#105800 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Mar 7, 2010 7:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello Jon, Nina, Sarah, KenH, KenO, Scott, all, > > > J: Any kind of 'practice' that is not accompanied by panna will be >wrong practice. > > And who is telling here to practice without understanding? Which teacher says this, which sutta? > > Hi Alex, Why did you ask, "Which sutta?" Are you accusing us of something? Please explain. Ken H #105801 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 2:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Method in VsM ashkenn2k Dear Alex So you go just by tradition? Here we disagree. I believe that the Buddha did a good job at trying to be as clear as possible. Are you saying that Buddha didn't know how to teach and that His message needs to be commented and corrected by later monks? KO:? the commentary was done during Buddha's time and not afterwards.??? Buddhaghosa did not change the wordings except to add his own opinion but there is very rare in between.? I prefer traditions that do not change and done by ancient teachers.?? Cheers Ken O #105802 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Jon >> ============ === > >J: Any kind of 'practice' that is not accompanied by panna will be wrong practice. Panna cannot be made to arise whenever there is a period of formal practice. That's why I say there's a conflict between the ideas of (a) formal practice and (b) dhammas as 'not-self'. > >You have said that the panna is developed first (before the stage of the formal practice described in Vism). Hence my earlier comments. >> ============ === KO:?? As I said before, that is based on your intepretation that panna cannot arise with formal meditation.? Visud and Dispeller of Delusion said to the contrary of your intepretations.? >> ============ === > >J: I've not made any claims against the samatha vehicle as described in the Vism (I'm surprised you should be saying this at this stage of our discussion!! ). I've been giving my understanding/ interpretation of that text, which of course differs from yours. Perhaps there's been some misunderstanding. > KO:? What I am saying is that, you have to provide textual support for your interpretation as I have done mine. Cheers Ken O #105803 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 2:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Jon >> KO: The text does not support your conclusion. There were explicit instructions by the teacher to the students. >> ============ === > >J: My point was that the Dispeller is describing the guidance given by teachers to their students; it is not purporting to itself be a guide to persons wishing to develop samatha/insight of the kind described. > KO:?? Definitely it cannot be for a person who wish because?person must have the accumulations to take the subject.??Guidance means guidance of a method given which is very clear in the texts.? Ken O #105804 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 7:40 am Subject: Discussions in Bgk and K.K., no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Kh Sujin spoke about what is the most precious: right understanding of the reality appearing now. Sarah quoted a text given by Ven. Samahita: Sarah: I like the following one because it is exactly the point we were discussing in Bangkok with regard to Right Understanding as being most precious in life - that which doesn't bring sorrow: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Of minor importance, is the loss of family and wealth... > Catastrophic among losses is the loss of Understanding. > Of minor consequence, is the increase of family and wealth. > Supreme among all the gains is the increase of comprehension... > Therefore, friends, you must train yourself to win that! > AN I 14-5 > -------- N: I told Kh Sujin and all friends about the loss of my brother. Kh Sujin pointed to the understanding of the present reality. Kh Sujin spoke about what is most precious at the first evening in Kaeng Kracang: < What is most precious. There are different realities, some sorrowful, some pleasant. Do not let them pass without developing understanding, even right now. There is dhamma right now. If there is not right understanding of this moment, how can it grow? Without intellectual understanding of realities, how can direct understanding of realities arise? Nina: we are often lost in thinking of concepts, such as the story of a person who died, his funeral. Kh Sujin: This shows that the understanding of the impermanence of realities is not strong enough. Realities are conditioned dhammas, nobody can change the characteristics of dhammas. We are always forgetting about dhammas. That is why we should listen again and again, so that there will be conditions for understanding realities, even at the moments of being sad. Our whole life we follow the stories of life, the events, all day we are thinking about them. ---------- N: When I spoke about the loss of dear persons, Kh Sujin would stress time and again the importance of understanding citta at this very moment. She said at the Thai session: Nina's brother had to die, that is most normal. If there is understanding of realities as non-self, this is a condition for the arising of sati. One characteristic of a dhamma appears at a time. At such a moment there is only the dhamma that appears, no world, no person. ------------- I quote a former saying of Kh Sujin: Nina. #105805 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 9:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dry insight Method ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >All of anapanasati is being aware of the body, feelings (vedana), citta and dhamma. The instructions are not simply to focus the attention on the breath and thats it. There are 12-14 (out of 16) steps that do not focus on the breath. KO:?? You should read Visud and the commentary on Anapasati and not try to do on your own thinking.?? You have yet answer this question, do you have the requisite and the enivornment to do it.? If not, stick to vipassana.?? The way you are doing, you are trying everything, that will not do, to me honestly, this is lobha. > >Is there really that much "conceptual" objects? What are they anyway? KO:? Anything that is not citta, cetasikas, rupas and Nibbana is conceptual. >Satipatthana does talk about 4 positions of the body, 32 bodyparts, the various cemetery contemplations, awareness in daily activities.. . KO:? 32 body parts, cemetary are all conceptual, only samantha bhavana.?? >There is no word about "conceptual" vs "ultimate". The point of Buddha's teaching is to remove all craving. That is the escape from suffering. KO:?? There is no word?in the sutta does not mean there is no such terms used in the texts.? ?When I is used or abode is used, they are all conceptual.? When feelings,?sanna, craving there are all paramatha dhamma.? Without paramatha dhamma, one cannot develop the understanding of the characteristic of dhamma. > >"The subduing of desire & passion for X, the abandoning of desire & passion for X: that is the escape (nissara.na. m) from X." >http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ sn/sn22/sn22. 057.than. html >X = 5 aggregates KO;?? If there no panna,?there is no subduing of desire and passion.? Only panna can eradicate, no other cetasikas could do it.? Only Panna can lead the way to escape. Ken O #105806 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 9:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 ashkenn2k Dear Alex >I (and many others) don't consider dukkha to be *just* the unpleasant feelings. > >For example Ajahn Brahm does teach that all consciousness, all things are ultimately dukkha. This is also what the Suttas say. It is ignorance to think otherwise. >We may think that only painful feelings are bad. But even what we take for pleasant feelings (sukha-vedana) are a certain form of dukkha, if we do not know any higher happiness (such as of Jhana, maggaphala, Nibbana). > >For some people, who do not know better, ordinary happy feelings are the limit of their current conception of happiness. Compared to Jhana, maggaphala, Nibbana - those wordly happy feelings are dukkha. > >Again, deep meditation can really expand one's horizons and show that what we take to be "pleasant", isn't pleasant in comparison with other states. > KO:??Dukkha is explained sevenfold as in Dispeller of Delusion.???All things are dukkha are refering to condition elements as a result of kamma formations.? This is known as suffering in formations.??In kamma formations, there are rise and fall of namas and rupas, as long as avijja blind us, one cannot see this rise and fall,?dukkha is concealed.? That is what it is meant by dukkha is concealed.? ?Only panna can slowly eradicate the blindness of avijja.? When you talk about happy feelings or even Jhanas, as long as it is not supramundane jhanas, the pleasant feelings are also dukkha?as in?suffering in change.? Nibbana is not dukkha as it is?not a condition element so it cannot compare with mundane jhanas.?? Deep meditation does not eradicate kilesa, only panna can.? Any jhanas you do cannot help you to attain enlightement.? If that is possible, then Brahmans would have been Arahants.? Panna is the key, Those who practise jhanas must emerge from jhanas,?to have insight to be enlighted.? Concentration as the proximate cause for panna is refering to jhanas?used as a basis for the development of insight but they are not insight themselves.??? There is no need to have jhanas to have insight.? Insight is developed by panna which understand the characteristics of dhamma. With metta Ken O #105807 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 11:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > > > Hello Jon, Nina, Sarah, KenH, KenO, Scott, all, > > > > > J: Any kind of 'practice' that is not accompanied by panna will be >wrong practice. > > > > And who is telling here to practice without understanding? Which teacher says this, which sutta? > > > > > > Hi Alex, > > Why did you ask, "Which sutta?" > > Are you accusing us of something? Please explain. > > Ken H Hello KenH, (and all), All I am saying is that I haven't praised "simple" concentration. There is far more wisdom that has to be involved in anapanasati that I talk about, and it does cover 4 satipatthanas. It actually is more of vipassana -> samatha anapanasati, where tranquility is the result of correct seeing, rather than "beating or numbing the mind until it becomes dead and doesn't move". Of course I am against forceful concentration. I talk about concentration done through wisdom. With metta, Alex #105808 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 11:27 am Subject: Re: Method in VsM truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > So you go just by tradition? > >A: Here we disagree. I believe that the Buddha did a good job at trying to be as clear as possible. Are you saying that Buddha didn't know how to teach and that His message needs to be commented and corrected by later monks? > > KO:? the commentary was done during Buddha's time and not afterwards.??? Buddhaghosa did not change the wordings except to add his own opinion but there is very rare in between.? I prefer traditions that do not change and done by ancient teachers.?? > > Cheers > Ken O VsM contains pali words not used by the Buddha. As I remember, the pali scholars agree that certain texts came much later than the Buddha. It is like you won't mistake Shakespeares & Modern English. But even if some monks lived during Buddha's time, the DN16 4 references still stand. No matter what monk or group of monks say, it is to be checked with the suttas. Even during Buddha's time some monks misunderstood His message. With metta, Alex #105809 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 2:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bgk and K.K., no 1. hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah), Thank you very much for your very useful post. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/105804 I also like the text you had quoted from the message by Bhikkhu Samaahita: Of minor importance, is the loss of family and wealth... Catastrophic among losses is the loss of Understanding. Of minor consequence, is the increase of family and wealth. Supreme among all the gains is the increase of comprehension. .. Therefore, friends, you must train yourself to win that! AN I 14-5 Han: Do you know from which sutta Bhikkhu Samaahita had quoted that? The link given by him leads me nowhere. Respectfully, Han #105810 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 3:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > When you talk about happy feelings or even Jhanas, as long as it is >not supramundane jhanas, the pleasant feelings are also dukkha?as >in?suffering in change.? I agree. >Nibbana is not dukkha as it is?not a condition element so it cannot >compare with mundane jhanas.?? Of course. >Deep meditation does not eradicate kilesa, only panna can.? Deep meditation is with panna, so of course kilesas will get eradicated. > Any jhanas you do cannot help you to attain enlightement.? If that is possible, then Brahmans would have been Arahants. > > With metta > Ken O Non-Buddhists (who do not ever believe in the Buddha) have *never* achieved Jhana for one of obstacles to it is Doubt in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. Rebirth into a/rupa loka DOES NOT REQUIRE JHANA, not Buddhist Jhana anyways. Just merit and determination to be reborn there. MN120 doesn't say that Jhana is required for rupa/arupa rebirths. "Again the bhikkhu is endowed with faith, virtues, learning, benevolence and wisdom. The bhikkhu learns, that gods born in the sphere of consciousness ... re... in the sphere of nothingness, re ... in the sphere of neither perception nor non perception have a long life span and enjoy much pleasantness. It occurs to him. O! I should be born with gods of the sphere of neither perception nor non perception with long life, much pleasantness. This is the path and method to be born there." MN120 No Jhana (A Buddha's unique re-discovery) is required. In MN127 there is a description of being reborn in a rupa loka called "gods of impure effulgence" because one does metta with hindrances of sloth&torpor with restlessness & worry. Again this is not a proper Jhanic state where even the 1st Jhana requires cessation of all hindrances. Yet one is reborn somewhere in Gods of limited radiance (a 2nd "jhana" rupa loka) " a certain bhikkhu pervades, indulges, and abides with impure effulgence. Because his bodily misconduct is not thoroughly overcome, sloth and torpor and restlessness and worry are not well turned out; he has a blinking effulgence. After the breakup of the body, after death he is born with the gods of impure effulgence. ... a certain bhikkhu pervades, indulges, and abides with pure effulgence. Because his bodily misconduct is thoroughly overcome, sloth and torpor and restlessness and worry are well turned out; he has a non-blinking effulgence. After the breakup of the body, after death, he is born with the gods of pure effulgence. Friend Kacc?na, on account of this, of these gods born in the same category, some are with impure effulgence and others with pure effulgence." - MN127 This explains why Brahmas may be un-awakened. They are worldlings devoid of Buddha's path which includes real non-diluted Jhana. At best non-Buddhist can achieve some semblance of "Jhana", but it is not a real thing requiring belief in the triple gem. With Metta, Alex #105811 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 3:29 pm Subject: Right Effort! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is this vital Right Effort? <...> The Characterization of Right Effort: Striving for replacing wrong view with right view, is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong motivation with right motivation, is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong speech with right speech, is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong action with right action, is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong livelihood with right livelihood, is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong effort with right effort, is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong awareness with right awareness, is Right Effort! Striving for replacing wrong concentration w. right concentration, is Right Effort! The Explanation of the 4 Right Efforts: The 4 right efforts are 1: Control 2: Overcoming 3: Development 4: Maintenance! What is the effort of control? When seeing an object with the eye, one neither grasps after the whole object, nor any of its details, thereby one strives well to prevent bad, detrimental states, such as longing and misery, to flood in on one! One guards and controls the sense of sight and do similarly with the other senses. What is the effort of overcoming? One does not accept any lust, hate or anger, that has arisen, but leaves it instantly, dispels it, destroys it, and makes it vanish. What is the effort of development? One develops the enlightenment-factor of awareness, of investigation, of energy, of joy, of tranquillity, of concentration, and the enlightenment-factor of equanimity based on solitude, seclusion, and ceasing, which is leading to maturity and culmination of spiritual self-surrender. What is the effort of maintenance? One dominated by desire maintains firmly in his mind a favourable object of concentration, such as a skeleton, or a corpse that is full of worms, bluish-black, full of holes, and bloated, while one dominated by anger maintains firmly in his mind a favourable object of concentration, such as infinite friendliness, universal pity, mutual joy or well balanced equanimity... Thus knowing right and wrong effort as right and wrong effort, is Right View. Awareness of presence of right and wrong effort, is Right Awareness. Right effort has the function of striving, exertion and endurance... Keep on keeping on! Never give up! Always Come again! <..> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #105812 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 4:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sukinderpal Hi Mike (and Pt), I've never understood this part of the AS argument: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, > Sukinderpal wrote: > > > Suk: One basic premise is that this moment has arisen and fallen away > > already. For e.g. when there is the perception of people and things out > > there, it is understood that seeing has arisen and fallen away followed > > by thinking (in fact many moments of these interspersed by bhavanga > > cittas). From this is the understanding that all realities arise and > > fall away by conditions and beyond control including any sati and panna > > to know this. > > Mike: This is a standard argument for ultimate uncontrollability (which is > standard Buddhist stuff). However, it doesn't appear to me to be a > particularly logical argument against gathering information (though > imperfect) from observation. > > S: It looks like that I have not quite understood what you were getting at, and I thought about Pt's initial comment regarding the need to try and understand your position. I also realized on rereading my post to him yesterday, that I misunderstood one of his comments and therefore the long response to that was unnecessary. I'll therefore simply ask you, why is it that in spite of understanding that cittas are conditioned and can't be controlled, do you believe in the idea of 'meditation'? What is it about this that convinces you as being the conventional practice to undertake? Regarding the idea of "gathering information (though imperfect) from observation", I take this to imply that you realize that formal meditation involves moments of ignorance and attachment, however it must still overall be useful. I of course see meditation as being an attempt at control and hence contradicting what one otherwise believes to be the truth. I don't therefore see this as possibly leading to those truths being directly experienced, but in fact to further encouraging the tendency to and belief in 'self' and control. When you say "gathering information", what do you mean exactly? For me a citta arises to experience an object, either with ignorance, without ignorance or with wisdom. When it is with ignorance, any information gathered must be wrong, when it is wholesome without wisdom, the object is concept, and it is only when wisdom accompanies the citta to know a reality conceptually or directly, is understanding being developed. You appear to feel justified in doing what you do because you believe that this is how it always is anyway, regardless of what one is doing. I believe that panna can't arise in one who hasn't heard the Dhamma and I also see that the accumulated ignorance, craving and wrong view is such that one would need to keep listening to and discussing the Dhamma for a long, long time. I don't however think to set up time to do this even, i.e. aiming at results, since it would clearly then be motivated by craving and / or self view. I read, listen and discuss the Dhamma most of the time, like anyone else would with regard to any subject of interest. True, craving, ignorance and perhaps also some wrong view arises all day, but these are objects to be *known* and *not to be followed*. With reference to 'meditation' then, how could I expect to overcome self view if I follow it's dictates given that I believe it to be right practice at some level? More likely I would fall prey again and again to self view which has come to mistake attachment for mindfulness, thinking for awareness and wrong concentration for right concentration. Has anything been made more clear? I am almost four weeks behind in my reading of DSG and I see that you have been discussing about this same topic with others quite a bit and perhaps I'm just repeating some of what has been said. But do ask further and I think it would help if you answered the questions I asked at the beginning of this post. Metta, Sukinder #105813 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 5:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) truth_aerator Dear Sukinder, Mike, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinderpal Singh Narula > Hi Mike (and Pt), > > I'll therefore simply ask you, why is it that in spite of >understanding that cittas are conditioned and can't be controlled, >do you believe in the idea of 'meditation'? What is it about this >that convinces you as being the conventional practice to undertake? By removing the 5 hindrances, one can see "things as they are", rather as kilesas want us to see them. Of course the initiating of the path of meditation requires at least some understanding or belief that there is something to see and understand which hindrances obscure. >Regarding the idea of "gathering information (though imperfect) from >observation", I take this to imply that you realize that formal >meditation involves moments of ignorance and attachment, however >it >must still overall be useful. Through 5 hindrances being temporary suppressed, citta sees what was blocked by them. Eventually when citta sees "things as they are" long enough with enough wisdom, it naturally and selflessly abandons the akusala behaviour and eventually there is no need any longer to supress the hindrances. They are eradicated automatically. =============================================== ""Sensual desire is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. Ill will... Sloth & drowsiness... Restlessness & anxiety... Uncertainty is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. These are the five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment. And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html Where these 5 hindrances are abandoned? In the first Jhana. "a monk ? quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities ? enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This monk is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html From 4th Jhana insight knowldges can be attained: "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He discerns: 'This body of mine is endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother and father, nourished with rice and porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, and dispersion. And this consciousness of mine is supported here and bound up here.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html With metta, Alex #105814 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 6:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 kenhowardau Hi Alex, I see you have ignored my question, but that's OK. --------------------- A: > All I am saying is that I haven't praised "simple" concentration. There is far more wisdom that has to be involved in anapanasati that I talk about, and it does cover 4 satipatthanas. --------------------- The wisdom that is developed with mindfulness of breathing is not satpatthana wisdom, it is samatha wisdom. Breath is the most subtle of all samatha objects, and so to take concentration on it to the point of jhana absorption would require the greatest samatha wisdom. Only Buddhas and chief disciples are capable of it. All normal jhana meditators would use a kasina (etc). ---------------- A: > It actually is more of vipassana - samatha anapanasati, where tranquility is the result of correct seeing, ----------------- Where did you get idea? I'm sure it's not in the Tipitaka. Samatha is developed through knowing when there is, or isn't, detachment. Vipassana is developed through knowing the characteristics of a presently arisen paramattha dhamma. ---------------------- A: > rather than "beating or numbing the mind until it becomes dead and doesn't move". ---------------------- I'm glad to hear that! :-) But actually, that is purely a conventional description of [wrong] practice. In reality, there is no practice that can either deaden or enliven the mind. Just know the presently arisen nama or rupa for what it is, that's all. Ken H #105815 From: "Mike" Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 8:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) mikenz66 Hi Sukinder, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sukinderpal Singh Narula wrote: > Regarding the idea of "gathering information (though imperfect) from > observation", I take this to imply that you realize that formal meditation > involves moments of ignorance and attachment, however it must still overall > be useful. I of course see meditation as being an attempt at control and > hence contradicting what one otherwise believes to be the truth. I don't > therefore see this as possibly leading to those truths being > directly experienced, but in fact to further encouraging the tendency to and > belief in 'self' and control. Mike: Sorry, I see no contradiction. Just because you can't control something doesn't mean it is impossible to observe it or create conditions where it is easier to observe. Mike: To give a rather imperfect simile, when I excite a material with a laser I can't control the timing of the billions of photons of light that are emitted in a few microseconds, but I can observe that they emit photons of certain energies. Mike: I think we agree that the point is to realise(not just intellectualize) that there are just uncontrollable anatta dhammas. As far as I can understand, you have a particular approach to realising that. Metta Mike #105816 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 9:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bgk and K.K., no 1. nilovg Dear Han, Op 8-mrt-2010, om 23:51 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Han: Do you know from which sutta Bhikkhu Samaahita had quoted that? > The link given by him leads me nowhere. ------- N: Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Ones, Ch VIII, and it is the second part, para 4. A I, 14. It begins with Friendship with the lovely. Nina. #105817 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 8, 2010 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bgk and K.K., no 1. hantun1 Dear Nina, N: Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Ones, Ch VIII, and it is the second part, para 4. A I, 14. It begins with Friendship with the lovely. Han: I got it! Thank you very much. I find six suttas with regard to pa~n~naa and ~naati (relatives), bhoga (wealth) and yasa (fame, glory, retinue). AN 1.76. Appamattikaa esaa bhikkhave parihaani, yadida.m ~naatiparihaani. Eta.m patiki.t.tha.m bhikkhave parihaaniina.m yadida.m pa~n~naa parihaaniiti. AN 1.77. Appamattikaa esaa bhikkhave vuddhi, yadida.m ~naativuddhi. Etadagga.m bhikkhave vuddhiina.m yadida.m pa~n~naavuddhi. Tasmaatiha bhikkhave eva.m sikkhitabba.m: pa~n~naavuddhiyaa vaddhissaamaati. Eva.m hi vo bhikkhave sikkhitabbanti. AN 1.78. Appamattikaa esaa bhikkhave parihaani, yadida.m bhogaparihaani. Eta.m patiki.t.tha.m bhikkhave parihaaniina.m yadida.m pa~n~naaparihaaniiti. AN 1.79. Appamattikaa es? bhikkhave vuddhi, yadida.m bhogavuddhi. Etadagga.m bhikkhave vuddhiina.m yadida.m pa~n~naavuddhi. Tasmaatiha bhikkhave eva? sikkhitabba?. Pa~n~naavuddhiyaa vaddhissaamaati. Eva.m hi vo bhikkhave sikkhitabbanti. AN 1.80. Appamattikaa esaa bhikkhave parihaani, yadida.m yasoparihaani. Eta.m patiki.t.tha.m bhikkhave parihaaniina.m yadida.m pa~n~naaparihaaniiti. AN 1.81. Appamattikaa es? bhikkhave vuddhi, yadida.m yasovuddhi. Etadagga.m bhikkhave vuddhiina.m yadida.m pa~n~naavuddhi. Tasmaatiha bhikkhave eva.m sikkhitabba.m. Pa~n~naavuddhiyaa vaddhissaamaati. Eva.m hi vo bhikkhave sikkhitabbanti. Respectfully, Han #105818 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 1:17 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bgk and K.K., no 1. nilovg Dear Han, Thank you for giving the Pali. I cannot consider enough these suttas, realising what is really important in life. But it is hard to practise, especially when it concerns relatives, dear people. What do you think? Nina. Op 9-mrt-2010, om 7:27 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I find six suttas with regard to pa~n~naa and ~naati (relatives), > bhoga (wealth) and yasa (fame, glory, retinue). > > AN 1.76. Appamattikaa esaa bhikkhave parihaani, yadida.m > ~naatiparihaani. Eta.m patiki.t.tha.m bhikkhave parihaaniina.m > yadida.m pa~n~naa parihaaniiti. #105819 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 2:16 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bgk and K.K., no 1. hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: Thank you for giving the Pali. I cannot consider enough these suttas, realising what is really important in life. But it is hard to practise, especially when it concerns relatives, dear people. What do you think? Han: It is also very hard for me to practise when the loved ones are involved. I often consider their welfare more than my own welfare. When I see them suffering, I often wish I suffer in their place instead of them. Gradually, I tell myself that there is nothing I can do. They have their own kamma and they will have to pay their kamma debt if there is any. Talking about payback time for the kamma debt, there was a story about a Burmese queen who was accused of treason and was sentenced by the king to be killed by drowning in Irrawaddy River. On the way to her death she stopped at the monastery of the Chief Abbot of the Palace and told him that she was about to die. The Abbot just said that if there were the kamma debt, she would have to pay. When I first read that story, I thought the Chief Abbot was very cold hearted. Later, I realized that he was right. Respectfully, Han #105820 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 4:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) scottduncan2 Dear Mike (and Sukin), Regarding: Mike: "Sorry, I see no contradiction. Just because you can't control something doesn't mean it is impossible to observe it or create conditions where it is easier to observe..." Scott: Since all dhammas are anatta, and since the characteristic of anatta is insusceptibility to control, it makes no sense, in my opinion, to consider an ability to 'create conditions.' Such a phrase is merely synonymous with 'control.' Not only does anatta mean that there is no one to observe and no one to create, the basis for this particular characteristic relies on the impermanence of any given dhamma - it is simply there and gone too quickly to allow for any element of control. If 'control' exists, it would surely only be a function of the pattern of impersonal conditions - also dhammas - that are or have been in place. Sincerely, Scott. #105821 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >Deep meditation is with panna, so of course kilesas will get eradicated. > KO:?only emerging of jhanas could insight be attained.? There is no attainment during jhanas. >Non-Buddhists (who do not ever believe in the Buddha) have *never* achieved Jhana for one of obstacles to it is Doubt in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. > >Rebirth into a/rupa loka DOES NOT REQUIRE JHANA, not Buddhist Jhana anyways. Just merit and determination to be reborn there. MN120 doesn't say that Jhana is required for rupa/arupa rebirths. ? >This explains why Brahmas may be un-awakened. They are worldlings devoid of Buddha's path which includes real non-diluted Jhana. At best non-Buddhist can achieve some semblance of "Jhana", but it is not a real thing requiring belief in the triple gem. KO:??? I am rather surprise that you said that because this is not in concord with the other suttas and texts.?? In the begining of the sutta it is said: MN 120 <<3.??? Here, bikkhus,?a bhikkhu possesses faith, virture, learning, generosity and wisdom.? He thinks: "Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might reappear in the company of well-to-do nobles!"? He fixes his mind on that, resolves upon it, develops it.? These aspirations and this abiding of his, thus developed and cultivated, lead to his reapperance there.? This, bhikkhus, is the path, the way that leads to reappearance there.>> a.??? Now this is the formulae use till the highest jhanas.? The wordings, resolves and develops?indicates?the development of jhanas for those aspiration is jhanas b.??? The begining posses, faith, virture, learning, generosity and wisdom.?- means there must be panna in any development The last paragrah <<37? Here, bikkhus,?a bhikkhu possesses faith, virture, learning, generosity and wisdom.He thinks "Oh, that by realising for myself with direct knowledge.? I might here and now enter upon and deliverence of mind and deliverance by wisdom that taintless with the destruction of the taint.? And by realsiing for himself with direct knowledge, he here and now enters upon and abides in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints.? Bhikkhu, this bhikkhu does not reappear anywhere at all. c.??? the goal of Buddhism is not about rebirth but deliverance from rebirth.? d.??? there is no need to attain jhanas to attain wisdom, because by realising for oneself, one develops panna and not jhanas. Before I end, I like to say, dont extract sutta just to support your views.? Read carefully and wisely.??We should be impartial and make sure they are consistent throughout.??Be truthful as I always tell you.? All Buddha build their paramis on truth, and without truth there is no 4NT With metta Ken O #105822 From: Ken O Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Method in VsM ashkenn2k Dear Alex >VsM contains pali words not used by the Buddha. As I remember, the pali scholars agree that certain texts came much later than the Buddha. It is like you won't mistake Shakespeares & Modern English. > >But even if some monks lived during Buddha's time, the DN16 4 references still stand. No matter what monk or group of monks say, it is to be checked with the suttas. Even during Buddha's time some monks misunderstood His message. KO:? You must understand when Buddha taught Buddhism, the language used is not a written language so when you start to write a language not use in written form, there bounds be differences and variations.? Also I dont believe too much in scholars because most of them study the?language and not the meaning of the dhamma.?? Furthermore, the Pali commentaries was lost and it was translated again from Singhalees.? By the time Buddhaghosa translate it, the PALI?language?has evolved.??? Also at that time the commentaries are part of the suttas, it is only at the later stage, the commentaries were taken out and form another group by its own.? Again Abidhamma is also part of the suttas during the recitation of the 1st council.? It is only at the 3rd council, they put a separate basket.? If Abhidhamma is not highly revered by the monks then, it would not be possible to be a 3rd?baskets.? If the commentaries do not conform to the suttas, it would not have recited in the councils.? Why would Arahants who?are free from all taints decided there should be 3rd baskets if it is not in conforming or in concordance with the sutta. People only think because it is recited in the 3rd council which scholars said that, but scholars forget that those who recites are Arahants and?these?are the ones?who decided to classified into 3rd baskets.? If it is not good enough and accordance to the truth, why bother? With metta Ken O #105823 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sukinderpal Hi Alex, Thanks for coming in to try and explain. Although this isn?t the kind of answer I was expecting, I?ll respond as best as I can to the point you have made. ============= > I'll therefore simply ask you, why is it that in spite of >understanding that cittas are conditioned and can't be controlled, >do you believe in the idea of 'meditation'? What is it about this >that convinces you as being the conventional practice to undertake? Alex: By removing the 5 hindrances, one can see "things as they are", rather as kilesas want us to see them. Of course the initiating of the path of meditation requires at least some understanding or belief that there is something to see and understand which hindrances obscure. Sukin: Yours seem to be a conventional idea about the hindrances and their effects, likewise what you think is the way to deal with them. You are suggesting that after one has heard about the hindrances, the logical conclusion is to want to do something about them in order that they be suppressed. But is it not more pertinent to first understand exactly what these hindrances are and why they are considered such? Like all dhammas these have characteristics, function and proximate cause, do we not therefore need to ?study? them? Why jump to the idea of doing something about them when one hasn?t even begun to know what they are in daily life? And if one really knows them, with what understanding is this? The hindrances are what they are when they arise, not when they don?t. If one is developing samatha, these five are seen to be what they are, if I remember right, only when trying to achieve high levels of concentration, otherwise they are not relevant. In terms of the development of wisdom on the other hand, they are amongst the objects to be known like all other dhammas and as explained in the Satipatthana Sutta. Here there is no suggestion that any dhamma needs to be suppressed, but in fact how the Path is developed, namely by coming to understand characteristic of dhammas as and when they appear. Indeed when panna arises to know the characteristic of any of these realities, at that moment not only is it kusala of the best kind, but it would impress as being the Path by which the hindrances are best dealt with. There is however a sixth hindrance which is considered the one that is relevant to the development of wisdom. This is ignorance. Besides being what it is when it arises (and it does so with all akusala cittas), this is about not knowing anything about the Four Noble Truths, which includes the Path. And when this is the case, wrong view invariably comes in and this is *the dhamma* which I consider worst of all. Why? Because it takes for real what is not and it mistakes what is not the Path for the Path. Sensual desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and doubt are hindrance to Jhana, because jhana aims at calm and not the understanding of the way things are. But the N8FPath being about understanding any and all realities, these realties are to understood better and better and hence the idea of suppressing them should in fact never come in. =============== >Regarding the idea of "gathering information (though imperfect) from >observation", I take this to imply that you realize that formal >meditation involves moments of ignorance and attachment, however >it >must still overall be useful. Alex: Through 5 hindrances being temporary suppressed, citta sees what was blocked by them. Sukin: Hmm, are you pointing to some underlying reality that is supposed to be there when the hindrances arise and continues to exist after they have fallen away? Are you taking into account the fact of one citta arising at one time, conditioned variously, including by the object? Besides you seem also to be talking about the hindrance as though they are there, always?? But what about say, a moment of seeing experiencing visible object, this is vipaka. What stops sati and panna from arising immediately following this process to know it? =============== Alex: Eventually when citta sees "things as they are" long enough with enough wisdom, it naturally and selflessly abandons the akusala behaviour and eventually there is no need any longer to supress the hindrances. They are eradicated automatically. Sukin: You mean the hindrances are suppressed but they still can be known and enough to finally be eradicated? Or are you saying that in fact they aren?t required to be known, but panna develops by virtue of insighting other realities, supposedly rupas and kusala realities only and never akusala and this is enough for all akusala to be eradicated at some point? Why should anyone believe this Alex? To me it sounds like thought proliferation conditioned by a wrong understanding of the Path! Such ideas as this and all those which believe in the Sila->Samadhi->Panna formula, seem to totally ignore the fact that it is *wisdom* which is the forerunner and needs to develop and accumulate in strength such that the insight stages are experienced, and enlightenment reached. In other words, the development of the Path has nothing to do with the need to first have sila or samadhi, but of panna to arise from a beginning level which then needs to be developed on and on by virtue of repeated arisings. If one is to have faith in a formula it would be the Suttamaya panna -> Cintamaya panna ->Bhavanamaya panna, or Pariyatti -> Patipatti -> Pativedha and also very important to consider, Saccannana -> Kiccannana -> Katannana. All these remind us about the importance of Right View and need for this to develop by conditions at its own pace. Hence to then not think in terms of following some particular practice, those that if considered carefully, would be a distortion of the Path and when looked even more closely, reflect a wrong understanding about the first and second Noble Truths as well. The idea that one needs to calm the mind so as to then be able to see clearly is in this regard, a misconception. Samatha / Jhana is one path and vipassana is another path. To somehow come to a conclusion that the one is needed for the other to happen, this is reflection of not knowing about the nature of realities and particularly the danger of ignorance. It is being confused also about what the correct Path as taught by the Buddha is. In fact I would go on to suggest that those who follow the line of thinking develop neither of these two paths. =============================================== Alex: ""Sensual desire is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. Ill will... Sloth & drowsiness... Restlessness & anxiety... Uncertainty is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. These are the five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment. And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible." Sukin: This and other Sutta quotes you cited have been discussed before. You may want to look up past posts in order that they are recalled. One conclusion I make is that your interpretation of any one of these Suttas is what it is because you ignore certain very important aspects of what the Buddha taught, particularly that of Anatta and conditionality. I do not wish to discuss suttas for this and other reasons, but I am ready to proceed with any discussion based on accepted Dhamma principles and using reason if you wish??. Metta, Sukinder #105824 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 7:09 am Subject: Non-Buddhists have never attained full Jhana truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > > >Deep meditation is with panna, so of course kilesas will get >eradicated. > > > KO:?only emerging of jhanas could insight be attained.? There is no >attainment during jhanas. What you've said doesn't change much of what I've said before. > > >Non-Buddhists (who do not ever believe in the Buddha) have *never* achieved Jhana for one of obstacles to it is Doubt in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. > > > >Rebirth into a/rupa loka DOES NOT REQUIRE JHANA, not Buddhist Jhana anyways. Just merit and determination to be reborn there. MN120 doesn't say that Jhana is required for rupa/arupa rebirths. > ? > >This explains why Brahmas may be un-awakened. They are worldlings devoid of Buddha's path which includes real non-diluted Jhana. At best non-Buddhist can achieve some semblance of "Jhana", but it is not a real thing requiring belief in the triple gem. > > > KO:??? I am rather surprise that you said that because this is not >in concord with the other suttas and texts. Actually it is. MN120 doesn't require Jhana for rebirth even in Aruppa planes. This is accordance with the teaching on full Jhana being available only to Buddhists and solely the ability of Buddhists. ?? In the begining of the sutta it is said: > > MN 120 > <<3.??? Here, bikkhus,?a bhikkhu possesses faith, virture, learning, generosity and wisdom.? He thinks: "Oh, that on the dissolution of the body, after death, I might reappear in the company of well-to-do nobles!"? He fixes his mind on that, resolves upon it, develops it.? These aspirations and this abiding of his, thus developed and cultivated, lead to his reapperance there.? This, bhikkhus, is the path, the way that leads to reappearance there.