#100200 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 62: Maharahulovada Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Chew, --- On Fri, 21/8/09, chewsadhu wrote: >Dear Nina, Your answer is so wonderful. Can you please provide me the link that you have shared with others? Or if you have compiled it properly in a file, may be you can send it to me via email. Thanks and appreciate. ... See 'Useful Posts' in the Files section of DSG under ''R', 'Rahula & MahaRahulavada Sutta'. Metta Sarah ======== #100201 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MN 62: Maharahulovada Sutta nilovg Dear Chew, Op 21-aug-2009, om 16:30 heeft chewsadhu het volgende geschreven: > Or if you have compiled it properly in a file, may be you can send > it to me via email. ----- N: Sarah gave you the way how to find it in the files, and in case of trouble, let me know. You may like to discuss parts of it. Nina. #100202 From: "szmicio" Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:49 am Subject: Re: relying on craving&conceit to get rid of craving&conceit szmicio Dear Alex, Nice reminder. > It is important not just to look at the words but the example of the context as well. > > > Ananda does say how relying on craving & conceit one can abandon craving & conceit. > > > A person sees or hears about Arhat and how peaceful and world transcending that attainment is - so he thinks "I want to be like Him and be above the world and suffering". L: This is very common and can be very subtle, even unnoticable. In conventional sense we think that is like the moments of thinking about ourselves with the purpose of becoming a great Arhat.But in reality only pa~n~na can know what is what. Those conventional words point out the Dhamma so good to us, and can condition pa~n~na, siila, samadhi. There is another example for more subtle conceit: The monk can have a good siila or perfect even and then think that other people should observe siila more. Such moments can be conditioned by mana(conceit), then a monk thinks about others they are wrong in they doing. He doesnt know that all is according to Dhamma,conditioned. That's just example of mana. Also this kind of mana can condition kusala afterwards. > Through this craving & desire he undertakes the training in virtue, the development and grows in wisdom (sila-samadhi-panna). Through the course of the path, when the strong momentum was achieved, he eventually abandons craving and conceit and eventually becomes an Arahant. L: This undertaking of training just refers to moments of consciousness that are training themselfs in siila, samadhi and pa~n~na, no Self, No monk who trains. That is all in Patthana. In Patthana the Blessed One was so accurate and sympathetic to us so he give us the teching going against the stream of our conventinal thinking. We are such beneficial because of that. Now the Sutta cannot be know like in the Buddha time, instead it makes us involved in concepts, we need to hear more. My best wishes Lukas #100203 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. chewsadhu Hi Sukin (& Sarah), No matter how will be the result, I still would like to say thanks to you for explaining on this subject. --- Suk: One thing is for sure, its all imagination on my part, and it gets too philosophical especially when we are discussing something which is not the object of the present moment experience. The earth, fire and wind elements are experienced through the body door, space isn't. The kalapas arise and fall away within the unconditioned space; this is how I picture it. From the fact that I can feel heat or wind while moving my hand in the air, I don't see why I need to come to the conclusion that there is no unconditioned space. In fact it seems to affirm more the point. Is there something wrong with my reasoning? Am I missing something? Please explain in a way that I might understand. --- Ch: The kalapas arise and fall away. In between those kalapas, there are the pariccheda space-elements. These pariccheda space-elements are not unconditioned. They also arise and fall away. Can you agree with this point? Since you can feel heat, it shows that there are the exist of those kalapas. And the unconditioned space-element, which is mentioned by Sarah, has no arising-ceasing. Sarah also said "Where there is 'open space', asankhata akasa dhatu, there are no kalapas of rupas. It may be very large or very small. Outside the asankhata akasa dhatu, there are the kalapas." Do you also understand the unconditioned space element exactly as Sarah? If that is so, you said you can feel heat, which mean, the kalapas are there. Since the kalapas are there, as what Sarah mentioned, unconditioned space element not there. Because she said whenever there are unconditioned space element, there are no kalapas of rupas. The conditioned dhamma and the unconditioned space element do not co-exist. This is the reason why you have to see why you need to come to the conclusion that there is no unconditioned space element, wherever you can feel the heat, etc. If you still want to affirm more on that point, which mean, what you have understood is conflicting. --- Suk: The point about the vacuum is that kalapas of rupa are affected by different conditions to arise and fall away in different locations. That gas can be taken out of a jar or that different gases can be mixed in that same jar, is I believe due to there being space unaffected by any matter, in the absence of which the kind of movement can't take place? --- Ch: Sukin, you believe due to there being space unaffected by any matter, in the absense of which the kind of movement can take place. Do you mean the unconditioned space element exist permanently? Is it a kind of view of permanent entity? --- Suk: In the example of the ear, it is not that there is space when empty and no space when filled with something, this would actually make the space *conditioned*. Rather it is exactly because there is this *unconditioned* space that movements of matter in and out of such cavities, is made possible. Indeed, the same principle applies to instances of solids being made to compress and expand, I would think. And chemical reactions, this too seems to involve the unconditioned space playing a role. --- Ch: Sukin, Sarah said the space in the ear, etc, are unconditioned space element. It shows clearly that the unconditioned space element, that understood by Sarah, is pointing to the space in the ear, etc. When there is no more space in the ear, etc, how could you said there are still the exist of unconditioned space element? This is also where I want to say that the unconditioned space element that mentioned by you or Sarah does not exist.. --- Suk: The asankhata akasa dhatu wouldn't be inside or outside. The situation you describe is therefore impossible. That you fill up the cave with rocks and sand, is not affecting this kind of akasa dhatu. This akasa being both inside and outside of the cave that it is possible to then move rocks and place them in different locations. --- Ch: When Sarah mentioned the space in the ear, etc, as the exist of the unconditioned space element as the ultimate relity, do the space in the ear, etc is inside or outside? --- Suk: Again, I accept the possibility of being totally off target, and since I don't see any of the thinking as being with panna, at least the kind which would lead me to consider the present moment, we can drop this discussion if you want. However, since I think I have read you saying to the effect, one thing I'm curious and sincerely wish to know about, is how do you see the notion of unconditioned space? as being expression / encouraging of wrong view? Unless you have explained it in another post, in which case I'll read it in the course of the next few days. --- Ch: It is Sarah that mentioned the asankhata akasa dhatu. Why don't you ask Sarah personally on how does she see the notion of unconditioned space element. I have never accepted the exist of the unconditioned space element as the ultimate reality. Thanks anyway for your help in explaining on the unconditioned space element. Regards, Chew #100204 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: MN 62: Maharahulovada Sutta chewsadhu Dear Nina & Sarah, I have found the link location. Thanks and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100205 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:01 am Subject: To Nina and Sarah hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, I just heard the following story from my grand-son. In Rangoon there is a lay-follower who is very much conversant with the Buddha's teachings, and who is especially sudying and practicing satipa.t.thaana. Once, he asked a monk what sort of meditation the monk was practicing. The monk answered that he was contemplating on anattaa all the time. The lay-follower was not very satisfied. He probably wanted to hear about the four foundations of mindfulness. So he asked the monk again, the same question on a slightly different wording. The monk said, if he was contemplating on nattaa all the time, what more he needed to contemplate? After all, the Buddha vaada is Anattaa vaada! When I heard the story from my grand-son, I immediately remember you. Respectfully, Han #100206 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] contemplating anattaa. To Nina and Sarah nilovg Dear Han, Op 22-aug-2009, om 12:01 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > The monk said, if he was contemplating on nattaa all the time, what > more he needed to contemplate? After all, the Buddha vaada is > Anattaa vaada! > > When I heard the story from my grand-son, I immediately remember you. ------ N: I like your story. I think there are many stories in Mianmar and I always like to hear more, Han. It is always worth while. As to contemplating anattaa, this is very realistic. The question is : how is he contemplating on anattaa, what is anattaa, when does it appear? We may repeat to ourselves: anattaa, anattaa, but do we understand seeing as anattaa? We can learn very gradually, that nobody can cause its arising, that it arises because of its appropriate conditions. We can learn this at the moment seeing appears. Thinking of anattaa or contemplating on it, this is conditioned. If we had not heard of anattaa we could not consider it. An idea of self who contemplates may creep in. Also this is conditioned, by former inclinations to think in this way. It is so stubborn, so deeply rooted. But it is anattaa. Any time you have more stories, I like to listen to them. Nina. #100207 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is tension in abhidhamma terms? nilovg Dear pt, Op 21-aug-2009, om 10:11 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > What is the purpose of the first kind of cittaja rupa - the pure > octad? As I understand it, all the other 5 kinds of cittaja rupas > have something to do with some kind of change - changing posture, > expressing something, etc. So, the only thing I can think of is > that the first kind on its own (without the others) simply > maintains the current posture. Is that right? ------ N: No, because maintaining the current posture is the same as strengthening the posture. The pure octads: these are arising and falling away from birth to death. Actually, the first bhavangacitta, succeeding the rebirth-consciousness begins to originate pure octads. -------- > > pt: 2. How is cittaja rupa number 2 different from number 5? I > mean, both are described as arsing because citta wants to convey a > specific meaning, but while cittaja rupa 5 does it "by way of > bodily expression or different gestures", there is no mention of > how the cittaja rupa number 2 does it. I assume this would have to > be somehow without bodily expression or gestures, because there are > no three vikara rupas in the second kind of cittaja rupa kalapa. ------- N: no 5: lightness etc. condiiton suppleness and smoothness of gestures while conveying a meaning. --------- > > pt:3. "Bodily expression or different gestures" would include the > face expression as well, right? --------- N: Certainly. One may frown to express anger. One may smile to express goodwill and kindness. ------ Nina. #100208 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM 40 kammatthana objects: How does one choose & develop them? nilovg Dear Ciaran (and Alex), Op 20-aug-2009, om 17:24 heeft kjerantalle het volgende geschreven: > I can see that that is so if we are talking only about knowing > metta as and when it happens to arise. But if we are speaking of > the *development* of metta as a divine abiding and an illimitable, > then it seems there are quite a few 'rules', starting with: > > "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among > these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments and learn > the meditation subject. ------ N: Certainly, if he is able to develop jhaana with this subject. But it is indispensable for him to know the difference between akusala citta and kusala citta. Otherwise he cannot develop calm. This goes for all meditation subjects. Thank you for providing the Co. on the difficult text about following craving. Only one thing: the -abba ending is not always to be translated as must. It can be translated as: it can be followed. Nina. #100209 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation nilovg Dear Alex, Op 20-aug-2009, om 20:46 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > An ordinary worldling cannot just avoid craving, conceit and the > tendency towards them. So might as well use it as "a preliminary > hook" to get started on the wholesome path (and to drop it later). ------ N: Right, he cannot avoid craving. What can he do? Being aware of it and have right understanding of it when it arises. He can learn to see it as an impersonal element, condiitoned, not in anyone's power. That is the way leading to its eradication. Now the text and commentary is more intricate. Ciaran gave us the Co text. Something to think over. This was discussed before in dsg. Nina. #100210 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] contemplating anattaa. To Nina and Sarah hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, > Nina: As to contemplating anattaa, this is very realistic. The question is: how is he contemplating on anattaa, what is anattaa, when does it appear? Han: My grand-son got this story second-hand or, perhaps, many-hands. So he or I do not know the details. But what you wrote is a very good answer to your own question. I will tell you when I hear good stories. Respectfully, Han #100211 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is tension in abhidhamma terms? ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. > N: No, because maintaining the current posture is the same as > strengthening the posture. The pure octads: these are arising and > falling away from birth to death. Actually, the first bhavangacitta, > succeeding the rebirth-consciousness begins to originate pure octads. pt: So, then what is the purpose of pure octads? I mean what do they do when they arise alone (without any other rupas in the kalapa) if they neither change the posture nor maintain it? > N: no 5: lightness etc. condiiton suppleness and smoothness of > gestures while conveying a meaning. pt: Yep, I think I got that about the rupa number 5, but I was wondering about rupa number 2 - I mean, how does it convey a meaning without bodily expressions and gestures (which happen through the 3 vikara rupas, like in rupa number 5)? Best wishes pt #100212 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 62: Maharahulovada Sutta ashkenn2k Dear Chew Let me add something into this email Ch: It seems like you are talking on pure insight meditation. > Looking at the hardness of the teeth, etc. The hardness is an > ultimate reality. And this hardness, as the ultimate reality, is > the object of insight knowledge. > > What is the connection of these 32 parts of the body here? > Is it one of the Samatha meditation subjects? -------- N: Foulness of the body: it can be seen in daily life, everyday. These 32 parts are very helpful for seeing the foulness of the body and they bring us back to the reality appearing at this moment. This is the objective of all the different parts of the satipatthaanasutta: they remind us and bring us back to nama and rupa appearing now. ----------------------------- K. There are two different ways which one mediates on the 32 parts. As repulsiveness and as elements. Meditaion on elements - For those who are not of quick learning, they would usually learn the 32 parts in details as in the same as repulsiveness meditation but they will replace repulsiveness with elements. For respulsiveness, it is usually used for people who is of greedy temperamental, as for elements it is one for the intelligence/intellectual temperamental. -------- > > CH: For the earth-element, space-element, etc in this Sutta, do > they refer to the ultimate reality, which is the object of insight > meditation? -------- N: Yes, it is repeated: this is not mine, not myself. This refers to insight. -------- K: The Dispeller of Delusion <<389. Furthermore "element" is a term for the soulless (nijjiva). And accordingly to the Blesed One taught the elements for the purpose of abolishing the perception of soul in [passages such as:] "This man, bhikkhus, has six elements" (M iii 239) etc. .... >> Visud, Chap XI (on mediitation of elements) <<104..... They are impermanent in the sense of [liability to] to destruction; they are painful in the sense of [causing] terror; they are not self in the sense of having no core [of permanence, and so on]. Thus there is unity of all since all are materiality, great primaries, elements, states, impermanent, and so on>> > Ch: If they refer to the ultimate reality, can space-element become > the object of insight meditation? ------ N: It can, because the Buddha taught it. The question is only: for whom. --------- > > Ch: The space-element, as the ultimate reality, is a non-concretely > produced matter. It is not considered to be concrete entity because > it lacks intrinsic natures and thus does not enter into the range > of insight contemplation. ------ N: The Vis. (XIV, 73) states about the the sixteen ruupas which are subtle that they are called 'far' because difficult to penetrate, whereas gross is called 'near', because it is easy to penetrate. Yes, difficult to penetrate, but not impossible. ------------------------------------- K: space is not used in the elements meditation. Limited space is used as a kasina as a mediation subject. Chapter Nine: Exposition of te Topics of Abhidhamma <<(36) while by removing any of the kasinas, excluding space, and carrying out the preparatory work on the consequent space in terms of "boundlessness", the first formless [mediation] becomes fixed. . Commentary 36. Since it is not possible to remove the space kasina, excluding space is said The kasina: the counterpart sign By removing: by taking it away by way not bringing it to mind As one does the preparatory work .... in terms of boundlessness: by doing the preparatory work on space, saying to himself "boundless space, boundless space", but not "boundless boundless' alone. It is the same case of the sphere of boundienss consciousness ..... >> cheers Ken O #100213 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. jonoabb Hi Lucas (With apologies to you and others for the delay in replying since our arrival in Fiji) (100005) > > I think still only 4 paramattha dhammas, since open space comes under the dhamma of rupa. > > L: And the term paramattha dhamma, where can be found? As Nina has already explained, "paramattha dhamma" is not a sutta term. It is found only in the commentaries. I do not have a specific reference handy, but will let you know if I come across one. Jon #100214 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:24 pm Subject: Re: why Sujin recommends dry insight jonoabb Hi Robert (100009) > Visuddimagga about anapanasati: > ""159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament, {43} and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. ... > 160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. > ""endquote > =============== I don't read this as saying that the development of samatha with anapanasati as object is dependent on posture, i.e., a sitting posture. I think this passage describes the development of samatha by a monk whose life is dedicated to that development (in addition to insight), and that the same would apply whatever the object (kasina, etc). =============== > {43}. 'In the hot season the forest is favourable, in the cold season the root of a tree, in the rainy season an empty place. For one of phlegmatic humour, phlegmatic by nature, the forest is favourable, for one of bilious humour the root of a tree, for one of windy humour an empty place. For one of deluded temperament the forest, for one of hating temperament the root of a tree, for one of greedy temperament an empty place' (Pm.258). =============== Likewise, this passage is not saying that the development of samatha with anapanasati as object is season/climate/location dependent too. ;-)) =============== > In case there is any doubt I was talking about samatha development for one aiming at growth and increase. Of course if one is merely talking about moments of samatha - without further development- then these moments are not so dependent on being secluded, away from noise, etc. =============== To my understanding, the actual development (i.e., growth and increase) of any form of kusala depends on an appreciation of its value and being able to recognise it when it arises. Jon #100215 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. jonoabb Hi Nina (and Lucas) Thanks for coming in on this thread. (100011) > N: In the suttas you find the classification by way of khandhas, and > in the co you find the classification by way of paramattha dhammas. > The three conditioned paramattha dhammas are classified as five > khandhas. > =============== I thought this was probably the case, that the term "paramattha dhamma" appeared only in the commentaries (to the Abhidhamma, perhaps). =============== > As to open space: if it is rupa, is it rupa-kkhandha? Khandhas arise > and fall away. That is still a problem. I cannot answer that. =============== As I understand it, both kinds of akaasa are taken to be part of rupa khandha, although I'd agree there's a problem with that if "unarisen/unconditioned" means the same as it does in the case of nibbana. Jon #100216 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam jonoabb Hi KenO (100016) > even those with have attained the highest degree of jhana before Buddha, have understand the drawbacks of sense-impressions first. > =============== Yes, those who attain jhana outside the dispensation have seen that sense-impressions inevitably lead to the arising of akusala, and that if those sense-impressions can be suppressed then that akusala will not arise. But they do not understand that the root cause of the arising akusala is its presence as a latent tendency, and that it's eradication can be achieved only by the development of panna which sees dhammas as they truly are. Nor do they see the clinging that is not associated with sense-impressions, i.e., the clinging to becoming, the clinging that is the basis for conceit, etc. The panna of samatha is a different kind to that of satipatthana. Jon #100217 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: VsM 40 kammatthana objects: How does one choose & develop them? truth_aerator Dear Nina, and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ciaran (and Alex), > Op 20-aug-2009, om 17:24 heeft kjerantalle het volgende geschreven: > > > I can see that that is so if we are talking only about knowing > > metta as and when it happens to arise. But if we are speaking of > > the *development* of metta as a divine abiding and an illimitable, > > then it seems there are quite a few 'rules', starting with: > > > > "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among > > these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments and learn > > the meditation subject. > ------ > N: Certainly, if he is able to develop jhaana with this subject. >But > it is indispensable for him to know the difference between akusala > citta and kusala citta. And how long does it take to learn the difference between kusala and akusala citta? Is it really that long and hard? > Thank you for providing the Co. on the difficult text about following > craving. Only one thing: the -abba ending is not always to be > translated as must. It can be translated as: it can be followed. > Nina. First of all it is -tabba ending is future passive particle. But it doesn't simply have passive sense. It means the desirebility of something or "should be done" . I got this from "A new course in reading pali". ex: arocetabba = should be informed. bhavetabba = should be cultivated. bhayitabba = should be afraid. chaddetabba = should be abandoned. chettabba = ought to be cut off. esitabba = should be sought after. katabba = what ought to be done. (nt.), duty. very few examples With metta, Alex #100218 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:50 am Subject: Re: relying on craving&conceit to get rid of craving&conceit truth_aerator Dear Lukas and all interested, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Nice reminder. > > > It is important not just to look at the words but the example of the context as well. > > > > > > Ananda does say how relying on craving & conceit one can abandon craving & conceit. > > > > > > A person sees or hears about Arhat and how peaceful and world transcending that attainment is - so he thinks "I want to be like Him and be above the world and suffering". > > L: This is very common and can be very subtle, even unnoticable. > In conventional sense we think that is like the moments of thinking >about ourselves with the purpose of becoming a great Arhat. Is it bad to desire to become Arhat? Also, not all people think that "I, this Self, wants to become Arhat". Some people are conditioned to develop the path to ultimate peace Arhatship and Nibbana. >But in reality only pa~n~na can know what is what. Sure. I don't argue against this. > Those conventional words point out the Dhamma so good to us, and can condition pa~n~na, siila, samadhi. > > There is another example for more subtle conceit: > The monk can have a good siila or perfect even and then think that >other people should observe siila more. Is it bad to think that others should be more virtuous? Actually it is better to use the words "prefer" or "better". It would be better and more prefereble if more people were more virtuous. >Such moments can be conditioned by mana(conceit), Guess what. Even Anagamis have conceit. I don't know about you and some other people on this list, but I am not close to that stage, so getting rid of ALL subtle conceit is not the first priority for now. You don't worry about building the 10th floor until you set the base and the 1st floor. > L: This undertaking of training just refers to moments of >consciousness that are training themselfs in siila, samadhi and >pa~n~na, no Self, No monk who trains. Sure. But for communication purposes we HAVE to use nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs and so on. If one uses 5 pages to say what can be said with one word, you see the linguistic difficulty. Please don't turn the discussion into semantic steam roller where you critique my position simply due to my proper usage of grammar and the proper words used as the language requires. Even the Buddha often said "I, me, mine you, your, he, she, it." With Metta, Alex #100219 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 62: Maharahulovada Sutta chewsadhu Dear Ken O, Your information is very useful to me. Thank and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100220 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Howard, --------- KH: > > I think Ananda wanted to say that DO was understandable, but he accidentally said it in a way that gave a wrong impression. The way he said it gave the impression that DO was somehow *not* profound, deep in meaning and knowable only to the wise. > > H: > Yes, Ananda DID state it as being and seeming deep, but what he said was still off the mark. It seems that while Ananda admitted to D. O. being profound and seeming so, yet claimed to have a clear understanding of it, and that claim is what the Buddha took exception to, the Buddha implying that D. O. is actually far more profound than Ananda realized. In DN 15, the conversation went as follows: [Ananda:] "It's amazing, lord, it's astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be." [The Buddha:] "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations. ..." ----------- Thanks Howard, that's interesting. I wonder where Ananda went wrong. He recognised that D.O. was both deep and deep-in-appearance. And then he added that, amazingly, it seemed clear to him. Perhaps he should have said that, amazingly, it was* clear enough* to him? ------------- KH: > > And didn't the Buddha agree to teach the Dhamma after considering that even slow witted people could be taught some level of right understanding? > > H: > It is certainly true that the Buddha was fully aware that people of dull intelligence could be brought even to some awakening [There is that cloth-rubbing example], but his agreeing to teach the Dhamma was due to it being pointed out to him that there were people who could be fairly easily awakened, those who had "but little dust in their eyes." (MN 26) ------------------------------------------------- Thanks, I remember now. That was what persuaded him. And then he went on to teach other kinds of people as well. I don't agree with your example, however. The cloth-rubbing story was about someone who had accumulated enormous wisdom but who, in this lifetime, had some kind of mental disorder that was holding his wisdom back. Ken H #100221 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:03 am Subject: Careful Attention! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Careful & Rational Attention weakens the Mental Hindrances: The Blessed Buddha once said: When one attends carefully & rationally, unarisen Sense-Desire does neither arise, nor later expand. When one attends carefully & rationally, unarisen Ill-Will does neither arise, nor later expand. When one attends carefully & rationally, unarisen Lethargy & Laziness does neither arise, nor expand. When one attends carefully & rationally, unarisen Restlessness & Regret does neither arise, nor expand. When one attends carefully & rationally, unarisen Doubt & Uncertainty does neither arise, nor expand. Furthermore the Awareness Link to Awakening arises, & is gradually completed by mental development. Any unarisen Investigation Link to Awakening arises, & is gradually completed by mental evolution. Any unarisen Energy Link to Awakening arises, & is gradually completed by repeated mental refinement. Any unarisen Joy Link to Awakening arises, & is gradually completed by meditative mental improvement. Any unarisen Tranquillity Link to Awakening arises, & is gradually completed by mental expansion. Any unarisen Concentration Link to Awakening arises, & is gradually completed by mental sophistication. Any unarisen Equanimity Link to Awakening arises, & is gradually completed by mental maturation. More on the 5 Mental Hindrances and 7 Links to Awakening: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_5_Mental_Hindrances.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Seven_Links_to_Awakening.htm Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:93-4] section 46: The Links. 35: Careful Attention... Have a nice attentive day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Careful Attention! #100222 From: "szmicio" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:24 am Subject: Re: relying on craving&conceit to get rid of craving&conceit szmicio Dear Alex, > > L: This is very common and can be very subtle, even unnoticable. > > In conventional sense we think that is like the moments of thinking >about ourselves with the purpose of becoming a great Arhat. > > Is it bad to desire to become Arhat? It depends whether it's kusala or akusala citta. You can think of becoming Arahat with kusala chanda or with akusala chanda as well. All depends on conditions. Even akusala citta can be a condition for kusala. When there is no desire to become Arahat, you can become Arahat. Remind yourself the Ananda. > Also, not all people think that "I, this Self, wants to become Arhat". L: Of course, I just gave you one of the possiblities. The Dhamma is like that you know what is possible and this what is possible is Dhamma. You cannot go to Mars and back in 1 sec. that's impossible, but you can have mana on account of perfect siila, that's possible, That's Dhamma. You can read visudhimagga and sit and develop one of the subjects and then you can become Arahat. And this is according to Dhamma. But you can sit regulary without reading anything and try to do particular technique and this is according too akusala Dhamma or micchamagga. But also it depends wheather citta is kusala or not. > Some people are conditioned to develop the path to ultimate peace Arhatship and Nibbana. L: Yes, some people are conditioned to develop the Path. > >But in reality only pa~n~na can know what is what. > > Sure. I don't argue against this. > > > > Those conventional words point out the Dhamma so good to us, and can condition pa~n~na, siila, samadhi. > > > > There is another example for more subtle conceit: > > The monk can have a good siila or perfect even and then think that >other people should observe siila more. > > Is it bad to think that others should be more virtuous? Actually it is better to use the words "prefer" or "better". It would be better and more prefereble if more people were more virtuous. L: No matter which word will you use "prefer" or "better" because if mana is present, this doesnt change anything. Of course being more virtous is great. But when you see that everything is according to their own conditions, than you see that is not yours and out of control. Then you can have metta, because you see that everything what happens now is conditioned. Of course monk can be perfect in siila, and teaches us siila, and mana doest arises. It's of course possible. But understanding is foremost and it's the cause of the PATH. PATH is always begining with pa~n~na, that condition siila and samadhi. the siila on its own is siila. The understanding that arises with siila is the PATH. > >Such moments can be conditioned by mana(conceit), > > Guess what. Even Anagamis have conceit. I don't know about you and some other people on this list, but I am not close to that stage, so getting rid of ALL subtle conceit is not the first priority for now. > You don't worry about building the 10th floor until you set the base and the 1st floor. L: Yes, I agree. I didnt want to say that something is bad or wrong. conceit is the dhamma that can be understood. My best wishes Lukas #100223 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam ashkenn2k Dear Jon your original post in 99934, <> then how you are saying <> hmm ???? are you trying to confuse me, hmm.. so right view is first or not for the path... Cheers Ken O ________________________________ From: jonoabb To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 23 August 2009 6:34:11 Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam Hi KenO (100016) > even those with have attained the highest degree of jhana before Buddha, have understand the drawbacks of sense-impressions first. > ============ === Yes, those who attain jhana outside the dispensation have seen that sense-impressions inevitably lead to the arising of akusala, and that if those sense-impressions can be suppressed then that akusala will not arise. But they do not understand that the root cause of the arising akusala is its presence as a latent tendency, and that it's eradication can be achieved only by the development of panna which sees dhammas as they truly are. Nor do they see the clinging that is not associated with sense-impressions, i.e., the clinging to becoming, the clinging that is the basis for conceit, etc. The panna of samatha is a different kind to that of satipatthana. Jon #100224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. nilovg Dear Jon, I hope you are doing well in Fiji. Seems a long stay. Op 23-aug-2009, om 0:32 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > As I understand it, both kinds of akaasa are taken to be part of > rupa khandha, although I'd agree there's a problem with that if > "unarisen/unconditioned" means the same as it does in the case of > nibbana. ------ N: I am also inclined, like you, to see 'not conditioned space' as an exception. It cannot be compared with nibbaana, of course. Perhaps the less said the better. Nina. #100225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 62: Maharahulovada Sutta nilovg Dear Ken O and Chew, Op 22-aug-2009, om 18:40 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > >> CH: For the earth-element, space-element, etc in this Sutta, do > > they refer to the ultimate reality, which is the object of insight > > meditation? > -------- > N: Yes, it is repeated: this is not mine, not myself. This refers to > insight. > -------- > K: The Dispeller of Delusion > <<389. Furthermore "element" is a term for the soulless > (nijjiva). And accordingly to the Blesed One taught the elements > for the purpose of abolishing the perception of soul in [passages > such as:] "This man, bhikkhus, has six elements" (M iii 239) > etc. .... >> > > Visud, Chap XI (on meditation of elements) > <<104..... They are impermanent in the sense of [liability to] to > destruction; they are painful in the sense of [causing] terror; > they are not self in the sense of having no core [of permanence, > and so on]. Thus there is unity of all since all are materiality, > great primaries, elements, states, impermanent, and so on>> > > K: space is not used in the elements meditation. Limited space is > used as a kasina as a mediation subject. > ------ N: I am not thinking of the elements meditation in a strict sense, as meditation subjects for samatha. More in a general sense. Dhaatu is the same in meaning as dhamma. Whatever appears is just a dhamma, or just a dhaatu. I am thinking of M. 115 (transl Sister Upalavanna, from Rob K's web Vipassana); <'Venerable sir, saying it rightly how is the wise bhikkhu clever in the elements?' 'Aananda, there are eighteen elements. They are the elements of eye, forms and eye consciousness; ear, sounds, and ear consciousness; nose, scents and nose consciousness; tongue, tastes and tongue consciousness; body, touches and body consciousness; mind, ideas and mind consciousness. Aananda, these are the eighteen elements, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, he becomes clever in the elements. 'Venerable sir, is there another method through which the bhikkhu becomes clever in the elements?' 'There is a method. The bhikkhu becomes clever in the six elements, such as the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness Aananda, these are the six elements, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the elements'. 'Venerable sir, is there another method through which the bhikkhu becomes clever in the elements?' 'There is a method.These six are the elements of pleasantness, unpleasantness, pleasure, displeasure, equanimity and ignorance, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the elements' 'Venerable sir, is there another method through which the bhikkhu becomes clever in the elements?' 'There is a method.These six are the elements of sensuality, non sensuality, anger, non anger, hurting and non hurting, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the elements' 'Venerable sir, is there another method through which the bhikkhu becomes clever in the elements?' 'There is a method.These three are the elements, of sensuality, materiality and immateriality, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, sayingit rightly he becomes clever in the elements.' 'Venerable sir, is there another method through which the bhikkhu becomes clever in the elements?' 'There is a method.These two are the elements, such as the compounded and the uncompounded elementwhen the bhikkhu knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the elements.' 'Venerable sir, saying it rightly how is the bhikkhu clever in the spheres?' 'Aananda, these six are the internal and external spheres of the eye and forms, ear and sounds, nose and scents, tongue and tastes, body and touches and mind and ideas, when the bhikkhu knows and sees them, saying it rightly he becomes clever in the spheres.' > There are many ways of classifying elements, but most important: whatever appears now, see it as an element. This was the Buddha's message to Raahula. Space may appear or not appear, it depends on conditions. ---------- > Ken: For respulsiveness, it is usually used for people who is of > greedy temperamental, as for elements it is one for the > intelligence/intellectual temperamental. ------ N: We all have greed. I am rather thinking of the meditation subjects 'for every occasion': among them the Recollection of the Buddha etc. I am not thinking of those who want to develop jhaana, rather of the way how repulsiveness is a good reminder in daily life and can bring us to the reality appearing right now: only an element. ------ Nina. #100226 From: Ken O Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. ashkenn2k Dear Nina and Jon Yes, I agreed with you, it cannot be compared with Nibbana. If we compare in such a way, concept could be Nibbana. I like this particular passage from the Dispeller of Delusion on what is Nibbana <<252. ........... The Jambukhadaka-sutta was quoted thus: ""Nibbana" is said, friend Sariputta; what, friend, is nibbana?" "that which is the destruction of greed, the destruction of hate and the destruction of delusion - that is called Nibbana." (S iv 251) ... >> cheers Ken O ________________________________ From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 23 August 2009 4:48:07 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. Dear Jon, I hope you are doing well in Fiji. Seems a long stay. Op 23-aug-2009, om 0:32 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > As I understand it, both kinds of akaasa are taken to be part of > rupa khandha, although I'd agree there's a problem with that if > "unarisen/unconditi oned" means the same as it does in the case of > nibbana. ------ N: I am also inclined, like you, to see 'not conditioned space' as an exception. It cannot be compared with nibbaana, of course. Perhaps the less said the better. Nina. #100227 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 62: Maharahulovada Sutta chewsadhu Dear Nina and Ken O, Nina tells me how to apply the methods that mention in the Sutta to be used in daily life. Ken O provides me more information that relate to the method in the Sutta. Both of you are wonderful. We understand that the 40 meditation subjects, which are usually to be used to develop Samatha concentration, are also can be used in develop some degree of concentration (not up to Jhana concentration). E.g. a yogi can practice metta bhavana for 10 to 15 minutes before one practice the vipassana method. This metta bhavana can help to calm down and also soften the mind. Recollection of death, if practice in daily life also can help in many sense. Etc. Beside to think of what are the use of method that mention in a particular Sutta, or what are the relate methods that can be interpreted to that particular Sutta. I am just thinking, can we study that particular Sutta by knowing the actual happening in it. And also understand the individual word by meaning precisely. Let's say, one may say the head hair, body hair, etc, that appear in the Maharahulovada Sutta, is the Kaayagataasati. The other also may say they are just the base for the insight meditation to note on the earth-element. One may say the space-element that mention in that Sutta, is the Aakaasa kasin.a. The other may say another way. Etc. It seems like all explanations can be accepted. But, what is actually told by the Buddha in that particular Sutta? There are more people like to study Sutta, because it is more easy to fit in as what they understand to. I am not saying that their elaborations not correct. As I said, Nina's explanation and Ken O's explanation can be accepted by me. It would be better, if I can know what is the meaning that mention in that particular Sutta by the Buddha exactly. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100228 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:45 am Subject: Re: space, ruupakkhandha, Khandha Yamaka chewsadhu Dear Nina & all, I would like to share with you some interesting points of all the related ruupa and ruupakkhandha that appear in the Exposition Section on Terms of Khandha Yamaka. Hope you like it. (Verse.26) (a) It is ruupa. Is it matter aggregate? Lovable-ruupa and pleasant-ruupa are ruupa, but not matter aggregate. Matter aggregate is both ruupa and matter aggregate. (b) It is matter aggregate. Is it ruupa? Yes. (Verse.27) (a) It is not ruupa. Is it not matter aggregate? Yes. (b) It is not matter aggregate. Is it not ruupa? Lovable-ruupa and pleasant-ruupa are not matter aggregate, but ruupa. Leaving out ruupa and matter aggregate, the remaining are neither ruupa nor matter aggregate. (Verse.29) (b) It is aggregates. Is it matter aggregate? Matter aggregate is both aggregate and matter aggregate. The remaining are aggregates, but not matter aggregate. (Verse.34) (b) It is not aggregates. Is it not matter aggregate? Yes. (Verse.39) (a) It is not ruupa. Is it not aggregates? Leaving out ruupa, the remaining aggregates are not ruupa, but aggregates. Leaving out ruupa and aggregates, the remaining are neither ruupa nor aggregates. (Verse.40) (a) It is ruupa. Is it aggregates? Yes. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100229 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. chewsadhu Dear Ken O, It is so wonderful of what you have quoted from Dispeller of Delusion. I also would like to share with you the following: The aggamaggacitta (Arahatta path consciousness), which takes Nibbaana as object, has the function of eradicating the 2 evil-roots, i.e. lobhamuulacitta and mohamuulacitta (the dosamuulacitta has been eradicated by anagamimaggacitta). May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Nina and Jon > > Yes, I agreed with you, it cannot be compared with Nibbana.?If we compare in such a way, concept could be Nibbana. > > I like this particular passage from the Dispeller of Delusion on what is Nibbana > <<252. ........... The Jambukhadaka-sutta was quoted thus: ""Nibbana" is said, friend Sariputta; what, friend, is nibbana?"