#103000 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] appamatto (diligent) vs aataapii (ardent) kenhowardau H i Sarah, ---- <. . .> S: > Yes, aataapii refers to samma vayama. I believe appamaada primarily refers to samma sati, but as Han has pointed out, all other path factors are implied. There cannot be samma sati in isolation. > > > > Andrew T used to refer to 'composite terms', such as yoniso manasikaara and samvegga. We can't say just one factor only is meant. ----- I am in awe of just about everyone at DSG. Even those I have strong disagreements with (on the m word) know more Abhidhamma terminology than I do. :-) ------- S: > > p.s Ken H, any news of Andrew? I miss his contributions! ------- No, I was hoping he had been lurking and maybe this mention of his name would lure him out. But apparently not. :-( Ken H #103001 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 3:38 pm Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined? kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello all, > <. . .> > > "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: ---------------- Hi all, I know we have discussed this sutta many times in the past. But I forget; did we decide it was about the two extremes and the middle way? ------------ " 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. --This shouldn't be done. --------- Correct me if I am wrong but I think the above is simply saying "I have free will" and "I do not have free will" are the two extremes. ----------------- > "' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. ----------------- And that it is simply saying that right understanding of conditioned dhammas is the middle way. Or is that too easy? :-) Ken H >"This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html #103002 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 4:08 pm Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, > --------- > > Correct me if I am wrong but I think the above is simply saying "I have > free will" and "I do not have free will" are the two extremes. No, KenH. What happens to the citta today, is NOT 100% predetermined solely by past causes. Even though only dhammas arise and cease, without any ultimately existing entity, there is factor of exertion. There is possibility for developing panna and all other wholesome factors. There is no fatalism. With metta, Alex #103003 From: han tun Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] remarks on anusayas. hantun1 Dear Nina, What I have in my books is very little about uppatti.t.thaanavaara. Since you have read many other books I do not think I can contribute anything worthwhile. What I have is just the following: As regards uppatti.t.thaanavaara of kaamaraagaanusaya: Question: Kattha kaamaraagaanusayo anuseti? (in which realm kaamaraagaanusaya lies dormant?) Answer: Kaamadhaatuya dviisu vedanaasu ettha kaamaraagaanusayo anuseti. kaamadhaatuya = kaamadhaatu or eleven kaama-bhuumi; dviisu = two-fold; vedanaasu = 19 kaama-sukha vedanaa and 32 kaama-upekkhaa vedanaa; ettha = these two kaamadhaatu vedanaa; kaamaraagaanusayo = kaamaraagaanusaya; anuseti = lies dormant. Alternate question: Anuseti anuruupa.m kaara.na.m labhitvaa uppajjati? (obtaining which suitable condition or reason, it arises from lying dormant?) Han: Here what I do not understand is the answer to the above question is the same as the question itself, namely, Anuseti anuruupa.m kaara.na.m labhitvaa uppajjati. The same pattern of question and answer is use for other anusayas. -------------------- Further explanation: (1) interms of puggala = kaamaraagaanusaya lies dormant in puthujjana, sotaapanna, sakadaagaami. Not in anaagaami and arahant. (2) in terms of whether abandoned or not = not yet abandoned by sotaapatti-magga and sakadaagaami-magga. Abandoned by anaagaami-magga and arahatta-magga. (3) in terms of place or bhuumi = kaamadhaatu or eleven kaama-bhuumi by means of aramma.na. (4) in terms of vedanaa = 19 kaama-sukha vedanaa and 32 kaama-upekkhaa vedanaa. (5) in terms of Anuseti anuruupa.m kaara.na.m labhitvaa uppajjati = Irrespective of whether aunsaya has paccuppana, upaada, .thii bhanga they are not yet eliminated by magga. Since they are not yet eliminated by magga they can be considered in three time frames, namely, already arisen, presently arising, and will arise. Therefore the Buddha, before asking the question on puggala, asked the question on bhuumi thus: [Kattha kaamaraagaanusayo anuseti?] and answered thus: [Kaamadhaatuya dviisu vedanaasu ettha kaamaraagaanusayo anuseti.] -------------------- Han: I do not know whether my above translation from the Burmese book make sense. No, Nina, I do not know the term, yoggavaacana. I am sorry, I cannot contribute much. Respectfully, Han #103004 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Ken) - In a message dated 12/2/2009 7:09:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: What happens to the citta today, is NOT 100% predetermined solely by past causes. Even though only dhammas arise and cease, without any ultimately existing entity, there is factor of exertion. There is possibility for developing panna and all other wholesome factors. There is no fatalism. =================================== Not quite so easy, I think, Alex. There is, indeed, exertion. But it is conditioned, is it not? And, in fact, it entirely depends on conditions without any aspect of its arising being unconditioned, is that not so? And as for there being the *possibility* for developing pa~n~na etc, is that not also entirely determined by conditions and not random? What do we really mean by "free will"? I think it actually comes down to the fact that there are thought processes that consider and compare alternative actions, matching them against desired goals, and culminating in an act of volition. We *call* that process "deciding" and "exercising free will," but none of it is free in the sense of being random or unconditioned. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103005 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 7:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 12/2/2009 7:09:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > What happens to the citta today, is NOT 100% predetermined solely by past > causes. > > Even though only dhammas arise and cease, without any ultimately existing > entity, there is factor of exertion. There is possibility for developing > panna and all other wholesome factors. There is no fatalism. > =================================== > Not quite so easy, I think, Alex. There is, indeed, exertion. But it > is conditioned, is it not? And, in fact, it entirely depends on conditions > without any aspect of its arising being unconditioned, is that not so? And > as for there being the *possibility* for developing pa~n~na etc, is that not > also entirely determined by conditions and not random? > What do we really mean by "free will"? I think it actually comes down > to the fact that there are thought processes that consider and compare > alternative actions, matching them against desired goals, and culminating in an > act of volition. We *call* that process "deciding" and "exercising free > will," but none of it is free in the sense of being random or unconditioned. > > With metta, > Howard > Hello Howard, all, Thank you for your reply. You may be right. Few things to consider could be, the nature of conditionality. It is true that when a person has a bike and can ride it and the external factors are suitable, he can ride on it. But it is not sufficient cause for riding on a bike. There may be a decision not to ride the bike that day, but there could have been a decision and an action to ride the bike. It is true that to move the right hand one is required to have a functional body with functional right hand. But that itself is not a sole condition to move the right hand, there may be an impersonal volition to move the left hand. Same with exertion: Is it possible for the mind (with certain amount of basic knowledge and understanding) to have a choice to develop kusala or indulge in akusala? When the stream of water is flowing, does it determine the shape of sea bed, or does the sea bed determine the direction of flow of water? They both are, in a sense co-determining factors. With metta, Alex #103006 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 8:02 pm Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined? szmicio Dear Alex, > So in other words, one should heed Buddha's word and make an effort, rather than hope for predetermined Awakening. L: No one denies this. But remember samma-ditthi(right understanding) first. The right effort is always conditioned by right understanding. The only thing to get right effort is to understand, just it. When there is pa~n~na and sati there is automaticaly, right understanding. This is subtle. This is not the conventional effort, this is nama. And thinking in a right way, not wanting to have it or achive or induce is the condition to right effort. There needs to be right understanding first. That's how I feel that. There's no Self in the cycle of birth and dead. Best wishes Lukas #103007 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 3:37 pm Subject: What Causes Failure? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Which Causes produces sure Human Failure? Once at night a luminous deity radiating light came up to the Blessed One, and after having greeted him with joined palms, asked this question: What are the causes of human failure? The Blessed Buddha answered: The successful one is easy to recognize: He admires the true Dhamma... The failed one is also easy to recognize: He despises the true Dhamma... He admires evil men and disregards good men. He approves of bad men's false & failed teaching. This is the main cause of the unsuccessful human! Secondly if any human is fond of sleep, loving society, company and party, and does never employ or train himself, but is lazy, yet easily angry if not satisfied, then that are the causes of his inevitable human failure... Thirdly: If anyone, although able to, does not support his mother or father when they are old, then that is the cause of the unsuccessful human being. Fourthly: If anyone by speaking falsely deceives a priest, recluse or monk, then that dishonesty is the cause of his collapse into a downfall of fiasco... Finally: Anyone who is rich, yet never shares or gives anything to anyone, whether poor or worthy, such miserly mean one dives into disaster... Sn 91-102 <...> Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #103008 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ksheri3 Good Day connie and howard, <...> You mean to say that there is this EXTERIOR FORCE which is intoxicated from BLISS and is picking and choosing a person's future? I am deep into YOGA NIDRA and did have a question for the group: What is the definitive quality which sets Mahamudra appart from Dzogchen? That's a side point, but this quandery is extradinary that people/colleagues in a dharma setting, would even begin to conceptualize this false view. The point here is SANKALPA or intention, no? I tell ya, these hindus have this Yoga Nidra stuff down to a science, which raises a red flag BUT because of the depth and very easily confirmable concepts this "swami" uses/applies I tend to continue reading his material and his insights/vipissana. While he continually rants over the concept that there are no visual images involved in Yoga Nidra I tend toward the opposite which clearly defines IMAGES and CONCEPTIONS which interact with CONSCIOUSNESS. As I've said before, either here or elsewheres, the laws of consciousness which we are bound by in this existance are not applicable in the state of Yoga Nidra meaning that we can take the restraints, the confines, the bounderies, and RE-MANIFEST them in the state of Yoga Nidra. It takes work though! First the practitioner has to accustom theirselves to the fact that they have achieved the state of yoga nidra, which is not an easy thing to do in itself. After the that they have to then begin to explore this new, this different, realm of consciousness, AND THAT IS WHERE MAHAMUDRA COMES INTO PLAY i.e. "2. Path Mahamudra -- it is the direct experience and acclimization to the naure of mind through meditation", which is a process unparalleled since the practitioner works with the TRIKAYA and has to have a good grasp of the three seperate natures of the TRIKAYA meaning the DHARMAKAY, THE SAMBHOGAKAYA AND THE NIRMANAKAYA. I'm seeing this entire process completely now, my personal path of EXPERIENCE and existance since I have always RENOUNCED materialism so that aspect was easy for me to achieve in 1981-82. ---------------------------------- I simply think that it is not the only > consideration and that there are rare circumstances in which it is trumped by > other matters of morality, particularly saving of innocent life. > -------------------------------------------------- > colette: whoever wrote that BLESS YOU. What is TRUTH? I mean that in the sense of our lives today, as we speak. How can any person actually define a TRUTH and not say that this supposed truth is not "contaminated" in one way or another by the DEFILEMENTS which we all are exposed to and have been exposed to since we came out of the incubator that generated our body? As this piece on Tibetan Bhuddism says "seeds or potential" which means that any potentiality is a seed (bija), and that clearly states that all potentiality is a seed which can be nurtured and grown THUS we go back and re-examine the seed which was planted in our micro-processor, mind, and defiles our mind, contaminates our mind, from it's true nature. ----------------------------------------- > > Lying aside, I think we mainly talk to wave our own flags. > ---------------------------------------------------- colette: <...> When I talk I talk to expose to the defilements that are within me and, let my ignorance shine, I apply my technique in a manner to enlighten myself and despell my ignorance so that I may not be ignorant in the future. Sure I wave my flag. Sure, in WEstern terminology, damn, I'm a witch/sorceror I do not partake of such defilements as ORGANIZED RELIGION and this hallucinatory devotion and slavery to this hypothetical CREATOR DEITY. By all means there are countless equalities between my beliefs and practices AND THOSE OF organized religion but they have chosen to deviate, not me. They have chosen a different path and that path is found on the premise of materialism. BUT if they had not taken such a path THEN where could I or you or anybody have come; if we all stayed on this same path then we would be in a never ending circle of samsara at the whims of that deity which holds the Wheel of Samsara, Lord Yama, I believe. "Innocent life" pishaw. have you no thought of Karma? To what degree is "innocence" applied? Good to hear from all of you, Connie, Howard, et al, on this thought. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Connie (and Colette) - > > In a message dated 12/1/2009 1:36:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > nichicon@... writes: > > dear colette, Howard, > being simpleminded/fools/'like madmen', you'd think there'd be some > leniency, but Ignorance is definitely a hell-bent repeat offender. Is it a lie > to say "I don't know", stopping short of "exactly at this moment"? > ---------------------------------------------- > Well, if the intent is to mislead, which it would be in the scenarios > we are considering, I'd say, yes, it is. > ----------------------------------------------- <...> #103009 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ksheri3 Hi Howard, > I would lie to Nazis and any other criminals to save innocent people > from attack. If you think that is comparable to Nazi actions, so be it. I do > not. You are missing my point completely. Look, the Nazis made a reality out of a lie. Who is to say that the supposed AMERICAN DREAM is not just as false as the truth that the Nazis manifested reality out of? <...> If you add a chemical such as the chemical, the drug, LIES to a mixture of lies, then there will be no reaction, no catalyst, it will simply exist as a mixture or even as oil and water mixted together. BUT, if you add TRUTH to the chemical foundation of LIES, then sparks fly. REactions take place. lets hypothesize that those who tell the lies experience the reaction which occurs when TRUTH is added to the reality of LIES. ah, then, can we not see the chemical reaction which takes place in the body, the vessel (to use/apply kabbalistic terminology), when TRUTH is added to the reality of the liar? a subdivision is the same as a human body, it's a petri dish that harbors chemicals. Shall we ask the Phillistines how they transported wine and oils across great distances if not through the application of "vessels" colette <...> > ===================================== > I would lie to Nazis and any other criminals to save innocent people > from attack. If you think that is comparable to Nazi actions, so be it. I do > not. > > With metta, > Howard <...> #103010 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 11:54 am Subject: Habituation as a Virtue ksheri3 Hi connie, Isn't habitual behavior the same as ritual behavior, I mean the same practices, the same procedures are applied thus making the typist who suffers from carpel tunnel syndrone because of repeating the same motions, isn't the same as the heroin addict who injects drugs into their veins applying the same procedure each time? How about the coffee drinker who gets up each morning and performs the exact same movements to make themselves a cup of coffee? How about the expressway in the morning where we can find bottlenecks slowing the flow of chemicals through the veins of the transportation system? They are all ritual or habitual behaviors THEREFORE AS I HAVE SCREAMED SINCE THE EARLY 1980S IN SAN DIEGO AND LOS ANGELES what is the difference between a drug addict searching for drugs and a slave of organized religion searching for more members to their church? Intent has been PERVERTED. At one time theology and religion was without question but along comes these drug dependent like GALILEO who could not satisfy their need for the drug of truth BECAUSE they had found that the drug that the organized religion was giving them was false. We can go into this unending debate of action/reaction that organized religion of the West has always exhibited which will just get us nowhere fast or long, however we wish to abuse ourselves through an endless debate. That will not get us anywhere. GO TO THE FOUNDATIONS OF WHAT YOU HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED AS TRUE or TRUTH and start your own examination. <...> What I'm saying, connie, is that this thing called THE TRUTH is so transient and dependent. You have to take the chance to go back and review the testimony: does the unniverse revolve around the earth, is the earth really flat and you could fall off the earth if you go too far away from the church's sphere of influence, greedy hands that take your money? Go back and start from GROUND ZERO. hey, we're getting close to 2012 and we have tons of doomsday sayers throughout the world, are you gonna believe them? <...> Just be serious about this study. C'mon, there's stuff that I cannot accept because of my personal experience with death and with pain but that doesn't mean that all the stuff is false <...> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > dear colette, Howard, > being simpleminded/fools/'like madmen', you'd think there'd be some leniency, but Ignorance is definitely a hell-bent repeat offender. Is it a lie to say "I don't know", stopping short of "exactly at this moment"? <...> #103011 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 12:26 pm Subject: Re: conditions through temporal abyss ksheri3 Hi Alex and Nina, Great thought that the moderators had, to put your "thank yous" in front of me so that I could find out what you're so thankful about. WOW, this is an excellent point to examine! As usual, it's Nina because she has had so much experience with this stuff and does a good job of "translation" from what I understand. > 2nd) How can materiality, intervene? What does that mean? Does it store some mental knowledge (such as when to come out from nirodha samapatti)? colette: this is exactly where I'm at in Yoga Nidra! I feel the obscurations that this "swami" is manifesting when he constantly rants that Yoga Nidra does not possess images or "things" (my interpretation of the words) which I say is completely and uterly false. Maybe my experience with the explanation of Yoga Nidra is not that good yet, but I'm categorizing it with a type of ASTRAL PROJECTION. And I'm clearly specifying that REALITY EXISTS and CONSCIOUSNESS EXISTS in this "altered state of consciusness". How can materiality intervene? Well, it's a resultant phenomena from the samskaras, the defilements, which the mind possesses and manifests to create obscurations. It took me a few years after my accident to actually grasp that there are two different worlds, two different realities that I have to cognize and that the reality wich I had become accustomed to, as say, yoga nidra, astral projection, etc, is not the most important reality, yet it is the most important reality. Somehow, the mind has the ability to manifest a force which manifests reality, rupas, etc. baubles and trinkets. It's tough but ya gotta let go of this pre-conceived notion of reality eventhough the only thing you'll ever be conscious of is reality. I say this in the exact same sense that I said that "reality is maliable" it's like playdo, a person's mind can actually make things defy the laws of gravity, can make things disappear or appear, this conditioning that we, as humans, submit ourselves to in the form or education, etc, is false yet it is the only reality. Sorry, no time for Zen right now. Yes, how does the mind bring forth that which is non-existant into our existant reality? Thank you for boiling my blood enough to get this to rise to the surface where I could verbalize it! From what little I've had time to research it has to do with the mind's electromagnetic fields and potentials. You also raise the issue of the STORE-HOUSE CONSCIOUSNESS, the Alaya-Vijnana, THANK YOU. Another monumental concept which I don't have the time to speak of now but the ice has been broken and you and Nina are very kind to have afforded me such bliss! Thank you both. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Dear Nina, pt, all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear pt, > > ------- > > N: As U Narada in his Guide to Conditional Relations (p. 20) > > explains: Proximity Force is not destroyed by the intervention of > > Materiality. : "Then, after emerging from this attainment, the > > Anaagaami fruition consciousness arises. Although metariality has > > intervened between the two mental states, faultless neither- > > perception-nor-non-perception impulsion is related to Anaagaamii > > Fruition-consciousness by proximity condiiton. This is stated in >the > > > > 1)What about during Arupa loka stages where there isn't any physical body (and I wonder what kind of materiality can there be)? <...> #103012 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Without the Walls (Cy 10-11) egberdina Hi connie, 2009/12/2 connie > dear pt and all, > > And in the king's residence he accepted a great almsgiving. > 11. Those ghosts then drew near and waited in the hope 'Now[205] the king > will dedicate the almsgiving to us; now he will dedicate it'. But he thought > only about a dwelling place for the Blessed One thus 'Where should the > Blessed One live?', and he did not dedicate that almsgiving to anyone at > all. The ghosts, finding their hope disappointed, made a horrible screeching > in the night round the king's residence. I seriously don't get it. Ghosts can think and screech, but they can't talk? Cheers Herman #103013 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Different cittas. How they work. Feel free to comment. egberdina Hi connie, 2009/12/1 connie > Dear Herman, Lukas, > > > connie: Citta's speed is immeasurable... > > H: I agree with this, but perhaps for different reasons than you :-) Speed > is a measurement, a comparison of one thing to another. In the realm of > citta, there is no citta to compare another citta with. The concept of speed > simply does not apply to citta. > > c: There might be the recollection of a past citta's span by a current one, > I suppose... or comparison with a rupa's. How do we understand the idea of > impermanence or change at all? > That is a very good question. My half-educated understanding of what I see is that change is an observation of difference, a comparison between what has just past and what just passed prior to that. What is observed is that only one aspect of the whole field of experience has fallen away, and another aspect arisen, in the context of everything else remaining relatively unchanged. To notice change, something has to remain unchanged. The same with measurement of speed. One has to be external to the "system" being measured. One notices movement/change only in relation to something else. That is not a possibility in the citta theory, as the present citta is all there is. > > > > beyond the speed of light/rupa. > > H: Perhaps, depending on what you mean, but certainly not faster than > light/rupa. > > c: Surely! ...nothing changes faster than citta. lol, light is so slow > that stars we pretend we're looking at have been dead 'forever'. > Yeah, but still that light is a vibration that occurs billions of times per second, yet all that citta sees is a colour?? That's downright retarded :-) Cheers Herman #103014 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 10:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 6. egberdina Hi NIna, 2009/12/1 Nina van Gorkom > Dear friends, > > Some people are born in countries where there is war and famine, > others in countries where there is peace and prosperity. This does > not happen by chance; kamma, a deed performed in the past, is the > cause. This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed? Cheers Herman #103015 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 10:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/12/2 truth_aerator > Dear Sarah, all, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > > Dear Alex, > > > > #102860 > > > > Yes, a good first step! Actually, I hadn't read this message when I > suggested you breakdown and group the various ~naanas. Unfortunately the > diacritics shown up as squiggles when I print it out to discuss further. > > > > What is the difference between 'arahatship' and 'bare arahatship'? > > Bare Arhatship = no abhinnas, aruppas or Patisambhida. > > > > > I'm not I would refer to the 11 ~naanas you list as 'steps'... > > At least some of them are progressive steps where one supports the next > one. Though the conditionality isn't always linear and strait. > I don't know as much about arahats as you, but you seem to be on the wrong side of the Theravadin position here. Controverted Point—That [the converted man] gives up the corruptions piecemeal <....> Again, was it not said by the Exalted One:— ' Whenever, 0 bhikkhus, for the Ariyan disciple there doth arise the stainless, flawless Eye of the Norm—that whatsoever by its nature may happen, may also 'by its nature cease—then with the arising of that vision doth he put away these three fetters:—belief in a soul, doubt, and the contagion of mere rule and ritual' ? Is the Suttanta thus ? Hence it must not be said that the religious man gives up the corruptions piecemeal. and Controverted Point. — That penetration is acquired in segmentary order. From the Commentary*—By thoughtlessly considering such Suttas as— 4 Little by little, one by one, as pass The moments, gradually let the wise etc.,1 the Andhakas, Sabbatthivadins, Sammitiyas, and Bhadrayanikas have acquired the opinion that, in realizing the Four Paths, the corruptions were put away by so many slices as each of the Four Truths was intuited (cf. I. 4). Cheers Herman #103016 From: Herman Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? egberdina Hi Lukas, 2009/12/3 Lukas > Dear Alex, > > > So in other words, one should heed Buddha's word and make an effort, > rather than hope for predetermined Awakening. > > L: No one denies this. But remember samma-ditthi(right understanding) > first. The right effort is always conditioned by right understanding. The > only thing to get right effort is to understand, just it. > Yes, but a person of right understanding is an ariyan. > When there is pa~n~na and sati there is automaticaly, right understanding. > This is subtle. This is not the conventional effort, this is nama. And > thinking in a right way, not wanting to have it or achive or induce is the > condition to right effort. There needs to be right understanding first. > That's how I feel that. > So are you saying, just be an ariyan? Cheers Herman #103021 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 6. ashkenn2k Dear Herman hmm, I smell a catch somewhere :-) There is no doer in ultmate sense but there is a past citta accompany by aksuala roots that cause the aksuala kamma that reap the deed now. Cheers Ken O >> >> Some people are born in countries where there is war and famine, >> others in countries where there is peace and prosperity. This does >> not happen by chance; kamma, a deed performed in the past, is the >> cause. > >This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed? > #103022 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 1:53 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives, 316, 10, and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, 316, sutta 10. Walshe DN 33.2.1(10) 'Five impossible things: An Arahant is incapable of (a) deliberately taking the life of a living being; (b) taking what is not given so as to constitute theft; (c) sexual intercourse; (d) telling a deliberate lie; (e) storing up goods for sensual indulgence as he did formerly in the household life. (Pa~nca abhabba.t.thaanaani. Abhabbo, aavuso, khii.naasavo bhikkhu sa~ncicca paa.na.m jiivitaa voropetu.m. Abhabbo khii.naasavo bhikkhu adinna.m theyyasa'nkhaata.m aadiyitu.m [aadaatu.m (syaa. ka.m. pii.)]. Abhabbo khii.naasavo bhikkhu methuna.m dhamma.m pa.tisevitu.m. Abhabbo khii.naasavo bhikkhu sampajaanamusaa bhaasitu.m. Abhabbo khii.naasavo bhikkhu sannidhikaaraka.m kaame paribhu~njitu.m, seyyathaapi pubbe aagaarikabhuuto.) ------- N: The co states that the text, ‘ An Arahant is incapable of deliberately taking the life of a living being’, etc. is the heading of the teaching here. But also for the sotaapanna it is impossible to kill etc. The text states thus for the sake of blame for the ordinary person and praise for the arahat. The ordinary person who kills his mother etc. is contemptible. But the arahat is praiseworthy since he is unable to kill ants etc. ****** N: The source of siila is the citta. When we are listening to the Dhamma we come to see the danger of all akusala, even when it is slight. It is pa~n~naa that sees the danger of ignorance and of all akusala. Pa~n~naa is the condition for the growth of hiri, shame of akusala, and ottappa, fear of blame that sees the danger of akusala. Ignorance is the root of all that is unwholesome and by the development of pa~n~naa ignorance is eliminated stage by stage. The sotaapanna has eradicated the wrong view of self and he cannot commit akusala kamma that produces an unhappy rebirth. It is clinging to an idea of self, that causes one not being concerned for the welfare of others. When someone is only intent on his own happiness and comfort it may be a condition to hurt other beings. By this sutta we are reminded of the power of pa~n~naa that can eventually eradicate all that is unwholesome. Pa~n~naa above all conditions the growth of siila. ******** Nina. #103023 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:00 am Subject: Re:Q. [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Dear Herman, Op 3-dec-2009, om 7:05 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven: > This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed? ------ N: I think you know the answer: no doer, no person who acts. There were conditions for such or such activities. Perhaps hard to accept? We are always inclined to think of my action, good or bad, 'I did this'. By listening to the Dhamma understanding grows and it is understanding that can detect such thoughts. Nina. #103024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] remarks on anusayas. nilovg Dear Han, thank you for your remarks. Op 3-dec-2009, om 3:40 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > What I have is just the following: > > As regards uppatti.t.thaanavaara of kaamaraagaanusaya: > Question: > Kattha kaamaraagaanusayo anuseti? > (in which realm kaamaraagaanusaya lies dormant?) > > Answer: > Kaamadhaatuya dviisu vedanaasu ettha kaamaraagaanusayo anuseti. > kaamadhaatuya = kaamadhaatu or eleven kaama-bhuumi; > dviisu = two-fold; > vedanaasu = 19 kaama-sukha vedanaa and 32 kaama-upekkhaa vedanaa; > ettha = these two kaamadhaatu vedanaa; > kaamaraagaanusayo = kaamaraagaanusaya; > anuseti = lies dormant. ------- N:I still have trouble with kaama-dhaatu: it means the realm of sensuous existence, but it may also refer to the sensuous plane of citta, thus kaamaavacara cittas? But what you quote from the Burmese texts it is here plane of existence? I am thinking of the Pali: kaamadhaatuyaa dviisu vedanaasu anusayamaano , thus, lying dormant with the two feelings belonging to (of) kaamadhaatu. Here I am inclined to think of plane of citta. Also further on there is the explanation by way of puggala and by way of bhuumi as you indicate. That comes later on in the text. ---------- > > H: Alternate question: > Anuseti anuruupa.m kaara.na.m labhitvaa uppajjati? > (obtaining which suitable condition or reason, it arises from lying > dormant?) > > Han: Here what I do not understand is the answer to the above > question is the same as the question itself, namely, > Anuseti anuruupa.m kaara.na.m labhitvaa uppajjati. ------- N: It sounds as a confirmation. We can use the word Aamanta, yes, sure. > > -------- > H: Further explanation: > > (1) interms of puggala = kaamaraagaanusaya lies dormant in > puthujjana, sotaapanna, sakadaagaami. Not in anaagaami and arahant. > > (2) in terms of whether abandoned or not = not yet abandoned by > sotaapatti-magga and sakadaagaami-magga. Abandoned by anaagaami- > magga and arahatta-magga. > > (3) in terms of place or bhuumi = kaamadhaatu or eleven kaama- > bhuumi by means of aramma.na. > > (4) in terms of vedanaa = 19 kaama-sukha vedanaa and 32 kaama- > upekkhaa vedanaa. > > (5) in terms of Anuseti anuruupa.m kaara.na.m labhitvaa uppajjati = > Irrespective of whether aunsaya has paccuppana, upaada, .thii > bhanga they are not yet eliminated by magga. Since they are not yet > eliminated by magga they can be considered in three time frames, > namely, already arisen, presently arising, and will arise. ------- N: Here I think we have to keep in mind that the latent tendency itself does not arise. When there is an opportunity it conditions the sensuous desire accompanying akusala citta that is pariyutthaana killesa. A good reminder how powerful the latent tendencies are. So often there are opportunities for them: a pleasant sight, sound, etc. And also happy feeling, we find happy feeling so important. We wish to have it all the time. --------- > > Therefore the Buddha, before asking the question on puggala, asked > the question on bhuumi thus: [Kattha kaamaraagaanusayo anuseti?] > and answered thus: [Kaamadhaatuya dviisu vedanaasu ettha > kaamaraagaanusayo anuseti.] > > -------------------- > > Han: I do not know whether my above translation from the Burmese > book make sense. ------- N: Yes, it does. Discussion about this subject is always useful, one discovers more aspects. -------- Nina. #103025 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:03 am Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 10-11) nichiconn hi Herman, H: I seriously don't get it. Ghosts can think and screech, but they can't talk? c: What, who said that? ;) Ask one. peace, connie #103026 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:27 am Subject: Different cittas. How they work. Feel free to comment. nichiconn dear Herman, c: How do we understand the idea of impermanence or change at all? > H: ... snip ... What is observed is that only one aspect of the whole field of experience has fallen away, and another aspect arisen, in the context of everything else remaining relatively unchanged. To notice change, something has to remain unchanged. ...cut.. > When there is citta (& its cetasikas), there is only one citta at a time per individual stream I'm ok with, but taking the moment of contact with it's object, I can't say, precisely, 'the present citta is all there is' but say it I probably do. I wonder about only one aspect changing in a still relatively unstable whole field (as in all 6 senses represented at once?). ;) - when time stands still! til then, it's 'twinkle, twinkle, little star' reminding us that most of the time we're quite sightless... drawing isolated events into constellations. peace, connie #103027 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:45 am Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 14-17) nichiconn dear pt and all, here's a gruesome one for your enjoyment! The Commentary: [Stanza 1] 14. In this first stanza (see below), it is the further sides of the walls that is called without the walls (tiroku.d.daa). They stand [and wait] (ti.t.thanti): this phrase asserts their standing and denies their sitting, and so on. Now just as they say of one who goes to the further side of enclosures and to the further side of mountains that 'he goes unhindered through enclosures (tiropaakaara"m), through mountains (tiropabbata"m)' (D i 78), so too here he said of those standing at the further side of the walls without the walls they stand and wait (tiroku.d.desu ti.t.thanti). 15. And at the junctions and road-forks (sandhisinghaa.takesu): here it is both quadruple [junctions of] carriage-roads and also house-junctions and wall-junctions and lighting-junctions (slits) that are called 'junctions' (sandhi), and it is triple [junctions of] carriage-roads that are caled 'road-forks' (singhaa.taka). Combining these together into one [compound] he said and at the junctions and road-forks. 16. They wait beside the jambs of gates (dvaarabaahaasu ti.t.thanti): they stand near the jambs of city gates and house doors. Returning to their erstwhile homes (aagantvaana saka"m ghara"m): here 'erstwhile homes' means both a former relative's house and their own homes in which they formerly lived as owners. They come perceiving both as their own home, and that is why 'returning to their erstwhile homes' is said. 17. [So the Blessed One showed the king] the many ghosts with their hideous, deformed and dreadful bodies, who had come to Bimbisaara's residence perceiving it as their own house since it was the house of a former relative of theirs although they had not previously lived there, and were standing without the walls, at the junctions and road-forks and beside the jambs of gates. Their existence thus was co-essential with the fruit of envy and avarice. There were some wearing long dishevelled [207] beards and hair, swarthy-faced, with loose-jointed dangling emaciated rough blackened limbs, who looked like palmyra trees scorched here and there by forest fires; there were some whose bodies were [inwardly] consumbed by flames of fire that, as it surged up from their bellies with the kindling of hunger and thirst, belched from their mouths. There were some that, owing to their having a gullet no bigger than a needle's eye and a mountainous paunch, were unable to swallow enough drink and food for their wants even when they got it, and so had to relish their own famishedness and parchedness for want of other tastes. And there were some that, when they found any blood or matter or oil-of-the-joints oozing from the orifices of each others' burst boils and carbuncles or those of other creatures, savoured it as though it were ambrosia. So he uttered this stanza Tiroku.d.desu ti.t.thanti sandhisanghaa.takesu ca Dvaaarabaahaasu ti.t.thanti aagantvaana saka"m ghara"m. 