>> > > a.??? Now this is the formulae use till the highest jhanas. Note: The requirements are clearly stated as "a bhikkhu possesses faith, virture, learning, generosity and wisdom". It doesn't say that Bhikkhu posseses Sati or Samma-Samadhi. If that Bhikkhu is an outsider, then he can never achieved proper Buddhist Jhana which requires confidence in Buddha's teaching. Outsiders and holders of other views do not believe the Buddha, so they cannot overcome the hindrance of doubt. > The last paragrah > <<37? Here, bikkhus,?a bhikkhu possesses faith, virture, learning, generosity and wisdom.He thinks "Oh, that by realising for myself with direct knowledge.? I might here and now enter upon and deliverence of mind and deliverance by wisdom that taintless with the destruction of the taint.? And by realsiing for himself with direct knowledge, he here and now enters upon and abides in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints.? Bhikkhu, this bhikkhu does not reappear anywhere at all. > Here it talks about achievement of maggaphla, and here it mentions "deliverence of mind " which includes full Jhana. > c.the goal of Buddhism is not about rebirth but deliverance from >rebirth.? I agree 100%. I never implied otherwise. > d.there is no need to attain jhanas to attain wisdom, because by >realising for oneself, one develops panna and not jhanas. Remember the famous Dhp quote of "no wisdom without Jhana" and nibbana requiring Jhana and wisdom? Non-Buddhist have not achieved full Jhana, so not only they lack panna, they lack Jhana as well. With metta, Alex #105825 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 8:59 am Subject: Control & doing. Aren't we always try to control? truth_aerator > Mike: "Sorry, I see no contradiction. Just because you can't >control something doesn't mean it is impossible to observe it or >create conditions where it is easier to observe..." > > Scott: Since all dhammas are anatta, and since the characteristic >of anatta is insusceptibility to control, it makes no sense, in my >opinion, to consider an ability to 'create conditions.' Such a >phrase is merely synonymous with 'control.' Not only does anatta >mean that there is no one to observe and no one to create, the basis >for this particular characteristic relies on the impermanence of any >given dhamma - it is simply there and gone too quickly to allow for >any element of control. If 'control' exists, it would surely only >be a function of the pattern of impersonal conditions - also dhammas >- that are or have been in place. Dear Scott, Sukinder, all, When we drive (or use any other type of transportation), we control the location of the body or at least set the required conditions to alter the location of the body. When in cold weather we put extra layers of cloth, that is one of the causes for the body to feel warmer. Eating is the condition for temporary satiation of hunger. Drinking water is the required condition for quenching of thirst. So we are always setting causes for certain results. Doesn't it makes sense to set causes for understanding to arise? Similar is with meditation where there is practice of seeing things as anicca, dukkha, anatta. As the saying goes "practice makes it perfect". The success at permanently seeing and understanding things as anicca, dukkha, anatta, depends on being able to see that temporary at first in meditation. With metta, Alex #105826 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 9:52 am Subject: On hindrances. truth_aerator Hello Sukinder, all, >Sukin: Yours seem to be a conventional idea about the hindrances and >their effects It is not my idea. It is what the Buddha has said. In fact Contrary to some later Tibetan Tantra, hindrances cannot be used to help insight. IMHO at the moment when the hindrance is present, there is no panna there. AN 5.51 and many other suttas consistently make it clear that hindrances hinder panna. Contrary to what kilesas try to say, you can't use what hinders panna to help panna. "if one were to say of anything as a heap of the unwholesome, it is about the five hindrances that one could rightly say this. For this is a complete heap of the unwholesome, that is, the five hindrances. What five? The hindrance of sensual desire, the hindrance of ill will, the hindrance of sloth and torpor, the hindrance of restlessness and worry, the hindrance of doubt . " - SN 47.5(5) So how can one "investigate" the hindrances? Only with presently arisen wisdom and as analysis of *past* hindrances. As I've said, at the moment when hindrance arises, then wisdom cannot be simulteneously present. But wisdom can take past memory of hindrances and analyze/investigate it. If there is any point in investigating the hindrances, it is only for the sake of their abandonment, first temporary and then permanently. That is it. "Bhikkhus, these five hindrances are makers of blindness, causing lack of vision, causing lack of knowledge, detrimental to wisdom, tending to vexation, leading away from Nibbana" - SN46.40(10) "One whose mind is overwhelmed by unrestrained covetousness will do what he should not do and neglect what he ought to do. And through that, his good name and his happiness will come to ruin. One whose mind is overwhelmed by ill-will... by sloth and torpor... by restlessness and remorse... by sceptical doubt will do what he should not do and neglect what he ought to do. And through that, his good name and his happiness will come to ruin. But if a noble disciple has seen these five as defilements of the mind, he will give them up. And doing so, he is regarded as one of great wisdom, of abundant wisdom, clear-visioned, well endowed with wisdom. This is called "endowment with wisdom." - AN 4:61 "Similarly, there are five impurities of the mind impaired by which the mind is not pliant and wieldy, lacks radiant lucidity and firmness, and cannot concentrate well upon the eradication of the taints (asava). What are these five impurities? They are: sensual desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and remorse, and sceptical doubt. But if the mind is freed of these five impurities, it will be pliant and wieldy, will have radiant lucidity and firmness, and will concentrate well upon the eradication of the taints. Whatever state realizable by the higher mental faculties one may direct the mind to, one will in each case acquire the capacity of realization, if the (other) conditions are fulfilled. - AN 5:23 So to be even more precise and sticking to the suttas, hindrances are obstacles to be removed. They obstruct wisdom, and thus cannot themselves be recommended, nor are they themselves useful in any way for wisdom. "Bhikkhus, these five hindrances are makers of blindness, causing lack of vision, causing lack of knowledge, detrimental to wisdom, tending to vexation, leading away from Nibbana" - SN 46.40 (10) As for control. We already try to control or set the causes to alter the physical reality. When we drive (or use any other type of transportation), we control the location of the body or at least set the required conditions to alter the location of the body. When in cold weather we put extra layers of cloth, that is one of the causes for the body to feel warmer. Eating is the condition for temporary satiation of hunger. Drinking water is the required condition for quenching of thirst. So we are always setting causes for certain results. Doesn't it makes sense to set causes for abandoning the hindrances and allowing understanding to arise? Similar is with meditation where there is practice of abandoning the 5 hindrances, and seeing things as anicca, dukkha, anatta . As the saying goes "practice makes it perfect". The success at permanently seeing and understanding things as anicca, dukkha, anatta, depends on being able to see that temporary first with suppressed hindrances in deep meditation. Of course in the beginning the development is weak due to lack of causes. But practice at removing obstacles to insight, will eventually make insight perfect and permanent. With metta, Alex http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html #105828 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 10:14 am Subject: Re: Control & doing. Aren't we always try to control? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: A: "When we drive (or use any other type of transportation), we control the location of the body or at least set the required conditions to alter the location of the body...Similar is with meditation.." Scott: No matter how often you repeat this you are wrong. ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #105829 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 11:29 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Discussions in Bgk and K.K., no 1. nilovg Dear Han, I like the story about the queen. We have seen the Irrawaddy River. It helps to consider kamma. It is due to kamma whether one has a short life or a long life. We cannot alter this. Nina. Op 9-mrt-2010, om 11:16 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Talking about payback time for the kamma debt, there was a story > about a Burmese queen who was accused of treason and was sentenced > by the king to be killed by drowning in Irrawaddy River. On the way > to her death she stopped at the monastery of the Chief Abbot of the > Palace and told him that she was about to die. The Abbot just said > that if there were the kamma debt, she would have to pay. When I > first read that story, I thought the Chief Abbot was very cold > hearted. Later, I realized that he was right. #105830 From: "Mike" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 1:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) mikenz66 Hi Scott, Sukin, etc, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottduncan2" wrote: > > Dear Mike (and Sukin), > > Regarding: > > Mike: "Sorry, I see no contradiction. Just because you can't control something doesn't mean it is impossible to observe it or create conditions where it is easier to observe..." > > Scott: Since all dhammas are anatta, and since the characteristic of anatta is insusceptibility to control, it makes no sense, in my opinion, to consider an ability to 'create conditions.' Such a phrase is merely synonymous with 'control.' Not only does anatta mean that there is no one to observe and no one to create, the basis for this particular characteristic relies on the impermanence of any given dhamma - it is simply there and gone too quickly to allow for any element of control. If 'control' exists, it would surely only be a function of the pattern of impersonal conditions - also dhammas - that are or have been in place. Mike: Thank you for your input. I have nothing to add. We will all continue to make particular choices in view and approach to Dhamma. Metta Mike #105831 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 2:54 pm Subject: Hello everyone farrellkevin80 Hi everyone. This is Kevin (the ex-monk, Dhammavindo) who was in Bangkok last year. Many of you know that I had adopted some mahayana views. I wanted everyone to know that, due in large part from the Dhamma that I heard from Ajahn Sujin, Nina, Robert, Ivan, Sukin, Jon, Sarah, and everybody else, I have been able to abandon those wrong Mahayana views. Presently I am living in America and doing very well. I am intrested to participate in this list more often. My deep appreciation and gratitude go out to everyone that I met in Thailand from the Foundation. You all have played such an important role in my Buddhist learning and development (what small development I have been able to accomplish that is). Kevin #105832 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 4:02 pm Subject: Right Awareness! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is this Fundamental Right Awareness? <...> The 4-fold Definition of Right Awareness: 1: Awareness of the Body merely as a transient and compounded Form.. 2: Awareness of Feelings just as conditioned emotional Responses.. 3: Awareness of Mind only as habituated and temporary Moods.. 4: Awareness of Phenomena only as constructed Mental States.. Right Awareness is of these 4, while being alert, & clearly comprehending, will put away longing towards and aversion against anything in this world! The Characterization of Right Awareness: Awareness of wrong view or right view present now, is Right Awareness! Awareness of wrong motivation or right motivation, is Right Awareness! Awareness of wrong speech or right speech now, is Right Awareness! Awareness of wrong action or right action, is Right Awareness! Awareness of wrong livelihood or right livelihood, is Right Awareness! Awareness of wrong effort or right effort, is Right Awareness! Awareness of wrong awareness or right awareness, is Right Awareness! Awareness of wrong or right concentration now, is Right Awareness! The Explanation of Acute Awareness and Clear Comprehension: When inhaling & exhaling long, one notices and is fully aware of just that.. When inhaling & exhaling short, one notices & is fully aware of just that.. One trains: I will breathe in-&-out clearly comprehending the entire body. One trains: I will breathe in-&-out calming the breath & all bodily activity. When walking, one notices and clearly comprehends, that one is walking. When standing, one notices and clearly comprehends, that one is standing. When sitting, one notices & clearly comprehends, that one is sitting down. When lying down, one notices & clearly comprehends, that one is lying. Going forward one notices & clearly comprehends, this going forward. When returning one notices and clearly comprehends, this returning. When looking in front or back, one is notices, & is clearly aware of that. When bending or stretching, when lifting or carrying, when eating or drinking, chewing or tasting, one is aware of and comprehends just that. When passing excrement or urine one clearly comprehends exactly that. While falling asleep and waking up, when speaking or keeping silence, one notices, knows and understands exactly that & clearly comprehends, that this is, what one is doing just right here and exactly now... Continuous awareness of purpose, suitability, domain and nature of one's current behaviour, whether mental, verbal or bodily is Right Awareness and clear comprehension... The Function of Right Awareness and its associates: Knowing right/wrong awareness as right/wrong awareness, is right view. Exchanging wrong awareness with right awareness is right effort. Right awareness has the function of observing, noticing, remembering & knowing the reality that neither any body, nor any form, nor any feeling, nor any mentality, nor any phenomena, nor any mental state is happiness, truly attractive, lasting, satisfying or even personal, something keepable... All phenomena are momentary: They pass away right after the moment of their arising and occurrence! Nothing is permanent, everything is in a state of flux: Arising and ceasing, emerging and vanishing, coming and going, again and again and again and again and ever again...!!! Anicca = Change... The Blessed Buddha once said: Friends, this is the only direct way to the mental purification of beings, to the overcoming & elimination of sorrow, frustration, pain and misery, to gaining the right method, to the realization of Nibbana, that is: This establishing of the 4 Foundations of Awareness... The 4 frames of reference... Awareness is therefore a Mountain of Advantage! Take Home: The 4 Foundations of Right Awareness are: 1: Being aware of the BODY as a mere transient form. 2: Being aware of the FEELING as a mere reactive response. 3: Being aware of the MIND as a mere passing set of moods. 4: Being aware of the PHENOMENON as a mere mental state. Further study of Buddhist Right Awareness (Samma-Sati): Root texts by the Buddha: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html#satipatthana <...> Complete reference on Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=209540 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #105833 From: "farrellkevin80" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 5:06 pm Subject: Re: Control & doing. Aren't we always try to control? farrellkevin80 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" "Alex: When we drive (or use any other type of transportation), we control the location of the body or at least set the required conditions to alter the location of the body. When in cold weather we put extra layers of cloth, that is one of the causes for the body to feel warmer. Eating is the condition for temporary satiation of hunger. > Drinking water is the required condition for quenching of thirst. > So we are always setting causes for certain results. Doesn't it makes sense to set causes for understanding to arise? > > Similar is with meditation where there is practice of seeing things as anicca, dukkha, anatta. As the saying goes "practice makes it perfect". The success at permanently seeing and understanding things as anicca, dukkha, anatta, depends on being able to see that temporary at first in meditation. > With metta, > Alex" Kevin: Hi Alex. The problem is that we have moha, or delusion. Everytime that a person "does something" to gain some end, such as drink water in order to quench his thirst, he thinks that it is an "I" which decides and accomplishes the feet. That wrong understanding is only a condition for self-view to arise again in the future, not for amoha, or panna, to arise. The truth is that thirst arises based on conditions. We cannot decide if it will arise or not, nor control when it will arise. Likewise, the decision to drink liquid also arises based on conditions. For example, there is understanding that satiating the thirst will bring a pleasant feeling and that not drinking liquid will bring an unpleasant feeling. We think we are responsible for this "self" and we are averse to unpleasant feeling, this conditions movement of the body, and we lift a vessel containing a liquid to our mouth, and we drink it, or we go to a place where we can get liquid and then drink it. No person really decided to drink-- the "decision" was conditioned. It is very subtle. All the things in the process of deciding were conditioned within the citta. Viewing it as a self that makes these things occur only conditions self-view to become stronger and arise again later on down the line. Adversely, understanding correctly on the conceptual level, can finally condition panna on the penetrative level, which can eventually lead to the eradication of the self-view. It is counterintuitive for sure, but we cannot "set causes for understanding to arise". Panna on the penetrative level arises through the right conditions. If our panna becomes sharper on the conceptual level, it may condition panna on the penetrative level. No doer sharpens this panna, however. With time, once the right seeds have been sown, it may become keener and keener. It is a self-less process. The important thing is that thinking that a self actually decides things or brings them about only keeps us within our thicket of views about self. I hope this helps. kevin #105834 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Control & doing. Aren't we always try to control? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "farrellkevin80" wrote: >> Viewing it as a self that makes these things occur only conditions self-view to become stronger and arise again later on down the line. Adversely, understanding correctly on the conceptual level, can finally condition panna on the penetrative level, which can eventually lead to the eradication of the self-view. It is counterintuitive for sure, but we cannot "set causes for understanding to arise". Panna on the penetrative level arises through the right conditions. If our panna becomes sharper on the conceptual level, it may condition panna on the penetrative level. No doer sharpens this panna, however. With time, once the right seeds have been sown, it may become keener and keener. It is a self-less process. The important thing is that thinking that a self actually decides things or brings them about only keeps us within our thicket of views about self. > > I hope this helps. > > kevin > Hello Kevin, Sukinder, KenO, Nina, all. Thank you for your reply. First of all, I do not consider any action, including meditation as being Self or belonging to Self. Neither do I believe in control. However, the argument that "meditation reinforces self view, thus brings us further from the goal. SO just live life normally." is very inconsistent. If any activity can condition wrong view, then even daily life could condition self view as much as meditation. Yet no one says "you have to become a monk and do as little as possible". You know, most of 227 rules are of the "abstain from..." kind. If as you say that: "but we cannot "set causes for understanding to arise" then why be Buddhists then? Why not become devout muslims for example? Why read Dhamma Books such as Abhidhamma? Why travel to Bangkok, listen to KS, study & consider dhamma, remind oneself, abstain from killing, stealing, etc, if nothing can set the causes for panna to arise in the future? What you say sounds like extreme nihilism where a muslim fundamentalist, for example, and a Dhamma follower are on the same level so to speak. How is this lack of influence & setting causes, cardinally different from Makkhali Gosala's and Ajivika's fatalistic view that "nothing could be done. It is all due to conditions.". Didn't the Buddha say something like "abandon unwholesome qualities. If it were impossible to do so, I wouldn't ask you of it." (I don't remember exactly which sutta, but I can find it if you want.) With metta, Alex #105835 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 7:02 pm Subject: Re: Hello everyone kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > Hi everyone. This is Kevin (the ex-monk, Dhammavindo) who was in > Bangkok last year. Many of you know that I had adopted some ----------- Nice to have you back, Kevin. I remember you have a good theory on why some people choose to believe that dhammas are ultimately no more real than concepts. Your input is needed here. :-) Ken H #105836 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 7:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello everyone farrellkevin80 Truth-Aerator: "Hello Kevin, Sukinder, KenO, Nina, all. Thank you for your reply. First of all, I do not consider any action, including meditation as being Self or belonging to Self. Neither do I believe in control. However, the argument that "meditation reinforces self view, thus brings us further from the goal. SO just live life normally." is very inconsistent. If any activity can condition wrong view, then even daily life could condition self view as much as meditation. Yet no one says "you have to become a monk and do as little as possible". You know, most of 227 rules are of the "abstain from..." kind. If as you say that: "but we cannot "set causes for understanding to arise" then why be Buddhists then? Why not become devout muslims for example? Why read Dhamma Books such as Abhidhamma? Why travel to Bangkok, listen to KS, study & consider dhamma, remind oneself, abstain from killing, stealing, etc, if nothing can set the causes for panna to arise in the future? What you say sounds like extreme nihilism where a muslim fundamentalist, for example, and a Dhamma follower are on the same level so to speak. How is this lack of influence & setting causes, cardinally different from Makkhali Gosala's and Ajivika's fatalistic view that "nothing could be done. It is all due to conditions." . Didn't the Buddha say something like "abandon unwholesome qualities. If it were impossible to do so, I wouldn't ask you of it." (I don't remember exactly which sutta, but I can find it if you want.) With metta, Alex" Hi again Alex! ;p Think of it this way, Alex: understanding that activities in which things get done are not self because they are simply instances of citta, cetasika, and rupa arising and falling away which all condition one another, will condition amoha, because it is amoha. When that is understood, there are conditions for amoha to accumulate, eventually to the degree where it is not just conceptual, but where it penetrates the Four Noble Truths. Whenever we think we can cause something even in a slight way, there are conditions only for self-view to grow again and again in the citta. The difference between a non-Buddhist and a Buddhist developing Right Understanding here is that a non-Buddhist has no idea about anatta dhammas, but the Buddhist studies dhamma and understands more and more that there are just citta, cetasika, and cetasika, and understands the difference between realities and concepts. What conditions what? When seeds are put into fertile soil there are conditions for a plant or tree to grow; however, if the seeds are put into dry sand there are no conditions for the plant to grow. Studying the Dhamma and understanding not-self is like a fertile soil for panna to grow in, but thinking that one can control is like a seed in a dry patch of land. In fact, with each instance that one thinks one can exert some control the earth becomes drier, and soon no plant (the plant in this analogy is wisdom) can develop. What would be good is more panna, this can be obtained through hearing the dhamma and reflecting upon it; however, one cannot force it to develop and grow, nor can one force oneself to understand Dhamma. One cannot force oneself to learn, nor can one force panna to develop. If there is Right Understanding it can become deeper, I think. kevin #105837 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 7:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello everyone farrellkevin80 Ken: "Nice to have you back, Kevin. I remember you have a good theory on why some people choose to believe that dhammas are ultimately no more real than concepts. Your input is needed here. :-) Ken H" Dear Ken, it is nice to "be back" and to be able to communicate with and read the posts of my dhamma friends. Kevin _ _ #105838 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 7:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello everyone truth_aerator Hi Kevin, all, >Kevin Farrell wrote: > Hi again Alex! ;p > >Think of it this way, Alex: understanding that activities in which >things get done are not self because they are simply instances of >citta, cetasika, and rupa arising and falling away which all >condition one another, will condition amoha, because it is amoha. >When that is understood, there are conditions for amoha to >accumulate, eventually to the degree where it is not just >conceptual, but where it penetrates the Four Noble Truths. Whenever >we think we can cause something even in a slight way, there are >conditions only for self-view to grow again and again in the >citta. But didn't you say that nothing can be done, conditions cannot be put? What you describe above is a sort of practice where you consider all that happens to be just citta, cetasika, rupa. The influencing and setting causes for future panna to arise you have described as " When that is understood, there are conditions for amoha to accumulate, eventually to the degree where it is not just conceptual, but where it penetrates the Four Noble Truths. " Similar is with other meditations. One understands more and more that whatever arises is just citta, cetasika and rupa that is anicca, dukkha, anatta. So here you are not describing the purpose of meditation, to understand. With metta, Alex #105839 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 9:54 pm Subject: Re: Method in VsM jonoabb Hi Alex (105798) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > So what do you think the Buddhaghosa has meant when he said: > > ""Even if one is master of the Tipitaka, the verbal recitation should > still be done at the time of first giving it attention." - Vsm VIII,1 > > > "The recitation should be done verbally in this way a hundred times, > a thousand times, even a hundred thousand times." > > Alex: Above is an instruction on what to do. > =============== J: I think it's meant to be part of a general description rather than an instruction. A recitation is not samatha bhavana unless it is accompanied by panna, and the text does not explain how a recitation is to be done so that it is accompanied by panna. The text does not claim to be a self-help guide to the development of samatha, making it unnecessary to have a teacher. > =============== > "For it is through verbal recitation that the meditation subject becomes familiar, and the mind being thus prevented from running here and there, the parts become evident and seem like [the fingers of] a pair of clasped hands, like a row of fence posts." - Vsm VIII,56 > > Alex: Above states why it should be vocally recited. > =============== J: Yes, but it's clearly not a matter of mere concentration. There is the 'becoming familiar with' the meditation subject. What do you understand this to mean? > =============== > That phrase states it clearly that Even if you are a master of Tipitaka, you still should, SHOULD, do the verbal recitation. It also explains *why* it needs to be done > =============== J: You are saying in effect that the text is directly addressing the reader who aspires to jhana. I don't think so. It describes the bhikkhu who is developing samatha under a teacher. > =============== > "For it is through verbal recitation that the meditation subject becomes familiar...the parts become evident..." > =============== J: Yes, for the person who fits all the description that comes before this passage in the section on Samadhi (Part 2). Do not think that you can just pick up on references mid-way through the Part and ignore what has preceded them ;-)) > =============== > Why verbal recitation may be an indispensible? See VsM quote below -> > "57. 2. The mental recitation should be done just as it is done verbally. For the verbal recitation is a condition for the mental recitation, and the mental recitation is a condition for the penetration of the characteristic [of foulness]." - VsM VIII, 56-57 > > "For the verbal recitation is a condition for the mental recitation," > > And > > "the mental recitation is a condition for the penetration of the characteristic [of foulness]" > =============== J: We've already discussed our differing interpretations of the passage (including the reference to "some" persons). Let's try and avoid repetition for the sake of it ;-)) > =============== > Characteristic of foulness belongs to dukkha lakkhana, it is something one sees with insight. So this practice does have insight component. > =============== J: The development of insight is what the teachings are all about. So naturally, within the teachings, reference to a person developing jhana is a reference to a person who first and foremost is developing insight (i.e., who has already developed insight and is continuing to further develop it). > =============== > > The suttas need considerable interpretation to be understood. > > Here we disagree. I believe that the Buddha did a good job at trying to be as clear as possible. Are you saying that Buddha didn't know how to teach and that His message needs to be commented and corrected by later monks? > =============== J: Not *corrected* (sigh ...), but *explained in greater detail*. Those to whom the teachings were addressed were persons who, by and large, were ready for enlightenment and thus able to understand a teaching given in brief. People nowadays need much greater detail in order to understand what is being referred to in the suttas. Jon #105840 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 9:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 jonoabb Hi KenO (105803) > >J: My point was that the Dispeller is describing the guidance given by teachers to their students; it is not purporting to itself be a guide to persons wishing to develop samatha/insight of the kind described. > > > KO: Definitely it cannot be for a person who wish because person must have the accumulations to take the subject. Guidance means guidance of a method given which is very clear in the texts. > =============== J: Yes, but I'm now confused as to what you are claiming. Does the 'guidance of a method given' come from the teacher, or are you saying that the Dispeller provides that guidance so that the development is possible by reference to the Dispeller alone without the need for a teacher? Jon #105841 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 9:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 jonoabb Hi Alex (105799) > > J: Any kind of 'practice' that is not accompanied by panna will be >wrong practice. > > And who is telling here to practice without understanding? Which teacher says this, which sutta? > =============== J: When a person meditates, is there only kusala? To my understanding, there cannot be continuous kusala, let alone kusala of the level of panna. So if a conventional activity is undertaken as a form of practice (whether it be sitting and focussing on/paying attention to something, or reading with a view to prompting the arising of kusala), there will necessarily be akusala and this akusala will be wrong practice. Jon #105842 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello everyone sarahprocter... Hi Kevin, Good to see you around again! I hope your studies are going well in NY. We were just wondering about you recently... I'll look forward to more discussion with you here and to reading your messages... When the sacca-nana (understanding of the truth) is not firm enough, there's bound to be all sorts of wavering. This is why the careful listening, considering and questioning is so very important. Metta Sarah --- On Wed, 10/3/10, Kevin Farrell wrote: Hi everyone. This is Kevin (the ex-monk, Dhammavindo) who was in Bangkok last year. <...> #105843 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 sarahprocter... Dear Ken O (& Alex), --- On Tue, 9/3/10, Ken O wrote: >Panna is the key, Those who practise jhanas must emerge from jhanas,?to have insight to be enlighted.? .... S: True ... >Concentration as the proximate cause for panna is refering to jhanas?used as a basis for the development of insight but they are not insight themselves.??? ... S: I think that when concentration is given as "the proximate cause", it is referring to the right concentration which arises with the right understanding. They are both proximate condition for each other. At the moment of enlightenment, such concentration is, as you know, equivalent in strength to that of jhana. ... >There is no need to have jhanas to have insight.? Insight is developed by panna which understand the characteristics of dhamma. ... S: Well said. Of course, it's not a matter of choice as to what kind of kusala (or akusala) arises and not, we'd say, a matter of 'doing' or 'not doing', of 'sticking to vipassana' or 'not sticking to anything'. It's a matter of just understanding the presently appearing dhammas, regardless of whether they are seeing, visible object or even frustration now! It all comes back to this moment every time. Metta Sarah ====== #105844 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 9, 2010 11:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- On Mon, 8/3/10, Mike wrote: >Mike: Perhaps not, but I certainly have the impression that you disagree with all other teachers I know about on the question of how one should understand the Dhamma for oneself. ... S: The point is, as you agree, that there isn't any "One" to understnd the Dhamma. There is just the development of pa~n~naa cetasika, right understanding. So what is important is to consider carefully what the objects of such pa~n~naa are and how such pa~n~naa develops without any "One" doing anything. As others, like Sukin and Ken H, are saying - the more understanding there is about dhammas as anatta, the less inclination there is to try and do antything, even 'observing' at this moment, in order for pa~n~naa to arise. Like Ken H described, I couldn't 'try to meditate' or 'try to observe dhammas' in order for awareness to grow. Such an idea has been out of the question for me since I heard and appreciated the implications about dhammas as anatta. ... > Mike: ....(S):We have to check each word for ourselves and only panna, right understanding, can know what is right. >Mike: Sure, that's the instruction. .. ... S: It depends how it's understood. Just like anything we read in the Tipitaka, including the sections on samatha development which we're discussing with Ken O, it can all be read as statements of instructions. In fact, there's no Atta to give or follow instructions. When there is wise checking, considering, reflecting and understanding of what is read or heard, it's useful. If we take this as an instruction of what *to do*, then we miss the point of the Teachings about anatta, I believe. ... > For me, anatta means the question of "different methods" is meaningless - just cittas, cetasikas and rupas ever. As Azita and I are discussing, there can be wise consideration, right understanding when picking up the Sunday newspaper. Is this then a method? >M:Yes. You've made a particular choice of the way you approach understanding the Dhamma. I've not saying it's wrong, I'm saying there are other choices. ... S: If there are any dhammas that ever made such a "choice", I'm not aware of it. As far as I'm concerned, there are just dhammas arising and falling away now, whilst picking up and reading the paper or at any other time. We only take such 'stutations' for being 'real' or something special because of a lack of understanding of the dhammas involved. Or do you see it differently? Are 'you' making a choice at this moment? Or are there different namas, all conditioned, performing their various functions? Metta Sarah ===== #105845 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello Kevin. nilovg Dear Kevin, Good to have you back here. Like Sarah, I was also wondering, just a little while ago, how you had been. Enjoyed reading your sympathetic posts, Nina. Op 9-mrt-2010, om 23:54 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > Hi everyone. This is Kevin (the ex-monk, Dhammavindo) who was in > Bangkok last year. #105846 From: "Mike" Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) mikenz66 Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Or do you see it differently? Mike: Of course I see it differently. I see a huge logical problem in the argument used here that the approach that others are taking to the Dhamma is "all about control" but the approach that you take is somehow immune to that problem. Mike: As far as I can see, any argument about how such-and-such a technique reinforces a sense of self can be applied equally well to your approach. I don't dispute that it's possible to reinforce the "self that is a good meditator". But it's also possible to reinforce the "self that has a good understanding of anatta". I'm not saying you're doing the latter, but I don't see any reason to think that it's any less of a problem than the former. Mike: As I said, I don't really see much point in pursuing this debate. The arguments have already been repeated many times. Metta Mike #105847 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:21 am Subject: [dsg] Discussions in Bgk and K.K., no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Kh S: N: One may have doubts about rebirth, wondering whether it is not the same person anymore that is reborn. Kh Sujin: N: Lukas wants to hear more about the present moment. Kh S: What appears now is not theoretical, it is reality. Hardness is hardness, no matter what name we give it. That which experiences hardness is a reality. At what moment? N: It must be now. I say it, but it is not realized as such. Kh S: Whenever hardness appears, is that not present? When it does not appear it is gone, is that present? When it has not come yet, is that present? When a reality is the object of citta, the element which experiences it, no matter which term we use, it is present, it is there. Pa~n~naa can experience the arising and falling away of it. Pa~n`naa can see what is past, because that which appeared has gone. What has not come yet is future, but when it comes it is present. Is this Sutta or Abhidhamma? The Dhamma in the Sutta is not different from the Dhamma in the Abhidhamma. When the Buddha taught Abhidhamma he did so without the situations and events, the stories about places and people. N: The Buddha pointed to the development of all realities in daily life, no matter he taught Sutta or Abhidhamma. ***** Nina. #105848 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) kenhowardau Hi Mike (and Sarah), Sorry for butting in - again. :-) -------- <. . .> > Mike: Of course I see it differently. I see a huge logical problem in the argument used here that the approach that others are taking to the Dhamma is "all about control" but the approach that you take is somehow immune to that problem. --------- Let's be clear about what those two approaches are. The approach the other people are taking is to understand the Dhamma as a list of things to do. The approach Sarah is taking to understand the Dhamma as a description of absolute reality. --------------- > Mike: As far as I can see, any argument about how such-and-such a technique reinforces a sense of self can be applied equally well to your approach. --------------- There is a big difference between a 'technique' and an 'understanding', isn't there? So I can't see why an argument against the former would necessarily be an argument against the latter. --------------------- M: > I don't dispute that it's possible to reinforce the "self that is a good meditator". But it's also possible to reinforce the "self that has a good understanding of anatta". --------------------- If you see the Dhamma as a list of things to do then, of course, there will be an idea of a self as doer. If you understand the Dhamma as a description of paramattha dhammas then where is the idea of a self? There is no suggestion of doing anything. Just a description. ------------------------------- M: > I'm not saying you're doing the latter, but I don't see any reason to think that it's any less of a problem than the former. ------------------------------- I can't see how it is a problem at all, let alone an equal problem. ------------------------------------ > Mike: As I said, I don't really see much point in pursuing this debate. The arguments have already been repeated many times. ------------------------------------ It is a pity that our discussions so often seem like a debate. But the main thing is to get the message across. 'The Dhamma is a description of absolute reality; it is not a list of things to do.' Ken H #105849 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:42 am Subject: Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) scottduncan2 Dear Mike (and Sarah), Regarding: Mike: "...I see a huge logical problem in the argument used here that the approach that others are taking to the Dhamma is 'all about control' but the approach that you take is somehow immune to that problem. As far as I can see, any argument about how such-and-such a technique reinforces a sense of self can be applied equally well to your approach..." Scott: I don't see anyone here (save the jhaana-enthusiasts) advocating an 'approach' at all. People enamoured of 'buddhism' seem so into 'practice' and 'approaches' and 'method' that these are automatically assumed whenever Dhamma is considered. Or do you somehow imagine that someone here is suggesting that the approach is to set out to have no approach and that this would somehow be a very clever and subtle way of 'creating conditions' for the development of wisdom? Are you imagining that one is suggesting that the way around the paradox based on a fact that there is no self to practice is to take this fact, use it as a technique, and 'practice' anyway - like sort of sneak up on wisdom and ambush it? Rather than imagining an 'approach' that would, of necessity, involve one having to do something, what do you think of the idea that there is no 'practice' (as conceived of conventionally by 'buddhist' do-it-your-selfers) - there is no 'approach' at all? Sincerely, Scott. #105850 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Non-Buddhists have never attained full Jhana ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >What you've said doesn't change much of what I've said before. KO:? that is nothing much to say about this, because it is as said in the text, sutta also pointed that way. > >Actually it is. MN120 doesn't require Jhana for rebirth even in Aruppa planes. This is accordance with the teaching on full Jhana being available only to Buddhists and solely the ability of Buddhists. KO:?? Jhanas is not the exclusive of Buddhists.? Non-Buddhist before Buddha becomes a Buddha have already attained jhanas.? ? Even Buddha in his past lives also attain jhanas in numerous lives.? See MN 26, where Buddha learn arupa jhanas from two ascetics before he is a Buddha.? The only jhanas that exclusive of Buddhis?are the cessation of thoughts (i hope I get the wordings rights) and supramundane jhanas. > >Note: The requirements are clearly stated as "a bhikkhu possesses faith, virture, learning, generosity and wisdom". It doesn't say that Bhikkhu posseses Sati or Samma-Samadhi. > >If that Bhikkhu is an outsider, then he can never achieved proper Buddhist Jhana which requires confidence in Buddha's teaching. Outsiders and holders of other views do not believe the Buddha, so they cannot overcome the hindrance of doubt. KO:? If there is no panna, there is no samma samadhi.? Samma is only possible with panna.? If you look at Visud, again, before one attain samantha bhavana, it is virtue, learning and wisdom before jhanas.? Generosity and faith arise with kusala cittas.? When panna arise, it is always kusala. >> The last paragrah >> <<37? Here, bikkhus,?a bhikkhu possesses faith, virture, learning, generosity and wisdom.He thinks "Oh, that by realising for myself with direct knowledge.? I might here and now enter upon and deliverence of mind and deliverance by wisdom that taintless with the destruction of the taint.? And by realsiing for himself with direct knowledge, he here and now enters upon and abides in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints.? Bhikkhu, this bhikkhu does not reappear anywhere at all. >> > >Here it talks about achievement of maggaphla, and here it mentions "deliverence of mind " which includes full Jhana. KO:? I have advise you to be truthful.? What you have done is taking parts of the sutta to support your theory of jhanas.? No panna means no jhanas, this?is?applicable to?Buddhist or non-Buddhist.? > >Remember the famous Dhp quote of "no wisdom without Jhana" and nibbana requiring Jhana and wisdom? KO:? that does not change a thing about developing wisdom.? One could develop wisdom without jhanas and Buddha is very clear about it, this is the vipassana method.?? Even for samantha method, there must be panna.? Cheers Ken O #105851 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Jon I mean guidance of a method given by from teacher.? ?for eg 32 parts as in Visud,?recite not too fast or too slow.? Ken O >? >Hi KenO > >(105803) >> >J: My point was that the Dispeller is describing the guidance given by teachers to their students; it is not purporting to itself be a guide to persons wishing to develop samatha/insight of the kind described. >> > >> KO: Definitely it cannot be for a person who wish because person must have the accumulations to take the subject. Guidance means guidance of a method given which is very clear in the texts. >> ============ === > >J: Yes, but I'm now confused as to what you are claiming. Does the 'guidance of a method given' come from the teacher, or are you saying that the Dispeller provides that guidance so that the development is possible by reference to the Dispeller alone without the need for a teacher? > >Jon > #105852 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:54 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 scottduncan2 Dear Ken O (and Jon), Regarding: K: "I mean guidance of a method given by from teacher.? ?for eg 32 parts as in Visud,?recite not too fast or too slow." Scott: If I may. I suggested to Mike that no one here is advocating a method, knowing that in this thread it seems as if you are. It's an interesting discussion since you and Jon see eye-to-eye on many basics. This isn't just some newcomer or jhaana-fan making patently oppositional statements. I find your stance interesting. I was returned in my thoughts to the whole notion of 'walking meditation.' I've stated before that this whole enterprise is the epitome of what is absurd about having a 'method' or a 'practice.' Walking slowly - even methodically - is a charactiture of 'mindfulness.' What do you think of that whole thing? How do you think it compares with 'not too fast or too slow' - which seems absurd to me. Sincerely, Scott. #105853 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Or do you see it differently? > > Mike: Of course I see it differently. I see a huge logical problem in the argument used here that the approach that others are taking to the Dhamma is "all about control" but the approach that you take is somehow immune to that problem. > > Mike: As far as I can see, any argument about how such-and-such a technique reinforces a sense of self can be applied equally well to your approach. I don't dispute that it's possible to reinforce the "self that is a good meditator". But it's also possible to reinforce the "self that has a good understanding of anatta". I'm not saying you're doing the latter, but I don't see any reason to think that it's any less of a problem than the former. > > Mike: As I said, I don't really see much point in pursuing this debate. The arguments have already been repeated many times. > > Metta > Mike Hello Mike, All, Mike, you make a valid point. DSG argument "it is just Self trying to control" can be equally well applied to "visiting Bkk, listening to KS, considering and studying Dhamma, increasing understanding" . It is possible to meditate without any self view, or controlling ("let this state arise." or "I don't want this state!") As you and I well know, the Buddhist teachers do spend considerable time at talking about not-controlling, non-doing, etc. With metta, Alex #105854 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:21 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, >In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > J: When a person meditates, is there only kusala? When there is akusala, then one is no longer properly meditating. > To my understanding, there cannot be continuous kusala, And meditation is impermanent because of that. > on 32 kayagatasati parts recitation: msg#105839 >J: I think it's meant to be part of a general description rather >than an instruction. A recitation is not samatha bhavana unless it >is accompanied by panna, and the text does not explain how a >recitation is to be done so that it is accompanied by panna. Yes, recitation whether vocal or mental is part of a bigger set of instructions. However if you pick and choose the ingridients, you won't be able to bake a cake. Sometimes "picking and choosing" what to do and what not to do, is merely the work of kilesas who do not want to do something that will destroy them. Maybe they are so smart that they use excuses like "you're too good to do this kindergarden practice. Do something more advanced. Or, don't do too much, remember that doing meditation is just sakkayaditthi." With metta, Alex #105855 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) scottduncan2 Dear Alex (and Mike), Regarding: A: "Mike, you make a valid point. DSG argument 'it is just Self trying to control' can be equally well applied to 'visiting Bkk, listening to KS, considering and studying Dhamma, increasing understanding' ..." Scott: Of course you'd subsume Mike's supposed good point into your own. I've suggested to Howard that you are oblivious and this is a classic example. You persist in misrepresenting things by suggesting that 'visiting Bkk' or 'listening to KS' or 'considering and studying Dhamma' are things that are done as a 'practice' or a 'method' to 'increase understanding' despite having this explained to you endlessly. Anyone who would do these things as a 'method' or a 'practice' would be, in my opinion, a complete cretin. This is only a testament to the imperviousness of the extremely seductive wrong view about 'deliberate practice.' This whole view is, in my opinion, an orifice up which it is very possible to have one's head very, very deeply inserted. ;-) Please continue to misrepresent things though... Sincerely, Scott. #105856 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >... >S: I think that when concentration is given as "the proximate cause", it is referring to the right concentration which arises with the right understanding. They are both proximate condition for each other. At the moment of enlightenment, such concentration is, as you know, equivalent in strength to that of jhana. KO:? I went to check actually the proximate cause for wisdom?is concentration or 4 noble truth according to the Perfections Chapter 4 and A Treatise of Paramis.??Because you are only thinking of vipassana method, your conclusion is base on they are both proximate condition for each other.? Firstly it is rather not correct even in vipassana method, because during enlightment, panna is abhi cetasika, it is also?the indriya and hetu paccaya, so it is panna that conditions all other factors to be right and not for each other even though they arise together.? ?Secondly,?mundane jhanas could be used as a basis to insight, it is said in the suttas and Visud.?? IMHO,? the promixate cause for?concentration?is there refering to jhanas as samantha bhavana as main support for panna that lead to enlightement whle 4NT refers to vipassana as the main support for panna that leads to enlightment, > >Of course, it's not a matter of choice as to what kind of kusala (or akusala) arises and not, we'd say, a matter of 'doing' or 'not doing', of 'sticking to vipassana' or 'not sticking to anything'. It's a matter of just understanding the presently appearing dhammas, regardless of whether they are seeing, visible object or even frustration now! It all comes back to this moment every time. KO:?? I am not concern about words doing or not doing, or choice or no choice?because it is DSG or non-DSG percularity about such wordings as though they are some kind of?holy grail.??Dhamma?dont bother about such words.? If non-DSG?say it should be a choice or do, or DSG who said it is not a choice or not doing, it is?just each person?understanding or accumulations.? What choose, it is accumulations that conditions to choose, what do, it is accumulation that conditions to?do.? What choose, it is chanda or lobha, what do, it is still?chanda or lobha.? ?? Simple as that, no need to go on lengthy discussion about such things.? As?again,?I here to explain dhamma according to the texts?:and also dont forget about the accumulations of this moment even if it comes back at this moment every time.? :-).? Cheers Ken O #105857 From: Ken O Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Scott We must differentiate samantha and vipassana bhavana.? Walking meditation, I dont think this is describe in Visud very well or not at all, I did not check on this.? Rather it is breathing meditation that is the used or describe in details in Visud.? Breathing is samantha bhavana, rupa (air element) is vipassana.? So it depends on the object of discerning. I cannot discount the materials presented in Visud, even in other Abhidhamma text and sutta commentaries, there was clear description on the steps?of?breathing or 32 parts samantha bhavana,??I cannot said there is no method or set of instructions given.? IMHO,?to said that it is no such things that is not in?accordance to the texts.?? I am most happy you would like to join in and pse do quote provide textual support if you said there is no method. ? Dont said it is absurb because I could said that too, provide textual support to your?assertations.??? Also before we proceed, I do said that?I am basing on the person who have the eradicate the ten minor impedients, the right monastary and the correct teacher etc as describe in the Visud.? I am not talking about a person who listens or just read the anapasati sutta and think one could do it. No panna, no samantha or vipassana.? that is the universal rule. Cheers Ken O #105858 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 scottduncan2 Dear Ken O, Regarding: K: "We must differentiate samantha and vipassana bhavana.? Walking meditation, I dont think this is describe in Visud very well or not at all, I did not check on this.? Rather it is breathing meditation that is the used or describe in details in Visud.? Breathing is samantha bhavana, rupa (air element) is vipassana.? So it depends on the object of discerning." Scott: Yes, I appreciate the attention to detail. It is important to be precise in these matters. I am referring to 'method' in general. K: "I cannot discount the materials presented in Visud, even in other Abhidhamma text and sutta commentaries, there was clear description on the steps?of?breathing or 32 parts samantha bhavana,??I cannot said there is no method or set of instructions given.? IMHO,?to said that it is no such things that is not in?accordance to the texts." Scott: If we accept that mundane jhaana is possible then we must as well accept that it arises according to a certain set of conditions and that it arises when and only when these are in place. Given this, is it surprising that a sequence of events would need to occur in order for access or absorption to obtain? No. No one is saying that jhaana wasn't 'practiced' in the Buddha's time. And you agree with this and I agree with you on this. Does this argue in favour of 'method?'