#101200 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 9:45 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, There were many monks, nuns and laypeople who developed the Path and realized the goal, each in their own situation. The development of the eightfold Path does not mean that one should try to be detached immediately from all pleasant objects and from existence. All realities, including attachment, should be known and understood. So long as there are conditions for attachment it arises. The development of understanding cannot be forced, it must be done in a natural way. Only thus can understanding, knowing and seeing, very gradually lead to detachment. When one is a layfollower one enjoys all the pleasant things of life, but understanding of realities can be developed. The monk who observes the rules of monkhood leads a different kind of life, but this does not mean that he already is without attachment to pleasant objects. He too should develop understanding naturally, in his own situation, and come to know his own defilements. The development of the Buddha’s Path is very gradual, it is a difficult and long way. It may take many lives before there can be the attainment of enlightenment. Since the development of the Path is so difficult there may be doubt whether it makes sense to start on this Path. It is complicated to understand all phenomena of life, including our own mental states, and it seems impossible to eradicate defilements. It is useless to expect results soon, but it is beneficial to start to investigate what our life really is: phenomena which are impermanent and thus unsatisfactory. When we start on the Buddha’s Path we begin to see our many faults and vices, not only the coarse ones but also the more subtle ones which may not have been so obvious. Before studying the Buddhist teachings, selfish motives when performing deeds of generosity were unnoticed. When the deep, underlying, impure motives for one’s deeds are realized is that not a gain? A sudden change of character cannot be expected soon as a result of the Buddhist teachings, but what is unwholesome can be realized as unwholesome, and what is wholesome can be realized as wholesome. In that way there will be more truthfulness, more sincerity in our actions, speech and thoughts. The disadvantage and danger of unwholesomeness and the benefit of wholesomeness will be seen more and more clearly. -------- Nina. #101201 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 9:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co, subco, anutiika, matika to Yamaka. nilovg Dear Chew, That is very helpful, thank you very much. Nina. Op 9-okt-2009, om 10:20 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > It is clear that here okaasa is talking about planes of existence. > > IMO, the okaaso of Anusaya Yamaka also refers to planes of existence. #101202 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 9:56 am Subject: distressed by akusala. nilovg Dear Lukas, I htought of you when posting this today: You are distressed about your akusala, but when hiri and ottappa arise, the disadvantage of akusala is seen, there is shrinking back from them. They perform their functions and when understanding is more developed it conditions the arising of hiri and ottappa more often. When you find that understanding is too weak: listen more, consider more. That will be a condiiton for more confidence in kusala. Do not become disheartened. -------- Nina. #101203 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 12:08 pm Subject: Vineyya MEANS Vinayitvaa (by removing) Re: Some Questions scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Regarding: Me: "When the kusala dhammaa of which siila consists have arisen, are in ascendance, are present, or however one wishes to state this, then the akusala dhammaa cannot arise, are not in ascendance, are not present. This is natural. This does not lend to being turned into an instruction. Such thinking is merely wishful." S: "Scott, what do you mean by the above statement?" Scott: Since the aggregates are not subject to command but are, rather, subject only to conditions, I think it is wrong and rather concrete to think that a statement about the nature of dhammaa - the natural way of things - can be understood to represent a simple set of instructions. I mean to suggest that when any kusala dhamma has arisen, there is no akusala at that moment. I mean to suggest that one cannot simply wish kusala into predominance and that to imagine a set of instructions that one can perform in order to bring kusala to the fore is simply daydreaming. S: "Please remember, Scott, that I am merely carrying out the duties of a Traditional Theravada Teacher in line with the Buddha's instructions in Section 5, Silakkhandhavaggo, Dighanikaayo." Scott: Suan, I fail to see upon what basis you set yourself out in this fashion. I'm just speaking for myself here, but I don't recognize this self-appointment and self-ordination of yours at all. As far as I'm concerned you offer your opinions as do the rest of us, albeit in a rather high-on-your-horse manner at times. You can't just start saying you're a teacher - well many can and many do but it's like a man saying that he is now a woman or a dog saying that she is now a sheep - saying it doesn't make it so. S: "If you feel that my writings are not palatable to you or anyone like you, you all are welcome to ignore and skip them." Scott: I try to look at the scholarship with which you offer your opinions because, like you, I appreciate the Paa.li and, while a total neophyte, enjoy considering the Dhamma from the point of view of it's 'original' language. I've ignored plenty of the bells and whistles that accompany your posts. I've actually been disappointed with your not wanting to consider the Paa.li with me in a non-partisan fashion. I can live with your lack of kindness towards me, of course, but since you have skill in the language, and I want to consider it, why not offer yourself in this way? I mean you don't even include my name in most of your posts. Luckily I'm thick-skinned (see below) and don't care but clearly you are just being mean to me. ;-) S: "Perhaps, I may be wasting my time and energy here." Scott: I think this sentiment would be much reduced if you simply interacted as a fellow Dhamma student rather than as the so-called teacher you like to portray. A common reaction by other self-appointed teachers who show up on this list is to threaten to take their ball and go home. There's no need for that, in my opinion, although I don't mind either way. Why not simply skip all the I'm-here-to-set-you-all-straight vibe and just discuss things like the ordinary guy you are? S: "After writing some replies, one to you, one to Robert K, one to Jon, and one to Freawaru under the thread `Enter the Abhidhammika 4', I may skip writing here for a while until Phil posts some questions to me." Scott: Of course, that would be fine. I see where you like to imagine yourself as rewarding views you appreciate, as if you would, thereby, somehow destabilize the list. Why would a Dhamma Teacher seek to be destuctive? S: "Ironically, I did not have any plan to create the thread `Enter the Abhidhammaika 4'. I happened to write a post to merely say Saadhu 3 times to Howard. And, Sarah replied to my post with strong emotions and wrong speech by misusing A.t.thasaalinii as she did Vanapattha Suttam. I was unable to let Sarah get away with her misuse of A.t.thasaalini. So the result was `Enter the Abhidhammika 4'." Scott: Well, Suan, it was no one but you who created the title. You're like the gun-slinging stranger of the spaghetti westerns come to clean up the town. ;-) And I daresay your attempt to reward Howard was a rather self-centred one and didn't at all consider how Howard might feel being used by you in that fashion. Phil fell for it though ;-) (Flattery will get you anywhere, eh?) It's not like you want to create a gang of bullies on the list is it? ;-) I'm not suggesting that you should actually be able to totally control the dosa or maana which arises - I can't either - but I think you can do better (as I wish I could do, but if wishes were...) ;-) SP "Whenever I start the thread `Enter the Abhidhammika [ ? ]' series, it will be hard-hitting. They are meant for thick-skinned readers. So, avoid reading them if you are soft-skinned! I may start one for Jon as he made some blunders in his replies to Howard when I have more spare time." Scott: Are you kidding me Suan? You are words on a screen, man. I think you should simply tone the whole teacher vibe way down since you might be one of the few who considers you in that way. I'd much rather you decided to be kind to me and help me learn more about Paa.li than focus on enhancing this whole teacher thing of yours. But I'm just selfish - it's all about me. I don't mind either way though, dig? Just try to be cool... Sincerely, Scott, ordinary guy on the list. #101204 From: "sprlrt" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 1:06 pm Subject: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 8 maha kusala sprlrt Hi, I've grouped together the eight maha kusala types of cittas listed in the Dhammasangani, Four are associated with understanding, ñànasampayutta, pañña cetasika (1, 2, 5, 6), four are dissociated from understanding, ñànavipppayutta (3,4,7,8). Four are accompanied with pleasant feeling, somanassasahagatam (1,2,3,4), four by neutral feeling, upekkhasahagatam (5,6,7,8). Four are unprompted/strong (asankhàrena) 1,3,5,7, four are prompted/weak (sasankhàrena) 2,4,6,8. Alberto Dhammasangani Table of contents (màtika): Kusala dhammas, akusala dhammas and abyàkata dhammas. .... The arising of consciousness (cittuppada) The 8 [maha] kusala [cittas] of the sense-plane (kàmaavacarakusala) 1.(1st), 146.(2nd), 147.(3rd), 149.(4th), 150.(5th), 156.(6th), 157.(7th), 159.(8th) - Which dhammas are kusala? At that moment when a kusala citta is arising, accompanied by pleasant feeling [1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th], / accompanied by neutral feeling, and associated with understanding [1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th], / and dissociated from understanding, [and unprompted (strong) 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th] / and prompted (weak), concerned about the object which is [either] visible, or udible, or smellable, or tastable, or tangible, or whatever-[other]-dhamma object. At that moment there is: contact, feeling, memory, intention, consciousness, initial, and sustaining application, joy, pleasant feeling [1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th], / neutral feeling, one-pointedness of mind, the faculty of confidence, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of understanding [1st, 2nd, 5rd, 6th], the faculty of the mind, the faculty of pleasantness [1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th], the faculty of life, right view [1st, 2nd, 5rd, 6th], right thinking, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration, the power of confidence, the power of energy, the power of mindfulness, the power of concentration, the power of understanding [1st, 2nd, 5rd, 6th], the power of shying [akusala], the power of dreading [akusala], unattachment, non-aversion, non-ignorance [1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th], uncovetousness, non-anger, right view [1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th], shying [akusala], dreading [akusala], tranquillity of mind, of its concomitants, lightness of mind, of its concomitants, pliability of mind, of its concomitants, wieldiness of mind, of its concomitants, well-disposition of mind, of its concomitants, straightness of mind, of its concomitants, mindfulness, clear understanding [1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th], calm, insight [1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th], grip, balance. [DhsA. "Insight: it sees the dhammas by their inherent characterstics, by their impermanence etc." Aniccaadivasena vividhehi aakaarehi dhamme passati'ti vipassanaa. The objects of vipassana don't include paññatti (concepts) and nibbana, only sankhara (conditioned) dhammas, the five khandhas.] These, or whatever other non-rùpa dhamma arisen by conditions, are the dhammas that are there at that moment. These dhammas are kusala. #101205 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 9:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] unpleasant vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 10/9/2009 3:12:49 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear All, Why I need to get unpleasant vipaka? L. =============================== As I understand it. the short answer is "Because of unwholesome kamma." Of course, not all that comes to us is due to our own intention and intentional action. In any case, more important than whether what comes to us is felt as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is how we react to it. Reacting with craving/aversion or with unawareness (especially in the case of neutral feeling) keeps the wheel of dukkha rolling. With metta, Howard Samsara /All around me are familiar faces Worn out places, worn out faces Bright and early for their daily races Going nowhere, going nowhere Their tears are filling up their glasses No expression, no expression Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow No tomorrow, no tomorrow And I find it kind of funny I find it kind of sad The dreams in which I'm dying Are the best I've ever had I find it hard to tell you I find it hard to take When people run in circles It's a very, very Mad World Mad world/ (Song Lyric, Mad World) #101206 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 1:42 pm Subject: the present moment. nilovg Dear Ken H, et all, There is only the present moment. I am following a Thai recording where Kh Sujin explains to beginners all the cittas of the different sense-door processes and mind-door processes. In between she stresses all the time the goal of our study: just to understand this moment. The goal is to eliminate ignorance and to eliminate the wrong view of self. It is so good to be reminded of the goal of our study, otherwise we may get lost in classifications. One may understand a little or a great deal, but we should remember that it is not self who understands. We may want to have more understanding than we actually have at this moment, and that is clinging to a self, that is wrong. It seems that there is seeing that lasts for some time, but actually there are many different cittas arising and falling away so fast. Visible object is experienced by cittas arising in a sense-door process and then, after there have to be bhavangacittas, by cittas arising in a mind-door process. The moment citta experiences an object is compared to a flash of lightning. It is so short. We cannot choose any object that appears at the present moment, neither can we choose the object that appears just before death; that is conditioned by the kamma that will produce the next rebirth. That object may be pleasant or unpleasant, depending on kamma. I wrote my Abhidhamma in Daily Life, dealing with all the different cittas, but still, I find it useful to listen again to the explanation about the processes of cittas and to be reminded again that it is citta, not self, that sees, experiences different objects, that is angry or attached. When we are angry it is citta, not self who is angry, but we forget this. We think that we have akusala and that is clinging to an idea of self, that is wrong. This shows that we have to listen again, consider the truth of anatta more. It never is enough. When we see the value of listening, we have confidence to listen again and again. There are many degrees of understanding the present moment. We think of stories about annoying people, but each citta falls away. There seems to be a lasting period of thinking, but it is already past. "There is nothing that remains", Kh Sujin emphasized. Khun Vira (who lost his wife) repeated this: "There is nothing that remains". Surely this helps when we have problems facing certain people or when we have lost dear people. ****** Nina. #101207 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 9:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment, to Ken H. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/9/2009 4:07:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: As to what you say: The present can be known, it is not ungraspable, and the very understanding of the present leads to letting go. ============================== Nina, I chose my words carefully. I didn't say we do not experience the present moment. That, in fact is all we ever directly experience. What I said was that it is ungraspable, and I do maintain that to be so, for "Time waits for no man," and "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, moves on: nor all thy piety nor wit shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, nor all thy tears wash out a word of it." To know the present moment as it is is to know its ephemeral, ungraspable, insubstantial, unsatisfying, and empty nature. With metta, Howard Emptiness /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #101208 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the present moment, to Ken H. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 9-okt-2009, om 15:55 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, I chose my words carefully. I didn't say we do not experience > the present moment. That, in fact is all we ever directly experience. ------- N: Yes, I agree. Ungraspable can be explained as: you cannot get hold of it, or as: it cannot be grasped, understood. I thought of the last meaning, but then I had after-thoughts and realized that you had meant the first meaning. Visible object appears and is already gone like a flash of lightning; the nimitta of it, the sign only remains. But we can learn to be aware of its characteristic: a rupa, not self, only a dhamma. Nina. #101209 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 2:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. pt: Anusayas. nilovg Dear pt, I am glad you study Htoo's writings. I remember him fondly. Op 9-okt-2009, om 6:45 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > This description as force seems to work well when there is one > citta in succession to another, i.e. there is a transfer, or > application, of force by one citta onto the other. However, this > doesn't seem to work in the case of nirodha samapatti or in the > case of inpercipient beings. As far as I read from UP (a couple of > posts from Htoo), there's no namas at all during nirodha samapatti, > only rupas for some time (produced by kamma, temperature and > nutrition). If I remember correctly, it's the same with > inpercipient beings - no namas at all, only for a lot longer. ------- N: As U Narada in his Guide to Conditional Relations (p. 20) explains: Proximity Force is not destroyed by the intervention of Materiality. : "Then, after emerging from this attainment, the Anaagaami fruition consciousness arises. Although metariality has intervened between the two mental states, faultless neither- perception-nor-non-perception impulsion is related to Anaagaamii Fruition-consciousness by proximity condiiton. This is stated in the Investigation Chapter of the Faultless Triplet...> (N: In the tetx of the Pa.t.thana). He explains that it is similar in the case of rebirth in the asa~n~na satta plane which also comes in between two cittas. The dying-citta of the sensuous plane is related to the rebirth-consciousness in the sensuous plane (after death in the asa~n~nasatta plane) by way of proximity condition. ---------- > pt: So, in those two cases "transfer of force" really doesn't seem > to work as Chew suggests, because there's no cittas during these > times that could transfer the force from one to another. And yet, > after coming out of cessation, (or dying from inpercipient sphere), > namas magically reappear again. I don't understand on what basis > this happens? And what would be the correct way to understand the > "force" simile in that case? ------ N: So, as you see, it is not magically, but because of proximity- condition. As to force, satti, U Narada in his intro to his translation of the first part of the Pa.t.thaana, 'Conditional Relations', explains that in the Pa.t.thaana A dhamma can possess many conditioning forces. Force of root, force of predominance, etc. ------- Nina. #101210 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 2:52 pm Subject: Vineyya MEANS Vinayitvaa (by removing) Re: Some Questions abhidhammika Dear Scott, Robert K, Lukas, Phil, Howard, Alex, Freawaru, Nina, Jon, Sarah, Mike N, Chris F How are you? I wrote the following: __________________________________________________ The commentary on Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam also explained as follows. "Tattha vineyyaati tadangavinayena vaa vikkhambhanavinayena vaa vinayitvaa." "In that expression, the phrase 'vineyya' means "by removing (covetousness and discontent) through counteractive removal or through intense removal." The above explanation agrees with my following translation given in the original post: "Vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam" means in English "by removing covetousness and discontent in the world". __________________________________________________ Scott, you wrote the following: Me: "When the kusala dhammaa of which siila consists have arisen, are in ascendance, are present, or however one wishes to state this, then the akusala dhammaa cannot arise, are not in ascendance, are not present. This is natural. This does not lend to being turned into an instruction. Such thinking is merely wishful." S: "Scott, what do you mean by the above statement?" Scott: Since the aggregates are not subject to command but are, rather, subject only to conditions, I think it is wrong and rather concrete to think that a statement about the nature of dhammaa - the natural way of things - can be understood to represent a simple set of instructions. I mean to suggest that when any kusala dhamma has arisen, there is no akusala at that moment. I mean to suggest that one cannot simply wish kusala into predominance and that to imagine a set of instructions that one can perform in order to bring kusala to the fore is simply daydreaming. _____________________________________________________ Scott, I still do not see any connection between what I wrote and what you wrote and answered. I am more interested to know clearly the main issue of my question and your answer. So far, I did not see any linking you established between ("Tattha vineyyaati tadangavinayena vaa vikkhambhanavinayena vaa vinayitvaa." "Vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam" means in English "by removing covetousness and discontent in the world".) and your responses to those Pali statements. Apology to you if you felt that I was not kind to you! I thought that you were not a Buddhist. I think that you once wrote to that effect. Again, I have to mention something you don't like. As a Traditional Theravada Teacher, I am reluctant to impose my teachings on non-Buddhists. So I did not include your name in addressing my posts. You wrote: "Suan, I fail to see upon what basis you set yourself out in this fashion. I'm just speaking for myself here, but I don't recognize this self-appointment and self-ordination of yours at all. As far as I'm concerned you offer your opinions as do the rest of us, albeit in a rather high-on-your-horse manner at times. You can't just start saying you're a teacher - well many can and many do but it's like a man saying that he is now a woman or a dog saying that she is now a sheep - saying it doesn't make it so." Scott, it is not self-appointment and self-ordination. Through my posts, I transmit my knowledge obtained from Pali texts both canonical and commentarial. I do this for my paññaapaaramiitaa. Scott, you wrote: "You can't just start saying you're a teacher -" Yes, I can because I teach. This evening I was writing a reply to Robert K so that he can learn my teachings here as well as upload them to his forum if he likes them. I teach and transmit authentic Theravada teachings. So I am a Traditional Theravada Teacher, regardless of you recognize me as such or not. Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #101211 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 4:16 pm Subject: Vineyya MEANS Vinayitvaa (by removing) Re: Some Questions scottduncan2 Dear Suan, Regarding: S: "The commentary on Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam also explained as follows. "Tattha vineyyaati tadangavinayena vaa vikkhambhanavinayena vaa vinayitvaa." "In that expression, the phrase 'vineyya' means 'by removing (covetousness and discontent) through counteractive removal or through intense removal.' The above explanation agrees with my following translation given in the original post: 'Vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam' means in English 'by removing covetousness and discontent in the world'. Me: "When the kusala dhammaa of which siila consists have arisen, are in ascendance, are present, or however one wishes to state this, then the akusala dhammaa cannot arise, are not in ascendance, are not present. This is natural. This does not lend to being turned into an instruction. Such thinking is merely wishful...Since the aggregates are not subject to command but are, rather, subject only to conditions, I think it is wrong and rather concrete to think that a statement about the nature of dhammaa - the natural way of things -can be understood to represent a simple set of instructions. I mean to suggest that when any kusala dhamma has arisen, there is no akusala at that moment. I mean to suggest that one cannot simply wish kusala into predominance and that to imagine a set of instructions that one can perform in order to bring kusala to the fore is simply daydreaming." S: "Scott...So far, I did not see any linking you established between ('Tattha vineyyaati tadangavinayena vaa vikkhambhanavinayena vaa vinayitvaa.' 'Vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam' means in English 'by removing covetousness and discontent in the world'.) and your responses to those Pali statements. Scott: I understand you to suggest that the 'by removing covetousness...' means literally that all one has to do is to take some steps and systematically go about removing covetousness etc. like as a first step or something. I'm suggesting that covetousness is removed when non-covetousness arises and only when this occurs and not because one ignorantly thinks one is doing it all by one's self by means of something one thinks is his or her own effort. Show me in the texts where your particular opinion exists. So far you simply explain your point by reiterating it, which hardly counts as a demonstration except of your fondness for your opinion. ;-) S: "Apology to you if you felt that I was not kind to you! I thought that you were not a Buddhist. I think that you once wrote to that effect." Scott: That's it, Suan. Let's just be kind to Buddhists. We can kill everyone else off, right? ;-) You may be referring to opinions I've offered in the past about the totally made-up, missing-the-boat, destructive religionism that people call 'buddhism.' When you create yourself as a 'teacher' and go around telling others how to think and that you know best and that you speak for the Buddha and all that, then you, my friend, are right in the thick of it as far as I'm concerned. Go right ahead. I don't happen to buy a bit of it. I totally think the Buddha is it. I am really, really happy, despite my virtually total lack of understanding, to have had the chance to even consider the Dhamma at all in this particular lifetime. S: "Again, I have to mention something you don't like. As a Traditional Theravada Teacher, I am reluctant to impose my teachings on non-Buddhists. So I did not include your name in addressing my posts." Scott: Like, don't like - this isn't relevant. I really don't care what you think you are, Suan - not in the petulant sort 'I don't care' fashion but rather more like I really just don't care; it doesn't matter to me in the least. I'd suggest, however, that you expand your reluctance to include imposing your 'teachings' on anyone - not just the non-buddhists who won't know what they're missing. You, like all of us here, are merely expressing your opinions. S: "Scott, it is not self-appointment and self-ordination. Through my posts, I transmit my knowledge obtained from Pali texts both canonical and commentarial. I do this for my pa~n~naapaaramiitaa." Scott: How does the perfection of wisdom come about through the polemical transmission of opinions? Wisdom is not yours to perfect, Suan. Show me some textual support for your notion of the perfection of wisdom, if you would. To me, it appears as if you would control and manipulate pa~n~naa - as if pa~n~naa could be controlled and manipulated by you or me or anyone. I suppose next you'll be suggesting that there are a set of steps whereby one can, simply by following them, cause the perfection of pa~n~naa to occur by will of some non-existent concptual entity known as self. Me: "You can't just start saying you're a teacher -" S: "Yes, I can because I teach." Scott: ;-) You're kidding, right? S: "I teach and transmit authentic Theravada teachings. So I am a Traditional Theravada Teacher, regardless of you recognize me as such or not." Scott: It's okay, Suan. I don't mind. I'm a Green Hat regardless of whether or not you recognize me as such. And that's making the exact same claim that you are. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #101212 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 6:20 pm Subject: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Now follows parts of the Thai study on anusayas I translated. Parts of the co to the anusaya yamaka are incorporated. --------- Issues 1: Are there latent tendencies? 2: What are the latent tendencies? 3: Can the latent tendencies be eradicated by the eightfold Path? **** Chapter 1 Are there Latent Tendencies? Conclusion of the first Issue : there are latent tendencies: they are realities each with their own distinct characteristic. The reasons for this conclusion: I: The latent tendencies are subtle defilements which are realities each with their own characteristic. They are enumerated in the Tipitaka and the Commentaries, where it is stated that the Buddha, the Fully Enlightened One, understood these by his perfect knowledge of beings’ biasses and underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåna). The “Knowledge of beings’ biases and underlying tendencies” is mentioned in the “Path of Discrimination” , “Patisambhidåmagga” of the Khuddaka Nikåya, in the Måtika (Table of Contents), among the seventythree kinds of knowledge. These latent tendencies are further explained in its Commentary, the “Saddhammappakåsiní” under the Explanation (Niddesa) of Knowledge of beings’ biasses and underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåna). The “Path of Discrimination”, in the Måtika, mentions the “Knowledge of beings’ biases and underlying tendencies” as the sixtynineth kind of knowledge among the seventythree kinds of knowledge. This knowledge is not shared by disciples, it is only the Buddha who has this knowledge. We read in the “Path of Discrimination”: “There are seventythree kinds of knowledge and among these the first sixtyseven are shared by disciples. The last six are are not shared by disciples but are exclusively knowledges of the Buddha. These are: penetration of others’ faculties, knowledge of beings’ biases and underlying tendencies, knowledge of the twin metamorphosis, knowledge of the great compassion, omniscient knowledge and unobstructed knowledge [2] .” The Commentary to the “Path of Discrimination” gives more explanations about the knowledge of beings’ biases and underlying tendencies. As to the word “beings” we read in the “Kindred Sayings” (III, Khandhavagga, Ch XXIII, § 2, A being) that beings are involved in sensuous desire (chandha råga) with regard to the khandha of material phenomena and so on, and that they are thus called beings, sattå [3]. The text states that the Buddha said to Rådha: “That desire, Rådha, that lust, that lure, that craving which is concerned with body,- one is entangled thereby, fast entangled thereby, therefore is one called a being. That desire, that lust, that lure, that craving which is concerned with feeling, with perception (saññå), the activities, consciousness,- one is entangled thereby, fast entangled thereby, therefore is one called a being.” ------------- 2. The penetration of others’ faculties is the Buddha’s knowledge of other people’s capabilities or their lack of it to develop understanding which can penetrate the four noble Truths. His knowledge of the twin metamorphosis is his ability to perform the miracle of emitting water and fire from different parts of his body. His knowledge of the great compassion is the compassion which moved him to become the Sammåsambuddha and teach others to develop the wisdom leading to liberation from the cycle of birth and death. 3. Satta is derived from sant, existing. It can mean who exists in the cycle, or who is entangled. So long as one is entangled in the five khandhas there is no end to the cycle. There is also a word association with satta, attached to, from sañjati. -------------- Nina. #101213 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] unpleasant vipaka szmicio Dear Howard, Ken and all Thanks for your answers. They are very helpful. > As I understand it. the short answer is "Because of unwholesome > kamma." Of course, not all that comes to us is due to our own intention and > intentional action. In any case, more important than whether what comes to us is > felt as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is how we react to it. > Reacting > with craving/aversion or with unawareness (especially in the case of neutral > feeling) keeps the wheel of dukkha rolling. L: so vipaka is conditioned by kamma and misery arises. But found myself that when there is pleasant feeling in my life I forget Dhamma, and when somethin that is unpleasant happens i started to remember and grieve. I cant stop griveing. I forgot Acharn saying citta, the characteristic of experience now. Maybe I am decaying now? > Samsara > > /All around me are familiar faces > Worn out places, worn out faces > Bright and early for their daily races > Going nowhere, going nowhere > Their tears are filling up their glasses > No expression, no expression > Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow > No tomorrow, no tomorrow > And I find it kind of funny > I find it kind of sad > The dreams in which I'm dying > Are the best I've ever had > I find it hard to tell you > I find it hard to take > When people run in circles > It's a very, very > Mad World > Mad world/ > > (Song Lyric, Mad World) L: Great song. Great tune and words. best wishes L. I dont want to be forgetful. #101214 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Oct 9, 2009 11:39 pm Subject: Infinite Loving-Kindness! bhikkhu0 Friends: Friendly Loving Kindness Beams, Blazes and Shines! Metta is defined thus: Loving-Kindness has the mode of friendliness as characteristic. Its natural function is to promote friendliness. It manifests as disappearance of ill-will. Its source is seeing with kindness. When succeeding, then it eliminates all angry enmity. When it fails, then it degenerates into egocentric lust and desire. It can be practiced anywhere and at anytime, but ideally sitting cross-legged in a quiet secluded place and then whole-heartedly wishing, first beaming it out in front, then to the right, then back, then to the left and finally below and above in this very effective and exhaustive way: May I be happy and free from suffering... May I keep myself free from hostility, trouble and thereby live happily... May I become happy in this way by repeated training of this excellent goodwill praxis... Just as I want happiness, absence of pain, life and not death, so do all other beings! Therefore: May all beings become thus happy... May all breathing things become thus happy... May all creatures become thus happy... May all deities become thus happy... May all human beings become thus happy... May all who have form become thus happy... May all the Noble and not Noble become thus happy... May all those in the states of deprivation become thus happy... By being freed from all enmity, distress & anxiety, may they thus guide themselves to bliss." The blessed Buddha often pointed out: Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one 16th part of the release of mind by infinitely universal friendliness: In shining, beaming, glow & radiance the release of mind by infinite, immeasurable and inexhaustible friendliness far excels them all! Itivuttaka 27 Have a nice ultra-friendly day! Friendship is the Greatest! http://What-Buddha-Said.net Infinite Loving-Kindness! #101215 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. pt: Anusayas. chewsadhu Dear Nina & pt, It is wonderful. Here also stated clearly that The functions of the conditioning states are called the forces. And a conditioning state can possess many conditioning forces. Force of root, force of predominance, etc. Now the point that we are discussing here is that: The 1st citta is arising, the moment it is arising, it is not ceasing. Next, when the 1st citta is ceasing, it is not arising. And the 2nd citta is not arising yet. The 2nd citta will arise. The relation to condition the 2nd citta to arise by the ceasing of the 1st citta is called the conditioning force. In each moment, there is only one citta exists in ultimate sense. Which mean that when the 2nd citta is arising, the 1st citta has already ceased. Here, the 1st citta is the conditioning state, and the 2nd citta is the conditioned state. The function of the 1st citta as the conditioning state to condition the 2nd citta as the conditioned stated is called the conditioning force. I think some may think that there are the real exist force to transfer from the 1st citta to the 2nd citta. Then their understanding become the ceased 1st citta has already ceased, but it's force still exists and conditions the 2nd citta to arise. So, "transfer of force" is said. As stated here . That's why, IMO, there are no transferring of forces from the 1st citta to the 2nd citta, etc. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew #101216 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. pt: Anusayas. ptaus1 Dear Nina and Chew, Thanks very much for your replies and comments about conditioning force and nirodha samapatti. I feel I understand this topic much better now. Best wishes pt #101217 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. hantun1 Dear Nina, I am interested in the six knowledge (cha asaadhaara.na ~naa.na) which are possessed only by the Buddha and not shared by disciples. 1. Indriyaparopariyatta ~naa.na, penetration of others' faculties 2 Aasayaanusaya ~naa.na, knowledge of beings' biases and underlying tendencies 3. Yamakapaa.tihiira ~naa.na, knowledge of the twin metamorphosis 4. Mahaakaru.naasamaapatti ~naa.na, knowledge of the great compassion 5. Sababa~n~nuta ~naa.na, omniscient knowledge 6. Anaavara.na ~naa.na, unobstructed knowledge (1) With regard to Aasayaanusaya ~naa.na, knowledge of beings' biases and underlying tendencies (in Burmese books, aasaya is translated as desires), I assume that an Arahant cannot know aasaya-anusaya of others, but he will know the absence of aasaya-anusaya in him. Am I right? (2) I will be most grateful if you would kindly give an example of how the mahaakaru.na of the Buddha is so unique that it cannot be possessed by the arahants and other disciples? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #101218 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. pt: Anusayas. sarahprocter... Dear Chew (& pt), Excellent posts on forces and also on the Yamaka, Chew, such as on Okaasa #101196. You make a great contribution to the list. Also pt, I really appreciated your responses to Staisha and new members and all the deep qus. [A little more on 'forces' under 'Conditions - relations, forces' in U.P. Also on anantara paccaya under 'Proximity condition', but I think all that's been answered for you.] Metta Sarah --- On Fri, 9/10/09, Sadhu Chew wrote: >The conditioning forces (paccayasatti) are the function of the conditioning states to condition the conditioned states. What we have for the conditioning states are only citta, cetasika, ruupa, nibbaana, and pa~n~natti. And the conditioned states are only citta, cetasika, and ruupa. The phenomena that exists in the ultimate sense are only citta, cetasika, ruupa, and nibbaana. What we call the conditioning forces are only the function of the conditioning states. <...