'Without the walls they stand and wait, 'And at the junctions and road-forks; 'Returning to their erstwhile homes, 'They wait beside the jambs of gates'. And when he had said this, showing these ghosts, he then uttered the second stanza 'But when a rich feast is prepared', showing how grim was [the result of the action] done by them. peace, connie #103028 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:49 am Subject: The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 6. nichiconn dear Herman and All, H: This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed? the book: If kamma is the cause of birth, what is then the role of the parents? c: Some parent(s) are more akin to "countries where there is war and famine, others ... where there is peace and prosperity" - but all are alike in being "merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world" where "A man who sees will see [only] name-and-form; having seen, he will know only these things ... The brahman, considering, does not submit to figments. He does not follow views, [and] he has no association with knowledge, and knowing commonplace opinions he is indifferent to them, [saying] "Let others take them up" [Sn909-911]. Isn't pride of birth one of the first things to go? peace, connie #103029 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Planet Earth a result of Kamma (kammavipaka)? sarahprocter... Hi Alex (& Herman), --- On Tue, 1/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >A: But if we adopt an Abhidhammic explanations which denies literal external > > earth/water/ fire/air elements, by making them a body&mind sense perceptions > > than Earth is a result of past kamma. Why? ... s: I haven't seen any "Abhidhammic explanations" which deny "external earth/water/fire/air elements" or any that suggest external pathavii dhaatu is a result of past kamma. What's your source? ... > > Because bodily feeling of 3 Elements + mental concept of Water, ARE > > resultant of past kamma and ignorance. Feeling of hardness, softeness, heat > > or cold, this or that visual perception, etc are kamma vipaka - right? Thus > > all what we take "Earth" to be is Kamma-Vipaka? *Concept* of "Planet Earth" > > is mind made... ... S: None of this makes sense. External earth (pathavii dhaatu) is conditioned by temperature. On account of this element, of course we conjecture in manifold ways, including the wish "to gain dominion and sovereignty over the soil". This doesn't mean that pathavii is not a reality. ... >H: From the Kathavatthu (which means no discussion will be entered into. > Because it is definitely right :-)) .... [S: I have to say I never thought I'd see the day that I'd read you and Alex quoting and discussing not only the Kathavatthu, but also its commentary notes:-)) Next we'll have you guys, Howard and others saying you trust it's Buddha-vacana (word of the Buddha) - well, maybe a little later for that....:-))] ... > >H:> Controverted Point.—That land is a result of action. > From the Commentary. —Inasmuch as there is human action directed > to gain dominion and sovereignty over the soil, some, like the > Andhakas, hold that the earth itself is a resultant of such action (or > karma). The argument goes to show that (1) land has nothing in > common with the sentient results which are caused by karma ; .... S: Right on target, Herman.. ... >A: The thing is that according to DSG ABhidhamma, the literal soil/Earth does not ultimately exist . It is tactile perception, or mental concept (of water). ... S: If the pathavii (earth element) did not exist, it would be impossible to touch it and conceive about it. OK, a great quote is coming up for you in my next post... ... >Since consciousness is kammavipaka, Earth as is present in the consciousness is kamma or kammavipaka. ... S: sorry, this is all a mix-up. There's no earth present in consciousness, not earth which is kamma or kammavipaka.... Read on.... Metta Sarah ======= #103030 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Planet Earth a result of Kamma (kammavipaka)? sarahprocter... Dear Alex, See what I quoted to you before (in the second more detailed message) and this quote from the first message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20140 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101033 >S:We read in the Mulapariyaya Sutta about the uninstructed worldling who 'perceives earth as eart' (pathavi"m pathavito sa~njaanaati) and so on, not understanding these as rupas, as elements. In the commentary we read that earth (pathavii) is fourfold in meaning and that all the meanings are relevant in this context. These four meanings are: 1. characteristic earth (lakkha.napathavii) as in "What, friends, is the internal earth element? that which is internal, belonging to oneself, hard, solid" (M28) 2. Composite earth (sasambhaarapathavi) as in "If he should dig the earth, or cause the earth to be dug" (Viniv33). The 20 parts of the body beginning with head-haris etc, and the external elements such as iron and copper are also included in composite earth 3. Objectified earth (aaramma.napathavi) as in "Someone perceives the earth-kasina" (D33), where the arammanapathavi is the earth-kasina or earth sign (nimittapathavii) 4. Earth as conventional designation (sammutipathavii) as in when somebody who obtains jhana with the earth-kasina as basis is reborn in a deva realm and is called an "earth deity". ..... We also read a little later that the external earth element is "whatever is external, and is hard, solid, hardness, the state of being hard, exterior, not kammically acquired, such as : iron, copper, tin, led, silver, pearl, gem........rock, mountain". ... [New S: Note the explicit references to "external earth element".] ... This is the same for the other elements, regardless of whether they are experienced or not. Of course it is the 'conceiving and delight' and the wrong view on account of the various elements that is the root of all harm and therefore the emphasis in the Teachings. We read further: "For what reason does the worldling conceive earth? Why does he conceive and delight in earth?" the answer is: "Because it has not been fully understood by him."< *** Pls ask if it's not clear and I'll add to my pile of messages waiting for replies:-) Metta Sarah ======= #103031 From: "Icaro" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) icarofranca Hi Colette. Respectfully butting in... > What is the definitive quality which sets Mahamudra appart from >Dzogchen? You will note that both oh these ways of mindfulness are very alike. Both of them point out to the real stuff of the illuminated mind. But they are different: Dzogchen techniques are a passage to act of Guru Rimpoche´s Tantra teachings. The Mahamudra is the same, with traditions which begin with masters like Tilopa and Naropa, with his "Mahamudra´s song". In both of them you may consider their mindfulness techniques as the following of a script - Mahamudra´s song or Guru Rimpoche´s Tantra - as the same basis some people consider the sheer Abhidhamma reading as a mode of Vipassana. Mindfulness techniques exist at large in orient - is like comparing the famous Queen Elisabeth´s II half-pound gold english coin with the classical "indian" north-american gold coin or the SA gold krugerand pairings ( at money exchange ratings of the day). All of them are made of circa 80%-90% Gold. (But the classical Maple Leaf gold coin of Canada - more than 90% of a full ounce gold - is a best for collectors, I may guarantee you!^_^) My best regards, Icaro (I´ve expurged the original text of some typos. I hope exterminate all my English erros on reaching Nibbana!!!) #103032 From: Herman Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Without the Walls (Cy 10-11) egberdina Hi connie, Well, what a fool am I. I go ask a serious question about your dungeons and dragons quotes, and shouldn't really have expected a serious answer. Ciao Herman 2009/12/3 connie > > > hi Herman, > > H: I seriously don't get it. Ghosts can think and screech, but they can't > talk? > > c: What, who said that? ;) Ask one. > > #103033 From: Herman Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 6. egberdina Hi connie, 2009/12/3 connie > dear Herman and All, > > H: This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed? > > the book: If kamma is the cause of birth, what is then the role of the > parents? > > c: Some parent(s) are more akin to "countries where there is war and > famine, others ... where there is peace and prosperity" - but all are alike > in being "merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common > use in the world" where "A man who sees will see [only] name-and-form; > having seen, he will know only these things ... The brahman, considering, > does not submit to figments. He does not follow views, [and] he has no > association with knowledge, and knowing commonplace opinions he is > indifferent to them, [saying] "Let others take them up" [Sn909-911]. > > Isn't pride of birth one of the first things to go? > > Go and ask someone who thinks they were born. Cheers Herman #103034 From: Herman Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 4:04 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 6. egberdina Hello Nina, 2009/12/3 Nina van Gorkom > Dear Herman, > Op 3-dec-2009, om 7:05 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven: > > > This deed performed in the past, was there a doer of that deed? > ------ > N: I think you know the answer: no doer, no person who acts. There > were conditions for such or such activities. Perhaps hard to accept? > We are always inclined to think of my action, good or bad, 'I did > this'. By listening to the Dhamma understanding grows and it is > understanding that can detect such thoughts. > > Thank for your answer, and yes, that was the answer I expected you would give. It is not so hard to accept if one understands that your answer is a kind of view, an attitude. It is a retrospective view of things, looking back a deed is just something that happened, like a tree falling over. You say people are born into poverty because of past deeds, and that means to me, in the context of what you say, that people are born into poverty because things have happened in the past. That is very acceptable and comfortable, things just happened, nothing can change that past. An other view or attitude that is possible is the prospective view, a forward looking view. It is characterised by the thought "what should be done next?" In whatever situation, whether a poor person, a sick person, a beautiful or a prosperous person is seen, or no-one at all, the prospective attitude is available, it can be asked "what deed should be done next?" This is quite an unpleasant and uncomfortable attitude when adopted, because there is always going to be enormous doubt and uncertainty about whatever happens next, and the consequences following on from that happening. (As an aside, some imagine they are able to know the present, as it stands. This, of course, is an illusion, we only remember what is already past, or imagine all kinds of unknown futures.) Now, as you know, there are two kinds of people, those who say there are kinds of people, and those who don't :-) But seriously, is there any use in differentiating between different kinds of beings, if all that happens, simply happens? Is there a difference between being a tree and a human? Cheers Herman #103035 From: han tun Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 4:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] remarks on anusayas hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your reply. > Nina: I still have trouble with kaama-dhaatu: it means the realm of sensuous existence, but it may also refer to the sensuous plane of citta, thus kaamaavacara cittas? But what you quote from the Burmese texts it is here plane of existence? I am thinking of the Pali: kaamadhaatuyaa dviisu vedanaasu anusayamaano, thus, lying dormant with the two feelings belonging to (of) kaamadhaatu. Here I am inclined to think of plane of citta. Also further on there is the explanation by way of puggala and by way of bhuumi as you indicate. That comes later on in the text. Han: I agree with your reasoning, especially when you consider the anusaya lying dormant with vedanaa. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi is also very sure that it is the planes of cittas. But one difficulty with the Burmese books is that we use many Pali words untranslated into Burmese language. For example, bhuumi as bhuumi, and kaamadhaatu as kaamadhaatu, without translation into Burmese. So it is difficult to spell it out. It could well be the planes of cittas as you said, and the planes of existence may come later. -------------------- > Nina: Here I think we have to keep in mind that the latent tendency itself does not arise. When there is an opportunity it conditions the sensuous desire accompanying akusala citta that is pariyutthaana killesa. A good reminder how powerful the latent tendencies are. So often there are opportunities for them: a pleasant sight, sound, etc. And also happy feeling, we find happy feeling so important. We wish to have it all the time. Han: I completely agree with your above statement. You have also elaborated nicely in your message on Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 11. Respectfully, Han #103036 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/2/2009 10:18:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, Thank you for your reply. You may be right. Few things to consider could be, the nature of conditionality. It is true that when a person has a bike and can ride it and the external factors are suitable, he can ride on it. But it is not sufficient cause for riding on a bike. There may be a decision not to ride the bike that day, but there could have been a decision and an action to ride the bike. -------------------------------------------------------- Still not so easy, Alex, it seems to me. Yes, there might be a decision not to ride that day. But every aspect of the decision was conditioned and not random. Also when you say that there could have been a decision and an action to ride the bike, that is true, HAD conditions been different - but they were NOT different, they were what they were. --------------------------------------------------------------------- It is true that to move the right hand one is required to have a functional body with functional right hand. But that itself is not a sole condition to move the right hand, there may be an impersonal volition to move the left hand. -------------------------------------------------------- There may be all *sorts* of conditions, and many of them play a role, but whatever does occur is determined by conditions, and whatever conditions occur are the only basis for what CAN occur. (Unless, of course, one accepts the notion that events can occur randomly, without precondition.) ---------------------------------------------------------- Same with exertion: Is it possible for the mind (with certain amount of basic knowledge and understanding) to have a choice to develop kusala or indulge in akusala? ---------------------------------------------------------- What do you MEAN by having a choice? I think the only reasonable meaning that can be given to that is that a (conditioned!) process of deliberation, comparing and contrasting alternative modes of action, can, when conditions are suitable, culminate in a specific decision and act of will. It is all still conditioned and not random. We simply don't *know* the outcome in advance. ----------------------------------------------------------- When the stream of water is flowing, does it determine the shape of sea bed, or does the sea bed determine the direction of flow of water? They both are, in a sense co-determining factors. ---------------------------------------------------------- So? It is a very interesting point, that coupling, but what do you infer from it? ---------------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ================================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103037 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 12:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 12/2/2009 11:57:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: Hi Howard, > I would lie to Nazis and any other criminals to save innocent people > from attack. If you think that is comparable to Nazi actions, so be it. I do > not. You are missing my point completely. ---------------------------------------------------- I'm sorry. --------------------------------------------------- Look, the Nazis made a reality out of a lie. Who is to say that the supposed AMERICAN DREAM is not just as false as the truth that the Nazis manifested reality out of? <...> --------------------------------------------------- I think there is hardly a legitimate comparison. ---------------------------------------------------- If you add a chemical such as the chemical, the drug, LIES to a mixture of lies, then there will be no reaction, no catalyst, it will simply exist as a mixture or even as oil and water mixted together. BUT, if you add TRUTH to the chemical foundation of LIES, then sparks fly. REactions take place. lets hypothesize that those who tell the lies experience the reaction which occurs when TRUTH is added to the reality of LIES. ah, then, can we not see the chemical reaction which takes place in the body, the vessel (to use/apply kabbalistic terminology), when TRUTH is added to the reality of the liar? a subdivision is the same as a human body, it's a petri dish that harbors chemicals. Shall we ask the Phillistines how they transported wine and oils across great distances if not through the application of "vessels" ------------------------------------------------------ I was never much good at chemistry, Colette. The bottom line: I do not equate all lying. ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103038 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 6:17 am Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined? abhidhammika Dear Alex, Howard, Herman, Uncle U Han Tun How are you? I suspect that K Sujin and her students and / or sympathizers seem to be deviating from the very Buddhist view itself, despite their attachment to the Right Understanding as their defense. What they do not realize, unfortunately, is that they also conceive the concept of the Right Understnading wrongly. Put it bluntly, they could not differentiate between the Magga level Right Understanding and the Learnt level Right Understanding, which is merely Sutamayañaa.na. Perhaps, because of their confusion about the Right Understanding, K Sujin and KS folks seem to be holding a non-Buddhist view very similar to Niga.n.thaa without knowing it themselves. I did try to pin Sukin and Sarah down on the issue of the Right Understanding being presented by them as though it were predetermined. But, they both were clever enough to wriggle out of my interrogation like eels would do. So, now, when I see Alex, Howard, and Herman bringing up this issue, you three have my Saadhu 3 times. If you questioned them repeatedly from different angles, it is very likely that they could reassess their position and, hopefully, realise their view being wrong allalong, and, hopefully again, embrace the mainstream Theravada position. Theravada is the greatest and the highest! Keep up the good work, you guys! With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello all, [1] Th.—Is then the cause of causes predetermined [by something else]? You deny. For if you assent, you commit yourself to this: that, because of the continued eventuating due to endless causation, there can never be an end made to 111, nor any cutting off the round of rebirth, nor any Nibbana free from the residual stuff of rebirth. [2] Again, is the cause of any one of the five aggregates (body, mind) predetermined ? If you assent, you commit yourself to the admission that the cause itself is predetermined by something else. And if you deny—and I insist, and take no denial—you, assenting, commit yourself to this—that there is, for this endless causation, no making an end of ill, no cutting off of the round of rebirth, no .Nibbana without stuff of rebirth. . . ." > With metta, Alex #103039 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 6:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator Hi Howard, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > -------------------------------------------------------- > Still not so easy, Alex, it seems to me. Yes, there might be a > decision not to ride that day. But every aspect of the decision >was conditioned and not random. Lets say a citta has approximately the same of understanding and akusala tendency. That citta has all the conditions to produce an akusala volition or kusala volition. Can it decide to at least attempt to produce kusala volition? (Of course external factors may counter act it). Of course, examining POST Factum one can say exactly why this or that has happened. But at the moment just prior to the decision of the citta, the outcome could have went either way. How do you interpret this sutta: ""Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html With metta, Alex #103040 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 7:05 am Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > There's no Self in the cycle of birth and dead. > > Best wishes > Lukas > Dear Lukas, Howard, Nina, all, I fully agree in the above. By deeper analysis, there is just mental and material process happening. The issue is: Can citta (an impersonal process) choose to develop kusala, even though there are conditions for akusala *also*? While it is possible, post factum, to say that "...such and such a result was due to this or that cause...", just prior to making a decision, can Citta will either way (assuming it has conditions to will either way)? With metta, Alex #103041 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Planet Earth a result of Kamma (kammavipaka)? truth_aerator Dear Sarah, (and all) Thank you for your reply. So as I understand it, there is according to your understanding external, mind independent rupa, mind independent soil, oceans, fire, wind, that can blow away villages, etc etc such as described in MN28. With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > See what I quoted to you before (in the second more detailed message) and this quote from the first message: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/20140 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/101033 > > >S:We read in the Mulapariyaya Sutta about the uninstructed worldling who > 'perceives earth as eart' (pathavi"m pathavito sa~njaanaati) and so on, > not understanding these as rupas, as elements. In the commentary we read > that earth (pathavii) is fourfold in meaning and that all the meanings are > relevant in this context. These four meanings are: > > 1. characteristic earth (lakkha.napathavii) as in "What, friends, is the > internal earth element? that which is internal, belonging to oneself, > hard, solid" (M28) > > 2. Composite earth (sasambhaarapathavi) as in "If he should dig the earth, > or cause the earth to be dug" (Viniv33). The 20 parts of the body > beginning with head-haris etc, and the external elements such as iron and > copper are also included in composite earth pathavii (earth-element) is predominant in the components> > > 3. Objectified earth (aaramma.napathavi) as in "Someone perceives the > earth-kasina" (D33), where the arammanapathavi is the earth-kasina or > earth sign (nimittapathavii) > > 4. Earth as conventional designation (sammutipathavii) as in when somebody > who obtains jhana with the earth-kasina as basis is reborn in a deva realm > and is called an "earth deity". > ..... > We also read a little later that the external earth element is "whatever > is external, and is hard, solid, hardness, the state of being hard, > exterior, not kammically acquired, such as : iron, copper, tin, led, > silver, pearl, gem........rock, mountain". > ... > [New S: Note the explicit references to "external earth element".] > ... > > This is the same for the other elements, regardless of whether they are > experienced or not. Of course it is the 'conceiving and delight' and the > wrong view on account of the various elements that is the root of all harm > and therefore the emphasis in the Teachings. We read further: "For what > reason does the worldling conceive earth? Why does he conceive and > delight in earth?" the answer is: "Because it has not been fully > understood by him."< > *** > > Pls ask if it's not clear and I'll add to my pile of messages waiting for replies:-) > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > #103042 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 7:28 am Subject: [dsg] brief summary of insight knowledges in Ptsm truth_aerator Dear Nina, Lukas, all, Thank you for your wonderful post. Few points to discuss: >Paññå should become keener so that the following stage of insight >can be reached. Exactly what should be done so that panna should become keener and the following stage of insight can be reached? >one should not try to do something else but continue to consider the >characteristics of nåma and rúpa, one should be Exactly how does one consider the characteristic of nama and rupa? Does citta labels whatever appears as "seeing, seeing... intending, intending... moving, moving... Feeling, feeling... Hardness, hardness"? Does citta simply is aware of the present movement without labelling? Or does on thinking "XYZ characteristic is nama, that characteristic XYZ is rupa." With metta, Alex >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >Dear Alex and Lukas, > > (6)Knowledge of rise and fall (udayabbaya~na.na). One contemplates > the arising and passing away of all phenomena, in particular the five > aggregates. > > N: quote from Kh Sujin: > < The fourth vipassanå ñåùa is knowledge of the arising and falling > away of nåma and rúpa, udayabbaya ~naa.na . > Vipassanå ~na.na of the third stage realizes the rapid succession of > nåmas and rúpas as they arise and fall. However, at this stage paññå > is not yet keen enough to see the danger and disdavantages of the > arising and falling away, so that there can be detachment from them. > The immediate arising of a new dhamma after the falling away of the > former dhamma covers up the danger of the arising and falling away. > Paññå should become keener so that the following stage of insight can > be reached. At the fourth stage paññå can penetrate more clearly the > arising and falling away of each kind of nåma and each kind of rúpa > separately. One should not try to do something else but continue to > consider the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, one should be > steadfast in the development of paññå. All kinds of nåma and rúpa can > be object of understanding, no matter whether they are kusala dhammas > or akusala dhammas, no matter of what degree of kusala or akusala > they are or through which doorway they appear. The fourth stage of > vipassanå ~naa.na, udayabbaya ~naa.na, knows more precisely the > arising and falling away of each kind of nåma and of rúpa as it > appears one at a time. This stage of insight can arise when "full > understanding of investigation", tírana pariññå, has become more > accomplished. Full understanding of investigation is the kind of > paññå which considers and clearly understands the characteristics of > all kinds of nåma and rúpa as they appear through the six doors. So > long as this is not the case, there are no conditions for the arising > of udayabbaya ~naa.na. > The person who develops the right Path knows that nibbåna, the > reality which eradicates defilements, cannot be realized if > understanding of conditioned realities has not been fully developed. > First the paññå should be developed which clearly understands the > characteristics of nåma and rúpa as they naturally appear in daily > life. It is impossible to realize nibbåna if paññå does not penetrate > thoroughly and precisely the characteristics of all kinds of nåma and > rúpa which appear through the six doors. > The characteristics of nåma and rúpa which appear through each of the > six doorways are different from each other. If paññå does not > precisely understand the difference between the characteristics of > nåma and rúpa as they appear through the six doorways, the arising > and falling away of nåma and rúpa cannot be realized. Then, > ignorance, doubt and wrong view about realities cannot be eradicated.> > (end quote) > > ******* > Nina. > #103043 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/3/2009 10:01:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > -------------------------------------------------------- > Still not so easy, Alex, it seems to me. Yes, there might be a > decision not to ride that day. But every aspect of the decision >was conditioned and not random. Lets say a citta has approximately the same of understanding and akusala tendency. That citta has all the conditions to produce an akusala volition or kusala volition. Can it decide to at least attempt to produce kusala volition? (Of course external factors may counter act it). Of course, examining POST Factum one can say exactly why this or that has happened. But at the moment just prior to the decision of the citta, the outcome could have went either way. ----------------------------------------------- If so, then it was random! Of course, that is not so. What IS true is that it was not then KNOWN which way it would go. ------------------------------------------------ How do you interpret this sutta: ""Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html ------------------------------------------------------ This says two things: 1) Things can and do change, and 2) One's own kamma does not constitute the entirety of conditioning. It does NOT assert randomness. ------------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex =================================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103044 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 8:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 10:01:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Hi Howard, all, > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Alex - > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Still not so easy, Alex, it seems to me. Yes, there might be a > > decision not to ride that day. But every aspect of the decision >was > conditioned and not random. > > Lets say a citta has approximately the same of understanding and >akusala > tendency. That citta has all the conditions to produce an akusala >volition > or kusala volition. Can it decide to at least attempt to produce >kusala > volition? (Of course external factors may counter act it). > > >Of course, examining POST Factum one can say exactly why this or >that has happened. But at the moment just prior to the decision of >the citta, the outcome could have went either way. > ----------------------------------------------- >If so, then it was random! It was conditioned, it was not random. There were conditions for possible kusala action and there were also conditions for possible akusala actions. The citta chose one, among the possible possibilities and willed in line of that. > Of course, that is not so. What IS true is > that it was not then KNOWN which way it would go. > ------------------------------------------------ So you say that everything is predetermined, only that we do not know right now which way it will go. But in theory, if supercomputer had all the facts and formulas, could it calculate exactly what would someone do tomorrow (such as which finger to move) at such and such a time? With metta, Alex #103045 From: "Lukas" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 8:49 am Subject: Re: Is everything predetermined? szmicio Dear Alex, > I fully agree in the above. By deeper analysis, there is just mental and material process happening. > > > The issue is: > Can citta (an impersonal process) choose to develop kusala, even though there are conditions for akusala *also*? > > > While it is possible, post factum, to say that "...such and such a result was due to this or that cause...", just prior to making a decision, can Citta will either way (assuming it has conditions to will either way)? L: for sure kusala development is possible. Each moment the kusala can be developed. Old habits can be changed, kusala can be cultivated more and more. But I think there is relief when we do not see Self or control involved in this kusala cultivation. This is somehow according to right understanding,right view. According to 4 Noble Truths. That are not only siila or metta, but there are the suprime kind of kusala, to see emptiness , anataness, dukkha and anicca of things. I think this is extremaly helpful to not try to put something somewhere first, but start to think in the right way. Or thinking just thinking. It thinks nothing more. Hard very hard. I also have problems with that ;> Best wishes Lukas #103046 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/3/2009 11:38:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 10:01:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Hi Howard, all, > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Alex - > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Still not so easy, Alex, it seems to me. Yes, there might be a > > decision not to ride that day. But every aspect of the decision >was > conditioned and not random. > > Lets say a citta has approximately the same of understanding and >akusala > tendency. That citta has all the conditions to produce an akusala >volition > or kusala volition. Can it decide to at least attempt to produce >kusala > volition? (Of course external factors may counter act it). > > >Of course, examining POST Factum one can say exactly why this or >that has happened. But at the moment just prior to the decision of >the citta, the outcome could have went either way. > ----------------------------------------------- >If so, then it was random! It was conditioned, it was not random. There were conditions for possible kusala action and there were also conditions for possible akusala actions. The citta chose one, among the possible possibilities and willed in line of that. ------------------------------------------------- I don't talk about cittas doing things, 'cause that makes them into entities that are "little agents/selves". But that aside, the making of a choice is conditioned. -------------------------------------------------- > Of course, that is not so. What IS true is > that it was not then KNOWN which way it would go. > ------------------------------------------------ So you say that everything is predetermined, only that we do not know right now which way it will go. But in theory, if supercomputer had all the facts and formulas, could it calculate exactly what would someone do tomorrow (such as which finger to move) at such and such a time? -------------------------------------------------- Well, it is an unpleasant thought, but somehow it seems to me that either events occur due to prior conditions or not. If not, if even a single exception, is that not random arising? ------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ============================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103047 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 12:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > ----------------------------------------------- > >If so, then it was random! > > It was conditioned, it was not random. There were conditions for possible > kusala action and there were also conditions for possible akusala actions. > The citta chose one, among the possible possibilities and willed in line of > that. > ------------------------------------------------- > I don't talk about cittas doing things, 'cause that makes them >into > entities that are "little agents/selves". Ok. Lets use the language that you are comfortable with, I don't mind. >But that aside, the making of a choice is conditioned. Yes, conditions are necessery for a certain result. But can there be multiple choice possible? > > ------------------------------------------------ > > So you say that everything is predetermined, only that we do not know > right now which way it will go. But in theory, if supercomputer had all the > facts and formulas, could it calculate exactly what would someone do tomorrow > (such as which finger to move) at such and such a time? > -------------------------------------------------- > Well, it is an unpleasant thought, but somehow it seems to me that > either events occur due to prior conditions or not. If not, if even a single > exception, is that not random arising? > ------------------------------------------------- Maybe not 'random' but unpredictable (from the perspective of past moment) arising when certain conditions are met. It is true that one cannot grab with arms an object if one doesn't have any arms. But when one has arms (a necessary condition), that itself isn't sufficient to make one grab the object. With metta, Alex #103048 From: "Mike" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 12:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? mikenz66 Hi Howard, Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > In a message dated 12/3/2009 11:38:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > A: So you say that everything is predetermined, only that we do not know > right now which way it will go. But in theory, if supercomputer had all the > facts and formulas, could it calculate exactly what would someone do tomorrow > (such as which finger to move) at such and such a time? > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: Well, it is an unpleasant thought, but somehow it seems to me that > either events occur due to prior conditions or not. If not, if even a single > exception, is that not random arising? Surely this jumping to extremes ("It is either conditioned or random...") is completely contrary to what the Buddha was warning about in the Sutta quoted earlier in this thread, the view that everything is pre-determined. It's clear that there are MANY (perhaps MOST) things that are beyond control because of previous conditions. That's a central theme of all Buddhist teachings and teachers. It's another thing entirely to assert that "it's ALL out of control". The message I see in the Buddha's teachings is that development of the Eight-Fold Path will eventually make these apparent contradictions go away. I see no evidence in the teachings that such development will occur by jumping to simplistic conclusions based on the apparent contradictions. Metta Mike #103050 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 12:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > Hi