#101800 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tadaarammana. was: More questions about nimitta nilovg Dear Sarah and pt, just an extra on tadaaramma.nacitta. Op 31-okt-2009, om 13:53 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > pt:Vipaka can only occur through the 5 sense-doors, it can't appear > through the mind-door, right? > ... > S: Yes, the following are the vipaka cittas in the sense-door > processes: > - sampaticchana citta (receiving consciousness), santiirana citta > (investigating consciousness), the 7 javana cittas and the > tadaarammana cittas (registering consciousness) when they arise. ------ N: When the tadaaramma.na cittas arise in a sense-door process they can also arise in the following mind-door process. They are then vipaakacittas arising in a mind-door process. It can experience an object through six doors. Nina. #101801 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tadaarammana. was: More questions about nimitta kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and pt, > just an extra on tadaaramma.nacitta. > Op 31-okt-2009, om 13:53 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > > > pt:Vipaka can only occur through the 5 sense-doors, it can't appear > > through the mind-door, right? > > ... > > S: Yes, the following are the vipaka cittas in the sense-door > > processes: > > - sampaticchana citta (receiving consciousness), santiirana citta > > (investigating consciousness), the 7 javana cittas and the > > tadaarammana cittas (registering consciousness) when they arise. > ------ > N: When the tadaaramma.na cittas arise in a sense-door process they > can also arise in the following mind-door process. They are then > vipaakacittas arising in a mind-door process. It can experience an > object through six doors. > Nina. > Hi Sarah (Nina and PT), There is a typo here, isn't there? (Either that or I am not reading it correctly.) The javana cittas are kamma, not vipaka. Ken H #101802 From: Herman Date: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. egberdina Hi freawaru, 2009/10/31 freawaru80 > > > > > > > > > > > > N: Sarah explained about observing. Citta experiences an object. We > > > > can also say: it cognizes an object. You use the term observing, but > > > > it is still citta cognizing an object, no matter what word you > prefer. > > > > ------- > > > > > > Hmm. but what is that called that observes citta cognizing an object? > > > > > > > > A very useful question to ask. If we conceive of such a "that", then we > have > > arrived at either annihilationism or eternalism. > > I do not understand this conclusion of yours. What has observing citta to > do with eternalism or annihilationism? > What is being tossed around is that it is a citta that arises and ceases. That is no different to say, a being arising and ceasing, or a person, or a soul, is it? That is just annihilationism. Others do conceive of some eternal type of consciousness as a something that knows, and that is nothing short of eternalism. Thoughts of the arising and ceasing of discrete entities are not in line with DO (or anicca for that matter). > > Otherwise, I agree with you on the necessity to verify the theory of > Abhidhamma by own experience :-) > > > Excellent :-) Cheers Herman #101803 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] tadaarammana. was: More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Dear Ken H, Nina & pt, --- On Sun, 1/11/09, kenhowardau wrote: > > S: Yes, the following are the vipaka cittas in the sense-door > > processes: > > - sampaticchana citta (receiving consciousness) , santiirana citta > > (investigating consciousness) , the 7 javana cittas and the > > tadaarammana cittas (registering consciousness) when they arise. > ------ > N: When the tadaaramma.na cittas arise in a sense-door process they > can also arise in the following mind-door process. They are then > vipaakacittas arising in a mind-door process. It can experience an > object through six doors. > Nina. > >Hi Sarah (Nina and PT), There is a typo here, isn't there? (Either that or I am not reading it correctly.) The javana cittas are kamma, not vipaka. ... S: yes, that was a big one thanks, Ken! I have no idea how the javanas slipped in there. Definitely not vipaka. I think I was just runnind through the cittas in my head. I should stick to my usual day-time posting:-) And yes, I was hesitating about mentioning the tadaaramma.nas in the succeeding mind-door process. As Nina says, the tadaaramma.nas can experience an object through all door-ways. If they arise in the sense-door process they can also arise in the succeeding mind-door process. We had long discussions about the detail of this before (lots in CMA). If an unpleasant object is experienced, all the vipaka cittas inc. the tadaaramma.nas (if they arise) of the sense-door process are akusala vipaka and so are the tadaaramma.nas then of the succeeding mind-door process and vice-versa. (see ADL ch 15). Sarah ====== #101804 From: "colette" Date: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. ksheri3 Good Morning freawaru80, <...> --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "freawaru80" wrote: <...>------------------------ Vipassana - to me - means insight, an ability to see one's own mind as if it was a computer program. > > colette: okay, I can accept that. It's a very elementary form of the definition however it suffices to vindicate the presence of VIPISSANA. I can accept that definition. -------------------- > > > > colette: so which is it: did vipassana create yoga nidra or did yoga nidra create vipassana? > > I think vipassana is the skill, the ability, the power to experience yoga nidra (yogic sleep). colette: from that definition you have place Vipissana as a resultant phenomena only from YOGA NIDRA. I THINK NOT! VIPISSANA IS MUCH MORE THAN A PETTY LITTLE RESULTANT PHENOMENA FROM YOGA NIDRA. Vipissana exists WITHOUT YOGA NIDRA. It may just be possible for a student of THERAVADAN BUDDHISM to achieve Vipissana WITHOUT the practice of YOGA NIDRA and therefore gie the student the imputus to deny the MAHAYANA or any other practice of Bhuddhism simply because they have not ventured outside the castle walls that the "STATUS QUO" uses to imprison the people and to milk them of their money <...> ------------------- Here I am using the definition of yoga nidra as lucid deep sleep like described on this site (if you use a different definition please tell me): > > "Yoga Nidra means Yogic Sleep. It is a state of conscious Deep Sleep. In Meditation, you remain in the Waking state of consciousness, and gently focus the mind, while allowing thought patterns, emotions, sensations, and images to arise and go on. However, in Yoga Nidra, you leave the Waking state, go past the Dreaming state, and go to Deep Sleep, yet remain awake. > http://www.swamij.com/yoga-nidra.htm#not > " <...> > >Throughout your application you made it clear that VIPASSANA was the >state of consciousness to OBJECTIFY to use as a GOAL and therefore I >naturally saught to find out what gets the practitioner this prize, >this reward, of Vipassana. > > As far as I know traditionally the first step is to practice concentration. We find this both in Theravadan schools as well as in Tibetan schools. > colette: crimeny, now you raise the falsehood of THE CONTEMPLATOR and THE MEDITATOR. What is it? <...> Okay, your problem is that you cannot have Vipissana right now at your fingertips as if it were in a bottle or a can that you have on your shelf. Vipissan is a reality. Watch this, Vipissana is a psuedo-reality. Pick your poison sonny or is that Sony? Is Vipissana REALITY or is it PSUEDO-REALITY? ------------------------------ > >I chose to apply Yoga Nidra which is also a state of consciousness >as vipassana is a state of consciousness. If I can achieve >vipassana without the coarse, without the path, without the >prerequisites and costly slavery that you may choose to advertise, > > What cost do you refer to? > colette: now we're gettin somewhere. So, you really do admit that you're gonna pay for something that you want. You admit that a cost exists! LETS PLAY! ----------------------------------- <...> GOTTA GO. toodles, colette <...> #101805 From: Herman Date: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta egberdina Hi KenO, 2009/10/31 Ken O > Dear Herman > > H: Subject/object dualism is the belief that objects happen to subjects, or > that subjects do things to objects. But just like it says in the Vis, 'mere > suffering exists, no sufferer is found; the deed is, but no doer of the > deed > is there.' There is not a subject to which the object is happening. Blue > doesn't happen to consciousness, there is just blue. No consciousness is > found. > > K: If there is no consciousness, how do we known it is blue? Then blue > colour we see in the sky, should also be human because no consciouness is > found. So the object should be within us, then why we cannot get the sky > out of our mind, why is there an external blue? If it is inside, where is > it then? > It is very good to hear from you again! I would like to just clarify a few things up front. Firstly, blue is experience, the word "blue" describes something that happens. It is an event that we are all familiar with, and it is not something we had to learn how to do. Blue happens. Asking how does blue occur is fine, of course, but that takes us away from an experience of blue and into thinking about blue. And in the thinking lies the answer to your question. What people here are saying to solve the very real and interesting problem you raise is, they come up with something called consciousness. They say consciousness knows blue. But when one goes looking for consciousness, it turns out that it was just an arbitrary way to deal with a problem, that does nothing more than create another, though more subtle, problem. You arrive at this new problem yourself when you make the distinction between external and internal, you conceive of "us" or "our mind" in here, and blue out there. And in so doing, you have made consciousness equal to yourself. You know blue. But as the Buddha discovered, conceiving of yourself causes a lot of problems. But happily, as he also found, when you go looking for yourself, you are not to be found. All you, or consciousness ever were was an incorrect thought. Cheers Herman #101806 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Ken) - Herman, I don't know whether you realize it - in fact you may outright deny it, but the basis for what you are asserting here is, IMO at least, a phenomenalism/empiricism that conceives of every rupa as experience, and every nama as a mode of existence (e.g., as merely present, as pleasant, as murky, as loved, etc). Blue, to you, is an experience and not something that can exist "in itself" as an unseen or a waiting-to-be-seen. The same, I presume for you, is the case for sounds, tastes, bodily sensations, and so on. There are no unseen sights (somewhere or other), no unheard sounds, no untasted tastes, and no unfelt sensations. Where could such fictions be? The flow of phenomena is exactly the experiential flow. Whatever arises at all arises as experience. And consciousness of an experience is nothing more or less than the mere presence of that experience. With metta, Howard Emptiness of Consciousness /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) #101807 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:52 pm Subject: Superhuman Delight! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Tranquillity is the way to Superhuman Delight! Tranquillity comes due to insight. As he is sitting, whether by night or by day, then he experiences neither fatigue, heaviness, rigidity, slowness, nor sickness in his body, nor in his mind, but rather his body and mind are tranquil, very light, adaptable, pliable, quite sharp and ultra-clear! With his body and mind aided by such tranquillity, he experiences a superhuman delight, about which it is said: A Bhikkhu with his mind all quiet... Retired to a remote & empty place. There right insight in the Dhamma, Awards him a superhuman delight! It is because he really comprehends The rise and fall of all phenomena That he relishes this high happiness: A silent joy not of this world! A bliss transcending the human! And knows it to be the deathless... Dhammapada 373-74 <...> Have a nice tranquil day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #101808 From: Herman Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 5:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta egberdina Hello Sarah, 2009/10/30 sarah abbott > Hi Herman, > > > S: What is "this entire mass of suffering... " if not cittas, cetasikas > and rupas? > > What is D.O. if not cittas, cetasikas and rupas? > .... > H:> Just as a clarification, are you suggesting or implying that there are > such things as an individual citta, an individual cetasika, an individual > rupa? Or do you mean them only as categories of analysis, ways of thinking > about things? > ... > S: At this moment is there seeing? Or hearing? Or thinking, regardless of > any analysis of thinking about them? > > Seeing, hearing, thinking occur in a loose manner of speaking, but if we want to be precise then there is always only the seen object, there is never just seeing. There is no objectless seeing. Likewise there is no soundless hearing, nor is there unheard sound. Nor is there thinking without a thought, let alone an unthought thought. What is there, ever, is the object. Knowing isn't known. And by object I do not mean an object that meets the criterion of being a paramattha dhamma. I am talking anicca, or the real world, not a theory of it :-) > Is there attachment or annoyance or pleasant feeling, regardless of any > analysis? > > Is there ignorance? This is the first link of D.O. It's not a category or > analysis, it's the reality which may be arising now. If there's not-knowing > about seeing or hearing or thinking or attachment, there's ignorance for > sure. > If an object, as in a static momentary separate arising and ceasing is discerned, that is when ignorance is present. Because that is when there is a deluded grasping at what is by nature not static nor separate, what has by nature neither beginning or end. In other words there is ignorance when there is discernment of what isn't there. Cheers Herman #101809 From: Herman Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. egberdina Hi Freawaru, 2009/10/31 freawaru80 > > > Hello Nina, Howard and All, > > it seems to me that "seeing" in Abhidhamma refers to the "lower" processes > of the brain, those in the evolutional old part (reptile brain, etc). These > are generally unconscious and not accessible by the higher functions of the > brain, including our personality. In this sense a dog's seeing and a human's > seeing are identical because we share this part of our brain genetically. > These processes are very fast and impersonal, again a reason to assume that > Abhidhamma refers to them. "Just seeing" is not a function our personality > is able to comprehend or consider, as it has no access to these lower > functions. > > The probem for me is now, if this is true the teaching of Abhidhamma is way > beyond most. I am sure it is possible to access the functions of those parts > of the brain, too, (though not with the personality) but it is even more > difficult than accessing the functions of our inner organs such as heart or > liver or digestion system (which can be accessed by the personality). To put > it bluntly, so far I see no reason to assume that someone who is not aware > of his inner organs could be able to understand nama-rupa as in Abhidhamma. > It would be like teaching Relativity Theory to a three year old. It won't > work - it is too early. So my rather personal question is: apart from the > fun of learning a formal system called Abhidhamma and discussing it what is > it's use for those of us who are no Sotapanna? Wouldn't it be more efficient > to first reach Sotapanna, to first become aware of our inner organs (like > through the practice of Hatha yoga) and whatever else is required for > Sotapanna before learning about nama-rupa and citta and all that? Wouldn't > it be more efficient to practice jhana so that one's next rebirth is likely > to be a deva (to whom Abhidhamma was taught in the first place)? > > I thought this was an excellent post. Your observations on "just seeing" were spot on. It is hard for me to determine whether the good folk here see the Abhidhamma as being about sensing, with sense-data not being available for inspection, or about perception, which is entirely concept-based. Cheers Herman #101810 From: Herman Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta egberdina Hi Jon, 2009/10/31 jonoabb > Hi Herman > > (101757) > > It is a natural extension of the well known statement from the Vis that > > 'mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; the deed is, but no doer of > > the deed is there.' > > =============== > > Thanks for this explanation. The passage you mention is from the chapter > dealing with the Four Noble Truths (hence the references to the 4 kinds of > experiencer/doer). It reads (Nanamoli translation): > > ******************* > 90. "...in the ultimate sense all the truths should be understood as > void because of the absence of (i) any experiencer, (ii) any doer, > (iii) anyone who is extinguished, and (iv) any goer. Hence it is said > > 'For there is suffering, but none who suffers; > Doing exists although there is no doer; > Extinction is but no extinguished person; > Although there is a path, there is no goer'. > > Visuddhimagga XVI, 90 (Quoted by Scott at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/70566) > ******************* > > To my reading, the emphasis of the passage is on the absence of a person or > being, rather than on consciousness and its object being one and > indistinguishable in characteristic (if I've understood you correctly). > > OK, thanks for that. However, all my readings of what (for the sake of ease I will call) the KS clan have written over the years suggested that citta is given exactly the same characteristics that are given to a being or a person ie a distinct, separate reality that acts on an object that is other than it. If I have misunderstood all these years, I am more than happy to breathe a sigh of relief and apoligise for my misunderstanding :-) > =============== > > What is the characteristic of consciousness, other than the object? > =============== > > I would say the characteristic of consciousness is the experiencing of an > object. > Thank you for that. Is that different in any way for you than just the object? Are there unexperienced objects? > > =============== > > Subject/object dualism is the belief that objects happen to subjects, or > > that subjects do things to objects. But just like it says in the Vis, > 'mere > > suffering exists, no sufferer is found; the deed is, but no doer of the > deed > > is there.' There is not a subject to which the object is happening. Blue > > doesn't happen to consciousness, there is just blue. No consciousness is > > found. > =============== > > Thanks for this explanation. For reasons mentioned above, I do not see > this the Vism passage as denying the notion of consciousness as a dhamma > that has the function of experiencing an object. > I saw in the passage the denial of anything "external" to experience. > > =============== > > I hope that is clearer, and if not, I'm happy to continue discussing. > =============== > > Yes, clearer, thanks. There are numerous references in the suttas to > consciousness and its object (e.g., seeing and visible object, hearing and > sound), as dhammas to be known each for what they are. I agree with you. There are also a number of references to the way out of being stuck in that scenario. They have to do with "consciousnes" finding no foothold anywhere, and the subsequent release that follows naturally from that. Cheers Herman #101811 From: Herman Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 6:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/11/1 > Hi, Herman (and Ken) - > ============================ > Herman, I don't know whether you realize it - in fact you may outright > deny it, but the basis for what you are asserting here is, IMO at least, a > phenomenalism/empiricism Gawd, it sounds bad, is it that serious, doctor? :-) :-) > that conceives of every rupa as experience, and > every nama as a mode of existence (e.g., as merely present, as pleasant, > as > murky, as loved, etc). > Blue, to you, is an experience and not something that can exist "in > itself" as an unseen or a waiting-to-be-seen. Yes, exactly. It would be interesting to see if there are folks out there who conceive of unexperienced experience. Cheers Herman #101812 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 8:49 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 3, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, The outer appearance of things deludes us as to what is really there: fleeting phenomena which are beyond control. We read in the commentary to the Dhammapada (Buddhist Legends II, Book IV, Story 2) about a monk who meditated on a mirage, but was unable to reach the state of perfection. He decided to visit the Buddha and on his way he saw a mirage. We read that he said to himself: “Even as this mirage seen in the season of the heat appears substantial to those who are far off, but vanishes on nearer approach, so also is this existence unsubstantial by reason of birth and decay.” We read that he meditated on this mirage. Wearied from his journey he bathed in the river Aciravatí and then sat near a waterfall: …As he sat there watching great bubbles of foam rising and bursting, from the force of the water striking against the rocks, he said to himself, “Just so is this existence also produced and just so does it burst.” And this he took for his subject of meditation. The Teacher, seated in his perfumed chamber, saw the Elder and said, “Monk, it is even so. Like a bubble of foam or a mirage is this existence. Precisely thus is it produced and precisely thus does it pass away.” And when he had thus spoken, he pronounced the following stanza: “He who knows that this body is like foam, he who clearly comprehends that it is of the nature of a mirage, Such a man will break the flower-tipped arrows of Måra and will go where the King of Death will not see him.” We read that the monk at the conclusion of this stanza reached the state of perfection. Måra represents all that is evil, he is the King of Death. The person who has eradicated all defilements will not be reborn, there will not be for him anymore old age, sickness and death, thus, the “King of Death” will not see him anymore. Life is like a mirage, we are time and again deceived and tricked by the outer appearance of things. We believe that what we experience can last, at least for a while, and that there is a self who experiences things, a lasting personality. We take our wrong perceptions to be true, we have a distorted view of realities. Through the development of precise understanding of different realities which appear one at a time, our distorted view can be corrected. ******** Nina. #101813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 9:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama and rupa. was:samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear freawaru, Op 30-okt-2009, om 20:51 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > it seems to me that "seeing" in Abhidhamma refers to the "lower" > processes of the brain, those in the evolutional old part (reptile > brain, etc). These are generally unconscious and not accessible by > the higher functions of the brain, including our personality.... --------- N: The lower processes of the brain, that is thinking and in this way the reality of seeing will not be known. In the suttas you will notice that the Buddha speaks time and again of seeing, hearing, etc. These have to be known as they are, more and more. We cling to an idea of 'I see", but the Buddha taught us to develop more understanding so that anatta, non-self, will be clearly understood. Is there no ordinary seeing, just now? It is reality. Nobody can make it arise. It arises because of its own conditions. It has a characteristic, it is different from hearing, which arises because of conditions different from those by which seeing arises. Nobody can alter characteristics of realities. --------- > F: So my rather personal question is: apart from the fun of > learning a formal system called Abhidhamma and discussing it what > is it's use for those of us who are no Sotapanna? Wouldn't it be > more efficient to first reach Sotapanna, to first become aware of > our inner organs (like through the practice of Hatha yoga) and > whatever else is required for Sotapanna before learning about nama- > rupa and citta and all that? Wouldn't it be more efficient to > practice jhana so that one's next rebirth is likely to be a deva > (to whom Abhidhamma was taught in the first place)? ------- N: Understanding of realities, mental phenomena and physical phenomena have to be developed stage by stage. In the suttas we read that the conditions for attaining the state of sotaapanna is listening, considering, wise attention, practice of the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma. No mentioning of Hatthayoga. As to jhaana, for this you have to have accumulated inclination and skill. Do not underestimate it. Learning about nama and rupa, yes, that is pariyatti and necessary for the practice of satipa.t.thaana. Learning about the nama and rupa appearing now. I repeat what I posted today: Nina. #101814 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 10:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, sutta 50)and commentary. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- On Thu, 29/10/09, upasaka@... wrote: >I'm glad you've persisted with this issue, because clearly it's remained a concern and others have raised the same points. Please be patient with yet another attempt to 'clarify'! ============ ========= ========= ===== H:> Thank you for writing on this, Sarah. I do indeed hope your analysis is correct, though it doesn't seem so to me. Perhaps the translation is faulty or the formulation of the Pali as recorded was less than optimal or, less likely, the Buddha was unclear in his original formulation, or perhaps the sutta became corrupted in it's being passed down. In any case, for the record, I do *not* believe that the Buddha himself had a racist perspective. In fact he made it quite clear in other suttas that he did not in the slightest - quite the opposite in fact. ... S: Yes, I don't think anyone's suggesting that you're suggesting that the Buddha had a racist perspective, rest assured. I think that we always have to read individual suttas or commentaries, for that matter, in the light of the Tipitaka as a whole. As I mentioned to James, it's actually a lot easier to appreciate the main points of the sutta without any misunderstanding if one just considers the dhammas involved and doesn't get swayed by the particular conventional language and examples. Just as there are different kinds of seeds and some are well-nurtured, while others aren't, so too with the vipaka experienced and the effect of the deep-rooted asaya-anusaya (wholesome and unwholesome latent tendencies). That's how I view it, anyway... Metta Sarah ========== #101815 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 10:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defecating Formally --- Enter The Abhidhammika 4! sarahprocter... Dear Suan, I like this paragraph and your translation. I think the essence of the Buddha's teachings on anatta is contained within it - just conditioned elements, not belonging to anyone: --- On Thu, 29/10/09, abhidhammika wrote: >Inside the body, there isn't anything called self that does the defecating and urinating chore. Only by the expansive pressure of mind-made wind element, defecating and urinating chore happens. Like pus and blood come out desirelessly due to a boil breaking when the boil ripens, and like water spills over desirelessly from the over-filled water pot, so do feces and urine gathering in the bowel and the bladder come out desirelessly due to the downward push of the wind force. Moreover, those feces and urine thus coming out are neither the property of that monk nor of anybody else, but, are merely bodily secretion only. Like how? Like the old water is neither one's property nor of others and is only a mere case of hygienic care for the one who depletes that water from the water bottle. In terms of deep consideration thus arising, disillusive comprehension should be understood here.< [Abbhantare attaa naama uccaarapassaavakamm am karonto natthi, cittakiriyavaayodha atuvipphaareneva pana uccaarapassaavakamm am hoti. Yathaa pana pakke ga.n.de ga.n.dabhedena pubbalohitam akaamataaya nikkhamati. Yathaa ca atibharitaa udakabhaajanaa udakam akaamataaya nikkhamati. Evam pakkaasayamuttavatt hiisu sannicitaa uccaarapassaavaa vaayuvegasamuppii. litaa akaamataayapi nikkhamanti. So panaayam evam nikkhamanto uccaarapassaavo neva tassa bhikkhuno attano hoti, na parassa, kevalam sariiranissandova hoti. Yathaa kim? Yathaa udakatumbato puraa.nudakam cha.d.dentassa neva tam attano hoti, na paresam; kevalam pa.tijagganamattame va hoti; evam pavattapa.tisankhaa navasenettha asammohasampajaññ am veditabbam.] >Section 109, Catusampajaññapabbava .n.nanaa, Mahaasatipa. t.thaana Suttam, Muulapa.n.naasa A.t.thakathaa, Majjhimanikaayo. Many thanks for translating the passages for us, Metta Sarah ========== #101816 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Dear pt (& all), My original reply was such a mess to this qu, so I'd like to answer it again, so pls 'cut and paste' it into the original if you respond to that one. (Even in the follow-ups the dvi-pa~nca vi~n~naana cittas were missing in the original paragraph!) --- On Sat, 31/10/09, sarah abbott wrote: >>pt: Vipaka can only occur through the 5 sense-doors, it can't appear through the mind-door, right? ... >S: Vipaka cittas arise through all 6 doorways. Furthermore, the "process-freed" cittas which don't arise through any doorway (i.e. patisandhi, bhanvanga and cuti cittas) are also vipaka cittas. The vipaka cittas which arise through the 5 sense-doors are the following: the dvi-pa~nca vi~n~naana cittas (i.e. 2 kinds of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and body consciousness), sampaticchana citta, santiirana citta and the tadaarammana cittas (registering consciousness) when they arise. The vipaka cittas which arise through the mind-door are just the tadaarammana cittas when they arise in the process immediately following the sense-door process.< ***** Thanks for your patience. Metta Sarah ======== #101817 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 10:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 5 resulting from kamma sarahprocter... Dear Alberto & pt, Actually all the detail on the vipaka cittas is contained in Alberto's message and quotes form the Dhsg (#101792). The key to it is the commentary, Atthasalini passage which follows, but it's still difficult reading, I know. For those who say that the process details are not included in the Abhidhamma, this is a good example - all the various vipaka cittas are mentioned here, but it depends on the understanding whether one appreciates what is being referred to and how the 'jigsaw' or 'big picture' all fits together. Everything we read in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha can actually be found in detail in the Abhidhamma and its ancient commentaries, but the Ab.Sangaha gives us a very useful summary. Thanks, Alberto! Anytime you feel like give a one para simple summary at the start, I'm sure most people would appreciate it:-) Metta Sarah --- On Sat, 31/10/09, sprlrt wrote: From: sprlrt Subject: [dsg] Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 5 resulting from kamma <..> - As registering powerful objects through any of the six doors. <..> Metta Sarah ========= #101818 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 11:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Howard), I think you've been making some very useful points, such as the following: --- On Thu, 29/10/09, Lukas wrote: >The preparation to Lucid Dream, this trying to not be "forgetful" is not the same as right understanding and right awarness. I understand what you mean, but no one can acquire right awarness from trying to be in "present moment". The right understanding is to not try to be in "present moment".< ... S: I think your discussion with Howard is a very interesting one. Hope you both continue. Metta Sarah ======= #101819 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta jonoabb Hi Howard (101798) > I'm not aware of any reference in the texts to the content/object of > vinnana as having a knowable feature or characteristic (call it what you will). > I'd be interested to know the basis for suggesting that it does. > --------------------------------------------------- > Ahh. It seems, then, that you must not be able to distinguish between > knowing and known, because the Buddha didn't tell you how to! ;-) > =============== I do have a mind of my own, I can assure you ;-)), ;-)) The question is not whether there is a knowable distinction between knowing and the known, but whether this particular knowledge was included in the teachings as part of the development of insight. You say that it is, and I'm simply asking where you get this idea from. To my understanding, the development of the path involves knowing different dhammas as they truly are, the emphasis being on the characteristic(s) of the individual dhamma rather than on the distinction you mention. > =============== > Jon, do you realize that you are saying that there is no > characteristic that enables the distinguishing of consciousness from it's object? Well, > no - you're not exactly saying that; you're saying that there is no > reference in "the texts" to such. (And for you, what isn't mentioned in the texts, > even what is trivially obvious, must be false. I happen to consider that > absurd, but, hey, to each his own! ;-) > =============== I'm afraid what you say here misses the point of my question. I'm simply asking for the basis for the significance (as you see it) of the distinction of knowing and known in the development of insight. > =============== There IS a > consciousness/content (or object) distinction that holds, independent of > whether the object is rupa or nama. =============== Yes, but where do you find any mention of this distinction, and its importance to the development of insight, in the teachings? =============== > There are texts that describe how cakkhu-vinnana comes into existence > dependent upon rupa (form/visible object), but none that I know of saying that > rupa (form/visible object) comes into existence dependent upon > cakkhu-vinnana. Have you come across any? > -------------------------------------------- > Sorry, can't write now - too busy trying to get the noose properly set > around my neck! ;-) =============== Well I hope you don't do anything foolish while we're still having a discussion ;-)) If it is said that A depends on/requires B for its coming into existence, but nothing is said about B depending on/requiring A for its coming into existence, there is left open the (theoretical) possibility of B coming into existence without A. So no matter how unlikely we may see the possibility of there being B without A, it cannot be asserted that A and B are necessarily inseparable. Jon #101820 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 11:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. jonoabb Hi Herman (and freawaru) (101802) > What is being tossed around is that it is a citta that arises and ceases. > That is no different to say, a being arising and ceasing, or a person, or a > soul, is it? That is just annihilationism. > =============== It depends of course on your definition of "annihilationism" ;-)). To my understanding, the assertion that whatever arises by conditions must fall away when those conditions no longer pertain is not an instance of annihilationism. > =============== > Thoughts of the arising and ceasing of discrete > entities are not in line with DO (or anicca for that matter). > =============== It depends of course on your definition of "discrete entities" ;-)) Those who understand the teachings in terms of cittas as momentary arisings and falling away do not necessarily conceive of cittas as "discrete entities". Regardless of our individual interpretation of the teachings, we all continue to conceive of the world as a world of people and things, and that is not the way things are in truth and reality according to the teachings. Jon #101821 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 11:48 am Subject: Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. szmicio Dear Sarah, Howard Recently I again appreciated listening. I wasnt sure that my posts are helpful for everyone. I can say something and it can be a condition for dosa for some people. Maybe I shouldnt support the ideas that differentiate people? This is my dhamma question to you. I see like those different concepts influence personalities. different reactions. Also What can be a condition for anger, it can be also very helpful. For me what you, Nina and others said to me , was so helpful. I appreciated all anataness and emptiness helpful reminders. dhammas , dhammas. just conditioned element. conditioned, conditioned element. sapaccaya, sankhata, what does it mean? It means that is not just theory, that all is without control. sapaccaya, sankhata it means the characteristic that can be know. all without control, different conditoned elements, no Self. I also read your answer to pt, on one pannati for many javanacittas in one mind-door-process, then another concept in different mind-door process. as I understand it. But isnt it the first ~nana that all is very clear. And then it's just the panna dhatu that knows? But isnt it like that we need to hear more and more and first there is some kusala thinking that is of paryiatti level? Jon said, there is a need to develop all lesser degree of kusala. But who can develop anything. For sure Kusala are very important, but when there is no tihetuka kusala citta. Then it cannot be appraciated. I feel very hard to develop this or that with such big idea of Self that accompanies me all the time. But no matter what there is always something. and this can be an object to understanding, when they are conditions. No one knows when. I learned form my life that development of right understanding, and learning more on Non-Self is a great condition to all kind of kusala. The all is so easy ;> Best wishes Lukas > I think you've been making some very useful points, such as the following: > > --- On Thu, 29/10/09, Lukas wrote: > > >The preparation to Lucid Dream, this trying to not be "forgetful" is not the same as right understanding and right awarness. I understand what you mean, but no one can acquire right awarness from trying to be in "present moment". The right understanding is to not try to be in "present moment".< > ... > S: I think your discussion with Howard is a very interesting one. Hope you both continue. #101822 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta nilovg Hi Howard (and Jon), Op 1-nov-2009, om 12:31 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > There IS a > > consciousness/content (or object) distinction that holds, > independent of > > whether the object is rupa or nama. > =============== > > Yes, but where do you find any mention of this distinction, and its > importance to the development of insight, in the teachings? -------- N: Very important, so long as you take nama and rupa together as a whole, the truth of anatta cannot be known. If I do not misunderstand you, Howard, you find it difficult to accept that there is the arising of colour that is is unknown by a citta. When it is known by seeing, it is object, but it is not object all the time. Each ruupa arises in a group and there are at least eight ruupas in a group: the four great Elements, colour, flavour, odour, nutrition, and these are called the eight inseparable ruupas. If bodyconsciousness experiences hardness, earth element or solidity is the object, and the accompanying ruupas of that group, including colour, are not experienced, they are not objects. Colour arises as part of that group but it is not object. Groups of rupas are arising and falling away time and again, and it depends on conditions what object is experienced by which citta. You are afarid of substantialism, a rupa that exists. No need to fear, they are like foam, so ephemeral. They arise and fall away all the time. The citta that experiences an object is like a flash of lightning. Nina. #101823 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/1/2009 6:32:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (101798) > I'm not aware of any reference in the texts to the content/object of > vinnana as having a knowable feature or characteristic (call it what you will). > I'd be interested to know the basis for suggesting that it does. > --------------------------------------------------- > Ahh. It seems, then, that you must not be able to distinguish between > knowing and known, because the Buddha didn't tell you how to! ;-) > =============== I do have a mind of my own, I can assure you ;-)), ;-)) The question is not whether there is a knowable distinction between knowing and the known, but whether this particular knowledge was included in the teachings as part of the development of insight. You say that it is, and I'm simply asking where you get this idea from. ------------------------------------------------------ Please quote me on that. Where did I say that? I don't need the Buddha or anyone else to tell me that there is a distinction between knowing and known. Do you confuse the two often? Do you confuse feeling warmth with the felt warmth? I don't. The first is the presence of the second. Experiencing warmth is an activity/event, and the warmth is the experiential content. -------------------------------------------------------- To my understanding, the development of the path involves knowing different dhammas as they truly are, the emphasis being on the characteristic(s) of the individual dhamma rather than on the distinction you mention. > =============== > Jon, do you realize that you are saying that there is no > characteristic that enables the distinguishing of consciousness from it's object? Well, > no - you're not exactly saying that; you're saying that there is no > reference in "the texts" to such. (And for you, what isn't mentioned in the texts, > even what is trivially obvious, must be false. I happen to consider that > absurd, but, hey, to each his own! ;-) > =============== I'm afraid what you say here misses the point of my question. I'm simply asking for the basis for the significance (as you see it) of the distinction of knowing and known in the development of insight. -------------------------------------------------------- The significance is nothing more or less than it being a reality, and being unconfused about what is real is the nature of insight, whereas being confused is the opposite. But I have not been writing about insight. I've made no claims about insight. ------------------------------------------------------- > =============== There IS a > consciousness/content (or object) distinction that holds, independent of > whether the object is rupa or nama. =============== Yes, but where do you find any mention of this distinction, and its importance to the development of insight, in the teachings? ----------------------------------------------------- I find the importance of seeing the way things actually are as basic to "the teachings". --------------------------------------------------- =============== > There are texts that describe how cakkhu-vinnana comes into existence > dependent upon rupa (form/visible object), but none that I know of saying that > rupa (form/visible object) comes into existence dependent upon > cakkhu-vinnana. Have you come across any? > -------------------------------------------- > Sorry, can't write now - too busy trying to get the noose properly set > around my neck! ;-) =============== Well I hope you don't do anything foolish while we're still having a discussion ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- ;-) ------------------------------------------------------- If it is said that A depends on/requires B for its coming into existence, but nothing is said about B depending on/requiring A for its coming into existence, there is left open the (theoretical) possibility of B coming into existence without A. So no matter how unlikely we may see the possibility of there being B without A, it cannot be asserted that A and B are necessarily inseparable. ------------------------------------------------------- I assure you that sights and seeing are inseparable, one from the other. There is neither without the other, ever. And the Buddha actually HAS said so - in the Kalaka Sutta: There is no unseen sight. ------------------------------------------------------ Jon ================================ With metta, Howard Emptiness of Consciousness /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) #101824 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/1/2009 7:56:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Very important, so long as you take nama and rupa together as a whole, the truth of anatta cannot be known. If I do not misunderstand you, Howard, you find it difficult to accept that there is the arising of colour that is is unknown by a citta. When it is known by seeing, it is object, but it is not object all the time. Each ruupa arises in a group and there are at least eight ruupas in a group: the four great Elements, colour, flavour, odour, nutrition, and these are called the eight inseparable ruupas. If bodyconsciousness experiences hardness, earth element or solidity is the object, and the accompanying ruupas of that group, including colour, are not experienced, they are not objects. Colour arises as part of that group but it is not object. Groups of rupas are arising and falling away time and again, and it depends on conditions what object is experienced by which citta. You are afarid of substantialism, a rupa that exists. No need to fear, they are like foam, so ephemeral. They arise and fall away all the time. The citta that experiences an object is like a flash of lightning. Nina. ================================ The Buddha has said that there are no unseen sights. Specifically he taught the following: "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe a seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe a to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer." I understand this to mean that there is no visible object existing on its own that is encountered by seeing, nor is there one that is unseen, nor is there one that is waiting to be unseen, nor is there a seer entity of any sort (like a person or "citta thing"), but, instead, seeing and seen are mutually dependent and inseparable. With metta, Howard #101825 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 8:21 am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 11/1/2009 8:18:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: nor is there one that is waiting to be unseen ========================= The word 'unseen' should obviously be 'seen'. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101826 From: "freawaru80" Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fours (314, sutta 50)and commentary. freawaru80 Hello Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > 2009/10/23 Nina van Gorkom > > > Dear friends, > > > > First a correction in sutta 49: > > As to the first case, a person who lives in darkness and is bound for > > darkness, this is someone who is born into a low caste, of the > > untouchables (ca.n.daalaa), as the commentary explains. He has wrong > > livelihood, his outward appearance is unfavorable and he performs the > > three kinds of akusala.. > > > > > Why do you repeat this stuff? Do you agree with it? Vicki and I have just > spent a few days in India, and it certainly wasn't pretty. But blaming > people for the circumstances into which they are born seems to me to be a > pinnacle of ignorance. Would you similarly justify the plunder of SE Asia by > the Dutch aristocrats on the basis of their birth or their kusala? > > Cheers > > Herman > don't let these kind of sutta confuse you. They don't mean what people make them to mean. They are written in a very special language (Buddhadasa Bhikkhu calls it Dhamma language). It is a technical language and just like all other technical languages it uses terms from every-day language (of the time of the speaker, in this case Gautama) to denote specific concepts only found in the specific context. Like "bug" in the context of computers does not refer to a biological insect. "Light" refers to what we would term today "lucidity", "darkness" to it's opposite. Some beings are lucid and bound for lucidity, some beings are lucid but bound to fall again into "darkness" and so on. The analogy to temporal social structures of one single country is just that: an analogy. Dhamma refers to truths, not to singular cultural appearances in spacetime. Regarding lucidity and "darkness" there are just these two options. You will have noted that only three lokas are mentioned. No hungry ghost for example. A yogi who is in jhana is in the deva realm, but most yogis are bound for darkness again, falling to hell when the "body" (not referring to the physical body but to a body of jhanic beings that one needs to be in jhana) ceases to stay stable. It is very unpleasant to fall from jhana, to loose it's lucidity. Remember the definition of human, hell being and deva, suttas like this are about Dhamma and not about accepting social unfairness. Kusala, right speech and so on, it is not like "once been able to always been able to". It comes and goes. We all go through times of darkness and times of light - at least until sotapanna. Only aryans are not bound for hell any more, lucidity is lasting. Freawaru #101827 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 2:12 pm Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta szmicio Dear Albert, Connie, Sarah, pt and friends There was Patthana quotation's needed on upanisayapaccaya. 9.Upanissayapaccayoti – purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m abyaakataana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m abyaakataana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m abyaakataana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo . Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Utubhojanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Puggalopi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Senaasanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. ---- I leave it like that. As I understand purima - past and pacchimaana - latest or present(?) It goes like that: "past kusala dhamma condition present kusala dhamma by the way of upanisayapaccaya. And so on. I've got a question. How do u understand this: Utubhojanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Puggalopi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Senaasanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. I think it's: temperature and food is conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. The personality is conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. Lodging is conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. #101828 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 2:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta nilovg Hi Howard, Op 1-nov-2009, om 14:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > seeing and seen are > mutually dependent and inseparable. ------- N: Yes, if you take the seen as on object that is seen. Colour or what is visible arises and falls away, and sometimes it is an object, sometimes not. Right? Nina. #101829 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 2:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paccaya. was: More questions about nimitta nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 1-nov-2009, om 15:12 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Utubhojanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Puggalopi > upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Senaasanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. > > I think it's: > temperature and food is conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. The > personality is conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. Lodging is > conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. ------- N: No it is different, they are conditions.Temperature, food and lodging and also a person are conditions, by being upanissayapaccaya. Namely, they condition cittas by way of upanissaya paccaya. The Buddha took rice gruel before he attained enlightenment. People in Kuru had the right climate, suitable, helpful for taking in the teachings. A person, being in his company, conditions by way of upanissaya paccaya one's cittas. ****** Nina. #101830 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 10:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/1/2009 9:51:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 1-nov-2009, om 14:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > seeing and seen are > mutually dependent and inseparable. ------- N: Yes, if you take the seen as on object that is seen. Colour or what is visible arises and falls away, and sometimes it is an object, sometimes not. Right? Nina. ============================== Color & colors are abstractions. What appears when seeing, the entire visual panorama, is not an abstraction. It is that which is "visible object" and is what I call "a sight," and as far as I'm concerned and as I understand the Buddha to teach in the Kalakamara Sutta, such a thing, when it exists, does so only as the object/content of consciousness. Where and how alleged external visible objects arise other than as content of consciousnness arise is beyond me! According to the Kalakamara Sutta, it is beyond the Buddha as well. Nina, do you also countenance unfelt bodily sensations - unfelt itches for example, and also unexperienced joy, and untasted flavors? Where do they exist? What is joy or a taste or a bodily sensation if not an experience? With metta, Howard Emptiness of Consciousness /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) #101831 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 3:22 pm Subject: Re: paccaya. was: More questions about nimitta szmicio Dear Nina > > I think it's: > > temperature and food is conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. The > > personality is conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. Lodging is > > conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. > > ------- > N: No it is different, they are conditions.Temperature, food and > lodging and also a person are conditions, by being upanissayapaccaya. > Namely, they condition cittas by way of upanissaya paccaya. > The Buddha took rice gruel before he attained enlightenment. People > in Kuru had the right climate, suitable, helpful for taking in the > teachings. A person, being in his company, conditions by way of > upanissaya paccaya one's cittas. > temperature and food are ruupas. So those passage means ruupas that condition citta by way of upanissayapacayyo? lodging looks different. #101832 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 3:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (315, 3, 4) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 3. CSCD Walshe DN 33.2.1(3) 'Five strands of sense-desire (pa~nca kaama-gu.naa): a sight seen by the eye, a sound heard by the ear, a smell smelt by the nose, a flavour tasted by the tongue, a tangible object felt by the body as being desirable, attractive, nice, charming, associated with lust and arousing passion. < Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 3:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paccaya. was: More questions about nimitta nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 1-nov-2009, om 16:22 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > temperature and food are ruupas. So those passage means ruupas that > condition citta by way of upanissayapacayyo? > > lodging looks different. ------- U Narada in the Guide to conditional relations explains: also concepts can be a condition by way of upanissaya paccaya. Take lodging and person, they are concepts. Nina. #101834 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 4:06 am Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. > S: ...I think that the reason that objects are taken as "real and lasting" is because there is not the understanding of namas and rupas, let alone their rapid rising and falling away in succession. pt: Okay, that makes sense, but then, even this taking of an object to be "lasting" has to be some kind of a dhamma arammana, presumably as another concept, aside from being accompanied by ditthi and other unwholesome cetasikas? > > >How does it happen that a certain concept all of sudden just pops into my head, without any seeming relevance to the present situation for example? > > >> S: Natural decisive support condition. Any object experienced can be recalled anytime later, even aeons later by this condition. pt: Regarding pannatti, if it is conditioned as you say above, and it can also condition other dhammas as Nina just mentioned in a post to Lukas, then: 1. how is pannatti different from a regular dhamma that can also both condition and be conditioned (I know that usually it's said that concepts are not real as other dhammas, but I wonder on what basis this is said considering that concepts can both condition and be conditioned)? 2. why is it often said that concepts are unconditioned if we just said that concepts can both act as condition and be conditioned? what am I missing? > >2. I think I read somewhere that thoughts and dreams are "mental vipaka" - this doesn't seem right?... pt: Thanks very much for attention to detail in your replies to this question, I understand now what you've said. The only thing I still can't understand is how did Bhikkhu Bodhi get to number 22 of vipaka cittas in the quote: "Mind-contact is the contact associated with the twenty-two kinds of resultant consciousness, excluding the two sets of fivefold sense consciousness."? I can't get to more than 14 cittas no matter what arithmetic combination I try, I must be forgetting something (I guess I can't make proper sense out of Alberto's quote). Thanks. Best wishes pt #101835 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Nov 1, 2009 10:27 pm Subject: Il Poya: The coming of the next Buddha Metteyya! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Il Poya day is this full-moon day of November. This sacred day celebrates: 1: The Buddha Gotama 's declaration of the next Buddha <...> On how to meet Buddha Metteyya in the future: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/IV/How-2-Meet_Buddha_Metteyya.htm On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards Nibbana: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town & country to me <...> May your journey hereby be light, swift and sweet. Never give up !! For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Have a nice Poya day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <..> #101836 From: "ptaus1" Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's last word ptaus1 Dear Sarah and all, I was going through UP, there's this interesting quote in post 32017 and I'm wondering what's the source of the quote: "Thus all of this has been told and discussed for forty-five years from my enlightenment to my parinibbaana; three baskets, five Nikaayas, nine branches (a'nga), eight-four thousand groups of dhamma: these are the major divisions. Thus these eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma remain. I alone attain parinibbaana, and now I alone advise and instruct. After I have attained parinibbaana, these eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma, will advise and instruct you." From the context of the whole post, I'm guessing the quote is from commentary to Mahaparinibbana sutta, but would just like to confirm. Also, is the English translation of the above available somewhere, or was it your translation from Pali? Thanks. Best wishes pt Post 32017 attached below in full: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > > Dear Htoo, RobM, KenH & All, > > --- Htoo Naing wrote: > > > Just before going into silence, Bhgava last said, '' Behold now, > > bhikkhus, I exhort you : All compounded things are subjected to vanish. > > Strive with earnestness! '' > <...> > > And We all should pay special attention to The Buddha's last word '' > > Appama dena sampadetha'' ' Strive with earnestness'. > > > > Sati or mindfulness should be our companion. We have to bring it up all > > the time. > .... > S: I'd also been considering these last words when I saw RobM and KenH > were also discussing them: > .... > RM: > The Buddha often encouraged monks to take action. The last > words of the Buddha (SN VI.15) were, > ---------------------- > KH: Now hang on Rob; the Buddha spent his life teaching a doctrine > of anatta (no-self); wouldn't it be horribly inappropriate to > interpret his last words as an endorsement of self-belief? :-) > ------------------ > RM: > "I exhort you, monks: All fabrications are subject to decay. > Bring about completion by being heedful." > ----------- > KH: There is no conflict with anatta: "I exhort you, monks" > describes right speech and wise attention to that speech; the rest > describes how the Eightfold Path conditions escape from samsara. > ***** > S: The commentary to the Parinibbana sutta adds: > " `Achieve with vigilance': You should successfully perform (sampadeyatha) > all your duties (sabbakiccaani) with no absence of mindfulness. Thus* did > the Blessed One, while lying on his deathbed, give (adaasi) all the advice > he had given for forty-five years by putting it into the single word > "vigilance" (appamaada)."** > > *Thus - Spk1 adds: "As a landlord of great wealth lying on his deathbed > would explain to his sons the value of his property." > > ** Appamaada: In the commentaries it is often explained as the presence of > mindfulness (see Nyantiloka dict)..Narada (in his translation of Appamaada > Vagga in Dhp) says that literally it means non-infatuation. > ..... > Like Ken H, I certainly don't read these lines as being any endorsement of > self-belief or self-action. Just before these last lines, the Buddha had > stressed that the Dhamma-Vinaya was to be our teacher after his > parinibbanae and the commentary elaborates in detail on these words, > stresseing satipa.t.thaana, the khandhas, the aayatana, the dhaatu, etc. > Finally it says: > > "Thus all of this has been told and discussed for forty-five years from my > enlightenment to my parinibbaana; three baskets, five Nikaayas, nine > branches (a'nga), eight-four thousand groups of dhamma: these are the > major divisions. Thus these eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma remain. > I alone attain parinibbaana, and now I alone advise and instruct. After I > have attained parinibbaana, these eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma, > will advise and instruct you." > > Just before these lines, which stress the three baskets etc, it also says: > > "I have analysed these things in detail and taught the Abhidhamma-pi.taka, > which is adorned by the Mahaapa.t.thaana with its countless methods and > its twenty-fourfold complete origin (samantapa.t.thaana). All of that, > the basket of the Abhidhamma, will perform the role of the Teacher for you > when I attain parinibbaana." > > S: As we know, the Buddha's omniscience is said to have found its > `opportunity' when considering The Pa.t.thaana and thenty-four conditions > and golden rays emanated from his body. > > U Narada who translated the Patthana(Conditional Relations) into English, > wrote in his Guide: > > "In essence, Patthana deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and > formed(sankhata) states that arise and cease at every instant withut a > break and which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. > These states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not > at the will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, > but from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the > Analytical Exposition of the Conditions. So Patthana is the teaching of > anatta." > > Look forward to any further comments. Are we all in agreement on the > meaning of the last words? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > > #101837 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 5:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: More questions about nimitta sarahprocter... Dear pt (& Alberto & all) More on the other points later, but I think I can answer this one fairly quickly (uh oh!): --- On Mon, 2/11/09, ptaus1 wrote: pt: Thanks very much for attention to detail in your replies to this question, I understand now what you've said. The only thing I still can't understand is how did Bhikkhu Bodhi get to number 22 of vipaka cittas in the quote: "Mind-contact is the contact associated with the twenty-two kinds of resultant consciousness, excluding the two sets of fivefold sense consciousness. "? ... S: There's a helpful chart on p.28 of CMA. This is my calculation. Perhaps Alberto can check it: Sense-shere cittas: - 7 ahetuka (rootless) unwholesome vipaka cittas* - 8 ahetuka wholesome vipaka cittas** =15, less 10 dvi-pa~nca vi~n~naana cittas (the two sets referred to) =5 - 8 sahetuka (rooted) kaamaavacara vipaka cittas, the results of the 8 kinds of wholesome kamaavacara cittas So that gives us 5 +8 = 13 sense-sphere vipaka cittas, excluding the 5 pairs). Then, add: 5 ruupavacara (fine-material sphere) results + 4 aruupavacara (immaterial-shere) results = 9 So the total is 13 + 9 = 22 ***************************** The lokuttara phala cittas (results of magga cittas) are excluded because the context is that of D.O. The lokuttara cittas are not 'building bricks' in D.O. *- 7 ahetuka (rootless) unwholesome vipaka cittas = 5 sense consciousness beginning with seeing, + sampaticchana + santiirana **- 8 ahetuka wholesome vipaka cittas** = 5 sense consciousness + sampaticchana + 2 kinds of santiirana, one with upekkha, one with somanassa. As I say, pls check the math and let me know if any of it doesn't make sense for any reason. Metta Sarah p.s we could examine that entire para in CMA if you like. ============ #101838 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 6:53 am Subject: Re: paccaya. was: More questions about nimitta szmicio Dear Nina, > > lodging looks different. > ------- > U Narada in the Guide to conditional relations explains: also > concepts can be a condition by way of upanissaya paccaya. Take > lodging and person, they are concepts. L: Now it looks OK. The same with other things. In the Samohavinodhani, There is a section on ruupa being molested. And there is a detailed explanation on it. By being molested by cold and heat, and being molested by creepy things, that is being beaten by snake or another animal. the cold is ruupa but also a concept. When we stay in cold on railway station there can be knowing of ruupa and also of citta with different concepts of cold. also this 'being molested by creepy things'. The section is on ruupa, but i think the concepts also are included. without them nothing can be molested. The guy with panna being beaten by sneak, he see's just different concepts changing, nothing important. just changing cittas experiencing different concepts. No cryin 'of my god i was beaten by this nasty snake ;>' SN 35.69 PTS: S iv 35 CDB ii 1150 Upasena Sutta: Upasena Once Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Upasena were staying near Rajagaha in the Cool Forest, at Snakeshood Grotto. Then it so happened that a snake fell on Ven. Upasena's body [and bit him]. Then Ven. Upasena said to the monks, "Quick, friends, lift this body of mine onto a couch and carry it outside before it is scattered like a fistful of chaff!" When this was said, Ven. Sariputta said to Ven. Upasena, "But we don't see any alteration in your body or change in your faculties." Then Ven. Upasena said, "Quick, friends, lift this body of mine onto a couch and carry it outside before it is scattered like a fistful of chaff! Friend Sariputta, in anyone who had the thought, 'I am the eye' or 'The eye is mine,' 'I am the ear' or 'The ear is mine,' 'I am the nose' or 'The nose is mine,' 'I am the tongue' or 'The tongue is mine,' 'I am the body or 'The body is mine,' 'I am the intellect' or 'The intellect is mine': in him there would be an alteration in his body or a change in his faculties. But as for me, the thought does not occur to me that 'I am the eye' or 'The eye is mine,'... 'I am the tongue' or 'The tongue is mine,'... 'I am the intellect' or 'The intellect is mine.' So what alteration should there be in my body, what change should there be in my faculties?" Now, Ven. Upasena's I-making, my-making, & obsession with conceit had already been well rooted out for a long time, which is why the thought did not occur to him that "I am the eye" or "The eye is mine,"... "I am the tongue" or "The tongue is mine,"... "I am the intellect" or "The intellect is mine." Then the monks lifted Ven. Upasena's body on a couch and carried it outside. And Ven. Upasena's body was scattered right there like a fistful of chaff. Best wishes Lukas #101839 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 6:59 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 3, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, It is difficult to understand and accept that whatever arises does so because of its own conditions and that it is beyond control. People generally want to control their lives, to take their destinies in their own hands. It can, however, even on the theoretical level, be understood that it is impossible to control one’s life. One cannot control one’s body, one cannot control the different moments of consciousness which arise. When there is, for example, the tasting of a delicious sweet, there is bound to be clinging to the flavour immediately after having tasted it. Tasting arises dependent on tasting-sense, on flavour which impinges on tasting-sense and on other conditions; clinging to the flavour arises because of its own conditions, because of the accumulation of the tendency to clinging. Different moments of consciousness succeed one another so rapidly that it seems that several of them can occur at the same time. So long as there is no precise understanding they cannot be distinguished from each other. In reality only one moment of consciousness can arise at a time. I will give an example of different moments of consciousness, arising each because of their own conditions. Someone had given me a huge teddybear which I put in a chair. Time and again it happened that when I walked past it at dusk there were moments of fear before I realized that it was a teddybear. There was seeing which experienced colour or visible object impinging on the eye-sense, and then, before knowing that there was a teddybear, there were many other moments of consciousness. There can be fear on account of what is seen, before it is known that it is a harmless object. There were moments of recognizing and defining and when there was the registration that there was only a toy, the fear was gone. This example illustrates that there are different conditions for the different moments of consciousness which arise. They arise each because of their own conditions and in a particular order. They arise and fall away so rapidly that there would not even be time to control or direct them. There is no mind, no soul which lasts, merely rapidly changing moments of consciousness. ******* Nina. #101840 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 7:09 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 7. nilovg Dear friends, There are the expressions: overcoming by repression, vikkhambhana- pahåna, and overcoming by destruction, samuccheda-pahåna. Overcoming by repression refers to the subduing of the hindrances and so on by suppression, by preventing their arising by means of concentration of the degree of access concentration and attainment concentration (jhåna), just as a pot thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside. Overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahåna) refers to the abandoning of the groups of defilements which originate in the succession of cittas of someone who develops the Path and which are completely eradicated by the four supramundane Paths so that they cannot arise anymore. Wrong conduct through the body (duccarita) and so on is called “duccarita”. It is also called duccarita because it is conduct that the defilements have ruined. If such conduct has arisen in the succession of cittas, this is called “with corruptions” (sankilesa). The reason is that one is hindered by defilements and thoroughly disturbed. With regard to the abandoning of the corruptions which occur through bodily misconduct or verbal misconduct it is explained that the corruption of craving (tanhå) is taught in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to sensuous desire (kåmachandha). It is explained that the corruption of wrong view (ditthi) is taught in the Abhidhamma, because of the disclosure and explanation of the dhammas which each have their own characteristic (sabhåva dhammas) and are devoid of self and so on.” We see from these text quotations that there are three levels of defilements: Defilements that are transgressions (vítikkama kilesa), coarse defilements of the degree of unwholesome courses of action. Defilements one is possessed by and that arise (pariyutthåna kilesa) are medium defilements that disturb the citta. Latent tendencies (anusaya kilesa) are subtle defilements that lie dormant in the citta and that can be completely eradicated by the four Paths (at the four stages of enlightenment). To conclude: there are latent tendencies which have their own distinct nature and characteristic. ****** Nina. #101841 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, --- On Fri, 30/10/09, Ken O wrote: >the reality of seeing and the process is the same, just like it mention in the suttas. However, the ability to see clearly, colour recognition etc we see is due to kamma. Just like one of my friends is colour blind or when we are old the faculty of seeing has dimished, visible rupas are not so clear as when we are young ... S: Actually, the visible rupas are just as clear, but the eye-sense and other factors affect how the rupas are seen. (I'm pretty sure you meant this!) Metta Sarah ========== #101842 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta sarahprocter... Hi Alex (& Howard), --- On Sat, 31/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Visual consciousness is functional meeting of working eye-sense organ with appropriate visual sense object. ... S: In other words, with visual sense object and eye-sense base as essential conditions, visual consciousness may arise and experience that visual object. .... >The external sense objects are there, whether cognized or not. ... S: Yes, yes, yes! Would you now explain this to Howard? TIA, lol! Metta Sarah ======== #101843 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Third kind of nibbana element and cessation sarahprocter... Hi pt, --- On Fri, 30/10/09, ptaus1 wrote: >1. Usually it's said there are two kinds of nibbana element (from post #8487): "In 'As it was said' ('ltivuttaka' , Ch. II, par. 7, 'Khuddaka Nikaya') two 'conditions of nibbana' (dhatu, which literally means element) are explained. Sa-upadi-sesa nibbana is nibbana with the five khandhas still remaining. For the arahat who has not finally passed away yet, there are still citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling away, although he has eradicated all defilements. An-upadi-sesa nibbana is nibbana without the khandhas remaining. For the arahat who has finally passed away, there are no longer citta, cetasika and rupa arising and falling away." .... S: Fine... .... >However, there's this interesting passage from Nyanatiloka' s dictionary entry on Gotama http://palikanon. com/english/ pali_names/ g/gotama. htm: "It is said (E.g., DA.iii.899) that just before the Buddha's Saasana disappears completely from the world, all the relics will gather together at the Mahaacetiya, and travelling from there to Naagad?pa and the Ratanacetiya, assemble at the Mahaabodhi, together with the relics from other parts. There they will reform the Buddha's golden hued body, emitting the six-coloured aura. The body will then catch fire and completely disappear, amid the lamentations of the ten thousand world-systems. " >How is this passage explained in terms of abhidhamma, as it seems to imply that not all khandas cease for a Buddha while his sasana lasts? .... S: Like with the remains of any dead person, rupas can arise and fall away, conditioned by temperature for a shorter or longer period. Think of Egyptian tombs! These rupas are no longer conditioned by kamma and are like any other rupas outside the body. .... >2. Regarding cessation (nirodha samapatti), there are two contradicting things said in UP: (a) This is from Htoo (post #38159): "Even though there is a single nibbana as its nature, nibbana is talked to have two different forms, saupadisesa nibbana and anupadisesa nibbana. Saupadisesa nibbana is nibbana when sattas are still in the samsara are when they are alive. This nibbana is only present in arahats or anagams while they are in nirodha samapatti. Nirodha means disappearance and samapatti means to be in a state of. Anupadisesa nibbana is the state immediately after cuti citta of arahats." .... S: This is riddled with errors. Sorry, Htoo, looks like the committee needs to review the rating:-( (sometimes difficult when there's a long, helpful message as the one referred to, with just a couple of errors....) ... (b) This is from Swee Boon (post #18398): >"It should be noted that the cessation of perception and feeling is not nibbana and it does not experience anything, not even nibbana. For nibbana can only be experienced by means of cittas; in the cessation of perception and feeling, even cittas (consciousness) is stopped, though temporarily. " ... S: This one is correct. Swee Boon, are you still around? If so, look forward to more helpful messages/clarifications. .. >So, is there nibbana during cessation or not? Thanks. ... S: No, exactly as Swee Boon explains. Sometimes people get nirodha samapatti confused with phala samapatti. In nirodha samapatti (for anagamis and arahats only), no cittas arise, so nibbana cannot be experienced. There are just rupas arising and falling away, including jivitindriya rupa. In phala samapatti, for those who attained any level of enlightenment based on jhanas, the phala cittas (of that level) may arise again with nibbana as object. Good research - I'll look forward to anymore... Metta Sarah ======== #101844 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Ken H), There used to be a time when Ken H wrote a lot of punchy sign-offs, but he's been slacking recently....(and what's happened to that diary entry??) Anyway, fortunately, you (Lukas) are providing quite a few recently, such as this one I liked: L: "But those "tryings" are not the Path. They make sati not to arise. And we dont know that." Look forward to anymore from either of you:-)) You could always exhange them to each... Metta Sarah ======== #101845 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 9:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two truths sarahprocter... Hi Alberto, Makes good sense, thanks! Metta Sarah --- On Fri, 30/10/09, sprlrt wrote: >Patimokkha sìla sets out rules for restraining the last two doors of kamma, speech and body. But complying to the precepts (refraining from lieing, stealing and killing intentionally, from sexual misconduct etc.) can be accomplished by both kusala and akusala cittas, the first door through which kusala or akusala kamma is carried out, according to conditions. On the other end not complying to the precepts can be accomplished only with akusala cittas, according to conditions, I think. #101846 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta nilovg Hi Howard, Op 1-nov-2009, om 16:11 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Color & colors are abstractions. What appears when seeing, the entire > visual panorama, is not an abstraction. It is that which is "visible > object" and is what I call "a sight," and as far as I'm concerned > and as I > understand the Buddha to teach in the Kalakamara Sutta, such a > thing, when it > exists, does so only as the object/content of consciousness. Where > and how > alleged external visible objects arise other than as content of > consciousnness > arise is beyond me! According to the Kalakamara Sutta, it is beyond > the > Buddha as well. ------- N: Sorry, I cannot find this sutta, I have to see the context. You quoted before: "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe a seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe a to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer." Please, give the sutta. I explained to you that ruupas arise in groups, and that colour or visible object is always part of these groups. Learning about these groups is very meaningful, it shows you conditions for whatever sense object is experienced. When it is the right time for hardness to be experienced through the bodysense, just the hardness in a group impinges on the bodysense, and not the other rupas of that group, not colour, though it is present. When it is the right time for the experiencing of colour, just the colour impinges on the eyesense, and not the other rupas of that group. But colour never arises alone, it is together with the four great Elements and the other inseparable ruupas. -------- > H: Nina, do you also countenance unfelt bodily sensations - unfelt > itches > for example, and also unexperienced joy, and untasted flavors? > Where do > they exist? What is joy or a taste or a bodily sensation if not an > experience? ------- N: Now you speak about naama, that is a different subject. A taste or flavour is rupa and it is present in each group of ruupas. Bodily sensation, I know that you mean here hardness etc. thus, ruupas. We discussed before the word sensation, but you use it in this sense. We have to be clear about the difference between nama and rupa. Otherwise the first stage of insight can never be reached. Nina. #101847 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Herman wrote: >> S: At this moment is there seeing? Or hearing? Or thinking, regardless of > any analysis of thinking about them? > > H:> Seeing, hearing, thinking occur in a loose manner of speaking, but if we want to be precise then there is always only the seen object, there is never just seeing. ... S: No one has ever suggested here that there is seeing without a visual object which is seen. However, the characteristics of seeing and visual object are very different - the first experiences its object, the second does not experience anything. Now there is seeing of visual object. Is there any awareness of seeing or visual object? Metta Sarah ====== #101848 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Howard), --- On Mon, 2/11/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >N: Sorry, I cannot find this sutta, I have to see the context. You quoted before: "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe a seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe a to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer." Please, give the sutta. ... S: pls see your earlier discussion with Howard on the same sutta:-)) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46975 Metta Sarah ======== #101849 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhs. The arising of consciousness - 5 resulting from kamma sprlrt Hi Sarah, pt, ... > Thanks, Alberto! Anytime you feel like give a one para simple summary at the start, I'm sure most people would appreciate it:-) I've tried to write short intros as general picture of a specific Dhamma subject but most of the times the result was hopelessly blurred :-( A couple more Atthasalini passages on the subject of the resultant mind-consciousness element functioning as registering (via sañña, for future reference) the object (tadàrammana) of javana cittas. Alberto > The first mind-consciousness element [accompanied by mental pleasure] results [of kusala] in two instances: ... > - It can also results in any of the six doors [processes experiencing] a powerful object (balava àrammana) as registration (tadàrammana) [function]. > How is that? > Like when a boat crosses a strong stream which changes its flow for a while, running along its side before resuming its course. In six door [processes], [the seven] javana [cittas] runs like this when a longed for, powerful object presents itself, and then, [javana] having run, it is the turn of life-continuum, but this citta [the mind-consciousness element] doesn't give in to life-continumm, it doesn't let go of the object of javana and holds on to it for one or two more citta-moments before life-continuum can resume [its course]. [The mind-consciousness element resulting from akusala kamma, accompanied by neutral feeling] ... [unlike the two resulting from kusala] it takes place with [very] undesiderable and moderately undesiderable objects. ... - As registering powerful objects [undesiderable objects are also powerful ones, and they are registered, remembered] through any of the six doors. #101850 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:03 am Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta sprlrt Hi Lukas, > > 9.Upanissayapaccayoti – purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m abyaakataana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. > > Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m abyaakataana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. > > Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m abyaakataana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo . Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. > > Utubhojanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Puggalopi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Senaasanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. > > ---- > > I leave it like that. As I understand purima - past and pacchimaana - latest or present(?) > > It goes like that: > "past kusala dhamma condition present kusala dhamma by the way of upanisayapaccaya. And so on. > > I've got a question. How do u understand this: > > Utubhojanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Puggalopi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Senaasanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. > > I think it's: > temperature and food is conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. The personality is conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. Lodging is conditioned by upanissayopaccayo. > this is a paccaya, a condition; previous, in this case, conditioning dhammas, this is a paccayuppanna ('arisen by conditions', pàli for 'present' is paccuppanna) dhamma, a later conditioned sankhara/paramattha dhamma(s) in this case, i.e. it arises and falls away, concepts don't actually arise, they can't be conditioned dhammas, paccayuppanna. this is the name of a condition, of a paccaya 'The enviromnent and the food', 'People', 'Lodgings' (temperature, as maha-bhuta rùpa, would be tejo) these are paññatti/concepts, conditioning dhammas are also a condition as pakatùpanissaya paccaya (and as àrammana paccaya as well but not as others). I'm also reposting my translation of the patthàna's upanissayapaccaya, with some corrections/changes. Alberto #101851 From: "sprlrt" Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 11:07 am Subject: Pth. - Upanissayapaccaya sprlrt Patthàna ... 2. Concise exposition of conditions ...…_______________________ Strong dependence condition Kusala dhammas [arisen] (much) earlier are a condition, as strong dependence condition, for kusala / some akusala / abyàkata dhammas [arising] (much) later. Akusala dhammas [arisen] (much) earlier are a condition, as strong dependence condition, for akusala / some kusala / abyàkata dhammas [arising] (much) later. Abyàkata dhammas [arisen] (much) earlier are a condition, as strong dependence condition, for abyàkata / kusala / akusala dhammas [arising] (much) later. [These three triplets deal with paramattha dhammas, kusala, akusala and abyàkata (vipàka, kiriya and rùpa, conditioned/sankhara dhammas, and nibbàna, the unconditioned/asankhata dhamma), in all their combinations] The environment and food / People / Dwellings are also a condition, as strong dependence condition. [The last triplet of upanissaya paccaya deals with the four major paññatti/concepts, conditioning factors causing results, but not conditioned/sankhara dhammas themselves, since they don't arise (sañña khandha just marks them and then recollects them, by conditions, inc. pakatùpanissaya). ... ___________________________ 7. Paññvaro - 1. Paccayànulomam - 1. Vibhangavàro .... Strong dependence condition ... An abyàkata [neither kusala nor akusala] dhamma is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for [another] abyàkata dhamma (strong dependence on object / on proximity / on habits) ... Strong dependence on habits A pleasant bodily feeling / An unpleasant bodily feeling [arising with a kusala / akusala resultants body-consciousness ] is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for [both] a pleasant and an unpleasant bodily feeling, and for phalasamàpatti. The environment / Foodstuff / Dwelling is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for [both] pleasant and unpleasant bodily feeling, and for the fruit [vipàka] of a [jhàna] attainment. ... A [jhàna] attainment is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for pleasant bodily feeling. Strongly depending on a pleasant bodily feeling / an unpleasant bodily feeling / the environment / food / dwellings An unarisen functional [of an arahant, jhàna] attainment arises, [once] arisen is established, and the anicca, dukkha, and anatta nature of a sankhara dhamma is directly experienced [the 4 great functional cittas associated with understanding of an arahant]. __________________ An abyàkata dhammas is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for a kusala dhamma (strong dependence on object / on proximity / on habits) ... Strong dependence on habits Strongly depending on a pleasant bodily feeling / an unpleasant bodily feeling / the environment / food / dwellings one offers dana. / complies to sila. / observes the precepts. / attains jhana. / attains vipassana. / attains the path. / attains abhiñña. / attains samàpatti. A pleasant bodily feeling / A painful bodily feeling /The environment / Foodstuff / Dwelling is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for confidence in kusala, for sìla, for hearing-studying, for detachment, and for pañña. _____________________ An abyàkata dhammas is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for an akusala dhamma (strong dependence on object / on proximity / on habits) ... Strong dependence on habits Strongly depending on a pleasant bodily feeling, / an unpleasant bodily feeling, / the environment, / food, / dwellings, one injures or kills. / steals. / slanders. / abuses. / deceives or reviles. / breaks into another's house. / robs. / gets drunk or intoxicated. / seduces another's wife or husband. / plunders a village or a market. / takes the life of one's own mother. / takes the life of one's own father. / takes the life of an arahant. / injures a tathagata intentionally. / splits the sangha. A pleasant bodily feeling / An unpleasant bodily feeling / The environment / Food / Dwelling is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for lust, for dosa, for moha, for mana, for ditthi, and for attachment. _______________________ b) A kusala dhamma is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for some akusala dhammas Pakatupanissaya - strong dependence on habits Strongly dependeding on saddha, confidence in kusala, / sìla, / suta, hearing-studying, / càga, detachment, / paññà, one recites [the Dhamma] with conceit, and adheres to wrong views. Confidence in kusala / Sìla / Hearing and considering the Dhamma / Generosity / Paññà is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for lust. / aversion. / delusion. / conceit. / wrong views. / attachment. ______________________ c) ... ... e) An akusala dhamma is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for some kusala dhammas Pakatupanissaya - strong dependence on habits Strongly dependening on lust / aversion / delusion / conceit / wrong view, one offers dana, complies to sila, observes the precepts, attains a jhàna, attains vipassana, attains a path, attains an abhiñña, and attains samàpatti. Lust / Aversion / Delusion / Conceit / Wrong view / Attachment is a condition, as strong dependence condition, for confidence in kusala / sìla / hearing-studying / detachment / for understanding. Having injured or killed a living being, / taken what wasn't given, / slandered, / insulted, / talked vainly, / broken into another's house, / stolen, / gotten drunk or intoxicated, / seduced another's wife or husband, / plundered a village or a town, and rejecting that, one offers dana, complies to sila, observes the precepts, attains jhana, attains vipassana, attains the path, attains abhinna, and attains samàpatti. Having taken the life of one's own mother / of one's own father / of an arahant, and rejecting that, one offers dana, complies to sila, and observes the precepts. Having injured a tathagata with a corrupted mind, / divided the sangha, and rejecting that, one offers dana, complies to sila, an observes the precepts. #101852 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 12:51 pm Subject: Re: Pth. - Upanissayapaccaya szmicio Dear Alberto. Thank you very much for this translation. It helps me so much. sadhu sadhu sadhu. Can we all go further with Patthana? Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sprlrt" wrote: #101851 > > #101853 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 12:59 pm Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta szmicio Dear Alberto, > > this is a paccaya, a condition; previous, in this case, conditioning dhammas, > > this is a paccayuppanna ('arisen by conditions', pàli for 'present' is paccuppanna) dhamma, a later conditioned sankhara/paramattha dhamma(s) in this case, > i.e. it arises and falls away, concepts don't actually arise, they can't be conditioned dhammas, paccayuppanna. > > this is the name of a condition, of a paccaya > > > 'The enviromnent and the food', 'People', 'Lodgings' > (temperature, as maha-bhuta rùpa, would be tejo) these are paññatti/concepts, conditioning dhammas > > are also a condition as pakatùpanissaya paccaya (and as àrammana paccaya as well but not as others). L: utu is climate, the weather and temperature around us, isnt it? or it's a concept on weather and temperature, that is a condition to some paccayaupanna dhammas by way of upanissaya paccaya? I am not sure, isnt the climate around us also a ruupa? Best wishes Lukas #101854 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - In a message dated 11/2/2009 4:09:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Alex (& Howard), --- On Sat, 31/10/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Visual consciousness is functional meeting of working eye-sense organ with appropriate visual sense object. ... S: In other words, with visual sense object and eye-sense base as essential conditions, visual consciousness may arise and experience that visual ob ject. .... >The external sense objects are there, whether cognized or not. ... S: Yes, yes, yes! Would you now explain this to Howard? TIA, lol! ------------------------------------------------ Oh, I need no explanation of your beliefs! ;-) ---------------------------------------------- Metta Sarah =============================== With metta, Howard Emptiness of Consciousness /"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) #101855 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 1:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta nilovg Hi Howard, Op 2-nov-2009, om 14:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't > construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He > doesn't > construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. > "When hearing... > "When sensing... > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an > [object as] > cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an > [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ > (From the Kalaka Sutta) -------- N: Sarah found our discussion about this sutta a few years ago. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46975 I just quote the end. You prefer Dr. Wayman to the ancient commentary while I do not. This sutta deals with clinging with tanhaa, di.t.thi and maana. I don't see exclusiveness of view as being the issue here, but rather the > matter of having a view that goes beyond what is directly experienced. > --------------------------------------------- N: That is beyond the proliferations of the average folk. Not beyond what is directly experienced, the Truth is to be directly experienced. He experiences according to the Truth. ----------- H: idameva sacca.m, moghama~n~nan…ti). > This is dogmatism which is classified as one of the four bodily ties > (kaayaganthas). > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, that's fine - certainly an important point made by the Buddha, but > not here as I see it. > -------------------------------------- N: Said by the Co. > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, yes - but nothing to do with this particular sutta. > ------------------------------------------ N: See above. > ------- > Howard: > I see Dr. Wayman's analysis as more to the point. > ---------------------------------------- N: I see the Co analysis as more in accordance with the text of not only this sutta but of the whole of the Tipitaka.> --------- Nina. #101856 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:46 am Subject: The Inseparability of Knowing and Known upasaka_howard Hi, all - Another sutta including the same lesson as the Kalaka Sutta, namely the inseparability of knowing and known, is the Nalakalapiyo Sutta, as shown at the end. With metta, Howard /"Just now, friend Sariputta, I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that name-&-form is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form' But then I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously.' However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Now how is the meaning of these statements to be understood?" "Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form." / (From the Nalakalapiyo Sutta) #101857 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 1:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] names/label nilovg Dear Staisha, Op 2-nov-2009, om 4:31 heeft Staisha Perry het volgende geschreven: > how does one let go of names & labels? Internally ------- N: allow me to answer you on line, since your remarks are of interest to others as well. Names can be useful, representing realities and helping us to understand realities. We can learn to see the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts but we should also know that thinking of concepts is a reality, there are conditions for its arising. There is no point in trying to let go of concepts. Whatever has conditions to arise arises and more understanding of whatever object presents itself can be developed. We should not select any object. It is not wrong to think of concepts, also the Buddha thought of Saariputta and the other disciples. He explained the teachings also by way of conventional terms. Nina. #101858 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 8:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - I have no idea when these discussions occurred.,I don't know who Dr. Wayman is or was, and my perspective now may be the same or quite different. Please rely now on what I'm sayiing now. "Howard" is in flux, not static! ;-)) With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/2/2009 8:43:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: -------- N: Sarah found our discussion about this sutta a few years ago. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46975 #101859 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 3:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >Visual consciousness is functional meeting of working eye-sense organ with appropriate visual sense object. > >The external sense objects are there, whether cognized or not. > k: Then where is blue, in the meeting of the visual objects with eye-sense organ or blue is in external objects? Then is seeing the function of eye consciouness, or not? If it is the function of eye consciousness, could we said eye consciouness does not exist. Cheers Ken O #101860 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 3:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. ashkenn2k Dear Sarah Yes you are right, ok next time I will be concise :-). also I remember you ask me a question whether the 1st formless jhanas which take space is a concept, yes you are right. I still do not have come across any text on why space is classified as "unconditioned". I find this subject fascinating I also find another subject fasicinating, the mind door process succeed the sense door process. I also did not see that in the text, could you point to me which text pse. Thanks Cheers Ken O #101861 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 4:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta ashkenn2k Dear Herman it is interesting talking to you because you do not hold any assumptions. When you experience a blue, what experience it. If you said it is conditoins that experiences it, what is the cause of these conditions. If there is no external or internal, why did Buddha say eye objects and eye consciousness, in numerous suttas. Is not eye object and eye consciouness are condtions. Yes conceiving of oneself is the root of the problem. That does not mean we could not deconstruct it. Just like in the DO, it is properly deconstruct for the understanding on how conditions depend on each other. Just like the aggregates, the elements, they are descontructing the premises we have about there is oneself. Could we say there is no experience of seeing? If there is no experience in seeing, then what see? Cheers Ken O #101862 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 4:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. ashkenn2k Dear Freawaru80 You must ask Buddha this question, because he is the one who say there is seeing consciouness :-). He is not concern whether seeing is primal or not, he is more concern whether we understand that seeing is impermanent, painful and there is no self in seeing. Isnt expecting a rebirth to be a deva is motivated by greed? When clinging arise, becoming arise, birth, ageing death arise. We go round in the cycle of birth and death again. No escape as explain in DO. Cheers Ken O #101863 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ashkenn2k Dear Howard "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't > construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He > doesn't > construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. > "When hearing... > "When sensing... > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an > [object as] > cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an > [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ > (From the Kalaka Sutta) KO: when seeing what is to be seen is the same as seeing [visible objects] and seeing consciounesss. doesnt construe an [object as] seen - simply saying that there is no self in seeing. There are four wrong views, seeing self in an object is one wrong view. He doesn't construne an unseen and doesn't construe an [object] to be seen - means not in the annihilistic or eternal point of view. He doesn't construe a seer - anatta. There is separation of knowing and known in seeing and seeing conscousness, one is visible object the other is mental. Similiar in the DO name and form is mental and material, the five aggregates, they support each other but there are different. Rupa cannot known, only citta can known. If there is no separation, how do we know what experience (the knowing) and what do not experience (the known). Also they are separable because if they are not then we should question the existence of immaterial plane. Cheers Ken O #101864 From: Ken O Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 4:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta ashkenn2k Dear Sarah I am amaze that you could remember messages which are years ago. Do you have a computer inside and a good search mental engine like google? You sounds like Ananda who could remember Buddha suttas. Cheers Ken O #101865 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/2/2009 11:54:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard "Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't > construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He > doesn't > construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. > "When hearing... > "When sensing... > "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an > [object as] > cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an > [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ > (From the Kalaka Sutta) KO: when seeing what is to be seen is the same as seeing [visible objects] and seeing consciounesss. doesnt construe an [object as] seen - simply saying that there is no self in seeing. ---------------------------------------------- That's not so, Ken. The sentence 'He doesn't construe a seer' is what says that. ----------------------------------------------------- There are four wrong views, seeing self in an object is one wrong view. He doesn't construne an unseen and doesn't construe an [object] to be seen - means not in the annihilistic or eternal point of view. He doesn't construe a seer - anatta. There is separation of knowing and known in seeing and seeing conscousness, one is visible object the other is mental. ---------------------------------------------- There is distinction but not separation. See the Nalakalapiyo Sutta in that regard. --------------------------------------------- Similar in the DO name and form is mental and material, the five aggregates, they support each other but there are different. -------------------------------------------- I did not and do not claim identity of these. --------------------------------------------- Rupa cannot known, only citta can known. If there is no separation, how do we know what experience (the knowing) and what do not experience (the known). Also they are separable because if they are not then we should question the existence of immaterial plane. --------------------------------------------- Please reread what I wrote about 'insepable'. It does NOT mean "indistinguishable." The meaning is that one does not exist/arise/appear without the other. (Like conjoined twins.) -------------------------------------------- Cheers Ken O =========================== With metta, Howard Inseparability of Consciousness and It's Object /"Just now, friend Sariputta, I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that name-&-form is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form' But then I understood your statement as, 'It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously.' However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' Now how is the meaning of these statements to be understood?" "Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form." / (From the Nalakalapiyo Sutta) #101866 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 7:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known nilovg Hi Howard, Op 2-nov-2009, om 14:46 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It is as if two sheaves > of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same > way, from > name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from > consciousness > as a requisite condition comes name-&-form." / ------ N: THis is part of the Dependent Origination. Visuddhimagga Ch XVII we studied with Larry, gives an extensive explanation of each term. Text Vis.187: 1. 'By analysis of mind and matter': here 'mind' (naama--mentality) is the three aggregates, that is, feeling, perception, and formations, because of their bending (namana) on to the object. --------- N: Here naama refers to the cetasikas that can accompany vi~n~naa.na. The Tiika explains that vi~n~naa.na also is naama, but in not mixing the conditioning dhammas and conditioned dhammas he speaks here of naama as the three khandhas which are facing an object. -------- Vi~n~naa.na is here vipaakacitta. Kamma produces at rebirth vi~n~naa.n and also ruupas. Naama in this context are the accompanying cetasikas. Vi~n~naa.na and the accompanyimng cetasikas condition one another. At rebirth the ruupa that is heartbase and the rebirth-consciousness condition one another. We have to be careful what types of condition come into play. See Ven. Bodhi 'The Great Discourse on Causation'. p. 87: We have to study the many different types of conditions and I do not find this sutta indicating that nama and rupa, though distinguishable, are inseparable, as you say. We have to specify: which cetasikas and which rupas condition which consciousness. Nina. #101867 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > >Visual consciousness is functional meeting of working eye-sense organ with appropriate visual sense object. > > > >The external sense objects are there, whether cognized or not. > > > > k: Then where is blue, in the meeting of the visual objects with eye-sense organ or blue is in external objects? Then is seeing the function of eye consciouness, or not? If it is the function of eye consciousness, could we said eye consciouness does not exist. > > Cheers > Ken O > Dear Ken O, Nina and all, The question is improperly states as "where is blue" or "where is consciousness". According to Mn148 only 12 ayatanas can be divided into internal/external. Notice that consciousness, contact, feeling, etc are not stated to be internal or external. Consciousness is not a material reality, it has no spatial location. It is functional interaction between internal & external factors. With metta, Alex #101868 From: "colette" Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 7:20 pm Subject: Question ksheri3 Hi Group, Does anybody know the : Ven. Jimpa Kongchog? toodles, colette #101869 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Nov 2, 2009 10:31 pm Subject: The 8 Understandings... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Purification by Knowing and Seeing the Way! Purification by knowledge & vision of the way comes by 8 understandings: 1: Understanding the momentary rise and fall of all states whatsoever. 2: Understanding the unavoidable dissolution of all phenomena whatsoever. 3: Understanding that appearance is terror, since it always entails suffering. 4: Understanding the danger inherent in clinging to things bound to vanish. 5: Understanding disillusion and dispassion as good signs of reduced greed. 6: Understanding of the deep desire for deliverance from the rebirth round. 7: Understanding of contemplating reflexion as a crucial tool for release. 8: Understanding of equanimity regarding all formations and constructions. Vism 639 <..> Have a nice understanding day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #101870 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. egberdina Hi Jon, 2009/11/1 jonoabb > Hi Herman (and freawaru) > > (101802) > > What is being tossed around is that it is a citta that arises and ceases. > > That is no different to say, a being arising and ceasing, or a person, or > a > > soul, is it? That is just annihilationism. > > =============== > > It depends of course on your definition of "annihilationism" ;-)). > > To my understanding, the assertion that whatever arises by conditions must > fall away when those conditions no longer pertain is not an instance of > annihilationism. > I would agree with you here unhesitatingly. > > > =============== > > Thoughts of the arising and ceasing of discrete > > entities are not in line with DO (or anicca for that matter). > > =============== > > It depends of course on your definition of "discrete entities" ;-)) > A thing that is absolutely itself, like say, a paramattha dhamma with it's own essential nature, of the later Theravadan commentaries. > Those who understand the teachings in terms of cittas as momentary arisings > and falling away do not necessarily conceive of cittas as "discrete > entities". > > I'm glad to hear it :-) > Regardless of our individual interpretation of the teachings, we all > continue to conceive of the world as a world of people and things, and that > is not the way things are in truth and reality according to the teachings. > > Cheers Herman #101871 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. kenhowardau Hi Sarah, ----- S: > <. . . > but he's been slacking recently....(and what's happened to that diary entry??) ----- Sorry, Sarah, I have no excuses, just laziness. Whenever I think about the realities of the present moment - as I do several times every day - I realise the importance of Dhamma discussion. I see clearly that I shouldn't be just thinking about paramattha dhammas, I should be discussing them at DSG. Right understanding and Dhamma discussion are inseparable. So why am I so lazy? How weak must my right-understanding be! At least now I am contributing this snippet, which is better than nothing. :-) Ken H PS: My mother is staying with us for the next three days, so I might be a bit busy. #101872 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 3, no 8. egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/11/2 Nina van Gorkom > Dear friends, > > It is difficult to understand and accept that whatever arises does so > because of its own conditions and that it is beyond control. Yes, it's true. > People > generally want to control their lives, to take their destinies in > their own hands. It can, however, even on the theoretical level, be > understood that it is impossible to control one’s life. Yes, that is true. And so it will be understood that the desire for control is also conditioned. > One cannot > control one’s body, one cannot control the different moments of > consciousness which arise. And so too, one cannot control the desire to control. Cheers Herman #101873 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:42 am Subject: Question: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. nos 6 & 7. hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: We read in the “Expositor†(I, Introductory Discourse, 22) about the threefold training and the three levels of defilements: “In the Vinaya-Pitaka the riddance of transgression due to the corruptions is meant, because morality is opposed to transgressions (vítikkama kilesa); in the Suttanta-Pitaka the riddance of the tyranny of the corruptions (defilements one is possessed by and that arise) is meant, because concentration of thought is inimical to such tyranny (pariyutthÃ¥na kilesa ); in the Abhidhamma-Piìaka the riddance of latent bias (anusaya kilesa) is meant, because understanding is opposed to it. In the first Pitaka there is a temporary riddance of the corruptions (by means of various factors of morality); in the others their riddance is of the nature of discarding and extirping by the Path. In the first Piìaka the riddance is of the corruption of misconduct; in the others it is (respectively) of the corruption of craving and wrong views...†http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101645 > Nina; With regard to the abandoning of the corruptions which occur through bodily misconduct or verbal misconduct it is explained that the corruption of craving (tanhÃ¥) is taught in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to sensuous desire (kÃ¥machandha). It is explained that the corruption of wrong view (ditthi) is taught in the Abhidhamma, because of the disclosure and explanation of the dhammas which each have their own characteristic (sabhÃ¥va dhammas) and are devoid of self and so on.†http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101840 ------------------------------ Question: Why was it necessary to make a distinction between the teachings of Vinaya Pitaka, Suttanta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka with regard to the latent tendencies and the three levels of kilesas? For example, cannot one find all these in Suttanta Pitaka alone, or in Abhidhamma Pitaka alone? Respectfully, Han #101874 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Third kind of nibbana element and cessation egberdina Hello pt, 2009/10/30 ptaus1 > Hi all, > > 1. Usually it's said there are two kinds of nibbana element (from post > #8487): > > "In 'As it was said' ('ltivuttaka', Ch. II, par. 7, 'Khuddaka Nikaya') > two 'conditions of nibbana' (dhatu, which literally means element) are > explained. Sa-upadi-sesa nibbana is nibbana with the five khandhas still > remaining. For the arahat Do you believe that an arahat is an arahat for himself? Does the thought "I am an arahat" arise in an arahat? > who has not finally passed away yet, there are still citta, cetasika and > rupa arising and falling away, although he has eradicated all defilements. > An-upadi-sesa nibbana is nibbana without the khandhas remaining. For the > arahat who has finally passed away, there are no longer citta, cetasika and > rupa arising and falling away." > How is the passing of an arahat known? Does it make sense to even talk about it? Cheers Herman #101875 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 1:28 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (64) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- The characteristics of ruupa are taught in a conventional sense in order to help people to have more understanding of these characteristics of ruupa which denote the arising, the continuity, the decay and the falling away. The teaching was adapted to the capabilities to understand of different people. The "Atthasaalinii" ((II, Book II, Part I, Ch II, 327) explains in a wider sense, by way of conventional terms, the origination of ruupa at the first moment of life and the continuity of ruupa as the subsequent arising of ruupa. Throughout our life there is continuity in the production of ruupa. We read about continuity: "Continuity has the characteristic of continuous occurrence, the function of linking or binding without a break, unbroken series as manifestation, matter bound up without a break as proximate cause." This definition of continuity in a more general sense reminds us that the seeming permanence of the body is merely due to the continuous production of new ruupas replacing the ones that have fallen away. ------------------------------ Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas (to be continued) with metta, Han #101876 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 2:09 am Subject: Observation: Physical Phenomena (63) and (64) hantun1 Dear Nina, There are four characteristics common to all sabhaava ruupas. (1) arising or origination (upacaya) (2) continuity or development (santati) (3) decay or ageing (jarataa) (4) falling away or impermanence (aniccataa) I have presented so far the first two characteristics from your book. I have also referred to Visuddhimagga XIV.66 for these two characteristics. Growth of matter has the characteristic of setting up. Its function is to make material instances emerge in the first instance. It is manifested as launching; or it is manifested as the complete state. Its proximate cause is grown matter. Aacaya-lakkha.no ruupassa upacayo, pubbantato ruupana.m ummujjaapana-raso, niyyaatana-paccupa,t,thaano, paripu.n.nabhaava-paccupa,t,thaano vaa, upacitaruupa-pada.t.thaano. Continuity of matter has the characteristic of occurrence. Its function is to anchor. It is manifested as non-interruption. Its proximate cause is matter that is to be anchored. Its proximate cause is matter that is to be anchored. Pavatti-lakkha.naa ruupassa santati, anuppabandhana-rasa, anupaccheda-paccupa.t.thaanaa, anuppabandhaka ruupa-pada.t.thaanaa. ------------------------------ The interesting point is the explanation of these two characteristics. According to the explanations in the Atthasaalinii and the Visuddhimagga, the arising or origination (upacaya) is the arising of ruupas at the first moment of life, or the initial arising; whereas, the continuity or development (santati) is the subsequent production and arising of the groups of ruupa throughout our life. Dr. Mehm Tin Mon, in his book, The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma, wrote: < Upacaya and santati are sometimes treated as jaati (birth). Then the number of ruupas amounts to 27 instead of 28. Strictly speaking, there are only three lakkha.na-ruupas, namely, jaati, jarataa and aniccataa. Jaati refers to ruupa at the arising instant, jarataa refers to ruupa at the existing period, and aniccataa refers to ruupa at the dissolving instant.> This is just my observation. Respectfully, Han #101877 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 3:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anger management philofillet Dear Han Thank you for the following very useful post! You have always been so helpful for me in developing sila. Someday when conditions lead my interest to subtler,more rarefied topics, your posts on those topics will also be helpful, I'm sure. Metta, Phil p.s Jon and Sarah, sorry as always for ignoring your posts. That is just where I am at now, "grooving along" with the Dhamma as I see it, as I wrote to Sarah off-list recently. A day for more careful consideration of other viewpoints will come, I'm quite sure. But for now the Dhamma is simple. Not easy, observance of moral precepts is never easy, but it is quite simple, if you know what I mean! :) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Phil and Sarah (Nina and Lukas), > > After I had posted my message #101592 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101592 > > I find Phil's message #101617 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101617 > > and Sarah's message #101631 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101631 > > very useful. I very much appreciate both the messages. > > -------------------- > > Phil wrote: "So Han, and Lukas, I think the preventive aspect of anger management is as important as the relief/assuaging aspect. There are never any guarantees, of course. But the frequency of transgression rooted in anger can be dramatically reduced to the point that such occurences are beautifully rare. I speak from experience." > > I fully agree with the importance of the preventive aspect of anger management. An ideal situation will be to combine the two, i.e., to prevent the arising of anger, and the to subdue the anger that has arisen. > > -------------------- > > Han: However, as far as I am concerned, I find it more difficult to prevent the arising of anger than to subdue the anger that has arisen. > Why so? Because: > > (1) I most probably am the one with a mind like an open sore (aruukuupamacitto puggala) as mentioned in AN.III.25 Vajiruupama sutta, which Phil had quoted. > [aruka-uupama-citto (adj.) having a heart like a sore (of a man in anger): PTS Dictionary] > > (2) I have still a lot of pa.tighaanusaya (latent tendencies for aversion). > > Therefore, my immediate concern is to subdue the anger that has arisen and to contain it at the level of pariyu.t.thaana (prepossession) kilesa, and not to let it go over to the level of vú`ikkama (transgression, misconduct) kilesa. If I can do that I will be more than happy. > > -------------------- > > Han: To subdue the anger that has arisen, I follow the instructions given in the following two suttas: > > AN 5.161 Aghatavinaya Sutta: Subduing Hatred (1) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.161.than.html > > AN 5.162 Aghatavinaya Sutta: Subduing Hatred (2) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.162.than.html > > with metta and respect, > Han > #101878 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Third kind of nibbana element and cessation ptaus1 Hi Herman, Thanks for your interest. > Do you believe that an arahat is an arahat for himself? Does the thought "I > am an arahat" arise in an arahat? > How is the passing of an arahat known? Does it make sense to even talk about > it? I don't know the answers to these questions, I'm just a beginner, so I'm mostly just interested in learning first what's the classical theravada position (sutta, abhidhamma and commentaries) on the issues that interest me. Best wishes pt #101879 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 4:18 am Subject: Wisdom shines forth in behaviour [dsg] Re: Anger management philofillet Hi again all (especially Lukas, with affection.) I would just like to leave you with the sutta passage that I use for my signature at another forum: Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti (The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.) (AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta) Ph: Now you will want to say that this is all about javana cittas, and whether they have met the rarefied definition of kusala prescribed by Abhidhamma. And perhaps there is a commentary that says so, I don't know. Since there is apparently a commentary that says it is paramattha dhammas that "grow old, sick and die, and are separated from the beloved" to explain the daily recollection on aging and death, I imagine there might be commentaries that seek to put each and every sutta in paramattha terms. But there is an important degree of wisdom that is all about people doing certain actions of body, speech and mind in certain non-harmful, helpful ways. In conventional ways. And that degree of wisdom is to be appreciated. Terribly wasteful of the Buddha's teaching if it isn't. OK, that's all... Metta, Phil p.s and for the clearest and simplest guidance on behaving in a morally sound way, please reflect on MN 61 as often as possible before during and after acting. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html The more you reflect on this sutta, intentionally, every morning, the more you (dhammas, of course) will carry out the reflection during the day. That's the way conditions work. Intentional, self-interested actions condition habitual, uncontrolled actions. It's beautiful the way the BUddha's teaching guides "us" to eventually behave habitually in ways that help to lead to an end of self-rooted needs. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philofillet" wrote: #101877 > > > > #101880 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Third kind of nibbana element and cessation ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. > >However, there's this interesting passage from Nyanatiloka' s dictionary entry on Gotama http://palikanon. com/english/ pali_names/ g/gotama. htm: > "It is said (E.g., DA.iii.899) that just before the Buddha's Saasana disappears completely from the world, all the relics will gather together at the Mahaacetiya, and travelling from there to Naagad?pa and the Ratanacetiya, assemble at the Mahaabodhi, together with the relics from other parts. There they will reform the Buddha's golden hued body, emitting the six-coloured aura. The body will then catch fire and completely disappear, amid the lamentations of the ten thousand world-systems. " > > >How is this passage explained in terms of abhidhamma, as it seems to imply that not all khandas cease for a Buddha while his sasana lasts? > .... > S: Like with the remains of any dead person, rupas can arise and fall away, conditioned by temperature for a shorter or longer period. Think of Egyptian tombs! > These rupas are no longer conditioned by kamma and are like any other rupas outside the body. pt: So you read this passage just like when nowadays people for example excavate a mummy, and then restore it, and then parade it through different museum exhibitions and then it accidentally burns in a fire, etc? On my reading it seems much more "magical" than saying it's just dead matter (I mean the assembling in one place, reforming the Buddha's golden hued body, aura, lamentation, etc, seems like there's much more going on). Anyway, DA iii. 899 would stand for a passage in Digha atthakatha, right? If that's so, then I could probably look it up in a sub-commentary (once I learn Pali that is). > >So, is there nibbana during cessation or not? Thanks. > > S: No, exactly as Swee Boon explains. Sometimes people get nirodha samapatti confused with phala samapatti. > > In nirodha samapatti (for anagamis and arahats only), no cittas arise, so nibbana cannot be experienced. There are just rupas arising and falling away, including jivitindriya rupa. > > In phala samapatti, for those who attained any level of enlightenment based on jhanas, the phala cittas (of that level) may arise again with nibbana as object. pt: Thanks for the explanation. In that case, how is parinibbana different from nirodha samapatti (disregarding rupa aggregate)? As I understand it, in both cases there are no more nama aggregates that can take up nibbana as dhamma arammana anymore, right? So, basically, nibbana can be experienced only from stream-entry to parinibbana, right? Thanks. Best wishes pt #101881 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 6:20 am Subject: Wisdom shines forth in behaviour [dsg] Re: Anger management szmicio Dear Phil, thank you for your very helpful reminder and wonderful Sutta. > Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti > (The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.) > (AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta) L: For sure, a fool that commits unwholsome deeds is not wise at that particualar moment. I can say about myself, a fool ;> > Ph: Now you will want to say that this is all about javana cittas, and whether they have met the rarefied definition of kusala prescribed by Abhidhamma. And perhaps there is a commentary that says so, I don't know. Since there is apparently a commentary that says it is paramattha dhammas that "grow old, sick and die, and are separated from the beloved" to explain the daily recollection on aging and death, I imagine there might be commentaries that seek to put each and every sutta in paramattha terms. L: we are still talking on cetasikas. And the meaning is that it 'supports in experiencing'. This characteristic can be know. This is very beneficial, Phil, the distnction on citta, cetasika, ruupa. This is very subtle, cetasika in such moments can know viratti cetasikas that refrains from bad deeds. And there is the function of 'supporting the characteristic of experience the object' all the time. This is not against siila, it should help siila. As I consider it. I appreciate that you can do your own seclusions from the world, dsg etc. This can be parami of nekkhama. It supports me, but I cant do it myself. very hard. Of course you should read, and if you consider DSG not helpful, you can read off-line. Best wishes Lukas #101882 From: "sprlrt" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 6:53 am Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta sprlrt Hi Lukas, L: utu is climate, the weather and temperature around us, isnt it? or it's a concept on weather and temperature, that is a condition to some paccayaupanna dhammas by way of upanissaya paccaya? I am not sure, isnt the climate around us also a ruupa? None of the 28 rùpas can be pakatùpanissaya paccaya, they are the paccanika of that paccaya (see K. Sujin 'Summary of the 24 paccayas'). What we conventionally call 'a person' (and any living being) is actually only the five khandhas: rùpa, sañña, vedana, and viñññana khandha. What we conventionally call 'the environment' (climate, plants etc.) is actually one khandha only, rùpa khandha. These are not rùpa or any other actual khandha but mere concepts/conventions, which are one of the conditions, as pakatùpanissaya paccaya, strong dependence on habits, (but not as anantara and àrammanupanissaya), for the arising of (javana cittas accompanied by) pleasant or unpleasant feelings and for others paccayuppanna as well. Alberto #101883 From: Herman Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/11/2 sarah abbott > Hi Herman, > > --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Herman wrote: > >> S: At this moment is there seeing? Or hearing? Or thinking, regardless > of > > any analysis of thinking about them? > > > > > H:> Seeing, hearing, thinking occur in a loose manner of speaking, but if > we want to be precise then there is always only the seen object, there is > never just seeing. > ... > S: No one has ever suggested here that there is seeing without a visual > object which is seen. Good :-) > However, the characteristics of seeing and visual object are very different > - the first experiences its object, the second does not experience anything. > I am not avoiding your final question, but I want to clarify something first. A characteristic is something that is known or experienced, right? But you have introduced a negative here as being characteristic of something real, and I think that will be very important in coming to understand the differences in what we are saying to each other. The negative you have introduced is not-experiencing, or non-experience. Visible object, you say for example, has the characteristic of not knowing [anything]. I do not want to put words in your mouth, but you appear to be saying that not-knowing can be known as a characteristic. Have I got that right? Cheers Herman #101884 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 7:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anger management hantun1 Dear Phil, Phil: Thank you for the following very useful post! You have always been so helpful for me in developing sila. Someday when conditions lead my interest to subtler, more rarefied topics, your posts on those topics will also be helpful, I'm sure. -------------------- Han: I am sure your siila will get stronger and stronger. During my younger days, I have lived quite recklessly. Now I give a very high priority to siila. The reason can be two-fold. (1) I observe siila because I am afraid of bad vipaaka results of breaking the precepts. For example, "Monks, the taking of life, when indulged in, developed, and pursued, is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from the taking of life is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to a short life span." AN 8.40 Vipaka Sutta: Results http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.040.than.html -------------------- (2) I observe siila because I want to give others the great gifts (mahaa daana), and obtain good results for myself as well. For example, "There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger (abhaya.m deti), freedom from animosity (aveya.m deti), freedom from oppression (abyaabajjha.m deti) to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the first gift, the first great gift, original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning, that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives and priests. And this is the fourth reward of merit, reward of skillfulness, nourishment of happiness, celestial, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable, pleasurable, and appealing; to welfare and to happiness (hitaaya sukhaaya sa.mvattati)." AN 8.39 Abhisanda Sutta: Rewards http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.039.than.html Yours sincerely, Han #101885 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 8:03 am Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta szmicio Dear Alberto, It makes sense ;> That was how I actually hope to see it. My previous life conditions are very according to what you wrote. Concepts can condition different cittas. I like also your previous statement: concepts do not arise. very helpful. thanks Lukas p.s Again I read more. thanks to you I start to read Nina's conditions. I was wondering if you could post a pali version of your last translation of patthana? It could be helpful to see also pali words. > L: utu is climate, the weather and temperature around us, isnt it? > or it's a concept on weather and temperature, that is a condition to some paccayaupanna dhammas by way of upanissaya paccaya? > I am not sure, isnt the climate around us also a ruupa? > > None of the 28 rùpas can be pakatùpanissaya paccaya, they are the paccanika of that paccaya (see K. Sujin 'Summary of the 24 paccayas'). > What we conventionally call 'a person' (and any living being) is actually only the five khandhas: rùpa, sañña, vedana, and viñññana khandha. > What we conventionally call 'the environment' (climate, plants etc.) is actually one khandha only, rùpa khandha. > These are not rùpa or any other actual khandha but mere concepts/conventions, which are one of the conditions, as pakatùpanissaya paccaya, strong dependence on habits, (but not as anantara and àrammanupanissaya), for the arising of (javana cittas accompanied by) pleasant or unpleasant feelings and for others paccayuppanna as well. > > Alberto > #101886 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment, to Ken H. nilovg Dear Ken H, Op 3-nov-2009, om 1:35 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > PS: My mother is staying with us for the next three days, so I > might be > a bit busy. -------- N: No excuse ;_)) You say that you think of the present moment several times a day, and that is good. Why not jot down that thinking for the benefit of all of us. Are there no present realities while taking care of your mother? No metta, no attachment? Nina. #101887 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Observation: Physical Phenomena (63) and (64) nilovg Dear Han, Op 3-nov-2009, om 3:09 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Dr. Mehm Tin Mon, in his book, The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma, > wrote: > > < Upacaya and santati are sometimes treated as jaati (birth). Then > the number of ruupas amounts to 27 instead of 28. > > Strictly speaking, there are only three lakkha.na-ruupas, namely, > jaati, jarataa and aniccataa. Jaati refers to ruupa at the arising > instant, jarataa refers to ruupa at the existing period, and > aniccataa refers to ruupa at the dissolving instant.> -------- N: The Atthasaalinii also states : 'In the real sense both integration (N: origination) and continuity are synonyms of the production of matter. Yet so as to make clear the difference in the mode of production, he makes the teaching in the Outline as [distinguishing between] integration and continuity.' Such classifications are not rigid, it depends on the different aspects that are shown. That is why M. Tin Mon uses the word 'sometimes'. ------- Nina. #101888 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:41 am Subject: Re: Question: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. nos 6 & 7. nilovg Dear Han, Op 3-nov-2009, om 1:42 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Why was it necessary to make a distinction between the teachings of > Vinaya Pitaka, Suttanta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka with regard to > the latent tendencies and the three levels of kilesas? For example, > cannot one find all these in Suttanta Pitaka alone, or in > Abhidhamma Pitaka alone? ------- N: I quote first: < In the Vinaya he taught the abandoning of the coarse defilements, because morality is opposed to coarse defilements. He taught the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to medium defilements. He taught the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements. > 'In the Vinaya the Buddha taught to the monks good conduct and he established rules to be observed by the monks.' This is an example that is obvious, morality is opposed to coarse defilements. At the same time we should remember that the Vinaya should not be separated from satipa.t.thaana. Through satipa.t.thaana the monk learns that not a self observes the rules and through satipa.t.thaana morality will certainly become firmer. 'He taught the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to medium defilements.' In the suttanta we find that the Buddha explained about the suppressing of the hindrances by means of a subject of concentration. One learns what is kusala citta and what is akusala citta, and how to distinguish between these different moments. If one does not know the difference and keeps on taking akusala for kusala, how can kusala be cultivated? Metta is a subject of samatha but it can and should be developed in daily life. When we take selfish affection for metta, it cannot be cultivated. At the same time we should remember that through satipa.t.thaana different characteristics are learnt of whatever appears. Through satipa.t.thaana one acquires a deeper understanding of the meaning of the suttas, of what is kusala, what is akusala. 'He taught the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements.' Subtle defilements can only be eradicated by lokuttara magga- pa~n~naa. Through the Abhidhamma par excellence we come to understand paramattha dhammas, not only in theory, but through the practice of satipa.t.thaana. This leads eventually to enlightenment, the moment that subtle defilements are eradicated. Thus, the distinction between Vinaya Pitaka, Suttanta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka is made to demonstrate obvious examples. It does not mean that there is no Abhidhamma in the Suttanta or in the Vinaya. And satipa.t.thaana is in all of the teachings. ------- Nina. #101889 From: "freawaru80" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: nama and rupa. was:samaadhi in a wider sense. freawaru80 Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear freawaru, > Op 30-okt-2009, om 20:51 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > > > it seems to me that "seeing" in Abhidhamma refers to the "lower" > > processes of the brain, those in the evolutional old part (reptile > > brain, etc). These are generally unconscious and not accessible by > > the higher functions of the brain, including our personality.... > --------- > N: The lower processes of the brain, that is thinking and in this way > the reality of seeing will not be known. This is an unusual definition for "thinking". Generally, "thinking" is used for the higher processes, an amoeba does not "think". Do reptiles "think"? I was referring to the so-called triune brain model http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triune_brain (I have some doubts regarding some of the details of the theory but the general idea can nicely show what I mean). According to the triune brain model: "In this model, the brain is broken down into three separate brains that have their own special intelligence, subjectivity, sense of time and space, and memory[1]. The triune brain consists of the R-complex, the limbic system, and the neocortex" The important part here (regarding Abhidhamma) is that different parts of our brain work differently regarding sense of time. While the neocortex - responsible for higher-order thinking skills, reason, speech, and sapience - works on a low temporal resolution other parts work much faster. For example, when you read this very fast processes change the pattern of the written words into concepts inside your mind. Can you see them? We usually have no way to be aware of this - why not? Because we are absorbed into our personality and the personality is generated in the neocortex. So to make those faster processes described in Abhidhamma visible to us we need to detach from the slow personality and merge with something that is able to see it. The knower, or the "One who knows", the Arahat power. Obviously, as our human personality is generated not there the absorbtion will appear to us as impersonal. This is the way that the reality of seeing will be known to us. >In the suttas you will > notice that the Buddha speaks time and again of seeing, hearing, etc. > These have to be known as they are, more and more. Yes. By going deeper and deeper, to faster and faster temporal resolutions, by merging with the Impersonal. > We cling to an > idea of 'I see", but the Buddha taught us to develop more > understanding so that anatta, non-self, will be clearly understood. An-atta has several definitions in Buddhism. In the suttas the Buddha usually used the definition or the realization "this is not me, I am not it", a typical Witness realization. > Is there no ordinary seeing, just now? It is reality. Nobody can make > it arise. Ah, of course there can be control. The iddhis give control. Someone with the iddhis can control (for example form) , so it is a bit misleading to say nobody can control. What is correct is that no personality can control. The iddhis are gained by iddhi-pada (http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/iddhi_paada.htm) "Whosoever, o monks, has missed the 4 roads to power (Iddhi-pada), he has missed the right path leading to the extinction of suffering; but whosoever, o monks, has reached the 4 roads to power, he has reached the right path leading to the extinction of suffering" (S. LI, 2)." > It arises because of its own conditions. It arises because of the conditions one intends. That is kamma: intention. But it is not the personality's intention, one has to go down to the "reptile brain" and set them according to one's wishes, program them in the most useful way. > N: Understanding of realities, mental phenomena and physical > phenomena have to be developed stage by stage. In the suttas we read > that the conditions for attaining the state of sotaapanna is > listening, considering, wise attention, practice of the Dhamma in > accordance with the Dhamma. No mentioning of Hatthayoga. Hu ??? I have really no idea where you get this from. The suttas are full of yogic terms, accomplishments and insights, including those of Hatha yoga. Just think about anapanasati. There it is described to "know it is a short breath when it is a short breath and to know it is a long breath when it is a long breath" Typical pranayama exercise. A long breath means a breath that takes about a minute. How should one know a long breath when one never experiences it because one lacks practice in Hatha yoga? Anapanasati cannot be practiced without some basic Hatha yoga. "I. First Tetrad: 1: When making a long inhalation he understands: I make a long inhalation; when making a long exhalation he understands: I make a long exhalation. 2: When making a short inhalation he understands: I make a short inhalation; when making a short exhalation he understands: I make a short exhalation. 3: Clearly perceiving the entire body I will breathe in, thus he trains himself; clearly perceiving the entire breath-body I will breathe out, thus he trains himself. 4: Calming all bodily activity I will breathe in, thus he trains himself; calming all bodily activity I will breathe out, thus he trains himself." http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Buddhist.Dictionary/dic3_a.htm The suttas describe knowing about the inner organs, a knowing that arises after the calming of all bodyly activity, again Hatha yoga. Kaya-sakkhi, the body Witness, is even listed among the sevenfold grouping of the noble disciples ( http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/a/ariya_puggala.htm ) Why do you make such a statement when there is so much evidence to it's opposite? > As to jhaana, for this you have to have accumulated inclination and > skill. Do not underestimate it. Jhana is not as difficult as you think. It was known before the Buddha and it is also know in other religions today, some even experience it without any outer guidance. Just practice concentration, samadhi, and you will stumble into it on your own. In fact I think in this time of schoolarship and computers there are even more people able to get into jhana than at the time of the Buddha: when the culture and society change slowly and most people stoped learning at the age of twelve. Look how it is today, one needs to stay young, one needs to learn new things every day to keep up with the fast changing environment. This eases the way to jhana. Freawaru #101890 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta sarahprocter... Dear Ken O & all, --- On Tue, 3/11/09, Ken O wrote: >I am amaze that you could remember messages which are years ago. Do you have a computer inside and a good search mental engine like google? You sounds like Ananda who could remember Buddha suttas. .... S: lol! It's not like that at all, I assure you. Sometimes I have a vague recollection and that's about it. What I do have, however, is confidence that pretty well any sutta translated by TB has been quoted here on numerous occasions, used in many discussions to prove the Abhidhamma and ancient commentators got it all wrong and that alternative translations and commentary notes have been given in return by one dinosaur or other-- all pointing to the understanding of namas and rupas at this very moment. So in this case, it took me less than 10 secs to go to U.P., check down to "Kalaka", find Nina's old message and post the link. If anyone else wishes to check there anytime, pt gave a helpful post about how to use it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101586 Metta Sarah p.s. Great to see you found some threads of interest, Ken O! ======= #101891 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 10:56 am Subject: Re: Question: Re: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. nos 6 & 7. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. It is all very clear now. Respectfully, Han -------------------- 'In the Vinaya the Buddha taught to the monks good conduct and he established rules to be observed by the monks.' This is an example that is obvious, morality is opposed to coarse defilements. At the same time we should remember that the Vinaya should not be separated from satipa.t.thaana. Through satipa.t.thaana the monk learns that not a self observes the rules and through satipa.t.thaana morality will certainly become firmer. 'He taught the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to medium defilements. ' In the suttanta we find that the Buddha explained about the suppressing of the hindrances by means of a subject of concentration. One learns what is kusala citta and what is akusala citta, and how to distinguish between these different moments. If one does not know the difference and keeps on taking akusala for kusala, how can kusala be cultivated? Metta is a subject of samatha but it can and should be developed in daily life. When we take selfish affection for metta, it cannot be cultivated. At the same time we should remember that through satipa.t.thaana different characteristics are learnt of whatever appears. Through satipa.t.thaana one acquires a deeper understanding of the meaning of the suttas, of what is kusala, what is akusala. 'He taught the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements. ' Subtle defilements can only be eradicated by lokuttara magga-pa~n~naa. Through the Abhidhamma par excellence we come to understand paramattha dhammas, not only in theory, but through the practice of satipa.t.thaana. This leads eventually to enlightenment, the moment that subtle defilements are eradicated. Thus, the distinction between Vinaya Pitaka, Suttanta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka is made to demonstrate obvious examples. It does not mean that there is no Abhidhamma in the Suttanta or in the Vinaya. And satipa.t.thaana is in all of the teachings. ----------------------- #101892 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 11:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anger management sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- On Tue, 3/11/09, philofillet wrote: >p.s Jon and Sarah, sorry as always for ignoring your posts. That is just where I am at now, "grooving along" with the Dhamma as I see it, as I wrote to Sarah off-list recently. A day for more careful consideration of other viewpoints will come, I'm quite sure. But for now the Dhamma is simple. Not easy, observance of moral precepts is never easy, but it is quite simple, if you know what I mean! :) ... S: :-) Ignore our posts and groove along, if conditions permit!! SN 35:111 Fully Understanding " 'Bhikkhus, without directly understanding and fully understanding the eye, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. Without directly knowing and fully understanding the ear...the mind, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. But by directly knowing and fully understanding the eye...the mind, by developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is capable of destroying suffering.' " Metta Sarah ======== #101893 From: "freawaru80" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 12:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. freawaru80 Dear Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Freawaru80 > > You must ask Buddha this question, because he is the one who say there is seeing consciouness :-). He is not concern whether seeing is primal or not, he is more concern whether we understand that seeing is impermanent, painful and there is no self in seeing. Yes, but this understanding is based on experience - not reason. It is a bit hard to still believe in an unchanging personality if one sees it changing, isn't it? Imagine experiencing the iddhi "divine eye" or the iddhi of recalling one's own lifes. One sees there is no one and the same personality throughout the lifes. Or imagine the iddhi of becoming multiple beings and then one again. The whole concept of "I" breaks down. > Isnt expecting a rebirth to be a deva is motivated by greed? I thought that it is pride that leads to a rebirth as a deva. Or is this Mahayana lore? >When clinging arise, becoming arise, birth, ageing death arise. We >go round in the cycle of birth and death again. No escape as >explain in DO." Yes, but what is "clinging" as meant in DO? Freawaru #101894 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 9:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/3/2009 1:56:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: A characteristic is something that is known or experienced, right? But you have introduced a negative here as being characteristic of something real, and I think that will be very important in coming to understand the differences in what we are saying to each other. The negative you have introduced is not-experiencing, or non-experience. Visible object, you say for example, has the characteristic of not knowing [anything]. I do not want to put words in your mouth, but you appear to be saying that not-knowing can be known as a characteristic. ==================================== This raises an interesting general question: Are absences (especially absences of characteristics) conditions? (I'm not asking whether they are "things" - I'm not a "thing guy"!) I believe that absences really are conditions. Absence of defilements surely is (to get "Buddhist" ;-). Absence of food over an extended time surely is. Absence of upset is equanimity, isn't it? Absence of rain has consequences. Absence of attention (also called "inattention") has consequences. There are infinitely many examples of absences that are conditions, even requisite conditions, for various results. Also, often of a condition A and the absence of A it is difficult to say which is the "thing" and which its absence. Attention and inattention come to mind (versus distraction and non-distraction). Also, which is positive and which negative of "moving" and "stationary"? There are better examples, but I'm not searching my internal knowledge base further at the moment. ;-) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101895 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama and rupa. was:samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear freawaru, Op 3-nov-2009, om 11:41 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > According to the triune brain model: "In this model, the brain is > broken down into three separate brains that have their own special > intelligence, subjectivity, sense of time and space, and memory[1]. > The triune brain consists of the R-complex, the limbic system, and > the neocortex" > > The important part here (regarding Abhidhamma) is that different > parts of our brain work differently regarding sense of time. ------- N:Brain, model,etc. are concepts, not paramattha dhammas as taught in the Abhidhamma. When we study the Abhidhamma the subject is: nama and rupa as they appears one at a time through one of the six doorways. The aim is: less clinging to the idea of self. We learn that in the ultimate sense there are only nama and rupa, no perosn, no world. I understand that you are inclined to think in terms of Hattha yoga, but this is an entirely different world. It depends on your interest what you want to study. I would say, to everyone his way. Also in Hattha yoga one concentrates on breathing, but the Buddha gave it a different dimension. The aim is: understanding that also when breathing there are only nama and rupa, no self who is developing this subject. No person in the breath. When developed with vipassana it can lead to detachment even to the stage of arahatship when all defilements are eradicated. Thus, whatever we study in Buddhism, it should lead to right understanding of realities appearing now and to detachment from the self. Otherwise it does not make any sense. Nina. #101896 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 3:04 pm Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 3, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, It is inevitable that questions arise with regard to the implication of the truth of non-self in one’s life. People generally have questions as to the existence of a free will. If there is no self, only empty phenomena which appear and disappear, can there be a free will, can one have a free choice in the taking of decisions in life? Are a free will and self-control not essential elements of human life? The truth of non-self seems to imply that one’s whole life is determined, even predestined, by conditions. The answer is that a free will presupposes a lasting personality who can exert power over his will. Since there is no “self”, merely impermanent phenomena arising because of conditions, there is no free will independent of conditions. The will or desire to act can be wholesome at one moment and unwholesome at another moment. When there is anger, there is volition which is unwholesome, and it can instigate words of anger. When there is generosity, there is volition which is wholesome, it can motivate deeds of generosity. There can be the decision to do particular things, such as the development of generosity or of understanding, but there is no person who decides to do this. There are different moments of decision arising because of different conditions. What one decides to do depends on past accumulations of wholesomeness and unwholesomeness, on one’s education, on the friends one associates with. It may be felt that, since accumulations of wholesomeness and unwholesomeness in the past condition one’s actions, speech and thoughts today, one would be a helpless victim of these accumulated conditions. What is the sense of life if everything is determined. So long as there is clinging to a concept of self there is enslavement, no freedom. When understanding is developed which can eliminate the clinging to a self one becomes really free. Also the development of understanding is conditioned, it is conditioned by previous moments of understanding, by association with someone who can explain the Dhamma, by the study of the Buddhist teachings. Whatever we think or do is dependent on conditions which operate in our life in an intricate way. The seventh book of the Abhidhamma deals entirely with the different conditions for all mental and physical phenomena of life, with the aim to help people to have more understanding of these conditions. Even freedom is dependent on conditions. The more understanding of realities develops, the more will there be the letting go of clinging to the importance of self, the clinging to wrong perceptions of reality. Eventually all defilements can be eradicated by right understanding and is this not what can be called the highest freedom? ******* Nina. #101897 From: "freawaru80" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 3:23 pm Subject: Re: Superhuman Delight! freawaru80 Dear Ven. Samahita, thank you very much for your sites and references. From the Dhammapada Dhamma language can be learned. :-) Freawaru #101898 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 3:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. ashkenn2k Dear Freawaru >> Isnt expecting a rebirth to be a deva is motivated by greed? > F: I thought that it is pride that leads to a rebirth as a deva. Or is this Mahayana lore? KO: Nope nothing to do with Mahayana lore. It is craving (greed) that condition rebirth. This is said under the Four Noble Truth. The Cause of Suffering - Craving for existence. > >>When clinging arise, becoming arise, birth, ageing death arise. We >go round in the cycle of birth and death again. No escape as >explain in DO." > F: Yes, but what is "clinging" as meant in DO? KO: Clinging is after craving in the DO. There is a difference in clinging and craving. Craving is describe as getting to the treasure, clinging is hold on to it and not to let it disappear. Suffering in short is clinging to the five aggregates. Be it craving for sensual, material or immaterial planes, this craving cause suffering. Cheers Ken O #101899 From: "freawaru80" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 3:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On Khun Sujin, from another board. freawaru80 Hello Colette, > > > colette: so which is it: did vipassana create yoga nidra or did yoga nidra create vipassana? > > > > I think vipassana is the skill, the ability, the power to experience yoga nidra (yogic sleep). > > colette: from that definition you have place Vipissana as a resultant phenomena only from YOGA NIDRA. I THINK NOT! No. Vipassana means insight into the states of wake, dream and deep sleep. It does nor result from Yoga Nidra but if Yoga Nidra (yogic sleep) is experienced it is due to insight arising simultaniously to deep sleep. > > VIPISSANA IS MUCH MORE THAN A PETTY LITTLE RESULTANT PHENOMENA FROM YOGA NIDRA. Vipissana exists WITHOUT YOGA NIDRA. Sure. Vipassana can be experienced during the wake state. Then it is not Yoga Nidra, not yogic sleep. > Here I am using the definition of yoga nidra as lucid deep sleep like described on this site (if you use a different definition please tell me): > > > > "Yoga Nidra means Yogic Sleep. It is a state of conscious Deep Sleep. In Meditation, you remain in the Waking state of consciousness, and gently focus the mind, while allowing thought patterns, emotions, sensations, and images to arise and go on. However, in Yoga Nidra, you leave the Waking state, go past the Dreaming state, and go to Deep Sleep, yet remain awake. > > http://www.swamij.com/yoga-nidra.htm#not > > " > <...> > > >Throughout your application you made it clear that VIPASSANA was the >state of consciousness to OBJECTIFY to use as a GOAL and therefore I >naturally saught to find out what gets the practitioner this prize, >this reward, of Vipassana. > > > > As far as I know traditionally the first step is to practice concentration. We find this both in Theravadan schools as well as in Tibetan schools. > > > colette: crimeny, now you raise the falsehood of THE CONTEMPLATOR and THE MEDITATOR. What is it? <...> I do not understand what you mean here. Could you please explain? > Okay, your problem is that you cannot have Vipissana right now at your fingertips as if it were in a bottle or a can that you have on your shelf. Vipissan is a reality. Watch this, Vipissana is a psuedo-reality. Pick your poison sonny or is that Sony? Is Vipissana REALITY or is it PSUEDO-REALITY? What do you mean by pseudo reality? > ------------------------------ > > >I chose to apply Yoga Nidra which is also a state of consciousness >as vipassana is a state of consciousness. If I can achieve >vipassana without the coarse, without the path, without the >prerequisites and costly slavery that you may choose to advertise, > > > > What cost do you refer to? > > > colette: now we're gettin somewhere. So, you really do admit that > you're gonna pay for something that you want. Isn't deliberately confusing Mara something ? > You admit that a cost exists! Everything is a matter of priorities > > LETS PLAY! Oh yes... Where are my dice ? Freawaru #101900 From: "freawaru80" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 4:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. freawaru80 Hello Herman, > > > > > N: Sarah explained about observing. Citta experiences an object. We > > > > > can also say: it cognizes an object. You use the term observing, but > > > > > it is still citta cognizing an object, no matter what word you > > prefer. > > > > > ------- > > > > > > > > Hmm. but what is that called that observes citta cognizing an object? > > > > > > > > > > > A very useful question to ask. If we conceive of such a "that", then we > > have > > > arrived at either annihilationism or eternalism. > > > > I do not understand this conclusion of yours. What has observing citta to > > do with eternalism or annihilationism? > > > > What is being tossed around is that it is a citta that arises and ceases. > That is no different to say, a being arising and ceasing, or a person, or a > soul, is it? Not really. Citta does not mean "mind". To use an analogy mind (in the English sense) refers to the solid state system, citta to it's excitations (phonons). A "being" in Buddhism is defined as something one clings to. No clinging no being - still arahats are physically present and one was able to talk to the Buddha even after Liberation. Mind (in the English sense) is probably best translated as Clear Light or sunnata because when the mind is void one can be aware of it in it's pure state, without excitation. Soul is not known in Hinduism/Buddhism - it is an Abrahamic concept. Atta (literally self) again is different defined in the Christian cultures than in Buddhist ones. In the Upanishads atman refers to "that what identifies, that what merges", for example, when one is in jhana it is Atman that is in jhana, takes the jhanic perspective. When one is one's personality (Freawaru, Herman, and so on) it is atman that is absorbed into the respective personality. So Atman refers to the perspective, the point of view. There is wrong view (atman absorbed into beings (clinging to them) and right view (atman absorbed into the Truth, Brahma, the Universal). Then some thought atman would refer to some kind of substance that transfers from one being to another and Eternalism was born. But it does not work this way, just consider the iddhi where one can be absorbed into multiple beings, take multiple perspectives at the same time. So even the Universal Truth is not correct, ultimately. And that is the point the Buddha chimes in. That is just annihilationism. Others do conceive of some > eternal type of consciousness as a something that knows, and that is nothing > short of eternalism. Thoughts of the arising and ceasing of discrete > entities are not in line with DO (or anicca for that matter). Beings do appear and disappear - it is in several suttas described. DO does not negate beings. You know, I never understand what a "discrete, eternal entity" should be. When there is interaction there is change, when there is no interaction there is no time, the Mahayana concept of an unchanging, permanently lasting substance (as discussed by Aryadeva) just confuses me. Freawaru #101901 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 4:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta ashkenn2k Dear Alex >The question is improperly states as "where is blue" or "where is consciousness" . > >According to Mn148 only 12 ayatanas can be divided into internal/external. > >Notice that consciousness, contact, feeling, etc are not stated to be internal or external. > >Consciousness is not a material reality, it has no spatial location. >It is functional interaction between internal & external factors. KO: hmm citta is in oneself, dont tell me your citta is found in another person. Could we classify this as spatial function? Also your eye consciousness could not be possible in the same location as the nose consciousness right because they need their respective base to arise, isn't this spatial location :-). If we should ask is citta is internal or external, is visible object blue internal or external. to me it sounds the same in asking where is blue and where is consciousness. Anyway just happen to look at ayatanas since you mention it pg 54 Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of Bases 222 (3) ..... This is what is said: since the eye and so on are also mental data, this being so why is "twelve bases" said instead of just "mental-data base"? Because of defining door-cum-object for the arising of the consciousness groups. For there, it is precisely because of defining the six consciousness groups by the state of door and the state of object that they come to be divided up in this way; thus they are called the twelve. For only the eye base is the door of arising, and only the visible data base is the object of the consciousness group which is included in the a cognitive serise of eye conscousness. Likewise the others in the case of the others. But only the part of the mind base called the life-continuum (bhavanga) mind is the door of arising and only the mental data base which is not common to all is the object of the sixth consciousness group. So they are called "the twelve" because of their defining door cum object for the arising of the six consciousness groups. .... Cheers Ken O #101902 From: Ken O Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 5:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ashkenn2k Dear Howard > >KO: when seeing what is to be seen is the same as seeing [visible objects] >and seeing consciounesss. >doesnt construe an [object as] seen - simply saying that there is no self >in seeing. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- >That's not so, Ken. The sentence 'He doesn't construe a seer' is what >says that. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- KO: Sorry I dont agreed, This is about sakkaya ditthi. There are four wrong views, seeing self in an object is one wrong view. >He doesn't construne an unseen and doesn't construe an [object] to be seen >- means not in the annihilistic or eternal point of view. >He doesn't construe a seer - anatta. > >There is separation of knowing and known in seeing and seeing >conscousness, one is visible object the other is mental. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- >There is distinction but not separation. See the Nalakalapiyo Sutta in >that regard. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ KO: if there is no separation, how do one eradicate defilements? All the aksuala and kusala would then joint together since they are inseperable, and definitely yes they are different and distinguishable >Similar in the DO name and form is mental and material, the five >aggregates, they support each other but there are different. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- >I did not and do not claim identity of these. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ KO: Are you saying now the name and form and the five aggregates are different identities. How could at one sutta where seeing is one aggregate and object another aggregate is different from the aggregates from DO. Cheers KEn O #101903 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/3/2009 12:37:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard > >KO: when seeing what is to be seen is the same as seeing [visible objects] >and seeing consciounesss. >doesnt construe an [object as] seen - simply saying that there is no self >in seeing. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- >That's not so, Ken. The sentence 'He doesn't construe a seer' is what >says that. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- KO: Sorry I dont agreed, This is about sakkaya ditthi. ------------------------------------------------ What the Buddha asserts in the Kalaka Sutta, namely asserts that with regard to the seeing activity, there is no separate thing, no self-existing reality, that is visible object, there is no visible object that exists as unseen, i.e., independent of seeing, there is no visible object waiting to be seen, and there is no thing that is a seer. This is a statement of thoroughgoing emptiness. ------------------------------------------------- There are four wrong views, seeing self in an object is one wrong view. >He doesn't construne an unseen and doesn't construe an [object] to be seen >- means not in the annihilistic or eternal point of view. >He doesn't construe a seer - anatta. > >There is separation of knowing and known in seeing and seeing >conscousness, one is visible object the other is mental. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------- >There is distinction but not separation. See the Nalakalapiyo Sutta in >that regard. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ KO: if there is no separation, how do one eradicate defilements? ------------------------------------------- Huh? Knowing and known never exist one-without-the-other. That is the assertion. What bearing does your rhetorical question have on this? Defilements are uprooted by cultivation. ------------------------------------------ All the aksuala and kusala would then joint together since they are inseperable, and definitely yes they are different and distinguishable --------------------------------------------- I never said that love and hate, for example, are inseparable. This has nothing to do with my assertion. We arte not discussing the same matter. ------------------------------------------ >Similar in the DO name and form is mental and material, the five >aggregates, they support each other but there are different. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- >I did not and do not claim identity of these. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ KO: Are you saying now the name and form and the five aggregates are different identities. -------------------------------------------- I'm saying that they are different. Of course they are different. ----------------------------------------- How could at one sutta where seeing is one aggregate and object another aggregate is different from the aggregates from DO. ----------------------------------------- What? I'm sorry, I can't understand what this means. --------------------------------------- Cheers KEn O ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101904 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Nov 3, 2009 9:44 pm Subject: Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Freawaru > > >> Isnt expecting a rebirth to be a deva is motivated by greed? > > > F: I thought that it is pride that leads to a rebirth as a deva. Or is this Mahayana lore? > > KO: Nope nothing to do with Mahayana lore. It is craving (greed) that condition rebirth. This is said under the Four Noble Truth. The Cause of Suffering - Craving for existence. > > > > >>When clinging arise, becoming arise, birth, ageing death arise. We >go round in the cycle of birth and death again. No escape as >explain in DO." > > > F: Yes, but what is "clinging" as meant in DO? > > KO: Clinging is after craving in the DO. There is a difference in clinging and craving. Craving is describe as getting to the treasure, clinging is hold on to it and not to let it disappear. Suffering in short is clinging to the five aggregates. Be it craving for sensual, material or immaterial planes, this craving cause suffering. > Hi Freawaru and Ken O, Just adding some comments to Ken's explanation: As I understand it, the doctrine of Dependent Origination basically covers two topics. One is the way things are when the cycle of DO is unbroken, and the other is the way things are when the cycle is broken (by right understanding). While the cycle remains unbroken, all sorts of terrible deeds and results must inevitably occur. Over the course of countless aeons this is a statistical certainty. So too must all sorts of *wonderful* deeds and results inevitably occur. (Excluding enlightenment and parinibbana, of course.) And so in this way it is possible to say that good results, such as rebirth as a deva, are conditioned by bad actions, such as greed and pride. Ken H #101905 From: "ptaus1" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 1:57 am Subject: Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for you reply. > N: ... > I know what you mean: seeing the green of an apple. Perhaps I can > clarify something about visible object. There is not only the green > of apple, but also background colours and seeing sees them all. No > focussing on the green of apple. pt: This is interesting. Can we discuss this in a bit more detail? At which point are all background colors present: - at the moment when external rupa impinges on the pasada rupa of the eye? - at the moment when the coming together of external rupa and pasada rupa produces eye consciousness? - during the entire eye sense-door process? At which point in the sense-door process (if at all) there comes a separation (or picking up) of a separate object (like an apple) out of all the background colors? Thanks. Best wishes pt #101906 From: Vince Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. cerovzt@... Hi Nina vG and all. I'm new here. more words about perception and emptiness: Q- "For whom does materiality disappear? How do pleasure and discomfort cease to be? Tell me how it ceases so that I may be satisfied in my mind that I have understood it." A- "His perception is not the ordinary kind, nor is his perception abnormal; he is not without perception nor is his perception (of materiality) suspended. — to such an one immateriality ceases. Perception is indeed the source of the world of multiplicity." - Kalaha-vivada Sutta. Snp 4.11 best, #101907 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 2:04 am Subject: The Burning Turban! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Seeing the of all phenomena! The Ancient Elders explained: All past constructions & all past formations, whether mental or material have dissolved, and they continue to break up into any future, just as they do now! Clearly observing the inevitable impermanence of all the present constructions, one can infer those past & future to be the same: All formations will disappear! Like dew-drops, when the morning sun comes up. All Aggregates cease & nothing else really exists. Breakup of these 5 clusters of clinging is known as death... One should watch and reflect upon their destruction carefully, just as one who with a diamond drills a hole through a jewel. Since: One who regards all phenomena: As lasting as a bursting bubble; As illusive as a mirage; One regarding all worldly life exactly so, is forever unseen even by the King of Death! Dhammapada Illustration 170 Background Story 170 Seeing the breakup of all phenomena therefore makes one approach Nibbana with the acute imperative urgency & efficacy of one with a burning turban... Vism 645 <..> Spontaneous is the Dissolution of all States... Have a nicely fading day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> The Burning Turban! #101908 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 6:43 am Subject: To Khun Nina. szmicio Dear Nina, How are you? How is Lodewik? I think maybe you should take some rest from the group. You usually spend a lot of time writing/transcribing very helpful posts. But maybe you should take a rest a bit? I have a question. Can pa~n~n that arises with citta, that is at that moment citta ~nanasampayutta, know not only its object? I mean does pa~n~na cetasika know only its object? Or it can know citta that is associated with? I see this as pa~n~na knows only its object, and all cetasikas/cittas can be know when they fall away, then pa~n~na knows past citta. This is acctually dhamanupassana. But there is also cittanupassana, that is knowlage of citta experiecing its object in the same process when panna arises. Best wishes Lukas #101909 From: "Christine" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 7:48 am Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Ajahn Brahmavamso christine_fo... Hello all, On the open website for letters in support, Bhikkhu Bodhi posted this letter: http://www.supportbhikkhunis.org/archive/letters-1---50/from-bhikkhu-bodhi And you may like to read what Bhikkhu Sujato says in his Blog(quite a lot): http://sujato.wordpress.com/ metta Chris ~~~The trouble is that you think you have time~~~ ~~~Life is only as long as your out breath, if you don't breathe in again~~~ #101910 From: "sprlrt" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 7:58 am Subject: Re: More questions about nimitta sprlrt Dear Lukas; Here is the pàli - Alberto .... > > I was wondering if you could post a pali version of your last translation of patthana? It could be helpful to see also pali words. Pa.t.thaanapaa.li (Pa.thamo bhaago) Dhammaanulome Tikapa.t.thaana.m … (2) Paccayaniddeso … 9. Upanissayapaccayoti – purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m abyaakataana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m kesa~nci upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa akusalaa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m abyaakataana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m abyaakataana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Purimaa purimaa abyaakataa dhammaa pacchimaana.m pacchimaana.m akusalaana.m dhammaana.m upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Utubhojanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Puggalopi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Senaasanampi upanissayapaccayena paccayo. … 7. Pa~nhaavaaro 1. Paccayaanuloma.m 1. Vibha`ngavaaro … Upanissayapaccayo 423. Kusalo dhammo kusalassa dhammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo – aaramma.nuupanissayo, anantaruupanissayo, pakatuupanissayo. … Pakatuupanissayo – saddha.m upanissaaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti, jhaana.m uppaadeti, vipassana.m uppaadeti, magga.m uppaadeti, abhi~n~na.m uppaadeti, samaapatti.m uppaadeti. Siila.m…pe… suta.m…pe… caaga.m…pe… pa~n~na.m upanissaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti, jhaana.m uppaadeti, vipassana.m uppaadeti, magga.m uppaadeti, abhi~n~na.m uppaadeti, samaapatti.m uppaadeti. Saddhaa… siila.m… suta.m… caago… pa~n~naa … saddhaaya… siilassa… sutassa… caagassa… pa~n~naaya upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Pa.thamassa jhaanassa parikamma.m pa.thamassa jhaanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Dutiyassa jhaanassa parikamma.m dutiyassa jhaanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Tatiyassa jhaanassa parikamma.m tatiyassa jhaanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Catutthassa jhaanassa parikamma.m catutthassa jhaanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. AAkaasaana~ncaayatanassa parikamma.m aakaasaana~ncaayatanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Vi~n~naa.na~ncaayatanassa parikamma.m vi~n~naa.na~ncaayatanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. AAki~nca~n~naayatanassa parikamma.m aaki~nca~n~naayatanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatanassa parikamma.m nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Pa.thama.m jhaana.m dutiyassa jhaanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Dutiya.m jhaana.m tatiyassa jhaanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Tatiya.m jhaana.m catutthassa jhaanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Catuttha.m jhaana.m aakaasaana~ncaayatanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. AAkaasaana~ncaayatana.m vi~n~naa.na~ncaayatanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Vi~n~naa.na~ncaayatana.m aaki~nca~n~naayatanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. AAki~nca~n~naayatana.m nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatanassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Dibbassa cakkhussa parikamma.m dibbassa cakkhussa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa parikamma.m dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Iddhividha~naa.nassa parikamma.m iddhividha~naa.nassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Cetopariya~naa.nassa parikamma.m cetopariya~naa.nassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Pubbenivaasaanussati~naa.nassa parikamma.m pubbenivaasaanussati~naa.nassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Yathaakammuupaga~naa.nassa parikamma.m yathaakammuupaga~naa.nassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Anaagata.msa~naa.nassa parikamma.m anaagata.msa~naa.nassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Dibbacakkhu dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Dibbasotadhaatu iddhividha~naa.nassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Iddhividha~naa.na.m cetopariya~naa.nassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Cetopariya~naa.na.m pubbenivaasaanussati~naa.nassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Pubbenivaasaanussati~naa.na.m yathaakammuupaga~naa.nassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Yathaakammuupaga~naa.na.m anaagata.msa~naa.nassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Pa.thamassa maggassa parikamma.m pa.thamassa maggassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Dutiyassa maggassa parikamma.m dutiyassa maggassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Tatiyassa maggassa parikamma.m tatiyassa maggassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Catutthassa maggassa parikamma.m catutthassa maggassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Pa.thamo maggo dutiyassa maggassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Dutiyo maggo tatiyassa maggassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Tatiyo maggo catutthassa maggassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Sekkhaa magga.m upanissaaya anuppanna.m samaapatti.m uppaadenti, uppanna.m samaapajjanti, sa`nkhaare aniccato dukkhato anattato vipassanti. Maggo sekkhaana.m atthappa.tisambhidaaya, dhammappa.tisambhidaaya, niruttippa.tisambhidaaya, pa.tibhaanappa.tisambhidaaya, .thaanaa.thaanakosallassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. (1) Kusalo dhammo akusalassa dhammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo – aaramma.nuupanissayo, pakatuupanissayo. … Pakatuupanissayo – saddha.m upanissaaya maana.m jappeti, di.t.thi.m ga.nhaati. Siila.m…pe… suta.m…pe… caaga.m…pe… pa~n~na.m upanissaaya maana.m jappeti, di.t.thi.m ga.nhaati. Saddhaa… siila.m… suta.m… caago… pa~n~naa raagassa… dosassa… mohassa… maanassa… di.t.thiyaa… patthanaaya upanissayapaccayena paccayo. (2) Kusalo dhammo abyaakatassa dhammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo – aaramma.nuupanissayo, anantaruupanissayo, pakatuupanissayo. … Pakatuupanissayo – saddha.m upanissaaya attaana.m aataapeti paritaapeti, pariyi.t.thimuulaka.m dukkha.m paccanubhoti. Siila.m…pe… suta.m…pe… caaga.m…pe… pa~n~na.m upanissaaya attaana.m aataapeti paritaapeti, pariyi.t.thimuulaka.m dukkha.m paccanubhoti. Saddhaa… siila.m… suta.m… caago… pa~n~naa kaayikassa sukhassa… kaayikassa dukkhassa… phalasamaapattiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Kusala.m kamma.m vipaakassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Arahaa magga.m upanissaaya anuppanna.m kiriyasamaapatti.m uppaadeti, uppanna.m samaapajjati, sa`nkhaare aniccato dukkhato anattato vipassati. Maggo arahato atthappa.tisambhidaaya, dhammappa.tisambhidaaya, niruttippa.tisambhidaaya, pa.tibhaanappa.tisambhidaaya, .thaanaa.thaanakosallassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Maggo phalasamaapattiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. (3) Akusalo dhammo akusalassa dhammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo – aaramma.nuupanissayo, anantaruupanissayo, pakatuupanissayo. … Pakatuupanissayo – raaga.m upanissaaya paa.na.m hanati, adinna.m aadiyati, musaa bha.nati, pisu.na.m bha.nati, pharusa.m bha.nati, sampha.m palapati, sandhi.m chindati, nillopa.m harati, ekaagaarika.m karoti, paripanthe ti.t.thati, paradaara.m gacchati, gaamaghaata.m karoti, nigamaghaata.m karoti, maatara.m jiivitaa voropeti, pitara.m jiivitaa voropeti, arahanta.m jiivitaa voropeti, du.t.thena cittena tathaagatassa lohita.m uppaadeti, sa`ngha.m bhindati. Dosa.m upanissaaya…pe… moha.m upanissaaya…pe… maana.m upanissaaya…pe… di.t.thi.m upanissaaya…pe… patthana.m upanissaaya paa.na.m hanati…pe… sa`ngha.m bhindati. Raago… doso… moho… maano… di.t.thi… patthanaa raagassa… dosassa… mohassa… maanassa… di.t.thiyaa… patthanaaya upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Paa.naatipaato paa.naatipaatassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Paa.naatipaato adinnaadaanassa…pe… kaamesumicchaacaarassa…pe… musaavaadassa…pe… pisu.naaya vaacaaya…pe… pharusaaya vaacaaya…pe… samphappalaapassa…pe… abhijjhaaya…pe… byaapaadassa…pe… micchaadi.t.thiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Adinnaadaana.m adinnaadaanassa… kaamesumicchaacaarassa… musaavaadassa… (sa.mkhitta.m) micchaadi.t.thiyaa… paa.naatipaatassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. (Cakka.m bandhitabba.m.) Kaamesumicchaacaaro…pe… musaavaado…pe… pisu.navaacaa…pe… pharusavaacaa…pe… samphappalaapo…pe… abhijjhaa…pe… byaapaado…pe… micchaadi.t.thi micchaadi.t.thiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Micchaadi.t.thi paa.naatipaatassa… adinnaadaanassa… kaamesumicchaacaarassa… musaavaadassa… pisu.naaya vaacaaya… pharusaaya vaacaaya… samphappalaapassa… abhijjhaaya… byaapaadassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Maatughaatikamma.m maatughaatikammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Maatughaatikamma.m pitughaatikammassa upanissaya…pe… arahantaghaatikammassa… ruhiruppaadakammassa… sa`nghabhedakammassa… niyatamicchaadi.t.thiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Pitughaatikamma.m pitughaatikammassa… arahantaghaatikammassa… ruhiruppaadakammassa… sa`nghabhedakammassa… niyatamicchaadi.t.thiyaa… maatughaatikammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Arahantaghaatikamma.m arahantaghaatikammassa… ruhiruppaadakammassa…pe… ruhiruppaadakamma.m ruhiruppaadakammassa…pe… sa`nghabhedakamma.m sa`nghabhedakammassa…pe… niyatamicchaadi.t.thi niyatamicchaadi.t.thiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Niyatamicchaadi.t.thi maatughaatikammassa upanissaya…pe… arahantaghaatikammassa… ruhiruppaadakammassa… sa`nghabhedakammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. (Cakka.m kaatabba.m.) (1) Akusalo dhammo kusalassa dhammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Pakatuupanissayo – raaga.m upanissaaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti, jhaana.m uppaadeti, vipassana.m uppaadeti, magga.m uppaadeti, abhi~n~na.m uppaadeti, samaapatti.m uppaadeti. Dosa.m…pe… moha.m…pe… maana.m…pe… di.t.thi.m…pe… patthana.m upanissaaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti, jhaana.m uppaadeti, vipassana.m uppaadeti, magga.m uppaadeti, abhi~n~na.m uppaadeti, samaapatti.m uppaadeti. Raago… doso… moho… maano… di.t.thi… patthanaa saddhaaya… siilassa… sutassa… caagassa … pa~n~naaya upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Paa.na.m hantvaa tassa pa.tighaatatthaaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti, jhaana.m uppaadeti, vipassana.m uppaadeti, magga.m uppaadeti, abhi~n~na.m uppaadeti, samaapatti.m uppaadeti. Adinna.m aadiyitvaa…pe… musaa bha.nitvaa…pe… pisu.na.m bha.nitvaa…pe… pharusa.m bha.nitvaa…pe… sampha.m palapitvaa…pe… sandhi.m chinditvaa…pe… nillopa.m haritvaa…pe… ekaagaarika.m karitvaa…pe… paripanthe .thatvaa…pe… paradaara.m gantvaa…pe… gaamaghaata.m karitvaa…pe… nigamaghaata.m karitvaa tassa pa.tighaatatthaaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti, jhaana.m uppaadeti, vipassana.m uppaadeti, magga.m uppaadeti, abhi~n~na.m uppaadeti, samaapatti.m uppaadeti. Maatara.m jiivitaa voropetvaa tassa pa.tighaatatthaaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti. Pitara.m jiivitaa voropetvaa…pe… arahanta.m jiivitaa voropetvaa…pe… du.t.thena cittena tathaagatassa lohita.m uppaadetvaa…pe… sa`ngha.m bhinditvaa tassa pa.tighaatatthaaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti. (2) Akusalo dhammo abyaakatassa dhammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo – anantaruupanissayo, pakatuupanissayo. … Pakatuupanissayo – raaga.m upanissaaya attaana.m aataapeti paritaapeti, pariyi.t.thimuulaka.m dukkha.m paccanubhoti. Dosa.m…pe… moha.m…pe… maana.m …pe… di.t.thi.m…pe… patthana.m upanissaaya attaana.m aataapeti paritaapeti, pariyi.t.thimuulaka.m dukkha.m paccanubhoti. Raago… doso … moho… maano… di.t.thi… patthanaa kaayikassa sukhassa… kaayikassa dukkhassa… phalasamaapattiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Akusala.m kamma.m vipaakassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. (3) Abyaakato dhammo abyaakatassa dhammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo – aaramma.nuupanissayo, anantaruupanissayo, pakatuupanissayo. … Pakatuupanissayo – kaayika.m sukha.m kaayikassa sukhassa, kaayikassa dukkhassa, phalasamaapattiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Kaayika.m dukkha.m kaayikassa sukhassa, kaayikassa dukkhassa, phalasamaapattiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Utu kaayikassa sukhassa, kaayikassa dukkhassa, phalasamaapattiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Bhojana.m kaayikassa sukhassa, kaayikassa dukkhassa, phalasamaapattiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Senaasana.m kaayikassa sukhassa, kaayikassa dukkhassa, phalasamaapattiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Kaayika.m sukha.m… kaayika.m dukkha.m… utu… bhojana.m… senaasana.m kaayikassa sukhassa, kaayikassa dukkhassa, phalasamaapattiyaa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Phalasamaapatti kaayikassa sukhassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Arahaa kaayika.m sukha.m upanissaaya anuppanna.m kiriyasamaapatti.m uppaadeti, uppanna.m samaapajjati, sa`nkhaare aniccato dukkhato anattato vipassati. Kaayika.m dukkha.m… utu.m… bhojana.m … senaasana.m upanissaaya anuppanna.m kiriyasamaapatti.m uppaadeti, uppanna.m samaapajjati, sa`nkhaare aniccato dukkhato anattato vipassati. (1) Abyaakato dhammo kusalassa dhammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo – aaramma.nuupanissayo, anantaruupanissayo, pakatuupanissayo. … Pakatuupanissayo – kaayika.m sukha.m upanissaaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti, jhaana.m uppaadeti, vipassana.m uppaadeti, magga.m uppaadeti, abhi~n~na.m uppaadeti, samaapatti.m uppaadeti. Kaayika.m dukkha.m… utu.m… bhojana.m… senaasana.m upanissaaya daana.m deti, siila.m samaadiyati, uposathakamma.m karoti, jhaana.m uppaadeti, vipassana.m uppaadeti, magga.m uppaadeti, abhi~n~na.m uppaadeti, samaapatti.m uppaadeti. Kaayika.m sukha.m… kaayika.m dukkha.m… utu… bhojana.m… senaasana.m saddhaaya… siilassa… sutassa… caagassa… pa~n~naaya upanissayapaccayena paccayo. (2) Abyaakato dhammo akusalassa dhammassa upanissayapaccayena paccayo – aaramma.nuupanissayo, anantaruupanissayo, pakatuupanissayo. … Pakatuupanissayo – kaayika.m sukha.m upanissaaya paa.na.m hanati, adinna.m aadiyati, musaa bha.nati, pisu.na.m bha.nati, pharusa.m bha.nati, sampha.m palapati, sandhi.m chindati, nillopa.m harati, ekaagaarika.m karoti, paripanthe ti.t.thati, paradaara.m gacchati, gaamaghaata.m karoti, nigamaghaata.m karoti, maatara.m jiivitaa voropeti, pitara.m jiivitaa voropeti, arahanta.m jiivitaa voropeti, du.t.thena cittena tathaagatassa lohita.m uppaadeti, sa`ngha.m bhindati. Kaayika.m dukkha.m…pe… utu.m…pe… bhojana.m…pe… senaasana.m upanissaaya paa.na.m hanati… (sa.mkhitta.m.) Sa`ngha.m bhindati. Kaayika.m sukha.m… kaayika.m dukkha.m… utu… bhojana.m… senaasana.m raagassa… dosassa… mohassa… maanassa… di.t.thiyaa… patthanaaya upanissayapaccayena paccayo. (3) #101911 From: "freawaru80" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 8:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: nama and rupa. was:samaadhi in a wider sense. freawaru80 Dear Nina, > Thank you for making your perspective clear. Freawaru #101912 From: "freawaru80" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 9:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. freawaru80 Dear Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Freawaru > > >> Isnt expecting a rebirth to be a deva is motivated by greed? > > > F: I thought that it is pride that leads to a rebirth as a deva. Or is this Mahayana lore? > > KO: Nope nothing to do with Mahayana lore. Ah, good :-) >It is craving (greed) that condition rebirth. Okay, I didn't know that craving and greed were used as synonyms :-) > F: Yes, but what is "clinging" as meant in DO? > > KO: Clinging is after craving in the DO. There is a difference in clinging and craving. Craving is describe as getting to the treasure, clinging is hold on to it and not to let it disappear. Sure, but what is meant by this? For example, when doing a technique to induce samatha, say, concentrating on breath, access absorption is reached when the object becomes stable (while stray thoughts still arise). It is also described as "holding" the object (in the mind). Due to "holding" the object in this way awareness of it becomes stable: it does not disappear. As you can see the description of the Path to samatha and jhana is similar to how the DO process is described. Coincidence? > Suffering in short is clinging to the five aggregates. Be it craving for sensual, material or immaterial planes, this craving cause suffering. > Starting from the Witness experience (vipassana), when falling out of it, back into the being of one's observation, the transition process is similar to switching from one jhana to another. First there is focus on the object, the being, then one gets closer to it and starts to "hold" it. Just as in jhana the new object (such as the base of space) needs to be held before absorption can happen. So what we can see here is that absorption into jhana and "birth" as in DO can be described in the same way - the difference is the starting point. For jhana the starting point is our human personality, for DO the starting point is "Ignorance". Conincidence? Freawaru #101913 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 9:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear Vince, welcome to our list. Op 4-nov-2009, om 5:44 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Q- "For whom does materiality disappear? How do pleasure and > discomfort > cease to be? Tell me how it ceases so that I may be satisfied in my > mind that I have understood it." > > A- "His perception is not the ordinary kind, nor is his perception > abnormal; he is not without perception nor is his perception (of > materiality) suspended. — to such an one immateriality ceases. > Perception is indeed the source of the world of multiplicity." > - Kalaha-vivada Sutta. Snp 4.11 ---------- N: I looked up Norman's translation and notes to verse 847 : N: I add: nirodha is the temporary ceasing of perception and mental phenomena for someone who is an aanaagaami or arahat and has cultivated jhaana. Anasa~n~nasatta is a being reborn in a plane where there is only ruupa not naama. Norman: This is the first aruupa jhaana. you write: more words about perception and emptiness. Su~n~natta, emptiness, is a synonym for anattaa. Through the development of right understanding in our daily life we learn the meaning of emptiness, anattaa. Seeing arises and appears, and we can learn that nobody can make it arise. It arises because of conditions. Suddenly we hear a loud noise. Nobody directed the hearing nor the sound, they all arise because of their own conditions. Phenomena arise and then disappear. There is seeing right now, and all other experiences from early morning on have gone, they are no more. -------- Nina. #101914 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 9:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama and rupa. was:samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear Freawaru, Op 4-nov-2009, om 9:40 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > Thank you for making your perspective clear. ------- N: I was too short on Mindfulness of breathing. Those who are very skilful in jhaana can develop vipassanaa with jhaana as base, but the difficulty of mindfulness of breathing should not be underestimated. Nina. #101915 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 9:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Khun Nina. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 4-nov-2009, om 7:43 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > How are you? How is Lodewik? > I think maybe you should take some rest from the group. You usually > spend a lot of time writing/transcribing very helpful posts. But > maybe you should take a rest a bit? -------- N: Thanks for your good advice. I told Lodewijk and he said: 'Hear, hear, very good of Lukas'. But I had to laugh. ------- > > I have a question. Can pa~n~n that arises with citta, that is at > that moment citta ~nanasampayutta, know not only its object? > I mean does pa~n~na cetasika know only its object? Or it can know > citta that is associated with? I see this as pa~n~na knows only its > object, and all cetasikas/cittas can be know when they fall away, > then pa~n~na knows past citta. ------- N: Yes, correct. All cetasikas, including pa~n~naa, share the same object as the citta they accompany. They cannot experience any other object. ---------- > This is acctually dhamanupassana. But there is also cittanupassana, > that is knowledge of citta experiencing its object in the same > process when panna arises. --------- N: Pa~n~naa can realize the characteristic of the citta that has just fallen away. For example, citta with dosa. This has fallen away when pa~n~naa arises in a following process and knows the characteristic of that citta, or the characteristic of dosa. In the latter case it is dhammanupassana, but we do not have to worry about names. Just understanding of the characteristic that appears now. We do not have to think: it has just fallen away. ------- Nina. #101916 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 9:51 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 3, no 10. nilovg Dear friends, In order to be able to understand the truth of non-self, the difference has to be known between what is real in the ultimate sense and what is real in conventional sense. It is difficult to clearly know the difference and I will deal with this subject again later on. Seeing, hearing, colour, sound or thinking are real in the ultimate sense. This does not mean that they are abstract categories. They have each their own characteristic and they can be directly experienced. Seeing, for example has a characteristic which is different from the characteristic of hearing. These characteristics do not change, they are the same for everybody. Seeing is always seeing, hearing is always hearing, no matter how one names them. Concepts or ideas such as person, world, animal, are conventional realities one can think of, but they are not real in the ultimate sense. Thinking of concepts such as person or animal is not necessarily unwholesome; we can think of them in a wholesome way or in an unwholesome way. However, we delude ourselves if we take concepts for realities. It is essential to learn the difference between realities and concepts, otherwise there cannot be the development of the Buddha’s Path. So long as understanding has not been developed to the stage that the momentary breaking up of physical phenomena and mental phenomena has been realized, it is impossible to see things as they really are. We believe that seeing lasts for a while and that what is seen also lasts. Our world seems to be full of people, we believe that we really see them. In reality seeing doesn’t last and colour which is seen doesn’t last either. When we “see” people the situation is the same as watching the projected images on a screen which are rapidly changing. We “see” the image of a person or a thing, but the outer appearance is misleading. In reality there are many different moments arising and falling away, succeeding one another. There are processes of seeing, recognizing, classifying, defining and thinking. When it seems that we see a “whole”, the image of a person, it is actually thinking which is conditioned by seeing, by the experience of what is visible. ******* Nina #101917 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 10:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear pt, Op 4-nov-2009, om 2:57 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > This is interesting. Can we discuss this in a bit more detail? At > which point are all background colors present: > > - at the moment when external rupa impinges on the pasada rupa of > the eye? > - at the moment when the coming together of external rupa and > pasada rupa produces eye consciousness? > - during the entire eye sense-door process? ------- N: We cannot pinpoint anything. I used to ask: how far does visible object extend. The answer always was: just whatever appears through eyesense. We should not think too much, then the reality is thinking, not seeing. Seeing sees all that is visible. --------- > > pt:At which point in the sense-door process (if at all) there comes > a separation (or picking up) of a separate object (like an apple) > out of all the background colors? ------ N: Picking out a separate object is already defining, thinking, not seeing; and this occurs in a mind-door process. All the cittas in an eyedoor process experience the same object: just colour or visible object. Nina. #101918 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 11:52 am Subject: Re: To Khun Nina. szmicio Dear Nina, > N: Pa~n~naa can realize the characteristic of the citta that has just > fallen away. For example, citta with dosa. This has fallen away when > pa~n~naa arises in a following process and knows the characteristic > of that citta, or the characteristic of dosa. In the latter case it > is dhammanupassana, but we do not have to worry about names. Just > understanding of the characteristic that appears now. We do not have > to think: it has just fallen away. L: Of course. Just words, but acctually this small classification of kaya, vedana,citta, dhammanupassana can be also very helpful. It helps right understanding to grow gardually. This his very good distinction reminds me: "kaya,vedana, citta, dhammanupassana. No on can choose which one will appear, sati out of control. Sati will find its object on its own, no one can choose". Such reminders helps right understanding to grow gradually in daily life so in the end the patipati will arise. Best wishes Lukas #101919 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 8:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama and rupa. was:samaadhi in a wider sense. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Freawaru) - In a message dated 11/4/2009 4:29:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Freawaru, Op 4-nov-2009, om 9:40 heeft freawaru80 het volgende geschreven: > Thank you for making your perspective clear. ------- N: I was too short on Mindfulness of breathing. Those who are very skilful in jhaana can develop vipassanaa with jhaana as base, but the difficulty of mindfulness of breathing should not be underestimated. ---------------------------------------------- Or overestimated! ;-) ---------------------------------------------- Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101920 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 8:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] To Khun Nina. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lukas) - In a message dated 11/4/2009 4:48:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Pa~n~naa can realize the characteristic of the citta that has just fallen away. For example, citta with dosa. This has fallen away when pa~n~naa arises in a following process and knows the characteristic of that citta, or the characteristic of dosa. ------------------------------------------------ I suppose the question, then, Lukas's question, is whether the object of pa~n~na is the just-passed citta or the cetasika dosa, or both. The citta was one dhamma and the dosa was another; so, if both are now known by pa~n~na (and the current citta), is that not two objects of consciousness? In the following, I am attempting to formulate matters using the same agency terminology and discrete-dhamma (or dhamma-packet) terminology [my names, not yours] that is usually adopted by DSG Abhidhammikas: There was citta C1 accompanied by the dosa cetasika D1, and the subsequent citta C2 knows, it seems, both C1 and D1. But C1 and D1 are two different paramattha dhammas, which seems to make them two different objects of C2. (Citta C2 and its accompanying pa~n~na P2 take the same object.) A separate issue, not raised by Lukas, but that I have raised before without receiving a reply that I found satisfactory is the matter of what kind of knowing it is when C2 (and P2) know dhammas that have passed away and, thus, no longer exist. This knowing must be a form of "fresh" recollection. --------------------------------------------------- In the latter case it is dhammanupassana, but we do not have to worry about names. Just understanding of the characteristic that appears now. We do not have to think: it has just fallen away. =================================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101921 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama and rupa. was:samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 4-nov-2009, om 14:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: I was too short on Mindfulness of breathing. Those who are very > skilful in jhaana can develop vipassanaa with jhaana as base, but the > difficulty of mindfulness of breathing should not be underestimated. > ---------------------------------------------- > H:Or overestimated! ;-) ------- N: I consider this a very dangerous thing. -------- Nina. #101922 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 2:17 pm Subject: Re: To Khun Nina. szmicio Dear Howard, Nina >H: I suppose the question, then, Lukas's question, is whether the object > of pa~n~na is the just-passed citta or the cetasika dosa, or both. The > citta was one dhamma and the dosa was another; so, if both are now known by > pa~n~na (and the current citta), is that not two objects of consciousness? L: Only one dhamma can be an object to sati. The past citta can be known by sati. Or some other cetasikas at other time. Suppose if there is anger, that is citta accompanied by dosa cetasika and other akusala cetasikas. Then it such moment, sati cannot arise. sati is kusala and it cannot arise with akusala citta. Citta with anger fall away and then kusala citta with sati and panna can arise and know the past citta of anger or it can know dosa cetasika instead. No one know what will be next object of sati. No control. > In the following, I am attempting to formulate matters using the same > agency terminology and discrete-dhamma (or dhamma-packet) terminology [my > names, not yours] that is usually adopted by DSG Abhidhammikas: There was > citta C1 accompanied by the dosa cetasika D1, and the subsequent citta C2 > knows, it seems, both C1 and D1. But C1 and D1 are two different paramattha > dhammas, which seems to make them two different objects of C2. (Citta C2 and > its accompanying pa~n~na P2 take the same object.) > A separate issue, not raised by Lukas, but that I have raised before > without receiving a reply that I found satisfactory is the matter of what > kind of knowing it is when C2 (and P2) know dhammas that have passed away > and, thus, no longer exist. This knowing must be a form of "fresh" > recollection. > --------------------------------------------------- L: I think past past cittas can be an object to present citta. Best wishes Lukas #101923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 2:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Khun Nina. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 4-nov-2009, om 14:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I suppose the question, then, Lukas's question, is whether the object > of pa~n~na is the just-passed citta or the cetasika dosa, or both. The > citta was one dhamma and the dosa was another; so, if both are now > known by > pa~n~na (and the current citta), is that not two objects of > consciousness? -------- N: Of course, one object at a time. Only through insight the difference between citta and cetasika are known. ------ H: A separate issue, not raised by Lukas, but that I have raised before without receiving a reply that I found satisfactory is the matter of what kind of knowing it is when C2 (and P2) know dhammas that have passed away and, thus, no longer exist. This knowing must be a form of "fresh" recollection. ------- N: Yes, we discussed before, also with Sarah. message 49599: Herman: Also, have I understood rightly that it is said that body-door process > and the following mind-door process have the SELFSAME rupa as object? ------ N: That rupa has just fallen away. But the mind-door processes of cittas follow so soon after the sense-door process, we cannot imagine how fast. Therefore that rupa is still reckoned as present. The Commentaries make a distinction: it is not a concept but it is a not so definiable object (navattabbam aaramma.na). Sarah and I discussed this. Sarah explained, this is under navattabbamaaramma.na, an object 'not so classifiable'. The term is complicated. It is not a concept, but the characteristic of a reality that can be known, although it has just fallen away. You were not satisfied. Perhaps an example: seeing appears now, and it is a present object. However, in reality, seeing must have fallen away, since seeing does not know itself, but it must be another citta arising afterwards in another process. There is no problem if we take note of it that realities appear one at a time now. We do not worry about this 'now', how precise it is. Remember Ven. Nyanaponika, Abh. Studies, explaining different meanings of present. He takes this from the Atthasaalini. Arisen, uppanna, has different meanings. We can study texts, but it is necessary to consider this moment, otherwise you will never be satisfied with the answers, no matter what words we use. ****** Nina. #101924 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 9:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama and rupa. was:samaadhi in a wider sense. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/4/2009 9:01:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 4-nov-2009, om 14:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: I was too short on Mindfulness of breathing. Those who are very > skilful in jhaana can develop vipassanaa with jhaana as base, but the > difficulty of mindfulness of breathing should not be underestimated. > ---------------------------------------------- > H:Or overestimated! ;-) ------- N: I consider this a very dangerous thing. ---------------------------------------------- What are you referring to by "this," Nina? ----------------------------------------------- -------- Nina. =============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101925 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 3:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Khun Nina. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas a citta can be an object of another citta Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary, pg 104, para (50) << But mind objects comprises of six kinds : the sensitive materialities, subtle mentarialities, consciousness, mentalities, nibbana and concpets.