> #101219 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Co, subco, anutiika, matika to Yamaka. sarahprocter... Dear Han, (Nina, Chew & all), --- On Fri, 9/10/09, han tun wrote: >Han: My understanding of okaasa is limited to okaasa-loka, which is translated by scholars as the "World of Locations", the existence of countless universes including stars, planets, their satellites etc. (or) the Universe of Space which accommodate naama and ruupa. In Yamaka, I took it to be kaama-dhaatu, ruupa-dhaatu and aruupa-dhaatu, which refers to the planes of existence. But you, Sarah, and Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi said that they are the planes of cittas. One Dictionary gives the meaning of okaasa as room; open space; chance; permission. So, I am not very sure what okaasa means in Yamaka. ... S: Well, it's all very complex. I don't have time to type out Nyantiloka's summary in full, but a couple of extracts seem to support your comments. Under the first section: "The 'Biases' (anusaya-vaara)", he has a note under (Place) referring to how the "7 biases obtain in the sense-. fine-material, and immaterial sphere, except in the Pure Abodes (suddhaavaasa)." Here clearly referring to planes of existence. Under the last section, "VII The Biases in the various 'Spheres of existence' (dhaatu-vaara)", he quotes from the text: " 'To one who, after passing away from the Sensuous sphere, is reborn in the Sensuous-sphere (or, fine-material-sphere - or, immaterial sphere - for, not in the Sensuous sphere - or, not in the fine-material sphere, etc.), how many biases do there arise, how many do not, how many are cut off?' " " 'One who, after passing away from the Sensuous-sphere, (or fine-material sphere, etc.,), is reborn in the Sensuous-sphere (etc.,), may have 7 biases (i.e. the worldling), or 5 biases (i.e. the Sotaapanna and Sakadaagaamin), or 3 biases (the Anaagaamin); but he may (at that moment) not be free from all of them.' " ... S: I don't know where okaasa is used, but clearly here planes of existence are being referred to. So perhaps everyone is correct and both planes of existence and planes of cittas are referred to in different sections of the texts. Now you, Nina and Chew have all the Pali, you can read it carefully and let us all know:-) I'm afraid my study and replies are very rushed now and will be for the next couple of weeks while we are in Bangkok and then when we return and I have my brother staying. So I look forward to all your (and others') careful considerations:-) Metta Sarah ======== #101220 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- On Thu, 8/10/09, han tun wrote: >as I am concerned, I will take the interpretation of (patta-nikkujja- kamma) by Burmese Sayadaws, as overturning their bowls by the monks, i.e., they will not accept the alms from that lay-person(s) . ... S: Either way, it may be a valid interpretation. I think it would need someone a lot more knowledgeable about the Vinaya than me to know. ... >You also mentioned about Ven Channa. That is also interesting. In this case, it is not called (patta-nikkujja- kamma), but imposing Brahma-penality (Brahma-da.n. da). ... S: This is all interesting. Thank you for sharing it and your very helpful explanations. Metta Sarah In DN 16 Mahaa-parinibbaana Sutta, "Aananda, after my passing, the monk Channa is to receive the Brahma-penality" . "But, Lord, what is the Brahma-penality? " "Aananda, whatever the monk Channa wants or says, he is not to be spoken to, admonished or instructed by the monks". "Channassa Aananda bhikkhuno mamaccayena brahmada.n.do daatabbo"ti. "Katamo pana bhante brahmada.n.do? "ti. "Channo Aananda bhikkhu ya.m iccheyya ta.m vadeyya, so bhikkhuuhi neva vattabbo na ovaditabbo na anusaasitabbo" ti. <....> #101221 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anattalakkhana Sutta - Mahasi Sayadaw sarahprocter... Dear Chew, Nina & all, --- On Thu, 8/10/09, Sadhu Chew wrote: >I read the below text from http://www.buddhane t.net/budsas/ ebud/mahasi- anat/anat08. htm "Sabbe dhammaa anattaati" Noticed that Mahasi Sayadaw said Dhamma in this verse has the same purpose as sa"nkhaaraa; of the previous two verses, meaning mundane mentality and corporeality as perceived by insight knowledge. All the time I thought the word "dhamma" there also includes supramundane Path, Fruition and the unconditioned Nibbaana as well. ... S: I think this is correct. We discussed it before. It is the ancient commentary to the Dhammapada itself which states: "Tattha sabbe dhammaati pa~ncakkhandhaa eva adhippetaa." (There (in that place) 'sabbe dhammaa' means the five aggregates.) See the past messages by Steve: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/55348 >I believe this is why the commentators limit `sabbe dhamma' in the context of the Dhammapada verse to just the five aggregates. Taking the whole verse into consideration it seems to be about vipassana leading to purity. The way to purity being seeing the mundane aggregates as anicca, anatta and dukkha. Dhammapada Commentary on the verse: Tattha sabbe dhammaati pa~ncakkhandhaa eva adhippetaa. There (in that place) 'sabbe dhammaa' means the five aggregates. Also: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/55454 >As mentioned in a previous post, within the context of the Dhammapada verse #279, the commentators state sabbe dhammaa is limited to the 5 aggregates, but in other parts of the canon the commentators include Nibbana, the asankata datu within `Sabbe Dhamma Anattaa". The Channa Sutta of the Khandhavagga of the Samyutta Nikaya has All formations are impermanent, all phenomena are anatta. Sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe dhamma anattaa'ti. The commentaries state in reference to this passage: Sabbe sankhara anicca'ti sabbe tebhumakasankhara aniccaa. Sabbe dhammaa anattaati sabbe catubhumakadhammaa anattaa. All formations of the three planes are impermanent; all phenomena of the four planes are nonself. -- Chapter XVIII – Planes, of the Patisambhidamagga explains the 4 Planes: There are these fours planes: the sensual-desire sphere, the material sphere, the immaterial sphere and the unincluded sphere. What is the unincluded plane? The unincluded paths and fruitions of the paths and the unformed principle (asankata datu): these are the unincluded plane.< **** Metta Sarah ======== -- #101222 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:32 am Subject: Re:[dsg] Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? sarahprocter... Dear Staisha, Welcome to DSG! Good questions. Would you also care to tell us a little about yourself, such as where you live and how you found your way here? --- On Mon, 5/10/09, Staisha Perry wrote: >Hello friends, well i think i would to know what "it" is and what "it" is not. How does one trully let go and know it as is and is not without violating truth and conventional realty <...> A:>"What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain" - MN 140 ""'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness. '"" ... S: "It" is citta or consciousness. What it is not is Staisha, Sarah or anyone else. In other words, we're used to thinking that we experience pain or pleasure, but actually, it's just an impermanent mental state or kind of consciousness which experiences pain or pleasure. There is no "one" to let go. It is wisdom or pa~n~naa which has to grow and understand the truth about realities, so that there is less ignorance and being lost in the world of concepts or conventional realities. So, first we have to hear about what these realities are, what the mental and physical phenomena of our lives really are. Metta Sarah p.s Pls make it clear who you're addressing and pls sign off with your name. Thanks in advance! ""'It feels, it feels': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'feeling.' And what does it feel? It feels pleasure. It feels pain. It feels neither pleasure nor pain. 'It feels, it feels': Thus it is said to be 'feeling.'"" - MN43 http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.140. than.html http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.043. than.html <...> #101223 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anattalakkhana Sutta - Mahasi Sayadaw chewsadhu Dear Sarah, It is very clear. Thanks and Sadhu to you. May you be well and happy. With respect, Chew #101224 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Staisha) - In a message dated 10/10/2009 7:32:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Staisha, Welcome to DSG! Good questions. Would you also care to tell us a little about yourself, such as where you live and how you found your way here? --- On Mon, 5/10/09, Staisha Perry wrote: >Hello friends, well i think i would to know what "it" is and what "it" is not. How does one trully let go and know it as is and is not without violating truth and conventional realty <...> A:>"What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain" - MN 140 ""'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness. '"" ... S: "It" is citta or consciousness. What it is not is Staisha, Sarah or anyone else. In other words, we're used to thinking that we experience pain or pleasure, but actually, it's just an impermanent mental state or kind of consciousness which experiences pain or pleasure. There is no "one" to let go. It is wisdom or pa~n~naa which has to grow and understand the truth about realities, so that there is less ignorance and being lost in the world of concepts or conventional realities. So, first we have to hear about what these realities are, what the mental and physical phenomena of our lives really are. Metta Sarah p.s Pls make it clear who you're addressing and pls sign off with your name. Thanks in advance! ""'It feels, it feels': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'feeling.' And what does it feel? It feels pleasure. It feels pain. It feels neither pleasure nor pain. 'It feels, it feels': Thus it is said to be 'feeling.'"" - MN43 http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.140. than.html http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.043. than.html <...> ================================== Sarah, it seems to me that Staisha is noticing something odd (or at least "A" is). Vedana is elementary affective feeling as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral (as indicated above in MN 43). On the other hand, consciousness, which is usually considered to be experience of any sense-door object, is given above by the following: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain" - MN 140 ""'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness. '"" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - That seems to lose the distinction between vi~n~nana and vedana!! Perhaps the explanation is that in this particular sutta, consciousness is examined only in its role of taking vedana as object. What I'm saying is that perhaps the circumstance being described is as follows: Consciousness of some object arises, perhaps the experiencing of a bodily sensation of warmth or sharp pressure or whatever, the contact that is the coming together of that consciousness with that object through the corresponding sense door enables the corresponding vedana, and then that vedana (of feeling the original object as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral) is, itself, taken as object of subsequent consciousness, and it is that latter experiencing of vedana as object that is being pointed to in this sutta. What do you think? With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101225 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Dear pt & all, --- On Mon, 5/10/09, ptaus1 wrote: >pt: ...I still can't properly understand what kind of arammana is the sankhara nimitta of the first mind-door process. ... S: It can be any conditioned reality, sankhara dhamma. .... >So far, I got this far - please correct me if I'm wrong: >1. Sankhara nimitta of color (in our example) is not one of the six dhamma arammana - that's what I think you are saying above - but it is rupa nimitta (nimitta of gross or derived rupa). ... S: Yes, I should have said, to be more precise, it's a visaya rupa, a rupa experienced through one of the senses, in this case eye-sense. [See Alberto's message #101143] Dhammaarammana comprises all the objects not included in ruupaarammana (visible object), saddaarammana (sound), gandhaarammana (smell), rasarammana (taste) or phottabbaarammana (tactile object). However, even when a citta or cetasika is experienced by the first mind-door process, it is a sankhara nimitta, a nimitta of that citta or cetasika. ... >2. In post #101063 you write: > S: As you say, the visible object has fallen away and strictly speaking, it is just the nimitta of that object. However, it is referred to in the texts as 'present object'. Awareness can be aware of the characterisitic of this 'present object' as the processes follow in such rapid succession. It is 'present object by way of Navattabba (Not so Classifiable) object'. It's the same when nibbana is reviewed by the paccavekana cittas immediately succeeding the lokuttara cittas. It's 'reality by way of navattabba'. pt: >So, if I understand correctly, this sankhara nimitta of color cannot be classified as one of the six dhamma arammana because it is classifed by way of navattabba (i.e. it is not so classifiable) ? ... S: No, this is not the reason. Dhammaarammana, as I mentioned, just refers to those objects only experienced through the mind-door. The color is no more a nimitta or navattaba object than say, lobha, or vedana, which have just fallen away. ... >3. I thought so far that a mind-door process can have as arammana only the six dhamma arammana mentioned (sensitive and subtle matter, citta, cetasika, concept and nibbana). However, as you write in post #101064: > S: "But the object of consciousness [occurring] at the mind-door is of all six [senses], and present, past, future and free of time, as appropriate. " > Commentary: " 'All six': all six, beginning with visible form, etc. Because Nibbaana and concepts do not perish, they cannot occur by way of past, etc., time, and so are called 'free of time'." > S: So here it's referring to objects experienced through the mind-door, beginning with visible object and including 'present'. Clearly these are not included in concepts as I read it. >pt: So, do I understand this correctly that a mind-door process can have one of the six dhamma arammans as object, BUT, it can also have one of the 5 gross or subtle rupas as well, of all three times, as well? And if it's the 'present' one, then it's navattabba? ... S: I would say that "a mind-door process can have any of the dhammaarammana as object, but it can also have any of the visaya rupas, any of the first 5 classes of arammana (experienced through the sense doors), as object as well. If the object of the mind-door process is a reality, a nama or rupa, which has just fallen away, it is a 'present' object, a sankhara nimitta of that reality or it can be said to be a reality 'by way of navattabba (not-classifiable)'. ... >Thanks, and apologies again for confusion. ... S: No more apologies necessary:-) Thank you sincerely for 'nailing me down' on this complex topic. I greatly appreciate your perseverance and keen interest. Your questions remind me of my own:-) Please let me know if anything still sounds confusing or if I've slipped up anywhere. Metta Sarah ========= #101226 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Does weight of kamma depend on others? sarahprocter... Dear pt, Thanks for the following links. Can I ask you again to kindly add them into the DSG links and any other helpful ones along the way. I meant to ask you to add one more you gave, but forget what it was now. TIA! Metta Sarah --- On Mon, 5/10/09, ptaus1 wrote: >For those interested: B.Bodhi's translation of the Brahmajala sutta and commentaries is available in full on google books: http://books. google.com. au/books? id=6ym-vC4nTsAC& printsec= frontcover& dq=the+discourse +on+the+all& as_brr=1# v=onepage& q=&f=false Treatise on the paramis on its own i available also on ATI in html form: http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ bodhi/wheel409. html #101227 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks sarahprocter... Hi Colette, Thanks for your interest. --- On Tue, 6/10/09, colette wrote: >What does it mean if the Buddha did not cognize our conditions TODAY? ... S: The Buddha could cognize the conditions for anything he put his mind to. He had omniscient wisdom: From the Sub-cy to the Brahmajaala Sutta (transl. by B.Bodhi, BPS,p.123): "Query: .....how is possible for a single, limited type of knowledge to penetrate without omission the entire range of the knowable with its inconceivable, immeasurable sub-divisions? "Reply: Who says the Buddha-knowledge is limited? Like the knowable itself the Buddha-knowledge is infinite. For it is said: 'As far as that knowledge extends, so far does the knowable extend; as far as the knowable extends, so far does that knowledge extend' (Pts.1.i.72). It may be objected that if the knowable, with its numerous sub-divisions by way of class, plane, specific nature, etc., and by way of direction, place, time, etc., is apprehended in succession, it is impossible to penetrate it in its totality, without remainder. "But that is not so. Why? Because whatever it is that the Exalted One wishes to know, whether in its entirety or in part, that he knows by direct experience through the unimpeded coursing (of his knowledge) in that object." Metta Sarah ======= #101228 From: han tun Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Co, subco, anutiika, matika to Yamaka. hantun1 Dear Sarah (Nina, Chew), As Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi pointed out, there is a definite relation between the planes of existence and the planes of cittas, and I will not expand further on this issue and will let it rest in peace:>) Meanwhile, as I am very new to Yamaka, I will follow the posts on Latent Tendencies by Nina so that I can understand it better. Respectfully, Han #101229 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- On Tue, 6/10/09, kenhowardau wrote: >S: Like with 'teacher' or 'Sangha', it is honouring those who have given us a great gift. Like with the respect to the Buddha, it's actually to the qualities that we pay respect, not a person. The respect to the Sangha is to qualities of the ariyan wisdom, not beings. The respect to the parents is to the qualities of nurturing and providing sustenance that brought us into this world and took care of us when young, for however short a period. ------------ --------- -- >K:You seem to be talking here about paying respect to kusala qualities, and I am sure that is what is meant in the texts. But it is also a matter of right understanding (of all namas and rupas), isn't it? After all, we are talking about the Dhamma. :-) ... S: Yes, all kinds of dhammas, all kinds of kusala, are included in the Dhamma :-). .... >Ultimately, all conditioned dhammas condition (nurture, provide for, give a great gift to) other dhammas. As we were both saying in an earlier conversation, a person with this kind of right understanding will know how to behave properly in any situation. Therefore, with R U, even an abused child will know how to behave respectfully to his parents. Even an abused wife will know how to treat her parent- in-law like gods. (Or however the customs of the day require her to treat them.) >And it can still be the kind of respect that recognises (as you were saying) kusala qualities, because every momentary arising of the five khandhas contains at least *latent* kusala. ... S: Yes, sounds fine :-) .... > S: I think the cultural traditions/circumst ances will affect what is considered to be misconduct. It's the same with stealing or lying too. However, the principles are the same, don't you think? As usual, it's not the story or situation, but the cittas involved. ------------ ----- K:> Yes, although that reminds me of one of my theories that you disallowed.:-) (That morality could not be taught without a knowledge of paramattha dhammas.) ... S: Yes, but not 'higher morality' or adhi-siila. Children can be taught how to be polite, not to steal or tell lies, but without any undersanding of realities, it will all be taken for Self and the tendencies (the anusaya) which can lead to gross defilements will never be eradicated. ... >I'd like to get back to that some time, BTW. I still don't know the exact requirements for that kind of bhavana (mental development) . ... S: For any kind of bhavana, there has to be right understanding of one kind or other. ... >PS: Are you sure the text from the previous message, that I have left in, is displaying properly? On my computer there are often broken lines all over the place. I never know in advance how they will turn out. ... S: Let's put it this way - no more broken lines than those be displayed in my old message:-). I'm always in too much of a hurry to fret about it, I suppose. Metta Sarah ======= #101230 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Ken) - In a message dated 10/10/2009 9:02:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Ken H, --- On Tue, 6/10/09, kenhowardau wrote: >S: Like with 'teacher' or 'Sangha', it is honouring those who have given us a great gift. Like with the respect to the Buddha, it's actually to the qualities that we pay respect, not a person. The respect to the Sangha is to qualities of the ariyan wisdom, not beings. The respect to the parents is to the qualities of nurturing and providing sustenance that brought us into this world and took care of us when young, for however short a period. ------------ --------- -- >K:You seem to be talking here about paying respect to kusala qualities, and I am sure that is what is meant in the texts. But it is also a matter of right understanding (of all namas and rupas), isn't it? After all, we are talking about the Dhamma. :-) ... S: Yes, all kinds of dhammas, all kinds of kusala, are included in the Dhamma :-). ------------------------------------------------------- And, Sarah, do those qualities appreciate our expressions of respect, and do they thank us? ;-)) When we make a statement of respect, whom are we addressing? Yes, it is the qualities we respect, and most especially the qualities of effort and intentional recollection and application of moral principles that lead to other wholesome qualities. But we are not addressing qualities when we *express* our respect. We are addressing people. That is, we have the expectation that our statements will be heard, understood, contemplated, and have a multitude of cognitive and affective repercussions over an extended period of time within ever-changing, integrated complexes of mental and physical phenomena called "people." ----------------------------------------------------- .... >Ultimately, all conditioned dhammas condition (nurture, provide for, give a great gift to) other dhammas. As we were both saying in an earlier conversation, a person with this kind of right understanding will know how to behave properly in any situation. Therefore, with R U, even an abused child will know how to behave respectfully to his parents. Even an abused wife will know how to treat her parent- in-law like gods. (Or however the customs of the day require her to treat them.) >And it can still be the kind of respect that recognises (as you were saying) kusala qualities, because every momentary arising of the five khandhas contains at least *latent* kusala. ... S: Yes, sounds fine :-) .... > S: I think the cultural traditions/circumst ances will affect what is considered to be misconduct. It's the same with stealing or lying too. However, the principles are the same, don't you think? As usual, it's not the story or situation, but the cittas involved. ------------ ----- K:> Yes, although that reminds me of one of my theories that you disallowed.:-) (That morality could not be taught without a knowledge of paramattha dhammas.) ... S: Yes, but not 'higher morality' or adhi-siila. Children can be taught how to be polite, not to steal or tell lies, but without any undersanding of realities, it will all be taken for Self and the tendencies (the anusaya) which can lead to gross defilements will never be eradicated. ... >I'd like to get back to that some time, BTW. I still don't know the exact requirements for that kind of bhavana (mental development) . ... S: For any kind of bhavana, there has to be right understanding of one kind or other. ... >PS: Are you sure the text from the previous message, that I have left in, is displaying properly? On my computer there are often broken lines all over the place. I never know in advance how they will turn out. ... S: Let's put it this way - no more broken lines than those be displayed in my old message:-). I'm always in too much of a hurry to fret about it, I suppose. Metta Sarah ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101231 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 1. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 48: Walshe DN 33.1.11(48) 'Four more persons: Here a man's life benefits (a) himself but not others, (b) others but not himself, *1086 (c) neither, (d) both. ---- (< Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. nilovg Dear Han, Op 10-okt-2009, om 9:08 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > (1) With regard to Aasayaanusaya ~naa.na, knowledge of beings' > biases and underlying tendencies (in Burmese books, aasaya is > translated as desires), I assume that an Arahant cannot know aasaya- > anusaya of others, but he will know the absence of aasaya-anusaya > in him. Am I right? > > (2) I will be most grateful if you would kindly give an example of > how the mahaakaru.na of the Buddha is so unique that it cannot be > possessed by the arahants and other disciples? ------- N: As to no 1: in the next posting (tomorrow) these terms are further explained. Aasaya in short, are the good and bad inclinations, biases, and for this is also used the word chanda, desire, as in your Burmese books. Chanda can be kusala or akusala. What is the word in Burmese? Aasaya are the good and bad inclinations that have been accumulated. Anusayas are akusala, they are, as you know the defilements that are latent tendencies. If anything is not clear, it is very good to discuss it. The arahat has no more anusaya and he realizes this. But he has the inclination to wisdom, to all sobhana qualities. ------ 2: We can develop karu.na to a certain extent, but it could never equal the karu.na of the Buddha. With his omniscience he penetrated the dukkha of sa.msara, and this conditioned his karu.na. Also as a bodhisatta he was prepared to suffer anything just for the sake of helping other beings to freedom from sa.msara. There is a Ch in the Pa.tisambhidaamagga, in Treatise on Knowledge, ch 71: The great Compassion: We may repeat these words, but the Buddha saw the truth with unequalled wisdom. ------- Nina. #101233 From: "colette" Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:46 pm Subject: Enter ,Miss Interpretation? ksheri3 Hi Sarah, I made no conclusion about the Buddha's speach, practices, or thoughts/thinking, I specified, made specific, that you are speaking from a text that others wrote, the Buddha did not write this text which you refer to THEREFORE THE LIMITATIONS, THE BOUNDERIES, THE PARAMETERS, THE BIAS, THE PREDJUDICE, THE DISCRIMINATION, etc, is present simply because we can see that a group of monks were locked out of the process of deciding what is and what is not worthy of being placed in the PITAKA. <.....> It certainly is a universal process, no? It doesn't apply to everybody? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > Thanks for your interest. > > --- On Tue, 6/10/09, colette wrote: > >What does it mean if the Buddha did not cognize our conditions TODAY? > ... > S: The Buddha could cognize the conditions for anything he put his mind to. He had omniscient wisdom: <...> #101234 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Boycott by the monks sarahprocter... Hi Dieter, (Han & all), Sorry, I meant to get back to this before now.... I'm glad to see your interest and to hear from you again! Hope you're doing well. --- On Tue, 6/10/09, Dieter Moeller wrote: >interesting to read in detail.. 'It means that there is to be no communion between him/her and the Sangha Community, if he/she commits one of the eight conditions' and so presents the Buddhist way to ' excommunicate ' lay followers , doesn't it? ... S: I'm also not sure that 'excommunicate' would be the right word. In Christianity, it has a particular connotation, doesn't it, because people have joined, become members or been 'confirmed' into the Church. In Buddhism, there's no formal membership. So here it is more of a 'disassociation', as I understand it, but the effect seems similar. In Christianity, the person cannot take communion, here the person cannot offer food, but can still enter the Temple or listen to the Teachings, as I understand. Really, I know little about any of this. I'd be interested to hear any of your comments, Dieter. As I recall you either ordained or had close association with the bhikkhus in Thailand before. Were there any examples? Metta Sarah ======== #101235 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Oct 10, 2009 10:37 pm Subject: The 3 Evils! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: By Greed, Hate and Ignorance beings Suffer! By its means they are greedy, this itself is greed. Greed and all its dilutions such as desire, lust, urge, yearning, craving, wanting, longing, & hoping all has the characteristic of grasping an object, like an adhesive glue attaching to it... The function is sticking, binding, and clinging to it, like meat put in a hot pan. It is manifested as not giving up, not releasing, & inability to drop the object. Greed's proximate cause is seeing enjoyment in things, that lead to bondage! Swelling with the current of craving, it should be regarded as taking beings with it to the states of loss, as a swift-flowing river whirls to a great ocean... Hate itself hates, by its characteristic ferocious, vicious and furious rage, like a provoked snake. Its function is to spread, like a drop of poison, and to grow up its own source, like a forest fire. Hate is manifested as a cruel persecution, like an enemy who has got his chance. The proximate cause of hate, anger, irritation, aversion, and opposition is any source of annoyance. It should be regarded as like stale urine mixed with poison... Ignorance has the characteristic of blindness, delusion or simply unknowing. Its function and consequence is non-penetration, by concealment of the real individual essence of an object. It is manifested as the absence of right view, and a deep mental darkness. The proximate cause of ignorance is unreasoning and wrongly directed attention neglecting all analysis of cause and effect... It should be regarded as the deepest root of all, that is disadvantageous! Vism I 468 <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #101236 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. hantun1 Dear Nina, Your explanations are very clear and very useful. Now, I know the subject better. Thank you very much. I look forward to your posts on Latent Tendencies. I will follow them closely. N: As to no 1: in the next posting (tomorrow) these terms are further explained. Aasaya in short, are the good and bad inclinations, biases, and for this is also used the word chanda, desire, as in your Burmese books. Chanda can be kusala or akusala. What is the word in Burmese? Aasaya are the good and bad inclinations that have been accumulated. Anusayas are akusala, they are, as you know the defilements that are latent tendencies. If anything is not clear, it is very good to discuss it. The arahat has no more anusaya and he realizes this. But he has the inclination to wisdom, to all sobhana qualities. Han: There are some difficulties with the Burmese books. In many instances, we use the Pali words as they were without translation into Burmese. And we also use Burmese compound words which are the combination of Burmese and Pali words with the same meaning. For example, "aasaya" is translated as "lo-an-chanda". "lo-an" is the Burmese word which has the same meaning as "chanda". As you said chanda can be kusala or akusala, so also is "lo-an-chanda". I fully understand your explanations. Everything is clear. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #101237 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (17) ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply (101177). > S: A quick interruption - in what way is this a "samatha bhavana sitting" or samatha bhavana anything, when there are "a lot of akusala moments"? pt: In the same way that a dry insight "informal" daily practice is ;) I mean, the initial half an hour or so of a formal samatha sitting tends to have mostly akusala moments with a few flashes of kusala (except in the case of those who have mastery of jhana and can enter it immediately) - and this is very much the same as informal practice - most of daily experiences are bound to be akusala with only a few flashes of kusala calm and panna. So, I don't really see a difference between formal and informal approaches so far. > S: Again, I think that samatha bhavana comes down to moments of right understanding and calm, such as if we happen to be wisely reflecting on the Buddha's virtues now. I don't think it has anything to do with deciding to have a "samatha bhavana sitting/practice" now or later. pt: This one's a little tricky to agree with because you offer a very specific definition of "samatha bhavana" as a moment of calm when right understanding arises. I have no problem with such use of the term, but then we have to come up with a new general term for the states which start to occur after the initial period of a formal samatha sitting, that is, when akusala moments start to decrease and more kusala moments start to arise. We can still call these individual kusala moments "samatha bhavana" according to your definition, but then, how would we call the overall increase in kusala thanks to overall suppression of hindrances? Usually, that's what people call "samatha bhavana". Granted, at this stage, there are still moments of akusala, but not nearly as many as in daily experiences, nor as during the initial period of a formal samatha sitting. Anyway, I'll call this stage "samatha development" for now, but please let me know if there's a better term for it (I was thinking of calling it "jhana development", but then, the stages I'm describing here precede jhana proper). > S: And is there any clinging or attachment to having such [kusala] moments increase? pt: Yes, I think this is an equally valid question regarding samatha development as much as it is for an informal practice, no difference. > S: What about now - kusala, akusala - any dhamma can be known, but only with understanding and detachment, regardless of the object. pt: Agreed, but I'd say that there's a difference in the levels of knowing dhammas depending on whether the above refers to insight or to samatha development (more below). > S: Yes, lots of people have a vague idea of "this is not me" and talk about everything being anatta and anicca, but I don't see this as any understanding namas and rupas as anatta. If there is no understanding of particular dhammas, such as seeing as a nama, visible object as a rupa, there cannot be any real understanding of anatta. And unless such dhammas are clearly understood as anatta, the impermanence of the same dhammas can never be understood as anicca. It's bound to remain as a vague, conceptual understanding - not the understanding of realities. pt: I agree with the details of what you're saying above, but the overall tone of it seems a bit antagonistic towards people who are into samatha development. I mean, the goal of samatha development is not insight, and therefore, we can't really expect insight and liberation to come from samatha development alone. So, comparing samatha development and insight on the merits of insight alone isn't entirely politically correct so to speak ;) IMO, in terms of insight, samatha development alone can't really give much more than a vague idea of the three marks as you say, and certain kusala/akusala aspects of some dhammas. This is because these basic insights are simply required for progress of samatha to happen. Any further deeper understanding of dhammas (insight proper) would largely depend on accumulations and study. I mean, I guess it's because of accumulations that some people can progress in insight through study alone. For others, these same insights could happen with a little study and a relative seclusion from hindrances provided by samatha development (when approaching or exiting jhana). Still for others (that are in majority I think), a lot of both is required in different combinations, etc. Different accumulations - different practices. Don't see why there should be any antagonism between people who are predisposed to dry insight, and people who are predisposed to samatha development, and people who are predisposed to both. Just my speculations anyway. Best wishes pt #101238 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Does weight of kamma depend on others? ptaus1 Dear Sarah, > S: Can I ask you again to kindly add them into the DSG links and any other helpful ones along the way. I meant to ask you to add one more you gave, but forget what it was now. pt: It was probably A history of Pali literature by Bimala Churn Law that you recently mentioned, so I added the links to that as well. Best wishes pt #101239 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:00 am Subject: Fw: DSG Welcome info sarahprocter... F/W note from Staisha thank you for the welcome. I live in arizona, for àlmost 7yrs i have been buddhist & trying change just from belief, to freedom À friend told me that he stumbled across vipassana letters online, we study theravada & mayhayana. We are in the same situation.. I study sutta & vipassana have been searching for others who have more understanding by investing other than books, meditation only or hearsay. Thank you kindly, peace in the way. Im using cëll, am limited to content -staisha #101240 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:09 am Subject: Re: unpleasant vipaka szmicio Dear All, How to get more samvega? best wishes Lukas #101241 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:53 am Subject: Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. szmicio Dear Nina, >N: We read in the "Path of Discrimination": > > "There are seventythree kinds of knowledge and among these the first > sixtyseven are shared by disciples. The last six are are not shared > by disciples but are exclusively knowledges of the Buddha. These are: > penetration of others' faculties, knowledge of beings' biases and > underlying tendencies, knowledge of the twin metamorphosis, knowledge > of the great compassion, omniscient knowledge and unobstructed > knowledge [2] ." L: Those six ~nanas, that are no shared by disciples but by Buddhas themself, are possible to achive by disciple? Is it posible to experience, even for a while, the one on Buddha's knowladges? We know about different Buddha's disciples. Sariputta has a great faculty of wisdom, and some other Anurudha or Maha Mogallana a great facuty of supernatural power. Do they experience the knowladge of twin metamorphosis? There is a Sutta in Majhimma Nikaya, about seven Disciples were asked what is the greatest bliss. And each one said the different thing. It shows how differenciated Dhamma is, How it works in different was. How our tendencies conditions what we take for Dhamma("practice"). 7 Arahats were asked and they answer in 7 different ways. Buddha just confirme they are both right. Sariputta(or another arahat) stated that the greatest bliss, the greatest Dhamma is to study or consider with friends Abhidhamma. Others said different things. Also in Visudhimagga, at the beginning is the section, where is stated that Dhamma manifest in different ways. Sometimes as dhammas of vipassana, sometimes as dhammas of siila, sometimes as samatha. Those are different moments. Just a couple of thought. Best wishes Lukas p.s when anger arises, strong anger, what to do? It looks like the only way is to stay still, and watcha anger. BUt it's increasing and sometimes it's hard to deal with it. There is action with anger. and that's much stronger akusala kamma-pattha, then just mental akusala kamma. What to do with anger? #101242 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:45 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 1, no 11. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha taught about everything which is real and which can be experienced in daily life. He taught about seeing and hearing, about all that can be experienced through the senses. He taught that on account of what is experienced through the senses there is attachment, aversion and ignorance. We are ignorant most of the time of the phenomena occurring in daily life. However, even when we only begin to develop understanding we can verify the truth of what the Buddha taught. Seeing, hearing, attachment, anger, generosity and kindness are real for everybody. There is no need to label what is true for everybody as “Buddhism”. When we begin to investigate what the Buddha taught there will gradually be the elimination of ignorance about ourselves and the world around us. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Kindred Sayings on Sense, The Third Fifty, Chapter I, §111, Understanding): By not comprehending, by not understanding, without detaching himself from, without abandoning the eye, one is incapable of the destruction of suffering. By not comprehending…the ear…nose…tongue…body…mind…one is incapable of the destruction of suffering. But by comprehending, by understanding, by detaching himself from, by abandoning the eye…nose…tongue…body…mind…one is capable of the destruction of suffering. In the following sutta we read that, for the destruction of suffering colours, sounds, scents, savours, tangible objects and mind-states have to be understood. This is the way leading to the end of suffering. The Buddha taught about realities for the sake of our welfare and happiness. _________ Nina. #101243 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:57 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. nilovg Dear friends, With regard to the expression “biases and underlying tendencies”, åsayånusaya, some teachers who pay attention only to the letter and do not investigate the meaning, wrongly assume that this expression is only a name. However, other teachers investigate the meaning of the terms that are used. They define the meaning of the term satta, being, as someone who is endowed with all kinds of properties. As to the term åsaya [4], bias, they explain this as dependence, abode or support on which beings depend. This term denotes the disposition to wrong view or to right view that has been accumulated. It denotes the disposition to all that is unwholesome, such as clinging to sense objects, or the disposition to all that is good, such as renunciation that has been accumulated. The defilements that lie persisting in beings’ continuous stream of cittas are called anusaya, latent tendencies. This term denotes the defilements such as clinging to sense objects that is strong. The terms åsaya and anusaya are joined together as åsayånusaya: biases and latent tendencies. It has become one word, which is actually a twin compound, formed by two words. The words disposition (adhimutti) and conduct (carita)[5] are in the text of the “Path of Discrimination”combined with the expression åsayånusaya: biases and latent tendencies. In the text, after he (Såriputta) has used the expression “knowledge of people’s biases and latent tendencies”, åsayånusaya ñåùa, he speaks of the knowledge of people’s behaviour (carita) and resolutions or dispositions (adhimutti). We read (Path of Discrimination, Ch 69, 585): “Here the Perfect One knows beings’ biasses, he knows their underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåùa), he knows their behaviour (carita), he knows their dispositions(adhimutti), he knows beings as capable and incapable. 586. What is the bias which is latent in beings? Beings are supported by the wrong view of existence or supported by the wrong view of non-existence [6] thus: ‘The world is eternal’ or ‘The world is not eternal’ or ‘The world is finite’ or ‘The world is infinite’ or ‘The soul and the body are the same’ or ‘The soul is one, the body another’ or ‘A Perfect One is not after death’ or “A Perfect One both is and is not after death’ or ‘A Perfect One neither is nor is not after death.’ Or else, avoiding these extremes, they have ‘acceptance in conformity’ 7 with respect to dhammas that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality. He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: ‘This person gives importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to sensual desires. He also knows them as pursuing renunciation thus: This person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is inclined to renunciation. He also knows them as pursuing ill-will thus: ‘This person gives importance to ill-will, is biassed to ill-will, is inclined to ill- will. He also knows them as pursuing non-ill-will thus: ‘This person gives importance to non-ill-will, is biassed to non-ill-will, is inclined to non-ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing stiffness- and-torpor thus: ‘This person gives importance to stiffness-and- torpor, is biassed to stiffness-and-torpor, is inclined to stiffness- and-torpor. He also knows them as pursuing perception of light thus: ‘This person gives importance to perception of light, is biassed to perception of light, is inclined to perception of light 8. These are the biasses (chanda) that become underlying tendencies in beings. ----------- Footnotes: 4. Asaya means: abode, support, disposition or inclination. 5. Adhimutti means resolution, intention, disposition or inclination. The Commentary to the “Path of Discrimination” explains that conduct, carita, refers to kusala kamma and akusala kamma of past lives and that disposition, adhimutti, refers to the present life. The text of the Path of Discrimination uses the word chanda, desire, wish-to-do, referring to inclination or bias. It may be akusala or kusala. 6. Beings who believe in eternalism or in annihilation. 7. Anulomika khanti is patience or acceptance accompanying conformity- knowledge or adaptation-knowledge. Insight is developed in several stages and conformity-knowledge arises during the process during which enlightenment is attained. This insight conforms to the preceding stages that have been developed and to the succeeding insight. It is succeeded by adoption knowledge (gotrabhú) which experiences nibbåna but is not lokuttara citta. Adoption knowledge is succeeded by the Path-consciousness which is lokuttara. When conformity-knowledge arises, one understands the conditionality of phenomena with right view. The Commentary states that the word khanti, patience or acceptance is used to designate this kind of insight, because it is accompanied by patience and forbearance. See also the “Dispeller of Delusion”, II, Ch 16, 459. 8. When someone has sloth and torpor, he is drowsy. In order to dispel it, he can apply himself to the meditation on the “perception of light”, loka saññå. ---------- Nina. #101244 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on Abhidhamma vs Suttanta sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, --- On Sun, 4/10/09, sprlrt wrote: >There is a typo as well: instead than for akusala -> kusala ones.) >I can rephrase is as: the hypothetical present (paccuppanna) kusala ñàna-sampayutta citta arising because of conditions (paccayas) which here would include previously arisen akusala dhammas (past akusala vicikiccha-sampayut ta cittas) as pakatùpanissaya paccaya as well as previously arisen kusala dhammas (past kusala ñàna-sampayutta cittas) as hetu paccaya. ... S: I'm not sure that we can refer to past cittas as hetu paccaya....:-/ ... >pakatùpanissaya paccaya: the paccaya is akusala, while the paccuppanna is kusala. hetu paccaya: here both paccaya and paccuppanna must be kusala (alobha, adosa and, for ñàna-sampayutta cittas, amoha). This present series of cittas, javana, would have a past paramattha dhamma as its present object (i.e. a nimitta). This present object, a past (i.e. no longer in existence) sankhara dhamma (i.e. anicca), would be in its turn, along with the presently arisen kusala citta & cetasikas paramattha dhammas, be conditions for the arising of kusala cittas in future: pakatùpanissaya paccaya: the paccaya would be kusala, the paccuppanna would be kusala too. ... S: I thought you were referring to the paccaya as the present object. We cannot refer to the object as kusala, surely? The paccuppanna, yes. I'm probably getting confused again. ... >hetu paccaya: here both paccaya and paccuppanna must be kusala. as well as for the arising of akusala cittas in future, as long as these roots (moha,lobha, dosa) aren't eradicated by lokuttara-magga cittas: pakatùpanissaya paccaya: the paccaya would be kusala, while the paccuppanna would be akusala. hetu paccaya: here both paccaya and paccuppanna must be akusala. ... Metta Sarah p.s I'm close to signing off until settled in Bangkok. We have a busy schedule starting tomorrow:-) ... #101245 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 3 Sikkhaa (trainings), Suan (1). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Sat, 26/9/09, upasaka@... wrote: >S:And again, no mention of siila to be developed first in the following description of the path and the three trainings (sikkhaa). ============ ========= ======== H:> With regard to sila being an initial training, please see the following: _http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an11/an11. 001.than. html_ ... S: "In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship." Without being accompanied by the development of pa~n~naa, insight, skillful virtues alone will never lead "step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship". It has to be adhi-siila, ahdi-citta and adhi-pa~n~naa - siila developed with satipa.t.thaana. Otherwise, those with good siila who had never heard the Buddha's teachings could become arahats, but this is impossible. ... >Also, Bhikkhu Bodhi writes the following in the article findable at the ATI link _http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ bodhi/wheel259. html_ : "The vigour of the spiritual life, like the vigour of a tree, depends upon healthy roots. Just as a tree with weak and shallow roots cannot flourish but will grow up stunted, withered and barren, so a spiritual life devoid of strong roots will also have a stunted growth incapable of bearing fruit. To attempt to scale the higher stages of the path it is essential at the outset to nourish the proper roots of the path; otherwise the result will be frustration, disillusionment, and perhaps even danger. The roots of the path are the constituents of sila, the factors of moral virtue. These are the basis for meditation, the ground for all wisdom and higher achievement. ... S: Again, it has to be the sila accompanied by pa~n~naa and the other 8-fold path factors, otherwise there will be no detachment developed from the idea of Self who has or doesn't have such sila. Metta Sarah ======= #101246 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Ken H & all), Thanks for joining in the discussion! --- On Sat, 10/10/09, upasaka@... wrote: >K:You seem to be talking here about paying respect to kusala qualities, and I am sure that is what is meant in the texts. But it is also a matter of right understanding (of all namas and rupas), isn't it? After all, we are talking about the Dhamma. :-) ... >S: Yes, all kinds of dhammas, all kinds of kusala, are included in the Dhamma :-). ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ------- H:> And, Sarah, do those qualities appreciate our expressions of respect, and do they thank us? ;-)) ... S: Those qualities that appreciate our expressions of respect are qualities such as mudita, sympathetic joy or anumodana, as often used in Buddhist countries - rejoicing in others' good deeds or words ;-)). ... >When we make a statement of respect, whom are we addressing? ... S: It's just like when we show metta or perform dana - the object is another being, but in an ultimate sense we know there's no being present. What is important are the kusala qualities being developed, regardless of whether the Buddha or anyone else will ever appreciate it ;-)) ... >Yes, it is the qualities we respect, and most especially the qualities of effort and intentional recollection and application of moral principles that lead to other wholesome qualities. But we are not addressing qualities when we *express* our respect. We are addressing people. ... S: Let's take the example of paying respect to the Buddha. Clearly, we're not addressing the Buddha because he's no longer alive:-)). We are showing our respect and appreciation for his qualities and for his showing the Path to us in his great compassion. It's also like when we pay our respects at a funeral. We can also appreciate and respect kusala qualities when we associate with our family and friends. ... >That is, we have the expectation that our statements will be heard, understood, contemplated, and have a multitude of cognitive and affective repercussions over an extended period of time within ever-changing, integrated complexes of mental and physical phenomena called "people." ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- S: The expectations are something else:-)). We can voice out our appreciation or not. When we voice it out, it can be a kusala way of sharing and extending such respect. I'm rushing through these last replies before switcing off my computer. I do hope Ken and others will continue these discussions. If not, I'll be glad to do so, but probably after I return to Hong Kong only. Metta Sarah ========== #101247 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Consciousness Vs Vedana What is the difference? sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Staisha), Last reply for now... --- On Sat, 10/10/09, upasaka@... wrote: >==== Sarah, it seems to me that Staisha is noticing something odd (or at least "A" is). Vedana is elementary affective feeling as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral (as indicated above in MN 43). On the other hand, consciousness, which is usually considered to be experience of any sense-door object, is given above by the following: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain" - MN 140 ""'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness. '"" - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >That seems to lose the distinction between vi~n~nana and vedana!! Perhaps the explanation is that in this particular sutta, consciousness is examined only in its role of taking vedana as object. ... S: See my reply to Alex: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101175 It is referring, as you suggest, to the experiencing of vedana as object. It is particularly referring to consciousness accompanied by sati and panna which understands the particular vedana being experienced for what it is. ... >What I'm saying is that perhaps the circumstance being described is as follows: Consciousness of some object arises, perhaps the experiencing of a bodily sensation of warmth or sharp pressure or whatever, the contact that is the coming together of that consciousness with that object through the corresponding sense door enables the corresponding vedana, and then that vedana (of feeling the original object as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral) is, itself, taken as object of subsequent consciousness, and it is that latter experiencing of vedana as object that is being pointed to in this sutta. What do you think? ... S: Yes, that's fine. It could be any feeling arising at anytime, in a sense or mind-door process which is then directly experienced by the subsequent cittas and known for what it is by sati and panna. For example, now as we contemplate on what we read, there are many, many cittas, all accompanied by vedana. We attach a lot of importance to the vedana in our life - to the pleasant and unpleasant feelings in particular, but vedana can be known right now as just a conditioned dhamma. Gradually there can be more detachment towards vedana, less minding so much about pleasant and unpleasant experiences. As understanding grows, so does sila, as the understanding and detachment leads to less and less inclination to gross akusala on account of such temporary pleasant and unpleasant feelings. This is how it seems to me, anyway:-)) It all comes down to anatta.... Lots more to discuss, but will look forward to more later... Metta Sarah p.s Staisha, many thanks for your intro! ========== #101248 From: "philofillet" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:46 am Subject: Vineyya MEANS Vinayitvaa (by removing) Re: Some Questions philofillet Hello Suan. I saw the following: >I may skip writing here for a while until Phil posts some questions to me. Forgive me for not posting questions for the time being. I'm continuing to benefit from time away. I might be back in January if I find I can participate here without committing wrong speech... Metta, Phil #101249 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: ‘This person gives importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to sensual desires. He also knows them as pursuing renunciation thus: This person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is inclined to renunciation. He also knows them as pursuing ill-will thus: ‘This person gives importance to ill-will, is biassed to ill-will, is inclined to ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing non-ill-will thus: ‘This person gives importance to non-ill-will, is biassed to non-ill-will, is inclined to non-ill-will. He also knows them as pursuing stiffness-and-torpor thus: ‘This person gives importance to stiffness-and-torpor, is biassed to stiffness-and-torpor, is inclined to stiffness-and-torpor. He also knows them as pursuing perception of light thus: ‘This person gives importance to perception of light, is biassed to perception of light, is inclined to perception of light 8. These are the biasses (chanda) that become underlying tendencies in beings. ----------- Han: I tried to match the above English translation with the Pali text as follows: ==================== He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: ‘This person gives importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to sensual desires. kaama.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo kaamagaruko kaamaasayo kaamaadhimutto'ti, kaama.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo nekkhammagaruko nekkhammaasayo nekkhammaadhimutto'ti, ---------- He also knows them as pursuing renunciation thus: This person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is inclined to renunciation. nekkhamma.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo nekkhammagaruko nekkhammaasayo nekkhammaadimutto'ti, nekkhamma.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo kaamagaruko kaamaasayo kaamaadhimutto'ti. ---------- He also knows them as pursuing ill-will thus: ‘This person gives importance to ill-will, is biassed to ill-will, is inclined to ill- will. byaapaada.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo byaapaadagaruko byaapaadaasayo byaapaadaadhimutto'ti, byaabaada.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo abyaapaadagaruko abyaapaadaasayo abyaapaadaadhimutto'ti, ---------- He also knows them as pursuing non-ill-will thus: ‘This person gives importance to non-ill-will, is biassed to non-ill-will, is inclined to non-ill-will. abyaapaada.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo abyaapaadagaruko abyaapaadaasayo abyaapaadaadhimutto'ti, abyaapaada.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggagalo byaapaadagaruko byaapaadaasayo byaapaadaadhimutto'ti. ---------- He also knows them as pursuing stiffness-and-torpor thus: ‘This person gives importance to stiffness-and-torpor, is biassed to stiffness-and-torpor, is inclined to stiffness-and-torpor. thiinamiddha.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo thiinamiddhagaruko thiinamiddhaasayo thiinamiddhaadhimutto'ti, thiinamiddha.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo aalokasa~n~naagaruko aalokasa~n~naasayo aalokasa~n~naadhimutto'ti, ---------- He also knows them as pursuing perception of light thus: ‘This person gives importance to perception of light, is biassed to perception of light, is inclined to perception of light. Aalokasa~n~na.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo aalokasa~n~naagaruko aalokasa~n~naasayo aalokasa~n~naadhimutto'ti, Aalokasa~n~na.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo thiinamiddhagaruko thiinamiddhaasayo thiinamiddhaadhimutto'ti. ---------- These are the biasses (chanda) that become underlying tendencies in beings. Aya.m sattaana.m aasayo. ==================== Han: I found that the English translation does not match exactly with the Pali text. It seems that one sentence is missing in English translation for each of [pursuing sensual-desires, pursuing renunciation, pursuing ill-will, pursuing non-ill-will, pursuing stiffness-and-torpor, and pursuing perception of light]. Respectfully, Han #101250 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:39 pm Subject: Re: Seclusion jonoabb Hi Alex (101131) > Let us be clear, there are places more and less sutiable to develop Satipatthana. This is even stated in the sutta. > =============== I'm not sure which passage of which sutta you're referring to here. Would you mind giving a specific quote and reference? Thanks. =============== > > But the seclusion does nothing to eradicate the underlying tendency >that makes a particular sense-door object a "distraction". > > Correct. But the seclusion is more suitable place to develop panna and wholesome states that will eradicte the tendencies. I am not sure that most people can eradicate unwholesome qualities in a Strip Club, Adult Store, or busy and noisy marketplace. =============== Awareness of seeing or visible object, hearing or sound, etc may occur anywhere. It does not depend on there being a conscious effort for it to occur. =============== > > Physical seclusion may be recommended for those developing samatha at higher levels, but it was not recommended by the Buddha to his followers at large. > > > > Samatha is a required aspect of the path. Samma-Samadhi is part of N8P, Jon. =============== Yes, I'm aware of the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, and as I've explained before, I understand these all to be momentary mental factors that accompany path-consciousness. So I do not see mundane jhana (or any specific level of samatha) as being a required aspect of the path. Jon #101251 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Does weight of kamma depend on others? jonoabb Hi pt (101137) > Jon: > > I might bring it up when we're in Bangkok next week. Could you refer me again to the passage you originally quoted? Thanks. > > Sure, the passage is from the actor sutta SN 42.2: > =============== Thanks. I'll raise it in the next few days. Jon #101252 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:42 pm Subject: Re: Some Questions jonoabb Hi Suan (101147) > "Vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam" means in English "by removing > covetousness and discontent in the world". > =============== I am used to seeing this translated as "*having removed* (or overcome) covetousness and grief in this world", whereas you prefer "by removing". I'd be interested to know how the Pali term vineyya parses. Regardless of that, however, the question is what is meant by the removal of covetousness and grief in the world *in this particular context*. Could it not be referring here to a function of awareness or insight? Jon #101253 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 12:58 pm Subject: Re: Some Questions szmicio Dear Jon and Suan, > > "Vineyya loke abhijjaadomanassam" means in English "by removing > > covetousness and discontent in the world". > > =============== > > I am used to seeing this translated as "*having removed* (or overcome) covetousness and grief in this world", whereas you prefer "by removing". I'd be interested to know how the Pali term vineyya parses. > > Regardless of that, however, the question is what is meant by the removal of covetousness and grief in the world *in this particular context*. Could it not be referring here to a function of awareness or insight? L: Actually "vineyya loke abhijjadomanassam" is mentioned by the Buddha himslef in Satipatthana section in Vibhanga. This is one instance mentioned by Buddha. Tattha katama vineya loke abhijjadomanassam - it means and what vineya loke abhijjadomanassam means? And Buddha having asked answers: that it is...(dont rememeber now), but for sure its not like the strict by removing only, its more like dosa and lobha are not present. Each instance is characterised by Buddha. atapi,sampajano ,satima. We should made up things by ourselfes, We should listen and listen. There is Dhamma in short and Dhamma in detail. Best wishes Lukas #101254 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:04 pm Subject: Re: Some Questions szmicio A typo here. > Each instance is characterised by Buddha. atapi,sampajano ,satima. We should made up things by ourselfes, We should listen and listen. There is Dhamma in short and Dhamma in detail. L: There should be: we should not made up things by ourselfes. #101255 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. nilovg Dear Han. thank you very much for providing the Pali. Where is the English omitting something? Nina. Op 11-okt-2009, om 14:18 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I tried to match the above English translation with the Pali text > as follows: > > ==================== > > He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: ‘This person > gives importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, > is inclined to sensual desires. > > kaama.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo kaamagaruko > kaamaasayo kaamaadhimutto'ti, > kaama.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo nekkhammagaruko > nekkhammaasayo nekkhammaadhimutto'ti, #101256 From: "philofillet" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 3 Sikkhaa (trainings), Suan (1). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! philofillet Hi Sarah > S: Again, it has to be the sila accompanied by pa~n~naa and the other 8-fold path factors, otherwise there will be no detachment developed from the idea of Self who has or doesn't have such sila. Again, I can't undersand why you are talking about detachment/path moments when other people are talking about step by step sila, as laid out, for exemple, in AN VI, 50. "If there is no sense control, O monks, then the basis for virtue is destroyed for one who lacks sense control. If there is no virtue, then the basis for right concentration is destroyed for one who lacks virtue," And so on for "knowledge and vision of things as they really are" (i.e the kind of panna you love to write about) You have seen this sutta a hundred times, and dodged it a hundred times, and it will go on and on. There are many suttas that make it clear that virtue and the kind of deep wisdom you aspire to are not always found together. The most obvious examples are the ones in which the Buddha teaches the deep teachings to listeners only when he has determined that their minds are ready for them. See for example, AN VIII, 21, "THe Householder Ugga": "With trusting heart I then waited upon the Blessed One. And the Blessed One gave me a gradual instruction, namely a talk on giving, on virtue, on the heavens, on the danger, vanity and impurity of sensual pleasures and on the danger of renunciation. When the Blessed One saw that my mind was prepared, susceptible, free of hindrances, elevated and lucid, he then revealed to me that Dhamma instruction paritcular to the Buddhas, namely suffering, its origin..." and so on. Now where in the teachings that came above before "the Dhamma instruction particular to the Buddhas" do you suppose "sila accompanied by panna and the other path factors otherwise there will be no detachment from the idea of Self" comes in? Of course it doesn't, but Sujinists (and not only Sujinists) must have their way to forage deep into the deepest of teachings tout de suite. But it is not the Buddha's way. Metta, Phil #101257 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: unpleasant vipaka upasaka_howard Hi,Lukas - In a message dated 10/11/2009 1:09:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear All, How to get more samvega? ---------------------------------------- Unfortunately, it is mostly suffering that conditions a sense of urgency. Reflecting on the trials one has faced and on those that one WILL face including illnesses & difficulties associated with aging plus a host of other disliked circumstances, and the loss of what and whom one loves will add to this. Another condition for experiencing a sense of "no time to lose" is accepting the teaching that being human is a rare opportunity that should not be squandered. The teaching in this last regard is that other realms of experience are either too terrible for progress or too enjoyable, with human life being the optimal middle-ground circumstance for cultivation. -------------------------------------- best wishes Lukas ============================= With metta, Howard Samsara /All around me are familiar faces Worn out places, worn out faces Bright and early for their daily races Going nowhere, going nowhere Their tears are filling up their glasses No expression, no expression Hide my head I want to drown my sorrow No tomorrow, no tomorrow And I find it kind of funny I find it kind of sad The dreams in which I'm dying Are the best I've ever had I find it hard to tell you I find it hard to take When people run in circles It's a very, very Mad World Mad world/ (Song Lyric, Mad World) #101258 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:14 pm Subject: Re: Boycott by the monks moellerdieter Hi Sarah, Han and others, you wrote: Sorry, I meant to get back to this before now.... D: never mind , Sarah , I still admire your list communication ;-) S: I'm glad to see your interest and to hear from you again! Hope you're doing well. D: seeming similarities catch my interest ....besides providing an opportunity to say Hello .. thanks I am fine and hope you are likewise ;-) S: I'm also not sure that 'excommunicate' would be the right word. In Christianity, it has a particular connotation, doesn't it, because people have joined, become members or been 'confirmed' into the Church. In Buddhism, there's no formal membership. So here it is more of a 'disassociation', as I understand it, but the effect seems similar. In Christianity, the person cannot take communion, here the person cannot offer food, but can still enter the Temple or listen to the Teachings, as I understand. Really, I know little about any of this. I'd be interested to hear any of your comments, Dieter. D: I recognized apparent similarities in particular ' no communion ' due to Han's quotation of an essay from Thanissaro Bhikkhu: "..The procedure is this: The Community meets and agrees to the transaction statement, which (in a motion and proclamation) explains the lay person's wrong doing and announces that the Community is overturning its bowl to him/her, that there is to be no communion between him/her and the Community. (The word for communion, here as elsewhere, is sambhoga, which literally means "consuming together" or "sharing wealth." In Christianty (Catholics) excommunication means being barred from participating receiving the Holy Communion ( besides Liturgy), and like in Buddhism such person can still enter the Church and listen to the mess. The offering of food to one or more monks may be well understood as a communion with the Triple Gem ( as gratitude for sharing the Buddha Dhamma) hence turning the bowl upside down and so rejecting 'Sambhoga ' seems to be quite similar , even when thinking about food (vs Last Supper), isn't it? Hence , although there a major differences too limiting the comparison , I am not really agreeing with T.B.'s conclusion ' There is no direct equivalent to excommunication in Buddhism'. B.T.W. lay people cannot eat (the offered food) together with the monks (but will wait until they finished ..) S: As I recall you either ordained or had close association with the bhikkhus in Thailand before. Were there any examples? D: I can't remember .. but unlike cases of disrobments , the public hardly wouldn't note it due to its local interest. Another story was the action of Burmese monks by turning the bowl upside down for the military during the demonstrations some time ago. with Metta Dieter #101259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 11-okt-2009, om 7:53 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Those six ~nanas, that are no shared by disciples but by Buddhas > themself, are possible to achive by disciple? > Is it posible to experience, even for a while, the one on Buddha's > knowladges? ------ N: No, that is why it is said: not shared by his disciples. How could we fathom the Buddha's knowledge. What do we know now? Seeing, visible object? ------ > > L: We know about different Buddha's disciples. Sariputta has a > great faculty of wisdom, and some other Anurudha or Maha Mogallana > a great facuty of supernatural power. Do they experience the > knowladge of twin metamorphosis? -------- N: Again, no. for the same reason. --------- L: How to get more samvega? ------ N: Samvega is not a matter of thinking about urgency. When we listen to the dhamma with the aim to understand more without thinking of a self who should understand, there is a degree of samvega already. Samvega is not something we could 'get' for ourselves. Nina. #101260 From: Staisha Perry Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:44 pm Subject: (dsg) staisha_perry Hello Friends, Wishing you all well-being, Quick question i see there is much discussion about kusula and akusula, which is excellent as well many important discussions but i like to know if you can provide more information from your understanding abouting: sunyata or sunya i have learned from the way the Dhamma is explained from letters sutta and explainations, from Khan Sujin, Nina, Sarah etc...others thank you kindly metta-staisha #101261 From: han tun Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: Dear Han, thank you very much for providing the Pali. Where is the English omitting something? ---------- Han: I will put the numbers for the sentences: [1] He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: 'This person gives importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to sensual desires'. (1) kaama.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo kaamagaruko kaamaasayo kaamaadhimutto'ti, (2) kaama.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo nekkhammagaruko nekkhammaasayo nekkhammaadhimutto'ti, ---------- [2] He also knows them as pursuing renunciation thus: 'This person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is inclined to renunciation'. (3) nekkhamma.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo nekkhammagaruko nekkhammaasayo nekkhammaadimutto'ti, (4) nekkhamma.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo kaamagaruko kaamaasayo kaamaadhimutto'ti. [1] and [2] are from your text. (1) (2) (3) and (4) are from the Pali text from the Burmese book. ==================== Han: In the Burmese book, the translation is like this: [1] He knows a person who is pursuing sensual-desires thus: 'This person gives importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to sensual desires'. [2] He knows a person who is pursuing sensual-desires thus: 'This person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is inclined to renunciation'. (1) kaama.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo kaamagaruko kaamaasayo kaamaadhimutto'ti, (2) kaama.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo nekkhammagaruko nekkhammaasayo nekkhammaadhimutto'ti, ---------- [3] He knows a person who is pursuing renunciation thus: 'This person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is inclined to renunciation'. [4] He knows a person who is pursuing renunciation thus: 'This person gives importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to sensual desires'. (3) nekkhamma.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo nekkhammagaruko nekkhammaasayo nekkhammaadimutto'ti, (4) nekkhamma.m sevanta~n~neva jaanaati 'aya.m puggalo kaamagaruko kaamaasayo kaamaadhimutto'ti. ==================== Han: In Burmese translation and the Pali text there are two different knowing in reciprocity for the same person in each case. The Pali text in the Burmese book is the same as in Sri Lanka version of the Pali text which I print below (in unconverted font): (1) kàmaü sevanta¤¤eva jànàti ' ayaü puggalo kàmagaruko kàmàsayo kàmàdhimutto'ti, (2) kàmaü3 sevanta¤¤eva jànàti ayaü puggalo nekkhammagaruko nekkhammàsayo nekkhammàdhimutto'ti, (3) nekkhammaü sevanta¤¤eva jànàti ' ayaü puggalo nekkhammagaruko nekkhammàsayo nekkhammàdimutto'ti, (4) nekkhammaü señanta¤¤eva jànàti ' ayaü puggalo kàmagaruko kàmàsayo kàmàdhimutto'ti. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/5Khuddaka-Nikaya/12Patisambhidamagga/01-M\ ahavagga/1-Nyanakatha/69-asayanusayanana-katha-p.html But I do not know the significance of this reciprocity. Respectfully, Han #101262 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: unpleasant vipaka kenhowardau Hi Lucas and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi,Lukas - > > In a message dated 10/11/2009 1:09:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > szmicio@... writes: > > Dear All, > How to get more samvega? > ---------------------------------------- > Unfortunately, it is mostly suffering that conditions a sense of urgency. ----------- I can agree with that even though I believe there is really only the present moment. Birth, ageing and dying are conventional forms of suffering that belong in the illusory (non-momentary) world that is known to ordinary people. Therefore, they play no role in satipatthana - which is known only to the wise. However, they can be useful for satipatthana by way of metaphor. For example, they can stand for the arising, persisting and falling-away of dhammas. And so, in this way, we can say it is mostly suffering (the dukkha, arising and falling away, of *any* conditioned dhamma) that conditions samvega (satipatthana). ---------------- H: > Reflecting on the trials one has faced and on those that one WILL face including illnesses & difficulties associated with aging plus a host of other disliked circumstances, and the loss of what and whom one loves will add to this. ----------------- That is true except if there is a proclivity for wrong view, in which case such reflection will lead to fantasies of eternal life and annihilation. ----------------------------- H: > Another condition for experiencing a sense of "no time to lose" is accepting the teaching that being human is a rare opportunity that should not be squandered. The teaching in this last regard is that other realms of experience are either too terrible for progress or too enjoyable, with human life being the optimal middle-ground circumstance for cultivation. ------------------------------ Yes indeed! Except, of course, if human lives and realms are believed to exist outside a single moment of nama and rupa. Ken H #101263 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:51 pm Subject: Re: (dsg) kenhowardau Hi Staisha, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Staisha Perry wrote: > > Hello Friends, > > Wishing you all well-being, > > Quick question i see there is much discussion about kusula and akusula, > which is excellent as well many important discussions > > but i like to know if you can provide more information from your understanding abouting: > sunyata or sunya > i have learned from the way the Dhamma is explained from letters sutta and explainations, from Khan Sujin, Nina, Sarah etc...others thank you kindly ------------- There is a lot of discussion here about sanyata (anatta), but there can never be too much. So please start your own thread on the subject any time you like. In the words of the Buddhist Dictionary, anatta is "the central doctrine of Buddhism . . . with which the entire teaching stands or falls. All the remaining Buddhist doctrines may, more or less, be found in other philosophic systems and religions." (end quote) Therefore, every word of the Dhamma must be understood in terms of anatta. Otherwise, we could mistake some of the Buddha's doctrines for ordinary (conventional) wisdom. And that would never do! :-) Ken H #101264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:58 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 2, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 2 The Truth of suffering Old age, sickness and death are unavoidable. Separation from dear people through death is bound to happen. We read in the Group of Discourses (Sutta-Nipåta, III, 8, The Arrow, verses 574-582 ): Unindicated and unknown is the length of life of those subject to death. Life is difficult and brief and bound up with suffering. There is no means by which those who are born will not die. Having reached old age, there is death. This is the natural course for a living being. With ripe fruits there is the constant danger that they will fall. In the same way, for those born and subject to death, there is always the fear of dying. Just as the pots made by a potter all end by being broken, so death is the breaking up of life. The young and old, the foolish and the wise, all are stopped short by the power of death, all finally end in death. Of those overcome by death and passing to another world, a father cannot hold back his son, nor relatives a relation. See! While the relatives are looking on and weeping, one by one each mortal is led away like an ox to the slaughter. In this manner the world is afflicted by death and decay. But the wise do not grieve, having realized the nature of the world… The Buddha consoled those who had suffered the loss of dear people by explaining to them the impermanence of all phenomena of life. We read in the commentary to the Psalms of the Sisters (Therígåthå, Canto X, LXIII) that a woman, named Kiså-gotamí, was completely overwhelmed by grief because of the loss of her son. She went from door to door with his corpse asking for medicine which could revive him. The Buddha said to her: “Go, enter the town, and bring from any house where yet no man has died a little mustard seed.” She did not find any family without bereavement caused by death and she realized that everything is impermanent. She went to the Buddha and he said: To him whose heart on children and on goods Is centred, clinging to them in his thoughts, Death comes like a great flood in the night, Bearing away the village in its sleep. Did the Buddha teach anything new? We all know that there has to be separation and death, that everything in life is impermanent. Thinking about impermanence is not of much help when one has suffered a loss. The Buddha taught that there is change of mental states from moment to moment and that also the physical units which constitute the body are breaking up from moment to moment. ****** Nina. #101265 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:49 am Subject: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 12 akusala, the eight rooted in attachment sprlrt Hi, I've grouped together the eight akusala lobha mùla, rooted in attachment, types of cittas listed in the Dhammasangani, Four are associated with wrong-view, ditthigatasampayutta, ditthi cetasika (1, 2, 5, 6), four are dissociated from wrong-view, ditthigatavipppayutta (3,4,7,8). Four are accompanied with mental pleasure, somanassasahagatam (1,2,3,4), four by neutral feeling, upekkhasahagatam (5,6,7,8). Four are unprompted/strong (asankhàrena) 1,3,5,7, four are prompted/weak (sasankhàrena) 2,4,6,8. Alberto Dhammasangani - Kusala dhammas, akusala dhammas and abyàkata dhammas. .... The arising of consciousness (cittuppada) The 12 akusala cittas (dvàdasa akusalacittàni) 365.