Howard, Alex, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > In a message dated 12/3/2009 11:38:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > > truth_aerator@ writes: > > > > > A: So you say that everything is predetermined, only that we do not know > > right now which way it will go. But in theory, if supercomputer had all the > > facts and formulas, could it calculate exactly what would someone do tomorrow > > (such as which finger to move) at such and such a time? > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: Well, it is an unpleasant thought, but somehow it seems to me that > > either events occur due to prior conditions or not. If not, if even a single > > exception, is that not random arising? > > Surely this jumping to extremes ("It is either conditioned or random...") is completely contrary to what the Buddha was warning about in the Sutta quoted earlier in this thread, the view that everything is pre-determined. > > It's clear that there are MANY (perhaps MOST) things that are beyond control because of previous conditions. That's a central theme of all Buddhist teachings and teachers. It's another thing entirely to assert that "it's ALL out of control". > > The message I see in the Buddha's teachings is that development of the Eight-Fold Path will eventually make these apparent contradictions go away. I see no evidence in the teachings that such development will occur by jumping to simplistic conclusions based on the apparent contradictions. > > Metta > Mike > Hello Mike, all, I think you are right. As I've stated before. Conditionality does not have to always imply pre-determinism and fatalism. Conditionality can set necessary, but not always sufficient conditions for a/kusala. There is a key difference between necessary causes and sufficient causes. ======= "When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html With metta, Alex #103051 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/3/2009 3:03:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > ----------------------------------------------- > >If so, then it was random! > > It was conditioned, it was not random. There were conditions for possible > kusala action and there were also conditions for possible akusala actions. > The citta chose one, among the possible possibilities and willed in line of > that. > ------------------------------------------------- > I don't talk about cittas doing things, 'cause that makes them >into > entities that are "little agents/selves". Ok. Lets use the language that you are comfortable with, I don't mind. >But that aside, the making of a choice is conditioned. Yes, conditions are necessery for a certain result. But can there be multiple choice possible? ------------------------------------------------------------ There can be a whole bunch of alternatives decided among. The deciding is done on the basis of reasoning and/or on emotion, but every element of the decision process is conditioned by prior events including, of course, mental make-up, desires, preferences, and all the things you would expect, many of which we *think* of as personal. So, sure, "we" do make choices, but it is, always, carried out on the basis of past conditions or conditions in effect, without an iota of unconditioned occurrence. -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------ > > So you say that everything is predetermined, only that we do not know > right now which way it will go. But in theory, if supercomputer had all the > facts and formulas, could it calculate exactly what would someone do tomorrow > (such as which finger to move) at such and such a time? > -------------------------------------------------- > Well, it is an unpleasant thought, but somehow it seems to me that > either events occur due to prior conditions or not. If not, if even a single > exception, is that not random arising? > ------------------------------------------------- Maybe not 'random' but unpredictable (from the perspective of past moment) arising when certain conditions are met. ------------------------------------------------ No, I think more than unpredictable. I think that an unconditioned event would be a random event. ----------------------------------------------- It is true that one cannot grab with arms an object if one doesn't have any arms. But when one has arms (a necessary condition), that itself isn't sufficient to make one grab the object. ----------------------------------------------- True. The conditions needed must be sufficient. But that is actually off the point as far as I can see. Believe, me, Alex, when I tell you that I would dearly love for there to be true "free will," and there is certainly the *sense* that there is such a thing, but, the same as regards an alleged self, it just can't be found when looked for. ------------------------------------------------ With metta, Alex ================================ With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103052 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 8:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? upasaka_howard Hi, Mike - In a message dated 12/3/2009 3:13:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mikenz66@... writes: Hi Howard, Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > In a message dated 12/3/2009 11:38:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > A: So you say that everything is predetermined, only that we do not know > right now which way it will go. But in theory, if supercomputer had all the > facts and formulas, could it calculate exactly what would someone do tomorrow > (such as which finger to move) at such and such a time? > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: Well, it is an unpleasant thought, but somehow it seems to me that > either events occur due to prior conditions or not. If not, if even a single > exception, is that not random arising? Surely this jumping to extremes ("It is either conditioned or random...") is completely contrary to what the Buddha was warning about in the Sutta quoted earlier in this thread, the view that everything is pre-determined. It's clear that there are MANY (perhaps MOST) things that are beyond control because of previous conditions. That's a central theme of all Buddhist teachings and teachers. It's another thing entirely to assert that "it's ALL out of control". The message I see in the Buddha's teachings is that development of the Eight-Fold Path will eventually make these apparent contradictions go away. I see no evidence in the teachings that such development will occur by jumping to simplistic conclusions based on the apparent contradictions. Metta Mike ================================== I'm not saying that our actions, including our decisions, don't effect events. They certainly and obviously do. What I'm saying, however, is that these actions of ours don't arise randomly, but according to conditions. There is will, but there is not FREE will, if 'free' means "unconditioned". With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103053 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator Hello Howard, Nina, Mike and all, In CMA the citta can be either prompted sasankharikam or unprompted (asankharikam). "Prompted citta Sa-sankharika (lit., with effort) is that which is prompted, instigated, or induced by oneself or by another. `Asankharika' (lit., without effort) is that which is thus unaffected, but done spontaneously. If, for instance, one does an act, induced by another, or after much deliberation or premeditation on one's part, then it is sa-sankharika. If, on the contrary, one does it instantly without any external or internal inducement, or any premeditation, then it is asankharika." - CMA (Abhidhammattha sangaha by Ven. Narada Mahathera pg 34 or pg 36 in Bhikkhu Bodhi's CMA So some cittas that arise can be unprompted (internally or externally). So CMA denies totally predictable, deterministic conditionality. Maybe an aspect of free will is found in sasankharika (unprompted) cittas? With metta, Alex #103054 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 9:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Nina & Mike) - In a message dated 12/3/2009 5:29:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, Nina, Mike and all, In CMA the citta can be either prompted sasankharikam or unprompted (asankharikam). "Prompted citta Sa-sankharika (lit., with effort) is that which is prompted, instigated, or induced by oneself or by another. `Asankharika' (lit., without effort) is that which is thus unaffected, but done spontaneously. If, for instance, one does an act, induced by another, or after much deliberation or premeditation on one's part, then it is sa-sankharika. If, on the contrary, one does it instantly without any external or internal inducement, or any premeditation, then it is asankharika." - CMA (Abhidhammattha sangaha by Ven. Narada Mahathera pg 34 or pg 36 in Bhikkhu Bodhi's CMA So some cittas that arise can be unprompted (internally or externally). So CMA denies totally predictable, deterministic conditionality. Maybe an aspect of free will is found in sasankharika (unprompted) cittas? ------------------------------------------------------ A mind state that is prompted is one which arises due to an act of will of one's own or an another being. Not all mind states are prompted, but all are conditioned. In this regard, I'd like to go back to the matter of the material found at the web address _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html) . Part of the point of that, I think, is that an action we may take now does matter - that the present counts as well as the past. That is true. But an action we may take now is taken only if all the requisite conditions for it have occurred. Among the requisite conditions for taking an action is the knowledge (or the belief) that the action does matter! And it is for that reason that the Buddha tells us so. This in no way denies that current actions are conditioned. It simply points out that it matters whether an action is taken or not, and this is pointed out by the Buddha, because the belief that it matters is one of the very conditions requisite for the action occurring. -------------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ================================= With metta, Howard P. S. I've written an enormous amount on this topic, and I think I've pretty much exhausted what I have to say. So, I'm going to bow out at this point. Let me add, though, that I've enjoyed the discussion, and I think this has been very interesting and worthwhile even though probably no perspectives have been radically altered. Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103055 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 3:47 pm Subject: Without the Walls nichiconn Sorry about the misunderstanding, Herman. I don't remember now what I wrote when I was thinking about ghosts eating, so I'll just start over from there. If there is a being, it must have some kind of chow. In this D&D mini-series, while our foodstuffs as such might not serve the ghosts' physical needs: . I missed seeing where you got the idea that ghosts don't talk when we'd already seen where they peace, connie #103056 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:26 pm Subject: The Outcaste... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Behaviour and not birth defines the Outcaste! Once a brahmin asked the Blessed Buddha: What makes an Outcaste? The Blessed One then explained: Not birth or family, but evil bad behaviour defines an outcaste: Whoever is angry, irritable, cruel, hypocritical, has wrong views and who is false, pretending and deceitful, such one should be known as an outcaste. Whoever in this world harms living beings, who has no pity, who terrorizes, destroys or besieges villages & towns as a notorious dictatorial oppressor, such one should be known as an outcaste. Whoever in a village or a forest takes by theft, what was not given to him, who having lend money, when requested denies to repay, who due to desire for some trifle commits violence, such one should be known as an outcaste! Sn 116-121 <...> Have a nice well behaved day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #103057 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 6:00 pm Subject: The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 6. nichiconn dear Herman and All, c:> Isn't pride of birth one of the first things to go? H:> Go and ask someone who thinks they were born. c: Sorry again! - just reference hunting & hadn't realized the room was full of folk who don't get caught up in that. Gimme a break. I stopped at Sn 911: "Let others take them up". I considered that if most of life's moments tend towards akusala, it's like we're [pardon me, but "ferally"] fetched up by wolves (lobha, dosa & moha) and the importance of hearing The Voice from Another. When that tangent wound down, i thought about Nina and Han with respect and appreciation because i enjoy Rupas, too. But I forget: That one would safeguard truth alone, methinks. peace, connie re: If kamma is the cause of birth, what is then the role of the parents? #103058 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 10:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Planet Earth a result of Kamma (kammavipaka)? sarahprocter... Dear Alex (& Herman), --- On Thu, 3/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >So as I understand it, there is according to your understanding external, mind independent rupa, .... S: Of course! .... >mind independent soil, oceans, fire, wind, that can blow away villages, etc etc such as described in MN28. .... S: Yes.....vohaara (correct conventional designations as used by the Buddha here) to describe rupas outside sentient beings... In one of the quotes I gave you yesterday, the text referred to "sasambhaarapathavi (composite earth)". The twenty parts of the body, external elements such as iron and copper are included in this. Composite earth consists of earth (pathavii) together with other rupas, such as colour. In other words, as you know, each kalapa has a minimum of earth rupas, earth, water, fire, air, colour, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. When earth-element is predominant, it is referred to as 'composite earth'. Soil would be a good example of this and the others, examples of 'composite water', 'composite fire' and 'composite air'. Metta Sarah p.s thx again to Herman for the good quote from Kvu in #102922 ======== #103059 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 10:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, --- On Fri, 4/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >In CMA the citta can be either prompted sasankharikam or unprompted (asankharikam) . "Prompted citta Sa-sankharika (lit., with effort) is that which is prompted, instigated, or induced by oneself or by another. `Asankharika' (lit., without effort) is that which is thus unaffected, but done spontaneously. If, for instance, one does an act, induced by another, or after much deliberation or premeditation on one's part, then it is sa-sankharika. If, on the contrary, one does it instantly without any external or internal inducement, or any premeditation, then it is asankharika. " - CMA (Abhidhammattha sangaha by Ven. Narada Mahathera pg 34 or pg 36 in Bhikkhu Bodhi's CMA So some cittas that arise can be unprompted (internally or externally). So CMA denies totally predictable, deterministic conditionality. Maybe an aspect of free will is found in sasankharika (unprompted) cittas? ... S: Let's be very clear that all cittas are conditioned and unpredictable. Determinism suggests (to me) that a God or someone or something determines them. This is not correct. There is no 'free-will', because this again suggests a Self that can select or choose. Whatever people read, they will try to find some self-wiggle room as Rob K's little story about the monks he met indicated. This is why very few people appreciate what K.Sujin and some of us are trying to say here:-) Sasankharika and asankharika just refer to the strength of the citta and its effort. For example, sometimes you may go to the kitchen to make yourself a drink without hesitation. Another time, you may just have a drink if someone prepares it and offers it to you, without any strong desire on your part. In either case, all and any of the cittas arising are conditioned and without any free-will involved. Just like now....can you choose not to read what you see? Can you choose to think in a different way at this moment? Can you choose whether to hear some sound from another room? No, just conditioned dhammas arising and falling away. Metta Sarah ========== #103060 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 11:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: present moment diary. gazita2002 Hallo All This I sent to friend Jill jst yesterday: "If one finds no equal or superior for company, a solitary career is commendable. If a wayfarer fails to find one better or equal, steadfast, he should fare alone for with a fool is no fellowship" patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Azita, Nina, Han & all, > > --- On Sat, 21/11/09, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >Azita, please tell us more, so that we can appreciate and learn, > ... > S: perhaps when she has time, Azita will collect and send us the various short dhamma quotes and comments she's been forwarding to Jill. #103061 From: "connie" Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 11:19 pm Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 18-20) nichiconn dear pt and all, The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning on: [Stanza 2] 18. Herein, rich (pahute) [means] not little, plentiful (bahumhi); as much as is needed, is what is meant. It is allowed to substitute the syllable pa for the syllable ba [thus transforming bahu into pahu] as in such passages as 'Pahu santo na bharati' ('Who, having plenty (being able), does not support [a mother] ... ': Sn 98). Some read pahuute ('abundant': loc.) and also pahuta"m ('richly': neut. nom. as adv.); but those are careless readings. With food and drink: annapaanamhi = anne ca paanamhi (resolution of compound). Feast: khajjabhojje (lit. 'chewables and comestibles') = khajje ca bhojje ca (resolution of compound); by that, [namely anna and paana and khajja and bhojja (= khaadaniiya and bhojaniiya),] he showed the four kinds of nutriment consisting in what is fed on (asita), drunk (piita), chewed (khaayita), and supped (saayita). Set out (upati.t.thite): stands, having approached (upagamma .thite); what is meant is: made ready, prepared, combined. 19. The fact that no man does recall these creatures (na tesa"m sarati sattaana"m): when these creatures have appeared in the ghost realm, no mother or father or child remembers them. For what reason? It stems from their past acts (kammapaccayaa): it has for its [necessary] condition the miserly acts classed as non-giving, prevention of giving, and so on; [208] for that action of theirs does not permit their relatives to remember them. 20. So the Blessed One said Pahute annapaanamhi khajjabhojje upa.t.thite Na tesa"m koci sarati sattaana"m kammapaccayaa. 'But when a rich feast is set out 'With food and drink of every kind, 'The fact that no man does recall 'Those creatures stems from their past acts.' And when he had said this, showing that although no little food, drink, etc., has been set out and ghosts are wandering round hoping 'Perhaps something will be given dedicated to us', the fact that no one of their relatives remembers them is due to action [formerly] done by those [ghosts] which has this extremely disagreeable ripening, then he uttered the third stanza, namely, 'So they who are compassionate At heart do give for relatives', again commending to the king the giving of gifts dedicated to relatives who have appeared in the Ghost Realm. to be continued, connie #103062 From: Herman Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Planet Earth a result of Kamma (kammavipaka)? egberdina Hi Sarah and Alex, 2009/12/3 sarah abbott > Hi Alex (& Herman), > ... > >H: From the Kathavatthu (which means no discussion will be entered into. > > Because it is definitely right :-)) > .... > [S: I have to say I never thought I'd see the day that I'd read you and > Alex quoting and discussing not only the Kathavatthu, but also its > commentary notes:-)) Next we'll have you guys, Howard and others saying you > trust it's Buddha-vacana (word of the Buddha) - well, maybe a little later > for that....:-))] > I am indebted to Alex for being able to reference the Kathavatthu, and I thank him for it, I think it is very useful to have it. It (KV) refers us to a fact of history, that people, and groups of people, will disagree over time. And it refers us to how the Theravadin line evolves. Many things that are being squabbled about here at dsg from time to time are discussed in KV, and I think it is great to have a Theravadin touchstone that may date to some 200 years after the parinibbana of the Buddha. Another fantastic work that I would heartily recommend is the milinda panha. It is a Theravadin touchstone dated some 500 years after the Buddha. It is nothing like the KV. What is made evident is that topics of contention change over time, and that the logic in the refutations change accordingly. As to KV being Buddhavacana, Buddhagosa always overplays his hand in making any case. He seems to appeal mainly to the Dungeons&Dragons enthusiasts. Gotta love that "jewelled stairway that was in the midst of the gold and silver stairways from the deva world to the city of Sankassa," :-) Now when he had wrought the Twin-Miracle, the Exalted One repaired for the rains to the City of the Thrice Ten Devas. And there beneath the Coral Tree, seated on the Pandukambala Rock, making his mother chief witness, he discoursed to the assembly of Devas on matters philo- sophical [Abhidhamma-katha]. After he had taught them the Dhamma-Sangani, the Yibhanga, the Dhatu-Katha, and the Puggala-Pannatti, he thought:—< "When in the future the turn for setting forth the Kathavatthu shall have arrived, my disciple, the greatly wise Elder, Tissa son of Moggall, will purge the blemishes that have arisen in the religion,1 and calling a Third Council, will, seated in the midst of the Order, divide this compilation into a thousand sections,2 five hundred being assigned to our views, five hundred to views of others/ For this occasion, beginning with an eight-sectioned inquiry into the theory of person or soul, in four questions each of two fivefold divisions, he drew up, with respect to the course to be adopted in all the discourses, a list of heads in a text uncompleted by just one section for recitation. Then delivering in detail the remainder of the Abhidhamma discourse,3 his rains-season sojourn being over, he descended by the jewelled stairway that was in the midst of the gold and silver stairways from the deva world to the city of Sankassa,4 and so accomplishing the welfare of all beings and establishing it as long as he lived, he completed existence, leaving no remaining basis of future life. Cheers Herman #103063 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: katthavathu book 2 links sarahprocter... Hi pt, (Connie or Alex), We'd be grateful if one of you would add these links, plus the Visuddhi one Alex gave into the 'bookmarks' as you did before. What was it you said, Alex, about the Visuddhimagga being based on the Vimuttimagga? Whatever it was, it was very controversial round here:-)) Metta Sarah --- On Mon, 30/11/09, connie wrote: Thanks, Alex! Another good one there you might be interested in: http://lirs. ru/lib/The_ Guide,Nettippaka rana,Nanamoli, 1977.pdf peace, connie > > http://lirs. ru/do/The_ Debates_Commenta ry,Bimala, 1940.pdf > > > http://lirs. ru/do/Points_ of_Controversy_ Kathavatthu),Aung,Davids, 1915.pdf #103064 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conditions through temporal abyss sarahprocter... Hi Alex, You've been asking good questions and persisting until satisfied, which I appreciate. --- On Mon, 30/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >But how can proximity condition function over time gap? When the citta ceases and there is no more citta for 7 days, what causes the emergence of the 1st citta after nirodha samapatti? ... S: You've heard/read a lot about anantara paccaya in this connection, how the citta after emergence from nirodha samapatti (the phala citta) is connected to the one prior to nirodha samapatti (the jhana citta) by anantara, the succession of cittas. The other factor is the determination with regard to the 'time-set' prior to the nirodha samapatti. It is determined whether it will be one hour, one day or seven days, for example, unless one of the over-riding conditions which someone enumerated intervenes, such as a danger to life. Lots, lots more in U.P. under 'niroda samapatti'. Metta Sarah ======== #103065 From: Herman Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/12/4 truth_aerator > Hello Howard, all, > > It was conditioned, it was not random. There were conditions for possible > kusala action and there were also conditions for possible akusala actions. > The citta chose one, among the possible possibilities and willed in line of > that. > > > > Of course, that is not so. What IS true is > > that it was not then KNOWN which way it would go. > > ------------------------------------------------ > > So you say that everything is predetermined, only that we do not know right > now which way it will go. But in theory, if supercomputer had all the facts > and formulas, could it calculate exactly what would someone do tomorrow > (such as which finger to move) at such and such a time? > The future is not pre-determined, it is determined by what we do next. And we don't know what that is, until it has happened. I think it is more factual to say that everything is un-determined. The theoretical supercomputer is nothing more than our twin, that finds itself in the precarious situation of having to choose in order to achieve an unachievable goal. Cheers Herman #103066 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Planet Earth a result of Kamma (kammavipaka)? sarahprocter... Hi Herman (& Alex), --- On Fri, 4/12/09, Herman wrote: > I am indebted to Alex for being able to reference the > Kathavatthu, and I > thank him for it, I think it is very useful to have it. It > (KV) refers us to > a fact of history, that people, and groups of people, will > disagree over > time. ... S: And this is exactly what the Buddha foresaw....this is why he laid out the table of contents, the Mattika in preparation. .... >And it refers us to how the Theravadin line evolves. > Many things that > are being squabbled about here at dsg from time to time are > discussed in KV, ... S: Just as I've been saying over the years....:-) .... > and I think it is great to have a Theravadin touchstone > that may date to > some 200 years after the parinibbana of the Buddha. Another > fantastic work > that I would heartily recommend is the milinda panha. It is > a Theravadin > touchstone dated some 500 years after the Buddha. It is > nothing like the KV. > What is made evident is that topics of contention change > over time, and that > the logic in the refutations change accordingly. ... S: Yes, both are very useful - as you say, changes in the topics of contention, BUT the Dhamma remains intact... .... > > As to KV being Buddhavacana, Buddhagosa always overplays > his hand in making > any case. He seems to appeal mainly to the > Dungeons&Dragons enthusiasts. ... S: As I said, it may take a little longer, another decade perhaps, before you accept it as Buddhavacana:-)) ... > Gotta love that "jewelled stairway that was in the midst of > the gold and > silver stairways from the deva world to the city of > Sankassa," :-) ... S: Well, an acquired taste which you seem to be slowly acquiring in spite of best intentions to not acquire it:-) and as your quote below indicates, it was all foretold exactly by the Buddha.....!! Metta Sarah > > Now when he had wrought the Twin-Miracle, the Exalted > One repaired for the rains to the City of the Thrice Ten > Devas. And there beneath the Coral Tree, seated on the > Pandukambala Rock, making his mother chief witness, > he discoursed to the assembly of Devas on matters philo- > sophical [Abhidhamma-katha]. After he had taught > them the Dhamma-Sangani, the Yibhanga, the > Dhatu-Katha, and the Puggala-Pannatti, he > thought:—< "When in the future the turn for setting > forth > the Kathavatthu shall have arrived, my disciple, the > greatly wise Elder, Tissa son of Moggall, will purge the > blemishes that have arisen in the religion,1 and calling a > Third Council, will, seated in the midst of the Order, > divide > this compilation into a thousand sections,2 five hundred > being assigned to our views, five hundred to views of > others/ > For this occasion, beginning with an eight-sectioned > inquiry > into the theory of person or soul, in four questions each > of > two fivefold divisions, he drew up, with respect to the > course to be adopted in all the discourses, a list of > heads > in a text uncompleted by just one section for recitation. > Then delivering in detail the remainder of the Abhidhamma > discourse,3 his rains-season sojourn being over, he > descended by the jewelled stairway that was in the midst > of the gold and silver stairways from the deva world to > the > city of Sankassa,4 and so accomplishing the welfare of all > beings and establishing it as long as he lived, he > completed > existence, leaving no remaining basis of future life. > #103067 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 2:08 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha’s teaching on past lives, the present life and future lives, on the cycle of birth and death, is difficult to grasp. We can have more understanding of this teaching if we can see that, in the ultimate sense, life lasts merely as long as one moment of citta which arises and falls away. We are used to thinking in conventional terms of person, situation, life and death. In the conventional sense life starts at the moment of conception and it ends at the moment of death. In the ultimate sense there is birth and death at each moment a citta arises and falls away. The citta which has fallen away conditions the arising of the next citta. There has to be a citta arising at each moment, there is no moment without citta. Cittas arise in succession in the current of life. When the end of a lifespan approaches, the last citta, the dying-consciousness, falls away, but it is succeeded by the next citta. That citta is the first citta of a new life, namely the rebirth-consciousness. There can be theoretical understanding of death and rebirth, but all doubts can only be eliminated by the development of direct understanding of the mental phenomena and physical phenomena which arise and fall away. If there is direct understanding of the conditions for the citta which arises at this moment, doubt about rebirth can be eliminated. Just as the citta of this moment is succeeded by the next citta, evenso the last citta of this life will be succeeded by a following citta, the rebirth-consciousness. It is dukkha to be in the cycle of birth and death. Why do we have to receive an unpleasant result of a deed committed in a past life? In a past life one was another being, different from what one is now. But why should we receive the result of a deed committed in the past by another being? A deed in the past which produces result now was committed by a being from which we have originated. It is indeed sorrowful that unpleasant results have to be received for evil deeds which may have been committed many lives ago. This is the law of kamma and its result, and it operates, whether we like it or not. A person in this life is different from what he was in a past life, but all that was accumulated in the past, kusala kamma and akusala kamma, defilements and good qualities, all accumulations have been carried on from moment to moment and they condition what is called the present personality. The Path of Purification (XVII, 167) explains: And with the stream of continuity there is neither identity nor otherness. For if there were absolute identity in a stream of continuity, there would be no forming of curd from milk. And yet if there were absolute otherness, the curd would not be derived from the milk… So neither absolute identity nor absolute otherness should be assumed here. ******* Nina #103068 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inducing samatha sarahprocter... Hi Herman, Jon, Alex and all, --- On Sun, 29/11/09, jonoabb wrote: > ============ === > "But then there is the case where I see a monk sitting, nodding, in the > wilderness. The thought occurs to me, 'Soon this venerable one will dispel > his drowsiness & fatigue and attend to the wilderness-percepti on, > [his > mind] unified.' And so I am pleased with that monk's wilderness-dwelling . > ============ === J:> In the situation being described here, the wilderness-dwelling monk is one who has the ability to "dispel his drowsiness & fatigue and attend to the wilderness-percepti on". Not every person would have this capability. It shows highly developed aptitude for wilderness dwelling, an aptitude that must be developed first over time. Nor do I read this as saying that going to the wilderness gives a person the ability to dispel drowsiness and fatigue etc. ... S: As Maha Kaccana told Sona the first two times when he asked to ordain: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.06.than.html#why "It's hard, Sona, the life-long, one-meal-a-day, sleeping-alone celibate life. Please, right there as you are a householder, devote yourself to the message of the Awakened Ones and to the proper-time [i.e., uposatha day] one-meal-a-day, sleeping-alone celibate life." Metta Sarah ======= #103069 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling sarahprocter... Hi Alex, (Herman & all), #102671 --- On Wed, 25/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Seeing, etc, is always intentional (for non-Arahants) or result of past intentions. >Phasso plays a role in any cognitive events of non-Arahant. .... S: Can you elaborate on what you mean by these two comments? Metta Sarah ======== #103070 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 2:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments on Angulimala Sutta sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, #102678 --- On Wed, 25/11/09, Lukas wrote: >Let'me give my comments on what I considered very important reminder. I read in Angulimala Sutta: ... Apprciated! I like the way you read and comment on different texts, always within the context of anatta, conditionality and Buddhavacana as a whole.... Metta Sarah ======= #103071 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments on Angulimala Sutta szmicio Dear Sarah, I am happy you appreciated this. > >Let'me give my comments on what I considered very important reminder. > I read in Angulimala Sutta: > ... > Apprciated! I like the way you read and comment on different texts, always within the context of anatta, conditionality and Buddhavacana as a whole.... L: Wise consideration arises due to conditions. No one can reflect in a wise way. What we call reflection, is just conditioned moment. No need to call it dhamma, or ponder over it. Just forget everything that you know or learned. When we have an opportunity to hear Dhamma, this is nice. Best wishes Lukas #103072 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: On Faculties compilation sarahprocter... Dear Alex, Thank you for sharing. Like others, short extracts work well for me to consider, such as the 'top' and 'tail' from #102700: --- On Thu, 26/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >"There are these five faculties. What five? The faith faculty, the energy faculty, the mindfulness faculty, the concentration faculty, the wisdom faculty.' (S v 193) ====== >What makes these five faculties stable? "Just as, in a house with a ridged roof, the rafters are not stable or firm as long as the ridge beam is not in place, but are stable and firm when it is; in the same way, four spiritual faculties are not stable or firm as long as noble knowledge has not arisen in a noble disciple, but are stable and firm when it has. Which four? The faculty of faith, the faculty of effort, the faculty of mindfulness, and the faculty of concentration" . "When a noble disciple is wisely discerning, the faith that follows from that stands solid. The effort that follows from that stands solid. The mindfulness that follows from that stands solid and stable. The concentration that follows from that stands solid and stable."