#101000 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Dear Ken O, The Buddha taught us to go to the very root of defilements. Suppressing by jhaana is temporary. It is insight developed until enlightenment that eradicates. Thanks for reminding us. It takes so long until defilements are uprooted, the roots are so deep. It is best to begin now. Nina. Op 30-sep-2009, om 16:18 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > Sense pleasures are blinding > they cause much suffering. > They injure gravely. > I shall look for the root of sensuousness > I shall cut down lust with its bonds. #101001 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 7:37 am Subject: jhaana-condition nilovg Dear pt, I looked in the files section, useful posts (U.P.) under the j, jhaana-condition, and found an old letter which may be of interest to you. I cannot discuss much these days, since I am busy until next week, you will understand. I refer here to the cetasikas as ministers who assist the king (or general?), a simile used by an old Burmese friend Htoo. Nina. (Co and subco to Khandha Vibhanga). I am inclined to think that citta and cetasika are so closely associated that they cooperate in producing rupas. Those ministers are ever active. I looked at U Narada, Conditional Relations: p. 26: except 14 types of citta (five pairs of sense-cognitions and 4 arupa jhana vipaka-cittas, rebirth-consciousness in the five khandha planes and death- consciousness of arahat), the other citttas can produce rupa. p. 65, jhana-condition: without it one cannot: <1. shoot birds and animals, 2, what and whose form it is, 3. to take one straight step forward correctly, for, if at the beginning the foot was pointed eastwards, it would point southwards in the middle and westwards at the end of the step. Or else, while taking the step forward, the mind would take another object and forget about the step altogether.4. To pronounce one word correctly. This shows how swiftly the mind is distracted and changed...> What pointed reminders for everyday life, even when walking or pronouncing words!!! > Nina. #101002 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 8:13 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! abhidhammika Hello Jon, Nina, Freawaru, Howard, Lukas, Robert K, Alex, Chris F, Sarah, Mike N How have you been? Jon asked: "I'd be interested to know the Pali term(s) translated by you as "formal samatha methods" and "(formal?) vipassana methods". The Pali term for the formal samatha metods is Kamma.t.thaanaani, while the Pali term for formal vipassanaa methods is vipassanaa. Jon also asked: "I'd be interested to know the Pali term(s) translated here as "three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa" and "three formal practices for nirvana"." The Pali term for the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa is tisso sikkhaa. The Pali term for the three formal practices for nirvana is also tisso sikkhaa. Those translations are what can be called contextual translations, which may usually come from Pali scholars who have read Pali texts extensively. There you have it, Jon. You are, of course, welcome to offer alternative translations for those Pali terms. Cheers! Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: Hi Suan (100864) "Kamma.t.thaanaani sabbaani, cariyaabhiaa vipassanaa; visuddhimagge panidam, yasmaa sabbam pakaasitam. Tasmaa tam aggahetvaana, sakalaayapi tantiyaa; padaanukkamato eva, karissaamatthava.n.nanam." Ganthaarambhakathaa, A.t.thasaalinii. "All the formal samatha methods, character analysis, supernormal knowledge, and vipassanaa methods, since all this practice matter had been expounded in Visuddhimaggo, without taking it up (here again in A.t.thasaalinii), all the terms (in Dhammasanganii) will I make the exposition of only as they appear one after another." =============== Thanks for this translation. I'd be interested to know the Pali term(s) translated by you as "formal samatha methods" and "(formal?) vipassana methods". =============== The following comes from the commentary on this term in A.t.thasaalinii. `Tisso pana sikkhaa atthi nu kho natthii'ti kankhantopi, `tisso sikkhaa sikkhitapaccayena aanisamso atthi nu kho natthii'ti kankhantopi sikkhaaya kankhati naama.' `One who doubts whether or not there are three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa and one who doubts whether or not there is any advantage by the cause of undertaking the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa represent doubting the three formal practices for nirvana.' Section 1008, Nikkhepaka.n.do, A.t.thasaalinii. =============== I'd be interested to know the Pali term(s) translated here as "three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa" and "three formal practices for nirvana". Jon #101003 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 8:31 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! abhidhammika Hello Scott, Jon, Nina, Freawaru, Howard, Lukas, Robert K, Alex, Chris F, Sarah, Mike N Scott asked: "Could you please give the word or phrase in Paa.li which you translate as 'formal' and 'formally?' Otherwise, this will stand as only an idiosyncratic, however popular, translatory opinion. Thanks for you kind and scholarly consideration." Please read my earlier reply to Jon who has asked more or less the same question. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw #101004 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 8:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) jonoabb Hi MikeNZ (100944) > MikeNZ: Yes, I understand that. Though of course, as you imply, the tradition says that where ancient commentary contradicts the canonical vinaya/sutta/abhidhamma then it should be rejected. And where newer writings, such as the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, or modern teachers, contradict ancient commentary or vinaya/sutta/abhidhamma they should be rejected. So it is important to know which layer we are talking about. > =============== As far as I know, the Theravada tradition -- i.e., the orthodox Theravada school of old -- does not contemplate there being any inconsistencies between the commentaries that form part of that tradition and the canonical vinaya/sutta/Abhidhamma. Did you see the comments by IB Horner on this subject quoted in a recent post of Sarah's? =============== It's clear the style of later work (such as Commentary or the Visuddhimagga) is quite different from the Canon, so it would be extremely confusing to tell people that it is words that the Buddha actually spoke (except for actual quotes). And of course Venerable Buddhaghosa is quite clear about this. And so should we be. =============== I was under the impression that "Buddha-word" could include, in addition to the words actually spoken by the Buddha, explanations given by the commentators that are accepted by the ancients as being correct. But Howard and you have got me thinking now, so I won't pursue it further for now. Jon #101005 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 8:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? jonoabb Hi pt (100960) > Yes, I was considering this aspect for a while, and I don't think I can agree with you at the moment. > > My reasoning is based on the premise that "inducing the listener to 'lose' themselves in the story being presented" equals to inducing greed, hate and delusion kilesas of the level of pariyutthana in others. So, I pose the question - is there anything that doesn't "induce" greed, hate and delusion of the pariyutthana level in those who are not devoid of greed, hate and delusion to begin with? > =============== I take your point about inducing greed etc in others; it's part of normal commercial life ;-)) But I think the problem for the actor is that he is inducing wrong view or something approaching it. The audience is being asked to 'suspend disbelief'. =============== > In particular, I'm wondering what if my words and deeds somehow induce greed, hate and delusion in others of the level of vitikkama, i.e. they go on to commit an akusala kamma patha, as in when encouraging (but not ordering) others to kill, steal, etc? =============== As I recall, encouraging the breach of a precept by another is itself a breach of the precept (as is rejoicing in another's breach of a precept). =============== > So, there are several levels that are now open for consideration (focussing on the extreme case of killing here): > - is the kamma of personally committing a killing equal to kamma of ordering others to kill? > - is the kamma of ordering a killing equal to kamma of encouraging others to kill? > - is the kamma of encouraging others to kill equal when the encouraged person kills compared to the case when he doesn't kill? etc =============== I would say all are themselves kammapatha (assuming we mean the same thing by encouraging and ordering another). But I don't think I've seen anything about which is the greater. Would such info be of any use? Jon #101006 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 9:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) jonoabb Hi Howard (100975) > What I WILL agree to, becase I recall this, is that there is at least > one sutta in which the Buddha said something along the lines that any > teaching (not necessarily even Buddhist) that is conducive to calm and > relinquishment is to be considered Dhamma. But I do not believe the terminology > "Buddha word" was used there. > =============== I think what you have in mind here is the passage from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (I will check later if I have time). There are also things said by other monks that have been explicitly endorsed or adopted by the Buddha. These would I think be Buddha-word in the strictest sense. But as regards the commentaries, you could be right. I may have mis-recalled what I read, so I'd like to withdraw that particular remark while I think about it further ;-)) Jon #101007 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 9:33 am Subject: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas hantun1 Dear Nina, Chew and Sarah, I tried to read the Burmese co. on Anusaya Yamaka. Uppatti.t.thaanavaara: (1) Kaamaraagaanusaya (i) In terms of puggala, it arises in puthujjana, sotaapanna, and sakadaagaami. But not in anaagaami and arahant. (ii) In terms of abandoning, it is not yet abandoned in sotaapatti-magga.t.thaana and sakadaagaami-magga.t.thaana. But already abandoned in anaagaami-magga.t.thaana and arahatta-magga.t.thaana. (iii) In terms of ".thaana" or bhuumi, it arises only in (11) kaama realms or kaama-dhaatu. (iv) In terms of vedanaa, it arises with (19) kaama-sukha-vedanaa, and (32) kaama-upekkhaa-vedanaa. (v) For "anuseti", it is considered not in terms of puggala, but in terms of ".thaana". So the question is "kattha kaamaraagaanusayo anuseti", and the answer is "kaama dhatuyaa dviisu vedanaasu ettha kaamaraagaanusayo anuseti". (2) Pa.tighaanusaya (i) In terms of puggala, it arises in puthujjana, sotaapanna, and sakadaagaami. But not in anaagaami and arahant. (ii) In terms of vedanaa, it arises with (2) domanassa vedanaa and (1) dukkha vedanaa. In this case, it arises by way of aramma.na and sahajaata for domanassa vedanaa; and only by way of aramma.na for dukkha vedanaa. However, when vedanaa arises, sahajaata dhammas also arise. So there arise dosa-muula-dve-cittuppaada, dukkha-sahagataa-kaayavi~n~naa.na-cittuppaada, sabhaava-vipariita-ani.t.thaa-ruupas by way of aramma.na and by way of sahajaata. (iii) For "anuseti", it is the same as in kaamaraagaanusaya. Therefore, the question is "kattha pa.tighaanusayo anuseti", and the answer is "dukkhaaya vedanaaya ettha pa.tighaanusayo anuseti". (3) Avijjaanusaya (i) In terms of puggala, the same as in maanaanusaya, i.e., it arises in puthujjana, sotaapanna, sakadaagaami, and anaagaami; but not in arahant. (ii) In terms of ".thaana" or bhuumi, the same as in di.t.thaanusaya, i.e., it arises in all three dhaatus by way of aramma.na. (iii) In terms of vedanaa, it arises with the three vedanaa of akusala-dvaadasa, by way of aramma.na and by way of sahajaata. Han: The above is only for a part of paragraph 2 of the Pali text. That is why I say that the Burmese co is very difficult. ==================== Han: Under Pajahanavaara, anuloma puggala (starting with paragraph 132 of Pali text), I can give only the Notes: Here, four magga.t.thaana puggala are mentioned. (i) Sotaapanna abandons completely di.t.thaanusaya and vicikicchaanusaya, and diminishes other kilesas to avoid being reborn in four apaayas. (ii) Sakadaagaami diminishes kaamaraagaanusaya and pa.tighaanusaya, but not abandons them completely. (iii) Anaagaami abandons completely kaamaraagaanusaya and pa.tighaanusaya, and diminishes other kilesas. (iv) Arahant abandons completely maanaanusaya, bhavaraagaanusaya, avijjaanusaya, and also eradicates all other kilesas. The rest of the Burmese co is very difficult for me. Respectfully, Han #101008 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 9:37 am Subject: Re: urination and sati..Enter The Abhidhammika 4! abhidhammika Hello Robert K, Jon, Nina, Freawaru, Howard, Lukas, Alex, Chris F, Sarah, Mike N How have you been? Robert wrote and asked: In that same sutta there is a part where it says that the Bhikkhu is aware while urinating and defecating. I wonder if there is an implication of doing formal defacation or urination, or that these be done slower than normal? Yes, of course, Robert. However, defacation and urination are involuntary biological phenomena so they should not be interfered by slowing their activity down. By the way, Robert, I meant to reply to you when you previously wrote to me about Satisampajaanapabbam. I thought I would have adequate time to offer you fresh translations of Pali textual citations regarding the issue you raised like now, so that you can upload my reply to your Abhidhamma forum. But, I have been undertaking intensive samatha meditation using inhalation and exhalation (aanaapaanassati) this year. And, there seems to be no sign of let-up as progress has been being consistently made. The consequence of this is, the more successful your samatha, the less your speech activity (vaciisankhaaro) that requires indulgence in discursive thinking on multiple fronts (khittavitakko). Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw #101009 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 10:44 am Subject: Re: urination and sati..Enter The Abhidhammika 4! rjkjp1 dear Suan Look forward to the other reply if you have time in the future. About the awareness when defecating and urinating- perhaps you could spell out any particular formal action/method that the bhikkhu should do . Why- considering that these two bodily actions don't need to be slowed down for awareness to arise- would one need to slow down walking for awareness to occur? best robert #101010 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 11:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sprlrt Hi Sarah, > I think this would be an example of akusala dhammas being pakatpanissaya paccaya for kusala ones. > ..... > S: Possibly. Pakatuupanissaya paccaya is certainly the broadest condition - anything can condition cittas and cetasikas by this condition. Certainly, object condition. > ..... A hard to please customer, or not an easy article to sell. :-) Btw, wouldn't the object of that citta be nimitta? The shadow of a (single) reality, rather than the paramattha dhamma itself, since that has already fallen away, along with all its sampayutta/associated nama-dhammas, in a previous process of akusala cittas, i.e. it's past khandha, as dead as a dodo, and yet pakatpanissaya paccaya (the past reality itself, not its present nimitta, which is rammana paccaya and which, in its turn, would be pakatpanissaya paccaya, a single condition, of the several required, for the arising of citta & cetasikas dhammas, for (future) kusala -> kusala patterns, instead than for kusala -> kusala ones). All very natural/pakati... Alberto #101011 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 11:26 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Regarding: S: "Please read my earlier reply to Jon who has asked more or less the same question." Scott: Which reply was, in part: S: "...The Pali term for the three formal practices for nirvana is also tisso sikkhaa. Those translations are what can be called contextual translations, which may usually come from Pali scholars who have read Pali texts extensively." Scott: Do you consider a 'contextual translation' to differ from an 'opinion?' If so, can you suggest a way for discerning amongst the different opinions? Can you also please offer your translation for the term 'bhaavanaa?' I ask this since the term seems to have come to be formally translated as 'meditation' in this modern era. Can you please discuss why you translate the term in the way that you do - what is the justification? You also note: S: "...the Pali term for formal vipassanaa methods is vipassanaa." Scott: Do you consider that the above is a very good example also, of a 'contextual translation?' Here you would read into each phrase containing the word 'vipassanaa' the adjective 'formal' while there is no such word in the text itself. Can you provide a justification for adding the adjective 'formal' to the definition of vipassanaa? Such a justification ought best to be from the texts if possible. If you would, since you are adding something, could you suggest the way in which you define the English word 'formal?' Here, from the Oxford Dictionary, are some suggestions: "formal: adjective 1 done in accordance with rules of convention or etiquette. 2 officially recognized: a formal complaint. 3 of or concerned with outward form rather than content..." Scott: Do any of these suit? Sincerely, Scott. #101012 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 6. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/1/2009 3:27:16 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 30-sep-2009, om 15:11 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > At the time of the Buddha, only monks had the leisure for such > practice. It is different now, especially in the "developed > countries" and > especially for retirees. ------- N: No rule at all. It depends on the individual's accumulations. For the monks there is a reason: the monk should not be attached to company and chattering. This is according to the Vinaya. In fact his style of life is like the life of an arahat. We cannot lead the life of an arahat as laypeople. Best is to develop understanding naturally of all that occurs in daily life, defilements included. If we think that there are rules it may easily lead to clinging to rites and rituals, wrong practice. -------------------------------------------- We humans are quite capable of clinging to almost anything and of treating almost anything superstitiously. But certainly there are rules, for example rules of proper moral comportment. ------------------------------------------ Is there any obstacle to be aware now, even when reading or writing? I like to highlight Sarah's post just now: <"Thus, life goes on from moment to moment, until death. Life is only one moment of experiencing an object and then it is gone, forever." Usually, we're lost in concepts about the past or future and forget all about awareness and understanding of what is experienced now. It's a good reminder for us all.... We can see how the development of right understanding leads to less regret, less concern about the past or future and more contentment and calm at this moment.> Lost in concepts, true? 'I' am going to a quiet room, and who is thinking this? -------------------------------------------- Studying Dhamma? I'm going to a quiet room to study, and who is thinking this? (Nina, we can eat, dance, and party in a noisy place. We cannot properly study there or meditate there. The Buddha didn't urge physical seclusion whimsically.) -------------------------------------------- Thinking of the future. Why have regret about all the akusala that arises in a day. It shows what has been accumulated for aeons. How could we get rid of these within a short time, by just seeking for tranquil situations. ---------------------------------------------- Who is looking for a "quick fix"? Different cultivation practices have different suitable conditions. ---------------------------------------------- These are situations, and it does not help thinking of them, or being after them. The object of satipa.t.thaana is not situations, concepts, but whetever is real at this moment, whether or not we are pleased with it. Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101013 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 10/1/2009 5:01:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (100975) > What I WILL agree to, becase I recall this, is that there is at least > one sutta in which the Buddha said something along the lines that any > teaching (not necessarily even Buddhist) that is conducive to calm and > relinquishment is to be considered Dhamma. But I do not believe the terminology > "Buddha word" was used there. > =============== I think what you have in mind here is the passage from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta (I will check later if I have time). There are also things said by other monks that have been explicitly endorsed or adopted by the Buddha. These would I think be Buddha-word in the strictest sense. But as regards the commentaries, you could be right. I may have mis-recalled what I read, so I'd like to withdraw that particular remark while I think about it further ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- Final conclusions aside, I applaud you, Jon! :-) ------------------------------------------------ Jon ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101014 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 2:14 pm Subject: Re: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas nilovg Dear Han, I recognize the Pali text here, but I have to study this again. Arising: it does not actually arise, but condiitons the arising of akusala citta. Kaama-dhaatu: is this not rather plane of citta, not plane of existence? This has to be studied further. As to feeling, I found this difficult. Sometimes it is translated: it adheres to feeling, and B.B.: underlies feeling. When thinking of anusayas as underlying tendencies this may be better. That is why I have to reread the whole passage at ease. Nina. Op 1-okt-2009, om 11:33 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > (iii) In terms of ".thaana" or bhuumi, it arises only in (11) kaama > realms or kaama-dhaatu. > (iv) In terms of vedanaa, it arises with (19) kaama-sukha-vedanaa, > and (32) kaama-upekkhaa-vedanaa. > (v) For "anuseti", it is considered not in terms of puggala, but in > terms of ".thaana". So the question is "kattha kaamaraagaanusayo > anuseti", and the answer is "kaama dhatuyaa dviisu vedanaasu ettha > kaamaraagaanusayo anuseti". #101015 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 3:33 pm Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! abhidhammika Hello Scott You wrote and asked: "If you would, since you are adding something, could you suggest the way in which you define the English word 'formal?' Here, from the Oxford Dictionary, are some suggestions: "formal: adjective 1 done in accordance with rules of convention or etiquette. 2 officially recognized: a formal complaint. 3 of or concerned with outward form rather than content..." Scott: Do any of these suit?" Thanks, Scott, for taking trouble to offer Oxford Dictionary definitions. Definitions 1 and 2 seem to fit. Now, I am going to ask you a few questions. Scott, what is your formal education at the university? If I remember correctly, I think you had studied psychoanlysis. If so, can you say that you have formal training in psychoanalysis? If yes, what were involved in undertaking formal training in psychoanalysis? Are there any differences between a formally trained psychoanalyst and someone who have studied Sigmund Freud's books on psychoanalysis out of curiosity? If there are, what might they be? Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #101016 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 3:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Analytical study of 5 Khandhas, 12 bases & 18 elements truth_aerator Hello Sarah, and all, > sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex & all, > ... > >18 Elements (dhatu): Above 12 bases + 6 consciousness. > .... > S: We can't put it like that. The 12 bases consist of the 18 elements. There is no consciousness apart from those included in manayatana. [see 'Ayatanas' in U.P.] > .... Thank you for that point. Though I don't think that I made an error. Both ayatana & 18 dhatu have dhamma-ayatana/dhatu, but 18 dhatu have more specific analysis of 6 consciousness (which fit in dhamma ayatana). > >Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral eye-sensation (cakkhu-vedana) is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and eye-consciousness element. > ... > S: You mean the vedana is dhamma-dhatu surely? Not eye-consciousness element. > ... > S: Same again. any vedana is dhamma-dhatu. It is not ear-consciousness. > Same for all the others. > ... First, by sensation I mean vedana. I don't like word "feeling" in most cases. 2nd) The suttas do talk that 6 organs can experience sukha/dukkha sensations. That is why there is such classification of 18 sensations (6x3) and so on. I know that some say that eye can experience only neutral sensations, or something like that. Suttas say otherwise. But even if we say that only body & mind can experience pleasant/unpleasant/neutral - why isn't eye/ear/nose/tongue BODY or related to mind? They are! And because of this they can experience 3 types of sensations that body/mind can. With metta, Alex #101017 From: A T Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 4:07 pm Subject: On Primary Elements truth_aerator Hello Nina, Sarah, and all, It is interesting to me that whenever the Buddha talked about 4 Primary Elements, He didn't define them as abstract mental qualities only: Earth Element: Is not literal earth but [abstract] qualities of hardness, roughness, heaviness, softness, smoothness, lightness. Water Element: Is not literal water but [abstract] qualities of flowing, trickling, oozing, cohesion. Fire Element: Is not literal Fire but [abstract] qualities of digestion, metabolism, temperature (hot or cold). Air Element: Is not literal air but [abstract] qualities of moving, blowing, pressure, or cooling. 4 elements were defined literally and not as abstract qualities percieved conceptually only through the mind. Abstract qualities seem to me to be too mental, conceptual, abstract, clean and sanitized while the 4 elements that the Buddha was talking about were real, physical, dirty, dusgusting and unclean. That can lead to nibbida, viraga, vimutti. "And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. Which is the internal earth property? Whatever internal, within oneself, is hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internal, within oneself, is hard, solid, & sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property and the external earth property are simply earth property. And what is the liquid property? The liquid property may be either internal or external. What is the internal liquid property? Whatever internal, belonging to oneself, is liquid, watery, & sustained: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine, or whatever else internal, within oneself, is liquid, watery, & sustained: This is called the internal liquid property. Now both the internal liquid property and the external liquid property are simply liquid property. "And what is the wind property? The wind property may be either internal or external. What is the internal wind property? Whatever internal, belonging to oneself, is wind, windy, & sustained: up-going winds, down-going winds, winds in the stomach, winds in the intestines, winds that course through the body, in-&-out breathing, or whatever else internal, within oneself, is wind, windy, & sustained: This is called the internal wind property. Now both the internal wind property and the external wind property are simply wind property. "http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html With metta, Alex #101018 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 4:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 5. ptaus1 Dear Nina and Freawaru, It seems there was a mixup - in the post below (#100979) you are commenting on issues that Freawaru raised in post #100970, not me. I believe that your post #101001 about jhana-condition was also supposed to be addressed to her, not me. Of course, no need to apologise as I have found your posts useful as well, and hopefully Freawaru will take note of these posts as answers to her questions and not overlook them because they were addressed to me. Also, Freawaru, since I have this opportunity, as I also came here after first spending a lot of time on e-sangha forum - here are a few things that I found useful to note in order to make the most of my experience here: 1. Many people here follow the dry insight approach, so they won't be particularly interested in jhana, iddhis and even meditation, etc. 2. If there's a wish to discuss these things, then it's useful to know the vocabulary - in particular abdhidhamma and the commentaries, as many here have been studying Theravada Buddhism for a long time and they like to be very precise with the terms they use. 3. Often the terms used here, though they seem common, are in fact much more precise and often have a very specific meaning, so it's indispensable to know it, otherwise confusion arises out of using the same term which means different things to different people. 3. Reading Nina's books ADL and Cetasikas was indispensable. 4. Useful Posts section (in Files) has a lot of topics and is usually the first point of reference whenever I come up with a new question. Glad to see you around here. Best wishes pt (pt1 on e-sangha) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear pt, > Op 30-sep-2009, om 13:07 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > > > Could you please explain what you mean by "unwordly mysticsm". > > > #101019 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 4:36 pm Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Regarding: S: "Thanks, Scott, for taking trouble to offer Oxford Dictionary definitions. Definitions 1 and 2 seem to fit. Scott: These are, again: "...1 done in accordance with rules of convention or etiquette. 2 officially recognized: a formal complaint." S: "Scott, what is your formal education at the university?" Scott: Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. Is this relevant? S: "If I remember correctly, I think you had studied psychoanlysis. If so, can you say that you have formal training in psychoanalysis?" Scott: Not at an Institute, therefore not 'formally.' S: "If yes, what were involved in undertaking formal training in psychoanalysis?" Scott: It's still yes, although not 'formally.' How so? I've read and re-read the literature that is a requisite for all the 'formal' psychoanalytic training - this includes Freud and a rather extensive 'post-Freudian' literature. More importantly for the endeavour of which we speak, I've engaged in seven and a half years of personal psychoanalytic treatment at four sessions per week. It is considered that this personal analysis is the crux of any psychoanalytic 'training.' And then there are the years of supervised psychotherapy. S: "Are there any differences between a formally trained psychoanalyst and someone who have studied Sigmund Freud's books on psychoanalysis out of curiosity? If there are, what might they be?" Scott: I'll allow for the rhetorical aspect of your question. The answer is yes, of course, as you know. The question must be reworded somewhat, Suan. Here you appear to differentiate 'formal training' from 'book learning,' which is a bit simplistic. Psychoanalytic or psychoanalytic psychotherapy training consists of both 'book learning,' personal analysis, and years of supervised, and then 'self/patient-supervised' practice. The crucial distinction here, as far as I'm concerned, is that between a 'technical' competence and actual competence. The former does not subsume the latter. Without the latter, nothing of consequence can occur. Like the difference between artists and technicians, there are certain ineffable qualities, incapable of being taught, that are necessary for the adequate 'practice' of psychoanalytic psychotherapy. These contribute to the actual competence of a practitioner. If these are absent then one will get something that might look like psychoanalytic psychotherapy from the outside but will be devoid of effect. Someone can act 'like a psychoanalytic psychotherapist' while not achieving anything of the sort. Neither definition of 'formal' you have accepted is satifactory when placed up against the ineffable, artistic, and essential aspects necessary for psychoanalytic psychotherapy to be effective. In the day-to-day process of psychoanalytic psychotherapy one is given to having to wait for things to unfold naturally and the unfolding of the psyche is not subject to manipulation by technical means. It is in the experience that one finds the 'change,' not in the technique. This is never shown to be more true than in the training of psychotherapy. It is difficult to learn even at a technical level. Technique alone never carries any treatment of any worth. If the ineffable factors are not present, they cannot be taught. I find that the practice of psychoanalytic psychotherapy shows the characteristic of anatta very well. This accords with Dhamma. I'll look forward to your turning away from analogies back to Dhamma. I find that the same arguments apply, hence my questioning your use of the adjective 'formal.' Sincerely, Scott. #101020 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 6:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mix up in The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Dear pt, thank you for your kind letter. Yes, I noticed later on that there was a mix up. But this is now a condition for you to explain several things so concisely and clearly to freawaru, and I do hope the stay with dsg will be of use to both of you. Yes, the terms used can be confusing to some people. To us the task to explain more clearly. Like the term formal, I think that the misunderstanding about this are unnecessary. The term composedly we find in sutta translations and this could point to sati and pa~n~naa, sati sampaja~n~na. But the terms used depend on the individual's inclination. With appreciation, Nina. Op 1-okt-2009, om 18:13 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > It seems there was a mixup - in the post below (#100979) you are > commenting on issues that Freawaru raised in post #100970, not me. > I believe that your post #101001 about jhana-condition was also > supposed to be addressed to her, not me. #101021 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 7:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 6. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 1-okt-2009, om 14:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > We humans are quite capable of clinging to almost anything and of > treating almost anything superstitiously. But certainly there are > rules, for > example rules of proper moral comportment. > ------------------------------------------ N: Agreed, in this sense. I am thinking of rules in another sense: setting rules for practice. This enhances the feeling of self, doesn't it? > -------------------------------------------- > H: Studying Dhamma? I'm going to a quiet room to study, and who is > thinking this? (Nina, we can eat, dance, and party in a noisy > place. We cannot > properly study there or meditate there. The Buddha didn't urge > physical > seclusion whimsically.) > -------------------------------------------- > N: Book study is difficult, but study of daily life: everywhere. When someone thinks that he has to label each nama or rupa that appears, he needs quiet, but that is not satipatthana. There are two kinds of realities appearing all the time: the reality that experiences something, and the reality that does not experience anything. They appear no matter what we are doing and 'we' do not have to do anything, just understand these characteristics that 'show themselves'. In the ultimate sense there is no dancing, no noisy place. Hardness appears, sound appears, and gradually we can become familiar with different characteristics. We can learn that nobody makes them arise, they are anattaa, arising because of conditions. Perhaps this is the most important point: to learn this more and more. If we think of place, truly, it is a wrong beginning, not leading anywhere. But keep on insisting, keep on asking, these are good points. > ---------------------------------------------- > H: Who is looking for a "quick fix"? Different cultivation > practices have > different suitable conditions. > ---------------------------------------------- > N: I wrote also for people who think of a quick fix, and they > exist. It seems a general misunderstanding. ----------- Nina. #101022 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 7:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Primary Elements nilovg Dear Alex, Op 1-okt-2009, om 18:07 heeft A T het volgende geschreven: > Earth Element: Is not literal earth but [abstract] qualities of > hardness, > roughness, heaviness, softness, smoothness, lightness. ------- N: My time is limited at the moment, but I just take out one point. The word abstract may have different meanings for different people. I would say: Earth points to a charactreistic that can be directly experienced now, without having to think of it: hardness or softness. I do not think it is abstract, it is to be experienced in daily life. Nina. #101023 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 7:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] personal news and Dhamma. nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 28-sep-2009, om 11:59 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I'm sure he inspires many people with his approach and his > thoughtful memoirs. ------ N: On the same day as the T.V. (getting up before four in the morning) we had the most wonderful party at the Department of Foreign Affairs. We and many others thought of it as a family party. I am very bad at standing for along time but then I remembered a simple advice of Kh Sujin in Egypt: I complained that we had so many parties, and she said: just think of the others' happiness, do not think of yourself and then you can manage it. You can help the others to enjoy the party. Yes, I could stand for a long time at a stretch. I thought of her advice. People may think: this is too simple, anyone could say this. No, it goes more deeply. When we learn (I say learn) and begin to understand a little that self does not exist, it leads to 'belittling' oneself to some degree, but not yet enough! With Kh Sujin we see that it conditions more metta, always thinking of others' welfare. There is a great deal of discussion on siila, good and kind speech, for example. Mettaa, thinking of others ensures kusala siila. We do not have to think: now I must practise siila. It all can come naturally. Enough preaching for today :-)) Nina. #101024 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 8:28 pm Subject: Re: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: I recognize the Pali text here, but I have to study this again. Arising: it does not actually arise, but condiitons the arising of akusala citta. Kaama-dhaatu: is this not rather plane of citta, not plane of existence? This has to be studied further. As to feeling, I found this difficult. Sometimes it is translated: it adheres to feeling, and B.B.: underlies feeling. When thinking of anusayas as underlying tendencies this may be better. That is why I have to reread the whole passage at ease. Han: I very much appreciate your kind efforts to help me. Please take your own time. I do not wish it to be a burden on you. Please do it only when you have time. Respectfully, Han #101025 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Oct 1, 2009 10:43 pm Subject: Re: On Primary Elements truth_aerator Dear Nina, Sarah and all, >Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > The word abstract may have different meanings for different people. > I would say: Earth points to a charactreistic that can be directly > experienced now, without having to think of it: hardness or >softness. > I do not think it is abstract, it is to be experienced in daily life. > Nina. I believe that the Buddha meant literal hard & solid things when referred to Earth Element. "The earth property can be either internal or external. Which is the internal earth property? Whatever internal, within oneself, is hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or whatever else internal, within oneself, is hard, solid, & sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property and the external earth property are simply earth property." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html While it is true that above objects are hard, harsh, solid, smooth, etc - The suttas do seem to imply literal primary Elements as the meaning of 4 primary elements. With metta, Alex #101026 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 2:32 am Subject: Rejoicing Joy! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Mutual Joy cures all vicious Envy and Jealousy! The dear companion can be the proximate cause for Mutual Joy, where one rejoices in another being's success... One thus rejoicing in other's fortune is called a 'boon companion', for he is constantly glad: He laughs first and speaks afterwards! So he should be the first to be pervaded with gladness. Or on seeing a dear person being happy, cheerful and glad, mutual joy can be aroused thus: 'See this being is indeed glad! How good, how excellent!' Just as one would be glad at seeing a dear and beloved person very happy, exactly so does one pervade all other beings in all directions with mutual joy... Rejoicing mutual joy can also be aroused by remembering other's happiness in the past and recollecting the elated joy aspect in this way: 'In the past he had great wealth, a great following and he was always glad'. Or mutual joy can be aroused by apprehending the future glad aspect of his in this way: 'In the future he will again enjoy similar success and will go about in gold palanquins, on the backs of elephants or on horseback'. Having thus aroused mutual joy regarding a dear person, one can then direct the very same feeling successively towards a neutral one, and gradually towards any hostile person. Vbh 274, Vism I 316 Comments: Mutual joy causes Contentment! No mutual joy thus means Discontentment! Therefore: If being generally dissatisfied, then be happy over other's gains. Secondly: Mutual joy causes all envy & jealousy to evaporate into equanimity! Mutual Joy (Mudita), which cures all envy & jealousy, is a divine state! <..> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #101027 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Analytical study of 5 Khandhas, 12 bases & 18 elements sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Thx for responding. What a treat to discuss dhatus and ayatanas with you:-) ... --- On Thu, 1/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >a: 18 Elements (dhatu): Above 12 bases + 6 consciousness. > .... > S: We can't put it like that. The 12 bases consist of the 18 elements. There is no consciousness apart from those included in manayatana. [see 'Ayatanas' in U.P.] > .... A:>Thank you for that point. Though I don't think that I made an error. >Both ayatana & 18 dhatu have dhamma-ayatana/ dhatu, but 18 dhatu have more specific analysis of 6 consciousness (which fit in dhamma ayatana). ... S: Let's be clear on this: 1. Manayatana includes ALL cittas, all consciousness, so there are no other kinds of consciousness outside manayatana and therefore the 12 bases. 2. Dhammayatana includes all cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana. There are no cittas, no kinds of consciousnes "which fit in dhamma ayatana". 3. When defining the elements by way of 18 dhatu, there are several dhatus referring to cittas, i.e.: cakkhu-vinnana dhatu, sota-vinnana, ghana-v, jivha-v, kaya-v, mano-dhatu (inc. panca-dvaravajjana citta, 2 sampaticchana cittas, and mano-vinnana dhatu (inc. all other cittas). These are collectively referred to as vinnana-dhatu. Pls let me know if this is not clear or if you still disagree. I know it's a tricky area. How do you see the present moment practice with regard to dhatus and ayatanas? .... > >Pleasant, unpleasant or neutral eye-sensation (cakkhu-vedana) is mental reality that is sensation aggregate, cognizable base and eye-consciousness element. > ... > S: You mean the vedana is dhamma-dhatu surely? Not eye-consciousness element. > ... > S: Same again. any vedana is dhamma-dhatu. It is not ear-consciousness. > Same for all the others. > ... First, by sensation I mean vedana. I don't like word "feeling" in most cases. ... S: OK, let's just stick to vedana. The problem with "sensation" is that people usually associate it with what is experienced through the body-sense, rather than mental feelings, wouldn't you agree? ... >2nd) The suttas do talk that 6 organs can experience sukha/dukkha sensations. That is why there is such classification of 18 sensations (6x3) and so on. ... S: Let's be clear that: 1. All vedana, whether pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, whether bodily or mental, are all cetasikas, mental factors and therefore all included in dhammayatana or dhamma dhatu. 2.I don't think the suttas say that the sense-bases, such as eye-sense, experience anything. They are rupas. Rupas cannot experience objects. 3. Sukha/dukkha refer to bodily pleasant and unpleasant feelings. This means that they arise with the citta, body-consciousness which experiences tangible object, i.e temperature, solidity or motion. 4. Vedana are classified in many different ways. For example, sometimes they are classified as sixfold, referring to the vedana which arise through the 6 doors. Sometimes threefold, referring to pleasant, unpleasant and neutral, sometimes 18, referring to the sixfold, past, future and present. However they are classified, they are always referring to the (mental) cetasika which accompanies every single citta. ... >I know that some say that eye can experience only neutral sensations, or something like that. Suttas say otherwise. ... S: The texts say nothing like that. The eye cannot experience anything. It is eye consciousness which experiences visible object. This citta is always accompanied by neutral feeling. I've never seen a sutta say what you suggest above;-) ... >But even if we say that only body & mind can experience pleasant/unpleasant /neutral ... S: You've got this mixed up, Alex. See above and let me know if it's still not clear. I think these are important points and I'm glad you've raised them. It's impossible to understand namas and rupas appearing now if we have a confused idea about them. ... >- why isn't eye/ear/nose/ tongue BODY or related to mind? They are! And because of this they can experience 3 types of sensations that body/mind can. ... S: Sorry, but this is flawed.... How can eye-sense experience anything? Or if you mean seeing consciousness, how can it experience anything other than visible object? I look forward to further discussion on these points. Metta Sarah ======= #101028 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 10:10 am Subject: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting szmicio Dear Sarah, friends When do you meet with KS? I wanna rise same questions to her. Best wishes Lukas #101029 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 10:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Fri, 2/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: >N:> The word abstract may have different meanings for different people. > I would say: Earth points to a charactreistic that can be directly > experienced now, without having to think of it: hardness or >softness. > I do not think it is abstract, it is to be experienced in daily life. > Nina. A:>I believe that the Buddha meant literal hard & solid things when referred to Earth Element. ... S: So referring to your list of 18 elements, are you suggesting that "solid things" is included in phottabba-dhatu (element of tangible objects) which consists of earth element which is experienced as hardness/softness, fire element, experienced as heat/cold and wind element, experienced as motion/pressure? In other words, are you suggesting that what is touched is not hardness/softness but "solid things"? Isn't this exactly the kind of wrong view the Mulapariyaya Sutta points to in the ignorant, mad worldlings? The Buddha uses conventional examples, such as the hardness of the nails, but we need to understand what is said in the light of our understanding of elements. Ken O gave a good quote before: >K: The Dispeller of Delusion <<389. Furthermore "element" is a term for the soulless (nijjiva). And accordingly to the Blesed One taught the elements for the purpose of abolishing the perception of soul in [passages such as:] "This man, bhikkhus, has six elements" (M iii 239) etc. .... >> If we still have the same old ideas of solid things and people that we always had after studying the texts or contemplating on elements, what's the use of it? Metta Sarah ======= #101030 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 10:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Fri, 2/10/09, Lukas wrote: >When do you meet with KS? I wanna rise same questions to her. ... S: Go ahead! We'll be in Bkk 12th-18th Oct. It's easier if you send your qus before we leave so that we can print them out. Just send them here to the list and others may like to discuss them in the meantime. Meanwhile I'm wondering what has happened to your and Connie's study corner in the Abhi.... Metta Sarah ===== #101031 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! szmicio Dear Suan, Can you introduce yourself? That would be very nice if u say something about yourself. > Lukas, please do not forget my questions regarding the Right View in my original reply to you. > > For your convenience, I qouted them below. > > _________________________________ > > Lukas also wrote: > > "The point is that the samma-ditthi is first." > > What do you mean by the term 'samaa-di.t.thi'? > > 1. Did you mean the right view at the maggaaa.na level? L: You mean eight supramundane cittas, that experience nibbana? That's actually the right understanding of Eightfold Path. And yes only sotapana experience The Path or the understanding of Eightfold Path. Formaly I know only this classification. I didnt find yet the classification that's saying that samma-ditthi is something lesser than that. so all nana's even, are not samma ditthi, right? Because Buddha refered only to Magganana, when he say about samma-ditthi. But if you read the sutta with description of 8-fold Path you will see that samma-ditthi is understanding of 4 Noble Truths. And also the 4 Noble Truths has different levels. So we can say that when there is ~nana, or ~nana that knows ruupa as ruupa , nama as nama , than that's samma ditthi. the panna of samatha is not of the level of samma-ditthi. Only the citas with panna of vipassana are path. The samatha level is not the level of the path. but it's also included in Dhamma. without samma-ditthi first, nothing is samma. siila is not samma, sati and concentration is also not samma. no one is safe without right understanding. ------------- > So, when you said: `The point is that the samma-ditthi is first' before you can practice siila, you must be saying that one must first go to a Theravada monk for the precepts to be dispensed to you. L: when there is siila first that's good. there is siila with right understanding and siila without right understanding. But that's conditioned. Just right understanding from the begining. It helps for sure. Best wishes Lukas #101032 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 11:04 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Regarding: Me: "Do you consider that the above is a very good example also, of a 'contextual translation?' Here you would read into each phrase containing the word 'vipassanaa' the adjective 'formal' while there is no such word in the text itself. Can you provide a justification for adding the adjective 'formal' to the definition of vipassanaa? Such a justification ought best to be from the texts if possible." Scott: I was wondering if you'd consider a response to these points. Also, in a post on Rob K's forum, from a few years back, you noted: Suan: "I notice Brahamali's article regarding Jhaana controversy on Samatha forum. The problem with those who insist on samatha jhaanas as prerequisite for vipassanaa seems to be their failure to understand the reason behind the practice of samatha to the level of jhaana attainment. I am saying the above as one who would indulge in proper samatha practice in pursuit of jhaana accomplishment in the first available opportunity that is not possible in my current western lifestyle for the time being. To persue Samatha Jhaana in a western society like Australia, you either need to be rich enough to overcome any concerns related to livelihood or be brave enough to be able to survive as an outcast, perhaps living in the desert far away from western civilization. As I am neither of both, realistic samatha practice proper is out of my reach as things stand now. The most sensible approach an average person can take in a western society is, fortunately, also the most important practice of the Buddha's teachings, which is vipassanaa practice. Vipassanaa practice as taught in Satipa.t.thaana Suttam by the Buddha does not require us to attain samatha jhaanas whose main goals are superhuman powers in terms of Iddhis, which are worldly and dependent on conditions. In support of vipassanaa's capability to ensure attainment of awakening for nibbana, the Buddha taught us Gha.tikaara Suttam in Majjhimapannaasa, in Majjhimanikaaya. In Gha.tikaara Suttam, the Buddha listed Gha.tikaara's attributes in Section 288 that are all to do with noble faith, noble behaviors, noble understanding and noble awakening as a non-returner. As the Buddha dedicated one whole middle-length Suttam to Gha.tikaara the Pot-maker, he could have listed any samatha jhaana among Gha.tikaara's attributes if he had them. But, as none of the samatha jhaanas were mentioned as Gha.tikaara's attainments by the Buddha, we can know for sure that this noble pot-maker did not have any samatha jhaanas." http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=97 Scott: Perhaps you could discuss the notion of 'formal' vipassanaa from the vantage point of these comments, maybe shedding some light on the evolution of your thinking. Were you then referring to 'formal' vipassanaa? Thanks in advance for your scholarly attention. Sincerely, Scott. #101033 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 10:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, I quoted some passages on pa.thavi dhaatu before from the Mulapariyaaya Sutta and commentaries which you might like to consider: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73020 >S: Firstly, what is meant by hardness? It is the characteristic of earth element (pa.thavi dhaatu), which along with temperature (tejo dhatu) and motion (vayo dhatu) can be experienced through the body-sense. These are the tangible objects. MN 1, The Mulapariyaaya Sutta (Bodhi transl with its commentary and subcommentaries, published by BPS under the title 'The Discourse on the Root of Existence') "Herein, bhikkhus, an uninstructed worldling, who is without regard for the ariyans, unskilled in the Dhamma of the ariyans, undisciplined in the Dhamma of the ariyans, who is without regard for the good men, unskilled in the Dhamma of the good men, undisciplined in the Dhamma of the good men - he perceives earth as earth (pa.thavi.m pa.thavito sa~njaanaati). Having perceived earth as earth(pa.thavi.m pa.thavito sa~n~natvaa), he conceives (himself as) earth (pa.thavi.m ma~n~nati); he conceives (himself) in earth (pa.thaviyaa ma~n~nati); he conceives (himself apart) from earth (pa.thavito ma~n~nati); he conceives 'earth is mine'(pa.thavi.m me'ti ma~n~nati); he delights in earth(pa.thavi.m abhinandati). What is the reason? Because it has not been fully understood by him (apari~n~naata.m tassaa), I declare." .... S: So here the text is also referring to pa.thavi. Although the tangible object is experienced through the body-sense for ignorant worldlings or ariyans alike, the difference is that the worldling wrongly takes such objects for 'atta', rather than rightly understanding them as transient elements not worth delighting in. The arahat 'directly knows earth as earth'. How? Only by knowing its characteristic of hardness/softness/roughness when it appears. When we touch the keyboard now as we read, what is experienced through the body-sense? Surely it is hardness, distinct from visible object or sound or other rupas. .... S:The commentary adds a lot more detail. I think you'll find it interesting! ..... " 'He perceives earth as earth (pathavi.m pathavito sa~njaanaati)' Cy: Having thus described the worldling, the Master goes on to show his manner of conceiving the bases such as earth, etc., which is the generative source of all things included in personality. Therein, earth is fourfold: characteristic earth (lakkha.napathavii), composite earth (sasambhaarapathavii), objectified earth (aaramma.napathavii), and earth as conventional designation (sammutipathavi). (1) In the passage: 'What, friends, is the internal earth element? That which is internal, belonging to oneself, hard, solid" (M.28/I, 185) - this is characteristic earth. (2) In the passage: "If he should dig the earth, or cause the earth to be dug" (Vin.iv, 33) - this is composite earth. The twenty parts of the body beginning with head-hairs, etc., and the external elements such as iron and copper are also included in composite earth. For composite earth consists of earth together with its accompanying material dhammas, such as colour, etc. (3) "Someone perceives the earth-kasina" (D.33/iii, 268) - here the objectified earth is the earth-kasina, also called the earth-sign (nimittapathavii). (4) "Earth as conventional designation": somebody who attains jhaana with the earth-kasina as basis, and is reborn in the world of the gods, gains the name 'earth deity' after his means of arriving at such a state. "All these meanings of the word 'earth' are relevant to the present context. For whatsoever instance among these four kinds of earth the worldling perceives as earth, he perceives (with the notion) 'it is earth'; he perceives as a segment of earth (pathaviibhaagena); he perceives through a perversion of perception, seizing upon the conventional expression (and thinking) 'it is earth' (lokavohaara.m gahetvaa sa~n~naavipallaasena sa~njaanaati). Or, without releasing such a segment of earth, he perceives it as a being (satta) or as belonging to a being. Why does he perceive it in this way? He seizes upon anything he can in whatever way he can. Or else, the reason is that he has no regard for the ariyans, etc.; or, as the Exalted One will say later on, 'because it has not been fully understood by him.'...... "Cy.: Having perceived earth thus with a perverted perception, the worldling afterwards conceives it, i.e. construes or discriminates it, through the strengthened proliferating tendencies of craving, conceit, and views, which are here called 'conceivings'. This accords with the statement: "Concepts due to proliferation are grounded upon perception"(Sn.v.874). He apprehends it in diverse ways contrary (to reality); hence it is said: 'He conceives earth.' " .... S: Lots more detail is given. In brief, at the moment of touch, only tangible object is experienced. Hardness or pathavi has a particular characteristic which can be known. We may think we touch a computer or person, but this is because of 'conceivings' or 'proliferations'.< ***** S: I'd like to add one more extract from the commentary which I think is relevant to our discussions: "Objection: If the conventional expression is applied, what is the fault? Don't ariyans also make use of the conventional expression, as when they say: 'This, venerable sir, is the great earth,' etc.? "Reply: It is not the mere employment of the expression that is intended here, but the wrong adherence which occurs through the conventional expression. Thus he says: 'he perceives through a perversion of perception.' This is the meaning: He perceives it as beautiful, etc*., through a perverted perception springing from unwise reflection. By this, weak conceiving through craving, conceit, and views is shown." *"The 'etc.' implies the other three perverted marks: permanent (nicca), pleasurable (sukkha), and self (attaa)." Hope you find this interesting. Metta Sarah ======== #101034 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 2:07 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha, when he was sitting under the Bodhi-tree, realized the four noble Truths: the Truth of suffering, the Truth of the origin of suffering, the Truth of the ceasing of suffering, and the Truth of the Path leading to the ceasing of suffering. As to the Truth of suffering, this is not merely suffering caused by bodily and mental pain. The Truth of suffering pertains to all phenomena of life which are impermanent. They arise and then fall away immediately, and thus they cannot be our refuge. Suffering in this sense is the unsatisfactoriness inherent in all phenomena of life. Only when the arising and falling away of physical phenomena and mental phenomena can be directly experienced, can one begin to grasp the Truth of suffering. The Truth of the origin of suffering is craving. Craving in this sense is not only strong attachment or greed, it includes many shades and degrees of attachment. There is craving for pleasant colours, sounds, odours, flavours and tangible objects, for all that can be experienced through the senses. There is craving for the continuation of life. It is craving which conditions rebirth in new existences, again and again. Craving pushes beings on in the cycle of life, the continuation of rebirth and death. There is not only this present life, there were also past lives and there will be future lives. I will deal with this subject later on. So long as there are ignorance and clinging there are conditions for being in the cycle of birth and death. Through wisdom, understanding, there can be liberation from it. When there are no more conditions for rebirth, there is the end of old age, sickness and death, the end of all suffering. ****** Nina. #101035 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 2:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! nilovg Dear Scott and Suan, I find your dialogue about psychotherapy fascinating. Here you have common ground. I did not know that the preparation was so long, and it must have been painful. And I am impressed by Scott's conclusion that it shows the characteristic of anatta. Looking forward to continuation of this dialogue. Nina. Op 1-okt-2009, om 18:36 heeft scottduncan2 het volgende geschreven: > I find that the practice of psychoanalytic psychotherapy shows the > characteristic of anatta very well. This accords with Dhamma. I'll > look forward to your turning away from analogies back to Dhamma. I > find that the same arguments apply, hence my questioning your use > of the adjective 'formal.' #101036 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 1:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Dear pt, #100892 --- On Sun, 27/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >pt: ....A further question on sankhara nimitta: all 5 khandas work at the same time at any given moment of citta, however, only a nimitta of one khanda can be the object of cittas in the first mind-door process that follows the sense-door process. So, I'm trying to understand how does that particular khanda nimitta happen, and not the other 4? .... S: Let's say visible object was the object of the (eye) sense door process. Whilst the visible object was being experienced in the eye door process, there were (up to) 17 cittas experiencing the rupa, each one accompanied by sanna, vedana and other sankhara khandha cetasikas. In the subsequent mind door process, after numerous bhavanga cittas (also accompanied by a number of cetasikas, experiencing their particular object), the nimitta of the same visible object is experienced. It cannot be any other object. ... >Let's take an example of a visual object - when the eye sense-door process happens, the object of cittas in that process is color in the rupa kalapa. ... S: Yes, it arises in a kalapa, but the object is just visible object/colour. ... >1. Once the sense-door process has finished - the first mind-door process of cittas to follow has (shankara) nimitta of color as the object, right? ... S: Right ... >2. Sankhara nimitta of colour is nimitta of which khanda? Rupa or sanna? ... S: Rupa. It is colour which is experienced and colour is always rupa, a sankhara dhamma. .... >3.That nimitta is classified as which of the 6 possible mental objects (sensitive matter, subtle matter, citta, cetasika, pannatti and nibbana)? .... S: I sensitive matter. It is referred to in the texts as the reality, rupa. In fact there are some 'grey' areas, which is why we should forget the term 'nimitta' in this context if it takes us away from the understanding of such realities when they appear:-) Metta Sarah ========== #101037 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 2:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Analytical study of 5 Khandhas, 12 bases & 18 elements chewsadhu Hi all, I read this at http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/mahasi-anat/anat02.htm and would like to share with you all. A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN ABHIDHAMMA AND SUTTAS According to the teachings of the Abhidhamma, there is neither pleasant nor unpleasant feeling at the moment of seeing, hearing, smelling, or tasting, just equanimous feeling. But in the Suttas there are discourses which describe how all these feelings, pleasant, unpleasant and neutral, arise at all the sense doors, and there are discourses exhorting us to contemplate these feelings at the moment of seeing and hearing so as to comprehend their true nature. The Sub-Commentary of the Visuddhimagga explains how pleasant, unpleasant and neutral feelings become evident at the moment of seeing and hearing in these words: "Although it is said that eye consciousness is accompanied by equanimity, the resultant effect of an unwholesome act is unpleasant in nature, it cannot be pleasant. Likewise, although it is stated that the resultant effect of a wholesome act is equanimity, it is pleasant in nature. All moral acts bear good, pleasant results." This explanation is most appropriate and can be verified through practical experience. When a beautiful object is sighted, the feeling of pleasantness is evident even as the object is being seen. When a terrifying, repulsive, or hateful object is sighted, the feeling of horror or aversion is quite evident, too, even while seeing the object. These experiences are more pronounced in the case of hearing than in the case of seeing. A sweet, pleasant sound produces a sweet, pleasant effect; an extremely loud sound may inflict unbearable pain on the hearer. The resultant effect is distinct also in smelling: a pleasant sensation arises in the nose as soon as a fragrant aroma is smelt, whereas a foul, putrid smell may cause immediate nausea, headache or other ills. A whiff of a poisonous odor may even cause death. The most pronounced effect may be experienced in the act of eating. While a tasty, delicious dish produces a delightful sensation on the tongue, the bitter taste of some medicines is very unpleasant and disagreeable. A poisonous substance will cause intense suffering and may even result in death. "Thus, although it is stated that eye-consciousness is accompanied by indifference, the unwholesome resultant equanimity which experiences disagreeable objects is in the nature of suffering, and the wholesome resultant equanimity which experiences agreeable objects has the nature of happiness." These comments from the Sub-Commentary are most appropriate. We find therefore the Suttas mention that all three types of feeling may be excited at the moment of sensory awareness. Alternatively, as it is possible for any of the three feelings to arise at the moment of javana, impulsion consciousness, during the eye-door thought process (cakkhudvaara vithii), the Suttas mention all three types of feeling being excited during sensory awareness. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #101038 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 3:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Nina, all, I understand the Buddha's teaching and believe that there ARE external & internal objects such as hair, skin, bones, urine, excrement and so on. Sure that they have are percieved also as rough, harsh, solid, soft, etc etc. "what is touched is not hardness/softness but "solid things" Hardness & softness is a description of the feeling that "solid thing" has when it touches the body. Don't mistake the two. The teaching that reduces external objects to mere feelings, sensations, cognitions, concepts, seems to border idealism of some sort. That, IMHO, reduces the nibbida impact on a person. There is less disgust at unsanitary and disgusting filth if we consider it to be mere perception. With metta, Alex #101039 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 3:25 pm Subject: Re: On Primary Elements at MN1 truth_aerator Dear Sarah, All, RE: MN1 I believe that what MN1 talks about ignorant worldling a) Taking external object as Self or Self property. I was NOT arguing that external/interal elements are Self. They are Anatta. b) Taking grammatical inflexions too literally and presuposing a Self and Self's relation to them. I was NOT arguing that external/interal elements are Self. They are Anatta and language is just a convention. c) Speculation about various things, external elements, etc. The fact is that the suttas such as MN28 & MN62 make it clear what exists. May you all be happy for as long as possible! Alex #101040 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 3:28 pm Subject: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas chewsadhu Dear Han, I still haven't studied Anusaya Yamaka yet. From your notes, I can see there are the 54 Kaamaavacaracitta. At (1) Kaamaraagaanusaya, there are: (iv) In terms of vedanaa, it arises with (19) kaama-sukha-vedanaa, and (32) kaama-upekkhaa-vedanaa. and at (2) Pa.tighaanusaya, there are: (ii) In terms of vedanaa, it arises with (2) domanassa vedanaa and (1) dukkha vedanaa. It seems like to show that the (19) kaama-sukha-vedanaa, and (32) kaama-upekkhaa-vedanaa are the conditions for Kaamaraagaanusaya. And the (2) domanassa vedanaa and (1) dukkha vedanaa are the conditions for Pa.tighaanusaya. If we separate the bhuumi into three Kaama, Ruupa, and Aruupa, then Kaamaraagaanusaya and Pa.tighaanusaya only able to arise in Kaama bhuumi; and Avijjaanusaya arises in all three bhuumi. With respect, Chew #101041 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 3:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta chewsadhu Dear Sarah, The visible object, as a ruupa, last for 17 thought moments, which is only in the sense-door process. The next series of mind-door process, which takes the previous visible object as its object, which is also called the nimitta of the same visible object. As you said, it is also a ruupa. So, does it also last for 17 thought moments when it starts to arise in the mind-door process as the nimitta of the previous visible object? (I guess not.) Since it is not the present visible object, and it is only the previous visible object, can we say this nimitta is only a concept? The past object that arose in the past and ceased at there, it doesn't last until the present moment. The present object that arises in the present and ceases at there, it doesn't sustain until the future. With respect, Chew #101042 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: personal news and Dhamma. sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- On Sun, 27/9/09, kenhowardau wrote: >>N: What about yourself? In how far does it help you in your daily life > to realize all the time that there are only naama and ruupa? Say, > when you are surfing, do you? ------ K:>It definitely helps, although I can still be an irritable old curmudgeon. :-) >I often have to share the surf with selfish, inconsiderate people whose oafish behaviour makes me angry. At the time, I seem to think my anger is a good, or appropriate, reaction. But eventually the Dhamma helps me to overcome that wrong view and I remember that anger (dosa) is a conditioned dhamma and always akusala. >Or, sometimes I might think, "What is actually happening here? Visible object is appearing at the eye door, . . audible object at the ear door . . There are no really no surfers of either kind - inconsiderate or considerate. There's not even me!" :-) ... S: Very nicely and humourously said:-) Look forward to more Dhamma Tales from the old curmudgeon:-). ...and enjoy the surfing while it lasts. Jon and I are now indefininitely grounded from it due to back and hip problems, so we'll have to be sofa surfers and enjoy your exploits and good reminders. How about starting a Curmudgeon's Surfer diary here, reminding us along the way that really there's no Curmudgeon, no Surfer and no diary:-) Look forward to the first installment...Really! Metta Sarah ====== #101043 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Hi Jon, Thanks for your reply. Jon: > But I think the problem for the actor is that he is inducing wrong view or something approaching it. The audience is being asked to 'suspend disbelief'. pt: I'm not sure, to be honest. For example, does seeing a movie require any more suspension of disbelief than getting a second mortgage or going to the doctor's? I mean, in ultimate terms, these three options are just illusions that we fall for (out of greed) believing they will make our life better and happier. But in the ultimate sense (of individual cittas, or many lifetimes upon lifetimes) this is very far from the truth, as neither of the three is vipassana that offers a lasting solution. So, all three would count as wrong view or something approaching it, so I don't see why would there be any difference between the actions of an actor, a mortgage broker or a doctor - i.e. why should they be responsible for my illusions about them? Jon: > As I recall, encouraging the breach of a precept by another is itself a breach of the precept (as is rejoicing in another's breach of a precept). ... > I would say all are themselves kammapatha (assuming we mean the same thing by encouraging and ordering another). But I don't think I've seen anything about which is the greater. Would such info be of any use? pt: I think it goes down to what constitutes "encouraging others to commit an akusala kamma patha", and what are the levels of it. To take the example of a theater play: At the gross level - for example, a play is directed against someone and urges direct action - like a political play that directly calls for killing/hurting certain people. This case is almost equal to ordering to commit a kamma patha, so no questions here. At the medium level - a play about people of questionable morals for example - although no direct action is encouraged against any real person, the audience might get the impression that lying, slandering, and other questionable actions of the characters are in fact acceptable courses of action in real life. I don't know about this case - I don't think it encourages a kamma patha in others directly, but it comes close. At the weak level - for example a Disney style fairytale about people of mostly good morals, that evokes nothing more than mild levels of lobha/dosa in the audience. No kamma pathas encouraged here directly. But, what if this little extra accumulation of lobha/dosa was exactly what was needed for a certain audience member to commit an akusala kamma patha when he goes home after the show? I think this weak level is what interests me most, and whether any responsibility for that action of the audience member would rest with the actor? Best wishes pt #101044 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 4:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply (100915), it really helped to make a bit of sense out of this topic. > S: I don't think so. Sometimes some kamma patha factors are there, but not 'full' kamma patha - such as when intending to kill an insect, but not doing so. In the examples you give, I'd say it's mostly just common lobha, such as arises throughout the day. Of course, there can also be kusala, such as daana - the gift of sound and so on. pt: Could you perhaps say a little more about "the gift of sound"? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. > S: I think they're related. As I'm sure you know, the texts refer to coarse, medium and subtle kilesa (defilements). Vitikkama kilesa are the coarse defilements as are involved in akusala kamma patha, such as killing, stealing and lying. pariyutthaana kilesa are the medium defilements which oftena arise during the day, as in the examples you give. They don't have the strength or intensity to lead to akusala kamma patha. Anusaya are the latent tendencies which lie dormant with each citta until eradicated. The Buddha stressed the "seeing of the danger in the slightest fault", because any kind of akusala accumulates and lies dormant, ready to manifest again. If the accumulation becomes strong enough, then it leads to akusala kamma patha. pt: Thanks for reminding me about the three levels - I've only vaguely understood it before you mentioned it. I've now read through all the posts in UP on anusaya and kilesas, so I'll ask a few questions about it in reply to Nina's comment on anusaya. Best wishes pt #101045 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for your reply. > > Jon: > > But I think the problem for the actor is that he is inducing wrong view or something approaching it. The audience is being asked to 'suspend disbelief'. > > pt: > I'm not sure, to be honest. For example, does seeing a movie require any more suspension of disbelief than getting a second mortgage or going to the doctor's? I mean, in ultimate terms, these three options are just illusions that we fall for (out of greed) believing they will make our life better and happier. <... cut ...> I think this weak level is what interests me most, and whether any responsibility for that action of the audience member would rest with the actor? > > Best wishes > pt > Hello PT, Jon, Sarah, KenH, all, PT, Very interesting observations! What someone or something does may influence one to have more lust (ex: porno movies, adult toys, suggestive images, jokes, objects, clothing etc), or hatred (movies, racist jokes, seeing someone's evil behaviour, etc) . This is why physical seclusion for some people with wisdom, and at some point in their development, may be very helpful and downright necessary for further progress. No wonder the Buddha praised renunciation and also said this: "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html I wish happiness to all, and for as long as possible! Alex #101046 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Analytical study of 5 Khandhas, 12 bases & 18 elements nilovg Dear Chew, it is no problem, the suttas do not give all the details of the processes. Seeing is accompanied by indifferent feeling, no matter whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant, but very soon after seeing there are javanacittas that can be accompanied by pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. This depends on the citta the feeling accompanies. Cittas succeed one another so fast that it seems that pleasant feeling, for example, can accompany seeing, but this is not so. I do not find it contradictory that the suttas do not give all the details. Mahasi refers to the tiika to the Visuddhimagga, and when I have time I look for the exact text, I studied the Pali Tiika to the Khandhavagga. Nowhere have I found contradictions when studying the feeling khandha. I take abreak until next week. Nina. Op 2-okt-2009, om 16:55 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > According to the teachings of the Abhidhamma, there is neither > pleasant nor unpleasant feeling at the moment of seeing, hearing, > smelling, or tasting, just equanimous feeling. But in the Suttas > there are discourses which describe how all these feelings, > pleasant, unpleasant and neutral, arise at all the sense doors, and > there are discourses exhorting us to contemplate these feelings at > the moment of seeing and hearing so as to comprehend their true > nature. #101047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 6:17 pm Subject: Re: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas nilovg Dear Chew, This is helpful. It seems these feelings are the conditions for the anusaya to become active and cause the arising of akusala citta. Anusaya itself is latent and therefore it could not arise. The three bhuumis, I gree, they are not planes of existence but planes of citta. Nina. Op 2-okt-2009, om 17:28 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > It seems like to show that the (19) kaama-sukha-vedanaa, and (32) > kaama-upekkhaa-vedanaa are the conditions for Kaamaraagaanusaya. #101048 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 6:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: personal news and Dhamma. nilovg Dear Ken H and Sarah, Op 2-okt-2009, om 15:13 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > How about starting a Curmudgeon's Surfer diary here, reminding us > along the way that really there's no Curmudgeon, no Surfer and no > diary:-) > > Look forward to the first installment...Really! ------ N: If you do not mind to share your diary with others, I would like to read it. Do not think it is unimportant, it is all daily life with Dhamma. Nina. #101049 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 2, 2009 9:07 pm Subject: Re: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas hantun1 Dear Chew and Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comments. They are very useful. There is only one point that is not clear. Chew: If we separate the bhuumi into three Kaama, Ruupa, and Aruupa, then Kaamaraagaanusaya and Pa.tighaanusaya only able to arise in Kaama bhuumi; and Avijjaanusaya arises in all three bhuumi. Nina The three bhuumis, I agree, they are not planes of existence but planes of citta. Han: In the Pali Text, there are five main chapters in Anusaya Yamaka. (1) Uppatti.t.thaanavaara (2) Mahaavaara (3) Pajahanavaara (4) Pari~n~naavaara (5) Pahiinavaara Except in (1) Uppatti.t.thaanavaara, the remaining chapters are subdivided into (i) Anuloma puggala (ii) Anuloma okaasa (iii) Anuloma puggalokaasa and (i) Pa.tiloma puggala (ii) Pa.tiloma okaasa (iii) Pa.tiloma puggalokaasa In (ii) Anuloma okaasa and in (ii) Pa.tiloma okaasa, three bhuumis or dhaatus are mentioned: kaama bhuumi or kaama dhaatu, ruupa bhuumi or ruupa dhaatu, and aruupa bhuumi or aruupa dhaatu. Therefore, my understanding is the three bhuumis are the planes of existence. But, of course, I can be wrong. Respectfully, Han #101050 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 2:08 am Subject: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas chewsadhu Dear Han and Nina, I remember in Sayadaw U Silananda talks on Visuddhimagga, the translator translates kaama dhaatu as the element of sense-desires, Sayadaw disagreed. Sayadaw suggested to use the world of sense-desires (kaamaavacara loka). Sayadaw said the word dhaatu there does not mean element, merely means loka. In Yamaka the minor-section on puggala is concerning of the 12 types of beings. What dhamma is possible to arise in which beings. For the minor-section on okaasa is concerning of the 31 planes of existence. What dhamma is possible to arise in which planes of existence. For the minor-section on puggalokaasa is concerning of the beings and planes of existence. What dhamma is possible to arise in which beings at which planes of existence. Nina, what is the different between planes of existence and planes of citta? Can you please define the meaning of "planes of citta"? What is the paal.i word for "planes of citta"? Is it also mentioned in paal.i text? With respect, Chew #101051 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 2:55 am Subject: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas chewsadhu Dear Nina, === C: Nina, what is the different between planes of existence and planes of citta? Can you please define the meaning of "planes of citta"? What is the paal.i word for "planes of citta"? Is it also mentioned in paal.i text? === I guess you mean kaamavacara citta, ruupaavacara citta, and aruupaavacara citta, is it? In Yamaka, the minor-section on okaasa is concerning of the 31 planes of existence. What dhamma is possible to arise in which planes of existence. It is not the avacara citta. Because ruupaavacara citta and aruupaavacara citta are also possible to arise in Kaamaloka. In Khandha Yamaka, it says ruupakkhandha is not arising in aruupa plane. If we understand the "plane" as "plane of citta", then it conflicts in the above statement. Because when one practices aruupa jhana in human realm, the aruupaavacara citta produces cittajja ruupa. But in aruupa realm, no ruupa is produced. So, it is referring to planes of existence. With respect, Chew #101052 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 5:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Dear Sarah and Nina, Thanks for your replies. I'm still a bit confused about the third point: > >2. Sankhara nimitta of colour is nimitta of which khanda? Rupa or sanna? > ... > S: Rupa. It is colour which is experienced and colour is always rupa, a sankhara dhamma. > .... > >3.That nimitta is classified as which of the 6 possible mental objects (sensitive matter, subtle matter, citta, cetasika, pannatti and nibbana)? > .... > S: I sensitive matter. It is referred to in the texts as the reality, rupa. In fact there are some 'grey' areas, which is why we should forget the term 'nimitta' in this context if it takes us away from the understanding of such realities when they appear:-) I'm confused here - how can the mental object in the first mind-door process in this case be sensitive matter? Isn't sensitive matter a different kind of rupa than color? Wouldn't that require another sense-door process to happen with sensitive matter as the object, as I think Chew is wondering as well? My thinking was that sankhara nimitta is classified as "concept" out of the possible six mental objects - in a recent post Alberto mentioned that this kind of mental object includes both concepts (as pannatti) as well as shadows of realities (as shankara nimittas), so I immediately thought that this must be the object classification I was looking for. But you don't seem to agree? Best wishes pt #101053 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 6:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Glad to continue this discussion. old pt: > > Agreed, so for "focussing, concentration, samatha, etc" to be kusala, there'd have to be panna at the moment. As to what kind of panna that would be, more below. > S: Just to clarify - concentration and samatha arise with every sobhana citta. So even at moments of dana or sila when there is no panna arising, there is still wholesome concentration and samatha (calm). pt: Yes, I wasn't precise enough here. You're right in the above, but if we take "focussing, concentration, samatha, etc" to refer to samatha bhavana as in jhana development, then there'd have to be panna. old pt: > > That's probably the very first mistake anyone makes when attempting "meditation" for the first time (of first few hundred times). But hopefully, at some point there comes a realisation that this doesn't really work. And then usually there's a natural settling on whatever object (i.e. without lobha or dosa), and then for the first time there's a little bit of understanding of the difference between kusala and akusala, which gradually becomes more sharp. > S: I think that any right understanding arises because of accumulations for such and in spite of the wrong views associated with intentions to focus on particular objects in order to develop kusala. pt: I think this was very well put - that right understanding arises in spite of wrong views. That's exactly how it seems in practice. When begining a samatha bhavana sitting (or lying down in my case), first there are a lot akusala moments, and only a flash of kusala here and there. But after some time the kusala moments start to increase for some reason. old pt: > > ...So for someone who doesn't know much about texts, this basic experience of panna seeing the kusala/akusala difference is what f.m. is all about and they will defend f.m. on their lives - in effect they are standing up for panna, not for a particular method, even though they might not realize it. > S: I think this sounds like wishful thinking:-) pt: Might be :) > S: When people defend f.m. with their lives, it never sounds like standing up for panna to me:-)) There is no understanding of namas and rupas as anatta. Without that, it's bound to be micha ditthi motivating the f.m. as I see it. pt: Well, I think that most do recognise nama-rupa instinctively in practice to some degree, but can't really express it in abdhidhamma terms. It's often described as a general understanding of anatta - there's a realisation that "this is not me" - i.e. "trying too hard, trying to achieve jhana" etc - these are recognised as unwholesome mental actions in meditation practice. Of course, it's not as clear-cut, but there's a more or less vague understanding that certain mental occurences are not useful (akusala) and if one identifies with them, it just leads to more problems - hence, anatta becomes understood to a degree - if there's no identification with these unwholesome mental states (like trying too hard) then meditation actually gets better (more kusala). So, I'd say that panna in this case does understand anatta to a degree and recognises some namas as kusala/akusala. Of course, it'd be great if meditators could study more abdhidhamma and be able to explain all this in proper vocabulary, but most just don't. So, yes, I might be engaging in wishful thinking here. Best wishes pt #101054 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Dear Nina, > N: I would just like to add one point: The anusayas do not arise with > the citta, but they are conditions for the arising of akusala citta. > The anusayas are akusala qualities not yet eradicated. Thanks for this comment. It seemed very interesting so I tried reading up on it in UP and ACM. Here are a few things that I still don't understand: 1. In ACM, anusayas are reduced to six cetasikas: "Both sensual lust and attachmnt to existence are modes of greed; the others are each distinct cetasikas. Thus altogether six cetasikas function as anusayas."