#105200 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dosa nilovg Dear Sarah and Lukas, Op 13-feb-2010, om 13:39 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > I feel dosa of some words I had spoken. I could not change it now, > so I feel sad. > ... > S: Yes, natural to feel so. More clinging, more dosa. What's > happened has happened. Feeling sad about it never helps! > > "I", "I", "I" again... > > If there's awareness now, no sadness at all. -------- N: Very good. It is what I said to Lodewijk. He had an unpleasant happening. He had forgotten to put my sister's partner's name in the advertisement for my brother who passed away. She was so cross and it seems she cannot forgive and ever speak to us again. My father used to be the same. Now Lodewijk keeps on feeling sad. I noticed Lukas' question on metta. Lodewijk says; he does not know what metta is and would not like to end a letter with metta. We can add this Q as being of Mr. X, Lodewijk does not want to be mentioned. Do not encourage him to speak, then he will speak less. ------ Nina. #105201 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:39 pm Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Re:thinking, considering. nilovg Dear Lukas, Alex and friends, Op 6-feb-2010, om 19:24 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > When you have a metta you dont need to think oh this person did > this because of that or maybe.... > Metta dont need any thoughts, it's so natural, and it only needs > more understanding. I think this can be also intelctual > understanding. Am I right Nina? There is also panna associated with > consideration? ------- N: Some time ago Alex asked about consideration. We can use this word but it can be understood in different ways. We can think about metta but when it arises because of its own conditions there is no thinking of it beforehand. Then we can see that it is anattaa, beyond control. It cannot arise on command, when we wish for it as you know, Lukas. This morning I heard in a Thai recording about thinking and awareness. Kh Sujin repeated several times that understanding has to be developed. To come back to Lukas' question, yes, there can be a level of pa~n~naa accompanying thinking of realities. This is understanding stemming from listening. It can condition awareness if we do not wish for it. Nina. #105202 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Jon >J: I would say that samatha as developed by those who had already attained a fairly advance level has the appearance of a formal practice, but that in fact the development of samatha is not a matter of following a particular method. KO:? that is why I said, depends on one's interpretation.? That is why it is useless to dicuss whether there is formal or not formal samadhi.? It is more impt the development of understanding.?? The development of samantha is not a matter of following a particular method is correct.? But the development of samadhi there is a particular method.? If we speak strictly by Visud on the forty samadhi subjects. >J: The understanding that is required for the development of samatha is not the understanding that sees there is no "I". It is understanding that understands the difference between kusala consciousness and subtle akusala. >The development of samatha spoken of by the Buddha was, of course, the development of samatha by one who is also developing insight. To my understanding, the Buddha did not encourage the development of samatha (or any kind of kusala) for its own sake, since that does not lead to release from samsara. KO:? Jon this I know there is always a danger of kilesa., we are not talking about subtle kilesa here.?? We are talking whether there is a samadhi in Buddha teaching. If not Buddhaghosa will not go on length to describe it in?Visud.?? ?Yes there is,?but for who,for what purpose, and on what conditions, practitionars should refer seriously on what is written in Visud.?? We cannot?denied its existence but we could?ask ourselves,?for what and for who.?????Still, if there is no panna, there is no?development.???One could practise samadhi on a the kasina object?but without panna, it is only condition rupa planes rebirth.? To me?what for?? samadhi could be aksuala.? Again,?we cannot denied its existence.? With metta Ken O #105203 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:05 pm Subject: Re: Dosa szmicio Dear Sarah, But If I know this was akusala and I hurt someone? Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Lukas, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > I feel dosa of some words I had spoken. I could not change it now, so I feel sad. > ... > S: Yes, natural to feel so. More clinging, more dosa. What's happened has happened. Feeling sad about it never helps! > > "I", "I", "I" again... > > If there's awareness now, no sadness at all. > > Metta > > Sarah > ========= > #105204 From: Lukas Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:12 pm Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Re:thinking, considering. szmicio Dear Nina, Very helpful quote with samma-sankhapa. How does it happens that we are so deep with our ignorance? We think about concepts of people and things and we forget the Truth? Here is a quote from Milindhapanha Miln II.3.13: Characteristic of Applied Thought {Miln 62} "Venerable Nagasena, what is the distinguishing characteristic of applied thought?" "The distinguishing characteristic of applied thought, your majesty, is fixing one's mind on an object." "Give me an analogy." "Just as, your majesty, a carpenter might fix a well-prepared piece of wood into a joint, so too, your majesty, the distinguishing characteristic of applied thought is fixing one's mind on an object." "You are clever, venerable Nagasena." #105205 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dosa ashkenn2k Dear Luka so you have spoken, do you speak of it now?? Its gone, forget it.? It has?past, it is destroyed forever.? And no one could change an action that has been done.?? Dont feel remose because it is also dosa.? Dont immense in dosa, it only builds more dosa and accumulates more of it.??? Dont blame oneself for having dosa or doing actions of dosa because one is conditon by ones accumulations.??? One should look at it as another reality, another dhamma.?? that is the only way, your dosa is slowly eradicated. with metta Ken O > >? >Dear friends, >I feel dosa of some words I had spoken. I could not change it now, so I feel sad. > >Best wishes >Lukas > > #105206 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dosa szmicio Dear Nina and Loedwik, > N: Very good. It is what I said to Lodewijk. He had an unpleasant > happening. He had forgotten to put my sister's partner's name in the > advertisement for my brother who passed away. She was so cross and it > seems she cannot forgive and ever speak to us again. My father used > to be the same. Now Lodewijk keeps on feeling sad. L: Actually this is what happens to me very often, so Loedwik is not alone. This thinking that people are very angry on you and that you made something unforgivable this can be very obsessive thinking. So I could feel this with Loedwik. And also I often tell to myself: "This cannot be change now." Sometimes I says something very fast and I noticed that this could be very offensive to someone else. And I feel embarrased. But this can also help me that this is also not me that speaks, that in reality that is a group of different moments of speach that is speaking, not me. This is what buddha called vacisankhara, and said this is only conditioned by moha. I could feel with Loedwik that he forget to add the name. Those moments are really conditioned. This can learn us that we can have more metta, another time when someone else will forget something important to us, we can have just metta, becuase we know how those moments of remembering/ forgeting are really conditioned. Arise and fall away not because of our will, but because of proper conditions. And also today I told myself. The point of Dhamma is not to be good or bad. The point is to understand kamma and vipaka now. > I noticed Lukas' question on metta. Lodewijk says; he does not know > what metta is and would not like to end a letter with metta. >We can > add this Q as being of Mr. X, Lodewijk does not want to be mentioned. > Do not encourage him to speak, then he will speak less. L: Actually Lodewik is very right here. When panna of samatha arises it can know what are the conditions to have more kusala.It knows that if we speak less or dont speak we give to other people a great gift, we dont encourage them to be involved in some unprofitabe disussions. And then people have really a chance to take a rest from those all ideas. Best wishes Lukas #105207 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dosa szmicio Dear Ken O, Thank you for yours, Sarah and Nina support. It means a lot to me. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Luka > > so you have spoken, do you speak of it now?? Its gone, forget it.? It has?past, it is destroyed forever.? And no one could change an action that has been done.?? Dont feel remose because it is also dosa.? Dont immense in dosa, it only builds more dosa and accumulates more of it.??? Dont blame oneself for having dosa or doing actions of dosa because one is conditon by ones accumulations.??? One should look at it as another reality, another dhamma.?? that is the only way, your dosa is slowly eradicated. > > with metta > Ken O > > > > > >? > >Dear friends, > >I feel dosa of some words I had spoken. I could not change it now, so I feel sad. > > > >Best wishes > >Lukas > > > > > #105208 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The theft ashkenn2k Dear pt and Sarah I happen to see this converations.? Let me say a few words pt: When such things happen to me like theft, false accusations, deceit, etc, in most cases it seems it's more profitable just to let go of the whole issue, as it's not such a big deal after all. But then I'm confronted by what family and friends think about what I should do in such situations, e.g. "you have to get angry, shout, fight for your right, justice, that's the only way to get something done in this world, etc". And then they might get angry and want to take matters into their own hands if I don't, etc. Or sometimes if I don't get upset by what happened to me, some might even suspect I am actually guilty of something, etc. So, it's a tough choice, I'd usually just rather let it all go, but then that often doesn't seem to be socially acceptable response. Not easy being dispassionate :) KO:? Panna is always dispassionate.?? One felt difficult because there is a "self" image to conform to society norms.?? Honestly, in such situations, I usually remain silent when people question me why I am so "dispassionate"? or unfeeling.?? It is our citta that matters, we are alone in our refuge in our developement.? If others cannot understand or think likewise of us,?that are their accumulations.? What can we do? > Verse 61: If a person seeking a companion cannot find one who is better than or equal to him, let him resolutely go on alone; there can be no companionship with a fool." Yeah, this is one of the few sayings that I never really understood. I mean if wiser people don't have contact with less wise people and don't teach them dhamma, then everyone will permanently remain less wise. Though perhaps the meaning of the sutta is more narrow - i.e. it's only advice for those "seeking" a companion, so if a wise person fares alone, that still doesn't preclude him from giving dhamma lessons to those less wise. Likewise, those who do harm to the wise person would still not classify as his "companions" but only as less wise and thus can't be really blamed for their transgressions as these are a simple consequence of lack of wisdom. KO:? I felt verse 61?is a very wise saying.? Under the Perfections, pg33 "Fools do not know the rules of right conduct (vinaya) .? It is beneficial not to see fools" Then Sakka asked:"Kassapa, what else do you wish for?" The ascetic? Akitti said: "Sakka King of the Devas, if you like to give me a boon, I would ask you the following boon: people should see wise men, they should listen to them, seek their company and chearish conversation with them." Sakka asked Akitti: "Kassapa, please explain the reasons why you like to associate with the wise, why you wish to see the wise? The asceti Akitti said, "The wise advise to do what is proper, they are not engaged with improper activities.? It is easy to encourage the wise. They do not retort well-spoken words with anger.? They know well right conduct.? It is good to associate with the wise." Cheers Ken O #105209 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:14 pm Subject: acausality? truth_aerator Hi Jon, Nina, all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (105081) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > Then there is no use in studying, considering, reflecting, visiting Bankgok and so on - since "no amount of exercise can induce wholesomeness to arise". None of considering, studying, visiting KSujin can induce wholesomeness to arise. K Sujanists and Christians have the same result. None of them are any closer to arising of panna, if panna cannot be made to arise. None of them are in more advantageous positions regarding mindfulness (sati) and so on. This is the implication of your statement, and this is why it is not worth pursuing. What is the point in following a teaching if it says that nothing can be done in any way. > > =============== > > J: In a sense, what you say here is correct: none of those things, >as *activities to be done*, can condition wholesomeness to arise. Then why do you, Jon, ever "study, consider, reflect, visit Bankgok to hear KS" and so on? > The conditions for the arising of panna were clearly spelt out by >the Buddha. They are the 4 things beginning with 'association with >the right person' that have been mentioned so often here. None of >these 4 prerequisites are *things to do*. Then what is the point in listing those 4 things if they aren't *things to do*? What about MN2 where the Buddha has talked about things to avoid and things to do? Asavas to be removed: by seeing, (4NT, ideas that lead do dropping of sensuality, becoming, ignorance ) ?by restraining, (the 6 sense-faculties) ?by using, (using the robe, the alms food, lodging, medicinal requisites appropriately) ?by tolerating, (cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words & bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. ) ?by avoiding, (wild elephant, a wild horse, a wild bull, a wild dog, a snake, a stump, a bramble patch, a chasm, a cliff, a cesspool, an open sewer ) ?by destroying, (thought of sensuality, ill will, cruelty, evil, unskillful mental qualities) ?by developing, (mindfulness, analysis of qualities, persistence, rapture, serenity, concentration, equanimity) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html > Any given activity can be done with or without panna, with or >without kusala, Same is with meditation. It can be done with or without panna. With or without wrong views. In kusala or akusala way. so no activity can ever be said to be a prerequisite, unless we clearly understand that when we speak of an activity we are in fact referring to kusala moments of consciousness only, using the activity as a convenient manner of expression to represent those moments of kusala consciousness. > > > =============== > > Jon, I do hope that you reject the possibility of CONTROL, but do not refute the possibility of setting conditions for future arising of Panna when the conditions accumulate. > > =============== > > J: The idea of setting conditions for the future arising of panna >might well be an idea of control in disguise. There is no need to >think in such terms. But some, like Nina and KS, do say them.\ Nina: "Kh Sujin repeated several times that understanding has to be developed." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/105201 > J: The Upanisa Sutta describes dhammas that are proximate cause for other dhammas. We need to understand what is meant by 'proximate cause'. To say that A is a proximate cause for B does not mean that A is the cause of B arising. > > Jon > Are you teach acausality view, Jon? What is proximate cause, then? With metta, Alex #105210 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka moellerdieter Dear Nina (Jon ... ), you wrote: ('D: in training one is on the way to perfection , needs to work with > the 'right' understanding what has been reached so far. > I wonder whether the translation of samma ditthi and samma - > sankappa in terms of right understanding to right view > and right thought/thinking to right intention may not highlight the > development (?) ------- N: Right view is O.K. Right intention instead of right thinking may be confusing. why change the Pali? D: it is about translation .. samma sankappa ..take for example Ny. : right thought , TB : right resolve, PTS : right aspiration all treating the point of wholesome thinking : free from sensuous desire or renunciation (kama vitakka), free from ill will , but the third aspect (Ny. translates) free from cruelty (TB.on harmlessness ) isn't really clear because of its relation with the second. Actually one would expect correspondence with wholesome mental action (Kamma Patha): unselfishness ,good will , right views, opposed to greed , hate and delusion /evil view ... N: Vitakka is a cetasika that hits or touches the object that is experienced and assists citta in cognizing the object. When it assists citta accompanied by pa~n~naa of the eightfold Path it assists citta and the other cetasikas to know this or that ruupa and this or that naama appearing at the present moment. D: hm.. let me try ..thinking /thought is a mental activity that 'hits or touches ' (? how about 'that relates ' ? with) the object that is experienced and assists the momentary consciousness in cognition. the second part after your response .. ;-) N: Sammaa di.t.thi and sammaa sankappa are together the wisdom of the eightfold Path (the other factors constituting the siila and the concentration of the Path). D: well, both are specified being the panna part of the 3fold N.P. training ..supported by the foundation first of sila and then samadhi. It seems to me there is still some difference in understanding ..(with Jon , if I correctly recall ..) so I like to quote A.N. V 24 (tr. Sister Upalavanna ) 4. Duss?lasutta? ? Unvirtues 003.04. Bhikkhus, to the unvirtuous with virtues trimmed the cause for right concentration is destroyed. Without right concentration and right concentration trimmed, the cause for knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, is destroyed. Without knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, and knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, trimmed, the cause for turning away and disenchantment is destroyed. Without turning away and disenchantment and turning away and disenchantment trimmed, the cause for knowledge and vision of release is destroyed. Bhikkhus, it is like a tree with branches and foliage trimmed. Its shoots do not grow completely, the bark does not grow completely, the sap wood does not grow completely, the heartwood too does not grow completely Bhikkhus, in the same manner, to the unvirtuous with virtues trimmed the cause for right concentration is destroyed. Without right concentration and right concentration trimmed, the cause for knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, is destroyed. Without knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, and knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, trimmed, the cause for turning away and disenchantment is destroyed. Without turning away and disenchantment and turning away and disenchantment trimmed, the cause for knowledge and vision of release is destroyed. Bhikkhus, to the virtuous, virtues beome the cause for right concentration. When there is right concentration it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision to see things as they really are. When there is knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, it becomes the cause for turning away and disenchantment. When there is turning away and disenchantment it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision of release. Bhikkhus, it is like a tree endowed with branches and foliage. Its shoots grow completely, the bark grows completely, the sap wood grows completely, the heartwood too grows completely Bhikkhus, in the same manner, to the virtuous, virtues become the cause for right concentration. When there is right concentration it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision to see things as they really are. When there is knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, it becomes the cause for turning away and disenchantment. When there is turning away and disenchantment it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision of release. unquote N: (D I would prefer to postphone possible question(s) to Khun Sujin > until we can somehow conclude the discussion of our topic ..) ------ N: Perhaps now, so that I can print them out? BUt when you feel inclined to it. D: better wait for the right question ..something the group may have not an answer to..e.g. who was Khun Sujin's teacher ? is likely to be known by you , isn't it? with Metta Dieter #105211 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 13-feb-2010, om 20:07 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: better wait for the right question ..something the group may > have not an answer to..e.g. who was Khun Sujin's teacher ? is > likely to be known by you , isn't it? ------ N: But what you just wrote is also a good point to be raised. I print it out. Her teacher was Acharn Naeb, she taught Kh Sujin Abhidhamma. I never met her, and later on she died. Right away when I came to Bgk Kh sujin gave me Acharn Naeb's book. I stumbled over the idea that there is a sitting rupa. Nina. #105212 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: Eye-consciousness & vedana, such as pain truth_aerator Dear Nina, all, CMA says that first 4 sense consciousness experience only equanimity, while body&mind can experience pleasant/painful vedana. What happens when one looks directly at the sun without wearing sunglasses? Isn't there pain based on the eye? [same could be said about hearing very loud or screeching noise, etc]. I am *not* talking about emotional reaction like liking or disliking. Just bare sensation (vedana) without any conceptual interpretation. Strictly speaking the fleshy eye and body doesn't feel anything as inert matter. The feeling itself in any/every case is mental. Aren't the first 4 sense consciousness all belong to the mind in general? How would CMA analyze "looking at the sun and feeling pain"? Unwholesome resultant eye-consciousness accompanied with equanimity being followed by unwholesome body-resultant accompanied with pain? Doesn't the above contradict the suttas which say that All 6 senses can experience 3 types of vedana, thus making 18 total vedana. These 18 can be multiplied by 3 time periods and for layperson vs renunciant making 18x2 = 54 *2 = 108 feelings. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.022.nypo.html#feel-108 With metta, Alex #105213 From: "colette" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:39 pm Subject: going, going, GONE, that's out of the ball park. ksheri3 Hi Alex, GREAT APPLICATION! Indeed, what is the point if no resultant phenomena will occur? Here we get to my friend Lucy Stanford questioning me, in a western hermetic site, in 2004, about FAITH. Alex, I see your point, it relies completely on this thing we call FAITH, however, lets examine this outside of this belief and inside the constructs, the obscurations, of BUDDHISM. Doesn't it all get back to NAME & FORM? As I was suggesting elsewheres, today, WHAT CONSTITUTES UP? What constitutes Down? Lets take it further, WHAT CONSTITUTES IN? What constitutes OUT? What constitutes GOOD? What constitutes Bad? These are all nothing more than NAMES assigned to FORMS. As I was saying, elsewheres, today, what constitutes UP? How can I or you say UP and that instinctively genereates a movement in your body, your head more specifically, to look upward? Why is that? Didn't Pavlov prove that a dog can be made to salivate by simply making motions to an object or simpluy making noises as if a bag of goodies were being opened? Why is it that a monkey will choose to INTAKE cocaine over and above the intake of FOOD? Stimulus Response, no? Isn't the "word" a stimulus? Take for instance Edwin Meese and Ronald Reagan in the late 1960s, weren't they in the process of building their "anti-drug" campaign in California based upon Haite & Ashbury Sts. in San Francisco? Isn't that, the psychology, the stimulus response, the reason for Edwin Meese getting a fat paycheck from riding on the Reagan bandwagon, in 1980? <..> What? ARen't we talking about the ancient BLACK ART of THE MARTIAL ARTS? Maybe it's my westernization and my ignorance, maybe we are actually talking about ACCUPUNCTURE. Doesn't the Martial ARts focus on specific points of the body and isn't it true that accupuncture focuses on specific points of the body? Why is it that one is regarded as negative while the other is regarded as positive when they are both built upon the foundation of the body i.e. mind-body-spirit? Alex, I totally agree w/ you on the concept that K.Sujin requires that prerequisites be met before she can be dealt with/cognized but there are much deeper aspects to observe here than the simple position of K.Sujin i.e. where did this concept come from, how does it occur, how does it maintain it's strength of authority, etc.? <...> Thanx. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: <...> > Then why do you, Jon, ever "study, consider, reflect, visit Bankgok to hear KS" and so on? > > > > > The conditions for the arising of panna were clearly spelt out by >the Buddha. They are the 4 things beginning with 'association with >the right person' that have been mentioned so often here. None of >these 4 prerequisites are *things to do*. > > Then what is the point in listing those 4 things if they aren't *things to do*? > > What about MN2 where the Buddha has talked about things to avoid and things to do? > > Asavas to be removed: <...> #105214 From: han tun Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta Pali words (4) hantun1 Dear Nina (Chew), Nina: Can it be online? Chew sent me offline a part of it, but it is nice to share. Even if it is a work in progress ;-)) Han: I am grateful to you for your kind interest. I do not know what Chew has to say. But I think what Chew and I are discussing is not suitable for wider discussion. Chew has the Pali text and the English translation. He also has Sayadaw Silananda's version. I have Mahasi Sayadaw's version. We are adjusting these versions. It is more or less a *Burmese affair* and we are moving on a very fast pace. Chew is already very late for the target date he has set upon himself. For non-Burmese (Chew is like a Burmese in that sense) there will be questions and questions and the progress will become extremely slow and bogged down. Respecfully, Han #105215 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:47 pm Subject: Friendship is the Greatest! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Without Ego, Friendship can even be Infinite: The Blessed Buddha said of this beautiful Friendship (Kalyanamittata): By this following method, Ananda, it may be understood how the entire Holy & Noble Life is sole good friendship, good companionship, and good comradeship: By relying upon me as a good friend, Ananda, beings subject to birth are freed from birth, ageing beings are freed from their ageing, beings subject to disease are freed from illness, beings subject to death are freed from death, beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, and desperate despair are freed from this grief, pain, frustration and misery! Therefore, Ananda it may be emphasized, how this entire Noble Life is all based on good friendship, beautiful amity, and benevolent harmony... Comments: Selfless friendship is the most deep, genuine, sincere and sweet! Why so? It is not limited or tainted by any egoistic self-interest, which otherwise interferes, as soon as an assumed 'self' suspects even minor overstepping of it's perceived territorial 'my' domain.. If there is no self present, how can it ever be possessive? ") The Blessed Buddha often emphasized: Sabbe Dhamma Anatta... All states are selfless, egoless, ownerless, & void of any core "I"-dentity! Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya 3(18): [I 88] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice, noble & friendly day! Friendship is the Greatest! #105216 From: han tun Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Burden hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah and others, (1) khandhabhaaro (2) kilesabhaaro (3) abhisa"nkhaarabhaaro As I could not get the English translation of the Co, I do not know the explanation of the three burdens given therein. Anyway, my understanding is as follows. (1) khandhabhaaro is the five aggregates. It is the burden described in Bhaara sutta. (2) kilesabhaaro is the burden of kilesas. Among kilesas, I consider papa~nca dhammas (ta.nhaa, maana, ditthi) and two muula in Dependent Origination (avijjaa and ta.nhaa) are the burden of kilesas, because they condition the five aggregates over and over again in the sa.msaara. (3) abhisa"nkhaarabhaaro is the burden of sa"nkhaara. They are the same as abhisa"nkhaara cetanaa and abhisa"nkhaara vi~n~naa.na mentioned in the Co of Dhaniya sutta. They also condition the five aggregates over and over again in the sa.msaara. Therefore, the main burden is the five aggregates (khandhabhaaro). The kilesabhaaro and abhisa"nkhaarabhaaro are the conditioning factors for the main burden. In terms of the three vattas in Dependent Origination, khandhabhaaro represents vipaaka-vatta, kilesabhaaro represents kilesaa-vatta, and abhisa"nkhaarabhaaro represents kamma-vatta. These are just my thoughts. Respectfully, Han #105217 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:28 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary sarahprocter... Dear Alex & all, Typo corrections for #105091 It should read as follows: > >Simile of the Raft p.228: > > "Bhikkhus, when you know the Dhamma to be similar to a raft, you should abandon even good states, how much more so bad states." > > Note *255*: > "'Dhammaa pi vo phaatabbaa pageva adhammaa.' MA identifies the good states with serenity and insight (samatha-vipassanaa), and paraphrases the meaning: 'I teach, bhikkhus, even the abandoning of desire and attachment to such peaceful and sublime states as serenity and *insight*, how much more so to that low, vulgar, contemptible, coarse, and impure thing that this foolish Ari.t.tha sees as harmless when he says that there is no obstruction in desire and lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure.' The commentator cites MN 66.26-33 as an example of the Buddha teaching the abandonment of attachment to serenity, MN 38.14 as an example of his teaching the abandonment of attachment to insight. Note that it is in each case the ATTACHMENT to the good states that should be abandoned, not the good states themselves. The Buddha's injunction is not an invitation to moral nihilism or a proposal that the enlightened person has gone beyond good and evil. In this connection see MN 76.51" (end Bodhi quote>< > ***** > Metta > > Sarah > ========= > #105218 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Just vipakas, maybe let me explain more. > > Today?I met an unplesant matter,? there were many thoughts?of whether I will lose my job because of this.?? Then?the thought of vipaka arise.? If unproductive kamma vipaka will to arise and take away what I have, that is nothing I could do about it, it is just vipaka, conditions.? As what AS said "What can we do"?an interesting?phrase which I like to hear. .... S: And what exactly is the akusala vipaka in this matter? Was there any akusala vipaka in particular through the body-sense, eye-sense or ear-sense? Isn't the "Unpleasant matter" just thinking with dosa? .... > What has to arise, will arise.? What will happen, will happen.?? It is the understanding of dhamma that matters when it arise.? Understanding vipaka when it arise in our senses.? ? ... S: Yes. Winning a lottery doesn't necessarily mean more kusala vipaka in our senses and losing one's job doesn't necessarily mean more akusala vipaka in our senses, does it? .... >When panna arise to understand kamma vipaka of the senses, is there?no self to lose, no self to be afraid of.? Where is there material gain to be clung to, to hold on to.? It is just vipaka, another?paramatha dhammas :-) .... S: When you say material gain "is just vipaka", are you sure it isn't a conventional idea we have of vipaka? Metta Sarah p.s wishing you well with your job and the matter! ======= ? #105219 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:15 am Subject: Re: Relics sarahprocter... Dear pt, Thank you for copying and sharing the text on the relics. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > No worries, in the future you can just give a reference, I'll find it in the library when I'm there as I think it has most of PTS books. ... S: Good to know. > .... > It's the Fisher library of University of Sydney - just off Broadway in the park between Broadway and City road, you probably know it. I think anyone can come in and read, and members can borrow as well. I think they have most of the PTS books. I was really happy when I saw it all in one place. There's also a lot of other stuff, though mostly Mahayana. I also saw Nina's ADL, pocketsize edition, quite old, and when I opened it, something like half of the text was underlined by different pens, meaning people really found it useful - when I looked at the back, there were a lot and lot of stamps, borrowed many times. In comparison, when I looked at the back of the patthana translation, not a single stamp, so it seems it hasn't been borrowed a single time in all the years it's been there (until me that is or at least until they got in the electronic checkout a few years ago). ... S: Not surprising - the Patthana is hardly bed-time reading. When I used to go to libraries and borrow books, I used to enjoy checking out all the stamps too! I haven't been to the library you mention - maybe I will sometime just to bump into you in the Abhidhamma section:-). Sounds like it has an impressive collection. We'll have to get it a new copy of ADL sometime... Thx for sharing. Like Nina, I appreciate all your kind and understanding letters to everyone as well. Metta Sarah ======== #105220 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re:kamma. sarahprocter... Dear Lukas (& Chuck), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > L: I just dont kill. But I am aware that 'killing' can drop in into our lifes anytime. Like my Grandma bought this year a carp for Christmas. This was also my fault I didnt mentioned that i dont want a carp this year. She decided to go and bought it. And the carp was still living. So I couldnt bear that it's sufering. I was thinking maybe to kill it. He was dying for a few hours. There was intention to kill. I could not choose my intentions, they just arise and fall away ;> .... S: An interesting tale. As you say, the intentions are conditioned, sometimes unpredictably. If there's metta and compassion and equanimity too when a being is suffering, then no dosa, no thought of killing. .... > I also know my grandma had intention too, she went to the shop and bought it. Maybe she thought about family, that is nice to have a fish, or maybe she was intended to have it because other people has it each year. ... S: Her kind thoughts which we can appreciate. ... > This intention conditions kamma. This is a kamma. It arises and fall away. Vipassana means not only to devlop kusala, but the most important to develop understanding of each dhamma in life. This understanding conditions kusala development. ... S: Yes, so more equanimity, less thought of harming. We understand the carp's suffering is the result of kamma. ... > L: Even when I want to pick up somethin from a floor, there is intention. > But this is not intention to kill. This is simply the intention to pick up something. The intention to kill has it's object a concept of a person, I think. ... S: yes, any living being. As you say, when you wash your face, there's no intention to kill. At the wedding we attended recently, a friend and her daughter suggested it was hypocritical not to be vegetarian but to advocate non-killing. Even though I explained about intentions, they found it difficult to accept. I appreciated all the other points you made. Always back to the citta now.... Metta Sarah ======= #105221 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:55 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Actually, I am going to delete the long screed I have just typed, responding point by point to the quotes. In the long run the question is "Is A. Chah telling us to embark on a formal practice of some kind, or is he telling us that right now there are only dhammas - no self, no doer. > > When we understand that there are only dhammas we understand that there are no formal practices - never have been, never will be. .. S: Yes, of course I agree with the conclusion. If you still have "the long screed" in your drafts, I'd like to see it. Metta Sarah p.s As you know, Nina's collecting Qs to raise in Bkk, so if you or anyone else has anymore, pls post them. ======== #105222 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary nilovg Dear friends, The deadline is very soon now, Dieter! Nina. Op 14-feb-2010, om 9:55 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Sarah > p.s As you know, Nina's collecting Qs to raise in Bkk, so if you or > anyone else has anymore, pls post them. #105223 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:08 am Subject: Re: Dosa sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > But If I know this was akusala and I hurt someone? ... S: We are all hurt by our own kilesa, our own defilements, not by the others' speech and deeds. Kammasakata-~nana is the knowledge about one's own kamma, the understanding of kamma and its results. Even when we reflect on cause and results in our daily life, it helps condition equanimity at such moments. Of course, we all like to hear friendly words, so begin to treat others kindly too, then there's no room for regrets. However, sabbe dhamma anatta - just conditioned dhammas, all falling away all the time. So let them go, as Ken O said. Metta Sarah ======= #105224 From: "sarah" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dosa sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Lukas), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > If there's awareness now, no sadness at all. > -------- > N: Very good. It is what I said to Lodewijk. He had an unpleasant > happening. He had forgotten to put my sister's partner's name in the > advertisement for my brother who passed away. She was so cross and it > seems she cannot forgive and ever speak to us again. My father used > to be the same. Now Lodewijk keeps on feeling sad. .... S: I'm sorry to hear about this. I'm quite sure Lodewijk meant no disrespect - an easy oversight. Again, we are not responsible for others' anger. Dosa will always find an object. I'm sure your sister will get over it - she's probably very distressed at this time. I remember at my father's funeral, my sister-in-law got angry with me about some small matter - just a difficult time for many. ... > I noticed Lukas' question on metta. Lodewijk says; he does not know > what metta is and would not like to end a letter with metta. We can > add this Q as being of Mr. X, Lodewijk does not want to be mentioned. ... S: I'll leave it to you to raise. At least now I know who Mr X is! I used to wonder in some of your writings before:). .... > Do not encourage him to speak, then he will speak less. ... S: We'll see! Conditions again. Metta Sarah ======= #105225 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta Pali words (4) nilovg DEar Han and Chew, Your discussion is very suitable for dsg, I saw some of it. But now I have no time to comment. See you soon, anyway, Nina. Op 13-feb-2010, om 23:09 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But I think what Chew and I are discussing is not suitable for > wider discussion. Chew has the Pali text and the English > translation. He also has Sayadaw Silananda's version. I have Mahasi > Sayadaw's version. #105226 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:52 am Subject: Dosa. Support from Phil szmicio Dear Phil, I will send your kind message I get off-list on the group. Phil write: < Hi Lukas Sarah and Ken and Nina gave you good advice as always, it's gone, etc, no point in sorrowing on it, that just adds to the defilements. I would just like to add that what you did here is in line with the Buddha's instructions to his son Rahula - when we have done something that we know is harmful to ourself and others, we should tell our friends in Dhamma - and then resolve not to do it again, work towards that. Of course we will do it again, there are accumulated tendencies for that, but I think (as I've probably said many times) the resolution, the intention (in the conventional meaning of the word) has important conditioning power. The Buddha wouldn't tell his son to reflect methodically and tell others about bad behaviour if there wasn't a good reason for it. Good to note that the sutta in question (in MN) doesn't say we should tell others about our bad mental behaviour because there would be no end of that, it only applies to wrong action and wrong speech. So I would like to praise you for following the Buddha's instructions in a way that I rarely see anywhere in the internet Dhamma world! Congratulations!