?quot;that which is the destruction of greed, the destruction of hate and the destruction of delusion - that is called Nibbana." (S iv 251) ... >> > > cheers > Ken O > > > ________________________________ > From: Nina van Gorkom > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, 23 August 2009 4:48:07 > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. > > ? > Dear Jon, > I hope you are doing well in Fiji. Seems a long stay. > Op 23-aug-2009, om 0:32 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > > > As I understand it, both kinds of akaasa are taken to be part of > > rupa khandha, although I'd agree there's a problem with that if > > "unarisen/unconditi oned" means the same as it does in the case of > > nibbana. > ------ > N: I am also inclined, like you, to see 'not conditioned space' as an > exception. It cannot be compared with nibbaana, of course. Perhaps > the less said the better. > Nina. > > #100230 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/23/2009 12:16:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, --------- KH: > > I think Ananda wanted to say that DO was understandable, but he accidentally said it in a way that gave a wrong impression. The way he said it gave the impression that DO was somehow *not* profound, deep in meaning and knowable only to the wise. > > H: > Yes, Ananda DID state it as being and seeming deep, but what he said was still off the mark. It seems that while Ananda admitted to D. O. being profound and seeming so, yet claimed to have a clear understanding of it, and that claim is what the Buddha took exception to, the Buddha implying that D. O. is actually far more profound than Ananda realized. In DN 15, the conversation went as follows: [Ananda:] "It's amazing, lord, it's astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be." [The Buddha:] "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations. ..." ----------- Thanks Howard, that's interesting. I wonder where Ananda went wrong. He recognised that D.O. was both deep and deep-in-appearance. And then he added that, amazingly, it seemed clear to him. Perhaps he should have said that, amazingly, it was* clear enough* to him? --------------------------------------- I agree that this is a drop confusing. The Buddha, I believe, would have been able to actually observe the clarity of Ananda's knowing of D.O., and I'm guessing that Ananda underestimated the depth of D. O. and overestimated his "clear" understanding of it, despite hid recognizing it as a deep matter. ----------------------------------------- ------------- KH: > > And didn't the Buddha agree to teach the Dhamma after considering that even slow witted people could be taught some level of right understanding? > > H: > It is certainly true that the Buddha was fully aware that people of dull intelligence could be brought even to some awakening [There is that cloth-rubbing example], but his agreeing to teach the Dhamma was due to it being pointed out to him that there were people who could be fairly easily awakened, those who had "but little dust in their eyes." (MN 26) ------------------------------------------------- Thanks, I remember now. That was what persuaded him. And then he went on to teach other kinds of people as well. I don't agree with your example, however. The cloth-rubbing story was about someone who had accumulated enormous wisdom but who, in this lifetime, had some kind of mental disorder that was holding his wisdom back. -------------------------------------------- I wasn't making any assumption about the man's "accumulated deep wisdom." I don't recall that being implied in the sutta, though I don't recall the details. All I was saying was that he was a man "of slow wit," yet even for him there was an approach the brilliant Buddha provided, a non-verbal one, that did the trick for that man. ---------------------------------------------- Ken H ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100231 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, ruupakkhandha, Khandha Yamaka nilovg Dear Chew, very difficult to understand without a commentary. Do you have a clue? Nina. Op 23-aug-2009, om 13:45 heeft chewsadhu het volgende geschreven: > (Verse.26) > (a) It is ruupa. Is it matter aggregate? > Lovable-ruupa and pleasant-ruupa are ruupa, but not matter > aggregate. Matter aggregate is both ruupa and matter aggregate. > (b) It is matter aggregate. Is it ruupa? Yes. #100232 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:42 pm Subject: comprehension of Nutriment edible food truth_aerator Hello all interested, I took a commenterial explanation of comprehension of meditation subject of nutriment food and added some abhidhammic (dhatukatha) analysis. =================== Nutriment Edible Food "If, O monks, the nutriment edible food is comprehended, the lust for the five sense-objects is (thereby) comprehended. And if lust for the five sense-objects is comprehended, there is no fetter enchained by which a noble disciple might come to this world again" [anagami stage and if coupled with examination of mentality, then Arhatship] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.063.than.html Comprehension: "If the nutriment edible food is comprehended (parinnate)..." - if comprehended by the three kinds of comprehension (parinna): comprehension as the known, as investigating, and abandoning. In which way? 1. Herein one understands: What is called the "nutriment edible food" is the (solidity, cohesion/moisture, heat, motion/expansion, color, smell, taste & nutritive essence), with the other component factors of its material basis. This material octad, where does it impinge? At the tongue-sensitivity (jivha-pasada). On what is the tongue-sensitivity based? On the great properties of matter (solidity, cohesion/moisture, heat, motion/expansion), the elements. Hence on this occasion of eating, the material octad with nutritive essence as its eighth factor, tongue-sensitivity, and the conditions of it, the four great primaries, these things constitute the aggregate of materiality (rupakkhandha). The group of mental factors having contact as the fifth factor, which takes it up the aggregate of form, these are the four mental aggregates. All these phenomena constituting the 5 aggregates are just name & form" (nama-rupa). Thus he understands the deeper facts underlying the act of eating. Having defined these phenomena according to their individual functions and characteristics, he searches for their conditionality and finds it in the dependent origination (paticca-samuppada), in its ascending and descending order. By such correct understanding of mental&material phenomena with its conditions, in the instance of the nutriment edible food, the latter has in so far been comprehended (parinnata) "as known" (nata-parinna; i.e., as an object of knowledge in ultimate terms). 2. To that very instance of mental&material phenomena with its conditions, he now applies the three signata - inconstancy, unsatifactoriness, selflessness and discerns it (sammasati) by way of the (inconstancy, unsatifactoriness, selflessness, revulsion, dispassion, cessation, relinquishment) contemplations. Hereby the nutriment edible food has been comprehended by way of the investigating comprehension consisting in the full penetration of the three signata and the knowledge of discernment (sammasana-nana). 3. By discarding attachment and desire in regard to that very name & form, and comprehending it through the attainment of the path of non-returning, the nutriment edible food has been comprehended by comprehension as abandoning (pahana-parinna). For explaining the same statement in the discourse, that is, "If the nutriment edible food is comprehended, the lust for the 5 sense-objects is thereby comprehended," there is another set of three kinds of comprehension, namely: single comprehension (eka-parinna), total comprehension (sabba-parinna) and root-comprehension (mula-parinna). i. What is single comprehension? If a monk fully understands the single fact of craving for taste occurring at the sense-door of the tongue, thereby all lust for the 5 sense-objects is comprehended. Why? Because that craving arises on that occasion at the 5 sense doors. This very craving when arising at the eye door, is called "lust for visual objects" (rupa-raga); when arising at the door of the ear, etc., it is called "lust for sounds," , "lust for tastes", etc. It is as with a robber who does his misdeeds on 5 roads; if he is caught on one of these roads and subsequently beheaded, then all 5 roads will be safe. Similarly, if the craving for taste is comprehended at the tongue sense-door, the entire lust for the 5 sense-objects is thereby comprehended. This is the single comprehension. ii. What is total comprehension? In a single part of food that has been placed onto the plate, all five fold sense-desire obtains. How? By first looking at the food's clean, bright appearance, there is lust for visual objects. When poring water for the drink, there is a sound; or when chewing hard food, there is also a sound; and when enjoying such sounds, there is lust for sounds. When enjoying the food's smell, there is lust for odors. Through its pleasant taste there is lust for taste objects. When enjoying the softness of the food, there is lust for touch objects. When enjoying the percieved future health benefit of this food there is lust for mental ideas & concepts of `Health & Beauty'. Lust for food is a mental (nama) reality that comes under mental formation aggregate, cognizable object base and cognizable object element. sankharakkhando - dhammayatana - dhamma dhatu Seeing the appearance of the food by looking at it refers to mental reality, eye-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and eye-consciousness element. Shape&color of food is material quality, the visible object element, which comes under matter aggregate, visible object base and visible object element. For an eye door process: Eye-sensitivity + visible object + light + attention When liquid is poured into it or into cup, or chewing food, there is hearing a sound. The hearing of a sound refers to mental reality, ear-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and ear-consciousness element. An objective sound itself refers to material quality, sound element, which comes under matter aggregate, sound base and sound element. Hearing = Ear sensitivity + sound + space + attention The process of smelling the food&drink refers to mental reality, nose-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and nose-consciousness element. Smelling = nose-sensitivity + smell + air element + attention (manasikara) A smell itself refers to material quality, smell element, which comes under matter aggregate, smell base and smell element. The bodily feeling of roughness, softeness, hardness or temperature of the food while chewing or touching food & drink in the mouth, refers to mental reality, body-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and body-consciousness element. A smooth or rough objective surface of food is material quality, earth element, which comes under matter aggregate, tangible object base and tangible object element. Body sensitivity + tangible object + earth element + attention (manasikara) Tasting of the food & drink's taste is mental reality, tongue-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and tongue-consciousness element. Tongue sensitivity + taste + water element + attention (manasikara) The taste itself is material quality, earth/water/fire elements, which comes under matter aggregate, taste object base and taste object element. To have good or bad memory of food eaten long ago, this is mental quality, mental factor of perception which comes under perception aggregate, cognizable base and cognizable element. To be happy or sad about eating food refers to mental reality that comes under mental formation aggregate, cognizable base and cognizable element When in such a way the food is considered with mindfulness and clear comprehension (sati-sampajanna), and is being eaten without greed and attachment, then there is a total comprehension of it. iii. What is root comprehension? The nutriment edible food is the root or basis of the lust for the 5 sense-objects. Why? Because when the former exists, the latter arises. It is told that in Ceylon during the famine at the time of the brahman Tissa's rebellion, for 12 years husband and wife did not even look at each other with sensuous thoughts. And why? Because of the scarcity of food. But when the famine had subsided, the whole isle of Ceylon was like a single large festival of children's birth celebrations. If nutriment is thus comprehended as being the root, also the lust for the 5 sense-objects is hereby comprehended. This is root comprehension. ========= With metta, Alex #100233 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 62: Maharahulovada Sutta nilovg Dear Chew, I like your persistent questions, they inspire me. I start with your last remark. Op 23-aug-2009, om 13:24 heeft chewsadhu het volgende geschreven: It seems like all explanations can be accepted. But, what is actually told by the Buddha in that particular Sutta? There are more people like to study Sutta, because it is more easy to fit in as what they understand to. I am not saying that their elaborations not correct. As I said, Nina's explanation and Ken O's explanation can be accepted by me. It would be better, if I can know what is the meaning that mention in that particular Sutta by the Buddha exactly. ------ N: Chew, you make a very good point here. Study more suttas, a crossreference on a specific subject, this can help. The Commentaries also help. The teaching of anattaa is the teaching of Buddhas in particular. What can help us to understand anattaa, not in general, but just now in daily life. Not as an abstract teaching. Whatever occurs, including our correspondance, your reading, thinking, all this occurs because citta is conditioned in that way. A very good friend who died, Peter Swan, once said to Lodewijk: it all amounts to anattaa, the whole teaching is anattaa. This impressed Lodewijk very much. -------- Ch: > E.g. a yogi can practice metta bhavana for 10 to 15 minutes before > one practice the vipassana method. This metta bhavana can help to > calm down and also soften the mind. Recollection of death, if > practice in daily life also can help in many sense. Etc. ------- > N: Practice of Metta is kusala, so is recollection of death. The > person who cultivates jhaana knows the right conditions to make the > mind soft and workable. For vipassana it is different. In the Application of Mindfulness of citta we read that one should know citta with lobha, citta without lobha, citta with dosa, citta without dosa, citta with moha, citta without moha. See, one may feel annoyed, irritated. This is dosa, and it is a reality. It has a characteristic that should be known, not ignored. If akusala is not known as just a dhamma, we continue to take it for self. The truth of anattaa can be realized in daily life, even when we shout. For vipassana there is no preparation, no idea of doing this first for fifteen minutes to make the mind soft. Vipassana is a matter of understanding, nothing else. We have to understand our defilements. -------- > Ch: Let's say, one may say the head hair, body hair, etc, that > appear in the Maharahulovada Sutta, is the Kaayagataasati. The > other also may say they are just the base for the insight > meditation to note on the earth-element. One may say the space- > element that mention in that Sutta, is the Aakaasa kasin.a. The > other may say another way. Etc. ------- N: We do not need to name it kayagatasati, no need to classify anything. Just wait and see what appears by conditions. It can be a surprise and that is good. It shows the anattaness. Nina. #100234 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM 40 kammatthana objects: How does one choose & develop them? nilovg Dear Alex, an important remark. And I agree about tabba: should be, but it also can be weaker: can be. might be. Op 23-aug-2009, om 3:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > And how long does it take to learn the difference between kusala > and akusala citta? Is it really that long and hard? ------ N: Yes, in theory not hard, but right when it appears very hard: it can be so similar, sweet lobha covering up and seeming to be kusala. In practice real hard, especially the subtle forms of akusala delude us so easily. Maybe you can also give some daily life examples, it can be interesting. Nina. #100235 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: VsM 40 kammatthana objects: How does one choose & develop them? truth_aerator >--- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Maybe you can also give some daily life examples, it > can be interesting. > Nina. Dear Nina, and all, Regarding metta or other subjects? To start with, Patisambhidamagga seems to say that one thinks "may all ... be happy" and for few days I did this in Vipassana retreat before doing vipassana for the rest of the month. Certainly this combats other types of thoughts, the hateful ones. Furthermore there are contemplations about aggregates (with what are you angry with?), ownership of kamma (I hear his angry words as a kamma-vipaka and I should not make more bad kamma for me and him), the constant change of aggregates (the past moment no longer exists, and the present one is not the same as that moment. Those aggregates don't exist now), etc etc. Or one can resolute other beings or events into elements. Just like the earth, water, fire, air, space doesn't get angry when dirt and other things are thrown into it - so one shouldn't be angry when this, itself insentient physical body made of those 5 primary natural elements, is harassed, hurt, or sickened. Rupa is one, nama is other. Mental Reaction to physical is unnessesery. One shouldn't take elements (or anything) as self. Few cents. With metta, Alex #100236 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:52 pm Subject: 4 x Good! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: 4 Hard-core-real Lasting Advantages: A deity once asked the Buddha What is good even when one is old? What is good when established? What is human's most precious treasure? What is hard for thieves to steal? The blessed Buddha answered: 1: Morality is good even when one is old! 2: Faith is good when firmly established! 3: Understanding is human's most precious treasure! 4: Merit well earned is hard for thieves to steal! <...> Source: Samyutta Nikaya I 36 Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, <...> #100237 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (3) sarahprocter... Dear Chew, Nina, Ken O & all, ***** Nina: When I read the Atthasalini, the Atthasalini uses many concepts also to explain about realities..... the space in the nose is the unconditioned space or just an example to help us to understand reality? Sujin: Do we have to think that space is conditioned or unconditioned, but it's there as space. Nina: We don't have to think.... Sujin: But there is space. Nina: There is space in the nose, but do we have to know whether it is unconditioned space? Sujin: That is thinking, that is thinking.... Nina: Yeah, so we can just leave it.... Sujin: If there wasn't space, we couldn't smell. Nina: Yes, so we can just leave it and not specify 'this is unconcitioned space.' It's just the example that I wrote or read about in the Atthasalini. Sujin: So can one know whether it's conditioned or not conditioned? Or understand that it's a reality? Can it be directly experienced? Or only the rupa which is not space can be experienced? Nina: But the smell is a rupa.... Sujin: It does not matter, but what can be directly experienced is the smell and the nose consciousness. Nina: The reality, yes, but not a concept. So like 'nose' is a concept. Sujin: At the moment of experiencing the smell, do you have to think of concept, pannatti, of it? So, just develop understanding! ***** Metta Sarah ======== #100238 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Dear pt, #100025 on meridiens, energy flows, rupas etc --- On Sat, 15/8/09, ptaus1 wrote: >> S: We need to remember that bodily feeling is also nama. It refers to the vedana accompanying body consciousness (nama also) which merely experiences the tangible object with either pleasant or unpleasant feeling. In other words, although we refer to it as 'bodily feeling', it is still a 'mental' or nama feeling. >pt: Ah yes, this is easy to forget. .... S: And important to clearly appreciate the distinction between namas and rupas and that all feelings of any kind are namas. The only tangible objects experienced through the body-sense are hardness/softness, temperature and motion .... S: >> We know from our Buddhist studies that there are four causes of rupas in the body - citta, kamma, temperature and nutriment. So medicine and meridian work can assist or be a condition for the health of rupas, but we never know what past kamma has been accumulated. > >> How about you, pt, you seem to have quite an interest in this area too? >pt: Well initially, I understood that the general advice in Theravada on this topic was to ignore it because, as you said, it's not the goal directly, and because it's said that some people experience it, but most just don't. .... S: Some people experience what? What is taken for energy in the body, can only be tangible object and thinking about it. The feelings are all mental. .... >Lately though it's becoming a bit hard to ignore it, since it seems to appear all the time. In particular, samatha practice seems to bring it up a lot, so I thought the safe thing to do would be to at least learn something about it in case something goes wrong. .... S: As we read about in the suttas, what we tend to dwell on, so we incline towards. In other words, if you dwell on the 'energy channels', for example, so it will seem that they appear all the time. What is samatha practice? It can only ever be the development of kusala calm. At moments of dana, sila or bhavana, there is samatha. At moments of focussing on the meridiens, what kind of kusala is there? What is wholesome about the reflection? 'Something' goes wrong whenever akusala cittas arise. When akusala is taken for kusala and followed as being a kusala practice, this is most dangerous, I think. .... S: >> With regard to the four elements, I think the main point to remember is that what is experienced through the body-sense is only hardness, temperature and motion. (Water/cohesion is only experienced through the mind-door). So when there is understanding of hardness or temperature as appearing now, there's no thought of winds, meridiens, channels or anything else. Just the pathavi or tejo rupa appearing for a moment and then gone. >pt: This is what I was hoping to hear, because the info I came across so far from non-Theravada sources seemed to imply that these channels and meridians are some special kind of matter or body, so it was a bit confusing. .... S: Yes, various namas, rupas and thinking about concepts mixed together. This doesn't mean it doesn't have value, but it's helpful to undersand the realities experienced now. ... >S: > I'd be very happy to continue this discussion with you. Let me know your further thoughts. >pt: Thank you, that'll be great. I'll gradually post in this thread as I come up with (hopefully) meaningful questions. .... S: I think the most useful thing is the development of detachment from the idea of 'my body', 'my feelings', 'my practice'. Just conditioned dhammas which are anatta. I'll look forward to any further discussion/questions. Metta Sarah ======= #100239 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:03 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (45) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 5. Subtle Ruupas produced by Kamma ( continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (IV, Sa.laayatana-vagga, Part III, Kindred Sayings about Womankind, 3, § 34, Growth): "Increasing in five growths, monks, the ariyan woman disciple increases in the ariyan growth, takes hold of the essential, takes hold of the better. What five? She grows in confidence (saddhaa), grows in virtue (siila), in learning, in generosity, in wisdom. Making such growth, monks, she takes hold of the essential, she takes hold of the better...." The "Atthasaalinii" (II, Book II, Ch III, 321) explains that women and men have different features, that they are different in outer appearance, in occupation and deportment. The feminine features, etc. are conditioned by the ruupa that is the femininity faculty. The "Atthasaalinii" states about these features: "...They are produced in course of process because of that faculty. When there is seed the tree grows because of the seed, and is replete with branch and twig and stands filling the sky; so when there is the feminine controlling faculty called femininity, feminine features, etc., come to be.... "” The same is said about the masculinity faculty. Femininity and masculinity are "controlling faculties". A controlling faculty or indriya is a "leader" in its own field, it has a predominant influence. The controlling faculties of femininity and masculinity permeate the whole body so that they are manifested in the outward appearance and features of a woman and a man. The "Atthasaalinii" (same section, 322) gives the following definitions of the femininity faculty and the masculinity faculty: "Of these two controlling faculties the feminine has the characteristic of (knowing) the state of woman, the function of showing "this is woman", the manifestation which is the cause of femininity in feature, mark, occupation, deportment. The masculinity controlling faculty has the characteristic of (knowing) the state of man, the function of showing "this is man", the manifestation which is the cause of masculinity in feature, etc. [Note 1]". These two faculties which, as the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 58) explains, are "coextensive with" or pervade the whole body, are not known by visual cognition but only by mind-cognition. But, as the "Atthasaalinii" (321) states, their characteristic features, etc., which are conditioned by their respective faculties, can be known by visual cognition as well as by mind-cognition. [Note 1] See also DhammasangaĂąi § 633, 634 and Visuddhimagga XIV, 58. ------------------------------ Chapter 5. Subtle Ruupas produced by Kamma to be continued. with metta, Han #100240 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:18 am Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (45) hantun1 Dear All, I have listed gross ruupas, subtle ruupas, and kammaja-ruupas for my own information, which I am now sharing with the readers. O.laarika Ruupas (Gross Ruupas) (12) (1) Pathavii = earth element (2) Tejo = fire element (3) Vaayo = air element (4) Cakkhu-pasaada = sensitive part of the eye (5) Sota-pasaada = sensitive part of the ear (6) Ghaana-pasaada = sensitive part of the nose (7) Jivhaa-pasaada = sensitive part of the tongue (8) Kaaya-pasaada = sensitive part of the body (9) Rupaa-ramma.na = visible form (va.n.na) (10) Saddaa-ramma.na = sound (sadda) (11) Gandhaa-ramma.na = smell (gandha) (12) Rasaa-ramma.na = taste (rasa) Sukhuma Ruupas (Subtle Ruupas) (16) (1) Aapo = water element (2) Itthi-bhaava = femininity (3) Purisa-bhaava = masculinity (4) Hadaya-vatthu = heart-base (5) Jivita-ruupa = life-faculty (6) Aahaara-ruupa = nutriment (ojaa) (7) Pariccheda-ruupa = space element (aakaasa-dhaatu) (8) Kaaya-vi~n~natti = bodily intimation (9) Vaci-vi~n~natti = vocal intimation (10) Ruupassa-lahutaa = physical lightness or buoyancy (11) Ruupassa-mudutaa = physical elasticity or malleability (12) Ruupassa-kamma~n~nataa = physical adaptability (13) Upacaaya-ruupa = arising of ruupa at the moment of conception (14) Santati-ruupa = subsequent arising of ruupas throughout the life (15) Jarataa-ruupa = decay (16) Aniccataa-ruupa = dissolution or impermanence ============================== Kammaja-ekaja-ruupas (9) produced only by Kamma (1) Cakkhu-pasaada = sensitive part of the eye (2) Sota-pasaada = sensitive part of the ear (3) Ghaana-pasaada = sensitive part of the nose (4) Jivhaa-pasaada = sensitive part of the tongue (5) Kaaya-pasaada = sensitive part of the body (6) Itthi-bhaava = femininity (7) Purisa-bhaava = masculinity (8) Hadaya-vatthu = heart-base (9) Jivita-ruupa = life-faculty Kammaja-anekaja-ruupas (9) produced by Kamma, Citta, Utu, Aahaara (1) Pathavii = earth element (2) Aapo = water element (3) Tejo = fire element (4) Vaayo = air element (5) Rupaa-ramma.na = visible form (va.n.na) (6) Gandhaa-ramma.na = smell (gandha) (7) Rasaa-ramma.na = taste (rasa) (8) Aahaara-ruupa = nutriment (ojaa) (9) Pariccheda-ruupa = space element (aakaasa-dhaatu) 9 kammaja-ekaja-ruupas + 9 kammaja-anekaja-ruupas = 18 kammaja-ruupas. ============================== with metta, Han #100241 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:10 am Subject: Re: why Sujin recommends dry insight rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Robert > > (100009) > > Visuddimagga about anapanasati: > > ""159. Having thus indicated an abode that is suitable to the three seasons, suitable to humour and temperament, {43} and favourable to the development of mindfulness of breathing, he then said sits down, etc., indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation. Then he said having folded his legs crosswise, etc., to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. ... > > 160. Herein, crosswise is the sitting position with the thighs fully locked. Folded: having locked. Set his body erect: having placed the upper part of the body erect with the eighteen backbones resting end to end. For when he is seated like this, his skin, flesh and sinews are not twisted, and so the feelings that would arise moment by moment if they were twisted do not arise. That being so, his mind becomes unified, and the meditation subject, instead of collapsing, attains to growth and increase. > > ""endquote > > =============== > > I don't read this as saying that the development of samatha with anapanasati as object is dependent on posture, i.e., a sitting posture. > Dear Jon Ok, to me it indicates that having an erect posture was recommended for this object. However, when your read that passage it indicates that posture plays no role, is that correct? Could you elaborate. Robert #100242 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:51 am Subject: Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (3) szmicio Dear Sarah, I dont understand this unconditioned space element. how it's refering to akasa ruupa? Can you give me some short explanation? best wishes Lukas > Dear Chew, Nina, Ken O & all, > > ***** > Nina: When I read the Atthasalini, the Atthasalini uses many concepts also to explain about realities..... the space in the nose is the unconditioned space or just an example to help us to understand reality? > > Sujin: Do we have to think that space is conditioned or unconditioned, but it's there as space. > > Nina: We don't have to think.... > > Sujin: But there is space. > > Nina: There is space in the nose, but do we have to know whether it is unconditioned space? > > Sujin: That is thinking, that is thinking.... > > Nina: Yeah, so we can just leave it.... > > Sujin: If there wasn't space, we couldn't smell. > > Nina: Yes, so we can just leave it and not specify 'this is unconcitioned space.' It's just the example that I wrote or read about in the Atthasalini. > > Sujin: So can one know whether it's conditioned or not conditioned? Or understand that it's a reality? Can it be directly experienced? Or only the rupa which is not space can be experienced? > > Nina: But the smell is a rupa.... > > Sujin: It does not matter, but what can be directly experienced is the smell and the nose consciousness. > > Nina: The reality, yes, but not a concept. So like 'nose' is a concept. > > Sujin: At the moment of experiencing the smell, do you have to think of concept, pannatti, of it? So, just develop understanding! > ***** > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > #100243 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:36 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 3, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Some people become discouraged when they think that they cannot attain enlightenment in this life, and then they give up the development of satipatthĺna. Then again the clinging to the concept of self is in the way; they have an idea of "I want to try". The understanding of this moment leads to the goal. "Develop it now, be aware now", Acharn often said. One may wonder how one can be aware at this moment. The least we can do is to find out more about the reality appearing now. Seeing arises naturally at this moment. Seeing sees visible object, all that appears through the eyesense. We should not have any intention to concentrate on seeing, it sees now. We discussed the nĺmas and rúpas appearing through the six doors, so that we would have more understanding of them. Intellectual understanding is the right condition for direct awareness and understanding of them which can arise later on. "Just begin again and again, so that there is more understanding of realities", Acharn said. The direct understanding of a reality such as seeing is not thinking about it, but it is pańńĺ that knows the characteristic of seeing as a reality. Acharn remarked: "All realities are described in the texts, but how many times does sati arise? Develop it. The book is there, but the moment understanding develops is the most important. People learn Abhidhamma without knowing its real purpose, namely, the development of understanding of realities. They want to learn like scholars. Pańńĺ can know when there is sati, but it has to develop to the degree of understanding the reality that sati is aware of. Whenever awareness arises, there must be an object awareness is aware of. At that moment pańńĺ can begin to develop and understand that object. Realities have to be understood as nĺma and as rúpa. Pańńĺ is like a bud which will appear on a tree. One does not know where and when it will appear. We should not care when it will appear; what about the understanding of this moment? If there is no understanding of this moment, develop it now." A most important lesson we learnt was: not to care about it when insight knowledge will arise; not to cling to any result of the development of understanding. We study the Dhamma and we consider realities in order to have more understanding of them. "Awareness may arise now or later on", Acharn reminded us. Again, we should not mind when it will arise, it has its own conditions. It is like the bud on a tree, when it is the right time nobody can stop it from appearing and then it will bloom. When insight knowledge arises realities appear very clearly as not self. There is no self and no world at that moment. Thus, how could anyone attain it while there is an idea of self who is trying to attain it? Acharn explained that insight knowledge is the experience of the nature of anattĺ of realities. ******* Nina. #100244 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (30, 31) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 30. Walshe DN 33.1.11(30) 'Four things to be realised by seeing (sacchikara.niiyaa dhammaa): *1073 (a) former lives, to be realised by recollection (satiyaa) *1074 (b) passing-away and rearising to be realised by the [divine] eye, *1075 (c) the eight deliverances, to be realised with the mental body (kaayena), *1076 (d) the destruction of the corruptions, to be realised by wisdom. (Cattaaro sacchikara.niiyaa dhammaa - pubbenivaaso satiyaa sacchikara.niiyo; sattaana.m cutuupapaato cakkhunaa sacchikara.niiyo; a.t.tha vimokkhaa kaayena sacchikara.niiyaa; aasavaana.m khayo pa~n~naaya sacchikara.niiyo.) -------- N: As to realisation, sacchikara.niiya, the co. explains that this is by attainment. As to the first realisation, the sutta states that this is by sati. Sati remembers, is non-forgetful in the wholesome way. As to the second realisation, the decease and rebirth of beings, this is the divine eye. As to the third one, the eight deliverances, vimokkhas, this is realised by the body, and this means the mental body of the conascent naamas according to the commentary. Three of these eight deliverances are connected with ruupajhaana, four refer to aruupajhaana, and the eighth is cessation (nirodha samaapatti). This is the temporary suspension of all mental activities, acquired by the anaagaamii or arahat who has also developed ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana and obtained mastery (vasii) in them. As to the fourth one, the destruction of the aasavas, this is realised by the knowledge of the fruition of arahatship, according to the commentary. co Pali: Sacchikara.niiyaati paccakkhakara.nena ceva pa.tilaabhena ca sacchikaatabbaa. Cakkhunaati dibbacakkhunaa. Kaayenaati sahajaatanaamakaayena. Pa~n~naayaati arahattaphala~naa.nena. -------------------------------------------------- sutta 31: Walshe DN 33.1.11(31) 'Four floods (oghaa): sensuality, becoming, [wrong] views, ignorance. (Cattaaro oghaa - kaamogho, bhavogho, di.t.thogho, avijjogho.) --------- N: The co states that the floods immerse beings in the cycle. The flood of sensuality, kaamogha, is desire for the five strands of sensepleasure. The flood of becoming, bhavogha, is desire for becoming in the planes which are the results of ruupajhaana and of aruupajhaana. Here, there is desire for jhaana accompanied by eternity belief. As to the flood of wrong view, di.t.thogha, these are sixtytwo kinds of wrong view. N: These have been explained in the Brahmajaalasutta. -------- We should realized that every time we like visible object, sound, and the other sense objects, we are immersed by the flood of sensedesire. We should see the danger of the floods. ----------- Co Pali:Oghaati va.t.tasmi.m satte ohananti osiidaapentiiti oghaa. Tattha pa~ncakaamagu.niko raago kaamogho. Ruupaaruupabhavesu chandaraago bhavogho. Tathaa jhaananikanti sassatadi.t.thisahagato ca raago. Dvaasa.t.thi di.t.thiyo di.t.thogho. ******* Nina. #100245 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] comprehension of Nutriment edible food nilovg Dear Alex, you gave a long post with a quote from the commentary. A suggestion: can you divide this in small parts and also add your own comments on this? Nina. Op 23-aug-2009, om 19:42 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > I took a commenterial explanation of comprehension of meditation > subject of nutriment food and added some abhidhammic (dhatukatha) > analysis. > > =================== > Nutriment Edible Food > "If, O monks, the nutriment edible food is comprehended, the lust > for the five sense-objects is (thereby) comprehended. And if lust > for the five sense-objects is comprehended, there is no fetter > enchained by which a noble disciple might come to this world > again" [anagami stage and if coupled with examination of mentality, > then Arhatship] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.063.than.html > > Comprehension: "If the nutriment edible food is comprehended > (parinnate)..." - if comprehended by the three kinds of > comprehension (parinna): comprehension as the known, as > investigating, and abandoning. In which way? #100246 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (45) nilovg Dear Han, Op 24-aug-2009, om 5:18 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > (13) Upacaaya-ruupa = arising of ruupa at the moment of conception > (14) Santati-ruupa = subsequent arising of ruupas throughout the life > (15) Jarataa-ruupa = decay > (16) Aniccataa-ruupa = dissolution or impermanence ------- N: When you come to these you will see that these refer to ruupa at its arising moment, the moments of its presence, the moment it is near to falling away, the moment of its dissolution. This is the explanation in the ultimate sense. But there is also an explanation in a conventional way in the Atthasaalinii, and this is as you have rendered here. ------ Nina. #100247 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (3) nilovg Dear Lukas, The lesson I get from this discussion: do not think and speculate too much: is it a concept or reality. Develop understanding of the reality that appears now, the reality that can be experienced now. That is the goal of the teachings. Nina. Op 24-aug-2009, om 7:51 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > I dont understand this unconditioned space element. how it's > refering to akasa ruupa? #100248 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (45) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation, which is very useful for me. > (13) Upacaaya-ruupa = arising of ruupa at the moment of conception > (14) Santati-ruupa = subsequent arising of ruupas throughout the life > (15) Jarataa-ruupa = decay > (16) Aniccataa-ruupa = dissolution or impermanence ------- N: When you come to these you will see that these refer to ruupa at its arising moment, the moments of its presence, the moment it is near to falling away, the moment of its dissolution. This is the explanation in the ultimate sense. But there is also an explanation in a conventional way in the Atthasaalinii, and this is as you have rendered here. ------------------------------ Han: Can I ask you another question on this subject? In AN 3.47 Sankhata lakkha.na sutta, the Pali text says: (1) uppaado pa~n~naayati, (2) vayo pa~n~naayati, (3) .thitassa a~n~nathatta.m pa~n~naayati. Based on this, can I say (1) uppaada lakkha.na is manifested by upacaaya-ruupa; (2) .thitassa a~n~nathattaa is manifested by santati-ruupa and jarataa-ruupa, and (3) vaya lakkha.na is manifested by aniccataa-ruupa? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #100249 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:23 am Subject: Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (3) szmicio Dear Nina, Thank you very much :D This is the reality now that thinks, isnt it? But we are forgetful all the day. We belive it's true. I will appreciate if you and Sarah remind me more of it. My best wishes Lukas > The lesson I get from this discussion: do not think and speculate too > much: is it a concept or reality. Develop understanding of the > reality that appears now, the reality that can be experienced now. > That is the goal of the teachings. #100250 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:30 am Subject: Re: comprehension of Nutriment edible food szmicio Dear Alex. Thank you for sharing this great Dhamma. I am happy I have occasion in my life to hear Dhamma in datailed way. Only Dhamma can condition right understanding. There is hearing the Dhamma and then we dont know what will be next. Just listen and leave all to conditions. In the time of Buddha people come to the Teacher, sit on one side, and ask a question. Then Buddha gave them a Dhamma, then hearing that they were able to understand. My best wishes Lukas > I took a commenterial explanation of comprehension of meditation subject of nutriment food and added some abhidhammic (dhatukatha) analysis. > > =================== > Nutriment Edible Food > "If, O monks, the nutriment edible food is comprehended, the lust for the five sense-objects is (thereby) comprehended. And if lust for the five sense-objects is comprehended, there is no fetter enchained by which a noble disciple might come to this world again" [anagami stage and if coupled with examination of mentality, then Arhatship] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.063.than.html > > Comprehension: "If the nutriment edible food is comprehended (parinnate)..." - if comprehended by the three kinds of comprehension (parinna): comprehension as the known, as investigating, and abandoning. In which way? > > 1. Herein one understands: What is called the "nutriment edible food" is the (solidity, cohesion/moisture, heat, motion/expansion, color, smell, taste & nutritive essence), with the other component factors of its material basis. This material octad, where does it impinge? At the tongue-sensitivity (jivha-pasada). On what is the tongue-sensitivity based? On the great properties of matter (solidity, cohesion/moisture, heat, motion/expansion), the elements. Hence on > this occasion of eating, the material octad with nutritive essence as its eighth factor, tongue-sensitivity, and the conditions of it, the four great primaries, these things constitute the aggregate of materiality (rupakkhandha). The group of mental factors having contact as the fifth factor, which takes it up the aggregate of form, these are the four mental aggregates. All these phenomena constituting the 5 aggregates are just name & form" (nama-rupa). Thus he understands the deeper facts underlying the act of eating. > Having defined these phenomena according to their individual functions and characteristics, he searches for their conditionality and finds it in the dependent origination (paticca-samuppada), in its ascending and descending order. > > By such correct understanding of mental&material phenomena with its conditions, in the instance of the nutriment edible food, the latter has in so far been comprehended (parinnata) "as known" (nata-parinna; i.e., as an object of knowledge in ultimate terms). > > 2. To that very instance of mental&material phenomena with its conditions, he now applies the three signata - inconstancy, unsatifactoriness, selflessness and discerns it (sammasati) by way of the (inconstancy, unsatifactoriness, selflessness, revulsion, dispassion, cessation, relinquishment) contemplations. Hereby the nutriment edible food has been comprehended by way of the investigating comprehension consisting in the full penetration of the three signata and the knowledge of discernment (sammasana-nana). > > 3. By discarding attachment and desire in regard to that very name & form, and comprehending it through the attainment of the path of non-returning, the nutriment edible food has been comprehended by comprehension as abandoning (pahana-parinna). > > For explaining the same statement in the discourse, that is, "If the nutriment edible food is comprehended, the lust for the 5 sense-objects is thereby comprehended," there is another set of three kinds of comprehension, namely: single comprehension (eka-parinna), total comprehension (sabba-parinna) and root-comprehension (mula-parinna). > > i. What is single comprehension? If a monk fully understands the single fact of craving for taste occurring at the sense-door of the tongue, thereby all lust for the 5 sense-objects is comprehended. Why? Because that craving arises on that occasion at the 5 sense doors. This very craving when arising at the eye door, is called "lust for visual objects" (rupa-raga); when arising at the door > of the ear, etc., it is called "lust for sounds," , "lust for tastes", etc. It is as with a robber who does his misdeeds on 5 roads; if he is caught on one of these roads and subsequently beheaded, then all 5 roads will be safe. Similarly, if the craving for taste is comprehended at the tongue sense-door, the entire lust for the 5 sense-objects is thereby comprehended. This is the single comprehension. > > ii. What is total comprehension? > In a single part of food that has been placed onto the plate, all five fold sense-desire obtains. How? > > By first looking at the food's clean, bright appearance, there is lust for visual objects. When poring water for the drink, there is a sound; or when chewing hard food, there is also a sound; and when enjoying such sounds, there is lust for sounds. When enjoying the food's smell, there is lust for odors. Through its pleasant taste there is lust for taste objects. When enjoying the softness of the food, there is lust for touch objects. When enjoying the percieved future health benefit of this food there is lust for mental ideas & > concepts of `Health & Beauty'. > > Lust for food is a mental (nama) reality that comes under mental formation aggregate, cognizable object base and cognizable object element. sankharakkhando - dhammayatana - dhamma dhatu > > Seeing the appearance of the food by looking at it refers to mental reality, eye-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and eye-consciousness element. > > Shape&color of food is material quality, the visible object element, which comes under matter aggregate, visible object base and visible object element. For an eye door process: Eye-sensitivity + visible object + light + attention > > When liquid is poured into it or into cup, or chewing food, there is hearing a sound. The hearing of a sound refers to mental reality, ear-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and ear-consciousness element. > > An objective sound itself refers to material quality, sound element, which comes under matter aggregate, sound base and sound element. Hearing = Ear sensitivity + sound + space + attention > > The process of smelling the food&drink refers to mental reality, > nose-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and nose-consciousness element. Smelling = nose-sensitivity + smell + air element + attention (manasikara) > > A smell itself refers to material quality, smell element, which comes under matter aggregate, smell base and smell element. > > The bodily feeling of roughness, softeness, hardness or temperature of the food while chewing or touching food & drink in the mouth, refers to mental reality, body-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and body-consciousness element. > > A smooth or rough objective surface of food is material quality, earth element, which comes under matter aggregate, tangible object base and tangible object element. Body sensitivity + tangible object + earth element + attention (manasikara) > > Tasting of the food & drink's taste is mental reality, tongue-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and tongue-consciousness element. Tongue sensitivity + taste + water element + attention (manasikara) > > The taste itself is material quality, earth/water/fire elements, which comes under matter aggregate, taste object base and taste object element. > > To have good or bad memory of food eaten long ago, this is mental quality, mental factor of perception which comes under perception aggregate, cognizable base and cognizable element. > > To be happy or sad about eating food refers to mental reality that comes under mental formation aggregate, cognizable base and cognizable element > > When in such a way the food is considered with mindfulness and clear > comprehension (sati-sampajanna), and is being eaten without greed and > attachment, then there is a total comprehension of it. > > iii. What is root comprehension? > The nutriment edible food is the root or basis of the lust for the 5 > sense-objects. Why? Because when the former exists, the latter arises. It is told that in Ceylon during the famine at the time of the brahman Tissa's rebellion, for 12 years husband and wife did not even look at each other with sensuous thoughts. And why? Because of the scarcity of food. But when the famine had subsided, the whole isle of Ceylon was like a single large festival of children's birth celebrations. If nutriment is thus comprehended as being the root, also the lust for the 5 sense-objects is hereby comprehended. This is root comprehension. > > ========= > > > > With metta, > > > Alex > #100251 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (3) nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 24-aug-2009, om 13:23 heeft szmicio het volgende geschreven: > This is the reality now that thinks, isnt it? But we are forgetful > all the day. We believe it's true. ------- N: Certainly, even now when I am writing back to you, I am thinking. 