?? K: "I am most happy you would like to join in and pse do quote provide textual support if you said there is no method. ? Dont said it is absurb because I could said that too, provide textual support to your?assertations." Scott: No, Ken. There is a text offered about which differing interpretations are being offered. I see no need to offer another textual reference while this one is on the table. You assert it means 'method' and Jon disagrees. We don't need to get all 'quote-me-a-text' about this. I can state an opinion that a given interpretation of a text is absurd without having to provide a textual corroboration. It's my opinion.??You can cite me ;-) I'm just interested in hearing more of your ideas about how a 'method' stands up to the underlying 'anattaness' of things.? K: "Also before we proceed, I do said that?I am basing on the person who have the eradicate the ten minor impedients, the right monastary and the correct teacher etc as describe in the Visud.? I am not talking about a person who listens or just read the anapasati sutta and think one could do it. No panna, no samantha or vipassana.? that is the universal rule." Scott: I agree fully and accept that we are dealing with this hypothetical sort of person. Sincerely, Scott. #105859 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Non-Buddhists have never attained full Jhana truth_aerator Dear KenO, All, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > > > > >What you've said doesn't change much of what I've said before. > >KO:? that is nothing much to say about this, because it is as said >in the text, sutta also pointed that way. > > > > > >Actually it is. MN120 doesn't require Jhana for rebirth even in >Aruppa planes. This is accordance with the teaching on full Jhana >being available only to Buddhists and solely the ability of >Buddhists. > > KO:?? Jhanas is not the exclusive of Buddhists.? Non-Buddhist >before Buddha becomes a Buddha have already attained jhanas. They couldn't attain Jhana, because jhana requires suppresion of 5 hindrances. Without belief in triple gem you cannot suppres 5th hindrance. Without understanding of anatta, you cannot fully suppress the the first two hindrances. >See MN 26, where Buddha learn arupa jhanas from two ascetics before >he is a Buddha.? The only jhanas that exclusive of Buddhis?are the >cessation of thoughts (i hope I get the wordings rights) and >supramundane jhanas. It is not very certain that they have achieved the real Jhana states. More likely those teachers have achieved a diluted version of those states. If they did, why didn't it lead to Nibbana, while Jhana is the path to awakening (MN36). Jhana, including aruppas, lead to Nibbana. His teachers' attainments didn't lead to Nibbana, but base of nothingness does lead to Nibbana (MN52). If they taught "Jhana", then why did the Buddha remembered his Jhana as a child and not their Jhana states? Why was it only the Buddha that has awoken to Jhana (SN 2.7)? > > KO:? that does not change a thing about developing wisdom.? One could develop wisdom without jhanas and Buddha is very clear about it, this is the vipassana method.?? Even for samantha method, there must be panna.? > > > > Cheers > Ken O Are you saying that N8P is not needed and one can stick to N7P? What about MN64 which says that it is impossible to reach anagami stage or higher without Jhana? What about AN9.36 that says: "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the the dimension of nothingness" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html If Alara Kalama really attained base of nothingness, then why didn't he become awakened? === "I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then ? quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities ? I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html Why did the Buddha not recollect his two teachers that were more recent and were supposed to have even higher attainments (7th and 8th vs 1st Jhana?) Jhanas and aruppa lead to awakening. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.052.than.html With metta, Alex #105860 From: "connie" Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:03 pm Subject: vism revisited, ch.17 nichiconn dear Nina, Larry, All, The group's files section now has a folder called z-Vism XVII and Cy Study, where you can find Nina's two .doc files. There are Mac and PC versions of the pCharter font available from Zolag.co.uk if you don't already have them installed. I'm sure pt or James or ??? would be willing to help anyone with that if need be. peace, connie #105861 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Non-Buddhists have never attained full Jhana scottduncan2 Dear Alex (and Jhaana-enthusiasts), Regarding: KO: "Jhanas is not the exclusive of Buddhists.? Non-Buddhist >before Buddha becomes a Buddha have already attained jhanas." A: "They couldn't attain Jhana, because jhana requires suppresion of 5 hindrances. Without belief in triple gem you cannot suppres 5th hindrance. Without understanding of anatta, you cannot fully suppress the the first two hindrances...It is not very certain that they have achieved the real Jhana states. More likely those teachers have achieved a diluted version of those states. If they did, why didn't it lead to Nibbana, while Jhana is the path to awakening..." Scott: This is so wrong in so many ways. I mean I've never seen any of this stated anywhere. This is a total misunderstanding of jhaana. I really hope some of your jhaana-fan colleagues can come in to clear this up for you - maybe you'll listen to them. Sincerely, Scott. #105862 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello everyone farrellkevin80 ________________________________ Alex: "What you describe above is a sort of practice where you consider all that happens to be just citta, cetasika, rupa. The influencing and setting causes for future panna to arise you have described as " When that is understood, there are conditions for amoha to accumulate, eventually to the degree where it is not just conceptual, but where it penetrates the Four Noble Truths. " Similar is with other meditations. One understands more and more that whatever arises is just citta, cetasika and rupa that is anicca, dukkha, anatta. So here you are not describing the purpose of meditation, to understand. With metta, Alex" Kevin: Dear Alex, wisdom is not self, nor is it gained by a self. It (wisdom) is a dhamma, a reality, a thing. It arises based upon certain conditions only. Striving for inumerable, uncountable aeons has not produced the result of wisdom which understands not-self. It has it's specific causes and conditions. In friendliness, Be well, Kevin #105863 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello everyone truth_aerator Dear Kevin, and all, > Kevin: Dear Alex, wisdom is not self, nor is it gained by a self. Exactly. I agree 100% that all things are anatta. >It (wisdom) is a dhamma, a reality, a thing. It arises based upon >certain conditions only. Of course. A plant requires certain conditions, ex: the seed, fertile soil, moisture, sun, and cultivation. You cannot control a plant, but you can cultivate it. It is true that we cannot control the weather. But a person can put on a thicker jacket in winter, or lighter clothing in hot summer. A person cannot control "Let there be no-thirst!", but s/he can drink the water and quench the thirst. Same with cultivating of wisdom. Right causes have to be set and cultivate, like a farmer would do with crops. With metta, Alex #105864 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:15 am Subject: Right Concentration! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: What is this Sublime Right Concentration? <...> The Buddha explained The 4-fold definition of Right Concentration: Having eliminated the 5 mental hindrances, mental defects that obstruct understanding, quite secluded from sensual desires, protected from any detrimental mental state, one enters and dwells in the 1st jhana; full of joy and pleasure born of solitude, joined with directed and sustained thought. One makes this joy and pleasure born of seclusion drench, saturate, soak, and suffuse the body, so that no part of the entire body is unperfused by this intense joy and pleasure! Just as a skilled bath-man puts soap powder in a copper basin and sprinkling it gradually with water, whips it until the water soaks and pervades all the soap powder, yet without dripping, so too, does the noble friend make the joy and pleasure born of solitude permeate and pervade the entire body! Again, friends, with the stilling of directed and sustained thought, one enters and dwells in the 2nd jhana: a calmed assurance of unification of mind with even deeper joy and pleasure now born of concentration, devoid of any thought! One makes this exquisite joy and pleasure born of concentration drench, saturate, soak, & suffuse the body, so no part of the whole body is unperfused by this profound joy and pleasure: Just as a lake whose waters welled up from below within it itself, & it had no other sources neither by showers of rain, then this cool fount of water welling up from deep within would immerse, fill, & pervade the entire lake, even and exactly so does one make this joy & pleasure born of concentration infuse this entire body! Furthermore, friends, with the fading away of the joy, the friend dwells in even equanimity, just aware & clearly comprehending, still feeling pleasure in the body, one enters upon and remains in the 3rd jhana, regarding which the Noble Ones declare: "In aware equanimity one dwells in pleasure!" One makes the pleasure apart from of joy flood, saturate, soak, and suffuse the body, so that there is no part of one's whole body unperfused by this pleasure divested of joy... Just as in a lotus pond some lotuses are born, grow and thrive immersed under the water & the cool water soaks them from their roots to their tips, so too, do the noble friend make the pleasure divested of joy drench, fill, flood and pervade this entire body. Finally, friends, with the leaving behind of both pleasure and pain, and with the prior disappearance of both joy and sorrow, one enters and dwells in the 4th jhana; a completely stilled mental state of awareness, purified by an equanimity of neither-pain-nor-pleasure. One sits illuminating the body internally with this pure bright mind, so that there is no part of one's whole body not illuminated by this pure bright mind! Just as a man were sitting covered from the head down with a white cloth, so that no part of his whole body was uncovered by this white textile; even so does one sit encompassing this entire body with a pure bright & radiant mind, so that there is no part of one's whole body not illuminated by this pure, bright, and luminous mind... Comment: No trivial worldly pleasure can ever surpass such sublime bliss! The Function of Right concentration and its associates is: Seeing right/wrong concentration as right/wrong concentration, is right view. Exchanging wrong concentration with right concentration is right effort. Right concentration functions as a drill: Focusing, unifying, & penetrating! Concentration induces the intense Breakthrough! <...> Root texts by the Buddha: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-samadhi.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/jhana.html The Jhanas in Theravadin Buddhist Meditation: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel351.html Complete Manual on Meditation and Absorption: The Path of Purification: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Have a nice, noble and concentrated day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #105865 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello everyone farrellkevin80 ________________________________ Alex: "Dear Kevin, and all, > Kevin: Dear Alex, wisdom is not self, nor is it gained by a self. Alex: Exactly. I agree 100% that all things are anatta. >It (wisdom) is a dhamma, a reality, a thing. It arises based upon >certain conditions only. Alex: Of course. A plant requires certain conditions, ex: the seed, fertile soil, moisture, sun, and cultivation. You cannot control a plant, but you can cultivate it. It is true that we cannot control the weather. But a person can put on a thicker jacket in winter, or lighter clothing in hot summer. A person cannot control "Let there be no-thirst!", but s/he can drink the water and quench the thirst. Same with cultivating of wisdom. Right causes have to be set and cultivate, like a farmer would do with crops. With metta, Alex" Kevin: Hi Alex. Think about what is being cultivated though and what conditions it. What is being cultivated (or what cultivates more accurately) is the understanding that arising dhammas, all of them, are not-self. Do you think that deciding that a person goes out and accomplishes this feat will condition more thinking along the lines of "this person does something"? Or do you think that will cultivate instances of understanding not-self? The only way that the understanding of not-self (which is itself panna cetasika) can grow is through understanding that things are totally anatta. Trying to do and see impermanence, not-self, and dukkha condition the opposite of the wisdom that knows not-self, they cultivate self-view because we keep thinking a person can go out and do, accomplish. Their opposite is needed to cultivate wisdom. In fact, wisdom of the conceptual level and wisdom of the penetrative level are both panna. The thing is that wisdom on the conceptual level must come first. It conditions wisdom on the penetrative level. This is clear not just from what Khun Sujin says, or what anybody else says, but from the Abhidhamma itself. When we meditate and do a "technique" (which, trust me, I have done and have some experience with) we may see a lot of impermanence, not-self and dukkha. We may see a lot of it, but it is all conceptual. It is not wisdom that penetrates. Even though maybe some conceptual wisdom is gained, no real progress can ever really be made because the idea of "self" is just conditioned again and again by affirming that "we" can go out and acquire this wisdom. That is not the case. What thinks that is self-view and moha, delusion. We must not strengthen delusion. In fact, "we"doesn't even come into play. We think there is a we, but there is not. There is simply citta arising with cetasikas such as delusion, attachment, and aversion, all of which are anatta dhammas that arise beyond the control of any doer. No doer is there Alex. Thinking that there is is the real problem. __._,_.__ _ #105866 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello everyone farrellkevin80 ________________________________ Sarah: "Hi Kevin, Good to see you around again! I hope your studies are going well in NY. We were just wondering about you recently... I'll look forward to more discussion with you here and to reading your messages..." Kevin: Hi Sarah. Thank you for thinking of me. I have thought about all the people from the Foundation many times. I think there will be a lot of good conversation here that I am happy to be able to witness and from time to time participate in. Are you and Jon still in China? Sarah: When the sacca-nana (understanding of the truth) is not firm enough, there's bound to be all sorts of wavering. This is why the careful listening, considering and questioning is so very important. Metta Sarah" This is so true Sarah. sacca-nana not being firm in me I experienced wrong views. Kevin #105867 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello Kevin. farrellkevin80 ________________________________ Nina: "Dear Kevin, Good to have you back here. Like Sarah, I was also wondering, just a little while ago, how you had been. Enjoyed reading your sympathetic posts, Nina. Op 9-mrt-2010, om 23:54 heeft Kevin Farrell het volgende geschreven: > Hi everyone. This is Kevin (the ex-monk, Dhammavindo) who was in > Bangkok last year." Dear Nina, so good to hear from you. All that I can say to you is thank you very much. I love your books and I was very glad to be able to meet you and listen to you. Hopefully I will be able to again in the future. Yours truly, Kevin P.S. I am very glad to be able to participate here. #105868 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello everyone truth_aerator Hello Kevin, all, > Kevin: Hi Alex. Think about what is being cultivated though and >what conditions it. What is being cultivated (or what cultivates >more accurately) is the understanding that arising dhammas, all of >them, are not-self. Do you think that deciding that a person goes >out and accomplishes this feat will condition more thinking along >the lines of "this person does something"? I don't meditate with clinging to a view of "I want to accomplish something. Often the thought doesn't even occur. I am sure that many people are like that. It is what many meditation teachers do teach and emphasize. Like me, they are against cartoonish view that one can wish insight or samatha to occur. >The only way that the understanding of not-self (which is itself >panna cetasika) can grow is through understanding that things are >totally anatta. And that understanding, is gained drop by drop in meditation and in being aware. That understanding is gained most clearly in meditation, where you can see thoughts, feelings, intentions, etc, come and go without any Self controlling them. Do you think that any wise meditator believe that he can control? Of course not! At first it is conceptual, but eventually it digs down to the experiential. The more one considers and observes impermanence, the more dispassion there is. With more dispassion, there is less craving. The less craving there is, the less clinging is. One of 4 types of clinging is clinging to views. So one does weaken the clinging to views through ,lets say, anicca meditation. >K: When we meditate and do a "technique" (which, trust me, I have >done and have some experience with) we may see a lot of >impermanence, not-self and dukkha. We may see a lot of it, but it >is all conceptual. It is funny how you call meditative wisdom conceptual, yet KS and book knowledge to be somehow better and less conceptual. IMHO reading about impermanence and SEEING it, is much different. Being aware of anicca while sitting with closed eyes in a calm environment with a calm mind, allows you to notice and see it better. Consider this analogue. Lets say the whole sidewalk is filled with leaves. It is hard to notice when another leave falls to the heap, or some leave is carried away by the wind. But when there is only ONE leaf, it is much easier to see it come and go. Same in meditation. > > > It is not wisdom that penetrates. Even though maybe some >conceptual wisdom is gained, no real progress can ever really be >made because the idea of "self" is just conditioned again and again >by affirming that "we" can go out and acquire this wisdom. That is not how real meditation is done. One cannot wish for insight to arise, and neither would insight arise without any causes being set. You see to repeat the standard line that "meditation requires doing. By doing you just reinforce self view". Ok then. Don't do anything. Don't eat anything, don't drink anything, don't put on any cloth, don't move any limbs, etc. That way you will not be doing anything, but Buddha didn't say it. Any activity can be done with view of "Self that does". One can read and visit Bkk with an underlying self view trying to understand, hear the dhamma, see KS, trying to consider, etc. One can also meditate with or without the Self view. So all your arguments can be used for DSG teaching. Trying to consider Dhamma? Thats just Self trying to Know, to acquire knowledge. With metta, Alex #105869 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:13 am Subject: This site farrellkevin80 Jon and Sarah, do you guys maintain and moderate this group/site? This site is absolutely amazing. Reading through some old posts here there is so much wisdom and good Dhamma discussion here. What a great service to the Dhamma. kevin #105870 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello everyone scottduncan2 Dear Alex (and Kevin and 'meditation'-experts), Regarding: A: "I don't meditate with clinging to a view...The only way that the understanding of not-self...And that understanding, is gained drop by drop in meditation and in being aware. That understanding is gained most clearly in meditation, where you can see thoughts, feelings, intentions, etc, come and go without any Self controlling them..." Scott: Again, I wish your jhaana-advocate friends would help you out. Your assertions about 'meditation' are becoming wilder and less lucid (if this were possible!). Now you are saying that jhaana-citta is accompanied by pa~n~naa cetasika during 'meditation' when, actually, jhaana-citta suppresses defilements and there would be nothing to see but the object of concentration - and no pa~n~naa during moments of jhaana. Man, are you mixed up. ;-) Someone help this guy, please... Sincerely, Scott. #105871 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hello everyone farrellkevin80 ________________________________ Scott: "Dear Alex (and Kevin and 'meditation' -experts) , Regarding: A: "I don't meditate with clinging to a view...The only way that the understanding of not-self...And that understanding, is gained drop by drop in meditation and in being aware. That understanding is gained most clearly in meditation, where you can see thoughts, feelings, intentions, etc, come and go without any Self controlling them..." Scott: Again, I wish your jhaana-advocate friends would help you out. Your assertions about 'meditation' are becoming wilder and less lucid (if this were possible!). Now you are saying that jhaana-citta is accompanied by pa~n~naa cetasika during 'meditation' when, actually, jhaana-citta suppresses defilements and there would be nothing to see but the object of concentration - and no pa~n~naa during moments of jhaana. Man, are you mixed up. ;-) Someone help this guy, please... Sincerely, Scott." xxx I do not know why the SamamsamBuddha taugh the Dhamma if people are just going to add a self to it (as if that were possible). The difference between realities and concepts must be understood. Robert K once extracted the chapter on Realities and Concepts from Khun Sujins, A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas and posted it online. Yet, the followers do not read it, the mana and self-view being so strong, people delight in wrong-views and reject the Abhidhamma, thinking that there must be a self that can perceive these truths the Buddha realized. Yet, no self does so. Only the cetasika of panna does. That is not self. A realized person does not own or control the cetasika of panna, which is what understands and which is what "realizes", or "penetrates". Nobody ever realizes the dhamma, a cetasika understands. It does not belong to a being. Nobody ever has been, self-view, mana, and lobha have arisen. Kevin #105872 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (4) sarahprocter... Dear Lukas, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Sarah and all, > > > 3. Not doing - > > Sariputta didn'tknow he would meet Assaji or what he'd hear. > > The most important thing is understanding thinking (and any other realities) as no self. More important than details. > > L: Thanks for that Sarah I have forgotten this. This is so nice to hear that, I forget this is of the most imoprtant to learn in life all is conditioned and not mine. I am greateful to Ajahn that she explained this with such braveness. > Even akusala we can learn this is not mine, conditioned. This is true, very according How Dhamma is. ... S: Yes, I appreciated your comments too. Just the understanding now of dhammas -- such as seeing or thinking as anatta -- is much more important than any long quotes or details. It always comes back to the understanding now. Pls keep joining in with your helpful reminders. Metta Sarah ===== #105873 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta sarahprocter... Dear pt (& Scott), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Scott, > > Thanks for examining this topic in detail. > > > "...One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom (ime dhammaa eva.m pa~n~naaya mattaso nijjhaana.m khamanti, aya.m vuccati) is called a Dhamma-follower (dhammaanusaarii) , one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of worldlings.. .One who knows and sees these teachings thus (ime dhamme eva.m pajaanaati eva.m passati, aya.m vuccati) is called a stream-enterer (sotaapanno) , no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. " > > pt: So, is there a definition somewhere about what particular vipassana nana a dhammanusarin has reached? I.e. I'm assuming that "pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom" is not yet equal to stream-entry, though I might be wrong of course. Perhaps on that basis we can establish the difference between a cula-sotpanna and a dhammanusarin. .... S: I think "pondering" is an under-statement (or under-translation). Here we we see it is the description of the stream-enterer, having "entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of worldlings". It is referring to the lokuttara cittas, the magga cittas of the sotapanna, as I think I suggested before. Metta Sarah p.s. Scott, thank your for the Pali and this translation. ======= #105874 From: "sarah" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > S: Yes, I did see it, but am very behind with replies. I greatly appreciated your further comments on this point and was interested to read your reasoning. The Ledi Sayadaw comments reminded me of a quote from the Kvu which I've given before. More later perhaps. An early start tomorrow, so time to close down. > > Ken O, just remembered you did reply to the 20 statements and hedged your bets on no 16. :-) Not sure if you're still on the fence or hedge on this one. > > -------------------- > > Han: Thank you very much for your reply. > I do not understand what you mean by hedging my bets on any one of these statements. > But, never mind! It is okay. ... S: Apologies for not being clear - the note about "hedging bets" was meant for Ken O as he'd made a comment about not agreeing or disagreeing with it, or something along those lines and this was a little joke. Your replies and comments were all very clear. Thank you for your other very kind comments. I also admire your dedication to and keen discernment of the Dhamma. It was such a pleasure to see you again as well and to meet your grandson. We look forward to another such occasion. Metta Sarah ====== #105875 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] vism revisited, ch.17 nilovg Dear Connie and friends, Op 10-mrt-2010, om 22:03 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > The group's files section now has a folder called z-Vism XVII and > Cy Study, where you can find Nina's two .doc files. > There are Mac and PC versions of the pCharter font available from > Zolag.co.uk if you don't already have them installed. I'm sure pt > or James or ??? would be willing to help anyone with that if need be. -------- N: Alan wrote to me: she can download pCharter from my web site at You do not need a font for the pdf as it contains it already but for doc you do. Go to the bottom, pali fonts and there you find them for Mac and for P.C. Nina. #105876 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your clarification about "hedging bets". We (my grandson and I) benefitted a lot by meeting with you, Jon, and Nina and Lodewijk. We will meet again if there is the *cause* or *condition*. I have just been listening to a tape by a Burmese monk about Dependent Origination. He said that when two people meet it is not without a cause. When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. (Iti imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti, imassuppaadaa ida.m uppajjati). Respectfully, Han #105877 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Hello everyone scottduncan2 Dear Kevin (and Alex), Regarding: K: "...The difference between realities and concepts must be understood..." Scott: Agreed. Without this understanding there is a lot of room for error. I think that an ability to make this distinction is a great boon when it comes to considering the Dhamma - and I guess here I'm referring to a pariyatti-level of understanding. Suttas are not easy to understand and I think many are over-confident in their claims to understand without basic Abhidhamma clarification. "...people delight in wrong-views and reject the Abhidhamma, thinking that there must be a self that can perceive these truths the Buddha realized. Yet, no self does so..." Scott: I was confronting Alex over his wild inconsistencies and inaccuracies. I suppose these are due in part to an inability to distinguish between concept and reality. It also seems to reflect a serious misunderstanding of jhaana as clarified by the Abhidhamma. The jhaana-advocates on the list have lately taken to claim - giving lip-service to the fact - that no self is being referred to when they go about 'creating conditions' for the arising of pa~n~naa. This is impossible. I've had enough experience with jhaana-sects by now to be leery of all of these claims. Claiming to understand anatta while talking of effort and training as if we're talking about sports or bike-riding is akin to the two-year old, standing in a room of adults with his or her hands over eyes and believing him or herself to be unseen. The pursuit of 'meditation' has become a great source of error and misunderstanding. I guess it always has been fraught with these difficulties, since many serious wrong views have come to be after misunderstanding jhaana-states. (Nowadays, in the declining Dhamma times, people are more likely mistaking lesser daydreams and mind-tricks for jhaana - it's clear to me that the jhaana-advocates have never experienced jhaana.) Sincerely, Scott. #105878 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:32 pm Subject: Non-Buddhist can not achieve Jhana truth_aerator Dear Scott, KenO all, > Scott: Again, I wish your jhaana-advocate friends would help you >out. Your assertions about 'meditation' are becoming wilder and >less lucid (if this were possible!). Yes, I am reading the suttas rather than commentaries on Jhana by those who have not reached it and deny even the possibility for most (or all) today to reach it. > Now you are saying that jhaana-citta is accompanied by pa~n~naa >cetasika during 'meditation' Again, check Dhp 372 "There is no jhana for one with no panna, no panna for one with no jhana." - Dhp 372 Another interesting thing: Jhana blinds Mara. "Suppose that a wild deer is living in wilderness glen. Carefree it walks, carefree it stands, carefree it sits, carefree it lies down. Why is that? Because it has gone beyond the hunter's range. [5] In the same way, a monk ? quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities ? enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This monk is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html If Jhana blinds "Mara", then it has to have panna. Furthermore if Brahmas are Jhana attainers (and are in a jhanic states) then why can they be possessed and controlled by Mara (see MN49 sutta for example). Also how can non-Buddhist posssess panna to reach Jhana? "No Jhana without panna" Dhp 372, - Remember? Buddha: "You are Mara, Evil One. And Brahma, and Brahma's assembly, and the attendants of Brahma's assembly have all fallen into your hands. They have all fallen into your power. And you think, "This one, too, has come into my hands, has come under my control." But, Evil One, I have neither come into your hands nor have I come under your control.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.049.than.html The suttas are clear, Jhana is for those who have panna. And those can only be followers of Dhamma, not some external sects. With metta, Alex #105879 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Scott >Scott: If we accept that mundane jhaana is possible then we must as well accept that it arises according to a certain set of conditions and that it arises when and only when these are in place. Given this, is it surprising that a sequence of events would need to occur in order for access or absorption to obtain? No. No one is saying that jhaana wasn't 'practiced' in the Buddha's time. And you agree with this and I agree with you on this. Does this argue in favour of 'method?'?? >Scott: No, Ken. There is a text offered about which differing interpretations are being offered. I see no need to offer another textual reference while this one is on the table. You assert it means 'method' and Jon disagrees. We don't need to get all 'quote-me-a- text' about this. I can state an opinion that a given interpretation of a text is absurd without having to provide a textual corroboration. It's my opinion.??You can cite me ;-) > KO:??It is not argue in favour of a method.? I am saying the text does describe a method and I cannot disclaim.? that is my honest opinion.? Just like chapter VIII, 50, Visud which clearly shows a method or a practise.? If you?think it is not a method, then I have said to Jon, you should show textual support.?I respect your understanding and Jon understanding.?? I cannot disclaim what is written in the Visud as not a method and we cannot base on our own understanding or interpretation.?? > >Scott: I agree fully and accept that we are dealing with this hypothetical sort of person. > KO:? In my?humble opinion,?it is not hypothetical, there?are such people and?it is written clearly a few times in the Visud.?? Cheers Ken O #105880 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Non-Buddhist can not achieve Jhana nilovg Dear Alexander, Op 11-mrt-2010, om 16:32 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven: > "Suppose that a wild deer is living in wilderness glen. Carefree it > walks, carefree it stands, carefree it sits, carefree it lies down. > Why is that? Because it has gone beyond the hunter's range. [5] In > the same way, a monk ? quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, > withdrawn from unskillful qualities ? enters & remains in the first > jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by > directed thought & evaluation. This monk is said to have blinded > Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become > invisible to the Evil One." ------- N: I think we should read this sutta (M.N. 26), right to the end. After the monk has attained the highest stage of jhaana he reaches nirodha samaapatti, stopping of perception and feeling, and his cankers are destroyed. This is impossible if he has not fully developed all the stages of vipassanaa. He has developed jhaana as well as vipassanaa. Nina. #105881 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 ashkenn2k Dear Sarah last night before I slept, I think on your words?<>? then i remember your?first statement,? "I think that when concentration"? so?isn't I?think?also an accumulation making a?choice, a do or stick to a point of view.? No disrepect meant or haughty about it.? I just like to say so lets discuss dhamma and not about words. cheers Ken O? >? >Dear Ken O (& Alex), > >--- On Tue, 9/3/10, Ken O wrote: > >>Panna is the key, Those who practise jhanas must emerge from jhanas,?to have insight to be enlighted.? >.... >S: True >... >>Concentration as the proximate cause for panna is refering to jhanas?used as a basis for the development of insight but they are not insight themselves.??? >... >S: I think that when concentration is given as "the proximate cause", it is referring to the right concentration which arises with the right understanding. They are both proximate condition for each other. At the moment of enlightenment, such concentration is, as you know, equivalent in strength to that of jhana. >... >>There is no need to have jhanas to have insight.? Insight is developed by panna which understand the characteristics of dhamma. >... >S: Well said. > >Of course, it's not a matter of choice as to what kind of kusala (or akusala) arises and not, we'd say, a matter of 'doing' or 'not doing', of 'sticking to vipassana' or 'not sticking to anything'. It's a matter of just understanding the presently appearing dhammas, regardless of whether they are seeing, visible object or even frustration now! It all comes back to this moment every time. > >Metta > >Sarah #105882 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Non-Buddhists have never attained full Jhana ashkenn2k Dear Alex I find you fascinating. Ok lets back to the discussions and you sure write long emails. >They couldn't attain Jhana, because jhana requires suppresion of 5 hindrances. Without belief in triple gem you cannot suppres 5th hindrance. Without understanding of anatta, you cannot fully suppress the the first two hindrances. KO: When there is kusala with panna, there is supression of the 5 hindrances. There is no need to understand anatta to suppress hindrances. You should read AN IV, 123. The Jhanas and Rebirth. >It is not very certain that they have achieved the real Jhana states. More likely those teachers have achieved a diluted version of those states. If they did, why didn't it lead to Nibbana, while Jhana is the path to awakening (MN36). > >Jhana, including aruppas, lead to Nibbana. His teachers' attainments didn't lead to Nibbana, but base of nothingness does lead to Nibbana (MN52). KO: Jhanas here mean it is the basis for insight and again I stress not insight itself. The jhanas here can also mean supramundane jhanas. And this is the stock formulae usually used, so you could quote many more suttas but the explaining to this is about the same. >What about MN64 which says that it is impossible to reach anagami stage or higher without Jhana? KO: Buddha never said that. Buddha said <> >What about AN9.36 that says: > >"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' > >"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the the dimension of nothingness" >http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ an/an09/an09. 036.than. html KO: Again, you only quote part of the text: This is from the website <<"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'>> KO: these are supramundane jhanas. Ordinary jhanas cannot discern khandhas as not self, because this wisdom of annatta can only be known with the arisen of Buddha. >If Alara Kalama really attained base of nothingness, then why didn't he become awakened? KO: bc he only suppress defilements and not eradicate them. >=== >"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' >http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.036. than.html > >Why did the Buddha not recollect his two teachers that were more recent and were supposed to have even higher attainments (7th and 8th vs 1st Jhana?) KO: Bc he does not wish to have the misunderstanding that the last two teachers are his teacher or equivalent. He has to show his own attainement through his own effort. > Now you are saying that jhaana-citta is accompanied by pa~n~naa >cetasika during 'meditation' Again, check Dhp 372 "There is no jhana for one with no panna, no panna for one with no jhana." - Dhp 372 KO: Isnt that I have been telling you, No jhanas no panna, And no panna for one with no jhanas are those for the samantha vehicle. Another interesting thing: Jhana blinds Mara. "Suppose that a wild deer is living in wilderness glen. Carefree it walks, carefree it stands, carefree it sits, carefree it lies down. Why is that? Because it has gone beyond the hunter's range. [5] In the same way, a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This monk is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One." http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.026. than.html KO: when you are under the jhanas, your defilements are suppressed. When they are suppressed, aksuala would not arise at that moment. If akusala cannot arise, how could Mara seized you, so you become invisible. If Jhana blinds "Mara", then it has to have panna. Furthermore if Brahmas are Jhana attainers (and are in a jhanic states) then why can they be possessed and controlled by Mara (see MN49 sutta for example). "You are Mara, Evil One. And Brahma, and Brahma's assembly, and the attendants of Brahma's assembly have all fallen into your hands. They have all fallen into your power. And you think, "This one, too, has come into my hands, has come under my control." But, Evil One, I have neither come into your hands nor have I come under your control.'" http://www.accessto insight.org/ tipitaka/ mn/mn.049. than.html KO: When they are in the realm of Brahmas, they are enjoying the resultants of the Brahmas. At that time, they are not in jhanas when they talk to Buddha, so definitely, it is not invisible to Mara, not surprising Mara seize one of the members. Cheers Ken O #105883 From: Ken O Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta ashkenn2k Dear pt Sarah is right,?because Dhamma follower their predominance is?wisdom, the ponder with a sufficient degree is just showing predominance.? If you have the Bodhi translation of MN, see the notes 273 and 707 cheers Ken O >> >> > "...One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom (ime dhammaa eva.m pa~n~naaya mattaso nijjhaana.m khamanti, aya.m vuccati) is called a Dhamma-follower (dhammaanusaarii) , one who has entered the fixed course of rightness, entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of worldlings.. .One who knows and sees these teachings thus (ime dhamme eva.m pajaanaati eva.m passati, aya.m vuccati) is called a stream-enterer (sotaapanno) , no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. " >> >> pt: So, is there a definition somewhere about what particular vipassana nana a dhammanusarin has reached? I.e. I'm assuming that "pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom" is not yet equal to stream-entry, though I might be wrong of course. Perhaps on that basis we can establish the difference between a cula-sotpanna and a dhammanusarin. >.... >S: I think "pondering" is an under-statement (or under-translation) . Here we we see it is the description of the stream-enterer, having "entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of worldlings". It is referring to the lokuttara cittas, the magga cittas of the sotapanna, as I think I suggested before. > >Metta > >Sarah >p.s. Scott, thank your for the Pali and this translation. >======= #105884 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:09 pm Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 scottduncan2 Dear Ken O, Regarding: KO:??"It is not argue in favour of a method.? I am saying the text does describe a method and I cannot disclaim.? that is my honest opinion.? Just like chapter VIII, 50, Visud which clearly shows a method or a practise.? If you?think it is not a method, then I have said to Jon, you should show textual support.?I respect your understanding and Jon understanding.?? I cannot disclaim what is written in the Visud as not a method and we cannot base on our own understanding or interpretation." Scott: Okay, I'm glad you clarified that you are not arguing in favour of a method. Now we have a rare opportunity to discuss the meaning of 'method' and, in general, the way in which to understand textual material of this nature - rare in the sense of not having to constantly rehash things as one does with the 'methodists.' ;-) Since we both seem to see anatta from a similar perspective, we can then wonder about this passage. We seem to agree that it is not meant to be a how-to manual for modern-day punters. The standard argument here is that it is a 'description' not a 'method' (as I believe Jon expresses). If a method, then how do you square it with anatta? What is meant to happen by adhering to this 'method?'