> === L: I appreciate this reminder very much. You are right we should not let things like this. What is kusala can be developed, each moment. I used to forget this very much. Thanks Phil. For reminding kusala can be developed. Best wishes Lukas #105227 From: Lukas Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re:kamma. szmicio Dear Sarah, >L: This intention conditions kamma. This is a kamma. It arises and fall away. Vipassana means not only to devlop kusala, but the most important to develop understanding of each dhamma in life. This understanding conditions kusala development. ... >S: Yes, so more equanimity, less thought of harming. We understand the >carp's suffering is the result of kamma. L: Yes, this is exactly upekkha. This I think goes with right understanding, understanding of kamma and vipaka. --- >S: yes, any living being. As you say, when you wash your face, there's no >intention to kill. At the wedding we attended recently, a friend and her daughter suggested it was hypocritical not to be vegetarian but to advocate non-killing. Even though I explained about intentions, they found it difficult to accept. L: Yeap. We are very happy cause we had this opportunity to hear right Dhamma, and found right friends. Best wishes Lukas #105228 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:05 am Subject: Re: Dosa szmicio Dear Sarah, So this is better to stay with present moment now? Best wishes Lukas > S: We are all hurt by our own kilesa, our own defilements, not by the others' speech and deeds. > > Kammasakata-~nana is the knowledge about one's own kamma, the understanding of kamma and its results. Even when we reflect on cause and results in our daily life, it helps condition equanimity at such moments. > > Of course, we all like to hear friendly words, so begin to treat others kindly too, then there's no room for regrets. However, sabbe dhamma anatta - just conditioned dhammas, all falling away all the time. So let them go, as Ken O said. #105229 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dosa sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- On Sun, 14/2/10, Lukas wrote: >So this is better to stay with present moment now? ... S: What other moment is there? Metta Sarah ========= #105230 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhaniya Sutta Pali words (4) sarahprocter... Dear Han & Chew, I agree with Nina. You can keep moving fast according to your deadlines, ignore the rest of us if it helps.... Metta Sarah --- On Sun, 14/2/10, Nina van Gorkom wrote: >N: Your discussion is very suitable for dsg, I saw some of it. But now I have no time to comment. See you soon, anyway, Nina. Op 13-feb-2010, om 23:09 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But I think what Chew and I are discussing is not suitable for > wider discussion. Chew has the Pali text and the English > translation. He also has Sayadaw Silananda's version. I have Mahasi > Sayadaw's version. #105231 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dosa szmicio Dear Sarah, > --- On Sun, 14/2/10, Lukas wrote: > >So this is better to stay with present moment now? > ... > S: What other moment is there? L: Always there is what there is. But this is so hard to be at present. Understanding grows so slowly. You said: Always back to citta now. But this is so hard. I am forgetful. I enjoy pleasant life and dislike if there is a pain. I prefer to live with stories. I remeber your old reminders for me, this took me really to the present. I miss those few, so natural moments of yoniso manasikara. Best wishes Lukas #105232 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations and dwindling of akusala kamma patha sarahprocter... Dear Phil, I'll also f/w your further kind and helpful reflections to the list. ...... >Hi Sarah Nice to touch bases, briefly. I think about you with gratitude a lot. > > If akusala has been accumulating for aeons (and it has, not disputing that) how is it possible for the Buddha to teach that sila in this one lifetime can lead to favourable rebirth? > ... > S: Good deeds in any lifetime can lead to a favourable rebirth. The Tipitaka is full of accounts of good deeds from previous lives way, way back (even those in the times of past, past Buddhas) bringing favourable rebirths in the present life. The Therii tales which Connie posted were full of such detail (see 'sisters' in U.P.). Likewise, bad deeds can lead to an unfavourable rebirth anytime. Ph: Yes, I know this. But you do not find the Buddha stressing this point in Dhammapada for example, and Buddhagosa's commentary to Dhammapada doesn't mention it, at least not in the fairly extensive passages from the commentary given in the edition I have. The "you have not made provisions for the journey" into death is referring to this one lifetime. Why is it taught this way, when we know it can be kamma from any lifetime that is the deciding citta? That point is always interesting to me, and I don't have the answer and don't need it for now. I suspect it is another case of the Buddha teaching in a way that is good for his audience, and Dhammapada is suitable for people who need a little oomph of a push to behave well, even if there is sakkaya ditthi involved in their sila, as there almost always is for me. > ... > >It might have to do with something that Rob Moult had in his book on Abhidhamma, that in natural decisive support condition, kammas that are recent have greater weight. A.S denies that and I haven't come across it anywhere else - yet - but it provides a logical explanation for the above question. > ... > S: As you'll recall, I picked up on this point of Rob's, found absolutely no support for it in the texts, raised it with AS, who (as you say) also dismissed it. Conditions are very complex aren't they? Ph: One great thing about you, Sarah (and there are many) is that when you say this I can be confident that you are right and are telling the truth. If Rob M is still reading, perhaps he can tell us more about the source of that point he made. I've never heard Bhikkhu Bodhi, for example, talk about it. But Bhikkhu Bodhi did talk about the way all the kammas of a lifetime gather and gain force and kind of impel the mindstream into the next life, he taught about it in a way that sounded like it is the kammas of this life that gain force and do that, with one breaking out of the cumulative pack and doing the continuation, the way one sperm breaks out of the pack and penetrates the egg. I have some doubts about the way he taught that, though it is appealing since it makes it sound as though the kammas of this one lifetime are the ones that provide that cumulative force. (snip) > .... > >I will lead this one lifetime believing that this is the case for the sake of the conditioning power involved in such a belief, even as I keep the channel open for gradually getting into a deeper and possibly truer understanding. > ... > S: I feel sure that as the understanding does become deeper and deeper, the confidence in the value and importance of sila becomes firmer and firmer, so that one doesn't need to think of any carrots, such as a good rebirth, because it just wouldn't occur to one to cause harm and fear to others by killing, stealing, lying and sexual misconduct. One will also find one is just not tempted to take intoxicants. Ph: This "as understandig does become deeper" is something that may happen for a few people, but for most it doesn't and won't, so to deny people conditions for sila because they don't have deep understanding is wrong, it's not the Buddha's way. The Buddha most definitely and surely does provide carrots to prompt wholesome behaviour by people who don't have deep understanding such as myself. I have no doubt about that. But I also agree that it is by understanding that develops tha sila must eventually be conditioned if there is to be liberation. As always, you are setting deep understanding as a kind of assumed preliminary condition, which is a bit of an appropriation game as far as I'm concerned. But yet, as that understanding develops, *if* it develops rather than being forced into the mind, the temptations will disappear gradually. BTW, I do feel quite often that I gained a lot by listening to A.S, there is quite a lot of unconscious, increasingly habitual "being aware of realities of the moment", or something like that, and I'm sure listening to A.S and reading Nina's books etc had a really beneficial impact for me, so thank you all. For example, it is especially helpful with the kind of dosa that leads to harsh speech, there seems to be satipatthana of some ilk that is mindful of what's up, and again and again there is an increasingly habitual release from showing aversion. I have raised my voice in slight anger twice all year (I note all cases in my diary) which is remarkable and cannot be resolved to happen, it just happens as good condtions gather more and more oftgen.... Catch you again in a few months. Metta, Phil< ...... S: As I have "a few months", I'll take my time to respond:) In the meantime, many thanks for your detailed comments and further reflections. Metta Sarah Btw, just before I saw your note I'd had a thought - a friend has a holiday house in a N.Japan ski resort which he's invited us to use anytime out of the ski season. Perhaps one day we can get there and invite you and Naomi to join us as it has plenty of room... ======= #105233 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary jonoabb Hi KenO (105202) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > ... > KO: that is why I said, depends on one's interpretation. That is why it is useless to dicuss whether there is formal or not formal samadhi. It is more impt the development of understanding. The development of samantha is not a matter of following a particular method is correct. But the development of samadhi there is a particular method. If we speak strictly by Visud on the forty samadhi subjects. > =============== J: The Vis passage is actually about the development of samatha, specifically for followers of the Buddha who have already developed samatha to a certain level and who have the potential to attain jhana in the present lifetime. But I do not think there is a method in the sense of things ('practices') to be done which a person can follow and thereby progress towards jhana. What is described in the text are things that are meaningful only for a person of the appropriate level of development, but which cannot be 'done' by someone who is not of that level of attainment. > =============== > KO: Jon this I know there is always a danger of kilesa., we are not talking about subtle kilesa here. We are talking whether there is a samadhi in Buddha teaching. If not Buddhaghosa will not go on length to describe it in Visud. Yes there is, but for who,for what purpose, and on what conditions, practitionars should refer seriously on what is written in Visud. We cannot denied its existence but we could ask ourselves, for what and for who. Still, if there is no panna, there is no development. > =============== J: Yes, samatha requires panna for its development, but panna of a kind different from the panna that is required for the development of awareness/insight. > =============== One could practise samadhi on a the kasina object but without panna, it is only condition rupa planes rebirth. > =============== J: To my understanding, samadhi without panna will not result in the development of samatha and thus would not condition rebirth in the rupa planes. As regards the panna that is required for the development of samatha, we need to understand where this fits into the picture. Concentrating on a kasina does not require panna, nor could it be a condition for panna to arise (panna of what?). Jon #105234 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:49 pm Subject: Re: acausality? jonoabb Hi Alex (105209) > > J: In a sense, what you say here is correct: none of those things, >as *activities to be done*, can condition wholesomeness to arise. > > Then why do you, Jon, ever "study, consider, reflect, visit Bankgok to hear KS" and so on? > =============== J: Everyone undertakes conventional activities (it would be impossible not to!). But it need not be assumed that a specific conventional activity is kusala of a particular kind, since the quality of the accompanying consciousness is bound to be mixed, at best. > =============== > Then what is the point in listing those 4 things if they aren't *things to do*? > =============== J: The 4 prerequisites are given by the Buddha because they are conditions for the development of insight. Knowing this, the development of insight becomes possible. > =============== > What about MN2 where the Buddha has talked about things to avoid and things to do? > > Asavas to be removed: > > by seeing, (4NT, ideas that lead do dropping of sensuality, becoming, ignorance ) > > ?by restraining, (the 6 sense-faculties) > > ?by using, (using the robe, the alms food, lodging, medicinal requisites appropriately) ... > =============== J: A good sutta. It's all about wise attention, the meaning of which is explained in detail in the section on "seeing". In each of the cases of restraining, using, etc it is said that the bhikkhu does so "reflecting wisely". For example (Bhikkhu Bodhi translation): "Here a bhikkhu, reflecting wisely, abides with the eye faculty restrained ?" "Here a bhikkhu, reflecting wisely, uses the robe only for protection from cold ? ". So it's not a sutta about doing specific activities in order to develop awareness/insight. Rather it's about how wise attention allows one to abide with the eye faculty restrained, or to use the requisites properly, etc. > =============== > > Any given activity can be done with or without panna, with or >without kusala, > > Same is with meditation. It can be done with or without panna. With or without wrong views. In kusala or akusala way. > =============== J: An activity that is done as part of a "practice" for the development of the path, but is based on an incorrect intellectual understanding of the teachings in regard to the development of the path, would be wrong practice. > =============== > But some, like Nina and KS, do say them.\ > Nina: "Kh Sujin repeated several times that understanding has to be developed." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/105201 > =============== J: Yes, but not by undertaking specific conventional activities. > =============== > > J: The Upanisa Sutta describes dhammas that are proximate cause for other dhammas. We need to understand what is meant by 'proximate cause'. To say that A is a proximate cause for B does not mean that A is the cause of B arising. > > Are you teach acausality view, Jon? What is proximate cause, then? > =============== J: A proximate cause is simply a conditioning factor (it may be one of a number of such factors). Jon #105235 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka jonoabb Hi Dieter (105210) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > D: well, both are specified being the panna part of the 3fold N.P. training ..supported by the foundation first of sila and then samadhi. > It seems to me there is still some difference in understanding ..(with Jon , if I correctly recall ..) > so I like to quote A.N. V 24 (tr. Sister Upalavanna ) > =============== Thanks, Dieter. Happy to discuss. What is your take on this sutta, and it's relevance to our difference in understanding? Jon > 4. Duss?lasutta? ? Unvirtues > > 003.04. Bhikkhus, to the unvirtuous with virtues trimmed the cause for right concentration is destroyed. Without right concentration and right concentration trimmed, the cause for knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, is destroyed. Without knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, and knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, trimmed, the cause for turning away and disenchantment is destroyed. Without turning away and disenchantment and turning away and disenchantment trimmed, the cause for knowledge and vision of release is destroyed. ... #105236 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka moellerdieter Hi Jon , you wrote: 'Thanks, Dieter. Happy to discuss. What is your take on this sutta, and it's relevance to our difference in understanding?' Jon, first you asked for the source regarding the divison of the Path factors in the 3 fold training which I provided and then you wrote: 'Thanks for the sutta reference. However, the division of the factors of the NEP into sila, samadhi and panna in that sutta is not explained there as being a sequencing of the practice.' I think the quoted sutta provides you with that explanation , especially snip : 'Bhikkhus, to the virtuous, virtues beome the cause for right concentration. When there is right concentration it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision to see things as they really are. When there is knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, it becomes the cause for turning away and disenchantment. When there is turning away and disenchantment it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision of release. Bhikkhus, it is like a tree endowed with branches and foliage. Its shoots grow completely, the bark grows completely, the sap wood grows completely, the heartwood too grows completely Bhikkhus, in the same manner, to the virtuous, virtues become the cause for right concentration. When there is right concentration it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision to see things as they really are. When there is knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, it becomes the cause for turning away and disenchantment. When there is turning away and disenchantment it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision of release.' with Metta Dieter #105237 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:15 pm Subject: Dhutanga, Sila and practice in VsM truth_aerator Hello Jon, Sarah, KenH, Nina, All, >J: In each of the cases of restraining, using, etc it is said that >the bhikkhu does so "reflecting wisely". For example (Bhikkhu Bodhi >translation): >"Here a bhikkhu, reflecting wisely, abides with the eye faculty >restrained ?""Here a bhikkhu, reflecting wisely, uses the robe only >for protection from cold Excellent point. One studies the proper behaviour (such as outline in FIRST 2 chapters of VsM) and then one does it. So "wisely reflecting" doesn't remain in theory only, impotent and unable to provide tangible and practical result. >J: Everyone undertakes conventional activities (it would be >impossible not to!). But it need not be assumed that a >specific conventional activity is kusala of a particular kind, since the quality of the accompanying consciousness >is bound to be mixed, at best. In VsM, Buddhaghosa spends ~53 pages (pg5-58) talking about Sila/Virtue, proper behaviour of monks. (Ch1) Ascetic practices (dhutanga ) for 27 pages (58-85). (Ch2) Samadhi takes ~ 282 pages (pg85-368) Panna ~306 pages (435-741) Sila + Samadhi part outnumber Panna - and are mentioned FIRST. \ 362 pages vs 306 pages. In any case, Ven. Buddhaghosa has spend considerable time talking about sila, dhutanga practices and yes, Samadhi. Are some students here so capable that they can dispense with Sila and Samadhi development as explained in VsM? So there is quite a bit to say about "taints to be avoided by restraining, using, tolerating, avoiding, destroying, developing)". The knowledge is required here, one must know WHAT to do. VsM talks about this quite a bit. "Thirteen kinds of ascetic practices have been allowed by the Blessed One to clansmen who have given up the things of the flesh and, regardless of body and life, are desirous of undertaking a practice in conformity [with their aim]. They are: i. the refuse-rag-wearer's practice, ii. the triple-robe-wearer's practice, iii. the alms-food-eater's practice, iv. the house-to-house-seeker's practice, v. the one-sessioner's practice, vi. the bowl-food-eater's practice, vii. the later-food-refuser's practice, viii. the forest-dweller's practice, ix. the tree-root-dweller's practice, x. the open-air-dweller's practice, xi. the charnel-ground-dweller's practice, xii. the any-bed-user's practice, xiii. the sitter's practice. " -VsM II, 2 "4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats. In DN29(Pasadika sutta) it is said that 4 Jhanas lead to 4 stages of sainthood (stream entry -> arhatship) In MN66, the four Jhanas are said to be "renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared."" The yoniso manasikaro on 4 NT in MN2 doesn't need to exclude Jhana. In fact it can happen after Jhana. [after 4th Jhana]""With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance." - DN2 (see fruits of contemplative life starting with 4 Jhanas) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html ""Now, there is the case where a monk ? quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities ? enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation ? internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain ? as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress ? he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.066.than.html I understand that ascetic practices which were spoken so often in VsM, are sheer drop off for some. Are KS students so gifted with so many accumulations that they don't need dhutanga and samadhi kammatthana practice? It is much more convenient and easy to not-exert, not to sacrifice any comfort, to have one's cake and eat it too... With metta, Alex #105238 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Dear Nina, sorry, at the moment I can't think of any question we could not discuss here.. with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary Dear friends, The deadline is very soon now, Dieter! Nina. Op 14-feb-2010, om 9:55 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven: > Sarah > p.s As you know, Nina's collecting Qs to raise in Bkk, so if you or > anyone else has anymore, pls post them. #105239 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka truth_aerator Hello Dieter, Jon, all, > "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Jon , > I think the quoted sutta provides you with that explanation , especially > snip : > 'Bhikkhus, to the virtuous, virtues beome the cause for right concentration. When there is right concentration it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision to see things as they really are. When there is knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, it becomes the cause for turning away and disenchantment. When there is turning away and disenchantment it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision of release. Bhikkhus, it is like a tree endowed with branches and foliage. Its shoots grow completely, the bark grows completely, the sap wood grows completely, the heartwood too grows completely Bhikkhus, in the same manner, to the virtuous, virtues become the cause for right concentration. When there is right concentration it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision to see things as they really are. When there is knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, it becomes the cause for turning away and disenchantment. When there is turning away and disenchantment it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision of release.' > > > with Metta Dieter Thank you for a sutta quote. It does clearly states that 1) virtue first, it then supports 2) Concentration THE CONCENTRATION allows one to 3) See things as they are. So ultimately, the real panna is derived from samadhi as proximate cause. Similar is in VsM. First half of the book is devoted to virtue and concentration. VsM goes to great detail talking about things to do, and it does talk about how dhutanga (ascetic practices) are beneficial for wordling and trainees. The very important point here is that dhutanga is something to do as well as other things written in VsM. The Buddhist path is not limited to theory only. "No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 There are also specific impediments. This shows us that not every situation is ideal. Ten Impediments: VsM III, 29 "A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." As to unfavourable monastery VsM - IV,2 : "Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond, [edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not favourable. He should not live there. " === "Thirteen kinds of ascetic practices have been allowed by the Blessed One to clansmen who have given up the things of the flesh and, regardless of body and life, are desirous of undertaking a practice in conformity [with their aim]. They are: i. the refuse-rag-wearer's practice, ii. the triple-robe-wearer's practice, iii. the alms-food-eater's practice, iv. the house-to-house-seeker's practice, v. the one-sessioner's practice, vi. the bowl-food-eater's practice, vii. the later-food-refuser's practice, viii. the forest-dweller's practice, ix. the tree-root-dweller's practice, x. the open-air-dweller's practice, xi. the charnel-ground-dweller's practice, xii. the any-bed-user's practice, xiii. the sitter's practice." -VsM II, 2 "4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 === "So, Ananda, I have taught you the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of a noble one; I have taught you how one is a person in training, someone following the way; I have taught you how one is a noble one with developed faculties. Whatever a teacher should do ? seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them ? that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, Ananda. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you all." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.152.than.html With metta, Alex #105240 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary nilovg Dear Dieter, Yes that is with most of the points raised here. But I took note of some of your points and we shall see how to bring them in. Nina. Op 14-feb-2010, om 19:03 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > sorry, at the moment I can't think of any question we could not > discuss here.. #105241 From: "colette" Date: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka ksheri3 HI Alex, Of course you are certainly aware of my presence: THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE? At least you got it correct that the first thing you have to tackle is the problem that you and all other sentient beings have had the most trouble with: You speak so highly of virtue and virtueosity however you ALWAYS PROVE, 100% of the time always prove, that virtue is just a charlattan's DOUBLE TALK, DOUBLE SPEAK, for the real obsession VICE! Now after you prove that there is a seperation between that which is virtue and that which is VICE THEN you can move on to showing how you personally ALWAYS PERFORM, ACT, BEHAVE, THINK, ALWAYS, ACCORDING TO THE DEFINITION OF VIRTUE and how vice is the problem. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: <...> > Thank you for a sutta quote. It does clearly states that > 1) virtue first, > it then supports > 2) Concentration > THE CONCENTRATION allows one to > 3) See things as they are. > > So ultimately, the real panna is derived from samadhi as proximate cause. <...> #105242 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:20 am Subject: The 3 Ultimate Facts! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The 3 Universal Characteristics are Absolute: All form is unstable, falling apart, transient and inevitably vanishing! Therefore is all form fragile, frustrating, and ultimately disappointing! Therefore is all form ownerless, neither what I am, nor mine or self! All feeling is unsteady, disintegrating, temporary and just fading away! Therefore is all feeling feeble, annoying, and really a painful suffering! Therefore is all feeling unkeepable, alien, not-me-nor-mine-nor-any-self! All perception is fickle, collapsing, transitory and quickly disappearing! Therefore is all perception frail, bothering, and never quite enough! Therefore is all perception foreign, strange, not-me-nor-mine-nor-self! All construction is insecure, subsiding, ephemeral and always leaving! Therefore is all construction brittle, irksome, and invariably inadequate! Therefore is all construction impersonal and not-me-nor-mine-nor-self! All consciousness is momentary, fleeting, passing, evanescent and lost! Therefore is all consciousness insubstantial, tedious, and quite miserable! Therefore is all consciousness egoless, alien and neither-me-nor-I-nor-self! Thus seeing, thus knowing, thus assured, and clearly comprehending, but shattered, and disgusted, yet still calm, cool and collected, one gradually stops taking up and accumulating these things, since only fools pick up pain! One instead Relinquishes! This -only and exactly this release by letting go- is the liberating escape from all suffering, be it past, future or present! The Blessed Buddha said: Whether Perfect Ones appear in the world, or whether Perfect Ones do not appear in the world, this still remains the same condition, an immutable fact, and a fixed regular nature-law: That all constructions are impermanent, that all constructions are subject to suffering, that everything is without a self... Anguttara Nikaya III 134 Constructions are all impermanent: When he sees thus with understanding And turns away from what is ill, Then that is the path to mental purity. Constructions are all suffering: When he sees thus with understanding And turns away from what is sick, Then this is the path to mental purity. All states are all without a same self: When he sees thus with understanding And turns away from what is illusory, This is verily the path to mental purity. Dhammapada 277-79 Regarding these 3 general characteristics or signs (Ti-lakkhana ) see also: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_3_Universal_Characteristics.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/s_t/ti_lakkhana.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/V/Anything_Whatsoever.htm Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! The 3 Ultimate Facts! #105243 From: "connie" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:42 am Subject: The Burden nichiconn Dear Han, re: #105178, paa.li. Here is Masefield's translation of The Itivuttaka Commentary, Exposition of the Section Dealing with Double Items, 44 - The Nibbaana-element Sutta: (II.2.7) In the seventh: : dve 'maa = dve imaa (resolution of sandhi). Vaana [jungle] denotes craving, its being "nibbaana" since it has got out (nikkhanta.m) of that vaana, or since it is here that there is no (na) vaana, or else since there is an absence of such vaana when this is attained, that same "nibbaana-element" being such since it is an element (dhaatu) in the sense of lacking any being and of lacking any soul and in the sense of sustaining (dhaara.na) its own nature. Even though this admits, in the highest sense, of no differentiation, nonetheless, since it is by way of context that something becomes evident, he first says "Monks, there are these two nibbaana-elements" referring to their contextual differentiation, after which "[That nibbaana-element] with substrate-remnant" and so on is said to indicate the subdivision implied. Herein, it is a substrate (upaadi) - the khandha-pentad - since it is grasped (upaadiiyati) by an instance of fruition as a result of craving and so on. It is a substrate-remnant, since this same substrate is itself a remnant, its being "with substrate-remnant", since it is accompanied by that substrate-remnant, "without substrate-remnant" on account of the absence thereof. (araha.m): one for whom the defilements are aloof (aarakakileso), meaning one for whom the defilements are far distant. For this was said by the Lord: "And how, monks, is a monk an arahant? Aloof for this one are evil, unskilled states that are corrupting, productive of again-becoming, stressful, have dukha as their ripening, and lead to birth, old age and dying in the future. In this way, monks, is a monk an arahant" (M I 280). (khii.naasavo): he is "one in whom the aasavas have been destroyed" (khii.naasavo), since for the arahant the four aasavas (aasavaa) such as the aasava of sense-desires and so on, are destroyed (knii.naa), extirpated, abandoned, tranquillized, incapable of arising, burnt up by the fire of knowledge. (vusitavaa): one who has stayed, completed, fulfilled, the course where co-residence with one's guru, the ariyan path, and the ten ariyan abodes are concerned is "one who has stayed the course" (vusitavaa), since he is one for whom the course is completed, one for whom the journey is travelled. (katakara.niiyo): it is the seven sekhas, beginning with the lovely puthujjana, who are said to be doing what is to be done by way of the four paths, [whereas] for the one in whom the aasavas have been destroyed all that is to be done has been done, has been concluded, this one being "one who has done what was to be done" since there is nothing further to be done for the sake of the attaining the destruction of dukkha. And this, too, is said, For the monk who is properly liberated, whose heart is calm, there is nothing to add to what has been done - for this one "that which is to be done" does not exist. - Vin I 185; A III 378; Th 642. (ohitabhaaro): the three burdens are the burden of the khandhas, the burden of the defilements and the burden of the accumulations; since for this one these three burdens have been laid down, put down, deposited, made to fall, he is "one who has laid down the burden". : anuppattasadattho = anuppatto sadattha.m (resolution of compound in alternative grammatical form), sakattha.m being what is said, with the syllable ka transformed into the syllable da; since that which has been reached by this one is his own goal, he is "one who has reached his own goal", it being arahantship that is to be understood by "his own goal". For this is one's own goal (sakattho) in the sense of being bound up with self, in the sense of the non-relinquishing of self, and on account of the fact that it is one's own (attano) goal (atthattaa) in the hightest sense of self (attano). (parikkhii.nabhavasa.myojano): these [ten fetters] - viz. the fetter of lust for sense-pleasures, the fetter of repulsion, and the fetter[s] of conceit, [wrong] view, ucertainty, misapprehension about morality and ritual, lust for becoming, envy, selfishness and ignorance - are known as becoming's fetters, since they fetter beings where becomings are concerned, cause them to be bound up with same, or else since they fetter [one] becoming with [another] becoming, cause it to be bound up therewith; he is "one for whom becoming's fetters have been totally destroyed", since these are, for the arahant, totally destroyed, abandoned, burnt up by the fire of knowledge. (sammada~n~naa vimutto): in this connection, sammada~n~naa = sammaa a~n~naaya (resolution of compound in alternative grammatical form); this is what is said - one who, upon knowing (a~n~naaya = jaanitvaa, synonyms), judging, weighing up, clarifying, rendering clear, [things] properly, as they really are, [which things] admit of the following divisions, viz. that of the khandhas' sense is that of mass, the bases' sense is that of extension, the elements' sense is that of emptiness, dukkha's sense is that of oppressing, origin's sense is that of production, cessation's sense is that of calm, the path's sense is that of showing, and that all formations are impermanent, and so on. (vimutto): there are two liberations - liberation of heart and nibbaana; for the arahant, on account of his being liberated from all defilements, is liberated by way of the liberation of heart, as well as being liberated with respect to nibbaana too, for which reason "One who, upon knowing [things] properly, has become liberated" was said. (tassa ti.t.thant' eva pa~nca'-indriyaani): for this arahant the five faculties of the eye and so on still persist so long as the deed that constituted the root-cause of his final becoming is not exhausted. (avigatattaa): as a result of whose non-cessation by way of cessation in the form of non-arising. (manaapaamanaapa.m): that field consisting of visible forms and so on that are desireable and undesireable. (paccanubhoti): knows, obtains. (sukhadukkha.m pa.tisa.mvedeti): experiences pleasure and pain that constitute ripening, obtains [same] through those doors. After indicating, thus far, the substrate-remnant, "On this one's part" and so on is next said to indicate the nibbaana-element that is with substrate-remnant. Herein: (tassa): on the part of this arahant who is one with substrate-remnant. (yo raagakkhayo): it is the destruction, the destroyed mode, the absence, the perpetual non-arising, of lust - this is the method also where the rest are concerned. That which is indicated thus far is that it is the destructions of lust and so on that constitute the nibbaana-element that is with substrate-remnant. (idh' eva): in this same existence. (sabbavedayitaani): all sensations that are indeterminate, such as pleasure and so on, those sensations that are skilled and unskilled having, moreover, already been previously abandoned. : anabhinanditaani = na abhinanditaani (resolution of compound) by way of craving and so on. (siitibhavissanti): will become cool (siitalii) through tranquillization of the stress associated with the formations as a result of their perpetual subsiding, meaning will cease by way of cessation in the form of nonrelinking. And not merely that which is sensed alone - rather all five khandhas in that continuity in which the aasavas have been destroyed will cease, this being a teaching under the heading of that which is sensed. As regards the verses: (cakkhumataa): by the One with Vision by way of these five eyes, viz. the Buddha-eye, the Dhamma-eye, the heavenly eye, the insight-eye and the all-seeing eye. (anissitena): by the one without dependence on anything whatsoever by way of dependence in the form of craving and [wrong] view or, alternatively, by the one not bound by the bonds of lust and so on. (taadinaa): by the constant one whose characteristic mark is that of constancy reckoned as being of one and the same nature under all circumstances, amidst that which is desireable and that which is undesireable and so on, by way of that equanimity that is six-limbed. (di.t.thadhammikaa): takes place, happens, in this existence. (bhavanettisa"nkhayaa): in which becomings' lead, craving, is completely destroyed. (samparaayikaa): takes place in the hereafter, at the stage subsequent to the breaking up of the khandhas. (yambhi): in which nibbaana that is without substrate-remnant. Bhavaani [becomings] is given with a distortion of gender; rebirth-process becomings , without remainder, cease, do not occur. (te): those [whose] hearts are so liberated. (dhammasaaraadhigamaa): through the attainment of arahantship that constitutes the essence where dhammas are concerned, in that liberation is the essence of this Dhamma and Vinaya. (khaye): delight (rataa), take delight (abhirataa), in nibbaana that constitutes the destruction of lust and so on. Or, alternatively, the Dhamma-essence is nibbaana, in that it is the essence where dhammas are concerned, on account of its being permanent, and on account of its being best. For this is said, "Fading away is the best of dhammas" (Dhp 273), and "Fading away is proclaimed chief of these" (A II 34, III 35). [They] delight in destruction, in that nibbaana that is without substrate-remnant that is the complete destruction of all formations, which has as its root-cause the attainment of that Dhamma-essence. : paha.msu = pajahi.msu (alternative grammatical form). (untranslated) is a mere particle. The rest is exactly the same as that already stated. The exposition of the seventh sutta is concluded. == apologies for any carelessness. connie #105244 From: han tun Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Burden hantun1 Dear Connie, > Connie, Here is Masefield's translation of The Itivuttaka Commentary, Exposition of the Section Dealing with Double Items, 44 - The Nibbaana-element Sutta: Han: Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. I immediately find the portion of the text concerning the burden. (ohitabhaaro) : the three burdens are the burden of the khandhas, the burden of the defilements and the burden of the accumulations; since for this one these three burdens have been laid down, put down, deposited, made to fall, he is "one who has laid down the burden". I will study the whole text carefully, Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! Respctfully, Han #105245 From: "kanchuu2003" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Noble Truths! kanchuu2003 Dear Nina, Life is suffering! How do you break it into detail? Regards, Nitesh --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Kanchuu, > Op 27-dec-2009, om 17:54 heeft kanchuu2003 het volgende geschreven: > > > .Life is a suffering. > > > > Please enlighten me with this 1st Noble truth in detail > > ------- > N: Text of the Dhammacakkapavattanasutta. > > < Now this, monks, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is > suffering, old age is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is > suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation > from the pleasant is suffering, not getting what one wants is > suffering; in short, the five aggregates of clinging are suffering.> > What is life? The five khandhas. > Included in the five khandhas are all mental phenomena and physical > phenomena of our life which arise and fall away at this moment. No > matter it is seeing, visible object, attachment, aversion or > generosity, they all arise and then fall away, they are impermanent. > What is impermanent cannot be of any refuge, it is dukkha. > ---------- > Ajaan Sujin said: there should be the firm > intellectual understanding of the first noble Truth, and that means > understanding that there is dhamma at this moment, that everything that > appears is dhamma. Dukkha is the characteristic of dhamma that arises > and > falls away at this moment. > ------ > The arising and falling away of dhamma cannot yet be realised, but we > can begin to learn the characteristics of the dhammas appearing now. > That is a beginning. > It is of no use to speculate and think of the word dukkha. It is best > to at least begin to understand realities as they appear at this > moment, one at a time, through one of the senses or the mind-door. > Later one it can be understood that these are the dhammas that are > dukkha. > > Nina. > > > #105246 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:30 am Subject: [dsg] Sangiiti Sutta Fives (318, 18) and commentary. nilovg Dear friends, sutta 18. Walshe DN 33.2.1(18) 'Five kinds of Non-Returner (anaagaamii): the "less- than-half-timer", the "more-than-half-timer", the "gainer with exertion", the "gainer without exertion", "he who goes upstream to the highest". (Pa~nca anaagaamino - antaraaparinibbaayii, upahaccaparinibbaayii, asa'nkhaaraparinibbaayii, sasa'nkhaaraparinibbaayii, uddha.msotoakani.t.thagaamii.) ----------- Nyanatiloka Thera: There are 5 classes of Non-returners, as it is said (e.g. Pug. 42-46): "A being, through the disappearing of the 5 lower fetters (sa.myojana, q.v.), reappears in a higher world (amongst the devas of the Pure Abodes, Suddhaavaasa , q.v.), and without returning from that world (into the Sensuous Sphere) he there reaches Nibbaana. (1) "He may, immediately after appearing there (in the Pure Abodes) or without having gone beyond half of the life-time, attain the holy path for the overcoming of the higher fetters. Such a being is called 'one who reaches Nibba-na within the first half of the life' (antaraa- parinibbaayii). (2) "Or, whilst living beyond half of the lifetime, or at the moment of death, he attains the holy path for the overcoming of the higher fetters. Such a being is called 'one who reaches Nibbaana after crossing half the life-time' (upahacca-parinibbaayii). (3) "Or, with exertion he attains the holy path for the overcoming of the higher fetters. Such a being is called 'one who reaches Nibbaana with exertion' (sasa”nkhaara-parinibbaayii). (4) "Or, without exertion he attains the holy path for the overcoming of the higher fetters. Such a being is called 'one who reaches Nibbaana without exertion' (asa”nkhaara-parinibbaayii). (5) "Or, after vanishing from the heaven of the Aviha-gods (s. Suddhaavaasa ), he appears in the heaven of the unworried (atappa) gods. After vanishing from there he appears in the heaven of the clearly-visible (Sudassa) gods, from there in the heaven of the clear- visioned (Sudassii) gods, from there in the heaven of the highest (akani.t.tha) gods. There he attains the holy path for the overcoming of the higher fetters. Such a being is called 'one who passes up- stream to the highest gods' (uddhamsota-akani.t.tha-gaamii)." ---------- N: As we have seen in sutta 17, there are five pure abodes (suddhaavaasa) belonging to the ruupa loka, the fine-material worlds, and these are: of the Aviha-gods, of the heaven of the unworried (Atappa) gods, of the heaven of the clearly-visible (Sudassa) gods, of the heaven of the clear-visioned (Sudassii) gods, of the heaven of the highest (Akani.t.tha) gods. In the book of Analysis, Analysis of the Heart of the Teaching (Ch 18), Age Limit, 1027, we read that the age limit of the Aviha devas is a thousand kappas, of the Atappa Devas two thousand kappas, of the Sudassa Devas four thousand kappas, of the Sudassii Devas eight thousand kappas, of the Akani.t.tha Devas sixteen thousand kappas. -------- Commentary to sutta 18: as to the first person: not having gone beyond half of the life-time or in the middle of his term, he eradicates defilements (reaches parinibbaana of the defilements, kilesa parinibbaana) at arahatship. N: He reaches arahatship in the middle of the term of life in a particular brahma plane. The lifespan in the Brahma worlds are extremely long. The subco states: having been reborn in aviha heaven and so on, there he has not reached half of the life term in that plane. ------- Co: as to the second person: he reaches arahatship after going beyond half of the life term (in the brahma plane where he was reborn). As to the third person: without application, without tiring himself, with ease (akilamanto sukhena). As to the fourth person: with application, tiring himself, with suffering. These four kinds of persons among the five are born in the the Pure Abodes, the heavens of the Suddhaavaasa. As to the fifth person: he ascends the stream (uddha.msoto) and goes to the heaven of the highest (akani.t.tha) devas. After he has been reborn in four of the Pure Abodes, beginning with the aviha plane (the first of the Pure Abodes), and after he has reached the akani.t.tha heaven, he attains parinibbaana there. The subco explains as to the stream: the stream of craving and the stream of the cycle. Having lived thousand kappas (aeons) in the Aviha Heaven, and not being able to reach arahatship, he goes to the Atappa Heaven. Having lived there two thousand kappas and not being able to reach arahatship, he goes to the Sudassa Heaven. Having lived there four thousand kappas and not being able to reach arahatship, he goes to the Sudassa Heaven. Having lived there eight thousand kappas and not being able to reach arahatship, he goes to the Akani.t.tha Heaven and there he reaches the highest Path (aggamagga). ------------ N: This sutta reminds us how difficult it is to eradicate all defilements. Even the anaagaami who has eradicated the five lower fetters (sa.myojana) of personality belief, doubt , clinging to rules and ritual (wrong practice), sensuous desire and ill-will, still has to eradicate the five higher fetters of craving for fine-material existence, craving for immaterial existence, conceit, restlessness and ignorance. He has to live for aeons, and human life is very insignificant compared to life in the brahma planes. Still, in this short human life we have an opportunity to develop right understanding of realities. This sutta encourages us and reminds us not to waste any opportunity for developing right understanding. ---------- Co: Anaagaamiisu aayuno majjha.m anatikkamitvaa antaraava kilesaparinibbaana.m arahatta.m patto antaraaparinibbaayii naama.... _______ Nina. #105247 From: "kanchuu2003" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:03 am Subject: Re: Foru Noble Truths! kanchuu2003 Dear Sharah! Thanks.. Will look into it and will return back.. Regards, Nitesh --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Kanchuu (Nitesh!), > > I knew I recognised your email add, but had to search to see that it was you, Nitesh, from Nepal: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60847 > > Good to see you again! Which name do people call you by? > > --- On Mon, 28/12/09, kanchuu2003 wrote: > >I wantd to clearify myself with the basics.. The For Noble Truths.. > > I want to begin with the first one.. > > 1.Life is a suffering. > > Please enlighten me with this 1st Noble truth in detail or forward me the link.. > ... > S: Seeing now is dukkha because it doesn't last and yet we cling to it. The same with all other conditioned realities. > > In addition to Nina's helpful message, see "Useful Posts" in the files section of DSG under "Noble Truths" for lots, lots more detail. Pls quote anything or ask any further questions on what you find there. > > Look forward to more discussions again! > > Metta > > Sarah > ======= > #105248 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Noble Truths! nilovg Dear Kanchuu, nice to see you again, Op 15-feb-2010, om 7:48 heeft kanchuu2003 het volgende geschreven: > Life is suffering! > > How do you break it into detail? -------- N: What is life? It is one moment of experiencing an object through one of the six doorways. At each moment there are citta, cetasika and ruupa. When there is seeing there of the world of colour or visible object. When there is hearing, there is the world of sound. Each world falls away immediately, it does not last. That is the meaning of dukkha inherent in all conditioned realities. Each reality arises and then falls away, it cannot be true happiness. This is the meaning of the first noble truth. See Vis. Ch XVI, 34 and following. Dukkha-dukkha is intrinsic suffering, bodily and mental painful feeling. Vipari.naama-dukkha is suffering in change: this is bodily and mental pleasant feeling which cause suffering when they change. Sa?nkhaara dukkha is the suffering due to formations. It dukkha inherent in all conditioned realities: their arising and falling away are dukkha, they cannot be of any refuge. ------- Nina. #105249 From: "kanchuu2003" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Noble Truths! kanchuu2003 Dear Nina, Thanks.. Could not find Vis. Ch XVI.. Any links.. And did not understand Sa"nkhaara dukkha? regards, Nitesh --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Kanchuu, > nice to see you again, > > Op 15-feb-2010, om 7:48 heeft kanchuu2003 het volgende geschreven: > > > Life is suffering! > > > > How do you break it into detail? > -------- > N: What is life? It is one moment of experiencing an object through > one of the six doorways. > At each moment there are citta, cetasika and ruupa. When there is > seeing there of the world of colour or visible object. When there is > hearing, there is the world of sound. Each world falls away > immediately, it does not last. That is the meaning of dukkha inherent > in all conditioned realities. Each reality arises and then falls > away, it cannot be true happiness. This is the meaning of the first > noble truth. > > See Vis. Ch XVI, 34 and following. Dukkha-dukkha is intrinsic > suffering, bodily and mental painful feeling. Vipari.naama-dukkha is > suffering in change: this is bodily and mental pleasant feeling which > cause suffering when they change. Sa"nkhaara dukkha is the suffering > due to formations. It dukkha inherent in all conditioned realities: > their arising and falling away are dukkha, they cannot be of any refuge. > ------- > Nina. > > > > > #105250 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Noble Truths! szmicio Dear Niteshm > And did not understand Sa"nkhaara dukkha? Venerable Nai Taja explains: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/teja1.htm Best wishes Lukas #105251 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Noble Truths! szmicio Dear Niteshm > > And did not understand Sa"nkhaara dukkha? sankhaara-dukkha is the understanding of eye and visible object. It seems that dukkha is only conventional, but that is not so. There are five khandhas, and when they are understood than the misery is understood. I think this is the meaning of sankhaara dukkha. The conditioned dhammas needs to be known. When we just ponder over ideas of misery, we cannot understand sankhara dukkha. viparinama-dukkha, this is non-satisfaction duo to rapid disolution of things. They change very fast and we cannot be happy of anything that we experience. dukkha of dukkha is what we call bhava and socati. This is the end of paticcasamupada. This can be more conventional. Best wishes Lukas #105252 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Four Noble Truths! szmicio Dear friends if I can add something: Venerable Nai Taja wrote: L: The understanding of this sankhara-dukkha, is very profound. I think this is the understanding that we get when conditioned dhammas are slowly slowly understood. Even on intelectual level when we learn "this is conditioned, we cannot change this, this is dukkha. Not me just dukkha. This is only dukkha that suffers". Than even on intelectual level the panna can grow. There was said that there is a path , but no one who follows. There is misery but no one who suffers. Best wishes Lukas #105253 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:58 pm Subject: FW: Dosa. Support from Phil jonoabb -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup-owner@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup-owner@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of philip Sent: 14 February 2010 18:08 To: dhammastudygroup-owner@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Dosa. Support from Phil Hi Lukas Thanks, and sorry about that. I intended to send it to the group. Sarah, I think I sent one to you by mistake that can be forwarded! Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Phil, > I will send your kind message I get off-list on the group. > > Phil write: > < Hi Lukas > > Sarah and Ken and Nina gave you good advice as always, it's gone, etc, no point in sorrowing on it, that just adds to the defilements. > > I would just like to add that what you did here is in line with the Buddha's instructions to his son Rahula - when we have done something that we know is harmful to ourself and others, we should tell our friends in Dhamma - and then resolve not to do it again, work towards that. Of course we will do it again, there are accumulated tendencies for that, but I think (as I've probably said many times) the resolution, the intention (in the conventional meaning of the word) has important conditioning power. The Buddha wouldn't tell his son to reflect methodically and tell others about bad behaviour if there wasn't a good reason for it. Good to note that the sutta in question (in MN) doesn't say we should tell others about our bad mental behaviour because there would be no end of that, it only applies to wrong action and wrong speech. So I would like to praise you for following the Buddha's instructions in a way that I rarely see anywhere in the internet Dhamma world! Congratulations!> > === > L: I appreciate this reminder very much. You are right we should not let things like this. What is kusala can be developed, each moment. I used to forget this very much. Thanks Phil. For reminding kusala can be developed. > > Best wishes > Lukas > #105254 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Dosa. Support from Phil sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, >: Thanks, and sorry about that. I intended to send it to the group. Sarah, I think I sent one to you by mistake that can be forwarded! ... S: You'll have seen that I assumed that. Actually, you probably did send them to the group, but recently we worked out that if you send messages from an email account that isn't subscribed (including a recently unsubscribed account!!), the posts somehow go to the individual recipients rather than the group. So if this happens to anyone, check the email address you're using is actually subscribed to DSG! Metta Sarah ========= #105255 From: Ken O Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dosa ashkenn2k Dear Lukas Could you understand cittas in future moments or could you hold on to cittas that are ceased in the past?? There is only the present moment.? Citta?arise in the present moment just that our sati and panna are not keen enough to be aware of it.? What we think about the future is thinking, what we think on our past is only sanna.? Live in the present moment. With metta Ken O #105256 From: Ken O Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >.... >S: And what exactly is the akusala vipaka in this matter? Was there any akusala vipaka in particular through the body-sense, eye-sense or ear-sense? > >Isn't the "Unpleasant matter" just thinking with dosa? >.... >>When panna arise to understand kamma vipaka of the senses, is there?no self to lose, no self to be afraid of.? Where is there material gain to be clung to, to hold on to.? It is just vipaka, another?paramatha dhammas :-) >.... >S: When you say material gain "is just vipaka", are you sure it isn't a conventional idea we have of vipaka? KO:? dosa is dosa, vipaka is vipaka.? Akusala vipaka only happen in paramatha level.? What we think of kusala vipaka like having a big car etc not paramtha, we are talking about?conventionally.??? So do you want to talk to me conventionally or paramatha dhamma because you are on one hand tell me about something about Jon leg and?the?theft, ?which I take it as conventional vipaka, then now you talk to me about vipaka in paramatha.? Not very fruitful discussion, coud we stick to a one way of talking or it never ends.? >... >S: Yes. Winning a lottery doesn't necessarily mean more kusala vipaka in our senses and losing one's job doesn't necessarily mean more akusala vipaka in our senses, does it? KO:? same as above >p.s wishing you well with your job and the matter! KO:? that is only just thinking.? Only when we have a firm believe vipaka at paramatha level, there is no concern about the future or what will happen next.?? With metta Ken O #105257 From: Ken O Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Jon >J: The Vis passage is actually about the development of samatha, specifically for followers of the Buddha who have already developed samatha to a certain level and who have the potential to attain jhana in the present lifetime. > >But I do not think there is a method in the sense of things ('practices' ) to be done which a person can follow and thereby progress towards jhana. What is described in the text are things that are meaningful only for a person of the appropriate level of development, but which cannot be 'done' by someone who is not of that level of attainment. KO:? I?know its about understanding.? That is why I keep emphasising on?what are conditions for one to embark on the 40 samadhi subject.??But could you?denied?there is no method or practise.? It is written very descriptively in Visud, things like eights ways in recollecting death, sevenfold skill in learning, there were detail instructions.?? Detail instructions?is a method of?practise just like a guide book on how to use our electronic equipment.? >> ============ === >> KO: Jon this I know there is always a danger of kilesa., we are not talking about subtle kilesa here. We are talking whether there is a samadhi in Buddha teaching. If not Buddhaghosa will not go on length to describe it in Visud. Yes there is, but for who,for what purpose, and on what conditions, practitionars should refer seriously on what is written in Visud. We cannot denied its existence but we could ask ourselves, for what and for who. Still, if there is no panna, there is no development. >> ============ === > >J: Yes, samatha requires panna for its development, but panna of a kind different from the panna that is required for the development of awareness/insight. KO:? True I know there is different kind of panna. >> ============ === > >J: To my understanding, samadhi without panna will not result in the development of samatha and thus would not condition rebirth in the rupa planes. KO:? sorry I shortcut my method I mean without Buddha panna, >As regards the panna that is required for the development of samatha, we need to understand where this fits into the picture. Concentrating on a kasina does not require panna, nor could it be a condition for panna to arise (panna of what?). KO:?? AS talks about panna of differentiating?kusala and akusala.? To me that is only part of the story.? It should?more than that, it is also panna to understand the danger of sense objects.??Thus?leading to?a withrawal of sense object to attain jhanas.? One does not need Buddha dhamma to withdraw from sense object because?impermanence and suffering?are visible but not anatta.??Not all samadhi objects lead to jhanas.???? With metta Ken O #105258 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Dear Nina , you wrote: Yes that is with most of the points raised here. But I took note of some of your points and we shall see how to bring them in. D: just one point came into my mind what we cannot discuss among ourselves : how does Khun Sujin advise her students about studying teachings of other Dhamma schools like those of Ajahn Cha and Ajahn Buddhadasa ? with Metta Dieter #105259 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka moellerdieter Hello Alex, Jon and all.. you wrote: 'Thank you for a sutta quote. It does clearly states that 1) virtue first, it then supports 2) Concentration THE CONCENTRATION allows one to 3) See things as they are. So ultimately, the real panna is derived from samadhi as proximate cause. Similar is in VsM. First half of the book is devoted to virtue and concentration. D: yes , one supported by the other I have to admit that years ago I had difficulties as well to accept the sila -samadhi -panna sequence of the Path, arguing that no training would be undergone without a certain level of 'right understanding' , hence a path starting with the factors 3,4,5 , i.e. moral /sila makes no sense in lack of the 'why ' , which would only delivered (1,2) after passing furthermore 6,7,8 . It took me some time to see that a mundane Path understanding is assumed (in particular about kamma) and the sila, samadhi , panna training is designed for the aim of entrance to the (Holy/Supramundane) Noble Path . I found interesting that seemingly only in one sutta ( see my mails to Jon) the path factors of the sequence were specified ( spoken by a Bhikkhuni and later approved by the Buddha) , whereas references to the sila , samadhi, panna training are plenty. Possible I.M.H.O. is also 2,3,4,5 (kusala kamma ) - 6,7,8 - 1 , I mean as long as we keep in mind that virtue provides the base for concentration , and concentration for wisdom . Misunderstandings occur - as I understand the constant repetition of panna as a base for any action in some messages- when right understanding is sought to be perfected without its proper means , i.e.the sila , samadhi panna training . The eight spoke wheel is a good reminder for the interrelation of the path factors. DN 16: (trs Sister Vajira and Francis Story ) "Such and such is virtue; such and such is concentration; and such and such is wisdom. 9 Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of concentration when it is fully developed by virtuous conduct; great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of wisdom when it is fully developed by concentration; utterly freed from the taints 10 of lust, becoming, and ignorance is the mind that is fully developed in wisdom." (9: Virtue (sila), concentration (samadhi), and wisdom (pa??a) are the three divisions of the Noble Eightfold Path. Our text stresses again and again the importance of a full development of all three for final liberation.) ' with Metta Dieter #105260 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 15-feb-2010, om 18:05 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: just one point came into my mind what we cannot discuss among > ourselves : > how does Khun Sujin advise her students about studying teachings of > other Dhamma schools like those of Ajahn Cha and Ajahn Buddhadasa ? ------ N: Once she said: any teaching is good that can help me to understand more the truth of realities. This is actually: the truth of the reality appearing at the present moment. In this matter she will not think of persons, just of paramattha dhammas. Nina. #105261 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: 'Once she said: any teaching is good that can help me to understand more the truth of realities. This is actually: the truth of the reality appearing at the present moment. In this matter she will not think of persons, just of paramattha dhammas. D: thanks , Nina .. in general -I assume -it means 'knowledge and clear-seeing according to actuality ' (?) Students from other schools however may consider that such teaching would mistake a mean for the aim ,as being only the condition for disentchantment (... and disentchantment is the condition for detachment, detachment is the condition for liberation , and liberation is the condition of exhausation : S.N. XII 23 .... in other suttas dispassion is followed after disentchantment before coming to detachment). with Metta Dieter #105262 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:01 pm Subject: Dhutanga and Noble Eightfold Path. truth_aerator >"Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hello Alex, Jon and all.. > > you wrote: > > 'Thank you for a sutta quote. It does clearly states that > 1) virtue first, it then supports > 2) Concentration > THE CONCENTRATION allows one to 3) See things as they are. > So ultimately, the real panna is derived from samadhi as proximate >cause. > Similar is in VsM. First half of the book is devoted to virtue and >concentration. > > > > D: yes , one supported by the other > I have to admit that years ago I had difficulties as well to accept >the sila -samadhi -panna sequence of the Path, arguing that no >training would be undergone without a certain level of 'right >understanding' , Hello Dieter, Jon, all, Of course some knowledge is required for all steps of the way. One must know what actions are good, which are bad. What is to be done, what should not be done. One needs to know the purpose of The Way, and correct application of mental training. There should also be right view about right view. With all of the above said, however, it does NOT mean that all one does is to study and one day the awakening, dhutanga practices, meditation, etc will "just have happened". Preliminary Study isn't that much. It is possible to condense the bare-essence of the rules and teachings into few pages , and certainly it is possible to read all you need to know in few months. After this, training is required. People here claim to take VsM as authoritative. Great. "4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats. "Thirteen kinds of ascetic practices have been allowed by the Blessed One to clansmen who have given up the things of the flesh and, regardless of body and life, are desirous of undertaking a practice in conformity [with their aim]. They are: i. the refuse-rag-wearer's practice, ii. the triple-robe-wearer's practice, iii. the alms-food-eater's practice, iv. the house-to-house-seeker's practice, v. the one-sessioner's practice, vi. the bowl-food-eater's practice, vii. the later-food-refuser's practice, viii. the forest-dweller's practice, ix. the tree-root-dweller's practice, x. the open-air-dweller's practice, xi. the charnel-ground-dweller's practice, xii. the any-bed-user's practice, xiii. the sitter's practice. " -VsM II, 2 The 4NT are the heart of Buddhism and some suttas show how one realizes them. Note how dhutanga practices could be helpful to achieve the realization of 4NT. They help to keep hindrances at bay so that Jhana happens easier. Dhutanga practices as described in VsM also show that there IS intentional action (dhutanga practices). The path isn't limited to "reading books and considering what is read" as a sole condition for wisdom. It may gave a PhD, but not panna. [after 4th Jhana]""With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance." - DN2 (see fruits of contemplative life starting with 4 Jhanas) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html ""Now, there is the case where a monk ? quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities ? enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation ? internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain ? as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress ? he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.066.than.html With metta, Alex #105263 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:22 am Subject: Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your detailed responses (104878, 104919). > S: I'd be interested to hear you comments (or anyone else's )on this topic. pt: I'm not sure as there are seemingly contradictory statements on both sides. Taking your position on the matter, if we agree that many, many lifetimes are necessary to develop all the accumulations and paramis, then it would be logical that parami of wisdom would also gradually develop higher and higher. I mean, it doesn't make much sense to me that it would be an exception and not develop (beyond paccaya pariggaha nana) until the last life. Especially considering that panna is pretty much the deciding factor of the development, like in terms of what you say: > S: Usually when we make aspirations or vows in "real-life" they are as likely to be lobha as anything else - wishing for some kind of result! pt: So, to me it seems that bodhisatta's wisdom would already have to be highly developed if he's to keep developing based on aspirations in kusala direction, otherwise, he'd be developing in akusala direction as there would be no discerning between a/kusala aspirations, i.e. he'd be just "wishing for some kind of result" as you say. Finally, there's that condition that before bodhisatta aspiration, he must be capable of becoming an arahant in that very life, what to me would mean that he's already a cula-sotapanna of sorts, if not higher - i.e. he's already assured of becoming an arahant, not just sotapanna, which would again mean that his wisdom is already very highly developed. Those are three main points that confuse me regarding your position. When it comes to the other position, there are also a few confusing matters - the fixed destiny issue, the aspiration preventing progress beyond a certain point and how does that work, etc. Anyway, here are a few more references that came to my attention, perhaps you can make more sense of them than I can: ===== SN 25.1 (transl. by Thanissaro Bhikkhu): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.001.than.html At Savatthi. "Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable. "One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening." ===== pt: So here dhamma-follower and faith-follower seem pretty much the same as cula-sotapanna. In Kathavatthu, sections XIII.3 amd XIII.4 deal with fixed destiny/assurance. Section XIII.4 in particular deals with bodhisattas. But I can't really understand what they are saying and who's saying what. > S: By now, you've probably listened to many audio recordings on it too. pt: Which audio recordings on it do you mean? Best wishes pt #105264 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The theft ptaus1 Dear Sarah and KenO, Thanks for your comments. Best wishes pt > KO: Panna is always dispassionate. One felt difficult because there is a "self" image to conform to society norms. Honestly, in such situations, I usually remain silent when people question me why I am so "dispassionate" or unfeeling. It is our citta that matters, we are alone in our refuge in our developement. If others cannot understand or think likewise of us, that are their accumulations. What can we do? #105265 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:57 am Subject: Re: explaining anatta & meditation ptaus1 Hi Alex, > A: The phrases "develop understanding" better be understood as an encouragement. No "one" can control the arising of understanding. Sure. What can be done is planting the causes, though none of this is done by any Self. It is all conditioned. But it *does* happen. Awakening will not occur if, speaking conventionally, "one does not do anything". pt: I agree in the sense that "planting the causes" is also the arising of awareness. E.g. that very arising in the present moment is what plants causes for the arising of awareness in some moment in the the future. So, I agree when you say that this planting cannot be done by any self. In practice of course, it's hard to tell the difference. many times I'm almost certain I'm doing the right thing by reading/meditating, but in retrospect it turns out to be wishful thinking, so akusala. > In meditation it is the same. No 'one' can "force" or "control" anything to arise or stop something arisen from being arisen. However certain conditions can be planted that will result in spontaneous and un-willed by any Self, certain states to arise. pt: This I don't quite understand "certain conditions can be planted", unless you mean when kusala awareness arises during meditation, that is the actual "planting". > A: As to Sati, a very important cetasika. Like other qualities, sati can be of many degrees. Giving Dana to a pujjhana vs a Buddha, are both acts of Dana - however one act is incalculably more kusala than another. Stealing $10 vs $10 Billion are both akusala action of stealing. However the kammic result will be of different degrees. > Similar case is with sati. Sati in or after 4th Jhana is of a different quality and strength then everyday sati. It is like comparing the illumination of the super powered flashlight vs candle light. Another simile is trying to dig the earth with an excavator vs with a spoon. > In the suttas it is said that sati is purified in 4th Jhana. So Jhanic states do give a powerful boost to Sati. And to reach Jhana one must develop enough panna as well, so it is not a "dumb way" or "useless" path. pt: I tend to agree that with samatha development sati (as well as calm, etc) do seem to strengthen. The question remains though (what I think you are saying) whether increased sati, calm, etc, help (condition) panna to develop in terms of insight. I'm not quite sure about that. While strong sati certainly helps panna develop in terms of samatha and withdrawing from the senses, I'm not sure how much it helps it in terms of insight itself. I mean, if panna can be of different kinds - conceptual, samatha and insight kinds, would that mean that sati, calm, concentration and other cetasikas can also be of different kinds (so not just different intensities)? Which would then mean that a strong sati of samatha kind has very little to do with strong sati of insight kind? I don't know, just wondering here. Best wishes pt #105266 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: explaining anatta ptaus1 Dear Nina, Thanks for your comments. > N: It is of great help what Kh Sujin is doing: bringing people back > to this moment, with practical examples. We cannot deny that there is > seeing now, and did we do anything to make it arise? It arose because > of its own conditions, it does not belong to anyone. We see some else > suffering, in distress. There are different moments within us: > moments of aversion, sadness, but also a sincere wish to relieve > suffering. Akusala citta has its conditions for its arising and so > has kusala citta. Nobody can control them, they have arisen already > before we realise it. > In this way more understanding of anattaa can be developed. JUst > daily life. When we think of conceptual understanding, for me it > complicates matters. Conceptual is understood differently by > different people. > It is true what you say about the mixture of ultimate and conceptual, > I have heard this from others before. People stumble over this. But > when we hear: we should develop understanding, it can be seen as an > encouragement to do so. At the same time (hopefully) people have > understood intellectually that it cannot be done on command. > It is 'Western' to approach matters in a logical way. But it does not > always work in practice. pt: I agree very much about bringing the attention back to the present moment as well as about encouragement to develop understanding seen not as a thing to do in terms of the future, but again as means of reminding us about the present moment. I also like what Jon wrote to Dieter in recent posts 105181,2: > J: If the present moment is kusala, there is right effort; if the present moment is akusala, there is wrong effort. > There is no in-between or transitional stage of right effort for yet-to-occur kusala (a sort of equivalent to the conventional notion of trying/practising to do something properly while mostly falling short of achieving that). > J: To put it another way, the development of metta and the 'arousing of will' to develop metta are one and the same thing, except that the latter emphasises the mental factor of energy that accompanies the development of metta. > Otherwise one is postulating a separate category of kusala that consists of the 'arousing of will' in respect of the different kinds of kusala. Best wishes pt #105267 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) ptaus1 Hi Jon, > J: The conditions for the arising of panna were clearly spelt out by the Buddha. They are the 4 things beginning with 'association with the right person' that have been mentioned so often here. None of these 4 prerequisites are *things to do*. > > Any given activity can be done with or without panna, with or without kusala, so no activity can ever be said to be a prerequisite, unless we clearly understand that when we speak of an activity we are in fact referring to kusala moments of consciousness only, using the activity as a convenient manner of expression to represent those moments of kusala consciousness. pt: In that sense, what you are saying is that the four conditions/activities expressed conventionally are not the actual cause of kusala - the actual cause (condition) of present kusala (like panna for example) is - what? Kusala dhammas that happened in the past, right? In that sense, what is the purpose of singling out any particular activity - I mean it seems as if you are saying that conventional 'association with the right person' is more conducive to arising of kusala than for example conventional seclusion (i.e. being physically alone). If both are just conventional activities that can ultimately be both kusala or akusala, then why single out one over the other? Ultimately there is no difference between the two activities, or is there? Thanks. Best wishes pt #105268 From: "ptaus1" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:54 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ptaus1 Hi Jon (KenO and Nina), Thanks for your reply. > J: Awareness, no matter how weak, is always awareness of an individual dhamma. Whatever the dhamma that awareness takes as its object (and this will be a dhamma not of our choosing), that dhamma is experienced as just that dhamma, even if the difference between those moments of awareness and moments without awareness is barely perceptible. > At the beginning level, awareness experiences the dhamma either as just the experiencing of something (a nama) or as something that does not experience anything (a rupa). That's what I meant when I said visible object as distinct from seeing consciousness. I did not mean to imply that there was already awareness of both visible object and seeing consciousness. So there is already some thinking involved in what I said. pt: I'm still trying to understand this in detail. When awareness knows a dhamma, there seem to be several ways in which this happens (perhaps depending on level of development) which don't have to be mutually exclusive and can have varying intensity/depth: 1. knowing which dhamma is experienced as distinct from some other dhammas - i.e. knowing that what I just became aware of is dosa (or whatever name one gives it), not lobha, nor viriya, etc. 2. knowing that the particular dhamma is kusala or akusala 3. knowing the anatta characteristic of that dhamma 4. knowing the arising and falling of that dhamma. Please add if I missed anything. From what you, Nina and KenO said, it seems number 4 definitely belongs to stages of insight and pativedha. I'm not sure about number 3 - can recognition of anatta of a dhamma happen in patipati? I would think so because even the most basic realisation conventionally expressed as "hey I'm angry right now" requires a little bit of stepping away from the actual anger (so a little bit of seeing anatta in it), otherwise there'd be total identification with the anger and one would just go on being angry without realizing it until the anger passes. Likewise I'm not sure about the first two - are they patipati yet or no? I mean, even in the most basic example above, if there's recognition of anger as a distinct happening/reality, that means that there was at least one moment in which awareness of dosa happened even if one doesn't know it's name is dosa, and even if afterwards comes a lot of thinking about what was experienced, that one moment still happened. And when this happens it's usually very clear that anger is not a beneficial thing, so akusala. So would this one moment of direct recognition of anger/dosa already be patipati? Thanks. Best wishes pt #105269 From: Lukas Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dosa szmicio Dear Ken O, >Could you understand cittas in future moments or could you hold on to >cittas that are ceased in the past? There is only the present moment. >Citta arise in the present moment just that our sati and panna are not >keen enough to be aware of it. >What we think about the future is thinking, what we think on our past is >only sanna. Live in the present moment. L: Yes, but this is extremaly hard to do this. Again yesterday I had a big quarrel. A big one. Now I feel very bad of it and of what I said. This was very strong kamma-pattha. I said a lot of bad words. Now I get also very agitated and angry of that, always when I think of it. I think of concepts and get anger more. What can I do to have less anger? Best wishes Lukas #105270 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:06 pm Subject: The 3 Signs... bhikkhu.sama... Friends: The Three Undeniable Global Properties: Q: Is the body and all external form, lasting or transient? A: Transient Q: Is feeling, pleasant or not, lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is experienced perceptions lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is the mental constructions lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is naked awareness = consciousness lasting or transient? A: Transient! Q: Is the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind, lasting or transient? Q: Is form, sound, smell, taste, touch and thought, lasting or transient? Q: Is solidity, fluidity, heat, motion, and space, lasting or transient? Answer: All these are Transient!, Impermanent!, Temporary!, Fleeting! Q: Is what is transient, happiness or suffering? A: Decay is Suffering! Q: Is what is transient, ever changing and therefore frustrating pain suitable to be regarded as: "This is Mine, This I Am, This is Me" "This I can Keep, This I can control, This I Posses, This is my Self" ... ??? Answer: No certainly Not ...!!!, since what is self must be keepable, same, constant, controllable, under one's own full power, and thus pleasant... As all these phenomena are none of this, they cannot ever be self! Seeing this, understanding this, comprehending this, the Noble Learner is disgusted by all form, disgusted by all sensing, by all physical, by all mental. Being thus disgusted, one experiences an opening disillusion... The veil is off. Without illusions, the mind is fully released and one immediately knows: This mental liberation is final and irreversible. This - exactly this state - is called Nibb ana, experienced is this very life ... <..> Life always involves Suffering and is inevitably Sorrowful! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya II 244-5 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #105271 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, --- On Mon, 15/2/10, Ken O wrote: >S: When you say material gain "is just vipaka", are you sure it isn't a conventional idea we have of vipaka? KO:? dosa is dosa, vipaka is vipaka.? Akusala vipaka only happen in paramatha level.? What we think of kusala vipaka like having a big car etc not paramtha, we are talking about?conventionally .??? .... S: Exactly! That was my point, probably not expressed clearly, for which I apologise. When I mentioned a couple of incidents and you mentioned one of your own, you referred to all these as being "vipaka". I was merely trying to point out that this is only a conventional idea of vipaka, not the paramattha dhamma. If there's any further disagreement, perhaps you can add it to your KK list of topics:). Metta Sarah ====== #105272 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: eightfold Path. Was: Nyanatiloka jonoabb Hi Dieter (105236) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > ... > Jon, first you asked for the source regarding the divison of the Path factors in the 3 fold training which I provided and then you wrote: > > 'Thanks for the sutta reference. However, the division of the factors of the NEP into sila, samadhi and panna in that sutta is not explained there as being a sequencing of the practice.' > =============== J: Thanks for giving this context. I should perhaps explain what I meant by a sequencing of the practice. There is the idea that a certain level of sila is a prerequisite for the development of samatha, and that a certain level of samatha is in turn a prerequisite for the development of insight. When I said in my previous post that the division of the factors of the NEP into sila, samadhi and panna in that sutta is not explained there as being a sequencing of the practice, it is this particular idea that I was referring to. > =============== > I think the quoted sutta provides you with that explanation , especially > snip : > 'Bhikkhus, to the virtuous, virtues beome the cause for right concentration. When there is right concentration it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision to see things as they really are. When there is knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, it becomes the cause for turning away and disenchantment. When there is turning away and disenchantment it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision of release. Bhikkhus, it is like a tree endowed with branches and foliage. Its shoots grow completely, the bark grows completely, the sap wood grows completely, the heartwood too grows completely Bhikkhus, in the same manner, to the virtuous, virtues become the cause for right concentration. When there is right concentration it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision to see things as they really are. When there is knowledge and vision to see things as they really are, it becomes the cause for turning away and disenchantment. When there is turning away and disenchantment it becomes the cause for knowledge and vision of release.' > =============== I do not read this passage as saying or implying that a certain level of sila or samatha is a prerequisite for the development of awarenessinsight. What it says, I think, is that for a person of well-developed sila that sila is a basis or support for the development of samatha, and similarly for a person of well-developed samatha that samatha is a basis or support for the development of awareness/insight. (This of course I would accept.) The sequencing idea seems to be another way of saying that sila and samatha of a certain level are prerequisites for the development of awareness. However, I don't think there's any basis for this in the texts. Jon #105273 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:02 am Subject: Re: Dhutanga, Sila and practice in VsM jonoabb Hi Alex (105237) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > Excellent point. One studies the proper behaviour (such as outline in FIRST 2 chapters of VsM) and then one does it. So "wisely reflecting" doesn't remain in theory only, impotent and unable to provide tangible and practical result. > =============== I suspect our views differ here. To my understanding, "wisely reflecting" refers to the arising of satipatthana. Now this is not something that one can just decide to "do". Awareness arises only to the extent that (a) it has been developed/accumulated in the past and (b) there are conditions for its current arising, such as the 4 factors we have mentioned and discussed before. > =============== > In VsM, Buddhaghosa spends ~53 pages (pg5-58) talking about Sila/Virtue, proper behaviour of monks. (Ch1) > > Ascetic practices (dhutanga ) for 27 pages (58-85). (Ch2) > Samadhi takes ~ 282 pages (pg85-368) > Panna ~306 pages (435-741) > > Sila + Samadhi part outnumber Panna - and are mentioned FIRST. \ > 362 pages vs 306 pages. > > In any case, Ven. Buddhaghosa has spend considerable time talking about sila, dhutanga practices and yes, Samadhi. > > Are some students here so capable that they can dispense with Sila and Samadhi development as explained in VsM? > =============== I think you have misunderstood. Nobody here is saying that sila and samadhi should not be developed. The question being discussed is whether, according to the Buddha's teaching, a certain level of sila and/or samadhi is a prerequisite for beginning levels of awareness. That is to say, whether the development of awareness can begin without the need to first attain a particular level of sila and/or samatha. My understanding is that there is no particular level of sila or samatha required for the development of awareness to begin. However, that does not mean that I ignore sila and samatha. All kinds of kusala are worth developing, at every opportunity. I thought I had clarified this long ago ... ;-)) Jon #105274 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dosa nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 16-feb-2010, om 9:06 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Again yesterday I had a big quarrel. A big one. Now I feel very bad > of it and of what I said. This was very strong kamma-pattha. ------ N: Don't trouble yourself so much about what you did or said. One may speak harsh words, but this is not necessarily akusala kamma patha. It may be just akusala citta. Even the sotaapanna has not eradicated harsh speech. And he won't have an unhappy rebirth because of harsh speech. But it is good to see the disadvantage of akusala and develop kusala. Nina. #105275 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dosa szmicio Dear Nina, Could you please say more about kamma-pattha? I think my behaviour was very bad because I said a lot of bad words, this wasnt only harsh speach, but I intended to hurt other person. I used very strong words. This surely will bring akusala vipaka to me. And also give me more bad kamma in the future. My best wishes Lukas > N: Don't trouble yourself so much about what you did or said. One may > speak harsh words, but this is not necessarily akusala kamma patha. > It may be just akusala citta. Even the sotaapanna has not eradicated > harsh speech. And he won't have an unhappy rebirth because of harsh > speech. > But it is good to see the disadvantage of akusala and develop kusala. > Nina. #105276 From: Ken O Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sravakas don't have the realization of emptiness of phenomenas? ashkenn2k Dear Sarah Honestly,?the matter about attanuditthi and space,?even matter like whether there is a practise with Jon, are not issue at all :-), there are just passing issues, does not have an impact in?developing?the present moment.?? Also honestly, I have no topic.? Cheers Ken O >? >Dear Ken O, > >--- On Mon, 15/2/10, Ken O wrote: >>S: When you say material gain "is just vipaka", are you sure it isn't a conventional idea we have of vipaka? > >KO:? dosa is dosa, vipaka is vipaka.? Akusala vipaka only happen in paramatha level.? What we think of kusala vipaka like having a big car etc not paramtha, we are talking about?conventionally .??? >.... >S: Exactly! That was my point, probably not expressed clearly, for which I apologise. When I mentioned a couple of incidents and you mentioned one of your own, you referred to all these as being "vipaka". I was merely trying to point out that this is only a conventional idea of vipaka, not the paramattha dhamma. > >If there's any further disagreement, perhaps you can add it to your KK list of topics:). > >Metta > >Sarah >====== #105277 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dosa szmicio Dear Nina, For sure if you would hear what I did say and the way I said it, you would not think of me good anymore. This is what I am thinking now. Best wishes Lukas > Could you please say more about kamma-pattha? I think my behaviour was very bad because I said a lot of bad words, this wasnt only harsh speach, but I intended to hurt other person. I used very strong words. > This surely will bring akusala vipaka to me. And also give me more bad kamma in the future. #105278 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dosa nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 16-feb-2010, om 11:34 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Could you please say more about kamma-pattha? I think my behaviour > was very bad because I said a lot of bad words, this wasnt only > harsh speach, but I intended to hurt other person. I used very > strong words. > > This surely will bring akusala vipaka to me. And also give me > more bad kamma in the future. ------- N: You may be angry and say: I will kill you, but you did not really make a plan to kill him. Just strong dosa, temporarily overwhelmed by dosa. Nina. #105279 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: other teachers, and siila. nilovg Dear Dieter Op 15-feb-2010, om 20:55 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > D: thanks , Nina .. in general -I assume -it means 'knowledge and > clear-seeing according to actuality ' (?) -------- N: Development of right understanding in accordance with the teachings. ------ D: Students from other schools however may consider that such teaching would mistake a mean for the aim.. ------- N: Yes, possible. Different people say so many things. I cannot answer all mails now, but I read what you said about siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. There is for teaching purposes in the Vis. this sequence. It does not have to do with a certain order. Vis. includes all types of siila in Ch I, even lokuttara citta. I heard a recording in English: Kh Sujin said that the teachings are very subtle. We have to consider each word, also siila. Usually siila is conduct through body and speech, but also citta can be included. Kusala citta is siila. Daana is siila by way of generosity. Whole some thinking is samatha and it can be included in siila. All types of kusala citta are siila of different levels. At the moment of understanding a reality, there is siila. The citta is kusala citta since there is accumulation of understanding from hearing the Dhamma and considering. Whenever there is pa~n~naa (of the level of satipa.t.thaana) there is siila and samatha. Thus, there is higher siila, higher concentration and higher understanding. Commentary to the Mahaaparinibbaanasutta (transl by Yang-Gyu An, as the Buddha's Last Days, PTS): Ch 1, 12: deals with the Buddha's repetition of: such is siila, such is concentration, such is wisdom. the path: maggacitta and result is phalacitta. Here this is samaadhi that is lokuttara, accompanying maggacitta and phalacitta. We have to be careful, because sometimes lokuttara samaadhi is referred to. The same is said about wisdom Nina. #105280 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 nilovg Dear pt, Op 16-feb-2010, om 8:54 heeft ptaus1 het volgende geschreven: > if there's recognition of anger as a distinct happening/reality, > that means that there was at least one moment in which awareness of > dosa happened even if one doesn't know it's name is dosa, and even > if afterwards comes a lot of thinking about what was experienced, > that one moment still happened. And when this happens it's usually > very clear that anger is not a beneficial thing, so akusala. So > would this one moment of direct recognition of anger/dosa already > be patipati? ------ N: Then Kh S usually asks: is it still you who is angry? We know the answer. Before the stages of insight there may just be a beginning to become familiar with different characteristics. This point was my first point when I entered this list. I thought: not possible to be aware of dosa but I was then corrected. True: if there is no beginning, when will it be known? I would not wonder when exactly it is pa.tipatti. I think not so soon. Nina. #105281 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dosa sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, (Phil & all), --- On Tue, 16/2/10, Lukas wrote: >Could you please say more about kamma-pattha? I think my behaviour was very bad because I said a lot of bad words, this wasnt only harsh speach, but I intended to hurt other person. I used very strong words. This surely will bring akusala vipaka to me. And also give me more bad kamma in the future. ... S: Instead of thinking about the results for *me* and *my* future etc, can you not find a way to show some kindness and generosity to the person you spoke so harshly to? Perhaps a gift such as a nice card or some assistance with unpleasant chores. At such times, I like to make up as soon as possible - make some good happen for the other person, instead of dwelling on *poor me* and *my vipaka*. When there's metta and kindness, no thought of oneself at all. Just an idea.... None of us like our accumulated kilesa (defilements), but continuing to cling to an idea of *me*, *my dosa*, *my defilements* just adds to the heap. As Phil pointed out, there can be wise reflection on the harm of such speech before, during and after it's spoken, but if it's just sorrow, regret and clinging to self, it's worse than useless. ....and what's the reality appearing now? It's not a matter of *trying to be in the present* or *trying to know the present reality*, because that's just more self-clinging. Instead, there can be understanding of what appears very naturally at this very moment, without any thought of trying or *me* at all.... Appreciating your sincere questions and courage to raise all these heart-felt issues, Lukas. I'm sure you help many friends here in the process. It's helpful for me to consider further with you as well. The problems, i.e the kilesa, are common to us all, rest assured! Metta Sarah ======= #105282 From: "sarah" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dosa sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > >So this is better to stay with present moment now? > > ... > > S: What other moment is there? > > L: Always there is what there is. But this is so hard to be at present. > Understanding grows so slowly. > > You said: Always back to citta now. > But this is so hard. I am forgetful. I enjoy pleasant life and dislike if there is a pain. I prefer to live with stories. ... S: Yes, You are summarising the Buddha's teachings. This is why he taught the 4 Noble Truths. Only one path.... ..... > > I remeber your old reminders for me, this took me really to the present. I miss those few, so natural moments of yoniso manasikara. .... S: This is why the Buddha stressed that even the raft, even right understanding, shouldn't be clung to, otherwise we get stuck, it doesn't develop. The path is that of detachment, not attachment. Any wise attention or understanding has gone. Understand now whatever appears, whether it be seeing, regret, anxiety, attachment, hardness or anything else. Otherwise it's self selecting objects again, trying to have more awareness. When you kindly help and encourage other friends here or at home, then there's no thought of yourself or of lack of progress is there? I've really appreciated your series on D.O. and other topics and kind posts to everyone, Lukas. You've reflected very wisely on the Teachings and can help us all. "Patience, Courage & Good Cheer", as Azita and K.Sujin would say! Metta Sarah ====== #105283 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dosa szmicio Dear Sarah, Thank you for your kind support. > None of us like our accumulated kilesa (defilements), but continuing to cling to an idea of *me*, *my dosa*, *my defilements* just adds to the heap. As Phil pointed out, there can be wise reflection on the harm of such speech before, during and after it's spoken, but if it's just sorrow, regret and clinging to self, it's worse than useless. > > ....and what's the reality appearing now? It's not a matter of *trying to be in the present* or *trying to know the present reality*, because that's just more self-clinging. Instead, there can be understanding of what appears very naturally at this very moment, without any thought of trying or *me* at all.... L: For sure you're right. But today I realised that there is so less yoniso manasikara moments in my life, What can I do to have it more? - I thought. And then I tried to listen to Khun Sujin and nothing had appeared. All the same. Best wishes Lukas #105284 From: "Lukas" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:50 pm Subject: Listening to music szmicio Dear Sarah, Nina and friends, When I am listening to music I am getting lost in concepts. Imagined world. This made me very agitated. Lost in concepts. This takes me out of panna and awarness. This makes me more going in concepts. And I forget Dhamma. I had this habit to liten to music and I cannot stop it. If there is natural way of development is it also listening to a music? Best wishes Lukas #105285 From: Ken O Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dosa ashkenn2k Dear Lukas Where are the bad words now?? Stop thinking about it, it only exist when you think about it.? And it is gone.? What is the use of thinking about it.?? Always return to dhamma.? Why?? Because dhamma is real, not self.? It arise because of conditions.?? The way?to develop more patience, more metta is the understanding that whatever dosa that arise.? <> Stop thinking how "I".????Stop thinking in terms of self, beings, words, names,?live your daily life as dhammas and not concepts. Live in terms?paramathas dhammas even though it is conceptual for us now.?? In future, if you are angry, just remember, it is just another reality, another dhamma, another nama.? Slowly and surely, dosa will be lesser.? this is the natural way, and?not keep thinking about?finding a?solution or a?quick fix.? The solution is at this moment, this reality.? Listen more to the audio clippings.? It really serve as a daily reminder.? The more you listen, the more it condition you to live in terms of dhammas.? What I tell you above,?is base on my personal experience.??It really works for me and I hope it does for you.?? Honestly, it takes me a long time to understand ?what A. Sujin means by?"Seeing sees".? I thought I understand it when I first heard of it, then I realise, how foolish I was.? I am not seeing.? And honestly, I still learning to "Seeing sees"? because?dhamma is very deep.? . With metta Ken O ?