- SN 48.52 ... Many thanks Metta Sarah p.s I also appreciate your quotes, such as in #102698 with the Pali terms inserted. Very helpful. ====== #103073 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 5:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Satipatthana - while watching TV & cooking? sarahprocter... Dear Connie, A belated thanks for the balm for my challenged eyes: --- On Thu, 26/11/09, connie wrote: >;) no more worries about going blind just yet - http://www.accessto insight.org/ lib/authors/ thanissaro/ atthakavagga. html... S: That was the one... Metta Sarah ======== #103074 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 5:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) sarahprocter... Dear Alex, (Phil & all), --- On Thu, 26/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >Some cut outs of Patisambhidamagga: >What is virtue? There is virtue as volition, virtue as consciousness concomitant, virtue as restraint, virtue as non-transgression. There are three kinds of virtue (habit); profitable virtue(habit) , unprofitable virtue(habit) , indeterminate virtue(habit) . >From what does virtue originate? Profitable virtue(habit) originates from profitable cognizance, unprofitable virtue(habit) originates from unprofitable cognizance, indeterminate virtue(habit) originates from indeterminate cognizance. .... S: And so, without understanding more and more clearly what profitable consciousness is, what unprofitable consciousness, how will profitable (rather than unprofitable) virtue originate? Again, back to the understanding of the benefit of one and the harm of the other, I think... Metta Sarah ======== #103075 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 5:15 am Subject: brief summary of insight knowledges nilovg Dear Alex, Quote: >Paññå should become keener so that the following stage of insight >can be reached. -------- A: Exactly what should be done so that panna should become keener and the following stage of insight can be reached? -------- N: Continue the development of sati and understanding of all dhammas that appear at the present moment. --------- quote: >one should not try to do something else but continue to consider the >characteristics of nåma and rúpa, one should be A: Exactly how does one consider the characteristic of nama and rupa? Does citta labels whatever appears as "seeing, seeing... intending, intending... moving, moving... Feeling, feeling... Hardness, hardness"? --------- N: No, at the moment one labels there is thinking, no awareness of the present reality. But also thinking can be object of awareness. It is conditioned, non-self. --------- A: Does citta simply is aware of the present moment without labelling? Or does on thinking "XYZ characteristic is nama, that characteristic XYZ is rupa." ------- N: For example at this moment there is seeing. Do you have to label it seeing? it is not necessary. It has a characteristic different from hearing or from aversion. First the specific characteristics of realities are known and later on the three general characteristics will be understood more clearly. But there can be more and more understanding that we do not cause the arising of seeing, or of any other reality. It has its own conditions. We are inclined by habit to first name realities and then we think that we can be aware. Kh Sujin says: do not name it. Just attend to the characteristic that appears. Nina. #103076 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 6:09 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Dear Herman, Op 3-dec-2009, om 13:04 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven: > your answer is a > kind of view, an attitude. It is a retrospective view of things, > looking > back a deed is just something that happened, like a tree falling over. ------- N: I see it this way: there is a threefold cycle. At this moment there is vipaaka in the form of pleasant or unpleasant sense- cognitions. On account of such experiences defilements are bound to arise. Defilements condition action, kamma, that produces again result. We are going around and around, but through right understanding of realities this cycle can eventually be broken. By listening to the Dhamma a beginning can be made. Nina. #103077 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sasa"nkhaarika or asa"nkhaarika, was: everything predetermined? nilovg Dear Alex, --------- > A: Prompted citta Sa-sankharika (lit., with effort) is that which is > prompted, instigated, or induced by oneself or by another. -------- N: This is avery general example, but in VIs. XIV I learnt more details. Sasa"nkhaarika: the citta is weaker, 'with some hesitation'. It is not as strong as when it is asa"nkhaarika, spontaneous. Also such examples are a bit general. The main thing: it tells us something about the strength of the lobha that is sasa"nkhaarika or asa"nkhaarika. Or the strength of kusala, like generosity. Nina. #103078 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] brief summary of insight knowledges in Patis nilovg Dear Alex and Lukas, Op 26-nov-2009, om 21:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > (7)Knowledge of insight (vipassana~na.na). After contemplating > phenomena as impermanent, etc., one now contemplates, in > particular, the dissolution of the insight consciousness itself > that has them as object. Consequently one feels revulsion for them. ------- Kh Sujin: < The fifth stage of vipassanå ñaa.na is knowledge of dissolution, bhanga ñaa.na. Even though the fourth stage of vipassanå ñaa.na clearly realizes the arising and falling away of one characteristic of nåma and of rúpa at a time, clinging to them is still very persistent. Clinging to all realities has been accumulated for an endlessly long time in the cycle of birth and death. Ignorance and clinging to the concept of self are like firmly implanted roots which are hard to pull up. Paññå has to be developed more thoroughly through satiptthåna. There must be awareness and investigation again and again of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa which was already realized at the fourth stage of insight. Paññå should investigate more thoroughly the falling away of the nåmas and rúpas which appear. Then it can be seen that dhammas which fall away cannot be any refuge. Through the development of satipatthåna paññå becomes keener and more accomplished so that there are the right conditions for the fifth stage of vipassanå ñaa.na, knowledge of dissolution, bhanga ñaa.na. This stage of vipassanå clearly realizes that nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away cannot be any refuge, that they cannot give any security. Then there is the beginning of the third pariññå, “full understanding of abandoning”, pahåna pariññå. This pariññå can lead to higher stages of paññå, to paññå which begins to detach from clinging to the idea of self, being or person.> (end quote) ****** Nina. #103079 From: Ken O Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 7:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? ashkenn2k Dear Suan If you felt it is wrong, then it is good we discuss it. It is through sharing and learning that the dhamma growth. Lets start with pre-determine since you mention it. As I am not good in Pali, I am grateful if you do not give long quotes of pali without translation. I am perfectly alright with you giving your own translation of the Pali. If possible give me a source where I look out also. Would that be perfectly alright with you? I look foward to our discussion Cheers Ken O #103080 From: Ken O Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 8:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] brief summary of insight knowledges in Ptsm ashkenn2k Dear Alex >Exactly what should be done so that panna should become keener and the following stage of insight can be reached? KO: continue to see each nama and rupa as anicca, dukkha and anatta. >Exactly how does one consider the characteristic of nama and rupa? > >Does citta labels whatever appears as "seeing, seeing... intending, intending... moving, moving... Feeling, feeling... Hardness, hardness"? > >Does citta simply is aware of the present movement without labelling? > >Or does on thinking "XYZ characteristic is nama, that characteristic XYZ is rupa." KO: Citta cognise an object, it is panna that understand the characteristics of nama and rupa. One consider the characterisic of nama and rupa by pg 349, Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary <> Cheers Ken O #103081 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 10:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: conditions through temporal abyss truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > You've been asking good questions and persisting until satisfied, which I appreciate. > > --- On Mon, 30/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >But how can proximity condition function over time gap? When the citta ceases and there is no more citta for 7 days, what causes the emergence of the 1st citta after nirodha samapatti? > > ... > S: You've heard/read a lot about anantara paccaya in this connection, how the citta after emergence from nirodha samapatti (the phala citta) is connected to the one prior to nirodha samapatti (the jhana citta) by anantara, the succession of cittas. The other factor is the determination with regard to the 'time-set' prior to the nirodha samapatti. It is determined whether it will be one hour, one day or seven days, for example, unless one of the over-riding conditions which someone enumerated intervenes, such as a danger to life. > > Lots, lots more in U.P. under 'niroda samapatti'. > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > Hello Sarah, all I came to acceptance of my limitations to understand every bit of mechanics of action at temporal distance. Time may be a concept and our reification of that concept may provide false difficulties of analysis as I've tried to do. Maybe change is a property of things, rather than an existent "container" (or a "slot" ) in timespace. With metta, Alex #103082 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 10:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Inducing samatha truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Herman, Jon, Alex and all, > > --- On Sun, 29/11/09, jonoabb wrote: > > ============ === > > "But then there is the case where I see a monk sitting, nodding, in the > > wilderness. The thought occurs to me, 'Soon this venerable one will dispel > > his drowsiness & fatigue and attend to the wilderness-percepti on, > > [his > > mind] unified.' And so I am pleased with that monk's wilderness-dwelling . > > ============ === > > J:> In the situation being described here, the wilderness-dwelling monk is one who has the ability to "dispel his drowsiness & fatigue and attend to the wilderness-percepti on". Not every person would have this capability. It shows highly developed aptitude for wilderness dwelling, an aptitude that must be developed first over time. Nor do I read this as saying that going to the wilderness gives a person the ability to dispel drowsiness and fatigue etc. > ... > S: As Maha Kaccana told Sona the first two times when he asked to ordain: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.06.than.html#why > > "It's hard, Sona, the life-long, one-meal-a-day, sleeping-alone celibate life. Please, right there as you are a householder, devote yourself to the message of the Awakened Ones and to the proper-time [i.e., uposatha day] one-meal-a-day, sleeping-alone celibate life." > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > Hello Sarah, all It was common for the Buddha or someone else to deny the request a couple of times before allowing it. Sona did went forth "Then a third time as Sona Kotikanna was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose to his awareness: "According to the Dhamma Master MahaKaccana teaches, it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?" So he went to Ven. MahaKaccana and on arrival, having bowed down to Ven. MahaKaccana, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to Ven. MahaKaccana, "Just now, venerable sir, as I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose to my awareness: 'According to the Dhamma Master MahaKaccana teaches, it's not easy living at home to practice the celibate life totally perfect, totally pure, like a polished shell. What if I were to shave off my hair & beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?' Give me the going-forth, Master MahaKaccana!" So Ven. MahaKaccana gave Sona Kotikanna the going-forth." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.06.than.html It is much easier to focus on examining bare namarupa when you don't have to be involved in conceptual proliferation dealing with taxes (for example), finances, kids, angry bosses and so on. With metta, Alex #103083 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 11:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Contact & Feeling truth_aerator Hi Sarah, all, > sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, (Herman & all), > > #102671 > > --- On Wed, 25/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >Seeing, etc, is always intentional (for non-Arahants) or result of past intentions. > Seeing as result of past intention = vipaka. Resultant from past kamma. Also to see one is required to have attention, or some form of engagement to see. When one is very absorbed into something (has no current intention to see or hear something else), one may not hear or see what happens nearby. > >Phasso plays a role in any cognitive events of non-Arahant. > .... > S: Can you elaborate on what you mean by these two comments? > > Metta > > Sarah Phasso in non-arahant (maybe even in non-aryans) can come with Ignorance. avijjasamphasso. So it is not always bare "contact". Delusion may already underlie that contact. Arahants do not have avijjasamphassa (and trainees have very little of it, perhaps residual and subtke ignorance). With metta, Alex #103084 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 11:27 am Subject: Re: brief summary of insight knowledges truth_aerator Dear Nina, all Thank you for your reply. >N:...at the moment one labels there is thinking, no awareness of > the present reality. So in your opinion, labelling (without controling!) the nama rupa appearing now is incorrect (ala Mahasi Sayadaw style)? With metta, Alex #103085 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 11:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator Dear Sarah, all, >--- sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Alex & all, > > --- On Fri, 4/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: > >In CMA the citta can be either prompted sasankharikam or >unprompted (asankharikam) . > >"Prompted citta Sa-sankharika (lit., with effort) is that which is >prompted, instigated, or induced by oneself or by another. > > `Asankharika' (lit., without effort) is that which is >thus unaffected, but done spontaneously. If, for instance, one does >an act, induced by another, or after much deliberation or >premeditation on one's part, then it is sa-sankharika. If, on the >contrary, one does it instantly without any external or internal >inducement, or any premeditation, then it is asankharika. " - CMA >(Abhidhammattha sangaha by Ven. Narada Mahathera pg 34 or pg 36 in >Bhikkhu Bodhi's CMA > >So some cittas that arise can be unprompted (internally or >externally). So CMA denies totally predictable, deterministic >conditionality. Maybe an aspect of free will is found in >sasankharika (unprompted) cittas? > ... > S: Let's be very clear that all cittas are conditioned and >unpredictable. Conditioning can be of various types. To pick up a cup with right hand requires the possesion of the right hand + other factors. But even if a person has hands, it doesn't mean that s/he will pick up the cup. Are there any situations when citta could do X or do Y? Even though citta did X, it may have done Y. Can that be? Again, the choice does depend on the situation which is determined. >Determinism suggests (to me) that a God or someone or something >determines them. This is not correct. No. What I've meant by determinism is that: our choices & volitions are as free as the choice on the part of the falling ball to stop falling. Or choice of a lying rock to lie or fall. > There is no 'free-will', because this again suggests a Self that >can select or choose. Can there be impersonal citta that can choose among "available" alternatives. Thank you very much for your reply, With metta, Alex #103086 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 11:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: sasa"nkhaarika or asa"nkhaarika, was: everything predetermined? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > --------- > > > A: Prompted citta Sa-sankharika (lit., with effort) is that which is > > prompted, instigated, or induced by oneself or by another. > -------- > N: This is avery general example, but in VIs. XIV I learnt more > details. Sasa"nkhaarika: the citta is weaker, 'with some hesitation'. > It is not as strong as when it is asa"nkhaarika, spontaneous. Also > such examples are a bit general. The main thing: it tells us > something about the strength of the lobha that is sasa"nkhaarika or > asa"nkhaarika. Or the strength of kusala, like generosity. > > Nina. Thank you for example. A question: Which akusala is stronger, prompted or unprompted? Which kusala is better, prompted or unprompted? With metta, Alex #103087 From: "Mike" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 12:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? mikenz66 H Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Sarah: There is no 'free-will', because this again suggests a Self that >can select or choose. > > Alex: Can there be impersonal citta that can choose among "available" alternatives. Yes, I think this is the key point. Can we put aside the repeated claims that anatta proves anything about choice or control (which we are never going to agree on since my conditioning is different to the AS followers :)) and discuss what choice would actually mean in terms of citta? I.e. does a citta have more choice than a falling rock? Metta Mike #103088 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inducing samatha nilovg Dear Alex, Op 4-dec-2009, om 19:57 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > It is much easier to focus on examining bare namarupa when you > don't have to be involved in conceptual proliferation dealing with > taxes (for example), finances, kids, angry bosses and so on. ------ N: not the taxes, finances, kids, angry bosses are at fault. It is our lack of understanding and thus inability to see conditioned naama and ruupa in whatever situation, wherever we are. so, it means that we need to listen more, discuss more, consider more. In this way understanding will grow. Understanding, not a self, not a person, will do the task. of penetrating the truth of all realities. But we have to know the difference between concepts, pa~n~natti and paramattha dhammas. If we do not, we shall always blame the situation, our busy life, for our lack of awareness and understanding. ***** Nina. #103089 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 12:25 pm Subject: Vsm & Vim truth_aerator Hello Sarah, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > What was it you said, Alex, about the Visuddhimagga being based on the Vimuttimagga? Whatever it was, it was very controversial round here:-)) > > Metta > > Sarah VsM is very similar to Vim. In fact it is so similiar that it is not unlikely that it formed a basis for VsM. VsM just has more stories and analytical discussions. There are some difference of opinion between two works. With metta, Alex #103090 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: brief summary of insight knowledges nilovg Dear Alex, Op 4-dec-2009, om 20:27 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > So in your opinion, labelling (without controling!) the nama rupa > appearing now is incorrect (ala Mahasi Sayadaw style)? ------- N: We do not need to speak of someone else's style in order to find out what labeling is. We better try ourselves: is it thinking? The seeing has fallen away for a long time when we say: seeing, seeing. That has nothing to do with the seeing itself that shows its own characteristic of experiencing what is visible. Nina. #103091 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 12:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > H Alex, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Sarah: There is no 'free-will', because this again suggests a Self that >can select or choose. > > > > Alex: Can there be impersonal citta that can choose among "available" alternatives. > > Yes, I think this is the key point. Can we put aside the repeated claims that anatta proves anything about choice or control (which we are never going to agree on since my conditioning is different to the AS followers :)) and discuss what choice would actually mean in terms of citta? I.e. does a citta have more choice than a falling rock? > > Metta > Mike > Hello Mike, all Yes I do wonder if citta has more choice (among the conditioned possibilites, of course) than a falling rock. Would be good if someone would answer it. With metta, Alex #103092 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 1:08 pm Subject: On Carita truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, According to KS, which type of people are most common today? tanha carita with dull faculties tanha carita with intelligent faculties ditthi carita with dull faculties ditthi carita with intelligent faculties? With metta, Alex #103093 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 2:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? kenhowardau Hi Mike and Alex, Butting in again: -------- <. . .> M: > Yes, I think this is the key point. Can we put aside the repeated claims that anatta proves anything about choice or control (which we are never going to agree on since my conditioning is different to the AS followers :)) and discuss what choice would actually mean in terms of citta? I.e. does a citta have more choice than a falling rock? -------- KH: Absolutely no more choice at all! That is what we mean when we say that ultimate reality is mere conditioned dhammas "rolling on." Dhammas are disinterested phenomena; they don't care about the functions they are performing. They have no interest in choice. Ken H #103094 From: "Mike" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 3:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? mikenz66 Hi Ken --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > M: > Yes, I think this is the key point. Can we put aside the repeated > claims that anatta proves anything about choice or control (which we are > never going to agree on since my conditioning is different to the AS > followers :)) and discuss what choice would actually mean in terms of > citta? I.e. does a citta have more choice than a falling rock? > -------- > > KH: Absolutely no more choice at all! That is what we mean when we say > that ultimate reality is mere conditioned dhammas "rolling on." Mike: Thank you for the clarification of what you believe. > KH: Dhammas are disinterested phenomena; they don't care about the functions > they are performing. They have no interest in choice. Whether or not dhammas "care" has no relevance to my question as phrased. Metta Mike #103095 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 3:08 pm Subject: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views truth_aerator > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Mike and Alex, > > Butting in again: > > -------- > <. . .> > M: > Yes, I think this is the key point. Can we put aside the >repeated > claims that anatta proves anything about choice or control (which >we are > never going to agree on since my conditioning is different to the AS > followers :)) and discuss what choice would actually mean in terms >of citta? I.e. does a citta have more choice than a falling rock? > -------- > >KH: Absolutely no more choice at all! That is what we mean when we >say that ultimate reality is mere conditioned dhammas "rolling on." > > Dhammas are disinterested phenomena; they don't care about the >functions they are performing. They have no interest in choice. > > Ken H Hello KenH, Mike, Nina, all, Then how is that really different from: ""'Though one might think, "Through this morality, this practice, this austerity, or this holy life I will ripen unripened kamma and eliminate ripened kamma whenever touched by it" — that is impossible. Pleasure and pain are measured out, the wandering-on is fixed in its limits. There is no shortening or lengthening, no accelerating or decelerating. Just as a ball of string, when thrown, comes to its end simply by unwinding, in the same way, having transmigrated and wandered on, the wise and the foolish alike will put an end to pain.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html Makkhali Gosala's view? Notice your teaching: "Ultimate reality is mere conditioned dhammas "rolling on." Dhammas are disinterested phenomena; they don't care about the functions they are performing. They have no interest in choice." And "There is no shortening or lengthening, no accelerating or decelerating. Just as a ball of string, when thrown, comes to its end simply by unwinding..." - Makkhali Gosala Sounds very similar in the sense of lack of control. With metta, Alex #103096 From: "connie" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 3:35 pm Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 21-22) nichiconn dear pt and all, the Commentary to Without-the-Walls, < [Stanza 3] 21. Herein, so (eva"m) is a term of comparison. It is construable in two ways: either 'Those who, even if they do not recall those creatures owing to their past acts, give something, no matter what, for relatives, are compassionate at heart so (eva"m)' or 'Those who give for relatives pure, good, fitting drink and food at these times so (eva"m), great king, in the way that you are doing, are compassionate at heart'. Do give: dadanti = denti (alternative grammatical form); do dedicate, consign. For relatives (~naatiina"m): for those connected on the mother's and on the father's side. The who (ye): any sons or daughters or brothers. Are: honti = bhavanti (alternative grammatical form). Compassionate (anukampakaa): benevolent, seeking welfare. Pure (suci"m): spotless, good to see, delightful to the mind, in accordance with the True Idea, obtained in accordance with the True Idea. And good (pa.niita"m - lit. 'superior': superlative, best. At these times (kaalena): at a time when ghost relatives have come and are standing without the walls and so on. And fitting (kappiya"m): suitable, becoming, fit for Noble Ones' use. Drink and food: paanabhojana"m = paana~n ca bhojana~n ca (resolution of compound); here anything to be given is intended by the heading 'drink and food'. 22. So, commending the Magadhan king's giving drink and food for ghost relatives, the Blessed One said Eva"m dadanti ~naatiina"m ye honti anukampakaa Suci"m pa.niita"m kaalena kappiya"m paanabhojana"m: 'So they who are compassionate 'At heart do give for relatives 'Such drink and food as may be pure 'And good and fitting at these times:'. And when he had said this, he then uttered the first half of the fourth stanza, namely 'Then let this be for relatives', showing the way in which it is to be given. to be continued, connie #103097 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 4, 2009 9:18 pm Subject: Exalted bliss is Infinite Loving-Kindness! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Infinite Loving-Kindness is an Exalted State! The Blessed Buddha once explained Loving-Kindness like this: This is what is to be done by one who is clever in arousing the advantageous: Having attained the peaceful state. He should be capable, straight, and very upright, easy to speak to, gentle and not proud, contented & easy to support, with few duties , living simple, with senses calmed, devoted, & neither proud nor greedy. He should not do any mean thing, which wise men would criticize. Always should he wish: Let all beings be happy, joyous, glad, safe and secure. Whatever living creatures there exists still or moving, small or large, seen or unseen, far or near, already existing or coming into being, let all living beings without any even single exception be solely fully happy! One should never despise anyone anywhere, nor humiliate anyone anywhere, nor ever wish for any beings misery or harm, because of anger or irritation. Just as a mother would protect her only little son even risking her own life, exactly so should one cultivate an unbounded mentality towards all beings, loving-kindness towards all in this universe. One should cultivate an infinite mind, above, below and across, without barriers, without enmity, matchless. Whether standing, going, sitting, or lying down, even when slumbering should one practise this exalted infinite goodwill. This is said to be a Holy state! Sn 143-151 The Buddha teaching about Infinite Friendliness = Metta <...> Have a nice good-willed day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103098 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 12:20 am Subject: Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views kenhowardau Hi Mike and Alex, ----------- <. . .> Mike: > Whether or not dhammas "care" has no relevance to my question as phrased. ------- Sorry, we must be on different wavelengths. I can't imagine how, or why, a citta - or any other conditioned dhamma - would exercise choice. ------------- <. . .> Alex: > Then how is that really different from: ""'Though one might think, "Through this morality, this practice, this austerity, or this holy life I will ripen unripened kamma and eliminate ripened kamma whenever touched by it" — that is impossible. Pleasure and pain are measured out, the wandering-on is fixed in its limits. There is no shortening or lengthening, no accelerating or decelerating. Just as a ball of string, when thrown, comes to its end simply by unwinding, in the same way, having transmigrated and wandered on, the wise and the foolish alike will put an end to pain.'" <. . .> ------------ KH: Good question, Alex. That sutta has been discussed several times at DSG but, as usual, I have forgotten. I don't think it is directly addressing the question we are discussing here: 'does citta have a choice?' It seems instead to be referring to a view that the end of samsara is somehow independent of the Eightfold Path. ---------------- <. . .> A: > "There is no shortening or lengthening, no accelerating or decelerating. Just as a ball of string, when thrown, comes to its end simply by unwinding..." - Makkhali Gosala Sounds very similar in the sense of lack of control. ---------------- It sounds similar *only* if there is the idea of a self. Makkhali Gosala was obviously thinking of some kind of entity that wandered on from the present moment into the future. But, as we know, there is no such entity. The whole world begins, persists and ends in the present moment. Then some other world will rise up to take its place. There is no wanderer who will continue on from the present world to the next. Ken H #103099 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 1:57 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 10 nilovg Dear friends, The rebirth-consciousness has not been transferred from the past life to this life, it is completely new. However, the conditions for its arising stem from the past. The Path of Purification (166) illustrates this with similes. An echo is not the same as the sound but it originates from the sound. The impression of a seal stamped on wax is not the same as the seal itself, but it originates from the seal. These similes clarify that the present life is different from the past life, but that it is conditioned by the past. There is no transmigration or reincarnation of a self. The person who is reborn consists of five “groups of existence”, the “khandhas”, namely physical phenomena and mental phenomena which are arising and falling away. There is no permanent, unchanging substance which passes from one moment to the next one, from the last moment of life to the first moment of a new life. We read in the scriptures about the former lives of the Buddha and his disciples. The “Birth Stories” relate the former lives of the Buddha when he was still a Bodhisatta and accumulated wisdom and all the other excellent qualities, the “Perfections”, which were the right conditions to become a Buddha in his last life. There were accumulations of wisdom and of the Perfections, but not a person, not a self who accumulated these. There were only the khandhas arising and falling away. Since each citta is succeeded by the next one within the current of countless lives, accumulations are carried on from one life to the next life. ***** Nina. #103100 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Carita nilovg Dear Alex, Op 4-dec-2009, om 22:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > According to KS, which type of people are most common today? > > tanha carita with dull faculties > tanha carita with intelligent faculties > ditthi carita with dull faculties > ditthi carita with intelligent faculties? ------- N: Where did you get this text from? The Visuddhimagga deals with temperaments and I remember that we have all kinds. Nina. #103101 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sasa"nkhaarika or asa"nkhaarika, was: everything predetermined? nilovg Dear Alex, Op 4-dec-2009, om 20:43 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > Which akusala is stronger, prompted or unprompted? > Which kusala is better, prompted or unprompted? ------- N: They all arise because of condiitons and it is of no use to wonder about it, since each citta falls away extremely rapidly. It is already gone when thinking about it. I just quote what I wrote formerly: . This example indicates that there are different degrees of kusala and that these are conditioned by past accumulations. Nobody can direct the citta to be in this way or that way. > Nina. #103102 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 2:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] brief summary of insight knowledges in Patis nilovg Dear Alex and Lukas, Op 26-nov-2009, om 21:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > (8) Knowledge of danger (adiinava-~na.na). Seeing their > dissolution, one contemplates the arising of all formed things as > fearful and dangerous, and their non-arising as safety and peace. -------- Kh Sujin about knowledge of terror and knowledge of danger: < The sixth stage of insight is knowledge of terror, bhaya ~naa.na. When the knowledge of dissolution, banga bhaya ~naa.na. has fallen away, the person who develops vipassanå realizes that defilements are still strong, that there are conditions for their arising to the extent they have been accumulated. He carefully considers the characteristic of dissolution of nåma and rúpa, but the clinging to the concept of self is still firmly accumulated. This kind of clinging can be eliminated by seeing the danger and unsatisfactoriness of the dissolution of nåma and rúpa. Paññå should continue to consider the characteristics of nåma and rúpa and thereby realize more and more the danger and disadvantage of the dissolution of realities. When paññå has become more accomplished there can be the right conditions for the arising of the sixth stage of insight, knowledge of terror. This knowledge sees the danger of nåma and rúpa while it clearly realizes at that moment the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. The seventh stage of insight is knowledge of danger, ådínava bhaya ~naa.na. Knowledge of terror, bhaya bhaya ~naa.na., sees the disadvantage of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, but when this knowledge has fallen away, clinging to the concept of self can still arise; it has not been eradicated. The person who develops satipatthåna understands that the danger and disadvantage of nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away should be realized more deeply and under various aspects. In that way the inclination to take nåma and rúpa for self will decrease. When sati is aware of the characteristics of the realities which arise and fall away paññå becomes keener and sees more clearly the disadvantage of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. Paññå becomes accomplished to the degree that it conditions the arising of knowledge of danger, ådínava bhaya ~naa.na. When this knowledge arises, it clearly realizes the danger and disadvantage of nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away.> (end quote) --------- Nina. #103103 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 3:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) sarahprocter... Hi Alex & all, I appreciated all of your response and the good quotes, extracts and comments in #102702 on the topic of killing/saving someone and so on... --- On Thu, 26/11/09, truth_aerator wrote: >When the body is altered and changed it is only those earth, water, fire, air insentient elements that are altered and changed. When developing the meditation in tune with earth, water, fire, wind and space, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right wisdom, one becomes revulsed with the five elements and makes the mind dispassionate toward the natural material elements which the body is made up of. "Now if other people insult, hurt and harass one, who has discerned this, he discerns that 'A painful feeling, born of ear-contact, has arisen within me. And that is dependent, not independent. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact.' And he sees that contact is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, consciousness is inconstant. His mind, with the element [earth, water, fire, air, space] property as its object/support, leaps up, grows confident, steadfast, & released. And if other people attack and hurt one in ways that are unjust, unfair, cruel and evil one discerns that 'This body made of 4 elements is of such a nature that painful contacts and events come. Don't forget that it is only elements that get altered, changed, affected, beated or destroyed. ===== S: We can see that it is the namas rather than the rupas which are the most dangerous conditiioned dhammas - always seeking pleasure of one kind or other in ignorance.... With regard to the abstention from lying or killing in different circumstances, we can see that (along with abstention from other kinds of harm), it is the understanding and confidence in kusala that works its way that affects such behaviour in the long-term. This is why a sotapanna who has eradicated all idea of atta would not even consider such deeds for a moment under any circumstances. Of course, habits and ideas change slowly. As Nina suggested to you in another thread on lay-life, as understanding develops, we slowly stop blaming the circumstances and begin to understand the realities just as they are at the present moment. I think the same applies here and you've pointed it out beautifully. Metta Sarah ======== #103104 From: "connie" Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 3:58 am Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 23-25) nichiconn dear pt and all, continuing, [Stanza 4 first half] 23. That should be construed with the first half of the third stanza as follows: 'So they who are compassionate at heart do give for relatives [209] [saying] "Then let this be for relatives; may relatives have happiness"'. Consequently it is the demonstration of the mode of giving that is effected here by the word 'so' (eva"m), in the sense of mode thus 'They give so (eva"m) "Let this be for relatives" and not otherwise'. 24. Herein, this (ida"m) indicates the thing to be given. Vo (not rendered) is only a mere particle, as in such passages as 'Kacci pana vo Anuruddhaa samaggaa sammodamaanaa' ('I hope that you all live in concord and agreement, Anuruddha': M i 206) and 'Ye hi vo ariyaa' ('As one of the Noble Ones': M i 17); it is not the genitive [pronoun]. Let ... be for relatives (~naatiina"m hotu): let [this] be for relatives who have appeared in the Ghost Realm. May relatives have happiness (sukhitaa hontu ~naatayo): may those relatives who have appeared in the Ghost Realm have happiness (be happy) when their existence becomes coessential with this. 25. So the Blessed One said Ida'm vo ~naatiina"m hotu, sukhitaa hontu ~naatayo. 'Then let this be for relatives; 'May relatives have happiness'. And when he had said this, showing in what way a gift should be given for relatives who have appeared in the Ghost Realm, he then uttered the second half of the fourth stanza, namely 'These ghosts of the departed kind foregathered and assembled there', and the first half of the fifth, namely, 'Will eagerly ... for plentiful rich food and drink', showing that although it may be said 'Then let this be for relatives', nevertheless it is not that action done by one gives fruit for another, [which is never so,] but simply that an object dedicated in this way is a [necessary] condition for [ghost] relatives [themselves to do] profitable action, [and he showed] how such profitable action with that as its object generates its fruit at that very moment. beautiful. like a jeweled walk. connie #103105 From: Ken O Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] brief summary of insight knowledges in Ptsm ashkenn2k Dear Alex sorry I like to do a correction on this statement <> It should be that citta could also penetrate the characteristics, so does panna but it is panna that bring about attainment. Pse see Summary of Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary pg 66 <> Cheers Ken O ----- Original Message ---- > From: Ken O > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, 5 December 2009 12:16:41 > Subject: Re: [dsg] brief summary of insight knowledges in Ptsm > > Dear Alex > > >Exactly what should be done so that panna should become keener and the > following stage of insight can be reached? > KO: continue to see each nama and rupa as anicca, dukkha and anatta. > > > >Exactly how does one consider the characteristic of nama and rupa? > > > >Does citta labels whatever appears as "seeing, seeing... intending, > intending... moving, moving... Feeling, feeling... Hardness, hardness"? > > > >Does citta simply is aware of the present movement without labelling? > > > >Or does on thinking "XYZ characteristic is nama, that characteristic XYZ is > rupa." > > KO: Citta cognise an object, it is panna that understand the characteristics of > nama and rupa. One consider the characterisic of nama and rupa by > pg 349, Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary > > <> 51. Comprehending mind and materiality by way of characteristic, property and > manifestation is called "purfication of view" > > Commentary > 51. The characteristics is the share particular nature of the dhamma; the > property is their possessing a function; the manifestation is the manner of > appearance and effect > Comprehending by way of their characteristics, etc, stated in this way [either] > in full - contact has the characteristic of contacting, earth the characteristic > of hardness and so one - [or] in short - mind has the characteristic of bending, > materiality of acction, and so on -- taking hold of them by claering > distinguishing them by way of their individual characteristics and determine the > reality of suffering, this is called the purification of view out of > consdieration for the fact that it is a view, because of seeing that there is no > self apart from mind and materiality, and a purification, because of cleaning > away the stain of the view of self.