?? KO:? "In my?humble opinion,?it is not hypothetical, there?are such people and?it is written clearly a few times in the Visud." Scott: I meant that I accept a discussion with this given: that we are dealing with such a person as we clarify the nature of 'methods' described in this way. I'm not disagreeing with you. Sincerely, Scott.? #105885 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Non-Buddhists have never attained full Jhana truth_aerator Dear KenO >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Alex > >I find you fascinating. Ok lets back to the discussions and you >sure write long emails. > > > >They couldn't attain Jhana, because jhana requires suppresion of 5 hindrances. Without belief in triple gem you cannot suppres 5th hindrance. Without understanding of anatta, you cannot fully suppress the the first two hindrances. > > KO: When there is kusala with panna, there is supression of the 5 hindrances. There is no need to understand anatta to suppress hindrances. You should read AN IV, 123. The Jhanas and Rebirth. > In that sutta the ordinary worldlings have not achieved complete Jhana. One of the factors to achieve full Jhana is to abandon Doubt in triple gem. Ordinary worldlings cannot. Without Doubt in Buddha's teaching and with real Jhana, one is bound to achieve Stream entry and thus cannot fall away into states of woe. In DN29(Pasadika sutta) it is said that 4 Jhanas lead to 4 stages of sainthood (stream entry -> arhatship). Since those worldlings didn't become Aryans, I question their "Jhana". At best it was a diluted version. Nowhere in the suttas does it talk about lokuttara Jhana. Only Jhanas as part of N8P. Since N8P is outside of non-Buddhist range, non-Buddhists cannot do N8P and Jhana that is part of it. With metta, Alex #105886 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:17 pm Subject: Some thoughts on life March, 2010 truth_aerator Hello all, I've done some cut outs from VsM and Suttas and written some of my thoughts on life. This topic is unfortunately not frequently discussed on the web sites. Some may object to this way of considering life. But let us not forget that the Buddha's 1st Noble truth was the Truth of Dukkha, and its origin (2nd NT) is craving. The 3rd NT deals with cessation of suffering by ceasing of craving. Also as MN115 states, one cannot have right view if one doesn't believe that all is Dukkha. " It is impossible, that one come to right view should take any determination as pleasant. " http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/115-bahudhatuk\ a-e.html" Craving for sense pleasures or becoming, is the default behaviour that we have. We don't need to see the beauty in life, Mara does a fine job at that. " VsM XVI, 35 Herein, bodily and mental painful feeling are called intrinsic suffering because of their individual essence, their name, and their painfulness. [Bodily and mental] pleasant feeling are called suffering in change because they are a cause for the arising of pain when they change (M.i,303). Equanimous feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called suffering due to formations because they are oppressed by rise and fall. Such bodily and mental affliction as earache, toothache, fever born of lust, fever born of hate, etc., is called concealed suffering because it can only be known by questioning and because the infliction is not openly evident; it is also called 'unevident suffering'. The affliction produced by the thirty-two tortures,10 etc., is called exposed suffering because it can be known without questioning and because the infliction is openly evident; it is also called 'evident suffering'. VsM XVI, 37 Here the suffering classed as 'rooted in the descent into the womb', and so on, is this: When this being is born in the mother's womb, he is not born inside a blue or red or white lotus, etc., but on the contrary, like a worm in rotting fish, rotting dough, cess-pools, etc., he is born in the belly in a position that is below the receptacle for undigested food (stomach), above the receptacle for digested food (rectum), between the belly lining and the backbone, which is very cramped, quite dark, pervaded by very fetid draughts redolent of various smells of ordure, and exceptionally loathsome.11 And on being reborn there, for ten months he undergoes excessive suffering, being cooked like a pudding in a bag by the heat produced in the mother's womb, and steamed like a dumpling of dough, with no bending, stretching, and so on. So this, firstly, is the suffering rooted in the descent into the womb. VsM XVI, 38. When the mother suddenly stumbles or moves or sits down or gets up or turns round, the extreme suffering he undergoes by being dragged back and forth and jolted up and down, like a kid fallen into the hands of a drunkard, or like a snake's young fallen into the hands of a snake charmer, and also the searing pain that he undergoes, as though he had reappeared in the cold hells, when his mother drinks cold water, and as though deluged by a rain of embers when she swallows hot rice gruel, rice, etc., and as though undergoing the torture of the 'lye-pickling' (see M.i,87), when she swallows anything salty or acidic, etc. This is the suffering rooted in gestation. VsM XVI,39. When the mother has an abortion, the pain that arises in him through the cutting and rending in the place where the pain arises that is not fit to be seen even by friends and intimates and companions This is the suffering rooted in abortion. VsM XVI,40. The pain that arises in him when the mother gives birth, through his being turned upside-down by the kamma-produced winds [forces] and flung into that most fearful passage from the womb, like an infernal chasm, and lugged out through the extremely narrow mouth of the womb, like an elephant through a keyhole, like a denizen of hell being pounded to pulp by colliding rocks This is the suffering rooted in parturition. VsM XVI,41 The pain that arises in him after he is born, and his body, which is as delicate as a tender wound, is taken in the hands, bathed, washed, rubbed with cloths, etc., and which pain is like being pricked with needle points and gashed with razor blades, etc. This is the suffering rooted in venturing outside the mother's womb. [501] VsM XVI,42. The pain that arises afterwards during the course of existence in one who punishes himself, in one who devotes himself to the practice of mortification and austerity according to the vows of the naked ascetics, in one who starves through anger, and in one who hangs himself This is the suffering rooted in self-violence. VsM XVI,43. And that arising in one who undergoes flogging, imprisonment, etc., at the hands of others is the suffering rooted in others' violence. So this birth is the basis for all this suffering. " This is one of the reasons that I like some parts of VsM, with the detail like the above. =============== "One of Ajaan Mun's favorite topics for a Dhamma talk was the theme of practicing the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma ? in other words, in accordance with what the Dhamma demands, not in accordance with what our likes and dislikes demand. As the Dhamma comes to the West this is probably one of the hardest things for Westerners to appreciate. Everywhere you look, the Dhamma is being remade, recast, so that people will like it. Things that people don't like are quietly cut away; and if things that people like are missing, they're added on. And so the creature that comes out is like the old cartoon of a committee designing a bird: The bird looks pretty good to begin with, but then after the committee's done with it, it looks like an ostrich with no legs. It can't walk and it can't fly, but it sells. In this country of ours, where democracy and the marketplace are all-powerful, the question of what sells determines what's Dhamma, even if it can't walk or fly. And who loses out? We lose out. The Dhamma doesn't lose out; it's always what it is. But we like to add a little here, take away a little there, and as a result we end up with nothing but things we already like and already dislike." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/meditations2.html#beyond ===================================== Reality is what it is and it is not what it is not(it is not ultimately beautiful, constant, self). Life itself doesn't start nice and clean. The baby is located in a disgusting, filthy, smelly receptacle surround by excrement, urine, digested and undigested food. It doesn't get much better later, either and at the end it goes to the worms, the empires crumble to dust and memories long forgotten. In some cases some people finish as they have started... The babies soil themselves and so do some sick elderly dying patients who are unable to clean after themselves. Nothing desirable here! Life affirming is not always "pleasure affirming". The life has a dark side most of us choose to ignore and avoid looking at. I don't want this to sound like pessimism, this is just taking a peak at the other side of the coin. Too much optimism isn't always good. If people were more cautious about "great expectations" then many stock market bubbles, real estate bubbles (hey, the value is always going to go up!), and so on, would not happen. Billions would not be lost to Bernie Madoff shark. Disgraced money managers who were caught in his scheme would not suffer the consequences and money of greedy optimistic people would not be flushed down the toilet. The varied sensual pleasures that one can be exposed to, often feel better than subsequent pleasures of the same degree. For example: going from 0$ to a million$ in your bank account feels much better than earning 2 million in a 100 million bank account. But losing 100 millions is more than losing 1 million... The more money one has, the more one will eventually most determinately lose. Also the more money one has, the more relatives appear to take them off you and the more people try to sue you. It is just a matter of time. Like recreational drugs for which the organism develops tolerance and have to be taken in larger and larger quantities just to feel the same high, the same with sensual pleasures. They are addictive and one develops more and more tolerance as one gets them more and more. So one has to constantly get more and more of them for the same feel. Like a salty water that one drinks to relieve the feeling of thirst, causes on to thirst more, the same is with sensual pleasures. But the more sensual desires one follows, the more drawbacks and more potential sufferings are there while the gratification diminishes as the tolerance grows. If life/existence was only good and pleasant, then nobody would ever have serious suicidal ideations, euthanasia would not exist, and people would not commit suicide! But because life can be brutal and unbearable at times (for most beings), (and most of the time it is just dull and boring), people can commit suicide or hurt others. Is existence by itself exciting by default? Do this thought experiment. Suppose you were locked in a totally bland, sound insulated white room (a sensory deprivation tank) with no windows and no way out. You are fed bland food & water, just enough to maintain life but not to excite the taste buds. Very quickly you are going to get bored, and maybe depressed as well. Existence will not be exciting, it will be dull and boring. This shows that ordinary people need events (even slightly negative ones) and sensory things happening to feel 'well' . If life, existence, was good all by itself, then why would it need to be 'spiced up' (so to avoid bone crunching boredom)? Another experiment. Try to lie on the bed for as much as possible in a sitting session. After enough time (it could be 12 or more hours) you will feel discomfort, even from resting! You will be in discomfort and will have to move to relieve the discomfort. Similiar, but on a shorter scale is the experiment about sitting without moving in a chair. Very quickly you will be in discomfort and will have to move to relieve the discomfort. How long can you sit without moving? These things show us that we constantly have to change some sense stimuli or to change the posture or to change something in order to avoid pain and discomfort. The pain is built into the fabric of existence and ordinary people try to relieve it through change of the body, pleasant feelings and extra stimulation. Is existence so desirable if it has to be so spiced & propped up with sense pleasures so as to keep it from being dull, boring and in some cases outright unbearable? Let us look at the Body. What is body's natural state? Is it all rosy and desirable? At a superficial glance, that girl may look very pretty, maybe even the Playboy material. But imagine if she removes all the makeup and all the scents, stops shaving, stops conditioning the hair, stops cutting nails and brushing teeth, stops washing and wiping herself, stops following a proper diet. Very quickly any body will look ugly smelly and so on. This is a state which we try to avoid. We artificially "take care" of the body because otherwise it would become repulsive and not that pretty. Furthermore, while we may eat together, the act of evacuation & urinination is done in private and its sights, smells and sounds are concealed and wiped off. Any one of us have excrement and urine. These things are not beautiful in and of themselves and a person needs to hide before one can expel these things. Just see how much beauty there will be if even a drop of your own bodily contents falls on the food you are about to eat... If your own excrement & urine is disgusting, then nothing to say about someone elses. There is nothing inherently pleasurable about someone's kidneys, skin or flesh. Is there much attraction to slabs of meat in the store? That meat is in all of us covered by skin, and life affirming delusions and stories about how the body is a beautiful thing... The body has to be constantly beautified and kept clean... It contains many things that we try our best to overlook and ignore: "'In this body there are head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, skin-oil, saliva, mucus, fluid in the joints, urine.'" These things are not beautiful in and of themselves! ====================== "The body is so near, yet like an unexplored continent. Large areas in it are a blank. While this is so, greed, lust and craving dwell safely in the jungles of ignorance." ""...no one who searches earnestly throughout the whole of this fathom-long carcass, starting from the soles of the feet upwards, starting from the top of the hair downwards, and starting from the skin all round, ever sees even the minutest atom of pureness in it such as a pearl or a crystal or a beryl or aloes or sandalwood or saffron or camphor or talcum powder, etc; on the contrary, he sees nothing but various very malodorous offensive drab-looking sorts of impurity consisting of head-hair, body-hairs, and the rest." ? M.R., iii, 4, trans. Ven. Nanamoli "Now this body that has material form consists of the four great elements, it is procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice and bread, it has the nature of impermanence, of being worn and rubbed away, of dissolution and disintegration. It must be regarded ? as impermanent ? as (liable to) suffering, as a disease ? as a cancer, as a dart ? as a calamity, as an affliction ? as alien, as a falling to pieces ? as void, as without a self. "When a man regards it thus, he abandons his desire for the body, affection for the body, and his habit of treating the body as a basis for his inferences." ? M. 74, trans. Ven. Nanamoli " ============================ Some may say that this is going to far here. However, considering how much we were brainwashed by the media to view the body as "beautiful", that a very strong antidote is needed. Before one can set up equanimity and total inner peace, lust needs to be removed - not simply 'masked'. The stronger the lust, the stronger the careful unbeauty practice is required. During a period of successful meditations it is very easy to overestimate one's progress and think that lust was pacified. Often it just lies latent, ready to spring up with first good opportunity - so a strong reflection on repulsiveness is required. -Exciting things/events almost always happen only in the movies. The evil that actors do is trying to convince us that life can be exciting and fantastic. But the dull and dreary day to day reality of is no movie for most of us, and for most of the time. There is laundry to do and dishes to clean, and not to mention the disgusting excrements to wipe off oneself in secrecy where nobody can witness the humiliation and shame we all have to endure as living human beings wonderfully designed to be full of excrement and urine after we eat and before we excrete. Even if you are some good looking celebrity, even then the day to day reality is not always all that nice and just like us, the excrement has to be wiped. Even the most famous, successful and beautiful people have troubles that come with life. why did many highly successful people end up overdosing on drugs and dying? Why do many celebrities of today so unhappy despite "having it all"? Maybe because even the stardom is not all the exciting. If life was so good as they say, why do even highly successful (in worldly) sense people are so miserable and in some case even commit suicide? If life is "so good" why do we keep trying to forget the real world when watching the movies, doing drugs, drinking, whatever? Love is just a beautiful word for lustfool hormones and body's natural impulses to procreate its genes. We all love ourselves, and when we say "I love you" it is simply the love of the pleasant feeling that others give to us. The beautiful body of ours and them are not that good either. Body is impermanent subject to aging, sickness and death. Every second it is one step closer to the inevitable of being a lunch for the worms or cremated to ashes. Even the great empires crumble to ashes and dust, nothing to say about this little and insignificant body and whatever belongs to it. Any one of us have excrement and urine. These things are not beautiful in and of themselves and a person needs to hide before one can expell these things. Just see how much beauty there will be if even a drop of your own bodily contents falls on the food you are about to eat... If your own excrement & urine is disgusting, then nothing to say about someone else's. There is nothing inherently pleasurable about someone's kidneys, skin or flesh. Is there much attraction to slabs of meat in the store? That meat is in all of us covered by skin, and life affirming delusions and stories about how the body is a beautiful thing... When there is body then there can be problems with the body. Body can get raped, tortured, mutilated, and sick, it can experience a lot of diverse pain, misery and suffering and be beaten like a punching bag from all sides. It can catch many different kinds of viruses, plagues and so on that could leave a lot of really miserable and painful feelings to the moment of death. Modern viruses are getting more and more hellish. One can get sick with a flesh eating virus, and other scary diseases. Having these miserable and dreadful possibilities possible, is this all that pleasant and happy? It is far better to never be born at all, then to be born. And if one is born, it is better that one dies as soon as possible and never re-arise anywhere for life/existence is a necessary condition for possible misery, hurt, pain, torture, humiliation, dispair and so on. No life = no possibility for misery, no hurt, no pain, no torture, no humiliation, no dispair and so on To be fair, there most certainly are pleasant feelings, but any high has two lows, one on each sides. Any high wave has two troughs. It is structurally impossible to have high without the low. These are two sides of the same miserable coin, miserable because it is impossible to fully control feelings. One cannot will "let me experience ONLY the pleasant feelings and never experience the painful feelings. Let my body always be healthy, beautiful, and stay young forever and ever." These things cannot be controlled and the terrible part is that often we have no say "let me experience only a little bit of pain and lots of pleasure". Very often we suffer, suffer badly, due to natural cause & effect laws. One may have a good party on a friday night after a long hard week at forced labour camp called "work", only to end up with a hangover on saturday morning which one spends at the toilet vomiting the booze from last night's party. Are you like Wilt Chamberlain or Don Juan with the ladies? You better be prepared for the possibility of getting AIDS, syphylis or some other nasty STD. At the very least you will have someone's filthy stinking urine or excrement on your bald headed warrior and a much lighter wallet. Keep a close eye on it and you better have your hand in you wallet. I don't need sex, the existence screws [to use a polite word] and "rapes" me every day! It surely stuffs enough this filthy bag of bones, sinews, flesh and skin with urine and excrement. Shame on life that is so unsatisfactory, or as Buddha has said: "[i]Shame on life here in this world[/i]!" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.3.02.irel.html ================================================== [Magandiya offers his daughter to the Buddha, who replies:] On seeing [the daughters of Mara] ? Discontent, Craving, & Passion ? there wasn't even the desire for sex. [b]So what would I want with this, filled with urine & excrement? I wouldn't want to touch it even with my foot. [/b] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.09.than.html ================= In Girimananda Sutta the Buddha didn't teach candles & crystals 21st century new age teachings. He taught the DHAMMA with meditations like ======================== " [3] "And what is the perception of unattractiveness? There is the case where a monk ponders this very body ? from the soles of the feet on up, from the crown of the head on down, surrounded by skin, filled with all sorts of unclean things: 'There is in this body: hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, muscle, tendons, bones, bone marrow, spleen, heart, liver, membranes, kidneys, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, gorge, feces, gall, phlegm, lymph, blood, sweat, fat, tears, oil, saliva, mucus, oil in the joints, urine.' [4] "And what is the perception of drawbacks? There is the case where a monk ?having gone to the wilderness, to the foot of a tree, or to an empty dwelling ?reflects thus: 'This body has many pains, many drawbacks. In this body many kinds of disease arise, such as: seeing-diseases, hearing-diseases,nose-diseases, tongue-diseases, body-diseases, head-diseases, ear-diseases,mouth-diseases, teeth-diseases, cough, asthma, catarrh, fever, aging,stomach-ache, fainting, dysentery, grippe, cholera, leprosy, boils, ringworm, tuberculosis, epilepsy, skin-disease, itch, scab, psoriasis, scabies, jaundice,diabetes, hemorrhoids, fistulas, ulcers; diseases arising from bile, from phlegm, from the wind-property, from combinations of bodily humors, from changes in the weather, from uneven care of the body, from attacks, from the result of kamma; cold, heat, hunger, thirst, defecation, urination.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.than.html ====================== We are like convicts on a death row, we will be executed no matter what happens. It is just the matter of time when the executioner called "Time" will execute us. What we can do is to make sure that this execution is final (Arhatship). "Execution" by the executioner called Impermanence & Death, only one more time, please! No more. The Buddha's teaching is the final and total Euthanasia of all suffering that we can believe in. Yes we can make all the suffering cease by cessation, relinquishment and extinction of all craving and the will to be/not-to-be. I believe that the essence of the way is the cessation of craving, and one of the requirements is to see exactly why craving is bad and to really go against the grain of craving by analyzing our reality. With best wishes, Alex #105887 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:06 pm Subject: Why not Hedonism? bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Why not indulge in Hedonism? Change! Venerable Sariputta once pointed out the danger of delight: If, friends, one is not freed of lust, desire, attraction, thirst, passion and craving for the manifold various forms, feelings, experiences, constructions and types of consciousness, then with the inevitable change in and alteration of these forms, feelings, experiences, constructions and types of consciousness, one invariably experiences disappointment, dissatisfaction, discontent, frustration, sorrow, pain and despair...!!! One who lives immersed in these derivatives of greed, therefore suffers in this very life from the continual fever of wanting, needing, longing, frustration and urge... Moreover, when dying and this body is breaking up, the greedy one can expect a bad destination!!! This is the immanent danger and side-effect of desire and craving... If, however, one is freed of all lust, desire, attraction, thirst, passion and craving for the manifold various forms, feelings, experiences, constructions and types of consciousness, then with the inevitable change in and alteration of these, one does not experience any disappointment, dissatisfaction, discontent, pain, frustration, sorrow, nor any despair... Not living immersed in these derivatives of greed, one does therefore not suffer from any hot fever of neither wanting, nor longing, nor any urge. Moreover, when dying and this body is breaking up, such cooled and calmed one can expect a good destination!!! This is the quite blissful advantage and assured benefit of removal of desire and craving here and now... Hunting pleasure produces delayed and therefore hidden pain... Relinquishing desire for pleasure gives ease now and bliss later... Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! http://What-Buddha-Said.net Why not Hedonism? #105888 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:20 am Subject: Re: Some thoughts on life March, 2010 kenhowardau Hi Alex, ---------- A: > I've done some cut outs from VsM and Suttas and written some of my thoughts on life. This topic is unfortunately not frequently discussed on the web sites. ----------- Good idea, Alex, thanks for giving us some more material for discussion. It's hard to tell where the cut outs end and your thoughts begin. In any case, I hope you won't mind if I am a bit critical. ------------------------ A: > Some may object to this way of considering life. But let us not forget that the Buddha's 1st Noble truth was the Truth of Dukkha, " It is impossible, that one come to right view should take any determination as pleasant. " ------------------------- So far so good! (Although I haven't noticed the word "determination" in this context before. I wonder which Pali word is a translation of.) ------------------- A: > Craving for sense pleasures or becoming, is the default behaviour that we have. We don't need to see the beauty in life, Mara does a fine job at that. ------------------- Not sure I follow you there. ----------------------------- A: > " VsM XVI, 35 Herein, bodily and mental painful feeling are called intrinsic suffering because <. . .> VsM XVI,43. And that arising in one who undergoes flogging, imprisonment, etc., at the hands of others is the suffering rooted in others' violence. So this birth is the basis for all this suffering. " This is one of the reasons that I like some parts of VsM, with the detail like the above. ------------------- But didn't we already know about these kinds of suffering before we even heard the Dhamma? I think you will find the point the Vism. is making has not yet been reached. --------------------------- A: > "One of Ajaan Mun's favorite topics for a Dhamma talk was the theme of practicing the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma ? in other words, in accordance with what the Dhamma demands, not in accordance with what our likes and dislikes demand. As the Dhamma comes to the West this is probably one of the hardest things for Westerners to appreciate. ---------------------------- Never mind the Westerners, distortions of the Dhamma are going on everywhere. I recently heard a radio interview in which a former monk explained that every monastery in Burma taught a different Dhamma. The monastery he was ordained in taught "colours". Apparently, everything has its own unique colour and the purpose of Buddhist meditation was to see those colours . . . -------------- A: > Reality is what it is and it is not what it is not(it is not ultimately beautiful, constant, self). Life itself doesn't start nice and clean. The baby is located in a disgusting, --------------- Yes, but so what? This is common knowledge, not Dhamma. And what about those reputed deva realms in which a person is reborn spontaneously? No filth and mess involved there! Is that kind of birth any less dukkha? ---------------------- <. . .> But losing 100 millions is more than losing 1 million... The more money one has, the more one will eventually most determinately lose. ----------------- Give me 100 million and I will cry all the way to the bank. :-) ---------------------- Also the more money one has, the more relatives appear to take them off you and the more people try to sue you. It is just a matter of time. ---------------------- Yes, yes, but where is all this leading? Tell us something we don't already know. ----------------------- > ----------------------- Come on, get to the point! --------------------------------- > "Now this body that has material form consists of the four great elements, it is procreated by a mother and father, and built up out of boiled rice and bread, it has the nature of impermanence, of being worn and rubbed away, of dissolution and disintegration. It must be regarded ? as impermanent ? as (liable to) suffering, as a disease ? as a cancer, as a dart ? as a calamity, as an affliction ? as alien, as a falling to pieces ? as void, as without a self. "When a man regards it thus, he abandons his desire for the body, affection for the body, and his habit of treating the body as a basis for his inferences." ? M. 74, trans. Ven. Nanamoli " ============================ Some may say that this is going to far here. However, considering how much we were brainwashed by the media to view the body as beautiful", that a very strong antidote is needed. --------------------------- I think you will find the Vism. at this stage has still not got to the point. --------------------------------------- > Before one can set up equanimity and total inner peace, lust needs to be removed - not simply 'masked'. The stronger the lust, the stronger the careful unbeauty practice is required. --------------------------------------- No, the Vism is not telling us that at all. ------------------------ > During a period of successful meditations it is very easy to overestimate one's progress and think that lust was pacified. ------------------------- The Vism is not telling us to meditate on the human body. Wait until it gets to rupa, the conditioned dhamma. ------------------------------- > Often it just lies latent, ready to spring up with first good opportunity - so a strong reflection on repulsiveness is required. -Exciting things/events almost always happen only in the movies. The evil that <. . .> --------------------------------- Snip all of this; it's not worth hearing. ------------------- > In Girimananda Sutta the Buddha didn't teach candles & crystals 21st century new age teachings. He taught the DHAMMA with meditations like ======================== " [3] "And what is the perception of unattractiveness? There is the case where a monk ponders this very body ? from the soles of the feet on up, ------------------ Don't sell the texts short. They are telling us that the unattractiveness ordinary people can see in unattractive concepts can also be seen by a monk, but the monk sees it in *absolute realities*. That's the Dhamma! ---------------------------------- > We are like convicts on a death row, we will be executed no matter what happens. It is just the matter of time when the executioner called "Time" will execute us. What we can do is to make sure that this execution is final (Arhatship). "Execution" by the executioner called Impermanence & Death, only one more time, please! No more. The Buddha's teaching is the final and total Euthanasia of all suffering that we can believe in. Yes we can make all the suffering cease by cessation, relinquishment and extinction of all craving and the will to be/not-to-be. I believe that the essence of the way is the cessation of craving,and one of the requirements is to see exactly why craving is bad and to really go against the grain of craving by analyzing our reality. With best wishes, ---------------------- Good luck with it, Alex. I hope you will eventually agree that 'the way out' begins and ends in right understanding of the present moment. Ken H #105889 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:39 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" szmicio Dear pt, Thank you very much for those links, I will read it, but now I dont have spare time to do this. But I hope this would be helpful to me. sorry for my slow answer. > > L: I think I could not understand number 2. > > > > 2. pa.tikkuulasa~n~naapatiruupataaya byaapaado va~ncetiiti yujjati. > > Byaapaado (dosa) could be mistaken for pa.tikkuulasa~n~naa (ugly or disgusting) > > > > Usually dosa IS disgusting and bad. What's the meaning? > > KenH already gave a good explanation. This point is also discussed in: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3543 > > In fact, all the 38 items in the list are also discussed in: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3544 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3545 > > These are the first three posts from the UP topic connie told us about, it's a very good read. > By the way, I've posted a message yesterday about this, but I think at the time I was logged into a different account at work, so I apologise if it went to your private mailbox instead of going to the list. L: OK pt, this is OK. I dont even notice you send it to my private account. Best wishes Lukas #105890 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:44 am Subject: Re: Method in VsM szmicio Dear Alex, > Dear Lukas, all, > > Let me be clear again. I am all for right understanding. I do not believe that person can achieve anything superhuman without right understanding. L: When we want to achive something, this can be conceit. > The difference is that I believe that right understanding is NOT simply holding a set of right views in mind. If it doesn't lead to right actions, etc - it is not *right* understanding. L: NO one can hold a set o right views in mind ;> > It is also not an excuse to avoid doing anything, and waiting for "the knight in shining armor riding on a white horse" coming to save you. L: But if anyone avoids doing anything, than it's conditioned now. This is not made by Self, this is conditioned. anatta, not made by Self. > Belief in inefficiency of action is the view of Ajivikas with sad results. See end of MN71. > > I've repeatedly stated that all things are conditioned, all things are non-self. Things happen do to causes and conditions and not due to any non-existing Self as a controller. A moral person with right understanding, due to corresponding conditions will do right actions and appropriate effects will follow. > > To avoid doing good actions such as restraining akusala tendencies (due to "NO CONTROL! NO CONTROL!"), is akusala. L: Yes, it is. Best wishes Lukas #105891 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:59 am Subject: Abhidhamma series, no 1. nilovg Daer friends, The moderator of the Pali list asked me to write a survey of the Abhidhamma. I shall try to do so and make use of and quote from my former writings about this subject. Sarah asked me to publish this also here on dsg. ---------- Intro: The Buddha taught conventional truth, sammutti sacca, and ultimate truth, paramattha sacca. The Commentary to M.N.5, No Blemishes, states about these two ways of teaching: -------- Pali: -------------- In the Suttanta we find the teaching in conventional way, but also the teaching by way of ultimate realities. When the Buddha spoke in the suttas about situations and people, he pointed to the truth of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. He knew the dispositions of different beings and which kind of teaching was most suitable for them. The teaching of the Abhidhamma is mainly by way of ultimate realities, paramattha dhammas. In order to have understanding of the Abhidhamma it is essential to know the difference between ultimate realities, paramattha dhammas and concepts, pa~n~natti, such as a person or a tree. ******* Nina. #105892 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, part 1 --- On Thu, 11/3/10, Ken O wrote: >KO:? I went to check actually the proximate cause for wisdom?is concentration or 4 noble truth according to the Perfections Chapter 4 and A Treatise of Paramis.?? ... S: Yes, the accompanying samma samadhi. It and samma ditthi are given as proximate condition for each other. Even though samma ditthi is "the forerunner", they condition each other and the other accompanying cetasikas by sahajata paccaya. This doesn't necessarily depend on prior jhana. ... >Because you are only thinking of vipassana method, your conclusion is base on they are both proximate condition for each other.? ... S: I wasn't thinking of any "method"! I thought I was following your lead in the discussion. .... >Firstly it is rather not correct even in vipassana method, because during enlightment, panna is abhi cetasika, it is also?the indriya and hetu paccaya, so it is panna that conditions all other factors to be right and not for each other even though they arise together.? ? ... Vism. XIV, 7 7 "'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v.3) it's proximate cause is concentration." 7." 'samaahito yathaabhuuta.m jaanaati passatii''ti (A. 3.10.2) vacanato pana samaadhi tassaa pada.t.thaana.m." I wrote before on this topic: >S:"Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana.m) means proximate cause. Thus wherever we speak of characteristics, etc, their mutual difference should be understood in this wise." Atthasalini transl PTS p84 "In this post, the Netti reference (167)p.49 also mentions concentration as the footing (pada.t.thaana) for wisdom but ends by saying all kinds of condition are a 'footing'." " Concentration is the footing for knowing and seeing how(things) are. Knowing and seeing how (things) are is the footing for dispassion. Dispassion is the footing for fading of lust. Fading of lust is the footing for deliverance. Deliverance is the footing for knowing and seeing of deliverance. In this way all kinds of general-support, all kinds of conditions, are a footing."< ***** K:>Secondly,?mundane jhanas could be used as a basis to insight, it is said in the suttas and Visud.?? ... S: True, though instead of saying "mundane jhanas could be used as a basis..." which suggests Someone can do/use something, better to say that mundane jhanas may be a condition for insight. In fact, any reality can be a condition, a proximate cause for insight by becoming the object for that insight. Insight can know/penetrate any reality -- it doesn't matter in the least whether that reality is visible object, lobha or jhana. Any reality at all, without any selection, is then the proximate condition. ... >IMHO,? the promixate cause for?concentration? is there refering to jhanas as samantha bhavana as main support for panna that lead to enlightement whle 4NT refers to vipassana as the main support for panna that leads to enlightment, .... S: With regard to the reference you give from the Perfections, without checking the context, if it's given as a general proximate condition, then I believe it is the accompanying concentration that is being referred to. (I checked this point with KS once before.) At the vipassana nanas and enlightenment, samadhi and vipassana are "yoked" together. The (right) concentration then becomes apparent. At enlightenment, the samadhi is equivalent to jhana in strength. The 4NT are fully realised. You are also right that the concentration of prior jhana can also be considered as a proximate condition for enlightenment. This would be by the jhana citta or any of the factors being an object of the cittas immediately before enlightenment and the concentration of the jhana would be accumulated, conditioning the following citta. As we know, there are many support conditions for any cittas to arise, so I appreciate your point. Again, as the Netti says: "In this way all kinds of general-support, all kinds of conditions, are a footing." ... Metta Sarah ======== #105893 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some thoughts on life March, 2010 nilovg Dear Alex, Thanks for the long post, you took a lot of trouble. I would prefer this in smaller sections, then it is easier to digest for the readers. ----------- A: > Before one can set up equanimity and total inner > peace, lust needs to be removed - not simply 'masked'. The stronger > the lust, the stronger the careful unbeauty practice is required. -------- N: Also in samatha pa~n~naa is essential. The disadvantages of clinging to sense objects should be seen, but only pa~n~naa can see it, no one else, as I just heard on a recording. When there is seeing there is, very shortly after seeing, clinging to what is seen, even before it is known what something is. The Abhidhamma can help us here. Also in the eyedoor process there are javanacittas after seeing has fallen away, and these are very often akusala cittas with clinging. Just now, while our eyes are open there is clinging already, and cittas arise and fall away so fast that we do not notice it. That is why wise people, also before the Buddha's time, developed samatha with different meditation subjects, such as parts of the body. But there must be right understanding of the present citta which may be kusala citta or akusala citta. Nina. #105894 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 jonoabb Hi KenO (105851) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > > Dear Jon > > I mean guidance of a method given by from teacher. > =============== J: You are saying, I think, that Dispeller is reporting/describing the method used by the teachers of the time. Fair enough. But that being the case, Dispeller is not itself giving a method in a manner that is capable of being followed by a student, since a teacher is still needed to evaluate the student's reported experiences and respond with the appropriate guidance. > =============== for eg 32 parts as in Visud, recite not too fast or too slow. > =============== J: Yes, but 'not too fast or too slow' doesn't really tell the reader what the appropriate speed of recitation is (it merely indicates that speed is a relevant factor). Jon #105895 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:25 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 jonoabb Hi Alex (105854) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > ... > When there is akusala, then one is no longer properly meditating. > =============== J: During a meditation 'practice', there is the same focus, effort and object for the akusala moments as during the perceived kusala moments. Does this not make those akusala moments wrong practice? In any event, how are the kusala moments within a meditation practice known by the practitioner from the akusala ones (as and when they occur)? > =============== > >J: I think it's meant to be part of a general description rather >than an instruction. A recitation is not samatha bhavana unless it >is accompanied by panna, and the text does not explain how a >recitation is to be done so that it is accompanied by panna. > > Yes, recitation whether vocal or mental is part of a bigger set of instructions. However if you pick and choose the ingridients, you won't be able to bake a cake. Sometimes "picking and choosing" what to do and what not to do, is merely the work of kilesas who do not want to do something that will destroy them. Maybe they are so smart that they use excuses like "you're too good to do this kindergarden practice. Do something more advanced. Or, don't do too much, remember that doing meditation is just sakkayaditthi." > =============== J: Let's keep the discussion to the meaning of the Suttas and texts. There is no need to bring in different individuals' practice (yours or mine) (again!). To my understanding of the texts, a recitation cannot be not samatha bhavana unless it is accompanied by panna. Do you see it differently? Jon #105896 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 sarahprocter... part 2 Dear Ken O, I think you raise some important points with regard to "formal practice" and "instructions" which are helpful for all of us to consider further. Unless we are sotapannas, Atta-view is bound to arise in gross or subtle ways and only panna will know of course. >>S:Of course, it's not a matter of choice as to what kind of kusala (or akusala) arises and not, we'd say, a matter of 'doing' or 'not doing', of 'sticking to vipassana' or 'not sticking to anything'. It's a matter of just understanding the presently appearing dhammas, regardless of whether they are seeing, visible object or even frustration now! It all comes back to this moment every time. >KO: I am not concern about words doing or not doing, or choice or no choice because it is DSG or non-DSG percularity about such wordings as though they are some kind of holy grail. Dhamma dont bother about such words. .... S: The point is that several of us (and also KS in KK) have picked up on your frequent reference to "method", "doing", "not doing", "choice", "instructions' and so on, especiatlly in the context of samatha bhavana because our words reflect our ideas and as KS said to you a few times, such words all suggest an Atta behind the beliefs. For example, you say "it is just instructions for those with the accumulations and panna. Just like some prefer seating and some prefer studying dhamma like Ven Kassapa and Ven Ananda in Buddha's time." The difference is that Ven Kassapa and Ven Ananda had no ideas about "following a method", of "doing samatha", or of "following special instructions" when living in the forest or amongst a community. They just followed their natural tendencies, fully confident that satipatthana at this moment doesn't depend on any particular situation. Many times KS asked you what calm is at the present moment, what understanding is at the present moment. As you say (#105693), you replied many times that there is no calm without panna and that all jhanas have panna accompaning them. You also say that "one develops panna before samatha or vipassana" and that you don't doubt this or "instructions witten on samatha objects". Again, with respect, I think you're missing the point she was making and we've all been making, starting with Ken H. Now, if there is wise reflection on the Dhamma, there is panna and the citta is calm. This is samatha bhavana and it may develop, depending on conditions. The same applies to metta or reflection on death or on other subjects of samatha. If, however, we reflect on the Dhamma or death or metta in order to develop samatha or with an idea of practice or method, it's lobha at work, atta-view at work, no calm at all, no understanding at all. This is just the beginning of samatha bhavana at this moment if there is understanding. It's not a question of being interested in "doing samatha" or "not doing samatha" as you suggest. It's not a matter of sometime, at a later stage in the development, starting to recite texts, following special methods or instructions (if there are accumulations for such) in order to have more calm and understanding. If it's lobha now that follows a method, it's lobha later that follows a method. And before you ask for more texts again, the Teachings are all at this moment. Calm, understanding, frustration, seeing, visible object are at this moment. Just as dhammas are anatta now, so they have always been and will continue to be anatta. The Teachings are not in the book, as KS kept saying and which we all agree with here. Another point you keep repeating is that "not everyone takes up a meditation subject, those who are on vipassana method or in the dry insighters don't take up a meditation subject". You also say that you have no interest in such for yourself, but you still consider these are methods or formal practices. In spite of all your comments about anatta, accumulations, panna first and so on, this all sounds like Self doing something, making choices, taking up meditation subjects and so on. It doesn't make sense to me. At this moment, when we're friendly and helpful to those with whom we're having discussions, there is metta. Metta can be known as the opposite of all that frustration and annoyance. At moments of metta, the citta is calm. Such metta, such calm develops through understanding its characteristic and through the accumulation for seeing the value of friendliness at this very moment. This is the beginning of samatha bhavana. No one chooses to take up a subject or not. No one chooses to be a "Dry Insighter" or not. No one chooses to follow instructions to develop metta. Indeed the understanding of metta and its development are not a set of instructions or a method or a "formal meditation" in any form, however we/you read the Vism. and other commentaries. Finally, in some of Alex's messages he gives lists and lists of quotes from texts (both about samatha and vipassana bhavana), all (to him) suggesting lists of instructions, methods and formal practices. I don't see how you can agree with him about the recitations and ones under the concentration section of the Vism as referring to lists of instructions and methods and not agree with him about those clearly referring to satipatthana as being methods/instructions. After all, the words in English, the use of 'shoulds' and references to 'forest', for example, are very similar. Either there's an Atta at this moment or there isn't! And if the reality now is thinking with frustration, that's the reality to be known - without a trying or method :-) Metta Sarah p.s Happy to see that Scott has taken up the baton, so I may leave the thread here. ====== #105897 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:26 am Subject: Re: This site jonoabb Hi Kevin Good to see you back! (105869) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > Jon and Sarah, do you guys maintain and moderate this group/site? > > This site is absolutely amazing. Reading through some old posts here there > is so much wisdom and good Dhamma discussion here. What a great service to the Dhamma. > =============== J: Thanks for these comments. In addition to Sarah and me, there are a number of others who help behind the scenes, plus of course those who contribute such good posts to the list. It's a team effort ;-)) Glad you are finding the discussions useful. Enjoy your browsing through the old posts! Jon #105898 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] This site sarahprocter... Dear Kevin (and pt), Greatly appreciating your helpful posts and attempts to put Alex on the right track:-)) (j/k, Alex!) --- On Thu, 11/3/10, Kevin Farrell wrote: >Jon and Sarah, do you guys maintain and moderate this group/site? ... S: Yes, we do, with lots of assistance from all our friends here, both on-list with all the messages and also behind the scenes. Actually, unlike the early days/years, it really maintains and moderates itself, so we have very little to do. ... >This site is absolutely amazing. Reading through some old posts here there is so much wisdom and good Dhamma discussion here. What a great service to the Dhamma. ... S: Again, thanks to all the contributors and different viewpoints too. It's very kind of you to comment, Kevin. I remember that you were pretty tech-savvy, so in case you're not aware, you can download all archived messages for easy reading/scrolling at: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org or http://www.wuala.com/nichicon (The archives are thanks to the dedicated work of Connie who we can never thank enough). Also, if you haven't come across it, you may like to take a look at "Useful Posts" in the DSG files section. [Work is being undertaken to make this easier to scroll through.] And for reading through long threads (someone mentioned 400 or so) posts in a thread), by using the 'expand', it's easy to scroll through them all. pt will come to the rescue and repeat clearer instructions if anyone wishes. Some like long threads and others prefer new threads started more often - Poster's Choice:-). Metta Sarah ======= #105899 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >S: Yes, the accompanying samma samadhi. It and samma ditthi are given as proximate condition for each other. Even though samma ditthi is "the forerunner", they condition each other and the other accompanying cetasikas by sahajata paccaya. This Defdoesn't necessarily depend on prior jhana. KO:? that depends whether jhanas is a basis or not.? It is right for samantha bhavana but not vipassana bhavana which promixate cause is 4NT.? All cetasikas condition each other by sahajata?so does citta with cetasikas, why concentration is single out and not others?because of jhanas?is a basis.? >... >Vism. XIV, 7 > >7 "'One who is concentrated knows and sees correctly' (A.v.3) it's >proximate cause is concentration. > >7." 