--------------------------------- Dear Ken O, >Could you understand cittas in future moments or could you hold on to >cittas that are ceased in the past? There is only the present moment. >Citta arise in the present moment just that our sati and panna are not >keen enough to be aware of it. >What we think about the future is thinking, what we think on our past is >only sanna. Live in the present moment. L: Yes, but this is extremaly hard to do this. Again yesterday I had a big quarrel. A big one. Now I feel very bad of it and of what I said. This was very strong kamma-pattha. I said a lot of bad words. Now I get also very agitated and angry of that, always when I think of it. I think of concepts and get anger more. What can I do to have less anger? Best wishes Lukas #105286 From: Ken O Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: explaining anatta & meditation ashkenn2k Dear pt Sati is make stronger by panna and not the other way round.? There was a Abhidhamma text on this.? I forget the reference already.??? Also if sati makes panna stronger, then Brahmas would have become enlighted.?? With metta Ken O > > >Hi Alex, > >> A: The phrases "develop understanding" better be understood as an encouragement. No "one" can control the arising of understanding. Sure. What can be done is planting the causes, though none of this is done by any Self. It is all conditioned. But it *does* happen. Awakening will not occur if, speaking conventionally, "one does not do anything". > >pt: I agree in the sense that "planting the causes" is also the arising of awareness. E.g. that very arising in the present moment is what plants causes for the arising of awareness in some moment in the the future. So, I agree when you say that this planting cannot be done by any self. In practice of course, it's hard to tell the difference. many times I'm almost certain I'm doing the right thing by reading/meditating, but in retrospect it turns out to be wishful thinking, so akusala. > >> In meditation it is the same. No 'one' can "force" or "control" anything to arise or stop something arisen from being arisen. However certain conditions can be planted that will result in spontaneous and un-willed by any Self, certain states to arise. > >pt: This I don't quite understand "certain conditions can be planted", unless you mean when kusala awareness arises during meditation, that is the actual "planting". > >> A: As to Sati, a very important cetasika. Like other qualities, sati can be of many degrees. Giving Dana to a pujjhana vs a Buddha, are both acts of Dana - however one act is incalculably more kusala than another. Stealing $10 vs $10 Billion are both akusala action of stealing. However the kammic result will be of different degrees. > >> Similar case is with sati. Sati in or after 4th Jhana is of a different quality and strength then everyday sati. It is like comparing the illumination of the super powered flashlight vs candle light. Another simile is trying to dig the earth with an excavator vs with a spoon. > >> In the suttas it is said that sati is purified in 4th Jhana. So Jhanic states do give a powerful boost to Sati. And to reach Jhana one must develop enough panna as well, so it is not a "dumb way" or "useless" path. > >pt: I tend to agree that with samatha development sati (as well as calm, etc) do seem to strengthen. The question remains though (what I think you are saying) whether increased sati, calm, etc, help (condition) panna to develop in terms of insight. I'm not quite sure about that. > >While strong sati certainly helps panna develop in terms of samatha and withdrawing from the senses, I'm not sure how much it helps it in terms of insight itself. I mean, if panna can be of different kinds - conceptual, samatha and insight kinds, would that mean that sati, calm, concentration and other cetasikas can also be of different kinds (so not just different intensities) ? Which would then mean that a strong sati of samatha kind has very little to do with strong sati of insight kind? I don't know, just wondering here. > >Best wishes >pt > #105287 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Listening to music nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 16-feb-2010, om 15:50 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > If there is natural way of development is it also listening to a > music? ------- N: Sure. I love it, and I play myself. I do not worry about it. ------ L: I am getting lost in concepts. Imagined world. This made me very agitated. Lost in concepts. This takes me out of panna and awarness. This makes me more going in concepts. ------ N: As Sarah said, the idea of self is there. Agitated: this is a sign of lobha that conditions it. You and not only you, think of the self who should have awareness, and not be lost in concepts. But all such moments have their own conditions. It is normal to be lost in concepts, we all do. But good we have a chance to listen so that understanding can be accumulated, even a tiny bit. As to fear of kamma patha: who knows his past lives. Perhaps there was a lot of killing and any kamma can produce rebirth-consciousness. If we start to worry about that there is no end to worry. Past is past, make the most of this moment by understanding it. Nina. #105288 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dosa nilovg Dear Ken O, you said that you have no topic, but all this is very good. Excellent topics to elaborate more on, for example what you say about seeing sees. You can help all of us with your observations. Nina Op 16-feb-2010, om 15:56 heeft Ken O het volgende geschreven: > The solution is at this moment, this reality. Listen more to the > audio clippings. It really serve as a daily reminder. The more > you listen, the more it condition you to live in terms of dhammas. > > What I tell you above, is base on my personal experience. It > really works for me and I hope it does for you. Honestly, it > takes me a long time to understand what A. Sujin means by "Seeing > sees". I thought I understand it when I first heard of it, then I > realise, how foolish I was. I am not seeing. And honestly, I > still learning to "Seeing sees" because dhamma is very deep. #105289 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:10 pm Subject: Re: Dhutanga, Sila and practice in VsM truth_aerator Hello Jon, Dieter, Pt, ALl, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (105237) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > Excellent point. One studies the proper behaviour (such as outline in FIRST 2 chapters of VsM) and then one does it. So "wisely reflecting" doesn't remain in theory only, impotent and unable to provide tangible and practical result. > > =============== > > I suspect our views differ here. To my understanding, "wisely >reflecting" refers to the arising of satipatthana. Wisely reflecting comes prior to Satipatthana. See AN 10.61-62 "What is the supportive condition for the four establishments of mindfulness? The three right behaviours is the reply. " "What is the supportive condition for mindful awareness? Wise attention is the reply Bhikkhus, I say, even wise attention has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for wise attention? Faith is the reply" http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/10-dasakanip\ ata/007-yamakavaggo-e.html Note: 3 right behaviours are supportive conditions for 4 Satipatthana. This is what Dhutanga practice does for kaya-vaci. In Mn125 prior to doing satipatthana, there is "Mindfulness and clear consciousness" and at some prior point there is developing of morality and sense-control (done at the highest level by doing dhutanga) . http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.125.horn.html > > Now this is not something that one can just decide to "do". Awareness arises only to the extent that (a) it has been developed/accumulated in the past and (b) there are conditions for its current arising, such as the 4 factors we have mentioned and discussed before. > > > =============== > > In VsM, Buddhaghosa spends ~53 pages (pg5-58) talking about Sila/Virtue, proper behaviour of monks. (Ch1) > > > > Ascetic practices (dhutanga ) for 27 pages (58-85). (Ch2) > > Samadhi takes ~ 282 pages (pg85-368) > > Panna ~306 pages (435-741) > > > > Sila + Samadhi part outnumber Panna - and are mentioned FIRST. \ > > 362 pages vs 306 pages. > > > > In any case, Ven. Buddhaghosa has spend considerable time talking about sila, dhutanga practices and yes, Samadhi. > > > > Are some students here so capable that they can dispense with Sila and Samadhi development as explained in VsM? > > =============== > > I think you have misunderstood. Nobody here is saying that sila and samadhi should not be developed. > > The question being discussed is whether, according to the Buddha's >teaching, a certain level of sila and/or samadhi is a prerequisite >for beginning levels of awareness. ALWAYS is a supportive condition. "What is the supportive condition for the four establishments of mindfulness? The three right behaviours is the reply. " Now if you are an angel who cannot be spoilt by any surroundings, then Dhutanga would be un-needed. "4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats. > That is to say, whether the development of awareness can begin >without the need to first attain a particular level of sila and/or >samatha. Never without sila. "What is the supportive condition for the four establishments of mindfulness? The three right behaviours is the reply. " > My understanding is that there is no particular level of sila or >samatha required for the development of awareness to begin. That is your understanding. The Buddha and Buddhaghosa had a vastly different ideas. > However, that does not mean that I ignore sila and samatha. All >kinds of kusala are worth developing, at every opportunity. Noone says that don't develop awareness, don't be mindful. It is just that some situations and circumstances are FAR better than others. Anapanasati and other suttas frequently talk about the need to go into secluded place FIRST, before developing real mindfulness. VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him" - Anapanasati VsM VIII VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing. VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] NOTE: "Empty places" are not simply a mental state (which is also helpful). There are favourable and unfavourable places: As to unfavourable monastery VsM - IV,2 : "Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond, [edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not favourable. He should not live there. " HE SHOULD NOT LIVE THERE. Ten Impediments: VsM III, 29 A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." With metta, Alex #105290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye-consciousness & vedana, such as pain nilovg Dear Alex, Op 13-feb-2010, om 21:09 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > CMA says that first 4 sense consciousness experience only > equanimity, while body&mind can experience pleasant/painful vedana. > > What happens when one looks directly at the sun without wearing > sunglasses? ------- N: That pain is experienced through the bodysense. > ------ > A:Isn't there pain based on the eye? [same could be said about > hearing very loud or screeching noise, etc]. I am *not* talking > about emotional reaction like liking or disliking. Just bare > sensation (vedana) without any conceptual interpretation. ----- N: it hurts, again through the bodysense. -------- > > A:Strictly speaking the fleshy eye and body doesn't feel anything > as inert matter. The feeling itself in any/every case is mental. ------ N: It is felt through the bodysense, that is the doorway. It is ruupa. ------- > > A: Aren't the first 4 sense consciousness all belong to the mind in > general? > > How would CMA analyze "looking at the sun and feeling pain"? > > Unwholesome resultant eye-consciousness accompanied with equanimity > being followed by unwholesome body-resultant accompanied with pain? --------- N: See above. It has nothing to do with eye-consciousness. ------ > > A: Doesn't the above contradict the suttas which say that > All 6 senses can experience 3 types of vedana, thus making 18 total > vedana. These 18 can be multiplied by 3 time periods and for > layperson vs renunciant making 18x2 = 54 *2 = 108 feelings. ----- N: Not clear what the six senses are. But I better take leave now. ---- Nina. #105291 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: other teachers, and siila. moellerdieter Dear Nina, I understand that you in preparation of your visit to Thailand (?) so thanks for still taking the time despite you may be busy. (B.T.W. quite a climate change now , isn't it?) you wrote: 'N:Once she said: any teaching is good that can help me to understand more the truth of realities. This is actually: the truth of the reality appearing at the present moment. In this matter she will not think of persons, just of paramattha dhammas. D : thanks , Nina .. in general -I assume -it means 'knowledge and > clear-seeing according to actuality ' (?) -------- N: Development of right understanding in accordance with the teachings. ------ D: Students from other schools however may consider that such teaching would mistake a mean for the aim.. ------- N: Yes, possible. Different people say so many things. D: they do.. ... e.g... hm.., better postpone for a more convenient time !? ;-) N: I cannot answer all mails now, but I read what you said about siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. There is for teaching purposes in the Vis. this sequence. It does not have to do with a certain order. Vis. includes all types of siila in Ch I, even lokuttara citta. D: the order within the sequence maybe variable , but in general makes sense .. good to recall N.'s definition of .. sikkha-: the 'training', which the Buddha's disciple has to undergo, is 3-fold: training in higher morality (adhisi-la-sikkha-), in higher mentality (adhicitta-sikkha-), and in higher wisdom (adhipañña--sikkha-). This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga, q.v.) in morality, concentration and wisdom (si-la, sama-dhi, pañña-). In D. 16 and A.IV,1 it is said: "It is through not understanding, not penetrating noble morality ... noble concentration ... noble wisdom ... noble deliverance that I, as well as you, have had for such a long time to pass through this round of rebirths.'' "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom hrings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (a-sava q.v.) namely, from the sensuous canker (ka-ma-sava), from the canker of existence (bhava-sava) from the canker of opinions (dit.t.hisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijja-sava). N: I heard a recording in English: Kh Sujin said that the teachings are very subtle. We have to consider each word, also siila. Usually siila is conduct through body and speech, but also citta can be included. Kusala citta is siila. Daana is siila by way of generosity. Whole some thinking is samatha and it can be included in siila. All types of kusala citta are siila of different levels. D: I am not clear about the involvement of citta , isn't that cetasika? N.'s definition:si-la: 'morality', 'virtue', is a mode of mind and volition (cetana-, q.v.) manifested in speech or bodily action (s. kamma). It is the foundation of the whole Buddhist practice, and therewith the first of the 3 kinds of training (sikkha-, q.v.) that form the 3-fold division of the 8-fold Path (s. magga), i.e. morality, concentration and wisdom.' However reference is made to kamma , which includes mental action , besides speech and body and all are conditioned by volition (avijja - sankhara) ....for the training path factor 6 , right effort , seems to be touching both sila and samadhi , speaking for some flexibility of the order of path factors in the 3 fold squence .. I mentioned as well the possibility of inv. 2 , right thought , within the sila sequence N:At the moment of understanding a reality, there is siila. The citta is kusala citta since there is accumulation of understanding from hearing the Dhamma and considering. D: hearing , considering and put into practise (training ) ;-) N: Whenever there is pa~n~naa (of the level of satipa.t.thaana) there is siila and samatha. Thus, there is higher siila, higher concentration and higher understanding. D: hm..in training one needs to work with the panna level available.. moral and concentration are supposed to feed panna , not opposite N: commentary to the Mahaaparinibbaanasutta (transl by Yang-Gyu An, as the Buddha's Last Days, PTS): Ch 1, 12: deals with the Buddha's repetition of: such is siila, such is concentration, such is wisdom. D: the commentary emphasizes the importance of the sila, samadhi, panna training , in particular that of DN 16 N: the path: maggacitta and result is phalacitta. Here this is samaadhi that is lokuttara, accompanying maggacitta and phalacitta. We have to be careful, because sometimes lokuttara samaadhi is referred to. The same is said about wisdom D: for further discussion ;-) with Metta Dieter #105292 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:38 pm Subject: Re: Re[2]: [dsg] Re:thinking, considering. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 13-feb-2010, om 16:12 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > Very helpful quote with samma-sankhapa. How does it happens that we > are so deep with our ignorance? We think about concepts of people > and things and we forget the Truth? > > Here is a quote from Milindhapanha ------- N: Thank you for the quote. Why so deep with ignorance? We accumulated this from long, long ago. How could we get rid of it at once, impossible. Only the arahat has eradicated it. Nina. #105293 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: other teachers, and siila. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 16-feb-2010, om 20:34 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven: > N: Whenever there is pa~n~naa (of the level of satipa.t.thaana) > there is siila and samatha. Thus, there is higher siila, higher > concentration and higher understanding. > > D: hm..in training one needs to work with the panna level > available.. moral and concentration are supposed to feed panna , > not opposite ----- N: They condition one another. As pa~n~naa develops also siila becomes more powerful. There is less the idea of self and this sure helps to have metta instead of dosa. When there is mettaa there is also siila, you will not hurt or harm others by speech of action. As pa~n~naa develops, concentration also grows: awareness of this ruupa only, or that naama only, this is right concentration of the eightfold Path. As to higher: there is at one and the same moment higher siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. Nina. #105294 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. nilovg Dear Vince, Op 11-feb-2010, om 23:43 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > Our present body is kamma, the fruit of > actions of the past. ------- N: What we call present body are diofferent ruupas, some of which are conditioned by kamma, some by citta, some by temperature, some by nutrition. We cannot say: our body is kamma. > -------- > I put here your own words citing the Patthana about the arising > of rupa because kamma and precisely by co-arising: > > "Vipakacitta and kiriyacitta can also produce rupa, and the > accompanying cetana conditions citta, the other cetasikas and rupa by > way of conascent- kamma-condition, sahajata kamma-paccaya. ------- N: I quote more: -------- Nina. #105295 From: "philip" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dosa philofillet Hi Lukas I always find myself eager to support you, because you are just about the only Buddhist I know (and all the Buddhists I know are on the internet) who openly talk about struggling with doing bad deeds. I really admire that. > Could you please say more about kamma-pattha? I think my behaviour was very bad because I said a lot of bad words, this wasnt only harsh speach, but I intended to hurt other person. I used very strong words. > This surely will bring akusala vipaka to me. And also give me more bad kamma in the future. Adding to your other friends' excellent advice,I will add a point that I find encouraging. As you probably know, there is a sutta in Anguttara Nikaya in which the Buddha teaches us that when we abstain from akusala kamma patha deeds (or is it breaking the precepts? I forget) we offer protection to unlimited beings. But I have never seen a sutta in which the Buddha says that when we fail to abstain, we cause harm to unlimited beings. So please value all your many moments of abstaining. One thing I have done for the last years is write down in a diary, at the end of the day, any thing I did that day that I regret, any moments of harsh speech, for example, moments of failing to support my loved ones, or moments of lusting after women in ways that they became aware of and were made uncomfortable by (we call that "getting busted" in slang) and other things. And it is really encouraging to look at that diary at the end of the year and see how few the incidents were. And it makes it clear that the incidents that *do* occur - and they will always occur - are occurring quite literally in a sea of pages of no regrets! Now, if you keep a diary and see no change in bad behaviour over several years, well...I don't believe that is possible for a person like yourself who is studying the Buddha's teaching so diligently! Don't be hard on yourself. Our accumulated unwholesome tendencies must play out, but they will play out surrounded by more and more and more instances of wise abstention and good and generous and wise actions. One more thing I like to think about - I think I wrote this to you before - is being a vipaka lightning rod! I (so to speak, of course it is all about dhammas being conditioned in so many ways) have earned the vipaka that comes to me, and only I am impacted by it if there is a wise response, but if there is a lack of wise reflection, the vipaka conditions unwholesome response, and the kamma I create can impact so many people. So I want to be a vipaka lightning rod, I want the vipaka to run through me, so to speak, and end there, in the ground, the way lightning does when it hits a lightning rod! I personally find and I believe the Buddha teaches that placing an emphasis on developing mindfulness in the body is helpful in creating that wise and resilient response, we become less likely to lash out, more like the gong that doesn't ring, or something like that. Don't sweat it, Lukas. You were born human in the time of a Buddha's teaching. Very, very, very, very, very, very, very good kamma at work in you my friend! That's seven "very"s!!! Amazing! Metta, Phil #105296 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dosa nilovg Dear Phil, You wrote such a nice letter to Lukas, I appreciate it. Nina. Op 16-feb-2010, om 15:18 heeft philip het volgende geschreven: > You were born human in the time of a Buddha's teaching. Very, very, > very, very, very, very, very good kamma at work in you my friend! > That's seven "very"s!!! Amazing! #105297 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhutanga and Noble Eightfold Path. moellerdieter Hi Alex, Jon .. you wrote : One needs to know the purpose of The Way, and correct application of mental training. There should also be right view about right view. With all of the above said, however, it does NOT mean that all one does is to study and one day the awakening, dhutanga practices, meditation, etc will "just have happened". Preliminary Study isn't that much. It is possible to condense the bare-essence of the rules and teachings into few pages , and certainly it is possible to read all you need to know in few months. After this, training is required. D: yes .. training is required ! sometimes the ' hen - egg ' issue seems to confuse the approach A: People here claim to take VsM as authoritative. Great. "4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats. D: I am not sure about your point of Dhutanga here .. 'NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats' must be certainly seen in which context they are written , i.e. for bhikkhus the limit of 'Thirteen kinds of ascetic practices have been allowed by the Blessed One ' , emphasis is on allowed .. as otherwise the statement contradicts the Middle Way doctrine . with Metta Dieter #105298 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye-consciousness & vedana, such as pain upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Alex) - If I may, I'd like to add my understanding of what you are saying (and that I agree with). In a message dated 2/16/2010 2:33:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Alex, Op 13-feb-2010, om 21:09 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > CMA says that first 4 sense consciousness experience only > equanimity, while body&mind can experience pleasant/painful vedana. > > What happens when one looks directly at the sun without wearing > sunglasses? ------- N: That pain is experienced through the bodysense. --------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, two things are occuring (closely in time): 1) Seeing a sight/visible object - an affectively neutral rupa, and 2) Feeling eye-area pain, i.e., experiencing a bodily sensation (a body-door rupa) in the eye area that is affectively negative - that is, unpleasant. --------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > A:Isn't there pain based on the eye? [same could be said about > hearing very loud or screeching noise, etc]. I am *not* talking > about emotional reaction like liking or disliking. Just bare > sensation (vedana) without any conceptual interpretation. ----- N: it hurts, again through the bodysense. ------------------------------------------------------------ Yes, it is a bodily sensation in the eye area that is "vedanized" as unpleasant. The sight is one thing, and the pain is entirely different - a strong, unpleasant, bodily sensation. ------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > > A:Strictly speaking the fleshy eye and body doesn't feel anything > as inert matter. The feeling itself in any/every case is mental. ------ N: It is felt through the bodysense, that is the doorway. It is ruupa. --------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, the category of that rupa is bodily. ------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > > A: Aren't the first 4 sense consciousness all belong to the mind in > general? > > How would CMA analyze "looking at the sun and feeling pain"? > > Unwholesome resultant eye-consciousness accompanied with equanimity > being followed by unwholesome body-resultant accompanied with pain? --------- N: See above. It has nothing to do with eye-consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------- All conciousness is mental, in that the knowing is nama, not rupa. But the object-content of consciousness may be nama or rupa. In the case of a physical pain, it is unpleasant bodily rupa. In the case of a sight, it is eye-door rupa. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > A: Doesn't the above contradict the suttas which say that > All 6 senses can experience 3 types of vedana, thus making 18 total > vedana. These 18 can be multiplied by 3 time periods and for > layperson vs renunciant making 18x2 = 54 *2 = 108 feelings. ----- N: Not clear what the six senses are. But I better take leave now. ---------------------------------------------------------- The senses don't experience anything. They are rupic conduits. Experiencing in all its forms is citta or cetasika or, IMO, the non-dual "consciousness without feature" which is "beyond the allness of the all." --------------------------------------------------------- ---- Nina. ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #105299 From: Vince Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: What we call present body are diofferent ruupas, some of which are > conditioned by kamma, some by citta, some by temperature, some by > nutrition. We cannot say: our body is kamma. but that's the body., I think. People says "hamburger" including the cheese, lettuce, etc. You cite the Atthasalini in "The Buddhist Teaching on Physical Phenomena": "When the body set up by mind (citta) moves, does the body set up by the other three causes move or not? The latter moves likewise, goes with the former, and invariably follows it. Just as dry sticks, grass, etc., fallen in the flowing water go with the water or stop with it, so should the complete process be understood...." body set up by mind (citta) = kamma. As our body exists as a consolidation of citta, temperature and nutrition, then this consolidation only can be kamma. Without consolidation we cannot talk about "our body" What you thinks? > N: I quote more: > As regards conascent kamma-condition, sahaj?ta kamma-paccaya, the > cetan?s accompanying all eightynine types of citta > are conascent kamma-condition for the citta and the other cetasikas > they accompany as well as for the r?pa produced by them. The cetan? > which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta conditions citta, > the other cetasikas and the r?pa produced by them by way of conascent > kamma-condition, sahaj?ta-kamma-paccaya. > yes but I cannot see the contradiction regarding the co-arising of nama and rupa. In your book, you cite the Visuddhimagga? (XVIII, 31): "Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded." Consciousness is empty. Nama and rupa are empty, They co-arise in the here and now. Just I note when we say "rupa is real", we should be aware rupa and consciousness are empty. They arise in this same moment "to me". Therefore, if we forget emptiness when we claim the reality of rupa, also we are affirming the self. Citta knows about the rupa reality but this knowledge is so empty as same citta. As knowing the reality of a dream; an instant of the dreamer who realizes "this is a dream". That's a progress happening inside the same dream. The core is realizing the nature of the dream. Knowing conceptual or non-conceptual reality of dream experiences is useful in the measure of serving to realize the empty nature of any knowledge and experience. I think so. I don't understand why one should be shy in embracing both the non-conceptual nature and the emptiness of this non-conceptual reality. Why not? best wishes. Vince #105300 From: "philip" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dosa philofillet Hi Nina (and Lukas) Thank you, Nina. Nice to touch bases briefly with you. I think Lukas has a very good situation/conditions because he is obviously concerned by conventional aspects of behaviour, but he is also open to listening to A.S and other friends here talk about paramattha teachings. That is a good combination. I note that he quite often asks you questions like "Nina, how can I have more sati" or "Nina, tell me more about the present moment" and things like that, and personally, as I have said before, I think that hints at wanting a teacher or someone wiser to implant panna in him, and of course it can't work that way. So I personally feel it is good and fine to stay with concerns about conventional behaviour, to work in that field. If we are worried about something related to conventional behaviour, yes, we can be told "it is all self at work" and things like that, but the fact is there *is* sakkaya ditthi strongly at work, yes, but it can't be removed by trying to think "this is all self at work, actually there are only conditined dhammas." I feel that if we allow sakkaya ditthi to help us in the area where it can help, in sorting out conventional behaviour, it will help to create better conditions for deeper understanding to arise, deeper understanding that will see through sakkaya ditthi. I sense that at work in my case these days. There are so very few regrets about behaviour, when I sit to meditate, that hindrance of remorse is so very absent, when there is no remorse, the mind concentrates better. (I like the line in MN 19 - "the disturbed mind is far from concentration." It hints at a meaning of concentration that is different from the universal cetasika of concentration that accompanies all cittas, whether dealing with disturbed mind states or not.) I find these days that as there is less remorse and behaviour seems to be falling into a more wholesome habitual pattern, my interest is gradually turning back towards paramattha teachings. I know I must understand the deep teachings for there to be liberation. But I am very glad that I had this two or three year period (so far) of putting most emphasis on conventional behaviour. I hope Lukas can continue to be gently and non-remorsefully concerned by conventional aspects of behaviour even as he continues to listen patiently to the deeper teachings. I do want to continue to take a break from Dhamma discussion this year, so this will be my final post for awhile. I hope you and Lodewijk are well. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Phil, > You wrote such a nice letter to Lukas, I appreciate it. > Nina. ] > #105301 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhutanga and Noble Eightfold Path. truth_aerator Hello Dieter, all, > "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Alex, Jon .. > D: yes .. training is required ! > sometimes the ' hen - egg ' issue seems to confuse the approach > > A: People here claim to take VsM as authoritative. Great. > > "4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 > > NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats. > > D: I am not sure about your point of Dhutanga here .. The point is that there *are* specific practices to be done. Those descriptions are clear that intentional actions such as Dhutanga for monks is profitable (wholesome). Even though the negative qualities reside in the mind, not the body, training in Dhutanga can help to restrain and weaken the kilesas . With metta, Alex #105302 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:34 am Subject: Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Actually, I am going to delete the long screed I have just typed, responding point by point to the quotes. In the long run the question is "Is A. Chah telling us to embark on a formal practice of some kind, or is he telling us that right now there are only dhammas - no self, no doer. > > > > When we understand that there are only dhammas we understand that there are no formal practices - never have been, never will be. > .. > S: Yes, of course I agree with the conclusion. If you still have "the long screed" in your drafts, I'd like to see it. > > Metta > > Sarah > p.s As you know, Nina's collecting Qs to raise in Bkk, so if you or anyone else has anymore, pls post them. > ======== Hi Sarah (Mike and all), Speaking of my drafts folder, this reply has been in there too long. I was waiting for inspiration but, as with my questions for A Sujin, . . . nothing. (One day I will regret these lost opportunities.) The long screed was deleted in its draft stage, thanks for your interest. You haven't missed much. :-) I hope Mike, Dieter, Alex and others will continue discussing the teachings of respected Buddhist teachers. It would be good to go through some point by point. Then we could see who was teaching satipatthana (right understanding of a presently arisen conditioned dhamma) and who wasn't. Or, leaving personalities aside, we could see when a teaching was satipatthana and when it wasn't. It is really important to know this. Ken H #105303 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dosa szmicio Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your help. This is support that I was counting on very much > Adding to your other friends' excellent advice,I will add a point that I find encouraging. As you probably know, there is a sutta in Anguttara Nikaya in which the Buddha teaches us that when we abstain from akusala kamma patha deeds (or is it breaking the precepts? I forget) we offer protection to unlimited beings. L: Yes I think this can be abhaya dana. The kind of offering that brings peace and harmony to other people, fearlessness. This can be practicing right speach or even dont say much. Than people when doing bad things can get from us some space. This is nice, when people suffers from bad deeds, had regrets and we dont criticise them or judge. Just live it all to forget. Than this kind of abstaining from bad speach(siila) can be abaya dana. > One more thing I like to think about - I think I wrote this to you before - is being a vipaka lightning rod! I (so to speak, of course it is all about dhammas being conditioned in so many ways) have earned the vipaka that comes to me, and only I am impacted by it if there is a wise response, but if there is a lack of wise reflection, the vipaka conditions unwholesome response, and the kamma I create can impact so many people. So I want to be a vipaka lightning rod, I want the vipaka to run through me, so to speak, and end there, in the ground, the way lightning does when it hits a lightning rod! I personally find and I believe the Buddha teaches that placing an emphasis on developing mindfulness in the body is helpful in creating that wise and resilient response, we become less likely to lash out, more like the gong that doesn't ring, or something like that. > > Don't sweat it, Lukas. You were born human in the time of a Buddha's teaching. Very, very, very, very, very, very, very good kamma at work in you my friend! That's seven "very"s!!! Amazing! L: Thanks for this support, Phil. I feel like I am not on my own now. Best wishes Lukas #105304 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye-consciousness & vedana, such as pain nilovg Dear Howard, Op 16-feb-2010, om 22:00 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The senses don't experience anything. They are rupic conduits. > Experiencing in all its forms is citta or cetasika or, IMO, the > non-dual "consciousness without feature" which is "beyond the > allness of the all." > --------------------------------------------------------- N: Yes, we see it the same way. Except the last sentence. It sounds a bit Mahayanic to me, possible? #105305 From: "Lukas" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:17 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dosa szmicio Dear Ken O, Yes, but this is very hard to remeber this in life. I am constantly forgetting this. I prefer to leave in words of concepts. Today I read Acharn's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. She mentioned what I forgot long long ago. This was nice to hear it again: 'The goal of Dhamma is to eradict wrong view of Self' I consider this very supportive. Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Lukas > > Where are the bad words now?? Stop thinking about it, it only exist when you think about it.? And it is gone.? What is the use of thinking about it.?? Always return to dhamma.? Why?? Because dhamma is real, not self.? It arise because of conditions.?? The way?to develop more patience, more metta is the understanding that whatever dosa that arise.? > > <> > Stop thinking how "I".????Stop thinking in terms of self, beings, words, names,?live your daily life as dhammas and not concepts. Live in terms?paramathas dhammas even though it is conceptual for us now.?? In future, if you are angry, just remember, it is just another reality, another dhamma, another nama.? Slowly and surely, dosa will be lesser.? this is the natural way, and?not keep thinking about?finding a?solution or a?quick fix.? The solution is at this moment, this reality.? Listen more to the audio clippings.? It really serve as a daily reminder.? The more you listen, the more it condition you to live in terms of dhammas.? > > What I tell you above,?is base on my personal experience.??It really works for me and I hope it does for you.?? Honestly, it takes me a long time to understand ?what A. Sujin means by?"Seeing sees".? I thought I understand it when I first heard of it, then I realise, how foolish I was.? I am not seeing.? And honestly, I still learning to "Seeing sees"? because?dhamma is very deep.? . #105306 From: Lukas Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. szmicio Dear Nina, This's very helpful. Best wishes Lukas > N: I quote more: > kamma-condition > and asynchronous kamma-condition. If we remember that kamma > is cetana > cetasika and that cetanå arises with each citta we can > understand > what conascent kamma-condition is. Cetanå which arises > with each > citta directs the associated dhammas to accomplish their > functions; > it conditions these dhammas by way of conascent > kamma-condition, > sahajåta kamma-paccaya. > Cetanå which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta > has a double > function: it directs the tasks of the associated dhammas > and it has > the function of “willing” or activity in good and bad > deeds. In this > last function it is capable to produce the results of good > and bad > deeds later on. Kusala cetanå and akusala cetanå that > produce the > appropriate results of good deeds or bad deeds later on > condition > these results by way of asynchronous kamma-condition. Thus, > this is > kamma operating from a different time (nåùakkhaùika > kamma-paccaya), > it is different from conascent kamma-condition. > As regards conascent kamma-condition, sahajåta > kamma-paccaya, the > cetanås accompanying all eightynine types of citta > are conascent kamma-condition for the citta and the > other cetasikas > they accompany as well as for the rúpa produced by them. > The cetanå > which accompanies kusala citta and akusala citta conditions > citta, > the other cetasikas and the rúpa produced by them by way > of conascent > kamma-condition, sahajåta-kamma-paccaya. > > -------- #105307 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta sarahprocter... Dear pt & all, Thank you for your helpful comments. I'm not sure if my further comments will be of any help, but here goes: --- On Tue, 16/2/10, ptaus1 wrote: >pt: I'm not sure as there are seemingly contradictory statements on both sides. Taking your position on the matter, if we agree that many, many lifetimes are necessary to develop all the accumulations and paramis, then it would be logical that parami of wisdom would also gradually develop higher and higher. I mean, it doesn't make much sense to me that it would be an exception and not develop (beyond paccaya pariggaha nana) until the last life. ... S: Or, as I'd suggest, *not develop to even the first stage of insight" until the last life. The way KS explains it -- and this will be a poor summary -- all the 'ingredients' have to be ready and in place for such insight to develop and all defilements to be eradicated by the Samma Sambuddha. As I understand, if it weren't like this, a) it wouldn't be the self-realization in that life and b)it wouldn't be the omniscient wisdom, far-exceeding the wisdom of any other arahat unless the conditions, the preparations leading up to this point, such as the perfecting of all the other paramis, had taken place. Likewise, for other key disciples, such as Sariputta -- he had accumulated great wisdom and had attained to the highest jhanas in his last life as taught by other teachers. However, until he heard the verse of the Dhamma, no vipassana nanas. Only when he heard the following from Assaji did all the insights up to sotapatti magga arise (as I understand): "Of those things that arise from a cause, The Tathaagata has told the cause, And also what their cessation is: This is the doctrine of the Great Recluse." The texts refer to why Sariputta atained arahatship after Moggallana as being because of the even greater preparations required. The commentaries compare the preparations needed when a king makes a trip as compared to a poor person. The same applied to the first disciple as compared to other key disciples. .... >Especially considering that panna is pretty much the deciding factor of the development, like in terms of what you say: >> S: Usually when we make aspirations or vows in "real-life" they are as likely to be lobha as anything else - wishing for some kind of result! >pt: So, to me it seems that bodhisatta's wisdom would already have to be highly developed if he's to keep developing based on aspirations in kusala direction, otherwise, he'd be developing in akusala direction as there would be no discerning between a/kusala aspirations, i.e. he'd be just "wishing for some kind of result" as you say. .... S: Not in the case of the Bodhisatta:). Great wisdom, great kusala of all kinds being developed and a far longer path because of the magnitude of the task, but all insights that can only ever be 'discovered' by a Buddha. ... >Finally, there's that condition that before bodhisatta aspiration, he must be capable of becoming an arahant in that very life, what to me would mean that he's already a cula-sotapanna of sorts, if not higher - i.e. he's already assured of becoming an arahant, not just sotapanna, which would again mean that his wisdom is already very highly developed. .... S: We read about cases of others who had the accumulations to become arahats, but because of particular defilements, such as a drink addiction problem, didn't even become sotapannas or even reach stages of insight. I don't read these as suggesting they were at least cula-sotapannas. In the bodhisatta's case, I just read it to mean that if that aspiration had not been made, conditions would have been such that he'd have become an arahat under Buddha Kassapa (I think). This again is because the task of becoming an arahat is so very small compared to the task of becoming a samma Sambuddha in terms of the degree of the perfections, discriminations, knowledges and so on. All conditions - not a deliberately preventing progress by an aspiration or anything like that - anatta. ... >Those are three main points that confuse me regarding your position. When it comes to the other position, there are also a few confusing matters - the fixed destiny issue, the aspiration preventing progress beyond a certain point and how does that work, etc. .... S: I'll look at your references separately. Metta Sarah ====== #105308 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta sarahprocter... Dear pt, Sorry, I'll have to pull out the texts below another time and that could be quite a while away as we'll be travelling for several weeks! Off early tomorrow morning for Bkk. In the meantime, perhaps Connie, Scott or others might be induced to pull out the texts (and/or audio tapes) to discuss further. The audio recordings refer to edited discussions with KS, but no time to check which for now. However, if you check the date of Musings 13 original, presumably the audio set with a date just prior to this would be one lot. (There were several). Again, Connie or Scott or Ken O or Lukas or anyone else who's listened a lot (even Phil!!) might be able to help track them down. Thanks to you for any techie help, and to Ken H, Scott, Howard and all who help on and off-list on any travel days when we have little or no computer access. KK next week Tues-Thurs would qualify:). Metta Sarah --- On Tue, 16/2/10, ptaus1 wrote: SN 25.1 (transl. by Thanissaro Bhikkhu): http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn25/sn25. 