>> Cheers Ken O #101926 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: samaadhi in a wider sense. ashkenn2k Dear Freawaru >> KO: Clinging is after craving in the DO. There is a difference in clinging and craving. Craving is describe as getting to the treasure, clinging is hold on to it and not to let it disappear. > F: Sure, but what is meant by this? For example, when doing a technique to induce samatha, say, concentrating on breath, access absorption is reached when the object becomes stable (while stray thoughts still arise). It is also described as "holding" the object (in the mind). Due to "holding" the object in this way awareness of it becomes stable: it does not disappear. As you can see the description of the Path to samatha and jhana is similar to how the DO process is described. Coincidence? KO: Sorry I am not good at jhanas. The above explanation is to show the difference to explain craving and clinging and not related to jhanas. They are two different subjects. One is about aksuala dhamma, the other is about kusala dhamma (in which the sensual pleasure is suppressed). I may not be right on jhanas and again not good at it. >> Suffering in short is clinging to the five aggregates. Be it craving for sensual, material or immaterial planes, this craving cause suffering. >> > F: Starting from the Witness experience (vipassana), when falling out of it, back into the being of one's observation, the transition process is similar to switching from one jhana to another. First there is focus on the object, the being, then one gets closer to it and starts to "hold" it. Just as in jhana the new object (such as the base of space) needs to be held before absorption can happen. So what we can see here is that absorption into jhana and "birth" as in DO can be described in the same way - the difference is the starting point. For jhana the starting point is our human personality, for DO the starting point is "Ignorance". Conincidence? KO: Not very sure of your points, could you kindly further clarify. thanks. If panna does not arise after jhana, then wisdom cannot eradicate the defilements. This would not lead to Nibbana and on the other hand it lead to birth. One still clings to craving of existence as one hopes to be born in the Brahma planes. Cheers Ken O #101927 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 3:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama and rupa. was:samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 4-nov-2009, om 15:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > the > > difficulty of mindfulness of breathing should not be underestimated. > > ---------------------------------------------- > > H:Or overestimated! ;-) > ------- > N: I consider this a very dangerous thing. > ---------------------------------------------- > H: What are you referring to by "this," Nina? > ----------------------------------------------- N: My answer was not very clear. If someone thinks that mindfulness of breathing is an easy thing that everybody can develop, then I believe that he is in a dangerous situation. He may take for the right practice which is wrong practice. Nina. #101928 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 3:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ashkenn2k Dear Howard >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- > >KO: Sorry I dont agreed, This is about sakkaya ditthi. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- >What the Buddha asserts in the Kalaka Sutta, namely Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] >seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] >to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer.> asserts that with regard to the seeing >activity, there is no separate thing, no self-existing reality, that is >visible object, there is no visible object that exists as unseen, i.e., >independent of seeing, there is no visible object waiting to be seen, and there is >no thing that is a seer. This is a statement of thoroughgoing emptiness. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - KO: I dont think the assertion that there is no visible object that exist as unseen - a blind cannot see but I could see. Just that the blind has no seeing consciousness, there are still visible objects. Visible objects are conditioned by temperature. Your assertion is the conscousness theory only the mind exist. Also I am also not sure what you mean by thorough going emptiness, are there different level of emptiness. Ins't emptiness is just empty of a self. Heat is not empty, it is still hot. It is just empty of a self. >KO: if there is no separation, how do one eradicate defilements? >------------ --------- --------- --------- ---- >Huh? Knowing and known never exist one-without- the-other. That is the >assertion. What bearing does your rhetorical question have on this? >Defilements are uprooted by cultivation. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --- KO: Again disagreed, rupas are internal and external. They exist with or without us seeing it or experience it unless one is on the immaterial plane. And you said there is no inseparability, between the knowner and the known, then it would be in the constant flux because the object cannot be changed. The knowner cannot known other known since the it is inseparable. It is mutual dependence than that is the correct assertion. KO All the aksuala and kusala would then joint together since they are >inseperable, and definitely yes they are different and distinguishable >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ >I never said that love and hate, for example, are inseparable. This >has nothing to do with my assertion. We arte not discussing the same matter ------------------------------- KO: But your assertion is that they are inseparable, then how could they be separated after that experience? . >------------ --------- --------- --------- --- > >>Similar in the DO name and form is mental and material, the five >>aggregates, they support each other but there are different. >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- ----- >>I did not and do not claim identity of these. >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- ------ > >KO: Are you saying now the name and form and the five aggregates are >different identities. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- >I'm saying that they are different. Of course they are different. >------------ --------- --------- --------- -- KO: Isn't rupas in form the same as rupas in aggregates? Cheers Ken O #101929 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nama and rupa. was:samaadhi in a wider sense. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/4/2009 10:43:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 4-nov-2009, om 15:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > the > > difficulty of mindfulness of breathing should not be underestimated. > > ---------------------------------------------- > > H:Or overestimated! ;-) > ------- > N: I consider this a very dangerous thing. > ---------------------------------------------- > H: What are you referring to by "this," Nina? > ----------------------------------------------- N: My answer was not very clear. If someone thinks that mindfulness of breathing is an easy thing that everybody can develop, then I believe that he is in a dangerous situation. He may take for the right practice which is wrong practice. Nina. ============================= I don't consider it to be easy - far from it. However, it IS doable. My point was to neither underestimate nor overestimate the difficulty. As you point out, an underestimation leads to misperception. As I would point out, an overestimation would lead to no endeavor. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101930 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 4:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (315, 1-2) and commentary. part 1. ashkenn2k Dear Lukas I am not sure anyone has reply you >so ruupa is always kaamaavacara? rupas is refer to kaamaavacra because this is where the craving of the senses are active cheers Ken O #101931 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 11:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/4/2009 10:46:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- > >KO: Sorry I dont agreed, This is about sakkaya ditthi. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- >What the Buddha asserts in the Kalaka Sutta, namely Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] >seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] >to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer.> asserts that with regard to the seeing >activity, there is no separate thing, no self-existing reality, that is >visible object, there is no visible object that exists as unseen, i.e., >independent of seeing, there is no visible object waiting to be seen, and there is >no thing that is a seer. This is a statement of thoroughgoing emptiness. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - KO: I dont think the assertion that there is no visible object that exist as unseen - a blind cannot see but I could see. ------------------------------------------------- So what? An unsighted person has no visible objects arising, but a sighted one does. What of it? (And, as a related aside, two sighted persons never see the same rupa. ) ----------------------------------------------- Just that the blind has no seeing consciousness, there are still visible objects. ---------------------------------------------- In different namarupic streams. So what? A visible object is the visible panorama (or sight) seen in a given namarupic stream at some time. Where is a sight (or "scene" or "color mosaic") to be found elewhere? ---------------------------------------------- Visible objects are conditioned by temperature. Your assertion is the conscousness theory only the mind exist. Also I am also not sure what you mean by thorough going emptiness, are there different level of emptiness. Ins't emptiness is just empty of a self. Heat is not empty, it is still hot. It is just empty of a self. --------------------------------------------- Do you think I'm saying that heat is not hot? ------------------------------------------- >KO: if there is no separation, how do one eradicate defilements? >------------ --------- --------- --------- ---- >Huh? Knowing and known never exist one-without- the-other. That is the >assertion. What bearing does your rhetorical question have on this? >Defilements are uprooted by cultivation. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --- KO: Again disagreed, rupas are internal and external. They exist with or without us seeing it or experience it unless one is on the immaterial plane. And you said there is no inseparability, between the knowner and the known, then it would be in the constant flux because the object cannot be changed. --------------------------------------------- ??? --------------------------------------------- The knowner cannot known other known since the it is inseparable. It is mutual dependence than that is the correct assertion. ----------------------------------------------- Of course I'm speaking of mutual dependence! --------------------------------------------- KO All the aksuala and kusala would then joint together since they are >inseperable, and definitely yes they are different and distinguishable >------------ --------- --------- --------- ------ >I never said that love and hate, for example, are inseparable. This >has nothing to do with my assertion. We arte not discussing the same matter ------------------------------- KO: But your assertion is that they are inseparable, then how could they be separated after that experience? -------------------------------------------- I never said any such thing! I said that knowing and known are inseparable, not "akuala and kusala". What you are speaking of I did not speak of. --------------------------------------------- . >------------ --------- --------- --------- --- > >>Similar in the DO name and form is mental and material, the five >>aggregates, they support each other but there are different. >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- ----- >>I did not and do not claim identity of these. >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- ------ > >KO: Are you saying now the name and form and the five aggregates are >different identities. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- >I'm saying that they are different. Of course they are different. >------------ --------- --------- --------- -- KO: Isn't rupas in form the same as rupas in aggregates? ------------------------------------------------ Sorry, I don't know what you are asking. ---------------------------------------------- Cheers Ken O ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101932 From: "freawaru80" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 4:13 pm Subject: Re: nama and rupa. was:samaadhi in a wider sense. freawaru80 Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: I was too short on Mindfulness of breathing. Those who are very > skilful in jhaana can develop vipassanaa with jhaana as base, but the > difficulty of mindfulness of breathing should not be underestimated. > Nina. > Would you like me to give you a hand? Freawaru #101933 From: "ashkenn2k" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 4:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Defecating Formally --- Enter The Abhidhammika 4! ashkenn2k Dear Suan Are you still around? Suan: In other words, every time K Sujin and her students criticize the formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa, they do disservice to the Buddha's traditional Theravada teachings. I dont think that is the correct assertion by KS because I was in Bkk a few years ago where one of the participants talk about learning meditation from a Burmese monk. She never dismiss or reject formal practise, she only said there is reality present here and now. That is her method and way. Her way if I am not wrong is the dry insighter method. To me, it is up to individual to learn formal mediation or not, because when the accumulations and conditions are right, one could practise according to Visud criteria. I dont discourage anyone to practise meditation because this is the other method. Also because each individual accumulation and inclination is different I believe when KS students call of caution is because attachment to self could be very subtle and they practise the dry insighter method. That is their caution and to me there is nothing wrong with it. Each individual has their own differences in the method one should go and develop the path. I remember one sutta where there was discussion between concentration vs dry insighter method. Wrong speech is wrong if it is not beneficial and is not conducive to the good, not of the dhamma. I dont think one could not claim they are in the wrong speech because they are of the different method. Disillusive comphension? Could you elaborate on this term. Thanks and cheers Ken O #101937 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 7:00 pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja moellerdieter Hi Christine and all, thanks for your information: On the open website for letters in support, Bhikkhu Bodhi posted this letter: http://www.supportbhikkhunis.org/archive/letters-1---50/from-bhikkhu-bodhi And you may like to read what Bhikkhu Sujato says in his Blog(quite a lot): http://sujato.wordpress.com/ I think that following from the blog describes the status quo : ' The Somdet (the acting Supreme Patriarch of the Thai Sangha ) read the letters from Ajahn Liem and from the English Sangha, and then congratulated the Ajahns for their response. He said that it was normal for this kind of disagreement to happen and that we should not be burdened by it. WPP should deal with the matter as its regulations stipulate, but should not make a more serious rift than necessary. Ajahn Chah had once told him that he was afraid of two things in the future of WPP: that it would be bullied by outside forces, and that it would be split by views and opinions. He said that it was important to work for harmony. The Somdet said that Ajahn Brahm is a senior and experienced monk and he has done what he considers right, but the Thai Sangha does not agree. That is his choice and it is not possible to prevent him doing so. Somdet himself would give further consideration as to his own response, mentioning the fact that he is the guarantor of Ajahn Brahm's status as an upajjhaya recognized by the Thai Sangha. On the subject of bhikkhunis, the Somdet gave the opinion that women could ordain in the Mahayana tradition. He said, according to the report, that the ordination should be considered invalid and that the women should be regarded as mae chis. There is nothing much more to add to this, except that the claim that the ordination is invalid has nothing to do with Vinaya, but only the point of view of Thai Buddhism. As I have said before, for the women to be mae chis is ludicrous, as the mae chi is purely a Thai cultural development and the women concerned have never been mae chis. ' with Metta Dieter #101938 From: "Mike" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 7:54 pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja mikenz66 Dear All, The official statement from Wat Pah Pong is now on the Forest Sangha site as a PDF, along with comments from Wat Nanachat. http://forestsangha.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id\ =1&Itemid=8 The statement from Wat Nanachat concludes: "Time only will tell if the bhikkhuni ordination at Bodhinyana monastery in October 2009 will be seen as a key breakthrough in the acceptance of a Theravada bhikkhuni order, or as an overly hasty and confrontational move that alienated many of those it was intended to persuade." Metta Mike #101939 From: "Christine" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 8:08 pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: 101938 > > Thanks Mike and Dieter. Thanks Mike. I think it is really important to read the WHOLE of this official statement from Wat Pah Pong. metta Chris ~~~The trouble is that you think you have time~~~ ~~~Life is only as long as your outbreath, if you don't breathe in again~~~ #101940 From: "Mike" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 8:21 pm Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja mikenz66 Dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine" wrote: > I think it is really important to read the WHOLE of this official statement from Wat Pah Pong. I agree. I think that anyone interested should read all of the statements carefully and reflect that this is complex issue and a difficult time for all affected by it. Metta Mike #101941 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja moellerdieter Hi Mike and all, thanks for this useful information adding to the understanding of the issue. with Metta Dieter #101942 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 9:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Khun Nina. kenhowardau Hi Lukas (and Nina), I often think about this kind of thing too: ----------- L: > Can pa~n~n that arises with citta, that is at that moment citta ~nanasampayutta, know not only its object? I mean does pa~n~na cetasika know only its object? Or can it know citta that is associated with? ----------- Take the example of jhana absorption, which can continue for aeons. Jhana is a kind of consciousness that is described as perfect calm, and yet it contains no consciousness *of* that perfect calm. There is only a perfectly calm consciousness of a kasina (or other object of meditation). I think our instinctive objections to this state of affairs reflect our obsession with self. We think, "What's the use of happiness if we don't know about it?" In fact, all kinds of consciousness can arise, perform their functions, and condition their succeeding consciousnesses without ever having been, themselves, experienced. So the world can, and often does, continue in this way. Kamma (cetana) is constantly occurring in this way, but only weak kamma. As I understand it, strong kamma requires an accompanying thinking about what is going on. Sorry if I have strayed off the topic. Just thinking! :-) Ken H #101943 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 4:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Khun Nina. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Lukas and Nina) - In a message dated 11/4/2009 4:12:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: #101942 ============================== I find this an interesting matter, Ken. It seems to me that knowing-as-an-object is only one sort of knowing, though it is the central one. When there is mental ease (i.e., equanimity), that is a mental event, and all mental events are a kind of knowing. Feeling an object as pleasant is a kind of knowing. Disliking an object is a kind of knowing. The ease or pleasant feeling or disliking are all affective mental functions. While they are in effect, they are part of experience even though they are not the object of consciousness. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101944 From: "colette" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 7:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ksheri3 Hi Guys, Wow, Jon and Sarah placed my post strategically before your posts. For what reason? Ken O seems to be adressing the point I had made a year or two ago concerning the validity of this orthodox definition and category called SIGHT, which is a part of "seeing", and through orthodox rationale, results from eye-consciousness: the result is that the blind see without the foundation of that simpletons drug, that simpletons flagstaffe, that simpletons STANDARD and the Roman that carried the Standard before his illustriustrious horde of Barbarians, similar to this Temple Knights illusion called a piece of the cross upon which Jesus of Nazereth was crucified and that the Knights Templar glorified and which Saladin obsessed to obtain from the Temple Knights. If I may interpret here: Howard is reminiscent of a school teacher that cannot allow a student to pass unless the the characters that issue a passing grade are issued -- we find this in the operation of a computer where a microprocessor only cognizes Os and 1s. Okay, I admit that I have very little knowledge of computer programming but I am only giving recognition to the fact that a microprocessor cannot function if it is not given a single programmed set of characters which are 1s and Os. That is how the computer thinks and functions. If you give the computer a human body then it will not recognize the human body and will reject it, but if you reduce the human body to 1s and 0s THEN the computer can deal with the human body. Take for instance ILL Speaker of the HOuse Micheal Madigan who rules the House of Representatives and now has his duplicated DNA running the Attorney General's office: Does Lisa Madigan actually rule over the law or the law as programmed by the DNA that was collected in a test tube and brown in an incubator which spit out this robot called Lisa Madigan? Does she, Lisa Madigan, function to regulate the laws of the people or the laws of Micheal Madigan? How is it possible for a blind person to see? Why in the mid 1990s I was in the Emergency Room at Swedish Covenent Hosp. after some good people in Ravenswood Manor tried to take my life from me. I have stated many times that I could see even though my eyes were swollen shut. I have stated many times that I was fully aware of what had happened to me and I was totally conscious of the fact that I still could see eventhough my eyes were completely shut. Ken O is giving Howard a run for his money here since Ken O is showing Howard that "vision", that "sight", IS NOT A RESULT OF EYE-CONSCIOUSNESS. It is a function of mind NOT A FUNCTION OF EYE. NO SENTIENT PERSON OR SENTIENT BEING REQUIRES A EYE OR AN EAR OR A BODY WITH WHICH TO SENSE TACTILE EXPERIENCE SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS ALL MIND-ONLY! Is it not MIND-ONLY to instill the fear of retribution into a robot that has just been born and does not know freedom? A robot that has never experienced freedom will act and behave according to the slavery that the robot has experienced and define this slavery as being freedom. Is this not the freedom that George W.Bush wanted to give to the Muslim people in Iraq since George W.Bush was being given such wonderful gifts of oil to fuel a drug dependent society of psuedo-executives in the automobile manufaturing industry: the freedom that George W.Bush wanted and wants the people of Iraq to have is not a freedom based upon American standards but upon a slavery issued by a CASTE SYSTEM, more specifically a slave reality issued by Margerette Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, through the hallucination of a MONARCHY? Didn't Roger Daltry clearly state: "Can't you see the real me"? How blind are you? how blind is a parent to the actuality of their child? Is the Director of the CIA, GEorge Herbert Walker Bush, cognizant of his child's drug addiction through alcohol during his child's formative years? just as i suggested on my website in Novemeber 2001, "what was the conversation at the dinner table between George h.W.Bush and Barbara Bush while the children George W. and Jeb absorbed the information? I eventually used this same logic to experience the album cover that Led Zepplin used for the album PRESENCE since the family was all looking at the same object but they all saw the same object from different points of view, different perspectives, and so could not possibly see the same thing UNLESS THE MASTER COPY DICTATED THAT THEY SAW THE SAME THING. isn't that correct lisa madigan concerning the LAW according to MICHEAL MADIGAN? HOW ABOUT THE LAW ACCORDING TO HENRY HYDE AND RONALD REAGAN, HUH JIM RYAN? is law a theory? If so then isn't it realistic to give BUDDHA NATURE THE RIGHT TO EXIST? Shall we examine THE THEORY OF JUSTICE? Shall we examine Satan and see if Micheal Madigan is a disciple of Satan and programmed the replicated DNA called Lisa Madigan to rule and judge what LAW IS ACCORDING TO SATAN? here we find that problem between your false reality called "good" and "evil": isn't this definition subjected to your transient feelings at the time you encounter a sensation? How about the subjectivity of those same feelings? What if you got up this morning, your first though this morning, was that you got a hot poker up your ass or is that in your mouth, nevertheless, you will have a preditermined disposition as to what is and is not good. Hark, PAVLOV, are you being summoned before us to judge Lisa Madigan if she is a dog and if micheal madigan gave birth to a dog? Russia, the THEIVES WORLD I know we both know eachother, how do you think we should deal with this? Shall we bother the KGB and Vladimr Puttin with such trivial matters that can be dealt with on our own? Sorry, but YES, KEN O. you have HOWARD BY THE BALLS. run with it! toodles, colette #101945 From: Herman Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 10:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/11/4 > Hi, Herman (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 11/3/2009 1:56:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > A characteristic is something that is known or experienced, right? But > you > have introduced a negative here as being characteristic of something real, > and I think that will be very important in coming to understand the > differences in what we are saying to each other. The negative you have > introduced is not-experiencing, or non-experience. Visible object, you say > for example, has the characteristic of not knowing [anything]. I do not > want > to put words in your mouth, but you appear to be saying that not-knowing > can > be known as a characteristic. > ==================================== > This raises an interesting general question: Are absences (especially > absences of characteristics) conditions? (I'm not asking whether they are > "things" - I'm not a "thing guy"!) > I believe that absences really are conditions. Absence of defilements > surely is (to get "Buddhist" ;-). Absence of food over an extended time > surely is. Absence of upset is equanimity, isn't it? Absence of rain has > consequences. Absence of attention (also called "inattention") has > consequences. > There are infinitely many examples of absences that are conditions, even > requisite conditions, for various results. > Also, often of a condition A and the absence of A it is difficult to > say which is the "thing" and which its absence. Attention and inattention > come to mind (versus distraction and non-distraction). Also, which is > positive and which negative of "moving" and "stationary"? There are better > examples, but I'm not searching my internal knowledge base further at the > moment. > ;-) > > > > Your comments are worthwhile and interesting. I certainly agree that > absences play an enormous role in our lives, and in perception. > But what I was driving at with Sarah is how an absence is known. I think that is an important question to answer, because she has made absence a characteristic of something irreducible (paramattha). As I said, I would certainly agree that absence is known, and I would say that it is known by thinking, it is not sensed. Absence is a comparison, not a sense datum. Therefore absence cannot be characteristic of a sense datum. Cheers Herman #101946 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/4/2009 5:44:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: But what I was driving at with Sarah is how an absence is known. I think that is an important question to answer, because she has made absence a characteristic of something irreducible (paramattha). As I said, I would certainly agree that absence is known, and I would say that it is known by thinking, it is not sensed. Absence is a comparison, not a sense datum. Therefore absence cannot be characteristic of a sense datum. ========================== Ahh, I see. Thios is something I'll need to think about. (No joke intended.) I think you are right with regard to the majority of cases, but I suspect there are cases in which an absence can be ditectly known. I'll need to think of examples. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101947 From: "James" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fw: DSG Welcome info buddhatrue Hi Staisha, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Staisha, > > >F/W note from Staisha > > >thank you for the welcome. I live in arizona, for àlmost 7yrs i have been buddhist & trying change just from belief, to freedom À friend told me that he stumbled across vipassana letters online, we study theravada & mayhayana. We are in the same situation.. I study sutta & vipassana have been searching for others who have more understanding by investing other than books, meditation only or hearsay. Thank you kindly, peace in the way. Im using cëll, am limited to content -staisha > ... > Sarah: A delayed thanks for this note. I'm glad to see you've settled in well now. I like your questions. James also comes from Arizona, but now lives outside the States. Short content is fine, don't worry. > If you live in Phoenix or close by, you might like to visit Wat Promkunaram. It is in Waddell, AZ. The monks are very friendly and helpful. Metta, James #101948 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 1:58 am Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: >chis. > > There is nothing much more to add to this, except that the claim that the ordination is invalid has nothing to do with Vinaya, but only the point of view of Thai Buddhism. As I have said before, for the women to be mae chis is ludicrous, as the mae chi is purely a Thai cultural development and the women concerned have never been mae chis. ' >_____________- Dear Dieter mae chi is merely a term to indicate that the women are upasikas- lay followers of the Budda. It is hardly ludicrous as any layperson can live as they wish and these maechi are women who like to live in temples and devote their time to Dhamma. They have the choice of living by 5 or 8 or more precepts, just as women in theravada have done for millenia. Now while it is clear that the sasana is rapidly declining and that wrong view of Dhamma is leading this decline, it is also true that disrespeting the Vinaya is another cause for decline. The Buddha could see the problems with women but also knew the way to ensure it would not hasten the decline of the sasana. It is why he institued the very important GarukaDhamma )one of which is that bhikhuni must be ordained by both sangha. There is absolultly no way around this and ignorining it as Bhikkhu bodhi advocates is reckless. To say that they can get around it by using a non-thervada sect is foolish- if they ordian in dhammagupta then they are dhammagupta or if they ordian as Tibetan nuns then that is what they are. http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoins.../modern/thaniss aro/bmc2/ch23.html ""But, Ananda, if women had not obtained the Going-forth from the home life into homelessness in the Tathagata's doctrine and discipline, the holy life would have lasted long, the true Dhamma would have lasted 1,000 years. But now that they have gotten to go forth...this holy life will not last long, the true Dhamma will last 500 years. Just as a clan in which there are many women and few men is easily plundered by robbers and bandits, in the same way, in whatever doctrine and discipline women get to go forth, the holy life does not last long.."" The commentary explains that the sasana will last longer because the Buddha laid down the eight grave rules for Bhikkhuni, and because of the reciting of the Tipitaka at the first council. Robert #101949 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 2:16 am Subject: Physical Phenomena (65) hantun1 Dear All, This is the serial presentation of The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena by Nina. Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas (continuation) Questions and comments are welcome. ---------------------------------- We read in the "Visuddhimagga" (Ch XIV, 68) about decay or ageing: " 'Ageing' has the characteristic of maturing (ripening) material instances. Its function is to lead on towards [their termination]. It is manifested as the loss of newness without the loss of individual essence, like oldness in paddy. Its proximate cause is matter that is maturing (ripening). This is said with reference to the kind of ageing that is evident through seeing alteration in teeth, etc., as their brokenness, and so on (cf. Dhs. 644)" The Commentary to the Visuddhimagga explains as to the simile of the paddy, that paddy, when it is ageing, becomes harsh, but that it does not lose its nature, that it is still paddy. It states: "The ageing is during the moments of its presence, then that dhamma does not abandon its specific nature." Thus, here the Commentary does not speak in a general, conventional way, but it refers to decay as one of the four characteristics of a single ruupa, to the moment that is close to its falling away. After a ruupa such as visible object has arisen, there are the moments of its presence, it is decaying and then it falls away. It is the same visible object that is present and decaying, it does not lose its specific nature. The "Atthasaalinii" explains terms used by the "Dhammasanga.nii" in reference to decay, such as decrepitude, hoariness, wrinkles, the shrinkage in length of days, the overripeness of the faculties: "By the word 'decrepitude' is shown the function which is the reason for the broken state of teeth, nails, etc., in process of time. By hoariness is shown the function which is the reason for the greyness of hair on the head and body. By ‘wrinkles’ is shown the function which is the reason for the wrinkled state in the skin making the flesh fade. Hence these three terms show the function of decay in process of time" As to the terms "shrinkage in life and maturity of faculties", these show the resultant nature of this decay. We read: "Because the life of a being who has reached decay shortens, therefore decay is said to be the shrinkage in life by a figure of speech. Moreover, the faculties, such as sight, etc., capable of easily seizing their own object, however subtle, and which are clear in youth, are mature in one who has attained decay; they are disturbed, not distinct, and not capable of seizing their own object however gross" When we notice decay of our teeth, wrinkles of the skin and greying of our hairs, decay is obvious. However, we should remember that each ruupa that arises is susceptible to decay, that it will fall away completely. ------------------------------ Chapter 8. Characteristics of Ruupas (to be continued) with metta, Han #101950 From: "philofillet" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 4:19 am Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja philofillet Hi all I suppose this is bad manners, but I have to say I continue to be perplexed and a bit disappointed by Bhikkhu Bodhi's tendency to make controversial statements. I would like to be able to count on him as an impartial translator/compliler of the Theravadan texts in English, but this letter and his previous comments about the latter origin of the Abhidhamma seem to be disqualifying him. It is a job for academics to question Abhidhamma and the job for I-don't-know-who to supports revolutionary changes in Theravada, but if Bhikkhu Bodhi does so I feel I can't trust his comments in general. I just find it a bit troubling, I don't know who to trust. I guess it has to be that old sick fish "one's own judgement..." but I don't trust that either. Maybe DSG is right to put an emphasis on the ancient commentaries, but some of them are so peculiar. I'll have to think about this. In the meantime, keep avoiding harmful deeds and keep doing helpful ones, that's a full time job so these issues needn't be troubling... Metta, Phil #101951 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 4:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja egberdina Hi Phil, 2009/11/5 philofillet > > I just find it a bit troubling, I don't know who to trust. I guess it has > to be that old sick fish "one's own judgement..." but I don't trust that > either. Maybe DSG is right to put an emphasis on the ancient commentaries, > but some of them are so peculiar. I'll have to think about this. In the > meantime, keep avoiding harmful deeds and keep doing helpful ones, that's a > full time job so these issues needn't be troubling... > > This is the real world, welcome to the uncertainty that is inherent in it :-). Do you believe that being a fundamentalist, ie someone who chooses which texts are to be held as sacred and literal truth while denying their own judgment in that, is an improvement on uncertainty? Cheers Herman #101952 From: Vicente Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 3:29 am Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Defecating Formally --- Enter The Abhidhammika 4! cerovzt@... ashkenn2k wrote: > I remember one sutta where there was discussion between > concentration vs dry insighter method. probably you refer to AN 6.46: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.046.than.html best, #101953 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 12:45 am Subject: Total Terror... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Knowing any Appearance to be as Total Terror! The Ancient Elders explained: As one repeats the observation and contemplation of the unavoidable dissolution of all phenomena by their decay, gradual destruction, fall, breakup and ultimate ceasing, then all formations, all constructions, all kinds of becoming, generation, birth, life, destiny, station, or abode, appears as a great dread of total terror!!! When one sees how past phenomena have ceased, present ones are ceasing, and those to be generated in any far future all inevitably also will cease, then what is called -knowledge of appearance as terror- arises in the meditating disciple just in the same way a mother gives up of all hope, when she see her 3 sons beheaded one after the other... When seeing the 2nd son axed she knows: All 3 will die... !!! The meditator's seeing & noting the ceasing of all past, & all present phenomena, is like the woman's seeing the eldest & the middle son's head being slashed off... His realizing the unavoidable ceasing of all future phenomena, by comprehending: All phenomena, whether mental or material, arising in any future will all cease too! is like her giving up hope for the youngest son, thinking: He too will die like them... Vism 645 <...> Have a nice noting the breakup day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #101954 From: Vince Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 4:37 am Subject: Re[2]: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. cerovzt@... Dear Nina > N: I looked up Norman's translation and notes to verse 847 : > (nibbaana) nor become anasa~n~nasatta> > N: I add: nirodha is the temporary ceasing of perception and mental > phenomena for someone who is an aanaagaami or arahat and has > cultivated jhaana. Anasa~n~nasatta is a being reborn in a plane where > there is only ruupa not naama. > Norman: of the four immaterial spheres. He is, then, in the fourth jhaana, > and is at the stage where, having overcome perception of form > completely, he is about to enter the sphere of unbounded space.> > This is the first aruupa jhaana. I'm using this translation: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.11.irel.html your definition is quite clear but the Norman's footnote it's quite confuse to me. Norman writes he is in the fourth jhana and about to enter in the first arupa jhana. However, the text suggest he has overcome perception when Norman interprets the cease of immateriality like an end of the multiplicity: A- "His perception is not the ordinary kind, nor is his perception abnormal; he is not without perception nor is his perception (of materiality) suspended. — to such an one immateriality ceases. Perception is indeed the source of the world of multiplicity. I understand he is living the multiplicity of the world without living the substancial individualities of the multiplicity, It is not the real meaning of the phrase "to such an one immateriality ceases"? And that cease, It is not already an sphere of unbounded space when in such multiplicity there are not substantial individualities to give rise to a bounded-space? I wonder if the Norman's note falls (into existence?) when reading what the Sutta shows in its final part: --- A-"What we asked, you have explained. We now ask another question. Tell us the answer to it. Do not some of the learned declare purification of the spirit8 as the highest state to be attained? And do not others speak of something else as the highest?" Q-"Some of the learned do declare purification of the spirit as the highest. But contrary to them some teach a doctrine of annihilation. Those clever ones declare this to be (final liberation) without basis of life's fuel remaining. Knowing that these (theorists) rely on (mere opinions for their statements) a sage investigates that upon which they rely. Having understood and being free (from theories) he will not dispute with anyone. The wise do not enter into any existence." --- despite the Sutta declares such perception without perception and this multiplicity without substantial plurality like the unsurpassed goal, it seems the Norman's footnote put this into 4th jhana and previous to the sphere of unbounded space. I wonder about this interpretation that he made because it can imply a different understanding of nibbana and the cease My knowledge of Pali nibbana surgery is still scarce and my English it is really in a bounded space. I will thank you any thoughts about non-substantial multiplicity and nibbana, or if perhaps I didn't have understood the Norman's footnote. lot of thanks #101955 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known egberdina Hello Ken O, 2009/11/3 Ken O > > There is separation of knowing and known I would say that there is separation between knowing and known only in thinking. But there is not thinking all the time. #101956 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/11/3 Nina van Gorkom > We have to specify: which cetasikas and which rupas condition which > consciousness. > Do you know anyone who is able to do this? Cheers Herman #101957 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known egberdina Hi Ken O (and Howard), I am very interested in your discussion. 