'samaahito yathaabhuuta. m jaanaati passatii''ti (A. 3.10.2) >vacanato pana samaadhi tassaa pada.t.thaana. m." > KO:? This is the description of supramundane jhanas so proximate cause is concentration, and?is not surprising as jhanas are already attain. >I wrote before on this topic: > >>S:"Immediate occasion (pada.t.thaana. m) means proximate cause. Thus >wherever we speak of characteristics, etc, their mutual difference should >be understood in this wise." Atthasalini transl PTS p84 > >"In this post, the Netti reference (167)p.49 also mentions concentration as >the footing (pada.t.thaana) for wisdom but ends by saying all kinds of >condition are a 'footing'." > >" Concentration is the footing for knowing and seeing how(things) are. >Knowing and seeing how (things) are is the footing for dispassion. >Dispassion is the footing for fading of lust. Fading of lust is the >footing for deliverance. Deliverance is the footing for knowing >and seeing of deliverance. > >In this way all kinds of general-support, all kinds of conditions, are a >footing."< >***** KO:? yes all kinds of contions are a footing but which is the one that is most impt just like panna is the most impt footing for the eradication of kilesa.?? Great compassion or paramis for Buddhahood, >S: True, though instead of saying "mundane jhanas could be used as a basis..." which suggests Someone can do/use something, better to say that mundane jhanas may be a condition for insight. In fact, any reality can be a condition, a proximate cause for insight by becoming the object for that insight. Insight can know/penetrate any reality -- it doesn't matter in the least whether that reality is visible object, lobha or jhana. Any reality at all, without any selection, is then the proximate condition. KO:?? The description is clear by its meaning, we cannot use?your?rationalisation?as a basis.? All cetasikas?have their own?proximate cause so we should not generalise in that sense, we have to be precise.? If the proximate is definited as concentraton and 4NT we will have to follow it. Cheers Ken O #105900 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:19 pm Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 truth_aerator Hello Jon, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (105854) > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > ... > > When there is akusala, then one is no longer properly meditating. > > =============== > > J: During a meditation 'practice', there is the same focus, effort >and object for the akusala moments as during the perceived kusala >moments. You are right. A person can be mindful of the wrong thing (ex: sniper being mindful and aware of what is happening so as to hit the targer). Knowledge can be misused as well. >Does this not make those akusala moments wrong practice? Akusala moments are wrong. Sure. > In any event, how are the kusala moments within a meditation >practice known by the practitioner from the akusala ones (as and >when they occur)? They are known with understanding. Greed, anger & delusion are bad. Qualities such as nibbida, viraga, upasama, alobha, adosa, amoha are good. > To my understanding of the texts, a recitation cannot be not >samatha bhavana unless it is accompanied by panna. Do you see it >differently? > > Jon All that one do, is better be done with panna. Sure. I just don't believe in Noble 1fold path. With metta, Alex #105901 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 truth_aerator Dear Sarah, KenO, all, >sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote: > Dear Ken O, >I think you raise some important points with regard to "formal >practice" and "instructions" which are helpful for all of us to >consider further. One can do anything, even listening to KS with Self View. One can walk, lie, stand or sit with Self View. WHen one eats or drinks it can be done with self view. Does this mean that eating and drinking is prohibited (it can be done with self view!) ? No. Just do it with wisdom. Same with meditation. The heart of Dhamma is the 4NT. The 2nd NT says that origin of Dukkha is craving. 3NT states that cessation of suffering is when craving ceases. Properly done meditation helps to makes craving cease. In fact the 4th NT includes samma-samadhi within it. Any thing, be it meditation or listening to KS, can be done with wrong views. It is not the activity itself but the extraneous Self View attached to it. Self View belongs to clinging (upadana). Proximate cause of clinging is craving... Meditations such as Asubha, 32 bodyparts, etc, cut down on craving and Self, I, me, mine beliefs. Buddha gave instructions, not the menu. Reading the menu will not quench one's thirst or hunger. Eating will. IMHO. With metta, Alex #105902 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 ashkenn2k Dear Sarah >I think you raise some important points with regard to "formal practice" and "instructions" which are helpful for all of us to consider further. Unless we are sotapannas, Atta-view is bound to arise in gross or subtle ways and only panna will know of course. >.... >S: The point is that several of us (and also KS in KK) have picked up on your frequent reference to "method", "doing", "not doing", "choice", "instructions' and so on, especiatlly in the context of samatha bhavana because our words reflect our ideas and as KS said to you a few times, such words all suggest an Atta behind the beliefs. KO:? The ancients said that too, so do they have atta when they used the word I or me or?do this or do that.? It is a matter of intepretation, it does not bother me at all.??When I say stick to vipassana, why should there be a self, any reason to fear to use such words? Dosa arise???Understanding reality does not?mean I should not say such words, if that is the case then it is difficult to talk about dhamma and probably a subtle clinging to wrong practise?also, not to use such words. >For example, you say "it is just instructions for those with the accumulations and panna. Just like some prefer seating and some prefer studying dhamma like Ven Kassapa and Ven Ananda in Buddha's time." > >The difference is that Ven Kassapa and Ven Ananda had no ideas about "following a method", of "doing samatha", or of "following special instructions" when living in the forest or amongst a community. They just followed their natural tendencies, fully confident that satipatthana at this moment doesn't depend on any particular situation. KO:? that is your interpretation.?Visud does not say that. >Many times KS asked you what calm is at the present moment, what understanding is at the present moment. As you say (#105693), you replied many times that there is no calm without panna and that all jhanas have panna accompaning them. You also say that "one develops panna before samatha or vipassana" and that you don't doubt this or "instructions witten on samatha objects". Again, with respect, I think you're missing the point she was making and we've all been making, starting with Ken H. > KO:??If there is?no panna, there is?no development of any samantha or vipassana. ?I am not missing the point, i felt DSG is the one denying the existence of instructions writing clearly in Visud and Dispeller of Delusion.? If it is a matter of intepretation, the commentaries would have written it clearly. >Now, if there is wise reflection on the Dhamma, there is panna and the citta is calm. This is samatha bhavana and it may develop, depending on conditions. The same applies to metta or reflection on death or on other subjects of samatha. If, however, we reflect on the Dhamma or death or metta in order to develop samatha or with an idea of practice or method, it's lobha at work, atta-view at work, no calm at all, no understanding at all. >This is just the beginning of samatha bhavana at this moment if there is understanding. It's not a question of being interested in "doing samatha" or "not doing samatha" as you suggest. It's not a matter of sometime, at a later stage in the development, starting to recite texts, following special methods or instructions (if there are accumulations for such) in order to have more calm and understanding. If it's lobha now that follows a method, it's lobha later that follows a method. > >And before you ask for more texts again, the Teachings are all at this moment. Calm, understanding, frustration, seeing, visible object are at this moment. Just as dhammas are anatta now, so they have always been and will continue to be anatta. The Teachings are not in the book, as KS kept saying and which we all agree with here. KO:? No you must give me the text because the text has been obvious on a method.? If it is not a method, the ancient will have rebuke it.??KS understanding comes from reading the book first. >Another point you keep repeating is that "not everyone takes up a meditation subject, those who are on vipassana method or in the dry insighters don't take up a meditation subject". You also say that you have no interest in such for yourself, but you still consider these are methods or formal practices. > >In spite of all your comments about anatta, accumulations, panna first and so on, this all sounds like Self doing something, making choices, taking up meditation subjects and so on. It doesn't make sense to me. > >At this moment, when we're friendly and helpful to those with whom we're having discussions, there is metta. Metta can be known as the opposite of all that frustration and annoyance. At moments of metta, the citta is calm. Such metta, such calm develops through understanding its characteristic and through the accumulation for seeing the value of friendliness at this very moment. This is the beginning of samatha bhavana. No one chooses to take up a subject or not. No one chooses to be a "Dry Insighter" or not. No one chooses to follow instructions to develop metta. Indeed the understanding of metta and its development are not a set of instructions or a method or a "formal meditation" in any form, however we/you read the Vism. and other commentaries. > >Finally, in some of Alex's messages he gives lists and lists of quotes from texts (both about samatha and vipassana bhavana), all (to him) suggesting lists of instructions, methods and formal practices. I don't see how you can agree with him about the recitations and ones under the concentration section of the Vism as referring to lists of instructions and methods and not agree with him about those clearly referring to satipatthana as being methods/instruction s. After all, the words in English, the use of 'shoulds' and references to 'forest', for example, are very similar. > >Either there's an Atta at this moment or there isn't! > >And if the reality now is thinking with frustration, that's the reality to be known - without a trying or method :-) > KO:?? That does not mean one with the right panna follow what is describe in Visud is wrong, unless you could give me a text to disprove it.??There is?dry insightors and those Arahants with jhana, that depends on accumulations so does those who follow 32 parts.?????There is nothing fustrating about reality, it is just dhammas.? thanks Ken O #105903 From: Ken O Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Jon > >J: You are saying, I think, that Dispeller is reporting/describin g the method used by the teachers of the time. > >Fair enough. But that being the case, Dispeller is not itself giving a method in a manner that is capable of being followed by a student, since a teacher is still needed to evaluate the student's reported experiences and respond with the appropriate guidance. KO:? What you said already describe a method :-) > >J: Yes, but 'not too fast or too slow' doesn't really tell the reader what the appropriate speed of recitation is (it merely indicates that speed is a relevant factor). KO:? Yes a relative but an important instructions Ken O #105904 From: "Mike" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 mikenz66 Dear Sarah, Ken, etc, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Either there's an Atta at this moment or there isn't! > > And if the reality now is thinking with frustration, that's the reality to be known - without a trying or method :-) Mike: I'm sorry, but (to repeat what has been stated on this board hundreds of times) the way you keep expressing how anyone who diagrees with the KS analysis is mired in atta is simply logically unconvincing, as Ken and others keep pointing out. Mike: Take a look at what you've written above. It practically shouts: "*I* have the correct way of approaching Dhamma. The rest of *YOU* are mistaken." Mike: You well may be right, but I've yet to see the KS school explain convincingly why their opinions, choices, and actions are somehow immune from the "creation of self" problem that we all face and are therefore "not a method". Mike: However, I still think that the difference between the KS school and "the other reasonably sensible Buddhist teachers" keeps getting blown out of all proportion in some of these discussions. We all face the same difficult problems of understanding the Dhamma Metta Mike #105905 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:16 pm Subject: Alleviating Anger! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Anger, Irritation, and Stubborn Contrariety! Evil and ill-will is the mental hindrance, which is resisting against and opposing phenomena. It can be quite violent when manifesting as quarrels, conflict, hate, hostility and war. Aversion instantly destroys all harmony and peace and thus any potential for happiness. It can only be cured by meditation on the four infinitely divine states (Brahma-viharas ). First priority: Noticing evil Ill-Will arise -in itself- makes it fade away: The Buddha said: When ill-will is present in him then he understands: "There is ill-will in me now" and when ill-will is absent, he also notices: "There is no ill-will in me now". He understands how unarisen ill-will arises. He understands how to leave behind any arisen ill-will, and he understands how left ill-will will not ever arise again in the future. MN 10 What is the feeding cause that makes ill-will arise? There are displeasing and repulsive features and aspects of any object, frequently giving irrational & unwise attention to them, this is the feeding cause of the arising of unarisen ill-will, and the feeding cause of the very increase and expansion of ill-will that already has arisen. SN 46:51 The 3 paranoid thoughts that induces resentment: 1: He or she has done, is doing or will in the future do me some wrong! 2: He or she has done, is doing or will do those I like some wrong! 3: He or she has done, is doing or will do those I dislike some good! What is the starving cause that makes ill-will cease? There is the release of mind through Universal Good-Will and Friendliness, frequently giving rational and wise attention to this is the starving cause of the non-arising of unarisen ill-will, and the starving cause of decrease and shrinking of ill-will that already has arisen. SN 46:51 Which medicine cures ill-will, so that it does not re-arise ever again? One should cultivate the meditation on Universal Friendliness (Mett a)! For the meditation on universal friendliness gradually evaporates ill-will. One should cultivate the meditation on All-embracing Pity (Karun a)! Meditation on embracing pity, makes cruel harming violence fade away. One should cultivate the meditation on Sympathetic Mutual Joy (Mudita)! Meditation on mutual joy eliminates discontent, green envy and jealousy. One should cultivate the meditation on composed Equanimity (Upekkha)! Meditation on imperturbable equanimity can make anger & aversion cease. MN 62 <...> Being OWNER of ANGER is Pain: Know that everyone is the owner of the consequences of all their actions (Kamma ), whether good or bad... The 11 advantages won by cultivating Universal Friendliness (Mett a): 1: One sleeps happy! 2: One wakes happy! 3: One dreams no evil dreams! 4: One is liked and loved by all human beings! 5: One is liked and loved by all non-human beings too! 6: One is guarded and protected by the divine devas! 7: One cannot be harmed by fire, poison or weapons! 8: One swiftly attains the concentration of absorption! 9: Ones appearance becomes serene, calm and composed! 10: One dies without confusion, bewilderment or panic! 11: One reappears after death on the Brahma level if gone no higher! AN V342 <...> Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #105906 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] This site ptaus1 Hi Kevin, yes, if you have some questions/problems using this board, please ask me and I might be able to help. Though in the next few days I might not respond as quick as I'm preoccupied with that messy mammoth of a thread (and its multiple baby mammoth spin-off threads) you got us all into on dhammawheel :s Best wishes pt > And for reading through long threads (someone mentioned 400 or so) posts in a thread), by using the 'expand', it's easy to scroll through them all. pt will come to the rescue and repeat clearer instructions if anyone wishes. Some like long threads and others prefer new threads started more often - Poster's Choice:-). #105907 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta ptaus1 Dear Sarah, KenO and Scott, Thanks for your further clarifications. I guess when looking at this sutta in the way you explain it, it seems the last passage about stream-enterers was more like a conclusion to the topic of stream-enterers as embodied by dhamma followers and faith followers mentioned before it. I guess that's what was confusing me - I thought it was an enumertion all along, and so it seemed it was differentiating between faith-follower, dhamma-follower and stream-enterer. Thanks again for you explanations. Best wishes pt > S: I think "pondering" is an under-statement (or under-translation). Here we we see it is the description of the stream-enterer, having "entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of worldlings". It is referring to the lokuttara cittas, the magga cittas of the sotapanna, as I think I suggested before. #105908 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] This site kenhowardau Hi Kevin, pt and all, I don't know which method you are using to access DSG posts, but I would advise against sorting them by topic. DSG is best treated as a daily chat on several subjects. So I would advise you to sort your messages by date and read them all every day in the order they were posted. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote: > > > > Hi Kevin, yes, if you have some questions/problems using this board, please ask me and I might be able to help. #105909 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: This site farrellkevin80 ________________________________ Jon: "Hi Kevin Good to see you back!" Thanks a lot Jon. Good to be back. :) Kevin #105910 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] This site farrellkevin80 Sarah, thanks again. The useful posts section is indeed quite helpful, as well as the recordings of the talks. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! With metta, Kevin Sara: "I remember that you were pretty tech-savvy, so in case you're not aware, you can download all archived messages for easy reading/scrolling at: http://www.dhammast udygroup. org or http://www.wuala. com/nichicon (The archives are thanks to the dedicated work of Connie who we can never thank enough). Also, if you haven't come across it, you may like to take a look at "Useful Posts" in the DSG files section. [Work is being undertaken to make this easier to scroll through.] And for reading through long threads (someone mentioned 400 or so) posts in a thread), by using the 'expand', it's easy to scroll through them all. pt will come to the rescue and repeat clearer instructions if anyone wishes. Some like long threads and others prefer new threads started more often - Poster's Choice:-). Metta Sarah ======= #105911 From: "ptaus1" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) ptaus1 Hi Sukin, Sorry for a late response. Thanks for your posts on patipatti and meditation. I enjoyed most of it, and agree with most of what you say, except for a few instances that seem like a bit of a provocation, so I don't think I need to reply there. Here's one thing that seems useful to address for the sake of discussion: > S: I of course see meditation as being an attempt at control and > hence contradicting what one otherwise believes to be the truth. I don't > therefore see this as possibly leading to those truths being > directly experienced, but in fact to further encouraging the tendency to and > belief in 'self' and control. I think this is a view that KenH, Sarah and other here share. One problem I have with it is that it kind of goes to the opposite extreme of when beginner meditators think that all meditation is good, i.e. always kusala. I mean both seem inaccurate, as the cittas are conditioned, they cannot be made to be all kusala or all akusala. Recently I had a chance to meet some real-life buddhists (I'm mostly an "online buddhist", so rarely meet others in person) who did say that they meditate, but when I asked them to clarify, they basically said that there's no difference between a "meditation" and other daily activities because it's all about being aware of dhammas arising in the present moment regardless of the activity. So, my guess is that meditators at some point learn the difference between akusala trying to be aware, and kusala just being aware when it happens, ragardless of the outward activity. I think the situation with formal meditation is further complicated by the fact that samatha is also popular nowadays, which does require stillness and solitude to some degree, i.e. formality of some sort. So to me formal meditation is samatha meditation. For me, it usually takes place when I wake up too early, so I just stay in bed for a while. The difference between trying to focus on the breath in order to relax is fairly obvious when compared to settling on the breath that happens because there's no interest in engaging with the outward sense impressions. And then at some point thinking would start all on its own, and then a bit later a brief awareness would kick in finding the thinking unsettling and would then again settle on the breath, and so it would go until my alarm clock goes off. As for vipassana, currently my opinion is that it cannot be "practiced" because it just happens, but I don't know, maybe it's different for people with advanced insight who are very familiar with characteristics of dhammas and can therefore "switch" to that mode at will so to speak. Don't know. Best wishes pt #105912 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] This site farrellkevin80 Dear PT, Thank you. You do a great job here obviously, and you did great job on that other thread as well. Just for your information (though you may already know) I did not actually start that thread. My comment about the need for Parami was clipped from another thread and used to make a new thread by one of the mods there (Retro) because he took issue with the idea that more than 7 hours or 7 days of a technique is needed to attain sotappana and that ones citta must develop of a course of time through the development of Parami. A number of times I decided to just quietly leave the thread, and I did just that until certain things were said that I felt I just had to respond to. At that point, if I didn't respond it would be a blow to Theravadins because the thread was more of a real "debate" than a discussion.. At this point, pt, my conclusion is that there is no point arguing with people that simply reject the Abhidhamma and most of the Commentaries, it is only an occasion for them to make bad kamma. I hope I did not cause any of them to make bad kamma. But things are out of my control, out of my hands. I cannot change their views, nor can I change the fact that they feel the need to make negative comments about me and everything I say. Whatever. Kevin ________________________________ From: ptaus1 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 9:21:01 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] This site Hi Kevin, yes, if you have some questions/problems using this board, please ask me and I might be able to help. Though in the next few days I might not respond as quick as I'm preoccupied with that messy mammoth of a thread (and its multiple baby mammoth spin-off threads) you got us all into on dhammawheel :s Best wishes pt > And for reading through long threads (someone mentioned 400 or so) posts in a thread), by using the 'expand', it's easy to scroll through them all. pt will come to the rescue and repeat clearer instructions if anyone wishes. Some like long threads and others prefer new threads started more often - Poster's Choice:-). #105913 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] This site sarahprocter... Dear All, --- On Sat, 13/3/10, kenhowardau wrote: >I don't know which method you are using to access DSG posts, but I would advise against sorting them by topic. DSG is best treated as a daily chat on several subjects. So I would advise you to sort your messages by date and read them all every day in the order they were posted. ... S: Yes, I think that's a good comment and it's what we do too. You can click on the last message read in summary form, then click on expand and scroll through the next 30 messages. Then click on 'new' and the next 30 show up in scrollable form. This way, it doesn't matter if anyone has started a new thread too soon or too late either:-). Metta Sarah ====== #105914 From: "Lukas" Date: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:52 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma series, no 1. szmicio Dear Nina, I always enjoying how all those Theras distinctions are according to Reality, they are so accurate. This subtle vibhangas made by Theras and Buddha, they are perfect. This is the beginning, this is what we call sacca ~nana, The beginning of understanding that is caused by very subtle vibhangas. I know we had discussed before that sacca ~nana is understanding of seeing and hearing, but I could not agree fully with this. This is also the yoniso manasikara we get after hearing different vibhangas. Trying to see seeing as it is, is not right, but reading Dhamma, having wonderful opportunity to hear different vibhangas is so natural. And this also makes mind to put attention wisely. This is great opportunity to hear those perfect Vibhangas. I remember myself that I was doing buddhism for so many years, and I was looking at my dhamma friends, they vere so talented, they sit and get so much calm, and I couldnt get it, for so many years of tryings, I was sad. And then in one moments I have this opportunity to hear Dhamma in detailed way, and in instant I started to feel Dhamma, less ignorance. I hadnt had opprtunity to hear Dhamma in detailed way before, and when I get later those Theras comments on reading in details for dull person, It was so perfect and I saw this is according to my life. Now when everybody try to achive someting, I always ask myself why they ignore Theras distinctions on reading in short and reading in detailed way. Why all buddhists wants to achive something by different methods, and ignore so perfect comments of Theras? Best wishes Lukas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Daer friends, > The moderator of the Pali list asked me to write a survey of the > Abhidhamma. I shall try to do so and make use of and quote from my > former writings about this subject. Sarah asked me to publish this > also here on dsg. > ---------- > Intro: > > The Buddha taught conventional truth, sammutti sacca, and ultimate > truth, paramattha sacca. > The Commentary to M.N.5, No Blemishes, states about these two ways of > teaching: > > > teaching > in the conventional way and the teaching by way of ultimate realities. > > There is a human, a being, a woman, a man, a man of the warrior caste, a > brahman, a god, and Mara. Such is the teaching in the conventional way. > > Impermanence, dukkha, anattaa, the aggregates, elements, sensefields, > satipa.t.thaana. Such is the teaching by way of ultimate realities. > > Here the Blessed One taught to those in the conventional way who by > means > of it, after having heard the teaching , penetrated the meaning and > abandoned ignorance, and were skilled to attain distinction. > > But who by means of ultimate realities after having heard the teaching , > penetrated the meaning and abandoned ignorance, and were skilled to > attain > distinction, to those he taught by way of ultimate realities. > > -------- > > Pali: paramatthadesanaa caa ti. > Tattha puggalo, satto, itthii, puriso, khattiyo, braama.no, devo, > Maaro ti > evaruupa sammutidesanaa. > Anicca.m, dukkha.m, anattaa, khandhaa, dhaatuu, aayatanaani, > satipa.t.thaanaa ti evaruupaa paramattha desanaa. > Tattha Bhagavaa, ye sammutivasena desana.m sutvaa attha.m > pa.tivijjhitvaa > moha.m pahaaya visesam adhigantu.m samatthaa, tesa.m sammuti desana.m > deseti. > Ye pana paramatthavasena desana.m sutvaa attha.m pa.tivijjhitvaa moha.m > pahaaya visesam adhigantu.m samatthaa, tesa.m paramatthadesana.m > deseti.> > > -------------- > In the Suttanta we find the teaching in conventional way, but also > the teaching by way of ultimate realities. When the Buddha spoke in > the suttas about situations and people, he pointed to the truth of > impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. He knew the dispositions of > different beings and which kind of teaching was most suitable for them. > > The teaching of the Abhidhamma is mainly by way of ultimate > realities, paramattha dhammas. In order to have understanding of the > Abhidhamma it is essential to know the difference between ultimate > realities, paramattha dhammas and concepts, pa~n~natti, such as a > person or a tree. > > ******* > > Nina. > > #105915 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 sarahprocter... Dear Mike (& Ken O), --- On Sat, 13/3/10, Mike wrote: >>S: Either there's an Atta at this moment or there isn't! > > And if the reality now is thinking with frustration, that's the reality to be known - without a trying or method :-) >Mike: I'm sorry, but (to repeat what has been stated on this board hundreds of times) the way you keep expressing how anyone who diagrees with the KS analysis is mired in atta is simply logically unconvincing, as Ken and others keep pointing out. .... S: I thought we all agreed before that the Buddha taught about dhammas, the various khandhas, such as feeling, perception, seeing, visible object and dosa. We all also agreed that any of these dhammas can be known now, any of these dhammas are conditioned and anatta. This has nothing to do with your analysis, my analysis or KS's analysis. It's the truth that can be proven right now. Ken O wrote an excellent message before (#104605) on right effort, so I know he agrees on these points, however much he might appear to argue otherwise at times: KO: >"What now, o monks, is right effort? <...> <> - is latency of aksuala <> - is accumulation of kusala, that conditions kusala cittas With the arisen of panna, panna will overcome the evil demeritorious things. With the arisen of panna, panna will maintain kusala and condition more kusala to grow. Only panna could eradicate akusala. >With the arisen of panna, one understand the merit of the benefit of the teachings. With this right understanding, confidence of the teaching arise, and when energy arise, striving arise. Development of the path is only possible with the arisen of panna. And panna arise with the right understanding that all dhamma are anatta, there is no "he" or "I". It is impossible for panna to arise together with a "self" view.< end KO quote> ..... S: I take it you agree with these comments of Ken O's, Mike? >Mike: Take a look at what you've written above. It practically shouts: "*I* have the correct way of approaching Dhamma. The rest of *YOU* are mistaken." .... S: No, I think it shouts: There really is no *I*, no *You*, no *My Way*, no *Your Way*, just inconsequential dhammas arising and falling away now to be known. This is the path. .... >Mike: You well may be right, but I've yet to see the KS school explain convincingly why their opinions, choices, and actions are somehow immune from the "creation of self" problem that we all face and are therefore "not a method". .... S: As I mentioned in the same post you're commenting on (as I recall), atta-ditthi is bound to arise unless we're sotapannas. So, of course, the kilesas, including ditthi, are either arising or there as latent tendencies for us all - or rather, adhering to the cittas, ready to condition such ditthi and other kilesas. Only right understanding can know when such ditthi arises. I think this is likely to be apparent at moments of performing any action or attempting to observe/train/make effort arise *in order that* or *with the view that* 'this is the path', 'this is the way for satipatthana or samatha to develop'. This is true regardless of the activity, regardless of whether one follows a particular meditation practice or not. The reason is that at such times there is an idea of 'oneself doing something', rather than an understanding of present dhammas. .... >Mike: However, I still think that the difference between the KS school and "the other reasonably sensible Buddhist teachers" keeps getting blown out of all proportion in some of these discussions. We all face the same difficult problems of understanding the Dhamma .... S: Yes, I certainly agree with the last comment. The Buddha never said that understanding the Dhamma was easy! Let's not talk about 'schools', let's talk about the Dhamma and dhammas. Metta Sarah ======= #105916 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >> H:>Here's a question for you, Sarah: What, IYO, does it mean for there > *not* to be practice? > ... >> S: Simply for there not to be any right understanding of the present > realities (even at the pariyatti level) at this moment. > > In other words, most of the day, no matter what our activities, there is > no practice, no pariyatti, let alone patipatti, let alone pativeda. > > Right practice, patipatti, is a moment of satipatthana, a moment of > following the path. > > What would your answer be, Howard? > --------------------------------------------------------- >H: All that I was looking for was that the answer should not be > "Everything is practice." ... S: I agree that that's pretty meaningless. .... >H: As for what I consider to be practice, it is all of the experience > occurring when the actions urged by the Buddha are in effect. These include > (macroscopically speaking), at least the following: Contemplating the Dhamma, > being mindful of body and mind (introspection), observing sila and > engaging in the four right efforts, and calming & clarifying the mind through > meditation. > --------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Can we say, just the Middle Way, the Eightfold Path, that is the understanding of the 4 Noble Truths as highlighted in the first sermon, the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta? Metta Sarah ======= #105917 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:37 am Subject: Re: vsm revisited sarahprocter... Dear Chew, Perhaps this might encourage you to share your series of translations with us in short sections:-) Hope the project's going well. Metta Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sadhu Chew" wrote: > > Dear Connie, > > Thanks a lot. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! > > That's really useful to me. <...> > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > > > > Dear Han, Chew, > > always good to know about, I think: > > Visuddhimagga, ch XIV, Larry's index of text posts and Nina's summaries and translations of the commentary #55332 #105918 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions withOUT A.Sujin February 2010 (8) sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > And dear Oil and Water: .... S: :-)) .... >what Ken just said is helpful in your > situation, this is thinking long stories about oil and water. What is > there just now in reality? We have to consider this again and again. > I know it may sometimes be hard to take unpleasant words, but are we > not busy with ourselves at such moments? ... S: It's so true that when we're concerned about what the other person says or does, we're just "busy with ourselves at such moments". Just busy with our own feelings, our own thoughts, our own preferences. No metta at all at such times. Yes, always long stories and so little awareness now. Metta Sarah ======== #105919 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:48 am Subject: Re: Bangkok discussions withOUT A.Sujin February 2010 (8) sarahprocter... Dear Chuck, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "charlest" wrote: > > Good friend Sarah, et al > > Chuck: Well, I did not return to USA w/ wife as I am slowly having my teeth repaired. My Thai visa allowed me two sixty day visits; hence, I used the second. My wife is returning to Thailand in about ten days. > > The last few weeks between dental visits to the Bangkok International (nee General) Hospital, I was off-line in various Thai countryside areas (read as no internet plus no cell ((mobile)) phone service from my provider) with friends. In fact, yesterday, I gently refused a trip to Laos today through Sunday. ... S: Thanks for explaining and I hope the dental visits are nearly finished. Many friends from Hong Kong now go to Bangkok for dental services. As I said, please check with Sukin before attending as some weeks there is no discussion. Let me know off-list if you need Sukin's email add. Have you been reading Dhamma books during your visits to the countryside? Metta Sarah ====== #105920 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:58 am Subject: Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Azita & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Sarah: yes, we never know when we'll hear something helpful or have wise reflections - maybe when watching TV, reading the newspaper of sitting on a slow bus....who knows what the conditions will be for the next citta? ... > azita: I think you have made a really important point here. We never know when thoughts of the dhamma will arise and mayb prompt 'us' to refrain from saying something useless or encourage us to give something useful to another being. Its all so 'anatta' isnt it:) .... S: Yes, "so 'anatta'"! This is what is meant by the Dhamma not being "in the book". When understanding grows, sati can be aware of any dhamma,anytime at all, quite unexpectedly, without any plan, intention or special effort for it to arise. As you say, there can be moments of wholesome abstention from akusala, moments of dana and moments or true understanding of dhammas now as anatta. At this moment, just the world of visible object appears and gone immediately. Just one world at a time. All the thinking about stories about the day's events - Sydney, surf, jelly-fish stings, beautiful, healthy food - all just a dream, gone completely. Another world and now another world, on and on endlessly in samsara. Chip in whenever you feel inclined to do so.... Metta Sarah ===== #105921 From: "Mike" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 mikenz66 Hi, Sarah, Sorry, this is getting circular. Of course I agree with Ken's statement about panna. We've been through all that before... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > >Mike: Take a look at what you've written above. It practically shouts: > "*I* have the correct way of approaching Dhamma. The rest of *YOU* are mistaken." > .... > S: No, I think it shouts: There really is no *I*, no *You*, no *My Way*, no *Your Way*, just inconsequential dhammas arising and falling away now to be known. This is the path. Mike: Sure, that's your approach. To think in that way. Mike: I don't have anything new to add to these conversations. If you don't see any logical contradiction in the way you claim other approaches build self view but yours doesn't I must be explaining myself poorly. Metta Mike #105922 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:12 am Subject: Re: VsM instructions on "things to do" and "places/things to avoid" sarahprocter... Dear Lukas & all, Just an extra comment on this good point.... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > I think I could not understand number 2. > > 2. pa.tikkuulasa~n~naapatiruupataaya byaapaado va~ncetiiti yujjati. > Byaapaado (dosa) could be mistaken for pa.tikkuulasa~n~naa (ugly or disgusting) > > Usually dosa IS disgusting and bad. What's the meaning? ... S: As I undersand it, pa.tikkuulasa~n~naa refers to the reflections on the foulness (asubha) of the body, or rupas that make up the body. Actually, all conditioned dhammas are eventually seen through insight as being asubha. One of the perversions (vipallasas) is to see the asubha as subha, to see the foul as beautiful. Only the anagami and arahat not longer take the asubha dhammas for subha dhammas. We may have heard and know in theory that the body is foul and mistake the dosa we have towards it, such as when we're sick or the effects of ageing are apparent, for being the wise perception of the foul, the pa.tikkhhulasa~n~naa. Of course, when there is the wise perception of the foul, there is no dosa, no unpleasant feeling at all. This is why such dosa is a "cheating dhamma". Metta Sarah ====== #105923 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:14 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 jonoabb Hi Alex (105900) > >Does this not make those akusala moments wrong practice? > > Akusala moments are wrong. Sure. > =============== J: Akusala moments that occur outside the setting of a 'practice', such as the akusala that arises in normal daily life, are not 'wrong', they are merely unwholesome and thus not to be followed. Akusala moments that form part of a 'practice', however, are a different matter; to my understanding, they would constitute wrong practice. > =============== > > In any event, how are the kusala moments within a meditation >practice known by the practitioner from the akusala ones (as and >when they occur)? > > They are known with understanding. Greed, anger & delusion are bad. Qualities such as nibbida, viraga, upasama, alobha, adosa, amoha are good. > =============== J: Yes, but how, in practice, can the meditator know which moments are kusala and which are akusala? Is the meditator likely to be aware of underlying clinging to gaining more awareness, or subtle lobha for the arising of particular mental states? The idea that practice makes perfect just doesn't apply in this context, since it is impossible for the meditator to discriminate on a moment-to-moment basis between the wholesome and the unwholesome, unless and until he/she has reached the stage described in the Satipatthana Sutta of 'setting mindfulness to the fore' and 'always mindful, breathes in', etc. > =============== > > To my understanding of the texts, a recitation cannot be not >samatha bhavana unless it is accompanied by panna. Do you see it >differently? > > All that one do, is better be done with panna. Sure. I just don't believe in Noble 1fold path. > =============== J: But a person reciting the parts of the body has no way of ensuring that the reciting will be accompanied by panna. Where is the panna involved in such an activity, as you understand it? Jon #105924 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 jonoabb Hi KenO (105903) > >J: You are saying, I think, that Dispeller is reporting/describing the method used by the teachers of the time. > > > >Fair enough. But that being the case, Dispeller is not itself giving a method in a manner that is capable of being followed by a student, since a teacher is still needed to evaluate the student's reported experiences and respond with the appropriate guidance. > > KO: What you said already describe a method :-) > =============== J: The point is that Dispeller does not set out a method by following which a person may, without the involvement of a teacher, develop samatha (or insight). It does not put itself in the role of a teacher. It merely explains how there is the development of samatha/insight by a person who is under the guidance of a teacher (and such a person takes his guidance from the teacher, not from Dispeller). > =============== > >J: Yes, but 'not too fast or too slow' doesn't really tell the reader what the appropriate speed of recitation is (it merely indicates that speed is a relevant factor). > > KO: Yes a relative but an important instructions > =============== J: As an instruction it is inadequate. As a description of how samatha is developed under the guidance of a teacher, it's perfectly fine. Jon #105925 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- On Sat, 13/3/10, Mike wrote: >> S: No, I think it shouts: There really is no *I*, no *You*, no *My Way*, no *Your Way*, just inconsequential dhammas arising and falling away now to be known. This is the path. >Mike: Sure, that's your approach. To think in that way. ... S: Apologies if this seems "circular" or if I'm being dense, but can you explain what in this sentence above is *not* the Buddha's Teaching. What about it is controversial, especially given that you seem to appreciate all the points about conditioned dhammas being anatta and so on. In other words, what makes it *my approach* in your view? .... >Mike: I don't have anything new to add to these conversations. If you don't see any logical contradiction in the way you claim other approaches build self view but yours doesn't I must be explaining myself poorly. ... S: No, I don't think you're explaining yourself poorly, but you keep referring to different *approaches*, whereas I keep trying to discuss dhammas, especially present dhammas. I don't see this as an approach or a method, but see the understanding of what arises now as being all that matters. This is "the All", surely? You will say that the emphasis on the present understanding is "an approach", but to me, an approach or a method suggests some special 'doing' or 'trying' and this would be the opposite of understanding. Oh, circular again....:-/ I'll let this rest for a while or see if others like pt can retrieve it from it's circular thread:-) Thank you for your patience! Metta Sarah ======== #105926 From: "sarah" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) sarahprocter... Dear Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" wrote: > I noted the items below from your list for later response : .... S: I'll include the items you highlighted after signing off. Are you ready for your "later response"? Were there any you wished to discuss together? I'd be interested to hear why each of these was highlighted, maybe one at a time, or per separate post/thread... Are you in Thailand now? I realise you might have limited internet access now, so no hurry or need to respond if so. I'd be interested to hear about your Dhamma-related activities in Thailand as well. Metta Sarah > > 10. That dhamma which has the characteristic of anatta cannot be made to arise by anyone's will. Simply, there is not *anyone* to have a will. > > > 8. Apart from these conditioned dhammas and the unconditioned dhamma, there are no other realities, no other paramattha dhammas > 12. Apart from these paramattha dhammas, anything else, anything else at all, is a concept. By definition, it is therefore not a reality. > 13. When we think of Mike, Sarah, our house or the computer, there is just the thinking about concepts. If there is no thinking about them, there is no Mike, Sarah, a house or a computer. > > 16. When there is an idea of the tangible object or visible object being a computer, a thing, a substance or whole, it is attanu di.t.thi, also an idea of atta, but not sakkaaya di.t.thi. > > 17. The only way that attanu-ditthi and sakkaaya di.t.thi will ever be eradicated is through the developed understanding of the reality appearing at this moment. Through such understanding of the tangible object, the feeling, the visible object or whatever appears, the characteristic of anatta becomes apparent. > > 18. If there's any effort to try and be aware at this moment, in order to understand the presently appearing object, or any trying to develop more kusala, such as more metta, then it's the wrong path again. > > 19. If the development of understanding is for any purpose other than just the understanding of dhammas, it's wrong again. > > 20. This understanding of the present reality is the Middle Way! #105927 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Connie and Alex: Apadaana sarahprocter... Dear Han, (Connie & Alex), Apologies for the delay. I wrote you a longer reply on Kamma-Vipaaka and on your First Vipaaka and with an introduction to our discussion for others, but seemed to lose my internet connection just as I sent it :-<, so this will be a brief one without the introduction. --- On Wed, 24/2/10, han tun wrote: >Han: It is about what the Buddha had done in his previous lives and the kamma-vipaaka he had to suffer even after he had attained the Buddhahood. It was told by the Buddha himself. I have the Pali text and the Burmese translation, but I do not have the English translation. As an example, I will give the First Vipaaka. ---------- The Buddha, in one of his past lives, was a drunkard called Munaa.li. He wrongly accused a Paccekabuddha. As the result of that kamma-vipaaka, the Buddha, in his last life, was wrongly accused in relation to a female ascetic called Sundarii. ... S: Did anyone provide the English translation for the verses below? It would be helpful if someone could add it as we proceed. Also, out of interest, does the Pali text refer to these as "the 12 Vipaaka"? As you know, from the Abhidhamma detail, vipaaka just refers to the mental results of kamma. Most commonly, it refers to the sense cognitions of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. Some other cittas in the sense-door processes are also vipaka cittas, but in the mind-door process, only the tadarammmana cittas (when they arise) are vipaka cittas. There are also the "process-freed" cittas, the bhavanga cittas, patisandhi and cuti cittas which are vipaka cittas. When we hear wrong accusations, if the voice is harsh, there is likely to be akusala vipaka through the ear-sense, maybe even through the body-sense, but only very developed panna could actually ever know when there is akusala vipaka. For us, it's just speculation. We usually have various long stories about such sounds, such words, but this is thinking, not vipaka. In the case of the Buddha, he knew exactly which cittas were vipaka cittas and what the causes of the akusala vipaka was. Of course, equanimity, not aversion in his case, but yet he'd still know that the sounds represented wrong accusations. >67. ‘‘Munaa.li naamaha.m dhutto, pubbe a~n~naasu jaatisu [a~n~naaya jaatiyaa (udaana a.t.tha.)]; Paccekabuddha. m surabhi.m [sarabhu.m (sii.)], abbhaacikkhi. m aduusaka.m. 68. ‘‘Tena kammavipaakena, niraye sa.msari.m cira.m; Bahuuvassasahassaan i, dukkha.m vedesi vedana.m. 69. ‘‘Tena kammaavasesena, idha pacchimake bhave; Abbhakkhaana. m mayaa laddha.m, sundarikaaya kaara.naa. ---------- >Han: I wish to use the English translation when Sarah and I discuss about the vipaakas. ... S: I'll look forward to your further elaborations and comments. I look forward to discussing these 12, one at a time. I hope Connie can help with the English too. Metta Sarah ====== #105928 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Connie and Alex: Apadaana hantun1 Dear Sarah, (Connie & Alex), Sarah: Did anyone provide the English translation for the verses below? It would be helpful if someone could add it as we proceed. Also, out of interest, does the Pali text refer to these as "the 12 Vipaaka"? Han: No, it was my translation in brief, not word for word. No, the title of the Pali text is Pubbakammapilotikabuddhaapadaana.m. But, in Burma, who knows these twelve instances of previous lives of Buddha knows it as "the 12 Vipaaka". For example, in The Great Chronicle of Buddha by Mingun Sayadaw U Vicittasarabhivamsa (in Burmese language) these episodes were referred to as "the 12 Vipaaka". -------------------- Sarah: As you know, from the Abhidhamma detail, vipaaka just refers to the mental results of kamma. Most commonly, it refers to the sense cognitions of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. Some other cittas in the sense-door processes are also vipaka cittas, but in the mind-door process, only the tadarammmana cittas (when they arise) are vipaka cittas. There are also the "process-freed" cittas, the bhavanga cittas, patisandhi and cuti cittas which are vipaka cittas. Han: You are talking about vipaaka cittas. I am talking about kamma vipaaka. In verse 68 kamma vipaaka was mentioned. 