001.than. html At Savatthi. "Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable. "One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry. "One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening. " ===== pt: So here dhamma-follower and faith-follower seem pretty much the same as cula-sotapanna. In Kathavatthu, sections XIII.3 amd XIII.4 deal with fixed destiny/assurance. Section XIII.4 in particular deals with bodhisattas. But I can't really understand what they are saying and who's saying what. > S: By now, you've probably listened to many audio recordings on it too. pt: Which audio recordings on it do you mean? #105309 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: "Hinayana" in the Kanjur? sarahprocter... Hi Buddy, Just wished to welcome you to DSG! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Buddy" wrote: > I am less than a beginner with the Abhidhamma. I know what it is, but have not read any of it - just references in other material. I had not know of your work until I started reading this group, and was yesterday trying to decide which book of yours to begin with. I was thinking "Abhidhamma in Daily Life." Or should I start with another one? ... S: As Nina said, if you start with this text, just go very slowly and ask lots of questions here or share any of your comments. We'd all like to hear how you get on and find it. You might find it helpful to print out the Pali glossary to be found in the files section of DSG and have it handy as you read. By the way, where do you live? Metta Sarah (living in Hong Kong). ======= #105310 From: "sarah" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary sarahprocter... Dear Dieter & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > Your experience in Canberra , being together with intelligent people and not being able to talk about what really counts in life , sounds to me rather familar . Place, time and opportunity .. one of those never seems to fit. > That ' s different in a Buddhist country ...even or just with common people . May be you noticed that too ..especially in case you speak some Thai.. .... S: Not sure....superficially in a Buddhist country people seem to have more appreciation of the Dhamma. However, when it comes to the understanding of dhammas and of dhammas as anatta, I think the problems are the same. ... > > You mentioned your nephew 'still searching' .. I believe best one can do to buy a nice written compendium of the world religions/philosophies and let him choose his direction .. truth wants to be found , doesn't it? ... S: A good suggestion. He would have written books on many religions, especially Christianity. When he stayed with us before, I would have given him a book/books on Buddhism....We had some discussions before - just his own large wedding was not a very suitable occasion for more. .... > > Though all dreams/experiences are not worth clinging to .. I think those we really enjoyed - and nothing is said against enjoying events involving no harm or positive development - can be a valueable source to overcome e.g. the blues when recalled ..and even support wholesome states to arise , doesn't it? > By the way there is a sutta in which the Buddha is said to have smiled when recalling occasions of previous lives.. .... S: Of course, not with any lobha in his case. .... > > S: The development of understanding now is the only kind of "intelligence" that is of any value in an ultimate sense, the only kind that will help bring release from the bonds of samsara. > Just reflecting out loud, here! I'll appreciate any of your reflections too, Dieter or anyone else. > > > D: may be in an ultimate sense ..but I believe for our situation the understanding of now as the accumulation of previous kamma (as far as we may recall ) and our choice of action as the reaction towards it , being the perspective of future (kamma) is of utmost importance . > The choice of course 'right view' orientated .. just reflecting ....;-) ... S: And of course, the "choiceless choice" - all anatta....;-) ... > P.S: I remember to have read that Ven. Dhammanando intended to go to Denmark .. do you have any further information ? ... S: No, I heard the same as you and then no more. I was wondering the same... Perhaps others have more news or perhaps Ven Dh himself is reading and will let us know where he's residing now. Metta Sarah p.s All - signing off for now. Will try to send some e-cards from Bkk. Our first discussion is on Sat, so probably after that. ======= #105311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. nilovg Dear Vince, Op 17-feb-2010, om 1:32 heeft Vince het volgende geschreven: > body set up by mind (citta) = kamma. > > As our body exists as a consolidation of citta, temperature and > nutrition, then this consolidation only can be kamma. > Without consolidation we cannot talk about "our body" > What you thinks? ------- N: We have to differentiate ruupas conditioned by citta, such as when frowning with dosa, and ruupas produced by kamma, such as eyesense, etc. -------- > > V: Consciousness is empty. Nama and rupa are empty, They co-arise > in the > here and now. Just I note when we say "rupa is real", we should be > aware rupa and consciousness are empty. .... > The core is realizing the nature of the dream. Knowing conceptual or > non-conceptual reality of dream experiences is useful in the measure > of serving to realize the empty nature of any knowledge and > experience. I think so. > > I don't understand why one should be shy in embracing both the > non-conceptual nature and the emptiness of this non-conceptual > reality. Why not? ------- N: Not quite sure how you understand emptiness. I know in Mahayana it means not the same as anatta, non-self. Shall we not rather use the term anattaa, non-self? But before this can be realized there is a lot to be known and investigated about the reality arising right now, such as seeing or hearing. Remember what Ken O wrote: it took him long to really understand what Kh Sujin meant by 'the seeing sees'. It sounds so simple, but before it is really understanood that seeing is a mere dhamma and before the idea of 'I am seeing' is eliminated. We still have a feeling that I see. There has to be a lot of attention to the characteristic of seeing right now, hearing right now before there is more understanding. We think we know, we think we understand, but in reality understanding is so weak. It is abig step into the right direction if we see how much we cling to an idea of I see, I hear. We are so used to these ideas since long. I have to hurry along now, taking a break. Nina. #105312 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye-consciousness & vedana, such as pain upasaka_howard Hi, nina - In a message dated 2/17/2010 4:17:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Howard, Op 16-feb-2010, om 22:00 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The senses don't experience anything. They are rupic conduits. > Experiencing in all its forms is citta or cetasika or, IMO, the > non-dual "consciousness without feature" which is "beyond the > allness of the all." > --------------------------------------------------------- N: Yes, we see it the same way. Except the last sentence. It sounds a bit Mahayanic to me, possible? -------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, it does, but it is found in the suttas as well. I think it is proper Dhamma. ============================ With metta, Howard Beyond the Allness of the All /'Consciousness without surface, endless, radiant all around, has not been experienced through the earthness of earth ... the liquidity of liquid ... the fieriness of fire ... the windiness of wind ... the allness of the all.'/ (From the Brahma-Nimantanika Sutta) #105313 From: Ken O Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eye-consciousness & vedana, such as pain ashkenn2k Dear Alex >------ >> >> A: Doesn't the above contradict the suttas which say that >> All 6 senses can experience 3 types of vedana, thus making 18 total >> vedana. These 18 can be multiplied by 3 time periods and for >> layperson vs renunciant making 18x2 = 54 *2 = 108 feelings. >----- KO:? this is during the javana process of the senses process and not the vipaka With metta Ken O #105314 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:15 pm Subject: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" truth_aerator Hello KenH, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Sarah (Mike and all), > >I hope Mike, Dieter, Alex and others will continue discussing the >teachings of respected Buddhist teachers. It would be good to go >through some point by point. Then we could see who was teaching >satipatthana (right understanding of a presently arisen conditioned >dhamma) and who wasn't. > >Or, leaving personalities aside, we could see when a teaching was >satipatthana and when it wasn't. It is really important to know >this. > > Ken H What is your opinion on Venerable Buddhaghosa? He had a lot of positive things to say about ascetic practice, keeping virtues, samadhi and panna. For example 13 ascetic practices [VsM II, 2] are very beneficial and are good for worldlings and trainees to do [VsM II, 78]. Notice, "to do". "Gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place" are not mental states (though mental states are also required, and attachment to household is a certain kind of unwholesome non-empty mental state) that you can develop anywhere, even on the coach. [VsM VIII,145] After all, the Ten Impediments are: A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." [VsM III, 29] And even some monasteries are still unfavorable. This shows that there are Favourable and unfavourable places. As to unfavourable monastery VsM - IV,2 : "Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond, [edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not favourable. He should not live there. " HE SHOULD NOT LIVE THERE. Ven. Buddhaghosa is making a statement of "thing to do". Sever the impediments, and live in a favourable monastery, etc etc. I am not saying that you should do this. All I am pointing is that "things to be done, places to avoid" IS part of the Teaching. "Thirteen kinds of ascetic practices have been allowed by the Blessed One to clansmen who have given up the things of the flesh and, regardless of body and life, are desirous of undertaking a practice in conformity [with their aim]. They are: i. the refuse-rag-wearer's practice, ii. the triple-robe-wearer's practice, iii. the alms-food-eater's practice, iv. the house-to-house-seeker's practice, v. the one-sessioner's practice, vi. the bowl-food-eater's practice, vii. the later-food-refuser's practice, viii. the forest-dweller's practice, ix. the tree-root-dweller's practice, x. the open-air-dweller's practice, xi. the charnel-ground-dweller's practice, xii. the any-bed-user's practice, xiii. the sitter's practice. " -VsM II, 2 "4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats. VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him" - Anapanasati VsM VIII VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing. VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] ======================= With metta, Alex #105315 From: Ken O Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta ashkenn2k Dear Alex >>pt: I'm not sure as there are seemingly contradictory statements on both sides. Taking your position on the matter, if we agree that many, many lifetimes are necessary to develop all the accumulations and paramis, then it would be logical that parami of wisdom would also gradually develop higher and higher. I mean, it doesn't make much sense to me that it would be an exception and not develop (beyond paccaya pariggaha nana) until the last life. >... KO:? Yes his wisdom is developing keener and keener.? Due to his aspiration, it could only fulfil at the last life. >>pt: So, to me it seems that bodhisatta's wisdom would already have to be highly developed if he's to keep developing based on aspirations in kusala direction, otherwise, he'd be developing in akusala direction as there would be no discerning between a/kusala aspirations, i.e. he'd be just "wishing for some kind of result" as you say. KO:? it is chanda.? And he does falls into akusala actions like the story of him?making a misconduct with the Queen?in chapter 7, Perfections. >>Finally, there's that condition that before bodhisatta aspiration, he must be capable of becoming an arahant in that very life, what to me would mean that he's already a cula-sotapanna of sorts, if not higher - i.e. he's already assured of becoming an arahant, not just sotapanna, which would again mean that his wisdom is already very highly developed. KO:? No he is not a cula-sotapanna.? If he is, he cannot make an inspiration to?be a Buddha.? He needs to have very strong kusala?citta though. Pse see Treatise of Paramis at www.abhidhamma.org?(vi) What is their condition? (6) The achievement of noble qualities (gunasampatti): the achievement of such noble qualities as the direct knowledges (abhinna), etc.? For the aspiration only succeeds when made by one Who has gone forth and gained the eight meditative attainments (samapatti) and the five mundane types of direct knowledge;8it does not succeed for one devoid of these qualities. Why? Because one devoid of them is incapable of investigating the paramis. It is because he possesses the necessary supporting conditions and the direct knowledges that the Great Man, after he has made the aspiration, is able to investigate the paramis by himself. >.... >S: We read about cases of others who had the accumulations to become arahats, but because of particular defilements, such as a drink addiction problem, didn't even become sotapannas or even reach stages of insight. I don't read these as suggesting they were at least cula-sotapannas. In the bodhisatta's case, I just read it to mean that if that aspiration had not been made, conditions would have been such that he'd have become an arahat under Buddha Kassapa (I think). This again is because the task of becoming an arahat is so very small compared to the task of becoming a samma Sambuddha in terms of the degree of the perfections, discriminations, knowledges and so on. All conditions - not a deliberately preventing progress by an aspiration or anything like that - anatta. KO:? Yes he would have become enlighted by hearing the Buddha teachings if not for the aspiration he made.? Pse see Treatise of Paramis at www.abhidhamma.org? at the paragraph,(xiv) how much time is required to accomplished them? ???<< Bodhisattvas also become threefold at the moment they form the aspiration, according to their division into those who comprehend through a condensed teaching (ugghatitannu), those who comprehend through an elaborated teaching (vipancitannu), and those who are capable of training (neyya).32 Among these, one who comprehends through a condensed teaching has such supporting conditions that, if he were disposed towards the enlightenment of a disciple, he could attain arahatship together with the four discriminations (patisambhida) and the six direct knowledges while listening to a four-line stanza from the lips of a perfectly enlightened Buddha, even while the third line. is as yet unconcluded. The second has such supporting conditions that, if he were disposed towards the enlightenment of a disciple, he could attain arahatship together with the six direct knowledges while listening to a four-line stanza from the lips of the Exalted One, even while the fourth line is as yet unconcluded. And the third has the supporting conditions to attain arahatship together with the six direct knowledges when the four-line stanza he hears from the Exalted One is concluded. >> With metta Ken O #105316 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhutanga and Noble Eightfold Path. moellerdieter Hi Alex, you wrote: 'NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats. > (> D: I am not sure about your point of Dhutanga here ..) The point is that there *are* specific practices to be done. Those descriptions are clear that intentional actions such as Dhutanga for monks is profitable (wholesome). Even though the negative qualities reside in the mind, not the body, training in Dhutanga can help to restrain and weaken the kilesas . D: 'can' as you said, agreed, ..but not necessarily for all monks . Therefore the Buddha' allowed ' certain ascetic practises within the Order. My uncertainty concerns the statement above ..NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE ...(= all ascetic practises are profitable ..isn't it? ) which contradicts as I mentioned before the Buddha's doctrine of the Middle Way. (e.g. think about Devadatta who wanted to introduce stronger rules for the Order ) . Probably there is a misunderstanding ..(?) with Metta Dieter #105317 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhutanga and Noble Eightfold Path. truth_aerator Hi Dieter, KenH, all, > "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > > Hi Alex, > > you wrote: > > 'NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats. > > > (> D: I am not sure about your point of Dhutanga here ..) > > The point is that there *are* specific practices to be done. Those descriptions are clear that intentional actions such as Dhutanga for monks is profitable (wholesome). > Even though the negative qualities reside in the mind, not the body, training in Dhutanga can help to restrain and weaken the kilesas . > > D: 'can' as you said, agreed, ..but not necessarily for all monks >. Therefore the Buddha' allowed ' certain ascetic practises within >the Order. Dhutanga practice restraints the kilesas, one of the factors that prevent one from making a breakthrough to maggaphala, jhanas, and so on. Some people are so naturally holy (past accumulations, perhaps past dhutanga practices), that they may not need dhutanga practices in their present life. Buddha allowed certain, 13 ascetic practices, and HE himself has engaged in some of them. But in any case, the point was that there ARE things to be done such as virtue, dhutanga, samadhi, panna. The path is not a passive submission to whatever happens. > > My uncertainty concerns the statement above ..NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE ...(= all ascetic practises > are profitable ..isn't it? ) which contradicts as I mentioned before the Buddha's doctrine of the Middle Way. > (e.g. think about Devadatta who wanted to introduce stronger rules for the Order ) . > Probably there is a misunderstanding ..(?) > > with Metta Dieter You are right. Devadatta wanted to introduce more extreme practices. Buddhist Dhutanga practices are not as extreme as what some yogi ascetics do. Dhutanga practices are only extreme for the kilesas. They do not include eye gouging, hair pulling out, fasting do death, sleeping on bed of nails, etc etc. Again, the point of me mentioning Dhutanga and such was to show that Buddhist path does involve bodily and verbal restraint as part of things to be done. With metta, Alex #105318 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhutanga and Noble Eightfold Path. moellerdieter Hi Alex, you wrote: ' You are right. Devadatta wanted to introduce more extreme practices. Buddhist Dhutanga practices are not as extreme as what some yogi ascetics do. Dhutanga practices are only extreme for the kilesas. They do not include eye gouging, hair pulling out, fasting do death, sleeping on bed of nails, etc etc. Again, the point of me mentioning Dhutanga and such was to show that Buddhist path does involve bodily and verbal restraint as part of things to be done. D: not to talk about the mental one ...no intention to carp ;-) I think we understand eachother quite well.. with Metta Dieter #105319 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhutanga, Sila and practice in VsM moellerdieter Hi Jon and Alex , just jumping in your exchange, hoping you don't mind .. There is obviously the possibility of awareness/mindfulness/sati that 'one can just decide to "do". ' Assumed of course the sila -samadhi ....... -panna training is / has been applied .. now who is the one to decide ? (wrong question ;-) ..Ajahn Cha had a good advise ..see previous posting to Ken H) Jon wrote: I suspect our views differ here. To my understanding, "wisely reflecting" refers to the arising of satipatthana. Now this is not something that one can just decide to "do". Awareness arises only to the extent that (a) it has been developed/accumulated in the past and (b) there are conditions for its current arising, such as the 4 factors we have mentioned and discussed before D: we are talking about the development /the accumulation of sati due to this training , not waiting for its arising due to other conditions Jon: My understanding is that there is no particular level of sila or >samatha required for the development of awareness to begin. (Alex: That is your understanding. The Buddha and Buddhaghosa had a vastly different ideas.) D: Jon , Alex made a good choice of sutta sources to show you right understanding for this issue .. don't you agree it is wise to contemplate them? with Metta Dieter #105320 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:41 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello KenH, all, > > >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah (Mike and all), > > > >I hope Mike, Dieter, Alex and others will continue discussing the >teachings of respected Buddhist teachers. It would be good to go >through some point by point. Then we could see who was teaching >satipatthana (right understanding of a presently arisen conditioned >dhamma) and who wasn't. > > > >Or, leaving personalities aside, we could see when a teaching was >satipatthana and when it wasn't. It is really important to know >this. > > > > Ken H > > > What is your opinion on Venerable Buddhaghosa? > > He had a lot of positive things to say about ascetic practice, keeping virtues, samadhi and panna. > > > For example 13 ascetic practices [VsM II, 2] are very beneficial and are good for worldlings and trainees to do [VsM II, 78]. Notice, "to do". <. . .> -------- Hi Alex, I was thinking more of modern-day teachings; we already know Buddhaghosa's stance on the Dhamma. You have raised the question many times and the answer has always been the same: all ancient commentaries take the view that the world is just the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. Despite conventional language that may seem to be talking about a world of control, we are to understand there is actually no world of control - no people or places, or things to do. Just dhammas! Ken H #105321 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:52 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" truth_aerator Hi KenH, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Alex, > > I was thinking more of modern-day teachings; we already know Buddhaghosa's stance on the Dhamma. You have raised the question many times and the answer has always been the same: all ancient commentaries take the view that the world is just the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. Despite conventional language that may seem to be talking about a world of control, we are to understand there is actually no world of control - no people or places, or things to do. Just dhammas! > > Ken H Please explain these 13 ascetic practices (dhutanga): "4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 please explain the fact that there are favourable and unfavourable places for development: As to unfavourable monastery : "Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond, [edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not favourable. He should not live there. " - VsM IV,2 There are impediments, not all situations are equal. Ten Impediments: A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." - VsM III, 29 ==== Sure one can refuse to acknowledge the whole and look at the parts that one calls "ultimate". But other than intellectual hide and seek, or burying one's hand in the sand, it doesn't change the fact that certain actions are to be done and certain actions are not to be done. Of course it is possible to metaphysically speculate about "world of ultimate particles". But if the hammer falls on your toe, IT DOES HURT. No matter what paramattha teaching says, it is empirically not recommended to drive into a tree at 100 km/h. With metta, Alex #105322 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhutanga, Sila and practice in VsM scottduncan2 Dear Dieter, Regarding: D: "...There is obviously the possibility of awareness/mindfulness/sati that 'one can just decide to 'do'....we are talking about the development /the accumulation of sati due to this training , not waiting for its arising due to other conditions" Scott: Indeed. And thus you show that one of the main elements which conditions the arising of sati is, of course, the Self - a well known dhamma the belief in which was highly recommended by the Buddha. That the Pa.t.thaana fails to elaborate the Self as part of it's rather thorough-going description of conditionality shows clearly that you are totally on the right track with your thesis, and are thus in very good company with Alex, whom you so astutely support. For anyone to aver that the merest arising of sati - due to conditions other than the Self, naturally - is, in fact, the meaning of 'development,' is for him or her to be entirely off his or her rocker. Sincerely, Scott. #105323 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:10 pm Subject: anatta, no-control Meditation truth_aerator Hello Scott, KenH, Sarah, Jon, all > "scottduncan2" wrote: > > > Scott: Indeed. And thus you show that one of the main elements which conditions the arising of sati is, of course, the Self - a well known dhamma the belief in which was highly recommended by the Buddha. That the Pa.t.thaana fails to elaborate the Self as part of it's rather thorough-going description of conditionality shows clearly that you are totally on the right track with your thesis, and are thus in very good company with Alex, whom you so astutely support. > > For anyone to aver that the merest arising of sati - due to conditions other than the Self, naturally - is, in fact, the meaning of 'development,' is for him or her to be entirely off his or her rocker. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > I do not know who is talking here about overly simplistic view of "control" where you can wish sati or panna and just make it happen. That cannot be because all is conditioned and doesn't listen to any non-existent Atta. What teachers teach it? I am not aware of any. It seems that you are attacking straw man arguments of your own making. These straw man arguments would also be critiqued by modern meditation masters like Mahasi and Ajahn Brahm. "So what do people do when they try to meditate? They crave to get peaceful. They work hard to get peaceful, they strive, and they screw their minds up to get peaceful. And then they just get frustrated and think, `I can't meditate'. It's true that you can't meditate. No atta, no `self', can do the meditation: you have got to get out of the way. Put the `I' aside and then you find that meditation happens. You can't do meditation; you've got to just get out of the way for meditation to occur." - pg 87 "The stages of meditation are not something that we make happen. They are just sign posts on a journey. It's just like when I'm sitting in the van going into town. I don't do the driving; I just watch. Now we go through Serpentine, now through Byford, now through Armadale, now through Perth and into Nollamara. They're just stages on the journey. We watch, literally doing nothing, being still one hundred per cent, being peaceful. We see present moment awareness. Now there's silence. We didn't do that; the silence came by itself. And then the breath comes up. We didn't do that; the breath just came. It is just the territory we are passing through. Now the breath is beautiful. It's OK. That's neat, but we don't do anything. Now the nimmitta comes up. We never looked for it, we never asked it to come; or told it to go away; it just happens naturally. The nimmitta is just so brilliant and beautiful. Then we are in jhanas and we keep on going. All these things just happen naturally, all by themselves. We didn't do a thing. All we did was to maintain our peace. We kept the stillness, and so the hindrances never had a chance. Mara the controller is completely confounded. We went in a different direction, the direction of a Buddha, not the direction of the world. We went according to anatta. There's no one in here, so how could we do anything? We didn't follow delusion; we followed wisdom, the path of the saints. That's how we meditate. That's how we get this beautiful, powerful mindfulness. " - Ajahn Brahm in Simply this moment! pg 260-261 No control! With metta, Alex #105324 From: A T Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:35 pm Subject: On speed of Progress truth_aerator Hello all, Citta changes so fast, that Buddha was at loss to find a simile for how fast citta changes. Awakening is the matter of the mind, not the body (which changes slowly). Some monks (Bahiya, Channa, Vakkhali, Godhika) have went from worldling to fully awakened arhats in minutes and split seconds. This shows that theoretically Awakening can happen instantly, or at least very quickly if all the right causes converge. Buddha did say that he could train a person possessing 5 things to become an Arahant in 12 hours. sva-kkha-to bhagavata- dhammo sandit.t.hiko aka-liko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattam. veditabbo viññu-hi-’ti The Dhama is well proclaimed by the Exalted One, Can be realized here and now, not a matter of time, come and see , to be experienced by oneself, realizable by the wise So the Dhamma is sandit.t.hiko aka-liko “visible here and now and is not a matter of time”. To say that it cannot produce results if properly done, is insulting the Dhamma. The fault is with the practitioner, not the Dhamma. Rather than quickly crossing the lake by the means of the super powered motor boat that is already made, people just run along the shore, parallel to the goal, and don’t get anywhere no matter how hard they try. The fault is not with distance, but with the aim or direction that one moves. Becoming awakened is not like digging a mountain to see the view that it obstructs. It is more like turning to the other side or looking from a different direction without the mountain spoiling the scenery. “"I don't envision a single thing that is as quick to reverse itself as the mind — so much so that there is no feasible simile for how quick to reverse itself it is."” - AN 1.48 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.048.than.html Ven. Channa’s story: http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/144-channovada\ -e.html SN 4.23 (3) Godhika Sutta. SN 22.87 (5) Vakkali Sutta. Bahiya story: Udana 1.10 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html “A bhikkhu endowed with these five factors gaining the training from the Thus Gone One in the morning, for whatever cause sons of clansmen rightfully go forth homeless that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, knowing, realizing, will attain in the evening, or advised in the evening would realise the next morning. “ http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/085-bodhirajak\ umara-e1.html 5 qualities: He has few ailments and few disorders, promoting a good digestive system, not too cold and not too hot. He is not crafty nor fraudulent, shows his real self to the Teacher or to the wise co-associates in the Holy life. Abides with aroused effort, for the dispelling of demerit and the accumulation of merit. Becomes firm not giving up the yoke for things of merit. Becomes wise endowed with the noble ones penetration of the rising and falling of the five aggregates, for the rightful destruction of unpleasantness. http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/085-bodhirajak\ umara-e1.html With metta, Alex #105325 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:38 pm Subject: Re: anatta, no-control Meditation scottduncan2 Dear Alex, I hardly expected you would join in, but thanks. Regarding: A: "I do not know who is talking here about overly simplistic view of 'control' where you can wish sati or panna and just make it happen. That cannot be because all is conditioned and doesn't listen to any non-existent Atta. What teachers teach it? I am not aware of any. It seems that you are attacking straw man arguments of your own making." Scott: Yes, how very true. Who indeed repeats such absurd arguments ad infinitum? It is very good that you find a supporter in Dieter. Together, I'm sure, the two of you will combine to be an awesome force which will no doubt succeed in setting the record straight on this whole convoluted area. That there can be such an obvious and blatant misreading of the thesis that one can actually act to set up the necessary conditions to cause the arising of kusala to mean that this implicates a Self is utterly and completely beyond the pale. Anyone who suggests such a heinous thing, and by so doing, erects something as ridiculously irrelevant as a straw man argument - which you so cleverly and insightfully suggest - will no doubt have you to answer to. A: "These straw man arguments would also be critiqued by modern meditation masters like Mahasi and Ajahn Brahm..." Scott: Wow. And who would think that such esteemed and fully accredited modern masters of meditation have misunderstood something like anatta and are therefore only paying lip-service to its full and deep meaning? I mean, who would dare to question that level of heavy-weight modern discourse? I would think that the names alone, leave aside the message, would deter anyone from actually thinking about what they actually say and considering whether this accords with anatta. After reading these words, who would even dare to go out right now and simply attempt to set up the conditions for kusala and work really hard at it and think that this is what we call wholesome effort? Sincerely, Scott. #105326 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:55 pm Subject: Re: anatta, no-control Meditation truth_aerator Hello Scott, all, >"scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > I hardly expected you would join in, but thanks. Regarding: > > Scott: Yes, how very true. Who indeed repeats such absurd ? >arguments ad infinitum? Maybe because they were not answered, and the person either ignored them or threw dirt at the one who has asked? >It is very good that you find a supporter in Dieter. And Ven. Buddhaghosa Please answer these specific questions, quotations: There are favorable and unfavorable places for development of the path: "Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond, [edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not favourable. He should not live there. " - VsM IV,2 Even Abhidhamma quoted in VsM talks about development such as: VsM VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing. VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183). To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] There are such things as impediments: Ten Impediments: A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." - VsM III, 29 For development of Metta, Buddhaghosa has said: "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments* and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place." - VsM IX,1 Note: "should sever the impediments" and "he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place" . "Thirteen kinds of ascetic practices have been allowed by the Blessed One to clansmen who have given up the things of the flesh and, regardless of body and life, are desirous of undertaking a practice in conformity [with their aim]. They are: i. the refuse-rag-wearer's practice, ii. the triple-robe-wearer's practice, iii. the alms-food-eater's practice, iv. the house-to-house-seeker's practice, v. the one-sessioner's practice, vi. the bowl-food-eater's practice, vii. the later-food-refuser's practice, viii. the forest-dweller's practice, ix. the tree-root-dweller's practice, x. the open-air-dweller's practice, xi. the charnel-ground-dweller's practice, xii. the any-bed-user's practice, xiii. the sitter's practice. " -VsM II, 2 [after 4th Jhana]""With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance." - DN2 (see fruits of contemplative life starting with 4 Jhanas) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html ""Now, there is the case where a monk ? quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities ? enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation ? internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain ? as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress ? he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.066.than.html I understand that ascetic practices which were spoken so often in VsM, are sheer drop off for some. It is much more accomodating to believe in the teaching where no need for special effort, no need to sacrifice anything, where development can happen even while watching TV. Are KS students so gifted with so many accumulations that they don't need dhutanga and samadhi kammatthana practice? It is much more convenient and easy to not-exert, not to sacrifice any comfort, to have one's cake and eat it too... With metta, Alex #105327 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:03 am Subject: Re: anatta, no-control Meditation scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Last one and then over to you for more of the same. ;-) A: "...I understand that ascetic practices which were spoken so often in VsM, are sheer drop off for some. It is much more accomodating to believe in the teaching where no need for special effort, no need to sacrifice anything, where development can happen even while watching TV. Are KS students so gifted with so many accumulations that they don't need dhutanga and samadhi kammatthana practice?" Scott: These are such excellent questions, Alex. And it's not just now that I'm referring to, I mean, each of the hundreds and hundreds of times I see these questions and see how you brilliantly manage to reduce the oft stated position of 'KS students' to their true essence: no need for effort, no need to sacrifice anything, just watch TV, I'm in total awe at the way in which you roll right over whatever these hedonists are actually saying. I mean, thanks for this excellent service. And the way you imply so craftily that KS students are like so 'gifted' - amazing rhetoric. You're are literally devastating them. A: "It is much more convenient and easy to not-exert, not to sacrifice any comfort, to have one's cake and eat it too..." Scott: That's it, Alex. So true. I like the cake part. That you are the only one who sees through the smoke and mirrors and roots out the true message being expounded by these horrible people is a boon to us all. I hope you continue to say these things over and over again, refusing in the name of all that is true to ever actually consider what these people might actually be saying. It is so clear to intelligent readers that 'KS students' advocate the very 'do-nothing-let-it-all-hang-out' stance you so repetitively and righteously accuse them of. Sincerely, Scott. #105328 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex) - In a message dated 2/17/2010 3:42:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Alex, I was thinking more of modern-day teachings; we already know Buddhaghosa's stance on the Dhamma. You have raised the question many times and the answer has always been the same: all ancient commentaries take the view that the world is just the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. Despite conventional language that may seem to be talking about a world of control, we are to understand there is actually no world of control - no people or places, or things to do. Just dhammas! Ken H ==================================== It's hard to argue with someone who says that regardless of the fact that someone says A, he means B! That sort of brings discussion to an end. ;-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #105329 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:31 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Alex) - > > In a message dated 2/17/2010 3:42:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > kenhowardau@... writes: > > Hi Alex, > > I was thinking more of modern-day teachings; we already know Buddhaghosa's > stance on the Dhamma. You have raised the question many times and the > answer has always been the same: all ancient commentaries take the view that > the world is just the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. Despite > conventional language that may seem to be talking about a world of control, we are > to understand there is actually no world of control - no people or places, > or things to do. Just dhammas! > > Ken H > ==================================== > It's hard to argue with someone who says that regardless of the fact > that someone says A, he means B! That sort of brings discussion to an end. > ;-) > > With metta, > Howard Hello Howard, KenH, Scott, all, It makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion with those who claim that VsM (or even the suttas) as authoritative yet ignore or totally reverse the meaning of clear states. As I understand it, the commentaries such as VsM were meant to explain the Buddha's teaching in more detail, so there are no double meaning. They are consistent with the suttas that there IS formal things to be done. I haven't seen any reasonable rebuke, only sarcastic replies for clearly spelled out teaching in VsM about 10 impediments VsM III, 29 18 faults of monastery VsM IV,2 , the 13 kinds of ascetic practices, etc. I can see how "do nothing, watch TV" teaching is very accommodating to 21 century Westerners. Of course it is such a sheer drop off to give up everything and become a monk living in a charnel ground, wearing robes made from clothing of dead people, eating once a day - and no sex. These dhutanga, and even tame meditation retreats may look like outdated and antique methods... Well, why did the Buddha gave up his wealth, status and power? Why so many of his kinsman gave up everything if it was unneeded, and lived in remote jungles and caves? Even metta is recommended to be done in seclusion: "A meditator who wants to develop firstly lovingkindness among these, if he is a beginner, should sever the impediments* and learn the meditation subject. Then, when he has done the work connected with the meal and got rid of any dizziness due to it, he should seat himself comfortably on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place." VsM IX,1 All wise and clever remarks of someone here about "how can you develop metta without others" is not what authoritative ancient commentaries say. Ten Impediments: A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." VsM III, 29 With metta, Alex #105330 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:28 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ptaus1 Hi Alex, Scott, Howard, KenH, Dieter, all, With respect to all, I get the feeling that people are still talking past each other due to unnecessary polarisation of the argument. E.g. imo when Scott, KenH and others warn against control, self, etc, they are not dismissing dhutanga, metta, samatha, etc, as conventional activities, but they are warning us of 2 things: - that these can happen on the ultimate level as kusala or akusala cittas - either way, both are entirely conditioned Thus, imo, conclusions that they are advocating against metta, samatha, dhutanga, etc, are nothing but extreme polarisation of the argument that is misleading and does not further a helpful discussion. In a similar manner, when Alex, Dieter and others say that samatha, metta, dhutanga and other conventionally termed activities can be done, imo they are referring to the kusala way of these things happening in a fully conditioned manner. Thus, imo, conclusions that they are advocating a self that does this, etc, are also an extreme polarisation of the argument that is misleading and does not further a helpful discussion. Of course, it is impossible to say whether these conventional activities like meditation/reading suttas are actually happening in kusala or akusala way in a particular instant in someone else's life, but I don't see why that should be an obstacle for a helpful argument, or for assuming that someone's approach is always akusala (self references) or that someone is very advanced (references to advanced K.S. students), which is again nothing but unnecessary polarisation of the issue. I also feel that Alex and others who frequent other buddhist boards need to note that the ultimate terminology has been used on dsg for a long time and seems to be preferential for many users, as well as that the manner of expressing anatta is negativistic - i.e. expressions like "no intentional effort possible" is used to point out that there's no self-view behind kusala effort when it arises, not to negate the necessity to develop effort, panna, or whatever. I fully understand that some would prefer to express anatta in a positivistic manner, as in, "one should do dhutanga, metta, mediatation, etc", by that having in mind that these happen when kusala cittas arise, but, you have to understand that people who use negativistic terminology will immediately assume you are referring to self who does these things, so akusala, so perhaps try an make it more clear what you're trying to say. Likewise, people who prefer negativistic terminology also need to understand that others will generally assume you are advocating nihilism, so again perhaps try and make it more clear what you're trying to say. Basically, I'm just hoping that we can all see through the problems of semantics and try to understand eachother a bit better. Best wishes pt #105331 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:47 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" truth_aerator >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > Hi Alex, Scott, Howard, KenH, Dieter, all, > > With respect to all, I get the feeling that people are still talking past each other due to unnecessary polarisation of the argument. > > E.g. imo when Scott, KenH and others warn against control, self, etc, they are not dismissing dhutanga, metta, samatha, etc, as conventional activities, but they are warning us of 2 things: > - that these can happen on the ultimate level as kusala or akusala cittas > - either way, both are entirely conditioned > Thus, imo, conclusions that they are advocating against metta, samatha, dhutanga, etc, are nothing but extreme polarisation of the argument that is misleading and does not further a helpful discussion. > Hello Pt, I agree with what you have said above. Please note: I have *not* been talking about atta or control. Of course all bhavana, dhutanga and so on are impersonal processes that in retrospect can be analyzed as series of kusala cittas. I do not reject this, and this wasn't what I've argued against. What I do reject is the notion "since all things are anatta. Any sort of action [even with right views] is wrong." But hey, there is nothing wrong with watching TV and engaging fully in daily life. I also reject the overly simplistic notion that always when a person does dhutanga, or bhavana, it is *always* with wrong view. Often these things can be done with wrong views (same for daily life, maybe even more so with daily life). But bhavana, dhutanga SHOULD be done and CAN be done in a kusala way with right views of anicca,dukkha,anatta, no control, etc. Many modern meditation masters also do not teach the caricature of "lets make panna arise through Self-control". With all of this said. I do not think that real wisdom is the wisdom that *just* allows one to write books, earn PhD degrees and discuss the philosophy at a coffee table. Real wisdom leads to real practical results of cessation of avijja, tanha, dukkha and fetters. IMHO is is much easier and more convenient to develop "intellectual" wisdom rather than "boring" practical wisdom that leads to Nibbana but not PhD degrees. It is much easier to count other peoples cows rather than one's own. It reminds of the restless monkey swinging of Dhamma trees. Even Buddha's teaching can be misused. It is like a boat to be used.Buddha's teaching is not a boat that one studies, learns all about seafaring, navigation, shipbuilding but never uses the boat to cross the sea. With metta, Alex #105332 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:05 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" kenhowardau Hi Alex, ----------- <. . .