>> > > #103106 From: Ken O Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 7:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views ashkenn2k Dear Ken H there is a choice, it is not exercise by a self but by citta itself. Citta cannot control its objects or its arising mentalities at the point of cognising, but it could make a choice on how to react to it. The accumulated inclinations influence this thinking and reaction. One of the function of citta is to think of an object. If it keep thinking, then it proliferate, if it keep proliferate, it would act accordingly, thus a choice is being make and the action is natural and not control by a self. Panna could not arise without citta thinking of the characteristics of an object. It is the same for aksuala also. I have beeing thinking on this for a long time on how to explain this. It is good we hold true to anatta, but at times it seems there is over doing of anatta that gives an impression of a pre-determine behaviour. Dhamma is anatta, it just mean no control, no free will. But does not mean there is no choice and the choice is not make a by self in any way or so call cheating dhammas which I prefer to say subtle kilesa. It is citta that exercise the choice because it keeps thinking over it, and not a self. or it is a purposedly act to get rid of a self. This is the subtle difference I like to say. Others are most welcome to discuss this. Cheers Ken O #103107 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 8:11 am Subject: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views truth_aerator Hi KenH, Mike, all, >--- "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Mike and Alex, > > ----------- > <. . .> >Mike: > Whether or not dhammas "care" has no relevance to my >question as phrased. > ------- > >Sorry, we must be on different wavelengths. I can't imagine how, or >why, a citta - or any other conditioned dhamma - would exercise >choice. > > ------------- > <. . .> > Alex: > Then how is that really different from: ""'Though one might > think, "Through this morality, this practice, this austerity, or this > holy life I will ripen unripened kamma and eliminate ripened kamma > whenever touched by it" — that is impossible. Pleasure and pain are > measured out, the wandering-on is fixed in its limits. There is no > shortening or lengthening, no accelerating or decelerating. Just as a > ball of string, when thrown, comes to its end simply by unwinding, in > the same way, having transmigrated and wandered on, the wise and the > foolish alike will put an end to pain.'" <. . .> > ------------ > > KH: Good question, Alex. That sutta has been discussed several times at > DSG but, as usual, I have forgotten. I don't think it is directly > addressing the question we are discussing here: 'does citta have a > choice?' That teaching does talk about will, or lack of it. This is what we are discussing. Citta has various and diverse factors affecting it. It is rarely black and white. Citta may have conditions to react in akusala way, or it may have simultaneously factors that may allow it to act in a kusala way. > It seems instead to be referring to a view that the end of > samsara is somehow independent of the Eightfold Path. It refers to total determinism view, which is what we are talking about. > ---------------- > <. . .> > A: > "There is no shortening or lengthening, no accelerating or > decelerating. Just as a ball of string, when thrown, comes to its end > simply by unwinding..." - Makkhali Gosala > > Sounds very similar in the sense of lack of control. > ---------------- > >It sounds similar *only* if there is the idea of a self. Makkhali Gosala > was obviously thinking of some kind of entity that wandered on from the > present moment into the future. If MG taught anatta, would then he be correct in his view? Or there is another difference between MG's view and Buddha's? >KenH: But, as we know, there is no such entity. I agree. However this discussion is about Selfless Citta and whether it has even a limited choice. With metta, Alex #103108 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 8:24 am Subject: On Carita - Nettipakkarana truth_aerator Dear Nina, Robertk2, all, >Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex, > Op 4-dec-2009, om 22:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > According to KS, which type of people are most common today? > > > > tanha carita with dull faculties > > tanha carita with intelligent faculties > > ditthi carita with dull faculties > > ditthi carita with intelligent faculties? > ------- > N: Where did you get this text from? > The Visuddhimagga deals with temperaments and I remember that we >have > all kinds. > Nina. Nettipakkarana, the text that KS quotes as justifying dry insight. Netti has the 4 (2 tanha 2 ditthi) distinctions. Sometimes it has 4 (lustful, hateful, dull view, keen view temperament). The different types have different primary bonds, fetters, hindrances, biases, latent tendencies and methods/strategies (satipatthana) to deal with them. === 1. Four Nutriments (AhAra) [physical nutriment, contact, choice, and consciousness (D. iii, 228)].1 2. Four Perversions (vipallAsa) [seeing beauty (in ugly), pleasure (in painful), permanence (in impermanent), and self, where there are none (in not-self) (A. ii, 52)]. 3. Four Assumptions (upAdAna) [sensual-desire, views, virtue-and-duty, and self-doctrine (D. iii, 230; but see §§257 and 484-7)]. 4. Four Bonds (yoga) [sensual-desire, being, views, and ignorance (D. iii, 230)]. 5. Four Ties (gantha) [covetousness, ill-will, misapprehension of virtueand-duty, and insistence that 'only this is true' (D. iii, 230)]. 6. Four Taints (Asava) [sensual-desire, being, views, and ignorance (A. ii, 211)]. 7. Four Floods (ogha) [sensual-desire, being, views, and ignorance (D. iii, 230)] 8. Four Barbs (salla) [lust, hate, conceit, and delusion (cf. Pe 245)]. 9. Four Steadying-points for consciousness (thiti) [form, feeling, perception, and determinations (D. iii, 228)]. 10. Four Goings on Bad Ways (agati) [through will, hate, fear, and delusion {D. iii, 228)] (cf. Pe 244). §713. Here is the outlet (cf. counterpart at §674):: 1. Four Ways (§42; D. iii, 228). (the painful way with sluggish acquaintanceship, and the painful way with swift acquaintanceship, the pleasant way with sluggish acquaintanceship, and the pleasant way with swift acquaintanceship) 2. Four Foundations of Mindfulness (satipatthAna) [body, feelings, cognizance, ideas (D. iii, 221; but cf. §4 and §730)]. (state of a contemplator-of-the-body-as-a-body, contemplator-of-feelings-as-feelings, contemplator-of-cognizance-as-cognizance, contemplator-of-ideas-as-ideas). 3. Four Meditations (jhana) [1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th (D. iii, 222)]. 4. Four Abidings (vihara) [heavenly, divine, noble, imperturbable (D. iii, 220)]. 5. Four Right Endeavours (sammappadhAna) [the effort to prevent the arising of unarisen unprofit, to get rid of the arisen, to arouse unarisen profit, and to increase the arisen (D. iii, 221)]. 6. Four Wonderful Marvellous Ideas (acchariya-abbhutadhamma) [abandoning conceit, eliminating reliance, abandoning ignorance, pacification of being (Pe 247)]. 7. Four Expressions (adhitthAna) [truth, generosity, understanding, peace (D. iii, 229)]. 8. Four Ways of keeping Concentration in Being (samAdhibhavAnA) [will, energy, cognizance, inquiry = 4 bases for success (D. iii, 222)]. 9. Four ideas dealing with pleasure [faculty-restraint, ardour, discovery, relinquishment of all essentials of existence (Pe 247)]. 10. Four Measureless States (appamAna) [lovingkindness, compassion, gladness, onlooking-equanimity (D. iii, 223; Pe 247)].1 [Alex: 1st of 4 in those 2x10 cases refers to one with tanhacarita dull, or lusting temperament. 2nd of 4 refers to tanhacarita intelligent or hateful temperament. 3rd of 4 refers to dull ditthicarita. 4th refers to intelligent ditthicarita) (tanhacarita, dull): foundations of mindfulness as support with the mindfulness faculty on painful way with sluggish acquaintanceship. (tanhacarita, intelligent): [four] meditations as support with concentration faculty on painful way with swift acquintanceship (abhinna). (ditthicarita, dull): right endeavors as support with energy faculty on the way that is pleasant with sluggish acquaintanceship. (ditthicarita, intelligent): truths as support with understanding faculty on the way that is pleasant with swift acquaintanceship. (tanhacarita, both): by the way of insight heralded by quiet, to the heart-deliverance due to the fading of lust. (ditthicarita, both): by way of quiet heralded by insight, to the understanding-deliverance due to the fading of ignorance. 529. A person of lusting temperament finds outlet by the signless gateway to liberation, training by the training in higher cognizance, abandoning greed as a root of unprofit, not approaching contact to be felt as pleasant, diagnosing pleasant feeling, washing out the stain of lust, shaking off the dust of lust, vomiting forth the poison of lust, extinguishing the fire of lust, extracting the barb of lust, and disentangling the tangle of lust (cf. §44). 530. A person of hating temperament finds outlet by the dispositionless gateway to liberation, training by the training in higher virtue, abandoning hate as a root of unprofit, not approaching contact to be felt as painful, diagnosing painful feeling, washing out the stain of hate, shaking off the dirt of hate, vomiting forth the poison of hate, extinguishing the fire of hate, extracting the barb of hate, and disentangling the tangle of hate. 531. A person of deluded temperament finds outlet by the void gateway to liberation, training by the training in higher understanding, abandoning delusion as a root of unprofit, not approaching contact to be felt as neither-painful-nor-pleasant, diagnosing neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, washing out the stain of delusion, shaking off the dirt of delusion, vomiting forth the poison of delusion, extinguishing the fire of delusion, extracting the barb of delusion, and disentangling the tangle of delusion. 532. Herein, the void gateway to liberation is the understanding category, the signless gateway to liberation is the concentration category, and the dispositionless gateway to liberation is the virtue category.1 When he keeps in being the three gateways to liberation, he keeps in being the three categories, and when he keeps in being the three categories he keeps in being the Noble Eightfactored Path. 533. [91] Herein, right speech, right action, and right livelihood, are the virtue category; right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration, are the concentration category; right view, and right intention, are the understanding category (cf. M. i, 301). 534. Herein, the virtue category and the concentration category are quiet, while the understanding category is insight. 645. Creatures with ignorance for their hindrance and fettered [by craving] to ignorance, explore on the side of ignorance. They are called 'of view-temperament'. Creatures with craving as their fetter and fettered to craving, explore on the side of craving. They are called 'of craving-temperament'. 646. [110] Those of view-temperament who have gone forth [into homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit of self-torment. Those of craving-temperament who have gone forth [into homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit of indulging sensual pleasure among sensual desires (cf. Pe 243-4). 647. Herein what is the reason why those of view-temperament who have gone forth outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit of self-torment, why those of craving-temperament who have gone forth outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit of indulging sensual pleasure among sensual desires ? Outside this [dispensation] there is no definition of truth, so whence any explanation of the four truths, or any skill in quiet and insight,1 or any reaching the pleasure of peace ? 648. With cognizance distorted through having no acquaintanceship with the pleasure of peace, they have made such pronouncements as (M. i, 93), and ( ). So perceiving, and with such views, aspiring to pleasure through pain, [or] perceiving merit in sensual desires, they abide devoted to the pursuit of selftorment and devoted to the pursuit of indulging sensual pleasure. Such being their acquaintanceship, they enrich only the sickness, they enrich only the boil, they enrich only the barb. Overwhelmed by the sickness, oppressed by the boil, wounded by the barb, doing their diving in and out of the hells, the animal womb, ghosts and demons, making their existence co-essential with exhilaration and depression,1 they find no medicine for the sickness, the boil, the barb. ==== With metta, Alex #103109 From: "colette" Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 2:00 pm Subject: LIGITIMACY? ksheri3 Hi Howard, Since I don't have much time I want to address one point at a time. You have the desire to compare the opperations of an existance on falsehoods, lies, based upon the UTILITARIAN aspect of how many people were benefited <.....>Therefore, any operation that exists and is founded upon lies, falsehoods, should then be transferable, interchangeable. Foundations are foundations. Ah, yes, you can say that the foundation of a skyscrapper is not the same foundation of a single family home. True. The foundation of a skyskrapper is not the same foundation as that which supports a bridge. They are all foundations, however. SAMSKARA! Are you habitually controlled by a psychology and philosophy that happens to be Jewish, no problems if you are, I appreciate the Jews and the Jewish traditions. Sure, I've got my pet peaves about their procedures, but that's another story. They got the Kabbalah, and for me, that works, at least it showed me that there are people that understand the depth and unbelievable experience I had when I died and was brought back to life by the EMTs in 1978. > ------------------------------------------------------ > I was never much good at chemistry, Colette. The bottom line: I do not > equate all lying. > ============================== colette: then there is our difference. In my case, for some reason I cannot see any reason to color the actuality of the truth, other than for personal reasons, which ends up turning out to be a lie, a falsehood. In question of a hypothetical "creator deity" then the foundation is established that the truth is the ultimate mixture of sand & water & limestone, etc. Now, if this suppposed creator deity does exist then it is wrong to falsify the cognition of events for a personal reason but if a person falisifies those events and through the falisification the result effects many other people, WELL THEN, we're in an entirely different ballpark of ethics here, aren't we. <....> FAR TOO MUCH TO DO. I THANK YOU ALL FOR THE STIMULATING AND REASONABLE DEBATE ON THESE ISSUES esspecially since I found a reply to my questions about the differences between Dzogchen and Mahamudra which I have to abide in, as of yet. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Colette - > > In a message dated 12/2/2009 11:57:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > ksheri3@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > > I would lie to Nazis and any other criminals to save innocent > people > > from attack. If you think that is comparable to Nazi actions, so be it. > I do > > not. > > You are missing my point completely. > ---------------------------------------------------- > I'm sorry. > --------------------------------------------------- <...> #103110 From: "colette" Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 2:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ksheri3 Hi Icaro, Very helpful. Now, could you be so kind as to tell me WHICH CAME FIRST: MAHAMUDRA or DZOGCHEN? If the likes of Niropa are the foundation for Mahamudra then I would think that Mahamudra came first and Dzogchen is an expansion upon the precepts established. Dzogchen is a hybrid, then. Much like the differences between Sanskrit and Pali, or Latin and English, etc. Don't quote me on that last comparison though since the entire legal system of the West is established and based upon DEATH and the language of DEATH or Latin. <...> colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > > > Hi Colette. > > Respectfully butting in... > > > > What is the definitive quality which sets Mahamudra appart from >Dzogchen? > > You will note that both oh these ways of mindfulness are very alike. Both of them point out to the real stuff of the illuminated mind. But they are different: Dzogchen techniques are a passage to act of Guru Rimpoche´s Tantra teachings. The Mahamudra is the same, with traditions which begin with masters like Tilopa and Naropa, with his "Mahamudra´s song". In both of them you may consider their mindfulness techniques as the following of a script - Mahamudra´s song or Guru Rimpoche´s Tantra - as the same basis some people consider the sheer Abhidhamma reading as a mode of Vipassana. <...> #103111 From: "colette" Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 2:26 pm Subject: PHANTASMS, no? ksheri3 Hi Herman and connie, "ghosts"? What is a ghost? Is a ghost the stuff that dwells dorment in the subconscious or unconscious, FEAR is another aspect. but aren't ghosts psuedo-hallucinations? What is a hallucination? Is it possible for hallucinations to have a "psuedo" aspect? <...> Sorry, but this stuff is very chinese and very Eastern to me, that we are discussing here, and I'm still accustoming myself to the characteristics employed by the Eastern methodology, so please allow me some leaway here. Ghosts can also be the dregs of society who exist in the lowest of poverty through their own unfortunate desires and motivations. Ghosts can exist in poverty and viewed, from the IVORY TOWERS of the wealthy, as being dead, as being appiritions of a past dharam or past time or past existance. So, lets go go running off for actual definitions of this transient term "ghosts" at this point. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi connie, > > 2009/12/2 connie > > > dear pt and all, > > > > And in the king's residence he accepted a great almsgiving. > > 11. Those ghosts then drew near and waited in the hope 'Now[205] the king > > will dedicate the almsgiving to us; now he will dedicate it'. But he thought > > only about a dwelling place for the Blessed One thus 'Where should the > > Blessed One live?', and he did not dedicate that almsgiving to anyone at > > all. The ghosts, finding their hope disappointed, made a horrible screeching > > in the night round the king's residence. > > > I seriously don't get it. Ghosts can think and screech, but they can't talk? <...> #103112 From: "connie" Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 5:11 pm Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 26-27) nichiconn dear pt, Herman and All, [Stanza 4 second half & stanza 5 first half] 26. Here is the meaning of these [two half-stanzas]. These ghosts of the departed kin (te ~naatipetaa), who, there (tattha) where that almsgiving is being given, have foregathered (samaagantvaa) by having come all round (samantato aagantvaa) - what is meant is, who have combined, or who have united - and are assembled (samaagataa: lit. 'are fore-gathered') - what is meant is, are come equally (samaa aagataa) -, [thinking] 'These relatives of ours are dedicating an almsgiving for our benefit', [they] will for the [plentiful] rich food and drink (pahute annapaanamhi), for that rich food and drink dedicated to themselves, eagerly their blessing give (sakkacca"m anumodare), having full faith in the fruit of action, and without abandoning their admiration, [thinking] with undistracted cognizance 'May this almsgiving be for our benefit and welfare', they are glad (modanti) and give blessing (anumodanti: lit. 'share gladness') and are full of happiness and joy. 27. [210] So the Blessed One said Te ca tattha samaagantvaa ~naatipetaa samaagataa Pahute annapaanamhi sakkacca"m anumodare. 'These ghosts of the departed kin 'Foregathered and assembled there 'Will eagerly their blessing give 'For [plentiful] rich food and drink'. And when he had said this, showing how there comes to be profitable action that generates its fruit at the same moment for those who have appeared in the Ghost Realm, he then uttered the second half of the fifth stanza, namely, 'So may our relatives live long', and the first half of the sixth stanza, namely, 'For honour to us has been done', showing the kind of thanksgiving [offered] by those relatives once their existence has become coessential with the fruit of profitable action. also beautiful. rejoice, connie. #103113 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 5, 2009 10:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] LIGITIMACY? upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 12/5/2009 6:20:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: I THANK YOU ALL FOR THE STIMULATING AND REASONABLE DEBATE ON THESE ISSUES ================================ Thanks, Colette. :-) On the issue of whether telling the truth trumps all else under al circumstances, I think we will just have to agree to disagree. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103114 From: Herman Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 6:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is Planet Earth a result of Kamma (kammavipaka)? egberdina Hi Sarah, 2009/12/4 sarah abbott > Hi Herman (& Alex), > > > > As to KV being Buddhavacana, Buddhagosa always overplays > > his hand in making > > any case. He seems to appeal mainly to the > > Dungeons&Dragons enthusiasts. > ... > S: As I said, it may take a little longer, another decade perhaps, before > you accept it as Buddhavacana:-)) > Perhaps, but probably not. In the last twenty years, I have only read 2 works of fiction, the last one only two months ago. It is just not a genre I can get into :-) > ... > > Gotta love that "jewelled stairway that was in the midst of > > the gold and > > silver stairways from the deva world to the city of > > Sankassa," :-) > ... > S: Well, an acquired taste which you seem to be slowly acquiring in spite > of best intentions to not acquire it:-) > What probably is true is that I no longer react with aversion when I read something that asks the reader to take leave of their senses :-) Cheers Herman #103115 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 12:58 am Subject: Bluish Victory! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Seeing the Body as it really is disables desire! The Buddha explained how to regard the body in order to reduce greed: Whether going or standing, sitting or lying, bending or stretching, then one should note fully aware: this is movement of the body, which is a frame of bones joined with sinews, plastered with skin and flesh, full of intestines, stomach, liver, bladder, heart, lungs, kidneys, spleen, slime, mucus, sweat, pus, lymph, blood, joint-fluid, bile, and fat. Filth oozes from its nine holes as tears, earwax, snot, spittle, vomit, bile, urine, semen and excrement. Sweat and dirt stick the body, and its hollow skull is filled with a fatty brain... Only a fool, overwhelmed by ignorance, regards it as beautiful, but when it lies dead, swollen up and bluish, cast away, eaten by dogs, jackals, wolves, worms, crows and vultures nobody cares anymore about it. This impure, and evil-smelling two-footed body is cherished by many and adored as a temple. However: Whoever would be proud of such a body, or would belittle others for their less attractive body, what is this, except lack of genuine insight? The bhikkhu possessing knowledge here, having heard the Buddha's word, indeed understands it, for he sees this body as it really is. As this corps is, so is that body of mine also, understanding this, one can relinquish desire for the body, both one's own and other's. Having eliminated desire, lust & passion, the bhikkhu possessing knowledge here, has arrived at the undying, at imperturbable peace, at the unshakable state of quenching. Sn 193-205 <..> Have a nice desireless day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #103116 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 7:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > H Alex, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Sarah: There is no 'free-will', because this again suggests a Self that >can select or choose. > > > > Alex: Can there be impersonal citta that can choose among "available" alternatives. > > Yes, I think this is the key point. Can we put aside the repeated claims that anatta proves anything about choice or control (which we are never going to agree on since my conditioning is different to the AS followers :)) and discuss what choice would actually mean in terms of citta? I.e. does a citta have more choice than a falling rock? > > Metta > Mike Dear Mike Consider how long one a citta lasts, does it have time to choose. My favourite quote: The burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) xxvii writes about this: QUOTE "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas3)"I can perform" and 4) "I can feel". Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions."endquote. He writes that according to the ancient texts during a flash of lighting biliions of mind moments have already arisen and passed away. WhEN one tries to be aware of these elements one is just noticing some event that happened countless lifetimes ago(when we talk about khanika marana). It seems that one can be aware and this is a persistant illusion underwritten by wrong view- and because of it all the different types of silabataparamsa, the various techniques, keep increasing. So anatta is defined by means of uncontrollabilty: "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the exercise of power. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of opposing self" (see vis. note 3 xxi) There really is no self, merely elements that meet for the tiniest trilliinstant of time and each element is conditioned by many conditions. As nina sometimes says, it is all so amazing that a moment of seeing or any element can arise-. Incredibly complex. People don't like this because they feel they can't do anything but in fact it is progress if one is starting to realise that there is no one to do anything. Robert #103117 From: Herman Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 7:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/12/5 kenhowardau > The whole world begins, persists and ends in the present moment. > Then some other world will rise up to take its place. This is a very grand statement, not unlike other KenH statements. Generally, I quite like them. But the very fact that you made the statement, refutes it's content :-) Cheers Herman #103118 From: "connie" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 7:41 am Subject: Subject: PHANTASMS, no? nichiconn dear colette, colette: Ghosts can also be the dregs of society who exist in the lowest of poverty through their own unfortunate desires and motivations. Ghosts can exist in poverty and viewed, from the IVORY TOWERS of the wealthy, as being dead, as being appiritions of a past dharam or past time or past existance. So, lets go go running off for actual definitions of this transient term "ghosts" at this point. connie: eww - "the heedless are as tho dead" and the fellers whose negligence brought them to impoverished heartlands are still seen that way... insubstantial and fading on stale fare, these shadows towering in the valleys of dry bones. But ok, an 'actual definition' from PaliWords: ghost (m) - pisaaca; peta; amanussa. That kinda opens a bit of a grey area where we can talk about << "Some beings in the lower realms": such beings as the female spirits Uttaramaataa, Piya"nkaramaataa, Phussamittaa, Dhammaguttaa, etc., and other spirits who live in places outside the four planes of misery. For their bodies are of diverse colours, shapes, and sizes, and like humans their perception may be double-roted, triple-rooted, or rootless. But unlike the gods they are not powerful; they are powerless like low-class humans. They have trouble finding food and clothing and live oppressed by pain. Some are afflicted during the dark fortnight and happy during the bright fortnight. Therefore, because they have fallen from the heights of happiness, they are called "beings in the lower realms." Those among them who are triple-rooted can achieve comprehension of the Dhamma. Thus one time at daybreak the female spirit Piya"nkaramaaataa heard the Elder Anuruddha reciting the Dhamma and said (to her son Piya"nkara): "Do not make a sound, Piya"nkara, This bhikkhu is reciting passages of Dhamma, Perhaps we can learn those passages And practise for our true welfare. We should refrain from harming beings And should not tell conscious lies, We should train ourselves in virtue To be freed from the goblin realm." (S.X.6; i,209). Having spoken thus to her little son, she attained the fruit of stream-entry that same day. Uttaramaataa became a stream-enterer after hearing the Dhamma from the Exalted One." - Mahaanidaana Cy. (p99) >> peace, connie #103119 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 8:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > Hi KenH, > > 2009/12/5 kenhowardau kenhowardau@... > > > > The whole world begins, persists and ends in the present moment. > > Then some other world will rise up to take its place. > > > This is a very grand statement, not unlike other KenH statements. Generally, > I quite like them. But the very fact that you made the statement, refutes > it's content :-) > Hi Herman, The fact that I made the statement is a conventional fact, not an ultimate one. Ultimately there is no I and no statement; just nama and rupa. You can have endless fun mixing conventional facts with the Dhamma. But that's what that kind of fun is - endless! Endless wandering in samsara! So be warned. :-) Ken H #103120 From: Herman Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 8:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/12/5 kenhowardau > > Hi Mike and Alex, > > Butting in again: > > -------- > <. . .> > M: > Yes, I think this is the key point. Can we put aside the repeated > claims that anatta proves anything about choice or control (which we are > never going to agree on since my conditioning is different to the AS > followers :)) and discuss what choice would actually mean in terms of > citta? I.e. does a citta have more choice than a falling rock? > -------- > > KH: Absolutely no more choice at all! That is what we mean when we say > that ultimate reality is mere conditioned dhammas "rolling on." > > Dhammas are disinterested phenomena; they don't care about the functions > they are performing. They have no interest in choice. > > Again, your grand statement of the way things are, again which I quite liked, is again refuted by the post you send. So, there's a bit of a pattern here, I reckon. You are interested enough to send a post, but you don't exist. You chose your words well and wisely, but the post doesn't exist. It sounds more and more like you embrace a grand nihilism? Cheers Herman #103121 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 9:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views kenhowardau Hi Ken O ------------ <. . .> KO: > there is a choice, it is not exercise by a self but by citta itself. Citta cannot control its objects or its arising mentalities at the point of cognising, but it could make a choice on how to react to it. The accumulated inclinations influence this thinking and reaction. One of the function of citta is to think of an object. If it keep thinking, then it proliferate, if it keep proliferate, it would act accordingly, thus a choice is being make and the action is natural and not control by a self. Panna could not arise without citta thinking of the characteristics of an object. It is the same for aksuala also. -------------- I think you are applying the designation "choice" to some agreed upon understandings of the Abhidhamma. That is very diplomatic. :-) But, really, are you addressing the questions actually asked by Mike and Alex? I they are asking about something *in addition* to conditioned dhammas. ------------------------- KO: > I have beeing thinking on this for a long time on how to explain this. It is good we hold true to anatta, but at times it seems there is over doing of anatta that gives an impression of a pre-determine behaviour. Dhamma is anatta, it just mean no control, no free will. But does not mean there is no choice and the choice is not make a by self in any way or so call cheating dhammas which I prefer to say subtle kilesa. It is citta that exercise the choice because it keeps thinking over it, and not a self. or it is a purposedly act to get rid of a self. This is the subtle difference I like to say. -------------------------- You say there is, at times, 'an over doing of anatta that gives an impression of a pre-determined behaviour.' I would say there is at those times an under doing of anatta. Anatta means there is no self, only dhammas, and so the question of free-will/determinism does not apply. ------------------ KO: > Others are most welcome to discuss this. ------------------ Yes, while there is any doubt, lets all discuss it. Most important! Ken H #103122 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 10:05 am Subject: Re: On Carita - Nettipakkarana rjkjp1 Dear Alex have you looked at the Commentary to the Netti, If I remember correctly it explains that with regard to caritta these can be expanded to over 1000 becuase everyone has elements of all in varying intensities, no time to look this up but if you do a search I can have a go at translating the section. robert #103123 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 10:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? rjkjp1 Dear Mike take the conventional case of choice. We decide to go for coffee at Mccafee rather than starbucks- a choice I make most mornings as both are within a few minutes walk of my apartment. Me: Do you feel like mac or starbucks? Junko: up to you. Me: ok lets go macafe, haven't been this week. Junko: ok me: but usually they don't have a newspaper. Junko: ok: me: lets go starbucks junko:ok me: but starbucks cost 110 baht now, &&%$ ripoff. junko: ok shall we go macafee, you can use your discount card. Me: good idea. we start walking.. half way there I remember I forget my phone..back to apartment. Me: I think starbucks tastes better> Junko: ok We go to starbucks, all the newspapers are being read by other patrons... Me: *&^$, why don't they buy more papers, shall we go to Au Bon Pan - the coffee is ok and they have newspapers.. Junko: ok How many cittas in that little episode? In fact how many cittas just in one split second.. Many cittas, for example vipaka citta like seeing,are the result of kamma and many others are during the javana process . And during the javana process the cittas there are usually rooted in lobha, greed of some degree. it seems like someone is making a choice but it is merely greed performing its function assisted by many other factors. Sometimes Buddhist realise that going to have coffee is rooted in greed so they 'choose' not to go. But then there are other types of lobha, such as the one associated with wrongview that makes one perform special practices. One avoids the sense object- but is unaware of the attachment that is performing its function of clininging to some type of ascetism or method. Robert --- > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > > > > H Alex, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > > > Sarah: There is no 'free-will', because this again suggests a Self that >can select or choose. > > > > > > Alex: Can there be impersonal citta that can choose among "available" alternatives. > > > > Yes, I think this is the key point. Can we put aside the repeated claims that anatta proves anything about choice or control (which we are never going to agree on since my conditioning is different to the AS followers :)) and discuss what choice would actually mean in terms of citta? I.e. does a citta have more choice than a falling rock? > > > > Metta > > Mike > #103125 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Alex), I thought the following was a very helpful response to Alex's comments: --- On Thu, 3/12/09, upasaka@... wrote: >Not quite so easy, I think, Alex. There is, indeed, exertion. But it is conditioned, is it not? And, in fact, it entirely depends on conditions without any aspect of its arising being unconditioned, is that not so? And as for there being the *possibility* for developing pa~n~na etc, is that not also entirely determined by conditions and not random? What do we really mean by "free will"? I think it actually comes down to the fact that there are thought processes that consider and compare alternative actions, matching them against desired goals, and culminating in an act of volition. We *call* that process "deciding" and "exercising free will," but none of it is free in the sense of being random or unconditioned. .... S: Nicely put. Alex, dhammas arising now are not only conditioned by past conditions, but also by present conditions too, of course. If there were any exceptions to the arising of conditioned dhammas, a) wouldn't the Buddha have known and b) how would he have been able to have omniscient powers, able to foresee the future destinies of any beings he put his mind to? Metta Sarah ======== #103126 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, Alex & all, --- On Thu, 3/12/09, kenhowardau wrote: " 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences. .. is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. --This shouldn't be done. --------- >Correct me if I am wrong but I think the above is simply saying "I have free will" and "I do not have free will" are the two extremes. ... S: I haven't checked, but I thought it was saying that we can't blame past kamma for all our present defilements. Akusala vipaka to receive the blows, but akusala accumulations to kill or lie on account of them.... Just my quick suggestions... Metta Sarah ======== #103127 From: Herman Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/12/6 kenhowardau > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman wrote: > > > > Hi KenH, > > > > 2009/12/5 kenhowardau kenhowardau@... > > > > > > > The whole world begins, persists and ends in the present moment. > > > Then some other world will rise up to take its place. > > > > > > This is a very grand statement, not unlike other KenH statements. > Generally, > > I quite like them. But the very fact that you made the statement, > refutes > > it's content :-) > > > Hi Herman, > > The fact that I made the statement is a conventional fact, not an > ultimate one. Ultimately there is no I and no statement; just nama and > rupa. > > You can have endless fun mixing conventional facts with the Dhamma. But > that's what that kind of fun is - endless! Endless wandering in samsara! > So be warned. :-) > > I'm glad I paid my phone bill. Else I wouldn't have got this email about ultimate reality :-) Cheers Herman #103128 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ptsm: Insight Steps to bare Arhatship sarahprocter... Dear pt, --- On Wed, 2/12/09, ptaus1 wrote: >>S: Doesn't even the ariyan continue to develop sutamaya-~naana too? The arahat also? >a)So arahats continue to develop their faculties? b)What's stopping them from developing their faculties up to the level of a sammasambuddha (like the unshared knowledges for example)? Thanks. .... S: a)Yes, no kamma, but bhavana(mental development) continues whenever there is right understanding... b)Impossible for anyone other than a bodhisatta (who has fulfilled all the conditions for becoming a bodhisatta in the presence of a previous (sammasam)Buddha) to become a sammasambuddha on attaining full enlightenment. Only one sammasambuddha in a Buddha era, so the next won't be until the teachings have completely died out, and the position has been filled a long, long time ago:-) Does that answer it? Metta Sarah ======= #103130 From: "Icaro" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 12:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) icarofranca Hi Collete! > Hi Icaro, > > Very helpful. Now, could you be so kind as to tell me > > WHICH CAME FIRST: MAHAMUDRA or DZOGCHEN? Both, Mahamudra and Dzogchen, are grounded on very ancient traditions. Even if you consider that Buddhism, at its beginning, hasn´t any tract with tantra, many quotes of "Mahamudra's song" ( which I know better than Dzogchen´s), may be tracked down to some passages of Pali Canon, even to Abhidhamma´s Dathukatha - strange as it seems, a very interested and attentive Abhidhamma reader can link the right ideas. As a corpus of written texts, Mahamudra´s song and Guru Rimpoche´s Tantras emerged on Índia more or less at the same time, circa VIII century, at the Tantra flourishment. As an opinion, Mahamudra´s song may be older a good hundred years. A very unsuspect source of Dzogchen´s information, teachings, masters and experiences is the good and old Adan West - yes! The old Batman TV series main actor! He is a long time Dzogchen practicioner and a reader of all that concerns it! >Don't quote me on that last comparison though since the entire legal >system of >the West is established and based upon DEATH and the >language of >DEATH or >Latin. <...