined as naama-ruupa, then its only last for one thought-moment.] (2) What I wrote to Nina as regards our death is not samuccheda-mara.na, which is in line with your second definition of death: [If "you" and "me" are defined as beings in Samsara, then only for Arahants will not be for long.] (3) What I wrote to Nina as regards our death is the interruption of the life faculty included within the limits of a single becoming (tattha mara.nanti eka-bhava pariyaapannassa jiivitidriyassa upacchedo) as *death* is defined for Mindfulness of Death in Visuddhimagga VIII, 1. The two deaths you have mentioned are not intended in my note to Nina. Yours truly, Han #99629 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nilovg Dear Sarah, very good reminder: The wise act always in regard thereto For there is nothing other than that which more needs to be done." Nina. Op 28-jul-2009, om 7:44 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > And [so] since the variety of knowledge > Regarding that will never come about in those in whom > Is found lacking the Order [of Succession] > Consisting of Competency(pariyatti)-Learning > (savanaa)-Reflection(cintana)-Practice(pa.tipatti) > [Therefore] in accordance with the Order > Consisting of Competency-Learning-Reflection-Practice > The wise act always in regard thereto > For there is nothing other than that which more needs to be done." #99630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nilovg Dear Dan, Op 27-jul-2009, om 19:21 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > D: Vism (XIV, 14): "Understanding acquired without hearing from > others is that consisting in what is reasoned [cintamayapaa] > because it is deduced by one's own reasoning." > > S: For the Buddha. > > --> I never see that disclaimer in the texts. ------ N: Yes, compare the Tiika to this I quoted. Nina. #99631 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:01 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 5, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, You asked me how we can realize the conditions for nma and rpa through being aware of them, and whether that is different from thinking about conditions. There are different degrees of understanding conditions. We can have theoretical understanding of the fact that eyesense is a condition for seeing. Without eyesense there cannot be seeing. Seeing sees visible object or colour. Visible object is a condition for seeing by being its object. Seeing is vipka-citta, it is produced by kamma. Kamma-condition is another type of condition. There are different types of conditions for the realities which arise. Theoretical understanding of conditions is not the same as pa which directly knows conditions for the nma and rpa which appear. This is a stage of insight which cannot arise before the beginning stage of insight which is the stage that pa clearly distinguishes the difference between the characteristic of nma and the characteristic of rpa. Seeing is a reality which experiences visible object, it is not self but nma. There is no need to think about this. Can the characteristic of seeing not be known when it appears? Seeing is different from visible object. Visible object is rpa, it does not know anything. Hearing is a reality which experiences sound. It is different from sound which is rpa, a reality which does not know anything. Through awareness of nma and rpa which appear one at a time pa can come to realize that nma is different from rpa. When the first stage of insight arises there is no idea of a whole, there are only different elements appearing one at a time. There is no idea of self who realizes nma as nma and rpa as rpa, but it is pa which realizes this. How could pa directly know conditions for nma and rpa when the difference between these realities has not been discerned yet? This would be impossible. Do seeing and visible object not seem to appear at the same time? Do hearing and sound not seem to appear at the same time? Do seeing and hearing not seem to appear at the same time? Is there an idea of the whole body? Dont we join all realities together into a whole? Is there not the whole of the world, the whole of a being, the whole of our personality? Is there an idea of self who is aware? We still have to study, to be aware of different realities, to discern their different characteristics. We have to learn such a great deal before the first stage of insight can arise. We dont even know whether it can arise during this life, that depends on understanding which has been accumulated, also in past lives. ***** Nina. #99632 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:14 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (26-27), sutta 26 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 26. Walshe DN 33.1.11(26) 'Four powers: *1069 energy, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom. (Cattaari balaani - viiriyabala.m, satibala.m, samaadhibala.m, pa~n~naabala.m.) (Omitting 'faith' as the first of this group, normally of five.) ------- N: Energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are faculties, indriyas, and when they have been developed they become powers, balas. The powers are unshakable by their opposites. Saddhaa, confidence in kusala, is also a power, but this is omitted here since this section about the Fours deals with four dhammas. The Co states that they are powers in the sense of support (upaathambana) and in the sense of being unshakable (akampiya). They are unshakable by their opposites such as indolence and so on. N: Indolence is the opposite of energy, forgetfulness is the opposite of sati, restlessness the opposite of samaadhi and ignorance the opposite of pa~n~naa. The co states that all of them refer to samatha, vipassanaa and magga, and that they can be mundane or supramundane. N: In the case of magga, lokuttara magga-citta, they accompany lokuttara citta and they are also lokuttara. The subco states that the powers, because of their firm nature, are a support for the accompanying dhammas and that they are absolutely unshakable. In addition it mentions as powers shame and fear of blame (hiri and ottappa). These are unshakable because of the great power of kusala dhammas, and the weak nature of akusala dhammas. It is said with reference to samatha, vipassanaa and magga because they are among the factors leading to enlightenment (bodhipakkhia dhammas). --------- N: Each sobhana citta is accompanied by hiri and ottappa and each akusala citta is accompanied by ahirika (shamelessness) and anotappa (recklessness). As we read, akusala dhammas are weak and kusala dhammas are powerful by nature. It is energy which is kusala and has been developed so that it has become a power, that overcomes indolence. There is no self who could make an effort to overcome indolence. The faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom should be developed so that they become powers. They are factors leading to enlightenment. The text encourages to have more confidence in the power of kusala dhammas and this confidence is a condition for their development. ----------- Co Pali: Balaaniiti upatthambhana.t.thena akampiya.t.thena ca balaani. Tesa.m pa.tipakkhehi kosajjaadiihi akampaniyataa veditabbaa. Sabbaanipi samathavipassanaamaggavasena lokiyalokuttaraaneva kathitaani. ------ Nina. #99633 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:42 am Subject: e-card from Sweden szmicio hi guys what is the path. the understanding that leads to detachment or detachment that leads to understanding? Should i first stop clinging to things to see realities as they are? Should i live in detachment or provide special conditions in order to understand realities? There is so much attachment. What can be done with this? My best wishes Lukas #99634 From: "Scott" Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:10 am Subject: Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') scottduncan2 Dear connie, Nina, Alberto, Sarah, Scott: Please check and correct the attempt at translation below: Cy: A.t.thakaadinipaata-a.t.thakathaa 2. Cetanaakara.niiyasuttava.n.nanaa 2. Dutiye nti na cetetvaa kappetvaa pakappetvaa kaatabba.m. ti dhammasabhaavo eso kaara.naniyamo aya.m... Scott: "2. Secondly, regarding 'no need for purposive thought:' there is no need for intending to carry out; no need to prepare or construct an opinion; no need to arrange or to plan, this cannot be done. Regarding 'in accordance with nature:' Seeking and wishing and desiring to perform an action is limited by the natural order of phenomena and conditions, just this..." Sincerely, Scott. #99635 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. nilovg Dear Ken H, I thought of you when giving Lodewijk his pre-breakfast reading. A quote from my 'Intro to the Buddhist Scriptures'. Op 28-jul-2009, om 0:26 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Yes, but is "mostly" good enough? We have been discussing two > questions: "Did the Buddha ever teach something other than > satipatthana?" and, "Did the Buddha ever take part in ordinary, run of > the mill, conversations?" > > Before this discussion, my answer to both questions would have been > no. > I accept, however, that the correct answer is yes. > > ----------------- N: Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from Sweden nilovg Dear Lukas, I am glad to see your e-card. Op 28-jul-2009, om 12:42 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > what is the path. the understanding that leads to detachment or > detachment that leads to understanding? ------- N: The idea of self is so deeply rooted, we find ourselves the centre of the world. Through understanding of naama and ruupa we find out that what we take for self are only fleeting elements that have no importance at all. Less clinging to ourselves can certainly help to cope with problems in life. Only understanding is the way leading to less clinging. ------- > > L: Should i first stop clinging to things to see realities as they > are? ------- N: That is the other way round. Self is trying again to stop clinging, it leads to nowhere. ---------- > > L: Should i live in detachment or provide special conditions in > order to understand realities? -------- N: Lobha is a lifelong companion, it follows us everywhere. Better see it as it is when it appears. Understanding, understanding is the answer. ------- > > L: There is so much attachment. What can be done with this? ------- N: Only the anaagaami has eradicated clinging to sense objects. First the clinging to self has to be eradicated. Even the sotaapanna clings to sense objects, but he has no more conditions for heavy akusala kamma. So, the only way is beginning now to have more understanding of whatever reality appears through one of the six doorways, one at a time. No use to do something else first or create conditions, because that is motivated by lobha. Lobha has many objects, it will always find an object and it plays us tricks. Best wishes, I hope you will be happier soon, Nina. #99637 From: "szmicio" Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:01 pm Subject: Re: e-card from Sweden szmicio Dear Nina, Thank you. Your answer helped me very much. My best wishes Lukas > Dear Lukas, > I am glad to see your e-card. > Op 28-jul-2009, om 12:42 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > > > what is the path. the understanding that leads to detachment or > > detachment that leads to understanding? > ------- > N: The idea of self is so deeply rooted, we find ourselves the centre > of the world. Through understanding of naama and ruupa we find out > that what we take for self are only fleeting elements that have no > importance at all. Less clinging to ourselves can certainly help to > cope with problems in life. Only understanding is the way leading to > less clinging. > ------- > > > > L: Should i first stop clinging to things to see realities as they > > are? > ------- > N: That is the other way round. Self is trying again to stop > clinging, it leads to nowhere. > ---------- > > > > L: Should i live in detachment or provide special conditions in > > order to understand realities? > -------- > N: Lobha is a lifelong companion, it follows us everywhere. Better > see it as it is when it appears. Understanding, understanding is the > answer. > ------- > > > > L: There is so much attachment. What can be done with this? > ------- > N: Only the anaagaami has eradicated clinging to sense objects. First > the clinging to self has to be eradicated. Even the sotaapanna clings > to sense objects, but he has no more conditions for heavy akusala > kamma. So, the only way is beginning now to have more understanding > of whatever reality appears through one of the six doorways, one at a > time. No use to do something else first or create conditions, because > that is motivated by lobha. Lobha has many objects, it will always > find an object and it plays us tricks. > Best wishes, I hope you will be happier soon, > > Nina. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > #99638 From: "Chew" Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:43 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (36) chewsadhu Dear Han, Thanks for the clarification. I've missed out the point that you mentioned. Thanks for pointing to the Visuddhimagga Chapter VIII. Mindfulness of Death. I heard the Visuddhimagga talks by Sayadaw U Silananda, below are some points that Sayadaw mentioned in his talks. (para.1) 'dead metal' --> iron is dead. (para.2) "the exhaustion of merit" --> also mean exhaustion of force of kamma. (para.7) "When some exercise it merely in this way" --> "this way" e.g. death will take place, death will come, I'will die one day, etc. (para.7) "..., their hindrances get suppressed, their mindfulness becomes established with death as its object, and the meditation subject reaches access." --> those are gifted people. (para.8) "(2) as the ruin of success" --> it is not "ruin of success", it is as the success and failure. (para.8) "(4) as to sharing the body with many" --> here "many" is sharing with worms, germs, etc. (para.19) "Vaasudeva, Baladeva, Bhiimasena, Yuddhi.t.thila, Caan.ura...." ---> it is taken from Hindu books, some kind of relation betweeen Hindu stories and Buddhist stories. Some Hindu stories are told as Buddhist stories in the Jataka. The story of these five originally came from Hindu sources. (para.35) "One who lives long lives a hundred years, more or less." --> it is not "more or less", it should be "ONe who lives long lives a hundred years, or a little more." Sayadaw also said, it is amazing: 1. thinking of death makes you less afraid of death; 2. also reduces a very great degree of pride, not attached to anything; 3. a very great weapon to fight anger; 4. very calm when death comes. [to be continued] May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #99639 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (36) nilovg Dear Chew, I like your reflections on death. It is a good addition to Han's reflections, who wrote quite a series about death some time ago. I would like to revisit it. Actually, my intention was like Han's: we will not be for long in this human lifespan. Like a reminder: now we have an opportunity to listen to Dhamma, but who knows what the next life will be. So we should not waste our time now. Nina. Op 28-jul-2009, om 17:43 heeft Chew het volgende geschreven: > Sayadaw also said, it is amazing: 1. thinking of death makes you > less afraid of death; 2. also reduces a very great degree of pride, > not attached to anything; 3. a very great weapon to fight anger; 4. > very calm when death comes. #99640 From: "connie" Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:08 pm Subject: Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') nichiconn Dear Scott, 2. Cetanaakara.niiyasuttava.n.nanaa GS: Thinking with intention (as opposed to?) ND: Lawfulness of Progress <-- like! UB: Intending (what is 'in tent'? c: cetanaa/heart's willingway(ward)ness business/occupation (ward) kamma kara.niiya ~ walkway, workmode kamma sutta (to be heard/suta - vipaaka :) kamma (learnt, ackomplished. herded va.n.nanaa/phrases praising - complimentary reading (like that) beginning from Namo (tassa... might say that prescribes what is described in this 2. Dutiye second or following sutta, nti na cetetvaa kappetvaa pakappetvaa kaatabba.m. ti dhammasabhaavo eso kaara.naniyamo aya.m... Scott: "2. Secondly, regarding 'no need for purposive thought:' there is no need for intending to carry out; no need to prepare or construct an opinion; no need to arrange or to plan, this cannot be done. Regarding 'in accordance with nature:' Seeking and wishing and desiring to perform an action is limited by the natural order of phenomena and conditions, just this..." Sincerely, Scott. Yeah, like that ... but i'm rushed now ...they're admitting the girl & i've just got off work to go meet the new one, so... sending as is. connie #99643 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:08 pm Subject: Satipatthana - panna or an aspect of samma-samadhi? truth_aerator Hello Nina, Sarah, Jon, Scott and all interested, Satipatthana promises full awakening or Anagamiship in as little as 7 days and the longest time it gives seems to be 7 years. Many people had meditation retreats far longer than 7 days and some people have been trying to "see realities as they are" for longer than 7 years and yet the results have been very minimum, if any at all. What have may have been overlooked? Whenever Buddhism (or any religion) became more widespread and fashionable, there is an unfortunate tendency to make it more acceptable, easier, more accommodating to the people, more "relevant" to the modern times and the preferences that people may have. Buddh-ism is no exception. Running into the forest seems to be such a let down for most that some people like to make the teaching suit them rather than the other way around, sucking it up and doing the hard work. Some authors and schools teach that Awakening is nothing more than passive submission to the way things appear to be (or read in a book) rather than "as they truly are", seen ONLY after Samadhi. Upanisa Sutta. Or that unconditioned is merely easy accessible momentary mindfulness-in-daily life where everything, everything (surfing, sight seeing, travel, strip clubs) is acceptable (especially when done 'mindfully'). Or that ascetism is merely a mental seclusion that one may have as one indulges in sensuality. People cheerfully point out certain passages showing how hard work is not needed and avoid seeing the hard part. In some circles, and over time, more and more of the Buddha's teaching become merely pop-psychology (like CBT) which is easily acceptable, welcomed by the masses, and doesn't require hard work or sacrifice. Doing hard work at letting go off one's attachment is seen as "Its just the Ego, the Self doing" while indulging in sense-pleasures is seen as alright. In one of the suttas, one of the conditions of downfall of Buddha's teaching is lack of respect for Samadhi, the only thing that can lead to yathabhutananadassana (Upanisa Sutta). It has turned in some form of "opium for the people" where anything goes, anything, just do it mindfully and be mindful of nama-rupa arising. No need to destroy any kind of experience. 1) Satipatthana is not panna khanda, sati (as in satipatthana) belongs to the samadhi-khanda (viriya, sati, samadhi) not panna-khanda . MN44 Sati will not arise unless there are causes for it to arise, and one of the causes is to actually practice it. Like any other skill (such as playing a sport or riding a bike), it is improved with practice. Skill just doesn't arise by "waiting for conditions to fall out of blue sky". Same with mindfulness and the skill in it. It doesn't just arise by itself. One has to exert appropriate right effort with right view (of counteracting unwholesome states and feeding the wholesome) and this has to be done as part of samadhi-khanda. 2) Sati & Upekkha gets fully purified in 4th Jhana. MN111 3) Before each satipatthana there is an instruction of: "having removed covetenous & displeasure for the world. " vineyya loke abhijjhadomanassam, 4) In AN 5.51 it says that wisdom cannot grow when 5 hindrances are present and wisdom is required for any kind of progress on the path 5) And how does one remove hindrances that hinder wisdom? In MN68 it is said that Jhana (or at least state immediately prior to that) does that! Furthermore in many suttas it states that domanassa ceases in or prior to 4th Jhana. No wonder that sati gets purified in Jhana, especially in 4th one. Note: Sati is a factor present in all jhanas and first 3 aruppas. 6) Satipatthana sutta also has a series of instructions about contemplating external feelings & mind [of others?] This if read literally would mean a possession of clairvoyance, gained from 4th Jhana. 7) The vipassana done on the body in DN#2 is described to happen during or AFTER 4th Jhana. Only when sati goes with samadhi and other factors of N8P can this be the only way. In fact the sati could be the sati present in the Jhanas. No wonder that the Buddha has said in MN36 that Jhana is the path to awakening. Not satipatthana, not vipassana. Buddha achieved awakening from the 4th Jhana and after He has perfected all 9 levels of samadhi. The Buddha passed into Parinibbana FROM 4th Jhana and after going through 9 jhanas in front and reverse order just as he did prior to his Arhatship (AN 9.41) This is quite significant as even during his last moments, after saying ""Strive with earnestness!"" he was giving an important lesson at how one can or should achieve Nibbana (Arhatship) and final Nibbana. Moreover in the last suttas of AN book of 11s the Buddha states that one *MUST* achieve 4 jhanas + atleast first 3 immaterial states + 4 brahmaviharas to fully realize&understand greed (raga). Not "vipassana", nor "satipatthana". This implies that anagamiship level and higher requires jhanas, immaterial attainments and Brahmavihara... Also to remove hatred, ... re ... Delusion, ... re ... anger, ... re ... the grudging nature, ... re ... spitefulness, ... re ... mercilessness, ... re ... selfishnes, miserliness, envious nature, ... re ... hypocrisy, ... re ... craftiness, ... re ... intoxication, ... re ... and negligence, for its diminution, ... re ... Dispelling, ... re ... Destruction, ... re ... fading, ... re ... disenchantment, ... re ... cessation, ... re ... benevolence, ... re ... and giving up these eleven things should be developed." ====== "Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html "And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible.... Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha1/02-samannaphala-e2.h\ tml "Sariputta entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html "Anuruddha, if you do not seclude the mind from sensual desires and things of demerit, or attain something more exalted than that, covetousness takes hold of your mind and stays*1). Anger takes hold of your mind and stays. Sloth and torpor takes hold of your mind and stays. Restlessness and worry takes hold of your mind and stays and doubts take hold of your mind and stay" MN68 http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/068-nalakapana\ -e1.html "And the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And rising out of the fourth jhana, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. And rising out of the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he attained to the cessation of perception and feeling. Then the Blessed One, rising from the cessation of perception and feeling, entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the fourth jhana. Rising from the fourth jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html "Ananda, as long as I had not attained & emerged from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order in this way, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & common people. But as soon as I had attained & emerged from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order in this way, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & common people. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'My release is unshakable. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.041.than.html 502. Bhikkhus, knowing greed, you should develop eleven things. What eleven? The first higher state of the mind, the scond higher state of the mind, the third higher state of the mind, the fourth higher state of the mind, the release of mind in loving kindness, the release of mind in compassion, the release of mind in intrinsic joy, the relese of mind in equanimity, the sphere of space, the sphere of consciousness and the sphere of nothingness. Bhikkhus, thoroughly knowing greed, these eleven things should be developed. 503.-511. Bhikkhus, thoroughly understanding greed, ... re ... for its diminution, ... re ... Dispelling, ... re ... Destruction, ... re ... fading, ... re ... disenchantment, ... re ... cessation, ... re ... benevolence, ... re ... and giving up thse eleven things should be developed. 512.-617. Bhikkhus, thoroughly understanding hatred, ... re ... Delusion, ... re ... anger, ... re ... the grudging nature, ... re ... spitefulness, ... re ... mercilessness, ... re ... selfishnes, miserliness, envious nature, ... re ... hypocrisy, ... re ... craftiness, ... re ... intoxication, ... re ... and negligence, for its diminution, ... re ... Dispelling, ... re ... Destruction, ... re ... fading, ... re ... disenchantment, ... re ... cessation, ... re ... benevolence, ... re ... and giving up these eleven things should be developed. The Blessed One said thus and those bhikkhus delighted in the words of The Blessed One. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/11-ekadasaka\ nipata/004-ragadipeyyalo-e.html ================================================ With metta, Alex #99644 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:18 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana - versus the religion of Samaadhi (sigh) scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding, A: "Whenever Buddhism (or any religion) became more widespread and fashionable, there is an unfortunate tendency to make it more acceptable, easier, more accommodating to the people, more 'relevant' to the modern times and the preferences that people may have. Buddh-ism is no exception." Scott: The popularisation of 'buddhism' comes in many forms, Alex. There is also a long-standing western tradition of asceticism - of self-punishment and guilt. Those, wherever they be, who seek to put down irrepressible akusala, seek to wage war on aspects of experience that are very well accumulated. The Buddha's teaching are just as easily transformed into the whole western ascetic thing, and self-flagellation is replaced by endless sitting and wishing for jhaana, and imagining ways in which to avoid, by force of common effort, what is natural. This is also a preference, for some. A: "Running into the forest seems to be such a let down for most that some people like to make the teaching suit them rather than the other way around, sucking it up and doing the hard work. Some authors and schools teach that Awakening is nothing more than passive submission to the way things appear to be (or read in a book) rather than 'as they truly are', seen ONLY after Samadhi. Upanisa Sutta. Or that unconditioned is merely easy accessible momentary mindfulness-in-daily life where everything, everything (surfing, sight seeing, travel, strip clubs) is acceptable (especially when done 'mindfully'). Or that ascetism is merely a mental seclusion that one may have as one indulges in sensuality." Scott: These western self-flagellators converge on and become obsessed with the idea of seeking a mental state in which defilements can be suppressed. However rarely it is that this state is actually attained is anybody's guess, but this doesn't stop the creation of a whole new religion based on the pursuit of Samaadhi in the form of jhaana. And here, thoughts about the ascetic - the one pursuing jhaana so diligently and with his or her very hard work, seek to counteract thoughts based on lust or greed or anger or what have you - thoughts about the sinner who is evil by nature and who needs to be cleansed. A: "People cheerfully point out certain passages showing how hard work is not needed and avoid seeing the hard part." Scott: The jhaana-obsessed cannot disengage from thoughts of having to make so much common effort to put down sin, that certain quiet facts are over-looked. One of the main facts is the length of time spent in samsaara - a mind-bogglingly long time. The jhaana enthusiasts are always extremely excited about putting out the fire in the turban in just one life-time and eagerly seek any purported methodology that can speed up that which cannot be sped up - a belief that is more than grandiose. A: "In some circles, and over time, more and more of the Buddha's teaching become merely pop-psychology (like CBT) which is easily acceptable, welcomed by the masses, and doesn't require hard work or sacrifice. Doing hard work at letting go off one's attachment is seen as 'Its just the Ego, the Self doing' while indulging in sense-pleasures is seen as alright. In one of the suttas, one of the conditions of downfall of Buddha's teaching is lack of respect for Samadhi, the only thing that can lead to yathabhutananadassana (Upanisa Sutta). It has turned in some form of 'opium for the people' where anything goes, anything, just do it mindfully and be mindful of nama-rupa arising. No need to destroy any kind of experience." Scott: In contradistinction to 'CBT', the labelling of which as 'pop-psychology' being likely to insult some (not I), is the psychoanalytic method, which is used to slow progress, long time periods, and, especially, the fact of having no control over the so-called pace of the psyche. Now I happen to think that the whole psychoanalytic project founders on it's belief in self, although some authors seem comfortable navigating theoretical waters in which a self is not a necessary postulate. The problem with CBT, since you attempt to adopt the analogy - without understanding it, it would seem - is that CBT is, in my opinion, shallow - some think that one can control emotional states by thinking differently about them. This is just like the views on the misunderstood pursuit of jhaana by the Samaadhi sect. The view that one can, by chasing samaadhi, 'destroy experience' is an extremely shallow one. Anyone who has spent any amount of time in ordinary but careful introspection should have realised that the complexity of things is such that even ordinary worldly awareness is only the tip of an iceberg and our lives, even when thought of conventionally, run more often than not against the grain of our own conscious wishes. This is due, I think, to the fact that convention, however twisted, bases itself on a bedrock of realities and this was what the Buddha elucidated as only a Buddha can - very, very deeply. Sincerely, Scott. #99645 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:35 am Subject: What the Bleep! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Upon Reality all True Explanations will have to Converge! Why so? Reality is one & the same. True complete explanation must thus also be one & same! Standard, internally Consistent and Orthodox, yet still highly Controversial for some: Quantum Mechanics & early Theravāda Buddhism agrees on at least 3 crucial points: 1: The concept of "Static Reality Out There" is violated at the absolute level! Some attributes of the object like location, speed etc. cannot truly be said really to be existing BEFORE observation, or INDEPENDENT of observation! Rather there is a POTENTIALITY of multiple possibilities for these attributes to occur, out of which only one particular one manifests, when INTENTIONAL observation collapses this wave of potentiality into a new real actuality! This momentary EVENT Buddhism calls a Dhammā = Basic mental state of a fundamentally dual mind-matter coincidence! When there is looking and observation phenomena happen! When not looking they don't! Conventional 'Reality ' may thus be known better only as a particular mode of perception... Not as an Absolute Fact! 2: The concept of "Separable Locality in Space" is violated at the absolute level! The same phenomena can both be "individual" and "multiple" even at same time! Individual phenomena can have more than one spatial location at the same time... Two things spatially separated -even by 1/2 a universe- is still causally connected as if they were entangled 'outside' or independent of space and time. Conventional space and time may thus also be known better only as particular modes of perception... Not as Absolute Facts! 3: The elements of Consciousness and its content Information are fundamentally REAL! Consciousness cannot ever be set aside, since it not only is an obviously indispensable requirement and inseparable part of any observation and phenomenon, but it is also an irreducible fundamental element of any process of being (read becoming) alive, that cannot be explained by or cut up into other parts! Consciousness is on the mental side, what space is on the material side: Both can contain and display all, but they do not themselves have any other characteristic, than their primary essence: Naked awareness & empty spatiality... Consciousness and information are the absolute facts, and the fundamental and irreducible reals other things, whether mental or material, are made out of & unambiguously based upon! Some Comparable Concepts from Quantum Physics and early Theravādin Buddhism: Quantum Physics says: Theravādin Buddhism says: Things are in a state of superposition of multiple probabilities of which only one occurs exactly at the moment of measurement ! Before observation things are undetermined, potential and not yet real! This 'Universe' starts and ends all within this ~2 meter frame of a body...! Only when consciousness is present, can solidity, fluidity, heat & motion manifest themselves… When consciousness is absent, the ‘world’ therefore ends! The observer participates thus in the very creation of the object & is therefore inseparable from it! No observation is without affecting the object... The truth about reality is ONE, and neither two nor three! Subject and object is a unity, and not a diverse duality... Observation is desire driven and thus kammically creative. Things can be non-locally entangled ! Things that are spatially widely separated, can still causally and instantly affect each other and act correlated! The sage can be both here and there simultaneously... He can become one, & he can become many of any form! He can instantly know other's thoughts where ever he is. Highly recommendable for this convergent view on our future collectively created reality is this documentary: What the BLEEP Do We Know!? extended as: Down the Rabbit Hole How far do U dare go? <...>Unique & Subtle is Knowing the real Real just as it is! Have a really nice really real day! ;-) Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samāhita, <...