> A: > Please explain these 13 ascetic practices (dhutanga): <. . .> please explain the fact that there are favourable and unfavourable places for development: -------------- In ultimate reality there are no places, but there are dhammas. Some dhammas perform the function of thinking. The dhammas of a jhana meditator will tend to think about suitable and unsuitable places. -------------------- A: > Sure one can refuse to acknowledge the whole and look at the parts that one calls "ultimate". But other than intellectual hide and seek, or burying one's hand in the sand, it doesn't change the fact that certain actions are to be done and certain actions are not to be done. --------------------- Just as "a suitable place" will be thought about, so too "a suitable action" will be thought about. But that doesn't change the fact that, ultimately, there are no thoughts and no actions, only dhammas. --------------------------------- A: > Of course it is possible to metaphysically speculate about "world of ultimate particles". ---------------------------------- The Dhamma is not speculation. It is the way things are. ------------------------------------------------ A: But if the hammer falls on your toe, IT DOES HURT. No matter what paramattha teaching says, it is empirically not recommended to drive into a tree at 100 km/h. ------------------------------------------------- Please don't be so quick to dismiss the Abhidhamma, Alex, give it some wise consideration. The Abhidhamma can show you a reality in which there are no hammers and no toes, and in which hurt - physical pain - is just a fleeting cetasika that arises in vipakka cittas. Ken H #105333 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:55 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" kenhowardau Hi pt, --------- <. . .> pt: > With respect to all, I get the feeling that people are still talking past each other due to unnecessary polarisation of the argument. --------- I think the argument is *intrinsically* polarised. That's why I was hoping some of us could return to the subject of Ajahns Chah and Brahms and their teachings. I think those teachers were/are teaching a Dhamma that is intrinsically different from the one in the Pali texts. ------------------- pt: > E.g. imo when Scott, KenH and others warn against control, self, etc, they are not dismissing dhutanga, metta, samatha, etc, as conventional activities, but they are warning us of 2 things: - that these can happen on the ultimate level as kusala or akusala cittas - either way, both are entirely conditioned Thus, imo, conclusions that they are advocating against metta, samatha, dhutanga, etc, are nothing but extreme polarisation of the argument that is misleading and does not further a helpful discussion. ------------------- Yes, our argument is taken out of the middle, where it belongs, :-) and made to look like one of the extremes. ------------------------------- pt: > In a similar manner, when Alex, Dieter and others say that samatha, metta, dhutanga and other conventionally termed activities can be done, imo they are referring to the kusala way of these things happening in a fully conditioned manner. Thus, imo, conclusions that they are advocating a self that does this, etc, are also an extreme polarisation of the argument that is misleading and does not further a helpful discussion. ------------------------------ I think I know what you mean, and you are trying to be helpful. As I see it, however, someone must [unknowingly] be advocating a self. There is only one middle way, and so, when two teachings are different, one or both of them must be a kind of atta view. ----------------------------------- pt: > Of course, it is impossible to say whether these conventional activities like meditation/reading suttas are actually happening in kusala or akusala way in a particular instant in someone else's life, ----------------------------------- If by "meditation" you are referring to the formal practice by that name then I would have to disagree with you. Belief in formal meditation is wrong view. A person could not possibly be having kusala consciousness while, at the same time, holding to a wrong view. I hope I haven't undone your good work. :-) Ken H #105334 From: Lukas Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:52 am Subject: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" szmicio Dear Alex, Those are concepts, they can condition right understanding and all kind of kusala. In my life, I learned very much kamma is conditioned, when people smile or act in particular way, I can feel how this is very conditioned. I just see different concepts how they work on me, I dont need to introduce any Self, any Lukas to be a good guy. I've noticed, if less Self than mind is much more peaceful. I can say: I take my rest with life. 'NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats.' This is true. But not for me, not now. Best wishes Lukas Alex wrote: What is your opinion on Venerable Buddhaghosa? He had a lot of positive things to say about ascetic practice, keeping virtues, samadhi and panna. For example 13 ascetic practices [VsM II, 2] are very beneficial and are good for worldlings and trainees to do [VsM II, 78]. Notice, "to do". "Gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place" are not mental states (though mental states are also required, and attachment to household is a certain kind of unwholesome non-empty mental state) that you can develop anywhere, even on the coach. [VsM VIII,145] After all, the Ten Impediments are: A dwelling, family, and gain, A class, and building too as fifth, And travel, kin, affliction, books, And supernormal powers: ten." [VsM III, 29] And even some monasteries are still unfavorable. This shows that there are Favourable and unfavourable places. As to unfavourable monastery VsM - IV,2 : "Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. These are: largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond, [edible] leaves, flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. [119] One with any of these faults is not favourable. He should not live there. " HE SHOULD NOT LIVE THERE. Ven. Buddhaghosa is making a statement of "thing to do". Sever the impediments, and live in a favourable monastery, etc etc. I am not saying that you should do this. All I am pointing is that "things to be done, places to avoid" IS part of the Teaching. "Thirteen kinds of ascetic practices have been allowed by the Blessed One to clansmen who have given up the things of the flesh and, regardless of body and life, are desirous of undertaking a practice in conformity [with their aim]. They are: i. the refuse-rag-wearer' s practice, ii. the triple-robe- wearer's practice, iii. the alms-food-eater' s practice, iv. the house-to-house- seeker's practice, v. the one-sessioner' s practice, vi. the bowl-food-eater' s practice, vii. the later-food-refuser' s practice, viii. the forest-dweller' s practice, ix. the tree-root-dweller' s practice, x. the open-air-dweller' s practice, xi. the charnel-ground- dweller's practice, xii. the any-bed-user' s practice, xiii. the sitter's practice. " -VsM II, 2 "4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable. " - VsM II, 78 NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats. VIII,145. "'Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, gone to the forest or to the root of a tree or to an empty place, sits down; having folded his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him" - Anapanasati VsM VIII VIII,153. Gone to the forest ...or to an empty place: this signifies that he has found an abode favourable to the development of concentration through mindfulness of breathing. VIII,158. Herein, gone to the forest is gone to any kind of forest possessing the bliss of seclusion among the kinds of forests characterized thus: 'Having gone out beyond the boundary post, all that is forest' (Ps.i,176; Vbh. 251), and 'A forest abode is five hundred bow lengths distant' (Vin.iv,183) . To the root of a tree: gone to the vicinity of a tree. To an empty place: gone to an empty, secluded space. And here he can be said to have gone to an 'empty place' if he has gone to any of the remaining seven kinds of abode (resting place).42 [271] #105335 From: "Mike" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:34 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" mikenz66 Hi KenH, > >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah (Mike and all), > > > >I hope Mike, Dieter, Alex and others will continue discussing the >teachings of respected Buddhist teachers. It would be good to go >through some point by point. Then we could see who was teaching >satipatthana (right understanding of a presently arisen conditioned >dhamma) and who wasn't. > > > >Or, leaving personalities aside, we could see when a teaching was >satipatthana and when it wasn't. It is really important to know >this. Well, I would, but I can't think of anything new to say. Such discussions always seems to come back to (some) KS students re-stating the propositions that: "Because of anatta such-and-such is not possible..."; and "Obviously the Buddha never taught a method...". The teachings of essentially every other Buddhist teacher that I know anything about will automatically be incorrect by that measure, so there really isn't any need to discuss the finer points of their teachings... Metta Mike #105336 From: Lukas Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:16 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" szmicio Dear Alex >What I do reject is the notion "since all things are anatta. Any sort of >action [even with right views] is wrong." But hey, there is nothing wrong >with watching TV and engaging fully in daily life. L: This notion of no control, is true condition to have more and more kusala, and to acting more and more in a right way. Long ago, I was thinking I can devlop metta I can have more metta, I was trying to be a metta guy, but there was so much Self involved, that this wasnt metta at all. But now after living with Dhamma i learned more on anattaness and no control, I know all moments are conditioned. Poeople cannot get metta, this is conditioned element, and learning this in life we can have more and more true metta, so natural, that we just smile that this is not ours. we are free. If you develop anatta-sannja in your life more and more even on intelectuall level you will have more metta and you will develop more kusala. Right understanding is supreme. This is the best kusala you can do. When I am crossing a street or talking to my mom, I could not choose any word, this is all conditioned. I just see how different words goes through the mind. This choosing words happen because of conditions. Some poeple can have more pleasant speach and feel like really choosing. And some has less good speach. This is all conditioned. Now what is a condition to develop more kusala? this is hearing and listening to Dhamma, this is only a concept that makes us DO things. This all needs to be natural. Best wishes Lukas #105337 From: "Mike" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:28 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" mikenz66 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > L: This notion of no control, is true condition to have more and more kusala, and to acting more and more in a right way. Long ago, I was thinking I can devlop metta I can have more metta, I was trying to be a metta guy, but there was so much Self involved, that this wasnt metta at all. But now after living with Dhamma i learned more on anattaness and no control, I know all moments are conditioned. Poeople cannot get metta, this is conditioned element, and learning this in life we can have more and more true metta, so natural, that we just smile that this is not ours. we are free. Mike: I don't disagree with anything in the above paragraph. However, at the risk of being repetitive, this is what ALL mediation teachers that I know are actually aiming to get through to their students. It's an insight that many approaches sooner or later lead to (including, of course, the AS approach). Metta Mike #105338 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:31 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ptaus1 Hi Alex, Thanks for explaining your position. > A: What I do reject is the notion "since all things are anatta. Any sort of action [even with right views] is wrong." But hey, there is nothing wrong with watching TV and engaging fully in daily life. > > I also reject the overly simplistic notion that always when a person does dhutanga, or bhavana, it is *always* with wrong view. pt: I don't think that anyone has *really* said such things to mean exactly what you are accusing them of. Granted, KenH and others do sometimes word their sentences like that, but I believe them to refer (in negativistic manner of expression) to akusala cittas in those instances, not the conventional activity as such. I believe they also explain it with accumulations - if there are enough accumulations for these things (dhutanga, jhana, etc) to happen naturally (with kusala), they will happen, but not everyone will have these accumulations, nor needs to have them for liberation to happen. And even if someone says such things, it's ok to disagree once reasonable grounds for argument have been exhausted. By the way, was your nick on e-sangha Seeker of dharma? Mine was pt1, I have a question for SOD about something we discussed about a year ago (if that was you, sorry if not you). Best wishes pt #105339 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:24 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ptaus1 Hi KenH, > K: I think the argument is *intrinsically* polarised. You might be right there. I now see why it's so important to keep reminding each other about the middle way so as not to fall into extreme views/arguments, as you suggest: > K: Yes, our argument is taken out of the middle, where it belongs, :-) and made to look like one of the extremes. > K: As I see it, however, someone must [unknowingly] be advocating a self. There is only one middle way, and so, when two teachings are different, one or both of them must be a kind of atta view. pt: I think this is a very important observation. I.e. until stream-entry we're all going to be influenced in arguments by the undetected atta-view to some degree, which means we're bound to swing in one extreme or the other from time to time. I.e. sometimes we might mistake attachment to certain practices (so, self view or eternalism) for kusala bhavana, while at other times we might mistake attachment to no-self view (so, nihilism) for insight into anatta characteristic of a dhamma. > K: If by "meditation" you are referring to the formal practice by that name then I would have to disagree with you. Belief in formal meditation is wrong view. A person could not possibly be having kusala consciousness while, at the same time, holding to a wrong view. pt: Glad we can disagree here. My difficulty with the above statement is that it pretty much equals the statement like "formal meditation is always the right thing to do" (so, kusala). I.e. both statements take up a conventional activity like "formal meditation" or "studying texts" and equate it with an ultimate reality - a/kusala citta. Both statements seem to completely ignore the conditioned nature of all dhammas. I.e. as I understand it, nobody can make quadrillions of cittas involved in a conventional activity be all kusala or all akusala, as they are conditined and do not fall under control of a self of some sort. > K: I hope I haven't undone your good work. :-) pt: I think it's always good to hear clarifications of positions even if they disagree - at least we know what exactly we disagree on rather than arguing about misperceived meanings that weren't really expressed by anyone in the first place. So thanks for clarifying your position. Glad to discuss further if you like. Best wishes pt #105340 From: "ptaus1" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:45 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ptaus1 Hi Mike, > Mike: I don't disagree with anything in the above paragraph. > However, at the risk of being repetitive, this is what ALL mediation teachers that I know are actually aiming to get through to their students. It's an insight that many approaches sooner or later lead to (including, of course, the AS approach). pt: In my experience, AS approach is the only one I came across so far that introduces anatta right at the start, and aggressively so in a way. In all the other approaches I came across, anatta is introduced much more gradually. I think that's because beginners are easily scared off by anatta (I certainly was). That's why, from experience, I'd tend to agree that most beginners in most other approaches in the west are initially only exposed to practicing a form of yoga, or some sort of relaxation/concentration techniques that are mistaken by beginners for Buddhism. Whether those techniques can serve at some point as a spring-board for entering buddhism with anatta at its core, I don't know, it's debatable. As a beginner I'd like to think that they can, but it's also very likely that they are just more of self-view reinforcement. Best wishes pt #105341 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary jonoabb Hi KenO (105257) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > ... > KO: I know its about understanding. That is why I keep emphasising on what are conditions for one to embark on the 40 samadhi subject. But could you denied there is no method or practise. It is written very descriptively in Visud, things like eights ways in recollecting death, sevenfold skill in learning, there were detail instructions. Detail instructions is a method of practise just like a guide book on how to use our electronic equipment. > =============== J: OK, let's take as an example the recollection on the Buddha, as explained in Vism. Would you ay there is a method or technique of practice involved there? > =============== > >J: To my understanding, samadhi without panna will not result in the development of samatha and thus would not condition rebirth in the rupa planes. > > KO: sorry I shortcut my method I mean without Buddha panna, > =============== J: OK, but 'Buddha panna' would be satipatthana, I think. Samatha can be developed to jhana level without that. > =============== > KO: AS talks about panna of differentiating kusala and akusala. To me that is only part of the story. It should more than that, it is also panna to understand the danger of sense objects. Thus leading to a withrawal of sense object to attain jhanas. > =============== J: Yes, but I was wondering about the connection between, say, a kasina and the development of the panna that understands the danger of sense objects. Any thoughts to share? Jon #105342 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:57 pm Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 jonoabb Hi pt (105268) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > ... > pt: I'm still trying to understand this in detail. When awareness knows a dhamma, there seem to be several ways in which this happens (perhaps depending on level of development) which don't have to be mutually exclusive and can have varying intensity/depth: > > 1. knowing which dhamma is experienced as distinct from some other dhammas - i.e. knowing that what I just became aware of is dosa (or whatever name one gives it), not lobha, nor viriya, etc. > > 2. knowing that the particular dhamma is kusala or akusala > > 3. knowing the anatta characteristic of that dhamma > > 4. knowing the arising and falling of that dhamma. > > Please add if I missed anything. > > =============== J: To my understanding of the texts, in general terms, the development of awareness/insight begins with awareness of dhammas as either nama or rupa and progresses to awareness of the individual characteristics of dhammas and then to an understanding of the 3 characteristics in relation to dhammas. > =============== > From what you, Nina and KenO said, it seems number 4 definitely belongs to stages of insight and pativedha. > =============== J: All moments of direct awareness, as opposed to the awareness that accompanies a correct intellectual understanding of the teachings, are moments of patipatti. > =============== > I'm not sure about number 3 - can recognition of anatta of a dhamma happen in patipati? I would think so because even the most basic realisation conventionally expressed as "hey I'm angry right now" requires a little bit of stepping away from the actual anger (so a little bit of seeing anatta in it), > =============== J: Awareness of the kind we are discussing cannot arise in someone who has not heard in this lifetime the teachings on satipatthana (including in particular on dhammas and their characteristics). So it is something of a different order altogether than the realisation conventionally expressed as "hey I'm angry right now". While the person who has that realisation may not totally identify with the anger, neither there any sense of the anger being just an impersonal element occurring because of appropriate conditions. > =============== otherwise there'd be total identification with the anger and one would just go on being angry without realizing it until the anger passes. > =============== J: If there is awareness of anger, it does not necessarily mean that the anger would then cease or reduce (if that is what you're implying). As Lukas recently reminded us, the aim is to understand dhammas, not to have less arising akusala. Jon #105343 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) jonoabb Hi pt (105267) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > ... > pt: In that sense, what you are saying is that the four conditions/activities expressed conventionally are not the actual cause of kusala - the actual cause (condition) of present kusala (like panna for example) is - what? Kusala dhammas that happened in the past, right? > =============== J: Yes, the accumulation of kusala in the past is obviously a very important factor. But accumulated tendencies remain latent unless there is an occasion for their manifestation. In the case of panna (of the satipatthana type), that manifestation cannot occur unless the individual has heard the teachings on satipatthana in the present lifetime. Also, unless panna has been developed to a high degree in previous lives, the teachings have to be heard in detail, over and over again. Hence the 4 factors mentioned by the Buddha as factors for the development of the path: - association with right persons - hearing the true dhamma - reflection on what has been heard and understood - practice in accordance with the teachings. > =============== > In that sense, what is the purpose of singling out any particular activity - I mean it seems as if you are saying that conventional 'association with the right person' is more conducive to arising of kusala than for example conventional seclusion (i.e. being physically alone). If both are just conventional activities that can ultimately be both kusala or akusala, then why single out one over the other? Ultimately there is no difference between the two activities, or is there? Thanks. > =============== J: The 4 factors given above are not activates. They are more in the nature of occurrences. (For example, the extent to which a person comes across the teachings appropriately explained for him/her, i.e., the first and second of the four factors, is largely a matter of vipaka.) If a person has heard about, and appreciates the significance of, these factors, the development of the path (the 4th factor) becomes possible. Each factor has the previous factor(s) as a prerequisite. Hoping this is clearer. Jon #105344 From: Lukas Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:38 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" szmicio Dear pt (Mike) >pt: In my experience, AS approach is the only one I came across so far that introduces anatta right at the start, and aggressively so in a way. In all the other approaches I came across, anatta is introduced much more gradually. L: Yes, but this could be called the teachings of emptiness. Other traditions than theravada had this emptiness stress I would say. So maybe this can go with other traditions more? I dont know mahayana, but I know mahayana goes with understanig of emptiness. >pt: I think that's because beginners are easily scared off by anatta (I certainly was). L: Yes but this is not always true. Some people can find a refuge in anattaness (when they suffers a lot), from the very begining. We really dont know how people will react. If there is so many teachers that teaches a gradual development this is good cause this is a good opportunity to teach more on anatta now. >That's why, from experience, I'd tend to agree that most beginners in most other approaches in the west are initially only exposed to practicing a form of yoga, or some sort of relaxation/concentr ation techniques that are mistaken by beginners for Buddhism. Whether those techniques can serve at some point as a spring-board for entering buddhism with anatta at its core, I don't know, it's debatable. As a beginner I'd like to think that they can, but it's also very likely that they are just more of self-view reinforcement. L:Than again, this is good to hear more on anatta. If they will not have an opportunity to hear a Dhamma, they would not change. Opportunity to hear a Dhamma is very precious. Best wishes Lukas #105345 From: Ken O Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Jon >J: OK, let's take as an example the recollection on the Buddha, as explained in Vism. Would you ay there is a method or technique of practice involved there? KO:? The 32 body parts, why dont you tell me why it is not a method?? To me understanding panna is also a method, just like 8NP is also a method, a way.? It is the way? how?the word practise?is used.? One should not be over concern whether a practise is used or not.? One should be concern with whether there is understanding of dhamma. >> ============ === > >J: OK, but 'Buddha panna' would be satipatthana, I think. Samatha can be developed to jhana level without that. KO:??Yes satiipatthana?is only the realm of Buddha and not other ascetics.? Other ascetics are unable to realise paramatha dhamma, without paramatha dhamma, there is no development?of satipatthana.? Without paramatha dhamma, one does not know the cause, the origination of our suffering, and these happened by conditions and not by a self.? >> ============ === > >J: Yes, but I was wondering about the connection between, say, a kasina and the development of the panna that understands the danger of sense objects. Any thoughts to share? KO:????One must?withdraw from sense objects before jhanas could work and not the other way round.?? There is no need for Buddha satipatthana to be withdraw from sense objects.?? When one see?pain and impermanence in sense?object, one could be?wtihdraw from it.?When one is withdraw,?the person selects a?kasina object that suit?his accumulations, that?would help the person to achieve jhanas, less aside other environment factors like quiet place.? But there must be proper conditions for this person to achieve jhanas.?? With metta Ken O #105346 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:30 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" truth_aerator Hello Pt, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, > > Thanks for explaining your position. > > > A: What I do reject is the notion "since all things are anatta. Any sort of action [even with right views] is wrong." But hey, there is nothing wrong with watching TV and engaging fully in daily life. > > > > I also reject the overly simplistic notion that always when a person does dhutanga, or bhavana, it is *always* with wrong view. > > pt: I don't think that anyone has *really* said such things to mean >exactly what you are accusing them of. That is good to hear. >Granted, KenH and others do sometimes word their sentences like >that, but I believe them to refer (in negativistic manner of >expression) to akusala cittas in those instances, not the conventional activity as such. I believe they also explain it with accumulations - if there are enough accumulations for these things (dhutanga, jhana, etc) to happen naturally (with kusala), they will happen, but not everyone will have these accumulations, nor needs to have them for liberation to happen. And even if someone says such things, it's ok to disagree once reasonable grounds for argument have been exhausted. > Of course dhutanga, jhana, etc, happen due to causes and conditions. Of course these things can be described as kusala cittas and so on and so forth without any self control. However, conventionally they DO happen, and these kusala cittas are kusala. To reject them simply by using same old "there are just namas and rupas" yet accept watching TV and akusala activities happening in Daily Life isn't that good. Just IMHO. Give a loaded gun to a cavemen and he will try to use it as a hammer to hunt his pray. Even the right teachings can be misused. Most meditation teachers (please tell me which do not) do emphasize Anatta and how not to fall into Atta & Control trap. I think that it is possible to fall into heedlesness with over emphasising the "no control part" and using it as a justification for any misbehaviour. For some cittas, it may condition WRONG behavariou, just like kusala events like Jhana may be based for akusala purposes. > By the way, was your nick on e-sangha Seeker of dharma? Mine was >pt1, I have a question for SOD about something we discussed about a ?>year ago (if that was you, sorry if not you). > > Best wishes > pt Yes it is me. Ask what you want (though my views change and thus not everything that I've said before I agree with today). With metta, Alex #105347 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:33 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear Alex > > >What I do reject is the notion "since all things are anatta. Any sort of > >action [even with right views] is wrong." But hey, there is nothing wrong > >with watching TV and engaging fully in daily life. > > L: This notion of no control, is true condition to have more and >more kusala, and to acting more and more in a right way. Long ago, I >was thinking I can devlop metta I can have more metta, I was trying >to be a metta guy, Hello Lukas, all, Of course no one can chose "let there be Metta!" . This is why there is a need for gradual practice (even if the practice involves systematic studying and considering). Best wishes, Alex #105348 From: Ken O Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ashkenn2k Dear Mike and pt Sincerely, the correct approach is to introduce anatta right at the start as all dhamma are anatta. By delaying this, other may choose to believe meditation is the key, but the key is understanding.. With understanding of anatta, one can live in dhamma and less of the world, then one really sees the true power of Buddha's dhamma and why it leads to salvation. Also and why the dhamma is just seeing, tasting, hearing, smelling, touching and thinking. it is a potent effect. when you are hitch on it, thats where the real living starts. That is why I appreciate A Sujin approach on dhamma, The more you listen and understand, the more you think like her and talk like her, because what she said is true, Seeing sees. Cheers Ken O > >From: ptaus1 >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thursday, 18 February 2010 7:45:11 >Subject: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" > > >Hi Mike, > >> Mike: I don't disagree with anything in the above paragraph. >> However, at the risk of being repetitive, this is what ALL mediation teachers that I know are actually aiming to get through to their students. It's an insight that many approaches sooner or later lead to (including, of course, the AS approach). > >pt: In my experience, AS approach is the only one I came across so far that introduces anatta right at the start, and aggressively so in a way. In all the other approaches I came across, anatta is introduced much more gradually. I think that's because beginners are easily scared off by anatta (I certainly was). That's why, from experience, I'd tend to agree that most beginners in most other approaches in the west are initially only exposed to practicing a form of yoga, or some sort of relaxation/concentr ation techniques that are mistaken by beginners for Buddhism. Whether those techniques can serve at some point as a spring-board for entering buddhism with anatta at its core, I don't know, it's debatable. As a beginner I'd like to think that they can, but it's also very likely that they are just more of self-view reinforcement. > >Best wishes >pt > > > #105349 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:41 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" truth_aerator Hello KenH, Pt, all, I do not deny that one can analyze (a mental activity, btw) into citta, cetasikas and rupas or into other schemes such as namarupa, 5 khandha, 12 ayatana, 18 dhatus. I like to do that myself. However none of this rejects the conventional reality, which does exist. When you are hungry you eat, and you avoid driving into trees at 100km/h. I do not reject that any act starting from Parricide at one extreme, and following a path to Bodhi in an empty forest, caves, charnel grounds can be analyzed and mentally dissected into fleeting nama and rupas. However, the mental analysis doesn't alter the fact that conventionally certain things do happen. This analysis doesn't change the fact that some activities are to be done, and some activities (like parricide) to be avoided at all costs - NO MATTER THE ANALYTICAL ANALYSIS. As you may know, certain ascetic teachers in india did say something like "since all wholes are made of parts, wholes do not exist. And thus there is no killer, no knife and no victim. One rupa just passes between other rupas." With metta, Alex #105350 From: "Dieter Moeller" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhutanga, Sila and practice in VsM moellerdieter Hi Scott, Alex and All, you wrote: D: "...There is obviously the possibility of awareness/mindfulness/sati that 'one can just decide to 'do'....we are talking about the development /the accumulation of sati due to this training , not waiting for its arising due to other conditions" Scott: Indeed. And thus you show that one of the main elements which conditions the arising of sati is, of course, the Self - a well known dhamma the belief in which was highly recommended by the Buddha. That the Pa.t.thaana fails to elaborate the Self as part of it's rather thorough-going description of conditionality shows clearly that you are totally on the right track with your thesis, and are thus in very good company with Alex, whom you so astutely support. For anyone to aver that the merest arising of sati - due to conditions other than the Self, naturally - is, in fact, the meaning of 'development,' is for him or her to be entirely off his or her rocker. D: well, well Scott .... don't we have here a good example of ego conceit..? .. you know that stubborn part of the (delusioned) Self , which is said being a fetter only overcome at Arahat level. You take a position - that of anatta - from which in reality you are only in your favorable imagination free of and hardly will be until you don't get that it is the training leading to (Khanda) detachment... insight needs to be found not to be assumed. You have any right to see that in a different way.. but don't claim the Buddha Dhamma for it. with Metta Dieter P.S. below acknowledged A: "I do not know who is talking here about overly simplistic view of 'control' where you can wish sati or panna and just make it happen. That cannot be because all is conditioned and doesn't listen to any non-existent Atta. What teachers teach it? I am not aware of any. It seems that you are attacking straw man arguments of your own making." Scott: Yes, how very true. Who indeed repeats such absurd arguments ad infinitum? It is very good that you find a supporter in Dieter. Together, I'm sure, the two of you will combine to be an awesome force which will no doubt succeed in setting the record straight on this whole convoluted area. That there can be such an obvious and blatant misreading of the thesis that one can actually act to set up the necessary conditions to cause the arising of kusala to mean that this implicates a Self is utterly and completely beyond the pale. Anyone who suggests such a heinous thing, and by so doing, erects something as ridiculously irrelevant as a straw man argument - which you so cleverly and insightfully suggest - will no doubt have you to answer to. A: "These straw man arguments would also be critiqued by modern meditation masters like Mahasi and Ajahn Brahm..." Scott: Wow. And who would think that such esteemed and fully accredited modern masters of meditation have misunderstood something like anatta and are therefore only paying lip-service to its full and deep meaning? I mean, who would dare to question that level of heavy-weight modern discourse? I would think that the names alone, leave aside the message, would deter anyone from actually thinking about what they actually say and considering whether this accords with anatta. After reading these words, who would even dare to go out right now and simply attempt to set up the conditions for kusala and work really hard at it and think that this is what we call wholesome effort? Scott: These are such excellent questions, Alex. And it's not just now that I'm referring to, I mean, each of the hundreds and hundreds of times I see these questions and see how you brilliantly manage to reduce the oft stated position of 'KS students' to their true essence: no need for effort, no need to sacrifice anything, just watch TV, I'm in total awe at the way in which you roll right over whatever these hedonists are actually saying. I mean, thanks for this excellent service. And the way you imply so craftily that KS students are like so 'gifted' - amazing rhetoric. You're are literally devastating them. A: "It is much more convenient and easy to not-exert, not to sacrifice any comfort, to have one's cake and eat it too..." Scott: That's it, Alex. So true. I like the cake part. That you are the only one who sees through the smoke and mirrors and roots out the true message being expounded by these horrible people is a boon to us all. I hope you continue to say these things over and over again, refusing in the name of all that is true to ever actually consider what these people might actually be saying. It is so clear to intelligent readers that 'KS students' advocate the very 'do-nothing-let-it-all-hang-out' stance you so repetitively and righteously accuse them of. . #105351 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:52 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" truth_aerator Dear Pt, KenH, All, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > pt: In my experience, AS approach is the only one I came across so >far that introduces anatta right at the start, Did the Buddha do that? There is such things as gradual discource which is a schedule that Buddha, Sariputta and others have used with great success. It is not only what one teaches, but how one teaches it as well. Right idea may be taught in an incorrect way and either misunderstood or rejected by the listener. Here is a typical schedule of a teaching for stream entry: Generosity (dana) Virtue (sila) Heaven (sagga) Danger of sensual pleasure (kamanam adinava) Renunciation (nekkhamma) The Four Noble Truths (cattari ariya-saccani)[2] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html Please tell me where conventional teaching stops and ultimate begins. At what point did the Buddha or Sariputta teach anatta? >I think that's because beginners are easily scared off by anatta (I >certainly was). Before there is basis in sila & samadhi, one may start getting wrong ideas of "so if there is nobody here, then there is no killer, no victim and no weapon of murder". Or that no need to make an effort at kusala. > That's why, from experience, I'd tend to agree that most beginners >in most other approaches in the west are initially only exposed to >practicing a form of yoga, or some sort of relaxation/concentration >techniques that are mistaken by beginners for Buddhism. Whether >those techniques can serve at some point as a spring-board for >entering buddhism with anatta at its core, I don't know, it's >debatable. As a beginner I'd like to think that they can, but it's >also very likely that they are just more of self-view reinforcement. > > Best wishes > pt > Deep samadhi both requires and develops wisdom. The bliss of meditation experientially shows the 2nd and 3rd noble truth. Also when the doer disappears, the deep samadhi shows the absense of will control or the Self. Some of the sutta teachings such as intention is like being overpowered and dragged by two strong men, I've felt in meditation (like being dragged by a leash attached to one's neck). These things cannot be felt in normal, mostly akusala, states of mind occupied with daily life. With metta, Alex #105352 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" truth_aerator Dear KenO, Pt, all >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Mike and pt > > Sincerely, the correct approach is to introduce anatta right at the >start as all dhamma are anatta. In the suttas we see something else: "Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the awareness of the entire assembly with his awareness, asked himself, "Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?" He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html Note: Buddha started his teaching from dana, then sila, and so on. By his talk on "he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation." it was like guided meditation. Jhana is temporary renunciation from sensual desires and other hindrances. When the recipient's mind was "ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright," which if isn't post Jhanic mind then definately in "access concentration", only then the Buddha taught 4NT. 1st NT: "Now what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful. "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth. "And what is aging? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. "And what is death? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. "And what is sorrow? Whatever sorrow, sorrowing, sadness, inward sorrow, inward sadness of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called sorrow. "And what is lamentation? Whatever crying, grieving, lamenting, weeping, wailing, lamentation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called lamentation. "And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain. "And what is distress? Whatever is experienced as mental pain, mental discomfort, pain or discomfort born of mental contact, that is called distress. "And what is despair? Whatever despair, despondency, desperation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called despair. "And what is the stress of association with the unbeloved? There is the case where undesirable, unpleasing, unattractive sights, sounds, aromas, flavors, or tactile sensations occur to one; or one has connection, contact, relationship, interaction with those who wish one ill, who wish for one's harm, who wish for one's discomfort, who wish one no security from the yoke. This is called the stress of association with the unbeloved. "And what is the stress of separation from the loved? There is the case where desirable, pleasing, attractive sights, sounds, aromas, flavors, or tactile sensations do not occur to one; or one has no connection, no contact, no relationship, no interaction with those who wish one well, who wish for one's benefit, who wish for one's comfort, who wish one security from the yoke, nor with one's mother, father, brother, sister, friends, companions, or relatives. This is called the stress of separation from the loved. "And what is the stress of not getting what one wants? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wishing. This is the stress of not getting what one wants. "And what are the five clinging-aggregates that, in short, are stress? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: These are called the five clinging-aggregates that, in short, are stress. "This is called the noble truth of stress. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html Where did the Buddha teach about "Conventional truth" and "Ultimate truth"? Key suttas seem to omit these things... Where does it say that Self doesn't exist. The conventional activities do not exist, etc etc. Anatta is something to be realized, not theorized or taught. IMHO, The Buddha's teaching is the best! With metta, Alex #105354 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:21 pm Subject: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" Netti truth_aerator Dear Lukas, Pt, KenO, RobertK2, all, Yes, understanding is crucial for the path. I never talked against it. The question arises, HOW does one understand Buddha Dhamma? Lets say that we belong to the "blunt" category. What does Netti says about people of blunt faculties? "The Blessed One advises one of blunt faculties with: advice in detail. Discloses a keen teaching of the True Idea to one of blunt faculties; discloses insight to one of blunt faculties; discloses gratification and disappointment and escape to one of blunt faculties. The Blessed One makes one of blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher virtue." Note the last sentence: "The Blessed One makes one of blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher virtue." Netti 587 Vs "the Blessed One makes one of keen faculties understand by means of the training in the higher understanding;" So training in higher virtue (rather than higher understanding) is what people of blunt faculties need and they need lots of detailed instructions. The VsM is very helpful about describing various sections on virtue and 13 dhutanga practices. =================== 587. Herein, the Blessed One advises one of keen faculties with advice in brief; the Blessed One advises one of medium faculties with advice in brief and detail; the Blessed One advises one of blunt faculties with advice in detail. Herein, the Blessed One discloses a blunt (light) teaching of the True Idea to one of keen faculties; the Blessed One discloses a blunt-to-keen teaching of the True Idea [101] to one of medium faculties; the Blessed One discloses a keen teaching of the True Idea to one of blunt faculties. Herein, the Blessed One discloses quiet to one of keen faculties; the Blessed One discloses quiet and insight to one of medium faculties; the Blessed One discloses insight to one of blunt faculties. Herein, the Blessed One discloses escape to one of keen faculties; the Blessed One discloses disappointment and escape to one of medium faculties; the Blessed One discloses gratification and disappointment and escape to one of blunt faculties. Herein, the Blessed One makes one of keen faculties understand by means of the training in the higher understanding; the Blessed One makes one of medium faculties understand by means of the training in the higher cognizance; the Blessed One makes one of blunt faculties understand by means of the training in the higher virtue. ===== So how exactly does one train in higher virtue? In the suttas the training in higher virtue (adhisila sikkha) is about restraint according to Patimokkha rules, keeping (227) monastic rules and seeing faults in the tiniest transgression. ""And what is the training in heightened virtue? There is the case where a monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is called the training in heightened virtue." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.088.than.html 4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 "Thirteen kinds of ascetic practices have been allowed by the Blessed One to clansmen who have given up the things of the flesh and, regardless of body and life, are desirous of undertaking a practice in conformity [with their aim]. They are: i. the refuse-rag-wearer's practice, ii. the triple-robe-wearer's practice, iii. the alms-food-eater's practice, iv. the house-to-house-seeker's practice, v. the one-sessioner's practice, vi. the bowl-food-eater's practice, vii. the later-food-refuser's practice, viii. the forest-dweller's practice, ix. the tree-root-dweller's practice, x. the open-air-dweller's practice, xi. the charnel-ground-dweller's practice, xii. the any-bed-user's practice, xiii. the sitter's practice. " -VsM II, 2 ======= The Buddha also knew the correct order of the path. He has started with "he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue..." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html "Such and such is virtue; such and such is concentration; and such and such is wisdom. Great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of concentration when it is fully developed by virtuous conduct; great becomes the fruit, great is the gain of wisdom when it is fully developed by concentration; utterly freed from the taints of lust, becoming, and ignorance is the mind that is fully developed in wisdom." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html Note: sila -> samadhi -> panna Only the most gifted, with keen faculties may be able to jump strait to panna, and only because they have had previous accumulations of sila or samadhi. Or they are able to quickly perfect sila & samadhi. Trying to jump strait to panna is like building a 2nd floor without completing the 1st floor and the base on which the building is to stand. Unstable foundation will make the whole building unstable. HASTE MAKES WASTE! I guess we need all the help and kusala that we can get. With metta, Alex #105355 From: "Mike" Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" mikenz66 Hi KenO --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Mike and pt > > Sincerely, the correct approach is to introduce anatta right at the start as all dhamma are anatta. By delaying this, other may choose to believe meditation is the key, but the key is understanding.. Mike: Putting aside the argument from Alex and PT that the Buddha didn't to this with people who were not ready, I have already explained that my teachers did talk about anatta etc basically from the start. Of course, you can continue to quibble about whether my teachers "really understand anatta properly" if you wish. To which I could equally pointlessly reply that I have no reason to believe your teachers have a better understanding than my teachers... Mike: Just to be clear, you're right that there is a lot of wishy-washy stuff out there masquerading as Dhamma. I'm certainly not defending that. It doesn't follow that all teachers are wishy-washy. Metta Mike #105357 From: Vince Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:kamma. cerovzt@... Dear Nina you wrote: > N: We have to differentiate ruupas conditioned by citta, such as when > frowning with dosa, and ruupas produced by kamma, such as eyesense, etc. > N: Not quite sure how you understand emptiness. I know in Mahayana it > means not the same as anatta, non-self. Shall we not rather use the > term anattaa, non-self? in Mahayana it means the same thing, non substantiality and non-self. I don't see Mahayana or Theravarada better or worse. In both ways there are eminent masters and good teachings. I know you are not a good knower of Mahayana and also you don't make such critics. Just I note that sometimes it's amazing seeing some people from their home-life perspective, how they are able to point some anatta misconception in Theravada or in Mahayana. It seems they believe such error remained invisible for thousand years and for many people who were engaged in practice in a degree that they cannot expect to reach in this life. I think it is really presumptuous. In both Mahayana and Theravada there are good masters with real understanding, and they are logically appreciative of many teachings of the other way. Because the goal of Mahayana and Theravada it's the same. > But before this can be realized there is a lot to be known and > investigated about the reality arising right now, such as seeing or > hearing. yes. Well, you have a lot of knowledge, and all what you says always it's very useful because it forces to think two times. I learn a lot with your comments. However, when you speaks in that way, it sounds to me as if the realization of anatta would be available only after acquiring a complete knowledge which in fact belongs only to arahants. I mean, of course I agree the learning and practice should be continued in any point of progress. But at same time I understand the realization of nibbana and anatta can appear in any situation for a person engaged in this way. Be optimistic regarding samsara is wrong because still there is not disenchantment. But I understand one should be optimistic regarding his practice to leave delusion. Not the same thing, I believe. > Remember what Ken O wrote: it took him long to really understand what > Kh Sujin meant by 'the seeing sees'. It sounds so simple, but before > it is really understanood that seeing is a mere dhamma and before the > idea of 'I am seeing' is eliminated. We still have a feeling that I > see. There has to be a lot of attention to the characteristic of > seeing right now, hearing right now before there is more > understanding. We think we know, we think we understand, but in > reality understanding is so weak. It is abig step into the right > direction if we see how much we cling to an idea of I see, I hear. We > are so used to these ideas since long. I have to hurry along now, > taking a break. yes, I agree there is need of a long time. But, Who knows the applied time in the past?. What's the real meaning of "long time"?. In this life we are following the Dhamma. And it means that already a very "long way" has been walked. Today we are following the Dhamma then we are that turtle who is finally in the surface. So now we are the only authors of the short or the long. Sometimes we can awake after a short sleep, and in that moment we don't know if we have been sleeping 1 hour or 4. Time is dependent of the belief in a -self. In a similar way, we don't know how many hours is an "aeon". But we can know the aeon is the experience of the belief in the absence of an end in what we are living in the present moment. How many times we have been inside an aeon while being immersed in extreme pain or happiness. We build our owns aeons and then aeons can become real. I understand one should be careful with the absolute belief in time and aeons, the multiple lives to progress, and similar things. Not because false but because we don't know. Only a Buddha can know our efforts of the past and the restant efforts in the future. best wishes. #105358 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:35 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Lukas wrote: > > Dear pt (Mike) > > >pt: In my experience, AS approach is the only one I came across so far that introduces anatta right at the start, and aggressively so in a way. In all the other approaches I came across, anatta is introduced much more gradually. > > L: Yes, but this could be called the teachings of emptiness. Other traditions than theravada had this emptiness stress I would say. So maybe this can go with other traditions more? I dont know mahayana, but I know mahayana goes with understanig of emptiness. > --------- Hi pt, Lukas, Mike and all, You know how people ask "what were you doing when you heard President Kennedy had been shot?" I can remember what I was doing the first time I heard the true meaning of anatta. (I could probably find the exact paragraph of the book I was reading.) Being a mainstream Buddhist at the time, I didn't like this "no self" business at all! It took all the enjoyment out of Buddhism. So I chose to ignore it: work around it! :-) On joining DSG some 25 years later, I suddenly realised the need to backtrack - right back to that first hearing about anatta. And start again! Ken H #105359 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:06 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" kenhowardau Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> H: > It's hard to argue with someone who says that regardless of the fact that someone says A, he means B! That sort of brings discussion to an end. ;-) ------ The trick is to know that that "someone" was saying B all along. He never said A at all. Even in the conventional-language suttas, the Buddha was talking directly about paramattha dhammas. To some of us, it seems that he was talking about them indirectly. (We can't help thinking there are two realities, not just one.) And so we have to transcribe those suttas into Abhidhamma language. Ideally, however, we will see how all of the Buddha's words refered directly to paramattha dhammas. (IMHO) Ken H #105360 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:51 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > <. . .> > Well, I would, but I can't think of anything new to say. > > Such discussions always seems to come back to (some) KS students re-stating the propositions that: "Because of anatta such-and-such is not possible..."; and "Obviously the Buddha never taught a method...". The teachings of essentially every other Buddhist teacher that I know anything about will automatically be incorrect by that measure, so there really isn't any need to discuss the finer points of their teachings... -------- Hi Mike, I think you are right. I actually started going through those two A Chah quotes for a second time, point by point. The results are in my drafts folder but, although Sarah at least would still like to see them, I can't see how they are relevant. As you have said, "essentially every other Buddhist teacher will automatically be incorrect by that measure so there really isn't any need to discuss the finer points of their teachings?" I can't help but agree. Some parts of those quotes do seem identical with the Dhamma I am studying - you yourself have pointed to the similarities. And yet, if those teachers are not describing presently arisen realities - if they are instead prescribing courses of action - then they really aren't teaching the same things at all. No matter how close their words may seem on the surface! But that shouldn't get in the way of a good discussion. :-) Ken H #105361 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:55 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > ----- > <. . .> > H: > It's hard to argue with someone who says that regardless of the fact that someone says A, he means B! That sort of brings discussion to an end. ;-) > ------ > > The trick is to know that that "someone" was saying B all along. He never said A at all. > > Even in the conventional-language suttas, the Buddha was talking directly about paramattha dhammas. To some of us, it seems that he was talking about them indirectly. (We can't help thinking there are two realities, not just one.) And so we have to transcribe those suttas into Abhidhamma language. Ideally, however, we will see how all of the Buddha's words refered directly to paramattha dhammas. (IMHO) > > Ken H > Hello KenH, all, please tell me exactly which suttas talk about Buddha saying that He had two kinds of truth (ultimate and conventional) and that this is conventional and that is ultimate? Is He ever directly quoted as saying that there is ultimate truth and conventional truth? I will spare you the effort, in none. Two truths doctrine has emerged later on. Certainly something as important as teaching about distinction of paramattha sacca vs sammuti sacca should have been the mainstream teaching in the suttas. It ain't found there. But it is found in many later schools, including Mahayana. There isn't such distinction made in the suttas. I just did a e-search for these words. The start to be used in these contexts only in atthakatthas and certain later works that do not quote the Buddha. With metta, Alex #105362 From: Ken O Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ashkenn2k Dear Alex Buddha at time talk about kusala actions but most of the time it is satipatthana.?? It is citta that conditions kusala actions, so when he talks about virtue, we should note that?he could be talking about the cittas that conditions such behaviour.?? Just like in?Visud, sila is always talk first but not because it should be first, but because it is the most obvious and easy to understood as it is visible.? >Where did the Buddha teach about "Conventional truth" and "Ultimate truth"? Key suttas seem to omit these things... KO:? suttas contains utlimate truth.? ?? Conventional truth is needed to teach the dhamma and just like now,? I cannot discuss dhamma with you without conventional words.? >Where does it say that Self doesn't exist. The conventional activities do not exist, etc etc. Anatta is something to be realized, not theorized or taught. > KO:? This is a very interesting question.??Conventional activities do exist but self does not.?? It is due to miccha ditthi, self exist.? ?I think the Anattta sutta talk about?your isse.??Something in this line which is how I remember it <> Also the sutta you quoted, one cannot wish one does not grow old.? If there is a self, one would have prevent oneself from growing one.? But you cannot, so do I, so does Buddha.? No self could stop the growing old.? But this is difficult to see due to the words used conventionally in suttas and the conventional societal norms that emphasis on individuality.? ? We must cross this barrier that there is no self that could exercise authority over dhammas.?? >IMHO, The Buddha's teaching is the best! KO:? To know Buddha teaching is the best is?panna.? You have it.?? With metta Ken O #105363 From: Ken O Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" Netti ashkenn2k Dear Alex I am ok with your questions.? When you keep asking questions about the dhamma, it is your panna wanting to know more.? this is the spirit of development of the panna.???Some may know what we are talking after a while, some may not at all.???It is the?interest of learning the dhamma that matters because it would condition future accumulations for the growth of panna. I felt you are holding on the believe there is sila first, then samadhi, then panna.? Now why we said it is panna first because all actions and thoughts arise from nama. It is not the behaviour that is the underlying factor, it is the consciousness that condition these actions that matters.? Only with the?thought of aversion, one will?be angry and that condition the verbal actions to scold people harshly.? There must a cause, a condition for doing aksuala sila and doing kusala sila. If you only abstain the actions without understanding the dhamma that cause that actions, one would be tired easily and also discourage easily because one find these actions keep coming back.??? But if you understand dhamma, one will not be discourage or tired easily because panna is patient and strives.? With understanding of dhamma one know that?akusala sila?are condition by?accumulations, will arise when?there were appropriate conditions and not because there is a self that condition these?akusala sila.??? This is base on my personal experience as I learn Buddhism started like you thinking sila first.?? If you put panna as first, then you will start seeing changes in your dhamma development.? Little by little you start to find yourself changing even though bad habit die hard.? You will also find yourself little by little more aware of these bad habit.? ? Be patient? Ken O #105364 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/18/2010 8:08:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ----- <. . .> H: > It's hard to argue with someone who says that regardless of the fact that someone says A, he means B! That sort of brings discussion to an end. ;-) ------ The trick is to know that that "someone" was saying B all along. He never said A at all. ---------------------------------------------------- Geez, I just missed out on that special insight, Ken! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------------- Even in the conventional-language suttas, the Buddha was talking directly about paramattha dhammas. To some of us, it seems that he was talking about them indirectly. (We can't help thinking there are two realities, not just one.) ----------------------------------------------------------- No, I definitely there's only one, just not the same one you think it is. :-) --------------------------------------------------------- And so we have to transcribe those suttas into Abhidhamma language. Ideally, however, we will see how all of the Buddha's words refered directly to paramattha dhammas. (IMHO) Ken H ================================ With much metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #105365 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - A typo - correct with bracketed word: In a message dated 2/18/2010 9:42:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: No, I definitely [think] there's only one, just not the same one you think it is. :-) With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #105366 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" Netti truth_aerator Dear Ken, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > >I felt you are holding on the believe there is sila first, then >samadhi, then panna.? As I understand it, sila is mastered first. Based on mastered sila, samadhi can really be solidified. With strong sila and samadhi, wisdom has a firm basis to arise. There is a difference between what is mastered first and what one learns first. Of course *all* steps of the way, be it dana, sila, dhutanga need to be done with right that one has at that time. Of course one must not forget anicca, dukkha, anatta, sunnata, DO, 4NT, etc. IMHO wisdom is not a body of knowledge, the one that you can talk about at a coffee table. Wisdom goes together with action. I agree that when one has wisdom, certain states will not arise. No personal effort here. True. I do not speculate that any Self does dana, sila, dhutanga, meditation. These words are helpful reference words for complex namarupic process. Of course the mental state is what counts. The body/rupa is ethically indeterminate. However at certain stages certain places are better than others. A person with weak panna may sink in a bad company or circumstances, while person with strong panna will not. As much as it is hard, some places offer better conditions than others. Blunt example: It is much harder to be aware of realities rather than concepts while being engaged in multi-tasking at a dinner table, watching TV and arguing with someone - all done "simultaneously". High thoughts about ultimate realities do seem to disappear when the boss unjustly screams at you or when some urgent mundane problems arise. For most non-aryan people, verbal and bodily precepts (dealing with other people) are more likely to be broken when one is in the human company. I just don't approve what some appear to say. IMHO systematic study, considering and being aware of realities in daily life - is a form of practice. With metta, Alex #105367 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---------- KH: > > . . We can't help thinking there are two realities, not just one. H :> No, I definitely think there's only one, just not the same one you think it is. :-) ------------ I hope we all think there is only one. :-) But thinking is a conditioned dhamma; right thinking can't be made to occur, and wrong thinking can't be made not to occur. I am sure we all have many forms of wrong thinking every day. It's no different from dana and sila: we all like to think of ourselves as generous and kind, but lobha and dosa come rolling in anyway. :-) Ken H #105368 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:07 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" kenhowardau Hi pt, ------- KH: > >If by "meditation" you are referring to the formal practice by that name then I would have to disagree with you. Belief in formal meditation is wrong view. A person could not possibly be having kusala consciousness while, at the same time, holding to a wrong view. pt: > Glad we can disagree here. My difficulty with the above statement is that it pretty much equals the statement like "formal meditation is always the right thing to do" (so, kusala). I.e. both statements take up a conventional activity like "formal meditation" or "studying texts" and equate it with an ultimate reality - a/kusala citta. -------- Yes, but what is the thinking behind those concepts? The thinking behind Dhamma study could be either unwholesome or wholesome, couldn't it? Unwholesome thinking would see it as something to be "done" (controlled by atta) in order to bring about "desired" (lobha) results. Wholesome thinking would see it as a part of normal daily life that may, or may not, be an outward sign of pariyatti-panna (a kusala conditioned dhamma and factor leading to enlightenment). Similarly, with the idea of sitting in formal vipassana meditation: unwholesome thinking would see is as something to be done in order to bring about desired results. Wholesome thinking would see it as . . . . . What? Sitting, standing or walking in a prescribed manner is not an outward sign of a factor leading to enlightenment, is it? Nor is observing the various thoughts (concepts) that come into the mind. Nor is ridding the mind of all noticeable thoughts. Nor is concentrating on a pain (or itch or distracting sound or any other concept) until it is no longer distracting. . . Can you think of any way in which formal meditation could be undertaken with kusala citta? Ken H #105369 From: Ken O Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ashkenn2k Dear Mike Sorry if I am not clear. It is never my intention to compare any teachers. Not useful in any dhamma dicussion because people tends to be defensive. I discuss dhamma. Right view is the forerunner in any development. That is my intention on that message. thanks Ken O >> >> Dear Mike and pt >> >> Sincerely, the correct approach is to introduce anatta right at the start as all dhamma are anatta. By delaying this, other may choose to believe meditation is the key, but the key is understanding. .   > >Mike: Putting aside the argument from Alex and PT that the Buddha didn't to this with people who were not ready, I have already explained that my teachers did talk about anatta etc basically from the start. Of course, you can continue to quibble about whether my teachers "really understand anatta properly" if you wish. To which I could equally pointlessly reply that I have no reason to believe your teachers have a better understanding than my teachers... > >Mike: Just to be clear, you're right that there is a lot of wishy-washy stuff out there masquerading as Dhamma. I'm certainly not defending that. It doesn't follow that all teachers are wishy-washy. > >Metta >Mike > > > #105370 From: Ken O Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ashkenn2k Dear Alex there?are many misunderstanding in the natural development.? >Of course these things can be described as kusala cittas and so on and so forth without any self control. However, conventionally they DO happen, and these kusala cittas are kusala. To reject them simply by using same old "there are just namas and rupas" yet accept watching TV and akusala activities happening in Daily Life isn't that good. Just IMHO. KO: The natural development is not an excuse for one to watch TV or indulge in akusala behaviour, if that is then it is not the correct natural development.? Natural development means that one does not purposedly try to gain panna as panna is anatta.? The natural development is to read,?listen, investigate?and consider dhamma.? Understand kusala and akusala at the present moment when it arise.?? When there is understanding, there is development at the moment. thanks Ken O #105371 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:51 am Subject: Re: Dhutanga and Noble Eightfold Path. jonoabb Hi Alex (and Dieter) (105262) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > "4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 > > NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) for non-Arahats. > =============== J: The Vism passage you have quoted does not mean that any purported dhutanga practice undertaken by a person must involve only kusala consciousness. In my view it means that any dhutanga practice *properly undertaken* is kusala; so it refers only to those moments that are in fact kusala consciousness. Jon #105372 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:54 am Subject: Re: Dhutanga, Sila and practice in VsM jonoabb Hi Alex (105289) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > Wisely reflecting comes prior to Satipatthana. See AN 10.61-62 > > "What is the supportive condition for the four establishments of mindfulness? The three right behaviours is the reply. " > > "What is the supportive condition for mindful awareness? Wise attention is the reply Bhikkhus, I say, even wise attention has a supportive condition. What is the supportive condition for wise attention? Faith is the reply" > > http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara6/10-dasakanip\ ata/007-yamakavaggo-e.html > =============== J: Yes, in the sutta you quote here, wise attention is given as a supporting factor for mindful awareness. But it does not say whether it is a supporting factor by virtue of arising prior to the awareness, or contemporaneously with it. In any event, in the sutta passage you originally quoted, the reference to "wisely reflecting" indicated that the person in question was developing awareness, and in my view it was this awareness rather than the (conventional) conduct being undertaken that accounted for the development. > =============== > ... > > The question being discussed is whether, according to the Buddha's >teaching, a certain level of sila and/or samadhi is a prerequisite >for beginning levels of awareness. > > ALWAYS is a supportive condition. > =============== J: Of course sila and samadhi are supportive conditions for the development of awareness; no argument on that point. But do you go further and say that, according to the teachings as you understand them, the development of awareness requires a certain level of sila or samadhi before it can begin (and, if so, what level would that be)? Jon #105373 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhutanga, Sila and practice in VsM jonoabb Hi Dieter (105319) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > > Hi Jon and Alex , > > just jumping in your exchange, hoping you don't mind .. > =============== J: Not at all. I'm used to being in the minority ;-)) > =============== > Jon wrote: I suspect our views differ here. To my understanding, "wisely reflecting" refers to the arising of satipatthana. > Now this is not something that one can just decide to "do". Awareness arises only to the extent that (a) it has been developed/accumulated in the past and (b) there are conditions for its current arising, such as the 4 factors we have mentioned and discussed before > > D: we are talking about the development /the accumulation of sati due to this training , not waiting for its arising due to other conditions > =============== J: I've not mentioned anything about 'waiting for its [sati's] arising'. That would clearly not be the Buddha's teaching. When you speak of sati arising due to training, I understand you to refer to a training that precedes, and is something other than, the actual arising of sati (for example, effort to have kusala). I appreciate that that is a conventional idea of what training involves. But to my understanding, it is not how the Buddha used the term. As in many other instances, he is using a conventional term in a particular way. Terms like effort, awareness, concentration, solitude, withdrawn, are all to be understood in the light of the rest of the teaching on dhammas. > =============== > Jon: My understanding is that there is no particular level of sila or >samatha required for the development of awareness to begin. > > (Alex: That is your understanding. The Buddha and Buddhaghosa had a vastly different ideas.) > > > D: Jon , Alex made a good choice of sutta sources to show you right understanding for this issue .. don't you agree it is wise to contemplate them? > =============== I'd be happy to discuss Alex's sutta references, but would prefer to do so one or two at a time. Please choose the one or two that seem to you to be the most apposite. Jon #105374 From: Lukas Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:27 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 szmicio Dear Jon, >J: If there is awareness of anger, it does not necessarily mean that the >anger would then cease or reduce (if that is what you're implying). As Lukas recently reminded us, the aim is to understand dhammas, not to have less arising akusala. L: This is exactly what I am thinking on now. We can learn more and more all realities are conditioned, not ours. Even they are akusala, very strong that are manifested now. This moments is gone. This is really conditioned. and we suffer cause we cannot control it. But we can learn less and less control in life as we learn about sankhara dhamma, conditioned dhamma. A lot of buddhists just say sankhara/ visankhara pramattha dhamma etc. But do we really understand sankhara dhamma? Do we want more speculative idea of sankhara/visankhara or maybe we want to learn more and more in life, that all is conditioned. each moment, it arises and fall away, this is conditioned. each moment of permorming an action is conditioned. The buddhist way is natural way of life, and sikkha and bhavana is made by understanding, knowing the conditions for development. The we are detachment more and more. The less Self in life is the supreme condition to more kusala. and than this is right effort. Then sankhara dukkha is known more and more, the kind of misery that due to all conditioned realities we suffers, we dont have control over them. I agree with Alex and Phil. The kusala development is possible, but this is not exactly the way they see this. This is more like knowing the conditions for development than any 'DOING'. The very tricky thing is this idea of Self, we were growoing with this idea from a long time, and always whatever we do we think that we've earn for this, we've done this because of our own eforts. this is very tricky. I remember my first steps on path. My friends drink a lot, and I was practicing buddhism and idint drink and pointing my attention to each kind kusala. Of course you know how this works ;> And I thought than I will have a benefit of my practice , those friends of mine they only drink and have a fan, they will not share merits.- I thought. This is what I was thinking, I believed so strong that all 'those mine efforts' will bring a merit in the future. But I was wrong, this is not like my effort, or I did something. I just simple noticed that this is only different conditions work on me. No I who did this or my will. Just different cetanas, inetention and yoniso/ayoniso manskaras arose and perfprm the Path. MMy friend asked me Lukas what did you do, please tell me that you are now better guy, you dont drink etc.? And I couldnt answer. I did nothing i said. This idea of Self, my effort that will bring me benefit this is tricky. if you could understand what i mean. I like to think of right friendship. This is more true to say: 'I had a good friend' then 'I did something particular'. This right friendship is the overall of the holy life. Just met right friend in Dhamma or read a Dhamma. And leave it all. The Dhamma will work on its own. We needs to take rest from this idea of Self. Best wishes Lukas Best wishes Lukas #105375 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:12 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ptaus1 Hi KenH, > KH: Yes, but what is the thinking behind those concepts? The thinking behind Dhamma study could be either unwholesome or wholesome, couldn't it? Unwholesome thinking would see it as something to be "done" (controlled by atta) in order to bring about "desired" (lobha) results. Wholesome thinking would see it as a part of normal daily life that may, or may not, be an outward sign of pariyatti-panna (a kusala conditioned dhamma and factor leading to enlightenment). pt: Agreed. > KH: Similarly, with the idea of sitting in formal vipassana meditation: unwholesome thinking would see is as something to be done in order to bring about desired results. Wholesome thinking would see it as . . . . . What? pt: Not sure, haven't had much experience with formal vipassana practices. My current conclusion is that it can work for beginners only as reverse-engineered process, or in other words, in spite of the method. I.e. we'd usually grasp at the method trying to arouse this or that insight, what would all be akusala, but even akusala is conditioned, so at some moment kusala would kick in occasionally on its own to recognise that trying to arouse this or that is, in fact, akusala. So that very recognition of attachment to results would be kusala. I only tried formal vipassana practices for a short while, and every time it happened like that. Don't know, maybe I was doing it wrong... > KH: Sitting, standing or walking in a prescribed manner is not an outward sign of a factor leading to enlightenment, is it? Nor is observing the various thoughts (concepts) that come into the mind. Nor is ridding the mind of all noticeable thoughts. Nor is concentrating on a pain (or itch or distracting sound or any other concept) until it is no longer distracting. . . pt: I don't really know, as I said, I don't think that these methods can really work for beginners, but, perhaps for those with advanced panna, vipassana happens naturally out of what you mention above. I.e. their panna is so strong that they can clearly detect when the method they're using is kusala and when it isn't, which would lead to some sort of samatha level and then vipassana would happen naturally from that, kind of like when vipassana happens on its own when exiting jhana. But, I don't really know, hard to tell without actually having had indepth experiences with such practices. > KH: Can you think of any way in which formal meditation could be undertaken with kusala citta? pt: Well, for me, when formal meditation is mentioned, I think of jhana development. In that case, as far as I can tell from experience, kusala moments are those that recognise the ocurring mental state as kusala or akusala. When there's no recognition, it's akusala. But slowly, the recognition seems to increase, and calm follows. Usually the first sign to tell that akusala is being confused with kusala is that calm disappears and instead of it there's a sort of subtle attachment to the concept of calm (if that makes sense) but this attachment can be seen to be subtly restless, so akusala can be recognised as such. This is not jhana yet, but I don't think it's vipassana either, as recognising anatta in all this is minimal I'd say - only as far as being able to detect the various states that arise as kusala or akusala, and so without being completely consumed by them (i.e. not knowing that it's akusala at the moment). Best wishes pt #105376 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:38 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" jonoabb Hi Mike (and KenH) (105335) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > ... > Such discussions always seems to come back to (some) KS students re-stating the propositions that: "Because of anatta such-and-such is not possible..."; and "Obviously the Buddha never taught a method...". The teachings of essentially every other Buddhist teacher that I know anything about will automatically be incorrect by that measure, so there really isn't any need to discuss the finer points of their teachings... > =============== This is the problem with discussing the teachings in terms of the interpretation given by other (absent) persons. It would I think be more fruitful to just discuss the teachings themselves, without reference to those other interpretations. It is the teachings as we have them that are the ultimate touchstone. Jon #105377 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:40 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" jonoabb Hi pt (105340) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > > Mike: I don't disagree with anything in the above paragraph. > > However, at the risk of being repetitive, this is what ALL mediation teachers that I know are actually aiming to get through to their students. It's an insight that many approaches sooner or later lead to (including, of course, the AS approach). > > pt: In my experience, AS approach is the only one I came across so far that introduces anatta right at the start, and aggressively so in a way. In all the other approaches I came across, anatta is introduced much more gradually. I think that's because beginners are easily scared off by anatta (I certainly was). That's why, from experience, I'd tend to agree that most beginners in most other approaches in the west are initially only exposed to practicing a form of yoga, or some sort of relaxation/concentration techniques that are mistaken by beginners for Buddhism. > =============== Well that was certainly not the Buddha's approach! ;-)). BTW, have appreciated your efforts to bridge the gap between the different approaches put forward on the list. Very constructive. Jon #105378 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary jonoabb Hi KenO (105345) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > ... > KO: The 32 body parts, why dont you tell me why it is not a method? > =============== J: Well in fact I do say that ;-)). To my understanding, the Vism description of the development of samatha with the 32 body parts as object is not meant as a method in the sense of a series of steps or activities to be followed, available to anyone who cares to try. > =============== > KO: One must withdraw from sense objects before jhanas could work and not the other way round. There is no need for Buddha satipatthana to be withdraw from sense objects. When one see pain and impermanence in sense object, one could be wtihdraw from it. When one is withdraw, the person selects a kasina object that suit his accumulations, that would help the person to achieve jhanas, less aside other environment factors like quiet place. But there must be proper conditions for this person to achieve jhanas. > =============== J: But you haven't explained how the object 'helps the person to achieve jhana'. Do you see it as being just a matter of concentrating on the object? Jon #105379 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:53 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" jonoabb Hi Alex (and pt) (105351) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > > pt: In my experience, AS approach is the only one I came across so >far that introduces anatta right at the start, > > Did the Buddha do that? > =============== Yes, I think he did. The gradual discourse is a discourse that was taught to persons who were completely new to the teachings (in that lifetime). It obviously encompasses the teaching on not-self. > =============== > Here is a typical schedule of a teaching for stream entry: > > Generosity (dana) > Virtue (sila) > Heaven (sagga) > Danger of sensual pleasure (kamanam adinava) > Renunciation (nekkhamma) > The Four Noble Truths (cattari ariya-saccani)[2] > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html > > Please tell me where conventional teaching stops and ultimate begins. > =============== I'm not sure I understand the question. I believe the whole of the gradual teaching would have been directed towards an explanation of dhammas. The description we have is just an outline summary, so there's no way of knowing what the actual contents were. > =============== At what point did the Buddha or Sariputta teach anatta? > =============== I don't know the answer (if indeed there was a 'point' at which anatta was brought up). I understand that the recipients of the gradual discourse were chosen because of their potential for immediate enlightenment, so they were all persons who had developed satipatthana to very high degrees in previous lifetimes. But one way or another the teaching on not-self must have been there, otherwise enlightenment would not have been possible. Jon #105380 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 2/18/2010 11:15:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, ---------- KH: > > . . We can't help thinking there are two realities, not just one. H :> No, I definitely think there's only one, just not the same one you think it is. :-) ------------ I hope we all think there is only one. :-) But thinking is a conditioned dhamma; right thinking can't be made to occur, and wrong thinking can't be made not to occur. I am sure we all have many forms of wrong thinking every day. It's no different from dana and sila: we all like to think of ourselves as generous and kind, but lobha and dosa come rolling in anyway. :-) Ken H =================================== Yes, thinking is conditioned, not self-caused, but episodes of particular thinking can themselves help change the propensity to think in a certain way, for good or ill. Present thinking conditions future thinking. Patterns of thinking can change, and volitional activities, including intentional mental acts, themselves of course conditioned by many factors including thinking itself and by study of good teachings, can lead to such change. But it is all just conditions having their effect. What else? Your statement that "right thinking can't be made to occur, and wrong thinking can't be made not to occur," however, is false. There is no agent or director in charge, certainly! But changing the pattern of thinking for good or ill is exactly what conditioning does! Awareness, due to study and observation, that certain ways of thinking lead to suffering and others to peace, conditions intention and enables intentional actions, including mindful attention to the nature of what is happening in the moment, that ease suffering and strengthen equanimity. With metta, Howard Right Effort "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is s killful.'" — _AN 2.19_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.019.than.html) #105381 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:15 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ptaus1 Hi Alex, Thanks for replying. I'll try to answer in this message to most of the issues you raise in several messages. > A: Of course dhutanga, jhana, etc, happen due to causes and conditions. > Of course these things can be described as kusala cittas and so on and so forth without any self control. However, conventionally they DO happen, and these kusala cittas are kusala. To reject them simply by using same old "there are just namas and rupas" yet accept watching TV and akusala activities happening in Daily Life isn't that good. Just IMHO. pt: I think the purpose of raising such examples was to point out that all cittas arise based on conditions, akusala cittas too, so instead of trying to fight them (with more akusala cittas based on self trying to achieve something), one should just be aware when it happens (when akusala arises) regardless of when it conventionally happens - watching tv, cooking, etc. That awareness is kusala. So, it's not about watching tv or not, but about is there awareness at the time or not. If not, then it's akusala cittas. > A: Most meditation teachers (please tell me which do not) do emphasize Anatta and how not to fall into Atta & Control trap. pt: I agree that most do, but, in my experience, not nearly as emphatically as here. > A: I think that it is possible to fall into heedlesness with over emphasising the "no control part" and using it as a justification for any misbehaviour. For some cittas, it may condition WRONG behavariou, just like kusala events like Jhana may be based for akusala purposes. pt: Agreed. > A: Yes it is me. Ask what you want (though my views change and thus not everything that I've said before I agree with today). pt: Thanks, I'll send you an email off list, as I think last time we discussed the subject by PM's. > A: Note: sila -> samadhi -> panna ... > There is such things as gradual discource which is a schedule that Buddha, Sariputta and others have used with great success. pt: I agree here in a way - once I tried to explain a bit about abhidhamma and anatta to a family member - it didn't work, but when I tried to do it in a sequence of 5 precepts, brahma viharas, jhanas, insight, anatta, then it worked. So, I also kind of have to agree with KenO and what others are saying - it's up to person's panna how much s/he can understand at the moment regardless of what is being thought - sila, samadhi or panna. As Lukas mentions, he could get anatta right from the start, I couldn't, etc. People are different. But I do agree that it's all about anatta in the end. I mean that is one distinguishing factor for me which separates buddhism from everything else, i.e. dukkha, anicca, jhana, brahma viharas, dana and sila were all known before the Buddha, but anatta wasn't. So I'd say anatta is his unique contribution to humanity. > A: Where did the Buddha teach about "Conventional truth" and "Ultimate truth"? Key suttas seem to omit these things... ... > Please tell me where conventional teaching stops and ultimate begins. ... > Where does it say that Self doesn't exist. The conventional activities do not exist, etc. pt: I guess most of this would be in the abhidhamma pitaka either directly or implied by talking about paramattha dhammas. I know you have your reservations about it, but this group (according to the home page) accepts it as equal to the other pitakas, so I don't see much point in raising that argument. > A: Anatta is something to be realized, not theorized or taught. ... > A: However, the mental analysis doesn't alter the fact that conventionally certain things do happen. This analysis doesn't change the fact that some activities are to be done, and some activities (like parricide) to be avoided at all costs - NO MATTER THE ANALYTICAL ANALYSIS. pt: I don't think there's anyone here who disagrees with you on this. I think when people use abhidhamma terminology or talk about anatta, even if they don't have direct realisation of it, it's still serves the purpose of pointing us to the way things would be experienced with direct insight. So, imo it's not done to encourage intellectual analysis but to encourage direct insight. Best wishes pt #105382 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:32 pm Subject: Re: Dhutanga and Noble Eightfold Path. truth_aerator >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex (and Dieter) > > (105262) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > "4. Herein, as to the profitable triad (see Dhs., p.l): all the >ascetic practices, that is to say, those of trainers, ordinary men, >and men whose cankers have been destroyed, may be either profitable >or [in the Arahant's case] indeterminate. [80] No ascetic practice >is unprofitable." - VsM II, 78 > > >NO ASCETIC PRACTICE IS UNPROFITABLE AND ALL ARE PROFITABLE (kusala) >for non-Arahats. > > =============== > >J: The Vism passage you have quoted does not mean that any >purported dhutanga practice undertaken by a person must involve only >kusala consciousness. In my view it means that any dhutanga >practice *properly undertaken* is kusala; so it refers only to those >moments that are in fact kusala consciousness. > Jon Of course, Jon. Dhutanga as anything needs to be done with wisdom. So is anyone interested in talking about this chapter of VsM on how to do it with wisdom. With metta, Alex #105383 From: A T Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:37 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" truth_aerator Dear Pt, Jon, all, >J: Hi Alex (and pt) > > (105351) >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" >wrote: > > ... > > > pt: In my experience, AS approach is the only one I came across so >far that introduces anatta right at the start, > > > > Did the Buddha do that? > > =============== > >J: Yes, I think he did. The gradual discourse is a discourse that >was >taught to persons who were completely new to the teachings (in >that >lifetime). It obviously encompasses the teaching on not-self. >J:I understand that the recipients of the gradual discourse were >chosen >because of their potential for immediate enlightenment, so >they were >all persons who had developed satipatthana to very high >degrees in >previous lifetimes. An interesting side note is that some people achieved Stream Entry (Supabuddha the leper for example) through that lecture alone. So it is possible for Awakening to happen quickly if the conditions are right. Aeons may not be required. There is not much evidence that lets say Supabuddha the leper had much learning or satipatthana. He was in hell for a long time prior to meeting Buddha Gotama because in in pre-previous life he has spat on private Buddha and ended up roasting in Hell. There are other stories of people who have done bad deeds, were reborn in hell or animal realms, and then reborn as humans who have met the Buddha and became Awakened (some became arhats). To me this puts in doubt the idea of later idea that one needs to gather a lot of paramis over many aeons. Sure that the certain accumulations of good Kamme need to be there to be reborn as someone capable of maggaphala, with good enough kamma to meet the Dhamma and be able to follow it. So it may not require as hard path as some claim. Infact the big role of accumulations is to encounter and be able to understand Buddhas teaching and to understand it. The rest may take 7, 8, more or less lives. So it can be done! Ven. Sariputta & Ven. MahaMoggallana belonged to another sect, with a non-Buddhist teacher. Yet when Sariputta met Assaji and heard Buddha's teaching, he became a stream winner. To me this puts in doubt the commentarial story of really long parami path. If they've gathered so many paramis following Buddha's teaching, would they go to another teacher? IMHO the bigger part of parami gathering is already done, and that is to meet the Buddha's teaching and be capable of understanding it. > > =============== > >A: Here is a typical schedule of a teaching for stream entry: > > > > Generosity (dana) > > Virtue (sila) > > Heaven (sagga) > > Danger of sensual pleasure (kamanam adinava) > > Renunciation (nekkhamma) > > The Four Noble Truths (cattari ariya-saccani)[2] > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html > > > > Please tell me where conventional teaching stops and ultimate begins. > > =============== > >I'm not sure I understand the question. I believe the whole of the >gradual teaching would have been directed towards an explanation of >dhammas. The description we have is just an outline summary, so there's >no way of knowing what the actual contents were. > > > =============== >A: At what point did the Buddha or Sariputta teach anatta? > > =============== > > I don't know the answer (if indeed there was a 'point' at which anatta >was brought up). But one way or another the teaching on not-self must >have been there, otherwise enlightenment would not have >been possible. > Jon That sutta tells us that exclusive teaching of the Buddha started from 4NT. 4NT do not seem to emphasize "no beings, no killer, no one who is killed, no weapon of murder, nothing can be done, etc". I do agree with anatta, no-control, etc but maybe there is some merit in the way that the Buddha has taught it? Again, a good teacher knows how to best teach the students. Even the best teaching can be misunderstood if not taught correctly. > A: Most meditation teachers (please tell me which do not) do emphasize >Anatta and how not to fall into Atta & Control trap. >pt: I agree that most do, but, in my experience, not nearly as >emphatically as here. I believe that the Buddha was The Best teacher. But reading the suttas it seems that he was very careful as to how and when he presented Anatta. He is no where quoted as saying that "Self doesn't exist" (natthatta) and when he was asked that question point blank, He refused to answer it. To his monks in some suttas He and Sariputta have occasionally have said that Tathagata is not found as existing in reality [ thus how can He be anihhilated]. But it is still a carefully phrased word that He rarely tought. 