68. ‘‘Tena kammavipaakena, niraye sa.msari.m cira.m; Bahuuvassasahassaan i, dukkha.m vedesi vedana.m. -------------------- Sarah: When we hear wrong accusations, if the voice is harsh, there is likely to be akusala vipaka through the ear-sense, maybe even through the body-sense, but only very developed panna could actually ever know when there is akusala vipaka. For us, it's just speculation. We usually have various long stories about such sounds, such words, but this is thinking, not vipaka. In the case of the Buddha, he knew exactly which cittas were vipaka cittas and what the causes of the akusala vipaka was. Of course, equanimity, not aversion in his case, but yet he'd still know that the sounds represented wrong accusations. Han: Again, I must say that we are talking about two different things. You are talking about vipaaka cittas. I am talking about kamma vipaaka. -------------------- > >Han: I wish to use the English translation when Sarah and I discuss about the vipaakas. > Sarah: I'll look forward to your further elaborations and comments. I look forward to discussing these 12, one at a time. I hope Connie can help with the English too. Han: I could not get the English translation. I can only give you the Pali text of the complete buddhaapadaana. If you take up these twelve instances, one at a time, I will be very happy. But if you confine your discussions to vipaaka cittas like seven Akusala vipaaka cittas (unwholesome resultant consciousness) and eight Ahetuka Kusala Vipaaka Cittas (rootless, resultant, moral consciousness), we will not get very far, because I will be talking a different perspective, i.e., kamma vipaaka that the Buddha himself had uttered in his narrative. Respectfully, Han #105929 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: To Connie and Alex: Apadaana ptaus1 Hi Han, Maybe I misunderstood something, but wasn't the file connie provided recently the actual English translation of the Udana you were looking for? This is connie's message about it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/105516 And this is the direct link to the file she is talking about: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UIybS_cBn1B4k4FrY8JUYagtyKlN1EerJxGiCI-Yy505jPnVn_e\ KE0QOopiYUdVI_WgxT_ADu6lrXw1ZlMo1/zMunaali.txt Is that the translation you were looking for? Best wishes pt > Sarah: Did anyone provide the English translation for the verses below? It would be helpful if someone could add it as we proceed. Also, out of interest, does the Pali text refer to these as "the 12 Vipaaka"? > > snip <> #105930 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: To Connie and Alex: Apadaana hantun1 Dear pt (Connie, Sarah), I could not locate this link at that time. http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/UIybS_cBn1B4k4FrY8JUYagtyKlN1EerJxGiCI-Yy505jPnVn_e\ KE0QOopiYUdVI_WgxT_ADu6lrXw1ZlMo1/zMunaali.txt Yes, this link contains the translations. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #105931 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/13/2010 3:39:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: >H: As for what I consider to be practice, it is all of the experience > occurring when the actions urged by the Buddha are in effect. These include > (macroscopically speaking), at least the following: Contemplating the Dhamma, > being mindful of body and mind (introspection), observing sila and > engaging in the four right efforts, and calming & clarifying the mind through > meditation. > --------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Can we say, just the Middle Way, the Eightfold Path, that is the understanding of the 4 Noble Truths as highlighted in the first sermon, the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta? =============================== Yes, we can say that, but I prefer to say what I did say. ;-)) BTW, I've started rereading MN 19 and am discovering that it is a truly remarkable teaching. When people read it, including me, it seems that it is usually the latter part describing what occurred during the watches of the night to which most attention is paid. But as I read it now, I see it as a detailed description of the entire unique meditative process that culminated in transforming Gotama into the Buddha. It details a meditation that started with an investigative introspection that calmly distinguished wholesome from unwholesome qualities as they arose, that led into the calm and clarity of the four jhanas, and that then joined together that jhanic peace and heightened clarity with further direct introspective investigation resulting in the arising of liberative wisdom and final awakening. It is an amazing, detailed description! With metta, Howard Path to Full Awakening /Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward./ (From the Kimattha Sutta) #105932 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:40 am Subject: Re: vsm revisited chewsadhu Dear Sarah, Sharing and discussing the Dhamma at DSG is great. I always want to learn from you all. May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote: > > Dear Chew, > > Perhaps this might encourage you to share your series of translations with us in short sections:-) Hope the project's going well. > > Metta > <...> #105933 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma series, no 1. nilovg Dear Lukas, Op 13-mrt-2010, om 7:52 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven: > I hadnt had opprtunity to hear Dhamma in detailed way before, and > when I get later those Theras comments on reading in details for > dull person, It was so perfect and I saw this is according to my life. ------- N: Hearing the details of the Dhamma helps us to see that the Abhidhamma points to the present reality. If one does not see this, there cannot be any understanding of the Abhidhamma, even when we read through all seven books. We are reminded all the time: it is not self who sees, hears or thinks, these are different cittas accompanied by cetasikas. They arise each because of their own conditions. Nina. #105934 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Connie and Alex: Apadaana nilovg Dear Han, pt, Connie, Op 13-mrt-2010, om 14:33 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Yes, this link contains the translations. ------ N: Yes, I have in hard cover the Udana co by Peter Masefield, and it is in II, p. 633. All the twelve vipaakas are mentioned. Han: Tena kammavipaakena: here we have the compound kammavipakena. Compounds are hard to translate and there are many kinds of them. This describes the relation between kamma and its result. Kamma is the paccaya for such or such result. If we translate in English kamma/ vipaaka it may not describe this relation. We have to consider the context. Peter translates: through this deed's residue, there is now... In other words, a past kamma can produce later on vipaaka. He receives a result similar to the deed he did before. Hearing unpleasant sounds through the ears. Nina. #105935 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Jon ? >> ============ === >J: The point is that Dispeller does not set out a method by following which a person may, without the involvement of a teacher, develop samatha (or insight). It does not put itself in the role of a teacher. It merely explains how there is the development of samatha/insight by a person who is under the guidance of a teacher (and such a person takes his guidance from the teacher, not from Dispeller). > >> ============ === KO:? Your reasoning is not in line with the text.? It does not matter whether the person take his guidance from his teacher or not.? The text is clear on instructions?this Dispeller of Delusion 1148.? Fristly, the recital of the skin pentad in the aforesaid way forward for five days, and back for five days ..... should be done for half a month Visud VIII, 50 50.? Now when he does the recitation, he should divide itup into the "skin pentad" etc and do it forwards and backwards.? After saying "Head, hair, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin", he should repeat it backwards, "Skin teeth, nail, body hairs, head hairs." If this is not descriptive enough to consider instructions, then you should?shown textual?that rebuke these instructions. >> >> KO: Yes a relative but an important instructions >> ============ === > >J: As an instruction it is inadequate. As a description of how samatha is developed under the guidance of a teacher, it's perfectly fine. KO:? Isnt that a method already :-) cheers Ken O #105936 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vsm revisited nilovg Dear Chew, I saved what you sent me. Han told me about the high speed, but he said it is O.K. to react later on. Op 13-mrt-2010, om 14:40 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: Sarah wrote: > Perhaps this might encourage you to share your series of > translations with us in short sections:-) Hope the project's going > well. -------- Chew: Ñ: (22) Through the attainment of the base consisting of boundless space in the case of perceptions of matter, perceptions of resistance, and perceptions of variety, (a) abandoning is virtue ... Chew: What are perceptions of resistance(pat.ighasañña-) and perceptions of variety(na-nattasañña-)? -------- N: perceptions of resistance(pat.ighasañña-): a sense object impinges on the appropriate doorway. There is a kind of 'friction', with this impingement. perceptions of variety(na-nattasañña-): the multiformity of sense impressions, there is such variety of them. It is contrary to jhaanacitta which is onepointednes on the meditation subject. Nina. #105937 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 ashkenn2k Dear Sarah pse let me add more on to this email .... >S: The point is that several of us (and also KS in KK) have picked up on your frequent reference to "method", "doing", "not doing", "choice", "instructions' and so on, especiatlly in the context of samatha bhavana because our words reflect our ideas and as KS said to you a few times, such words all suggest an Atta behind the beliefs. > >For example, you say "it is just instructions for those with the accumulations and panna. Just like some prefer seating and some prefer studying dhamma like Ven Kassapa and Ven Ananda in Buddha's time." > >The difference is that Ven Kassapa and Ven Ananda had no ideas about "following a method", of "doing samatha", or of "following special instructions" when living in the forest or amongst a community. They just followed their natural tendencies, fully confident that satipatthana at this moment doesn't depend on any particular situation. > >Many times KS asked you what calm is at the present moment, what understanding is at the present moment. As you say (#105693), you replied many times that there is no calm without panna and that all jhanas have panna accompaning them. You also say that "one develops panna before samatha or vipassana" and that you don't doubt this or "instructions witten on samatha objects". Again, with respect, I think you're missing the point she was making and we've all been making, starting with Ken H. > >This is just the beginning of samatha bhavana at this moment if there is understanding. It's not a question of being interested in "doing samatha" or "not doing samatha" as you suggest. It's not a matter of sometime, at a later stage in the development, starting to recite texts, following special methods or instructions (if there are accumulations for such) in order to have more calm and understanding. If it's lobha now that follows a method, it's lobha later that follows a method. > >Another point you keep repeating is that "not everyone takes up a meditation subject, those who are on vipassana method or in the dry insighters don't take up a meditation subject". You also say that you have no interest in such for yourself, but you still consider these are methods or formal practices. >In spite of all your comments about anatta, accumulations, panna first and so on, this all sounds like Self doing something, making choices, taking up meditation subjects and so on. It doesn't make sense to me. KO:??Ven Kassapa and Ven Andana already have these tendecies?even before they become sotapanna.? ??Natural tendecies or accumulations?are ?something that I have said to Jon a few times.?I also said samatha objects must suit a person inclinations? or accumulations.?If that accumlations?suits the instructions given in Visud, they will develop it.??And instructions are not said by me, Visud are full of it unless you?show?textual support, ?otherwise, we have to accept these are instructions written by the ancients.? I have no issue with them because to me it does not matter, it is panna that matters.? I dont force text written by ancient to my own understanding or intepret the way I think it should be interpreted,???I leave it as it is.?In my honest opinion, ?I believe there are reasons for them to be so explicit, descriptive and?instructions given.? On the other?hand anyone who think they could follow?samatha bhavana?without developing panna, its to me no understanding at all and is against the teaching of the Visud. I find the usage of doing?seem to have a negative impact in DSG.? If person follow its natural tendecis isn't that doing, just like when you and I naturally switch on the?computer, isnt that doing.? So as I said, why stuck with words.? We should be clear when someone said there is a self?developing panna that is wrong because panna cannot arise with self.? If the person said I want to develop panna, pse kindly explain, that is different.??If someone said I prefer the samantha or vipassana, the person is just saying his inclinations.? There is nothing wrong because of each person accumulations.? Dhamma dont choose, that does not mean they dont act (cetana)?according to one's accumulation.??It is just about following the text and I dont find any contradictions with anatta.? It is your thinking?that there is no doing, if there is no doing, then there should not be any cetana cetasika ? Cheers Ken O #105938 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 ashkenn2k Dear Alex > >One can do anything, even listening to KS with Self View. One can walk, lie, stand or sit with Self View. WHen one eats or drinks it can be done with self view. Does this mean that eating and drinking is prohibited (it can be done with self view!) ? >No. Just do it with wisdom. > KO:??? When you said you do it with?wisdom, are you thinking of eating or?you are tasting.? Wisdom develops only when?panna?arise to understand the characteristic of taste or hardness of object etc.? ?Panna is develop slowly because of our deep seated accumulations that?conditions?the akusala cittas that blind us?from seeing the characteristics of dhamma?that arise and lobha keep wanting it and miccha ditthi keep thinking there is a self.? So if you think, I am tasting, that is already arisen of miccha ditthi.?Or you think there is tasting,?that is already thinking and not tasting.? When panna arise to understand tasting, it is just?tasting or the characteristic of tasting. > >Same with meditation. The heart of Dhamma is the 4NT. The 2nd NT says that origin of Dukkha is craving. 3NT states that cessation of suffering is when craving ceases. > >Properly done meditation helps to makes craving cease. In fact the 4th NT includes samma-samadhi within it. > >Any thing, be it meditation or listening to KS, can be done with wrong views. It is not the activity itself but the extraneous Self View attached to it. Self View belongs to clinging (upadana). Proximate cause of clinging is craving... Meditations such as Asubha, 32 bodyparts, etc, cut down on craving and Self, I, me, mine beliefs. > >Buddha gave instructions, not the menu. Reading the menu will not quench one's thirst or hunger. Eating will. KO:? What is properly done meditation, conforms to Visud?? Lets be honest and truthful which I have been saying to you.? If you started without understanding or thinking your understanding is good enough and do meditation, you will find yourself with many arising of akusala cittas because your mind?will have?self view or lobha especially lobha for a calm feeling.? That will condition more akusala.? Ken O #105939 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:28 am Subject: Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 truth_aerator Hi Jon, all, >dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Hi Alex > > (105900) > > >Does this not make those akusala moments wrong practice? > > > > Akusala moments are wrong. Sure. > > =============== > > J: Akusala moments that occur outside the setting of a 'practice', >such as the akusala that arises in normal daily life, are >not 'wrong', they are merely unwholesome and thus not to be followed. Ok. Akusala moments are unwholesome and should not be followed. > Akusala moments that form part of a 'practice', however, are a >different matter; to my understanding, they would constitute wrong >practice. Akusala moments do not directly form part of practice. > > > =============== > > > In any event, how are the kusala moments within a meditation >practice known by the practitioner from the akusala ones (as and >when they occur)? > > > > They are known with understanding. Greed, anger & delusion are bad. Qualities such as nibbida, viraga, upasama, alobha, adosa, amoha are good. > > =============== > > J: Yes, but how, in practice, can the meditator know which moments >are kusala and which are akusala? Through awareness and wisdom. > Is the meditator likely to be aware of underlying clinging to >gaining more awareness, or subtle lobha for the arising of >particular mental states? Some meditators may, some may not be. Many meditation teachers do teach that one should not cling or crave for "wonderful" experiences. > > The idea that practice makes perfect just doesn't apply in this context, since it is impossible for the meditator to discriminate on a moment-to-moment basis between the wholesome and the unwholesome, unless and until he/she has reached the stage described in the Satipatthana Sutta of 'setting mindfulness to the fore' and 'always mindful, breathes in', etc. > Some meditators may, so not. It seems to me that the idea that one will be able to discriminate between real mental states merely through reading about them (and never observing them with mindfulness, satisampajana, etc) in a book is incorrect. > > =============== > > > To my understanding of the texts, a recitation cannot be not >samatha bhavana unless it is accompanied by panna. Do you see it >differently? > > > > All that one do, is better be done with panna. Sure. I just don't believe in Noble 1fold path. > > =============== > >J: But a person reciting the parts of the body has no way of >ensuring that the reciting will be accompanied by panna. Person who studies under KS, and considers the Dhamma, can have the same problem! >Where is the panna involved in such an activity, as you understand >it? What one does has to be done for a purpose. The heart of Buddhist teaching is the 4NT. 32 parts recitation can help one to see the 1st NT, see and develop the other truths. With metta, Alex #105940 From: "Sadhu Chew" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: vsm revisited chewsadhu Dear Nina, When compare with the aru-pa jha-na citta, the object of ru-pa jha-na citta is called the perceptions of resistance. And there are variety of objects for the ru-pa jha-na citta, but not the aru-pa jha-na citta, as for the first aru-pa jha-na citta only takes the boundless space as object. Am I correct? May all beings be well and happy. With respect, Chew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Chew, > I saved what you sent me. Han told me about the high speed, but he > said it is O.K. to react later on. > Op 13-mrt-2010, om 14:40 heeft Sadhu Chew het volgende geschreven: > Sarah wrote: > > Perhaps this might encourage you to share your series of > > translations with us in short sections:-) Hope the project's going > > well. > -------- > Chew: ?`: (22) Through the attainment of the base consisting of > boundless space in the case of perceptions of matter, perceptions of > resistance, and perceptions of variety, (a) abandoning is virtue ... > Chew: What are perceptions of resistance(pat.ighasañña-) and > perceptions of variety(na-nattasañña-)? > > -------- > > N: perceptions of resistance(pat.ighasañña-): a sense object > impinges on the appropriate doorway. There is a kind of 'friction', > with this impingement. > > perceptions of variety(na-nattasañña-): the multiformity of sense > impressions, there is such variety of them. It is contrary to > jhaanacitta which is onepointednes on the meditation subject. > > Nina. > > #105941 From: "connie" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:41 am Subject: Sangiiti Sutta Fives (319, 19) nichiconn Dear Friends, the sutta continues: CSCD 319. < Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Non-Buddhists have never attained full Jhana ashkenn2k Dear Alex ? KO:? Ok let me write the sutta quote <> > Alex >In that sutta the ordinary worldlings have not achieved complete Jhana. One of the factors to achieve full Jhana is to abandon Doubt in triple gem. Ordinary worldlings cannot. KO:? <>? No jhanas no rebirth in Brahma for worldings. Alex >Nowhere in the suttas does it talk about lokuttara Jhana. Only Jhanas as part of N8P. Since N8P is outside of non-Buddhist range, non-Buddhists cannot do N8P and Jhana that is part of it. KO:? <> this is lokuttara citta. Alex >In DN29(Pasadika sutta) it is said that 4 Jhanas lead to 4 stages of sainthood (stream entry -> arhatship). Since those worldlings didn't become Aryans, I question their "Jhana". At best it was a diluted version. KO:? It is not in the text.? or could you quote me the part as I could have miss it thanks Ken O #105943 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Non-Buddhists have never attained full Jhana truth_aerator Dear Ken0, all, > KO:? Ok let me write the sutta quote > > <> > > > > Alex >In that sutta the ordinary worldlings have not achieved complete Jhana. One of the factors to achieve full Jhana is to abandon Doubt in triple gem. Ordinary worldlings cannot. > > KO:? <>? No jhanas no rebirth in Brahma for worldings. > A: That sutta doesn't establish the necessity of Jhana for rebirth in rupa lokas. B: The "Jhana" that worldlings have attained is not Jhana as part of samma-samadhi of N8P. If that "Jhana" was part of samma-samadhi, which is part of N8P, then they would not be worldlings - but sekha. > Alex >Nowhere in the suttas does it talk about lokuttara Jhana. Only Jhanas as part of N8P. Since N8P is outside of non-Buddhist range, non-Buddhists cannot do N8P and Jhana that is part of it. > > KO:? <Nibbana>> this is lokuttara citta. Jhana as part of N8P does lead to Awakening. Diluted "jhana", or any "jhana" of non-Buddhists does not lead to awakening. > > Alex >In DN29(Pasadika sutta) it is said that 4 Jhanas lead to 4 stages of sainthood (stream entry -> arhatship). Since those worldlings didn't become Aryans, I question their "Jhana". At best it was a diluted version. > > KO:? It is not in the text.? or could you quote me the part as I >could have miss it Online DN29 These are the four modes of being addicted and devoted to pleasure, Cunda, which conduce absolutely to unworldliness, to passionlessness, to cessation, to peace, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. What are the four ? Firstly, Cunda, when a brother, aloof from sensuous appetites, aloof from evil ideas, enters into and abides in the First Jhana, wherein there is initiative and sustained thought which is born of solitude and is full of zest and ease. Secondly, when suppressing initiative and sustained thought, he enters into and abides in the Second Jhana, which is self-evoked, born of concentration, full of zest and ease, in that, set free from initial and sustained thought, the mind grows calm and sure, dwelling on high.Thirdly, when a brother, no longer fired with zest, abides calmly contemplative, while mindful and self-possessed he feels in his body that ease whereof Ariyans declare : He that is calmly contemplative and aware, he dwelleth at ease, so does he enter into and abide in the Third Jhana. Fourthly, by putting aside ease and by putting aside mal-aise, by the passing away of the joy and the sorrow he used to feel, he enters into and abides in the Fourth Jhana, rapture of utter purity of mindfulness and equanimity, wherein neither ease is felt nor any ill. These four modes of being addicted and devoted to pleasure, Cunda, conduce to utter unworldliness, to passionlessness, to cessation, to peace, to insight, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Pasadika_Sutta (2nd paragraph after #24 ) The translation is not perfect, but it will do. Pali does talk about 4 Jhanas. 4 Jhanas lead to Awakening. If non-Buddhist ascetics have reached 4 Jhanas, then why didn't they become Awakened? They didn't have real Jhana... With metta, Alex #105944 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:14 am Subject: Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening truth_aerator DN29 Pasadika Sutta Jhanas have four results: Stream Entry, once-returnining, non-returning and Arhatship. ==== 25. It may happen, Cunda, that Wanderers teaching other doctrines than ours may declare : For those who live addicted and devoted to these four modes of pleasure [alex: see #24. These are 4 Jhanas], brother, how much fruit, how many advantages are to be expected ? Them ye should answer thus : Four kinds of fruit, brother, four advantages are to be expected. What are the four ? Firstly, the case of a brother who by the complete destruction of the three fetters becomes a Stream-winner, saved from disaster hereafter, certain to attain Enlightenment. Secondly, the case of a brother who by the complete destruction of three fetters has so diminished passion and hate and illusion that he has become a Once- Returner, and returning but once to this world will make an end of ill. Thirdly, the case of a brother who, by the complete destruction of the five last fetters, will be reborn in another world, thence never to return, there to pass away. Fourthly, the case of the brother who, by the destruction of the mental Intoxicants, has come to know and realize for himself, even in this life, emancipation of intellect and emancipation of insight, and therein abides. These, brother, are the four kinds of fruit, the four advantages to be expected by those who are addicted and devoted to those four modes of pleasure. http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Pasadika_Sutta With metta, Alex #105945 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening ashkenn2k Dear Alex The four modes?is not related to the?four levels of enlightment.? Refer to the?Jhanas and Rebirth << But the disciple of the Blessed One remains there for full lifespan, and then, after completing the lifespan of the devas, he attains final Nibbana.>>,? That is only 1st jhanas and the disciple already become Arahants.? Also there are dry insightors who do not need jhanas to be enlighted. thanks Ken O > >? >DN29 Pasadika Sutta > >Jhanas have four results: Stream Entry, once-returnining, non-returning and Arhatship. > >==== >25. It may happen, Cunda, that Wanderers teaching other doctrines than ours may declare : For those who live addicted and devoted to these four modes of pleasure [alex: see #24. These are 4 Jhanas], brother, how much fruit, how many advantages are to be expected ? Them ye should answer thus : Four kinds of fruit, brother, four advantages are to be expected. What are the four ? Firstly, the case of a brother who by the complete destruction of the three fetters becomes a Stream-winner, saved from disaster hereafter, certain to attain Enlightenment. Secondly, the case of a brother who by the complete destruction of three fetters has so diminished passion and hate and illusion that he has become a Once- Returner, and returning but once to this world will make an end of ill. Thirdly, the case of a brother who, by the complete destruction of the five last fetters, will be reborn in another world, thence never to return, there to pass away. Fourthly, the case of the brother who, by the destruction of the mental Intoxicants, has come to know and realize for himself, even in this life, emancipation of intellect and emancipation of insight, and therein abides. These, brother, are the four kinds of fruit, the four advantages to be expected by those who are addicted and devoted to those four modes of pleasure. >http://tipitaka. wikia.com/ wiki/Pasadika_ Sutta > >With metta, > >Alex > > #105946 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Non-Buddhists have never attained full Jhana ashkenn2k Dear Alex >> >> KO:? <>? No jhanas no rebirth in Brahma for worldings. >> > >A: That sutta doesn't establish the necessity of Jhana for rebirth in rupa lokas. > KO:? Pse see the starting point -?? <>? the establishing is the word 1st jhanas. >> KO:? <Nibbana>> this is lokuttara citta. > >Jhana as part of N8P does lead to Awakening. > >Diluted "jhana", or any "jhana" of non-Buddhists does not lead to awakening. KO:? Jhana as part of 8NP means supramundane jhanas.? to have supramundane jhanas, then?there must be?panna.?? jhanas does not lead to insight, it could only use as a basis of insight but not insight itself because?only panna is insight.??? No such thing as diluted jhanas, it is either supramundance or mundane.? Cheers Ken O #105947 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:54 am Subject: Re: Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, > Dear Alex > The four modes?is not related to the?four levels of enlightment.? Is it possible to become awakening from only the 1st Jhana, or does one need to have all 4 Jhanas as N8P says? Any sutta quotes? >Refer to the?Jhanas and Rebirth > << But the disciple of the Blessed One remains there for full >lifespan, and then, after completing the lifespan of the devas, he >attains final Nibbana.>>,? That is only 1st jhanas and the disciple >already become Arahants.? Maybe the disciple has attained 4th Jhana in that sphere? >Also there are dry insightors who do not need jhanas to be ?>enlighted. By following The Noble 7 Fold Path? What happened to the 8th, the required factor? With metta, Alex #105948 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Scott > >Scott: Okay, I'm glad you clarified that you are not arguing in favour of a method. Now we have a rare opportunity to discuss the meaning of 'method' and, in general, the way in which to understand textual material of this nature - rare in the sense of not having to constantly rehash things as one does with the 'methodists. ' ;-) > >Since we both seem to see anatta from a similar perspective, we can then wonder about this passage. We seem to agree that it is not meant to be a how-to manual for modern-day punters. The standard argument here is that it is a 'description' not a 'method' (as I believe Jon expresses). If a method, then how do you square it with anatta? What is meant to happen by adhering to this 'method?'?? KO:? IMHO, there are explicit, descriptive instructions and that is consider a method.? I cannot denied it.? As long as one accumulations suit a subject of bhavana, the development of the samantha bhavana is possible.?? There must be accumulations?for the person who take up the subject, just like Ven Kassapa, or many disciples who learn the 32 parts become enlighted which is described in the texts.? Anatta is about no exercise of control over dhammas or there is not self.???Anatta is not about do or not doing.???Understanding of anatta does not prevent a do because do is not done by anatta, is will by cetana.? And cetana is anatta.??On the other hand,?I do without the accumulationa?and panna, that is craving?with wrong practise.????This is the fine distinction we must understand.? Similarly, now about atta,? Atta got nothing to do with choices.??IMHO, choices?are the result of?chanda that interest or lobha that craves.? Atta is miccha ditthi?when?accompanies?chanda or lobha?think there is an "I" in?I choose.?? That is why even though?miccha ditthi is eradicated?at sotapanna, there is still lobha?and it is lobha?that keep seeking pleasant objects?and will keep?choosing to have pleasurable feelings.? Cheers Ken O #105949 From: A T Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:04 am Subject: Re: Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening truth_aerator Dear KenO, all, Those other ascetics after reaching "jhana" (AN4.123) are said to: "He savors that, longs for that, finds satisfaction through that." This is not what real Jha-na leads to. In DN29 PTS DN 3.131 the real 4 Jha-nas are said to lead to: "vira-ga-ya nirodha-ya upasama-ya abhiñña-ya sambodha-ya nibba-na-ya sam.vattanti" "...to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to awakening, to Nibbana." Did those ascetics develop that which leads to dispassion -> nibbana? No. Their state didn't lead to these things. If their result was different, then the means were different. Jha-na as part of N8P was unknown before the Buddha, and the Buddha awoke or 'rediscovered' Jha-na as said in Pañca-lacan.d.asuttam.. There is also Dhp 372 line that says: Natthi jha-nam. apaññassa, pañña- natthi ajha-yato [ajjha-yino (ka.)]; "There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana.” http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.than.html ===== Did those non-Buddhist ascetics develop pañña-? No. If they did, why did they fall to planes of woe? ================ DN29 ===================================== ‘‘Catta-rome, cunda, sukhallika-nuyoga- ekantanibbida-ya vira-ga-ya nirodha-ya upasama-ya abhiñña-ya sambodha-ya nibba-na-ya sam.vattanti. Katame catta-ro? ‘‘Idha, cunda, bhikkhu vivicceva ka-mehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkam. savica-ram. vivekajam. pi-tisukham. pat.hamam. jha-nam. upasampajja viharati. Ayam. pat.hamo sukhallika-nuyogo...‘‘Puna caparam., cunda, bhikkhu sukhassa ca paha-na- dukkhassa ca paha-na-…pe… catuttham. jha-nam. upasampajja viharati. Ayam. catuttho sukhallika-nuyogo. ‘‘Ime kho, cunda, catta-ro sukhallika-nuyoga- ekantanibbida-ya vira-ga-ya nirodha-ya upasama-ya abhiñña-ya sambodha-ya nibba-na-ya sam.vattanti. ================================================================== 4 Jhanas lead to stream entry and higher: Evam.va-dino, cunda, aññatitthiya- paribba-jaka- evamassu vacani-ya- – ‘ime kho, a-vuso, catta-ro sukhallika-nuyoge anuyutta-nam. viharatam. catta-ri phala-ni catta-ro a-nisam.sa- pa-t.ikan.kha-. Katame catta-ro? Idha-vuso, bhikkhu tin.n.am. sam.yojana-nam. parikkhaya- sota-panno hoti avinipa-tadhammo niyato sambodhipara-yan.o. Idam. pat.hamam. phalam., pat.hamo a-nisam.so. Puna caparam., a-vuso, bhikkhu tin.n.am. sam.yojana-nam. parikkhaya- ra-gadosamoha-nam. tanutta- sakada-ga-mi- hoti, sakideva imam. lokam. a-gantva- dukkhassantam. karoti. Idam. dutiyam. phalam., dutiyo a-nisam.so. Puna caparam., a-vuso, bhikkhu pañcannam. orambha-giya-nam. sam.yojana-nam. parikkhaya- opapa-tiko hoti, tattha parinibba-yi- ana-vattidhammo tasma- loka-. Idam. tatiyam. phalam., tatiyo a-nisam.so. Puna caparam., a-vuso, bhikkhu a-sava-nam. khaya- ana-savam. cetovimuttim. pañña-vimuttim. dit.t.heva dhamme sayam. abhiñña- sacchikatva- upasampajja viharati. Idam. catuttham. phalam. catuttho a-nisam.so. Ime kho, a-vuso, catta-ro sukhallika-nuyoge anuyutta-nam. viharatam. ima-ni catta-ri phala-ni, catta-ro a-nisam.sa- pa-t.ikan.kha-’’ti. - PTS DN 3.132 ============================================================= With metta, Alex #105950 From: "Mike" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: A Survey of Paramatttha Dhamma - The Natural Way of Development - No 18 mikenz66 Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > You will say that the emphasis on the present understanding is "an approach", but to me, an approach or a method suggests some special 'doing' or 'trying' and this would be the opposite of understanding. Oh, circular again....:-/ Yes, I'll leave it at that. I think Ken O explains this stuff much better than I can. Metta Mike #105951 From: "Mike" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 mikenz66 Hi Ken, Thank you for putting this so clearly. Metta Mike --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > KO: Anatta is about no exercise of control over dhammas or there is not self.???Anatta is not about do or not doing.???Understanding of anatta does not prevent a do because do is not done by anatta, is will by cetana.? And cetana is anatta.??On the other hand,?I do without the accumulationa?and panna, that is craving?with wrong practise.????This is the fine distinction we must understand.? > > KO: Similarly, now about atta,? Atta got nothing to do with choices.??IMHO, choices?are the result of?chanda that interest or lobha that craves.? Atta is miccha ditthi?when?accompanies?chanda or lobha?think there is an "I" in?I choose.?? That is why even though?miccha ditthi is eradicated?at sotapanna, there is still lobha?and it is lobha?that keep seeking pleasant objects?and will keep?choosing to have pleasurable feelings.? #105952 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Sarah), -------- <. . .> H: > . But as I read it now, I see it as a detailed description of the entire unique meditative process that culminated in transforming Gotama into the Buddha. It details a meditation that started with an investigative introspection that calmly distinguished wholesome from unwholesome qualities as they arose, that led into the calm and clarity of the four jhanas, and that then joined together that jhanic peace and heightened clarity with further direct introspective investigation resulting in the arising of liberative wisdom and final awakening. It is an amazing, detailed description! ----------- So, to put it briefly, you prefer to see the Dhamma as a self-improvement course rather than an explanation of the present, conditioned, reality. This reminds me of Scientology, which has been in the news here lately. It subjects its members to hard-sell campaigns in which they are required to spend huge sums of money on self-improvement courses. (In Australia the average, middle-class Scientology couple will spend about half a million dollars.) They soon realise it is a waste of money, of course, but if they object they are threatened with expulsion, which would mean their children and friends never speaking to them again. So I am unimpressed with self-improvement courses. I tar them all with the same brush. Not least the Buddhist ones! If I am to accept the efficacy of formal practices, I must reject the efficacy of conditioned dhammas. And that would be a terrible cost! Ken H #105953 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Connie and Alex: Apadaana hantun1 Dear Nina (Connie, pt, Sarah), Nina: Han: Tena kammavipaakena: here we have the compound kammavipakena. Compounds are hard to translate and there are many kinds of them. This describes the relation between kamma and its result. Kamma is the paccaya for such or such result. If we translate in English kamma/vipaaka it may not describe this relation. We have to consider the context. Peter translates: through this deed's residue, there is now. In other words, a past kamma can produce later on vipaaka. He receives a result similar to the deed he did before. Hearing unpleasant sounds through the ears. ---------- Han: I do not have disagreement with your above statement. But I wish to say that you (and Sarah) are looking at the "how", while I am looking at the "why". You are saying "how" the Buddha might have experienced the vipaaka that was produced by his past kamma. Of course, he would have the unpleasant sounds through the ears when he was wrongly accused, or burning sensations through the body sense when he was in niraya. When we (the Burmese) study these 12 vipaakas we are not looking at what kind of vipaaka cittas or through which sense-door the Buddha was experiencing at the moment his past kamma ripened as vipaaka, but we are looking at "why" the Buddha had to experience such vipaakas in his last life. More importantly, it is to remind ourselves that no one can escape from the vipaaka that is produced by the past kamma, not even the Buddha even after he had attained the Buddha-hood. This is to serve as a reminder for us not to commit and accumulate akusala kammas. Respectfully, Han #105954 From: A T Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) truth_aerator Hello KenH, all, Some quotes from Dhammapada: 160. One (Atta-) truly is the protector of oneself (attano); who else could the protector be? With oneself (Attana-) fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. Atta- hi attano na-tho, ko hi na-tho paro siya-; Attana- hi sudantena, na-tham. labhati dullabham.. 161. The evil a witless man does by himself (Attana-), born of himself (attajam.) and produced by himself (attasambhavam.) , grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem. Attana- hi katam. pa-pam., attajam. attasambhavam.; Abhimatthati dummedham., vajiram. vasmamayam. man.im.. 165. By oneself (Attana-) is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another. Attana- hi katam. pa-pam., attana- sam.kilissati; Attana- akatam. pa-pam., attana-va visujjhati; Suddhi- asuddhi paccattam., na-ñño aññam. visodhaye. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html I know it is convenient and easy, but you can't blame everything on conditions. attana-va visujjhati = PURIFICATION DEPENDS ON ONESELF! Also: AN 3.61 "Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html One isn't a killer due to past action. Buddha has refuted the fatalistic teaching that all is due solely due to past conditions: "When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.'" attana-va visujjhati = purification depends on oneself. Attana- hi katam. pa-pam., attana- sam.kilissati = by oneself evil is done, by oneself is one defiled. Dhp 161. The evil a witless man does by himself (Attana-), born of himself (attajam.) and produced by himself (attasambhavam.) , It doesn't remove the personal responsibility by saying that evil is done due to past conditions, accumulations, etc. With metta, Alex #105955 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:34 pm Subject: Breath Meditation! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: How is constant Awareness Established only by Breathing? Sitting cross-legged, with straight back, elevated chin, in a silent place, the yogi remains focusing all attention on the touch point of air in his nostrils: Fully aware one inhales and fully aware one exhales... When inhaling a long breath, one notices that... When exhaling a long breath, one notices that... When inhaling a short breath, one notices that... When exhaling a short breath, one notices that... Experiencing the whole body, one inhales... Experiencing the whole body, one exhales... Calming all bodily activity, one inhales... Calming all bodily activity, one exhales... One trains thus: Experiencing joyous rapture, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing joyous rapture, I will exhale... One trains thus: Experiencing a happy pleasure, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing a happy pleasure, I will exhale... One trains thus: Experiencing all mental activity, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing all mental activity, I will exhale... One trains thus: Calming all mental activity, I will inhale... One trains thus: Calming all mental activity, I will exhale... One trains thus: Experiencing all mentality as mood, I will inhale... One trains thus: Experiencing all mentality as mood, I will exhale... One trains thus: Satisfying and gladdening the mind, I will inhale... One trains thus: Satisfying and gladdening the mind, I will exhale... One trains thus: Focusing the mind by concentration, I will inhale... One trains thus: Focusing the mind by concentration, I will exhale... One trains thus: Releasing the mind from hindrance, I will inhale... One trains thus: Releasing the mind from hindrance, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering the impermanence of change, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering the impermanence of change, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering the detachment in disillusion, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering the detachment in disillusion, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering the stilling within cessation, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering the stilling within cessation, I will exhale... One trains thus: Considering open and freed relinquishing, I will inhale... One trains thus: Considering open and freed relinquishing, I will exhale... This is how continuous Awareness is established just by breathing!!! Breathing meditation can bring the yogi into 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Jh ana... It is a unique praxis used by all Buddhas at their very Enlightenment!!! Details are found in this Meditation Manual: http://what-buddha-said.net/library/pdfs/anapanasati.pdf <..> Source: Middle Length Sayings of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya 118 Anapanasati: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ <...> #105956 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Sarah) - In a message dated 3/13/2010 5:31:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard (and Sarah), -------- <. . .