(1st), 399.(2nd), 400.(3rd), 402.(4th), 403.(5th), 409.(6th), 410.(7th), 412.(8th) - Which dhammas are akusala? The moment when an akusala citta is arising, accompanied by mental pleasure [1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th], / accompanied by neutral feeling, and associated with wrong-view [1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th], / and dissociated from wrong-view, [and unprompted (strong) 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th] / and prompted (weak), concerned about the object which is [either] visible, or udible, or smellable, or tastable, or tangible, or whatever-[other]-dhamma object. At that moment there is: contact, feeling, memory, intention, consciousness, initial, and sustaining application, joy [1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th - (correction: this applies to the 8 maha kusala as well)], mental pleasure [1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th], / neutral feeling, one-pointedness of mind, the faculty of energy, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of the mind, the faculty of mental pleasure [1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th], the faculty of life, wrong view [1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th], wrong thinking, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, the power of energy, the power of concentration, the power of non-shying [akusala], the power of non-dreading [akusala], attachment, ignorance [1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th], covetousness, wrong view [1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th], non-shying [akusala], non-dreading [akusala], calm, grasp, balance. [DhsA. 'There is calm' etc.: it is [akusala] calm/concentration from not-distraction towards other modes. Samatho hoti'tiàdisu aññesu kiccesu vikkhepasamanto samatho.] These, or whatever other non-rùpa dhamma arisen by conditions, are the dhammas that are there at that moment. These dhammas are akusala. #101266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. nilovg Dear Han, Op 11-okt-2009, om 23:32 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But I do not know the significance of this reciprocity. ------ N: The contrast is very strange in one phrase: persuing sense desires and being inclined to renunciation. There are several manuscripts and, as my former teacher said, any translator should consult at least three or five manuscripts. This is the higher work, but I am not able to do this. Thank you for all the trouble comparing. Nina. #101267 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] (dsg) nilovg Dear Staisha, welcome here. Is there anything in the explanations you read that you would a further elaboration of, or that is not yet clear? It is a deep and difficult subject for everybody, especially when it comes to the application. Nina. Op 11-okt-2009, om 20:44 heeft Staisha Perry het volgende geschreven: > i like to know if you can provide more information from your > understanding abouting: > sunyata or sunya > i have learned from the way the Dhamma is explained from letters > sutta and explainations, from Khan Sujin, Nina, Sarah etc...others #101268 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: The contrast is very strange in one phrase: persuing sense desires and being inclined to renunciation. There are several manuscripts and, as my former teacher said, any translator should consult at least three or five manuscripts. This is the higher work, but I am not able to do this. Thank you for all the trouble comparing. Han: I will not pursue this particular issue any further. But I wish to inform that the Burmese translation and the Pali text in Burmese script were not the work of any individual Translator. This task was carried out at the Sixth Buddhist Council held at Rangoon from May 17, 1954, and lasting for two years, collectively by the highest Sayadaws in the country. Respectfully, Han #101269 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:06 am Subject: Pali Latent Tendencies. nilovg Dear Han, Chew and other Pali readers, On sanusaya there is more in the three tiikas. subco: 66-131, anutiika 66-131, and also in the muulayamaka tiika. It takes long to read and translate all this. Nina. #101270 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. nilovg Dear Han, Op 12-okt-2009, om 10:08 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I will not pursue this particular issue any further. But I wish to > inform that the Burmese translation and the Pali text in Burmese > script were not the work of any individual Translator. This task > was carried out at the Sixth Buddhist Council held at Rangoon from > May 17, 1954, and lasting for two years, collectively by the > highest Sayadaws in the country. ------- N: Yes, it is very thorough work, I know. The Patisambhidaamagga was translated by Nanamoli, and they used his notes, but I see no mentioning of manuscripts. What do you make out from the meaning of the text? Nina. #101272 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:03 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Path of Discrimination, Ch 69. 587. What are the defilements that are underlying tendencies in beings? There are seven underlying tendencies (anusaya): Underlying tendency to greed for sense-desire (kåma-råga), underlying tendency to aversion (paìigha), underlying tendency to conceit (måna), underlying tendency to wrong view (diììhi), underlying tendency to doubt (vicikicchå), underlying tendency to desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaråga), and underlying tendency to ignorance (avijjå).” From the above quoted text we can see that behaviour, habits and defilements are accumulated and become dormant in the succession of cittas. Since the Buddha has knowledge of beings’ biases and underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåùa), we know that there are underlying tendencies. In the “Pañcappakaraùatthakathå”, in the Commentary to the “Yamaka”, the Sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, we read in the section on the latent tendencies (anusaya-våra) and the section on “possessed of latent tendencies” (sånusaya-våra): "In the section on ‘being possessed of latent tendencies’ the Buddha said : ’Who is with the latent tendency of sense desire, he is possessed of it' . It is just like someone who suffers extremely from the sickness of old age, and so on, and, so long as he is not cured from this sickness, is called a sick person even when illness does not arise. It is the same in the case of someone with defilements who is traversing the round of rebirths whose latent tendencies have not been eradicated by the noble eightfold Path. Even though the latent tendencies do not arise he is called a person who is possessed of the latent tendencies. Thus, concerning such latent tendencies he is possessed with, he finds them quite acceptable. The other words in this section are the same as those in the section on latent tendencies.” (end quote). Thus we see that there are latent tendencies in each of the cittas that are arising and falling away in succession so long as they have not been eradicated by the noble eightfold Path. ------- Pali of commentary: 2. saanusayavaarava.n.nanaa 66-131. saanusayavaare pana yo kaamaraagaanusayena saanusayoti yathaa ekantarikajaraadirogena aabaadhiko yaava tamhaa rogaa na muccati, taava tassa rogassa anuppattikkha.nepi sarogoyeva naama hoti. eva.m sasa.mkilesassa va.t.tagaamisattassa yaava ariyamaggena anusayaa samugghaata.m na gacchanti, taava tesa.m anusayaana.m anuppattikkha.nepi saanusayoyeva naama hoti. evaruupa.m saanusayata.m sandhaaya `aamantaa'ti vutta.m. sesamettha anusayavaarasadisameva. --------- Nina. #101273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right understanding of dana. /was . . . nilovg Hi Howard, butting into your discussion with Sarah about paying respect. ---------- > Howard: And, Sarah, do those qualities appreciate our expressions > of respect, > and do they thank us? ;-)) > When we make a statement of respect, whom are we addressing? Yes, it > is the qualities we respect, and most especially the qualities of > effort and > intentional recollection and application of moral principles that > lead to > other wholesome qualities. But we are not addressing qualities when we > *express* our respect. We are addressing people.That is, we have > the expectation that our statements will be heard, understood, > contemplated, and have a multitude of cognitive and affective > repercussions over an extended period of time within ever-changing, > integrated complexes of mental and physical phenomena called "people." -------- N: I learnt that the motives for kusala are three: for the sake of oneself, for the sake of the world (other people) and for the sake of dhamma. The last one is purer. I do not deny what you say here, that we are addressing people, but it is possible to perform kusala just for the sake of dhamma. We do not expect any reaction from others, but we know: this is kusala and we are intent on kusala citta. This conditions more calm, no disappointment if others do not react. It depends on one's accumulated inclinations what type of kusala arises. Nina. #101274 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:46 am Subject: Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. szmicio Dear Nina, > > L: We know about different Buddha's disciples. Sariputta has a > > great faculty of wisdom, and some other Anurudha or Maha Mogallana > > a great facuty of supernatural power. Do they experience the > > knowladge of twin metamorphosis? > -------- > N: Again, no. for the same reason. > --------- L: And what about Sariputta? Didnt he really experience those 6 Buddha's ~nanas? There was said that Sariputta was almost like a teacher. The only guy who was called like that 'a teacher'. And also there was said, that he was developing perfection for a countless times, but Buddha devloped them 4 times longer. I was always thinking that those Buddha's qualities and ~nanas can be experienced by disciples or arahats, although it's not in domain of disciples/arahats. It's not shared by disciples. > L: How to get more samvega? > > ------ > N: Samvega is not a matter of thinking about urgency. When we listen > to the dhamma with the aim to understand more without thinking of a > self who should understand, there is a degree of samvega already. > Samvega is not something we could 'get' for ourselves. > Nina. L: I miss samvega. best wishes Lukas #101275 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 12-okt-2009, om 11:46 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: I miss samvega. ------- N: Naturally such thoughts arise. In the suttas the Buddha helped people speaking of death and the shortness of life. Think of the turtle who has to throw his neck into a loop, but only comes to the surface of the water once in many hundred of years. This is not to frighten people but to remind them how precious human life is, where we can still listen to the Dhamma. Reminders are like a goad for a horse. Some horses need very painful goads. We may hear of a relative who died, in another city, or near to us, or a very close relative or friend, or we ourselves are about to die. Some poeple need only a slight reminder, some need very sorrowful reminders. Only the Buddha knew people's deep accumulations and he knew what a particular person needed. No, not even Saariputta could equal the Buddha's wisdom. Nina. #101276 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. szmicio Dear Nina, I am grieving on the akusala I feel. They are very strong one. L. > > L: I miss samvega. > ------- > N: Naturally such thoughts arise. In the suttas the Buddha helped > people speaking of death and the shortness of life. Think of the > turtle who has to throw his neck into a loop, but only comes to the > surface of the water once in many hundred of years. This is not to > frighten people but to remind them how precious human life is, where > we can still listen to the Dhamma. #101277 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (Phil & all), We had our first discussion session with A.Sujin today - lots of discussion about siila, bringing up your comments, Phil's, Howard's and many others. The following comments are just a brief summary from my cryptic notes.. --- On Thu, 8/10/09, Lukas wrote: >L: Since I've met you, a lot of things didnt change, my siila is not better(actually is not good even), I dont have kusala, when I want to have. Still all the same, the same life, the same Lukas who's involved in all this deep daily life akusalas. .... S: K. Sujin said it's because it's 'your' siila. You're thinking about Self to know no-self. She said she can't imagine why people keep on thinking about progress. Each moment is accumulated and is gone already. Usually, no one thinks about the self and why there isn't more understanding. There's just seeing and thinking about what is seen. It's the Self that is obsessed with progress., wishing to get something else.This is the reason why there's so much akusala. We shouldn't think about progress. At the moment of seeing, there is only a dhamma. .... >L:But one thing changed since I've met you, my misery(dukkha) became weaker. That's for sure. I know about 4 Noble Truths a bit, and I know how it is against of what we used to think. This is the way in different direction that we think. It's supprising. But I grieve because my siila goes weaker from day to day. My akusala seems to persecute me, and I feel like they growing more and more. mana that is pride also dont give me rest. .... S: K.Sujin responded that perhaps the problem is that anywhere you go, you are urged to get results, to get something. Perhaps you think that listening/reading here it should be the same, but it's not. It may be due to ignorance and wrong understanding (when we think about getting results). .... >sometimes I think that maybe the way now with you, Nina, Bhante Dhammadara is not a good way. I feel like living on the edge. but be honest I cant change this. I cant start siila, when I want siila. But why I have so much akusala and dosa, that leads to akusala kamma-pattha? What if I am agitated on account of Dhamma? What if this agitation doesn't help Dhamma? I feel like no way out from my misery. .... S: This is why the Buddha taught a lot about realities. These are all realities to be known. "The bitter medicine" as Azita said. Instead of thinking about teachers and people, what about realities - just a little and a little understanding. Otherwise avijja hinders. When there's a little understanding, there's no "I" at all (at such times). Thanks for raising these points and questions, Lukas. We'll raise more of your qus - a little at a time. Metta Sarah ======== #101278 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: What do you make out from the meaning of the text? Han: IMHO it shows the unreliability of a puthujjana in pursuing either good or bad. There is a thin barrier between good and bad, like a thin barrier between love and hate, or between bravery and cowardice. A person might be seeking for spiritual development in seclusion, but he might be living with another person in the name of ta.nhaa. Angulimala might be killing the people but the Buddha knew that he had a good underlying tendency so that he could help him become an arahant. As you said, aasaya can be kusala or akusala. The person might not even know himself, but the Buddha knows his underlying tendency. This portion of the chapter can be read together with the last part of the chapter which shows that the Buddha knows beings as capable (sattaa bhabbaa) and beings as incapable (sattaa abhabbaa). All these complexities and strange pursuing of opposites are due to the underlying tendencies. Respectfully, Han #101279 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 3 Sikkhaa (trainings), Suan (1). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Howard & all, I brought up the suttas you've mentioned and also BB's quote Howard gave, my response and Phil's... BB wrote in the quote that "the roots of the path arethe constituents of sila, the factors of moral virtue. These are the basis for meditation, the ground for all wisdom and higher achievement." #101245 K.Sujin suggested we look at what the roots really are. The 3 unwholesome roots are lobha, dosa, moha. The 3 wholesome roots are of course, alobha, adosa and amoha (i.e pa~n~naa). Who has purified virtue? Even the sotapanna only has 5 (i.e 5 siila/precepts perfected). Again, by the last sentence, it all suggests a thinking of achievement for oneself, not for the sake of understanding. It is thinking about "how can I become better". There has to be an understanding of realities, not just better sila. .... --- On Sun, 11/10/09, philofillet wrote: > S: Again, it has to be the sila accompanied by pa~n~naa and the other 8-fold path factors, otherwise there will be no detachment developed from the idea of Self who has or doesn't have such sila. P:> Again, I can't undersand why you are talking about detachment/path moments when other people are talking about step by step sila, as laid out, for exemple, in AN VI, 50. "If there is no sense control, O monks, then the basis for virtue is destroyed for one who lacks sense control. If there is no virtue, then the basis for right concentration is destroyed for one who lacks virtue," And so on for "knowledge and vision of things as they really are" (i.e the kind of panna you love to write about) You have seen this sutta a hundred times, and dodged it a hundred times, and it will go on and on. .... S: K.Sujin commented that sila is the manner of speech and deeds. There can be sila with no understanding or sila with understanding. Which is better? If someone is not interested in satipatthana, they can just listen to what is said about sila, but they cannot 'go higher' - impossible. All that's possible is more sila. I mentioned your disappointment after listening to what we said, practising 'naturally' and then having a big lapse of sila. "Expectations" was her response. In other words, just because we are beginning to understand about realities or the Path, doesn't mean there won't be such lapses. Whatever we listen to can bring a moment of understanding of some degree, if there are the accumulations for such. This is why Ken H is right to stress that whatever is taught can be undersood in the light of satipatthana - but more on that tomorrow. .... >There are many suttas that make it clear that virtue and the kind of deep wisdom you aspire to are not always found together. The most obvious examples are the ones in which the Buddha teaches the deep teachings to listeners only when he has determined that their minds are ready for them. See for example, AN VIII, 21, "THe Householder Ugga": "With trusting heart I then waited upon the Blessed One. And the Blessed One gave me a gradual instruction, namely a talk on giving, on virtue, on the heavens, on the danger, vanity and impurity of sensual pleasures and on the danger of renunciation. When the Blessed One saw that my mind was prepared, susceptible, free of hindrances, elevated and lucid, he then revealed to me that Dhamma instruction paritcular to the Buddhas, namely suffering, its origin..." and so on. Now where in the teachings that came above before "the Dhamma instruction particular to the Buddhas" do you suppose "sila accompanied by panna and the other path factors otherwise there will be no detachment from the idea of Self" comes in? Of course it doesn't, but Sujinists (and not only Sujinists) must have their way to forage deep into the deepest of teachings tout de suite. But it is not the Buddha's way. ... S: K.Sujin smiled at the 'Sujinists':-). If someone just cares to have sila without panna, when will there be the beginning of panna? When? Where? What? When the citta is kusala (without any action), how will anyone know what is kusala, what is sila? Actually, a moment of kusala is sila already, but there has to be a beginning of understanding to know such a reality. When there is understanding, there is sila, there is samatha. So even when it mentions the "talk on giving, on virute...", for those who heard wisely, there would be a beginning of understanding. People who listened at the time listened with panna, so even if it was a Jataka story, they could understand it was about realities and become enlightened. It's not a matter of the wording, but the understanding of the listener at the time. We discussed the example of Sariputta fully comprehending the Truths after hearing a few lines because of his accumulated wisdom. For example, we might read about the harm of anger. When not angry, calm appears and there can be an understanding of kusala, of sila at such a time. So there are stages of understanding from beginning to understand kusala as kusala and the danger of akusala. It all depends on the listener how much can be understood when hearing/reading about sila. Good to see you around, Phil. Look forward to more in January (or before)! Metta Sarah p.s I'm tired and can hardly see the small screen now - so pls ignore any typos. ======= #101280 From: Staisha Perry Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) Ken staisha_perry thank you for your response maybe this was not properly typed by me, what im referring to is emptiness sunna, i apologize for for the mistake Nonduality-peace in the way staisha #101281 From: "Staisha" Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:02 am Subject: Re: (dsg)sunna staisha_perry i apologize for my mistake the correction should be emptiness-sunna nondual, for all phenomena pertaining towards body,rupa/mind,conciousness...dhamma all phenomena hopefully this will make a little more sense -metta, staisha #101282 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:45 pm Subject: The Burden and Prison... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What are the 5 Burdens we Cling to? I: There is the cluster of clinging to Material Form and Body (Rupa): The cluster of clinging to form is like clinging to a sick-room, since it will contain the sick and dying human being, one inevitably will develop into... The body and all external form is like a prison, since it locks one up in the painful samsaric process of repeated rebirth, ageing, sickness and death! All matter should be regarded as a lump of froth, because it will not endure existence. Form is like the dish the process of being is served upon, yet all material phenomena is impermanent, because of their inherent rise and fall. II: There is the cluster of clinging to Feeling (Vedana): Feeling is like a water-bubble, because it can only be enjoyed for an instant! Bodily painful feeling and mental unhappy feeling is like the sickness because it afflicts and torments. Feeling is the punishment beings meet in the prison, caused by disadvantageous kamma having been performed and accumulated. The consequent effect: Pain is like the food of existence, one just has to eat. III: There is the cluster of clinging to Perception (Sa~n~na): Perception of any sense experience is like a mirage because it causes illusion. It is like the provocation, that causes disease, since it gives rise to the feeling associated with any sense experience, which very often is accompanied by greed. Perception is like the offence, that brings & holds one fixed inside the prison. Experience can be likened to a spicy curry sauce poured over the food of being. No experience can ever be controlled and is thus neither me, mine, nor any self. IV: There is the cluster of clinging to Mental Construction (Sankhara): Mental construction is like returning to what is unsuitable because it is the very source of any painful feeling. Mental construction is thus the punisher in the prison and the server of the food of the distressing and excruciating feeling... Mental construction is like a banana palm trunk, because it has no solid core... Since its formation cannot be fully managed, governed or commanded it is no-self! V: There is the cluster of clinging to Consciousness (Vi~n~naana): Consciousness is like a trick, because it deceives by conjuring up a void appearance. Consciousness is the eater of the food of painful suffering inherent in existence! Consciousness is like the offender since it is the entity that is tortured by feeling. Though captivating it lasts only a single moment and will never return as the same... Whatever one loves and cling to inevitably becomes both a burden and a Prison! Collectively these 5 clusters of clinging is like an enemy with drawn sword who will kill you again, they should be seen as a burden beings wander carrying on in samsara, and a devourer and serial killer who will kill & devour any poor being repeatedly by dragging him through an endless series of rebirth, ageing, sickness and death... Have a nice relinquishing day! Friendship is the Greatest! http://What-Buddha-Said.net The Burden and Prison! #101283 From: "colette" Date: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:11 pm Subject: Who is Miss Interpretation? ksheri3 Hi Group, Interesting? Who is Miss Interpretation but more importantly, what is Miss Interpretation? I mean when we define "WHAT" Miss Interpretation actually is DOES THIS ACTUALLY MEAN THAT WE HAVE DEFINED WHO MISS INTERPRETATION ACTUALLY IS? <...> It's a hot one, isn't it, Sarah and Jon? Luv ya ;) toodles, colette #101284 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. nilovg Dear Han, Thank you, I find this a very good explanation. And it is in accordance with the text. It is more complex than we would think. We can learn from this. What do we know of the accumulated inclinations of ourselves or of others. We cannot judge others when seeing their deeds or hearing their speech. This makes us more tolerant. Decads ago on an outing with Thai friends I was harshly spoken to by someone for no reason at all. I told Khun Duang (a friend) and she said; 'These are just his accumulations." It impressed me because at that time I had not learnt much about accumulations. This helps to become more understanding of others. Nina. Op 12-okt-2009, om 14:35 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > All these complexities and strange pursuing of opposites are due to > the underlying tendencies. #101285 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 12-okt-2009, om 12:20 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I am grieving on the akusala I feel. > They are very strong one. ------ N: These are conditioned realities. When they arise nobody can change them. Read the post about expectations. Nina. #101286 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 3 Sikkhaa (trainings), Suan (1). Was: Enter The Abhidhammika 4! nilovg Dear Sarah and Lukas. Op 12-okt-2009, om 14:40 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > People who listened at the time listened with panna, so even if it > was a Jataka story, they could understand it was about realities > and become enlightened. It's not a matter of the wording, but the > understanding of the listener at the time. ---------- I like your quote of Kh Sujin very much. And this: What I just wrote to Howard: kusala for the sake of oneself, or for the sake of the world or for the sake of Dhamma. -------- I think of Lukas: Sarah: Lukas, expectations, these hinder so much. Do not have expectations about yourself, to be a very wholesome person since you listened to Dhamma. And then: listening brings a moment of understanding of some degree, if there are the accumulations for such. Be content with a moment of understanding, then there are conditions for understanding to grow. ------ Nina. #101287 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:17 pm Subject: Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. szmicio Dear Nina, Han, Phil, Howard, Ken and all How to be less involved in conflicts? How to reduce our anger? L. #101288 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. upasaka_howard Hi,Lukas (and Nina) - In a message dated 10/12/2009 6:21:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Nina, I am grieving on the akusala I feel. They are very strong one. ------------------------------------------------ I think we all have our share of unwholesome traits and inclinations, and if we are basically "good," we will regret that. But there is no need to grieve over it! Just consistently see it clearly, never ignoring the way matters actually are, never putting on blinders, but understanding that it is defilement and doing our best not to act on it. This unwholesomeness is just the way things are, impersonal, fleeting, and to be let go of. ------------------------------------------------ L ============================ With metta, Howard Impermanence /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #101289 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q. : Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 12-okt-2009, om 18:17 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > How to be less involved in conflicts? How to reduce our anger? ------ N: When you are in the middle of conflicts, there are seeing, visible object, hearing, sound and a lot of thinking of stories. There can be thinking of people with dosa. The more you understand paramattha dhammas, the less you will be involved. And even being involved is a reality, a conditioned dhamma. but all conditioned realities pass immediately, they all go, go. A person is only fleeting citta, cetasika and rupa. Why do we find a person and what he does or says so important? We can learn the difference between being involved in stories and the moments we begin to understand paramattha dhammas. Nina. #101290 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 10/12/2009 12:18:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Nina, Han, Phil, Howard, Ken and all How to be less involved in conflicts? How to reduce our anger? ------------------------------------ Mindfully see it when it is about to arise (and still weak), see it clearly and realize that it is painful, and , then, let it go. With repeated practice, the letting go becomes easier. Also, realize that the expressed anger of others is a symptom of their unhappiness, and empathize with them for that. ---------------------------------- L ====================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101291 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:50 pm Subject: Re: (dsg)sunna kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Staisha" wrote: > > i apologize for my mistake the correction should be emptiness-sunna nondual, for all phenomena pertaining towards body,rupa/mind,conciousness...dhamma all phenomena Hi Staisha, According to the Theravada texts, 'voidness' 'emptiness' 'sunyata' 'sanya' and 'anatta' are basically the same. They all refer to the no-self characteristic of paramattha dhammas (absolute realities). In Mahayana the story is very different. You probably know more about it than I do, but I have heard it explained as a denial of ultimate realities. Instead of separately existing things there is (according to this explanation) just one great ocean of existence. And any anything that *seems* to exist is *actually* nothing more than a wave, or a ripple, on that ocean. Is this where the term "non-dual" comes from? I think the Mahayana texts are saying there is no duality of the experienced and the experiencer. In any case, I can assure you that in Theravada there are namas (mental phenomena) and rupas (physical phenomena). Namas experience an object, and rupas don't experience anything. So there definitely is a duality. Ken H #101292 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:04 pm Subject: The Meaning of the 4 Noble Truths! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is the Meaning of the 4 Noble Truths? 1: This and such is Suffering is The 1st Noble Truth! The meaning of this suffering is the oppression, when pain is being formed due to the burning of frustrated desire, created when the wanted object changes into something else, now undesirable, and thereby always and inevitably is lost.. This is the meaning of Suffering, which is real, neither unreal, nor otherwise. 2: Craving is the Cause of Suffering is The 2nd Noble Truth! The meaning of craving as the origin of suffering is something that is stored and accumulating, since this source and cause of suffering, means addiction, obsession, enslavement and bondage and thus vulnerable un-free dependence.. This is the meaning of the Cause, which is real, neither unreal, nor otherwise. 3: Ceasing of Craving is the End of Suffering is The 3rd Noble Truth! The meaning of ending craving ceases suffering is escape, since one now has become sheltered and protected, due to the suffering not being recreated, when the cause of craving have subsided. Ending craving means deathlessness... This is the meaning of the End, which is real, neither unreal, nor otherwise. 4: The Noble 8-fold Way is the Path to end Suffering is The 4th Noble Truth! The meaning of the Noble 8-fold Way is outlet, since this method causes exit from the state of suffering, through knowing, seeing and understanding what is real as the dominant releasing factors, that has to be developed into a unity! This is the meaning of the Way, which is real, neither unreal, nor otherwise... Vism 494 <...