'I am", you have got me there! And thinking with lobha and maana: see, I am giving a good answer. Thank you for reminding me. ------- > > L:I will appreciate if you and Sarah remind me more of it. ------ N: Same, same, if you remind me. Nina. #100252 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is tension in abhidhamma terms? nilovg Dear pt, Op 22-aug-2009, om 16:26 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > pt: > So, then what is the purpose of pure octads? I mean what do they do > when they arise alone (without any other rupas in the kalapa) if > they neither change the posture nor maintain it? ------- N: The pure octads are very basic for the bodily phenomena to keep going. These basic units are needed from birth to death. They are produced from the time of the first bhavanga on, when there is no question of the assuming of any posture. The newborn being is very frail, very tiny. --------- > > > N: no 5: lightness etc. condiiton suppleness and smoothness of > > gestures while conveying a meaning. > > pt: > Yep, I think I got that about the rupa number 5, but I was > wondering about rupa number 2 - I mean, how does it convey a > meaning without bodily expressions and gestures (which happen > through the 3 vikara rupas, like in rupa number 5)? ------- N: No, they happen through kaya vi~n~natti ruupa. The lightness etc. give it extra smoothness. It is good to learn about all these ruupas that play a part, because the whole day we cling to the idea of self who gesticulates, waves to greet someone, or points to something. Nina. #100253 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (45) nilovg Dear Han, Op 24-aug-2009, om 11:09 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > In AN 3.47 Sankhata lakkha.na sutta, the Pali text says: > (1) uppaado pa~n~naayati, > (2) vayo pa~n~naayati, > (3) .thitassa a~n~nathatta.m pa~n~naayati. > > Based on this, can I say (1) uppaada lakkha.na is manifested by > upacaaya-ruupa; (2) .thitassa a~n~nathattaa is manifested by > santati-ruupa and jarataa-ruupa, and (3) vaya lakkha.na is > manifested by aniccataa-ruupa? ------- N: As you say, they are manifestations. They are characteristics of conditioned realities. The Co states that uppaado appears at the moment of arising, chaara (decay) at the moment of presence, and vayo at the moment of ceasing. The co states that the lakkha.na are not sankhata and sankhata are not the lakkhana. They are not concrete ruupas, but just characteristics. ----- Nina. #100254 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM 40 kammatthana objects: How does one choose & develop them? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 23-aug-2009, om 21:36 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Furthermore there are contemplations about aggregates (with what > are you angry with?), ownership of kamma (I hear his angry words as > a kamma-vipaka and I should not make more bad kamma for me and > him), the constant change of aggregates (the past moment no longer > exists, and the present one is not the same as that moment. Those > aggregates don't exist now), etc etc. > > Or one can resolute other beings or events into elements. ------ N: This is correct according to the book, I read about this in the Visuddhimagga. But I meant actually examples from your own daily life, your own experiences as to kusala and akusala that alternate extremely rapidly. For example, when I am generous, this is alternated with thoughts of: generous 'me'. Or: I want to be a good person. Or, conceit coming in so soon after kusala citta: clinging to the importance of self or comparing with others who are not so good. Or enthusiasm for Dhamma: how I like this experience of being inspired; clinging again. Nina. #100255 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (45) hantun1 Dear Nina, N: As you say, they are manifestations. They are characteristics of conditioned realities. The Co states that uppaado appears at the moment of arising, chaara (decay) at the moment of presence, and vayo at the moment of ceasing. The co states that the lakkha.na are not sankhata and sankhata are not the lakkhana. They are not concrete ruupas, but just characteristics. Han: Thank you very much for your very clear explanation. I have noted them carefully, especially the important points: "The lakkha.na are not sankhata and sankhata are not the lakkhana. They are not concrete ruupas, but just characteristics." Respectfully, Han #100256 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:51 pm Subject: Re: space, ruupakkhandha, Khandha Yamaka chewsadhu Dear Nina, (Verse.26) (Ka) ruupam. ruupakkhandhoti? Piyaruupam. saataruupam. ruupam., na ruupakkhandho. Ruupakkhandho ruupa~nceva ruupakkhandho ca. (Kha) ruupakkhandho ruupanti? Aamantaa. (Verse.26) (a) It is ruupa. Is it matter aggregate? Lovable-ruupa and pleasant-ruupa are ruupa, but not matter aggregate. Matter aggregate is both ruupa and matter aggregate. (b) It is matter aggregate. Is it ruupa? Yes. In Khandha Yamaka, piyaruupa (lovable-ruupa/attractive-ruupa) saataruupa (pleasant-ruupa), which are the 81 mundane consciousness and its concomitants, are called ruupa; but piyaruupa and saataruupa are not called ruupakkhandha (matter aggregate). And ruupakkhandha is called ruupa and also ruupakkhandha. The term 'ruupa' is wider than 'ruupakkhandha' in Khandha Yamaka. That's why in the statement (b), ruupakkhandha is also can be called ruupa. I heard Sayadaw said that, in the Sutta, ruupakkhandha is also included in the piyaruupa and saataruupa. But in Khandha Yamaka, ruupakkhandha is excluded in the piyaruupa and saataruupa. Thanks and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100257 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] comprehension of Nutriment edible food truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > you gave a long post with a quote from the commentary. A suggestion: > can you divide this in small parts and also add your own comments on > this? > Nina. Dear Nina, can you please double check my analysis of process of eating using dhatukatha style. Lust for food is a mental (nama) reality that comes under mental formation aggregate, cognizable object base and cognizable object element. sankharakkhando - dhammayatana - dhamma dhatu Seeing the appearance of the food by looking at it refers to mental reality, eye-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and eye-consciousness element. Shape&color of food is material quality, the visible object element, which comes under matter aggregate, visible object base and visible object element. When liquid is poured into it or into cup, or chewing food, there is hearing a sound. The hearing of a sound refers to mental reality, ear-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and ear-consciousness element. An objective sound itself refers to material quality, sound element, which comes under matter aggregate, sound base and sound element. The process of smelling the food&drink refers to mental reality, nose-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and nose-consciousness element. A smell itself refers to material quality, smell element, which comes under matter aggregate, smell base and smell element. The feeling of roughness, softeness, hardness or temperature of the food while chewing or touching food & drink in the mouth, refers to mental reality, body-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and body-consciousness element. A smooth or rough objective surface of food is material quality, earth element, which comes under matter aggregate, tangible object base and tangible object element. Tasting of the food & drink's taste is mental reality, tongue-consciousness, which comes under consciousness aggregate, mind base and tongue-consciousness element. The taste itself is material quality, earth/water/fire elements, which comes under matter aggregate, taste object base and taste object element. To have good or bad memory of food eaten long ago, this is mental quality, mental factor of perception which comes under perception aggregate, cognizable base and cognizable element. The be happy or sad about eating food refers to mental reality that comes under mental formation aggregate, cognizable base and cognizable element With metta, Alex #100258 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, ruupakkhandha, Khandha Yamaka nilovg Dear Chew, thank you for your explanation. I have heard the expressions piyaruupa, saataruupa. Nina. Op 24-aug-2009, om 15:51 heeft chewsadhu het volgende geschreven: > In Khandha Yamaka, piyaruupa (lovable-ruupa/attractive-ruupa) > saataruupa (pleasant-ruupa), which are the 81 mundane consciousness > and its concomitants, are called ruupa; but piyaruupa and > saataruupa are not called ruupakkhandha (matter aggregate). #100259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] comprehension of Nutriment edible food nilovg Dear Alex, I am glad about your extra comments. Nina. Op 24-aug-2009, om 17:44 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > To have good or bad memory of food eaten long ago, this is mental > quality, mental factor of perception which comes under perception > aggregate, cognizable base and cognizable element. > > The be happy or sad about eating food refers to mental reality that > comes under mental formation aggregate, cognizable base and > cognizable element #100260 From: "szmicio" Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:13 pm Subject: Re: space, ruupakkhandha, Khandha Yamaka szmicio Dear Chew It's nice to hear again piyaruupa, sattaruupa. I know it from Vibhanga. piyaruupa i like lovely thing, sattaruupa - pleasant thing. > In Khandha Yamaka, piyaruupa (lovable-ruupa/attractive-ruupa) saataruupa (pleasant-ruupa), In Saccavibhanga, Buddha said: <> This same craving when arising where does it arise; when settling where does it settle? Whatever in the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; Herein when settling settles. In the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing? In the world eye is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world ear. In the world nose. In the world tonque. In the world body. In the world mind is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. <> In the world visible(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; Herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world audible(objects). In the world odorous(objects).In the world sapid(objects). In the world tangible(objects). In the world ideational(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. Best wishes Lukas #100261 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (3) sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, --- On Mon, 24/8/09, szmicio wrote: >I dont understand this unconditioned space element. how it's refering to akasa ruupa? Can you give me some short explanation? best wishes ... S: We are used to studying about the pariccheda akasa rupa which 'limits' or separates the kalapas (groups) of rupas. As one of the 28 rupas, this is what is generally referred to. However, we should appreciate that there is another manifestation, another kind of space - the space of the sky, the space in cavities, the space where there are not kalapas of rupas. If there were not this space, we could not stretch our arm out above or to the side of the computer desk, we could not hear, we could not smell, we could not swallow food. It's really a kind of common sense, I think. That's really about all we need to know. The first kind of space is conditioned by the kamma, citta, temperature or nutriment that the kalapa it delimits is conditioned by. It is said to arise and fall away with them. Clearly, in the second case, this cannot be said to be so. Once we start trying to pin-point or 'find' the conditioned and unconditioned space or trying to 'work-out' various scenarios of when and where open space is present or seems to disappear, we are likely to be lost in conceptual stories about it rather than understanding what appears, what is present at this moment. I find it helpful just to appreciate that 'out there in space' or in the gaps and cavities, there is not nothing and there are not the kalapas as there are in the objects around us. Hope this helps! Metta Sarah > Sujin: Do we have to think that space is conditioned or unconditioned, but it's there as space. ========== #100262 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 2, no 4. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, (Our internet service in Fiji has very intermittent - some days no internet at all, so will try to make the most of it today!) I'm enjoying the series - lots of good daily life examples like here! --- On Mon, 17/8/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >....We may be > about to speak > unpleasant words but paññå can realize the disadvantage > of akusala. > Then the cetasika that is abstention can stop angry words, > even if > one has opened one’s mouth already, Acharn said. When we > give in to > unpleasant speech and disagreeable behaviour we only think > of > ourselves, we are not considerate towards others. .... S: This is very true. .... > I said to Acharn that I complain to my husband when I am > tired or > hungry, when I do not like something, that I let myself go > more > easily when I am with him. Acharn answered: > > “We should develop wholesomeness. Nobody likes to hear > unpleasant > words. We can change our habits little by little. When > someone is > complaining he is thinking of himself first, whereas when > he thinks > of the other person’s feelings he forgets about > himself.” .... S: It's a good example. It's true that most of the day we just think of ourselves. We think we care so much about our family and close friends and we're all very interested in developing metta, but at moments of complaining, however mildly it might be, we forget about the others' feelings as she says, we forget all about metta and other kinds of kusala. We're just concerned about ourselves and not about the consternation or anxiety that others may experience on our behalf. As she says, slowly our habits can change. This of course is by conditions, especially the wise reflection and growth of understanding. On Saturday, Jon and I went for a day's kayaking with a small group down a river with lots of rapids up in the mountains here on the main island. It was beautiful, but the kayaking was pretty tough for me and Jon had quite a lot of discomfort in his back. Still, we both restrained from saying anything much about our difficulties - perhaps, in my case, because I'd just read your extract the day before and it gave me the helpful reminders about restraint of speech! I'm always impressed by how you manage to sit for hours on the floor in India, clearly in discomfort, but never seem to complain. .... > The monk leaves his home but what is the purpose of it if > he still > thinks of his family and friends. The purpose of becoming a > monk is > arahatship, the state of perfection. When someone wants to > become a > monk he should know whether his purpose is only to have > calm and to > be removed from a busy life. That is clinging. He should > know of > himself whether his kusala is strong enough to renounce the > homelife. > He should know his accumulated inclinations. .... S: Yes, I think that truly, very few really have the accumulations to renounce the homelife easily and naturally. Metta Sarah ======== #100263 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Contradicting Abhidhamma Again sarahprocter... Dear Rob K, #10027 Many thanks for kindly giving the quote from the commentary for further reflection. I don't believe this section is in the part of the commentary that Ven Soma translated. Perhaps one day we'll have access to the full translated commentary and tiika. I'd be glad to hear any of your further thoughts on it as well. --- On Sat, 15/8/09, rjkjp1 wrote: >"" right reflection is the conscious state that is associated with knowledge and which arises by way of perceiving, according to actuality, the nature, function, characteristic and so forth of the several skillful (or wholesome) states of mind and the like. Because it is correct reflection it is called right (or radical) reflection. >Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor: Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects. .... S: Yes, all is as expected, but "the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth)" is interesting. I remember hearing a recording on which S.Sujin mentioned this to you and you sounded very surprised. I think you said at the time that your home was messy and you hadn't considered this aspect or that cleanliness was a condition for satipatthana. Later, I discussed the point further with her, along with the 'eating congee' and other conditions which are sometimes given as 'sappaya'. Her response was, of course, about developing understanding of the present reality, of the seeing or visible object now. Of course, anything can be a condition, but if we start to think that by being tidy or clean, eating congee, having the right climate or going to the forest that it'll be a condition for satipatthana to arise, we go very wrong again. ... >Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma. .... S: Well we all ask for lots of explanations about knotty points here, for sure! ... >Purification of the basis is the cleaning of the personal basis: the body, and of the impersonal basis: clothes and dwelling place. The flame of a lamp is unclear when its wick, oil and container are dirty; the wick splutters, flickers; but the flame of a lamp that has a clean wick, oil and container is clear and the wick does not spit; it burns smoothly. So it is with knowledge. Knowing that arises out of the mind and mental qualities which are in dirty external and internal surroundings is apt to be impure, too, but the knowledge that arises under clean conditions is apt to be pure. In this way cleanliness leads to the growth of this enlightenment factor which comprises knowledge. ... S: I think there are many good reasons to encourage cleanliness, a big one being consideration for all around us. Like good health, it can be an important condition (in a conventional sense) for understanding to develop. However, I'm also thinking of the example K.Sujin gave us about the recluse who had previously been a dung-eater...... so we never know when there will be conditions for satipatthana to arise and develop. The important thing is always the undersanding of present realities. Understanding is "human's most precious treasure" as Ven Samahita recently quoted from SN 1 36. .... S: Thnks again, Rob, for adding this part of the commentary for us all to reflect on. Btw, do you know of a complete translation of the Sutta's commentary anywhere? Metta Sarah ====== #100264 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:54 pm Subject: Only an Image! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Representation, Image, or Manifestation, but not Substance! What one 'see' is only an 'Image', not a thing, not a 'substance out there', but a mental construction, an experience, an immaterial sensation, created by sense-organ, object and consciousness 'in here' in the mind and brain... Just like the image on the PC-screen is indeed electronically created and not 'really' in there: There is an image of an Apple on the screen, but naturally no real apple inside the PC… Likewise: There is an image of an Apple on the mental visual screen (occipital brain cortex), but from that image one cannot conclude, that a real apple exists outside, apart from or completely independent of the perceiving mind… !!! Like in the mirror, there is no 'Person' in there and like in the cinema, there is no 'Actors' on that screen; There is only 'Images' of persons and things. They appear as real, but are Not really Real... Image of what then, one may ask? We will never know as we only have the mental images and never the 'original ' object! Even to claim that this 'original' exists, is then merely metaphysical speculation based on a somewhat naive, simple-minded - if not even childish - materialist world view… The thing for 'itself' -das ding an sich- as Emanuel Kant called the assumed object undistorted by the process perception will by definition never be available to us... Seeing -Images- instead of -Realities- is halfway to seeing -Nothingness-… Seeing -Nothingness- is halfway to disabling the urge of -Craving-… Disabling -Craving- is halfway to te deathless dimension -Nibbana-! The Blessed Buddha once said: In the seen is merely the process of seeing and what is seen. In the heard is merely the process of hearing and what is heard. In the sensed is merely the process of sensing and what is sensed. In the thought is merely the process of thinking and what is thought of. So knowing, you will not be connected with that… So disconnected, you will not be absorbed in that... So neither 'with that' nor 'in that' you -are!- not -by that- sensation! When there is no -you- inferred or conjectured by that sensation, then -you- are neither -here-, -there-, -both-, -beyond- nor -in between-… Only this - is the End of Suffering!!! Source: Udana - Inspiration: I - 10 Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Only an Image! #100265 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM 40 kammatthana objects: How does one choose & develop them? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Alex), --- On Sun, 16/8/09, szmicio wrote: >>A: VsM contains a list and description of practices for 40 objects of meditation. > > Question 1: How does one choose apppropriate kammatthana? >L: Impossible. That's conditioned. For example the reflection on death maranasati, that was described in a detailed way can arise in daily life when you're going to shop or something else. Or when you read maranasati, there can be conditions for such kind of reflection , for arising of samvega or understanding. .... S: Good answer! I always appreciate reading your confidence in conditioned dhammas at this moment. We can give many conventional stories about what one should do or choose, but forget again and again about sankhara khandha and conditioned accumulations. Metta Sarah ========== #100266 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 2, no 3. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & Alex & all, Following on from Lukas's good reply - As Nina quoted in the above extract, #100038: --- On Sun, 16/8/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Acharn said: > > “One reads the teachings and considers them, and one > knows that this > conditions right understanding, but one should not expect > it to be > fully developed tonight or tomorrow. Is the development > of > understanding at this moment not enough? We should let go > of all > expectations.” ... S: If we do anything in order to have more understanding - whether it be reading the texts, going to the forest, keeping one's house clean, reflecting on space, trying to attain jhana - we forget about the understanding of this moment, about conditioned dhammas. ... > One may wonder which kinds of perfections in particular one > should > develop. Acharn said: “It seems that â€we’ can develop > them, but it > depends on conditions which type of kusala arises at a > particular > moment. When we learn about the ten perfections we are > encouraged to > develop all of them. When we realize that such or such > perfection is > deficient, right understanding can condition the > development of those > that are deficient.” ... S: Any kind of kusala is only developed through right understanding, not by 'we' trying to do anything, such as develop any wholesome states. Metta Sarah ========= #100267 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM 40 kammatthana objects: How does one choose & develop them? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & Alex, I thought these were helpful comments you both made as well - a great discussion between you guys! **** >A:.. For example the fact that I write this has a condition; that I know english. However me knowing English, doesn't 100% pre-determine the fact that I post my reply here. It is a necessary condition, but it is not sufficient and it doesn't by itself "force" me to reply. >L: But that kind of condition is not included in Patthana. That's concept. >A: One can study all the time and not develop vs one can study and then run off into the forest and "in no long time become one of the Arahants." >L: for sure. Studying and a strong effort is really the best way of life. But another ideas of Self that is "making" this or that, doesnt help at all. It can be a hindrance in development of sati. Even if you sit under a tree is there awarness? Even if you hear Dhamma and sit under a tree is there awarness? Even If you hear Dhamma going under the tree and "trying" with all your strenght is there awarness? >L:...But without this, when we start to think that "we" sit and "we" practice bacause "we will to do this" that's wrong. That is only the Dhamma that was heard and yoniso manasikara that conditioned this. **** S: I look forward to reading more. Metta Sarah ======= #100268 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: English translation of Complete Tipitaka sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Mon, 17/8/09, ptaus1 wrote: >I added the links there, as well as links to Abhidhamma Studies (by Nyanaponika Thera), and Dhammasangani and Vibhanga in English (1900's editions by Rhys Davids). ... S: Belatedly, many thanks for doing that. Very useful. I see you also put in the new links for the Metta site (which I'd not been able to find) and PTS. We've now deleted the old PTS one and also added the link to the Narada transl of AS too. Thanks again! Metta Sarah ======= #100269 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (4) sarahprocter... Dear Chew, Lukas, Ken O, Sukin, Nina, Jon & all, contd: ***** Sukin: I think Nina's point is that if it's not a concept, then we must be able to say exactly how it is conditioned. Sarah: No, because it's asabhava rupa. So asabhava dhammas don't appear because they don't have a characteristic that can be known. Kevin: Isn't it that it's called a rupa, but it doesn't really exist? Nina: It's not in the list of 28 rupas. Sarah: It's included in rupa, it exists. For example, if there wasn't the space rupa in the ear, you couldn't hear. If there wasn't the space rupa in the sky, aeroplanes couldn't fly through it. So it exists, the reality, but the characteristic doesn't appear because it's asabhava. But it is rupa. Nina: Excuse me, only the pariccheda rupa is in my 28 rupas.... Sujin: And why did he talk about the unconditioned akasa rupa too? Nina: It's not among the 28.... Sujin: Because you see, that when we talk about reality, we have to think whether it is or not. For example, space, is there no space or is there space? See? We have to be exact. When there is space, there is space. Space is not heard, space is not smell.... Nina: But which of the 28..... Sujin: It doesn't matter yet. But it is real. So when it's real, is it cconditioned, that one that is not hard at all? But, it's there, it's real. So it's a reality which is real but different from that which is in between the kalapas. That's all! .... Sukin: Maybe delimiting is not the only characteristic of space. Sujin: It's like space, but there is that which is conditioned, but the different one is not conditioned. But space is space! ***** Metta Sarah ======= #100270 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM 40 kammatthana objects: How does one choose & develop them? sarahprocter... Dear Ciaran & all, I'm impressed by your studies and reflections: --- On Tue, 18/8/09, kjerantalle wrote: >My understanding is that either mettaa, or its near enemy, raaga, or its far enemy, byaapaada, might be present on ANY occasion when a citta takes another being as its object, regardless of whether one is in company or in solitude. ... S: That's very good. Usually people wish to include themselves... ... >So in the case of mettaa, for example, one doesn't need to travel to Australia and meet Australians in order to develop the aspiration that Australians be well and happy. Rather, what is needed is what the Visuddhimagga calls manaapa-bhaava- dassana, the proper attention that attends to whatever is 'endearing' (i.e., whatever is kusala) in an Australian. Is this not so? .... S: I'm not sure that by "whatever is 'endearing'" refers to "whatever is kusala". Can you tell us more about the meaning of the Pali words you refer to? For example, when one walks down the street there can be friendliness, metta, to those one meets without the slightest idea about whether there is anything kusala arising in them. If we now generally have the aspiration that Australians be well and happy, I'm not sure there's much metta involved. It seems like more wishful thinking with attachment, but of course only pa~n~naa can know. Certainly, many opportunities for friends now that we write to without ever having had a 'direct' social encounter! Metta Sarah ====== #100271 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: necessery vs sufficient condition. study ->/= bhavana sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (Alex & all), You wrote more helpful comments here - that means, just as I see it:-)) ... From: szmicio >L: ..... Actually I very often find myself that the meditation subjects are working, but doest consider it like the meditation subject, but more like fleeting conditioned dhammas, and I am very grateful to Theras that they pointed out realities so accurate, that I can understand. The hearing Dhamma is a condition to right understanding. No "me" or "I" who understands or "done" something, but just Dhamma that was heard and conditioned right understanding. >According samma-samadhi it can be only now. When you sit and try to concentrate, it's not always natural and not "samma". It's more like trying to go to "another world". But of course when yout hear Dhamma, and sit and "meditate" that is possible to have samma-samadhi. But samma-samadhi can arise in daily life as well. If more natural it is, then samma-samadhi more "samma". With right understanding there is always samma-samadhi. >It is very tricky, because we like this subtle moments of concentration, but there have to be namaruupapariccheda ~nana, if not this is not right concentration. It's only our own dream world. >Be less formal Alex, it will help you. ... S: ....and a good conclusion too! Metta Sarah ====== #100272 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:54 am Subject: Re: space, ruupakkhandha, Khandha Yamaka gazita2002 hallo Lukas, I like yr posts as they are very pertinent to the present moment. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "szmicio" wrote: > > Dear Chew > It's nice to hear again piyaruupa, sattaruupa. I know it from Vibhanga. piyaruupa i like lovely thing, sattaruupa - pleasant thing. snip....... > > In the world visible(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; Herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world audible(objects). In the world odorous(objects).In the world sapid(objects). In the world tangible(objects). In the world ideational(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. > > Best wishes > Lukas > azita: was thinking about attachment this morning, in relation to a book I'm reading where very old cultures and traditions are being lost to the modern world, and was feeling sad due to the perceived loss of a particular culture. Then I remembered 'attachment' and realised that there was this big story happening and that attachment sure does lead to dukkha - well, in this particular case for me anyway. We are so taken with us and our ideas about - well, anything really. thanks for yr reminders. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #100273 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:56 am Subject: Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (4) chewsadhu Dear Sarah, Your discussion in Bangkok on Space is very interesting. I am trying to understand the unconditioned space element that described by you and A.Sujin. Thanks. > Sarah: It's included in rupa, it exists. For example, if there wasn't the space rupa in the ear, you couldn't hear. If there wasn't the space rupa in the sky, aeroplanes couldn't fly through it. So it exists, the reality, but the characteristic doesn't appear because it's asabhava. But it is rupa. > [some portions of this message have been removed]... > Sujin: Because you see, that when we talk about reality, we have to think whether it is or not. For example, space, is there no space or is there space? See? We have to be exact. When there is space, there is space. Space is not heard, space is not smell.... --- Ch: Yes, 'space is not heard', because 'space' is not sound. Sound is ultimate reality, it arises and ceases. 'Space is not smell', of course, Smell also is ultimate reality, it arises and ceases. --- > Sujin: It doesn't matter yet. But it is real. So when it's real, is it cconditioned, that one that is not hard at all? But, it's there, it's real. So it's a reality which is real but different from that which is in between the kalapas. That's all! --- Ch: Yes, 'Space' that mentioned by A.Sujin is real in the conventional sense. --- > Sujin: It's like space, but there is that which is conditioned, but the different one is not conditioned. But space is space! --- Ch: Sarah, how do you differentiate between the unconditioned space and the concept space? Can you please quote some examples or elaborate more on them? The unconditioned space, which is defined by you, as the ultimate reality, but without arising and ceasing. The concept space, which is understood by most, not ultimate reality, also without arising and ceasing, and it is unconditioned in the sense of it does not exist in the ultimate sense. Thank you. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100274 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: space, ruupakkhandha, Khandha Yamaka chewsadhu Dear Nina, I am sorry that this is all what I know about it. Thanks. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chew, > thank you for your explanation. I have heard the expressions > piyaruupa, saataruupa. > Nina. > Op 24-aug-2009, om 15:51 heeft chewsadhu het volgende geschreven: > > > In Khandha Yamaka, piyaruupa (lovable-ruupa/attractive-ruupa) > > saataruupa (pleasant-ruupa), which are the 81 mundane consciousness > > and its concomitants, are called ruupa; but piyaruupa and > > saataruupa are not called ruupakkhandha (matter aggregate). > #100275 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:11 am Subject: Re: space, ruupakkhandha, Khandha Yamaka chewsadhu Dear Lukas, I haven't read Vibhanga yet. Thanks and Sadhu for sharing the point in Saccavibhanga. It is very wonderful. --- L: > In Saccavibhanga, Buddha said: > > < > Ki~nca loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m? Cakkhu.m loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Sota.m loke…pe… ghaana.m loke… jivhaa loke… kaayo loke… mano loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati.>> > > > This same craving when arising where does it arise; when settling where does it settle? Whatever in the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; Herein when settling settles. > > In the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing? In the world eye is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world ear. In the world nose. In the world tonque. In the world body. In the world mind is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. > > > <> > > > In the world visible(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; Herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world audible(objects). In the world odorous(objects).In the world sapid(objects). In the world tangible(objects). In the world ideational(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. > --- Ch: Here, Saccavibhanga shows that piyaruupa & saataruupa are both ruupakkhandha and naamakkhandha. And they are conditioned dhamma, which arises and ceases. Is it correct? Thanks and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100276 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Element of space 2 of Y.Karunadasa sarahprocter... Dear Chew, (Nina & all), I'm glad that you sent the article in installments. There's a lot of good detail to consider. I can't take up all the points, but one thing I'm curious about is that (as I mentioned to Rob in Bkk), the conclusions seem different from those in his article on Time & Space which we've discussed before at length. The conclusion to his conclusion there, which I discussed before with Plamen was: "What all this amounts to is that in the ultimate sense (nippariyayena), the space-element (akasa-dhatu) is not different from space akasa). Both are conceptual constructs with no corresponding objective reality." http://www.orientalia.org/article594.html **** S: I'd be interested to hear your comments on that. Which was written later? --- On Tue, 18/8/09, Chew wrote: >[Element of space 2] > Of equal significance is the fact that both are referred to, not by the simple term, akasa, but by the compound, akasa-dhatu. This is only a part of the story. There is much evidence to show that the Theravadins too have recognized another kind of akasa. This they have never included in rupa; and except for one significant fad it corresponds to the asmskrta-akasa of the Vaibhasikas. .... S: I find this somewhat confusing. Both kinds of akasa are akasa dhatu and included in rupa. ... <...> >It will thus be seen that according to both schools, akasa dhatu means cavities, holes, apertures, interstices, etc. It could therefore be understood as bounded or delimited space. The Chinese rendering, k'ung, is said to mean "lack of rupa, or interstices between rupa," {Mc. Govern, op. cit. p.111} >The later works of the Theravada too, recognize this meaning when they refer to akasa-dhatu by the technical term pariccheda-rupa {See Vism. p.451}. Pariccheda signfies not only that which delimits (paricchindati) but also that which is delimited (paricchijjati) . The implication is that, since akasa-dhatu means cavities, interstices, etc., it sets limits to, and is itself limited by, the surrounding matter. ... S: If the meaning of 'pariccheda' is taken in this wider sense, not just to the delimiting of kalapas, and aakaasa is taken to mean (as the commentators have suggested): a + kas (to plough), i.e not ploughed, not scratched, hence 'akasa', this is how both manifestations may be included in "aakaasadhaatu pariccheda ruupa.m naa.ma", as referred to in the 28 rupas. Thanks again, Chew! Metta Sarah p.s I'd like a copy of the book, thanks! ======== #100277 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:21 am Subject: Re: space, ruupakkhandha, Khandha Yamaka chewsadhu Dear Azita Thanks and Sadhu for your reminders to me too. --- > We are so taken with us and our ideas about - well, anything really. > thanks for yr reminders. --- Ch: our ideas that we hold to, are called piyaruupa & saataruupa. The craving, which is ta.nha, holds on it as uppadanakkhandha. They arise and cease. Thanks and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100278 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam sarahprocter... Dear Scott, I always appreciate our discussions...for one thing, easy to agree like here: --- On Tue, 18/8/09, Scott wrote: >>Sarah:....At a moment of satipa.t.thaana, the place, the time, the object are all suitable, very sapaaya. There is only ever one moment, so 'suitable' can only ever refer to this in an ultimate sense. >Scott: You use the term sappaaya-sampaja~ n~naa - comprehension of what is suitable. Not only is what is fitting to one's self important, it is the sense that it this is an aspect of sati-sampaja~ n~na and a function of sati and pa~n~naa. The discrimination is made in the moment as well. So, what is fitting really is in relation to what are suitable conditions for developing right understanding - not for 'self' at all. We forget but sati remembers, right? ... Sarah: Right and right! ... >>Sarah: "I think that when we're living in the city, dreaming of jungle thickets as being 'the cause' of any bhaavanaa, it's a real hindrance to right practice. When we're in jungle thickets, dreaming of jungle thickets as being 'the cause', we're bound to be extremely disappointed, let down once again by expectations and perverted views." >Scott: I agree. Especially when one considers that these locations we think about - jungle thickets or cities - are only mindscapes really. They are constructions and conceptual. If one were to enter virtual reality, say by way of a very well-designed video game, and then forget that one's perceptions are controlled by the illusions of this very virtual reality, it would be similar to how we are most of the time. We actually believe in the reality of jungle thickets and cities and lose track of the moment, as you say. As Kh. Sujin has said, citta is dark. .... Sarah: Yes, very dark....and in dream-world most the time.... Metta Sarah ========= #100279 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Jewish Story Applicable to Dhamma Study Group ;-) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Your story was very funny - one kaveat: --- On Wed, 19/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: > “But we need to know what to do,” said the rabbi, “because our congregation members are fighting among each other.” “That,” said the oldest member of the congregation, “that is our tradition.” ... S: LOL, here on DSG, we don't fight, we have "friendly discussions":-)) Metta Sarah ====== #100280 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Element of space 2 of Y.Karunadasa chewsadhu Dear Sarah, I am sorry that I do not understand much on what Y.Karunadasa has writen in his book. I would like to send his book to you, you can read it on your own. Please email your mailing address to me. Thanks. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100281 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (4) sarahprocter... Dear Chew, --- On Tue, 25/8/09, chewsadhu wrote: >Your discussion in Bangkok on Space is very interesting. I am trying to understand the unconditioned space element that described by you and A.Sujin. Thanks. ... S: Thanks for your kind comments too and all your contributions here... ... >> Sujin: It doesn't matter yet. But it is real. So when it's real, is it cconditioned, that one that is not hard at all? But, it's there, it's real. So it's a reality which is real but different from that which is in between the kalapas. That's all! --- >Ch: Yes, 'Space' that mentioned by A.Sujin is real in the conventional sense. --- S: Hmmm....when she refers to 'real' as in the above, it's not "in the conventional sense", but in the ultimate sense. .... >> Sujin: It's like space, but there is that which is conditioned, but the different one is not conditioned. But space is space! --- >Ch: Sarah, how do you differentiate between the unconditioned space and the concept space? Can you please quote some examples or elaborate more on them? >The unconditioned space, which is defined by you, as the ultimate reality, but without arising and ceasing. ... S: Yes. For example, now we have all sorts of concepts about space, but still, there has to be the reality space inside cavities and outside in the 'open' space. I don't know what else to say. Like Sukin, it seems obvious to me that there is an open, wider space which doesn't exist in the solid desk or computer (that I know of). ... >The concept space, which is understood by most, not ultimate reality, also without arising and ceasing, and it is unconditioned in the sense of it does not exist in the ultimate sense. ... S: I think we have all kinds of concepts about space conventionally, as in 'going to space', looking for 'space', 'scientific ideas and so on. The ultimate reality can only be known by highly developed pa~n~naa. The first thing is to accept on a theoretical level that there is akasa dhatu and that it has different manifestations, but it's still the rupa, akasa dhatu. Is there any understanding or awareness of what appears now, such as the thinking, confusion, doubt, seeing, visible object? This is always what is important. Metta Sarah ========= #100282 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:34 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. sukinderpal Hi Ken, As you can see, my view has changed a bit since my last post to you. ---------------- > Sukin: Yes, and I like it very much too. However I've kept in mind to > distinguish between my own attitude towards the Teachings for which no doubt > "seeing every word the Buddha taught in terms of satipatthana" is a most > important reminder, and the particular audience of the Buddha who is > hearing him for the first time. > ----------------- Ken: > Were some of the Buddha's audiences more slow witted and less capable > of insight than we DSG'ers are? :-) Suk: I don't think so. But panna arises only when the conditions are right. Even now we can see that panna doesn't arise every time that we sit to read or listen to the Dhamma. No matter how great accumulations of panna in past lives, it would still require the right words at the right time for panna to arise, and the Buddha knew this, which is why he had to often wait for the proper time to teach. So it must be possible that someone approaches the Buddha who may have had much accumulated panna but then because of other conditions, not be ready to hear about conditioned realities. Of course, as I now believe, the Buddha would go on to teach him something anyway, but with the long term aim in mind and not insist on right understanding of nama and rupa there and then. Also take the example of Angulimala, he had such accumulations as to become an Arahat. The Buddha knew about him and would certainly not have wanted him to go on killing people, but it was only at the last moment that he could intervene and help in the best way possible. ============== Ken: > Also, I would like to know how dana sila and samatha can be taught > without satipatthana. I am not saying it is impossible, but I would have > thought a satipatthana-based introduction would have made teaching those > things much easier. Suk: But `satipatthana-based introduction' would be about satipatthana. And sure, kusala is developed best with Right Understanding, which is probably why the Perfections are called such. And once the seed of Right View has been planted, dana, sila and other kusala will develop more, gradually become more pure. But is this easier to teach….? ============== Ken: > Without satipatthana, people can't grasp that dhammas are real. > Therefore, they are likely to think that good and evil are ultimately > flexible and merely matters of opinion. I am fairly sure *all* of my > non-Buddhist friends see things that way. How can you teach people like > that? :-) Suk: I agree that without the Dhamma, encouragement for every form of kusala will invariably be taken for `self'. But I don't think that this necessarily mean that it all becomes arbitrary for everyone. Dana, sila and samatha are accompanied by sati, which I believe can't be wrong. Those who see the danger of sense contacts, this may not be with Right View of vipassana, for example that, what is seen is just visible object, a dhamma, or that lobha is nama, a conditioned reality. However, I don't think that one could say that their perception of lobha and its danger to that extent is wrong? ================ > S: > Sure the Buddha wouldn't enter into any debate about the value of > toothbrushes,and I'm sure none of his > disciples would be inclined to do so either, but this wouldn't change the fact > of clean teeth being important and that some of the monks needed to be > advised about it? And could not this be done with pure metta? > ----------------- Ken: > I can only repeat what we both agree on: whatever we are doing now > (whether it is sitting at the keyboard, or cleaning our teeth, or > hearing a discourse on teeth cleaning) we are to understand the way the > world truly is - now - according to the Dhamma. That won't interfere > with our ability to type or listen or clean our teeth. > > Let alone teeth cleaning, I am not convinced that *any* conventional > understanding of the Buddha's words is of importance. Conventional > understanding is pannatti. For satipatthana purposes pannatti has to be > seen as unimportant, doesn't it? Suk: For satipatthana purpose, yes. But why would you assume that the Buddha only had satipatthana to talk about to the monks? The use of tooth sticks and that ultimately there are only namas and rupas, can't both these be useful? Of course, it's likely that if some monk got his tooth infected not having paid attention to the advice on teeth cleaning, the Buddha would not mind it as long as his understanding about kamma and vipaka was firm. But would this then stop the Buddha from reminding him to clean his teeth properly in the future? =============== Ken: > That's the way I see Jataka tales, for example. Their conventional > reality, or unreality, is of no importance to me whatsoever. Suk: Jataka or our own life stories now, it's only nama and rupa which is real. There is no saying what kind of planets is formed, by heat and what kind of beings and behavior by kamma, citta, ahara and utu. My only problem with the Jatakas, is the fact of animals supposed to be with *single* rooted. This sometimes causes conflict in my mind when considering that there were animals which could receive moral instructions from the Bodhisatta. I'm sure that there must be some explanation just that I've not brought this up with anyone till now. :-/ Metta, Sukin #100283 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. sukinderpal Hi Chew and Sarah, > No matter how will be the result, I still would like to say thanks to you for explaining on this subject. S: And I thank you. Never before this have had I paid any real attention to the topic. ================ > Suk: One thing is for sure, its all imagination on my part, and it gets too philosophical especially when we are discussing something which is not the object of the present moment experience. > The earth, fire and wind elements are experienced through the body door, space isn't. The kalapas arise and fall away within the unconditioned space; this is how I picture it. From the fact that I can feel heat or wind while moving my hand in the air, I don't see why I need to come to the conclusion that there is no unconditioned space. In fact it seems to affirm more the point. Is there something wrong with my reasoning? Am I missing something? Please explain in a way that I might understand. > Ch: The kalapas arise and fall away. In between those kalapas, there are the pariccheda space-elements. These pariccheda space-elements are not unconditioned. They also arise and fall away. Can you agree with this point? S: Yes. =============== Chew: > Since you can feel heat, it shows that there are the exist of those kalapas. And the unconditioned space-element, which is mentioned by Sarah, has no arising-ceasing. Sarah also said "Where there is 'open space', asankhata akasa dhatu, there are no kalapas of rupas. It may be very large or very small. Outside the asankhata akasa dhatu, there are the kalapas." Do you also understand the unconditioned space element exactly as Sarah? S: I'm not sure how close my understanding is to Sarah's. I just discovered this Saturday that I hadn't given due consideration to the fact of pariccheda akasa rupas as having the function of `separating' or `not causing to join together' the different kalapas, such that I went on to picture wrongly, that there could be the asankhata akasa in between the pariccheda akasa as well. So I likely still have some wrong ideas regarding akasa. ================ Chew: > If that is so, you said you can feel heat, which mean, the kalapas are there. Since the kalapas are there, as what Sarah mentioned, unconditioned space element not there. Because she said whenever there are unconditioned space element, there are no kalapas of rupas. The conditioned dhamma and the unconditioned space element do not co-exist. S: I think that you misunderstand what Sarah is saying. The reference to `open space' using conventional examples is not saying that in a cave or even outer space, that such extended areas consisted only of the unconditioned space. It is just to give an idea about the manifestation of open space as against that which is conditioned by the kalapas and limited by them. It is saying that pariccheda akasa is between the kalapas and where there are *no* kalapas, there is this unconditioned space. In other words, while there must be kalapas in a cave or the ear, there is not only kalapas and the pariccheda akasa rupas conditioned by these, but also, and indeed occupying greater area, is the unconditioned akasa. ============= Chew: > This is the reason why you have to see why you need to come to the conclusion that there is no unconditioned space element, wherever you can feel the heat, etc. > > If you still want to affirm more on that point, which mean, what you have understood is conflicting. S: And according to the facts given by Sarah, this is exactly the reason why you should conclude that there exists the unconditioned space. :-) =============== > Suk: The point about the vacuum is that kalapas of rupa are affected by different conditions to arise and fall away in different locations. That gas can be taken out of a jar or that different gases can be mixed in that same jar, is I believe due to there being space unaffected by any matter, in the absence of which the kind of movement can't take place? > --- > Ch: Sukin, you believe due to there being space unaffected by any matter, in the absense of which the kind of movement can take place. Do you mean the unconditioned space element exist permanently? Is it a kind of view of permanent entity? S: There is always the danger of this isn't it? And I thank you for the reminder. Like I said, there seems to be no panna involved in my case. I don't know the ideal way to think about this particular matter. I do however take into consideration conventional behavior of objects moving around. Were there only pariccheda akasa whose one function is simply to separate kalapas, I find this not enough to explain such movements from one location to another of conventional objects. Also I see no reason to believe that the existence of kalapas is a cause for *all* space in the known universe. It doesn't make sense. ============== > Suk: In the example of the ear, it is not that there is space when empty and no space when filled with something, this would actually make the space *conditioned*. Rather it is exactly because there is this *unconditioned* space that movements of matter in and out of such cavities, is made possible. Indeed, the same principle applies to instances of solids being made to compress and expand, I would think. > And chemical reactions, this too seems to involve the unconditioned space playing a role. > --- > Ch: Sukin, Sarah said the space in the ear, etc, are unconditioned space element. It shows clearly that the unconditioned space element, that understood by Sarah, is pointing to the space in the ear, etc. When there is no more space in the ear, etc, how could you said there are still the exist of unconditioned space element? > > This is also where I want to say that the unconditioned space element that mentioned by you or Sarah does not exist.. S: I hope I have represented Sarah's position rightly and now you understand better what she is saying. ============== > Suk: The asankhata akasa dhatu wouldn't be inside or outside. The situation you describe is therefore impossible. That you fill up the cave with rocks and sand, is not affecting this kind of akasa dhatu. This akasa being both inside and outside of the cave that it is possible to then move rocks and place them in different locations. > --- > Ch: When Sarah mentioned the space in the ear, etc, as the exist of the unconditioned space element as the ultimate relity, do the space in the ear, etc is inside or outside? S: She was only pointing to the `manifestation' of unconditioned space by way of a conventional example. One could of course then go on to say that in between the rock and sand particles, there is in reality also this second manifestation of akasa, but then would still need to point to the `open space' in order to show the distinction between pariccheda akasa and asankhata akasa. But frankly, I'm not sure about this latter point, whether Sarah agrees with this. And maybe we need not try to determine exactly in examples such as these, since it is more important that the distinction is made between the two kinds of akasa. ============== > Suk: Again, I accept the possibility of being totally off target, and since I don't see any of the thinking as being with panna, at least the kind which would lead me to consider the present moment, we can drop this discussion if you want. However, since I think I have read you saying to the effect, one thing I'm curious and sincerely wish to know about, is how do you see the notion of unconditioned space? as being expression / encouraging of wrong view? Unless you have explained it in another post, in which case I'll read it in the course of the next few days. > --- > Ch: It is Sarah that mentioned the asankhata akasa dhatu. Why don't you ask Sarah personally on how does she see the notion of unconditioned space element. I have never accepted the exist of the unconditioned space element as the ultimate reality. S: You misunderstood my question. But never mind, since then I have learnt something, and also in the above, with the mention of possibly entertaining a "view of permanent entity" I think I now know what you had in mind at the time. Thanks again for your response. Metta, Sukin #100284 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Element of space 2 of Y.Karunadasa rjkjp1 dear Chew and sarah thanks for posting all this from karunadasa, I lost my copy when I moved to bangkok from Japan a few years ago. I love that book as he gives so many references to passages that are hard to find, even though I disagree with a few conclusions he makes. Also, as a scholar, he sometimes gives equal time to a few dubious mahayana ideas that conflict with the Theravada- although usually not siding with the mahayana- when the book would have had a more orthodox tone if he had only examined Theravada sources. Anyway at the very least it is a fine example of Sri lankan scholarship. Robert dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Chew, (Nina & all), > > I'm glad that you sent the article in installments. There's a lot of good detail to consider. I can't take up all the points, but one thing I'm curious about is that (as I mentioned to Rob in Bkk), the conclusions seem different from those in his article on Time & Space which we've discussed before at length. The conclusion to his conclusion there, which I discussed before with Plamen was: > > "What all this amounts to is that in the ultimate sense > (nippariyayena), the space-element (akasa-dhatu) is not different > from space akasa). Both are conceptual constructs with no > corresponding objective reality." > > http://www.orientalia.org/article594.html > **** > S: I'd be interested to hear your comments on that. Which was written later? > > --- On Tue, 18/8/09, Chew wrote: > > >[Element of space 2] > > > Of equal significance is the fact that both are referred to, not by the simple term, akasa, but by the compound, akasa-dhatu. > > This is only a part of the story. There is much evidence to show that the Theravadins too have recognized another kind of akasa. This they have never included in rupa; and except for one significant fad it corresponds to the asmskrta-akasa of the Vaibhasikas. > .... > S: I find this somewhat confusing. Both kinds of akasa are akasa dhatu and included in rupa. > ... > <...> > >It will thus be seen that according to both schools, akasa dhatu means cavities, holes, apertures, interstices, etc. It could therefore be understood as bounded or delimited space. The Chinese rendering, k'ung, is said to mean "lack of rupa, or interstices between rupa," {Mc. Govern, op. cit. p.111} > > >The later works of the Theravada too, recognize this meaning when they refer to akasa-dhatu by the technical term pariccheda-rupa {See Vism. p.451}. Pariccheda signfies not only that which delimits (paricchindati) but also that which is delimited (paricchijjati) . The implication is that, since akasa-dhatu means cavities, interstices, etc., it sets limits to, and is itself limited by, the surrounding matter. > ... > S: If the meaning of 'pariccheda' is taken in this wider sense, not just to the delimiting of kalapas, and aakaasa is taken to mean (as the commentators have suggested): a + kas (to plough), i.e not ploughed, not scratched, hence 'akasa', this is how both manifestations may be included in "aakaasadhaatu pariccheda ruupa.m naa.ma", as referred to in the 28 rupas. > > Thanks again, Chew! > > Metta > > Sarah > p.s I'd like a copy of the book, thanks! > ======== > #100285 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam sarahprocter... Hi Kens H, O, & all, --- On Wed, 19/8/09, kenhowardau wrote: >Did someone mention the present moment? :-) ... S: :-) ... >I think there are suttas in which the Buddha tells us to avoid bad company and to seek good company. And (as we know so well!) there are suttas in which he recommends jhana meditators to leave unsuitable places and seek suitable places. >However, there are also suttas that would seem to teach something different. For example, there is one about a monk who is attacked by robbers and subjected to the most horrible tortures imaginable. This sutta makes no mention of avoiding the present company and seeking other company. No mention of leaving the present place and going to another place! >So how do we reconcile the two types of sutta? With the Abhidhamma, of course! If (as we know) there are only the presently arisen namas and rupas then *all* of this talk about rejecting bad companions and places in preference for good can only be about one thing. It can only be about the nama, samma-vayama (right effort). .... S: Nicely reconciled indeed:-) ... >Some people may think I am taking things too far, but I think the torturing robbers sutta is very applicable to everyday life. Old age and sickness, for example, subject us to horrible tortures and rob of everything we hold dear. The solution is not to wish we were in another place at another time. The solution is right effort (as brought to us by right understanding) . ... S: As I was saying to Scott, easy to be chatting to you.... Anything can be a condition for samvega .... As I've hardly said anything, I'll tell you about a nice little incident that just happened as I took a tea-break outside the room. I was looking out to sea when a staff-member I don't know very well came over and gave me a little present she'd just bought at the "Hibiscus Festival', a local carnival. There was a little bag with a flower and book-mark inside. On the book-mark is written: "Guidance - The will of God will never lead you, where the grace of God cannot keep you." It has a picture of a leopard on it. I thought of you, because even though the words might be meaningless to us, I really appeciated her kind gesture. Indeed it is the kindness and friendliness of all the people here, especially the staff, that makes such a difference to our stay. When we arrived, at least 3 different staff members greeted me with a "Welcome Home!". Now, we're not going to be discussing satipatthana with them, but my question for you, Ken H is, wouldn't you always encourage children, anyone, to develop generosity and friendliness regardless? I have an idea that this topic (developing kusala that isn't satipatthana) is somehow at the root of one or two of your topics on dana that came up in KK and Bkk which we had difficulty following you on. ....and on the G word, we had another funny little incident when we were kayaking the other day. We had a lunch-break, sheltering from some light rain in a large open cave (lots of space, lol!). We were all hungry and just about to take a mouthful of our rolls when the guides asked if we hadn't forgotten something. None of us knew what it was. Slightly shocked they reminded us that we'd forgotten to say Grace. One of them then turned on Jon, the senior member, and asked him to say the Grace. Pause. Jon then gave a nice little appreciation of our good fortune without mentioning the G word. Another pause - this was obviously a rather unusual Grace. Then an 'Amen' from someone and we were allowed to eat:-). Actually, a nice idea to appreciate our good vipaka before greedily tucking in. A call from Jon to say he's on his way 'home', so time for our evening stroll.... Metta Sarah ======== #100286 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:19 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sukinderpal" wrote: > Suk: Jataka or our own life stories now, it's only nama and rupa which is real. There is no saying what kind of planets is formed, by heat and what kind of beings and behavior by kamma, citta, ahara and utu. My only problem with the Jatakas, is the fact of animals supposed to be with *single* rooted. This sometimes causes conflict in my mind when considering that there were animals which could receive moral instructions from the Bodhisatta. I'm sure that there must be some explanation just that I've not brought this up with anyone till now. :-/ > > Metta, > > Sukin Dear Sukin Animals can still have moment of kusala, no problem with this that I see? They can't attain jhana or nibban however. robert > #100287 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: piyaruupa. Khandha Yamaka nilovg Dear Chew and Lukas, Op 25-aug-2009, om 5:11 heeft chewsadhu het volgende geschreven: > Ch: Here, Saccavibhanga shows that piyaruupa & saataruupa are both > ruupakkhandha and naamakkhandha. And they are conditioned dhamma, > which arises and ceases. Is it correct? ------ N: Just this morning I looked up the Vibhanga text. I understand from it that anything can be object of clinging, any naama and ruupa, except the lokuttara dhammas. In 'Guide through the Abhidhamma Pi.taka' piyaruupa and sataruupa are translated as pleasing and delightful nature or appearance. It is ruupa, but not ruupakkhandha. I understand this, because also naama is included here. There can be clinging to all objects, and this is the origin of dukkha, the second noble Truth. I looked up the Dispeller of Delusion, the co to the Vibhanga. p. 133: ("that which in the world is dear and agreeable"); that which in the world has a pleasant nature and a sweet nature.> This co then goes on explaining about the attachment to the eye etc. how they imagine it as delightful, "the eye as a jewelled window opened in the golden divine palace of the pure fivefold [colour-] sensitivity, the ear like a silver tube..." Chew, I am glad you started this thread, an opportunity to have more understanding of piyaruupa. The Vibangha goes on stating that eye-consciousness, eye-contact, feeling, sa~n~naa, volition, thinking of visible object, etc. are piyaruupa, saataruupa. Thus all this is included, except the lokuttara dhammas. As Azita reminded us: at this moment there is clinging to all these objects, we imagine them to be lovely. We like to be alive, and to see, hear, etc. All these texts are a reminder pertaining to our life now. **** Nina. #100288 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:23 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 3, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, We have learnt that nĺma is an element which experiences, that there is nobody who experiences. When the truth is actually experienced, there is no doubt about realities. There is right understanding, no darkness. However, the moments of insight knowledge pass away very quickly, they are like a flash. Just a flash is not enough, all daily realities have to be fully understood. After the moments of insight knowledge have fallen away, the world full of people appears again. One has to apply again and again the knowledge one has gained at the moments of insight knowledge; one should be aware of all realities which appear. This shows again that pańńĺ develops from one moment to the next moment. When we are not aware of ultimate realities, we live in the conventional world. When visible object appears we think immediately of "something" or "someone", we are thinking of concepts. Thinking of concepts conceals the characteristic of visible object. We usually think of people and things, but seeing sees only different colours. When we look at somebody it is exactly the same as looking at a painting, Acharn said. We had the following conversation with Acharn about realities: Alan: "When we see, we can think of many colours, like red, green or yellow. That is thinking. Visible object is not many colours, it is only one colour." Acharn: "What is the meaning of visible object?" Alan: "It is seen through the eyesense." Acharn: "Do we have to name it red, green or yellow? The reality which appears is not yet understood as a mere dhamma." Alan: "Even without thinking in words we have an idea of green or red, and that is not seeing." Acharn: "Not only one colour appears, there are conditions for different colours to appear. Nobody can change the conditions for each different colour. You cannot change the colour of Gabi's eyes. Colour is just a kind of rúpa which can be seen through the eyes. We do not have to name colour blue, black or green. It is the same in the case of sound, there are many different sounds. Nobody can change the conditions for each different sound. Sound is just a reality and it is not self who experiences it. There is nobody. If awareness does not arise it is always 'I' who hears." ******* Nina. #100289 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (32, 33) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 32: Walshe DN 33.1.11(32) 'Four yokes (yogaa): sensuality, becoming, [wrong] views, ignorance. (Cattaaro yogaa - kaamayogo, bhavayogo, di.t.thiyogo, avijjaayogo.) ------- The Co states that these yoke or tie us to the cycle. The subco: they tie kamma to vipaaka. It explains that they tie beings to dukkha, since they cause the going from one life to another. ---------- N: So long as one commits kamma there will be result of kamma. Birth is the result of kamma. -------------- sutta 33: Walshe: DN 33.1.11(33) 'Four "unyokings" (visa'myogaa): from sensuality, becoming, views, ignorance. (Cattaaro visa~n~nogaa - kaamayogavisa~n~nogo, bhavayogavisa~n~nogo, di.t.thiyogavisa~n~nogo, avijjaayogavisa~n~nogo.) ------- N: visa'myogaa is release from the yoke. The Co explains: There is release from the yoke of sensuality by the jhaana that has foulness, asubha, as subject. After someone has made this as a foundation and has attained the maggacitta of the anaagaami, there is release from the yoke of sensuality by the ending of it. At the moment of the magga-citta of the arahat there is release from the yoke of becoming. At the moment of the magga-citta of the sotaapanna there is release from the yoke of wrong view. At the moment of the magga-citta of the arahat there is release from the yoke of ignorance. ----------- The subco explains that the release from the yokes of sensuality and so on refers to the persons who have entered upon a Path. ------- N: We learn here that the release from the yokes is a gradual process. There is to be release from the yoke of wrong view before there can be release from sensuality, clinging to becoming and ignorance. Akusala cannot be eradicated when it is still considered as I or mine. We still cling to an idea of wanting to be a good person and we are disappointed in ourselves when we commit a fault. Then we do not understand that both kusala and akusala are only conditioned elements, anattaa. When wrong view has been eradicated, attachment to sense objects still arises, but it is seen as a conditioned nama, not belonging to a self. When pa~n~naa develops further it will lead to detachment from all naama and ruupa, and at the stage of enlightenment of the anaagaamii attachment to sense objects is eradicated. ---------- Pali Co: Visa.myojentiiti visa~n~nogaa. Tattha asubhajjhaana.m kaamayogavisa.myogo. Ta.m paadaka.m katvaa adhigato anaagaamimaggo ekanteneva kaamayogavisa~n~nogo naama. Arahattamaggo bhavayogavisa~n~nogo naama. Sotaapattimaggo di.t.thiyogavisa~n~nogo naama. Arahattamaggo avijjaayogavisa~n~nogo naama. ------- Nina. #100290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 2, no 4. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 25-aug-2009, om 0:25 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Still, we both restrained from saying anything much about our > difficulties - perhaps, in my case, because I'd just read your > extract the day before and it gave me the helpful reminders about > restraint of speech! I'm always impressed by how you manage to sit > for hours on the floor in India, clearly in discomfort, but never > seem to complain. ------ N: Kayaking is very heavy and difficult if one is not used to it. I liked to hear about your example of restraint of speech. Now I cannot manage anymore to sit for a long time on a floor. I will not even try. Nina. #100291 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM 40 kammatthana objects: How does one choose & develop them? nilovg Dear Lukas and Alex, Op 25-aug-2009, om 1:08 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: Sarah quotes: > Lukas: Even if you sit under a tree is there awarness? Even if you > hear Dhamma and sit under a tree is there awarness? Even If you > hear Dhamma going under the tree and "trying" with all your > strenght is there awarness? > > >L:...But without this, when we start to think that "we" sit and > "we" practice because "we will to do this" that's wrong. That is > only the Dhamma that was heard and yoniso manasikara that > conditioned this. ------ N: I feel that this is a reminder that is good for all of us, no matter we are interested to develop jhaana or not. How often do we think: we develop, we study the dhamma? Actually, very often. Nina. #100292 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Jewish Story Applicable to Dhamma Study Group ;-) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/24/2009 11:39:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, Your story was very funny - one kaveat: --- On Wed, 19/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: > “But we need to know what to do,” said the rabbi, “because our congregation members are fighting among each other.” “That,” said the oldest member of the congregation, “that is our tradition.” ... S: LOL, here on DSG, we don't fight, we have "friendly discussions":-)) ----------------------------------------------- Absolutely! Er, uh, yeah almost! ;-)) --------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah ============================= With metta, Howard P. S. I'll be around through Friday, but then Saturday through the following Saturday we're going with friends on a short cruise (on the Caribbean Princess) up the U. S. Eastern seaboard and above, to spots in New England & Canada: Newport, Rhode Island, Bar Harbor, Maine, St. Johns, New Brunswick (Canada), and Halifax, Nova Scotia. I doubt that I'll be engaging in any internet activity. #100293 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Element of space 2 of Y.Karunadasa chewsadhu Dear Robert, Do you also want a copy of this book? I can send one to you, if you want to. Just email me your mailing address. Thanks. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > dear Chew and sarah > thanks for posting all this from karunadasa, I lost my copy when I moved to bangkok from Japan a few years ago. > #100294 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Jewish Story Applicable to Dhamma Study Group ;-) upasaka_howard Hi again, Sarah - I forgot to mention in the following a one-day stop in Boston, Massachusetts. (It slipped my mind, because we've been there several times before.) With metta, Howard P. S. I know: Who cares about our trip!! LOLOL! In a message dated 8/25/2009 8:02:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: I'll be around through Friday, but then Saturday through the following Saturday we're going with friends on a short cruise (on the Caribbean Princess) up the U. S. Eastern seaboard and above, to spots in New England & Canada: Newport, Rhode Island, Bar Harbor, Maine, St. Johns, New Brunswick (Canada), and Halifax, Nova Scotia. I doubt that I'll be engaging in any internet activity. #100295 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Jewish Story Applicable to Dhamma Study Group ;-) nilovg Hi Howard, have a good trip. No internet activities, but there is always an opportunity to learn more about anattaa, especially the anattaness of all the experiences through the six doors. So many things can happen on a trip, things unforeseen, things pleasant or unpleasant. But they are all conditioned, we cannot make them to be otherwise. There can be wise attention instead of unwise attention with lobha or dosa. Learning more the present moment is the most precious thing, but it can be very hard when the reality of the present moment is unwelcome. I hope you will experience many pleasant objects, with wise attention. Wow, this is quite a sermon, but it is also directed towards myself. My writing is conditioned by Lukas' many wise words, these inspire me so. Nina. Op 25-aug-2009, om 14:08 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > we're going with friends on a short cruise (on the > Caribbean > Princess) up the U. S. Eastern seaboard and above, to spots in New > England & > Canada #100296 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Jewish Story Applicable to Dhamma Study Group ;-) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/25/2009 10:42:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, have a good trip. No internet activities, but there is always an opportunity to learn more about anattaa, especially the anattaness of all the experiences through the six doors. So many things can happen on a trip, things unforeseen, things pleasant or unpleasant. But they are all conditioned, we cannot make them to be otherwise. There can be wise attention instead of unwise attention with lobha or dosa. Learning more the present moment is the most precious thing, but it can be very hard when the reality of the present moment is unwelcome. I hope you will experience many pleasant objects, with wise attention. Wow, this is quite a sermon, but it is also directed towards myself. ----------------------------------------- I appreciate your reply, Nina! All that you said is true with the mild disclaimer by me that how we react to events constitutes important conditions for what is to yet come, and while that is not making future events be as we want them to be, it is a contribution to that. There can, as you say, be wise attention, and I would add that this is especially so if we *keep that in mind*. What we keep in mind has its effect. (That is a fundamental virtue of studying the Dhamma.) As the Buddha taught in the Dhammapada: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, affection follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ----------------------------------------- My writing is conditioned by Lukas' many wise words, these inspire me so. -------------------------------------------- How good that is. :-) ------------------------------------------ Nina ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100297 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Jewish Story Applicable to Dhamma Study Group ;-) nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you for your kind reply. Let us know after your trip about the kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka you experienced, the seeing and hearing of the pleasant objects, or the cold experienced through the bodysense in Nova Scotia. Nina. Op 25-aug-2009, om 16:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > As the Buddha taught in the Dhammapada: > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind- > made are > they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows > one, even as > the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. #100298 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:38 pm Subject: piyaruupa, sataruupa. nilovg Dear Chew, I was reading to Lodewijk today from the satipa.t.thaanasutta, on the Application of Mindfulness on dhammas, see this from the point of view of the four truths. I came again across piyaruupa: < And what, monks, is the ariyan Truth concerning the coming to be of dukkha? Even this craving, potent for rebirth, that is accompanied by lust and self-indulgence, seeking satisfaction now here, now there, namely, the craving for the life of sense, the craving for becoming (renewed life), and the craving for not becoming (for no rebirth). Now this craving, monks, where does it arise, where does it have its dwelling? In those material things of this world which are dear to us, which are pleasant. There does craving arise, there does it dwell. What things in this world are dear, what things are pleasant? The eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind- these are the things in this world that are dear, that are pleasant. There does craving arise, there does it dwell. Visible object, sound, odour, flavour, tangible object and mind- object- these are the things in this world that are dear, that are pleasant. There does craving arise, there does it dwell. Seeing-consciousness, hearing-consciousness, smelling-consciousness, tasting-consciousness, body-consciousness and mind- consciousness- these are the things in this world that are dear, that are pleasant. There does craving arise, there does it dwell. Eye-contact, ear-contact, nose-contact, tongue-contact, body-contact and mind-contact- these are the things in this world that are dear, that are pleasant. There does craving arise, there does it dwell. Feeling originating from eye-contact, feeling originating from ear- contact, feeling originating from nose-contact, feeling originating from tongue-contact, feeling originating from body-contact, and feeling originating from mind-contact- these are the things in this world that are dear, that are pleasant. There does craving arise, there does it dwell. The remembrance of visible object, of sound, of odour, of flavour, of tangible object and of mental object- these are the things in this world that are dear, that are pleasant. There does craving arise, there does it dwell. The same is said about intention (cetanĺ) concerned with the objects experienced through the six doors, craving for them, thinking about them, deliberating about them. ***** Nina. #100299 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten or Eleven? sarahprocter... Dear Han, #100105 --- On Wed, 19/8/09, han tun wrote: >I cannot accept that aakaasa is an unconditioned dhamma, as the same status as Nibbaana. ... S: No question of being "the same status as Nibbaana"! ... ------------ -------- >You said: [In the end, the understanding is not in the book but in the development of insight.] >It may be true, but for "me", considering that I am on my own without any teacher, the understanding must start in the books, and the tapes of Burmese Sayadaws. The development of insight is still far away for me, definitely not in the few days left in this life. ... S: Just one moment at a time....at the end of this life, just more moments... still just one reality appearing at a time, whether this conventional life or the next.... Metta Sarah ======== #100300 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2.Tiika to Vis. XIV, 63. sarahprocter... Dear Chew (& Sukin) #100106 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Chew" wrote: >> S: Just to clarify a small point - 'open space' does not mean 'absence of ruupa' as we use it or the texts use it. 'Open space' refers to aakaasa ruupa. In the cavity of the ear, there is aakaasa ruupa. > ... > C: If that is so, 'open space' does not mean 'absence of rupa'. It refers to akasa rupa, which is also one of the ultimate realities. It has no arising-ceasing. And it has already occupied the 'cavity in the ear, open space, etc.' > > Then how could possible another physical phenomena appears or arises at that place? Since it has been occupied by the asankhata akasa dhatu, which has no arising-ceasing and appear permanently there. > > It seems like another view, rupakhadha is in a permanent entity. .... S: I think there are many seeming 'conundrums' in the Dhamma which are only truly solved through the development of pa~n~naa. I think this may be one of the questions to be put aside, though I appreciate your concern about it. Even 'open' space, I would not refer to as a 'permanent entity', even though the dhamma doesn't arise and fall away. I understand your logic about filling up the cave with sand (or it could be the nose cavity with cotton-wool), but I tend to think this logic does not apply. As K.Sujin said, the first step is to be able to accept that there is 'open' space, a reality. Metta Sarah p.s I'm glad to see you asking your good and challenging qus to Sukin! I've appreciated all his comments on the topic to date - I think we see the subject very much in the same way:-)) ========= #100301 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2.Tiika to Vis. XIV, 63. sarahprocter... Dear Chew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Chew" wrote: >> Ch: "gap in the skin, gap in the flesh, gap in the sinew, etc" These are the terms in conventional sense. > ---- >> N: Very helpful terms that bring us to reality, the reality of empty space. The examples are of cavities smaller and smaller, and then the tiniest you can imagine: space between kalapas. > --- > Ch: Sometimes it causes people to think that only the gap in the skin, etc, is called 'the reality of empty space'. In the ultimate sense, the skin, etc, are formed by countless of kalapa, and there are also countless of 'empty space' within it. ... S: I like the way you put your last comment. All very intricate... Metta Sarah ======== #100302 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten or Eleven? sarahprocter... Dear Scott & Han, --- On Wed, 19/8/09, Scott wrote: >Scott: I thought of this (which I like) when I read what you wrote above. It's about how Aananda was trying to get ready for his part in the rehearsing of the Dhamma for the first council (from The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning, the commentary to The Minor Readings): "...The bhikkhus told Aananda, 'Friend, the meeting is tomorrow, but you are still only an Initiate with [a task] still to be done. It is not well for you to go to the meeting thus. Be diligent.' Then the venerable Aananda [thought] 'The meeting is tomorrow. It is not seemly for me to go to the meeting as an Initiate'. He spent much of the night in contemplation of the body. When the night was near dawn, he came down from the walk and entered his dwelling, [thinking] 'I shall lie down'. He adverted to the body. {As he did so,] his two feet left the ground but his head had not yet reached the pillow. In that interval his cognizance was liberated from the taints through not clinging. ... Sarah: "...through not clinging." In other words through the detachment of right understanding of the realities presenting themselves. Is that how you understand it? The balancing of the faculties, rather than 'over-exerting' of viriya, samadhi or any other. Metta Sarah ======== #100303 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Element of space 3 of Y.Karunadasa sarahprocter... Dear Chew & all, --- On Wed, 19/8/09, Chew wrote: >[Element of space 3] >That the Theravadins do not admit the visibility of akasa-dhatu is shown not only by its inclusion in the dhammayatana but also by a Kathavatthu controversy. Some Buddhists argue that it is visible on the ground that one can see the interval between two trees or two posts, the space in a key-hole or in a window. The Theravada reply is that in the case of an interval between two trees, for instance, one sees with his eye only the colour of the two trees and that the interval as such is known only by the mind {See Kvu. pp.330-I and KvuA. p.93}. .... S: I think this is an important point and possibly one that relates to the questions about the filling up of caves and so on. We may think that we can see or measure open space, but this is just thinking about it. Only visible object is ever seen. Space can only be known through the mind-door, just like many other subtle rupas, such as masculinity or femininity. ... >The Vaibhasikas, as stated above, distinguish akasa-dhatu from akasa. The latter, like pratisankhya and apratisankhya- nirodha, is an asamskrta-dharma. As such, the samskrta-laksanas do not apply to it. It is omnipresent (sarvagata) and eternal (nitya). Its nature is non-obstruction (anavarana-svabhava ). That is to say, it does not obstruct (avrnoti) matter which freely exists therein; nor is it obstructed (avriyate) by matter, for it cannot be dislodged by the latter. However, it is not the mere absence of obstruction (anavaranabhavamatr a), but is something positively real {See AK. Ch. I, p.8; AKvy. I, p.15}. Thus what is called asamskrta-akasa may be understood as space, considered as absolutely real and as constituting a receptacle for the existence and movement of matter. .... S: Interesting! I'm not sure about the receptacle or the eternal parts. Metta Sarah ======= #100304 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Sukin & Ken H, I'm enjoying our three-way discussion. If others wish to join in, even better. --- On Wed, 19/8/09, Sukinder wrote: >Ken H: > For a long time I have been using the quote "the Buddha taught > satipatthana and every word of his teaching should be understood in > terms of satipatthana. ... ... >Sukin: Yes, and I like it very much too. However I've kept in mind to distinguish between my own attitude towards the Teachings for which no doubt "seeing every word the Buddha taught in terms of satipatthana" is a most important reminder, and the particular audience of the Buddha who is hearing him for the first time. This latter may be asking about and ready to hear dana, sila or samatha only. .... Sarah: I don't see any conflict between the two. After all, dana, sila, samatha and so on are conditioned dhammas to be understood in terms of satipatthana too. Anything and everything... .... >Take for example metta, it being a parami is definitely superior to its development as samatha / jhana and requires satipatthana. And this samatha / jhana development is a step ahead from simple encouragement to have metta in one's day to day interaction with other people. With regard to this last, you'll agree that it is indeed very good to encourage especially when faced with the possibility of otherwise having anger towards someone. ... Sarah: I'm not sure that Ken does agree with this (ignore if already clarified, Ken). I think Ken would say that as they are all only conditioned dhammas in an ultimate sense and whether it is jhana citta, ordinary metta or anger, it's still piling up the bricks of samsara, so in that sense it really doesn't matter. Again, let me know if this touches on the point you were getting at in KK, Ken. .... >So I do imagine the Buddha doing just this, namely, encouraging metta in someone who is having aversion. Do you not imagine the same, or it is that I'm being very superficial? ... Sarah: Again, I need to read Ken's reply... ... >Sukin: Another suggestion has been that the Buddha sometimes taught dana and > sila (without panna) as an interim measure - intending to tie them in > with panna later. I suppose I can accept that. But then, do we believe > in later? Isn't only the present arammana suitable for right > understanding? "Later" doesn't really figure in this teaching. .... Sarah: But a gradual instruction definitely does figure. Phil and Han often give examples of this. Anupubbasikkhaa and Anupubbakathaa as discussed before with one goal in mind... Metta Sarah ======= #100305 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (1) sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Wed, 19/8/09, szmicio wrote: >> Sarah: Like the space in the vacuum, or the cave or the sky is not a concept, it's a reality, it's akasa rupa. So there are two kinds.... > >L: But in this case it's only a concept. The sky is a concept as well as vacum space. They are not real. Of course there is akasa ruupa in there, but it can be known only by pa~n~na dhatu. It has nothing in common with ideas. .... S: Yes and No! We're using concepts, of course, but they're pointing to the reality of 'open' space, akasa rupa. 