> H: > . But as I read it now, I see it as a detailed description of the entire unique meditative process that culminated in transforming Gotama into the Buddha. It details a meditation that started with an investigative introspection that calmly distinguished wholesome from unwholesome qualities as they arose, that led into the calm and clarity of the four jhanas, and that then joined together that jhanic peace and heightened clarity with further direct introspective investigation resulting in the arising of liberative wisdom and final awakening. It is an amazing, detailed description! ----------- So, to put it briefly, you prefer to see the Dhamma as a self-improvement course rather than an explanation of the present, conditioned, reality. ======================================== Sure, Ken! Exactly what I said: a pop-culture self-improvement course. You have me beautifully pegged. With metta, Howard P. S. Life is too short and too serious to get caught up in nonsense. #105957 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening ashkenn2k Dear Alex > Alex:? >Is it possible to become awakening from only the 1st Jhana, or does one need to have all 4 Jhanas as N8P says? Any sutta quotes? >Maybe the disciple has attained 4th Jhana in that sphere? KO:? One good example would be MN64 where Buddha taught on the attainment of anagami.? It went through all the four jhanas, then the four arupa jhanas. >By following The Noble 7 Fold Path? What happened to the 8th, the required factor? KO: for dry insightors, even though the concentration is not the a basis, the concentration cetasikas still arise as a factor.? During the arisen of lokkuttara cittas, the strength of the concentration cetasikas is very high due to the high clarity of the dhammas similiar to jhanas where the objects if is very clear and lucid.?? For object to be clear and lucid, panna must arise.????? There are samantha and vipassana bhavana, this is taught by Buddha so there is no need to be doubful about it.? Concentration is not panna.? I know you know that?to eradicate moha, there must panna.? There is no need for concentration to be develop in order to develop panna.? There are examples of suttas where disciples of the Buddha attain enlightment without even going into jhanas. Cheers Ken O #105958 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 scottduncan2 Dear Ken O, Regarding: KO: "IMHO, there are explicit, descriptive instructions and that is consider a method. I cannot denied it. As long as one accumulations suit a subject of bhavana, the development of the samantha bhavana is possible. There must be accumulations for the person who take up the subject, just like Ven Kassapa, or many disciples who learn the 32 parts become enlighted which is described in the texts." Scott: In Visuddhimagga VIII, 48: "...Herein, the sevenfold skill in learning should be told thus: (1) as verbal recitation, (2) as mental recitation, (3) as to colour, (4) as to shape, (5) as to direction, (6) as to location, (7) as to determination..." Tenaapissa kamma.t.thaana.m kathentena sattadhaa uggahakosalla.m dasadhaa ca manasikaarakosalla.m aacikkhitabba.m Tattha vacasaa manasaa va.n.nato sa.n.thaanato disato okaasato paricchedatoti eva.m sattadhaa uggahakosalla.m aacikkhitabba.m. Scott: This refers to 'the sevenfold skill in learning' (sattadhaa uggahakosalla.m), recitation being part of it. This is ordinary, mundane learning. And so this way of learning, given the person to whom we are referring, is simply learning. In this context, 'method' or 'learning' are not all that significant as terms. How is it signifcant for you? K: "Anatta is about no exercise of control over dhammas or there is not self.Anatta is not about do or not doing. Understanding of anatta does not prevent a do because do is not done by anatta, is will by cetana. And cetana is anatta. On the other hand, I do without the accumulationa and panna, that is craving with wrong practise. This is the fine distinction we must understand." Scott: I already understand this. Why are you making such a point of highlighting 'method?' K: "Similarly, now about atta, Atta got nothing to do with choices. IMHO, choice are the result of chanda that interest or lobha that craves. Atta is miccha ditthi when accompanies chanda or lobha think there is an 'I' in I choose. That is why even though miccha ditthi is eradicated at sotapanna, there is still lobha and it is lobha that keep seeking pleasant objects and will keep choosing to have pleasurable feelings." Scott: Can you integrate the above with your point regarding 'method?' Why is 'method' important to you? Say I go about studying the Visuddhimagga text. I would be going about it methodically. This is just ordinary studying. Is it significant? Does this compare with the recitation 'method' in any way (I realize that I wouldn't be studying the Visuddhimagga to attain jhaana, but aside from that...). Sincerely, Scott. P.S. Is there any way you can keep those little diamonds with question marks in them out of your text? (I can't help having to edit them out and it takes time.) #105959 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:20 pm Subject: Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > Hello KenH, all, > > > Some quotes from Dhammapada: > > 160. One (Atta-) truly is the protector of oneself (attano); who else could the protector be? With oneself (Attana-) fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. Atta- hi attano na-tho, ko hi na-tho paro siya-; Attana- hi sudantena, na-tham. labhati dullabham.. > > 161. The evil a witless man does by himself (Attana-), born of himself (attajam.) and produced by himself (attasambhavam.) , grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem. Attana- hi katam. pa-pam., attajam. attasambhavam.; Abhimatthati dummedham., vajiram. vasmamayam. man.im.. > > 165. By oneself (Attana-) is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another. > Attana- hi katam. pa-pam., attana- sam.kilissati; Attana- akatam. pa-pam., attana-va visujjhati; Suddhi- asuddhi paccattam., na-ñño aññam. visodhaye. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html > > I know it is convenient and easy, but you can't blame everything on conditions. > > attana-va visujjhati = PURIFICATION DEPENDS ON ONESELF! > > ----------- Thanks Alex, but I am familiar with all the arguments. As a boy in church I was lectured about my eternal soul. More recently, Thanissaro devotees working undercover at DSG have tried unsuccessfully to convince me the Buddha did not teach no-self. I am impervious! :-) Ken H #105960 From: Vince Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening cerovzt@... truth_aerator wrote: > Is it possible to become awakening from only the 1st Jhana, or does > one need to have all 4 Jhanas as N8P says? Any sutta quotes? In Susima Sutta there is not doubt about the arhanthood without jhana. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.070.than.html I fear we cannot identify Jhana by associating Time and jhanas. How long time we need to claim Jhana?. 1 hour? 1 second?. Time would be a subsequent discussion. All jhanas can be achieved in a moment when attaining nibbana by panna action. However, the mastery of jhanas was appreciated by the same Budda, who was a teacher for both type of cultivators. Reference of both types of disciples exists in AN 6.46 (Cunda Sutta): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.046.than.html Reasons for the appreciation of the mastery of jhanas. it seems the mastery of jhanas causes supranormal powers and higher respect of people. Also, mastery of jhanas can be an inner island of peace and knowledge for their cultivators. "Although early Buddhism acknowledges the possibility of a dry-visioned arahatship, the attitude prevails that jhanas are still desirable attributes in an arahant. They are of value not only prior to final attainment, as a foundation for insight, but retain their value even afterwards. The value of jhana in the stage of arahatship, when all spiritual training has been completed, is twofold. One concerns the arahant's inner experience, the other his outer significance as a representative of the Buddha's dispensation." All the 6 section of this paper of Mahathera H.G. is very clarifying: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html#ch6 hope it helps best, Vince #105961 From: "ptaus1" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:35 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ptaus1 Hi Scott, KenO, > Scott: P.S. Is there any way you can keep those little diamonds with question marks in them out of your text? (I can't help having to edit them out and it takes time.) I think this has to do with character encoding (under View option in the top menu bar for most browsers) - usually my browser is set to Unicode (UTF-8) so that Pali would show properly (as most Pali fonts seem to be based on Unicode encoding). But, KenO's messages then get those question marks. So, if I change my encdoing to Western or Windows for example, the question marks in KenO's messages disappear, but then Pali doesn't show properly in other messages. Perhaps KenO you can let us know in what default character encoding you usually work when you type messages? Or maybe try typing in Unicode encoding and then we can see what will happen? Also, what's your windows version - is it perhaps non-English? I noticed that sometimes for users from countries where Windows is in a local language, encodings seem to work differently. Also, the question marks seem to show up every time there is a double space. So, I'm wondering where do the double spaces come up in your messages? Are they automatic, or do you actually prefer formatting like that? Anyway, this encoding business is messy, I've been trying to figure it out on and off for a few months, but can't really pin it down. If anyone's a font/encoding expert, please let me know if you have any ideas. Best wishes pt #105962 From: Ken O Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Scott >Scott: In Visuddhimagga VIII, 48: > >"...Herein, the sevenfold skill in learning should be told thus: (1) as verbal recitation, (2) as mental recitation, (3) as to colour, (4) as to shape, (5) as to direction, (6) as to location, (7) as to determination. .." > >Tenaapissa kamma.t.thaana. m kathentena sattadhaa uggahakosalla. m dasadhaa ca manasikaarakosalla. m aacikkhitabba. m Tattha vacasaa manasaa va.n.nato sa.n.thaanato disato okaasato paricchedatoti eva.m sattadhaa uggahakosalla. m aacikkhitabba. m. > >Scott: This refers to 'the sevenfold skill in learning' (sattadhaa uggahakosalla. m), recitation being part of it. This is ordinary, mundane learning. And so this way of learning, given the person to whom we are referring, is simply learning. In this context, 'method' or 'learning' are not all that significant as terms. How is it signifcant for you? KO:?? Lets go to VIII 50 which?I?quote to Jon Visud VIII, 50 50.? Now when he does the recitation, he should divide it up into the "skin pentad" etc and do it forwards and backwards.? After saying "Head, hair, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin", he should repeat it backwards, "Skin teeth, nail, body hairs, head hairs." Why dont you explain to me why this is not consider a method. Also para 49: "Do only this recitation for four months" - that is a an instructions clearly said by the elder >Scott: I already understand this. Why are you making such a point of highlighting 'method?' > >Scott: Can you integrate the above with your point regarding 'method?' Why is 'method' important to you? Say I go about studying the Visuddhimagga text. I would be going about it methodically. This is just ordinary studying. Is it significant? Does this compare with the recitation 'method' in any way (I realize that I wouldn't be studying the Visuddhimagga to attain jhaana, but aside from that...). KO;? because DSG like to think?method = atta.?? I am?most happy to study?Visud with you.?? thanks Ken O #105963 From: "Lukas" Date: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:13 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma series, no 1. szmicio Dear Nina, > N: Hearing the details of the Dhamma helps us to see that the > Abhidhamma points to the present reality. If one does not see this, > there cannot be any understanding of the Abhidhamma, even when we > read through all seven books. > We are reminded all the time: it is not self who sees, hears or > thinks, these are different cittas accompanied by cetasikas. They > arise each because of their own conditions. L: This is true, but this is hard to appreciate. Only few moments of appreciating this in life. Reading in short and reading in detailed way. This is vibhanga. And this kind of vibhanga can be also appreciated. Cause we dont think me there who is doing this or that. We can just simply noticed, reading in detailed way for dull person, and we can enjoying so perfect comments. You can answer your friends: "What did you do that you suffer less?" "I had opportunity to read dhamma in detailed way". The Dhamma will work. Reading is not supportive only, this is really the whole holy life. This is savaaaka ideas. They just hear Dhamma, and Dhamma worked for them. All perfect points from DSG. Best wishes Lukas #105964 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: To Connie and Alex: Apadaana nilovg Dear Han, I agree with you. We cannot possibly know in which ways, how, the Buddha experienced vipaaka. Nina. Op 13-mrt-2010, om 23:47 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > When we (the Burmese) study these 12 vipaakas we are not looking at > what kind of vipaaka cittas or through which sense-door the Buddha > was experiencing at the moment his past kamma ripened as vipaaka, > but we are looking at "why" the Buddha had to experience such > vipaakas in his last life. More importantly, it is to remind > ourselves that no one can escape from the vipaaka that is produced > by the past kamma, not even the Buddha even after he had attained > the Buddha-hood. This is to serve as a reminder for us not to > commit and accumulate akusala kammas. #105965 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 scottduncan2 Dear Ken O., Regarding: KO: "Lets go to VIII 50 which I quote to Jon Visud VIII, 50 50. Now when he does the recitation, he should divide it up into the 'skin pentad' etc and do it forwards and backwards. After saying 'Head, hair, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin', he should repeat it backwards, 'Skin teeth, nail, body hairs, head hairs.' "Why don't you explain to me why this is not consider a method." Scott: I'm saying that whether you refer to this as 'method' or as any other synonymous term, the reference is to a conventional, mundane way of learning. And beings learn all the time. 'Uggaha' is (PTS PED): "Uggaha (adj)...1. taking up, acquiring, learning...2. noticing, taking notice, perception (as opp. to manasikaara)..." Scott: For 'kosalla' there is: "Kosalla (nt.) [der. fr. kusala] proficiency. There are 3 kinds mentioned... viz. aaya[kosalla], apaaya[kosalla] and upaaya[kosalla]..." Scott: My question is, what is the aim of this method? I submit that one could substitute a method for memorizing pi to 300 digits for this one. What is the point of focusing on 'method' here? KO: "because DSG like to think method = atta." Scott: Again, people and other beings are capable of learning and carrying out sequences of actions - whether one considers that these are concepts or thinks in paramattha terms or not. There is no magical significance to a method of learning. How did you learn the Dhamma? How is it significant that this description of a way of learning is a 'method?' My copy of the Visuddhimagga has an endorsement by the ubiquitous Dalai Lama who calls it a 'wonderful meditation manual.' Do you agree with this description of the text? That it is full of methods for meditators? As for the hypothesized individual to whom the instructions are give, can we assume that pa~n~naa is in operation? Not so for Joe Blow. I could sit and memorize the list methodically as written and then go about to memorize the names of all the players in the NHL in the same fashion. Do you think, were the hypothetical man to substitute the names of NHL players for body parts that he could attain jhaana as well? How can we clarify this? If I sit down to memorize the names of the NHL players, using a method, I can do it. I can 'think' that 'I' did it, or I can 'think' that 'no one' did it, but I'd still have a memorized list of names in the end. What is this proving? I'd suggest that one might have to delve into the ways in which certain knowledge - mundane - serves as condition and for what. Sincerely, Scott. #105966 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Alex) - In a message dated 3/14/2010 1:20:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, A T wrote: > > Hello KenH, all, > > > Some quotes from Dhammapada: > > 160. One (AttÄ) truly is the protector of oneself (attano); who else could the protector be? With oneself (AttanÄ) fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. AttÄ hi attano nÄtho, ko hi nÄtho paro siyÄ; AttanÄ hi sudantena, nÄthaṃ labhati dullabhaṃ. > > 161. The evil a witless man does by himself (AttanÄ), born of himself (attajaṃ) and produced by himself (attasambhavaṃ) , grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem. AttanÄ hi kataṃ pÄpaṃ, attajaṃ attasambhavaṃ; Abhimatthati dummedhaṃ, vajiraṃ vasmamayaṃ maṇiṃ. > > 165. By oneself (AttanÄ) is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another. > AttanÄ hi kataṃ pÄpaṃ, attanÄ saṃkilissati; AttanÄ akataṃ pÄpaṃ, attanÄva visujjhati; SuddhÄ« asuddhi paccattaṃ, nÄñño aññaṃ visodhaye. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.12.budd.html > > I know it is convenient and easy, but you can't blame everything on conditions. > > attanÄva visujjhati = PURIFICATION DEPENDS ON ONESELF! > > ----------- Thanks Alex, but I am familiar with all the arguments. As a boy in church I was lectured about my eternal soul. More recently, Thanissaro devotees working undercover at DSG have tried unsuccessfully to convince me the Buddha did not teach no-self. I am impervious! :-) Ken H ===================================== I'm with you on this one, Ken, though you may well not like all that I have to say. When the Buddha speaks of "oneself" he is distinguishing between persons as we all do. When Alex says something or thinks something or "feels" something (whether vedana or resultant emotion), it is not you or I who does so, Ken - it is Alex, and the instances of kusala or akusala kamma that are yours or mine are not Alex's. In that sense, there is no problem in the Dhammapada statements of the Buddha's quoted by Alex. There is no way that these statements imply the existence of selves/souls. The Buddha is speaking of the conventional person there, and it is not deluded to distinguish oneself from others. In fact it is deluded not to. (A bit scary when one thinks of a mental patient trying to force his/her meds on you because you two "are indistinguishable," no? ;-) However, Alex, and this is a *big* however, you are entirely off the mark, IMO, when you say that "you can't blame everything on conditions." What is there to "you" or "me" or "Ken" other than conditions, physical and mental? Absolutely nothing!! Yes, because of the conditions being interrelated in specific, patterned ways, the distinctions we draw are possible. The Abhidhamma includes not only an analytic thrust (primarily the Dhammasangani), but also a synthetic thrust (the Patthana). But no matter how hard and how long we might search, no matter how detailed and how sustained our introspection, we will find nothing besides conditions. It is analogous to a cell biologist examining a shred of tissue under a microscope and finding nothing but cells functioning in concert in specific ways. (Note, though, an important aside: A molecular biologist may go further and see that the cells are amalgams as well and not self-existent realities.) With metta, Howard Emptiness /He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none — such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./ (From the Uraga Sutta) #105967 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) nilovg Hi Howard and Alex, Op 14-mrt-2010, om 14:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > However, Alex, and this is a *big* however, you are entirely off the > mark, IMO, when you say that "you can't blame everything on > conditions." > What is there to "you" or "me" or "Ken" other than conditions, > physical and > mental? Absolutely nothing!! Yes, because of the conditions being > interrelated in specific, patterned ways, the distinctions we draw > are possible. The > Abhidhamma includes not only an analytic thrust (primarily the > Dhammasangani), but also a synthetic thrust (the Patthana). But no > matter how hard and > how long we might search, no matter how detailed and how sustained our > introspection, we will find nothing besides conditions. -------- N: Howard, you state the truth about condiitons and you express this very well. Alex means something else: he thinks of making excuses for oneself: O, there are only conditions, no need for any development of kusala. I understand Alex's point of view. Nina. #105968 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Alex) - In a message dated 3/14/2010 10:02:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Alex, Op 14-mrt-2010, om 14:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > However, Alex, and this is a *big* however, you are entirely off the > mark, IMO, when you say that "you can't blame everything on > conditions." > What is there to "you" or "me" or "Ken" other than conditions, > physical and > mental? Absolutely nothing!! Yes, because of the conditions being > interrelated in specific, patterned ways, the distinctions we draw > are possible. The > Abhidhamma includes not only an analytic thrust (primarily the > Dhammasangani), but also a synthetic thrust (the Patthana). But no > matter how hard and > how long we might search, no matter how detailed and how sustained our > introspection, we will find nothing besides conditions. -------- N: Howard, you state the truth about condiitons and you express this very well. Alex means something else: he thinks of making excuses for oneself: O, there are only conditions, no need for any development of kusala. I understand Alex's point of view. ------------------------------------------------------------- Ahh, thanks, Nina. I missed that. My apologies to Alex. ------------------------------------------------------------- Nina ============================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #105969 From: Ken O Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Scott >Scott: I'm saying that whether you refer to this as 'method' or as any other synonymous term, the reference is to a conventional, mundane way of learning. And beings learn all the time. 'Uggaha' is (PTS PED): > >"Uggaha (adj)...1. taking up, acquiring, learning...2. noticing, taking notice, perception (as opp. to manasikaara) ..." > >Scott: For 'kosalla' there is: > >"Kosalla (nt.) [der. fr. kusala] proficiency. There are 3 kinds mentioned... viz. aaya[kosalla] , apaaya[kosalla] and upaaya[kosalla] ..." > >Scott: My question is, what is the aim of this method? I submit that one could substitute a method for memorizing pi to 300 digits for this one. What is the point of focusing on 'method' here? KO:? Whether it is a mundane way or not, it does not matter, all development must start from mundane.??Lets ascertain is this a method.? All aims must be enlightment, Visud have examples of people develop the methods and attain enlightment.?? On that same paragraph, Visud VIII, 49. <<'Do only this recitation for four months'.? Although they were familiar respectively with two and three Pitakas, it was only at the end of four months of recitation of the meditation subject that they became stream-enterers, with the right apprehension [of the text].? So the teacher who expounds the meditation subject should tell the pupil to do the recitation verbally first>>? >Scott: Again, people and other beings are capable of learning and carrying out sequences of actions - whether one considers that these are concepts or thinks in paramattha terms or not. There is no magical significance to a method of learning. How did you learn the Dhamma? How is it significant that this description of a way of learning is a 'method?' My copy of the Visuddhimagga has an endorsement by the ubiquitous Dalai Lama who calls it a 'wonderful meditation manual.' Do you agree with this description of the text? That it is full of methods for meditators? > KO:? Definitely there is no?magical?method of learning, all development must start with panna be it?samantha or vipassana.? To think that one could just pick up a kasina object and mediate on it, it is not according the Visud.???? Whether it is a full meditation methods or not, it is written?clearly?in the text, there is no need for me to explain it.? The text explains itself.?? That is why it is meant as path of purification, and not path of meditation and not path of vipassana.? It meants to cover the different approaches to the one path.? >As for the hypothesized individual to whom the instructions are give, can we assume that pa~n~naa is in operation? Not so for Joe Blow. I could sit and memorize the list methodically as written and then go about to memorize the names of all the players in the NHL in the same fashion. Do you think, were the hypothetical man to substitute the names of NHL players for body parts that he could attain jhaana as well? > KO:??You, Joe Blow or me may not be able to do it,? Visud is very clear on the criteria.?It is described clearly?and there?are such people and not hypothetical.?? So there is no need to be?hypothetical about it.? >How can we clarify this? If I sit down to memorize the names of the NHL players, using a method, I can do it. I can 'think' that 'I' did it, or I can 'think' that 'no one' did it, but I'd still have a memorized list of names in the end. What is this proving? KO:? It depends on accumulations and panna.??Some people could do that?and attain enlightement after understanding?such memorisation and that memorisation?condition the growth of insight (as describe example above).? As?DSG always said, anything can be a condition for insight, why not memorisation.? Why should there be an I in memorisation.?I?only happen when there is?an atta view.?There?be faith or confidence in the Buddha during memorisation.?? Is it because we think that there must be a atta, that is your thinking and not the text.? There is no need for me to prove it because the text has?examples. The text proves itself and the text are consistent with?suttas and other Abhidhamma texts. Cheers Ken O #105970 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening truth_aerator Dear Vince, all, As Bhikkhu Bodhi, and others say, Susima sutta does NOT refute Jhana. It only claims that awakening can be without ARUPPA and abhinna powers. That is all. Aruppa states and super powers are not part of N8P. Jhana are. Also MN64 does unequivocally state that Jhana is required for destruction of 5 lower fetters. Also Dhp 372 quote (no nibbana without panna & jhana) As to 1second Jhana. It may have been possible for some, such as Bahiya, to be Awakened in few minutes. But the more important question, is it *sufficient* for *us*? With metta, Alex --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > truth_aerator wrote: > > > Is it possible to become awakening from only the 1st Jhana, or does > > one need to have all 4 Jhanas as N8P says? Any sutta quotes? > > In Susima Sutta there is not doubt about the arhanthood without jhana. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.070.than.html > > I fear we cannot identify Jhana by associating Time and jhanas. > How long time we need to claim Jhana?. 1 hour? 1 second?. > Time would be a subsequent discussion. All jhanas can be achieved > in a moment when attaining nibbana by panna action. > > However, the mastery of jhanas was appreciated by the same Budda, > who was a teacher for both type of cultivators. Reference of both > types of disciples exists in AN 6.46 (Cunda Sutta): > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.046.than.html > > Reasons for the appreciation of the mastery of jhanas. it seems the > mastery of jhanas causes supranormal powers and higher respect of > people. Also, mastery of jhanas can be an inner island of peace and > knowledge for their cultivators. > > "Although early Buddhism acknowledges the possibility of a dry-visioned > arahatship, the attitude prevails that jhanas are still desirable > attributes in an arahant. They are of value not only prior to final > attainment, as a foundation for insight, but retain their value even > afterwards. The value of jhana in the stage of arahatship, when all > spiritual training has been completed, is twofold. One concerns the > arahant's inner experience, the other his outer significance as a > representative of the Buddha's dispensation." > > All the 6 section of this paper of Mahathera H.G. is very clarifying: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html#ch6 > > > hope it helps > > > best, > > Vince > #105971 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:14 am Subject: "luminous nature" and Wrong Views farrellkevin80 Some of the wrong views I fell into are touched on here (Discussions in Bangkok (at the Foundation) in 2005 on29 March, morning session:(3) ) by the participants including Ajahn, Sukin, and Vince, (and I'm not sure who else participated) where they talk about the "luminosity" of vinana or consciousness. Alot of these later schools, especially vajrayana talk about the luminous and empty nature of vinana. They don't posit that it is a self, but they think that understanding the luminous and "empty" nature of vinana is the path. Kevin #105972 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:44 am Subject: Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Alex) - > There is no way that these statements imply the existence of >selves/souls. You are right. I didn't mean otherwise. The Buddha is speaking of the conventional person there, and it is not deluded to distinguish > oneself from others. In fact it is deluded not to. (A bit scary when one thinks > of a mental patient trying to force his/her meds on you because you two > "are indistinguishable," no? ;-) > However, Alex, and this is a *big* however, you are entirely >off the mark, IMO, when you say that "you can't blame everything >on conditions." Are you saying, Howard, that one kills steals and tortures solely due to past conditions? Kamma is not pre-determined. There is no fatalism in "I had to kill..." It originates within oneself (attasambhavam). BTW, Abhidhamma Pitaka does have a book called Puggalapannati and mentions the word ~818 times. With metta, Alex #105973 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 3/14/2010 12:53:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Alex) - > There is no way that these statements imply the existence of >selves/souls. You are right. I didn't mean otherwise. The Buddha is speaking of the conventional person there, and it is not deluded to distinguish > oneself from others. In fact it is deluded not to. (A bit scary when one thinks > of a mental patient trying to force his/her meds on you because you two > "are indistinguishable," no? ;-) > However, Alex, and this is a *big* however, you are entirely >off the mark, IMO, when you say that "you can't blame everything >on conditions." Are you saying, Howard, that one kills steals and tortures solely due to past conditions? ------------------------------------------------------- Whatever conditions arise now do not do so randomly, but due to prior conditions. What else? (Of course, all sankhata dhammas serve as "conditions," not only intentions and intentional actions. I'm not asserting that one's kamma is all-determining!) ------------------------------------------------------ Kamma is not pre-determined. There is no fatalism in "I had to kill..." It originates within oneself (attasambhavam). -------------------------------------------------- ALL dhammas other than nibbana arise lawfully as the result of conditions and not without cause. That includes all kamma/cetana. The theory that kamma originates within itself is a self-causation theory and contrary to the Dhamma. The only dhamma that is uncaused and unconditioned is nibbana. It does not arise in dependence on conditions, because it does not arise at all. Neither arising nor ceasing is nibbana. ------------------------------------------------- BTW, Abhidhamma Pitaka does have a book called Puggalapannati and mentions the word ~818 times. ------------------------------------------------ If it means what you say, I would consider that a reason for rejecting those parts of the Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ========================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #105974 From: Vince Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening cerovzt@... Dear Alex, > As Bhikkhu Bodhi, and others say, > Susima sutta does NOT refute Jhana. It only claims that awakening > can be without ARUPPA and abhinna powers. That is all. maybe I don't express myself clearly. I try to say the question is about understanding the nature of Jhanas. Jhana means absorption. One thing is mastering Jhanas, then somebody can be stabilized in Jhanas to progress using them. Another different thing is talking about the Jhanas existence or not in a person who don't cultivate this. Somebody can realize nibbana without cultivating Jhanas, and then all Jhanas will be progressed very quickly, in a instant. Later, he cannot identify the appearance of Jhanas but it is just because experience of Time was working different. Maybe this simile can be right: one person uses an elevator to go up until the 5th floor, and then obviously he will pass across 4 floors. Another person also goes until 5 floor but he will stop in every floor. These powers and benefits are recollected in every floor, so the first person lacks of them. The Jhana cultivation add the difference of knowing what happens in every floor. Therefore, a Jhana master knows better what happens in these levels. But regarding truth and cease, there is not difference. Both type of persons arrive to the last floor in where they can see the whole building. > Aruppa states and super powers are not part of N8P. Jhana are. > Also MN64 does unequivocally state that Jhana is required for > destruction of 5 lower fetters. but it will depends of the Time expression in what we understand are Jhana. > Also Dhp 372 quote (no nibbana without panna & jhana) it doesn't mean one should be stabilized in the experience of some Jhana. Jhana means absorption. If we add requirements of time and expression, it is just our own addition. When there is a sudden access into the truth the person will experience different things very quickly, and later he cannot identify all them and separating them one-by-one. However, the jhana cultivator probably can do this. But the awakening always is by panna not jhana. Elevator is what take us to the last floor, not floors in themselves. > As to 1second Jhana. It may have been possible for some, such as > Bahiya, to be Awakened in few minutes. But the more important > question, is it *sufficient* for *us*? "sufficient" doesn't have sense because there is only one nibbana, not two. Goal of Dhamma is not to be in an static bliss but in the eradication of differences between a pure and impure world. Buddhism is the only teaching of this world to get salvation among the phenomenic world. Goal of Buddha teaching is not a mysticism. Remember Buddha leave his last master despite he praised him. Whether the person is awakened using the jhana or panna cultivation, the progress is measured according the leaving of ignorance. There is a direct or a gradual cultivation but magga (the way) always is about leaving of ignorance. Well, at least I understand in this way, best Vince #105975 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:18 am Subject: Will, and ultimate vs conventional teaching. truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 3/14/2010 12:53:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Hello Howard, all, > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Ken (and Alex) - > > There is no way that these statements imply the existence of > >selves/souls. > > You are right. I didn't mean otherwise. > > > The Buddha is speaking of the conventional person there, and it is not > deluded to distinguish > > oneself from others. In fact it is deluded not to. (A bit scary when > one thinks > > of a mental patient trying to force his/her meds on you because you two > > "are indistinguishable," no? ;-) > > However, Alex, and this is a *big* however, you are entirely >off the > mark, IMO, when you say that "you can't blame everything >on > conditions." > > > Are you saying, Howard, that one kills steals and tortures solely >due to past conditions? > ------------------------------------------------------- >H: Whatever conditions arise now do not do so randomly, but due to >prior conditions. What else? (Of course, all sankhata dhammas serve >as "conditions," not only intentions and intentional actions. I'm >not asserting that one's kamma is all-determining!) > ------------------------------------------------------ At any given moment where choice is made, there are multiple things happening: a) What one wills now (Kamma) b) results of past volition (vipaka) c) current int/ext physical factors Surely there is no control in the same of cartoonish view of "let me grow wings now and fly to the moon!". But who believes really believes in that sort of control? Even non-Buddhists would reject that sort of idea of control. But there are some thing that can be willed. For example to indulge in bad thoughts or to cut down arisen bad thoughts. One doesn't murder someone because conditions a billion years ago made him do it. Sure conditions (b,c) can set "supportive" causes that makes it easier to succumb to them, but it doesn't predetermine killing, etc. > > BTW, Abhidhamma Pitaka does have a book called Puggalapannati and mentions > the word ~818 times. > ------------------------------------------------ >If it means what you say, I would consider that a reason for >rejecting those parts of the Abhidhamma. > ---------------------------------------------- I've just did an e-search. The Puggalapannati book contains 988 references to puggal* In Abhidhamma Pitaka the word is used 3,100+ times. Yamaka-2 has 807 reference to types of puggalo. But it is not just that. Word paramatth* is used only 48 times in Katthavathu. It is not used anywhere else in the canonical Abh. sammutisacc* = is used only two in entire Abh. In Katthabatthu as well. permutations of sammut* are used only 20 times in entire Abh. 16 in Katthavatthu and 4 in Vibhanga (sammutinanam and sammutideva). ======= On ultimate vs conventional teachings: The commentary states: Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-katha, whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-katha. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-katha. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-katha. To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-katha , the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-katha, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-katha, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-katha. There is this simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-katha. It is by taking into consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena. AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55 http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf So according to AA, one way of teaching is not superior to another! Whatever works, works! With metta, Alex #105976 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Part 2 : Jhanas -> 4 stages of Awakening truth_aerator Dear Vince, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Vince wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > > As Bhikkhu Bodhi, and others say, > > Susima sutta does NOT refute Jhana. It only claims that awakening > > can be without ARUPPA and abhinna powers. That is all. > > maybe I don't express myself clearly. I try to say the question is > about understanding the nature of Jhanas. Jhana means absorption. Yes. Jhana and all things must be understood, where understanding being the cessation of all craving & ignorance and whatever other unwholesome mental states there are. > One thing is mastering Jhanas, then somebody can be stabilized in > Jhanas to progress using them. Another different thing is talking > about the Jhanas existence or not in a person who don't cultivate >this. > Somebody can realize nibbana without cultivating Jhanas, By following the Noble 7Fold vehicle? I agree with KenO that there is possibility that some people achieve split-second jhana during or close to maggaphala moment. However, the more Jhana one does, the more defliments are suppressed. Why I believe in importance of Jhanas? a) As a concentration of wholesome mental states b)Jhana helps for wisdom to see anicca, dukkha, anatta. One of the reasons why a person cannot awaken right now (or when listening to a good discource) is due to present hindrances that are present. Jhana can help to clear away the hindrances, which hinder wisdom AN5.51 Of course some people who have naturally less hindrances, may need much less Samatha. Maybe a split second will do. Ven. Bahiya, Ven. Sariputta, Ven. Mogallana and many others have been Ascetics (and had suppressed some hindrances quite will), so that base was covered. It is not a case for many of us. Stronger the hindrances, the stronger the appropriate antidote needed. "Sensual desire is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. Ill will... Sloth & drowsiness... Restlessness & anxiety... Uncertainty is an obstacle, a hindrance that overwhelms awareness and weakens discernment. These are the five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment. And when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible. "Now, when a monk has abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is strong in discernment: for him to understand what is for his own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is possible. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.051.than.html With metta, Alex #105977 From: si-la-nanda Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:10 am Subject: REACHING THE GOODNESS WITHIN by AJAHN UTHAI SIRIDHARO silananda_t *REACHING THE GOODNESS WITHIN* ** ... *Just as trees cannot sustain themselves without soil, nor buildings stand without being supported by a foundation, all the goodness **in the world cannot manifest without a sense of* *goodness and well-being within the heart .*.. *... To understand the Dhamma with clarity, you need to practice appropriately. As you train yourselves to rest in goodness and a sense of well-being within, remaining mindful like this continuously, you will be able to see your heart become luminous, bright and shining ... * *... The truth is that we have experienced bodily discomfort every now and then since the day we were born. There is no way the body can escape from the invasion of discomfort. The stiffness, fatigue or aching we are feeling in meditation right now is still tolerable. When we think about the excruciating pain suffered by aged or seriously-ill people, now, that's really pitiful, too much to bear! If you contemplate this in an intelligent manner, you will train yourselves beforehand, preparing yourselves for any situation where you have no choice but to cope with excruciating pain ... * ... *you abide taking good qualities of the heart as your principles, upholding the Buddha's teachings as the vehicle for conveying you to the end of suffering - the problem of suffering can be solved, and its remedy starts working right from the moment when you first resist the urge to think, instead of obeying the commands of greed, hatred and delusion .*.. ... The Buddha warned that, as long as our hearts are not free from *defilements, *we should not trust our thoughts... *... Do not think that it doesn't matter whether you commit wrong-doing if no one else knows what you have done. Don't entertain such a thought. Whatever evil you have done, be it significant or trivial, it won't be able to slip away from your awareness ... * ** *? *The Buddha taught that the training of one's mind should be anchored in *concentration *or *Jhana, *which is nothing but a matter of focusing the mind. If you don't discipline yourself, creating the causes and conditions for your mind to become settled and still, there is no way you can cut through the flow of wandering thoughts *? * ** by *VENERABLE *AJAHN *UTHAI SIRIDHARO * ** *Extracts from **REACHING THE GOODNESS WITHIN * #105978 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Will, and ultimate vs conventional teaching. upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 3/14/2010 2:25:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hello Howard, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 3/14/2010 12:53:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Hello Howard, all, > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Ken (and Alex) - > > There is no way that these statements imply the existence of > >selves/souls. > > You are right. I didn't mean otherwise. > > > The Buddha is speaking of the conventional person there, and it is not > deluded to distinguish > > oneself from others. In fact it is deluded not to. (A bit scary when > one thinks > > of a mental patient trying to force his/her meds on you because you two > > "are indistinguishable," no? ;-) > > However, Alex, and this is a *big* however, you are entirely >off the > mark, IMO, when you say that "you can't blame everything >on > conditions." > > > Are you saying, Howard, that one kills steals and tortures solely >due to past conditions? > ------------------------------------------------------- >H: Whatever conditions arise now do not do so randomly, but due to >prior conditions. What else? (Of course, all sankhata dhammas serve >as "conditions," not only intentions and intentional actions. I'm >not asserting that one's kamma is all-determining!) > ------------------------------------------------------ At any given moment where choice is made, there are multiple things happening: a) What one wills now (Kamma) b) results of past volition (vipaka) c) current int/ext physical factors Surely there is no control in the same of cartoonish view of "let me grow wings now and fly to the moon!". But who believes really believes in that sort of control? Even non-Buddhists would reject that sort of idea of control. But there are some thing that can be willed. For example to indulge in bad thoughts or to cut down arisen bad thoughts. ------------------------------------------------------ I do not deny decision processes and willing. I'd have to be blind to deny them. What I deny, however, is the notion that they occur unconditioned. ----------------------------------------------------- One doesn't murder someone because conditions a billion years ago made him do it. Sure conditions (b,c) can set "supportive" causes that makes it easier to succumb to them, but it doesn't predetermine killing, etc. ------------------------------------------------------- The conditions are from billions of years ago and from milliseconds ago, but nothing happens unconditioned. To make you feel better about this, and speaking in macroscopic terms, consider the following example: We reach out for a piece of cake, because we will the action. We will the action because our arm works and the cake is within arm's reach. Our arm works for billions of reasons, including our having been born! ;-) The cake is present and within arm's reach due to billions of conditions. We will the reaching out, because we want the cake and reaching out will enable our acquiring it. We want it because of physical hunger and our inclination to enjoy cake. And so on and so forth, including an immeasurable number, actually an infinite number, of unmentioned conditions. --------------------------------------------------------- > > BTW, Abhidhamma Pitaka does have a book called Puggalapannati and mentions > the word ~818 times. > ------------------------------------------------ >If it means what you say, I would consider that a reason for >rejecting those parts of the Abhidhamma. > ---------------------------------------------- I've just did an e-search. The Puggalapannati book contains 988 references to puggal* ---------------------------------------------------- Okay. ------------------------------------------------ In Abhidhamma Pitaka the word is used 3,100+ times. Yamaka-2 has 807 reference to types of puggalo. ---------------------------------------------------- Uh, huh. --------------------------------------------------- But it is not just that. Word paramatth* is used only 48 times in Katthavathu. It is not used anywhere else in the canonical Abh. sammutisacc* = is used only two in entire Abh. In Katthabatthu as well. permutations of sammut* are used only 20 times in entire Abh. 16 in Katthavatthu and 4 in Vibhanga (sammutinanam and sammutideva). ======= On ultimate vs conventional teachings: The commentary states: Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-katha, whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-katha. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-katha. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-katha. To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-katha , the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-katha, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-katha, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-katha. --------------------------------------------------- I'm missing the relevance of this to the matter of alleged self-caused willing. ------------------------------------------------ There is this simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-katha. It is by taking into consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena. AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55 http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf So according to AA, one way of teaching is not superior to another! Whatever works, works! --------------------------------------------------- Relevance??? --------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ============================== With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /"Nothing comes from nothing. Nothing ever could."/ (From "The Sound of Music") #105979 From: "colette" Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:21 am Subject: Re: "luminous nature" and Wrong Views ksheri3 Good Morning Kevin, "Knowing the path and walking the path are two different things" Morpheus in THE MATRIX. If I may, while the average person can read the words in a sentence and a book they often fail to extend those words to their existance. Their existance is the same existance as another person's existance, maybe it's possible for the average person to see themselves in some other person but do they ever see another person inside themselves? It has to "flow" both ways in order for the concept to be grasped. In the U.S.A. it is common practice if not mandatory practice, for all students in a class to discuss the questions of any/all tests and reach a standard answer for the entire class. Fine, this is just an example of "knowing" the material. The material does not exist outside of the sentence(s) and/or book(s). The material is only a hypothetical. Take, for instance, THE REIGN OF TERROR which consumed a good portion of the French population. The actions, the behaviors, of the people became nothing more than robotics consumed by the gifts of THE NATIONAL RAZOR, Robspierre's points were lost, consumed, by the mania that gave satisfaction to the few holders of existance. Not long after the begining the methodology became routine but the addiction was real, not even cognized. The routine behavior became their own downfall since they consumed as many people that could possibly have been consumed until the only people left to consume were the originators of the behavior i.e. a plague feeding upon itself until there is nothing left to feed upon. Do not look for the alleged "luminosity" of a thing, look for the thing itself, THEN decide if it is luminous or not. "You're empty." Agent Smith. "So are you" Mr. Andersen aka N.E.O. (near earth object) THE MATRIX. Once you find an alleged "thing" and have decided that it has a value then you can decide about it's longevity, ability to withstand the ravages of existance. Is it temporal? Is it transient? Does it qualify as a "relative" existance or an "ULTIMATE" existance? Does the answer to the question that the group has agreed upon in a test actually have the ability to withstand existance OUTSIDE of the group's minute span of existant reality. Isn't it more wise to understand the thing itself so that you can experience the truth that the thing only exists in your mind before galavanting around the neighborhood as if in control of the hallucination? Vajrayana? That's Tibetan and not of the Southern schools which are found in most, if not all, THERAVADAN schools. Vajrayana, like the Yogachara, is a hybrid and a specialty of Buddhism. BTW, I don't speak for any other person nor any group, I speak from my own experience and practice(s). The northern and/or Tibetan schools of Buddhist philosophy are very exciting but the foundation of all Buddhism can be most easily grasped in the Theravadan philosophy. go for it man, just don't go trying to find this hallucination called "luminosity" if you cannot see the thing that you're trying to define as being luminous or not. good luck. Maybe I should look into these "discusions in Bangkok..." to see what they may offer. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Farrell wrote: > > Some of the wrong views I fell into are touched on here (Discussions in Bangkok (at the Foundation) in 2005 on29 March, > morning session:(3) ) by the participants including Ajahn, Sukin, and Vince, (and I'm not sure who else participated) where they talk about the "luminosity" of vinana or consciousness. Alot of these later schools, especially vajrayana talk about the luminous and empty nature of vinana. They don't posit that it is a self, but they think that understanding the luminous and "empty" nature of vinana is the path. > > Kevin > #105980 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "luminous nature" and Wrong Views farrellkevin80 Hello Colette. Thank you for your kind comments. I appreciate them. I am not sure if you understood my message or not though, because you sound as if you are advising me about this and to "go for it" if that is how I feel but to remember that one cannot speculate about an object until one actually knows that object (I think you are pointing to the fact that this view is just conceptual proliferation). I in fact don't follow Mahayana anymore. I followed Theravada for a while, and listened to Ajahn Sujin about dhammas and developed some understanding. Then, however, I fell into some wrong views and believed in Mahayana. I no longer ascribe to those views. I think they are just conceptual proliferation-- deceptive conceptual proliferation. Thanks, Kevin ________________________________ Colette: "Good Morning Kevin, "Knowing the path and walking the path are two different things" Morpheus in THE MATRIX..." #105981 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:58 pm Subject: Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) kenhowardau Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > <. . > > Sure, Ken! Exactly what I said: a pop-culture self-improvement course. > You have me beautifully pegged. ------------------ Point taken. But the fact remains that ditthi (understanding of ultimate reality) is either right ditthi or wrong ditthi. It can't be neither, and it can't be both. It seems to me that wrong understanding of the Dhamma can be "so near and yet so far." It can be near when expressed in the same words as the suttas, and yet, if it is not right, it is as far off as one of those Scientology views. Maybe even farther! L Ron Hubbard at least knew he was just a manipulative science fiction writer. To that extent he was not deceiving himself. (?) Ken H #105982 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Will, and ultimate vs conventional teaching. truth_aerator Hi Howard, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex - > > In a message dated 3/14/2010 2:25:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Hello Howard, all, > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Alex - > > > > In a message dated 3/14/2010 12:53:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > truth_aerator@ writes: > > > > Hello Howard, all, > > > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Ken (and Alex) - > > > There is no way that these statements imply the existence of > > >selves/souls. > > > > You are right. I didn't mean otherwise. > > > > > > The Buddha is speaking of the conventional person there, and it is > not > > deluded to distinguish > > > oneself from others. In fact it is deluded not to. (A bit scary when > > one thinks > > > of a mental patient trying to force his/her meds on you because you > two > > > "are indistinguishable," no? ;-) > > > However, Alex, and this is a *big* however, you are entirely >off > the > > mark, IMO, when you say that "you can't blame everything >on > > conditions." > > > > > > Are you saying, Howard, that one kills steals and tortures solely >due > to past conditions? > > ------------------------------------------------------- > >H: Whatever conditions arise now do not do so randomly, but due to > >prior conditions. What else? (Of course, all sankhata dhammas serve >as > "conditions," not only intentions and intentional actions. I'm >not asserting > that one's kamma is all-determining!) > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > At any given moment where choice is made, there are multiple things > happening: > > a) What one wills now (Kamma) > b) results of past volition (vipaka) > c) current int/ext physical factors > > Surely there is no control in the same of cartoonish view of "let me grow > wings now and fly to the moon!". But who believes really believes in that > sort of control? Even non-Buddhists would reject that sort of idea of > control. > > But there are some thing that can be willed. For example to indulge in bad > thoughts or to cut down arisen bad thoughts. > ------------------------------------------------------ > I do not deny decision processes and willing. I'd have to be blind to > deny them. What I deny, however, is the notion that they occur > unconditioned. > ----------------------------------------------------- The volition is conditioned. But it was not predestined billions of years ago. Some of the conditions for intention & go getting the cake to eat are because: one likes to eat cakes, the cake is within range, etc etc, and *one has decided* to do it. On "will" Another example: You can make a decision to look to the right, look to the left, look up, look down, move this finger, move that finger, etc. I hope you are not trying to say that all this was predetermined (even billion of years ago) and bound to happen. One isn't predestined to shoot and kill someone. Even if one is forced to shoot or face torture, even then one doesn't have to pull the trigger. The situation is terrible, but there is no fatalistic predestination to pull the trigger or not. On Ultimate Vs Conventional teaching. Since both are right, it is possible to say that a person (NOT A SELF!) chose to kill or to abstain from killing. Post factum, using "ultimate analysis", it may be possible to justify either decision, but it is kamma that wills at that time. IMHO. With metta, Alex #105983 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/14/2010 5:01:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > <. . > > Sure, Ken! Exactly what I said: a pop-culture self-improvement course. > You have me beautifully pegged. ------------------ Point taken. But the fact remains that ditthi (understanding of ultimate reality) is either right ditthi or wrong ditthi. It can't be neither, and it can't be both. -------------------------------------------------------- There are views opposite views , though, that are both wrong. ;-) Essentialism and annihilationism, for example. --------------------------------------------------- It seems to me that wrong understanding of the Dhamma can be "so near and yet so far." It can be near when expressed in the same words as the suttas, and yet, if it is not right, it is as far off as one of those Scientology views. -------------------------------------------------- Yes, I agree, Ken. I don't claim to KNOW what is the right understanding. I have my beliefs and you have yours, and we could both be way off base! I do think there is some virtue in knowing that one doesn't know for sure when in fact one doesn't know for sure. ;-) ------------------------------------------------ Maybe even farther! L Ron Hubbard at least knew he was just a manipulative science fiction writer. To that extent he was not deceiving himself. (?) Ken H ============================= With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #105984 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Will, and ultimate vs conventional teaching. upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 3/14/2010 5:23:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: On "will" Another example: You can make a decision to look to the right, look to the left, look up, look down, move this finger, move that finger, etc. I hope you are not trying to say that all this was predetermined (even billion of years ago) and bound to happen. ----------------------------------------------------- All that I am saying is that something occurs when and only when all the requisite conditions for it have occurred. I leave the philosophical and practical implications of that for you or others to consider. ----------------------------------------------------- =================================== With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #105985 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:38 pm Subject: Not Examining! bhikkhu.sama... Friends: Not Examining causes Assumption to arise: The wanderer Vacchagotta approached the Blessed One and greeted him. Concluding their compliments, he sat down aside and asked the Buddha: Master Gotama, what is the cause, condition and reason, why these various speculative views arise in the world: This Universe is eternal, or the universe is not eternal. This universe is finite, or infinite. Vitality and the body are the same, or biological life, metabolism is one thing, the body is another. The Tathagata exists after death, or he does not exist after death. The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death. Or finally: The Tathagata neither exists, nor does not exist after death? The Blessed Buddha replied: It is, Vaccha, because of neither knowing form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor mental construction, nor consciousness, nor the cause of origin of form, feeling, perception, mental construction, and consciousness, nor the cause of ceasing of form, feeling, perception, construction, and consciousness, nor the way to cease form, feeling, perception, construction, & consciousness that these various speculative views, such as: "This Universe is eternal, finite etc. " arise in the world! This ignorance, this not seeing, blindness, this not understanding, this not fully knowing, this not breaking through, this not comprehending, this not penetrating, this not discerning, this not discriminating, this not differentiating, this not closely investigating, this not directly experiencing and realizing, friend Vaccha, is the cause, and is the reason, why those various speculative views arise in this world! <...> Source: The Grouped Sayings by the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book III 257-263 The Vacchagotta section 33. Thread on Not Knowing: A??ana Sutta (1-55) http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Have a nice & noble day! Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita _/\_ Sri <...> #105986 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:32 pm Subject: Re: Will, and ultimate vs conventional teaching. szmicio Dear Howard and Alex, > On "will" > Another example: You can make a decision to look to the right, look to the > left, look up, look down, move this finger, move that finger, etc. I hope > you are not trying to say that all this was predetermined (even billion of > years ago) and bound to happen. L: Alex, you cannont budge your hand even for a slice. There needs to be a proper conditions You cannot move your leg or finger or anything. This happens because of conditions not because YOU induced that. Ignorance makes us belive that happens, that is why that was explained that moha causes sankhara sankhara causes vinnyana and this all causes all misery. The end of misery, nibbana is not saomethin you achive. This is something that is happening when ignorance is gone.This is the end of moha. When I am going for a trip. I see how those different moments arises and how they are very conditioned. I plan to go to see that place or that, and I know this is a few fleeting moments of thinking an dchoosing. I never dont know where exactly I will go. This what will be choosen is conditioned, this is not you who choose anything. All your movements are conditioned, smile, minds of 'choosing', different 'wills'. Taking it for a Self is conditioned. vacisankharas that speaks are conditioned, siila is conditioned. You really needs to have more braveness. > ----------------------------------------------------- > All that I am saying is that something occurs when and only when all > the requisite conditions for it have occurred. I leave the philosophical and > practical implications of that for you or others to consider. > ----------------------------------------------------- L: What's happend to you Howard??? When did you change your views ;>? Best wishes Lukas #105987 From: "Lukas" Date: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:56 pm Subject: My siila issues szmicio Hi friends, My siila is very weak. But what can I do? For so many years I couldnt get perfect siila. I tried so much. But actually the only moments of siila I've got is when I read Dhamma, when I see you, that you have so good siila. I saw a guy who was beating his wife. And the only thing I thought was metta. I know this is so much conditioned. I could not say to him: stop beating your wife, cause he will only get anger. But he can learn from the very beginning the right understanding. understanding that all is conditioned. Best wishes Lukas #105988 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:25 am Subject: Abhidhamma Series, no 2. Paramattha dhamma and pa~n~natti. nilovg > Dear friends, > Paramattha dhamma and pa~n~natti. > > Through the Buddhist teachings we learn that what we take for > ?self?, for ?our mind? and for ?our body?, consists of changing > phenomena. That part of the Buddhist teachings which is the > ?Abhidhamma? enumerates and classifies all phenomena of our life: > mental phenomena or n?ma and physical phenomena or r?pa. Seeing is > n?ma, it experiences visible object through the eye-door. Visible > object or colour is r?pa, it does not experience anything. The > eyesense, that functions as the eye-door through which visible > object is experienced, is also r?pa. The r?pas that are sense > objects, namely, visible object, sound, smell, flavour and tangible > object, and also the r?pas that are the sense organs of eyes, ears, > nose, tongue and bodysense, are conditions for the n?mas to > experience objects. N?ma and r?pa are interrelated. > > N?ma and r?pa are ultimate realities. We should know the difference > between ultimate truth ultimate truth, paramattha sacca, and > conventional truth, sammuttisacca. > Ultimate truth is not abstract. Ultimate realities, in P?li: > paramattha dhammas, have each their own characteristic which cannot > be changed. We may change the name, but the characteristic remains > the same. Seeing is an ultimate reality, it experiences visible > object which appears through the eyes; it is real for everyone, it > has its own unalterable characteristic. Anger has its own > characteristic, it is real for everyone, no matter how we name it. > Ultimate realities can be directly experienced when they appear > through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. They arise > because of their appropriate conditions. > Conventional truth is the world of concepts such as person, tree or > animal. Before we learnt about Buddhism, conventional truth, the > world of concepts, was the only truth we knew. It is useful to > examine the meaning of concept, in P?li: pa??atti. The word concept > can stand for the name or term that conveys an idea and it can also > stand for the idea itself conveyed by a term. Thus, the name ?tree? > is a concept, and also the idea we form up of ?tree? is a concept. > We can think of concepts, but they are not realities that can be > directly experienced, without having to name them. > ------------- > > Nina. #105989 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:41 am Subject: Re: Bangkok discussions with A.Sujin February 2010 (1) kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Alex), ----------------- H: > I'm with you on this one, Ken, though you may well not like all that I have to say. When the Buddha speaks of "oneself" he is distinguishing between persons as we all do. When Alex says something or thinks something or "feels" something (whether vedana or resultant emotion), it is not you or I who does so, Ken - it is Alex, and the instances of kusala or akusala kamma that are yours or mine are not Alex's. In that sense, there is no problem in the Dhammapada statements of the Buddha's quoted by Alex. ------------------ I don't want to go off on a sidetrack, but this is an area I've had trouble with in the past. Even some of my fellow co-controllers think I go too far when I say that *every* word of the Dhamma is to be understood in terms of satipatthana. In satipatthana, there is no you or Alex or I etc. And so the conventional meaning of those Dhammapada quotes has no relevance to my (possibly slightly extremist) way of thinking. --------------------------- H: > There is no way that these statements imply the existence of selves/souls. -------------------------- Agreed. ------------------------------ H: > The Buddha is speaking of the conventional person there, ------------------------------ You see, this is where I can't agree. I say the Buddha was never speaking about the conventional person. (There *is no* conventional person!) That includes even those suttas that use the most conventional language possible - for example, where the Buddha is discussing whether a monk should eat after midday, or how he should clean his teeth. Even then, the Buddha is really talking about the five khandhas, not people and teeth. -------------------------------- H: > and it is not deluded to distinguish oneself from others. ------------------------------- True, it is not necessarily deluded. But it is not satipatthana either. ---------------------------------- H: > In fact it is deluded not to. (A bit scary when one thinks of a mental patient trying to force his/her meds on you because you two "are indistinguishable," no? ;-) ----------------------------------- Agreed: that would necessarily be delusional. ------------------------------------------------- H: > However, Alex, and this is a *big* however, you are entirely off the mark, IMO, when you say that "you can't blame everything on conditions."What is there to "you" or "me" or "Ken" other than conditions, physical and mental? Absolutely nothing!! ------------------------------------------------- Yes, the question for Alex to answer is, "If not conditions, then what? What is there other than conditioned dhammas?" ----------------------------------------- H: > Yes, because of the conditions being interrelated in specific, patterned ways, the distinctions we draw are possible. ----------------------------------------- This is where I get a bit pedantic. The distinctions (concepts) are ultimately illusory. To place any credence in them is to have atta-ditthi. I can hear Alex telling me to walk in front of a bus and see if it's got credence or not. :-) The distinctions we draw have nothing to do with satipatthana. They are not conditioned by paramattha dhammas. (The thinking dhammas that create them are conditioned, but the concepts aren't.) It's OK for you and me talk about buses and other concepts, but it's not OK to think the Buddha - the teacher of the Dhamma - was talking about them. (IMVHO). Ken H #105990 From: "scottduncan2" Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 scottduncan2 Dear Ken O, Regarding: KO: "Whether it is a mundane way or not, it does not matter, all development must start from mundane. Lets ascertain is this a method. All aims must be enlightment, Visud have examples of people develop the methods and attain enlightment. On that same paragraph, Visud VIII, 49. > <<'Do only this recitation for four months'. Although they were familiar respectively with two and three Pitakas, it was only at the end of four months of recitation of the meditation subject that they became stream-enterers, with the right apprehension [of the text]. So the teacher who expounds the meditation subject should tell the pupil to do the recitation verbally first>> Scott: Yes, all development must start from mundane. And all development is impersonal - no matter what. As there is no one to direct pa~n~naa, there is no one directing the other dhammaa which give rise to recitation. I'd suggest that the recitation and the memorization were methods of learning this particular aspect of the Dhamma - pariyatti. It also seems to have been in the context of samatha-bhaavanaa, which, as we know, doesn't cause 'enlightenment' in and of itself. Can you suggest the conditions which may have lead to the arising of the Path for this person? We read how, in the case described, that the Path arose at the end of four months recitation. Surely it is too concrete to equate the arising of the Path with four months of recitation and suggest that a method to cause the arising of the Path is to do this recitation for four months. Yes, a recitation as described is a 'method' but a 'method' for what? You say that the method is followed by enlightenment but does the method cause enlightenment? KO: "Definitely there is no magical method of learning, all development must start with panna be it samantha or vipassana. To think that one could just pick up a kasina object and mediate on it, it is not according the Visud. Whether it is a full meditation methods or not, it is written clearly in the text, there is no need for me to explain it. The text explains itself. That is why it is meant as path of purification, and not path of meditation and not path of vipassana. It meants to cover the different approaches to the one path." Scott: Can you suggest how pa~n~naa might play a role in the recitation 'method' described in Visuddhimagga? The text does not 'explain itself.' It is leading to our discussion, and I'm not clear on what this 'method' is supposed to mean to me reading it now. If it is something a certain person of certain abilities did then in the past, fine. I don't accept that 'the text explains itself' because that is what the sutta-only people say all the time and mean thereby that they read it and they know what it means and they are right. For one to say 'the text explains itself' is to court thinking that one has understood it exclusively. We are still dealing with ambiguity in the text and with differing interpretations. KO: "You, Joe Blow or me may not be able to do it, Visud is very clear on the criteria. It is described clearly and there are such people and not hypothetical. So there is no need to be hypothetical about it." Scott: Ken, I tried to tell you that in using the term 'hypothetical' I am referring to the sort of person we are using for argument's sake: not any actual person but an hypothetical one. I am not using 'hypothetical' to suggest there could be no such person. Stop telling me this! ;-) KO: "It depends on accumulations and panna. Some people could do that and attain enlightement after understanding such memorisation and that memorisation condition the growth of insight (as describe example above). As DSG always said, anything can be a condition for insight, why not memorisation. Why should there be an I in memorisation. I only happen when there is an atta view. There be faith or confidence in the Buddha during memorisation. Is it because we think that there must be a atta, that is your thinking and not the text. There is no need for me to prove it because the text has examples. The text proves itself and the text are consistent with suttas and other Abhidhamma texts." Scott: The problem is that people look for short-cuts and then settle concretely on these passages and go off and memorize and recite by rote. We don't have to discuss 'atta' do we? Or are we not in the same boat here? If you are saying that this is a 'method', then fine. If you are saying that this is a method whereby one can cause the arising of the Path, then we disagree. Sincerely, Scott. #105991 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Will, and ultimate vs conventional teaching. upasaka_howard Hi, Lukas (and Alex, and especially Nina) - In a message dated 3/15/2010 2:32:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, szmicio@... writes: > ----------------------------------------------------- > All that I am saying is that something occurs when and only when all > the requisite conditions for it have occurred. I leave the philosophical and > practical implications of that for you or others to consider. > ----------------------------------------------------- L: What's happend to you Howard??? When did you change your views ;>? ============================== I haven't. :-) While we are on this matter, I have a related question for Nina: Nina, I understand that in Abhidhamma there is a "support" category of conditionality. That is, while some conditions for a dhamma are requisite, others are "supportive". I would like to understand more about the meaning of 'supportive'. In what sense is a a condition supportive for another? I think this may be an important matter. With metta, Howard Seamless Interdependency /A change in anything is a change in everything/ (Anonymous) #105992 From: Kevin Farrell Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My siila issues farrellkevin80 Hi Lukas, Keeping sila is not easy at times. I've had periods where my sila has been very good and other times where it has not been so good. I think when one understands the benefits of practicing sila, there may be more of an inclination towards sila. Birth in the human and Divine realms comes from practicing sila. If one can keep the basic sila of five precepts, one guards oneself against all types of untold harm and even birth in the lower realms. Plus one becomes dear to the gods, and that is quite good. Without human and divine births how could one ever practice the Dhamma through hearing and reflecting on it, practicing generosity and so on? Kevin ________________________________ From: Lukas To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 2:56:13 AM Subject: [dsg] My siila issues Hi friends, My siila is very weak. But what can I do? For so many years I couldnt get perfect siila. I tried so much. But actually the only moments of siila I've got is when I read Dhamma, when I see you, that you have so good siila. I saw a guy who was beating his wife. And the only thing I thought was metta. I know this is so much conditioned. I could not say to him: stop beating your wife, cause he will only get anger. But he can learn from the very beginning the right understanding. understanding that all is conditioned. Best wishes Lukas #105993 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:39 am Subject: Re: Will, and ultimate vs conventional teaching. truth_aerator Dear Lukas, Nina, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Howard and Alex, > > L: Alex, you cannont budge your hand even for a slice. There needs >to be a proper conditions You cannot move your leg or finger or >anything. Of course, every thing is conditioned. But does this mean that the conditions are always fatalistic and a certain action (good or bad) is inevitable - no matter what one does? Is a person a killer, a rapist, a thief, only due to past causes? Or can a person at the last moment decide (also conditioned) that it is better not to pull a trigger and avoid killing? How do you distinguish this teaching on conditionality vs Inaction? How does what you interpret *on conditionality* different from fatalism? ""Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html The Buddha is totally rejecting the idea that one is killer...holder of wrong views, etc, because of what was done in the past. With metta, Alex #105994 From: Ken O Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Study and practice Dhp 19-20 ashkenn2k Dear Scott > >Scott: Yes, all development must start from mundane. And all development is impersonal - no matter what. As there is no one to direct pa~n~naa, there is no one directing the other dhammaa which give rise to recitation. I'd suggest that the recitation and the memorization were methods of learning this particular aspect of the Dhamma - pariyatti. It also seems to have been in the context of samatha-bhaavanaa, which, as we know, doesn't cause 'enlightenment' in and of itself. >Can you suggest the conditions which may have lead to the arising of the Path for this person? We read how, in the case described, that the Path arose at the end of four months recitation. Surely it is too concrete to equate the arising of the Path with four months of recitation and suggest that a method to cause the arising of the Path is to do this recitation for four months. Yes, a recitation as described is a 'method' but a 'method' for what? You say that the method is followed by enlightenment but does the method cause enlightenment? KO:??? Development is definitely impersonal, conditions.? There is no one to direct, but then panna arise due to accumulations, due to faith, due to sati, due to kusala?so it depends.? Cetana that?accompany panna will act,?so there is no person involved.??? Visud is the one contain these words that this method lead to enlightment..? Visud said this samantha bhavana, will be a basis of panna which and to enlightement see para 144, Visud VIII.. > >Scott: Can you suggest how pa~n~naa might play a role in the recitation 'method' described in Visuddhimagga? The text does not 'explain itself.' It is leading to our discussion, and I'm not clear on what this 'method' is supposed to mean to me reading it now. If it is something a certain person of certain abilities did then in the past, fine. KO:? I dont suggest anything,??the text speaks for itself.? There is no need to doubt the method and I have already explain that panna could arise with recitations as long as there is understanding of what is recited. >I don't accept that 'the text explains itself' because that is what the sutta-only people say all the time and mean thereby that they read it and they know what it means and they are right. For one to say 'the text explains itself' is to court thinking that one has understood it exclusively. We are still dealing with ambiguity in the text and with differing interpretations. KO:? Hmm, I always at peace with the text.??It is not ambiguious?because it?has been very consistent with the sutta and the Abhidhamma.? ?Until then, you have to find your acceptance of the text.???If you said that?there is differing interpretations,?please show which commentary that said differently from this text on this 32 parts.? thanks >Scott: Ken, I tried to tell you that in using the term 'hypothetical' I am referring to the sort of person we are using for argument's sake: not any actual person but an hypothetical one. I am not using 'hypothetical' to suggest there could be no such person. Stop telling me this! ;-) KO:??The text is?talking?about real people,?I?stick to real people.?:-) >Scott: The problem is that people look for short-cuts and then settle concretely on these passages and go off and memorize and recite by rote. We don't have to discuss 'atta' do we? Or are we not in the same boat here? If you are saying that this is a 'method', then fine. If you are saying that this is a method whereby one can cause the arising of the Path, then we disagree. KO:????Definitelhy not about atta.? Also?Defintely this method is not for everyone for arising of the path because each one?accumulations and panna is different.?? To think this could be done by any person who do not have the panna and accumulations, that is to me,??unwise and wrong practise.? Anyone who thinks they could just pick up a meditation subject without panna, will end up fustrated bacause it would not work.? All bhavana must have panna as the forerunner. I like to take an opportunity to say this.? In my personal opinion and no offense? meant, one of the greatest hurdle in DSG is that they presume too much.? When we talk about method, it must be atta or expectation or short cut??? And DSG keep putting their past experiences of their meditations?or other methods they used.???They forget these did not work for them because at that time, they do not have the panna for it and the necessary accumulations.??At that?time, they are not the person describe in Visud or have the necessary environment and teacher as describe in Visud.???? So lets not base on our own past experiences to judge what is written in Visud methods.? We should judge on? its consistency in the text and sutta.? Cheers Ken O #105995 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:10 am Subject: Conventional truth is truth too. truth_aerator Hello KenH, Nina, Howard, all, KenH, in your post you forget that Buddha has also taught conventionally and some people understand things better when it is presented conventionally... Even Abhidhamma pitaka is full of talk on puggalo and even in yamaka and puggalapanatti there is classification of PEOPLE. Is there any passage in canonical Abhidhamma that totally denies the validity of any kind of existence of people? If so, how can a book like Puggalapannati describe the difference between people, that you KenH, say do not exist at all? ========= Also one way of analysis is NOT superior to another, see Comy below: The commentary states: Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-katha, whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-katha. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-katha. One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-katha. To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-katha ,the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-katha, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-katha, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-katha. There is this simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-katha. It is by taking into consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena. AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55 http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf =========================================================== Different strokes for different folks. But in any case, one shouldn't fall into metaphysics (removed from current experience) to avoid developing understanding of what is actually happening now. I know, it is hard to observe without controlling. Some "control" the boredom (of simplicity of Buddha's teaching) by reading books, speculating on what exists and what does not, speculating about what happens within those trillions of minds appearing and disappearing within split second... "Simplicity is ultimate complication" , and is very hard for people who like ideas, to follow. With metta, Alex #105996 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Will, and ultimate vs conventional teaching. upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Lukas & Nina) - In a message dated 3/15/2010 12:39:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Lukas, Nina, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > Dear Howard and Alex, > > L: Alex, you cannont budge your hand even for a slice. There needs >to be a proper conditions You cannot move your leg or finger or >anything. Of course, every thing is conditioned. But does this mean that the conditions are always fatalistic and a certain action (good or bad) is inevitable - no matter what one does? Is a person a killer, a rapist, a thief, only due to past causes? Or can a person at the last moment decide (also conditioned) that it is better not to pull a trigger and avoid killing? ----------------------------------------------- Yes, of course that last-minute decision is possible (and even fairly common), but, as you correctly point out, it also is conditioned. ----------------------------------------------- How do you distinguish this teaching on conditionality vs Inaction? How does what you interpret *on conditionality* different from fatalism? ------------------------------------------------- Since you, yourself, accept that decisions are conditioned, the same question could be asked of you. ----------------------------------------------- ""Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those priests & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html The Buddha is totally rejecting the idea that one is killer...holder of wrong views, etc, because of what was done in the past. ------------------------------------------------- What I understand the Buddha to mean here is that what happens now to a person is not fully determined by that person's past actions alone; i.e., solely by his/her kamma. Of course, there is another, additional way in which this might be understood, namely that conditions do not determine events as certainties but determine probabilities. One scheme might be that for a phenomenon, D, of some precise sort to arise, there is a group of requisite conditions and many other contributory conditions that determine the *probability* of D's occurrence. If even one of the requisite conditions is missing, the probability of D arising is 0, but if all have occurred, the probability is positive. The contributory conditions, by their presence or absence, could then increase the probability further. Such a scheme is non-fatalistic but still makes sense out of dhammas being conditioned. However, I'm not aware of the Buddha ever explicitly discussing the matter of probability. So, however much such a scheme may have philosophical and mathematical appeal to some, I think a Buddhist should treat it with a degree of skepticism. ----------------------------------------------------- With metta, Alex ================================ With metta, Howard Conditionality /"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that."/ (From the Bodhi Sutta, Udana 1.1) #105997 From: "truth_aerator" Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Will, and ultimate vs conventional teaching. truth_aerator Hello Howard, all, >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Alex (and Lukas & Nina) - > > In a message dated 3/15/2010 12:39:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > Dear Lukas, Nina, all, > > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" wrote: > > > > Dear Howard and Alex, > > > > L: Alex, you cannont budge your hand even for a slice. There needs >to > be a proper conditions You cannot move your leg or finger or >anything. > > Of course, every thing is conditioned. But does this mean that the > conditions are always fatalistic and a certain action (good or bad) is inevitable > - no matter what one does? Is a person a killer, a rapist, a thief, only > due to past causes? Or can a person at the last moment decide (also > conditioned) that it is better not to pull a trigger and avoid killing? > ----------------------------------------------- >Yes, of course that last-minute decision is possible (and even >fairly common), but, as you correctly point out, it also is >conditioned. > ----------------------------------------------- Conditions can "set the stage", be supportive of something, but they do not have to 100% predetermine every reaction a person chooses. >A:How do you distinguish this teaching on conditionality vs >Inaction? How does what you interpret *on conditionality* different >from fatalism? > ------------------------------------------------- >H: Since you, yourself, accept that decisions are conditioned, the >same question could be asked of you. > ----------------------------------------------- Person can abstain at the last minute from bad actions, though it may be very difficult to do. Sure a person may be born in a poor circumstances where one has to kill to survive. But there is possibility that s/he will abstain from pulling the trigger. Person has a choice, limited, but still a choice. Even if ultimately everything, including all choices one makes, are fatalistically predetermined from inconceivable past - I think it is good to install a strategic belief that "evil can be abandoned, good can be developed, conditions can be set for wisdom to arise." Buddha really has condemned the fatalistic views of inaction (its kamma with fixed result) to believe in inaction. Thats ajivika and Makkhali Gosala's simplistic view of conditionality. So I don't think I am totally off-base here. IMHO. With metta, Alex #105998 From: "colette" Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:01 am Subject: Re: Conventional truth is truth too. ksheri3 Hi Alex, Humour me. I'm gonna have fun with your valid statement. When did the Buddha ever teach from a "position" of ULTIMATE TRUTH since that would mean that the buddha was not nor is not in his body THEREFORE making this delusion that the Buddha has spoken from ULTIMATE TRUTH, nothing more than the average, everyday, HALLUCINATION or Delusion of Grandeur. The only time that the Buddha ever spoke was from the position of "conventionality" or from that of the "RElative Truth". It would be rather imposing to say that the Buddha spoke from Ultimate Truth when that would be IMPOSSIBLE from a Theravadan POV. Meditation and altered states of consciousness, however, are a Mahayanan thing which the Theravdan does not partake of. Thus we get the easy equality of the Siddhus of the Hindus who smoke marijuana constantly, all day, every day, becomeing drug addicts and dependents upon the drug, since they are of the conception that smoking marijuana "constantly" is a way to achieve a constant state of supposed grace by being in contact, supposedly, with Shiva. The Theravadan spends 100% of their time in search of enlightenment through thousands of lifetimes without the cognition that they are becoming addicts and slaves to the drug, no? The drug is the doctrine, the drus is the teachings, etc., NO? It's exactly like those Southern Baptist Convention who REQUIRE that any member take the oathe of obedience that defines the only way to salvation is through the worship of Jesus of Nazereth as the savior i.e. the only way to achieve PEACE, to achieve ENLIGHTENMENT, is to formally put on a pedestal an icon and to enslave yourself to the icon's perpetuation. ;) toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" wrote: > > Hello KenH, Nina, Howard, all, > > KenH, in your post you forget that Buddha has also taught conventionally and some people understand things better when it is presented conventionally... Even Abhidhamma pitaka is full of talk on puggalo and even in yamaka and puggalapanatti there is classification of PEOPLE. > > Is there any passage in canonical Abhidhamma that totally denies the validity of any kind of existence of people? If so, how can a book like Puggalapannati describe the difference between people, that you KenH, say do not exist at all? > > > ========= > Also one way of analysis is NOT superior to another, see Comy below: > > The commentary states: > Herein references to living beings, gods, Brahma, etc., are sammuti-katha, whereas references to impermanence, suffering, egolessness, the aggregates of the empiric individuality, the spheres and elements of sense perception and mind-cognition, bases of mindfulness, right effort, etc., are paramattha-katha. > > One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of generally accepted conventions, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on sammuti-katha. > > One who is capable of understanding and penetrating to the truth and hoisting the flag of Arahantship when the teaching is set out in terms of ultimate categories, to him the Buddha preaches the doctrine based on paramattha-katha. > > To one who is capable of awakening to the truth through sammuti-katha ,the teaching is not presented on the basis of paramattha-katha, and conversely, to one who is capable of awakening to the truth through paramattha-katha, the teaching is not presented on the basis of sammuti-katha. > > There is this simile on this matter: Just as a teacher of the three Vedas who is capable of explaining their meaning in different dialects might teach his pupils, adopting the particular dialect, which each pupil understands, even so the Buddha preaches the doctrine adopting, according to the suitability of the occasion, either the sammuti- or the paramattha-katha. It is by taking into > consideration the ability of each individual to understand the Four Noble Truths, that the Buddha presents his teaching, either by way of sammuti, or by way of paramattha, or by way of both. Whatever the method adopted the purpose is the same, to show the way to Immortality through the analysis of mental and physical phenomena. AA. Vol. I, pp.54-55 http://kr.buddhism.org/~skb/down/papers/094.pdf > =========================================================== > Different strokes for different folks. > > > But in any case, one shouldn't fall into metaphysics (removed from current experience) to avoid developing understanding of what is actually happening now. > > I know, it is hard to observe without controlling. Some "control" the boredom (of simplicity of Buddha's teaching) by reading books, speculating on what exists and what does not, speculating about what happens within those trillions of minds appearing and disappearing within split second... > > > "Simplicity is ultimate complication" , and is very hard for people who like ideas, to follow. > > With metta, > > Alex > #105999 From: "Lukas" Date: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:08 pm Subject: Re: Will, and ultimate vs conventional teaching. szmicio Dear Alex, > > L: Alex, you cannont budge your hand even for a slice. There needs >to be a proper conditions You cannot move your leg or finger or >anything. > > Of course, every thing is conditioned. But does this mean that the conditions are always fatalistic and a certain action (good or bad) is inevitable - no matter what one does? Is a person a killer, a rapist, a thief, only due to past causes? Or can a person at the last moment decide (also conditioned) that it is better not to pull a trigger and avoid killing? L: those moments of decisions are all conditioned. That means they not arise because of will, they arise because of conditions. each dhamma is sapaccaya. Such moments of decision to not pull a triger can be kusala. > How do you distinguish this teaching on conditionality vs Inaction? L: I tell to myself: just thinking. you said inaction, but that is not so, understanding that all is conditioned is a cause to metta. because all is conditioned. > How does what you interpret *on conditionality* different from fatalism? L: What is fatalism? I am not saying fatalism I am saying the best way for kusala is to have more right understanding. Buddha spend a lot of time teaching 24 paccayas. Best wishes Lukas