> Don´t worry, Collete! I won´t grill you about Latin remarks. Or Hebrew or Aramaic for sure! That´s not necessary! Mettaya Ícaro #103131 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 3:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] brief summary of insight knowledges in Patis nilovg Dear Alex and Lukas. Op 26-nov-2009, om 21:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > (9)Knowledge of indifference to formations (sankharupekkha~na.na). > Seeing all formations as fearful produces desire for deliverance > from them, which impels one to review them fully in the light of > the knowledge so far acquired. Owing to this, one achieves > composure at the prospect of abandoning them. -------- N: We read in the Vis. Ch XXI, that Knowledge of indifference to formations (sankharupekkha~na.na) is the same in meanings as the two that precede it. "At the outset it has the name of Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance. In the middle it has the name Knowledge of Rewflexion. At the end when it has reached culmination it is called Knowledge of Equanimity about Formations." Kh Sujin, beginning at the eighth stage of vipassanaa: < The eighth stage of vipassanå ~naa.na is knowledge of dispassion, nibbidå ~naa.na. When the danger of all conditioned realities is realized they seem to be like a building which has caught fire. The clinging to life becomes less when one clearly sees the futility of the nåma and rúpa which appear. Then there is knowledge of dispassion, nibbidå ~naa.na. The ninth stage of vipassanå ~naa.na is knowledge of desire for deliverance, muccitukamyatå ~naa.na. When paññå realizes more and more clearly the futility of the nåma and rúpa which appear, and it becomes more detached from them, paññå wants to become liberated from nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away. The paññå which wants to be liberated is knowledge of desire for deliverance, mucitukamyatå ~naa.na. The tenth stage of vipassanå ~naa.na is knowledge of reflexion, pa.tisa.nkhå ~naa.na. When paññå arises which wants to be liberated from nåma and rúpa and this wish has become stronger, pañña will be inclined to consider over and over again the three general characteristics of conditioned dhammas: impermanence, dukkha and anattå. When paññå clearly realizes the characteristic of impermanence of all conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away, it sees them as completely devoid of any security, as fleeting, unenduring, changeable, unstable and as no refuge. When paññå clearly realizes the characteristic of dukkha of all conditioned ralities which arise and fall away, it sees them as continually oppressive, as something threatening from which there is no escape, as something incurable, as danger, as something unattractive, not worth clinging to. When paññå clearly realizes the characteristic of anattå of all conditioned realities which arise and fall away, it sees them as empty, void, as something that cannot be owned, as beyond control. The paññå which clearly realizes the three characteristics of all conditioned dhammas, saòkhåra dhammas, is knowledge of reflexion, pa.tisa.nkhå ~naa.na. The eleventh stage of vipassanå ~naa.na is knowledge of equanimity about conditioned dhammas, sa"nkhaarupekkhaa ~naa.na. When the paññå which clearly realizes the three general characterisitics of all conditioned dhammas has become more accomplished, there will be less inclination to take conditioned dhammas for permanent, for happiness or for self. Thus, there can be more equanimity towards conditioned dhammas. The person who develops vipassanå knows that so long as nibbåna does not appear and paññå can therefore not penetrate its characteristic, he should continue to investigate whichever of the three general characteristics of conditioned realities appears as object. The paññå which leads to equanimity towards the conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away is knowledge of equanimity about conditioned dhammas, sa"nkhaarupekkhaa ~naa.na. This knowledge is the insight which leads to attainment of what is supreme, it leads to emergence. It is the paññå which conditions someone to leave the state of an ordinary person, and this occurs when the magga-citta, path-consciousness, arises. (end quote) -------- Nina. #103132 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 7:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Carita - Nettipakkarana nilovg Dear Alex and Robert, Op 5-dec-2009, om 17:24 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > 645. Creatures with ignorance for their hindrance and fettered [by > craving] to ignorance, explore on the side of ignorance. They are > called 'of view-temperament'. Creatures with craving as their > fetter and fettered to craving, explore on the side of craving. > They are called 'of craving-temperament'. ------- N: See Rob's post: And so it is. It is so complex, due to various accumulations over the aeons. Think of all the aeons we had to go through. I cannot say much, because I have to finish some work, before I take a break later on. Nina. #103133 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 7:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sankassa. was: Is Planet Earth ... nilovg Dear Herman, Op 6-dec-2009, om 7:52 heeft Herman het volgende geschreven: > Gotta love that "jewelled stairway that was in the midst of > > > the gold and > > > silver stairways from the deva world to the city of > > > Sankassa, ------- N: Yes, a lovely place. A difficult stony path up hill and Kh Sujin ran up like a young girl. I do not know how she did this. I had to have help to stumble up and then down again, but I did not mind. The excavations are wonderful, remnants of a lion and a small temple. So good to recollect the teaching of the Abhidhamma over there. Believe me or not, but the Abhidhamma can be verified now, at this moment. That is the best recollection of the Buddha's wisdom, compassion and purity. Each time there is just a little understanding we can recollect the Buddha's excellent qualities. Nina. #103134 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Carita - Nettipakkarana truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Alex and Robert, > Op 5-dec-2009, om 17:24 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > > > 645. Creatures with ignorance for their hindrance and fettered [by > > craving] to ignorance, explore on the side of ignorance. They are > > called 'of view-temperament'. Creatures with craving as their > > fetter and fettered to craving, explore on the side of craving. > > They are called 'of craving-temperament'. > ------- > N: See Rob's post: to caritta these can be expanded to over 1000 becuase everyone has > elements of all in varying intensities> > And so it is. It is so complex, due to various accumulations over the > aeons. Think of all the aeons we had to go through. > I cannot say much, because I have to finish some work, before I take > a break later on. > Nina. > > Dear Nina, RobertK2, Thank you all for your replies. As to Netti. To be to the point: If person is mostly Tanha-Carita, then one should follow insight preceded by tranqullity to understand Buddha's teaching. If one is mostly ditthi-carita, then tranquility is preceded by insight. If someone of predominantly one type, follows the instructions not aimed at him/her, then teaching may not be fully understood. With metta, Alex #103136 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 7:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Ken H, Alex & all, > > --- On Thu, 3/12/09, kenhowardau wrote: > > > " 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences. .. > is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they > admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a > killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person > is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh > speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong > views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what > was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no > effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. --This shouldn't be done. > --------- > > >Correct me if I am wrong but I think the above is simply saying "I have > free will" and "I do not have free will" are the two extremes. > ... > S: I haven't checked, but I thought it was saying that we can't blame past kamma for all our present defilements. Akusala vipaka to receive the blows, but akusala accumulations to kill or lie on account of them.... > > Just my quick suggestions... > > Metta > > Sarah > ======== > Thank you Sarah, So by saying that we have the choice after: >S: Akusala vipaka to receive the blows, Not to >S: "to kill or lie on account of them...." means that there IS a degree of possible choice? That we are not doomed to be killers, rapists, thieves, good people or bad people, on account of past kamma? The choice to be good or bad isn't as powerless as a rock falling down (and has no choice to fall or to remain motionless) With metta, Alex #103137 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 9:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Ken O > > ------------ > <. . .> > KO: > there is a choice, it is not exercise by a self but by citta > itself. > Citta cannot control its objects or its arising mentalities at the point > of > cognising, but it could make a choice on how to react to it. The > accumulated > inclinations influence this thinking and reaction. One of the function > of citta > is to think of an object. If it keep thinking, then it proliferate, if > it keep > proliferate, it would act accordingly, thus a choice is being make and > the > action is natural and not control by a self. Panna could not arise > without > citta thinking of the characteristics of an object. It is the same for > aksuala > also. > -------------- > > I think you are applying the designation "choice" to some agreed upon > understandings of the Abhidhamma. That is very diplomatic. :-) But, > really, are you addressing the questions actually asked by Mike and > Alex? I they are asking about something *in addition* to conditioned > dhammas. > > ------------------------- > > You say there is, at times, 'an over doing of anatta that gives an > impression of a pre-determined behaviour.' I would say there is at those > times an under doing of anatta. Anatta means there is no self, only > dhammas, and so the question of free-will/determinism does not apply. > Hello KenH, and all interested, So, conventionally speaking, a person has no choice but to be a killer, a rapist, a thief or a saint, all due to past conditions? Is the volition of the Citta as powerless as a rock rolling down the hill? Does this means that effort of Citta to change its akusala to kusala volition is as powerless as a rock rolling down the hill? With metta, Alex (who had no choice but to post this post) #103138 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 1:17 am Subject: Is everything predetermined like a rock rolling down the hill? truth_aerator Dear RobertK2, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Mike > Consider how long one a citta lasts, does it have time to choose. > Choosing a conditioned process. Thus of course during the process of deliberation, many mind states rise and fall. While the citta that picks and citta that chooses are not identical, neither is the process totally different. > My favourite quote: The burmese Abhidhamma teacher Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (PTS) > xxvii writes about this: > > QUOTE > "Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and > > 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas3)"I can perform" and > > 4) "I can feel". > > Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions."endquote. > > He writes that according to the ancient texts during a flash of lighting biliions of mind moments have already arisen and passed away. > > WhEN one tries to be aware of these elements one is just noticing some event that happened countless lifetimes ago(when we talk about khanika marana). > It seems that one can be aware and this is a persistant illusion underwritten by wrong view- and because of it all the different types of silabataparamsa, the various techniques, keep increasing. > > So anatta is defined by means of uncontrollabilty: > "It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the exercise of power. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of opposing self" > > (see vis. note 3 xxi) > > There really is no self, merely elements that meet for the tiniest trilliinstant of time and each element is conditioned by many conditions. As nina sometimes says, it is all so amazing that a moment of seeing or any element can arise-. Incredibly complex. > > People don't like this because they feel they can't do anything but in fact it is progress if one is starting to realise that there is no one to do anything. > Robert > I like those quotes as well. However, for sense cognition to occur there must be what is translated as "attention" or "engagement". A person who has studied Dhamma, has a new outlook on things. So can a citta train to have correct, rather than worldly attention? Of course sometimes the kilesas may be so strong that a lustful person has almost no possibility to refrain from staring at a hot girl. But does this mean that one cannot practice to avoid having wrong attention? Is attention as conditioned as a rock rolling down the hill? Or is there a possibility for choice (either do this or that)? With metta, Alex #103139 From: "Mike" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 1:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views mikenz66 Alex, etc, Conditioned by past knowledge and experience a simile occurred to me. We, in the field of physics, know that light (and other electromagnetic radiation) is quantized, so if we make the appropriate measurements it alwasy comes in little chunks (quanta). On the other hand, for a vast number of practical applications we can do calculations assuming that light is a wave. During the 1950s various people started talking about building lasers. In a laser all of the quanta are vibrating coherently (in phase), giving a very high intensity, and other useful properties. That is before my time, but according to Charles Townes, one of the pioneers in this area, a number of famous physicists told him that building a laser would be impossible because light comes in quanta and there is no way to get them to vibrate in phase. Of course, this turned out to be complete nonsense - those people were over-interpreting the quantum nature of light. The explanation of how light can on the one hand be quantized but on the other hand can behave like a classical wave given the right conditions (i.e. by building a laser...) is rather complicated, but very beautiful. The Dhamma, as explained in the Suttas and Abhidhamma is also very beautiful and very complicated. I am grateful for the knowledge that various people bring to this group. However, I do worry that some arguments I hear here ("citta rise and fall in a small fraction of a second therefore...", "there is no self to be found, therefore...") are oversimplifying in an analogous way to the laser nay-sayers of the 1950s and therefore overlooking some aspect of the beauty of the Dhamma. Please note that I have no argument with what I have read of the Suttas, Abhidhamma, and ancient Commentaries, and I am certainly not arguing for a self, etc. I just think that there is an over-use of arguments based on the the speed of citta or the anatta characteristic. This seems unfortunate, since it may be preventing the consideration of more meaningful arguments. The Abhidhamma is vast and complex. It would be a pity to reduce all discussions of its power to: "citta rise and fall rapidly and there is no self". Metta Mike #103140 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 2:39 am Subject: "dhamma rolling on" vs connivance to kilesas truth_aerator Hello Mike, all, Thank you for your interesting post. I think that conditionality is a bit more complex than linear mechanistic view. Conditions are rarely black and white (especially in a triple rooted being in Human or higher realms) and there may be conditions for 2 or more possible actions possible. Often even though citta has behaved in this way, it could have behaved in another way. But even if we do accept deterministic process, I think that by saying "nothing can be done... No use trying... etc" is a sort of condition itself. I hope that it doesn't condone the lack of right effort to remove the kilesas. I am not sure that a view where one simply studies is totally "right" view. Right view leads to right effort and so on. Connivancy to kilesas should not be done. Considering the strength of kilesas (which often out forces the good qualities) certain phrases "nothing can be done... No use trying... etc" when taken too far may simply encourage kilesas to sit at the thrown. Buddha didn't quite use these sort of teachings "no use trying. You can't change anything..." in the suttas. Maybe all the quotes of superhuman effort was to set appropriate types of conditions, even if there is just a 100% deterministic process. Buddha didn't condone complacency: "Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html "And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will...cruelty... Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to destroy these things do not arise for him when he destroys them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html Note the strong phrasing of: "He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them,&wipes them out of existence." With metta, Alex #103141 From: "connie" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 2:38 am Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 28-31) nichiconn dear pt and all, the commentary to: [Stanza 5 second half & stanza 6 first half] 28. Here is their meaning. So may ... live long (cira"m jiivantu): may [they] have a long life-span. Our relatives (no ~naatii): our relations (~naataka). Owing to whom (yesa"m hetu): depending on whom, by reason of whom. We have this gain: labhaamase = labhaama (alternative grammatical form); they speak acknowledging the excellence just gained by themselves at that moment; for it is with three factors, namely, with their own thanksgiving, with the giver's dedication, and with the excellence of the recipients, [namely, the Community head by the Buddha,] that the offering succeeds and generates its fruit at that very moment, and of these [three] the giver was the special cause, which is why they said 'Owing to whom we have this gain'. 29. For honour to us has been done (amhaaka~n ca kataa puujaa): honour has been done to us by those dedicating their almsgiving thus 'Then let this be for relatives'. No giver ever lacked the fruit (daayakaa ca anipphalaa): the givers never lack the fruit [of their giving] since the action consisting in giving up gives fruit then and there in that continuity in which it was performed. 30. Here it may be asked: But how is it, then, do only relatives reborn in the Ghost Realm gain it or do others gain it too? - This has been answered by the Blessed One himself when questioned by Jaa.nussoni of the Divine Caste, so need be said by us here? For this is said: 'Master Gotama, we Divines make almsgivings and give funereal offerings thus "May this serve for departed (peta) relatives and kin; may departed relatives and kin make use of this gift". Does that almsgiving serve for departed relatives and kin, Master Gotama? Do those departed relatives and kin make use of it? - It serves when they are in the place for it, Divine, not when they are not in the place for it. - But, Master Gotama, what is the place for it, and what is not the place for it? - Here, Divine, someone is a killer of breathing things, a taker of what is not given, misconducted in sensual desires; he speaks falsehood, speaks maliciously, speaks harshly, and gossips; he is covetous, has cognizance of ill will, and has wrong view. [211] On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in hell. There he survives and subsists on the kind of nutriment that the denizens of hell have. That is not the place and no almsgiving serves him while he remains there. Here, Divine, someone is a killer of breathing things ... and has wrong view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the animal womb. There he survives and subsists on the kind of nutriment that creatures conceived in the animal womb have. That too is not the place, and no almsgiving serves him while he remains there. Here, Divine, someone abstains from killing breathing things, from taking what is not given, and from misconduct in sensual desires; he abstains from false speech, from malicious speech, from harsh speech, and from gossip; he is uncovetous, has no cognizance of ill will, and has right view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of human beings. There he survives and subsists on the kind of nutriment that human beings have ... he reappears in the company of gods. There he survives and subsists on the kind of nutriment that gods have. That too is not the place, and no almsgiving serves him while he remains there. However, here someone is a killer of breathing things, ... has wrong view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the Ghost Realm. There he survives and subsists on the kind of nutriment that the denizens of the Ghost Realm have, or else there he survives and subsists on what his friends or his companions or his relatives and kin offer up for his sake from here [in this existence]. That is the place, and an almsgiving serves him while he remains there. - But Master Gotama, if that deceased relative has not reappeared in that place, who makes use of that almsgiving? - There are relatives and kin of his, Divine, who have reappeared in that place. They make use of that almsgiving. - But, Master Gotama, if that deceased relative has not reappeared in that place, and if other relatives and kin of his have not reappeared in that place, who makes use of that almsgiving? - It is impossible, Divine, it cannot happen, that that place should be empty of relatives of his in this long extent [of the round of rebirths]: and furthermore, no giver ever lacked the fruit' (A i 269-71). 31. [212] So the Blessed One said Cira"m jiivantu no ~naatii yesa"m hetu labhaamase, Amhaaka~n ca kataa puujaa daayakaa ca anipphalaa. '"So may our relatives live long 'Owing to whom we have this gain; 'For honour to us has been done, 'No giver ever lacked the fruit"'. And when he had said this, showing the king of Magadha how his relatives who had appeared in the Ghost Realm were giving praise supported by [their new-found] excellence thus 'Great king, these relatives of yours, being satisfied with the excellence in the giving, are praising you thus', then he uttered the second half of the sixth stanza, namely, 'For there is never ploughing there' and the seventh stanza, namely, 'Nor merchandizing just the same', showing how those who have appeared in the Ghost Realm find their sustenance through what is given from here in the absence of any other [such source as] ploughing (farming), cattle-herding, etc., as a reason for their obtaining excellence. peace, connie #103142 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 10:53 pm Subject: The silent Sage... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Sage is a stilled seer, sweet in his silence! The Buddha explained the sweet, yet solid silence of the sage: From all acquaintance, association, affiliation, and attachment, fear arises! From any form of civil house-life emerges a mentally dull and dusty pollution! The sage therefore prefers the disentangled and dissociated houseless state. He who has cut down what has grown up accumulating, and who would never neither plant anything new, nor irrigate what has already sprung up, him they call a solitary wandering sage. Such great seer has seen the state of peace... Having considered and comprehended all the fields of constructing activity, having killed all initiation and all clinging affection, such sage indeed, seeing the end of both birth and death, is beyond both speculation and designation! Knowing all stations of the mind, yet detached from them all, a silenced sage with neither greed nor preference, does neither any good nor any bad action, for he has gone beyond to the far shore, by not accumulating any kamma... Overcoming all, knowing all, very intelligent, unattached to all phenomena, giving up all, completely released by the destruction of craving, such one the wise know as a sage. One who has the power of wisdom, endowed with pure virtue and ascetic praxis, concentrated, delighting in meditation, possessing continuous mindfulness, released, detached, with neither mental barrenness, nor with any mental fermentation brewing, such one the wise know as a sage. Persistent, unshaken by blame & praise like a lion not trembling at any sound, or like the wind not caught in any net, or like a lotus not defiled by any mud. The sage is wandering alone, attentive, leading others, not to be led by any. In the midst of oppression, despise & accusation he becomes imperturbable like a pillar, with passion gone, with senses well under control... Immovable, straight, upright, direct, never ever deviating, disgusted with all evil deeds, examining both good & bad conduct, such one the wise surely know as a sage. Fully restrained, fully self-controlled, who cannot be angered and who never angers anyone, who does no evil, and who neither praises, nor criticizes any other, him indeed the wise know as a sage. Constantly protecting all living & breathing beings, the sage meditating in the remote forest, all beyond both company and sex, completely released, not tied to anything, never negligent, knowing all in this world, seeing the highest goal, having crossed the flood, such a one, with his bonds completely cut, not fettered, without any mental pollution, unselfish, swift and elevated, him indeed the wise know as a sage... Sn 207-221 <....> Have a nice silent day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #103143 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 3:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views kenhowardau Hi Alex, -------- <. . .> KH: > Anatta means there is no self, only > > dhammas, and so the question of free-will/determinism does not apply. A: > So, conventionally speaking, a person has no choice but to be a killer, a rapist, a thief or a saint, all due to past conditions? -------- What makes you say that? I didn't give an opinion one way or the other on conventional reality. As far as I know, the Dhamma doesn't give an opinion on conventional reality either. Why would it? --------------- A: >Is the volition of the Citta as powerless as a rock rolling down the hill? Does this means that effort of Citta to change its akusala to kusala volition is as powerless as a rock rolling down the hill? ---------------- Akusala citta has akusala effort. Kusala citta has kusala effort. Ken H #103144 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 3:18 am Subject: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill truth_aerator Hello KenH, all, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > -------- > <. . .> > KH: > Anatta means there is no self, only > > > dhammas, and so the question of free-will/determinism does not > apply. > > A: > So, conventionally speaking, a person has no choice but to be a > killer, a rapist, a thief or a saint, all due to past conditions? > -------- > > What makes you say that? I didn't give an opinion one way or the other > on conventional reality. > > As far as I know, the Dhamma doesn't give an opinion on conventional > reality either. Why would it? Please answer that conventional question. As to ultimate question: Is it possible for a citta to chose to do kusala rather than akusala, or at least to refrain from akusala - at least in some cases? Or if the conditions are right, there is no choice but to be a serial killer, a thief or a rapist (conventionally speaking)? > --------------- > A: >Is the volition of the Citta as powerless as a rock rolling down the > hill? Does this means that effort of Citta to change its akusala to > kusala volition is as powerless as a rock rolling down the hill? > ---------------- > > Akusala citta has akusala effort. Kusala citta has kusala effort. > > Ken H But are the conditions deterministic and unable/powerless to change like a rock rolling down the hill is powerless to chose rolling down the hill or to stop? With metta, Alex #103145 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 6, 2009 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/6/2009 10:11:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Akusala citta has akusala effort. Kusala citta has kusala effort. ================================== Wholesome states can arise from unwholesome ones. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103146 From: "Mike" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 4:45 am Subject: Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs connivance to kilesas mikenz66 Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > Alex: Thank you for your interesting post. I think that conditionality is a bit more complex than linear mechanistic view. Conditions are rarely black and white (especially in a triple rooted being in Human or higher realms) and there may be conditions for 2 or more possible actions possible. Often even though citta has behaved in this way, it could have behaved in another way. Yes, the conditionality is clearly very complex, which is why I feel frustrated by arguments based only on "citta arise and ceease extremely rapidly" and/or "there is no self". I don't necessarily disagree with the arguments, but I suspect that there is a lot more to it. So, continuing the laser example, even though the beam is constructed from discrete photons (the "ultimate" level :)), one can measure correlations of the fields over time that turn out to be the same as if it were simply a classical wave. But it's rather complex to understand this at the photon level, so you'd avoid doing the calculation that way in most cases... In the case of the arising of cittas and cetasikas the situation is obviously similarly complex. At an ultimate level the cittas are rising and falling very rapidly, but certain cetasikas obviously don't just arise in a single citta. Anger can arise, and be a condition for the arising of further anger, in countless cittas, and this can sometimes last for a very long time... I'm obviously not saying anything new here, just what's in the Abhidhamma. I'm just trying to explain why I don't think that invoking "rapidity of citta" a helpful way of dismissing attempts to delve into complex effects that happen over time. Metta Mike #103147 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 6:05 am Subject: Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill kenhowardau Hi Alex, ------------------ <. . .> > > A: > So, conventionally speaking, a person has no choice but to be a > killer, a rapist, a thief or a saint, all due to past conditions? > > > KH: > What makes you say that? I didn't give an opinion one way or the other > on conventional reality. > > As far as I know, the Dhamma doesn't give an opinion on conventional > reality either. Why would it? A: > Please answer that conventional question. ------------------ KH: You first. What is you answer? ------------------------- A: > As to ultimate question: Is it possible for a citta to chose to do kusala rather than akusala, or at least to refrain from akusala - at least in some cases? Or if the conditions are right, there is no choice but to be a serial killer, a thief or a rapist (conventionally speaking)? -------------------------- As I said before, kusala citta can refrain from evil, akusala citta cannot. -------------------------------------- <. . .