> #99646 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apology for wrong speech sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Back to #99365 --- On Mon, 20/7/09, Phil wrote: >> S: Well, no Buddha here and I see no problem with your 'write and run' approach. I was just discussing styles with Scott and I never think in terms of 'trolls'. I think people write because they have an interest in the Teachings, that's all. ... >Ph: Yes, but slanderous speech is wrong speech and is harmful to onself and others. If I were you, I would encourage Dhamma friends to continue to abstain from slander rather than "seeing no problem" in it, you know? ... S: I agree with you about "slanderous speech" and I think you'll find plenty of evidence in the guidelines and archives that I/we definitely do strongly discourage it, but also look for 'skilful means' to assist anyone who would like to participate, but has a problem with such speech. What I said I saw no problem with was your 'write and run' messages. I don't see any 'slanderous speech' in such an approach. .... >> S: Share, write and run anytime:). >Ph: No, I will continue to abstain from harmful speech. (I don't know if it is harmful to others for sure, but I know it is harmful to me. I am become more and more sensitive to what constitutes wrong speech and hopefully more and more awttuned to abstaining from it.) .... S: Well, we can only truly know our own intentions and I'm glad to hear that you are becoming "more sensitive to what constitutes wrong speech". Yes, it can be as simple as a little sarcasm, or a put-down . If someone speaks sharply or condescendingly to me, I find it helpful to reflect a little before writing back in the same style. There are always opportunities for sati regardless, however one speaks or writes - dhammaa to be known, not "Me" who we want to be so good. ... >>S:...Let me assure you that if I had had any hint or clue from you that you were about to do something seriously harmful to you and your wife, I would have sent you an off-list cautionary note. >Ph: Yes, but at the same time you were expressing consistently opinions along the line of "don't try to be a better person, trying always involves self, if there is trying it is a sign of self at work, let awareness of nama and rupa perform its function and behaviour will improve" which is very deep and attractive but leaves people who are prone to bad behaviour without helpful support. .... S: I think my consistent message has been that any clinging to the self does not lead to more wholesome behaviour, instead to more selfishness. Most people who come here, like yourself, have studied and considered Buddhism for sometime. Everyone knows already that drinking and drugs are very harmful, that killing, stealing, lying, sexual misconduct are the grossest kinds of akusala (Unwholesomeness) and to be known as such and avoided as such. As you know, however, dhammaa are conditioned, and we know many friends such as yourself who have studied the Dhamma in detail, even been good monks for many years, listened at length to KS and yet still have serious lapses in siila (moral deeds). The cause is not what we or anyone else has said/not said, but the strongly accumulated kilesa (defilements). As I said: "People are pretty good at keeping these things secret from friends and family until after the event, however, because they don't wish to hear any discouragement of the lobha involved at the time." Dhamma friends who are busy drinking and partying are not usually active on the list or attending sessions with KS at the time. ... >I am studying Dhammapada in detail now, in Pali, with as much commentary as possible, and become more and more convinced that the Buddha did not stress insight into anatta at all costs, that he stressed at first righting behaviour. ... S: Both are important, I'd say. With more understanding of anatta, there will definitely be more "righting behaviour" too. A sotapanna has completely "righted behaviour". I don't think you'll find that those of us who most strongly advocate insight into anatta have gone down a seriously wrong behaviour path since - I think you'll find the opposite tendency. I'd like you to share more from the Dhammapada - I find those verses very deep and helpful to reflect on in detail. Please give the Pali and commentary too - all most useful. ... >The Buddha knew that human birth is very rare and that there is a horribly high probability of being swept back into the seas of the woeful realms (this is an image used a few times.) There is a repeated emphasis on the importance of right conventional behaviour, because by righting conventional behaviour we are likely to be righting the way harmful dhammas accumulate. I feel very fortunate to understand this, very fortunate to understand that I (so to speak) was born with very harmful tendencies (people are different, you will have to admit that someday!) ... S: True, but as Scott was saying to Alex, we were all born with very harmful tendencies, whether they've been manifesting or not. I'm very glad to hear that you've not been drinking or repeating some seriously harmful behaviour to you and your loved ones. You also have some very good tendencies, Phil - especially your keen interest in developing more understanding and truthfully facing up to the real causes of the problems in life. ... >and very fortunate to understand that ultimately there is a more profound liberation that involves insight into the characteristics of dhammas. But to place an immediate emphasis on the latter when people are destroying their rare situation by bad behaviour is not the best way of being a friend, in my opinion (and my opinion is right here! :) ... S: :) OK - avoid all bad behaviour in future! What else can I say? You know what is bad. ... Ph:> Yes, you're right, I was thiinking about this. When I went to Bangkok in 1991 I was hellbent on finding sweet young prostitutes and All the King's Horses and All the King's Men couldn't have stopped me. I don't try to stop my young co-workers from carousing, I know it has to play out. But it's different when people have awoken to the Dhamma. When I performed my evil deeds 5 years ago it was as a practicing Buddhist who, if I had been associating with the right friends and listening to the right teachers, would simply not have drank alcohol, wouldn't have broken that precept, plain and simple. ... S: If it were so plain and simple.....Those tendencies are there whether someone has 'awoken to the Dhamma' or not. Lots of ifs, but we don't know. We usually associate with what we want to hear at the time. ... >...and thanks to listening to teachers like U Pandita Sayadaw who are quite fierce on moral issues the probability of my ever drinking alcohol again, of my ever playing that dangerous and foolish "a little bit won't hurt" game again, is nearly nought. ... S: Glad to hear it, very glad. ... >Oh yes, Angulimina or whatever his name was. People love that murderer because he makes it look like anyone is ready to awaken to the deep teachings at any time. Great, very convenient! ... S: :) ... >Thanks for letting me ramble a bit, off to Canada in a few days, see you at Tim Horton's. (Not you, Sarah, only Canadians are allowed to go to Tim Horton's.) ... S: Well, hope you're having fun at Tim Horton's and with your family, Phil. I'm sure it means a lot to them to have you visit and spend time together. Best wishes to Naomi too and thanks for allowing me to ramble on too... Metta Sarah ======= #99647 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > . . . > Buddha and thus this is implied in all parts of the scriptures, also > when it is not expressively mentioned. We read in the "Middle Length > Sayings" (II, 97, Discourse with Dhnajni) that Sriputta taught > the brahman Dhnajni when he was sick about the meditations which > are the "Divine Abidings" of lovingkindness, compassion, sympathetic > joy and equanimity. With these meditations, when they are developed, > jhna or absorption can be attained. However, jhna is not the goal > of the Buddha's teachings. ---------------- Hi Nina, Thanks for your help. When you say satipatthana is "implied in all parts of the scriptures, also when it is not expressively mentioned" does that include the teaching given to Subha? I can see that we, when we read about the teaching he was given, should see it in terms of satipatthana. But was Subha also expected to see it that way? It is such a 'here and now' teaching; I can't imagine any situation in which right understanding needs to be put off until another time. Another time for whom? :-) Ken H > Ven. Bodhi gives a note, remarking that the Buddha knew that > Dhana~njani had the potentials for enlightenment and that he > therefore gently rebuked Saariputta. However, in sutta 99, Subha > sutta, he only taught the Brahmavihaaras, knowing that Subha had > accumulations for the path to the company of Brahmaa. > Thus, the Buddha knew what to teach to whom. > ------- > Nina. #99648 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, #99224 --- On Wed, 15/7/09, Phil wrote: >>S: Jon and I tried to indicate that the problem is our expectations of others and that the real problem is not 'the other person' but our own concerns. PH:>Interesting. Obviously the Dhammapada tells us not to consider what the other does, but what we do. But there is a another sutta that tells us that that - I don't have it with me, it's in AN - a person should help others to develop virtue in addition to developing it him or herself. Teaching by example in a non-obtrusive way is usually the best way, but there is a time for intervention. Remember your friends who got in trouble with the law in Hong Kong? There is a time for intervention. ..... S: Yes, of course - if we are 'present' and able to help, we will. Often/usually we're not present and are unable to assist. Take the surfer friends, you mention. We only ever see them in the mornings and have no idea what anyone gets up to at night. Having said that, I have been able to encourage our friend not to drink anymore and to show greater consideration to his wife. My comments wouldn't have been welcomed before the trouble, however. .... >...Keep an eye out for friends who are behaving in harmful ways and perhaps have a word about your concern that they are harming themselves and others. If it is in vain, fine, but to completely abstain from that kind of intervention for some deep Dhamma reason can be irresponsible and a failure of the mangala of looking after our friends. .... S: I think this is helpful - as you say, even if it is in vain, OK. At least we can try and it's good you point it out. I don't think any of us would "completely abstain from that kind of intervention for some deep Dhamma reason". The latter makes no sense to me and I'm not sure why you'd think we'd not offer advice if we feel we have an opportunity to assist. We have had close friends in Bangkok who've "indulged in harmful behaviour" over the years, as you've suggested. But honestly speaking, lack of good examples and kindly advice/reminders is seldom any part of the problem. .... >My two cents worth. The sex tourism is just one example. Domestic violence, alcohol abuse, habitual harsh and hurtful speech, it could be any number forms of akusala kamma patha. .... S: I see these as being just as serious problems as you do, Phil. It can be extremely difficult to speak to and guide someone who is involved with any of the above unless they wish to have such assistance. But, as you say, we can but try and I certainly have in a number of cases over the years, rest assured. Thanks for your encouragement to keep trying - we can always do more and I appreciate your suggestion that we can help each other here more if we feel anyone is getting into trouble. Serious wrong views are of course a big kind of trouble too. Metta Sarah ======== #99649 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. sarahprocter... Hi Azita, #99245 --- On Thu, 16/7/09, gazita2002 wrote: Ph:>>Teaching by example in a non-obtrusive way is usually the best way, but there is a time for intervention. >azita: I find this a difficult arena. I agree with Sarah about it not being the other person but our own concerns. I think when I do make comments about others behaviour, and I seem to do that less and less these days bec I'm not sure where I'm coming from, eg I feel as if there is a lot of mana involved - on my part. ... S: I find the same. Even if we don't say anything, but think about others' behaviour in a 'condescending' kind of way, mana is there. One of my tall, blonde nieces was off on a night-clubbing holiday after we met in Italy. I'd like to have been able to say something, as would her mother and grandmother, but, it would have just caused an upset and not made any difference to her plans. But lots of mana there and at many other times over the week's family holiday when the young got up very late and lazed around or drank too much.... ... >when I hear others 'bad mouthing' someone else, there is a cringing feeling and then I'm almsot sure mana pops right in there, comparing myself eg 'oh, I wouldnt say that' blah, blah. Or worse still ;-( I may agree with them! An ocean of concepts until a moment of right understanding and then sea of concepts again. ... S: Yes, I know the feeling, the dosa and the mana....lots more akusala and still, never 'the other person'! Still, different moments, sometimes there's metta and concern for the one who's 'bad mouthing' or had a tough experience and there can be a kind effort to help them. ... >patience, courage and good cheer, ... S: Doesn't seem a problem in sunny Syd, but then we forget about patience with the lobha:-). How nice if you could pop down tomorrow for the day with Vince and Nancy! We'll think of you anyway. Hope to see you in Bkk before too long. Have a good trip! Metta Sarah ======= #99650 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 2, no 11. sarahprocter... Hi Azita & Alberto, --- On Thu, 16/7/09, gazita2002 wrote: Az:>>An ocean of concepts until a moment of right understanding and then sea of concepts again. ... Al:>>Cy 1313. [1314, 1315] Exposition of the couplet on designation [terminology, concept] "That which, of whatever dhammas, is...", all dhammas are included [pa~n~natti itself, i.e. the boundless ocean of concepts] **** S: Appreciating the good reminders as I look out on the ocean here, mistakenly taken to be a reality:) A moment of right understanding, a moment of sanity, is a precious gem. Then back to the sea again, as you say. Metta Sarah ======= #99651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:10 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 5, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, It is after the first stage of insight that pa can come to know directly nma and rpa as conditioned realities. This does not mean that there has to be thinking about all the different conditions for each reality. This stage of insight is different from our intellectual understanding at this moment of the different conditions for nma and rpa. Some people think that knowing the conditions for aversion, dosa, would help to eliminate it. They think that knowing the conditions means thinking about the circumstances, the story. However, that is not pa which realizes conditions, it is thinking of concepts. Is there not an idea of my dosa about which one thinks? The way to eliminate dosa is the development of right understanding of all realities which appear. Only when one has attained the third stage of enlightenment dosa can be eradicated. It cannot be eradicated so long as the wrong view of self has not been eradicated. When dosa appears its characteristic can be studied so that it can be realized as only a conditioned reality, not my dosa. The real cause of dosa is not the circumstances, not the other people. Our accumulations of dosa condition its arising. There were countless moments of dosa in the past and thus it can arise today. There is ignorance accompanying each moment of dosa, thus ignorance is a condition for it. There is no attachment, lobha, at the same time as dosa, but lobha is also a condition for dosa. We like pleasant objects and when the object is unpleasant there is aversion, we dislike it when we dont get what we want. Thus we see that there are several conditioning factors for realities, some of which arise at the same time and some of which do not arise at the same time. ****** Nina. #99652 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 29-jul-2009, om 5:58 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > Thanks for your help. When you say satipatthana is "implied in all > parts > of the scriptures, also when it is not expressively mentioned" does > that > include the teaching given to Subha? I can see that we, when we read > about the teaching he was given, should see it in terms of > satipatthana. > But was Subha also expected to see it that way? --------- N:I think I would write now: satipatthana is "often implied in all parts of the scriptures, .." Thus, adding: often, to be on the safe side. Subha was not ready yet, I think. But, in order to understand what mettaa, compassion etc. really are, their characteristics must be known in daily life. Otherwise it is not possible to develop them as meditation subjects. So, it all comes back to citta and cetasikas, to feeling, to all realities. -------- > > K: It is such a 'here and now' teaching; I can't imagine any > situation in > which right understanding needs to be put off until another time. > Another time for whom? :-) ------ N: Agreed: here and now, the characteristics appearing now should be known. And this counts also for samatha. This will not be very fruitful without vipassanaa, I think. ----- Nina. #99653 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - panna or an aspect of samma-samadhi? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 29-jul-2009, om 1:08 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Many people had meditation retreats far longer than 7 days and some > people have been trying to "see realities as they are" for longer > than 7 years and yet the results have been very minimum, if any at > all. > What have may have been overlooked? ------- N: That it is possible to be aware right now of the present reality. No good thinking of the seven years, etc. , that is thinking of the future, wishing for result, instead of understanding this very moment, even if the present moment is the thinking and wishing for a future result. A lot of patience is needed and that is the hard work. Nina. #99654 From: "sprlrt" Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:08 am Subject: Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') sprlrt Hi Connie and Scott, I think this sutta refers to the non-operativity of cetana in the eight maha-kiriya (sobhana) and in the hasittupada-kiriya cittas of the arahant (endowed with jhnas as well). The 8 maha-kiriya are composed with the same cetasikas than the 8 maha-kusala, including the 2 or 3 kusala roots. DhsA uses the simile of the the two types of fruitless (kirya) blossoms, the ones blown off the tree by the wind, i.e. the sense and the mind door adverting consciousness; and the ones on the branches of the pruned tree left on the ground, the kirya cittas of the arahant only. Cetanaakara.niiyasutta.m: The discourse on having done with [kusala or akusala] cetan, i.e. no more kamma, see PTS kara.niiya entry (3.) Alberto #99655 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:31 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (26-27), sutta 27 and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 27. Walshe: DN 33.1.11(27) 'Four kinds of resolve (adhi.t.thaanaani): [to gain] (a) wisdom, (b) truth (sacca), *1070 (c) relinquishment (caaga), (d) tranquillity (upasama). (Cattaari adhi.t.thaanaani - pa~n~naadhi.t.thaana.m, saccaadhi.t.thaana.m, caagaadhi.t.thaana.m, upasamaadhi.t.thaana.m.) -------- N: Adi.t.thaana is usually translated as resolve or decision. In this context the meaning is foundation dhamma. The co. gives the word derivation of adhi, as a mere prefix, and .thaana, a foundation one can stand on (ti.t.thati), namely for superior persons. They are foundation dhammas for the excellent qualities of superior persons. We read in the Commentary to the Basket of Conduct (Cariyaapi.taka) about four dhammas which are firm foundations, adihna dhammas, dhammas that are basic to all the perfections. These are: truthfulness, sacca, relinquishment, cga, calm or peace, upasama, and pa. The Co. to the Sangiitisutta explains that the foundation dhamma of pa~n~naa is pa~n~naa accompanying the highest fruition, that of truthfulness is truthfulness in speech, that of relinquishment the relinquishment of sense pleasures, that of calm (upasama) the allaying of defilements. The Co gives a further explanation, as to pa~n~naa: having realised, to begin with, the ownership of kamma and vipassanaa pa~n~naa, the highest is pa~n~naa accompanying phalacitta, the lokuttara vipaakacitta of the arahat. As to truthfulness, after having realised, to begin with, truthfulness in speech, the highest truth is nibbaana. --------- the subco adds: the truthfulness of abstention (viratisacca.m). N: One is sincere, truthful, in the performing of kusala and the abstention of akusala. ---------- The Co: As to relinquishment (caga), after having realised, to begin with, the giving up of desire of sense pleasures, the highest is the giving up of defilements at the moment of the highest magga-citta (of the arahat). ------- The subco deals with the three levels of defilements: coarse defilement which is transgression, viitikkama (akusala kamma), medium defilement arising with akusala citta, pariyut.t.thaana, and the latent tendencies, anusaya, which is subtle defilement lying dormant in each citta. It states that the lowest Path (of the sotaapanna) eradicates latent tendencies. N: The latent tendencies of wrong view and doubt are eradicated by the sotaapanna. ---------. Co: As to tranquillity (upasama), having realised, to begin with, the suppression of defilements, the highest is the cessation of defilements by the highest magga-citta. ------- The subco: Nibbaana is truth in the highest sense because of the absence of delusion, the giving up of all defilements and the cessation of all conditioned dhammas. --------- We read in the Perfections by Acharn Sujin: < Without the four foundation dhammas, adihna dhammas, of truthfulness, relinquishment, calm, and pa, we cannot reach the further shore... If a person sees the benefit of steadfastness in relinquishment, cgadihna, the elimination of defilements, he also has steadfastness in calm, upasamadihna; calm is freedom of defilements. We are absorbed in and disturbed by visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. True calm is freedom from infatuation with the sense objects....When someone is firmly established in the foundation dhamma of calm, it is conditioned by the foundation dhamma of pa. > The subco mentions truthfulness of abstention (viratisacca.m). This refers to truthfulness in the eradication of akusala and the development of kusala. We read further on in the Perfections: < Truthfulness is the dhamma that enhances the arising and development of all kusala, because truthfulness is sincerity with regard to the eradication of defilements. When kusala does not arise and we realize that we are not sincere in the development of kusala, this can be a condition for its arising. When akusala arises we should be truthful so that sati sampajaa can be aware of the characteristic of akusala. In this way there are conditions for the abandoning of akusala and the development of kusala.> < As we read in the Commentary, All evil states converge upon the transgression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future. Thus, we see the significance of the perfection of truthfulness. This is truthfulness and sincerity with regard to the right practice leading to the eradication of defilements; it includes the development of all kinds of kusala so that the noble Truths can be realized. We need the perfection of sacca, truthfulness, with regard to the right practice: our sole purpose should be the penetration of the true nature of realities.> (end quote). Steadfastness in truthfulness really is a foundation dhamma together with the other three foundation dhammas necessary to attain enlightenment. ------------- Co Pali: Adhi.t.thaanaaniiti ettha adhiiti upasaggamatta.m. Atthato pana tena vaa ti.t.thanti, tattha vaa ti.t.thanti, .thaanameva vaa ta.mta.mgu.naadhikaana.m purisaana.m adhi.t.thaana.m, pa~n~naava adhi.t.thaana.m pa~n~naadhi.t.thaana.m.... ------- Nina. #99656 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Still Misunderstood Vanapattha Suttam: Re: More on Seclusion in Jungle sarahprocter... Dear Han (Suan & all), Thank you for kindly giving the Pali and translation for key terms and for helping us with this thread. --- On Sat, 25/7/09, han tun wrote: >Han: The Buddha did not mention the conditions in a particular place that are conducive to achieving the above four achievements. So it is difficult to tell which jungle thicket or a village is the place to stay or to depart. The bhikkhu will have to find out by himself the conditions prevailing in the particular place, and depart or stay depending on whether the prevailing conditions are conducive to achieving those four achievements or not. .... S: When you say "So it is difficult to tell which jungle thicket or a village is the place to stay or to depart", I think there may be too much emphasis again on the jungle thicket or village rather than on the establishment of mindfulness and so on. For example, you recently quoted in the serial presentation of "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena" by Nina: "We then read that King Udena praised the Buddha's words. He said about his own experiences: " "I myself, master Bhaaradvaaja, whenever I enter my palace with body, speech and mind unguarded, with thought unsettled, with my faculties uncontrolled,- at such times lustful states overwhelm me. But whenever, master Bhaaradvaaja, I do so with body, speech and mind guarded, with thought settled, with my faculties controlled, at such times lustful states do not overwhelm me...." ... S: In other words, the palace doesn't change and could be replaced by "jungle thicket", "village" or "ocean", for that matter. The point is, as I understand, that it is the "lustful states" and pre-occupation with the signs and details (nimitta anupya~njana) that is the 'problem'. ... S: Continuing the quote: "We read that King Udena took his refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha." ... S: Through the established mindfulness, wisdom, concentration and so on, the taints are destroyed, there is security from bondage and refuge is taken in the Triple Gem, regardless of the kind of palace, jungle or village. ... "How can we avoid being misled by the outward appearance or by the details of phenomena? By understanding realities as they are when they appear, one at a time. The following sutta in the "Kindred Sayings"(IV, Sa.laayatanavagga, Second Fifty, Ch 3, 82, The World) reminds us not to cling to a "whole" but to be mindful of only one object at a time as it appears through one of the six doors: "Then a certain monk came to see the Exalted One.... Seated at one side that monk said to the Exalted One: `The world! The world! is the saying, lord. How far, lord, does this saying go?' `It crumbles away, monks. Therefore it is called the world' [Note 14]. What crumbles away? The eye... objects... eye-consciousness... eye-contact... that pleasant or unpleasant or neutral feeling that arises owing to eye-contact... tongue... body... mind... It crumbles away, monks. Therefore it is called the world'." ... S: In other words, the 'world' is not the jungle, the village, the palace or any other setting. The world is the visible object seen now, the sound heard now and so on, regardless of where we may be in a conventional sense. ... H:> Thus, in these circumstances, when one cannot tell with confidence [at least I cannot tell] which conditions are conducive to achieving the above four achievements, I tend to agree with the comments made by Sarah: Quote: "The point of the sutta, as I understand it, is that whether living in a forest, a village, a town, a city or with a particular person, with or without plentiful necessities, it is the development of satipatthana and the destruction of the taints that counts. That's why I said there was not much use in seclusion in the forest without the development of sati-sampaja~ n~naa. The same would apply to the village, town, city, person or any other circumstance. " End Quote. ... S: I'm glad you "tend to agree", Han. As satipatthana develops, so does the confidence in the 'conditions conducive for achieving the above four achievements', i.e. the wise considering of what we've heard about the realities being experienced now, the world appearing at this moment which can be directly known. Metta and appreciation Sarah ======= #99657 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (31) sarahprocter... Dear Han, #99415 Thank you also for kindly giving all the extra helpful notes and detail on the Pathama Samudda Sutta. You're really very quick and adept at finding all the helpful information and laying it out beautifully for us all to consider further. Apologies for my slow responses. --- On Wed, 22/7/09, han tun wrote: >Han: The Notes 161 and 162 concern with SN 35, 228 Pathama Samudda Sutta. Note 161 is on [The eye, bhikkhus, is the ocean for a person; its currents consists of forms.] Quote: [The eye is the ocean for a person: both in the sense of being hard to fill and in the sense of submerging (samudda-na. t.thena). (i) It is an ocean in the sense of being hard to fill because it is impossible to fill it (satisfy it) with visible objects converging on it from the earth up to the highest brahmaa world. (ii) And the eye is an ocean in the sense of submerging because it submerges (one) among various object, that is, when it becomes unrestrained, flowing down, it goes in a faulty way by being a cause for the arising of defilements. Its current consists of forms: As the ocean has the countless waves, so the *ocean of the eye* has countless waves consisting of the various visible objects converging on it.] End Quote. ... S: Oceans in all directions at present - the oceans of concepts, the oceans of visible objects and then all the sounds I'm presently taking for oceans... ... Han: The note is self-explanatory. ------------ -------- Note 162 is on [One who withstands that current consisting of forms is said to have crossed the ocean of the eye with its waves, whirpools, sharks, and demons.] Quote: [At It 114, 15-18 the following explanation of these dangers is given: waves (uumi) are anger and despair (kodhuupaayaasa) ; whirlpools (aava.t.ta) are the five chords of sensual pleasure; sharks and demons (gaaharakkhasa) are women.] End Quote. .... S: Yes, these are mentioned in several suttas, but I like to be reminded of them, especially as I jump into the waves and whirlpools here:) ... Han; Here also, the note is self-explanatory. Of the dangers listed above, I think the five chords of sensual pleasure (kaama-gu.na) are the most dangerous. ... S: Yes, very dangerous. As I quoted in another thread from the Catuma Sutta: http://www.vipassana.info/067-catuma-e1.htm "Bhikkhus, what is the fear for whirl pools? Bhikkhus, a certain son of a clansman out of faith goes forth from a household and becomes a homeless thinking I'm overcome by birth, decay, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress. He thinks there's only a few who could declare the complete ending of this unpleasantness. He gone forth thus, putting on robes in the morning, takes bowl and robes and goes the alms round, in the village or hamlet controlled in body and speech, mindfulness not established and mental faculties not protected. In the village he sees a householder or the son of a householder partaking the five strands of sensual pleasures, possessed and provided with them. Then it occurs to him, when I was a householder, I too partook these five strands of sensual pleasures, possessed and provided. I have wealth in my clan, to enjoy these sensual pleasures. I could do merit, too. Then he gives up robes and becomes a layman. He gives up robes and becomes a layman out of fear for whirlpools, it is said. Bhikkhus, fear for whirlpool is a synonymn for, the five strands of sensual pleasures. " .... S: Thank you also for your further dictionary quote on kaama and for the detailed notes. Metta and appreciation, Partner:) Sarah ====== #99658 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meta-communication/Mettaa-communication sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- On Wed, 22/7/09, Scott wrote: >Scott: ... I recall, long ago it seems, that I wanted to stop replying to posts when dosa was present - or some such sort of impossible asceticism. I think it was Nina who suggested I may as well reply anyway. .... Sarah: Bound to be many different cittas regardless. We can wait til the metta light shines, but who knows what the citta will be a few moments later? ... >Sarah: "If one tries to share or help with kusala cittas and without expectations or attachment to the result, I don't think the missionary thing applies. It's when we mind about the effect (or lack of effect) of our 'words of wisdom' that we get uptight or cantankerous about what the others say, I feel..." Scott: Ah, but 'trying in such a fashion' - that's the problem isn't it? I can't make uphekkha arise, or kusala in general. I can wait until I notice it, which is the opposite of not replying if I notice akusala, and then were back into that whole thing. How does one 'try to help with kusala/' I think it would amount to being able to reply when kusala is present. ... Sarah: When we think of the others' welfare instead of our own and would like to share or help, there are more conditions for metta. Of course, no one who can make kusala arise. We just do our best at any time. .... >I find I get 'cantankerous' when I imagine I'm being told what to do or talked down to or 'taught' by someone. Some people remain rebels without a cause. ;-) ... Sarah ;-) Maana, as Azita and I were chatting about... "Why does he talk to ME like that?", "How dare he tell ME what to do?", "Does he really think he knows better than the big "I"? ". ... >....I don't know, he wouldn't let me fence him in, as it were, being an old cowboy maybe. ;-) .... Sarah: Perhaps you think too much as KS often says to us all. Never mind what someone said or thought or wrote yesterday or last year. Passing cittas, that's all. We're also not the same person with the same ideas as a few moments ago and we appreciate it if our past errors are not held against us:) ... >I know: A lot of stories. I can't yet, or often enough, experience a potential discussion as something which offers a chance for pariyatti. Instead, I'm thinking of me and someone else, and yet again being told how to think - all things I do myself. Hmmph. Now I'm back to that fall-back option of not responding at all... .... Sarah: Hmmph indeed:-) Many good points have come out of your discussions with Dan, Alex and all - much on 'no control', pariyatti, present moment and so on. Appreciated! Yes, lots of stories behind the scenes, same for all:-)) ... >No, really, I think it would be cool to experience the views alone and respond only to these. I tried that to - just useless technique, right? Dhammaa do what they do. ... Sarah: True... Gradually the Dhamma does work its way, however, I find.... .... >Ah well, enough of this rant. Thanks, Sarah. ... S: Oh well, seems a day for me to rant on in response to other rants:) "It's all good", as they say Down Under, a lot! Meta-chat anytime, Scott... I appreciate your sincerity in this regard. Meta Metta Sarah ======= #99659 From: han tun Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:26 am Subject: Re: Sarah Still Misunderstood Vanapattha Suttam: Re: More on Seclusion in Jungle hantun1 Dear Sarah, > Sarah: Thank you for kindly giving the Pali and translation for key terms and for helping us with this thread. Han: Apart from the Pali words, I do not think I have helped anyone with this thread. I just responded because you had mentioned my name in your post. I maintain my position as I had written in my preamble: [I read MN 17 Vanapattha Sutta for the first time when I saw my name in the post by Sarah. So my comments will be very superficial and may not touch the deep meaning of the sutta, and may not be of any use in the current discussions by the veteran members of the Group.] -------------------- > Sarah: When you say "So it is difficult to tell which jungle thicket or a village is the place to stay or to depart", I think there may be too much emphasis again on the jungle thicket or village rather than on the establishment of mindfulness and so on. Han: It may be so. But I have said earlier, that my comments will be very superficial, and may not touch the deep meaning of the sutta. I lack the analytical knowledge that you possess. When I quoted the text from the book by Nina, I did just that, i.e., I just *quoted*. What all I said at that time was [Yes, it is a timely reminder for us to attain control of the faculties.] -------------------- Han: I have no disagreement with what you have written with regard to the rest of the text from the book by Nina. -------------------- Sarah: I'm glad you "tend to agree", Han. As satipatthana develops, so does the confidence in the 'conditions conducive for achieving the above four achievements', i.e. the wise considering of what we've heard about the realities being experienced now, the world appearing at this moment which can be directly known. Han; I notice you have put the quotation marks on my comment, "tend to agree". I do not know satipa.t.thaana as much as you do. So I can only tend to agree. If I am not decisive enough, then please consider it as one of my shortcomings. Respectfully, Han #99660 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meta-communication/Mettaa-communication scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: Sarah: "Bound to be many different cittas regardless. We can wait til the metta light shines, but who knows what the citta will be a few moments later?" Scott: Or before there is a 'waiting.' What is it, technically, do you think, that creates the 'wait' of which you speak? Could be kusala or akusala, I guess. The common recourse of 'counting-to-ten' is something anyone can advise or try, and it would produce an 'interpersonal' result that could look very much like kusala. Do I want it to 'look like kusala?' No. I'd rather 'look' whatever way, than fake 'kusala' to appear all pious and whatnot. More thinking, as discussed below. Sarah: "When we think of the others' welfare instead of our own and would like to share or help, there are more conditions for metta. Of course, no one who can make kusala arise. We just do our best at any time." Sarah ";-) Maana, as Azita and I were chatting about... 