'Sky' is not real, but the akasa of the sky is real. As you say, it can only be known by panna, very different from the idea. ... >So the concept of space can be a condition to jhana? ... S: As I understand, the delimiting space concept can be a kasina as object of jhana, so a condition by way of object condition. The 'open' space, but not the kasina of 'limited' space can be an object of arupa jhana. Don't ask me how this is possible...! ... >We are making a lot of teories about space. We think it's the air outside and start to make another concepts, that space is like that and not like that. Without pa~n~na nothing can be known. ... S: Very true. So even whilst speculating and making theories, there can be understanding now of such thinking. Metta Sarah ========= #100306 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, These good comments just caught my eye. Thanks for sharing the discussion you had with her: --- On Wed, 19/8/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Acharn: “The right Path is not planning when and where > sati will > arise. We should not have any idea of 'I will develop > right > understanding'. There are conditions for its arising, and > this is not > because of anyone’s will. It can arise now when there are > sufficient > conditions for its arising. One can know for oneself > whether there > are sufficient conditions for the arising of awareness of > realities > at this moment.” <...> > Acharn: “If you don’t wish but you develop it, it is > more beneficial.” > > Nina: “But I cannot help wishing for it.” > > Acharn: “If you understand that wishing is of no use, > there is a > condition for awareness. You can find out this yourself. > When insight > knowledge arises it is not Nina who has attained it; there > is at that > very moment nobody. We usually think in conventional sense > that a > person knows or understands something. The Buddha taught > ultimate > realities, paramattha dhammas, so that one can understand > the meaning > of no being, no person, no self. It is citta which knows an > object, > not a person.” ... S: I think this is very important - the understanding that being a 'nobody' or dustrag (as we sometimes discuss) does not just refer to the relinquishment of conceit, but also to the understanding of dhammas as anatta. When we appreciate that there really is nobody, no Nina, no Sarah that develops understanding or attains this or that, it's an important concition for such wishing or thinking in terms of 'people with insight' not to arise. Just dhammas rolling on by conditions... Thanks again for sharing the series. Metta Sarah ======== #100307 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:32 pm Subject: What is Advantageous? bhikkhu.sama... Friends Which Mental States are Advantageous? Cut Short: Mental states not mixed with any diluted form of Hate are Advantageous! Mental states not mixed with any diluted form of Greed are Advantageous! Mental states not mixed with any diluted form of Ignorance are Advantageous! In Detail: At whatever moment any advantageous thinking pertaining to this sense sphere is accompanied by gladness and associated with knowledge, directed to any sense object, such as a visible form, a sound, a smell, a taste, a touch, or a mental object, then right at that time arises momentarily: Contact, feeling, perception, intention, idea, directed thought, sustained thinking, joy, happiness, one-pointedness of the mind, the ability of faith, energy, awareness, concentration, understanding, the ability of mind and gladness, the ability of vitality, right view, right motivation, right effort, right awareness, and right concentration! There arise the powers of conviction, enthusiasm, acute awareness, focused concentration, and understanding. There arise the powers of shame, of fear of consequences of wrong action! There arises non-greed, non-hatred, non-confusion, and non-possessiveness! There arises no ill will, but right view, shame and fear of wrongdoing! There is then bodily calmness and serene tranquillity of mind. Then emerges then mental and bodily readiness, facile mental and bodily adaptability, and rational rectitude of mind! There is then present: Awareness, clear comprehension, mental tranquillity, insight, energy, and non-distraction! These and whatever formless immaterial states these causally produce: These are the -Advantageous- mental states... Comments: Diluted forms of Greed are: Desire, lust, yearning, longing, craving, hoping and wanting... Diluted forms of Hate are: Anger, rage, irritation, resentment, opposition & stubbornness... Diluted forms of Ignorance are: Confusion, uncertainty, doubt, perplexity and hesitation... <...> Source: The Classification of States: The Dhammasangani. The 1st of the 7 Abhidhamma Books. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130622 http://www.amazon.com/dhammasangani-Enumeration-realities-Bibliotheca-Indo-B udhica/dp/8170306108/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8 &s=books&qid=1204111405&sr=8-1 Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri <...> #100308 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten or Eleven? sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- On Wed, 19/8/09, han tun wrote: >As I am not interested in the "results" none of these occur in my mind. I will do whatever is to be done to the best of my ability. The appropriate result will come in accordance with my efforts, with my kamma, and with my accumulations. I cannot know what that result will be, and I am not worried about something which I cannot know. ... S: This is a very commendable approach. Yes, worry about the unknown is useless, however natural it may be. May your continue to give us all wise reminders for many years! Metta Sarah ====== #100309 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2.Tiika to Vis. XIV, 63. sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, #100126 --- On Wed, 19/8/09, Scott wrote: >Scott: Sammohavinodanii: "267...Aakaasadhaat u ('space element') is the element of the untouched (asamphu.t.tha) ..." (p. 67). "398. The earth, fire, and air elements are tangible-data element only. The water element and the space element are the mental-data element only..." (p. 93). ... Sarah: I think it's worth remembering that apart from the seven rupas experienced through body-sense (those mentioned) and through eyes, ears, nose and taste, all the other rupas can only be experienced through the mind-door. Pls add any further reflections you may have, Scott. it's good to consider all these terms referring to aakaasadhaatu, such as 'untouched' (asamphu.t.tha), not 'ploughed' etc... Metta Sarah ======== #100310 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, Dhammasangani. sarahprocter... Dear Ciaran (& Howard), #100128 The following was very interesting and helpful. --- On Wed, 19/8/09, kjerantalle wrote: An alternative form of the phrase states that the space element is "not contacted by flesh or blood" and this one is to be found in the Suttas, notably in the definition of the space element in the Maharahulovada and Dhatuvibhanga Suttas. For some reason it has been omitted from both I.B. Horner's and Bhikkhu Bodhi's English translations, along with some other words. Here I give Bodhi's translation with the missing words inserted between asterisks: "What, bhikkhu, is the space element? The space element may be either internal or external. What is the internal space element? Whatever internally, belonging to oneself, is space, spatial, **vacant (agha), involved with vacancy (agha-gata), interstitial (vivara), involved with interstices (vivara-gata) , not touched by flesh or blood (asamphu.t.tha ma.msa-lohitehi) ,** and clung-to, that is, the holes of the ears, the nostrils, the door of the mouth, and that [aperture] whereby what is eaten, drunk, consumed, and tasted gets swallowed, and where it collects, and whereby it is excreted from below, or whatever else internally, belonging to oneself, is space, spatial, and clung-to: this is called the internal space element. Now both the internal space element and the external space element are simply space element. And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is with proper wisdom, one becomes disenchanted with the space element and makes the mind dispassionate towards the space element." (MN. iii. 241-2) >The omitted phrase is also found in the Vibhanga's definition of space (Book of Analysis, para. 177). ... S: It's strange that part was omitted, maybe in the Pali m/s they were using? I'm very impressed with your familiarity with the texts and the Pali, Ciaran! Do you have any further reflections yourself on Space? Metta Sarah ========= #100311 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM 40 kammatthana objects: How does one choose & develop them? sarahprocter... Dear Ciaran & all, #100129 --- On Wed, 19/8/09, kjerantalle wrote: >> N: I see your point. However, one may think of people one has met > before in one's life. The citta is already in the company of people. C:> Yes, I agree with this. But earlier, when you said: "How will one know the difference between metta and selfish affection unless one meets people in daily life?" I took you to be implying that it is necessary to go on continually meeting and interacting with others in order to know the difference between metta and its near and far enemies. It seems to me that through our past meetings with others, we already have quite enough people stored in our memories that we might know metta and its enemies even if we were to live all the remainder of our lives without ever meeting anybody at all. Just like the development of recollection of giving (caagaanussati- bhaavanaa) doesn't require the continual giving of gifts, but only the recollection of our past giving of gifts on one occasion or another. .... S: You make a good point, but I tend to think that the 'stores need replenishing' in order for the characteristics to be known and the reflections to really be pure. For example, in the case of giving, I tend to think that it is when giving that there can be awareness and understanding of the kusala dhammas and the very many akusala dhammas in between - the attachment, the expectation, the disappointment and so on. The tendency to give is accumulated at such times of giving. Whilst reflecting on the past giving, so often it's attachment to that idea of giving, though of course there can be pure moments of caagaanussati-bhaavanaa as you say. In the same way, with the development of metta, I believe that it usually develops when there is kindness, friendliness, metta to those we meet and the nature of metta is known, as distinct from its near enemy in particular. There can be metta without ever meeting anybody, as you suggest - especially if we're writing, helping or communicating in some way- but I think it is the arising of metta when 'in association' and the understanding of such metta, that leads to the bhaavanaa. This is rather confused-sounding - I'll be glad to read any further comments you make. ... > N: the lovableness in beings has to be seen. But one thinks of > beings, is in the company of beings in one's thoughts. C:> And so there is no need for one's body to be in the company of other beings? ... S: It's a mental state, so one doesn't need to be in the company, but without any association or contact in someway, I think there are fewer opportunities to show metta. If some little insects come into my room, there's immediately the opportunity to have metta or aversion for them. If I think of insects in general in a pleasant way, wishing they may all be well and safe, I doubt there is much if any real metta arising. I'll be glad to hear other comments. Metta Sarah ======== #100312 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, saataruupa. hantun1 Dear Chew, Lukas, Nina, Azita, I thank you all very much for writing this thread, In DN 22 Mahaasatipa.t.thaana sutta, the following ten groups are considered as piyaruupa and saataruupa. (1) [Cakkhu, Sota, Ghaana, Jivhaa, Kaaya, Mana] (2) [Ruupa, Saddaa, Gandhaa, Rasaa, Pho.t.thabbaa, Dhammaa] (3) [Cakkhu vi~n~naa.na, Sota vi~n~naa.na, Ghaana vi~n~naa.na, Jivhaa vi~n~naa.na, Kaaya vi~n~naa.na.m, Mano vi~n~naa.na] (4) [Cakkhu samphassa, Sota samphassa, Ghaana samphassa, Jivhaa samphassa, Kaaya samphassa, Mano samphassa] (5) [Cakkhusamphassajaa vedanaa, Sotasamphassajaa vedanaa, Ghaanasamphassajaa vedanaa, Jivhaasamphassajaa vedanaa, Kaayasamphassajaa vedanaa, Manosamphassajaa vedanaa] (6) [Ruupasa~n~naa, Saddasa~n~naa, Gandhasa~n~naa, Rasasa~n~naa, Pho.t.thabbasa~n~naa, Dhammasa~n~naa] (7) [Ruupasa~ncetanaa, Saddasa~ncetanaa, Gandhasa~ncetanaa, Rasasa~ncetanaa, Pho.t.thabbasa~ncetanaa, Dhammasa~ncetanaa] (8) [Ruupata.nhaa, Saddata.nhaa, Gandhata.nhaa, Rasata.nhaa, Pho.t.thabbata.nhaa, Dhammata.nhaa] (9) [Ruupavitakka, Saddavitakka, Gandhavitakka, Rasavitakka, Pho.t.thabbavitakka, Dhammavitakka] (10) [Ruupavicaara, Saddavicaara, Gandhavicaara, Rasavicaara, Pho.t.thabbavicaara, Dhammavicaara] ---------- Han: Now, I learn from you that piyaruupa and saataruupa are ruupas. I know you are right. You will not speak which is not true. But it is difficult for me to consider all these mentioned above as ruupas. It is difficult for me to consider Vi~n~naa.na, Phassa, Vedanaa, Sa~n~naa, Cetanaa, Ta.nhaa, Vittaka, Vicaara as ruupas. Can I say they are the aramma.na for piya and saata? Is aramma.na ruupa? I do not know. It is still puzzling for me. Respectfully, Han #100313 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:44 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Sukin, -------- S: > As you can see, my view has changed a bit since my last post to you. -------- I have read and reread your post to Sarah and I think I know what you mean about having changed your mind. But don't quiz me on the details. As you and Sarah have both said, it's hard enough understanding our own points of view, let alone each other's. :-) If I could just ascertain the official (dinosaur) DSG point of view I would happily toe the party line. But, as with that other point about "an act of dana" I'm just not seeing it. ------------------------- <. . .> S: > No matter how great accumulations of panna in past lives, it would still require the right words at the right time for panna to arise, and the Buddha knew this, which is why he had to often wait for the proper time to teach. ------------------------- OK, maybe it is true that the Buddha sometimes waited for a proper time. But, given that there is only the present moment, how are we to understand waiting? We are to understand it in terms of satipatthana, aren't we? ---------------- <. . .> S: > And sure, kusala is developed best with Right Understanding, which is probably why the Perfections are called such. And once the seed of Right View has been planted, dana, sila and other kusala will develop more, gradually become more pure. But is this easier to teach….? ------------------- Until now, I have been stubbornly insisting that it *would* be easier. But maybe I have been missing the point. I can see now that teaching dana sila and samatha without satipatthana wouldn't be so hard, provided that the *teacher* had right understanding of nama and rupa. (!) In my experience, teachers of right-and-wrong have always had wrong view. And so they have taught useless, misleading platitudes such as "We should hate the sin, not the sinner," or "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." As we know, those conventional teachings are actually counter productive - effectively praising hatred and fear. So I will reconsider. Provided the teacher had right understanding (of nama and rupa), then maybe he would find it easier to teach some people 'kusala from akusala' rather than 'nama from rupa.' (This is heavy going. Thanks for putting up with me.) :-) Ken H #100314 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten or Eleven? hantun1 Dear Sarah, > > Han: I will do whatever is to be done to the best of my ability. The appropriate result will come in accordance with my efforts, with my kamma, and with my accumulations. I cannot know what that result will be, and I am not worried about something which I cannot know. > Sarah: This is a very commendable approach. Yes, worry about the unknown is useless, however natural it may be. May you continue to give us all wise reminders for many years! ---------- Han: Thank you very much for wishing me to be around for many years. But the end may be approaching fast. I have weakness of the muscles of the whole body since beginning of last year. I get easily tired. Not the kind of tiredness and breathlessness that one would experience in heart dieases or lung diseases, but the weakness in the muscles. Up till last year, I had never experienced like this. When I walk, the leg muscles get tired. When I work with my hands, my arm muscles get tired. Even when I chew the food, my jaw muscles get tired. It may be due to 'metabolic fatigue' when the peripheral muscles become weak, because of the reduction in contractile force due to the direct or indirect effects of the reduction of substrates (such as glycogen and creatine phosphate); or accumulation of metabolites (such as chlorides, potassium, lactic acid) within the muscle fibers. Or, it may be just plain and simple case of ageing process. But I am not worried. It is more of a nuisance than worry or fear. With best wishes, Han p.s. I am writing all these, so that when you get old, and if you experience generalized muscle weakness, not to get worried! #100315 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your comments. I'll split the reply in two parts so it's not too long and on different topics. > S: And important to clearly appreciate the distinction between namas and rupas and that all feelings of any kind are namas. The only tangible objects experienced through the body-sense are hardness/softness, temperature and motion > .... > S: Some people experience what? What is taken for energy in the body, can only be tangible object and thinking about it. The feelings are all mental. > .... pt: I agree, and this then becomes the main issue of how to approach the discussion. I mean, when examined from vipassana angle, the "energy" is exactly as you say above - tangibles, feeling cetasika and thoughts, and that's it. But then there's nothing much left to discuss. I mean, it seems the only way to get deeper into this topic is to get more into the conventional terms and talk about different kinds of "winds" as Sariputta was quoted saying, but then of course we run the risk of going into ayurveda, medicine, etc, and I don't think these would be interesting to people here. Anyway, I'm not sure how to strike a proper balance between conventional and vipassana angles, so here's a sample question (please point out if there are aspects not appropriate for dsg discussion in the future): Conventional description: Whenever anger arises, in the next split second I notice motion/pressure arising in the stomach area, and then a split second after that, there's a sort of a knotting up in the stomach - muscles tensing up, and then a split second after that bodily gesticulation and words might start happening. The same thing is noticeable with all kinds of aversion, though with anger and fear it is most obvious as they are the strongest. So my question would be how to classify this in abhidhamma terms: 1. The motion/pressure is the wind element experienced through body consciousness. But how is it produced? I assume it would be cittaja rupas, but I'm not sure which one of the 6 kinds mentioned by A.Sujin. It seems to happen every time anger arises, regardless of whether it is then followed by bodily expressions and gestures or not. Or perhaps this production of extra wind is already a bodily expression? 2. The knotting up in the stomach - muscle tension - that's earth element experienced through the body consciousness. But, the questions are the same as above - how is it produced, what kind of cittaja rupa it is (if it really is cittaja rupa at all) and does it count as bodily expression or not? 3. Why does it happen most strongly in the stomach area? Granted, when there's anger for example, the whole body might be shaking and winds are coursing all over the body, but still the strongest occurrence is in the stomach area. Would there be a name for this particular kind of a wind? Etc - I think questions from hereon lead even further into ayurveda and medicine, so I'll stop here. Best wishes pt #100316 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) ptaus1 Dear Sarah, part 2 > S: As we read about in the suttas, what we tend to dwell on, so we incline towards. In other words, if you dwell on the 'energy channels', for example, so it will seem that they appear all the time. What is samatha practice? It can only ever be the development of kusala calm. pt: Samatha seems a bit different to me so far, though maybe I'm misunderstanding your terminology (or simply engaging in wrong practice) - if we take "samatha meditation" in the strict sense of jhana development, and we take the case of someone who has not yet entered jhana, then what is actually getting developed (I'd say) is not calm, but understanding - basically, knowing the difference between what's kusala and what's akusala, while calm is a by-product of understanding (or rather a cetasika that accompanies a kusala citta). > S: At moments of dana, sila or bhavana, there is samatha. At moments of focussing on the meridiens, what kind of kusala is there? What is wholesome about the reflection? 'Something' goes wrong whenever akusala cittas arise. When akusala is taken for kusala and followed as being a kusala practice, this is most dangerous, I think. pt: I'm not sure what exactly you're asking here - I'll try to cover the possibilities that I see, depending on whether the concept of an "energy channel" is the selected object of samatha meditation or not: 1. if not, like in my case (so the meditation object is the concept of kasina, or breath, etc), then attention skipping from the selected object to a channel-concept would not necessarily be akusala just because the attention has skipped to a different object - in my understanding attention cannot be forced to stay on one object or the other because it is anatta. However, if in response to the skipping of attention to a channel-concept there arises aversion to this new object, or trying to hold onto it (greed), then that is akusala. If, however, there's understanding that attention has skipped, but understanding knows that the object now is a different concept (so no holding onto it or pushing away), then that's kusala (the attention then automatically returns to the original object, or skips again, with or without understanding, and so on). 2. if a channel-concept is the object of samatha meditation, then focusing on it becomes akusala if there's trying to force the attention to hold onto it (greed) or getting bored by it (aversion). Otherwise it will be kusala - because there's understanding present (it knows that there's no akusla at the moment and that what's focused on is a concept). In fact, the above applies to whatever object of meditation is selected. Hope this answers your questions. Best wishes pt #100317 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, saataruupa. nilovg Dear Han, Op 26-aug-2009, om 6:41 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Now, I learn from you that piyaruupa and saataruupa are ruupas. > I know you are right. You will not speak which is not true. > But it is difficult for me to consider all these mentioned above as > ruupas. > It is difficult for me to consider Vi~n~naa.na, Phassa, Vedanaa, > Sa~n~naa, Cetanaa, Ta.nhaa, Vittaka, Vicaara as ruupas. > > Can I say they are the aramma.na for piya and saata? > Is aramma.na ruupa? I do not know. > It is still puzzling for me. ------ N: No, they are all naama and ruupa that are the objects of clinging. As you say: aaramma.na for clinging. Not just ruupa. The expression piiyaruupa means of pleasing nature or appearance, as Ven. Nyanaloka translates. I used to think that it was ruupa, but now it is clear that it also includes nama. Nina. #100318 From: "szmicio" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:30 am Subject: Re: piyaruupa, saataruupa. - samudayasacca szmicio Dear friends, In Vibhanga, Saccavibhanga, Explanation according to discurses, The Blessed One continue: 2. The Truth of the cause (Samudayasacca.m) <<203. Tattha katama.m dukkhasamudaya.m ariyasacca.m? Yaaya.m ta.nhaa ponobhavikaa [ponobbhavikaa (syaa. ka.)] nandiraagasahagataa tatratatraabhinandinii, seyyathida.m kaamata.nhaa, bhavata.nhaa, vibhavata.nhaa.>> 203. Therein what is the Noble Truth of the cause of suffering? That craving, which is cause of becoming again, is accompanied by passionate lust, is strong passion for this and that. For example; craving for sense pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. <> This same craving when arising where does it arise; when settling where does it settle? Whatever in the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; Herein when settling settles. In the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing? In the world eye is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world ear. In the world nose. In the world tonque. In the world body. In the world mind is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. <> In the world visible(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; Herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world audible(objects). In the world odorous(objects).In the world sapid(objects). In the world tangible(objects). In the world ideational(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. <> In the world eye consciousness is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world ear consciousness. In the world nose consciousness. In the world tongue consciousness. In the world body consciousness. In the world mind consciousness is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; ----- To be continue. Best wishes Lukas #100319 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:48 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 3, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Nina: "We look at cars and houses all the time, it seems that we see them." Acharn: "It can be realized that visible object is different from the thought of a car." Nina: "Seeing sees details, but it does not know the meaning of them." Acharn: "It sees everything that is visible. When we are reading, we are thinking, but there is also the seeing of visible object." Nina: "If this would not appear through the eyes, we could not read." Acharn: "We will understand our task in life: the development of understanding of realities. Even when there is a little more understanding of realities it means that we are on the right way." Nina: "I was sleeping in a noisy room and I heard people walking by and talking. However, it helps to remember that hearing is only vipĺka, that it is impossible to control it." Acharn: "We can realize that it is only a moment that is conditioned. All dhammas in a day appear as just dhammas when there is awareness and right understanding." Acharn reminded me to develop understanding in any situation. In Istanbul I was worried that a show which had been planned would end very late. Acharn said that she would not worry once she happened to be there. She said: "I always follow the stream". I still remember what she said when I am at a party and I cannot leave when I want to. When we try to change events we are bound to have aversion and we have no patience. When we "follow the stream" we can understand that all events are only conditioned dhammas. We read in the "Dhammapada", verse 315: "Even as a frontier city is well guarded both within and wihout, Evenso one should guard oneself; let not a moment slip. For they who let the moments slip, mourn, delivered over to Hell." When we do not act, speak or think with kusala cittas, there are akusala cittas and we let the moments of our life slip. We should "guard ourselves", but without any idea of "self". There are opportunities for the development of right understanding in any situation and this conditions more patience. Our journey with Dhamma was most beneficial. ******* Nina. #100320 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten or Eleven? nilovg Dear Han, Op 26-aug-2009, om 7:39 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > p.s. I am writing all these, so that when you get old, and if you > experience generalized muscle weakness, not to get worried! ------ N: Thanks. For me the best remedy now is to keep moving every day, walking as much as I can. I notice the same as you but not to a heavy degree yet. What else can we do? But Han, mentally you are doing very well, helping us and reminding us by your posts. I am glad you write regularly. With appreciation, Nina. #100321 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, sataruupa. hantun1 Dear Nina (Chew, Lukas, Azita), Thank you very much for your clarification. ------------------- > > Han; Now, I learn from you that piyaruupa and saataruupa are ruupas. > Nina: No, they are all naama and ruupa that are the objects of clinging. > > Can I say they are the aramma.na for piya and saata? > Nina: As you say: aaramma.na for clinging. Not just ruupa. The expression piiyaruupa means of pleasing nature or appearance, as Ven. Nyanaloka translates. I used to think that it was ruupa, but now it is clear that it also includes nama. -------------------- Han: It is very clear now. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #100322 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten or Eleven? hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah), > Nina: Thanks. For me the best remedy now is to keep moving every day, walking as much as I can. I notice the same as you but not to a heavy degree yet. What else can we do? But Han, mentally you are doing very well, helping us and reminding us by your posts. I am glad you write regularly. With appreciation, Nina. ---------- Han: What else can we do? Walking is very good. Every morning, I am walking, although I cannot walk fast enough or far enough. Secondly, I checked my blood for CBC (complete blood count) on 10 August, and found that although the number of red blood cells was within normal range, the following items were below normal, which showed I have anemia. Hemoglobin (Hb) 11.1 g/dl (normal: 14.1-18.1) Hematocrit (HCT) 34.4 % (normal: 43.5-53.7) Mean Cell Volume 75.1 fL (normal: 80.0-95.0) Mean Cell Hemo 24.2 pg (normal: 27.0-32.0) Therefore, I am taking now Folic acid, Vit B12, and Iron. I will have to wait and see whether it will help me or not. Respectfully, Han p.s. I am a very bad patient. I had never checked my blood for CBC before. I thought I would never have anemia. What a fool I was! #100323 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:16 am Subject: Re: piyaruupa, saataruupa. chewsadhu Dear Han, It is only when in Khandha Yamaka, piyaruupa aand saataruupa are only referring to 81 mundane consciousness and their associated concomitants, but not ruupakkhandha. In Khandha Yamaka, 1) ruupa = piyaruupa + saataruupa + ruupakkhandha. 2) ruupakkhandha = 28 ruupa. 3) piyaruupa & saataruupa = 81 mundane consciousness and their associated concomitants. Other than Khandha Yamaka, piyaruupa & saataruupa = 81 mundane consciousness and their associated concomitants + ruupakkhandha. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100324 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: piyaruupa, saataruupa. hantun1 Dear Chew, >Chew: It is only when in Khandha Yamaka, piyaruupa aand saataruupa are only referring to 81 mundane consciousness and their associated concomitants, but not ruupakkhandha. In Khandha Yamaka, 1) ruupa = piyaruupa + saataruupa + ruupakkhandha. 2) ruupakkhandha = 28 ruupa. 3) piyaruupa & saataruupa = 81 mundane consciousness and their associated concomitants. Other than Khandha Yamaka, piyaruupa & saataruupa = 81 mundane consciousness and their associated concomitants + ruupakkhandha. -------------------- Han; Thank you very much, Chew. It is very clear now. Respectfully, Han p.s. I have never read Yamaka. I asked my grand-son to send me the book from Yangon. But it will be in Burmese language. #100325 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, saataruupa. chewsadhu Dear Han, Your listing is very interesting and helpful. Thanks. Not only the term 'ruupa' we have to consider. The terms 'cakkhu', 'sota', etc, we also need to consider. In Aayatana Yamaka (Verse 10), --- (Ka) cakkhu cakkhaayatananti? Dibbacakkhu pa~n~naacakkhu cakkhu, na cakkhaayatanam.. Cakkhaayatanam. cakkhu ceva cakkhaayatana~nca. (Kha) cakkhaayatanam. cakkhuuti? Aamantaa. (a) It is eye. Is it eye-base? Divine eye and wisdom eye are eye, but not eye-base. Eye-base is both eye and eye-base. (b) It is eye-base. Is it eye? Yes. --- (Ka) sotam. sotaayatananti? Dibbasotam. tan.haasotam. sotam., na sotaayatanam.. Sotaayatanam. sota~nceva sotaayatana~nca. (Kha) sotaayatanam. sotanti? Aamantaa. (a) It is ear. Is it ear-base? Divine ear and stream of craving are ear, but not ear-base. Ear-base is both ear and ear-base. (b) It is ear-base. Is it ear? Yes. --- May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100326 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, saataruupa. chewsadhu Dear Han, Lukas, Nina, Azita, Han: In DN 22 Mahaasatipa.t.thaana sutta, the following ten groups are considered as piyaruupa and saataruupa. (2) [Ruupa, Saddaa, Gandhaa, Rasaa, Pho.t.thabbaa, Dhammaa] (3) [Cakkhu vi~n~naa.na, Sota vi~n~naa.na, Ghaana vi~n~naa.na, Jivhaa vi~n~naa.na, Kaaya vi~n~naa.na.m, Mano vi~n~naa.na] [some texts have been removed] --- Ch: For Dhamma, Nibbaana must be excluded, and only the cetasika that associate with 81 mundane consciousness are to be included here. For Mano vi~n~naa.na, the lokuttara citta must be excluded. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100327 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ten or Eleven? scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and Han), "...The bhikkhus told Aananda, 'Friend, the meeting is tomorrow, but you are still only an Initiate with [a task] still to be done. It is not well for you to go to the meeting thus. Be diligent.' Then the venerable Aananda [thought] 'The meeting is tomorrow. It is not seemly for me to go to the meeting as an Initiate'. He spent much of the night in contemplation of the body. When the night was near dawn, he came down from the walk and entered his dwelling, [thinking] 'I shall lie down'. He adverted to the body. {As he did so,] his two feet left the ground but his head had not yet reached the pillow. In that interval his cognizance was liberated from the taints through not clinging..." Sarah: "'...through not clinging.' In other words through the detachment of right understanding of the realities presenting themselves. Is that how you understand it? The balancing of the faculties, rather than 'over-exerting' of viriya, samadhi or any other." Scott: I like the story. It's hard to imagine myself into the situation. I can think that Aananda seemed to be feeling some sort of pressure to perform, and seemed to be getting pressured by the Arahats. I don't know, though. They said, 'sve, aavuso aananda, sa"nghasannipaato, tva~nca sekho sakara.niiyo, tena te na yutta.m sannipaata.m gantu.m, appamatto hohii.' 'Appamaada' is 'thoughtfulness, carefulness, con- scientiousness, watchfulness, vigilance, earnestness, zeal...' Is it fair to imagine that Aananda was 'in contemplation of the body' ('kaayagataaya satiyaa') as an attempt to cause the arising of the Path - in response to the pressure? Was it his habit to spend his nights in contemplation of the body anyway? One can imagine him to have sort of 'stopped trying' and gone wearily off to bed, only to have the Path arise in that brief interval between all postures, having 'adverted' to 'the body' as object. Is it fair to suggest that Aananda tried to force the unforceable, fruitlessly exerting 'energy' and wanting to catch up with the other 499 Arahats ("No pressure, dude, just make sure you're enlightened before you come to recite the Dhamma in the morning. 'Night")? It became clear to him that 'his' energy was 'overexerted' and there was 'agitation' ('tena me citta.m uddhaccaaya sa.mvattati'). The Path arose only when conditions were suitable, and in the absence of agitation and trying. It was a natural arising, balanced because balance is the nature of such a moment of consciousness, in my opinion. The Paa.li is too complex for me, but here is the text of the commentary (maybe Nina is familiar with the text): Bhikkhuu aayasmanta.m aananda.m aaha.msu 'sve, aavuso aananda, sa"ghasannipaato, tva~nca sekho sakara.niiyo, tena te na yutta.m sannipaata.m gantu.m, appamatto hohii 'ti. Atha kho aayasmaa aanando 'sve sannipaato, na kho pana meta.m patiruupa.m, yvaahaáą sekho samaano sannipaata.m gaccheyya' nti bahudeva ratti.m kaayagataaya satiyaa viitinaametvaa rattiyaa paccuusasamaye ca"nkamaa orohitvaa vihaara.m pavisitvaa 'nipajjissaamii 'ti kaaya.m aavajjesi. Dve paadaa bhuumito muttaa, appatta~nca siisa.m bimbohana.m, etasmi.m antare anupaadaaya aasavehi citta.m vimucci. Aya~nhi aayasmaa ca"nkamena bahi viitinaametvaa visesa.m nibbattetu.m asakkonto cintesi 'nanu ma.m bhagavaa etadavoca - 'katapu~n~nosi tva,m, aananda, padhaanamanuyu~nja, khippa.m hohisi anaasavo 'ti (dii. ni. 2.207). Buddhaana~nca kathaadoso naama natthi, mama pana accaaraddha.m viiriya.m, tena me citta.m uddhaccaaya sa.mvattati, handaaha.m viiriyasamata.m yojemii 'ti ca"nkamaa orohitvaa paadadhovana.t.thaane .thatvaa paade dhovitvaa vihaara.m pavisitvaa ma~ncake nisiiditvaa 'thoka.m vissamissaamii 'ti kaaya.m ma~ncake upanaamesi. Dve paadaa bhuumito muttaa, siisa~nca bimbohanamasampatta.m, etasmi.m antare anupaadaaya aasavehi citta.m vimucci. Catuiriyaapathavirahita.m therassa arahattaáą. Tena 'imasmi.m saasane anisinno anipanno a.t.thito aca"nkamanto ko bhikkhu arahatta.m patto 'ti vutte 'aanandatthero 'ti vattu.m va.t.tati. Sincerely, Scott. #100328 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: piyaruupa, saataruupa. chewsadhu Dear Han, > p.s. I have never read Yamaka. I asked my grand-son to send me the book from Yangon. But it will be in Burmese language. I am very happy to hear that you are going to study Yamaka. Yamaka is also a very interesting subject. It is not as what others say a dry subject. There is a Yamaka commentary book, called Ayakauk. It is in Burmese language, no English translation yet. Please read together with it, you will enjoy the reading very much. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew p.s. All the books in Tipitaka are very interesting. None of them are dry. #100329 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, saataruupa. hantun1 Dear Chew, Ch: For Dhamma, Nibbaana must be excluded, and only the cetasika that associate with 81 mundane consciousness are to be included here. Han: In Abhidhamma.t.tha Sangaha, there are three dhamma objects. (1) Dhammaaramma.na (in Aaramma.na Sangaha) = 5 pasaada ruupas + 16 sukhuma ruupas + 89 cittas + 52 cetasikas + Nibbaana + pa~n~natta. (2) Dhammaayatana (in External aayatanas) = 52 cetasikas +16 sukhuma ruupas + Nibbaana. (3) Dhamma-dhaatu (in 18 dhaatus) = 52 cetasikas +16 sukhuma ruupas + Nibbaana (same as Dhammaayatana). I do not know which one of the above three is involved in 'Dhamma' of DN 22 Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Sutta. -------------------- Ch: For Mano vi~n~naa.na, the lokuttara citta must be excluded. Han: In chapter IV Vithi of Abhidhamma.t.tha Sangaha, there are 2 cittas each for cakkhu vi~n~naa.na, sota vi~n~naa.na, ghaana vi~n~naa.na, jivhaa vi~n~naa.na, kaaya vi~n~naa.na.m, and mano-vi~n~naa.na means 79 cittas. So, according to this book, lokuttara cittas are included in mano-vi~n~naa.na. Please correct me if I am quoting the wrong reference. Respectfully, Han #100330 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, saataruupa. hantun1 Dear Chew, Thank you very much for the additional information. I really appreciate it. Respectfully, Han --- On Wed, 8/26/09, chewsadhu wrote: From: chewsadhu Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, saataruupa. To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 5:35 PM Dear Han, Your listing is very interesting and helpful. Thanks. Not only the term 'ruupa' we have to consider. The terms 'cakkhu', 'sota', etc, we also need to consider. In Aayatana Yamaka (Verse 10), --- (Ka) cakkhu cakkhaayatananti? Dibbacakkhu pa~n~naacakkhu cakkhu, na cakkhaayatanam. . Cakkhaayatanam. cakkhu ceva cakkhaayatana~ nca. (Kha) cakkhaayatanam. cakkhuuti? Aamantaa. (a) It is eye. Is it eye-base? Divine eye and wisdom eye are eye, but not eye-base. Eye-base is both eye and eye-base. (b) It is eye-base. Is it eye? Yes. --- (Ka) sotam. sotaayatananti? Dibbasotam. tan.haasotam. sotam., na sotaayatanam. . Sotaayatanam. sota~nceva sotaayatana~ nca. (Kha) sotaayatanam. sotanti? Aamantaa. (a) It is ear. Is it ear-base? Divine ear and stream of craving are ear, but not ear-base. Ear-base is both ear and ear-base. (b) It is ear-base. Is it ear? Yes. --- May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100331 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: piyaruupa, saataruupa. hantun1 Dear Chew, I will also try to get Ayakauk. Thank you very much for the tip. Respectfully, Han --- On Wed, 8/26/09, chewsadhu wrote: From: chewsadhu Subject: [dsg] Re: piyaruupa, saataruupa. To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 7:34 PM Dear Han, > p.s. I have never read Yamaka. I asked my grand-son to send me the book from Yangon. But it will be in Burmese language. I am very happy to hear that you are going to study Yamaka. Yamaka is also a very interesting subject. It is not as what others say a dry subject. There is a Yamaka commentary book, called Ayakauk. It is in Burmese language, no English translation yet. Please read together with it, you will enjoy the reading very much. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew p.s. All the books in Tipitaka are very interesting. None of them are dry. #100332 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: piyaruupa, saataruupa. nilovg Dear Han and Chew, Op 26-aug-2009, om 14:50 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I will also try to get Ayakauk. ------- N: Wonderful, then you can help us. Yamaka is difficult to understand without a commentary. Nina. #100333 From: "chewsadhu" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, saataruupa. chewsadhu Dear Han, From your listing: (1) [Cakkhu, Sota, Ghaana, Jivhaa, Kaaya, Mana] (2) [Ruupa, Saddaa, Gandhaa, Rasaa, Pho.t.thabbaa, Dhammaa] (3) [Cakkhu vi~n~naa.na, Sota vi~n~naa.na, Ghaana vi~n~naa.na, Jivhaa vi~n~naa.na, Kaaya vi~n~naa.na.m, Mano vi~n~naa.na] They seems like the 18 Dhaatu. (3) Dhamma-dhaatu (in 18 dhaatus) = 52 cetasikas +16 sukhuma ruupas + Nibbaana (same as Dhammaayatana). I also do not know which one of the three that mentioned by you is involved in 'Dhamma' of DN 22 Mahaasatipa.t.thaana Sutta. But for sure... the lokuttara citta and their associated cetasika, and Nibbaana must not be included in the piyaruupa and saataruupa. Because they are not the object of clinging. Thanks and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew p.s. I am also waiting for you to obtain the Yamaka commentary book, so that I can get the points from that book through you. Joy arises in me, just by imagine of the time you share the Dhamma to me. Great. #100334 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, saataruupa. ashkenn2k Dear Chew thanks and these are clear. Its good that we could study the Yamaka, I find it very interesting. The commentary will help. Cheers Ken O ________________________________ From: chewsadhu To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2009 6:35:11 Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, saataruupa. Dear Han, Your listing is very interesting and helpful. Thanks. Not only the term 'ruupa' we have to consider. The terms 'cakkhu', 'sota', etc, we also need to consider. In Aayatana Yamaka (Verse 10), --- (Ka) cakkhu cakkhaayatananti? Dibbacakkhu pa~n~naacakkhu cakkhu, na cakkhaayatanam. . Cakkhaayatanam. cakkhu ceva cakkhaayatana~ nca. (Kha) cakkhaayatanam. cakkhuuti? Aamantaa. (a) It is eye. Is it eye-base? Divine eye and wisdom eye are eye, but not eye-base. Eye-base is both eye and eye-base. (b) It is eye-base. Is it eye? Yes. --- (Ka) sotam. sotaayatananti? Dibbasotam. tan.haasotam. sotam., na sotaayatanam. . Sotaayatanam. sota~nceva sotaayatana~ nca. (Kha) sotaayatanam. sotanti? Aamantaa. (a) It is ear. Is it ear-base? Divine ear and stream of craving are ear, but not ear-base. Ear-base is both ear and ear-base. (b) It is ear-base. Is it ear? Yes. --- May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #100335 From: Ken O Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, ruupakkhandha, Khandha Yamaka ashkenn2k Dear Lukas and Nina thanks for the piyaruupa and saataruupa, it confirms my suspicion as nama and rupa because rupa got no feelings. Even for the arisen of painful feelings in the body are due to the kamma vipaka cittas arisen with the rupas and not the rupa themselves. cheers Ken O ________________________________ From: szmicio To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 25 August 2009 2:13:42 Subject: [dsg] Re: space, ruupakkhandha, Khandha Yamaka Dear Chew It's nice to hear again piyaruupa, sattaruupa. I know it from Vibhanga. piyaruupa i like lovely thing, sattaruupa - pleasant thing. > In Khandha Yamaka, piyaruupa (lovable-ruupa/ attractive- ruupa) saataruupa (pleasant-ruupa) , In Saccavibhanga, Buddha said: <> This same craving when arising where does it arise; when settling where does it settle? Whatever in the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; Herein when settling settles. In the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing? In the world eye is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world ear. In the world nose. In the world tonque. In the world body. In the world mind is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. <> In the world visible(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; Herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world audible(objects) . In the world odorous(objects) .In the world sapid(objects) . In the world tangible(objects) . In the world ideational(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. Best wishes Lukas #100336 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussion in Bangkok on Space (5) sarahprocter... Dear Chew, Sukin, Nina & all, ***** Nina: I was thinking of the unconditioned space, akasa. I was worrying how can it be, because rupa must arise with the 8 inseperables, avinibhoga rupas. Sujin: First, should we think whether there is space, is it real? When we talk about space, is there any space or there is no space? We just talk about something which is not space. Nina: But how can it be directly experienced? Sujin: OK, just space, is there space, or is there no space at all? Nina: I can think of it. Sujin: You mean that there is no space? When it's real, it's real. Nina: Yes. Kevin: So it's rupa. Sujin: When it's not nama, it cannot experience anything. Kevin: So does it arise and fall? Sujin: It depends on whether we are talking about conditions for what arises. So we have to think, does space arise? It's real, but does it arise? If it does arise, it has to have the 4 primary rupas together. Nina: That's what I was thinking. Sujin: Without the pathavi, vayo, tejo, apo, there cannot be other rupa. So when we talk about space, we talk about (either) a reality which is unconditioned or the conditioned one when it's in between the kalapas, conditioned by kamma or citta or utu, because kamma does not produce just one kalapa - many kalapas. And how can there be many, not one? Because of spaces in between, so that is conditioned by kamma too. But when we talk about space, because there is space, can we say that there is no space? So it's real, but it's not that which we're talking about like rupas which are space in between kalapas. Like when I'm talking about pannatti, but pannatti is not real, it's the image or the sign of realities, but space, is it not real or is it? Kevin: It's real. Sujin: Yes. Sukin: So space is space, but it does not matter that there is conditioned and unconditioned space. Sujin: Yeh. Nina: But where in the teachings can I find it? Sujin: Atthasalini. ***** Metta Sarah ========= #100337 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Jewish Story Applicable to Dhamma Study Group ;-) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Tue, 25/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: LOL, here on DSG, we don't fight, we have "friendly discussions" :-)) ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- >Absolutely! Er, uh, yeah almost! ;-)) ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ S: :-)) (btw, that should have been a caveat with a 'c'). >P. S. I'll be around through Friday, but then Saturday through the following Saturday we're going with friends on a short cruise (on the Caribbean Princess) up the U. S. Eastern seaboard and above, to spots in New England & Canada: Newport, Rhode Island, Bar Harbor, Maine, St. Johns, New Brunswick (Canada), and Halifax, Nova Scotia. I doubt that I'll be engaging in any internet activity. ... S: Thx for letting us know - I'll put the dates in our google calendar! Sounds lovely and I hope you have a great trip and we'll look f/w to your report afterwards. Thx for the amendments too:-) We care, Howard!! Perhaps you'll have some discussions with your friends or others you meet which you can tell us about. Metta Sarah ======= #100338 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:10 pm Subject: A little reminder I've made for myself regarding 4 Elements truth_aerator Hello all interested, I've made a little cut out and reformatted the contemplation of elements based on suttas such as MN62, MN28, and other suttas, commentary additions and similar in style to some VsM contemplation of the 4 (6) elements. ============= Earth: Internal or external. Whatever internal, within oneself, is rough, smooth, heavy, light, hard, soft, solid, & sustained by craving: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internal is simply an Earth Element. Water Element: Internal or external. Whatever internal, belonging to oneself is cohesion, liquid, watery, flowing, sustained: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine, or whatever else internal is just a water element. Fire Element: Internal or external. Whatever internal, any temperature (hot or cold), digestion belonging to oneself, is fire, fiery & sustained: that by which [the body] is warmed, aged, & consumed with fever; and that by which what is eaten, drunk, chewed, & savored gets properly digested or whatever else is just a Fire element. Air Element: Whatever internal, belonging to oneself, is wind, wind pressure, windy, pushing & sustained: up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the stomach, winds in the intestines, winds that course through the body, in-&-out breathing, or whatever else internal is just an Air/ Wind element. Space Element: Just as when in dependence on timber, vines, grass, and clay, space is enclosed and is gathered under the term 'house,' in the same way, when space is enclosed in dependence on bones, tendons, flesh, & skin, it is gathered under the term, 'form'. Consciousness Element: Any mental phenomenon, eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness, mind consciousness, sensuality, Renunciation, Ill will, non ill will, harmfulness, harmlessness, ignorance, wisdom, beauty, cessation of perception & feeling. Pleasure, pain, joy, grief, equanimity, immaterial element, base of infinite space, base of infinite consciousness, base of nothingness, base of neither perception nor non perception. When people damage the Earth or throw what is clean or unclean on the earth - feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood, the earth is not pained, hurt, scared, horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it. When people boil the water or wash what is clean or unclean in water such as feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood; the water is not pained, hurt, angered, scared, horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it. The Earth does not know that "water is around, near, or in me causing me to be wet" and neither does the water know "Earth is around, under or near me" or "I am in the Earth". The Earth and water are insentient material elements and without cognition of any kind. When water is evaporated by fire, the water doesn't know "I am evaporated by heat" and the fire does not know that `I have boiled water'. When water extinguishes the fire the water doesn't know that `I have extinguished the fire" and the fire doesn't know that `I was extinguished by the water". Water and Fire are insentient material elements without cognition of any kind. When fire extinguishes or burns what is clean or unclean- feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood, fire is not pained, hurt, angered, scared, horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it. When wind blows what is clean or unclean; feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood; wind is not pained, hurt, angered, scared, horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it. When Fire was blown out by air the fire doesn't know "I was blown out and extinguished by wind" and neither does the wind know that "I blown out and extinguished the fire". The Fire and Air are insentient material elements that do not feel or cognize anything. Space is not pained, hurt, angered, scared, horrified, humiliated, or disgusted whenever anything happens in it. It doesn't know that "in me there are material elements". The space like the earth, water, fire and air is insentient elements devoid of cognition, feeling and mental states. The elements themselves are insentient and don't feel anything. When you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, water, fire, wind and space, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right wisdom, one becomes revulsed with the five elements and make the mind dispassionate toward the natural material elements which the body is made up of. "Now if other people insult, & harass one who has discerned this, he discerns that 'A painful feeling, born of ear-contact, has arisen within me. And that is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact.' And he sees that contact is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, consciousness is inconstant. His mind, with the element [earth, water, fire, air, space] property as its object/support, leaps up, grows confident, steadfast, & released. And if other people attack one in ways that are undesirable, displeasing, & disagreeable - through contact with fists, contact with stones, contact with sticks, or contact with knives - one discerns that 'This body made of 4 elements is of such a nature that contacts with fists come, contacts with stones come, contacts with sticks come, & contacts with knives come. Now the Blessed One has said, in his exhortation of the simile of the saw, "Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding." So my persistence will be aroused & untiring, my mindfulness established & unconfused, my body calm & unaroused, my mind centered & unified. And now let contact with fists come to this body, let contact with stones, with sticks, with knives come to this body, for this is how the Buddha's bidding is done.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.062.than.html ======== And whenever I read something that angers and saddens me on this or other board, I should remember the above... With metta, Alex #100339 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, Dhammasangani. sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Ciaran), --- On Wed, 19/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>C:(MN. iii. 241-2) >The omitted phrase is also found in the Vibhanga's definition of space (Book of Analysis, para. 177). ============ ========= ======== H:>Thank you for this sutta reference. :-) As I see it, in this statement the Buddha points to space using common, conventional terminology, and then as the Buddha always does, points out what is important about it, namely that "that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' " ... S: Yes, exactly....and so clearly the common, conventional terminology is pointing to realities, not concepts "that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' " Metta Sarah ======= #100340 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ten or Eleven? sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, (Han, Nina, Azita & all), I thought this was really interesting: --- On Thu, 20/8/09, szmicio wrote: >For me the best way of being ready for death, is not being ready for death at all. That is the best way. Now it looks like there is no fear, but fear can arise in each moment, we cannot control it, we really dont know when it suprise us. When it's present, then it's present. Can you control your fear? Dont be ready for death , let you to be suprise by life, by fear by everything. It's truly the best way of life. Dont try to "prove" something. We think a lot of "proving" our friends, we'are not affraid, we want to died with honours, without fears, we want to die in a particular way. But we can see that everything in life is out of control. If you learn this, then there will be no need to die in this or that way. You will be free. You will just die. .... S: Yes, better no expectations about the next moment at all. We never know what will arise at all. Just as we can't prepare for seeing or hearing to arise next, we can't prepare for a bhavanga or cuti citta either, let alone the javanas before death. Understanding this moment, the unexpectedness, the anattaness of the present dhamma is the best and only preparation. ... >That's how I remembered it. That was my first time I share Dhamma with my friends and they really enjoyed it. Only a few moments of sharing a Dhamma in life, the rest is just a dream. ... S: We never know when helpful seeds have been planted....just a few wise words can be very beneficial if the soil is fertile... Keep sharing with your friends, with all of us! Metta Sarah ======== #100341 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Element of space 5 of Y.Karunadasa sarahprocter... Dear Chew & all, >[Element of space 5] >This admission shows that the akasa at issue here is not the same as the akasa-dhatu of the Dhammasangani because the latter is sankhata. ... S: I believe the akasa-dhatu in the Dhs, especially as elaborated on in its commentary, the Atth., includes both the sankhata and the asankhata akasa, as I referred to in my article before. ... >One the other hand, it points to the close correspondence between the akasa of the Kathavatthu controversy and that of the Milindapanha. It may be recalled here that, according to the latter work, both Nibbana and akasa are not born of kamma or of causes or of season. This is another way of saying that both are not sankhata {Mil. pp.320-321}. For all sankhata-dhammas arise and exist because of causes. Since the akasa of the Kathavatthu and that of the Milindapanha are not sankhata, it is fairly certain that both works refer to the same kind of akasa. >There is, however, this significant problem to be considered: Although the Theravadin of the Kathavatthu controversy denies that akasa is sankhata, he does not admit that it is asankhata {See Kvu. pp. 328 ff}. Thus, in his view, it cannot be described either as sankhata or as asankhata. .... S: Ok, in the Kv, the Theravadin just says it's not sankhata. I thought that asankhata meant 'not sankhata'. .... >The commentator says that this is because akasa is a mere pannatti (pannattimattam) {KvuA. p.92}, i.e. a nominal dhamma. As far as the data are concerned this conclusion is certainly correct. For that which is neither sankhata nor asankhata should be a pannatti. There is, however, the following situation to be considered. The definition of akasa in the Milindapanha does not give any indication of its being recognized as a pannatti. On the other hand, as already stated, it bears a strong resemblance to the akasa of the Vaibhasikas, which is an asamskrta-dharma. It has also been noted that according to this work both Nibbana and akasa are not sankhata. Now, if akasa is not a pannatti and if it is not sankhata, it should be an asankhata-dhamma. But what is significant to note here is that, although the Milindapanha applies the term asankhata to Nibbana {Op. cit. p.70} it (carefully) avoids applying the same term to akasa. On this point, as we have seen, the Kathavatthu, is more positive, for it categorically says that akasa should not be described as asankhata (although of course it denies that it is sankhata). .... S: Interesting. .... >When the above situation is taken into consideration, it is difficult to follow the commentator. As we have already observed, it is of course true that his conclusion is supported by the data in the Kathavatthu. But there are some good reasons to believe that the problem at issue here is on quite a different level. As such the commentator' s conclusion does not seem to represent the actual situation that obtains in the Kathavatthu. .... S: This is a point I discussed with Nina in an earlier message. I think we have to understand the views being refuted which I referred to. .... >The Theravadins, it should be noted here, never object to Nibbana being qualified as asankhata. What is more, they seem to have deemed it improper to extend the term to something else even if it is not sankhata, lest this should give the impression that it is as exalted and as noble as Nibbana - the highest ideal of Buddhism. This seems to be the reason why the Milindapanha and the Kathavatthu, do not apply the term asankhata to akasa, although according to both it is not sankhata. In other words, akasa as conceived in these two works, is not a pannatti; it is a real dhamma which is not sankhata, but which is not designated as asankhata. .... S: I like this mini-conclusion very much. The open akasa is "not sankhata". I would therefore say it is 'asankhata', but as soon as we use this term, people suggest we're putting it on a par with nibbana and this leads to further confusion. So, I'm happy to just say it's "not sankhata" and let people draw their own conclusions! Thanks again for sharing. As I said, his conclusions here are completely different to those in his other article on the topic, it seems to me. Metta Sarah ====== #100342 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & all, --- On Thu, 20/8/09, Ken O wrote: >We have to look at the sutta in the whole context and the background of its intention. The sutta is about dependency. Monks need alms and layman does not need. .... S: What you say about monks and lay people is correct. However, I understand the sutta to be primarily about the development of sati-sampaja~n~naa. ... >Buddha wants the monk to have a suitable place to cultivate and know how to distinguish it or not why did Visud have to descirbe so many things in order to do meditation. It may as well keep it short. Certain matters are given by Buddha is of importance just like sila to certain context. Yes satipatthana is the foundation and gensis but there is always a purpose in some suttas to explain certain context for certain people >Right view must be know first before any development if not we will be going in the wrong direction. I saying mundane right view not to be confused with supramundane right view. ... S: You make some good points. Yes, "Right view must be know first before any development if not we will be going in the wrong direction." An example of "going in the wrong direction" would be looking for the ideal circumstances in order to develop sati sampaja~n~naa, in my view. In other words, when we forget about the reality to be known now and think about other circumstances, we go wrong. Yes, mundane right view is not supramundane right view. Without the development of mundane right view at this moment, there will never be supramundane right view. Metta Sarah ======== #100343 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: why Sujin recommends dry insight sarahprocter... Hi Jon, Rob K & all, This paragraph from Nina's current series (#100156) caught my eye - KS's comments as reported by Nina may be relevant to your discussion and the subject heading: >“When there are conditions for awareness, you can’t prevent it from arising”, was another remark made by Acharn. She said this in order to explain the nature of anattaa of sati. When the conditions are right it must arise and we do not have to do anything to cause its arising. Some people believe that they have to sit first and concentrate on breathing in order to be calm. One should have correct understanding of breath. Breath is ruupa produced by citta so long as we are alive. One should find out whether kusala citta or akusala citta arises while one is mindful of breath, otherwise there cannot be true calm which is freedom from akusala. When one tries to concentrate on breath and it appears on the nosetip or upperlip, one may be happy that one can notice it, but it may not be known when attachment, lobha, conditions breath. What then is the use of concentrating on it? One should find out whether or not one develops calm that is wholesome. The reality appearing at this moment has to be understood. Seeing, visible object, hearing, sound and all the other realities have to be understood as they are, as non-self.< Metta Sarah ======== #100344 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:40 pm Subject: Remastered! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Who can do it ? AUTO-TOOL: Urge, incite and teach yourself by yourself! Examine and evaluate yourself with yourself! Guard yourself, aware of yourself, in yourself! Friend :-) _/\_ and you will live in Happiness ... Dhammapada 379 MASTER! For self is the master of self. For self is the protector of self. For self is the saviour of self. Control therefore yourself by taming, like one, who have bought a new horse! Dhammapada 380 NIBBANA! Full of Joy, content and satisfied, the Noble friend with perfect confidence in the Teaching of the Buddha, will reach the place of Peace, the unconditional and unconditioned sameness of Happiness itself ... Dhammapada 381 Who can do it? You can do it! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Remastered! #100345 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Jewish Story Applicable to Dhamma Study Group ;-) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/26/2009 6:09:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- On Tue, 25/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: LOL, here on DSG, we don't fight, we have "friendly discussions" :-)) ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- >Absolutely! Er, uh, yeah almost! ;-)) ------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ S: :-)) (btw, that should have been a caveat with a 'c'). >P. S. I'll be around through Friday, but then Saturday through the following Saturday we're going with friends on a short cruise (on the Caribbean Princess) up the U. S. Eastern seaboard and above, to spots in New England & Canada: Newport, Rhode Island, Bar Harbor, Maine, St. Johns, New Brunswick (Canada), and Halifax, Nova Scotia. I doubt that I'll be engaging in any internet activity. ... S: Thx for letting us know - I'll put the dates in our google calendar! Sounds lovely and I hope you have a great trip and we'll look f/w to your report afterwards. -------------------------------------------------- I hope I have something to report. We're keeping our eye on soon-to-be-hurricane Danny that will be working its way up the coast - near Long Island just about when our cruise should begin! The projected path is slowly shifting towards the east - so, it may work out. (Sometimes inpermanence works in one's favor! ;-) -------------------------------------------------- Thx for the amendments too:-) We care, Howard!! ---------------------------------------- :-) Thanks, Sarah! -------------------------------------- Perhaps you'll have some discussions with your friends or others you meet which you can tell us about. ---------------------------------------- Perhaps. They're a bit more inclined to political discussion than towards discussing matters of philosophy and religion. Of course, ordinary day-to-day events often lead to deep discussion. And the fact that none of us is getting any younger alone leads to some deep matters. ---------------------------------------- Metta Sarah ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100346 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa, saataruupa. hantun1 Dear Chew (and Nina), Chew: From your listing: (1) [Cakkhu, Sota, Ghaana, Jivhaa, Kaaya, Mana] (2) [Ruupa, Saddaa, Gandhaa, Rasaa, Pho.t.thabbaa, Dhammaa] (3) [Cakkhu vi~n~naa.na, Sota vi~n~naa.na, Ghaana vi~n~naa.na, Jivhaa vi~n~naa.na, Kaaya vi~n~naa.na. m, Mano vi~n~naa.na] They seems like the 18 Dhaatu. Han: Yes, I also think they are 18 Dhaatu. ------------------------------ (3) Dhamma-dhaatu (in 18 dhaatus) = 52 cetasikas +16 sukhuma ruupas + Nibbaana (same as Dhammaayatana) . I also do not know which one of the three that mentioned by you is involved in 'Dhamma' of DN 22 Mahaasatipa. t.thaana Sutta. But for sure... the lokuttara citta and their associated cetasika, and Nibbaana must not be included in the piyaruupa and saataruupa. Because they are not the object of clinging. Han: You are right. The lokuttara citta and their associated cetasika, and Nibbaana must not be included in the piyaruupa and saataruupa. Thank you very much for your clarification. ------------------------------ Chew p.s. I am also waiting for you to obtain the Yamaka commentary book, so that I can get the points from that book through you. Joy arises in me, just by imagine of the time you share the Dhamma to me. Great. Han: I may not get the book at all. In Burma some books are out of print and not available. In the book shops where they have the Master copy, we will have to wait for them to make a photocopy. Then, I will have to wait for someone who will carry the book to Bangkok. It is not easy to send by post, and it might get lost. But if I get the book I will be very happy to share it with you and others. Respectfully, Han #100347 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:22 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. sukinderpal Hi Robert, ============ > > Suk: Jataka or our own life stories now, it's only nama and rupa which is real. There is no saying what kind of planets is formed, by heat and what kind of beings and behavior by kamma, citta, ahara and utu. My only problem with the Jatakas, is the fact of animals supposed to be with *single* rooted. This sometimes causes conflict in my mind when considering that there were animals which could receive moral instructions from the Bodhisatta. I'm sure that there must be some explanation just that I've not brought this up with anyone till now. :-/ > Dear Sukin > Animals can still have moment of kusala, no problem with this that I see? They can't attain jhana or nibban however. > Robert S: Sorry, that was supposed to be *no* root and not `single' root. I had accepted the possibility of kusala citta arising. But I thought that to be able to `receive moral instructions' required being born in a higher plane. But I guess being ahetuka is of no consequence in this regard. After all, as humans with two roots, one can still develop vipassana panna to a good degree, so why can't development of other levels of kusala happen for beings with no root… Metta, Sukin #100348 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sukinderpal Hi Sarah and Ken H, > I'm enjoying our three-way discussion. If others wish to join in, even better. Suk: I would like to hear others too. Just with you and Ken, I've come to see not only the limitations of the way I think about things, but also of the degree of confidence. The understanding is as you can see, wobbly, and even now I am somewhat unclear regarding where you both are coming from or where I stand. But then we are not trying to solve a mathematical problem, so no problem if things are not clear. I believe panna accumulates as sankhara and there will be many moments where the associated thoughts are still vague. ================= > >Ken H: > > For a long time I have been using the quote "the Buddha taught > > satipatthana and every word of his teaching should be understood in > > terms of satipatthana. ... > ... > >Sukin: Yes, and I like it very much too. However I've kept in mind to distinguish between my own attitude towards the Teachings for which no doubt "seeing every word the Buddha taught in terms of satipatthana" is a most important reminder, and the particular audience of the Buddha who is hearing him for the first time. This latter may be asking about and ready to hear dana, sila or samatha only. > .... > Sarah: I don't see any conflict between the two. After all, dana, sila, samatha and so on are conditioned dhammas to be understood in terms of satipatthana too. Anything and everything... Suk: I was thinking in terms of someone who saw the Buddha more or less, as one of many religious teachers, and who were not ready to hear about anatta but would have appreciated hearing about dana and sila. After reading your last post, I now think that the Buddha would end up teaching not what the listener wanted to hear, but with their accumulations and long term development in mind, aimed at finally coming to understand the 4NTs. And this is why I said that I now lean towards Ken's position more. ================ > >Take for example metta, it being a parami is definitely superior to its development as samatha / jhana and requires satipatthana. And this samatha / jhana development is a step ahead from simple encouragement to have metta in one's day to day interaction with other people. With regard to this last, you'll agree that it is indeed very good to encourage especially when faced with the possibility of otherwise having anger towards someone. > ... > Sarah: I'm not sure that Ken does agree with this (ignore if already clarified, Ken). I think Ken would say that as they are all only conditioned dhammas in an ultimate sense and whether it is jhana citta, ordinary metta or anger, it's still piling up the bricks of samsara, so in that sense it really doesn't matter. Again, let me know if this touches on the point you were getting at in KK, Ken. Suk: I agree with this. Previously, I pictured only two possibilities, one, the audience could understand satipatthana and so the Buddha would teach it to them and two, the audience could not understand satipatthana, and so the Buddha would teach other forms of kusala. Now with your help, I take into account the Buddha knowing the accumulations and his having the final goal in mind. Where Ken and I may not agree is that I believe that not in all cases was it expected of the audience an understanding about conditioned realities, whereas Ken seems to insist on this. But I won't be surprised if I'm still missing something. ;-) ================ > >So I do imagine the Buddha doing just this, namely, encouraging metta in someone who is having aversion. Do you not imagine the same, or it is that I'm being very superficial? > ... > Sarah: Again, I need to read Ken's reply... Suk: It appears superficial to me now. So I guess Ken would disagree and justifiably. ;-) ============== > >Sukin: Another suggestion has been that the Buddha sometimes taught dana and > > sila (without panna) as an interim measure - intending to tie them in > > with panna later. I suppose I can accept that. But then, do we believe > > in later? Isn't only the present arammana suitable for right > > understanding? "Later" doesn't really figure in this teaching. > .... > Sarah: But a gradual instruction definitely does figure. Phil and Han often give examples of this. Anupubbasikkhaa and Anupubbakathaa as discussed before with one goal in mind... Suk: The above was Ken speaking Sarah, not me. I don't remember anything about those discussions with Phil and Han. But I wonder, does the `gradual instruction' mean any particular order in terms of dana, sila, samatha, vipassana? Or was it that the Buddha knew exactly the right thing to say taking into account the listener's accumulations, such that his words acted as natural decisive support condition for kusala of different levels to arise? And this would at each instant be, as you say, with the `goal' in mind? I find it hard to accept that there is some particular order of teaching, but I'm sure that this is not what you are saying. Ken, what do you think about this? Metta, Sukin #100349 From: "sukinderpal" Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:25 am Subject: Re: always satipatthaana. sukinderpal Hi Ken, > S: > As you can see, my view has changed a bit since my last post to > you. > -------- Ken: > I have read and reread your post to Sarah and I think I know what you > mean about having changed your mind. But don't quiz me on the details. > As you and Sarah have both said, it's hard enough understanding our own > points of view, let alone each other's. :-) > > If I could just ascertain the official (dinosaur) DSG point of view I > would happily toe the party line. But, as with that other point about > "an act of dana" I'm just not seeing it. Suk: Just because I'm always arguing against modern interpretations this doesn't qualify me as one of the dinosaurs. ;-) In fact I place you alongside with those fine folks and look to learn from you all. My understanding about dana is as with everything else, vague. =========== > S: > No matter how great accumulations of panna in past lives, it > would still require the right words at the right time for panna to arise, and > the Buddha knew this, which is why he had to often wait for the proper > time to teach. > ------------------------- Ken: > OK, maybe it is true that the Buddha sometimes waited for a proper time. > But, given that there is only the present moment, how are we to > understand waiting? We are to understand it in terms of satipatthana, > aren't we? Suk: Actually it wouldn't be that the Buddha *waited* for a proper time. This is just an idea I superimpose onto the reality / situation. As you say, there is only the present moment. The difference is that the Buddha knowing the accumulations would have taught just what was right at the time. However this `right' didn't mean that citta rooted in panna arising immediately was expected, I would think…? ================== > <. . .> > S: > And sure, kusala is developed best with Right Understanding, which is > probably why the Perfections are called such. And once the seed of Right View > has been planted, dana, sila and other kusala will develop more, > gradually become more pure. But is this easier to teach….? > ------------------- Ken: > Until now, I have been stubbornly insisting that it *would* be easier. > But maybe I have been missing the point. I can see now that teaching > dana sila and samatha without satipatthana wouldn't be so hard, provided > that the *teacher* had right understanding of nama and rupa. (!) Suk: The teacher's role I believe is very important. You Ken, are uncompromising, and I believed that the Buddha was perfectly so. But he was also perfect in understanding and compassion, which is what would have made him say just the right thing. I would say now, that he taught dana, sila and samatha *with* satipatthana in mind, but not with the expectation that such understanding arise immediately. The paramis have to be developed, which I believe comes from accumulated kusala. So at any point in time, we can't know what is needed….? ============ Ken: > In my experience, teachers of right-and-wrong have always had wrong > view. And so they have taught useless, misleading platitudes such as "We > should hate the sin, not the sinner," or "We have nothing to fear but > fear itself." As we know, those conventional teachings are actually > counter productive - effectively praising hatred and fear. Suk: And those who do show rightly say the danger of tanha in relation to sense contacts, not knowing about conditioned realities, do nothing to lessen ignorance. These end up one way or the other encouraging `self view' and wrong ideas, including those that you express above. ============== Ken: > So I will reconsider. Provided the teacher had right understanding (of > nama and rupa), then maybe he would find it easier to teach some people > 'kusala from akusala' rather than 'nama from rupa.' Suk: Perhaps it is that instances of dana and metta for example, are accompanied by alobha, which is being nonattached to `self'. This may be related though indirectly, but in some way a precursor to the Right View which sees that there is in fact "no self" anywhere? ============= Ken: > (This is heavy going. Thanks for putting up with me.) :-) Suk: :-) I sometimes think that you would give up on me and ask to drop the discussion. Metta, Sukin #100350 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Hi Howard, #100167 --- On Thu, 20/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: Again, I don't think we need to be seeking awakening - just understanding of what is conditioned now. One moment at a time. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---- H:>> I consider that contrary to the Buddha's teachings. Gotama, himself, sought awakening, and he taught again and again the urgency for doing so. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- >S: Bhaddekeratta Sutta in MN, transl by Nanamoli/Bodhi: "Let not a person revive the past or on the future build his hopes; <...> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---- H:> I know that we are both correct. For one thing, what the Buddha taught depended on who was being taught, and when: What is useful for one (on one occasion) may be not useful for another (or for the same person on a different occasion). Moreover, practice for jhana and for awakening is not a matter of clinging to the past or imagining a particular future, but instead, as the foregoing states, to see each presently arisen state with a mind that is unshakeable and ardent. The Buddha again and again taught both the urgency of practice and, as a central aspect of that practice, the non-clinging to the past, to hopes for the future, to opinions, or to anything else. .... S: So far, so good:-)) ... >Dhamma practice is neither a matter of desire or belief, but of action. ... S: Would you describe right understanding, accompanied by the other path factors (excluding the 3 viratis of right speech, action and liveliood for now) as being "practice" and "action"? ... >I do think it important to point out, however, that initial motivation comes from desire. ... S: Let's assume we're both talking about tanha or lobha, attachment, here (and not wholesome chanda, for example). Yes, tanha is nearly always present in one guise or other. Didn't the Buddha say that it was the cause of Dukkha? Isn't it the mate that prevents us from attaining seclusion as Han always reminds us? From the Atthasalini on attachment: "Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso diigham addhaana.m sa.msara.m Itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaava.m sa.msaara.m naativattatii ti." "The man mated with craving wanders long Through life and death, nor does he get beyond His travels thus - reborn then otherwise." >The Buddha repeatedly taught in AN 4.159, for example, that "it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned." ... S: It is a condition, just like ignorance is, for eradication of defilements. This doesn't mean we actively pursue ignorance and craving. It means they must be clearly understood as the cause of all harm. ... >...But the motivation for such doing comes about through requisite desire. Consider the enormous desire for freedom from dukkha that Gotama himself exhibited. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - S: In the Bodhisatta's case, was this kusala or akusala chanda, kusala or akusala effort? I don't read this as being the same as the craving or desire which you refer to. Metta Sarah ====== #100351 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta according to VsM requires seclusion sarahprocter... Dear Alex (& Ciaran), You both make many good points in Ciaran's beautifully written #100169 and Alex's #100170. I'm not sure if Ciaran is reading/responding, so I'll reply to Alex's now: --- On Fri, 21/8/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Few things: It may be easier for a unconcentrated beginner to develop metta in seclusion because you aren't surrounded by angry people (such as a boss or coworker). ... S: Aren't these just the kinds of occasions that the Buddha encouraged us to develop metta? It's easy to be friendly and loving when everyone's being nice to us, but isn't the test, the challenge, when things are not as we'd like them? (I've had a good challenge in the last 24hrs - some drunks in the room above us making a lot of noise during the night, continuing on this morning and even vomitting over their balcony onto our terrace where I was sitting! We did put in a complaint! Well-tested metta or lack of it!) ... >Also because on a retreat you generally are not worried about lay life things that may be happening such as taxes, what to dress, working, etc etc. ... S: Yes, that's why the metta (or lack of it) is not tested. As we said, some people go on retreat and feel so kind and loving and the minute they come out and have to face the city crowds or co-workers, they start geting distressed. Sati and panna have to understand and become used to all kinds of dhammas in all kinds of situations. I remember when I stayed in a forest temple for many months, I don't recall ever saying a harsh word, for example. But such abstention was easy. Remember the story about the maid-servant Kali and her mistress. When she wasn't provoked sufficiently, she was such a kind mistress. ... >The Vissudhimagga IX, 1 does say: "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place. To start with, he should review the danger in hate and the advantage in patience." ==== >Note "sever the impediments" and "he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place". Impediments VsM III, 29 "[The Ten Impediments] Firstly it was said above, he should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have. [90] Now the 'ten impediments' are A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten" ========== S: I think Ken H gave a good answer. Are we talking about the person about to attain jhana or are talking about metta in daily life, such as now? ... >You may laugh at the instructions of VsM but for me it is not a laughing matter. ... S: No, it's not a laughing matter for me. It's also not a laughing matter if someone has the idea (illusion?) that by going on retreat they will understand and develop metta which doesn't arise or isn't known in daily life when they are amongst family, friends or colleagues. Metta Sarah ========= #100352 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Dear Ciaran, (Scott, Alex & all) #100182 This was also a great post you wrote and very helpful. Always a difficult topic, the Bhikkhuni Sutta: [See also in U.P. "Tanha-Good Desire?" --- On Fri, 21/8/09, kjerantalle wrote: >"He, on a later occasion, [through] having relied on craving, abandons craving." >The commentary explains that the craving rooted in the past round of sa.msaara is abandoned through relying on the presently arisen craving (for extinction of the aasavas). It then continues: aya.m pana paccuppannata. nhaa kusalaa akusalaati? akusalaa. sevitabbaa na sevitabbaati? sevitabbaa. pa.tisandhi. m aaka.d.dhati naaka.d.dhatiiti? naaka.d.dhati. etissaapi pana paccuppannaaya sevitabbata. nhaaya nikanti pajahitabbaayeva. Q. But is this presently arisen craving wholesome or unwholesome? A. It is unwholesome. Q. Must it be embraced or not embraced? A. It must be embraced. Q. Does it draw one towards rebirth-linking? A. It does not draw one. However, desire for the presently arisen craving-that- must-be-embraced must be abandoned. >This is then followed by an analogous treatment of maana. ... S: I understand it it the anagami that is being referred to - the craving and conceit to be known and as (natural-decisive) support for the final eradication of the aasavas. This is why they don't "draw one towards rebirth-linkiing" because of becoming an arahat. I'd be glad to hear any of your own further comments on this. Again, my appreciation for your beautifully and helpfully written comments. Metta Sarah ===== #100353 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation sarahprocter... Dear Scott, I thought all your comments on the Bhikkhuni Sutta were helpful too. #100183 --- On Fri, 21/8/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >In what sense is 'the presently arisen craving' 'relied' upon? Would it not be in the sense of serving as object of liberating wisdom? And, for that matter, could not any dhamma could serve as object in this regard? ... S: Yes. I think not just as object (which of course must be known), but also as nat.decisive support condition. ... >One need not assume, for example, that the sutta or its commentary mean to suggest that by literally craving abandonment someone can use this craving to finally achieve abandonment craving after working hard towards it. ... S: No, not at all. However, I think there can still be subtle (for an anagami, extremely subtle) cravings and conceits that can be an (indirect) condition for final enlightenment. Conditions are very complex. Pursuing craving now, to develop insight, would definitely not be the way... A very subtle point... I'm sure that by the time we're anagamis, it'll be clear:-)) Metta Sarah ====== #100354 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Sukin (Ken H & all), --- On Fri, 21/8/09, sukinderpal wrote: >Suk: In this post and as it often happens when discussing with Ken, I have the impression from time to time, that "I don't know what I'm talking about!" and that perhaps I'm even "contradicting myself". ;-) ... Sarah: I know exactly what you mean, I think he has that effect on us all:-)) (That's meant as a compliment, Ken!!) ... >When simply reading posts it's so easy to go away thinking that one knows exactly what is stated, but of course I never read with good attention. ... Sarah: I know you just mean this conventionally. Actually, whenever there is yoniso manasikara, there is 'good attention', even if all the words are forgotten. ... > Still when involved in discussion, because each person approaches the Dhamma from different angles, one sometimes also learns about the limitation of one's own approach, or better, the value of developing understanding of present moment realities. ... Sarah: Yes, agreed. ============ === >In other words, if the particular audience were not ready to hear about conditioned nature of realities or appreciate expressions regarding the elements and the Tilakhana using conventional examples, the Buddha would still not teach something which could equally well have been taught by any other teacher. He would still somehow skillfully state what is useful with the ultimate goal in mind. Is this what you are saying Sarah and you too Ken? ... Sarah: Sounds fine to me. ... >Thanks for your input Sarah, it was very helpful. If I still haven't got it right, at least I'm willing to question my own understanding. ;-) ... Sarah: Likewise! Metta Sarah ======== #100355 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. sarahprocter... Dear Sukin (& Chew & all), #100190 --- On Fri, 21/8/09, sukinderpal wrote: >Suk: The way I think about it, "unconditioned" as applied to Nibbana and space have some common feature, but of course these are totally different realities, so even this common feature must mainly point to the fact of them both being*not* conditioned, unlike other realities. I'm disinclined however, to also use `unconditioned' with regard to concepts. Concepts being non-existent, I do not consider them to be conditioned but neither does `unconditioned' feel right. What do you think? ... Sarah: Sounds fine. ... >Suk: I'm way behind in my reading and have read only the first of these installments, I think. But I don't understand why anyone would have a problem accepting the reality of the second manifestation of akasa. The Buddha actually pointing to the example of conventional space inside and outside as he did seems to be more about the unconditioned space than the conditioned one. If he wanted to show the miniscule one, a good example could have been say, picking up sand in his hands and showing how they were separated by space or something……. >In any case, I think one consequence of believing that the space we are able to `walk through' is the same as that which is conditioned by the kalapas, seem to be then saying that there is no definite rule as to the `apparent size' of space conditioned by each kalapa. And what about vacuum, how does one explain this. Maybe I'm just thinking wrongly and conventionally, but to me even in the case of the densest of conventional materials, there is the unconditioned space in between the conditioned one. And perhaps nobody is denying this, just that I'm missing the point……? Or should I just remember to know thinking as thinking. ;-) ... S: Again, all sounds fine until it comes to the last notes about "unconditioned space in between the conditioned one" etc. This may be what you clarify later. I've also seen your later comments and paraphrasing of mine and it all looked good to me!! Signing off for the weekend as I don't expect to have a connection again until Monday morning at the beach-spot I'm heading for. Metta Sarah ====== #100356 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:03 am Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 4. Conversations on Buddhism. Acharn Sujin explained about Buddhism to our guide in Turkey, Ms. Tuna, while we were having a tour on the Bosporus river. Acharn: We would like to have pleasant feeling all the time, but this is not possible. If we can understand the causes of our different feelings it will help us to have less unpleasant feeling. Life is so uncontrollable because each moment is conditioned. There are many kinds of conditions for our different experiences. We may think that it is just by chance that we are born in such and such country and that each of us has different experiences. In reality, there are conditions for each moment of our lives. We should learn to understand our lives, ourselves. We should learn to understand this moment. People have different thoughts, different feelings because of different conditions. We think that there is a self, that there is "I", but what we consider as "I" must be at this moment seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing tangible object or thinking. Seeing sees pleasant objects or unpleasant objects, but such experiences occur at different moments. Different experiences cannot occur all at the same time. In order to understand our life from moment to moment we do not have to think in terms of a particular religion. Realities such as seeing, hearing or feeling are true for everybody, no matter which language we use in order to name them. Don't we all have pleasant and unpleasant feelings? Can you control your feelings? Tuna: Well, I try to control my feelings. I am a Moslem, I believe in God. When I am in a very bad mood I pray to Him and then I feel better. Acharn: But you have not seen God. Tuna: I feel His presence. We believe that Mohammed is His prophet. Acharn: You have not seen Mohammed, but you know him by his teachings, don't you? Tuna: I pray to God. I read the texts of the Quran. When I want something very much and I pray, my wishes come true. Acharn: You don't have to do anything at all? Tuna: All of a sudden my wishes are fulfilled. ****** Nina. #100357 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A little reminder I've made for myself regarding 4 Elements nilovg Dear Alex, Op 27-aug-2009, om 0:10 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > And whenever I read something that angers and saddens me on this or > other board, I should remember the above... ----- N: Thank you. It is good for all of us. This is very well explained in the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint. Hearing only hears sound, no person who hears. Sound and hearing pass away immediately. But we think long stories about what we hear and make it very important. Also aversion arising after the hearing is only a conditioned element. It is not eradicated before attaining the state of the anaagaamii. We cannot expect not to have aversion. I discussed with Lodewijk the parts of the Body and how they can bring us back to reality. I asked him: what is synovial fluid, and he said, what comes out of your eyes. This morning I rubbed my eyes and thought of it, then noticed hardness. But it was more thinking then awareness. Also, I had attachment to this thinking: I am thinking of Dhamma, and was feeling pleased with myself. Before we realize it we are in the grip of lobha. Nina. #100358 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:21 am Subject: Re: piyaruupa, saataruupa. - samudayasacca szmicio Dear friends, The Blessed One continue: <> In the world eye contact is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world ear contact. In the world nose contact. In the world tongue contact. In the world body contact. In the world mind contact is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; <> In the world feeling born of eye contact is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world feeling born of ear contact. In the world feeling born of nose contact. In the world feeling born of tongue contact. In the world feeling born of body contact. In the world feeling born of mind contact is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; <> In the world perception of visible(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world perception of audible(objects). In the world perception of odorous(objects). In the world perception of sapid(objects). In the world perception of tangible(objects). In the world perception of ideatioanal(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; ------------- best wishes Lukas #100359 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:31 am Subject: Re: piyaruupa, saataruupa. - samudayasacca szmicio Dear friends, This is the second Noble Truth. The eye and visible objects.... and the feeling that arises on accout of them... The second Noble Truth is real. It can be experienced. In Adittapariyaya Sutta, Blessed One said: "Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning? "The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs. "The ear is burning, sounds are burning... "The nose is burning, odors are burning... "The tongue is burning, flavors are burning... "The body is burning, tangibles are burning... "The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with mind-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs. Best wishes Lukas > In Vibhanga, Saccavibhanga, Explanation according to discurses, The Blessed One continue: > > > 2. The Truth of the cause (Samudayasacca.m) > > <<203. Tattha katama.m dukkhasamudaya.m ariyasacca.m? Yaaya.m ta.nhaa ponobhavikaa [ponobbhavikaa (syaa. ka.)] nandiraagasahagataa tatratatraabhinandinii, seyyathida.m kaamata.nhaa, bhavata.nhaa, vibhavata.nhaa.>> > > > 203. Therein what is the Noble Truth of the cause of suffering? That craving, which is cause of becoming again, is accompanied by passionate lust, is strong passion for this and that. For example; craving for sense pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. > > > < > Ki~nca loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m? Cakkhu.m loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Sota.m loke pe ghaana.m loke jivhaa loke kaayo loke mano loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati.>> > > > This same craving when arising where does it arise; when settling where does it settle? Whatever in the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; Herein when settling settles. > > In the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing? In the world eye is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world ear. In the world nose. In the world tonque. In the world body. In the world mind is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. > > > <> > > > In the world visible(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; Herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world audible(objects). In the world odorous(objects).In the world sapid(objects). In the world tangible(objects). In the world ideational(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. > > > <> > > > In the world eye consciousness is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world ear consciousness. In the world nose consciousness. In the world tongue consciousness. In the world body consciousness. In the world mind consciousness is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; #100360 From: "szmicio" Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:45 am Subject: Fire Sermon and understanding this present moment szmicio Dear friends, It looks like we have to do some particular things in order to get understanding and become Arahat. But in reality the only thing to get understanding is just understand. No particular techniqe. There is this present moment. The world of eye, the world of visible object, the world of seeing, the world of eye contact... Just understand...and forget everything. We are still "saavaka", those who listen. We are not the doers, kaaraka, vedaka, we are saavaka, and our only way is to hear the Dhamma, we dont know what will be next. Understanding or not. We are just hearers. One account of hearing the Dhamma there can be understanding. 1000 Arahats was so beneficial to hear the Dhamma and become Arahats. --------------------- SN 35.28 PTS: S iv 19 CDB ii 1143 Adittapariyaya Sutta: The Fire Sermon translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu ---------------------- <> ----------------- best wishes Lukas #100361 From: han tun Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:54 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (46) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 5. Subtle Ruupas produced by Kamma ( continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ Seeing experiences only visible object, it does not know "This is a woman" or "This is a man". The citta which recognizes feminine or masculine features does so through the mind-door, but this recognizing is conditioned by seeing. When the commentary states that these characteristic features are known by visual cognition as well as by mind-cognition, it does not speak in detail about the different processes of cittas experiencing objects through the eye-door and through the mind-door. Generally, women like to emphasize their femininity in make up and clothes and also men like to emphasize their masculinity in their outward appearance and behaviour. One clings to one's feminine or masculine features, one's way of deportment. We should not forget that it is the femininity faculty or masculinity faculty, only a ruupa produced by kamma, which conditions our outward appearance or deportment to be specifically feminine or masculine. We take our sex for self, but it is only a conditioned element devoid of self. ------------------------------ Chapter 5. Subtle Ruupas produced by Kamma to be continued. with metta, Han #100362 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:19 pm Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (34-36) scottduncan2 Dear All, Continuing on from last: #100030 Fours (30-33) (cy: #100244, #100289) CSCD Cattaaro ganthaa â€" abhijjhaa kaayagantho, byaapaado kaayagantho, siilabbataparaamaaso kaayagantho, ida.msaccaabhiniveso kaayagantho. Walshe DN 33.1.11(34) 'Four ties (ganthaa): *1078 the "body-tie" *1079 (kaaya-gantha) of hankering (abhijjhaa), ill-will (vyaapaada), attachment to rite and ritual (siilabbata-paraamaasa), dogmatic fanaticism (ida'm-saccaa-bhinivesa). Olds [4.34 ] Four ties[ 4.34 ]: The covetousness tie-to-body, the anger tie-to-body, the reliance on outward practices tie-to-body, this-is-the-only-true-view-position tie-to-body. RDs [ 4.34 ] Four knots, to wit, the body-knots4.34 of covetousness, of malevolence, of inverted judgment as to rule and ritual, and of the inclination to dogmatize. *walshe: 1078 Which tie mind (naama) and body (ruupa) together. Gantha also means 'book' in the later language (see n.846). 846 Ganthe: to assume written books would be anachronistic. DA says compiling the Vedas and teaching them. 1079 Kaaya here means naama-kaaya 'mental body'. **olds: [ 4.34 ] Cattaaro ganthaa: Abbhijjhaa kaaya-gantho, vyaapaado kaaya-gantho, siilabbata-paraamaaso kaaya-gantho, ida'n-saccaabhiniveso kaaya-gantho. Gantha (in BB often misspelt gandha) [fr. ganthati] -1. a bond, fetter, trammel; always fig. and usually referring to and enumd as the four bodily ties, or knots (kaaya-, see Glossology: kaaya): S V.59=Dhs 1135; D III.230; 4 kaayaganthaa, viz., abhijjhaa, byaapaada, siilabbataparaamasa, ida.msaccaabhinivesa. - 2. [only in late Pali, and in Sk.] composition, text, book (not with ref. to books as tied together, but to books as composed, put together. See gantheti 2). -dhura the burden of the books, i. e. of studying the Scriptures, expld as one who knows by heart one, two, or all Nikaayas. Always combd w. vipassanaadhura.m, the burden of contemplation Ganthati & Gantheti [Vedic grath, granth, grathnaati, to *grem, cp. Lat. gremium; see also ga.n.thi gathita, gantha] 1. to tie, knot, bind, fasten together. Of medicines: to mix, to prepare. - pp. ganthita tied, bound, fettered: catuuhi ganthehi; - grd. ganthaniya to be tied or tending to act as a tie (of "body"). - 2. to put together, to compose. OED: gremial [med.L gremialis alumjnus, gremiale bishop's apron, f. L gremium lap, bosom] 2. A silk apron placed on a bishop's lap when celebrating Mass or conferring orders. B adj. 1. Of or pertaining to the bosom or lap Perhaps to the "piece of cloth" always carried by Old Time beggars used as a hankerchief, bib, towel, wrapper, whatsoeverall in ordinary circumstances, but which gathers great magical power over time. When eating it is placed across the lap. In Dialogs Rhys Davids translates: "knots; body-knot of covetousnes, etc., and footnotes Buddhist Psychological Ethics (PED: pp281) (1st book of the Abhidhamma, where Mrs Rhys Davids translates: "ties; bodily tie of covetousness..." and footnotes: "Gantho is defined as that which ties (or knots) or binds him for whom it exists on to the "circle" of re-birth. And the term kayagantho (body-tie) is used because the tying is effected through the body -- that is, is got in conception and rebirth." This is reasonable. But Walshe reads the commentary and notes: "Kaya here means nama-kaya 'mental body' (see discussion above, note [ 4.30.5 ] ). Note PED and BSE refer to these as kayaganthas, where this sutta calls them simply ganthas. To my perception this is just another way of describing sanyojanas. The meaning is that one who has covetousness, etc., has (is evidence of, is a sign that he has) ties to a body, and that covetousness ties one to a body. It may be obvious to some but it might be helpful to others to spell this out: it is not possible to "want" witout "wanting for 'me'"; or to be angry 'at,' without a 'because this makes 'me' feel bad; or to believe that the practice of good deeds, ethical culture and the performance of rites and rituals will result in the elimination of dukkha without a misunderstanding of the nature of anatta; or to hold on to the idea that there is any ones single point of view about anything that is the one and only way of seeing it without having a misunderstanding of the paticca samuppada or the four truths. One more thing: the reader should avoid thinking that what is being referred to here is the human body exclusively; this means any "KA-YA:" KA-kha-whatsoever that is thought of by a being as "me." See The Ninth Lesson. ***rd: 4.34Cf. Bud. Psy. Eth., p. 305, n. 1. B. repeats the same comment in both Commentaries. CSCD Cattaari upaadaanaani â€" kaamupaadaana.m [kaamuupaadaana.m (sii. pii.) evamitaresupi], di.t.thupaadaana.m, siilabbatupaadaana.m, attavaadupaadaana.m. Walshe DN 33.1.11(35) 'Four clingings (upaadaanaani): to sensuality, to views (di.t.thi), to rules and ritual (siilabbata-paaraamaasa), to ego-belief (attavaada). Olds [4.35 ] Four ways of getting bound up[ 4.35 ]: Getting bound up in pleasures, getting bound up in views, getting bound up in reliance on outward practices, getting bound up in one point of view. RDs [ 4.35 ] Four graspings,4.35 to wit, the laying hold of sensual desires, of error, of rules and rites, of the soul-theory. **olds: [ 4.35 ] Cattaari upaadaani: Kaamuupaadaana.m, di.t.thuupaadaana.m, saalabbatuupaadaana.m, attavaaduupaadaana.m. Upaadaana (nt.) [fr. upa + aa + daa] -- (lit. that (material) substratum by means of which an active process is kept alive or going), fuel, supply, provision; adj. supported by, drawing one's existence from S I.69; II 85 (aggikkhandho -assa pariyaadaanaa by means of taking up fuel); V.284 (vaat-); J III.342 sa-upaadaana (adj.) provided with fuel S IV.399; anupaadaana without fuel. 2. (appld.) "drawing upon", grasping, holding on, grip, attachment; adj. finding one's support by or in, clinging to, taking up, nourished by. They are classified as 4 upaadaanaani or four Graspings viz. kaam-, di.t.th-, siilabbat-, attavaad- or the graspings arising from sense-desires, speculation, belief in rites, belief in the soul-theory D II.58; III.230; M I.51, 66; S II.3; V 59. - sa- full of attachment (to life) M I.65; Vin III.111; S IV.102; an- unattached, not showing attachment to existence S IV.399; Vin III.111. See The 10th Lesson: Downbound Confounded Rebounding Conjuration Downbound Hunger/Thirst Rebounds Bound up Bound up (UPADANA, Going after getting) Downbound Bound up, Rebound Bound up Living (BHAVA, also > behavior, becoming) or, restated another way: Could there be any Living of any kind by any kind of being in any sort of realm of being if there were no "Going after Getting Life" by any kind of being in any sort of realm of being? No, there could not be any living of any kind by any being in any realm of being if there were no "going after getting life" by any being in any realm of being. Therefore Living arises dependant on Going After Getting. Could there be any Going after Getting if there were no Wanting to get? No, there could be no going after getting if there were no wanting. Therefore Going After Getting arises dependant on Wanting. ***rd: 4.35In other words, 'takings, seizings.' Comy. CSCD Catasso yoniyo â€" a.n.dajayoni, jalaabujayoni, sa.msedajayoni, opapaatikayoni. Walshe DN 33.1.11(36) 'Four kinds of generation: *1080 from an egg, fro a womb, from moisture, *1081 spontaneous rebirth (opapaatika-yoni). *1082 [iii 231] Olds [4.36 ] Four wombs:[ 4.36 ]: The womb of the egg-born, the womb of the embryo-born, the womb of the mitosis-born, the womb of the spontaneously appearing. RDs [ 4.36 ] Four matrices, to wit, the matrix of birth by an egg, the viviparous matrix, the matrix of moist places, and rebirth as deva. *walshe: 1080 Yoniyo: 'wombs'. Further details are given in MN 12. 1081 'As from rotting fish, etc.' (MN 12). 1082 Rebirth in the deva world (also as a Non-Returner). **olds: [ 4.36 ] Catasso yoniyo: A.n.daja-yoni, jalaabuja-yoni, sa'nedaja-yoni, opapaatika-yoni. Yoni (f.) [Vedic yoni] 1. the womb. - 2. origin, way of birth, place of birth, realm of existence; nature, matrix. There are four yonis or ways of being born or generation, viz. a.n.daja oviparous creation, jalaabuja viviparous, sa'nsedaja moisture-sprung, opapaatika spontaneous: M I.73; D III.230; - Freq. in foll. combns: tiracchaana- the class of animals, the brute creation A I.37, 60; V.269; naaga- birth among the Naagas S III.240 sq. (in ref. to which the 4 kinds of birth, as mentioned above, are also applied); Vism 102 (niraya--naaga--yoni); pasu-=tiracchaana- ; pisaaca- world of the Pisaacas S I.209; peta- the realm of the Petas PvA 68 (cp. peta) (Ghosts). -kamma- K. as origin A III.186. - yoni upaparikkhitabba (=ki.mjaatikaa etc.) S III.42. -ayoni unclean origin Th 1, 219. - 3. thoroughness, knowledge, insight. -ayoni superficiality in thought S I.203 ("muddled ways" Mrs. Rh. D.). -yoniso (abl.) "down to its origin or foundation," i. e. thoroughly, orderly, wisely, properly, judiciously S I.203 ("in ordered governance" K.S. I.259); D I.118 (wisely). Opp. ayoniso disorderly improperly. - Esp. frequent in phrase yoniso manasikaara "fixing one's attention with a purpose or thoroughly," proper attention, "having thorough method in one's thought" (K.S. I.259). See also manasikaara. - Opp. ayoniso manasikaara disorderly or distracted attention D III.273. In BSk. the same phrase: yonisho manasikaarah. See further on term Dial. III.218 ("systematized attention"); K.S. I.131; II.6 ("radical grasp"). -ja born from the A.n.da (nt.) [Etym. unknown. Cp. Sk. a.n.da] 1. an egg - 2. (pl.) the testicles - 3. a water--bag Jalaabu [Sk. jaraayu, slough & placenta, to jar see jarati, originally that which decays (=decidua); cp. Gr. gh_ras slough.] 1. the womb - 2. the embryo - 3. the placenta The distinguishing difference between the egg-born and the embryo born is in the direct linkage and contact (or absense of such) of the embryo with the mother. Seda (+sa'n) [Vedic sveda, fr. svid, cp. Av. xvaeda, Gr. i)drw/s, Lat. sudor, Ags. svaat=E. sweat] sweat. Usually as above "moisture" but this may actually be indicating a view more consistant with the way it would look to the modern scientist: mitosis, the process of division whereby a cell divides to form two identical cells, something that has a strong resemblance to sweating Opapaatika (adj.) [fr. upapatti; the BSk. form is a curious distortion of the P. form, viz. aupapaaduka Av. SH II.89; Divy 300, 627, 649] arisen or reborn without visible cause (i. e. without parents), spontaneous rebirth, apparitional rebirth D I.27, 55, 156; III.132, 230 (-yoni), 265; M I.34, 73, 287, 401 sq., 436 sq, 465 sq.; II.52; III.22, 80, 247; S III.206, 240 sq., 246 sq.; IV.348; V.346, 357 sq., 406; A I.232, 245, 269; II.5, 89, 186; IV.12, 226, 399, 423 sq.; V. 265 sq., 286 sq., 343 sq. This is most important to Buddhists in that it is the manner in which the Non-returner is reborn into his final life, often, but not exclusively in the Sudhavassa Realms. Others are even reborn here in this manner. This is the manner in which those who were previously in the Asanna realm are reborn when a thought occurs to them. Sincerely, Nina, connie, Scott. #100363 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/26/2009 11:51:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, #100167 --- On Thu, 20/8/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: Again, I don't think we need to be seeking awakening - just understanding of what is conditioned now. One moment at a time. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---- H:>> I consider that contrary to the Buddha's teachings. Gotama, himself, sought awakening, and he taught again and again the urgency for doing so. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- >S: Bhaddekeratta Sutta in MN, transl by Nanamoli/Bodhi: "Let not a person revive the past or on the future build his hopes; <...> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---- H:> I know that we are both correct. For one thing, what the Buddha taught depended on who was being taught, and when: What is useful for one (on one occasion) may be not useful for another (or for the same person on a different occasion). Moreover, practice for jhana and for awakening is not a matter of clinging to the past or imagining a particular future, but instead, as the foregoing states, to see each presently arisen state with a mind that is unshakeable and ardent. The Buddha again and again taught both the urgency of practice and, as a central aspect of that practice, the non-clinging to the past, to hopes for the future, to opinions, or to anything else. .... S: So far, so good:-)) ... >Dhamma practice is neither a matter of desire or belief, but of action. ... S: Would you describe right understanding, accompanied by the other path factors (excluding the 3 viratis of right speech, action and liveliood for now) as being "practice" and "action"? ------------------------------------------------ No, while a degree of right understanding is essential to do anything worthwhile, I'd be more inclined to describe it largely as a *consequence* of practice, including right resolve ("And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill-will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve." â€" _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) ), bringing to mind Dhamma teachings, calming the mind through right effort and sila, and being attentive as consistently as possible to what is actually going on - avoiding getting lost in thought, in excitement, and in sloth & torpor. ------------------------------------------------ ... >I do think it important to point out, however, that initial motivation comes from desire. ... S: Let's assume we're both talking about tanha or lobha, attachment, here (and not wholesome chanda, for example). Yes, tanha is nearly always present in one guise or other. Didn't the Buddha say that it was the cause of Dukkha? Isn't it the mate that prevents us from attaining seclusion as Han always reminds us? --------------------------------------------------- Yes. Nonetheless, akusala can lead to kusala, and it is our *aversion* to suffering that is the main impetus to practice. That is reality, Sarah. --------------------------------------------------- From the Atthasalini on attachment: "Ta.nhaadutiyo puriso diigham addhaana.m sa.msara.m Itthabhaava~n~nathaabhaava.m sa.msaara.m naativattatii ti." "The man mated with craving wanders long Through life and death, nor does he get beyond His travels thus - reborn then otherwise." >The Buddha repeatedly taught in AN 4.159, for example, that "it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned." ... S: It is a condition, just like ignorance is, for eradication of defilements. This doesn't mean we actively pursue ignorance and craving. It means they must be clearly understood as the cause of all harm. --------------------------------------------------- Actually, we DO often actively perversely pursue ignorance and craving. As I recently wrote on another list in response to a wondering as to why we are unaware of the tilakkhana that are always present: <> Yet craving is also the beginning of the way out, for without the strong aversion to the pain of craving, we remain complacently enslaved. In the Upanisa Sutta we see that craving leads to suffering, which in turn serves as a support for confidence and eventual freedom from suffering. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ... >...But the motivation for such doing comes about through requisite desire. Consider the enormous desire for freedom from dukkha that Gotama himself exhibited. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - S: In the Bodhisatta's case, was this kusala or akusala chanda, kusala or akusala effort? I don't read this as being the same as the craving or desire which you refer to. --------------------------------------------------- I have no reason to think it was anything other than plain out disgust and aversion to suffering and the misery of samsara. In any case, ordinary people rarely do what is needed for them to do to extricate themselves from harmful circumstances until they reach a nadir, a point of misery so low that it overcomes their lethargy and the excuses they come up with to persuade themselves that "Things are really okay." Just look at addicts. (And each of us in our own way is an addict!) ------------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah ============================== With metta, Howard #100364 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:22 pm Subject: Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, S: "Yes. I think not just as object (which of course must be known), but also as nat.decisive support condition." Scott: Can you say more about exactly what dhamma might be serving as natural decisive support condition? Or might you be referring to how certain thoughts about things serve as that condition? Or what in particular is the conditioning factor? S: "No, not at all. However, I think there can still be subtle (for an anagami, extremely subtle) cravings and conceits that can be an (indirect) condition for final enlightenment. Conditions are very complex. Pursuing craving now, to develop insight, would definitely not be the way..." Scott: I think I know what you mean, Sarah. I'd still suggest that even when one refers to 'subtle cravings and conceits' one is still referring to that which arises prior to the thoughts that come later. One is still dealing with an autonomous and impersonal sequence of moments of consciousness which, naturally, serve in many ways as condition for the ongoing process, if that makes sense. As I see it, one is never referring to a very non-subtle notion that the thoughts about craving or aversion make anything happen. The central differentiating factor I see in any discussion occurring on this list is in the way in which anatta is understood. This may be a subtle or not-so-subtle factor, but it is as clear as can be when two discussants differ in how this is understood. I would say that the way you and I see anatta differs radically from the way others see it. This may account for the famous 'DSG view' that is so often mentioned. And this shows in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Sincerely, Scott. #100365 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Metta according to VsM requires seclusion truth_aerator Dear Sarah and all interested, > sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex (& Ciaran), > > You both make many good points in Ciaran's beautifully written #100169 and Alex's #100170. I'm not sure if Ciaran is reading/responding, so I'll reply to Alex's now: > > --- On Fri, 21/8/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >Few things: It may be easier for a unconcentrated beginner to develop metta in seclusion because you aren't surrounded by angry people (such as a boss or coworker). > ... > S: Aren't these just the kinds of occasions that the Buddha >encouraged us to develop metta? It's easy to be friendly and loving >when everyone's being nice to us, but isn't the test, the challenge, This is my belief: You practice metta on the easiest type of people and in as good circumstances as possible, and THEN increase the difficulty by trying it on neutral people and eventually on people you don't like. It is like lifting weights. You lift light at first and then as you get stronger you lift heavier ones. Same about metta in retreat and in daily life. First you practice developing metta in as ideal as possible circumstances, and then as you gain some skill you need to challenge yourself more. These similar things are described in VsM, Vim etc. It is GRADUAL. You don't build 2nd floor until you made the 1st one. > >The Vissudhimagga IX, 1 does say: > > "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place. To start with, he should review the danger in hate and the advantage in patience." > > ==== > > >Note "sever the impediments" and "he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place". > > Impediments VsM III, 29 > "[The Ten Impediments] > Firstly it was said above, he should sever any of the ten impediments > that he may have. [90] Now the 'ten impediments' are > A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, > And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten" > ========== > S: I think Ken H gave a good answer. Are we talking about the person about to attain jhana or are talking about metta in daily life, such as now? >>>>>>> We are talking about powerful metta. Metta after Jhana is one thing, metta with a hindrance filled mind is another. With metta, Alex #100366 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam jonoabb Hi KenO (100223) > your original post in 99934, > < understanding is to be developed first and then concentration. > > In terms of the development of vipassana and samatha, there is no need to make > any choice.>> > > then how you are saying > <> > > hmm ???? are you trying to confuse me, Sorry for any confusion ;-)). Let me try to explain what I meant. In terms of the path factors -- which, as you know, are the mental factors accompanying path consciousness or mundane insight -- right view (= panna) is the forerunner. I understand "forerunner" here to mean something like "leader", rather than something that is developed in isolation of, and prior to, the other path factors. That panna takes a dhamma as its object and knows something about the true nature of that dhamma. The panna that accompanies samatha, however, contemplates the (conceptual) samatha object; it does not directly experience anything about the characteristic of a dhamma. This kind of panna cannot be the forerunner of the path factors. > hmm.. so right view is first or not for the path... While right view is the forerunner, it is contemporaneous with the other path factors. Hoping this clarifies my earlier remarks. Jon #100367 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:42 am Subject: Re: why Sujin recommends dry insight jonoabb Hi Robert (100241) > =============== > Ok, to me it indicates that having an erect posture was recommended for this object. > =============== A couple of points to put the passage in context. First, adopting a particular posture for the purpose of developing samatha could only be of use in that regard if there was already the developed panna that was able to distinguish kusala from (subtle) akusala. Otherwise, it would just be akusala that was being developed. Secondly, for those monks of such developed panna, and who were leading the life of a jhana developer, the same sitting posture was adopted regardless of the object, as I understand it. In other words, the use of such a posture is not specific to certain objects only. =============== > However, when your read that passage it indicates that posture plays no role, is that correct? =============== As a matter of doctrine, there is no connection made in the texts between posture and samatha development, as I understand it. For the reason mentioned above, there must have already been considerable development before adopting a particular posture can be an appropriate thing to do. Do you see posture as being relevant from the outset in the development of samatha? Jon #100368 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: space, continued. Part 2. jonoabb Hi Nina (100224) > I hope you are doing well in Fiji. > =============== Thanks Nina. Having a slightly easier run of it this time (about time, too ...) =============== > Seems a long stay. =============== Just the usual 3 weeks. And it's now 2 down, 1 to go! =============== > N: I am also inclined, like you, to see 'not conditioned space' as an > exception. It cannot be compared with nibbaana, of course. Perhaps > the less said the better. =============== Agreed. I think I've said all I'm capable of on the matter ;-)) Jon #100369 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:50 am Subject: Re: why Sujin recommends dry insight truth_aerator > "jonoabb" wrote: > Do you see posture as being relevant from the outset in the >development of samatha? > > Jon > While nama is different from rupa there are helpful and unhelpful things. Some postures, ex: lying on the soft bed, can increase sleepiness & drowsiness. Some postures that are too painful or require a lot of cordination can produce too much restlessness. Imagine trying to get into deep deep samadhi where 5 senses totally shut off while walking or standing! Ouch! With metta, Alex #100370 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Inconvenient truth - Renunciation kenhowardau Hi Howard and Sarah, ------ <. . .> H: > > But the motivation for such doing comes about through requisite desire. Consider the enormous desire for freedom from dukkha that Gotama himself exhibited. > > S: > In the Bodhisatta's case, was this kusala or akusala chanda, kusala or akusala effort? I don't read this as being the same as the craving or desire which you refer to. -------- We all know that the Buddha used conventional language without getting "caught out" by it, and we know that we, as Dhamma students, shouldn't get caught out by it either. But it occurs to me that this use of language is not unique to the Dhamma. It is quite common in ordinary situations too. When, for example, someone tells us they have suffered a serious misfortune we commonly tell them that we are "shocked" "horrified" "terribly saddened" and so on. But both we, and the person we are talking to, know that those expressions are not to be taken too literally. Shock, horror and depression are not appropriate qualities in a friend, especially at a time of need. When the Bodhisatta saw age, sickness and death for the first time, did he really give way to silly, useless sentiments? I think the texts say he had 'loathing' and 'aversion for the world' but we should not take that in the literal, conventional, sense. ----------- <. . .> I have no reason to think it was anything other than plain out disgust and aversion to suffering and the misery of samsara. In any case, ordinary people rarely do what is needed for them to do to extricate themselves from harmful circumstances until they reach a nadir, a point of misery so low that it overcomes their lethargy and the excuses they come up with to persuade themselves that "Things are really okay." Just look at addicts. (And each of us in our own way is an addict!) ------------ Hmmm, I think most of us here have learnt to act responsibly without first sinking to the depths of depravity. :-) And that would be especially true for a Bodhisatta. Ken H #100371 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:41 am Subject: Re: why Sujin recommends dry insight rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: >> A couple of points to put the passage in context. > > First, adopting a particular posture for the purpose of developing samatha could only be of use in that regard if there was already the developed panna that was able to distinguish kusala from (subtle) akusala. Otherwise, it would just be akusala that was being developed. > Dear Jon Yes as I said in my original post,: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/99846 """But most importantly one must really understand what is kusala and akusal and at highly refined levels otherwise one will merely develop subtle pleasant feeling lobha (attachment) and mistake that for samatha."""" > Secondly, for those monks of such developed panna, and who were leading the life of a jhana developer, the same sitting posture was adopted regardless of the object, as I understand it. In other words, the use of such a posture is not specific to certain objects only. > > =============== But there are several objects of samatha that do not lead to jhana For example if one is reflecting on the Dhamma as in Dhammanusati. It is not clear to me that for those objects would one would need a sitting posture with legs locked etc. What do you make of the part that says """indicating a posture that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation...... to show firmness in the sitting position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for discerning the object. ...""" or this: 208(in the section on anapansati). """For while other meditation subjects become clearer at each higher stage, this one does not: in fact, as he goes on developing it, it becomes more subtle for him at each higher stage, and it even comes to the point at which it is no longer manifest. However, when it becomes unmanifest in this way, the bhikkhu should not get up from his seat, shake out his leather mat and go away. What should be done? He should not get up with the idea 'Shall I ask the teacher?' or 'Is my meditation subject lost?'; for by going away, and so disturbing his posture, the meditation subject has to be started anew. So he should go on sitting as he was """ Jon: As a matter of doctrine, there is no connection made in the texts between posture and samatha development, as I understand it. Robert:Ok but when I read the passage in the Visuddhimagga to me it does indicate that there is a connection. But I think you are saying it makes a difference only when one is close to jhana but not before? > > Do you see posture as being relevant from the outset in the development of samatha? > I said earlier: "In case there is any doubt I was talking about samatha devlopment for one aiming at growth and increase. Of course if one is merely talking about moments of samatha - without further development- then these moments are not so dependent on being secluded, away from noise, etc. These is also sections in the Commentaries that note that for some people postures other than sitting may be more suitable (for types of samatha). But I was speaking generally. And for the one who has mastered jhana then he can attain anywhere anytime.""" Robert #100372 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ---------- <. . .> S: > As I've hardly said anything, I'll tell you about a nice little incident that just happened as I took a tea-break outside the room. I was looking out to sea when a staff-member I don't know very well came over and gave me a little present she'd just bought at the "Hibiscus Festival', a local carnival. There was a little bag with a flower and book-mark inside. On the book-mark is written: "Guidance - The will of God will never lead you, where the grace of God cannot keep you." It has a picture of a leopard on it. I thought of you, because even though the words might be meaningless to us, I really appeciated her kind gesture. Indeed it is the kindness and friendliness of all the people here, especially the staff, that makes such a difference to our stay. When we arrived, at least 3 different staff members greeted me with a "Welcome Home!". Now, we're not going to be discussing satipatthana with them, but my question for you, Ken H is, wouldn't you always encourage children, anyone, to develop generosity and friendliness regardless? ----------- Yes. I am not so sure about a Buddha, though. But I have no firm convictions on the matter and could be persuaded either way. You could have told me the Buddha maintained a steady gaze one plough-length ahead and avoided all contact with sentient beings *except* when he was teaching satipatthana. I would have believed you. ---------------- S: > I have an idea that this topic (developing kusala that isn't satipatthana) is somehow at the root of one or two of your topics on dana that came up in KK and Bkk which we had difficulty following you on. ----------------- I am still flabbergasted. It was such a shock - at that elite gathering of no-controllers - to be told there could be no dana without an *act* of dana. I certainly wouldn't suggest that all of you were wrong and I, alone, was right. But, to my troubled mind, an act that takes place over several moments is pannatti. It can't affect anything. Ultimately, there is never an act of dana. There also has to be a gift, doesn't there? And a sentient being to receive the gift? It's all so confusing. Why can't those things be written off as mere 'stories' that satipatthana students don't need to concern themselves with? ----------------- S: > ....and on the G word, we had another funny little incident when we were kayaking the other day. We had a lunch-break, sheltering from some light rain in a large open cave (lots of space, lol!). We were all hungry and just about to take a mouthful of our rolls when the guides asked if we hadn't forgotten something. None of us knew what it was. Slightly shocked they reminded us that we'd forgotten to say Grace. One of them then turned on Jon, the senior member, and asked him to say the Grace. Pause. Jon then gave a nice little appreciation of our good fortune without mentioning the G word. Another pause - this was obviously a rather unusual Grace. Then an 'Amen' from someone and we were allowed to eat:-). Actually, a nice idea to appreciate our good vipaka before greedily tucking in. ------------------- What if that had happened to the Buddha? Prior to this thread I would have assumed the Buddha would have said the same as Jon but would have begun with "And how does a monk (a person with right understanding) say grace?" Otherwise (if the audience didn't want to know about right understanding) he would not have taken part in the conversation at all. But that's according to old Ken H. New Ken H is much more open minded. :-) Ken H PS: I don't like this subject heading. It's not true, is it? :-) #100373 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Sarah and Sukin, Still catching up: --------- <. . .