(page 268, par 9, BB edition) Why does Bhikkhu Bodhi call them "cetasikas" if they never arise with the citta as you say? 2. Considering conditionality - there are conditioning dhammas, conditioned dhammas and conditioning forces (the 24 conditions as I understand). Anusaya to me sound much closer to a conditioning force. Like kamma and vipaka conditions - I was struggling to understand how does kamma work and where it is stored, until I read about kamma and vipaka conditions - since these are forces, there's no need for kamma to be stored anywhere physically, but is simply transferred from citta to citta as conditioning forces of kamma and vipaka conditions. So, anusaya also seem to me very much like a conditioning force - are there any particular conditions out of the 24 that correspond with anusayas? 3. A few times in UP it was said that anusayas are accumulated even during kusala cittas. I don't understand how is this possible and how it happens? Does "accumulated" mean they get stronger, or simply transfered from one citta to another? 4. Regarding the anusaya of attachment to becoming (existence) - does it only refer to desiring heavenly rebirth, or it also refers to wanting to be a rich man, to be successful, to have a better job, to be a better man, etc - i.e. to be different than what one is at the moment? Thanks. No need to hurry with response since you are on holidays now. Best wishes pt #101055 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 7:23 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! abhidhammika Hello Scott, Nina, Robert K, Lukas, Jon, Freawaru, Howard, Alex, Chris F, Sarah, Mike N How have you been? Scott wrote: "Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. Is this relevant?" Yes, Scott, it is relevant in the context of the term `formal' I have in mind. As far as I am concerned, you are a formally trained clinical psychologist, specialising in the practice of psychoanalytic psychotherapy. You wrote: "Here you appear to differentiate 'formal training' from 'book learning,' which is a bit simplistic." No, Scott. In the context of formal education at this stage, I did not differentiate 'formal training' from 'book learning.' For example, Jon is a legal eagle, so his formal education at the university is law, perhaps specialising in the field of public administration and legislation. Jon may correct and fill in more details. We can imagine that Jon, as a formally trained lawyer, must have been constantly undertaking book learning. Scott wrote: "1. Psychoanalytic or psychoanalytic psychotherapy training consists of both 'book learning,' personal analysis, and years of supervised, and then 'self/patient-supervised' practice 2. The crucial distinction here, as far as I'm concerned, is that between a 'technical' competence and actual competence. The former does not subsume the latter. Without the latter, nothing of consequence can occur 3. Like the difference between artists and technicians, there are certain ineffable qualities, incapable of being taught, that are necessary for the adequate 'practice' of psychoanalytic psychotherapy. These contribute to the actual competence of a practitioner 4. In the day-to-day process of psychoanalytic psychotherapy one is given to having to wait for things to unfold naturally and the unfolding of the psyche is not subject to manipulation by technical means. It is in the experience that one finds the 'change,' not in the technique." With the above 4 statements, you were here laying out the gruelling requirements for becoming a formally trained and qualified psychoanalyst. Now, as you suggested, let's us go back to Dhamma and have a look at why I differentiate formal samatha practice from informal samatha practice, for example. Like someone undertaking formal education need to choose a field of discipline and commit oneself to mastery of all the prescribed aspects of that discipline until completion of the course and attainment of the degree, a Buddhist practitioner undertaking formal samatha practice need to choose a suitable meditation object and commit oneself to meeting all the conditions necessary for consistent progress of the development of concentration by sticking with, and focusing on, this object until reaching Jhaana as the goal or its vicinity. Any practice that requires us to commit ourselves to fulfil all the conditions necessary for its expected outcome to arise and progress in a meaningful, tangible way is what I call a formal practice. Thus, I use the adjective `formal' to imply a method or a practice or a course of action carried out with commitment by fulfilling all the necessary conditions until reaching the desired goal . Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #101056 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sprlrt Hi pt (Nina, Sarah, Chew...) Here is a simile which might help sorting nimitta out a bit, The sense-door process would be the sender end in a fax communication session, and it would send a page, one of the seven visaya rpas (visible... tangible rpa) impinging on the corresponding pasada rpas (eye... body rpa). As soon as the page/visaya rpa is sent it self-destroy itself, it falls away. The recipient would be the mind-door, bhavanga citta, via saa, and it would receive the fac-simile (as rpa nimitta, the shadow of a reality) of the original page which would be just as good as the original, which is no longer in existence. After the first page is received (by the first mind-door process after a sense door one, with bhavanga cittas interposing), in which the received page corresponds to the page actually sent, many other pages (dhamma rammanas, objects of mind-door processes) would pile up one after the other, like spam, and, because of kilesa, defilements, each extra page would add something to the original, according to one's own accumulations; these pages/processes would also be nimitta, shadows, but not of a reality, since they differ from the original, hence concepts/pannatti. Alberto #101057 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: always satipatthaana. sarahprocter... Hi Sukin, --- On Thu, 1/10/09, sukinderpal wrote: >> " 'A progressive talk (aanupubbikatha. m)': a talk (that proceeds) successively such that (talk) on morality is immediately preceded by that on almsgiving, (talk) on heaven is immediately preceded by that on morality, (talk) on the path is immediately preceded by that on heaven; for the Lord, having in the first instance indicated a sweet taste (assaada.m) together with its root-cause, then makes manifest by various means the peril (therein), in order to separate beings therefrom, and then finally indicates, to those whose hearts have been shocked through hearing of that peril(aadiinavasava nena), the absence of the cycle, opening with an explanation of the virtues of renunciation. " >Suk: I never skip any of your posts (except for the ones about the origin of the Abhidhamma ;-)), but I don't recall reading this one with Han. I'm very grateful that you quote it here for me. Thank you. ... Sarah: thx for your response. I usually skip my ones about the origin of the Abhi too:-)). .... > >S: Having talked about the danger of sense-desires, "severing the trunk of the elephant he had just decorated", the talk continues with the advantages of renunciation and when the listener was receptive, in this case Suppabuddha the leper, the teaching on the Four Noble Truths - 'Dukkha, uprising, cessation (and the) path'. >Suk: The Buddha pointed out rebirth in heaven being result of kusala kamma of particular kind but also that this is anicca, dukkha and anatta, hence the need to develop the understanding which leads out of samsara. It is not as some would suggest, that the Buddha encouraged *aiming* for good rebirth for those who can't have any level of understanding of the Eightfold Path. ... Sarah: Well put. ... >> S: I think that, just like now, people aspired to heavenly rebirths and in many cases, as this one, it was only after talking about the great results of daana and morality by way of such rebirths, that the trunk of the elephean could be severed and the insights into conditioned impermanent dhammaa realised. >Suk: Yes. The Buddha knew what to say to whom. In some case the audience may not be ready for higher understanding and would simply develop more kusala of other kinds, but the Buddha had the long term goal in mind. ... Sarah: yes, we see it in the same way:-) ... >There is also this that the Buddha *knowing* the accumulations saying just the right thing, and the Buddhist today coming to his own conclusion about what he needs to hear and do. The former can't ever be wrong, whereas the latter inevitably is and must involve Wrong View of one kind or another. >Thanks again for finding and posting this old discussion. ... Sarah: Thx for encouraging it. I found the discussions we had together with Ken H interesting. Look f/w to seeing you soon. Metta Sarah ====== #101058 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 9:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) sarahprocter... Dear Mike NZ (& Jessica) --- On Sun, 27/9/09, mikenz66 wrote: >MikeNZ: Sorry, forgot to come back to this. Yes, I live in New Zealand, attend a Thai Wat locally. First went there to improve my Thai almost four years ago and ended up Buddhist... >My main teachers have been from my local Wat (but from Bangladesh and the US originally). When I spent some time in Hong Kong in 2007 I had the opportunity to meet a variety of other Theravada teachers such as Ajahn Brahm, Bhante Mahinda, and the monk associated with the Theravada group I attended. I also worked through Bhikkhu Bodhi's lectures on the MN and Sn, as well as other books such as the Visuddhimagga and the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. I've also worked though Nina's Abhidhamma in Daily Life. ... S: Thx for introducting yourself. If you come to HK again, let us know! Did you meet a friend, Jessica, in HK by any chance? She occasionally writes on DSG and we've met up a few times. I mention her because she's actively involved with the various Theravada groups and has also been working through BB's MN lectures and translating them. I'm interested to see you've been studying quite a lot of Abhidhamma too. ... >I'm not likely to post here much, since with the background of my mostly Mahasi-School teachers I'm clearly in the "Buddha taught techniques" camp (and I've no interest in arguments) but it's fascinating to see different interpretations of the Dhamma. The points that many here make are very helpful to my understanding. .... S: If you want to put yourself in a "camp", you'll find you're in the largest one, so no need to be concerned:-) I think we all just go on considering what we hear from various teachers, what we study in the texts, what makes sense in daily life and share our findings together. I can see already that you have a lot to contribute. It's a bit like Nina's example of the party - when we're thinking of our other friends here and how to share our understandings or questions, then there's no concern about arguments or camps:-). Perhaps this will encourage Jessica to add a few words too.... Metta Sarah ========== #101059 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 9:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? sarahprocter... Hi pt & all, On killing and kamma patha... #100960 --- On Wed, 30/9/09, ptaus1 wrote: >But I'm still going through UP on kilesas and anusaya,... ... S: After those, you may sometime like to look at the section under 'killing' for lots more on the following, I think. >So, there are several levels that are now open for consideration (focussing on the extreme case of killing here): - is the kamma of personally committing a killing equal to kamma of ordering others to kill? ... S: Yes, both are akusala kamma patha with the intention to kill. Of course, many degrees and varieties of both. From "The Ten Training Precepts" in the comy to Khuddakapaa.tha (Minor Readings), transl. by Nanamoli: " 'By means': in the case of killing-breathing-things there are six kinds of means: with one's own hand, by command, by missile (S: i.e throwing something), by fixed contrivance (S: such as a trap or poison), by [magical] science, and by supernormal power." ... >- is the kamma of ordering a killing equal to kamma of encouraging others to kill? ... S: Ordering is 'stronger', complete akusala kamma patha, but for sure, a sotapanna wouldn't do either. ... - is the kamma of encouraging others to kill equal when the encouraged >person kills compared to the case when he doesn't kill? etc ... S: Probably. Let me quote (from the same text)the following on when someone is commanded to kill a being and is successful compared to when not successful: "If the object is mistaken and someone is killed other than the one whom it was commanded to kill, then the giver of the command had no responsibility for the action. But if the object is not mistaken and death is caused, then responsibility for the action lies with both the one giving the command and the one commanded: with the former from the moment of his giving the command, and with the latter from the moment of the death." As I say, I think you'll find more in UP. I'm not sure how helpful it is except to appreciate how we can never understand all the intricacies of kamma and its results:-). Metta Sarah ======= #101060 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Dear pt & all, A correction... --- On Sat, 3/10/09, ptaus1 wrote: >Thanks for your replies. I'm still a bit confused about the third point: > >2. Sankhara nimitta of colour is nimitta of which khanda? Rupa or sanna? > ... > S: Rupa. It is colour which is experienced and colour is always rupa, a sankhara dhamma. > .... > >3.That nimitta is classified as which of the 6 possible mental objects (sensitive matter, subtle matter, citta, cetasika, pannatti and nibbana)? > .... > S: I sensitive matter. ... S: Sorry, I forgot that 'sensitive matter' is a translation of pasaadaruupa, referring to the sense-bases, such as eye-sense. I'm just used to the Pali term here and wrote in haste. Thx for picking me up on it! Actually, it was an unintentionally 'trick' qu which I fell for. colour or visible object is none of the above. It is gross matter or derived matter, but not sensitive or subtle matter. Metta Sarah ======= #101061 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 10:35 am Subject: Boycott by the monks hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah, Chew, Alex and others, I read in a Burmese book that a monk can refuse to accept the alms from a lay-person if the lay-person does one of the following acts. We call that refusal "patta-pa.tikujjana". [patta = bowl; pa.tikujjana = turning upside down] (1) bhikkhuna.m alaabhaaya parisakkana = if a lay-person tries to do something which causes the loss of gains for the monk. (2) anatthaaya parisakkana = if a lay-person tries to do something which causes the misfortune or harm to the monk. (3) avaasaaya parisakkana = if a lay-person tries to do something which causes the monk unable to stay in the residence. (4) akkosana = if a lay-person abuses the monk. (5) bhedana = if a lay-person causes division or disunion among the monks. (6) Buddha ava.n.na bhaasana = if a lay-person speaks ill of the Buddha. (7) Dhamma ava.n.na bhaasana = if a lay-person speaks ill of the Dhamma. (8) Sangha ava.n.na bhaasana = if a lay-person speaks ill of the Sangha. I will be grateful if you can kindly let me know whether the above information is the correct information. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #101062 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 10:57 am Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Regarding: S: "...Thus, I use the adjective `formal' to imply a method or a practice or a course of action carried out with commitment by fulfilling all the necessary conditions until reaching the desired goal." Scott: Okay, thanks. Sincerely, Scott. #101063 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 11:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Dear Chew, pt, Alberto & all, part 1 --- On Fri, 2/10/09, Sadhu Chew wrote: >The visible object, as a ruupa, last for 17 thought moments, which is only in the sense-door process. The next series of mind-door process, which takes the previous visible object as its object, which is also called the nimitta of the same visible object. ... S: Yes. ... >As you said, it is also a ruupa. So, does it also last for 17 thought moments when it starts to arise in the mind-door process as the nimitta of the previous visible object? (I guess not.) ... S: No. In the mind-door process in the sense-sphere plane, after the bhavanga cittas, there is the mind-door adverting consciousness, the 7 javana cittas and the two registration cittas (when the object is clear). ... >Since it is not the present visible object, and it is only the previous visible object, can we say this nimitta is only a concept? >The past object that arose in the past and ceased at there, it doesn't last until the present moment. >The present object that arises in the present and ceases at there, it doesn't sustain until the future. ... S: You ask good questions. As you say, the visible object has fallen away and strictly speaking, it is just the nimitta of that object. However, it is referred to in the texts as 'present object'. Awareness can be aware of the characterisitic of this 'present object' as the processes follow in such rapid succession. It is 'present object by way of Navattabba (Not so Classifiable) object'. It's the same when nibbana is reviewed by the paccavekana cittas immediately succeeding the lokuttara cittas. It's 'reality by way of navattabba'. [More in U.P. under 'navattabba']. If we say the visible object is a concept when experienced in the mind-door process, the same would be true of any other namas or rupas. This would mean that in the mind-door process, satipatthana could not know the characteristics of realities, only concepts. At the first stage of insight, pa~n~naa has to know namas and rupas clearly in the mind-door processes. As to the point I wrote above about the visible object (or nimitta of visible object) still being the 'present' reality or 'present' characteristic of reality and not a concept, see CMA 111, 17, for example: "Manodvaarikacittaana.m pana chabbidham pi paccuppannam atiita.m anaagata.m kaalavimutta~n ca yathaaraham aalambana.m hoti." "But the object of mind-door consciousness is of six kinds, and that object may be present, past, future, or independent of time, according to circumstances." BB's Guide: "'and that pertains only to the present': the word 'present' is used here in the sense of 'momentary present' (kha.nikapaccuppanna), that is, in reference to what has actual being at the present moment of experience. Since material phenomena have a slower rate of change than mental phenomena, a single visible form can remain present to all the cittas in a process in the eye door. So too for the objects of the other physical senses. " 'The object of mind-door consciousness': The cittas that arise in a mind-door process can cognize any of the five physical sense objects as well as all types of mental objects inaccessible to the cittas in a sense-door process. Mind-door cittas can also cognize an object belonging to any of the three periods of time - past, present, or future - or one that is independent of time (kaalavimutta). This last expression applies to Nibbaana and concepts. Nibbaana is timeless because its intrinsic nature (sabhaava) is without arising, change and passing away; concepts are timeless because they are devoid of intrinsic nature." S: Here, the sense objects are not included in concepts. The commentary itself to follow... Metta Sarah ======== #101064 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Dear pt, Chew, Alberto & all, part 2 The following is from the commentary itself to Abhidhammatthasangaha (PTS, Wijeratne & Gethin), taking the Pali from CMA: "....Dhammaaramma.na.m pana pasaada-sukhumaruupa-citta-cetasika-nibbaana-pa~n~nattivasena chadhaa sangayhanti" "But mind object comprises six kinds: the sensitive materialities, subtle materialities, consciousness, mentalities, nibbaana, and concepts." Commentary: "Leaving aside the five kinds of sense-object and the sense organs, the remaining types of materiality are the sixteen subtle kinds." ... S: Just before this section, the objects experienced through the senses, were described. Here under dhammaaramma.na, those other objects *only* experienced through the mind-door are included. ... "Tattha cakkhudvaarikacittaana.m sabbesam pi ruupam eva aaramma.na.m. Ta~n ca paccuppannam eva. Tathaa sotadvaarikacittaadiinam pi saddaadiini. Taani ca paccuppannaani yeva." "Therein, the object of all the consciousnesses [occurring] at the eye-door is exclusively visible form that is present; likewise, [the object] of consciousnesses [occurring] at the ear-door, etc., is exclusively sound, etc., that is present." Commentary: "'Present': actually occurring". "Manodvaarikacittaana.m pana chabbidham pi paccuppannam atiita.m anaagata.m kaalavimutta~n ca yathaaraham aalambana.m hoti." "But the object of consciousness [occurring] at the mind-door is of all six [senses], and present, past, future and free of time, as appropriate." Commentary: " 'All six': all six, beginning with visible form, etc. Because Nibbaana and concepts do not perish, they cannot occur by way of past, etc., time, and so are called 'free of time'." S: So here it's referring to objects experienced through the mind-door, beginning with visible object and including 'present'. Clearly these are not included in concepts as I read it. Continuing... " 'as appropriate': according to whether [the consciousnesses] are sense-sphere impulsions, or the impulsions of the higher knowledges and other higher consciousnesses, and so forth. For the objects of the sense-sphere impulsions, other than that which produces smiles, are sixfold, belonging to the three times and free of time; the object of that which produces smiles belongs only to the three times, thus one must declare that its object is exclusively a limited object. The objects of the higher-knowledge impulsions, which occur by way of the divine eye, etc., are sixfold, belonging to the three times and free of time as appropriate..." S: I'll look forward to any further comments. Metta Sarah ========= #101065 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, --- On Thu, 1/10/09, sprlrt wrote: > I think this would be an example of akusala dhammas being pakatpanissaya paccaya for kusala ones. > ..... > S: Possibly. Pakatuupanissaya paccaya is certainly the broadest condition - anything can condition cittas and cetasikas by this condition. Certainly, object condition. > ..... >A hard to please customer, or not an easy article to sell. :-) ... S: ;-) I always have to consider what you write.... never easy:-) ... >Btw, wouldn't the object of that citta be nimitta? The shadow of a (single) reality, rather than the paramattha dhamma itself, since that has already fallen away, along with all its sampayutta/associat ed nama-dhammas, in a previous process of akusala cittas, i.e. it's past khandha, as dead as a dodo, ... S: Just the same answer as I wrote. Yes, nimitta of a paramattha dhamma. When the texts refer to objects of mind-door processes as including "...consciousness, mentalities, nibbaana and concepts", the charcteristic of the akusala dhamma appearing (which strictly speaking is 'as dead as a dodo')is one of the namas, not one of the concepts in the above. As I said, otherwise, no namas could ever be known. ... >and yet pakatpanissaya paccaya (the past reality itself, not its present nimitta, which is rammana paccaya and which, in its turn, would be pakatpanissaya paccaya, a single condition, of the several required, for the arising of citta & cetasikas dhammas, for (future) kusala -> kusala patterns, instead than for kusala -> kusala ones). All very natural/pakati. .. ... S: Hope this is clear to everyone else:-)) Most simply, I think that dosa arising now accumulates by way of pakatuupanissaya paccaya, making it easier for dosa to arise again and again in future. Of course it can also be a condition for awareness to be aware of that same dosa (yes, the characterisitic of the reality, dosa which is then the object). Anything can be a condition by way of pakatupanissaya as you say. Any stones left unturned? Metta Sarah ======= #101066 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Analytical study of 5 Khandhas, 12 bases & 18 elements sarahprocter... Dear Chew, You've been studying the Abhidhamma carefully. What are your own comments on those you quote from Mahasi Sayadaw? Do you read there as being any discrepancy between the texts, or do you note a number of misunderstandings in the article? Metta Sarah --- On Fri, 2/10/09, Sadhu Chew wrote: >I read this at http://www.buddhane t.net/budsas/ ebud/mahasi- anat/anat02. htm and would like to share with you all. A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN ABHIDHAMMA AND SUTTAS <...> #101067 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 12:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, --- On Fri, 2/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: >I understand the Buddha's teaching and believe that there ARE external & internal objects such as hair, skin, bones, urine, excrement and so on. Sure that they have are percieved also as rough, harsh, solid, soft, etc etc. ... S: "Hair" is which of the 18 elements we're discussing or are you saying that there are 18 elements plus an unlimited number of other realities, starting with hair? .... >>A:"what is touched is not hardness/softness but "solid things" >Hardness & softness is a description of the feeling that "solid thing" has when it touches the body. Don't mistake the two. >The teaching that reduces external objects to mere feelings, sensations, cognitions, concepts, seems to border idealism of some sort. That, IMHO, reduces the nibbida impact on a person. There is less disgust at unsanitary and disgusting filth if we consider it to be mere perception. ... S: The vipallasas (perversions of perception) are only eradicated by understanding the the conditioned elements as anicca, dukkha, anatta, not 'solid in any way', and asubha in order to overcome the perceptions we have, when we have no understanding of elements, that what we experience is nicca, sukkha, atta and subha. From a quote in a post I wrote before #45957: Vism XX1,4: “However, when continuity is disrupted by discerning rise and fall, the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent in its true nature. When the postures are exposed by attention to continuous oppression, the characteristic of pain becomes apparent in its true nature. When the resolution of the compact is effected by resolution into elements, the characteristic of not-self becomes apparent in its true nature.” ***** S: On the last paragraph, "the resolution of the compact" refers to the understanding that it is not a 'solid' world. There are no finger nails, hair, books and computers. Only by the "resolution into elements", the understanding that there are only ever the elements we discussed, will the characteristic of anatta be apparent as the quote says. ><.....>Commenting on this Vis. paragraph, Pm. says: "Resolution of the compact" is effected by resolving [what appears compact] in this way, "The earth element is one, the water element is another" etc., distinguishing each one; and in this way, "Contact is one, feeling is another" etc., distinguishing each one. "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial states have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm.824).”< Metta Sarah p.s [Looking forard to your response and any further discussion in the 18 elements, 12 bases thread] ========= #101068 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 12:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements at MN1 sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, [All, I'm just waiting for Jon to arrive back from Fiji tonight where he's been (again!) for the last week....and fortunately, my neck, shoulder has settled down a lot...anyway, hence the flurry of posts!] --- On Fri, 2/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: >RE: MN1 >I believe that what MN1 talks about ignorant worldling a) Taking external object as Self or Self property. I was NOT arguing that external/interal elements are Self. They are Anatta. ... S: Whenever we take anything for a 'whole' or 'thing' in reality, such as a nail or a computer, then there's atta-view, no understanding of elements, such as pathavi-dhatu (earth element appearing as hardness/softness) at the moment of touch. ... >b) Taking grammatical inflexions too literally and presuposing a Self and Self's relation to them. >I was NOT arguing that external/interal elements are Self. They are Anatta and language is just a convention. ... S: I thought you were talking about 'solid things' such as nails and hair as actually existing, even though you now agree that softness/hardness is felt through the body-sense? I look forward to your clarifications. ... >c) Speculation about various things, external elements, etc. >The fact is that the suttas such as MN28 & MN62 make it clear what exists. ... S: What exists now? What is experienced now? Through which door-way? How do you match your interpretation of the MN suttas with your detailed list and careful study of elements and ayatanas? I'm not trying to make your life difficult. I think these are important points to consider as you're doing. Always good to share understandings with you, Alex. Metta Sarah ======= #101069 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 1:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? sarahprocter... Hi pt, --- On Sat, 3/10/09, ptaus1 wrote: >...But, what if this little extra accumulation of lobha/dosa was exactly what was needed for a certain audience member to commit an akusala kamma patha when he goes home after the show? I think this weak level is what interests me most, and whether any responsibility for that action of the audience member would rest with the actor? .. S: K. Sujin would say that this example is 'another situation'. In other words, interesting as I find all the points too, we're always thinking in terms of stories and 'what ifs' instead of understanding the presently conditioned reality which appears now. We think that we can decide what job to do, which place to travel to, what to wear and so on, but in reality, there are just conditioned elements arising and falling away all the time. As I just said to Alex, the world is not as solid as it seems....actually, there is only ever one of the six worlds appearing now, for a moment and then gone. A moment of awareness and understanding is far more precious than trying to 'work out the scenario':-) This is how we can live easily and contentedly, understanding whatever has been conditioned already, whether it be thinking, dosa, visible object or any other reality. Metta Sarah ======== #101070 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 1:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? sarahprocter... Dear pt, The gift of sound.. --- On Sat, 3/10/09, ptaus1 wrote: > S: ....Of course, there can also be kusala, such as daana - the gift of sound and so on. >pt: Could you perhaps say a little more about "the gift of sound"? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. ... S: Many, many kinds of giving. Lots of detail is given in "A Treatise on the Paramis", in the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka which B.Bodhi has translated and included with his translation of the Brahmajala Sutta and commentaries (BPS): "....Herein, giving is threefold by way of the object to be given: the giving of material things (aamisadaana), the giving of fearlessness (abhayadaana), and the giving of the Dhamma (dhammadaana). Among these, the object to be given can be twofold: internal and external.......The external gift can also become sixfold when analyzed by way of sense object (aaramma.nato: visible forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and non-sensory objects. ...." later... "The gift of sounds (saddadaana) should be understood by way of the sounds of drums, etc. It is certainly not possible to give a sound as one gives a cluster of lotuses, tearing it out by its bulb and roots and placing it in the hands. But one gives a gift of sound by giving its base. Thus he makes a gift of sound by presenting a musical instrument, such as drums or tom toms, to the Triple Gem; or by giving medicine for the voice, such as oil and molasses, to preachers of the Dhamma; or by announcing a lecture on the Dhamma, chanting the scriptures, giving a discourse on the Dhamma, holding a discussion, or expressing appreciation for the good deeds of others." S: Even when we're not discussing the Dhamma, we can speak kindly and gently, we can perform music or give a show, sharing and giving our voice as an artist shares and gives his art-work. As a teacher, I used to share my voice with my students. Of course, it always comes back to the cittas again, which are bound to be mixed, even when we're discussing the Dhamma. And now I think I'll take a rest as I wait for the gift of Jon's voice:-) Metta Sarah ======= #101071 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements at MN1 upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - In a message dated 10/3/2009 8:46:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Whenever we take anything for a 'whole' or 'thing' in reality, such as a nail or a computer, then there's atta-view, no understanding of elements, such as pathavi-dhatu (earth element appearing as hardness/softness) at the moment of touch. ============================ Sarah, if you would enlarge the inventory of "things" conceived of with atta-view to include the so called paramattha dhammas - heat(s), hardness(es), sights, sounds, tastes, odors etc, you and I would be on *exactly* the same page! Alex had written "The teaching that reduces external objects to mere feelings, sensations, cognitions, concepts, seems to border idealism of some sort." I would sooner say that it is a phenomenalism or radical empiricism, and it is very much my perspective. IMO, it *should* be yours as well. Alex, OTOH, seems to be an objectivist who believes that we touch an actual thing called hair and experience a quality of it called earth element. I find that perspective to consist of a double dose of reification, reifying complexes of perceived qualities, and reifying the perceived qualities, whereas you only reify the perceived qualities. My perspective seems to be different from both of yours, and more radical (or "extreme," if you prefer). As I see it, even the qualities/sensations of hardness, warmth, sights, sounds, etc are only conventional entities, conceptually isolated aspects of the flow of experience erroneously viewed as separate "realities" but that are actually the result of mental construction that isolates mental snapshots of the gapless flow of experience and identifies similar (and often contiguous) ones. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101072 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 6. jonoabb Hi Howard (100982) > At the time of the Buddha, only monks had the leisure for such > practice. It is different now, especially in the "developed countries" and > especially for retirees. Had to smile when I read this. Isn't it often suggested that life was simpler in the Buddha's time and there were consequently fewer distractions through the sense-doors and the like? To my understanding, none of these considerations is of relevance even if true. Human nature remains essentially the same, across all cultures and through all ages, and the difficulty of obtaining liberation varies only with the extent to which the teachings are extant (or, to put it another way, with the extent to which right view is found). Jon #101073 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 2:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The 11 Advantages! jonoabb Hi JC (100984) > First of all, I would like to ask how to start a new topic in DSG. It doesn't seem to accept a new topic. I'd just like to mention that to start a new topic from the Yahoo Groups website there is, in addition to the way suggested by Sarah, a link for just that purpose. To find it: - on the DSG home page, click on "Messages" in the left-had pane - on the "Messages" page, look on the right had side just above the links for "Older" and "Newer" messages. - find the link which says "Start Topic", click on that and enter your own subject heading, type your message and send. Jon #101074 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 2:32 pm Subject: Re: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! jonoabb Hi Suan (101002) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > The Pali term for the formal samatha metods is Kamma.t.thaanaani, while the Pali term for formal vipassanaa methods is vipassanaa. >... > The Pali term for the three formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa is tisso sikkhaa. > > The Pali term for the three formal practices for nirvana is also tisso sikkhaa. > > Those translations are what can be called contextual translations, which may usually come from Pali scholars who have read Pali texts extensively. > =============== This is interesting. Could you give example of the kinds of textual reference you are referring to. Regarding kammatthaana, I understand this to refer to the 40 subjects of contemplation for samatha development (it is sometimes translated as "field of work" or similar, which I understand to be its literal meaning). How do you get to "formal samatha method" from that, as a matter of translation? What textual defences would support the translation of "vipassana" as "formal vipassana practice? What is the textual basis for using 2 different translations for the term "tisso sikkhaa" in the same paragraph or passage? Jon #101075 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 2:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) jonoabb Hi Howard (101013) > But as regards the commentaries, you could be right. I may have > mis-recalled what I read, so I'd like to withdraw that particular remark while I > think about it further ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------- > Final conclusions aside, I applaud you, Jon! :-) > ------------------------------------------------ Not sure what I've done to deserve that, but thanks anyway '=)) Jon #101076 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? jonoabb Hi pt (101043) > pt: > I'm not sure, to be honest. For example, does seeing a movie require any more suspension of disbelief than getting a second mortgage or going to the doctor's? I mean, in ultimate terms, these three options are just illusions that we fall for (out of greed) believing they will make our life better and happier. But in the ultimate sense (of individual cittas, or many lifetimes upon lifetimes) this is very far from the truth, as neither of the three is vipassana that offers a lasting solution. So, all three would count as wrong view or something approaching it, so I don't see why would there be any difference between the actions of an actor, a mortgage broker or a doctor - i.e. why should they be responsible for my illusions about them? > =============== In the case of the actor we are talking about the intention to make others heedless to the way things are at the present moment. This does not apply in the case of the doctor or mortgage broker (even though the doctor may believe he can really cure illness). =============== > pt: > I think it goes down to what constitutes "encouraging others to commit an akusala kamma patha", and what are the levels of it. To take the example of a theater play: =============== As I understand the explanations given in the texts, the encouraging or ordering would have to be much more direct that in the form of a play in order for it to be the same kamma patha as that performed by the other person. One possible example: A religious leader urges his followers to kill a particular person. Or something more direct than that. =============== > At the weak level - for example a Disney style fairytale about people of mostly good morals, that evokes nothing more than mild levels of lobha/dosa in the audience. No kamma pathas encouraged here directly. But, what if this little extra accumulation of lobha/dosa was exactly what was needed for a certain audience member to commit an akusala kamma patha when he goes home after the show? I think this weak level is what interests me most, and whether any responsibility for that action of the audience member would rest with the actor? =============== As I said earlier, I think the key lies in the (attempted) influence on attention to the present rather than to level of lobha or dosa per se. Just speculating, though. Jon #101077 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 6. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Nina) - In a message dated 10/3/2009 10:26:13 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (100982) > At the time of the Buddha, only monks had the leisure for such > practice. It is different now, especially in the "developed countries" and > especially for retirees. Had to smile when I read this. Isn't it often suggested that life was simpler in the Buddha's time and there were consequently fewer distractions through the sense-doors and the like? ------------------------------------------------- Not that I'm aware of! Who would suggest that? Do you think life was easy for the mass of people circa 500 BCE on the Indian subcontinent? Nina & I had had the following conversation: << (Nina) It is felt by some people that, in order to develop understanding of one’s mind, one should retire from daily life and sit still in quiet surroundings. ============================== (Howard) In addition to other practices, the Buddha repeatedly urges this. ------ N: Yes, to whom? To monks, they lead a life suitable for monks. >> Nina's point was that this secluded practice was practical only for monks, who lead a suitable life, with just "getting by" being task enough for householders. And I agree that at the time and place of the Buddha that was indeed the case, but not so much today, especially in specific contexts. I replied to Nina with << At the time of the Buddha, only monks had the leisure for such practice. It is different now, especially in the "developed countries" and especially for retirees. >>, my point being that nowadays, and in special contexts, the practicality of secluded practice is also available to lay persons, not only monks. And I do believe this is quite so. In the developed nations today, and especially for retirees (and the idle rich ;-)), there is a very large number of people for whom much of the harshness of life that consumes all one's efforts just to survive is missing, providing a degree of leisure to lay persons unheard of at the time of the Buddha. --------------------------------------------------------- To my understanding, none of these considerations is of relevance even if true. Human nature remains essentially the same, across all cultures and through all ages, and the difficulty of obtaining liberation varies only with the extent to which the teachings are extant (or, to put it another way, with the extent to which right view is found). ------------------------------------------------- I also believe that human nature remains essentially the same. But other conditions have changed. ------------------------------------------------- Jon ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101078 From: "colette" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 4:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. ksheri3 separation and detachment. how can you separate and/or detach your SELF from something that does not exist in the first place? How is it possible? You created that which you now say you want to separate and to detach your self from. How is it possible for something that does not exist and never existed in the first place, how is it possible to detach yourself from something that your own desires manifested for you to revel in, for you to enjoy, for you to be the best slave that you could possibly be, for having the most pain and most torture that you could possibly recieve since your mind created and manifested these illusions in the first place? PLEASE, DO A TINY BIT OF RESEARCH. Do a tiny bit of fact checking. It's not that hard with the internet. In fact you don't have to get up off of your lazy ass at all, you simply have to perform ritual behavior, repeatative motion, with your fingers. PLEASE, review KADAG TREKCHO, SAMAJA TANTRA (NO NOT THAT SIMPLE LITTLE DRUG ADDICT SHIT CALLED KUNDALINI IN THE FORM OF KAULA TANTRA WHERE PERVERTS FIND THEMSELVES LIKE NEWT GINGRICH CONSTANTLY PANDERING TO ADULT ENTERTAINMENT COMPANIES TO GET MONEY, DONATIONS, TO FURTHER THEIR SICK AND PATHETIC DOCTRINES OF HATRED UPON THE ENTIRE SOCIETY -- YES, SORRY VENERABLE "JIMPA THE MONK" ;), I RECALL YOUR STATEMENTS TO ME THAT YOU ARE NOT CONCERNED WITH THAT SHIT FROM THE SEXUAL SIDE OF BUDDHISM/TANTRA AND I AM FINE WITH THAT, I JUST AM IMMERSED IN A WORLD OF SLAVES AND ADDICTS THAT CANNOT LEAVE THEIR ADDICTION TO SEX AND TORTURE AND SUFFERING), I bet that you consider that the Anuttarayoga Tantra is actually a product of Madison AVe and the advertising industry? I am sooooooooo hesitant of dealing with this now: "The Fourth is defined as the state that observes the states of wake, dream and deep sleep (and the intermediate ones and samadhi too, like jhana). So when one is in the Fourth the jhana experiences is not like "I am jhana" but "the mind is in jhana"." You are mearly working from a two dimensional book definition! YOU ARE NOT WORKING THE PRACTICE! YOU ARE NOT PARTICIPATING IN THE PRACTICE! YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE PRACTICE! You are EXTERNAL TO THE PRACTICE. You cannot find release from suffering by being EXTERNAL from the practice. THERE IS NO PEACE IS CHAOS! THERE IS NO SAMADHI IN CHAOS unless you are smarter that than Oxford physicist who has been bound in a wheel chair and a proponent of STRING THEORY, etc and then, through mathematics and calculations, well, then I guess you'll find some peace and calm but even there, you will still be plagued by DESIRE AND GRASPING. So, sleepless nights are or will be still on the menu, ritual behavior, what your mind is gonna have to eat and digest. It's kindof like putting sugar into the gas tank of a high performance vehicle, if you feed your brain, your engine, that stinkin fat and contaminents from FAST FOOD JOINTS, well, then you can't possibly expect your mind to function any better than an engine that has received sugar in the gas tank. Thanks for trying to make your position clearer however I am not in the best of situations and am constantly bothered by scum that consider themselves as having, possessing, SHIT THAT DON'T STINK and so they are constantly trying to avoid responsibility for their behavior by the means of having me take the blame for how they acted, what they did, and why they did it. STILL, it's good that you interacted with me and gave me the chance to open my "steam release valve" LOL. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "freawaru80" wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > > > the condition of DREAM STATE as being a consciousness which can be recalled? Isn't that the state of YOGA NIDRA? A fourth consciousness outside the levels of consciousness as depicted in the Western psychology: Beta, alpha, theta, delta? Yoga Nidra is outside these states, levels of electrical brain wave functioning. You may also care to look into DZOGCHEN but that's a Mahayana practice outside, external to, the Theravadan practice. > > > > toodles, > > colette > > > > I think that "The Fourth" in Yoga refers to a high level vipassana state. It is also referred to as the "Witness". The Thai Forest Tradition also uses the name "Witness" for it. > > It is - IMO - not identical to normal dream lucidity. But there are similarities such as the separation and detachment. The Fourth is defined as the state that observes the states of wake, dream and deep sleep (and the intermediate ones and samadhi too, like jhana). So when one is in the Fourth the jhana experiences is not like "I am jhana" but "the mind is in jhana". > #101079 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 10:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements at MN1 truth_aerator Dear Sarah, Howard and all, >sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex & all, > > [All, I'm just waiting for Jon to arrive back from Fiji tonight where he's been (again!) for the last week....and fortunately, my neck, shoulder has settled down a lot...anyway, hence the flurry of posts!] > > --- On Fri, 2/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >RE: MN1 > > >I believe that what MN1 talks about ignorant worldling > a) Taking external object as Self or Self property. > I was NOT arguing that external/interal elements are Self. They are Anatta. > ... > S: Whenever we take anything for a 'whole' or 'thing' in reality, such as a nail or a computer, then there's atta-view, no understanding of elements, such as pathavi-dhatu (earth element appearing as hardness/softness) at the moment of touch. > ... > >b) Taking grammatical inflexions too literally and presuposing a Self and Self's relation to them. > > >I was NOT arguing that external/internal elements are Self. They are Anatta and language is just a convention. > ... >S: I thought you were talking about 'solid things' such as nails and >hair as actually existing, even though you now agree that >softness/hardness is felt through the body-sense? Do not conflate how the rupa is felt and how it is when it is not perceived. The thing which we label in English "Hair" exists whether there is awareness of it or not. It may be experienced as a certain colour, certain degree of hardness/softneness to the touch, etc etc. I look forward to your clarifications. > ... > >c) Speculation about various things, external elements, etc. > > >The fact is that the suttas such as MN28 & MN62 make it clear what exists. > ... >S: What exists now? What is experienced now? Through which door-way? >How do you match your interpretation of the MN suttas with your >detailed list and careful study of elements and ayatanas? > I don't believe there is any difficulty to say that rupa kkhanda consists of great primary elements of earth, water, fire, and air located in space that can be cognized with consciousness. I understand that this is different from how you and some people view these things. Consciousness is formed by coming together of internal & external matter. There is no such thing as pure consciousness without any object. Consciousness ALWAYS takes something as an object, even if the object is external mental idea. Pure consciousness cannot be, it would be unconsciousness. There are number of suttas on the above. 35. 27 (5) Full Understanding (2) ""The eye and forms and eye-consciousness and things to be cognized by eye-consciousness. The ear and sounds and ear-consciousness and things to be cognized by ear-consciousness. The body and tactile objects and body-consciousness and things to be cognized by body-consciousness. The mind and mental phenomena and mind-consciousness and things to be cognized by mind-consciousness." What are the "things to be cognized by eye-consciousness" and so on on? "Bhikkhus, founded on whatever, consciousness arises, it is reckoned on that. On account of eye and forms arises consciousness, it's reckoned eye consciousness. On account of ear and sounds arises consciousness, it's reckoned ear consciousness. On account of nose and smells arises consciousness, it's reckoned nose consciousness. On account of tongue and tastes arises consciousness, it's reckoned tongue consciousness. On account of body and touches arises consciousness, it's reckoned body consciousness. On account of mind and ideas arises consciousness, it's reckoned mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as based on whatever fire burns, it is reckoned by that. Fire ablaze with sticks is stick fire. Ablaze with twigs is twig fire. Ablaze with grass is grass fire. Ablaze with cow dung is cow dung fire. Ablaze with grain thrash is grain thrash fire. Ablaze with dirt is dirt fire. In the same manner consciousness on account is eye and forms is eye consciousness. Consciousness on account of ear and sounds is ear consciousness. Consciousness on account of nose and smells is nose consciousness. Consciousness on account of tongue and tastes is taste consciousness. Consciousness on account of body and touches is body consciousness. Consciousness on account of mind and ideas is mind consciousness." http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima1/038-mahatanhas\ ankhaya-sutta-e1.html Howard: The more objective reality, the less subjective control there can be. That is because objective reality exists independent of anyone's wishes or cognitions. You can't create reality by wishing or imagining. If you can, please tell me how to materialize 100 billion dollars so I could give A LOT OF DANA. By trying to say that reality is what is percieved, that may imply that if one could alter one's perceptions, the reality (which is just a perceptions, according to that view) would alter as well. Subtle hope of Control! With metta, Alex #101080 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements at MN1 upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 10/3/2009 6:28:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Howard: The more objective reality, the less subjective control there can be. That is because objective reality exists independent of anyone's wishes or cognitions. You can't create reality by wishing or imagining. If you can, please tell me how to materialize 100 billion dollars so I could give A LOT OF DANA. ------------------------------------------ Okay ... DONE!! ;-)) ----------------------------------------- By trying to say that reality is what is percieved, that may imply that if one could alter one's perceptions, the reality (which is just a perceptions, according to that view) would alter as well. ------------------------------------------ It doesn't imply that to me. What experience comes to me is determined by conditions of a variety of sorts, but largely by my kamma over long periods of time. ------------------------------------------ Subtle hope of Control! -------------------------------------------------- Nope. Just being on DSG all these years teaches me the hopelessness of control! LOLOL! =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101081 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 10:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements at MN1 truth_aerator Hello Howard, It does seem to me that if we equate the world as being only a mental perception, than if one could imagine and concentrate hard enough to alter perception, the world would be altered. Of course this cannot be done (if it can, please tell me how). Part of the objective reality teaching is the fact that things exists due to causes and conditions independent of any Self, Atman. But in any case, we can agree to disagree. Wishing all the best, Alex #101082 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 8:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements at MN1 upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 10/3/2009 6:48:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, It does seem to me that if we equate the world as being only a mental perception, than if one could imagine and concentrate hard enough to alter perception, the world would be altered. -------------------------------------------- I don't see it that way at all. For me, "whatever is" is content of (some) consciousness. As I view the matter, there are no unseen sights, untasted tastes, unsmelled smells, or uncognized concepts. (But to each his own! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- Of course this cannot be done (if it can, please tell me how). Part of the objective reality teaching is the fact that things exists due to causes and conditions independent of any Self, Atman. ---------------------------------------------- What arises certainly does so due to causes and conditions independent of any alleged self, but volition and also what we call "human action," mental and physical, has nothing to do with any imagined self. Bringing in "self" is a red herring as regards the nature of what is experienced. One does not have to be an objectivist who believes that there is an external reality called "hair" to understand that the no-self teaching is true. If anything, a phenomenalist perspective conduces to a belief in anatta. ---------------------------------------------- But in any case, we can agree to disagree. ---------------------------------------------- Or we can disagree on agreeing! Hmm, is that the same or different? ;-)) --------------------------------------------- Wishing all the best, ------------------------------------------------- Likewise, for sure! ----------------------------------------------- Alex ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101083 From: "Gerig" Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 6:14 am Subject: Some Questions sac9090 To All: I would like to ask if a husband allows his wife to have sex with another man (even bodhisattas give their wives and children to whoever asks it fromhim, right?) will the other man be committing illicit sex by having sex with the husband's wife? What about same sex sex where there is no penetration, is it a kind of illicit sex? Please state sutta sources for the answer. Also, the Buddha said that the establishment of the order of nuns will shorten the lifespan of the Dhamma by 500 years. Is He meaning this to be the path to arahetship? The Dhamma is 2500 years old now, so if its not the path to arahatship, what is the Buddha referring to that will last only 500 years? And if it is the path to arahatship He is referring to, didn't the texts say that it will last for 1000 years? 1000 years later anagami hood will disappear, 1000 more the sakadagami hood, 1000 still the path to stream-entry? Thanks Jon for the instructions. JC #101084 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 7:36 am Subject: Re: Some Questions szmicio Hello JC, > I would like to ask if a husband allows his wife to have sex with another man (even bodhisattas give their wives and children to whoever asks it fromhim, > right?) L: depends on cittas. they can be kusala cittas when sharing wife or akusala cittas. When you take a Mahajana text's and start read different stories(I just heard some) about Bodhisattas, you'll see very clear that all depends on wheather cittas are kusala or not. There was mahajana story about Bidhisatta that allowed himself to be eaten by a tiger, becuase it was hunger. Another one is about bodhisatta that killed people, beacuase he was compasionate to them and knew some issues that made him to do this. This is all such a good remider. It all depends wheather cittas that perform actions are kusala or nor. That's in brief. It's good to live according to siila. and not share a wife ;> see sigalovada sutta. And also I am aware of poeple's different sexual preferences. They are very differenciate. Some people like to have a sexual intercourse with children. some like something else like having a gay sex..etc... that's just different accumulations. some are akusala some are more akusala and some are kusala. Those different sexual acumulations had been accumaulated for many lifes. Those different accumulatins can be seen as just dhammas. We sould have a metta for people. > will the other man be committing illicit sex by having sex with the >husband's wife? L: Wow, this is extremaly strong akusala kammapattha. very very strong when you have sex with someones wife. We should rememebr that we need to live according to siilas. Hovever,the right livelyhood is conditioned only by the panna of the level of path(samma-ditthi), so it's not like wanting to have siila or trying. This is our thinking. There is still a lot of people in the world that betray their husbends and wifes ,but their behaviour's conditioned. We can have more metta when we see it's conditioned, and it also can happen to all of us, anytime. we dont know akusala kamma-patha is conditioned. Bhante Dhammadhara said, "dont mislead yourself, one moment of understanding in life and then akusalas all the time. Anything can happend in such akusala moments, we dont know." >What about same sex sex where there is no penetration, is it a kind of illicit sex? Please state sutta sources for the answer. L: Of course. In Vinaya Buddha said something about monk who was masturbating and Buddha said that's wrong. That's the only passage i know. But I think that by studing Abhidhamma you can learn much more, when we start examine the realities Buddha was spoken about, in our lives, then we can be more aware of the truth. And we can try to answer all this what is not clear yet, by ourselfes. I've heard once: "First try to answer yourself..." Best wishes Lukas #101085 From: "sprlrt" Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sprlrt Hi Sarah, > ... > S: Hope this is clear to everyone else:-)) > There is a typo as well: instead than for akusala -> kusala ones.) I can rephrase is as: the hypothetical present (paccuppanna) kusala na-sampayutta citta arising because of conditions (paccayas) which here would include previously arisen akusala dhammas (past akusala vicikiccha-sampayutta cittas) as pakatpanissaya paccaya as well as previously arisen kusala dhammas (past kusala na-sampayutta cittas) as hetu paccaya. pakatpanissaya paccaya: the paccaya is akusala, while the paccuppanna is kusala. hetu paccaya: here both paccaya and paccuppanna must be kusala (alobha, adosa and, for na-sampayutta cittas, amoha). This present series of cittas, javana, would have a past paramattha dhamma as its present object (i.e. a nimitta). This present object, a past (i.e. no longer in existence) sankhara dhamma (i.e. anicca), would be in its turn, along with the presently arisen kusala citta & cetasikas paramattha dhammas, be conditions for the arising of kusala cittas in future: pakatpanissaya paccaya: the paccaya would be kusala, the paccuppanna would be kusala too. hetu paccaya: here both paccaya and paccuppanna must be kusala. as well as for the arising of akusala cittas in future, as long as these roots (moha,lobha, dosa) aren't eradicated by lokuttara-magga cittas: pakatpanissaya paccaya: the paccaya would be kusala, while the paccuppanna would be akusala. hetu paccaya: here both paccaya and paccuppanna must be akusala. Alberto #101086 From: "Christine" Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 9:19 am Subject: Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness ~ By Venerable Dr.Walpola Rahula christine_fo... Hello all, I'm wondering if anyone would care to comment on this article. Until now,I'd always thought that Theravada had no place for this concept. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- "Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness ~ By Venerable Dr.Walpola Rahula In the Yogacara (Vijnanavada) School of Buddhism, alayavijnana is one of the most important doctrines developed by Asanga (fourth century A.C.). He divides the vijnanaskandha (Aggregate of Conciousness) the fifth of the five skandhas, into three different aspects or layers, namely, citta, manas and vijnana. In the Theravada Tipitaka as well as in the Pali Commentaries, these three terms - citta, manas, vijnana - are considered as synonyms denoting the same thing. The Sarvistivada also takes them as synonyms. Even the Lankavatarasutra, which is purely a Mahayana text, calls them synonyms although their separate functions are mentioned elsewhere in the same sutra. Vasubandhu, too, in his Vimsatikavijnapti-matratasiddhi considers them as synonyms. Since any one of these three terms - citta, manas, vijnanas - represents some aspect, even though not all aspects, of the fifth Aggregate vijnanaskandha, they may roughly be considered as synonyms. However, for Asanga, citta, manas and vijnana are three different and distinct aspects of the vyjnanaskandha. He defines this Aggregate as follows: 'What is the definition of the Aggregate of Consciousness (vijnanaskandha)? It is mind (citta), mental organ (manas) and also consciousness (vijnana). "And there what is mind (citta)? It is alayavijnana (Store-Consciousness) containing all seeds (sarvabijaka), impregnated with the traces (impressions) (vasanaparibhavita) of Aggregates (skandha), Elements (dhatu) and Spheres (ayatana) . . . 'What is mental organ (manas)? It is the object of alayavijnana always having the nature of self-notion (self-conceit) (manyanatmaka) associated with four defilements, viz. the false idea of self (atmadrsti), self-love (atmasneha), the conceit of 'I am' (asmimana) and ignorance (avidya) ... 'What is consciousness (vijnana)? It consists of the six groups of consciousness (sad vijnanakayah), viz. visual consciousness (caksurvijnana), auditory (srotra), olfactory (ghrana), gustatory (jihva), tactile (kaya), and mental consciousness (manovijnana) Thus we can see that vijnana represents the simple reaction or response of the sense-organs when they come in contact with external objects. This is the uppermost or superficial aspect or layer of the vijnanaskandha. Manas represents the aspect of its mental functioning, thinking, reasoning, conceiving ideas, etc. Citta, which is here called alayavijnana, represents the deepest, finest and subtlest aspect or layer of the Aggregate of Consciousness. It contains all the traces or impressions of the past actions and all good and bad future potentialities. The Sandhinirmocana-sutra also says that alayavijnana is called citta (Tibetan sems). It is generally believed that alayavijnana is purely a Mahayana doctrine and that nothing about it is found in Hinayana. But in the Mahayanasangraha Asanga himself says that in the Sravakayana (= Hinayana) it is mentioned by synonyms (paryaya) and refers to a passage in the Ekottaragama which reads: 'People (praja) like the alaya (alayarata), are fond of the alaya (alayarama), are delighted in the alaya (alayasammudita), are attached to the alaya (alayabhirata). When the Dharma is preached for the destruction of the alaya, they wish to listen (susrusanti) and lend their ears (srotram avadadhanti), they put forth a will for the perfect knowledge (ajnacittam upasthapayanti) and follow the path of Truth (dharmanudharma-pratipanna). When the Tathagata appears in the world (pradurbhava), this marvellous (ascarya) and extraordinary (adbhuta) Dharma appears in the world.' Lamotte identifies this Ekottaragama passage with the following passage in the Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam odahati annacittam upattapeti. Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo patubhavati. Besides this Anguttara passage, the term alaya in the same sense is found in several other places of the Pali Canon. The Pali Commentaries explain this term as 'attachment to the five sense-pleasures", and do not go deeper than that. But this also is an aspect of the alayavijnana. In the Lankavatarasutra the term tathagatagarbha is used as a synonym for alayavijnana and is described as 'luminous by nature' (prakrtiprabhasvara) and 'pure by nature' (prakrtiparisuddha) but appearing as impure 'because it is sullied by adventitious defilements' (agantuklesopaklistataya). In the Anguttaranikaya, citta is described as 'luminous' (pabhassara), but it is 'sullied by adventitious minor defilements' (agantukehi upakkilesehi upakkilittham). One may notice here that alaya-vijnana (or tathagatgarbha) and citta are described almost by the same terms. We have seen earlier that the Sandhi-nirmocana-sutra says that alayavijnana is also called citta. Asanga too mentions that it is named citta. It is this alayavijnana or citta that is considered by men as their "Soul', 'Self', 'Ego' or Atman. It should be remembered as a concrete example, that Sati, one of the Buddha's disciples, took vinnan (vijnana) in this sense and that the Buddha reprimanded him for this wrong view. The attainment of Nirvana is achieved by 'the revolution of alayavijnana' which is called asrayaparavrtti. The same idea is conveyed by the expression alayasamugghata 'uprooting of alaya' which is used in the Pali Canon as a synonym for Nirvana. Here it should be remembered, too, that analaya 'no-alaya' is another synonym for Nirvana. The alayavijnanaparavrtti is sometimes called bijaparavrtti 'revolution of the seeds' as well. Bija here signifies the 'seeds' of defilements (samklesikadharmabija) which cause the continuity of samsara. By the 'revolution of these seeds' one attains Nirvana. Again the Pali term khinabija, which is used to denote an arahant whose seeds of defilements are destroyed', expresses the same idea. Thus one may see that, although not developed as in the Mahayana, the original idea of alayavijnana was already there in the Pali Canon of the Theravada." #101087 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 9:35 am Subject: Re: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas sarahprocter... Dear Chew (& Han), Nina's away for a few days, so she asked me to "butt in"... --- On Sat, 3/10/09, Sadhu Chew wrote: Nina, what is the different between planes of existence and planes of citta? Can you please define the meaning of "planes of citta"? What is the paal.i word for "planes of citta"? Is it also mentioned in paal.i text? ... S: The term bhuumi is used for both, so we need to be clear whether the bhuumi is referring to "planes of citta" or "planes of existence" in context. I think the following is quite a good summary from the Guide to ch 1 in CMA: "...There are four planes of consciousness. Three are mundane: the sense sphere, the fine-material sphere, and the immaterial sphere; the fourth plane is the supramundane. The word 'avacara', 'sphere', which qualifies the first three planes, means 'that which moves about in, or frequents, a particular locality.' The locality frequented is the plane of existence (also bhuumi) designated by the name of the sphere, that is, the sensuous, the fine-material, and the immaterial planes of existence. However, though the three spheres of consciousness have a particularly close connection with the corresponding planes of existence, they are not identical. The spheres of consciousness are categories for classifying types of cittas, the planes of existence are realms or worlds into which beings are reborn and in which they pass their lives. "A definite relation nevertheless exists between the spheres of consciousness and planes of existence: a particular sphere of consciousness comprises those types of consciousness which are typical of the corresponding plane of existence and which 'frequent' that plane by tending to arise most often there. Consciousness of a particular sphere is not tied to the corresponding plane, but may arise in other planes of existence as well; for instance, fine-material and immaterial-sphere cittas can arise in the sensuous plane, and sense-sphere cittas can arise in the fine-material and immaterial planes. But still a connection is found, in that a sphere of consciousness is 'typical' for the plane that shares its name....." S: So, as Nina said, I think that in the context of the anusaya, the 'avacara' or 'bhuumi' refers to the planes of citta. Furthermore, as the passage above indicates and as you know, kaamaavacara cittas with attachment can arise in the ruupa and aruupa planes and ruupa and aruupavacara cittas can arise in the kaamaavacara plane. Here's an interesting summary about the anusaya from the commentary to Abhidhammatthasangaha, ch 7 (PTS): "The 'latent defilements (anusaya)' are what lie (senti) persisting (anu anu) in the mental continuum in the sense of not having been abandoned [by the path]; what is meant is that when they obtain an appropriate condition they arise. For the unabandoned defilements, which are capable of arising when the conditions are obtained, exist in the mental continuum as it were continuously (anu anu) sleeping (sayita), and in that state are called 'latent defilements'. "But from an absolute view point they are future defilements, and as past and present defilements have the same nature they are likewise termed [latent defilements], for no distinction in the nature of dhammas follows from a difference in thime." Metta Sarah ======= #101088 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 10:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- On Sat, 3/10/09, han tun wrote: >I read in a Burmese book that a monk can refuse to accept the alms from a lay-person if the lay-person does one of the following acts. We call that refusal "patta-pa.tikujjana ". [patta = bowl; pa.tikujjana = turning upside down] (1) bhikkhuna.m alaabhaaya parisakkana = if a lay-person tries to do something which causes the loss of gains for the monk. (2) anatthaaya parisakkana = if a lay-person tries to do something which causes the misfortune or harm to the monk. (3) avaasaaya parisakkana = if a lay-person tries to do something which causes the monk unable to stay in the residence. (4) akkosana = if a lay-person abuses the monk. (5) bhedana = if a lay-person causes division or disunion among the monks. (6) Buddha ava.n.na bhaasana = if a lay-person speaks ill of the Buddha. (7) Dhamma ava.n.na bhaasana = if a lay-person speaks ill of the Dhamma. (8) Sangha ava.n.na bhaasana = if a lay-person speaks ill of the Sangha. ... S: This is the same as given in the Vinaya, Cv. V.20.3. In the text, however, it is the lay-person's bowl which is to be turned upside down. In this case, Licchavi Vaddha's bowl, after he made some wrong accusations about the morality of Dabba the Mallian. I'm referring to I.B. Horner's (PTS) translation: " 'Because of this, monks, let the Order turn the Licchavi Vaddha's bowl upside down*, let it impose non-eating with the Order.** Monks, if a layfollower is possessed of eight qualities his bowl may be turned upside down***: [as you list above]....I allow you, monks, to turn a layfollower's bowl upside down if he is possessed of these eight qualities. "And thus, monks, should it be turned upside down: The Order should be informed by an experienced, competent monk, saying: 'Honoured sirs, let the Order listen to me. The Licchavi Vaddha is defaming the venerable Dabba the Mallian with an unfounded charge of falling away from moral habit. If it seems right to the Order, the Order may turn the Licchavi Vaddha's bowl upside down, it may impose non-eating with the Order..." "* Not a literal turning upside down, but a symbolical one performed by a formal act of the Order for turning down, nikkhujja.naa, a bowl, as described. VA. 1209 says 'here, if a person is possessed of any one of these eight qualities, having gone within the boundaries or outside them (the Order) may turn it down. When anyone's bowl is turned upside down thus, no alms may be taken in his house....It is set upright (again) by a formal act consisting of a motion and a resolution, ~nattidutiyakamma.'...." **"asa.mbhoga.m sa"mghena karotu. See CV i 25 where non-eating with an Order goes with and is a mark of an act of suspension." *** "This passage recurs at A iv 345. The first five qualities are also found at Vin i 84, ii.18." S: So it's symbolic - turning the lay-person's bowl upside down. Of course, the lay-person doesn't have a begging bowl. In the example above, after the Buddha declared that the Liccavi Vaddha's bowl was to be turned upside down by the Order, which meant not eating with the Order and so on, Ananda went to speak to him and told him of this. Apparently he fainted on the spot! Later, with his family and friends, he approached the Buddha and acknowledged his transgression. The Buddha then told the Order to "set upright" his bowl and granted him "eating with the Order". The Buddha then gave the 8 qualities/conditions for setting a bowl upright for a lay-person, which are, of course, the opposite of the ones above and only when informed by an "experienced, competent monk". Let me know if there's anything else you'd like me to check. Metta Sarah ====== #101089 From: "Mike" Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 10:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta (Introduction) mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Thx for introducting yourself. If you come to HK again, let us know! Did you meet a friend, Jessica, in HK by any chance? Probably not. The group I was involved with are Chinese and meet in Tsim Sha Tsui. I happened to be living not far away. Luckily they chant in Pali... Mike #101090 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 10:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, A couple of further clarifications... --- On Sun, 4/10/09, sarah abbott wrote: >S: This is the same as given in the Vinaya, Cv. V.20.3. In the text, however, it is the lay-person's bowl which is to be turned upside down. In this case, Licchavi Vaddha's bowl, after he made some wrong accusations about the morality of Dabba the Mallian. ..... S: I should have put in the 'Ven.' Dabba. He was accused by Licchavi Vaddha of intercourse with Vaddha's wife. >"Not a literal turning upside down, but a symbolical one performed by a formal act of the Order for turning down, nikkhujja.naa, a bowl, as described. VA. 1209 says 'here, if a person is possessed of any one of these eight qualities, having gone within the boundaries or outside them (the Order) may turn it down. When anyone's bowl is turned upside down thus, no alms may be taken in his house....It is set upright (again) by a formal act consisting of a motion and a resolution, ~nattidutiyakamma. '...." ... S: After this another note referring to the Anguttara commentary adds: "AA. iv. 159 explains, '(the Order) may turn it upside down by a proclamation, kammavaacaa for turning a bowl upside down, on account of which there is no receiving of alms given - not by placing it face downwards.' The phrase patta.m nikkujjati although used in the ordinary signification above, V.9.4 is not here. A layman certainly would have had no begging bowl that could have been, literally, turned upside down." It's quite complex and I've only looked quickly at the section. Some points are still not clear to me, such as about the lay-person eating with the bhikkhus. I think it's all symbolic and actually is a suspension of the offering on the part of the lay-person. Metta Sarah ======== #101091 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness ~ By Venerable Dr.Walpola Rahula sarahprocter... Hi Chris & all, Hope you've had a good weekend1 --- On Sun, 4/10/09, Christine wrote: >I'm wondering if anyone would care to comment on this article. Until now,I'd always thought that Theravada had no place for this concept. <...> "Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness ~ By Venerable Dr.Walpola Rahula ... S: You're right - lots of misunderstandings on this issue. See U.P.: "Alaya - attachment or storehouse? - see also 'Ayuhana' 78622, 83873, 84004" In addition to these posts, see also the earlier one, #19473. Let me know if there are any points you'd like to discuss further or if you have any comments on these earlier posts I wrote. Metta Sarah ======== #101092 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 9:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind efforts to find out the references for my request. I am also amazed at your wealth of knowledge. My sincere admiration! > Sarah: S: This is the same as given in the Vinaya, Cv. V.20.3. In the text, however, it is the lay-person's bowl which is to be turned upside down. In this case, Licchavi Vaddha's bowl, after he made some wrong accusations about the morality of Dabba the Mallian. I'm referring to I.B. Horner's (PTS) translation: Han: This fact is new to me. I have never heard about turning the lay-person's bowl upside down. But then, you had added the following remark: "It's quite complex and I've only looked quickly at the section. Some points are still not clear to me, such as about the lay-person eating with the bhikkhus. I think it's all symbolic and actually is a suspension of the offering on the part of the lay-person." Han: I will also look further into this matter. By the way, when you said, Vinaya, Cv. V.20.3, are you referring to Culavagga Pali out of the five Vinaya Pali? Respectfully, Han #101093 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- On Mon, 5/10/09, han tun wrote: >Han: I will also look further into this matter. By the way, when you said, Vinaya, Cv. V.20.3, are you referring to Culavagga Pali out of the five Vinaya Pali? ... S: Yes, exactly. Cullavagga Pali, ch V "On Minor Matters", 20-3 (about half way through the chapter). Metta Sarah ========== #101094 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 9:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much. I will ask my grandson to send me the book from Yangon. It is not that I do not believe you, but I want to study more, not only on this topic, but other rules mentioned there also. Respectfully, Han #101095 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 10:39 pm Subject: Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? truth_aerator Hello all, "What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain" - MN 140 ""'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"" ""'It feels, it feels': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'feeling.' And what does it feel? It feels pleasure. It feels pain. It feels neither pleasure nor pain. 