'Why does he talk to ME like that?', 'How dare he tell ME what to do?', 'Does he really think he knows better than the big 'I'?." Scott: I'm just like that! You guys weren't talking about me, were you? You know, like subtly? Whatever. ;-) I even know it's total conceit. I have the 'subtle' twist that says, 'I don't know much, but neither does he,' but, again, whatever. Yeah, it's true. I'd rather wait for true kusala, but in the absence, given that I can't seem not to discuss, I guess I'll discuss roughly at times because I feel it's either that or not at all. There are many who I'd like to discuss with who just don't show up very often. I think I've tried every way in the book, for example, to talk sense into Alex - whatever that means - and can make no headway. More maana, right: 'Why doesn't he ever listen?', 'Why the same unchanging view?' You'd advocate continuing, perhaps. But why? I have an 'unchanging view' as well, (as do you) if I'm saying a variation of the same thing to someone all the time. Sarah: "Perhaps you think too much as KS often says to us all. Never mind what someone said or thought or wrote yesterday or last year. Passing cittas, that's all. We're also not the same person with the same ideas as a few moments ago and we appreciate it if our past errors are not held against us:)" Scott: Do I think too much? For sure. I've heard Kh. Sujin say as much to others quite a few times during various recordings. I'm always thinking of the last bit of akusala, knowing such thoughts for conceit (see above) and lamenting the fact of akusala long gone, wishing it never came again. I realize that this is all of us, really. Sarah: "Hmmph indeed:-) Many good points have come out of your discussions with Dan, Alex and all - much on 'no control', pariyatti, present moment and so on. Appreciated! Yes, lots of stories behind the scenes, same for all:-))" Scott: I don't know about that. It's a tough one for me. I get the part where pariyatti is the moment-to-moment 'study' of dhammaa one cannot make one's self do, and that the study of the texts is the conceptual counterpart to this, and that sati and pa~n~naa 'mediate' the whole thing as conditions allow and 'in their own time' and whatnot. I still wonder, 'Why discuss?' What purpose does it serve? A rhetorical question. I know it is one of the conditions for Right View, if I recall correctly, given the actual 'nature of the discussants,' mind you. Sarah: "True... Gradually the Dhamma does work its way, however, I find...." Scott: Yeah. Who am I to think that I can express the Dhamma as I understand it though? And, Ha Ha, by the way: 'Meta-mettaa' - good one. Sincerely, Scott. #99661 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nilovg Dear Dan, in different contexts the order of suttamaya~naa.na and cintamaya~naa.na varies, and this is no problem. It depends on what is emphasized. Nina. Op 28-jul-2009, om 7:31 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > Sarah, again, as with pariyatti, I'll stick with the texts rather > than twisting and squeezing them into an apparently artificial > "intellectual understanding -> direct understanding" interpretation. #99662 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] attaining N8P, perfecting sammaditthi & sila = sotapanna. Not other way around. nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-jul-2009, om 23:25 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > Let us all agree that it is important to keep sila and put utmost > effort not to break the precepts. ------ N: I agree, we can really have the intention to observe the precepts, and this is conditioned by hearing dhamma, seeing the value of kusala. Citta and sobhana cetasikas that assist the kusala citta, not self. At the same time we know that so long as we are not sotaapanna, siila is not enduring. When we are in danger of life, for example, we may transgress. Nina. #99663 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Dear Dan, should we keep you busy so you do not leave yet? Until next spring? I hope you stay on. Op 27-jul-2009, om 18:26 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > --> What about rules for studying? Do we think about the words and > try to come up with intellectual theories of how all the pieces fit > together? And then check our theories with the texts? Or do we sit > in a corner, eyes closed and try to pay attention to dhammas, > observing how the pieces fit together? ------- N: Neither, neither. Intellectual studies, no, that is not it. Eyes closed: no, no. How can you know visible object as not a thing, not a person, and seeing as not I who sees in that way? Just leading our daily life normally, and developing more understanding little by little. By listening you understand more what to be aware of. Nina. #99664 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:13 pm Subject: Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') scottduncan2 Dear Alberto, Regarding: A: "I think this sutta refers to the non-operativity of cetana in the eight maha-kiriya (sobhana) and in the hasittupada-kiriya cittas of the arahant (endowed with jhaanas as well)...Cetanaakara.niiyasutta.m: The discourse on having done with [kusala or akusala] cetanaa, i.e. no more kamma, see PTS kara.niiya entry (3.)" Scott: Do you think the whole sutta refers to this, or just a section of it? It would seem to refer to the arahat when describing one 'in full possession of virtue,' wouldn't it? If one considers 'cetanaa' as a mental factor arising with each and every citta, it is tempting to generalize the principle, possibly misappropriating it to support the contention that there is no controlling of dhammaa and, therefore, no correspondence to a conscious thought or wish and that which actually arises 'naturally.' The sutta, in relation to 'na cetnaaya kara.niiya,' a footnote refers the reader to a footnote in Dhammasa"nga.ni ('5) What on this occasion is volition (cetanaa)?'): "It is unfortunate that Buddhaghosa does not give a comparative analysis of the two forms, citta.m, cetanaa, as he does in the case of vitakka-vicaara and piiti-sukka.m. Under cetanaa he expatiates in forcible similes, describing it as a process of activity and toil, and as a co-ordinating, ordering function. He likens it to an energetic farmer, bustling about his fifty-five labourers (the fifty-five co-constituents in the thought-complex) to get in the harvest; to a senior apprentice at the carpenter's, working himself and supervising the tasks of others; to the leader of a warrior band, fighting and inciting. To these notions the definition of Naagasena (Mil. 61) only adds that of preparing (abhisankhara.na.m), the other qualifying term being merely a denominative form (as if we should say 'thinkifying')..." Sincerely, Scott. #99665 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:06 pm Subject: Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika onco111 Yah, sure you betcha'. I'm familiar with the lists and the ordering and the definitions and so on and so forth. I can see the sequence of Pr-Ac-Cn-Ch-Jh for the process of absorption. But what about the process of almost absorption (as, e.g., described in Vism)? It seems to be Pr-Pr-Pr-Pr-Pr-Pr...Pr-Ac-Ac-Ac-Ac...and then back to scatteredness and then back to Pr-Pr-Ac-Ac-Ac-Ac. Or maybe it is Pr-Ac a bunch of times before Pr-Ac-Cn-Ch-Jh. -Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi again, Dan. > > Dan: Vism descriptions of preparatory and access concentrations are elongated. And CMA has anuloma and gotrabhu as single moments. I don't know what to make of the "usual streaming" lists. > > c: Nothing really to add, but the 'variations on a stream' are given in CMA ch4. > > Just looking at -- > > CMA Table 4.4: The Absorption Javana Process > > Initial attainment of jhaana > Avrg: B { V A M Pr Ac Cn Ch Jh }B B B > Keen: B { V A M Ac Cn Ch Jh } B B B B > > Attainment of path and fruit > Avrg: B { V A M Pr Ac Cn Ch Pa Fr Fr } B > Keen: B { V A M Ac Cn Ch Pa Fr Fr Fr } B > > KEY: Avrg = one of average faculties; keen = one of keen faculties; Pr = preparation; Ac = access; Cn = conformity; Ch = Change of lineage; Jh = jhaana; Pa = path; Fr = fruition; rest as in Tables 4.2 and 4.3 > > > > -- the Average/Keen thing where the one 'proximate jhaana citta' drops out reminds me of vitakka/vicaara; and noting 4.4's title made me smile... jhaana javana it is then! - but preliminary is just preliminary, i guess: > > Connected Discourses p.478 n571 Spk: Ahi.msaaya, "in harmlessness," means "in compassion and in the preliminary stage of compassion" (cut) > > CD V n136 Spk says that satipa.t.thaana is treated as insight of the preliminary stage. > > #99666 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Sarah, To continue... D: i.e., knowing just a snippet of words by heart but being set on living in accordance of Dhamma makes for "widely learned." Not necessary to have intellectual understanding of sets of terms and details about the names and numbers of processes and so on. ... S: Yes, I agree, However, we don't have Sariputta's accumulations and will agree, I'm sure, that we need to hear and consider a lot more than "a snippet of words" in oreder to become enlightened. --> There are lots of stories in tipitaka about people becoming enlightened by understanding a few words of Dhamma very well. And not so many about people who develop lots and lots of intellectual understanding as a foundation for direct understanding. D: Pariyatti refers to the actual text of the Dhamma, whether it is memorized (old days) or written in books (later days). ... S: It refers to a level of understanding based on the Buddha's word that is not yet patipatti, let alone pativedha. The text in the library which is not read or not understood at any level, even if one has read the entire Abhidhamma in Pali, is not pariyatti. --> PTS dictionary says that the term came to mean 'scriptures' in later usage. In early usage it couldn't have that meaning because nothing was written, but the usage in the texts fits very well 'memorizing', especially for the purpose of preserving the teachings in the oral tradition. Metta, Dan #99667 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Sarah, D:So, cintamayapanya is the province of distinguished Bodhisattas. .... S: Not at all. Cintamayapanna *without* sutamayapanna first (*he acquires without hearing from someone else*) is the province of Bodhisattas. Anytime there is wise consideration or reflection about dhammas, there is cintamayapanna. --> I'm just going by the definition of the term in Vibh., not your definition. ... > From Sammohavinodanii 1008,(translated as 'Dispeller of Delusion', comy to > the Vibhanga, PTS, Classification of the Structure of Conditions): > > "After stating it in many divisions > For profitable, unprofitable and indeterminate states, > Again, however, by the Best of Speakers > The structure of conditions is stated in single manner only > By way of decisive support [condition] > In regard to result of the profitable and unprofitable, > For the purpose of producing the variety > Of knowledge about "which states are condition for which", > And [so] since the variety of knowledge > Regarding that will never come about in those in whom > Is found lacking the Order [of Succession] > Consisting of Competency(pariyatti)-Learning > (savanaa)-Reflection(cintana)-Practice(pa.tipatti) > [Therefore] in accordance with the Order > Consisting of Competency-Learning-Reflection-Practice > The wise act always in regard thereto > For there is nothing other than that which more needs to be done." --> Yes, to be able to discuss the Patthana ("which states are condition for which") like the best of speakers, there is nothing more to be done than memorize, ponder, reflect, practice...also interesting how cintana is 'reflection', listed as different from 'learning', which is different from 'pariyatti'. -Dan #99668 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:26 pm Subject: Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika onco111 Hi Alberto, To continue... > > GCR (pp. 65-66), viz. "It is due to jhana condition that a faultless or faulty action in thought, word or deed can be completely performed from the beginning right through to the end." > > A single isolated paccaya can't do anything, Of course not... >...and I'm pretty sure U Narada would agree with this, here action refers to kamma... --> I would think so, but then he describes the generalized action of taking a step, pronouncing a word, etc., which isn't a single kamma. -Dan #99669 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth onco111 Dear Nina, N: should we keep you busy so you do not leave yet? Until next spring? --> Heaven forbid! N: I hope you stay on. Thank-you, Nina, but I've almost wriggled free. -Dan #99670 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') nilovg Dear Scott, Op 29-jul-2009, om 17:13 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > He likens it to an energetic farmer, bustling about his fifty-five > labourers (the fifty-five co-constituents in the thought-complex) > to get in the harvest; to a senior apprentice at the carpenter's, > working himself and supervising the tasks of others; ------- N: Quote from my Cetasikas (I know you do not like willing): ------ Before saying more I would like the annotation of this sutta, then I can compare with the Co in Thai. Which sutta exactly? Nina. #99671 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') nilovg Dear Scott, Op 29-jul-2009, om 17:13 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > He likens it to an energetic farmer, ------ N: I found the sutta, will look at it later on. Nina. #99672 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:39 pm Subject: ,Commentarial information sought christine_fo... Hello all In a discussion with a friend they mentioned that they had heard that 'somewhere' Bhikkhu Bodhi says that there is a Commentary which says that stream entrants have fully developed supermundane right view...or he uses the canonical term which was thought to be "right view without effluents"... Can anyone shed any light on this - or maybe even give a link or direct quote? metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #99673 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Op 27-jul-2009, om 18:26 heeft Dan D. het volgende geschreven: > > > --> What about rules for studying? Do we think about the words and > > try to come up with intellectual theories of how all the pieces fit > > together? And then check our theories with the texts? Or do we sit > > in a corner, eyes closed and try to pay attention to dhammas, > > observing how the pieces fit together? > ------- > N: Neither, neither. Intellectual studies, no, that is not it. >Eyes closed: no, no. What about open or half open eyes when doing sitting meditation? And if you don't approve of sitting meditation, that what do you make of frequent instructions for the monks to go in secluded dwelling, under the tree, in the caves, and sit crosslegged setting mindfulness to the fore? Besides, we don't have just eyes - there are 5 other sense organs as well. Sometimes it may be enough to fully develop skill of letting go based on few senses, and then carrying it through to the eye sense. To use a commentary similie: Like a robber haunting 6 roads is caught on one road making all 6 safe. Same is here. > How can you know visible object as not a thing, not a > person, and seeing as not I who sees in that way? By not indulging in wrong views, by eliminating the cause of wrong views which IS THE SAME for other 5 senses. > Just leading our daily life normally, and developing more > understanding little by little. This works up to a point, and even those who managed to become lay Anagamis did not lead a normal life. They've lived extraordinary life. >N: That it is possible to be aware right now of the present reality. To what degree and for what level would that be enough? As I've been saying, there are different levels of sati. Sati is fully purified in the 4th Jhana. If one can master 4th Jhana, then true, one can be Anagami householder or even attain Arhatship (and have to ordain immedetely). But to achieve 4th Jhana, one's lifestyle would lean more to secluded lay lifestyle rather than ordinary "drink beer and watch TV". By ordinary lifestyle, do you mean "drinking beer and watching super Bowl Football?". In that case one probably wouldn't become even Stream Enterer. With metta, Alex #99674 From: "Scott" Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: Quote from my Cetasikas (I know you do not like willing): Scott: Willing is natural, as you note, a task of cetanaa; I don't like the idea that people 'will.' N: "Cetana which accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta has a double task, it is 'exceedingly energetic'. Apart from coordinating the other dhammas, it 'wills' kusala or akusala and when it has the intensity to motivate a deed through body, speech or mind, it is capable of producing the result of that deed later on. When we speak about kusala kamma or akusala kamma we usually think of course of action (kamma pathas) which can be performed through body, speech or mind. However, we should remember that when we perform wholesome or unwholesome deeds it is actually the wholesome or unwholesome volition or intention which motivates the deed and this is the activity of kamma which is accumulated and can produce its appropriate result later on. Thus, akusala kamma and kusala kamma are actually akusala cetana and kusala cetana." Scott: Yes. In and of the moment. So the course of action, being after the fact, is a given once the strength of cetanaa 'sets it in motion,' as it were. Would you clarify when you have time? Sincerely, Scott. #99675 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth ksheri3 <....> > What about open or half open eyes when doing sitting meditation? > colette: this is the exact same argument the burns my buns or boils my blood, both of which are tried and true procedures that I have depended upon since 1978 for obtaining RESULTS.<...> I am really pissed off that you would raise this infantile issue here, Alex. Watch out. <...> gotta go but keep in touch. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: <...> > What about open or half open eyes when doing sitting meditation? > And if you don't approve of sitting meditation, that what do you make of frequent instructions for the monks to go in secluded dwelling, under the tree, in the caves, and sit crosslegged setting mindfulness to the fore? > > Besides, we don't have just eyes - there are 5 other sense organs as well. Sometimes it may be enough to fully develop skill of letting go based on few senses, and then carrying it through to the eye sense. > > To use a commentary similie: Like a robber haunting 6 roads is caught on one road making all 6 safe. Same is here. <....> #99676 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:34 am Subject: Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') sprlrt Dear Scott, >... footnote in Dhammasa"nga.ni ('5) What on this occasion is volition (cetanaa)?'): > "It is unfortunate that Buddhaghosa does not give a comparative analysis of the two forms, citta.m, cetanaa, as he does in the case of vitakka-vicaara and piiti-sukka.m. Under cetanaa he expatiates in forcible similes, describing it as a process of activity and toil, and as a co-ordinating, ordering function. He likens it to an energetic farmer, bustling about his fifty-five labourers (the fifty-five co-constituents in the thought-complex) to get in the harvest; to a senior apprentice at the carpenter's, working himself and supervising the tasks of others; to the leader of a warrior band, fighting and inciting. To these notions the definition of Naagasena (Mil. 61) only adds that of preparing (abhisankhara.na.m), the other qualifying term being merely a denominative form (as if we should say 'thinkifying')..." This refers to sahajta/co-nascent kamma condition (the blossom in DhsA simile); not to nnkkanika/anytime kamma paccaya, producing result, vipaka (the fruit). Alberto #99677 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:35 am Subject: Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika sprlrt Hi Dan, > I would think so, but then he describes the generalized action of taking a step, pronouncing a word, etc., which isn't a single kamma. Right, cetana cetasika (kamma paccaya) and all others sankhara dhammas (citta, cetasikas and rpas, the five khandhas) arise and fall at the speed of light, while concepts like 'a step' or 'a word' don't arise at all, and are much slower. Alberto #99678 From: "maitreyi144" Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:02 am Subject: Satipatthan Table maitreyi144 Dear Dharma Friends, I have uploaded a file in a table form for satipatthan meditation. Thanks to Mr. Htoo Naing, I have extracted the information from the messages posted by Mr. Htoo Naing in the past. This is quite easy to follow in terms of easy reminder, and memorizing the specific dharani/s to stay focused on the meditations. Hope that may be helpful to the practitioner. Please feel free to send me an e-mail, if you have trouble downloading the file and I will send it to those who are interested. In Dharma, ~Maitreyi #99679 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:10 am Subject: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 5, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, When we think about the story, about the circumstances of dosa we do not come to know more about the reality of dosa. We have accumulations to think a great deal. When there is thinking it can be realized as just nma, not self. Ignorance about realities can never be eradicated by thinking. The Buddha explained about the realities appearing through the six doors in order to remind us to be aware of them over and over again. Only in that way ignorance and wrong view of realities can be eradicated. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Salyatana-vagga, Second Fifty, Chapter I, 53, Ignorance): Then a certain monk came to the Exalted One, and on coming to him saluted him and sat down at one side. So seated that monk said this: By how knowing, lord, by how seeing does ignorance vanish and knowledge arise? In him who knows and sees the eye as impermanent, monk, ignorance vanishes and knowledge arises. In him who knows and sees visible objects...seeing-consciousness...the earsounds...hearing- consciousness...the tongue...flavourstasting-consciousness...the nose...smellssmelling-consciousness...the body...touches...body- consciousness...the mind...mind-states...mind-consciousness...as impermanent, ignorance vanishes and knowledge arises. ***** Nina. #99680 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthan Table nilovg Dear Maitreyi, I am glad you mention Htoo, thinking fondly of him, and all his efforts. I have an idea about the file: what if you post just short parts at a time for all of us. Then it lends itself better for discussion. The downloading of a file may be cumbersome for several people. Besides, many have lack of time. Nina. Op 30-jul-2009, om 5:02 heeft maitreyi144 het volgende geschreven: > I have uploaded a file in a table form for satipatthan meditation. > Thanks to Mr. Htoo Naing, I have extracted the information from the > messages posted by Mr. Htoo Naing in the past. #99681 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') nilovg Dear Scott, Op 28-jul-2009, om 16:10 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > Cy: A.t.thakaadinipaata-a.t.thakathaa > 2. Cetanaakara.niiyasuttava.n.nanaa > 2. Dutiye nti na cetetvaa kappetvaa > pakappetvaa kaatabba.m. ti dhammasabhaavo eso > kaara.naniyamo aya.m... > > Scott: "2. Secondly, regarding 'no need for purposive thought:' > there is no need for intending to carry out; no need to prepare or > construct an opinion; no need to arrange or to plan, this cannot be > done. Regarding 'in accordance with nature:' Seeking and wishing > and desiring to perform an action is limited by the natural order > of phenomena and conditions, just this..." -------- N: Yes, this is mainly in accordance with the Thai: there is no need to think of planning to do. > Dhammataa esaa>ti dhammasabhaavo eso kaara.naniyamo aya.m.: this is > sabhava dhamma, it is fixed by the cause. As to the end of the sutta: apaara paara.m gamanaaya: for the purpose of going to the other shore: nibbaana. This shore here is the cycle of the three planes: kaama, ruupa, aruupa. -------- You ask: ----- N: What is a good or evil action is motivated by kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa. We should not think of the outward appearance of a deed, but of kusala cteanaa and akusala cetanaa which is mental and is accumulated. It is the force of kamma that is accumulated and can give a result accordingly later on. Does this answer your question? Nina. #99682 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Dear Alex, Op 29-jul-2009, om 22:04 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > What about open or half open eyes when doing sitting meditation? > And if you don't approve of sitting meditation, that what do you > make of frequent instructions for the monks to go in secluded > dwelling, under the tree, in the caves, and sit crosslegged setting > mindfulness to the fore? ------ N: Setting mindfulness in front, this refers to those who develop mindfulness of breathing, and this is a subject that can be developed as a subject of samatha as well as a subject of vipassanaa. It all depends on the monk's inclination. anyway, the monks should not enjoy company and engage in animal talk. We can do anything we are inclined to do, but most important: what is the citta like at agiven moment? Kusala or akusala? Do we know? -------- > > A: Besides, we don't have just eyes - there are 5 other sense > organs as well. Sometimes it may be enough to fully develop skill > of letting go based on few senses, and then carrying it through to > the eye sense. ------ N: That will not work. Dhammas should be seen as just condiitoned dhammas, arising and appearing by condiitons. How can a person take it into his own hands to decide what appears now? Then there is still a big self. ------- A. quotes: N: That it is possible to be aware right now of the present reality. To what degree and for what level would that be enough? ------ N: In the beginning it is of a weak degree, but it can be developed, it can be done. -------- A: As I've been saying, there are different levels of sati. Sati is fully purified in the 4th Jhana. ------- N: Yes sati of the level of samatha. ------ A: If one can master 4th Jhana, then true, one can be Anagami householder or even attain Arhatship (and have to ordain immedetely). ----- N: Only if insight has been developed as well to that stage . ------- A: But to achieve 4th Jhana, one's lifestyle would lean more to secluded lay lifestyle rather than ordinary "drink beer and watch TV". By ordinary lifestyle, do you mean "drinking beer and watching super Bowl Football?". In that case one probably wouldn't become even Stream Enterer. ------ N: , of course. drinking beer etc. football: football can be instructive: visible object, seeing, attachment. I do not like beer. Nina. #99683 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika upasaka_howard Hi, Alberto (and Dan) - In a message dated 7/30/2009 2:35:48 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sprlrt@... writes: Hi Dan, > I would think so, but then he describes the generalized action of taking a step, pronouncing a word, etc., which isn't a single kamma. Right, cetana cetasika (kamma paccaya) and all others sankhara dhammas (citta, cetasikas and rpas, the five khandhas) arise and fall at the speed of light, while concepts like 'a step' or 'a word' don't arise at all, and are much slower. Alberto ================================ A spoken word (in a given language) is a very specific stream of sounds, having a specific form. And it does begin, and it does end, as you surely know. It begins when the first sound in that sound stream begins, and it ends when the last sound of the sound stream begins. If you think that is not so, then you deny a relationship between rupas and the conceived-of world of experience, making dhammas irrelevant to our lives. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99684 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/30/2009 6:03:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: I do not like beer. Nina. =============================== Don't let your fellow countrymen (and women) hear that, Nina! They will deport you!! LOL! [I love beer, it so happens! ;-) But I haven't had alcohol for 15 years at least - observing the training precept.] With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99685 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') scottduncan2 Dear Nina and Alberto, Regarding: Cy: A.t.thakaadinipaata-a.t.thakathaa 2. Cetanaakara.niiyasuttava.n.nanaa 2. Dutiye nti na cetetvaa kappetvaa pakappetvaa kaatabba.m. ti dhammasabhaavo eso kaara.naniyamo aya.m... Me: "2. Secondly, regarding 'no need for purposive thought:' there is no need for intending to carry out; no need to prepare or construct an opinion; no need to arrange or to plan, this cannot be done. Regarding 'in accordance with nature:' Seeking and wishing and desiring to perform an action is limited by the natural order of phenomena and conditions, just this..." N: "Yes, this is mainly in accordance with the Thai: there is no need to think of planning to do." Scott: Geez, I got it sort of right. The whole sutta seems to me to be reiterating this idea throughout. A good example in the suttas of why there can be no planning or arranging for sati or whatever other desirable dhamma one seeks - only according to its nature and conditions will it arise. Alberto has suggested: "I think this sutta refers to the non-operativity of cetana in the eight maha-kiriya (sobhana) and in the hasittupada-kiriya cittas of the arahant (endowed with jhaanas aswell)... Cetanaakara.niiyasutta.m: The discourse on having done with [kusala or akusala] cetanaa, i.e. no more kamma, see PTS kara.niiya entry (3.)" Scott: The commentarial passage seems to be generalizing to the phrase used throughout. Do you concur with Alberto, Nina? N: "Dhammataa esaa>ti dhammasabhaavo eso kaara.naniyamo aya.m.: this is sabhava dhamma, it is fixed by the cause." Scott: This aspect of the meaning of 'sabhava' in relation to a given dhamma - 'fixed by cause' - is an interesting one. N: "You ask: What is a good or evil action is motivated by kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa. We should not think of the outward appearance of a deed, but of kusala cteanaa and akusala cetanaa which is mental and is accumulated. It is the force of kamma that is accumulated and can give a result accordingly later on. Does this answer your question?" Scott: Yes, thank you. I agree that focusing on the outward appearance of a deed can be misleading and isn't the thing to think of. The 'action' is conceptual, since it is remembered in the form of a whole and accomplished by a being. Contrary to some ideas, this view in no way minimizes or ignores the reality of kusala or akusala in the building up of the 'force of kamma.' What it does is eliminate the distraction of a focus on a person doing things. The act that looks pious can have an unwholesome base, when considering the moment that spawned it. Sincerely, Scott. #99686 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:09 pm Subject: Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') scottduncan2 Dear Alberto, Regarding: A: "This refers to sahajaata/co-nascent kamma condition (the blossom in DhsA simile); not to naanaakkanika/anytime kamma paccaya, producing result, vipaka (the fruit)." Scott: Thanks for the clarification. Sincerely, Scott. #99687 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth nilovg Hi Howard. Op 30-jul-2009, om 13:43 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But I haven't had > alcohol for 15 years at least - observing the training precept.] ------ N: appreciating it. I'll tell Lodewijk ;-)) Nina. #99688 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') nilovg Dear Scott (and Alberto), Op 30-jul-2009, om 14:55 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > Scott: The commentarial passage seems to be generalizing to the > phrase used throughout. Do you concur with Alberto, Nina? ------ N: I do not think this sutta deals with the the kiriyacittas of the arahat. ------ > > N: "Dhammataa esaa>ti dhammasabhaavo eso kaara.naniyamo aya.m.: > this is sabhava dhamma, it is fixed by the cause." > > Scott: This aspect of the meaning of 'sabhava' in relation to a > given dhamma - 'fixed by cause' - is an interesting one. ------ N: It is niyamo, it has to be like that. I am thinking of dhamma niyama, citta niyama: a fixed order. Cannot be changed. The law of the order of cittas. -------- > > N: "You ask: given once the strength of cetanaa 'sets it in motion,' as it were. > Would you clarify when you have time?> What is a good or evil > action is motivated by kusala cetanaa or akusala cetanaa. We should > not think of the outward appearance of a deed, but of kusala > cteanaa and akusala cetanaa which is mental and is accumulated. It > is the force of kamma that is accumulated and can give a result > accordingly later on. Does this answer your question?" > > Scott: Yes, thank you. I agree that focusing on the outward > appearance of a deed can be misleading and isn't the thing to think > of. The 'action' is conceptual, since it is remembered in the form > of a whole and accomplished by a being. Contrary to some ideas, > this view in no way minimizes or ignores the reality of kusala or > akusala in the building up of the 'force of kamma.' What it does is > eliminate the distraction of a focus on a person doing things. The > act that looks pious can have an unwholesome base, when considering > the moment that spawned it. ------ N: That is why it all comes back to citta and the accompanying cetasikas. Nina. #99689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:59 pm Subject: watching football nilovg Dear Alex, I said that this can be very instructive. When we watch this on a screen we know that there is no footballer there. Touch the screen: just hardness. What appears through the eyes? No person. It is the same in real life. No person there. Dhamma is everywhere, also when watching TV. Nina. #99690 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk) - In a message dated 7/30/2009 9:26:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard. Op 30-jul-2009, om 13:43 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But I haven't had > alcohol for 15 years at least - observing the training precept.] ------ N: appreciating it. I'll tell Lodewijk ;-)) --------------------------------------------- Please, no pressure on Lodewijk. A good man is a good man is a good man! And, BTW, the one time at which I am certain of having attained jhanas was when I was still drinking! (I hasten to add that that was jhana and not a drunken stupor! LOL!) ----------------------------------------- Nina. =========================== With metta, Howard Dukkha All around me are familiar faces Worn out places, worn out faces Bright and early for their daily races Going nowhere, going nowhere Their tears are filling up their glasses No expression, no expression Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow No tomorrow, no tomorrow And I find it kind of funny I find it kind of sad The dreams in which I'm dying Are the best I've ever had I find it hard to tell you I find it hard to take When people run in circles It's a very, very Mad World Mad world (Song Lyric, Mad World) #99691 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:57 pm Subject: Re: ,Commentarial information sought abhidhammika Hello Chris F How are you? You asked to get a direct quote for "right view without effluents"... The expression "sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa, (right view without effluents)" can be found in the following direct quote. It is from Section 136, Suttam 7. Mahaacattaariisakasuttam, 2. Anupadavaggo, Uparipa.n.naasa Paali, Majjhimanikaayo. Th expression you sought is in the second paragraph. "Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi? sammaadi.t.thimpaham bhikkhave, dvaayam vadaami atthi, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi saasavaa puabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa; atthi, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga`ngaa. Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi saasavaa puabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa? `Atthi dinnam, atthi yi.t.tham, atthi hutam, atthi sukatadukka.taanam kammaanam phalam vipaako, atthi ayam loko, atthi paro loko, atthi maataa, atthi pitaa, atthi sattaa opapaatikaa, atthi loke sama.nabraahma.naa sammaggataa sammaapa.tipannaa ye imaca lokam paraca lokam sayam abhiaa sacchikatvaa pavedentii'ti ayam, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi saasavaa puabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa. "Katamaa ca, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga`ngaa? Yaa kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anaasavacittassa ariya maggasama`ngino ariyamaggam bhaavayato paaa paindriyam paaabalam dhammavicayasambojjha`ngo sammaadi.t.thi magga`ngam ayam vuccati, bhikkhave, sammaadi.t.thi ariyaa anaasavaa lokuttaraa magga`ngaa. So micchaadi.t.thiyaa pahaanaaya vaayamati, sammaadi.t.thiyaa, upasampadaaya, svaassa hoti sammaavaayaamo. So sato micchaadi.t.thim pajahati, sato sammaadi.t.thim upasampajja viharati, saassa hoti sammaasati. Itiyime tayo dhammaa sammaadi.t.thim anuparidhaavanti anuparivattanti, seyyathidam sammaadi.t.thi, sammaavaayaamo, sammaasati." Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: Hello all In a discussion with a friend they mentioned that they had heard that 'somewhere' Bhikkhu Bodhi says that there is a Commentary which says that stream entrants have fully developed supermundane right view...or he uses the canonical term which was thought to be "right view without effluents"... Can anyone shed any light on this - or maybe even give a link or direct quote? metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #99692 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Howard (and Nina), Regarding: H: "...And, BTW, the one time at which I am certain of having attained jhanas was when I was still drinking!..." Scott: Of course this bears consideration, Howard. It exemplifies what I consider to be a class of views associated with the pursuit of jhaana and only solidifies my own conviction that it is not to be pursued with the vigour suggested by the jhaana proponents on the list - it exemplifies the lack of understanding that undermines any argument in it's favour. 'Jhaana' occurs naturally, for short moments. This is born out by common experience. This being said, and supported by your claim of attaining jhaana while not keeping the precepts (and let's assume that this was, in fact jhaana), it is clear that jhaana, in and of itself, is neither important nor special on its own. It is nothing but a sort of mental state. The Bodhisatta's teachers were jhaana masters. He left them behind. It is clear that jhaana can be attained - and I think not as easily by us as would be claimed. It is clear that the mental factors which combine (and 'dis-combine') to give the various levels of jhaana are cultivatable. It is also clear that jhaana is not enough. Again, given something Mike mentioned to me regarding jhaana, that is, that it is not jhaana per se that is necessarily difficult to attain. Jhaana is a mundane attainment. While asserting that conditions for jhaana are specific, it is the requisite conditions for pa~n~naa with enough development to 'use' jhaana as object that are likely extremely rare in this day and age. So, to claim having attained jhaana, being, as it were, 'outside the dispensation' precept-wise, is an ordinary sort of thing. Sincerely, Scott. #99693 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/30/2009 11:03:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard (and Nina), Regarding: H: "...And, BTW, the one time at which I am certain of having attained jhanas was when I was still drinking!..." Scott: Of course this bears consideration, Howard. It exemplifies what I consider to be a class of views associated with the pursuit of jhaana and only solidifies my own conviction that it is not to be pursued with the vigour suggested by the jhaana proponents on the list - it exemplifies the lack of understanding that undermines any argument in it's favour. 'Jhaana' occurs naturally, for short moments. This is born out by common experience. This being said, and supported by your claim of attaining jhaana while not keeping the precepts (and let's assume that this was, in fact jhaana), it is clear that jhaana, in and of itself, is neither important nor special on its own. ------------------------------------------------- It didn't occur "naturally" if by that you mean during ordinary daily activity. It occurred during concentrative (mantra) meditation. As for my drinking during that period, it was light and occasional, and it was the only precept not regularly observed by me. As for jhana being, in and of itself, neither important nor special on its own, I don't understand why you say that, when the Buddha taught again and again of its importance. Actually, this jhana experience occurred before I came to the Dhamma, and having subsequently read the description of jhanas in Buddhist suttas and seeing how they so well described what I had experienced was one of the things that encouraged me to engage in further study of the Dhamma and eventually led me to becoming an upasaka. ----------------------------------------------- It is nothing but a sort of mental state. The Bodhisatta's teachers were jhaana masters. ------------------------------------------------- Perhaps the jhanas they attained were different from those the Buddha spoke of. I suspect that may be so, else the Buddha would not have subsequently recalled the sort of jhana he entered under the rose-apple tree as a boy and returned to it. The mantra meditation I engaged in was not meditation with tight focus, but a relaxed but alert meditation, and during the jhanas I experienced, whether this involved momentary swapping out-of-jhana mentality with in-jhana mentality or not, mental functions such as mentioned in the Anupada Sutta, i.e., singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention, were present. ----------------------------------------------- He left them behind. It is clear that jhaana can be attained - and I think not as easily by us as would be claimed. ------------------------------------------------ I don't claim it to be easy at all. --------------------------------------------- It is clear that the mental factors which combine (and 'dis-combine') to give the various levels of jhaana are cultivatable. It is also clear that jhaana is not enough. ---------------------------------------------- Of course it is not enough! I agree completely!! ----------------------------------------------- Again, given something Mike mentioned to me regarding jhaana, that is, that it is not jhaana per se that is necessarily difficult to attain. ---------------------------------------------- I believe that it typically IS difficult to attain, at least with any degree of mastery. The calm and alertness required are not easily cultivated as reliable features of the mind, though they can be stumbled onto, which may well be what happened to me. -------------------------------------------- Jhaana is a mundane attainment. While asserting that conditions for jhaana are specific, it is the requisite conditions for pa~n~naa with enough development to 'use' jhaana as object that are likely extremely rare in this day and age. So, to claim having attained jhaana, being, as it were, 'outside the dispensation' precept-wise, is an ordinary sort of thing. --------------------------------------------- Hardly ordinary, but unless pursued to mastery and then made use of properly according to the teachings of the Buddha and augmented by all the rest the Buddha taught, it is quite insufficient. ---------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott ============================ With metta, Howard Dukkha All around me are familiar faces Worn out places, worn out faces Bright and early for their daily races Going nowhere, going nowhere Their tears are filling up their glasses No expression, no expression Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow No tomorrow, no tomorrow And I find it kind of funny I find it kind of sad The dreams in which I'm dying Are the best I've ever had I find it hard to tell you I find it hard to take When people run in circles It's a very, very Mad World Mad world (Song Lyric, Mad World) #99694 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...Perhaps the jhanas they attained were different from those the Buddha spoke of. I suspect that may be so, else the Buddha would not have subsequently recalled the sort of jhana he entered under the rose-apple tree as a boy and returned to it..." Scott: This speculation is very doubtful. In order to preserve a belief that jhaana is somehow specially essential, this sort of conjecture is required: that the jhaana the Buddha attained was not the jhaana attained by anyone else therefore we must all attain the jhaana the Buddha attained. Is this supported by the texts? In the Ariyapariyesanaa Sutta (MN 26) the Buddha went to Aa.laara Kaalaama. He asked: "Friend Kalaama, in what way do you declare that by realising for yourself with direct knowledge you enter upon and abide in this Dhamma?' In reply he declared the base of nothingness." Scott: Of this the commentary notes: "He taught him the seven attainments (of serenity meditation) ending in the base of nothingness, the third of the four immaterial attainments. Though these attainments are spiritually exalted, they are still mundane and not in themselves directly conducive to Nibbaana." Scott: Back to the sutta, the Buddha soon declared: "This Dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbaana, but only to reappearance in the base of nothingness." Scott: In MN 36 the Mahaasaccaka Sutta, it is noted: "I considered: 'I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion." Scott: There is no mention of any special or other jhaana in either of these accounts. And so this is the self-same jhaana. It is just a natural sort of consciousness, with constituent mental factors which don't vary no matter who attains them. Were you to become proficient in attaining the third jhaana this would lead to rebirth in the plane of existence known as the base of nothingness. There is no separate set of jhaana consciousness created especially by the Buddha. He did not discover jhaana, he transcended it. Sincerely, Scott. #99695 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/30/2009 2:55:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...Perhaps the jhanas they attained were different from those the Buddha spoke of. I suspect that may be so, else the Buddha would not have subsequently recalled the sort of jhana he entered under the rose-apple tree as a boy and returned to it..." Scott: This speculation is very doubtful. In order to preserve a belief that jhaana is somehow specially essential, this sort of conjecture is required: that the jhaana the Buddha attained was not the jhaana attained by anyone else therefore we must all attain the jhaana the Buddha attained. Is this supported by the texts? ----------------------------------------------------- There is MN 36 in which, after training with his teachers and reaching all the jhanas they had to teach, the Buddha nonetheless reported the following: < I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' > How is this to be explained do you think? --------------------------------------------------- In the Ariyapariyesanaa Sutta (MN 26) the Buddha went to Aa.laara Kaalaama. He asked: "Friend Kalaama, in what way do you declare that by realising for yourself with direct knowledge you enter upon and abide in this Dhamma?' In reply he declared the base of nothingness." Scott: Of this the commentary notes: "He taught him the seven attainments (of serenity meditation) ending in the base of nothingness, the third of the four immaterial attainments. Though these attainments are spiritually exalted, they are still mundane and not in themselves directly conducive to Nibbaana." Scott: Back to the sutta, the Buddha soon declared: "This Dhamma does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbaana, but only to reappearance in the base of nothingness." Scott: In MN 36 the Mahaasaccaka Sutta, it is noted: "I considered: 'I recall that when my father the Sakyan was occupied, while I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion." ---------------------------------------------- Yes indeed. But you failed to include his important words < ' ...Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' > --------------------------------------------- Scott: There is no mention of any special or other jhaana in either of these accounts. And so this is the self-same jhaana. ---------------------------------------------- Well, then, why didn't the Buddha say "Been there, done that!"? Having passed through all the jhanas that his teachers taught him and having decided that they were fruitless as regards awakening, how does this part of MN 36 which says 'That is the path to awakening' make sense? If these are the same jhanas, that is the Buddha contradicting himself. --------------------------------------------- It is just a natural sort of consciousness, with constituent mental factors which don't vary no matter who attains them. Were you to become proficient in attaining the third jhaana this would lead to rebirth in the plane of existence known as the base of nothingness. There is no separate set of jhaana consciousness created especially by the Buddha. He did not discover jhaana, he transcended it. ---------------------------------------------- Of course he transcended jhana! He transcended everything worldly. --------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. =========================== With metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #99696 From: "Scott" Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' How is this to be explained do you think? Yes indeed. But you failed to include his important words < ' ...Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.'" Scott: The textual material is directed at your suggestion that the Buddha made use of some sort of different jhaana. This material shows that the suggestion is in error. I'm not discussing the completely different question of how this jhaana, the same as that attained by others, was part of 'awakening'. This is a separate issue. H: "Well, then, why didn't the Buddha say 'Been there, done that!'? Having passed through all the jhanas that his teachers taught him and having decided that they were fruitless as regards awakening, how does this part of MN 36 which says 'That is the path to awakening' make sense? If these are the same jhanas, that is the Buddha contradicting himself." Scott: The Buddha's highly developed pa~n~naa was the main condition for his awakening. Not jhaana. This is a separate concern. The are jhaanas are the same no matter who attains them and a Buddha does not contradict himself. Although this is a completely different question, and one I have no interest in re-hashing, jhaana in and of itself does not lead to 'awakening.' This is the realm of pa~n~naa. I'm clear that there was no question of a 'different' jhaana for the Buddha. Thank you, Howard. Sincerely, Scott. #99697 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/30/2009 7:52:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: I'm clear that there was no question of a 'different' jhaana for the Buddha. Thank you, Howard. ============================ In speaking of jhana, the Buddha said that it is the path to awakening. If you don't want to address that, this is fine with me. It is also fine with me that you think that meditating is not part of the Dhamma and fine with me that you do not meditate. I have no interest in proselytizing. I believe that meditation is central to the Dhamma and essential for awakening, but I have no felt need to persuade anyone of the same. You have your views, and so be it. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99698 From: "kjerantalle" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:57 am Subject: Re: ,Commentarial information sought kjerantalle --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all > > In a discussion with a friend they mentioned that they had heard that 'somewhere' Bhikkhu Bodhi says that there is a Commentary which says that stream entrants have fully developed supermundane right view...or he uses the canonical term which was thought to be "right view without effluents"... > > Can anyone shed any light on this - or maybe even give a link or direct quote? See the first three paragraphs of Nanamoli's translation of the commentary to the Sammaditthi Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html Also, the Puggalapannatti's description of sekhas in its sevenfold and ninefold description of noble persons. Kind regards, Ciarn #99705 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Alex, #99492 --- On Fri, 24/7/09, Alex wrote: >> S: The point of the sutta was that relinquishment is not a matter >of avoiding certain foods or sights but of developing insight into >the realities which arise such as pleasant feeling and attachment. A:> IMHO the more insight into craving & its drawbacks one has, the less likely is one to engage in them. First there is intention, then there is action. A person may crave for sights, and that craving is a necessary cause to go to the movies, for example. if the person craves for flavours (ex: potato chips) and they are available, then that craving will cause the arms to stretch and eating to occur. .... S: And if the potato chips are removed just as he is about to stretch out and eat one, do you think the craving will be any less? ... >When one has no craving or intention for something, no physical action results. ... S: Yes, so the root of the problem is the craving, the deeply rooted tendency. The problem is not the potato chips being available or not. We can live for long periods in forests or temples without access to movies or entertainment. However, what about the tendency? What about when we leave the forest? .... >>S: The Buddha and his disciples were often given delicacies to eat >and found themselves in the midst of large gatherings of various >kinds, but attachment had been eradicated through the development of >wisdom. >A:True. But this doesn't mean that anything goes as long as you do it "mindfully and without craving". .... S: Whilst we're still lost in the "ocean of concepts" we'll continue to think about realities or life or the "worlds" in terms of various activities, situations in people. Only when we begin to understand more about present namas and rupas will we begin to learn the truth about what mindfulness really is, what craving really is, what other realities really are. ... >IMHO going to see the shows and other un-necessery places & events IS manifestation of CRAVING that causes the intention to go and visit those places. .... S: Again, you're talking about situations and long stories, rather than about realities. As I just discussed with Scott, one can go to visit a stupa or a show with many, many diffferent and changing cittas. Just the worlds of visible object, sound, smell, taste and touch appearing through the senses at any time. And then, long, long stories about them. ... Metta Sarah ========= #99706 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More on Seclusion sarahprocter... Hi Alex, #99550 --- On Sun, 26/7/09, Alex wrote: >If I may simplify a discussion: >I agree that bare external objects or bare 6 consciousness themselves are not kama. >I also agree that mindfulness, wisdom and all that should be developed in any circumstances one is in, although I would like to add that some circumstances to be better than others. >Some external situations (marketplaces, strip clubs, etc) are too asava friendly and most people, especially beginners, usually forget about mindfulness and all that. The external objects CAN act as support for latent, not-yet-eradicated asavas to use. .... S: What about the "asava friendly" cittas now, instead of being concerned about other places in our imagination? There is only ever this moment to be aware, no matter where we find ourselves by conditions. .... >Example: I was looking on the internet at tips on how to study languages better, and noticed a lustful image. I had almost no gross lust the whole week (or more), then one thing led to another, one website after another and gross lust appeared... ... S: This was my point - we can feel so serene and peaceful on retreat or in the forest. But what about when we leave? What about at this moment? Any kind of citta can arise at any time while there are the accumulations for it. As Scott indicated, the purpose of the Dhamma is not to change one's personality, but to understand the present conditioned dhammas with detachment. ... >If one was meditating in seclusion with no internet and such, then hindrances would have LESS objects to focus on. Past memories are not as vivid as presently existing images, people or things - that hindrances can grab. .... S: I understand your point, Alex. However, we know friends who've lived for years, mediating in seclusion and then living again in the city and all the old tendencies manifesting once more. It's only the understanding of such kilesa (and other realities) *when they are apparent* that will lead to the eventual eradication. That doesn't mean, look at such images on the internet or go to a nightclub. It means that whatever occurs in life, does so by conditions and the realities at such times can be known. The more wisdom, the more detachment in any circumstances we find ourselves. ... Metta Sarah ========= #99707 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hetu/root, jhna, magga/path and other conditions sarahprocter... Hi Alberto & all, #99386 Belatedly, thank you for posting more Patthaana detail. I'd like to highlight the following: --- On Tue, 21/7/09, sprlrt wrote: >[The non-rupa faculties/ar pino indriy are citta (manindriya/ mind faculty) and cetasikas, including (Dhs 74-82): saddha/confidence, sati, pa/understanding (these faculties can only be sobhana (i.e. arising in cittas including kusala roots), and vriya, samdhi/one-pointedness (ekaggat), somanassa/pleasantn ess (sukh vedan), jivita/life (these can either be sobhana or akusala, Dhs 397) [The non-rupa nutriments/h ra are three: two cetasikas, phasso/contact and (manosa)cetana/ volition, and viana/consciousness (citta), and can either be kusala/sobhana, Dhs 70-73; or akusala, Dhs 397] .... S: "...can either be kusala/sobhana or akusala." ... >[The jhna factors are (up to) five cetasikas: vitakka, vicra, sukha/pleasant feeling, ekaggat/one- pointedness, pti/rapture (all the jhna factors can be either kusala/sobhana, i.e. arising as samatha bhvana, Dhs 89-94; or akusala, i.e. arising as (miccha)samadhi. Dhs 397)] .... S: ".....or akusala, i.e. arising as (miccha) samadhi." Many thanks for all your work and assistance. Metta Sarah ========= #99708 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] seclusion - fix . Sati & Uppekha is purer in 4th Jhana sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Sun, 26/7/09, Alex wrote: > And to finish about Sati. > > > 4th Jhana has fully purified Sati and Upekkha. > > Considering that Jhanas do require some seclusion, in order to get fully purified Sati (which may be required for some people to really progress) 4th Jhana may have to be attained to have purified SATI. > > Purity of sati is in 4th Jhana (see pali jhana formulas) > > "upekkhasatiparisud dhim catuttham jhanam upasampajja viharati" > PTS DN 1.75 "...with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure nor stress." http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ dn/dn.02. 0.than.html Note: "purity of equanimity and mindfulness" is in 4th Jhana ... S: The purity of equanimity and mindfulness in 4th jhana is not the same as in the development of insight. The visuddhis (purities) can only be developed and attained with the development of vipassana and understanding of anatta. Metta Sarah #99709 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:36 am Subject: Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Intro, 1. nilovg Dear friends, A Journey with Dhamma in Egypt and Turkey. Introduction. This journey I made in Egypt and Turkey some twenty years ago with Acharn Sujin, was organised by friends from Thailand. Gabi from Germany and Alan from England had also joined this tour. We experienced pleasant feeling when we were seeing objects of art and unpleasant feeling when we were tired or when the luggage was lost. Acharn Sujin explained to us that everything is just dhamma, a reality that is conditioned, in whatever situation one may be. The word dhamma has several meanings. When we speak about the Dhamma we mean the Buddhas teaching of all that is real. The phenomena that occur at this moment and that can be experienced through the senses and the mind can be called dhammas, conditioned realities. We cling to ideas of mind and body that exist, but in reality, what we take for the body or the mind are ever changing dhammas that fall away immediately and that are not owned by a self. Thanks to the Buddhas teaching we learn to understand the different conditions for the physical phenomena and mental phenomena that arise. We learn that they cannot be controlled by a self. Nobody can cause the arising of seeing, seeing has its own conditions for its arising. Without eyesense and visible object it could not arise. When attachment or aversion arises on account of what is seen, these realities are also conditioned, they arise because of attachment and aversion that arose in the past. Our guide in Turkey was moslem and she believed in God and a soul. Very gently Acharn explained to her that what she called soul was in fact a mental state or citta that changes all the time and that arises because of conditions. This is the teaching of the Abhidhamma. The Buddhas teachings contained in the Tipiaka (Three Baskets) are the Vinaya or Book of Discipline for the monks, the Suttanta or Discourses and the Abhidhamma which is an exposition of all realities in detail. The Abhidhamma deals with whatever is experienced in daily life; it deals with what is pleasant or unpleasant, wholesome or unwholesome. The Abhidhamma is not in the book, as Acharn said. ***** Nina. #99710 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:01 am Subject: Re: Not Posted: [Fwd: Re: [dsg] Fwd: Mike: Hindrances and jhaana.] upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/31/2009 2:51:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, #99274, Anupada Sutta --- On Thu, 16/7/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: I went into quite some detail to explain that the comments are borne out by the sutta as I read it and as it would be understood by the commentaries and Abhidhamma. In other words, it's perfectly consistent with detailed texts such as the Patisambhidamagga, attributed to Sariputta and with the rest of the Tipitaka. >>If you understand the objects of jhana cittas to be various mental factors (all at the same time?), do you also understand the objects of lokuttara cittas to be the eightfold path pactors? Where do the kasinas and other objects of jhana cittas, such as 'nothingness' in the example we discussed, or nibbana then come into the picture? ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ H:> Your view of jhana as a momentaristic phenomenon is, IMO, skewing your take on this. There is no mention in the sutta of reviewing. The factors are observed one-by-one as they occur. Your perspective is that while in the 5th jhana, nothing but infinite space is observed. The sutta doesn't bear that out. There, the following is said (Ven T's translation) : "Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of space — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers." ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- S: Yes, but you haven't answered my questions above about the objects of jhana and lokuttara cittas. Mental factors are not given as the objects of arupa jhana cittas. Are you saying that some of the 5th jhana cittas have "infinitude of space" as object and some have different mental factors? Surely one citta only has one object? What is the object of this jhana citta according to the texts as detailed in the Abhid. and commentaries? Or are you suggesting that the jhana cittas have several objects at once? ... Metta Sarah ============================= What I see in the sutta is that the object of consciousness doesn't remain fixed in that jhana. Infinite space is the most frequently occurring object while in that jhana, but that swaps out with awareness of a variety of cetasikas. The distinction between the first 7 jhanas and the 8th and 9th is made clear in that sutta. It is only from the 8th and 9th jhanas that (mindful) emergence is required, according to this sutta, to investigate the qualities of the jhana. With regard to the first 7 jhanas, the investigation occurs without having emerged from the jhana. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99711 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 7/31/2009 3:10:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, (Scott & Alex), #99092 S: You wrote to Scott: --- On Sun, 12/7/09, upasaka@... wrote: >Khun Sujin and Nina write about jhanas, passing on useful traditional information, but I believe have not entered jhanas. There are others such as Ven Henepola Gunaratana who both teach and attain. There are, I am led to believe, yet others who attain jhanas with a degree of mastery but don't talk much or at all about it. And, of course there are also those who doubt that jhana attainment is possible and/or consider it unimportant anyway. (The Buddha, however, considered it very important, and he repeatedly urged it.) As for "the jhana advocates" you encounter, how in the world do you know that they do not the enter jhanas, that they lack "the accumulations to do so," and they don't understand jhana and are unlikely to do so anytime soon? ... S: Couldn't the same be asked about "how in the world do you know" that "others such as Ven Henepola Gunaratana both teach *and attain*?" (my emphasis). How do we know at all either way? ----------------------------------------- Well, I do NOT know. But I believe him. The alternative is that he either is a liar or is deluded. Also, I know for myself that jhanas are attainable. ----------------------------------------- Yesterday we were having a Dhamma chat with our good friend who was visiting us and this same topic came up. He had little doubt that Ajahn Brahms had attained jhanas as described in his writings. The experiences described were so vivid and there was the cessation of sensory experiences. But really, how do we know? ------------------------------------------ We can't know anything beyond our own direct experience. So, for all else we make our best judgement call. Hey, Sarah, how do we know that man called "the Buddha" was a buddha or, for that matter, that he even existed? We, in fact, do NOT know even this. The "How do we know game" can be taken as far as we like. But in that regard, I think it reasonable to not make negative assumptions about folks' accumulations or events in their lives without basis. I prefer giving the benefit of the doubt. ----------------------------------------- For my part, if a Theravada bhikkhu has a strong aversion to the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries and to having the explanations and descriptions questioned, it tends to make me sceptical. ---------------------------------------- Your option. -------------------------------------- But does any of it matter? What about the realities appearing now? Never mind what occurred before or many occur later - there's no jhana citta now, but there are other realities which can be known and which are just as valid. Our friend has also been studying (and recently been on retreats with) Sayadaw Pa Auk (sp?). He mentioned the latter Burmese Sayadaw, who is very knowledgeable in the Abhidhamma, discourages jhana. Others may know more. ... >You would have to know those folks very, very well, I think. If you have in mind some of the folks on this list whom you have never met in person, it seems to me that you don't know them nearly well enough unless you are a superb psychic. ... S: Yes, so there's no point in speculating that anyone has or hasn't attained anything, it seems to me. ... >At the moment, my meditation practice is "on the upswing" a bit, having returned to the mantra (Pali 'manta') meditation that once before did, very briefly, lead me to "stumble into" jhanas. ... S: You were referring to the Buddha's urging. Did the Buddha ever suggest that "mantra meditation" might "lead (one) to 'stumble into' jhanas? ------------------------------------------- What if he did not? In any case, I'm back to mindfulness of the body, and most especially of the breath, the manta meditation being short lived. So you needn't concern yourself with that. ---------------------------------------------- I'm glad that everything's going well for you, Howard, but I don't see what "mantra meditation" has to do with the Buddha's teachings, which isn't to say I'm wishing to discourage it or think it any more unhelpful in this regard than so-called anapanasati meditation as commonly practised today. -------------------------------------------------- Sarah, let's be frank: You don't want to meditate, and, incredibly IMO, you don't consider it part of the Dhamma. That's fine. To each his/her own. -------------------------------------------------- No need to discuss further, if you'd rather not. I'm just chipping in on an old thread. -------------------------------------------------- I really have nothing to discuss on this. So we might as well let it go. :-) ------------------------------------------------ Metta Sarah ============================ With warm metta, Howard Samatha & Vipassana /There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding./ (Dhammapada 372) #99712 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika upasaka_howard Hi, Alberto (and Dan) - In a message dated 7/31/2009 3:50:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sprlrt@... writes: Hi Howard (& Dan), > A spoken word (in a given language) is a very specific stream of sounds, having a specific form. Sadda is a single rpa of the 18 sabhava rpas listed in tipitaka, arising and falling away instantly (i.e. it is anicca, like all other sankara dhammas), without remainder; as rpa, according to tipitaka, it can only be the object of a single sense (ear) door proccess, before being processed, via (atta)saa/memory, by very many mind-door processes, akusala or kusala ana-vippayutta cittas (depending on conditions, paccayas), as nimitta; as facsimile of sadda rpa in the first, as concept in all the many others that follow, unless satipatthna, maha-kusaka ana-sampayutta cittas arise (one at the time, and again by conditions, paccayas) and make it, (the facsimile of sadda rpa) their object, again via (anatta)saa/memory. Alberto ============================== I don't know why you bring up "sadda" when I am discussing garden-variety words. The spoke English word 'alternative' is, as I said, a specific sequence of sounds, and it is not imagined. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99713 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika nilovg Hi Howard, Not sure you know the Pali word sadda: sound. Just in case. Nina. Op 31-jul-2009, om 14:28 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I don't know why you bring up "sadda" when I am discussing > garden-variety words. #99714 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...It is also fine with me that you think that meditating is not part of the Dhamma...I believe that meditation is central to the Dhamma and essential for awakening..." Scott: 'Meditating' and 'Dhamma.' Two very 'dense' words, wouldn't you agree Howard? And so given to misunderstanding. For example, to remind you, I consider the term to be 'bhaavanaa', not 'meditating.' Consider this: SN VI 1 1(1) Brahma's Reguest "...This Dhamma that I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, not within the sphere of reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise (pa.n.ditavedaniiyo). But this generation delights in adhesion, takes delight in adhesion, rejoices in adhesion. For such a generation this state is hard to see, that is, specific conditionality, dependent origination (idappaccayataapa.ticcasamuppaado). And this state too is hard to see, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbaana. If I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be wearisome for me, that would be troublesome... "Enough now with trying to teach What I found with so much hardship; This Dhamma is not easily understood By those oppressed by lust and hate. Kicchena me adhigata.m, hala.m daani pakaasitu.m; Raagadosaparetehi, naaya.m dhammo susambudho. Those fired by lust, obscured by darkness, Will never see this abstruse Dhamma, Deep, hard to see, subtle, Going against the stream." Pa.tisotagaami.m nipu.na.m, gambhiira.m duddasa.m a.nu.m; Raagarattaa na dakkhanti, tamokhandhena aavu.taa 'ti Scott: In the above, would you say that the Buddha circumscribes the Dhamma as consisting of 'specific conditionality,' 'dependent origination,' and 'Nibbaana,' suggesting it is 'to be experienced by the wise?' Would you accept this as being a setting out of the bounds and constituents of the Dhamma? And where, in this, is 'meditating?' Sincerely, Scott. #99715 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/31/2009 9:47:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Not sure you know the Pali word sadda: sound. Just in case. Nina. ============================ Thank you. Nina. Yes, I did know it. But what I was talking about was not a single sound rupa (overlooking the question of discrete sound "atoms"), but a spoken word in a language, and that is a specific sound stream. When you say "Lodewijk," for example, that spoken word is a sound stream, not a single rupa. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99716 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/31/2009 10:01:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...It is also fine with me that you think that meditating is not part of the Dhamma...I believe that meditation is central to the Dhamma and essential for awakening..." Scott: 'Meditating' and 'Dhamma.' Two very 'dense' words, wouldn't you agree Howard? And so given to misunderstanding. For example, to remind you, I consider the term to be 'bhaavanaa', not 'meditating.' ------------------------------------------ Yes, I know, with volition playing no role in the former. We have different views on this. ----------------------------------------- Consider this: SN VI 1 1(1) Brahma's Reguest "...This Dhamma that I have discovered is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, not within the sphere of reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise (pa.n.ditavedaniiyo). But this generation delights in adhesion, takes delight in adhesion, rejoices in adhesion. For such a generation this state is hard to see, that is, specific conditionality, dependent origination (idappaccayataapa.ticcasamuppaado). And this state too is hard to see, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbaana. If I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be wearisome for me, that would be troublesome... "Enough now with trying to teach What I found with so much hardship; This Dhamma is not easily understood By those oppressed by lust and hate. Kicchena me adhigata.m, hala.m daani pakaasitu.m; Raagadosaparetehi, naaya.m dhammo susambudho. Those fired by lust, obscured by darkness, Will never see this abstruse Dhamma, Deep, hard to see, subtle, Going against the stream." Pa.tisotagaami.m nipu.na.m, gambhiira.m duddasa.m a.nu.m; Raagarattaa na dakkhanti, tamokhandhena aavu.taa 'ti Scott: In the above, would you say that the Buddha circumscribes the Dhamma as consisting of 'specific conditionality,' 'dependent origination,' and 'Nibbaana,' suggesting it is 'to be experienced by the wise?' Would you accept this as being a setting out of the bounds and constituents of the Dhamma? And where, in this, is 'meditating?' ----------------------------------------------- I don't see how this material has any bearing on this matter. Gotama awakened, and what he experienced in that he thought not possible to teach to those still mired in ignorance, but this sutta goes on to report the Brahma correcting him on that. That is what this sutta is about. Specific practices and training are not involved here, but rather the question of whether the Buddha should teach or not. -------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99717 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Be here now scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "By natural decisive support condition, subsequent thinking can be influenced by anything at all - by the recent cittas, objects experienced or by experiences long, long, long ago in the past. Does it matter?" Scott: Thanks. Good old natural decisive support condition. Very subtle and complex. Does it matter? Well, to me, I guess. As you may or may not know, I think too much. Did you know that? ;-) When I think about the Dhamma, sometimes I have thoughts about whether the thinking is based on truth, or things as they are. You know, how some views are wrong and some are right. But then that's 'view' in an ordinary sense, I guess. I think, as well, that others think about Dhamma and get it all wrong. I guess I'm just working out the relation between pa~n~naa and content of thought. You know, how one thought can express truth, while another is wrong. S: "And of course, no sentimental attachment to the place in his case. Just a reminder and condition for teaching the Dhamma. (Nice example, btw)." Scott: Thanks. I liked the sutta. And no, no sentimental attachment, but cause for a smile, which was cool... S: "And even if there had been a lot of fanfare (and sometimes there was, when the Buddha approached), would it have mattered or made any difference? If Ananda were to stop at that same place every day, out of respect and as a 'ritual', again would it have mattered? Again, I think it's the cittas that are important." Scott: Yes. The cittas are important. This bears on so many discussions on the list. It's not the forest, it's the cittas. It's not the posture, it's the cittas. And, as you say, it is by natural decisive support condition that one either understands this (as do you and I) or not. S: Different cittas, different moments, just like now! Everyone lives in their own world of different cittas. Me: "I happen to be of the opinion that going with the aim of making something happen will not make something happen, but arriving, something might happen anyway, or not, as the case may be." S: I don't quite follow you. If someone goes to a stupa with the idea that they will become enlightened or that their bad kamma will be washed away or that they'll help their family reach heaven, of course it's wrong. I've heard many people speak about many different ideas or reasons for visiting the Holy sites over the years, but I don't think any of it matters much. What's important is to understand the present dhammas, our 'own' world now. As you say, can be 'anything'." Scott: I guess I was saying that if one wants to travel to a stupa, then I guess one will. And, since 'anywhere anytime' is the 'rule' for understanding present dhammas, then, as you say, it doesn't matter. Circumambulating a stupa or not. Sincerely, Scott. #99718 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Yes, I know, with volition playing no role in the former. We have different views on this." Scott: One discussion at a time, Howard, please. I happen to think that you completely misunderstand 'volition' as well ;-) but I'm totally not into discussing this with you now. H: "I don't see how this material has any bearing on this matter..." Scott: I'll show you again, Howard. Please consider again. This is the question I asked you: Me: "In the above, would you say that the Buddha circumscribes the Dhamma as consisting of 'specific conditionality,' 'dependent origination,' and 'Nibbaana,' suggesting it is 'to be experienced by the wise?' Would you accept this as being a setting out of the bounds and constituents of the Dhamma? And where, in this, is 'meditating?'" Scott: You say 'meditation' is central to the Dhamma. When you suggest that something is central to the Dhamma, then I think it is reasonable to try to delineate what the Buddha has said the Dhamma consists of. I'm asking you whether the Buddha's statement regarding the scope of the Dhamma he just awakened to is a reasonable starting point to determine a) of what does the Dhamma consist and, b) whether 'meditating' part of it. And so again, Howard. The Buddha defines or delimits or sets out the scope of the Dhamma as being specific conditionality, dependent origination, and Nibbaana. Do you consider this to be a reasonable statement as to the scope of the Dhamma? H: "...Specific practices and training are not involved here, but rather the question of whether the Buddha should teach or not." Scott: Again, Howard. If you are asserting that 'meditating' is central to the Dhamma, if 'meditating' relates to 'specific practices and training', which I know you assert most fully, and if the Dhamma is set out as consisting of specific conditionality, dependent origination, and Nibbaana, then the question of how these are to be understood is very relevant. I'm reiterating the point that 'meditation,' as you understand it, is absolutely not the Dhamma. Bhaavanaa - mental development - of pa~n~naa is. And this, you should be able to see, is directly related to 'specific practices and training' - either understood or misunderstood. Sincerely, Scott. #99719 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/31/2009 11:27:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Yes, I know, with volition playing no role in the former. We have different views on this." Scott: One discussion at a time, Howard, please. I happen to think that you completely misunderstand 'volition' as well ;-) but I'm totally not into discussing this with you now. ----------------------------------------- Well, Scott, we disagree on almost everything. What you and I consider to be the Dhamma are radically different. So, why are we continuing? Without some core of commonality, this promises no payoff so far as I can see. ---------------------------------------- H: "I don't see how this material has any bearing on this matter..." Scott: I'll show you again, Howard. Please consider again. This is the question I asked you: Me: "In the above, would you say that the Buddha circumscribes the Dhamma as consisting of 'specific conditionality,' 'dependent origination,' and 'Nibbaana,' suggesting it is 'to be experienced by the wise?' Would you accept this as being a setting out of the bounds and constituents of the Dhamma? And where, in this, is 'meditating?'" ------------------------------------------------- Most of this I haven't a clue about. As for the meditating, I answered you. ------------------------------------------ Scott: You say 'meditation' is central to the Dhamma. When you suggest that something is central to the Dhamma, then I think it is reasonable to try to delineate what the Buddha has said the Dhamma consists of. I'm asking you whether the Buddha's statement regarding the scope of the Dhamma he just awakened to is a reasonable starting point to determine a) of what does the Dhamma consist and, b) whether 'meditating' part of it. ------------------------------------------ I am unable to answer you any further than I already have. ---------------------------------------- And so again, Howard. The Buddha defines or delimits or sets out the scope of the Dhamma as being specific conditionality, dependent origination, and Nibbaana. Do you consider this to be a reasonable statement as to the scope of the Dhamma? ------------------------------------------- Of course not. There is all that he taught about practice. -------------------------------------------- H: "...Specific practices and training are not involved here, but rather the question of whether the Buddha should teach or not." Scott: Again, Howard. -------------------------------------- Again, Scott, you say "Again, Howard"! Now you're just being annoying, Scott, if not rude. ---------------------------------------- If you are asserting that 'meditating' is central to the Dhamma, if 'meditating' relates to 'specific practices and training', which I know you assert most fully, and if the Dhamma is set out as consisting of specific conditionality, dependent origination, and Nibbaana, ---------------------------------------- Your words - not acceded to by me. Scott, this is a pointless waste of time. ---------------------------------------- then the question of how these are to be understood is very relevant. I'm reiterating the point that 'meditation,' as you understand it, is absolutely not the Dhamma. Bhaavanaa - mental development - of pa~n~naa is. And this, you should be able to see, is directly related to 'specific practices and training' - either understood or misunderstood. Sincerely, Scott. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99720 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Well, Scott, we disagree on almost everything. What you and I consider to be the Dhamma are radically different. So, why are we continuing? Without some core of commonality, this promises no payoff so far as I can see...Most of this I haven't a clue about. As for the meditating, I answered you...I am unable to answer you any further than I already have...Again, Scott, you say 'Again, Howard'! Now you're just being annoying Scott, if not rude....Your words - not acceded to by me. Scott, this is a pointless waste of time." Scott: Okay, Howard. Sorry to cause you to freak out again. H: "...Of course not. There is all that he taught about practice." Scott: Correct, Howard. That is why I asked you if the Buddha's statement was a fair representation of the Dhamma as far as what it emcompasses. The question of how this is to be known is very central to the Dhamma as well. This is why your notion of 'meditating' has to be examined to determine what it is exactly you suggest is the means to arriving at an understanding of the Dhamma the Buddha taught. And this 'meditation' has to be shown to be in accordance with what the Buddha taught. You've not attempted a direct answer any of the questions relevant to a dispassionate discussion, rather, you've gotten all hot and bothered and are flying off again. I don't like to respond to the emotional aspects of any given concern under discussion either. Sincerely, Scott. #99721 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/31/2009 12:04:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "Well, Scott, we disagree on almost everything. What you and I consider to be the Dhamma are radically different. So, why are we continuing? Without some core of commonality, this promises no payoff so far as I can see...Most of this I haven't a clue about. As for the meditating, I answered you...I am unable to answer you any further than I already have...Again, Scott, you say 'Again, Howard'! Now you're just being annoying Scott, if not rude....Your words - not acceded to by me. Scott, this is a pointless waste of time." Scott: Okay, Howard. Sorry to cause you to freak out again. ------------------------------------------- Another of your favorites. You don't make conversing very pleasant. -------------------------------------------- H: "...Of course not. There is all that he taught about practice." Scott: Correct, Howard. That is why I asked you if the Buddha's statement was a fair representation of the Dhamma as far as what it emcompasses. The question of how this is to be known is very central to the Dhamma as well. This is why your notion of 'meditating' has to be examined to determine what it is exactly you suggest is the means to arriving at an understanding of the Dhamma the Buddha taught. And this 'meditation' has to be shown to be in accordance with what the Buddha taught. You've not attempted a direct answer any of the questions relevant to a dispassionate discussion, rather, you've gotten all hot and bothered and are flying off again. I don't like to respond to the emotional aspects of any given concern under discussion either. ---------------------------------------------- Excellent. An area of agreement. --------------------------------------------- Sincerely, Scott. ========================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99722 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hetu/root, jhna, magga/path and other conditions sprlrt Hi Sarah & all, Thanks, sounds like I've earned my summer break :-) - back sept./oct.... > ... Many thanks for all your work and assistance. #99723 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika nilovg Hi Howard, Op 31-jul-2009, om 16:17 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > . But what I was talking about was > not a single sound rupa (overlooking the question of discrete sound > "atoms"), but a spoken word in a language, and that is a specific > sound stream. > When you say "Lodewijk," for example, that spoken word is a sound > stream, not > a single rupa. ------ N: Right. Reminds me of a session in Sri Lanka with Kh Sujin. She explained: E-li-sa-beth: and there are many processes going on while we hear just one word. A sound is experienced through the ear-door and then through the mind-door, and then recognizing that sound. It is all so fast. Sadda means sound and it also means word. Nina. #99724 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...You don't make conversing very pleasant..." Scott: If I may ask, what constitutes 'pleasant' for you? You seem to have found conversing with me unpleasant for a long time. In these recent threads I thought I offered sutta material and two fair theses to respond to. You stopped discussing the more-than-one-kind-of-jhaana thread due to flagging interest. You stop this one due to annoyance. In each I thought I was offering reasonable material for your consideration. Let's say I were to respond to another thread, in which you suggest: "A spoken word (in a given language) is a very specific stream of sounds, having a specific form...The spoke English word 'alternative' is, as I said, a specific sequence of sounds, and it is not imagined." Scott: I would differ with you. Would offering a differing opinion be unpleasant? We would have discussed similar things before. Would the repetition be unpleasant? I would write in my own style. Would my style be unpleasant to you? How is one to discuss differing views with you, Howard? I don't want to walk on eggshells each time I try to look at various points of Dhamma you raise - and I assume you raise them for discussion's purpose. Is that the only recourse? Or do you prefer I just not address any of the points you make? Please advise, or remain silent, as you prefer. Sincerely, Scott. #99725 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika scottduncan2 Dear Nina Regarding: N: "...Sadda means sound and it also means word." Scott: It would depend on context, though, which was meant. I'd offer that 'word' would be closer to 'designation' or 'concept' and then we're away from ruupa and into mind-door process. Sincerely, Scott. #99726 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Yesterday we were having a Dhamma chat with our good friend who was visiting us and this same topic came up. ..... Our friend has also been studying (and recently been on retreats with) Sayadaw Pa Auk (sp?). He mentioned the latter Burmese Sayadaw, who is very knowledgeable in the Abhidhamma, discourages jhana. Others may know more. > ... Hello Sarah, Your friend's remarks are interesting - does he give any links to where Sayadaw expressed such an opinion? On the contrary ~ "Jhanas Advice from Two Spiritual Friends" by Stephen Snyder and Tina Rasmussen presents the ancient practices of the jhanas as experienced by two Western practitioners. The authors, taught personally by the Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw, completed all eight jhanas and other meditation practices. Their book begins with the preliminary practices and then proceeds through each of the eight jhanas and accompanying practices, including tips and pointers for the reader. Jhanas Advice from Two Spiritual Friends has been endorsed by the Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw who carefully reviewed the manuscript. The Sayadaw's suggestions have been incorporated into the book. http://paauk.org/public/blogs/paupdate.html metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #99727 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/31/2009 2:09:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 31-jul-2009, om 16:17 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > . But what I was talking about was > not a single sound rupa (overlooking the question of discrete sound > "atoms"), but a spoken word in a language, and that is a specific > sound stream. > When you say "Lodewijk," for example, that spoken word is a sound > stream, not > a single rupa. ------ N: Right. Reminds me of a session in Sri Lanka with Kh Sujin. She explained: E-li-sa-beth: and there are many processes going on while we hear just one word. A sound is experienced through the ear-door and then through the mind-door, and then recognizing that sound. It is all so fast. ----------------------------------------- Yes, indeed. And while hearing the string of sounds, much else intervenes: sense doors swapped, thinking occurring, emotions varying - all during a single word. -------------------------------------- Sadda means sound and it also means word. ---------------------------------------- Mmm. That's part of what makes language difficult! :-) ----------------------------------------- Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99728 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 7/31/2009 2:27:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...You don't make conversing very pleasant..." Scott: If I may ask, what constitutes 'pleasant' for you? You seem to have found conversing with me unpleasant for a long time. In these recent threads I thought I offered sutta material and two fair theses to respond to. You stopped discussing the more-than-one-kind-of-jhaana thread due to flagging interest. You stop this one due to annoyance. In each I thought I was offering reasonable material for your consideration. Let's say I were to respond to another thread, in which you suggest: "A spoken word (in a given language) is a very specific stream of sounds, having a specific form...The spoke English word 'alternative' is, as I said, a specific sequence of sounds, and it is not imagined." Scott: I would differ with you. Would offering a differing opinion be unpleasant? We would have discussed similar things before. Would the repetition be unpleasant? I would write in my own style. Would my style be unpleasant to you? ----------------------------------------- Differing is fine. Lots of folks here differ from me in perspective, and I am entirely at ease with them. Perhaps it is a matter of style. To me yours seems to be a hostile approach and one of looking to win points rather than look at things together with an attitude of possibly being mistaken. What can I say, Scott? Part of what I see when conversing with you is a clinging to positions that are never questioned, and I just don't feel any degree of comfort in debating someone who exhibits absolute certainty. It becomes a contest instead of a discussion, and I just don't want that. -------------------------------------------- How is one to discuss differing views with you, Howard? I don't want to walk on eggshells each time I try to look at various points of Dhamma you raise - and I assume you raise them for discussion's purpose. Is that the only recourse? Or do you prefer I just not address any of the points you make? -------------------------------------------- As I said, perhaps it is just style. I don't have this problem with others. Ken and I, for example, have strong differences on many points, yet I am at ease with him. Look, it is what it is. ------------------------------------------- Please advise, or remain silent, as you prefer. Sincerely, Scott. =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #99729 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] seclusion - fix . Sati & Uppekha is purer in 4th Jhana truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > --- On Sun, 26/7/09, Alex wrote: > > And to finish about Sati. > > > > > > > 4th Jhana has fully purified Sati and Upekkha. > > > > > Considering that Jhanas do require some seclusion, in order to get fully purified Sati (which may be required for some people to really progress) 4th Jhana may have to be attained to have purified SATI. > > > > Purity of sati is in 4th Jhana (see pali jhana formulas) > > > > "upekkhasatiparisud dhim catuttham jhanam upasampajja viharati" > > PTS DN 1.75 > > "...with the abandoning of pleasure and stress " as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress " he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure nor stress." > http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ dn/dn.02. 0.than.html > > Note: "purity of equanimity and mindfulness" is in 4th Jhana > ... > S: The purity of equanimity and mindfulness in 4th jhana is not the same as in the development of insight. The visuddhis (purities) can only be developed and attained with the development of vipassana and understanding of anatta. > > Metta > > Sarah > Dear Sarah, all, Please provide me with sutta quotes. As far as I know 4th Jhana is one of the ideal places to refine Sati. It is funny that word "vipassana" is mentioned only 3 times in DN, and Jhana (or samatha) is mention 100s of times. The first time Vipassana is mentioned IS AFTER 4th Jhana and other 2 times it is mentioned in conjunction with samatha "two things to develop samatha and vipassana". And furthermore, considering the sort of insight that can happen during or after Jhana (see MN111 for example) I wonder if Buddha ever taught stand alone "vipassana" at all (and if he did, it may have been to those people who already developed degree of Samatha in their systems). The sheer volume and talk about Jhana, Jhana, Jhana, Samatha, Samadhi, in the suttas (and even VsM) make me wonder about what has happened to some modern teachers... Do they have different Nikayas? With metta, Alex #99730 From: "Scott" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Regarding: H: "...Look, it is what it is." Scott: Okay, Howard. Thanks. Sincerely, Scott. #99731 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 12:10 am Subject: Satipatthana & Jhana. See Mn125 truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > Scott: In the above, would you say that the Buddha circumscribes the Dhamma as consisting of 'specific conditionality,' 'dependent origination,' and 'Nibbaana,' suggesting it is 'to be experienced by the wise?' Would you accept this as being a setting out of the bounds and constituents of the Dhamma? > > And where, in this, is 'meditating?' > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Hi Scott, Howard, Sarah and all, Scott, you are attacking Howard and me by clinging to words such as "meditation" which I take to be synonymous with samma-samadhi which includes 4 Jhanas - the Only meditation recomended by the Buddha. 2nd) The phrase: "And this state too is hard to see, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbaana." Refers to Jhanic or post Jhanic state which is mentioned word by word in suttas such as MN64, AN 9.36 "Ananda, this is the path and method, to overcome the lower bonds of the sensual world. It is not possible that one could, knowing and seeing overcome the lower bonds of the sensual world without coming to this path and method. nanda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? nanda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction*1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. nanda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/064-maha-malun\ khyaputta-e1.html MN64 has said it clearly, it is *impossible* to overcome 5 lower fetters (3 of which belong one has to overcome to become sotopanna, btw) without Jhana. In MN125 the satipatthana-proper is practiced in seclusion, "then the Tathagata disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a forest, at the root of a tree, on a mountain slope, in a wilderness, in a hill-cave, a cemetery, a forest haunt, in the open or on a heap of straw.' He chooses a remote lodging in the forest... or on a heap of straw... Returning from alms-gathering, after the meal, he sits down cross-legged, holding the back erect, having made mindfulness rise up in front of him, [he then eliminates hindrances] "He, by getting rid of these five hindrances which are defilements of the mind and weakening to intuitive wisdom, dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly conscious [of it], mindful [of it] so as to control the covetousness and dejection in the world. He fares along contemplating the feelings... the mind... the mental states in mental states, ardent, clearly conscious [of them], mindful [of them] so as to control the covetousness and dejection in the world. "The Tathagata then disciplines him further, saying: 'Come you, monk, fare along contemplating the body in the body, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with the body; fare along contemplating the feelings in the feelings... the mind in the mind... mental states in mental states, but do not apply yourself to a train of thought connected with mental states.' "He by allaying initial thought and discursive thought, with the mind subjectively tranquilized and fixed on one point, enters on and abides in the second meditation which is devoid of initial and discursive thought, is born of concentration and is rapturous and joyful. By the fading out of rapture, he dwells with equanimity, attentive and clearly conscious, and experiences in his person that joy of which the ariyans say: 'Joyful lives he who has equanimity and is mindful,' and he enters and abides in the third meditation. By getting rid of joy, by getting rid of anguish, by the going down of his former pleasures and sorrows, he enters and abides in the fourth meditation which has neither anguish nor joy, and which is entirely purified by equanimity and mindfulness. [then 3 knowledges is attained and one is an Arahant] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.125.horn.html#t-4 Note the 4 satipatthana are practiced in that cases WHILE SITTING IN SECLUSION, after removing hindrances, and in the place of 1st Jhana. In fact when we read MN111 we see that insight can happen WHILE Jhana is happening and IN Jhana. The Insight practice that Ven. Sariputta was Jhanas, aruppas and nirodha samapatti - not the "grab lots of books and read or be mindful while cooking". The namarupa ARE the reality that is seen in Jhana. That is what it is. Close observation of realities happening now and burning off akusala states that hinder wisdom and bring future dukkha. With metta, Alex #99732 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 12:47 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana & Jhana. See Mn125 scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "...The namarupa ARE the reality that is seen in Jhana. That is what it is. Close observation of realities happening now and burning off akusala states that hinder wisdom and bring future dukkha." Scott: There is no way that this happens in jhaana, man. Maybe in 'meditation' though... Sincerely, Scott. #99733 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Chris, thank you so much for picking me up on this mis-paraphrase of mine: --- On Sat, 1/8/09, Christine Forsyth wrote: In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Yesterday we were having a Dhamma chat with our good friend who was visiting us and this same topic came up. ..... >Our friend has also been studying (and recently been on retreats with) Sayadaw Pa Auk (sp?). He mentioned the latter Burmese Sayadaw, who is very knowledgeable in the Abhidhamma, discourages jhana. Others may know more. > ... Hello Sarah, C:> Your friend's remarks are interesting - does he give any links to where Sayadaw expressed such an opinion? .... S: It was a very long leisurely afternoon discussion and I didn't take notes. Vince (who you'll remember) talked about several teachers he's spent lots of time with. The comment about 'knowledgeable in the Abhidhamma' did refer to the Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw, but the one about not encouraging jhanas etc, referred to Ajahn Chah who never mentioned jhana, according to Vince. I just called him to clarify his comments. Btw, Vince was asking after you and sent his regards. I just sent him a couple of links, so perhaps he'll feel 'inspired' to respond further himself. Thanks again for replying. Metta Sarah ======== #99734 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 12:28 am Subject: The 4 Steps! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The 4 stepping stones to entering the Stream Supreme! Once in Savatthi the Blessed B uddha said this: Bhikkhus, there are these four factors of Stream-Entry. What four? 1: Association with excellent persons, is a stepping-stone for Stream-Entry . 2: Hearing the true Dhamma is a stepping-stone for Stream-Entry . 3: Careful and rational attention is a stepping-stone for Stream-Entry . 4: Praxis in agreement with the Dhamma is a stepping-stone for Stream-Entry . These 4 factors of Stream-Entry does any Noble Disciple possess!!! OBS: The Stream Winner! A Stream-Enterer (Sotapanna) has maximum 7 lives left before Enlightenment! He/she cannot be reborn in hell, as a ghost, as an animal, or as an angry demon, and is thereby safe from the danger of kammic downfall! Further details see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/s_t/sotaapanna.htm <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:343-4] section 55: Sotapattisamyutta. Thread 50: The 4 Factors... Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, <.... The 4 Steps to Stream Entrance!!! #99735 From: "colette" Date: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth ksheri3 Hi Scott, Yes, that is a very perplexing comment since we all know that one person's pleasure is another person's pain. <...> More importantly, why should any and all conversation be pleasant or pleasing? Who should it please? Why should it please that person? If nirvana and samsara are two sides of the same coin then isn't it possible for pleasing to be painful? You don't know how much it hurt me to say that. why is his consideration of greater value than my consideration? Why are you under this delustion that Howard is the only person in this group? NARCISISM! that's what you're getting at. Now I see. What if I were to say that I differ with you, Scott? Just to be the pimple on the ass of progress, why can't I say that? Sure, Howard may have gastrict problems when you say that you differ with him but maybe if I differ with you then it'll be like "pulling his finger", but maybe it's just a ploy to bring Howard out and take a position that can be identified, recognized, and either left alone or attacked. What iff...? Simon says what? Now about this Tantric act you speak of "walking on hot coals" or is it eggshells? If you're gonna make an aumlette well, then, you're gonna have to break some eggs, no? why walk on them, just throw them out. good for the compost pile. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > Regarding: > > H: "...You don't make conversing very pleasant..." > > Scott: If I may ask, what constitutes 'pleasant' for you? You seem to have found conversing with me unpleasant for a long time. In these recent threads I thought I offered sutta material and two fair theses to respond to. You stopped discussing the more-than-one-kind-of-jhaana thread due to flagging interest. You stop this one due to annoyance. In each I thought I was offering reasonable material for your consideration. <...> #99736 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 3:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pull my finger, was: Eyes closed scottduncan2 Dear colette, c: "...More importantly, why should any and all conversation be pleasant or pleasing? Who should it please? Why should it please that person? If nirvana and samsara are two sides of the same coin then isn't it possible for pleasing to be painful? You don't know how much it hurt me to say that." Scott: Oh, don't hurt yourself, colette. I don't know, though. I think speech is expected to be a certain way. I just try to look at the facts but am rather socially inept, perhaps, or maybe too bloody-minded. c: "why is his consideration of greater value than my consideration? Why are you under this delustion that Howard is the only person in this group?" Scott: I don't know. Give me a few sentences and you'll be annoyed with me too and then you won't feel so left out. ;-) No, I try to consider you. Sometimes it's hard to get in on a thread, I think, especially when offering view divergent to it. Here you are, the only one left who will indulge in my metacommunicative forays. c: "NARCISISM! that's what you're getting at. Now I see. What if I were to say that I differ with you, Scott? Just to be the pimple on the ass of progress, why can't I say that? Sure, Howard may have gastrict problems when you say that you differ with him but maybe if I differ with you then it'll be like 'pulling his finger', but maybe it's just a ploy to bring Howard out and take a position that can be identified, recognized, and either left alone or attacked. What iff...? Simon says what?" Scott: Pwned. No, as Howard said, it's what it is. Whatever that is. If you differ with me, I'll differ back, I guess, and try to find a few textual references or whatever. c: "Now about this Tantric act you speak of 'walking on hot coals' or is it eggshells? If you're gonna make an aumlette well, then, you're gonna have to break some eggs, no? why walk on them, just throw them out. good for the compost pile." Scott: Yeah, I guess the com-post bin is best. Get it? 'Com-post' bin - posting on the list? Whatever. I'm responding in my own way, although you are the Mistress (i.e. Master, but for a woman) of just saying it the way you think it. It's a tough one. I can't find a really adequate way to interact these days I'm afraid... Stay cool my good woman. Sincerely, Scott. #99737 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meta-communication/Mettaa-communication sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- On Wed, 29/7/09, Scott wrote: >>Sarah: "Bound to be many different cittas regardless. We can wait til the metta light shines, but who knows what the citta will be a few moments later?" >Scott: Or before there is a 'waiting.' What is it, technically, do you think, that creates the 'wait' of which you speak? Could be kusala or akusala, I guess. The common recourse of 'counting-to- ten' is something anyone can advise or try, and it would produce an 'interpersonal' result that could look very much like kusala. Do I want it to 'look like kusala?' No. I'd rather 'look' whatever way, than fake 'kusala' to appear all pious and whatnot. More thinking, as discussed below. .... S: :-) ... >Sarah ";-) Maana, as Azita and I were chatting about... 'Why does he talk to ME like that?', 'How dare he tell ME what to do?', 'Does he really think he knows better than the big 'I'?." >Scott: I'm just like that! You guys weren't talking about me, were you? You know, like subtly? Whatever. ;-) .... S: :-) ... >Scott: I even know it's total conceit. I have the 'subtle' twist that says, 'I don't know much, but neither does he,' but, again, whatever. Yeah, it's true. .. S: Well, all but the arahat have conceit. There are also the ones that lurkers may be familiar with,like "I know less than the others, so I won't speak out" or "I may get it wrong, make a mistake and what about my reputation then?" I'm sure we can all find plenty of examples. ... >I'd rather wait for true kusala, but in the absence, given that I can't seem not to discuss, I guess I'll discuss roughly at times because I feel it's either that or not at all. There are many who I'd like to discuss with who just don't show up very often. I think I've tried every way in the book, for example, to talk sense into Alex - whatever that means - and can make no headway. More maana, right: 'Why doesn't he ever listen?', 'Why the same unchanging view?' You'd advocate continuing, perhaps. But why? I have an 'unchanging view' as well, (as do you) if I'm saying a variation of the same thing to someone all the time. ... S: And we can be sure that this discussion is not about Alex or anyone/anything else, but *ME*:-) ... >>Scott: Yeah. Who am I to think that I can express the Dhamma as I understand it though? And, Ha Ha, by the way: 'Meta-mettaa' - good one. ... S: So more meta-metta Sarah ========= #99738 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 8:06 am Subject: Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" sarahprocter... Hi Connie, #98868 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > Hi Alex, Ken, All, > Could this "intemediate state" be considered a form of "post-mortem survival"? > > Brahmajaala Sutta > 2.38. 'There are, monks, some ascetics and Brahmins who [31] proclaim a doctrine of Conscious Post-Mortem Survival, and who do so in sixteen different ways. On what basis? > [Wrong views 19-34] .... S: Out of interest, did you check what the Pali was for the post-mortem survival and check any more on this? (I was planning to do so in Hong Kong, but had no time in the end.) Thanks Sarah ==== #99739 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 8:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Alex & all, Late reply to: #98797 --- On Mon, 29/6/09, Christine Forsyth wrote: >I thought you might be interested in the response from the Venerable Bhikkh Bodhi: ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~ >There definitely seem to be suggestions in the suttas that there is a temporal gap, an intermediate state, between lives, at least with respect to rebirth in the human realm and in the case of non-returners. I have a long note to the Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Samyutta Nikaya), chapter 46, which explores this question in regard to the fivefold distinction among non-returners. I will paste it in below. >The position that rebirth is instantaneous is strongly maintained by the Theravada commentaries, but other schools of Indian Buddhism based on the early collections (pre-Mahayana) supported an intermediate state. This became a ground of contention among the Buddhist schools, sometimes generating a lot of emotional friction, but the issue seems to be given very little importance in the early discourses. Nevertheless, there are passages that suggest (quite clearly, in my opinion) that there is an intermediate state. For example, the famous Metta Sutta speaks of extending loving-kindness to 'bhuutaa vaa sambhavesii vaa' -- "to beings who have come to be and those about to come to be" -- and the suttas on nutriment say that the four kinds of nutriment are "for the maintence of those that have come to be and to assist those about to come to be." Those beings that are sambhavesii, "about to come to be" (or "seeking existence") must be an allusion to those in the intermediate state seeking a new rebirth. ..... S: As B. Bodhi points out, these are his opinions and not the traditional Theravada interpretation as detailed in the ancient commentaries and Kathavatthu. Yes, it is and was a view held by other schools of Buddhism. I wrote the following before which you and others may like to consider: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49568 Hi Alan M, --- Alan McClure wrote: >After sending off a few messages, I managed to procure a list of suttas that a certain person in the Pali group believed to speak of an "antaraabhava." We have already seen the last one on the list, the "Kutuhalasala Sutta" and have seen Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's rebuttal of the idea of the antaraabhava in this sutta.< .... S: Thank you for the suttas you gave references for. I just looked at a couple more including this one you and others were discussing. To be clear, I understand it is the commentary's clarification which B.Bodhi refers to on this: S 44:9 "When, Vaccha, a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For on that occasion craving is its fuel." B.Bodhi's note says "Spk [S: commentary to SN] contends that at the death moment itself the being is said to be 'not yet reborn' because the rebirth-consciousness has not yet arisen." I believe the following passage which Larry recently quoted from the Visuddhimagga, X1V, is relevant, differentiating between the conventional and ultimate descriptions of rebirth: "187. Herein, (a) firstly, 'according to extent': in the case of a single becoming of one [living being], previous to rebirth-linking is 'past', subsequent to death is 'future', between these two is 'present'. <71> ----------------------------- Note 71. 'Here when the time is delimited by death and rebirth-linking the term "extent" is applicable. It is made known through the Suttas in the way beginning "Was I in the past?" (M.i,18); for the past state is likewise mentioned as "extent" in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta too in the way beginning "He does not follow what is past (the past extent)" (M.iii,188). But when it is delimited in the ultimate sense as in the Addhaaniruttipatha Sutta thus, "Bhikkhus, there are three extents, the past extent, the future extent, and the present extent" (Iti.53), then it is appropriate as delimited by moment. Herein, the existingness of the present is stated thus, "Bhikkhus, of matter that is born ... manifested, it is said that 'It exists'" (S.iii,72), and pastness and futureness are respectively called before and after that' (Pm.496)." ***** Nina also wrote the following in her discussion of the Tiika to this passage (#49415): "The Diigha Nikaaya, Sangiiti Sutta, the threes, XXIV, states: The word addhaa, translated as period, is used here. The Co. to this passage explains that there is the Suttanta method and the Abhidhamma method of explanation. In the Suttanta method past, future and present periods are used in conventional sense, as lifespan. In the Abhidhamma method, addhaa is used in the sense of moment." ***** S: Just to pick up on a couple of your other references only: A:>* Metta Sutta (Khp 9, Sn 1:8) etc re: bhuta (those who have been born) and sambhavesi (those seeking birth). Khp 9: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/khp/khp-d.html#9< ..... S: I think we need to consider all such terms such as 'bhuta' and 'sambhavesi' very carefully in context. From the Metta Sutta (Nanamoli transl): 'Whatever breathings beings there are, 'No matter................etc 'That are or that yet seek to be, 'Let every creature's heart rejoice.' ..... 'Bhuuta vaa sambhavesii vaa (that are or that yet seek to be) Commentary note: " 'That are (bhuutaa)': that have been born, generated; they are reckoned thus 'They are (have been), they will not be again', which is a designation for those with taints exhausted, [namely, Arahants]. 'That yet seek to be: sambhavesino = sambhavam esanti (resolution of compound); this is a designation for Initiates [S: sekha (trainers)] and ordinary men, who still seek being (sambhavam esantaanaa'm) in the future because they have not abandoned the fetter of being (existence). "Or alternatively, in the case of womb generation (see e.g M i 73), creatures that are egg-born or uterus-born are called those 'that yet seek to be' as long as they have not broken the egg-membrane or the caul-membrane [respectively]; but when they have broken the egg-membrane or the caul-membrane and have come out, they are called those 'that are'. "However, moisture-born creatures and those of spontaneous appearance are called those 'that yet seek to be' in the first moment of their cognizance, and they are called those 'that are' from the moment of the second cognizance; or else they are those 'that yet seek to be' as long as they do not reach any posture other than that in which they were born, while after that they are called those 'that are'." ***** S: Previously we also discussed SN 12:64 (see my post #33266) which discusses the same term: Connie: > There are these four nutriments for the establishing of beings who have taken birth or for the support of *those in search of a place to be born*. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second, consciousness the third, and intellectual intention the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the establishing of beings or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. [SN XII.64] Thanissaro Bhikkhu mentions "sambhavesin" and calls it/them(?) 'the momentary state of being b/n death and rebirth', acknowledging that there is no such thing in a strict Thera position, but that anecdotal material from around the world seems to support such a thing.< ..... S: He is correct that there 'is no such thing in a strict Thera position' anyway;-). B.Bodhi gives the title to the sutta of 'If there is Lust'. If there is lust for maintenance and becoming, samsara continues supported by the 4 nutriments. B. Bodhi translates the phrase 'sambhavesin' as 'those seeking a new existence'. Buddhadatta gives 'sambhavana' = coming into existence and 'sambhavesii' = one who is seeking birth. Jim gave the following commentary detail before:>" "OF THOSE SEEKING A NEW EXISTENCE" (Pali: sambhavesino pl.). The commentary (Ps i 207) gives a detailed explanation. In the case of the egg-born and the womb-born they refer to beings still inside the egg or the womb before hatching out or parturition. An explanation is also given for the moisture-born and the spontaneously-arisen (with the first citta of the new existence but not so with the next citta and afterwards)."< ***** ***** Metta Sarah ====== #99740 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 8:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] satipatthana, time, change, sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Fri, 24/7/09, Alex wrote: >> S: Counting the time is bound to be with attachment.. ..What about >just understanding and being aware now for a moment? > ... A:> I understand where this is coming from, however I am against apathetic teaching of "whatever is, is. Let it happen, don't resist defilements" . Well aimed intention is good. Desire for a new purse may be akusala, but desire for Arhatship is kusala (though it has to be abandoned just as it is about to happen). .... S: Let's be clear than any desire/attachment is akusala. Akusala may be a condition for kusala, but the attachment itself is always akusala. .... >Passages such as "a day may be enough" could be one of the conditions that supports striving. ... S: Yes, it could condition kusala or (more often) akusala viriya (effort). .... >> S: If you try to develop deep samadhi first, it is bound to be micha samadhi, i.e. concentration with wrong understanding. Therefore the sati will be wrong too, as will the rest of the path. > .... A:> This is why I stress the importance of proper study. But not just only study . .... S: It's good that at least you appreciate the importance of careful study and consideration, Alex. Many don't. ... .... > >A:> 3) The more attention you have toward some singular thing, the less attention is available for other things. This is why full sustained attention toward one sense-door for long periods of time is much stronger and insightful than restless monkey jumping from one branch to another sort of dissipated "mindfulness" . > ... >> S: So let's take the eye-door as an example. How long do you think there can be attention to a single visible object for? Again, I'd like to see your textual support, preferably with some of the Abhidhamma/commenta ry detail. .... >A: Impermanence doesn't have to mean that there are 100 trillion of rupas flashing by every and each second. The Buddha did say that the visible form can be seen remaining for years. .... S: I'd be interested to see this quote, please. The Buddha said that he knew of nothing that changed as quickly as the mind (citta). One moment of seeing of visible object, followed by several more cittas in the sense door process and then many, many mind door processes. The visible object has completely fallen away, never to reappear, by the time the eye-door process has finished. Very, very quick. Visible object seems to remain now and the world seems to be light, but this is because there's no awareness of visible object and other dhammas appearing. During all those mind door processes and other sense door processes, no light appears at all. .... >In Mn111 there is teaching that every mind state not only arises & ceases - but stays. "Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided" "...known to him they remained..." .... S: We've discussed this many times. The citta arises, 'exists' and falls away- much quicker than a flash of lightning or anything else that can be described. How many cittas are there now as we read a single word? Innumerable eye-door, mind-door and other sense-door cittas too. ... >There is no necessary hint that mind states have to always last 100 trillionth of a second (or some number like that). ... S: Well, forget the number, but faster than anything the Buddha could give a simile for. ... >Why can't one state of consciousness in a deep state of meditation, be cognized for lets say, an hour? .... S: Because the object only last for one mind door process which is very, very quick. In the case of jhana, many jhana cittas can experience the same concept. However, we cannot say the concept, kasina or nimitta lasts. ... >If unconscious gap of cessation of perception & feeling can last up to 7 days strait, why can't one single set of consciosness & cetasikas last in very deep aruppa samadhi ? ... S: Because in nirodha samapatti, there is no consciousness. The rupas are still rising and falling away all the time, however. Even in "very deep arupa samadhi", the cittas fall away as quickly as they do now. Even lokuttara cittas last for but an instant. ... >Don't misinterpret me, change does happen, but it doesn't have to be continuous. Things are subject to change and will change, but they also ENDURE. .... S: This is wishful thinking, Alex. Sabbe sankhara anicca. They are dukkha because they do not endure. Each nama and rupa falls away instantly. Nothing to cling on to. .... >This point may require a new thread. There is a lot to say about continuous vs discontinuous change. ... S: Yes, pls put it in a new thread if you like. I only just saw your note. .... >Of course we may conceptualize and make temporal divisions and say that this nano-second is not exactly the same as that nan-second. ... S:This is thinking, not understanding dhammas now that are conditioned, arise and fall away. This is why there has to be a clear understanding of namas and rupas before there can be an understanding of their impermanence. Have a good weekend! Metta Sarah ========= #99741 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 8:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Immediate rebirth sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, (part 2) --- On Mon, 29/6/09, Christine Forsyth wrote: >I thought you might be interested in the response from the Venerable Bhikkh Bodhi: ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~ <....> >I have also found evidence for beings in this state from the reported rebirth memories of people who (without meditative experience) can recollect their previous life and death. Several cases I have read of this type report that the being, after passing away, spends some time moving about in a subtle body (identical in form with their previous body, hence with a sense of the same personal identity) until they find themselves drawn towards a particular couple, who then become their new parents. Some cases like this are included in Francis Story's book, Rebirth as Doctrine and Experience (published by the Buddhist Publcation Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka). .... S: With respect to Ven Bodhi, I don't see what such reportings have to do with the question of the Buddha's Teaching on death and birth. We can all report "several cases" of friends and family who report their experiences of God and Soul. Does this mean that they too should be integrated into the Theravada teachings? (more on the other parts another time) Metta, Sarah ====== #99742 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 7:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pull my finger, was: Eyes closed upasaka_howard Dear Scott (and Colette) - In a message dated 7/31/2009 11:53:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: Scott: Pwned. No, as Howard said, it's what it is. Whatever that is. If you differ with me, I'll differ back, I guess, and try to find a few textual references or whatever. c: "Now about this Tantric act you speak of 'walking on hot coals' or is it eggshells? If you're gonna make an aumlette well, then, you're gonna have to break some eggs, no? why walk on them, just throw them out. good for the compost pile." Scott: Yeah, I guess the com-post bin is best. Get it? 'Com-post' bin - posting on the list? Whatever. I'm responding in my own way, although you are the Mistress (i.e. Master, but for a woman) of just saying it the way you think it. It's a tough one. I can't find a really adequate way to interact these days I'm afraid... ================================= We seem to be oil and water, and so I'm choosing to minimize our discussions. But let me add that this truly saddens me and that I care about you. I see a lovely honesty in what you wrote here to Colette that touches me, and I feel regret about our relationship and that "it is what it is." Let me just say that though I still think it best for us to "disengage," I wish to remain your friend, and I view us as fellow upasika. With metta, Howard Kindness Trumps Cleverness /When I was young I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people./ (Abraham Joshua Heschel) #99743 From: "colette" Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 4:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pull my finger, was: Eyes closed ksheri3 Good Morning Scott, How could I possibly hurt myself since I don't exist and have no feelings and am nothing more than a NON-PERSON as described by the soviet governments of Moscow and practiced by countless Asian governments but in this case is strict dogma of a Republican ANGRY WHITE MALE PARTY.<....> "Social ineptitude and/or Bloodyness" as a social behavioral characteristics, HA! COME NOW, you either have a taste for blood or you do not. Sorry, in the few minutes I have left I want to copy this so that I can re-establish the continuity which I bring forth and I want to pursue this, so I'm copying it and possiting it for use in the next ten or fifteen minutes. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" wrote: > > Dear colette, > > c: "...More importantly, why should any and all conversation be pleasant or pleasing? Who should it please? Why should it please that person? If nirvana and samsara are two sides of the same coin then isn't it possible for pleasing to be painful? You don't know how much it hurt me to say that." > > Scott: Oh, don't hurt yourself, colette. I don't know, though. I think speech is expected to be a certain way. I just try to look at the facts but am rather socially inept, perhaps, or maybe too bloody-minded. <...> #99745 From: "Scott" Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 11:10 pm Subject: Re: Pull my finger, was: Eyes closed scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding: c: "How could I possibly hurt myself since I don't exist and have no feelings and am nothing more than a NON-PERSON as described by the soviet governments of Moscow and practiced by countless Asian governments but in this case is strict dogma of a Republican ANGRY WHITE MALE PARTY..." Scott: Good question. It recalls to mind a recurring, and in my opinion, spurious argument often seen on the list against a certain understanding of anatta. From the perspective of this particular view, it is suggested that to understand anatta in a way that places the 'person' in the conceptual realm is to justify MURDER or any other akusala act involving these so-called 'persons'. And then you, in your statement, ironically refer to your DEHUMANIZATION, providing the perfect entrance for my own MUSINGS. How can one hurt one's Self if this is a conceptual entity? I'll tell you. Akusala kamma. Anatta simply does not do away with the natural laws which govern the conditions related to either kusala or akusala acts. While no self commits them, and no self experiences the results, these arise nonetheless. Just look around. My ABSCESSED TOOTH - great bodily pain - was simply a sequence of NON-EXPIATION known as VIPAKKA. My conceptual tooth, real bodily pain, hence I HURT MYSELF. c: "Social ineptitude and/or Bloodyness" as a social behavioral characteristics, HA!" Scott: No, I'm not kidding. I surprise myself with the amount I don't know about socializing. Ask anyone. Oh yeah, I don't get out much. c: "COME NOW, you either have a taste for blood or you do not." Scott: One moment I do, the next I don't. Is that 'either/or' enough for you, colette? There, I did it, I CONTENDED with you. Sorry. You'll take me to task for this apology, I just know it. c: "Sorry, in the few minutes I have left I want to copy this so that I can re-establish the continuity which I bring forth and I want to pursue this, so I'm copying it and possiting it for use in the next ten or fifteen minutes." Scott: I'll be ready to pursue this. Please consider my own positations - if that be a word. Sincerely, Scott. #99746 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Aug 1, 2009 10:26 pm Subject: Far-Reaching Fruition! bhikkhu0 Friends: Sweet is the Fruits of the Advantageous: Once in Savatthi the Blessed Buddh a said this: Bhikkhus, these four things when developed, cultivated and refined lead: to the Noble Fruit of Stream-Entry (Sotapatti-phala)... to the Noble Fruit of Once-Return (Sakadagami-phala)... to the Noble Fruit of Non-Return (Anagami-phala)... to the Noble Fruit of Arahat-ship (Arahatta-phala)... to absolutely True Understanding... to comprehensive Understanding... to expanding Understanding... to extensive Understanding... to elevated Understanding... to deep Understanding... to wide Understanding... to vast Understanding... to rich Understanding... to quick Understanding... to joyous Understanding... to buoyant Understanding... to sweeping Understanding... to unequalled Understanding... to razor-sharp Understanding... to profound penetrating Wisdom... to incisive transcendent Breakthrough! What four? 1: Friendship with excellent persons, 2: Learning the true Dhamma, 3: Careful and rational attention, 4: Praxis in accordance with the Dhamma. These and the 4 factors of Stream-Entry lead to this pervasive fruition! <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:411-13] section 55: Sotapattisamyutta. Thread 55-74: The Fruits... Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri <...> Far-Reaching Fruition! #99747 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 7:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthan Table sarahprocter... Dear Maitreyi, Welcome to DSG! Like Nina, I'd like to thank you for the work you have put into the file and for sharing Htoo's messages in this way. Can I encourage you to introduce yourself and tell us a little more about what inspired you to extract the detail from Htoo's messages? Where do you live, if I may ask? Metta Sarah --- On Thu, 30/7/09, maitreyi144 wrote: >I have uploaded a file in a table form for satipatthan meditation. Thanks to Mr. Htoo Naing, I have extracted the information from the messages posted by Mr. Htoo Naing in the past. This is quite easy to follow in terms of easy reminder, and memorizing the specific dharani/s to stay focused on the meditations. Hope that may be helpful to the practitioner. Please feel free to send me an e-mail, if you have trouble downloading the file and I will send it to those who are interested. #99748 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 7:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Rob Ep. Part 1. Re: Dukkha; anatta (was, Not self vs. not-self) sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, #99196 --- On Tue, 14/7/09, sprlrt wrote: >> S: Alberto, what do you think of the following from U Silananda's Abhidhammattha Sangaha hand-outs: > > "Two kinds of truth recognized in Buddhism: > a) Conventional Truth, and > b) Ultimate Truth > > a) Conventional Truth (Sammuti Sacca): > > 1. Conventional Truth is that which conforms to the convention or usage of the world, e.g., a car. > 2. It is called Sammuti Sacca in Paa.li. > 3. It is also called Pa~n~natti = concept > 4. Two kinds of Pa~n~natti: > a) Naama-pa~n~natti = name-concept, which makes things known, i.e., names given to objects. > b) Attha-pa~n~natti = thing-concept, which is made known, i.e., the objects conveyed by the names or concepts. > 5. Pa~n~natti is timeless. .... A:> As far as I know Dhs & Cy don't refers to pa~n~natti/nirutti/ adhivacana in terms of sacca, neither as sammuti nor, of course, as paramattha. .... S: I would say that all sammuti sacca are pa~n~natti, such as "a car" as in the example given. However, we can't say that all pa~n~natti are sammuti sacca. If a baby calls the car a tree, for example, it's not sammuti sacca. ... S: Thanks for all the other quotes. How about enjoying your summer vacation on list with us whenever you can chip in:-) Metta Sarah ========= #99749 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 7:43 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Intro, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Citta is a reality and it arises throughout our life. Only one citta arises at a time and it is accompanied by several mental factors, cetasikas. Cetasikas such as feeling or remembrance accompany each type of citta. Citta and its accompanying cetasikas can be good or wholesome, kusala, they can be evil or unwholesome, akusala, or they can be neither kusala nor akusala. Akusala cetasikas such as ignorance, attachment and aversion accompany akusala citta. Wholesome cetasikas such as kindness or understanding accompany kusala citta. Citta and cetasika are mental phenomena, nma. Mental phenomena experience an object. Physical phenomena or rpa do not experience any object. We should know the difference between ultimate truth and conventional truth. Conventional truth is the world of concepts such as person, tree or animal we can think of but which are not real in the ultimate sense. Ultimate realities, nma and rpa, are impermanent, they arise and fall away. The purpose of the development of the eightfold Path is seeing ultimate realities as impermanent, suffering and non-self. If the difference between concepts and ultimate realities is not known, the eightfold Path cannot be developed. Right understanding, the leading factor of the eightfold Path, is developed through direct awareness of nma and rpa. Nma and rpa, not concepts, should be the objects of understanding. When direct awareness arises of one object at a time as it appears through one of the senses or through the mind-door, we do not think of a concept of a whole, of a person or thing, at that moment. In the conversations described as interviews between the three of us, Gabi, Alan and myself, we tried to apply all the good lessons we learnt from Acharn. Acharn would often remind us of the need to apply the Dhamma in our daily life, reminding us that each moment is conditioned. Whatever we experience through the senses, be it pleasant or unpleasant, is conditioned by kamma, wholesome or unwholesome action committed in the past. Cittas conditioned by kamma are vipkacittas, cittas which are results. Vipaakacittas are different from kusala cittas and akusala cittas. When others behave towards us in a disagreeable way or speak harshly, we may react to this with akusala cittas rooted in aversion. However, when we remember that unpleasant experiences through the senses are vipkacittas conditioned by our own kamma, not by another person, we shall be less inclined to blame others. ****** Nina. #99750 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 7:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On doing and strange double standard. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, #99582 --- On Mon, 27/7/09, Alex wrote: >>Sarah: The hindrances are only worn away and eradicated through the >development of insight. A:> But insight depends on temporary suppression of the hindrances first. .... S: Really? ... > And that is the work of Samatha. Samatha pacifies craving which conditions clinging to wrong views in the first place. ... S: Samatha arises with each kusala citta. Whenever the citta is kusala, it is calm from defilements. ... >>S: It's not a matter of "zooming in and analyzing things" into >"those 3 realities". It's a matter of being aware of what appears >now - a dhamma, not a place, activity or person. A:> And before hindrances are suppressed through and only through samatha - there can be no real awareness period. At best it is superficial awareness, at worst, it is just defilements masquerading as "awareness". .... S: if the hindrances are not known when they arise, awareness and understanding can never know them for what they are: "when there is mind with lust, he knows mind with lust". Same for aversion and ignorance, see Satip. Sutta. .... >>S: Yes, no need to go anywhere else, no need to pursue any 'formal' >activity. "Looking deep inside", or I'd say, "being aware and >understanding what appears now" can only be at this moment or the >nama or rupa being experienced. A:> Being aware and understanding what appears now - IS A PRACTICE and as such is refuted by your own admission that practice is self view. ... S: It depends what is meant by "practice". If we talk instead about patipatti (practice), then I agree that being aware and understanding what appears now is practice (patipatti). This is not a "trying to be aware and understand anything now through focus, labelling, zooming in or formal activity". A:> In any case, the tendency to self-views underly ALL worldlings. So any activity would be done with that anusaya. One might as well do wholesome and abstain from unwholesome - EVEN IF IT ASSUMES WRONG VIEW OF SELF (remember the tendency is there anyways, might as well gather kusala things to set up conditions for eradication of self views). .... S: Yes, the tendency is there and better to pursue the wholesome. However, at moments of assuming wrong view of self, trying to *do* practice and so on is not wholesome. It's important to develop more understanding of what is conditioned now, otherwise the tendency to self-view will never be eradicated. Good chatting, Alex Metta Sarah ======= #99751 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 10:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika nilovg Dear Scott and Howard, aha, oil and water together;-)) Op 31-jul-2009, om 20:33 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > N: "...Sadda means sound and it also means word." > > Scott: It would depend on context, though, which was meant. I'd > offer that 'word' would be closer to 'designation' or 'concept' and > then we're away from ruupa and into mind-door process > ------ N: The word Elisabeth consists of different sounds. And as Howard says, < And while hearing the string of sounds, much else intervenes: sense doors swapped, thinking occurring, emotions varying - all during a single word.