> A: > But are the conditions deterministic and unable/powerless to change like a rock rolling down the hill is powerless to chose rolling down the hill or to stop? --------------------------------------- KH: There are only conditioned dhammas. Does that answer your question? If not, please give your answers: If there is a choice, is it conditioned? Or is choice somehow free of conditions? Is it an unconditioned dhamma? Ken H #103148 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 7:51 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 11. nilovg Dear friends, Can one speak of evolution in the succession of different lives, a development from animal life to the human life and then to life in heavenly planes? There is no specific order in the kinds of rebirths, there is not necessarily development from life in lower planes to higher planes. In reality rebirth depends on the kamma which produces it. Kusala kamma may produce rebirth in a heavenly plane and after that it may be the right time for akusala kamma to produce rebirth in a hell plane. Only the person who has attained enlightenment has no more conditions for an unhappy rebirth. When one has reached the state of perfection all defilements have been eradicated and thus there are no more conditions for any kind of rebirth. This means the end of dukkha. The Buddha, in the night he attained enlightenment, had penetrated the conditions for being in the cycle of birth and death and also the conditions for being freed from this cycle. Kamma which produces rebirth is part of a whole chain of conditions for the phenomena which constitute the cycle of birth and death. It is like a vicious circle of interdependently arising phenomena, forming a chain of twelve links, the first of which is ignorance and the last one death. This is called “Dependent Origination”. The “Dependent Origination” is an essential part of the Buddha’s teachings. Ignorance is mentioned as the first cause of the interdependently arising phenomena of the cycle. So long as ignorance has not been eradicated there are still conditions for the performing of kamma which produces rebirth. At rebirth there is the arising of mental phenomena and physical phenomena. There is the experience of objects through the senses and the mind-door. On account of the objects which are experienced different feelings arise and feeling in its turn conditions craving. Due to craving there is clinging which conditions the performing of kamma and this produces again rebirth. So long as there is birth there is old age and death, and thus there is no end to dukkha. This is the teaching on the “Dependent Origination” which shows the conditions stemming from the past life for phenomena in the present life, and conditions of the present life for phenomena in the future. ******* Nina. #103149 From: Herman Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 10:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is everything predetermined? egberdina Hello RobertK, 2009/12/6 rjkjp1 > > > > > > > Alex: Can there be impersonal citta that can choose among "available" > alternatives. > > > > Yes, I think this is the key point. Can we put aside the repeated claims > that anatta proves anything about choice or control (which we are never > going to agree on since my conditioning is different to the AS followers :)) > and discuss what choice would actually mean in terms of citta? I.e. does a > citta have more choice than a falling rock? > > > > Metta > > Mike > Dear Mike > Consider how long one a citta lasts, does it have time to choose. > I don't think you understand the implications of what you are suggesting. How long does consideration last? And just what is considering who? Nevertheless, a genuine thanks for your email, it lasted about 3 minutes :-) Cheers Herman #103150 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 10:21 am Subject: [dsg] Latent Tendencies, anusaya. no 12 nilovg Dear friends, As to the statement, “The latent tendency of sense desire must adhere to the pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling which are akusala dhammas, because of their being the object”, this means that pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling are the objects to which the sense desire that arises is attached. Apart from the pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling, all accompanying dhammas (the khandhas of perception, saññå, of the formations and of consciousness, viññåùa) that arise together with pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling, can evenso be the object sense desire is attached to. However, the Buddha refers especially to feeling because feeling is the “chief” with regard to experiencing the flavour of an object. Moreover, the two feelings that are mentioned, pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling, are dhammas that are in particular desirable and enjoyable for sense desire. Therefore the Buddha said: “The latent tendency of sense desire adheres to these two feelings.” Further on we read in the Commentary: “Surely, the latent tendency of sense desire that adheres to an object, does not merely adhere to these two feelings and to the dhammas that are conascent with them. It also adheres to visible object that is desirable, and so on. The Buddha taught in the ‘Book of Analysis’ (Ch 16, Analysis of Knowledge, 816, And what is the latent tendency of beings?): ‘That which in the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing (piyarúpaÿ, såtarúpaÿ), the latent tendency of sense desire of beings adheres to this...' " The expression, “The latent tendency of sense desire adheres also to visible object etc. that is desirable”, means, that the sense desire that arises (because there is still the latent tendency) does not only have as object pleasant feeling, indifferent feeling and the dhammas that accompany those. It means that it can also have as object a lovely thing (piya rúpa) and a pleasant thing (såta rúpa). Thus, desirable nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas can be the objects of sense desire. When sense desire arises and has as object desirable nåmas and rúpas, the accumulation of the latent tendency of sense desire continues. Therefore, the Buddha said that there is the latent tendency of sense desire for a lovely thing (piya rúpa) and pleasant thing (såta rúpa).” ************************** Pali: nanu cesa aaramma.navasena anusayamaano na kevala.m imaasu dviisu vedanaasu ceva vedanaasampayuttadhammesu ca anuseti, i.t.thesu pana ruupaadiisupi anusetiyeva. vuttampi ceta.m vibha"ngappakara.ne (vibha0 816) ``ya.m loke piyaruupa.m saataruupa.m, ettha sattaana.m kaamaraagaanusayo anusetii''ti ---------- Nina. #103151 From: Herman Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 10:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/12/7 kenhowardau > > > Akusala citta has akusala effort. Kusala citta has kusala effort. > > Yes, I understand this. It is all part of the retrospective attitude. It is when reviewing the past we say this was akusala, that was kusala. We judge what was a past cause and a past effect. And we can all afford the luxury of being total determinist about that, because, after all, the past is absolute, unchangable. But when looking to the future, do you know which citta will be akusala or kusala? And wouldn't any understanding of that prospective, forward-looking attitude have some bearing on what your determined past is going to end up looking like? Cheers Herman #103152 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] brief summary of insight knowledges in Patis nilovg Dear Alex and Lukas, Op 26-nov-2009, om 21:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > (10) Change-of-lineage (maturity) knowledge (gotrabhuu~na.na). In > achieving composure, one has reached the point from which there is > no retreat; and immediately upon that follows change-of-lineage > knowledge, which abandons and emerges from the formations > externally, and whereby the first partial glimpse of Nibbana is > obtained. ---------- N: quote Kh Sujin: < The twelfth stage of vipassanå ~naa.na is adaptation knowledge, anuloma ~naa.na. Adaptation knowledge, or conformity knowledge, is the vipassanå ~naa.na which arises in the process during which enlightenment is attained, the magga-víthi. This kind of knowledge conforms to the clear understanding of the noble Truths. Adaptation knowledge are the three moments of mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå arising in the magga-víthi. They are: parikamma or preparatory consciousness, upacåra or access and anuloma or adaptation. These three cittas have as their object one of the three general characteristics . They realize the conditioned dhamma appearing at that moment either as impermanent, or as dukkha or as anattå. Adaptation knowledge adapts or conforms to detachment from the objects which are conditioned dhammas. For the person who is keen (tikkha puggala), that is, who has keen paññå and can realize the noble Truths rapidly, there are two moments of adaptation knowledge, because he does not need preparatory consciousness, parikamma. The thirteenth stage of vipassanå ~naa.na is change-of-lineage knowledge, gotrabhú ~naa.na. This knowledge succeeds the anuloma ~naa.na which includes three moments of citta for the person who realizes the noble Truths more slowly than a person with keen paññå, and two moments for a person with keen paññå. Change-of-lineage knowledge is mahå-kusala citta ~naa.na-sampayutta and this citta has nibbåna as object. It is repetition-condition, asevana-paccaya for the succeeding magga-citta of the stage of the sotåpanna which is lokuttara kusala citta. The magga-citta has nibbåna as object and eradicates defilements.> (to be continued) NIna. #103153 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vsm & Vim sarahprocter... Dear Alex, --- On Sat, 5/12/09, truth_aerator wrote: >>S: What was it you said, Alex, about the Visuddhimagga being based on the Vimuttimagga? Whatever it was, it was very controversial round here:-)) ... >A:VsM is very similar to Vim. In fact it is so similiar that it is not unlikely that it formed a basis for VsM. VsM just has more stories and analytical discussions. >There are some difference of opinion between two works. ... S: I'm sure Upatissa and Buddhaghosa had access to many of the same ancient Sinhalese commentaries. As you say, much that is very close, but some fundamental differences too. The Vimuttimagga was never accepted as a Theravada text by the Mahanama elders, I'm sure. See the "relevant events" in Nanamoli's intro to the Vism. and the later para on the Vimuttimagga. On the temperaments you've been discussing, see Vism III, 80 and n.19 as an example of difference. For my part, I prefer to just stick to the Vism because I have confidence that it is all truly Buddhavacana, but it's an individual thing. Definitely, we can't say the Vism is based on the Vimuttimagga, however. Metta Sarah ======== #103154 From: "philofillet" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 10:38 am Subject: Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? philofillet Hi all Hope you've all been well. It's been becoming more and more clear (leaving less and less need to debate it, thankully) that I fall within the tradition of lay followers of the Buddha who are dull when it comes to insight, but who understand, thankfully, that the Buddha still administered (ministered?) to their needs. My Dhamma purpose (and therefore the purpose of my life) is to avoid harmful behaviour and do meritous deeds in the hopes of a favourable rebirth (thank you in advance, Herman - no need for any comments on that point!) I remember studying A.Sujin's Deeds of Merit here. Can anyone point me to the original source of this teaching? I would be delighted if it were from the Suttanta, but I have a feeling from the looks of it that it is commmentarial. (Which isn't bad.) Any links would be appreciated. Thanks. Metta, Phil #103155 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views ashkenn2k Dear Ken H >------------ -- >You say there is, at times, 'an over doing of anatta that gives an >impression of a pre-determined behaviour.' I would say there is at those >times an under doing of anatta. Anatta means there is no self, only >dhammas, and so the question of free-will/determini sm does not apply. ---------------------------- KO: Yes over-doing of it definitely give this impression. No doubt, conditions are not self, no one could control it. If we do not explain in properly in conventional term, it becomes very determinisitic. Whatever we do, we must go back to the basic, citta thinks. Only through thinking over an object, citta will slant towards aksuala or kusala. Without it, we are like a machine. Citta is very fast. But that does not mean it does not think. At our conventional level of experience, it is an accumulation of such processes even before we could even see the word we are typing and understanding what we are typing. But we all learn from this conventional level of understanding of paramatha unless one is on the way of noble path. Also we must not forget the cetasikas that arise with the object of the citta. They also play their role. Seeing reality at the present moment is a chanda made by citta and sati with panna that understand the danger of suffering. However it cannot do it alone, there are a few other factors like adhimokkha is "convinced" of the object (with the arising of panna) that the citta see as a danger and viriya arouse energy to do learn more dhamma to "escape" from the danger. Cheers Ken O #103156 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 1:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? sarahprocter... Hi Phil, From Nyantiloka's dictionary: >pu~n~na-kiriya-vatthu 'bases of meritorious action'. In the suttas, 3 are mentioned consisting of giving (liberality; daana-maya-p.), of morality (siila-maya-p.) and of mental development (meditation; bhaavanaa-maya-p.). See D.33; It.60; expl. in A.VIII.36. Commentaries have a list of ten (dasa p.) which is very popular in Buddhist countries: (1)-(3) as above, (4) reverence (apaciti), (5) service (veyyaavacca), (6) transference of merit (pattaanuppadÄ?na), (7) rejoicing in others' merit (abbhaanumodana), (8) expounding the Doctrine (desanaa), (9) listening to the Doctrine (savana), (10) straightening one's right views (rectification of views; ditthujukamma). - Expl. in Atthasaalini Tr. 209ff.< **** S: There's a wealth of detail and quotes under "Merit...." in U.P. From Bodhi's Anthology of AN, 8s, 164. From "Ways of Meritorious Action" "....Another person has practised to a high degree the making of merit by giving as well as virtue; but the making of merit by meditation (bhaavanaa) he has not undertaken. Such a one, with the breakup of the body, after death, will be reborn among humans in a favourable condition. "Or he will be reborn in the company of the devas of the Four Great Kings. And there, the Four Great Kings, who had practised to a very high degree the making of merit by giving and by virtue, surpass the devas of their realm in ten respects: in divine lifespan, divine beauty, divine happiness, divine fame, divine power, divine sights, sounds, smells, tastes and touches. "Or he will be reborn in the company of the Taavatimsa devas......" S: And so on.... Keep sharing and earning merit:-) Metta Sarah ========= #103157 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs connivance to kilesas upasaka_howard Hi, Mike (and Alex) - In a message dated 12/6/2009 11:46:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mikenz66@... writes: Yes, the conditionality is clearly very complex, which is why I feel frustrated by arguments based only on "citta arise and ceease extremely rapidly" and/or "there is no self". I don't necessarily disagree with the arguments, but I suspect that there is a lot more to it. ============================== "Citta arises and ceases extremely rapidly" arguments hold no water for me at all. While it may be (rapid) citta that is being observed, it is also (rapid) citta that is observing! There is no observer "standing back watching" as frames fly by as in a movie theatre! The "watching" is done within the stream of consciousness itself! The difficulty in observing conditionality is a matter of mindfulness, clarity of mind, and attention, not speed. With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103158 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 1:35 pm Subject: Re: Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? abhidhammika Dear Phil, Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Freewaru, Alex, Howard, Sarah, Jon How are you? Phil, what you are looking for is known as Dasakammapathaani (Ten Coures of Action). One set of these Ten Courses of Action is demeritorius while the other set is meritorious. There are more than one Suttas describing Dasakammapathaani. For example, please see Section 211, Pa.thamanirayasaggasuttam, Karajakaayavaggo, Dasakanipaatapaali (Ten Groups), Anguttaranikaayo. Below is a sample Pali Text of this Suttam. ___________________________________ (21) 1. KARAJAKAAYAVAGO 1. PA.THAMANIRAYASAGGASUTTAM 211. "Dasahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannaagato yathaabhatam nikkhitto evam niraye. katamehi dasahi? idha, bhikkhave, ekacco paa.naatipaatii hoti luddo lohitapaa.ni hatapahate nivi.t.tho adayaapanno sabbapaa.nabhuutesu. "Adinnaadaayii hoti. Yam tam parassa paravittuupakara.nam gaamagatam vaa araññagatam vaa, tam adinnam theyyasaªkhaatam aadaataa hoti. "Kaamesu micchaacaarii hoti. Yaa taa maaturakkhitaa piturakkhitaa maataapiturakkhitaa bhaaturakkhitaa bhaginirakkhitaa ñaatirakkhitaa gottara kkhitaa dhammarakkhitaa sasaamikaa saparida.n.daa antamaso maalaagu.laparikkhittaapi, tathaaruupaasu caarittam aapajjitaa hoti. "Musaavaadii hoti. Sabhaggato vaa parisaggato vaa ñaatimajjhagato vaa puugamajjhagato vaa raajakulamajjhagato vaa abhiniito sakkhipu.t.tho– `ehambho purisa, yam jaanaasi tam vadehii'ti, so ajaanam vaa aaha `jaanaamii'ti, jaanam vaa aaha `na jaanaamii'ti, apassam vaa aaha `passaamii'ti, passam vaa aaha `na passaamii'ti. Iti attahetu vaa parahetu vaa aamisakiñcikkhahetu vaa sampajaanamusaa bhaasitaa hoti. "Pisu.navaaco hoti– ito sutvaa amutra akkhaataa imesam bhedaaya, amutra vaa sutvaa imesam akkhaataa amuusam bhedaaya. Iti samaggaanam vaa bhettaa bhinnaanam vaa anuppadaataa vaggaaraamo vaggarato vagganandii, vaggakara.nim vaacam bhaasitaa hoti. "Pharusavaaco hoti– yaa saa vaacaa a.n.dakaa kakkasaa paraka.tukaa paraabhisajjanii kodhasaamantaa asamaadhisamvattanikaa, tathaaruupim vaacam bhaasitaa hoti. "Samphappalaapii hoti akaalavaadii abhuutavaadii anatthavaadii adhammavaadii avinayavaadii, anidhaanavatim vaacam bhaasitaa hoti akaalena anapadesam apariyantavatim anatthasamhitam. "Abhijjhaalu hoti. Yam tam parassa paravittuupakara.nam tam abhijjhaataa hoti– `aho vata yam parassa tam mama assaa'ti. "Byaapannacitto hoti padu.t.thamanasankappo– `ime sattaa haññantu vaa bajjhantu vaa ucchijjantu vaa vinassantu vaa maa vaa ahesun'ti. "Micchaadi.t.thiko hoti vipariitadassano– `natthi dinnam, natthi yi.t.tham, natthi hutam, natthi sukatadukka.taanam kammaanam phalam vipaako, natthi ayam loko, natthi paro loko, natthi maataa, natthi pitaa, natthi sattaa opapaatikaa, natthi loke sama.nabraahma.naa sammaggataa sammaapa.tipannaa ye imañca lokam parañca lokam sayam abhiññaa sacchikatvaa pavedentii'ti. Imehi kho, bhikkhave, dasahi dhammehi samannaagato yathaabhatam nikkhitto evam niraye. _______________________________________ The above Pali passage describes Ten Courses of Action that are demeritorious. The other half of the Suttam describes Ten Courses of Action that are meritorious. By the way, this Suttam would not be very agreeable and palatable to K Sujin and KS Folks because it carries very gave warning to them who constantly ingore the roles and advantages of formal practices of morality (Siilaani). Hope you found a good third party translation of thei great Suttam! Best wishes, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philofillet" wrote: Hi all Hope you've all been well. It's been becoming more and more clear (leaving less and less need to debate it, thankully) that I fall within the tradition of lay followers of the Buddha who are dull when it comes to insight, but who understand, thankfully, that the Buddha still administered (ministered?) to their needs. My Dhamma purpose (and therefore the purpose of my life) is to avoid harmful behaviour and do meritous deeds in the hopes of a favourable rebirth (thank you in advance, Herman - no need for any comments on that point!) I remember studying A.Sujin's Deeds of Merit here. Can anyone point me to the original source of this teaching? I would be delighted if it were from the Suttanta, but I have a feeling from the looks of it that it is commmentarial. (Which isn't bad.) Any links would be appreciated. Thanks. Metta, Phil #103159 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "dhamma rolling on" vs connivance to kilesas ashkenn2k Dear Alex >Thank you for your interesting post. I think that conditionality is a bit more complex than linear mechanistic view. Conditions are rarely black and white (especially in a triple rooted being in Human or higher realms) and there may be conditions for 2 or more possible actions possible. Often even though citta has behaved in this way, it could have behaved in another way. > KO: If it is conditioned by akusala, a that moment, it will behave in akusala way and not behave in another way. We could only behave another way only when kusala arise after the aksuala behaviour. Akusala and kusala are exclusive. It cannot bound in one citta . >Connivancy to kilesas should not be done. Considering the strength of kilesas (which often out forces the good qualities) certain phrases "nothing can be done... No use trying... etc" when taken too far may simply encourage kilesas to sit at the thrown. >Buddha didn't quite use these sort of teachings "no use trying. You can't change anything..." in the suttas. Maybe all the quotes of superhuman effort was to set appropriate types of conditions, even if there is just a 100% deterministic process. >Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will...cruelty. .. Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to destroy these things do not arise for him when he destroys them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying. >http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.002. than.html KO: I dont think we claim nothing can be done now. It is done by understanding the citta at the present moment. That is the way. There is no special way to learn satipattana, it is just simply understanding the present reality that arise. Because of not seeing at the present moment, we do not guard our sense door, by not guarding it or properly attend to it, akusala arise. Or not reflecting appropriatey as what you quote. When one reflect on impermanance or the danger of akusala, could akusala be present at that moment. That is not possible. To me this is the most straight forward method but the most difficult to have faith in. Energy to develop kusala could only arose due to understanding the danger of akusala. It is not possible without understanding the danger of sense pleasure one would develop panna. But this sense of urgency is a matter of conditions and not because of a self that will. Cheers Ken O #103160 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 1:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? ashkenn2k Dear Suan Two simple quesions: can formal practise of sila arise without citta thinking of kusala? Can such actions be done without citta? <> Cheers Ken O #103161 From: "philofillet" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 1:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? philofillet Thanks, Sarah. A very helpful summary. And I'll check the U.Ps, at the risk of finding posts telling me that only people with awareness of present realities (beyond me) can earn merit! For others who are interested, a friend at Dhammawheel posted a link to this. http://beyondthenet.net/thedway/making_merit.htm And of course there is the very good book by A. Sujin, translated by Nina, Deeds of Merit. http://www.dhammastudy.com/merits.html If you look back to mid 2004 you can find a long series of posts from this book with scintilating comments by yours truly in a somewhat different incarnation! ;) OK, thanks again Sarah. Metta, Phil #103162 From: "philofillet" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 1:48 pm Subject: Re: Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? philofillet Dear Suan > Dear Phil, Uncle U Han Tun, Nina, Freewaru, Alex, Howard, Sarah, Jon > > How are you? > > Phil, what you are looking for is known as Dasakammapathaani (Ten Coures of Action). One set of these Ten Courses of Action is demeritorius while the other set is meritorious. Thank you. My question was unclear. Actually it wasn't the ten akusala kamma patha I was thinking of, it is another group of ten involving such things as sharing merit, rejoicing in others kusala, teaching Dhamma. A post including some links that clarify what I was talking about will soon be appearing on the list, perhaps by the time I post this. But I was wondering yesterday why it would be necessary to think of anything more than the kamma patha, why isn't that enough? Perhaps because the ten deeds of merit that I am thinking of are even more mundane, suitable for lay followers. If I understand correctly, these deeds of merit were taught especially for lay followers while the kamma patha would have no such limitation, of course, applying to all cittas under any circumstances... Thank you Suan. Someday I will ask you questions, as I promised. But for now I am still enjoying time away from the computer. Metta, Phil #103163 From: "philofillet" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 2:11 pm Subject: A nice quotation on the beautiful clarity of suttas.... philofillet Hi again I wrote: > And of course there is the very good book by A. Sujin, translated by Nina, Deeds of Merit. > > http://www.dhammastudy.com/merits.html As I was scanning through the book, I found the following quote from A.S: "S. : If one studies the suttas one will be deeply impressed by the beauty of the teaching of the Dhamma which is perfect as to the meaning and the words which explain the meaning, and also with regard to the similes which are very clear. The teaching of the Dhamma which is impressive and clear is the condition for those who study it for having confidence and being delighted with the Dhamma." Ph: Exactly! The Buddha was the greatest of teachers. I'm sure that many commentaries elucidate(?) complex points in the difficult suttas, but the notion that we are not able to understand all suttas has always seemed peculiar to me and somewhat disrespectful to our great teacher. And apparently A. Sujin also felt the same way when she said the above! It might be that it is her followers who have come up with the "we cannot understand suttas without the commentary" more than their teacher herself, I don't know.... Metta, Phil #103164 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sasa"nkhaarika or asa"nkhaarika, was: everything predetermined? ashkenn2k Dear Alex A Survery of Paramattha Dhamma, pg 197 <> I dont mean to preach but I suggest you read this Survery of Paramatha Dhamma as it has an extensive explanation of cittas written by A Sujin. Then proceed to read Cetasikas and Rupas written by Nina before you embark on more difficult books like Ptsm. It may not be your cup of tea in Buddha dhamma but it has its benefit in making difficult passage on Abhidhamma an easier read. I always go back to these books because it gives clear explanation as at times those passages in Abhidhamma could be quite mind blogging especially if it is written in earlier English language which I could not understand very well especially the Debates Commentary. Cheers Ken O #103165 From: "connie" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 3:05 pm Subject: Without the Walls (Cy 32-33) nichiconn dear pt and all, [Stanza 6 second half & stanza 7] 32. Here is a comment on the meaning. For, Great King, there (tattha) in the Ghost Realm there is never (na hi atthi) any kind of ploughing (kasii), depending on which those ghosts might obtain excellence. Nor any cattle-herding found (gorakkh'ettha na vijjati): not only is there no ploughing (farming), but not cattle-herding exists there in the Ghost Realm either, depending on which they might obtain excellence. Nor merchandising just the same (vaanijjaa taadisii natthi): also there is no merchandizing such as could be a cause for their obtaining excellence. Nor bartering for coin of gold (natthi hira~n~nena kayakkaya"m): there is no buying and selling by means of gold coinage there either such that it could be a cause for their obtaining excellence. The ghosts of the departed kin live there on giving given here (ito dinnena yaapenti petaa kaalagataa tahi"m): only that there they do live on, do make their selfhood continue, by means of what is given from here by relatives or friends and companions. Ghosts (petaa): creatures that have appeared in the Ghost Realm. Departed (kaalagataa): gone (gata) owing to the time (kaala) of their own death; or else the reading is kaalakataa, in which case the meaning is: they have done (kata) their time (kaala), done their dying. There (tahi"m): in that Ghost Realm. 33. So [the Blessed One] said [Na hi tattha kasii atthi, gorakkh'ettha na vijjato, Vaanijjaa taadisii, natthi hira~n~nena kayakkaya"m;] Ito dinnena yaapenti petaa kaalagataa tahi"m. ['For there is never ploughing there, 'Nor any cattle-herding found, 'Nor merchandizing just the same, 'Nor bartering for coin of gold:] 'The ghosts of the departed kin 'Live there on giving given here.' And when he had said this, he now uttered the pari of stanzas, namely; 'As water showered on the hill', explaining that meaning with a simile. to be continued. peace, connie #103166 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 5:32 pm Subject: Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill truth_aerator Hello KenH, Mike, All, > "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > ------------------ > <. . .> > A: > So, conventionally speaking, a person has no choice but to >be >a killer, a rapist, a thief or a saint, all due to past conditions? > > > > > > KH: > What makes you say that? I didn't give an opinion one way >or the other on conventional reality. > > >As far as I know, the Dhamma doesn't give an opinion on conventional > > reality either. Why would it? > > A: > Please answer that conventional question. > > ------------------ > > KH: You first. What is you answer? > > ------------------------- > >A: > As to ultimate question: Is it possible for a citta to chose >to do kusala rather than akusala, or at least to refrain from >akusala - at least in some cases? Or if the conditions are right, >there is no >choice but to be a serial killer, a thief or a rapist >(conventionally speaking)? > -------------------------- >KH: As I said before, kusala citta can refrain from evil, akusala >citta cannot. There are only conditioned dhammas. Does that answer >your question? If not, please give your answers: Can citta that has certain amount of wisdom, chose not to indulge in akusala or at least resist it? >KenH: If there is a choice, is it conditioned? Choice is conditioned and limited by the available options to chose from. I cannot chose to fly like a bird because I do not have wings. But can the mind choose to take that object with right or left hand (if both arms are available)? When an unwholesome thought arises in a learned person, can a person chose to a) Indulge further in it or b) refrain from adding more unwholesome reactions toward it. While it is true that we cannot change what just has occured (bhuta). Can the mind chose to refrain and resist from unwholesome reactions towards the thought or the object that just have arisen? With metta, Alex #103167 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 5:41 pm Subject: speed of citta truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Mike (and Alex) - > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 11:46:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > mikenz66@... writes: > > Yes, the conditionality is clearly very complex, which is why I feel > frustrated by arguments based only on "citta arise and ceease extremely rapidly" > and/or "there is no self". I don't necessarily disagree with the > arguments, but I suspect that there is a lot more to it. > ============================== > "Citta arises and ceases extremely rapidly" arguments hold no water > for me at all. While it may be (rapid) citta that is being observed, it is > also (rapid) citta that is observing! There is no observer "standing back > watching" as frames fly by as in a movie theatre! The "watching" is done > within the stream of consciousness itself! The difficulty in observing > conditionality is a matter of mindfulness, clarity of mind, and attention, not speed. > > With metta, > Howard Hello Howard, all, When it comes to measuring speed, it is always relative to something. 100km/h may be fast compared to walking speed, and be at snail pace in comparison with a jet plane. Citta can be fast compared to rupa (17:1). But in comparison with else what can citta be ultra quick? What measures citta as being fast or slow? Isn't measuring itself a conventional activity done by the citta? With metta, Alex #103168 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 6:02 pm Subject: "dhamma rolling on" truth_aerator Hello Mike, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > Yes, the conditionality is clearly very complex, which is why I >feel frustrated by arguments based only on "citta arise and ceease >extremely rapidly" and/or "there is no self". I don't necessarily >disagree with the arguments, but I suspect that there is a lot more >to it. I agree with you. While the choices are limited, there are choices to chose from. While citta rise and fall very quickly, this shouldn't imply total difference. Remember the "not the same and not different" comment as was said on the issue of Rebirth in Milindapanha? Similar could be here. Impersonal process chooses. Post factum one may be able to justify why this rather than that choice was taken. Past is also set in stone and unchangeble. But what about right now? Is citta a total slave to conditions? Is there another way to look at it? I heard somewhere that light behaves like a particle and a wave, depending on how one looks at it. Maybe something similar is with a citta. Post factum, when it has already happened, it is possible to analyze exactly why citta did this or that. But often the citta *could have* willed differently - and maybe it is possible to find what causes would have brought it to act in that different way. In stock trading it may be possible to explain exactly why the price went this or that way. But when one tries to actually trade in real time (with future unknown), the price doesn't go the way one calculated it to go... Maybe it is possible to find different conditions for different possible actions that a citta *could have* done. After all, we have a very big load of past conditionings... With metta, Alex #103169 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] speed of citta upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/7/2009 12:43:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, When it comes to measuring speed, it is always relative to something. 100km/h may be fast compared to walking speed, and be at snail pace in comparison with a jet plane. Citta can be fast compared to rupa (17:1). But in comparison with else what can citta be ultra quick? What measures citta as being fast or slow? Isn't measuring itself a conventional activity done by the citta? ------------------------------------------------- Yes, but I think there is some objectivity to it. Citta objectively changes more quickly than rupa, I believe. ------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #103170 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ksheri3 Good Morning Icarofranca, Niropa, no problem. Guru Rimpoche, ah, a difference. How does Guru Rimpoche differ from Niropa? Is the difference an explanation of the negativity towards tantra? I mean that Niropa can easily be seen as a diffinative explanation of a methodology but is it possible to see that Guru Rimpoche is DEVIANT from the already accepted norm from Niropa? WHY? I am and will be focusing on this INSANITY called a difference between these two monumental concepts called "you" and "I". I'm absorbed by the clarity which the Abhidharma and the many different translations of Eastern philosophy have for these basic concepts but I have not been able to actually verbalize the reality of the two distictions. <....> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > > > Hi Colette. > > Respectfully butting in... <...> #103171 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 5:02 pm Subject: YOU COGNIZE VIRTUE TO EQUAL VICE! ksheri3 Hi Howard, I'm not gonna seperate anything since I think that it all flows together nicely here. READ ON: > > > I would lie to Nazis and any other criminals to save innocent > people > > from attack. If you think that is comparable to Nazi actions, so be it. > I do > > not. > > You are missing my point completely. > ---------------------------------------------------- > I'm sorry. > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > Look, the Nazis made a reality out of a lie. Who is to say that the > supposed AMERICAN DREAM is not just as false as the truth that the Nazis > manifested reality out of? <...> > --------------------------------------------------- > I think there is hardly a legitimate comparison. > ---------------------------------------------------- > colette: HARDLY A LEGITIMATE COMPARISON? WHAT? THAT IS TOTALLY EQUAL IN COMPARISON. The Nazis manifested a reality out of their own personal hallucinations and dreams i.e. things that did not exist. I am very willing to enter the realm of defining what is NAMA and what is RUPA in accordance with this hypothoses of what does and what does not exist which you are leading up to here. <...> <....> I am gonna be dealing with the rest of my acknowledgements later today. thank you. toodles, colette <...> #103172 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 5:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) ksheri3 Good Morning Icaro, That makes sense that Mahamudra and Dzogchen came into being at apporximately the same time. It makes sense in that the "bliss" is instaneous and thus the elation that occurs from the bliss is so monumental that the person experiencing the bliss would want would desire, to get it out of their body as fast as possible. It's a tough experience THAT when the bliss is occured that the natural desire is to expound the REALIZATION to others. <...> Thank you for your insight, vipissana, my friend, Icaro. I'll look into your conceptions since they're very applicable and reasonable. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Icaro" wrote: > > > Hi Collete! > > > Hi Icaro, > > > > Very helpful. Now, could you be so kind as to tell me > > > > WHICH CAME FIRST: MAHAMUDRA or DZOGCHEN? > > Both, Mahamudra and Dzogchen, are grounded on very ancient traditions. Even if you consider that Buddhism, at its beginning, <...> #103173 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 10:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 10:11:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Akusala citta has akusala effort. Kusala citta has kusala effort. > ================================== > Wholesome states can arise from unwholesome ones. > > With metta, > Howard Howard, in a way you are right. A wise person may see the drawbacks of unwholesome states and develop one's own wholesome states. A person may do bad deeds, suffer for them, and then make a resolution not to do them and develop even more wholesome states. With metta, Alex #103174 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 10:08 pm Subject: Training in Higher Virtue (Netti & Ptsm) truth_aerator Dear RobertK2, Nina, all, It is interesting that in Ptsm III Anapanasati can be used as training in Higher Virtue (what is recommended for people of Blunt faculties) "In-breaths and out-breaths while acquainted with the whole body [of breaths] are Purification of Virtue in the sense of restraint; they are Purification of Cognizance in the sense of non-distraction(avikkhepa); they are Purification of View in the sense of seeing(dassana). The meaning of restraint therein is training(sikkhaa) in the Higher Virtue(adhisila); the meaning of non-distraction therein is training in the Higher Cognizance(adhicitta); the meaning of seein therein is training in the Higher Understanding(adhipannaa)." In fact Anapanasati can be used for all three type of trainings (Higher Virtue, Higher Mind, Higher Understanding). Anapanasati also fulfills 4 satipatthanas, so it can be used as an insight practice as well. With metta, Alex #103175 From: Herman Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? egberdina Hi Phil, 2009/12/7 philofillet > > > Hi all > > Hope you've all been well. > > It's been becoming more and more clear (leaving less and less need to > debate it, thankully) that I fall within the tradition of lay followers of > the Buddha who are dull when it comes to insight, but who understand, > thankfully, that the Buddha still administered (ministered?) to their needs. > My Dhamma purpose (and therefore the purpose of my life) is to avoid harmful > behaviour and do meritous deeds in the hopes of a favourable rebirth (thank > you in advance, Herman - no need for any comments on that point!) > I find it very curious that you should single me out in this way. Cheers Herman #103176 From: Herman Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs connivance to kilesas egberdina Hi Howard, 2009/12/8 > Hi, Mike (and Alex) - > > In a message dated 12/6/2009 11:46:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > mikenz66@... writes: > > Yes, the conditionality is clearly very complex, which is why I feel > frustrated by arguments based only on "citta arise and ceease extremely > rapidly" > and/or "there is no self". I don't necessarily disagree with the > arguments, but I suspect that there is a lot more to it. > ============================== > "Citta arises and ceases extremely rapidly" arguments hold no water > for me at all. While it may be (rapid) citta that is being observed, it is > also (rapid) citta that is observing! There is no observer "standing back > watching" as frames fly by as in a movie theatre! The "watching" is done > within the stream of consciousness itself! The difficulty in observing > conditionality is a matter of mindfulness, clarity of mind, and attention, > not speed. > > Very well said. Cheers Herman #103177 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 11:42 pm Subject: Re: Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? truth_aerator Hello Phil, all, There is an interesting sutta in AN 9s. It ranks many kinds of merit Order of merit from lower to Higher. 1) Gifts to ordinary people 2) Gifts to Sotapanna 3)Gifts to 100 Sotopannas or 1 Sakadagami. 4) Gifts to 100 Sakadagami or 1 anagami. 5)Gifts to 100 Anagami or 1 Arahant 6) Gifts to 100 Arahants or 1 Solitary Buddha. 7) Gifts to 100 Solitary Buddhas or 1 Fully Awakened Buddha. 8) Gifts for monks headed by the Fully awakened Buddha. 9) Gifts and building monastery for Monks & Fully awakened Buddha 10)Gifts and building monastery for Monks from 4 Directions 11) Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha with happy mind 12) Taking 5 precepts with happy mind. 13) Developing Loving Kindness even for a second, ? 