> Sukin: > >Take for example metta, it being a parami is definitely superior to its development as samatha / jhana and requires satipatthana. And this samatha / jhana development is a step ahead from simple encouragement to have metta in one's day to day interaction with other people. With regard to this last, you'll agree that it is indeed very good to encourage especially when faced with the possibility of otherwise having anger towards someone. Sarah: > I'm not sure that Ken does agree with this (ignore if already clarified, Ken). I think Ken would say that as they are all only conditioned dhammas in an ultimate sense and whether it is jhana citta, ordinary metta or anger, it's still piling up the bricks of samsara, so in that sense it really doesn't matter. ----------- In think we all agree, don't we, that *in this sense* it doesn't really matter? I assumed (wrongly as it happens) that we were also all agreeing that a Buddha wouldn't concern himself with teaching dana sila and samatha without vipassana. I take it back: he definitely would. :-) -------------------- S: > Again, let me know if this touches on the point you were getting at in KK, Ken. --------------------- No, not really: the KK mix-up was more about the role of pannatti in dana. (Or, for that matter, the role of pannatti in all kusala and akusala kamma that doesn't contain vipassana.) It's a grey area for me, but I have my theories. :-) Ken H #100374 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 4, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn: When people pray do their wishes always come true? Tuna: Some people work hard but they cannot become rich, whereas others who do not work so hard have everything. This depends on what we call in Arabic "kismet", or destiny. Acharn: This is difficult to understand. The poor would like to have many things, but they cannot, even though they pray. Tuna: It is their kismet. Acharn: Should one believe in God, whether one is poor or rich, happy or unhappy? Tuna: According to an old wise man, life is a kind of examination. This life is a voyage or passage to another life. Acharn: Can the poor be happy and the rich be unhappy? What is the cause of being rich or poor? Tuna: There are very rich people who are not happy and there are poor people who are very happy; they are rich in heart. They do not attach importance to material things. Acharn: Is happiness caused by God or by yourself? Do you have the ability to condition your own feelings? Tuna: Yes, I can. Acharn: Since everyone is free as to the feeling he has, feeling is not conditioned by God. The poor can be happy if they know how to be happy. What about those who do not believe in God, can they have happy feeling? Tuna: I am sure that it is terrible not to believe in God. I met many tourists who do not believe in God. I do not understand how that can happen. Acharn: Do they still have happy feeling and unhappy feeling? People who do not believe in God live like everyone else. Everyone is born and dies, whether he believes in God or not. Tuna: Where will he be buried if he does not believe in God? Acharn: It does not matter. He will not notice anything after death. His body can be buried or cremated, it is all right. ****** Nina. #100375 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) nilovg Dear pt, Sarah will answer all your questions later on. Meanwhile, I just have one remark. Op 26-aug-2009, om 8:02 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > 1. The motion/pressure is the wind element experienced through body > consciousness. But how is it produced? I assume it would be cittaja > rupas, but I'm not sure which one of the 6 kinds mentioned by > A.Sujin. It seems to happen every time anger arises, regardless of > whether it is then followed by bodily expressions and gestures or > not. Or perhaps this production of extra wind is already a bodily > expression? ------- N: As you say you are inclined to think of ayurveda. It seems that you think of this motion in the body here or that motion near the stomach. I remember Kh Sujin reminding us: do not name anything. We have to learn to be aware of what appears. No thinking. When thinking the realities have fallen away for a long time and there is no way to just attend to their characteristics. We learn that the citta with anger conditions ruupas, but it does not help much to try to find out exactly what happens. It depends on sati and pa~n~naa what the object of mindfulness is. It has to be only one nama or rupa at a time, occurring at the present moment. Pa~n~naa can develop so that there will be more understanding of nama and rupa. Nina. #100376 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:51 am Subject: Non-Interference [Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17)] upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and pt) - In a message dated 8/28/2009 10:11:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear pt, Sarah will answer all your questions later on. Meanwhile, I just have one remark. Op 26-aug-2009, om 8:02 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > 1. The motion/pressure is the wind element experienced through body > consciousness. But how is it produced? I assume it would be cittaja > rupas, but I'm not sure which one of the 6 kinds mentioned by > A.Sujin. It seems to happen every time anger arises, regardless of > whether it is then followed by bodily expressions and gestures or > not. Or perhaps this production of extra wind is already a bodily > expression? ------- N: As you say you are inclined to think of ayurveda. It seems that you think of this motion in the body here or that motion near the stomach. I remember Kh Sujin reminding us: do not name anything. We have to learn to be aware of what appears. No thinking. When thinking the realities have fallen away for a long time and there is no way to just attend to their characteristics. ------------------------------------------------ I quite agree with that. Just stay present and attentive. No attempt to label should be made, IMO, for that is just trying to think and gain control instead of letting awareness function; it is an effort to grasp what does not remain. And when attending, do not even think of "characteristics," but just be attentive. Should labels arise in the mind, so be it - those labels are part of what comes and goes. No need to interfere with the flow or run after anything, but just remain present, holding onto nothing and pushing nothing away. ------------------------------------------------- We learn that the citta with anger conditions ruupas, but it does not help much to try to find out exactly what happens. It depends on sati and pa~n~naa what the object of mindfulness is. It has to be only one nama or rupa at a time, occurring at the present moment. Pa~n~naa can develop so that there will be more understanding of nama and rupa. ---------------------------------------------------- Yes. Don't run after "answers." Be mindful, stay present, not getting caught in thinking, excitement, or sloth & torpor, and do not try to hold onto anything . "Answers" arise by way of wisdom transforming the mind, and not by the formation of ideas. If the mind has been seeded by Dhamma study and calmed and made clear by sila and samadhi, and if mindfulness is sustained and non-interference maintained, transforming insight can arise. At least, this is how I view the matter. -------------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #100377 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Journey in Egypt and Turkey, Ch 4, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Tuna: What about his soul, the soul never dies. Acharn: Can you explain more about the soul at this moment, when death has not come yet? Tuna: We think that the soul is in the body. When one dies, the soul goes away. Acharn: When one is sleeping where is the soul? Tuna: I don't know. Acharn: Is the soul there even when one is asleep? One is not dead yet. Tuna: I think it must be there. Acharn: At this moment there is seeing. Is it the soul which sees? Is there a soul in everybody? Tuna: Sure. Acharn: When one is asleep the soul does not go away, because one is not dead yet. When we wake up in the morning there is seeing. Is it the soul which sees? Tuna: I think so. Acharn: At the moment of hearing, is it the soul which hears? Tuna: Sure. Acharn: So, the soul has many functions in a day. Seeing is one function, hearing is another function. Besides these, there are the functions of smelling, tasting, touching and thinking. I believe that the soul sleeps too. Tuna: What about dreaming? Do you believe in dreams? Acharn: Everyone dreams. So, the soul is dreaming. The body cannot dream. Tuna: I believe in dreams. I saw in my dreams events which took place later on. Acharn: What you consider as "I" or a "self" which knows is the soul which knows. There are body and mind, or, one could say, body and soul. The soul dreams, the soul sleeps, the soul likes, dislikes, feels pleasant or unpleasant. So, I understand what you mean by soul. It is different from the body. The body cannot see, but the soul is seeing. The body cannot think, but the soul is thinking. How many souls do you have? Tuna: Only one, of course. Acharn: I think that seeing is different from hearing. Seeing and hearing occur at different moments and experience different objects. Tuna: All this is deep in meaning, difficult to understand. It is beyond my thinking. ******* Nina. #100378 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:25 pm Subject: The Best Laid Plans upasaka_howard Hi, all - As Emily Litella used to say on the old 'Laugh In' show, "Never mind!" We had to cancel the cruise, because Rita is running a fever from, apparently, a case of flu. Ah well, the best laid plans ... All the best, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100379 From: Geri geri Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 5:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! sac9090 Hi does anybody know where I can get a list of the 20 illicit women that would be a breach of the third precept if one has sexual relations with them? and also is there a list of illicit men for women? Are gay sexual relations an illicit endeavor and a breach of the third precept? Thanks. And does anybody know why I can't post messages and start a new topic on the Groups page? #100380 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:44 pm Subject: Silenced! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Sweet is Verbal, Bodily & Mental Silence! The Blessed Buddha once said: Kayamunim vacamunim, manomunimanasavam, munim moneyyasampannam. Ahu ninhatapapakam. Silenced in body, silenced in speech, silenced in mind, without inner noise, blessed with silence is the sage! He is truly washed of all evil... Itivuttaka 3.67 Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his action. So is the tranquillity; So is the serenity; of one freed by the insight of right understanding... Dhammapada 96 <...> Have a nice calm day! Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, <...> #100381 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:20 pm Subject: Great Compassion! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Feel Pity for all those Falling: It is a great pity with all those beings thinking: Pleasure is the only good; by that they fall! Terror is the only goal; by that they fall! Sensuality is innocent; by that they fall! Violence is allowable; by that they fall! Money makes happy; by that they fall! Power is progress; by that they fall! Falsehood is OK; by that they fall! Stealing makes rich; by that they fall! Conceit covers up; by that they fall! Science knows all; by that they fall! Killing can be good; by that they fall! Hunting is only fun; by that they fall! Adultery is matured; by that they fall! Paedophilia is harmless; by that they fall! Drugs is fantastic; by that they fall! Booze is medicine; by that they fall! Giving does not help; by that they fall! After death is nothing!; by that they fall! The Hells do not exist; by that they fall! Action has no effect; by that they fall! I am the better than...; by that they fall! Making merit cannot elevate; by that they fall! It is a great pity with all those beings: who is veiled by wrong view; by that they fall! who is fooled by own opinion; by that they fall! who is gripped by greed and lust; by that they fall! who is stirred by hate and anger; by that they fall! who is clinging to anything worldly; by that they fall! who is confused by not knowing; by that they fall! who prostitutes themselves; by that they fall! who cheat and deceives; by that they fall! who pretends what is not; by that they fall! who hides what is actual fact; by that they fall! who destroys beings or things; by that they fall! who pollute milieu and society; by that they fall! who deliberately do evil knowing it; by that they fall! who fails their duties and obligations; by that they fall! who misses the obvious opportunities; by that they fall! It is a great pity with all those blinded by ignorance, bound and dragged by craving, while pushed by aversion: By that they surely fall into states of pain, agony and despair! As if gripped by the arms by two strong men and hurled into a big fire... <...> Have a nice compassionate day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net Great Compassion! #100382 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:16 am Subject: Re: why Sujin recommends dry insight jonoabb Hi Rob (100371) > Yes as I said in my original post,: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/99846 > """But most importantly one must really understand what is kusala and > akusal and at highly refined levels otherwise one will merely develop subtle > pleasant feeling lobha (attachment) and mistake that for samatha."""" > =============== OK, but the understanding we are speaking of -- the understanding of what is kusala and akusala and at highly refined levels -- is already a relatively advanced stage of samatha. So any idea of the development of samatha being posture-dependent obviously has no application in this context. =============== > > Secondly, for those monks of such developed panna, and who were leading the life of a jhana developer, the same sitting posture was adopted regardless of the object, as I understand it. In other words, the use of such a posture is not specific to certain objects only. > > > > =============== > But there are several objects of samatha that do not lead to jhana For example if one is reflecting on the Dhamma as in Dhammanusati. It is not clear to me that for those objects would one would need a sitting posture with legs locked etc. =============== I agree. I would see the reference to such a posture as having relevance only in the context of jhana/access attainment (or thereabouts), and not the development of samatha per se. =============== > What do you make of the part that says """indicating a posture > that is peaceful and tends neither to idleness nor to agitation...... to show firmness in the sitting > position, easy occurrence of the in-breaths and out-breaths, and the means for > discerning the object. ...""" =============== It seems to be part of the means for discerning the object (but not for the arising of kusala citta). =============== > or this: 208(in the section on anapansati). """For while other meditation subjects become clearer at each higher stage, this one does not: in fact, as he goes on developing it, it becomes more subtle for him at each higher stage, and it even comes to the point at which it is no longer manifest. > However, when it becomes unmanifest in this way, the bhikkhu should not get up from his seat, shake out his leather mat and go away. What should be done? He should not get up with the idea 'Shall I ask the teacher?' or 'Is my meditation subject lost?'; for by going away, and so disturbing his posture, the meditation subject has to be started anew. So he should go on sitting as he was """ =============== As for the earlier passage immediately above. =============== > Jon: As a matter of doctrine, there is no connection made in the texts between posture and samatha development, as I understand it. > > Robert:Ok but when I read the passage in the Visuddhimagga to me it does indicate that there is a connection. But I think you are saying it makes a difference only when one is close to jhana but not before? =============== I would say the relevance of the posture is to do with maintaining the object, not with the arising of kusala citta. =============== > > Do you see posture as being relevant from the outset in the development of samatha? > > > > I said earlier: > "In case there is any doubt I was talking about samatha devlopment for one aiming > at growth and increase. Of course if one is merely talking about moments of > samatha - without further development- then these moments are not so dependent > on being secluded, away from noise, etc. =============== I think everyone here is interested in "growth and increase" of samatha, rather than mere moments of samatha. Do you see posture as being relevant to that growth and increase? Jon #100383 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:17 am Subject: Re: why Sujin recommends dry insight jonoabb Hi Alex Nice to see you back again. (100369) > > Do you see posture as being relevant from the outset in the >development of samatha? > > While nama is different from rupa there are helpful and unhelpful things. > > Some postures, ex: lying on the soft bed, can increase sleepiness & drowsiness. Some postures that are too painful or require a lot of cordination can produce too much restlessness. > =============== My question (to Robert) concerned the development of samatha at whatever level. For example, in our daily life, whenever another being is the object of our consciousness, there will either be kusala citta with metta or akusala citta of one kind or the other. If the citta is kusala, then there is the possibility of the development of metta at that time. Posture plays no role in this, as I see it. =============== > Imagine trying to get into deep deep samadhi where 5 senses totally shut off while walking or standing! Ouch! =============== Why the interest in "deep samadhi" when that is rarely, if ever, the current situation? Moments of kusala arising during the day are a more relevant aspect of samatha for us. Jon #100384 From: Geri geri Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 6:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Great Compassion! sac9090 May I ask are any of the verses written below taken directly from the Tipitaka? --- On Sat, 8/29/09, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: From: Bhikkhu Samahita Subject: [dsg] Great Compassion! To: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Saturday, August 29, 2009, 7:20 AM Friends: Feel Pity for all those Falling: It is a great pity with all those beings thinking: Pleasure is the only good; by that they fall! Terror is the only goal; by that they fall! Sensuality is innocent; by that they fall! Violence is allowable; by that they fall! Money makes happy; by that they fall! Power is progress; by that they fall! Falsehood is OK; by that they fall! Stealing makes rich; by that they fall! Conceit covers up; by that they fall! Science knows all; by that they fall! Killing can be good; by that they fall! Hunting is only fun; by that they fall! Adultery is matured; by that they fall! Paedophilia is harmless; by that they fall! Drugs is fantastic; by that they fall! Booze is medicine; by that they fall! Giving does not help; by that they fall! After death is nothing!; by that they fall! The Hells do not exist; by that they fall! Action has no effect; by that they fall! I am the better than...; by that they fall! Making merit cannot elevate; by that they fall! It is a great pity with all those beings: who is veiled by wrong view; by that they fall! who is fooled by own opinion; by that they fall! who is gripped by greed and lust; by that they fall! who is stirred by hate and anger; by that they fall! who is clinging to anything worldly; by that they fall! who is confused by not knowing; by that they fall! who prostitutes themselves; by that they fall! who cheat and deceives; by that they fall! who pretends what is not; by that they fall! who hides what is actual fact; by that they fall! who destroys beings or things; by that they fall! who pollute milieu and society; by that they fall! who deliberately do evil knowing it; by that they fall! who fails their duties and obligations; by that they fall! who misses the obvious opportunities; by that they fall! It is a great pity with all those blinded by ignorance, bound and dragged by craving, while pushed by aversion: By that they surely fall into states of pain, agony and despair! As if gripped by the arms by two strong men and hurled into a big fire... <...> #100385 From: "christine_forsyth" Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Geri geri wrote: > > Hi does anybody know where I can get a list of the 20 illicit women that would be a breach of the third precept if one has sexual relations with them? and also is there a list of illicit men for women? Are gay sexual relations an illicit endeavor and a breach of the third precept? Thanks. And does anybody know why I can't post messages and start a new topic on the Groups page? > Hello Geri geri, Bhikkhu Bodhi gives a summary: 3. The Third Precept: Abstinence from Misconduct in regard to Sense Pleasures Misconduct is regard to sense pleasures is formally defined as "the volition with sexual intent occurring through the bodily door, causing transgression with an illicit partner".8 The primary question this definition elicits is: who is to qualify as an illicit partner? For men, the text lists twenty types of women who are illicit partners. These can be grouped into three categories: (1) a woman who is under the protection of elders or other authorities charged with her care, e.g., a girl being cared for by parents, by an older brother or sister, by other relatives, or by the family as a whole; (2) a woman who is prohibited by convention, that is, close relatives forbidden under family tradition, nuns and other women vowed to observe celibacy as a spiritual discipline, and those forbidden as partners under the law of the land; and (3) a woman who is married or engaged to another man, even one bound to another man only by a temporary agreement. In the case of women, for those who are married any man other than a husband is an illicit partner. For all women a man forbidden by tradition or under religious rules is prohibited as a partner. For both men and women any violent, forced, or coercive union, whether by physical compulsion or psychological pressure, can be regarded as a transgression of the precept even when the partner is not otherwise illicit. But a man or woman who is widowed or divorced can freely remarry according to choice. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel282.html metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #100386 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! hantun1 Dear Geri geri and Chris, To start with, I am very grateful to Chris for posting the article, Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts, by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, which is very useful for me. The following is the list of 20 forbidden women, which I got it from a Burmese book. (1) Maatu-rakkhita = woman under the protection of mother (2) Pitu-rakkhita = woman under the protection of father (3) Maataapitu-rakkhita = woman under the protection of mother and father (4) Bhaatu-rakkhita = woman under the protection of brothers (5) Bhaginii-rakkhita = woman under the protection of sisters (6) ~Naati-rakkhita = under the protection of relatives (7) Gotta-rakkhita = woman under the protection of family as a whole, or by family tradition (8) Dhamma-rakkhita = woman under the protection of dhamma-practicing colleagues (nuns) (9) Saarakkha = woman earmarked for marriage since birth, woman already engaged (10) Saparida.n.da = woman protected by risk of punishment (already selected by the king in olden days) (11) Dhanakkiita = woman already married with someone who gave her wealth (12) Chandavaasinii = woman already married with her consent (13) Bhogavaasinii = woman already married with someone who asked her to take care his wealth (14) Pa.tavaasinii = woman already married with someone who gave her clothing and jewelry (15) Odapattakinii = woman already married in the presence of the Elders and parents (16) Obhatacumba.taa = woman who was doing menial work, and was married by the master (17) Daasi-bhariyaa = woman servant as well as wife (married by the master) (18) Kammakaarii = woman slave or woman worker married by the master (19) Dhajaaha.taa = woman taken in a raid, but subsequently taken as a wife by the master (20) Muhuttikaa = temporary wife of a man (prostitute) kind regards, Han #100387 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam ashkenn2k Hi Jon I understand "forerunner" here to mean something like "leader", rather than something that is developed in isolation of, and prior to, the other path factors. KO: agreed :-) by the way why are we discussing this in the first place. :-). That panna takes a dhamma as its object and knows something about the true nature of that dhamma. The panna that accompanies samatha, however, contemplates the (conceptual) samatha object; it does not directly experience anything about the characteristic of a dhamma. This kind of panna cannot be the forerunner of the path factors. KO: It always interest me what is the difference of the panna in the jhanas. IMHO - mundane jhanas are more of understanding characterisitics of impermanent or pain which are visible by these ordinary people. However only anatta is the domain of the Buddha as said in Dispeller of Delusion. My interpretation is that these non-Buddhist practitioners do understand the characteristics of dhamma but without anatta being taught to them, there is no salvation as craving for being is a very potent paccaya for endless kamma. Only through understanding of the 24 paccaya which I believe leads to the understanding of anatta, then one able to end the cycle of life and death. Just my humble thoughts. Cheers Ken O #100388 From: Ken O Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Fire Sermon and understanding this present moment ashkenn2k Dear Lukas thanks for the sutta reference, I like to share this with you Dispeller of Delusion <<233.  But it s no self (anatta) in the sense of powerlessness. Or because there is no exercise of power in these three instances, [namely] "this being arise, let it not reach presence; having reached presence, let it not grow old; having grown old, let it not break up" and it is void f this quality of having power exercised over it (vasavattana). There it is no-self for these four reasons, [namely,] because it is void, because it has no owner, because of not, behaving as desired (akamakariya) [and] because of exclusion of self.>> I felt when people desire to develop dhamma, they ususally miscontrue chanda (zeal or wish to do) with lobha. This is taken from Nina's Cetasika  Kusala chanda is a necessary factor for the development of the eightfold Path. If there is no wish-to-do one does not develop it. However, we do not have to try to have chanda, it arises because of its own conditions together with the citta which develops the eightfold Path.  We read in the Kindred Sayings(V, MahĂĄ-vagga, XLV, Kindred Sayings on the Way, Chapter IV, II, Restraint of Passion, §3) that chanda is one of the factors which are “forerunners” of the arising of the ariyan eightfold Path: Just as, monks, the dawn is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the sun, so possession of desire (chanda) is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the ariyan eightfold way. Of a monk who is possessed of desire, monks, it may be expected that he will cultivate the ariyan eightfold way, that he will make much of the ariyan eightfold way… Cheers Ken O #100389 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sarah Goes Against Abhidhamma As Well As Vanapattha Suttam jonoabb Hi KenO (100387) > I understand "forerunner" here to mean something like "leader", rather than something that is developed in isolation of, and prior to, the other path factors. > > KO: agreed :-) by the way why are we discussing this in the first place. :-). > =============== A good question. I've forgotten how this all came up ;-)) =============== > That panna takes a dhamma as its object and knows something about the true nature of that dhamma. > > The panna that accompanies samatha, however, contemplates the (conceptual) samatha object; it does not directly experience anything about the characteristic of a dhamma. This kind of panna cannot be the forerunner of the path factors. > > KO: It always interest me what is the difference of the panna in the jhanas. IMHO - mundane jhanas are more of understanding characterisitics of impermanent or pain which are visible by these ordinary people. However only anatta is the domain of the Buddha as said in Dispeller of Delusion. My interpretation is that these non-Buddhist practitioners do understand the characteristics of dhamma but without anatta being taught to them, there is no salvation as craving for being is a very potent paccaya for endless kamma. Only through understanding of the 24 paccaya which I believe leads to the understanding of anatta, then one able to end the cycle of life and death. =============== To my understanding, a person who has not heard the teachings in the current life cannot know what dhammas are. The panna of such a person can only know the difference between kusala and akusala, the danger in sense-impressions, and the means of suppressing those sense-impressions by contemplation on a suitable object. Like the characteristic of anatta, the existence of dhammas is something that is peculiar to the teaching of a Buddha. Jon #100390 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. kenhowardau Hi Sukin and Sarah, I posted my previous message too soon and left this bit out. --------- Sukin: > I don't remember anything about those discussions with Phil and Han. But I wonder, does the `gradual instruction' mean any particular order in terms of dana, sila, samatha, vipassana? Or was it that the Buddha knew exactly the right thing to say taking into account the listener's accumulations, such that his words acted as natural decisive support condition for kusala of different levels to arise? And this would at each instant be, as you say, with the `goal' in mind? I find it hard to accept that there is some particular order of teaching, but I'm sure that this is not what you are saying. Ken, what do you think about this? --------- I join you and Sarah in thinking there is no particular order. With regard to the term "gradual training" I say let's not forget that, right now, there are only dhammas. Who cares whether our gradually accumulated understanding of that fact is a deep or shallow one? It is only a dhamma after all! :-) Ken H PS: Don't take too much notice of my "role of pannatti in kamma" ramblings. I am sure I have aired it all before and had it perfectly explained. In fact, I can remember Jon explaining why there had to be a "sentient being" before there could be killing or other kamma-pathas. Now if I could just remember what he said! :-) #100391 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:46 am Subject: Non-Interference [Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17)] ptaus1 Dear Nina and Howard, Thanks for your comments. I'm sure you are correct, and it would be great if I could say that the ideal approach you describe is happening in my experience. But I'm not nearly as advanced student as you are, so my reality is that real insights happen rarely and awareness last for very, very short time, so the rest of the time I spend in studying and thinking over how what I read relates to those few insight experiences. That's the best I can do at the moment. I know that there's not much use in thinking, but if I try to stop it, I can only do it in a very akusala way (through aversion to thinking), so at the moment the best seems to be to let it happen, and hopefully from time to time I can be simply aware that there's thinking at the moment, without trying to hold onto it or stop it, and hopefully that will lead to the ideal approach that you are describing. Nina, incidentally, since you mentioned thinking - I have about 20 questions written down relating to nimitta, concepts and thinking, and I was just waiting for the opportunity to arise to start asking them ;-) I'll start another thread about it in a few days. Best wishes pt > N: As you say you are inclined to think of ayurveda. It seems that > you think of this motion in the body here or that motion near the > stomach. I remember Kh Sujin reminding us: do not name anything. We > have to learn to be aware of what appears. No thinking. When thinking > the realities have fallen away for a long time and there is no way to > just attend to their characteristics. > ------------------------------------------------ > I quite agree with that. Just stay present and attentive. No attempt > to label should be made, IMO, for that is just trying to think and gain > control instead of letting awareness function; it is an effort to grasp what > does not remain. And when attending, do not even think of "characteristics," > but just be attentive. Should labels arise in the mind, so be it - those > labels are part of what comes and goes. No need to interfere with the flow or > run after anything, but just remain present, holding onto nothing and > pushing nothing away. > ------------------------------------------------- > > We learn that the citta with > anger conditions ruupas, but it does not help much to try to find out > exactly what happens. It depends on sati and pa~n~naa what the object > of mindfulness is. It has to be only one nama or rupa at a time, > occurring at the present moment. Pa~n~naa can develop so that there > will be more understanding of nama and rupa. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Yes. Don't run after "answers." Be mindful, stay present, not getting > caught in thinking, excitement, or sloth & torpor, and do not try to hold > onto anything . "Answers" arise by way of wisdom transforming the mind, and > not by the formation of ideas. If the mind has been seeded by Dhamma study > and calmed and made clear by sila and samadhi, and if mindfulness is > sustained and non-interference maintained, transforming insight can arise. At > least, this is how I view the matter. #100392 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Please comment on this description of the path ptaus1 Hi Jon, Regarding infinite regress in post 99030: > > =============== > > J: Both samatha and vipassana are developed by the arising of previously > > accumulated samatha and vipassana. > > ============================ > > H: Do you realize that this speaks of infinite regress? > > J: I suppose it depends on one's definition of infinite regress, but at the moment I don't see how infinite regress could be involved in that statement. > pt: I'd like to ask if you can say a bit more on this topic. Though I find the accumulations approach useful, I don't know how to bring it to a logical conclusion regarding the point of origin. For example, if we say that development of X (samatha, vipassana, or whatever mental property) in this life depends on the development of X in the previous life, then the same is true for the life before that, and the life before that, and so on. However, the above explanation also logically implies that if there was no X in the previous life to begin with, then no X can ever be developed in this or subsequent lives. So then, the only way (that I can think of) to develop X in the first place would have to be through an "outside influence" - accident (like meeting a Buddha), a divine intervention, or through one's own intention (i.e. a self that intends). But then, if everything is a result of accumulations, then there are no accidents (meeting a Buddha is also due to accumulations), the same would be true of a divine intervention, and there's no conventional self-intention either because it is just a cetasika dependent or previous accumulations. So, all this still doesn't provide a solution. I hope this explains the logical problem I'm unable to solve and would be interested to hear how you and others have solved it. Best wishes pt #100393 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:18 pm Subject: Gracious Gratitude! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Appropriate Appreciation is Gratitude! One should be grateful towards one's Parents! Why so? They have worked hard and very long raising one into being! One should be grateful towards one's Teachers! Why so? They do much to make one learn and understand the good... One should be grateful towards one's Friends! Why so? They have shown one an open kindness and much goodwill! One should be grateful towards one's Spouse! Why so? They have loyally accompanied one along a long way... What is the future kammic effect of gratitude or ungratefulness? The one who is grateful will receive gifts and favours ever again! The one who is ungrateful will never again receive gifts or favours ! Thankfulness wisely invested thus pays back quite a lot! Therefore: Always Say Thanx! Thanx for Your Attention! ;-) <...> Have a nice gracious day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #100394 From: "ksheri3" Date: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! ksheri3 What makes something or/and someone FORBIDEN? IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT? IS IT WRONG TO NOT GO TO BED DREAMING OF BEING MURDERED IN YOUR SLEAP <...> WHAT IS WRONG? WHAT IS THIS PERVERSION CALLED EVIL? WHICH CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG, THE CRIME OR THE POLICE OFFICER, GOOD OR EVIL? come now, if these questions cannot be easily answered, THEN ISN'T IT PROBABLY AND LIKELY that the person is under the influence of the drug called MONOTHEISM and EGO? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Geri geri and Chris, > > To start with, I am very grateful to Chris for posting the article, Going for Refuge & Taking the Precepts, by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, which is very useful for me. > > The following is the list of 20 forbidden women, which I got it from a Burmese book. <...> #100395 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:43 am Subject: Reminder: Trimming posts, salutations etc dsgmods Hi All, Just a couple of reminders. Salutations & sign-offs Please make it clear whom your post is addressed to (even if it's 'All'), and sign off at the end of every post (whether short or long) with your name. Trimming When replying to another member’s post, please remember to delete any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply. Please also review the rest of the guidelines from time to time. They can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Thanks for your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS As usual, any comments on this - off-list only. Thanks. #100396 From: han tun Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:13 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (47) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 5. Subtle Ruupas produced by Kamma (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ Life faculty, the ruupa which is jiivitindriya, is also a subtle ruupa produced by kamma from the first moment of life and throughout life. Apart from ruupa-jiivitindriya there is also naama-jiivitindriya. Naama-jiivitindriya is a cetasika among the "universals", cetasikas which accompany every citta. This cetasika supports the citta and the cetasikas it arises together with, it maintains their life. The ruupa that is life faculty, ruupa-jiivitindriya, sustains and maintains the ruupas it accompanies in one group of ruupas. This kind of ruupa is produced solely by kamma, it arises only in living beings. Therefore, the ruupas in the bodies of living beings are different from those in dead matter or plants which are produced solely by temperature or the element of heat. The ruupa that is life faculty is contained in each group of ruupas of the body produced by kamma. Life faculty is a "controlling faculty" (indriya), it has a dominating influence over the other ruupas it arises together with since it maintains their life. The "Visuddhimagga" (XIV, 59) states about life faculty. [Note 2] "The life faculty has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter. [Note 3] Its function is to make them occur. It is manifested in the establishing of their presence. Its proximate cause is primary elements that are to be sustained." Life faculty maintains the other ruupas it arises together with in one group, and then it falls away together with them. The "Visuddhimagga" (in the same section) states: "It does not prolong presence at the moment of dissolution because it is itself dissolving, like the flame of a lamp when the wick and the oil are getting used up.... " We cling to our body as something alive. Ruupas of a "living body" have a quality lacking in dead matter or plants, they are supported by the life faculty. We are inclined to take this quality for "self", but it is only a ruupa produced by kamma. [Note 2] See also Dhammasanga.nii § 635. The Atthasaalinii refers to its definition of naama-jívitindriya (I, Part IV, Ch I, 123, 124). [Note 3] The ruupas arising together with it. ------------------------------ Chapter 5. Subtle Ruupas produced by Kamma to be continued. with metta, Han #100397 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:55 am Subject: Re: Non-Interference [Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17)] upasaka_howard Hi, pt (and Nina) - In a message dated 8/29/2009 11:47:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Dear Nina and Howard, Thanks for your comments. I'm sure you are correct, and it would be great if I could say that the ideal approach you describe is happening in my experience. But I'm not nearly as advanced student as you are, so my reality is that real insights happen rarely and awareness last for very, very short time, so the rest of the time I spend in studying and thinking over how what I read relates to those few insight experiences. That's the best I can do at the moment. I know that there's not much use in thinking, but if I try to stop it, I can only do it in a very akusala way (through aversion to thinking), so at the moment the best seems to be to let it happen, and hopefully from time to time I can be simply aware that there's thinking at the moment, without trying to hold onto it or stop it, and hopefully that will lead to the ideal approach that you are describing. ----------------------------------------------- It's not that thinking is "bad," and it is definitely not that thoughts will not arise when attending to experience. What is a problem is when we become "lost in thought," attached to it - grasping at it, with attention adverted to it and away from all else, especially when engaged in "formal meditation," as some are wont to call that. I have found that when mindfulness is strong, thinking (among other phenomena) is observed w/0 getting caught up, and the thoughts just come and go like all else. Mindfulness serves to guard the mind. It leads to enough clarity of "vision" so that what is useful tends to be naturally sustained and what is harmful is naturally released without special intention needing to be applied. Ven Nyanaponika wrote some good things about mindfulness if you can find that on the net. I have a book by him that I value highly but that I think is now out of print , a book entitled, I believe, A Vision of Mindfulness. ------------------------------------------------ Nina, incidentally, since you mentioned thinking - I have about 20 questions written down relating to nimitta, concepts and thinking, and I was just waiting for the opportunity to arise to start asking them ;-) I'll start another thread about it in a few days. Best wishes pt =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #100398 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding these questions (one at a time): c: "What makes something or/and someone FORBIDEN?" Scott: Gradual Sayings The Book of Nines v (5) The Powers: "...And what, monks, is the power of wisdom? Such conditions as are bad and reckoned so; such as are good and reckoned so; such as are blameworthy and are reckoned so; such as are dark and reckoned so; such as are bright and reckoned so; such as are not to be sought after and reckoned so; such as are to be sought after and reckoned so; such as are not truly Ariyan and reckoned so; such as are truly Ariyan and reckoned so - all these things are clearly seen and by wisdom examined. And this, monks, is called the power of wisdom..." Scott: "Things and people." "Wholesome and unwholesome." Do you see these two categories as being the same? If things and people are merely construed, then wholesome and unwholesome must apply to a given moment of consciousness and its mental constituents. Am I FORBIDDEN to write to you? If so, then: MY GOD! WHAT HAVE I DONE? (Talking Heads) (And the GESTAPO can just get in line and file a GRIEVANCE like everyone else.) Sincerely, Scott. #100399 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Remastered! scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding question number two: c: "IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT?" Scott: Death and Craving, of course. Why? Death is easy 'THAT A KNIFE CUT YOUR THROAT' = Death. Craving takes a bit of a stretch. 'IS IT WRONG TO NOT DESIRE' = Is it right to desire. The double negative. And desire is craving. And craving leads to more of the same. So, is it wrong to wish to avoid death? Or, is it right to desire death? Gradual Sayings The Book of Fives ix (69) Disgust "Monks, these five things; when made become, made an increase in lead to complete disgust, dispassion, ending, calm, knowledge, enlightenment and to Nibbaana. What five? Monks, herein a monk abides in perceiving the foulness of the body; is conscious of the cloying of food; is conscious of distaste as to the world; perceives impermanence in all compounded things; and the thought of death is by him inwardly and well established..." Scott: Neither seeking nor fleeing from death. I still seem to want to live and would rather that the DETRACTORS and NAYSAYERS all go to hell (or at least just leave me alone) so maybe we're in the SAME BOAT. Sincerely, Scott.