> Have a nice noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #101293 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:32 am Subject: Re: Alayavijnana - Store Consciousness ~ By Venerable Dr.Walpola Rahula jonoabb Hi Chris Have just got around to reading the article (101086). > I'm wondering if anyone would care to comment on this article. Until now,I'd always thought that Theravada had no place for this concept. > =============== I think that's a correct statement of the Theravada position, namely, that there's no place for the concept of alayavijnana. And I don't think the article actually says otherwise, despite the innuendo in one or two places. The author's conclusion is that "the original idea of alayavijnana was already there in the Pali Canon of the Theravada". What does he mean by "the original idea"? On a reading of the article, it seems he means something far removed from the concept of alayavijnana itself. The author relies on the following for his conclusion regarding the "original idea" of alayavijnana: - alayavijnana is sometimes called "citta" in the Mahayana texts; - the term "alaya" is found in the Theravada suttas (albeit with a different meaning assigned to the word by the commentaries); - the description of the terms alayavijnana in the Mahayana texts ('luminous', 'pure', 'sullied by adventitious defilements') is similar to the description of citta contained in the Theravada texts; - the term 'bija' is used (albeit in different compounds) to describe both alayavijnana in the Mahayana texts and the Arahant in the Theravada texts. That I think is the gist of the 'case'. However, the existence of these few similarities does not amount to the notion that the concept of alayavijnana is part of the Theravada tradition. And as I understand, it has never been regarded as such. I'm not really sure what the significance of the article is, since the tracing of references back to 'origins' in the Theravada texts is probably possible for most or all Mahayana concepts. Jon #101294 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:21 am Subject: Re: Some Questions jonoabb Hi Phil (and Lukas) (101135) > I was left with the impression (from listening to A.S and Ven. Dhammadaro and group talks) that in the A.S approach, there is a rejection of any kind of "trying", that if one tries it is all about self trying etc, and it cannot be wholesome. > =============== I wouldn't say there's a *rejection* of any kind of trying (do you mean, like, trying not to try?!) – that would not be the development of awareness either. We all spend much of the day trying to do various things. No problem with that. The question is whether trying to have more awareness can be anything other than akusala of one kind or another. Trying to do something, in the conventional sense, is the doing of something in preparation for, or that aspires to (but falls short of), the thing to be done (in this case, the arising of kusala). When the Buddha urged the development of kusala, he was referring to actual kusala, not to attempts at kusala that are not themselves kusala. That is all that's being said. Do you read the suttas as saying otherwise? We would all like to be persons with more kusala, better sila. But this is not the same as the (momentary) appreciation of the benefits of kusala and the dangers of akusala that conditions sila or other kusala conduct to arise. =============== I remember once when A.S actually laughed at the notion that the "clenching of the teeth" that is referred to in MN 19 (20? I can never remember which) as the 5th, last resort way of removing distracting thoughts could possibly be kusala. "Clenching the teeth? Kusala?" she said, laughing at the thought. You see, this demonstrates a warped approach to weakening the pwoer of the gross defilements. =============== Yes, I remember the occasion. But there was no questioning of the notion that the clenching of the teeth *as referred to in the sutta* was kusala. What was being questioned was whether teeth-clenching undertaken by persons not of the same level of development as the monks to whom the sutta was addressed would be kusala. Personally I cannot think of any teeth-clenching situation for myself that would be kusala. =============== There is such a strong emphasis on kusala as defined by Abhidhamma, which is so very refined and rarefied, that a more common-sense understanding that wholesomeness *can* be developed even when there is clinging to self and self-need or technically akusala (as defined by Abhidhamma) things such as painful struggle. =============== I think you are saying that having 'weaker' akusala in place of 'stronger' akusala is itself a form of kusala. I really don't think that's the Buddha's teaching. This of course does not mean that one should just give in to the 'stronger' akusala. It is simply a reflection on the difficulty of developing kusala of any kind, rather than just being concerned with having less akusala' for oneself. =============== So if you only listen to A.S and her followers, you will be led to believe that any kind of trying that is not the momentry arising of kusala virya and other wholesome factors accompanying (and such an arising is very rare) is to be avoided! =============== No, no-one is suggesting that trying is *to be avoided*. Just not likely to be kusala (trying to avoid trying ;–)) =============== I think this is dangerous, could lead one to indulge in sensual desire in ways that just add to the fire of greed, hatred and delusion that are raging. And here I mean indulging in subtle ways, such as allowing the mind to run along in various delicious fancies, for example, or idly ogling women, for example, in the belief that there can be moments of kusala in there, panna about the anattaness of the ogling, for example, the deeply conditioned nature etc. And so the lazy (and mere I mean momentary laziness occuring again and again and again) indulging goes on and on, lazily, a lazily river of getting what the senses want because one of the attachments at work is the attachment to the notion of panna that makes it all ok....It is tough to cut the ogling off immediately, very tough, and sometimes it doesn't happen and there is ogling. But those tough moments of cutting off accumulate and gain power and wholesome habits come to accumulate. =============== The "tough moments of cutting off" may seem to 'work'. But if it is just replacing one form of akusala with another, it's not the development of the path. And even for someone whose goal is to become a 'better person', it's not necessarily a sustainable approach, because the underlying tendencies are so much stronger than any resolve we may have to be a better person. This of course is not to suggest that one should continue indulging gross thoughts. But we should not be under the illusion that less gross akusala necessarily means more kusala. Jon #101295 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:51 am Subject: Every word...satipatthana ( was characteristic of thinking) sarahprocter... Dear Ken H, Rob K, Nina & all, We had quite a lot of discussion on points which have been raised by Ken H and discussed at length over the last few months on the following, as in #98690 > >Ken H: "I think K Sujin is quoted as having said: "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana." .... When I read this out to K.Sujin, she nodded enthusiastically. I then read out some of Rob's comments: ... >R: I think this quote you give is misleading. > I have cited sections of the tipitaka to Khun Sujin where she says that this is not directly about satipatthana . One I cited was the sutta to sigala and the section where the buddha recommended not a. sauntering in streets at unseemly hours;and > (b) frequenting theatrical shows; > (c) indulgence in gambling which causes heedlessness. She said if people are not yet ready for satipatthana then the Buddha would teach in in way that prepared them for later insight. > > what Sujin is saying is that the Buddha's teaching is all about satipatthana/anatta or preparing the soil for satipatthana, but she doesn't claim every word in the tipitaka is a direct teaching of satipatthana. .... S: In no particular order, here are some of KS's comments I jotted down: - We can become enlightened while listening if the accumulations are there, for those who don't have to develop little by little. She stressed many times that it all comes down to the citas of the listeners. -"Without citta, there cannot be panna". When we hear each word,there can be citta accompanied by panna. Without words, who can understand anything? - Everything is related to an understanding of realities and this includes all kinds of kusala. - For a disciple like Sariputta, 'all', means more than a conventional word, because there were lots of accumulations to listen to the truth. They know what way any word may condition understanding. It's the same with the Jatakas, people could become enlightened just listening to the conventional words. The same also applies to cautions about gambling or comments about tooth-sticks. For us, however, the understanding is not so quick. If it were, we'd be like Sariputta! - The Buddha taught everything at every level to develop right understanding. Usually, like with the gambling example, there is lobha all the time. Any understanding is not-self. Sukin referred to some discussion off-list with a friend about levels of certain Teachings which have nothing to do with understanding. K.Sujin suggested there was a misunderstanding of bhavana. The friend had said that not everything was about satipatthana, but KS stressed that there must be an understanding of realities before satipatthana could develop. [Perhaps Sukin will elaborate!] Ken H, in a later message, said his theory was that" the Buddha stayed around in the world purely to teach satipatthana and vipassana." KS made a comment that it depended on the listener again. Any object can be the object of satipatthana. So, for example, whilst having friendly greetings with someone, it would depend entirely on the listeners or the person being greeted as to what kind of citta arose. F0r the Buddha, they were just friendly greetings! No expectations! - Not only for the Buddha, but for any ariyan, when words were spoken, there was no doubt about the realities, the Truths or the object of satipatthana. That's why they would all know that the following was true: "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana." - Even for those with sacca ~naana, firm understanding, there is no doubt about the object of satipatthana. Satipatthana can arise anytime. Otherwise there'd be no purpose in talking. So as understanding develops, one can listen to anything anytime. There's no more idea about specially keeping quiet (with an idea of self) or not discussing ordinary, mundane topics, such as the weather, the surf conditions or flowers:-)) - When it's sacca ~naana, the firm understanding accumulates from life to life. So this is why someone like Sariputta could immediately understand the essence on hearing a few words and attain enlightenment. - Nina and Ken H discussed whether it was correct to say: "satipatthana is implied in all parts of the Scriptures, also when it is not expressively (expressly?) mentioned". Subha's case was discussed (Subha was only taught the Brahma viharas by the Buddha). KS's comment was that the statement is correct, for those who understand. Again, as understanding develops,we can listen to anything, anyway. As in the case of Subha, who knows better than the Buddha? Others could hear and benefit with an understanding of satipatthana. - Ken H made a comment about whether animals would be encouraged to simply have good behaviour. KS said we don't need to talk about dogs - just always depends on the cittas which listen! The Buddha knew that even whilst showing friendly greetings or encouraging tooth-sticks, that sati could arise on the part of the wise. Otherwise the Buddha would be hindering progress by saying such words, clearly not the case. Again, anything can be the object of sati anytime. Even talking about babies or flying next to babies - just citta, cetasika and rupa. There can be moments of satipatthana for the speaker or the listener. If a person understood the Buddha, they could say anything. Just as when the Buddha spoke to the potter and asked for a place to stay - no expectations. - Ken H made a comment about the Buddha talking on other things first and panna later, but what about the present moment, why waste a single moment.... KS again asked what we say when we meet people? What is appropriate? The Buddha knew best. - one last comment on the akusala and kusala kamma of DO, both leading on in the cycle, so aren't they "virtually the same", Ken H asked. KS's comment was to ask what hinders the path? Of course, the answer is wrong view, taking realities for self and ignorance. So akusala does matter... **** Almost time to leave for our next session... Metta Sarah ======== #101296 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:47 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, He taught the development of the wisdom which is the direct experience of the arising and falling away of mental phenomena and physical phenomena. Kiså-gotamí did not merely think about the impermanence of life, she realized through direct experience the momentary breaking up of the mental phenomena and the physical phenomena. This changed her outlook on life and she could recover from her deep sorrow. Each mental state which arises falls away within split-seconds. At one moment we may speak kindly to someone else but the next moment the kind disposition has disappeared and we may be irritated and angry, we may even shout. It is as if we are a completely different personality at that moment. Actually this is true. Kindness has disappeared and the angry disposition is a different mental state which has arisen. Seeing, hearing or thinking are all different moments of consciousness which arise and then fall away immediately. They each arise because of their own conditioning factors. Seeing, for example is dependant on eye-sense and on its object, which is colour, and since these conditioning factors do not last, also the seeing which is conditioned by them cannot last either. Every reality which is dependant on conditions has to fall away. Since the moment of consciousness which has fallen away is followed by a new one it seems that there is a mind which lasts. In reality our life is an unbroken series of moments of consciousness which arise and fall away. Also bodily phenomena which arise, fall away. We know that the body is subject to decay, that there is old age and death, but this is not the wisdom which can directly realize the momentary breaking up of the units which constitute the body. We do not notice their vanishing after they have arisen because there are new bodily phenomena replacing the ones that have fallen away. We can notice that there is sometimes heat in the body, sometimes cold, sometimes suppleness, sometimes stiffness. This shows that there is change of bodily phenomena. Also what we call dead matter are physical phenomena which are arising and vanishing all the time. Physical phenomena arise because of conditioning factors. When we smile or cry, when we move our hand with anger or stretch out our hand in order to give, there are different bodily phenomena caused by different mental states. ******* Nina. #101297 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:03 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 49. Walshe DN 33.1.11(49) 'Four more persons: (a) living in darkness and bound for darkness (tamo tamaparaayana), (b) living in darkness and bound for the light (tamo jotiparaayana), (c) living in the light and bound for darkness, (d) living in the light and bound for the light. (Aparepi cattaaro puggalaa - tamo tamaparaayano, tamo jotiparaayano, joti tamaparaayano, joti jotiparaayano.) ---------- N: As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound for darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. He has wrong livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the three kinds of akusala, namely, through body, speech and mind. He will be reborn in an unhappy plane. As to the second case, a person who lives in darkness but who is bound for light, he lives in the same unfavorable circumstances but he performs kusala kamma. He will have a happy rebirth. As to the third case, a person who lives in the light and is bound for darkness, this is someone born into a high caste, of the khattiyas (warriors, the highest caste), who has much food and drink, who has a favorable bodily appearance, and who performs akusala kamma through body, speech and mind. He will have an uhappy rebirth. As to the fourth case, a person who lives in the light and is bound for the light, this is someone who lives in the same favorable circumstances as the third person, but he performs the three kinds of kusala kamma and has a happy rebirth. ------------ N: In this sutta we are reminded of the danger of akusala kamma that leads to an unhappy rebirth. Even if the circumstances of someone’s life are unfavorable, if one is born into a poor family and is of no account, he may still perform kusala kamma and have a happy rebirth. When someone has to receive unpleasant objects or pleasant objects during one’s life, this is the result of former kamma. The fact whether he performs akusala kamma or kusala kamma is due to his accumulated inclinations to akusala or kusala. The second case teaches us that although one’s life is extremely difficult, it is still possible to perform kusala, such as kind speech, abstaining from killing, and then the result will be a happy rebirth. We may experience unpleasant objects through the senses, but if there is wise attention kusala citta can arise. We may understand that whatever unpleasant result we receive is conditioned already by kamma. Awareness and understanding may arise of visible object, sound or whatever reality presents itself so that it is known as a mere dhamma which is impermanent. ********** Co: Tamaadiisu tamoti andhakaarabhuuto. Tamaparaaya.noti tamameva para.m ayana.m gati assaati tamaparaaya.no.... --------- Nina. #101298 From: "billybobby717" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:47 am Subject: Hi I'm new to your group. billybobby717 Hi I'm new to your group and I have a question. does the Buddha in the Tipataka tell his disciples not to take food from the hands of a woman? Where would that be? Someone suggested that and it does'nt sound familiar to me! Thanks! Billy #101300 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:32 pm Subject: Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. szmicio Dear Howard, Ken, Nina, Thank you very much. > Dear Nina, Han, Phil, Howard, Ken and all > How to be less involved in conflicts? How to reduce our anger? > ------------------------------------ > Mindfully see it when it is about to arise (and still weak), see it > clearly and realize that it is painful, and , then, let it go. With repeated > practice, the letting go becomes easier. Also, realize that the expressed > anger of others is a symptom of their unhappiness, and empathize with them > for that. > ---------------------------------- L: The point is I feel it very out of control, very. I wanna change , but it doesnt work. What if I ask you: is it good to have more akusala kamma? Alberto, Han, can you say something. Alberto, can you quote patthana? Best wishes Lukas. #101301 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio Dear Sarah, Please said Ajahn that I am not listening much, actually i stopped listen. I feel a lot of dosa when reading, instead of it i prefer play computer games or watch movies. Should I still live my daily life? Best wishes Lukas #101302 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio Dear Sarah, Ajahn said it's better not to have any expectations. I have expectation to pleasant feeling. Lukas. #101303 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > Ajahn said it's better not to have any expectations. > > I have expectation to pleasant feeling. > > Lukas. Sarah, I have expectation to get out of dukkha. And a lot more. bhava tanha, vibhava tanha, kamma tanha. Best wishes Lukas #101304 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:50 pm Subject: Introduction from a new member jonoabb [This message from a new member came to the dsg-owner account] Dear All, Mingalaba! I am Ms Win Win Yee from Yangon, Myanmar. I found DSG introduced by Chew (Chewsadhu) I do hope I can get wider knowledge from DSG. For the time being I am studying the Buddha Abhidhamma now. So I do hope I can get wider knowledge from DSG. I read the Guidelines of members carefully and it might be. May all beings be happy and longevity. With metta, Win win yee #101305 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. szmicio Dear Nina, > DN 33.1.11(49) 'Four more persons: (a) living in darkness and bound > for darkness > (tamo tamaparaayana), (b) living in darkness and bound for the light > (tamo > jotiparaayana), (c) living in the light and bound for darkness, (d) > living in > the light and bound for the light. > (Aparepi cattaaro puggalaa - tamo tamaparaayano, tamo jotiparaayano, > joti > tamaparaayano, joti jotiparaayano.) L: There was a time i was feeling like going from darkness to light, bu now I am feeling like going from darkness to darkness. Best wishes Lukas #101306 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Tue, 13/10/09, Lukas wrote: >Sarah, I have expectation to get out of dukkha. And a lot more. bhava tanha, vibhava tanha, kamma tanha. ... S: This is the problem - so many expectations about results - all for Lukas! Understanding the present reality is so precious. Today, K.Sujin stressed to us that the most important thing is understanding the sense behind the vohaara (the conventional words used by the Buddha to describe realities and the Truths). It's not a matter of just following the words, but really understanding what is being pointed to. The expectations and clinging for all these results for ourselves brings nothing but misery. Time to 'let go' and understand what appears now - it's conditioned already. We asked some more of your qus today, but I'll have to add my notes later. Don't worry if you don't feel like listening or reading....still conditioned dhammas to be known. Whatever we hear or read or play - it can all be understood in the light of satipatthana. You help us all a lot by sharing your interest and difficulties, Lukas. Keep sharing and writing. Everyone appreciates your questions and listening to/discussing the answers. The lobha, dosa and moha are common to all of us. This is why we all need to consider more about the Buddha's teachings. Metta Sarah ========= #101307 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Tue, 13/10/09, Lukas wrote: >Ajahn said it's better not to have any expectations. I have expectation to pleasant feeling. ... S: That too is a conditioned dhamma - lobha which brings disappointment. It too can be known when it appears. Just a dhamma, just an element. It doesn't belong to Lukas. Metta Sarah ========== #101308 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > > --- On Tue, 13/10/09, Lukas wrote: > >Ajahn said it's better not to have any expectations. > > I have expectation to pleasant feeling. > ... > S: That too is a conditioned dhamma - lobha which brings disappointment. It too can be known when it appears. Just a dhamma, just an element. It doesn't belong to Lukas. L: And anger, strong anger? I looks like it belongs to me. It looks like it's mine. It takes me to darkness. Best wishes Lukas #101309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi I'm new to your group. nilovg Dear Billy, welcome here. Op 13-okt-2009, om 11:47 heeft billybobby717 het volgende geschreven: > Hi I'm new to your group and I have a question. does the Buddha in > the Tipataka tell his disciples not to take food from the hands of > a woman? ------ N: The monks walk with their bowls and laypeople, men and woman alike, offer food to them by putting it in their bowl. The monks do not look at the persons who offer food, they have their eyes downcast. They can speak words of blessing. This is the way of offering I came to know of when I was living in Thailand. What are your special interests in Buddhism? Nina. #101310 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. nilovg Dear Sarah and Lukas, Op 13-okt-2009, om 14:56 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > You help us all a lot by sharing your interest and difficulties, > Lukas. Keep sharing and writing. Everyone appreciates your > questions and listening to/discussing the answers. The lobha, dosa > and moha are common to all of us. This is why we all need to > consider more about the Buddha's teachings. ------ N: Yes, very useful. i mentioned Luks' troubles to Lodewijk and he also feels oppressed by his akusala, but, he said, he would not mention it to others. This is a pity I think. Better mention it, but I cannot force him. Nina. #101311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 13-okt-2009, om 14:54 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > L: There was a time i was feeling like going from darkness to > light, bu now I am feeling like going from darkness to darkness. ------- N: I appreciate your comment, it shows you are considering. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise alternately. The other day you were helping us very much giving the Vibhanga text. Those were kusala cittas. They are alternated with conceit, and lobha, that is so common. You should remember that akusala is very common, not just Lukas. There is akusala citta that thinks, but we cannot change it. It is dhamma, it is anatta. You need to listen more, it never is enough as we always say. Listening conditions a little more understanding. Understanding leads to detachment and this makes one feel at ease, not tense. It seems you want all akusala to disappear soon, but this is impossible. The latent tendencies, accumulated for aeons condition the arising of akusala citta. Do not think too much of your akusala, those are stories. As Ken always says: there is only the present moment. As soon as there is a moment of understanding one reality at a time appearing through one of the six doors, you do not think of long stories which are useless. What is past is past and you can remember this even now while fretting about your akusala. Kh Sujin says: we should learn the difference between awareness and unawareness. When there is no thinking of stories but the study of one reality at a time you can learn the difference. Nina. #101312 From: Ken O Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas You must have patience. Buddha takes four incalculable aeons and one hundred thousand aeons to be a Buddha. Akusala accumulates since beginless time, it would take some time for it to be eradicated by panna, bhavana and sila. If we develop kusala with panna, sooner or later, the raft will reach the other side even if it is from one end of the ten thousand word system to the other end. One drop of water, little by little it will eventually become an ocean As long as you have dhamma, good friends and good teachers. The journey will be easier. Cheers Ken O #101313 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Tue, 13/10/09, Lukas wrote: >Please said Ajahn that I am not listening much, actually i stopped listen. I feel a lot of dosa when reading, instead of it i prefer play computer games or watch movies. >Should I still live my daily life? .... S: Actually, there's no choice. There is only daily life and no "I" to live it. Each moment is conditioned already - just experiences through 6 doorways, 6 worlds only, no matter what we're doing. Just be aware now of whatever appears and without any expectation about the next moment. At a moment of seeing or hearing, there's no anger, no expectation. When visible object appears, that's the only world there is at that moment. One moment at a time, Lukas....Gradually, with more understanding, there is more detachment, less clinging to self, less thoughts or ideas of results or progress or people. But again, no expectations. The only thing that matters is the understanding at this very moment. This is why we have to be brave and courageous to face up to the truth, to understand realities as they are, not as we'd like them to be. You have many good friends in Dhamma here - we can all help each other along the way. You help us all a lot too, by bravely sharing your doubts and questions as Nina just indicated as well. You can be sure that many lurkers too will have just the same misgivings and difficulties. Metta Sarah ======== #101314 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction from a new member nilovg Dear Win, Win, welcome here. How good to have someone from Myanmar, I am very glad. I appreciate it that you study the Abhidhamma. What in particular do you study now? Hoping to hear more from you, Nina. Op 13-okt-2009, om 14:50 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > [This message from a new member came to the dsg-owner account] > > Dear All, > > Mingalaba! > > I am Ms Win Win Yee from Yangon, Myanmar. > #101315 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/13/2009 6:03:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, sutta 49. Walshe DN 33.1.11(49) 'Four more persons: (a) living in darkness and bound for darkness (tamo tamaparaayana), (b) living in darkness and bound for the light (tamo jotiparaayana), (c) living in the light and bound for darkness, (d) living in the light and bound for the light. (Aparepi cattaaro puggalaa - tamo tamaparaayano, tamo jotiparaayano, joti tamaparaayano, joti jotiparaayano.) ---------- N: As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound for darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. He has wrong livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the three kinds of akusala, namely, through body, speech and mind. He will be reborn in an unhappy plane. ================================== I would like to hear more about this commentary. To me this sounds like hateful, racist garbage. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101316 From: Ken O Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q. : Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. ashkenn2k Hi Lukas I like to share this with you. A very beneficial book, I have seldom reread books for so many times and not tired of it. And, I am still it rereading again and again. This is the extract of the book I hope would help you on anger as it has benefited me. pg 93, The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment, written by Sujin and translated by Nina Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" (Miscellaneous Sayings): "The perfection of patience should be considered next: Patience is the unimpeded weapon of the good in the development of noble qualities, for it dispels anger, the opposite of all such qualities, without residue. It is the adornment of those capable of vanquishing the foe; the strength of recluses and brahims; a stream of water extinguishing the fire of anger; the basis for acquiring a good reputation; a mantra for quelling the poisonous speech of evil people; the supreme source of constancy in those established in restraint. Patience is an ocean on acount of its depth; a shore bounding the great ocean of hatred; a panel clsoing off the door to the plane of misery; a staircase ascending to the worlds of the gods and Brahms; the ground for the habitation of all noble qualities; the supreme purfication of body, speech and mind. " pg 95 "Patience should be further fortied by reflection: 'Those who lack patience are afflicted in this world and apply themselves to actions which will lead to their affliction in the life to come." And 'Although this suffering arises through the wrong deeds of others, this body of mine is the field of that suffering, and the action which is its seed was sown by me alone.' And: "The suffering will release me from the debt of that kamma." And: 'If there is no wrong-doers how could I accomplish the perfection of patience." "Although he is a wrong doer now, in the past he was my benefactor". And: "A wrong-doer is also a benefactor, for he is the basis for developing patience." "All beings are like my own children. Who becomes angry over the misdeeds of his own chidlren?" pg 96 "All those phenomena by which wrong was done, and those those to whom it was done -- all those, at this very moment, have ceased." "With whom, then, should you now be angry, and by whom should anger be aroused? When all phenomena are non-self, who can do wrong to whom" "When the wrong doer is endowed with noble qualities. I should not be angry with him When he does not have any noble qualities, then I should regard him with compassion. Because of anger, my fame and noble qualities diminish, and to the pleasure of my enemies I become ugly, sleep in discomfort, etc." "Anger is the only real enemy, for it is the agent of all harm and the destroyer of all good." And: "When one has patience one has no enemies." Cheers Ken O #101317 From: han tun Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. hantun1 Dear Lukas, > Lukas: The point is I feel it very out of control, very. I wanna change, but it doesnt work. What if I ask you: is it good to have more akusala kamma? Alberto, Han, can you say something. Alberto, can you quote patthana? Best wishes Lukas. -------------------- Han: I know that you know very well the Teachings of the Buddha. Your contributions on Vibhanga text (as Nina had noted) were exceptional. Nina and Howard also had given very good advice. I do not think I can give you a better one. It is definitely not good to have more akusala kamma. You are out of control because you feel that you are out of control. It is up to you, Lukas. If there is the will there must be the way. If you really want to change it must work. And I know that you can manage it. Please keep on trying. Please do not give up. Sincerely yours, Han #101318 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas In a message dated 10/13/2009 8:32:38 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: Dear Howard, Ken, Nina, Thank you very much. > Dear Nina, Han, Phil, Howard, Ken and all > How to be less involved in conflicts? How to reduce our anger? > ------------------------------------ > Mindfully see it when it is about to arise (and still weak), see it > clearly and realize that it is painful, and , then, let it go. With repeated > practice, the letting go becomes easier. Also, realize that the expressed > anger of others is a symptom of their unhappiness, and empathize with them > for that. > ---------------------------------- L: The point is I feel it very out of control, very. I wanna change , but it doesnt work. What if I ask you: is it good to have more akusala kamma? ---------------------------------------- Is it good? You mean is it beneficial? No, of course not. But it is what it is. There is no "quick fix." But there is a gradual one. My first suggestion: Calm yourself! Stop obsessing! Relax, accept that you are human & not divine, and just do your best. ----------------------------------------- Alberto, Han, can you say something. Alberto, can you quote patthana? Best wishes Lukas. ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101319 From: Ken O Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings). ashkenn2k Dear Scott some bit of information from Summary of Topic of Abhidhamma and Commentary Chapter 1 para 21 <> Volition co-ordinates while one pointedness prevents distraction.  Cheers Ken O ________________________________ From: scottduncan2 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 1 October 2009 12:13:37 Subject: [dsg] Re: 3 Sikkhaa (trainings).  Dear Ken and Jon, Regarding: K: "...it is cetana cetasika..." ..."'There is no such thing as volition in the four planes of existence without the characteristic of coordinating; all volition has it. But the function of Ëœwilling' is only in moral (kusala) and immoral (akusala)... " Scott: Yes, cetanaa cetasika does have this characteristic - but apparently as well as citass'ekkagata, as I quoted (Vism). Regarding 'virtue': "...It is either a coordinating (samaadhaana) , meaning non-inconsistency of bodily action, etc., due to virtuousness. .." And regarding concentration' : "...It is concentration (samaadhi) in the sense of concentrating (sammaadhaana) . What is this concentrating? It is the centering (aadhaana) of consciousness and consciousness- concomitants evenly (sama.m) and rightly (samma) on a single object; placing is what is meant..." We know that these are two separate mental factors. I would say that coordinating (samaadhaana) is a characteristic of both, likely each according to its own separate and distinct nature but still, in this sense, coordinating. It is likely that both, and even other mental factors can and must contribute to the overall 'coordinating' that must result in, say, bodily action. What think you? Sincerely, Scoot (ha ha - it's Scott, but who's he when he's at home?) #101320 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 13-okt-2009, om 15:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound > for darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the > untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. He has wrong > livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the > three kinds of akusala, namely, through body, speech and mind. He > will be reborn in an unhappy plane. > ================================== > H: I would like to hear more about this commentary. To me this sounds > like hateful, racist garbage. -------- N: At that time there were castes in India. The situation was such. This is an example of akusala vipaaka, result of kamma. Actually, it is vipaaka to be born into a poor family that is of no account. Is it not vipaaka, result of kamma, the experience of unpleasant objects through the senses? All the odds may be against someone, but he still can develop kusala and right understanding. Not the vipaaka is so important, but our reactions to it. With understanding, or without understanding. Nina. #101321 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/13/2009 2:17:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 13-okt-2009, om 15:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound > for darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the > untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. He has wrong > livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the > three kinds of akusala, namely, through body, speech and mind. He > will be reborn in an unhappy plane. > ================================== > H: I would like to hear more about this commentary. To me this sounds > like hateful, racist garbage. -------- N: At that time there were castes in India. The situation was such. ---------------------------------------- Yes, "the situation" - a *despicable* one, and not one to be approved of by good people, and certainly not by "enlightened" people, which is how I've seen "the ancient commentators" characterized on DSG. The Buddha permitted outcastes to go forth. Were they living in darkness and bound for darkness. In AN 5.179 the Buddha said the following: <> Was " living in darkness and bound for darkness" also true for African slaves, for the Native Americans massacred by the U. S. government, for women in the U. S. before they were given the vote, for the 6 million Jews and 4 million others slaughtered by the Nazis, and for the multitudes, both adults and children, murdered in Darfur? Are there no innocent victims and no perpetrators of evil? Are victims always at least in part to blame for their victimization? The raped? The tortured? The murdered? I buy NONE of this, Nina! And I reject any "commentator" who does accept it. -------------------------------------------------- This is an example of akusala vipaaka, result of kamma. Actually, it is vipaaka to be born into a poor family that is of no account. --------------------------------------------------- Hmm, "of no account"! Wow! ---------------------------------------------- Is it not vipaaka, result of kamma, the experience of unpleasant objects through the senses? All the odds may be against someone, but he still can develop kusala and right understanding. Not the vipaaka is so important, but our reactions to it. With understanding, or without understanding. Nina ============================== With metta, Howard Kindness Trumps Cleverness /When I was young, I used to admire intelligent people; as I grow older, I admire kind people./ (Abraham Joshua Heschel) #101322 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina (and all) In a message dated 10/13/2009 3:32:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > ================ I missed the first 2 words in this anti-racism quote of the Buddha's. It should read as follows: << In a herd of cattle, whether black, white, ruddy, brown, dappled, uniform, or pigeon gray: if a bull is born — tame, enduring, consummate in strength, & swift — people yoke him to burdens, regardless of his color. In the same way, wherever one is born among human beings — noble warriors, priests, merchants, workers, outcastes, or scavengers — if one is tame, with good practices, righteous, consummate in virtue, a speaker of truth, with conscience at heart, one who's abandoned birth & death, completed the holy life put down the burden, done the task fermentation-free, gone beyond all dhammas, through lack of clinging unbound: offerings to this spotless field bear an abundance of fruit. >> With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101323 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Nina), ---------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: <. . .> > I would like to hear more about this commentary. To me this sounds > like hateful, racist garbage. ----------- Maybe 'racist' is the wrong word in this case, but I think you are saying it sounds like class discrimination. The quiet, middle-class neighbourhood I live in is currently experienced a disturbing new element. In the old days it would have been called a "lower class" element. (!) I won't go into details, but a small gang of children - who have been vandalising and stealing - has been followed back to their homes and their parents spoken to. All I can say, is my anger at the vandalism and insecurity is now tempered by sympathy. If I had had the same parents those poor kids are stuck with, would I have turned out any better than they have? I doubt it. You could call my attitude 'class discrimination' because it does sound like it. I seem to be saying that *all* low-income, poorly educated, tattooed, single mothers are automatically bad parents and their children automatically criminals. But I trust DSG to look beyond that superficial assessment and see what I am really trying to say. In the same way, I try to give other DSG members the benefit of the doubt when their words can be taken the wrong way. Even more so for the ancient commentaries! They have my utmost confidence. :-) Ken H #101324 From: Billy Bobby Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi I'm new to your group. billybobby717 I think Buddhism is kool! #101325 From: "colette" Date: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:07 pm Subject: Do you mind if I butt in? ksheri3 Hi Lukas, Han, et al, Han, why did you take such a obscure and obsessed path to reply to Lucas's questions? You specifically focused on something that does not exist, something that is EXTERNAL to the INTERNAL problems that Lukas was trying to put an end to. <...> What good is it to focus on this hypothetical EXTERNAL REALITY that Lukas supposedly experiences when his problems were of an INTERNAL REALITY which he cognized and saught to cure of his own abilities? is there a cognition of EXTERNAL and INTERNAL? What kind of a cognition is it? is the problem with Lukas's failure or is the problem with Han's failure? Who cognizes INCORRECTLY? for instance Lukas says that he feels out of control. FINE, all parachutists have this physical sensation when they bail out of an airborne aircraft and they travel through this hypothetical "SPACE" in accordance with the laws of gravity. They are FALLING or 'taking a fall'. Are they, the parachutists, actually out of control? Even if you lack the ability to actually say and define what control actually means here, you can still answer the question in terms of the parachutists' abilities. IMO eventhough they, the parachutists, are falling, they are in total control of the fall and there is no such position of "out of control" OR CHAOS being the opposite of ORDER. all human beings are born with a Eustachian Tube (pardon my Miss Spelling) in their INNER EAR and this device maintains a person's equilibrium or balance. It's like a Gyroscope on/in a rocket or a satelite. if an individual lacks the cognitive abilities that rely upon the assurances of this device in the INNER EAR, then the paranoia of a CHAOTIC existance may just overwhelm the aspirant. overwhelm the aspirant so much that the paranoia becomes an outright mania. <...> Lukas, you have a Eustachian Tube which regulates your equilibrium, just as I have the same human characteristic, and all our readers have. CHAOS only exists because it is the normal condition of the universe, ORDER is the condition which should worry your consciousness since ORDER is the abnormal condition of the universe. <...>i I like the next line: > I wanna change, but it doesnt work. colette: CHANGE WHAT? First whatever it is that you want to change you have to help me understand how it actually exists? Is it an INTERNAL RUPA/NAMA or is it an EXTERNAL RUPA/NAMA? What exists that you think and believe you have to change and you want to change? good luck. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > > > Lukas: The point is I feel it very out of control, very. > I wanna change, but it doesnt work. > What if I ask you: is it good to have more akusala kamma? > Alberto, Han, can you say something. > Alberto, can you quote patthana? > Best wishes > Lukas. <...