'It feels, it feels': Thus it is said to be 'feeling.'"" - MN43 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html They both seem to aware of pleasant, painful & neither pleasant-nor-painful. So what is the difference between Vinnana & Vedana in the case of pleasant, painful & neither pleasant-nor-painful sensation? With metta, Alex #101096 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 1:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: personal news and Dhamma. kenhowardau Hi Nina and Sarah, Sorry for disappearing for so long. I have been here all the time but just reading - silently. :-) --------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ken H and Sarah, > > Op 2-okt-2009, om 15:13 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > How about starting a Curmudgeon's Surfer diary here, reminding us > > along the way that really there's no Curmudgeon, no Surfer and no > > diary:-) > > > > Look forward to the first installment...Really! > ------ > N: If you do not mind to share your diary with others, I would like > to read it. Do not think it is unimportant, it is all daily life with > Dhamma. ------------------ The diary idea of a is a good one but not for me, thanks all the same. I am too shy. (Too much mana.) Perhaps someone else will take up the idea. Start each instalment with the maxim 'There is only the present moment' and see where it leads. I can guarantee it will lead to an intricate Abhidahmma technicality of one kind or another. And then to asking DSG for help. :-) Today, it led me back to a conversation I had been having with Jon. So I will return to that thread now with some new questions for him. Ken H #101097 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:03 am Subject: Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . kenhowardau Hi Jon, -------------------- > J: > Is it just "Dhamma trivia", then? ;-)) I don't think so. I would > > agree it > > doesn't have direct relevance for you or me to the development of > > satipatthana > > at this moment. But for other persons, or under other circumstances, it > > might. > > ------------------------ > > > > I am happy with that explanation. My confusion is temporarily > > suppressed. Lying dormant until next time the subject comes up. :-) > =============== > > OK, you'd like to drop it for now ;-)) ---------------------- Not for long, as it turns out. :-) It has occurred to me that if kamma-patha can be more than just a single moment (of cetana) then so too can vipakka. There is a sense, isn't there, in which we can say that (for example) being born into a wealthy family or in a peaceful country is kusala vipakka? Families and countries are just concepts, and DSG is normally wary of concepts. I am thinking, for example, of a famous conversation you had with Christine years ago. Christine was wondering what terrible deeds she must have done in former lifetimes to deserve being placed in an aeroplane next to screaming babies. :-) You pointed out that, actually, the objects of vipakka were momentary, audible (etc) phenomena, and any ideas of seat allocation and screaming babies were just concepts. (And therefore not objects of vipakka consciousness.) So I wonder now if you would like to qualify that. This reminds me of another thing I noticed at the Bangkok talks (in addition to the 'act of dana' bombshell). There was a public holiday and people on the streets were drenching passer-by's in water. We were all laughing about how some of us had copped a soaking while others were let off lightly with a mild sprinkling. K Sujin's comment was, "You see, different vipakka!" Not quite what you said to Christine! :-) Ken H #101098 From: "connie" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:33 am Subject: Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? nichiconn hi Alex, > what is the difference between Vinnana & Vedana in the case of pleasant, painful & neither pleasant-nor-painful sensation? Is that the word, vinnana, there in MN43? I suppose so. that knowing, not sanna or panna then. I think it's that vedana 'tastes raw feeling' but it takes other factors to fully inform citta. Maybe 'coordinate' is the word rather than inform, but flip a coin. peace, connie #101099 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks hantun1 Dear Sarah, I found the following text in Buddhist Monastic Code II Chapter 20 Disciplinary Transactions by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc2/bmc2.ch20.html -------------------- Overturning the bowl is a symbolic phrase signifying the refusal to accept offerings from a particular person. The origin story for this transaction is a variation on the origin story for Sg 8. The followers of Mettiya and Bhummaja incite Va.d.dha the Licchavi to accuse Ven. Dabba Mallaputta of having raped his wife. (They show no imagination at all and instruct him to phrase his accusation in the same terms they taught Mettiyaa Bhikkhunii in the story to Sg 8: "The quarter without dread, without harm, without danger, is (now) the quarter with dread, with harm, with danger. From where there was calm, there is (now) a storm-wind. The water, as it were, is ablaze. My wife has been raped by Master Dabba Mallaputta.") The Buddha convenes a meeting of the Community, at which Ven. Dabba (who attained arahantship at the age of seven) states truthfully that, "Ever since I was born, I am not aware of having engaged in sexual intercourse even in a dream, much less when awake." The Buddha then instructs the Community to overturn its bowl to Va.d.dha, so that none of the bhikkhus are to have communion with him. (This, according to the Commentary, means that none of the bhikkhus are to accept offerings from his household.) Ven. Ānanda, on his alms round the following day, stops off at Va.d.dha's house to inform him that the Community has overturned its bowl to him. On hearing this news, Va.d.dha collapses in a faint. When he recovers, he goes with his relatives to confess his wrong doing to the Buddha. The Buddha accepts his confession and tells the Community to turn its bowl upright for Va.d.dha, so that the bhikkhus may associate with him as before. The Community, if it wants to, may overturn its bowl to a lay person endowed with the following eight qualities: He/she strives for the bhikkhus' material loss, strives for the bhikkhus' detriment, strives for the bhikkhus' non-residence (i.e., so that they can't live in a certain place), insults and reviles bhikkhus, causes bhikkhus to split from bhikkhus; speaks in dispraise of the Buddha, speaks in dispraise of the Dhamma, speaks in dispraise of the Sa"ngha. The Commentary adds that a lay person who has done any one of these things qualifies to have the bowl overturned. There is no need for him/her to have done all eight. Unlike other disciplinary transactions (and unlike most Community transactions in general), the object of the transaction does not need to be present in the meeting at which the transaction is performed. This is apparently what the Commentary means when it says that the transaction may be performed within or without the territory. In other words, the lay person does not need to be in the same territory where the meeting is held. The procedure is this: The Community meets and agrees to the transaction statement, which (in a motion and proclamation) explains the lay person's wrong doing and announces that the Community is overturning its bowl to him/her, that there is to be no communion between him/her and the Community. (The word for communion, here as elsewhere, is sambhoga, which literally means "consuming together" or "sharing wealth." An interesting anthropological study could be written on the implications of this word's being used to describe a bhikkhu's accepting alms.) The Commentary adds that the Community should then inform other Communities that they, too, are not to accept alms or offerings from the household of the lay person in question. And, as the origin story shows, the lay person should be informed of the transaction. If the lay person mends his/her ways (in other words, stops doing the action for which the bowl was overturned in the first place and does not start doing any of the other actions that are grounds for overturning the bowl) the Community may then turn its bowl upright. The procedure here is that the person in question dresses respectfully, goes to the Community, bows down, and with hands palm-to-palm over the heart makes a formal request to have the bowl turned upright. The Commentary adds that the person should state the request three times and then leave the hatthapaasa of the Community's meeting while the transaction statement uprighting the bowl is recited, although there is nothing in the Canon to indicate that this last step is necessary. After the recitation, the bhikkhus may again accept offerings at the person's house. None of the texts mention this point, but the Community would seem honor bound to notify any of the other Communities who were informed of the bowl's original overturning that the bowl has now been set upright. -------------------- Han: Here, it is clear that the monks are overturning their bowls to the lay-person who has committed one of the eight conditions, and not that the lay-person's bowl is turned upside down. I.B. Horner's (PTS) translation of imposing non-eating with the Order might come from "sambhoga", which literally means "consuming together" or "sharing wealth." But it does not mean the lay-persons are eating together with the monks. It means that there is to be no communion between him/her and the Sangha Community, if he/she commits one of the eight conditions. I thank you once again for your looking for the references for me. Respectfully, Han #101100 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:41 am Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Hi Alberto, Thanks for this helpful explanation. Also, mention of spam has made me laugh - basically every time I start to overthink things, I'm in fact mentally spamming myself :)) Best wishes pt > Here is a simile which might help sorting nimitta out a bit, > The sense-door process would be the sender end in a fax communication session, and it would send a page, one of the seven visaya rpas (visible... tangible rpa) impinging on the corresponding pasada rpas (eye... body rpa). > As soon as the page/visaya rpa is sent it self-destroy itself, it falls away. > > The recipient would be the mind-door, bhavanga citta, via saa, and it would receive the fac-simile (as rpa nimitta, the shadow of a reality) of the original page which would be just as good as the original, which is no longer in existence. > After the first page is received (by the first mind-door process after a sense door one, with bhavanga cittas interposing), in which the received page corresponds to the page actually sent, many other pages (dhamma rammanas, objects of mind-door processes) would pile up one after the other, like spam, and, because of kilesa, defilements, each extra page would add something to the original, according to one's own accumulations; these pages/processes would also be nimitta, shadows, but not of a reality, since they differ from the original, hence concepts/pannatti. > > Alberto > #101101 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your replies on this topic. > S: Sorry, I forgot that 'sensitive matter' is a translation of pasaadaruupa, referring to the sense-bases, such as eye-sense. I'm just used to the Pali term here and wrote in haste. Thx for picking me up on it! > > Actually, it was an unintentionally 'trick' qu which I fell for. > colour or visible object is none of the above. It is gross matter or derived matter, but not sensitive or subtle matter. pt: Sorry, I didn't realize it was a trick question - I think it's evident now that I'm probably seriously confusing something here because I still can't properly understand what kind of arammana is the sankhara nimitta of the first mind-door process. So far, I got this far - please correct me if I'm wrong: 1. Sankhara nimitta of color (in our example) is not one of the six dhamma arammana - that's what I think you are saying above - but it is rupa nimitta (nimitta of gross or derived rupa). 2. In post #101063 you write: > S: As you say, the visible object has fallen away and strictly speaking, it is just the nimitta of that object. However, it is referred to in the texts as 'present object'. Awareness can be aware of the characterisitic of this 'present object' as the processes follow in such rapid succession. It is 'present object by way of Navattabba (Not so Classifiable) object'. It's the same when nibbana is reviewed by the paccavekana cittas immediately succeeding the lokuttara cittas. It's 'reality by way of navattabba'. pt: So, if I understand correctly, this sankhara nimitta of color cannot be classified as one of the six dhamma arammana because it is classifed by way of navattabba (i.e. it is not so classifiable)? 3. I thought so far that a mind-door process can have as arammana only the six dhamma arammana mentioned (sensitive and subtle matter, citta, cetasika, concept and nibbana). However, as you write in post #101064: > S: "But the object of consciousness [occurring] at the mind-door is of all six [senses], and present, past, future and free of time, as appropriate." > Commentary: " 'All six': all six, beginning with visible form, etc. Because Nibbaana and concepts do not perish, they cannot occur by way of past, etc., time, and so are called 'free of time'." > S: So here it's referring to objects experienced through the mind-door, beginning with visible object and including 'present'. Clearly these are not included in concepts as I read it. pt: So, do I understand this correctly that a mind-door process can have one of the six dhamma arammans as object, BUT, it can also have one of the 5 gross or subtle rupas as well, of all three times, as well? And if it's the 'present' one, then it's navattabba? Thanks, and apologies again for confusion. Best wishes pt #101102 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 5:53 am Subject: Re: Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks very much for your replies on this topic as well. Yep, I'm already checking UP on killing and kamma pathas section is also very interesting. > S: Many, many kinds of giving. Lots of detail is given in "A Treatise on the Paramis", in the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka which B.Bodhi has translated and included with his translation of the Brahmajala Sutta and commentaries (BPS): For those interested: B.Bodhi's translation of the Brahmajala sutta and commentaries is available in full on google books: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=6ym-vC4nTsAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+disc\ ourse+on+the+all&as_brr=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false Treatise on the paramis on its own i available also on ATI in html form: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html > S: Even when we're not discussing the Dhamma, we can speak kindly and gently, we can perform music or give a show, sharing and giving our voice as an artist shares and gives his art-work. As a teacher, I used to share my voice with my students. Of course, it always comes back to the cittas again, which are bound to be mixed, even when we're discussing the Dhamma. Thanks Sarah. Best wishes pt #101103 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Hi Jon, Thanks for your reply. Jon: > In the case of the actor we are talking about the intention to make others heedless to the way things are at the present moment. > > This does not apply in the case of the doctor or mortgage broker (even though the doctor may believe he can really cure illness). pt: Perhaps it would be useful for further discussion to define here what does "heedless to the way things are at the moment" mean? Would you equate it to the ultimate meaning of being aware of the presently arisen dhamma as dukkha, anicca and anatta? Or do you mean it in some other more conventional sense? Jon: > As I understand the explanations given in the texts, the encouraging or ordering would have to be much more direct that in the form of a play in order for it to be the same kamma patha as that performed by the other person. > > One possible example: A religious leader urges his followers to kill a particular person. Or something more direct than that. pt: Thanks, this is good to know. Best wishes pt \ #101104 From: "philofillet" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 12:23 am Subject: Re: Some Questions philofillet Hi Lukas How's it going? May I kindly request that you continue to reflect on the below and continue to patiently ask yourself if this is in line with the Buddha's teaching? >>Bhante Dhammadhara said, "dont mislead yourself, one moment of understanding in life and then akusalas all the time. Anything can happend in such akusala moments, we dont know." There is a tendency amoung A.S students to place great redemptive value on the moments of thinking about the conditioned nature of akusala in the midst of akusala. I haven't come across it anywhere else. Yes, of course, after we have done a bad deed, there is less remorse if we reflect on how conditioned that behaviour is, and how long the dhammas that condition it have been accumulated, and so on. And that is good, it conditions freedom from remorse, and remorse is akusala. But you'll find countless examples where the Buddha stirs up our resolve (or gives teachingings that may condition dhammas that give a sense of a situation that we call "stir up resolve" in conditional language) in order to help us avoid wrong deeds. ANd he never tells us that wrong deeds and the kammic impact of wrong deeds is negated or weakened by reflection on the anattaness of the dhammas involved.(Unless that is to be understood that freedom from remorse will condition a lower probability of commiting further immediate kamma as a kind of chain reaction of the previous bad deed.) I affectionately (oops, akusala) urge you to be careful about placing to much protective faith in those moments of reflecting abotu the conditioned nature of dhammas. It is just thinking, I doubt there is the kind of insight into that that represents real protection (there certainly isn't for me) so be careful about putting too much faith in the power of thinking about deep topics! It is best to do whatever is necessary to avoid bad deeds - plain and simple! When a harbour of wholesome behaviour has been established (of course there will always be holes in the shelter, because of the pervasive, deeply conditioned nbature of the akusala dhammas) there is safety for developing of deep understanding. But if thinking about deep teachings is said to provide the protection, we are more likely than not (the Dhamma uses probability, a simile of a toss of the dice, "a lucky throw" when taling about such matters) to be swept off into the woeful realms where cittas cannot be accompanied by panna, the re-emergence from which will be as rare as the simile I told you about before. I know this is falling on deaf ears becuase you are right into A.S now, as I was. But one of the many very good and useful things I learned about from here was that we have a duty to express our understanding to people whether we have any hope they will hear or not! That's all! Thanks, Lukas. I feel I have done my duty here! I'll probably be popping back once a month or so, as usual, to pester you! (affectionately...) Metta Phil #101105 From: Geri geri Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Questions sac9090 What are Mahajana texts? Did you mean Mahayana? --- On Sun, 10/4/09, Lukas wrote: <..> > I would like to ask if a husband allows his wife to have sex with another man (even bodhisattas give their wives and children to whoever asks it fromhim, > right?) L: depends on cittas. they can be kusala cittas when sharing wife or akusala cittas. When you take a Mahajana text's and start read different stories(I just heard some) about Bodhisattas, you'll see very clear that all depends on wheather cittas are kusala or not. There was mahajana story about Bidhisatta that allowed himself to be eaten by a tiger, becuase it was hunger. Another one is about bodhisatta that killed people, beacuase he was compasionate to them and knew some issues that made him to do this. This is all such a good remider. It all depends wheather cittas that perform actions are kusala or nor. That's in brief. <..> #101106 From: "Staisha Perry" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 3:25 am Subject: Re:[dsg] Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? staisha_perry Hello friends, well i think i would to know what "it" is and what "it" is not. How does one trully let go and know it as is and is not without violating truth and conventional realty ------Original Message------ From: truth_aerator To: Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 10:39:09 PM +0000 Subject: [dsg] Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? Hello all, "What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain" - MN 140 ""'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.'"" ""'It feels, it feels': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'feeling.' And what does it feel? It feels pleasure. It feels pain. It feels neither pleasure nor pain. 'It feels, it feels': Thus it is said to be 'feeling.'"" - MN43 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html <...> #101107 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:05 pm Subject: Re: Some Questions abhidhammika Dear Phil, Lukas, Nina, Howard, Alex, Freawaru, Robert K, Jon, Sarah, Mike N How have you been? Phil wrote: "It is best to do whatever is necessary to avoid bad deeds - plain and simple! When a harbour of wholesome behaviour has been established (of course there will always be holes in the shelter, because of the pervasive, deeply conditioned nature of the akusala dhammas) there is safety for developing of deep understanding." Yes, Phil, you are spot-on. Precisely because of the pervasive, deeply conditioned nature of the akusala dhammas as you wrote in the above paragraph, the Buddha instructed us to do whatever is necessary to avoid bad deeds everywhere in the Pali Tipi.taka. In more technical terms, your above transmission belongs to the fast-acting remedial approach to removal of the loomimg unwholesome actions. In Pali commentaries, this remedial removal approach is called tadangapahaana or tadangavinaya. Thus, the Buddha instructs us in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam to first remove covetousness and discontent (vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam) before undertaking recollection (or mindfulness) practice. The implication of this instruction is that you are unable to undertake recollection practice without temporarily removing covetousness and discontent first. In more common terms, with the instruction (vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam), the Buddha advised us to first observe moral precepts (siila) before or while concurrently undertaking recollection practice (satipat.t.haana). Keep up the good work, Phil! Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #101108 From: "connie" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:26 pm Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fours (48-49) nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing from: #100829 Fours (40-47) (cy: #100901, #100961) - CSCD < Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Some Questions szmicio Yes Phil, thanks for sharing your thoughts. That's nice. Best wishes Lukas > That's all! Thanks, Lukas. I feel I have done my duty here! I'll probably be popping back once a month or so, as usual, to pester you! (affectionately...) #101110 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 4:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Questions szmicio L:Actually I dont know. That's what I shared here is the second-hand story heard somewhere, long long ago. I deeply belife that I wasnt wrong and such Texts exist. ;> But you should ask someone from mahajana/wadzrajana. they surely say you something more on different stories, like drukpakunlej and tiger story(I belive there is such). The point is that what I wrote is just my private point of view. I dont know mahajana. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Geri geri wrote: > > What are Mahajana texts? Did you mean Mahayana? > #101111 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 5:02 pm Subject: Re: Some Questions szmicio Hi Suan and Phil, > Phil wrote: > > "It is best to do whatever is necessary to avoid bad deeds - plain and simple! When a harbour of wholesome behaviour has been established (of course there will always be holes in the shelter, because of the pervasive, deeply conditioned nature of the akusala dhammas) there is safety for developing of deep understanding." > >Suan: Yes, Phil, you are spot-on. Precisely because of the pervasive, deeply conditioned nature of the akusala dhammas as you wrote in the above paragraph, the Buddha instructed us to do whatever is necessary to avoid bad deeds everywhere in the Pali Tipi.taka. L: Are you sure Everywhere? There is also beautiful and deep Patthana. But you're right Buddha constantly making us to develop good deeds. Never saying akusala is good. But he saying: dhammas, just dhammas, akusala dhammas that can be known. > Suan: Thus, the Buddha instructs us in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam to first remove covetousness and discontent (vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam) before undertaking recollection (or mindfulness) practice. L: well I belive it's not like that. he dwells free from covetousness and discontent from the word of nama and ruupa?? I belive that was something like that, but I dont have a Texts now. And that means, that in moments of satipatthana dhammas are free from lobha and dosa and all of akusala. Buddha just pointing out realities. He knew that Kuru people had a particular accumulations to understand Dhamma. >Suan: The implication of this instruction is that you are unable to undertake recollection practice without temporarily removing covetousness and discontent first. L: Wow, who can? only panna can remove akusala dhamma. > In more common terms, with the instruction (vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam), the Buddha advised us to first observe moral precepts (siila) before or while concurrently undertaking recollection practice (satipat.t.haana). L: The siila may be first. Best wishes Lukas #101112 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 6:14 pm Subject: Re: Boycott by the monks moellerdieter Hi Han and Sarah, interesting to read in detail.. 'It means that there is to be no communion between him/her and the Sangha Community, if he/she commits one of the eight conditions' and so presents the Buddhist way to ' excommunicate ' lay followers , doesn't it? with Metta Dieter #101113 From: "Staisha Perry" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 2:34 pm Subject: Re:Re:[dsg] Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? staisha_perry How is ones citta able to be aware within conciousness, reality now at this moment. #101114 From: "colette" Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 5:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks ksheri3 Good Morning Sarah, is it symbolic that when the Buddha spoke those words and created this pasage that the Buddha was on a cell phone and speaking from some distant planet such as BEjing? So it is possible that "context" plays a part? Is it also possible that the Buddha was IGNORANT to cell phones or did the Buddha actually cognize the reality which we are dealing with today in that he, the Buddha, knew we would be speaking on cell phones (a phone-y existance, see ILLUSION, see the deity called MAYA)? What does it mean if the Buddha did not cognize our conditions TODAY? SHALL WE NOT TURN THE BUDDHA'S BEGGING BOWL UPSIDE DOWN SINCE THE BUDDHA DID NOT HAVE THE CONSCIOUSNESS TO REALIZE THAT PHONE-Y PEOPLE EXIST WITHIN THE MONESTARY? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: So it's symbolic - turning the lay-person's bowl upside down. Of course, the lay-person doesn't have a begging bowl. #101115 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 5, 2009 8:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Boycott by the monks hantun1 Dear Dieter (Sarah), > Dieter: 'It means that there is to be no communion between him/her and the Sangha Community, if he/she commits one of the eight conditions' and so presents the Buddhist way to 'excommunicate' lay followers, doesn't it? Han: I cannot say yes or no to your question, because I do not know what 'excommunication' means in Christianity. Perhaps, Sarah will be able to answer that. Kind regards, Han #101116 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 1:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ---------- <. . .> > > KH: Probably. Although my thinking has been so muddled I am not sure what I was saying. > > > S: :-) I think you're too modest - there are always interesting points behind your comments. I was just reading one of the extracts Han posted on bodily intimation. Now, we know from inference what bodily intimations are - gestures of the hands, facial expressions and so on to convey meanings. But actually, of course, only visible object is seen and the intimation is a subtle rupa without sabhava, as I recall. So we reflect on it all, but are never actually aware of the rupa. Rather like masculinity/femininity, but more subtle still. So, my muddled thinking is wondering if there's a similar point to the one about the act of dana or kamma patha. We make inferences based on the information we have - we cannot pin-point the exact cittas, but the very wise could. > ------------ Thanks very much for that. It's not easy, but even with my muddled thinking I can more or less see what you are getting at. Well, maybe I can't. I have just written down, and deleted, my new understanding of 'an act of dana' and it still doesn't make sense. :-) ----------------------- > > KH: I have had a similar problem before. For example, years ago, when we first met at Noosa, I asked you and Sarah about parents. The ancient texts tell us quite dogmatically that parents are wonderful: even if we "carry them on our shoulders for a thousand years (etc)" > > > S: As Jon mentioned, I don't think the texts are telling us they're wonderful. It's like individual members of the bhikkhu Sangha - all sorts. The respect is to the parents or the Sangha 'as a whole'. This way we don't dwell on the short-comings, but just consider what is worthy of appreciation when we have an opportunity. <. . .> Like with 'teacher' or 'Sangha', it is honouring those who have given us a great gift. Like with the respect to the Buddha, it's actually to the qualities that we pay respect, not a person. The respect to the Sangha is to qualities of the ariyan wisdom, not beings. The respect to the parents is to the qualities of nurturing and providing sustenance that brought us into this world and took care of us when young, for however short a period. ----------------------- You seem to be talking here about paying respect to kusala qualities, and I am sure that is what is meant in the texts. But it is also a matter of right understanding (of all namas and rupas), isn't it? After all, we are talking about the Dhamma. :-) Ultimately, all conditioned dhammas condition (nurture, provide for, give a great gift to) other dhammas. As we were both saying in an earlier conversation, a person with this kind of right understanding will know how to behave properly in any situation. Therefore, with R U, even an abused child will know how to behave respectfully to his parents. Even an abused wife will know how to treat her parent- in-law like gods. (Or however the customs of the day require her to treat them.) And it can still be the kind of respect that recognises (as you were saying) kusala qualities, because every momentary arising of the five khandhas contains at least *latent* kusala. --------------- <. . .> > > KH: > I am sure some people at the meeting would have been thinking "Won't that depend on cultural traditions and other circumstances? " But K Sujin was quite adamant. > > > S: I think the cultural traditions/circumstances will affect what is considered to be misconduct. It's the same with stealing or lying too. However, the principles are the same, don't you think? As usual, it's not the story or situation, but the cittas involved. ----------------- Yes, although that reminds me of one of my theories that you disallowed. :-) (That morality could not be taught without a knowledge of paramattha dhammas.) I'd like to get back to that some time, BTW. I still don't know the exact requirements for that kind of bhavana (mental development). Ken H. PS: Are you sure the text from the previous message, that I have left in, is displaying properly? On my computer there are often broken lines all over the place. I never know in advance how they will turn out. #101117 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 4:04 am Subject: Re:Re:[dsg] Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? ptaus1 Hi Staisha, I'll give a brief answer until someone more knowledgeable can reply. In abhidhamma terminology, every citta (moment of consciousness) arises together with various mental factors (cetasikas), dependent on conditions. Some of these mental factors are perception, contact, feeling, etc. There is also a mental factor of panna (translated as awareness, understanding, wisdom, etc). So, simply put, when mental factor of panna arises together with the citta, then one is "able to be aware within consciousness, reality now at this moment." Since panna is a wholesome (kusala) mental factor, that means that the citta would at that moment also have other wholesome mental factors like alobha (non-greed), adosa(non-hate), sati (mindfulness), etc. Best wishes pt --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Staisha Perry" wrote: > How is ones citta able to be aware within conciousness, reality now at this moment. #101118 From: "Staisha Perry" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 5:01 am Subject: Re:Re:Re:[dsg] Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? staisha_perry Thank you, this leads to the next question, would it be proper to say that conscious can be converted into panna as well, once the proper conditions arise #101119 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 5:51 am Subject: Reminder: salutations, trimming etc dsgmods Dear Friends, Just a couple of reminders: Salutations & sign-offs ........................ Please make it clear whom your post is addressed to (even if it's 'All'), and sign off at the end of every post (whether short or long) with your (preferably real) name which we can address you by. Trimming ........ When replying to another member’s post, please remember to delete any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply. Please also review the rest of the guidelines from time to time. They can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Many thanks for your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS As usual, any comments on this - off-list only. Thanks. #101120 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 6:37 am Subject: Re:Re:Re:[dsg] Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? ptaus1 Hi Staisha, > S: would it be proper to say that conscious can be converted into panna as well, once the proper conditions arise As far as I understand, that wouldn't be a correct technical statement because consciousness (citta) and panna mental factor (panna cetasika) are two different ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas). There are alltogether 4 ultimate realities - citta, cetasika, rupa (matter) and nibbana. So one kind of reality (dhamma) cannot be another kind of reality. What's important to keep in mind is that in every moment of life, there's some kind of citta happening at that moment. What kind of citta it is at the time will be determined by the conditions. There are alltogether 4 kinds of citta - wholesome, unwholesome, resultant and functional. Now, depending on the kind of the citta, certain mental factors (cetasikas) will arise together with that citta. Some mental factors (like contact, perception, feeling, etc) arise with all cittas, but most mental factors arise only with certain kinds of cittas. Panna (awareness) and sati (mindfulness) arise with wholesome cittas. Moha (delusion), lobha (greed) and dosa (hate) arise with unwholesome cittas. Further, each citta must have an object. So, consciousness cannot arise without an object, which can also be of different kinds. It can be a sense-object (color, sound, smell, taste, tactile) or it can be mental (sensitive matter, subtle matter, citta, cetasika, concept and nibbana). You'll notice that citta itself can be a mental object of citta (though this would necessarily have to be a past citta - regardless of whether that past citta happened a microsecond before or ages before the present citta). So, I think that what you were trying to say can be expressed in abhidhamma terms as follows: a past citta (regardless of whether it was wholesome or unwholesome) can become an object of a present wholesome citta that has panna, sati and other wholesome mental factors accompanying it at the present moment. Best wishes pt #101121 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 8:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? jonoabb Hi Alex (101045) > What someone or something does may influence one to have more lust (ex: porno movies, adult toys, suggestive images, jokes, objects, clothing etc), or hatred (movies, racist jokes, seeing someone's evil behaviour, etc) . > > This is why physical seclusion for some people with wisdom, and at some point in their development, may be very helpful and downright > necessary for further progress. > =============== When there is physical seclusion, the usual "distractions" are absent. But the seclusion does nothing to eradicate the underlying tendency that makes a particular sense-door object a "distraction". Physical seclusion may be recommended for those developing samatha at higher levels, but it was not recommended by the Buddha to his followers at large. =============== > No wonder the Buddha praised renunciation and also said this: > > "And what more is to be done? There is the case where a monk seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html =============== Here the Buddha is talking about a monk in whom samatha and vipassana are already sufficiently developed such that: (a) he lives happily in a secluded dwelling, and (b) he can sit down with body erect and bring mindfulness to the fore. He is not specifying a secluded dwelling etc for the likes of you and me ;-)) Jon #101122 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 8:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 6. jonoabb Hi Howard (101077) > Nina's point was that this secluded practice was practical only for > monks, who lead a suitable life, with just "getting by" being task enough for > householders. And I agree that at the time and place of the Buddha that > was indeed the case, but not so much today, especially in specific contexts. > I replied to Nina with << At the time of the Buddha, only monks had the > leisure for such practice. It is different now, especially in the "developed > countries" and especially for retirees. >>, my point being that nowadays, > and in special contexts, the practicality of secluded practice is also > available to lay persons, not only monks. And I do believe this is quite so. In > the developed nations today, and especially for retirees (and the idle rich > ;-)), there is a very large number of people for whom much of the harshness > of life that consumes all one's efforts just to survive is missing, > providing a degree of leisure to lay persons unheard of at the time of the > Buddha. =============== I take your point about retirees in developed nations not having to worry about their livelihood. But as regards the "practicality of secluded practice", I doubt this is what the Buddha was speaking of. He was in my view talking about a way of life rather than a limited term retreat as a break from a conventional lifestyle (monk's or lay follower's). The whole retreat thing is a relatively recent phenomenon, as far as I can tell. =============== > To my understanding, none of these considerations is of relevance even if > true. Human nature remains essentially the same, across all cultures and > through all ages, and the difficulty of obtaining liberation varies only > with the extent to which the teachings are extant (or, to put it another way, > with the extent to which right view is found). > ------------------------------------------------- > I also believe that human nature remains essentially the same. But > other conditions have changed. =============== Yes, some conditions have changed, but the question is whether in any respect that is material to the essence of the Buddha' message. On this matter I would say the most relevant change is that the texts are not as widely known or respected as previously. For example, many people reject a large part of the Tipitaka, preferring their own interpretation of selected parts of the Tipitaka only. Those people would no doubt say that the Tipitaka has become corrupted by later additions. Either way, the pure Buddha word is not as widely available or known as it was. Jon #101123 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 9:00 am Subject: Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . jonoabb Hi KenH (101097) > It has occurred to me that if > kamma-patha can be more than just a single moment (of cetana) then so > too can vipakka. =============== I'd put it this way: There is usually/always more than just a single moment of kamma/vipaka. The same would apply for just about any mental state really: metta, dosa, etc. I still don't see why this should come as anything "new" ;-)) =============== > There is a sense, isn't there, in which we can say that (for example) > being born into a wealthy family or in a peaceful country is kusala > vipakka? =============== Yes, we do say that in conventional speech. But in terms of the teachings this 'situation' would be one of the 8 worldly conditions (i.e., gain). The vipaka is the experiencing of pleasant/ unpleasant objects through the sense-doors. =============== > Families and countries are just concepts, and DSG is normally wary of > concepts. I am thinking, for example, of a famous conversation you had > with Christine years ago. Christine was wondering what terrible deeds > she must have done in former lifetimes to deserve being placed in an > aeroplane next to screaming babies. :-) You pointed out that, actually, > the objects of vipakka were momentary, audible (etc) phenomena, and any > ideas of seat allocation and screaming babies were just concepts. (And > therefore not objects of vipakka consciousness.) > > So I wonder now if you would like to qualify