99.9% of the time, the listener had to figure this out. The 20+2 wrong Self views do reject Self. But they themselves do not make a direct statement. A teacher needs to know how to explain something in the most effective way the subtle teachings. Sometimes saying things that may be correct, but saying out of time and in wrong contexts, can be misinterpreted. Some people here have IMHO used very unfortunate ways to say some things. > A: Of course dhutanga, jhana, etc, happen due to causes and conditions. > Of course these things can be described as kusala cittas and so on and >so forth without any self control. However, conventionally they DO >happen, and these kusala cittas are kusala. To reject them simply by >using same old >"there are just namas and rupas" yet accept watching TV >and akusala >activities happening in Daily Life isn't that good. Just >IMHO. >pt: I think the purpose of raising such examples was to point out that >all >cittas arise based on conditions, akusala cittas too, so instead of >trying to >fight them (with more akusala cittas based on self trying to >achieve something), >one should just be aware when it happens (when >akusala arises) regardless of >when it conventionally happens - watching >tv, cooking, etc. That awareness is >kusala. So, it's not about watching >tv or not, but about is there awareness at >the time or not. If not, >then >it's akusala cittas. It is good to hear that explanation. Otherwise some people made it sound like KS teaches "do whatever you want. Attachment is akusala, even to 5 precepts, meditation and so on. There isn't a murderer a victiom or the weapon... To resist akusala urges is bad... etc etc". Some teachers DO talk quite a bit about making sure that a meditator does not react in akusala way to something that arises in Meditation. ANd of course they teach that meditation cannot be controlled, there is no Self, no-control, and how to observe satipatthana. >J: But do you go further and say that, according to the teachings as you >understand them, the development of awareness requires a certain level >of sila or samadhi before it can begin (and, if so, what level would >that be)? If person has commited 5 anantarika kamma, he cannot achieve any superhuman states in this and next life. If a person has strong kilesas then s/he cannot become an aryan. Sila, Dhutanga, and meditation can hold them in check to allow wisdom to shine through and eventually uproot the kilesas. Theoretically speaking it is possible to make a sure strong resolution to keep sila and thus perfect it within one lecture of the Buddha (see Supubuddha story for example). Prior development of sila & samadhi helps with this. Actually meeting the Buddha and receiving specially tailed teaching is a big factor which we miss today. Without it we may need more help and skillful effort. Some gifted people may or may not require much of sila-samadhi for certain stages. But if we aren't stream-winners yet, it is more likely that we are of the more inferior kind, required MORE not less help and support. There is a difference between bare minimum [for the brightest, quickest and most gifted students, who have also met the Buddha] and what is actually required in our case. IMHO. With metta, Alex "Once, monks, in this very Rajagaha, Suppabuddha the leper was the son of a rich money-lender. While being escorted to a pleasure park, he saw Tagarasikhi the Private Buddha going for alms in the city. On seeing him, he thought, 'Who is this leper prowling about?' Spitting and disrespectfully turning his left side to Tagarasikhi the Private Buddha, he left. As a result of that deed he boiled in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, many hundreds of thousands of years. And then as a result of that deed he became a poor, miserable wretch of a person in this very Rajagaha. But on encountering the Dhamma & Discipline made known by the Tathagata, he acquired conviction, virtue, learning, relinquishment, & discernment. Having acquired conviction, virtue, learning, relinquishment, & discernment on encountering the Dhamma & Discipline made known by the Tathagata, now — on the break-up of the body, after death — he has reappeared in a good destination, the heavenly world, in company with the devas of the heaven of the Thirty-three. There he outshines the other devas both in beauty & in glory." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html "Endowed with these six qualities, a person is incapable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even when listening to the true Dhamma. "He is endowed with a [present] kamma obstruction (Kamma-varan.ata-ya), a defilement obstruction (kilesa-varan.ata-ya), a result-of-[past]-kamma obstruction (vipa-ka-varan.ata-ya); he lacks conviction (assaddho), has no desire [to listen] (acchandiko), and has dull discernment (duppañño). "Endowed with these six qualities, a person is capable of alighting on the lawfulness, the rightness of skillful mental qualities even while listening to the true Dhamma. Which six? "He is not endowed with a [present] kamma obstruction, a defilement obstruction, or a result-of-[past]-kamma obstruction; he has conviction, has the desire [to listen], and is discerning. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.086.than.html #105384 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:16 pm Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" kenhowardau Hi pt, ----------------- <. . .> KH: > Can you think of any way in which formal meditation could be undertaken with kusala citta? pt: > Well, for me, when formal meditation is mentioned, I think of jhana development. ----------------- For me, when formal meditation is mentioned, I think of belief in control-over-dhammas. ------------------------- pt: > In that case, as far as I can tell from experience, kusala moments are those that recognise the ocurring mental state as kusala or akusala. ------------------------- Yes, that's a good technical point, thanks. I think you are saying panna experiences the object of samatha consciousness (a kasina for example) with right understanding of kusala and akusala. So it's not a case of the kasina itself being rightly understood; it's more a case of a kasina being experienced by a consciousness that understands the difference between kusala and akusala consciousness. The part I have difficulty with is where you say, "as far as I can tell from experience." As you will know by now, I am very dubious of people's meditation experiences. :-) As I understand it, the first stage of samatha development would be to learn the *theory* of kusala and akusala consciousness. That would mean learning, for example, the difference between friendship and attachment, kindness and condescension, wisdom and pomposity, compassion and sadness . . . and so on. Every kusala state has an opposite that it can be easily confused with. Gradually, a person would be able to apply that theory to the present realities, but it would be very rare skill, extremely difficult to attain. As for progressing on to the stage of jhana absorption, or even access concentration, well, I think that is just too far fetched. I think it is beyond the realms of possibility for ordinary, fun-loving folk like us. ---------------------------- pt: > When there's no recognition, it's akusala. ---------------------------- Yes, I agree. Kusala can be either dana, sila or bhavana. Therefore, as you say, whenever a meditation practice does not contain panna (bhavana) it's probably akusala. (Since it's unlikely to be dana or sila.) ----------------------------------- pt: > But slowly, the recognition seems to increase, and calm follows. Usually the first sign to tell that akusala is being confused with kusala is that calm disappears and instead of it there's a sort of subtle attachment to the concept of calm (if that makes sense) but this attachment can be seen to be subtly restless, so akusala can be recognised as such. ----------------------------------- Yes, that makes sense. One way of identifying kusala consciousness would be from the feeling - either pleasant or neutral - that accompanied it. And a major problem lies in the fact that attachment (lobha) is also accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling! I think that emphasises the need to start samatha development from the beginning - understanding the theory of kusala and akusala - rather than picking it up at the identification-by-feeling stage. :-) ----------------------------------------------- pt: > This is not jhana yet, but I don't think it's vipassana either, as recognising anatta in all this is minimal I'd say - only as far as being able to detect the various states that arise as kusala or akusala, and so without being completely consumed by them (i.e. not knowing that it's akusala at the moment). ------------------------------------------------ I don't think it's vipassana either, but for a different reason. I think it's not vipassana because there still isn't right theoretical understanding of vipassana. Vipassana occurs by conditions. It does not occur by conventional activity. Formal meditation is a conventional activity. A person who believes in formal vipassana meditation does not have right theoretical understanding of vipassana. Ken H #105385 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:20 am Subject: The 5 Clusters! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What are the 5 Primary Categories of Being? I: There is the Cluster of Clinging to Material Form (Rupa): Form or materiality is composed of these 4 Primary Elements: 1: Solidity based microscopically on the force of extension. 2: Fluidity based microscopically on the force of cohesion. 3: Heat based microscopically on the property of vibration. 4: Motion based microscopically on the property of energy. From these 4 can be derived all other formed phenomena... Form (Rupa) in Buddhism is a quality, but not a substance... Whatever there are of formed things, whether past, present or future, internal or external, fine or gross, high or low, far or near, all these belong to this form group. Desire, lust craving and clinging to that, is the cluster of clinging to form! II: There is the Cluster of Clinging to Mental Feeling (Vedana): There are these five kinds of Feeling: 1: Bodily pleasant feeling and 2: Bodily painful feeling. 3: Mentally glad feeling and 4: Mentally sad feeling. And finally: 5: Indifferent feeling = Neither painful, pleasant, sad, nor glad. Feeling is born as effect of eye contact, or ear contact, or nose contact, or tongue contact, or body contact, or mental contact... Whatever there is of feeling, whether past, present or future, internal or external, fine or gross, high or low, far or near, all that belongs to this feeling group. Desire, lust, craving for, and clinging to these reactions, is the cluster of clinging to feeling! III: There is the Cluster of Clinging to Mental Perception (Sa~n~na): There are these six kinds of Perception: 1: Visual perception of form and colour. 2: Auditory perception of sound. 3: Olfactory perception of smell. 4: Gustatory perception of taste. 5: Tactile perception of touch. 6: Mental perception of ideas and states. Whatever there is of perception, whether past, present or future, internal or external, fine or gross, high or low, far or near, all that belongs to this perception group. Desire, lust, craving for and clinging to these perceived experiences, is the cluster of clinging to perception! IV: There is the Cluster of Clinging to Mental Construction (Sankhara): There are six kinds of mental construction dealing with visual objects, or hearable objects, or smellable, or tastable, or touchable objects, or thinkable objects. Whatever there is of mental construction, whether past, present or future, internal or external, fine or gross, high or low, far or near, all that belongs to this mental construction group. Desire, craving for and clinging to these objectives, is the cluster of clinging to construction! Wanting to see some special form is the mental construction of intention... V: There is the Cluster of Clinging to Consciousness (Vi~n~nana): There are six kinds of consciousness: 1: The Visual Consciousness of seeing. 2: The Auditory Consciousness of hearing. 3: Olfactory Consciousness of smelling. 4: Gustatory Consciousness of tasting. 5: Tactile Consciousness of touching. 6: The Mental Consciousness of thinking. Whatever there is of consciousness, whether past, present or future, internal or external, fine or gross, high or low, far or near, all that belongs to this very consciousness group. Desire, craving for and clinging to this aware recognition, is the cluster of clinging to consciousness! The Blessed Buddha said: Recluses and priests, who knows the causation, the ceasing, and the way leading to the ceasing of these five clusters of clinging, who are practicing for disgust towards these, for their fading away and dissolution, they are practicing well! They are later released and well liberated through this very non-clinging... Those who are well liberated are consummate ones, completed ones... There is no way of describing such utterly perfected ones... There is nothing in this or any Universe apart from these 5 Clusters of Clinging... If Clinging: How can one ever be Free? If Not Free: How can one ever be Happy? Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya XXII (56); [III 59-61] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 A Vast Ocean of True Dhamma Teaching! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Khandha On these Clusters! Have a nice, noble & relinquished day! Friendship is the Greatest! http://What-Buddha-Said.net The 5 Clusters! #105386 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:28 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ptaus1 Hi KenH, > > pt: Well, for me, when formal meditation is mentioned, I think of jhana development. > > KH: For me, when formal meditation is mentioned, I think of belief in control-over-dhammas. pt: :) That's why we have to be careful when using conventional terms - we say the same thing but mean entirely different things :) > KH: I think you are saying panna experiences the object of samatha consciousness (a kasina for example) with right understanding of kusala and akusala. So it's not a case of the kasina itself being rightly understood; it's more a case of a kasina being experienced by a consciousness that understands the difference between kusala and akusala consciousness. pt: Yes, I think so, because if it was a case of "kasina itself being rightly understood", then that would be vipassana, not jhana-development anymore. > KH: The part I have difficulty with is where you say, "as far as I can tell from experience." As you will know by now, I am very dubious of people's meditation experiences. :-) pt: No problems, one of the reason I'm here is so that people can poke my understanding of my own experiences, that's the best way to learn imo. So poke away :) > As I understand it, the first stage of samatha development would be to learn the *theory* of kusala and akusala consciousness. That would mean learning, for example, the difference between friendship and attachment, kindness and condescension, wisdom and pomposity, compassion and sadness . . . and so on. Every kusala state has an opposite that it can be easily confused with. pt: Agreed. Btw, where did you actually read about the opposites for every kusala dhamma? I'd be interested to read it too, because I only came across a similar list for near and far enemies of the 4 brahma viharas. > As for progressing on to the stage of jhana absorption, or even access concentration, well, I think that is just too far fetched. I think it is beyond the realms of possibility for ordinary, fun-loving folk like us. pt: I've communicated with a few people who seemed to have developed jhana. I mean when they describe it, it seems to be exactly like it's said in the Vsdm. However, some of these people were not particularly, well, wise. I mean they'd easily get irritated, especially when someone puts their opinions under question, etc. So, I kind of conclude that jhana shouldn't be that hard to develop since it can be done even if there's not much wisdom. But I guess it remains to be seen. > pt: > But slowly, the recognition seems to increase, and calm follows. Usually the first sign to tell that akusala is being confused with kusala is that calm disappears and instead of it there's a sort of subtle attachment to the concept of calm (if that makes sense) but this attachment can be seen to be subtly restless, so akusala can be recognised as such. > KH: Yes, that makes sense. One way of identifying kusala consciousness would be from the feeling - either pleasant or neutral - that accompanied it. And a major problem lies in the fact that attachment (lobha) is also accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling! > > I think that emphasises the need to start samatha development from the beginning - understanding the theory of kusala and akusala - rather than picking it up at the identification-by-feeling stage. :-) pt: Yes, that thing about pleasant and neutral feeling accompanying both kusala and akusala states is one of the major hurdles. That is actually why I was talking about restlessness instead. It's a cetasika in its own right and it arises with every akusala citta. Thus, it is easier to detect the difference between a/kusala states based on restlessness than on feeling. E.g. calm might be accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling, but attachment will be accompanied with restlessness beside the pleasant or neutral feeling, so the difference becomes obvious in that way. > KH: I don't think it's vipassana either, but for a different reason. I think it's not vipassana because there still isn't right theoretical understanding of vipassana. Vipassana occurs by conditions. It does not occur by conventional activity. Formal meditation is a conventional activity. A person who believes in formal vipassana meditation does not have right theoretical understanding of vipassana. pt: I think you are right in terms of vipassana. In my case though, I'm interested in jhana-development, so it's not supposed to be vipassana in the first place. Best wishes pt #105387 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:24 am Subject: Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) ptaus1 Hi Jon, Thanks for your reply. Yes, it's becoming more clear, thanks. > J: Yes, the accumulation of kusala in the past is obviously a very important factor. But accumulated tendencies remain latent unless there is an occasion for their manifestation. In the case of panna (of the satipatthana type), that manifestation cannot occur unless the individual has heard the teachings on satipatthana in the present lifetime. Also, unless panna has been developed to a high degree in previous lives, the teachings have to be heard in detail, over and over again. pt: Out of interest I've heard of anusaya as unwholesome latent tendencies, but what would be the opposite term for wholesome latent tendencies? > J: The 4 factors given above are not activates. They are more in the nature of occurrences. (For example, the extent to which a person comes across the teachings appropriately explained for him/her, i.e., the first and second of the four factors, is largely a matter of vipaka.) pt: This still seems a bit hard to accept. I mean, though you say that "occurrence" is not a conventional activity, it still doesn't seem like a dhamma to me, and as I remember from discussions with Scott, only dhammas can be conditiones for other dhammas. I'm also hesitant to call the first two factors "vipaka" in the strict sense as Sarah discussed with KenO recently. I mean, if we adopt the loose definition of vipaka, then quiet place or a noisy place may just as well be called vipaka in the sense of occurrences that might be a condition for panna to occur. So, could you perhaps explain a bit more in terms of what does "largely a matter of vipaka" mean? Thanks. Best wishes pt #105388 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nyanatiloka Maha Thera: Buddhist Dictionary ashkenn2k Dear Jon >> ============ === > >J: Well in fact I do say that ;-)). To my understanding, the Vism description of the development of samatha with the 32 body parts as object is not meant as a method in the sense of a series of steps or activities to be followed, available to anyone who cares to try. > KO:? There is a series of?step, like doing it verbally then mentally, that is a step, a method.? You could look it up in details in Visud.? Even when we talk about satipatthana sutta, about the body mindfulness, then feelings, these are consider steps.? If you do not think these are steps, I respect your opinion.? I felt there is nothing wrong with people saying these are steps or practises.? To me what is important, is for who and under what conditions.? When the accumulations suit the persons inclinations, it will naturally fall in place.?? These samatha methods are taught by Buddha, and the?importance is for who and what are?the conditions for it??My apology, I dont wish to discuss this with you. ? Why dont you ask A Sujin as you?more incline to believe in what she said.? So pse ask her, thanks Also honestly, I do not know why DSG are so perculiar about steps, formal meditations etc.? If?other wish to believe?that as that, so be it, its their accumulations.? Why should we be concern about?such words that are not even dhamma and not even for the understanding of dhamma.? These are just thinkings.? What matters is DSG ourselves must put effort in explaining dhamma and not argue over necessary words usage or the teachings of others.??? It is dhamma that helps.? I am not a mod?and it may not be my place to say this.? However I am concern over the discussions content of DSG.??Lately, it seems that we have become intolerant of others understandings.? I have?observed lately,?DSG?has?evolved into?chastising over usage of words like control, formal mediations, practise or self or give?unhelpful examples of anatta like?watching TV or there is no killer in killing, and?we are not explaining dhamma. As true believer of anatta, we cannot even live it and?set examples, to me it makes people?doubt us.? When people keep saying things that are contrary to our believe in dhammas, it is because?of their accumulations and understandings.??What?others said are just namas, and?IMHO, it our duties or?the role of DSG to?explain them? Again I must emphasis, we should explain dhamma.? When we live in dhamma and?believe in anatta, our words in the email will show it.? >> ============ === > >J: But you haven't explained how the object 'helps the person to achieve jhana'. Do you see it as being just a matter of concentrating on the object? > KO:??I have made this assertation that it is the withdrawal of the senses before one could achieve jhanas.? When there is understanding of these danger, there arise?kusala citta with panna (not?satipatthana).? When more kusala citta arise, samadhi will grow stronger and?concentration of the object will develop firmer.? This slowly lead to jhanas.? A difficult process unless?conditions are right.? And also the original statement I made is that jhanas?without saitpatthana only leads to rebirth on?rupa?and arupa planes.??? The detail process pse see Visud or again you could?ask A Sujin.? thanks Ken O #105389 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Monkey simile (was, Re: Nyanatiloka ...) ashkenn2k Dear pt Hence the 4 factors mentioned by the Buddha as factors for the development of the path: - association with right persons - hearing the true dhamma - reflection on what has been heard and understood - practice in accordance with the teachings. KO:? I agreed with what Jon said to a large extent, association with right persons and hearing the true dhamma is a matter of vipaka.? We must have the kusala?vipaka, to be born in the correct human realm, in the right country and in the right enviornment in order to hear the dhamma and associated with the right persons.?? Also?there could be many?who may not have that type of vipaka, may also heard the dhamma, some of them may them incline towards the teaching.? cheers Ken O #105390 From: Lukas Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:11 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" szmicio Dear pt, >pt: I agree here in a way - once I tried to explain a bit about abhidhamma >and anatta to a family member - it didn't work, but when I tried to do it in >a sequence of 5 precepts, brahma viharas, jhanas, insight, anatta, then it worked. L: In my opinion we should start from the point: no need to explain anything to others. The best way I found to help others is to not speak much on buddhism. In a small town i live, when I was speaking on buddhism, people had dosa. But later I stop speaking and they start to come. You told the abhidhamma doesnt work, but you can tell your family, now seeing and hearing. When they suffer you can tell of misery. How the buddha were free of dukkha. You can tell dukkha because of ignorance. You can tell Buddha was not religious teacher. But out of compassion he taught the teachings how to stop misery. People usually ask me wheather I suffer much cause of this and that, I told them this only looks like suffering, Even very unpleasant happenings, this does not bring suffering. They wonder how :> Please only dont give terms to your family. ;> Best wishes Lukas #105391 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:28 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" kenhowardau Hi pt, ------ <. . .> pt: > . . . I think so, because if it was a case of "kasina itself being rightly understood", then that would be vipassana, not jhana-development anymore. ------- Yes, I think I know what you mean. I might add (for the record) that a kasina is just a concept and therefore not an object of vipassana-citta. But, even so, learning the difference between concepts and realities is the first step in vipassana development. -------------------------------------- <. . .> pt: > Btw, where did you actually read about the opposites for every kusala dhamma? I'd be interested to read it too, because I only came across a similar list for near and far enemies of the 4 brahma viharas. -------------------------------------- I felt sure there was a long list of near and far enemies in the Files section. But all I could find on the subject were some Useful Posts about the brahma-viharas you mentioned. I hope one of the long-term DSG members will come to my rescue. There was a file, wasn't there? Initially posted in a thread by Num (or Sukin?) and later uploaded as a file. Or have I gone mad? ------------- <. . .> pt: > I've communicated with a few people who seemed to have developed jhana. I mean when they describe it, it seems to be exactly like it's said in the Vsdm. However, some of these people were not particularly, well, wise. I mean they'd easily get irritated, especially when someone puts their opinions under question, etc. So, I kind of conclude that jhana shouldn't be that hard to develop since it can be done even if there's not much wisdom. ------------- Ha, that caught me by surprise! I was expecting you to conclude that they hadn't been practising jhana at all! You are very trusting. :-) ------------------------- pt: > But I guess it remains to be seen. ------------------------- According to the texts, jhana-citta is an extrememly high form of kusala, exceeded only by satipatthana and vipassana. I don't think a jhana meditator would ever appear unwise or irritable. He would be, quite literally, saintly. -------------------------------- <. . .> pt: > Yes, that thing about pleasant and neutral feeling accompanying both kusala and akusala states is one of the major hurdles. That is actually why I was talking about restlessness instead. It's a cetasika in its own right and it arises with every akusala citta. Thus, it is easier to detect the difference between a/kusala states based on restlessness than on feeling. E.g. calm might be accompanied by pleasant or neutral feeling, but attachment will be accompanied with restlessness beside the pleasant or neutral feeling, so the difference becomes obvious in that way. ---------------------------------- Good point, yes, I remember seeing this explained once or twice before. Akusala and kusala happy (or neutral) feelings are inherently different (probably due, as you say, to the restlessness factor). ------------ <. . .> pt: > I think you are right in terms of vipassana. In my case though, I'm interested in jhana-development, ------------- Let me save you a lot of trouble, pt. If you have the accumulations for jhana development you will know it. When you see the correct explanations of jhana (in the Visudhimagga, for example) you will understand them immediately. There will be no confusion. Think of Sariputta; when he was a young householder he knew beyond doubt that if he ever heard the true Dhamma he would know immediately it was the true Dhamma. I am not saying you have to be as wise as Sariputta, and I realise we are talking about jhana, not Dhamma. But we can assume the same sort of principle would apply, don't you think? Ken H #105392 From: Ken O Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" Netti ashkenn2k Dear Alex >There is a difference between what is mastered first and what one learns first. > >Of course *all* steps of the way, be it dana, sila, dhutanga need to be done with right that one has at that time. Of course one must not forget anicca, dukkha, anatta, sunnata, DO, 4NT, etc. > >IMHO wisdom is not a body of knowledge, the one that you can talk about at a coffee table. Wisdom goes together with action. ? KO: In Visud, There are four aspect of virtue,? a.??? Virtue as volition is the volition present in one who abstains from killing living things etc,, or in one who fulfils the practise of the duties.? b.??? Virtue as consciousness-concomitant is the [three remaining] states consiting of non-covetuous, non iill-will and right view, c.??? Virtue as restraint should be understood here as restraint in five ways:? restraint by rules of the community (patimokkha), restraint by mindfulness, restraint by knowledge, restraint by patient and restraint by energy. d.??? Virtue as non-trangression is the non-trangression, by body or speech of percepts of virtue that have been undertaken. ? According to your points is that sila should be mastered first.? Now if we look at the description by Visud, for a,? for one to be abstain perfectly from the five precepts, one must be a sotapanna? for b. in order to have non-covetuous and non ill-will, one must be at least an anagami for c,? restraint by knowledge etc?that indicates the arisen of panna with sila for d.? For non-transgression,?the mastery only happen in Arahant, ? If we observe the four points, it requires wisdom.? It is not sila-samadhi-panna.? Rather it should be panna, with?the arisen of panna,?sila and samadhi will be kusala.? ? ? >I just don't approve what some appear to say. IMHO systematic study, considering and being aware of realities in daily life - is a form of practice. KO:? Its ok,? This way of development is not for everyone due to different accumulations. ? ? ? With metta Ken O #105393 From: "Mike" Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:37 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" mikenz66 Hi KenH, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > KH: l might add (for the record) that a kasina is just a concept and therefore not an object of vipassana-citta. But, even so, learning the difference between concepts and realities is the first step in vipassana development. Mike: That's my understanding too. As far as I understand the Visuddhimagga ALL objects that are said to lead to jhana are concepts (kasinas, metta, the breath nimitta, and so on). Mike: Objects that can be vipassana objects, such as the elements, do not lead to jhana, but can lead to access concentration. Mike: I believe it is a common observation that sila and samadhi tend to involve concepts. But vipassana isn't vipassana unless it deals with ultimate dhammas. Metta Mike #105394 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:04 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ptaus1 Hi Jon, > J: To my understanding of the texts, in general terms, the development of awareness/insight begins with awareness of dhammas as either nama or rupa and progresses to awareness of the individual characteristics of dhammas and then to an understanding of the 3 characteristics in relation to dhammas. > > All moments of direct awareness, as opposed to the awareness that accompanies a correct intellectual understanding of the teachings, are moments of patipatti. pt: Okay, so the 3 stages you mention above would then also be "direct awareness", and so patipatti, even if they happen before actual insight knowledges? > J: Awareness of the kind we are discussing cannot arise in someone who has not heard in this lifetime the teachings on satipatthana (including in particular on dhammas and their characteristics). So it is something of a different order altogether than the realisation conventionally expressed as "hey I'm angry right now". While the person who has that realisation may not totally identify with the anger, neither there any sense of the anger being just an impersonal element occurring because of appropriate conditions. > > > pt: otherwise there'd be total identification with the anger and one would just go on being angry without realizing it until the anger passes. > > J: If there is awareness of anger, it does not necessarily mean that the anger would then cease or reduce (if that is what you're implying). pt: Should have expressed it better - I meant in the sense that there will be no realisation that anger is happening at all, i.e. anger would proceed from arising to falling, and there would be no realisation that it was happening - so complete identification would have taken place. My point was though, if there's at least a bit of realisation that anger is happening, so a bit of disidentification, even if there's no understanding it as a conditioned impersonal element, does it not mean that there was still the knowing of individual characteristics of a dhamma (dosa, but without recognition of the tilakkhana)? Would this knowing not be equal to the second stage you mention in the first paragraph above (awareness of the individual characteristics of dhammas)? Thanks. Best wishes pt #105395 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:33 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ptaus1 Hi KenH, > KH: I might add (for the record) that a kasina is just a concept and therefore not an object of vipassana-citta. But, even so, learning the difference between concepts and realities is the first step in vipassana development. pt: Agreed. > According to the texts, jhana-citta is an extrememly high form of kusala, exceeded only by satipatthana and vipassana. I don't think a jhana meditator would ever appear unwise or irritable. He would be, quite literally, saintly. pt: I don't know really. I think some would be saintly based on actual wisdom. For others, if only jhana is developed, then their defilements should remain the same and should come back once the equanimity and contentment that jhana provides dissipate. I think Devadatta was a jhana master though not much of a saint. There were probably others, like the Buddha's attendant (before Ananda) who I think was also a jhana master but left for another sect and slandered the Buddha, etc. > KH: Let me save you a lot of trouble, pt. If you have the accumulations for jhana development you will know it. When you see the correct explanations of jhana (in the Visudhimagga, for example) you will understand them immediately. There will be no confusion. > > Think of Sariputta; when he was a young householder he knew beyond doubt that if he ever heard the true Dhamma he would know immediately it was the true Dhamma. > > I am not saying you have to be as wise as Sariputta, and I realise we are talking about jhana, not Dhamma. But we can assume the same sort of principle would apply, don't you think? pt: Probably, though it's hard to tell. I guess when something feels natural it's probably due to accumulations, though then awareness is needed to discern whether these are wholesome or unwholesome in a particular case. Best wishes pt #105396 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:34 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" ptaus1 Hi KenO and Lukas, Just wanted to say thanks for your thoughtful comments over the last few days. Much appreciated. Best wishes pt #105397 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:40 am Subject: Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta ptaus1 Dear Sarah and KenO, Thanks for your comments on this topic. > S: I'm not sure if my further comments will be of any help, but here goes: pt: Always helpful to know about a certain position in more detail if we don't have a clear picture from the texts themselves. > S: Likewise, for other key disciples, such as Sariputta -- he had accumulated great wisdom and had attained to the highest jhanas in his last life as taught by other teachers. However, until he heard the verse of the Dhamma, no vipassana nanas. > .... > S: Not in the case of the Bodhisatta:). Great wisdom, great kusala of all kinds being developed and a far longer path because of the magnitude of the task, but all insights that can only ever be 'discovered' by a Buddha. pt: I'm just wondering what "great wisdom" have the Bodhisatta and Sariputta accumulated in previous lives if not vipassana nanas? I mean what else is there beside nanas that classifies as "great wisdom"? KenO mentioned jhanas and the five direct knowledges, but I thought these more have to do with abhinnas than with actual wisdom. So, I'm just wondering what else is there besides these? Thanks. Best wishes pt #105398 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:21 pm Subject: Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, > Sorry, I'll have to pull out the texts below another time and that could be quite a while away as we'll be travelling for several weeks! Off early tomorrow morning for Bkk. > > In the meantime, perhaps Connie, Scott or others might be induced to pull out the texts (and/or audio tapes) to discuss further. pt: Thanks, there's no need to discuss this. I just thought you might find the references interesting, and if you do, then I'd be interested to know in what way. If you don't find anything interesting in them, no need to discuss. Best wishes pt #105399 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:38 pm Subject: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, A few very cryptic notes from our discussion this afternoon..... 1. Sorrow, grief, death of a dear one... Nina had told K.Sujin about the death of her brother. What is most precious to us? Only the 3 gems, i.e. the understanding of the Dhamma, doesn't bring grief. Everything else that we find precious does. Another moment....just like now.... All kusala and akusala accumulates, moment to moment, life to life. 2. Ann had sent Nina an interesting and detailed letter about various reflections on the nuances of conceit and how common it is in a day. Nina read it out and asked for K.Sujin's comments. "Just thinking", was her short answer. Was it wise intellectual thinking, Nina asked? "Just thinking". Thinking a lot about oneself, taking all the akusala for one's own. Accumulating more of such thinking.... (Ann, you might like to share your comments on list....sorry you couldn't join us here this time.) 3. Anatta and why people react strongly. "It's not what they like." People are more interested in other aspects, but then it's developing kusala for oneself, not for the sake of understanding dhammas. Without an understanding of anatta, it can never be the development just for the sake of understanding dhammas. Listening for the sake of understanding - that is the result of understanding. 4. Vince's questions on D.O. In order to understand dhammas, it must be one by one. D.O. - understand the characteristic of one dhamma, even if it's intellectual understanding, so that there's no doubt. These are realities right now to be known, otherwise it's just thinking about different words. For example, avijja now - understand it now. Now there is avijja which doesn't penetrate the nature of realities. Both kusala and akusala are conditioned by avijja because it hasn't been eradicated. This is D.O. 5. Dieter's question about KS's opinion about Ajahn Chah. She said she didn't know him. What about his views? She asked for an example. Someone mentioned sitting still, going to the forest. "No understanding", she replied. 6. A question about practice. "What is it? If they/you don't know about reality.....what is dhamma?" 7. I asked about the Dhp verse 61 some of us have been discussing about no companionship with the fools etc. It can't help if it conditions akusala. Associating with the wise, associating with right view. There can be right view anytime, of course. However, we can find out that bad friends can lead to problems and vice versa. Associating with wise friends - conditions for kusala more often. 8. Mr X and metta! Metta - friendliness, being ready to help, goodwill. "If you understand the meaning of enemy, you will understand metta". He doesn't know what dehamma is because metta is dhamma. Impossible to really understand while it's "my metta". "Why does he want to have metta?" Attachment. Lukas's examples. Anger, what conditions it? Lobha, just wanting....always wanting metta, panna, karuna, samadhi, etc. 9. Vittaka with right understanding - right vitakka. Because of right understanding, freedom from attachment, ill-will, cruelty and so on as we read about in the suttas - i.e when it's the 8-fold path. When there's panna, there's no akusala. 10. Sila, samadhi, panna. Can be sila without samadhi and panna, but when there's panna, must be sila and samadhi. Sila as foundation - sila can arise on its own. Sila visuddhi - with understanding as foundation. Sila as referring to the citta that conditions rupas (speech and deeds), cetana (intention), and sati (as in indriyasamvara sila). Many cetasikas with citta. All kusala cittas are sila. Sila as restraint. 11. Patimokkha, desana-sila. For the rules to be pure, there must be understanding about the point of observing them. It's not just a matter (for bhikkhus) of following the Patimokkha or observing sila, but must be with understanding, with indriyasamvara sila (guarding with sati). It depends on the cetana (intention) at different moments. 12. Abstaining from killing - kusala kamma patha. Different degrees, even up to abstaing from harming the one that will harm you. 13. Expectations when trying to understand what arises. 14. Samatha as opposite of attachment, vipassana as opposite of ignorance. **** Maybe Sukin, Jon (or Nina much later)will have more to add... Our next (English) discussions will be in Kaeng Krajan on Tuesday. Appreciating all the discussions on list! Metta Sarah =========