> This example shows that so many things are happening within a short moment. It does not mean that there is awareness of all these realities one after the other. This example shows how little we know. After hearing the name Elisabeth we think of long stories about her. As Kh Sujin said: each person thinks of he Elisabeth he knows, he wrote letters too, etc. ------- Nina. #99752 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 1:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration as a Universal Cetasika scottduncan2 Dear Nina, N: "The word Elisabeth consists of different sounds. And as Howard says, < And while hearing the string of sounds, much else intervenes: sense doors swapped, thinking occurring, emotions varying - all during a single word.> This example shows that so many things are happening within a short moment. It does not mean that there is awareness of all these realities one after the other. This example shows how little we know. After hearing the name Elisabeth we think of long stories about her. As Kh Sujin said: each person thinks of he Elisabeth he knows, he wrote letters too, etc." Scott: Yes. A brief run through U.P., under 'Hearing, Sound,' culling a few statements produces the following collage: Sound is ruupa; hearing is naama. Each sound is different depending on the conditions which lead to it's arising. Hearing is accompanied by indifferent feeling. Hearing is vipaakka-citta and then come the javana-cittas, which can be either kusala or akusala. Sa~n~naa plays it's role. Thinking occurs. Thinking is conditioned by the hearing. There are moments of hearing and moments of understanding what is heard. What one normally takes as 'sound' has actually been through the mill of thinking. This is, by now, purely conceptual. Articulate sounds are caused by the mind and inarticulate sounds are caused by temperature, according to U Narada at any rate. Sincerely, Scott. #99753 From: "connie" Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 2:57 pm Subject: Re: Some Thoughts on "Intermediate State" nichiconn Hi Sarah, #98868 C: Could this "intemediate state" be considered a form of "post-mortem survival"? > > Brahmajaala Sutta > 2.38. 'There are, monks, some ascetics and Brahmins who [31] proclaim a doctrine of Conscious Post-Mortem Survival, and who do so in sixteen different ways. On what basis? > [Wrong views 19-34] .... S: Out of interest, did you check what the Pali was for the post-mortem survival and check any more on this? C: B.Bodhi uses 'Doctrines of Percipient Immortality' for Sa~n~niivaada. Net of Views; Sutta: << 76. "They proclaim: 'The self is immutable after death, percipient, and: A. 1. material 2. immaterial 3. both material and immaterial 4. neither material nor immaterial B. 1. finite 2. infinite 3. both finite and infinite 4. neither finite nor infinite C. 1. of uniform perception 2. of diversified perception 3. of limited perception 4. of boundless perception D. 1. exclusively happy 2. exclusively miserable 3. both happy and miserable 4. neither happy nor miserable.' 77. "It is one these sixteen grounds, bhikkhus, that those recluses and brahmins who maintain a doctrine of percipient immortality proclaim the self to survive percipient after death. >> A lot of talk about kasinas and different attainments and reasonings in the Commentarial section & I don't really get much out of it. I'll post it if you like. peace, connie #99754 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 3:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') nilovg Dear Scott, Op 30-jul-2009, om 14:55 heeft Scott het volgende geschreven: > N: "Dhammataa esaa>ti dhammasabhaavo eso kaara.naniyamo aya.m.: > this is sabhava dhamma, it is fixed by the cause." > > Scott: This aspect of the meaning of 'sabhava' in relation to a > given dhamma - 'fixed by cause' - is an interesting one. ------ N: I am not quite happy with my translation of fixed here. Rather: customary, natural. One state follows naturally upon the former, and they are all developing, growing, so that one can eventually reach the further shore, nibbaana. Nina. #99755 From: "Scott" Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 3:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: AN, The Book of Tens, ii, (2) 'Thinking with intention' ('Dhammataa esaa') scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding: N: "I am not quite happy with my translation of fixed here. Rather: customary, natural. One state follows naturally upon the former, and they are all developing, growing, so that one can eventually reach the further shore, nibbaana." Scott: But 'fixed' in the sense that, because it is 'natural' there is only the natural order of things and no other, and this order is 'fixed' by the nature of the dhammaa serving as conditioning and conditioned states. In other words, there is no tampering with things. They unfold as they do. I think 'fixed' in this sense *is* accurate. Sincerely, Scott. #99756 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 10:44 pm Subject: Some clear drops... bhikkhu0 Friends: Patience is not silence, but speaking & acting at the right time with a calm mind, in an unharmful way. Generosity is not giving everything you have or spending all of your time for the benefit of others, but not keeping your mind hanging onto what you have. Compassion is not putting yourself into trouble, but taking others out of trouble. Rev. Thalawathugoda Chandawimala, Sri Lanka Oxford International Meditation Centre Of related intrerest: http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Patient_is_Tolerance.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Openhanded_Generosity.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/IV/Karuna_is_Pity.htm Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Some clear drops... #99757 From: han tun Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 11:30 pm Subject: Sabbacitta-saadhaara.na cetasikas hantun1 Dear Nina, Can I ask you two questions, please? (1) In Abhidhamma, under cetasikas, it is stated that Sabbacitta-saadhaara.na cetasikas (Essential or Primary Ones) which consist of phassa, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, cetanaa, ekaggataa, jiivitindriya, and manasikaara, associate collectively with all cittas. My question is do these seven cetasikas also associate with bhavanga-citta? (2) I would also be grateful if you would kindly let me know the difference between citta and vi~n~naa.na. Respectfully, Han #99758 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabbacitta-saadhaara.na cetasikas sarahprocter... Dear Han, Brief answers while you wait for Nina to add more: --- On Mon, 3/8/09, han tun wrote: >(1) In Abhidhamma, under cetasikas, it is stated that Sabbacitta-saadhaar a.na cetasikas (Essential or Primary Ones) which consist of phassa, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, cetanaa, ekaggataa, jiivitindriya, and manasikaara, associate collectively with all cittas. My question is do these seven cetasikas also associate with bhavanga-citta? ... S: Yes, with every single citta including these. .... >(2) I would also be grateful if you would kindly let me know the difference between citta and vi~n~naa.na. ... S: No difference - the terms are used in different contexts. Sometimes vi~n~naa.na refers to specific cittas only, such as in D.O. where it refers to patisandhi and subsequent vipaka cittas only. Metta Sarah ======== #99759 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Dear Ken H & Nina, > >K: Yes, but is "mostly" good enough? We have been > discussing two > > questions: "Did the Buddha ever teach something other > than > > satipatthana?" and, "Did the Buddha ever take part in > ordinary, run of > > the mill, conversations?" .... > N: > teaching of the > Buddha and thus this is implied in all parts of the > scriptures, also > when it is not expressively mentioned. .... S: These are the words you (Ken) have heard KS saying and as being reported before and I think it's correct, no need for a "usually" before implied. Yes, I think the Buddha taught other aspects of kusala than satipatthana and knew when a gradual teaching was necessary and so on or whether someone was 'ready'. However, even at these times, I'd say we have to keep all the texts in mind and satipatthana is implied, even if not spoken. Only one path.... On the 'ordinary, run of the mill, conversations', friendly greetings and courtesies, no satipatthana mentioned, but as you say, this is the Buddha's teaching, so not the same as when we make those same greetings. So, I think, Ken, we see it very much the same way, but perhaps with a few refinements of phrase? A good topic... ... >N: Ven. Bodhi gives a note, remarking that the Buddha knew > that > Dhana~njani had the potentials for enlightenment and that > he > therefore gently rebuked Saariputta. However, in sutta 99, > Subha > sutta, he only taught the Brahmavihaaras, knowing that > Subha had > accumulations for the path to the company of Brahmaa. > Thus, the Buddha knew what to teach to whom. > ------- ... S: I think Ken and I would say that satipatthana is still implied, because these are the teachings of the Buddha. A long gradual path and perhaps for Subha this was the necessary 'step' at the time... Only a Buddha would know. Metta Sarah ======= #99760 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (36) sarahprocter... Dear Chew, --- On Tue, 28/7/09, Chew wrote: >(para.35) "One who lives long lives a hundred years, more or less." --> it is not "more or less", it should be "ONe who lives long lives a hundred years, or a little more." .... S: That makes good sense, I'd wondered about it before. It's rather like the Cantonese expression, 'gei', used after numbers which is translated as 'about', but actually means that number of a little more. Thank you. .... >Sayadaw also said, it is amazing: 1. thinking of death makes you less afraid of death; 2. also reduces a very great degree of pride, not attached to anything; 3. a very great weapon to fight anger; 4. very calm when death comes. [to be continued] ... S: Interesting. Looking forward to your continuation. Also, very interested to read the further 'Space' discussion and your comments on my article.... I plan to add more sometime... How did your Yamaka retreat go in Malaysia? I'd be glad to hear more. Metta Sarah ====== #99761 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On doing and strange double standard. sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Mon, 27/7/09, Phil wrote: >So why do those who don't share your views struggle so hard to get this across, why not just let it go and move elsewhere? That is the mystery. I guess it's because people like Sarah and Nina and Jon are so kind and supportive, lobha feeds on kindness. And lobha also feeds on the depth of the theory that is discussed here, I guess. It's all lobha, desire for something deep that will transcend the suffering inherent in life. ... S: :-) We cast our spells on them, didn't you know? :-)) ... >Oh well, anyways, have a great summer. I'll check in and bombard you with an obnoxious missive now and then, lobha demands it! ... S: Hope you're having a great summer too and look forward to being bombarded with more "obnoxious missives now and then". How about a Dhamma-in-daily-life with your family in Canada e-card? Metta Sarah ====== #99762 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 2:36 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (39) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 4. Sense objects (continuation). Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ We read in the "Dhammasanga.nii" ( 621) about different kinds of sounds, such as sound of drums and other musical instruments, sound of singing, noise of people, sound of the substance against substance, sound of wind or water, human sound, such as sound of people talking. The "Atthasaalinii" (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 319), which gives a further explanation of these kinds of sounds, defines sound as follows [Note 2]. ... all sounds have the characteristic of striking the ear, the function and property of being the object of auditory cognition, the manifestation of being the field or object of auditory cognition.... Like the other sense objects, sound has as its proximate cause the four Great Elements. No matter what sound we hear, it has a degree of loudness and it "strikes the ear". Its characteristic can be experienced without the need to think about it. We may hear the sound of a bird and it seems that we know at once the origin of the sound. When we know the origin of the sound it is not hearing, but thinking of a concept. However, the thinking is conditioned by the hearing. It seems that we can hear different sounds at a time, for example when a chord is played on the piano. When we recognize the different notes of a chord it is not hearing but thinking. When awareness arises, one reality at a time can be known as it is. [Note 2] See also Visuddhimagga XIV, 55. ------------------------------ with metta, Han #99763 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 2:45 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (39) hantun1 Dear Nina (and all), The text: No matter what sound we hear, it has a degree of loudness and it "strikes the ear". Its characteristic can be experienced without the need to think about it. We may hear the sound of a bird and it seems that we know at once the origin of the sound. When we know the origin of the sound it is not hearing, but thinking of a concept. However, the thinking is conditioned by the hearing. Han: Thank you very much, Nina. I have to keep reminding myself about this fact. Respectfully, Han #99764 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 3:19 am Subject: Re: Satipatthan Table hantun1 Dear Maitreyi, Nina, Sarah, and all, I was thinking how Maitreyi would present Satipatthana Table in serial, as requested by Nina. It may not be easy to serialize the tables. As an experiment, I will try to present the first part of the table as follows. -------------------- I. kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana or 'contemplations on body' 261 contemplations on body There are 14 contemplations on body and there are 261 sub-contemplations on body. 1) 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 2) 15 contemplations on 'posture' 3) 63 contemplations on 'detail movement' 4) 99 contemplations on 'body part' 5) 15 contemplations on 'body element' 6) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 1' 7) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 2' 8) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 3' 9) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 4' 10) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 5' 11) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 6' 12) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 7' 13) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 8' 14) 6 contemplations on 'body foulness at stage 9' --261 contemplations on body ------------------------------ (1) 15 contemplations on 'breathing' 1. The meditator contemplates on 'ruupa' that arise from long breathing of his own. There will be more ruupas than in short breathing. Ruupas here are all material phenomena and they are movements, touch, temperature. He may notice any movements related to breathing. These include movement of breathing air through nostril, movement of nose-hairs, movement of nostrils, movement of chest, expanding movement of arms when chest expands, movement of abdomen. In summary this contemplation is 'contemplation on long breathing'. This may also invlove contemplation on 'tenseness-looseness', warmth- cold, fine-air-touch and so on. Contemplation is not on 'the word' 'long breath' or 'long breathing' or 'I am breathing long'. Contemplation is on 'material phenomena' or ruupa. But this contemplation is on 'ruupas that arise from long breathing'. -------------------- 2. The meditator contemplates on 'ruupa' that arise from short breathing of his own and the same applies as in long breathing. -------------------- 3. The meditators contemplates on 'all ruupas' that arise from breathing activities. This happens when he becomes more mature at breathing meditation. He sees very fine breathing, which seems almost undetectable even though more mature wisdom can see such finebreathing. He senses all ruupas arise from breathing activities (sabba kaaya pa.tisa.mvedii). This contemplation is not on 'hair' that does not move or not related to breathing, not on nails that do not invlove in breathing, not on palms and soles that do not involvein breathing. Sabba means 'all'. Kaaya means 'body' 'combination'. Here it just means 'whole physical body'. But the implication is on those that involve in breathing activities. The meditator is just seeing 'ruupa'or material phenomena that arise from breathing activities. Pa.ti here has the meaning of 'strike' 'touch' 'hit' and sa.m means 'well'. So pa.tisa.m means 'touching well'. Vedati means 'feel'. Sabba-kaayapa.tisa.mvedii means 'strikingly-well-feeling whole body that involve in breathing activities'. He thus trains 'I will breathe in/out sensitive to the whole body'. Here 'the whole body' means 'all ruupas or material phenomena that arise from breathing activity'. I say thisbecause the heading is anapana pabba or breathing section. And meditators have to contemplate on naama or ruupa. Here it is ruupa. These ruupas are 'all ruupas that arise from breathing activities'. This does not happen to beginners in earlier stage of theirmeditation. But when they become proficient in breathing meditation then they become able to sense all ruupas that arise from breathing acitvities. When this happen, breathing becomes very subtle. This leads to 4th contemplation. -------------------- 4. The meditator contemplates on 'all ruupas that have arisen from tranquilized activities of breathing'. This also happen to meditators who become mature because of repeated practice. In all these 4 contemplations, the meditator contemplates on ruupa and not on any other things. So he is free from abhijjhaa(lobha or attachment) and domanassa (dosa or hatred) and he is not dependingon clinging to anything and temporarily liberated. -------------------- When these 4 contemplations become at proficient level then the meditator sometimes clearly see that 'these ruupas will be arising in others when they are breathing long (5), they are breathing short (6), when they become to know all ruupas arise from their breathing activities (7), when they know 'all ruupas arise from tranquilized activities of breathing (8). -------------------- And sometimes he perceives ruupas in his body and sometimes ruupas in others (9,10,11,12). -------------------- The breathing mind, the entrance to lungs that is nostrils, breathing apparatus that is chest and chest muscles, abdomen and abdomen muscles are all 'origination of breathing' or 'samudaya-dhamma'. The meditator when he become mature he realises these and he contemplates on these causes (13). Sometimes he perceives that when the breathing mind vanishes, or when there is no nostrils, or no chest-abdomen'there will be dissolution of 'those ruupas that arise from breathing activities' or vaya-dhamma (14). Sometimes he perceives that there are origination and there are dissolution (15). ------------------------------ Han: Perhaps, Maitreyi may have a better idea to present it. Kind regards, Han #99765 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 5:48 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Intro, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn would emphasize that we should not think of ourselves, and that we become less selfish by paying more attention to the needs of others. This is a simple advice, but it is very basic. We cling to ourselves all the time, but the aim of the teachings is detachment from the idea of self. If we are always selfish, how can we become detached? I began to understand that there are countless moments of thinking of ourselves. Even when we want to have more understanding of realities, we are bound to think of a self who desires this. When kusala citta arises, there is no clinging, but very shortly after kusala citta has fallen away we are likely to cling to an idea of my kusala. I am most grateful to Acharn for pointing out to us time and again that we should understand our life at this very moment. What she explained is completely in conformity with the Buddhas teachings. Because of listening to the Dhamma, we acquire intellectual understanding of what the Buddha taught and then we gradually learn to verify in our life the truth of the phenomena that occur so that there can be direct understanding. The eightfold Path taught by the Buddha is the development of direct understanding of whatever reality appears in daily life. Acharn reminded us that we should consider what dhamma is: reality appearing at this very moment in our daily life. When we study the teachings we should not forget that also studying and considering what we read are conditioned dhammas. We listened to the Dhamma in the past and this conditions our interest today. The Buddha taught the conditions for all realities of our life so that we would understand that realities are beyond control, non-self. His teaching is subtle and intricate and we should study all details. Understanding of nma and rpa is difficult and it can only be learnt very gradually. The Path the Buddha taught should be developed with detachment from the idea of self at the very beginning. Eventually the development of understanding will lead to the eradication of clinging to the idea of self. ******* Nina. #99766 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (33) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Nina, Connie, Chew & all, I'm planning to start chipping in on some of the Space-related messages sent while I was away. (Well, I'm still away, but have internet now at least). Pls ignore any messages which are mere repeitition of points you've all made - it just helps me to reflect out loud. H:>> I wonder why Ven Buddhaghosa did not use the word aakaasa instead > of vivara? Or, is vivara synonymous with aakaasa? [2. Ear-consciousness arises due to ear, sound, aperture and attention. (sota sadda vivara manasikaare pa.ticca uppajjati sota-vi~n~naa.na.m)] -------- >N: I think that there is a close connection. If there were no vivara, aperture, how could there be aakaasa as one of the conditions for hearing sound? I find the story of the monk reciting in a cave a good simile. That cave resounds so that the sound of his recitation is well heard. The cave of the ear is well suited, it cannot be compared to space of the nostrils mentioned by you, these do not help the sound to come through. These are just my own elaborations and not so important. ... S: Yes, I don't think vivara and aakaasa are synonyms. It is referring, as I understand to the hole, the cavity, the opening of the ear, not to the aakaasa within it. In this Dhp quote (sorry, no ref), it even translates vivara as cave in context, referring to the 'cavity' in the mountain: "Na antalikkhe na samuddamajjhe na pabbataana.m vivara.m pavissa Na vijjatii so jagatippadeso yattha.t.thito mucceyya paapakammaa." "Not in the air, nor in the middle of the ocean, Nor having entered a cave in the mountains, Nor in any region of the world is a spot to be found, Staying where, one would escape evil kamma." I wrote: "The Atthasalini (PTS transl, under 'Derived Material Qualities' under the definition of space-element)], also mentions the manifestation of a)'showing their limits', and b)'state of being untouched by the four great essentials and of being their holes and openings as manifestation,'. It says that by 'untouched by the four great essentials' what is meant is 'the unentangled space-element untouched by these is stated', such as in a vacuum (vivara) or hole or the sky. " S: By "vacuum (vivara)", I take it to be referring to the vacuum or opening within the vivara. Elsewhere in the suttas, we find quotes like this from Maharahulavada Sutta: "the cavities of the ear and nose, the mouth aperture, that whereby one swallows what is eaten" S: The aperture is the opening of the mouth, not the space within, as I understand. However, with no aperture, there could be no 'open' space within as so as Nina said, a close connection. Metta, Sarah ========= #99767 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthan Table nilovg Dear Han and Maitreyi, thank you for taking all the trouble going over these tables. To me it seems to involve a lot of reasoning and thinking, and to be honest, tables do not help me personally to be aware of the reality now. Is this not the goal? What does Maitreyi think? Nina. Op 3-aug-2009, om 5:19 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I was thinking how Maitreyi would present Satipatthana Table in > serial, as requested by Nina. > It may not be easy to serialize the tables. > As an experiment, I will try to present the first part of the table > as follows. > > -------------------- > > I. kaayaanupassanaa satipatthaana or 'contemplations on body' > > 261 contemplations on body > There are 14 contemplations on body and there are 261 sub- > contemplations on body. #99768 From: "kjerantalle" Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 7:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: ,Commentarial information sought kjerantalle Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Ciaran, welcome to DSG! You're obviously familiar with the texts and I > look forward to discussions with you. May I ask you where you live and > encourage you to give us a short (or long) introduction? Thank you for the kind welcome. So here is a short introduction. My name is Kjern Talle, but I prefer to write it the Irish Gaelic way, Ciarn, since I'm lazy and this requires fewer strokes of the pen. I am a Faroese national and was born on Fugloy, one of the smallest of the inhabited Faroe Islands. I moved to Reykjavk in 1992 in order to study classics at the University of Iceland. Now I live in Chiang Mai, Thailand, where I make my living teaching medical Latin to Thai pharmacology students. In my Iceland student days I was quite interested in New Age phenomena and would attend Sunday afternoon lectures at Reykjavk Theosophical Society. One afternoon the guest speaker was the English monk Phra Dhammanando, whom I believe you know. I have forgotten what his talk concerned, but it made a very good impression on me and afterwards I became one of the 'regulars' at his Buddhist centre in Hafnarfjrdur. After graduating I took temporary ordination as a samanera with Dhammanando and then spent a year with him, mostly pursuing Pali and Sutta study. As for Abhidhamma, my study of it so far has consisted of a two-week introductory course taught by the Thai layman Acharn Wannasit, a little reading of PTS translations (Compendium of Philosophy, Book of Analysis, etc.) and lots of lengthy telephone chats with Dhammanando whenever I'm in doubt about something. As Dhammananado is presently away on retreat he suggested that I join the Dhamma Wheel forum and Dhamma Study Group to bring up any questions that might arise. I guess that's enough for now. Kind regards, Ciarn #99769 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 7:42 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I have reached my own understanding based on what Nina had said. >N: I think that there is a close connection. If there were no vivara, aperture, how could there be aakaasa as one of the conditions for hearing sound? I find the story of the monk reciting in a cave a good simile. That cave resounds so that the sound of his recitation is well heard. The cave of the ear is well suited, it cannot be compared to space of the nostrils mentioned by you, these do not help the sound to come through. These are just my own elaborations and not so important. Han: I take both vivara (as aperture) and aakaasa (as cave or cavity) are essential in the process of hearing. The ear aperture is different from other apertures of the body. The ear aperture with the external ear flap catches the sound. It is very much pronounced in the animals like cats when their ears actually move towards the direction of the sound. In this sense, the ear aperture is very much different from other apertures like nose aperture or mouth aperture. Secondly, the sound then travels along the ear canal to the middle ear and internal ear. This ear canal is also the cave or cavity that is unique for the ear. Right or wrong, that is my understanding, and I will stick to it. I am not prepared to think it again and come up with something different. But I will have no objection if others think differently. Respectfully, Han #99770 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 7:51 am Subject: Re: Satipatthan Table hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: thank you for taking all the trouble going over these tables. To me it seems to involve a lot of reasoning and thinking, and to be honest, tables do not help me personally to be aware of the reality now. Is this not the goal? What does Maitreyi think? Han: As far as I am concerned, I have nothing in my mind. I was only experimenting how it would look like if the tables were to be presented in series. I can just happily forget about it all together. Respectfully, Han #99771 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 7:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabbacitta-saadhaara.na cetasikas nilovg Dear Han, Op 3-aug-2009, om 1:30 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > (1) In Abhidhamma, under cetasikas, it is stated that Sabbacitta- > saadhaara.na cetasikas (Essential or Primary Ones) which consist of > phassa, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, cetanaa, ekaggataa, jiivitindriya, and > manasikaara, associate collectively with all cittas. > My question is do these seven cetasikas also associate with > bhavanga-citta? ------- N: Sarah answered this and I can add something. The seven universals are indispensable for each citta. Also the bhavanga-citta experiences an object, namely the same object as the patisandhicitta, and thus, it needs phassa to contact the object. It needs concentration to focus on the object, it needs all the universals that assist the citta to know the object. The bhavangacitta is accompanied, in addition to the universals, by other cetasikas, depending on the type of bhavanga-citta. If one is born a human without sobhana hetus, the patisandhicitta and also the bhavanga-citta are the same type as the ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta that is santiira.na-citta. It is accompanied by the particulars of vitakka, vicaara, adhimokkha (decision). If one is born with two sobhana hetus or three sobhana hetus, there are more cetasikas accompanying the bhavanga-citta. ---------- > > H:(2) I would also be grateful if you would kindly let me know the > difference between citta and vi~n~naa.na. ------- N: They are the same, as Sarah said. Mano is also the same in meaning. ------ Nina. #99772 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 7:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (33) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- On Mon, 3/8/09, han tun wrote: >The ear aperture is different from other apertures of the body. The ear aperture with the external ear flap catches the sound. It is very much pronounced in the animals like cats when their ears actually move towards the direction of the sound. In this sense, the ear aperture is very much different from other apertures like nose aperture or mouth aperture. ... S: Exactly. This is why the ear aperture is given as an essential condition for hearing. Metta Sarah ======= #99773 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 8:05 am Subject: Re:Sabbacitta-saadhaara.na cetasikas hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, I thank both of you very much. I have the same understanding, but I asked to be sure. The additional information about bhavanga-citta by Nina is very, very helpful for me. Respectfully, Han #99774 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ,Commentarial information sought sarahprocter... Hi Ciaran, This is a great introduction and you're our first Faroese member that I know of! At least with your background, you should have no problems with the Pali! I'm so glad to hear of the assistance Ven Dhammanando has given you and I remember when he lived in Iceland. Once in Bangkok we met another man from Iceland (with a Thai wife) who'd also been studying with Ven D. there. Please share any of your Abhi studies and ask any questions anytime. You may also like to take a look sometime at the "useful posts" section in the DSG files which has the numbers of messages from the archives saved under topics. Just click on any of these numbers. I greatly look forward to further discussions with you. Metta Sarah --- On Mon, 3/8/09, kjerantalle wrote: >Thank you for the kind welcome. So here is a short introduction. My name is Kjern Talle, but I prefer to write it the Irish Gaelic way, Ciarn, since I'm lazy and this requires fewer strokes of the pen. <...