that. =============== Screaming babies (and the idea of being the one who had to be next to one!) are indeed just concepts. The reality in terms of paramattha dhammas are/include multiple moments of experiencing unpleasant sounds through the ear-door. =============== > This reminds me of another thing I noticed at the Bangkok talks (in > addition to the 'act of dana' bombshell). There was a public holiday > and people on the streets were drenching passer-by's in water. We were > all laughing about how some of us had copped a soaking while others were > let off lightly with a mild sprinkling. K Sujin's comment was, "You see, > different vipakka!" > > Not quite what you said to Christine! :-) =============== Right. It's normal to speak in those terms. But in paramattha dhamma terms, vipaka is the consciousness that experiences a dhamma through the sense-door; its not the situation. Jon #101124 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 9:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? jonoabb Hi pt (101103) > Jon: > > In the case of the actor we are talking about the intention to make others heedless to the way things are at the present moment. > > > > This does not apply in the case of the doctor or mortgage broker (even though the doctor may believe he can really cure illness). > > pt: > Perhaps it would be useful for further discussion to define here what does "heedless to the way things are at the moment" mean? Would you equate it to the ultimate meaning of being aware of the presently arisen dhamma as dukkha, anicca and anatta? Or do you mean it in some other more conventional sense? > =============== I don't really know ;-)) I think I mean that, in trying to get us absorbed in his story, the actor is (usually) doing the opposite to what a good friend would do. Something like that. But I readily admit I don't really know what the basis for the actor's unhappy destiny is. I might bring it up when we're in Bangkok next week. Could you refer me again to the passage you originally quoted? Thanks. Jon #101125 From: Geri geri Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Questions sac9090 JC: I don't get your answer. Surely by quoting Mahajana's texts you know what it is. ANd what's wadzrajana? #101126 From: "Staisha Perry" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 7:32 am Subject: Re:Re:Re:Re:[dsg] Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? staisha_perry Ok thank there is all of investigating here and truth, with metta,diligence & peace in the way thx again everyone #101127 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 11:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements at MN1 sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Alex), --- On Sat, 3/10/09, upasaka@... wrote: >>S: Whenever we take anything for a 'whole' or 'thing' in reality, such as a nail or a computer, then there's atta-view, no understanding of elements, such as pathavi-dhatu (earth element appearing as hardness/softness) at the moment of touch. ============ ========= ======= H:>Sarah, if you would enlarge the inventory of "things" conceived of with atta-view to include the so called paramattha dhammas - heat(s), hardness(es) , sights, sounds, tastes, odors etc, you and I would be on *exactly* the same page! .... S: Well, momentarily, be my guest "on *exactly* the same page:-) It's true that that di.t.thi (wrong view) can even arise in a sense-door process, when the sense objects are experienced, just as pa~n~naa can. However, leaving the "*exactly* the same page", pretty well all the atta-view that arises during the day and which we gradually become familiar with as such, arises in the mind-door processes with concepts as objects. So, especially all the gross di.t.thi, is with regard to taking ideas about sights, sounds and so on for 'something', for 'atta'. It is the "conceiving" (ma~n~nanaa), the grasping after signs and details with ignorance and wrong view which is the plight of the worldling as discussed in the Mulapariyaya Sutta. .... >Alex had written "The teaching that reduces external objects to mere feelings, sensations, cognitions, concepts, seems to border idealism of some sort." I would sooner say that it is a phenomenalism or radical empiricism, and it is very much my perspective. IMO, it *should* be yours as well. .... S: While I see merits in your phenomenalist perspective, I think it misses the full picture given by the Buddha. ... >Alex, OTOH, seems to be an objectivist who believes that we touch an actual thing called hair and experience a quality of it called earth element. I find that perspective to consist of a double dose of reification, reifying complexes of perceived qualities, and reifying the perceived qualities, whereas you only reify the perceived qualities. ... S: We're on the same page in dismissing the "actual thing called hair" view. But from now on, what you describe as my reifying "perceived qualities", seems to come down to the Nagarjuna wrong-turn "they're all concepts", no realities can therefore ever be directly known and we might as well be studying science or any other conventional subject because the development of satipatthana doesn't apply:-). ... >My perspective seems to be different from both of yours, and more radical (or "extreme," if you prefer). ... S: I'd call it more "off-base" and lacking confidence in the truths about the realities which can be known as the Buddha taught us. ... >As I see it, even the qualities/sensation s of hardness, warmth, sights, sounds, etc are only conventional entities, conceptually isolated aspects of the flow of experience erroneously viewed as separate "realities" but that are actually the result of mental construction that isolates mental snapshots of the gapless flow of experience and identifies similar (and often contiguous) ones. ... S: Just my point....:-)) Do you have any textual support from the Tipitaka or Pali commentaries for the following: "the qualities of hardness, warmth, sights, sounds, etc are only conventional entities"? Hardness experienced at this moment of touching a 'conventional entity"? Metta Sarah ========= #101128 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements at MN1 sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Sun, 4/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: >>S: I thought you were talking about 'solid things' such as nails and >hair as actually existing, even though you now agree that >softness/hardness is felt through the body-sense? A:> Do not conflate how the rupa is felt and how it is when it is not perceived. ... S: 'Hair' is not a rupa. Softness/hardness is a rupa. Whether it is experienced or not, that same rupa arises and falls away in a kalapa of rupas. There is no hair - there are just groups (kalapas) of rupas, separated by space. The rest is just our thinking. .... >The thing which we label in English "Hair" exists whether there is awareness of it or not. It may be experienced as a certain colour, certain degree of hardness/softneness to the touch, etc etc. ... S: Yes, colour, degree of hardness/softness and so on are experienced as you suggest. These are the realities. That's all there is in the material world, Alex - just groups of rupas arising and falling away regardless of what we call them or think about them. ... >I don't believe there is any difficulty to say that rupa kkhanda consists of great primary elements of earth, water, fire, and air located in space that can be cognized with consciousness. I understand that this is different from how you and some people view these things. ... S: Let's put it this way - all 28 rupas are rupa khandha. There is no 'whole' or 'basket' or 'solid thing/self' other than such rupas or physical elements. ... >Consciousness is formed by coming together of internal & external matter. There is no such thing as pure consciousness without any object. ... S: OK, seeing consciousness arises on account of the impact of visible object on the eye-sense. Every citta has an object. I don't know how this relates to the topic above, but it's fine:-) ... >Consciousness ALWAYS takes something as an object, even if the object is external mental idea. Pure consciousness cannot be, it would be unconsciousness. ... S: Has anyone suggested that consciousness ever arises without an object? Not me! Even when we refer to 'unconsciousness', consciousness is arising and experiencing an object. So, at least we finish on the same page, as Howard would say:-) Metta Sarah ====== #101129 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 11:39 am Subject: Re: Some Questions szmicio Dear JC, > JC: I don't get your answer. Surely by quoting Mahajana's texts you know what it is. ANd what's wadzrajana? L: Sorry for my not clear answer. Actually I dont know much about Mahayana Buddhism. But I still remember some mahajana stories, that I've heard from mahayanist. The one was about a tiger, who was starving and was about to die, when the bodisatta or buddha himself appeared in front of him, and out of compassion allowed the tiger to eat him. Few years ago, when I've heard this story, I was saying: what a stupidity. What the hell Buddha was thinking about. That's not the wisdom, to be eaten so easily ;> What the hell Buddha did. It wasnt reasonable. But now, when I am looking back, this story seems very wise. It remids me about different cittas in life, that condition our world and action. The word of compassion or anger. Everything. Also the intetion that arises with cittas are conditioned, so we cant choose. And Now I think that those Buddha's minds were great. your original question was whether some actions are kusala or not. The answer is it depends on conditions. The other story is about Bodhisatta that killed some people for their good. We would say that was wrong. But it shows only that it depends on whether citta is kusala or not. Vajrayana is tibetan buddhism. Best wishes Lukas #101130 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 10:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements at MN1 upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/6/2009 7:13:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: >My perspective seems to be different from both of yours, and more radical (or "extreme," if you prefer). ... S: I'd call it more "off-base" and lacking confidence in the truths about the realities which can be known as the Buddha taught us. -------------------------------------------------- LOLOL! ;-)) ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101131 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 3:00 pm Subject: Seclusion truth_aerator Hello Jon (and all) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (101045) > > What someone or something does may influence one to have more lust (ex: porno movies, adult toys, suggestive images, jokes, objects, clothing etc), or hatred (movies, racist jokes, seeing someone's evil behaviour, etc) . > > > > This is why physical seclusion for some people with wisdom, and at some point in their development, may be very helpful and downright > > necessary for further progress. > > =============== > > When there is physical seclusion, the usual "distractions" are >absent. Which makes it easier to develop tranquility and insight. Let us be clear, there are places more and less sutiable to develop Satipatthana. This is even stated in the sutta. > But the seclusion does nothing to eradicate the underlying tendency >that makes a particular sense-door object a "distraction". Correct. But the seclusion is more suitable place to develop panna and wholesome states that will eradicte the tendencies. I am not sure that most people can eradicate unwholesome qualities in a Strip Club, Adult Store, or busy and noisy marketplace. > > Physical seclusion may be recommended for those developing samatha at higher levels, but it was not recommended by the Buddha to his followers at large. > Samatha is a required aspect of the path. Samma-Samadhi is part of N8P, Jon. If N7P works for you, great! I am happy for you! With metta, Alex #101132 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Primary Elements at MN1 upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 10/6/2009 7:13:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Just my point....:-)) Do you have any textual support from the Tipitaka or Pali commentaries for the following: "the qualities of hardness, warmth, sights, sounds, etc are only conventional entities"? --------------------------------------------- No. Nor do I have any sutta support for impermanence being a staccato sequence of discrete freeze-frames. I view impermanence as nothing remaining as-is for any time at all. I view it as a constantly changing stream, with nothing graspable at all. I view namas and rupas as conceptually separated-off elements of that flow, with only conventional status as "things". ---------------------------------------------- Hardness experienced at this moment of touching a 'conventional entity"? -------------------------------------------------------- Huh? ========================== With metta, Howard Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) The Aggregates are Void /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #101133 From: "colette" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 7:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks, expansion of CONSCIOUSNESS ksheri3 Hi Group, I have been showed a PERFECT EXAMPLE, of the power of "MAGIK <...> I have just been shown that my former roommate is going to fight for his rights to the child that was produced by him and my other roommate. THIS IS MONUMENTAL! FOR INSTANCE: NOW, AT THIS TIME, MY FORMER ROOMMATE ACTUALLY CONSIDERS THAT THIS CHILD IS HIS AND HIS RESPONSIBILITY, THAT HIS GANG MEMBERSHIP IS WORTHLESS IN COMPARISON TO HIS RESPONSIBILITY TO THIS CHILD! I would like to think that I had a part in manifesting this consciousness in him. I was overjoyed when I heard him other those remarks to me that I am to relay to his other member and my other roommate. DON'T YOU SEE? I would love to believe that I have given this person, this lost individual, the consciousness to embark upon life knowning that life is such a struggle, such a weight that has to be dragged onward, that he now perceives it as something worthy of "FIGHTING FOR" and he intends upon fighting for this thing called LIFE by means of his son. I am so overjoyed that this happened. This child can now go forward knowing and relying upon the facts that he is not a singularity, that he is not a supposed "god", that his dad can and will help him to avoid those utterly stupid pitfalls which plague all children and give them a DESIRE to join a gang. YES, I am overwhellmed by the realization that my association, that my work with my former roommate, has shown profitable to our society. IT IS FACT AND NO PERSON CAN TAKE THIS FROM ME NOR TAKE THIS FROM HIM if he means it and if he intends to pursue his responsibility to the society in which he is a part of! He has made a change. He has modified his consciousness. TRUST ME, I know MAGIK. I know that when they, my former roommates brought home this baby whose eyes were still closed, when I whispered into his ear constantly: "all ya have to do is think REAL HARD about me and I will always be there", I can say that I know it's gonna work. Which "concept" shall we explore? I have put forth tons of concepts that are all extremely valuable here, and each, in their own turn, is worthy of an ABHIDHARMA ANALYSIS which will prove that my operations are good and verifiable. <...> toodles, colette #101134 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 8:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks, expansion of CONSCIOUSNESS scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding: c: "I have just been shown that my former roommate is going to fight for his rights to the child that was produced by him and my other roommate. THIS IS MONUMENTAL!...I would like to think that I had a part in manifesting this consciousness in him. I was overjoyed when I heard him other those remarks to me that I am to relay to his other member and my other roommate...I would love to believe that I have given this person, this lost individual, the consciousness to embark upon life knowning that life is such a struggle, such a weight that has to be dragged onward, that he now perceives it as something worthy of "FIGHTING FOR" and he intends upon fighting for this thing called LIFE by means of his son. I am so overjoyed that this happened..." Scott: Cool. I'm very happy to read of your kindness to your former roommate. I think you helped him out. I'm glad to read of the mettaa which arose in you. Sincerely, Scott. #101135 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 2:12 am Subject: Re: Some Questions philofillet Hi again Lukas Thanks for your understanding and patience shown below. If I were in your shoes, I might find it rather creepy or uncomfortable to have a stranger pestering me with posts about morality. Please don't take it to mean that I think you are a grave sinner bound for hellfire etc, it's just that some of the things you have posted rang alarm bells for me. I just want to post one more pair of sutta references for you to think about, then I will bugger off. I remember that you are fond of SN1:1, the sutta about how the Buddha crossed the stream, by neither standing still (which leads to sinking) or trying to force his way ahead, which leads to one being swept away. You find the 3rd and deeply wise "by neither standing still nor pushing ahead(?)" choice (not a choice actually, it happens in line with panna and other wholesome factors developing to the degree of great ariyan accomplishment) the most attractive, as anyone would. But we should remember that this is the Buddha's description of how he crossed the stream, if we become attracted to it and seek (however subtly) to make it happen in our minds, it will just be attachment to progress and trying to make deep things happen. Please contrast it with another sutta, that I am sure you have been shown by others here, but bears repeated posting. It is the other one about crossing the stream, much more immediately relevant to people such as us (or dhammas at work through "people" such as us, if your prefer.) "Of what nature is the person who goes with the stream? It is one who inedulges his sensual desire and commits wrong deeds. Of what nature is the one who goes against the stream? It is one who does not indulge sensual desire and commit wrong deeds. He lives the holy life, though in painful struggle, with difficult, sighing and in tears." I was left with the impression (from listening to A.S and Ven. Dhammadaro and group talks) that in the A.S approach, there is a rejection of any kind of "trying", that if one tries it is all about self trying etc, and it cannot be wholesome. I remember once when A.S actually laughed at the notion that the "clenching of the teeth" that is referred to in MN 19 (20? I can never remember which) as the 5th, last resort way of removing distracting thoughts could possibly be kusala. "Clenching the teeth? Kusala?" she said, laughing at the thought. You see, this demonstrates a warped approach to weakening the pwoer of the gross defilements. There is such a strong emphasis on kusala as defined by Abhidhamma, which is so very refined and rarefied, that a more common-sense understanding that wholesomeness *can* be developed even when there is clinging to self and self-need or technically akusala (as defined by Abhidhamma) things such as painful struggle. So if you only listen to A.S and her followers, you will be led to believe that any kind of trying that is not the momentry arising of kusala virya and other wholesome factors accompanying (and such an arising is very rare) is to be avoided! I think this is dangerous, could lead one to indulge in sensual desire in ways that just add to the fire of greed, hatred and delusion that are raging. And here I mean indulging in subtle ways, such as allowing the mind to run along in various delicious fancies, for example, or idly ogling women, for example, in the belief that there can be moments of kusala in there, panna about the anattaness of the ogling, for example, the deeply conditioned nature etc. And so the lazy (and mere I mean momentary laziness occuring again and again and again) indulging goes on and on, lazily, a lazily river of getting what the senses want because one of the attachments at work is the attachment to the notion of panna that makes it all ok....It is tough to cut the ogling off immediately, very tough, and sometimes it doesn't happen and there is ogling. But those tough moments of cutting off accumulate and gain power and wholesome habits come to accumulate. I am rambling again. Anyways, at least please reflect on the two passages about crossing the stream, and ask yourself honestly which one applies to people like us, who are not the Buddha nor anywhere near the Buddha in a way that would mean the SN 1:1 kind of glorious, ariyan crossing of the stream. OK Lukas, maybe that will do it!Thanks again. Metta, Phil p.s There are so many more sutta teachings I would like to throw at you, Lukas. I hope you are reading suttas too? Usually your posts only contain references to what Ven Dhammadaro has said, they sound like A.S talks reworded, always. I would be encouraged if more sutta references appeared in your posts, but I imagine that you are of the thought that suttas cannot be understood without analysis of complex commentaries, that worldlings in this day and age cannot understand suttas because they were spoken to people of higher understanding etc etc. I used to say that, and I think it is true that people in this day and age are overconfident about their ability to fathom suttas, but some (especially those that the Buddha addressed to householders) are easier to understand correctly than others. Please keep reading them! #101136 From: "philofillet" Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 2:14 am Subject: Re: Some Questions philofillet Dear Suan Thank you for the words of encouragement and for providing some very thoroughly laid out backup for my words to Lukas. I look forward to discussing more with you someday, when I come back to the internet. I have many questions to ask you, but not now. Metta, Phil > > Keep up the good work, Phil! > > Best wishes, > > Suan Lu Zaw > #101137 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 3:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Hi Jon, Jon: > I might bring it up when we're in Bangkok next week. Could you refer me again to the passage you originally quoted? Thanks. Sure, the passage is from the actor sutta SN 42.2: Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor - himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless - with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb. translation from ATI: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.002.than.html To quickly summarise the issues: - the main part in question is "having made others intoxicated & heedless" - does it refer to making others heedless of ultimate realities, or conventional matters? - how is acting different from all other occupations which also draw attention to conventional matters, not ultimate realities? - if there are no kamma pathas committed on either side (actor and audience), does the actor bear any kammic responsibility for the medium level greed and hate arising in the audience during the performance? Thanks. Best wishes pt #101138 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Oct 6, 2009 11:05 pm Subject: The 16 Supra-Human Roots! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What are the 16 roots of Imperturbable Peace? 1: The un-depressed mind is not perturbed by apathy, thus it is unperturbed. 2: The un-excited mind is not perturbed by agitation, thus it is unperturbed. 3: The un-attracted mind is not perturbed by desire, thus it is unperturbed. 4: The un-opposed mind is not perturbed by anger, thus it is unperturbed. 5: The self-reliant mind is not perturbed by opinions, thus it is unperturbed. 6: The un-involved mind is not perturbed by desire-to-do, thus it is unperturbed. 7: The released mind is not perturbed by lust for sensing, thus it is unperturbed. 8: The un-associated mind is not perturbed by clinging, thus it is unperturbed. 9: The un-blocked mind is not perturbed by obstructions, thus it is unperturbed. 10: The unified mind is not perturbed by diverse varieties, thus it is unperturbed. 11: The mind reinforced by faith is not perturbed by doubt, thus it is unperturbed. 12: The enthusiastic keen mind is not perturbed by laziness, thus it is unperturbed. 13: The acutely aware mind is not perturbed by negligence, thus it is unperturbed. 14: The concentrated mind is not perturbed by distraction, thus it is unperturbed. 15: The understanding mind is not perturbed by ignorance, thus it is unperturbed. 16: The illuminated mind is not perturbed by blind darkness, thus it is unperturbed. These sixteen roots of success lead to the obtaining of super-human power and to the fearlessness of one enjoying the success of supra-human force... Source: S ariputta, in: The Path of Discrimination: Patidasambhidamagga II 206 <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <..> #101139 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 5:34 am Subject: Re: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas hantun1 Dear Sarah (Nina, Chew), Regarding whether the three bhuumis or three dhaatus are the planes of existence or the planes of cittas, I had requested for the advice by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, and the following is his reply. -------------------- I just checked the commentary to the Anusaya Yamaka. The commentary to this chapter, to para. 2, reads: 2. Idaani tesa.m uppatti.t.thaana.m pakaasetu.m kattha kaamaraagaanusayo anusetiiti-aadimaaha. Tattha kaamadhaatuyaa dviisu vedanaasuuti kaamaavacarabhuumiya.m sukhaaya ca upekkhaaya caa dviisu vedanaasu. The use of the expression kaamaavacarabhuumiya.m suggests to me that what is intended (also in the following paragraphs) is planes of citta, not planes of existence. The word 'avacara' is, to my knowledge, connected to types of citta and not to realms of existence, in the way I explained in the Guide to "Comprehensive Manual." -------------------- Respectfully, Han #101140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 7:42 am Subject: Re: dsg] Latent Tendencies, Anusaya Yamaka. nilovg Dear Han, Chew, pt,et all, Quite right. I came across passages of the co. to the Anusaya Yamaka, and this explains the same. For example: Just as the Buddha explained: The latent tendency of aversion pertains to the other dhammas such as rpa, but it does not pertain to rpvacara dhammas and arpvacara dhammas which belong to their (respective) planes, and the nine lokuttara dhammas. As we read in the Commentary, the gist of this is contained in his teaching when he said: The latent tendency of aversion does not pertain to the two feelings accompanying the cittas of the sense sphere, to rpa- dhtu (rpa-jhna) and so on. Anyway, we often come across to these planes of citta in the commentaries. Quote from my A.D.L.: Plane of existence is the place or world where one is born. Plane of existence is not the same as plane of citta. There are different planes of citta depending on the object (rammaa) the citta experiences. There are four different planes of citta which are the following: 1 kmvacara cittas (sensuous plane of citta or kma-bhmi) 2 rpvacara cittas (plane of rpa-jhnacittas) 3 arpvacara cittas (plane of arpa-jhnacittas) 4 lokuttara cittas (plane of supramundane cittas experiencing nibbna) --------- Han, I can send you off line the Pali of the Commentary. This is the same as your Burmese text. The Thai study I translated uses parts of this co. I shall post now little bits at a time, so that we can discuss it. Pt, thanks for your Q. and most of it will become clearer in the course of our study. I try to answer some of your q. shortly. Nina. Op 7-okt-2009, om 7:34 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > The use of the expression kaamaavacarabhuumiya.m suggests to me > that what is intended (also in the following paragraphs) is planes > of citta, not planes of existence. The word 'avacara' is, to my > knowledge, connected to types of citta and not to realms of > existence, in the way I explained in the Guide to "Comprehensive > Manual." > -------------------- #101141 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 7:58 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, The third noble Truth, the cessation of suffering, is nibbna. The Buddha experienced at his enlightenment nibbna. It is difficult to understand what nibbna is. Nibbna (more popularly known in its Sanskrit form of nirva) is not a place such as heaven or a paradise where one enjoys eternal bliss. There are heavenly planes, according to the Buddhist teachings, where one can be reborn as a result of a good deed, but existence in such planes is not forever. After ones lifespan in such a plane is ended there will be rebirth in other planes, and thus there is no end to suffering. Nibbna is only an object of speculation so long as it has not been realized. It can be realized when there is full understanding of all phenomena of life which arise because of their own conditions and then fall away. The conditioned phenomena of life are, because of their impermanence, unsatisfactory or suffering. Nibbna is the unconditioned reality, it does not arise and fall away and therefore it is not suffering, it is the end of suffering. Nibbna is real, it is a reality which can be experienced, but we cannot grasp what an unconditioned reality is when we have not realized the truth of conditioned realities. Nibbna is not a God, it is not a person or a self. Since negative terms are used to express what nibbna is, such as the end of rebirth, it may be felt that Buddhism propagates a negative attitude towards life. However, this is not the case. It has to be understood that rebirth is suffering and that nibbna is the end of suffering. Nibbna is freedom from all defilements, and since defilements are the cause of all unhappiness nibbna should be called the highest goal. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Part IV, Chapter 38, 1, Nibbna) that the wanderer Rose-apple-eater came to see the Buddhas disciple Sriputta and asked him what nibbna was. Sriputta answered: The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of illusion, friend, is called nibbna. Extinction and freedom from desire are meanings of the word nibbna. Nibbna means the end of clinging to existence and thus it is deliverance from all future birth, old age, sickness and death, from all suffering which is inherent in the conditioned realities of life. ****** Nina. #101142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 8:39 am Subject: the present moment, to Ken H. nilovg Ken H: Ken: The diary idea of a is a good one but not for me, thanks all the same. I am too shy. (Too much mana.) Perhaps someone else will take up the idea. Start each instalment with the maxim 'There is only the present moment' and see where it leads. I can guarantee it will lead to an intricate Abhidahmma technicality of one kind or another. And then to asking DSG for help. :-) --------- Dear Ken H, 'There is only the present moment'. We can say this, but the present moment has to be studied with awareness. Only in that way will we understand the deep meaning of anattaa. Naama and ruupa appear one at a time and they have to be 'studied' with mindfulness, without naming them, by just becoming more familiar with their different natures: naama knows, ruupa does not know. Perhaps we are used to name them, to think of different classifications, but we have to understand that thinking is not awareness. If we listen more there can be conditions to let go of naming realities. We study the Dhamma, for example, in the Sangiiti corner or the Yamaka corner, but, as Kh Sujin stresses again and again: remember the goal of all our study, namely, to understand the anattaness of all dhammas. Understanding more conditions for the nama and rupa that arise will be helpful to see them as non-self. Take the Anusaya (Latent tendencies) Yamaka study: we react to the objects we experience in daily life in different ways. Many kinds of akusala are bound to arise. Not a self makes them arise or can prevent them from arising, they are conditioned by the latent tendencies. Studiying more details is useful, in order to have a deeper understanding of anattaa. Ken, you said that maana conditions your shyness. Maana is a latent tendency. It is not your shyness, and gradually you will understand that it is an insignificant reality, completely unimportant. It is only a moment of thinking and then gone. Understanding the present moment can solve many problems. I was reading to Lodewijk this morning from 'The World in the Buddhist Sense": < There is no idea of self who realizes nma as nma and rpa as rpa, but it is pa which realizes this. How could pa directly know conditions for nma and rpa when the difference between these realities has not been discerned yet? This would be impossible. Do seeing and visible object not seem to appear at the same time? Do hearing and sound not seem to appear at the same time? Do seeing and hearing not seem to appear at the same time? Is there an idea of the whole body? Dont we join all realities together into a whole? Is there not the whole of the world, the whole of a being, the whole of our personality? Is there an idea of self who is aware? We still have to study, to be aware of different realities, to discern their different characteristics. We have to learn such a great deal before the first stage of insight can arise. We dont even know whether it can arise during this life, that depends on understanding which has been accumulated, also in past lives.> Lodewijk becomes discouraged when he hears such things. I explained to him that there is only the present moment. What is it? It may be thinking with aversion. Just a dhamma. Without understanding we cling to an idea of self who cannot attain, who will never make it, a self who wants to reach a stage of wisdom. By studying the present reality understanding can grow. That is the answer to all our doubts, to all our discouragement. -------- Now, Ken, it is your turn. I am not going to write a diary all by myself. Only if you also take a turn. Nina. #101143 From: "sprlrt" Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 8:51 am Subject: Objects, doors and visaya rupas sprlrt Hi, The objects/rammanas, the dhammas concerning which nama-dhammas (citta & cetasikas) arise, can be classified in various ways. The sixfold division, visible/rpa, ... tangible/photthabba, and (whatever other) dhamma rammana lists them all, including concepts/paatti and nibbana. The doors/dvra, the media through which a process/vithi of cittas (& cetasika) dhammas acquire its object, are also six. The first five, the sense-doors (eye/cakkhu,... body/kya pasda, internal rpa), are impinged upon by the corresponding external 7 visaya rpas (vanno/visible form,... pathavi, tejo, and vayo / hardness, temperature, and motion - these last three rpas impinging on the body-sense) only. The eye-sense can only be the door for vanno rpa to knock upon,... the body-sense only for hardness, temperature, or motion. These 7 guests knocking at their appropriate sense-door bring a present along, the five-sense objects/rammanas (visible,... tangible object) for the king (the seven javana cittas arising in a sense process). (DhsA metaphor) But the guest, the external rpa, visaya, isn't allowed in, it can only knock and, after the deaf door-man, the appropriate paca-viana citta (eye,... body consciousness) opens the door, having been signalled to do so by the adverting/avajjana citta, the king's attendant massaging his feet, deliver the present, the object of that process of cittas, to the sampaticchana/receiving citta, the first of the three king's guards, who then passes the present to the second, santirana/investigating, who then gives it to the third, votthabbana, determining, and finally to the king, who alone can partake of the object. These five sense objects (visible,... tangible object) are acquired through the sixth, the mind-door (bhavanga citta/life continuum) as well, in processes of cittas based on that door, and whithout there being any physical impingement/knocking between internal and external rpas (bhavanga citta, the mind-door, being a nma and not a rpa dhamma like the five sense-doors). As well as the door for acquiring the sixth class of objects, and which includes whatever other dhamma (other than the five-sense objects). Alberto #101144 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 9:07 am Subject: Re: the present moment, to Ken H. gazita2002 hallo KenH, Nina and others, 'there is only the present moment' - to be sure, to be sure! and whatever occurs in this present moment is not me, or mine or myself but fleeting realities - cittas, cetasikas, rupas. Was reading SPD this morning and it occured to me what a strange and pointless world 'we' live in. Most of us are doing stuff all day long and most of it is akusala. But what to do about that...... just continue to remind each other that there really is 'only the present moment'.. know the akusala for what it is, fleeting, not self and most unsatisfactory. patience, courage and good cheer, azita #101145 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 9:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: dsg] Latent Tendencies, Anusaya Yamaka. hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: Plane of existence is the place or world where one is born. Plane of existence is not the same as plane of citta. There are different planes of citta depending on the object (rammaa) the citta experiences. There are four different planes of citta which are the following: Han: Thank you very much for your further clarification. -------------------- Nina: Han, I can send you off line the Pali of the Commentary. This is the same as your Burmese text. The Thai study I translated uses parts of this co. I shall post now little bits at a time, so that we can discuss it. Han: Yes, I will be very grateful if you would kindly send me the Pali of the Commentary off-line. Respectfully, Han #101146 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 12:39 pm Subject: Re: Some Questions abhidhammika Dear Phil, Howard, Alex, Freawaru, Nina, Lukas, Jon, Robert K, Sarah, Mike N, Chris F How are you? You wrote: "I look forward to discussing more with you someday, when I come back to the internet. I have many questions to ask you, but not now." You are welcome, Phil. I will certainly try my best to answer them. The only thing is that my answers may come slowly, though. I have been undertaking intensive meditation using Aanapaana (inhalation and exhalation) this year 2009. This practice has been progressing deeper and deeper now. I also would like to thank you as well as James, Howard and Alex for drawing my attention to K Sujin's idiosyncratic one-dimensional representations of the Buddha's teachings. The formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa are to be preserved as the Buddha originally taught, regardless of whether one can undertake them fully or not. Put it another way, it is our responsibility to make effort and sacrifices to raise our existential level to the standards set by the Buddha and the Arahants on a crane principle. On the other hand, reducing the standards set by the Buddha and the Arahants to our imperfect casual feeble levels is nothing more than vulgarization of Theravada teachings, sadly the phenomenon with its beginnings in the degradation agenda of Mahasanghikas (Majority Groupers). Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #101147 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 1:39 pm Subject: Re: Some Questions abhidhammika Dear Lukas, Phil, Howard, Alex, Freawaru, Nina, Jon, Robert K, Sarah, Mike N, Chris F How are you? When I wrote the following: "Thus, the Buddha instructs us in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam to first remove covetousness and discontent (vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam) before undertaking recollection (or mindfulness) practice." Lukas replied: "well I belive it's not like that. he dwells free from covetousness and discontent from the word of nama and ruupa?? I belive that was something like that, but I dont have a Texts now." Lukas, the Pali term 'vineyya' in the expression (vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam) comes from the Pali verb 'vineti'. Please see the following definition of 'vineti' from Pali Text Society dictionary. _______________________________________ Vineti [vi+neti; cp. vinaya] 1. to remove, put away, give up. -- ppr. vinayaŋ J vi.499; Pot. 3rd sg. vinayetha Sn 361, & vineyya Sn 590; imper. vinaya Sn 1098, & vinayassu Sn 559. -- ger. vineyya Sn 58 _____________________________________________ Did you see the terms, 1. to remove, put away, give up? So the Buddha did instruct us in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam to first remove covetousness and discontent (vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam) before undertaking recollection (or mindfulness) practice. "Vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam" means in English "by removing covetousness and discontent in the world". When I wrote the following: "The implication of this instruction is that you are unable to undertake recollection practice without temporarily removing covetousness and discontent first." Lukas wrote: "Wow, who can? only panna can remove akusala dhamma." Of course, paaa can remove unwholesome dhammas. But, paaa is not the only thing that can do the job. Siila can also remove them. Samatha can also remove them. Read and read and read the Buddha's teachings such as Saamaaphala Suttam. When I wrote: "In more common terms, with the instruction (vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam), the Buddha advised us to first observe moral precepts (siila) before or while concurrently undertaking recollection practice (satipat.t.haana)" Lukas wrote: "The siila may be first." Yes, Lukas, you got it right this time. Yes, siila is first. Yes, samatha is second. Without siila, there is no samatha. And, yes, paaa or sammaadi.t.thi will come later. Without samatha, there is no paaa, no sammaadi.t.thi, no right view, no right understanding. Congratulation, Lukas! You now have the right view on siila, moral precepts. You have made promising progress! Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #101148 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 2:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Latent Tendencies, Anusaya Yamaka. nilovg Dear Han, I read somewhere that piya ruupa, sata ruupa does not refer only to ruupa, but also to naama. Can you remember? This question relates to the first anusaya, where it is said that the latent tendency of sensuous desire adheres to pleasant objects. Nina. #101149 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 2:13 pm Subject: Q. pt: Anusayas. nilovg Dear pt, sorry for the delay, I am just back. ------- pt: 1. In ACM, anusayas are reduced to six cetasikas: "Both sensual lust and attachmnt to existence are modes of greed; the others are each distinct cetasikas. Thus altogether six cetasikas function as anusayas."