14) Developing perception of impermanence (aniccasanna) even for a fingersnap is very much more beneficial than previous items. Velamasutta - AN 9.? The Brahmin Velama http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-n\ avakanipata/002-sihanadavaggo-e.html Note: The highest (worldly) or 2nd highest merit making activity is to develop Metta. The highest (and it probably is partially supramundane) is to develop perception of anicca sanna. These two when used within a Buddhist path can lead all the way to Awakening. With metta, Alex #103178 From: han tun Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 12:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? hantun1 Dear Phil and Suan, > Phil to Suan: Thank you. My question was unclear. Actually it wasn't the ten akusala kamma patha I was thinking of, it is another group of ten involving such things as sharing merit, rejoicing in others kusala, teaching Dhamma. A post including some links that clarify what I was talking about will soon be appearing on the list, perhaps by the time I post this. But I was wondering yesterday why it would be necessary to think of anything more than the kamma patha, why isn't that enough? Perhaps because the ten deeds of merit that I am thinking of are even more mundane, suitable for lay followers. If I understand correctly, these deeds of merit were taught especially for lay followers while the kamma patha would have no such limitation, of course, applying to all cittas under any circumstances. ------------------- Han: Ten Kusala-kamma-pathas are avoidance of ten akusala-kamma-pathas. It will be like the first (out fo three) teachings of the Buddhas as mentioned in Dhammapada Verse 183. But the Pu~n~na-kiriya Vatthu (Bases of Meritorious Action) are the cultivation of merits, like the second teaching of the Buddhas as mentioned in Dhammapada Verse 183. Just avoidance of the ten akusala-kamma-pathas may be enough for rebirth in heaven (sagga) as mentioned in AN 10.211 quoted by Suan. But it may not be enough for the final liberation. Therefore, the ten Pu~n~na-kiriya Vatthu are necessary. Furthermore, the ten Pu~n~na-kiriya Vatthu represent daana, siila, bhaavanaa. I will print below the extract from the Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr Mehm Tin Mon. -------------------- Pu~n~na-kiriya Vatthu (Bases of Meritorious Action) If one likes to accumulate wholesome kamma in this life, there are ten bases of meritorious actions which produce good effect and which should be done by all means. 1 Daana: giving charity or generosity 2 Siila: morality; observing five precepts, eight precepts, ten precepts, etc. 3 Bhaavanaa: meditation, both tranquility and insight 4 Appacaayana: reverence to elders and holy persons 5 Veyaavacca: service in wholesome deeds 6 Pattidaana: transference of merit 7 Pattaanumodana: rejoicing in others' merit 8 Dhamma-savana: listening to the Doctrine 9 Dhamma-desanaa: expounding the Doctrine 10 Di.t.thijjukamma: straightening one's right view The above ten pu~n~na-kiriya-vatthus can be classified into three groups: 1 Daana group: Daana, Pattidaana, Pattaanumodana 2 Siila group: Siila, Appacaayana, Veyaavacca 3 Bhaavanaa group: Bhaavanaa, Dhamma-savana, Dhammadesanaa, Di.t.thijjukamma. Di.t.thijjukamma may also be included in all the three groups, because one will perform daana, siila and bhaavanaa only if one has the right view about kamma and its effect. The daana group represents alobha (generosity), and opposes lobha (attachment) and macchariya (stinginess). It is compared to the legs. The siila group represents adosa (good-will) and opposes issa (jealousy) and dosa (anger). It is compared to the body. The bhaavanaa group represents amoha (wisdom) and opposes moha (ignorance). It is compared to the head. To have a complete set of legs, body and head, one must perform all the three groups of pu~n~na-kiriya-vatthu. -------------------- Kind regards, Han #103179 From: Herman Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "dhamma rolling on" vs rock rolling down the hill egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/12/8 truth_aerator > Hello KenH, Mike, All, > > >KenH: If there is a choice, is it conditioned? > > Choice is conditioned and limited by the available options to chose from. I > cannot chose to fly like a bird because I do not have wings. > But can the mind choose to take that object with right or left hand (if > both arms are available)? > > I would just want to add that choice, or what we choose, is also conditioned by craving, by what we want or prefer. And negatively, that means choice, or what we choose is also conditioned by aversion, what we do not want. > When an unwholesome thought arises in a learned person, can a person chose > to a) Indulge further in it or b) refrain from adding more unwholesome > reactions toward it. > > While it is true that we cannot change what just has occured (bhuta). > Can the mind chose to refrain and resist from unwholesome reactions towards > the thought or the object that just have arisen? > > If we accept that choosing is conditioned by cravings and aversions, some more questions we can ask are: is it possible to choose to not have cravings and aversions, is that one of the options available to us? I would answer with a resounding no. And in a situation without craving or aversion, is it meaningful to talk of choosing? Again, I would answer with a resounding no. Cheers Herman #103180 From: Herman Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 12:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) egberdina Hi colette, 2009/12/3 colette > Hi Howard, > > > I would lie to Nazis and any other criminals to save innocent people > > from attack. If you think that is comparable to Nazi actions, so be it. > I do > > not. > > You are missing my point completely. > > Look, the Nazis made a reality out of a lie. Who is to say that the > supposed AMERICAN DREAM is not just as false as the truth that the Nazis > manifested reality out of? <...> > > Let's play a little hypothetical game. It is WWII times. You are a Dutch farmer, and you have hidden two American airmen in your attic, after their plane crash landed in your paddock. Some German soldiers knock on your door and say "We are looking for some American airmen. Have you seen them?" You reply: "Yes, they are up in my attic" Are you to be congratulated for telling the truth, and/or should you be condemned for being an accomplice to brutality? Cheers Herman #103181 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 1:15 am Subject: Determinism & Free will? Are they totally incompatible? truth_aerator Hi Herman, KenH, all, > Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/12/8 truth_aerator > > > Hello KenH, Mike, All, > > > > >KenH: If there is a choice, is it conditioned? > > > > Choice is conditioned and limited by the available options to >chose from. I > > cannot chose to fly like a bird because I do not have wings. > > But can the mind choose to take that object with right or left >hand (if > > both arms are available)? > > > > >H: I would just want to add that choice, or what we choose, is also >conditioned by craving, by what we want or prefer. And negatively, >that means choice, or what we choose is also conditioned by >aversion, what we do not want. When a person has acted in a certain way, how do we know that he couldn't have acted in another possible way in the identical situation? While it may be possible to justify why one has acted in such and such a way, it may be simultaneously possible to justify why the person could have acted in another way in the SAME situation (but chose not to). If that situation would have repeated exactly, would John still be forced to act in the way that he did act? Or did he have personal choice that was not pre-determined to act in this or that manner? Can there be non-deterministic exceptions? 100% linear determinism has serious flaws. "Lets Assume: All events have causes, and their causes are all prior events. There is no cycle of events such that an event (possibly indirectly) causes itself. The picture this gives us is that Event An is preceded by A(n-1), which is preceded by A(n-2), and so forth. Under these assumptions, two possibilities seem clear, and both of them question the validity of the original assumptions: (1) There is an event A0 [alex i.e: Big Bang] prior to which there was no other event that could serve as its cause. [alex: and thus the original event or series of events are un-caused] (2) There is no event A0 prior to which there was no other event, which means that we are presented with an infinite series of causally related events, which is itself an event, and yet there is no cause for this infinite series of events. Under this analysis the original assumption [of All events have causes, and their causes are all prior events. There is no cycle of events such that an event (possibly indirectly) causes itself.] must have something wrong with it. It can be fixed by admitting at least one exception, a creation event (either the creation of the original event or events, or the creation of the infinite series of events) that is itself not a caused event in the sense of the word "caused" used in the formulation of the original assumption... A further problem is that an infinite series of events before any particular event would make it impossible for the event to occur. If there are an infinite number of yesterdays, how do you get to today?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism If one exception is possible, maybe more exceptions are. Maybe these exceptions make it possible to have a certain degree of "free" will in a deterministic world. If we eliminate linear time, then how can there be causes and their results? Causes have to come prior or simultaneous to their results, but "prior" and "simultaneous" are temporal measurements requiring time. With metta, Alex #103182 From: Herman Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Determinism & Free will? Are they totally incompatible? egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/12/8 truth_aerator > Hi Herman, KenH, all, > > > Herman wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > 2009/12/8 truth_aerator > > > > > Hello KenH, Mike, All, > > > > > > >KenH: If there is a choice, is it conditioned? > > > > > > Choice is conditioned and limited by the available options to >chose > from. I > > > cannot chose to fly like a bird because I do not have wings. > > > But can the mind choose to take that object with right or left >hand > (if > > > both arms are available)? > > > > > > > >H: I would just want to add that choice, or what we choose, is also > >conditioned by craving, by what we want or prefer. And negatively, >that > means choice, or what we choose is also conditioned by >aversion, what we do > not want. > > > When a person has acted in a certain way, how do we know that he couldn't > have acted in another possible way in the identical situation? While it may > be possible to justify why one has acted in such and such a way, it may be > simultaneously possible to justify why the person could have acted in > another way in the SAME situation (but chose not to). > > If that situation would have repeated exactly, would John still be forced > to act in the way that he did act? Or did he have personal choice that was > not pre-determined to act in this or that manner? > > > Can there be non-deterministic exceptions? > Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of a parallel universe which would allow us to conduct "what-if" scenarios. > > > > 100% linear determinism has serious flaws. > > "Lets Assume: All events have causes, and their causes are all prior > events. There is no cycle of events such that an event (possibly indirectly) > causes itself. > > The picture this gives us is that Event An is preceded by A(n-1), which is > preceded by A(n-2), and so forth. > > Under these assumptions, two possibilities seem clear, and both of them > question the validity of the original assumptions: > > (1) There is an event A0 [alex i.e: Big Bang] prior to which there was no > other event that could serve as its cause. [alex: and thus the original > event or series of events are un-caused] > > (2) There is no event A0 prior to which there was no other event, which > means that we are presented with an infinite series of causally related > events, which is itself an event, and yet there is no cause for this > infinite series of events. > > I don't know why you say that the view that there is no first cause, no beginning, is flawed. But, do you believe that it is available to you to choose to not have cravings or aversions? Cheers Herman #103184 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) kenhowardau Hi Herman, This is fun! :-) ------- H: > Let's play a little hypothetical game. It is WWII times. You are a Dutch farmer, and you have hidden two American airmen in your attic, after their plane crash landed in your paddock. Some German soldiers knock on your door and say "We are looking for some American airmen. Have you seen them?" You reply: "Yes, they are up in my attic" Are you to be congratulated for telling the truth, and/or should you be condemned for being an accomplice to brutality? -------- My answer would be the second one, "condemned for being an accomplice to brutality." By hiding the airmen in the first place we asserted that we were prepared to *deceive* the enemy. That's what hiding is. If, for some reason, we drew the line at *verbally* deceiving the enemy then we should have told the poor fugitives that in the first place. Certainly we should have told them before leading them to our attic (- an extremely unsafe hiding place in the circumstances). Ken H BTW, I don't see this conversation as Dhamma related. According to the Dhamma, deceptive speech is always akusala. It's something we worldlings do on a regular basis. #103185 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 2:02 am Subject: Re: Determinism & Free will? Are they totally incompatible? truth_aerator Hello Herman, KenH, all >, Herman wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > 2009/12/8 truth_aerator > > > Hi Herman, KenH, all, > > > > > Herman wrote: > > > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > > > 2009/12/8 truth_aerator > > > > > > > Hello KenH, Mike, All, > > > > > > > > >KenH: If there is a choice, is it conditioned? > > > > > > > > Choice is conditioned and limited by the available options to >chose > > from. I > > > > cannot chose to fly like a bird because I do not have wings. > > > > But can the mind choose to take that object with right or left >hand > > (if > > > > both arms are available)? > > > > > > > > > > >H: I would just want to add that choice, or what we choose, is also > > >conditioned by craving, by what we want or prefer. And negatively, >that > > means choice, or what we choose is also conditioned by >aversion, what we do > > not want. > > > > > > When a person has acted in a certain way, how do we know that he couldn't > > have acted in another possible way in the identical situation? While it may > > be possible to justify why one has acted in such and such a way, it may be > > simultaneously possible to justify why the person could have acted in > > another way in the SAME situation (but chose not to). > > > > If that situation would have repeated exactly, would John still be forced > > to act in the way that he did act? Or did he have personal choice that was > > not pre-determined to act in this or that manner? > > > > > > Can there be non-deterministic exceptions? > > > > Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of a parallel universe which would > allow us to conduct "what-if" scenarios. This "what if" scenario is very important. If the situation would have repeated in exactly the same way, would the person act in exactly the same way - or would the person be able to act in a *different* way that could have occured with that same set of conditions. > > > > > > > > > > 100% linear determinism has serious flaws. > > > > "Lets Assume: All events have causes, and their causes are all prior > > events. There is no cycle of events such that an event (possibly indirectly) > > causes itself. > > > > The picture this gives us is that Event An is preceded by A(n-1), which is > > preceded by A(n-2), and so forth. > > > > Under these assumptions, two possibilities seem clear, and both of them > > question the validity of the original assumptions: > > > > (1) There is an event A0 [alex i.e: Big Bang] prior to which there was no > > other event that could serve as its cause. [alex: and thus the original > > event or series of events are un-caused] > > > > (2) There is no event A0 prior to which there was no other event, which > > means that we are presented with an infinite series of causally related > > events, which is itself an event, and yet there is no cause for this > > infinite series of events. > > > > >Herman: I don't know why you say that the view that there is no >first cause, no beginning, is flawed. Either the 1) totality of the cause->effect conditions has a beginning. or 2)totality of the cause->effect conditions does not have a beginning. If there was a first point, prior to which no conditions have existed, then this allows for a (or non-determined) event to happen. Maybe some of the non-determined situations (if they can occur) is what gives the ability for a choice to happen. If there was NO first point, and every set of conditions had prior set of conditions for the causes, then we have an infinite temporal regress with no beginning and no end. If there is an infinite amount of yesterdays prior to today, then today would never come. It would be infinitely into the future, looking from an infinite past. And this world with infinite in duration amount of causes & effects is it caused or un-caused? (Back to point 1 or 2). With metta, Alex #103186 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 2:13 am Subject: Re: "dhamma rolling on" & Makkhali Gosala deterministic views truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Ken H > > >------------ -- > >You say there is, at times, 'an over doing of anatta that gives an > >impression of a pre-determined behaviour.' I would say there is at those > >times an under doing of anatta. Anatta means there is no self, only > >dhammas, and so the question of free-will/determini sm does not apply. > > ---------------------------- > > KO: Yes over-doing of it definitely give this impression. No doubt, conditions are not self, no one could control it. If we do not explain in properly in conventional term, it becomes very determinisitic. Whatever we do, we must go back to the basic, citta thinks. Only through thinking over an object, citta will slant towards aksuala or kusala. Without it, we are like a machine. > > Citta is very fast. But that does not mean it does not think. At our conventional level of experience, it is an accumulation of such processes even before we could even see the word we are typing and understanding what we are typing. But we all learn from this conventional level of understanding of paramatha unless one is on the way of noble path. > > Also we must not forget the cetasikas that arise with the object of the citta. They also play their role. Seeing reality at the present moment is a chanda made by citta and sati with panna that understand the danger of suffering. However it cannot do it alone, there are a few other factors like adhimokkha is "convinced" of the object (with the arising of panna) that the citta see as a danger and viriya arouse energy to do learn more dhamma to "escape" from the danger. > > > > > Cheers > Ken O Hello KenO, To re frame my question as simple as possible: If citta would occur in identical conditions as it did before, would it behave in exactly the same way as it did before? Is there room for citta to chose among multiple possible possibilities? There are so many different conditions from the (possibly infinite) past, that citta *could have* acted differently. With metta, Alex #103187 From: Herman Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 3:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Determinism & Free will? Are they totally incompatible? egberdina Hi Alex, 2009/12/8 truth_aerator > Hello Herman, KenH, all > > > > > > > > > Can there be non-deterministic exceptions? > > > > > > > Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of a parallel universe which > would > > allow us to conduct "what-if" scenarios. > > This "what if" scenario is very important. > > If the situation would have repeated in exactly the same way, would the > person act in exactly the same way - or would the person be able to act in a > *different* way that could have occured with that same set of conditions. > Well, I can't prove it, but my working assumption is that same causes => same result. And another working assumption I have is that any system cannot know itself. So, all causes can never be known, and trying to predict the future is therefore doomed. > > Either the > > 1) totality of the world and conditions has a beginning. > or > 2) totality of the world and conditions does not have a beginning. > > > If there was a first point, prior to which no conditions have existed, then > this allows for an unconditioned (or non-determined) event to happen. Maybe > some of the non-determined situations (if they can occur) is what gives the > ability for a choice to happen. > > If there was NO first point, and every set of conditions had prior set of > conditions for the causes, then we have an infinite temporal regress with no > beginning and no end. If there is an infinite amount of yesterdays prior to > today, then today would never come. That sounds a bit like Zeno's paradox applied to time as a pre-existing framework in which events happen. I personally don't buy that the world is that way. > It would be infinitely into the future, looking from an infinite past. And > this world with infinite in duration amount of causes & effects is it > caused or un-caused? (Back to point 1 or 2). > > Unfortunately, we cannot step out of the system we are looking at. What we can be guaranteed of is uncertainty with regards to any futures and any pasts, because no system can have perfect knowledge of itself. At best, we can only be what we already are, and find out what that means as it happens. Cheers Herman #103188 From: Herman Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) egberdina Hi KenH, 2009/12/8 kenhowardau > > Hi Herman, > > This is fun! :-) > > Good :-) > > BTW, I don't see this conversation as Dhamma related. According to the > Dhamma, deceptive speech is always akusala. It's something we worldlings > do on a regular basis. > > Yeah, that's systematised Dhamma for you. But real life is far more complex :-) Even the Buddha stretched things a bit every now and then. These 500 pink-footed celestial nymphs are the most beautiful, the most lovely, the most entrancing." "Rejoice then, Nanda, rejoice, for I will guarantee you the possession of those 500 pink-footed celestial nymphs." Udana III Nanda. Cheers Herman #103189 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 12:55 am Subject: Re: Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? philofillet Hi Alex > 13) Developing Loving Kindness even for a second, ? > 14) Developing perception of impermanence (aniccasanna) even for a fingersnap is very much more beneficial than previous items. > > Velamasutta - AN 9.? The Brahmin Velama > http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/09-n\ avakanipata/002-sihanadavaggo-e.html > > > Note: The highest (worldly) or 2nd highest merit making activity is to develop Metta. > > The highest (and it probably is partially supramundane) is to develop perception of anicca sanna. Ph: Thanks for this. It's a good reminder of something I forgot to post when talking about doing merit and virtue in general. I'm aware that my present approach (the way dhammas are functioning in "me" generally these days) seems to write off the need for satipatthana. Of course I do appreciate that satipatthana and penetrative insight are indispensable for real liberation, and of course there is a hope that by following my current way conditions will be created for an interest in satipatthana to regenerate. But it just ain't there now, I feel having an interest in satipatthana is very pearls before swine and I am the swine. (I don't say that with aversion towards my self, I'm very very happy about the way I'm living in line with Dhamma these days.) Metta, Phil #103190 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? philofillet Hi Herman. > I find it very curious that you should single me out in this way. Sorry about that Herman. I have the impression that you think belief in a rebirth is kind of idiotic and you often make comments on it, so I wanted to save the need to have an exchange on it, that's all. I'm trying to pop in and out of here a.s.a.p! Metta, Phil #103191 From: "philofillet" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 1:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? philofillet Hello Han > Han: > Ten Kusala-kamma-pathas are avoidance of ten akusala-kamma-pathas. > It will be like the first (out fo three) teachings of the Buddhas as mentioned in Dhammapada Verse 183. > > But the Pu~n~na-kiriya Vatthu (Bases of Meritorious Action) are the cultivation of merits, like the second teaching of the Buddhas as mentioned in Dhammapada Verse 183. > > Just avoidance of the ten akusala-kamma-pathas may be enough for rebirth in heaven (sagga) as mentioned in AN 10.211 quoted by Suan. But it may not be enough for the final liberation. Therefore, the ten Pu~n~na-kiriya Vatthu are necessary. > > Furthermore, the ten Pu~n~na-kiriya Vatthu represent daana, siila, bhaavanaa. I will print below the extract from the Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr Mehm Tin Mon. ___________________________________ Ph: Very interesting, thank you. I have printed out your whole post for reflection. It reminds me of what Dag Hammerskjold (sp?) said: "You cannot be saved by a 'thou shalt not' only by a 'thou shalt'" or something like that. BTW, Han, I often think of you because you were directly involved in waking me up to the central importance of Sila for those setting out on the path. Now I am aware that one day there will have to be an interest in Satipatthana, and I have seen many suttas emphasizing the importance of perception of impermanence. I know that in your meditation, you work with perception of impermanence. Could I ask you to post a brief description of how you do your meditiation? (I know you have posted it for me before, my apologies for asking you to repeat.) Since this is not a meditation-supportive environment (and fair enough, it is the way the group was founded, and that should be respected) you might prefer to post it to me off-list otherwise you will have to answer to certain people about your Horrible Wrong View! (haha.) Thanks always, Han. And please say hello to Tep, I want to go that group again someday but I am always seeking to limit internet time. I should at least drop by and say hi, I will. Metta, Phil #103192 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Dec 7, 2009 10:02 pm Subject: The Best Fortune? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is the Best Fortune that can be Gained? Once an illuminating deity asked The Buddha: Which good fortune is the best? Whereto he answered: Not associating with fools, but only with the wise, Honouring only those, who really deserves it, Living in suitable climatic and peaceful regions, Great learning, good discipline and exact speech, Service to mother and father, support of wife and sons, — this is supreme good fortune! Giving, and living the just and generous life supporting relatives, Avoidance from all evil behaviour through complete self-control, Abstinence from intoxicating drinks and drugs causing carelessness, Reverence, devoted faith in the Dhamma, humility, and contentment, Grateful hearing and study of the Dhamma, when one is ready for it, — this is supreme good fortune! Forbearance, patience, and humble yet keen attention, when corrected, Seeing ascetics, recluses, sages and bhikkhus, who explain the Dhamma, Living the Noble life, understanding the Noble Truths, & realising quenching, Being unperturbed, when contacted by the manifold phenomena of the world, Having established these exquisite states, one is unconquered everywhere, One goes in safety everywhere — this is verily the supreme good fortune! Sn 258-269 Have a nice day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri Lanka * http://What-Buddha-Said.net The Best Fortune! #103193 From: han tun Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 5:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your quick response. I like what you said [It reminds me of what Dag Hammerskjold (sp?) said: "You cannot be saved by a 'thou shalt not' only by a 'thou shalt'" or something like that.] As regards reflection on impermanence, I will write to you off-line. Tep is doing well with his excellent presentations at SD, and with the participation of Alex and Howard and others. I write more messages at JTN because there are not many people writing there. Kind regards, Han #103194 From: Herman Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 5:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Textual source of the ten meritous deeds? egberdina Hi Phil, 2009/12/8 philofillet > > Hi Herman. > > > I find it very curious that you should single me out in this way. > > Sorry about that Herman. I have the impression that you think belief in a > rebirth is kind of idiotic and you often make comments on it, Is it possible that you have that impression based on things said on other sites? > so I wanted to save the need to have an exchange on it, that's all. I'm > trying to pop in and out of here a.s.a.p! > See you later :-) Cheers Herman #103195 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 7:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) kenhowardau Hi Herman, ------------ H: > Even the Buddha stretched things a bit every now and then. ------------- No, you are the one doing the stretching. And that's a stretch too far. :-) --------------- H: > "These 500 pink-footed celestial nymphs are the most beautiful, the most lovely, the most entrancing." "Rejoice then, Nanda, rejoice, for I will guarantee you the possession of those 500 pink-footed celestial nymphs." Udana III Nanda. --------------- He meant what he said. Nanda took him at his word, but later lost interest in that particular goal. Ken H #103196 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 9:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] brief summary of insight knowledges in Patis nilovg Dear Alex and Lukas Op 26-nov-2009, om 21:08 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > (10) Change-of-lineage (maturity) knowledge (gotrabhuu~na.na). In > achieving composure, one has reached the point from which there is > no retreat; and immediately upon that follows change-of-lineage > knowledge, which abandons and emerges from the formations > externally, and whereby the first partial glimpse of Nibbana is > obtained. ------- N: continuation of quote Kh Sujin: In the process of cittas all seven javana-cittas usually have the same object, but it is different in the case of the magga-víthi. The cittas which are parikamma, preparatory consciousness, upacåra, access, and anuloma, adaptation, have as object one of the three general characteristics of conditioned realities. The following cittas in that process, the gotrabhú, change-of-lineage, the magga- citta and the moments of phala-citta (two or three moments), have nibbåna as object. Gotrabhú is mahå-kusala citta which has for the first time nibbåna as object. It is as it were “adverting” to the magga-citta of the stage of the sotåpanna which succeeds the gotrabhú and has nibbåna as object. The “Visuddhimagga” (XXII, 11) states that this citta, since it can only realize nibbåna but not dispel defilements, is called “adverting to the Path”. We read: ”For although it is not adverting (åvajjana 34), it occupies the position of adverting; and then, after as it were giving a sign to the path to come into being, it ceases.” The path-consciousness which succeeds it can then, while it experiences nibbana, eradicate defilements. The “Atthasåliní” (II, Book I, Part VII, Ch I, the first Path, 232, 233) and the “Visuddhimagga” (XXII, 8-10)) use a simile for anuloma ~naa.na and gotrabhú ~naa.na. A man went out at night in order to look at the moon. The moon did not appear because it was concealed by clouds. Then a wind blew away the thick clouds, another wind blew away the medium clouds and another wind blew away the fine clouds. Then that man could see the moon free from clouds. Nibbåna is like the moon. The three moments of anuloma ~naa.na, adaptation knowledge, are like the three winds. Gotrabhú ~naa.na is like the man who sees the clear moon in the sky, free from clouds. As the three winds are able only to disperse the clouds covering the moon and do not see the moon, evenso the three moments of anuloma ~naa.na are able only to dispel the murk that conceals the noble Truths but they cannot experience nibbåna. Just as the man can only see the moon but cannot blow away the clouds, so gotrabhú ~naa.na can only experience nibbåna but cannot dispel defilements. .... The exposition of all the different stages of insight, from the first stage up to adaptation knowledge, arising before the attainment of enlightenment, shows that the development of insight is a long process. Very gradually insight can become keener and more accomplished, so that adaptation knowledge can arise and conform to the realization of nibbåna.> (end quote) Nina. #103197 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 9:13 am Subject: [dsg] The Buddha's Path, Ch 5, no 12. nilovg Dear friends, Ignorance is mentioned as the first factor of the Dependent Origination, but no first beginning of the cycle has been revealed. The Path of Purification (XIX, 20) explains: There is no doer of a deed Or one who reaps the deed’s result; Phenomena alone flow on— No other view than this is right. And so, while kamma and result Thus causally maintain their round, As seed and tree succeed in turn, No first beginning can be shown. It is of no use to speculate about the beginning of the cycle. The Buddha taught that when ignorance has been eradicated by wisdom, there aren’t any more conditions for the performing of kamma, and thus no conditions for rebirth. Through wisdom there can be the reversal of the vicious circle made up by the links of the Dependent Origination. This means the end of the cycle, the end of dukkha. The commentary to the first book of the Abhidhamma, the Expositor (I, Part I, Chapter I, 44) explains by way of a simile the conditions leading to the continuation of the cycle and those leading to the end of it : …“leading to accumulation” are those states which go about severally arranging (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall. “Leading to dispersion” are those states which go about destroying that very round, like a man who continually removes the bricks as they are laid by the mason. When understanding has been developed to the degree that enlightenment is attained there will be “dispersion”, the removal of the conditions for being in the cycle. ****** Nina. #103198 From: "Icaro" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 9:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Virtue (Ptsm) icarofranca Hi collete! I fell really happy when I can share some basic notions! > Niropa, no problem. > > Guru Rimpoche, ah, a difference. How does Guru Rimpoche differ from >Niropa? > > Is the difference an explanation of the negativity towards tantra? Hmmm...no. They are both tantric at core. However, they belong to distinct traditions. As I´ve said before, I am not a full expert at Dzogchen as the good Adam West on TV, but Guru Rimpoche´s works (considered the most sacred of all, at Niyngma tradition) appeals to the classic tantric framework of ideas - a reader of classical hindu tantric works will note many common points. At Mahamudra´s we´ve got a more "sophisticated" and elaborated composition, without the full color visions of tantric texts, but with the same ideas - and some of them can be linked directly to Abhidhamma´s Dathukatha and other Theravada texts. But both of them point out to the same final goals - Dhamma beyond all concepts, the Great Perfection of the illuminated Citta, experiences beyond even mindfulness states, a fast and clear cut way to reach Buddha´s mind - as promised in all tantric works. You may ask Adam West on TV of these matters! >I mean that Niropa can easily be seen as a diffinative explanation >of a methodology but is it possible to see that Guru Rimpoche is >DEVIANT from the already accepted norm from Niropa? WHY? Niropa looks like a deviant - his life, ways and teachings are very distinct of the popular idea of a "sacred guru" - while Guru Rimpoche´s teachings and initiations are very similar to the classical "guru lore" of ancient Índia. Only after Gampopa and his Mahamudra dispensation such teachings reached the "Nibbana of Honourability" - with a regular syllabus of teachings, techniques, definite steps and a final graduation on mindfulness. They all were at the Mahamudra´s song in the beginning, but after Gampopa such high masters ought to be respectable persons! > > I am and will be focusing on this INSANITY called a difference >between these two monumental concepts called "you" and "I". I'm >absorbed by the clarity which the Abhidharma and the many different >translations of Eastern philosophy have for these basic concepts but >I have not been able to actually verbalize the reality of the two > >distictions. <....> If you aptly absorbed the clarity of Abhidhamma, Colette, you will be "at home" with Mahamudra - it´s all over there, and I must specially recommend the Dathukattha compendium! Mettaya, Ícaro #103199 From: "connie" Date: Tue Dec 8, 2009 10:20 am Subject: On Virtue (Ptsm) nichiconn to the airman in the attic and the child watching, history repeats itself, they say. Sn 935. 'Fear comes from the [one who has] embraced violence. Look at people quarrelling. I shall describe my agitation, how it was experienced by me. 936. Seeing people floundering, like fish [floundering] in little water, seeing them opposed to one another, fear came upon me. 937. The world was without substance all around; all the quarters were tossed about. Wanting a dwelling-place for myself, I did not see [anywhere] unoccupied. 938. But seeing [people] opposed [to one another] at the end, I was dissatisfied. Then I saw a barb here, hard to see, nestling in the heart. 939. Affected by this barb, one runs in all directions. Having pulled that barb out, one does not run, nor sink. 940. At that point the precepts are recited: Whatever fetters there are in the world, one should not be intent upon them. Having wholly pierced sensual pleasures one should train oneself for one's own quenching. 941. One should be truthful, not impudent, without deception, rid of slander, without anger. A sage should cross over the evil of greed, and avarice. 942. He should overcome lethargy, sloth and torpor. He should not live negligently. A man whose mind is set on quenching should not remain arrogant. 943. He should not pass his time in falsehood. He should not bestow affection upon [outward] form, and he should know [and give up] pride. He should live abstaining from rashness. what wouldn't a liar do? peace, connie BTW, I don't see this conversation as Dhamma related. According to the Dhamma, deceptive speech is always akusala. It's something we worldlings do on a regular basis. -Ken H