> .... #99775 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 8:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (33) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Nina & Chew, --- On Sun, 12/7/09, han tun wrote: >I have studied the definition of aakaasa-dhaatu as per Visuddhimagga XIV, 63 (1) The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Ruupa-pariccheda lakkha.naa aakaasa-dhaatu. (2) Its function is to display the boundaries of matter. Ruupa-pariyatappaka asana rasaa. [pariyanta = limit] [pakaasana = to display] (3) It is manifested as the confines of matter; or it is manifested as untouchedness, as the state of gaps and apertures. Ruupa-mariyaadaa- paccupa.t. thaanaa. Asamphu.t.thbhaavac chiddavivarabhaa va-paccupa. t.thaanaa. [mariyaadaa = boundary, limit] [asamphu.t.tha bhaava = state of untouchedness] [chidda vivara bhaava = state of gaps and apertures] .... S: This second manifestation is important: "as the state of gaps and apertures (chidda vivara bhaava) - the space within the gaps and apertures. ... >(4) Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. Paricchinnaruupa- pada.t.thaanaa. Han: There is a proximate cause for aakaasa-dhaatu as per above definition. But in chapter 7 of your book, Note 5 states that: [Space in the ear or the nose is space that is not conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition; it is unconditioned ruupa.] ... S: Yes, the proximate cause above is just for the first kind of aakaasa ruupa as is the characteristic and function given above. ... >I was about to ask you how I can understand these two different statements. But just now, I read your reply to Chew: >N: I used to think that, but in Bgk I discussed with Khun Sujin and Sarah about this difficult subject. The space that is pariccheda ruupa, separating the different groups of ruupa is a conditioned ruupa. But there is also space all around, space we walk through, and this is not a concept as I understood from this discussion. It is not the same as pariccheda ruupa separating groups of ruupas of the body, that can be conditioned, by kamma, citta, nutrition or temperature. I asked about space in the ear etc. and also this is not a concept, but real space. Sarah made a specific study and it is good if she can refere to this. She referred to different texts. ... S: This is correct. I think Nina subsequently referred to what I wrote. It is a difficult subject which is why I tried to clarify my thoughts in the 'study'. Metta Sarah ========== #99776 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 8:33 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (33) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I thank you very much for your further clarification, which is very clear. I was more interested in aakaasa that is involved in the process of hearing. The aakaasa in its broader term, with questions of whether it is unconditioned ruupa or not, is too much for me. During my remaining days, I prefer to study the easier ones and leave the difficult ones to you, younger people:>) Respectfully, Han #99777 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 9:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (33) sarahprocter... Dear Chew (Nina, Han & Connie), #99088 --- On Sun, 12/7/09, Chew wrote: >>Nina: The space that is pariccheda ruupa, separating the different groups of ruupa is a conditioned ruupa. --- >Chew: The space here you are referring to aakaasa-dhaatu. So, it is a conditioned ruupa. But, it does not arise directly from the four main causes of matter (kammaja, cittaja, utuja, and aahaaraja), solely exist as modalities or attributes of concretely produced matter (nipphannaruupa) . --- S: Yes .... >>Nina: But there is also space all around, space we walk through, and this is not a concept as I understood from this discussion. It is not the same as pariccheda ruupa separating groups of ruupas of the body, that can be conditioned, by kamma, citta, nutrition or temperature. I asked about space in the ear etc. and also this is not a concept, but real space. --- >Chew: When you mentioned "this is not a concept", which means it definitely fall into one of the ultimate realities (citta, cetasika, ruupa, or nibbaana). .... S: Yes, it is rupa. .... >C:Since it is "space all around, space we walk through", then it is not only the space-elements (aakaasa-dhaatu) that fill up all the "space". What are they? [Tatta suddhat.t.haka. m saddhnavaka~ n caa ti dve utusamut.t.haana- kalaapaa bahiddhaa pi labbhanti. Avasesaa pana sabbe pi ajjhattikam eva.] Of them, the two material groups produced by temperature – the pure octad and the sound nonad – are found externally too. All the rest are strictly internal. .... S: That's right, not only aakaasa-dhaatu, also particles, kalapas of rupas such as sound nonad as you say. .... >Earlier, I defined "space in the ear", "space of the nostrils" or "space in the cave" as "space in conventional sense", which is concept. It is just like, in conventional sense "human beings" are concept; in ultimate sense, it is naama-ruupa. .... S: When we say "space in the ear", we're using concepts, but there is the aakaasa ruupa in the cavity, within the space of the ruupas we call the ear. ... >Other than mind (naama), matter (ruupa), nibbaana, concept (pa~n~natti) , what else we can find. That's why I continued with "this concept is referring to a mass of ruupa, a mass of inseparable matter (avinibbhogaruupa) or sometimes also include sound nonad (saddhnavaka) and also space-element (aakaasa dhaatu)." Here, I define it as a concept of the real (vijjamaanapa~ n~natti). .... S: As you say, if it's not naama, ruupa or nibbaana (actually a naama by definition), it's pa~n~natti. Concepts about the real, the unconditioned aakaasa ruupa of the 'open' spaces, as I see it. ... >When you mentioned "space in the ear" as "real space", which means it is conditioned thing (sankata). They have the three universal characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta). What are the things that can be conditioned? They are citta, cetasika, and ruupa. Two dhamma cannot be conditioned, which are Nibbaana and Pa~n~natti. .... S: Actually three - nibbaana, pa~n~natti and the unconditioned aakaasa ruupa. So the "space in the ear" is asankhata. Very tricky... .... >The space in between kalaapa-ruupa is also exist as a ruupa. It arises and falls. It is not nothingness. The space of our "walking path" is also not nothingness. .... S: Yes. .... >Otherwise, it seems something exist permanently. That's why space-element (aakaasa dhaatu) is also one of the 28 ruupa, otherwise one may hold the view of "permanent space". .... S: Just as we don't think of "permanent" nibbaana or permanent concepts, no need to think of "permanent" unconditioned space. Yes, aakaasa dhaatu is one of the 28 ruupa, but 2 different manifestations... .... >Regarding the quote from Atthasåliní II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 314. "Space in the ear or the nose is space that is not conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition; it is unconditioned rúpa." >Firstly, what are the dhamma that are not able to be conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition? The possible dhamma are only non-concretely produced matter (anipphannaruupa) , nibbaana, or concept (pa~n~natti) . Then where shall we put the "space in the ear, etc" under? It is definitely not nibbaana. Then it must be either non-concretely produced matter (anipphannaruupa) or concept (pa~n~natti) . .... S: Anipphannaruupa.... .... >Then for sure, non-concretely produced matter cannot exist by itselves. Because they only exist as modalities or attributes of concretely produced matter (nipphannaruupa) . If based on "Space in the ear or the nose is space that is not conditioned by one of the four factors of kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition", then it must not be non-concretely produced matter too, because that statement ignores the matter produced by causes. Then the remaining is concept (pa~n~natti) . And concept is also unconditioned. Secondly, the last part of the statement "it is unconditioned rúpa". It tells you, it is ruupa, but it is unconditioned. Then the word "unconditioned" , I is possible to mean matter that cannot be produced by the four causes. Which is also referring to non-concretely produced matter (anipphannaruupa) . But this understanding may cause problem to the previous explanation. If we understand the word "unconditioned" as "asankhata", then the only possible dhamma for "asankhata" are only nibbaana and concept. Since it cannot be nibbaana, then the remaining is concept. .... S: If you look at the examples I gave in the article from Milinda Panha, you'll see 3 kinds of asankhata dhammaa clearly delineated. ... >I am so sorry to my long explanation. Stop sharing at here. >Thanks and Sadhu to all of you. I really enjoy and appreciate to study together with all of you. ... S: Not at all, you raised a number of excellent points. A very difficult area. It's a pleasure to study with you as well, Chew. Metta Sarah ========== #99778 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. sarahprocter... Dear Arjan, I was glad to read your comments as well, commenting on some of my comments which Nina kindly quoted: >>S: So, actually, there are 3 asankhata dhammas: > > a) pa~n~natti (concepts), > b) aakaasa (space) [an-antaakaasa, not pariccheda aakaasa] > c) nibbana. > >A: If I undertsand correctly, the space mentioned under b) revers to the aakaasa wich is the object of conciousness and "base" for the aakaasan~catayatana beings, the sphere of infinite space In this sphere there is no above, besides, behind etc. ... S: As I think Nina said, this is different - the object of the jhana citta, the sphere of infinite space, is a concept, a pa~n~natti, not the reality of aakaasa as included in b). So the jhana object would be included in a). .... >As the is no origo (ruupa) to start from. That would put all te aakaasa in Ruupalola and kaamaloka in with the conditioned stuff. Where one can speak of a space above, besides, inside and behind. ... S: I think we have to distinguish the concepts when we speak like this from the reality of space which exists whether we speak of it or not. I'd like to have more discussion with you Arjan and to hear more about your studies and Dhamma in your daily life. Anything you've been reading or reflecting on to share with us? Did you say you have an Abhidhamma group in Amsterdam? Metta Sarah ======== #99779 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 10:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. sarahprocter... Dear Han, Chew & all, #99124 --- On Mon, 13/7/09, han tun wrote: >Aakaasa has two meanings: (i) air, sky, atmosphere; and (ii) space. PTS Dictionary: Ākāsa1 [Sk. ākāśa fr. ā + kāś, lit. shining forth, i. e. the illuminated space] air, sky, atmosphere; space. On the concept see Cpd. 5, 16, 226. On a fanciful etym. of ākāsa (fr. ā + kassati of kṛṣ) at DhsA 325 see Dhs trsl. 178. In Burmese translation of Milindapa~nha, aakaasa is taken as sky (not space). ..... S: Surely, if aakaasa is meant as 'sky', then it would be a pa~n~natti and the texts would not refer to 3 unconditioned dhammaa, but only two - pa~n~natti and nibbaana? .... ---------- >In English translation of Milindapa~nha by N.K.G. Mendis, there is a note about space and nibbaana being not born of a cause. It says: [The notion that space (aakaasa) is not born of a cause appears to approach the Sarvaastivaadin tenet that both Nirvaana and space are unconditioned (asamskrta). Though Milinda may reflect this influence, it stops short of ascribing this status to space, specifying Nibbaana alone as unconditioned. ] .... S: "Aakaasa and nibaana - these two - are not born of kamma, not born of cause, not born of physical change." ch 13, Nagasena speaking. Also, as I quoted before: Another interesting quote is in Dilemmas VIII, "Nibbana is without a Counterpart": "Reverend Naagasena, when you say that eleven special qualities of aakaasa are present in nibbaana, what are the eleven qualities of aakaasa that are present in nibbaana?" "As, sire, aakaasa is not born, does not age, does not die, does not decease (here), does not arise (elsewhere), is hard to master, cannot be carried off by thieves, depends on nothing (anissata), is the sphere of birds (vihagamana - lit. goes through the air), without obstruction, unending, even so, sire, is nibbaana, not born, does not age, does not die, does not decease, does not arise, is hard to master, cannot be carried off by thieves, depends on nothing, is the sphere of ariyans, without obstruction, unending. These, sire, are the eleven special qualities of aakaasa that are present in nibbaana." ---------- >Han: I do not know whether the above facts will have bearing on the present discussions. ... S: What you write and add always has a bearing and is useful, Han! Metta Sarah ======= #99780 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 10:21 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Dan (With apologies for the delay in replying) (99427) > J: I think this is what the Pali "pariyatti" refers to. > > --> I was hoping to find some references to support that, but what I find is references that suggest that pariyatti is memorization with the primary purpose of preserving the dispensation in an era of oral transmission, that without someone having pariyatti the doctrine would soon be lost. Later, when everything was written down, pariyatti took on the additional (but related) meaning of "scripture." It also seems to carry a meaning of hearing the doctrine in the proper words and phrasing. =============== If pariyatti was "memorization with the primary purpose of preserving the dispensation", then it would not be a level of understanding (panna). But putting aside the question of the meaning of pariyatti, the more important issue for us is to identify those things mentioned by the Buddha as being necessary to be heard and grasped before there can be the arising of awareness and direct understanding (whatever term we may use to describe these). =============== > J: To my understanding, the matters that need to be heard and grasped concern, among other things, the meaning and nature of dhammas (aka khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, etc) > > --> Yes, the meaning and nature of dhammas, in particular the tilakkhana. To my understanding, detailed intellectual understanding of lists of khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, cittas, cetasikas, etc. is not part of the recipe for baking satipatthana. =============== You refer, I think, to the Abhidhamma. However, when I mentioned khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, etc, I had in mind the suttas, which contain whole sections dedicated to each of these classifications. An understanding of these references is I think necessary in order to understand the meaning and nature of dhammas, since each classification helps bring out a different aspect of dhammas. Memorization of lists has never been suggested as being a necessary prerequisite for the arising of awareness and direct understanding (in case you're implying it has been ;-)) Jon #99781 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 10:26 am Subject: Re: Supramundane Jhaana jonoabb Hi Alex (With apologies for the delay in replying) (99433) > > As regards Anagamis, the anagami is perfected in samadhi, just as the sotapanna is perfected in sila and the arahant in panna. In each case, however, the perfection is attained *by virtue of* the attainment of the relevant path consciousness, rather than being a prerequisite for that attainment. > > > > I politely disagree. > > I believe that perfection of sila and reaching N8P = stream entry. > > Not, reaching stream = attaining perfection of sila and reaching N8P. =============== To my understanding, the stream is the Noble Eightfold Path, and the moment of stream-entry is the moment of attainment of the first of the 4 levels of enlightenment. SN 55:5: "What is the stream? "This Noble Eightfold Path is the stream; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. "What is a stream-enterer? "One who possesses this Noble Eightfold Path is a stream-enterer: this venerable one of such a name and clan." It is only at the actual moment of stream-entry that the relevant akusala tendencies are eradicated. Prior to that moment they still exist and hence also does the potential for breach of sila. =============== > But the Jhana IS important. > > Look, if you can't supress the hindrances for a short while - what makes you think you can do it for all time? =============== Regarding the idea of suppression of the hindrances "for all time". At each of the stages of insight, the various kilesa are eradicated (or at least attenuated). Eradication means there is no longer any question of suppression. This eradication, which is effected by the magga citta, is a function of the panna that accompanies that citta. =============== > > Yes, but temporary suppression of the hindrances does not mean more >likelihood of awareness or understanding. > > Actually it does. IMHO there cannot be understanding when the hindrances are present, because the presence of hindrances implies that the mind doesn't understand the noble truths. =============== I have already agreed that panna cannot coexist with the hindrances (within the same moment of consciousness). But as I've also said, it is clear from the texts that consciousness with lust/hatred/delusion can be known by panna. Unless the unwholesome moments of consciousness are seen to be anicca, dukkha and anattaa, they will continue to be taken for self. Suppression of the hindrances by jhana is only ever temporary (for the moment to moment duration of the jhana citta). Jon #99782 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 10:30 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation jonoabb Hi Dan (99280)(part 2) > =============== > J: What you describe as models, telling stories would not be regarded as intellectual understanding in the sense I've just described... > > --> That's right. What I describe as models and telling stories is pariyatti or pointing to dhammas in a way that makes them easier to see. By contrast, "intellectual understanding" is theorizing and conceptualizing dhammas in a way that makes them harder to see. > > Some examples of "models": paticca samuppada, anicca/anatta/dukkha, 4NT, 10 fetters, 10 paramis, etc. These are all descriptions of reality that are used to alert the mind to what may be seen and MUST be seen to effect liberation. > =============== I would say paticca samuppada, anicca/anatta/dukkha, 4NT, 10 fetters, 10 paramis, etc are all aspects of reality that are to be seen by panna as panna is developed (I'm not sure if this is the same as you are saying here). =============== > ... > J: When it comes to dhammas (rather than to conventional references), the emphasis of the suttas is on their conditioned nature and their characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. It's difficult to see how the notion of "control" can be squared with these features and attributes. > > --> It may not be as hard to "see" in practice as it is to justify it intellectually starting from a conceptualization of "anatta = no control." For example, after hearing Dhamma a child with determination and practice can change his reaction to foods. Or an accomplished meditator can attain mastery of jhanas. Or an arahat exercises such control over dhammas that akusala never arises. =============== In the case of the arahant, the roots of akusala have been totally eradicated, such that there is no possibility whatsoever of akusala arising. I would not characterise this as "exercising such control over dhammas that akusala never arises". For the arahant the arising of akusala is a total impossibility. In the other instances you quote, the degree of control is only ever temporary, as long as the underlying akusala tendencies remain unchanged. =============== It's not that there is "no control" but that the control is different from the conventional notion of "control", requires a lot of practice to learn, and it is limited. =============== Yes, the (apparent) control is limited, and it is also temporary. =============== Notably, as discussed in Sammohavinodani: "there is no exercise of power in these three instances, [namely,] 'this being arisen, let it not reach presence; having reached presence, let it not grow old; having grown old, let it not break up'" (Dispeller...p. 57); in other words, no matter how much you'd might object, anicca happens. =============== Right! Jon #99783 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 10:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. sarahprocter... Dear Chew, #99142 (Again, apologies for the long delay) --- On Tue, 14/7/09, Chew wrote: >Chew: Agree, aakaasa ruupa does not arise directly from the four main causes of matter; and it depends on the groups of material phenomena to arise. Which means, when the groups of material phenomena (kalaapa) are arising, aakaasa ruupa also are arising; when kalaapa are ceasing, aakaasa ruupa also are ceasing. .... S: Here, you are referring to pariccheda aakaasa ruupa, that which delimits the kalapas (groups) of rupas. --- --- >>Sarah: In the Visuddhimagga [6], it indicates that the 10 appanihita or asabhava rupas are "not suitable for comprehension since they are merely the mode-alteration and the limitation-of- interval" .> --- Chew: Ok, the ten kinds of non-concretely produced matter are not considered to be concrete entities because they lack intrinsic natures and thus do not enter into the range of insight contemplation. As the above statement not suitable for comprehension . --- >>Sarah: Chew: here, the aakaasa ruupa does not refer to one of the 28 ruupa, because it says Here the aakaasa ruupa does not delimit kalaapas and it doesn't depend on such kalaapas.; then it is possible to be a concept. ... S: It is aakaasa ruupa, one of the 28 ruupa, but it is a different manifestation of aakaasa ruupa which does not delimit kalaapas. ... >Otherwise, other than citta, cetasika, ruupa, nibbaana, and pa~n~natti, there appears another phenomena "asankhata aakaasa ruupa". .... S: Ruupa. ... >I do not see The Atthasaalini [9] says "where there are no mahaabhuuta (primary) elements existing, this kind of aakaasa ruupa has to be manifesting". .... S: As I wrote, in the Atth [9], it also refers to the "state of being untouched by the four great elements and of being their holes and openings as manifestation, the separated objects as proximate cause. It is that of which in the separated groups we say 'this is above, this is below, this is across.' " Later, "Wherever there is 'no obstacle', that is space." Without this kind of space manifesting, we wouldn't be able to walk in and out of spaces, swallow food, hear sounds and so on. Even when there are no other ruupas, there is the asankhata aakaasa ruupa. ... >In the air, there are countless of kalapa. We can experince the cold and hot air outside. They are the fire-element of the external kalapa. Although it is fill up with all the kalapa, we have no problem to walk in and out. ... S: If it were completely filled up, such as in the case of the desk, we wouldn't be able to walk through. ... >In between those kalapa, they are delimited by aakaasa-ruupa. When we are talking about the spaces outdise by using the conventional term, actually we refer to those kalapa and aakaasa-ruupa. ... S: Yes, those kalapa, such as all the kalapa of the desk or the kalapas anywhere, are delimited by aakaasa-ruupa, but there are also the 'empty' spaces consisting of just aakaasa ruupa, without any solid objects at all. This is why the Buddha spoke of the 'open space' of the mouth, space in the ear lobes, nostrils etc, without which nothing could be drunk, eaten, tasted, heard etc. Anyway, I appreciate all the good points you've been raising. No need to agree:). Metta Sarah ======= #99784 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 10:38 am Subject: Re: space, continued. Part 2. hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your further clarification. With my limited knowledge, I cannot say whether aakaasa is an unconditioned dhamma, together with pa~n~natti and nibbaana, or not. I just wish to ask you one question. Apart from Milindapa~nha, do you know any sutta, in which aakaasa is recognized as asankhata dhamma or an unconditioned dhamma? If you know, can you kindly quote the sutta, please? Respectfully, Han #99785 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 10:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 8. jonoabb Hi Alex (99323) > =============== > Satipatthana development as outlined in the suttas, is best done in a seclusion, and best after Jhana, period. (99355) > Any sort of "insight" practice is optimally done AFTER Jhana. > =============== You seem to be acknowledging here that satipatthana/insight development may occur without jhana having been attained. And I think any reading of the texts confirms this to be so. It would be useful to discuss exactly what the Buddha was talking about when he mentioned satipatthana/insight development, leaving aside the matter of jhana which we agree is not a prerequisite. =============== > In order to get into Jhana in the first place, a certain level of insight is needed as well. =============== This is an interesting view (which surprises, me coming from you ;-)) What is the textual basis for it? Jon #99786 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 10:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. sarahprocter... Dear Chew & all, #99197 It's great that you consulted your friend in Myanmar too: --- On Tue, 14/7/09, Chew wrote: >My friend in Myanmar forwarded the below information to me, it is extracted from Pali Dictionary by Ven Nyana Tiloka: ----- aakaasa: 'space', is, according to Com., of two kinds: 1. limited space (paricchinnaakaasa or paricchedaakaasa) , 2. endless space (anantksa), i.e. cosmic space. 1. Limited space, under the name of aakaasa-dhaatu (space element), belongs to derived corporeality (s. khandha, Summary I; Dhs 638) and to a sixfold classification of elements (s. dhtu; M 112, 115, 140). It is also an object of kasina (q.v.) meditation. .... [S: Yes, but of course as an object of kasina meditation, it's the nimitta or pa~n~natti of aakaasa]. .... >It is defined as follows: "The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Its function is to indicate the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as the confines of matter; or its manifestation consists in being untouched (by the 4 great elements), and in holes and apertures. Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. It is on account of the space element that one can say of material things delimited that 'this is above. below, around that' " (Vis.M. XIV, 63). .... S: We have to read this paragraph very carefully and extract those sentences which are referring to the second kind of open space, such as: "**OR** its manifestation consists in being untouched (by the 4 great elements), and in holes and apertures." ... >2. Endless space is called in Atthasaalini ajataakaasa, 'unentangled' , i.e. unobstructed or empty space. It is the object of the first immaterial absorption (s. jhaana), the sphere of boundless space (aakaasaana~ ncaayatana) . .... S: Again, the first sentence refers to the reality of the open space. So this is correct, it is the second manifestation and the sentence above beginning with **OR** belongs here. When it is the object of the aruupa jhaana, again it is the concept or nimitta of this manifestation of aakaasa which is the object. ... >According to Abhidhamma philosophy, endless space has no objective reality (being purely conceptual), .... S: I don't believe this is true and would have to see an Abhid quote saying this... ... >which is indicated by the fact that it is not included in the triad of the wholesome (kusalatika) , which comprises the entire reality. .... S: Would you find and quote what is said about aakaasa in this section? I have no texts with me to check. ... >Later Buddhist schools have regarded it as one of several unconditioned or uncreated states (asankhata dharma) - a view that is rejected in Kath. (s. Guide. p. 70). Theravaada Buddhism recognizes only Nibbaana as an unconditioned element (asankhata-dh tu: s. Dhs. 1084). .... S: I think we have to read and consider very carefully. Usually, when talking about aakaasa dhaatu, only the first meaning is referred to. Nina has referred to our discussion about the Kath. passage. I agree it's a very difficult area. Nyantiloka is not always correct:) ... Metta Sarah >aakaasa dhaatu: 'space element'; see above and dhaatu. aakaasa-kasina 'space-kasina exercise'; s. kasina. aakaasaana~ncaayata na: 'sphere of boundless space', is identical with the 1st absorption in the immaterial sphere; s. jhaana (6). pa~n~natti -siila: 'prescribed morality', is a name for the disciplinary rules of the monk or layman prescribed by the Buddha, as distinguished from natural or genuine morality (pakati-siila; s. siila). #99787 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 10:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth jonoabb Hi Scott (and Mike) (99692) > =============== > Again, given something Mike mentioned to me regarding jhaana, that is, that it is not jhaana per se that is necessarily difficult to attain. Jhaana is a mundane attainment. > =============== Just wondering if Mike gave any explanation of the idea that jhana per se was not difficult to attain. As I recall, the Vism seems to suggest otherwise, but knowing Mike I expect he would have had some basis for the comment. Jon #99788 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 10:56 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Re: space, continued. sarahprocter... Dear Chew & all, last one....:) #99203 --- On Tue, 14/7/09, Chew wrote: >>S: Yes, we have lots of concepts related to space. These concepts are different from the unconditioned paramattha dhamma of akasa rupa. As we know, there can be concepts or the real and concepts of the unreal. --- >Chew: Basically, I understand the word "unconditioned (asankhata) paramattha dhamma" as "ultimate reality without arising and ceasing". Can you please define the meaning? ... S: Yes, your definition is fine. The 'open' space is "an ultimate reality without arising and ceasing", as I understand. ... >What is the relation between "concepts of the real and concepts of the unreal" with "the unconditioned paramattha dhamma of akasa rupa"? ... S: I forget the context, but we have, in daily life, many concepts of space which are 'concepts of the unreal', because they are not concepts about realities. There can, however, be concepts about realities now, such as hardness, sound or aakaasa ruupa. Furthermore, there are the realities themselves, which are not concepts. Please let me know if this is not clear or you disagree/wish to discuss further. It's an area I'd been considering and questioning for quite some time and I had never come across anything written by a modern author/scholar along the lines I've been expounding, so I don't expect anyone to agree. Nina didn't at first either:-). Metta Sarah ====== #99789 From: "Scott" Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 12:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Eyes closed, was: The Inconvenient truth scottduncan2 Dear Jon (and Mike), Regarding, J: "Just wondering if Mike gave any explanation of the idea that jhana per se was not difficult to attain. As I recall, the Vism seems to suggest otherwise, but knowing Mike I expect he would have had some basis for the comment." Scott: I feel a bit anxious now, having paraphrased Mike, and am probably getting him wrong - apologies, Mike - all errors are mine. The point I feel he clarified was that the very difficult thing nowadays might be not be jhaana per se, although he was clear that attaining jhaana in one's spare time at home or at a yearly retreat was likely an impossibility. He speculated that there even might still be 'competent' (my word) jhaana-yogis - not likely in the west - in the world today. He suggested that the commentaries don't seem to state that jhaana itself won't be attainable in modern times, as I was suggesting, but that jhaana/vipassanaa attainment will be very difficult. So, jhaana is difficult to attain - this is, I believe the case. The more difficult thing might be the use of jhaana-citta by pa~n~naa - and this, I surmise, might reflect the level of accumulations in the pool, as it were. Hope this clarifies and again, apologies, Mike, if I've misunderstood you. I take all the blame and recriminations upon me. ;-) Ouch. Sincerely, Scott. #99796 From: "connie" Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:29 am Subject: The World in the Buddhist Sense. Ch 3, no 8. nichiconn Dear Jon, Alex, > In order to get into Jhana in the first place, a certain level of insight is needed as well. =============== This is an interesting view (which surprises, me coming from you ;-)) What is the textual basis for it? ======== I think, no rule of order, but here are some quotes anyway: Connected Discourses, V vi 9(9) Analysis (1) "Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. And what, bhikkhus, is the faculty of concentration? Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. *{194} This is called the faculty of concentration. * Connected Discourses, V. note 194: Vossaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa. Spk glosses: "having made Nibbaana the object". Pa.tis II 96-97 uses the expression in explicating the phrase, "[one] develops serenity preceded by insight" (vipassanaapubba"ngama.m samatha.m bhaaveti; AN II 157, 10-11): "Insight has the sense of contemplation as impermanent, as suffering, as nonself. Concentration is nondistraction, one-pointedness of mind having as object release of the phenomena produced therein (tattha jaataana.m dhammaana~n ca vossaggaaramma.nataa cittassa ekaggataa avikkhepo samaadhi). Thus first comes insight, afterwards serenity." On this Pa.tis-a III 586-87 comments: "The phenomena produced therein: the phenomena of mind and mental factors produced by that insight. Having as object release: here release is Nibbaana, for Nibbaana is called release because it is the releasing of the conditioned, its relinquishment. Insight and the phenomena associated with it have Nibbaana as object, Nibbaana as support, because they are established on Nibbaana as their support in the sense of slanting towards it by way of inclination ... Concentration is nondistraction distinguished into access and absorption (upacaarappanaabhedo avikkhepo), consisting in the one-pointedness of mind aroused by being established on Nibbaana, with that as cause by taking as object release of the phenomena produced therein. Concentration partaking of penetration (nibbedhabhaagiyo samaadhi), aroused subsequent to insight, is described." Pts: Yuganaddhavaggo, Treatise XI: 'Friends, bhikkhus, when any bhikkhu or bhikkhuni declares in my presence to have reached arahantship, it is always by four paths or by one or other of them. What four? 'Here a bhikkhu develops insight preceded by serenity. < 'Again a bhikkhu's mind is agitated by overestimation of ideas [manifested in contemplation]. There is [later] an occasion when his cognizance is internally recomposed, resettled, restored to singleness, and reconcentrated. Then the path is produced in him. He repeats, develops and makes much of that path. As he does so, his fetters are abandoned, and his underlying tendencies are exterminated. 'When any bhikkhu or bhikkhuni declares in my presence to have reached arahantship, it is always by four paths or by one or other of them'' (A ii 156) peace, connie #99797 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 3:16 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Hi Jon, This too shall pass... J: If pariyatti was "memorization with the primary purpose of preserving the dispensation", then it would not be a level of understanding (panna). --> Ah, but you must mean "type" rather than "level", no? E.g., you can get to a deeper and deeper level of intellectual understanding and never make a jump to even a shallow level of direct understanding. Or you may have a shallow level intellectual understanding and a deep level of direct understanding. J: But putting aside the question of the meaning of pariyatti, the more important issue for us is to identify those things mentioned by the Buddha as being necessary to be heard and grasped before there can be the arising of awareness and direct understanding (whatever term we may use to describe these). --> One issue is "to identify those things...necessary", and another is understanding what sort of "grasping" is necessary. What is necessary to grasp is any one of the tilakkhana, which are just three sides of the same coin. What is necessary to hear varies from person to person: khandas, ayatanas, dhatus, cittas, etc. Who knows? J: Memorization of lists has never been suggested as being a necessary prerequisite for the arising of awareness and direct understanding (in case you're implying it has been ;-)) --> No, no. No one here advocates memorizing lists, but the texts do--sometimes, for some people. Here, there is much more advocacy of "detailed intellectual understanding." That's fine, but when it morphs into the polemics of "meditation bad; grasping good", the way gets lost. -Dan #99798 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 3:27 am Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation onco111 Jon, To continue... J: ...the degree of control is only ever temporary, as long as the underlying akusala tendencies remain unchanged. --> That's right. The control is limited and temporary, but it is not non-existent. With practice, the control can become stronger and stronger, but it can never change the fundamental characteristics of reality and overcome the tilakkhana. -Dan #99799 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 11:03 pm Subject: Actually So! bhikkhu0 Friends: Actually, exactly so, invariable, & not otherwise! The Blessed Buddha once said this: Bhikkhus, there are these four things, that are actually so, invariable, not otherwise... What four? Suffering is actually so, invariable, not otherwise... The Cause of Suffering is actually so, invariable, not otherwise... The Ending of Suffering is actually so, invariable, and not otherwise... The Way to End all Suffering is actually so, invariable, not otherwise... These 4 Noble Truths are actually & exactly so, invariable, & not otherwise... Therefore, Bhikkhus, an effort should be dedicated now to really understand: All this is Suffering! An effort should be made much of to truly comprehend: Craving is the Cause of Suffering! An effort should be cultivated to realize: No Craving is the End of Suffering! Effort should be made to break through, reinforce, and develop: This Noble 8-fold Way, which ceases all Suffering... <...> Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:430-1] section 56: Saccasamyutta. Thread 19: Actually So... Have a nice true day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri <...> Actually So!