(page 268, par 9, BB edition) Why does Bhikkhu Bodhi call them "cetasikas" if they never arise with the citta as you say? -------- N: They are realities, not self. What are they? Among the four ultimate realities of citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbaana, they are cetasikas. They condition the arising of akusala cittas. They have not been eradicated, they lie dormant in each citta. We will come back to this: three levels of kilesas, defilements: the coarse ones are the transgressions, the medium ones, pariyutthaana kilesa, arise with akusala citta, and then the subtle ones are the latent tendencies. --------- pt: 2. Considering conditionality - there are conditioning dhammas, conditioned dhammas and conditioning forces (the 24 conditions as I understand). Anusaya to me sound much closer to a conditioning force. Like kamma and vipaka conditions - I was struggling to understand how does kamma work and where it is stored, until I read about kamma and vipaka conditions - since these are forces, there's no need for kamma to be stored anywhere physically, but is simply transferred from citta to citta as conditioning forces of kamma and vipaka conditions. So, anusaya also seem to me very much like a conditioning force - are there any particular conditions out of the 24 that correspond with anusayas? ------ N: yes, pakatupanissaya paccaya, natural strong dependence-condition. The anusayas are called subtle defilements since they do not arise, but they are strong, we should not underestimate their force. Why can we quite suddenly be very angry? Akusala citta can arise so unexpectantly. When you say kamma-condition we have to remember: kamma conditions vipaaka later on. As to vipaaka-condition: the vipaaka-citta and cetasikas condition one another by being together vipaaka. It is a very quiet condiiton, no action. Just result. --------- pt; 3. A few times in UP it was said that anusayas are accumulated even during kusala cittas. I don't understand how is this possible and how it happens? Does "accumulated" mean they get stronger, or simply transfered from one citta to another? ------ N: The latter. We come back to this. --------- pt: 4. Regarding the anusaya of attachment to becoming (existence) - does it only refer to desiring heavenly rebirth, or it also refers to wanting to be a rich man, to be successful, to have a better job, to be a better man, etc - i.e. to be different than what one is at the moment? ------- N: It is just clinging to rebirth. Don't we cling to life and want to be reborn? As to being successful, etc. this is conditioned by kaamaraaganusaya, clinging to pleasant objects. ------- Nina. #101150 From: "colette" Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks, expansion of CONSCIOUSNESS ksheri3 Thanks for your approval but you fail to cognize that this has been my behavior since 1978 which is verifiable and obvious. You are suggesting that you only cognized it now and after the First WArd of Chicago hooked me up with these people. you've got a lot of catching up to do, my behavior is a few decades old which is why I have such a strong consciousness with the LOGOS, with the COSMOS, with Adam Kadmon, with the TRIKAYA, with this bullshit that the christians blasphemy called the Father, Son, Holy Ghost, etc, etc, etc. it's good that you finally woke up and smelled the coffee. toodles, colettte --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > Scott: Cool. I'm very happy to read of your kindness to your former roommate. I think you helped him out. I'm glad to read of the mettaa which arose in you. > #101151 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 10:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. Latent Tendencies, Anusaya Yamaka. hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: I read somewhere that piya ruupa, sata ruupa does not refer only to ruupa, but also to naama. Can you remember? This question relates to the first anusaya, where it is said that the latent tendency of sensuous desire adheres to pleasant objects. ---------- Han: I found piya ruupa, sata ruupa in Khandha Yamaka, in paragraphs 27 and 28 of the Pali text. I do not know whether it is exactly what you are looking for. I print below the beginning portions of para 27 and para 28. For the full text, please click on the following: http://khandhayamaka.blogspot.com/ and then click on "Download E-Book!" on the right-side column. I got all these from Study Reports by Chew. -------------------- [27/211] Pali Text: Na ruupa na ruupakkhandhoti? aamantaa. Na ruupakkhandho na ruupanti? Piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m na ruupakkhandho, ruupa.m. Ruupa~nca ruupakkhandha~nca .thapetvaa avasesaa na ceva ruupa.m na ca ruupakkhandho. [Han: It continues with other naama aggregates] Translation: (i) Q. Is it which is not called "ruupa" not called "aggregate of matter"? A. Yes. Q. Is it which is not called "aggregate of matter" not called "ruupa"? A. Lovable-ruupa and pleasant-ruupa are not called "aggregate of matter", but called "ruupa". With the exception of ruupa and matter aggregate, the remainings are neither called "ruupa" nor "aggregate of matter". Guide: If it is not called "ruupa", then it is definitely not called "aggregate of matter". So, the answer is "Yes". "With the exception of ruupa and matter aggregate": ruupa and aggregate of matter are 28 matters, 81 mundane consciousness and its associated 52 mental factors. "The remainings are neither called "ruupa" nor "aggregate of matter": the remainings are 8 supramundane consciousness and it’s associated 36 mental factors, Nibbaana, and concept. -------------------- [28/211] Pali Text: Ruupa.m ruupakkhandhoti? Piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m ruupa.m, na ruupakkhandho. Ruupakkhandho ruupa~bnceva ruupakkhandho ca. Khandhaa vedanaakkhandhoti? Vedanaakkhandho khandho ceva vedanaakkhandho ca. Avasesaa khandhaa na vedanaakkhandho. [Han: It continues with other naama aggregates] Translation: (i) Q. Is it which is called "ruupa" called "aggregate of matter"? A. Lovable-ruupa and pleasant-ruupa are called "ruupa", but not called aggregate of matter. Aggregate of matter is both called "ruupa" and "aggregate of matter". Q. Is it which is called "aggregates" called "aggregate of feeling"? A. The aggregate of feeling is both called "aggregate" and "aggregate of feeling". The remainings are called "aggregates", but not called "aggregate of feeling". Guide: Ruupa are lovable-ruupa, pleasant-ruupa, and the aggregate of matter. Lovable-ruupa and pleasant-ruupa are 81 mundane consciousness and its associated 52 mental factors. They are called "ruupa". The aggregate of matter is 28 matters. It is ruupa. The aggregate of feeling is feeling mental factor. It is one of the aggregates. Aggregates are five aggregates. "The remainings are aggregates" refers to aggregate of matter, aggregate of perception, aggregate of mental formation, and aggregate of consciousness. They are not called aggregate of feeling. -------------------- Respectfully, Han #101152 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 10:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks, expansion of CONSCIOUSNESS scottduncan2 Dear colette, Regarding: c: "Thanks for your approval...it's good that you finally woke up and smelled the coffee." Scott: I agree! Thanks, colette. Sincerely, Scott. #101153 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 12:57 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (57) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech (last installment for this chapter) Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ As we have seen in the definitions of the two kinds of intimation by the "Dhammasanga.nii" (§ 636, 637), these two kinds of ruupa can be conditioned by kusala citta, akusala citta or "inoperative" citta (kiriyacitta). When we realize that intimation through body and speech is very often conditioned by akusala citta, we come to see the danger of being forgetful of naama and ruupa while we make gestures and speak. Then we are urged to remember the Buddha’s words as to the practice of "clear comprehension" (sampaja~n~na) in the "Satipa.t.thaana Sutta" (Middle Length Sayings no. 10, in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, dealing with the four kinds of clear comprehension). [Note 4] "And further, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension. " [Note 4] See the translation in "The Way of Mindfulness" by Ven. Soma. ****** Questions 1. Can bodily intimation be the body-door through which a good deed or an evil deed is being performed? 2. Through which door can what is being intimated by bodily movement be recognized? 3. When a conductor conducts an orchestra and he makes gestures in order to show the musicians how to play the music, which types of citta can produce the bodily intimation? 4. When one slanders, which type of rúpa is the door through which such action is being performed? 5. When we speak to others in order to organize our work, can speech be conditioned by akusala citta? ------------------------------ This is the End of Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech. Chapter 7. Ruupas from different Factors will start from the next post. with metta, Han #101154 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 1:12 am Subject: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas chewsadhu Dear Han, Thank you for posting the advice by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. It is very interesting to study Anusaya Yamaka. Hope you will post more later. I am sorry for my explanation of bhuumi or dhaatu as planes of existence in my previous post. As I said I still haven't studied Anusaya Yamaka yet. Hope to learn from you all here. Thanks and Sadhu. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #101155 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 1:16 am Subject: Re: dsg] Latent Tendencies, Anusaya Yamaka. chewsadhu Dear Nina, Thanks and sadhu for your further explanation to help to expel my ignorance. May you be well and happy. With respect, Chew #101156 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 1:44 am Subject: Re: Q. pt: Anusayas. chewsadhu Dear pt and Nina, C: I think they are called Anusaya because they have the potential to arise in future. ---- N: They have not been eradicated, they lie dormant in each citta. ---- C: They lie dormant in each citta, it doesn't mean they exist or arise together with example the kusala citta. --- pt: 2. Considering conditionality - there are conditioning dhammas, conditioned dhammas and conditioning forces (the 24 conditions as I understand). Anusaya to me sound much closer to a conditioning force. ---- C: When there are conditions, the akusala citta and cetasika as conditioned dhamma, they arise. When akusala citta and cetasika arise, they also condition each others. ---- pt: I was struggling to understand how does kamma work and where it is stored, until I read about kamma and vipaka conditions - since these are forces, there's no need for kamma to be stored anywhere physically, but is simply transferred from citta to citta as conditioning forces of kamma and vipaka conditions. ---- C: dhamma has no place to be stored. They arise when there are conditions for them to arise. When they have ceased, they disappeared. It is not like forces transfer from one citta to another citta. In the ultimate sense, there are only the four ultimate realities. This is just a kind of sharing. Please let me know if I am wrong. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #101157 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 2:12 am Subject: Anattalakkhana Sutta - Mahasi Sayadaw chewsadhu Dear Sarah, Nina, Han, I read the below text from http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/mahasi-anat/anat08.htm "Sabbe dhammā anattāti" Noticed that Mahasi Sayadaw said Dhamma in this verse has the same purpose as saṅkhārā of the previous two verses, meaning mundane mentality and corporeality as perceived by insight knowledge. All the time I thought the word "dhamma" there also includes supramundane Path, Fruition and the unconditioned Nibbaana as well. What is your comment? May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew ---- NIBBINDĀ ĀṆA DEVELOPED WHEN NOT-SELF IS SEEN Sabbe dhammā anattāti yadā paāya passati atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā. Dhamma in this verse has the same purpose as saṅkhārā of the previous two verses, meaning mundane mentality and corporeality as perceived by insight knowledge. Anattā is dhamma and dhamma, phenomena, thus means anattā. In order to bring out more clearly the meaning of saṅkhārā as nonself, the word dhamma is employed here. This is the explanation given in the Commentary and we believe it is quite appropriate and acceptable. But there are other views which hold that the word dhamma is purposely used here to include the supramundane Path, Fruition and the unconditioned Nibbāna as well. We believe this interpretation is not quite tenable. The ordinary person perceives saṅkhārā, such as acts of seeing and hearing, as permanent and pleasant, whereas the meditator sees them as transient and suffering. Likewise, what the ordinary person regards as self, namely mundane mentality and corporeality, the meditator sees as not-self, anattā. The meditator need not and cannot note supramundane things. They cannot be objects of contemplation and he could thus have no attachments for them. Thus it must be taken that dhamma here means just mundane saṅkhārā, mentality and corporeality, which can form the objects of vipassanā contemplation. #101158 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 2:27 am Subject: For Nina, Chew, Sarah: Re: [dsg] Anusayas hantun1 Dear Chew, Chew: I am sorry for my explanation of bhuumi or dhaatu as planes of existence in my previous post. As I said I still haven't studied Anusaya Yamaka yet. Hope to learn from you all here. Han: Please do not feel sorry. I was also very confident that the three bhuumis or the three dhaatus represent the planes of existence, until it was clarified by Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi. Respectfully, Han #101159 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 3:15 am Subject: Re: the present moment, to Ken H. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > <. . .> By studying the present reality > understanding can grow. That is the answer to all our doubts, to all > our discouragement. > -------- > Now, Ken, it is your turn. I am not going to write a diary all by > myself. Only if you also take a turn. ----- Hi Nina, Azita, and anyone else who would like to join in, There is only the present moment. If we could only know one thing, that would surely be the thing to choose. No other knowledge could compare with it. Nothing else could be anywhere near as valuable. No matter how dire our circumstances, or what disaster may threaten us, everything will ultimately be the same as it is now - just a present, transitory, moment of nama and rupa - no self. I suppose that might be why we sometimes hear K Sujin and her students asking, "Is there right understanding now?" Now is when it is needed because, here in samsara, the situation is indeed dire, and all kinds of disasters do threaten. So is there? Ken H #101160 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 7, 2009 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment, to Ken H. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Nina) - In a message dated 10/7/2009 11:15:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > <. . .> By studying the present reality > understanding can grow. That is the answer to all our doubts, to all > our discouragement. > -------- > Now, Ken, it is your turn. I am not going to write a diary all by > myself. Only if you also take a turn. ----- Hi Nina, Azita, and anyone else who would like to join in, There is only the present moment. If we could only know one thing, that would surely be the thing to choose. No other knowledge could compare with it. Nothing else could be anywhere near as valuable. ------------------------------------------------- Or as trivial - unless it means something other than what it says. At any given time, it is that time and only that time. It is ever and only the present moment. What other moment could it be? ------------------------------------------------- No matter how dire our circumstances, or what disaster may threaten us, everything will ultimately be the same as it is now - just a present, transitory, moment of nama and rupa - no self. I suppose that might be why we sometimes hear K Sujin and her students asking, "Is there right understanding now?" Now is when it is needed because, here in samsara, the situation is indeed dire, and all kinds of disasters do threaten. So is there? -------------------------------------------------- You tell me. Is there? For some people yes, for others no. And at some moments yes, and at other moments no. Are all times, all "nows," the same? Is there no change? What is this "great discovery" that there is only now? That tautology is not what the Buddha said is important to know. He said that the tilakkhana and dependent origination and the four noble truths are. ------------------------------------------------- Ken H =========================== With metta, Howard The Aggregates are Void /Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./ (From the Phena Sutta) #101161 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 4:49 am Subject: Re: Some Questions szmicio Dear Suan Regarding Satipatthana Sutta and vineti. The Mahasatipatthana Sutta begins with words of exaltation and truth: "That is only and only one way that leads to purification and this ekayano maggo/eko dhammo is the cattari satipatthano(four satipatthanas). And directly after that comes those words of truth: <‘‘Katame cattaaro? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m; vedanaasu vedanaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m; citte cittaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m; dhammesu dhammaanupassii viharati aataapii sampajaano satimaa, vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassa.m.> L: L: here in this short passage Buddha points out 4 kinds of awareness. There is nothing there about cutting of defilements first. he just points out that in moments of awarness there is no craving and aversion towards the world. As long as there is no pa~n~na that discerns nama from ruupa, there is no awarness. Best wishes Lukas #101162 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 4:55 am Subject: Re: Some Questions szmicio Dear Phil Please tell me more about siila. How do you train in siila? How can I train? What if I dont have proper effort to siila. Whaw can i acquire this right effort to achive siila? My best wishes Lukas > #101163 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 5:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment, to Ken H. kenhowardau Hi Howard, -------- KH: > > There is only the present moment. If we could only know one thing, that would surely be the thing to choose. No other knowledge could compare with it. Nothing else could be anywhere near as valuable. H: > Or as trivial - unless it means something other than what it says. At any given time, it is that time and only that time. It is ever and only the present moment. What other moment could it be? -------- Yes, on the one hand it is a totally trivial, commonplace, piece of information. And yet on the other hand it is totally profound - known only by ariyans. -------------- <. . .> KH: > > I suppose that might be why we sometimes hear K Sujin and her students asking, "Is there right understanding now?" <. . .> So is there? > > H: > You tell me. Is there? ---------------- I asked first. :-) ----------------- H: > For some people yes, for others no. And at some moments yes, and at other moments no. ----------------- For panna it's samvega; it *must be now.* ----------------------------- H: > Are all times, all "nows," the same? ------------------------------ They are the same in that, whatever they are, they are all we have. And they are all we ever will have. The next moment (a trillionth of a second in the future) will be experienced by a consciousness that is totally new and distinct from the present consciousness. -------------------------- H: > Is there no change? -------------------------- There will always be just dhammas. ----------------------------- H: > What is this "great discovery" that there is only now? That tautology is not what the Buddha said is important to know. ---------------------------- "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen and pay close attention." (Sabbha Sutta) ---------------- H: > He said that the tilakkhana and dependent origination and the four noble truths are. ---------------- Yes, but I don't see any contradiction in that. Ken H #101164 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 5:34 am Subject: Re: Q. pt: Anusayas. ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks very much for your reply. Looking forward to anusayas study. Best wishes pt #101165 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Latent Tendencies, Anusaya Yamaka. nilovg Dear Han, thank you very much, exactly what I need. This confirms what I read in the Co. to Anusaya Yamaka. Nina. Op 8-okt-2009, om 0:08 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I found piya ruupa, sata ruupa in Khandha Yamaka, in paragraphs 27 > and 28 of the Pali text. #101166 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 6:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. pt: Anusayas. nilovg Dear Chew, Op 8-okt-2009, om 3:44 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > C: dhamma has no place to be stored. They arise when there are > conditions for them to arise. When they have ceased, they > disappeared. It is not like forces transfer from one citta to > another citta. > In the ultimate sense, there are only the four ultimate realities. --------- N:Quite right, there is no place to store. However, we can still speak of the force (in pali: satti) of kamma, the co. speak of this. Kamma is accumulated from one citta to another so that it can produce result later on. Nina. #101167 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 6:17 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha experienced at his enlightenment the unconditioned reality which is nibbna. His passing away was the absolute extinguishment of conditions for the continuation of the life process. When the Buddha was still alive people asked him what would happen to him after his passing away. He explained that this belongs to the questions which cannot be answered, questions which are merely speculative and do not lead to the goal. The Buddhas passing away cannot be called the annihilation of life, and there cannot be rebirth for him in another plane, either. If there would be rebirth he would not have reached the end of all suffering. The fourth noble Truth, the way leading to the ceasing of suffering, is the development of the eightfold Path as taught by the Buddha. I will deal with the eightfold Path more extensively later on in this book. The eightfold Path is the development of understanding of all physical phenomena and mental phenomena which occur in daily life. Very gradually these phenomena can be realized as impermanent, suffering and not self. The Buddha taught that there is in the absolute sense no abiding person or self. What is generally understood as a person is merely a temporary combination of mental phenomena and physical phenomena which arise and fall away. The Buddhas teaching of the truth of non self is deep and difficult to grasp. This teaching is unique and cannot be found in other philosophical systems or religions. I will deal with the truth of non self later on in this book. So long as there is still clinging to the concept of a self defilements cannot be eradicated. There has to be first the eradication of the wrong view of self and then other defilements can be eradicated stage by stage. ****** Nina. #101168 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 6:18 am Subject: Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio Dear Sarah There is a few questions to Acharn Sujin I wanna ask: "Dear Acharn, You are my greatest friend and teacher. Since I've met you, a lot of things didnt change, my siila is not better(actually is not good even), I dont have kusala, when I want to have. Still all the same, the same life, the same Lukas who's involved in all this deep daily life akusalas. But one thing changed since I've met you, my misery(dukkha) became weaker. That's for sure. I know about 4 Noble Truths a bit, and I know how it is against of what we used to think. This is the way in different direction that we think. It's supprising. But I grieve because my siila goes weaker from day to day. My akusala seems to persecute me, and I feel like they growing more and more. mana that is pride also dont give me rest. sometimes I think that maybe the way now with you, Nina, Bhante Dhammadara is not a good way. I feel like living on the edge. but be honest I cant change this. I cant start siila, when I want siila. But why I have so much akusala and dosa, that leads to akusala kamma-pattha? What if I am agitated on account of Dhamma? What if this agitation doesnt help Dhamma? I feel like no way out from my misery. Few years ago, I've experinced tender insight and come to Dhamma. But since that moment I didnt understand anymore. And instead of understanding I have akusalas , deep akusalas. 1. Is it wise reflection of vipaka or awarness of vipaka, when there is an instant blink that considers vipaka in life? I mean the moments in daily life when vipaka is appreaciated in this very moment. No people and things. 2. What's with thinking with dosa, and thinking with lobha? 3. Why people walk around and try to concentrate on foots going? Why? They take this for awarness? 4. The Best way to understand? 5. There is forgetfulness all the time, and i dont want that. 6. I was very urgent and now I am not. I want to be urgent. I am not urgent now from a long time. I dont like to be not urgent. 7. What's patience? 8. I am patient when there are conditions to be patient. I am not patient when I want to be patient. I was patient few moments in life. The last time I was patient was long ago. Usually I think on patience, but there is no patience. 8a) And if I am angry instead of be patient? What's wrong then? 8b) When I am angry, I think a lot that I am not a good guy. Not a Dhamma guy. 8c) When I feel anger, I think its not normal to feel so much anger. Normal people dont feel so much anger. Am I not normal? 9. I've experienced tender insight. A deep truth. And now I forget it. 10. I feel a lot of dosa. I am forgeting the reality now. 11. I feel like no samvega now. 12. What if i am involved in my own deep ignorance, and I dont see the way to get out of it. 13. I feel dosa when reading. Stong dosa, and I cant read. 14. The moments of moving hand is so conditioned. 15. I left all my life to conditions. I just live. But the whole my life is one big akusala. Even I hear about development of kusala, they dont arise. 16. I know what you mean by yoniso manasikara, it's really funny how much its out of control. I fint it out to myself that moments with yoniso manasikara are conditioned, When they appear there is bhavana. 17. When I meet different people I dont say anything, when they are wrong, or they do some mischevious. Sometimes I say, what's a problem? 18. I've go past moments of understanding and know I dont understand. 19. What's with mana, the pride or the Self polishing? I think it may be my problem. That's problem all the time. And only sometimes it's not. 20. I understand 4 Noble Truths, but when I am trying to do this and that I feel like I am going not this way. 21. I feel a lot of dosa when i say or write somethin to other people. 22. I practiced a lot before. A lot of sitting meditation. a lot of walking meditation. A lot of seclusions. But I only rested with awarness, when I forgot this whole technics. I rest with awarness, going throught park. I dont belive you, what you said Acharn, I know your right. 23. Is there anything in Texts about person that has quarrelling type of personality? ----------------------------- L: Sarah maybe dont ask them all in once. Just divide them. There is included all different minds that arise in me, different minds with doubts and pride. Please ask them slowly. But of course do as you want. The introduction i've made can answer most of my doubts, so take care that Ajahn will answer. The last question, most recent, is about ruupa that is intimation. ------------------------ 24. There are two ruupas of intimation: body intimation and speech intimation body intimation is the ruupa of what we conventionaly call gestures and movements. When walking there is this kind of ruupa that performs it's function and also there is ruupa of speech intimation, that performs function of speaking. But where is the ruupa of smile? There is ruupa that makes smile to be 'intimated'. Where is this ruupa in 28 ruupas? We used to think, that we can smile, but that is only citta that smiles and ruupas. We dont have control over our smile and the same we dont have control over 'smile intimation', they are conditioned. when there is awarness the 'smile' can be an object, then no world. ----------- best wishes Lukas #101169 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 6:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 8-okt-2009, om 8:18 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > body intimation is the ruupa of what we conventionaly call gestures > and movements. When walking there is this kind of ruupa that > performs it's function > > and also there is ruupa of speech intimation, that performs > function of speaking. > > But where is the ruupa of smile? There is ruupa that makes smile to > be 'intimated'. Where is this ruupa in 28 ruupas? > > We used to think, that we can smile, but that is only citta that > smiles and ruupas. ---------- N: you said: 'body intimation is the ruupa of what we conventionaly call gestures and movements. When walking there is this kind of ruupa that performs it's function.' No, only when there is the intention to convey something to someone else by gestures or bodily movevements, bodily intimation performs its function. Not any moment of walking. When smiling, citta conditions rupas, such as hardness or motion. Usually it is citta rooted in lobha. You are distressed by all your akusala. This is very common. I heard people say: since I learnt about realities it seems that I have many more moments of akusala than before. But this is the case: you realize more often when akusala arises, akusala you did not know of before. Whatever arises is just dhamma and it can be object of understanding. Nina. #101170 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 6:57 am Subject: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Intro: The Latent Tendencies. Introduction This book is a translation from Thai of Bulletin II, of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundantion which deals with the latent tendencies, anusayas. Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome behaviour and inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to life. The latent tendencies are unwholesome inclinations that are accumulated. They are the following: sense-desire (kma-rga), aversion (paigha), conceit (mna), wrong view (dihi), doubt (vicikicch), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavarga), and ignorance (avijj). It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies and their power. They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence our behaviour. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting the body. So long as they have not been eradicated we are like sick people, because they can condition the arising of akusala citta when there are the appropriate conditions.They can condition the arising of akusala citta even to the degree of transgression of sla at any time, and thus, more defilements are accumulated again and added to the latent tendencies. The teaching of the latent tendencies helps us to see why the defilements in our life are so tenacious, arising again and again, and why their arising is unforeseeable and uncontrollable. When we study the enumeration of the latent tendencies, we should remember that these latent tendencies are not abstract notions. The latent tendency of sense-desire or sensuous clinging conditions akusala citta with attachment to any kind of pleasant object. We may have expectations as to kind words or praise from other people. This is selfish desire that has been deeply accumulated and is very powerful. The latent tendency of aversion conditions akusala citta with aversion, but we should know that this has many shades. It is not only a matter of hate or anger, but it also arises when we are upset or depressed because we do not receive the pleasant object we were hoping for. The latent tendency of conceit conditions the arising of akusala citta with clinging to the importance of self. It can arise on account of any object experienced through the six doorways, and it often motivates our speech and actions. All latent tendencies condition the arising of akusala citta, but because of the accumulated ignorance we do not notice their arising, we are deluded time and again. Through the Abhidhamma we come to know the deep underlying motives of our actions, speech and thoughts. We often deceive ourselves as to the motives of our actions, speech and thoughts that seem to be wholesome. In reality they are mostly directed towards our own gain, they are motivated by selfish desire. With a growing understanding of the latent tendencies that are powerful conditions for all akusala cittas in our life, we will be urged to be mindful of all realities, akusala included. By reflecting and being aware of whatever reality appears we can learn to become more sincere and truthful with regard to the cittas that arise. In this book there are quotations from the texts of the Tipiaka and Commentaries which deal with the latent tendencies and which explain in detail their characteristics and the way they are eradicated. ****** Nina. #101171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 8:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment, to Ken H. nilovg Dear Ken, Op 8-okt-2009, om 5:15 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > There is only the present moment. If we could only know one thing, > that would surely be the thing to choose. No other knowledge could > compare with it. Nothing else could be anywhere near as valuable. ---------- N: There is only the present moment. It is the reality, the naama or ruupa appearing now that should be studied with awareness. Each citta must experience an object, there is no citta without experiencing an object. Visible object, sound and all the sense objects present themselves one at a time. These are conditioned dhammas and do not belong to a self. However, we are ignorant of all these objects. Different objects seem to appear at the same time. It seems that we see people and things, but seeing sees only what is visible. Seeing arises and shortly after that thinking of what is seen arises and it seems that they occur at the same time. Understanding of realities, of naama and ruupa is most valuable and it cannot be compared with understanding of worldly matters, such as subjects in the field of science. Hiri, shame, of ignorance may arise when there are conditions for it. Hiri or shame of akusala sees the disadvantages of ignorance. Ignorance is dangerous, it is the root of all akusala. When we are wishing for more awareness and understanding, this is motivated by lobha. But when hiri of ignorance arises there is an urgency to develop understanding of what appears now, and the motives are pure, without any idea of self who wants to gain something. ----------- > > K: No matter how dire our circumstances, or what disaster may > threaten us, everything will ultimately be the same as it is now - > just a present, transitory, moment of nama and rupa - no self. --------- N: If there is understanding of nama or rupa appearing now there will be less the idea of a self who has to undergo suffering and distress. We may be distressed or sad, but there is also seeing experiencing visible object and at that moment citta does not experience the object of distress. Only one object at a time is experienced by citta. The next moment we may be distressed again, but then sound appears and citta hears sound. All the time only one object is experienced. This helps in times of mourning. -------- > > K: I suppose that might be why we sometimes hear K Sujin and her > students asking, "Is there right understanding now?" Now is when it > is needed because, here in samsara, the situation is indeed dire, > and all kinds of disasters do threaten. ------- N: We may at times think that life is pleasant, but pleasantness does not last. Sa.msara is sorrowful since it is never sure what kind of rebirth will be the next one. There may not be any opportunity to hear Dhamma. The question 'Is there right understanding now?" is only posed by way of reminder. Right understanding cannot arise on command. When we find that understanding is very weak it means that more listening is necessary. When listening there is always something new to learn. As Howard says, it is important to know the tilakkhana, the dependent origination and the four noble truths. Yes, but they pertain to our life now. They are not a set of doctrines we have to know merely intellectually. The three characteristics: for example anatta, we have to understand that seeing is not self. When? When it appears. The four noble truths pertain to our life now. Seeing arises and falls away and thus it is dukkha. The impermanence of nama and rupa can be realized by insight that is more developed. But it all pertains to this moment. The Dependent Origination: at this moment there is ignorance and this conditions the whole chain ending in birth, old age and death. Nina. #101172 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 8:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, They'll be helpful for everyone. We'll ask a little at a time, slowly as you suggest. Metta Sarah --- On Thu, 8/10/09, Lukas wrote: From: Lukas Dear Sarah There is a few questions to Acharn Sujin I wanna ask: <...> #101173 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 9:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks sarahprocter... Dear Han (Ven Dhammanando & all), --- On Mon, 5/10/09, han tun wrote: >I found the following text in Buddhist Monastic Code II Chapter 20 Disciplinary Transactions by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ thanissaro/ bmc2/bmc2. ch20.html ... S: Very good research! Many thanks. It's an interesting topic you've raised. .... ------------ -------- >"...The Buddha then instructs the Community to overturn its bowl to Va.d.dha, so that none of the bhikkhus are to have communion with him. (This, according to the Commentary, means that none of the bhikkhus are to accept offerings from his household.) Ven. Ānanda, on his alms round the following day, stops off at Va.d.dha's house to inform him that the Community has overturned its bowl to him. On hearing this news, Va.d.dha collapses in a faint. When he recovers, he goes with his relatives to confess his wrong doing to the Buddha. The Buddha accepts his confession and tells the Community to turn its bowl upright for Va.d.dha, so that the bhikkhus may associate with him as before. The Community, if it wants to, may overturn its bowl to a lay person endowed with the following eight qualities....."< *** >Han: Here, it is clear that the monks are overturning their bowls to the lay-person who has committed one of the eight conditions, and not that the lay-person's bowl is turned upside down. ... S: I agree that this is how it appears in Thanissaro's summary and it would appear to make more sense (and certainly to be in keeping with the interpretation by the Burmese monks), but he doesn't actually quote the text for the lines about overturning the bowl. Both he and I.B. Horner have been known to make errors, so let's look at the Pali together. (As Suan will tell you, I know little:-)). Anyway, here is the Pali for the first line summarised above: "Atha kho bhagavaa bhikkhuu aamantesi – ‘‘tena hi, bhikkhave, sa'ngho va.d.dhassa licchavissa patta.m nikkujjatu, asambhoga.m sa'nghena karotu." I.B.Horner's transl.: "Then the Lord addressed the monks, saying: 'Because of this, monks, let the Order turn the Licchavi Va.d.dha's bowl upside down, let it impose non-eating with the Order." [S: I've already given her commentary notes indicating that 'nikkujjanaa' or turning down a bowl is 'symbolical', meaning no receiving of alms, not by placing it face downwards.] It would seem to me that the translation above is accurate. I take 'nikkhujjatu' to be the 3rd person imperative tense. The imperative also, including prohibitions and wishes. Other exampls, bhavatu, hotu. What do you think? ... >I.B. Horner's (PTS) translation of imposing non-eating with the Order might come from "sambhoga", which literally means "consuming together" or "sharing wealth." But it does not mean the lay-persons are eating together with the monks. It means that there is to be no communion between him/her and the Sangha Community, if he/she commits one of the eight conditions. ... S: Yes, this is well put. "asa.mbhoga.m sa'mghena karotu" Horner: "let it impose non-eating with the Order." Again the 3rd person imperative. An act of suspension. As you say, it cannot mean the laypersons are literally eating with the monks. I.B.Horner has a note on another passage where the phrase occurs in Cv 1,25. In this case, it is a monk, the Ven Channa who has the "asa.mbhoga.m" imposed.: "Well then, monks, let the Order carry out a (formal) act of suspension (ukkhepaniyakamma) against the monk Channa for not seeing his offence, (and there should be) no eating with an Order." note:" 'Asambhoga.m sa'mghena. At Vin iv 138 it is an offence of expiation to eat with a monk who is suspended. Two kinds of sambhoga, eating food and eating dhamma, are defined at Vin iv 137. The monk in the above Cv passage is not deprived of 'being in communion' 'sa.mvaasa', with the other monks for not seeing his offence." S: So, it's still not quite clear to me... >I thank you once again for your looking for the references for me. ... S: I'll also look forward to any of your further research once you receive the text yourself. You have a very kind and helpful grandson! [I'm also wondering if Ven Dhammanando or any other bhikkhus have more knowledge of this.] Metta Sarah ======== #101174 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 9:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anattalakkhana Sutta - Mahasi Sayadaw nilovg Dear Chew, Op 8-okt-2009, om 4:12 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > "Sabbe dhammaa; anattaa ti" > Noticed that Mahasi Sayadaw said Dhamma in this verse has the same > purpose as sa.nkhaara of the previous two verses, meaning mundane > mentality and corporeality as perceived by insight knowledge. > > All the time I thought the word "dhamma" there also includes > supramundane Path, Fruition and the unconditioned Nibbaana as well. -------- N: Yes, you are right. People may think of nibbaana as a person or a place and that is wrong. Nibbaana is anattaa. Ven. Mahaasi speaks of commentaries but these are not the ancient commentaries which are all in agreement with the Tipi.taka. He said: Thus it must be taken that dhamma here means just mundane sa.nkhaara, mentality and corporeality, which can form the objects of vipassanā contemplation. True, but also nibbaana is included, all dhammas. Nina. #101175 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 9:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- On Mon, 5/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: >"What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain" - MN 140 >""'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness. ' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness. '"" ... S: This is referring to consciousness with pa~n~naa, insight, which understands the various kinds of vedana for what they are - elements, not belonging to anyone. ... >""'It feels, it feels': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'feeling.' And what does it feel? It feels pleasure. It feels pain. It feels neither pleasure nor pain. 