> #101326 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:04 am Subject: Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, Brief comments, from K.Sujin's responses to your Qus <2> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > 1. Is it wise reflection of vipaka or awarness of vipaka, when there is an instant blink that considers vipaka in life? I mean the moments in daily life when vipaka is appreaciated in this very moment. No people and things. .... S: Wanting results from studies and qus in order to follow. Not understanding. If it were wise, one wouldn't ask the others, because panna knows. ... > > 2. What's with thinking with dosa, and thinking with lobha? .... S: What's the difference between attachment and anger? ... > > 3. Why people walk around and try to concentrate on foots going? Why? They take this for awarness? .... S: They don't know what awareness is. Why do so many people do this? Because so many people don't understand what awareness is. > > 4. The Best way to understand? ... S: Not with attachment or desire ... > > 5. There is forgetfulness all the time, and i dont want that. .... S: How can you get that (no forgetfulness)? Not by wanting. You want awareness, but cannot get it by wanting. ... > > 6. I was very urgent and now I am not. I want to be urgent. I am not urgent now from a long time. I dont like to be not urgent. ... S: What's the use (of such urgency) without understanding right now? If you want to have it, is it right effort and an understanding of reality? You'd like to have effort, samvega, but for what? If we like to have it, want to have it, it's just wanting with ignorance. If there's understanding now, there can be samvega. ... > > 7. What's patience? ... S: Patience can be kusala or akusala. Viriya, khanti....Patient to get what you want, no matter if there's panna or not. We can sit patiently and wait for panna. Patience to get and not get. > > 8. I am patient when there are conditions to be patient. I am not patient when I want to be patient. I was patient few moments in life. The last time I was patient was long ago. Usually I think on patience, but there is no patience. .... S: Because patience cannot be "I". When there are conditions for it to arise, it arises. ... > > 8a) And if I am angry instead of be patient? What's wrong then? ... S: Not understanding about realities as not self. ... > > 8b) When I am angry, I think a lot that I am not a good guy. Not a Dhamma guy. ... S: same answer. "I" all the way. .... > > 8c) When I feel anger, I think its not normal to feel so much anger. Normal people dont feel so much anger. Am I not normal? ... S: Who is thinking? So it seems the point of study is not to understand reality, but to change behaviour for yourself. What conditions the committing of ill deeds? Ignorance. .... Metta Sarah ====== #101327 From: "dhammanando_bhikkhu" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks dhammanando_... Hi Sarah, > [I'm also wondering if Ven Dhammanando or any other bhikkhus have more knowledge of this.] I'm currently on the move -- travelling around Thailand saying my goodbyes before moving to Denmark. So, being separated from my library and with only irregular internet access, I can't help with any textual references. I can only say that Ven. Thanissaro's explanation agrees with what I've heard from every other Vinaya teacher, while I.B. Horner's seems quite untenable. That's not to say one can show Horner's reading to be in error on the basis of the text's phrasing, for in fact patta.m in the sentence "licchavissa patta.m nikkujjatu" could grammatically refer to either the monk's bowl or the layman's bowl, depending on whether one reads licchavissa as a dative ("to the Licchavii") or a genitive ("of the Licchavii"). But the problem posed by Horner's reading is this: at what point does she suppose that the bhikkhu should overturn the layman's bowl? If he overturns it while it is still in the layman's hands then the food will spill onto the floor and go to waste; and so the monk will have destroyed something that is not his to destroy, since proffered food becomes the property of the sangha only after the layman has removed his hands from it. It's hard to conceive that the Buddha would approve of bhikkhus doing such a thing, considering all the various Vinaya rules that enjoin bhikkhus to treat householders' property respectfully. On the other hand, if the bhikkhu were to receive the food and THEN tip it onto the floor, then it would rather defeat the purpose of the turning-over-the-bowl procedure, for the layman, once the bowl left his hands, would already have had his offering accepted and obtained merit thereby. This merit will not be affected at all by what the bhikkhu subsequently does with the food. But the point of the procedure is to prevent the errant householder from acquiring any merit at all via gifts to the sangha, in the hope that this will induce him to mend his ways. Best wishes, Dhammanando #101328 From: "James" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, > Op 13-okt-2009, om 15:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > N: As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound > > for darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the > > untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. He has wrong > > livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the > > three kinds of akusala, namely, through body, speech and mind. He > > will be reborn in an unhappy plane. > > ================================== James: This commentary is completely racist and any attempt to justify it is also racist (casteism is the same as racism in intent and effect. Castesim is supported with heredity beliefs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India). The Buddha was specifically against casteism so there is no way that this commentary is correct! Those who live in darkness and are bound for darkness are those who have an unfortunate birth and still do nothing to raise their circumstances, but this is not everyone in the 'untouchable' class! Many people in the untouchable class can and do raise their circumstances. Just watch 'Slumdog Millionaire'. > > H: I would like to hear more about this commentary. To me this sounds > > like hateful, racist garbage. > -------- James: Yes, is is most definitely racist garbage!!! > N: At that time there were castes in India. The situation was such. > This is an example of akusala vipaaka, result of kamma. Actually, it > is vipaaka to be born into a poor family that is of no account. Is > it not vipaaka, result of kamma, the experience of unpleasant objects > through the senses? James: It could very well be the result of akusala vipaaka to be born into the untouchable class, but I think it is very racist of you Nina to describe such people as "of no account". Good Lord! Did you just step out of the 50s or something?? Such thinking is very backward and the Buddha was opposed to it. All the odds may be against someone, but he still > can develop kusala and right understanding. Not the vipaaka is so > important, but our reactions to it. With understanding, or without > understanding. James: Well, Nina, here you are contradicting the commentary. The commentary states that there is no development of kusala and right understanding for an untouchable, an untouchable is one who lives in darkness and is headed for darkness. Nina, you can't have it both ways. You either agree completely with the commentary or you don't agree with the commentary at all. And, if you choose to agree with the commentary then you are a racist. > > Nina. > Metta, James #101329 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:23 am Subject: Re: Re Q. : Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. szmicio Dear Ken, Thank you very much. It's very accurate of how the patience arises. I've met all those minds in my life. Once or twice. Now even you said I am more sure my way is OK, and even the patience doesnt arise, it's conditioned. I read also Sarah's last answer to me: It's the right understanding that matters most. My expectations are the good states of minds, and it hinders my path. I cannot help myself by trying or expecting more kusala, but I can help developing right understanding, that is the supreme condition to all kusalas. I am a poor guy, I've spend so many time trying to develop kusalas, and it was all my dream. I've found right understanding of present moment of great importance. The text you gave are very helpful. I have to read more. Thank you. Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Hi Lukas > > I like to share this with you. A very beneficial book, I have seldom reread books for so many times and not tired of it. And, I am still it rereading again and again. > > This is the extract of the book I hope would help you on anger as it has benefited me. > > pg 93, The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment, written by Sujin and translated by Nina > Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" (Miscellaneous Sayings): > > "The perfection of patience should be considered next: Patience is the unimpeded weapon of the good in the development of noble qualities, for it dispels anger, the opposite of all such qualities, without residue. It is the adornment of those capable of vanquishing the foe; the strength of recluses and brahims; a stream of water extinguishing the fire of anger; the basis for acquiring a good reputation; a mantra for quelling the poisonous speech of evil people; the supreme source of constancy in those established in restraint. Patience is an ocean on acount of its depth; a shore bounding the great ocean of hatred; a panel clsoing off the door to the plane of misery; a staircase ascending to the worlds of the gods and Brahms; the ground for the habitation of all noble qualities; the supreme purfication of body, speech and mind. " > > #101330 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio Dear Nina and Loedwik, > > You help us all a lot by sharing your interest and difficulties, > > Lukas. Keep sharing and writing. Everyone appreciates your > > questions and listening to/discussing the answers. The lobha, dosa > > and moha are common to all of us. This is why we all need to > > consider more about the Buddha's teachings. > ------ > N: Yes, very useful. i mentioned Luks' troubles to Lodewijk and he > also feels oppressed by his akusala, but, he said, he would not > mention it to others. This is a pity I think. Better mention it, but > I cannot force him. L: I have a message to Loedwik, because I remember, you mentioned, Nina, that I had been changed,and all those past doubts are gone. And what I can say: It can back each time, no matter what we think. It can look like we are changed,purified and have sati..etc but the deepest akusala can arise each moment. Actually, there was a time Loedwik shared his doubts and problems. I remember, he said very bravely to Acharn: "Please tell me Acharn, what is sati. I live so long and I have not sati". Another time you mentioned he's bothering wheather there is sati or not in his life. I can just say, that we dont know what will be next. I was very happy and again strong dosa and akusala get back to me. We dont even need to think: "that's my own kamma that backed to me", that's simple kamma, vipaka. And no one can made it understand. That's in accordance to Loedwik doubts.We dont know what's next. I know it intelectully, I learned it in my life, that things are really out of control, but it's only my own thinking. But I think's good to mention. Also this kind of daily life thinking can be kusala reflection. And it accumulates more pariyatti. Am I right? Just my present thoughts. I dont feel well. I am socati. best wishes Lukas P.s please tell it to Loedwik. And also dont stress him to speak on dsg, or something like that. Actually I respect his minds not to speak much. Also some issues differenciate us here on the group. #101331 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio Nina, You mentioned about my past kusala. But i dont rememebr my past kusalas. Hovewer I remember my past akusalas. I think on them with dosa. I dont remember kusalas. Best wishes Lukas #101332 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. kenhowardau Hi James and Howard, In all the time you have been at DSG have you ever once had any reason to suspect any of us of racism? No, of course you haven't. Now one of us (Nina) has used the term "of no account" in a way that could have been misconstrued. Instead of saying that a lowly birth was no obstacle to mental development, Nina may, at first glance, have been taken to be saying that poor people were of no account. As if she would! I think the big question is, why are you so eager to attack the ancient commentaries and anyone who supports them? Isn't it just because they contradict your [formal-practice based] understanding of the Dhamma? Is that a good enough reason? Ken H #101333 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. ptaus1 Hi James and Howard, Imo, you are misreading the commentary and needlessly putting forward accusations of racism. Please read the whole paragraph again: "As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound for darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. He has wrong livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the three kinds of akusala, namely, through body, speech and mind. He will be reborn in an unhappy plane. As to the second case, a person who lives in darkness but who is bound for light, he lives in the same unfavorable circumstances but he performs kusala kamma. He will have a happy rebirth. As to the third case, a person who lives in the light and is bound for darkness, this is someone born into a high caste, of the khattiyas (warriors, the highest caste), who has much food and drink, who has a favorable bodily appearance, and who performs akusala kamma through body, speech and mind. He will have an uhappy rebirth. As to the fourth case, a person who lives in the light and is bound for the light, this is someone who lives in the same favorable circumstances as the third person, but he performs the three kinds of kusala kamma and has a happy rebirth." pt: As I read it, the circumstances of birth (poor-rich, low caste-high cast) are irrelevant (of no account, as Nina puts it) because the future destination of the person will depend solely on his/her actions - if actions are wholesome, they will lead to light (fortunate destination), or to dark (bad destination) if unwholesome. So, this paragraph is the antithesis of racism. To reiterate, please notice the first two cases - though in both cases the person is born in darkness (poor), in the first case his bad actions lead him to dark destination, while in the second case he ends up in light thanks to his good actions. Again, he's original birth in darkness is of no consequence, or of no account, because his future desitantion will depend solely on his actions. Best wishes pt #101334 From: "sprlrt" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:00 am Subject: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 12 akusala, 2 rooted in aversion sprlrt Hi Lukas & all, I think that, because of its unique feature, unpleasantness, akusala it's easier to spot when associated with dosa than when it arises with lobha, which shares pleasant and neutral feeling with kusala cittas. But of course as soon as it turns into "my dosa, my unpleasant feelings", it's the end of the paramattha dhammas story (the Dhamma) and the beginning of conventional dosa (i.e. the objects of dosa-mùla cittas, paññatti/concepts such as oneself, other people, unpleasant stories, situations etc.). Understanding of realities can only grow, develop and accumulate little by little, like the wearing off of the knife handle, unnoticingly, as K. Sujin often reminds us, with non-attachment, without expectations, just for the sake of understanding realities as they are, both when they happen to be pleasant or unpleasant, or neither pleasant nor unpleasant. Alberto Dhammasangani - Kusala dhammas, akusala dhammas and abyàkata dhammas. .... The arising of consciousness (cittuppada) The 12 akusala cittas (dvàdasa akusalacittàni) [The two rooted in dosa] 413.(1st), 421.(2nd) - Which dhammas are akusala? The moment when an akusala citta is arising, accompanied by mental displeasure and associated with aversion, [and unprompted (strong) 1st] / and prompted (weak), concerned about the object which is [either] visible, or udible, or smellable, or tastable, or tangible, or whatever-[other]-dhamma object. At that moment there is: contact, feeling, memory, intention, consciousness, initial, and sustaining application, mental displeasure, one-pointedness of mind, the faculty of energy, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of the mind, the faculty of mental displeasure, the faculty of life, wrong thinking, wrong effort, wrong concentration, the power of energy, the power of concentration, the power of non-shying [akusala], the power of non-dreading [akusala], aversion, ignorance [correction to my prev. post: ignorance (of realities) arises with all akusala cittas], ill-will, non-shying [akusala], non-dreading [akusala], calm [DhsA: from not-distraction towards other modes], grasp, balance. These, and whatever other non-rùpa dhamma arisen by conditions, are the dhammas that are there at that moment. These dhammas are akusala. #101335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. nilovg Hi Howard, James, Ken, Albert, Op 14-okt-2009, om 5:59 heeft James het volgende geschreven: > It could very well be the result of akusala vipaaka to be born into > the untouchable class, but I think it is very racist of you Nina to > describe such people as "of no account". ------- N: Of no account, I meant he is in such circumstances (poor, not of noble birth, ugly in body) that he is not esteemed by people. Lack of honour is also the result of kamma. But in the suttas we see that also slave girls (Kujuttara) could become arahats. At that time there were casts, and also slaves. The situation was like that. Howard, James, see the answers given by Ken, Albert. Howard: They are not to blame, but former kamma produces result today. Nobody can escape this. That is why life is dukkha, being in the cycle is dukkha. Nina. #101337 From: "dhammanando_bhikkhu" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sex. . . dhammanando_... Hi JC, > I would like to ask if a husband allows his wife to have sex with another > man (even bodhisattas give their wives and children to whoever asks it > from him, right?) will the other man be committing illicit sex by having > sex with the husband's wife? In the case of Bodhisattas the texts don't say that they're willing to give their wives and children away to just anyone. The commentary to the Cariyaapi.taka excludes certain persons from the class of fit recipients. Men given over to cruelty, for example. Also, the same text stipulates that Bodhisattas will only give away a wife who consents to this. However, the only Jaataka story in which this is actually depicted as happening (the Vessantara) is of doubtful relevance to your question: the question of sex doesn't arise since the recipient of Vessantara's wife is the god Sakka in disguise. I think the answer will depend on whether the first husband is giving away his wife for good or just getting into some kind of short-term wife-swapping thing. In the first case it would amount to just a rather primitive kind of divorce and remarriage. The woman would cease to be the first man's wife and become the second man's, so the second man would not be committing sexual misconduct. Sexual misconduct (kaamesu micchaacaara). means sexual intercourse with someone who is agama.niiya, "not to be gone to". For a heterosexual male this means the 10 kinds of wives and 10 kinds of protected women. But in this case the man would simply be having sex with his own wife. In the second case, the short-term wife-swapping scenario, behaviour of this kind would fall under itthiidhutta, translated as `rakishness' or `debauchery' (though literally it means `addiction to women'). In the Paraabhava Sutta and its commentary itthiidhutta is defined as ephemeral liaisons (sex with prostitutes, participation in orgies, one-night stands etc.) and also when very old men (those over 80 according to the commentary) take very young women as wives. The kinds of conduct that fall under itthiidhutta are not regarded as a breach of the third precept or as the akusala kammapatha of sexual misconduct, provided one's partner is not agama.niiya. However, they are discommended on the grounds that they lead to various kinds of decline in the present life (loss of wealth and reputation, forfeiting the good opinion of the wise etc.). > Please state sutta sources for the answer. I'm afraid I'll have to postpone doing this until I'm back in Bangkok. Regarding your other question (the one you e-mailed to me) about the decline of the Buddha's dispensation, I hope you don't mind if I reply here as I seem to have mislaid the e-mail. Briefly: 1. The Pali atthakathaas and sub-commentaries are unanimous in their view that realization (pa.tivedha) in Gotama's dispensation will last for 5,000 years and then cease. This point is not contested by anyone. 2. However, there is no unanimity in the Atthakathaas concerning the manner of decline during these 5,000 years. Rather, there are four quite discrepant predictions of both the order of decline and the timescale for how long each kind of ariyan attainment will last. 3. Buddhaghosa himself only reports the discrepant predictions without offering any personal comment. He doesn't draw attention to the discrepancies in the predictions, or attempt to reconcile them or advocate that one of them should be preferred over the others. 4. In the sub-commentaries to the Tipi.taka, together with various minor Vinaya treatise of the 12th-13th centuries, the discrepancies in the predictions are noted and explained as being due to their very origin: they are merely the opinions that arose among different groups of text-reciters (bhaa.naka) and which Buddhaghosa encountered here and there and wished to record for posterity. 5. If the sub-commentaries are right, then it follows that the status of the predictions is not that of authoritative commentary (i.e., they are not sourced in the atthakathaas brought to Ceylon by Mahinda. 6. It further follows that such claims as "non-returnership is the highest ariyan attainment possible in the present age" or "attainment in the present age is possible only by dry-visioned practice, not by jhaana" have only the flimsiest textual support. To Sarah, Jon, Nina, Rob, etc. I realize the point of view I have expressed above is rather different to the one usually voiced in DSG on this subject. However, inasmuch as this judgment of the .Tiikaa authors has not to my knowledge been challenged by any Theravaadin scholar of note for the last eight centuries, I believe it has a much stronger claim to being the orthodox Theravadin view than that expressed in the Thai article translated by Nina ("The Disappearance of Ariyans") to which readers of DSG are often directed. The conclusion in that article is: "It can be concluded that at the present time, which is the third period of thousand years in the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama, nobody has the excellent qualities of the degree of the arahat, and the highest attainment will only be that of the anaagaamii." The problem with this conclusion is that it is based upon seriously inadequate research that doesn't take into account all of the relevant textual sources. In particular: 1. The article's authors base their conclusion on the prediction of decline in the Vinaya Atthakathaa, and a parallel passage in the Anguttara Atthakathaa, but ignore a discrepant prediction also contained in the Anguttara Atthakathaa (commentary to a nameless sutta in the Pamaadaadi Vagga of the Ekanipaata). 2. They ignore the discrepant prediction in the Samyutta Atthakathaa (commentary to the Saddhammapa.tiruupaka Sutta). 3. They misunderstand the Digha Atthakathaa's commentary to the Sampasaadaniiya Sutta as being relevant only to the decline of the past dispensation of Kassapa Buddha. But the very reason for the commentary describing the decline of pa.tivedha in Kassapa's dispensation is that the Diigha-bhaa.nakas held that pa.tivedha in Gotama's dispensation would decline in an identical pattern (as attested in the Anguttara and Vinaya sub-commentaries). 4. They neglect all of the sub-commentarial and Vinaya treatises in which these discrepancies are addressed. These are chiefly the Saaratthadiipanii.tiikaa to the Vinaya Pi.taka, the .tiikaa to the Anguttara Nikaaya, and two other Vinaya treatises: the Siimavisodhanii and Vimativinodanii. I regret that I'm not able to give precise citations right now as I'm separated from my library and writing from memory, but I will try to rectify this omission when I'm back in Bangkok. Best wishes, Dhammanando #101338 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: was Sex. . .The decline of Buddhism. nilovg Venerable Dhammanando, Thank you for your mail. What you mention here is certainly interesting. I would be interested to hear more when you have time and back in Bgk. I myself know very little of tiika commentaries and Pali texts. I just like to listen more. With respect, Nina. Op 14-okt-2009, om 9:44 heeft dhammanando_bhikkhu het volgende geschreven: > They neglect all of the sub-commentarial and Vinaya treatises in > which these discrepancies are addressed. These are chiefly the > Saaratthadiipanii.tiikaa to the Vinaya Pi.taka, the .tiikaa to the > Anguttara Nikaaya, and two other Vinaya treatises: the > Siimavisodhanii and Vimativinodanii. > > I regret that I'm not able to give precise citations right now #101339 From: "James" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. buddhatrue Hi Pt, So, the commentary isn't as bad as I thought, but it is still racist. The Buddha would not have automatically defined the 'untouchable' class as 'in darkness'; in darkness could relate to many different types of people born into unfavorable circumstances, not just the 'untouchable' class. The Buddha didn't categorize and stereotype in that way. However, whoever wrote the commentaries did suffer from racism to think in just these terms. Metta, James #101340 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. nilovg Hi James, Well, that is your opinion. I just leave the matter. Han would say: I do not pursue this any further :-)) Nina. Op 14-okt-2009, om 10:11 heeft James het volgende geschreven: > However, whoever wrote the commentaries did suffer from racism to > think in just these terms. #101341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:31 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 2, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Bodily phenomena and also the physical phenomena outside arise because of their own conditioning factors and they have to fall away. Science also teaches the momentary change of physical phenomena, but the aim of the Buddha’s teachings is completely different, the aim is detachment from all phenomena. The “eye of wisdom” which sees impermanence is different from a microscope through which one watches the change of the smallest physical units. The wisdom which directly realizes the momentary impermanence of phenomena eventually leads to detachment. Our life can be compared with the flux of a river. A river seems to keep its identity but in reality not one drop of water stays the same while the river is flowing on and on. In the same way what we call a “person” seems to keep its identity, but in reality there are mere passing mental phenomena and physical phenomena. These phenomena arise because of their appropriate conditions and then fall away. It can be noticed that people have different characters, but what is called “character” are phenomena which have been conditioned by phenomena in the past. Since our life is an unbroken series of moments of consciousness arising in succession, the past moments can condition the present moment and the present moment can condition the future moments. There were wholesome and unwholesome moments in the past and these condition the arising of wholesome and unwholesome moments today. What is learnt today is never lost, moments of understanding today can be accumulated and in that way understanding can develop. We conceive life as a long duration of time, lasting from the moment of birth until death. If the momentary arising and vanishing of each reality is taken into consideration, it can be said that there is birth and death at each moment. Seeing arises but it does not last, it falls away immediately. At another moment there is hearing, but it does not last either. Thinking changes each moment, there is thinking of different things all the time. It can be noticed that there can only be thinking of one thing, not more than one thing, at a time. It may seem that thinking can last, but in reality there are different moments of consciousness succeeding one another extremely rapidly. ****** Nina. #101342 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. ptaus1 Hi James, > J: The Buddha would not have automatically defined the 'untouchable' class as 'in darkness'; in darkness could relate to many different types of people born into unfavorable circumstances, not just the 'untouchable' class. pt: Yes, that's possible. My understanding at the moment is that the commentary is simply generalizing in order to provide a simple example - I'm guessing that equating those born in unfavorable circumstances to the untouchables was probably a common analogy at the time (kind of like some today equate birth in unfavorable circumstances to birth in a "third world" country that's ravaged by famine, war, etc - and I'd agree because I lived in such countries). But I don't see a way that we can make sure one way or the other. Either way, I'd say that's only a minor point of the paragraph, and it shouldn't distract from the main point that the future destination will depend on one's actions, not the circumstances of birth (and this can be further extended to all other circumstances like race, nationality, class, etc). Anyway, that's how I understand it at the moment. Best wishes pt #101343 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and pt) - In a message dated 10/14/2009 4:11:30 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: So, the commentary isn't as bad as I thought, but it is still racist. ---------------------------------------- I think it IS that bad. The first case of being in darkness and bound for darkness, and only that case, is reserved for the untouchables: "As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound for darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. He has wrong livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the three kinds of akusala, namely, through body, speech and mind. He will be reborn in an unhappy plane." This views the low-caste people as almost subhuman, much as the Nazis viewed various groups, as early Americans viewed the Native Americans, and so on. Not only is this case reserved for the untouchables, but think of what the case is: "being in darkness and bound for darkness," which means that due to their birth and appearance etc, they are inherently doomed! That is so truly racist! ----------------------------------------- The Buddha would not have automatically defined the 'untouchable' class as 'in darkness'; in darkness could relate to many different types of people born into unfavorable circumstances, not just the 'untouchable' class. ----------------------------------------- Exactly! Moreover, the status of the untouchables says more about the low-minds of the others than anything about them. The Buddha fully rejected the caste system. Look at how HE defined 'brahmin' for example - by character, and NOT by birth. -------------------------------------------- The Buddha didn't categorize and stereotype in that way. --------------------------------------------- Quite so. ---------------------------------------------- However, whoever wrote the commentaries did suffer from racism to think in just these terms. ----------------------------------------------- So seems to me. (That is, whoever wrote THIS commentary.) =========================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101344 From: "James" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. buddhatrue Hi Ken H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James and Howard, > > In all the time you have been at DSG have you ever once had any reason > to suspect any of us of racism? No, of course you haven't. Now one of us > (Nina) has used the term "of no account" in a way that could have been > misconstrued. Instead of saying that a lowly birth was no obstacle to > mental development, Nina may, at first glance, have been taken to be > saying that poor people were of no account. As if she would! James: I vowed that I wouldn't post to you again Ken, but I am going to break that vow in this circumstance. Ken, in your zealous effort to protect those who are dear to you, you have again exaggerated the situation. I did not call Nina a racist and I do not believe that Nina is a racist. As I have said many many times, I believe that Nina is a very sweet and kind woman- to everyone. However, she can sometimes get into this 'mode' of defending the commentaries no matter where that leads her. So, her biggest fault is blind faith, not racism. Actually, Nina has travelled many times to India to mix with all of the classes, while I have avoided that country like the plague! So, if anyone is racist, maybe I am?? (but I doubt it). I was just trying to make a point...a very important point...and again you come along and blow everything out of proportion. > > I think the big question is, why are you so eager to attack the ancient > commentaries and anyone who supports them? Isn't it just because they > contradict your [formal-practice based] understanding of the Dhamma? Is > that a good enough reason? > James: Oh, blah, blah, blah. Who is the drama queen here? Who is the one so willing to blow everything out of proportion?? You know Ken, I think you are really smart, but I get tired of these dramatics with you. Metta, James #101345 From: "James" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. buddhatrue Hi pt, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi James, > > > J: The Buddha would not have automatically defined the 'untouchable' class as 'in darkness'; in darkness could relate to many different types of people born into unfavorable circumstances, not just the 'untouchable' class. > > pt: > Yes, that's possible. My understanding at the moment is that the commentary is simply generalizing in order to provide a simple example - I'm guessing that equating those born in unfavorable circumstances to the untouchables was probably a common analogy at the time (kind of like some today equate birth in unfavorable circumstances to birth in a "third world" country that's ravaged by famine, war, etc - and I'd agree because I lived in such countries). But I don't see a way that we can make sure one way or the other. > James: This is a possible interpretation. But the commentary is supposed to be the EXACT meaning of what the Buddha intended, not just 'an example' or 'a generalization' of what he might have intended. And, even if you don't agree with that, do you think the Buddha, who opposed the caste system his entire life, would have suddenly generalized all 'untouchables' as 'in darkness'? Personally, I don't think so or I wouldn't be a devout Buddhist. > Either way, I'd say that's only a minor point of the paragraph, and it shouldn't distract from the main point that the future destination will depend on one's actions, not the circumstances of birth (and this can be further extended to all other circumstances like race, nationality, class, etc). Anyway, that's how I understand it at the moment. > James: I couldn't really say what are the 'minor' points and what are the 'major' points of that commentary paragraph. I guess it depends on the reader. But I am glad that you understand the main point of what the Buddha was saying: no matter what circumstances you are born into, you should always reach for the light, the wholesome. Metta, James #101346 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:03 pm Subject: Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. gazita2002 hallo Lukas, Nina and others, "we cling to the wind" this was one of the comments from todays discussion at the foundation. I found this quite a little treasure. I understand it to mean that we cling to "our" kusala and we dont want akusala, but what can we do about it? Kusala citta arises for a very brief time and is gone again, so any clinging to understanding or generosity is like clinging to the wind. I think that when we start to learn about kusala, akusala, kamma, citta, cetasika, rupa etc we want to understand now, but it cannot happen like that. There is only understanding when it arises and noone can make understanding arise. Another comment I wrote down was 'we shouldn't realy think about our akusala. Just listen and let go! Cant catch the wind!!! patience, courage and good cheer,. azita #101347 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. upasaka_howard Hi, Azita (and Lukas & Nina) - In a message dated 10/14/2009 9:03:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@... writes: hallo Lukas, Nina and others, "we cling to the wind" this was one of the comments from todays discussion at the foundation. I found this quite a little treasure. I understand it to mean that we cling to "our" kusala and we dont want akusala, but what can we do about it? ---------------------------------------- What to do? One half of right effort: [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. ----------------------------------------------- Kusala citta arises for a very brief time and is gone again, so any clinging to understanding or generosity is like clinging to the wind. ------------------------------------------- It's never good to cling. However, it IS good to avoid and resist evil. ------------------------------------------- I think that when we start to learn about kusala, akusala, kamma, citta, cetasika, rupa etc we want to understand now, but it cannot happen like that. There is only understanding when it arises and noone can make understanding arise. Another comment I wrote down was 'we shouldn't realy think about our akusala. Just listen and let go! Cant catch the wind!!! patience, courage and good cheer,. azita ======================= With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101348 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. nilovg Dear James, Op 14-okt-2009, om 6:40 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > We dont know what's next. > I know it intelectully, I learned it in my life, that things are > really out of control, but it's only my own thinking. But I think's > good to mention. Also this kind of daily life thinking can be > kusala reflection. And it accumulates more pariyatti. > Am I right? Just my present thoughts. > I dont feel well. I am socati. ------ N: I passed on your letter to Lodewijk and he appreciates it. Yes, it is right, by wise reflection pariyatti develops. Because of conditions sa~n~naa can remember kusala and akusala, but let us not hold on, it goes with the wind, so quickly. Or, as Kh Sujin says, like a flash of lightning. You do not feel well, that means also ruupas, bodily weakness is a condition for different cittas. it seems since you went to Sweden. Perhaps very tired. Not eating enough? All these things work, they are natural strong dependence condition for the cittas. You said: I dont remember kusala. Sarah and I mentioned your help with kusala, just to encourage you. There are not only akusala cittas but also kusala cittas. But they are not yours as you know. Sarah reminded you of courage and patience, and also Ken O with his quote. It needs courage to study nama and rupa, one world at a time, one object through one of the six doors, day in day out. Nina. #101349 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. nilovg Dear James, Lukas, Mistake, I meant to address Lukas, but James wouldn't mind I am sure. He had so many kind words. But, James, I am not in a mood to defend anybody. As I wrote to Ven. Dhammanando, I just like to listen. What good is there in defending? Nina. #101350 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. ptaus1 Hi Howard, It still seems to me you might be misreading the following - you quote two sentences from the passage: 1. "As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound for darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. 2. He has wrong livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the three kinds of akusala, namely, through body, speech and mind. He will be reborn in an unhappy plane." pt: If I understand correctly, you seem to equate the second sentence to the description of untouchables, and that's why it seems racist: > H: This views the low-caste people as almost subhuman, much as the Nazis viewed various groups... pt: To me it seems this second sentence has nothing to do with untouchables per se, but simply describes someone who commits bad actions and ends up in a bad destination because of it, not because of birth, caste, nationality, etc. In fact, this sentence is very similar to the description of beings who are born in light and end up in darkness (third case), except that their outward appearance is favorable (so appearance seems irrelevant to me in both cases because it is simply vipaka, just like birth in heaven or hell, rich or poor family, etc, is also just vipaka). So, I can't really see any racism in the above. I agree though that the first sentence might have been worded a little better by saying "unfavorable circumstances" instead of "untouchables" like James suggested, though I think it's hard to ascertain what context the term "untoucahble" had exactly at the time of writing and translations (a derogatory term, a synonym for poverty, etc). Best wishes pt #101351 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:19 pm Subject: Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio Dear Nina, the mind is very opinion-forming. I grasp to what i think is true. I grasp to different concepts on Dhamma with pleasant feeling, and I dont like when someone thinks different way. I consider my own Dhamma opinion as only one that's true. That bothers me. I am attached to my own opinion. The mind works like that it grasps something and will hold on it no matter what. then the objects of speculations goes away naturaly and mind is looking for something else to speculate. It bothers me. I cannot find the way to get out of it. This is a deep suffering. Best wishes Lukas What's na vattaba, i forgot. #101352 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio Dear Howard, nice to feel your support. Best wishes Lukas #101353 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. nilovg Dear friends, 2. The latent tendencies have “arisen” in the sense of “having obtained a soil” [9] (bhumiladdhuppanna). This refers to the defilements that cannot yet be eradicated and are present in their own soil. First of all we should study the text that explains the meaning of the term “arisen”, uppanna, in the Commentray to the “Dhammasangaùi”, the “Expositor” (Book I, Part II, Ch I, 67): “Herein its word-definition: ‘present or existing’ is called uppanna, because it has arrived at the portal, so to speak, of genesis, etc. , after the end of the previous state 10. This word uppanna has many meanings: ‘past,’ ‘getting,’ ‘uprisen,’ ‘not discarded,’ ‘not completely cut off,’ ‘the totality of the three instants.’ In such passages as, ‘Bhikkhus, at that time Kakusandha, the Blessed One, the Saint has arisen in the world’- uppanna is used in the sense of ‘past’. ‘To the elder Ånanda has arisen a superfluous robe’- here uppanna means ‘getting’. ‘Even, bhikkhus, as a strong wind at intervals disperses a great mass of clouds that have arisen’- here upanna means ‘uprisen’. ‘The wandering of the mind which has arisen is difficult to remove; (mindfulness on respiration) then and there causes evil, i.e., immoral states, to disappear every time they have arisen,- here upanna means ‘not discarded’. ‘One who cultivates, practises many times the Ariyan Eightfold Path causes at intervals evil, i.e., immoral, states to disappear then and there every time they have arisen’ - here uppanna means ‘not cut off’. In the catechism, ‘Is a thing arisen in the course of generation ? Yes’-- uppanna has the meaning of ‘reached the totality of the three instants,’ ‘is existing’, or ‘is present’. ...” From these text quotations we can see that the word ‘uppanna’, arisen, has many meanings. But here in the sense of “arisen” in the sense of “having obtained a soil” (bhumiladdhuppanna), it means: not cut off. “Arisen in the sense of having obtained a soil” refers to the defilements which have not been eradicated and which have obtained a soil. In the Commentary to the “Book of Analysis”, the “Dispeller of Delusion”, Ch 8, Classification of the Right Efforts, Suttanta Division, 1448, it is said: “But the five aggregates are called the plane of insight. These are divided into past, future and present. But the defilements inhering in these are not to be said to be past, future or present; inhering in the past aggregates, they are unabandoned. Inhering in the future aggregates and in the present aggregates, they are also unabandoned. This is called ‘arisen having obtained a plane’. Hence the ancients said: ‘The defilements which are unabolished in this or that plane are counted as arisen having obtained a soil’.” -------- footnote 9: A fertile soil. They are potential defilements in the sense of possessing a fertile soil for their arising. ---------- Nina. #101354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. nilovg Dear pt, Untouchable is a term used for this cast, ca.n.dala. I do not think much of the word untouchable. Nina. Op 14-okt-2009, om 15:33 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > though I think it's hard to ascertain what context the term > "untoucahble" had exactly at the time of writing and translations > (a derogatory term, a synonym for poverty, etc). #101355 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 14-okt-2009, om 16:19 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > What's na vattaba, i forgot. ------- N: Navattabba.m: what should not be said, it means not so classifiable. Sometimes cittas cannot be classified in this or that way. We have to look at the context. You write: it is condiitoned, accumulations. Do not try to change anything but understand it. You take things too heavily. This is not at all the Dhamma way. Nina. #101356 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:40 pm Subject: Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. szmicio Dear Azita, Thanks for "we cling to the wind". What's the wind? the ruupa of wind can be experience by bodyconsciousness. In daily life I am involved in daily life problems and dont think on wind element. i think of people and things. Can you say something more on ruupa of wind? What's the characteristic? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > hallo Lukas, Nina and others, > > "we cling to the wind" this was one of the comments from todays discussion at the foundation. I found this quite a little treasure. > I understand it to mean that we cling to "our" kusala and we dont want akusala, but what can we do about it? > Kusala citta arises for a very brief time and is gone again, so any clinging to understanding or generosity is like clinging to the wind. L: I am attached to past kusalas. > I think that when we start to learn about kusala, akusala, kamma, citta, cetasika, rupa etc we want to understand now, but it cannot happen like that. There is only understanding when it arises and noone can make understanding arise. L: But I feel bad because, when I met Acharn teachings, I read on citta now, citta that has the characteristic of experience. And now I dont examine it. I forget. I prefer to think with pleasant feeling. Best wishes Lukas #101357 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. upasaka_howard Hi, pt - I do get your point in the following, but I disagree with it. (Why even mention the untouchables for that 1st case and not others?) With metta, Howard In a message dated 10/14/2009 9:34:28 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ptaus1@... writes: Hi Howard, It still seems to me you might be misreading the following - you quote two sentences from the passage: 1. "As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound for darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. 2. He has wrong livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the three kinds of akusala, namely, through body, speech and mind. He will be reborn in an unhappy plane." pt: If I understand correctly, you seem to equate the second sentence to the description of untouchables, and that's why it seems racist: > H: This views the low-caste people as almost subhuman, much as the Nazis viewed various groups... pt: To me it seems this second sentence has nothing to do with untouchables per se, but simply describes someone who commits bad actions and ends up in a bad destination because of it, not because of birth, caste, nationality, etc. In fact, this sentence is very similar to the description of beings who are born in light and end up in darkness (third case), except that their outward appearance is favorable (so appearance seems irrelevant to me in both cases because it is simply vipaka, just like birth in heaven or hell, rich or poor family, etc, is also just vipaka). So, I can't really see any racism in the above. I agree though that the first sentence might have been worded a little better by saying "unfavorable circumstances" instead of "untouchables" like James suggested, though I think it's hard to ascertain what context the term "untoucahble" had exactly at the time of writing and translations (a derogatory term, a synonym for poverty, etc). Best wishes pt #101358 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. ptaus1 Hi Howard, > Why even mention the untouchables for that 1st case and not others? I see your point - my guess is that simply the two most extreme and opposite cases are given so as to cover the entire range of possibilities - untouchables at one end, and khattiyas (the highest caste as it says in the paragraph) at the other end. So, rather than ascribing a particular importance to castes, I get the feeling that the commentator is simply being exhaustive. But, it's just my guess. Best wishes pt #101359 From: Ken O Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Re Q. : Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas You could read this chapter in its entirety by going to Zolag.co.uk and it will point to you to another website which you could download. What I like about this book is that it teaches the practise, and how the various practise help and supported each other, Different people have different temperaments, or I should say different inclinations. Some will have sharp intelligence but they easily fall into discursive thinking or easily distracted. Practise is based on panna. But not everyone is suitabe to use panna as the main engine due to their temperaments. Practise is also based on reflection on ones behaviour pg 81 under the same book. You have to ask yourself what are your strongest points in your inclination and what are your greatest weaknesses. For eg myself, I easily being conceited or affected by what people think about it. From there I work on it, my strongest inclination is dana, this base on my personal observation through by my own behaviour. Dana is not just material things but dana in terms of speech and actions known as abhaya dana. It acts as a limiting factor whenever I speak conceitedly, it produces mindfulness and arise panna to know this is an akusala behaviour. When danna is supported by patience and equanmity, then calm would comes naturally because they help us to see things as really they are and the reaction is evenmindness towards different situations and different people. You could use chapter III of Visud, para 74 onwards till the end of the chapter where they discuss taking up a mediation subject to suit a person temperaments. You can even take up some of the suggested practise of meditation just to calm one's mind, in the event we really felt stressed up with akusala dhamma. It is a form of "take five". I practise a short 10 counts of breathing at times of my work or trying situations, to prevent my mind from being overly distracted or whenever my panna is not strong enough to overcome the aksuala thoughts in my mind in my daily life. It helps to calm it or pull back myself. I also at times do that to calm my mind in the night in certain days where there is too much work which cause hyper-active state of my mind and made me unable to sleep. However, whatever practise, panna is fundamental, just like oxygen to our present human body. Even Buddha in his previous lifes, who attained jhanas for thousands of aeons, could also fall into defilements as long as they are not eradicated. That is why it is always stressed here, seeing is a reality, it is imperament, is painful and is not-self. Practise must be natural, must start from listening dhamma, must be to one's inclination Cheers Ken O #101360 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:23 pm Subject: Faculties, induvidials, modes of progress truth_aerator Hello all, There are 4 types of paths: pleasant with quick acquisition pleasant with slow acquisition painful with quick acquisition painful with slow acquisition Question: How does one know which one of those is most suitable? Question: How does one know if one has: keen, middle or blunt faculties? http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanip\ ata/017-patipadavaggo-e.html Thanks, With metta, Alex #101361 From: han tun Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for giving the different meanings of "uppanna" which is very useful for me. In a book by Ashin Janakabhivamsa, anusaya has no "uppaada", ".thii", "bhanga". If it has these three, it then becomes pariyu.t.thaana kilesa. Therefore, actually, anusaya has no past, present and future. However, as anusaya can condition the arising of pariyu.t.thaana kilesa, based on the results it can produce, it can be said that it has past, present and future. Sayadaw wrote this type of drawing the conclusion is called "phaluu-pacaara-pariyaaya" method of saying. In the same book, anusaya is defined similar to what you had written: "They are potential defilements in the sense of possessing a fertile soil for their arising". In the book, it says that anusaya is defilement not yet eradicated by magga ~naana and so it remains latent. However, not all ten kilesas are anusaya. Only those kilesas that are strong enough belong to anusaya. To elaborate further on this, Sayadaw wrote that out of ten kilesas, six [lobha, dosa, moha, mana, di.t.thi, vicikicchaa] can be classified as anusaya as they are strong enough, but the other four weaker kilesas [thina, uddhacca, ahirika, anottappa] are not anusayas. What would you say about the above statements? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #101362 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. kenhowardau Hi James and Howard, While some of the points raised in this discussion can best be dropped, I think others are worth pursuing. It is important to know whether the ancient commentaries vary from the original teaching. So, in this case, for example, do the commentaries use metaphors differently from the way the Buddha used them? If they do, then maybe the they also differ in other, more important, ways. (!) ---------- > > The Buddha didn't categorize and stereotype in that way. --------- I vaguely remember a reference in the texts to 'cartwrights.' If I am not mistaken it was in the suttas, not just in the commentaries. At the time it occurred to me how politically incorrect it seemed to stereotype cartwrights as wretched, untrustworthy individuals who were doomed to follow in the 'lowly' trade of their untouchable forefathers. But if it was purely by way of metaphor (for describing various conditioned dhammas) should we be so precious about it? At the other end of the scale, the suttas stereotype 'a monk' as being someone of the highest worthiness. And yet we know that some people joined the order for evil reasons, and the Buddha has explained that being a monk is ultimately not about wearing yellow robes; the only people who are worthy of the name are *any* people who practise satipatthana. It is 100% clear from the texts (both commentary and sutta) that a person can be an untouchable cartwright and a monk at the same time. The terms are being used only as metaphors and not to be taken out of context. Ken H #101363 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:09 pm Subject: Birth is Suffering! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Re-birth Reproduces Suffering ever Again! Birth in the world is an indispensable necessity for all kinds of suffering. If no being were ever again reborn in hell, the unbearable scorching pain, or other states of agony, grief or misery, then pain would have no chance! Therefore the Sage explained that birth is pain! Multifarious are the many sorts of pain, that creatures have to endure both the physical and mental... Since birth does this pain procure, birth is pain: This consequence is sure! While the hungry ghosts know pain in great variety through hunger, thirst, & hopeless fear, no other, unless actually reborn there, knows this misery! So this repeated and blind birth, the Sage indeed declared only pain to be. In empty space, where demons dwell in searing cold, black and thick gloom, their depressed despair requires rebirth there as well, just as an evil spell! The horrible torment any being feels on coming out the womb is also pain... Can there be a painful state anytime or anywhere if birth has not preceded? Indeed this Sage so great, when he explained pain, took care first to point out rebirth as pain, the condition always & unambiguously needed to suffer! Vism 501 <..> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #101364 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:34 pm Subject: Re: Faculties, induvidials, modes of progress kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello all, > > > There are 4 types of paths: > > pleasant with quick acquisition > pleasant with slow acquisition > painful with quick acquisition > painful with slow acquisition > > Question: How does one know which one of those is most suitable? > > Question: How does one know if one has: > keen, middle or blunt faculties? ------- Hello Alex, As I understand it, we are not meant to concern ourselves with such questions. Just understand how different dhammas condition other different dhammas in different ways. If we concern ourselves with "Which of those types am I?" then won't we automatically concern ourselves with all the other wrong views ("Will I be reborn? Will I not be reborn? Will I be both (etc., etc.)")? Ken H #101365 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:11 am Subject: Re: Faculties, induvidials, modes of progress truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > There are 4 types of paths: > > > > pleasant with quick acquisition > > pleasant with slow acquisition > > painful with quick acquisition > > painful with slow acquisition > > > > Question: How does one know which one of those is most suitable? > > > > Question: How does one know if one has: > > keen, middle or blunt faculties? > ------- > Hello Alex, > > As I understand it, we are not meant to concern ourselves with such questions. Just understand how different dhammas condition other different dhammas in different ways. > > If we concern ourselves with "Which of those types am I?" then won't we automatically concern ourselves with all the other wrong views ("Will I be reborn? Will I not be reborn? Will I be both (etc., etc.)")? > > Ken H > Dear KenH, and All, The above questions are very important because the wrong approach will yield unsatisfactory result. With metta, Alex #101366 From: "connie" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:46 am Subject: unpleasant vipaka nichiconn dear lukas, Dhammapada, Yamaka. 7. Contemplating pleasant things, living uncontrolled in his senses, and not knowing moderation in eating, slack, lacking in energy, him indeed Maara overcomes, as wind overcomes a weak tree. 8. Contemplating unpleasant things, living well controlled in his senses, and knowing moderation in eating, having faith, putting forth energy, him indeed Maara does not overcome, as the wind does not overcome a rocky mountain. you have a preference? smiling under cover of lobha and hidden shame? ;) don't sorrow. there has to be a recognition of what is to be feared and the forces at play in a moment of arising. where there is preference, lobha rules. we love her seduction and lies, forgiving her anything like we enjoy the backlash of the iron fist we've forgotten in the touch of her velvet glove. better the pricklings of the two guardians of the world than the fires of the warden we lay brick for, man. ignorance and anger our other two companions. mostly. but never mind, if you are still playing games, let me know how to play the abhidhamma one at dharmagames org. ;) peace, connie #101367 From: "connie" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:12 am Subject: Faculties, induvidials, modes of progress nichiconn Alex: There are 4 types of paths: pleasant with quick acquisition pleasant with slow acquisition painful with quick acquisition painful with slow acquisition Question: How does one know which one of those is most suitable? Answer: One who has attained will know which way it was & that will have been what suited the case. Question: How does one know if one has: keen, middle or blunt faculties? Answer: Start with your eyes. Which is the nearest heaven yours can see? I consider myself blind. peace, connie #101368 From: "connie" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:17 am Subject: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. nichiconn Howard: Are there no innocent victims and no perpetrators of evil? Are victims always at least in part to blame for their victimization? The raped? The tortured? The murdered? I buy NONE of this, Nina! And I reject any "commentator" who does accept it. ========= Even tho the human birth is kusala vipaka, none are innocent, but all live with 'untouchable' tendencies polluting the 'life stream'. Don't fool yourself that there is no caste system in the theatre of your mind, nor victims in non-supportive roles. Nice example of bully rhetoric, though. peace, connie ps. Good to see your head above water, James. #101369 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:29 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (58) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 7. Ruupas from different Factors Questions and comments are welcome. ------------------------------ Chapter 7 Ruupas originating from different Factors The study of ruupas produced by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition is beneficial for the understanding of our daily life. When we study the conditions for our daily experiences and bodily functions, we shall better understand that our life is only naama and ruupa. This again reminds us to be aware so that realities can be known as they are. In this human plane of existence experiences through the senses arise time and again, such as seeing and hearing, and these could not occur without the body. The sense-cognitions have as their physical places of origin their appropriate sense-bases (vatthus) and these are produced by kamma throughout our life. All other cittas have as their physical base the heart-base (hadaya-vatthu) and this kind of ruupa is produced by kamma from the first moment of life. In the planes of existence where there are naama and ruupa, citta needs a physical base, it could not arise without the body. The ruupa that is life-faculty (jívitindriya) is also produced by kamma from the first moment of life. It supports the other ruupas of the group of ruupas produced by kamma. Moreover, it is due to kamma whether we are born as a female or as a male. The ruupas that are the femininity-faculty (itthindriya.m) and the masculinity-faculty (purisindriya.m) have a great influence on our daily life. They condition our outward appearance, our behaviour, the way we walk, stand, sit or lie down, our voice, our occupation, our place and status in society. All these kinds of ruupa produced by kamma arise in groups, that always include the eight inseparable ruupas and also life-faculty. Some kinds of ruupa are produced solely by kamma, some are produced solely by citta, such as bodily intimation (kaya-vi~n~natti) and speech-intimation (vací-vi~n~natti). Some kinds of ruupa can be produced by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. The eight inseparable ruupas of solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion, colour, odour, flavour and nutrition can be produced by either one of the four factors. If kamma produces them, they always arise together with life-faculty, and in addition they can arise with other ruupas produced by kamma. Citta produces groups of the eight inseparable ruupas from the moment the bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) that succeeds the rebirth-consciousness arises. ------------------------------- with metta, Han #101370 From: "philofillet" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:25 am Subject: How to reduce anger (for Lukas) Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. philofillet Hi Lukas > Dear Nina, Han, Phil, Howard, Ken and all > How to be less involved in conflicts? How to reduce our anger? I am always trying to get away from here for a good long while because I commit so much wrong speech (which in my definition includes troll-like behaviour, making controversial statements then not responding to the responses they cause) but your sincere inquiries keep me coming back. (Along with various forms of attachment.) Lukas, I might be a kind of expert in this area. When I first came across the Dhamma, I was regularly involved in violent conflicts, mostly episodes of "road rage" that led me to scream obscenities, pound on car hoods, and so on.There were incidents of domestic violence as well, though short of outright physical violence, the throwing of dishes, the flipping of tables, and so on. I called these "regrettable incidents", and I guess they happened a couple of times a month, maybe once a week. Now, over the last 8 years, I have seen them decline to a couple a year. So far this year there have been none. (Well, there was one, back in March, I kind of slapped the back of a car that cut me off when I was cycling, and have raised my voice to my wife 4 or 5 times, all duly noted in the daily diary in which I record notes on my behaviour.) Why has this decline happened? Is it just a natural result of moving from my early 40s into my late 40s? I don't think so. I think it is because of the Dhamma. I would like to write a series of posts to you (and all of course) on this topic, it will be a way of looking where progress has happened. This will be an excercise of happiness for me, at least. I read a sutta today that of the 4 kinds of happiness available to householders who enjoy sensual pleasures, freedom from blameful conduct is the highest happiness, and I have tasted quite a bit of it, to be honest... ... which isn't to say that when there *is* a violent conflict - and I know there will be for me again - that there need to be remorseful misery. No, we know the Buddha's teaching, we know how deeply ingrained our akusala is, so when it has its way, there can be understanding and freedom from too much remorse. But on the other hand the Buddha (and, to be honest, some modern teachers who teach somewhat corrupted forms of the Dhamma) offer many ways to help overcome the tendency to lash out in anger that is terribly harmful for oneself and of course others. I will write more next week. This will be for me as much as you, maybe, Lukas. I will vow to avoid denigrating A. S when I write this series, I will try my best. In the meantime, please relax and don't be too hard on yourself. You were born human with a sensitivity to the Dhamma.There is very good kamma at work in "you", you are a good person, a very fortunate being with a great opportunity to help others. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > L. > > > > I am grieving on the akusala I feel. #101371 From: "connie" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:12 am Subject: unpleasant vipaka nichiconn dear Lukas, I was thinking how 'some say' something about lobha as the hand of the thief reaching out in the dark. She reaches blindly in her insatiable feeding, but not for us, we are her keepers. i also enjoyed this part of the story 6 on Dhp 7-8 in Buddhist Legends Book 1, pp186-7: a suitable Subject of Meditation on Material Form. << Now a certain young woman of station was attacked by a disease, and the very moment the disease attacked her, she died, at eventide, without a sign of withering or weariness. In the evening her kinsfolk and friends brought her body to the burning-ground, with firewood, oil, and other requisites, and said to the keeper of the burning-ground, "Burn this body." And paying the keeper the usual fee, they turned the body over and departed. When the keeper of the burning-ground removed the woman's dress and beheld her beautiful golden-hued body, she straightway thought to herself, "This corpse is a suitable Subject of Meditation to show his reverence." So she went to the Elder, paid obeisance to him, and said, "I have a remarkably good subject of Meditation; pray look at it, Reverend Sir." "Very well," said the Elder. So he went and caused the dress which covered the corpse to be removed, and surveyed the body from the soles of the feet to the tips of the hair. Then he said, "Throw this beautiful golden-hued body into the fire, and so soon as the tongues of fire have laid hold of it, please tell me." So saying, he went to his own place and sat down. The keeper of the burning-ground did as she was told and went and informed the Elder. The Elder came and surveyed the body. Where the flames had touched the flesh, the color of her body was like that of a mottled cow; the feet stuck out and hung down; the hands were curled back; the forehead was without skin. The Elder thought to himself, "This body, which but now caused those who looked thereon to forget the Sacred Word, has but now attained decay, has but now attained death." And going to his night-quarters, he sat down, discerning clearly Decay and Death. - Diigha ii 157 (8-9). Having recited this Stanza, Mahaa Kaala developed Spiritual Insight and attained Arahatship, together with the Supernatural Faculties. >> peace, connie #101372 From: "philofillet" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:19 am Subject: Re: unpleasant vipaka philofillet Hi again Lukas , > > Why I need to get unpleasant vipaka? That's an easy one. It's the result of deeds through body, speech and mind. I find another thing about vipaka very interesting, I call it the vipaka paradox. Pleasant vipaka, the result of good kamma, is the arising of pleasant objects through the six doors. But it is this pleasant vipaka that - if mindfulness is lacking - is most likely to fuel bad behaviour. When things are "going well" (lots of pleasant vipaka) there is relaxing and drinking it all in, greedy consumption of objects, unthining consumption, mindless consumption, and the result is either outright bad behaviour fuelled by lust (for food, for harmful sex etc) or bad behavioru that results when we lash out in an averse way to unpleasasnt vipaka, because we have become so sated, so satisfied, so drunk on pleasant vipaka consumed mindlessly. Indeed samsara is a vicious circle, no easy way out. So maybe rather than wondering about why there is unpleasant vipaka a mindful response to pleasant vipaka is the key! If there is a mindful consumption of pleasant sense objects (restraint of the senses) there will be less unpleasant vipaka somewhere down the road, either sooner or later. Anyways, talk to you later. Metta, Phil #101373 From: Ken O Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas L: How to get more samvega? pg 269 Chapter IX, Commentary of the The Lovingkindness Discourse, in the book Minor Readings and Illustrator translated Nanamoli para 10..... Eight Principal Grounds for a Sense of Urgency are either birth, ageing, sickness, death and the suffering in the fours states of deprivation, or else they are four consisting of birth, ageing, sickness and death, then the suffering in the states of deprivation as the fifth, the suffering rooted in the round during the past, the suffering rooted in the round during the future and the suffering rooted in the search of nutriment. pg 52, Chapter - The Perfection of Wisdom, The Perfections Leading to Enlightment "In his life when Bodhisatta was Yudanjaya, he was the eldest son of the King and had the rank of viceroy. He fulfilled every day maha-dana, the giving of abundance of gifts. One day he visited the royal park he saw dewdrops hanging like a string of pearls on the tree top, the grass tips, the end of the branches and on the spiders' webs. The prince enjoyed himself in the royal park and when the sun rose higher all the dewdrops that were hanging there disintergrated and disappeared, He reflected thus: "These dewdrops came into being and then disappeared. Evenso are conditioned realities, the lives of all beings; they are like the dewdrops hanging on the grass-tips" He felt a sense of urgency and became disenchanted with wordly life, so that he took leave of his parents and become a recluse" "The Bodhisatta realised the imperanence of the dewdrops and made this predominant in accumulating a sense of urgency and disenchantment; its arose one and then became a condition leading to its arising very often." IMHO - this shows the sense of urgency is accumulated slowly but surely. It is the considering of condition dhammas in our daily lifes that will accumulate the sense of urgency. It cannot be forced or done quickly, it depends on one considering of dhamma and its accumulation. I have a few epsiodes of sense of urgency but it is never strong enough to be recluse. I accept it and live on as usual, and believe that when it is time of it to becomes strong enough, it will. Who knows you may one day have it in this life. What I felt is that we should be joyous that we have kusala kamma to be borne in a fortunate time, place to learn dhamma especially Abhidhamma and to have many wise dhamma friends around like Nina, Sarah, Jon and RobK. Lets not worry what we cannot develop, lets look at what is available and helpful. Cheers Ken O #101374 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:32 am Subject: Re: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 12 akusala, 2 rooted in aversion szmicio Dear Alberto, If you planning to quote something more from patthana, please do this. Your Patthana studies, you 've shared here, is very helpful. The other thing I would bring here, there some kind of thoughts I've got on Patthana, and I know its thinking but it's still make me to belive it. I have very particular approach to Patthana. For me this is there greatest book. The most benefits I've got from listening to Dhamma is from Patthana. I belive it has a very particular strenght to condition understanding, while suttas are making are into concepts more easily. I considered Nina's Conditions book, that is based on Patthana actually, as the most helpful. You see, alberto, I am attached to my own belives. I like to be forget to this kind of thinking, I dont wwant to let it go. I prefer to stay with this pleasant thinking , then examine Dhamma in daily life. That bothers me. Sorry that I bothers you all this questions again and again. But I have doubts. best wishes Lukas #101375 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply, this passage cleared it up for me: > S: I would say that "a mind-door process can have any of the dhammaarammana as object, but it can also have any of the visaya rupas, any of the first 5 classes of arammana (experienced through the sense doors), as object as well. If the object of the mind-door process is a reality, a nama or rupa, which has just fallen away, it is a 'present' object, a sankhara nimitta of that reality or it can be said to be a reality 'by way of navattabba (not-classifiable)'. pt: A few more things I'd like to ask on this topic: 1. If a reality (dhamma) has fallen away - i.e. it's not a 'present' object - not a shankara nimitta, in that case that particular past dhamma can become an object of cittas: a) only as a nimitta of a concept - so, a pannatti? b) in the mind-door? 2. In posts on concepts, it's often said that they neither arise nor fall away, since they are not a reality, but are only experienced (like in #97787). So they do appear to "exist" for some time. Can it be said that a concept "exists" (is experienced) for the minimum duration of at least one mind-door process (10 cittas: 1 mind-door-adverting, 7 javanas and possibly 2 tadarammanas)? That is, there can't be two different concepts in the same mind-door process? 3. Concepts are brought about by sanna only? How does it happen that a certain concept all of sudden just pops into my head, without any seeming relevance to the present situation for example? Sometimes it seems it's due to a habit - like often thinking about something, which would mean that it's brought about by conditions, and yet, it is said that concepts are not conditioned. Best wishes pt #101376 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 10/14/2009 9:17:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nichicon@... writes: Howard: Are there no innocent victims and no perpetrators of evil? Are victims always at least in part to blame for their victimization? The raped? The tortured? The murdered? I buy NONE of this, Nina! And I reject any "commentator" who does accept it. ========= Even tho the human birth is kusala vipaka, none are innocent, but all live with 'untouchable' tendencies polluting the 'life stream'. ------------------------------------------ The use of 'untouchable' wasn't figurative, Connie. ------------------------------------------ Don't fool yourself that there is no caste system in the theatre of your mind, nor victims in non-supportive roles. Nice example of bully rhetoric, though. ----------------------------------------------------- Just so I understand your post, please define 'bully' for me. ---------------------------------------------------- peace, connie ps. Good to see your head above water, James. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101377 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 3:43 am Subject: Re: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 12 akusala, 2 rooted in aversion szmicio Some typos as usuall. > Dear Alberto, > If you planning to quote something more from patthana, please do this. > Your Patthana studies, you 've shared here, is very helpful. > > The other thing I would bring here, there some kind of thoughts I've got on Patthana, and I know its thinking but it's still make me to belive it. I have very particular approach to Patthana. For me this is there greatest book. The most benefits I've got from listening to Dhamma is from Patthana. I belive it has a very particular strenght to condition understanding, while suttas are making are into concepts more easily. > > I considered Nina's Conditions book, that is based on Patthana actually, as the most helpful. > > You see, alberto, I am attached to my own belives. I like to be forget to this kind of thinking, I dont wwant to let it go. I prefer to stay with this pleasant thinking , then examine Dhamma in daily life. That bothers me. L: In the last sentence there should be: "I prefer to stay with this pleasant thinking than examine Dhamma in daily life." The point is I prefer to stay with thinking, I forget to study with attention. Lukas #101378 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sex. . . rjkjp1 Dear Venerable Dhammanando Look forward to reading all thse texts once you have the time. if you could send the pali and the exact citation the pali experts at the foundation will be able to quickly look them all up and then we get get some useful feedback.. Hope your stay in Denmark goes well. with respect Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dhammanando_bhikkhu" wrote: >> 2. They ignore the discrepant prediction in the Samyutta Atthakathaa (commentary > to the Saddhammapa.tiruupaka Sutta). > > 3. They misunderstand the Digha Atthakathaa's commentary to the Sampasaadaniiya > Sutta as being relevant only to the decline of the past dispensation of Kassapa > Buddha. But the very reason for the commentary describing the decline of > pa.tivedha in Kassapa's dispensation is that the Diigha-bhaa.nakas held that > pa.tivedha in Gotama's dispensation would decline in an identical pattern (as > attested in the Anguttara and Vinaya sub-commentaries). > > 4. They neglect all of the sub-commentarial and Vinaya treatises in which these > discrepancies are addressed. These are chiefly the Saaratthadiipanii.tiikaa to > the Vinaya Pi.taka, the .tiikaa to the Anguttara Nikaaya, and two other Vinaya > treatises: the Siimavisodhanii and Vimativinodanii. > > I regret that I'm not able to give precise citations right now as I'm separated > from my library and writing from memory, but I will try to rectify this omission > when I'm back in Bangkok. > > Best wishes, > Dhammanando > #101379 From: "philofillet" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 4:23 am Subject: Re: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 12 akusala, 2 rooted in aversion philofillet Hi Lukas > The point is I prefer to stay with thinking, I forget to study with attention. I'm really hassling you, Lukas. Sorry. But this is a very important point. Acharn Sujin tells us again and again that we should (and the word "should" is often used in Nina's books) "study the present reality." But surely unless that "studying" arises without our having a sense of "should,it is just thinking with attachment. My sense is that the whole thing about "studying present realities" is thinking with attachment about studying present realities, trying to force satipatthana into our daily lives. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but my suspicion grows. So in my opinion being attached to pleasant thoughts about the Dhamma making us into better people etc and that sort of thing is honest and truthful and in line with where our understanding truly lies. You can make up your own mind, but how can you be sure the "study with attention" that you say your are forgetting to do is not just more thinking? I think it is, I'm pretty sure it is, I used to do a lot of it.That's why I have trouble with Abhidhamma now, as soon as I open my Comprehensice Manual of Abhidhamma I can feel lobha pouring out all over the pages, I cannot read about Abhidhamma without trying to suck too much out of it. I cannot keep the theory of the way great minds cognize in the book, where it belongs. I keep trying to make it my own, appropriating it. That is where I'm at now, and I could be wrong. But then again I could be right. So please reflect on what "study present realities" really involves, and you might come to the same conclusion as me, or it may be different for you because "your" cittas are more developed and there can really be "studying of present realities" rather than lots of fleeting moments of thinking with delight and subtle self-satisfaction about doing so. OK Lukas, now I am *really* out of here until my next post in the "how to remove anger" series to you, next Wednesday. Metta, Phil #101380 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Boycott by the monks sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando, --- On Wed, 14/10/09, dhammanando_bhikkhu wrote: >I'm currently on the move -- travelling around Thailand saying my goodbyes before moving to Denmark. So, being separated from my library and with only irregular internet access, I can't help with any textual references. I can only say that Ven. Thanissaro's explanation agrees with what I've heard from every other Vinaya teacher, while I.B. Horner's seems quite untenable. >That's not to say one can show Horner's reading to be in error on the basis of the text's phrasing, for in fact patta.m in the sentence "licchavissa patta.m nikkujjatu" could grammatically refer to either the monk's bowl or the layman's bowl, depending on whether one reads licchavissa as a dative ("to the Licchavii") or a genitive ("of the Licchavii"). ... S: This is all very helpful and certainly makes much better sense. I thought Horner also referred to something in the comy, but I'm also away from texts now and we have to look for the meaning which makes sense which we all agree on. We had no idea that you were moving and would like to extend our very best wishes for your stay in Denmark. Your other message was also very interesting. Like Rob and Nina, I'd like to encourage you anytime to let us know/add any refs anytime you find the sources we refer to are in error/too limited. Many thanks for this. Metta and respect Sarah ======== #101381 From: "connie" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:33 am Subject: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. nichiconn Howard: > Are there no innocent victims and no perpetrators of evil? Are victims always at least in part to blame for their victimization? The raped? The tortured? The murdered? I buy NONE of this, Nina! And I reject any "commentator" who does accept it. ========= c: since when do you not believe in kamma-vipaka, btw? >Even tho the human birth is kusala vipaka, none are innocent, but all live with 'untouchable' tendencies polluting the 'life stream'. ------------------------------------------ > The use of 'untouchable' wasn't figurative, Connie. ------------------------------------------ c: Wasn't it? No doubt, that caste existed, but don't the commentaries remind us over and over again about conventional figures of speech and what is ultimately real? Personally, I don't suppose it's any more offensive than comparing people to herds of cattle. Or junkies. When it comes to implying that people are bigots, though, you might consider how well you know the source and speak with care. Sometimes, it might seem things turn out queerly. ======== Don't fool yourself that there is no caste system in the theatre of your mind, nor victims in non-supportive roles. Nice example of bully rhetoric, though. ----------------------------------------------------- Just so I understand your post, please define 'bully' for me. ---------------------------------------------------- c: Shall we milk goats then? Never mind. Yell all you like. For all i know you believe in righteous anger. But causes are made in the present & to my mind, looking for either a victim or a perp to blame perpetuates hatred and furthers misunderstanding; dhammas are impersonal but the enemy is still ignorance. peace, connie #101382 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:54 am Subject: Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Some brief notes from the discussions on various topics relating to DSG posts <1>: 1. Suttas on the precepts and Uposotha, such as in #97190, #97185, #97162 (Ven Samahita, Jon, Mike). They understand the benefit at the time and in the future. So rather than deciding to follow precepts, it's an understanding of the value of the arahat's way of life, of the harm of killing and so on, then and there. In the sutta about taking refuge, but greater benefit if he'd undertaken the precepts (sikkhaapadaani), Velaama Sutta, AN, the taking of refuge is with limited understanding here, not that of the sotapanna. Undertaking the precepts must be with understanding, understanding the value, i.e referring to the sotapanna. It always comes down to one's own intention, samadaana sila, one's own understanding after listening to the Teachings. After understanding about the value of sila, there is the wise intention not to kill etc. The precepts are not to be done as a practice, or done as "something to start with". 2. On akasa rupa (space) - 2 kinds. Both have the same characteristic, both are akasa dhatu. last visit there was some confusion over KS's comment: "Think about it, there's nothing, completely nothing at all and then there arise the rupas, the 4 elementary rupas and the rest, see? But before tht, nothing and that is real and it's akasa." By nothing, it means, no kalapas, no conditioned rupas arise. Akasa, nothing, the unconditioned akasa. Nothing - no 'things', no kalapas. Unconditioned aksasa whenever there is nothing. On the classifications and Nina's comment #99999 about the no. of paramatha dhammas, different names, groupings, eg 6 or 7 vinnana. Mahabhuta can include everything. Just to check one's undersanding about realities. Under rupas - pariccheda. Pariccheda refers to the conditioned one, but it can just be another name for akasa. Akasa is akasa - same characteristic. Qus about fish in the sea, caves etc(Chew #100086) - too much thinking about concepts. Simply, 2 realities. Where nothing, it's the second kind of akasa. Again, both have the same characteristic. 3. All dhammas are based on avijja, inc. arupavacara cittas, but not lokuttara cittas. Avijja as decisive support condition for all these cittas. In the case of the arahat, no avijja acted as upanissaya paccaya for the lokuttara cittas, because final avijja eradicated at that instant of magga cittas. However, in the case of the sotapanna, only the avijja eradicated at that stage is not upanissaya paccaya for the lokuttara cittas. The other avijja not yet eradicated is still (pakatu) upanissaya paccaya. 4. Metta - the "beginner", Vism quote #100181. At this moment, if there's no understanding of akusala that arises, such as trying to have metta, we cannot understand the conditions for kusala. All sankhara dhammas are conditioned... Metta now, so that it accumulates and can be understood. Not later... 5. Natural decisive support condition again, as including concepts (discussion with Ann, #98047, Alberto #98386. It includes concepts, because we think of concepts. The concept is the reality we're used to thinking about, i.e.without realities, no concepts. Realities cannot be known without concepts. We think in terms of objects from moment to moment - food, climate and so on. We cannot live without them. Do we live to eat or to understand realities? When it refers to climate and food, these are the realities which make up climate and food. Concepts depicting realities in the Patthana as well. Sanna and all realities are conditioned and sanna remembers everything in concepts, such as in a language. Thinking has to think of a concept and there cannot be a concept without thinking about it. There can be wise attention to the words, because of accumulated wise attending to such concepts. 6. Ananda, Scott #100327. "he spent much of the night in contemplation of the body....." Accumulations! Contioned to think in such a way. Who can stop conditions? 7. Pariyatti, Nina & Dan #99303. Not just the texts that endure, but with understanding. Well-versed understanding. All the Teachings are for understanding. 8. Kaya and vaci-vinnatti -bodily and speech intimations, not just when conveying a meaning to others. Like now, if we use bodily movements intending a purpose, such as walking with a straight back or combing our hair in a particular style, there's kaya-vinnatti. (Thx, Rob for raising it!) ***** Time to get ready for another session.... Metta Sarah ======== #101383 From: "Staisha Perry" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:11 am Subject: Re:Re: [dsg] Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. staisha_perry [dsg]Hello friends, could you please tell me where you meet for live dhamma discussions, or if k. Sujin accepts visitors from the states. We wish everyone well being, and are curious about k. Sujins age. ------ <..> #101384 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:50 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok nilovg Dear Sarah, could there be an elaboration on this? I do not completely understand it. Nina. Op 15-okt-2009, om 7:54 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Kaya and vaci-vinnatti -bodily and speech intimations, not just > when conveying a meaning to others. Like now, if we use bodily > movements intending a purpose, such as walking with a straight back > or combing our hair in a particular style, there's kaya-vinnatti. > (Thx, Rob for raising it!) #101385 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lukas on unpleasant vipaaka. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 15-okt-2009, om 5:43 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > The point is I prefer to stay with thinking, I forget to study with > attention. ------- N: We all have such inclinations sometimes. Getting lost in Pali texts and forgetting to connect these with daily life at this moment. Then the texts are dead, but they should come to life. As Kh Sujin often says, 'it all depends on the understanding of the listener.' Ken O reminds me to take up the book of the Perfections. I thought of helpful texts for you. I hoipe you find it useful, let me know what you think. It is so real that are daily life is bound up with joy and sorrow. The Ch on the Perfection of Wisdom, p. 68: < Before paññå can become accomplished to the degree of attaining the different stages of insight knowledge, we should begin to understand that our life evolves in accordance with kamma and that there is no escape from the conditions for the arising of citta, cetasika and rúpa. We should have a firm understanding of kamma and the factors which are the conditions for life to evolve each day, bound up as it is with joy and sorrow. We are sometimes delighted and thrilled, and sometimes depressed or afraid; at times our expectations come true, at times we are disappointed, there are pleasant and unpleasant events. There are birth, old age, sickness and death. We live in ignorance, but when paññå arises in daily life, it is able to consider the characteristics of realities and to understand them as not a being, a person or self, but only realities which arise because of their own conditions. Nåma, the element which experiences, arises all the time in our life. We are so used to experiencing objects that we do not realize, when we see at this moment, that seeing is a reality which experiences, or when sound appears and we are hearing at this moment, that hearing is a reality which experiences. Satipatthåna is awareness of the dhammas which are real in our daily life, and through satipatthåna paññå can further develop to the degree of realizing the stages of insight. When the khandha of rúpa appears, sati can be mindful of it. When the khandha of consciousness appears, which experiences an object through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the bodysense or the mind- door, sati can be mindful. However, there should be awareness and understanding also of the khandhas of feeling, of remembrance (saññå) and formations (sankhårakkhandha). If there is no understanding of all five khandhas, defilements cannot be eradicated. If satipatthåna does not arise in our daily life, and paññå does not investigate the characteristic of each reality that appears, it is impossible to eliminate wrong view. When remembrance or perception arises, or when there are conditions for liking or for detesting something, for wholesome thinking or for evil thinking, paññå can realize that all these phenomena are truly not self. They are realities each with their own characteristic. > ******* Nina. #101386 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:36 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 2, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Feelings change, there is pleasant feeling at one moment, at another moment there is unpleasant feeling and at another moment again indifferent feeling. The Buddha taught that what is impermanent is suffering, in Påli dukkha. Bodily pain and mental suffering due to the changeability of things are forms of dukkha which are more obvious. The truth of dukkha, however, comprises more than that. The truth of dukkha pertains to all physical phenomena and mental states which are impermanent. They are unsatisfactory because, after they have arisen, they are there merely for an extremely short moment and then they disappear completely. The truth of dukkha is deep and difficult to understand. We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahå-vagga, Book XII, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Chapter 2, §1) that the Buddha, after his enlightenment, when he was staying in the Deerpark at Isipatana, near Vårånasi, preached to a group of five monks. He explained to them the four noble Truths: the Truth of dukkha, the Truth of the origin of dukkha, the Truth of the ceasing of dukkha, which is nibbåna, and the Truth of the Path leading to the ceasing of dukkha. We read with regard to dukkha: Birth is dukkha, decay is dukkha, sickness is dukkha, death is dukkha; likewise sorrow and grief, woe, lamentation and despair. To be conjoined with what we dislike; to be separated from what we like,— that also is dukkha. Not to get what one wants,—that also is dukkha. In short, these five groups of grasping are dukkha. The five groups (in Påli khandhas) of grasping are all physical phenomena and mental phenomena of our life which have been classified as five groups. They are: the group of physical phenomena, and four groups of mental phenomena comprising: the group of feelings, of perceptions, of mental activities (including all wholesome and unwholesome qualities) and of consciousness. These five groups comprise all phenomena of life which arise because of their own conditions and then fall away. Seeing is dukkha, because it arises and falls away. Colour is dukkha, pleasant feeling is dukkha, even wholesome mental states are dukkha, they all are impermanent. ******* Nina. #101387 From: "sprlrt" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:59 am Subject: Re: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 12 akusala, 2 rooted in aversion sprlrt Dear Lukas, ... > You see, alberto, I am attached to my own belives. I like to be forget to this kind of thinking, I dont wwant to let it go. I prefer to stay with this pleasant thinking , then examine Dhamma in daily life. That bothers me. L: In the last sentence there should be: "I prefer to stay with this pleasant thinking than examine Dhamma in daily life." Who doesn't? :-) Vedana works a bit in a stick and carrot fashion, and we are addicted to both, somehow, there is nothing one can do about that, but understanding, by conditions such as hearing and considering properly the Dhamma, one's own accumulations just as that, as dhammas, realities not under the control of selves, which are concepts and not realities. > The point is I prefer to stay with thinking, I forget to study with attention. I don't think that the Dhamma can ever be like the homework one's assigned do to in order to pass a test. Nor that is of much use trying to force anyone, inclunding onself, on anything, especially the Dhamma. And that pañña can only develop naturally, by conditions such as hearing and considering properly the Dhamma, and that the harder one tries to get it (also kusala in general), the farther it moves. I think of kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya as just one of the many ways of classifiying sankhara dhammas, realities that are all anatta, anicca and dukkha; all paritta dhammas, small things, not worth clinging to. Alberto #101388 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:15 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok rjkjp1 Dear Nina I gave one case to Khun Sujin: when I swim, which is a fairly technical pursuit as I train to get faster, most of the time I am focussed on the stoke and how to get the exact movement and postion. As I undertsand it Khun sujin said there would be kayavinnati at this time due to my 'self intimation', even if I am the only one in the pool or nearby. But sometimes I am daydreaming while swimming, not thinking of the body position at all- then there would be no kayavinnati.. Anyway I think she agreed with that.. with respect Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > could there be an elaboration on this? I do not completely understand > it. > Nina. > Op 15-okt-2009, om 7:54 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > Kaya and vaci-vinnatti -bodily and speech intimations, not just > > when conveying a meaning to others. Like now, if we use bodily > > movements intending a purpose, such as walking with a straight back > > or combing our hair in a particular style, there's kaya-vinnatti. > > (Thx, Rob for raising it!) > > #101389 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:52 am Subject: Re: Re Q. : Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. szmicio Dear Ken, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. And also your inclinations. I feel your support guys, thanks. I will read visudhi. My inclination is that i am very agitated and i will a lot of dosa and ditthi. It's nice that you shared your inclinations. best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Lukas > > You could read this chapter in its entirety by going to Zolag.co.uk and it will point to you to another website which you could download. What I like about this book is that it teaches the practise, and how the various practise help and supported each other, > #101390 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:56 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok nilovg Dear Robert (and Han), Op 15-okt-2009, om 10:15 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > I gave one case to Khun Sujin: when I swim, which is a fairly > technical pursuit as I train to get faster, most of the time I am > focussed on the stoke and how to get the exact movement and > postion. As I undertsand it Khun sujin said there would be > kayavinnati at this time due to my 'self intimation', even if I am > the only one in the pool or nearby. But sometimes I am daydreaming > while swimming, not thinking of the body position at all- then > there would be no kayavinnati.. > Anyway I think she agreed with that.. ------ N: Very good example, thanks a lot. it also depends on the citta, displaying an intention. An example given in a commentary was also about reciting, even for oneself. Thus, to display an intention, other people need not be always present. Say, I straighten my back because I do not like to look old, but I am inclined to forget about my back and then I look old. Han, I have confidence in whatever you cite from a Sayadaw in your books. I find it very good and faithful to the texts. Could you cite something about kaayavi~n~natti? Nina. #101391 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. nilovg Dear Lukas and Ken O (also Ken H), You know, all Lukas' complaints about lack of a sense of urgency, doubts, dosa, impatience, are the opportunity for others to write reminders we can all use. it is alovely opportunity and I do appreciate the reminders of all who wrote to Lukas. I like to go into Ken O's remarks. Op 15-okt-2009, om 5:26 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > IMHO - this shows the sense of urgency is accumulated slowly but > surely. It is the considering of condition dhammas in our daily > lifes that will accumulate the sense of urgency. It cannot be > forced or done quickly, it depends on one considering of dhamma and > its accumulation. ------- N:It is right understanding that conditions a sense of urgency we can also call right effort. -------- > I have a few epsiodes of sense of urgency but it is never strong > enough to be recluse. I accept it and live on as usual, and > believe that when it is time of it to becomes strong enough, it > will. Who knows you may one day have it in this life. What I > felt is that we should be joyous that we have kusala kamma to be > borne in a fortunate time, place to learn dhamma especially > Abhidhamma and to have many wise dhamma friends around like Nina, > Sarah, Jon and RobK. Lets not worry what we cannot develop, lets > look at what is available and helpful. ------ N: No worry about what is beyond our capacities, just the present moment. We should not wish for too much, like eradication of lobha and dosa. That is impossible. Nina. p.s. Ken H: Our diary about the present moment stopped short, it is your turn, but no need to force it. #101392 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:33 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 3. nilovg Dear Han, Op 15-okt-2009, om 0:09 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > However, not all ten kilesas are anusaya. Only those kilesas that > are strong enough belong to anusaya. To elaborate further on this, > Sayadaw wrote that out of ten kilesas, six [lobha, dosa, moha, > mana, di.t.thi, vicikicchaa] can be classified as anusaya as they > are strong enough, but the other four weaker kilesas [thina, > uddhacca, ahirika, anottappa] are not anusayas. > > What would you say about the above statements? ---------- N: Sayadaw Ashin Janakabhivamsa is very good and I hope you will quote more from him. He is very faithful to the texts and gives good explanations. The latent tendencies condition also other kilesas to arise with the akusala citta. Thina, uddhacca, ahirika, anottappa arise anyway with each akusala citta. Nina. #101393 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:25 am Subject: Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. scottduncan2 Dear connie and Howard, Regarding: Howard: "Are there no innocent victims and no perpetrators of evil? Are victims always at least in part to blame for their victimization? The raped? The tortured? The murdered? I buy NONE of this, Nina! And I reject any 'commentator who does accept it." c: "...No doubt, that caste existed, but don't the commentaries remind us over and over again about conventional figures of speech and what is ultimately real? Personally, I don't suppose it's any more offensive than comparing people to herds of cattle. Or junkies..." Scott: From the Suttaanipata, 142: "Birth makes not a man an outcast, Birth makes not a man a brahmin; Action makes a man an outcast, Action makes a man a brahmin." Na jaccaa vasalo hoti, na jaccaa hoti braahma.no; Kammunaa vasalo hoti, kammunaa hoti braahma.no 'ti. Sincerely, Scott. (Sutta-nipâta, 142) #101394 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:38 am Subject: How to reduce anger (for Lukas) Re: Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 2. szmicio Dear Phil thank you for your post. As you see I have difficulties. You, Han, Howard, you are both very developed in right livelyhood and siila. I admire you for that. But I dont think so I can develop good siila. Actually my daily lifes experiences say me that it's not like having siila when you try to get more. But as Han said, that my approche can be wrong. I am open to hear everything. I am not against anything. But in my life I've tried to have siila a lot. And it seems it doesnt work for me. Also I read untill now 2 A.S posts answering my questines and she build me up a bit. I again think of right understanding. Maybe I should put off all daily life matters and try to seclude myself, like you do? But I think it would be very hard to me. Maybe you can support me? It would be very hard to me to seclude. Best wishes Lukas > I am always trying to get away from here for a good long while because I commit so much wrong speech (which in my definition includes troll-like behaviour, making controversial statements then not responding to the responses they cause) but your sincere inquiries keep me coming back. (Along with various forms of attachment.) > > Lukas, I might be a kind of expert in this area. When I first came across the Dhamma, I was regularly involved in violent conflicts, mostly episodes of "road rage" that led me to scream obscenities, pound on car hoods, and so on.There were incidents of domestic violence as well, though short of outright physical violence, the throwing of dishes, the flipping of tables, and so on. I called these "regrettable incidents", and I guess they happened a couple of times a month, maybe once a week. Now, over the last 8 years, I have seen them decline to a couple a year. So far this year there have been none. (Well, there was one, back in March, I kind of slapped the back of a car that cut me off when I was cycling, and have raised my voice to my wife 4 or 5 times, all duly noted in the daily diary in which I record notes on my behaviour.) Why has this decline happened? Is it just a natural result of moving from my early 40s into my late 40s? I don't think so. I think it is because of the Dhamma. L: I also had/have a lot of confilcts in my life. > I would like to write a series of posts to you (and all of course) on this topic, it will be a way of looking where progress has happened. This will be an excercise of happiness for me, at least. I read a sutta today that of the 4 kinds of happiness available to householders who enjoy sensual pleasures, freedom from blameful conduct is the highest happiness, and I have tasted quite a bit of it, to be honest... > > ... which isn't to say that when there *is* a violent conflict - and I know there will be for me again - that there need to be remorseful misery. No, we know the Buddha's teaching, we know how deeply ingrained our akusala is, so when it has its way, there can be understanding and freedom from too much remorse. But on the other hand the Buddha (and, to be honest, some modern teachers who teach somewhat corrupted forms of the Dhamma) offer many ways to help overcome the tendency to lash out in anger that is terribly harmful for oneself and of course others. > > I will write more next week. This will be for me as much as you, maybe, Lukas. I will vow to avoid denigrating A. S when I write this series, I will try my best. > > In the meantime, please relax and don't be too hard on yourself. You were born human with a sensitivity to the Dhamma.There is very good kamma at work in "you", you are a good person, a very fortunate being with a great opportunity to help others. #101395 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:23 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: Han, I have confidence in whatever you cite from a Sayadaw in your books. I find it very good and faithful to the texts. Could you cite something about kaayavi~n~natti? Han: My command of English is not good enough to translate Burmese into English. So I will just say how I understand the subject instead of word for word translation. Suppose the teacher moves his hand signaling the student to come to him, the student immediately knows that the teacher wants him to come by kaayavi~n~natti of the teacher. Now, what actually makes the student know that? Is it due to (1) citta of the teacher, or (2) cittaja-ruupa of the teacher, or (3) just the movement of the hand of the teacher, or (4) special suggestion or intimation by the teacher? [This last one is difficult to translate.] (1) If it were due to citta alone, if the teacher remains quietly and motionless, the teacher may have any amount of citta that wills the student to come, but the student will not know. (2) If it were due to cittaja-ruupas alone, if the teacher remains quietly and motionless, there may be millions or trillions of cittaja-ruupas that arise and fall away in the teacher, but the student will not know. (3) If it were due to just the movements of the hand, if the teacher were asleep and moves his hand during his sleep, the student will not know. (4) There are vaayo dhaatu in the cittaja-ruupas of the moving hand that signals the student, and that vaayo dhaatu makes the special suggestion or intimation that makes the student know that the teacher wants him to come. That special quality of vaayo dhaatu in the cittaja-ruupa of the signalling hand is what constitutes kaayavi~n~natti. Here, Sayadaw asks the reader to refer to Atthasaali.nii for more details. Respectfully, Han #101396 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 12 akusala, 2 rooted in ave... upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas - In a message dated 10/14/2009 11:44:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: L: In the last sentence there should be: "I prefer to stay with this pleasant thinking than examine Dhamma in daily life." The point is I prefer to stay with thinking, I forget to study with attention. ============================== IMO, there is useful thinking and not-so-useful thinking.The mind, however, is typically driven by desire, and it isn't easy to stick mainly with what we know is useful. We are all in this same desire-propelled boat. What I would emphasize, though, is to not get LOST in thought (or in emotion), whether relatively wholesome or unwholesome, but to do our best to keep attention present to what is actual current experience (including our thinking, feeling, and emotions), not avoiding seeing it clearly (and calmly - as possible) for what it is. Such mindful attention can *itself* become both pleasant and interesting, and it can enable glimpses of the impermanent, unsatisfactory, impersonal and selfless nature of phenomena, and the variety of interrelationships among phenomena, which is all fascinating and confirms first-hand the Buddhadhamma. This can become an adventure of discovery. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101397 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with K.Sujin in Bangkok sarahprocter... Dear Friends, (*Lukas) Some brief notes from the discussions on various topics relating to DSG posts <2>: 1. Jhana and anusaya, discussion between Howard & Jon #100692. We cannot even say that jhanas weaken the tendency for the hindrances to arise or accumulate even in that lifetime. A temporary suppression at the moments of jhana only. We cannot say that all kinds of kusala weaken the anusaya at all. Only at moments of enlighenment. 2. Monks' overturning of the bowls. Han & Ven Dh., the Thai text also has the same as the Burmese. Clearly, Horner's is a mis-translation in this regard. Only mention of over-turning to particular individuals, however. 3. Actor Sutta and pt's Qus. Kusala and akusala common to anyone,any case,any situation. If it is akusala kamma, no matter who performs it. What about the absolute reality - kusala kamma or akusala kamma? Is the absolute reality 'doctor', 'actor', or 'cook'? Anyone can go to hell, it all depends on the kamma patha. Akusala accumualtions, such as intoxication and negligence in any life-style, lead to such kamma-patha. It all depends on cetana.Does it lead to more and more akusala? 4. Sabhava and asabhava dhammas that are known. Sabhava dhammas have to be known before asabhava dhammas. At the third stage of insight, asabhava dhammas,such as the akasa can be known, all depending on accumulations. So, is the 3rd stage of insight advanced or not? 5. Did Devadatta develop pariyatti before causing the schism (Ken H #100426)? Who knows? Who cares? 6. Viveka, in particular kaya-viveka. Any viveka refers to the citta, the mental seclusion, i.e. seclusion from defilements. Citta viveka is a higher degree than kaya viveka. It's the mental state that matters, not the physical seclusion. Samatha at any moment of kusala, so all kusala includes samatha. Viveka to be developed by understanding more about the kusala and akusala now. If not kusala, cannot be viveka. When we hear 'kaya-', we think about place, but the place is not relevant for anyone who doesn't have kaya viveka. The example of Meghiya, the Buddha's attendant, was discussed. (See 'U.P.' under 'seclusion' and 'Meghiya'). Instead of thinking about a place, such as the forest with no understanding, there must be wholesome cittas now. All the Teachings are about understanding. Kaya viveka refers to normal life, not to those who are alone without understanding - this has nothing to do with kaya viveka. Those with understanding who have accumulations to be alone - this is kaya viveka. So, bodily seclusion depends on panna. If there is little panna and we go to the forest, it's just 'wanting'. If there is more panna, for some it is their nature to live alone - some...They can live alone with the right understanding of realities. The case of Upali was also mentioned. The Buddha said there was more benefit if he didn't go to the forest but helped others and I believe he was an arahat. Actually, there are two meanings of kaya viveka: a) referring to those who already lived alone, who developed understanding, and b) in the higher sense, the detachment from sense objects anywhere at all. This is the ultimate meaning. Develop right understanding to see that there is no one at all. It's all about panna, not the place. Panna, aloof from sense objects. Before the Buddha's time, people used the phrase and thought there was benefit to living alone. So the Buddha used the same phrase and stressed the importance of understanding realities and detachment from sense objects anytime, any place, in order to help them see their wrong views. So is there kaya viveka now? First we need to understand what kusala is, such as samatha or calm which arises with all kusala. ##99135 From the Anapanasati sutta: ".....a bhikkhu develops the mindfulness of enlightenment factor dependent on seclusion...." Living alone with realities now, regardless of the accumulations. The Vinaya example was mentioned - for the bhikkhus, not looking ahead. Can one help looking ahead? Not doing so is with understanding only. Do you pay attention to nimitta anupyanjana now? Also on 'posture dependency' discussions such as #100009 (Rob K & Jon), anapanasati - Don't go to sit-cross-legged or into the forest to have calm. Naturally, by conditions....the Budda is telling the Truth. (More on sappaya sampajanna etc, tomorrow). Phil's quote from the Dhp commentary #99015: "Let him develop disengagement such as physical disengagement.Here physical disengagement is solitude physically." This refers to detachment from sensuous objects. Sensous objects are "physical", such as visible object, sound and so on. "Physical disengagement dispels attachment to company.." with understanding. Detachment from sensuous objects and having more panna, no matter where. Later, referring to different stages of understanding, beginning with the detachment from sensuous objects at any moment of kusala, any moment of calm now. [See Nyant dict #98081 (Howard): "according to Niddesa.... 1) Bodily detachment (kaya-viveka), i.e abiding in solitutde free from alluring sensuous objects........the words 'detached from sensuous things' (vivicc'eva kaamehi) refer, accord. to Vism IV, to 'bodily detachment'). S: from the dict. and Vism: vivicc'eva kaamehi: aloof from sense desire, from sense objects, aloof from bad states. Lots more at Vism IV 83. Also Vibhanga 564 (PTS p 334) on 'Aloof from sense pleasures', clearly referring to being aloof to sense objects and bad states etc, beginning with chano kaamo, raago kaamo etc.] May we all learn to live alone, detached from sensous objects.... ***** Metta Sarah *p.s Lukas, more of your Qus tomorrow perhaps. When I mentioned your reply to KS about not being in a mood to study or listen and the dosa, instead playing computer games etc, her response was similar to the one I gave about understanding any conditioned dhamma appearing now....no rules. As I mentioned before, she likes to watch cartoons or just have fun with here sisters sometimes.... we never know about our accumulations from moment to moment. I once mentioned to Phil that for a period when I was working long hours, I seldom picked up a text, but always felt confident that the practice was about the study and understanding of seeing, visible object and other realities, even when tired, depressed or being frivolous. Thanks for encouraging so many friends to write such wonderful Dhamma reminders and quotes for us all to share. ======== #101398 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:25 pm Subject: Re: To Sarah. On Khun Sujin meeting - qust. gazita2002 hallo Lukas, 'cling to the wind' means clinging to something that is impossible to hold on to. Forget about rupa element for the moment, and imagine what the wind is like, very hard to catch, no? Well, this is likening our clinging to things, to something that has gone already. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Azita, > Thanks for "we cling to the wind". > > What's the wind? the ruupa of wind can be experience by bodyconsciousness. In daily life I am involved in daily life problems and dont think on wind element. i think of people and things. > Can you say something more on ruupa of wind? What's the characteristic? > > > hallo Lukas, Nina and others, > > > > "we cling to the wind" this was one of the comments from todays discussion at the foundation. I found this quite a little treasure. > > I understand it to mean that we cling to "our" kusala and we dont want akusala, but what can we do about it? > > Kusala citta arises for a very brief time and is gone again, so any clinging to understanding or generosity is like clinging to the wind. > > L: I am attached to past kusalas. > > > I think that when we start to learn about kusala, akusala, kamma, citta, cetasika, rupa etc we want to understand now, but it cannot happen like that. There is only understanding when it arises and noone can make understanding arise. > > L: But I feel bad because, when I met Acharn teachings, I read on citta now, citta that has the characteristic of experience. And now I dont examine it. I forget. I prefer to think with pleasant feeling. > azita: stop giving yourself such a hard time, Lukas. Bad feeling is just bad feeling, not a person. We cant help having bad feeling, just like we cant help preferring pleasant feeling. This is reality. This is life. However, these realities can be known, but only when wisdom has developed to a degree to know. we cant make wisdom arise, this is the wrong way. But slowly, slowly by listening, considering what is heard, and you know what - sometimes we dont want to listen or consider - thats real too. Sometimes I just prefer to go to the movies! :-0 Relax, and be kind to yourself [a concept] bad feeling is just bad feeling, good feeling is good feeling, cant help having nama and rupa. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #101399 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:42 pm Subject: Re: Q. Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, suttas 48, 49), and commentary, part 2. gazita2002 hallo Scott and others, I like what you have written here, Scott. I found another in my little book of scribblings: A person may plunder as he will. when others plunder in return, He, plundered, plunders them again. The fool believes he is in luck as long as evil does not ripen; But when it does the fool fares ill. The slayer gets himself a slayer, The victor finds a conqueror, The abuser gets himself abused, The persecutor persecuted. The wheels of deeds turns round again, and makes the plundered plunderers. S.N. 3:14-15 metta, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > Dear connie and Howard, > > Regarding: > > Howard: "Are there no innocent victims and no perpetrators of evil? Are victims always at least in part to blame for their victimization? The raped? The tortured? The murdered? I buy NONE of this, Nina! And I reject any 'commentator who does accept it." > > c: "...No doubt, that caste existed, but don't the commentaries remind us over and over again about conventional figures of speech and what is ultimately real? Personally, I don't suppose it's any more offensive than comparing people to herds of cattle. Or junkies..." > > Scott: From the Suttaanipata, 142: > > "Birth makes not a man an outcast, > Birth makes not a man a brahmin; > Action makes a man an outcast, > Action makes a man a brahmin." > > Na jaccaa vasalo hoti, na jaccaa hoti braahma.no; > Kammunaa vasalo hoti, kammunaa hoti braahma.no 'ti. > > Sincerely, > > Scott.