2009/11/5 Ken O > Dear Howard > >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > KO: I dont think the assertion that there is no visible object that exist > as unseen - a blind cannot see but I could see. Just that the blind has no > seeing consciousness, there are still visible objects. Visible objects > are conditioned by temperature. Your assertion is the conscousness theory > only the mind exist. Also I am also not sure what you mean by thorough > going emptiness, are there different level of emptiness. Ins't emptiness is > just empty of a self. Heat is not empty, it is still hot. It is just empty > of a self. > What you are saying, Ken O, is that there are unexperienced experiences. That is a contradiction in terms, and can be safely dismissed. Perhaps you mean that some of the necessary conditions for seeing are present even for a blind man? But that is not what you are saying. Suffice it to say that no individual condition is sufficient in itself, for there to be visible object, which has multiple necessary conditions. One sheaf cannot stand on it's own. Cheers Herman #101958 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known egberdina Hi colette, 2009/11/5 colette > > Sorry, but YES, KEN O. you have HOWARD BY THE BALLS. run with it! > > From which tradition is that? What are the insights preceding this level of attainment? :-) Cheers Herman #101959 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment, to Ken H. egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/11/3 Nina van Gorkom > Dear Ken H, > Op 3-nov-2009, om 1:35 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > > > PS: My mother is staying with us for the next three days, so I > > might be > > a bit busy. > -------- > N: No excuse ;_)) > You say that you think of the present moment several times a day, and > that is good. Why not jot down that thinking for the benefit of all > of us. > Are there no present realities while taking care of your mother? No > metta, no attachment? > Are you saying that his mother, and taking care of her, are not present realities? Cheers Herman #101960 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] names/label egberdina Hi Nina, 2009/11/3 Nina van Gorkom > Dear Staisha, > Op 2-nov-2009, om 4:31 heeft Staisha Perry het volgende geschreven: > > > how does one let go of names & labels? Internally > ------- > N: allow me to answer you on line, since your remarks are of interest > to others as well. > Names can be useful, representing realities and helping us to > understand realities. > We can learn to see the difference between paramattha dhammas and > concepts but we should also know that thinking of concepts is a > reality, there are conditions for its arising. There is no point in > trying to let go of concepts. Whatever has conditions to arise arises > and more understanding of whatever object presents itself can be > developed. We should not select any object. > You say we shouldn't select objects. Would not the selection of objects just arise by conditions? And doesn't the same apply to the developing of understanding? Cheers Herman #101961 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 10:52 pm Subject: Re: Physical Phenomena (65) szmicio Dear Han, very helpful. I think i need to hear more on 4 characteristic of ruupa. Lukas #101962 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 11:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: present moment, to Ken H. kenhowardau Hi Herman (and Nina), --------- H: > > Are you saying that his mother, and taking care of her, are not present > realities? --------- We have told you a million times, Herman. Nama and rupa are ultimately real; concepts are not ultimately real. Ken H #101963 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja sarahprocter... Dear Friends, For your further consideration - From the Paatimokkha, Sa"nghaadiseso (PTS transl): "The rule about schism in the sa"ngha "10. Should any bhikkhu attempt to cause schism in a united sa"ngha or should he persist having undertaken and having taken up a legal process conducive to schism, that bhikkhu is to be spoken to by the bhikkhus thus, 'Do not, venerable sir, attempt to cause schism in a united sa"ngha; do not persist having undertaken and having traken up a legal process conducive to schism. Let the venerable one be at peace with the sa"ngha; for the sangha, united, in agreement, not disputing, having a united recitation [of the Paatimokkha, etc.], lives comfortably.' And should that bhikkhu, being spoken to thus by the bhikkhus, persist in the same way [as before], that bhikkhu is to be admonished by the bhikkhus up to the third time to give up that [course of action]. If, being admonished up to the third time, he should give it up, that is good. If he should not give it up, this entails a formal meeting of the sa"ngha. ***** "The rule about siding with schism "11. [It may be that] there are bhikkhus who are followers of that same bhikkhu, who take his part, one or two or three. They may say thus, 'Do not, venerable sirs, say anything to that bhikkhu; that bhikkhu is a speaker of Dhamma, and that bhikkhu is a speaker of Vinaya, and that bhikkhu speaks in accordance with our desire and choice; he knows us and speaks [with us], and that suits us.' Those bhikkhus are to be spoken to by the bhikkhus thus, 'Do not, venerable sirs, speak thus; for that bhikkhu is neither a speaker of Dhamma nor a speaker of Vinaya. May schism in the sa"ngha not seem good to the venerable ones too. Let the venerable ones be at peace with teh sa"ngha; for the san"ngha, united, in agreement, not disputing, having a united recitation [of the Paatimokkha etc.], lives comfortably.' And should those bhikkhus, being spoken to thus by the bhikkhus, persist in the same way [as before], those bhikkhus are to be admonished by the bhikkhus up to the third time to give up that [course of action]. If, being admonished up to the third time, they should give it up, that is good. If they should not give it up, this entails a formal meeting of the sa"ngha." Metta Sarah ===== #101964 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 11:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Defecating Formally --- Enter The Abhidhammika 4! kenhowardau Hi Ken O, ------- > Suan: In other words, every time K Sujin and her students criticize the formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa, they do disservice to the Buddha's traditional Theravada teachings. > KO: > I dont think that is the correct assertion by KS ------------ It may not be all that far from what KS says, Ken. I think she will say there are no formal practices of sila, smatha or vipassana. She will criticise formal meditation if someone tries to tell her it is the Buddha's teaching. Otherwise, I agree, she wouldn't bother to comment on it. ------------------ KO: > because I was in Bkk a few years ago where one of the participants talk about learning meditation from a Burmese monk. She never dismiss or reject formal practise, she only said there is reality present here and now. That is her method and way. Her way if I am not wrong is the dry insighter method. ------------------ Maybe so, but let's not confuse the other way (the insight plus jhana way) with formal practice. There is no formal practice of any kind in the Buddha's Dhamma. Everything is conditioned. There is no control over reality. Formal practice is synonymous with control over reality. It is anti-Dhamma. Wrong view! Ken H #101965 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 11:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja sarahprocter... Dear Friends, Some say "Conservative", others say "Devout" - kamma brings its results regardless... From "The Itivuttaka", 18 "The split in the Sa"ngha Sutta" (transl. by Masefield, PTS), [also to be found in AN]: "This, unquestionably - so has there been heard by me - was stated by the Lord, was stated by the Arahant, viz. 'One thing arising in the world, monks, arises to a lack of well-being for the manyfolk, to a lack of happiness for the manyfolk, to that which is detrimental, to a lack of well-being, to dukkha, for many folk, for devas and men. What is that one thing? A split in the Sa"ngha. Moreover, when the Sa"ngha is split, monks, there are not only quarrels between one another, but also abuse of one another, rejection of one another, and disowning of one another. In such a case, those who are not devout do not become devout, whilst there is a change for some whjo are devout (atthaddhaa).' This matter the Lord did state; it was in connection therewith that this was so stated: " 'Destined to a state of loss, a denizen of hell abiding for a kalpa, a Sa"ngha-splitter, one delighting in disharmony, one stationed in that which is not Dhamma, falls away from relief from the yokes; having split the Sa"ngha that is harmonious, he is roasted in hell for a kalpa'. "This matter, too, was stated by the Lord, so has there been heard by me." ***** Metta Sarah ========== #101966 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja sarahprocter... Dear Friends, And a little more for "the conservatives" to consider on offences and the disappearance of "the true Dhamma".. From AN Ones, Ch XII, 20 "On unpardonable Offences, etc." (PTS): " 'Those monks who point to what is not an offence as being an offence...to an offence as not being such...to a slight offence as being a serious offence...to a serious offence as being slight...to an offence against chastity (du.t.thulla) as not being such...to what is no offence against chastity as an offence:....who point to a partial offence as a complete one...to a complete offence as a partial one...to a pardonable offence as unpardonable and the reverse....such conduct of theirs is to the loss of many folk, to the misery of many folk, to the loss, the injury, the misery of devas and mankind. Moreover, such beget great demerit and cause the disappearance of this true Dhamma. "But those monks who point to what is no offence as no offence....[etc.]...who point to what is an unpardonable offence as being unpardonable, - such monks...beget much merit and establish this true Dhamma.' " ***** Metta Sarah ====== #101967 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja sarahprocter... Dear Friends, (esp. for those who like to suggest the Buddha urged all to live in the forest, at the foot of a tree.) As most people here will know, the Buddha lay down the rule about schisms and spoke the words below after Devadatta pursued the creating of a schism in the Order. Later, Devadatta did indeed "roast" in the Avici hell for a kalpa. The five items Devadatta put forward as a pretext for the schism were the following: 1. monks should be forest-dwellers 2. monks should all be beggars for alms 3. robes should be taken from the dust-heap only 4. monks should live in the open, 'at the foot of a tree' 5. monks should not eat any fish or meat The Buddha's respnse was the following, as given here in the Vinaya, Vol X, "Book of the Discipline", Part 1, "Formal Meeting", X 1, 1-2, Horner transl.: "'Enough, Devadatta,' he said. 'Whoever wishes let him be a forest-dweller; whoever wishes, let him dwell in the neighbourhood of a village; whoever wishes, let him be a beggar for alms; whoever wishes, let him accept an invitation; whoever wishes, let him wear rags taken from the dust-heap; whoever wishes, let him accept a householder's robes. For eight months, Devadatta, lodging at the foot of a tree is permitted by me. [i.e. not in the four months of the rains.] Fish and flesh are pure in respect of three points: if they are not seen, heard or suspected (to have been killed for him).' " **** Metta Sarah >S: From "The Itivuttaka", 18 "The split in the Sa"ngha Sutta" (transl. by Masefield, PTS), [also to be found in AN]: "This, unquestionably - so has there been heard by me - was stated by the Lord, was stated by the Arahant, viz. 'One thing arising in the world, monks, arises to a lack of well-being for the manyfolk, to a lack of happiness for the manyfolk, to that which is detrimental, to a lack of well-being, to dukkha, for many folk, for devas and men. What is that one thing? A split in the Sa"ngha. Moreover, when the Sa"ngha is split, monks, there are not only quarrels between one another, but also abuse of one another, rejection of one another, and disowning of one another. In such a case, those who are not devout do not become devout, whilst there is a change for some whjo are devout (atthaddhaa) .' This matter the Lord did state; it was in connection therewith that this was so stated: " 'Destined to a state of loss, a denizen of hell abiding for a kalpa, a Sa"ngha-splitter, one delighting in disharmony, one stationed in that which is not Dhamma, falls away from relief from the yokes; having split the Sa"ngha that is harmonious, he is roasted in hell for a kalpa'. "This matter, too, was stated by the Lord, so has there been heard by me."< ***** #101968 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 12:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Physical Phenomena (65) hantun1 Dear Lukas, > Lukas: very helpful. I think i need to hear more on 4 characteristic of ruupa. -------------------- Han: Thank you very much for your kind interest. There are four characteristics common to all sabhaava ruupas. (1) arising or origination (upacaya) (2) continuity or development (santati) (3) decay or ageing (jarataa) (4) falling away or impermanence (aniccataa) I have presented my observation on the first two characteristics, vide my message # 101876. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101876 And Nina had given her remarks on my observation, vide her message # 101887. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101887 Kindly refer to these two messages, in case you have missed them. -------------------- Han: The last one I have posted was the third characteristic taken from Nina's book. In there, Nina had written the definition of ageing and the characteristics of ageing. What Nina had written was complete. However, as I love Pali words, I print below the definition of ageing as given in Visuddhimagga, with some Pali words inserted. 'Ageing' has the characteristic of maturing (ripening) [ruupa paripaaka] material instances. Its function is to lead on towards (their termination) [upanayana]. It is manifested as the loss of newness [navabhaavaapagama] without the loss of individual essence [sabhaavaanapagamepi], like oldness in paddy [viihipuraa.nabhaavoviya]. Its proximate cause is matter that is maturing (ripening) [paripaccamaana ruupa]. paripaaka: [m.] ripeness; maturity; digestion, development, perfection. upanayana: [nt.] 1. bringing near; 2. the ceremony of subsumption. nava: [adj.] 1. new; 2. nine. apagama [Sk. apagama] going away, disappearance navabhaava + apagama = new essence (newness) + loss sabhaavaa + na + apagama = individual essence + not + loss viihi: [m.] paddy. viya: [a particle of comparison] like; as. paripaacana: [nt.] ripening; maturing; development, digestion. -------------------- Han: I also noticed that the characteristics of ageing as given in Dhammasanga.nii which was quoted by Nina, is almost the same as the characteristics of ageing in DN 22 Mahaasatipa.t.thaana sutta. Please see below the characteristics of ageing as given in DN 22. And what is ageing? In whatever beings, of whatever group of beings, there is ageing, decrepitude [jiira.nataa], broken teeth [kha.n.dicca.m], grey hair [paalicca.m], wrinkled skin [valittacataa], shrinking with age [aayuno sa.mhaani], decay of the sense faculties [indriyaana.m paripaako], that, monk, is called ageing. jiira.na: [nt.] decaying; getting old; digestion. kha.n.dicca: [nt.] the state of being broken, (said of teeth). paalicca: [nt.] greyness of hair. valittaca: [adj.] with wrinkled skin. aayu: [nt.] age, duration of life. saÅ‹haani (f.) [saÅ‹+haani] shrinking, decrease, dwindling away indriya: [nt.] controlling principal; faculty; sense. paripaaka: [m.] ripeness; maturity; digestion, development, perfection. -------------------- Han: Furthermore, I found some interesting points in Visuddhi magga about ageing. This is said with reference to the kind of ageing that is evident [paaka.ta-jara.m] through seeing alteration in teeth, etc., as their brokenness, and so on. But that of immaterial states, which has no such visible alteration, is called hidden ageing [pa.ticchanna-jaraa]. And that in earth, water, rocks, the moon, the sun, etc., is called incessant ageing [aviici-jaraa]. paakataa: open, unconcealed. pa.ticchanna : [pp. of pa.ticchaadeti] covered over; concealed, hidden. aviici: no intermission, incessant. [also one of the great hells] Kind regards, Han #101969 From: "Christine" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 12:45 am Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja christine_fo... Hello all, Ajahn Chandako on the Bhikkhuni Ordination in Perth 2009 by Ajahn Chandako, The Buddhist Channel, Nov 5, 2009 This letter was originally written as an open letter to the members of the Buddhist Society of Western Australia, but it may also be shared with others who are interested. Auckland, New Zealand -- Greetings members of the Buddhist Society of Western Australia. I hope you are well. I am sorry to have to let you know that I will not be attending the World Abbots Meeting (WAM) in Perth this December. Because my past contact with the Buddhist Society of Western Australia has been so positive, and because I am aware of how much time, money and effort has gone into preparing the retreat center for this event, it seemed polite and respectful to offer an explanation of why I will not be coming. As you may be aware, one by one, all of the abbots of the official and associated monasteries of the Ajahn Chah lineage outside of Thailand have decided not to attend. The reason is because of the recent actions and attitude of Venerable Ajahn Brahmavamso. It's about how decisions are made in the Sangha and about respect for elders and peers. On October 22nd a bhikkhuni ordination was held at Bodhinyana Monastery without the prior support of the wider monastic Sangha. As a result there have been huge ramifications felt around the world. Fully comprehending the issues surrounding the ordination takes some explanation. I know the people involved pretty well. I lived at Bodhinyana Monastery for two rains retreats ten years ago, and throughout that time I had very high regard for Venerable Ajahn Brahm. Ajahn Brahmali is a good friend. I have been to India with Ajahn Vayama on pilgrimage, and I have known Ajahn Sujato for 17 years. In the past year I have gotten to know Ayya Tathaaloka, and Ayya Sucinta has stayed at our monastery in New Zealand. Having spoken with or gotten emails from all of them concerning the ordination, I think I understand their perspectives and motivations. Personally, I fully support women's aspirations to practice the Dhamma in the form of a bhikkhuni if that is their wish. In June of this year I taught a bhikkhuni monastic training retreat in California in order to help them receive proper training and to demonstrate my support for their difficult quest for equal rights for women in Buddhism. I wrote a supportive article for a bhikkhuni newsletter. I arranged and brought requisites for them from Thailand, and invited some to spend time on retreat at our monastery in New Zealand. So I'm definitely not anti-bhikkhuni. And yet I feel this particular ordination was a serious mistake. Why? First of all, the secrecy with which the ordination was planned and carried out has significantly damaged trust levels with the rest of the Sangha. The normal way we operate as an international monastic community is based on openness and discussion. However, some of the nuns and monks who participated in the ordination told me that they were requested to keep the event secret. They said it was intentionally kept quiet in order to reduce the possibility of other people voicing objections. There was no public announcement until a couple of days beforehand, and the rest of the Sangha only found out indirectly at that time. Ajahn Brahm did not inform his preceptor (the acting head of the Sangha in Thailand) or the head of the Ajahn Chah lineage, Luang Por Liem. Many people feel that they were intentionally deceived. CONTINUED IN THIS ARTICLE: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=8,8666,0,0,1,0 metta Chris ~~~The trouble is that you think you have time~~~ ~~~Life is only as long as an outbreath, if you don't breath in again~~~ #101970 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Nina & all, >/"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer. "When hearing... "When sensing... "When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer./ (From the Kalaka Sutta) ... S: For the Buddha (and arahats), no ma~n~nati, no lobha, conceit or wrong view on account of what is seen. The following from the Udana commentary also refers to the lines from the Kalaka Sutta which you quote and may be of interest (Mucalinda Chapter, p301 Masefield transl.): "How is it that he is the Tathaagata, in that it was of that which is accordant (tatha) that he was a seer (dassitaaya)? In that the Lord knows, beholds, in all its modes, that which, upon coming into focus at the eye-door of beings beyond measure in world systems beyond measure, is known {in this world} with its devas...with its {generations of } devas and men as a sight-object. And that (sight-object) - upon being classified by him, as one who thus knows it, as one who thus beholds it, either by way of its being desirable or undesirable and so on, or by way of whichever term is applicable in the case of things seen, heard, sensed and cognised, under countless names, in thirteen cycles in firfty-two methods, after the method commencing 'Which (material) form constitutes the sight-base? That (material) form which, derived from the four great elements, is visible on account of its colour's sheen, one producing a reaction, blue, yellow......' and so on (Dhs 617) - is wholly accordant; there is no (possibility of that sight-object being) inaccordant. "This is (also) the method in the case of sounds and so on coming into focus at the ear-door and so forth. for this was said by the Lord: 'That which, monks, is, for this world with its devas...with its (generation of) devas and men, a thing seen, heard, sensed, cognised, attained, explored, pondered over by the mind, that do I know...that have I come directly to know, for the Tathaagata, is that fathomed, to that the Tathaagata does not attend' (A ii 25 [S; Kalaka Sutta]). Thus is he the Tathaagata, in that it was of that which is accordant (tatha) that he was a seer (dassitaaya). And in this connection, the origin of the word 'Tathaagata' is to be understood (to lie) in the sense of 'accordant seeing' (tathadassii)." ***** Metta Sarah ========= #101971 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 1:39 am Subject: The Buddhist Apocalypse sarahprocter... Dear Friends, As quoted by Henry Clarke Warren in "Buddhism", from a translation of the Anaagata-Va"msa (History of Future Events): *** "This, O Sâriputta, is the disappearance of the method. "Disappearance of learning:--As long as the text of the Three Baskets, which is the word of The Buddha, and as long as their commentaries are extant, the disappearance of learning will not have occurred. But as time goes on there will be irreligious kings of base extraction, and the courtiers and others in authority will be irreligious, and then the country people throughout the kingdom will be irreligious. On account of their irreligion the god will not rain in due season, and the crops will not flourish properly. And when the crops do not flourish, those who are wont to give the reliances to the congregation of the priests will be unable to do so any more. And the priests, not receiving the reliances, will not teach the novices, and as time goes on learning will disappear. "When it disappears, it is the Great Work [i.e. Patthaana. See page xviii] that first disappears; when that has disappeared, then the Yamaka, the Kathaa-Vatthu, the Puggala-Pa~n~natti, the Dhaatu-Kathaa, the Vibhanga, and the Dhamma-Sangani do so. When the Abhidhamma-Pitaka has disappeared, the Suttanta-Pitaka will also disappear. When the Suttanta disappears, it is first the Anguttara-Nikaaya that disappears, and when the Anguttara-Nikaaya disappears, then the Samyutta-Nikaaya, the Majjhima-Nikaaya, the Diigha-Nikaaya, the Khuddaka-Nikaaya will disappear. My disciples will only remember the Jaataka together with the Vinaya-Pitaka. It is, however, only the well-conducted priests that will remember the Vinaya-Pitaka. But as time goes on they will be unable to remember the Jaataka, and first the Vessantara Birth-Story will disappear, and when the Vessantara Birth-Story has disappeared . . . the Apannaka Birth-Story will disappear. When the Jaataka has disappeared, they will only remember the Vinaya-Pitaka. As time goes on the Vinaya-Pitaka will disappear, but as long as a four-line stanza remains among men, so long the disappearance of learning will not have occurred. But when a pious king shall cause a purse containing a thousand pieces of money to be placed in a golden casket on the back of an elephant, and shall cause proclamation up to the second and third time to be made throughout the city to the sound of the drum, as follows: 'Anyone who knows a single stanza spoken by The Buddhas, let him take these thousand coins together with this elephant,' and yet shall fail to find anyone who knows a four-line stanza, and shall receive again the purse containing the thousand pieces into the royal palace, then the disappearance of learning will have occurred. "This, O Sâriputta, is the disappearance of learning. "Now as time goes on the last of the priests will carry their robes, their bowls, and their tooth-sticks after the manner of the naked ascetics. They will take a bottle-gourd, make of it a begging-bowl, and carry it in their arms, or in their hands, or in the balance of a carrying-pole. And as time goes on a priest will say, 'What is the good of this yellow robe?' and cut a small piece of yellow cloth, and tie it around his neck, or his ears, or his hair, and devote himself to husbandry or trade and the like, and to taking care of wife and children. Then he will give gifts to the southern congregation. And the fruit of this gift, say I, will be a myriadfold. As time goes on the priests will say, 'What do we want with this?' and they will throw away the piece of yellow cloth and persecute the wild animals and birds of the forest, and thus the disappearance of the symbols will have occurred." ***** Metta Sarah ======= #101972 From: "Christine" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 2:09 am Subject: Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja christine_fo... Hello all, Notification of the Wat Nong Pah Pong Sangha decision to revoke the status of a branch monastery The Buddhist Channel, Nov 5, 2009 The following is the official statement issued by Wat Nong Pah Pong with regards to the excommunication of Ajahn Brahmavamso from its Sangha ( Editor's note: The statement was slightly edited for grammatical errors) Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia -- Regarding Phra Visuddhisamvarathera (Ajahn Brahmavamso), abbot of Bodhinyana Buddhist Monastery, Perth, Australia, performing a Bhikkhuni ordination on October 22nd, 2009 at Bodhinyana Buddhist Monastery with himself as Chanting Acariya and Bhikkhuni Ayya Tathaloka as preceptor. Ajahn Brahmavamso had thoroughly planned and prepared, and intentionally concealed, not allowing the Sangha of Wat Nong Pah Pong and its branches in Thailand and abroad to know, fearing the objection of the Sangha, (and proceeding) even though the Sangha of Wat Nong Pah Pong and its branches in Thailand and abroad had made a decision against ordaining Bhikkhunis, which was restated many times – the Sangha does not accept the act of ordaining Bhikkhunis on this occasion and holds it as void. The individuals concerned cannot be considered Theravada Bhikkhunis, as this status contradicts the law of the Mahatherasamakhom, the Sangha administration of the Theravada order in Thailand. Ajahn Brahmavamso had been continually informed of this law, however in violation he went ahead without consulting the Sangha of Wat Nong Pah Pong and its branches in Thailand and abroad. His actions may cause wrong understanding amongst Buddhists throughout the world, and division of views regarding this issue. For the sake of preventing further problems from arising, and for the unity of the Sangha of Wat Nong Pah Pong and its branches in Thailand and abroad, a meeting was held on November 1st, 2009 at 18:00 hours with Phra Rachapavanavikrom as the presiding monk, together with 160 monks including senior Theras from Thailand and abroad, members of the Sangha committee, and abbots of branch monasteries of Wat Nong Pah Pong both in Thailand and abroad, to have Ajahn Brahmavamso acknowledge his fault in ordaining Bhikkhunis unilaterally. He would not admit the wrongness of his actions, which contravene the standard kept by the Sangha of Wat Nong Pah Pong to uphold the principles of Dhamma-Vinaya practiced by the Theravada Sangha of Thailand. As a consequence the following unanimous decision was passed: Bodhinyana Monastery, Perth, Australia, with its abbot Phra Visuddhisamvarathera (Brahmavamso Bhikkhu), is revoked of its status of being a branch monastery of Wat Nong Pah Pong. Wat Nong Pah Pong and its branch monasteries both in Thailand and abroad are not in any way related to or responsible for any of the actions of Bodhinyana Monastery, Perth, Australia, lead by Phra Visuddhisamvarathera (Brahmavamso Bhikkhu), (such as) the ordination of Bhikkhunis that has taken place, and any other activity that may occur in the future. We therefore make this information available for general distribution, for the notification of whomever may be concerned. Respectfully yours, Phra Rachapavanavikrom, (Liem Thitadhammo, abbot of Wat Nong Pah Pong), Phrakruh Pattanakitvisal (Kam Nissoko), Phrakru Bodhisarakhunavat (Boonchoo Thitaguno), Phrakru Ophasavudhigarn (Sophon Obhaso), Phrakru Pavanaudomakhun (Sopha Uttamo), Phrakru Suthammaprachot (Kamphong Thitapuñño), Phra Adhigarn Jundee Kantasaro, Phra Ajahn Paithun Khantiko, Phrakru Udomvanahnurak (Sommay Piyadhammo), Phrakru Palat Anan (Anan Akincano), Phrakru Nimitviriyanugun (Subin Uttamo), Phrakru Pavanahnugit (Lai Dipadhammo), Phra Ajahn Philip Ñanadhammo, Phrakru Bovornsilavat (Prasert Rakkhitadhammo), Phrakru Bodhivanahnurak (Vannachit Jitamaro), Phrakru Vijarasuphavat (Bandit Tejapañño), Phrakru Santithammaviset (Preechar Jutindharo), Phra Adhigarn Vichit Adhipuñño, Phra Adhigarn Henning Kevali. http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=70,8660,0,0,1,0 metta and karuna, Chris ~~~The trouble is that you think you have time~~~ ~~~Life is only as long as an outbreath, if you don't breath in again~~~ #101973 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment, to Ken H. nilovg Hi Herman and Ken H, Op 5-nov-2009, om 6:33 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven: > Are you saying that his mother, and taking care of her, are not > present > realities? ------ N: Exactly what I had in mind when saying: no excuse. We are forgetful and need good friends to remind us. Nina. #101974 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja moellerdieter Dear Robert and all, nice to hear from you .. you wrote : ( quotation from Bhkkhu Sujato's blog: There is nothing much more to add to this, except that the claim that the ordination is invalid has nothing to do with Vinaya, but only the point of view of Thai Buddhism As I have said before, for the women to be mae chis is ludicrous, as the mae chi is purely a Thai cultural development and the women concerned have never been mae chis. ') Dear Dieter mae chi is merely a term to indicate that the women are upasikas- lay followers of the Budda. It is hardly ludicrous as any layperson can live as they wish and these maechi are women who like to live in temples and devote their time to Dhamma. They have the choice of living by 5 or 8 or more precepts, just as women in theravada have done for millenia. D: not just upasikas ( please compare with Wiki's definition : Mae ji (Thai: à¹à¸¡à¹ˆà¸Šà¸µ, RTGS: mae chi, IPA: [mÉ›Ì‚Ë tÉ•Ê°iË]) are Buddhist laywomen in Thailand occupying a position somewhere between that of an ordinary lay follower and an ordained monk....Like monks, mae ji shave their heads and undertake precepts not generally observed by lay followers. This is the eight precepts. Mae ji most commonly receive these precepts from a monk, but there is little in the way of a formal ordination ceremony for most mae ji. Mae ji wear white robes in their daily lives, distinguishing them from both monks and other lay people. Mae ji are not technically members of the clergy, and are not recognized as such by the Thai government. While the male sangha has traditionally received considerable oversight and assistance from various government ministries, only in the 20th Century did the Thai sangha begin to take an organized role in providing for the needs of mae ji. An institute now attempts to roughly track the number of mae ji in the country, and provides funds that can be used to provide educational opportunities to mae ji...) What the Somdet pointed out is, that the Thai Sangha regards the ordination invalid and considers those concerned to be mae chis which actually is nothing new . R: Now while it is clear that the sasana is rapidly declining and that wrong view of Dhamma is leading this decline, it is also true that disrespeting the Vinaya is another cause for decline. The Buddha could see the problems with women but also knew the way to ensure it would not hasten the decline of the sasana. It is why he institued the very important GarukaDhamma )one of which is that bhikhuni must be ordained by both sangha. There is absolultly no way around this and ignorining it as Bhikkhu bodhi advocates is reckless. To say that they can get around it by using a non-thervada sect is foolish- if they ordian in dhammagupta then they are dhammagupta or if they ordian as Tibetan nuns then that is what they are. D: I remember that the idea to use Mahayana Bhikkhuni ordination , for which obviously an unbroken lineage is claimed , as a base to change then to Theravada , was in discussion already more than 20 years ago with prominent supporters and opponents within the Sangha. Seemingly not much has changed .. and the status quo may be kept for some more time because a schism is apprehended . What I miss in the actual case is a response from Ajahn Brahm in respect to the blame from his WPP group. Bhikkhu Bodhi's comment doesn't really help to achieve a necessary consens of the matter.. with Metta Dieter #101975 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Third kind of nibbana element and cessation sarahprocter... Dear pt, part 1 --- On Tue, 3/11/09, ptaus1 wrote: > >However, there's this interesting passage from Nyanatiloka' s dicpt: tionary entry on Gotama http://palikanon. com/english/ pali_names/ g/gotama. htm: > "It is said (E.g., DA.iii.899) that just before the Buddha's Saasana disappears completely from the world, all the relics will gather together at the Mahaacetiya, and travelling from there to Naagad?pa and the Ratanacetiya, assemble at the Mahaabodhi, together with the relics from other parts. There they will reform the Buddha's golden hued body, emitting the six-coloured aura. The body will then catch fire and completely disappear, amid the lamentations of the ten thousand world-systems. " ... S: Yes, the commentary to the Mahaparinibbaana Sutta gives a lot of detail. There's a very good PTS translation of this: "The Buddha's Last Days", transl. by Yang-Gyu An. It's just a slim volume.* Also, this paragraph from the text I was just quoting from on the "Disappearance of the Teachings" in "Buddhism" by Henry Clarke Warren, p485: "Thereupon, the dispensation of The Supreme Buddha being now five thousand years old, the relics will begin to fail of honor and worship, and will go wherever they can receive honor and worship. But as time goes on they will not receive honor and worship in any place. Then, when the dispensation has disappeared, the relics will come from every place; from the serpent world, from the world of the gods, and from the Brahma-world; and having congregated together at the throne under the Great Bo-tree, they will make an effigy of The Buddha and perform a miracle resembling the double-miracle, and will teach the Doctrine. "Not a single human being will be found at that place; but all the gods from ten thousand worlds will come together and listen to the Doctrine, and many thousands of them will attain to the Doctrine. And these will cry aloud, saying, 'Divine sirs, on the seventh day from now our One Possessing the Ten Forces will pass into Nirvana.' Then they will weep, saying, 'From henceforth we shall be in darkness.' Then the relics will put forth flames of fire and burn up that effigy without remainder. "This, O Sâriputta, is the disappearance of the relics." ... >pt: So you read this passage just like when nowadays people for example excavate a mummy, and then restore it, and then parade it through different museum exhibitions and then it accidentally burns in a fire, etc? >On my reading it seems much more "magical" than saying it's just dead matter (I mean the assembling in one place, reforming the Buddha's golden hued body, aura, lamentation, etc, seems like there's much more going on). ... S: They are just rupas, dead matter in the ultimate sense, but because they are the Buddha's relics they come together and 'behave' in a very different way from the remains of any other corpse. Just a law of nature, like the rupas of the Buddha's body when he was alive were very special, like the laws governing world systems and so on.... ... Anyway, DA iii. 899 would stand for a passage in Digha atthakatha, right? If that's so, then I could probably look it up in a sub-commentary (once I learn Pali that is). ... S: Actually, just looking quickly at the PTS translation of the commentary referred to above, it only seems to go up to the distribution of the relics, ch 6. ... Metta Sarah ======== #101976 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Third kind of nibbana element and cessation sarahprocter... Dear pt, part 2 >>S: In nirodha samapatti (for anagamis and arahats only), no cittas arise, so nibbana cannot be experienced. There are just rupas arising and falling away, including jivitindriya rupa. > >> In phala samapatti, for those who attained any level of enlightenment based on jhanas, the phala cittas (of that level) may arise again with nibbana as object. >pt: Thanks for the explanation. In that case, how is parinibbana different from nirodha samapatti (disregarding rupa aggregate)? As I understand it, in both cases there are no more nama aggregates that can take up nibbana as dhamma arammana anymore, right? So, basically, nibbana can be experienced only from stream-entry to parinibbana, right? Thanks. ... S: Nirodha samapatti can be attained by either anagamis or arahats for a limited (pre-set) duration only with limitations (e.g. for emergencies etc). After this limited period, cittas continue to arise by anantara paccaya, one citta succeeding the next. As I mentioned, jivitindriya rupa (and other rupas conditioned by kamma) continue to arise and fall for this time, so it's not like a corpse. At the death of an arahat, parinibbana, no nama aggregates ever arise again and no further rupas arise conditioned by kamma. There's no more life-force. As you say, nibbana can only be experienced "from stream-entry to parinibbana", depending on particular conditions of the arahat in the "upt to parinibbana" case. Here's a quote from a relevant sutta, MN 43, "Mahaavedalla Sutta", 'Vital Formations' (Bodhi, Nanamoli transl.) (note that the vital formations refer to jivitindriya: "MA identifies vitality (aayu) with the life faculty (jiivitindriya), which has the function of maintaining and vitalising the other material phenomena of the living body." "'Vital fromations'(aayusankhaaraa), according to MA, dentotes vitality itself.") **** " 'Friend, when this body is bereft of how many states is it then discarded and forsaken, left lying senseless like a log?' " 'Friend, when this body is bereft of three states - vitality, heat, and consciousness - it is then discarded and forsaken, left lying senseless like a log.' " 'Friend, what is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling?' " " Friend, in the case of one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily formations have ceased and subsided, his verbal formations have ceased and subsided, his mental formations have ceased and subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat has been dissipated, and his faculties are fully broken up. In the case of a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling, his bodily formations have ceased and subsided, his verbal formations have ceased and subsided, his mental formations have ceased and subsided, but his vitality is not exhautsted, his head has not been dissipated, and his faculties become exceptionally clear. This is the difference between the who is dead, who has completed his time, and a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling.' " Metta Sarah ========== #101977 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. sarahprocter... Hi Vince, just a quick welcome here! If you feel inclined, pls tell us a little about your background, your interest in the Dhamma, where you live and so on. Look forward to more chat later. Meanwhile I'm appreciating all your contributions. Clearly, you've been studying a lot... Metta Sarah p.s. Grateful if you (and any other new members) would make it clear whom you are addressing when you post here and also sign off with your name each time. --- On Wed, 4/11/09, Vince wrote: > Hi Nina vG and all. I'm new here. > > more words about perception and emptiness: <..> > - Kalaha-vivada Sutta. Snp 4.11 #101978 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta egberdina Hi Ken O, 2009/11/3 Ken O > Dear Herman > > it is interesting talking to you because you do not hold any assumptions. > I consider this a great compliment, so thank you very much indeed for saying so :-) > When you experience a blue, what experience it. Do you think it is a necessary question to ask/answer? > If you said it is conditoins that experiences it, what is the cause of > these conditions. You have found the problem with asking questions about conditionality. There is no beginning or end to it. > If there is no external or internal, why did Buddha say eye objects and > eye consciousness, in numerous suttas. Is not eye object and eye > consciouness are condtions. > Do you believe the Buddha's emphasis is that it is important to know everything that is possible to know, or is the emphasis on coming to understand that whatever is possible to know is not-self (other), anicca and dukkha? > Yes conceiving of oneself is the root of the problem. That does not mean > we could not deconstruct it. Just like in the DO, it is > properly deconstruct for the understanding on how conditions depend on each > other. Just like the aggregates, the elements, they are descontructing the > premises we have about there is oneself. Could we say there is no > experience of seeing? If there is no experience in seeing, then what see? > > I'd like to differentiate between two types of deconstructing. There is deconstructing, which is an act of discursive thinking about concepts that can be a lot of fun, and/or it satifies a thirst for knowing, and/or it helps to stave of boredom, and/or it helps to avoid seeing the inherently unsatisfactory underlying reality of the way things are etc. And there is the act of not-constructing concepts, which is the road to the jhanas and beyond. In the first, conceptual thinking about seeing remains, no matter how much deconstruction takes place. Cheers Herman #101979 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 4:42 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 3, no 11. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha spoke about all that can be experienced through the senses and through the mind in order to help people to develop understanding of realities and to know the truth about them, to realize them as impermanent, dukkha and not self. Seeing is a reality, but it is not self, hearing is a reality, but it is not self, thinking is a reality, but it is not self. A question which may arise is the following: if people do not exist, what is the sense of developing kindness, which has to be directed towards people, what is the sense of committing oneself to the improvement of the world? The answer is that knowing the truth about realities is no impediment to deal with people, to perform deeds of kindness and to commit oneself to the improvement of the world. Buddhism does not propagate a passive attitude towards the world, on the contrary, it promotes the performing of one’s tasks with more unselfishness, with more wholesomeness. We usually think of people in an unwholesome way, with clinging, aversion and delusion. We cling to an image of ourselves and also to images of other people. We have an image of how they should behave towards us. When someone else does not conform to the image we have of him we are disappointed or even angry. Clinging to images we form up conditions many kinds of defilements, such as conceit, jealousy, avarice or possessiveness. Through the Buddhist teachings we can learn to think of people in the right way, that is, without clinging to false images. While we are in the company of people and talk to them there can be the development of understanding of realities which appear through the senses and the mind. The realisation of the truth that there is no lasting person or self, merely fleeting phenomena, does not mean that one has to shun one’s task in society. The Buddha himself was caring for other people, he was thinking of his disciples, he was intent on the welfare of all beings, but he had no wrong view of an abiding person, of a self. He was an example of kindness, patience and compassion. He visited sick monks and looked after them, he preached Dhamma for forty-five years. He exhorted people to develop kindness and compassion towards other beings. Even when one has realized the truth of non-self one can still think of beings, but instead of thinking with clinging, with selfishness, there are conditions to think more often in a wholesome way, and this is to the benefit of oneself and others. ******* Nina. #101980 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:34 am Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Re: colour, seeing. was: samaadhi in a wider sense. nilovg Dear Vince, Op 5-nov-2009, om 5:37 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Norman writes he is in the fourth jhana and about to > enter in the first arupa jhana. However, the text suggest he has > overcome perception when Norman interprets the cease of immateriality > like an end of the multiplicity ------- N: Norman writes about the ending of perception of form, that is, of ruupa. In the plane of aruupa-brahmas there is no ruupa, only naama. He is a wellknown pali scholar and I feel not qualified to compare his translation with ATI translation. Except that I took nirodha not for nibbaana but for cessation. In other places it can mean nibbaana. --------- v: when reading > what the Sutta shows in its final part: > > --- > A-"What we asked, you have explained. We now ask another question. > Tell > us the answer to it. Do not some of the learned declare purification > of the spirit as the highest state to be attained? And do not others > speak of something else as the highest?" -------- N: Norman's translation is different: instead of: purification > of the spirit, he has purification of the yakkha. --------- > > V quotes: Q-"Some of the learned do declare purification of the > spirit as the > highest. But contrary to them some teach a doctrine of annihilation. > Those clever ones declare this to be (final liberation) without basis > of life's fuel remaining. Knowing that these (theorists) rely on (mere > opinions for their statements) a sage investigates that upon which > they rely. Having understood and being free (from theories) he will > not dispute with anyone. The wise do not enter into any existence." > ----- N: Norman: instead of annihilation: a time for quenching without grasping remaining. ... ------- V: > > despite the Sutta declares such perception without perception and > this multiplicity without substantial plurality like the unsurpassed > goal, it seems the Norman's footnote put this into 4th jhana and > previous > to the sphere of unbounded space. > I wonder about this interpretation that he made because it can imply a > different understanding of nibbana and the cease -------- N: See what I quoted. The wise know conditions, they quench all graspings and do not have to be reborn. However this is a long way. We have to begin now: there is perception of sense objects such as colour, sound, etc. Should these not be known first of all for what they are: just conditioned dhammas? That is the only way that can eventually lead to detachment. Nina. > #101981 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Phil) - In a message dated 11/4/2009 11:56:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Phil, 2009/11/5 philofillet > > I just find it a bit troubling, I don't know who to trust. I guess it has > to be that old sick fish "one's own judgement..." but I don't trust that > either. Maybe DSG is right to put an emphasis on the ancient commentaries, > but some of them are so peculiar. I'll have to think about this. In the > meantime, keep avoiding harmful deeds and keep doing helpful ones, that's a > full time job so these issues needn't be troubling... > > This is the real world, welcome to the uncertainty that is inherent in it :-). Do you believe that being a fundamentalist, ie someone who chooses which texts are to be held as sacred and literal truth while denying their own judgment in that, is an improvement on uncertainty? Cheers Herman ================================ There is a book by Pema Chodrin (sp?) called "The Wisdom of Uncertainty." Also, a quote I love by a now-passed-on Korean Son (i.e., Zen) master is "Only don't know!!" (Of course I can't be *certain* that these sentiments make sense! LOL!) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101982 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: present moment, to Ken H. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Herman) - In a message dated 11/5/2009 2:25:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Herman (and Nina), --------- H: > > Are you saying that his mother, and taking care of her, are not present > realities? --------- We have told you a million times, Herman. Nama and rupa are ultimately real; concepts are not ultimately real. Ken H ============================ Hmm, real vs unreal. Can you explain, Ken, wherein would lie the problem with parricide? After all, all that would be happening is a modification in a bunch of namas and rupas, right? (Or is there special significance to the interrelatedness of the dhammas involved? That is my perspective.) With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101983 From: "philofillet" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 6:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja philofillet Hi Herman > This is the real world, welcome to the uncertainty that is inherent in it > :-). > > Do you believe that being a fundamentalist, ie someone who chooses which > texts are to be held as sacred and literal truth while denying their own > judgment in that, is an improvement on uncertainty? Yes, it's interesting. I was thinking after posting that that I am quite the fundamentalist. I think it's a matter of where we exercise our own judgement. I'm quite ready to make judgement calls with respect to my dealings with people, in very conventional settings, and there is certain leeway there to judge whether or not I am in line with the Dhamma. But I shy away from the kind of thing you and Howard and others enjoy a lot, trying to arrive at your own understanding of deep aspects of cognition and perception and consciousness and so on based on your experience of them. I guess you are following in the Buddha's footsteps in doing so, but my mind (so to speak) just doesn't work that way. I would rather study from a great distance descriptions in the texts of the great ones achieving enlightenment, and even find the model laid out in Abhidhamma helpful whether it was taught by the Buddha or not because it was certainly taught by the great ones. So if it is a model that can't actually be confirmed in experience by me what possible use is it? Well, that's a good question but for now it doesn't bother me. And in fact I'm not spending much time on those teachings these days. And it is good for me to come across posts by you and others who do not shy away from taking things into your own hands and trying to enlighten experience. Metta, Phil #101984 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination re-establishment of original lineage ~ Aja upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/5/2009 3:33:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Dear Friends, (esp. for those who like to suggest the Buddha urged all to live in the forest, at the foot of a tree.) ============================= I haven't encountered any such "suggesters" yet. Whom do you have in mind? With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101985 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 7:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] charactoristic of citta ashkenn2k Dear Herman >> When you experience a blue, what experience it. > H: Do you think it is a necessary question to ask/answer? > KO: yes, aggregate exist. if not we will fall into annhilism. >> If you said it is conditoins that experiences it, what is the cause of >> these conditions. > H: You have found the problem with asking questions about conditionality. There >is no beginning or end to it. KO: defiinitely there is a cause, is said by Buddha in DO >> If there is no external or internal, why did Buddha say eye objects and >> eye consciousness, in numerous suttas. Is not eye object and eye >> consciouness are condtions. >> > H: Do you believe the Buddha's emphasis is that it is important to know >everything that is possible to know, or is the emphasis on coming to >understand that whatever is possible to know is not-self (other), anicca and >dukkha? KO: it is important to know about these or not why did Buddha bother to talk in so many suttas about eye and eye citta, he may as well save his breath and talk about other dhammas. >> Yes conceiving of oneself is the root of the problem. That does not mean >> we could not deconstruct it. Just like in the DO, it is >> properly deconstruct for the understanding on how conditions depend on each >> other. Just like the aggregates, the elements, they are descontructing the >> premises we have about there is oneself. Could we say there is no >> experience of seeing? If there is no experience in seeing, then what see? >> > H: I'd like to differentiate between two types of deconstructing. > >There is deconstructing, which is an act of discursive thinking about >concepts that can be a lot of fun, and/or it satifies a thirst for knowing, >and/or it helps to stave of boredom, and/or it helps to avoid seeing the >inherently unsatisfactory underlying reality of the way things are etc. > >And there is the act of not-constructing concepts, which is the road to the >jhanas and beyond. > >In the first, conceptual thinking about seeing remains, no matter how much >deconstruction takes place. > K: I disagreed that not-constructing concepts is the road to jhanas. Because concept cannot decay, cannot show impermance . Without showing impermanance and pain it is difficult to understand not self. Also deconstructing is taught by Buddha, again why waste time talking it if it is not impt. Deconstuction like five aggregates show causes and conditons and there is no self. Cheers Ken O #101986 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 2:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] characteristic of citta upasaka_howard Hi Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/5/2009 4:22:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: #101970 =============================== Sarah - sorry, but I get *zero* from the foregoing. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101987 From: "freawaru80" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 8:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defecating Formally --- Enter The Abhidhammika 4! freawaru80 Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: ------------------ > > Maybe so, but let's not confuse the other way (the insight plus jhana > way) with formal practice. There is no formal practice of any kind in > the Buddha's Dhamma. Everything is conditioned. There is no control over > reality. What exactly do you mean by "there is no control over reality?" Freawaru #101988 From: "freawaru80" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 8:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defecating Formally --- Enter The Abhidhammika 4! freawaru80 Hi Ken O --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > > Suan: In other words, every time K Sujin and her students criticize the formal practices of siila, samatha and vipassanaa, they do disservice to the Buddha's traditional Theravada teachings. > > I dont think that is the correct assertion by KS because I was in Bkk a few years ago where one of the participants talk about learning meditation from a Burmese monk. She never dismiss or reject formal practise, she only said there is reality present here and now. That is her method and way. Her way if I am not wrong is the dry insighter method. Yes, but her level of teaching is for those who have already a stable sati-sampajanna during wake. Unlike others (say, Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw) she does not teach how to get there. Many of her students have no experience with sati-sampajanna and thus do not understand her teachings in the first place. > I believe when KS students call of caution is because attachment to self could be very subtle and they practise the dry insighter method. When there is no attachment to self at all one is an aryan. How many of her students are aryan so that their warning addresses the problem? How many are close to aryan so that they have an idea what could be meant? I think Suan has a point here. >That is their caution and to me there is nothing wrong with it. It is wrong because they do not know what is meant. It is Dhamma when Khun Sujin says it but not Dhamma when they say the same words. The Buddha's Dhamma does not include to simply repeat phrases. Right speech means to know by experience, by own insight, what one talks about. >Each individual has their own differences in the method one should >go and develop the path. I remember one sutta where there was >discussion between concentration vs dry insighter method. Wrong >speech is wrong if it is not beneficial and is not conducive to the >good, not of the dhamma. I dont think one could not claim they are >in the wrong speech because they are of the different method. When one speaks it is not just words: one means something. But Khun Sujin means something the majority of people cannot understand - they just quote and mean something else based on their own interpretation. So it is not beneficial. Sati-sampajanna really makes a difference and I do not see some of Khun Sujin's students considering seriously this fact. Freawaru #101989 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 8:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known ashkenn2k Dear Howard >------------ --------- --------- --------- - >We NEVER see exactly the same sight. Moreover, unless the entire >visual display is nothing but blue, it is not blue that is the sight. A visible >object is an entire color-mosaic. >------------ --------- --------- --------- - KO: We only see one object at a time. A mosiac is a concept. Also you argument is not true either, if we go watch movies, there are many chances we see the same sight. If we dont see the same sight, then movie makers have a hard time making movies as our sight are all different basing on your assertion. >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- -------- > >KO: It is impt to distinguish rupa and cittas. There are two different >aggregates. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ---- >Yes. So? >------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- KO: its impt so we dont mixed up rupas with mentallity. There are kusala and akusala visible objects due to vipaka. It is the latency that cause our craving to see the objects again and again. If we know it is just a visible objects, a rupa, then the distinction will lead to the development of panna. >--------- - --------- --------- --------- ------- > >KO: We have to be clear, color is there as long as there is rupa. Rupa >has colour does not need us to see. Distinction is impt. >------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- >Where are sights (or color mosaics) to be found, Ken? Where do they >arise and cease? When you open your eyes and look, you see a sight (a.k.a., >visible object). Where did that sight, that color mosaic, exist before you >saw it? Where does it exist *when* you see it? When the Buddha says there is >no unseen, what does he mean? >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - KO: You are making assertion basing on the basis that visible objects only exist in the mind. Visible objects are internal and external. Internal are what we see, external are what we dont see. What we dont see externally does not mean it does not exist, does not mean other people cannot see. You also miss out an impt word construe. Construe an unseen means in my own opinion, is annhilism, construe to be seen means craving for it to happen, craving for existence. This is the process of the senses of an internal visible object. >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- ------ > >KO: To me, when you said inseparable it is different from mutual >dependence. Mixing sand into water is different from mixing sugar into water. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- >When I say that consciousness and it's object are inseparable, I mean >that there is never one without the other. There is no unseen sight (i.e., >visual panorama/color mosaic), and there is no seeing without a sight. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - > KO: They are mutual dependent is not inseparable. Inseparable means they cannot be separated. If they cannot be separated, then we cannot distinguish it. Cheers Ken O #101990 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defecating Formally --- Enter The Abhidhammika 4! ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >------------ > >It may not be all that far from what KS says, Ken. I think she will say >there are no formal practices of sila, smatha or vipassana. She will >criticise formal meditation if someone tries to tell her it is the >Buddha's teaching. Otherwise, I agree, she wouldn't bother to comment on >it. KO; She would not critised, that is not her way. To me, she knows if she critise, it is the arisen of dosa. She will ask you questions but she will not criticise. She will bring you back again and again to the present reality. You can even read it in the books, she never critise formal meditations, she only speak about realities here and now. >------------ ------ > >Maybe so, but let's not confuse the other way (the insight plus jhana >way) with formal practice. There is no formal practice of any kind in >the Buddha's Dhamma. Everything is conditioned. There is no control over >reality. > >Formal practice is synonymous with control over reality. It is >anti-Dhamma. Wrong view! > KO: As Nina said there is confusion over the word formal. There is a stipulated method, pse check Visud. There is even a step by step instruction on breathing meditation, and to some it could be classified as a formal practise. We cannot make such assertion that there is no formal or a stipulated method, because in many cases of Visud the student take a meditation subject from the teacher viz aside the pre-requisite for taking it. Hence this cuold be seen as a formal practise. Formal practise should not equate to control, it could be a way of live that they have accumulated since past aeons, the routine they have learnt many lives ago. Just like ancients ask us to reflect ourselves everyday, do we said it is formal. We cannot said whether one practise breathing meditation now is wrong. Some of the Pacceka Buddhas and Buddha's disciple may have practise this from past Buddhas or other wise teachers since aeons ago. Some of them here may have the accumulations for it due to past encounters with their lives with wise people. We also cannot outright say it does not benefit them even if breathing meditation is not for trival persons. The commentary warn us this breathing meditation is not for everyone but there are mediations that could be for everyone. We should only caution them that panna always come first in any meditation. We could say it is not through meditation that one attain panna, even if we attain jhanas, we still must come out of it to develop wisdom to eradicate defilements. Attaining jhanas does not equate wisdom if not the teachers of Buddha who taught Buddha about jhanas would have become englighted themselves. If not, Buddha himself would have already become enlighted way before he is Buddha as in his previous lives he attained jhanas again and again and born in the Brahmas plane again and again. That we should caution people and not say there is no stipulated method in meditation. Cheers Ken O #101991 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Inseparability of Knowing and Known upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/5/2009 11:46:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Dear Howard >------------ --------- --------- --------- - >We NEVER see exactly the same sight. Moreover, unless the entire >visual display is nothing but blue, it is not blue that is the sight. A visible >object is an entire color-mosaic. >------------ --------- --------- --------- - KO: We only see one object at a time. A mosiac is a concept. ----------------------------------------------- You are mistaken in this, Ken, or you have been mislead by my use of 'mosaic'. What is seen when eyes are open, the entire "scene," is what visible object is, and it typically consists of a variety of colors. ------------------------------------------------ Also you argument is not true either, if we go watch movies, there are many chances we see the same sight. ----------------------------------------------- ??? ---------------------------------------------- If we dont see the same sight, then movie makers have a hard time making movies as our sight are all different basing on your assertion. --------------------------------------------- Of course they are different. --------------------------------------------- >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- -------- > >KO: It is impt to distinguish rupa and cittas. There are two different >aggregates. >------------ --------- --------- --------- ---- >Yes. So? >------------ --------- --------- --------- ----- KO: its impt so we dont mixed up rupas with mentallity. ------------------------------------------------ Who's mixing? ---------------------------------------------- There are kusala and akusala visible objects due to vipaka. It is the latency that cause our craving to see the objects again and again. If we know it is just a visible objects, a rupa, then the distinction will lead to the development of panna. >--------- - --------- --------- --------- ------- > >KO: We have to be clear, color is there as long as there is rupa. Rupa >has colour does not need us to see. Distinction is impt. >------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- >Where are sights (or color mosaics) to be found, Ken? Where do they >arise and cease? When you open your eyes and look, you see a sight (a.k.a., >visible object). Where did that sight, that color mosaic, exist before you >saw it? Where does it exist *when* you see it? When the Buddha says there is >no unseen, what does he mean? >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - KO: You are making assertion basing on the basis that visible objects only exist in the mind. ------------------------------------------------- I don't know what it means to "exist in the mind". What I say is that they only exist as objects of consciousness. They are elements of experience; i.e., experienced phenomena. ------------------------------------------------ Visible objects are internal and external. Internal are what we see, external are what we dont see. What we dont see externally does not mean it does not exist, does not mean other people cannot see. You also miss out an impt word construe. Construe an unseen means in my own opinion, is annhilism, construe to be seen means craving for it to happen, craving for existence. This is the process of the senses of an internal visible object. >>----------- - --------- --------- --------- ------ > >KO: To me, when you said inseparable it is different from mutual >dependence. Mixing sand into water is different from mixing sugar into water. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- -- >When I say that consciousness and it's object are inseparable, I mean >that there is never one without the other. There is no unseen sight (i.e., >visual panorama/color mosaic), and there is no seeing without a sight. >------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - > KO: They are mutual dependent is not inseparable. Inseparable means they cannot be separated. If they cannot be separated, then we cannot distinguish it. ------------------------------------------------- No, that is not so. Outside cannot be separated from inside, but they are distinguishable. "Always co-occurring" does NOT mean "identical." ------------------------------------------------ Cheers Ken O ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #101992 From: Ken O Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 9:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defecating Formally --- Enter The Abhidhammika 4! ashkenn2k Dear Freawaru > >Yes, but her level of teaching is for those who have already a stable sati-sampajanna during wake. Unlike others (say, Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw) she does not teach how to get there. Many of her students have no experience with sati-sampajanna and thus do not understand her teachings in the first place. > KO: that is not true, her teachings is very simple. It is so simple that many do not accept it, do not believe that practising is just understanding realities here and now. She emphasis a lot of paramathas dhamma because that is impt and fundamental to the grow of understanding not self. I personally benefited a lot from her disciples here. My understanding of the dhamma is not clear until I meet her disciples. I personally find her book on the Perfection of Enlightment is the best book I have come across other than the suttas and abhidhamma pitakas. >> I believe when KS students call of caution is because attachment to self could be very subtle and they practise the dry insighter method. > >When there is no attachment to self at all one is an aryan. How many of her students are aryan so that their warning addresses the problem? How many are close to aryan so that they have an idea what could be meant? I think Suan has a point here. > KO: Aggregates by itself has no self, we could not control it. If we could, we would have been able to stop from growing old. One would have said, let my form be thus, let my form not be thus. This is stated very clearly in the Not Self Sutta, We dont need be an ariyan to see it. When we learn Abhidhamma, we will slowly see it. If we learn Abhidhamma, there is clarity and there is no confusion on what is said in the suttas. >>Each individual has their own differences in the method one should >go and develop the path. I remember one sutta where there was >discussion between concentration vs dry insighter method. Wrong >speech is wrong if it is not beneficial and is not conducive to the >good, not of the dhamma. I dont think one could not claim they are >in the wrong speech because they are of the different method. > >When one speaks it is not just words: one means something. But Khun Sujin means something the majority of people cannot understand - they just quote and mean something else based on their own interpretation. So it is not beneficial. > KO: Sorry no offense, you must study Abhidhamma then you realise what she said is in fact simple. To me her is the easiest method as there is no need to worry about today I must do how many hours of meditation or do this or that. It is about mindfulness and development of wisdom in our daily life and activity. Ken O #101993 From: "freawaru80" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 10:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Defecating Formally --- Enter The Abhidhammika 4! freawaru80 Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > >Yes, but her level of teaching is for those who have already a stable sati-sampajanna during wake. Unlike others (say, Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw) she does not teach how to get there. Many of her students have no experience with sati-sampajanna and thus do not understand her teachings in the first place. > > > KO: that is not true, her teachings is very simple. Seriously, how can something taught on the discernment level of less that milliseconds be simple? >It is so simple that many do not accept it, do not believe that >practising is just understanding realities here and now. Someone who has a stable sati-sampajanna during wake can practice in this way, down to the Abhidhamma level. I don't see how one can practice it without the awareness that enables one to insight. Sati-sampajanna is like sitting on a horse. It requires a specific balance and a way to "move" with the horse. Khun Sujin teaches how to ride the horse during jumping, what happens when the horse jumps, and if and only if one can stay on the horse, follow it's movements, one can see what she means. But most people "fall" off their horse just walking. As I said, no problem for those with a stable sati-sampajanna so when you have this you can benefit from her a lot. But those that fall off their "horse" at the slightest movement have no chance. > > > KO: Aggregates by itself has no self, we could not control it. If we could, we would have been able to stop from growing old. One would have said, let my form be thus, let my form not be thus. This is stated very clearly in the Not Self Sutta, All you need to alter your form is the vikubbana iddhi (the power of transconstruction) http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/iddhi.htm See, that is what I mean. You (and others) come to such an conclusion as that it is impossible to transconstruct because an-atta is not interpreted correctly. The right understanding of an-atta comes from the experience, from insight. Reading suttas and discussing them is not enough and leads to the wrong conclusions. >When we learn Abhidhamma, we will slowly see it. If we learn >Abhidhamma, there is clarity It is not learning Abhidhamma until one can discern with the speed of a particle accelerator. Until then it is just playing with a formalism. I understand that you like it, and even that you feel it's positive effects on you (and I am sure there are!) but it is a far cry from Abhidhamma and what one can learn from it. Freawaru #101995 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 2:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To Khun Nina. kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------- H: > It seems to me that knowing-as-an-object is only one sort of knowing, though it is the central one. ------- I am wondering if you have made a typo there. Did you mean to say knowing-as-an-object or knowing-of-an-object? ------------- H: > When there is mental ease (i.e., equanimity), that is a mental event, and all mental events are a kind of knowing. -------------- Yes, although I would prefer to use the word "experiencing" rather than "knowing" in this context. In Abhidhamma, the experiencing performed by panna is called "knowing:" the experiencing performed by sanna is called "marking and remembering:" the experiencing performed by vedana is called "feeling" . . . and so on. ----------------------- H: > Feeling an object as pleasant is a kind of knowing. Disliking an object is a kind of knowing. The ease or pleasant feeling or disliking are all affective mental functions. While they are in effect, they are part of experience even though they are not the object of consciousness. ------------------------ I think I see what you mean: the object virtually takes on the qualities of the consciousness. And so an object experienced with pleasant vedana, for example, would be experienced as a "pleasant object." That theory might fall down, however, when all the other concurrent namas are taken into account. The object would also have to be experienced as a "contacted object" on account of phassa, as a "concentrated upon object" on account of samadhi, as a "laid hold of object" on account of vitakka, as a "repeatedly stuck object" on account of vicara . . . the list goes on. :-) And so I would rather say that the object was simply experienced as the object. Any pleasant vedana, or contact (etc) would have to be experienced separately in subsequent citta processes. Or not at all. Ken H #101996 From: "colette" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 10:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: (dsg) charactoristic of citta, my "butting in" characteristic ksheri3 good Morning Herman, howard states that a characteristic is a behavior, an act. How can this be? A characteristic is something that is repetative and can be proven such as what Pavlov did with dogs and what I have witnessed recently with one of the dogs that lives in the house I rent. PROGRAMMED BEHAVIOR, all I had to do, at one time, was touch the box that milk bone dog buscuits were in. the second that the dog heard that sound then the dog would run to me. Ah, not good enough though since I have lived with many dogs, with dogs that were as dumb and docile as French Poodles yet as smart and cognizant as pure breeds as long haired German Shepards and Great Danes. In the case i speak of now I found that this Blue Pit Bull not only came to me but also salivated heavily, I mean this dog droooooled. I couldn't stop the salivation that the dog had when the dog heard and saw that I was attempting to give the dog a biscuit. So, with the fact that "learned behavior EXISTS" Howard seems to be running that any and every act and/or action is then a characteristic. While this may be true in some long drawn out process of definition it is not true in the fact that a person can instinctively kill another person by the movement of their hand based upon a simple act or action of another person. This is the rationale for, in the martial arts, the student to undergo such sensory deprivations as sight, or hearing, or sensation, etc, BECAUSE IT IS BASED EXACTLY UPON THE SAME PREMISES AS ACCUPUNCTURE. Howard then goes on to say that "you have a negative here", WHAT? You have the negative? How can this be? Howard has the negative since <....> Herman, did you mean to say that Sarah was speaking of the term ABSYNTHE which is a "LICK-HER" or is it Liquor? Rememer now: Lick-her in the front, Poke her in the rear or is it Liquor in the Front-Poker in the rear, those old wives tales about this WOMEN'S TEMPORANCE LEAGUE and their addiction to cocaine seem to get me all confused? So, Herman, you speak of this PRESENCE. Wasn't that a splendid album by LED ZEPPLIN back in the mid-1970s? "N, N, N, Nobodies fault but my own", no? Or is it "if ya take your pick, be careful how ya choose it. Sometimes it's hard to feel it bight"? This goes to the subtly I was speaking of earlier concerning the Winds and Drops which Buddhism so clearly defines AND WHICH JON AND SARAH EASILY CAUGHT MY APPLICATIONS.(Thank you both). Herman, how does an "absince" exist without a presence? How can you say that something is lacking if you had not experienced it previously? Lets suggest that you, Herman, had a mortgage payment of 1000 a month and you received a paycheck that was only 999. Is there an absence? What is absent? Is the paycheck absent a dollar or is the payment absent a dollar? Which did you notice? WHY? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: <...> #101997 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 2:30 pm Subject: Some thoughts on meditation truth_aerator Hello all, Some think that sati & panna are totally different from meditation, jhana. But this shouldn't be viewed that categorically. You can't reach Jhana unless there is at least *some* wisdom, and Jhana does require lots of mindfulness and kusala states. Furthermore all 5 factors (sati, viriya, samadhi, upekkha, panna) are required for Jhana. You need some confidence to follow the Buddha's path to Awakening. As you do so you must be energetic and mindful to remove the hindrances. You also need to have enough wisdom to know which are hindrances, which are akusala, which are kusala states, and ardently remove them. Wisdom without action is mere theory, impotent and with very little practical usefulness. IMHO, to know the hindrances, is to be able to abandon them at least temporary, from where reaching Jhana becomes easy. A sure way to test one's practical wisdom is to see how easy one can abandon the hindrances and reach Jhana. For example to reach Jhana the Buddha had to develop understanding into ""having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of renunciation, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at renunciation, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. Then, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.041.than.html Just some thoughts. With metta, Alex Messages 101993 - 101997 of 101997 Hi, Lisa Profile Contacts Account Info You are signed in as: nichiconnSign OutHelpGet the New, Safer IE8Yahoo!MailMy Yahoo!NewsFinanceSportsWeb Search nichiconn · nichicon@hotmail.com | Group Member - Edit Membership Start a Group | My Groups dhammastudygroup · Dhamma Study Group (DSG) Home Messages Post Attachments Files Photos Links Groups Labs (Beta) Applications Yahoo! Groups Tips Did you know... Want to share photos of your group with the world? Add a group photo to Flickr. Best of Y! Groups Check them out and nominate your group. Having problems with message search? Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system. Messages Messages Help Message # Search: Advanced Start Topic Messages 101998 - 101999 of 101999 Oldest | < Older | Newer > | Newest Messages: Show Message Summaries (Group by Topic) Sort by Date #101998 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 2:47 pm Subject: Wisdom and actual abandoning of Dukkha. truth_aerator Offline Send Email Hello all, Wisdom that doesn't cause abandoning Dukkha temporary and then permanently, is not the Buddhist Wisdom - maybe theory but not Panna. For example to reach 1st Jhana, Buddha-to-be had to develop understanding into Kama, renunciation and so on: ""having seen the drawback of sensual pleasures, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of renunciation, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at renunciation, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. Then ...I entered & remained in the first jhana: The Bodhisattva also had to develop understanding of other factors to reach higher Jhana and aruppa states. Note the phrases such as: "Having seen the drawback of ...", "having understood the reward of being without..." and "I familiarized myself with it." that relate to various mental factors found in and outside of Jhana. === "So at a later time, having seen the drawback of directed thought, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of being without directed thought, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at being without directed thought, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace...I entered & remained in the second jhana... So at a later time, having seen the drawback of rapture, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of being without rapture, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at being without rapture, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. entered & remained in the third jhana, ...' So at a later time, having seen the drawback of the pleasure of equanimity, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at neither-pleasure-nor-pain, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. ...I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: ... So at a later time, having seen the drawback of forms, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of the dimension of the infinitude of space, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at the dimension of the infinitude of space, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. ... I entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space. So at a later time, having seen the drawback of the dimension of the infinitude of space, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. ... I entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. So at a later time, having seen the drawback of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of the dimension of nothingness, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at the dimension of nothingness, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. ... I entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. So at a later time, having seen the drawback of the dimension of nothingness, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. ... I entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. "So at a later time, having seen the drawback of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of the cessation of perception & feeling, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at the cessation of perception & feeling, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. With the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I entered & remained in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as I saw with discernment, the mental fermentations went to their total end." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.041.than.html With metta, Alex Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2) #101999 From: Herman Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 3:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Come inside the show's about to start" ELP egberdina Offline Send Email Hi colette, 2009/11/5 colette > Good Morning Group, > > WINDS pass through that which is SHUNYA because we are Shunya and because > we are shunya THEN the mind must be trained to see that which is phantasm > and that which is SVABHAVA (Theosophical and Hindu definition) or the > Buddhist terminology of ULTIMATE TRUTH/REALITY. The Wind is subtle to the > mind which cognizes reality, the wind is SHUNYA to the mind obessesed with > ILLUSION. That is false! The mind cognizes and conforms to that which the > thinker dictates. THE WIND EXISTS. THE WIND TRANSMITS KNOWLEDGE. THE WIND IS > NOT CONFUSED BY THE ILLUSIONS OF MAYA (HINDU). THE MIND EXISTS WITHOUT THE > ILLUSIONS OF MAYA, WITHOUT THE ILLUSIONS OF OBSESSIONS, THE MIND EXISTS FROM > BUDDHA NATURE, > > NO? > > What is there in the absence of the question "what is there?" ? Cheers Herman