'It feels, it feels': Thus it is said to be 'feeling.'"" - MN43 ... S: It is the feeling itself which feels, no person. Again, these are the kinds of feeling to be understood by pa~n~naa, by insight. .... http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.140. than.html http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.043. than.html >They both seem to aware of pleasant, painful & neither pleasant-nor- painful. So what is the difference between Vinnana & Vedana in the case of pleasant, painful & neither pleasant-nor- painful sensation? ... S: Each moment of vinnana (i.e. citta) is accompanied by a pleasant, painful or neutral vedana (feeling). In addition, at moments of pa~n~naa (insight, not samatha pa~n~naa), any reality, including any kind of vedana can be directly understood, just as it is - an element, not any self. Metta Sarah ======== #101176 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, Spam spam spam! It worked! Metta Sarah --- On Sat, 3/10/09, sprlrt wrote: >Here is a simile which might help sorting nimitta out a bit, The sense-door process would be the sender end in a fax communication session, and it would send a page, one of the seven visaya rpas (visible... tangible rpa) impinging on the corresponding pasada rpas (eye... body rpa). As soon as the page/visaya rpa is sent it self-destroy itself, it falls away. The recipient would be the mind-door, bhavanga citta, via saa, and it would receive the fac-simile (as rpa nimitta, the shadow of a reality) of the original page which would be just as good as the original, which is no longer in existence. After the first page is received (by the first mind-door process after a sense door one, with bhavanga cittas interposing) , in which the received page corresponds to the page actually sent, many other pages (dhamma rammanas, objects of mind-door processes) would pile up one after the other, like spam, and, because of kilesa, defilements, each extra page would add something to the original, according to one's own accumulations; these pages/processes would also be nimitta, shadows, but not of a reality, since they differ from the original, hence concepts/pannatti. <...> #101177 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 10:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Sat, 3/10/09, ptaus1 wrote: >Glad to continue this discussion. >> S: I think that any right understanding arises because of accumulations for such and in spite of the wrong views associated with intentions to focus on particular objects in order to develop kusala. >pt: I think this was very well put - that right understanding arises in spite of wrong views. That's exactly how it seems in practice. When begining a samatha bhavana sitting (or lying down in my case), first there are a lot akusala moments, .... S: A quick interruption - in what way is this a "samatha bhavana sitting" or samatha bhavana anything, when there are "a lot of akusala moments"? Again, I think that samatha bhavana comes down to moments of right understanding and calm, such as if we happen to be wisely reflecting on the Buddha's virtues now. I don't think it has anything to do with deciding to have a "samatha bhavana sitting/practice" now or later. ... >and only a flash of kusala here and there. But after some time the kusala moments start to increase for some reason. ... S: And is there any clinging or attachment to having such moments increase? What about now - kusala, akusala - any dhamma can be known, but only with understanding and detachment, regardless of the object. .... >> S: When people defend f.m. with their lives, it never sounds like standing up for panna to me:-)) There is no understanding of namas and rupas as anatta. Without that, it's bound to be micha ditthi motivating the f.m. as I see it. >pt: Well, I think that most do recognise nama-rupa instinctively in practice to some degree, but can't really express it in abdhidhamma terms. It's often described as a general understanding of anatta - there's a realisation that "this is not me" - .... S: Yes, lots of people have a vague idea of "this is not me" and talk about everything being anatta and anicca, but I don't see this as any understanding namas and rupas as anatta. If there is no understanding of particular dhammas, such as seeing as a nama, visible object as a rupa, there cannot be any real understanding of anatta. And unless such dhammas are clearly understood as anatta, the impermanence of the same dhammas can never be understood as anicca. It's bound to remain as a vague, conceptual understanding - not the understanding of realities. .... >i.e. "trying too hard, trying to achieve jhana" etc - these are recognised as unwholesome mental actions in meditation practice. Of course, it's not as clear-cut, but there's a more or less vague understanding that certain mental occurences are not useful (akusala) and if one identifies with them, it just leads to more problems - hence, anatta becomes understood to a degree - if there's no identification with these unwholesome mental states (like trying too hard) then meditation actually gets better (more kusala). So, I'd say that panna in this case does understand anatta to a degree and recognises some namas as kusala/akusala. .... S: Certainly in your case, for example, there has already been a lot of reading and considering about such dhammas and so there can be moments of understanding anytime, including these times you set aside. For those who've never heard or considered anything about realities including kusala and akusala dhammas, it's a different matter. Rupas also have to be understood, not just selected kusala and akusala states too. Again, exactly what is anatta at this moment? .... >Of course, it'd be great if meditators could study more abdhidhamma and be able to explain all this in proper vocabulary, but most just don't. So, yes, I might be engaging in wishful thinking here. ... S: Whether anyone is a meditator or not, it just depends on whether they really see the benefit of understanding their lives more clearly at this very moment. Do most people really want to understand dhammas as anatta? I don't think so. Metta Sarah ========= #101178 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 10:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] personal news and Dhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- On Fri, 2/10/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: On the same day as the T.V. (getting up before four in the morning) we had the most wonderful party at the Department of Foreign Affairs. We and many others thought of it as a family party. I am very bad at standing for along time but then I remembered a simple advice of Kh Sujin in Egypt: I complained that we had so many parties, and she said: just think of the others' happiness, do not think of yourself and then you can manage it. You can help the others to enjoy the party. Yes, I could stand for a long time at a stretch. I thought of her advice. .... S: I'm glad to hear it:-) We never know what will happen or how anything will turn out. You may have felt very apprehensive about the party and yet it turned out so well. Yes, when we think of the others' happiness, it's easy - we don't think of ourselves. My mother is vey good at holding parties and taking care of everyone. She did a lot of this over her birthday, not thinking of her age or being tired out by it all. ... >People may think: this is too simple, anyone could say this. No, it goes more deeply. When we learn (I say learn) and begin to understand a little that self does not exist, it leads to 'belittling' oneself to some degree, but not yet enough! With Kh Sujin we see that it conditions more metta, always thinking of others' welfare. There is a great deal of discussion on siila, good and kind speech, for example. Mettaa, thinking of others ensures kusala siila. We do not have to think: now I must practise siila. It all can come naturally. ... S: Yes and then we find we can talk about any topic which interests the others, caring for their welfare, rather than thinking about our own interests and concerns. As you say, when there is metta, thinking of what others would like, being friendly and kind, then kusala sila is ensured. ... >Enough preaching for today :-)) ... S: I enjoyed it :-)) And glad to see that you and Ken H are sharing dhamma diaries. As you always say, the pesonal examples and Dhamma in daily life are always helpful to share. Metta Sarah ======= #101179 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 10:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings), Suan (1). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Thank you belatedly for all the good quotes on sila from the Vism. Perhaps we can also raise the samaadhaana, (co-ordinating, concentration...etc) as discussed in Bkk. Will let you know what comes up... --- On Sun, 27/9/09, scottduncan2 wrote: >"...What is virtue? It is the states beginning with volition present in one who abstains from killing living things, etc.; or in one who fulfils the practice of duties. For this is said in the Pa.tisambhidaa: 'What is virtue? There is , virtue as consciousness- concomitant, virtue as restraint, virtue as non-transgression' (Ps.1.44)... In what sense is it virtue? It is virtue (siila) in the sense of composing (siilana). What is this composing? It is either a coordinating (samaadhaana) , meaning non-inconsistency of bodily action, etc., due to virtuousness; or it is an upholding (upadhaara.na) , meaning a state of basis (aadhaara) owing to its serving as foundation for profitable states...Now what are its characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause? Here: <...> Metta Sarah ======= #101180 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 10:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your further explanation. As far as I am concerned, I will take the interpretation of (patta-nikkujja-kamma) by Burmese Sayadaws, as overturning their bowls by the monks, i.e., they will not accept the alms from that lay-person(s). You also mentioned about Ven Channa. That is also interesting. In this case, it is not called (patta-nikkujja-kamma), but imposing Brahma-penality (Brahma-da.n.da). In DN 16 Mahaa-parinibbaana Sutta, "Aananda, after my passing, the monk Channa is to receive the Brahma-penality". "But, Lord, what is the Brahma-penality?" "Aananda, whatever the monk Channa wants or says, he is not to be spoken to, admonished or instructed by the monks". "Channassa Aananda bhikkhuno mamaccayena brahmada.n.do daatabbo"ti. "Katamo pana bhante brahmada.n.do?"ti. "Channo Aananda bhikkhu ya.m iccheyya ta.m vadeyya, so bhikkhuuhi neva vattabbo na ovaditabbo na anusaasitabbo"ti. Pali Glossary: accaya: [m.] passing away. da.n.da: [m.] a fine, punishment. daatabba: [pt.p. of dadaati] fit to be given. katama: [adj.] which; what. iccha: [adj.] wishing; longing; desirous of. vadeti: [vad + e] says; speaks. vattabba: [pt.p. of vadati] should be spoken; should be told. ovaada: [m.] advice; exhortation; instruction. anusaasi: [aor. of anusaasati] advised, admonished. Respectfully, Han #101181 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 11:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings), Suan (1). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "Thank you belatedly for all the good quotes on sila from the Vism. Perhaps we can also raise the samaadhaana, (co-ordinating, concentration...etc) as discussed in Bkk. Will let you know what comes up..." Scott: You're welcome. Thank you, I'll be interested to read of it if it comes up. Sincerely, Scott. #101182 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 2:11 pm Subject: Vineyya MEANS Vinayitvaa (by removing) Re: Some Questions abhidhammika Dear Lukas, Phil, Howard, Alex, Freawaru, Nina, Jon, Robert K, Sarah, Mike N, Chris F How are you? Lukas wrote: "There is nothing there about cutting of defilements first." I am amazed to know that you did not read the definition of 'vineti' from Pali Text Society dictionary properly. _______________________________________ Vineti [vi+neti; cp. vinaya] 1. to remove, put away, give up. -- ppr. vinaya J vi.499; Pot. 3rd sg. vinayetha Sn 361, & vineyya Sn 590; imper. vinaya Sn 1098, & vinayassu Sn 559. -- ger. vineyya Sn 58 _____________________________________________ Please read the above definition of the term 'vineti' carefully. The commentary on Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam also explained as follows. "Tattha vineyyaati tadangavinayena vaa vikkhambhanavinayena vaa vinayitvaa." "In that expression, the phrase 'vineyya' means 'by removing (covetousness and discontent) through counteractive removal or through intense removal'." The above explanation agrees with my following translation given in the original post: "Vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam" means in English "by removing covetousness and discontent in the world". Lukas also wrote: "he just points out that in moments of awarness there is no craving and aversion towards the world." No, Lukas! The Buddha did not say at all what you paraphrased. He simply said "by removing covetousness and discontent in the world". The Buddha's statement is simple, obvious and straightforward. Lukas, it is not very good to distort the original meaning of a simple and obvious statement. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: Dear Suan Regarding Satipatthana Sutta and vineti. #101183 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 2:54 pm Subject: Vineyya MEANS Vinayitvaa (by removing) Re: Some Questions scottduncan2 Dear Suan and Lukas, Regarding: L: "There is nothing there about cutting of defilements first." Scott: When the kusala dhammaa of which siila consists have arisen, are in ascendance, are present, or however one wishes to state this, then the akusala dhammaa cannot arise, are not in ascendance, are not present. This is natural. This does not lend to being turned into an instruction. Such thinking is merely wishful. S: "I am amazed to know that you did not read the definition of 'vineti' from Pali Text Society dictionary properly...No, Lukas! The Buddha did not say at all what you paraphrased. He simply said 'by removing covetousness and discontent in the world'. The Buddha's statement is simple, obvious and straightforward...Lukas, it is not very good to distort the original meaning of a simple and obvious statement." Scott: Don't you mean to suggest, Suan, in writing the above, that you simply disagree with Lukas? I think that the scholarly aspect of your opinions would be more apparent stripped of such rhetoric. I would have hoped you could have taken Sarah's advice to heart by attempting to remove such speech from your posts. It is a good example of how kusala cannot be willed or commanded or instructed. I do attempt to glean from your posts some sort of essence upon which to ponder, despite their flaws of etiquette. Sincerely, Scott. #101184 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment, to Ken H. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Ken) - In a message dated 10/8/2009 4:22:34 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: As Howard says, it is important to know the tilakkhana, the dependent origination and the four noble truths. Yes, but they pertain to our life now. ------------------------------------- Yes. ------------------------------------- They are not a set of doctrines we have to know merely intellectually. -------------------------------------- Yes! ------------------------------------- The three characteristics: for example anatta, we have to understand that seeing is not self. When? When it appears. --------------------------------------- Yes!! And as it disappears. --------------------------------------- The four noble truths pertain to our life now. ---------------------------------------- They do. ---------------------------------------- Seeing arises and falls away and thus it is dukkha. --------------------------------------- And more generally, peace is not to be found in it, and that would even be so if it did not fall away. --------------------------------------- The impermanence of nama and rupa can be realized by insight that is more developed. But it all pertains to this moment. --------------------------------------- All existing and all knowing is when it is, and never otherwise. So we CANNOT live in the past or future, and the present is ungraspable, and thus we must let go, release, and relinquish, else we suffer. ----------------------------------------- The Dependent Origination: at this moment there is ignorance and this conditions the whole chain ending in birth, old age and death. ------------------------------------------- Yes! And we need to see it. ============================== With metta, Howard Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #101185 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 6:32 pm Subject: Co, subco, anutiika, matika to Yamaka. nilovg Dear Han and Chew, Connie sent me all of the subco: anutiika, matika of Yamaka. Tell me what you need and I send it over. I noted all the parts on anusayas, and can also send these in copy if that is easy for you. If I give page numbers it will not help, the numbers may change. Han, what is okasa. I understand that it is occasion, opportunity, but here, in the Yamaka? Nina. #101186 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 9:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Co, subco, anutiika, matika to Yamaka. hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: Connie sent me all of the subco: anutiika, matika of Yamaka. Tell me what you need and I send it over. I noted all the parts on anusayas, and can also send these in copy if that is easy for you. If I give page numbers it will not help, the numbers may change. Han: I would like to have whatever you have on Anusaya Yamaka, if you can kindly send them off-line. I am also interested in your series: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 1. I am sure these series will help me understand Anusaya Yamaka better. -------------------- Nina: Han, what is okasa. I understand that it is occasion, opportunity, but here, in the Yamaka? Han: My understanding of okaasa is limited to okaasa-loka, which is translated by scholars as the "World of Locations", the existence of countless universes including stars, planets, their satellites etc. (or) the Universe of Space which accommodate naama and ruupa. In Yamaka, I took it to be kaama-dhaatu, ruupa-dhaatu and aruupa-dhaatu, which refers to the planes of existence. But you, Sarah, and Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi said that they are the planes of cittas. One Dictionary gives the meaning of okaasa as room; open space; chance; permission. So, I am not very sure what okaasa means in Yamaka. Respectfully, Han #101187 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 12:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the present moment, to Ken H. kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Nina), --------- <. . .> N: > > Seeing arises and falls away and thus it is dukkha. H: > And more generally, peace is not to be found in it, and that would even be so if it did not fall away. ---------- I think I know what you are saying in the first part of your sentence: peace is not to be found in it because dukkha *is* found in it. That's for sure, but I am not so sure about your other hypothesis. If seeing did *not* fall away would it still be dukkha? I don't think so. I think that is why jhana was (before the Buddha taught differently) mistaken for Nibbana. In jhana meditation there is the concept of an object that is *not falling away* and that concept can potentially be maintained for immeasurably long periods. But not for eternity! And therefore the Buddha had to teach satipatthana. Jhana - so near and yet so far! :-) Ken H #101188 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 12:58 am Subject: piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m hantun1 Dear Nina, I found the following text in Sacca Vibhanga, where piyaruupa.m and saataruupa.m are mentioned. Do you have the English translation of this passage, please? ----------------------------- 2. Samudayasacca.m 203. Tattha katama.m dukkhasamudaya.m ariyasacca.m? Yaaya.m ta.nhaa ponobhavikaa [ponobbhavikaa (syaa. ka.)] nandiraagasahagataa tatratatraabhinandinii, seyyathida.m: kaamata.nhaa, bhavata.nhaa, vibhavata.nhaa. Saa kho panesaa ta.nhaa kattha uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, kattha nivisamaanaa nivisati? Ya.m loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m, etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Ki~nca loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m? Cakkhu.m loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Sota.m loke [pe] ghaana.m loke [pe] jivhaa loke [pe] kaayo loke [pe] mano loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Ruupaa loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Saddaa loke [pe] gandhaa loke [pe] rasaa loke [pe] pho.t.thabbaa loke [pe] dhammaa loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Sotavi~n~naa.na.m loke [pe] ghaanavi~n~naa.na.m loke [pe] jivhaavi~n~naa.na.m loke [pe] kaayavi~n~naa.na.m loke [pe] manovi~n~naa.na.m loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Cakkhusamphasso loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Sotasamphasso loke [pe] ghaanasamphasso loke [pe] jivhaasamphasso loke [pe] kaayasamphasso loke [pe] manosamphasso loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Cakkhusamphassajaa vedanaa loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Sotasamphassajaa vedanaa loke [pe] ghaanasamphassajaa vedanaa loke [pe] jivhaasamphassajaa vedanaa loke [pe] kaayasamphassajaa vedanaa loke [pe] manosamphassajaa vedanaa loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Ruupasa~n~naa loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Saddasa~n~naa loke [pe] gandhasa~n~naa loke [pe] rasasa~n~naa loke [pe] pho.t.thabbasa~n~naa loke [pe] dhammasa~n~naa loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Ruupasa~ncetanaa loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Saddasa~ncetanaa loke [pe] gandhasa~ncetanaa loke [pe] rasasa~ncetanaa loke [pe] pho.t.thabbasa~ncetanaa loke [pe] dhammasa~ncetanaa loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Ruupata.nhaa loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Saddata.nhaa loke [pe] gandhata.nhaa loke [pe] rasata.nhaa loke [pe] pho.t.thabbata.nhaa loke [pe] dhammata.nhaa loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Ruupavitakko loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati . Saddavitakko loke [pe] gandhavitakko loke [pe] rasavitakko loke [pe] pho.t.thabbavitakko loke [pe] dhammavitakko loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Ruupavicaaro loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Saddavicaaro loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati , ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Gandhavicaaro loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Rasavicaaro loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Pho.t.thabbavicaaro loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Dhammavicaaro loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m. Etthesaa ta.nhaa uppajjamaanaa uppajjati, ettha nivisamaanaa nivisati. Ida.m vuccati "dukkhasamudaya.m ariyasacca.m". ------------------------------ Respectfully, Han #101189 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 8, 2009 9:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment, to Ken H. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/8/2009 8:44:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard (and Nina), --------- <. . .> N: > > Seeing arises and falls away and thus it is dukkha. H: > And more generally, peace is not to be found in it, and that would even be so if it did not fall away. ---------- I think I know what you are saying in the first part of your sentence: peace is not to be found in it because dukkha *is* found in it. That's for sure, but I am not so sure about your other hypothesis. If seeing did *not* fall away would it still be dukkha? I don't think so. ------------------------------------------- Did you ever notice that what continues eventually becomes boring or even painful? When something continues we eventually want it to cease (or change), even something ostensibly pleasant. ------------------------------------------- I think that is why jhana was (before the Buddha taught differently) mistaken for Nibbana. In jhana meditation there is the concept of an object that is *not falling away* and that concept can potentially be maintained for immeasurably long periods. But not for eternity! And therefore the Buddha had to teach satipatthana. ----------------------------------------------- Look more carefully at the description of the jhanas, and how, for each one an inadequacy is found that results in further relinquishment. The move from jhana to higher jhana proceeds by observing inadequacy (a.k.a., dukkha) in a jhana, and letting go of an inadequate aspect of it. ---------------------------------------------- Jhana - so near and yet so far! :-) Ken H ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101190 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 4:45 am Subject: Re: Q. pt: Anusayas. ptaus1 Dear Nina and Chew, > > C: dhamma has no place to be stored. They arise when there are > > conditions for them to arise. When they have ceased, they > > disappeared. It is not like forces transfer from one citta to > > another citta. > > In the ultimate sense, there are only the four ultimate realities. > --------- > N:Quite right, there is no place to store. However, we can still > speak of the force (in pali: satti) of kamma, the co. speak of this. > Kamma is accumulated from one citta to another so that it can produce > result later on. pt: I've been thinking about this. For example, Bhikkhu Bodhi in ACM calls the 24 conditional relations "conditioning forces": (page 306)... "(3) the conditioning force of the condition (paccayasatti), the particular way in which the conditioning states function as conditions for the conditions states." This description as force seems to work well when there is one citta in succession to another, i.e. there is a transfer, or application, of force by one citta onto the other. However, this doesn't seem to work in the case of nirodha samapatti or in the case of inpercipient beings. As far as I read from UP (a couple of posts from Htoo), there's no namas at all during nirodha samapatti, only rupas for some time (produced by kamma, temperature and nutrition). If I remember correctly, it's the same with inpercipient beings - no namas at all, only for a lot longer. So, in those two cases "transfer of force" really doesn't seem to work as Chew suggests, because there's no cittas during these times that could transfer the force from one to another. And yet, after coming out of cessation, (or dying from inpercipient sphere), namas magically reappear again. I don't understand on what basis this happens? And what would be the correct way to understand the "force" simile in that case? Best wishes pt #101191 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 6:44 am Subject: Re: piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m szmicio Dear Han, > I found the following text in Sacca Vibhanga, where piyaruupa.m and saataruupa.m are mentioned. > Do you have the English translation of this passage, please? L: Here is Samudayasacca from Vibhanga, PTS translation. 2. The Truth of the cause (Samudayasacca.m) <<203. Tattha katama.m dukkhasamudaya.m ariyasacca.m? Yaaya.m ta.nhaa ponobhavikaa [ponobbhavikaa (syaa. ka.)] nandiraagasahagataa tatratatraabhinandinii, seyyathida.m kaamata.nhaa, bhavata.nhaa, vibhavata.nhaa.>> 203. Therein what is the Noble Truth of the cause of suffering? That craving, which is cause of becoming again, is accompanied by passionate lust, is strong passion for this and that. For example; craving for sense pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming. <> This same craving when arising where does it arise; when settling where does it settle? Whatever in the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; Herein when settling settles. In the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing? In the world eye is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world ear. In the world nose. In the world tonque. In the world body. In the world mind is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. <> In the world visible(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; Herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world audible(objects). In the world odorous(objects).In the world sapid(objects). In the world tangible(objects). In the world ideational(objects) are lovely things, pleasant things; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. <> In the world eye consciousness is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world ear consciousness. In the world nose consciousness. In the world tongue consciousness. In the world body consciousness. In the world mind consciousness is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; ----- <> In the world eye contact is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world ear contact. In the world nose contact. In the world tongue contact. In the world body contact. In the world mind contact is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; <> In the world feeling born of eye contact is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world feeling born of ear contact. In the world feeling born of nose contact. In the world feeling born of tongue contact. In the world feeling born of body contact. In the world feeling born of mind contact is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; <> In the world perception of visible(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world perception of audible(objects). In the world perception of odorous(objects). In the world perception of sapid(objects). In the world perception of tangible(objects). In the world perception of ideatioanal(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; ----------------- <> In the world volition concerning visible(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world volition concerning audible(objects). In the world volition concerning odorous(objects). In the world volition concerning sapid(objects). In the world volition concerning tangible(objects). In the world volition concerning ideational(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; <> In the world craving for visible(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world craving for audible(objects). In the world craving for odorous(objects). In the world craving for sapid(objects). In the world craving for tangible(objects). In the world craving for ideatioanal(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; <> In the world thinking of visible(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world thinking of audible(objects). In the world thinking of odorous(objects). In the world thinking of sapid(objects). In the world thinking of tangible(objects). In the world thinking of ideational(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; <> In the world examination of visible(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world examination of audible(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world examination of odorous(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world examination of sapid(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world examination of tangible(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles. In the world examination of ideatioanal(objects) is a lovely thing, pleasant thing; herein this craving when arising arises; herein when settling settles; This is called The Noble Truth of the cause of suffering. <> ----------------- Best wishes Lukas #101192 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 7:12 am Subject: unpleasant vipaka szmicio Dear All, Why I need to get unpleasant vipaka? L. #101193 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 7:35 am Subject: Vineyya MEANS Vinayitvaa (by removing) Re: Some Questions abhidhammika Dear Scott, Jon, Lukas, Phil, Howard, Alex, Freawaru, Nina, Robert K, Sarah, Mike N, Chris F How are you? _________________________________________________________________ Lukas: "There is nothing there about cutting of defilements first." Scott: When the kusala dhammaa of which siila consists have arisen, are in ascendance, are present, or however one wishes to state this, then the akusala dhammaa cannot arise, are not in ascendance, are not present. This is natural. This does not lend to being turned into an instruction. Such thinking is merely wishful. ______________________________________________________________ Scott wrote: "This does not lend to being turned into an instruction. Such thinking is merely wishful." Scott, what do you mean by the above statement? Please remember, Scott, that I am merely carrying out the duties of a Traditional Theravada Teacher in line with the Buddha's instructions in Section 5, Silakkhandhavaggo, Dighanikaayo. If you feel that my writings are not palatable to you or anyone like you, you all are welcome to ignore and skip them. Perhaps, I may be wasting my time and energy here. After writing some replies, one to you, one to Robert K, one to Jon, and one to Freawaru under the thread `Enter the Abhidhammika 4', I may skip writing here for a while until Phil posts some questions to me. Ironically, I did not have any plan to create the thread `Enter the Abhidhammaika 4'. I happened to write a post to merely say Saadhu 3 times to Howard. And, Sarah replied to my post with strong emotions and wrong speech by misusing A.t.thasaalinii as she did Vanapattha Suttam. I was unable to let Sarah get away with her misuse of A.t.thasaalini. So the result was `Enter the Abhidhammika 4'. Whenever I start the thread `Enter the Abhidhammika [ ? ]' series, it will be hard-hitting. They are meant for thick-skinned readers. So, avoid reading them if you are soft-skinned! I may start one for Jon as he made some blunders in his replies to Howard when I have more spare time. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #101194 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 8:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m nilovg Dear Han and Lukas, good teamwork! The mentioning of eye-consciousness as piyaruupa sataruupa clarifies that not only ruupa is meant here, but also naama. Thank you both, very helpful, Nina. Op 9-okt-2009, om 2:58 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I found the following text in Sacca Vibhanga, where piyaruupa.m and > saataruupa.m are mentioned. > Do you have the English translation of this passage, please? #101195 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment, to Ken H. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 8-okt-2009, om 17:06 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > As Howard says, it is important to know the tilakkhana, the dependent > origination and the four noble truths. Yes, but they pertain to our > life now. > ------------------------------------- > Yes. > ------------------------------------- > > They are not a set of doctrines we have to know merely > intellectually. > -------------------------------------- > Yes! > ------ N: :-)) except for what you stated : And more generally, peace is not to be found in it, and that would even be so if it did not fall away. ------ As to what you say: The present can be known, it is not ungraspable, and the very understanding of the present leads to letting go. Nina. #101196 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co, subco, anutiika, matika to Yamaka. chewsadhu Dear Nina, I would like to have all of the subco: anutiika, matika of Yamaka too. Thanks and Sadhu. ====== In Khandha Yamaka: 2-1-1-2. Positive (Anuloma) Plane (Okaasa) 51. (Ka) yattha ruupakkhandho uppajjati tattha vedanaakkhandho uppajjatiiti? Asa~n~nasatte tattha ruupakkhandho uppajjati, no ca tattha vedanākkhandho uppajjati. Pa~ncavokaare tattha ruupakkhandho ca uppajjati vedanaakkhandho ca uppajjati. (a) Matter aggregate is arising at a plane. Is feeling aggregate arising at that plane? At the plane of non-percipient beings, matter aggregate is arising; but [it is] not that feeling aggregate is arising at that plane. At the five-aggregate plane, matter aggregate is arising and feeling aggregate also is arising. ====== C: It tells us that matter aggregate is able to arise at the plane of non-percipient beings, but not feeling aggregate. And both matter aggregate and feeling aggregate are able to arise at the five-aggregate plane. It shows that okaasa here is talking about the planes of existence. ===== In Aayatana Yamaka: 2-1-1-2. Positive (Anuloma) Plane (Okaasa) (Ka) yattha cakkhaayatana.m uppajjati tattha ghaanaayatana.m uppajjatiiti? Ruupaavacare tattha cakkhaayatana.m uppajjati, no ca tattha ghaanaayatanaṃ uppajjati. Kaamaavacare tattha cakkhaayatana~nca uppajjati ghaanaayatana~nca uppajjati. (Kha) yattha vaa pana ghaanaayatana.m uppajjati tattha cakkhaayatana.m uppajjatiiti? Aamantaa. (a) Eye-base is arising at a plane. Is nose-base arising at that plane? At the fine-material plane, eye-base is arising; but [it is] not that nose-base is arising at that plane. At the sensuous plane, eye-base is arising and nose-base also is arising. (b) Nose-base is arising at a plane. Is eye-base arising at that plane? Yes. ======= C: It tells us that eye-base is able to arise at the fine-material plane, but not nose-base. And, eye-base and nose-base are able to arise at the sensuous plane. Here, okaasa is also talking about planes of existence. ====== In Sacca Yamaka: Positive (Anuloma) Plane (Okaasa) 29. (Ka) yattha dukkhasacca.m uppajjati tattha samudayasacca.m uppajjatiiti? Asa~n~nasatte tattha dukkhasaccaṃ uppajjati, no ca tattha samudayasacca.m uppajjati. Catuvokaare pa~ncavokaare tattha dukkhasacca~nca uppajjati samudayasacca~nca uppajjati. (Kha) yattha vaa panape? Aamantaa. 29. (a) Suffering-truth is arising at a plane. Is origination-truth arising at that plane? At the plane of non-percipient beings, suffering-truth is arising; but [it is] not that origination-truth is arising at that plane. At the four-aggregate plane, and at the five-aggregate plane, suffering-truth is arising and origination-truth also is arising. (b) Or, [origination-truth is arising] at a plane. [Is suffering-truth arising at that plane]? Yes. ======== C: It tells us that suffering-truth is able to arise at the plane of non-percipient beings, but not origination-truth. And, suffering-truth and origination-truth are able to arise at the four-aggregate plane and also at the five-aggregate plane. It is clear that here okaasa is talking about planes of existence. IMO, the okaaso of Anusaya Yamaka also refers to planes of existence. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #101197 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 8:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m hantun1 Dear Lukas (and Nina), Lukas: Here is Samudayasacca from Vibhanga, PTS translation. Han: Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Respectfully, Han p.s. Can one get PTS translation of Vibhanga on-line? #101198 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 8:55 am Subject: Re: unpleasant vipaka kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear All, > > Why I need to get unpleasant vipaka? > > L. > Hi Lukas, As I understand unpleasant vipaka, it is a body-door citta that experiences an undesirable tactile object. That kind of citta is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. Other vipaka cittas (of the eye, ear, nose and tongue doors) have neutral (neither pleasant nor unpleasant) feeling. And that applies regardless of whether their objects were desirable, desirable-neutral or undesirable. Why do we have vipaka? Every dhamma apart from nibbana has a cause, and vipaka dhammas are caused by kamma. Ken H #101199 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 9:05 am Subject: Re: Q. pt: Anusayas. chewsadhu Dear pt, The conditioning forces (paccayasatti) are the function of the conditioning states to condition the conditioned states. What we have for the conditioning states are only citta, cetasika, ruupa, nibbaana, and pa~n~natti. And the conditioned states are only citta, cetasika, and ruupa. The phenomena that exists in the ultimate sense are only citta, cetasika, ruupa, and nibbaana. What we call the conditioning forces are only the function of the conditioning states. One citta arises and ceases, then the next citta arises and ceases. When the former citta ceased, it ceased thoroughly. When the latter citta is arising, it is because there are conditions for it to arise. And the ceasing of the former citta also become one the conditions for the latter citta to arise. The ability of condition is called conditioning forces in that sense. Nothing is transferred from the former citta to the latter citta. It is just like new thing does not become old. Far thing does not come to near. Subtler thing does not become gross. IMO, the co. speak of this. Kamma is accumulated from one citta to another so that it can produce result later on. It is just in this sense that they talked about the accumulation or transferring of forces. Just like, kaamaraaga is underlying in one ordinary being. When the kusala citta is arising to this being, it does not mean that the lobha is there. It is just that the lobha is able to arise again to this being, that we say kaamaraaga is still underlying in this being. To think that the forces are passing from one to another one, it sounds like it exists at there permanently. Or may be we can ask ourselves, are these forces citta? are these forces cetasika? are these forces ruupa? etc. Please let me know, if I'm wrong. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew